Tuesday, June 28, 1994

5884 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 June 28, 1994 10 10:00 a.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 5885 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senate will come to order. Ask the staff to 4 find their places, members their seats. Ask the 5 guests in the gallery to rise with us and say 6 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. 7 (The assemblage repeated the 8 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. ) 9 In the absence of clergy, I'd ask 10 that we all bow our heads in a moment of 11 silence. 12 (A moment of silence was 13 observed. ) 14 Reading of the Journal. 15 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 16 Monday, June 27th. The Senate met pursuant to 17 adjournment, Senator Kuhl in the Chair upon 18 designation of the Temporary President. Prayer 19 by Reverend Monsignor George T. Deas, Our Lady 20 of the Blessed Sacrament Church of New York. 21 The Journal of Sunday, June 26th, was read and 22 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing 5886 1 no objection, the Journal stands approved as 2 read. 3 Presentation of petitions. 4 Messages from the Assembly. 5 Messages from the Governor. 6 Reports of standing committees. 7 Reports of select committees. 8 Communications and reports from 9 state officers. 10 Motions and resolutions. 11 Senator Skelos. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 13 could you remove the sponsor's star on Calendar 14 Number 600. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 sponsor's star will be removed on Calendar 17 Number 600. 18 Senator Present. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 20 on behalf of Senator Tully, please place a 21 sponsor's star on Calendar Number 1335. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sponsor's 23 star will be placed on Calendar Number 1335. 5887 1 Senator DiCarlo. 2 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 3 on behalf of Senator Goodman, I wish to call up 4 bill, Print Number 8083-A, recalled from the 5 Assembly which is now at the desk. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 7 will read. 8 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 9 Goodman, Senate Bill Number 8083-A, an act to 10 amend the Tax Law. 11 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 12 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 13 bill was passed. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will call the roll on reconsideration. 16 (The Secretary called the roll on 17 reconsideration. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 DiCarlo. 21 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 22 I now offer the following amendments. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 5888 1 Amendments are received and adopted. 2 Senator DiCarlo. 3 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 4 on behalf of Senator Lack, I wish to call up 5 Bill Number 6694-A recalled from the Assembly 6 which is now at the desk. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read. 9 THE SECRETARY: What was that 10 number? 11 SENATOR DiCARLO: 6694-A. 12 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Lack, 13 Senate Bill Number 6694-A, an act to amend the 14 Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to 15 pre-sentence conditions. 16 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 17 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 18 bill was passed. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will call the roll on reconsideration. 21 (The Secretary called the roll on 22 reconsideration. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31. 5889 1 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 2 I now offer the following amendments. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 4 Amendments are received and adopted. 5 Senator DiCarlo. 6 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 7 on behalf of Senator Lack, I wish to call up 8 bill Print Number 7761, recalled from the 9 Assembly which is now at the desk. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read. 12 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Lack, 13 Senate Bill 7761, an act to amend the Public 14 Authorities Law, in relation to Long Island Rail 15 Road signage. 16 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 17 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 18 bill was passed. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will call the roll on reconsideration. 21 (The Secretary called the roll on 22 reconsideration. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31. 5890 1 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 2 I now offer the following amendments. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 4 Amendments received and adopted. 5 Senator Wright. 6 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I 7 wish to call up my bill, Print Number 6941, 8 recalled from the Assembly which is now at the 9 desk. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read. 12 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 13 Wright, Senate Bill Number 6941, an act to amend 14 the Executive Law and the State Administrative 15 Procedure Act. 16 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I 17 now move to reconsider the vote by which this 18 bill was passed. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will call the roll on reconsideration. 21 (The Secretary called the roll on 22 reconsideration. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31. 5891 1 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I 2 now offer the following amendments. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 4 Amendments are received and adopted. 5 Senator Present, we have several 6 substitutions at the desk. What's your 7 pleasure? 8 SENATOR PRESENT: Let's make the 9 substitutions. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read the substitutions. 12 THE SECRETARY: On page 7 of 13 today's calendar, Senator Wright moves to 14 discharge the Committee on Rules from Assembly 15 Bill Number 11950-A and substitute it for the 16 identical Calendar Number 420. 17 Senator Marchi moves to discharge 18 the Committee on Rules from Assembly Bill Number 19 11848-B and substitute it for the identical 20 Calendar Number 398. 21 On page 28, Senator Spano moves 22 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 23 Assembly Bill Number 12000 and substitute it for 5892 1 the identical Calendar Number 1216. 2 On page 32, Senator Montgomery 3 moves to discharge the Committee on Rules from 4 Assembly Bill Number 4109-A and substitute it 5 for the identical Third Reading 1354. 6 On page 33, Senator Velella moves 7 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 8 Assembly Bill Number 9582 and substitute it for 9 the identical Calendar Number 1360. 10 On page 33, Senator Levy moves to 11 discharge the Committee on Transportation from 12 Assembly Bill Number 2438-A and substitute it 13 for the identical Third Reading 1361. 14 On page 33, Senator Stachowski 15 moves to discharge the Committee on Rules from 16 Assembly Bill Number 9465-B and substitute it 17 for the identical Third Reading 1362. 18 On page 33, Senator Seward moves 19 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 20 Assembly Bill Number 9832-A and substitute it 21 for the identical Third Reading 1363. 22 On page 34, Senator Present moves 23 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 5893 1 Assembly Bill Number 11587 and substitute it for 2 the identical Third Reading 1366. 3 On page 35, Senator Lack moves to 4 discharge the Committee on Rules from Assembly 5 Bill Number 11513, and substitute it for the 6 identical Third Reading 1371. 7 On page 35, Senator Present moves 8 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 9 Assembly Bill Number 11632-A and substitute it 10 for the identical Third Reading 1375. 11 On page 35, Senator Skelos moves 12 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 13 Assembly Bill Number 11700 and substitute it for 14 the identical Third Reading 1377. 15 On page 36, Senator Libous moves 16 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 17 Assembly Bill Number 11828 and substitute it for 18 the identical Third Reading 1380. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 20 Substitutions are ordered. 21 Senator Present, that brings us 22 to the calendar. 23 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 5894 1 we are going to attempt -- we are trying 2 starting today to start every session 11 o'clock 3 in the morning. We can only do it if we have 4 full cooperation of all the members, so I plead 5 again for those members not here to report to 6 the Senate chambers immediately. 7 Mr. President, let's take up the 8 non-controversial calendar. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will read the non-controversial calendar. 11 THE SECRETARY: On page 5 of 12 today's calendar, Calendar Number 289, by 13 Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 3204, an act to 14 amend the Social Services Law. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 16 please. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 18 bill aside. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 702, on page 14, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill 21 Number 3205-A, an act to amend the Social 22 Services Law and the Public Health Law. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 5895 1 please. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 3 bill aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 704, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 6 4368-A, an act to amend the Social Services Law. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 9 a local fiscal impact note at the desk. The 10 bill will be laid aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 705, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 13 5422-B, an act to amend the Social Services Law 14 and the Executive Law. 15 SENATOR JONES: Lay aside. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 17 bill aside. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 706, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 20 6500. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 22 bill aside. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5896 1 708, by Sen... 2 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 4 bill aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 799, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 736, 7 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, please. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 10 bill aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 800, by Senator Holland. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 15 bill aside. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 801, by Senator Daly. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 20 bill aside. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Excuse me. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 9... 5897 1 SENATOR GOLD: Excuse me. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Gold, why do you rise? 4 SENATOR GOLD: May I just make an 5 inquiry of the desk as to how many people are 6 checked in today? I'm not asking a quorum call; 7 I just want to know. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's 9 31 members checked in, Senator Gold. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Well, I would just 11 like to say I very much appreciate Senator 12 Present's attempt to start on time today, and I 13 would urge that people understand that this 14 calendar as it came out, seems to have a 15 direction that it is following. There are a lot 16 of issues on here which you could describe as 17 social service issues and there may be a lot of 18 people in their offices who are interested in 19 these issues and may want their positions not 20 only recorded later in the day, as if I were 21 here please, unanimous consents, they may want 22 to speak on these issues. 23 We are in a calendar call, and I 5898 1 would urge everyone to come to the chamber. 2 Senator Present has done everything he can, and 3 I would like to be supportive of that, so I 4 would urge people to please come to the 5 chambers. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 7 will continue to call the non-controversial 8 calendar. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 990, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2915-C, 11 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 13 will read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 33. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 21 is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 993, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 5407-E, 5899 1 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read the last section. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, please. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 6 bill aside. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 994, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 5533-B, 9 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, please. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 12 bill aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 995, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 6595-A, 15 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 17 please. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 19 bill aside. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 996, by member of the Assembly Jacobs, Assembly 22 Bill Number 10839, an act to amend the Social 23 Services Law. 5900 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 2 will read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 10 is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 997, by Senator Libous, Senate Bill Number 7515, 13 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will read the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 23 is passed. 5901 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 998, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 3 8349-A, an act to amend the Social Services 4 Law. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6 will read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, 12 please. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 14 bill aside. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 999, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 17 8353, an act to amend the Social Services Law. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 19 will read the last section. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on. All 21 right. Last section. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the last section. 5902 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 8 is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 1133, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 11 8344-A, an act to amend the Penal Law. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, please. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 14 bill aside. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Can you just hold 16 on for one moment, please. 17 Thank you very much. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 19 will continue to call the non-controversial 20 calendar. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 1238, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 23 8261-A, an act to amend the Social Services Law. 5903 1 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, please. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 3 bill aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1239, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 8266, 6 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 8 please. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 10 bill aside. 11 Senator Present, that completes 12 the non-controversial calendar. What's your 13 pleasure, sir? 14 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 15 I move that we adopt the Resolution Calendar 16 with the exception of 4136. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Gold. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, I 21 apologize. I interrupted and I didn't mean to, 22 Senator Present. There's a bill we did pass, 23 999. Yeah, could we please reconsider that 5904 1 vote? I'm sorry, Senator. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 3 return to motions and resolutions. The motion 4 is to adopt the Resolution Calendar with the 5 exception of 4136. 6 SENATOR PRESENT: And may I amend 7 my motion to except 4076 too, with the exception 8 of 4076. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 4076. 10 The question is on the - 11 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on. Yeah, 12 Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Gold. 15 SENATOR GOLD: I don't have an 16 objection, but there were two bills, two 17 resolutions, 4167 and 4168, which I think are 18 appropriate for sponsorship by the house, and I 19 would ask that they be opened up in our usual 20 way and unless somebody wants to be off. 21 SENATOR PRESENT: 4167 and 4168? 22 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. 23 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 5905 1 I would suggest that all members of the house be 2 co-sponsors of these two resolutions with the 3 exception of those who decline. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 5 will direct the Secretary to place all members 6 of the Senate chamber on Resolutions Number 4167 7 and 4168 unless those members decide they don't 8 want to sponsor the resolutions, and they should 9 indicate such to the desk. 10 The question is on the adoption 11 of the Resolution Calendar. All those in favor 12 signify by saying aye. 13 (Response of "Aye.") 14 Opposed nay. 15 (There was no response. ) 16 The Resolution Calendar is 17 adopted with the exception of Resolution 4176. 18 Senator Gold. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Oh, yes, thank 20 you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: With 22 regard to Calendar Number - 23 SENATOR GOLD: 999. 5906 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: -- 999, 2 the motion is to reconsider the vote by which 3 the bill passed the house. Clerk will call the 4 roll on reconsideration. 5 (The Secretary called the roll on 6 reconsideration. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 9 bill aside. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 11 please. 12 ACTING PRSIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Present? 14 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 15 will you recognize Senator Cook, please. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Cook. 18 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, I 19 believe I have a privileged resolution at the 20 desk. I'd like the title read and the passage 21 of it, if you would, please. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the title to Senator Cook's privileged 5907 1 resolution at the desk. 2 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 3 Resolution Number 4136, by Senator Cook, 4 honoring Joyce G. Valenti upon her being 5 selected New York State Teacher - 6 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, 7 wrong resolution, privileged resolution honoring 8 Henry and Gladys Wilcox, the privileged 9 resolution. It's not on the calendar. 10 THE SECRETARY: Oh, I'm sorry. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We now 12 have the privileged resolution at the desk. Ask 13 the Secretary to read. 14 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 15 Resolution, by Senator Cook, commending Henry 16 and Gladys Wilcox for their commitment and 17 dedication to the community of Masonville, New 18 York. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 20 is on the resolution. All those in favor 21 signify by saying aye. 22 (Response of "Aye.") 23 Opposed nay. 5908 1 (There was no response. ) 2 The resolution is adopted. 3 Chair recognizes Senator Present. 4 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 5 let's do the controversial calendar. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 7 will read the non-controversial -- or excuse me, 8 the controversial calendar. 9 THE SECRETARY: On page 5, 10 Calendar Number 289, by Senator Daly, Senate 11 Bill Number 3204, an act to amend the Social 12 Services Law, in relation to training and 13 employment-related requirements. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: An 16 explanation has been asked for, Senator Daly, 17 by - 18 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, 19 this bill strengthens the sanctions of Home 20 Relief recipients who do not comply with 21 training and employment requirements. It also 22 clarifies the burden of proof for failure by 23 public assistance recipients to comply with 5909 1 education, training and employment-related 2 requirements, rests with the recipient; makes 3 clear that anyone who voluntarily quits his or 4 her job is ineligible for Home Relief or AFDC 5 benefits for 75 days. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 7 recognizes Senator Gold. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 9 Would the Senator yield to a 10 question? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Daly, would you yield? 13 SENATOR DALY: Yes, I will. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 yields. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Senator, 17 first of all, does this bill deal with the issue 18 of conciliation, and what does it do with it, if 19 anything? 20 SENATOR DALY: Deal with the 21 issue of conciliation? 22 SENATOR GOLD: Am I right on it? 23 Yes. 5910 1 SENATOR DALY: No. 2 SENATOR GOLD: I'm told my 3 counsel - 4 SENATOR DALY: What phase of 5 conciliation, specifically what section of the 6 bill are you talking to? 7 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Well, 8 while we get that, let me ask you a different 9 question, all right? 10 SENATOR DALY: All right. 11 SENATOR GOLD: The Constitution, 12 which generally never gets in our way when it's 13 inconvenient, requires care of the poor and the 14 needy. If we have sanctions against it, why is 15 that not challengeable constitutionally? 16 SENATOR DALY: We already have 17 sanctions, Senator. We already have sanctions. 18 This increases the sanctions. Sanctions already 19 exist in cases such as this, and this also moves 20 the -- read it here, burden of proof. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I draw 22 your attention, if you may -- if you would, to 23 page 3 of the bill, lines 21 to 26, and what is 5911 1 that intended to do? 2 SENATOR DALY: M-m h-m-m. Lines 3 21 through 26? 4 SENATOR GOLD: Page 3, lines 5 21 - 6 SENATOR DALY: Page 3, I'm 7 looking at page 2; you'll have to excuse me. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Page 3 which deals 9 with the conciliation procedure. 