Wednesday, April 28, 1993

2835 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 April 28, 1993 11 1:45 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 SENATOR NICHOLAS A. SPANO, Acting President 19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 20 21 22 23 2836 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The 3 Senate will come to order. 4 All please rise for the Pledge of 5 Allegiance. 6 (Whereupon the Senate joined in 7 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. ) 8 In the absence of clergy, let us 9 please bow our heads for a moment of silence. 10 (Whereupon there was a moment of 11 silence. ) 12 Reading of the Journal. 13 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 14 Tuesday, April 27. The Senate met pursuant to 15 adjournment. Senator Mega in the chair upon 16 designation of the Temporary President. The 17 Journal of Monday, April 26, was read and 18 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 19 Hearing no objection, the Journal 20 stands approved as read. 21 Presentation of petitions. 22 Messages from the Assembly. 23 Messages from the Governor. 2837 1 Secretary will read. Don't want 2 to read it yet? Okay. 3 Reports of standing committees. 4 Reports of select committees. 5 Communications and reports from 6 state officers. 7 Motions and resolutions. 8 Secretary will read. 9 Senator Padavan. 10 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President, 11 on page 24, I offer the following amendments to 12 Calendar 429, Senate Print Number 116, and 13 request that said bill retain its place on the 14 Third Reading Calendar. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Without 16 objection. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 19 Gold. 20 SENATOR GOLD: How are you, sir? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Fine, 22 sir. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Good. Mr. 2838 1 President. On behalf of Senator Halperin, who 2 is right now engaged in other important matters 3 of state, yes, I move to discharge the following 4 bill from its respective committee and ask that 5 it be recommitted to that committee with 6 instructions to strike the enacting clause: 7 Senate Print 3967. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Without 9 objection. 10 Senator Maltese. 11 SENATOR MALTESE: On behalf of 12 Senator Holland, please star Calendar Number 13 441, Senate Print 464. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 15 is starred at the request of the sponsor. 16 Senator Kuhl. 17 SENATOR KUHL: Yes. Calendar 18 Number 395, Mr. President, which is on the 19 starred calendar, I would like to remove the 20 sponsor star. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Remove 22 the sponsor star on Calendar 395, so moved. 23 Any other motions and 2839 1 resolutions? 2 Secretary will read. 3 THE SECRETARY: On page 13 of 4 today's calendar, Senator Daly moves to 5 discharge the Committee on Environmental 6 Conservation from Assembly Bill Number 583 and 7 substitute it for the identical Calendar Number 8 577. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 10 Substitution ordered. 11 Senator Present, we're ready to 12 begin the calendar. 13 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 14 let's take up the non-controversial calendar. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 16 Secretary will read. 17 THE SECRETARY: On page 26, 18 Calendar Number 462, by Senator Volker, Senate 19 Bill Number 3907, Criminal Procedure Law and the 20 Penal Law - 21 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 22 for the day. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it 2840 1 aside for the day. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 465, by Senator Hannon, Senate Bill Number 643, 4 Administrative Code of the city. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it 7 aside. 8 THE SECRETARY: 466, by Senator 9 Bruno, Senate Bill Number 3021. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it 12 aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senate Bill - 14 Calendar Number 467, by Senator Hannon, Senate 15 Bill Number 3169, Real Property Law, in relation 16 to the sale of mobile homes. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 18 last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2841 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 468, by Senator Hannon, Senate Bill Number 3170, 6 Real Property Law. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 8 last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 469, by Senator Hannon, Senate Bill Number 3173, 19 Real Property Law and the Private Housing 20 Finance Law. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 22 last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2842 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 3 roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 7 is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 472, by Senator Goodman, Senate Bill Number 10 2801, Education Law, in relation to providing 11 state aid. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 13 last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 21 is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 473, by Senator Marino. 2843 1 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it 3 aside. 4 (Whereupon, Senator Marino 5 entered the chamber. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marino's 7 bill. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Will the record 9 note that I'm only doing my job, and it was 10 other people who asked me just in case Senator 11 Marino hears about this. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 474, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill 3970, an 14 act to amend the Education Law. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 16 last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 2844 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 477, by Senator Spano, Senate Bill Number 3382, 4 Mental Hygiene Law. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 6 last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 14 is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 478, by Senator Spano. 17 SENATOR SMITH: Lay it aside. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it 19 aside for the day. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 479, by Senator Seward, Senate Bill Number 3670, 22 an act to amend the Mental Hygiene Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Local 2845 1 fiscal impact note is at the desk. 2 Read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 10 is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 485, by Senator Larkin. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 15 Gold. 16 SENATOR GOLD: On behalf of 17 Senator Oppenheimer, who has discussed this with 18 Assemblywoman Nolan, can we lay this aside 19 temporarily. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it 21 aside. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 498, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 4595, 2846 1 proposing an amendment to the constitution. 2 SENATOR GOLD: On behalf of 3 everybody but me lay it aside. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it 5 aside. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 558, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 4596. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it 10 aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 570, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate 13 Bill Number 4651, an act to amend Chapter 79 of 14 the Laws of 1989 amending the Correction Law. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 16 Present. 17 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 18 is there a message of n ecessity at the desk? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Yes, 20 there is. 21 SENATOR PRESENT: I move we 22 accept the message. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: On the 2847 1 motion. All those in favor, signify by saying 2 aye. 3 ((Response of "Aye.") 4 Those opposed, nay. 5 (There was no response. ) 6 The motion is accepted. 7 Read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 15 is passed. 16 Senator Present, that completes 17 the non-controversial calendar. 18 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 19 Would you call up Calendar 485, have the last 20 section read, and take a roll call for a couple 21 members who would like to leave. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Calendar 23 485. The Secretary will read. 2848 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 485, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 4597, 3 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law and 4 the Transportation Law. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 6 last section. 7 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 8 would you recognize Senator Maltese first. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 13 Tully. 14 SENATOR TULLY: Aue, Mr. 15 President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 17 Seward. 18 SENATOR SEWARD: I vote aye. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Withdraw 20 the roll call. Lay the bill aside. 21 Senator Present. 22 SENATOR PRESENT: Now go back to 23 the controversial calendar. 2849 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 2 Jones. 3 SENATOR JONES: Yes. I would 4 like unanimous consent to be recorded as a no on 5 474, please. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Calendar 7 474, the record will so indicate. 8 Senator Kuhl? 9 (There was no response. ) 10 Secretary will read 11 controversial. 12 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you call 13 up 498, please. I'm sorry. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Calendar 15 498. The Secretary will read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 498, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 4595, 18 proposing an amendment to the constitution. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on. I 20 understand that Senator Connor has an amendment 21 on this bill, and I'm trying to get him to the 22 chamber. 23 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 2850 1 will you lay that bill aside temporarily. 2 And I think Senator Kuhl has a 3 privileged resolution. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay 5 aside 498. 6 Senator Kuhl. 7 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, Mr. 8 President. Is there a privileged resolution at 9 the desk sponsored by Senator Sears? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Yes, 11 there is, Senator. 12 SENATOR KUHL: If there is, I 13 would like to move its adoption and ask the 14 clerk to read the title of the resolution. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 16 Secretary will read the title of the resolution. 17 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 18 Resolution, by Senator Sears, paying tribute to 19 Gail Wolanin Young upon the occasion of her 20 designation for special honor as Town Clerk of 21 the Year by New York State Town Clerks 22 Association, Incorporated. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: On the 2851 1 resolution. All those in favor, aye. 2 (Response of "Aye.") 3 Those opposed, nay. 4 (There was no response. ) 5 The resolution is adopted. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 8 Gold. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Perhaps we 10 could take care of another piece of business, 11 too. Senator Oppenheimer has a resolution; and 12 if I could yield to Senator Oppenheimer, perhaps 13 we could do that. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 15 Present. 16 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you 17 recognize Senator Oppenheimer. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 19 Oppenheimer. 20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you 21 very much. We have -- the title of the 22 resolution, I believe, is "Take Our Daughters To 23 Work" resolution. I would appreciate if you 2852 1 would read 1040. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The 3 resolution is at the desk, Senator Oppenheimer. 4 Secretary will read the title of the resolution. 5 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you. 6 Read the title, and then if you would be good 7 enough to read the rest of it. 8 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 9 Resolution, by Senator Oppenheimer, Resolution 10 Number 1040, recognizing and celebrating the 11 first annual "Take Our Daughters To Work Day" in 12 the State of New York. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: On the 14 resolution. All those - 15 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: If you 16 would be good enough to read it. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: You 18 would like it to be read in total? 19 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Please. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Yes, 21 Senator. Secretary will read the entire 22 resolution. 23 THE SECRETARY: Whereas, April 2853 1 28, 1993, marks the occasion of a nationwide 2 endeavor to "Take Our Daughters To Work," a 3 program designed to enhance the self-worth of 4 girls today and acquaint employers with the work 5 force of tomorrow. 6 Girls from all over New York have 7 come to the State Legislature in Albany to 8 participate in "Take Our Daughters To Work" with 9 Senators, Assembly members and legislative 10 staff, an effort designed to help young women 11 envision their role as government policy makers 12 of the future. 13 New research commissioned by the 14 American Association of University Women shows 15 that at the age of 9 most girls are confident, 16 assertive, and feel positive about themselves, 17 but fewer than a third of the girls will 18 maintain a self-assured attitude through high 19 school. 20 The Ms. Foundation for Women has 21 demonstrated the insight and determination to 22 actively respond to this disconcerting data by 23 founding an annual "Take Our Daughters To Work" 2854 1 program as part of their National Girls 2 Initiative. 3 Education and career 4 opportunities for girls have expanded over the 5 years, but girls and women still receive mixed 6 messages about their role in modern society and 7 continue to be subjected to gender bias in the 8 classroom and the workplace. 9 By the year 2000, it is estimated 10 that women will fill two of every three 11 positions available in the workplace, and it is 12 therefore beneficial to both employers and 13 future employees that we begin to prepare young 14 girls for the prominent roles they will assume. 15 Women are drastically under 16 represented in elective government. The 17 Legislature's participation in "Take Our 18 Daughters To Work" will help to expose girls to 19 the full range of opportunities available to 20 them as they consider career choices. 21 In 1992, a record number of women 22 were elected to the United States Congress and 23 the New York State Legislature, providing girls 2855 1 with more women role models in political careers 2 than ever before in our nation's history. The 3 young participants in "Take Our Daughters To 4 Work" represent the next generation of leaders 5 who will take us even further in our efforts to 6 perfect representative democracy in this country 7 by increasing the number of women in government 8 to reflect the 51 percent of the population 9 which is female. 10 Now, therefore be it resolved, 11 that this legislative body pause in its 12 deliberation to recognize and celebrate the 13 first annual "Take Our Daughters To Work Day" to 14 encourage girls to recognize their self-worth 15 and inspire them to live up to the highest 16 standards of personal achievement and public 17 involvement. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 19 Oppenheimer. 20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Mr. 21 President. I just very briefly want to welcome 22 all the young women, the young ladies that have 23 come to the New York State Legislature to 2856 1 participate in "Take Our Daughters To Work 2 Day". 3 It is a very exciting day for 4 those of us in the Legislature, and I hope it 5 will be for all of you. We had an extraordinary 6 number of young people come and join us today. 7 We actually had almost a mob scene, and it was 8 absolutely delightful to see all these young 9 women interested in government, asking questions 10 about government and participating with us. 11 And we want these young women to 12 know that we look forward to them considering 13 government as one of their many options as they 14 look around at the work world and the work force 15 that they will be a part of in the next decade 16 or fifteen years, and that we hope they will 17 consider government as an option. It is an 18 exciting field and we need women's voices in 19 government just as surely as we need men's 20 voices. And so we are not looking to exclude 21 men merely to add women and to have a population 22 in this chamber that is representative, after 23 all, of what the population of the real world 2857 1 is. 2 We encourage you in your 3 endeavors and look forward to listening to you, 4 hearing what you think, hearing what you feel, 5 so that we can act upon those issues that are 6 important to you and that eventually you will 7 want to join us in this arena. 8 We thank you all for coming. 9 It's been a very exciting day for us. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 11 Mendez. 12 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President. 13 I feel very, very happy with the project today 14 that we are all celebrating through the 15 resolution that has been introduced. I was not 16 blessed with having any children, daughters, but 17 I was blessed in having two staff members of 18 mine that they have two wonderful girls that 19 they have been participating today. 20 I really must acknowledge the 21 graciousness of Senator Libous when I took my 22 two girls today to a committee meeting, Mara 23 Teresos stand up and Risa Clark, stand up. They 2858 1 went to the committee meeting. They asked 2 questions on two bills, all my colleagues there 3 celebrated their enthusiasm in doing some work 4 today in our government. 5 So I am very pleased and most 6 appreciative. Among all these wonderful girls 7 here we might end up, who knows, some day having 8 a woman President. And at least I know of one 9 little girl who told me that she wants to be a 10 Senator which she never thought that she would 11 want to be ever, and one other girl said that, 12 yes, it wouldn't be bad to be President some 13 day. 14 So this is a wonderful activity, 15 and we are all celebrating it, and we thank the 16 girls for participating and taking this whole 17 day with great seriousness. 18 Thank you, Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 20 Dollinger. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 22 President. Thank you. 23 On this day that we take our 2859 1 daughters to work, I'm proud to recognize my 2 daughter who is in the chamber who I brought to 3 work today. She will die of embarrassment when 4 I say it, but she's the young lady up there with 5 the blond hair. 6 (Laughter) 7 I guess there are many of them up 8 there with blond hair. She's the one, Senator 9 Gold, with the extremely red face in the front 10 row. 11 And, Mr. President, I think the 12 message to my daughter and I hope to every one's 13 daughter that's in this chamber today is that I 14 want you all to think of a day in the year 2018, 15 25 years from now, when we'll be celebrating the 16 25th anniversary of the "Take Your Daughter To 17 Work," and it's my hope that all of the young 18 women here today will be able to bring their 19 daughters back to this chamber. 20 Because I want all of you to know 21 that there is a seat down here, there is a seat 22 in government, there is a part of government 23 that the people of your generation will need 2860 1 your insight and your abilities. It's my hope 2 that you will all take a seat down here; that 3 our community and our state will again be a 4 leader in the movement to make women more a part 5 of our political community. 6 And I have only one concluding 7 thought for my daughter. Please, Maureen, don't 8 primary your father for the seat. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 10 Jones. 11 SENATOR JONES: I would just like 12 to say I didn't bring my own daughter today 13 because they are already grown and in the work 14 force, but I'm very proud that I did bring a 15 very dear friend from home, and I'm also lucky 16 enough to have a young lady from Albany. 17 I probably more than anyone here 18 represents a generation that those opportunities 19 were not available for young women, and it's 20 quite unusual at this age in life I did get this 21 opportunity. So I am very thrilled to be here 22 today and take part for this the first time and 23 see so many young people that know today that 2861 1 those doors are open for them, and it's theirs 2 for the asking. 3 So I'm thrilled to be here and 4 I'm very happy to see so many young girls 5 hopefully looking toward a career to be here in 6 the years to come. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 8 Hoffmann. 9 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Like many of 10 the other parents in this chamber, I take a 11 singular pleasure in knowing that on this one 12 day we are sharing our work experience with 13 young people and letting you know what it is 14 that we do on a regular basis. But we want you 15 to understand that it is not always easy, and 16 those of you who have parents who work outside 17 of the home, be they mothers or fathers, this is 18 a good opportunity for you to start assessing 19 how you will manage these two sometimes 20 competing plans in your future. 21 I'm a mother and I'm proud of 22 being a mother, and that's the most meaningful 23 job that I have, but I'm also extremely proud to 2862 1 represent 297,000 people in the 48th Senate 2 District. The message for each one of you is 3 that you can be both of those roles if you 4 decide to be some time in the future, and you 5 should be equally happy doing each of them, and 6 our job is to help make it meaningful and 7 stimulating and supportive as a society for you 8 to be successful in each of those capacities. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: On the 10 resolution. 11 Senator Marchi. 12 SENATOR MARCHI: Mr. President, I 13 was sorely tempted to vote against this 14 resolution as it was being read because it 15 proscribed or it rooted itself to prescriptive 16 mandates tied into statistical norms, and I 17 don't think you should do that when you are 18 talking about human beings. 19 But all of the comments that were 20 made after in a by those who got up and 21 testified and spoke to the issue of an open 22 society and the availability to all of our 23 people to realize their potential, I thought 2863 1 this was a highly redemptive factor. 2 So I'm voting for your remarks, 3 Suzi -- Senator. I'm voting for the remarks 4 that placed everything that was contained in the 5 resolution itself in perspective but not 6 necessarily every single i and t that was dotted 7 and crossed in the resolution itself. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: On the 9 resolution. All those in favor signify by 10 saying aye. 11 (Response of "Aye.") 12 Those opposed, nay. 13 (There was no response. ) 14 The resolution is adopted. 15 I might add on behalf of all of 16 the Senators and on behalf of Senator Marino, 17 the Majority Leader, we would like to welcome 18 all of our guests here today, especially all of 19 the young women who took part in the "Take Your 20 Daughter To Work" program. 21 Welcome to the state capitol, and 22 we hope you enjoyed your experience. 23 (Applause. ) 2864 1 Senator Tully. 2 SENATOR TULLY: Yes. Mr. 3 President. On page 21, I offer the following 4 amendments to Calendar Number 287, Senate Print 5 Number 724A, and ask that said bill retain its 6 place on the Third Reading Calendar. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Without 8 objection. 9 Senator Dollinger. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 11 President. Just as a point of clarification, 12 474 was voted on and approved? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 474 was 14 passed previously today. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Can I have 16 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative 17 on that bill, Mr. President? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Without 19 objection. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 22 Present. 23 SENATOR PRESENT: May we take up 2865 1 Calendar 498, please? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 3 Secretary will read Calendar 498. 4 THE SECRETARY: On page 29, 5 Calendar Number 498, by Senator Marino, Senate 6 Bill Number 4595, proposing amendment to the 7 constitution. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 9 Connor. 10 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. I call up my amendment, waive its 12 reading and ask to explain it. 13 I think the best way to approach 14 this is to first point out what the proposed 15 Constitutional Amendment by the Majority would 16 do and how it would operate and then to show the 17 difference in the way - 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator Connor, 19 will you yield for a second? 20 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 22 Skelos. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: I realize that 2866 1 this is Senator Marino's bill and I'm not 2 Senator Marino. He has asked me to perhaps 3 explain what's before the Senate today. If you 4 would like to explain your amendment, that's 5 fine. But I think as to the concurrent 6 resolution, I think it would be more 7 appropriate, on behalf of Senator Marino, if I 8 explain it. 9 SENATOR CONNOR: I will contrast 10 it is what I want to do. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Well, I haven't 12 explained it yet, so it's difficult - 13 SENATOR CONNOR: How about if I 14 withdraw my amendment and ask for an explanation 15 of the bill, and thin offer my amendment. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: That would be 17 fine. That would be fine. Thank you very much, 18 Senator Connor. 19 Mr. President, this is a 20 concurrent resolution amending Section 1 of 21 Article V of the State Constitution, in relation 22 to filling a vacancy in the office of 23 Comptroller and/or the Attorney General. 2867 1 The three main components of this 2 proposal are that prior to April 1 of the last 3 year of the term, the Governor must within ten 4 days of the vacancy make proclamation of a 5 special election to be held not less than 30 6 days nor more than 40 days from the date of the 7 proclamation. After April 1, the Legislature by 8 concurrent resolution would appoint a person to 9 fill such office for the remainder of the term 10 of that office. That's by concurrent 11 resolutions of the two houses. 12 If a vacancy should occur at any 13 time other than after April 1 of the last year 14 of such unexpired term and a special election 15 would fall within 60 days of the next general 16 election, the election to fill the vacancy for 17 such unexpired term will be held at the time of 18 that general election. 19 Now, two occurrences have 20 occurred in the past six months or so which have 21 documented the need for Senator Marino's 22 concurrent resolution. 23 Number 1, we have the immediate 2868 1 resignation of Ned Regan as Comptroller and, 2 number 2, we had a situation where last November 3 if Bob Abrams had been successful in his 4 election bid for the United States Senate 5 against Senator D'Amato, there would have been a 6 vacancy there also. 7 At the present time, the State 8 Constitution does not allow for direct input by 9 the public in the replacement of a state 10 Comptroller or Attorney General when a vacancy 11 occurs. In place of a vote of the people, the 12 current provisions call for the creation of a 13 legislative superhouse consisting of 211 state 14 legislators to fill such vacancy. 15 In behalf of the Majority and 16 Senator Marino, it's our position that this 17 vacancy would be better filled by a vote of the 18 people of the State of New York. 19 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you. Mr. 20 President. 21 (Whereupon Senator Libous was in 22 the chair. ) 23 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator 2869 1 Connor. 2 SENATOR CONNOR: I now call up my 3 amendment, waive its reading and ask to explain 4 it. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Okay. 6 Senator Connor on the amendment. 7 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. 9 I think Senator Skelos fairly 10 described what this amendment would do as far as 11 it goes, but I think it's important to look at 12 the practical way it would operate. And let me 13 say, I got here initially through a special 14 election. I know the special election process, 15 and there have been a variety of suggestions 16 over the years to change it as it applies to 17 members of Congress or legislators. 18 The one overriding policy 19 consideration with respect to those bodies to 20 have a quick election, 30 to 40 days from 21 proclamation, is of course that if you don't 22 fill a legislative representative seat the 23 people of that district lose their input in 2870 1 government. They lose their voice and vote. 2 In the case of the Comptroller or 3 the Attorney General, we are dealing with people 4 who don't have that same representative 5 function. No discrete section of the state 6 loses its voice if the vacancy persists for a 7 couple months or is filled on an interim basis. 8 I applaud the idea of the people 9 choosing their representatives. Indeed, as I 10 was preparing to come to Albany on Sunday night, 11 my wife said to me, "What are your next two 12 weeks like in Albany?" I said, "I think they'll 13 be preoccupied with this Comptroller's race." 14 There are hearings the Democrats are having this 15 week. She said, "Hearings? Since when do 16 candidates go to hearings? When is the 17 election?" 18 Now, I should point out that one 19 of the candidates is a near neighbor and a near 20 lifetime friend of ours, and my wife was 21 certainly well aware of all the people who put 22 their names forward, several of them being 23 personal friends. 2871 1 I thought, "Gee." She said, "You 2 mean the people don't get to vote? Just you 3 folks in the Legislature?" And that quite 4 disturbed her. I understand why. 5 Now, look. For the present go 6 around, the constitution is the constitution. 7 We certainly can't change it on short notice. 8 It takes the vote of the people after two 9 successive Legislatures have spoken. 10 And I don't think the fact that 11 we have this constitution in any way impugns the 12 legitimacy of whomever gets elected. One of the 13 greatest Attorney Generals in my opinion in the 14 state of New York, Louie Lefkowitz, was elected 15 through this process and subsequently won 16 numerous other elections. 17 But this resolution the Majority 18 has brought out does point out there is probably 19 a better way, but I think my amendment shows an 20 even better way, a way that gives voice to all 21 of the people. 22 What's wrong with a special 23 election on 30 to 40 days' notice? Well, how do 2872 1 you select the candidates? Well, the five 2 political parties, Democrat, Republican, 3 Liberal, Conservative, Right to Life Party, all 4 get to put a candidate on the ballot through 5 their party rules; in other words, their party 6 leaders sit down in a room and decide here's the 7 candidate that gets on the ballot. 8 I call to mind the horse trading 9 involved in that within a major party and 10 perhaps for the minor party lines. That's 11 politics. You can't take politics out of the 12 process when you set it up and empower the party 13 bosses and the party leaders to pick the 14 candidates. 15 What are the alternatives? Can 16 there be an independent candidate who petitions 17 to get on the ballot? Well, think about it. 18 You are proclaiming the election on a 40- to 19 60-day basis. The Election Law provisions would 20 give an independent candidate somewhere between 21 eight and ten days to get all the signatures 22 around the state. Remember, a hundred from half 23 of the counties around the state? I think we 2873 1 have lowered it to 10,000, perhaps 15,000 now 2 signatures -- 10,000 signatures. But in a 3 special election it's usually even a greater 4 task. 5 And, frankly, I have been 6 involved in campaigns, many campaigns that had 7 to petition statewide, either for a primary or 8 as independent candidates. It is a mammoth 9 undertaking. It cannot be done in eight to ten 10 days. You can't do it physically. It would 11 never work. 12 So the Majority's proposal says 13 we'll have a special election, and the only 14 candidates on the ballot are the ones the party 15 bosses pick. And while theoretically an 16 independent could run, it's physically 17 impossible to get enough signatures to survive 18 our draconian, archaic Election Law, which was 19 only in minor ways made easier by the so-called 20 "reform legislation" of 1992. 21 So that what you are saying here 22 is we shouldn't let the 211 elected 23 representatives of the people pick. We should 2874 1 let the party bosses put forth anywhere from two 2 to five names, and then have a hurry-up 3 statewide special election. 4 Now, Mr. President, I have seen 5 special elections for virtually every office 6 from Assembly to Congress. They are messy 7 affairs in the sense that they are hurry-up 8 affairs. They are three-week, four-week 9 campaigns. It's difficult to get a message 10 out. It's expensive to get a message out. And 11 if you are talking about a statewide campaign, 12 incredibly expensive. 13 And what's the result of all the 14 efforts? I have seen tens of thousands of 15 dollars, in excess of hundreds of thousands of 16 dollars spent to try and get a political message 17 out in a special election and encourage voters 18 to turn out. And what happens? Oh, you get 19 turnouts of anywhere from 10 to 15 to 20 percent 20 of the voters if you're lucky. 21 I'm not ashamed to say because I 22 won, but I won this seat initially with 2500 23 votes, and that was five times the number of 2875 1 votes my only opponent, the Republican, got. 2 Three thousand people out of the then 278,000 or 3 282,000 people in my district voted in a special 4 election and I campaigned and my opponent 5 campaigned. 6 The fact of the matter is -- and 7 we have all seen special elections. Turnout is 8 low. Who knows they are supposed to come out in 9 the snow in February to vote on a Tuesday or a 10 Thursday? In my own case, it was Valentine's 11 Day. Who knew they were supposed to go vote 12 then? Who cared? Voters have to focus on 13 orderly elections to get a turnout. It has to 14 be an anticipated date. Everybody knows some 15 time in November there is an election. They 16 don't know there could be one in April or 17 January or December or July. This proposal 18 could well result in a special election in mid 19 summer some time. When people are away on 20 vacations, who's focusing on elections. 21 And it's all a hurry-up. It 22 could be as short as 30 days, 30 days, barely 23 enough time for the political bosses to meet in 2876 1 the smoke-filled rooms to pick the candidates. 2 No time for independent voices to come forward. 3 No time for people unbeholding to the political 4 system to get their name on the ballot and make 5 their case to the voters. They'll never make 6 their case to the voters because I can't imagine 7 anybody making the ballot statewide in eight to 8 ten days. It cannot be done under our present 9 Election Law, I assure you. 10 But a good idea to let the voters 11 have a voice. Not just a good idea, a wonderful 12 idea. A true democratic with a small "d" idea. 13 What does my amendment do? My 14 amendment says, Look, vacancies get created. 15 People die, people resign, people get removed 16 from office. You can't predict when that will 17 happen. You cannot predict it. You do have to 18 fill the vacancies without a doubt. 19 Now, what's my amendment say? 20 Let's do it in an orderly way which gives true 21 voice to the public. Let's have primaries for 22 the political parties. Left the rank and file 23 turn out and vote after the case has been made 2877 1 by the parties' aspirants and pick the parties' 2 candidates. And then let's have an election on 3 election day, in November, that Tuesday in 4 November when people are accustomed to voting, 5 when people turn out, when in many places it's a 6 holiday. People have off from work. They have 7 time to vote. The campaign gets in high gear in 8 September and October when people are finished 9 with the frivolities and relaxation of summer 10 and can focus on the issues. That's the better 11 way. That's how you get four or five million 12 New Yorkers out to vote, or more, hopefully, if 13 we do the right thing about voter registration 14 and making it easier for people to participate 15 in the process. You have a statewide special 16 election and you are going to find out that 17 500,000 to a million people may vote. Why the 18 loser last time for Comptroller got over two 19 million votes. 20 So the fact of the matter is my 21 amendment says the following. When there is a 22 vacancy that occurs in a timely fashion to have 23 a primary -- and the courts and the Election Law 2878 1 deal with that. It would be a vacancy that 2 occurred before the end of the regular petition 3 process, a vacancy that occurred as of some time 4 in July. You would have primaries in the 5 parties if you had more than one candidate. 