Tuesday, April 27, 1993

2709 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 April 27, 1993 10 3:35 p.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 SENATOR CHRISTOPHER J. MEGA, Acting President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 2710 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senate 3 will come to order. Please stand for the Pledge 4 of Allegiance. 5 (Whereupon, the Senate joined in 6 the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. ) 7 In the absence of clergy, may we 8 bow our heads for a moment of prayer. 9 (Whereupon, there was a moment of 10 silence. ) 11 Reading of the Journal. 12 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 13 Monday, April 26. The Senate met pursuant to 14 adjournment. Senator Kuhl in the Chair upon 15 designation of the Temporary President. The 16 Journal of Sunday, April 25, was read and 17 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Hearing 19 no objection, the Journal stands approved as 20 read. 21 Presentation of petitions. 22 Messages from the Assembly. 23 Messages from the Governor. 2711 1 Reports of standing committees. 2 Secretary will read. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 4 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 5 following nominations: 6 Member of the State Medical 7 Advisory Committee to the Department of Social 8 Services, Randall D. Bloomfield, M.D., of 9 Brooklyn. 10 Member of the State Camp Safety 11 Advisory Council, Meir Frischman, of Brooklyn. 12 Member of the Small Business 13 Advisory Board, Paul Kessler of Island Park. 14 Member of the Central New York 15 Regional Transportation Authority, Robert C. 16 Sprague of Syracuse. 17 Member of the Board of Visitors 18 of the New York State Home for Veterans and 19 Their Dependents at Oxford, Lily Bishop, of 20 Brooktondale and Mary Smack of Binghamton. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: On the 22 nominations. All those in favor, aye. 23 (Response of "Aye.") 2712 1 Those opposed, nay. 2 (There was no response. ) 3 The nominations are carried. 4 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 6 Daly. 7 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. On 8 page 16, I offer the following amendments to 9 Calendar Number 346, Senate 3860, and ask that 10 said bill retain its place on the Third Reading 11 Calendar. I do that for Senator Skelos. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without 13 objection. 14 SENATOR DALY: On behalf of 15 Senator Levy, on page 25, I offer the following 16 amendments to Calendar Number 186, Senate Print 17 Number 2000, and ask that said bill retain its 18 place on the Third Reading Calendar. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without 20 objection. 21 Senator Saland. 22 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President. 23 On page 22, Calendar Number 456, Senate 3286, I 2713 1 would like to place a sponsor star on that bill. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 3 is starred. 4 Senator Present. 5 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 6 I move that we adopt the Resolution Calendar 7 with the exception of Resolution 1135. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: All those 9 in favor, aye. 10 (Response of "Aye.") 11 Those opposed, nay. 12 (There was no response. ) 13 The Resolution Calendar is 14 adopted. 15 Senator Tully. 16 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President. I 17 believe I have a resolution at the desk, 1135. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Secretary 19 will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 21 Resolution 1135, by Senator Tully, recognizing 22 the week of May 6th through the 12th as Nurses 23 Weak in New York State and honoring the eight 2714 1 individuals selected as Regional Nurses of 2 Distinction. 3 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President. 4 May I have the resolution read in its entirety. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without 6 objection. 7 THE SECRETARY: Whereas, the week 8 of May 6th to May 12th, 1993 is Nurses Week in 9 New York State. 10 The nurses of New York have, by 11 dedicating their lives to the health and dignity 12 of their fellow New Yorkers, contributed 13 significantly to the well-being of the citizens 14 of our state. 15 The New York State Legislature 16 developed the Nurse of Distinction Award Program 17 to pay tribute to New York State's registered 18 professional nurses for their steadfast 19 commitment in the support of the health and 20 betterment of fellow New Yorkers. 21 The outstanding achievements of 22 thousands of our state's registered professional 23 nurses have been acknowledged through the 1993 2715 1 Nurse of Distinction Award Program, and 319 2 distinctive nurses were nominated for the 3 award. 4 Eight Regional Nurses of 5 Distinction were selected by nursing peers from 6 throughout the state for their professional 7 excellence and unequivocal dedication in support 8 of the health and betterment of their fellow New 9 Yorkers. 10 Now, therefore be it resolved, 11 that this legislative body pause in its 12 deliberations to express its deep respect and 13 appreciation to all New York State's 14 distinguished nurses and to recognize the unique 15 contributions made by the eight Regional Nurses 16 of Distinction: 17 Dorothy A. Pezzoli, Department of 18 Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Northport; 19 Leah Epstein Harrison, Montefiore 20 Medical Center, Bronx; 21 Sharon Paul, Brooklyn Hospital 22 Center, Brooklyn; 23 Johanna Lee, Nyack Hospital 2716 1 Certified Home Health Agency, Valley Cottage; 2 Laurie J. Murphy, Ellis Hospital, 3 Schenectady; 4 Sondra O. Pruden, Broome County 5 Health Department, Binghamton; 6 Karen Hibbard, Highland Hospital, 7 Rochester; and 8 Marilyn R. Englert, Department of 9 Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Buffalo. 10 And, be it further resolved, that 11 this legislative body seek to encourage 12 statewide recognition of those valued nursing 13 professionals serving our communities in both 14 institutional and noninstitutional settings; and 15 Be it further resolved that this 16 legislative body pause in its deliberations to 17 acknowledge the week of May 6 through May 12, 18 1993 as Nurses Week in New York State; and 19 Be it further resolved, that 20 copies of this resolution, suitably embossed, be 21 transmitted to the eight 1993 New York State 22 Legislature Regional Nurses of Distinction with 23 our pride and gratitude. 2717 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 2 Tully. 3 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 4 President. A group of more than 400 very 5 special New Yorkers is with us here in Albany 6 today and tomorrow for the fifth New York State 7 Legislators Nurse of Distinction Conference. 8 The conference culminates the 9 Nurse of Distinction Award Program year. I have 10 been honored to be one of the legislative 11 sponsors for the program since its inception in 12 1989, and am very pleased to have been named by 13 Senate Majority Leader Marino earlier this year 14 to become the legislative coordinator. 15 Over the course of the five years 16 of the program, more than 2,000 of our state's 17 professional nurses have been recognized for the 18 important contributions they have made in 19 establishing the excellent standards of medical 20 care we share in New York State. 21 On the Senate calendar today is 22 the resolution previously read acknowledging the 23 up coming Nurses Week in New York State and all 2718 1 of the 319 nurses from throughout our state be 2 ing honored at the Nurse of Distinction 3 Conference. 4 Eight of the 319 nurses nominated 5 by their facilities for this recognition have 6 been chosen as Regional Nurses of Distinction. 7 They represent eight geographic areas of our 8 state, and I would like to introduce them to you 9 at this time. 10 From Long Island, Dorothy Pez 11 zoli, from the Northport V.A. Medical Center. 12 From Greater New York Region 1, 13 which includes Richmond, New York and Bronx 14 Counties, Leah Epstein Harrison, from Montefiore 15 Medical Center in the Bronx. 16 From Greater New York Region 2, 17 which includes Kings and Queens counties, Sharon 18 Paul, from the Brooklyn Hospital Center. 19 From the Northern Metropolitan 20 Region, Johanna Lee, from the Nyack Hospital 21 Certified Home Health Agency. 22 From the Northeastern Region, 23 Laurie Murphy, from Ellis Hospital in 2719 1 Schenectady. 2 From the Central New York Region, 3 Sondra Pruden from the Broome County Department 4 of Health in Binghamton. 5 From the Finger Lakes Region, 6 Karen Hibbard, from the Highland Hospital in 7 Rochester. 8 And from the Western New York 9 Region, Marilyn Englert from the Buffalo V.A. 10 Medical Center. 11 Congratulations to each of you 12 and our deepest thanks for the excellent work 13 you are doing to enhance the quality of life for 14 our state's residents. 15 Mr. President. At this time, I 16 would like to offer to any and all of my 17 colleagues the opportunity to join me in 18 sponsoring this resolution, and I would hope you 19 would extend the full greetings of the house to 20 our wonderful Nurses of Distinction. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Thank 22 you, Senator Tully. 23 Senator Stachowski. 2720 1 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: I rise 2 joining with Senator Tully in wishing all of the 3 Nurse of Distinction winners our 4 congratulations. 5 And I would like to make one 6 comment to them that I made to them out in the 7 hallway. I have always felt that nurses are 8 underpaid and in some cases underappreciated. 9 And I only hope some day the rest of us will all 10 appreciate that and we'll be able to get them 11 more money. 12 Thank you. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Thank 14 you, Senator Stachowski. 15 Any other Senator who would wish 16 to speak on the resolution? 17 The resolution is open at the 18 desk. All Senators who wish to be on the 19 resolution will indicate to the Secretary that 20 they wish to be on the resolution. 21 Senator Tully, thank you for the 22 resolution and thank you for presenting the 23 Distinguished Nurses to this body. 2721 1 And on behalf of the entire body 2 and on behalf of the Majority Leader, Senator 3 Marino, we welcome you. We congratulate you for 4 what you do. You are on the front lines of 5 health care in a service that is needed and 6 given to our constituents. So we welcome you 7 and wish that you continue to be in this 8 profession as long as you desire, and we give 9 our best wishes not only to you but to all the 10 nurses of the state that you represent, and 11 congratulations. 12 (Applause) 13 All those in favor of the 14 resolution, signify by saying aye. 15 (Response of "Aye.") 16 All those opposed, nay. 17 (There was no response. ) 18 The resolution is unanimously 19 adopted. 20 Senator Present. 21 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 22 I believe there are some reports from standing 23 committees at the desk. May we have those read, 2722 1 please. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Yes. 3 Secretary will road. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mega from 5 the Committee on Judiciary reports the following 6 bill directly for third reading: 7 Senate Bill Number 4595, by 8 Senator Marino and others, proposing an 9 amendment to the constitution in relation to 10 filling a vacancy in the office of the 11 Comptroller and Attorney General. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without 13 objection, the bill is reported to Third Reading 14 Calendar. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman 16 from the Committee on Investigations, Taxation, 17 and Government Operations reports the following 18 bill directly for third reading: 19 Senate Bill Number 4596, by 20 Senator Marino and others, an act to amend the 21 Public Officers Law and the Election Law, in 22 relation to providing for a referendum of 23 preference by electors for candidates to fill 2723 1 vacancies. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without 3 objection, the bill is reported to Third Reading 4 Calendar. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin 6 from the Committee on Local Government reports 7 the following bill directly for third reading: 8 Senate Bill Number 4541, by 9 Senator Spano, an act to authorize the village 10 of Tuckahoe, Westchester County, to finance a 11 deficit, its general fund, by the issuance of 12 serial bonds. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without 14 objection, the bill is reported to the Third 15 Reading Calendar. 16 Motions and resolutions. 17 Secretary will read. 18 THE SECRETARY: On page 6 of 19 today's calendar, Senator Velella moves to 20 discharge the Committee on Insurance from 21 Assembly Bill Number 6187 and substitute it for 22 the identical Calendar Number 493. 23 On page 7, Senator Hannon moves 2724 1 to discharge the Committee on Insurance from 2 Assembly Bill Number 6927 and substitute it for 3 the identical Calendar Number 497. 4 On page 22, Senator Volker moves 5 to discharge the Committee on Codes from 6 Assembly Bill Number 6457 and substitute it for 7 the identical Third Reading 458. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: 9 Substitutions ordered. 10 Senator Present, that concludes 11 the house cleaning business. We are now ready 12 for the calendar. 13 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 14 Let's take up the non-controversial calendar, 15 please. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: 17 Non-controversial calendar. The Secretary will 18 read. 19 THE SECRETARY: On page 10, 20 Calendar Number 52, by Senator Maltese, Senate 21 Bill Number 92, an act to amend the Public 22 Authorities Law, in relation to the appointment 23 of members of the New York City Water Board. 2725 1 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay it 3 aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 53, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number 134, 6 Public Authorities Law and the State Finance 7 Law, in relation to revenues. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay it 10 aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 421, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 3197, 13 an act to amend the Family Court Act. