Wednesday, April 6, 1994

2195 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 April 6, 1994 11 12:23 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 SENATOR HUGH T. FARLEY, Acting President 19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 20 21 22 23 2196 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 3 Senate will come to order. Senators will please 4 find their seats. We'll wait just a second; 5 wait for a second for the stenographer. 6 Allegiance to the flag. 7 (The assemblage repeated the 8 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 9 In the absence of clergy, we'll 10 bow our heads in a moment of silent prayer. 11 (A moment of silence was 12 observed.) 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 14 Secretary will begin by reading the Journal. 15 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 16 Tuesday, April 5th. The Senate met pursuant to 17 adjournment, Senator Kuhl in the Chair upon 18 designation of the Temporary President. The 19 Journal of Monday, April 4th, was read and 20 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hearing 22 no objection, the Journal will stand approved as 23 read. 2197 1 The order of business: 2 Presentation of Peti...Senator Present. 3 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you 4 recognize Senator Skelos, please. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I 6 certainly will. Senator Skelos. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. There will 8 be an immediate meeting of the Aging Committee 9 in the Majority Conference Room. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 11 There'll be an immediate meeting of the Aging 12 Committee in Room 332, the Majority Conference 13 Room. 14 Senator Mendez. 15 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yesterday 16 afternoon, I had to step out of this chamber and 17 I would like the record to reflect that if I 18 would have been here, I would have voted no on 19 Calendar Number 405. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 21 record will so... 22 SENATOR PRESENT: No objection. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 2198 1 record will show that. 2 The order of business. Senator 3 Nozzol... wait a minute, we're not on that. 4 Presentation of petitions. 5 Messages from the Assembly. 6 Messages from the Governor. 7 Reports of standing committees. 8 Reports of select committees. 9 Communications and reports. 10 Motions and resolutions. Senator 11 Nozzolio. 12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr. 13 President. 14 On behalf of Senator Levy, I wish 15 to star Calendar Number 485, Bill S. 193-A. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Bill is 17 starred at the request of the sponsor. 18 Senator Volker. 19 SENATOR VOLKER: Just standing, 20 Mr. President, thank you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: O.K. 22 Any other motions on the floor? No other 23 motions. O.K. We have a couple resolutions. 2199 1 Senator Present. 2 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 3 I move that we adopt the Resolution Calendar. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: All in 5 favor of adopting the Resolution Calendar, say 6 aye. 7 (Response of "Aye.") 8 Those opposed, nay. 9 (There was no response. ) 10 The Resolution Calendar is 11 adopted. 12 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you 13 recognize Senator Larkin, please. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 15 Larkin. 16 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 17 Resolution Number 3122 commemorates the week of 18 April 30th, 1944 as Town Clerks' Week in the 19 state of New York. Like to open it up for 20 sponsorship by everyone. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 22 Resolution on Town Clerks' Week is open to the 23 Senate to sponsor. Please approach the desk. 2200 1 All Republicans. Do you wish all the Democrats 2 to be on it, Senator Gold? 3 SENATOR GOLD: Pardon me? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On Town 5 Clerks' Week resolution? 6 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on one 7 second. It's a great idea. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: All 9 members of the Senate will be on it. Please 10 approach the desk if you wish not to be. 11 Senator Gold? 12 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 14 Gold. 15 SENATOR GOLD: I believe there's 16 a privileged resolution at the desk sponsored by 17 Senator Nolan and, if you could read the title 18 and then perhaps people want to co-sponsor it. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 20 Secretary will read the title. 21 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 22 Resolution by Senators Nolan, Farley, Stafford, 23 Bruno and Holland, paying tribute to Siena 2201 1 College men's basketball team in recognition of 2 their outstanding regular season and their 3 exceptional post-season performance in the 1994 4 National Invitational Tournament. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. I certainly 6 think that all the Democrats want to be on it 7 and I think all the Republicans with the 8 exception of Senator Skelos. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 10 want to be on it for that great team from the 11 Capital District area. 12 SENATOR PRESENT: I think except 13 those who decline should be on it. 14 SENATOR GOLD: I think the only 15 exception is Senator Skelos. He's voting no. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: All 17 members of the Senate will be on it. Siena 18 certainly had a great, great year and the Senate 19 is very proud to support them. One of the joys 20 of the Capital District. 21 All in favor of adopting the 22 resolution, say aye. 23 (Response of "Aye.") 2202 1 Those opposed nay. 2 (There was no response. ) 3 It's unanimously adopted. 4 There's a third resolution here. 5 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you 6 recognize Senator Holland. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 8 Holland. 9 SENATOR HOLLAND: Will you read 10 the title of the resolution? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 12 Secretary will read the title of Senator 13 Holland's resolution. 14 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 15 Resolution, by Senators Holland, Nolan, Farley, 16 Stafford and Bruno, honoring and commemorating 17 the success of Rockland County's native son, 18 Mike Deane, head coach of the Siena basketball 19 team. 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Just want to 21 note that he is a Rockland County native and he 22 did an excellent job. I'd certainly like to 23 open it up to everybody for sponsorship also. 2203 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 2 objection, I guess all members of the Senate 3 will be on the Mike Deane resolution, 4 outstanding coach who is now heading off to a 5 bigger and better job, supposedly. 6 All in favor of the resolution 7 say aye. 8 (Response of "Aye.") 9 Those opposed nay. 10 (There was no response. ) 11 The resolution -- the resolution 12 is adopted. All members will be on it without 13 objection. 14 Senator Present. 15 SENATOR PRESENT: I think we're 16 ready for the non-controversial calendar. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 18 Secretary will read non-controversial. 19 THE SECRETARY: On page 5, 20 Calendar Number 233, by Senator Holland, Senate 21 Bill Number 2839-B, an act to amend the Social 22 Services Law, in relation to the use of a 23 fingerprint matching identification system. 2204 1 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay the 3 bill aside. 4 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present. 6 SENATOR PRESENT: In order to 7 accommodate a couple of members, can we have the 8 last section of that read and allow them to 9 vote. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Clerk 11 will read. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Who are our 13 members? 14 SENATOR PRESENT: Senator - 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 18 the roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 SENATOR PRESENT: Call Senator 21 Sears' name. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears. 23 SENATOR SEARS: Aye. 2205 1 SENATOR PRESENT: And Senator 2 Skelos. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Have to check 4 that. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Aye. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on. 8 SENATOR PRESENT: Withdraw the 9 roll call and lay the bill aside. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Roll call 11 is withdrawn, and the bill is laid aside. 12 THE SECRETARY: On page 11, 13 Calendar Number 480, by member of the Assembly 14 DiNapoli, Assembly Bill Number 9307, Education 15 Law, in relation to the estimated expenses of 16 school districts. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 18 section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2206 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 481, by Senator Present, Senate Bill Number 6 6943, authorize the payment of transportation 7 aid to Dansville Central School District. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 9 local fiscal impact note at the desk. Last 10 section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 482, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2836, 21 an act to amend the General Municipal Law. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 23 section. 2207 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 41. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 8 is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 484, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 81-A. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 13 bill aside. 14 Senator Leichter. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. May I 16 ask that we reconsider the vote by which 17 Calendar 482 just passed and ask that that bill 18 be laid aside, please? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 482, is 20 it here? It's here. Call the roll on 21 reconsideration. 22 (The Secretary called the roll on 23 reconsideration. ) 2208 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 41. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is laid aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 487, by Senator Tully, Senate Bill Number 6 2539-A, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic 7 Law. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 9 section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 41. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 488, by Senator Sears, Senate Bill Number 6805, 20 an act to amend the Highway Law, designating a 21 portion of the state highway system as the 22 Aluminum Workers' Memorial Highway. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 2209 1 section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 41. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 493, by Senator Lack, Senate Bill Number 6964, 12 Estates, Powers and Trusts Law. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 14 section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 41. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2210 1 498, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 931, 2 an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 3 increasing penalties for crimes of conspiracy. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 5 section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 499, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 2627, 16 an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 17 authorized dispositions in certain felony 18 cases. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 20 section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 2211 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42, nays 4 one, Senator DeFrancisco recorded in the 5 negative. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 7 is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 506, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 4417, 10 Criminal Procedure Law and the Family Court 11 Act. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Will you hold for 13 Senator Galiber, please. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 15 bill aside. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 507, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 4829, 18 Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to issuance 19 of search warrants. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 21 section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 23 act shall take effect immediately. 2212 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 2 roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6 is passed. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 510, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number 9 6845, an act to amend Chapter 266 of the Laws of 10 1981, amending the Civil Practice Law and 11 Rules. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 13 section. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 15 please. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 17 bill aside. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 513, by - 20 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 22 bill aside. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2213 1 518, by Senator Cook. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 3 please. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 5 bill aside. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 519, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 8 5073-A, Environmental Conservation Law. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 10 section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 520, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 6560, 21 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation 22 Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 2214 1 section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 521, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 12 7029, Environmental Conservation Law. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 14 section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2215 1 523, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 1003-A, 2 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay aside. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 5 bill aside. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 524, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 1114, 8 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 9 relation to suspension pending prosecution. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 11 section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 18 the results. 19 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 20 the negative on Calendar Number 524 are Senators 21 Daly, DeFrancisco, Farley, Holland, Kuhl, 22 Present, Rath, Saland, Spano, Stachowski, 23 Velella and Wright. Ayes 34, nays 12. 2216 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 2 is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 525, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 1310, 5 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 6 relation to limiting options for plea bargaining 7 for repeated DWI offenders. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 9 section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44, nays 2, 16 Senators DeFrancisco and Kuhl recorded in the 17 negative. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 526, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 7239. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, 23 please. 2217 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 2 bill aside. 3 Senator Present, that completes 4 the non-controversial calendar. What's your 5 pleasure? 6 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you 7 recognize Senator Saland? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Saland. 10 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President, I 11 request unanimous consent to be recorded in the 12 negative on Calendar Number 499. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 14 objection, so ordered. 15 Senator DeFrancisco. 16 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I'd ask 17 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative 18 on 487, please. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 20 objection, so ordered. 21 Senator Present. 22 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 23 let's take up the controversial calendar, 2218 1 please. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Clerk 3 will read the controversial calendar. 4 THE SECRETARY: On page 5, 5 Calendar Number 233, by Senator Holland, Senate 6 Bill Number 2839-B, Social Service Law, in 7 relation to the use of fingerprint matching 8 identification system for home relief benefits. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Holland, an explanation has been asked for. 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, Mr. 13 President. 14 I think everyone knows really 15 what the problem is, and I think most of us 16 believe, however well, that fingerprinting 17 should be a part of the solution. It will save 18 us an awful lot of money and restore credibility 19 to the system. With fingerprinting we have, of 20 course, an opportunity to return credibility, 21 responsibility and integrity to a system which 22 is widely perceived by the public as being a red 23 tape bureaucracy which is absolutely riddled 2219 1 with fraud. 2 The problem is -- some of the 3 problems, welfare is growing at 12, 15, 20, 30 4 percent a year. In this year's budget, Medicaid 5 and welfare is approximately $24 billion of the 6 $63 billion total budget, or 38 percent of the 7 budget, and the people are telling us and, in 8 fact, begging us to clean up the system. The 9 people are hating and mistrusting anyone on 10 welfare, mistrusting anyone who needs help, not 11 because they need help because I think most of 12 us want to help them, but because of the limited 13 number of thieves who are stealing from the 14 system. 15 You've all heard the testimony, 16 testimony before my committee, testimony before 17 other committees, from all over the state and 18 all over the nation that fraud and abuse in the 19 Medicaid and welfare system is five percent of 20 that $24 billion, is ten percent of that $24 21 billion, and it's even been suggested it's 25 22 percent of that $24 billion, but realistically 23 if it's five percent, then we are being ripped 2220 1 off, the taxpayers of this state and we're 2 allowing it, if it's five percent, $1.2 billion 3 dollars. It's more likely that it's near 10 4 percent and that means we're allowing the 5 taxpayers of this state to be ripped off for 6 approximately $2.4 billion a year. 7 Now, some people say that the 8 system is degrading. I certainly don't think 9 so, but we need to improve the system. We need 10 to tighten up the management. We need to offer 11 better management tools to clean up the system 12 and every time we do it there's another reason 13 why we shouldn't be able to do that. In the 14 meantime, as we said, the taxpayers are being 15 ripped off for $2 billion a year and we can not 16 agree on a solution. 17 Some people say that only 18 criminals are fingerprinted. Now, you know - 19 you know that isn't true. I have a list here of 20 80 different groups that require fingerprinting 21 in this state, and I'll be glad to read it for 22 you if you want. But some of them are police, 23 military personnel, anybody who works for a 2221 1 museum, anybody who works for an art gallery, 2 anybody who works for the school system for the 3 city of New York, the Governor's staff, and on 4 and on and on. 5 And people don't mind being 6 fingerprinted; and somebody will say, well, it's 7 not voluntary, but if you recall a few years ago 8 when people went into the military it wasn't 9 voluntary then either, but they still had their 10 fingerprints taken. Therefore, people who need 11 help should be willing to have their finger 12 prints taken and, in fact, they are. 13 We've done a state study. The 14 Department of Social Services has done a state 15 study, and they found in that study that 93 or 16 94 percent of the people, the clients, the 17 people who need help, do not mind having their 18 fingerprints taken and, in fact, you've probably 19 done the same thing I've done, you've gone into 20 other offices and asked or on the street and 21 asked those people if they mind -- minded. 22 You've watched them on TV. They do not mind if 23 they need assistance. The honest people on the 2222 1 system do not mind. It is the thieves that mind 2 having their fingerprints taken. 