Tuesday, June 14, 1994

4863 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 June 14, 1994 10 3:59 p.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 4864 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senate will come to order, members take their 4 seats. Staff find their places. Ask all the 5 visitors in the gallery to rise and join with us 6 in saying the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. 7 (The assemblage repeated the 8 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 9 We're pleased to be joined by the 10 Reverend Peter G. Young of the Blessed Sacrament 11 Church in Bolton Landing for the prayer. 12 REVEREND PETER G. YOUNG: Thank 13 you, Senator. Let us pray. Almighty and 14 eternal God, may Your grace enkindle in all of 15 us a love for the many unfortunate people whom 16 poverty and misery reduce to a condition of life 17 unworthy of human beings. Arouse in the hearts 18 of those who call You Father a hunger and a 19 thirst for social justice and for fraternal 20 charity in deeds and in truth. Grant us, O 21 Lord, in this chamber of the Senate of New York 22 State peace in our days and peace to all of 23 those in New York, for their families and for 4865 1 all of those that, again, are eager to be Your 2 people. Now and forever. Amen. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 4 you, Father. 5 Reading of the Journal. 6 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 7 Monday, June 13th. The Senate met pursuant to 8 adjournment, Senator Farley in the Chair upon 9 designation of the Temporary President. Prayer 10 by Rabbi M. Mitchell Serels of New Rochelle. 11 The Journal of Friday, June 10th, was read and 12 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing 14 no objection, the Journal stands approved as 15 read. 16 Presentation of petitions. 17 Messages from the Assembly. 18 Messages from the Governor. 19 Reports of standing committees. 20 Secretary will read. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marino, 22 from the Committee on Rules, reports the 23 following bills directly for third reading: 4866 1 Senate Bill Number 5312-B, by 2 Senator Hannon, an act to amend Chapter 915 of 3 the Laws of 1982; 4 Senate Bill Number 1362, by 5 Senator Marchi, an act to amend the Judiciary 6 Law; 7 1425, by Senator LaValle, an act 8 to amend the Town Law; 9 1426, by Senator LaValle, an act 10 to amend the Town Law; 11 2068, by Senator Kuhl, an act to 12 amend -- authorize the county of Yates to convey 13 certain lands; 14 3463-A, by Senator Trunzo, Real 15 Property Tax Law; 16 4136, by Senator DeFrancisco, an 17 act to amend the Tax Law; 18 4386, by Senator Cook, an act to 19 amend the Tax Law; 20 4822, by Senator Stafford, an act 21 to amend the Town Law; 22 5799-A, by Senator Smith, 23 authorizing the city of New York to reconvey its 4867 1 interest in certain real property; 2 5933, by Senator Daly, 3 disposition of surplus monies of the East Gates 4 Water District; 5 6692, by Senator Connor, city of 6 New York to reconvey its interest in certain 7 real property; 8 6849-A, by Senator Gold, New York 9 City reconvey its interest in certain real 10 property; 11 6863-A, by Senator Wright, sale 12 of certain state lands in the town of Ellisburg, 13 Jefferson County; 14 6879, by Senator LaValle, General 15 Municipal Law; 16 6909, by Senator Pataki, 17 legalize, ratify and confirm the town of 18 Dutchess; 19 6961, by Senator Holland, General 20 Municipal Law; 21 7052, by Senator Rath, State 22 Administrative Procedure Act, in relation to 23 regulatory flexibility; 4868 1 7128, by Senator Pataki, an act 2 to amend the Town Law; 3 7142, by Senator Rath, State 4 Administrative Procedure Act; 5 7737-A, by Senator Seward, Real 6 Property Tax Law; 7 7749-A, by Senator Velella, an 8 act to amend Chapter 285 of the Laws of 1891; 9 7772, by Senator Stafford, 10 Commissioner of General Services to convey 11 certain land in Clinton County; 12 7776, by Senator Rath, State 13 Administrative Procedure Act; 14 7800, by Senator Present, Real 15 Property Tax Law; 16 7948, by Senator Wright, 17 Commissioner of General Services to convey real 18 property in St. Lawrence Psychiatric Center; 19 7975, by Senator Libous, an act 20 to amend the Tax Law; 21 8002-A, by Senator Rath, State 22 Administrative Procedure Act; 23 8167, by Senator Skelos, town of 4869 1 Hempstead to lease certain park lands; 2 8180, by Senator Tully, authorize 3 the village of Westbury to discontinue the use 4 of and sell certain park lands, reported with 5 amendments; 6 And 8547, by Senator Tully, 7 authorizing an assessor of the county of Nassau 8 to accept an application for exemption of real 9 property taxes. 10 All bills reported directly for 11 third reading. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All bills 13 reported directly to third reading. 14 Reports of select committees. 15 Communications and reports from 16 state officers. 17 Motions and resolutions. 18 Senator Skelos. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 20 on page number 27, I offer the following 21 amendments to Calendar Number 967, Senate Print 22 6733-A, and ask that said bill retain its place 23 on the Third Reading Calendar. 4870 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 2 Amendments are received and adopted. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: And also, Mr. 4 President, on page number 36, I offer the 5 following amendments to Calendar Number 429, 6 Senate Print Number 6522, and ask that said bill 7 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 9 Amendments are received and adopted. 10 Senator Spano. 11 SENATOR SPANO: Mr. President, on 12 behalf of Senator Volker, on page 13, I offer 13 the following amendments to Calendar Number 633, 14 Senate Print 1507, and ask that the bill retain 15 its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 17 Amendments are received and adopted. 18 SENATOR SPANO: On behalf of 19 Senator Libous, I wish to call up his bill, 20 Print Number 7812-A recalled from the Assembly 21 which is now at the desk. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read. 4871 1 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 2 Libous, Senate Bill Number 7182-A, an act to 3 amend the Highway Law, in relation to 4 designating a portion of state highway system as 5 the 27th Division Memorial Highway. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 7 roll. 8 SENATOR SPANO: Move to 9 reconsider the vote by which the bill was 10 passed. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: On the 12 motion to reconsider the vote by which the bill 13 was passed, the Clerk will call the roll on 14 reconsideration. 15 (The Secretary called the roll on 16 reconsideration. ) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40. 18 SENATOR SPANO: Offer the 19 following amendments. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 21 Amendments received and adopted. 22 SENATOR SPANO: On behalf of 23 Senator LaValle, on page 37 of the starred 4872 1 calendar, offer the following amendments to 2 Calendar 539, Senate Print 6882, ask that the 3 bill retain its place on the Third Reading 4 Calendar. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 6 Amendments are received and adopted. 7 SENATOR SPANO: Thank you. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Present. 10 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 11 I move that we adopt the Resolution Calendar. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Gold. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Could we lay aside 16 temporarily on the Resolution Calendar 3993 by 17 Senator Stafford, and Senator Kuhl has a Resolu 18 tion 3961, which I just really want to ask if 19 you'll open it up for -- oh, there you are, open 20 it up for co-sponsorship. 21 SENATOR KUHL: That's fine. 22 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Thank 23 you. Put me on it. 4873 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 2 with the exception of 3993, we adopt the 3 Resolution Calendar. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 5 to accept the Resolution Calendar, to adopt the 6 Resolution Calendar with the exception of 7 Resolution 3993. All those in favor signify by 8 saying aye. 9 (Response of "Aye.") 10 Opposed nay. 11 (There was no response. ) 12 The Resolution Calendar is 13 adopted with the exception of 3993. 14 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 15 I believe I have a privileged resolution at the 16 desk. May I have the title read and act upon it 17 now. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 19 will read the title of the privileged 20 resolution. 21 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 22 Resolution, by Senator Present, joining the 23 Westfield Chamber of Commerce in saluting 4874 1 Welch's. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: On the 3 motion to accept the resolution, all those in 4 favor signify by saying aye. 5 (Response of "Aye.") 6 Opposed nay. 7 (There was no response.) 8 The resolution is adopted. 9 Senator Present, that brings us 10 to the calendar. 11 SENATOR PRESENT: Let's take the 12 non-controversial calendar. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the non-controversial calendar. 15 THE SECRETARY: On page 4, 16 Calendar Number 199, by Senator Skelos, Senate 17 Bill Number 6552-A, an act to amend the 18 Correction Law. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 20 please. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 22 bill aside. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4875 1 291, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 29-C, 2 an act to amend the Penal Law. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 4 last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 12 is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 400, by member of the Assembly Brodsky, Assembly 15 Bill Number 9628-A, Environmental Conservation 16 Law, in relation to the state Superfund 17 Management Board. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 19 last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 23 roll. 4876 1 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 4 is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 475, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 7 6416-B, incorporate the Twin District Volunteer 8 Firefighters Benevolent Association. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 10 last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 478, by Senator Saland. 21 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 22 for the day, please. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 4877 1 bill aside for the day. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 555, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 4 6633-B, an act to amend the Public Health Law. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 6 last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 563, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 17 7386, proposing an amendment to the 18 Constitution. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 20 last - 21 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 23 bill -- lay the resolution aside. 4878 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 720, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 3 7382. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 6 bill aside. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 721, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 9 7383, Environmental Conservation Law. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 11 last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 722, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 22 7384, Environmental Conservation Law. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 4879 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 2 bill aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 723, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 5 7385, Environmental Conservation Law. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 8 bill aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 828, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 11 3917-A, Environmental Conservation Law. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 13 last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 21 is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 896, by Senator Rath, Senate Bill Number 7743-A, 4880 1 an act to amend the State Administrative 2 Procedure Act. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 4 last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 12 is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 898, by Senator Rath, Senate Bill Number 7999, 15 an act to amend the State Administrative 16 Procedure Act. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 18 last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 4881 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 900, by Senator Rath, Senate Bill Number 8005-A, 6 State Administrative Procedure Act. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 8 last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 941, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 19 7174-A, Environmental Conservation Law. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 21 last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 23 act shall take effect immediately. 4882 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 2 roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6 is passed. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 943, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 7784, 9 Environmental Conservation Law. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay aside. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 12 bill aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 945, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 7786, 15 Environmental Conservation Law. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 17 last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 4883 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 2 is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 946, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 7... 5 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 7 bill aside. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 1040, by Senator Johnson, Senate - 10 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 12 bill aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 1121, by Senator Wright, Senate Bill Number - 15 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, 16 please. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 18 bill aside. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 1160, reported directly for third reading 21 earlier today, Senate Bill Number 5312-B, by 22 Senator Hannon, an act to amend Chapter 915 of 23 the Laws of 1982 amending the Public Authorities 4884 1 Law. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 11 is passed. 12 Senator Present, that completes 13 the non-controversial calendar. What's your 14 pleasure? 15 SENATOR PRESENT: The 16 controversial calendar, please. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 18 will read the controversial calendar. 19 THE SECRETARY: On page 4, 20 Calendar Number 199, by Senator Skelos, Senate 21 Bill Number 6552-A, an act to amend the 22 Correction Law, in relation to enacting the sex 23 offender registration act. 4885 1 SENATOR GOLD: Could we have one 2 day on this, please? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Skelos, Senator Gold is asking for one day? Lay 5 the bill aside for the day. 6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Stafford. 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: We had one 10 bill laid aside that -- or excuse me, one 11 resolution laid aside today, and it's the 12 resolution designating the report of the fiscal 13 committees on the Executive Budget, in effect 14 the official intent of the Legislature. I just 15 wondered if it - 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 17 return to motions and resolutions. We'll ask 18 the Secretary to read Resolution 3993. 19 SENATOR STAFFORD: Hold on. I - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Stafford. 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would thank 23 the Deputy Majority Leader for the opportunity 4886 1 to present the resolution, but why don't we lay 2 it aside again. 3 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay the 4 resolution aside. