Tuesday, March 15, 1994

1244 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Albany, New York 10 March 15, 1994 11 3:26 p.m. 12 13 14 15 REGULAR SESSION 16 17 18 SENATOR NICHOLAS A. Spano, Acting President 19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 20 21 22 23 1245 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The 3 Senate will come to order. All please rise for 4 the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. 5 (The assemblage repeated the 6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. ) 7 In the absence of clergy, may we 8 please bow our heads in a moment of silence. 9 (A moment of silence was 10 observed. ) 11 Reading of the Journal. 12 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 13 Monday, March 14th. The Senate met pursuant to 14 adjournment, Senator Spano in the Chair upon 15 designation of the Temporary President. Prayer 16 by Rabbi David Niederman of the United Jewish 17 Organizations of Williamsburg, Brooklyn. The 18 Journal of Friday, March 11th, was read and 19 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Hearing 21 no objection, the Journal stands approved as 22 read. 23 Presentation of petitions. 1246 1 Messages from the Assembly. 2 The Governor. 3 Reports of standing committees. 4 Motions and resolutions. Senator 5 Farley. 6 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr. 7 President. On behalf of Senator Stafford, I 8 have a motion to reconsider, substitute and 9 amend here. 10 Mr. President, I wish to call up 11 Calendar 222, Senate Print 8651. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 13 Secretary will read the title. Secretary will 14 read. 15 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 16 Stafford, Senate Bill 8651, an act to amend the 17 Public Finance Law and the Public Authorities 18 Law. 19 SENATOR FARLEY: I now move to 20 reconsider the vote by which this Assembly bill 21 was substituted for Senator Stafford's bill, 22 Senate Print 6001 on March 8th. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 1247 1 roll on reconsideration. 2 (The Secretary called the roll on 3 reconsideration. ) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Bill is 6 before the house. 7 SENATOR FARLEY: And I now move 8 that the Assembly Bill 8651 be recommitted to 9 the Committee on Finance and Senator Stafford's 10 bill, Senate bill, be restored to the order of 11 the Third Reading Calendar. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: So 13 ordered. 14 SENATOR FARLEY: And I now offer 15 the following amendments. This is -- that was a 16 long, complicated motion. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: It was a 18 long story, you might say. Senator Farley. 19 SENATOR FARLEY: This one is more 20 simple. On behalf of Senator Kuhl on page - 21 nothing personal, but on page 15, I offer the 22 following amendments to Calendar Number 331, 23 Senate Print Number 3718, and I ask that that 1248 1 bill retain its place. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 3 Amendments received and adopted. 4 Senator Cook. 5 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, I 6 move the following bills be discharged from 7 their respective committees and be recommitted 8 with instructions to strike the enacting clause: 9 Bills Number 5757, 5864, 6045, 6938. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: So 11 ordered. 12 Senator Saland. 13 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President, 14 I'd like to star Calendar Number 324, Senate 15 Print 943. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Without 17 objection. 18 Any other motions, resolutions? 19 Senator Present. 20 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 21 I move that we adopt the Resolution Calendar, 22 copies of which are on our desks. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Question 1249 1 is on the adoption of the Resolution Calendar. 2 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 3 (Response of "Aye.") 4 Opposed nay. 5 (There was no response. ) 6 The Resolution Calendar is 7 adopted. 8 Senator Present. 9 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 10 is there a report from the Finance Committee at 11 the desk? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Yes, 13 there is. 14 SENATOR PRESENT: May we have it 15 read, please. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 17 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 18 following nominations: 19 Member of the Small Business 20 Advisory Board: Lynda Ireland, of Hempstead; 21 Kathryn O'Donnell, of Tonawanda; Edward J. 22 Panarello, of Larchmont, and Clarence A. Price 23 of Harpursville; 1250 1 Member of the Port of Oswego 2 Authority: Mary Catherine Landrigan, of Oswego; 3 Victor S. Oakes, of Oswego; Celia A. Sgroi, 4 Ph.D., of Oswego, and James K. Thompson, of 5 Oswego; 6 Member of the Advisory Council on 7 Agriculture: Edwin D. Fessenden, of Kings 8 Ferry; Janice S. Handy, of Fort Plain; Susan 9 Machamer, of Holley; 10 Member of the Advisory Board on 11 Public Work: Ross J. Pepe, of New City; 12 Member of the Mental Health 13 Services Council: Miguel Vilaro, M.D., of 14 Brooklyn; 15 Member of the St. Lawrence 16 Easterm Ontario Commission: Donald I. Turcotte, 17 of Clayton; 18 Member of the New York State Park 19 Recreation and Historic Preservation Commission: 20 Percy E. Patrick, Jr., of Fulton; 21 Member of the Finger Lakes State 22 Park Recreation and Historic Preservation 23 Commission: Clement N. Granoff, of Elmira; 1251 1 Member of the Taconic State Park, 2 Recreation and Historic Preservation Commission: 3 Mary Kay Vrba of Fishkill; 4 Member of the Thousand Islands 5 State Park, Recreation and Historic Preservation 6 Commission: Bruce E. Dempster, of Watertown; 7 Member of the State Health 8 Research Council: Dr. Lawrence S. Sturman, of 9 Albany; 10 Member of the Council on Human 11 Blood and Transfusion Services: Thomas D. 12 Harrington, of Fishkill; 13 Member of the Board of Visitors 14 of the Bronx Psychiatric Center: Sylvia 15 Hershkowitz-Lask, of the Bronx; 16 Member of the Board of Visitors 17 of the Elmira Psychiatric Center: Marion S. 18 Lagonegro, of Elmira; 19 Member of the Board of Visitors 20 of the Kirby Forensic Psychiatric Center: 21 Mildred N. Fine, of Valley Stream; 22 Member of the Board of Visitors 23 of Mohawk Valley Psychiatric Center: Dennis J. 1252 1 Manning, of New Hartford and Mary Skorulski, of 2 New Hartford; 3 Member of the Board of Visitors 4 of Pilgrim Psychiatric Center: Manoj R. Shah, 5 M.D., of Merrick; 6 Member of the Board of Visitors 7 of the Queens Children's Psychiatric Center: 8 Mary J. Holowin, of Rego Park; 9 Member of the Board of Visitors 10 of the Rochester Psychiatric Center: Hilda E. 11 Escher of Rochester, and Edward Edward J. 12 Sardisco, of Rochester; 13 Member of the Board of Visitors 14 of St. Lawrence Psychiatric Center: Patrick R. 15 Rourk, of Norwood; 16 Member of the Board of Visitors 17 of the Broome Developmental Disabilities 18 Services Office: John E. Denny, Ph.D., of 19 Maryland, and Mary C. Weidman, of Oxford; 20 Member of the Board of Visitors 21 of the J. N. Adam Developmental Disabilities 22 Services Office: Mitchell R. Burkowsky, Ph.D., 23 of Fredonia, and Carol Bainbridge Gaiser, of 1253 1 Jamestown; 2 Member of the Board of Visitors 3 of the Staten Island Developmental Disabilities 4 Services Office: Reverend Monsignor John T. 5 Servodidio, of Staten Island; 6 Member of the Board of Visitors 7 of the West Seneca Developmental Center: Maria 8 Cruz-Torres, of Buffalo; Therese Mudd, of 9 Lewiston, and Jessie B. Wells, of Buffalo; 10 Member of the Board of Visitors 11 of the Wilton Developmental Center: Sharon 12 Brooks, of Fort Johnson, and Robert F. Schulz, 13 of Johnstown; 14 Member of the Board of Visitors 15 of the New York State Home for Veterans and 16 Their Dependents at Oxford: Beverly P. Gardiner, 17 of Amsterdam. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Question 19 is on the confirmation of the aforementioned 20 nominees. All those in favor signify by saying 21 aye. 22 (Response of "Aye.") 23 Opposed nay. 1254 1 (There was no response. ) 2 The nominees are confirmed. 3 Senator Present. 4 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 5 I believe Senator Tully has a privileged 6 resolution at the desk. May we take that up and 7 pass it at this time. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 9 Secretary will read the title of the resolution. 10 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 11 resolution, by Senator Tully, commending the 12 Elmont Memorial High School upon the occasion of 13 being named the best high school in New York 14 State in REDBOOK magazine's third annual 15 "America's Best Schools" project. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: On the 17 resolution, all those in a favor signify by 18 saying aye. 19 (Response of "Aye.") 20 Opposed nay. 21 (There was no response. ) 22 The resolution is adopted. 23 Senator Present. 1255 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 2 I believe Senator Volker has a privileged 3 resolution at the desk. May we take that up. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 5 Secretary will read. 6 SENATOR PRESENT: Senator 7 Stafford. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 9 Secretary will read the title of the resolution. 10 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 11 Resolution, by Senator Stafford, commemorating 12 the 75th anniversary of the Hudson Falls 13 American Legion Post Number 574, to be 14 celebrated at a testimonial dinner March 19th, 15 1994. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: On the 17 resolution, all those in favor signify by saying 18 aye. 19 (Response of "Aye.") 20 Opposed nay. 21 (There was no response. ) 22 The resolution is adopted. 23 Senator Present. 1256 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you 2 recognize Senator Larkin, please. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 4 Larkin. 