3 In a 1993 letter, Commissioner 4 Shepard of New York City Department of 5 Investigation cited a major welfare fraud scheme 6 involving fraudulent I.D.s. This case you've 7 heard over and over and over again. There were 8 115 welfare recipients in the city of New York 9 that ripped off the system for $45 million, a 10 system that should have caught these people 11 stealing from the system, but it was $45 million 12 that they took out of the system very, very 13 easily. And recently you've seen in the paper 14 where people from different states are coming 15 into our state, and they're getting home relief 16 in New Jersey, in New York. They found 425 17 people who were collecting in New Jersey and New 18 York, and I believe that's only the tip of the 19 iceberg. Then they decided to check Jersey City 20 and they pulled ten people from the home relief 21 rolls. Guess how many were collecting in both 22 states? Eight out of the ten. This is a 23 terrible uncontrolled system that is ripping off 2223 1 the taxpayers. 2 In the study done by DSS in 3 Rockland County and Onondaga County, two 4 counties that are very far apart and rural 5 counties which only have one entry point, but 6 the city of New York has 39 entry points, the 7 department of -- DSS, the Department of Social 8 Services found that the savings in those two 9 counties for the year approached $700,000, and 10 they projected for an expense of 10 million to 11 $13 million dollars, we could save statewide $46 12 million a year, and that doesn't count -- that's 13 only home relief. That doesn't count Medicaid. 14 That doesn't count food stamps. If we put all 15 of that in, we could save approximately $100 16 million a year for an expense of 10- to $13 17 million. 18 According to Comptroller McCall 19 in a report issued -- a release in December of 20 1993, as much as $39 million dollars in home 21 relief payments in 1991 were actually over 22 payments for a variety of reasons. In that same 23 report, Comptroller McCall recommended that the 2224 1 Department of Social Services establish local 2 quality control safeguards to prevent over 3 payments. 4 In its response, the Department 5 of Social Services said that finger imaging 6 could be employed as a more cost-effective 7 safeguard against over-payments. And people 8 will bring up California. I have spoken to some 9 Senators from Los Angeles County in the NCSL. 10 That system saved approximately $5.2 million 11 just for the city of Los Angeles in one year - 12 or six months, rather, and they estimate that, 13 if it went statewide, the state of California 14 would save $750 million in the first year and 15 they are looking -- California is now looking at 16 expanding to the surrounding counties around Los 17 Angeles. 18 I want to tell you a little bit 19 more about Los Angeles, because I know that will 20 be coming up. A total of 3,263 recipients and 21 applicants were either denied or terminated for 22 failing to comply with finger imaging 23 requirement within the first six months of the 2225 1 study. Among the applicants, 80 percent of whom 2 received general assistance previously, there 3 were 29 matches made and 213 refused to be 4 fingerprinted. Among the recipients, there were 5 11 matches made and over 3,000 refused to be 6 fingerprinted. 7 Now, there must be a reason why 8 they refused to be fingerprinted. I told you 9 about the savings in Rockland County, and I told 10 you that there -- they stand far apart. I would 11 like to tell you a few comments from some people 12 you may recognize their names. 13 Comptroller McCall, who on Monday 14 endorsed fingerprinting, I think you all know 15 that, said "we must take steps to combat the 16 perception that welfare is rampant with fraud, 17 and fingerprinting will do that. It will bring 18 back credibility to the system and not the hate 19 that people have out there for people on 20 welfare." 21 Governor Cuomo last week admitted 22 to the press that finger imaging could "give the 23 welfare system the much needed credibility it 2226 1 now lacks with the taxpayers." The Governor 2 said, "The more I hear the arguments against it, 3 the more convinced I'm right. This is not a 4 stigma. I don't understand any suggestion that 5 it is." 6 People in support of the system 7 besides the people on this side of the aisle, 8 New York City Mayor Giuliani wants to expand it 9 and bring it out as quickly as possible; the 10 Governor, the Comptroller, most county 11 executives if not all, probably 80 percent of 12 the taxpayers, the people that we represent. 13 You also heard about Judge Weinstein who had a 14 case of fraud, two women from the Dominican 15 Republic, and he said in his opinion that 16 fingerprinting -- the state is making a huge 17 mistake by not implementing finger imaging right 18 away. 19 And, of course, the Department of 20 Social Services. My colleagues, the people want 21 it, and you know, you talk to them, they want 22 it. It's a proven money saver, and the honest 23 clients do not object to having their finger 2227 1 image taken. Why don't we join together and do 2 this for the taxpayers of this state as soon as 3 possible. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Waldon. 6 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 7 much, Mr. President. 8 Would the learned gentleman yield 9 to a question or two? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Holland, do you yield? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Senator does. 15 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Holland, 16 I believe I heard you - 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Present. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes, Mr. 20 President. Would you recognize Senator Cook. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Cook. 23 SENATOR COOK: My apology, but 2228 1 there's an Education Committee meeting scheduled 2 for 1:00 o'clock. I think we'll move that into 3 the conference room, the Majority Conference 4 Room rather than downstairs, so we will be 5 available for votes here. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 7 will be a Senate Education Committee meeting in 8 the Conference Room scheduled for 1:00 o'clock 9 which is now. 10 Thank you, Senator Cook; thank 11 you, Senator Waldon for your indulgence. 12 SENATOR PRESENT: Thank you, 13 Senator Waldon. 14 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 15 President, and thank you, Mr. President. 16 Senator Holland, I believe I 17 heard you say that people who wish to receive 18 this aid from the state do not object to 19 receiving -- do not object to being finger 20 printed. 21 It is difficult to know people 22 unless you walk in their own shoes. Can you 23 tell me where you conducted the surveys which 2229 1 gave you that information? 2 SENATOR HOLLAND: You know, 3 Senator, the survey was done in Rockland and 4 Onondaga Counties where the system has been 5 implemented for over a year, but there have been 6 other pieces on TV, just reviewing one this 7 morning, where the TV cameras go out and ask the 8 clients in the welfare offices, because I was 9 there, if they minded and they said absolutely 10 not, because they were honest people who just 11 needed help. 12 SENATOR WALDON: The people that 13 you interviewed in the two counties in question, 14 I will, if the President permits me, I will get 15 to that momentarily. But did you conduct any 16 surveys in Bedford-Stuyvesant? 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Personally? No, 18 sir. 19 SENATOR WALDON: Did anyone? 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Not to my 21 knowledge. 22 SENATOR WALDON: Did anyone 23 conduct any surveys in South Jamaica or in the 2230 1 Auburn-Edgemere section of the Rockaways? 2 SENATOR HOLLAND: I will give you 3 the fact that the only surveys that I know were 4 done were in Rockland and Onondaga County. It 5 won't be necessary to go through every county in 6 the state of New York. 7 SENATOR WALDON: So what you're 8 saying is that, if I understand -- Mr. 9 President, may I continue? 10 What you're saying, if I 11 understand correctly, is that you're projecting 12 the results of the survey conducted upstate 13 across the state of New York, the eighteen and a 14 half million people of the state of New York 15 have projected upon them the results of the 16 survey you conducted in the two counties of the 17 state, is that correct? 18 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir, but I 19 don't think that people in the city of New York 20 are really any different than the people in 21 Rockland and Onondaga. People who are in need 22 are the same whether they are in Onondaga County 23 or Queens or wherever. 2231 1 SENATOR WALDON: I'm not sure 2 that I agree with that. 3 Mr. President, may I continue? 4 May I continue? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Please 6 do, Senator. 7 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Holland, 8 even looking at the survey that was conducted 9 upstate, the information that you gave doesn't 10 seem quite accurate. My information -- and 11 correct me if it's wrong -- says that there were 12 4,772 applicants in both districts; only 19 13 refused to be fingerprinted, is that correct? 14 SENATOR HOLLAND: There were - 15 yes, sir, I believe that's correct, and there 16 were none in Rockland County who refused to be 17 fingerprinted. They sat the individuals down 18 prior to their being fingerprinted, explained 19 the system to them, and absolutely none refused 20 to be fingerprinted. 21 SENATOR WALDON: Further my 22 information states, Senator Holland, that 495 of 23 the 3,344 existing cases called in for finger 2232 1 printing were closed, with only 145 otherwise 2 unexplainable closings; is that fairly accurate? 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir. 4 SENATOR WALDON: And isn't that 5 what you based the cost savings upon? 6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir, and I 7 also gave the information from Los Angeles 8 County where 3,000 people, applicants, didn't 9 show up in the first six months to have their 10 fingerprints taken. Yes, sir, that's where the 11 savings come from and if we project that 12 statewide, the Department says we will save $46 13 million, not counting Medicaid and food stamps. 14 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 15 may I continue. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Please 17 continue. 18 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, we 19 debated Los Angeles last year for a long time. 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir and I 21 (talking over/unintelligible) constituents with 22 you. 23 SENATOR WALDON: And we're having 2233 1 this conversation again. 2 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 3 SENATOR WALDON: Very politely, I 4 may add. 5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 6 SENATOR WALDON: But there is 7 room for error in your analysis because what 8 you're saying is the fact that people refuse to 9 be fingerprinted, ergo, therefore, means there's 10 a dollar cost savings but we don't really know 11 why the people refused. 12 If I understood what you said, 13 you said they willingly came forth and were 14 fingerprinted, but some, for reasons unknown, 15 refused to be fingerprinted, and I ask you 16 again, was there any survey conducted in Harlem; 17 was there any survey conducted in the barios of 18 the city of New York, in regard to whether 19 people would willingly want to be fingerprinted? 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, sir. But, 21 again, I say I don't think the people in Harlem 22 or the barios or wherever are any different than 23 Onondaga or Rockland County. 2234 1 SENATOR WALDON: Senator -- Mr. 2 President, may I continue? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 continues to yield, yes. 5 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, 6 Senator. I beg to differ with you, but we'll 7 get to that momentarily. Were you in the 8 military, Senator? 9 SENATOR HOLLAND: In the United 10 States Marine Corps, Senator. 11 SENATOR WALDON: Did you 12 willingly go into the military? 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: I did when I 14 was a Senior in high school. 15 SENATOR WALDON: I also willingly 16 went into the military. I don't know if you're 17 aware of that, I joined for three years, I left 18 the corner of Patkin Avenue and Putnam and 19 Jefferson, those corners, and came back a man 20 three years later, but I wanted to be in the 21 military. 22 When I became a police officer, I 23 wanted to be a police officer. When I was a 2235 1 member of the postal department, I wanted to be 2 a member of the post office, and even beyond the 3 wildest imagination, when I became a member of 4 this Senate, I wanted to be a member of the 5 Senate. Might fool you, this information, but 6 it is true. But in each of those situations I 7 enlisted, and your term in the military it was 8 done willingly, voluntarily, it was something 9 that both you and I wanted. 10 People who are on welfare for the 11 most part, are they not women and children? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: There are men, 13 women and children, Senator, yes. 14 SENATOR WALDON: But aren't the 15 bulk of them -- (talking over) 16 SENATOR HOLLAND: Let me go back 17 -- let me go back to the draft. There were 18 people who were drafted in the military who 19 fought on Iwo Jima, who may not have wanted to 20 go. Some of them even ran away, went to Canada, 21 you know some of those people. They're people 22 who didn't want to go; there were people who 23 were drafted to go to Inchon, Mecong Delta. They 2236 1 were drafted; they didn't want to go. They 2 didn't have to have their fingerprints taken, 3 but they did anyway. So everybody wasn't like 4 you and I, they did not want to go. 5 SENATOR WALDON: Thank God there 6 were those like you and I, because the country 7 still remains free and the flag still flies 8 high. 9 But getting back to the point I'm 10 trying to make, are you aware that we are now 11 beginning to duplicate the computer system in 12 New Jersey and New York with Social Security 13 numbers in order to identify those who may 14 perform fraud upon both the state of New Jersey 15 and the state of New York? 16 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir, and 17 that -- that information has been available to 18 both states for years, and we haven't done it. 19 It took something like this 425 people from 20 Newark to bring it up. Yes, that's an excellent 21 idea, but you also know, Senator, that you can 22 go into the city of New York, probably any place 23 else and purchase a Social -- any illegal Social 2237 1 Security number for about $200, and that's how 2 these 115 women stole $45 million from the 3 system. 4 Fingerprints are different, 5 imaging is different. You take that with you 6 wherever you go. You don't need a card. You 7 don't need a Social Security number. You just 8 simply put it in the machine and the machine 9 says you were here before or you weren't. 10 SENATOR WALDON: Wouldn't the 11 Social Security number, computer capability, Mr. 12 President -- if I may continue. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Please 14 do. 15 SENATOR WALDON: -- do the same 16 thing with regard to the numbers? 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: I think it 18 would do a good job, Senator, if it was closely 19 managed and controlled, maybe not quite as good 20 but it would do a good job. 21 SENATOR WALDON: When one 22 retires, Senator Holland, how are your Social 23 Security checks determined in terms of amount 2238 1 and who they are sent to? Is it by your finger 2 print or is it by your Social Security number. 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, sir, but 4 that's done over a 40-month or 40-quarter period 5 or more, and they have time in that period to 6 check to find out if you are, in fact, who you 7 say you are. They don't when you come into the 8 office for 10 or 15 minutes. 9 SENATOR WALDON: If I may 10 continue, Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Please 12 do, Senator. 13 SENATOR WALDON: If tomorrow, 14 Senator Holland, you were to have some 15 revelatory experience which said you no longer 16 want to be in the Senate, but you want to go 17 into a different walk of life and you made a job 18 application, would you necessarily have to be 19 fingerprinted no matter what the job? 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Would I 21 necessarily have to be finger -- I don't know. 22 SENATOR WALDON: But would you 23 necessarily have to give them your Social 2239 1 Security number? 2 SENATOR HOLLAND: Probably. 3 SENATOR WALDON: Without a doubt. 4 SENATOR HOLLAND: For a check, 5 paycheck, yes, you're right. 6 SENATOR WALDON: Absolutely. So 7 the determining factor as to where money goes 8 and where money comes in this country is a 9 Social Security number; is that something we can 10 agree on? 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 12 SENATOR WALDON: Now, for the 13 last time on this issue, Senator Holland, did 14 anyone conduct a survey, to your knowledge, in 15 Buffalo, the area that Arthur Eve serves, or in 16 the South Bronx, the area that Senator Espada 17 serves, or in Cambria Heights, Queens; St. Al 18 bans, Springfield Gardens, Laurelton, Rochedale 19 Village, Rosedale, Queens Village where I serve? 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'll give you 21 all of that, no. 22 SENATOR WALDON: Beg pardon? 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: I give you all 2240 1 of that, no, Senator. But, on the other hand, 2 it's a $24 billion Medicaid and welfare budget 3 and the DSS says, if we implement a system 4 statewide for only $10 million of a $63 billion 5 budget, we can potentially save $100 million the 6 first year. You telling me that you don't want 7 to invest $10 million to save a hundred - 8 potentially save $100 million? 9 SENATOR WALDON: Well, Senator, I 10 would - 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: And not hurt 12 the people who really need assistance. 13 SENATOR WALDON: Well, even 14 though I was asking the questions, I will 15 respond to your question. 16 SENATOR HOLLAND: O.K., I'm 17 sorry, go ahead. 18 SENATOR WALDON: We are a 19 collegial body, and I understand the need to be 20 cooperative. 21 One, I question the savings. 22 Two, I question the rationale when people will 23 be stuck for life with the stigmata of being 2241 1 fingerprinted because they are in a situation 2 they do not wish to be in and they are forced to 3 be fingerprinted as the means of achieving 4 sufficient food for their children, sufficient 5 clothing for their children and even a place for 6 their children to lie down at night. I really 7 don't understand the need to stick them with 8 that stigmata. 9 If I may, Mr. President, on the 10 bill, and I thank you very kindly. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Waldon on the bill. 13 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 14 my colleagues, Senator Holland and I have 15 debated this issue before, and we are at 16 variance this year as we were last year. 17 Senator Holland most graciously came to my 18 district on another matter, and we went all over 19 Queens and Brooklyn, gathering information that 20 would help he and I in our deliberations here. 21 Unfortunately, no valid survey 22 has been conducted in the state in regard to 23 home relief recipients or other people who come 2242 1 to the public dole and are in need to determine 2 their mind set. Do they really voluntarily give 3 their fingerprints? 4 I would like to say this, that in 5 the African American community and the Caribbean 6 American community and the Latino American 7 communities that I represent, and if the Senator 8 wishes to question me I will yield to his 9 questions - 10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Nozzolio, why do you rise? 13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Will the 14 Senator yield? 15 SENATOR WALDON: Certainly. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 Senator yields. 18 SENATOR WALDON: I can't hear, 19 Mr. President. I'm sorry. It's not Senator 20 Nozzolio; he speaks very clearly and very loudly 21 but I can't hear with the cacaphony in the 22 background. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Can you 2243 1 hear now? 2 SENATOR WALDON: Yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Nozzolio. 5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. 7 Senator, are you suggesting that 8 you would volunteer in order to provide adequate 9 data that you are asking this house to have 10 relative -- relative to the communities in New 11 York City, are you suggesting, Senator, that 12 your community should be a volunteer to have a 13 pilot program to examine this before accepting 14 this proposal? 15 SENATOR WALDON: I have no 16 reservations about that, Senator. I think any 17 way that we can gather valid data is a way that 18 we, as a legislative body, should go. Let me 19 remind you that my district might not 20 necessarily be a good pilot project because 21 there are many homes there which cost $500,000 22 and in the area of Cambria Heights, Rosedale, 23 Springfield Gardens, the average house costs 2244 1 about $250,000. 