Monday, May 10, 1993

3362 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 May 10, 1993 11 3:08 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 SENATOR HUGH T. FARLEY, Acting President 19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 20 21 22 23 3363 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senate 3 will come to order. Senators will please find 4 their seats. 5 Rise with me for the Pledge of 6 Allegiance to the Flag. 7 (Whereupon the Senate joined in 8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. ) 9 If you will please bow your heads 10 for a moment of silent prayer. 11 (Whereupon there was a moment of 12 silence. ) 13 Secretary will begin by reading 14 the Journal. 15 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 16 Friday, May 7. The Senate met pursuant to 17 adjournment. Senator Bruno in the chair upon 18 designation of the Temporary President. The 19 Journal of Thursday, May 6, was read and 20 approved. On motion Senate adjourned. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hearing 22 no objection, the Journal will stand approved as 23 read. 3364 1 The order of business: 2 Presentation of petitions. 3 Messages from the Assembly. 4 Messages from the Governor. 5 Reports of standing committees. 6 Reports of select committees. 7 Communications and reports from 8 state officers. 9 Motions and resolutions. 10 Senator Libous. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Thank 12 you, Mr. President. On page 37, I offer the 13 following amendments to Calendar Number 581, 14 Senate Print 4294, and ask that the bill retain 15 its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 17 objection. 18 Senator Daly. 19 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. On 20 behalf of Senator Sears, I wish to call up his 21 bill, Number 3452A, recalled from the Assembly, 22 which is now at the desk. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 3365 1 Secretary will read Senator Sears' bill. 2 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Sears, 3 Senate Bill Number 3452A, an act to amend the 4 Agriculture and Markets Law. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 6 Daly. 7 SENATOR DALY: I now move to 8 reconsider the vote by which that bill passed. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 10 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration. 11 (The Secretary called the roll on 12 reconsideration. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 15 bill is before the house. 16 Senator Daly. 17 SENATOR DALY: I now offer the 18 following amendments. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 20 amendments are received. The bill will retain 21 its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 22 Are there any other motions on 23 the floor? 3366 1 Senator Saland. 2 SENATOR SALAND: I would like to 3 star Calendar 424, on page 22, Bill Number 4 4332. And I would like to remove the star from 5 Calendar 516. That's Senate 3642. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Bill is 7 starred at the request of the sponsor, and the 8 star is removed. 9 Senator Volker. 10 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President. 11 Can I make an inquiry? Has there been any new 12 Court of Appeals decision inhibiting our ability 13 to handle the session since I left the LOB? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I don't 15 recall. 16 SENATOR VOLKER: Thank you. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 18 Present, we have some substitutions. Secretary 19 will read the substitutions. 20 THE SECRETARY: On page 5 of 21 today's calendar, Senator Hannon moves to 22 discharge the Committee on Housing and Community 23 Development from Assembly Bill Number 1762 and 3367 1 substitute it for the identical Calendar Number 2 690. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 4 Substitutions ordered. 5 THE SECRETARY: On page 30, 6 Senator LaValle moves to discharge the Committee 7 on Higher Education from Assembly Bill Number 8 7119 and substitute it for the identical 9 Calendar Number 594. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 11 Substitution is ordered. 12 Senator Present, what's your 13 pleasure? 14 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 15 Let's go to non-controversial calendar, please. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 17 Non-controversial, the Secretary will read. 18 THE SECRETARY: On page 21, 19 Calendar Number 346, by Senator Skelos, Senate 20 Bill Number 3860A. 21 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 22 aside. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 3368 1 aside. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 395, by Senator Kuhl. 4 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 5 aside. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 7 aside. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 436, by Senator Libous. 10 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 11 aside. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 13 aside. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 499, by Senator - 16 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 17 aside. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 19 aside. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 505, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 22 1422B, Economic Development Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 3369 1 the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 5 the roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 9 bill is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 530, by Senator Lack, Senate Bill Number 3765, 12 an act to amend the Labor Law. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 14 the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 18 the roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 22 bill is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3370 1 531, by Senator Lack, Senate Bill Number 3766A, 2 Workers' Compensation Law. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 4 the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 8 the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 12 bill is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 536, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 1282, 15 an act to amend Chapter 668 of the Laws of 16 1977. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 18 the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 22 the roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3371 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39. 2 I'm sorry. Ayes 38, nays 1, 3 Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 5 bill is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 530. 8 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 9 aside. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 11 aside. 12 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 13 for the day. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 15 aside for the day. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 566. 18 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 19 for the day, please. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay 21 that aside for the day. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 568, by Senator Cook. 3372 1 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 2 aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 4 aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 571, by Senator Mega, Senate Bill Number 2089, 7 Executive Law and the Criminal Procedure Law. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 9 the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 13 the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 17 bill is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: 573, by Senator 19 Marino, Senate Bill Number - 20 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 21 aside. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 23 aside. 3373 1 THE SECRETARY: 574, by Senator 2 Johnson, Senate Bill Number 1961, Environmental 3 Conservation Law. 4 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 5 aside. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 7 aside. 8 SENATOR JOHNSON: For the day. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: For the 10 day. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 594, substituted earlier today, by member of the 13 Assembly McEneny, Assembly Bill Number 7119, 14 amends Chapter 132 of the laws of 1990, 15 authorizing the State University of New York to 16 contract for research development. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 18 the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 22 the roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3374 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 3 bill is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: 595, by Senator 5 Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 2667, an act to amend 6 the Navigation Law. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 8 the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 12 the roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 16 bill is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: 602, by Senator 18 Velella. 19 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 20 aside. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 22 aside. 23 THE SECRETARY: 603, by Senator 3375 1 Velella, Senate Bill Number 4504, an act to 2 amend the Insurance Law. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 4 the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 8 the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 12 bill is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 604, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number 15 439A, Retirement and Social Security Law. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 17 the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 21 the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40. 3376 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 2 bill is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 605, by Senator Padavan. 5 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 6 aside. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 8 aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 606, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 2742, 11 Retirement and Social Security Law. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 14 aside. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 607, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 3511, 17 Retirement and Social Security Law. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 20 aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 609, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 4649, 23 Education Law, in relation to employer 3377 1 contributions. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 3 the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 7 the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 11 bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 612, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 3589, 14 an act to amend the Public Authorities Law. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 16 the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 20 the roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That 3378 1 bill is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 614. 4 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 5 aside. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 7 aside. 8 Senator Present, that's the first 9 time through. 10 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 11 Let's take up the controversial calendar. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 13 Controversial. Secretary will read. 14 THE SECRETARY: On page 21. 15 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 16 temporarily. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 18 aside temporarily. 19 THE SECRETARY: Page 22, Calendar 20 Number 395, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 21 3414A, an act to amend the Agriculture and 22 Markets Law. 23 SENATOR KUHL: Lay it aside until 3379 1 tomorrow, please. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 3 aside for the day. 4 SENATOR KUHL: Read the last 5 section. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 7 the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 11 the roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 41, nays 1. 14 Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 16 bill is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 436, by Senator Libous, Senate Bill Number 1526, 19 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation 20 Law. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 23 Explanation has been asked for, Senator Libous. 3380 1 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr. 2 President. This bill will allow Sunday hunting 3 for three Sundays during the year from November 4 22nd to December 14th in the counties of Broome, 5 Cayuga, Chenango, Cortland, Madison, Onondaga, 6 Oswego, Tioga, and Tompkins Counties. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 8 the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 12 the roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 SENATOR GOLD: Will Senator yield 15 to one question? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 17 Libous? 18 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes, I will, 19 Senator. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 21 yields. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, Senator, as 23 you know, this is supported by DEC. 3381 1 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes. 2 SENATOR GOLD: And it is opposed 3 by SPCA, Sierra Club, et cetera, some of the 4 church councils. This would allow three 5 Sundays, is that it? 6 SENATOR LIBOUS: It's not every 7 Sunday. It would only require that there be 8 Sunday hunting during the season which will run, 9 this year, 1993, between November 22nd and 10 December 14th. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Would you yield to 12 one other question? 13 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes, sir. 14 SENATOR GOLD: I'm not a hunter, 15 but why is it that we have a law today that 16 prohibits people from hunting on any Sunday? 17 What is the argument? 18 SENATOR LIBOUS: Well, it's funny 19 you asked that question, Senator, because Mr. 20 President, what we did is a little research. 21 And, you know, Sunday hunting is allowed in most 22 of the state to the east of us. Unfortunately, 23 it is not allowed in this region and to the 3382 1 west. 2 But we did a little bit of 3 research, and we believe that basically at the 4 turn of the century, in the Southern Tier 5 particularly -- and this is DEC Region Number 7 6 -- it was exclusively farmed at that time, and 7 it really didn't have an adequate habitat for 8 deer. And, subsequently, the deer herds moved 9 in, into the Adirondacks and up from 10 Pennsylvania. And then in the late '20s, the 11 depression hit, and the agriculture bottomed 12 out, and that left many farmers with no choices 13 but to sell their land to the state. 14 And as time went on, we found 15 that the deer hunting became -- actually, I 16 guess the deer herd became aggressively 17 collecting in this area. And then, basically, 18 from what we can tell, there was no purpose at 19 that time. We recognize now, though, there is a 20 need for increasing it for three days during the 21 regular big game season, because there is a lot 22 of herd. They need to manage the herd and 23 control it. 3383 1 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Senator, if 2 you'll yield to one more question? 3 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes, Mr. 4 President. I'll do so. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Is there any 6 reason why we don't allow hunters to hunt every 7 Sunday? I mean we have a hunting season. Let 8 them hunt seven days a week. 9 SENATOR LIBOUS: Actually, Mr. 10 President, they can hunt every Sunday, but they 11 can't hunt big game at the present time. They 12 can hunt squirrel and other types of animals 13 right now every Sunday. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 15 the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 19 the roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 22 the negative on Calendar Number 436 are Senators 23 Galiber, LaValle, Maltese, Nozzolio, Onorato, 3384 1 Padavan and Present. Ayes 39, nays 7. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 3 bill is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 499, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 1644, 6 proposing amendment to the constitution. 7 SENATOR HALPERIN: Explanation. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 9 Explanation. Senator Larkin. 10 Lay it aside temporarily. Oh, I 11 didn't see you there, Senator Larkin. Sorry. 12 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President. 13 This is the second passage of this 14 Constitutional Amendment. It passed unanimous 15 last year. This resolution authorizes the 16 Constitutional Amendment to allow local 17 governments to issue bonds with level or 18 declining debt service and to issue zero coupon 19 bonds provided contributions are made to a 20 sinking fund to cover any interest which is not 21 paid annually or included in leveling or 22 declining debt service. This would be the 23 second passage of this bill. 3385 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 2 resolution. Call the roll on the resolution. 3 (The Secretary called the roll on 4 the resolution. ) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45, nays 2. 6 Senators Galiber and Gold recorded in the 7 negative. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 9 resolution is adopted. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 568, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 4156, 12 an act authorizing the Commissioner of General 13 Services to sell and convey certain land in the 14 town of Ulster. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 16 the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 20 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 22 Cook. 23 SENATOR COOK: Is there some 3386 1 problem with the bill? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 3 Halperin, why do you rise? 4 SENATOR HALPERIN: Could you 5 please -- I would like to have the vote 6 reconsidered by which Calendar Number 499 just 7 passed. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Well - 9 I guess we can. 10 Senator Present, is that 11 agreeable with you? 12 Call the roll on reconsideration 13 on the resolution that just passed by Senator 14 Larkin. 15 (The Secretary called the roll on 16 reconsideration. ) 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 18 resolution is before the house. 19 SENATOR HALPERIN: Would Senator 20 Larkin please provide an explanation? 21 Oh, he did? Sorry. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: He did 23 already. 3387 1 SENATOR LARKIN: I already did. 2 SENATOR HALPERIN: Well, Senator, 3 could you then yield to a question? 4 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes. 5 SENATOR HALPERIN: As I 6 understand - 7 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 8 Point of order. Another bill has been called 9 and I thought we were awaiting the Minority 10 Leader on that. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, you are 12 absolutely correct. It doesn't always mean much 13 here. Senator Cook, first of all, could you let 14 me have one day on your bill, aside from 15 everything else? 16 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Just a 18 moment. I want to get some order in where we 19 are going in the proceeding. Senator Halperin 20 asked for reconsideration of a resolution that 21 just passed. Out of courtesy, there seemed to 22 be no objection and we reconsidered the 23 resolution it is before the house. 3388 1 Senator Halperin, did you have a 2 question that you wanted to ask Senator Larkin? 3 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 5 Gold. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. Mr. 7 President, what happened was exactly accurate. 8 Senator Cook's bill was on the floor. We asked 9 for a moment. If we can just straighten that 10 out, I'm sure we will be back on the same place 11 in a second. Senator Cook has graciously agreed 12 to give us one day on his bill. So if we can 13 just do that and lay it aside for the day and 14 come right back here, I think we will show due 15 respect for Senator Cook. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We will 17 lay Senator Cook's bill aside for the day. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 19 President. 20 We're currently on Senator 21 Larkin's resolution. 22 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, Mr. 23 President. 3389 1 SENATOR HALPERIN: Mr. 2 President. Would Senator Larkin yield to a 3 question, please? 4 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, Mr. 5 President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 7 Larkin. 8 SENATOR HALPERIN: I understand 9 the purpose of this bill, which is I think is 10 laudable. The bill, of course, affects the 11 entire state, and I'm particularly concerned 12 about the impact upon an existing procedure 13 within the city of New York and existing policy 14 as relates to zero coupon bonds. Now, as I 15 understand it, this bill would require a reserve 16 to be established for zero coupon bonds. Is 17 that accurate? 18 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, sir. 19 SENATOR HALPERIN: And that 20 presently it's my understanding that the city of 21 New York issues zero coupon bonds in such a 22 manner as to have an equal amount, more or less, 23 coming due on an annual basis. Is that 3390 1 correct? 2 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes. 3 SENATOR HALPERIN: So, then, the 4 concern that's been expressed to me by 5 representatives of the City is that since they 6 have a payment schedule that does not result in 7 what one might refer to as ballooning but, 8 rather, in a level payment schedule as it is, 9 based upon the due dates and the issuance dates 10 of the bonds that what this might do is to cause 11 money to be set aside that would otherwise be 12 able to be used for the needs of the budget, 13 which I think we all recognize are very severe 14 in the city of New York, and might not really 15 provide any great protection because the way 16 that the bonds are issued already is being done 17 in a responsible manner. 18 Have you dealt with this issue? 19 Have you considered this question? 20 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, we did look 21 at it. Last year, it was brought up in a milder 22 fashion by the city of New York. They never 23 followed through on what they wanted to do until 3391 1 a couple of days ago. 2 But, as you just mentioned, this 3 doesn't only affect the city of New York. This 4 affects the entire state of New York; and 5 without this, the rest of the state cannot do 6 anything. The Association of Counties, the 7 Conference of Mayors, Association of Towns and 8 School Districts are all supportive of this 9 because it gives a level playing field with the 10 zero coupon bonds. 11 The compelling reason that the 12 city of New York gave when they gave the outline 13 of the three factors of how they were doing it, 14 in my opinion the difference is not as great as 15 they make it out to be. 16 SENATOR HALPERIN: Well, then 17 finally, Senator, if you'll just - 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 19 Senator, will you yield to another question? 20 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, sir. 21 SENATOR HALPERIN: Senator, you 22 said when this bill passed last year, the City 23 raised some issues and it was not until two 3392 1 weeks ago that you heard from them again? 2 SENATOR LARKIN: Senator, it was 3 just about a week ago when the city of New York 4 finally realized that this was going to happen. 5 Since January, everybody knew that this was the 6 second year for passage of this bill, and nobody 7 in the city of New York contacted me. Until 8 this came on the Third Reading Calendar was the 9 first time that the city of New York contacted 10 us. 11 We, at the request of Senator 12 Goodman, laid it aside, and we have had nothing 13 further except for their one memo. They didn't 14 come up. They didn't say we would like to see 15 this done; we would like to see that done. If 16 they have such a great interest, I just don't 17 think a memo to say, "A memo in opposition." 18 What do you have to offer? 19 Why should the rest of the state 20 be held hostage for the city of New York? I 21 don't think New York City should be held hostage 22 for the rest of the state. 23 SENATOR HALPERIN: Senator 3393 1 Larkin, if you will yield to another question? 2 Has this bill passed the Assembly yet? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 4 Larkin. 5 SENATOR LARKIN: No. 6 SENATOR HALPERIN: Thank you very 7 much, Senator. 8 On the bill. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 10 bill. That's on the resolution. 11 SENATOR HALPERIN: On the 12 resolution, excuse me. 13 I do have some concern about the 14 impact this might have, as I described to you. 15 I understand that the amount of money involved 16 is not that great, although I think at this 17 point in time the City of New York can use every 18 dollar it has. However, given the fact that the 19 Assembly has not yet acted on the bill and that 20 apparently, according to what you said, the City 21 has not acted expeditiously, maybe the passage 22 of this bill will cause them to raise the issue 23 with the appropriate degree of urgency in the 3394 1 Assembly so that we can try to deal with the 2 problem that the City has brought forth to me. 3 But, on the other hand, I wouldn't want to stand 4 in the way of the rest of the state being able 5 to enter into the bond market in ways that may 6 be very important to them. So I will vote for 7 this legislation, but I would hope that some 8 kind of compromise can be worked out to try to 9 deal with the problem the City has. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On 11 Senator Larkin's resolution, will the Secretary 12 call the roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49, nays 2, 15 Senators Galiber and Gold recorded in the 16 negative. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 18 resolutions adopted. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 573, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 3588, 21 Executive Law, in relation to discretionary 22 release on parole. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 3395 1 Galiber. 2 SENATOR GALIBER: Can we have an 3 explanation? 4 SENATOR VOLKER: I know I'm not 5 as handsome or as erudite as Senator Marino, but 6 I will certainly try to answer if I can. Yes, 7 Senator. 8 SENATOR GALIBER: I just asked 9 for an explanation on it. 10 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 11 SENATOR GALIBER: Or maybe I can 12 ask a couple of questions. 