Monday, April 19, 1993

2443 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 April 19, 1993 11 3:17 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 SENATOR HUGH T. FARLEY, Acting President 19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 20 21 22 23 2444 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senate 3 will come to order. Senators will please find 4 their seats. 5 If you will please rise with me 6 for the Pledge of Allegiance. 7 (Whereupon, the Senate joined in 8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. ) 9 Today, in the absence of clergy, 10 we will bow our heads for a moment of silent 11 prayer. 12 (Whereupon, there was a moment of 13 silence. ) 14 Secretary will begin by reading 15 the Journal. 16 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 17 Friday, April 16. The Senate met pursuant to 18 adjournment. Senator Bruno in the chair upon 19 designation of the Temporary President. The 20 Journal of Wednesday, April 14, was read and 21 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hearing 23 no objection, the Journal will stand approved as 2445 1 read. 2 The order of business. 3 Presentation of petitions. 4 Messages from the Assembly. 5 Messages from the Governor. 6 We have a message from the 7 Governor. The Secretary will read this message 8 to Senator Volker and others. 9 THE SECRETARY: The Governor 10 returned without executive approval Senate Bill 11 Number 200, Veto Number 1, an act to amend the 12 Penal Law, the Criminal Procedure Law, Judiciary 13 Law and the County Law, in relation to the 14 imposition of the death penalty in certain 15 additional instances and establishing a 16 procedure therefor. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay the 18 bill on the table, the veto. Lay the vetoed 19 bill on the table. 20 Reports of standing committees. 21 Reports of select committees. 22 Communications and reports from 23 state officers. 2446 1 Motions and resolutions. 2 Senator Johnson, first, I guess. 3 SENATOR JOHNSON: On behalf of 4 Senator Cook, I move to commit Senate Print 5 Number 2834, Calendar Number 352, to third 6 reading -- I guess now in third reading to the 7 Committee on Finance. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 9 bill is recommitted to Finance. 10 Senator Nozzolio. 11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes. Mr. 12 President. I move that the following bills be 13 discharged from their respective committees and 14 be recommended with instructions to strike the 15 enacting clause: Senate Print Number 3992. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 17 objection. 18 Senator Wright. 19 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President. 20 On behalf of Senator Mega, on page number 5, I 21 offer the following amendments to Calendar 22 Number 133, Senate Print Number 1939, and ask 23 that the bill retain its place on the Third 2447 1 Reading Calendar. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 3 bill will retain its place on the Third Reading 4 Calendar. Amendments are received. 5 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President. 6 On behalf of Senator Farley, on page number 15, 7 I offer the following amendments to Calendar 8 Number 370, Senate Print Number 2726, and ask 9 that said bill retain its place on the Third 10 Reading Calendar. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 12 Amendments received. The bill will retain its 13 place. 14 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President. 15 On behalf of Senator Sears, on page number 12, I 16 offer the following amendments to Calendar 17 Number 339, Senate Print Number 3452, and ask 18 that the bill retain its place on the Third 19 Reading Calendar. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 21 objection, the bill will retain its place. 22 Senator Stachowski. 23 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 2448 1 President. I move that the following bill be 2 discharged from its committee and be recommitted 3 with instructions to strike the enacting clause: 4 Senate Print 754. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Bill is 6 recommitted and enacting clause will be struck. 7 Are there any other motions on 8 the floor? 9 Senator Present. 10 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 11 Let's take up the non-controversial calendar, 12 please. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 14 Non-controversial. The Secretary will read. 15 THE SECRETARY: On page 5, 16 Calendar Number 90, by Senator DeFrancisco, 17 Senate Bill Number 1921A, an act to amend the 18 Highway Law, in relation to designating a 19 portion of the state highway system as the 20 Veterans of Foreign Wars Memorial Highway. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2449 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 3 the roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 7 bill is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: On page 11, 9 Calendar Number 334, by Senator Saland. 10 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 11 aside. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay that 13 bill aside. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 343, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 16 1357, an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY Read the 18 last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 22 the roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2450 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 3 bill is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 344, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 6 1703, an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, 7 in relation to providing an exemption for 8 capital construction costs. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 10 the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 14 the roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 18 bill is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 345, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 1985, 21 an act to amend the Executive Law, in relation 22 to authorizing the state office for the aging to 23 establish a social model. 2451 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 2 the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 6 the roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 10 bill is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 347, by Senator - 13 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 14 aside. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay 16 that bill aside. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 349, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 1964, 19 authorize the payment of transportation aid to 20 Newburgh Enlarged City School District. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There 22 is a local fiscal impact note here at the desk. 23 Read the last section. 2452 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 4 the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 8 bill is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 350, by Senator LaValle. 11 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 12 aside. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay 14 that bill aside. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 351, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 17 2802, an act to amend the Education Law, in 18 relation to fish study grants. 19 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Can we get 20 one day on this one? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 22 Johnson? 23 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 2453 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay the 2 bill aside for the day. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 353, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 3864, 5 an act to amend the - 6 SENATOR MARCHI: Lay it aside. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 8 aside. 9 SENATOR MARCHI: Last section. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 11 the last section of that bill, Senator Cook's 12 bill, 353. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 16 the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 20 bill is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 354, by member of the Assembly Bragman, Assembly 23 Bill Number 1959, an act to amend Chapter 53 of 2454 1 the Laws of 1804. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 3 the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 7 the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 11 bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 357, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number 14 3287, legalize, validate, ratify and confirm the 15 acts of the town board. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 17 the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 21 the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 2455 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 2 bill is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 361, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 194, an 5 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 7 the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 11 the roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48, excuse 14 me. Ayes 47, nays 1. Senator DeFrancisco 15 recorded in the negative. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 17 bill is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 362, by Senator Tully, Senate Bill Number 2539A, 20 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2456 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 3 the roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. Nays 6 1. Senator DeFrancisco recorded in the 7 negative. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 9 bill is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 363, by Senator Sheffer, Senate Bill Number 12 2855, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic 13 Law. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 15 the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 19 the roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 23 bill is passed. 2457 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 364, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 3026, 3 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 5 the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 9 the roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. Nays 12 1. Senator Pataki recorded in the negative. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That 14 bill is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 365, by Senator Stafford. 17 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 19 aside. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 367, by Senator Cook. 22 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 23 aside. 2458 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 2 aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 368, by Senator Farley, Senate Bill Number 1595, 5 an act to amend the Banking Law and the Criminal 6 Procedure Law. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 8 the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 12 the roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 15 President. May I please be excused from voting 16 on this bill. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 18 objection, Senator Leichter abstains. 19 Call the roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 23 bill is passed. 2459 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 371, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 471, an 3 act to amend the Railroad Law and the Public 4 Authorities Law. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 6 the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 10 the roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 14 bill is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 372, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 1002, 17 Vehicle and Traffic Law, prohibiting disposition 18 of DWI offenses. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 20 the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 2460 1 the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 5 bill is passed. 6 No, there's some negatives here. 7 THE SECRETARY: Excuse me. 8 Calendar 372: Ayes 49. Nays 1. Senator 9 DeFrancisco recorded in the negative. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 11 bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 375, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 2076, 14 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 16 the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 20 the roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 2461 1 bill is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 376, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 2715, 4 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 6 the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 10 the roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 14 bill is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 378, by Senator Daly. 17 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 18 aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay 20 that bill aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 379, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number 23 3691, Social Services Law. 2462 1 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 2 aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 4 aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 382, by Senator Holland. 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: Star the bill. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Star 9 the bill at the request of the sponsor. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 384, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 3583, 12 an act to amend the Education Law, in relation 13 to making certain - 14 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 15 aside. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 17 aside. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 385, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number - 20 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 21 aside. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 23 aside. 2463 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 386, by Senator Seward, Senate Bill Number 3109, 3 an act to amend the Education Law, in relation 4 to increasing penalties for violations. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 7 aside. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 388, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 3515A. 10 SENATOR SMITH: Lay it aside. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 12 aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 389, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number 15 3721, Education Law, in relation to enacting the 16 Higher Education Community Service Act. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 18 the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 22 the roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2464 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 3 bill is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 390, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number 6 1051, Agriculture and Markets Law, in relation 7 to the sale and licensure of farm products. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 9 the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 13 the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 17 bill is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 391, by Senator Present. 