10 SENATOR DALY: That -- you 11 talking about the change there on line 22? Where 12 the participation of an applicant for or 13 recipients of aid to dependent children, that 14 additional change? It does deal with the 15 conciliation process, you're right, Senator, it 16 does. 17 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Well, 18 Senator, thanks for your time. 19 I, once again, before I make my 20 comments, would urge my colleagues on this side 21 of the aisle who have interest in this 22 legislation to please come to the chamber. 23 Obviously, there'll be an opportunity to do 5912 1 something with your vote later but, if you want 2 to be heard on these issues, now is the time. 3 At this point, I see other people 4 want to speak, and I'll hold my remarks. 5 Senator Dollinger, did you want to - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Dollinger. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 9 President, will the sponsor yield to a question? 10 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Daly yields. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think I 14 understand the intent of this bill, Senator, and 15 I agree with major portions of it. I'm just 16 concerned about the issue of the burden of 17 proof. Where in the statute or in the bill does 18 it mention the shifting of the burden of proof? 19 Could you just explain to me how that portion 20 works? 21 SENATOR DALY: It mentions it on 22 page 2, line 16 and 17; we take out "wilfully." 23 We'll delete the word "wilfully." Usually - 5913 1 with "wilfully" still in, with "wilfully" in the 2 law, that puts the burden of proof on the 3 Department. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What's in the 5 law? 6 SENATOR DALY: We remove the word 7 "wilfully". 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. But that 9 means so -- does that really alter the burden of 10 proof or just reduce it? 11 SENATOR DALY: It alters it, 12 "alters" is a better word. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And the other 14 question I have, and again it may be in other 15 parts of the statute other than in this bill, 16 but how is the adjudication made that someone 17 has -- has voluntarily terminated their 18 employment or reduced their earning capacity? 19 What type of procedural step is there? I assume 20 someone comes in and applies for benefits 21 because they've lost their job and, as part of 22 the disclosure process, they provide information 23 that says "I left my last job under X 5914 1 circumstances." 2 How is the adjudication of the 3 circumstances of the loss of employment or the 4 reduction of employment, how is that made? 5 SENATOR DALY: I'm sorry, 6 Senator. Please repeat that. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, I 8 apologize. 9 SENATOR DALY: You lost me in the 10 middle. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: As I 12 understand it, the way this works is that, if 13 you voluntarily leave your employment or if 14 there is a reduction in your earning capacity, 15 you will not be eligible for benefits. 16 SENATOR DALY: That's right. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: If you're an 18 AFDC recipient, and my question is, how is the 19 adjudication of whether they voluntarily left 20 their prior employment or they had a reduction 21 in their earning capacity, how is that made? 22 SENATOR DALY: Well, the 23 Department makes that determination. 5915 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. That's 2 made at the time of application. 3 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And that's in 5 the normal hearing process. 6 SENATOR DALY: And they would 7 receive emergency assistance until the final 8 determination is made. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you. I 10 have nothing further, Mr. President, thank you. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 12 recognizes Senator Gold. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, I just want 14 to ask Senator Daly one last question. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Daly, do you yield to Senator Gold? 17 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 yields. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, is this 21 the identical bill that we had last year for 22 that amendment? 23 SENATOR DALY: Yes, it is. 5916 1 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, 2 I'll yield to Senator Espada then and then I'll 3 come back. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 5 recognizes Senator Espada. 6 SENATOR ESPADA: Will the sponsor 7 -- thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President, 8 will the sponsor yield to a question? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Daly, will you yield to a question of Senator 11 Espada? 12 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Daly yields. 15 SENATOR ESPADA: Senator, with 16 respect to the non-compliant population that we 17 seek to target in this legislation, what in 18 formation do we have about their non 19 compliance; is it just a broad stroke that we're 20 taking here, or do we know specifically why 21 people are not compliant with training programs 22 that they're mandated to attend? 23 SENATOR DALY: No, we didn't make 5917 1 any studies of the number of people who are not 2 in compliance or why they're not in compliance. 3 Very frankly, basically, what we're saying is 4 that we do believe that there should be more of 5 a -- as you know, welfare, of course, is a 6 carrot and also a stick. 7 SENATOR ESPADA: I'm sorry; I 8 can't hear. 9 SENATOR DALY: Pardon? 10 SENATOR ESPADA: I couldn't hear 11 that. 12 SENATOR DALY: All right. Let me 13 start over. The thrust of the legislation is to 14 try -- is to keep people who are on welfare at 15 work and, very frankly, it's a push, it's a push 16 by the state saying, Listen, you just can't 17 depend on the state, on welfare for the rest of 18 your lives. You have to work, and this is a 19 sanction. 20 It is a sanction, Senator, I 21 agree, on people -- people on welfare who, very 22 frankly, leave their jobs, quit their jobs to 23 remain or they get on welfare or really to stay 5918 1 off -- to stay on welfare. 2 SENATOR ESPADA: If I may, Mr. 3 President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Espada. 6 SENATOR ESPADA: The thrust of 7 this, if I heard you correctly, is really a job 8 creation, job maintenance type of effort that 9 you seek to enforce here? 10 SENATOR DALY: No, I say more - 11 very frankly, it's a deterrent so that clients 12 will continue to comply with training and work 13 requirements. It is a deterrent. It's saying 14 if you do not obey the rules and regs, the work 15 and the -- for training and work, the 16 requirements that the state has set, then you 17 will be punished. It's a deterrent. 18 SENATOR ESPADA: If I just may 19 continue. I'm aware this - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Daly, do you continue to yield? 22 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5919 1 Daly continues to yield. 2 SENATOR ESPADA: Are you aware 3 for our clients, that this is first and foremost 4 a punitive measure? But I would ask that, are 5 you aware of a study recently conducted by the 6 Safety Net Monitoring Project wherein they find 7 that the client sanction is primarily for 8 paperwork and reasons given for non-compliance 9 had to do with not only paperwork, but other 10 family crises, lack of day care, lack of a 11 support system in effect. While I agree with 12 you that people who are able-bodied that other 13 wise are available for the work force should be 14 worked or encouraged to work, I am very 15 concerned because I know that this is one of 16 many measures that would be brought to this 17 floor for a vote. 18 I am very concerned that we're 19 not paying attention to that support mechanism 20 that people need to continue to go to their work 21 sites. 22 SENATOR DALY: Senator - 23 SENATOR ESPADA: So the question 5920 1 is, are you aware or concerned with the lack of 2 a support mechanism -- transportation, day care, 3 for the HR/AFDC population? 4 SENATOR DALY: Senator, first may 5 I say several things in answer to your question, 6 your concerns, which is good. 7 The regulations do have a list of 8 exceptions for good cause. It's right here in 9 Section 383.19 of the regulations. There are - 10 there are exemptions from this law for good 11 cause. Let me say for example, the place of 12 employment requires reasonable travel from the 13 applicant's or recipient's home, transportation 14 between the applicant or recipient's home and 15 place of employment is unavailable, and on and 16 on. 17 So there are -- the Department of 18 Social Services can use those exemptions in - 19 in dealing with individual cases. You've got to 20 remember, Senator, that this bill is primarily, 21 as I said, a deterrent so that clients do comply 22 with these requirements. Frankly, it's -- the 23 client must know that there are -- some of them 5921 1 must know that there are serious consequences 2 for their attempting to beat the system, in all 3 honesty. 4 This legislation is aimed at 5 those, hopefully a minority of people who want 6 to beat the system and are running around from 7 one -- go from one reason to another and, under 8 the existing law, can get away with it. This 9 bill is not there to hurt the person who -- who 10 really needs the help, who is using welfare as a 11 transitional -- transitional element to help to 12 move them, to move them forward, move themselves 13 forward. 14 SENATOR ESPADA: Mr. President, 15 thank Senator Daly. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 17 recognizes Senator Gold. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 19 Senator Mendez, I think, had a question, or you 20 want me to talk first? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Mendez. 23 SENATOR GOLD: I yield briefly to 5922 1 Senator Mendez. 2 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, 3 Senator Gold. 4 Mr. President, would Senator Daly 5 yield for a question? 6 SENATOR DALY: Senator Daly, do 7 you yield to Senator Mendez? Senator Daly 8 yields. 9 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator Daly, in 10 your bill, any person who quits the job will not 11 be entitled to receive Home Relief, is that so? 12 SENATOR DALY: Not unless they 13 can be -- they have legitimate reason which 14 exempts them from the -- from the sanctions in 15 this bill, and I mentioned that DSS can have 16 exemptions which would excuse someone who really 17 had a significant problem in that job. 18 SENATOR MENDEZ: Well, then, how 19 will this bill affect a woman who quits her job 20 because she is being harassed sexually by her 21 boss and she doesn't want to make any big scenes 22 and just leave the job because she feels very 23 uncomfortable with it, or because she is unaware 5923 1 of the magnificent legislation that we passed 2 last week here in this Legislature? How would 3 that - 4 SENATOR DALY: That would be a 5 very -- I don't think -- we're checking right 6 now, Senator, but I don't think that's one of 7 the exemptions, reasons for exemption given, but 8 it would seem to me someone who is harassed has 9 the normal legal channels to which she can go 10 and certainly should go if there is sexual 11 harassment involved. Certainly she should go 12 through the channels that already exist. 13 SENATOR MENDEZ: I know you agree 14 with me that that woman shouldn't be penalized 15 for a situation that she is not responsible in 16 creating. However, this bill, the person that 17 does the intake and, you know, in our different 18 social services offices might very well, since 19 it's not clear in the legislation that that 20 situation would not be acceptable, might just 21 say, "Well, sorry, Lady, you're out of luck, 22 you're unable to get the benefits." See what I 23 mean, Senator Daly? 5924 1 SENATOR DALY: Well, as I said, 2 we're checking the exemptions right now, 3 Senator. My staff, my aide tells me that there 4 is language in there that she could use. But I 5 submit to you, remembering also the purpose of 6 this bill is to try to get, very frankly -- to 7 have an effect on those people who try to beat 8 the system, and unfortunately, it would be 9 someone could could beat the system by saying 10 one time after another, "I was sexually 11 harassed," and then automatically be exempted 12 from the sanctions. 13 So we do have that problem. I 14 want to close those doors. I don't want to open 15 up new windows. 16 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes, I 17 understand you feel that way. 18 SENATOR DALY: And that's why I 19 would suggest the system that we have right now 20 should deal properly with sexual harassment 21 should that be involved. 22 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, 23 Senator Daly. I appreciate your brief 5925 1 explanation. I hope that the clarification 2 would be sufficient at this point to have to 3 follow my inclination, I'm voting for this 4 bill. 5 On the other hand, as long as we 6 have to concentrate and maybe find other ways in 7 which we could resolve the problems that make 8 the administration of our public assistance that 9 makes everybody very angry, without getting new 10 solutions, without pounding or denying benefits 11 to people that really are constitutionally 12 entitled to receive them. 13 Thank you, Mr. President. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 16 recognizes Senator Gold. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. I am 18 in no way closing the debate here, but I would 19 like to make some remarks of my own. 20 Last year there were 14 people in 21 the negative, including Senator Mendez and 22 Senator Connor, Espada, Galiber, Gold, Leichter, 23 Markowitz, Montgomery, Nolan, Ohrenstein, 5926 1 Paterson, Santiago, Smith, and Stavisky and, as 2 Senator Daly said there has been no change. 3 What troubles me about the 4 calendar today in general, at least this part of 5 the calendar, and we understand there will be 6 other calendars coming out, is basic 7 philosophy. 8 Now, in 1970, all we used to hear 9 was about welfare cheats, welfare cheats, 10 they're rippin' off the state and got to do 11 something about welfare cheats, and I thought 12 that we were prodded to do some things and pass 13 some legislation. We got into the '80s and I'd 14 go through these campaigns at home, and I'd talk 15 to people about how the statistics were down. 16 We've been able to do something about cheating. 17 The word "welfare" along the way became a dirty 18 word; we don't use that any more. We have 19 gotten the words "public assistance", "social 20 services", we changed the vocabulary. 21 Now, we got through the '80s and 22 we're in the '90s and I should know, if I didn't 23 look at a calendar I could tell you, I'll bet 5927 1 every one of you -- my eyes are closed; I won't 2 look at a calendar, I'll bet you it's an 3 election year because there they are out there. 4 It's every, every fiscal difficulty in the state 5 of New York, every problem in the state of New 6 York goes back to those same bums we were 7 talkin' about in 1970, and, of course, I feel 8 embarrassed for the Majority in this house, 9 because for those 20 years you've had the 10 Majority and apparently all the bills that 11 you've pushed through and forced everybody into 12 didn't do too much good. 13 Well, the truth is, Senator Daly, 14 we have done a lot of good, have done a lot of 15 good, but your argument, Senator Daly, you can't 16 mean what you say. We've got to keep them 17 active, it's a push to get these people active. 18 There are lazy people out there beatin' the 19 system. I don't know who you're talking about, 20 Senator, I really don't know who you're talkin' 21 about. There are people out there who are 22 under-educated; there are people out there who 23 are not of the same mental capacity as others, 5928 1 because regardless of what racial or ethnic 2 back-ground they happen to be -- and I'm not 3 pointing at any group, but I mean who are we 4 talking about? 5 The -- there's a memo I have in 6 opposition from the Federation of Protestant 7 Welfare Agencies. It says that in 90 percent of 8 the FAIR hearings, the welfare agency has been 9 found at fault, and the eligibility reinstated. 10 Their comment is, we're imposing unrealistic 11 sanctions on the poorest of the poor in our 12 state. That's why they're opposed. 13 My inclination, Senator Daly, is 14 that, if you examine the case files, if you want 15 to go into it and see what really is going on, 16 the people who are causing the problems that you 17 seem to think exist are later found to be sick, 18 illiterate, mentally retarded or otherwise 19 disabled and, in these instances, you say they 20 may not fall under your bill in one way or the 21 other, but if nobody is going to fall under the 22 bill, why are we doing the bill? Why? 23 A recent study by the Safety 5929 1 Network, Safety Net Monitoring Project composed 2 of client advocates, found that the clients were 3 sanctioned primarily for failure to submit 4 paperwork or for failure to appear for 5 employment. And the reasons? Recipients never 6 received the forms; third party refused to 7 cooperate in completing the forms; they were 8 never informed of the appointment; recipients 9 did not appear and in 75 percent this says that 10 the non-compliance was voided at hearings. 11 There are some expressions that 12 are used over and over in different situations. 13 How often have you heard, Well, if this -- if we 14 do this penalty and it saves one life, it's 15 worth it, you know. It's worth it if it's one 16 life. Did you ever see a television camera turn 17 off when there was one little child in a well 18 and there was 80 cabillion dollars of equipment 19 and everybody is saving that one little life? 20 Well, Senator Daly, I understand 21 that our social service programs are expensive, 22 but we're not saving one little life, Senator. 23 Hopefully, if they're working properly, we are 5930 1 saving thousands of lives, tens of thousands of 2 lives, hundreds of thousands of lives. 3 And this bill, Senator, unfortun 4 ately, in the opinion of a lot of us, I wouldn't 5 call it flag waving, but I'd call it scapegoat 6 ing, and I'm not saying you're trying to do 7 that. Senator Daly, I've never accused you 8 personally of anything other than pure motives, 9 but I've heard you answer questions from my 10 colleagues this year and in other years and, if 11 you're correct that all the reasons and excuses 12 to take people out of the bill, I don't know who 13 you think you're left with. I don't know who 14 you think you're left with. 15 I know the one thing that we're 16 left with if this bill is read, is a bad taste 17 in our mouths about people who happen to be poor 18 and need help, and that just isn't fair. It's 19 not fair to do to them. I guarantee you, 20 Senator Daly, that the poorest people in this 21 state are not the ones responsible for national 22 economic policy and haven't been throughout the 23 Bush-Reagan years, and they are not the ones 5931 1 like a certain U. S. Senator who calls a broker 2 and can make 37,000 in a day, and I think 3 they're the wrong people to pick on at the end 4 of a legislative session. 5 If there are some legitimate, 6 comfortable ways to eliminate fraud, and I mean 7 comfortable, I don't mean that -- that comfort 8 in the sense of making people in a luxury 9 situation, I mean comfortable in a way that 10 maintains people's dignity and takes a realistic 11 approach as to what goes on out in the streets, 12 I'm not going to oppose it, and I'm sure there 13 are people on this side who won't oppose it; but 14 we shouldn't start this day with a calendar 15 which is meant to point fingers at people merely 16 because they are poor and merely because they 17 are disadvantaged, and I would hope that once 18 again as last year, a substantial number of the 19 people in this house will see past this bill and 20 vote in the negative. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 22 recognizes Senator Waldon. 23 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 5932 1 much, Mr. President. 2 I would ask Senator Daly to yield 3 to a question or two, Mr. President. 4 SENATOR DALY: Sure. 5 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, last 6 night I watched a film, The Barbara Broderick 7 Story, and it caused me to do a circular kind of 8 thought process regarding the O.J. Simpson 9 situation which has brought before us spousal 10 abuse as I've never seen it in my adult life in 11 terms of a lot of people being sensitized to and 12 made aware of. 13 Does this bill address the 14 situations where women and sometimes men may not 15 be able to follow through in the job application 16 process because they are the victims of spousal 17 abuse? 18 SENATOR DALY: Well, as I said, 19 Senator, the rules -- the rules and regulations 20 do exist, the Department of Social Services 21 works with them. I have a copy of them right 22 here. As I said, I can refer you to the page 23 and regulation which allows exemptions from 5933 1 this. 2 In other words, what we're trying 3 to do is not hurt the person who can't go to 4 that job. If the bus stops running from Point A 5 to Point B and there's no way for that person to 6 get transportation, that person will be exempt. 7 What we're trying to do with this legislation, 8 again, is to try to get those people who are 9 beating the system and despite what Senator Gold 10 says, there are people out there trying to beat 11 the system. 12 Senator Gold contradicted 13 himself. First he said he indicated there's no 14 fraud, you know. We're just -- here we are, the 15 guy with the guns attacking the poor people. 16 I'll talk about that later, Senator; I'm not 17 going to take up your time on the floor by going 18 into comments I want to make concerning Senator 19 Gold's comments, but I will say the legislation 20 is aimed at getting to those people, getting 21 those people who are trying to beat the system. 22 We do not -- we do not amend or repeal the 23 rules and regulations under Title 18 of Social 5934 1 Service, 385.18 which allows for exemption for 2 legitimate reasons for people who cannot meet 3 these requirements. 4 SENATOR WALDON: So from that, if 5 I may continue, Mr. President, I assume, Senator 6 Daly, and correct me if I'm incorrect, that 7 someone who was a victim, who was, I should say 8 the victim of spousal abuse, might be exempted 9 under one of the exemptions? 10 SENATOR DALY: Senator, I would 11 be delighted to send you -- go down through 12 them. I can't speak to that individual 13 situation. I don't know all the rules and regs 14 by heart, by rote. All I would say is that 15 there are exemptions. We're not trying to get 16 that person who has a legitimate reason for not 17 being able to meet those needs and those 18 requirements. 19 SENATOR WALDON: O.K. If I may 20 continue, Senator Daly. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Daly continue to yield? Senator Daly yields. 23 SENATOR WALDON: Just to respond 5935 1 to another question. Senator, would you agree 2 with me that one of the strengths of this nation 3 which has been a strength of this nation since 4 time immemorial, has been its Constitution and 5 the Constitutions of our various individual 6 states? 7 SENATOR DALY: Of course. 8 Certainly, Senator. 9 SENATOR WALDON: Would you also 10 agree, Senator, that there is a process for 11 amending the various and sundry state 12 Constitutions and as well, our federal 13 Constitution? 