13 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 14 SENATOR GALIBER: With your 15 background and we have - 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 17 Galiber, I'm going to ask you to talk into the 18 mike even though he's at your back, and then you 19 can turn around and listen to his answer. 20 SENATOR GALIBER: All right. Mr. 21 President. Senator Volker's background would 22 suggest that he is aware of a problem that this 23 creates. The Parole Board at the present time 3396 1 takes into consideration all these factors that 2 are now covered by this bill not the second 3 go-round but first go-round. 4 So, Mr. President, I ask the 5 sponsor or my colleague who is giving an 6 explanation, what is the need for this? And do 7 you agree at the present time the long-termers 8 in particular that the Parole Board looks at 9 factors, factors that look at how they would 10 react and how dangerous to the community they 11 would be? 12 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, I think 13 the genesis of this bill, and I know it very 14 well, we try to monitor as much as possible - 15 and keep in mind, Senator Marino, prior to being 16 Majority Leader, in his younger days was 17 chairman of Crime and Corrections, as you well 18 know. It seems to me that you, Senator, were 19 ranking and on that committee and very, very 20 active. 21 SENATOR GALIBER: In my other 22 life. 23 SENATOR VOLKER: In your other 3397 1 life. And I have to remember we were all 2 together, as the saying goes, in many trying 3 times in those days. But if you look back at 4 what has happened here and look at what is 5 happening in the parole system over the last few 6 years, my characterization of this bill is maybe 7 something like a nudge. What's been really 8 happening here is on the second -- on the 9 reconsideration, it appears almost as if the 10 Parole Board has been just without any question 11 letting people out, and there seems to me -- and 12 there have been some people, by the way, asking 13 us in their zeal to let people out of prison. 14 And, by the way, Senator, I assume you realize 15 that although I know that the head of the Parole 16 Board has taken some steps to try to stem the 17 tide a little bit that the number of people 18 being paroled today is probably at an all time 19 high without question. 20 We are paroling people or sending 21 them to work release or sending them into 22 various programs at a rate that is way beyond 23 anything that we have done in the past. It is 3398 1 something that we do not generally talk about. 2 Certainly, some states that have these varied 3 programs that some people have been trying to 4 get us to do are doing people in greater numbers 5 because the law is so open-ended that it's 6 allowing them to do it. But make no mistake 7 about it. We are paroling an enormous amount of 8 people in this state right now. 9 On reconsideration, there seems 10 to be an attitude developing and among some 11 parole people that they should really not look 12 at the file almost. Just let them out. In 13 fact, as you and I well know, Senator, there has 14 been a proposal for virtual automatic parole on 15 second consideration, which we have rejected 16 over the years. 17 What we're trying to do here - 18 what Senator Marino is trying to do here and the 19 language, "reasonable possibility", is language 20 that, as I say, is strong enough and yet not 21 very strong intending to say to a Parole Board 22 member: You must look at the file; and if there 23 is any indication that something that person did 3399 1 could make him a danger to the community, then 2 that consideration should be made at the time 3 that his reconsideration is taken up as far as 4 parole is concerned. It gives that parole 5 member, Parole Board member, the ability and the 6 legal ability to make a decision that it's 7 arguable maybe he or she could not make now. 8 And that's what this bill really is. 9 I don't think that Senator Marino 10 envisions, and I certainly don't, that this is 11 going to mean that all sorts of people are going 12 to be held on second consideration that maybe 13 weren't before, but I think it may give a little 14 more authority to the Parole Board, and also 15 maybe a little message to the Parole Board, that 16 they had better be a little more diligent in 17 taking a look at some of the inmates who are 18 being let out on parole in the street. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 20 Galiber. 21 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator. Mr. 22 President. Will Senator yield for a question? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I'm 3400 1 sure he will. Senator Volker. 2 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, do we 3 have any memo in opposition or in favor of this 4 piece of legislation from the parole 5 commissioner or from the board? 6 SENATOR VOLKER: To my knowledge, 7 Senator, I do not know of a memo in favor or 8 against, and I suspect that there is none either 9 for or against. 10 Of course, Senator, in all due 11 respect, it probably is a little unlikely that 12 the Parole Board -- they might put one out 13 against one of my bills but probably less likely 14 to put one out against Senator Marino's bill, 15 frankly, although I have heard nothing from the 16 Parole Board in objection to this bill, to be 17 very honest with you. 18 SENATOR GALIBER: Will the 19 Senator yield for another question? 20 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I'm 22 sure he will. 23 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, do you 3401 1 feel this is redundant, this bill? You 2 mentioned earlier that at the present time the 3 Parole Board is looking, I believe, very 4 carefully at the files. I think perhaps the 5 category that we make reference to or you imply 6 this could be applicable to the young persons on 7 the earned eligibility, those who are not in the 8 long-term category. Are those the ones this is 9 directed at, if you know? 10 SENATOR VOLKER: No, Senator. 11 Let me just say this to you. If you look at the 12 history of this bill, in one sense, I guess, 13 maybe I had thought in the past that it might be 14 a bit redundant, because this bill has not been 15 released from my committee in the past. I don't 16 remember now whether this year this bill is in, 17 but a similar bill was in my committee. It may 18 have been in Crime and Corrections this year. I 19 just don't remember. I didn't really look at 20 it. I think maybe this is in Crime and 21 Corrections, but a similar bill. 22 But, very honestly, Senator, we 23 have been looking at the numbers, the parole 3402 1 numbers, and I think really what this bill is 2 designed to do is maybe as a reminder to the 3 Parole Board that you have to be very, very 4 careful when you are dealing with some of the 5 serious people that we have in our system. 6 You know, Senator, we don't have 7 -- we have only a handful of non-violent people 8 in our system, and most of those people are DWI 9 people who -- we have a lot of people who are 10 DWI. I have been looking at that lately because 11 we have been criticized because we're not 12 putting people away for driving while 13 intoxicated. Well, I have news for a lot of 14 people. We are. And I would suspect we're 15 probably putting more people away for driving 16 while intoxicated today than -- I'm just 17 guessing, but I've got to believe more than any 18 state in the Union, because most of the 19 so-called non-violent inmates that we have in 20 our system appear to be driving while 21 intoxicated people. 22 But, on the other hand, we have a 23 system that is -- although it is filled, we also 3403 1 have a lot of inmates applying for parole who 2 have violent backgrounds. And I think it seemed 3 to Senator Marino that it was appropriate to put 4 legislation in of this nature to remind the 5 Parole Board members that they should be looking 6 at the background of the people who they are 7 reconsidering for parole, and that it is still 8 their duty and their ability to hold those 9 people if it seems that they could create some 10 sort of danger to the community. 11 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, one 12 other question. 13 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 14 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator - 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 16 Volker, will you yield for one more question? 17 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly. 18 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, do you 19 know of any particular incident in Senator 20 Marino's district that would motivate this kind 21 of legislation, isolated situation? Usually 22 that's what happens in cases like this. 23 SENATOR VOLKER: I really can't, 3404 1 Senator, but I will say this. I think you are 2 aware that there have been a number of incidents 3 in the last year involving people on parole who 4 have committed subsequent crimes, some pretty 5 heavy crimes. I really couldn't say to you that 6 they were reconsidered people. I really 7 couldn't. And I don't know, Senator Marino 8 might be able to tell you that, but I just don't 9 know if there was any specific incident. 