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 6 resolution aside. 7 The Clerk will continue the 8 controversial calendar calling Calendar Number 9 563. 10 THE SECRETARY: On page 11, 11 Calendar Number 563, by Senator Johnson, Senate 12 Bill Number 7386, proposing an amendment to the 13 Constitution, in relation to legislative review 14 of rules and regulations. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Johnson, Senator Gold has asked for an 18 explanation. 19 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 20 last fall a series of hearings were held by the 21 Senate Environmental Conservation Committee, the 22 Legislative Commission on Toxic Substances and 23 Hazardous Waste, the Legislative Commission on 4887 1 Waste Management and the Administrative 2 Regulations Review Commission. 3 During those hearings, the 4 information was presented to us repetitively 5 that regulations were enacted by departments, in 6 this case the Department of Environmental 7 Conservation. There's no doubt this same type 8 of over-regulation is taking place in other 9 agencies. We do have the Administrative 10 Regulations Review Commission to oversee 11 regulations which come out and make 12 recommendations, but they can't roll back those 13 recommendations. 14 This would give us the same power 15 as a legislative body which now resides in the 16 bodies of two adjoining states, Connecticut and 17 New Jersey, where if they find that a department 18 has issued regulations for which there is no 19 statutory authority, they would be able to bring 20 it up in both houses and vote to negate that 21 regulation if that were the case. 22 It's a Constitutional Amendment 23 and it gives a little bit of the power back to 4888 1 the legislators which we thought we had. We 2 thought the laws were made by the people's 3 representatives in concert with the will of the 4 people, and we find out the laws are made by the 5 bureaucracy. 6 This gives a chance to correct 7 those instances where the regulations go beyond 8 the intent of the law. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Gold. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Will the 12 Senator yield to a question? 13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 yields. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I want to 17 understand this and, as you know, I certainly 18 support the concept of legislative oversight. I 19 don't have a problem with that, but right now we 20 pass a law, we give an agency the authority to 21 do rule making and regulations, and that law is 22 not only passed by the Legislature; it must be 23 signed into law by the Governor. 4889 1 SENATOR JOHNSON: That's correct. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Now, under this 3 proposal, can the Legislature act to void 4 regulations now without the Governor? 5 SENATOR JOHNSON: That's 6 correct. 7 SENATOR GOLD: You're saying 8 "correct", and my distinguished colleague 9 Senator Present is shaking his head no. Under 10 your proposal, if it was an amendment to the 11 Constitution -- yes. Senator Present is 12 changing his opinion. 13 SENATOR JOHNSON: I think my 14 answer is correct, Senator, that essentially - 15 SENATOR GOLD: I think you're 16 right. 17 SENATOR JOHNSON: -- the 18 Legislature -- the Governor doesn't sign 19 regulations, he doesn't sign onto regulations. 20 If we feel a department has gone too far, we can 21 negate those regulations to bring the 22 regulations in accordance with the law that's 23 been already passed and signed by the Governor. 4890 1 SENATOR GOLD: Senator yield to a 2 question? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Gold. 5 Senator Johnson, do you continue 6 to yield? 7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 yields. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, right now 11 if we believe that there is a regulation and we 12 believe that that regulation is not in 13 accordance with the legislation that we passed 14 and was signed into law by the Governor, we can 15 change our law; we can clarify a law, and we can 16 pass a new law then which is signed by the 17 Governor. Isn't that in line with what the 18 process is today where the law takes its initial 19 effect because the Legislature and the Governor 20 work together on that? 21 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, the - 22 I think the question is whether the Legislature 23 can play a productive role in the making of the 4891 1 laws or whether we'll have some general 2 authority assumed by the bureaucracy which makes 3 regulations which -- with which we may not 4 concur, but with which the executive branch has 5 no problem and, therefore, we have no way to 6 correct those regulations. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, will you 8 answer one last question? If your resolution 9 becomes part of the Constitution, how, in 10 effect, will it work? Would each house vote 11 separately? Will we have joint meetings? Can 12 either house void a regulation acting alone? 13 SENATOR JOHNSON: No, both houses 14 have to adopt by majority, have to adjudicate 15 this regulation. 16 SENATOR GOLD: By sort of a 17 concurrent resolution or something? 18 SENATOR JOHNSON: Apparently. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Dollinger. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Dollinger. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 23 President, will the sponsor yield to a 4892 1 question? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Johnson, do you yield to Senator Dollinger? 4 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Johnson yields, Senator Dollinger. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, if 8 we disagree with a regulation promulgated by an 9 agency, don't we have the power through the 10 budget to cut off the funds to achieve the goals 11 of that regulatory authority? 12 SENATOR JOHNSON: While we do 13 have two houses and we do have a Governor, and 14 everyone plays a role, and if the Governor has 15 no problem with the improper assumption of 16 authority by his own agency, I'm sure he's not 17 going to take their budgetary funds away. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But 19 certainly, again through you, Mr. President, if 20 the sponsor will continue to yield. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Johnson, do you continue to yield? Senator 23 Johnson yields. 4893 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But certainly 2 through the budget process, when all these 3 issues about how we spend our money in this 4 state are resolved, we as the Legislature and 5 certainly the other side of the aisle as the 6 majority in this house speaking on behalf of 7 this house in those negotiations, have the 8 ability to say to the Governor, We think that 9 these regulators are doing something that 10 disagrees with their original intent, and we 11 don't want to fund them any more. We could cut 12 those funds out of the budget, could we not? 13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I 14 don't have to tell you that a budget is a 15 process of negotiation, and it's -- I want X and 16 you want Y and she wants Z, and we each get what 17 we want, but we don't eliminate what other 18 people think should be in there, and that's a 19 problem, and I think if -- if the bureaucracy 20 has no problem, the second floor has no problem 21 with their agencies and what they're doing, 22 they're not going to be effective in helping us 23 regain what we feel is the legislative 4894 1 initiative. 2 I mean I don't have to tell you, 3 Senator Dollinger, because you know it, you've 4 gone up many times and apologized for things 5 that happen up here. You said, I don't want you 6 to say that, I want you to say we have the 7 authority to change it, I'll get my majority in 8 my house and the other house to eliminate that 9 regulation. We don't have to ask the Governor 10 or the bureaucracy to give us back our powers 11 and not impose things on our people which we 12 didn't intend to be imposed upon them. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But we have 14 -- again through you Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Johnson, do you continue to yield? 17 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Johnson continues to yield. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: We currently 21 have the legislative power in conjunction with 22 the Governor to accomplish what you want to 23 accomplish in this Constitutional Amendment; 4895 1 isn't that correct? 2 SENATOR JOHNSON: Theoretically. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Any time that 4 a regulation is promulgated that this 5 Legislature feels is inconsistent with our 6 intent, our legislative intent is expressed in 7 statute approved by both houses and signed by 8 the Governor, if we think the regulators were 9 wrong we can go back and simply take the power 10 to make that regulation away from them, can't 11 we? 12 SENATOR JOHNSON: You asking me 13 to yield to another question, Senator? 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, I did 15 ask you to yield. 16 SENATOR JOHNSON: What was that 17 question again, Senator? Would you rephrase it? 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 19 through you, Mr. President. We currently have 20 the legislative power which is the power that 21 we, in this house, exercise in conjunction with 22 the Assembly and with the Governor, all three 23 players have to be a part of the exercise of the 4896 1 legislative power, but we have the power if an 2 agency promulgates a regulation, to simply take 3 that power away by changing the underlying 4 statute with which we gave them the original 5 authority. Isn't that correct? 6 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I 7 don't think you listened to my previous answer. 8 My previous answer is that you can't do that 9 unless the Governor concurs in the legislative 10 opinion. If not, he will not sign it, so if his 11 agencies make regulations going beyond the 12 intent of the law which he wanted but he 13 couldn't get in legislation but he's getting it 14 now by regulation, we have no power to take that 15 away unless the Governor agrees that he gave too 16 much freedom to his bureaucracy and he 17 personally tells them to back off. So if he 18 agrees with what they're doing because they went 19 beyond our intent but not beyond the Governor's 20 intent, perhaps then he'll let them get away 21 with it, and we'll not be able to stop it. So 22 he gets two bites of the apple, and we don't 23 think he should. We would like to get another 4897 1 bite of it for ourselves. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 3 through you, Mr. President, and just so I 4 understand the term, it takes three coordinated 5 powers to create the law which creates this 6 legislation, but under this amendment it would 7 take only two to take it away. 8 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, as I 9 said, we're the Legislature. We're closest to 10 the people. When people complain to us of their 11 problems, and we can't say we'd like to change 12 that, we think they went beyond their authority 13 but the Governor won't sign a bill diminishing 14 the power of the agency, then we're powerless. 15 We're restoring the power which 16 we should have, to see that regulations concur 17 with the laws that we passed, and if a majority 18 in each house agree, we will have that power 19 restored, which I think we should do. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K., Mr. 21 President. On the bill. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Dollinger on the bill. 4898 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 2 President, I look at this bill as a very 3 fundamental restructuring of the constitutional 4 powers of this state. 5 I think Senator Johnson properly 6 points out that it takes three players to put a 7 law into effect: The majority in this house, 8 the majority in the other house and the 9 signature of the Governor who, although he acts 10 as the executive with the power in the agencies, 11 he's also law making as well as we are because 12 without his signature, unless two-thirds of this 13 body overrules his veto, we can't pass 14 legislation. 15 So what it takes is three people 16 to make rules, but what this bill would say is 17 that only two people can change the rules, and 18 it seems to me we have budgetary authority. We 19 can control by extending, limiting spending, 20 taking people out of the budget, taking 21 inspectors, taking regulators out of the 22 budget. We've got the power to do that. 23 One thing I point out, although I 4899 1 agree with Senator Johnson that the Senate and 2 Assembly are close to the people and are 3 responsive to the people, certainly whoever 4 lives on the second floor is also responsible to 5 the people. They have the same responsiveness 6 that we do, at least theoretically, I think as 7 Senator Johnson put it, and we have -- they have 8 an obligation to respond to the people as much 9 as we do. 10 I think this is a very, very 11 dangerous concept to take a constitutionally 12 enshrined balance of powers and turn them 13 topsy-turvy because we may, on specific 14 instances, disagree with the way agencies 15 exercise the broad authority that we gave them. 16 If we want to take that broad power away, we've 17 clearly got the ability to do it. We do it the 18 same way we do everything else, through a 19 conjunction of the Assembly, the Senate and the 20 Governor. 21 I don't think we should tinker 22 with our constitutional system, and the balance 23 of power inherent in that system simply because 4900 1 there's a complaint that we're over-regulating. 2 If we're over-regulating, let's do our own home 3 work. Let's go back, figure out where we're 4 regulating too much, and let's collectively, the 5 same way we created the power to regulate, let's 6 take it away. 7 When that happens, Senator 8 Johnson, I would join you because I also agree 9 that there are excesses in our -- excesses in 10 our regulatory power exercised by the agencies, 11 but I'm not going to tinker with our 12 constitutional systems to try to rectify that. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Gold. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 16 Mr. President, for the first five 17 minutes reading my remarks, I want to repeat 18 what Senator Dollinger said, because I think 19 he's right on target, and now I can be very, 20 very brief. 21 It seems to me that, when I see 22 legislation like this, it's not because it's 23 motivated by any evil, because Senator Johnson 4901 1 couldn't do that, wouldn't know how to do that, 2 but it's a recognition that we just do not do 3 our job. That's what it really is all about. 4 If we take a look at some of the 5 things we have said, not anybody else, but what 6 we have said over the last years, we've said we 7 give too much power by regulation to the 8 agencies and, therefore, our own Administrative 9 Regulations Review Commission is going to review 10 every piece of legislation and determine whether 11 or not the granting of power is done properly, 12 and Senator Present used to do that. Senator 13 Present was the chair of that committee and we 14 used to ask, and we used to get reports and the 15 Administrative Regulations Review Commission 16 would take a look and say, No, we like the way 17 this power is being granted. 18 Now, we go to step two. When the 19 Administrative Regulations Review Committee and 20 then Commission was established, it was envis 21 ioned that we, as part of legislative oversight, 22 would take a look at what's going -- at what 23 goes on and go from there and really have 4902 1 legislative oversight. 