14 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 15 SENATOR WALDON: Would you then 16 agree with me that there's a possibility under 17 this proposed legislation that we are, in 18 effect, amending the Constitution without 19 following the prescribed processes as I know 20 them and perhaps as you agree they are? 21 SENATOR DALY: I -- no, Senator, 22 I can't say that. I understand what the point 23 you're making, what the -- of that clause in the 5936 1 New York State Constitution, that is used in 2 courts quite frequently in the social service 3 area, but we have tried to draft these bills so 4 as to be in compliance with the Constitution and 5 we've had that in mind when the bills were 6 drafted. 7 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 8 much, Senator. I appreciate your indulgence. 9 Mr. President, if I may speak 10 just briefly on the bill. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Waldon, on the bill. 13 SENATOR WALDON: On many 14 occasions, I have agreed with Senator Daly not 15 only because he's an erudite person but because 16 he is one of the true gentlemen in this house 17 and we have had much dialogue on many issues. 18 However, the point just made is one which causes 19 me to, without equivocation, not be able to 20 support him in this instance because the 21 Constitution is very clear in Article XXVII that 22 permanent sanctions of the nature prescribed by 23 this bill would not only be in violation of the 5937 1 Constitution, as I understand it, but would also 2 create probably a greater burden financially on 3 the state as a result of the suits which would 4 ensue because of the violation of the 5 Constitution and, though I would like to be 6 supportive of Senator Daly whenever possible, 7 this time I can not because the most important 8 document that we have in this state is our 9 Constitution, and I support it unequivocally. 10 Thank you, Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 12 recognizes Senator Daly. 13 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, I 14 rise to comment on the statement made by Senator 15 Gold in particular. 16 First of all, as I said, this 17 legislation is aimed at people who are trying to 18 beat the system, and to ignore the fact that 19 there are people out there who do take advantage 20 of our laws and our system, I think, is putting 21 one's head in the sand. 22 We have to reduce fraud. We have 23 to take off the rolls those people who do not 5938 1 belong on the rolls and, as I -- may I also add, 2 Mr. President, that this legislation is part of 3 a package goes beyond just -- goes beyond -- let 4 me begin that sentence all over again. This 5 legislation is part of a package which is aimed 6 at changing our welfare system in a great way, 7 in toto almost, because very frankly, one of the 8 problems that we have is that we've developed a 9 system where we use a cup. We are great 10 generous people. We give people a little cup 11 and they can come, cup in hand, month after 12 month, year after year, generation after 13 generation, to the well to have the cup filled 14 and I submit, Mr. President, that a system such 15 as that does no favor to the state or the 16 taxpayers of the state, and I point to the great 17 increase in cost that's literally disrupted 18 state government in so many areas over the last 19 ten years and something we have to do something 20 about; and Medicaid and welfare are intertwined 21 as far as costs are concerned and cannot be 22 separated. 23 But it goes beyond the money that 5939 1 it's costing the state and the disruption that 2 it's costing the state's economy and the -- and 3 among the state's taxpayers, it goes to the 4 people themselves, and if we are willing to 5 accept the system where we give them that cup, 6 and say, All right, come fill it every month, 7 then we're doing a great disservice to those 8 people because that type of life atrophies the 9 mind and body and destroys the spirit and what 10 we have to do is rise above that system and if 11 it means at times we have to go to tough love 12 then we go to tough love. I've had to go to 13 tough love on a son when he was 23 years of age 14 and it worked. There's nothing wrong with it. 15 Unfortunately, it's difficult but we have to 16 face reality. 17 The system we have today is not 18 working. That's why you have 19 bills, 19 Senator. It's not because we're trying, very 20 frankly, I'm trying to get headlines in 21 tomorrow's Niagara Gazette at all, because I 22 believe very sincerely that the system we have 23 in place has become in the minds of some a 5940 1 permanent system, a permanent. 2 We have now -- what do we have? 3 We have generation after generation after 4 generation, 58 percent of the people on welfare 5 come from families that were on welfare. 58 6 percent. Can't we recognize that we have a bad 7 system here and that I'm not here, nor is 8 Senator Holland, to beat up on the poor. Maybe 9 it's because we care about the poor. 10 I care about the taxpayers too. 11 We want to get the frauds and the cheats off 12 welfare. What's wrong with that? Do they 13 belong? That woman that several weeks ago 14 reading the story in the paper of making 15 hundreds of thousands of dollars. I don't know 16 how many cards she had. How about the 224 17 people who came from New Jersey over to New 18 York, with post office box numbers collecting 19 welfare improperly? Should we turn our heads to 20 that? Should we put our heads in the sand and 21 say, Well, don't, don't go after -- they're 22 poor; don't go after them. 23 And what are you doing to those 5941 1 people who really want help, who realize that 2 welfare should be transitional in nature? And 3 that's the bottom line. It should be 4 transitional in nature. It should not be 5 permanent and yet you know what we've done? 6 We've put in the minds of many people that 7 welfare is a permanent way of life and young 8 children born into welfare come up, raised with 9 the idea that welfare is their ultimate 10 opportunity. 11 And what do we give them? Instead 12 of a life, we give them an existence. Why do we 13 recognize that what we're doing in the state is 14 wrong, not only in the state but for the people 15 that we try to help; and why don't we change 16 it? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 18 recognizes Senator Espada. 19 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, Mr. 20 President. 21 This cascade of punitive measures 22 has absolutely nothing, nothing to do with 23 improving the lives of poor people. Let's just 5942 1 get that straight. 2 The premise, this premise of - 3 that people who are on welfare are frauds, I 4 don't -- I'm sure that the transcript will read 5 as Senator Daly and others justify this 6 competition for, you know, who's going to win 7 the Frankenstein law award for the most 8 mean-spirited measures against poor people, this 9 kind of contest will go on and in the end, as we 10 know - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Daly, why do you rise? 13 SENATOR DALY: Will the Senator 14 yield to a question. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Espada, you want to yield to a question? 17 SENATOR ESPADA: I would love to; 18 I just want to finish this thought, and then 19 I'll engage with Senator Daly. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 doesn't yield. 22 SENATOR ESPADA: This two to 23 three percent that the Department of Social 5943 1 Services -- this is not my Department of Social 2 Services; it is our New York State Department of 3 Social Services unencumbered by any biases or 4 election year kind of messages to the folks out 5 there -- has said that two to three percent is 6 the fraud rate. Actually they didn't use the 7 word "fraud." Much of it has to do with 8 administrative error, they say, of the two to 9 three percent of the problem population here. 10 Most of it has to do with administrative errors 11 and so let's be truthful here when we focus in 12 on this problem, when this nation talks about 13 health care reform, the crime problem and right 14 next to it welfare reform, these are national 15 issues that command the kinds of dignified 16 approach and thought that is missing here in 17 these legislative initiatives because the truth 18 of the matter is that in the last five years the 19 welfare rolls have swelled by about 33 to 40 20 percent. 21 There are reasons for that. You 22 want to attack certain incumbent governors 23 because they have been responsible, allegedly 5944 1 been responsible, for the national recession 2 that has led to 3-, 4-, 500,000 jobs mostly 3 manufacturing jobs leaving our state. 4 Well, isn't there some kind of 5 correlation between the loss of those types of 6 jobs, permanent structurally lost to our economy 7 and the increase in welfare rolls? Isn't there 8 something that we could start saying about the 9 structural problem that we have about the 10 generational dependency on public assistance 11 other than focusing in on the two to three 12 percent of the criminal element that, in a 13 premeditated way, go out there to cheat the 14 system? 15 I don't know that you attack any 16 problem on any level by starting off with the 17 fringe element, with the one to two percent. 18 Why not focus in on the hard core, the nucleus 19 of the problem which is job creation, day care, 20 child care, which is trying to get people 21 through an education system with its terrible 22 inequities that we've spoken to many times 23 here. 5945 1 Why don't we do that? Because 2 they don't make good sound bites; because in an 3 election year and two-year terms, it doesn't 4 give us enough time to go to our communities and 5 say, You know what? We need to increase money 6 for people in job training programs, people who 7 suffer from child neglect, from spousal abuse, 8 from all these other ills that we, from time to 9 time, recognize with Hollywood and the news 10 media forces us to come to grips with the 11 issue. No, we don't want to do that. 12 Instead, we want to go out there 13 and say, Hey, what, you know, if they should 14 happen to win a lottery for a million dollars we 15 nail them and if they don't show up because they 16 are -- suffer from a mental illness or any 17 number of other problems, too bad, it's tough 18 love. They won't be on and, you know what? Not 19 just for, you know, three months or four months, 20 we took them off permanently. 21 Now, we have a rather extensive 22 data base that's accumulating here off of 23 Wisconsin, some other states that have taken the 5946 1 lead in these punitive measures wherein we start 2 knowing that we're losing people from the 3 welfare rolls so we can go back and say, Hey, 4 the welfare rolls are declining, but the fact of 5 the matter is that, as we take people off the 6 welfare rolls, there is a concomitant increase 7 in people's misery index in other areas, all of 8 which cost us and them in other states a great 9 deal of money. 10 So the goal really isn't to 11 reform welfare. It's to take people off of 12 welfare, and it's really a crusade to change 13 the, quote, "morality of welfare," starting 14 with, again, the basic premise that these people 15 are lazy and do not want to work. 16 Now, Senator Daly and others, I 17 agree, because we've had some exposure to one 18 another -- yeah, personally, we're not out to 19 get anybody, but these are ill-conceived 20 legislative initiatives born out of probably, I 21 would hope to think, is a lack of awareness. 22 I have, along with Senator 23 Santiago, the highest population of AFDC and HR 5947 1 dependent people in this state. You can not say 2 that; Senator Holland cannot say that. People 3 would have to take field trips and tours of 4 other areas to really become familiar with the 5 real misery and pain that people go through, 6 generation after generation. 7 I am a second generation survivor 8 of the welfare system, so when we talk about 9 really knowing the problem and when we talk 10 about really wanting to do something to not only 11 eradicate the welfare system and move people off 12 of welfare, we should focus in on eradicating 13 the need for welfare. We can always get away 14 with taking shots at this whole premise that 15 people are lazy and don't want to work because 16 the fears that trigger that stuff and the 17 emotions that trigger that stuff in your 18 district and in others is always there. 19 But we are better than that. You 20 are a stronger leader than that and so are 21 others, and so what we are asking people to do 22 as we pass all these measures here today -- I'll 23 vote against all of them; I'm sure some other 5948 1 people will join me in that, but the fact of the 2 matter is that we're still, despite our dissent 3 and opposition, are pretty much -- are pretty 4 much, I would say, totally focused in on the 5 punitive side of this rather than on the 6 helping, assisting, promoting people to a higher 7 level of -- of human dignity. 8 You know, just to summarize and 9 to indulge any questions, you can not, once you 10 strip people of their dignity, you can't do 11 anything for them, and so as you send this 12 message that we're not dealing with two or three 13 percent of the problem but what we're labeling 14 80, 90 percent of the problem, fraud, and not 15 meriting any real assistance from us, you are 16 creating a generation without any dignity or 17 respect for themselves, and it's going to be 18 very, very difficult to undo that, and I yield 19 to any questions, sir. 20 SENATOR DALY: O.K. I would like 21 the floor, Mr. President, but I have no 22 questions of the Senator. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All 5949 1 right. 2 Senator Leichter. Senator 3 Leichter -- we have -- the Chair has a list 4 running. I expect to have a list running most 5 of the afternoon, so if you will just indicate 6 to me that you wish to speak on a bill we will 7 certainly do that. Currently I have two 8 speakers. Senator Leichter is next, Senator 9 Dollinger following Senator Leichter. 10 The Chair recognizes Senator 11 Leichter. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 13 my colleagues, I listened to Senator Espada and 14 I listened to Senator Daly. I think that 15 Senator Espada deals with facts, deals with the 16 reality. Senator Daly, you deal with myths. 17 Lets me say I know you personally and I know, 18 therefore, that you're extremely warm-hearted 19 and generous personally, but yet when I heard 20 you speak, it was like you were a character out 21 of a Dickens novel, you know, saying poverty is 22 a sin, and talking about cheats and people who 23 try to beat the system. 5950 1 Senator, we're dealing with 2 myths. The fact of the matter is that our 3 welfare system is not a generous system. You 4 talk about the tin cup and filling the tin cup. 5 People don't go on welfare because this is such 6 a good and easy life. Senator, it isn't. We've 7 seen the amount that people receive under Home 8 Relief and Aid For Dependent Children shrink. 9 We haven't raised the shelter allowance in four, 10 five years. It's a disgrace, so the idea that 11 people go on welfare because of the generous 12 benefits is just bunk. 13 People go on welfare, Senator, 14 for a number of reasons. And is it a national 15 problem? Absolutely. Do we have to do 16 something about it? Yes, absolutely. But the 17 sort of punitive approach is not the way to go. 18 Let's take a look at who is on welfare, what 19 brought them to welfare, and the one thing 20 that's totally lacking from your equation, 21 Senator -- and it's a glaring gap -- is the fact 22 that we have an economy which does not have a 23 sufficient number of jobs. We have a high rate 5951 1 of unemployment, Senator, very high rate, 2 certainly compared to Japan and Germany, and 3 there just are not jobs. There particularly are 4 not the lower level entry jobs that fueled our 5 economy and sustained our society some 50, 75 6 years ago, maybe even as long ago as 30 years, 7 and to deal with the welfare problem, to change 8 welfare as we know it, as President Clinton has 9 summoned the nation to do, but unfortunately we 10 have not yet found the will either in Congress 11 or for that matter here. To change that system 12 is going to cost money. If you want to get 13 people off welfare, you're going to have to 14 spend money and that's the last thing that 15 you're willing to do. 16 You know what you're going to 17 have to address? You're going to have to address 18 educational needs. 19 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, 20 will the Senator yield to a question? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, 22 Senator Leichter yields. 23 SENATOR DALY: Have you read the 5952 1 bill that will be coming out shortly called the 2 "family in transition" bill? Have you read the 3 bill coming up shortly that is called the inde 4 pendence transition in family bill? 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, when 6 we get to that bill - 7 SENATOR DALY: Well, then, 8 Senator, before you make broad statements like 9 that that we're not willing to spend money, I 10 suggest you read the rest of the bills. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator, 12 we have a bill before us right now, and we also 13 have, I respectfully submit, an attitude which I 14 think was extremely well expressed by you in 15 your comments talking about the tin cup and 16 people beating the system, and so on. That 17 really was it. You start off with the view that 18 anybody who's on welfare is a cheat and they've 19 got to prove that they're entitled to be on 20 there. That's the attitude, Senator, and the 21 point that I'm trying to make to you is that 22 what you're going to have to do is, you're going 23 to have to deal with people, many of whom, 5953 1 unfortunately are dysfunctional. You're going 2 to have to deal with people who don't have 3 education. We're going to have to find a way to 4 enable these people to gain an education. It's 5 going to be difficult. Yes, we've had 6 generations that have grown up in welfare - 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 DeFrancisco, why do you rise? 9 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I'd ask if 10 Senator Leichter would yield to a question. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Leichter, do you yield to Senator DeFrancisco? 13 Senator Leichter yield. 14 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Senator 15 Leichter, you indicate there is a need for 16 education. Are you aware of the fact that just 17 five years ago, 27 percent of every dollar in 18 the state budget was spent on education and 27 19 percent was on social services and presently 20 this year, 20 percent of every dollar in the 21 state budget is spent on education. That's 20 22 percent; it went down 7 percent. And 38 percent 23 is now being spent on social services. And do 5954 1 you understand, I guess is the question, that 2 every extra dollar we spend and cannot save on 3 social services has been translated into one 4 less dollar for education spending? 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator, 6 there's not an inevitability; this is a decision 7 that was made in this house, primarily in this 8 house; I guess also in the Assembly. It's 9 unfair to say just in this house, but it was a 10 decision that was made as to how we were going 11 to allocate money in a particular pie. There 12 were some of us, Senator, who for some years 13 have been calling for increased revenue to deal 14 with this problem. 15 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: But will 16 the Senator yield again? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Leichter, you continue to yield? 19 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: You agree 20 there is a finite number of dollars to be spent 21 in a state budget on all programs. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: There is a 23 finite number. 5955 1 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Last point 2 and then I'll let you speak, and that the 3 greater the percentage spent on social services, 4 the less for everything else, no matter who is 5 making the decision; is that fair to say? 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, 7 obviously that is correct, but that is not the 8 entire truth. The entire truth is, Senator, 9 that to reduce that amount that we spend on 10 social services we're going to, in the first 11 instance have to spend more money on education, 12 job training, maybe job creation, more than that 13 27 percent that you talked about, the finite - 14 the finite numbers that we have available, that 15 are expandable to a certain extent. 16 We could have, I think, increased 17 them more. I mean there's no sense you and I 18 arguing about the budget now. We easily could, 19 and we obviously have a different view. What 20 we're looking at now are some of the issues that 21 we need to address to achieve a goal that I 22 think we all have. We'd like to move people off 23 welfare. 5956 1 It's demeaning for people on 2 welfare; it's a social cost in many different 3 respects, but to move people off welfare as 4 basically you do by saying, You go out and get a 5 job or we're going to remove you from the rolls, 6 is illusory. It is illusory, one, because many 7 of the people who are on welfare are not capable 8 of having a job or they have children. We don't 9 provide sufficient money for day care. 10 I go back again to the whole 11 problem that we have in -- in educating people 12 for the jobs that are now available, but the 13 basic fact is, and that's the point that I was 14 trying to make to Senator Daly and I want to 15 make it to you and everybody here, is that we 16 have an economy that does not produce enough 17 jobs for all the people. 18 Senator, we have people in the 19 Central Hudson region where, because of the cut 20 backs in IBM, and so on, have become 21 unemployed. These are not cheats. I have a 22 place in the Adirondacks where we have a very 23 high rate of unemployment. These are wonderful 5957 1 people. They are not cheats, Senator, and what 2 you need to address are how we can get people to 3 -- first, to provide jobs and, secondly, to 4 train them and teach them for those jobs and 5 that's going to cost money, Senator, and your 6 party is unwilling to put up that money. 7 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Would the 8 Senator yield to another question? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Leichter, you continue to yield to Senator 11 DeFrancisco? 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 yields. 15 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Presently 16 we do spend money on training and people on 17 unemployment to get training skills, through 18 social services, and I assume you think that's a 19 good thing to continue. I assume that's the 20 premise of what you're saying, but if someone 21 fails to take advantage of the training 22 requirements under the regulations that this 23 governor has put together through his 5958 1 commissioner, isn't it fair for government to 2 say, if you fail to take advantage of programs 3 that we are spending money on, that there should 4 be some sanction so that you take advantage of 5 these training programs? 