Wednesday, March 31, 1993

1950 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 March 31,1993 10 12:50 p.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 SENATOR HUGH T. FARLEY, Acting President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 1951 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senate 3 will come to order. Senators will please find 4 their seats. 5 If you will please rise with me 6 for the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. 7 (Whereupon, the Senate joined in 8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. ) 9 Today, in the absence of clergy, 10 we will bow our heads for a moment of silent 11 prayer. 12 (Whereupon, there was a moment of 13 silence. ) 14 The Secretary will begin by 15 reading the Journal. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 18 Gold. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. I just got a 20 call that said that they didn't think the bells 21 are actually ringing in the LOB. If there's a 22 mechanical problem, that I don't know. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, 1952 1 that has been a problem. We've had it fixed. 2 As a matter of fact, it has been fixed for about 3 an hour. The communication system was broken 4 over on some of the floors, not all of them. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 7 Secretary will begin by reading the Journal. 8 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 9 Tuesday, March 30. The Senate met pursuant to 10 adjournment. Senator Farley in the chair upon 11 designation of the Temporary President. The 12 Journal of Monday, March 29, was read and 13 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hearing 15 no objection, the Journal will stand approved as 16 read. 17 The order of business: 18 Presentation of petitions. 19 Messages from the Assembly. 20 Messages from the Governor. 21 Reports of standing committees. 22 Reports of select committees. 23 Communications and reports from 1953 1 state officers. 2 Motions and resolutions. 3 We have a substitution. Is that 4 your pleasure? 5 The Secretary will read a 6 substitution. 7 THE SECRETARY: On page 6 of 8 today's calendar, Senator Wright moves to 9 discharge the Committee on Consumer Protection 10 from Assembly Bill Number 1959 and substitute it 11 for the identical Calendar Number 354. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 13 Substitution is ordered. 14 Are there any motions on the 15 floor? 16 (There was no response. ) 17 Senator Present, what is your 18 pleasure? 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 20 Let's go to the non-controversial calendar. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 22 Non-controversial. The Secretary will read. 23 THE SECRETARY: On page 11, 1954 1 Calendar Number 184, by Senator Marino, Senate 2 Bill Number 1892A, an act to authorize the city 3 of Glen Cove, county of Nassau, to discontinue 4 the use of and to sell certain park lands. 5 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 6 for the day. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay 8 that bill aside for the day. Continue on. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 314, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Bill Number 11 3513, an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, 12 in relation to veterans' exemption. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 14 the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 18 the roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That 22 bill is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 1955 1 329, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 2642, 2 an act to amend the Tax Law. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 4 the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 8 the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That 12 bill is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 337, Assembly Budget Bill, Assembly Bill Number 15 1350A. 16 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 17 temporarily. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay 19 that bill aside temporarily. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 360, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 3222, 22 an act to amend the County Law, in relation to 23 appointment, promotion, and retention of 1956 1 appointees of a county sheriff. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 4 aside. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 6 Present, what is your pleasure now? 7 SENATOR PRESENT: Let's go to the 8 controversial. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 10 Controversial. 11 (Whereupon, there was a pause in 12 the proceedings.) 13 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 14 Can we take up Calendar 360? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 360. 16 Controversial. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 360, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 3222, 19 an act to amend the County Law. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 21 Dollinger. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 23 President. If the sponsor would just yield to 1957 1 one question? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I'm 3 sure he will. 4 Senator Daly. 5 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, as I 7 understand this bill, this bill with respect to 8 Monroe County would permit the sheriff to 9 continue the practice that he has had in the 10 past of hiring and retaining and promoting 11 deputy sheriffs. Is that correct? 12 SENATOR DALY: Yes, it is, 13 Senator, as long as he is -- he must realize he 14 is subject to the state constitutional 15 requirement for merit and fitness. Yes, 16 correct. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So this would 18 permit him to continue that operation. It is 19 also my understanding, Senator, that the Monroe 20 County sheriff is in favor of this bill, 21 although there has been no bill memorandum and 22 support memorandum from him. Is that also 23 correct? 1958 1 SENATOR DALY: Yes, he is. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 4 the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 8 the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That 12 bill is passed. 13 Senator Present. 14 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 15 I think there will be times during the day when 16 I think I will ask that we stand at ease. This 17 is one of those times. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I'm 19 sure there will be times when we have to stand 20 at ease. The Senate will stand easy. 21 (Whereupon, the Senate was at 22 ease. ) 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 1959 1 Present. 2 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 3 Would you recognize Senator Kuhl, please. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I 5 recognize Senator Kuhl. 6 SENATOR KUHL: Mr. President. I 7 would like to announce a meeting of the Senate 8 Committee on Agriculture in the Senate Majority 9 Conference Room, Room 332, at 1:30 this 10 afternoon. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 12 Senate Agriculture Committee under the direction 13 of Senator Kuhl will be meeting in 332 at 1:30. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 15 Present, do we have any other? 16 SENATOR PRESENT: That's the only 17 announcement at this time. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We will 19 continued to stand at ease. 20 (Whereupon, at 1:02 p.m., the 21 Senate was at ease.) 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 23 Present. 1960 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you 2 recognize Senator Holland, please. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 4 Holland. 5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. There will be an immediate meeting 7 of the Social Services Committee of the Senate 8 in the Majority Conference Room. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 10 Committee on Social Services will be meeting in 11 the Majority Conference Room immediately. 12 (Whereupon, the Senate continued 13 at ease. ) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 1961 1 ....At 3:48 p.m..... 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 3 Present. 4 SENATOR PRESENT: I'd like to 5 announce that there will be an immediate -- no, 6 at four o'clock there will be a Finance 7 Committee meeting in Room 332. Following a 8 report from the Finance Committee, we will come 9 back here and go into session. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There 11 will be a meeting at four o'clock, which is in 12 12 minutes, in Room 332. Following the Finance 13 Committee meeting, there will be -- the Senate 14 will come back into session. 15 SENATOR PRESENT: Thank you. 16 (The Senate recessed from 3:48 17 p.m. to 4:31 p.m.) 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 19 Present. 20 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 21 can we return to reports of committees? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We 23 certainly may. The Secretary will read a report 1962 1 of a standing committee. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 3 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 4 following bill directly for third reading: 5 Senate Bill Number 651-A, Senate Budget Bill, an 6 act making appropriations for the support of 7 government and to amend the Legislative Law, in 8 relation to the appointment of Secretaries of 9 the Finance and Ways and Means Committees, and 10 certain committee resignations -- redesigna 11 tions, excuse me. 12 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 14 Present. 15 SENATOR PRESENT: May the bill 16 have its third reading now. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 18 bill will have its third reading now. The 19 Secretary will read the title. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 380, Senate Bill Number 651-A, an act making an 22 appropriation -- making appropriations for the 23 support of government. 1963 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I don't 3 think we'll read the last section. 4 Senator Leichter. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Mr. 6 President, I believe there's some amendments 7 that have been given to the desk. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There 9 are amendments, aren't there, Mr. Secretary? 10 Hold on just a minute. We're looking for the 11 amendments. 12 Senator Leichter, your amendments 13 are here. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, excuse 15 me. Just one second. 16 Mr. President, the first 17 amendment that we're going to bring up is an 18 amendment that I am sponsoring, and I'll waive 19 the reading and -- and - 20 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 22 Present. 23 SENATOR PRESENT: I understand 1964 1 copies of this amendment have not been served. 2 Can we hold that until they are served? 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, and I 4 apologize to you for that. 5 SENATOR PRESENT: And I accept 6 your apology. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 8 aside. Lay the amendment aside temporarily, Mr. 9 Secretary. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 11 President. Yes, yeah. Mr. President. We can 12 hold -- we can hold the amendments at this time 13 and we can go into -- once again, I have 14 occasion to thank the acting Majority Leader for 15 his courtesy and cooperation. I believe that 16 the amendment has now been properly served, and 17 I'd like to move the amendment. 18 I don't know how they're 19 identified, but it's an amendment that I am 20 making, relating to the legislative budget since 21 I think you have four amendments there. This is 22 amendment to - 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I 1965 1 thought we had three, but maybe you had four. 2 We identify it as the Leichter amendment. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: The Leichter 4 amendment. Fine, thank you. It's a good iden 5 ification for this amendment. This is the 6 amendment that calls for an itemized legislative 7 budget. I'm not going to spend much time on it 8 because we've -- we've done this a couple 9 times. We promised you, you're going to have a 10 chance to do it again. I think you know the 11 reasons for it. 12 It's very clear when we look at 13 this particular budget, the legislative budget, 14 that it says to the people of the state of New 15 York that the Legislature can do pretty much as 16 if damn pleases, and that the rules that apply 17 to other branches of government and to other 18 agencies don't apply to the Legislature. 