10 SENATOR GALIBER: All right. 11 Thank you, Senator. 12 Mr. President, on the bill. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 14 bill. Senator Galiber. 15 SENATOR GALIBER: Mr. President. 16 Parole has been a very ticklish situation for 17 many, many years for some of us, not necessarily 18 those who would suggest that there are some 19 legislators who are coddling inmates and want to 20 open up the flood gates and let them out. 21 That's not so. But what has happened in the 22 past and will happen in the future if this piece 23 of legislation goes through, it will pour salt, 3405 1 if you will, on an already open wound. 2 That second go-round when a 3 person is turned down the first go-round, that 4 person is not in the small category of one to 5 three or three to six. Those persons are turned 6 down who are long-termers, and you are adding 7 to, giving to the Parole Board something that 8 they don't even want, very frankly, and that is, 9 there is enough pressure put on the Parole Board 10 now for those long-terms who have been in jail 11 for some 15 or 20 years, and they keep going 12 back after every two years, and they take into 13 consideration the nature of the crime which is a 14 kind of a catch-all phrase, and they send them 15 back. 16 This piece of legislation is not 17 wanted even by the Parole Board, very frankly. 18 They feel that they have adequate space to do 19 this if they want to in the first instance. All 20 this really does is add another tool onto the 21 parole commissioner's list of instruments that 22 they have to use to satisfy a political climate, 23 a political climate. They have persons in jail, 3406 1 some of whom are 60, 70, 75 years of age. Can't 2 even walk over, if you will, the barbed wire. 3 They can't even walk over, and they are being 4 turned back on a day-to-day basis. 5 I had a matter last week before 6 the Appellate Division, Senator Volker. A young 7 man who -- an old man now, because he spent some 8 20 years in jail on an allegation that he shot 9 and killed a police officer out of uniform. He 10 killed a person who happened to be a police 11 officer. And the theory is they keep sending 12 him back, and the parole commissioner says 13 never. As long as he has been found guilty of 14 killing a police officer, we will never let him 15 out. Bad statement. Didn't really mean to say 16 it that way, but it came up in the discussion 17 last Friday. 18 What has happened here is that 19 there are pressures being applied to the Parole 20 Board to take those long-termers, most of whom 21 don't create any problems any more -- don't even 22 create any problems any more. They are part of, 23 if you will -- almost part of the administration 3407 1 in our prison system. Trustees, almost like a 2 para-person. Para -- not paralegals but para 3 professionals, almost, in a way of speaking. 4 So, Mr. President, this piece of 5 legislation adds another weight to the Parole 6 Board. I don't think they want it. I 7 personally believe, and I don't know for a fact, 8 that this was a case, an isolated case that 9 might have happened in Senator Marino's 10 Senatorial District. We all do this. We have a 11 knee-jerk reaction. Something happens in our 12 district, and we come in and we throw in a piece 13 of legislation. 14 But there are prisoners now that 15 come before the Parole Board -- and as I said 16 last Friday, because this person has 17 persistently said, "I didn't do it," they hold 18 it against him. So between the nature of the 19 crime and the seriousness and whether they go 20 back in the community, this is merely a 21 redundant piece of legislation. Dangerous only 22 in the sense that it gives those persons who are 23 on the parole commission who react, if you will, 3408 1 to the public and react to political pressure 2 another tool to deal with. 3 This is not needed. It's a bad 4 piece of legislation. I vote no. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 6 the last section of Senator Marino's bill. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 10 the roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56, nays 3. 13 Senators Galiber, Gold and Leichter recorded in 14 the negative. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Bill is 16 passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 602, by Senator Velella. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay 21 that bill aside. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 605, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number 3409 1 1854, Administrative Code of the city of New 2 York. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on one 4 second. 5 Explanation. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 7 Explanation. Senator Padavan. 8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President. 9 This legislation would amend the Administrative 10 Code and the Retirement and Social Security Law 11 to include district attorney investigators in 12 the current 20-year retirement system that all 13 policemen in the city of New York, and many 14 statewide, are in. Within the City, they are 15 the only policemen who are not in that pension 16 system, and this law would allow them to be so. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 18 Halperin. 19 SENATOR HALPERIN: Would Senator 20 Padavan yield to a question? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 22 Padavan. 23 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 3410 1 SENATOR HALPERIN: I know there 2 are a number of bills pending which would enable 3 -- and I think we've already done it for the 4 correction officers -- enable various union 5 members to buy into similar benefits; but they, 6 as I said, have to buy into it. In this case, 7 these investigators are being elevated to a -- I 8 don't know if you call it a higher tier or 9 certainly being given greater benefits without 10 buying into it. 11 I understand there is a major 12 bill that may be coming down pretty soon as 13 relates to the Transit Workers Union where, once 14 again, they are willing to buy into the better 15 benefits. I'm concerned about establishing a 16 precedent with this legislation that might be 17 very, very costly to the City and the state as 18 time goes on by re-opening this. But on the 19 other hand, you mentioned that there were no 20 police anywhere in the city that have - 21 SENATOR PADAVAN: That are not in 22 the pension system. 23 SENATOR HALPERIN: That are not 3411 1 in that? 2 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes, these are 3 the only ones left. 4 SENATOR HALPERIN: They don't 5 have to pay for it? So these would be the only 6 police officers? 7 SENATOR PADAVAN: There are 173 8 of them who currently are not in that system. 9 Every other police officer in the city of New 10 York in any of the components. 11 SENATOR HALPERIN: Every new 12 employee of the police department goes into the 13 same system that this bill would pus these 14 individuals into. 15 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. Section 16 13-225 of the retirement system. They are all 17 in it. 18 SENATOR HALPERIN: Okay. Thank 19 you, Senator. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 21 Leichter. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 23 President. If Senator Padavan would yield, I 3412 1 would just like to follow up on Senator 2 Halperin's question, which is - 3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 5 Padavan. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Are these 7 investigators police officers? 8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Do they go 10 through the police academy? 11 SENATOR PADAVAN: I can't answer 12 that part of it, but they are police officers. 13 They function as police officers. I'm sure as a 14 practicing attorney, you know what they do for 15 the district attorney. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: No, I don't. 17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, they 18 function as police officers within the D.A.'s 19 office under his direction, meaning they 20 investigate, they make arrests. They do all the 21 things that any police detective would do 22 outside the D.A.'s office. It presents all of 23 the difficulties as well as dangers of that type 3413 1 of position. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: And I just 3 want to understand how they are hired and how 4 they are trained. Do they come up through the 5 regular police process? You said that you don't 6 believe they go to the academy, but do they come 7 off the police list? Do they take the exam for 8 the police department? 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: I believe they 10 do. See, these people have been in this office, 11 in this position, for many years, so I can't 12 tell you as a matter of fact what list they got 13 off of. They may have been a police officer and 14 transferred to the D.A.'s office. I understand 15 many of them -- how many, I don't know, but some 16 fall into that category. They have may have 17 been a transit police officer, a housing police 18 officer, an NYPD police officer, and transferred 19 into the D.A.'s office. They could have been a 20 member of the State Police. They could have 21 been a state trooper. There are a variety of 22 ways they could have gotten to this position, 23 but they are obviously all trained for it, and 3414 1 they are all New York City police officers. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 3 President. Would Senator Padavan yield to a 4 question? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 6 Padavan. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if, 8 indeed, they were regular police officers and 9 then transferred, wouldn't their pension 10 benefits continue? 11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Not 12 necessarily. No, because they move -- the 13 answer to your question is the pension benefits 14 are with the position not from where they came 15 from. The current position that we are seeking 16 to change does not provide for a 20-year pension 17 system. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if 19 you would be good enough to continue to yield. 20 SENATOR PADAVAN: Sure. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah. I can 22 not argue with your answer, because I'm really 23 not knowledgeable in this area, but it is my 3415 1 belief that once you are in the police pension 2 system and you transfer into one of these 3 positions in the district attorney's office, 4 it's hard for me to believe that you wouldn't 5 continue to be covered. 6 Senator Padavan, do you know 7 historically why these people if, as you say, 8 they are in all manner and means tantamount to 9 being police officers who are not covered in the 10 police pension system? 11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Historically, 12 no, I don't. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 15 Leichter. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Briefly on the 17 bill. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 19 bill. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: My concern is, 21 and I gather it must have been Senator 22 Halperin's concern because he asked questions 23 that I thought were pertinent, is that while I 3416 1 think all of us want to be as generous as we 2 possibly can be with public employees and 3 certainly those who go and risk their lives and 4 we appreciate how important the service is, but 5 one of the things that we find is there becomes 6 a greater and greater pension burden on the city 7 of New York and on local governments as a result 8 of the action that we take. 9 And we're being asked please 10 reduce expenditures. Many of you on the other 11 side of the aisle get up and you rail about big 12 expenditures. Well, one of the biggest 13 expenditures is all of these pension benefits 14 that we give. And I'm just frankly unsure, 15 Senator, whether this is a meritorious 16 something. That it was a mistake; it was 17 overlooked; it should be done; we're rectifying 18 a wrong; or whether we are giving the sort of a 19 benefit, Senator, that we would like to give if 20 we could be very generous but that we can't be 21 that free with public monies. I'm not sure I 22 know the answer to that, but I am concerned. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 3417 1 the last section. 2 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President. 3 Just one second. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 5 Padavan. 6 SENATOR PADAVAN: You're right, 7 Senator. Obviously, we have to be concerned 8 about the fiscal impact of everything we do 9 here. The fiscal information we received is 10 that this would cost 500,000 a year. That comes 11 from the appropriate fiscal authorities that 12 gives us that kind of information. So we are 13 talking about $500,000 that the city of New York 14 would have to provide annually with regard to 15 these individuals that it does not at this 16 moment in time provide. 17 However, Senator, I think we have 18 to look a little bit beyond that. I would think 19 if I were a district attorney in the city of New 20 York dealing with some -- I guess just virtually 21 every county -- some very serious issues in 22 terms of criminality and I need people working 23 for me who are the best that are available to 3418 1 have with me doing this kind of work, I would 2 not want to feel that I got someone in that 3 position who is not as capable with the 4 background and experience that someone seeking a 5 similar if not identical position in one of the 6 other police components that serves the people 7 of the city of New York. 8 What I am suggesting to you in 9 terms of future recruitment, if not dealing with 10 the equity of the current situation -- and, 11 frankly, I would not have sponsored this bill if 12 I did not feel there is an inequality here. But 13 looking even beyond that in terms of the 14 economics that you have raised, I think it's 15 important that the district attorneys be on the 16 same playing field as every other law 17 enforcement component in the city of New York in 18 terms of the kind of individuals that they have 19 working for them in a police capacity. And 20 pension systems are obviously one of the 21 considerations that lead people to seek law 22 enforcement as a career. And so I think you 23 have to look at it not in terms of only the 3419 1 $500,000 but the performance level down the 2 road. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 5 Gold. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Padavan 7 yield to a question? 8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 10 Padavan. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, first of 12 all, you said that the district attorneys should 13 not be disadvantaged. Have the District 14 Attorneys Association filed a memo in support of 15 this? 16 SENATOR PADAVAN: The District 17 Attorneys Association have not filed any memo at 18 all, to my knowledge. If you have one, I'd be 19 happy if you shared it with me, but I have not 20 received from them any communication. But I 21 would suspect that past history being any gauge 22 that if they had some opposition to this bill, 23 they would let me know. 3420 1 As a matter of fact, last 2 Wednesday I received a call from our district 3 attorney in Queens County on another bill that 4 hopefully we will be dealing with in the near 5 future involving pension systems that he called 6 up about. So I'm sure that if he had a problem 7 with this bill, although I didn't ask him to be 8 accurate, he would have told me. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Will the gentleman 10 yield to another question? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 12 Padavan. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, Senator 14 Padavan. Isn't this bill in actuality -- since 15 the city of New York is the municipality 16 involved and they oppose it, isn't this really 17 nothing more than a mandate on local government 18 that is unfunded? 19 SENATOR PADAVAN: It's a mandate, 20 but I don't believe it's unfunded. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Are we giving them 22 the money? 23 SENATOR PADAVAN: We gave them 3421 1 authorization, Senator. It's called "Safe 2 Streets Safe Cities." 3 SENATOR GOLD: Right. Are we 4 giving them the money for this? 5 SENATOR PADAVAN: It's 2.4 6 billion. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Part of that 9 money, if I may answer you fully - 10 SENATOR GOLD: Sure. Of course. 11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Part of those 12 funds earmarked in the "Safe Streets Safe 13 Cities" plan are to go to district attorneys to 14 enhance their capability and capacity to 15 function more effectively within the criminal 16 justice system in the city of New York. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. Will 18 the Senator yield to one more question? 19 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 21 Padavan. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, we gave 23 them the money to do what they want to do. Now 3422 1 we're telling them what to do. Isn't that a 2 mandate unless we fund it? 3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, every 4 pension bill that we deal with in this house 5 historically or any time in the future that goes 6 beyond state pensions for any locality, whether 7 it's correcting someone's oversight or 8 correcting a mistake or whatever, is a mandate 9 on that local government. And in the course of 10 the session, as you know, we deal with scores of 11 that type of legislation. 12 To that extent, it is a mandate, 13 but it's one that falls within our 14 jurisdiction. Local government cannot, even if 15 they wanted to, enact this legislation. The 16 district attorneys whom I feel personally - 17 it's a personal opinion -- support this 18 legislation, although they have not, I repeat, 19 sent a memo. And for that reason, we have to do 20 it if anybody is going to do it. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. On the 22 bill, Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 3423 1 bill. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Padavan, I 3 don't think in all the years I have listened to 4 you that I've ever thought you were more wrong. 