2 Now, I'm not now going to get 3 involved in name calling. I think, while 4 Senator Present chaired the committee, he did a 5 phenomenal job and an enormous amount of work 6 was done, and I think all of the chairpersons 7 get credit, but maybe that committee should be 8 four times the size. Maybe it should be that 9 every one of the committee chairs in their own 10 substantive area ought to be examining regula 11 tions, when all of a sudden now in 1994 we're 12 going to wake up and say that we in some way 13 have been asleep at the switch and, therefore, 14 we're going to change the Constitution of the 15 state of New York to change the law-making 16 process of the state of New York because that's 17 what you're doing. You're telling every 18 governor from here on in that, well, we'll agree 19 on the laws, but when it comes to their 20 application on a day-by-day basis, Governor, 21 you're out of it, and it's just an absurdity and 22 we're not suggesting there shouldn't be 23 legislative oversight. We have that. 4903 1 I don't know what this straw was, 2 Senator Johnson, that breaks the camel's back in 3 your mind. Maybe it's Environmental Conserva 4 tion. Maybe it's in Motor Vehicle, I don't 5 know, but whatever it is, we can deal with those 6 regulations through our committee, deal with the 7 agency or put in a statute that amends the grant 8 of authority and then the Legislature and the 9 Governor, in a proper law-making manner will 10 take on that job and get it done. 11 But the concept of putting in a 12 change to the Constitution, I mean we are, in my 13 opinion, belittling the Constitution and what 14 it's supposed to be versus statute law with the 15 concept, and making, as Senator Dollinger has so 16 aptly described, an enormous change in the 17 philosophy of our laws. 18 I certainly am going to vote 19 against it, and I would urge others to vote 20 against it. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 22 is on the resolution. All those in favor 23 signify by saying aye. 4904 1 (Response of "Aye.") 2 Opposed nay. 3 SENATOR GOLD: In the 4 negative. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Clerk 6 will call the roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 9 the results. 10 Senator Mendez to explain her 11 vote. 12 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes, Mr. 13 President, to explain my vote. 14 Ordinarily I would have supported 15 -- would have voted against this resolution. 16 However, a case in point is the Department of 17 Conservation of the state of New York. It has 18 shown consistently its horrendous amount of 19 environmental racism in terms of projects that 20 should have been re-examined and critically 21 analyzed before establishing, whether it is 22 medical incinerators or what have you in 23 minority districts in the city of New York. 4905 1 Therefore, I think that, if this 2 resolution goes through, after next year's 3 approval here in the Legislature, that at least 4 we would have an opportunity to, in fact, review 5 those regulations put forth by some of the 6 agencies and do something about it. 7 Thank you, Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Mendez, how do you vote, in the negative? 10 Announce the results. 11 Senator Mendez, are you - 12 Senator Mendez, in the affirmative or in the 13 negative? 14 SENATOR MENDEZ: No, no, no, I 15 vote yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Mendez in the affirmative. 18 Clerk will announce the results. 19 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 20 the negative on Calendar Number 3563 are 21 Senators Dollinger, Galiber, Gold, Kruger, 22 Leichter, Markowitz, Montgomery, Ohrenstein, 23 Onorato, Smith and Stachowski. Ayes 44, nays 4906 1 11. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 resolution is adopted. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 720, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 6 7382, an act to amend the Environmental 7 Conservation Law, in relation to action on 8 permit applications. 9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Explanation. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Johnson, explanation has been asked by both 13 Senator Leichter and Senator Oppenheimer. 14 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 15 one of the findings of our hearings was that 16 permits were delayed not only for months but 17 sometimes for years, applications for permits 18 duly submitted legally -- for legally advanced 19 projects under the state Department of 20 Environmental Conservation. 21 They would send back a permit and 22 say, We need more information in answer to this 23 question, and then a month or two later or six 4907 1 months later, you get it back, there's some 2 other question they want answered. 3 Under the Uniform Procedures Act, 4 there's a time limit when these have to be 5 processed, but there's no limit; they can 6 indefinitely send these applications back and 7 forth causing great inconvenience to business, 8 discouragement to people to expand their 9 businesses, inability to resolve problems 10 expeditiously, costing businesses a lot of money 11 and costing a lot of jobs in the state of New 12 York. 13 All we're saying here is when the 14 DEC receives an application, they should examine 15 it, say what's wrong with it, what is incomplete 16 and what's got to be answered, additional ques 17 tions, give all this information to the appli 18 cant at one time so he can resubmit it with 19 everything that's required and get the thing 20 processed. 21 It's simple as that, and it's 22 something that almost goes without saying, but 23 it has not been the procedure of the Department 4908 1 of Environmental Conservation. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 3 recognizes Senator Leichter. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 5 my colleagues, on the bill. You know, we're 6 dealing here with the safety and health of 7 people. We all have these examples before us of 8 people of this state that have been injured, 9 damaged and in some instances killed, whether 10 it's Love Canal, whether it's other toxic dump 11 sites, or other dangerous pollutants that may be 12 used and come into the atmosphere. 13 We have a Department of 14 Environmental Conservation, and they're charged 15 with trying to protect the public. Do they 16 always do the right thing? No. Do they always 17 do a good job? No. Do they always do it 18 expeditiously? No. But there are ways to try to 19 make that department function better, but one 20 way not to -- to -- that is not going to work, 21 it's not going to make that department function 22 more efficiently, and that is going to have the 23 effect of hurting the people that we're supposed 4909 1 to be helping and saving them from environmental 2 harm. So cripple the department and unfortun 3 ately, Senator Johnson -- and he's done some 4 very good work on environmental matters; I serve 5 on his committee, I'm the ranking member; he's a 6 lovely chairman to work with, but there are 7 certain blind spots. I'm sorry to say so, 8 Senator Johnson, and to take this power of the 9 department to approve or deny permits and to say 10 that, if a permit is initially not denied but is 11 returned because more information is needed, 12 that then you can not ask for any additional 13 information just doesn't make sense because it 14 may well be that, let's say, on the permit 15 application there are 12 questions. The 16 applicant failed to answer question number 9 so 17 you say, Please answer question number 9. By 18 virtue of the answer to question number 9, you 19 may find that you need additional information. 20 Oh, we didn't realize that this particular 21 condition existed. Therefore, will you please 22 tell us this information. Under Senator 23 Johnson's bill, they couldn't do that. 4910 1 Now, that just doesn't make sense 2 to try to make these blanket prescriptions, so I 3 -- I beg of you, Senator Johnson -- well, I'm 4 not going to beg. I suggest to you, Senator 5 Johnson and my colleagues, this is an ill 6 advised bill. It's again, where you see a prob 7 lem and, instead of trying to -- trying to limit 8 the problem, trying to deal with it, you come up 9 with a sort of a shot gun approach which almost 10 obliterates the power of the department to act 11 knowledgably and intelligently on applications. 12 And what are those applications? 13 They're looking at how we can protect the public 14 from harm. That's really what that department 15 does. So don't cripple their power because, if 16 you cripple their power, you are going to create 17 harm, injury and maybe even loss of life to the 18 people of this state. 19 It's an ill-advised bill. 20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Mr. 21 President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 23 recognizes Senator Oppenheimer. 4911 1 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I actually 2 don't want to reiterate what's been said. I 3 think that the point that Senator Johnson made 4 about the delay in processing is -- is very 5 often accurate, and I think we're sending in a 6 bulldozer here where a shovel could -- could do 7 the job. 8 Perhaps there might be some way 9 we could lay down greater time limits than we 10 currently have, but the primary way of regulat 11 ing activities in this state in construction 12 projects is through the permit process and often 13 the first permit doesn't contain all the 14 information that's really needed, and so then 15 the second permit application comes in and 16 because there's not enough detail, DEC sees that 17 other questions must be asked and to simply 18 cripple it and say that they can't continue to 19 ask questions is to open us up to, I think, a 20 lot of liability, and I think really cripple our 21 Department of Environmental Conservation which, 22 after all, is there to protect all of us. 23 So I think it's imperative that 4912 1 the DEC be given the authority that it -- power 2 to maintain its authority, and I think this 3 should be rejected out of hand. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Dollinger, on the - 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I believe 7 Senator Mendez was first. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Mendez. 10 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you. Mr. 11 President, again DEC has had the power to 12 protect all -- every citizen and neighborhood in 13 the city and the state of New York. It has 14 chosen to really practice environmental racism 15 as it is putting the city of New York through 16 dirt in the streets and I think this bill - 17 Senator Johnson's bill will not, in fact, tie 18 the hand of that agency to proceed and do and 19 protect the people of this state of New York. 20 I want to mention that, if there 21 is one agency in the state of New York that 22 shows the most horrible record in terms of 23 having any one member of my -- of the minority, 4913 1 of any one minority, in a top policy position 2 that it's horrible what is occurring at that 3 time. Not one Puerto Rican, not one African 4 American, not one Asian, nobody, no 5 representation at all of any one of these groups 6 has been found at the present time in DEC. 7 So no wonder it's the policy 8 reflects the attitude that this agency has had 9 towards some minority neighborhoods in the city 10 of New York. 11 I think this is a good bill. It 12 will not tie the hands of the bureaucrats in the 13 agency, and it might enlighten them a bit to the 14 effect that they have to be more sensitive to 15 the needs of all the different communities in 16 the state of New York. 17 I will be voting yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 19 recognizes Senator Dollinger. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 21 President, will the sponsor yield for a 22 question? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4914 1 Johnson, do you yield to Senator Dollinger? 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, 3 what's the practical consequence of this 4 proposed change in the law? What -- what 5 actually happens if there's a first return that 6 they need more information, and then the DEC 7 determines after reviewing the information 8 supplied that additional information is required 9 in their judgment? Your bill, as I understand 10 it, would say that they couldn't write the 11 applicant back and say, We need more information 12 and so they're now left with a -- they realize 13 they need more information but they can't ask 14 for it. What's the consequence of that? Is 15 that your interpretation of the bill? And 16 then - 17 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, let me 18 tell you what might happen, Senator, if it were 19 an enlightened agency we're dealing with, let me 20 tell you what will happen. They will go over 21 their application, see what information they 22 need. They will put all the questions, all the 23 requisite information, blanks or in whatever 4915 1 form that they need: These are the things that 2 we need, A, B, C, D, et cetera. That would be 3 completed by the applicant, would be processed 4 within the 90 days provided for under the 5 Uniform Procedures Act and the permit would 6 either be issued or denied based on that, but 7 they could not deny it any further for 8 incomplete -- so they wouldn't have to reject it 9 for incompleteness and have that 90 days running 10 over and over, which they've done in the past. 11 So the agency would get on the 12 ball and do a proper job. That's all that this 13 is really intended to do, have them do their job 14 right the first time. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 16 through you, Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Johnson, again, do you continue to yield? 19 Senator Johnson yields. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What is the 21 effect -- what is the effect if a bureaucrat 22 makes a mistake in reviewing the application the 23 first time, sends out information that he needs 4916 1 more data and then realizes that he should have 2 asked more questions that he didn't ask the 3 first time around. If that happens, if they 4 drop the ball, to use your analogy, what then 5 happens? You now have the DEC having 6 significant questions for which it cannot ask 7 the applicant for additional information. Do 8 they deny the permit? Do they approve the 9 permit? What do they do? 10 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, right now 11 -- right now they can do what they please and 12 it's not a happy thing for the regulated 13 community. It's not a happy thing for the 14 citizens of our state, for the simple reason 15 that there's something that should be done or 16 corrected or a new process to be permitted and 17 the department fools around for six months or a 18 year and six months. The people in the 19 community are endangered as well as the business 20 being impeded in their activities and everyone 21 is endangered because the DEC is not doing their 22 job. They should do their job right. 23 As far as the person, I'm sure he 4917 1 wouldn't be named Richard Dollinger, but what 2 ever his name would be, if he doesn't do his job 3 well, he'd get a different job in short order or 4 he would have a new boss or something like that, 5 and the agency would run effectively and 6 efficiently. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 8 through you, Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Johnson, do you continue to yield? Senator 11 Johnson yields. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The DEC makes 13 a mistake, it ends up with insufficient informa 14 tion to make a decision. Under your statute, if 15 it becomes law, they can't ask the applicant to 16 provide more. What does DEC then do if they 17 deny the permit because they don't have the 18 additional information? We'll go to court and I 19 would assume what the courts would do. They'd 20 say, O.K., DEC, you need more. We're going to 21 give you more. Or would they say the DEC 22 doesn't need any more and we're going to require 23 the DEC to issue the permit even though in the 4918 1 regulator's judgment, they don't have enough 2 information to do it? 3 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I 4 think the agency has to figure out how they're 5 going to handle the situation. The simple fact 6 is that we can't go on like this delaying for 7 years issuance of permits costing a lot of 8 money, interfering with jobs. I mean one of the 9 principal things we've heard at our hearings 10 were all the jobs lost in this state, all the 11 expansion not taking place in the state, all the 12 factories will be out of this state because of 13 the activities of the DEC. 14 I'm not here to beat on them. 15 I'm here to correct their operation, and this is 16 one method to correct their operation, and I 17 might say that a lot of people understand and 18 agree with this, the Council of Mayors, Business 19 Council, county association, all agree that this 20 is one of the major problems that we have in the 21 state, and they've got to correct it so they've 22 got to do their job in the first place. Got to 23 make the application properly, they've got to do 4919 1 their job properly, say what's wrong with it and 2 give the applicant an opportunity to respond to 3 it. 4 So this is going to be good for 5 the business environment, the environmental 6 environment I would say, the healthy environment 7 of this state, to get this act straightened up 8 but the DEC can't do it without help. If they 9 ask for more money, if they don't have enough 10 computers, if they don't have the people, they 11 should get the experts to carry on, but they 12 should not be permitted to carry on as they have 13 in the past. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 15 President, on the bill. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Dollinger on the bill. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I guess I've 19 been persuaded in the course of the discussion 20 that what this bill really does is create 21 further litigation and further problems because 22 I appreciate -- Senator Johnson, let me start 23 off by saying I appreciate the intent behind 4920 1 this bill. I've represented litigants prior to 2 coming to this chamber, in permit applications 3 before DEC and we, frankly, were run around the 4 mulberry bush on a number of occasions many 5 different times, and it's not a capital project 6 that's tied up, it's not a happy process when 7 you're told that you didn't answer question 8 number 10 properly, we need more information to 9 do it. 10 But it seems to me that the 11 consequence of this is that you take a 12 bureaucratic mistake or bureaucratic 13 intransigence, the very thing you're trying to 14 overcome, and what you do is you create an error 15 that suddenly becomes either a denial of a 16 permit prematurely when additional information 17 is necessary or the granting of the permit 18 without sufficient information to justify, and I 19 think that's only going to -- going to generate 20 additional gobs of litigation. It will be a 21 wonderful thing for my profession because 22 lawyers will be contesting the issuance of these 23 permits when they haven't -- the applicants have 4921 1 been -- can't get a second batch of information 2 to DEC or, for that matter, DEC can't ask for 3 it. 4 I think you're going to see a ton 5 of litigation when these permits are either 6 issued based on insufficient information or 7 denied based on insufficient information and the 8 one thing we ought to be doing in our 9 protection, our shared concern for protecting 10 the environment is to make sure that DEC 11 operates with all the information. 12 I agree with one thing you said 13 Senator completely, and that is the person who 14 continually makes that mistake ought to find 15 another job, but that's a responsibility that 16 rests with the Commissioner of DEC, with his 17 deputy commissioner, with the second floor and 18 the person who's primarily responsible for those 19 executive agencies. 20 I share the frustration. I wish 21 I could share the optimism that this was a 22 solution. Senator. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4922 1 Secretary will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 8 the results. 9 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 10 the negative on Calendar Number 720 are Senators 11 Connor, Dollinger, Galiber, Gold, Goodman, 12 Kruger, Markowitz, Montgomery, Ohrenstein, 13 Oppenheimer and Smith. Ayes 45, nays 11. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 15 is passed. 16 Secretary will read the 17 controversial calendar. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 722, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 20 7384, an act to amend the Environmental 21 Conservation Law. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4923 1 Johnson, Senator Gold has asked for an 2 explanation. 3 SENATOR JOHNSON: This is, I 4 don't believe, a controversial bill. I don't 5 believe it would have any negatives at all. 6 Just to reassure my friends on 7 the other side of the aisle, the DEC has the 8 opportunity now when a permit is being issued to 9 request financial security, and there's no 10 limitations on the type of financial security, 11 recently they've been asking for - 12 SENATOR GOLD: Last section. 13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator 14 Leichter wanted to hear the explanation. I'll 15 have to tell him privately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 17 will read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 4924 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 2 is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 723, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 5 7385, Environmental Conservation Law. 6 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: 7 Explanation. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Johnson, Senator Oppenheimer has asked for an 10 explanation. 11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator 12 Oppenheimer, this -- this is a real bill. You 13 can fight over this one. 14 This is another recommendation 15 that came out of our hearings and what it says, 16 Senator, is that neither Section 3-0301 or 17 19-0301 of the Environmental Conservation Law 18 shall be the basis of formulating of any 19 regulations. In other words, these are general 20 grants of power, not specific legislative 21 enactments, and should not be used as the basis 22 of legislation, but particular laws passed by 23 both bodies and signed by the Governor shall be 4925 1 the only basis for making those type of 2 regulations. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4 will read the last section. 5 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Oh, may I 6 be recognized? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 8 will recognize Senator Oppenheimer. 9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: This is a 10 very, very damaging bill. What this bill would 11 prevent the DEC from promulgating their own 12 rules and regulations under the general 13 authority. They have a general grant of powers 14 under Title 3, General Functions, Powers, Duties 15 and Jurisdiction, and what this bill would say 16 is that they can't promulgate their own powers 17 and their own regulations and the rules and in 18 no way does it look to anticipate the myriad of 19 very unique environmental problems that come 20 along continuously. There are just countless 21 problems that we can't see in advance and beyond 22 that this is so damaging because this totally 23 tries to rearrange the functioning of the levels 4926 1 of government, the different, not levels, the 2 different departments of government. 3 It is giving to the Legislature 4 the powers that reside in the executive branch. 5 It would just totally reverse our historic 6 balance of powers because if this -- if these 7 general powers were not granted to the DEC, then 8 every problem that came along, environmentally 9 would have to be handled by the Legislature and 10 we would have to pass a different bill on every 11 issue that would come up, and many of them are 12 highly technical, highly specific, and we don't 13 have the kind of expertise to deal with that, so 14 I mean this -- this is really a very poor bill, 15 and -- and it should be noted that the EPL has 16 given it its absolute worst, it strongly opposes 17 this bill, and has three smoke stacks to prove 18 it. 19 So I'll be voting in the 20 negative. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 22 recognizes Senator Dollinger. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll yield 4927 1 the floor to Senator Connor, Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Connor. 4 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you. 5 Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator. 6 Mr. President, this bill seems to 7 be an outcry against modern government. You 8 look at it historically, the concept of rule 9 making or regulation-making developed as a 10 rather progressive, and I don't say liberal or 11 conservative, a progressive means of dealing 12 with complicated problems toward the end of the 13 last century. 14 Interestingly enough, on the 15 federal level, rule-making powers were first 16 challenged in cases involving the Department of 17 the Interior in the 1880s. 18 Harking back to public 19 administration, I remember a case involving a 20 guy named Gifford or this or that, and the 21 Department of the Interior. The need for it, of 22 course, was that it's fine for the legislative 23 body to set policy in an area such as the 4928 1 environment, protection of natural resources, 2 but we couldn't possibly -- couldn't possibly 3 deal with and enact such comprehensive detailed 4 regulations as would be necessary to deal with 5 particular -- particular substances, where the 6 need for localized regulations dealing with 7 every beach, every environmental problem in 8 different parts of the state, every unique 9 situation on a beach or a forest or a woodland. 10 We have to leave it to the experts to do this. 11 Now, that doesn't mean we give 12 up -- the legislative body gives up its 13 sovereign power to intervene to reverse 14 regulations which have caused problems or which 15 seem not to be consistent with the public policy 16 elucidated in the legislation, but this bill 17 would say it's just an outcry. Some people 18 don't like some of the regulations. 19 Do they get to be cumbersome? 20 They're as cumbersome, Mr. President, as would 21 be a bill -- a bill dealing with all these 22 problems in very specific ways would, I dare 23 say, be a couple feet thick -- would prove just 4929 1 as cumbersome for people who have to work in the 2 areas to deal with as lengthy regulations may 3 be, and I think the -- the whole concept of 4 public administration requires that the 5 executive be delegated this quasi-regulatory, 6 quasi-legislative power to deal with specific 7 problems that come up. Else this Legislature, 8 if we were going to do the job across the board, 9 not just in the area of the environment, would 10 have to sit 12 hours a day, 300 days a year to 11 do an adequate job of addressing every problem. 12 My colleagues, do we really, 13 really want to have to have a bill every time 14 there's a particular problem, every time there's 15 a need for a specific regulation with respect to 16 a pond or a lake or a substance being used that 17 affects the environment? Of course, we don't. 18 This is just simple naysaying. It's turning a 19 blind eye to the last hundred years of devel 20 opment of modern government administration. 21 That's not to say there aren't 22 problems. That's not to say there aren't 23 bureaucracies that not only are fun to take 4930 1 pokes at, but that perhaps need to be brought 2 back to the line from time to time. But 3 remember, courts exist to do that. This 4 Legislature is the ultimate resort. To just 5 wipe out the ability of a department to make 6 regulations based on a legislative grant of 7 authority is simply not a reasonable way to deal 8 with whatever problems have arisen pursuant to 9 these regulations. 10 So I would urge a no vote. This 11 is -- we can't govern our state; we can't 12 protect our environment by harkening back to 13 18th Century governmental systems that simply 14 can't work in the modern day. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Dollinger. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Will the 18 sponsor yield for a question, Mr. President? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Johnson, do you yield? 21 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 yields. 4931 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I do 2 know that you held a series of hearings, and I 3 think the Environmental Conservation Committee 4 did some real solid work in gathering informa 5 tion about the tendency to over-regulate in the 6 environmental context as well as others. But 7 could you just point out to me -- I have a copy 8 of the section of the law that you would like to 9 amend, Article 3 -- Section 3-0301, which is the 10 general function powers and duties of the 11 commissioner. Can you tell me which of these 12 powers the commissioner or his regulations have 13 exceeded? Where specifically has the 14 commissioner gone -- can you give me one 15 example, two examples of where it was doing 16 something that it wasn't specifically authorized 17 to do by law because these are very, very broad 18 powers: Coordinate, develop policies relating 19 to the environment of the state and the regions 20 thereof, it's extremely broad power, and I would 21 point out to you that these powers were given in 22 1974, I assume, by a majority of this body. I 23 assume that the members who were here in 1974 4932 1 all voted in favor of these very broad powers. 2 So could you just -- is it 3 possible you can specify which one of these 4 powers are too broad, which is exceeded? 5 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, you 6 know, we passed a lot of bills in this house in 7 recent years to protect the air, protect the 8 water, protect the fisheries, fresh water 9 wetlands, marine wetlands, we've done any number 10 of laws here, and including pollution prevention 11 laws, I can't tell you how many, recycling 12 laws. Since you've been here you've helped to 13 vote on a lot of those laws. 14 We've given a specific grant of 15 authority in every case for the regulations 16 which flow from those laws. Now, if there's 17 something among these general powers and duties 18 of the department which would permit, for 19 example, a multi-media regulation procedure 20 which has now come forth from the department 21 essentially demanding that every business do an 22 audit at their place every three months, keep 23 records, submit it, we didn't give them the 4933 1 authority to do it, but they say under this they 2 could do anything they really please. They can 3 make any regulation they choose, but they come 4 to us for grant of authority in specific cases 5 because they know that's the best way to do it, 6 with the support of the people and the people's 7 representatives for the funds to do those 8 programs, but when they don't get it or they 9 can't get it from the Legislature they just go 10 off on their own and make these regulations. 11 This multi-media regulation is the one recently 12 enacted by or recently put in place by the 13 department without authority, which again is 14 harassing businesses, and I might tell you that 15 some of the comments we got, and here's one 16 comment supporting this legislation: New York 17 regulatory policies are among the most rigid in 18 the nation. Ridiculous environmental rules! A 19 recent survey taken of small businesses shows 20 that a hundred percent believe New York State is 21 hostile to business, and many cite excessive 22 regulation, overzealous regulators for these. 23 So what we're saying here is, if 4934 1 you got a specific grant of authority in a 2 specific field signed by the Governor, all the 3 i's dotted and the t's crossed, you can make the 4 regulation, but you can't use a general grant of 5 authority to establish an agency to make 6 regulations when you can not get the Legislature 7 to do it for you. That's 3-0301, and the same 8 thing with 19-0301. 9 We were having a very interesting 10 discussion on air quality, and you know the 11 California car and the LEV and the ZEV and all 12 the things the Governor did here trying to make 13 it more difficult and more expensive in this 14 state without any benefit to the air quality, 15 and I say that, I have said it before, and this 16 house passed a New York State clean air bill by 17 a two-to-one margin; it had almost two-to-one 18 sponsors in the other house. It should have 19 been considered. The department refused to 20 consider it, refused to discuss it, refused to 21 negotiate another bill, and they said, Well, 22 under 19-0301 we realize we don't want air 23 pollution; it's a general grant of authority for 4935 1 air quality regulation; therefore, we can do it, 2 we don't have to ask the Legislature, and they 3 did it, to the detriment of our economy and not 4 to the betterment of our environment, I would 5 say, so these are the reasons we can't let them 6 use a general grant of authority that they can't 7 get specific grants of authority through this 8 government which is established to make the laws 9 in this state in behalf of the people they 10 represent. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 12 through you, Mr. President, if the Senator will 13 continue to yield. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Dollinger -- Senator Johnson, you continue to 16 yield? 17 SENATOR JOHNSON: Sure. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 yields. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one 21 other question. Section 3-0301, the first power 22 that's given to the commissioner is to develop, 23 coordinate policies and programs related to the 4936 1 state and the environment of the regions 2 thereof. 