2 To conduct a valid survey, you 3 would have to go to the South Jamaica district 4 which I no longer serve, although it's in my 5 Assembly District and Congressional District, 6 and go out to the Rockaways, but I would say 7 that the people in my area trust me sufficiently 8 that, if I suggest to them that we have a valid 9 survey which would help the people of the state 10 of New York and this legislative body in its 11 deliberations, that we should have it, they 12 would submit to it. 13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, if 14 you would continue to yield. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Waldon continue to yield? He does. 17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you. If 18 we make this applicable to the entire borough, 19 if not the entire city, and if that's the case 20 then, yeah, not make it applicable to the entire 21 state because that's what we're suggesting. 22 SENATOR WALDON: I would have no 23 reservations about that if it were cost 2245 1 effective and I have no reservations about any 2 survey which is fair and equitable which does 3 not single out a certain people, which does not 4 stigmatize a certain people and which, when the 5 results are collated, gives a valid 6 determination as a result of the data 7 gathering. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Waldon, you still have the floor. 10 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 11 President and thank you, Senator Nozzolio, for 12 your questions. 13 I believe that the stigma placed 14 upon people who are forced to be fingerprinted 15 is perhaps beyond the feeling level of many of 16 my colleagues. Simply because I have been black 17 all my life, I have lived and worked in these 18 communities all of my life. I can recall my 19 experiences as the Deputy Commissioner of Human 20 Rights where the subleties of discrimination 21 ruined lives, ruined people in a psychological 22 sense, but perhaps more importantly and validly, 23 my recollection is as a young police officer 2246 1 when I saw people put through the trials and 2 tribulations of racism in this state, not always 3 was the case being that every action that I 4 viewed, and I'm not talking about police actions 5 necessarily, was racism but I can tell you, my 6 brothers and sisters in spirit and in fact, that 7 there are people who tremble in their boots when 8 they have to submit to a fingerprint, not 9 because they've done something wrong but because 10 the history of racism in this country has caused 11 them to know that to be fingerprinted is to be 12 the same as someone who is a criminal and to 13 have that kind of name to accompany them for the 14 rest of their lives. 15 I think we can do it better. I 16 think we can do it with the computerization 17 capability that we have today and just the 18 utilization of Social Security numbers. Also, 19 if the projections were valid, meaning if it 20 were a survey even upstate that actually found 21 people who were fraudulently defrauding the 22 state of New York, I might be inclined to go 23 along with it. But I believe the data shared 2247 1 here today was somewhat skewed, that it was not 2 valid in terms of the money that would actually 3 be saved, and last year you may remember, 4 Senator Holland, I had great disagreement with 5 you regarding the data from Los Angeles. It was 6 not, from my awareness of the information I 7 received, valid and I say the same thing is 8 existent today. 9 I don't know why we have a need 10 to punish a mother who happens to be in a 11 difficult situation and her children by finger 12 printing them. I think we can do it better. I 13 believe that, as a state, we're better than 14 that. I don't see the need to fingerprint 15 people because like when I was a police officer 16 and I willingly locked up many people, I was a 17 very active cop for those who did the wrong 18 things, but their fingerprints and their mug 19 shots remain forever, and this little finger 20 print of a mother on welfare trying to take care 21 of her children will remain with her forever, 22 and I think we can do better than that. 23 Thank you, Mr. President. 2248 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Holland. 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: You know that 4 this is confidential and only within this 5 system, not to be shared with anybody else. You 6 know that? 7 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, I read 8 the information on the bill, and I do know that 9 there are fingerprints of a person only when 10 you've committed a crime and to law enforcement 11 agencies is supposedly confidential, and yet 12 everybody has access to them. If this country 13 were fair in that regard, it wouldn't be a 14 problem, but historically it has been unfair. 15 Thank you, Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 17 recognizes Senator Libous. 18 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr. 19 President. 20 I rise to support Senator 21 Holland's effort today and would wish to talk a 22 little bit about this issue because I think 23 Senator Holland is on the right track and for 2249 1 the life of me, I can't understand why, when we 2 have a program that is actually going to cut 3 down on fraud, that a social program where we're 4 trying to help people cannot be implemented in 5 this state. 6 You know, the statistics are 7 there, and I respect the fact that Senator 8 Waldon has some question with the various 9 statistics but there are statistics and proof 10 that we can talk within our Social Services 11 Department now, and they talk about fraud. Let 12 me just cite a couple to you. 13 You know, they tell you stories 14 of how an individual just recently had a picture 15 on an identification card and used that person's 16 same name and was receiving benefits from two or 17 three different outlets in New York City and 18 they still kept the same picture on the card, 19 but they changed the name each time they went 20 in, and the system continued to produce 21 benefits. If finger imaging -- and I stress 22 finger imaging -- was in place, finger imaging 23 would have prevented that. 2250 1 There's the case where the woman 2 several years ago, there were several women who 3 actually, I believe, took us to the tune of 4 about $7 million who were actually coming up and 5 had different types of Social Security numbers, 6 so the Social Security number system, although 7 we use it for everything in our state and in our 8 country, is not fool-proof. 9 I believe the fingerprinting 10 would be much more fool-proof because I think it 11 is much more difficult to duplicate one's 12 fingerprints, and the whole concept of finger 13 printing, I think people just are relating to 14 the -- to the ink blotter and putting your thumb 15 on an ink blotter and putting that print on a 16 piece of paper. 17 This is electronic imaging. This 18 is a scan, no different than what they do in a 19 grocery store when the package comes through and 20 they put the electronic scanner over it. It is 21 just hard for me to understand that, while we're 22 trying to develop a system, where they're trying 23 to help people and in many cases some of these 2251 1 people cannot help themselves, that if we can 2 save money, as Senator Holland is talking about 3 of up to $100 million, why we don't do it, 4 because why should we allow those who are 5 committing fraudulent acts and committing fraud 6 to continue to do it in our system? 7 The taxpayers of this state work 8 very hard, the working people work very hard, 9 put dollars into the coffers. They pay the 10 taxes that are imposed upon them in this state 11 and all they're asking us to do is lookit, if we 12 have to have social service programs, and we do 13 and I support many of them, then let's make sure 14 those who are cheating the system are taken off 15 of the system. I don't think that's an unfair 16 request. I don't think that's an unfair request 17 at all. 18 I agree with Senator Waldon when 19 he says that many of these people did not choose 20 to be in the situation, but I also disagree when 21 I believe that some of those people choose to be 22 in a situation they'd just as soon be on public 23 assistance and defraud the system and cheat the 2252 1 system and those are the people we want to go 2 after. I don't want to go after an individual 3 who needs public assistance to feed his or her 4 family, that needs public assistance to take 5 care of the children, but I do want to go after 6 the person who is cheating the government and is 7 taking additional supplemental aid out of those 8 pockets of the people who need it and deserve 9 it. 10 This is the real issue here. 11 We're going after frauds. We're going after 12 people who cheat the system. That's the issue. 13 Now, my children were fingerprinted when they 14 were in first and second grade because they said 15 that this would be a good way, God forbid, in 16 case anything ever happened to them kidnapping 17 or abduction, that they could track them down, 18 that they would have some assistance in finding 19 them. 20 We did it. We didn't worry about 21 it. We didn't question it. We knew that those 22 fingerprints would be kept confidential. Again, 23 I strongly disagree with that whole concept. I 2253 1 don't think it's degrading to be fingerprinted. 2 I don't see the problem in it. And again it's 3 electronic imaging. It's an electronic scan 4 that is literally going to keep those people 5 from coming back who are cheating our system. 6 That's the real issue here, and I 7 would just want to conclude my comments by 8 saying that this is something that I know the 9 majority of the people of this state want. I 10 know that this house has worked very hard and 11 passed it last year and hopefully will do it 12 again today, and I only wish that the Assembly 13 would at least put the bill on the floor so that 14 it could be discussed because the real issue 15 here is going after fraud. It's not taking 16 benefits away from people who need it. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: For the 18 members' information, the Chair is keeping a 19 list. There is currently seven Senators who 20 have requested to speak. The list is as 21 follows: Senator DeFrancisco, Senators Padavan, 22 Nozzolio, Galiber, Gonzalez, Smith and 23 Leichter. 2254 1 Senator DeFrancisco. 2 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Thank you, 3 Mr. President. 4 The debate on this bill is much 5 the same as it was last year, and there appears 6 to be an attempt to make it sound like the 7 people on this side of the aisle are somewhat 8 mean-spirited. The poor, the women, children, 9 those who don't have the ability to stand on 10 their own and they need some support from the 11 community, are the targets of this bill. 12 You know, nothing can be further 13 from the truth. There is simply no way that 14 this state can continue to fund the social 15 services programs with the escalating costs that 16 have been occurring over the past several 17 years. Just four years ago, 27 to 28 percent of 18 every dollar spent in the state of New York was 19 spent on social services. This year some four 20 years later, it's 38 percent, approaching 40 21 percent. If that continues without something - 22 without something occurring that's effective, 23 those women and children that we are all 2255 1 concerned about simply are going to have to get 2 less benefits, less assistance and, quite 3 frankly, less people will be eligible because 4 there's only so many dollars. 5 That being the case, we are also 6 concerned about those other needs in the state 7 at that same time, education went from 27 to 28 8 percent in those four years down to 20 percent, 9 education spending in this state, and all of us 10 have the education communities coming to us and 11 demanding more funds so that we can resolve the 12 problem on the front end by education rather 13 than on the back end by providing support for 14 the uneducated. 15 There simply are insufficient 16 funds, so if we are truly concerned about those 17 who are truly in need, we've got to protect 18 those assets that we have and it's as simple as 19 that. I'm not going to say that taking an image 20 off a finger of someone, a photograph that's 21 used in the scanner system is not an impingement 22 on someone's rights. Some people may feel it's 23 wrong, some people may be offended. Some people 2256 1 may, in some way, feel that this is just not the 2 right way that a civilized society should 3 operate. 4 Well, everyone has their opinions 5 on everything, but in every one of these situa 6 tions, it's always the question of balancing, 7 balancing what we gain by it against what we 8 lost by it, and I think the balance is clearly 9 on the side of this process, a finger image, not 10 a fingerprint, to protect the monies that are 11 there to fund those who are truly in need. 12 It's the best system that we can 13 derive so far, and I think it's a system that 14 should go statewide. Being from one of the 15 counties that have had the experimental system 16 in place now, I can state with certainty that 17 those people in Department of Social Services 18 want this to continue; in fact, I've been called 19 many times asking what if the statewide bill 20 doesn't run. Are we going to be able to 21 continue our pilot program next year? We have 22 to know. We're saving money. You at the state 23 won't take over all of our funding of these 2257 1 programs. Therefore, we've got to know because 2 we're losing it in our counties, and I assure 3 them that some form for Onondaga County would 4 take place, and I would certainly hope that the 5 same would be true throughout the state. 6 The momentum is building. The 7 Governor is even talking about it this year. 8 The Comptroller, a cross-section of people that 9 maybe are starting to jell towards the thought 10 that the benefits outweigh whatever of detriment 11 there might be in this particular program. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Gold, why do you rise? 14 SENATOR GOLD: I just wanted to 15 know if the gentleman would yield to a question. 16 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 yields. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, just one 20 comment or question really. Crime is a problem 21 in this state. Everybody acknowledges that, and 22 don't you think it might help us dealing with 23 crime in general if we had a fingerprint bank 2258 1 that encompassed everybody in the state and 2 might help in the investigative processes? 3 Would you be opposed to fingerprinting every 4 citizen? That way, I'm sure the good citizens, 5 the innocent people certainly wouldn't care 6 about giving up their fingerprints if it helped 7 the general issue. But would you support 8 fingerprinting every citizen if we had that bill 9 available? 10 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Well, if a 11 bill was on the floor for that particular issue 12 I would need to see the wording of it, study it 13 and make a decision on it. The issue in this 14 particular case is whether we are going to 15 support this particular proposal. 16 First, fingerprinting everyone 17 wouldn't offend me, wouldn't offend my family to 18 have their fingerprints taken. I had them taken 19 when I went into the military. I was one of 20 those patriotic individuals such as Senator 21 Waldon and Senator Holland that volunteered and, 22 believe me, it hasn't changed my life at all 23 and, if that were proven by studies like we've 2259 1 had in this particular case that this is an 2 effective deterrent, I would consider it, but 3 since it hasn't been placed in a bill form, 4 since it hasn't been studied carefully, I can't 5 give you a definitive answer. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Will you yield to 7 just one more question? 8 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Sure. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Will you consider 10 sponsoring or co-sponsoring a bill that would 11 require everyone in the state to be finger 12 printed? 13 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I would 14 support any bill that would support a situation 15 where law enforcement officials would be 16 benefited and we could cut the crime rate. Now, 17 whether I would support that bill I'd have to 18 see the exact wording of the bill, I'd have to 19 study the bill and then I'd give you an exact 20 answer on that like any other bill. 21 And may I ask you a question, 22 Senator Gold; would you yield? 23 SENATOR GOLD: No. 2260 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 DeFrancisco has the floor. 3 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: O.K. I'll 4 wait until he has the floor. 5 So, in conclusion, I would 6 strongly urge all of us to vote in a bipartisan 7 manner so that there will be sufficient funds 8 for those truly in need, not only in public 9 assistance but also in the other programs that 10 all of us want to fund in this state and support 11 this finger imaging bill statewide. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 13 recognizes Senator Padavan. 14 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you, Mr. 15 President. 16 Late last year or during calendar 17 year 1993, the Cities Committee undertook an 18 initiative involving immigration. Our primary 19 goal was to determine the economic impact on the 20 state, city of New York and its political sub 21 divisions, particularly the city of New York, 22 with regard to this issue. Much of that time 23 centered about four major categories, one of 2261 1 which involved social services. 2 During the course of our work, we 3 conducted a number of hearings and on one 4 particular day we had the benefit of the 5 presence of the Welfare Inspector General, Mr. 6 Elmer Toro, who came before our committee to 7 talk about immigration and its impact on the 8 social services system. His testimony largely 9 dealt with illegal immigration, and I would like 10 to share with the members of this body some of 11 the specific points and conclusions reached by 12 this man whose responsibility is wholly and 13 entirely to deal with welfare fraud. I can't 14 nor would I take the time to read all of what he 15 had to say, but again I'd like to share with you 16 certain parts which I think are pertinent to our 17 discussion this afternoon. 18 It is very, very simple to obtain 19 American documentation, an I.D., thereby facili 20 tating entry into our welfare system. Welfare 21 applicants are seldom investigated. The system 22 is not set up to do this. There was a recent 23 case, Mr. Toro tells us, and I think Senator 2262 1 Holland referred to this, in New York City. 112 2 people were indicted on a major $45 million 3 fraud here in New York City. I believe that up 4 to now 77 have been arrested. All of them were 5 foreign-born. Five of them were illegal aliens, 6 and here's the part I want you to pay attention 7 to. They had in their possession all fraudulent 8 identifications, Social Security cards, 9 licenses, birth certificates, and so on, all of 10 them. 11 So I think the case is made very 12 concisely here that what Senator Holland and 13 others are telling us is that we have a 14 significant problem in the city of New York and 15 other parts of the state where you can get any 16 document you want and, according to the Welfare 17 Inspector General, tap into our social services 18 system without any effort. 19 Now, regard to the specific 20 issue, and again Mr. Toro talked about, I quote, 21 "They're entitled to welfare, Medicaid, so on. 22 A person is home free because most of the time 23 the intake person is not really qualified to 2263 1 read that documentation and to tell whether that 2 person should be investigated and, of course, we 3 don't have the investigative bodies in place. 4 "Last year," and here is the 5 part that I think is particularly pertinent, 6 "through the efforts of the Senate, we received 7 what is called finger imaging, a permanent 8 identification system, and we're in the process 9 of implementing that. We must be able to have a 10 system in place that most applicants -- elimin 11 ating the very, very obvious -- should be 12 investigated because what happens is they can go 13 to Bronx County today, they can go to Rockland 14 County, to Nassau -- Nassau-Suffolk the next day 15 and open up three different cases by just 16 putting a deviation of the name, the spelling or 17 just changing one digit in a Social Security 18 system. If we had fingerprinting in place, I 19 believe that would eliminate that almost 20 entirely." 21 Now, again, I repeat, this is 22 input from a state office, from an appointee who 23 does a job that we put him in place to do and 2264 1 these are his conclusive observations. INS 2 tells us there are a half a million illegal 3 immigrants in New York State, 80 percent of them 4 in the city of New York, and the Inspector 5 General is telling us, citing just one case, 6 that all of them have fraudulent documents from 7 A to Z and all of them tapped into the system 8 with ease and that finger imaging would, I 9 quote, "entirely eliminate that problem." 