5 You say that every pension is a mandate. 6 Senator, that just isn't so. We get requests up 7 here day in and day out where there are 8 negotiated conditions for pension from various 9 groups and municipalities, and they need us to 10 pass the legislation, so we pass it at their 11 request. 12 Senator, I'm getting a little 13 tired of hearing people who have Rs-C or just 14 plain Rs behind their title, indicating their 15 political party, talking about not giving 16 unfunded mandates to localities. And day after 17 day in this chamber, we get one from one of you 18 or another of you. And that's what this is. 19 The city of New York is in 20 financial condition similar to most governments 21 around this country, and they are doing a 22 budget. We say the district attorneys would 23 want it. Well, they haven't asked for it. This 3424 1 is not a D.A.'s bill. Believe me, the district 2 attorneys negotiate with the City and they 3 negotiate with the state very, very well. And 4 there is nobody who respects the D.A.s more than 5 I, but we're taking that negotiation process and 6 we're violating it. 7 There is no memo in support. 8 There is a memo in opposition. They are not 9 involved in this. And, Senator, we know where 10 the bill came from. 11 Now, in the memo from the city of 12 New York, it talks about participants making 13 certain contributions, other groups that have 14 had similar legislation by negotiation or 15 whatever, and there is a way of funding it. And 16 this bill is absolutely a mandate, an unfunded 17 mandate. It's that in Albany, it's that in 18 Syracuse, it's that in New York City. It's an 19 unfunded Republican mandate on the locality. 20 That's what it is. 21 Somebody made the comment that - 22 I think it was you, Senator Padavan, that we 23 want to be generous. We're being generous with 3425 1 other people's money. If you want to be 2 generous with your money, be generous with your 3 money. But it's a lot of nerve to take a 4 locality and tell them that they are going to be 5 generous, and then say that we don't mandate. 6 The $500,000 a year may not be a 7 lot of money, but it's New York City's 500,000. 8 It's not our 500,000. That's the bottom line. 9 If the Republicans in this house want to put up 10 500,000 a year so that the New York City 11 district attorneys can get, quotes, "better 12 people", unquotes, as Senator Padavan is 13 indicating, I tell you that many of us from New 14 York City would be delighted to receive that 15 money. 16 But if you are not giving us the 17 money, just call this what it is. This is a 18 Republican-sponsored, nonfunded mandate on a 19 locality. And we got one day, and each day that 20 they are on the floor we're going to call them 21 and we're going to start making a scrapbook, and 22 then at the end of the session whoever wins the 23 lottery, the last Republican to stand up and 3426 1 talk about how they are against nonfunded local 2 mandates, we'll let you read the scrapbook. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 4 Padavan. 5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Just a matter 6 of information for those who may not be aware of 7 it. This bill is sponsored in the Assembly by 8 16 Democrats from the city of New York. 9 So I would, therefore, take issue 10 with any categorization that it is a Republican, 11 quote, mandate. If it's a mandate -- and it is 12 -- it's a bipartisan mandate for the reasons 13 that I articulated in response to questions from 14 Senator Leichter and others. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 17 Gold. 18 SENATOR GOLD: I said it's a 19 Republican mandate for one reason. We happen to 20 be in a house where the Majority are 21 Republicans, and it's convenient for them to 22 take credit when they want it and not when they 23 don't want it. You participate in, quotes, 3427 1 bipartisan taxes to the extent of $5 billion in 2 two years, and then you say it's always the 3 other house doing it. 4 Senator Padavan, if there were 16 5 Democratic Assemblymen who want to impose a 6 nonfunded mandate on the city of New York, 7 that's their business. I don't think you should 8 touch it, because that's not what I hear out of 9 your party all the time. 10 Now, if you want to touch it and 11 you agree with that as a philosophy then let's 12 start talking about what party owns or doesn't 13 own the protection of local governments 14 throughout this state. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 16 the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 20 the roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 23 the negative on Calendar Number 605 are Senators 3428 1 Daly, Farley, Galiber, Gold and Leichter. Ayes 2 50, nays 5. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 4 bill is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 606, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 2742, 7 an act to amend the Retirement and Social 8 Security Law. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 11 Leichter. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 13 on the bill. 14 I'm going to vote for this bill. 15 This is a general pension extender, and there's 16 a lot of things in there that ought to be 17 extended. 18 But let me just tell you one of 19 the things that is in there which I wish was not 20 in there and which certainly makes the point how 21 this Legislature has added to the cost of 22 localities, has given some pension benefits that 23 are totally wrong. They are unconscionable. 3429 1 This one is the heart bill that goes to police 2 officers -- maybe it's also included in here for 3 firemen -- which has been shown to be such an 4 abuse benefit that we've given, where police 5 officers are entitled to retirement by claiming 6 that there is some heart disease that they have 7 that is deemed to be related to their 8 occupation; and, therefore, they retire without 9 a greater pension. 10 Just last week, Newsday had a 11 series showing some of the abuses. One of them 12 was a police surgeon who was allowed to retire 13 on two-thirds benefit. Not that he was in any 14 fire fight that may have caused some heart 15 strain. He did what my surgeon does. He 16 operates on people. Certainly not a reason to 17 give that person a greater benefit. 18 Nevertheless, he got it. We've had all sorts of 19 numerous cases where police officials who sat 20 behind the desk were entitled to retire by 21 claiming that there was some impairment of their 22 heart. 23 But even those officers who are 3430 1 out there walking the beat and God knows, we owe 2 them so much. But if we're going to give them 3 money, give it to them on a proper, rightful 4 basis. To do it on the basis that there is some 5 stress and strain on their heart which shows up 6 in heart disease is medically unfounded. Study 7 after study has shown that that is not the case, 8 that we don't consider whether the people who 9 have some heart ailment when they retire, 10 whether it's genetic, did it run in their 11 family, were they smokers, did they do other 12 things that may have caused that condition. To 13 attribute by law that there is some relationship 14 between the service of a police officer or the 15 services of a fireman is just wrong. 16 And it's cost the people of this 17 state, because I gather this is a statewide bill 18 -- I know that Senator Cook had a bill that 19 would have given the benefits for volunteer 20 firefighters. But certainly in the city of New 21 York, it's cost millions and millions of 22 dollars. You know, you get up -- particularly 23 those on the other side of the aisle -- and 3431 1 you, at times, talk about how the City squanders 2 its monies, and those of you who come from the 3 City demand that you get better services. Well, 4 one of the reasons the city doesn't have money 5 is because of these pension benefits. 6 I guess I have the reputation 7 here of being a big spender, of being friendly 8 with labor and so on. I'm proud to be friendly 9 with labor, but I think these pensions are just 10 absolutely wrong. They are unjustified. 11 Now, this bill, as I said, has a 12 lot of provisions in there that I think we have 13 to extend, but at least we ought to know that we 14 gave away an awful lot of money without any 15 reason, without any basis. I guess partly it's 16 because we do appreciate the work of police 17 officers, and I guess partly it's because we 18 appreciate the political power of police 19 organizations. It's unfortunate. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 21 Volker. 22 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President. 23 I guess I got to. I normally don't respond to 3432 1 New York City legislation; but, Senator Leichter 2 -- Senator Leichter, you know, I have listened 3 to this dissertation on pensions, and I have to 4 kind of chuckle a little bit. 5 Senator, New York City police 6 officers are probably -- not probably -- have 7 without question one of the most dangerous jobs 8 in the world. The rate over the years of police 9 officers in this country killed or injured, New 10 York City has been at the top or near the top 11 for years. Now, thankfully, that has declined 12 somewhat. It's Los Angeles. Actually, the 13 numbers haven't declined. It's just that Los 14 Angeles has now taken over as the capital city 15 of maimings and killings and so forth. 