Monday, June 13, 1994

4793 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 June 13, 1994 10 3:55 p.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 SENATOR HUGH T. FARLEY, Acting President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 4794 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 3 Senate will come to order. Senators will please 4 find their places. Please rise with me for the 5 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. 6 (The assemblage repeated the 7 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 8 Today we're pleased to have with 9 us Rabbi M. Mitchell Serels of Magen David 10 Sephardic Congregation of Scarsdale, New 11 Rochelle, New York. 12 Rabbi Serels. 13 RABBI M. MITCHELL SERELS: 14 Elohaynu zerin elohaynu: Our Lord God, our 15 redeemer and refuge, bless these noble 16 legislators. Crown their efforts with success. 17 May the deed of their hands and the thoughts of 18 their minds be of benefit to all. As we, the 19 Sephardim, know out of tolerance and mutual 20 respect great works can flower, but out of 21 intolerance only disaster can result. Let each 22 one, therefore, take pride in their 23 accomplishment. As You, Almighty, have promised 4795 1 reward, and bless them for performing justice, 2 and so shall these Senators be blessed. As the 3 efforts of each does indeed affect each and 4 every one of us, grant them continued wise 5 counsel, the knowledge of where we have come 6 from and to where we must ultimately go and what 7 we must leave behind. Para la paz y la salud de 8 todos. And let us say amen. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 10 Secretary will begin by reading the Journal. 11 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 12 Friday, June 10th. The Senate met pursuant to 13 adjournment, Senator Bruno in the Chair upon 14 designation of the Temporary President. The 15 Journal of Thursday, June 9th, was read and ap 16 proved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hearing 18 no objection, the Journal will stand approved as 19 read. 20 The order of business: 21 Presentation of petitions. 22 Messages from the Assembly. 23 Messages from the Governor. 4796 1 Reports of standing committees. 2 Reports of select committees. 3 Communications and reports from 4 state officers. 5 Motions and resolutions. 6 Senator DiCarlo, with a motion. 7 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 8 on page 37, I offer the following amendments to 9 Calendar 615, Senate Print Number 7215, and ask 10 that said bill retain its place on the Third 11 Reading Calendar on behalf of Senator Cook. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 13 objection. 14 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 15 on page 37, I offer the following amendments to 16 Calendar 613, Senate Print Number 3202-A, and 17 ask that said bill retain its place on the Third 18 Reading Calendar, for Senator Cook. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: So 20 ordered, without objection. 21 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 22 I wish to call up bill, Print Number 6300-B 23 recalled from the Assembly which is now at the 4797 1 desk. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 3 Secretary will read the bill. 4 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Bruno, 5 Senate Bill Number 6300-B, an act to amend the 6 Highway Law, in relation to designating a 7 portion of state highway system as the C. V. 8 Whitney Memorial Highway. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 10 DiCarlo. 11 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 12 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 13 bill was passed. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 15 the roll on reconsideration. 16 (The Secretary called the roll on 17 reconsideration. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 20 bill is before the house. 21 Senator DiCarlo. 22 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 23 I now offer the following amendments on behalf 4798 1 of Senator Bruno. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 3 Amendments are received; bill will retain its 4 place. 5 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 6 I wish to call up bill, Print Number 6805 7 recalled from the Assembly which is now at the 8 desk. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 10 Secretary will read it. 11 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Sears, 12 Senate Bill Number 6805, an act to amend the 13 Highway Law, in relation to designating a 14 portion of the state highway system as the 15 Aluminum Workers Memorial Highway. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 17 DiCarlo. 18 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 19 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 20 bill was passed. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 22 the roll on reconsideration. 23 (The Secretary called the roll on 4799 1 reconsideration. ) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 4 DiCarlo. 5 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 6 I now offer the following amendments for Senator 7 Sears. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 9 Amendments are received. 10 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 11 I wish to call up my bill, Print Number 6379 12 recalled from the Assembly which is now at the 13 desk. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 15 Secretary will read Senator DiCarlo's bill. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senate Bill 17 Number 6379, by Senator DiCarlo, an act to amend 18 the Penal Law, in relation to the sale of 19 controlled substances on school grounds. 20 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 21 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 22 bill was passed. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 4800 1 the roll on reconsideration. 2 (The Secretary called the roll on 3 reconsideration. ) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38. 5 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 6 I now offer the following amendments. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 8 Amendments are received. 9 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 10 on behalf of Senator Skelos, please remove 11 sponsor's star on Calendar Number 199. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Star is 13 removed on 199. 14 SENATOR DiCARLO: On behalf of 15 Senator Daly, please remove the sponsor's star 16 on Calendar Numbers 400 and 945. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 18 stars are removed. 19 SENATOR DiCARLO: On behalf of 20 Senator Wright, please place a sponsor's star on 21 Calendars Number 402, 403 and 404. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 23 bills are starred. 4801 1 Senator Cook. 2 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, I'd 3 like to remove stars on Calendars 613, 615 and 4 922. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 6 stars are removed at the request of the 7 sponsor. 8 Senator Goodman. 9 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President, 10 may I place a sponsor's star on Calendar 780, 11 Senate Bill 7902. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 780 is 13 starred at the request of the sponsor. 14 SENATOR VELELLA: Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 16 Velella. 17 SENATOR VELELLA: Mr. President, 18 I'd like to -- Senate Bill 872, Senate Bill 19 7198-A, would you remove the sponsor's star. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Star is 21 removed. 22 Any other motions on the floor? 23 We have some substitutions, Senator Padavan. 4802 1 May we read them? Secretary will read. 2 THE SECRETARY: On page 20 of 3 today's calendar, Senator Skelos moves to 4 discharge the Committee on Rules from Assembly 5 Bill Number 8460-B and substitute it for the 6 identical Third Reading 817. 7 On page 31, Senator LaValle moves 8 to discharge the Committee on Education from 9 Assembly Bill Number 8734-A and substitute it 10 for the identical Third Reading 1065. 