5 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 6 on Resolution Number 2864, I'd like to open it 7 up for anyone who would like to be -- this 8 resolution is asking the Governor to proclaim 9 April the 8th, 1994 in New York State as a day 10 of remembrance to the victims of the Holocaust, 11 and to pay special tribute to the people of 12 Denmark for their efforts to rescue Danish Jews. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The 14 resolution will remain open at the desk for all 15 members to sponsor. 16 Senator Nozzolio. 17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr. 18 President. I ask permission to star a bill, 19 Calendar Number 327. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Calendar 21 327 is starred at the request of the sponsor. 22 Senator Present, we're ready to 23 begin the calendar. 1257 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Let's take the 2 non-controversial calendar up, please. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 4 Secretary will read. 5 THE SECRETARY: On page 8, 6 Calendar Number 13, by Senator Levy, Senate - 7 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 8 for the day, please. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Laid 10 aside for the day. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 40, by Senator Bruno, Senate Bill Number 6300-B, 13 an act to amend the Highway Law. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 15 last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 23 is passed. 1258 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 88, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 191. 3 SENATOR ONORATO: Lay aside. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Laid 5 aside. 6 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay aside for 7 the day. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Laid 9 aside for the day. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 134, by member of the Assembly Ortloff, Assembly 12 Bill Number 4490-C, an act to amend the County 13 Law. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 15 last section. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on a second. 17 All right. May we have a brief explanation? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay 19 Calendar Number 134 aside. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 141, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number 22 6318, an act to amend the Town Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Home 1259 1 rule message is at the desk. Read the last 2 section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 10 is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 236, by Senator Maltese, Senate Bill Number 13 1053-B, an act to amend the Real Property Tax 14 Law, in relation to an optional school tax 15 exemption. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 17 last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 1260 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 2 is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 242, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 6390, 5 an act to amend the Public Officers Law. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 7 last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 15 is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 261, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 4583-B, 18 an act to amend the Real - 19 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 20 please. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Laid 22 aside. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 1261 1 263, by Senator Padavan, Senate - 2 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Laid 4 aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 265, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 1707, 7 in relation to requiring the Department of Motor 8 Vehicles to compile information on driving while 9 under the influence of drugs. 10 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay aside, 11 please. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Laid 13 aside for the day. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 279, by Senator Wright, Senate Bill Number 5944, 16 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 18 last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 1262 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 280, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 6 6602-A, authorizing the assessor of the county 7 of Nassau to grant an exemption. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 9 last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 281, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 6691, 20 establish a public library district in the town 21 of Esopus, Ulster County. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 23 last section. 1263 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 8 is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 293, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 184, 11 Criminal Procedure Law. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 13 last section. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, please. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay 16 aside. 17 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 18 for the day, please. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay 293 20 aside for the day. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 311, by Senator Johnson. 23 SENATOR JOHNSON: Lay aside for 1264 1 the day. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Laid 3 aside for the day. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 312, by Senator Spano, Senate Bill Number 6 1642-A, Workers' Compensation Law. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 8 last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 313, by Senator Spano, Senate Bill Number 4760 19 A, an act to amend the Workers' Compensation 20 Law. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 22 last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 1265 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 3 roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50, nays 6 one, Senator DeFrancisco recorded in the 7 negative. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 315, by Senator Farley, Senate Bill Number 718, 12 authorize state aid to the town of Hadley, 13 Saratoga County. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Local 15 fiscal impact note is at the desk. Read the 16 last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 1266 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 -- Calendar Number 316, by Senator Libous, 4 Senate Bill Number 1361, an act to amend the 5 Vehicle and Traffic Law. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 7 last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 15 is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 317, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 18 1985-A, an act to amend the Executive Law. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 20 last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 1267 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 318, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 2094, 8 an act to amend the Executive Law, in relation 9 to making technical corrections. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 11 last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 19 is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 319, by Senator Goodman, Senate Bill Number 22 2654, an act to amount the Vehicle and Traffic 23 Law. 1268 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 2 last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51, nays 9 one, Senator DeFrancisco recorded in the 10 negative. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 12 is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 320, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 5487-B, 15 an act in relation to authorizing a review of 16 current drug-impaired driving education. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 18 last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 1269 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52, nays 2 one, Senator -- ayes 51, nays two, Senators Daly 3 and DeFrancisco recorded in the negative. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 321, by member of the Assembly Feldman, Assembly 8 Bill Number 61, an act to amend the Vehicle and 9 Traffic Law. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 11 last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 19 is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 322, by Senator Rath, Senate Bill Number 6676, 22 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 23 relation to fees for certification as motor 1270 1 vehicle inspector. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 3 last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 SENATOR GOLD: Party vote; party 10 vote in the affirmative. 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 13 is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 323, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 6735, 16 Transportation Law, in relation to the painting 17 of school bus bumpers. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 19 last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 23 roll. 1271 1 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 4 is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 326, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, 7 Assembly Bill Number 8056, Education Law, in 8 relation to absentee ballots for retired 9 persons. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 11 last section. 12 Did you have a question on this 13 bill, Senator Pataki? 14 SENATOR PATAKI: No, the prior 15 one. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 17 last section on 326. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: The bill is 1272 1 passed. 2 Senator Pataki. 3 SENATOR PATAKI: Was Calendar 4 Number 324 passed, 324? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 6 Starred. 7 SENATOR PATAKI: Starred, thank 8 you. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: That 10 bill was starred, Senator Pataki. 11 Senator Daly. 12 SENATOR DALY: Will you 13 reconsider the vote by which 323 passed. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 323, the 15 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration. 16 (The Secretary called the roll on 17 reconsideration. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Bill is 20 before the house. Lay it aside. 21 SENATOR DALY: Call the vote - 22 I'm not laying it aside. I just wanted to call 23 my vote, please, change my vote. 1273 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: O.K. On 2 Calendar Number 323, the Secretary will read the 3 last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52, nays 2, 10 Senators Daly and Holland recorded in the 11 negative. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 13 is passed again. 14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 16 Holland. 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: With unanimous 18 consent, could I be recorded in the negative on 19 Calendar Number 319? 20 SENATOR GOLD: Without objection. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 319, 22 without objection. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 1274 1 330, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 2 880-B, an act to amend the Correction Law and 3 the Insurance Law. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 5 last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 13 is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 332, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 4156, 16 authorizing the Commissioner of General Services 17 to sell and convey certain lands to the town of 18 Ulster. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 20 last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 1275 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 335, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 6698, 8 an act to amend the state law. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 10 last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 18 is passed. 19 Senator Present. 20 SENATOR PRESENT: Controversial 21 calendar. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 23 Secretary will read controversial calendar. 1276 1 THE SECRETARY: On page 8, 2 Calendar Number 134, by member of the Assembly 3 Ortloff, Assembly Bill Number 4490-C, an act to 4 amend the County Law. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Last section. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 7 last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 15 is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 261, by Senator Daly. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senate Bill 20 Number 4583-B, an act to amend the Real Property 21 Law. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 23 Daly. 1277 1 SENATOR DALY: Yes, Mr. 2 President. 3 This bill creates an advisory 4 board for the Secretary of State to assist her 5 in the matters of real estate. It creates a 6 board of 15 members, one of whom will be the 7 Secretary of State. The other 14 members are 8 eight that will be appointed by the Governor. 9 Three -- I'm sorry, two appointed by the 10 Majority Leader of the Senate and the Speaker of 11 the Assembly, and one each by the Minority 12 Leader of the Senate and the Minority Leader in 13 the Assembly. 14 This bill last year passed, I 15 should say has been significantly amended over 16 last year's version, and I do believe that the 17 bill now should meet the objections of this 18 house. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 20 Gold. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Mr. 22 President, will Senator Daly yield to a 23 question? 1278 1 SENATOR DALY: Certainly. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 3 yields. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, have you 5 seen the letter from the New York State Consumer 6 Protection Board that is dated June 22nd, and 7 they say that they have opposition and also on 8 the "B" print? 9 SENATOR DALY: But that is on the 10 original bill, the unamended version. You'll 11 notice that there is a "B". 12 SENATOR GOLD: No, it also says, 13 "we also oppose a proposed 'B' version." 14 SENATOR DALY: No, I have not 15 seen that. I have not seen that opposition 16 memo. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, the 18 only question I have is, unless there's any 19 urgency, perhaps we could give you a copy of 20 this and lay it over one day and you can - 21 SENATOR DALY: I don't think 22 that's necessary, Mr. President. I've studied 23 this bill pretty thoroughly, and I've also seen 1279 1 other letters and memos in opposition and I, 2 very frankly, feel that this bill is a good 3 bill. Let me speak, if I may, speak a little 4 further on the bill and perhaps convince my 5 colleague that it is good legislation. 6 As I said, what we have done or 7 what we are trying to do, Mr. President, is to 8 give to the Secretary of State's office some 9 expertise in the area of real estate. As we all 10 know, how one works affects everything, and as 11 we all feel, that since the promulgation and the 12 administration of real estate laws generally 13 comes under the Secretary of State's office, in 14 many cases that she should have a functioning 15 board made up partially of members of the real 16 estate industry, but with a majority of the 17 members being consumer oriented, non-members of 18 the real estate industry. 19 We do this, Mr. President, by 20 allowing the Governor, again, eight appoint 21 ments, three of whom can be from the real estate 22 industry; the Majority Leader, as I said, has 23 two, one of whom will be from the real estate 1280 1 industry; the Speaker the same and then the 2 Minority Leader of the Senate and -- the 3 Minority Leaders of both the Senate and the 4 Assembly will make one appointment and it's at 5 their discretion whom they appoint, so you would 6 have a maximum of five members on this advisory 7 board -- sorry, a minimum of five members of the 8 advisory word from the real estate industry 9 which is five out of 15 on the board, a maximum 10 of seven, which is still one less than half of 11 the members of the board. 12 We modeled this after the banking 13 board. In fact, we have more than -- we have 14 more members on the board who are not of that 15 industry than the banking -- than the bank 16 advisory committee has. 17 Very frankly, Mr. President, in 18 law already, if you check Section 442 (j) of the 19 Real Property Law, the Secretary of State 20 already has the authority to establish a com 21 mission, advisory commission of seven members, 22 all from the real estate industry. The 23 Secretary of State has not seen fit to do that 1281 1 and so we feel that really, she is -- this 2 committee or this advisory commission should be 3 established. 4 We believe that the state will 5 gain from the expertise given to the study of 6 the real estate industry that is necessitated by 7 the responsibilities of the Secretary of State. 8 We also have given certain powers -- I'm sorry, 9 we have not taken away from the Secretary of 10 State some powers that we feel should be solely 11 under her jurisdiction, and in the series of 12 amendments, or I should say the amendments that 13 we have made to the bill which I am -- I, 14 hopefully, will find in my desk but thus far I 15 have not -- we list those, the six specific 16 responsibilities which, again, will not come 17 under the jurisdiction or the domain of the 18 advisory committee. They will continue to - 19 they will continue to be solely -- solely under 20 the administration of the Secretary of State. 21 I'm speaking specifically of some 22 of the problems in listing that have occurred 23 down particularly in the New York City area. We 1282 1 do not give that, the administration of that or 2 the implementation or promulgation of rules to 3 the new commission. We continue to give that 4 solely to the Secretary of State. That was one 5 of the objections people had to the bill last 6 year. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 8 Gold. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, Mr. 10 President. 11 There is a memorandum from the 12 Department of State in opposition to the 13 legislation and it was filed last year on the 14 "A" print, and I'm informed by our counsel that 15 they contacted the Department and they are still 16 opposed to the "B" print. 17 The Department filed a fact sheet 18 last year as to a number of states which have 19 these boards; apparently they are underwhelmed 20 by the concept. For example, in Ohio they point 21 out that all -- and they have the word "all" 22 underlined -- decisions made by the real estate 23 board favor the real estate industry and there 1283 1 are questions in their mind as to whether or not 2 this board will do anything more than be a 3 service to the real estate industry. 4 I would make the point that, 5 while I believe the "B" print, Senator Daly, 6 gives the Governor eight people -- appointments 7 -- out of the 14 and theoretically gives the 8 Governor the majority, I would imagine that, if 9 the Governor's Department of State is this much 10 opposed to it, that there is very little chance 11 that the Governor would sign it, even though it 12 has a majority -- he has the majority of the 13 appointments. 14 I would also point out that there 15 is opposition by the Department of Consumer 16 Protection. Again, I don't know how realistic 17 this bill becomes when we have that kind of 18 opposition from two heads of two agencies in the 19 department. 20 But let me say this, Senator 21 Daly. I can understand you wanting to proceed 22 with the bill, and I respect that. You are 23 certainly a person who gives the greatest amount 1284 1 of courtesy and you have a right to proceed. 2 The only thing I can do in rebuttal, I think, 3 Senator Daly, is to read the rather short 4 letter, and encourage you to interrupt me 5 whenever you want, if there is a response to 6 something that is said in the letter that you 7 think is incorrect. 