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 15 last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 23 is passed. 2726 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 422, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 3759, 3 Domestic Relations Law, in relation to orders 4 for child custody and support. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 6 last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 14 is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 423, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 4331, 17 Family Court Act, in relation to authorizing 18 fees for probation services in Family Court. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the 21 bill aside. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 425, by Senator Babbush, Senate Bill Number 904, 2727 1 authorizing the city of New York to reconvey its 2 interest in certain real property. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: There is 4 a home rule message at the desk. 5 Read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 13 is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 426, by Senator Velella, Senate Bill Number 16 1280, authorizing the city of New York to 17 reconvey its interest in certain real property. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: There is 19 a home rule message at the desk. 20 Read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 2728 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 427, by Senator Nolan, Senate Bill Number 3438, 8 an act to amend the city charter of the city of 9 Cohoes. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 11 last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 19 is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 428, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 3727, 22 General Municipal Law. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside. 2729 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the 2 bill aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 429, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number 116, 5 Education Law, in relation to authorizing 6 instruction regarding child development. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 8 last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 15 Jones to explain her vote. 16 SENATOR JONES: No, Mr. 17 President. I would like to ask a question. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the 19 bill aside. Withdraw the roll call and lay the 20 bill aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar number 22 430, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 23 2243A, Education Law, in relation to use of 2730 1 school buildings for child care services. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 3 last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 11 is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 433, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 14 3451, Education Law, in relation to 15 reorganization incentive building aid. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 17 last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 2731 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 2 is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 435, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 1098, 5 Environmental Conservation Law, in relation to 6 the definition of an inactive hazardous waste 7 disposal site. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 9 last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 437. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the 22 bill aside. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2732 1 438, by member of the Assembly Brodsky, Assembly 2 Bill Number 4009, Environmental Conservation 3 Law. 4 SENATOR JOHNSON: Lay it aside 5 for amendment, please. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the 7 bill aside for amendments. 8 SENATOR JOHNSON: Don't take it 9 up any more today. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the 11 bill aside for the day. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 439, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 14 4307, Environmental Conservation Law, in 15 relation to wild life management. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 17 last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 2733 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 2 is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 440, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 5 4376, Environmental Conservation Law, in 6 relation to authorizing the Department of 7 Environmental Conservation to dispose of surplus 8 products. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 10 last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 18 is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 441, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 464, 21 Social Services Law and the Tax Law, in relation 22 to evaluating employment and training programs. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 2734 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 2 Gold. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Will the sponsor 4 be kind enough to let us have a day on this, 5 please? 6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. Lay it 8 aside for the day. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the 10 bill aside for the day. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 444, by Senator Seward, Senate Bill Number 3372, 13 an act to amend the Energy Law, the 14 Environmental Conservation Law, and the 15 Transportation Law. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 17 last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 2735 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 2 is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 448, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 5 2372. 6 SENATOR HALPERIN: Lay it aside. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the 9 bill aside. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 449, by Senator Sears, Senate Bill Number 2459, 12 an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 13 unauthorized use of an emergency vehicle. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 15 last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 23 is passed. 2736 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 450, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 3 2732A, Civil Practice Law and Rules, in relation 4 to the elimination of fees in connection with 5 service of information subpoenas. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 7 last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 15 is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 451, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2990. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the 20 bill aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 452. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 2737 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay that 2 bill aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 453, by Senator Sears, Senate Bill Number 3106, 5 an act to amend the Penal Law. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 7 last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 15 is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 454, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 3165, 18 an act to amend the Penal Law. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 20 last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 2738 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 455, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 3237. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the 10 bill aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 457, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 3323, 13 an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 14 including criminal sale of a controlled 15 substance. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: We're on 17 Calendar 457. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay it 20 aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 459, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 23 3371, Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to 2739 1 including day constables of the village of South 2 Nyack. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 4 last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54, nays 2. 11 Senators Gold and Leichter recorded in the 12 negative. Also Senator Galiber recorded in the 13 negative. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 15 is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 460, by Senator Volker. 18 SENATOR ONORATO: Lay it aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay it 20 aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 461, by Senator Maltese, Senate Bill Number 23 3793, Civil Rights Law. 2740 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 2 last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 10 is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 485, by Senator Larkin. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the 15 bill aside. 16 Senator Present, that concludes 17 the non-controversial calendar. 18 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 19 let's take up the controversial calendar, 20 please. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: 22 Controversial calendar. Secretary will read. 23 THE SECRETARY: On page 10, 2741 1 Calendar Number 52, by Senator Maltese, Senate 2 Bill Number 92, Public Authorities Law, in 3 relation to the appointment of members of the 4 New York City Water Board. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 7 Maltese, explanation requested. 8 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President, 9 the purpose of this legislation is to change the 10 manner in which members of the New York City 11 Water Board are appointed. 12 The summary of the provisions: 13 The Public Authorities Law would be amended by 14 allowing five members of the Water Board to be 15 appointed by the City Council, one member to be 16 appointed by the Mayor, and one member to be 17 appointed by the president of the City Council. 18 Mr. President, the main purpose 19 of the bill would be to expand the authority of 20 the board from simply being appointees of the 21 Mayor to being appointees of the City Council, 22 and to have the Water Board as a more responsive 23 agency to the people and to remove it somewhat 2742 1 from the control of the Mayor. The Mayor would 2 still have one appointee on the Water Board. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 4 Gold. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Will Senator 6 yield to a question? 7 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator, 9 do you yield? Senator yields. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, the bill 11 is really pretty straightforward; but, as you 12 know, there is obviously a memo in opposition by 13 the Mayor, and I'm sure the bill is supported 14 roundly by the City Council, but in terms of 15 governance in the City, Senator, I mean why? Why 16 are we doing this? 17 The Mayor is certainly a 18 representative of the people of the city of New 19 York, and we talk about changing the board so 20 that it reflects the will of the people. I 21 don't want to put words in your mouth. Whatever 22 you said, something like that I thought. I mean 23 right now, this is a function that's being 2743 1 carried out. We have a Mayor in the City, and 2 he appoints a board. 3 Is the board acting improperly? 4 Has there been a problem? Why are we doing this 5 other than to sort of spread the wealth 6 politically to give people appointments? 7 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President, 8 in response to Senator Gold's query, there have 9 been many complaints of constituents in various 10 parts of the city of New York with relation to 11 water and sewer rates. 12 The theory behind the legislation 13 is that by making the members of the City 14 Council participate in the appointments of the 15 board, it would give the people easier access to 16 have their complaints handled. I have myself as 17 of other Senators representing constituents in 18 the City spoken to the Mayor with reference to 19 these complaints. He has been responsive to 20 some of the inquiries that I have made on behalf 21 of the constituents. At the same time I do feel 22 that with the onerous responsibility of the 23 entire city of New York to have to appeal 2744 1 directly to the Mayor on matters of this kind 2 would be circuitous, and it would facilitate the 3 decreasing of water and sewer rates in order to 4 put the City Council in a position of 5 responsibility as far as the appointment of the 6 members. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 9 Gold. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I 11 don't think this is the overwhelming issue of 12 the year, but -- and certainly, I don't think 13 that the president -- sorry, the Majority Leader 14 of the City Council, the Speaker of the City 15 Council has a greater fan in New York than me. 16 I think he is terrific, and I think that Peter 17 Vallone has taken the City Council through this 18 metamorphosis of the new charter and made it a 19 very, very viable body. I don't think that's an 20 issue at all. 21 I do think, however, that Senator 22 Maltese's arguments really do stretch it a 23 little bit. I'm delighted that Senator Maltese 2745 1 in his usual frank way, said that when there was 2 a problem and he contacted the Mayor, they were 3 responsive. But the board ought to be 4 responsive whether it is appointed by the Mayor 5 or whether they are recommendations from the 6 City Council. 7 I would imagine that many of us 8 should be embarrassed when we see over and over 9 again articles written about, "It's not what you 10 know; it's who you know," and whatever; and if 11 there is something not right, it shouldn't be a 12 question of always having to know somebody to 13 get it taken care ever. 14 We are talking now about water/ 15 sewer rates. One of the concerns that the Mayor 16 raises in his memo is whether or not this is a 17 flag to the bondholders in the investment 18 community because you are dealing with issues of 19 rating. 