20 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 21 for the day. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 23 aside for the day. 2465 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 392, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 3 2610, Agriculture and Markets Law. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 5 the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 9 the roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That 13 bill is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 393, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 3182, 16 Agriculture and Markets Law. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 18 the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 22 the roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2466 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 2 aside. Withdraw the roll call. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 394, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 3336, 5 Agriculture and Markets Law. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 7 the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 11 the roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 15 bill is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 395, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 3414, 18 Agriculture and Markets Law. 19 SENATOR KUHL: Lay it aside for 20 the day, please. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 22 aside for today. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2467 1 413, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Bill 2 Number 4363, an act to amend the Public Health 3 Law. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 5 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 6 aside. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 8 aside. 9 Senator Present, that's the first 10 time - 11 Senator Daly, why do you rise? 12 SENATOR DALY: On page 19, 13 Calendar Number 91 -- I'm sorry, Calendar Number 14 93, Senate Bill Number 1106A, would you remove 15 the star from that bill, please. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Star is 17 removed at the request of the sponsor. 18 Senator Present. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 20 would you recognize Senator Skelos, please. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We can 22 do that. 23 Senator Skelos. 2468 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 2 is there a privileged resolution at the desk? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There 4 is one. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: I would like to 6 have it read in its entirety. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 8 Secretary will read Senator Skelos' resolution 9 in its entirety. 10 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 11 Resolution, commemorating the 50th Anniversary 12 of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising upon the occasion 13 of the observance of Yom-Hashoah-the Day of 14 Remembrance. 15 Whereas, it is the sense of this 16 Legislative Body to commemorate the 50th 17 Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. 18 On April 19, 1943, on the eve of 19 Passover, a band of 700 fighters, some as young 20 as teenagers, took on the Third Reich. 21 For 27 days, this cadre of 22 resistance fighters fought the German Army with 23 pistols and homemade bombs. 2469 1 The genesis of the resistance had 2 been fueled by the German occupation of Warsaw 3 in 1940; they walled off a mile and a half of 4 the city in which nearly a half million Jews 5 from Warsaw and Central Poland were forced to 6 live. 7 Impossible living standards 8 brought about disease; starvation was a daily 9 reality that caused thousands of deaths. 10 During the next three years, 11 resettlement had sent 350,000 Jews to a human 12 extermination camp in Treblinka. 13 Despite the odds against them, 14 the resistance fighters vowed to not die on 15 their knees; they refused to succumb to Nazi 16 tyrrany marking the first instance of an 17 uprising by an urban population in German 18 occupied Europe. 19 The only means by which the 20 Germans could stop the uprising was to burn the 21 ghetto to the ground, building by building. 22 In the hearts and minds of the 23 survivors, the Warsaw Ghetto lives. 2470 1 Upon the occasion of the 50th 2 Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, it is 3 the sense of this Legislative Body to recognize 4 the courage and bravery of those who struggled 5 for freedom in the Warsaw Ghetto. 6 For those who will not learn from 7 the lessons of history, there is no hope; their 8 end is most assuredly assigned; the world which 9 they seek to undo is irrevocably anchored in the 10 heroism of the Jewish people; this is the source 11 of Jewish resistance to the reactionary area 12 forces of oppression, the unquenchable yearning 13 to be free, a determination so indigenous to 14 those traditions of religious and cultural 15 identification which define the Jewish 16 heritage. 17 The desire for freedom, for 18 self-determination, upon the part of the Jewish 19 people, touches the hearts of all; it transcends 20 the advocates of mindless retrenchment; it frays 21 and shreds the mantle of pure blind indifference 22 which so cruelly seeks to rewrite the tragic 23 history of Jewish suffering; arching across the 2471 1 great Atlantic, it strikes a resonant chord upon 2 the American bell of freedom. 3 It is the voice which this 4 Legislative Body hears, the voice of those who 5 suffered and died in the Warsaw Ghetto, whose 6 sons and daughters have so manifestly 7 contributed to the cause of America's freedom, 8 whose commitment to human dignity is so visibly 9 mirrored in the spiritual dimensions of the 10 Zionist movement. 11 Now, therefore, be it resolved, 12 that this Legislative Body pause in its 13 deliberations to commemorate the 50th 14 Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising; and 15 be it further 16 Resolved, that a copy of this 17 resolution, suitably engrossed, be transmitted 18 to the Jewish Community Relations Council. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 20 Skelos. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 22 At times, it's human nature to try to blot out 23 from our memory those occurrences which are very 2472 1 negative and very horrible. 2 The purpose of this resolution is 3 not only to commemorate the 50th Anniversary of 4 the uprising in Warsaw but also to remind us as 5 legislators, to remind us as parents, to remind 6 us as human beings, that the horrible events of 7 the Holocaust did occur despite the fact that 8 there are many revisionists of history who would 9 try to say that it did not. 10 It is incumbent upon all of us to 11 remind our children, to remind our grand 12 children of the horrors of the Holocaust so that 13 it may never occur again. 14 And I would be honored if any 15 member would like to co-sponsor this resolution 16 to so indicate to the desk, and I move the 17 adoption of the resolution. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Before 20 Senator Gold speaks, could I have the names of 21 anybody or the desk have the names of people who 22 would like to co-sponsor this resolution. 23 Senator Gold? You seem to be 2473 1 standing. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Thank you, 3 Mr. President. 4 Mr. President. Too often we see 5 situations where we use words, and the words 6 have a familiar ring and they sound right, but 7 we really don't get into the words more than 8 that. I found out, for example, in hearings I 9 held on gun legislation that people nod their 10 heads in agreement, but they don't really 11 understand it. But if you show them guns and 12 talk about it, they understand it. 13 This resolution has on the bottom 14 of page 2 -- and I think Senator Skelos already 15 referred to it, but it says, "Those who will not 16 learn the lessons of history..." and then it 17 goes on. 18 We are aware that there are 19 people who are dedicated to the proposition that 20 as each year goes by they will convince more and 21 more people that the Holocaust never occurred 22 and that the atrocities of the Nazi regime never 23 occurred. They do it in very, very subtle 2474 1 ways. They will, for example, encourage 2 seminars to discuss the Holocaust. And one of 3 the questions involved in the seminar they want 4 to be, quotes, "whether it ever happened?" 5 In the back of their mind is that 6 50 years from now or 100 years from now someone 7 will see that brochure and say, "You see, way 8 back in the 1990s, they were even questioning 9 whether it even occurred." 10 I read the paper today, and there 11 was an article about what is happening in 12 another part of the world today and how tyrrany 13 in that part of the world is already mirroring 14 what happened in the Holocaust. It spoke of 15 rape alleys where Moslem young women are taken 16 by the invaders and brutalized six, seven times 17 a night. And as I read those stories, while it 18 was not Jewish women involved, Moslem women, 19 unfortunately, the mirroring of the situations 20 was all too evident. 21 It is very uncomfortable for me, 22 and I'm sure for many people in this chamber and 23 certainly for millions of people in the world, 2475 1 to view some of the programs that are repeated 2 so often on television which show the World War 3 II closing years and the aftermath when they 4 discovered -- not only discovered, but they were 5 actually there with the photographic evidence 6 and cameras of what happened in the Holocaust. 7 And I want to congratulate 8 Senator Skelos and everyone who is involved with 9 this resolution because you've got to keep 10 telling it and you've got to repeat it and, just 11 as all of us who have our own various religious 12 beliefs know, that much of religion is the 13 repetition of history and the study of history. 14 So, for example, on the Passover night, the 15 service, the Passover Seder, we review the 16 history; and during the most religious days in 17 the Jewish calendar, we read of the history of 18 tortures to people; and those same types of 19 tortures have been showered upon, not by choice, 20 Christians, Moslems, people of all faiths and 21 all walks of life. 22 And as uncomfortable as it is, 23 there is no excuse to ever stop repeating the 2476 1 tales and telling the stories, lest we by 2 neglect give in to those in our society who are 3 waiting for the day when they can increase 4 credibility to the spurious and disgusting 5 argument that these horrible events never took 6 place. The memorials, the services, the 7 parades, the events of the last few days and of 8 this week which, once again, highlight these 9 atrocities are very important. 10 And I'm delighted that this house 11 is joining with people throughout the world to 12 stand up against this type of inhumane treatment 13 of human beings. I'm delighted to be a 14 co-sponsor. And as one of my colleagues, years 15 ago -- may he rest in piece -- in the Assembly 16 said, I not only, Senator Skelos, accept your 17 words, I accept your English. It is a well 18 written resolution, and I'm proud that we are 19 passing it today. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 21 resolution. All those in favor, aye. 22 (Response of "Aye.") 23 Those opposed, nay. 2477 1 (There was no response. ) 2 The resolution is unanimously 3 adopted. 4 Senator Present. 5 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 6 Would you recognize Senator Tully, please. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, I 8 will. 9 Senator Tully. 10 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. You have a resolution before you 12 dealing with a Mr. Alfredo Kraus? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, we 14 do. 15 SENATOR TULLY: May I ask it be 16 read, please. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 18 Secretary will read the resolution. In its 19 entirety, Senator Tully, or the title? 20 SENATOR TULLY: The title, 21 please. 22 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 23 Resolution, by Senators Tully, Goodman, and 2478 1 others, commending opera tenor Alfredo Kraus 2 upon the occasion of his 27th season at the 3 Metropolitan Opera in New York City, to be 4 commemorated at a reception on April 19, 1993. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 6 Tully. 7 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 8 President. Throughout the month of April, the 9 distinguished opera tenor Alfredo Kraus will be 10 performing at the Metropolitan Opera in New York 11 City. Mr. Kraus, a gifted lyrical tenor, has 12 been endowed with a rich and intense, warm voice 13 which has established him as a monument in the 14 opera world for nearly 36 years. 15 However, we honor Mr. Kraus for 16 more than simply his unparalleled singing 17 ability. We honor him for his long and 18 sustained commitment to inspiring appreciation 19 for opera as an art in the general public. More 20 importantly, however, we honor him for his work 21 with aspiring young performers whom Mr. Kraus 22 teaches and advises. 23 This evening Alfredo Kraus will 2479 1 be celebrated at a reception in his honor in New 2 York City, and I hope that all of my colleagues 3 will join with me and Senator Goodman in 4 welcoming him to New York for his 27th season at 5 the Metropolitan Opera. 6 Thank you, Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 8 resolution. All those in favor, say aye. 9 (Response of "Aye.") 10 Those opposed, nay. 11 (There was no response. ) 12 The resolution is adopted. 13 Senator Present. 14 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 15 Can we take up the controversial calendar, 16 please. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 18 Secretary will read the controversial calendar. 19 THE SECRETARY: On page 11, 20 Calendar Number 334, by Senator Saland, Senate 21 Bill Number 796, an act to amend the General 22 Business Law. 23 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explanation. 2480 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 2 aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 347, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 47, 5 an act to authorize the Salvation Army Eastern 6 Territory School for Officers Training to change 7 its name to the Salvation Army Training College. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 9 Explanation has been asked for. Lay it aside. 10 Hold it up just a minute. 11 Senator Present. 12 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay that bill 13 aside, temporarily. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 15 aside temporarily. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 350, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number 18 2672, an act to amend the Education Law, in 19 relation to the apportionment of aid to certain 20 reorganized school districts. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 22 Explanation. Senator LaValle. 23 SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President. 2481 1 This legislation would add to the law dealing 2 with school district reorganization, a school 3 district that reorganizes -- a union free school 4 district that reorganizes with a nonoperating 5 school district. Most specifically, this 6 legislation deals with the situation in which 7 the South Manor School District, which is a 8 union free school district, reorganized with the 9 West Manor School District that sent about 50 10 students, after a vote by both the South Manor 11 School District and the West Manor School 12 District, understanding -- people having an 13 understanding that there would be incentive aid, 14 reorganization incentive aid, once such 15 reorganization took place. 