11 On page 39, Senator Cook moves to 12 discharge the Committee on Rules from Assembly 13 Bill Number 5058-B and substitute it for the 14 identical Calendar Number 922. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 16 Substitutions are ordered. 17 Senator Padavan. 18 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President, 19 will you acknowledge Senator Stafford who has a 20 privileged resolution. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 22 Secretary will read Senator Stafford's privi 23 leged resolution. 4803 1 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 2 Resolution, by Senator Stafford, honoring Dr. H. 3 David Chamberlain for his distinguished service 4 on behalf of Paul Smiths College of Arts and 5 Sciences on June 17, 1994. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 7 resolution, all in favor say aye. 8 (Response of "Aye.") 9 Those opposed nay. 10 (There was no response. ) 11 The resolution is adopted. 12 Are there any other motions, any 13 other business on the floor? 14 Senator Padavan, what's your 15 pleasure? 16 SENATOR PADAVAN: Non-controvers 17 ial. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 19 Secretary will read non-controversial. 20 THE SECRETARY: On page 4, 21 Calendar Number 126, by Senator Hannon, Senate 22 Bill Number 281-B, authorizing the county of 23 Nassau to accept an application for real 4804 1 property tax exemption. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 3 the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 7 the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 11 bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 242, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 6390 14 A, an act to amend the Public Officers Law and 15 the Village Law. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 17 the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 21 the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 4805 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 2 bill is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 291, by Senator Skelos. 5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Lay it aside 6 for the day, please. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 8 aside for the day, did you say? 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: For the day. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: For the 11 day. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 478, by Senator Saland. 14 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Lay it 15 aside. 16 SENATOR PADAVAN: Lay it aside. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay 18 that bill aside. 19 SENATOR PADAVAN: For the day. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: For the 21 day. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 734, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 5622-D, an 4806 1 act to amend the Civil Service Law. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 3 the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 7 the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That 11 bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 812, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 14 3144-C, Real Property Tax Law and the Education 15 Law. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 18 aside. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 815, by Senator Farley, Senate Bill Number 21 5038-A, an act to amend the Real Property Tax 22 Law and the Social Services Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 4807 1 the last section. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid 4 aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 817, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly 7 Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 8460-B, 8 an act to amend the Public Health Law, requiring 9 the presence of certified lifeguards on ocean 10 beaches. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 12 the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 16 the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44, nays 19 one, Senator Cook recorded in the negative. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That 21 bill is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 929, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 6672 4808 1 A, an act to amend the Executive Law. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 3 the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 7 the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 11 bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 941, by Senator Johnson. 14 SENATOR JOHNSON: Lay aside for 15 the day, please. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid 17 aside for the day. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1098, by Senator Bruno, Senate Bill Number 7133 20 A, an act to amend the Executive Law. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 4809 1 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 3 Withdraw the roll call, lay it aside. 4 That's the first time through, 5 Senator Padavan. 6 SENATOR PADAVAN: Controversial, 7 please. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 9 Controversial. 10 THE SECRETARY: On page 20, 11 Calendar Number 812, by Senator Larkin, Senate 12 Bill Number 3144-C, an act to amend the Real 13 Property Tax Law and the Public Service Law. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 16 Explanation has been asked for. 17 Senator Larkin. 18 SENATOR LARKIN: This really is a 19 -- Mr. President, this is really a continuation 20 of a bill that we did in 1987, and the main 21 thrust of this bill today is that -- from the 22 1987 is that the central office equipment in 23 those days was all out in the field. Now, you 4810 1 can move it to the field or inside. 2 And those that had the objection 3 was the Association of Counties and the towns. 4 Now, all they have to do is move this equipment 5 out on a pole and they get the exemption. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 7 yield to a question? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 9 Larkin? 10 SENATOR GOLD: Is this the same 11 bill that we had last year? 12 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, sir, and we 13 made those changes that the telecommunications 14 people that the Governor had in "B", and asked 15 us to hold off, and we made those changes. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Then it's not the 17 same bill. 18 SENATOR GALIBER: An improved 19 bill. 20 SENATOR GOLD: An improved bill. 21 SENATOR LARKIN: It's an improved 22 bill, yes, sir. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 4811 1 yield to a question? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 3 Larkin, will you yield? 4 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Larkin, 5 you may remember that this bill won the award 6 last year for the bill that had the most 7 bipartisan opposition, but I'm just curious: 8 Can you just explain what the amendment does so 9 that people who voted against it last year can 10 at least understand the changes. 11 SENATOR LARKIN: Well, it says 12 that the central office equipment located 13 anywhere except in a special franchise is exempt 14 from the real property tax. 15 SENATOR GOLD: All right, Mr. 16 President. On the bill. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 18 bill. 19 SENATOR GOLD: There were just a 20 few -- last year Senators Jones and Markowitz, 21 Oppenheimer, Stachowski, Cook, Farley, Johnson, 22 Pataki and Seward voted against that print. 23 You've heard my distinguished colleague explain 4812 1 the difference. Your dice. 2 SENATOR LARKIN: Last section. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 4 the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: SECTION - 6 Senator Jones. I'm sorry. 7 SENATOR JONES: Yes. Would the 8 sponsor just yield to a question, please? 