3 Your legislation is tantamount to 4 repealing that, is it not? 5 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, I didn't 6 understand your question. What did you say the 7 power is? 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The first 9 power in Section 1, subdivision (a), small "a", 10 right there on the page -- I think you've got it 11 right there; it's page 22 of the Environmental 12 Conservation Law. Doesn't your legislation 13 repeal that broad grant of authority to the 14 commissioner? 15 SENATOR JOHNSON: If you're 16 asking me if I'm opposed to them planning and 17 coordinating or whatever, I'm not. I'm against 18 them imposing things on people with -- with no 19 authority to do so. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But here's my 21 question. 22 SENATOR JOHNSON: Without any 23 recompense for the people that have to do all 4937 1 the work that they want done. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right, but 3 your bill says that you can't impose a 4 regulation unless it's not otherwise directed by 5 law. 6 SENATOR JOHNSON: That's right. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Under that 8 portion of the statute, aren't we directing that 9 they do all those things? 10 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Daly, why do you rise? 13 SENATOR DALY: Will Senator 14 Dollinger yield? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Johnson, do you yield to Senator Daly? 17 SENATOR JOHNSON: I will. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Daly. 20 SENATOR DALY: Do you see that in 21 that section of law, it says plan and develop, 22 it does not say set policy, and that's the 23 point. The point we're making is the recent 4938 1 administration of DEC has taken unto itself to 2 write the said policy in the state. We don't 3 think they have that right. This does not give 4 them the power to set policy. 5 What Senator Johnson's bill deals 6 with is the setting of policy, not the coordin 7 ating, not the planning, not the developing, but 8 the setting of policy. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 10 President, if Senator Daly will yield to a 11 question in response? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Daly, do you yield to a question from Senator 14 Dollinger. 15 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Daly yields, Senator Dollinger. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Since I've 19 gotten this copy of the bill, I've seen the text 20 of the current law, but in section (d) it says 21 it can promote, coordinate management of water, 22 land, fish, wildlife for their protection - 23 SENATOR DALY: Yes, and - 4939 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And then at 2 the tail end, it says in connection with any 3 license, permit, order, certification or any 4 other similar action or promulgating any 5 other - 6 SENATOR DALY: You leave out the 7 middle where it says consistent with the 8 environmental policy - 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The 10 environmental policy of the state and taking 11 into consideration the cumulative impact of the 12 policy in effecting any determination -- any 13 determination in connection with any licenses. 14 The point I'm making, Senator, 15 isn't that a very broad grant of authority in 16 that section, and doesn't this -- aren't those 17 regulations at least according to DEC consistent 18 with law? 19 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, in 20 answer to Senator Dollinger, I'll go back and 21 read the middle part of section (b) whether it 22 says consistent with the environmental policy of 23 the state. This -- the Legislature had the 4940 1 power to set policy by Constitution. The DEC 2 does not. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I agree with 4 you. 5 SENATOR DALY: Our point is this, 6 Senator, that DEC has been setting policy. I'll 7 point to Part 378, Part 325, the California Air 8 Emission Act and a few others in a minute, where 9 they have literally taken away from the 10 Legislature the right to set policy for the 11 state. We have take very strong exception to 12 this, and this bill simply says, Uh-uh. 13 While I'm up here, I might as 14 well go on if you don't mind. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I don't, 16 Senator. Go ahead. 17 SENATOR DALY: Let's go back to 18 Part 378 which was recently promulgated by DEC. 19 Where did they get the power to promulgate 378? 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 21 President, if I could just ask a question. I'm 22 not familiar with Part 378, sir. 23 SENATOR DALY: Well, let me just 4941 1 say that's the reduction of hazardous waste. It 2 was a bill we passed in both houses, signed into 3 law in 1990, and the intent of this bill, the 4 intent of this bill was to set a policy that 5 companies in this state would plan the reduction 6 of the hazardous wastes they generate. That was 7 it. 8 The companies had to submit to 9 DEC a plan of how they're going to reduce that 10 hazardous waste that they generate. Lo and 11 behold, DEC got a hold of the -- the bill, the 12 law, when it came down from the Governor, 13 developed rules and regulations that went far 14 beyond hazardous waste generation. It went 15 multi-media. It went into air emissions; it 16 went into water emissions. 17 It was a -- just some violation 18 of the very intent of the bill, and I know, 19 Senator, because I carried the bill, and I 20 didn't pass that bill here in this house nor did 21 my staff draft that bill to allow DEC to go 22 crazy and take that bill -- take that bill that 23 we passed, and it was signed into law and use it 4942 1 as a slingshot to jump into every other area of 2 hazardous waste in this state. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 4 President, will Senator Daly yield to a 5 question? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Daly, do you yield to Senator Dollinger? 8 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Daly yields. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I 12 understand your frustration at passing a bill 13 and then finding that the bureaucrats changed 14 the intent of that bill. 15 SENATOR DALY: This is as a 16 result of that frustration. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Correct, but 18 don't we have the ability in that specific in 19 stance to rein in DEC by changing the text of 20 your very own statute. Couldn't we do that 21 collectively? 22 SENATOR DALY: Certainly we could 23 do that but, very frankly, Mr. President, what 4943 1 we're trying to do with this bill is not make 2 that necessary. I take exception to the fact 3 that the head -- the present commissioner of DEC 4 thinks he has the right to set policy in this 5 state, this marvelous feeling. 6 What we're trying to do is a 7 matter of principle, and this particular legis 8 lation that we're dealing with right now tells 9 the commissioner, You do not have the right to 10 set policy. The Legislature sets the policy, 11 and you implement it. That's the purpose of the 12 bill. 13 I could go, as I said -- let me 14 read some more of the other actions they took if 15 I can find it, and I'm sure I can. Let me tell 16 you some of the other regulations they promul 17 gated that, in our opinion, really violated the 18 intent of the legislation they used to 19 promulgate the rules. 20 I said Part 378 just talked about 21 that multi-media; Part 357, Part 325, pesticide 22 notification regulations, the court threw it 23 out. Court said you went way out. Court said, 4944 1 You set policy, and the court said, You can't do 2 that, and that was thrown out. 3 The California low emission 4 vehicle regulations, and the proposed fresh 5 water wetlands regulations several years ago 6 that drove everybody crazy, they backed off. 7 Mr. President, the intent of this 8 legislation is to stop this, to stop it. DEC 9 does not have the right to set policy. Only the 10 Legislature has the right to set policy, and 11 that's all Senator Johnson is trying to do. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And Mr. 13 President, on the bill. 14 I agree with - 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Dollinger on the bill. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I agree with 18 Senator Daly that the repository for the power 19 to set policy ought to be in this Legislature. 20 I'd simply point out that we gave part of that 21 power away, in my opinion, in Section 1 (a) of 22 the statute in which we said - 23 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 4945 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- you said 2 that - 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Daly, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR DALY: Because I want to 6 point out we're trying to change it. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, I'm 8 simply - 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Dollinger, on the bill. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What I'm 12 simply trying to point out as part of this 13 debate is that I don't think this bill does 14 that, because I don't think, unless you repeal 15 the paragraph, Section 1, which says it shall be 16 the responsibility of the department, in 17 accordance with existing provisions and 18 limitations as may elsewhere be set forth in 19 law, that is, we have the ability to set the 20 policy. 21 We constructed the outer 22 perimeter of DEC's authority. I agree with 23 Senator Daly that we should. I believe we have 4946 1 in specific instances, and I believe we should 2 continue to do so, but we did set or outline the 3 perimeter in the following way: 4 It shall be the responsibility of 5 this department, in accordance with existing 6 provisions and limitations as they may elsewhere 7 be set forth in law, by and through the commis 8 sioner, to carry out the environmental policy of 9 this state set by us, set forth in Section 10 1-0101, which is the section that deals 11 specifically and announces the legislative 12 intent to regulate the environment for the 13 benefit of the public, and then this paragraph 14 says, In doing so, the commissioner shall have 15 the power to coordinate and develop policies, 16 planning, programs related to the environment of 17 the state and regions thereof. 18 I suggest and I submit, Senator 19 Johnson and Senator Daly, that what this bill 20 does, this bill says nothing in this section 21 shall be deemed sufficient as the sole basis for 22 the promulgation of any rule or regulation not 23 otherwise directed by law. 4947 1 They are directed by law to 2 coordinate and develop policies and if the 3 purpose of this legislation is to overturn that 4 branch -- that broad grant of authority, it's 5 not going to be accomplished because unless you 6 repeal section (a) and change the text of that 7 statute, you're still going to have a broad 8 grant of authority to the department. You're 9 not going to solve the problem. 10 I understand the intent with 11 which this moves forward, but this just doesn't 12 do the job that you want it to do. There's 13 another way to do it, be right up front. Do it, 14 repeal Section 1, revoke the grant of authority 15 and then you can put DEC in the box in which you 16 want to try to put them in. This doesn't put 17 them into this box. In my opinion, it won't 18 accomplish anything. It will simply generate a 19 ton of litigation over what it means, how it 20 should be construed. 21 I'd simply point out that we 22 already have, under current law, a provision 23 that prevents DEC from exceeding its authority. 4948 1 It's challenged on a case-by-case basis. 2 Unfortunately, the reason why the Conference of 3 Mayors and Municipal Officials writes a memo in 4 opposition is because they say it's exceeded its 5 mandate by producing -- promulgating numerous 6 regulations which are contrary to legislative 7 intent. 8 The reason why they say that is 9 because every time they go to court, the DEC 10 stands up and says, No, we're not violating 11 legislative intent because the Legislature in 12 its broad grant of powers said we develop and 13 coordinate policies to protect the environment. 14 It's such a broad grant given by this 15 Legislature in 1947, the courts have said, Do 16 whatever you want, DEC; the Legislature gave you 17 the power to do whatever you want. 18 I just think that this 19 legislation, while well-intentioned, won't 20 accomplish the goal that its sponsor has 21 articulated. If we want to put DEC in a box, 22 let's do it. Repeal those sections; take away 23 the broad grant of authority explicitly. Let's 4949 1 do it right if we're going to get this done. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 3 recognizes Senator Galiber. 4 SENATOR GALIBER: Thank you, Mr. 5 President. 6 I had not intended to speak on 7 this, but I think that there's a need to explain 8 some of my negative votes, and they were 9 negative votes notwithstanding the fact that we 10 are heading in the same direction and we want to 11 accomplish the same thing. Those of you, some 12 have to go to your history books because you 13 weren't here then, but I was, when EnCon as it 14 was known before was a dumping ground; when we 15 couldn't find any place for anyone politically 16 we put them in EnCon. And then we changed the 17 initials and they there started our problem. 18 And under the broad powers what we did, Senator, 19 was to give to a person, I think the name 20 Diamond was the man, Diamond wrote the rules and 21 regulations based on the broad power that we 22 gave him and, as a result, we have cultured, if 23 you will, a sense of arrogance, a total 4950 1 disregard for the legislative branch of 2 government, and we have within our collective 3 power the opportunity to vitiate that arrogance 4 that I made reference to before. 5 Now, I serve on your committee 6 also with a sense of pride and dignity. I have 7 been trying very -- very, I think it was about 8 last year, about a year ago, asked that we have 9 a cumulative impact statement on the environ 10 ment, something we could have done collectively, 11 and what happened was that the state and 12 national level, they delegated that 13 responsibility down to the state and the state 14 gave it to local government. 15 We have entities out there that 16 have the authority to pass on anything they wish 17 to pass on. We have an opportunity here to put 18 a screeching halt to it. Let's not say we're 19 going to show you. Let's prove it to them. 20 Let's take their power, let's pass legislation, 21 and we would have no problem whatsoever with DEC 22 in the areas of concern. 23 We have a permit process. You 4951 1 heard Senator Mendez mention about the 2 environmental racism in hiring of people. 3 That's only a by-product of the arrogance that 4 they have in that agency. 5 We asked them down in Bronx 6 County in a radius of about five miles, 7 similarly to prevent what you brought to our 8 attention with Love Canal, many, many years 9 ago. We're saying, if you want to put something 10 in that's for a community, you should have a 11 cumulative impact statement. 12 What will this additional 13 licensing process do to this community? They 14 say we don't have to do that. Local government 15 can give their approval. State government can 16 give their approval and the fed's who sit back 17 and say, "I gave it off to the state," and some 18 of us say they should never have delegated that 19 responsibility over to the state, and the state 20 should not have given concurrent jurisdiction to 21 local government. 22 So what do we have? We have a 23 situation where we are back with a piece of 4952 1 legislation and say, We're going to spank you on 2 your wrist and we're going to say to it that if 3 you don't fulfill the application then we're 4 going to say once is enough. We have some 5 objections afterward, you're going to have to 6 comply with them. 7 Let me give you another approach 8 to that. We want an environmental impact 9 statement down in the South Bronx. They did not 10 notify the public of hearings. They left out 11 some information. We asked them to correct it. 12 Under the legislation which I would have liked 13 to have voted yes for, I voted no, because in 14 that instance the community is out of the ball 15 park. You have added on to the arrogance, if 16 you will. You have added on to this attitude 17 that the commissioner has, not personally, but 18 we built this monster, we created this ogre by 19 inactivity as far as this legislative body is 20 concerned. 