19 We think it's wrong. We think 20 that we're dealing here with public money and 21 that the public has a right to know how its 22 money is going to be spent and that we have an 23 obligation as legislators when we vote on a 1966 1 budget to understand what the appropriations 2 are. 3 Now, nobody can maintain with a 4 straight face that this is an itemized budget, 5 as I understand it, as required by the legis... 6 by the Constitution, and certainly as is 7 required by good budgeting and proper 8 practices. 9 I wouldn't spend any time talking 10 about it, except I have the feeling that we'll 11 be -- that we're gaining some converts. It was 12 called to my attention that there was a bill 13 introduced by Senator DeFrancisco and Senator 14 Pataki and Senator Nozzoli', which actually 15 calls for an itemized budget pretty much along 16 the lines of my amendment and the bill that I 17 put in and have put in these many years, and 18 that we had a motion to discharge on and, in 19 fact, somebody would say that they have taken my 20 bill, which I'm delighted. I couldn't think of 21 better sponsors for it, and I'm delighted, if 22 anybody from the Majority would take the idea of 23 an itemized legislative budget and took it and 1967 1 saw that it actually became reality. 2 Now, the one difficulty I had 3 with that bill is that it calls for an itemized 4 budget beginning, I believe it's as of January 5 the 1st, 1995. I don't know why we need to wait 6 until January 1, 1995. Is it going to take two 7 years to put together an itemized budget? 8 Now, let me just say I hope 9 that's not a reflection on somebody -- what 10 somebody thinks of Steve Sloan and how quickly 11 he can put together an itemized budget. I've 12 always found that he works quickly and 13 efficiently, and I think that, if he was asked 14 to do it, he could come up with an itemized 15 budget in two days, not two years. 16 So I would say to my three 17 colleagues on the other side of the aisle that 18 they ought to join us now and say, We want an 19 itemized budget, and there's no reason or excuse 20 for delaying this. I don't think that anybody 21 should say, Well, I'm in favor of an itemized 22 budget some time in the future. If you want an 23 itemized budget, the time is now. There's no 1968 1 excuse for our not having an itemized budget at 2 this time, and my amendment requires that we 3 have an itemized budget not in 1995, not in 1994 4 -- now! Starting with the year 1993, fiscal 5 year 1993-1994. 6 So, Mr. President, I move the 7 amendment. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 9 amendment, all in favor say aye. 10 Yes, Senator Gold. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Will Senator 12 Stafford yield to a question? 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 15 Stafford. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, there are 17 people in the -- in the government who are 18 looking this year for some guidance as to what 19 to do in the future, and I'd like to ask the 20 questions because they're not here to ask them 21 and, as the chairman of the Finance Committee, I 22 know you can be of great help to them. 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: I've always 1969 1 tried to be a great help to anyone I could. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Well, if 3 next year the Motor Vehicle Department submits 4 its budget to the Legislature in the form that 5 we have submitted our budget in terms of the 6 lumping together of numbers, will that be 7 sufficient for the submission of their budget to 8 us? 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I'd have 10 to see exactly what they did. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. That's what 12 they're going to do, Senator. Their budget is 13 going to be as itemized or as lack of 14 itemization as we have in our budget this year. 15 Is that acceptable? 16 SENATOR STAFFORD: Of course, 17 they would not have the requirement that public 18 records be maintained. It would be -- you would 19 have to take every case on its merits and again 20 I'd have to see what they say. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Well, I'm telling 22 you what they say, Senator. Their budget - 23 well, let me ask you, if the Senator will yield 1970 1 to one other question. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 3 Stafford, would you yield to one other question? 4 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, you are 6 familiar with the Motor Vehicle Department 7 budget as it was submitted this year, isn't that 8 correct? 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I think 10 that any of us find that we have to spend a lot 11 of time on any of the budgets, that we want to 12 be fairly familiar. I have reviewed it. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Well, 14 Senator, you're familiar with it, your 15 committee, the committee you chair, which is 16 next to the Rules Committee, I guess the most 17 powerful committee we have, your committee - 18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, you and 19 I know - 20 SENATOR GOLD: -- took that 21 budget, and you held hearings on it and you're 22 familiar with the budget, aren't you? 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, first, I 1971 1 don't know whether you talk about any of us 2 being powerful, I think it's -- when you think 3 you're powerful, you get into difficulty. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, I 5 appreciate your making those comments, but I'm 6 going to stick with it if you don't mind. 7 Senator, you held hearings, did 8 you not, on the Motor Vehicle Department budget? 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: No, we did 10 not. 11 SENATOR GOLD: You did not. O.K. 12 What are some of the budgets that you held 13 hearings on, Senator? 14 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, now, 15 let's try -- I was going to say Environmental 16 Conservation, but we didn't, correct? Transpor 17 tation. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Well, let's take 19 Corrections. Are you familiar with the 20 Correction Department budget? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Now, 22 Senator Gold, I'm going to ask that you refer 23 your questions through the Chair. 1972 1 SENATOR GOLD: Your point is well 2 taken. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There 4 is not going to be a colloquy between the two of 5 you. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Point is well 7 taken, Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: You 9 don't have to yield any further. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 11 yield to a question? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 13 Stafford, are you willing to yield to another 14 question? 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yeah. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, you're 17 familiar with the Corrections Department budget 18 as it was submitted to the Legislature; is that 19 correct? 20 SENATOR STAFFORD: I've reviewed 21 the budget. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Asking on 23 behalf of the Commissioner, who is not here 1973 1 today. Did they overwork, I mean did they use 2 too many staff people; did they calculate their 3 numbers and break them down too much; would it 4 have been easier for the Legislature if their 5 budget was, let's say, 25 percent of the size 6 that they submitted it and less detailed as our 7 budget? Did they overdo it? 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: I don't think 9 they overdid it. I think it's really difficult 10 for anybody to read a budget. I might add it's 11 the Governor who submits it. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. We -- Mr. 13 President, I -- thank you. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 15 Gold. 16 SENATOR GOLD: You say it's the 17 Governor but, as you know, Senator, the 18 department prepares the budget, submits it to 19 the Executive. They probably do some 20 negotiation, and it comes up here. And my -- my 21 question, Senator is, has -- is that budget more 22 detailed than is required by law? 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: I don't think 1974 1 it's more detailed. 2 SENATOR GOLD: You don't think 3 so. You think that it is in -- when I say "more 4 detailed than required by law," what I'm saying 5 is, could that department have complied with 6 existing constitutional law and submitted a 7 budget which was, let's say, 50 percent of the 8 size or 25 percent of the size and much less 9 detailed? Could they have done that? 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: I'd have to 11 see when they submitted. I couldn't do that. 12 SENATOR GOLD: All right, Mr. 13 President. On the bill. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 15 bill, Senator Gold. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, on the 17 amendment, I'm sorry. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Well, 19 yes. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, Mr. 21 President. 22 I certainly appreciate skill. I 23 think Senator Marchi had extraordinary skill in 1975 1 not answering questions when he held that 2 position. I think Senator Stafford follows in a 3 fine tradition of Finance chairmen who will not 4 answer questions, and I don't blame him. I 5 mean, after all, a gentleman of Senator 6 Stafford's stature does not run for public 7 office to be embarrassed and, obviously, the 8 answers would be embarrassing, and the reason 9 they'd be embarrassing is very simple: 10 There is nobody in the executive 11 branch of government that is going out of its 12 way in order to go two and three and four times 13 further in the preparation of a budget document 14 than the law requires. They comply with the 15 law, and that is why there is that detail, and 16 the simple fact is that we do not comply with 17 the law and, without mentioning names, I 18 understand that there was a philosophical 19 discussion among members of the Majority last 20 night and a question whether certain tactics 21 should stay the same or be changed, and I guess 22 one of the positions that was raised is why 23 should we change it? We -- and I'm paraphrasing 1976 1 now -- we violate the law; we do this; we do 2 that, but it works. 3 The press either doesn't 4 understand it, which is my belief, or doesn't 5 care, which would be much too callous of me to 6 say, and they believe that an editorial here and 7 there once a year gives them religion, which it 8 obviously doesn't -- by the way, it's 9 interesting. Does anybody from New York City 10 who does not read the New York Times know that 11 there were things happening in Russia last week 12 end? You wouldn't know it from the New York 13 newspapers because the biggest thing that 14 happened in New York, according to the New York 15 newspapers, was Mia and Woody. Interesting! 16 And these are the people we're relying on to 17 help us get reform. 18 At any rate, maybe you're right. 19 Maybe the reason that, year after year, you get 20 away with the fact that you violate the 21 Constitution is because the press talks out of 22 both sides of its mouth. You get an editorial 23 here and there, but day in and day out they 1977 1 allow you to violate that Constitution. 2 Even so, we take an oath to 3 defend the Constitution, not to comply with what 4 the press will let us get away with and, if 5 we're going to comply with the Constitution, we 6 ought to tell the people what we are doing with 7 their money, and the first way to do that is to 8 support Senator Leichter's amendment and the 9 fight which he has so gallantly carried on all 10 of these years. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 12 amendment, all in favor say aye. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 14 President. 15 (Response of "Aye.") 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 17 Opposed, nay. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Oh, I'm 20 sorry. Senator Dollinger. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 22 Mr. President. 23 Just on the amendment, my views 1978 1 on the issue of itemized budget are probably 2 well known to my colleagues. I'll just add one 3 other little tidbit that maybe illustrates the 4 need for an itemized budget in this house. 5 Yesterday, unbeknownst to me, someone found in 6 the Government Operations portion of the budget 7 a $500,000 allocation for a LASER lab in the 8 city of Rochester. I didn't know it was there; 9 I guess maybe I should have done some more home 10 work but at least someone could find it, tell me 11 that it was there, and tell me that that might 12 be a reason I should support the budget. 