6 Under our statewide system, you have a party 7 convention that could put someone on the ballot 8 for the primary, put more than one person on the 9 ballot -- anyone who got more than 25 percent on 10 any ballot, as we know. That's worked. That's 11 put a lot of people, at least in the Democratic 12 Party. It's produced four-way primaries because 13 of the desire to let the rank and file, the 14 public, vote. Anyone who didn't like the party 15 convention can go out and petition and get on 16 the ballot for the primary. They'd have time to 17 do it. Anyone who didn't like the parties and 18 said, "Phew on your parties; I don't want 19 anything to do with you; I'm an independent 20 voice," would have time to go out during the 21 regular accustomed independent petition 22 process. They would have several weeks to get 23 those signatures from all over the state. The 2879 1 100 ballot signatures from half of the 2 Congressional districts, to get that petition 3 effort coordinated, get in the petitions, do 4 what you have to do with it, make sure the 5 information is complete and file them. There 6 would be time for that for independent 7 candidates, for party candidates to challenge 8 the party leadership, all of these people would 9 have a right to get on the primary or the 10 general election ballot, and the people would 11 decide and as many voters as we can expect to 12 turn out would decide. Not some flukey 12 13 percent turnout in a snowstorm in January, but 14 at least, hopefully, the kind of turnouts we've 15 been seeing, which abysmal though they are in 16 the 60 percent range, are certainly better than 17 12 percent. 18 That's why I am against the 19 principal amendment because it's a step in the 20 wrong direction. It won't encourage voter 21 participation. My amendment will. Now, what do 22 you do in the meantime? Of necessity, the 23 Majority's proposal and my amendment recognizes 2880 1 that vacancies sometimes occur at inconvenient 2 times. We have all seen regrettable unfortunate 3 incidents of candidates dying on election day or 4 the day before or whatever. These things 5 happen. We can't predict this, and we do have 6 to have government go on in an orderly fashion 7 before we can have time to schedule the 8 appropriate elections. 9 The Majority says, Well, let's - 10 you know, in the meantime until we can get this 11 special election going, let's have a resolution 12 from each house agree on a candidate. 13 Now, I understand well the 14 frustrations of being in the Minority. I have 15 dealt with that for fifteen years. And under 16 this presently constituted Legislature with the 17 super legislature that Senator Skelos rightly 18 points out is the body our constitution says is 19 supposed to fill the vacancy -- I agree totally 20 with that -- the Majority in this house is in 21 the Minority, and it's frustrating. Believe me, 22 it's frustrating. But that's the system today. 23 To say, well, what we should do 2881 1 is treat it like it's a bill and it has to have 2 the concurrence -- the person to be elected must 3 have the concurrence of each house separately is 4 not practical when there is divided government. 5 What do you do then? Negotiate over who is 6 going to be Attorney General or Comptroller for 7 months and months and months? Treat it like the 8 budget? Treat it like the budget, who knows 9 what deadlines will be missed if history is any 10 precedent. That's not practical. 11 The one thing that any 12 constitutional scholar or government, political 13 science scholar will say about elections, about 14 filling vacancies, about continuity in 15 government, is that you want a process that has 16 a certainty of result. There is a premium on 17 that. You want a result. You might not like 18 the result. But having a result is far better 19 than having no government, the office unfilled, 20 drift, chaos, destruction of morale in whatever 21 executive branch you're dealing with. 22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator 2882 1 Nozzolio, why do you rise? 2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President, 3 will the Senator yield? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator 5 Connor, will you yield? 6 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly, Mr. 7 President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: He will 9 yield. 10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator 11 Connor, does your amendment impact the election 12 that's taking place, the selection that's taking 13 place now for the Comptroller? 14 SENATOR CONNOR: No, no, 15 absolutely not. 16 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: As I 17 understand it, Senator, then your measure has 18 nothing whatsoever to do with the current 19 selection of the Comptroller? 20 SENATOR CONNOR: Correct. Just 21 as the Majority proposal - 22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 23 President. 2883 1 SENATOR CONNOR: -- has nothing 2 to do with the current selection. 3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 4 President. 5 SENATOR CONNOR: I think what 6 both the Minority and the Majority in this house 7 is seeing is that we're not satisfied in the 8 modern day with the way the existing 9 constitutional formula operates. So the 10 Majority has a proposal to change it. I have 11 what I think is a better proposal to change it 12 that will enfranchise more voters, that won't 13 just buck the real -- the real decision to party 14 bosses. I don't think that's a step in the 15 right direction. That's a step in the wrong 16 direction for all the faults and flaws, for all 17 the imperfections of the present system, at 18 least 211 known democratically, with a small 19 "d", elected representatives will make the 20 choice, will answer for it to the voters. 21 Under the Majority proposal, not 22 so well-known party leaders will, in effect, 23 make the choice. Oh, there will be a special 2884 1 election, and there will probably be two 2 contenders, but each of them will have arrived 3 there through a closed process and any 4 independent voice would be shut out. 5 Under the present system, we hear 6 from everybody. Whether an independent who 7 wanted to run, we could hear from that person. 8 They could state their case. So I'm not 9 defending the present system. I'm just saying 10 it's, in some ways, better than what you are 11 proposing. 12 But my amendment is the best way 13 to go. Let's have a system where these 14 vacancies are filled decisively by a joint 15 session of the Legislature. Why? The compelling 16 argument for that is, when you have divided 17 government between the houses, you get a result 18 that way. You don't get month after month of 19 horse trading, jockeying, and indecision and 20 missed deadlines and vacuum in whatever office 21 you are talking about. You get a decisive 22 result, but it's only for the short-term because 23 that person only fills the office 2885 1 until the next primary and general election 2 cycle. Then the people speak and the people 3 decide. 4 So I say, in sum, to characterize 5 the difference between the amendment and the 6 Majority's proposal is, this amendment lets the 7 people decide, not the party bosses. The 8 Majority would enfranchise the political back 9 room. That's the practical effect of it. 10 Therefore, Mr. President, I urge the amendment. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Voice 12 vote on the amendment. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator 15 Gold. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Do you want to 17 speak, sir? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator 19 Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Go ahead, 21 Senator Gold. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator 23 Gold, you have the floor. 2886 1 SENATOR GOLD: It seems to me 2 that this is something that we have already been 3 through, Senator Connor. Do you remember, 4 Senator Connor, back in I think it was 1957 when 5 the Assembly was controlled by Democrats, 6 Senator Connor, and the Senate was controlled by 7 Democrats, and this issue came up with the 8 Attorney General, and the Republicans offered 9 these and the majority Democrats in both houses 10 voted this down and elected the Democrat Louie 11 Lefkowitz. Do you remember that? 12 Oh, I apologize. I apologize. 13 It wasn't Democrats. It was Republicans. Of 14 course. Now I remember. 15 Senator Skelos, I admire you. I 16 admire Senator Marino. But this is absurd. You 17 know it's absurd. When you had the dice in your 18 hand and you had control of both houses, there 19 weren't these amendments being offered. You 20 didn't give one care about what the people of 21 the state of New York thought. You couldn't 22 have cared less. Your party - 23 I won't yield right now. Your 2887 1 party stood up here. You met in your caucuses 2 and you elected Louie Lefkowitz. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator 4 Skelos, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 6 Is it correct that under rule 6, section 9 (c) 7 of the rules of the Senate that no 8 constitutional amendment may be amended when 9 advanced to third reading. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: That is 11 correct, Senator Skelos. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you very 13 much. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator 15 Gold. 16 SENATOR GOLD: In 1957, when a 17 fellow who I really do think is terrific, Louie 18 Lefkowitz, was elected, there was no screaming. 19 I mean let's put it where it's at. You know, 20 you had both houses, you had the Governor, and 21 you couldn't care what the people said. As a 22 matter of fact, I remember when I first came to 23 the Senate from my 18-month stint in the 2888 1 Assembly, and I started to read all of our 2 powers, and I said, my God, this is a wonderful, 3 we're like the United States Senate; we get to 4 rule on confirmations by the Governor just like 5 the U. S. Senate does with the President; that's 6 exciting. And then we got to the first 7 confirmation, and the thing went -- it was the 8 fastest thing you had ever seen. Nobody paid 9 any attention to anything. And I raised the 10 issue. I said, Gentlemen, ladies, why don't we 11 take this seriously? The constitution gives us 12 this power. But, of course, when I came here, 13 the Republicans controlled the Senate and a 14 fellow by the name of Nelson Rockefeller was the 15 Governor, and you weren't too concerned. 16 Then I guess a year or so went 17 by, and the people decided that it ought to be 18 -- Hugh Carey was the Governor. I remember 19 somebody on that side -- and I won't embarrass 20 the person -- came over, put their arm around my 21 shoulder and said, "Do you something, Manny, do 22 you know that idea you had about us really 23 taking seriously the confirmation process? 2889 1 We're going to do that." 2 And it's fascinating. Didn't 3 bother you who Republican governors sent up. 4 Now, we got Democratic governors, you are going 5 to put a microscope to it, and I think that's 6 right. By the way, I think that's right. 7 But let's call it what it is 8 today. There is a process. I have a statement 9 here from a man I admire, Senator Ralph J. 10 Marino. But I mean, come on, will you? I mean 11 this is a statement -- I assume you want the 12 press to read it. Is there anybody in the press 13 corps that doesn't know that the reason this 14 statement came out is because you can't win in a 15 joint session? Is there anybody here who 16 forgets so quickly that Warren Anmderson, I 17 believe it was, wanted to go to court over the 18 Regents because, when you put the two houses 19 together, all of a sudden the Majority in this 20 house felt that it had lost its dignity because 21 you felt you were going to lose the vote? The 22 one thing you can do is count. I admire that. 23 But that's all we're talking about here. 2890 1 If there is any degrading of the 2 system, what it is, it is the failure of the 3 Republican Party in the Assembly and the Senate 4 to just own up to the fact that you can't win 5 the vote. That's all. You can't do it. 6 There was an agreement to hold 7 these hearings. All of a sudden, I'm reading 8 here now that the Democrats have concluded their 9 hearings. Those were hearings that were agreed 10 upon by all four legislative leaders, and then 11 Assemblyman Rappleyea decided he wanted to pick 12 up his marbles and go home. So then Senator 13 Marino said, well, if Rappleyea isn't going to 14 be there, then it ought to be just the 15 Majority. This is chicken, whatever. This is 16 silly stuff. It really is. 17 We have to select a Comptroller. 18 I didn't tell Regan to leave. I didn't tell him 19 to leave. Obviously, you didn't tell him to 20 leave, but he is leaving. And we have to fill 21 the position, and the way we're going to do it 22 is very simple. It's the way that has been set 23 out by the constitution which your party never 2891 1 sought to amend. 2 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator 4 Daly, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR DALY: Senator Gold 6 yield? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator 8 Gold, do you yield to Senator Daly? 9 SENATOR GOLD: Be a pleasure, I 10 hope. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: He said 12 it would be a pleasure. 13 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 14 Will the Senator tell me, does he -- does he - 15 I should say is he talking about this particular 16 selection of a Comptroller because this bill 17 does not refer to that particular selection of a 18 Comptroller. It refers to a future selection of 19 a Comptroller. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator 21 Gold, do you care to respond to that question? 22 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. If you have 23 remember the question you could put it with the 2892 1 answer. I understand what you are doing, 2 Senator Daly. This is all part of a process to 3 try to convince the public that in some way that 4 will happen, perhaps next week or whatever, is 5 in some way devious, is in some way not 6 considering their opinions, et cetera, et 7 cetera. Senator Marino says in this statement 8 here that until there is a vote of the people 9 expressing their choice, et cetera. Well, is he 10 talking about this one, Senator Daly? I'll ask 11 you. There is no process for us to go to the 12 people. We have laws. And the interesting 13 thing is until a couple days ago, I didn't see 14 Senator Marino or any member of this house 15 clamoring to redo the process for the simple 16 reason that -- yes, Senator, do you want me to 17 yield? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator 19 Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: I had introduced 21 with Senator Nozzolio and with a number of my 22 other colleagues this or very equivalent 23 legislation. The -- approximately or within a 2893 1 couple days after Ned Regan's announced 2 resignation, I also sent the legislation to 3 Speaker Weprin, asking him to join us in the 4 process of changing the constitution. Not 5 necessarily did it have to be exactly the way I 6 had drafted the legislation but to join me in 7 changing the constitution, and he did not even 8 extend the courtesy of a reply. Perhaps now 9 with Senator Marino being the lead sponsor on 10 this, he will extend the courtesy of a reply 11 that we do amend the constitution for situations 12 that may arise in the future. 13 Now, we understand that this 14 concurrent resolution will not affect the 15 present selection of the Comptroller. We 16 understand that. I think the press understands 17 it. I think everybody understands it. All it's 18 doing is changing the constitution should this 19 situation occur in the future and allowing the 20 people to make determination whether they want 21 the constitution changed. That's what this 22 does. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 2894 1 yield to a question? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator 3 Skelos, that I believe was a point of 4 information. And now Senator Gold is asking if 5 you will yield to a question? 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Absolutely. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, 8 Senator. So, Senator, you are saying, and I 9 think rightfully so, since we all know that a 10 constitutional amendment has to pass two 11 separate legislatures, that this particular bill 12 we are on now has no application for this 13 process. Is that correct? 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Well, it 15 doesn't - 16 SENATOR GOLD: For this election 17 for Comptroller now. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: For this 19 election, nor does Senator Connor's amendment. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, for this 21 Comptroller election now. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Nor does Senator 23 Connor's amendment. 2895 1 SENATOR GOLD: Right. Will you 2 yield to another question? 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Sure. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Yes, he 5 will. 6 SENATOR GOLD: And as I 7 understand it from your comments earlier, the 8 process we're involved in now for the election 9 of a Comptroller is a simple process, which you 10 ask us to change for the future, but it's a 11 simple process whereby the two houses of the 12 Legislature, as one body, will select a 13 Comptroller. Is that correct? 14 SENATOR SKELOS: You are defining 15 it as simple. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, but that's 17 the process; correct? 18 SENATOR SKELOS: The process is 19 in the constitution. You are defining it as a 20 simple process. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Will you 22 tell me, is it more complicated than that, sir, 23 under existing law? 2896 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Pardon me? 2 SENATOR GOLD: Is it more 3 complicated than that under existing law? 4 SENATOR SKELOS: It's exactly 5 what you're saying. The two houses get together 6 and elect a -- 211 legislators will make their 7 preference known. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you very 9 much. To conclude my remarks, Mr. President. 10 I understand that the proposal in 11 front of us is for future elections, and I don't 12 have to go into the merits of the two choices, 13 because I think Senator Connor in his expertise 14 has explained very clearly why the amendment 15 that he offered is preferable. 16 But I will conclude my remarks in 17 the same vein I started them, Senator Skelos. 18 There isn't a doubt in my mind -- isn't a doubt 19 in my mind that while the ballgame was loaded 20 in your favor, or so you thought, there wasn't 21 the slightest concern on the Republican Party 22 for the wishes of the people or to get input 23 from the people. 2897 1 It is a new awakening. A new 2 awakening. A new math, and you understand the 3 problems you have with that math that all of a 4 sudden want you to change the process, and 5 everybody understands that. 6 I support the amendment. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 8 First of all - 9 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator 10 Skelos. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: In terms of 12 1957, I think John Marchi perhaps was the only 13 Senator here in this legislative body and I dare 14 say in the Assembly. 1957, I think at the age 15 of 9 the last thing I was thinking about was who 16 is going to be the Attorney General. I was 17 perhaps thinking about how my Little League 18 baseball team was going to do, that type of 19 thing. But I don't think many of us in this 20 room were deeply involved in the selection of a 21 successor Attorney General. 