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: But, Senator, 7 there are sanctions in the law. Right now there 8 are sanctions. If you fail to -- to show that 9 you're engaged in the job search, I think, on 10 the first time that you fail to do that, you 11 lose 90 days of benefits, and so on, so that we 12 do -- we do apply sanctions. Without question, 13 there ought to be sanctions. 14 But the problem, Senator, is with 15 many of the people who are on Home Relief is 16 that unfortunately, many of them are not 17 employable. They have problems of substance 18 abuse. They have other -- they have other 19 problems, some family problems, and so on, and 20 you're going to need to address that. There's a 21 memo in opposition by the Federation of 22 Protestant Welfare Agencies that points out that 23 when people have been taken off welfare and 5959 1 there's FAIR hearings, that in 90 percent of the 2 cases in the FAIR hearings, the action of taking 3 them off benefits was wrong. It shouldn't have 4 been done, and that's why we say to you that a 5 bill that addresses solely the punitive aspects, 6 that says we've got to double the sanctions, 7 triple the sanctions, remove them, the second 8 time that they fail remove them off the welfare 9 rolls, that that's not going to assist or help 10 you. 11 First of all, you may not be 12 paying those people Home Relief, but they're 13 still going to be living in our societies. 14 They're still going to require assistance, 15 whether it's other forms of social assistance, 16 whether it's medical assistance or whether it's 17 going to be the intervention of the criminal 18 justice system. These are -- these are people 19 who have a problem, many of them, not all of 20 them but many of them do, and they're also 21 people who are looking for jobs that don't exist 22 and let me -- let's take a look. 23 Why do we have this shortage of 5960 1 jobs? Not only in New York State, we have it 2 throughout our economy. One of the reasons is 3 because we've been pursuing nationally, an 4 economic system or an economic philosophy, if 5 you will, of tight money. We've -- we've seen 6 in the last few years just as this economy began 7 to stimulate some job growth, the Federal 8 Reserve five different times has raised the 9 interest rates. I think when the economic 10 history of these days, of these times are 11 written, I think the action of Greenspan and the 12 Federal Reserve is going to be seen as a 13 colossal blunder. They get the worst of all 14 possible worlds. They have shut down an 15 economic recovery that was going to create some 16 jobs and, secondly, they made everybody think, 17 gee, the dollar is weak, the American economy 18 has problems, and we've seen the run on the 19 dollar that has now occurred. 20 So they didn't even achieve what 21 everybody thought would be the result of raising 22 the interest rates which were -- would have the 23 strengthening of the dollar. But I'm not going 5961 1 to get on a long discussion of economic policy, 2 and so on, but I do it only to the extent 3 because it's undeniable that this is part of the 4 problem. 5 Senator Daly, you didn't mention 6 it at all. It's as if there's so -- all the 7 jobs out there you want to get. That isn't 8 true. Let me tell you what you see over and 9 over again in New York City. You'll be walking 10 downtown or in a neighborhood, suddenly you'll 11 see a long line outside of a store. You say, 12 What's happening here, and they'll say they've 13 got two sales people positions and these are 14 people waiting in line to try to get those 15 jobs. And they're young people, and they're 16 people sometimes you see them and they've got 17 little kids in tow. 18 People want jobs. Most people 19 want to work. We don't have an economy that 20 provides jobs. It's a terrible problem that we 21 have to face and that's really the sort of 22 issues that we're dealing with and to premise 23 the whole approach on trying to contain costs in 5962 1 your social welfare program, everybody wants to 2 contain these costs. Obviously, it's a great 3 drain. Be wonderful if we didn't have to spend 4 money for people on welfare, we didn't have to 5 spend a penny for Medicaid. Wouldn't that be 6 terrific? Obviously. Obviously you want to 7 bring down these costs, but what we're saying to 8 you is the way to bring down these costs is not 9 just saying we're going to deny basic benefits 10 that people need to live and they're living on 11 the edge under these benefits. These are not 12 great, wonderful, generous benefits. 13 As Senator Espada said, the rate 14 of cheating in these programs is very low. It's 15 a lot lower, Senator, than the people who cheat 16 on their income taxes. I wish only one or two 17 percent cheated on their income taxes, whether 18 it's tax avoidance or tax evasion. You and I 19 know we're talking of billions of dollars, 20 billions of dollars just in the state of New 21 York. I don't see you ever address that 22 problem. And that's a much more serious drain 23 on the revenue of this state than are the one or 5963 1 two percent that cheat. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Daly. 4 SENATOR DALY: Will the Senator 5 yield to a question? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Leichter yields. 8 SENATOR DALY: Have you ever put 9 a bill in to attack that problem, Senator? 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, we did. 11 Yes, Senator, we did some things on the sales 12 tax, sales tax collections. We did, Senator. 13 SENATOR DALY: Income tax. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: And it had the 15 usual success that most of my bills have had but 16 maybe, Senator, if you'll join me, we could - 17 we could do something together. 18 Senator, I think a simplistic 19 approach to the welfare problem is not going to 20 solve it. Unfortunately, in Congress and I -- I 21 blame also to some extent, I don't want to use 22 the word "blame," but I have to differ with the 23 Clinton administration that has pulled back from 5964 1 its welfare reform. You know why they pulled 2 back? Because it was going to cost too much 3 money. So they have a very modified, a very 4 modest program to try to change welfare as we 5 know it. 6 Do we have to change welfare? 7 Yes. But you're not going to do it by these 8 fiats saying we're going to remove people from 9 the rolls irrespective. Senator, that isn't 10 going to work. It's going to cost us more money 11 and we're going to be back seeing our social 12 costs rise in many different ways, and I suspect 13 that we'll see some of these other bills 14 beforehand, but that they are all premised on 15 what you have enunciated, which is that welfare 16 is a dole, that there are cheats on it, that 17 we've got to get people out of it, out of the 18 system because they're taking advantage of the 19 system and, Senator, that sort of approach - 20 and that's what we're saying on this side of the 21 aisle; that's what Senator Gold said; that's 22 what Senator Espada said -- that sort of 23 approach is punitive, and it's not going to 5965 1 work, Senator. 2 Let's look at the economic 3 reasons. Let's look at the social reasons. 4 Let's, to the extent that we can, marshal 5 resources, let's try to deal with what are the 6 real problems that have to be addressed, and 7 then you can get up here and say, "I'm doing 8 something to try to change the welfare system 9 and to get people off the rolls." 10 Your bill will not do it. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 12 recognizes Senator Dollinger. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 14 President, I think the state of New York may be 15 in trouble. I rise today to speak in favor of 16 Senator Daly's bill. Sometimes I wonder perhaps 17 when my colleague from Monroe and Niagara County 18 and I agree, that may be bad news for the rest 19 of the state. 20 But, Senator, I want to talk 21 about your bill and address what I think is a 22 very moderate change in the law that's currently 23 in existence that deals with welfare recipients, 5966 1 and I think to some extent you may have done a 2 disservice to the bill by overselling the 3 capability of this to root out the cheaters in 4 the system and, frankly, open the door for those 5 of us who share a concern which I haven't heard 6 you deny, and I don't think you oppose that 7 which make sure that we deal with the population 8 on Home Relief in a way that is somewhat 9 sensitive to whatever dilemmas they find 10 themselves in their lives, and I think your 11 bill, if you look at it carefully, could resolve 12 some of the complaints that have been made. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Dollinger, excuse the intrusion, we need a 15 mechanical delay here, to give us just 30 16 seconds and then we'll proceed. 17 Thank you. Senator Dollinger, 18 thank you for your indulgence. 19 Senator Dollinger, on the bill. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 21 Mr. President. 22 Let me ask Senator Daly if I 23 misspeak about any of the provisions of the bill 5967 1 as I describe them, please jump up and correct 2 me. First of all, there is an extensive hearing 3 process both under current law that all of the 4 changes that Senator Daly's bill would involve 5 would all be subject to a hearing process and, 6 as I understood in response to my question, the 7 indication was that in the adjudication phase of 8 these proceedings, if someone shows up and says, 9 you have to -- the Social Service Department 10 says, you have to attend training and then they 11 say, O.K., I haven't or I won't, they have the 12 right to, and then they're denied benefits. 13 They have a right to contest that denial, go to 14 an adjudication process, and will get emergency 15 relief during the period of time that the 16 adjudication is pending, so it's in a hearing 17 process, a FAIR hearing process. 18 I know there are many of us who 19 are concerned about that FAIR hearing process 20 and is it really fair. How many of those who 21 are denied actually come forward? Do they get 22 the assistance of counsel? But nonetheless this 23 bill doesn't address that process. It simply 5968 1 says we will send those decisions off to that 2 hearing process, so there's a protection built 3 in for the recipient there. 4 Two, as I understand the bill, we 5 currently have many of these sanctions on those 6 who are under the AFDC program, so women and 7 children who are getting benefits are already 8 held to the standard that we're now going to 9 apply to home relief recipients. So all we're 10 doing is taking the same process and applying it 11 to an additional category of welfare 12 recipients. 13 We already have it in place with 14 AFDC. I don't think that's a significant 15 change. We've already got it in place for a 16 large portion of those who may be getting public 17 assistance. 18 Three, the issue of disability 19 which has been talked about by my colleagues, as 20 I understand this bill, this addresses that 21 issue, because the bill says that you can be 22 required to go and obtain health care and on 23 page 2, it says you may require, the state 5969 1 Social Service Department may say to someone who 2 needs health care, someone who is disabled, 3 someone who is suffering from mental illness, 4 someone who would otherwise not be able to get 5 through the process, this bill says that the 6 Social Services Department can require that 7 person to obtain health care. 8 I think that's a good step. I 9 think that's a step that would say we're being 10 sensitive and understanding to the needs of a 11 population who comes in for public assistance. 12 We can require them to go to health care. I 13 think that's a good idea. I also think it's a 14 good idea that we're able to send them to 15 education, job training. 16 If the whole purpose of this is 17 to try to get people to educate themselves, to 18 expose themselves for job training, I think this 19 bill, under the technical wording of it, drives 20 the population that needs skills, that needs 21 talents for the next generation of jobs in this 22 state, I think this bill puts them in that 23 direction, so to those of us who are concerned 5970 1 about applicants who, because of their health or 2 their lack of skills or the dysfunctional 3 nature, are not able to understand the system, 4 this bill simply says we're going to require you 5 to go to job training, to go to health care. 6 Fourth, I think this bill -- and 7 again, Senator Daly, perhaps you can correct me 8 if I'm wrong, but this really takes an 9 unemployment insurance model and puts it into 10 application with respect to those who are on 11 public assistance. Now, if you are -- become 12 unemployed and you apply for unemployment 13 insurance, you're required to show that you're 14 out actively seeking a job or that you're taking 15 training in order to be qualified for 16 unemployment insurance. 17 If we treat those who are 18 currently employed, who lose their employment 19 and require that they go out and seek other job 20 opportunities as a requirement of continuing 21 their unemployment insurance, it seems to me 22 it's not a significant departure from that, 23 adopt the same standard for those on Home Relief 5971 1 and again we're dealing with the Home Relief, 2 we're equating it now with the process we have 3 for AFDC. 4 I do have one concern about the 5 bill, Senator, and I think it's something that 6 we always tend to do is that I think you're 7 going to see significant need for additional 8 personnel in your local Social Services 9 Department because we're giving them a bigger 10 responsibility here. We're eliminating the wil 11 ful requirement. We're changing the burden of 12 proof. I think you're going to require more 13 people in the social service application and 14 processing departments to be able to handle the 15 -- the difficulties and the issues that are 16 going to arise. 17 I think you're going to see a 18 need for additional FAIR hearings, at least in 19 the short term. That's going to increase some 20 of the costs to local service -- social service 21 agencies, and I think you've got to be prepared 22 to either fund some of those or recognize that 23 local governments are going to have to fund 5972 1 them. 2 I think the last point I'll make 3 and -- on this is I personally don't think that 4 this initiative will go the way of ending 5 welfare as we know it. As long as we have 6 poverty as we know it, I think we're going to 7 continue to have the problem of what do we do 8 with the poor? How do we handle the problem of 9 bringing the poor into the middle class? How do 10 we provide those incentives, provide the 11 encouragement, provide the support, provide, as 12 Senator Espada properly pointed out, the dignity 13 to allow a transition into the middle class and 14 into the -- into the, for lack of a better term, 15 the composite of the American dream? 16 My hope is, and I think this bill 17 is a minor change in the law, I don't think it's 18 going to root out all the cheats. I don't think 19 it will significantly punish those in our - 20 unfortunate persons in sour society, 21 dysfunctional, don't have training, don't have 22 skill. 23 I see it as a minor modification 5973 1 of our current system, something analogous to 2 unemployment insurance. I think it's a step in 3 a proper direction. I think we should keep our 4 eye on it if this does pass and does become law 5 to see what the impact is, to continue to 6 monitor the impacts but at least as it's 7 currently drafted, at least as I see it working, 8 I see this as a small step and one that's 9 appropriate under the current situation, one 10 that I do not think will, frankly, lead to 11 either the great hopes that some of its 12 advocates may have nor create the great jobs 13 that those of us, those on this side of the 14 aisle who favor it see. 15 So I think this isn't a bad way 16 to go. I'm going to vote in favor. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 18 recognizes Senator DeFrancisco. 19 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: What I'm 20 going to speak on is these bills in general, so 21 I won't be repetitive today. 22 I've mentioned it several 23 occasions on the floor that there is only a 5974 1 finite number of dollars that can be spent in 2 the state of New York or in any other state, and 3 when you see a trend over these last five years 4 where education spending was equal to social 5 services spending at about 27 percent and over 6 that period education spending as a percentage 7 of the state budget goes down to around 20 8 percent and social services up to 38 percent, 9 something has got to happen. 10 You can not allow the spiral to 11 continue for two reasons: Number one, you're 12 affecting much needed programs such as 13 educational programs where money should be spent 14 first, in my judgment, and secondly, you're 15 creating a spiral that is going to eat up every 16 other aspect of government and there's other 17 needs. 18 In addition, you can't keep 19 expanding the pot. People in this room keep 20 talking about we've got to create jobs, we've 21 got to get people into productive work. We 22 can't let people languish without jobs, and 23 that's the real problem. Well, ladies and 5975 1 gentlemen, jobs don't just -- jobs aren't just 2 created by government. Jobs are created by an 3 economy and, if you keep taxing those productive 4 members of society more and more every year, 5 then jobs leave the area and the welfare system 6 gets worse and worse and worse. 7 So what's happening today, there 8 are 19 bills, and the 19 bills are 19 different 9 ideas on how we might attack the problem. For 10 anyone to stand up in this room and say, I'm 11 against all 19 because they're mean-spirited, I 12 don't think is being open-minded at all. If 13 these 19 aren't any good, at least some of them 14 got to be. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Gold, why do you rise? 18 SENATOR GOLD: Would the 19 gentleman yield to one question? 20 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Sure. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 yields. 23 SENATOR GOLD: I know that you 5976 1 know, with legislative hassles towards the end 2 of the session many of us are walking in and 3 out, and -- but are you aware of the fact that 4 some have already passed unanimously? 5 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes, but 6 I'm also aware of the fact that Senator Espada 7 said he's going to vote against all of the bills 8 today, and that's what I was referring to. 9 Now, it's obvious that the system 10 that we have created is not working, and it's 11 not democratic. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Espada, why do you rise? 14 SENATOR ESPADA: Just -- would 15 the gentleman yield to one quick question? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 DeFrancisco, will you yield? 18 SENATOR ESPADA: Will you be 19 voting in favor of all 19 today? 20 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Probably, 21 yes. 22 SENATOR ESPADA: Probably, yes? 23 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Probably, 5977 1 yes. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 DeFrancisco, on the bill. 4 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: The package 5 of bills that we have today is not a cure-all to 6 every problem in the social services system, but 7 they're good ideas that deserve at least a 8 chance because what we've done by recognizing 9 the generational needs for social services is 10 that the system doesn't work. You can't have a 11 situation where it is economically more 12 advantageous for someone to be on the system 13 than be taking an entry level job, and that's 14 precisely what happens as we speak. 15 The system now makes it more 16 advantageous for someone to obtain the basic 17 benefit, obtain the Medicaid benefit, the health 18 benefit, and you're in better shape. 19 Now, anybody that's got a choice 20 is probably going to take the safer choice and 21 that's what's happening. So the point I'm 22 trying to make is that there are only a finite 23 number of dollars. The system is out of 5978 1 control. We need to reform the system and these 2 are 19 ideas and hopefully some of these ideas 3 will work, and I believe they're all at least 4 worth trying, so that we will have the funds 5 needed for those truly in need that don't have 6 any options, and also so that there will be an 7 economy in this state that will generate the 8 jobs that are real jobs for those that want 9 them. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 11 any other Senator wishing to speak on this bill? 12 Senator Daly to close. 13 SENATOR DALY: To close, Mr. 14 President, just briefly too because we've 15 discussed this in depth. Senator Waldon raised 16 a point before on the constitutionality and, 17 Senator, I just wanted to read to you, my staff 18 found this after our discussion and in the case 19 of Alexander vs. Levine in 1972, the decision 20 was there was no constitutional right for those 21 who are able to be gainfully employed to receive 22 public assistance, and that's what this bill 23 deals with, those who -- who can be gainfully 5979 1 employed. 2 Two more points, Mr. President. 3 This bill was recommended to me, the idea came 4 from a case worker in Niagara County who, again, 5 saw people trying to beat the system. Mr. 6 President, I will repeat for the last time, this 7 bill is aimed at those people who try to beat 8 the system, who are taking advantage of our 9 system, of our welfare system which is out there 10 to help those who need help. The bill is not 11 intended to hurt those people who really need 12 the help. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Secretary will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Waldon to explain his vote. 22 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 23 much, Mr. President. 5980 1 Some interesting points were 2 raised in the latter part of the discussion and 3 I would like to, in my own way, respond to one 4 that Senator DeFrancisco raised. 5 As many of you know from the few 6 years that I've been here, I've spoken about 7 Patchen Avenue, the block I grew up on in 8 Brooklyn, and I don't know if I've ever said it 9 in this chamber, I know I've said it in other 10 places. Everyone in that neighborhood was poor 11 and many of us were on welfare. 12 I'm going to tell you about a few 13 of the guys who did very well, and the reason I 14 believe they did very well, which should 15 hopefully give us some food for thought in terms 16 of the kinds of things we do here. You may have 17 heard me comment at some time in the past that 18 in that cold water flat that I grew up in and 19 everyone lived in on that block, they were all 20 cold water flats, that my first experience with 21 unions occurred because the rats and the roaches 22 were so organized we thought they had a dues 23 check-off system and at least shop stewards. I 5981 1 mean it was a real attack when you went down to 2 the basement to put your garbage out. 3 But from that neighborhood and 4 from welfare, Dick Gaines, All-American Seton 5 Hall; Lennie Wilkins, currently the coach of the 6 Seattle -- not the Seattle, the Atlanta Hawks, 7 who is my son's godfather, and I'm his 8 daughter's godfather; Malcolm Dunn, one of the 9 wealthiest black men in the Northeast, Dunn & 10 Son Maintenance. And Rodney, I won't tell you 11 Rodney's full name because Rodney did what a lot 12 of people have anticipated in terms of those on 13 welfare doing, he didn't become an out-and-out 14 criminal, but he became someone who lives on the 15 edge. He makes an enormous sum of money. He's 16 the greatest ticket scalper in the world. 