8 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 10 Daly. 11 SENATOR DALY: The letter is from 12 whom? 13 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, I -- and 14 it's short. It's not a filibuster, Senator. 15 The letter is from the state Consumer Protection 16 Board and, as I say, I would like to - 17 SENATOR DALY: May I, Mr. 18 President -- may I just make one comment? I'd be 19 delighted to hear the letter. Isn't it 20 interesting, in response to the bill I've 21 carried now for a year, I've received no memo or 22 letters in opposition from the Consumer 23 Protection Board. I've received no letters of 1285 1 opposition this year from the Secretary of 2 State. The only letter, the only memo in 3 opposition I have is from NYPIRG. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator 5 Daly, as I say to you, you're a gentleman, 6 you've extended courtesy to me, and I try to 7 give it. That's why I said to you, the memo 8 that we have from the Secretary of State is from 9 last year, but we -- and I made that clear. We 10 did call them and they say that, as far as 11 they're concerned, use the memo, they continue 12 their opposition to the theory. 13 Now, this says -- and by the way, 14 this letter, while last year's letter does refer 15 to the "B" print, that's why I think it's 16 relevant. 17 The Consumer Protection Board 18 strongly opposes the bill which would estab 19 lish... real estate board within the Department 20 of State with oversight authority over the 21 activities of licensed real estate brokers. We 22 also oppose the proposed "B" version of this 23 bill now being circulated, under which the board 1286 1 would be provided the authority to promulgate 2 regulations to effectuate the purposes of 3 Article 12-a, the state statute regulating real 4 estate brokers, to prescribe the subjects to be 5 tested in licensing examinations and to make 6 recommendations to the Secretary of State as to 7 the validity of all real estate brokerage 8 enforcement proceedings under Section 442 (e) of 9 the Real Property Law. 10 The creation of this board, which 11 would consist of eight licensed real estate 12 brokers, six public members and the Secretary of 13 State, would unnecessarily impede the adminis 14 tration of Article 12-a. 15 Now, is that - 16 SENATOR DALY: Excuse me, Mr. 17 President. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Is that paragraph 19 accurate? 20 SENATOR DALY: No. Would the 21 Senator read that last sentence, please. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, be glad to, 23 Senator. This says: The creation that it 1287 1 envisions is eight licensed real estate 2 brokers.... 3 SENATOR DALY: That is not 4 correct. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Excuse me. Excuse 6 me... six public members and the Secretary of 7 State. 8 SENATOR DALY: That is not 9 correct. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Now, the balance 11 under your bill is what? 12 SENATOR DALY: The balance, the 13 maximum seven from the industry, minimum five. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Maximum is seven. 15 SENATOR DALY: Maximum of seven, 16 total board is 15, including the Secretary of 17 State, so those figures are incorrect. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. 19 SENATOR DALY: We do give a 20 balance of power, as you say, we give the 21 balance to the non-members of the industry in 22 this bill. 23 SENATOR GOLD: All right. So it 1288 1 would be seven, seven and one, is that it? 2 SENATOR DALY: Seven and eight. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Now, it goes so. 4 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, may 5 I correct -- it could well be five and ten. 6 SENATOR GOLD: I understand. 7 SENATOR DALY: And I submit, Mr. 8 President, the fact that they didn't even have 9 the right -- they didn't have the right figures 10 in that letter clearly makes their letter 11 questionable indeed. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 13 Gold. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Senator 15 Daly, it's my practice to -- to want to have 16 open files to everybody, and that's why I 17 offered you the letter. 18 SENATOR DALY: Much appreciated. 19 SENATOR GOLD: But the point is, 20 if they're opposed to it, I want to make it 21 available to you and give you this opportunity. 22 Under the recommendation *** the state of New 23 York would become a recognized leader in the 1289 1 regulation of the real estate industry. For 2 example, through the Department's efforts *** 3 reform legislation was enacted in 1991 which 4 addressed industry abuses concerning proper 5 disclosure of agency relationships by brokers 6 and agents. 7 SENATOR DALY: May I comment on 8 that? 9 SENATOR GOLD: Of course, I don't 10 mind you - 11 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, the 12 Senator said I could interrupt him or I 13 certainly wouldn't do it otherwise. 14 SENATOR GOLD: That's all right. 15 SENATOR DALY: That disclosure 16 bill talked about 1991 was a product of the 17 Senate, was a result of two years negotiation 18 with the Senate. I was chairman and I handled 19 that bill also; in fact, I sponsored that bill, 20 Mr. President, and we did negotiate that bill 21 and that's why the bill is being commended by so 22 many people as one of the best disclosure laws 23 in the country, and the original proposal that 1290 1 we had to work with was -- has been or was at 2 that time roundly condemned. 3 So I do believe that that use of 4 that law as an example of the work of the 5 Secretary of State leaves something out and that 6 is the work of this house and, frankly, my 7 committee, Senator Waldon, as, frankly, a 8 minority member. I'm very proud of that bill, 9 that law, Mr. President, by the way, and again I 10 think that adds to the ammunition I have here in 11 defense of this bill. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 13 Gold. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Well, let's be 15 honest. The biggest ammunition you got is 16 Runes. You got a guy with a brain over there. 17 SENATOR DALY: I'm moving him to 18 the back. 19 SENATOR GOLD: No, no, I admire 20 Mr. Runes. Mr. President, the -- I don't think 21 there's any indication here that credit is not 22 due to the Legislature. Whenever there's a law 23 obviously we participate. I just think that 1291 1 they're making the point that they have done 2 some things that are responsive and, in all 3 fairness, if they recommend it to the Governor 4 and work with you and this became a law, I don't 5 think we should ignore that. 6 At any rate, the Department has 7 also continuously fought to protect the rights 8 of consumers in such transactions by vigorously 9 enforcing state law against brokers engaged in 10 illegal and unethical business practices. 11 SENATOR DALY: That signed by 12 Gail Shaffer, Mr. President? 13 SENATOR GOLD: Pardon me? 14 SENATOR DALY: That signed by 15 Gail Shaffer? 16 SENATOR GOLD: No, no, this is 17 from the Consumer Protection Board. Yeah. 18 The Board also believes that 19 circumventing the Department's regulatory 20 authority by the establishment of a board acting 21 under the substantial control and influence - 22 now, here again, you say that the voting is 7-7 23 -- would seriously erode the present protection 1292 1 afforded consumers. The memorandum in support 2 provided no justification for why the board is 3 needed in addition to the present board's 4 construction. 5 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, I 6 do not say the present balance on this bill 7 gives you a 7-7 vote. I say this bill gives you 8 a maximum 7, maximum 7 from the industry and 8 9 outside the industry, so I want to correct that 10 immediately. We are making sure that the 11 balance of power on this commission lies not in 12 the members of the industry but other members of 13 the board. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Now the 15 last paragraph, if I may. Further, the bill is 16 not workable and technically deficient in 17 numerous ways. For example, section 442 (k) 4 18 would require the board to review complaints 19 made to the Secretary of State in any 20 enforcement proceedings under section 442 (e) of 21 the Real Property Law and empower the board to 22 make recommendations as to the validity of the 23 complaint. 1293 1 It says, since the board would be 2 a totally voluntary entity without staff, the 3 procedure would unnecessarily delay the 4 Department's complaint procedures. Further 5 proposed subdivision 442 (k) 6 of the Real 6 Property Law will permit the real estate board 7 to fix all fees required by this section, but no 8 such fees are established by this section. 9 Even if we were not opposed to 10 the basic premise of the bill, numerous 11 technical deficiencies would need to be 12 addressed before the bill could be given serious 13 consideration by the Legislature. 14 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, on 15 the last -- the last paragraph, you know, the 16 question is saying, I should say the writer is 17 stating that there are technical deficiencies in 18 the bill which he doesn't list but, first, Mr. 19 President, the fact that they didn't even know 20 the number of people who are appointed to the 21 board, from where they come, clearly proves that 22 they didn't do their home work, Mr. President. 23 SENATOR GOLD: No. 1294 1 SENATOR DALY: Or they - 2 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Daly. 3 SENATOR DALY: They were talking 4 about another bill. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Daly, Mr. 6 President, I want to be fair. I told you this 7 was dated June of '93, and they talked about a 8 proposed "B" version that they thought they 9 saw. Now, I made that clear, Senator Daly. 10 Now - 11 SENATOR DALY: Well, Mr. 12 President. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Now, excuse me, 14 and then I'll - 15 SENATOR DALY: Excuse me. 16 SENATOR GOLD: As to the number 17 from the board, or not the board, you clarified 18 that, and I respect that, but now this whole 19 last paragraph has nothing to do with the 20 numbers. The last paragraph I read dealt with 21 the complaint process. 