13 I guess someone else -- and I've 14 read a newspaper account that someone went 15 through and found out that the Boy and Girl 16 Scouts in Nassau County are also going to get 17 money out of that budget, because there was a 18 line item in this that said that they would get 19 money in the budget. 20 It seems to me that at least we 21 have the specificity in other budgets that we 22 lack in this one, and I'd just point out to my 23 colleagues that, before we cast any stones at 1979 1 anyone else in this government about how we 2 spend money, about how we close facilities, 3 about how we do all the things that are going to 4 happen in this budget process, that before we 5 cast any of those stones, we should look in our 6 own house and find that we don't even have any 7 pebbles; we don't have any -- any of the 8 weapons, anything to throw because we haven't 9 itemized our own budget, and I think it's a task 10 that, as we look to the rest of this budget, we 11 can't even itemize our own and find out where 12 the money goes, how it's used on a line item 13 basis. 14 We're -- if what we're doing by 15 passing this legislative budget is setting a 16 standard for how we're going to deal with the 17 rest of the budgeting in this state, my 18 colleagues, I'm afraid we're falling far short 19 of any reasonable accounting principle or any 20 reasonable budget principle, and it seems to me 21 that we lose our credibility in pursuing the 22 budget process further by not holding ourselves 23 to a higher standard. 1980 1 I'm in favor of the amendment, 2 Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 4 amendment. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Party vote in the 6 affirmative. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Party 8 vote. Call the roll on a party vote. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 26, nays 35, 11 party vote. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 13 amendment is not accepted. 14 Senator Halperin. 15 SENATOR HALPERIN: Mr. 16 President. Yes, there should be an amendment at 17 the desk that I have introduced. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: It's my 19 understanding there is an amendment here at the 20 desk. 21 SENATOR HALPERIN: I waive its 22 reading and will explain it and, once again, 23 since Senator Leichter was so brief in his 1981 1 explanation, I somehow feel compelled to be 2 brief in mine not because this is not an 3 extraordinarily important issue but because we 4 have been through it before and, unfortunately, 5 we have not been successful with promoting the 6 idea of quarterly reports. 7 As I've indicated in the past, 8 it's not a novel idea and, in fact, it's sort of 9 the next step after having a -- an itemized 10 budget that we should know how we're actually 11 expending the monies that we have appropriated, 12 but even if we don't have the degree of 13 specificity that we ought to have in an itemized 14 budget, at the very least we should have the 15 ability to determine after the fact how money 16 has been spent, and that's the very purpose of 17 this particular amendment. 18 Now, the idea, as I indicated, is 19 not a unique idea. I hold in my hand a book of 20 some several thousand pages, I believe. They're 21 very detailed explanations of how members of the 22 United States Senate have expended the public 23 monies that have been given over to them, and 1982 1 you can actually look in this book and find out 2 to such a degree, which by the way my amendment 3 would not even require, repairs to printers on 4 different dates, one costing $65 or $95, or you 5 can get individual vouchers for travel. All of 6 this is listed on a quarterly basis in this 7 report of the Secretary of the Senate. 8 Don't worry, Mr. Sloan, this is 9 the Secretary of a different Senate, but it 10 would be nice if you wouldn't have to be quite 11 as big as this, but it would be nice if the 12 Senate of the state of New York had a similar 13 report. 14 Now, not only is this done by our 15 national legislature -- and, by the way, I would 16 point out that the House of Representatives has 17 a similar disclosure requirement -- but there 18 are other states in this country that have 19 reports that really get to be a lot more 20 specific than what we have -- where we have 21 nothing specific at all, and I hold in my hand 22 the Wisconsin State Senate Fiscal Year 1993 23 Monthly Expenditure Report. So they not only 1983 1 report on a quarterly basis, they do it on a 2 monthly basis. 3 Similarly, the House of 4 Representatives of Georgia has a report done on 5 a quarterly basis. It does not have the same 6 degree of specificity as does the Congressional 7 reports, but it certainly gives the public an 8 opportunity to understand a lot more how their 9 money is being spent. 10 So we're not coming up with any 11 radical ideas here. New York is really supposed 12 to be a leader. I believe that our Legislature 13 probably spends more than most, if not all 14 legislatures in this country, and that's not 15 necessarily bad, but people should understand 16 how we're spending that money and whether 17 they're getting their money's worth. They're 18 not going to know that if the existing 19 circumstances continue where people just really 20 have very little access to the ways in which we 21 spend our money. 22 So I am once again offering this 23 amendment. I would hope that this particular 1984 1 time the members of this house would see the 2 wisdom of it. I know that we seem to be getting 3 some positive responses from members on the 4 other side of the aisle, but these positive 5 responses are usually accompanied by an excuse 6 as to why we can't vote for this at this time, 7 and so on, if it's not a bill; it's only an 8 amendment. It's only a motion to discharge. 9 I think the time is now to vote 10 for this. I -- I'm quite certain that, if the 11 budget were to be amended to include this 12 proposal, that the Governor would provide a 13 message of necessity so that we could pass this 14 budget by the end of the day and we could do it 15 in a way that we could all be more proud of. 16 So I urge that all the members of 17 this house join with me in voting for this 18 particular amendment. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 20 amendment. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Party vote in the 22 affirmative. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Party 1985 1 vote. Call the roll on party vote. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 26, nays 35, 4 party vote. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 6 amendment is not accepted. 7 SENATOR JONES: Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 9 Jones. 10 SENATOR JONES: Yes, Mr. 11 President. I believe you have another amendment 12 up there. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, we 14 do, Senator Jones. 15 SENATOR JONES: O.K. I will be as 16 brief as my colleagues. In fact, mine is very 17 simple and very brief. It deals, as you well 18 know, with mailings, and two questions are 19 answered, how many and when, and I read a quote 20 today in the Syracuse Herald-Journal where I was 21 happy to note that the Republican Senate is 22 looking at this because "they feel that this is 23 just nothing but a distraction." And I agree. 1986 1 That's why I think it is just so 2 simple that we put it into law, and that takes 3 away the option of anyone out there, for us to 4 criticize each other, for the press to criticize 5 us or any of the citizen groups that have grown 6 up in the past few years that are running around 7 trying to count pieces of mail. 8 I personally would have a much 9 higher level of comfort if I knew it's in the 10 law. I can send out my newsletter and inform my 11 constituents just as it's meant to do because 12 there's very important things going on around 13 here we want the public to know, but I would 14 personally have a much higher level of comfort 15 around this if I knew how many I had, that I was 16 sending them out, did not have to be concerned 17 about what people thought about that. I could 18 run for reelection and not have anyone saying I 19 did something wrong or something illegal. 20 This mailing is a good tool. We 21 need the tool, but we just need to put it down 22 in black and white what we're doing with it and 23 that, I think, will relieve all of us of being 1987 1 concerned about this and certainly take away the 2 distraction, because I agree it is. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 4 amendment. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Party vote in the 6 affirmative. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Party 8 vote. Call the roll on party vote. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 26, nays 35, 11 party vote. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 13 amendment is not accepted. 14 Senator Dollinger. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 16 President, I believe there's also another 17 amendment in front of the -- up at the podium 18 that deals with the Freedom of Information Act 19 and its applicability to the budget. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, 21 there is, Senator Dollinger. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the 23 amendment, Mr. President. 1988 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 2 amendment, Senator Dollinger. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: This will 4 probably also sound like the old broken record 5 that my colleague from Monroe County has men 6 tioned which seems to have that little annoying 7 skip in it, and keeps repeating the same thing 8 again and again and again. 9 Let me give it a new twist, an 10 Oliver Twist. I guess I feel a little bit like 11 I'm working the work of the "artful dodger" 12 poised at the pocket of the taxpayer just about 13 to put his little fingers into the taxpayers' 14 back pocket and just about to lift the $170 15 million out of his wallet and all the while when 16 someone turns and and says, "What are you doing 17 there," the answer is, "Oh, I'm just taking your 18 money but I'm not going to tell you what I'm 19 going to go do with it." 20 It seems to me that the Freedom 21 of Information Act is designed to tell the 22 artful dodgers of the world that you just can't 23 take the taxpayers' money, walk away with it and 1989 1 not account to them and tell them what it is 2 you're going to spend it on, whether it be mail, 3 whether it be staff, whether it be personnel and 4 committees and commissions and all the other 5 things that are included in the lump sums in 6 this very ambiguous budget document. 7 My suggestion is that the 8 taxpayers of this state can no longer tolerate 9 the "artful dodger" approach to spending their 10 money. Put the "artful dodger" back in the 19th 11 Century where he belongs. Give him a nice 12 Dickensonian funeral, and open up the gates, 13 open up, turn some light on in this government. 14 Let's set a model for everyone in state 15 government by letting the Freedom of Information 16 Act apply to this body and this Legislature and 17 consign the "artful dodger" theory of taxing 18 people and not telling them how you spend their 19 money to the 19th Century where it belongs. 20 In favor of the amendment, Mr. 21 President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 23 amendment. 1990 1 SENATOR GOLD: Party vote in the 2 affirmative. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Party 4 vote in the affirmative. 5 SENATOR PRESENT: Party vote in 6 the negative. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Party 8 vote in the negative. Call the roll on a party 9 vote. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 26, nays 35, 12 party vote. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 14 amendment is not accepted. 15 Senator Leichter. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 17 President, on the bill. I wonder if Senator 18 Stafford would be so kind as to yield. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 20 Stafford, would you yield? 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, am I 22 correct that the appropriations for the Senate 23 for the year 1993-1994 begin on line 12 and 1991 1 extend to the bottom of page 4; they begin on 2 page 2, line 12, and extend to the bottom of 3 page 4, line 46; is that correct? 4 SENATOR STAFFORD: What page is 5 it? 