9 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes. 10 SENATOR JONES: Does that mean, 11 then, that NYCOM and the Association of Counties 12 has withdrawn their opposition to this new 13 print? 14 SENATOR LARKIN: I just said the 15 Association of Counties and Towns are still 16 objecting. 17 SENATOR JONES: Oh, they do 18 object. I didn't hear you, Senator. Thank 19 you. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Last section. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 4813 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 3 the roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 5 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded 6 in the negative on Calendar Number 812 are 7 Senators Cook, Dollinger, Farley, Johnson, 8 Jones, Kruger, Oppenheimer and Stachowski. Ayes 9 37, nays 8. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 11 bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: On page 20, 13 Calendar Number 815, by Senator Farley, Senate 14 Bill Number 5038-A, an act to amend the Real 15 Property Tax Law and the Social Services Law. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Just a 18 moment. 19 SENATOR FARLEY: This particular 20 legislation has been introduced at the request 21 of Montgomery County. It would permit counties 22 the option of withholding Social Services rent 23 payments to landlords who are delinquent in the 4814 1 payment of their property taxes. 2 It was amended -- the bill was 3 amended to exclude New York City and to also 4 make it optional. Is that it? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 6 Galiber. 7 SENATOR GALIBER: Just one 8 question, whose option? 9 SENATOR FARLEY: I beg your 10 pardon? 11 SENATOR GALIBER: You say it's 12 optional. 13 SENATOR FARLEY: It's optional on 14 the part of the counties whether they want to be 15 able to exercise the options in this bill to 16 withhold rent payments to landlords who receive 17 their rent directly for welfare payments - 18 welfare clients that live in their residences. 19 SENATOR GALIBER: In other words, 20 they would receive -- the landlord would receive 21 a check directly? 22 SENATOR FARLEY: The landlords 23 receive -- they already have that option to 4815 1 receive the payments directly. If the landlord 2 is delinquent in his property taxes, Social 3 Services can, under this, if the county wishes 4 to opt into this program, withhold the rent 5 payments to the landlord until the property 6 taxes are paid. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 9 Gold. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, I just 11 wanted to point out that there -- the Greater 12 Upstate Law Project is opposed to this and they 13 basically take the position that -- I'll read 14 just a sentence or two: Although this idea has 15 superficial appeal, after all why should the 16 county pay funds over to a landlord who owes the 17 county money, the impact on recipients of public 18 assistance could well be devastating. 19 Another comment: A law which 20 would essentially utilize welfare families as 21 captive tax collectors is unlikely to enhance 22 the housing opportunities for these families. 23 SENATOR FARLEY: I don't know why 4816 1 they would be devastated. The law already says 2 that if a piece of property is not up to build 3 ing codes, that they can withhold the rent 4 payments to the landlord, and that has not been 5 devastating. This is just to have an 6 encouragement to have the landlords pay their 7 taxes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 9 Dollinger. 10 SENATOR ONORATO: Senator Farley, 11 will you yield to a question, please? 12 SENATOR FARLEY: Certainly, 13 Senator Onorato. 14 SENATOR ONORATO: If the Social 15 Services is able to withhold the amount that 16 they were paying towards the welfare client's 17 rent, can they pay -- can they still withhold it 18 and apply it to whatever taxes are due on the 19 property and consider the rent paid to the 20 landlord, or is it simply withholding it and 21 then subjecting the tenant to an eviction 22 notice? 23 SENATOR FARLEY: No, I don't 4817 1 think that the tenant is affected by any 2 eviction notice. They're precluded from doing 3 just exactly what you're talking about in this 4 legislation. 5 SENATOR ONORATO: O.K. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 7 Dollinger. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 9 President, will the sponsor yield to a 10 question? 11 SENATOR FARLEY: Certainly. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 13 Farley yields. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, did 15 I hear you mention that the bill was optional 16 for the counties to participate? 17 SENATOR FARLEY: That is 18 correct. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Where is that 20 language contained in the bill just so - 21 SENATOR FARLEY: The county 22 legislative body may elect by resolution, in the 23 first line of the bill, line 4, it's the very 4818 1 first line. Do you have the "A" print? 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I may not. 3 Senator, I apologize. 4 SENATOR FARLEY: I'll send a copy 5 over to you right away. That was part of the - 6 in the "A" print, they made it optional and they 7 also excluded the city of New York. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Just one 9 other question then, Mr. President, and I 10 apologize for not having the updated version of 11 it. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 13 Dollinger. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That answers 15 the question. When would the -- when would the 16 obligation to report the non-payment of taxes 17 occur? Does it occur immediately upon the taxes 18 being declared delinquent, or does it occur upon 19 the time that the taxes are actually published 20 that they're in delinquency, default, and that 21 the county will assess -- trying to remember my 22 law here -- that the county will actually 23 complete the collection process? 4819 1 SENATOR FARLEY: Well, as far as 2 the time, I guess it's when they are delinquent. 3 I think you are not delinquent until the third 4 -- when the local warrant to collect the taxes 5 expires, then they become delinquent and they 6 have -- they have to notify Social Services, the 7 Tax Department would notify Social Services and 8 they would withhold the rent and notify the 9 landlord, pay your taxes. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K., But 11 that, again through you, Mr. President if the 12 sponsor would just continue to yield: Would 13 that be before or after the usual publication 14 date for the non-payment of taxes? My 15 understanding is that the counties undertake the 16 responsibility to collect the delinquent school 17 and municipal taxes after the expiration of the 18 warrant and then they subsequently publish a 19 notice that the taxes are in default and that 20 they're subject to - 21 SENATOR FARLEY: When it goes to 22 the county. You see, the county has to pay 23 those taxes, in essence, and when it goes to the 4820 1 county, and that warrant has expired they would 2 notify the Social Services to withhold rent. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. So it's 4 after the counties have already paid the 5 municipalities and the school districts. 6 SENATOR FARLEY: That's correct. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just a final 8 question again through you, Mr. President, if 9 the sponsor will continue to yield. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 11 Farley continues to yield. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Are you 13 satisfied that this meets the constitutional 14 tests for the collection of these kinds of 15 debts? I know there's been a lot of litigation 16 involving government's ability to intercept 17 proceeds without a hearing. 18 SENATOR FARLEY: Well, I don't 19 know that they're intercepting these proceeds. 20 I don't think that these proceeds necessarily go 21 to the payment of the taxes. They don't. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But this is 23 actually -- this is a payment being made to the 4821 1 landlord. 