22 Now, if that is not accurately 23 reflecting your bill, then I'd appreciate it if 1295 1 you'd correct me on that, but if you want me to 2 reread it, this has nothing to do now with the 3 number of members on the board. It says that 4 under the enforcement procedure the board is 5 empowered to make recommendations as to the 6 validity of the complaints. Is that accurate or 7 not? 8 SENATOR DALY: Well, Mr. 9 President, I don't -- what line of the bill are 10 you talking about, Senator? 11 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, 12 again, it's only a few lines. Let me read it 13 and, as I say, I have certainly no objection to 14 your counsel working with you as we all have. 15 And further this bill is 16 unworkable and technically deficient in numerous 17 ways. For example, proposed subdivision 442 (k) 18 4 would require the board to review complaints 19 made to the Secretary of State in any 20 enforcement proceeding under section 442 (e) of 21 the Real Property Law and empower the board to 22 make recommendations as to the validity of the 23 complaint. 1296 1 SENATOR DALY: That's not section 2 4. Have you got the bill there, Senator? 3 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. 4 SENATOR DALY: Turn to page 2, 5 line 53. What you're reading, I don't -- I'll 6 read it to you, Senator: Administration/ 7 enforcement. The Department of State shall have 8 the power, and its duty shall be to administer 9 and enforce the laws and regulations of the 10 state relating to those activities regarding *** 11 real estate industry required under this section 12 and require its agents to bring prosecutions for 13 unauthorized and unlawful practices. 14 That has nothing to do with what 15 you read. This is the Department of State. It 16 does not refer, that section or that paragraph, 17 to the commission. It refers directly to the 18 Department of State. 19 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Well, 20 Senator, the -- you -- let me ask you this 21 question -- let me ask you this question on the 22 bill. Is there -- in this bill, if a complaint 23 is made -- in this bill, if a complaint is made 1297 1 to the Secretary of State - 2 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 3 SENATOR GOLD: -- does the board 4 -- would the board have the power to - 5 SENATOR DALY: Would the Senator 6 yield to me just for a minute? Let me emphasize 7 the fact that what you read is not in the bill. 8 SENATOR GOLD: All right. 9 SENATOR DALY: It -- again, may I 10 finish? 11 It again demonstrates, Mr. 12 President, that whoever wrote that letter, 13 whoever wrote the other memo in opposition 14 didn't know what they were talking about. Now, 15 if they had their facts as wrong as indicated by 16 Senator Gold's reading of the memo, his reading 17 of the letter before, that dealt with the 18 numbers of people who are appointed and from 19 where they will come, then, Mr. President, I 20 submit to you that this is really an exercise in 21 futility right now. 22 We're dealing with a piece of 23 paper that means nothing. There's no truth in 1298 1 it. They don't know what the bill is; so why 2 should it be used in the debate on this floor? 3 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Will 4 the Senator yield to a question? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 6 Daly yields, I think. 7 SENATOR DALY: Yes, I will. 8 SENATOR GOLD: All right. 9 SENATOR DALY: I think. Well, I 10 question -- I'll tell the Senator privately 11 later on what I'm thinking. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 13 last section. 14 SENATOR DALY: Thank you, Mr. 15 President. 16 SENATOR GOLD: All right, Mr. - 17 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: I'm 18 sorry, Senator Gold. 19 SENATOR GOLD: That's right. 20 SENATOR DALY: I guess this is 21 what's called warm-up time, Mr. President. We 22 have another heavy bill that we're going to work 23 on. 1299 1 SENATOR GOLD: Now, Senator Daly, 2 I have papers given me by heads of departments 3 and we are told that they continue with some 4 objections. From the point of view of the 5 members on this side, they have consistently 6 voted on bills on a bill-by-bill basis based 7 upon the fact that we can clarify some of the 8 issues and maybe the comments you've been 9 making, Senator Daly, have been gaining you 10 votes. 11 I hope -- I hope for your sake 12 maybe, you know, that might happen, but Senator, 13 what I -- what I -- the proposed "B" print that 14 they were talking about back in June, apparently 15 is not the "B" print before us. 16 SENATOR DALY: Obviously, 17 obviously. 18 SENATOR GOLD: I'm delighted. 19 I'm delighted. But the one thing I'm not 20 delighted about is, just forgetting about 21 whether or not this memo was accurate or not 22 accurate, the question occurs, does the board, 23 under the bill we're talking about today - 1300 1 forget the memo, does the bill we're talking 2 about today give this board the power to make 3 recommendations on the validity of complaints 4 that are filed pursuant to the complaint 5 process? 6 SENATOR DALY: Oh, I would hope 7 so, Mr. President. I would hope that this board 8 would make many recommendations to the Secretary 9 of State, some of which she will follow and some 10 of which she will not. 11 SENATOR GOLD: All right. 12 SENATOR DALY: May I also point 13 out, if I may go oh, finish. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, sure. 15 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, 16 while Senator is talking, getting advice from 17 his counsel, may I also add that you talked 18 about the importance of receiving these letters, 19 these memos from department heads, and I would 20 submit, Mr. President, if this is -- these 21 department heads send such communications, such 22 missiles to the Senate as irresponsibly written 23 and investigated as these memos and letters are, 1301 1 then I'd question their competence to remain as 2 department heads and perhaps indeed the Governor 3 should investigate both of these department 4 heads and certainly look into some of the 5 letters they've been sending us on other - 6 other legislation. Maybe they're just letters 7 from the past and they will continue in the 8 future, and I'm glad it's been raised by Senator 9 Gold for that purpose. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 12 Gold. 13 SENATOR GOLD: On the bill, I've 14 just been asked by a very distinguished member 15 who I respect greatly and whose debate is always 16 so incisive, so important on every single bill 17 that -- whether this is all worth it, and I 18 don't know whether it's worth it or not, Senator 19 Daly. 20 The bottom line is, the way - 21 whether this memo which was written in antici 22 pation is accurate in the changes or not, the 23 bottom line here is you're recommending a board 1302 1 in the department where the department tells you 2 they don't want it, the consumer protection 3 agency tells you they don't want it. It hasn't 4 worked in other states, and you're giving, 5 Senator, as I see it a mandate. 6 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, 7 will the Senator yield to a question? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Will you 9 yield to a question? 10 SENATOR GOLD: No, no, no. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 12 Gold refuses to yield. 13 SENATOR GOLD: No, only because 14 it's a matter of life and death. If I yielded 15 and we continue, I'm going to get shot. 16 The point is, Senator Daly, that 17 you appear to be giving powers to a -- to a 18 voluntary group without staff and whatever that 19 goes into the complaint process. I would have 20 preferred to give you this letter, have you come 21 back tomorrow and see me informally and say, 22 "Senator, it's a different bill or whatever." 23 At any rate, there has now been 1303 1 what my distinguished colleague from Rochester, 2 both of whom I respect greatly, a free and open 3 debate. Last section. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 5 last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 9 roll. 10 Senator Padavan to explain his 11 vote. 12 SENATOR PADAVAN: To explain my 13 vote. 14 First, I'd like to thank the 15 sponsor for having taken the original bill and 16 done a lot of things to respond to some valid, 17 in my view valid, concerns that I've expressed 18 and others had expressed regard to this 19 legislation. But despite those excellent 20 efforts, I'm still going to oppose this bill. 21 The real estate industry is not 22 homogeneous. Unfortunately, in certain parts of 23 the state, particularly in the parts that I 1304 1 represent, we have a component in this industry 2 that can best be described as scurrilous, with 3 no regard to community -- community stability, 4 are constantly involved in block busting, 5 disruptive practices, and cause me and my office 6 to almost weekly write the Secretary of State 7 about one complaint or the other. 8 Now, if we can isolate that group 9 from the rest of the state, there would be 10 nothing wrong with this bill but, unfortunately, 11 we can't and, therefore, there are components of 12 this bill which bring the fox into the chicken 13 coop, and I don't want my complaints to come 14 before this board. I mail too many of them 15 which come from my constituents, who are 16 victimized by the activities of certain 17 unscrupulous real estate agents who, as I said, 18 before don't give a hang about the community in 19 which they make a good living. All they're 20 interested in, in too many cases, is that 21 commission and nothing else. They are a small 22 number, but they do a great deal of damage which 23 is why, in Queens County, the Secretary of State 1305 1 and her predecessors, including the Governor, 2 have found it necessary to enforce non 3 solicitation orders and non-geographic 4 non-solicitation bans, and the simple fact that 5 this industry in that part of the state was 6 causing so much harm; and while this bill is 7 much improved over the original print, it still 8 provides an opportunity for some of these 9 individuals to be put in a position of 10 undermining those efforts which I and others 11 continue to expend in order to control the 12 negative side of the real estate industry in the 13 areas that I represent. 