17 They've even made a movie about him. 18 All of those kids were on 19 welfare. The difference is we had something to 20 do with our spare time and that was to play 21 basketball. Everyone that I have mentioned was 22 immersed in a basketball program somewhere, 23 played for his or her high school team, went on 5982 1 to college and played ball, and I believe it was 2 the discipline of the round ball that kept us 3 out of trouble because in that same block there 4 are guys that, as a police officer, I saw as 5 four-time losers. There are guys who died from 6 ODs from heroin; there are guys who died at the 7 hands of police officers because they became 8 stick-up artists, but the guys who had something 9 to do in the evenings and on Saturdays and on 10 Sundays with Father Mannion at Holy Rosary who 11 kept us all busy, ended up being O.K. because 12 there was a program somewhere to keep us busy. 13 I applaud the concern about the 14 finite sum of money, but I challenge us to 15 realize that idle hands are the devil's play 16 ground and if you want kids to extricate 17 themselves from such meager backgrounds, you 18 have to give them something productive to do. 19 Basketball isn't the panacea, but certainly 20 solid activities with the right kinds of support 21 systems and the right kinds of role models can 22 make a difference. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: How do 5983 1 you vote? 2 SENATOR WALDON: In that regard, 3 I would like to close and just say that I'm 4 voting on this particular bill in the no. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Waldon in the negative. 7 Secretary will announce the 8 results. 9 Senator Espada to explain his 10 vote. 11 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, Mr. 12 President. 13 Just in summation, I don't want 14 to be misunderstood. We have shunned most 15 welfare recipients as it gets people who know 16 the system. We should revamp the entire welfare 17 system. We hate the present welfare system. It 18 is not cost-effective. It destroys lives. It 19 destroys families. It's destroyed generations 20 of people. 21 What we have to not want and what 22 we can't start off with is a false premise and 23 that's what we have here is this framework that 5984 1 the welfare system is a system that's comprised 2 of fraudulent lazy people that do not want to 3 work, and that's why I will vote against any 4 bill that emerges out of that framework. 5 We have, in our obsession to deal 6 with a few recalcitrant clients, recipients, a 7 bill here that will place a permanent ban on 8 people that may at some point be in need of our 9 entitlements. This, in my view, would violate 10 the constitutional guarantees that we all have 11 sworn to uphold. 12 I, in voting for this, will not 13 support that. I do not support the bashing that 14 continues to predominate here and would ask my 15 colleagues to do the same, vote against this 16 bill. Thank you. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Espada is recorded in the negative. 19 Announce the results. 20 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 21 the negative on Calendar Number 289 are Senators 22 Connor, Espada, Gold, Gonzalez, Leichter, 23 Markowitz, Mendez, Montgomery, Ohrenstein, 5985 1 Paterson, Santiago, Smith, Stavisky and Waldon. 2 Ayes 42, nays 14. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 4 is passed. 5 Senator Present? 6 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 7 would you recognize Senator Cook. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Cook. 10 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, I'd 11 like to return to the order of motions and 12 resolutions and ask that Resolution Number 4136 13 be read. Read it in its entirety, please. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 15 return to motions and resolutions. 16 The Secretary will read 17 privileged resolution at the desk, 4136 in its 18 entirety. 19 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 20 Resolution, by Senator Cook, honoring Joyce G. 21 Valenti upon her being selected New York State 22 Teacher of the Year. 23 WHEREAS, it is the sense of this 5986 1 legislative body that those who, by their 2 actions, exemplify the very best in human nature 3 deserve recognition; 4 This legislative body recognizes 5 the fundamental importance of education and 6 educators as it and they relate to the constant 7 improvement of our state and nation; 8 Joyce G. Valenti, a biology 9 teacher at the Windham-Ashland-Jewett Central 10 School in Windham, Greene County, New York has 11 been selected New York State Teacher of the 12 Year; 13 Joyce G. Valenti began her 14 teaching career at the Windham-Ashland-Jewett 15 Central School 17 years ago; 16 Joyce G. Valenti has incorporated 17 innovative methods in her teaching throughout 18 her distinguished career, including the 19 implementation of the Vinegar Factory, a 20 student-operated business whose profits support 21 scientific field trips for students, also 22 includes the establishment of a peer mentor 23 program which provides a high school buddy for 5987 1 at-risk elementary students; 2 Joyce G. Valenti was nominated 3 for this honor by teachers, parents, students, 4 the school superintendent, the school principal 5 and the superintendent of the Windham-Ashland 6 Jewett Central School District; 7 Joyce G. Valenti has, since she 8 was 14 years old, desired to become a biology 9 teacher and live in Windham; 10 Joyce G. Valenti has pursued this 11 goal by graduating from St. Catherine Academy 12 and summa cum laude from SUNY-Cortland. 13 Joyce G. Valenti, with her 14 husband John who also teaches science at 15 Windham-Ashland-Jewett school and coaches Little 16 League baseball, are active in their community 17 through the Ski Windham ski and courtesy 18 patrols, the chamber of commerce and the 19 playground committee; 20 Joyce G. Valenti and John M. 21 Valenti and their two daughters, Serena and 22 Genevieve, are well respected in their community 23 for their compassion, integrity, caring and 5988 1 diligence; 2 NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED 3 that this legislative body pause in its 4 deliberations to recognize and honor Joyce G. 5 Valenti upon her selection as Teacher of the 6 Year and for all her efforts to better the lives 7 of the young people in her class and for her 8 effort to better the lives of all residents of 9 the Windham area, and 10 BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that 11 copies of this resolution, suitably engrossed, 12 be transmitted to Dr. Joseph Bernita, 13 Superintendent of the Windham-Ashland-Jewett 14 School District, and Joyce G. Valenti, the New 15 York State Teacher of the Year. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 17 recognizes Senator Cook. 18 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, it 19 impressed me as I was reading the accomplishment 20 -- accomplishments of Joyce Valenti that, as we 21 had looked at some of the discussion recently of 22 what good education ought to be, that we, in 23 fact, found it personified in Joyce Valenti and 5989 1 in the things that she has been doing not 2 because somebody told her to do it, but because 3 she, in her own inventiveness, understood that 4 children need to be motivated, that they need to 5 be directed, that in the process that they be 6 enabled to accomplish things on their own and 7 that in that process they learn. 8 I was impressed when I spoke with 9 her and complimented her upon being selected as 10 the teacher of the year, that her response was, 11 Well, the children did it. And that's -- that's 12 exactly the kind of attitude that you would 13 expect from someone like Joyce Valenti, because 14 obviously the -- yes, the children did it, but 15 the children did it because they had that kind 16 of guidance and that kind of inspiration that 17 comes from an excellent, excellent teacher. 18 Not only is her guidance very 19 personal, but she's an extremely creative 20 individual and, when you read this -- and I 21 don't know whether everybody picked up on this 22 as it was being read -- but what they did was 23 the students actually created a business in 5990 1 which they are producing a -- a vinegar which is 2 sold in stores, being sold as far away as New 3 York City and indeed in stores in Puerto Rico. 4 Not only do the children involve themselves in 5 the production and, therefore, learn the 6 processes of biology and the manufacturing 7 process, but they also learn the business of how 8 to do cost accounting and how to do sales, and 9 how to keep track of the money. 10 It is an amazing project, and it 11 doesn't happen just one year, it continues. It 12 continues because Joyce Valenti enables it to 13 continue from year to year. 14 And the other thing that I also 15 found that she had done that is very insight 16 ful, is that she has begun this mentoring 17 program where older students in the school work 18 with younger students. As someone who, at one 19 time in my life, attended a one-room school 20 house, I remember well that was what happened. 21 The sixth graders taught the first graders to 22 read. We kind of lot that when we went to 23 bigger schools, but now that's been reinvented 5991 1 if you will, in Windham at least by Joyce 2 Valenti, because now the high school students 3 actually go as big brothers and sisters to work 4 with the children in the elementary school. 5 So, Mr. President, I'm very 6 honored to have with us today, Joyce Valenti, 7 and her -- her children, who are Serena and 8 Genevieve and her husband, John, and with them 9 is Walter LeBaron who is from the state 10 Education Department and which -- who runs the 11 Teacher of the Year program. 12 But we're particularly pleased to 13 have the Valenti family with us and very honored 14 that you're here, and I would ask you, Mr. 15 President, if you would greet them in behalf of 16 the house. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 question is on the resolution. All those in 19 favor of voting in favor of the resolution 20 signify by saying aye. 21 (Response of "Aye.") 22 Opposed nay. 23 (There was no response. ) 5992 1 The resolution is unanimously 2 adopted. 3 Joyce Valenti, it's my pleasure 4 to welcome you here to the Senate today, you and 5 your husband and your family, and to 6 congratulate you on being selected as the New 7 York State Teacher for the Year. 8 Senator Cook has said it very 9 well. Certainly Senator Marino, if he were 10 here, would say it again and all of the members 11 of the Senate certainly take great pride in what 12 you and people in your profession do. As you 13 sat here, I know, listened to the debate, I'm 14 sure that you acknowledge that there are many 15 different capabilities and talents of people in 16 this chamber, and that most of that comes from 17 people like yourself who allow us to accede to 18 our capacities. 19 So we thank you on behalf of all 20 the members here. We certainly thank you for 21 doing such a great job and for taking the time 22 to rise to become the very best. 23 (Applause). 5993 1 Senator Present. 2 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you 3 recognize Senator Mendez. 4 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 6 recognizes Senator Mendez. 7 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. Thank you, Senator Present. 9 Mr. President, I have a 10 privileged resolution on the desk, and I would 11 appreciated if the title would be read and then 12 for it to be approved. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 14 a privileged resolution at the desk. I will ask 15 the Secretary to read the title. 16 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 17 Resolution, by Senator Mendez, commending Gloria 18 E. Quinones upon the occasion of her retirement 19 from the Legal Aid Society. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 21 of is on the resolution. All those in favor 22 signify by saying aye. 23 (Response of "Aye.") 5994 1 Opposed nay. 2 (There was no response. ) 3 The resolution is adopted. 4 Senator -- Senator Tully. While 5 we're still on motion and resolutions. 6 SENATOR TULLY: On page 30, I 7 offer the following amendments to Calendar 1315, 8 Print Number 8146-A, and ask that said bill 9 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 11 Amendments are received and adopted. Bill will 12 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 13 Senator Padavan, you have a 14 motion? 15 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President, 16 I offer the following amendments to Calendar 17 Number 1314, Senate Print Number 8102, and ask 18 that said bill retain its place on the Third 19 Reading Calendar. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 21 Amendments are received and adopted. Bill will 22 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 23 Senator Wright. 5995 1 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, 2 on behalf of Senator Velella, on page number 7, 3 I offer the following amendments to Calendar 4 Number 352, Senate Print Number 6708, and ask 5 that said bill retain its place on the Third 6 Reading Calendar. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 8 Amendments are received and adopted. Bill will 9 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 10 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, 11 on behalf of Senator Seward, on page number 38, 12 I offer the following amendments to Calendar 13 Number 268, Senate Print Number 6741, and ask 14 that said bill retain its place on the Third 15 Reading Calendar. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 17 Amendments are received and adopted. Bill will 18 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 19 SENATOR WRIGHT: And on said 20 bill, Mr. President I request that the star be 21 removed. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sponsor's 23 star will be removed. 5996 1 SENATOR WRIGHT: And on behalf of 2 Senator Levy, please remove the sponsor's star 3 on Calendar Number 537. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sponsor's 5 star is removed on Calendar 537. 6 Senator Holland. 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 8 on behalf of Senator Holland, on page 4, I offer 9 the following amendments to Calendar 206, Print 10 Number 4797-B and ask that said bill retain its 11 place on third reading. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 13 Amendments received and adopted. The bill will 14 retain its place on the third Reading Calendar. 15 Senator Holland. 16 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 17 on behalf of Senator Bruno, on page 3w, I offer 18 the following amendments to Calendar Number 19 1346, Senate Print Number 8537-A, and ask that 20 the said bill retain its place on the Third 21 Reading Calendar. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 23 Amendments to Calendar 1346 are received and 5997 1 adopted, bill will retain its place on the Third 2 Reading Calendar. 3 The Chair recognizes Senator 4 Johnson for a motion. 5 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 6 on behalf of Senator Kuhl, I'd like to call up 7 his bill, Print Number 3336-A, recalled from the 8 Assembly which is now at the desk. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will read. 11 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Kuhl, 12 Senate Bill Number 3336-A, an act to amend the 13 Agriculture and Markets Law. 14 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 15 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 16 bill was passed. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 18 will call the roll on reconsideration. 19 (The Secretary called the roll on 20 reconsideration. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 22 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 23 I now offer the following amendments. 5998 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 2 Amendments are received and adopted. 3 Senator Johnson. 4 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 5 on behalf of Senator Lack, I wish to call up his 6 bill, Print Number 7148-A, recalled from the 7 Assembly which is now at the desk. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 9 will read. 10 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Lack, 11 Senate Bill Number 7148-A, an act to amend the 12 Estates, Powers and Trusts Law. 13 SENATOR JOHNSON: I now move to 14 reconsider the vote by which this bill was 15 passed. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 17 will call the roll on reconsideration. 18 (The Secretary called the roll on 19 reconsideration. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 21 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, I 22 now offer the following amendments. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 5999 1 Amendments are received and adopted. 2 Senator Holland. 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 4 I wish to call up Senator Spano's bill, Print 5 Number 8590, recalled from the Assembly which is 6 now at the desk. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read. 9 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Spano, 10 Senate bill 8590, authorizing the city of 11 Yonkers to discontinue as park lands certain 12 lands. 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: I now move to 14 reconsider the vote by which this bill was 15 passed. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 17 will call the roll on reconsideration. 18 (The Secretary called the roll on 19 reconsideration. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 21 SENATOR HOLLAND: I now offer the 22 following amendments. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 6000 1 Amendments received and adopted. 2 Senator Holland. 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 4 I wish to call up Senator Skelos' bill, Print 5 Number 6523-A, recalled from the Assembly which 6 is now at the desk. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read. 9 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 10 Skelos, Senate Bill 6523-A, an act to amend the 11 Education Law. 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: I now move to 13 reconsider the vote by which this bill was 14 passed. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 16 will call the roll on reconsideration. 17 (The Secretary called the roll on 18 reconsideration.) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 21 I now offer the following amendments. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 23 Amendments are received and adopted. 6001 1 Senator Holland. 2 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 3 I now wish to call up Senator Maltese's bill, 4 Print Number 7444, recalled from the Assembly 5 which is now at the desk. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 7 will read. 8 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 9 Maltese, Senate Bill Number 7444, an act to 10 amend the Criminal Procedure Law. 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: I now move to 12 reconsider the vote by which this bill was 13 passed. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will call the roll on reconsideration. 16 (The Secretary called the roll on 17 reconsideration. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 19 SENATOR HOLLAND: I now offer the 20 following amendments. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 22 Amendments are received and adopted. 23 Senator Present. 6002 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Return to 2 regular order. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4 will continue to call the controversial calendar 5 beginning with Calendar Number 702. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 702, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 3205-A, 8 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside 10 temporarily. 11 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay aside 12 temporarily. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 14 bill aside temporarily. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 704, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 17 4368-A, an act to amend the Social Services Law 18 and the Education Law. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Holland, an explanation has been asked for by 22 Senator Gold. 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, Mr. 6003 1 President. This is a modified LearnFare bill. 2 It is the Maryland LearnFare bill. It is a 3 carrot and stick approach as opposed to the 4 Wisconsin bill. 5 What it does is encourage - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Holland, excuse me for just a minute. Ladies 8 and gentlemen, we have to have some quiet in 9 this chamber. There are 15 bills left on this 10 active list. There are 50 bills on the 11 remaining active list and, if we're going to 12 allow our colleagues to speak and give them the 13 respect that you all demand, we're going to have 14 to remain quiet. Thank you. 15 Senator Holland. 16 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 17 what it does is encourage prenatal care to the 18 increase in public assistance benefits for 19 pregnant recipients receiving prenatal care, 20 plus it promotes primary preventive care for 21 children on public assistance, and it promotes 22 improved nutrition and fosters school attendance 23 by reducing the monthly grant by $25 for each 6004 1 child that does not go to school who is on 2 welfare. 3 And let me just say a couple 4 comments about what has been said in the first 5 debate. Senator Gold said in some of his 6 comments, and I quote, people out there who are 7 under-educated, and that's exactly what this 8 bill and the Wisconsin bill want to do. We need 9 to put more effort into educating the people out 10 there and getting them off, working their way 11 off of the welfare system. 12 I think there were similar 13 comments by Senator Leichter, and I am told that 14 Senator Espada said that no one visits his 15 district. I did at his invitation visit his 16 district and we visited two schools in the city, 17 in the Bronx. One of them was called the Adlai 18 Stevenson High School; had, I believe -- and he 19 can correct me if I'm wrong -- 4500 students. 20 It appeared in our visit, and I 21 think it was somewhat unanticipated by the 22 school, to be a clean school, an organized 23 school. We went to a class for the more 6005 1 improved student, the better students. We saw a 2 list on the wall of 150 kids who were going to 3 college. So there are kids who are doing very 4 well in that school and we talked to the kids 5 and, unfortunately, there are 60 percent of the 6 people of Rockland County come from the Bronx. 