20 Senator Maltese, I would not stay 21 awake at night if this bill passes. I won't 22 have sleepless nights one way or the other, but 23 I do think that the City Council under the 2746 1 leadership of Speaker Vallone has done very 2 important things for the City and is growing. I 3 just don't see the necessity of making this 4 particular change. I don't see where it helps 5 the City, and I just want to point out to the 6 members that there is in fact a memo in 7 opposition from the Mayor's office. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 9 Padavan. 10 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President, 11 in regard to the bill before us. 12 If there is one single issue that 13 I receive a great deal of constituent input on 14 and complaints, it is relevant to the actions of 15 the Water Board in the city of New York, with 16 regard to their cavalier and almost arbitrary 17 procedure in establishing rates, mistakes that 18 are made ad nauseum. 19 Just two weeks ago, I received a 20 visit from a constituent that had in her hand a 21 bill from the Water Board for their one-family 22 home in the amount of over $10,000. It will 23 take weeks if not months to straighten that mess 2747 1 out. 2 Now, when we tell people and we 3 urge people to contact their City Council 4 because it fundamentally is a City issue, the 5 response we get back is, "The City Councilman 6 says he can't do anything about it because these 7 people are all appointed by the Mayor over which 8 they have no control." 9 Now, I don't mean to imply that 10 when we contact the Water Board they don't 11 eventually respond and do their best, hopefully, 12 not in every instance but in many instances to 13 correct the problem. But if the City Council 14 under charter revision which we authorized and 15 which the people sustained by referendum is to 16 have the authority to deal with those City 17 services, particularly with regards to fiscal 18 matters -- indebtedness, as an example. This 19 authority floats an awful lot of bonds. It's a 20 quasi-governmental agency in the sense that it 21 is an independent agency, with no control by the 22 City Council and no input. 23 We did pass a bill yesterday in 2748 1 this chamber which will allow the City Council 2 to have oversight over many of these independent 3 agencies like OTB and the Water Board and so on, 4 but that is yet to become law. The fact 5 remains, we feel the sponsors of this 6 legislation and many representatives within city 7 government, that if the makeup of this board is 8 reflective to some degree of the wishes of the 9 people in the various counties, boroughs, of the 10 City by virtue of input from the City Council, 11 then the degree of arrogance -- and on occasion 12 it is just that -- that taxpayers, homeowners, 13 business owners, feel with regard to the Water 14 Board will be somewhat diminished. Hopefully, 15 substantially diminished. 16 We have an apartment house in the 17 city of New York who are now getting water bills 18 that are greater than their property tax bills. 19 You have heard from some of them, those of you 20 in the city of New York, and they are telling us 21 they are going to have to abandon their 22 property. We say, "Well, go to the Water Board; 23 something has got to be done about this." 2749 1 "Well, we have and we get a 2 blank stare, a blank wall, no response." 3 Now, I don't suggest to you that 4 this bill alone in terms of an appointment 5 process will be the solution to all those 6 difficulties, ameliorate all those problems, but 7 I certainly think it's a step in the right 8 direction. 9 And the precedent is set. There 10 are many state boards and authorities where 11 members are there either by recommendation or 12 selection or nomination from the Legislature, 13 this Legislature, and they are confirmed by the 14 Senate. So this is not an obtuse or unusual 15 procedure or mechanism that we are suggesting 16 should be in place. There is more than enough 17 precedent for it. 18 We are hopeful that if that board 19 becomes more sympathetic, representative, and 20 responsive to the people of the city of New York 21 that that can be accomplished through this 22 mechanism. So I strongly support this bill and 23 urge all of you, particularly those outside the 2750 1 city of New York who may not be aware of the 2 kinds of problems we are experiencing to support 3 it. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 5 last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 12 the negative on Calendar Number 52 are Senators 13 Galiber, Gold, Stachowski, and Waldon. Ayes 54, 14 nays 4. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 16 is passed. 17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 19 Padavan. 20 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President. 21 With regard -- on page 18, Calendar Number 429, 22 may I have the vote by which that bill passed 23 reconsidered, please. 2751 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: 429 was 2 laid aside, Senator Padavan. 3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you very 4 much. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Secretary 6 will continue the calendar. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 53, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number 134, 9 an act to amend the Public Authorities Law and 10 the State Finance Law. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: There is 12 a local fiscal impact statement at the desk. 13 Read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 21 is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 423, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 4331, 2752 1 an act to amend the Family Court Act. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: May I ask a 3 question of the sponsor? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 5 Saland, do you yield to Senator Skelos? 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator Saland, 7 it's my understanding that this bill would allow 8 local probation departments to charge fees for 9 the study in private placement adoption cases. 10 Is that correct? 11 SENATOR SALAND: Correct, on a 12 scale of $50 to a maximum of $500 based upon the 13 means of the petitioner. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Presently, can 15 the probation department -- and I really don't 16 know the answer to this -- charge fees in other 17 types of investigative matters that they 18 conduct? 19 SENATOR SALAND: Not in all, but 20 I do believe that they can in some. But I could 21 verify that for you if you'd like to put this 22 over until the end of calendar, and I can tell 23 you what those proceedings are. I do believe 2753 1 they can in some. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: That's up to 3 you. Do you want to lay it aside now? 4 SENATOR SALAND: If that's your 5 interest, I would certainly like to answer that 6 for you unequivocally. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Okay. And just 8 one other question. Under this legislation, I 9 understand that the money would go to the local 10 probation district, and it would not affect 11 their state aid in the future. 12 SENATOR SALAND: Correct. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Would this money 14 within the local probation department then have 15 to be targeted towards whatever adoption type 16 services and investigations they conduct or 17 would it just go into their general fund? 18 SENATOR SALAND: I believe as 19 it's drafted, it goes into their general fund 20 for their general use. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: So we are going 22 to now charge for their services in private 23 placement adoptions. 2754 1 SENATOR SALAND: On a sliding 2 scale, this would enable that to happen. But 3 let me lay this aside until the end of the 4 calendar so I can answer your other question. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 6 is temporarily laid aside at the request of the 7 sponsor. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 428, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 3727. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the 12 bill aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 429, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number 116. 15 SENATOR PADAVAN: Lay that aside, 16 please. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 18 is laid aside at the request of the sponsor. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 437, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2632, 21 Environmental Conservation Law and the State 22 Finance Law. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 2755 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: 2 Explanation requested. 3 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, can 4 we come back to that? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 6 is temporarily laid aside. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 448, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 9 2372, an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation 10 to possessing an obscene sexual performance by a 11 child. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on one 13 second. 448? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: 448, 15 Senator Johnson's bill, page 21. 16 SENATOR HALPERIN: Explanation. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: 18 Explanation requested. Senator Johnson. 19 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President. 20 This bill makes it illegal to knowingly possess 21 any material containing sexual performance of a 22 child under 16 years of age. Makes it a class E 23 felony. 2756 1 This bill has been with us before 2 for several years. It was passed each time. 3 Perfectly legal and constitutional and should be 4 adopted by this house. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 6 Halperin. 7 SENATOR HALPERIN: Mr. 8 President. Yes, I believe there is an amendment 9 at the desk. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Yes. 11 SENATOR HALPERIN: I waive its 12 reading, seek to explain it. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 14 Halperin to explain his amendment to Senator 15 Johnson's bill. 16 SENATOR HALPERIN: As Senator 17 Johnson just indicated this legislation has been 18 debated now for two or three years. And when 19 the issue was first raised, the point that I 20 tried to make is that when an individual 21 purchases a magazine, that individual may know 22 that there are other individuals depicted in the 23 nude in that magazine and that perhaps they are 2757 1 depicted in a pornographic manner, but in many 2 cases, there is really no way to determine the 3 age of the individuals who are being depicted. 4 Now, clearly, if the individuals being depicted 5 are of a very, very young age and are obviously 6 undeveloped children, then a purchaser of a 7 magazine would have every reason in the world to 8 understand what it was that they are 9 purchasing. But there is a certain area, a 10 certain age at which one does not know whether 11 an individual is a child or an adult, and this 12 bill is properly targeted at that age in the 13 sense in an anyone under the age of 16 would 14 serve as the basis for a conviction under this 15 bill, but one does not always know from looking 16 at at a photograph whether the individual being 17 depicted is under the age of 16 or over the age 18 of 16. 19 Now, we are not dealing here with 20 pornographers. We are not dealing here with 21 people who are purveying sexual magazines. 22 We're dealing with individuals who are 23 purchasing a magazine in many cases solely for 2758 1 their own use. And to end up throwing some of 2 these people in prison because they happened to 3 purchase a magazine that had someone under the 4 age of 16 in it when they didn't even know that, 5 to me, should not be the purpose of our criminal 6 justice system. 7 The intent behind this bill, as 8 explained in years gone by, is to discourage 9 individuals from buying child pornography. Now, 10 how do we discourage somebody from doing 11 something when they don't know what it is they 12 are doing? 13 So my bill -- or my amendment, 14 rather, which is in fact a bill but which I'm 15 offering up as an amendment, states that it is 16 up to the prosecution to prove as an element of 17 the crime that the individual who purchased the 18 magazine or whatever other material we're 19 discussing knew or should have known that the 20 individual depicted was under age. 21 The way the law is written now, 22 these individuals who are purchasing a magazine 23 have the burden thrown upon them to somehow 2759 1 prove that they did not know the age of the 2 person. Now, to subject otherwise honest 3 people, law-abiding people, to arrest and 4 indictment even if not eventual conviction is, 5 to my mind, both an injustice and a waste of our 6 criminal justice resources unless the stated 7 purpose of the legislation as offered is being 8 realized; and that is, to discourage people from 9 doing something that they know they are doing. 10 So the first thing that my bill 11 does is to make as an element of the crime the 12 knowledge of the age of the individual. 13 The second thing the bill does is 14 to create a situation where, under the first 15 offense, there will be a penalty of an "A" 16 misdemeanor, and should there be a second 17 offense within five years, then the "E" felony 18 would be applicable. I think that that's more 19 reasonable, once again, dealing with people who 20 are not producing this material, because they 21 are covered by another section of law which has 22 even harsher penalties and properly so -- I 23 voted for that bill when it came up -- or 2760 1 individuals who are selling it on an ongoing 2 basis who are also then subject to another more 3 harsh provision of law. 4 I agree that those harsh 5 provisions of law should be imposed upon those 6 who would seek to benefit from taking advantage 7 of youngsters, but that is not necessarily what 8 this bill is getting at. The way that I am 9 suggesting that the bill be amended would get at 10 that, I think would make it more acceptable to 11 the other house of this Legislature without 12 which this could not become law and has not 13 become law, and perhaps even an eventual 14 signature by the Governor. 