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: We look at 7 page 2 and we see line 11 says "the Senate" and 8 then the text begins on line 12 - 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: I got it. I 10 got it. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- and 12 continues for the rest of that page, and then we 13 have page 3 and it continues all the way to the 14 bottom of page 4 which, on line 46, has a final 15 figure. Is that correct? 16 SENATOR STAFFORD: It appears to 17 be the situation, yes. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Right. And 19 within those pages of -- roughly two and a half 20 pages, an appropriation of $62,845,000 -- I'm 21 sorry, let me state that again, $62,845,094 is 22 dealt with; is that correct? 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: That's right. 1992 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: And, Senator, 2 as I take a look at the general language on page 3 2 beginning on line 12, and I want to read some 4 of the language, it says: The Temporary 5 President of the Senate or his designate may 6 authorize expenditures to be made from 7 appropriations or reappropriations herein made 8 to the Senate Finance Committee or to the 9 allocable portion of an appropriation or 10 reappropriation so made to a legislative 11 counsel, commission or task force. 12 Am I right in understanding that 13 that gives the Temporary President the power to 14 allocate so much of that $62 million as Mr. - 15 Mr. President. 16 SENATOR STAFFORD: We try to - 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Let me just 18 finish my question. -- the Finance Committee as 19 well as to other commissions and councils, is 20 that correct? 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Would you ask 22 the question again, please? 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: All right. 1993 1 That -- that language I read gives the Temporary 2 President the unfettered power, the discretion, 3 to allocate money as he desires between 4 commissions, councils, as well as the Finance 5 Committee? 6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President, 7 I would just point out to my colleague, who is 8 also a part-time constituent of mine, that - 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Happily so. 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: -- that he and 11 I have been here in the Legislature a while, and 12 I would point out that you get people elected 13 from various Senate Districts, various Assembly 14 Districts and part of what -- by the way, what 15 you're saying is true for the Speaker too, Mr. 16 President, and I would just point out that when 17 you have a group of people like this that are 18 really individually elected, hold office, you 19 have to have a situation where you have a 20 leader, and that's what you do, you elect a 21 leader, and your leader has to make many 22 decisions. 23 I will point out to you, Senator, 1994 1 that, of course, things change -- change. When 2 I first came to the Senate, I didn't like the 3 seniority system. It's interesting how my 4 attitude has changed through the years, and you 5 have to have a system whereby you have a leader, 6 and decisions are made. 7 Now, I would point this out, but 8 we're different than most people, you included, 9 all of us. We get elected. Then we elect a 10 leader. We have to respond to the people. The 11 leader has to respond to us. I think there is 12 an accountability, and I think there has to be 13 flexibility when you have either 61 Senators or 14 150 Assemblymen. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 16 take it, then, the answer to my question is yes 17 and that you explain it on the basis of -- that 18 democracy can't really function and work in a 19 legislative body such as this, but that we need 20 an autocracy, somebody with the divine right of 21 leadership. 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 1995 1 Stafford. 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: This is why, 3 very often, Senator Leichter and myself differ, 4 even when we're at the Essex County Fair, when 5 he's bringing his vegetables. He hasn't got 6 into animals yet. And I shared with him what I 7 thought was a definition of democracy and I, 8 frankly, think it is, so obviously we disagree 9 on what that means. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, is it 11 your definition of democracy that a legislative 12 leader, granted who's elected by his fellow 13 legislators, should be given the power to 14 allocate $62 million as he wishes without there 15 being any explanation in the budget, any guide, 16 any standard as to how that allocation is to be 17 made or, after the allocation is made, that 18 there is to be any public accounting or release 19 of information which sets forth the basis of the 20 allocation; is that your definition of 21 democracy? 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, once 23 again, your -- the length of your questions 1996 1 sometimes confuses me, and I would only say 2 again that, if we're going to have an effective 3 government, we have to have a leader. He or she 4 has to make the decisions and, as far as 5 accountability, why, there are public records 6 obviously in the Legislature and there are 7 public records in the Comptroller's office. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator, 9 talking about public records, if we could just 10 focus on that for a moment, if you would be kind 11 enough to continue to yield. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 13 Stafford, do you wish to continue to yield? 14 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: He 16 continues to yield. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Could 18 you define what public records there are which 19 would allow me to determine how many mailings 20 were sent out by the Senate Republicans, how 21 many newsletters each member of the Majority 22 sent out - 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Everything - 1997 1 publishing isn't, you know, specified. As far 2 as mailings, I think we've had many, many 3 discussions on that. 4 I find it very interesting. We 5 seem to talk about mailings being so secret. 6 How can they be secret when they go out? That's 7 what I haven't figured out? I don't send 8 mailings myself, not many. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. -- Senator 10 Stafford, if I live in Manhattan as I do, I 11 don't get the mailings from Senator Tully or 12 from Senator Goodman. Do I have, under your 13 view of democracy, do I have a right to know how 14 many mailings are sent out by Senator Tully? 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, you don't 16 want to know what I would do. Well, excuse me. 17 My definition of democracy is obviously 18 different than yours but, you know very well, 19 when you want to talk practically here, you want 20 to talk sense, which I try to do, you know that 21 you can find out any mailing that goes out 22 anywhere. In fact, I'll bring you a very 23 interesting mailing I got last fall, if you want 1998 1 to talk about mailings. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, could 3 you tell me how I can find out the number of 4 mailings and the amount that was spent by 5 Senator Tully and by Senator Goodman in the year 6 1992? Could you tell me that information? 7 SENATOR STAFFORD: If there are 8 two individuals - 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Let me just 10 finish, Senator. If I could just finish. 11 Excuse me. 12 Is that information available 13 and, if so, would you tell me where I can get 14 that information? 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, if there 16 are two individual Senators that can take care 17 of themselves, it's Senator Tully and Senator 18 Goodman. I suggest you ask them. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 20 think we're dealing here with a budget. I think 21 when we have a budget, you don't say to people, 22 Well, if you want to find out how much is being 23 spent by the Department of Social Services, go 1999 1 ask the Commissioner, if you can find the 2 Commissioner, if the Commissioner is willing to 3 answer. 4 I'm asking you, under your 5 definition of democracy, do I, as a member of 6 this body, have a right to know the allocations 7 for mailings of other members of this body and, 8 specifically, if I'm interested, as I am, in 9 Senator Tully's mailings and Senator Goodman's 10 mailings. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 12 Leichter, I've been very patient, and this 13 conversation that is going on between you and 14 Senator Stafford is -- is very interesting, but 15 unfortunately, you're supposed to address the 16 questions through the Chair, and Senator 17 Stafford has been very patient in trying to 18 answer all of these questions, and, Senator 19 Stafford, do you care to yield to that question? 20 SENATOR STAFFORD: Would you ask 21 the question again, please? 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, sure. 23 I'm sorry, Mr. President, and then I will direct 2000 1 it through you. 2 The question I'm addressing to 3 Senator Stafford is, can I find out the mailings 4 of individual members and, if so, where can I 5 find -- get that information? 6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Listen. Mr. 7 President, I know that Senator Leichter is a 8 good lawyer. Where did you go to law school? 9 Where did you go to law school? 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: What? 11 Harvard. 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: He went to 13 Harvard. He really understands the practice of 14 law. Do you know that it would be entirely in 15 error and in poor taste now for me to be talking 16 about something that I believe is being 17 adjudicated? 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I - 19 well -- I -- I'm sort of non-plused by your 20 answer because I don't know what in the 21 litigation possibly prevents you in discussing 22 the budget for the year 1993-1994 and how much 23 information is disclosed, from revealing if, 2001 1 indeed, that information is available how many 2 mailings individual members sent out and how 3 many mailings were, for that matter, sent out in 4 the year 1992 if we want to make a comparison. 5 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, you're 6 asking about other legislators now. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Fine. If you 8 -- if you want me to, I believe the lawsuit 9 refers to Senator Tully, right? Let's talk 10 about -- let's talk about Senator Goodman. 11 SENATOR STAFFORD: Go ahead. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Can I find out 13 -- Senator, under your definition of the - 14 under your definition of democracy, can I find 15 out the mailings that were sent out by Senator 16 Goodman and what the total cost was for those 17 mailings? 18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Senator, in 19 our system, you know it and I know it, we are 20 responsible, we have to make sure that we're 21 responsible to the people. We conduct our 22 majority, we conduct our majority and exactly 23 what's available and what each person does or 2002 1 does not do isn't specified in many areas. 2 Now, I understand exactly what 3 you are concerned about, and I suggest that in a 4 legislative budget, again, we have a majority. 5 We have the minority. There are many areas 6 where there's documentation and really, really 7 as far as mailings, as I've said, I don't think 8 anyone would have any difficulty finding out, 9 you know, what mailings go out. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator, 11 I think you and I both know that indeed the in 12 formation that I request is not available. It's 13 for that very reason that there's a lawsuit and 14 it's the refusal of the Majority to make that 15 information available which has created the 16 lawsuit, created the bad publicity for the 17 Senate and particularly for the -- for the 18 Majority, and I think you will have to concede 19 that it is not possible, not only for a 20 non-member but even for a member of the Senate 21 to get that information. 22 Indeed, if a Senate -- if a 23 Senator wanted to know the cost of the mailings 2003 1 that that Senator sent out, he'd be unable to 2 get that information; isn't that a fact? 3 SENATOR STAFFORD: Not 4 necessarily. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Not 6 necessarily. Senator, we had an example here, 7 Senator Hoffmann said that she asked for 8 information and she was refused that 9 information. 10 Senator, let me ask you -- we'll 11 get away from mailing. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 13 Stafford, would you yield to another question, I 14 presume? 