16 Unfortunately, they found out 17 that the law did not specifically provide for a 18 non-operating school district; and, thereby, the 19 South Manor School District, the newly 20 reorganized district, is denied reorganization 21 aid. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 2482 1 Leichter. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Briefly on the 3 bill. We debated this last year. But I'm 4 troubled with the idea where people proceed 5 under a totally false assumption, which Senator 6 LaValle concedes was the case here, and we 7 should thereupon change the law because they 8 received wrong advice; they didn't understand 9 what was happening. I mean this is different 10 than where you have a single individual who may 11 not have been told what his or her rights were 12 under a pension system, and I think we have all 13 had a little problem with that. 14 But here, as I understand it, and 15 correct me, Senator LaValle, if I'm wrong, 16 people voted to consolidate not being aware of 17 the fact that they were not entitled to the 18 consolidation aid for the law just didn't 19 provide for it. 20 There must have been hundreds of 21 people. There must have been counsels. There 22 must have been other people who were advising 23 them, and the information may have been wrong. 2483 1 You say it was wrong. But are we as a 2 Legislature, are we as a state when somebody 3 gets up and makes a totally false statement and 4 says, "If you do this, you are going to get 5 state aid," and it's wrong, then people may 6 listen to that individual, they may do this act, 7 they find out they are not entitled to state 8 aid, we have to change the law? I'm troubled by 9 that, Senator. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 11 LaValle. 12 SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President. 13 On the bill. This legislation was filed because 14 individuals voted in good faith in what they 15 believed was a situation that a newly 16 reorganized district accepting 50 students from 17 the West Manor School District would yield 18 reorganization incentive aid. As a matter of 19 fact, and I think members here are well aware 20 that, today, there have been studies and calls 21 for reorganization of school districts 22 throughout this state. And in Suffolk County, 23 people use as almost a battle cry, "Remember the 2484 1 Alamo," "Remember the Maine," "Remember what 2 happened in South Manor," where two school 3 districts and the people in good faith voted to 4 reorganize and they got stiffed because someone 5 in reading the law said, Well, it could go 6 either way and if we only put in a provision to 7 clearly define that a nonoperating district 8 reorganizing with a union free school district 9 would receive incentive aid, then we can allow 10 this to happen. That was an interpretation by 11 the Department. 12 So I think it is very, very 13 unfair at a time when we're trying to get school 14 districts to reorganize, when we are trying to 15 get people to go the extra mile and bring school 16 districts together -- and let me tell you, 17 Senator Leichter, while today or at the time the 18 vote was taken we were talking about 50 19 students, this area -- had we not had the 20 reorganization to take place, this area is wide 21 open for development and that school district 22 would have gone from being a nonoperating school 23 district with 50 students to a school district 2485 1 with hundreds of students, and they would have 2 been forced into a situation to build buildings, 3 hire teachers, and we would have been moving in 4 just the direction we do not want to go. 5 So I think that this legislation 6 -- we passed it last year. This year, 7 Assemblyman DiNapoli and Assemblyman Sawicki in 8 the other house have sponsored this, and I'm 9 hopeful that we can pass this and get the 10 Governor to sign it not only because it will 11 provide the incentive aid that people thought 12 would be coming to the newly reorganized 13 district but because it sends the right signal 14 that the state will meet its commitments to the 15 people when they hold a vote to take a 16 particular action. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 19 Leichter. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Will Senator 21 LaValle yield? 22 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, he 2486 1 will. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 3 just want to clarify something. I said I will 4 accept your statement that people misunderstood 5 what the law was. Did anybody contact the 6 Department of Education and say, "If we do this, 7 will we be entitled to this consolidation aid?" 8 Did they get wrong information from the 9 Department of Education? If they did, I would 10 change my view, but did anybody ask the 11 Department? 12 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, as I 13 recall, this was not done -- this vote -- on a 14 whim and fancy of two districts, and we have had 15 discussions with the Department. I believe that 16 the Department probably is taking no position, 17 but I do not believe they are opposed to this 18 legislation. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: But, Senator, 20 my question is that when you come before us and 21 say, "Listen, hundreds of people made a mistake; 22 they didn't understand what the law was," what 23 did they do to try to understand the law? Who 2487 1 told them that you are going to get this aid? If 2 it was a government official, then, Senator, 3 maybe we're obligated. But if some guy gets up 4 on a stump and makes a perfectly ridiculous 5 statement, and we then have to change the law, I 6 don't see that. 7 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, 8 without first-hand knowledge, it is very 9 difficult to say who said what. But let me say 10 -- and just this very day, I had a meeting, my 11 office, school district, and people from the 12 Department. And the reason we had that meeting 13 today -- it's a separate matter -- is because 14 someone in the Department had said something and 15 the school district believed that it had the 16 authority to move ahead. The South Manor/West 17 Manor situation meets that test, and I told my 18 school districts unless you get it in writing 19 from the Department, unless you get it in 20 writing, it is just someone giving you their 21 view. And they may say, Well, I think it's all 22 right. I think it's aidable. But when we move 23 ahead, the counsel's office may have a different 2488 1 view. And I can tell you, and people who have 2 dealt with the Department will know, that an 3 assistant commissioner or a bureau chief will 4 give an approval where someone higher up or in 5 the counsel's office will say, "I'm sorry, you 6 gave the school district the wrong point of 7 view." 8 And that's really what I am 9 saying. I am saying that they understood the 10 Department to say that they were going to 11 receive incentive aid. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator, 13 as I understand what you just said before is you 14 have no proof, no knowledge, that anybody of the 15 Department ever said to them, You are going to 16 receive this aid. Furthermore, I agree with the 17 advice that you gave your constituents in a 18 totally separate situation, which is, get it in 19 writing. 20 But let me ask you something. If 21 we vote this bill, and it is passed by the 22 Assembly and it is signed into law, what is 23 going to be the cost of the consolidation aid 2489 1 that is going to have to be paid out of the 2 treasury of the state. 3 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, as you 4 know, incentive aid is paid both on operating 5 aid and also for any -- any building aid that 6 might come due. And for the '93-94 school year, 7 the operating aid that would be generated would 8 be 612,000, and the building aid would be 9 16,000, and then this would increase to about a 10 million dollars in operating aid thereafter and 11 about $27,000 in building aid thereafter for - 12 for a period of five years, a period of five 13 years. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: So we're 15 talking roughly - 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 17 Leichter. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: You two 20 are having a very nice conversation, and we 21 appreciated that. But if you could, direct your 22 questions through the chair. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: I think your 2490 1 point is well taken, Mr. President. I'm sorry. 2 I wonder if Senator LaValle will yield to 3 another question. 4 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, I will. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: So we're 6 talking somewhere, as I get it, of about 6 7 million to $7 million, a total of both operating 8 and capital construction aid. Senator, if that 9 money is paid to this school district, will that 10 not take money from other school districts under 11 the formula? 12 SENATOR LAVALLE: No, Senator. 13 Because one of the things that we do annually 14 with the state aid formula is that there are 15 provisions, as you see from this bill, that deal 16 with reorganization aid. We set aside within 17 the formula amounts of money in what we estimate 18 will be from possible reorganizations that will 19 take place across the state. So we don't put 20 zero in the account. We have to allocate some 21 monies for reorganization incentive aid. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 23 Leichter. 2491 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 2 President. Let me just point in reference to 3 the last question I asked Senator LaValle and 4 his answer that this is retroactive. It's sort 5 of like an ex post facto law, if you will, and 6 we certainly haven't put anything in 7 contemplation of a district that already 8 consolidated under the old law where they 9 weren't entitled to any money. So I think it 10 may very well impact on your individual school 11 districts. 12 But I revert again to the 13 question I raised which really troubles me and 14 leads me to vote against this bill, where there 15 is no credible proof whatsoever that any state 16 official misled these school districts, where 17 there is no proof that they made prudent 18 inquiries as to whether they were going to be 19 entitled to the consolidation aid. And while 20 Senator LaValle -- and I'm sure that he states 21 accurately his knowledge that people voted on 22 the mistake of law, do we now have to change the 23 law and saddle the state with a burden of $7 2492 1 million? 2 Now, maybe the law should have 3 been changed before. Maybe this school district 4 and other school districts should have been 5 entitled to avail themselves of consolidation 6 incentive. But that was not the law. I mean I 7 think there's a basic principal involved here 8 that goes beyond the school district wanting to 9 do a nice favor for Senator LaValle's 10 constituents. He would look good. I'm sure he 11 looks good there already because he is an 12 excellent legislator, but I think you have a 13 real problem if you proceed on this basis and 14 change the law retroactively. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 16 the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 20 the roll. Oh, before you call the roll, there 21 is a local fiscal impact note here at the desk. 22 You can call the roll. Go ahead. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2493 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. Nays 2 3. Senators Leichter, Onorato and Solomon 3 recorded in the negative. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 5 bill is passed. 6 Senator Present. 7 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 8 Can we return to Calendar 347, Senator Holland's 9 bill that was temporarily laid aside, earlier. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Sure. 11 Senator Holland -- we'll call up 347, Mr. 12 Secretary. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 347, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 47, 15 authorize the Salvation Army Eastern Territory 16 School for Officers Training to change its name. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 19 Gold. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 21 yield to one question? 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, there is 2494 1 a memo, as you know, from the state Education 2 Department, and they claim that their concern is 3 the word "college"; that they wouldn't object to 4 "institute" or some other type of word being 5 used, and I just would like your comments on 6 their memo. 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: There are two 8 business schools that are called colleges, 9 Senator. They are the Jamestown Business 10 College and the Albany Business College. There 11 are 22 Salvation Army schools throughout the 12 world, and just the four in the United States 13 are not called colleges. The four Salvation 14 schools are in Georgia, California, Illinois and 15 Suffern, New York, in my district. 16 They were called colleges until 17 1956 when the state requested that they not be 18 called colleges any more. I would just ask that 19 this bill be passed. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 22 the last section. 23 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President. 2495 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Oh, 2 does somebody want to speak on this? 3 Senator Stavisky. 4 SENATOR STAVISKY: Will the 5 Senator please yield for a question? 6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Sure. 7 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator, what 8 are the standards and requirements that an 9 institution of higher learning needs in order to 10 be incorporated as a college that this 11 institution fails to meet? Simple question. 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, I 13 don't know. This school does not meet it, you 14 are absolutely correct. But this is just a 15 conformity situation. As I said, there are 22 16 throughout the world. We would just like to 17 make this be done also. We're not asking for 18 anything. They're not asking for anything from 19 the state or the federal government. 20 SENATOR STAVISKY: I have no 21 objection providing that there is not a 22 misleading of the public, the consumers, the 23 students who go to an institution known as a 2496 1 college, and are given at least a reasonable 2 assurance by the standards imposed by the state 3 Education Department that it meets the 4 requirements for being called a college; 5 otherwise, we can pick out many wonderful places 6 in the state of New York. Poof! You're a 7 college. And I don't think we should have poof 8 you're-a-college legislation if they fail to 9 meet requirements. What about faculty 10 standards? What about library standards? What 11 about the resources that are needed? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, this 13 is a training school to train officers of the 14 Salvation Army. It's basically a religious 15 institution training school. It's not a regular 16 college, not intended to be, does not pretend to 17 be, and will accept no students other than the 18 ones that are provided for the Salvation Army. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 20 the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 2497 1 the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55, nays 1. 4 Senator Jones recorded in the negative. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 6 bill is passed. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 365, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number 9 1536, an act to amend the Correction Law. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 11 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 12 temporarily. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 14 aside temporarily. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 367, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2754, 17 an act to amend the Correction Law and the Civil 18 Practice Law and Rules. 19 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explanation. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 21 Explanation. Senator Cook. 22 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 23 The bottom line on this bill is that it 2498 1 basically treats the college education provided 2 to inmates in correctional facilities as a 3 college loan and requires that those persons who 4 have benefited from that service that's provided 5 while they're in prison, once they are released, 6 should repay that loan not unlike every other 7 student in the state who requires a loan for 8 attending college and who has to pay for it once 9 they're graduated. The bill provides a 10-year 10 repayment period, which I think is in line with 11 most other kinds of college loans, and I think 12 it's only a reasonable thing to do. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 14 Stavisky. 15 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. 16 President. I want to commend Senator Cook, 17 because this legislation at least recognizes the 18 opportunity for someone who is incarcerated to 19 receive some instruction and, therefore, 20 hopefully to begin the process of rehabilitation 21 after release from the correctional facility, 22 and I think it's a much better bill than the 23 legislation which would simply deny to anyone in 2499 1 the correctional facility the opportunity for 2 retraining. So I want to commend the sponsor on 3 this forward looking step. 4 There is only a problem with 5 regard to the reality of the repayment 6 schedule. I am not certain that I could 7 guarantee or anyone in this room could guarantee 8 that an individual recently discharged from a 9 correctional institution would be given a salary 10 sufficient to guarantee the repayment within six 11 months after release from a correctional 12 facility, presumably for the commission of a 13 felony. 14 I wish that society were as 15 enlightened as the Senator assumes with the 16 sponsorship of this piece of legislation, but I 17 don't think a lot of people will be rushing up 18 to an ex-inmate and say, "Look, take this high 19 salaried job; we want to hire you immediately 20 after your release." 21 The chances are, Senator, that 22 notwithstanding your desire to see them begin 23 repaying the cost, there will not be that 2500 1 opportunity, and then they will be in default 2 for failing to repay the tuition or to start 3 repaying the tuition within six months. 4 On the one hand, your legislation 5 wants to offer them hope that they can be 6 prepared for a better way of life; and that part 7 of the legislation, that assumption in the 8 legislation is excellent. But what you give 9 with one hand, you take back prematurely with 10 the other by stating that within six months 11 there must be a repayment of this legislation. 12 And that part of it, I think, for a sponsor who 13 is a realist, who is a practical legislator, and 14 who knows with regard to your constituents how 15 they struggle to prepare a budget. And 16 sometimes in rural areas, they may be cash 17 poor. They may not have the money. A farmer 18 may not have the money to begin repayment of a 19 loan. And, surely, the same standard applies to 20 someone who was recently discharged from a 21 correctional facility. 22 I think, Senator, your timetable 23 is wrong. I think your decent impulse should be 2501 1 commended. But in its present form, this 2 legislation should not be supported. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 4 Dollinger. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 6 President. Will the sponsor yield to a couple 7 questions? 8 SENATOR COOK: Sure. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 10 Cook. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through you, 12 Mr. President. Senator Cook, do you know what 13 the total amount of funds that are expended 14 under this provision of the Correction and Civil 15 Service -- I assume it's the Correction Law. Do 16 you know how much is expended in tuition 17 payments to colleges for the education of 18 inmates? 19 SENATOR COOK: Well, one of the 20 interesting things, Senator, at this point is 21 that that seems to be a very fuzzy issue because 22 the Corrections Department doesn't seem to have 23 real good numbers on it. Some of the money 2502 1 comes through the university system. 2 Apparently, most of it through Higher Education 3 Corporation. I -- well, I will leave it at 4 that. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: As a 6 follow-up. Again, Mr. President, if the sponsor 7 will yield to another question. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 9 Cook, would you yield again? 10 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What I'm 12 really trying to figure out, Senator Cook, is 13 what is the average expenditure on behalf of an 14 inmate so I would get some sense of what kind of 15 liability an inmate would face after the payment 16 period begins. Do you know? 17 SENATOR COOK: Well, Senator, 18 considering that the tuition at a state 19 universities about -- what? It's $2,000 a year 20 now. 2500, is it, Senator LaValle, per year? 21 You are talking about a four-year degree. You 22 are talking about $10,000. Recognizing the 23 inmate is already getting free room and board 2503 1 because they are in a state institution that 2 what we're really talking about there is a 3 reimbursement for the education costs. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just again, 5 one question, Mr. President, through you for the 6 sponsor. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 8 Cook. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So I 10 understand this, Senator Cook, what is the 11 consequence of defaulting on that loan? 12 SENATOR COOK: Well, the same 13 consequence as there is for any other student, 14 Senator. They would be subject to civil follow 15 up, lawsuit presumably, to recover the money the 16 same as somebody who made a college loan through 17 a bank or anybody else and defaulted on the 18 repayment. Then whoever the money is owed to 19 goes after them and tries to recover it civilly. 20 That's the means through which it's done. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 22 President, on the bill. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 2504 1 bill, Senator Dollinger. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I, I guess, 3 join Senator Stavisky. I think this is an 4 interesting idea and certainly one I understand 5 the purpose of which. I think it's a laudable 6 one. I'm not quite so sure how it's going to 7 work in practice. 8 I think that facing an inmate 9 with a $10,000 bill because of their college 10 education that they have taken advantage of 11 during their period of their incarceration puts 12 a significant disincentive for them to go to 13 college, to take advantage of those courses, if 14 we're simply going to charge it back. 15 There are enough problems, it 16 seems to me, with those who are attempting to 17 get back into the flow of society after release 18 from incarceration; and to put a $10,000 19 assessment against them or loan against them to 20 require that they repay it, otherwise they are 21 going to be subject to a judgment -- they are 22 probably not going to have a lot of assets -- it 23 seems to me the practicality of this, to agree 2505 1 with Senator Stavisky, is that you end up 2 saddling someone with a substantial loan and 3 then not having the assets to levy against or to 4 move against in the event there is a default. I 5 think that that may create a significant 6 disincentive to inmates attempting to get an 7 education during the period of their 8 incarceration. 9 When you combine that with, as 10 the sponsor has said, a fuzzy understanding of 11 the cost, I'm not so sure we can put that fuzzy 12 number into a loan and I'm not so sure we can 13 quantify exactly what the cost is here. 14 So I think it's a good idea. I 15 think it perhaps needs some further refinement. 16 I'm going to vote against it at this state. But 17 I'm willing to look, if this doesn't pass, at 18 other innovations along this line that would 19 require maybe some flat fee to be charged 20 against the inmate, maybe using some other form 21 of income that they generate during the period 22 of incarceration as a way to begin to paying it 23 off. 2506 1 I think it's a good idea. It 2 moves in the right direction. I just see too 3 many practical problems, Mr. President, at this 4 time. 5 Thank you. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 7 Stachowski. 8 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 9 President. I would just like to comment on the 10 bill that last year an identical bill passed 11 45-14, and Senator Connor, Galiber, Gold, 12 Halperin, Korman, Leichter, Mendez, Montgomery, 13 Ohrenstein, Paterson, Smith, Stavisky, Waldon, 14 and Weinstein voted in the negative. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: You can 16 read the last section. 17 Oh, Senator Cook, before we go - 18 I'm sorry. Senator Nozzolio is 19 next. 20 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 21 President. 22 Mr. Cook, I rise to support your 23 bill that I ask this body not to only recognize 2507 1 the wisdom of its sponsor but to pass it by 2 acclamation; that just turn around and speak to 3 one of those college students who may be 4 watching the proceedings today. And during 5 their tenure in college, particularly upper 6 classmen who have seen in this four- or 7 five-year period the Regents Scholarship 8 eliminated, TAP tuition assistance significantly 9 reduced, and at the same time SUNY tuition 10 rising rapidly, not to mention what has happened 11 at our private schools; that those law-abiding 12 scholastically excellent citizens of our state 13 have found it more and more difficult and have 14 found college education a goal that becomes 15 harder and harder to realize. 16 At the same token, we have prison 17 inmates in this state who are getting two and 18 three not undergraduate degree but graduate 19 degrees at taxpayers' expense. 20 Ladies and gentlemen, my 21 colleagues, Mr. President. There is a measure 22 whose time has long since come. There are those 23 of us who may favor even the elimination of 2508 1 these programs until such time as our students 2 at SUNY can continue to have laboratory 3 equipment financed by the state, that tuition 4 increases wouldn't continue to escalate, that 5 Regents Scholarships would be reinstated. Then 6 after those objectives are achieved, we can talk 7 about free college education to prison inmates. 8 Unfortunately, Mr. President, we 9 don't have that luxury; nonetheless, Senator 10 Cook has taken a giant step in the right 11 direction, and I applaud him for this measure. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 13 Cook, and then Senator Paterson. 14 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. I 15 would just like to indicate that there really 16 isn't any great mystery about how to compute the 17 cost because every college has a schedule of 18 credit hour charges, and part-time students are 19 charged on that basis, so it's not at all 20 difficult to compute that on an individual 21 basis, although coming up with that kind of 22 global number, since it doesn't exist, is more 23 difficult. 2509 1 To state the obvious perhaps, 2 however -- and I think Senator Nozzolio already 3 has stated that. I think that there are very 4 few college students in this state who given the 5 opportunity to obtain a college loan for the 6 value of whatever the tuition would be so long 7 as they were given free room and board, as are 8 the people who are residing in the prisons, 9 there are few people who wouldn't leap at that 10 opportunity. And I just think that to continue 11 to provide this free education to inmates within 12 the prison system and to require the rest of the 13 population to go through all of the struggle 14 that they go through and that their families go 15 through right now to pay for those educations, I 16 think that that defies logic. 17 And this bill simply tries to put 18 everybody on somewhat of a level playing field. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 20 Paterson. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 22 President. When we are living in a state that 23 as of a study in 1987 demonstrates that the 2510 1 eight least-funded school districts produced the 2 eight school districts that had the highest 3 dropout rate and also the poorest attendance 4 rate, I think that we can establish that there 5 is a definite correlation between education in 6 this state and the likelihood of those to drop 7 out of the school system, not to drop out to get 8 jobs or to drop out to other endeavors but to 9 drop out to the streets and wind up being 10 incarcerated in our institutions. 11 I would like the record to 12 reflect that in the '70s there was a celebrated 13 case, the State versus Cero, and the objective 14 and the dicta in the decision in that case ruled 15 that our institutions, our correctional 16 institutions in this state were not 17 rehabilitating; they were only incarcerating. 18 And so I would suggest that the 19 education that we provide in prisons is 20 something that is one that is aimed in the 21 direction of ameliorating the problems that 22 those who have had the misfortune of being 23 incarcerated have, which is generally that they 2511 1 are undereducated and that they have sought 2 crime as a solution to problems where there were 3 definitely other solutions. 4 So while I don't think that we 5 are apt to forgive those who have committed 6 crimes against society, at that point that they 7 are being incarcerated I don't understand why we 8 would not want to encourage them to create an 9 opportunity for themselves when they leave, so 10 we don't have to spend hundreds of millions of 11 dollars right now incarcerating 60,000 people in 12 this state. 13 In 1970, there were 12,385 who 14 were in the New York State prison system. That 15 figure has quintupled in 23 years. So it would 16 seem to me that we would be finding some 17 alternatives to simple incarceration; and 18 perhaps as we extend sentences, which most of 19 our laws tend to do now, we are only taking 20 people away from their communities for longer 21 periods of time, away from their family roots, 22 away from the minimum training and skills 23 necessary for a person to operate in society. 2512 1 So I would suggest that 2 instilling a burden of giving someone the bill 3 for their education makes the same sense as 4 giving them a bill for their room and board and 5 asking them to pay that back when they leave our 6 prison system. So I urge all my colleagues to 7 vote against this legislation. I don't think it 8 would do any good if it was passed. It would 9 only add to the encumbrances of those who have 10 already paid their debt to society; and if we 11 are going to waive an additional debt that they 12 while in incarceration did seek an education to 13 try to give themselves a chance in society when 14 they got out, I for one would be willing to 15 forgive that debt lest we be paying for their 16 incarceration again when they commit further 17 crimes against our society. 