14 So, for that reason, Mr. 15 President, I vote in the negative. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 17 Padavan in the negative. 18 Senator Daly to explain his 19 vote. 20 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, I 21 do believe and certainly in respect to my 22 colleague and certain of the allegations that 23 he's made and certain opposition in the past, 1306 1 but I submit to my colleague that this bill will 2 help us in policing and preventing those 3 practices because we'll have -- as he says, he 4 uses the term "fox in the chicken house", we 5 will have experts in the real estate industry 6 serving on this commission who will be able to 7 advise the Secretary of State and make her aware 8 of possible misuse, I should say abuses in and 9 among real estate operators. 10 I also remind the Senator that 11 his primary concern deals with the non 12 solicitation "cease and desist" law and in the 13 amendment to the bill we have taken that out 14 completely of the regulatory process under the 15 new advisory commission, and we have given it 16 right back to the Secretary of State, period, 17 and I think that act in itself will -- will, I 18 should say should help many of my colleagues to 19 support the bill. 20 But, again, let me say in 21 conclusion, Mr. President, that I see nothing 22 wrong whatsoever in bringing experts of an 23 industry into the regulatory process. Who knows 1307 1 more about a given industry than those who live 2 with it every day? Each and every one of us, 3 when we want to become expert in an area, we 4 know we can't be expert in every area, so we 5 bring in to us, into our offices, we talk to 6 those who spend day after day in that business 7 and we use them as advisers and we've done this 8 in the banking -- with the banking commission 9 for years. 10 That worked well, and, Senator 11 Gold, again the last -- he stated that it hasn't 12 worked in other states. He read it in a memo. 13 We know what that memo was worth, don't we, 14 because in completing the statement it misstated 15 the legislation that is before us. 16 This is good for the industry. 17 This is good for the state and it's good for the 18 people who have to deal with real estate 19 operators because the Secretary of State will 20 have at her command seven -- five to seven 21 members of the real estate industry, the balance 22 -- the balance because of the eight members, 23 including herself, who are not in the real 1308 1 estate industry. 2 Mr. President, this is good 3 legislation and demands the support of this 4 house. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 6 Daly in the affirmative. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explain my 8 vote, please. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 10 Dollinger to explain his vote. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explain my 12 vote. The Journal Clerk perhaps should make an 13 entry that I concur with Senator Daly, and I 14 think that the -- my experience in Monroe County 15 where I have been experienced with this 16 particular agency in real estate deals, the real 17 estate board has done a very good job of self 18 policing, has done a very good job of complaint 19 taking, dealing with complaints, giving evidence 20 at least in our part of the state, and 21 particularly the 54th District. The problems of 22 the real estate industry have been attended to 23 by the real estate agency. 1309 1 That gives me some confidence, 2 although there may be a question of how much 3 control the real estate industry has on this 4 board, which I will leave to others in this 5 state, but I'm convinced that well-meaning real 6 estate agents can be a part of this decision 7 making and recommendations in this state. 8 So I have that confidence, and so 9 again, strange as it may seem, I am concurring 10 and voting with my colleague from western New 11 York. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 13 Dollinger in the affirmative. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Perhaps a 15 notation by the Journal Clerk would be 16 sufficient. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 18 Results. 19 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 20 the negative -- those recorded in the negative 21 on Calendar Number 261 are Senators Galiber, 22 Gold, Kruger, Leichter, Markowitz, Mendez, 23 Montgomery, Onorato, Padavan, Santiago, and 1310 1 Stavisky. Ayes 48, nays 11. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 3 is passed. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 6 Leichter. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 8 may I have unanimous consent to be recorded in 9 the negative on Calendar Number 330, please. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Without 11 objection. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 263, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number 14 5080-A, an act to amend the Family Court Act, in 15 relation to certain records of juvenile 16 delinquents. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 19 Padavan. 20 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you, Mr. 21 President. 22 This bill would mandate the 23 fingerprinting of juvenile offenders for all 1311 1 felonies. Currently we have an unfortunate 2 problem in this state that any youngster may 3 commit and be arrested for a Class D or E felony 4 and is precluded from being fingerprinted. 5 There are, of course, a variety of offenses that 6 would fall into those categories, everything 7 from a loaded firearm or use of one; assaults, 8 sexual contact with a child under the age of 11, 9 and so on, which would put such a youngster in 10 the society which we are obviously trying to 11 protect in a position of not having any record 12 of that individual, that young person, having 13 committed that crime; and so repeat offenders 14 would go undetected, which also has a negative 15 component when you think in terms of the need to 16 refer such a youngster as a youngster-at-risk 17 for appropriate treatment, if necessary, but 18 certainly appropriate action by a court of 19 competent jurisdiction. And so the need for 20 fingerprinting to develop a criminal history 21 unfortunately now has become a matter of 22 necessity. 23 This bill is sponsored in the 1312 1 Assembly by Assemblyman Feldman. It has been 2 written about in a number of articles and 3 supported by such writings and is the reason we 4 have it before us today. 5 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 7 Waldon. 8 SENATOR WALDON: Would the 9 Senator yield to a question or two? 10 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 12 Padavan yields. 13 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, I'm 14 troubled a bit by this approach because 15 historically those less than age 16 have not 16 been treated with fingerprinting and mug shots, 17 et cetera, because this society has felt that 18 they -- they had a chance of rehabilitation or 19 going in a different direction or that they were 20 at such a tender age that they should not be so 21 treated. 22 In preparation of this bill, have 23 you looked at that from its historic perspective 1313 1 in America? 2 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, 3 obviously we've looked at it from historical 4 perspective and obviously this is not something 5 that we enter into with great joy. It has 6 become a matter of necessity. There is a 7 provision in this bill which states that, when a 8 youth has been fingerprinted, if this became 9 law, after one year of adjudication as a 10 juvenile delinquent, the fingerprints are 11 destroyed. 12 The reason there is that we would 13 not want to stigmatize that youngster for the 14 rest of his or her life, and we take that into 15 consideration. The fact remains, Senator, 16 there's one article I read here written by a man 17 by the name of Herbert, talks about a youngster 18 who, I think it was 12 years of age, walked up 19 to someone with a loaded revolver, held it to 20 his head, pulled the hammer; fortunately the 21 round didn't go off. A policeman was on the 22 scene, arrested him. Certain efforts were made, 23 the child was remanded to his parents, and so 1314 1 on. Two weeks later he did the same thing, only 2 this time the weapon did go off. The person was 3 killed. There was no record, and that 4 youngster, by the way, if memory is correct, had 5 a series of other incidents of a criminal nature 6 as well. 7 So, unfortunately, we do the 8 youngster no service and certainly we don't have 9 society protecting itself from such actions when 10 we shield that individual, that young person, 11 from the identity of having had this 12 background. We're not talking about minor 13 offenses here. We're talking about serious acts 14 of violence, and I think it's clear that with 15 72,000 arrests in this state last year of young 16 people in this age category, for such acts of 17 violence, that we've reached the point where, 18 unfortunately, and I mean that unfortunately, we 19 must keep a record of these offenses so that we 20 will be able to deal with these juveniles who 21 are at risk and simultaneously protect 22 society. 23 SENATOR WALDON: May I continue, 1315 1 Mr. President? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 3 Waldon. 4 SENATOR WALDON: If the Senator 5 would continue. But, Senator, don't we have a 6 very exacting record-keeping process now because 7 the juvenile is arrested, the officer fills out 8 the appropriate arrest records, there's a record 9 at the precinct, and the crime that's of a 10 certain nature, certainly is recorded in every 11 conceivable way, and that is retrievable. 12 The only difference that you 13 would now require is that there be fingerprints 14 for this particular situation. 