10 It seems to me that faced with 11 that kind of input and all the other things that 12 Senator Holland has worked so hard to generate, 13 the reports from other jurisdictions, that we 14 have no choice but to do this, because if we 15 don't, we deny all of the people of the state, 16 those who legitimately are in need of public 17 assistance, our educational system, all of the 18 various areas which we now at this point in time 19 are struggling to respond to with limited 20 resources, we have an obligation, I think, to 21 see that illegal aliens and others are not 22 ripping us off, ripping off the taxpayers and 23 taking those funds and using them in a fashion 2265 1 that we do not wish them to be used for. 2 Thank you, Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Mendez. 5 SENATOR MENDEZ: I was wondering 6 if he would yield for a question. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Will you? 8 Would you yield to Senator Mendez? 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 10 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator Padavan, 11 you mentioned that there are 500,000 immigrants 12 in - 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Illegal 14 immigrants. 15 SENATOR MENDEZ: -- New York 16 City. 17 SENATOR PADAVAN: New York 18 State. 19 SENATOR MENDEZ: In New York 20 State, and 80 percent of these illegal aliens 21 are in the city of New York. You had also 22 mentioned that there were, in the case that you 23 mentioned there were about a hundred and -- a 2266 1 hundred and -- or so illegal aliens, so that the 2 percentage -- wouldn't you say that the 3 percentage of illegal aliens in this instance in 4 the city of New York as compared to the total of 5 80 percent of $500,000 is very small, wouldn't 6 you say? 7 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, no, I 8 don't. I mean we have a city of roughly seven 9 and a half million people and by -- and again 10 that information was provided to our committee 11 by the Immigration & Naturalization Service, as 12 a very conservative estimate. There are other 13 estimates that far exceed 500,000, go even 14 beyond that, but take the very conservative 15 estimate and if 400,000 of them are in the city 16 of New York, which is roughly four out of five, 17 80 percent, out of a city population of seven 18 and a half million, I would say that's a 19 significant number. 20 SENATOR MENDEZ: No, but, 21 Senator - 22 SENATOR PADAVAN: Now, but what 23 Mr. Toro -- just to answer your question fully, 2267 1 Senator, what Mr. Toro referred to was 112 that 2 were caught, but the instructive part of what he 3 provided here was that they all had fraudulent 4 documents, Social Security cards, birth 5 certificates. You may have read in the paper 6 just last month where they arrested nine 7 individuals in Queens who had a factory in a 8 house where they were churning out all of these 9 documents, the printing operation, selling them 10 for hundreds of dollars to individuals who were 11 using them for a variety of reasons, including 12 social service applications. 13 SENATOR MENDEZ: But, Senator, 14 the one I'm referring to is, if there are 120 or 15 so illegal immigrants who were caught with 16 fraudulent papers and who have abused the 17 welfare system, 129 from 500,000, that is a 18 small percentage. 19 SENATOR PADAVAN: No, Senator, I 20 have to correct you. You're wrong. 21 SENATOR MENDEZ: That is a - 22 SENATOR GALIBER: Point of order, 23 Mr. President. Point of order, Mr. President. 2268 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Galiber, why do you rise? 3 SENATOR GALIBER: I'd like to 4 hear the debate, but if the question is asked 5 and the person not given the opportunity to 6 answer it and vice versa, without interruptions, 7 we're missing a very important part of this 8 debate. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The point 10 is well taken, Senator Mendez. 11 Senator Mendez, would you run 12 your questions and answers through the Chair, 13 please? 14 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Padavan continues to yield. 17 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes. The 18 question is a very simple one. Now, you can 19 answer it yes or no. The question is, would you 20 say that 129 people who are illegal aliens and 21 were caught with false documents, 129 out of 22 500,000, wouldn't you say that that is a small 23 percentage? 2269 1 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, I 2 tried to correct your question because I can't 3 answer it in the manner which you presented it. 4 I -- I presented -- shared with you the 5 testimony from Mr. Toro. There were 112 people 6 arrested. Five of them were illegal aliens, 7 O.K. 112 people arrested for fraudulent 8 applications for social services totalling $45 9 million. Five of them were illegal aliens, but 10 what Mr. Toro tells us is that the illegal 11 aliens had in their possession fraudulent 12 documents. 13 You see, the point of the matter 14 here is that of the 112, all but five were not 15 illegal aliens, they were residents, but they 16 were participating in fraud. That's what 17 Senator Holland was sharing with you, and I 18 pointed out based on his input that five of them 19 were illegal aliens, but the significant part of 20 that testimony is that they all were able to 21 obtain fraudulent documents from Social Security 22 cards to birth certificates without any trouble 23 at all. 2270 1 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Mendez, are you asking Senator Padavan to 4 continue to yield? 5 SENATOR MENDEZ: No, he didn't 6 satisfy my question but anyhow, I think that the 7 reason why - 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Mendez, there are other people - 10 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: -- who 12 are on the list. If you'd like to speak, I'd 13 like to put you on the list. 14 SENATOR MENDEZ: Just let me 15 mention something: The reason that I asked that 16 question is that there is a rebirth of 17 nativistic feelings, and illegal aliens as well 18 as immigrants of any -- of any country are being 19 viewed upon in the wrong light, so that we shall 20 speak about that at a later point. 21 But nevertheless the percentage 22 of those illegal aliens that are using the 23 system in the wrong way, 112 out of 500 illegal 2271 1 aliens, that is a very small percentage. 2 Thank you, Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 4 you, Senator Mendez. 5 The Chair recognizes Senator 6 Nozzolio. 7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. 9 On the bill. Mr. President, my 10 colleagues, I rise in support of Senator 11 Holland's bill to establish a finger imaging 12 program in an effort to ferret out welfare fraud 13 and abuse. 14 What this bill does not do should 15 be emphasized at the beginning. This bill is 16 not meant in any way, shape or form to be 17 punitive. It's not meant to stigmatize. It's 18 not meant to punish. It's not meant to 19 embarrass. 20 What it is meant to do is to 21 bring a handle on a welfare system that has 22 already been discussed during the course of this 23 debate as being far out of whack. What this 2272 1 bill does do is focus on one single program of 2 welfare, and that is the home relief program, a 3 program that New York still maintains, the 4 taxpayers of this state still subsidize, a 5 program that most states have already 6 eliminated. 7 Of those states that do have home 8 relief, all of the states but New York have put 9 a limit on the home relief program. Connecticut 10 says a nine-month limit. Minnesota, New Jersey 11 and Ohio say six-month limits. Pennsylvania 12 says three-month limits. New York says you can 13 be on home relief for your entire life. 14 We're focusing on one single 15 aspect of the welfare system, one program, home 16 relief, and asking each of our colleagues to 17 come together and support a program that will 18 provide proper identification, will be able to 19 ferret out those who are defrauding the system, 20 who, even under our very liberal standards, 21 allow fraud and abuse to take place. Senator 22 Holland mentioned those, mentioned those with 23 eloquence, in detail. 2273 1 I'm not going to amplify that, 2 but I would like to talk about the issue of 3 fingerprinting, an issue that many who oppose 4 finger imaging for those participating in 5 welfare, stated that it stigmatizes and 6 punishes. 7 I think the facts state the 8 contrary. I counted up in our laws of the state 9 of New York, there are approximately a hundred 10 incidents in our own laws that require finger 11 printing for identification purposes, at least a 12 hundred statutes in our body of law that require 13 people participating in various activities of 14 this state to participate in. 15 First, in order to obtain a 16 license or a benefit or a profession, they are 17 to participate first after identifying 18 themselves through finger imaging. I think it 19 is extremely telling that, in one section of our 20 law we actually require those mothers and new 21 born infants who supply identification, section 22 10 (c) of the New York Code 405.21 requires the 23 footprints of every child born in this state to 2274 1 be supplanted on the birth certificate in order 2 to identify. 3 There's no stigma in that use of 4 identification, and there's no punitive intent. 5 It simply is an identification tool. Hundreds 6 of other elements resulting in over a million 7 people each year being voluntarily finger 8 printed in this state. We need to remove the 9 political stigma that those who don't want any 10 change in the welfare system are trying to 11 establish. 12 I believe you're well 13 intentioned. I believe you're sincere in your 14 characterizations, in your own mind, but I don't 15 believe you're doing any service to the 16 taxpayers or to those who are receiving welfare 17 because those who are receiving welfare should 18 be doing it only under honest procedure. If 19 those who are receiving welfare are doing so 20 dishonestly, I would hope that you would be the 21 first to tell them to get off the welfare roll 22 so that those who are on the roll can ensure 23 that they'll receive continued benefit. 2275 1 Ladies and gentlemen of this 2 house, we need desperately to reform the welfare 3 system. There are many, many ways to reform 4 that system. There are many proposals that 5 Senator Holland, as chairman of the Social 6 Services Committee, has recommended of. We will 7 debate those throughout the course of this year 8 in an effort to bridle the costs of the largest 9 single growing program in this state budget from 10 26 percent of the state resources five short 11 years ago to 42 percent of our state resources 12 today -- an unconscionable growth, one that you 13 all must recognize needs reform. A way to stop 14 some reforms -- to stop some abuses in one part 15 of the program is to support Senator Holland's 16 bill, a bill that takes a good step in the right 17 direction of ferreting out fraud and abuse. Not 18 to punish, not to stigmatize but to kick out 19 those who are trying to cheat the system. 20 How could you vote against this 21 bill? How could you favor cheaters taking 22 welfare money away from those who truly need it 23 and truly deserve it? 2276 1 Mr. President, that's why I 2 support this measure and urge my colleagues to 3 do the same. 4 Thank you very much. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Ladies 6 and gentlemen, the chair continues to have a 7 list. We're an hour in the debate. There are 8 seven people remaining who have asked to speak: 9 Senators Galiber, Gonzalez, Leichter, Hoffmann, 10 Wright, Smith and Rath. 11 The Chair recognizes Senator 12 Galiber. 13 SENATOR GALIBER: Thank you, Mr. 14 President. 15 I listened very carefully to this 16 debate last year and certainly this year, and I 17 think there is a sense of need for reform. I 18 don't think anyone within the sound of my voice 19 would say no, we don't want reform. We've been 20 trying to do this for some time, and those who 21 would suggest that those on this side are 22 liberals -- and I'm not quite sure what that 23 means any more, these labels that we talk about 2277 1 -- but let me step back in history just a bit 2 and talk about an occasion, Senator Holland, 3 when I worked with W. T. Smith when we had the 4 temporary commission on welfare -- social 5 services/welfare because it wasn't even social 6 service in those days. 7 We went out to a place called 8 Lansing, Michigan, and they had a computerized 9 system out there where everyone had a number for 10 whatever the services may be, food, whatever, 11 and third-party beneficiaries were paid in 90 12 days. People were not cheating because they had 13 an identification number. They called it into a 14 central area so that fraud, little as it is or 15 great as it may have been, was avoided. 16 We came back and then Governor 17 Rockefeller was the governor of this great state 18 of ours, and we suggested that he look into the 19 possibility of computerizing, and those of us on 20 this side from the city of New York, persons, 21 volunteered and suggested -- not volunteered, 22 suggested to the Governor that to use New York 23 City as an example, and the Governor agreed and 2278 1 somewhere along the line, interestingly enough, 2 I have an old expression if it's only 57 people 3 in the world that live long enough, they're 4 going to come back, and he had a contract or an 5 agreement with a fellow named Perot in Texas - 6 same guy -- he was going to set up the 7 computerized system in the city of New York or 8 state of New York. From here to there something 9 happened, and it was canceled out. 10 We are willing to reform. What 11 has suggested -- been suggested here and in this 12 report that you have, we don't have enough time, 13 we don't have enough time. We've had this 14 experiment and there's been recommendations made 15 to extend it for another period of time. That 16 seems reasonable. This was back in 1973 when we 17 wanted, in the city of New York to go on 18 computers. 19 So to suggest to some of us that 20 we are soft on cheats, soft on fraud, soft on 21 those persons who will beat the system, not so, 22 not so. We are as concerned, Senator, as you 23 are. 2279 1 It's the state of mind that's 2 involved here, and that's why we can't come to 3 any agreement because it's a state of mind. Why 4 do you want to do this? In your heart's heart 5 are you talking about the few cheats that you 6 found if they were cheats? 7 Can we speculate and say, because 8 people don't show up, that they, if they had 9 showed up, there would be cheats? And the 10 answer is no. 11 Can we suggest that some believe 12 in America, believe in the Constitution, believe 13 in basic -- basic rights and are offended - 14 offended by asking them to be fingerprinted? 15 There are an awful lot of people in that 16 category, Senator, and the recommendations that 17 you have read them as I have, suggested that we 18 need some more time on this, and I know of your 19 sincerity, and I don't have to massage you to 20 get my point across because I know where you're 21 coming from. 22 The point of the matter is that 23 we do not have a valid test. We've had some 2280 1 experiences in California; you've got the 2 reports, you know them better than I do. I read 3 them all; you know them because it's part of 4 your study, and you've done a great job in 5 studying them, with little results. 6 We're talking about people who, 7 because of the unemployment, may no longer need 8 it and because they don't show up doesn't mean 9 that they're cheats. It means that the indexes 10 have changed, the employment rates have changed, 11 so there's that possibility. 12 Senator, it's a state of mind, 13 and we can't change that. We can change 14 practices, but not states of mind. 15 We know of a horrible, horrible, 16 horrible historical occasion in Germany during a 17 horrible, horrible, horrible regime where they 18 put yellow arm bands on people to identify them 19 and they suggested this is not too bad, it's 20 only for this particular purpose. History has 21 recorded what happened in those instances. 22 We have wrapped, as I have said, 23 yellow ribbons around trees here in America to 2281 1 bring our youngsters back home who fought so 2 valiantly for this great country of ours. State 3 of mind, Senator. 4 What are you really after? Not 5 you personally. What are you trying to get at? 6 You save six hundred-and-some-odd thousand 7 dollars or six hundred-and-some-odd thousand, 8 six hundred-and-some-odd thousand dollars in an 9 experimental program. That's merely a member 10 item, merely a member item. 11 SENATOR SMITH: I'll take it. 12 SENATOR GALIBER: For someone on 13 your side of the aisle. And I would quickly 14 take it if I had the opportunity on my side of 15 the aisle. 16 Why do we want to go through this 17 by suggesting because we think we have saved six 18 hundred-and-some-odd dollars -- six hundred-and 19 some-odd thousand dollars, that those persons 20 are cheats and we're going to save $100 21 million? $100 million. The state of mind, 22 Senator, what I'm making reference to. 23 Senator Moynihan and I are very 2282 1 good friends, and he got into some difficulty 2 some years ago along with another fellow that 3 wrote MELTING POT and talked about "benign 4 neglect", not about all those persons who came 5 to this great country, came to this great 6 country and merged into a system without the 7 technology. 8 Now, we see we have technology 9 and somebody came over with false credentials. 10 Do I justify it? The answer is no, but the 11 melting pot became part of people coming into 12 this country and the cheats that we're talking 13 about are few in number. We want them as bad as 14 you do. But let me tell you what you do. 15 You do a political thing on us. 16 You suggest now that if you don't vote for my 17 piece of legislation which hasn't been truly 18 tested, has not been truly tested, that you are 19 in favor of those persons who are cheating the 20 system. All of a sudden, I hear from your side 21 of the aisle that you want to increase the 22 benefits of those persons who have not been - 23 their benefits have not been increased for a 2283 1 good six or seven or eight years. 2 Concerned about it. These 3 cheats, this six hundred-and-some-odd thousand 4 dollars that we've allegedly saved, you know how 5 far that would go to increase the benefits of 6 those persons who are on social service? That's 7 where you're coming from, Senator, with this, 8 your side of the aisle, and I'm suggesting to 9 you that this certainly is not the way to go. 10 We certainly have to go in the 11 right direction. Senator Moynihan, as I 12 mentioned before, in 1993 or '94, is not as bad 13 a guy as he used to be as far as his position 14 was concerned. Some understood, some 15 misunderstood wherever he's coming from. 16 The fact of the matter is that we 17 have been saying for a long, long time, that we 18 need this kind of reform. But they're 19 recommending here, give it another year. You'll 20 be back next year, I'm sure of that. Give it 21 another year. Follow the recommendations. 22 Someone said, well, fingerprinting, what 23 difference does it make? Want to fingerprint us 2284 1 all? I agree with you so let's all get 2 fingerprinted. 3 Now, the state of mind, but once 4 there's hesitation in saying "let me read the 5 bill." Don't read the bill, all of us be 6 fingerprinted. No objection. It's a state of 7 mind. What is your intent? 8 And that's the problem. I have a 9 wife, Senator, and we've been married 47 years. 10 She may be listening, and may not be listening. 11 She said, "I'm a provider, I worked 30 years in 12 the social service department, fingerprint me. 13 What's wrong with them being fingerprinted?" We 14 have a difference of opinion as to how we should 15 approach this. State of mind. 16 You want the cheats caught, yes. 17 I want them? Yes. Do we want them? Yes. No 18 question about it. We object to the process. 19 We object to not being fair. We object to you 20 not giving an opportunity to see whether it 21 really works. This thing can wind up the cost 22 administratively, can cost more ultimately than 23 the benefits. 2285 1 Now, if you want to create some 2 jobs, and we're saying, Well, we can't build any 3 more prisons, but if you want to create some 4 jobs, let's pass this piece of legislation. 5 Let's fingerprint. Let's look for the cheats. 6 Let's look to go back to the old system. Let's 7 go into people's houses, look and see whether 8 there's bedroom slippers underneath the bed. 9 Let's go through that whole process again. 10 We got rid of it. It's a simple 11 proposition, Senator. All we have to do is go 12 by the recommendations and study it. One more 13 time, note ad infinitum, another occasion. One 14 more six months, one more year. No problem. No 15 one is hurt by it as far as the fingerprinting 16 is concerned. 17 I agree with Senator Gold, say 18 let's all get fingerprinted, let's all get 19 fingerprinted. No problem, but to fingerprint 20 again is dangerous -- dangerous when you start 21 isolating, and someone said, Well, it will only 22 be used for social service purposes. 