15 So I would urge everyone in this 16 house to vote for the amendment, and I would 17 hope that it would pass and that we can send the 18 bill across to the Assembly that makes much more 19 sense than the one that is being presented to 20 us. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: On 22 Senator Halperin's amendment. All those in 23 favor, signify by saying aye. 2761 1 (Response of "Aye.") 2 All those opposed, nay. 3 (Response of nay. ) 4 The nays have it. The amendment 5 is defeated. 6 On the main bill, read the last 7 section. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 10 Gold. 11 SENATOR GOLD: I don't really 12 want to repeat the debate. We had it last year 13 and Senator Halperin offered his amendment last 14 year, and Senator Connor and Galiber and myself, 15 Halperin, and Leichter, Montgomery, Ohrenstein, 16 Smith, Stavisky, and Waldon, understood the 17 problems in the bill and voted in the negative. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 19 last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect on the first day of 22 November next succeeding the date on which it 23 shall have become law. 2762 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 2 roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 4 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 5 the negative on Calendar Number 448 are Senators 6 Connor, Galiber, Gold, Halperin, Leichter, 7 Montgomery, Ohrenstein, Paterson, Santiago, 8 Smith, Stavisky, and Waldon. Ayes 47, nays 12. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 10 is passed. 11 Senator Present. 12 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 13 can we take up Calendar 423 that was laid aside 14 earlier. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Secretary 16 will recount 423. 17 Senator Leichter. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 19 President. Just before the next bill is read, 20 may I have unanimous consent to be recorded in 21 the negative on Calendar 52, which passed 22 earlier today? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without 2763 1 objection. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 4 Mendez. 5 SENATOR MENDEZ: May I please be 6 recorded in the negative on Calendar 52. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without 8 objection. 9 Senator Paterson. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 11 President. The same, without objection, in the 12 negative on Calendar 52. There is such a 13 crescendo building up in this chamber. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without 15 objection on the crescendo. 16 Secretary will read. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 423, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 4331, 19 Family Court Act, in relation to authorizing 20 fees for probation services in Family Court. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 23 Gold? 2764 1 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 2 yield to one question? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 4 Saland, will you yield? 5 SENATOR SALAND: Yes. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: He 7 yields. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, the way I 9 understand it, this isn't anything 10 philosophical. This is just a straight issue of 11 trying to raise money for the courts or the 12 state or whatever; right? 13 SENATOR SALAND: What this is 14 doing is basically saying that instead of having 15 to -- this would enable a prospective adoptive 16 parent to have the option of doing what they do 17 currently, which is paying for an outside home 18 study perhaps through a CSW or permitting the 19 county probation department to do that, and the 20 fee would be fixed, depending upon the means of 21 the person, anywhere from $50 to $500. 22 The question that Senator Skelos 23 had asked a bit earlier in which I told him I 2765 1 thought that there were some other areas in 2 which probation had the authority to charge a 3 fee, but didn't want to tell him that 4 unequivocally until I could verify that area, 5 that area is in child custody investigations. 6 Probation has the ability to charge a fee. 7 SENATOR GOLD: So will Senator 8 yield to a question, one more question? 9 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, sir. 10 SENATOR GOLD: So it's not just a 11 strict money-making situation. As I understand 12 it now, something must be done; and if it's done 13 in one situation, the adopting parents would pay 14 for it through that situation. This is allowing 15 them to have it done through a different 16 situation and having a fee set for it. Is that 17 correct? 18 SENATOR SALAND: Correct. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 21 Skelos. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 23 I'm going to vote against this bill, only 2766 1 because I think it is wrong to be charging a 2 family that is doing something quite wonderful 3 which is the private adoption of a young child. 4 We are going to charge them a fee for this 5 service. Yet in instances where non-indigent 6 people who have perhaps violated the law and are 7 going through probation type services are not 8 charged fees. So I think it just sends in my 9 opinion a wrong message; that we should not be 10 charging a fee in the instance of a wonderful 11 social thing of private placement adoption. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Last 13 section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect on the first day of 16 October. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 18 Montgomery. 19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you. 20 Mr. President. I'm happy to join 21 Senator Skelos in opposing this bill because I 22 think, though Senator Saland may have every good 23 intention, this really is, I think, one of those 2767 1 bills this sends a very, very strong negative 2 signal to people in this state, particularly 3 like people in my district who agree to adopt 4 children, especially hard to place children. 5 I have three relatively new 6 adoption agencies that are minority agencies, 7 that the state has taken great pains to set 8 aside funding specifically in order to help 9 those organizations establish themselves and be 10 able to function, because they target a very 11 important sector of my district and that's 12 blacks and/or Hispanic parents, in particular, 13 to adopt children. And I think that this bill 14 will, in fact, penalize them for wanting to do a 15 very good social -- good and positive and 16 socially responsible action. 17 So I think this is a very bad 18 bill, and I hope that my colleagues will vote 19 against it because it is well-intentioned, but I 20 think it is ill in its outcome and in its 21 message to the people in this state. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 23 Jones. 2768 1 SENATOR JONES: Will Senator 2 Saland yield to a question, please? 3 SENATOR SALAND: Yes. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 5 Saland yields. 6 SENATOR JONES: I was confused 7 after I listened to Senator Skelos' remarks. 8 I'm of the opinion that part of the budget that 9 we passed included a large cut for the probation 10 department; and, in turn, they were given the 11 option to charge fees. Is that not correct? Did 12 I miss something? 13 SENATOR SALAND: What occurred in 14 the budget has absolutely no relationship 15 whatsoever to anything that is intended to be 16 done in this bill. 17 SENATOR JONES: Senator Skelos 18 just said that criminals, et cetera, we were not 19 able to charge fees. I was of the opinion we 20 could. 21 SENATOR SALAND: I think Senator 22 Skelos -- and I certainly can't speak for 23 Senator Skelos -- may be referring to bills that 2769 1 have been considered in this house at one time 2 or other in which Senator Skelos and others have 3 sought to enable probationers in criminal cases 4 to be charged fees, and that has not been 5 accepted either in the other house or by the 6 Governor. I am assuming that's what his 7 reference was to. 8 SENATOR JONES: Okay. Would the 9 Senator yield to another question? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 11 yields. 12 SENATOR JONES: To clarify for 13 me. This is a separate issue as far as 14 adoption, and we did not pass anything - 15 SENATOR SALAND: There's 16 absolutely nothing in the budget that dealt with 17 this topic. 18 SENATOR JONES: Not only this 19 topic but fees at all, is that what you're 20 saying? 21 SENATOR SALAND: No. No. If you 22 can recall, when the budget was adopted, the 23 Governor had attempted to zero out last year's 2770 1 $45 million appropriation. We in this house 2 were successful in restoring approximately $28 3 million of those monies, and the local probation 4 departments certainly would like to be held, in 5 effect, harmless if they could by having the 6 balance of those monies restored. That's a 7 separate issue. 8 SENATOR JONES: Okay. Thank you, 9 Senator. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Are there 11 any further questions? 12 SENATOR SALAND: I would just - 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 14 Saland, on the bill. 15 SENATOR SALAND: I just would 16 like to address Senator Montgomery's comments, 17 and I would call her attention to lines 13 18 through 15, and anybody who might have shared 19 her concerns, in which the bill provides that 20 that fee can be waived on the discretion of the 21 court when the adoption would be delayed because 22 the petitioning party lacks sufficient means to 23 pay the fee. And I would assume that would 2771 1 certainly be a consideration in the types of 2 cases that Senator Montgomery was referring to. 3 Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 5 last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect the first day of October. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 12 the negative on Calendar 423 are Senators 13 Galiber, Kuhl, Montgomery, Onorato, Pataki, 14 Paterson, Santiago, Skelos, Solomon, Stavisky 15 and Waldon. Ayes 48, nays 11. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 17 is passed. 18 Senator Present. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 20 will you call up Calendar 437, Senator Cook's 21 bill, laid aside earlier. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Calendar 23 437. Secretary will read. 2772 1 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 3 Gold. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. If I can 5 impose, before you do that, could you recognize 6 Senator Santiago for a moment. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 8 Santiago. 9 SENATOR SANTIAGO: I would like 10 to vote no on 52, please. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Unanimous consent 12 requested for her to be recorded in the negative 13 on Calendar Number 52. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without 15 objection. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you very 17 much. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Secretary 19 will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 437, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2632, 22 Environmental Conservation Law and the State 23 Finance Law. 2773 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 2 Cook. Senator Gold has requested an 3 explanation. 4 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 5 One of the reasons why - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 7 Gold. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 10 Gold. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. If Senator 12 Cook would yield, I prefer not to have an 13 explanation. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 15 Cook, will you yield? 16 SENATOR COOK: Sure. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 18 Cook yields. 19 SENATOR GOLD: I want everyone to 20 know that I have a document in front of me which 21 mentions the name of this bill, 2632, and it 22 says that the Department of Environmental 23 Conservation strongly opposes the bill. Do you 2774 1 know the reasons why, Senator? I don't. 2 Last section. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 4 last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 6 act shall take effect on the first day of 7 January. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 13 is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 451, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2990, 16 an act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 19 Cook. Explanation requested. 20 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 21 This bill that many of us of discussed on 22 previous occasions is a bill that deals with a 23 very serious problem that we continue to have in 2775 1 this state, and that is the problem of persons 2 who are convicted of serious crimes where they 3 are crimes to the person, assault, murder, rape, 4 where they are subsequently charged with the 5 same crime. They may serve a period of time and 6 be subsequently charged with the same crime, and 7 they are released back on the street, and they 8 go out and they commit other crimes while they 9 are waiting for trial. 10 And we had one instance some 11 years ago where I had a hearing in Buffalo on 12 the subject, where the police department 13 actually indicated that between the time of an 14 original arrest of an individual and the time 15 when the trial was finally held that 32 16 subsequent arrests were made on the same person 17 charged for other crimes of violence. 18 This bill simply says that the 19 judge at the point when in individual is 20 arraigned shall consider the safety of the 21 public, consider the record of this individual 22 either on previous convictions or, if they 23 indeed are awaiting trial on one or more similar 2776 1 charges, that the judge does not grant bail. 2 And there are remedies available in the law for 3 the individual who is charged to try to get that 4 overturned. 5 But the real purpose of the law 6 is to say when we've got dangerous people and we 7 know that they are dangerous people that the 8 public deserves the right to be protected from 9 this type of individual being on the street. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 11 Dollinger. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 13 President, will the sponsor yield to a 14 question? 15 SENATOR COOK: Sure. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 17 Cook yields, Senator Dollinger. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: One of the 19 questions that I raised on the deliberation of 20 this item is what impact this bill would have on 21 the populations in the county jails, such as of 22 the Monroe County Correctional Facility, when 23 pre-trial release is prevented in instances when 2777 1 a judge might think it was warranted. 2 My question is about how many 3 prisoners statewide do you think this would 4 affect; and what do you think the additional 5 stay in a correctional facility would be as a 6 consequence of this bill? 7 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, of 8 course, we get this question asked all the time, 9 and I'm really kind of wondering why we just 10 don't establish a state prison that's not X 11 number of vacancies; and then when it gets full, 12 we don't convict anybody else of any more 13 crimes. I mean that's the logic you are using, 14 Senator. 15 The point is that's not the 16 direction we come from. We look at what the 17 need is, and we provide whatever space we have 18 to provide. Our responsibility here is to 19 protect the public, and if there has to be a 20 cost to that, so be it. That's the cost. 21 The point is these are dangerous 22 people. They are committing multiple crimes. 23 One instance which I am, unfortunately, all too 2778 1 well acquainted with, a person was actually 2 murdered by someone while that individual was 3 out on bail awaiting trial on a rape charge, and 4 that was an individual who had a previous 5 conviction of violent crime. 6 These are the kinds of people 7 that have to be kept off the street, and what 8 the cost is, I don't know. How many of them 9 there are, I don't know, any more than I know 10 how many people are going to be convicted of 11 crime in a given year. All I know is we make 12 whatever space we have to make available to make 13 it available. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 15 President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 17 Dollinger. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the bill. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 20 Dollinger, on the bill. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: In the Codes 22 Committee discussion about this, I supported 23 this item. 2779 1 My concern with my question to 2 Senator Cook was quite simple. Before we 3 mandate that judges don't have the discretion to 4 exercise their authority in a given instance to 5 put someone out on pre-trial release because, in 6 their judgment, they feel that given all the 7 circumstances that we currently have in the law 8 they meet the standards for pre-trial release. 9 What we're doing is taking away their discretion 10 to do that to some extent. We are limiting 11 their discretion to do that. 12 But to another extent, what we 13 are doing is we're mandating to places like 14 Monroe County that they keep more prisoners in 15 the jails. And the consequence of that, as I 16 understand it -- and I understand the purpose of 17 this legislation. I understand it's a public 18 safety purpose. But from my point of view what 19 we're doing is we're mandating that the 20 counties, once again, keep more and more people 21 in their jails. 22 That's going to have a direct 23 cost to the people that live in my county 2780 1 because it's going to require that they increase 2 their cost of public safety service. My concern 3 is that before we do mandate this, before we 4 again get accused, as Lord knows, I've only been 5 here four months, have already been accused of 6 mandating to local communities what they can and 7 cannot do, that what we are doing here is we are 8 mandating that these prisoners -- no matter what 9 other circumstances may be available, we are 10 mandating that they stay in the facilities and 11 that the taxpayers pick up the cost even though, 12 in certain instances, the judge presiding over 13 the case might determine that they qualify for 14 pre-trial release. 15 I'm simply trying to highlight to 16 the Senator that I understand the purpose. I 17 understand the need to protect the public 18 safety. We do have safeguards under the system 19 currently. But one of the effects, and all of 20 my colleagues should recognize this, that what 21 we're doing is we're telling the local 22 communities again, "We're not going to let your 23 judges let these people out," and that's going 2781 1 to have a direct financial consequence to the 2 community facilities. 3 I don't know how many people this 4 is going to affect. That's why I had hoped that 5 perhaps Senator Volker, when it was raised in 6 the Codes Committee, might have some additional 7 information as to how many people this involves. 8 But we should recognize that this is a mandate. 9 This is telling someone that they can't do 10 something that they might be otherwise inclined 11 to do, and that this is going to have a cost, a 12 real taxpayer cost associated with it. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 14 DeFrancisco. 15 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: On the 16 cost, I believe there's a finite number of cells 17 in each community, and all this bill says is 18 that these prisoners, the most dangerous, have 19 to be detained. And if it means that some other 20 prisoners who are less violent and less a threat 21 to society have to be let out under less 22 stringent grounds, then so be it. That's the 23 financial point. 2782 1 The other thing I wanted to 2 mention about the bill is that it is a good 3 bill, and it's not a unique bill for those who 4 are maybe on the fence on it, in that the 5 federal government already has this type of 6 system in place in the federal criminal justice 7 system, and it works there. There is procedural 8 safeguards. I have participated in it privately 9 in my law practice, and I think it would work in 10 the state as well, not only to promote what 11 Senator Cook mentioned but also to safeguard the 12 rights of the individual. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Last 14 section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 11. This 16 act shall take effect on the 1st day of January. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 21 Galiber to explain his vote. 22 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes, to explain 23 my vote. 2783 1 Mr. President. No one has 2 mentioned about what this bill really does, and 3 we start talking about preventive detention 4 never mind what it costs us, but we're dealing 5 with the constitution here. We haven't outlived 6 the embarrassment of putting 140,000 Japanese 7 Americans in barbed wire around a fence under 8 the guise of preventative detention. 9 This is a bad piece of 10 legislation. It does violence to our 11 constitution. And whether we do it on a federal 12 level or no, doesn't make it right. What we're 13 doing here are mere suspicions. Someone comes 14 in the second go-round. What happened to due 15 cause, the due process clause that we have in 16 our constitution? Somebody comes in again we 17 suspect that they might maybe do something; 18 therefore, we're going to hold them. So never 19 mind the cost of it. 20 The fact is that this piece of 21 this legislation again goes right back to some 22 basic rights that we have under the constitution 23 which took us some time to get it working. And 2784 1 slowly but surely, we have been grinding away at 2 people's basic constitutional rights and this 3 just is another extension of that. 4 This is a bad piece of 5 legislation. I vote no. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 7 Dollinger to explain his vote. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I share 9 Senator Galiber's concern. The reason why I 10 raised the cost issue is simply because it's one 11 that I think before we take any step to involve 12 constitutional issue, we all ought to know what 13 the fiscal issue will be for the local 14 communities, and I guess I'd just point out that 15 Senator DeFrancisco's point about this only 16 affecting a finite number of people is 17 inconsistent with the purpose announced in this 18 legislation, which Senator Cook says was to 19 strike at the core of one of the most serious 20 threats to public safety today, the failure to 21 recognize public safety as a criteria in 22 deciding pre-trial release matters. 23 Well, if it's such a critical 2785 1 issue as Senator Cook points out, Senator 2 DeFrancisco says it's only a finite number; it's 3 not really such a serious problem. I think 4 there's problems with this from a cost point of 5 view. When I supported it in the Codes 6 Committee, it was my hope we'd have a better 7 definition of exactly who this would affect. 8 So I think there's some technical 9 problems, and I'm going to vote no. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Results. 11 Senator DeFrancisco to explain 12 his vote. 13 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. I 14 didn't say that it only affects a finite number 15 of people. What I said was that there are 16 finite number of cells in a community. And what 17 this bill will do will make certain that those 18 that are most dangerous are required to be kept 19 in those cells. And if we run out of them, then 20 the people who are of less danger to society 21 will be the ones that will have to be let out on 22 the streets by the judges. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Results. 2786 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 3 Leichter to explain his vote. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: I think you 5 can argue on the issue of how many people this 6 would affect, whether it creates a safer 7 community or not. I think to a marginal extent 8 it probably does, as it would if you went into 9 some neighborhoods and just arrested everybody. 10 I imagine you would be able to show that crime 11 would go down. 12 But there is something so basic 13 that distinguishes America from most other 14 countries in the world, and that is the 15 presumption of innocence, and you don't go to 16 jail if you are presumed innocent. And granted, 17 there are people that you will give that 18 presumption to. You will let them out and, by 19 the way, people are only let out on bail. The 20 judge is certainly there to set reasonable bail, 21 but some will go out and will commit a crime. 22 But I think that we've been led to where we 23 would tinker, not only tinker but do damage 2787 1 to what makes America great and our constitution 2 is great, which is the presumption that we 3 accord people because the one thing that we 4 don't want to do is to send an innocent person 5 to jail or keep somebody who hasn't been found 6 guilty in jail. And that's what's involved 7 here. 8 And I'm really saddened that 9 we've been brought to the point where we would 10 throw away that basic American right. And 11 that's what this bill does, and you can't 12 justify it by saying, well, it's going to create 13 safer communities. 14 You know, Mussolini justified 15 dictator ship, because he made the trains run on 16 time. There is no justification for departing 17 from basic principles of liberty. 18 Mr. President, I vote no. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Does 20 anyone else wish to explain their vote? 21 Senator Gold. 22 SENATOR GOLD: I will be brief, 23 but what I think we're doing is we're saying 2788 1 something that offends all of us, Senator Cook, 2 and I mean all of us. I'm very proud of the 3 fact that there's the word "Liberal" that's 4 associated with my name. It helps some of my 5 colleagues on the other side write it adversely 6 in the newsletters, but I'm very proud of the 7 word. But I'm still upset, Senator Cook, when I 8 read the papers, and I have read some of it this 9 week, of someone who was convicted, convicted, 10 convicted, convicted and they don't go to jail 11 and they keep walking the streets. 12 I'm offended for a number of 13 reasons. One reason is that I'm a member of the 14 Legislature and people in the community think 15 we're not doing anything. And the fact is we 16 are, and there are judges who don't follow the 17 law when it comes to sentencing. But that's not 18 the issue in this bill. If we're mad at the 19 judges who don't put people in jail when they 20 are convicted of crime, why get into a 21 completely different issue, one of preventive 22 detention, which is a terrible, I think, 23 anti-American concept. And I don't mean that 2789 1 anybody who supports this is anti-American. 2 Believe me, Senator Cook, I'm not saying that. 3 But I think, as Senator Leichter says, this just 4 flies in the face of our philosophies. 5 The one thing we should be doing 6 is making sure that these wonderful judges, who 7 are my friends and your friends and all of our 8 friends, obey the law. It's embarrassing to 9 read these things in the paper. I don't think 10 how somebody's out on the street with a car in 11 New York with 46 suspensions, and then runs over 12 a kid and he dies. I mean the judges ought to 13 enforce the law. 14 But that's not the issue of 15 preventive detention, and I think there's a 16 confusion. I vote in the negative. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Results. 18 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 19 the negative on - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 21 Waldon. 22 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President. 23 I really want to - 2790 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 2 Waldon. I didn't mean to cut you off. 3 SENATOR WALDON: Yes, if I may. 4 There are two dangers I see with 5 this bill. One is that it usurps the authority 6 of the judge who should have the right to 7 exercise the genius that he or she may have when 8 someone comes before the bar of justice. We 9 would, in effect, with this piece of legislation 10 if it were to become law, replace the freedom 11 that a judge has to do what should be done in 12 the courtroom. 