21 Why in God's name can't we do it 22 simply by saying we pass a piece of legislation 23 that takes away your broad powers. You no 4953 1 longer have those powers. We are going to 2 designate what you can do and, when you need 3 something else, you have to come back to us so 4 that there won't be any ambiguity at all, none 5 whatsoever, in those crazy rules and regulations 6 that Diamond promulgated many, many years ago. 7 It's a simple process. We have a 8 confused administration as far as DEC and the 9 environment is concerned. Washington is out of 10 the ball park. The state is out of the -- in 11 the ball park. They point to local government 12 when they need to. They use it as a sword or a 13 shield. Either they hide behind the fed's or 14 they cut you up with regulations from the fed's 15 or from local government. 16 So what Senator Dollinger is 17 saying, and many of us on this side, some who 18 voted, Senator, against your legislation today, 19 is a very easy way to do it, very easy way to do 20 it. We have -- this is an issue that has no 21 partisan ramifications. DEC, we created this 22 horrible, horrible, horrible monster and we're 23 living with it, whether you're upstate, 4954 1 downstate or wherever you are. 2 Why don't we stop saying, We're 3 going to spank you on the wrist and say, we are 4 going to take your powers away from you because 5 you have misused -- you have misused what the 6 legislative intent really was. We trusted you, 7 we trusted you as an agency with the will and 8 concern of the people out there. We gave you 9 broad powers. You have abused those powers. 10 And in doing so, we're now going to take them 11 away from you. 12 It calls for a simple piece of 13 legislation, Senator, simple piece of 14 legislation, because those middle management 15 people, with especially -- especially we have a 16 wonderful opportunity. We have a new 17 commissioner coming in. You're going to hold 18 some hearings, to your credit, and I don't know 19 whether that new commissioner has been 20 contaminated to the point where, what can we do 21 about it? 22 What we can do about it is say, 23 Commissioner, we know there are some middle 4955 1 management people in all state and local 2 government agencies. They are contaminated, 3 they outlive commissioners. They outlive 4 legislators. They outlive governors. They are 5 there; they're part of the structure and one way 6 that we can change attitudes is either get rid 7 of them or change the law, and we have a golden 8 opportunity to change the law. 9 Let's take the broad powers 10 away. 11 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 12 SENATOR GALIBER: Because you 13 want, Senator, you want what I want. You want 14 what we all want. Why are we piddling with this 15 notion about the broad powers? And you gave 16 those to people with a stout heart, good 17 intentions, good will people. DEC doesn't have 18 any of those characteristics. 19 Why are we playing with them? Why 20 don't we just repeal -- why don't we take away 21 those broad powers and give them designated 22 powers as they or we see fit, not they see fit, 23 we do, because we are the government force, the 4956 1 legislative branch of government. 2 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Daly, I'm so overwhelmed by Senator Galiber's 5 presentation, could we just pause for a minute 6 for me to re-collect my thoughts. 7 SENATOR DALY: I would like to 8 ask him to yield to a question. 9 SENATOR GALIBER: I would. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Just 11 pause just a minute. 12 Senator Daly, we're now prepared 13 to take every word of your question down. If 14 you would like to ask Senator Galiber to yield? 15 Senator Galiber, do you yield? 16 SENATOR GALIBER: What if I don't 17 yield, Mr. President? 18 SENATOR DALY: Well, I'll ask 19 Senator Dollinger to yield. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Dollinger, will you yield to Senator Daly? 22 SENATOR DALY: They both can 23 answer this question, Mr. President. I'm sure 4957 1 you can work this out, but I gather from 2 listening to Senator Dollinger and Senator 3 Galiber, they don't think we've gone far 4 enough. I'm delighted to hear that they feel 5 the intent of this bill -- its good intent, and 6 it's something that we should put in law. 7 Now, if they're saying we haven't 8 gone far enough and that they want to submit 9 legislation which will repeal the power section, 10 I will be delighted to work with them so that - 11 and I want to know if I interpret it properly 12 what they said. 13 Are they willing to accept the 14 intent -- are they willing to go further and 15 repeal the power section or rewrite the entire 16 power section? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Galiber to respond? 19 SENATOR GALIBER: I would like, 20 yes, if I may, Mr. President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Galiber. 23 SENATOR GALIBER: It's an 4958 1 excellent question. I thought you would never 2 ask it. 3 The only slight change I would 4 like to make is this: I'm a Democrat on this 5 side of the aisle with a couple of votes over 6 here. If you are really sincere, and I suspect 7 that the mere fact that you would ask a Democrat 8 to sponsor this bill questions seriously your 9 sincerity in terms of whether you want this 10 passed or not. 11 Now, if you want it for the 12 record, you have it as far as I'm concerned. In 13 your heart's heart, you know that I'm right and 14 Senator Johnson knows that I'm right and, more 15 important, I know that both of you are right. I 16 am merely saying, rather than nitpick, why don't 17 we rather than single out certain sections, all 18 we really have to do is take away, abolish if 19 you will, vitiate if you will, that broad power 20 that we granted to them because they don't know 21 how to use the broad power. 22 A lot of us abuse it. Sometimes 23 you on the other side, because they're broad 4959 1 powers that you abuse it, we say with tongue in 2 cheek, some days we need it on other days. This 3 is an instance where we can simply take away 4 their broad powers and then we can list you on 5 all those pieces of legislation. 6 You've been too nice to me 7 Senator, you've been too nice. Don't start 8 picking away because they don't understand 9 signals. Bite off one moment and we can pass 10 your bill and say maybe these guys down there, 11 guys and dolls, are serious. We ought to 12 straighten up our act and we're going to take 13 away some more powers, and we don't want that, 14 so we're going to straighten it out and it ain't 15 going to happen with them. It ain't going to 16 happen by this bill. 17 Let's go about the business the 18 right way. Please put the bill in. I don't 19 even have a bill to star this year. I wish I 20 had one to star. I wish I had one to star, but 21 you put one in, I certainly can muster up some 22 support on this side of the aisle. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4960 1 will read the last section. 2 Senator Dollinger. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 4 President, I'll be extremely brief. 5 I just want to follow up the 6 answer that Senator Daly or Senator Galiber gave 7 to Senator Daly and highlight the issue of 8 institutional arrogance which I think is the 9 point of my colleague's comments. 10 Every year since 1974 when we 11 passed this bill, we have amended this section 12 of the law and every time we've done it we've 13 given more power to the Department of 14 Environmental Conservation. No wonder the 15 bureaucrats in the Department of Environmental 16 Conservation are used to exercising extremely 17 broad and unchecked powers and they look to the 18 Legislature for the last 18 years, and I think 19 it's every year since 1974 we've amended this 20 statute to just increase the scope of their 21 power. 22 The arrogance which may have 23 started off in a small little embryo is now a 4961 1 full grown walking around living thing and if 2 we're going to get it back, if we're going to 3 get this agency under control, if we're going to 4 avoid the problems that Senator Johnson and 5 Senator Daly detailed in the regulators over 6 stepping their legislative permission, it seems 7 to me we've got to do a lot more than simply 8 pass this bill which I think will be easily 9 misconstrued and not accomplish the goal. 10 But whatever beast we put into 11 existence in 1974 we have been feeding it since 12 then and now it has grown to Gargantuan size so 13 that simply trying to put the beast back in the 14 cage through this legislation I don't think will 15 accomplish the goal. We've got more work to 16 do. It's a good effort. I just don't think it 17 does the job. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Now the 19 Secretary will read the last section. 20 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Johnson to close debate. 23 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, I'd like 4962 1 to conclude by saying that we're not opposed to 2 the department making regulations in accordance 3 with specific grants of authority. We're saying 4 this general power functions and duties of the 5 department should not be the basis of any 6 regulation. Simple as that. 7 As far as the comments about we 8 pass laws every year, yes, we pass laws about 9 fish, we pass laws about solid waste recycling, 10 we have no problem with regulations being 11 drafted under that, but under this general grant 12 of authority should not be the basis of any 13 regulations, so we are essentially vitiating the 14 general power by saying they can not use it 15 without a further grant of authority. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 17 will read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 4963 1 the results. 2 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 3 the negative on Calendar Number 723 are Senators 4 Babbush, Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Galiber, 5 Gold, Goodman, Jones, Kruger, Leichter, Levy, 6 Markowitz, Ohrenstein, Onorato, Oppenheimer, 7 Smith and Stachowski. Ayes 41, nays 17. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Leichter. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: May I have 14 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative 15 on Calendar 720? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 17 objection, Senator Leichter will be recorded in 18 the negative on Calendar Number 720. 19 Secretary will continue to read 20 the controversial calendar. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 943, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 7784, 23 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation 4964 1 Law. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 11 is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 946, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 7787, 14 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation 15 Law and the State Finance Law. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Daly, Senator Leichter has asked for an 19 explanation. 20 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 21 Mr. President, by title, we call 22 this bill the Voluntary Remediation Act - 23 hopefully it will be an act -- and the purpose 4965 1 have this legislation, Mr. President, is to 2 speed up the clean-up of hazardous, contaminated 3 sites in this state. 4 Basically, what this legislation 5 does, it allows a company or an individual to 6 approach the Department of Environmental 7 Conservation and say, "I think I have a 8 contamination problem here, I want to clean it 9 up." They work with DEC, and DEC reviews the 10 remediation process, the remediation work that's 11 being done, then approves it. After that, when 12 it's completed, the party gets a notice of 13 completion and also a guarantee, a covenant, not 14 to sue. 15 As we know, Mr. President, we 16 have many, many sites in this state that could 17 well be hazardous, well over 700, and unfortun 18 ately the process is too slow. We still have, 19 and we've been doing this now for 15 years, Mr. 20 President, and we still have as many sites today 21 on the list as we had 15 years ago. As one 22 comes off, another goes on. 23 What has happened, Mr. President, 4966 1 is that companies are -- do not want at times to 2 bring to the attention of the DEC that they 3 might have a problem because then they are 4 eligible for the penalties that DEC has the 5 right to place on them. 6 As we also know, Mr. President, 7 the Superfund monies could be running out by the 8 end of the decade. We want to get more and more 9 people from the private sector in to work with 10 us in the cleaning up of the sites, their sites, 11 and I think this is good legislation. 12 One of the things I want to point 13 out, particularly is this legislation, under the 14 lender liability bill which this house had the 15 wisdom to pass just earlier today is particular 16 ly -- I should say particularly concerns what is 17 happening in our cities and what's happening in 18 our inner cities where we have a property being 19 deserted, so many of which are contaminated 20 which, because of the existing laws, which again 21 hopefully we're going to change it because we 22 passed earlier today the lender liability bill 23 which would hold a bank responsible and, 4967 1 therefore, banks are not lending money for those 2 properties in the inner city, companies want to 3 go in and use those properties, use that 4 property. They can work out a voluntary 5 remediation program with DEC. They can work out 6 a loan -- can't function without money. You 7 have to have someone who is willing to invest 8 money in that property and, if we continue to 9 hold banks liable, then banks will not invest. 10 What I'm saying, my colleagues, 11 is that this bill and the lender liability bill 12 is particularly aimed -- will be a particular 13 help, I should say, to our inner cities in 14 developing properties within the inner cities 15 and otherwise would be deserted and companies 16 will go out to virgin land where there is no 17 chance of contamination and that's where we need 18 businesses. That's where we need jobs, and I 19 think both of these bills will help us in 20 addition to the primary thrust of the 21 legislation helping to clean up contaminated or 22 hazardous sites. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 4968 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Leichter. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator 4 Daly would be so good as to yield. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Daly, do you yield? 7 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Daly yields. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, 11 before getting into the substance of the bill, I 12 just want to be sure that I heard or understood 13 correctly something I heard in your peroration. 14 Did you say this bill will create jobs? 15 SENATOR DALY: I said this bill 16 will help create jobs. Yes, Mr. President, I 17 said it. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Leichter. 20 SENATOR DALY: Particularly, Mr. 21 President, in places where we need them the 22 most, the inner cities. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm sorry, 4969 1 Senator. Maybe I'm missing something. 2 SENATOR DALY: The inner cities. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: I know it's 4 the mantra to get up on any sort of bill and 5 say, This will create jobs, but how will this 6 create jobs and particularly in the inner 7 cities? 8 SENATOR DALY: What's happening 9 now, Mr. President, is properties are being 10 deserted in the inner -- properties are being 11 deserted in the inner cities. No developer, no 12 development wants to go in. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Are we on Bill 14 946, Senator? 15 SENATOR DALY: We are on 946, 16 Senator, and I think if you'll accept the points 17 that I'm trying to make in answer to your 18 question, I'm saying the voluntary remediation 19 bill will help encourage entrepreneurs, 20 companies, to go in to inner city properties and 21 clean them up so they can be used for the 22 development of jobs. 23 At the present time, because of 4970 1 the -- the existing law and DEC's power over 2 that company, companies will not do that. They 3 will not go in and, if they're going to start a 4 company or expand a company, they're not going 5 to go into the inner city, pick up land that 6 could be or will be contaminated. They're going 7 to go out to the rural areas where there is 8 virgin land and they don't have to worry. 