7 These kids echoed the same thing that the people 8 in Rockland County did. We want to get out of 9 the Bronx as soon as we can. Isn't that a 10 terrible thing? That's what's happening to the 11 Bronx. They're leaving as soon as they can be 12 educated; kids are leaving as soon as they can. 13 But while we were there, the 14 principal of the school found out we were there 15 and asked us to come down to the office, and my 16 question to him was, what is the graduation rate 17 in four years of the students in your school, 18 and he was relatively proud to say the gradua 19 tion rate in Adlai Stevenson High School in four 20 years was 18 to 20 percent. 21 I think that is terrible. That's 22 disgusting. We're just not doing the right 23 thing, all of us, but particularly the people 6006 1 from the city of New York. After that visit I 2 wrote to the city school system and asked them 3 for the printout of their graduation rates. The 4 average graduation rate for the high schools in 5 the city of New York in four years is 43.5 6 percent. That's disgusting. That is 7 disgusting. This is to try to turn that 8 around. 9 Let me tell you what the 10 graduation rates are upstate. They're 90, 95, 11 98, 97. We are throwing away generations of 12 young people by not giving them the right kind 13 of education. This bill encourages young people 14 to go to school. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Waldon, why do you rise? 17 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 18 will the Senator yield to a question? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Holland, do you yield? 21 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Holland yields. 6007 1 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, what is 2 the amount of money proportionately received by 3 the City schools versus the amount of money 4 received by the school systems outside of the 5 City, of the total finite amount? 6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Sir, I don't 7 know. Maybe you know. You can tell us. But I 8 don't think that's the problem totally. That 9 may be part of the problem, but that's not the 10 total problem. The problem is the parent 11 involvement, the problem is the political 12 involvement in the city school system. It is 13 not administered, managed correctly, and it's 14 been proven over years. It's not just the 15 money. It's the way the system is handled. 16 SENATOR WALDON: Would the 17 Senator be kind enough to yield to perhaps 18 another question? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, 20 Senator Holland continues to yield. 21 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, what is 22 the amount of money per welfare family in the 23 City or outside of the City for food? 6008 1 SENATOR HOLLAND: Well, with food 2 stamps are about 150 and we're not positive on 3 this, Senator, and the total is about 700. 4 SENATOR WALDON: And if I may 5 continue, Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Holland continues to yield. 8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Holland, you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Holland continues to yield. 14 SENATOR WALDON: And that is for 15 what amount of time to purchase food? 16 SENTOR HOLLAND: Monthly, 17 monthly. Monthly. 18 SENATOR WALDON: Monthly, and if 19 I may continue, Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Holland continues to yield. 22 SENATOR WALDON: And what impact 23 do you think the meager budget of $150 per month 6009 1 for food would be hurt by the reduction of $25 2 -- is that correct? 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, that is 4 correct. 5 SENATOR WALDON: -- per child 6 from a family's AFDC grant for families who have 7 failed to obtain -- I'm reading the whole 8 thing. 9 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, it's $25 a 10 month, you're correct. 11 SENATOR WALDON: Isn't that a bit 12 callous? 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: But, Senator, 14 isn't it more important that we have the kids go 15 to school? Isn't it more important that they 16 graduate? Is our system working? Has our system 17 worked when you only have 43 percent 18 graduation? The Governor talks about his great 19 City schools. You know what the top graduation 20 rate in the schools he talks about is? It's 21 about 77 percent. 22 We're not doing it right. I 23 don't know how you can stand there or anybody, 6010 1 me, anybody and say we're doing it right and we 2 shouldn't try to change it. 3 SENATOR WALDON: If I may 4 continue, Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Holland, you continue to yield? 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 8 SENATOR WALDON: First, let me 9 suffer, not to correct you but to make a 10 statement. I didn't say we're doing it right. 11 I did not make that statement. I'm merely 12 asking you questions. 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: I agree. 14 SENATOR WALDON: Based upon what 15 you propose for us to consider. It just seems 16 to me, Senator, and I will ask you a question, 17 that taking $25 away from a family which may 18 already be suffering in terms of its ability to 19 survive, not live well, survive -- the last time 20 I went to a restaurant was last night with my 21 wife. We had, because this place has a 22 specialty of split pea soup -- it's on Northern 23 Boulevard and Clearview Expressway -- both of us 6011 1 had bowls of split pea soup. I had a sardine 2 sandwich with a heavy slice of onion -- you're 3 too far away from me to get the benefit of that 4 -- and she had a salad. $22.50. I had a diet 5 Coke; she had a diet Coke. Two people, one 6 meal, in a diner that's a little sophisticated. 7 Now, to take that as an example 8 of what it costs to eat and to compare it with 9 $150 per month as a stipend for food and to say 10 that you're going to take $25 away from that 11 family because a child who may be already 12 hungry, who may be already under-clothed, who 13 may not feel good about himself because his 14 stuff is not as good as everyone else's in this 15 egocentric -- egocentric society that we live 16 in, in my opinion, is a bit more punitive. 17 So now I ask the question. You 18 said we may not be doing it right, but we have 19 to do something. Couldn't you pull this bill 20 and you and I and others of like spirit sit down 21 and try to create a mechanism that will do it 22 better than this which seems to be, in my 23 opinion, overly punitive to those who are least 6012 1 able to defend themselves? 2 SENATOR HOLLAND: A number of 3 things come to mind, Senator. First thing is I 4 have to tell you that if they -- if the $25 is 5 taken away from them for a month, if they go 6 back to school and stay in school for 95 percent 7 of the time for the next three months they can 8 get that $25 back and they can earn that $25 9 back, and that's great because that's what we 10 want them to do. We want them to go to school 11 and that's really what the purpose of the bill 12 is. 13 If they don't go to school, if 14 young people don't get their GED or their high 15 school education or better, what's going to 16 happen? They're not going to be able to compete 17 in the economy. They're not going to be able to 18 get good jobs. You're not going to get decent 19 industry to come into the Bronx because the 20 labor pool is not there, and to say that we 21 shouldn't do this, well, what have we been doing 22 for 20, 25, 30 years? We haven't solved any 23 problems. 6013 1 This is an attempt just to get 2 young people to go to school. That's all we're 3 trying to do and it's good for them and it's 4 good for the economy, and it's good for the 5 family. 6 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 7 may I ask the Senator another question? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Holland, you continue to yield? 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, certainly. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 yields. 13 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, I've 14 read from time to time books on motivation and 15 the kind of motivation that your bill is an 16 example of is negative motivation. Could we not 17 have some positive motivation in legislation of 18 this nature? By that, I mean could you not in 19 your genius create a bill that would say, if you 20 go to school, or if you do what you're supposed 21 to do, we will improve your condition as opposed 22 to only saying, if you slip on the banana peel 23 of poverty, and fall through the chasm of 6014 1 despondency that we will continue to push you 2 down, as opposed to lifting you up? Couldn't we 3 do something like that some time somewhere 4 somehow? 5 SENTOR HOLLAND: Senator, I think 6 that what we've done over the last three 7 generations is negative motivation. We have 8 kept people dependent on welfare. That's 9 negative motivation. That's not solving 10 anything. They don't have any responsibility, 11 any good feeling about themselves. But let me 12 read you about the report from Maryland. 13 According to a report from the 14 Maryland Initiative released in September of 15 1993, nearly 90 percent of Maryland AFDC 16 families met the preventive health and tenants 17 requirement of the preventive detention 18 initiative. 95 percent of the families met the 19 requirement after three months. Since the 20 program began there has been at least an 21 increase of 42 percent in the periodic number of 22 screenings and only two percent of the families 23 continued after the sanction is over. 6015 1 This is a good idea. It keeps 2 people -- it encourage people to go to school 3 and also asks them to come into the health 4 screening, prenatal screening, et cetera. 5 SENATOR WALDON: Last question if 6 I may, Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Holland, you continue to yield? 9 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Holland yields. 12 SENATOR WALDON: Are you from 13 Maryland originally? 14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. How did 15 you know that? 16 SENATOR WALDON: You told me, and 17 I don't forget, and you have more than those of 18 us who are in this chamber a personal awareness 19 of Maryland undoubtedly in terms of the people, 20 the geography, the cities, the building 21 structures, the life style, the pace, the 22 openness, do you not? 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Well, it's been 6016 1 at least 30 years since I've been there and it's 2 changed an awful lot but I guess yes, the answer 3 to your question is that's correct. 4 SENATOR WALDON: In that period 5 of time, if I may, Mr. President, you readily 6 identified with Maryland and could draw 7 meaningful comparisons to New York City, not New 8 York State, New York City. Isn't there a great 9 difference in the social fabric of Maryland as 10 you knew it and New York City as you knew it 30 11 years ago and as you know it now? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: I gets to some 13 of degree, Senator, but also if you look at 14 downtown Baltimore you have very similar 15 situation as you have, if you have been there, 16 you know that, very similar situation as you do 17 in the city of New York, any major city, but 18 Baltimore particularly. 19 SENATOR WALDON: Last question, 20 if I may. 21 SENATOR HOLLAND: You said that 22 last time. 23 SENATOR WALDON: I know, and I 6017 1 made a mistake. Even Al Waldon makes mistakes, 2 Senator Holland. Believe it or not, Senator 3 Paterson. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Holland continues to yield. 6 SENATOR WALDON: Are you 7 absolutely unequivocally opposed to -- this is 8 an unfair question, and I'll admit to that - 9 creating legislation which would positively 10 reward people to extricate themselves from the 11 welfare cycle as opposed to always punishing 12 them for being unfortunately on welfare? 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, but I think 14 this rewards them with a better life and a 15 better future, but this bill doesn't only 16 LearnFare, Senator, but it does give money for 17 prenatal care and family screening, et cetera, 18 so it is a carrot and stick as you suggested. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Waldon on the bill. 21 SENATOR WALDON: No, I'm not 22 going to do that. I just wanted to thank you 23 for your indulgence and thank Senator Holland 6018 1 for his kind explanation of this bill. 2 Thank you, Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 4 recognizes Senator Espada. 5 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. 7 Would the sponsor yield to a 8 couple of questions? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Holland, would you yield for a couple questions 11 from Senator Espada? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 yields. 15 SENATOR ESPADA: First let me take 16 this occasion on the record to say that I 17 really, truly appreciated Senator Holland coming 18 down to my district; we had a great time. I was 19 a gracious host; I paid for the hamburgers. 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: That's true. 21 SENATOR ESPADA: And it definitely 22 was a learning experience for both of us, but we 23 certainly got very different messages out of 6019 1 this thing, but a little bit about that later. 2 For now, I have a copy of a 3 report here to the legislature on the attendance 4 improvement and drop-out prevention program. And 5 it is one of, you know, our state's efforts to 6 deal with the attendance problem and improve the 7 outcomes, the poor outcomes that you mentioned, 8 and that -- that particular -- this particular 9 program has 67 percent of the affected school 10 districts, both upstate and downstate, think 11 it's a great idea, and it features counseling, 12 home visits, attendance, outreach, parenting 13 workshops, staff development at the school where 14 paraprofessionals and teachers and others are 15 involved and engaged in resolving this problem, 16 coordinating with other community facilities and 17 dealing with transition periods with the -- the 18 population in question, chiefly the adolescent, 19 the late adolescent stage. It seems to be 20 working, this approach, and my question to you 21 is why go to this approach, this what I will 22 refer to as the LearnFare approach, the more 23 punitive approach when we have AFDC children on 6020 1 average attending school 169 days out of the 2 year and non-AFDC children attending school 172 3 days out of the year, a difference of four days 4 per annum? So the question is, what -- why are 5 we doing this, if we have an approach that deals 6 with the features that I mentioned - 7 counselling, home visits, et cetera, and now 8 we're seeking to be punitive because of the 9 four-day differential on average? 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Just briefly, 11 give me your question once again, Senator. 12 SENATOR ESPADA: I'm sorry. I 13 couldn't hear you. 14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Could you 15 briefly just give me your question once again. 16 SENATOR ESPADA: Yes, the question 17 has to do with the reports on the attendance 18 improvement, drop-outs and -- the attendance 19 improvement, outreach, staff development, et 20 cetera, at the schools to deal with this problem 21 population that we all want to do good things 22 for, and it seems to be working in that 67 23 percent of the school districts upstate and 6021 1 downstate think this is a great idea. 2 So my question is, given the fact 3 that there's only a four-day differential on 4 average between AFDC children and non-AFDC 5 children, why leap to this kind of approach when 6 we have an approach that seems to be working and 7 is approved by those that we serve? 8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, I 9 don't have any problem with this program going 10 on. I do have a problem with a lot of programs 11 that this state, the federal government and 12 other governments have done just throwing money 13 at new programs that don't solve any problems, 14 and I don't really think they have solved a 15 great deal of problems in the city of New York 16 when the average graduation rate is 43.5 percent 17 and some of the schools are 3.7 percent in four 18 years, and that's true of the second school we 19 went to. So I don't have a problem with that. 20 This one I want to try. It's 21 apparently doing -- being successful in Wiscon 22 sin and Maryland. I would like to encourage 23 young people to go to school. I don't want to 6022 1 take the money away from the families, but I do 2 think it's important that they get a high school 3 education or a GED. If you have a better system 4 that can show me improvement, I mean major 5 improvement, some improvement, actual 6 improvement, then I -- I'll do that too, but I 7 don't see why we can't do both of them 8 together. 9 SENATOR ESPADA: Mr. President, 10 if I may pursue this. 11 SENATOR KUHL: Senator Holland 12 continues to yield? He yields. 13 SENATOR ESPADA: Yes, just to 14 stay with LearnFare in Wisconsin, there is an 15 analysis that went on there at the University of 16 Wisconsin, Professor Lois -- Lois Quinn found it 17 that LearnFare there had no positive impact, in 18 fact 28 percent of the sanctioned youngsters - 19 I just want to get this correct, only 28 percent 20 of the sanctioned youngsters went back to school 21 within a two-month period, so it seems that 22 rather than driving them back into the school 23 system, it kind of permanently kept them out of 6023 1 the school system without any assistance in the 2 family budget in terms of publicly assisted aid, 3 and God only knows how they came to terms with 4 that out in the streets of Wisconsin. 5 I don't know how you find solace 6 and justification in Wisconsin, when objective 7 observers have indicated it was an abysmal 8 failure; that, in fact, it worked against the 9 interests of families and children. 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Well, there 11 seems to be some disagreement on that, Senator. 12 I have a report here from the state of 13 Wisconsin, Governor Thompson's office, and they 14 disagree a great deal with the findings of that 15 report. 16 SENATOR ESPADA: Well, Mr. 17 President, if we could continue. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Holland, you continue to yield? Senator 20 continues to yield. 21 SENATOR ESPADA: Yeah, I mean 22 this is a governor's program, so I'm talking 23 about an objective study that was carried out by 6024 1 a renowned person at the University of 2 Wisconsin. 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: So any 4 governor's program you disagree with? 5 SENATOR ESPADA: By the way, I 6 wanted to add -- I didn't hear that, sir. 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: Never mind. 8 SENATOR ESPADA: Well, by -- if I 9 may just embellish this reference to Quinn. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are you 11 -- Senator, are you asking Senator Holland to 12 continue to yield? 13 SENATOR ESPADA: Yes, I am, sir. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 yields. 16 SENATOR ESPADA: Just to continue 17 with the Wisconsin experiment because I think it 18 serves as, I guess as a justification in your 19 eyes for the program here in New York State and 20 Quinn finds that welfare recipients higher - 21 had a higher attendance rate without LearnFare 22 in Wisconsin. Since the introduction of 23 LearnFare, the results are somewhat destructive 6025 1 in nature. So this intervention seems to hurt. 2 It was not the Governor's office; I was 3 incorrect. It was a report from the legislative 4 branch of the government and also the Department 5 of Health and Human Services criticized this 6 report for not meeting that requirement. So 7 even the federal government criticizes that 8 report for not complying with state and federal 9 requirements. So it is the federal government 10 who disagrees with that report, plus the 11 legislature of the state of Wisconsin. 12 I agree with you to some degree, 13 Senator. It's very difficult for me to believe 14 reports from your side or reports from our 15 side. It's dependent on how the question is 16 asked, but I think it's worth a try to improve 17 education. 18 SENATOR ESPADA: If I may 19 continue, Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Holland, you continue to yield? 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6026 1 continues to yield. 2 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you very 3 much, Senator Holland. 4 On some of the other provisions 5 of your bill, there is this reference here to a 6 sanction, or parents that don't follow through 7 on the WIC referral. Do you -- let me just 8 share that in the Bronx and in the district that 9 you visited, in the Bronx in total first, there 10 are about nine zip codes that do not have a WIC 11 center. In my district, there are about six of 12 those nine, six are in my district. 13 In one WIC center. That not-for 14 profit corporation that I founded which provides 15 WIC services, we serviced thousands of people, a 16 case load of thousands with hundreds on the 17 waiting list. Part of this would provide a 18 sanction to those people that are waiting for 19 service. How do we accommodate those that want 20 the service and don't have access to the service 21 in your bill? 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: The bill only 23 says, I believe, Senator, that they have to 6027 1 complete the screening, not that they have to be 2 on WICs. Let's see if I can find it for you 3 here. *** who is more than six months pregnant 4 and with children less than five years of age 5 who does not complete screening for the USDA 6 special supplemental food program for WICs. 7 This is what we're asking for, 8 just the screening. 9 SENATOR ESPADA: Mr. President, 10 if the Senator would continue to share. 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 continues to yield. 14 SENATOR ESPADA: We have people 15 on waiting lists that can not complete -- that 16 have no access, that have no center that is 17 accessible and available to them and their 18 children. Would -- would they be subject to 19 sanction if they can't get in or get to a WIC 20 center? 21 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, absolutely 22 not. It's a priority system, you understand 23 that, and the pregnant women get priority. It's 6028 1 a priority system and the pregnant women get 2 priority over women with older children. 3 SENATOR ESPADA: Yes, but there 4 are many pregnant priority on the waiting list. 5 SENATOR HOLLAND: We're not going 6 to sanction -- we're not going to sanction 7 anybody, Senator, who can't get to the system 8 who can't enter the system, because it's too 9 full. If they can't do the screening, I don't 10 think that's going to be a problem and, if they 11 can't do it, we're not going to sanction. We're 12 here in this bill, we're trying to turn it 13 around, that's what we're trying to do. 14 SENATOR ESPADA: O.K. If I may, 15 Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 continues to yield. 18 SENATOR ESPADA: I don't have, 19 Mr. President, the people around me to counsel 20 me as to whether this is true. 21 SENATOR HOLLAND: Want some of 22 mine? 23 SENATOR ESPADA: So we'll just 6029 1 continue. I would never accuse you of lying. 