22 The point is we recognize that 23 there has to be a change in the constitution to 2898 1 give the people the right to vote. Now, in 2 Senator Connor's amendment, one thing I would 3 like to point out and I -- I dare -- I would 4 never compare my expertise in election law to 5 Senator Connor's. But in the amendment, you 6 mention that a person to fill such actual or 7 prospective vacancy for a term which shall begin 8 on the first day of the vacancy. Now, if a 9 person has passed away and the successor 10 Attorney General under your amendment is 11 selected 45 days, let's say, down the road, your 12 amendment -- and if the constitution were 13 amended -- would bind that appointee to whatever 14 actions occurred during that period of time 15 because his term of office would begin on the 16 date of the vacancy. 17 So I don't even know how you can 18 say somebody's term of office can begin before 19 they are even appointed to that office. That's 20 like saying if you come in in a special 21 election, you are going to go back 45 days and 22 your term of office, your pension benefits, your 23 health benefits, are all going to be 2899 1 retroactive. So I think that's a defect in the 2 drafting of the legislation. 3 I also believe that as I 4 mentioned, under the rules of the Senate, this 5 type of amendment cannot be offered, although 6 I'm not going to ask the president to so rule 7 because I think it deserves a real airing 8 today. But I know that when people -- Senator 9 Connor mentioned that the Senate races, people 10 need a voice up here; you should have special 11 elections. And I agree with him. But the 12 Comptroller of the state of New York under 13 current law is the trustee of a $56 billion 14 trust fund, and the retirees of this state, the 15 local municipalities of this state, deserve to 16 have the voice that they want through a 17 democratic process protecting that fund. 18 The same thing with the Attorney 19 General. He is or she is the chief law 20 enforcement officer of the state of New York, 21 and the people have the right to select that 22 person by vote. And I think sometimes we under 23 estimate the intelligence of the public by 2900 1 saying, "Who cares? They won't come out and 2 vote." Well, I think there are an awful lot of 3 retirees in this state that would come out and 4 vote if there is a vacancy in the office of the 5 Comptroller to make sure that their rights are 6 being protected. 7 In terms of signatures and 8 independent candidacies, that certainly can be 9 handled by changing the Election Law. And I 10 know certain questions that were raised will be 11 brought up by Senator Nozzolio in the next piece 12 of legislation that will be before the house. 13 And, you know, Senator Connor, nobody knows 14 better than you that if the people want to get 15 signatures -- look at what Mr. Perot did in this 16 state in such a short period of time. How many 17 signatures did he get, 100,000 signatures? How 18 many did he get, in what period of time? 19 SENATOR CONNOR: I will yield. 20 The number 93,189 filed comes to mind. I don't 21 know why. But the fact is he had a long period 22 of time, though, Senator. He had the five-week 23 period there. 2901 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Can we not 2 provide for independent candidacies? Can't we 3 change the Election Law? Once we give the 4 people the basic right to vote, can't we under 5 the Election Law then make the changes? 6 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator, the 7 problem is if the Governor were to call an 8 election on 30 day's notice, those independent 9 petitions would be due about ten days 10 thereafter. So as a practical matter to print 11 them and all, you would have about six days to 12 get them all over the state. I don't think that 13 practically can be done. It takes time to 14 deliver the petitions to people, to organize 15 petition carriers, and to get the petitions back 16 at some central place in this state. 17 So the real problem there is -- I 18 don't care, you would have to lower it to 50 19 signatures. Sure, if you did that, more than 20 one independent candidate would undoubtedly 21 run. But with the present kinds of requirements 22 of distribution between half of the 23 Congressional districts in this state, that you 2902 1 couldn't do in that period of time, Senator. 2 (Whereupon, Senator Spano was in 3 the chair. ) 4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 5 Daly. 6 SENATOR DALY: I have been asked 7 to withhold my remarks until the amendment is 8 defeated. I will speak on the main bill. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The 10 question is on the amendment. 11 Senator Present. 12 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 13 Before you call for the vote, I would like to 14 note that this amendment violates rule 6, 15 section 9 (c) of our rules of the house, and 16 we're not objecting to that, and there has been 17 no one objecting. Please call the roll on the 18 amendment. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: On the 20 amendment, all those in favor signify by saying 21 aye. 22 Senator Dollinger, do you wish to 23 be heard? 2903 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: May I speak 2 on the amendment, on Senator Connor's amendment? 3 Can I, Mr. President? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 5 Dollinger. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 7 President. I guess as a student of 8 constitutional law, I'm always a bit troubled 9 when we go about amending the constitution 10 simply because of loss of political power for a 11 particular part of government, and I think we're 12 in a dangerous territory when we change our 13 constitution based on the vagaries of changes in 14 political power and the distribution of 15 political power under a constitutional document. 16 And what I see happening here - 17 and I agree with both my colleagues, Senator 18 Connor and Senator Gold. What we see is a shift 19 in the political power created under the 20 constitution; that because the majority in this 21 house will not be in the majority in a joint 22 session to elect a new Comptroller, there is 23 suddenly a hue and cry that we ought to go back 2904 1 and change the underlying constitutional 2 document. 3 Well, one of the questions I 4 asked in the Judiciary Committee's deliberation 5 on this document was whether there was any dis 6 cussion in the 19609s when a constitutional con 7 vention was held in this state, a constitutional 8 convention that was created pursuant to a prior 9 constitution in which the issue of reshaping 10 this state in its form of government was dis 11 cussed, whether during that constitutional 12 convention there was a discussion and a consid 13 eration given to changing the power that is held 14 by the Legislature by joint session in appoint 15 ing vacancies to fill vacancies in either the 16 Comptroller or the Attorney General's office. I 17 thought it would be very instructive for this 18 body to look at the dispassionate deliberations 19 of that constitutional convention, when they 20 considered changing the whole structure of 21 government, to look at what they dealt with and 22 how they dealt with the problem of vacancies 23 occurring in the Attorney General and in the 2905 1 Comptroller's office. I thought that discussion 2 would be extremely helpful to us in this 3 process. 4 I haven't seen it yet. I had 5 hoped that we would have it available today. 6 I'm going to continue to try to look for it just 7 for enlightenment, but I had hoped that it would 8 provide us with some guidance; that that 9 discussion would tell us what the considerations 10 were, the debate about whether or not the 11 secrecy and the short time frames that are 12 presented in the majority proposal here, whether 13 they would have a real practical impact, as 14 Senator Connor predicts, on the ability of 15 someone to actually run for these offices or 16 whether we would in fact have -- and this is the 17 critical point I just want to touch on briefly. 18 When Senator Connor said it would 19 be just like the budget, it brought back to my 20 mind my message from three weeks ago, which is, 21 quite simply, it will be done in the smoke 22 filled rooms. It will be done in the rooms of a 23 Democratic convention or a Democratic conference 2906 1 or a Republican conference or any of the other 2 major parties. It will all be done by five 3 people sitting there blowing the smoke away. 4 There won't be any people involved in that. 5 They will be given access to the ballot, and 6 we'll have a hurry-up election that I think, as 7 Senator Connor practically predicts, will draw 8 less than ten percent. 9 That's the way to elect anybody, 10 we ought to scrap that whole process. But it 11 seems to me that we are making a significant - 12 in my judgment, a significant mistake when we 13 change our constitution because of shift in 14 political power. 15 Let's look at this issue in 16 broader detail. And if you do look at it in 17 broader detail, you will see that Senator 18 Connor's amendment which provides for an 19 election in November following the primary 20 process gives all the people the opportunity to 21 be heard just as they were heard in the election 22 of everyone in this chamber. They will get real 23 opportunity to have a candidate elected at a 2907 1 time when there will be a significant turnout. 2 I will close with one final 3 thought. Senator Connor said that the cost of a 4 special election -- if there is no other reason, 5 don't do it because of the cost. Our estimate 6 is that the cost of holding a general election 7 statewide is about $20 million. It will be $20 8 million that we would tack on in ten days to get 9 15 percent of the voters to turn out. 10 Let's do it in November. Let's 11 take the amendment. Do it when the people's 12 voice will be heard in abundance, and I think 13 that's the proper way to do it. The amendment 14 is the proper way to give the people a real say 15 in this process. Don't let it be done by 16 secrecy and surprise. 17 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 19 Daly. 20 SENATOR DALY: On the amendment. 21 I would like to speak on the amendment, Mr. 22 President. 23 And in answer to comments made by 2908 1 several of my colleagues on the other side of 2 the aisle, first of all, the last comment, that 3 this is a shift in political power, it seems to 4 me if you check history, the Democratic Party 5 has controlled the Governor's office in this 6 state for the last 20 years. They have also 7 controlled the Assembly for 20 years. 8 I don't see this as an immediate 9 shift, this proposal by Senator Marino and 10 Senator Skelos, to be a -- caused by a shift in 11 political power. That's a ridiculous 12 accusation. 13 Senator Gold said that this 14 proposal is absurd, that having the people vote 15 on such a proposal is absurd. You know, when 16 you look at the situation, literally, what we 17 have in New York State right now is a 18 disenfranchisement of a political party. 19 Literally. 20 Senator Connor says be practical, 21 be practical. Does anyone over there want to 22 tell me right now that there is any chance at 23 all that a Republican will be appointed to the 2909 1 Comptroller's office? So, literally, under the 2 present - 3 I will not yield at this time, 4 Mr. President. 5 Literally, practically, de facto, 6 under the present system. And get this. In a 7 state where the people have chosen to select a 8 Republican Comptroller, perhaps to 9 counterbalance a Democratic Governor, for the 10 last 12 years; that a Republican will not even 11 be considered for this office. 12 And what does this proposal deal 13 with? It does not even deal with this 14 situation. It doesn't deal with what's going 15 on. We know that's done. We know that there is 16 going to be a person selected by the Democratic 17 members of the Senate and the Assembly who will 18 be a Democrat. We know that. We accept it. 19 What's wrong? A new awakening. 20 If this is a new awakening, then we need more. 21 What's wrong with proposing to the people of 22 this state? And that's what this does. We gave 23 the people of the state a choice. We're saying 2910 1 we don't like the existing situation. In our 2 judgment, we feel it should be changed. Now, 3 the people will speak, not the Legislature. If 4 the people don't like this idea, they will turn 5 it down. 6 But we don't like the existing 7 situation. We think the constitution should be 8 changed, and we would be derelict in our duty if 9 we did not make the proposal. Call it a new 10 awakening. Maybe we should have done it twenty 11 years ago. I'm not going to argue that point. 12 I think perhaps we should have. But we're doing 13 it now, and it should be considered now on its 14 merits. 15 You know, you go off so a tangent 16 and try to hide the real purpose of this bill by 17 talking about it in the context of the existing 18 situation. We don't want to talk about it that 19 way because it doesn't fit. We know. We know 20 the Comptroller will be selected by the 21 Democratic majority in the Assembly combined 22 with the Democratic minority in Senate. That's 23 a given. That's gone. 2911 1 What we're saying is we don't 2 think it's right. We see a state where the 3 Comptroller, as I said before, is of one party 4 while the Governor is of the opposition party, 5 and this has existed for three straight 6 elections. Maybe the people are telling us 7 something. Maybe they are telling us we want 8 ballots. We want a member of one party in the 9 executive office and a member of the other party 10 in the Comptroller's office. Come to think of 11 it, that's the way it was probably back now 12 almost 30 years, when Comptroller Levitt was the 13 Comptroller, was a Democrat when Comptroller 14 Levitt was in office, and, of course, we had the 15 Republican Governors. 16 So let's not play games with 17 this. Let's look at it in the language of the 18 proposal. Basically, giving of the people of 19 the state a choice, a choice for a change in the 20 constitution, one that we feel they deserve, one 21 that we feel is needed. 22 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 2912 1 Connor. 2 SENATOR CONNOR: Yes, to close on 3 the amendment. First of all, I would like to 4 thank the Majority Leader and the Deputy 5 Majority Leader because I think the point of 6 this amendment isn't to score points but to have 7 a discussion, and I think it was helpful. 8 As I said initially, I recounted 9 how shocked my wife was that she doesn't have a 10 vote in this process. I agree that the people 11 voting is a better way, and I certainly agree 12 the constitution is the constitution, and we 13 have a present provision that we have to abide 14 by. And I certainly don't -- you know, I don't 15 really care how a political party or its 16 adherents come to see the light or not. History 17 is history. 18 But the fact is that I think my 19 idea is a better idea. I have no pride of 20 authorship, and I would urge the Majority 21 Leader, as we all acknowledge -- and I 22 understand the political drama to bring this out 23 now this week. But the fact is, to do a real 2913 1 constitutional amendment, we're talking about a 2 process that goes over the next three years at 3 least. And I would urge the Majority Leader to 4 take a look at this amendment if it doesn't pass 5 here as a better way. 6 Because I think the special 7 election idea which comes to mind right away, 8 "Oh, a special election is better," has the 9 pitfall of the party leaders really picking the 10 candidates. It would allow a handful of party 11 leaders to sit down and have no contest, to 12 horse trade. They do that in some places over 13 judgeships and what have you. Suddenly you 14 would have -- what good is a special election, I 15 ask you, if the only candidate on the ballot has 16 three or four party cross endorsements? That 17 could happen under this amendment. Then the hue 18 and cry would be a real hue and cry, and it 19 wouldn't just be involved with winners and 20 losers. And that's the possibility that could 21 happen with the majority's proposal as it's 22 written now. 23 Also, the interim selection 2914 1 basis, I understand why institutionally the 2 Senate wants to say, Look, we want to have our 3 own vote. Let the Assembly have their own 4 vote. But, institutionally, on that interim 5 basis if the house were divided under political 6 control, you would get no result, and win or 7 lose, a result in a democracy is very important 8 because, you know, government goes on. 9 I think my proposal of an 10 election at the next cycle for all the reasons I 11 have outlined and, as Senator Dollinger pointed 12 out, the dollar figure. Think about it, $20 13 million -- $20 million. I have seen special 14 elections for Assembly and for Senate that cost 15 the board of elections in the city of New York 16 -- for example, indeed I suspect with 3,000 17 voters in my own election, an Assembly District 18 special election costs about $100,000. That's 19 what it costs to run. You get 700 people to 20 vote. I mean is it really cost effective? Does 21 democracy compel that we hold elections where 22 the cost per voter is a couple thousand dollars 23 when we know that the state in its programs 2915 1 there's a drastic need for money? I mean think 2 about how many mouths you can feed. Think about 3 how many senior centers you can support, how 4 many meals can be provided, et cetera. How the 5 schools cry out for that money. I don't think 6 we can really justify holding a state election 7 costing a thousand dollars a vote or something. 8 That would be absurd. 9 And I remind you that $20 million 10 is not a cost to the state. It's a cost to 11 those localities. You go back and tell your 12 county board of elections they should have to 13 spend an unanticipated two or three thousand 14 dollars in moderate-sized counties. You go back 15 to Long Island and tell your board of elections, 16 Oh, gee, Nassau County, it's going to cost you a 17 couple million dollars to run this special 18 election, or Suffolk County. Tell the city of 19 New York, It's going to cost you $4 million or 20 $5 million; we're having a special election. 21 We're having a big party. This 22 proposal would have the state force the 23 localities to throw a big party, and nobody was 2916 1 going to attend. I just think my proposal is a 2 better way. It doesn't cost money. It lets the 3 people decide. It doesn't let the party bosses 4 have a stranglehold on who gets to be on the 5 ballot, and it's the most democratic. 6 But, again, I have no provide of 7 authorship. I understand today's political 8 drama, but I also hope the Majority is serious, 9 as is the Minority, in going forward, looking to 10 the future to change the constitutional 11 provisions. And I offer this idea as perhaps a 12 better way. If it doesn't pass today, I urge 13 you to think about it because there is plenty of 14 time to address this problem. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Question 16 is on the amendment. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Party vote. 18 SENATOR PRESENT: Party vote in 19 the negative. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 21 Secretary call the party line vote. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 23, nays 34, 2917 1 party vote. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The 3 amendment is defeated. 