18 For those college students who 19 have the difficulties of meeting tuition, of not 20 being able to afford college even with TAP, that 21 is a separate situation. And I think we should 22 all be fighting, if necessary, to create the 23 minimum standards that would be required for 2513 1 people to pay for their college education. But 2 for those who are in prison, I think we should 3 actually encourage them to do something so that 4 when they get out of prison we don't have to see 5 them back in those confines again. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 7 Lack. 8 SENATOR LACK: Thank you, Mr. 9 President. I just wanted to make sure that I 10 was hearing from my colleagues on the other side 11 of the aisle what I thought I was hearing, and I 12 think Senator Paterson and Senator Dollinger 13 indeed set that forward; that if you pay taxes 14 in the state and you send your children to 15 college and you take loans out and you don't pay 16 that you can be forced into bankruptcy, and 17 that's okay. But if you are incarcerated and 18 you're in prison and you don't get a free 19 education, that's okay. But if you're 20 incarcerated and you're in prison and you are 21 asked to pay for your education the same way 22 that any of us in this chamber have to pay for 23 the education of our children, that's not okay 2514 1 to ask somebody to pay that cost back. 2 Mr. President. If that's what 3 the colleagues on the other side of the aisle 4 believe, I hope each and every one of them vote 5 against this bill. 6 Thank you. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 9 Leichter. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Will Senator 11 Lack yield, please? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 13 Lack, will you yield? 14 SENATOR LACK: Yes. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, do 16 you believe that the inmate should pay for 17 educational courses that they receive or 18 training courses they receive or vocational 19 courses they receive other than college 20 education? 21 SENATOR LACK: No, Senator, I 22 don't. I think there's a logical cut-off point, 23 and I would think higher education would 2515 1 certainly be that. I have no problem whatsoever 2 with vocational programs or training programs or 3 to learn a skill or a trade once you are no 4 longer incarcerated. But, Senator, I have a 5 very large problem with someone receiving a free 6 higher education courtesy of the state of New 7 York for someone who has broken society's rules 8 and has gotten incarcerated to begin with. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: If the Senator 10 would yield? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 12 Lack, would you yield again to another 13 question? 14 SENATOR LACK: Yes. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Are you saying 16 supplying costs for vocational training even 17 though it would be a cost that ordinarily we 18 would have to pay for for our children, let's 19 say a secretarial course or a computer course or 20 something of that sort, that you wouldn't make 21 them pay; but you feel that once -- once it 22 becomes past high school, once it doesn't 23 involve a vocational course, then it becomes to 2516 1 you this matter of great and clear principle? 2 SENATOR LACK: For the very 3 simple reason, Senator, if you'd read Senator 4 Cook's bill you'd know why. Senator Cook's 5 bill talks about the payment of tuition 6 for college courses, which I assume and that's 7 what I think Senator Cook meant, which are 8 offered, and again I will assume, by some system 9 connected to the State University of New York or 10 Empire State College for which there is an 11 identifiable cost that would exist within the 12 correction system, and a cost allocation has to 13 be paid by the Corrections Department probably 14 to some agency of government or, indeed, to some 15 private school apparatus, as well. 16 The vocational education programs 17 that you are talking about which already exist 18 within the correctional system are part of the 19 correctional system and part of society's charge 20 to try to rehabilitate someone who is an inmate 21 in our correctional system, and for that I have 22 no problem for it. 23 I do have a problem when you want 2517 1 to extend it, and I assume your colleagues on 2 your side of the aisle want to extend that, to a 3 free public higher education while you are 4 incarcerated as an inmate in one of our state 5 penitentiaries. I think that's wrong. We don't 6 happen to have a university system -- somebody 7 correct me if I'm wrong. We don't happen to 8 have a state correctional university system that 9 is part of our prison system. If you want to 10 sponsor a bill to establish one, by all means. 11 Please put it in, and let's see what happens to 12 it. 13 Senator Cook is referring to 14 costs, charges, money, that has to be paid by 15 the state Corrections Department, I would assume 16 raised by taxes upon all the citizens of this 17 state that go out of the corrections system to 18 some public or I guess even possible private 19 university for which tuition has been paid on 20 behalf of an inmate. That is a lot different 21 than inhouse vocational and education programs 22 that are part of the correctional system. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 2518 1 Stavisky. 2 SENATOR STAVISKY: There is one 3 provision of this bill that almost defies 4 explanation, and that is the provision that the 5 repayment shall begin with one of two 6 possibilities, either after discharge from the 7 correctional facility, six months, or six months 8 after the completion of the educational 9 program. Where will that prisoner still in 10 prison get the money? I know "whichever is 11 later." I understand that. But there is that 12 little klinker of language that you begin the 13 repayment as one option six months after the 14 completion of the educational program even if 15 you are still in prison. 16 What are we starting, a new 17 system of debtors prison? We're going to have a 18 separate compartment of the correctional 19 facility for debtors prison by those prisoners 20 who are not only there for the purpose of being 21 in prison for the crimes for which they were 22 committed but now, perhaps, for failure while 23 they are still in jail to repay. 2519 1 I think the philosophy is flawed, 2 and I do not see any volunteers. I want someone 3 to sign a sheet saying we will hire ex-inmates 4 within six months after their discharge. We 5 will have the clerk prepare a list of those who 6 from the entire Capital District, not just the 7 Legislature, are volunteering to perform this 8 act of mercy. Do I hear volunteers? I have not 9 heard anyone rushing forward to make that 10 offer. 11 The alternative, by putting 12 pressure, maybe that while the education has 13 been provided to try to change the ex-convict's 14 way of life, the only place they may be able to 15 get the money to repay the tuition is by going 16 back to a life of crime, and that surely defeats 17 the whole purpose of a well-intended 18 legislation. I keep complimenting the sponsor 19 for recognizing that education may help someone 20 begin a new life. 21 But in order to meet the 22 requirements of this legislation and to start 23 repaying six months after you are out of prison 2520 1 even if you don't have a job, you go back to 2 reaching for the gun, you go back to a life of 3 crime. Do you look for your ex-felon friends 4 and ask them to start up a new gang? 5 I don't think that that is in the 6 best interests of a law-abiding society. 7 Because there are no options. You are either 8 hired to do a job, a legal job, or you are 9 affluent which means you stashed away money that 10 was not returned, and I assume the authorities 11 are pretty good at finding money that's been 12 stashed away; or if you haven't stashed away any 13 money, you start going back to a life of crime 14 to meet this lawful obligation that is proposed 15 in this legislation. 16 It is fatally flawed. And, 17 really, you can accomplish the same result by 18 recognizing reality which this bill does not. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 20 Waldon. 21 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 22 much, Mr. President. On the bill. 23 Sometimes our shortsightedness in 2521 1 this chamber boggles my imagination. Those of 2 you who have gone into the prisons understand 3 that it is a place where there must be 4 cooperation between the prisoners, the guards 5 and the administration. And if you don't have 6 it, you create danger for the administration, 7 for the guards, and for the prisoners. 8 One of the things that the 9 superintendent of a prison will do, if at all 10 possible, is to create activities to keep the 11 prisoners busy. Because idle hands are the 12 devil's playground. Someone goes through the 13 vocational phase of training and he now aspires 14 to do something else to fill the 15 or 20 years 15 he has left on his sentence with meaningful 16 activity. And then we, as a legislative body, 17 are so myopic and so tunnel-visioned that we are 18 going to charge him, the person who is capable 19 of going into an educational situation and 20 bettering his mind for that improvement. 21 What you are going to do is cause 22 that prisoner to really be mean-spirited and 23 cause him to go against the system, and you're 2522 1 going to create another thorn in the side of the 2 administration and the guards who must have a 3 compatible relationship with the prisoners in 4 order for the system to proceed. 5 So from a very practical point of 6 view, I would encourage us to defeat this. 7 Because I'm sure someone like Tom Coughlin and 8 those who administer DOCS for our state don't 9 want problems which we create. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 11 Mega. 12 SENATOR MEGA: Mr. President. I 13 have listened to the debate as all of us that 14 are seated here, and I guess what's discouraging 15 about a debate on a bill such as this nature is 16 that we all want the same thing. It's how we go 17 about trying to get these things done, 18 particularly as far as our prisons are 19 concerned, as far as our young people are 20 concerned, the education and so on. 21 For whatever it is worth, we know 22 that this is a one-house bill. It will never 23 see the light of day in the other house, and 2523 1 maybe there should be some discussion on whether 2 or not we could do something like this. Because 3 I heard Senator Stavisky say a couple of times 4 that it is laudable that Senator Cook was trying 5 to do something on this issue. 6 The sad part about it is, you 7 know, by the time 85 to 90 percent of these 8 young men and women get into our prison system, 9 it is too late to do anything for them. The 10 problem has started at the very beginning, where 11 the foundation is supposed to have been laid, 12 where they are supposed to have gotten a proper 13 elementary school education and the sense of 14 values that we all talk about. That's where 15 it's all done at the very beginning. 16 And I have the opportunity now, 17 like some of you, to speak not only as a 18 legislator and as father but as a grandfather, 19 where you are given a second chance to look at 20 youngsters when they are developing. 21 You know, when youngsters are 22 developing when we're parents, we miss a lot 23 because we're so busy trying to make a living or 2524 1 doing the kinds of things that we do as young 2 parents. But now as a grandparent you zero in 3 and you say, "My! At the age of 2, at the age 4 of 3, at the age of 4, at the age of 5, how 5 smart this youngster is, how much this youngster 6 has absorbed." And that's where we are in 7 trouble. 8 Many of our young people are 9 destroyed before they ever get into the 10 educational system, before they ever get that 11 foundation that we are supposed to give them, 12 and now they go on to whatever life they go 13 onto, and they wind up in the prison system, and 14 now we are talking about higher education. 15 And we give everybody secondary 16 education. They're entitled to it, primary and 17 secondary. And now we're giving prisoners 18 higher education. Fine. There's nothing wrong 19 with that. We want to do that. We want to try 20 and make them productive. We want them to go 21 back into society so that they don't continue on 22 the ways of crime, and we're trying to instill 23 some values. 2525 1 So what is so terrible if we say 2 to the prisoner, "Hey, we have given you an 3 education; now, hopefully you'll get back...." 4 And, Senator Stavisky, I wish we could do what 5 you indicated, but in the real world we know 6 that doesn't happen. And if we can give them 7 that sense of value and say: Now you are going 8 out. Hopefully, you are going to make it, and 9 maybe you can pay back for what we have given to 10 you. 11 I don't see anything wrong with 12 trying to do that, and maybe we could do it 13 better, but I don't see anything wrong with the 14 process. Let me refer to page 2, line 50. It 15 says, "If any borrower dies or becomes 16 permanently and totally disabled, to the extent 17 that the borrower receives Social Security 18 disability benefits under the federal Social 19 Security Act prior to the repayment of the loan 20 in full, any unpaid principal balance of the 21 loan shall be discharged." I don't know if any 22 other loan would indicate that this be so. It's 23 possible that all loans that are made may have 2526 1 something like that in there. But we were 2 trying to make this something that makes sense. 3 And then I'll refer to page 3, 4 "The Department shall adopt rules and 5 regulations consistent with law to effectuate 6 the provisions of this section." I would hope 7 that they would adopt rules and regulations that 8 would make some sense so that this process is 9 not counterproductive. 10 And sometimes I think when we 11 talk about prisoners' rights and trying to help 12 prisoners, it sort of becomes a political 13 issue. It shouldn't be a political issue. 14 Because I know, as I started saying, that we 15 want the same thing on both sides of the aisle. 16 We want the system to work. We want to try to 17 make it better. But let's try to work together 18 to do that, and I think that's where things go 19 amiss in this process. 20 Again, I don't see anything wrong 21 with the bill. Could we make some adjustments? 22 Yes, we could. If the Assembly was serious 23 about doing something, they could negotiate it 2527 1 and try to make the kind of adjustments that 2 could make everybody vote for this bill. 3 But based on what we have now, I 4 don't see anything so terribly wrong in voting 5 and supporting this bill. 6 Thank you, Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 8 Espada. 9 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, Mr. 10 President. 11 Senator Mega is a practical and 12 reasonable legislator. And haven't quite 13 reached the point where I can enjoy his other 14 status of being a good grandfather, but I can 15 tell you that I share the empathy. I share that 16 sense of pay-back to society for what society 17 has given to you. Whether you are in an inner 18 city neighborhood or whether you are in prison 19 serving your time, you need to pay back. 20 But you broadened this argument 21 -- I think appropriately so -- to other areas, 22 and I differ with you on that we want the same 23 thing. You know, we study what people say, we 2528 1 study legislation, we study its aims, we seek to 2 see what its repercussions will be. None of us 3 can really guarantee results, but we try to look 4 into that crystal ball and see what -- you know, 5 what our actions will cause out there. 