9 Now, if they can go in, they want 10 this property. If they can make an arrangement 11 with the Department of Environmental 12 Conservation for a voluntary remediation of that 13 property, as this bill allows, which you can't 14 do right now, then that property can be cleaned 15 up by the people who want to start that 16 business, or expand it, and thus create jobs. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you. 18 Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Leichter. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: I did want 22 Senator Daly to yield, but before I deal with 23 the substantive merits of the bill, I may end up 4971 1 supporting the bill. 2 I think it has some good ideas in 3 it, Senator, but I would not, frankly, sell this 4 bill on the basis that this is going to really 5 create jobs in the inner cities. I mean I just 6 don't think that's -- that's a realistic sales 7 point for this bill. As I said, it almost seems 8 like any bill we have, you get up and say, it 9 will create jobs. You sit down because you - 10 you've said everything about the bill that is 11 needed to convince your colleagues to vote for 12 it. 13 I think if all the bills that you 14 guys are claiming are going to create jobs 15 actually did what you said, there wouldn't be a 16 single unemployed person in New York and most 17 people would have to work twice. 18 Senator, I don't think the 19 difficulty of the problem that we have in the 20 inner city relates to the difficulty of cleaning 21 up contaminated sites. Obviously there are a 22 lot of problems, difficulties, that we have 23 relating to creating of a better economic 4972 1 climate in the inner city, but I -- I don't 2 think that this bill has any bearing on that 3 whatsoever, but having said that, I think there 4 may be a definite value, Senator, for having 5 what I would call sort of a fast track way of 6 cleaning up sites that maybe don't have too much 7 of a contamination problem that maybe it makes 8 sense to do it in what you say voluntary, sort 9 of a quasi-voluntary way because you've got to 10 -- you've got to get the permission of the 11 department before you can do that, and it's in 12 relation to that, Senator, that I have a 13 question that I wanted to ask you if you would 14 be good enough to yield. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Daly, do you yield? 17 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Daly yields. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: The department 21 has stated that it strongly opposes this, and 22 again it's that one liner, and I think it's 23 appalling, it's outrageous that a state 4973 1 department would not have the decency and show 2 enough respect for the Legislature to try to 3 explain what its position is. Unfortunately, we 4 have to deal with this, but one of our staff 5 people checked with the department. 6 One point they made which may 7 have some merit and that's what my question 8 relates to, is that you require the department 9 within 30 days after an application is made for 10 voluntary remediation to respond, and I 11 understand the department felt that that was an 12 unreasonable period of time. I don't want to 13 give them a long period of time. I understand 14 your -- your purpose is let's get the thing done 15 quickly, but would you comment on that? Is 30 16 days possibly unreasonable? 17 SENATOR DALY: No, it isn't 18 because really, 30 days is just to determine the 19 eligibility. That's all the 30-day period is 20 used for. The means to clean up the site, that 21 comes later, but also, Senator, I might add that 22 DEC never spoke to me about it, never sent me a 23 memo on the bill. I didn't know they had that 4974 1 objection, but I really feel that, if that's 2 their only objection, the fact that -- that they 3 have -- they have to do within -- within 30 4 days, they have to do that, I -- hunh! I don't 5 think it's much of an objection, Senator. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, let 7 me ask you if you would be kind enough to 8 continue to yield. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Daly, you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR DALY: Certainly. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Daly yields. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: You have a 15 provision in here which says an affected person 16 who implements a voluntary remedial program 17 pursuant to this title shall not be held liable 18 for claims concerning matters addressed in such 19 remedial program or certificate of completion. 20 Does that mean that, if the 21 remediation is done in a negligent or careless 22 manner, that the affected person cannot be held 23 responsible? 4975 1 SENATOR DALY: Not if it's done 2 in a negligent manner, no, Senator. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well - 4 SENATOR DALY: Counsel just said, 5 you know, the program is approved by DEC before 6 they do it. DEC approves the program, the 7 remediation program. So nothing goes on, 8 nothing is done to that site unless DEC signs 9 off. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: All right. If 11 he doesn't - 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Daly, you continue to yield? 14 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Daly continues to yield. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. 19 If the person does it in 20 accordance with the remediation plan, what 21 you're saying is that, at that point, he can not 22 be held liable. 23 SENATOR DALY: That's right. 4976 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: So that the 2 department, in effect, is almost a guarantor, 3 not in the sense that you could sue the 4 department although maybe you could. 5 SENATOR DALY: Well - 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: I just wonder, 7 Senator, whether that's really giving too great 8 an exemption to -- to an affected person. 9 SENATOR DALY: Well, that's the 10 carrot, Senator; that's exactly it. That's the 11 carrot that we have in this legislation to 12 encourage companies to come forward and say, 13 "Listen, I have a contamination problem, I have 14 a hazardous waste problem, I want to clean it up 15 now. You tell me how to do it, you approve the 16 plan, I'll do it because I want to come back in 17 here and keep this plant moving, I mean open. I 18 want to put some new jobs in here," getting back 19 to the jobs, Senator. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Senator. 21 SENATOR DALY: And I'm not going 22 to do it, let's face it, if I'm not going to get 23 protection from DEC then I'm not going to do 4977 1 it. I'm not going to put my money into that. 2 You have to have some final point when a person 3 feels I've done what I had to do and now I'm 4 safe. The reality of that Damocles sword 5 hanging over my head constantly is going to make 6 me hesitate and, very frankly, is going to make 7 me say, No, I'm not going to do it here; I'm 8 going to move out of the city and out to the 9 country or wherever. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, then 11 let me, if I may, go back to the question of the 12 timing by which DEC has to act. You say the 30 13 days are only to determine the eligibility. 14 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: How much time 16 will they have to really consider the voluntary 17 remediation program so that the department can 18 indeed be assured that that remediation program 19 will deal effectively with the problem? 20 SENATOR DALY: What you would do, 21 Senator, in that case there would be an 22 agreement signed between DEC and the company or 23 individual cleaning up the site. That's an 4978 1 individual contract that would be signed by 2 DEC. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. And what 4 you're saying, there's no time. 5 SENATOR DALY: The legislation 6 does not have any time in it. We think that's 7 wise. We think that's wise. We think DEC and 8 the company or the individual should sit down 9 and work out a time frame. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Mr. 11 President. 12 SENATOR DALY: Just not to let it 13 drag. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: I thank the 15 good Senator. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Leichter, on the bill. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. I thank 19 my good friend for his explanation. 20 I understand that this is 21 certainly an effort to try to get some of these 22 sites cleaned up in a more expeditious manner. 23 Absent really an explanation by the department 4979 1 of its opposition and no other memorandum, and 2 understanding the concerns that Senator Daly 3 has, I'm going to support the bill. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays 1, 12 Senator Galiber recorded in the negative. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 Senator Stavisky. 16 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 17 without objection, I should like to be recorded 18 in the negative on Calendar 720, Calendar 723 19 and also 563. Thank you. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 21 objection, Senator Stavisky will be recorded in 22 the negative on Calendars Number 563, 720 and 23 723. 4980 1 Senator Espada. 2 SENATOR ESPADA: Mr. President, 3 I, too, seek unanimous consent to be recorded in 4 the negative on Calendar Number 563 and 720. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 6 objection, Senator Espada will be recorded in 7 the negative on Calendar Number 563 and Calendar 8 Number 720. 9 Senator Montgomery. 10 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr. 11 President. I would like to unanimous consent to 12 be recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 13 723. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 15 objection, Senator Montgomery will be recorded 16 in the negative on Calendar Number 723. 17 Secretary will continue to call 18 the controversial calendar. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 1040, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 21 7387-A, an act to amend the State Administrative 22 Procedure Act. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 4981 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Gold. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. We're going 4 to want an explanation. We're going to want an 5 explanation, and there may be some debate on 6 this, but I have some members who have to go to 7 a function. Is it possible to open the roll 8 call and allow Senator Mendez to vote on this? 9 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 15 roll. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Negative. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Montgomery? 20 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Not me. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Mendez. 23 SENATOR MENDEZ: Negative. 4982 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Mendez, yes, no, negative? Senator Mendez in 3 the negative. 4 Secretary will withdraw the roll 5 call. Senator Gold, do you wish an explanation 6 on this bill? No? 7 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Johnson, Senator Gold is asking an explanation. 10 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 11 this -- this measure will provide that all 12 agencies secure an estimate of the accuracy of 13 their cost to agencies and to business from the 14 Department of Economic Development. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Secretary will read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on. Hold 23 on. Hold on. Hold it a minute. 4983 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Gold. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Please hold just a 4 minute. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 6 Johnson, if you would yield. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Withdraw 8 the roll call. Senator Johnson, Senator 9 Leichter is asking you to yield. Do you yield? 10 Senator Johnson, do you yield? 11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Johnson yields, Senator Leichter. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Do I 15 understand that this bill will give the 16 Department of Economic Development the power to 17 review regulatory impact statements by other 18 agencies? 19 SENATOR JOHNSON: The economic 20 impact of the regulation, yes, by other 21 agencies, yes; that's correct. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: And can the 23 department overrule the determination by another 4984 1 state agency that it wishes to proceed with a 2 regulation? 3 SENATOR JOHNSON: No, I don't 4 think it can do that, Senator. All they can say 5 is that we think this is going to cost business 6 so many dollars and that would be part of the 7 memorandum that goes with the bill. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator, 9 if - 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Johnson, do you continue to yield? 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: If you would 13 continue to yield. 14 Can I draw your attention, 15 Senator, to page 2, line 29, where it says to 16 review, comment upon, amend and approve the 17 regulatory impact statement. Doesn't that imply 18 that it also has the power, one, to disapprove, 19 certainly clearly states that it can amend the 20 regulation. 21 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Senator, 22 we're answering questions here, and, yes, that's 23 what it says, Senator, that they would have to 4985 1 approve the figures submitted by the other 2 agency, that they would be correct in that. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, then 4 it's correct to say that you're really making 5 Department of Economic Development a super 6 agency that has the right to pass on the work of 7 any other agency insofar as it involves 8 regulatory impact statements? 9 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, we're 10 not really affecting the law. We're affecting 11 the appraisal of what the economic impact of 12 that role would be upon the regulated 13 businesses. We feel in the past we haven't got 14 the full story from a lot of the agencies who 15 minimized the impact or almost said it's de 16 minimus when really it's a substantial impact on 17 the regulated members of our community. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, let 19 me ask you this question. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Johnson, do you continue to yield? 22 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4986 1 Johnson yields. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Is there 3 anything which precludes the Department of 4 Economic Development in passing on the 5 regulatory impact statement of another agency? 6 SENATOR JOHNSON: We haven't had 7 any impact, any comments from them. In very few 8 cases have we had any comments at all. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 10 wonder if you could comment on this concern of 11 mine, and that is that by requiring the 12 department to approve the regulatory impact 13 statement of every other agency, are we just 14 adding another delay? I know we've had a number 15 of concerns expressed today in the debate on the 16 bills about the lengthy regulatory process. Now 17 you're adding just another layer. 18 Doesn't that have the effect of 19 further hindering an expeditious resolution of 20 regulatory procedure? 21 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I 22 don't know what to say. I think I agree with 23 Senator Galiber in the previous discussion here 4987 1 where we ought to just go back and take some of 2 these laws completely off the books and start 3 over again but, Senator, we're not prepared to 4 do that right now, so what we're trying to do is 5 introduce some sensitivity to the impact on the 6 regulated community because, as I mentioned 7 earlier, the loss of jobs and businesses leaving 8 our state and people fleeing almost from this 9 regulatory behemoth which is overcoming all of 10 them. 11 What we want to know what this is 12 going to cost and maybe the department would, or 13 the agency that's subject here to this 14 requirement would look twice and make sure they 15 got the proper estimate before we send out the 16 new -- the new regulations, and so forth, so I 17 think that's the problem. 18 It's -- get the Administrative 19 Procedure Act to give us some straight figures 20 from a department which is concerned with the 21 state of our economy in the state of New York. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. Mr. 23 President, one more question if Senator Johnson 4988 1 would yield. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Johnson, do you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Johnson? Senator Johnson yields. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I see 8 there's no appropriation, although we're now 9 giving a much broader responsibility to the 10 Department of Economic Development. You're at 11 least -- you're conceding that there will be 12 some fiscal implications. You say, Well, it's 13 minimal, but, Senator, it bothers me and I 14 raised it today in committee. I raised it on 15 the floor yesterday with Senator Bruno. I've 16 raised it in many other instances, the -- what I 17 think is an unfortunate habit that's developing 18 particularly on the part of the majority to 19 impose mandates on state agencies and never 20 provide the financing, the funding for it. It's 21 -- it's -- it must be clear to you and certain 22 ly is to me, should be clear to everybody that, 23 if you're not going to require the department to 4989 1 review all of these regulatory impact 2 statements, you want them to make a thorough 3 review, they're going to be dealing in an area 4 where, by the way, they're not particularly 5 familiar, whether it's the economy or health or 6 other areas. Now this department has suddenly 7 become a super-department and has to make 8 determinations. They may have to make a 9 determination as to some regulation affecting 10 hospitals. This is a form of economic 11 development and the department has to now, under 12 your legislation, review the economic impact. 13 They're going to have to hire 14 people for that. They're going to have to make 15 studies. Not only will it delay it, it will 16 cost money. How are they going to do this 17 without being given some additional 18 appropriation? 19 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, Senator, 20 I don't know. I think the agency has not 21 objected to the bill. They haven't put out a 22 memo in opposition. That doesn't mean they 23 approve it, but they probably know themselves 4990 1 that we've got to get a better handle on what 2 we're doing here. 3 We're finding, even on the 4 federal level, the federal Congressmen are 5 demanding or taking a pledge that we'll put no 6 more mandates on state and local government. 7 Yet every regulation is a mandate on some 8 regulated person or some agency or something, 9 and these things go on continuously. 10 I think if this should become law 11 then I think DED would have to figure out how 12 they're going to do it, reassign personnel, some 13 things that are not necessary, maybe -- maybe an 14 agency in Malaysia to promote business in New 15 York, maybe that's not necessary. Maybe they 16 could close that office up and bring those 17 people back here and see that we stick to our 18 knitting and keep the business and jobs in the 19 state of New York by not imposing onerous 20 regulations which cost a lot of money. 21 We have an economic crisis in 22 this state. I don't need to tell you, Senator, 23 you know it. Just the other day, we celebrated 4991 1 the fact that our revenues went up 2.4 percent. 2 New Jersey's tax revenues went up 9.7 percent, 3 so we're not doing everything great. We're 4 lucky that the economy came back a little bit. 5 We've got to do a lot more things 6 to have a healthy economy in this state, and one 7 of the things we're needing to do is to know 8 what we're doing in terms of rules and 9 regulations, Senator. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 11 on the bill. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Leichter, on the bill. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 15 Johnson, I agree we have to do things, but I 16 think we have to do intelligent things. I don't 17 know whether we have to run off in every 18 direction; I don't know whether that's 19 particularly helpful, Senator. 20 Let me say I have a number of 21 problems with this bill, but let me try to deal 22 with this underlying basis, Senator. You talk 23 about the economy; Senator Daly talks about the 4992 1 job creation, and so on. We appreciate that we 2 have a problem in this state. Much of it is due 3 to national and by and large economic forces 4 over which we have extremely little control, and 5 there's very little that we can do, frankly, 6 that's going to make enormous changes in the 7 economy. I think we can affect it in the 8 margin. 9 There was an article in the paper 10 the other day, it certainly should be no 11 surprise to anybody that this great tax bill 12 that we have passed is probably going to have a 13 minimal effect in any effect on job creation. 14 So, Senator, to put forward these bills as 15 Senator Daly did, you know, this is a great job 16 creation bill humbug, or that this bill is 17 really going to avoid the expenses and the 18 burdens that are now imposed on corporations by 19 unwise regulations. 20 So putting that aside, it may 21 make sense under certain circumstances to do 22 some of the things you propose. I thought 23 Senator Daly's bill made sense just from the 4993 1 viewpoint of trying to clean up some 2 contaminated sites, but I don't think it's - 3 and if it makes sense, Senator, to do this, to 4 give that department this power to review every 5 regulatory impact statement, then you've got to 6 give them the money to do it. 7 I mean this Republican idea that 8 you can increase government functions, because 9 this is an increase of a function, that you can 10 cut taxes, and do all of this and that all of 11 this can be done without in any way affecting 12 the expenditures of government, just -- just 13 really makes no sense whatsoever. 14 You clearly can't do that. If 15 this makes sense, then, I think you ought to 16 have the fortitude, if I may put it that way, of 17 putting in an appropriation and, if anybody then 18 says, Oh, my God, you increased government 19 spending, you said, Yeah, I did it, because it 20 provides a government function which is very 21 important, that -- that it just seems to me 22 that, unless you do this, I don't know how we 23 can take any of this legislation seriously. 4994 1 But I think that even with an 2 appropriation, this bill would give me a lot of 3 problems because I submit to you that this 4 department is not in a position to understand 5 the economic impact of regulations that are made 6 by other state agencies. In some instances 7 maybe, in other instances, I think in the health 8 field, I just don't think that they could do 9 that. I think in transportation, I can see many 10 areas where the Department of Transportation has 11 a much better understanding of the economic 12 impact than the Department of Economic 13 Development. Doesn't have the people with the 14 background in these areas. They don't have the 15 knowledge and all that you're requiring in 16 imposing on that department that they study anew 17 and afresh determinations that have been made by 18 other departments. 19 I have no objection to that 20 department, if it looks at a regulation and 21 says, We think there's an error here for the 22 Department of Economic Development to contact 23 whether it's Transportation, DEC or Health or 4995 1 whoever put out this regulation, say, We have 2 some question, but they have that power now, but 3 to require that in every instance they review 4 the regulatory impact statement, that they 5 approve it, delays the procedure, makes it more 6 expensive, and will involve the department in 7 areas where it's totally untrained. 8 So far from speeding up the 9 process, making, if you will, the state more 10 business friendly, I think you're going to delay 11 the enactment of regulations that may, in fact, 12 be beneficial to business. You're going to 13 impose unnecessary work on a department that, 14 frankly, may not be qualified to do this. 15 I don't see this a help at all. 16 I think this is a -- this is a hindrance, and I 17 -- I think it's a mistake to enact this 18 legislation. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Dollinger. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 22 Mr. President. 23 I share most of the comments that 4996 1 Senator Leichter made. I haven't quite figured 2 out how I'll vote on this bill, but I guess I 3 was reminded in sitting here it ties in with the 4 point that we talked about earlier about 5 institutional arrogance, and it's unfortunate, 6 but I get this little image in my head. 7 I have a 15-year-old son, and I 8 keep thinking, Gee, you know, wasn't it nice 9 when he was a little tiny kid. But what 10 happened is I kept feeding him and feeding him 11 and he grew up and, my gosh, now he's about two 12 inches shorter than I am and about three months 13 ago, he and I had a little wrestling match in my 14 living room, watched by my other children and my 15 wife, in which, frankly, he just about beat the 16 daylights out of me. 17 In some of ways, it's similar to 18 what we go through here. We create a nice 19 little agency. We want to give them a nice 20 little thing to do, but we keep feeding them 21 responsibility. We have fed the Department of 22 Environmental Conservation, by lending them 23 broad powers every year for the last 16 years; 4997 1 just feed them more and more and suddenly when 2 we look at them they're growing outside the box. 3 They're big and strong and they can beat up 4 their old man. 5 Well, we're the old men; we're 6 the old man. If we're going to take control 7 over these agencies, we have the power. Unlike 8 myself, I'll just continue to watch my son get 9 bigger and bigger and eventually he will be able 10 to beat me up, and that will be settled. But we 11 still have the power to do it. We can do it on 12 a case-by-case basis. 13 I share a lot of Senator 14 Leichter's concerns, and I'm, frankly, not sure 15 even as I stand here how I'm going to vote, but 16 recognize that we're feeding the Department of 17 Economic Development by giving them a huge grant 18 of authority, an enormous grant of authority. 19 They can overturn, amend and, where necessary, 20 approve every single regulation enacted by every 21 single department in this state. 22 I agree with Senator Leichter, I 23 do think it's a bit hypocritical to do that and 4998 1 in your fiscal note accompanying the -- the 2 bill, you say possible savings from reduced 3 state regulatory burdens. I think the first 4 thing that Mr. Tese will do is ask us for a 5 couple hundred employees so that he'll be able 6 to do what we've told him to do, and next thing 7 you know it will not only be DEC that is outside 8 the box and taking power that we don't want, but 9 it will be DED that is doing exactly the same 10 thing. 11 I caution my colleagues before we 12 do this. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 21 the results. 22 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 23 the negative on Calendar Number 1040 are 4999 1 Senators Espada, Galiber, Gold, Leichter, 2 Mendez, Montgomery, Ohrenstein and Oppenheimer. 3 Ayes 50, nays 8. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 5 is passed. 6 Secretary will continue to call 7 the controversial calendar. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 1121, by Senator Wright, Senate Bill Number 10 6941, an act to amend the Executive Law and the 11 State Administrative Procedure Act. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 13 will read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 21 is passed. 22 SENATOR PADAVAN: Any 23 housekeeping, Mr. President? 5000 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, we 2 have some housekeeping. 3 Senator Libous. 4 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, 5 on behalf of Senator Skelos, I wish to call up 6 his bill, Senate Print Number 2272-A recalled 7 from the Assembly which is now at the desk. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 9 will read. 10 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 11 Skelos, Senate Bill Number 2272-A, an act to 12 amend the Real Property Tax Law. 13 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I 14 now move to reconsider the vote by which this 15 bill was passed. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: On the 17 motion to reconsider the vote by which the bill 18 was passed, Secretary will read the roll on 19 reconsideration. 20 (The Secretary called the roll on 21 reconsideration. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 23 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President. 5001 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Libous. 3 SENATOR LIBOUS: I now offer up 4 the following amendments. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 6 Amendments are received and adopted. 7 Senator Libous. 8 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I 9 have one more. On behalf of Senator Skelos, I 10 wish to call up his bill, Print Number 7129-A 11 recalled from the Assembly which is now at the 12 desk. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read. 15 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 16 Skelos, Senate Bill Number 7129-A, Economic 17 Development Law. 18 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I 19 now move to reconsider the vote by which this 20 bill was passed. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll on reconsideration. 23 (The Secretary called the roll on 5002 1 reconsideration. ) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 3 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I 4 now offer up the following amendments. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 6 Amendments are received and adopted. 7 Senator Wright. 8 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I 9 wish to call up my bill, Print Number 6861-A, 10 recalled from the Assembly which is now at the 11 desk. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 13 will read. 14 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 15 Wright, Senate Bill Number 6861-A, authorize the 16 city of Ogdensburg School District to finance 17 the projected accumulated deficit. 18 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I 19 now move to reconsider vote by which this bill 20 was passed. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will call the roll on reconsideration. 23 (The Secretary called the roll on 5003 1 reconsideration. ) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 3 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I 4 now offer the following amendments. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 6 Amendments are received and adopted. 7 Senator Wright. 8 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, 9 on behalf of Senator LaValle, on page number 42, 10 I offer the following amendments to Calendar 11 Number 1067, Senate Print Number 8063, and ask 12 that said bill retain its place on the Third 13 Reading Calendar. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 15 Amendments are received and adopted. Bill will 16 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 17 Senator Stafford. 18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr. 19 President. 20 I would announce that tomorrow 21 during the session, we will be announcing a 22 meeting of the Committee on Finance in Room 332, 23 time to be announced. 5004 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 2 will be a meeting of the Senate Committee on 3 Finance tomorrow during session to be called 4 from the floor, time to be announced at that 5 time. 6 Senator Goodman. 7 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President, 8 I'd like to remind members and staff that 9 tomorrow evening is our annual night at Saratoga 10 Performing Arts Center. There will be a 11 performance of Madama Butterfly given by the New 12 York City Opera. This is a gala spring event 13 which all members and staff have been invited 14 to. Those who have been invited know they 15 have. We look forward to welcoming you both for 16 dinner and for a delightful performance, and I 17 want to be certain that everybody makes it a 18 point to come and to bring some bug repellant 19 with them. 20 Thank you very much. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank you 22 for the reminder, Senator Goodman. 23 Senator Padavan, that completes 5005 1 the housekeeping. 2 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President, 3 there being no further business, I move that we 4 adjourn until tomorrow at 11:00 a.m. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6 Senate stands adjourned until tomorrow at 11:00 7 a.m. 8 (Whereupon at 6:11 p.m., the 9 Senate adjourned.) 10 11 12 13 14 15