23 That's not so, Senator. That's 2286 1 your intent. That's what you believe, but 2 that's not so. Any fingerprinting, any 3 technology attached to it, goes in a central 4 file in Washington, never to be returned; never, 5 never to be returned, whatever the case may be. 6 So, Senator, I'm voting against 7 this bill and I'm saddened somewhat because the 8 inference being that if we vote against this 9 bill that somehow we go back to our districts 10 and they'll say you're soft on the social 11 service people. 12 I haven't got that concern. I 13 haven't got a courage badge with oak leaf 14 clusters. I just believe in certain things as 15 you do, and the state of mind here, I suspect, 16 is not the proper state of mind. It's not the 17 yellow ribbon wrapped around a tree, but it's a 18 yellow ribbon wrapped around a country for 19 identification purposes. 20 That, in my judgment, is the 21 state of mind. I think there's another way to 22 do it, and I think this is a bad piece of 23 legislation, well intended, but we can go back 2287 1 and study it for another term as was 2 recommended. 3 Senator, will you yield for just 4 one question? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Holland, do you yield? 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Senator does. 10 SENATOR GALIBER: Waiting for 11 direction. 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: O.K. 13 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, I've 14 been advised that we were going to ask for 15 a - 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Holland, he's reconsidered his thought. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Present. 22 SENATOR PRESENT: Can I request 23 of the Minority, we're going to recess for one 2288 1 half hour until 2:35. I would ask that the 2 Chair retain the list, if Senator Galiber would 3 like to be first on the list when we start. 4 SENATOR GALIBER: I wouldn't have 5 it any other way. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Gold, do you have an announcement? 9 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. I just want 10 to be very candid. I mean, Senator Present, 11 everybody will agree not to quote me on this, 12 has been an absolute delight to work with but up 13 to -- and I don't want to mislead anybody, we're 14 breaking for the purpose of a conference. I 15 don't know how long it will be. I hope we can 16 be within the half hour, but I don't want it 17 coming back at me that I somehow committed the 18 Minority Leader to a half hour. 19 So I appreciate that we're 20 breaking for the conference, Senator. We'll do 21 it as quickly as we probably can. 22 SENATOR PRESENT: All right. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2289 1 Senate stands in recess for one half hour. 2 SENATOR PRESENT: Until 2:35. 3 (Whereupon at 2:06 p.m., the 4 Senate recessed.) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2290 1 ... At 4: 31 p.m.... 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 3 recognizes Senator Present. 4 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 5 I would like to announce we're about to 6 reconvene the session. 7 Senator Galiber will have the 8 floor, and I would urge all members to head 9 towards the chambers so we can get started. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Senate will come to order. 12 Senator Present. 13 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 14 we recessed at about 2:05, started out for a 15 half hour. We extended that now a considerable 16 length of time, so I would suggest we start the 17 session and take up the bill we left in the 18 middle of a debate and read off the names who 19 you have on your list in the order that you've 20 taken them, and any additional ones that may 21 have been added. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 23 you, Senator Present. 2291 1 The Chair would would remind the 2 members that we are currently debating Calendar 3 Number 233. That debate started at 12:50, and 4 was adjourned temporarily at 2:05 so we're an 5 hour and 15 minutes into the debate. 6 Senator, when we recessed, 7 Senator Galiber was on the floor. I would call 8 on Senator Galiber but I don't see him here. We 9 still have one, two, three, four, five, six, 10 seven people on the list that the Chair is 11 running. 12 The next would be Senator 13 Gonzalez. Not seeing Senator Gonzalez, Senator 14 Smith. Senator Smith not being here, Senator 15 Hoffmann. 16 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr. 17 President. 18 I'm happy to rise in support of 19 Calendar 233, and I'd like to take the 20 opportunity to just share briefly with my 21 colleagues the perception as one central New 22 Yorker. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2292 1 Hoffmann. 2 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I'm sorry. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: May I 4 interrupt you, please? 5 SENATOR PRESENT: May I interrupt 6 you, Senator, just for a moment? 7 Mr. President, may I have the 8 last section of this bill read and allow Senator 9 Goodman to vote? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Clerk 11 will read the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Goodman. 19 SENATOR GOODMAN: Aye. 20 SENATOR PRESENT: Withdraw the 21 roll call and continue with the debate. 22 Thank you. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The roll 2293 1 call is withdrawn. 2 Senator Hoffmann, thank you for 3 your indulgence. 4 SENATOR HOFFMANN: You're very 5 welcome, Senator Present. 6 One of the two counties involved 7 in the experiment of the finger imaging project 8 is Onondaga County which I represent, along with 9 Senator DeFrancisco, and I would just like to 10 share with my colleagues the very positive 11 reaction that the people in Onondaga County who 12 were involved with this project experienced. 13 There were a large number of 14 people who chose not to become re-certified for 15 their benefits rather than go through finger 16 imaging. Although, there can be no clear 17 explanation in each one of the instances why the 18 individuals chose to voluntarily withdraw from a 19 program, the assumption has been made by 20 Onondaga County officials that some individuals 21 who were involved in fraudulent activities 22 recognized that the finger imaging would have 23 very definitely exposed them, and that rather 2294 1 than go through the process of exposure and the 2 subsequent criminal charges, they simply faded 3 quietly off into the distance of the night. 4 I think this shows an advantage 5 for several reasons: First of all, it 6 eliminated those fraudulent individuals from the 7 welfare roll in this instance. It also 8 alleviated the need for a protracted 9 investigation of welfare fraud. Again, a 10 considerable savings in tax dollars for the 11 people of Onondaga County. We're used to 12 reading in the newspapers and seeing on 13 television about once a year or once every 18 14 months, a big herding up of people who are 15 arrested for various types of welfare fraud. 16 There's usually a dollar figure associated with 17 the amount of money that has been allegedly 18 stolen from the taxpayers through this 19 procedure, and umpteen individuals are herded 20 through the criminal justice system. Their 21 pictures are flashed across the 6:00 o'clock 22 news in the evening and eventually some of them 23 are sentenced to jail or are subject to other 2295 1 criminal sanctions before their being -- before 2 they are ultimately removed from their number of 3 welfare programs. 4 All of this costs the taxpayers 5 money. All of it is a drain on the whole legal 6 process. All of it wastes resources which could 7 be better applied in other areas in terms of 8 investigations, in terms of criminal justice 9 and, obviously in terms of the welfare process 10 itself. 11 Now, I know that many people have 12 mistakenly used the phrase "fingerprinting" 13 instead of finger imaging, and I would like to 14 make my position absolutely clear where 15 fingerprinting is concerned. I believe I owe 16 that to the people of the 48th District and for 17 the enefit of a few of my colleagues who may 18 still be debating in their own minds how they 19 would like to pursue this issue. 20 I have a very strong position 21 against the use of fingerprints as a routine way 22 of maintaining track of American citizens or any 23 sub-category of American citizens for the 2296 1 purpose of making those citizens suspects in a 2 criminal activity, and I emphasize the use of 3 the word "routine" because I know that there are 4 several instances where people have been 5 fingerprinted for a specific purpose, gun 6 registrations being one, the draft being 7 another, now the volunteer military service, of 8 course, having replaced it, but I am very 9 concerned whenever I hear about a large category 10 of individuals simply being routinely 11 fingerprinted so that they can be regarded as 12 suspects without ever having been in any way 13 linked to a criminal activity. 14 For that reason, I have voted 15 against a number of measures when they were 16 brought to this floor, such as fingerprinting 17 school bus attendants. I think it's an 18 imposition to small towns in my district which 19 hire school bus attendants, many of them senior 20 citizens, housewives, people who are temporarily 21 unemployed from other positions or people who 22 have the ability to do a part-time position in 23 addition to their other full-time work. I think 2297 1 it's very unfair to people who apply for a job 2 to be routinely cast in the light of suspects in 3 a criminal activity and subjected to 4 fingerprinting on having their fingerprints go 5 into a major computer operation, hooked in 6 possibly nationally, where they will routinely 7 be screened every time a crime is committed and 8 fingerprints are scanned, and they, in effect, 9 are suspects. I don't think that that's right. 10 I do not believe in stigmatizing 11 any category of people and charging them of a 12 criminal activity or suspecting them of a 13 criminal activity for no just cause. 14 The situation with the finger 15 imaging situation is very different. The finger 16 imaging, first of all, is non-invasive. It has 17 none of the stigma of the five prints on your 18 right hand, five prints on your left hand in ink 19 on paper. It has none of the historic 20 association with criminal fingerprinting. It is 21 no ink. It is a simple scan. The analogy has 22 been made with the bar code scanner in the 23 grocery store, and I think that's very 2298 1 applicable. There is nothing that leaves a 2 person who has been through finger imaging with 3 any reminder on his or her anatomy that they 4 have been subjected to something that we 5 associate with criminal activity, namely, the 6 old-fashioned ink style fingerprinting, nor are 7 those fingerprints part of a national data bank 8 which would then be used in scanning for 9 suspects for crime. 10 The purpose of the finger imaging 11 is limited to the protection of the welfare 12 system to prevent fraud in the welfare system, 13 and thereby to ensure that the maximum amount of 14 resources available in this state to people who 15 are in need go to those people in need and not 16 be allowed to be diverted by fraudulent 17 activities to people who are not in need. 18 I don't think that this is a 19 tremendous infringement on the rights of people 20 who collect welfare in one form or another in 21 New York State, and I can tell you that in 22 Onondaga County we have not had any widespread 23 opposition to the experiment. Most people are 2299 1 proud of the fact that we have now demonstrated 2 a savings in Onondaga County of approximately 3 $500,000 during six months of the experiment 4 with an additional uncalculable amount in 5 avoided costs because of people who chose not to 6 apply for welfare benefits in Onondaga County 7 knowing that they would have been detected for 8 being fraudulent. 9 I read a number of years ago an 10 interesting book called "King of the Gypsies", 11 and it described how in the 1970s or the '60s, a 12 particularly creative family that knew a great 13 deal about criminal activity, had managed to 14 utilize the welfare system to a multi-million 15 dollar benefit by having members of that family 16 simultaneously apply for welfare benefits in 17 several different cities and in several 18 different states, and with great detail, the 19 whole procedure was described whereby women, 20 usually young women with several children, would 21 apply simultaneously in Boston and New York, in 22 one or more boroughs, in Philadelphia, Trenton, 23 Newark, other cities, and then they would fly 2300 1 around to these cities, sometimes on first class 2 seats, they would fly around on a designated 3 date for the re-certification process and during 4 that time, they would go through whatever was 5 routinely required of them to maintain their 6 certification, and they would collect hundreds 7 of thousands of dollars a month in illegal 8 welfare benefits. 9 Now, granted, those cases may be 10 few and far between, but when they occur, they 11 sometimes occur with that degree of violation of 12 the system, and the commensurate violation of 13 needs of the people who should truly be getting 14 welfare benefits. 15 I believe that if we can continue 16 to protect a diminishing source of funds in this 17 state -- our pot of money is not bottomless and 18 it is being pressed in all directions at all 19 times -- our responsibility is to those people 20 who truly need welfare benefits in this state. 21 If we can protect our ability to meet those 22 needs by preventing people from taking 23 fraudulent advantage of that system, I believe 2301 1 we should do that, and since we are able to do 2 that very clearly without violating the rights 3 of welfare recipients by not doing anything that 4 casts any criminal aspersion on them, that I 5 believe we have that obligation. To do any less 6 than that, becomes an unfair statement to the 7 taxpayers of this state. We cannot continue 8 taxing people of this state and not take 9 reasonable and prudent actions to protect our 10 ability to serve the needs of those who truly 11 need it and to prevent other people from taking 12 unfair advantage of the system. 13 Thank you, Mr. President. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, 16 Senator Gold, why do you rise? 17 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, we 18 had broken for a conference, and while I 19 understand and was here, Senator Present 20 indicated it would be a half hour. I indicated 21 at that point just as respectfully, that I could 22 not guarantee the half hour. 23 Now, this matter is a - 2302 1 obviously has budget implications. It's part of 2 the budget process. We are in the middle of 3 that process, so I'm told. I read in the 4 newspapers that last Friday, there was a big 5 announcement that the budgets were -- were 6 completed and I expected to come up here Tuesday 7 smiling, vote and go home and do some business 8 in the district, but apparently it's going on 9 and -- right now, and I don't know whether 10 there's any urgency to push forward with this 11 debate, but I can say quite accurately, that the 12 conference that my -- that the Democrats were 13 involved in deals specifically with this issue. 14 We are not asking you to wait upon us because we 15 are discussing other matters, and I would 16 respectfully ask my distinguished colleague from 17 Jamestown to once again put us at recess so we 18 can conclude this conference. 19 It is specifically dealing with 20 this issue. I would not like to have to, you 21 know, engage in other tactics because we -- I 22 think Senator Present and I have been able to 23 operate on a level that makes me proud to work 2303 1 with him, but, I mean, I cannot be in a position 2 where I have to be out here holding the fort 3 down while other things are happening within my 4 conference. 5 Now, we do not control or 6 regulate the Majority conferences, and I'm 7 asking for the courtesy to be able to conclude 8 what we are doing in our conference with regard 9 to this issue. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Present. 12 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 13 I have just been advised that somebody higher 14 than either of us have reached an agreement so 15 we'll stand at ease for another ten minutes. 16 SENATOR GOLD: I want the record 17 to indicate that nothing has changed. Senator 18 Present is still the ultimate gentleman. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 record will so reflect, Senator Gold. Thank you 21 for placing it there. 22 The Senate will stand at ease for 23 ten minutes until five minutes of 5:00. 2304 1 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at 2 ease. ) 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Present. 5 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 6 a few moments ago, approximately ten minutes 7 ago, I announced that the leaders had agreed for 8 another ten-minute recess. The ten minutes has 9 elapsed, so we will start no later than five 10 minutes after five. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Stand in 12 recess momentarily. 13 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at 14 ease. ) 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Senate will come to order. The Chair will 17 remind the members that we're continuing the 18 debate on Calendar Number 233. We have spent 19 about an hour and 25 minutes of time on debate. 20 There are currently three members who have 21 indicated a desire to speak, Senator Leichter 22 and Senator Rath at this point, so I would call 23 -- the Chair recognizes Senator Leichter. 2305 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, 2 considering the late hour and knowing that my 3 colleagues' names who succeed me - 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Leichter, you waive. Senator Galiber, why do 6 you rise? 7 SENATOR GALIBER: I thought I had 8 something until all this confusion about the - 9 I was in the middle of something when someone 10 called me some place else. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You did, 12 Senator Galiber. If Senator Leichter would like 13 to yield the floor to you again, I'll recognize 14 you. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Galiber to pick up the debate where he left 18 off. 19 SENATOR GALIBER: Mr. President, 20 I was just prepared to ask a question, and I 21 think it's all been said. One question for 22 Senator Holland and then we can go back. 23 Will Senator Holland yield to a 2306 1 question? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Holland, will you yield? 4 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 does. 7 SENATOR GALIBER: I think on page 8 3, at the top, it starts off, I'd guess at the 9 bottom of page 2 on this question of sanctions 10 imposed unless the local service -- social 11 service district has verified the results of 12 automated fingerprint identification system by 13 means of a manual, I'm not sure, conducted by a 14 person who is qualified to perform that 15 identification. 16 Was that taken out for some 17 reason or the other? 18 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't know 19 the answer to the question, Senator. Can you 20 rephrase it? 21 SENATOR GALIBER: In other words, 22 there was some verification. They printed them 23 and then we had to verify it and then there was 2307 1 some, I guess, structure set up for that verifi 2 cation, and there was a cost factor. I'm not 3 concerned about the cost factor as much as you 4 were checking for identification purposes 5 inasmuch as it wasn't a perfect identification 6 system, and someone indicated that portion was 7 taken out of the bill. 8 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't know. 9 Let me find out for you. 10 SENATOR GALIBER: All right, 11 that's fine. Thank you, Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Leichter. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 15 having heard everything that I ever wanted to 16 know about this bill and more, I'm going to 17 yield in the hope that others will agree with me 18 that the hour is late. Thank you. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Leichter passes. Senator Wright. 21 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I 22 rise in support of finger imaging. I think the 23 issue is restoring the integrity and credibility 2308 1 of the social service system that we're talking 2 about this afternoon. 3 Clearly, the people of this state 4 have lost confidence in our ability to maintain 5 the credibility of that system. Each day and 6 each time you see new headlines, you see stories 7 documenting the fraud and abuse, it's simply 8 greater documentation that this system does not 9 work, and I think that's well recognized not 10 only in this state and throughout the state, but 11 is being recognized nationally in terms of the 12 call for reform of the social service system. 