2 With respect to another provision 3 that deals with the -- I'll call it a payback 4 provision, that after a certain amount of time, 5 after three months of being back in school. 6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yep. 7 SENATOR ESPADA: There's a 8 repayment but there still is this gap there of 9 three months where this youngster is to get his 10 or her act together and go back to school and 11 stay in school. 12 Other than the sanction, what 13 provisions -- what positive -- what about a 14 helping hand there to assist in that transition 15 for that youngster? I -- in the broad reading of 16 this, a quick reading of this, I can find that 17 assistance. 18 SENATOR HOLLAND: I have -- I 19 don't know whether I follow your question 20 totally. We really have accomplished what we 21 set out to do if that individual comes back to 22 school and stays there for three months and does 23 95 percent attendance. That's what we want to 6030 1 do and, if they're not doing the best work of 2 any student in school, by osmosis they're going 3 to learn something, and that's the aim of the 4 bill. 5 SENATOR ESPADA: But, Mr. 6 President, my question is what are you doing 7 during that three-month period to help that 8 youngster get back in school if it seems that 9 all we're doing is sanctioning them $25 per 10 month per child? 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: We are 12 sanctioning them and getting them to go back to 13 school. That's what we're going to do, but 14 there are also the programs that you talked 15 about, the A.I.D. Program. That program is also 16 available. 17 SENATOR ESPADA: But would the 18 Senator - 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Holland, you continue to yield? 21 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, I do, 22 absolutely. 23 SENATOR ESPADA: With respect to 6031 1 your bill. 2 SENATOR HOLLAND: Well, they can 3 go to any other program. 4 SENATOR ESPADA: We do not 5 include the kind of home visits and outreach and 6 educational preparation that we discussed 7 earlier. 8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Correct. 9 SENATOR ESPADA: That's not part 10 of this three-month period. 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Correct, but if 12 it's on the books and it's still available they 13 can still do that. This doesn't preclude them 14 from going to any other programs, those programs 15 that you mentioned, et cetera, during, before or 16 after that period that they go back to school. 17 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, Mr. 18 President and Senator Holland. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 20 recognizes Senator Leichter. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah, would 22 Senator Holland yield, please? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6032 1 Holland, you yield to Senator Leichter? Senator 2 Holland yields. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. On page 4 3 of your bill, that's section 3, you make a 5 change as regards the provision of certain 6 services for pregnant women. You changed that 7 from the fourth to the sixth month, is that 8 correct? 9 SENATOR HOLLAND: Question is why 10 did we change -- make that change? 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: That was going 12 to be my next question, yes. 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. Just to 14 make the cost of the program more reasonable, 15 more feasible, make the cost of the program more 16 reasonable. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: So, Senator, 18 women who are pregnant in their fourth month and 19 their fifth month would no longer be eligible 20 for this program, is that correct? 21 SENATOR HOLLAND: That's 22 correct. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, thank 6033 1 you. 2 SENATOR HOLLAND: You know, of 3 course, they can go to an emergency room and be 4 taken care of if they have an emergency. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: They could go 6 to an emergency room. 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, so they're 8 not uncovered, they can - 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Leichter, you asking Senator Holland to yield? 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes: 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Holland, do you yield? 14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: So if they 16 have a real problem, Senator, they can go to an 17 emergency room, not -- that, of course, is under 18 existing law. It has nothing to do with this 19 bill. 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Correct. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: But what this 22 bill does, as far as the regular rendering of 23 prenatal services, you are now eliminating women 6034 1 who are in their fourth and fifth month of 2 pregnancy, is that correct? 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, and 4 that's - 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: And that's a 6 cost saving measure? 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, that's 8 true. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you, Mr. 10 President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Leichter, on the bill. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. I think 14 we now see the true color of this bill. You 15 know, Senator Holland gets up and he says, I 16 want to help children and I want to help women, 17 and so on, so what does he do? He cuts one of 18 the most valuable programs that we have 19 providing prenatal care, and I'm appalled, and I 20 think this really shows much as Senator Daly's 21 speech showed what really motivates this. 22 It's punitive. It's punitive, 23 pure and simple punitive. I thought that both 6035 1 Senator Waldon and Senator Espada made very 2 valid points about how you're going to keep 3 children in school, and I think for that reason 4 alone this bill ought to be defeated. 5 But there's the other component 6 of it, and that's the medical component, and 7 that, too, is punitive, and we have every 8 interested as a society to bring these people in 9 and you're not going to -- and it's particularly 10 those who are most vulnerable, who are most - 11 who lead a most fragile life, and it's 12 particularly pregnant women and the most 13 important thing is to see they get good prenatal 14 care. 15 So, one, this program really 16 discourages that population because the punitive 17 approach doesn't work and, secondly, it cuts the 18 benefits. 19 Let me just finally call to the 20 attention, my colleagues, what I thought was a 21 very succinct and very telling memorandum in 22 opposition by the New York State Bar Association 23 Committee on Social Services. I thought the 6036 1 memorandum in opposition was so good that I'd 2 like to make it part of the record and I'm going 3 to read part of it. 4 (Reading) This bill purports to 5 establish a child and family development program 6 which encourages recipients to reach the long 7 term goals of reduced health care costs through 8 the receipt of primary preventive care. 9 Then skipping, certainly, this 10 bill would not accomplish any of its stated 11 objectives. The bill is premised on a series of 12 incorrect assumptions that prenatal health care 13 and primary health care services are readily 14 available to all public assistance recipients 15 and that recipients choose not to obtain 16 adequate medical care, that poor school 17 attendance is within the control of the 18 individuals and families and not due to factors 19 such as malnutrition, illness and homelessness. 20 None of these assumptions is 21 correct. The bill imposes penalties on women, 22 children and families who do not obtain services 23 which are unobtainable due to the lack of 6037 1 available services for indigent people. The 2 state must ensure that health services are 3 available for all poor women, children and 4 families before creating penalties for poor 5 people who do not receive health care. 6 That's the end of the memorandum 7 and I'm putting it in the record. 8 Let me just say, Senator Holland, 9 it's not enough to say people can go to 10 emergency rooms. 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Can I ask you a 12 question, Senator? Did I understand you 13 correctly to say that that report from the bar 14 association said poor school attendance is not 15 within the control of the individual or the 16 family? Did I understand that correctly? 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, the 18 report states that factors such as malnutrition, 19 illness and homelessness are very significant 20 factors. 21 SENATOR HOLLAND: But I didn't 22 ask you that. I said, did you say or does that 23 report say that poor school attendance is not 6038 1 within the control of the individual or the 2 family? 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: It says that 4 your assumptions, sir, are incorrect to the 5 extent that you premised this bill on the factor 6 that all of these are within the control of the 7 people who you're trying to influence in this 8 punitive way and that -- and now I quote, and 9 this is what I think you're referring to, "and 10 not due to factors such as malnutrition, illness 11 and homelessness." 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: I must have 13 misunderstood you because I thought you said 14 that poor school attendance is not within the 15 control of the individual or the family and I - 16 my -- I just find that very difficult to 17 believe. We've been taught differently for my 18 entire life, that it's the responsibility of the 19 individual to go to school and do the best that 20 he or she can and that the family is to aid in 21 that as much as they possibly can and that's 22 what makes -- one of the good reasons that makes 23 good school attendance if the family does that 6039 1 notwithstanding that there are other problems, 2 whether they're in the city of New York or in 3 Herkimer County. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 5 President,, answering Senator Holland. 6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: First of all, 8 I would have hoped you had read this because I 9 think it's a very good memorandum by a very 10 respectable organization, the New York State Bar 11 Association, it's Committee on Social Services 12 and I'm going to make it available to you, and 13 I'm surprised that you don't have it. 14 But what it said is that insofar 15 as your bill is premised solely -- this is the 16 interpretation I'm giving you to what was stated 17 in this memorandum, that insofar as your bill 18 believes that you can affect anybody's behavior 19 solely by taking $25 from them and that you fail 20 to consider such factors as malnutrition, 21 illness and homelessness, your bill is -- the 22 assumptions upon which your bill are premised 23 are incorrect. 6040 1 I believe that this report is - 2 is right. I think it sees through your bill and 3 I think that, Senator, in part I think some of 4 the problems with your bill and with your 5 approach is that it really looks at a society, 6 it looks at an environment, it looks at 7 conditions which are far different in those 8 areas where you're trying to deal with a problem 9 and there's certainly the problem exists in the 10 city of New York. It exists in Senator Espada's 11 district, yes. He represents a poor district, 12 and I think he understands what the problems of 13 that community are and what needs to be done, 14 Senator. 15 Very frankly, I think coming from 16 the community that you do and with your outlook, 17 you do not. You do not. 18 SENATOR HOLLAND: Let me try to 19 answer your points. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Leichter has the floor, Senator Holland. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'll yield. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: He will 6041 1 yield. 2 SENATOR HOLLAND: As far as the 3 malnutrition goes, this Legislature has passed a 4 school lunch program for all the schools and 5 last year this house passed a school breakfast 6 program and this year we are working on a 7 homeless -- expansion of the homeless education 8 bill. We are -- we are concerned about these 9 people and those ideas. You know, if they -- if 10 young people don't get fed at home, they can go 11 to school and get breakfast and lunch and, 12 hopefully, learn something and get their degree 13 at the same time. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, let 15 me -- let me just say to you, I've no question 16 that personally you are concerned about your 17 neighbors, you're concerned about the people 18 living in your society, but I think when you 19 bring it down to the specific problems that we 20 face now, that concern, Senator, is often, I 21 must say misplaced. 22 It doesn't understand the 23 conditions that exist and it looks so much 6042 1 solely at current costs that it fails to 2 appreciate and understand what needs to be done 3 to truly help people and truly reduce costs. 4 Senator, even if we accept that 5 everything else in your bill, for you to put 6 forth a bill in this day and age where every 7 one, everyone, even the Conservatives agree that 8 prenatal care is the most important thing that 9 we can do to help people be healthy, to avoid 10 the enormous costs that we incur when children 11 are born with low birth weight and all of the 12 social problems that that will inevitably cause 13 and that, therefore, we need to put money into 14 prenatal care, and your bill reduces that. You 15 say you are no longer eligible the fourth and 16 fifth months. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 18 recognizes Senator Stavisky. 19 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 20 I just want to assure you that anything that you 21 would do to encourage young people to stay in 22 school that would be reasonable, I would rise on 23 the floor and support those efforts, and to that 6043 1 extent we agree. 2 School attendance, school 3 achievement, the completion of an academic or 4 vocational program at any level enhances that 5 young person's ability to make it in our society 6 and, to that extent, your goals are 7 commendable. 8 But I have a couple of questions 9 and I would ask if the sponsor would yield. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Holland, do you yield to Senator Stavisky? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Holland yields. 15 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator 16 Holland, let me ask you at what percentage of 17 attendance or the failure to achieve that 18 percentage of attendance is there a penalty for 19 children who fall below that percentage of daily 20 attendance; what is the percentage in your 21 bill? 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: It's 80 23 percent. 80 percent. 6044 1 SENATOR STAVISKY: 80 percent. 2 Fine. That's the way I read it. 3 Now, Senator Holland, would you 4 yield for another question? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Holland continues to yield. 7 SENATOR STAVISKY: At what point 8 in attendance do you propose to restore the 9 money that was taken away? What would have to 10 be achieved by the child for the money that was 11 lost to be restored? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: If they meet 95 13 percent attendance for the next three months. 14 SENATOR STAVISKY: 95 percent. 15 Senator Holland, do see a discrepancy in what 16 you're doing? 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, I 18 don't. The point of the legislation is to get 19 young people to go to school. 20 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator 21 Holland, I asked you, do you see a discrep 22 ancy - 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: No. I answered 6045 1 that. 2 SENATOR STAVISKY: -- that you're 3 using? You see no discrepancy. 4 Thank you. I have no further 5 questions for Senator Holland. 6 I would like to take the floor. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Stavisky, on the bill. 9 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator 10 Holland, Count Dracula was probably the bill 11 drafter and the sooner you get rid of Count 12 Dracula as your bill drafter, the better off 13 you'll be. 14 You are saying that if this child 15 is absent from school more than 20 percent of 16 the time, the child does not achieve an 80 17 percent attendance rate. Therefore, you're 18 proposing to take away some of the money that is 19 given. That, I can understand and perhaps 20 follow, but then to restore the money, you're 21 asking that child who has not achieved an 80 22 percent attendance rate now to rise to a 95 23 percent attendance rate. 6046 1 Senator Holland, would you 2 propose having the standard of 95 percent 3 attendance to be followed before your school 4 districts or other school districts in the state 5 get their state aid? It's unconscionable to 6 have that discrepancy between an 80 percent 7 standard and then suddenly to require 90 percent 8 -- 95 percent attendance for three consecutive 9 months. This is crazy. This is an improper 10 standard to impose. If your bill had said, "If 11 you fall below 80 percent, we'll penalize you, 12 and if you return to an 80 percent attendance, 13 we will restore the money," then we would have 14 something to discuss. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Holland -- excuse me, Senator Stavisky. 17 Senator Holland, why do you 18 rise? 19 SENATOR HOLLAND: I wondered if 20 the Senator would yield to a question? 21 SENATOR STAVISKY: I will yield. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Stavisky yields. 6047 1 SENATOR HOLLAND: Do you know 2 what the requirement is for other school 3 districts for attendance? 4 SENATOR STAVISKY: Do I know 5 what? 6 SENATOR HOLLAND: What the 7 requirement is for other upstate school 8 districts for attendance? 9 SENATOR STAVISKY: They do not 10 lose state aid when their children fall below a 11 standard. They are paid on the basis of daily 12 attendance. 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: And if they 14 don't get their 100 percent, 90 percent, they 15 are punished. Maybe it's not the $25, and what 16 they get when they go to school, Senator, is an 17 education and a diploma. 18 SENATOR STAVISKY: We're not 19 arguing that. 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: So they can 21 compete. That's what we're trying to do. 22 SENATOR STAVISKY: We're not 23 arguing that point. We're only arguing the 6048 1 difference between your 80 percent standard with 2 a cancellation of some of the financial benefits 3 and your insistence on 95 percent attendance for 4 three consecutive months. That makes no sense. 5 Somebody who wrote one section of the bill 6 didn't read the other section of the bill or 7 else can't read at all, and I maintain that 95 8 percent attendance by those kids who may have 9 had family illness, personal illness, home 10 lessness, disruption, movement from one school 11 area to another cannot be made an artificial 12 standard to remove the draconian penalty that 13 you imposed. It is draconian. 14 I know you not to be draconian in 15 your attitude toward social service issues or 16 educational issues, and I ask you to reconsider 17 this. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 19 me, Senator Stavisky. 20 Senator Holland, why do you 21 rise? 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: Okay. If we 23 change it to 80 percent, would you support the 6049 1 bill? 2 SENATOR STAVISKY: I might. 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, no, no. 4 SENATOR STAVISKY: If you take a 5 look - 6 SENATOR HOLLAND: The question is 7 yes or no? 8 SENATOR STAVISKY: Yes. If you 9 take a look at those who voted in opposition in 10 1992, you will not find Leonard Stavisky's name 11 on it because I sought to have encouragement of 12 educational attendance, and I would urge -- I 13 would urge you, at least as a minimal response, 14 to change that to 80 percent and not insist on a 15 95 percent attendance record - 16 SENATOR HOLLAND: This was not 17 voted on last year, Senator. 18 SENATOR STAVISKY: -- for three 19 consecutive months. 20 I would support the legislation 21 if it did not have that discrepancy because I 22 join you on wanting children to attend class. 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Well, let me 6050 1 tell you something. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Holland -- Senator Holland, please, so we can 4 maintain some control, some decorum in the 5 chamber, would you address your questions 6 through the Chair. 7 Are you asking Senator Stavisky 8 to yield? 9 SENATOR HOLLAND: I would just 10 like to respond to his - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You have 12 the opportunity to respond to his -- Senator, 13 you're asking him to yield to a question? 14 SENATOR STAVISKY: You're asking 15 me to yield? 16 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Stavisky yields, Senator Holland. 19 SENATOR HOLLAND: If the bill is 20 not -- if the bill is successful in this house 21 but not in the Assembly or the Governor this 22 year, I will certainly take a look at changing 23 it to 80 percent next year. 6051 1 SENATOR STAVISKY: That's very 2 fair, and I thank you very much for your 3 willingness to look anew at that issue. That's 4 the main reason I rose because I join you in 5 wanting to see proper attendance in school, and 6 there are things that happen; a child becomes 7 ill. 8 I don't think the bill 9 differentiates between an excused absence for 10 illness because there really is no excused 11 absence, or an absence may be caused by the 12 relocation of a family from one community to 13 another, and those are considerations that 14 should be included and yes, I think some of the 15 comments by Senator -- such as Senator Espada 16 and others, that you should have a positive 17 out-reach program to assist these kids to come 18 back to the school. I think that would be very, 19 very valuable in terms of an addition to this 20 legislation. 21 You might find with such addi 22 tions, if we're dealing only with the school 23 attendance provisions, you would find that a 6052 1 bill dealing with that aspect would have sub 2 stantial support on this side of the aisle, and 3 I would be very happy to join you in seeking 4 that kind of solution. 5 Thank you very much. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 7 any other Senator wishing to speak on this 8 bill? 9 Senator Montgomery. 10 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes. Thank 11 you, Mr. President. 12 Would Senator Holland yield for a 13 question? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Holland, do you yield to Senator Montgomery? 16 Senator Holland yields. 17 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes. 18 Senator Holland, I was just wondering what in 19 the bill -- I guess this is a similar issue to 20 what was raised by Senator Stavisky. Is there 21 anything in the bill which protects a family 22 that, for instance, is a victim of -- either the 23 mother may be a victim of domestic violence - 6053 1 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm sorry. 