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you. 17 You continue to yield, Senator. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, 19 he's agreed to yield. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: I appreciate 21 that, good. Could you tell us -- could you tell 22 us, Senator, whether it's -- in this appropria 23 tion that we're talking about there are any 2004 1 contracts to be entered into with outside 2 consultants? 3 SENATOR STAFFORD: I think 4 through the year there often are contracts. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Could you tell 6 us the amount that is to be spent on that in 7 comparison to the amount that was spent in the 8 year 1992-1993? 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: De minimus. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I - 11 I don't know what de minimus means. It means a 12 lot of different things to people. 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Very small, 14 very small. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, "very 16 small" in a $62 million budget may be 3 or 4 or 17 $5 million. Can you tell us the exact figure? 18 SENATOR STAFFORD: No, it's very 19 small. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 21 think that's hardly a figure. Are you 22 suggesting, Senator, that we -- that we budget 23 and that we have budget bills that instead of 2005 1 giving figures, we use big amounts, small 2 amounts, modest amounts; we're appropriating 3 modest amounts, de minimus amounts? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 5 Leichter, again, you know, we keep slipping into 6 this cross-examination and -- that you are 7 directing at this conversation between you and 8 Senator Stafford. It is beyond the rules of the 9 Senate and it is -- I'm trying to be as patient 10 with you as I can, and Senator Stafford has been 11 very patient but, again, I'm going to ask you 12 that you direct specific questions through the 13 Chair. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you. 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: The number of 16 contracts, it appears, would be two small 17 contracts that are on file. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: And what is 19 the amounts of those? 20 SENATOR STAFFORD: I can get you 21 the amounts of those. I'll get you those 22 amounts. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. Can you 2006 1 tell me, Senator, how much is being appropriated 2 here for furniture? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 4 Stafford, do you care to yield? 5 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, again, 6 you know, for these very specific items I'm sure 7 the Senator could get that information. I don't 8 have that exact information. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 10 does Senator Stafford continue to yield? Would 11 the Senator be so good as to advise me where one 12 can get that information? 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I would 14 say -- I would say actually, I would start at 15 the various offices, the Comptroller's office, 16 the offices here in the Senate. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 18 if Senator Stafford will continue to yield. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 20 Stafford, I presume you're going to yield. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Would you 22 suggest that after I start with the 23 Comptroller's office, I go to the offices of the 2007 1 61 members and ask each of them - 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: I didn't say 3 that, no. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, can I 5 go to the Secretary of the Senate and ask the 6 Secretary how much is being spent on furniture? 7 SENATOR STAFFORD: I think we 8 probably -- if we wanted to get that 9 information, I think we could get it. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 11 if Senator Stafford will continue to yield. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 13 Stafford, would you yield for another question? 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm trying to 15 analyze your question. You said "if we wanted 16 to". I don't know who "we" is. I want to get 17 the information. If I go to the Secretary of 18 the Senate and say, Please tell me how much is 19 being appropriated for furniture in this budget 20 of $62 million, can I get that information? 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, first, 22 you say you don't know who "we" is. That's 23 myself, you, and our colleagues; you understand 2008 1 that? 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Now -- now I 3 do. 4 SENATOR STAFFORD: And I'm saying 5 if you wanted to get the information you needed, 6 there are offices we could get that 7 information. I'll be glad to take you there. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm sorry. I 9 didn't catch your last words. 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: I said that, 11 if you are serious and need this information, 12 I'm sure I can take you to where we can find 13 it. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: All right. 15 Mr. President, if Senator Stafford will continue 16 to yield. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 18 Stafford. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: But as 20 chairman of Finance at this moment, when we're 21 asked to vote on the bill, you can't give me the 22 information or tell me exactly where I can get 23 it; is that correct? 2009 1 SENATOR STAFFORD: You know, Mr. 2 President, you know, this is really -- I suppose 3 people are frustrated for various reasons, but 4 obviously we have to depend on our staff; we 5 have to depend on the people who work for us. 6 Nobody's able to have the ability to stand up 7 and say exactly, Here's what we're purchasing, 8 here's what we did here. 9 I would say again, and I 10 certainly have all due regard for Senator 11 Leichter, I point out to him that we have the 12 debate usually at the end of the session, on a 13 certain subject every year, but all of this 14 information is available, and we can get any 15 specifics that we want to get from our 16 colleagues and staff, and I assure you I would 17 get any information that he needed. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I - 19 if Senator Stafford will continue to yield one 20 or two more questions, please. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 22 Stafford, will you continue to yield? 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means. 2010 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, can 2 you tell me how much is allocated to each of the 3 standing committees of the Senate? 4 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, each - 5 each year it varies, Mr. President, and again, I 6 don't apologize and never have for having a 7 situation where you elect a leader. When the 8 leader has to make many decisions, many would 9 think that we should be able to come here to 10 Albany and, 61 Senators, do what he or she want 11 to do. If we did that, we'd be like certain 12 other bodies, the one which was referred to 13 earlier today, but again we do have a situation 14 where the leader, together with the chairman of 15 the committee, work out those details and it's 16 done in a way that we get things done, and I 17 would suggest that the other house here in our 18 New York State Legislature is not that much 19 different. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 21 if Senator Stafford will continue to yield. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 23 Leichter. 2011 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, no 2 one on this side of the aisle is in any way 3 defending practices that we consider wrong in 4 the Senate if they're being also done by the 5 Assembly, and they are, and we're as critical of 6 the Assembly which is run by Democrats as we are 7 of the Senate which is run by Republicans. 8 It is our position that we have a 9 right to know certain information on the budget 10 that we're being asked to vote on, and I'm 11 trying to see whether that information is 12 available to us before we are asked to vote an 13 appropriation of $62 million. 14 How can we determine the validity 15 of this appropriation, if you or anyone else who 16 wishes to explain this bill or stand up and 17 defend this bill cannot answer questions of 18 where that money is going for? 19 Let me ask you, we can't find out 20 information about contracts. We can't find out 21 the amounts for furniture. Let me ask you about 22 employ... and we can't find out what allocations 23 are being made to committees. Senator, can you 2012 1 tell us the salary schedule for members employed 2 by the Majority; is that set forth anywhere? 3 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, again, 4 Senator, you have been here a number of years. 5 I believe you served in the Assembly also, and I 6 think that you know that every employee and his 7 or her records are public. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, how 9 many employees are scheduled to be hired by the 10 Majority under this appropriation? 11 SENATOR STAFFORD: That's, once 12 again, as I go back, what I explained earlier, 13 you know, we could have a situation where we all 14 did what we wanted, what he or she wanted to do 15 but once again, you know, that goes back to the 16 question earlier, that is determined working 17 with the Senator, with the chairman and the 18 leader's office. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah, Mr. 20 President, on the bill. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 22 bill. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: First, I want 2013 1 to thank my good friend and my -- he's not only 2 my summer Senator, because I occasionally also 3 go up to a wonderful vacation home that I'm 4 fortunate to have in Essex County during winter 5 time and he's always most courteous, most 6 cordial, most helpful, and I appreciate that 7 he's stood up on the floor. It's not a -- I 8 think a task that anybody would happily do 9 because the fact of the matter is that Senator 10 Stafford -- and he's a terrific chairman of 11 Finance, but he labors under the same disability 12 that everybody in this house, which is that 13 we're being asked to vote on an appropriation 14 for the Senate of $62 million, and we're asked 15 to vote an appropriation of the Assembly for $75 16 million, and we're being asked to vote for some 17 other appropriations, joint Senate/Assembly 18 appropriations; then we're being asked to vote 19 for reappropriations for various legislative 20 commissions. Total bill that the public has to 21 pay of about $167 million, and I submit that the 22 basic principle of democracy and proper 23 government, Senator Stafford, is that you have 2014 1 to understand what you're voting for. But if 2 you can't get the information, if every question 3 that you ask about how is money being spent is 4 met with, "Well, why don't you ask the 5 Comptroller," and "I'll try to find out some 6 office where you can get that information," and 7 "Well, Senator Tully's people know how much 8 mail he sends out," Senator, I submit that does 9 not give us as members the information that we 10 need to cast intelligent votes. 11 Now, in part you and I went 12 through a charade, and we went through that 13 charade with Senator Tarky Lombardi when he was 14 the chairman and Senator Marchi when he was the 15 chairman, because you and I know what we're 16 talking about and every member here knows what 17 we're talking about, even those good new members 18 who joined us for the first time in January of 19 this year who are in their first term, that we 20 have a budget that's a fraud. It's a disgrace. 21 To appropriate this amount of money and not to 22 itemize, to -- in two and a half pages for the 23 Senate, to dispose of 68 million or $62 million 2015 1 without any itemization or only the broadest 2 categories, 3,000 -- three and a half million 3 dollars for mailings, which interestingly is the 4 same amount every year and as we've shown and 5 it's not been refuted, you hoard that money in 6 non-election years and then in election years, 7 suddenly the spigot on mailings for Republican 8 incumbents opens and, if I'm wrong, all that you 9 have to do is, Steve Sloan tomorrow can come to 10 me and say "Leichter, look, here's what we did. 11 You were wrong." 12 I'll get up on this floor; I 13 won't do it in Macy's window, but on this floor 14 I'll apologize. I'll say, "Gee, that 15 information was available and it was supplied." 