13 New York State ought to be in the 14 lead of doing the same thing because unfortun 15 ately, as these cases of fraud and abuse 16 continue to be identified, continue to be 17 documented, they end up calling into question 18 the legitimate programs that we're delivering in 19 this state, the individuals who have legitimate 20 needs, and I think that's become the area, 21 unfortunately, that we're losing our focus on. 22 We need to focus on people and 23 individuals with legitimate needs and make sure 2309 1 that we're rendering credible cost-effective 2 programs to meet those needs. 3 Finger imaging is a way of 4 maintaining the credibility and restoring the 5 credibility that the taxpayers who are paying 6 the bills demand of the system. We're now at a 7 point that the chief auditor, if you will, the 8 Comptroller of this state, has acknowledged that 9 the fraud is so rampant that there are 10 additional controls needed. The same applies in 11 terms of the Inspector General. 12 In my conversations with local 13 officials, and we've taken the opportunity to 14 sit down with our local elected officials, be 15 they elected or be they the individuals who are 16 appointed to administer the program, and all of 17 them indicate there is a need, a compelling need 18 for greater integrity in the system. 19 We need to restore the confidence 20 of the people who are paying the bills for 21 this. Finger imaging is but one step in that 22 right direction. As a result, I call on all of 23 my colleagues this afternoon to take a step 2310 1 forward to reform the social services program 2 and support finger imaging. 3 Thank you, Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 5 recognizes Senator Rath. 6 SENATOR RATH: Yes, Mr. Chairman. 7 I rise also in support of the finger imaging 8 bill. The debate this afternoon has gone much 9 as we could have anticipated and all of the 10 points are extraordinarily valid, particularly 11 the point that we want to have the dollars 12 available for the people who truly do need 13 public assistance. 14 But take a walk with me, if you 15 will, back through the calendar pages several 16 months ago. Two national magazines had some 17 messages across the front pages of those 18 magazines about New York State, MONEY Magazine 19 first, Forbes Magazine second. None of us liked 20 the messages that came across the front pages of 21 those magazines, and now I ask you, my 22 colleagues: Can we afford to send another 23 message across the pages of any of the 2311 1 publications in this country when we are looking 2 so hard to restore New York State to the status 3 that it once held? Can we afford to send a 4 message that we are willing to allow fraud in a 5 New York State system of public welfare? 6 38 percent of the state's -- 38 7 percent of the state budget is used for this 8 system, 38 percent of our $62 billion. A 9 conservative estimate says that the savings 10 could be between one and a half and two and a 11 half billion dollars. That's a lot of money. 12 Public assistance clients, it's 13 been testified all afternoon, the numbers have 14 been pointed out, 93 percent of them don't 15 care. They think it's fine. Well, if they 16 don't care if they have finger imaging, I don't 17 know why we would be as concerned. 18 Public assistance clients have 19 always had to identify themselves one way or the 20 other. They have a contract with the state of 21 New York and with the taxpayers. The contract 22 is, we help them out while things aren't going 23 so well for them in their life. Everyone has a 2312 1 contract with the state of New York for a 2 driver's license. We have a photograph taken 3 when we have a driver's license submitted to us 4 and we have a contract. We're responsible for 5 the laws of the state of New York when we drive 6 the roads of the state of New York, and I would 7 submit to you that the people that we give 8 dollars to when things aren't going well in 9 their personal and private lives, that for a 10 contract with them to have a finger -- a picture 11 of their finger, that is not something that's 12 unnecessarily intrusive. 13 I think we need to have this good 14 faith contract. I think the message needs to be 15 not a message that will shatter the public 16 confidence in the state of New York regarding 17 our willingness to continue a circumstance that 18 has proven to be fraudulent, but the message 19 needs to be New York means business. We mean 20 business not only for business, but we mean 21 business for the people who need our help. We 22 legitimize their needs and we take the fraud out 23 and save billions of dollars. 2313 1 Thank you. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 3 any other member wishing to speak on this 4 particular matter before Senator Holland closes? 5 Senator Smith, Senator Montgomery do. 6 Senator Smith. 7 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. 9 Would Senator Holland yield to a 10 few questions? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Holland, do you yield? The Senator does. 13 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you. Could 14 you give me a profile of a home relief 15 recipient? 16 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't think 17 so, Senator. Could be, usually, they're without 18 children, could be male or female, could be - 19 could be in good physical shape, might not be, 20 might have an abuse problem, might not. 21 SENATOR SMITH: Well, would you 22 say that we know that they're without children? 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Most of them 2314 1 are, the vast majority. 2 SENATOR SMITH: But they are 3 receiving aid for themselves and not for the 4 children because for children it's AFDC, am I 5 correct? 6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Correct, yes. 7 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you. Could 8 you give me an estimate of how many -- approxi 9 mately how many home relief recipients there are 10 through the state of -- throughout the state of 11 New York? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: From a report 13 dated November 1993, 310,864. 14 SENATOR SMITH: How many AFDC 15 clients do we have throughout the state? 16 SENATOR HOLLAND: Approximately 17 80 percent of those home relief recipients are 18 from the city of New York, also. 19 SENATOR SMITH: You said 20 approximately 88 percent of the home relief 21 recipients are from the city of New York, but I 22 asked how many AFDC recipients do we have in the 23 state of New York? 2315 1 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yeah, I'm 2 sorry. I was concentrating. Ask me once more. 3 SENATOR SMITH: How many home - 4 AFDC recipients do we have in the state of New 5 York? 6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Approximately 7 1.5, 1.2 million. 8 SENATOR SMITH: So this is a very 9 small percentage of the public assistance rolls? 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: It's about a 11 quarter. 12 SENATOR SMITH: I'm -- I 13 apologize for not being in the chamber earlier 14 when you were giving some of your statistics, so 15 I'd like to know when they did the original 16 survey, how many recipients were there initially 17 in each of the counties of home relief? 18 SENATOR HOLLAND: In both 19 counties, Senator, there were 4772. 20 SENATOR SMITH: 4742? 21 SENATOR HOLLAND: And '-72. 22 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you. Could 23 you tell me at the end of this little survey or 2316 1 whatever you want to call it, or test, how many 2 did we have on record? 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Do you know the 4 numbers, so I don't have to research them? 5 SENATOR SMITH: No, I don't have 6 any of this. I wouldn't ask you a question if I 7 had the answer. 8 SENATOR HOLLAND: The only thing 9 I can tell you, Senator, is the report says that 10 146 cases were closed in Onondaga. 11 SENATOR SMITH: 146 out of how 12 many? 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: 41-something, 14 41-something. 15 SENATOR SMITH: You know that 16 percentage? 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: 4772, four 18 percent. 19 SENATOR SMITH: So that's also a 20 small percentage? 21 SENATOR HOLLAND: It's smaller 22 than 25 percent, a lot smaller. 23 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you very 2317 1 much, Senator. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Montgomery. 4 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you, 5 Mr. President. 6 I just want to make a very brief 7 statement. I think that this bill that Senator 8 Holland has introduced is certainly his answer 9 in an attempt to address what is a major crisis, 10 I think, for us as it relates to services to 11 poor people, and that is the perception that 12 there is fraud and the actuality that there is 13 fraud, and consequently the loss of support for 14 those programs, and so we want to rebuild that 15 support with the public, especially the tax 16 paying public, and I support that. I'm in total 17 agreement with it and, in fact, one of my heroes 18 in government is the DSS Investigator Kuriansky 19 because every time he exposes and closes a 20 Medicaid mill in my district, I am extremely 21 pleased, and it's especially pleasing when I see 22 the figures that are saved for taxpayers, and my 23 assumption is that when we save money in that 2318 1 way we can expect that the return will be that 2 those dollars can go, hopefully, for legitimate 3 services, especially health care, quality health 4 care for people in my district. 5 So, Senator Holland, I certainly 6 compliment you along those lines. I do, 7 however, worry that we mislabel this particular 8 attempt as welfare reform, and I would not want 9 my constituents to think that I voted for 10 legislation under the misimpression that I'm 11 doing welfare reform, because I think that 12 welfare reform has to be related to employment. 13 We can not reform a welfare 14 system in this state or nation unless there is 15 an employment reform in the sense that we have 16 to be engaged in generating jobs that people who 17 are currently on welfare can, in fact, access 18 and we need to include with welfare reform an 19 educational component. Access to education is 20 the avenue that will mean for many people who 21 are on welfare right now, it will mean for them 22 in four or five years or less that they can move 23 up and off of welfare permanently, and it means 2319 1 child care because the majority of people who 2 are on welfare have children, are parents of 3 children. 4 That is essentially for welfare 5 clientele, that we hopefully want to spend more 6 time looking at in terms of our response to 7 changing the system, improving it and, in fact, 8 moving people off of welfare permanently. 9 So I will, while I definitively 10 support an attempt -- any attempt to remove 11 fraud from the system because I think that it 12 hurts poor people more than anybody to have 13 service dollars misdirected and used fraud - 14 fraudulently or otherwise for things unrelated 15 to service, including real estate and a whole 16 host of other ways that we see social service 17 and health dollars siphoned off. 18 So I'm supporting this in 19 principle. I'm not going to vote for it because 20 I think that there is a larger statement that 21 needs to be made and we need to be very clear 22 about that statement, and that is we want to 23 empower people to get beyond the need for 2320 1 depending on the state for their existence. 2 It's demeaning. It's stigmatizing and in the 3 climate that we live in today in our state and 4 nation, it is politically incorrect to be on 5 welfare, and I more than anybody else have that 6 sense and that feeling for the people who are. 7 There may be a small percentage of people who do 8 not expect to move off, but most people, in 9 fact, do. 10 So, Senator Holland, I applaud 11 you. I understand what you're trying to do, but 12 I must say to you that it is very disappointing 13 and I certainly cannot support this body making 14 this statement in that small way which, in my 15 mind, undercuts what the overall intent is and 16 that is to move people from -- from dependence 17 permanently. 18 Thank you, Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 20 recognizes Senator Dollinger. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 22 President, I'll be very brief in view of the 23 long debate that's already transpired and the 2321 1 number of comments which have been made, many of 2 which I agree with. 3 Just to offer a philosophical 4 view to my colleagues, when I went to law school 5 about a decade and a half ago, I can remember 6 those old discussions about a man's word is his 7 bond, and that lasted, I guess, for the most 8 part from probably 10,000 B.C. up until maybe 9 the mid-15th century, and then we all of a 10 sudden got enamored with signatures. We signed 11 documents with signatures and your signature 12 became your bond. And then for the last 35 or 13 40 years, your Social Security number became 14 your bond, the number that identified you. I 15 guess now we're moving into that age when finger 16 imaging and bar codes and scanners will identify 17 all of us at some time in the future, and I 18 think in many ways you see a sense of this is 19 that we long for that time long ago when a 20 signature or your word could be your bond when 21 you applied for welfare benefits as well. I 22 recognize that that time is gone. 23 I also recognize that this bill 2322 1 and the finger imaging that's encompassed in it 2 may have some purpose of discouraging people 3 from applying for welfare benefits. I regard 4 that as a real tragedy, but it also seems to me 5 it has some value based on the study that's been 6 done in Onondaga and Rockland County in 7 deterring fraud, and I agree that that's a 8 laudable purpose. When I voted against this 9 bill last year, I did so because I didn't think 10 it would deter fraud. I'm now convinced that 11 there's some minor value, some benefit that 12 could be gained by going to this system, but I 13 stand here to offer just two other 14 observations. 15 One is I'm really tired of 16 hearing the argument that we have to restore the 17 credibility or the integrity of programs that we 18 have for the poor. It's my view that those 19 programs for the poor are no more dotted with 20 fraud, frankly, than our programs for the 21 wealthy or income tax returns or S & L crises. 22 The concept of fraud is not something that is 23 solely confined to those who are poor, in 2323 1 poverty. 2 The credibility of this system, 3 in my judgment, the lack of credibility in this 4 system is only partly due to fraud. It's also 5 due to the fact that politicians, for the last 6 20 years, have been going around and saying, we 7 ought to beat up on poor people. We're going to 8 take -- we're going to say that the system 9 doesn't work, that it can't work, that the poor 10 are more distrustful than the rest of the 11 population, that the war between taxpayers and 12 the poor has been fanned by politicians for 13 political advantage. I think that that's 14 absolutely outrageous. 15 It also seems to me, and I 16 welcome the thoughts from the other side of the 17 aisle about the concept of welfare reform. I'd 18 simply point out that this side of the aisle has 19 been trying to reform a whole bunch of other 20 things that are desperately in need of reform 21 that we haven't taken a good look at in the last 22 20 years, things that we should reform right in 23 this chamber, right in the way we organize 2324 1 ourselves and the way we function. 2 My hope is that the wind of 3 reform that seems to blow so pervasively with 4 respect to the welfare reform will also be a 5 part of the wind of reform in this chamber as 6 well. 7 I'm convinced that this bill 8 accomplishes in some small way a reduction of 9 fraud and, for that reason, based on the fact 10 that the study demonstrates that there has been 11 a reduction in fraud, I'm going to change my 12 vote this year and vote in favor of this bill 13 but I also hope that the types of programs that 14 Senator Montgomery talked about, I hope that we 15 look at those programs, look at a broader way in 16 which we can deal with the poor and hopefully 17 allow the poor to do the one thing that we all 18 want, which is to rise into the middle class and 19 become a part of the American dream. 20 The solution lies in a 21 complicated way and not simply by asking them 22 for their fingerprint but giving them the 23 education, the character and the integrity as 2325 1 human beings so that they can become a part, a 2 true part of our society. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 4 recognizes Senator Markowitz. 5 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Thank you. 6 Thank you very much. 7 First off, I want to compliment 8 Senator Montgomery. I believe Senator Holland 9 approached the issue the way that it ought to be 10 viewed, and that is that all of us from the most 11 liberal Democrat to the most conservative 12 Republican are all united in eliminating waste 13 and fraud, not only in public financing 14 programs, welfare programs but, frankly, in 15 every program in which state taxpayer dollars 16 are being used. None of us are in favor of 17 fraud and abuse. 18 Having said that, there are few 19 members of the state Senate that can actually 20 say that they lived on welfare. I can say I did 21 many years ago, not the 1990s for sure, but I 22 know, and I think, Senator Holland, one has to 23 be sensitive to the fact that people that are on 2326 1 welfare, by and large, the great majority of 2 them, don't do so voluntarily, don't do so 3 voluntarily, and for many, it's the end of the 4 road. Frankly, it's the end of the road. 5 Where we have failed in our 6 system is to not recognize that those that are 7 at the end of the road that we have an 8 obligation to bring them back, to give them 9 hope, to give them a chance to rebuild their 10 lives or build their lives for the first time so 11 that they can become fully productive members of 12 our society. 13 I would eagerly vote for a finger 14 imaging program if the Senate Majority would 15 come back to this chamber and also offer finger 16 imaging for food stamp providers, finger imaging 17 for Medicaid doctors and health delivery 18 providers, anywhere where the state monies are 19 being provided by the recipient and the 20 provider. 21 If finger imaging was done to 22 eliminate the fraud and to target in on tax 23 returns, especially on tax returns in those 2327 1 industries and corporations, health care, that 2 we know according to the state Tax Department 3 have a higher incidence of fraud and abuse, then 4 for some of us, we would be able to go back to 5 the districts we serve and be able to tell poor 6 people that we are not just isolating them for 7 finger imaging, but rather the state Legislature 8 is beginning a massive attempt at eliminating 9 fraud across the board. 10 I would eagerly want to vote a 11 bill like that, Senator Holland, I really really 12 would, and I'm hoping yet that a bill will come 13 to the chamber for us to support. Until that 14 time, until there's a bill that really balances 15 it out, I really am still constrained to have to 16 vote no on this not because we want to see fraud 17 continue, but rather because we want to see 18 fraud minimized and eliminated to the greatest 19 degree possible by all those that abuse it. 20 Thank you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 22 recognizes Senator Gonzalez. 23 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Thank you, Mr. 2328 1 President. 2 I think that coming also from a 3 poor district and being poor, I think that as I 4 stand here before you today, that my Ph.D. is 5 poverty, hunger and desperation from the streets 6 of my district, and the one thing is that always 7 welfare recipients are the target of everything 8 when it comes down to the budget since I've been 9 here since '89. We've always had cuts and 10 always they're the targets of whatever it comes 11 down to money. I think that this bill, to me 12 right now, we're in a matter of negotiations, 13 the leadership is under negotiations. I find 14 this bill as a one-house bill. 15 There is language that should be 16 in this bill, language that pertains that if we 17 do say how do we make training programs or jobs 18 available with the money that we save for the 19 people that are on welfare, so that will be 20 welfare reform. So it needs a few more add-ons 21 to the bill so that it could be comprehensive 22 and we could call it a first step to welfare 23 reform and, in that vein, I don't have a problem 2329 1 with fingerprinting. I'd rather fingerprint for 2 jobs. I don't have a problem with finger 3 imaging, but I think that we have to do a little 4 bit more comprehensively, not just a patch 5 Band-Aid approach, and with that I will vote no 6 on this bill, but I will vote for a bill that 7 will have all the things that I have suggested 8 that comes with the balance, with the training 9 programs, for the jobs to get them off welfare 10 and make them work fair, and that's where I 11 would stand. 