13 The other piece of it, though, 14 which really disturbs and distresses me is that 15 it gives credence to a creeping activity in this 16 nation in certain communities, in certain 17 inner city communities, where it is not the 18 person who has committed the crime who is 19 necessarily being arrested but someone who fits 20 the profile of a person who may have committed a 21 crime. 22 We have too many officers in this 23 country, and having been a police officer, I 2791 1 recognize what I'm saying and I'm not accusing 2 all law enforcement personnel, but there is in 3 this nation now and in New York City on occasion 4 an attitude which allows for young black males 5 and young Latino males to be unnecessarily 6 arrested simply because they fit a profile, the 7 jacket they have on, the type of sneakers they 8 may be wearing, the kind of manner in which they 9 cock the cap that they have upon their head. If 10 they should appear at a moment when some crime 11 or a suspicion of a criminal activity has 12 occurred, all too often they are arrested and 13 falsely arrested on occasion, and I think we 14 don't need to compound that mistake with this 15 mistake. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 17 Padavan to explain his vote. 18 SENATOR PADAVAN: I had not 19 planned to speak to you, but these last few 20 explanations have just prompted me to stand and 21 comment. 22 First, in reading the bill, we 23 seem to overlook the fact that the person who 2792 1 would be subject to this provision is someone 2 who has been indicted for a very serious crime, 3 murder, rape, and so on. 4 Secondly, the person in question 5 must have been convicted of a prior serious 6 felony. 7 Thirdly, the request must be made 8 by the district attorney. 9 There are a number of protective 10 components in this proposal, in this bill that 11 Senator Cook has presented to us, which fly in 12 the face of various comments that have been made 13 in the course of explaining this bill or their 14 vote. We are dealing with very dangerous 15 people, not by presumption but by prior 16 conviction. We're talking about district 17 attorneys who I believe by and large are 18 responsible individuals who, based on their 19 knowledge, feel there is a dangerous person here 20 in front of us, and we must keep this person out 21 of our communities. 22 Yes, Senator Leichter, I'm proud 23 of our constitution, but I'm not proud of the 2793 1 fact that in New York City over 2,000 people 2 were murdered last year, and that every day we 3 pick up the paper and we read about another 4 violent crime committed by someone who is out on 5 bail, out on parole, and it's not just a casual, 6 occasional occurrence. It's regular. It's 7 routine. 8 There is a delicate balance 9 between defending the constitution and defending 10 the people against violent crime. I think this 11 bill meets that criteria of balance. It is not 12 severe. It is well constructed, and it's 13 reasonable. I vote aye. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Results. 15 Unless there is anyone else who wishes to 16 explain his or her vote? 17 (There was no response. ) 18 Results. 19 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 20 the negative on Calendar Number 451, are 21 Senators Dollinger, Galiber, Gold, Leichter, 22 Markowitz, Montgomery, Ohrenstein, Paterson, 23 Santiago, Smith and Waldon. 2794 1 Ayes 48, nays 11. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 3 is passed. 4 Secretary will read. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 452, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 7 3059, an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation 8 to chemical agents and chemical agent weapons. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: 10 Explanation requested, Senator Johnson. 11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President. 12 Before this day is out, there will be six people 13 murdered in this state, a dozen women raped, 230 14 people assaulted, another 300 people robbed. 15 Every day more than five hundred people in this 16 state are victims of violent crime. 17 Government is set up, among other 18 purposes, to protect people and their property. 19 And the laws are in place to protect them, 20 courts and policemen and so forth are put in 21 place to protect people against these type of 22 crimes, and yet they happen every day. 23 Unless a person is willing to go 2795 1 through the procedure and is lucky enough to be 2 rewarded, I might say, by having a pistol permit 3 and having a desire to carry it, people are 4 essentially not permitted in this state to carry 5 any means of self-defense, personal 6 self-defense. 7 In 48 other states, they are 8 allowed to do that but not here. In fact, in 48 9 states plus the District of Columbia, you are 10 allowed to defend yourself by carrying mace. In 11 this state, you get arrested if you carry mace. 12 It's a violation of the law. 13 We're trying to change that. 14 We're trying to decriminalize the possession of 15 mace so that a person has a means, a non-lethal 16 means by which to defend themselves. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 19 Gold. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. My 21 notes indicate that there is an opposition from 22 the city of New York, and I do have some 23 literature from Senator Johnson which would 2796 1 indicate that the New York State Federation of 2 Police supports this. Right? 3 SENATOR JOHNSON: Many other 4 organizations, Senator, as well. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Pardon me. 6 SENATOR JOHNSON: There are quite 7 a long list of supporters, including the major 8 police organizations which support this. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Will you yield to 10 one question? 11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 12 SENATOR GOLD: I had in my notes 13 that at one point the Police Conference of the 14 state of New York was in opposition. Have they 15 taken a position this year? 16 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. They have 17 withdrawn their opposition and are now 18 supportive of this legislation. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Last 20 section. 21 Senator Hoffmann. 22 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Mr. President. 23 I rise in support of this bill. I would like to 2797 1 thank Senator Johnson for once again bringing it 2 to our attention, and I also appreciate the hard 3 work that he has done in order to clear up some 4 misconceptions that some members of police 5 organizations had about this bill. 6 He correctly stated the 7 importance of allowing this option to people in 8 this state, particularly to women in this state 9 who would like to be defended -- be able to 10 defend themselves at all times but would prefer 11 not to carry a different type of weapon. 12 Certainly mace is an important, 13 modest deterrent in regard to other types of 14 weapons which are, in fact, legally available 15 right now. There is nothing to prevent a woman 16 who goes out jogging from carrying a butcher 17 knife or a hunting knife with her. And should 18 she want to get a pistol permit and go through 19 the arduous process, she's certainly entitled to 20 do so, and many of us who enjoy jogging in this 21 state or like to be able to feel free to wander 22 comfortably anywhere that we like to wander, 23 choose on occasion to carry some form of 2798 1 protection. 2 This is certainly a legitimate 3 form of self-defense. It is a moderate form of 4 self-defense in relation to fire power, and it 5 certainly is one that women in this state should 6 be allowed to take advantage of when we know 7 that in 48 other states people are allowed to 8 use mace. 9 So I am very happy, once again, 10 to support this bill, and I would urge all of my 11 colleagues on both sides of the aisle to vote in 12 favor of this important measure of equality. 13 Thank you, Mr. President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 15 Padavan. 16 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President. 17 I just want to repeat something I did last time 18 -- said the last time we discussed this bill, 19 and that there are men and women in the state of 20 New York legally carrying mace. They are called 21 mailmen or mailwomen. And in talking to them, 22 obviously, they carry it to defend themselves 23 against angry dogs who may attack them as they 2799 1 are going in someone's yard, but also in many 2 communities they are happy to have it in their 3 possession because of the criminal element that 4 they might have to face. 5 So, obviously, if we are allowing 6 it by federal law in the state of New York for 7 that category of our citizens, that same right 8 and prerogative and opportunity ought to be 9 allowed for everyone else. 10 I vote aye. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Last 12 section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 14 act shall take effect on the first day of 15 November. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 17 roll. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 19 President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 21 Leichter. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'd like to 23 explain my vote. Mr. President. I have 2800 1 always - 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 3 Leichter, we'll call the roll and then we'll 4 have you explain your vote. 5 Call the roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 8 Leichter to explain his vote. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 10 President. I've debated against this bill in 11 the past, but I want to say I have become 12 convinced that under present circumstances that 13 it probably is a right that we ought to give to 14 people of this state. I think, as Senator 15 Padavan said, many are using it anyhow. 16 Unfortunately, we have reached 17 the state where this sort of protection seems to 18 be not only desired, but I think can be 19 justified. Obviously, it's not as dangerous as 20 a gun and so on. 21 So I want to say, Senator 22 Johnson, it took you three, four years but you 23 convinced me. 2801 1 I'm going to vote in the 2 affirmative, Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Results. 4 Senator Volker to explain his 5 vote. 6 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President. 7 Senator Leichter, I -- I have now 8 got a problem. I can't believe -- that since 9 you switched your vote, I better check to make 10 sure I'm voting the right way. 11 It is a momentous occasion, and I 12 congratulate you on your -- on your -- in any 13 case, since Senator Leichter is voting in the 14 affirmative, I will vote in the affirmative 15 also. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 17 Tully to explain his vote. 18 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 19 President, on the bill and to explain my vote. 20 I, too, feel as Senator Volker 21 does. I was wondering if it was the same bill, 22 but when Franz changes his mind, anything can 23 happen in this Legislature. And it's a good 2802 1 thing. It shows that the spirit of debate 2 works. 3 I see last year it passed by a 4 vote of 52 to 8, and hopefully it will pass this 5 year unanimously because I don't think there is 6 a person in this chamber that doesn't know that 7 in circumstances the way they exist today that 8 just about every woman in this state, if she 9 doesn't carry it now, will be carrying it. In 10 any event, it's not legal for them to do it, and 11 I think it's only right that we legalize 12 something that is necessary. 13 I support the bill and vote in 14 the affirmative. 15 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 16 the negative on Calendar 452 are Senators 17 Connor, Mendez, Montgomery, Paterson, Smith and 18 Waldon. Ayes 53, nays 6. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 20 is passed. 21 Secretary. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 455, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 3237, 2803 1 an act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in 2 relation to pre-sentence investigations. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 4 last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 30. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: We're on 11 a roll call on Calendar Number 455. 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays 2. 13 Senators Leichter and Ohrenstein -- ayes 56, 14 nays 3. Senators Leichter, Ohrenstein, and 15 Santiago recorded in the negative. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 17 is passed. 18 Senator Mendez, may I recognize 19 you for a clarification. You wish to be voted 20 in the positive on which vote? 21 SENATOR MENDEZ: Calendar 452, I 22 want to be recorded in the positive. I believe 23 we must have mace to defend ourselves. 2804 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 2 is a yes vote on Calendar 452, Senator Johnson's 3 bill. Thank you. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 457, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 3323, 6 an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 7 including criminal sale of a controlled 8 substance as a felony. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 10 last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 18 is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 460, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 3639, 21 an act to amend the Penal Law. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: 2805 1 Explanation requested. 2 Senator Stavisky, why do you 3 rise? 4 (There was no audible response. ) 5 Thank you, Senator Stavisky. 6 SENATOR VOLKER: This bill is 7 what's known as the "proper cause bill." It was 8 originally sponsored by Senator Schermerhorn for 9 a number of years, and I have carried this bill 10 for several years. 11 What it basically says is -- and 12 I think we have debated this bill -- I don't 13 want to say ad nauseum. At nauseum, okay. What 14 it says is that a -- there's a presumption that 15 a person of clean, moral criminal and mental 16 record, mental character, has proper cause for 17 the issuance of a license. What it basically 18 does is, in a sense, reverse the process and 19 says that unless there is a demonstration that a 20 person has a criminal reported or has a mental 21 problem, or whatever, that they have the right 22 to be approved for a pistol license. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 2806 1 Stavisky. 2 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. 3 President. This is the week when the nation's 4 attention was riveted on the events in Waco, 5 Texas, and I dare say that some of the people 6 who are members of that cult and blindly 7 followed Mr. Koresh to oblivion, had no known 8 record that would have disqualified them from 9 obtaining access to weapons. As a matter of 10 fact, under the laws of the state of Texas, 11 there are very few disqualifications for 12 obtaining firearms. 13 And so what this bill proposes to 14 do is to presume that anyone walking in should 15 have access to a handgun regardless of the need, 16 and I think that we are now going on dangerous 17 terrain. I voted for the mace bill because that 18 is a limited deterrent and defensive weapon that 19 can be used without fatality. But I have no 20 understanding why this Legislature after 21 we witnessed the aberration of Waco, Texas, 22 should want to put handguns in the possession of 23 individuals who may have no need for these 2807 1 weapons and whose reliability, mental as well as 2 criminal, may not have been checked out in 3 advance of the issuance of the permit. 4 This is extremely dangerous, 5 Senator Volker. You are now no longer giving 6 mace to individuals to defend themselves. You 7 are enabling individuals such as those who 8 unfortunately perished in Waco, Texas, to be 9 armed. And what was the reason for the federal 10 government's intervention there? The feeling 11 that the cache of arms in the possession of 12 these individuals could endanger life and 13 safety. And we saw the standoff, over 50 days 14 of impasse. 15 And I'm surely not defending the 16 efforts by the federal government to rush in 17 there without consideration of the consequences, 18 nor am I condemning them. That is not the 19 purpose of this legislative debate. I am simply 20 saying the ready availability of weapons to 21 individuals who might feel that they can take 22 upon themselves that they are the law, that 23 vigilante justice is the law, that should not be 2808 1 the standard of New York State. 2 The memo from the mayor of the 3 city of New York speaks about vigilante 4 justice. It's not coming from someone not in a 5 position of responsibility. And he quotes the 6 vigorous opposition of the police commissioner 7 of the city of New York. Commissioner Kelly is 8 not a kook. Commissioner Kelly is a responsible 9 law enforcement official. The police 10 commissioner of New York City opposes this 11 legislation for a jurisdiction of more than 7 12 million people, and we do not have the right 13 here legislatively, precipitously, 14 presumptuously to say that the police 15 commissioner of the city of New York has no 16 understanding of law enforcement and the 17 protection of the citizens' lives and safety. 18 You have achieved with the 19 enactment -- hopefully, with the enactment of 20 the mace bill a measure of defense and 21 protection, but we do not have to arm people in 22 urban areas -- and I'm not talking about a rural 23 area. If you want to have a bill that applies 2809 1 to the rural sections of New York State and you 2 can prevail upon enough members of both houses 3 to support it, that's a different matter. But 4 do not mandate upon a city of 7 million against 5 the strenuous objections of a mayor and the 6 police commissioner that this arming of 7 civilians without any real cause, not simply 8 with rifles and shotguns for hunting purposes 9 but with handguns, is in the public interest. 10 Pistols are not normally used by 11 the hunters in the field, and pistols are not 12 necessarily the most reliable means of 13 self-defense nor civilians who may not be 14 trained, for civilians who may leave the pistols 15 for other members of the family to use during a 16 family argument, for civilians who may allow the 17 pistols, loaded, to be used by children in an 18 act of play. 19 There is no play when a gun is 20 discharged. There is only in an urban 21 environment in a household when someone is 22 simply careless and will say, "Oh, my God, we 23 didn't expect that to happen." Well, I'm saying 2810 1 it does happen, far too frequently for us to 2 close our eyes to it. 3 I don't think this is a respons 4 ible piece of legislation. I think you should 5 accept the support of this house on the mace 6 bill and allow that to take effect and not push 7 upon us this radical -- and I do mean radical - 8 opening the doors to gun possession by civilians 9 who should not be required to use them. 10 Look, if the police department 11 cannot protect, if the military cannot protect 12 us against violence, then why do we pay taxes? 13 Let us stop paying taxes until police 14 departments and national guards and the military 15 are able to protect our citizens domestically as 16 well as in foreign situations, but don't make of 17 civilians an armed camp squaring off against one 18 another. I hope you would reconsider the 19 sponsorship and the movement to adopt this bill 20 in this house. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 22 Volker. 23 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President. 2811 1 Oh, I realize that some of the so-called 2 anti-gun people are going to try to take 3 advantage of the Waco, Texas, situation, and 4 because the media has not told the whole truth, 5 as is usually the case. Senator, let me tell 6 you something. The ATF didn't go in there, and 7 the FBI didn't go in there because of handguns. 8 If you think that it was because 9 of so-called legal weapons, bazookas, rifles 10 that will shoot three miles, automatic weapons, 11 are illegal in virtually every state in the 12 Union. Clearly, the military weapons in that 13 place wouldn't be legal under any law in this 14 state and, to my knowledge, they are not even 15 legal in Texas. The illegal weapons that were 16 in that place was the reason. They didn't go in 17 because of handguns. That had nothing to do 18 with it. Nor for any guns, by the way, that the 19 average citizen uses did they go in there. 20 The reason fire trucks couldn't 21 get near the scene wasn't, I can tell you, 22 because of any weapon that are legal any place 23 in this state or in this country. 2812 1 And, Senator, you live in a city 2 that has the toughest gun laws, supposedly, 3 other than Washington, D.C., and you live in a 4 city that is riddled with crime. We understand 5 that. It's also a city, by the way, that 6 promised to raise all sorts of new police 7 officers, and didn't. And we understand you've 8 got fiscal crisis and all sorts of other 9 things. 10 But, Senator, don't try to tell 11 me that because we passed a mace bill -- a bill, 12 by the way, that we have a heck of a time 13 convincing members of the Assembly because a 14 couple people, I guess, are afraid that maybe 15 some people will use it against innocent 16 civilians, as if innocent civilians aren't being 17 killed every day by the very weapons that they 18 are refusing to allow the average citizen to 19 use. Every criminal in New York City, as 20 someone said, has a way of obtaining a gun. 21 They don't need to go through a procedure to get 22 a gun. Unfortunately, they can tend to find a 23 gun some way. 2813 1 And I realize that the media of 2 this country, in many ways, has been trying to 3 say we'd like to blame everybody else but the 4 people responsible for the problems in this 5 country, and it's very easy to blame the NRA and 6 innocent gun owners and all that stuff for the 7 problems of this country. But if we are going 8 to tackle, if we are genuinely going to tackle 9 the crime rate in this country, we've got to 10 deal with it on a more rational basis. 11 You know, we had a debate here 12 earlier on Senator Cook's bill, and I would be 13 the first to admit to you that that's a very 14 tough bill. That bill resulted from a period 15 back in the early '80s when a whole bunch of 16 people that were let out on bail on both the 17 federal and state level killed a whole bunch of 18 people. And what happens is, by the way -- and 19 some of those judges, by the way, some of the 20 things that drove us in this state -- most of 21 them that drove us were New York City judges, 22 New York City judges who left people out in the 23 street with no bail who killed people. 2814 1 Now, they don't do that any 2 more. They rarely will ever do that any more, 3 and the reason is because this Legislature and a 4 lot of people around this town, some people in 5 this chamber on both sides of the aisle, passed 6 some legislation and put so much pressure on 7 those people that they, for the most part, don't 8 do that any more. 9 Senator Cook's bill really 10 doesn't involve that many people today because 11 it rarely ever happens that people who commit 12 serious crimes are let out without very high 13 bail or, in some cases, no bail at all. But it 14 happens occasionally, and that's one of the 15 reasons why Senator Cook's bill, frankly, is 16 still around. That's a model, by the way, of a 17 federal statute. In fact, it's in law right now 18 on a federal level. 19 The only reason I point that out 20 to you -- and I understand the emotion of this 21 issue. This bill, by the way, has been around 22 for some time. In a sense, it stands as a 23 symbol of almost the outrageousness of our 2815 1 positions around here; and that is, that to say 2 that if we can only clean up the innocent people 3 having guns, somehow the criminals would not get 4 guns. 5 Now, Commissioner Kelly, by the 6 way, who I have met a number of times, is a very 7 nice fellow. He is a good policeman. He does 8 as he's told. The mayor has told him guns are 9 bad, so he thinks guns are bad. His people, by 10 the way, have been going to almost outrageous 11 actions to keep guns away from people. They 12 have been going after some of their enemies in 13 the Pistol Permit Bureau by refusing to give 14 them applications and all sorts of things. 15 Frankly, you know, as I have told 16 Commissioner Kelly's people, I think that is 17 really undignified for the police department to 18 to that. Because as many law enforcement people 19 have privately acknowledged, the drive in this 20 country for gun control has done little or 21 nothing to stem the tide of criminal conduct. 22 The real truth is what has been stemming the 23 tide is better law enforcement and in some cases 2816 1 better treatment, and we are beginning slowly is 2 to make a difference. 3 But to my knowledge, Senator, 4 there isn't one iota of evidence any place in 5 this country that gun control has done one 6 single small thing to deal with the criminal 7 element. There just isn't any evidence. And, 8 Senator, I understand your emotions on these 9 issues, and I feel it, too. 10 I feel that we should act 11 responsibly. But, Senator, I just don't think 12 that we should think for any one moment and 13 especially the Waco, Texas, situation that nut, 14 whether he had guns or not -- it was guns that 15 drove him, but not the kind of guns that we're 16 talking about here, I can assure you. The kind 17 of weapons, by the way, that killed those FBI 18 agents coming in were high-powered weapons that 19 are not covered by this legislation because they 20 are not allowed by this legislation or any other 21 legislation in this state, to my knowledge. 22 Automatic weapons are illegal, 23 not just by state law but by federal law. You 2817 1 can only get them in certain very restricted 2 situations -- and in many cases you can't get 3 them at all -- for very restricted licensing for 4 certain very restricted persons. In other 5 words, you and I couldn't get them because they 6 are not legal any place in this country. 7 That's why the media always 8 confuses semi-automatic weapons with automatic 9 weapons. The weapons that have been used, the 10 high-powered weapons used are not the kind of 11 weapons that are used, for instance, to rob 12 banks and some of these terrorists use. Those 13 are not allowed. They are illegal already. The 14 only reason I point that out -- and I should 15 point out that I'm not a gun nut, by any means. 16 I don't have all sorts of guns like many people 17 have, you must realize. To say that we can 18 solve the crime problem in New York City or any 19 city in the state by merely restricting the use 20 of innocent people to use guns, I think just 21 doesn't hold water, and it's never been proven. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 23 Gold. 2818 1 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 2 The only reference I want to make to Waco, 3 Senator Volker, and I understand the way it was 4 used by Senator Stavisky, but I wasn't going to 5 bring it up, but you made me think of it 6 because, Senator, if you read the newspaper 7 stories, one of them that I read, that reference 8 to a device called the "hell fire". 9 It's a device which costs about 10 20 or $30 and, if you put it behind the trigger 11 of a semi-automatic weapon, it would allow you 12 to fire that weapon as fast as if the weapon was 13 fully automatic and, as I need to tell you, I 14 mean if the result is the same the name 15 doesn't mean anything; and they pointed out that 16 the interesting thing was they used this by 17 name. 18 I found out about the "hell fire" 19 because in doing the work I do with guns, I buy 20 some of these gun magazines to see what's 21 around, and apparently in America everybody who 22 is a gun type person knows about this, and it 23 goes on the weapon in literally minutes. I 2819 1 bought one and took it over to the State Police 2 so they could see what it looked like, and so 3 when you say that this is legal and that's legal 4 and not legal, the "hell fire" is so American, 5 through magazines, it's touted as being legal 6 because theoretically you have not converted the 7 weapon, but you can fire that weapon as quickly 8 with the "hell fire" as if it was automatic. 9 Senator, when you say New York 10 City has these rigid gun lawns but we have such 11 a terrible crime problem, let me tell you what 12 the problem is, Senator Volker. It's you. It's 13 upstate New York. It's Connecticut -- not 14 Connecticut, it's Vermont, it's Florida. 15 I mean we have a situation where 16 we are trying to regulate guns in the city, but 17 as I showed in some of the buying that I do and 18 have done, you walk across our border and in 19 literally five or ten minutes, you walk out with 20 a Mosberg shotgun, an AK-47. I mean the people 21 in Albany can sell me the AK-47 in ten minutes. 