15 SENATOR PADAVAN: Unless there is 16 a conviction of a serious crime, there is no 17 record, Senator, that can be retrieved. If a 18 youngster such as the one I described before 19 where there was no conviction, where for some 20 reason or other the child was remanded back to 21 the parents or some entity and that youngster is 22 arrested at some subsequent point in time 23 committing another act of violence, there is no 1316 1 record to refer to to say that we have a 2 youngster here who has a history of violence, 3 and that's the reason for the bill. 4 There is no other answer to that 5 question. Sometimes these kids are arrested. 6 As you know, they'll give a false name, and that 7 is not uncommon either. The sheer number, 8 72,000 last year, tells us that we have a 9 problem. This bill's not going to solve that 10 problem. I'm not trying to mislead anybody, but 11 certainly I think we need this tool at our 12 disposal. 13 Youngsters today, we read day 14 after day are coming into schools with weapons 15 of all kinds; we're having to put metal 16 detectors at the entrances of our schools, 17 something unheard of when you and I were growing 18 up. Teachers in -- are frightened in the 19 schools because of this kind of violence. It's 20 the realities of the world we're living in. 21 This measure, hopefully, will 22 help. 23 SENATOR WALDON: Last question. 1317 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 2 Waldon. 3 SENATOR WALDON: If I may, 4 Senator, if by "no record" you mean nothing 5 retrievable under MUSOOS or any other finger 6 print retrieving device - 7 SENATOR PADAVAN: That's 8 correct. 9 SENATOR WALDON: I accept and 10 understand that, but when someone is arrested 11 there's a recordation in the regular logs of the 12 precinct. The detectives have the entries in 13 their memo books and, from my experience working 14 the streets of the city of New York, when 15 someone has done something like this, one, you 16 don't release him until you identify the parent 17 or some adult for recognizance purposes even if 18 they're juvenile delinquent and there is an 19 ongoing record somewhere, maybe not computerized 20 and retrievable as fingerprints would be, but 21 there's a record somewhere. 22 So I think there's a bit of a 23 redundancy. I understand, truly I understand 1318 1 the nature of the violence in this city, meaning 2 New York City, and in the state, across the 3 state. 4 SENATOR PADAVAN: May I respond 5 to your point, Senator. 6 Just from the memo, and I think 7 it's important for you to understand this and 8 others that may be listening. It says: Under 9 current law, a juvenile arrested for committing 10 a Class D or E felony offense may not -- may not 11 be fingerprinted. These felonies include such 12 serious offenses as possessing a loaded firearm, 13 assaulting a person and causing serious physical 14 injury, and/or having sexual contact with a 15 child under the age of 11. As a result, each 16 time the juvenile is arrested, he or she appears 17 to be a first offender eligible for lenient 18 treatment. The shielding effect of these 19 provisions follows a youth to adulthood. There, 20 despite numerous felony adjudications, the 21 juvenile can receive youthful offender treatment 22 or have a juvenile offender case removed to 23 Family Court because he or she appears to have 1319 1 no prior record, unless, of course, as you said, 2 you find that log in that precinct that someone 3 remembers. 4 You've got a big city, big 5 state. That can happen, but it doesn't 6 normally. 7 SENATOR WALDON: On the bill, Mr. 8 President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 10 Waldon. 11 SENATOR WALDON: I believe I 12 understand what Senator Padavan is attempting to 13 achieve here. I recognize the seriousness of 14 72,000 violent acts by children. We are living 15 in troubled times, but I just think there's an 16 adequate methodology to follow the young people 17 and that this -- this fingerprinting process 18 just may be too much, too overwhelming, too 19 overburdened, overburdening -- overburdening 20 young people. 21 I just find it very difficult on 22 many levels to accept, so I will have to vote 23 against this. 1320 1 Thank you, Mr. President. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 4 Gold. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I 6 respect very greatly the comments of Senator 7 Waldon and his concerns, but I must say that 8 I've always thought that we go too far in the 9 way we create fingerprinting as itself being 10 this horrifying thing when you realize that 11 lawyers are fingerprinted and people who go into 12 different kinds of government service are 13 fingerprinted and, as I've said before, there 14 are parents who fingerprint their children at a 15 young age just to help in identification if, God 16 forbid, the child gets lost, and they don't 17 think that they are stigmatizing their child. 18 I believe that privacy is very 19 important and there is a place for privacy and 20 that if someone has been in difficulty as a 21 youngster, been given youthful offender 22 treatment or whatever, that that privacy should 23 be very, very important to their whole life. 1321 1 Indeed, if somebody is a juvenile offender and 2 gets in trouble and straightens out their life 3 and gets the break that the law provides for 4 them, I think that that should be respected by 5 everybody in privacy. 6 Having said that, I am proud that 7 a number of years ago, I sponsored what is now a 8 law that takes all of the records from places 9 like New York City and centralizes them in New 10 York City, so you don't have a situation where a 11 youngster gets into trouble in the Bronx and 12 then goes to Queens and Brooklyn and constantly 13 is treated as a first offender. 14 I also think that we all get 15 horrified when we read in the papers some of the 16 situations where, for example, it doesn't deal 17 with the children, but someone has had 30 18 suspensions of their license and then commits 19 vehicular homicide, say how come they're still 20 driving around with 30 suspensions? 21 We have this where you have 22 people still in the system, and you see 18 23 priors and whatever. I don't see anything wrong 1322 1 with this bill from the point of view that 2 someone gets identified in the system and if 3 somebody has been in trouble and is still 4 getting into trouble, we ought to know about 5 it. At that point, we can talk about help, we 6 can talk about treatment. Maybe we ought to 7 just talk about jail and punishment, but I think 8 that we have to know. 9 Today many of us were visited by 10 schools, parents, teachers, the Board of Ed. 11 people were up here, and one of the terrible 12 things about the New York City school system 13 today is the violence which apparently even the 14 students say is their number one concern, and 15 you can't have wonderful children of all racial, 16 ethnic backgrounds, trying to go to school. 17 Parents are concerned, parents work, they want 18 their kids to have a better life, and there's 19 the two percent, five percent, whatever it is, 20 ten percent who go there with guns and whatever 21 who were destroying the opportunity of the other 22 children, and I see nothing wrong with this 23 bill. 1323 1 One thing about the bill, to tell 2 you the truth, which I don't understand but 3 obviously it's not going to change, is why it 4 even has to be destroyed if the youngster is not 5 in trouble for a year. If you start at 13 and 6 you go a year 14, then you get in trouble at 14, 7 go a year to 15, I don't even know why we have 8 to destroy prints at that point. But it's in 9 the bill and, Senator Padavan, fine. 10 But I think we have to get over 11 the hurdle that in the criminal justice system 12 we are somehow tainting people forever merely by 13 doing a fingerprinting, and the identification 14 process. I see nothing wrong with it. As a 15 matter of fact, maybe if we have fingerprinting 16 and a kid has been in trouble and gets in 17 trouble again, maybe there's a few kids we could 18 save who are not being saved because we don't 19 know at some point under the present system how 20 much involved they really are. 21 So I don't change my views on 22 helping these kids. I don't change my views on 23 youthful offender treatment, and I don't change 1324 1 my views on giving them some opportunity even if 2 they are incarcerated, but I do not see where 3 the identification process hurts them if their 4 privacy is properly maintained, and I'm going to 5 support the bill. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 7 Galiber. 8 SENATOR GALIBER: Thank you, Mr. 9 President. 10 Senator Gold and I usually are 11 headed in the same direction. So this issue, 12 however, we part company momentarily. 13 This piece of legislation starts 14 opening up with the fingerprinting of youngsters 15 in the spirit in which we give youngsters 16 another shot, so to speak, is what the Family 17 Court is really all about. 18 Now, we all recognize that we're 19 living in some horrendous times, that we've lost 20 perhaps a generation, if you will, of 21 youngsters, but the spirit of what the Family 22 Court is all about and as the sponsor indicated, 23 the stigma that is attached to fingerprints - 1325 1 and we're going to get some more bills this year 2 on fingerprinting -- and it depends on how you 3 want to use those fingerprints, what is the 4 spirit in which you fingerprint folks for and 5 this piece of legislation would say that we are 6 fingerprinting those persons in felony 7 categories that if, in a year's period of time, 8 that person or if something happens we would 9 then destroy those fingerprints. 10 That's not so. This is part of a 11 movement that some of us, those of us who have 12 been here a long time, had warned us about, 13 Orwellian in his 1984 society suggested what had 14 happened. 1984 came here in Albany and we said 15 absolutely nothing at all about it. 16 They've got youngsters with 17 serial numbers, and serial numbers, we just call 18 them Social Security numbers, almost before 19 they're born. They've got high tech' which can 20 tell you what color socks you had on last year. 21 We are focusing in on a group of youngsters, 22 small in number, but powerful and horrendous. I 23 wish we would just spend part of our time 1326 1 talking about those goods kids. We're talking 2 about the few in number. 