16 Instead, what do we get when we come out with 17 these figures? We get statements by Mr. McArdle, 18 and so on, "Oh, these guys are all wrong." 19 Well, if we're all wrong, open up 20 the books. But the first thing you have to do 21 is, before you ask us to vote on this sort of a 22 budget, before any of you vote on this sort of a 23 budget, you have to disclose how the money is 2016 1 being spent, and there's absolutely nothing as 2 far as the proper working of the legislative 3 body, which requires that you give to one person 4 this unfettered discretion and power to move 5 monies around, to spend money as he or she 6 wishes. 7 In fact, if you take a look what 8 other legislative bodies do, our staff here did 9 a very interesting comparison. The New York 10 State Legislature appropriates per page 11 $4,839,000. We can appropriate that on one 12 page. In fact, it seems to me that that figure 13 is low, but let's accept that figure. 14 In comparison, the Buffalo City 15 Council, they need -- they need one page just to 16 appropriate $92,000. That takes a full page. 17 The Erie City Council, they need a full page for 18 $268,000. Nassau County Board, it takes them 19 one page of a budget bill to appropriate some 20 $464,000, and so it goes on. 21 It's only the New York State 22 Legislature that has these broad lump sum 23 categorizations, this power to the Majority 2017 1 Leader, or in the Assembly to the Speaker and 2 let me say, while we're critical of the 3 Assembly, at least the Assembly is now disclos 4 ing information about mailings and that's an 5 important step forward. 6 Let me -- let me say that, and it 7 was well expressed earlier by Senator Gold, your 8 attitude is, Listen, we can proceed with this 9 undemocratic procedure. We can violate every 10 form of good budgeting because we can get away 11 with it. Don't tell us to do something that's 12 right if we can get away with it. I don't think 13 there's a single member here, and I know you all 14 and I've respect for you all, and you're all 15 decent people and you're intelligent people and 16 you've come here with a goal of serving the 17 public who would say to me, Leichter, I really 18 believe this is the way you got to budget for a 19 Legislature. It's the only way you can do it. 20 You're wrong, Leichter. You all know that this 21 is not the way to do it. You don't believe it's 22 the way to do it, and in point of fact you can 23 come out with an itemized budget and you can 2018 1 maintain those powers that you have and you will 2 elect more Republicans than were elected as 3 Democrats. 4 You run this house. You can pass 5 any budget that you want to. You can maintain 6 those perq's that you think are important, those 7 advantages and benefits and still have an 8 itemized budget. Or are you ashamed of what 9 you're doing and unwilling to let the public 10 know, and even let your fellow members know and 11 this includes members of the Majority who don't 12 know how the legislative appropriations are 13 going to be spent? 14 Sometimes I think that the only 15 people more cynical than -- I don't want to say 16 that we're cynical, but at times we do cynical 17 things; this is a cynical budget. I'm sorry to 18 use those expressions, but I guess maybe the 19 only more cynical people here than those who put 20 forth this sort of a budget and then try to 21 defend it, are -- are the press. 22 You know, they'll go crazy if 23 they find that some state agency misspent 2019 1 $50,000 and maybe they should, because the 2 public money ought to be protected. But here 3 $168 million is appropriated in a few pages, 4 lump sum categories. Everybody knows it's a 5 fraud; it's a hoax; it's disgraceful, but you 6 can't get any attention paid to this issue. 7 So we're going to keep on, on 8 this floor, I shouldn't say maybe that there's 9 no attention paid to it because there have been 10 some stories and there have been some editorials 11 on it, and I think that the public is beginning 12 to understand and we're going to do everything 13 that we possibly can to make the public 14 understand this, not because we're looking for 15 some political advantage. 16 Yes, I think there's a political 17 advantage for us, but that's not what we're 18 interested in. We're interested as members of 19 this body who revere this body that we should 20 not submit this sort of a budget, that we should 21 not ask members to vote on appropriations of 22 hundreds of millions of dollars or tens of 23 millions of dollars or even if it was a million 2020 1 dollars or even if it was one dollar, without 2 our understanding what we're voting for and 3 without the public being able to look at a 4 document and say this is how that money is going 5 to be spent. They spent it correctly or they 6 spent it incorrectly. 7 We're not above the law. We 8 should abide by the same principle that we apply 9 to the Executive Budget, to the judicial 10 budget. Take a look at the judicial budgets, in 11 the same bill, and there we have a fair degree 12 of itemization. 13 I just want to say people who 14 say, Well, we can't vote this down because after 15 all, you know, we have to take care of the 16 judiciary and so on, we could easily receive 17 this budget. We could easily have this 18 legislative budget rewritten, put before us on a 19 message of necessity and pass it. 20 I assure you government would not 21 come to a standstill if you had to wait a couple 22 days while this budget was being itemized. 23 That's what we ought to be doing. We should not 2021 1 pass a budget in this form. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 3 Jones. 4 SENATOR JONES: Yes, Mr. 5 President. 6 Would Senator Stafford yield to a 7 question, please? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 9 Stafford, would you yield to a question from 10 Senator Jones? 11 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 12 SENATOR JONES: And mine is a 13 very simple one. You mentioned before that you 14 have to rely on your staff. Well, as you know, 15 being a new person here, I have to rely more on 16 many of you. Before we spoke about the mailings 17 I had people calculate if we all sent four what 18 it would have come to, and it would have been a 19 saving of three and a half to 4 million, but I 20 guess now I'm confused. 21 Last year, the expenditure was 22 3,652,000 roughly, but this year I see you only 23 have in here 3,500,000, so perhaps you've 2022 1 already taken the cut that I've been talking 2 about. 3 Could you tell me, does this 4 represent a cut from last year and what is your 5 present year for that item? 6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, first I 7 want to commend you on your first year and you 8 have a great future ahead of you. I've enjoyed 9 the -- I enjoyed it. 10 SENATOR JONES: But you can't 11 answer my question. 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would also 13 say, as far as the figures you're talking about, 14 I'm talking about -- I don't have them before 15 me. If the number is less, if the number is less 16 than the year before that would be a cut. 17 SENATOR JONES: Would the Senator 18 yield to another question? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would 20 you yield to another question? 21 SENATOR JONES: Well, then, in 22 other words, I heard you say get the numbers 23 from the Comptroller, so these did come from the 2023 1 Comptroller, so I assume this 6 million must be 2 correct. 3 SENATOR STAFFORD: I - 4 SENATOR JONES: For last year. 5 SENATOR STAFFORD: If that number 6 came from the Comptroller, I'd have to look at 7 it before I - 8 SENATOR JONES: Let's assume that 9 is correct, so if I could find last year's 10 budget, I would probably find this item, this 11 amount as opposed to the 3 million that's here 12 this year. 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: How much is 14 this amount? 15 SENATOR JONES: This is 16 3,300,000. 17 SENATOR STAFFORD: And what's the 18 one before? 19 SENATOR JONES: Last year you 20 spent 6 million, almost, five hundred thousand? 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would have 22 to look at the figures with you. I'm a bit 23 familiar with this, and I'm not sure you have 2024 1 the correct figure. 2 SENATOR JONES: Well, Mr. 3 President, another question. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 5 Jones. 6 SENATOR JONES: As you know, I'm 7 not familiar at all with last year, Senator, so 8 I'm just trying to learn here, you know, so 9 maybe if someone does have that, if I could see 10 what the number is last year. 11 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 13 Dollinger. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 15 President, will Senator Stafford yield to a 16 question. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 18 Stafford? 19 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, as I 21 understand the Finance Committee budget involves 22 -- the legislative portion of this is about 167 23 million plus some minor change; is that correct? 2025 1 SENATOR STAFFORD: I'd have to 2 look; I believe so, yes. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And it's my 4 further understanding that that 167 million is 5 the amount that the Legislature would be 6 expected to spend between April 1st, tomorrow I 7 guess it is, and a year from today; is that 8 correct? 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I'll 10 explain what a fiscal year is. That starts with 11 April 1st and it goes to March 31st; that's what 12 those figures are. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So we're on 14 the current day of the last fiscal year and 15 we'll start a new one tomorrow. 16 SENATOR STAFFORD: Pardon me? 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: We're on the 18 last day today - 19 SENATOR STAFFORD: What's the 20 date? 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: March 31st. 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: So you see? 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So we start a 2026 1 new fiscal year tomorrow. 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: Again - 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through you, 4 Mr. President. Would you yield to another 5 question? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would 7 you yield to another question? 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: I didn't 9 answer the first question. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll wait for 11 the answer to the first question. I'm waiting 12 for the first question. 13 What I'm trying to find out is 14 the first -- the 167 million and change, it's my 15 understanding that's the budgeted amount for the 16 next fiscal year that we start tomorrow; is that 17 correct? 18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, what it 19 is, it starts on April 1st, tomorrow, and it 20 goes to March 31st of 1994. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Oh, O.K. And 22 that's what we anticipate that this Legislature 23 will spend, correct? 2027 1 SENATOR STAFFORD: We're 2 budgeting it. You always -- you anticipate 3 everything you budget? 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, I'm 5 simply trying to find out what that number 6 represents. I'm trying to -- that's what we 7 intend to spend. 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, it 9 represents the budget. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's the 11 budgeted amount, what we anticipate to spend; 12 isn't that correct? 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. The word 14 "anticipated" I'm not sure is the exact correct 15 word. It's the budget for the 1993-1994 fiscal 16 year. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But that's 18 what we anticipate spending; isn't that correct? 19 SENATOR STAFFORD: It's budgeted 20 and then, of course, it could be up, it could be 21 down; you never know. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, that's, 23 I guess, my question but that's -- that's what 2028 1 we sat down and said, that's what we need to run 2 the Legislature in the '93 and '94 years; isn't 3 that correct? That's what I assume the Finance 4 Committee is referring to, through you, Mr. 5 President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, 7 Senator Stafford. 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: I was 9 referring to what? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I 11 wasn't sure of the question. 12 (Talking over.) 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, it was 14 167 million, Mr. President, through you, that we 15 expect to spend in the next fiscal year; am I 16 correct or incorrect? 