6 And I can tell you that what 7 actions we have taken here in these chambers 8 year in and year out; where this year, in 1993, 9 we have recognized a poverty index in school aid 10 distribution. And I ask what about those 11 primary grades, those secondary grades where our 12 children that Mr. Paterson -- Senator Paterson 13 refers to, eight or nine school districts that 14 make up the population of these prisons, should 15 they seek a rebate? Should they seek redress for 16 being in a classroom with 40 other children or 17 being in an annex where they don't even have 18 public toilets? 19 I think that when we weigh this 20 whole issue of investment and outcome and when 21 we look at what these same kids who are then 22 adults who live in prisons with no toilets in a 23 10 by 10 with somebody else, again still over 2529 1 crowded, and somehow, incredibly, they find the 2 internal fortitude, the desire, the ambition, to 3 gain a college education and we take all of that 4 effort, we take all of this balancing of 5 equities, and we come out with, "You owe us 6 $10,000; you better pay back in six months," or 7 else what? Or else you give them more prison 8 time? 9 I mean what is the outcome that 10 we seek. And that's where I tend to disagree 11 that we want the same things. Because on this 12 side of the aisle, we want a solution to the 13 problem. This legislation and the comments in 14 support of it don't seem to seek that kind of 15 solution out. I wish it would. Because then I 16 think it wouldn't be a one-house bill, and I'm 17 sure that many of us on this side would lead a 18 march to the other house demanding a real 19 solution to this problem. It just isn't found 20 in this legislation. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 22 Paterson. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Mr. 2530 1 President, I was making some notes before when 2 Senator Lack and Senator Mega were speaking and 3 I did have some comments, but I see that Senator 4 Espada has come up here and taken those notes 5 from my desk, and it leaves me with very little 6 else to add. 7 But what I would like to say is 8 that for those individuals who are the parents 9 of children who have gone through the public 10 school systems or private systems and have 11 expended a great deal of resources, who spent a 12 lot of money in tuition and have suffered for 13 that fact, I think that is something that we 14 have to address. It is something that we are 15 certainly trying to address on both sides of the 16 aisle. 17 But we are talking about people 18 who are serving a sentence in our state prisons 19 for a crime that they have committed against 20 society. In addition to the fact that we are 21 looking to deter them from committing these 22 crimes again and we are also seeking retribution 23 for the value of the crime that they committed, 2531 1 we are hoping to rehabilitate them so that we 2 don't have to have as a society their problem 3 again. And I don't see how this problem is 4 being solved at any point by giving them a bill 5 for whatever education they receive while they 6 are in the prison system. 7 From 1977 to 1983, there were 8 165,000 jobs created in New York City. Only 9 40,000 of those jobs went to New York City 10 residents. Between 1985 and 1990, the number of 11 jobs held by New York State residents rose by 12 5.3 percent but -- the number of jobs created in 13 the state rose, but the number of jobs held by 14 state residents decreased by the same fashion. 15 The reason is because it doesn't take a high 16 school education to conduct most business in the 17 state any more. It takes a college education. 18 The United States Army estimates 19 that you have to be in the mid-year of your 12th 20 year, in other words, your senior high school 21 year, in order to discharge all the functions 22 necessary as a member of the United States Army 23 or the Navy or the Air Force or the machines. 2532 1 So the point is that perhaps there is not a 2 necessity to let individuals receive what would 3 be an advantage while they are in our penal 4 system, but at the same time the minimum 5 training and skills required to do a job are 6 going to need in the 1990s a college education. 7 But somehow, we are going to not 8 allow that to happen unless the individual 9 agrees to pay this debt back starting from six 10 months after they are discharged from a 11 penitentiary. And somehow, they are supposed to 12 get a job with a criminal record on their resume 13 and pay back the money that they accrued 14 receiving the education. I don't think that is 15 workable. I don't think it is sensible, and I 16 don't think it is achievable. 17 And the fact is that if people 18 could receive a college education and start 19 employment in our society, I am willing to 20 overlook the expense that the state created to 21 try to give them that education. To speak 22 otherwise, to speak in such a scrupulous, abject 23 concentration on fairness makes me wonder why 2533 1 every school pupil in this state doesn't receive 2 the equal amount of money for educational 3 purposes. It should not be our interest or our 4 aim to fund school districts this dis 5 proportionately and then be this dissatisfied 6 when we see the results. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 8 Dollinger. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 10 President, I'll be brief. I was heard on the 11 bill earlier. 12 I just want to dovetail with the 13 comment that my colleague, Senator Paterson, 14 mentioned. 15 We've heard talk about 16 comparisons between people that pay college 17 tuitions in this state and the financing that we 18 currently have for those who are inmates who 19 seek college education. 20 Mr. President. I have worked 21 with inmates in the state prison system. I have 22 represented them in civil rights actions. I've 23 represented them in the context of disputes 2534 1 involving their correctional activities. I, 2 frankly, met a number of inmates who acquired 3 education during their period that they were 4 incarcerated. 5 My experience is two-fold, Mr. 6 President. One, the education that they get 7 puts them in a position where they can come out 8 the door of a prison and begin the slow process 9 of trying to make something with their lives. 10 My experience is that a year or two years after 11 leaving the doors of our prison system, they are 12 not in a position to pay back a $10,000 loan. 13 They don't have an asset. They don't have the 14 income stream. They are trying to use their 15 income stream to pay for housing, to pay for 16 shelter, to pay for food, so that they've got a 17 way to make ends meet. The last thing they want 18 to do is have to pay $10,000 back to the state 19 of New York. 20 I also suggest, Mr. President, 21 that as a practical matter, the workability of 22 this is that no inmate is going to sit down and 23 say, "Okay, I'll go to college and I'll sign a 2535 1 loan agreement to pay it back." It's just not 2 going to happen. If you told them, "Sign this 3 document; we will give you a college education, 4 it's going to cost $10,000," my experience 5 suggests that their reaction will be, "I'm not 6 going to do that. I don't want to incur that 7 liability. When I get out of prison, I got to 8 pay back $10,000." 9 Who is going to counsel them on 10 signing these promissory notes payable to the 11 state of New York? My opinion based on my 12 experience in the prison system of this state 13 and its inmates is, if you put this restriction 14 into effect, you might as well scrap the college 15 education program. Because I just don't see 16 that inmates in this situation are going to put 17 their name on the dotted line to pay back money 18 that they don't have then, that they are not 19 going to get until some significant period of 20 time after they get out of incarceration. 21 I think this all ties back, Mr. 22 President, with the concept of the workability 23 of this bill. I see the purpose. I see the 2536 1 intent. I think it's laudable. I join Senator 2 Stavisky. I understand what Senator Cook is 3 trying to do. But in this particular instance 4 this physical bill is not going to work, and 5 we've got to find something better that will 6 work. That's the objective criteria that we 7 ought to use in trying to achieve a laudable 8 balancing of the interests of the state in being 9 repaid this money and interest of the inmate in 10 having a chance at re-establishing his life 11 after incarceration. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 13 Montgomery. 14 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Mr. 15 President, would Senator Cook yield for a 16 question? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 18 Cook, would you yield to Senator Montgomery? 19 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 20 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you. 21 Senator Cook, you indicate in your memo of 22 support that there would be no fiscal 23 implications or "significant savings to the 2537 1 state, no fiscal implications to the 2 localities." But at this point in time, you are 3 unable to say, to have any further estimate of 4 the savings than that? You say significant. 5 SENATOR COOK: The Corrections 6 Department doesn't seem to have precise numbers 7 as to how many people are involved and how many 8 hours they are taking in a given time. So I 9 really can't give you a specific amount money. 10 And I really -- to -- if I see 11 may - 12 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Sure. 13 SENATOR COOK: You know, the 14 point of this bill is not -- nobody is 15 contending we are going to save the state a ton 16 of money. What we are trying to simply say is 17 -- you are trying to teach people to be 18 responsible citizens, then let them be 19 responsible. If they want a college education, 20 they do what everybody else does. They take out 21 a loan and they pay it back. 22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right. 23 I just wanted to clarify that this is basically 2538 1 a philosophical statement with regard to your 2 wish for prisoners to be responsible citizens. 3 Now, I notice in the legislation, 4 Senator Cook, if you would yield for one further 5 clarification for me. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 7 Cook. 8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: On page 3, 9 Section 2 D, under "repayment," am I looking at 10 the correct version of the bill? It says that 11 repayment of a loan -- could you explain to me 12 what happens? How that works? What happens if 13 one does not pay back the loan? 14 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 15 The same thing happens if my son defaults on his 16 college loan. 17 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: So they get 18 a bad credit rating. 19 SENATOR COOK: Exactly. 20 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: And they 21 can't borrow any further? 22 SENATOR COOK: Exactly. 23 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right. 2539 1 Mr. President, briefly on the legislation. 2 I think that certainly it's 3 admirable that Senator Cook feels very strongly 4 and continues to bring this legislation back 5 year after year. We note that it has died every 6 year since, well, '91, '92, '89, '88. So there 7 is consistency. Senator Cook continues to bring 8 it forth. But for all of the reasons that many 9 of our colleagues have indicated, it's certainly 10 not legislation that I'm not sure even Senator 11 Cook believes will work. Certainly, we don't 12 believe -- a number of us don't believe that it 13 will work. 14 And I personally think that it is 15 not a message that is going to incur any 16 significant advantage for us as far as the 17 constituency is concerned. We now have 60,000 18 people incarcerated in the state of New York. I 19 don't know how many of those people are in there 20 for ten years or more, but it is my 21 understanding that the majority of them will be 22 coming back into the communities anyway within 23 two to five years. So those are the ones that 2540 1 certainly I am very interested in because they 2 come back into my district and the districts of 3 many of us in this room, and I would like to 4 know what we can do for those. 5 I am certainly not opposed to 6 educating people in prison so that when they do 7 come back, whenever, three years, two years, 8 five years or ten, that they bring something 9 with them from a system where many of them have 10 spent the most vital years of their lives. 11 So, Senator Cook, I admire your 12 tenacity and your consistency, but I certainly 13 hope that again this legislation is defeated. 14 Thank you, Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 16 the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 18 act shall take effect on the first day of 19 January next succeeding the date on which it 20 shall have become a law. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 22 Daly to explain his vote. 23 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. I 2541 1 find it difficult to accept the premise that 2 those who are receiving a college education 3 while incarcerated for a crime are worthy of 4 better treatment by the state and from the state 5 than those good citizens who have not been a 6 burden to society. 7 I vote yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 9 DeFrancisco. 10 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I would 11 like to explain my vote. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 13 DeFrancisco to explain his vote. 14 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I don't 15 think anybody in this room would want to deprive 16 anyone from a college education whether they are 17 in prison or not. And unbelievably, although it 18 may be unbelievable to some people in this room, 19 whether you are in prison going to college or 20 whether you are out of prison going to college, 21 there is no guarantee when you get done with 22 college that you are going to get a job, and 23 that's true whether you are incarcerated or 2542 1 you're not. 2 There's many people who don't 3 want to face an $8,000 to $10,000 bill each year 4 to go to college, and they make a decision not 5 to do that, and that decision can be made not to 6 do it, but to incur that kind of bill, whether 7 you are in prison or whether you are not. And 8 there are many out of prison that make that 9 choice. 10 In addition, many people who go 11 on and take college loans out don't get the 12 opportunity to pay them back because they can't 13 get a job, and they are sued, and that is true 14 whether you are in prison or you're not if this 15 bill is passed. And if you don't pay the bill 16 and you are sued, you have a bad credit rating. 17 That's whether you're in prison if this bill 18 passes, or not. 19 So I think, basically, all this 20 bill does, despite all the rhetoric is it 21 basically says we're going to treat everybody 22 the same way. You'll have the same decision 23 about a college education and the same 2543 1 responsibilities whether you are in prison or 2 not. 3 And I vote yes. 4 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 6 Connor to explain his vote. 7 SENATOR CONNOR: Yes, to explain 8 my vote. Mr. President, I'm voting no. But 9 something Senator DeFrancisco said just clicked 10 when he got up and said I don't think there is 11 anyone in this room that would deny anyone a 12 college education whether they are incarcerated 13 or not. Senator, you're new. Just wait. There 14 is a bill we see every year from one of your 15 colleagues over there that would forbid any 16 prisoner incarcerated in a state prison from 17 taking any college credit courses. So you are 18 wrong, but you'll see. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 20 Results. 21 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 22 the negative on Calendar Number 367 are Senators 23 Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Gold, Halperin, 2544 1 Leichter, Markowitz, Montgomery, Ohrenstein, 2 Paterson, Smith, Stavisky and Waldon. Ayes 44, 3 nays 13. 