4 On the resolution. Secretary 5 will call the roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 8 would like to explain my vote. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 10 Skelos to explain his vote. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: I have enjoyed 12 the discussion that occurred today between 13 Senator Connor and myself and other members of 14 the Legislature because it does point to the 15 need of a constitutional amendment. 16 You know, there were certain 17 comments that were made about the cost of 18 holding the special election. Where Senator 19 Dollinger came up with the 20 million, I don't 20 know. We can discuss it afterward, especially 21 since Speaker Weprin indicated that it would 22 cost perhaps $10 million statewide which, even 23 that, we feel is quite a bit inflated. 2918 1 But I also believe it is an 2 elitist statement when you say something to the 3 effect of it's too much cost for people to 4 vote. We have thousands and thousands of 5 individuals who gave up their lives in the 6 Second World War and other wars to make sure 7 that we had the right to vote. And perhaps to 8 some that seems a bit corny, but I truly believe 9 that, and I think what's important today -- and 10 quite honestly, all my friends on the other side 11 of the aisle should be voting for this because 12 so often I hear them on the other side talking 13 about election reform and this reform and that. 14 And here we have a basic right to vote, and they 15 are voting against it. 16 Perhaps they should send a 17 message to Speaker Weprin that he should lay his 18 cards on the table and let us know if he 19 believes that the people in the future should 20 have the right to vote when a vacancy occurs in 21 the position of Attorney General or Comptroller 22 of this state and start serious discussions with 23 Senator Marino about reforming and changing the 2919 1 state constitution so that the people can vote 2 in the state of New York. 3 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 4 I rise to explain my vote. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 6 Stavisky to explain his vote. 7 SENATOR STAVISKY: I wish to make 8 it very clear that in voting against the measure 9 before us, I am not voting against the people's 10 right to participate. If we truly wish to have 11 the right of the people to participate, then by 12 all means let us provide for a fair system of 13 primary election in advance of a special 14 election. 15 There is a lot wrong with special 16 elections when party leaders by themselves 17 decide who should be the party designee. If you 18 really want to have public participation, then 19 give us something that guarantees the right of a 20 primary in each party, the right of independent 21 candidacy and then a special election or a 22 general election as the case might be. 23 Having explained my vote, I am 2920 1 not voting against public participation. I'm 2 voting against this closed door back-room form 3 of party politics in selecting a Comptroller and 4 an Attorney General. 5 I wish to be recorded in the 6 negative. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 8 Stavisky in the negative. 9 Senator Connor to explain his 10 vote. 11 SENATOR CONNOR: Yes, Mr. 12 President. Just to explain my vote. And I 13 don't want to get into the numbers. We can do 14 this any time. But let me give you one 15 example. It takes approximately 100,000 16 election inspectors, half from the Republican 17 Party, half from the Democratic Party, paid by 18 the localities, to run a statewide election. 19 They get somewhere between $65 and $89 for a 20 very long day from 5:30 in the morning until 21 9:30 or 10:00 o'clock at night. At that 22 pittance of a pay -- that pittance of a pay, 23 that works out to about $8 million right there. 2921 1 You haven't talked about printing ballot costs. 2 You haven't talked about putting machine 3 mechanics and so on, all the other things that 4 go into conducting an election. 5 So I suggest to you the figure of 6 $20 million is relatively accurate. And it's 7 not putting a price tag on voting, Senator 8 Skelos. It's merely talking about the most 9 efficient way to spend that $20 million to have 10 an election. All have to agree, the most 11 efficient way would be to spend that $20 million 12 on an election occasion where four or five mil 13 lion people will vote instead of 250- to 300,000 14 voters will vote. We're talking about spending 15 that $20 million in the best way to guarantee 16 the most people possible the right to vote. 17 And I think that what we're 18 talking about here -- it's not a dollars figure. 19 It's what's the best way to enfranchise the most 20 voters with that money. And therefore, I 21 certainly -- and in voting no on this, it's only 22 because I think I really believe there is a 23 better way, and there's a back-door trap in the 2922 1 Majority's proposal; and that is, the party 2 bosses will pick the candidates not the people. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 4 Connor in the negative. Announce the results. 5 THE SECRETARY: Those reported in 6 the negative on Calendar Number 498 are Senators 7 Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Galiber, Gold, 8 Leichter, Markowitz, Masiello, Mendez, 9 Montgomery, Ohrenstein, Onorato, Santiago, 10 Smith, Solomon, Stachowski, Stavisky. Ayes 40, 11 nays 17. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The 13 resolution is adopted. 14 Senator Santiago. 15 SENATOR SANTIAGO: Had I been in 16 the chamber yesterday, I would have voted no on 17 Calendar Numbers 452, 456 and 460. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The 19 record will so indicate. 20 Senator Present. 21 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 22 May we take up Calendar 5358, please. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 2923 1 Secretary will read Calendar 558. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 558, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 4596, 4 an act to amend the Public Officers Law and the 5 Election Law. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 7 Nozzolio. 8 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: On behalf of 9 Senator Marino, I would like to offer this 10 legislation and explain it for our 11 colleagues. 12 My colleagues, now that the 13 constitutional arguments have been joined, 14 raised, debated and put aside for another day, 15 it's time for us to address the issue at hand, 16 the selection of this Comptroller, this year, 17 this time. The arguments that we heard 18 discussed on the last bill and amendment deal 19 with the constitutional changes to choose the 20 Comptroller upon a vacancy, but we know those 21 constitutional changes can't occur for a number 22 of years. 23 What we are offering is to open 2924 1 up the process today, to open up the process for 2 the current selection of the next Comptroller. 3 Our bill amends the Public Officers Law and the 4 Election Law to include the people of New York 5 in the selection process. Our bill requires the 6 Governor to call for a non-binding referendum of 7 preference within ten days after there is an 8 announced vacancy. 9 Our bills, those offered this 10 afternoon, those offered earlier this week, 11 continue our effort to lift the veil of secrecy 12 that has surrounded this process. The high 13 stakes lobbying that we have seen behind closed 14 doors in choosing the next Comptroller has only 15 served to weaken our people's faith in 16 government. I think this debate today is a good 17 debate of these issues. However, I think 18 putting a price tag on the democratic process is 19 another way to weaken our people's faith in that 20 democratic process. 21 It is time we bring the selection 22 process for this Comptroller not the next 23 Comptroller -- the people have a right to vote 2925 1 on the selection of this Comptroller, as Mrs. 2 Connor would like to see; that I believe, as we 3 believe, that it's time that the people have 4 this right. 5 I was in first grade when Senator 6 Gold referenced the 1957 selection. Senator 7 Skelos and I at that point were not consulted on 8 how that process would reach the people in the 9 best possible way. We know this bill reaches 10 the people. It reaches the people directly. It 11 reaches the people not the party bosses as may 12 be suggested in the selection process tainted by 13 that selection, by that process. 14 This guarantees that the petition 15 process prevails and that those who seek the 16 office of Comptroller would be able to get on 17 the ballot in a non-binding referendum and allow 18 the selection of the Comptroller to take place 19 as that referendum process is governed by our 20 Election Law. 21 That Senator Daly eloquently 22 stated the need for independence in the 23 selection of a Comptroller. The people have 2926 1 demonstrated that need for independence in 2 their, I believe, not by accidental choice of 3 choosing a Comptroller of the other political 4 party as the Governor. That independence was an 5 independence that has become a deep tradition in 6 New York State. The reason that we need an 7 independent Comptroller to be an independent 8 watchdog of what happens both in the Governor's 9 dealings, in the legislators' dealings and in 10 the conduct of the fiscal affairs of local 11 government. We need an independent watchdog. 12 The people of this state have recognized the 13 need for an independent watchdog. 14 Unfortunately, what is happening 15 by this process, a process where the foxes 16 decide who the guardian of the chicken coop will 17 be, we have not a watchdog selected but a lap 18 dog selected, a lap dog that can be a puppet of 19 the Governor, controlled by a majority of the 20 legislators and, in effect, not that independent 21 voice that the people have established in a 22 longstanding tradition of New York. 23 Our bill recognizes this need to 2927 1 have the people of this state have an active 2 voice in the selection of the next Comptroller. 3 The constitutional oddities, for one reason or 4 another, need to be changed. And that debate 5 was crystalized over the last bill, but let's 6 get to brass tacks. Let's get to the selection 7 process today, and let's not hide behind the 8 veil of the constitution. 9 That is a process that, in 10 effect, would have the selection of the 11 Comptroller chosen by the people, the selection 12 of the Comptroller this time chosen by the 13 people. 14 And as such, Mr. President, I 15 advance the bill. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 17 Gold. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, I will yield 19 to Senator Connor. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 21 Connor. 22 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, 23 Senator. 2928 1 Mr. President, you know, there is 2 something missing in this newborn Republican 3 drive for reform and I thought, what is it? 4 What is it? The bills apply to Attorney 5 General. They apply to vacancies in the office 6 of Comptroller. And then I thought, aha! 7 Governor and Lieutenant Governor, when there is 8 a vacancy in the office of Lieutenant Governor. 9 And Governor Cuomo a number of years ago 10 proposed a constitutional amendment to deal with 11 that. He proposed that. What does the law say? 12 The Majority Leader acts as Lieutenant Governor 13 in the absence of Governor, he acts as 14 Governor. And should the vacancy occur in the 15 governorship, the Majority Leader of the Senate 16 becomes the Governor without a vote from the 17 people. Without a vote from the people. I 18 think these bills should go back to the drafting 19 boards. I think the majority in this house 20 forgot to include Lieutenant Governor and 21 Governor. I think that they should be included. 22 And I'm ashamed to say in my 23 amendment which was defeated and when I 2929 1 introduce it as a separate bill to amend the 2 constitution, I'm going to include those 3 offices. Governor Cuomo wanted to include 4 them. If you recall after Lieutenant Governor 5 DelBello resigned, Senator Anderson served ably 6 and well as the acting Lieutenant Governor, 7 acted as Governor, on occasions. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Will you yield? 9 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: The amendment 11 that you proposed before, did that include 12 Lieutenant Governor? 13 SENATOR CONNOR: That's why I 14 just confessed. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: You just thought 16 of it? 17 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator, I made 18 an error. I hastily prepared the amendment, and 19 I give you -- I bet Senator Marino didn't think 20 of it in his own amendment, in his own 21 constitutional amendment, and I'll bet he wants 22 to go back and amend that, and I won't say there 23 is -- everybody will understand. 2930 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 2 Nozzolio. 3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. 4 President. Will Senator Connor yield? 5 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly, Mr. 6 President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 8 Connor yields. 9 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator 10 Connor, are you trying to tell us something? Do 11 you know some inside information about an 12 imminent resignation of maybe the Governor or 13 Lieutenant Governor? 14 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly not. 15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Is there a 16 scoop that you would like to share with us? 17 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly not, 18 Mr. President. But even our Governor is 19 mortal. Everybody is, on a serious note, and 20 vacancies do occur. I don't dispute that. 21 The point is, as we all pointed 22 out, we are not dealing with current events. We 23 are planning for the future of the state in 2931 1 light of current events and history, the history 2 of Attorney General Lefkowitz' selection, the 3 history of the vacancy in the office of 4 Comptroller, and I allude to the past not so 5 long ago vacancy in the office of Lieutenant 6 Governor. These things happen for a variety of 7 reasons. 8 And what I'm saying, Mr. 9 President, is while we're dealing with it let's 10 deal with it all. Let's let the people decide 11 when there is a vacancy in the office of 12 Lieutenant Governor. Let the people decide who 13 ought to be the new Lieutenant Governor. Let's 14 let the people decide should multiple vacancies 15 in the office of Governor and Lieutenant 16 Governor occur at the same time. Let the people 17 decide who the new Governor is. Why should 18 this body pick a governor? If together with our 19 colleagues, the 150 colleagues in the Assembly, 20 the majority says we shouldn't pick a 21 Comptroller or Attorney General, I submit to you 22 that the 61 Senators here should never be in the 23 position of picking a Governor or a Lieutenant 2932 1 Governor. Let the people decide. And I realize 2 it slipped all of our minds, and I'm sure the 3 majority will seek proposals very soon from them 4 to deal with this anomaly, this inconsistency in 5 their approach. 6 Now to Senator Nozzolio's bill in 7 particular. Senator Nozzolio said that his bill 8 wouldn't involve the party bosses. The fact of 9 the matter is - 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 11 Skelos. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 13 Just to clarify. Are you calling for the 14 special election of a Governor as against the 15 Lieutenant Governor ascending to that position? 16 SENATOR CONNOR: No. What I'm 17 saying is in the case of a vacancy of a 18 Lieutenant Governorship or should -- hey, we all 19 work in the same building. People fly in 20 airplanes. What I'm saying is should there be a 21 simultaneous vacancy in the offices of 22 Lieutenant Governor and Governor, I think the 23 people ought to elect a new Governor and 2933 1 Lieutenant Governor rather than have legislative 2 leaders ascend to these powers, and that's no 3 reflection on any -- as I say, certainly Senator 4 Anderson and certainly the Majority Leader or 5 the Speaker, you know, obviously are leaders of 6 our state, but they are not elected by the 7 people to those offices, and I don't think the 8 people of one particular Assembly District or 9 Senate District ought to, in effect, be electing 10 the Governor or Lieutenant Governor. 11 But as to Senator Nozzolio's 12 bill, he said he took the party bosses out. 13 Well, Mr. President, his preference vote -- his 14 bill says that nominations of candidates for the 15 referendum of preference shall be made in 16 accordance with the provisions of the Election 17 Law that applied to special election, and I'm 18 telling you those provisions say that when there 19 is a special election the party rules pick the 20 candidates -- the party rules, the party bosses. 21 Sure, the Republican Party will 22 have a state convention. The Democratic Party 23 will have a state convention. And all those 2934 1 well-known state committee members, household 2 words, will meet and will pick household names, 3 will pick the major party candidates. I suggest 4 that if you look at the rules, and I have looked 5 at them, of some -- of the other three parties, 6 you will find their conventions are much 7 smaller, made up of a handful of executive 8 members, and they will pick candidates, too, or 9 maybe they will trade to give their line to 10 other candidates, but the bosses will decide who 11 is on the ballot under Senator Nozzolio's 12 provision. 13 Again, an independent will have 14 to struggle in a short time period to get 15 sufficient signatures to get on the ballot. And 16 dissonant voices, voices in the Republican Party 17 or the Democratic Party that don't meet the 18 approbation of the party bosses will be frozen 19 out, frozen out of the process. 20 Now, this is the first time I 21 have seen the majority ever come out with a 22 preference for the voters, and I think I should 23 revive a proposal that I sponsored at the 2935 1 suggestion of Governor Cuomo a number of years 2 ago, in a limited initiative proposal that said 3 when the Legislature refuses to act on voting on 4 important pieces of legislation -- not votes it 5 down -- let's say assault weapons or something 6 -- refuses to bring it to the floor to vote it 7 down. Hey, if you don't want it, vote it down. 8 But refuses to let something come to the floor 9 for a debate and a vote, that upon the petition 10 of a large number of New York voters, it will go 11 on the ballot. It will be initiative. The 12 Legislature will have to vote on it. Not pass 13 it. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 15 Nozzolio. 16 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. 17 President. Will Senator Connor yield? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 19 Connor yields. 20 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly, Mr. 21 President. 22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 23 Senator Connor. Senator Connor, you are very 2936 1 skilled in knowledge of election law, and that I 2 would like to beg on that expertise to ask you 3 this question about the number of signatures 4 required for statewide candidate in the last 5 presidential cycle. That I know you - 6 SENATOR CONNOR: We lowered it, 7 Senator. We lowered it to 10,000 from 20,000. 