17 SENATOR STAFFORD: Don't you see 18 a budget more or less as a guide? Don't you 19 find it that way? Do you have a budget in your 20 business, you know? 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll accept 22 it, Mr. President, but that's our guide for the 23 next year is 167 million; isn't that correct? 2029 1 SENATOR STAFFORD: And change, 2 wouldn't you say? 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And change, 4 isn't that correct? 5 SENATOR STAFFORD: Pardon me? 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Isn't that 7 correct, that's what the anticipated expenses 8 are? 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: We're back to 10 "anticipated" now. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, strike 12 that, Mr. President, budgeted expenses. 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Guideline. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: No. We're 15 just voting on a guideline; is that correct, 16 through you, Mr. President? 17 SENATOR STAFFORD: Didn't get it. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 19 Stafford, I guess he's yielding. Are you 20 yielding? 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Oh, by all 22 means. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: He says 2030 1 that's a guideline. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think we've 3 established that, Mr. President. What I want to 4 ask is, and the point of my question is, if our 5 guideline is 167 million, and that's what we 6 budgeted for - 7 SENATOR STAFFORD: Right. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- why do we 9 need $55 million of reappropriations over the 10 top of that? 11 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, you'll 12 find -- you'll find that in -- really budgeting 13 is a science. It's a science, and I assure you 14 that I'm not as much of a scientist as I should 15 be and, when you start talking about soft money 16 and hard money and reappropriations, it's quite 17 confusing, but then I think I can help you. 18 Usually a reappropriation is 19 something that was not spent, so it's funds are 20 there, but if you're going to be able to use 21 them in the next fiscal year -- remember, fiscal 22 year now was April 1st to March 31st, if you're 23 going to be able to use those funds, they have 2031 1 to be re-appropriated because, see they were 2 appropriated once; so reappropriated means they 3 are being appropriated again. They weren't 4 used. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Let me 6 just ask another question through - 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 8 Stafford, would you yield to another question 9 from Senator Dollinger? 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, are 12 you familiar with the Legislative Commission on 13 the Modernization and Simplification of the Tax 14 Administration and the Tax Law? 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And do you 17 know how much they were budgeted for in 1992 and 18 '93? 19 SENATOR STAFFORD: I don't have 20 that right in front of me. I believe that 21 was - 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I 23 can tell you. 2032 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: He's 2 still answering. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Excuse me, 4 Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Are you 6 finished with your answer? 7 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: He's finished 9 with his answer? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: He's 11 finished with his answer. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, just 13 for my colleagues' edification, I would say that 14 figure from the budget document was $404,000 in 15 the budget year and, in addition, it's budgeted 16 at 404,000 in the current or in the future 17 fiscal year. I shouldn't say "budgeted", 18 perhaps "guided", Mr. President; is that the 19 term we've agreed on? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I only 21 just direct who's got the floor. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K., Mr. 23 President. 2033 1 SENATOR STAFFORD: Again, I hate 2 to confuse anyone because it's so easy for me to 3 be confused, but this is an Assembly commission 4 so it's -- the details really would come from 5 the Assembly. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, I guess 7 my question is -- my further question is, Mr. 8 President, they were budgeted for 104... 404,000 9 but this year we're going to reappropriate 10 $594,000. Where does all the extra money come 11 from, through you, Mr. President. To the 12 chairman of the Finance Committee? 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, that's 14 certainly good news. I don't know, I don't know 15 how often -- we often hear that, but obviously 16 what it would be, it would be funds not being 17 spent over the years, so you actually end up 18 with more, and whoever is involved in this 19 commission, all of them are to be commended. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 21 President, just -- so my question to the 22 chairman of the Finance Committee is, if they 23 aren't spending money and we haven't -- we've 2034 1 given them a guideline to spend some more but 2 they didn't spend what we gave them last year, 3 why should we continue them in existence and 4 just not give that money back to the taxpayers 5 so we can make them as happy as we are? 6 SENATOR STAFFORD: I urge, Mr. 7 President, I urge my colleague to come to some 8 of the Senate budget hearings, or Senate and 9 Assembly budget hearings next year. Maybe you 10 did, maybe you did this year, but budgeting is 11 not an exact science. We don't know exactly 12 what's going to happen in one year. You can 13 have three years where you don't use too much, 14 then you might be in a position where you needed 15 more. I assure you, if we find too many of 16 these, the money will be used very quickly. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 18 President, one more question to my colleague. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 20 Stafford, I'm sure, will yield. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, 22 you've been certainly in this Legislature far 23 longer than I have, and my -- my question is, if 2035 1 there were a state agency that you found had 2 been appropriated or excuse me, guided for a 3 certain dollar amount and then you found out 4 that it only spent two-thirds of that amount, 5 wouldn't your natural reaction, based on your 6 experience in this Legislature, be to cut the 7 agency back one-third since it could only spend 8 two-thirds of the total amount you budgeted it 9 for in the first place? 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, once 11 again, it would depend on -- Mr. President, it 12 would depend on the facts. It would depend on 13 what their responsibility has been, what it's 14 going to be. You know, it's very easy, very 15 easy. I found myself doing it, and I still do 16 it, you know, you see something, you say this is 17 ridiculous, doesn't make any sense. Very often 18 when you look into it, you see why the money 19 wasn't spent in the last couple of years, but 20 why there may be a need for the money next year, 21 and I have to share with you that the people 22 that work with these numbers in the budget, 23 Division of the Budget, and the -- and in the 2036 1 Legislature, and in anywhere in government, you 2 were in local government I believe, local 3 government? 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I was. 5 SENATOR STAFFORD: Right. You 6 found the same thing. You never know exactly, 7 you know, what the next year is going to bring, 8 and I suppose that, if I found an agency that 9 had a -- had a billion dollars left over, I 10 think I probably would say let's use it. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, Mr. 12 President, one other question through you. 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: It was my last 14 question. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Be my last 16 question, Mr. Chairman. 17 To use the same analogy on the 18 state budget, we're about to give or someone is 19 about to give Governor Cuomo and the executive 20 branch and the entire state government about $60 21 billion dollars or so, give or take some change, 22 worth of authorization to spend money in the 23 next fiscal year as you've described it, or I 2037 1 should say guidelines to spend that; is that 2 correct? 3 SENATOR STAFFORD: Now, wait a 4 minute; say that again. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, the 6 budget battle that we're about to have, the 7 budget discussion that we're about to have, the 8 total spending budget number, the total 9 authorized spending level would be somewhere in 10 the neighborhood of $60 million -- $60 billion; 11 isn't that correct? 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: It's the 13 vicinity. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: If Governor 15 Cuomo came back and said, Gosh, I only spent 40 16 billion of that and next year I want to 17 reappropriate 20 billion, one-third of my total 18 amount, is it safe to say, Mr. Chairman, that 19 you as the chairman of the Finance Committee 20 would recommend that the following year the 21 guideline or the budget be reduced to the amount 22 he actually spent, rather than that guideline 23 number of 60 billion? Wouldn't you drop the 2038 1 budget to 40 billion, and say this is money not 2 spent and give it back to the taxpayers? 3 SENATOR STAFFORD: I suggest you 4 go down to Governor Cuomo and try to get any 5 money back. I'll tell you, it's such - 6 SENATOR GALIBER: Mr. President, 7 a point of information. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 9 Galiber, why do you rise? 10 SENATOR GALIBER: Is there a time 11 limit on this? I try -- I've been opposed to 12 cameras in the courtroom and CNN coming in, but 13 is there a two-hour time limit? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, 15 there is a two-hour time limit. 16 SENATOR GALIBER: Can you tell me 17 how much time we have left? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: What 19 time did this start? 20 SENATOR GOLD: Started at 5:30. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: In deference 22 to - 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: This 2039 1 stimulating debate started at 4:36. 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President, 3 I have been very, very -- tried to be very, very 4 patient and I will continue to be, and I'll 5 stand and ask questions, as long as anyone wants 6 to -- or answer questions as long as anyone 7 wants to -- answer questions as long as anyone 8 wants to ask them, but I suggest that Senator 9 Galiber's point drives home a very sensible 10 point. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 12 President, with that guidance from my two 13 colleagues, I'll discontinue my questioning and 14 I'd just like to to be heard on the bill for a 15 brief point. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 17 bill, Senator Dollinger. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It seems to 19 me that the reason why I highlighted the 20 Commission on Modernization and Simplification 21 of the Tax Law is that we are about to violate a 22 very modern and simple principle of taxing, and 23 that is, when you don't need it don't tax for 2040 1 it. 2 We're about to reappropriate 55 3 billion -- million dollars over the top of a 4 $167 million budget. Anyone who thinks we're 5 reducing legislative expenses, at least in the 6 guideline principles of budgeting that I'm 7 familiar with, is sorely mistaken. How we can 8 justify this tax study commission which we 9 appropriate, budget or guideline 404,000 for and 10 they turn back into the state treasury as a 11 reappropriation $594,000 and we don't examine 12 what they did, how they did it, what they spent, 13 what they spent it for, without itemized budget 14 ing, without the kinds of reforms that we're 15 talking about, we can't make any sense of this 16 document. 17 I'd just submit that much like 18 the artful dodgers I mentioned a minute ago, 19 we're about to take money from the taxpayers and 20 not account for it again. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 22 bill? Read the last section. 23 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President. 2041 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hold 2 on. 3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President, 4 on behalf of the Majority Leader, can we lay 5 this bill aside? And may we have any reports of 6 standing committees? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay the 8 bill aside temporarily and a report of a 9 standing committee will be read. 10 The clock stopped. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman, 12 from the Committee on Investigations, Taxation 13 and Government Operations - 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 15 Galiber -- go ahead, I'm sorry. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman, 17 from the Committee on Investigations, Taxation 18 and Government Operations, reports the following 19 bill directly for third reading: Senate Bill 20 Number 4064, by Senator Lack, an act to amend 21 the Tax Law and Chapter 713 of the Laws of 1992 22 amending the tax law, relating to Suffolk County 23 sales and use taxes. 2042 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 2 objection, that bill is reported directly to 3 third reading. 4 Senator Padavan. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 6 a point of order. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 8 Leichter, what's your point of order? 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Point of 10 order. When was there a meeting of the 11 Committee on Taxation and Investigations at 12 which those two bills were acted on? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 14 -- do we - 15 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator Goodman 16 is out of the chamber. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I'll 18 have to ask the acting Majority Leader. 19 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator Goodman 20 is not in the chamber at this moment in time, 21 but we'll certainly try to reach out to him and 22 get an answer to that question. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: As soon 2043 1 as we can reach Senator Goodman, we'll try to 2 get you an answer, Senator Leichter. 3 SENATOR PADAVAN: We can hold 4 that report. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 6 Senator, just a moment, we have a slip at the 7 desk with the votes of each member if you would 8 be interested in that, and if I might, it was 9 unanimously voted on by Senator Goodman, Senator 10 Marchi, Senator Trunzo, Senator Maltese, Senator 11 Skelos, Senator DeFrancisco, Senator Nozzolio, 12 Senator Stavisky, Senator Onorato, Senator 13 Mendez, Senator Smith and Senator Waldon. It 14 was 12 to nothing. You might ask one of the 15 other members. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: I accept the 17 bills; I asked when there was a meeting of the 18 committee. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That's 20 all the desk has is the vote of the - 21 SENATOR PADAVAN: I'm sure it 22 would be a valid vote of the committee; I would 23 accept the committee report as read. 2044 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 2 report has been accepted. 3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 5 Padavan still has the floor. 6 Senator Seward. 7 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes, if we could 8 return to motions, on behalf of Senator Daly, on 9 page 15, I offer the following amendments to 10 Calendar Number 331, Senate Print Number 3370-A 11 and ask that the bill retain its place on the 12 Third Reading Calendar. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 14 amendments are received. The bill will retain 15 its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 16 Senator Present. 17 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 18 I move that we recess subject to the call of the 19 Majority Leader. I will advise all members to 20 keep in contact with their respective offices or 21 with the Senate telephone - 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 23 Senate will stand in recess. Senators are to 2045 1 remain in contact with the -- with their offices 2 and -- or with the Senate telephone operators. 3 Senate stands in recess unless there's any other 4 motions or business. 5 (The Senate recessed from 5:55 6 p.m. until 11:04 p.m.) 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 8 Present. Senate will come to order. 9 Senator Present. 10 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 11 will you see if you can get a little order in 12 this chamber, please. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Let's 14 have some order in the chamber, please. The 15 conversations -- that's about as much as we'll 16 get, I guess. 17 Senator Present, what's your 18 pleasure? 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 20 I'd like unanimous consent to suspend the rules 21 and advance from the Second Report Calendar 22 Calendar Number 359, Senate Bill 3986 out of its 23 regular order to third reading. 2046 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 2 Secretary will read. Without objection, we're 3 going to -- that bill is advanced. 4 Senator Present, there's a 5 committee report here at the desk. 6 SENATOR PRESENT: Let's hear the 7 committee report. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 9 Secretary will read the committee report. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 11 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 12 following bill directly for third reading. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hold on 14 a minute. All right. We'll try and be a little 15 patient. It's late. There's a committee report 16 and I would ask that there be a little bit of 17 order in this chamber. 18 Secretary will read the committee 19 report. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 21 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 22 following bill directly for third reading: 23 Senate Bill Number 4245, by the Committee on 2047 1 Rules, an act to provide for payments to 2 municipalities and to providers of medical 3 services under the medical assistance program 4 and income maintenance program and making an 5 appropriation therefor, directly to third 6 reading. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 8 objection, directly to third reading. 9 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 10 I ask that that bill have its third reading at 11 this time. Is there a message of necessity at 12 the desk? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There's 14 a message of necessity here at the desk. Yes, 15 Senator. 16 SENATOR PRESENT: I move that we 17 accept the message. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: All in 19 favor of accepting the message, say aye. 20 (Response of "Aye.") 21 Those opposed nay. 22 (There was no response. ) 23 You can read the last section. 2048 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 4 the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes -- ayes 56, 7 nays 4, Senators Holland, Maltese, Padavan and 8 Velella recorded in the negative. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 10 bill is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Also Senator 12 DeFrancisco in the negative. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 14 bill is passed. 15 Senator Present, what's your 16 pleasure? 17 SENATOR PRESENT: It came that 18 time that I mentioned earlier in the afternoon 19 it's time to stand at ease for a while. We're 20 going to stand at ease. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 22 Senate will stand at ease. 23 (The Senate stood at ease from 2049 1 11:08 p.m. to 11:49 p.m.) 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 3 Present. Senate will come to order. 4 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 5 in behalf of Senator Levy, I'd like to announce 6 there will be a Republican Conference at 12:00 7 o'clock in 332. That's midnight. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Are we 9 going to continue to stand at ease? 10 SENATOR PRESENT: Do as they 11 like, Conference at 12:00. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There 13 will be a 12:00 o'clock midnight conference in 14 Room 332 of the Republican Majority. The Senate 15 will stand at ease. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 17 Gold. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, on behalf 19 of - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hold 21 on. 22 SENATOR GOLD: On behalf of 23 Senator Mendez, I'd like to announce a 2050 1 Democratic Conference at 11:59. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 3 Democratic Conference will be meeting in their 4 conference room at a minute before midnight. 5 (The Senate stood at ease from 6 11:50 p.m. until 12:30 a.m.) 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 8 Senate will come to order. Let's have a little 9 order, so we can hear Senator Present. 10 Senator Present. 11 SENATOR PRESENT: Call up 12 Calendar Number 337. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 14 Secretary will read 337. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 337, Assembly Budget Bill, Assembly Print Number 17 1350-A, State Operations Budget Bill. 18 SENATOR PRESENT: I move we 19 accept the message of necessity that's at the 20 desk. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: All in 22 favor of accepting the message of necessity, say 23 aye. 2051 1 (Response of "Aye.") 2 Those opposed nay. 3 (There was no response. ) 4 The message is accepted. You can 5 read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 9 the roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays 4, 12 Senators Dollinger, Jones, Leichter and Pataki 13 recorded in the negative. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 15 bill is passed. 16 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 18 Present. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Take up 20 Calendar 380, please. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 380, 22 Secretary will read it. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2052 1 380, Senator Stafford moves to discharge the 2 Committee on Finance from Assembly Bill Number 3 1351-A and substitute it for the identical 4 Senate Bill 651-A. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 6 Substitution is ordered. 7 You can read the last section. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Where is a 9 calendar? Could you just read the title of this 10 bill, please. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 12 Secretary will read the title of the bill for 13 Senator Leichter. 14 THE SECRETARY: Assembly Bill 15 Number 1351-A, Assembly Budget Bill, an act 16 making appropriations for the support of 17 government and to amend the Legislative Law, in 18 relation to the appointment of Secretaries of 19 the Finance and Ways and Means Committees and 20 certain committee redesignations, Legislature 21 and Judiciary Budget. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: You can 23 read the last section. 2053 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 4 the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 7 the negative on Calendar Number 380 are Senators 8 DeFrancisco, Dollinger, Jones, Leichter, Pataki 9 and Stachowski. Ayes 55, nays 6. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That 11 bill is passed. 12 Senator Present, that completes 13 our agenda for this evening. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 16 Gold. 17 SENATOR GOLD: How did Senator 18 Marino and I vote on that last one? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We 20 voted in the affirmative. 21 SENATOR GOLD: You're O.K. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 23 Present. 2054 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 2 in behalf of Senator Levy, I'd like to announce 3 there will -- there'll be a Majority Conference 4 tomorrow at 11:30, promptly at 11:30. 5 There being no further business, 6 I - 7 SENATOR MENDEZ: Democratic 8 Conference at 11:30, promptly, tomorrow. 9 SENATOR PRESENT: Well done. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There 11 will be a Republican Conference at 11:30 prompt 12 in 332, and Senator Mendez says the Democratic 13 Conference will also be prompt at 11:30 in their 14 conference room. 15 Senator Present, do you have 16 anything else for us? 17 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 18 there being no further business, I move that we 19 adjourn to the call of the Chair tomorrow 20 following the conferences. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 22 Senate will stand adjourned tomorrow at the call 23 of the Majority Leader at -- after our 2055 1 conferences. 2 (Whereupon at 12:34 a.m., the 3 Senate adjourned.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23