4 (Whereupon, Senator Daly was in 5 the chair.) 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: The bill 7 is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 378, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 3204. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Lay it 11 aside. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 379, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number 14 3691, an act to amend the Social Services Law. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Read the 16 last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: The bill 2545 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 384, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 2583, 4 an act to amend the Education Law. 5 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explanation. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: 7 Explanation. 8 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President. 9 This bill is a bill which would prohibit the 10 expenditure of TAP monies on behalf of somebody 11 who is incarcerated on an indeterminate sentence 12 in our correction system. 13 The intention of the bill, 14 basically, is to make those monies available to 15 other students, other people who are not behind 16 the walls, people who are on the other side of 17 the walls who are struggling and unable to 18 obtain a college education at this time. 19 Mr. President. I'll respond to 20 any questions anybody may have. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 22 Stachowski. 23 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 2546 1 President. I'd just like to point out that a 2 similar bill passed last year, 44 to 11, and 3 Senators Connor, Galiber, Gold, Halperin, 4 Korman, Leichter, Markowitz, Montgomery, 5 Ohrenstein, Paterson, and Smith voted in the 6 negative. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Read the 8 last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 15 the negative on Calendar Number 384 are Senators 16 Connor, Espada, Gold, Halperin, Leichter, 17 Markowitz, Montgomery, Ohrenstein, Paterson, 18 Smith, Stavisky and Waldon. Ayes 45, nays 12. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: The bill 20 is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 385, by Senator Daly. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Lay it 2547 1 aside. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 386, by Senator Seward, Senate Bill Number 3109. 4 SENATOR KUHL: Lay it aside. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Lay it 6 aside. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 388, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 3515-A, 9 an act to amend the Education Law. 10 SENATOR SMITH: Explanation. 11 SENATOR KUHL: Lay it aside. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Lay the 13 bill aside. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 393, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 3182, 16 Agriculture and Markets Law. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Read the 18 last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2548 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56, nays 1. 2 Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: The bill 4 is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 413, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate 7 Bill Number 4363, an act to amend the Public 8 Health Law. 9 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explanation. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: 11 Explanation. 12 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 13 President. This bill relates to health reform 14 and hospitals serving low income and Medicaid 15 patients. It extends to December 31, 1993, the 16 current Supplementary Low Income Patient 17 Adjustment, also known as SLIPA, retroactive to 18 April 1 of '93, and also provides for a transfer 19 of $18 million in unallocated reserve balances 20 from the bad debt and charity care regional and 21 statewide pools to be allocated $8 million for 22 the SLIPA payment and $10 million for additional 23 hospital payments and health reforms pursuant to 2549 1 NYPHRM V. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 4 Leichter. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 6 would Senator Tully yield? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 8 Tully. 9 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 10 President. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, we 12 instituted in this Legislature, and you were 13 very helpful in that effort, a program called 14 SLIPA -- I can't tell you what the exact name 15 is. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Supplementary Low 17 Income Patient Adjustment. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Right. And 19 this was to take care of hospitals that had a 20 very high proportion of Medicaid patients and I 21 guess also persons who are unable to pay their 22 medical bills, but I guess it was really based 23 on Medicaid, and I know I have two such 2550 1 hospitals in my district, Presbyterian and 2 Roosevelt St. Luke's. Great hospitals and 3 provide wonderful service to the whole state, 4 but who have in their immediate community many 5 people in need of medical care and unable to pay 6 for it and, therefore, eligible for Medicaid 7 which had been a terrific burden for the 8 hospital. 9 Now, Senator, you have come up 10 with this bill which adds, in addition to SLIPA, 11 a large sum of money for additional assistance 12 to hospitals, and this has created a problem 13 with the Assembly. The Assembly hasn't gone 14 along. The money isn't in the budget for it. 15 How are we going to resolve this? 16 Because, Senator, aren't we hurting those very 17 same hospitals? I mentioned two of them. There 18 are other great hospitals that are being 19 seriously damaged by our inability to reach a 20 consensus on continuing the SLIPA program. 21 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 22 President. Senator Leichter, you raise a very, 23 very significant question. In the budget 2551 1 negotiations that were just concluded, as you 2 know, the Senate put this bill forward which had 3 absolutely no effect on the budget but would 4 have resolved the problems that you have 5 discussed as well as provided the needed money 6 for the hospitals for the development of NYPHRM 7 V legislation. 8 There is no question that the 9 hospitals in our state, besides the SLIPA 10 hospitals -- and as you know, you alluded 11 earlier, there are some 33 hospitals, 16 12 voluntary and 17 public, which get SLIPA 13 funding. This does not refer to the public 14 hospitals only to the voluntary hospitals. 15 Because the public hospitals are otherwise 16 covered separate and apart from this 17 legislation. 18 When this matter was placed on 19 the table, the Assembly took it off the table. 20 And in its place, they put in a bill providing 21 for SLIPA. But, along the lines of what the 22 Governor has done thus far in respect to health 23 reform, it sounded very good, but it had no 2552 1 provision for money. The only money that was 2 allocated for any of the institutions that you 3 have referred to, and some of them are wonderful 4 institutions like Columbia Presbyterian, was the 5 money that was contained in this proposal, in 6 this bill, and the proposal we advanced in the 7 negotiation, in the budget negotiation, and the 8 Assembly took it off the table. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 10 Leichter. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Would Senator 12 Tully yield for another question? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Will you 14 yield, Senator? 15 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, I will. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator, 17 I think it is a fact that if we continued SLIPA 18 that the money is available because it gets paid 19 out of the bad debt and charity pool, does it 20 not? 21 SENATOR TULLY: The Assembly 22 bill, Senator Leichter, made no provision for 23 taking it from the bad debt and charity care 2553 1 pool. The Assembly proposal was merely a 2 provision for SLIPA but with no money, no 3 funding. It was, to me, a gesture, a symbolic 4 gesture, if you will, of saying to the 5 hospitals, We understand your problem but we're 6 not putting any money in. 7 Candidly, my understanding is 8 that's coming from the second floor and not from 9 the Assembly. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I - 11 if you will yield again, Senator Tully. And I 12 must tell you I have not seen the Assembly 13 bill. I talked to some of the people in the 14 Assembly. I talked to some of the 15 representatives of the hospitals. I don't think 16 that those people would do a symbolic act. 17 Certainly, the lobbyists are very clear that 18 they need money for these institutions. 19 I mean if the sole problem is, 20 Senator, that you think by their merely 21 continuing the SLIPA program without identifying 22 that the program will continue to be paid as it 23 has been up to now out of bad debt and charity, 2554 1 I assume that change can readily be made. But I 2 think it's fair, is it not, that the reason that 3 the Assembly did not go along with your bill is 4 because you have now added a large sum of money 5 for the NYPHRM reimbursement. 6 Maybe we ought to do that. It 7 may not be a bad idea. But until that issue 8 gets worked out, I think it's unfortunate to tie 9 it to the SLIPA program because the result is 10 that we have a stalemate. We have a deadlock on 11 this issue, gridlock, if you will. And, 12 meantime, these hospitals, good hospitals whose 13 need you recognize, are not receiving monies 14 that they desperately need. 15 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 16 President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 18 Tully. 19 SENATOR TULLY: Senator Leichter, 20 the money for SLIPA, up until this proposal, 21 never came out of the bad debt and charity care 22 pool. It always came out of the general fund 23 out of the budget. And our Governor in his 2555 1 infinite wisdom in describing his budget did not 2 make any allocation for SLIPA hospitals. 3 We are only talking about the 4 period from April until December 31st. It was 5 only a requirement of a little less than $8 6 million. $8 million is the figure we have in 7 the budget. It was seven-point-some-odd million 8 dollars. That would have been an easy thing for 9 the Governor to have included in his budget if 10 he so chose. He did not so choose and led us to 11 believe that he was going to have a health 12 reform message at a later date providing for 13 this type situation. And when we got the health 14 reform message, it had a lot of wonderful 15 comments and statements in it and promises of 16 reform, but it provided nothing in the funding 17 area. 18 It's because of that that we had 19 to make the recommendation to take it from the 20 bad debt and charity care pool help the 21 hospitals. Because in the interim, so you 22 should understand, the hospitals have a gun 23 appointed at their head by the federal 2556 1 government. It's an enormous gun. 2 Because in the deficit proposals, 3 in the major presidential proposals of our 4 President Clinton, our New York hospitals for 5 the period from 1994 until 1998, he is 6 describing additional cuts from 5.1 billion to 7 5.7 billion for the hospitals in New York 8 State. This is the sword of Damocles hanging 9 over their head. 10 Now, this is something that has 11 to be rectified and rectified immediately. The 12 impasse, the blockage, if you will, came from 13 the other side, from the Assembly, which always 14 put that money in the budget. But this year I 15 have a feeling they were directed: We're not 16 going to get it in as an "add" on your part 17 because the second floor doesn't want it. 18 We now have a bill that puts it 19 in, puts the money in, puts the funding source 20 for it, and also provides for what the President 21 has done and the gun he has pointed at our 22 hospitals in this state. 23 I might say parenthetically that 2557 1 when you ask what the hospitals think about, I 2 just quote a portion of a letter received from 3 the Presbyterian Hospital, the one you referred 4 to, dated April 8, 1993. And they say 5 specifically in this letter, "Now we have to 6 deal with the painful consequences of the 7 Assembly's failure to negotiate a solution." 8 And that's right in their letter, and they know 9 it and I know it, and I'm telling you so you'll 10 know it. 11 Really, it's a shame that the 12 Assembly chose not to put money in the budget 13 for this particular situation. We think the 14 only way to do it is through this particular 15 bill. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 18 Leichter. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Just 20 briefly on the bill. 21 Senator Tully, I don't know, you 22 know, with this finger pointing going back and 23 forth who is right and who is wrong. All I know 2558 1 is that as far as the public is concerned, as 2 far as the consumers of health care are 3 concerned, as far as the providers of health 4 care are concerned, they are looking to this 5 Legislature, they are looking to this government 6 to come up with a solution. 7 And the sort of battles that go 8 on here, often turf battles -- and I don't mean 9 to imply in any sense that you are not dedicated 10 to trying to do what needs to be done to help 11 our hospitals. But the fact is that this is an 12 internal battle which is causing grievous harm. 13 We have these hospitals. I 14 mentioned two of them, great teaching 15 hospitals. There are -- I think you mentioned 16 30 or something like that, all of them trying to 17 provide service to people who need medical care 18 and who can not pay for it or receiving Medicaid 19 and, therefore, the institutions are not fully 20 compensated. 21 We have seen these hospitals go 22 into a virtual state of insolvency. We had a 23 situation where some of these hospitals were 2559 1 unable to buy medical supplies because the 2 vendors wouldn't provide them with credit any 3 longer. 4 We have an obligation to resolve 5 this issue. It's a terribly important program. 6 I'm going to support the bill because I would 7 love to see more money in there for all 8 hospitals. But, Senator, I think that there is 9 an obligation on the part of all of us, and 10 certainly our colleagues in the Assembly too, 11 and the second floor, to resolve this issue and 12 to resolve it quickly. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 14 Mega. 15 SENATOR MEGA: Will Senator Tully 16 yield? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 18 Tully, will you yield? 19 SENATOR TULLY: I will, Mr. 20 President. 21 SENATOR MEGA: Senator Tully, 22 will this bill help the hospitals that need 23 SLIPA funding such as Luther Medical Center in 2560 1 my district and the hospitals that were 2 mentioned by Senator Leichter? 3 SENATOR TULLY: It will, Mr. 4 President, including Brooklyn Hospital, as well. 5 SENATOR MEGA: Thank you. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Read the 7 last section. 8 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Will 9 Senator Tully yield for a question? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 11 Tully, will you yield to a question? 12 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 13 President. 14 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I'm confus 15 ed about something and maybe you can 16 help me out. 17 SENATOR TULLY: Senator, I have 18 difficulty hearing you. 19 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I'll talk 20 up. Is the problem that the monies going into 21 bad debt and charity pool that is spread much 22 more broadly is objected to by the assembly and, 23 therefore, the monies for SLIPA, which are 2561 1 separate from bad debt and charity, are being 2 held up because the bad debt and charity pool 3 shouldn't be so broad in their opinion? 