22 It was incredible. I don't know the first thing 23 about the gun, and I walk out with the AK-47 and 2820 1 two clips, et cetera, et cetera. 2 Not only that, Senator Volker, 3 you talk about buying guns in New York and, 4 yeah, you can go on the streets of New York, you 5 can go on the streets around the state and buy 6 handguns illegally for a few hundred dollars 7 but, Senator Volker, forget about that. That's 8 -- that's you and I talkin' at a cocktail 9 party. 10 You know what goes on in this 11 state? This is what goes on. These are 12 photographs I took less than three weeks ago 13 right up here in Albany at the State Police. 14 You don't have to go in the streets of New 15 York. All you have to do is go to Service 16 Merchandise, like I did, for $69 you get a shot 17 gun, you take two saw cuts and you got a weapon 18 that they're using in the 7-11s, et cetera, 19 which is as -- almost as small as a handgun. 20 This one was about 13 inches long, fits under 21 your coat. They've got a whole cadre of altered 22 weapons. 23 So, Senator, you talk about New 2821 1 York City. Don't blame us for everything. You 2 can't buy these weapons in New York City without 3 a license. You can't alter a shotgun or a rifle 4 in New York City. You can't -- you can't get 5 it. You can't get the weapon in order to alter 6 it. 7 Now, you're right, Senator 8 Volker, these guns have been altered illegally, 9 but we're talking about a criminal element any 10 way. But in New York City, you can't buy the 11 weapon in order to alter it. You've got to go 12 to Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester and around the 13 state. So stop blaming New York City with its 14 gun laws. We're trying. 15 The problem is that, if you go 16 five minutes out of the city and buy all this 17 weaponry, read the advertisements in our New 18 York City newspapers, dragging people into 19 Nassau County for all the gun bargains. 20 Now, Senator, I was wondering. 21 The big hype that they -- that they have, for 22 example, the shotgun in this photograph, they 23 sell to women and they say, You don't want your 2822 1 wife to have a pistol, you know, for insurance 2 in the house. Give her one of these pistol grip 3 shotguns and she'll blow away whoever is in the 4 house. 5 I say to myself, it's terrific 6 advertising, but is anybody really doing this? 7 And the first thing I found out is, it's really 8 hard to get numbers on whether anybody really is 9 firing and protecting themselves with these 10 guns. There's a guy down in Florida whom I am 11 trying to hire as my accountant because he's 12 come up with such outrageously ridiculous 13 figures on the number of people that are using 14 guns in America, I figure maybe he can do 15 something with my budget, I don't know. 16 But I got a letter here two weeks 17 ago from the police commissioner of the city of 18 New York, and this letter really is interest 19 ing. First of all, how many times have I heard 20 on this floor that it isn't the people with the 21 licenses that commit crimes. They -- you know 22 what I mean, that they are crime-free; it's the 23 other guy. 2823 1 Well, Senator, I will acknowledge 2 that most of the people who commit crimes, the 3 overwhelming number that commit crimes are not 4 your licensees. But Senator, in 1992, 60 5 licensees were arrested to begin with, with 6 unlawful possession of weapons and 59 of them 7 were arrested committing felonies with firearms, 8 so it's not exactly like nobody who -- who gets 9 a license ever commits a crime. In terms of - 10 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President. 11 SENATOR GOLD: No, I won't 12 yield. 13 In terms of the numbers of 14 crimes - 15 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator. 16 SENATOR GOLD: No, I won't 17 yield. 18 Senator, in terms of the numbers 19 of crimes in New York, I will acknowledge to you 20 that 60 possessions and 59 felonies is not the 21 thing, but on the other hand let's not make the 22 silly argument on the other hand that everybody 23 who gets a gun license is exempt from committing 2824 1 crime. It is not true. It just isn't true. 2 Another figure which I think 3 would be very interesting: New York is a city of 4 millions of people, and there are a lot of guns 5 in New York City, legal guns, and a lot of 6 illegal guns. In calendar year 1992, the total 7 number of incidents where a licensee actually 8 discharged a firearm to protect themselves was 9 49. 49. 10 I mean I -- I have no problem 11 with an individual who wants to carry a gun and 12 they feel safer and, if they are a proper person 13 to have a gun, that's O.K. with me, but let's 14 put it in perspective. We don't have people all 15 over this city of New York grabbing their guns 16 to protect themselves, their houses and 17 everything else. Burglars like empty houses. 18 They don't like houses where they get shot at. 19 The problem, Senator, I think, is 20 a very obvious one, and I spoke about it on an 21 earlier bill today. I know a situation in the 22 city of New York, Senator Volker, where a man 23 was charged with actually shooting somebody, not 2825 1 having a gun, actually shooting someone. The 2 circumstances of that shooting were ridiculous, 3 impossible, and in my opinion the person should 4 not have been convicted, but the person did get 5 convicted. A judge found that the individual 6 not only had a gun but he fired it at a human 7 being, injured the human being. I don't know 8 why the guy went to trial. The sentence was 9 less than three months. Three months, Senator 10 Volker. 11 Now, if you read this law as I - 12 the strictest gun laws in the state, if you have 13 mere possession of a gun, you go to jail for a 14 year puh-puh!. Puh-puh! A year no less, 15 possession shooting somebody. 16 Senator, the problems, we know 17 the problems. They're in the courts. It is not 18 -- we're not going to solve the crime problem 19 and -- God bless you. We're not going to solve 20 the crime problem in New York by just opening 21 up the marketplace to more and more guns. I 22 mean let's at least in this chamber look each 23 other in the eye and try to have a little logic 2826 1 to what we're talking about. 2 Now, lastly, Senator Volker, I 3 want to say this: I think that there are some 4 very, very fine people who want to carry a gun 5 that never had any trouble in their lives and 6 probably should be able to get a gun a lot 7 easier than it is in the state of New York 8 today. 9 But there's another side of the 10 coin, Senator. The people who have the 11 political power in this state, the NRA, and I 12 acknowledge publicly that political power, don't 13 want to talk about anything. I have meetings 14 with them on little issues, little things like 15 having to take a class before you get a gun. 16 You have to take a class before you get a 17 driver's license. You have to take a class 18 before you get a hunting license but, if you 19 want to kill human beings in your house, then 20 you don't need a class. They'll tell me, no, 21 there's a crack in the door. 22 The day after they have a 23 meeting I'll start to get private phone calls 2827 1 and people say, You have a good idea. Well, 2 help me with it. Well, we can't come out and 3 say it. A simple thing like a waiting period 4 for rifles and shotguns. Simple. There are 5 some people out on Long Island who would be 6 alive today with a waiting period. There are 7 some students on a campus in Massachusetts who 8 would be alive today if there was a waiting 9 period. 10 So what I'm saying, Senator, is 11 there's a huge credibility gap. The NRA says to 12 everybody in -- that they have influence over, 13 that they're afraid of every little crack in the 14 door. Well, if you can't have any legitimate 15 negotiations on the one side, why should there 16 be negotiation on the other? 17 So the only thing we're left 18 with, Senator Volker, is why should we make it 19 easier to help people -- honest, legitimate 20 people, get the handguns when that same 21 organization won't help us on the other side 22 bring some meaningful easy legislation in that 23 would save lives? 2828 1 Now, Senator Volker, I admit to 2 you that some place in America, there was an 3 individual who woke up in the morning, planned 4 to do 85 other things, decided to go hunting, 5 didn't have a gun and had to get a license. But 6 that's not what happens all over the place. If 7 people are going to go hunting and they don't 8 have guns, they got a day or two. It's not so 9 terrible to say to somebody, you goin' to go 10 hunting, you'll buy your guns three days before 11 or five days. 12 None of these ideas I've spoken 13 about or other people have spoken about, the 14 Brady bill in Washington, none of these are 15 terrible, but you can't get anybody to talk 16 about them and, Senator, if the only -- if the 17 only thing they want to discuss are bills like 18 yours, there's never going to be a resolution. 19 So, Senator Volker, I said as 20 I've said so many times before, that you come to 21 this floor with a pure heart but, Senator, 22 you're going to have the honor of carrying this 23 bill for more years because the entire subject 2829 1 has to be dealt with and nobody wants to deal 2 with the entire subject. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the 4 last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect on the 1st day of 7 November. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 12 Montgomery to explain her vote. 13 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, thank 14 you, Mr. President. To explain my vote. 15 I wanted to, just for the record, 16 correct Senator Volker who says accurately that 17 -- not inaccurately, I believe, excuse me, that 18 this will -- removing guns from the streets will 19 not deal with the crime issue and, while I agree 20 with that, I do not accept that fully, but even 21 if I accept the premise that removing guns will 22 not eliminate the crime problem, it certainly 23 will eliminate the problem that we have of 2830 1 children killing children, innocent bystanders 2 being killed accidentally on the streets who 3 have nothing whatsoever to do with crime, 4 children being killed in school and New York 5 City having to spend millions of dollars for 6 detectors so that students can be -- can go 7 through a metal detector before entering school, 8 and on and on. 9 So while it's not the final 10 solution, I think it is a very important issue 11 for us to resolve, and that is to remove this 12 level of violence from the streets so that 13 innocent people won't have to fear for their 14 lives, and we can deal with the other crime. 15 I'm certainly happy to work with you for many 16 years to come on that. But this, I think, we 17 can do right now. 18 And, Senator Volker, I wish you 19 would consider that as you look to expand the 20 availability of guns in this state and in the 21 City. 22 I'm voting no. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Results. 2831 1 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 2 the negative on Calendar Number 460 are Senators 3 Connor, Gold, Halperin, Jones, Leichter, Marchi, 4 Markowitz, Masiello, Montgomery, Nolan, 5 Ohrenstein, Onorato, Oppenheimer, Paterson, 6 Smith, Solomon, Stavisky and Waldon, also 7 Senator Dollinger. Ayes 40, nays 19. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill 9 is passed. 10 We'll return to reports of 11 standing committees. 12 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Mr. 13 President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 15 Markowitz. 16 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Yes. With 17 the permission of the President, I'd like to 18 vote in the negative on Calendar Number 455. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without 20 objection. 21 Reports of standing committee. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese, 23 from the Committee on Crime Victims, Crime and 2832 1 Corrections, reports the following bill directly 2 for third reading: 3 Senate Bill Number 4651, by the 4 Senate Committee on Rules, an act to amend 5 Chapter 79 of the Laws of 1989, amending the 6 Correction Law and other laws. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without 8 objection, third reading calendar. 9 Senator Kuhl. 10 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, Mr. 11 President. On page -- excuse me. On page 26 I 12 offer the following amendments to Calendar 13 Number 395, Senate Print 3414, and ask that said 14 bill retain its place on the Third Reading 15 Calendar. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: 17 Amendments received and adopted. So ordered. 18 SENATOR KUHL: Thank you. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 20 Velella. 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Yesterday I was 22 out of the chamber when Calendar Number 132, 23 Senate Print 1938, was voted on. Had I been 2833 1 present, I would have voted no, and I'd like the 2 record to so reflect with unanimous consent. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without 4 objection, Senator Velella. 5 Senator Present. 6 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 7 can we stand at ease for a moment. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: At ease 9 for a moment. 10 SENATOR PRESENT: Or two. Or two. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator 13 Mendez. 14 SENATOR MENDEZ: May I be 15 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 16 460. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without 18 objection. 19 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Wait a minute, 21 wait a minute. 22 (Whereupon the Senate stood at 23 ease. ) 2834 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 2 Present. 3 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes, Mr. 4 President. I'd like to announce there will be a 5 Majority Conference tomorrow at 11:00 a.m. 6 promptly. There being no further business, I 7 move we adjourn until tomorrow at 11:30. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The 9 Senate will stand adjourned until tomorrow at 10 11:30. 11 (Whereupon at 6:10 p.m., the 12 Senate adjourned. ) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23