8 But it still remains -- actually, it's 50 from 9 each Congressional - 10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: So it was 11 20,000 lowered to 10,000 during a contracted 12 time period. Do you recall what that time 13 period was? 14 SENATOR CONNOR: The petitioning 15 period for president was, my recollection, July 16 -- the date in July that Bill Clinton was 17 nominated by the Democratic Convention. I think 18 that was in the 20s, 20-something of July. And 19 the last day to file petitions my recollection 20 is was August 27. So that there was a four-week 21 petition period. 22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'm informed 23 that the party petition process - 2937 1 SENATOR CONNOR: Oh, I thought 2 you meant independent. I'm talking independent. 3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I was talking 4 party petition process. 5 SENATOR CONNOR: Well, party 6 petition process was more truncated, and the 7 numbers of requirements were cut in half. 8 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'm informed, 9 Senator, that the party petition process was a 10 statewide 18-day period. Is that what you 11 recollect? 12 SENATOR CONNOR: That's correct, 13 Senator. I'd also point out that no one got on 14 the ballot that way. The party conventions put 15 them all on the ballot. No one got on the 16 ballot last year statewide -- Mr. Sharpton was 17 put on by the state convention, Elizabeth 18 Holtzman was put on by the state convention as 19 was former Congresswoman Ferraro and Attorney 20 General Abrams. So nobody had to use it. Thank 21 God, in that truncated period, no one had to use 22 it. 23 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, if 2938 1 you will continue to yield. Then the only 2 candidate that had to use the statewide petition 3 process to get on the ballot as a presidential 4 candidate was Ross Perot, is that correct? 5 SENATOR CONNOR: That's not 6 correct. There were other independent 7 presidential candidates. There was a New 8 Alliance Party candidate. My recollection is 9 there were three other independent candidates. 10 But that petitioning period was not truncated. 11 The number of signatures were cut; but if it was 12 truncated, it was by a number of days. They 13 still had at least a four and a half-week to 14 five-week time period to get on the ballot. 15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: But they ended 16 up -- did each of those candidates that you 17 mentioned, each of them got on the ballot? 18 SENATOR CONNOR: Some of the 19 other people we never heard of were challenging 20 each others' petition. And to tell you the 21 truth, Senator, I don't know. I think one was 22 successful in knocking somebody else off. 23 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, my 2939 1 point in rising was to -- in reaction to your 2 comments about the party bosses having exclusive 3 control over who was going to be on this 4 non-binding referendum. That out bill has a 5 5,000 signature requirement, so that anyone who 6 does not receive the designations from their 7 respective parties then can circulate petitions 8 and get -- upon 5,000 signatures qualify for the 9 ballot over a 10-day period. Now, I guess what 10 I'm trying to - 11 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator, I will 12 concede that that can be done, but you still 13 maintain the requirements of distribution among 14 Congressional candidates which is another and 15 different obstacle, and I -- it can be done, but 16 that makes it more difficult. If you just say a 17 straight 5,000, I say that's a snap. 18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: But 50 19 signatures for half the Congressional districts, 20 how difficult is that in all practicality? 21 SENATOR CONNOR: Well, you can 22 theoretically comply with it from Westchester to 23 Long Island, theoretically, but that's just more 2940 1 difficult because it's harder in some 2 Congressional districts than others. 3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Our point, 4 Senator, it's a point you raise, and I think 5 it's a critical one in this process, that we're 6 not trying to make it so onerous that no one 7 else can get on the ballot, and I guess you 8 conceded that point. 9 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator, I will 10 concede it's better than the present law as to 11 independents. But let me point out that the 12 party candidates would still be selected without 13 benefit of primary by the party bosses. Should 14 they want to contest that, they would have to 15 run independent, break with their party, form a 16 new independent body or party, and run that 17 way. And secondly, that the party nominations 18 still -- you know, you don't have primary in 19 here. You don't have petitions. You couldn't 20 petition. 21 For example, under the present 22 law when you go to a party convention, state 23 convention, if you get 25 percent of the vote on 2941 1 any ballot you are on the primary ballot. Under 2 this provision, you could go to the party 3 convention, get 49 percent of the vote, the 4 other guy gets 51 percent, the other person is 5 the candidate of the party, and you are out 6 because you don't have any provision for a 7 primary in here, Senator. There is no primary 8 under your bill. 9 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. 10 President. Will Senator continue to yield? 11 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly, 12 Senator. 13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: But, Senator, 14 aren't you begging the question here? We're 15 talking about not a regular election; we're 16 talking about, by its very nature, a special 17 election and an election that doesn't take into 18 consideration the political calendar because 19 it's urgent. It needs to have a vacancy 20 filled. It's not something where we have a 21 normal process. It's an abnormal process. And 22 what we're trying to do is bring people into 23 that process. 2942 1 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator, on the 2 bill. I think that in copying the special 3 election time frame and procedure, you still end 4 up with the only candidates the people get to 5 have an effective say, absent a write-in or an 6 independent campaign, are the major party 7 candidates picked by the party bosses. 8 Now, Senator Daly said before, 9 "Oh, there's no Republicans in this process." 10 Nobody ran. Nobody stepped forward and said, "I 11 have better ideas than these other people. 12 Despite my party label, I'm putting them 13 forth." No one did that. 14 Now, I'm not suggesting it would 15 or would not have mattered. That's the 16 democratic system, the contention between ideas, 17 the debate, the conflict between people of 18 different political philosophies. That's what 19 it's all about. 20 Nobody chose to take on that 21 battle even if it looked like a loser. Nobody 22 wanted to make the case for the Republican Party 23 in this raise, and that's unfortunate. 2943 1 And I know how your party feels. 2 You are going to miss Ned Regan, staunch 3 independent Republican Party loyalist that he 4 was. And I understand those frustrations. 5 But the fact of the matter is 6 none of these bills -- I think the partisan 7 overtures are shown by the fact that none of 8 them include Lieutenant Governor or Governor 9 vacancies. Why not? 10 And I have to tell you, a 11 preference vote, can you really imagine under 12 this bill, the candidates? Okay. The party 13 bosses select a Democrat, and the party bosses 14 select a Republican. Maybe there's a couple 15 other people running. Statewide preference 16 vote, 30- to 40-day campaign, got to cost $2 17 million. Got to cost a major candidate $2 18 million to go on the media, if not more, and 19 make their case. 20 They are going to do it in a 21 beauty contest that's not binding? I can't 22 believe any serious candidate would do that, go 23 into a non-binding beauty contest, spend all 2944 1 that money, make their case, win whatever it is 2 they win, and then not get selected by the 3 Legislature. I find that difficult to believe. 4 And I don't want to go back home to Mrs. Connor 5 tonight and say, "Oh, you are going to get to 6 vote; but if I don't like the outcome, I can 7 ignore it." 8 How are you going to tell the 9 voters that? Oh, they can do anything they want 10 anyway. And you think you are going to get a 11 turnout in that election? You think you are 12 going to get a voter turnout in that election? 13 Come on, folks, come out and tell us what's on 14 your mind, but we don't have to follow it. 15 Unfortunately, the voters in this 16 state are all too often, whether you are dealing 17 with assault weapons or civil rights for certain 18 groups or a variety of anti-bias violence, a 19 variety of issues. The voters of this state are 20 inured to faith in the Legislature. All too 21 often, they have spoken in a variety of ways, if 22 you read the polls. They don't even get a vote 23 here. So now they are going to believe that, 2945 1 aha! we are listening. 2 I agree this bill gives them a 3 voice, but it doesn't make anybody listen. It 4 allows the voters a shot in the void, but we 5 don't have to follow it. And then what's it 6 say? We're going to come back and have 7 concurrent resolutions. Oh, the two houses have 8 to agree again. I see. They will have to 9 agree. But you will say, "Come on, the two 10 houses aren't going to ignore the voice of the 11 people." 12 Well, I suggest to you that when 13 the winner got 4 percent of the registered 14 voters in this state and the loser 3-1/2 percent 15 of the registered voters in the state because 16 only 7 or 8 percent turned out in this 17 non-binding preference that cost the state $20 18 million to run, I suggest to you, Mr. President, 19 we will be back to another budget process. The 20 Speaker and the Majority Leader meeting and 21 battling over what's going on. "Gee, is that 22 really a mandate? The guy got 3 percent of the 23 vote, and we're supposed to vote for him?" 2946 1 So I think that this -- I mean I 2 understand the political impetus behind this. I 3 just don't think it's practical. I think we 4 ought to dig in. What is it, effective 5 immediately? Oh, stop the process and we'll have 6 a preference vote. Why don't you just 7 commission a Gallup poll? I mean I don't 8 understand how this is legitimate. 9 And the fact of the matter is, 10 Mr. President, it's not going to happen. I 11 think that what we ought to do in a non-partisan 12 spirit, a bipartisan spirit in this Capitol, is 13 get together and, between Senator Marino's 14 constitutional proposal, the one I have 15 suggested, work out something that deals with 16 the problems, the practicalities, and insures in 17 the future the voters will have a real voice, a 18 determinative voice on vacancies with Attorney 19 General, Comptroller, and on vacancies in 20 Lieutenant Governor or simultaneous Governor and 21 Lieutenant Governor vacancies. I think we ought 22 to address all four statewide offices that way. 23 Thank you, Mr. President. 2947 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 2 Daly. 3 SENATOR DALY: In listening to 4 Senator Connor, I guess I can best sum up what I 5 understand of his comments that the people 6 should be deprived of the right to vote because 7 they choose not to vote. I don't like that. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 9 Dollinger. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 11 President. I guess I'm amazed at all of this 12 idea of a non-binding preference. Senator Daly 13 just said, "deprived of the right to vote." As 14 I understand this proposal this is a whole new 15 right to vote. This is a right to vote for 16 something that doesn't mean anything. 17 This is the cruelest hoax you can 18 ask the voters of this state to be asked, which 19 is, we want your vote for Mike Nozzolio to be 20 the next Comptroller, but you know what? It 21 doesn't count. 22 I'd suggest to Senator Nozzolio 23 that Senator Connor's point about turnouts in 2948 1 special elections, "Go to the voters and tell 2 them that they've got ten days; they've got a 3 special election; the preferences all going to 4 be lined up by the party bosses, and, oh, by the 5 way, your vote doesn't count," I will put a 6 package of White hot dogs from Rochester, New 7 York, on the fact that you are not going to get 8 15 percent of the people to vote in that 9 referendum, in a non-binding referendum. 10 This bill creates the most 11 expensive poll in the history of New York State, 12 a non-binding poll that's going to cost $20 13 million that will have no effect on the final 14 vote. 15 The last thing I can't believe, 16 Mr. President, is I'm familiar with a nonbinding 17 special referendum. In fact, my recollection is 18 that a country with no history of democracy just 19 embarked on a non-binding referendum. It's 20 called Russia. People who have no experience 21 with democracy, don't have a 200-year tradition 22 of democracy, just had a non-binding referendum. 23 They're trying to go to us - 2949 1 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. 2 President. Will Senator Dollinger yield? 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: As soon as I 4 finish this thought, Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 6 refuses to yield at this time. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Here's the 8 Soviet Union marching down the road to 9 democracy, trying to follow us down the path of 10 democracy, to give their voters the right for 11 meaningful votes, and all of a sudden this 12 proposal says, "Oh-oh, we're going to borrow the 13 Soviet model, have a non-binding referendum, 14 where your vote doesn't mean anything but we 15 want you to come out and vote." 16 I can't believe that we would 17 stand the concept of voting on its head by 18 telling, cruelly and deceptively, the voters of 19 this state that, "Guess what? We want you to 20 vote, but it doesn't mean anything." The last 21 thing we need is Russian democracy in New York 22 State. 23 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. 2950 1 President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 3 Nozzolio. 4 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Couldn't quite 5 tell. Has Senator Dollinger finished his 6 thought yet? 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I have, Mr. 8 President. I'll be glad to yield. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 10 Dollinger yields. 11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 12 President. Thank you, Senator. 13 Senator, are you saying that if 14 there was a referendum statewide on the 15 selection of a new Comptroller and that there 16 became a candidate who was selected in a 17 non-binding referendum that you would ignore the 18 wishes of those who voted in this referendum and 19 vote contrary to their wishes? 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'd simply 21 point out, Mr. President, that depending on how 22 the voters voted in my district, if they were a 23 vote apart, the 340 people that voted in the 2951 1 election, I could sit down and say, "Gee, only 2 30 people out of the 300,000 that I represent 3 actually voted. I have the ability to vote as I 4 think the majority of my constituents would." 5 Which, frankly, Mr. President, is the way I 6 think that I'm hopefully casting every ballot in 7 this chamber. Because I don't ask them for a 8 non-binding preference on every issue that we 9 have come up. I haven't asked them for a 10 referendum on this. 11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, how 12 can you assume that only 30 people consider this 13 issue of a trustee of $56 billion of pension 14 fund, that how can you assume that those people 15 in your district or across the state are not 16 interested in this issue? Maybe you are not 17 interested in this issue, Senator, but I think 18 that many people across the state are interested 19 in who the trustee of their pension funds is to 20 be. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 22 President. In response to Senator Nozzolio's 23 question, it seems to me -- seems to me that if 2952 1 15 percent of the people vote in that election, 2 any member of this chamber could sit down and 3 say, "What do the other 85 percent of the people 4 in my district want me to do?" 5 That's what we all do in this 6 process. We try to figure out how as 7 representatives of people, the people in our 8 district would like to see us cast ballots. So 9 if 15 percent, which is my guess of how many 10 people would show up in a totally revolutionary 11 new form of balloting in this state called the 12 non-binding referendum, which the bottom line is 13 your vote doesn't really mean anything, I would 14 be in the same situation. I would say, "What of 15 the other 85 percent who didn't vote, how would 16 they want me to vote?" 17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Would Senator 18 Dollinger continue to yield? 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I might say 20 -- again, Mr. President, just let me finish the 21 thought. I might say, "Gee, 7 percent of the 22 people in my district voted for a Democrat and 23 6.9 percent voted for a Republican, but that's 2953 1 only 13 percent of the total people I 2 represent. I'm frankly in the same decision 3 making posture that I would be on any other 4 issue in front of this chamber. So I don't 5 think it changes my calculations, Mr. 6 President. I would listen to the people, try to 7 figure out what their will is. 8 But this is no way to do it, in a 9 low-voter-turnout, non-binding referendum that 10 we're importing from some place else. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 12 Present. 13 SENATOR PRESENT: May I interrupt 14 this discussion on this bill, ask that it be 15 laid aside just for a short moment. Call up 16 Calendar 485, read the last section and take a 17 roll call. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay this 19 bill aside. Secretary will read Calendar 485. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 485, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 4597, 22 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law and 23 the Transportation Law. 2954 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 2 last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 SENATOR PRESENT: Call Senator 6 Trunzo. 7 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes. 8 SENATOR PRESENT: Senator Lack. 9 SENATOR LACK: Aye. 10 SENATOR PRESENT: Senator 11 Johnson. 12 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye. 13 SENATOR PRESENT: And Senator 14 LaValle. 15 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye. 16 SENATOR GOLD: And Senator 17 Hoffmann. 18 SENATOR PRESENT: And Senator 19 Hoffmann. 20 SENATOR HOFFMANN: No. 21 SENATOR PRESENT: And Senator 22 Libous. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 2955 1 Libous. 2 SENATOR LIBOUS: No. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 4 Leichter. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: No. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 7 Solomon. 8 SENATOR SOLOMON: No. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Just 10 slow it down a second and let the Secretary 11 catch up. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stavisky. 13 SENATOR STAVISKY: No. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nolan. 15 SENATOR NOLAN: No. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Markowitz. Oh. 18 (There was no response. ) 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Withdraw 20 the bill. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Do you have 22 Senator Jones? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: No, 2956 1 she's going to stay. Okay. Back to Calendar 2 558. 3 Excuse me, Senator Present. Can 4 we have some order in the chamber, please. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 6 President. 7 SENATOR PRESENT: Senator 8 Leichter. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 10 Leichter. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: I thought the 12 clerk had called my name, and I voted "No" on 13 Senator Larkin's bill. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Thank 16 you. We have that, Senator Leichter. 17 We have withdrawn 485. We're 18 back on Calendar 558. Senator Dollinger has 19 completed his comments and next on the list is 20 Senator Leichter. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 22 President. I first want to thank Senator 23 Nozzoli -- Nozzolio, I'm sorry -- because he 2957 1 proved a proposition that he stated earlier. He 2 acknowledged Senator Connor's wisdom and skill 3 in this area. And then by your questions and by 4 your answers, you established that proposition, 5 Senator, and I thank you for that. 6 But I want to disassociate myself 7 from one thing that Senator Connor said. He 8 said, you know, the Governor is mortal, and I 9 think, you know, that could lead to the 10 dangerous inference that the doctrine of 11 gubernatorial infallibility no longer applies, 12 and I wouldn't want to annoy any occupant of the 13 second floor even though he is known for his 14 good even temper. 15 But, in all seriousness, this is 16 the sort of debate that we love, and everybody 17 else yawns and laughs. Because it's pretty 18 clear, you know, the games that everybody is 19 playing, and so on. So let me join the fun. 20 But the one thing I get from this 21 which I enjoy is this suddenly new-found 22 populism by my friends of the Majority where, 23 "Let the public know; let the public be heard; 2958 1 let the public be involved." You know, and 2 that's what we on this side of the aisle have 3 been saying when it comes to the legislative 4 budget. I had tears in my eyes when I heard 5 Senator Skelos talk about the people who went 6 off to war who gave their lives to their 7 country, and they came back and now, as Senator 8 Skelos said, "You don't want to let them vote." 9 Well, Senator, how about letting those same 10 veterans, those same people who fought for 11 democratic ideals, know how their money is being 12 spent? 13 So I love the idea of populism. 14 I love the idea of letting the public be 15 involved and known and be heard and so on, and I 16 just hope that new found populism that we see, 17 which was obviously prompted by a sudden 18 political reality, would also carry over to some 19 other areas where I think the public ought to be 20 involved and the public ought to be heard. 21 Having said that, I think that - 22 as I pointed out, I think Senator Connor made 23 eminent good sense. I hope, though, out of this 2959 1 discussion would come changes in the 2 constitution. Because we all agree that this is 3 not a good process for choosing a Comptroller or 4 choosing an Attorney General. We need a process 5 also for choosing a Lieutenant Governor should 6 the Lieutenant Governor leave office before the 7 end of his term, and I think we can put together 8 a fair, sensible system. 9 Having said this, let the fun 10 continue. Thank you. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 12 Solomon. 13 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes, thank you, 14 Mr. President. Will Senator Nozzolio yield, 15 please? 16 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly. 17 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes, Senator, 18 I'm sure you've done a lot of research -- since 19 the last time we had a vacancy was about 35 20 years ago -- on this legislation. Can you tell 21 me what other states in this country have 22 non-binding referendum on any other issues? 23 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Senator, 2960 1 I would be glad to tell you that we as a nation 2 have been electing a president of the United 3 States for now about 200-plus years in 4 establishing what we know as the electoral 5 college and the electoral votes; that I 6 certainly will be sure never to elect Senator 7 Dollinger a member of that college because we've 8 had a tradition in this country of the electors 9 being selected not the direct election of the 10 President of the United States. 11 We stopped, Senator, at that 12 review. We believed that if it was good enough 13 to select a President of the United States 14 through this process that it was also good 15 enough to select a Comptroller, as well. 16 SENATOR SOLOMON: Okay. Senator, 17 will you yield for another question? 18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly, 19 Senator. 20 SENATOR SOLOMON: But we do elect 21 electors that elect a President of the United 22 States, do we not? Do we elect electors to elect 23 the President of the United States? 2961 1 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes. 2 SENATOR SOLOMON: I see. And 3 Senator, that's in the federal constitution, 4 correct? 5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Senator. 6 But my point is - 7 SENATOR SOLOMON: I see. 8 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: -- and I'm not 9 trying to be glib. 10 SENATOR SOLOMON: I see. 11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes. Yes. 12 The answer is yes. We also, though -- my point, 13 Senator Solomon, was that we are choosing a 14 non-binding referendum process. The electors 15 are not bound by our federal constitution to 16 follow the popular vote chosen in the 17 presidential election. 18 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, just 19 one more question on elector. But before I get 20 back to the electors, let me ask you a 21 question. Is there any other state that has a 22 non-binding referendum on any other usual issue 23 in the United States that you are aware of? 2962 1 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, I 2 have not done the research to give you an 3 adequate answer to that question. 4 SENATOR SOLOMON: Okay. Senator, 5 if you will yield again. Do you know of any 6 other countries that have non-binding elections? 7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I stopped with 8 the United States of America, Senator, in my 9 research. 10 SENATOR SOLOMON: Okay. All 11 right. Senator, just one other question. Are 12 you aware of whether or not the electors that 13 are elected in the national election in this 14 state sign a document pledging their allegiance 15 to specific candidates to vote for those 16 candidates? 17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: No, Senator, 18 I'm not familiar with such a provision. 19 SENATOR SOLOMON: On the bill. 20 Thank you, Senator. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 22 Solomon on the bill. 23 SENATOR SOLOMON: I'm glad there 2963 1 was so much research done on this legislation by 2 the Majority. In fact, Senator, if you had read 3 the newspaper, Russia which recently entered 4 democracy or alleged democracy had non-binding 5 referendums last week. It was on the front page 6 of the New York Times this week and last week. 7 And I dare say that I don't 8 believe there is a jurisdiction within this 9 country that has a non-binding referendum. And 10 if you would go back and look at the way the 11 presidents are elected, they are not elected by 12 non-binding referendum. They have electors who 13 elect the President of the United States. And 14 basically, what happens is, if I'm correct, 15 those electors make a pledge to support that 16 candidate. 17 And what I'm saying here is we 18 have a process, I don't know where you really 19 picked this out of the air, but, yes, nonbinding 20 referenda happened to actually have an existence 21 in some foreign countries. There is no 22 jurisdiction in this country that has -- no 23 locality and no state has that procedure. And I 2964 1 really think you just picked it out of the air. 2 Thank you. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 4 Volker. 5 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President. 6 I just want to say very quickly I'll tell you 7 one of the places where this idea came from. It 8 came from the Governor of this state. And I'll 9 tell you how. Governor Cuomo had been urging us 10 for years to do a non-binding referendum on the 11 death penalty. It just dawned on me when I was 12 listening to what you said here. 13 You know, we really, as I under 14 stand it, could put a non-binding referendum on 15 the ballot. We don't need a constitutional 16 amendment to do that, and I believe some states 17 have done it, have done it in the past for 18 various reasons. 19 Frankly, I rejected the idea when 20 it was suggested to me by Governor Cuomo and 21 some of his people because my thought at the 22 time was that on an issue, a political issue or 23 an issue such as this where it was pretty clear 2965 1 where the people stood, the issue of having a 2 campaign across the state discussing an issue 3 that was discussed in this Legislature and that 4 has been debated over the years and one which, 5 by the way, I was certain I could win but which 6 he realized that the Governor who is a great 7 debater and who had the ability to command 8 television and radio and media way above 9 anything that I could do or anything of us in 10 this Legislature, because of course what he says 11 is believed by the media far more than any of 12 us. I think there is one difference in this and 13 that is that the issue of a Comptroller and the 14 issue of who should be a Comptroller is a whole 15 different kind of issue. 16 I would be the first to admit to 17 you that I have some question about this sort of 18 thing, but I would say to you this, that the 19 process -- I'm told that the only time -- I'm 20 not completely sure about this. I'm told the 21 only time that this process was ever run to its 22 complete zenith -- that is, in the Lefkowitz 23 case, as I understand, there was eventually some 2966 1 sort of an agreement and so forth. But the only 2 time was Millard Fillmore, who was from Buffalo, 3 and it was a little before anybody's father or 4 grandfather's time in this house. 5 I would think that one of the 6 things that my good friend Ned Regan has done 7 for us is to make us take a look at some of 8 these provisions in the state constitution. And 9 we don't need a constitutional convention and 10 all sorts of other things to deal with these 11 kinds of issues, certainly not an issue that 12 hasn't been an issue for 100 and some years or 13 whatever. 14 But I think that, you know, 15 Senator, I suppose that you can castigate the 16 idea of a non-binding referendum, but as I point 17 out, a lot of other people of suggested it for 18 various reasons. And since this issue has come 19 to the forefront now, the issue of how we would 20 appoint or elect a Comptroller, I think it's 21 certainly something that we should look into and 22 certainly something worthwhile to debate. 23 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President. 2967 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 2 Connor. 3 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President, 4 just one thing. You know, I would remind 5 Senator Nozzolio that after the electoral 6 college is elected, you know they don't all meet 7 and say, "Well, Bill Clinton won the popular 8 vote; we're all voting for Bill Clinton." 9 That's not what they do. 10 The Republican electors come in 11 and say, "Even though Bill Clinton was the 12 preference of a majority of Americans, we're 13 voting for George Bush," and of course the 14 Democratic electors come in and say, you know, 15 "We're voting for Clinton." They have the cover 16 of saying he is the choice of the American 17 people, and then he gets more votes, and nobody 18 says to the Republican electors, "You did 19 wrong. You weren't supposed to -- the people 20 wanted Bill Clinton." It's not a non-binding 21 preference. It's not an apt analogy. 22 But the apt analogy, Mr. 23 President, is that the electors go in and 2968 1 generally, almost universally, vote for the 2 person that won their state. And I suggest to 3 you if we had this preference, members would 4 come in subsequent to it and vote for the person 5 who won their district. And is that non 6 representative? No. They would say, "That is 7 democracy; the majority of the voters in my 8 district in the preference poll voted for so and 9 so, and that's who I'm voting for." 10 And it doesn't take a political 11 genius to realize in the present Legislature 12 that the most likely result is that the 13 Democratic candidate would win the districts of 14 Democratic members of the Assembly and the 15 Senate and the Republican candidate is most 16 likely to win the preference vote in the 17 districts represented by Republican members of 18 the Assembly and the Senate. And then we would 19 be back here and what's -- we now have to have 20 one of these joint resolutions? We'd be back to 21 gridlock. 22 We would have spent $20 million 23 on a preference, and I venture to say not a half 2969 1 a dozen members would do other than reflect the 2 preference vote in their district, and we end up 3 having spent $20 million on a statewide 4 preference vote and we'd be back here, the 5 Senate voting for the Republican candidate, the 6 Assembly voting for the Democratic candidate, 7 and no Comptroller. 8 To me, that's taking political 9 theatre a little far. Were we to have a system 10 like that, it wouldn't work. It wouldn't elect 11 a Comptroller. It wouldn't guide us on how to 12 elect a Comptroller. It would only guide 13 individual members on how to cast their votes, 14 and it may be that the handful whose district 15 voted for the opposite party person and they may 16 switch, but the net result will be -- would have 17 been if you had this preference that the 18 Republican Senate would vote for the Republican, 19 the Democratic Assembly would vote for the 20 Democrat. And you would have gridlock not an 21 answer. It's just not an answer. It's a press 22 release. It's not an answer. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 2970 1 Gold. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 3 President. Will Senator Nozzolio yield to a 4 question? 5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly, Mr. 6 President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 8 yields. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I 10 listened to your comments -- questions to 11 Senator Dollinger, and it made me wonder just 12 how you envisioned this working in your 13 situation. This is a non-binding vote. Now, if 14 the vote in your Senate district went one way 15 but somebody else had the majority in the state, 16 what would you do? What would you do? 17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'm a 18 representative of people. As such, I would look 19 to those citizens who cast their election 20 ballots in my district and vote the will of my 21 district. The point is, Senator Gold, to give 22 the people a say. It's not to decide -- we 23 still have judgment factors, but we want the 2971 1 people to have a say. But right now, the people 2 have no say and that our intention is only to 3 give that say to those people. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 5 yield to a question? 6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly, 7 Senator. 8 SENATOR GOLD: In other words, 9 would you in the way you feel about the exercise 10 of your office feel that you would be bound by 11 what happened in this referendum, even though 12 the language of it says it's not binding? 13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, we 14 could debate Edmund Burke all afternoon, but the 15 fact is we're trying to give the people a say in 16 this process. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Well, thank 18 you, Senator. 19 Mr. President, on the bill. I'm 20 glad you said what you said because I realize, 21 Senator Nozzolio, I am somebody who has great 22 empathy for you, because I came over from the 23 Assembly, and it took a while to get used to 2972 1 this house. 2 I understand your comments about 3 Senator Dollinger, but I really don't understand 4 those comments. Senator Dollinger gave you an 5 answer which was perhaps a little more lucid 6 than yours but in the same line. If it's not 7 binding, it's not binding. You consider it. 8 And I don't think there was one word in Senator 9 Dollinger's remarks where he indicated anything 10 other than a great respect for his constituents. 11 Now, Senator Nozzolio - 12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator Gold 13 yield? 14 SENATOR GOLD: Of course. 15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator Gold, 16 I don't know if you were here to hear the entire 17 commentary by my colleague from Rochester. But 18 what I took umbrage of Senator's remarks were 19 that he suggested only 30 people would vote in 20 such a referendum in his district. Now, I think 21 that flies in the face of respecting the fact 22 that the people in his district, as in all our 23 districts, are interested in these issues, and 2973 1 that that is why I rose, and that is why I made 2 the comment I made. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, 4 Senator. 5 Mr. President. As is quite 6 obvious at the end of April, having watched 7 Senator Dollinger perform his duties for four 8 months, he doesn't need any help from me in 9 taking care of himself. But that's not what he 10 said. I mean the point that he was making, 11 Senator Nozzolio, is simple. 12 If you have 100 percent of the 13 voting population in your district is X and in 14 this particular referendum just a fraction of 15 those people vote, I mean are you going to take 16 that as the total voice of your population? And 17 Senator Dollinger's remark was a very valid 18 one. It shows one of the faults of this 19 particular bill. 20 The other question I have for 21 you, Senator Nozzolio, which I'm not asking you 22 but I'm throwing it out there, is if you're so 23 concerned about the population why don't you put 2974 1 in a bill which really creates an election? This 2 non-binding business is just -- really creates 3 an absurdity. 4 Some quick comments. Somebody 5 used the expression that somebody over here was 6 going to hide behind the veil of the 7 constitution. Do you realize what a comment 8 that is? There is not one person in this house 9 that didn't raise his or her hand and swear to 10 uphold the constitution. I'm not hiding behind 11 it. I'm protecting it with every fiber in my 12 body. And if the constitution sets up a 13 process, I'm going to live by that process. 