3 Now, Senator, nobody has any 4 stronger feeling about what's happening out in 5 the streets of New York than I and contra to 6 some of the thoughts of those of my colleagues 7 on both sides of the aisle who suggest that 8 because we have a different view we have a 9 different vision or we recognize what the end 10 results may be, that we're soft on crime, we 11 excuse what happens in our community, and that's 12 not so because the recipients, if you will, of 13 all these, the violence that occurs in 14 comparison to the sponsor's neighborhood, my 15 neighborhood and some others, are inundated with 16 this kind of negative activity. 17 But the spirit of what the Family 18 Court Act, as recently as 1962, as we measure 19 history, was with a view toward giving the 20 youngster another opportunity. The Youthful 21 Offender Law that has been mentioned with a view 22 toward giving someone another opportunity. 23 Someone once said that we have a 1327 1 learning experience in our society and we learn 2 by reading and writing, listening and making 3 mistakes and those of us who are parents only 4 hope that the mistakes that we -- our children 5 find themselves in or participating in are such 6 that are not serious enough to harm them for the 7 rest of their life. 8 Senator Padavan, this bill has a 9 potential for harming a youngster for the rest 10 of his or her life. We said in the piece of 11 legislation that, if the fingerprints are 12 destroyed, so be it. That saves the possibility 13 of an admitted stigma. But, Senator, once you 14 are fingerprinted, those prints stay on file. 15 Even a youthful offender fingerprinting process 16 if you're subsequently arrested show up on the 17 NYSIIS sheet. There is absolutely no way that 18 we can force the F.B.I. who will also have a 19 copy of those fingerprints to give those 20 fingerprints back even if we do, in fact, 21 destroy them. 22 Senator, this is a -- not a mean 23 spirited piece of legislation. We all recognize 1328 1 where you are coming from, but I suggest that 2 fingerprinting youngsters at the age of 12 and 3 13 and 14 is not the right way to go, that we're 4 headed in the wrong direction to solve a very 5 serious problem, that yet when we ascertain 6 where that problem is, we pinpoint that problem, 7 we come back and tell you where that problem is, 8 and all we need is a little help in terms of 9 putting the resources, whatever they may be, 10 into those neighborhoods and communities where 11 these problems are, so we can stop some of this 12 madness that's taking place in our communities. 13 Can't get the support, can't get the support. 14 So, Senator, I understand where 15 you're coming from. I understand why you have 16 put this piece of legislation in, but I think 17 there's a potential for damaging, and it's not a 18 bleeding heart approach, not a liberal approach, 19 it's not soft on crime approach. It's saying 20 that the spirit of what the Family Court Act is, 21 the spirit of what those of us who live in this 22 great country give the next person an 23 opportunity, this piece of legislation doesn't 1329 1 do that. 2 I don't know how to solve that 3 problem except to put those resources that I 4 mentioned before in those areas that we've 5 pinpointed where the violence occurs or to deal 6 with some of the core reasons why we have this 7 kind of violence. This is not the right way to 8 go. Once this person at the age of 12 or 13 9 will be fingerprinted, those prints will stay on 10 file for the rest of his or her life and, if we 11 don't change the direction that we're going in, 12 I dare say that the time is going to come much 13 sooner and it won't be a question of you will be 14 precluded from employment and schools because 15 you are convicted of a felony or convicted of 16 certain misdemeanors, you're going to be 17 excluded merely because you were fingerprinted. 18 Senator, those fingerprints will, 19 in fact, stay on file. 20 Thank you, Mr. President. I vote 21 no. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 23 Goodman. 1330 1 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President, 2 since the matter of fingerprinting is going to 3 come before us in regard to several different 4 pieces of legislation, it's perhaps a timely 5 moment to express a point of view about this 6 which I don't think has been heard on this floor 7 or the floor of the other house. 8 My first set of fingerprints of 9 myself were taken when I entered the United 10 States Navy at the officer candidate school in 11 Newport, Rhode Island. I got through that 12 school and became a commissioned officer and 13 served in the Navy for 38 months, and for every 14 day of that 38 months I had a plasticized 15 identification card with my fingerprints on it. 16 The purpose of that was to make certain that 17 upon entering or leaving various military 18 facilities that I could be positively 19 identified. 20 The next occasion on which I had 21 my fingerprints taken were when President George 22 Bush appointed me to the National Endowment for 23 the Arts and, as part of my Federal Bureau of 1331 1 Investigation check, I had to go to my local 2 police station, give a complete set of 3 fingerprints which went on file with the F.B.I., 4 went on file with the United States Senate, 5 which did an independent check. In short, a 6 widely disseminated set of fingerprints are now 7 on file in every imaginable government agency. 8 From my standpoint, the occasions 9 on which I was fingerprinted were occasions of 10 honor and of not anything that was in any way 11 negative, but rather had a positive aspect to 12 it. 13 Let's consider another problem 14 that arises with respect to identification. 15 Every now and then, we hear that a youngster has 16 been inadvertently switched in a hospital, given 17 to the wrong parents because of inadequate 18 identification of that youngster, and so there's 19 been suggested the notion that we should take, 20 if not fingerprints a footprint of every new 21 born child to be sure that there's no such 22 confusion. 23 I think the problem which 1332 1 confronts us on fingerprinting is that the whole 2 context of the matter has been a criminal one 3 rather than a recognition that there are a wide 4 variety of needs for identification, and I'll 5 just cite one more to you. Some years ago I 6 sponsored a piece of legislation in this house 7 which became law which brought about the 8 necessity of a check of people who are on a 9 government payroll and at the same time 10 receiving various types of government subsidies 11 with respect to presumed unemployment. By 12 comparing those who have jobs for pay with those 13 who did not have jobs for pay which was done 14 with the Social Security number, we were able to 15 save an estimated $167 million a year of 16 taxpayers' money. 17 Now, I submit to you that this 18 type of identification is in the public 19 interest. The problem, of course, is that in 20 the great majority of other cases, there's a 21 criminal identification context attaching to 22 fingerprinting and it seems to me that the 23 sooner we realize that this is not something 1333 1 which carries a negative onus, but something 2 which needs to be done to fulfill a whole 3 assortment of salutary purposes which benefit 4 society, does seem to me that we'll change our 5 view of this. 6 We now have new technology called 7 finger-imaging. Several of you may have been at 8 the demonstration that was given us here two 9 years ago when the new machinery which accom 10 plishes this was demonstrated and a number of us 11 put our hands in the machine and we were able to 12 be advised that our fingerprint identification 13 on this imaging was even more positive than the 14 old technique. 15 To sum up, Mr. President, I think 16 that this is a useful and, indeed in some cases, 17 a salutary development, one which should be 18 viewed not in the negative sense but in a 19 positive way which will help all of us if it's 20 enacted. 21 This is just the first of a 22 series of bills. I think we should give it our 23 affirmative support. 1334 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 2 last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll.) 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 9 Galiber to explain his vote. 10 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes. Thank 11 you, Mr. President. 12 On the same spirit of what my 13 colleague had mentioned, Senator, it's a 14 question of what you intend. We all know that 15 in certain countries they have tied yellow 16 ribbons on arms in certain countries, for 17 horrible, horrible reasons. That yellow band is 18 not the same one that we wrap around trees to 19 bring our soldiers home. 20 So it has to do, Mr. President, 21 what is the spirit; what is behind this notion 22 of fingerprinting more than the fact of the 23 distinction, and there's a volcanic difference 1335 1 from what my colleague has indicated. 2 I vote no. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 4 Galiber in the negative. Results. 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56, nays 3, 6 Senators Galiber, Santiago and Waldon recorded 7 in the negative. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 9 is passed. 10 Senator Present. 11 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 12 in behalf of Senator Marino, I offer up the 13 following committee assignment changes and ask 14 that they be filed at the Journal. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: They'll 16 be filed in the Journal, so ordered. 17 SENATOR PRESENT: Any 18 housekeeping? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Any 20 motions, resolutions, housekeeping? 21 Senator Present. 22 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 23 there being no further business, I move that we 1336 1 adjourn until tomorrow at 11:00 a.m. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senate 3 stands adjourned until tomorrow at 11:00 a.m. 4 (Whereupon at 4:52 p.m., the 5 Senate adjourned. ) 6 7 8 9 10