2 SENATOR FARLEY: That will be 3 held in escrow, and I presume as soon as the 4 landlord pays his taxes he will get the rent 5 payments. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 7 Mr. President. 8 SENATOR RATH: I have a 9 question. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 11 last section. 12 SENATOR RATH: Senator yield to a 13 question? 14 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes, I will. 15 SENATOR RATH: Senator, is there 16 any law that has been passed that would allow a 17 city -- I know you said there that New York City 18 is exempted in this particular piece of 19 legislation. Was there anything earlier that 20 would allow, that a city like, for example, 21 Buffalo could come back at those delinquent 22 taxpayers? No? That would have to be a future 23 consideration? 4822 1 SENATOR FARLEY: I don't quite 2 understand. 3 SENATOR RATH: These are county 4 taxes we're talking about now. 5 SENATOR FARLEY: These are taxes, 6 period. 7 SENATOR RATH: All taxes. 8 SENATOR FARLEY: All taxes. 9 SENATOR RATH: And so the city 10 portion - 11 SENATOR FARLEY: All property 12 taxes. 13 SENATOR RATH: -- would go back to 14 the city. 15 SENATOR FARLEY: The county would 16 pay the city, as I understand. 17 SENATOR RATH: So it would go 18 back to any of the jurisdictions that had any 19 responsibility or any lien against that property 20 by way of not having those taxes paid? 21 SENATOR FARLEY: All right. If I 22 understand the process, the city is collecting 23 taxes or purportedly collecting taxes. They're 4823 1 not paid, and the county actually pays the 2 city. 3 SENATOR RATH: And the county 4 gets the money back. 5 SENATOR FARLEY: And the county 6 becomes -- and at that point they would come in 7 and, say -- notify Social Services and say, 8 Withhold the rent, the taxes are not paid, and 9 Social Services would. I would presume that 10 would get the taxes paid. That's the purpose of 11 it. 12 SENATOR RATH: So that would come 13 back then to the county coffers, is what you're 14 saying. 15 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes, back to the 16 county coffers. 17 SENATOR RATH: Yeah, and any 18 other kind of outstanding claim that a city 19 would have outside of a particular tax that you 20 have noted here would not be falling in 21 obviously under this legislation, but I was 22 asking if there were other -- other pieces of 23 legislation that addressed this same claim on 4824 1 those monies, so that Social Services would 2 intercept -- so that the Sheriff's Department 3 would intercept the money before it would go 4 into the hands of the landlord. 5 SENATOR FARLEY: I don't think 6 so. 7 SENATOR RATH: No. 8 SENATOR FARLEY: I don't think 9 so, no. 10 SENATOR RATH: O.K. Thank you. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 13 Gold. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, I -- I don't 15 think I was fair to this memo in explaining it, 16 and I want to try one more time not to advocate 17 the position or not, but just to make it clear. 18 If a landlord has a building and 19 he's got a problem, it's usually a cash flow 20 problem or related thereto and it may very well 21 be that part of the problem is delinquency in 22 taxes. It may be a delinquency in mortgage. It 23 may be a situation where he's got to refinance, 4825 1 could be a lot of things. If these tenants are 2 paying him the money, the landlord may be able 3 to juggle that building for a period of time and 4 then wind up paying the taxes before he loses it 5 in rem, or do some other things. 6 What their -- this bill -- what 7 this memo is saying is they're worried about 8 from the welfare tenant's point of view. What 9 they're saying that if there is a particular 10 tenant whose money is easily accessible to the 11 municipality for the taxes directly, that might 12 be less attractive to a landlord than someone 13 who had a legal obligation to pay the landlord 14 the money, and then the landlord would have the 15 juggling, so that's their objection. 16 Their objection here is, as they 17 phrased it, and I think I've at least explained 18 it better now, is that they're concerned that 19 there will be a prejudice to welfare clients 20 where a landlord figures that their money could 21 be grabbed and he won't have the cash flow as 22 opposed to somebody else. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read - 4826 1 SENATOR FARLEY: Let me add - 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 3 Farley, go ahead. 4 SENATOR FARLEY: I was going to 5 try to answer Senator Gold's concern. 6 We contacted the New York State 7 Department of Social Services, actually Kathy 8 Napoli, in the Shelter Division, as to the 9 effect of this legislation and the Department of 10 Social Services indicated to us that this 11 legislation would have little or no effect on 12 the ability -- the ability of the recipients to 13 obtain housing. She indicated that most 14 landlords who do not wish to rent to welfare 15 clients have already made this decision, and 16 this decision would not affect their decision. I 17 mean that's what Social Services thinks of 18 this. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 20 Rath. 21 SENATOR RATH: Senator Farley, 22 will you yield to a question? 23 The question is, in your second 4827 1 section of the summary looks to me like it would 2 only -- it would only deal with clients who are 3 on the voucher system, is that correct, only 4 Social Services clients who are receiving their 5 rent paid by voucher? 6 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes. 7 SENATOR RATH: Those are the only 8 ones that we would have any way of intercepting? 9 SENATOR FARLEY: That's correct. 10 That's correct. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 12 Leichter. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, if 14 Senator Farley would yield, please. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 16 Farley yields. 17 SENATOR FARLEY: My pleasure. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: I appreciate 19 my good friend helping to explain his bill. 20 SENATOR FARLEY: Here comes the 21 tough question. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah, but, 23 Senator, I -- I see obviously some merit in your 4828 1 bill, but I see a problem which I think Senator 2 Gold has explained based on the memorandum in 3 opposition. 4 Senator, why wouldn't it be 5 possible to frame a bill that where a landlord 6 was -- property owner was delinquent in taxes, 7 that the county collector would have the right 8 to go and collect not only from social -- from 9 people who are receiving their rent payment from 10 the Department of Social Services but serving a 11 notice on all the tenants saying, Well, you go 12 into court and you get an order, and it -- if 13 you've established in court that the property 14 owner is delinquent in taxes, it's in the nature 15 of a garnishment. You get a judgment or I guess 16 you would have to get a judgment. I don't know, 17 maybe you wouldn't. Maybe you could even get - 18 have some of the money put in escrow before you 19 get a judgment, require all tenants to pay their 20 rent to the county collector. 21 Why -- why couldn't you do that? 22 SENATOR FARLEY: That's another 23 bill. If you are interested in that, you can 4829 1 introduce it. This was at the request of the 2 counties. Incidentally, let me just say this in 3 regard to any hardship. I don't think it's a 4 hardship on the -- on the tenants because you 5 know, the city code, if there is a city, the 6 city could foreclose on that property and 7 actually the tenants would lose their place of 8 residence, so actually, all this is, is an 9 incentive to have these landlords pay their 10 taxes. 11 I think that a landlord that is 12 receiving direct voucher payments of rent should 13 -- from Social Services, should be paying his 14 taxes. Many times they just use that and they 15 have a terrible problem in these cities with 16 delinquency of taxes and they just refuse to pay 17 them until -- until foreclosure starts. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if 19 you would be so kind to continue to yield. You 20 know, Senator, we understand the reason for the 21 bill. I'm actually trying to make the bill both 22 more effective or come up with a more effective 23 approach. 4830 1 SENATOR FARLEY: I understand. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Or all 3 encompassing approach that would help the 4 localities and secondly, to avoid there being 5 any disincentive for landlord renting to people 6 who are on welfare, and I don't know whether 7 it's an answer to say, well, that's another 8 bill. 9 Yeah, it would be a little 10 different bill, but you know, Senator, even - 11 even your excellent legislation sometimes could 12 be improved. Rarely, that is. 13 SENATOR FARLEY: That's 14 possible. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Rarely would 16 we find that possible, Senator, but maybe this 17 is one of those cases. 18 Wouldn't we help the locality 19 which you're trying to do -- that's certainly a 20 worthwhile effort -- by saying that what you 21 really want to do is to have an expedited way to 22 have a judgment and garnish, and that's 23 essentially what we're doing; in those instances 4831 1 maybe give the county the right to go in to, in 2 effect, it would be like a lien. I don't do 3 this sort of work, so I'm not using all of the 4 right terminology, but I think there's a -- I 5 could easily see a very expedited way by having 6 the county giving, of course, notice to the 7 property owner, put a lien on it and then serve 8 a notice on all the tenants. 9 Now, if there were then some 10 tenants who received their pay from Social 11 Services, they would be in the same category as 12 all of the tenants and the cities and the 13 counties would be helped because we've given 14 them an easier way to try to collect the money. 15 Now, if that's another bill, 16 Senator, maybe it's a better bill than the one 17 we have before us and, of course, it will pass 18 as a Senator Farley bill. 19 SENATOR FARLEY: Your point might 20 be well taken. Of course, this is what the 21 counties asked for. They might consider this the 22 lawyers' full employment clause that you're 23 asking for because we're going to have to go to 4832 1 court and get liens and judgments, and so 2 forth. I think this is a little cleaner and a 3 little more simple way to try to get -- to 4 encourage the taxes to be paid. That's just my 5 opinion. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 7 Rath. 8 SENATOR RATH: When Senator 9 Farley said the counties were asking and this is 10 on the bill -- were asking for this, I think it 11 was maybe me about nine years ago. We started 12 something in Erie County called Project Inter 13 cept in order to bring dollars into the county 14 coffers, the desperately needed dollars, and we 15 found that we could only make that happen and 16 very much the way this bill is asking we could 17 only make that happen for a very short period of 18 time because of state law. There was only a 19 small window of opportunity for us to bring 20 those dollars back, and through the Social 21 Services system which, by the way, does mandate, 22 I believe, that the sheriff's department 23 actually does pick those monies up and carries 4833 1 them over to the county Tax Department. 2 When I tell you that in a period 3 of about a month and a half we picked up about 4 150-, $200,000 in delinquent taxes from people 5 whom you would not believe in Erie County who 6 have delinquent taxes and have voucher system 7 social service dollars coming in. It was shock 8 ing. I can't tell you the number of personal 9 phone calls being told to please stop, please do 10 not put anything in the newspaper. It is out 11 there, that money, just waiting to be collected, 12 and the counties will be very, very grateful for 13 this legislation. 14 SENATOR FARLEY: I'd be happy to 15 have you have as a sponsor of this. We've 16 already got 12 people on it. Anybody else would 17 like to get on, feel free to jump in. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 19 DeFrancisco. 20 SENATOR FARLEY: He's a sponsor. 21 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I'd just 22 like to speak on behalf of the bill. I think it 23 makes little sense to have landlords in cities 4834 1 and counties that are grossly delinquent in 2 taxes and not be able to take these sums of 3 money that the same jurisdictions are paying 4 back to those landlords by way of whatever 5 purpose, whether it's Social Services or 6 anything else, and it's interesting that these 7 are the same landlords that don't take care of 8 their properties and make them delinquent and 9 milk them for years and years and years. 10 Here is a wake-up call, I believe 11 to the landlord, that you're not going to be 12 able to do this. It's a quick simple way to get 13 back those tax revenues and it also is a way to 14 make sure that the landlord is not going to be 15 doing this for years and years before a 16 foreclosure action can be taken. 17 It's a good bill, and I am 18 pleased to support it today. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 20 last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 22 act shall take effect on the 90th day after it 23 shall have become a law. 4835 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 2 roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 4 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 5 the negative on Calendar Number 815 are Senators 6 Connor, Galiber, Gold, Leichter, Markowitz and 7 Ohrenstein. Ayes 42, nays 6. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: On page 31, 11 Calendar Number 1098, by Senator Bruno, Senate 12 Bill Number 7133-A, an act to amend the 13 Executive Law, in relation to the establishment 14 of strategic planning. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 16 SENATOR BRUNO: Explanation 17 requested, Mr. President? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Yes, 19 there has, Senator Bruno. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation 21 requested. 22 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator, thank 23 you. 4836 1 This bill, as you review it, I 2 think we all recognize that it's critical and 3 essential so that the people of this state, we 4 and the people of this state know that they are 5 getting from government what they pay for. 6 This bill pretty much -- and I 7 think, Senator Gold, your colleagues, that it's 8 important to recognize that we took this bill 9 almost as a duplicate from the federal 10 government in the Clinton administration and 11 some of the good work that they're doing there 12 in making federal agencies more accountable and 13 responsive to the people. 14 This duplicates almost that 15 federal program. Comptroller McCall has a 16 proposal in a bill that resembles this one. We 17 had ours in first, so that's the one that's 18 before the house. 19 What it says very basically is 20 that government ought to do what business does. 21 You set up a strategic plan and in this instance 22 that's by April -- January 1st, '95, each state 23 agency will set up a strategic plan. Then, by 4837 1 April 1st, '96 each state agency will set up a 2 performance plan intended to implement the 3 strategic plan, and then January 1st, '97, 4 report to the Governor and the Legislature how 5 they made out: How does the result compare to 6 the strategic plan and the performance plan? 7 They give a performance report. 8 Now, businesses do this. The 9 state is business. We think that this would add 10 a lot of credibility to government agencies. 11 It's no secret, the public out there feels 12 they've been short-changed by government. They 13 don't get their money's worth. Well, how do 14 they know; how do we know? How do we 15 commissioners, how does the Governor know 16 whether or not we're getting what we should in 17 terms of results from state agencies? 