12 Thank you, Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 14 any other member wishing to speak on this bill 15 before Senator Holland closes? Hearing none, 16 the Chair recognizes Senator Holland. 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 18 I just want to reiterate that there's no one, I 19 don't think, in this chamber certainly on this 20 side and the other side as well, I know, who 21 wants to take anything away from people who need 22 assistance. The clients are not even -- this is 23 not trying to take anything away from the 2330 1 clients. New York State has the most 2 progressive social services program, the most 3 expensive social services program in the nation 4 and there has been no discussion about taking 5 anything away from anybody except the crooks, 6 and that's what we're trying to do. 7 If we can get them off the rolls, 8 just the bad guys, not the people who need 9 assistance, we can take that hundred million 10 dollars or whatever it is, five million, a 11 hundred million, whatever it is, and give it 12 back to the taxpayers of this state and/or give 13 it to the clients if that's where you or we 14 think it should go. 15 I just want to tell you two more 16 things. First, I have a documentation 17 examination, Investigator's Guide to False 18 Documentation, put out by the Human Resources 19 Administration, Bureau of Fraud and 20 Investigation, the city of New York. First page 21 reads: People -- "many use false identification 22 for some of the following reasons: To conceal 23 their status as illegal aliens, to commit 2331 1 welfare fraud by making identity and/or 2 misrepresenting identity factors, to issue bad 3 checks, to hamper identification of law 4 enforcement agencies." Four issues: Welfare 5 fraud is number two. Then it goes on to to say 6 that "it is estimated by the permanent 7 subcommittee on investigations that the impact 8 of false identification on the United States 9 economy is $24 billion annually, and the state 10 of New York is one-twelfth of that 11 approximately." 12 We talked a little bit with 13 Senator Waldon about Social Security card 14 numbers. On the fourth page, they say, "the 15 Social Security card has become a widespread 16 means of identification in New York State. As 17 its use as an identifier has grown, so has the 18 opportunity for its misuse often to fraudulently 19 obtain unauthorized benefits. The social 20 service -- the Social Security card was never 21 intended to be an identification document," and 22 that's put out by the city of New York. 23 This is -- this is the opinion of 2332 1 Judge Jack Weinstein on the cases that we talked 2 about earlier, and I just want to read you a 3 little bit of it. He starts out with, "These 4 cases involve poor people, primarily women, from 5 the Dominican Republic who stole from the 6 federal government by using false names to open 7 fraudulent welfare cases. In its identification 8 the government uncovered some one thousand such 9 false cases." One thousand. Though each case 10 was identified individually and has its own file 11 number, the matter is properly considered as a 12 single event for the purposes of public policy. 13 So viewed, it is the largest criminal case in 14 terms of numbers of defendants ever brought and 15 processed in this district. 16 "The U. S. Attorney and his 17 staff as well as the city Department of 18 Investigations has done what they could to 19 encourage structural change within the state 20 institution that administers the stolen funds in 21 order to prevent further abuse. Nonetheless, 22 there is little indication that this effort has 23 ended the threat of welfare fraud in this city. 2333 1 The selection of roughly one hundred individual 2 wrongdoers for federal prosecution in a city 3 where, according to the 1990 census, over 13 4 percent of households received public assistance 5 from funds administered by city, state and 6 federal government, is a poor substitute for 7 meaningful reforms of the public institutions 8 that permitted the theft. 9 "The authorities in charge 10 implemented no adequate procedures by which 11 identities could be verified. False 12 identification documents such as birth 13 certificates were readily obtainable. The 14 government offices to which these fraudulent 15 papers were submitted did not even ascertain 16 whether a given Social Security number, in fact, 17 corresponded to a given name. Welfare 18 recipients can be readily fingerprinted by 19 automatic photographic methods to prevent the 20 use of false identities to open fraudulent cases 21 as is now done in Los Angeles." 22 I could go on and on. This is a 23 great opinion by Judge Weinstein. You should 2334 1 read it. Just let me say finally, we're not 2 trying to take anything away from poor people 3 who need assistance. We are trying to take the 4 thieves out of the system. This finger I.D. 5 will do that. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The clerk 7 will read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11 roll. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Slow roll. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Slow roll 14 call has been requested. Are there five 15 Senators in agreement with this? There are. 16 Clerk will call the roll slowly. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush. 18 SENATOR BABBUSH: No. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno. 20 (There was no response. ) 21 Senator Connor. 22 SENATOR CONNOR: No. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook. 2335 1 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Daly. 3 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator 5 DeFrancisco. 6 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo. 8 SENATOR DiCARLO: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator 10 Dollinger. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 13 (There was no response. ) 14 Senator Farley. 15 SENATOR FARLEY: Vote aye. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Galiber. 17 (There was no response. ) 18 Senator Gold. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, 20 have my name called. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Gold to explain his vote. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I 2336 1 believe that there are a lot of legitimate 2 legislative issues that may or may not become 3 law but which are entitled to a forum. Where I 4 disagree with the Majority is the issue or the 5 manner in which you create a forum. 6 There is a committee system which 7 is really not used for anything but politics in 8 this house, where we could have that forum. 9 There are hearings we could use. When it came 10 to "three strikes you're out" debate a few weeks 11 ago, I indicated how it was incredible to me 12 that that issue was not receiving hearings or 13 some attention. 14 We broke today for a rather 15 substantial conference for this side of the 16 aisle, and it was a conference which indicated 17 to me something I already knew and that is that 18 people on this side of the aisle are very, very 19 serious about the issue of welfare reform for 20 many reasons, the least of which is not -- I get 21 that two double negatives -- that credibility 22 among the public is very important. 23 There are people in need in this 2337 1 state, and we should be helping them and not 2 making them the scapegoat, the enemy, the 3 strawman in every debate that comes up when it 4 comes to money. Unfortunately, that's what 5 happens. Rather than having an open forum on 6 what you do to help needy people in this state, 7 we have debates such as this. 8 Now, we are in the middle of a 9 budget process. We voted last week to take care 10 of state purposes and the next day after we went 11 home, I read in the newspapers that there was a 12 legislative agreement, so I said to my wife and 13 kids, I guess we're going to have an easy week 14 next week, I'll go up Tuesday morning, by noon 15 we'll be voting upon this agreed-upon package, 16 I'll see you for dinner Tuesday, and I'll be 17 back at work in my office at work on Wednesday. 18 What happened? All I heard since 19 I've been up here, that there's bickering over 20 this, but this one is not getting this piece of 21 this, but there was an agreement, but this one 22 has got to get a little bit of this, and the 23 answer is there is no agreement, there are no 2338 1 bills. 2 So why are we talking about this? 3 Why are we talking about this? I will tell you 4 that, if we have a budget which does as it's 5 supposed to do, first of all, give the $60 6 million slush fund back to the people and do 7 some other things, and that as part of that 8 process, we have reform, as part of that process 9 we have Medicaid take-over which is the real 10 issue here -- it's the real issue, and it will 11 help every one of the counties and towns and 12 cities throughout this state -- then I will tell 13 you that the concept of imaging I do not 14 necessarily find as offensive. 15 Matter of fact, a couple weeks 16 ago, we had a printing bill and to the eyebrow 17 raising of some of my colleagues, I voted for 18 that bill. I don't find that offensive as and 19 of itself, but what is offensive is in the 20 middle of a budget debate to spend hours picking 21 on the poorest people in our society and those 22 in the greatest need, because at some point 23 again, they will be the scapegoat of all the 2339 1 problems of this state. 2 So, Mr. Speaker, I am not going 3 to participate in that. It's unfair. I couldn't 4 look myself in the mirror tomorrow when I shave 5 and I'm not prepared to go to the doctor with 6 all the blood there would be if I don't look in 7 the mirror. So, Mr. President, I am voting no. 8 I tell you that, if this comes 9 back to us as part of a budget plan, a plan that 10 is really here now, with money for the city of 11 New York that is necessary for our Republican 12 mayor -- I don't say yours, I say our Republican 13 mayor -- and we take care of the needs of the 14 towns and counties in Medicaid take-over, and if 15 this is part of an intelligent program, I might 16 be able to support it, but I'm not getting 17 involved in the cheap nonsense politics of a 18 majority party putting out these bills that they 19 think are going to posture them through to some 20 election victory in November. It's not the way 21 to operate this city and the government. 22 I vote no. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2340 1 Gold in the negative. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator 3 Gonzalez. 4 SENATOR GONZALEZ: No. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman 6 voting in the affirmative earlier today. 7 Senator Hannon. 8 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator 10 Hoffmann. 11 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Explain my 12 vote. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Hoffmann to explain her vote. 15 SENATOR HOFFMANN: The date on my 16 calendar says Wednesday, April 6th. The people 17 in my district realize that we were supposed to 18 have a budget in place on April 1st. Very 19 difficult to justify why we would have spent 20 this entire afternoon debating and voting on a 21 one-house bill when we obviously have much more 22 pressing business at hand. 23 I've not been involved in a 2341 1 single committee meeting today, Finance or any 2 of the other committees on which I sit, to 3 discuss substantive matters of concern to the 4 taxpayers of this state that deal with the 5 budget. 6 I'll be hearing from county 7 executives asking questions about the Medicaid 8 take-over. I'll be hearing from the mayors of 9 Syracuse and Rome asking about the enhancement 10 of revenue sharing. I will be hearing from 11 people asking about business tax cuts, all of 12 which they will have read something about in the 13 newspaper, and yet there are no open discussions 14 going on on any of these subjects in this 15 Capitol today. 16 I will vote for this measure. I 17 believe that it's an appropriate first step to 18 eliminating much welfare fraud. I don't think 19 it's invasive to the people who are in the 20 welfare system, because it is finger imaging, 21 not fingerprinting. I make that distinction 22 because I will continue to oppose measures which 23 screen large numbers of people and treat them as 2342 1 supposed criminals by demanding their 2 fingerprints at the time they apply for jobs or 3 their departments subject them to such 4 fingerprinting, and I mention specifically 5 school bus attendants which was a bill that has 6 come up in this house several times, and I 7 believe will probably come up in the future. 8 But I will vote on this one not because I like 9 the process that we're engaged in but because I 10 believe the issue has some merit. 11 I just wish I didn't have to be 12 embarrassed once again to go back to my district 13 and tell them how we have wasted our time and 14 squandered their money. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Hoffmann in the affirmative. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Holland. 18 SENATOR HOLLAND: Explain my 19 vote. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Holland to explain his vote. 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: One thing 23 Senator Gold said there were no hearings and 2343 1 Social Services has held hearings all over the 2 state of New York including the city of New York 3 asking people what they think about finger 4 imaging and other Medicaid and welfare reforms. 5 The people believe this will save them money and 6 take the bad guys off the system. We have had 7 hearings. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: How do 9 you vote? 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Why do 13 you rise, Senator Gold? 14 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I 15 don't know what point I'm making, a point of 16 this or that, but I want the record clear that 17 whatever my comments were I did not mean any - 18 anything personal about Senator Holland who I 19 believe has a sincere interest in the issue and 20 may have done the work necessary. 21 I was talking about a budget 22 process and I just wanted that clear on the 23 record. 2344 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thanks, 2 Senator Gold. 3 Continue the roll. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson. 5 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Jones. 7 SENATOR JONES: Yes. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger. 9 SENATOR KRUGER: Yes. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 11 SENATOR KUHL: Yes. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack. 13 SENATOR LACK: Aye. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin. 15 SENATOR LARKIN: Explain my 16 vote. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Larkin to explain his vote. 19 SENATOR LARKIN: For about the 20 past four and a half hours off and on we've been 21 debating this bill. It's a bill we talked about 22 last year. It's a bill that's been talked about 23 all over the state. Talked by the Governor, 2345 1 talked about by the mayor of the city of New 2 York, talked about by county executives across 3 the state. 4 Joe Holland has given us a lot of 5 leadership in this not to hurt anybody as it 6 seems some people on the other side of the aisle 7 want to carry this bill as, something to hurt 8 somebody. This bill is not carved out to hurt 9 anybody. This bill is to address an issue, and 10 the issue is to make sure that those individuals 11 who are to receive dollars in assistance are 12 truly eligible and have been validated. 13 Mr. Waldon said earlier some 14 hours ago that he talked about identification 15 and about the service. That's an excuse for 16 what we really want to be doing is addressing an 17 issue. I've heard every excuse here of why not 18 to do this bill today from last year's budget to 19 this year's budget to this good to that bad. 20 Why don't we stop fooling around 21 with it? It's an issue that will help us. It's 22 an issue that Commissioners of Social Services 23 want. It's an issue that people who are 2346 1 legitimate and who want to get public assistance 2 don't feel ashamed of. Some people have said, 3 you want to move people off AFDC. You will put 4 people off home relief. How will you put them 5 off unless they're ineligible? 6 It was already talked today about 7 the $45 million fraud in November 1992. That 8 fraud would not have occurred had we had finger 9 imaging. So I think what we ought to do is to 10 stop all of this bashing about when it really 11 means that some of us don't want to address the 12 issue and don't want to cooperate in helping us 13 streamline the public assistance issue and maybe 14 recapture dollars and ensure that the dollars 15 that we provide truly go to those in need and 16 not the greedy. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: How do 18 you vote, Senator Larkin? 19 SENATOR LARKIN: I vote yes. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Larkin, yes. Continue the roll. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle. 23 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye. 2347 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2 Leichter. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: No. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy. 5 SENATOR LEVY: Aye. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous. 7 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese. 9 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President, 10 to explain my vote. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Maltese to explain his vote. 13 SENATOR MALTESE: As Senator 14 Larkin has indicated, for the last number of 15 hours at a time when we're considering a budget 16 very important to the people of our state we've 17 spent discussing an issue that seems 18 self-evident to the constituents we represent. 19 Is it any wonder that people back 20 in the districts think that in some cases when 21 they hear what goes on in the Legislature they 22 use the phrase that the inmates have taken over 23 the asylum? It's amazing that Wednesday at this 2348 1 stage in our state's fiscal crisis, in our 2 state's taxing and overburdening the citizens of 3 the state, rather than alleviating their burden, 4 can spend this much time on a program that has 5 already proven itself and, Mr. President, we 6 didn't need the pilot program in Onondaga and 7 Rockland to prove that this program works. 8 Common sense dictates that it works. Common 9 sense and experience indicates that people are 10 going to defraud a system. There are some 11 people who will try to get away with whatever 12 they can and what belongs to others. 13 Now, are we penalizing those 14 persons who are compelled by virtue of their 15 economic circumstances to subject themselves to 16 finger imaging? I do not believe so, Mr. 17 President. 18 I have many persons eligible for 19 home relief and public assistance in my 20 district. To this moment, I have not received a 21 single communication evidencing any problem with 22 this bill or with the system. I commend Senator 23 Holland for leading this fight. I believe this 2349 1 is what the people in my district and the people 2 in New York State have elected us to do is to 3 save money and to have those monies go to the 4 people that deserve them. 5 Mr. President, I vote aye. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Maltese votes yes. 8 Continue the roll. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 10 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marino. 12 (Affirmative indication.) 13 THE SECRETARY: Aye. 14 Senator Markowitz. 15 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Explain my 16 vote. Senator Maltese.... 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Markowitz to explain his vote. 19 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Senator 20 Maltese, I want you to know that I concur and I 21 think most of us do here. Most of us that are 22 voting no on this bill concur with what you're 23 saying. What we want to do is, rather than 2350 1 begin only in one category of fraud, all that at 2 least I'm suggesting is to extend this program 3 to various categories of potential fraud. 4 Rather than isolate one group, let's look at the 5 major areas and the state Tax Department knows 6 all too well that are involved with fraudulent 7 use of state monies and let's put into place not 8 only the finger system that you're suggesting 9 but other safeguards to really, really prevent 10 to the greatest degree possible abuse of our 11 monies and, because you're right, Senator, there 12 are people and corporations and individuals that 13 will steal any opportunity they can. There's 14 not a question about it. Unfortunately, that 15 exists too much in our society. Our job in 16 government is to eliminate in every possible way 17 that potential among some people, and I believe 18 we have it within our ability. 19 We have the technology; all we 20 need is the will to do it beyond just this one 21 subject, but across the board. So until that 22 bill comes here, I vote no. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2351 1 Markowitz in the negative. 2 Continue the roll. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez. 4 SENATOR MENDEZ: No. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator 6 Montgomery. 7 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula. 9 SENATOR NANULA: Yes. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nolan. 11 (There was no response. ) 12 Senator Nozzolio. 13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President, 14 to explain my vote. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Nozzolio to explain his vote. 17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President, 18 I spoke on this bill about four hours ago. 19 Don't wish to repeated myself but wish to 20 address comments made by Senator Markowitz. 21 Senator, I agree with you that we 22 should be looking at all aspects of the delivery 23 system. We should be looking at doctors, we 2352 1 should be looking at dentists. We should be 2 looking at nurses. We should be looking at 3 those who are participating in the delivery 4 system to present a balanced process. 5 All those professions now require 6 fingerprinting, Senator, according to New York 7 State statute. 8 Now, that's just another reason 9 why I believe this measure is fair, honest, 10 direct and comprehensive, and I applaud Senator 11 Holland for bringing it to the floor for our 12 consideration today. 13 I vote in the affirmative. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Nozzolio in the affirmative. 16 Continue the roll. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator 18 Ohrenstein. 19 (Negative indication. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: No. 21 Senator Onorato. 22 SENATOR ONORATO: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2353 1 Oppenheimer. 2 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Yes. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan. 4 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Pataki. 6 SENATOR PATAKI: Yes. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Paterson. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: No. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present. 11 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 13 SENATOR RATH: Yes. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 15 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President, 16 explain my vote. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Saland to explain his vote. 19 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President, I 20 have heard some of those who have spoken in 21 opposition to this bill make reference to the 22 fact that this has been a rather lengthy and in 23 ordinately long debate, a debate which they feel 2354 1 really serves little or no purpose. 2 I would suggest to them that, if 3 my recollection is correct, two and a half to 4 three of the hours that have kept us here on 5 this floor have been to accommodate the 6 conference which was called by our colleagues on 7 the other side of the aisle in order to discuss, 8 assumedly, I believe the representation was the 9 respective merits of this bill. 10 I've also heard some people who 11 have said amongst other things that while they 12 embrace the concept embodied here it isn't broad 13 enough. I think that's a disingenuous as the 14 argument at least in some respects perhaps as 15 the argument about us being responsible for a 16 lengthy debate here. 17 The reality is that were we to 18 have come forward with a bill as broad as 19 perhaps many if not most of us would like we 20 would have been accused of being insensitive and 21 how could we, particularly with regard to ADC 22 have contemplated such a cruel and heartless 23 thing when we were dealing with the likes of 2355 1 women and children. 2 This isn't a matter of picking on 3 the poor. This isn't a matter of trying somehow 4 or other to harp on those in the greatest of 5 need. This is a matter which is basically one 6 of fairness. The real issue that could be 7 debated subsequently is the issue of what will 8 we do with the money that we save by denying 9 benefits to those who set out with intention to 10 cheat the system, intention to make sure that 11 those who are in need don't get their full 12 benefits. 13 That's a legitimate debate. Do 14 we use that money for real property tax relief 15 because 50 percent of this money that's being 16 spent is being spent in our localities by our 17 local governments, so when the state Social 18 Service Department talks about a $46 million 19 saving you're talking a $92 million savings to 20 the taxpayers of the state of New York. 21 Legitimate issue. You want to 22 argue whether it should be saved and given back 23 in tax relief or whether additional benefits? 2356 1 That's the issue, but please don't becloud the 2 issue with sloganeering. This is not cheap 3 posturing. This is an issue that's supported by 4 this house, the Majority in this house. The 5 Governor has said he supports it. The 6 Comptroller has provided some form of 7 endorsement to this. 8 The only people holding out 9 basically the Assembly Majority, the Democrats 10 in the Assembly and this is a policy statement 11 that would be endorsed by the overwhelming 12 people, overwhelming number of people in this 13 state whether they are receiving assistance or 14 not. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: How do 16 you vote, Senator Saland? 17 SENATOR SALAND: I vote in the 18 affirmative. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Saland in the affirmative. 21 Continue the roll. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator 23 Santiago. 2357 1 SENATOR SANTIAGO: No. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears 3 voting in the affirmative earlier today. 4 Senator Seward. 5 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos 7 voting in the affirmative earlier today. 8 Senator Smith. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Smith to explain her vote. 11 SENATOR SMITH: At first blush I 12 was tempted to vote for this bill, but after 13 listening to all of my colleagues debate the 14 issue and after asking many questions, I don't 15 believe that the test that was taken in Onondaga 16 and Rockland County is a true representation of 17 the state of New York nor do I believe that 147 18 people represent an entire state. There is a 19 need for reform, and I believe that those of us 20 in the African-American community and in the 21 Puerto Rican and Latino communities believe that 22 stronger than anyone else and I'm tired of 23 hearing that it is our people that are the 2358 1 recipients of welfare because it is not. Look 2 at the statistics, and after carefully listening 3 to especially Senator Nozzolio talk about the 4 requirements for doctors and dentists to be 5 fingerprinted, those things are not happening in 6 our state and until we start to take -- to take 7 care of those issues of those who are really 8 ripping off the system, then I don't feel that 9 we should do it on the backs of the little guy 10 who can not help themselves. 11 Once again we're throwing out the 12 baby with the bath water. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Smith, how do you vote? 15 SENATOR SMITH: In the negative. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Smith in the negative. 18 Continue the roll. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Solomon. 20 (There was no response. ) 21 Senator Spano. 22 SENATOR SPANO: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2359 1 Stachowski. 2 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Yes. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford. 4 Senator Stafford. 5 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 Stavisky. 8 SENATOR STAVISKY: No. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo. 10 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully. 12 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, to 13 explain my vote. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Tully to explain his vote. 16 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you, Mr. 17 President. 18 As chairman of the Health 19 Committee and chairman of the Council on Health 20 Care Financing, I can tell my colleagues quite 21 candidly that there are many, many things that 22 are being requested of me and of you as members 23 in this state right now that would very much 2360 1 help those deserving poor and needy in our 2 state. 3 One thing I think of immediately 4 that comes to mind is the case mix cap that's 5 been imposed by the Department of Health on our 6 hospitals which will cost them somewhere in the 7 area of $250 million if it's allowed to stand. 8 And who will it hurt the most, Mr. President? It 9 will hurt the people in New York City the most 10 in the sense that the bulk of those people who 11 need it are in New York City. 12 It doesn't take a lot, Mr. 13 President, to resolve this problem. I'm told 14 that for something like $20 million with a lift 15 cap in the Senate and half in the Assembly, we 16 can solve that problem. Well, back in 1991 when 17 this legislation was proposed, I supported it 18 with Senator Holland, and I said it should be 19 statewide and, Mr. President, we weren't allowed 20 to have that statewide program developed. We 21 were forced to accept a demonstration project in 22 two counties, Onondaga and Rockland, and when 23 one of my colleagues earlier said Senator 2361 1 Dollinger -- he's not in the chamber now but he 2 did say that in some small way finger imaging 3 has led to a reduction in fraud. 4 Well, I don't know what he thinks 5 is small, but even in Long Island where I come 6 from, if one county can save one million 7 dollars, Mr. President, that's not small, that's 8 big, and we have 62 counties in this state and 9 yes, we did ask in 1991 to do this statewide 10 because we knew there was fraud, Mr. President, 11 and again, we weren't allowed to do it and we're 12 back today. It's not small. 13 The Commissioner of Social 14 Services of Onondaga County told my staff today 15 that it's one million dollars in that county 16 that has such a small amount of people on 17 welfare. 18 This bill is timely and it's not 19 partisan, cheaply partisan as Senator Gold said, 20 and I notice he's not in the chamber either, but 21 it is the right thing to do, Mr. President. 22 Statutory authority for these demonstrations 23 expired April 1st. That's one of the reasons 2362 1 for this bill, because this bill will correct 2 that, and we would have saved millions of 3 dollars, millions of dollars. We could have 4 solved that case mix cap problem without a doubt 5 if this bill -- this legislative proposal of 6 Senator Holland in 1991 was allowed. He cites 7 38 percent of the budget is now Medicaid and 8 welfare. 9 If it's allowed to continue, this 10 state will be bankrupt. This is a step in the 11 right direction. The people, 93 percent of the 12 people who have received this in those counties 13 said they had no problem with finger imaging. 14 This bill is timely, and it should be adopted 15 and I vote for it. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Tully in the affirmative. 18 Continue the roll. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella. 20 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker. 22 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon. 2363 1 (Negative indication.) 2 THE SECRETARY: No. 3 Senator Wright. 4 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6 Secretary will call the absentees. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno. 8 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada 10 excused. 11 Senator Galiber. 12 SENATOR GALIBER: Have my name 13 called very briefly. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Galiber to explain his vote. 16 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator Tully, 17 I recall that in 1991 also and what we were 18 saying then and apparently we have forgotten, 19 was that we were interested in the fraud aspect 20 of it. We're talking about 600-and-some-odd 21 thousand dollars in one particular area. 22 There's a recent, and some of us 23 said why don't we go after Medicaid fraud, where 2364 1 the big bucks are? And this is just a recent 2 case from the New York Law Journal in which 3 state is awarded a million regarding Medicaid 4 fraud plea. It was a plea bargain situation, 5 five hundred, half a million dollars there's a 6 plea bargain, and with triple damages it comes 7 up to a million-point-five. 8 And some of us said in 1991 this 9 is the direction we should be going in, not 10 after those persons who are the small fry and 11 those of us who suggest on this side of the 12 aisle that we should be doing a little bit more 13 such substantive matters, I recognize we went 14 through a charade the other night, and call it 15 what you want, descriptive adjectives, 16 ridiculous almost, $700 million in tax cuts, and 17 we're doing the same thing here tonight. We're 18 talking about people and a state of mind I 19 mentioned before. 20 Why don't we go after the major 21 frauds which is the fraud in Medicaid. Why 22 don't we go after that instead of suggesting 23 that there is fingerprinting or whatever the 2365 1 case may be? I would ask you to put it over for 2 a while and there shouldn't be any problem along 3 those lines. You're insistent on going 4 forward. You know it's a one-house bill. 5 You talk about wasting whether we 6 were extended a conference as far as our 7 conference is concerned, it works both ways, 8 reciprocity over the years. The fact of the 9 matter, you know, in your heart's heart it's a 10 one-house bill, and you're going after the wrong 11 person, very frankly. We should have spent our 12 time in 1991 going after the big guys. 13 No, I'm making a statement that 14 we should have been going after those big guys 15 from the very beginning in 1991 and we wouldn't 16 be wasting our time. That's what we're doing 17 here and you're putting some good people in some 18 awkward positions. That's the design. That's 19 what the design is, Senator. 20 You don't know the complete 21 story, but that's the political design to put 22 people in a position where you say, are you 23 opposed to finding the cheats in our system and 2366 1 the answer certainly we want to find out but 2 this is not welfare reform. That's what we 3 need. We should be going after the big guys, 4 not chipping away in this fashion. 5 I vote no. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Galiber in the negative. Continue the roll. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nolan. 9 (There was no response. ) 10 Senator Solomon. 11 (There was no response. ) 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 13 the results. 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43, nays 15 15. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 The clerk will continue the non 19 -- or the controversial calendar. Senator 20 Present, we have a couple motions. Do you mind 21 if we return to motion and resolutions? 22 SENATOR PRESENT: Let's get them 23 out of the way. 2367 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All 2 right. Senator Libous. 3 SENATOR LIBOUS: All right, Mr. 4 President. First I'd like to star my bill 5 Calendar Number 489, please. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sponsor's 7 star on Calendar 489. 8 SENATOR LIBOUS: And also, Mr. 9 President, I move that the following bill be 10 discharged from its respective committee and be 11 recommitted with instructions to strike the 12 enacting clause: Senate Bill 439. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: O.K., 14 Senator Present, that takes care of motions and 15 resolutions. Can we return to standing 16 committees for a report? Clerk will read. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook, 18 from the Committee on Education, reports the 19 following bill directly for third reading: 20 Senate Bill Number 7293, by Senator Padavan and 21 others, Education Law, in relation to the number 22 of community school districts. 23 Also Senator Skelos, from the 2368 1 Committee on Aging reports the following bill 2 directly for third reading: Senate Bill Number 3 7238-A, by Senator Skelos and others, Executive 4 Law, in relation to the elderly pharmaceutical 5 insurance coverage programs. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 7 objection, so ordered. 8 Senator Santiago, Santiago, 9 excuse me. 10 SENATOR SANTIAGO: I would 11 request if the record indicated I would have 12 voted in the negative on Calendar 405 had I been 13 in the chamber yesterday. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All 15 right. The record will so indicate. 16 Regular order, clerk will read. 17 THE SECRETARY: On page 11, 18 Calendar Number 482, by Senator Cook, Senate 19 bill Number 2836, General Municipal Law. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation? 21 SENATOR GOLD: Last section. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 23 section. 2369 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 8 is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 484, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 81-A, 11 in relation to requiring the Commissioners of 12 Motor Vehicles, Transportation and Education to 13 develop a uniform definition. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Last section. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 16 section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 2370 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 506, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 4417, 4 Criminal Procedure Law and the Family Court 5 Act. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 7 section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59, nays 14 one, Senator Galiber recorded in the negative. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 510, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number 19 6845, amends Chapter 266 of the Laws of 1981 20 amending the Civil Practice Law and Rules. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Excuse me. 22 Tomorrow, please. 23 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside. 2371 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 2 bill aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 513, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number 5 128-A, an act to amend the Executive Law. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Could we - 7 Senator Padavan wanted this starred? 8 SENATOR PRESENT: No. 9 SENATOR GOLD: All right, 10 tomorrow. 11 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside, 12 please. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 14 bill aside. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 518, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2632 17 A, Environmental Conservation Law. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, 19 please. (Pause) Were you prepared for it 20 today? 21 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Last section. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The clerk 2372 1 will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Excuse me. Ayes 11 59, nays one -- ayes 60. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 523, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 1003-A, 16 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 18 section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2373 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 526, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 7239, 6 an act to amend the General Municipal Law. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 8 section. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 Senator Present. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Clear? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Present. 22 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 23 for the benefit of the members, there will be a 2374 1 session tomorrow at the usual time, a session on 2 Friday at the regular time and Senator Marino 3 would like the members to know that the Senate 4 will continue to work until we have a budget in 5 place. 6 SENATOR GOLD: You mean work day 7 by day, you don't mean - 8 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 9 there being no further business, I move that - 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Present, I'm being asked to recognize Senator 12 Hoffmann. Senator Hoffmann. 13 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr. 14 President. I'd like to be recorded in the 15 negative on Calendar Number 523. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 17 objection, so ordered. 18 Senator Present. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Now, Mr. 20 President, there being no further business, I 21 move that we adjourn until tomorrow at 11:00 22 a.m. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 2375 1 stands adjourned until tomorrow at 11 a.m. 2 (Whereupon at 6:14 p.m., the 3 Senate adjourned.) 4 5 6 7