4 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 6 Tully. 7 SENATOR TULLY: To answer the 8 question, it's as simple as this, Senator 9 Oppenheimer. Traditionally, SLIPA funding has 10 been provided for in the budget. And in the 11 negotiations with our house and the Senate, we 12 have agreed with the SLIPA funding and the 13 hospitals have been funded. 14 This year, no money was provided 15 in the budget by the Governor for SLIPA funding 16 even though the bulk of it relates to hospitals 17 which deal with low income and Medicaid patients 18 primarily through the city and areas that 19 normally you would expect the Governor to 20 support. 21 No money was placed in there. 22 Therefore, the Senate looked into this, our 23 negotiators. We ascertained there was a way to 2562 1 provide the funding without affecting the 2 budget, and that was through the bad debt and 3 charity care pool based on dollars that went 4 back to 1983, dollars that already had been set 5 aside and were not attacked by the very purpose 6 for which the pool was set up. So they were 7 available. 8 What more potent use could you 9 find for those dollars than the ones that are 10 the subject of this bill. This was advanced in 11 negotiation. Advanced in negotiation with the 12 Assembly, and they took it off the table 13 completely. 14 Now, I agree completely with 15 Senator Leichter in the causes that he has 16 advanced and in all the issues that he's 17 advanced, in that, this is something that should 18 and must be done. And we have provided a method 19 to do it that doesn't affect the budget, doesn't 20 affect the taxpayers and solves the problem. 21 And I really fail to understand 22 how it wasn't resolved initially at budget 23 negotiations and why these hospitals and 2563 1 institutions have to wait and have to be on a 2 25-day lag as a result of administrative delay 3 waiting for these dollars. It shouldn't 4 happen. 5 This bill solves the problem, and 6 I urge all of my colleagues to pass it. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 8 Halperin. 9 SENATOR HALPERIN: Senator Tully, 10 would you please yield to a question? 11 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 12 President, I will. 13 SENATOR HALPERIN: Thank you, 14 Senator. The way you described this bill, you 15 are talking about it as the SLIPA bill. But 16 that is a total of $18 million appropriated out 17 of the general fund in this bill. Are you 18 saying that all of that money goes to SLIPA? 19 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 21 Tully. 22 SENATOR TULLY: When I described 23 this bill at the outset, I said this bill 2564 1 related to health reform, hospitals, and serving 2 those hospitals which serve low income and 3 Medicaid patients. The health reform portion of 4 it deals with hospitals in totality in this 5 state as well as SLIPA hospitals again. 6 So SLIPA gets a double hit. It 7 gets the first hit of the $8 million, and it 8 gets part of the $10 million that's associated 9 with the NYPHRM reform. 10 SENATOR HALPERIN: So what is 11 really happening here is that the SLIPA issue 12 has been combined with another issue, and that 13 issue provides additional funding not only to 14 what we might refer to as the SLIPA hospitals, 15 but also to other hospitals. Is that correct? 16 SENATOR TULLY: That's correct, 17 Mr. President. 18 SENATOR HALPERIN: Can you tell 19 us how much of the $18 million would go to the 20 SLIPA program? 21 SENATOR TULLY: $8 million is 22 directly allocated to the SLIPA program, and 10 23 million for additional hospital payments and 2565 1 health reform, part of which goes to SLIPA 2 hospitals, as well. 3 SENATOR HALPERIN: Of the $10 4 million can you tell us how much of that goes to 5 the SLIPA hospitals? 6 SENATOR TULLY: That, Mr. 7 President, will be part of NYPHRM and will be 8 the subject of bipartisan negotiation. 9 SENATOR HALPERIN: So, then, at 10 this point in time, we don't really know the 11 answer to that question, is that correct? 12 SENATOR TULLY: Only as a total 13 amount but not as to which amount does go to 14 each hospital. 15 SENATOR HALPERIN: Also, Senator 16 Tully, if you will be so kind as to respond to 17 another question. 18 As I heard you describe the 19 history of the budget negotiations, it was 20 something to the effect of that the Assembly 21 didn't want to go along with putting the SLIPA 22 money into the budget and that there was some 23 kind of pressure coming from the Governor not to 2566 1 do that? 2 SENATOR TULLY: That's my 3 understanding, Senator Halperin. 4 SENATOR HALPERIN: Would you say 5 that it was ever the position of the Senate 6 Republicans to put SLIPA money into the budget 7 without linking it to the additional $10 million 8 that we see it linked to in this bill? 9 SENATOR TULLY: The answer to 10 that question is no, it was not ever the Senate 11 position to do it separately. We advanced both 12 because they were both needed. Because in the 13 intervening time during which the negotiations 14 took place, the information came to the Senate 15 as to the President's proposal and the impact it 16 was going to be to the hospitals. And I might 17 tell you that the proposal we've advanced today 18 is supported by the Hospital Association of New 19 York State. 20 SENATOR HALPERIN: Thank you very 21 much, Senator. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 23 Halperin on the bill. 2567 1 SENATOR HALPERIN: On the bill. 2 Setting aside the issue of the need of the 3 hospitals of this state for additional monies 4 because, clearly, it is difficult for the 5 hospitals of this state to continue to function 6 under existing circumstances and they could use 7 more monies -- I dare say we could say the 8 schools could use more money. We could say that 9 any number of other worthy causes in this state 10 could use more money. 11 But the truth of the matter is 12 that the SLIPA issue, as I understand it, was 13 attempted to be addressed by the Assembly in the 14 budget as a separate issue. And to try to 15 somehow say that the Assembly backed off funding 16 SLIPA through the general fund is perhaps 17 revisionist history which is not something we 18 should be dealing with on the same day as we 19 passed a resolution commemorating the Holocaust, 20 because we are constantly fighting the revision 21 of history. And yes, here we see what I started 22 to hear but I'm glad we cleared it up, some 23 revisionist history. Because it was always, as 2568 1 I understand it, the position of the Assembly 2 and the desire of the Assembly to include the $8 3 million. 4 As a matter of fact, I think, 5 according to some of the proponents of the SLIPA 6 program, that $7 million would probably do the 7 trick, and yet it was always the position of the 8 Senate Majority, as I understand it, to link the 9 two as you seem to be demonstrating in this 10 bill. 11 The problem is not that we would 12 not want to give more money to hospitals but 13 that we obviously have a lack of money in the 14 budget, that this money is not provided for in 15 the fiscal plan, and that what we really should 16 be doing is looking for a source of funding 17 which, as you indicated, has been proposed to be 18 the bad debt and charity pool, and then we will 19 know that we have a source of money to pay for 20 SLIPA. 21 Whether or not we should be 22 trying to provide additional monies through 23 NYPHRM when you can't even tell us how that 2569 1 money will be distributed to hospitals, I think 2 is a separate issue. Maybe there are those of 3 us who would be convinced that if we did have 4 additional monies we could provide it to the 5 hospitals through the NYPHRM formula. 6 But I just want to make it clear 7 that we are doing more in this -- even though 8 you did allude to it in your opening 9 statement -- that we're doing more in this bill 10 than simply providing money to the SLIPA 11 program. 12 Nevertheless, in an effort to try 13 to keep this process moving, if the passage of 14 this what I dare say will be a one-house bill 15 will help to focus on the issue, then 16 understanding what we're doing, and not thinking 17 it's only for SLIPA, not thinking that the 18 Assembly wouldn't go along with perhaps $7 19 million for SLIPA, then I will vote for this 20 legislation as well. But I think that we 21 really should be joining together, both houses 22 with the Governor, in coming up with something 23 we can all live with and that will be funded. 2570 1 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 2 Solomon. 3 SENATOR SOLOMON: Mr. President. 4 Will Senator Tully yield please. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 6 Tully, would you yield? 7 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 8 President. 9 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, 10 Senator Halperin in his question just asked you 11 about the percentage that would go to SLIPA 12 hospitals from the $10 million additional, in 13 addition to the addition to the eight, and you 14 said that would be determined by the NYPHRM 15 negotiations. But I would like to know, in 16 terms of this bill, on page 1, line 8, it says 17 through December 31, 1993. Is not that the same 18 date that NYPHRM expires? 19 SENATOR TULLY: That's correct. 20 SENATOR SOLOMON: So can't we 21 determine what percentage of money that $10 22 million would be able to go to SLIPA based upon 23 the current formula of NYPHRM? 2571 1 SENATOR TULLY: That part is no 2 difficulty, Mr. President, because that part 3 refers to existing SLIPA allocation which is 4 done by formula in the Public Health Law which 5 is the existing NYPHRM IV statute. 6 SENATOR SOLOMON: Correct. So of 7 that ten million, roughly, what additional sum 8 to the best of your knowledge, would go towards 9 SLIPA hospitals? 10 SENATOR TULLY: There are three 11 separate portions to this particular bill, 12 Senator, and let me break them down for you. 13 Section 1 extends SLIPA from 14 March 31 to December 31. 15 Section 2 provides for the 16 transfer to Medicaid, if you will, the medical 17 assistance program, general fund, of $18 million 18 from the undistributed balance of the bad debt 19 and charity care pools. 20 Now section 3 appropriates the 21 $18 million dollars to the Department of Social 22 Services Medicaid program to provide $8 million 23 in additional SLIPA payments and $10 million for 2572 1 additional reimbursement to the hospitals and 2 health-related services pursuant to a chapter of 3 the laws of 1993 affecting general hospital 4 reimbursement. That chapter will be NYPHRM V. 5 So it does not relate to the existing one. 6 SENATOR SOLOMON: Okay. We have 7 to pass NYPHRM V. 8 Thank you, Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 10 Espada. 11 SENATOR ESPADA: Will Senator 12 Tully yield to a question, please? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator, 14 will you yield to a question? 15 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 16 President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 18 Tully yields. 19 SENATOR ESPADA: The discussion I 20 think has been fruitful in that now I understand 21 this breakout of the eight and ten. Because 22 certainly with respect to SLIPA and the $8 23 million, I would certainly support that. I 2573 1 don't think that any abrupt change in 2 reimbursement mechanisms is fair to anyone. 3 However, there are those of us 4 that look to NYPHRM V as perhaps affording us 5 some real opportunity to change the course of 6 health care at least as it relates to deficit 7 financing and the provision of quality primary 8 care at the local neighborhood level. 9 I ask you by separating out this 10 $10 million and calling it health care reform, 11 have we not limited ourselves in our ability to 12 think through how best to deliver primary care, 13 neighborhood-based care which is now, when it's 14 provided at the hospital emergency room and 15 out-patient clinics, a much more costly venture 16 than we would all want. Perhaps you can address 17 yourself to that point, please. 18 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 19 President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 21 Tully. 22 SENATOR TULLY: Senator Espada, 23 you raise a very, very good point. 2574 1 The fact of the matter is that 2 the $10 million, in addition, that's generated 3 for NYPHRM is directed directly in that area to 4 prevention to primary care. As you know, there 5 will be a proposal coming from the executive I 6 expect within the next week or two dealing with 7 NYPHRM. Within that same framework of time or 8 somewhere nearby, he will have the proposal of 9 the Council on Health Care Financing which will 10 deal with NYPHRM, as well. 11 Both of those will not be too 12 disparate in the sense that they will be dealing 13 with health care reform as you've suggested, 14 pointing the gun at primary care and pointing 15 the gun at prevention. Because that's the goal 16 we have to attack, together with quality of care 17 and affordability. 18 All of that will be encompassed 19 within NYPHRM dealing with health care reform 20 which it never really did before because NYPHRM 21 was dealing strictly with hospital financing and 22 hospital funding. And this time, it's going to 23 be a little different. 2575 1 SENATOR ESPADA: If I may, Mr. 2 President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 4 Espada on the bill. 5 SENATOR ESPADA: No, a follow-up 6 question. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Will you 8 yield again? 9 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, I will, Mr. 10 President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 12 will yield. 13 SENATOR ESPADA: Just so I can be 14 totally comfortable with this. Can I take that 15 to mean that in your platform, in your health 16 care reform proposals, that you will see an 17 opportunity for diagnostic and treatment 18 centers, other non-traditional non-hospital 19 providers, to share in what is now bad debt and 20 charity pool deficit financing? Can I take 21 that? 22 SENATOR TULLY: The answer to 23 that question is yes, Mr. President. 2576 1 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you very 2 much. 3 SENATOR TULLY: You're welcome, 4 Senator Espada. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Read the 6 last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: The bill 14 is passed. 15 Senator Stafford. 16 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. 17 President. I wish to call up my bill, Print 18 Number 3287. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Secretary 20 will read. 21 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 22 Stafford, Senate Bill Number 3287, legalize, 23 validate, ratify and confirm the acts of the 2577 1 town board, county of Clinton. 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. 3 President. I now move to reconsider the vote by 4 which this bill was passed. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll on 8 reconsideration. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: It is 11 restored to third reading. 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr. 13 President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator 15 Present. 16 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 17 There being no further business, I move that we 18 adjourn until tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senate 20 stands adjourned until tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. 21 (Whereupon, at 5:33 p.m., the 22 Senate adjourned. ) 23