18 You will know by looking at their 19 strategic plan, look at their performance plan, 20 and then looking at their report on their 21 results. If they have not met their own plans 22 they talk about why not and what they're going 23 to do about it in the future to fix it. Very 4838 1 basic, very simple, not complicated at all, and 2 again in the federal government, they have 3 called it the Government Performance End Result 4 Act enacted by the Congress in 1993, and they're 5 starting to get some positive results. 6 So we are just taking a page from 7 President Clinton, his administration, and 8 laying it before you for your review and study 9 and hopefully approval, Senators. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 12 Gold. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, 14 there is a memo in opposition from CSEA on 15 behalf of its 265,000 active and retired public 16 employees. 17 Firstly, Senator Bruno, the 18 budget process at the federal level is different 19 than the federal process at the state level. At 20 the federal level the agencies deal with the 21 Legislature, and that's one thing. In our 22 process, as you know, the agencies have to 23 submit their budgets through to the Governor. 4839 1 They submit it to the Director of Budget and 2 then the Governor may or may not like their plan 3 or their budget, and then the Governor submits 4 what his plan is for the way the state will 5 operate. 6 After that, we hold hearings and 7 the same people who submitted their budget 8 request through the Governor's office and may 9 have had them completely changed, now come 10 before the Legislature and have to defend that 11 budget or answer questions. 12 Now, if you say to me, Senator 13 Bruno, that people don't think they're getting 14 the bang for the buck or they're getting short 15 changed, I tell you that this is an insult to 16 the 35 Republicans here who apparently are not 17 doing their oversight work; and that's what 18 you're supposed to be doing. That's what we're 19 all supposed to be doing. It's called 20 legislative oversight, and when we have our 21 budget hearings -- and I'm on the Finance 22 Committee; I go to those hearings sometimes, and 23 you -- the agency comes there and you can say to 4840 1 them, Well, what happened? Last year you were 2 in front of us and last year you said that we 3 were going to do this and we were going to do 4 that, and you needed money for this and that, 5 and where is that? You seem to have changed 6 that; or where is that; how did it work out? And 7 the agency is right there in front of Senators 8 and Assemblymen, and they have to answer those 9 questions very directly. 10 Now, that's an open process. I 11 have not yet experienced, Senator Bruno, one 12 Republican Senator who, when faced with a situa 13 tion he or she believed was governmental waste 14 or governmental ineffectiveness on the part of 15 the Democratic administration, was so shy that 16 he or she didn't put out a press release about 17 it, and I don't blame you. I think that's 18 fair. I think that's fair. 19 But it's certainly different than 20 putting in this bill which the CSEA points out 21 is, quotes, in their words "another unnecessary 22 level of paperwork and bureaucracy in state 23 government." 4841 1 I mean I think, Senator Bruno, 2 that philosophically, you and I might very well 3 agree that anyone who works for government is 4 accountable to the people who put up the bucks 5 and we in the Legislature should be making sure 6 that that works, but that's different than bills 7 such as we get all the time from members on your 8 side that require that the agencies put out this 9 study and they study this and they study that 10 and now they're going to put out a book of plans 11 and we're going to see what the plan is. 12 Senator, we have that capacity. 13 We have that capability. I've said so many 14 times. We even have an Administrative Review 15 Commission, and I think that that has never 16 really functioned as much as it can and should 17 be working at a greater level. 18 But the bottom line is that you, 19 Senator Bruno and others, have always been 20 concerned about paperwork and dealing with 21 government and government waste. I can only 22 tell you that 265,000 people who work in the 23 government think that this bill will create a 4842 1 lot of paperwork and a lot of waste. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read - 3 Senator Lack. 4 SENATOR LACK: Thank you, Mr. 5 President. 6 I'm not a sponsor of Senator 7 Bruno's bill, but I couldn't help notice when he 8 stood up and talked about it, he mentioned the 9 reinventing government process which 10 Vice-President Al Gore, under the aegis of 11 President Clinton, introduced into the federal 12 government. 13 Now, I participated in that 14 process on behalf of the National Conference of 15 State Legislatures and, Senator Gold, I've got 16 to tell you, many of the complaints that you 17 have about this bill, I must say that I had 18 about the Vice-President and President's 19 procedure as well. However, I spent a fair 20 amount of time, at least in the areas in which I 21 operate or operated at the time, specifically 22 labor and workers' compensation, in reviewing 23 the re-inventing government reports which were 4843 1 multi-volumes. They would make almost our whole 2 set of Green Books look small in comparison and 3 what they did, and while I had a lot of problems 4 with the process, some of the same complaints, 5 by the way, that you're talking about with 6 respect to Senator Bruno's bill, I've got to 7 tell you that the means notwithstanding the end 8 point which they released was at least 9 refreshing for government and was at least well 10 received, if not acted upon with all due haste 11 by the United States Congress, and I can't tell 12 you that Senator Bruno is not at least 13 attempting in the same framework to do the same 14 thing here. 15 So, quite frankly, just dismiss 16 ing it out of hand, I have some problem with. 17 I've got a problem with some of the language 18 that Senator Bruno has utilized in his bill, but 19 certainly, knowing Senator Bruno, I certainly 20 think he would be open to meaningful discussions 21 to change that in order to reach some type of 22 effective final solution which would lead 23 towards a re-inventing New York government, a 4844 1 review which I think, based upon what I saw 2 President Clinton and Vice-President Gore and 3 what I participated in at the federal level, 4 reach some kind of a fruitful end; and so I 5 certainly would -- would hope that there just 6 isn't a Pavlovian response that, if Senator 7 Bruno has proposed this it's bad, it's something 8 we shouldn't do, it's something we shouldn't do, 9 but by Senator Bruno introducing this bill and 10 the discussion that we're having here today that 11 this would lead towards some of type of 12 productive result so that, quite frankly, there 13 could be a review of New York government to lead 14 to the aims that Senator Bruno is trying to 15 achieve in his legislation. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 18 Gold. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Will my 20 distinguished colleague, Senator Bruno, please 21 yield to a question? 22 SENATOR LACK: Thought you meant 23 me, normally don't say distinguished. 4845 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 2 Bruno yields. 3 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 4 President. 5 SENATOR GOLD: I have listened to 6 Senator Lack's comments, and I know they were 7 sincere. He thinks some of your language could 8 be improved and discussed out, that you put this 9 out there, and we shouldn't reject it in a 10 Pavlovian manner, he said. 11 Senator, would you be agreeable 12 to put the bill aside, put together a little 13 meeting with some members here, CSEA, the 14 Governor's office, everybody involved, and maybe 15 we can clean it up. 16 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, I am very 17 open to negotiating the specific language 18 because I think Senator Lack is right, but what 19 I would like to do is pass the bill in this 20 house because we have a comparable bill in the 21 Assembly and some of the language has already 22 been changed in this trying to clean it up, and 23 it has not moved along in the Assembly, so we 4846 1 have a couple of different versions. So what 2 I'd like to do is establish this as a vehicle 3 that we can realistically work with and have the 4 Senate on record that we stand for improved 5 performance and reporting to the people of this 6 state, again taking a page out of the federal 7 government where we learn so much and the 8 present administration that is struggling and 9 trying so hard to improve the climate of this 10 country. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Good, Mr. 12 President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 14 Gold. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Bruno, in 16 all due respect, if you -- if you had a little 17 piece of paper that said the Senate stands for 18 change and the Senate wants to, you know, see if 19 we can improve some things, and that's a 20 statement of principle, maybe I could even sign 21 it, maybe some other people could sign it, but 22 you're not asking us to do that. You're asking 23 us today to vote on a piece of paper with very 4847 1 specific language that becomes a law, word for 2 word, and as you pointed out, Senator Lack 3 pointed out, the language is defective. No, you 4 didn't point that out, Senator Lack says he has 5 some problems with the language, the CSEA says 6 they have some problems with the bill, and, 7 Senator, I might be able to say to you, I think 8 Senator Gore is doing a terrific job and Bill 9 Clinton has already shown he deserves 10 reelection. 11 But, Senator, that's not the 12 issue. The issue is you're asking me to vote on 13 specific language, not on a principle. The 14 principle is terrific, all right? The language 15 that you're putting before us to do it is -- is 16 language that is suggested by CSEA and some 17 others should be rejected. So we've got this 18 debate. 19 I think you've done terrific. 20 We've had it out in the open, and I would say 21 that the thing to do is now maybe star the bill, 22 Senator Lack and you and I and others who are 23 concerned about the implications can have some 4848 1 meetings. We could talk to some people in the 2 Assembly. As a matter of fact, one of my 3 colleagues on this side has suggested we don't 4 use the -- the committee system enough between 5 houses to negotiate ideas which would be a 6 terrific idea, but maybe that's the way to go, 7 Senator Bruno, because you're not asking us 8 today to approve a principle. You're asking us 9 to approve a specific bill which is flawed. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 11 Bruno. 12 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. Mr. 13 President, I want to just be very, very clear. 14 The language in this bill is in no way 15 defective. This memo in no way indicates 16 defective language. What I was suggesting was 17 that we are open to see this become law and, if 18 that takes negotiation, some compromising on 19 some of the language, some of the intent, that 20 we are open and would like very much to do that, 21 and I think there will be some well intentioned 22 suggestions to do just that, to have this become 23 law before we're out of here some time in August 4849 1 -- if you keep this up, I mean. 2 Mr. President, who says the 3 debate is closed? 4 I would urge, Mr. President, that 5 my colleagues vote in favor of this to let the 6 people of this state know where the Senate 7 stands on this issue of strategic planning, 8 performance planning, reporting to the 9 Legislature and the Governor to improve 10 government here in this state. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Last section. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The - 13 Senator Leichter. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 15 if Senator Bruno would yield. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 17 Bruno, would you yield to a question? 18 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator, I missed 19 you previously. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 21 Bruno yields. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, one 23 aspect of this bill, and it's something I find 4850 1 in a lot of bills -- generally, it's Senator 2 Cook's bill; I call it the cook "magic wand" 3 where we get at asking state agencies to do all 4 of this additional work, and it never costs any 5 money. 6 Will you tell us what sort of a 7 -- how you wave that magic wand since I see no 8 appropriations in here; how is this additional 9 work going to be done without providing any 10 appropriation? 11 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator - 12 Senator Gold, I don't know if you were in the 13 room, indicated that all of this is already 14 being done, so you take the staff that's doing 15 it and send the report to the Legislature and 16 the Governor and you certainly don't need 17 additional funds if that's the case. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 19 President. If Senator Bruno would continue to 20 yield. 21 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I did 23 hear the remarks of my learned colleague, 4851 1 Senator Gold. I think what he said was that a 2 lot of this is being done through the hearings 3 of the Finance Committee, so on, and in a 4 different forum. 5 You're requiring formal reports. 6 But let me point to something which I believe is 7 not being done, and that's the last section of 8 your bill, it's on page 5, training. Now, 9 you're requiring training by the Bureau of the 10 Budget of all of these managers in the Executive 11 Department, is that right? 12 SENATOR BRUNO: That's not being 13 done now? Oh, I think a lot of training goes on 14 now within these state agencies. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: But - 16 SENATOR BRUNO: A lot of training 17 goes on, Senator. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: A lot of 19 training goes on, sir, but not in relation to 20 this bill. 21 SENATOR BRUNO: Well, whether it 22 relates to this or not, I think training is 23 training, and I think that goes on continually 4852 1 to help people perform and do their jobs. You 2 know that as well as I know that, Senator. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 4 think this is a wonderful expression. Training 5 is training, any sort of training. You train 6 someone to run a hundred mile -- I mean a 7 hundred yard race is the same thing as training 8 them to play hockey. I mean I don't understand 9 your answer, frankly. 10 You're requiring by this bill 11 very specific training in reference to the 12 reports required by this bill. That means 13 managers have to leave their office. They have 14 to come to the training session. They have to be 15 held possibly throughout the state or you've got 16 to bring people to Albany. You need people who 17 are going to give the training. All of this 18 costs money. 19 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator - 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: How are you 21 going to do it? 22 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 23 would the Senator yield to a question? 4853 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 2 Leichter, will you yield to a question? 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: I will, but I 4 was hoping you would answer my question. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: O.K. Let me 6 answer with a question. Did you attend the big 7 seminars sponsored by the Governor's office 8 re-inventing government, recently, well, within 9 the past year? I think it was held right across 10 the street. There was hundreds and hundreds of 11 people there. You didn't attend that, Senator? 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I - 13 I have -- I've -- I've a lot of serious 14 responsibilities. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: Well, the 16 Governor (unintelligible exchange with Senator 17 Leichter) -- the Governor thought this was very 18 serious, because I think most of the 19 commissioners were there and, since then, the 20 author of "Reinventing Government" for any of 21 you that haven't read the book I would recommend 22 it and I have a dozen copies, that I would make 23 available to you, at no charge, Senator, after 4854 1 that seminar sponsored by the Governor's office, 2 there has been a follow-up in training people 3 within every State Department and the objective 4 is to reinvent government, reinvent what they're 5 doing in their work and not just going along 6 putting one foot after the other and doing what 7 goes on day after day, week after week, month 8 after month, year after year with the taxpayers 9 paying the bill and, Senator, this is not a 10 novel idea. I didn't make it up. If you read 11 the book, you would know that this is what the 12 whole book focuses around. 13 The Governor of this state, I 14 think a friend of yours, started the whole 15 thing, they brought the author in. They have 16 been working with every state agency. They have 17 been in my office, implementing this program, so 18 there isn't any magic that we're trying to 19 perform. It's not so distasteful that you 20 attempt to train someone to improve their 21 performance on a job. 22 Senator, do you find that 23 objectionable? 4855 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, let 2 me first say that when we talk about 3 re-inventing government are we also re-inventing 4 how the Legislature works, or is that beyond 5 being improved upon? 6 SENATOR BRUNO: It's very 7 difficult to improve this process, Senator. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm afraid, 9 Senator, you're right, it's found itself to be 10 sort of impermutable, really not subject to 11 improvement. 12 But, Senator, I have no problem 13 at this moment with finding ways to improve 14 government and if it's -- if you wanted to do it 15 under the catchy phrase of re-inventing 16 government, that's fine. I know I was walking 17 through the maze of halls here and earlier this 18 year, there were signs all over saying "the new 19 New York." 20 I -- you know, we -- we got a lot 21 of people come up with catchy phrases. I thought 22 the old New York was pretty good. I would have 23 preferred a sign saying "the old New York," but 4856 1 be that as it may, Senator, that's not the point 2 that I'm getting at. But it's creating old New 3 York or re-inventing New York or new New York or 4 teaching people how to put one foot above the 5 other in a different way that they're doing 6 maybe it's what we should be doing, Senator, but 7 I'm just saying that all of these reports, that 8 you people love to mandate by your bills and all 9 of the training and all of the different ways of 10 doing things maybe in the long run they'll - 11 they'll save money, but you're a businessman and 12 I understand very successful and you know that 13 sometimes you've got to make initial investments 14 and you require by this bill certain action by 15 executive agencies, and I'm just pointing out to 16 you that costs money. 17 Now, if you're serious about this 18 bill, you've got to put an appropriation on it 19 and my objection is not at this moment necessar 20 ily to the merits of the bill. I'm not discuss 21 ing the merits. I'm just discussing the fact 22 that time after time, Senator Bruno, you and 23 Senator Cook who I must say I find the worst 4857 1 offender, put forward these bills that require 2 action by government but you never seem to have 3 the courage to put in any appropriation. 4 If it's such a good idea, put an 5 appropriation behind it and then, if somebody 6 attacks you and says, Oh, you're spending money, 7 you can say, but it shows that I'm really 8 serious about saving you money in the long run. 9 Now, if the sole concern is to 10 say, Look at the wonderful things I'm doing, we 11 can have -- we can save money for everybody and 12 never have to spend anything, you know, then I 13 don't think, frankly, that we can accept this as 14 a serious bill, and unless I see an appropri 15 ation, I don't know whether it even makes sense 16 to look at the merits because I don't think 17 you're being serious about it. Then it's really 18 in the nature of a press release, a press 19 statement. 20 So if you're serious, put an 21 appropriation there. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 23 last section. 4858 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 7 Stachowski to explain his vote. 8 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 9 President, explain my vote. 10 Just in the words of Senator 11 Bruno, it's a comparable bill -- he didn't 12 stumble like that when he said it in the other 13 house -- and so I don't understand why we're 14 passing this bill which the CSEA has so much 15 trouble with and the comptroller isn't 16 supporting but the Comptroller has a different 17 bill, and so if there's another alternative that 18 may not have the opposition this one has, I 19 don't understand the purpose of doing such a 20 controversial bill which apparently doesn't have 21 a bill that's going to be passed along with it 22 matching in the other house. 23 So other than gaining position 4859 1 for Senator Bruno, I don't see what the real 2 purpose of this, and I thought the reason for 3 this government is to find a bill, that we have 4 compromise, and the Governor signs that will 5 make maybe government more streamlined and more 6 effective and more efficient rather than 7 something that just puts everything in an 8 awkward position. 9 So I vote in the negative. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 11 Stachowski in the negative. 12 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 13 the negative on Calendar Number 1098 are 14 Senators Connor, Galiber, Gold, Kruger, 15 Leichter, Markowitz, Nanula, Ohrenstein, 16 Onorato, Smith, Solomon, Stachowski and Waldon. 17 Ayes 38. Excuse me. Also Senator Oppenheimer. 18 Ayes 37, nays 14. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 20 is passed. 21 SENATOR PADAVAN: Recognize 22 Senator Levy. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 4860 1 Levy. 2 SENATOR LEVY: Yes, Mr. 3 President. I was out of the chamber on June 6th 4 when a vote on 1004, Senate Print 3302-A, was 5 taken, and I'd like the record to reflect that 6 had I been in the chamber, I would have voted in 7 the affirmative on that bill. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 9 record will so indicate. 10 Senator Holland. 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 12 on page 12, I offer the following amendments to 13 Calendar Number 593, Senate Print Number 7281, 14 for Senator Daly, and ask that the said bill 15 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: So 17 ordered. 18 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 19 I wish to call up Senator Saland's bill, Print 20 Number 7834 recalled from the Assembly which is 21 now at the desk. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 23 Secretary will call the roll. 4861 1 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 2 Saland, Senate Bill Number 7834, an act to amend 3 the Domestic Relations Law. 4 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 5 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 6 bill was passed. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 8 roll on reconsideration. 9 (The Secretary called the roll on 10 reconsideration. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 13 I now offer the following amendments. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: So 15 ordered. 16 Any other housekeeping? 17 Senator Padavan. 18 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President, 19 there being no further business, I move that we 20 adjourn until tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senate 22 will stand adjourned until tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. 23 (Whereupon at 4:59 p.m., the 4862 1 Senate adjourned. ) 2 3 4 5 6 7