16 The reason they're not at the top 17 of the list is because they have so many people, 18 so they do it on a per capita basis. But on an 19 actual base, they have really taken over the 20 market, so to speak. 21 But, Senator, I always am amazed 22 when I listen to these protestations about 23 spending in the city of New York. Senator, I 3433 1 will guarantee you that I will take one program 2 that the city of New York puts on every year, 3 and it will more than pay for all of the 4 pensions for the city police and firemen in the 5 city of New York. I will guarantee you that 6 each year, whatever mayor it is, offers up a new 7 program that's going to save the city of New 8 York and then comes back and says it's terrible 9 that we are forced to pay our police and firemen 10 these outrageous pensions and if we could just 11 somehow save that money. 12 But keep in mind, Senator, we 13 don't negotiate pensions for the city of New 14 York, and we don't negotiate pay. They do it 15 themselves, and they are the first ones to brag 16 about the police and firemen in the city of New 17 York and then oftentimes complain about what it 18 costs. 19 Senator, it ain't cheap to 20 protect the city of New York as policemen or 21 firemen. It isn't cheap at all, and I know you 22 understand that, Senator. But I'm only going to 23 tell you that one of the things I think that 3434 1 really aggravates me about some of the things 2 that I hear out of the city is that I know they 3 appreciate the actions of police and firemen, 4 but sometimes I wonder if they realize that 5 there is a price to be paid, and that price to 6 be paid is that they have to have adequate and 7 decent pensions for those people because 8 certainly they aren't paid enough to justify 9 those people being on the streets of New York. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 11 Leichter. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 13 Volker, don't do that. Don't do that. What you 14 did was wrong. Because you gave the impression 15 that in some respect I was unwilling to 16 recognize the work that police officers did or 17 was unwilling to see that they are paid or 18 unwilling to give them an adequate pension. 19 That was not my argument. You want to give them 20 a larger pension? That's fine, put it up 21 front. You want to give them more pay? Put it 22 up front. But don't do it through a phony 23 argument that in some respects these people 3435 1 suffer strain on their heart which results in 2 heart ailments. 3 That's my argument. My argument 4 is that that is medically unfounded. I didn't 5 say that they shouldn't get good pensions, and I 6 didn't say they shouldn't get good pay. I'm 7 saying that we shouldn't do it where the 8 Legislature makes a medical judgment that all 9 medical experts say is nonsense and that we have 10 seen abused. 11 And let me ask you. You have 12 risen, so I will ask you. Do you think a police 13 surgeon should be allowed to retire on a greater 14 pension claiming that he has heart disorder 15 because of the work that he did as a surgeon? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 17 Volker, do you yield to this question? 18 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 19 sure I yield. Senator, I'm not aware that a 20 police surgeon did that. That may be true. 21 But Senator, I'm going to 22 respond by saying to you there is ample 23 evidence. One of the things that really 3436 1 aggravates me, Senator, is there is ample 2 evidence that law enforcement officers have a 3 far higher rate, heart rate. It's the New York 4 Times editorial board that doesn't want to 5 believe some of the doctors who say they have a 6 much higher heart rate and didn't give a damn 7 sometimes, I think, about some of the medical 8 evidence that says those people do have a much 9 higher rate. 10 And Senator, there is ample 11 evidence over the years that police officers do 12 have a far higher rate and that, in fact, in 13 some ways it may save the city of New York money 14 not to have to go through the litigation 15 involved in trying to redetermine some of the 16 heart cases that they have in the police 17 department and the fire department. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 19 President. Let me just point out - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 21 Leichter. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- Senator 23 Volker, that the leading heart experts, and I 3437 1 studied the documentation on this. The leading 2 heart experts, Dr. Dudley from Texas and so on, 3 say there is absolutely no proof that the work 4 of a police officer or, for that matter, the 5 work of a fireman, which I guess physically is 6 much more strenuous, will cause heart ailments, 7 and you can't show me one credible medical 8 report that shows that's the case. 9 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 11 Volker. 12 SENATOR VOLKER: Will Senator 13 Leichter yield to a question? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 15 Leichter, will you yield? 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 17 SENATOR VOLKER: Who was Dr. 18 Dudley hired by? 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: I don't know. 20 SENATOR VOLKER: Wasn't he hired 21 by the Conference of Mayors, the city of New 22 York, to make a determination on heart 23 ailments? 3438 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 2 don't know if that's the case or not. He is a 3 very respected doctor. Experts usually get paid 4 for giving expert advice, but I don't think that 5 means that their findings are wrong or should be 6 disbelieved, and I assume that the medical 7 report that you are going to bring forth was 8 paid for by the PBA. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 10 the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 14 the roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 18 bill is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 607, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 3511, 21 Retirement and Social Security Law. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 23 the last section. 3439 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 4 the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 8 bill is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 614, by Senator Wright, Senate Bill Number 4108, 11 State Administrative Procedure Act. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 14 Leichter asked for an explanation. 15 Senator Wright. 16 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President. 17 The act would amend the State Administrative 18 Procedure Act to change an optional publication 19 of a regulatory agenda to a mandatory 20 publication requirement for six state agencies, 21 the six largest, most frequent producers of 22 regulations or revisions thereto. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Will Senator 3440 1 Wright yield to a question, please? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 3 Wright, would you yield to Senator Leichter? 4 SENATOR WRIGHT: I will, Mr. 5 President. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, my 7 notes on this bill show that a similar bill that 8 we passed last year was vetoed by the Governor. 9 SENATOR WRIGHT: That is correct, 10 Senator. It is not reflected in the memorandum 11 of support. That is inadvertently deleted in 12 its preparation. But, in fact, it did pass both 13 houses and was rejected by the Governor. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Is this the 15 identical bill that was vetoed by the Governor? 16 SENATOR WRIGHT: Yes, it is. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Do you know 18 what the Governor's objection was to the bill 19 that we passed last year? 20 SENATOR WRIGHT: In his message, 21 the Governor related that he felt that it was 22 overly burdensome to the agencies involved to 23 prepare the regulatory agendas. I, in turn, 3441 1 don't share that feeling that it's burdensome to 2 those agencies but, in fact, feel that the 3 burden is being placed upon the small businesses 4 and local governments being adversely affected 5 by the regulations; and, therefore, we need to 6 provide greater public information and vehicle 7 for participation. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Good. I agree 9 with you. 10 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 12 the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 16 the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 20 bill is passed. 21 Senator Present, that is it. 22 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 23 there being no further business, I move we 3442 1 adjourn until tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senate 3 will stand adjourned until tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. 4 (Whereupon, at 4:22 p.m., the 5 Senate adjourned. )