14 Comments were made, and I 15 understand now -- by the way, this is always an 16 education to be here. Senator Spano was 4 years 17 old in 1957. You were in the first grade. I 18 was -- look, I admit I'm getting older. I was 19 graduating Cornell and one year into law 20 school. You know, I'm glad we're learning about 21 each other. Senator Marchi was here making sure 22 the place still stayed. And I'm glad about all 23 of that. 2975 1 But, you know, it's very funny. 2 When you talk about being concerned about the 3 back door deals and all these terrible oops-da, 4 the stuff that happens in politics, that's what 5 you're talking about is 1957. And that's why 6 even though you were in the first grade you were 7 ashamed and, as I graduated from Cornell as a 8 government major, I was ashamed. And that's why 9 the Speaker and your Majority Leader and other 10 leaders said let's do it differently this year. 11 Now, I'm pretty sure that in 1957 12 there were no hearings. These hearings are 13 wonderful. There aren't hearings because the 14 constitution or the legislation says to do it. 15 There's hearings because a Speaker, who is 16 really -- what is the legislative word? - 17 mensch, wants the process out in the open, and 18 he wants people to hear from these people before 19 any election takes place. And at these hearings 20 Republicans as well as Democrats had an 21 opportunity to ask embarrassing questions, any 22 kind of question of these candidates, and that's 23 a process that no Republican Legislature ever 2976 1 did before when they had a majority in both 2 houses, and it's a process that was initiated 3 and agreed to by four leaders. It should have 4 been carried out. 5 As a matter of fact, when your 6 leadership and Rappleyea backed out of that 7 agreement, the Speaker and the Minority Leader 8 of this house even said, you know, "We're going 9 to hold the hearings, come in. Nobody is going 10 to tell you you don't have a seat, that you 11 can't be there to ask questions." 12 So the fact that you chose not to 13 participate doesn't mean it's a back-room 14 process. This is the most open process for an 15 election of this type that has ever happened in 16 the history of this state. It's interesting 17 that at this point you complain about it. The 18 closed processes you didn't complain about. 19 The bottom line here is that 20 while many people in this chamber and in other 21 chambers, in the other house, have suggested 22 that we ought to take a look at this, there is 23 nothing wrong with that. Maybe we should take a 2977 1 look at it. But the bottom line is that I don't 2 want this debate to close without some 3 recognition on the record that Manfred 4 Ohrenstein and Saul Weprin, together, are 5 responsible for the most open process of this 6 type in our history of our state and I, for one, 7 am very, very proud of them. Doesn't mean I 8 won't go to bat for a change. Doesn't mean that 9 the comments made by Senator Connor are not 10 articulate and bright and ought to be listened 11 to, because they are. And yours are not bad, 12 either. 13 But the point is that this 14 process is something we should be very proud 15 of. I'm voting against this bill today because 16 I think it is an answer to nothing, but I wanted 17 the record to indicate. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 19 Nozzolio to close. 20 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'm very proud 21 of this legislation, Senator Marino's and this 22 conference's attempt to make a bad process much 23 better. What this is all about, ladies and 2978 1 gentlemen, is giving the people a say. 2 You're sidetracking it, members 3 of the Minority. You are trying to obscure the 4 issue by suggesting that this referendum as a 5 non-binding referendum is a referendum without 6 merit. You are saying that even though people 7 would have a say under this process that their 8 say is still no good. 9 I challenge you to look at this 10 process as a non-binding one only because it's 11 the best we could do under the legal strictures 12 that we're confronted with. The state 13 constitution would not allow us in this bill to 14 state it to be a binding referendum. I dare say 15 if the measure had stated it was a binding 16 referendum, you would be up and charging that it 17 was against the constitution and, therefore, 18 would not be applicable. 19 We took that constitutional 20 argument away. We balanced the constitutional 21 argument and the non-binding nature of this 22 referendum as being half a loaf but better than 23 no loaf, allowing people the right to have a say 2979 1 in the process versus forbidding them to have 2 any say in a process that I believe has not 3 improved at all since 1957, when it was last 4 used. 5 We want the people to have a 6 voice in the selection of a new Comptroller. We 7 want that Comptroller to be independent of this 8 body, of the Assembly, of the Governor. The fox 9 should not be deciding who the guardian of the 10 chicken coop is to be. We believe the people 11 should have that say. 12 I will close by saying that Boss 13 Tweed would certainly approve of the way the 14 Democrats are selecting our next Comptroller. 15 It's time to diminish the influence of the power 16 brokers' influence on these decisions which are 17 made behind closed doors, and let the people 18 have the say in who the Comptroller is to be. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 20 last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 2980 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 4 Dollinger to explain his vote. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I just rise 6 to explain my vote. I join in the sentiments 7 expressed earlier by my colleague, Senator Gold, 8 with respect to the openness of this process. I 9 only point out to my colleagues on the other 10 side of the aisle, does it sound familiar when 11 you talk about a process that you are not heard 12 on? Does it sound familiar when we talk about 13 change, and it goes unheard? Does it sound 14 familiar when someone says we're trying to draw 15 attention to the fact that this is not an open 16 and public process and that the people are being 17 excluded like Senator McArdle did in his quote 18 in the New York Times? Does it sound like 19 Senator McArdle? Senator McArdle seems to speak 20 on behalf of most of the house most of the 21 time. 22 But I just point out to all of 23 you that when we talk on this side about opening 2981 1 up the process, about opening up the Senate, 2 about disclosing mail, about itemizing budgets, 3 about quarterly reports, so that the people will 4 have some accountability from us, seems to fall 5 on deaf ears on the other side of the aisle. 6 Now the same complaint comes back 7 to us, because something has changed. Because 8 suddenly the members of this conference have the 9 ability to stand in the majority with our 10 colleagues in the Assembly. 11 I would suggest as Senator Connor 12 has and Senator Gold has that maybe we drop all 13 this at some point in the future and talk about 14 real change and real reform so that the 15 sentiments that Senator Nozzolio expressed about 16 accountability and listening to the people that 17 it will be the norm in this house and not the 18 exception. 19 I vote no. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Announce 21 the results. 22 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 23 the negative on Calendar Number 558 are Senators 2982 1 Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Gold, Hoffmann, 2 Jones, Leichter, Markowitz, Masiello, Mendez, 3 Montgomery, Ohrenstein, Onorato, Stachowski and 4 Stavisky. Ayes 42, nays 15. Also Senator 5 Galiber recorded in the negative. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 7 is passed. 8 Senator Present. 9 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 10 May we take up Calendar 485, please. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 12 Secretary will read Calendar 485. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 485, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 4597, 15 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law and 16 the Transportation Law, in relation to railroad 17 real property. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 19 last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 23 roll. 2983 1 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2 SENATOR GOLD: Slow roll call. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 4 Dollinger, would you like to withdraw the roll 5 call? 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, Mr. 7 President. Could I just have a question - 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 9 Dollinger. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- perhaps to 11 the sponsor? As I understand it, the community 12 enhancement board will review the plans that are 13 submitted by the railroads in this case. 14 SENATOR LARKIN: Not by the 15 railroad. Local governments will submit plans. 16 Local government will be a participant in this 17 process and the board will review it, Senator. 18 And in the event that the railroads do not do 19 the enhancement program as they had projected, 20 they will not be entitled to the tax exemption 21 for the coming year. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just for my 23 edification, Senator, could you tell me where 2984 1 that is in the bill? I know it talks on page 9 2 of the bill that the board may approve, and then 3 it says it shall not approve, but just where in 4 the bill does it say that the tax exemption 5 shall not be granted? 6 SENATOR LARKIN: Senator, the 7 powers of the board are on page 5, and they 8 start on line 9. And the enhancement program 9 starts on page 60, line 8 and goes all the way 10 through. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I will 12 continue to search for it, Mr. President, but 13 I'm just intrigued by what happens if the plan 14 was disapproved and where the language was that 15 said that. 16 SENATOR LARKIN: Over a cup of 17 coffee in Rochester in the morning, I'll show it 18 to you. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, I'll 20 continue to look while we perhaps discuss it 21 further, if that's - 22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 23 last section. 2985 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Slow roll call. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Slow 5 roll call has been requested. Secretary will 6 call the roll. 7 Sergeant at arms, please get the 8 members in the chamber for a slow roll call. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush 10 excused. Senator Bruno. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor. 13 SENATOR CONNOR: Aye. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook. 15 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Daly. 17 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator 19 DeFrancisco. 20 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator 22 Dollinger. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: No. 2986 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 2 SENATOR ESPADA: No. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley 4 excused. Senator Galiber. 5 SENATOR GALIBER: No. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold. 7 SENATOR GOLD: No. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator 9 Gonzalez. 10 (There was no response. ) 11 Senator Goodman. 12 (There was no response. ) 13 Senator Halperin. 14 (There was no response. ) 15 Senator Hannon. 16 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann 18 voting in the negative earlier today. Senator 19 Holland. 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson 22 voting in the affirmative earlier today. 23 Senator Jones. 2987 1 SENATOR JONES: To explain my 2 vote. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 4 Jones to explain her vote. 5 SENATOR JONES: First, I want to 6 thank Senator Larkin, because it does represent 7 an effort to help the situation for the local 8 government. Certainly, letting the tax 9 abatement stand would not have been any help. 10 However, I just can't feel at 11 this point that it's enough. We keep talking 12 about our local government, the needs they 13 have. We cut back on revenue sharing. We have 14 concerns about school aid. The railroads have 15 become very profitable since that ceiling law 16 was first established. And I think if we want 17 to give the railroads a tax break that it's up 18 to the state to do it and not stick our local 19 governments with another issue where they could 20 have raised a little extra tax money. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: How do 22 you vote, Senator? 23 SENATOR JONES: No. 2988 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 2 Jones in the negative. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 4 SENATOR KUHL: Yes. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack 6 voting in the affirmative earlier today. 7 Senator Larkin. 8 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle 10 voting in the affirmative earlier today. 11 Senator Leichter voting in the 12 negative earlier today. 13 Senator Levy. 14 SENATOR LEVY: Aye. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous 16 voting in the affirmative earlier today. 17 Senator Maltese -- excuse me. 18 Senator Libous voting in the negative earlier 19 today. Senator Maltese voting in the 20 affirmative earlier today. 21 Senator Marchi. 22 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marino. 2989 1 (Indicating "Aye." ) 2 THE SECRETARY: Aye. Senator 3 Markowitz. 4 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Masiello. 6 SENATOR MASIELLO: No. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mega. 8 SENATOR MEGA: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez. 10 SENATOR MENDEZ: No. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator 12 Montgomery. 13 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nolan 15 voting in the negative earlier today. Senator 16 Nozzolio. 17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator 19 Ohrenstein. 20 (Indicating no. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: No. Senator 22 Onorato. 23 SENATOR ONORATO: No. 2990 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2 Oppenheimer. 3 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan. 5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Pataki. 7 SENATOR PATAKI: Aye. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator 9 Paterson. 10 (There was no response. ) 11 Senator Present. 12 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 14 SENATOR SALAND: Aye. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator 16 Santiago. 17 (There was no response. ) 18 Senator Sears. 19 SENATOR SEARS: Yes. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward 21 voting in the affirmative earlier today. 22 Senator Sheffer. 23 SENATOR SHEFFER: Yes. 2991 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 4 (There was no response. ) 5 Senator Solomon voting in the 6 negative earlier today. Senator Spano. 7 SENATOR SPANO: Yes. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator 9 Stachowski. 10 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: No. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford. 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stavisky 14 voting in the negative earlier today. Senator 15 Trunzo voting in the affirmative earlier today. 16 Senator Tully voting in the affirmative earlier 17 today. 18 Senator Velella. 19 (There was no response. ) 20 Senator Volker. 21 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon 23 excused. Senator Wright. 2992 1 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 3 Secretary will call the absentees. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator 5 Gonzalez. 6 (There was no response. ) 7 Senator Goodman. 8 (There was no response. ) 9 Senator Halperin. 10 (There was no response. ) 11 Senator Paterson. 12 (There was no response. ) 13 Senator Santiago. 14 (There was no response. ) 15 Senator Smith. 16 (There was no response. ) 17 Senator Velella. 18 (There was no response. ) 19 Ayes 32, nays 19. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 21 is passed. 22 Senator Galiber. 23 SENATOR GALIBER: Mr. President. 2993 1 I was not in the chamber yesterday, and I would 2 like to make a statement for the record, with 3 your permission. Yesterday, I was out of the 4 chamber; and if I were here, I would like to be 5 recorded for the record that I would have voted 6 in the negative on Bills Number 452, 455, 457 7 and 460. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Without 9 objection, the record will so indicate. 10 SENATOR GALIBER: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 13 Present. 14 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 15 I wish to call up a Rules bill, Senate Print 16 4651, which is now at the desk. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 18 Secretary will read. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 570, Senate Bill Number 4651, by the Committee 21 on Rules, amends Chapter 79 of the Laws of 1990 22 -- 1989, amending the Correction Law. 23 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 2994 1 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 2 bill passed and ask that it being restored to 3 Third Reading. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The 5 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration. 6 (The Secretary called the roll on 7 reconsideration. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 10 is before the house. 11 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 12 I now move to discharge the Committee on Crime 13 Victims and Crime and Correction from Assembly 14 Bill 7691 and substitute it for this identical 15 bill. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 17 Substitution ordered, without objection. 18 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 19 Is there a message of n ecessity at the desk on 20 this bill? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Yes, we 22 have a message at the desk. 23 SENATOR PRESENT: I move we 2995 1 accept the message. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: All 3 those in favor of accepting the message, signify 4 by saying aye. 5 (Response of "Aye.") 6 Those opposed, nay. 7 (There was no response. ) 8 The message is accepted. 9 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 10 May we have its third reading now. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 12 last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Unanimous. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 20 is passed. 21 Senator Present. 22 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 23 There being no further business, I move we 2996 1 adjourn until Monday, May 3rd, at 2:30 p.m., 2 intervening days to be legislative days. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senate 4 will stand adjourned until Monday at 2:30, 5 intervening days to be legislative days. 6 (Whereupon, at 4:23 p.m., the 7 Senate adjourned. ) 8 9 10 11