2 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: -- and moves 3 from one domestic violence shelter to another 4 several times in one school year and, thereby, 5 forcing the children to be -- to be transferred 6 from one school to the next, and - 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, we 8 would have to ask for a waiver from the federal 9 government, and all of these items that you 10 suggested, some the other Senators suggested, 11 would be negotiated in the waiver. 12 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: So this 13 requires a waiver - 14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: -- from the 16 federal guidelines. 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, that's 18 true. 19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I see. 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't expect 21 that we want children to stay where they have a 22 problem with their families. 23 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right. 6054 1 Senator, does the $25 reduction -- would you 2 continue to yield? 3 Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Holland continues to yield, Senator Montgomery. 6 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Okay. 7 Senator Holland, does -- the $25 reduction, is 8 that for per family or for per family member? I 9 get a different reading from the - 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Per child. 11 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: That is per 12 child? 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 14 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: So, assuming 15 that the family has three children, that's $75, 16 so it's not a simple $25 reduction in the 17 welfare grant. 18 SENATOR HOLLAND: Right. Yes, 19 that could be, but it's per child, who is not 20 attending 80 percent of their schooling. What 21 we're trying to do again is get the young people 22 to go to school. 23 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I see. 6055 1 And - 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Holland, do you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Would 5 Senator Holland continue to yield? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Holland yields. 8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator 9 Holland, on the issue of the requirement to 10 receive the health screening, what protects 11 families who don't have immediate access to 12 primary care facilities, such as in parts of my 13 district where we don't have primary care 14 facilities? 15 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, that 16 would also be worked out in the waiver and, 17 again, I would have to say, we are not trying to 18 say to some young mother that "If we don't 19 supply what you need, we're going to take your 20 $25 away." That certainly would be worked out 21 in the waiver, I believe, that if the service is 22 not available, we're not taking your money away 23 from you. 6056 1 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right. 2 If you would continue to yield. Mr. President? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Holland, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Senator yields. 8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you. 9 Senator Holland, is there any 10 indication that the federal government might 11 provide a waiver to our state for this 12 particular -- have you had discussions already? 13 Is this sort of in the hopper? 14 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, no, 15 Senator. We wouldn't do that until we got 16 approval from this house, the other house and 17 the Governor, but it's happened already in 18 Maryland. They've given a waiver already in 19 Maryland, and this president says he wants to 20 make waivers much easier to do because he wants 21 to help the welfare system move forward. 22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right. 23 My last question to you. 6057 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Holland, do you continue to yield? 3 The Senator yields. 4 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Have you an 5 estimate on the amount of money that you're 6 looking to save with this bill? Is there - 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm told it 8 should be cost neutral. 9 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: It should be 10 cost neutral, so this is not really a money 11 saving - 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, it's to 13 improve management, improve the delivery of 14 services and encourage young people to go to 15 school. 16 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right. 17 Thank you, Mr. President. 18 May I just briefly speak on 19 the - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Montgomery, on the bill. 22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: -- on the 23 legislation? 6058 1 I am concerned that, again - 2 once again, Senator Holland has come to the 3 floor with legislation that is intended to - 4 according to him, to help people, but from every 5 indication, even in states where they have such 6 legislation which was also passed, I would 7 assume to help people, it has, in fact, hurt 8 people, and it has hurt the most at risk, the 9 most vulnerable people among us, and those are 10 primarily women and their children and, 11 obviously, we don't want to do that. Certainly, 12 I hope that we don't want to and don't intend to 13 do that, Senator Holland, but I certainly must 14 rise to say to you that I'm afraid that that's 15 what will happen if we pass this legislation and 16 if we are successful in getting a waiver which 17 would allow us to do it. I think we're going to 18 end up hurting people that we don't want to 19 hurt, so I want to warn you that that's what I 20 think will happen. 21 And, two, it's a very sad state, 22 I think, for us to be, as legislators, in one of 23 the -- though we've had many economic slump bad 6059 1 experiences in our state, we're a fairly well 2 off state, and here we are picking on mothers 3 and children, and I just think that is 4 outrageous. We don't have to do this. There is 5 no reason for us to take money from a woman 6 because she can't, for whatever reason -- and 7 there probably are a thousand reasons that we 8 can run through right now why a woman can't get 9 to a certain place at a certain time to get a 10 health screening for her baby or for her five 11 year-old or her three-year-old, and so we're 12 going to stand up here and say, "Let's force 13 this woman to take care of her children by 14 taking her money, the little money that she gets 15 to support her -- her children," and so I just 16 -- that's -- that is my -- my political/ 17 philosophical position on it. 18 And my warning, again, is that 19 while we say we intend to help people and we 20 call this -- what do we call this, a family 21 development program. This is a family 22 destruction program, and we should call it what 23 it is and what it will mean to families in our 6060 1 state. 2 So, Senator Holland, I'm very 3 saddened by this because I think there are - 4 you are -- your intentions are absolutely good, 5 but I -- I just am very sad and sorry that we 6 always pick on the least of us rather than -- I 7 have piles of press releases from the special 8 prosecutor, where he has been really going out 9 there and recouping funds in very large numbers, 10 by the millions. Those are the people who are 11 really able to save money. We need to be doing 12 much more than that and not picking on the 13 little person who is just essentially a survivor 14 at a very difficult time in a very difficult 15 world, and the survivor with children at risk. 16 So, Senator Holland, I think this 17 is the wrong way to go, and I'll vote against 18 this bill. 19 Thank you, Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 21 recognizes Senator Espada. 22 SENATOR ESPADA: Mr. President, 23 would the sponsor yield to one last question? 6061 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Holland, do you yield to one last question? 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 5 Senator yields. 6 SENATOR ESPADA: There was just 7 an issue that was left open. Your answer to my 8 question, as to whether or not recipients would 9 be sanctioned if afforded the inavailability of 10 services, say they wanted to access a service, 11 WIC or prenatal and there was a waiting list. 12 What have you -- your answer was there was 13 language in the bill that protected against 14 that, and I'm advised -- and I reference Section 15 131, subdivision 13, paragraph (d) where it's 16 clear that people may, in fact, be penalized for 17 not following through on the completion of a 18 referral, and should that be anywhere near the 19 truth, I would ask that you - 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, again, 21 this would have to be negotiated in the waiver. 22 SENATOR ESPADA: I'm sorry? 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Again, this 6062 1 would have to be negotiated in the waiver from 2 the federal government, and I think what -- how 3 I answered the question was, we had no intention 4 of taking anything away, the same question I 5 answered to Senator Montgomery. I'm sure that 6 the waiver would not allow -- the federal 7 government would not allow, we wouldn't want to 8 take away services for people if they're not 9 available. 10 SENATOR ESPADA: If I may, Mr. 11 President? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: As to one 13 more last question -- Senator Holland, do you 14 yield to one more last question? 15 SENATOR ESPADA: Subpart (b) to 16 my one question. 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 18 SENATOR ESPADA: Would you amend 19 this bill, sir, to make absolutely sure that 20 women and children are not penalized for the 21 inavailability of the service that would 22 otherwise be - 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: I would be glad 6063 1 to do that -- if it's not successful this year, 2 I'll be glad to do that next year. Hopefully, 3 it will be successful this year. You will 4 support it next year if I do that? 5 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 7 recognizes Senator Mendez. 8 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President, 9 will Senator Holland yield for a question? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Holland, do you yield to Senator Mendez? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Holland yields. 15 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you. 16 You know, Senator Holland, 17 oftentimes we hear the expression that the road 18 to hell is paved with good intentions. I say 19 that in reference to one of the quotes of your 20 bill, which is that a family would be penalized 21 by $25 a month if the woman fails to obtain 22 health care screening services. 23 Now, we do have a big Department 6064 1 of Health in the state of New York, and that 2 Department of Health is supposed to perform all 3 sorts of educational activities and outreach 4 into the communities so that residents of the 5 state of New York get to know which programs are 6 available to them in case that they suffer from 7 AIDS or in cases that they want to know about 8 immunization services for their children, and 9 what have you, so that by penalizing -- wouldn't 10 you say that by penalizing a woman who fails to 11 go through this screening process, we are 12 exonerating them? Those are our agencies that 13 are supposed to get the news to the neighbor 14 hoods, so that the programs that we design in 15 this very Legislature are available to them. Do 16 you see it that way? 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, it's 18 simply a screening process, and I'm sure that 19 the language in the waiver or the language that 20 is finally agreed upon would give the individual 21 time to go to the screening. We're not going to 22 say to that young lady, "Either you're there 23 tomorrow or you're going to lose your $25." We 6065 1 may give her two or three months to do that. 2 Just go to the screening. If the service is not 3 available, that's a different story. All we're 4 asking is some -- some primary care, so she has 5 to go to the screening. 6 SENATOR MENDEZ: You know, 7 Senator Holland, if by the same way penalizing a 8 woman who does not apply to be a part of the WIC 9 program, again exonerates that state agency and 10 its employees that are not reaching out into the 11 communities to make certain that these women who 12 need the services or for who these programs have 13 been instituted at the state level could 14 benefit. 15 SENATOR HOLLAND: If we don't 16 notify the individual first, Senator, we're not 17 going to take the $25 away from them. They're 18 going to have to know about it with enough time 19 to get to the screening before we take the money 20 away from them. If they're just in the 21 communities and had not been notified, we are 22 not going to take the money away from them. 23 They have to be notified first. That's without 6066 1 question. 2 SENATOR MENDEZ: You know, Mr. 3 President, we're living in a time where 4 everybody accepts the saying that information is 5 power. In many of our neighborhoods, people 6 remain powerless because the institutions that 7 are supposed to provide the information so that 8 the people who need the services could benefit 9 from them, they never get the information, or it 10 is -- it is done in a way, I should say, rather 11 callously. 12 Will the Senator yield for a 13 another question? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Holland, do you continue to yield? 16 The Senator yields. 17 SENATOR MENDEZ: Now, with the 18 issue of preventive -- with the issue of -- of 19 sanctions as it relates to learning, are you - 20 are you familiar with the program in Wisconsin 21 called LearnFare? 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't call it 23 a problem, but I'm familiar with the LearnFare 6067 1 program in the state of Wisconsin, yes. 2 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes, you are, 3 very much so, and also with the program that is 4 called LEAP in Ohio? 5 SENATOR HOLLAND: M-m h-m-m. 6 SENATOR MENDEZ: Both programs, 7 Mr. President, deal with the provision of 8 sanctions, but they were applied mainly to 9 teenagers. When the Milwaukee -- the Urban 10 Research Center of the University of Milwaukee 11 compared the attendance -- the school attendance 12 of children with parents receiving Aid to 13 Dependent Children versus the attendance of 14 children that did not receive public assistance, 15 and they concluded that the resources spent on 16 education -- that resources spent on education 17 are more effective, more conducive to learning 18 than resources spent on monetary -- if we accept 19 that conclusion from these researchers as being 20 a valid one, then wouldn't you say that maybe we 21 should change our orientation in helping to 22 foment independence from public assistance from 23 these individuals that are presently receiving 6068 1 it, because sanctions, as has been proven, does 2 not work as much as a more positive - 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, I will 4 listen to any specific program that you have or 5 that any member has on that side or this side. 6 However, I have to go back, when anybody asks me 7 that kind of question, to the graduation rate in 8 the city of New York. I think it's outrageous 9 that we have sat here and our predecessors have 10 sat here and allowed young peoples' lives to be 11 wasted, basically, in the city of New York 12 because they don't have an education, and I will 13 try anything to do that, and I am going to try 14 this one now, and I'm going to bring up the 15 Wisconsin program later on and if either one of 16 those passes the Assembly, we'll try that one, 17 but I'd suggest that all of us get copies of the 18 graduation -- four-year graduation rates from 19 the city of New York and you will see four-year 20 high schools that have graduation rates of 2.7, 21 3.8, 11.0, 18 percent, and the average -- and 22 the big schools, 77 percent, and the average is 23 43 percent, 43 1/2. If we don't do something 6069 1 about that -- terrible for us. 2 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator Saland, 3 I think that you are very sincere in your desire 4 to change the situation for many of these 5 children and you're frustrated about it, and I 6 understand it because I come from the city of 7 New York and, in my mind, when looking at those 8 statistics for the three percent of young people 9 graduating high school, that means that the 10 school system in New York City is failing all 11 children, whether they are white, Puerto Rican, 12 Hispanics, African-American, or whatever they 13 are. That whole system is failing our kids. 14 So that I understand very, very 15 well your frustration, especially when we know 16 and those who are teachers know very well that 17 in any classroom, there is that mathematical 18 model that is called the normal curve that 19 specifically states that at the end of that 20 curve, that there will be some children that 21 will learn -- that will not learn regardless of 22 what the teacher does. It's a very small 23 percentage. 6070 1 Then, at the other extreme, 2 there's another percentage of children that will 3 learn irrespective of what a teacher does in the 4 classroom and then, in the middle, there are the 5 majority of the children that will learn in 6 relation to the activities that are conducted in 7 the -- in the classroom situation, and some of 8 our kids definitely are going to school where 9 they don't have textbooks, where they don't have 10 materials to -- the teachers have the materials 11 to do -- to proceed with the learning. 12 So, I understand very, very well 13 the frustration that you feel and will gladly 14 cooperate with you at some other time in 15 discussing ideas that might work. In the 16 meantime, I really -- Mr. President, Senator 17 Saland, I really believe that this bill 18 penalizes people and does not, in fact, resolve 19 the problem. That is why I intend to vote in 20 the negative. 21 Thank you, Mr. President. Thank 22 you. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Seeing no 6071 1 other Senators who wish to speak on the bill, 2 there is a local fiscal impact note at the 3 desk. I'll ask the Secretary to read the last 4 section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Slow roll call. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11 roll. A slow roll call request has been made. 12 Are there five Senators willing to stand? There 13 are. The Secretary will call the roll slowly. 14 SENATOR GOLD: You don't have to 15 do that. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush. 17 (There was no response.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno. 19 Senator Bruno? 20 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor. 22 (There was no response.) 23 Senator Cook. 6072 1 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Daly. 3 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator 5 DeFrancisco. 6 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo. 8 SENATOR DiCARLO: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator 10 Dollinger. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Espada, to explain his vote. 15 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, Mr. 16 President. 17 Once more, we are taking a failed 18 system -- the first leg of this was the failed 19 welfare system, now a key -- key component of 20 our society, the failed school system in part 21 here with the provisions dealing with the 22 punitive sanctions for non-attendance, and we're 23 blaming the victim once again. 6073 1 When Senator Holland referenced 2 his meeting in my district, we took him to two 3 schools. We took him to a school -- a high 4 school with over 4,000 youngsters in one high 5 school building, ill equipped, poor facilities, 6 can certainly -- can not be compared to some of 7 the other facilities whose outcomes he wants to 8 compare our children against. 9 With respect to what the 10 youngsters told him, we took him to another 11 school. It is true that the four-year gradua 12 tion rate that he referenced, 17.8 percent, is 13 something we don't want to live with. 14 We took him to another high 15 school where we had an enrolled population of 16 high school dropouts whose success rate was near 17 95 percent there. Why did it work there? They 18 told them it had to do with the kinds of support 19 and encouragement they received in their 20 alternative high school. 21 It is to those alternatives, to 22 that support system, that I think we should 23 direct attention and priority to and not these 6074 1 kinds of punitive sanctions. I vote no. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Espada will be recorded in the negative. 4 The Secretary will continue the 5 roll call. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley. 7 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Galiber. 9 (There was no response.) 10 Senator Gold. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Gold, to explain his vote. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Holland, 15 let me just say to you that while your bill 16 would offer what you think is a very simple 17 answer, if these problems were that simple, 18 Senator, they would have been solved a long time 19 ago. I just hope that we haven't wasted three 20 or four hours today. 21 I think you've heard a lot from 22 people who live in the communities that are 23 affected, who come out of them, who go back to 6075 1 them, and maybe you understand that these are 2 complex problems, they are not simplistic 3 problems that you throw, if you will, a piece of 4 paper and then all of a sudden sit back with our 5 hands on our waists and we take a look and as 6 farmers looking out on a field as these crops 7 grow. Your bill will not grow crops. Your bill 8 will cause destruction and disaster. 9 Everybody in the memo, Senator 10 Holland, that I've read, applauds you for 11 recognizing that there's a problem because a lot 12 of people don't even want to deal with it. 13 Every one of those people says you're being too 14 simplistic. You've got a good heart; you've got 15 your eye on the ball but you've got the wrong 16 answer. 17 I vote no. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Gold will be recorded in the negative. 20 The Secretary will continue the 21 roll. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gonzalez. 23 (There was no response.) 6076 1 Senator Goodman. 2 (There was no response.) 3 Senator Hannon. 4 (There was no response.) 5 Senator Hoffmann. 6 SENATOR HOFFMANN: To explain my 7 vote, please. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Hoffmann, to explain her vote. 10 SENATOR HOFFMANN: This is the 11 time of year where we have large packages of 12 legislation showing up with a little bit of 13 everything for everybody in here, and I realize 14 that this bill can be sold a lot of different 15 ways back home, and probably some of my 16 colleagues will be able to justify their votes 17 in favor of this bill in some measure as doing 18 some good for poor families. 19 I see it very differently, and I 20 think many other people around the state will 21 see it very differently as well. It's a 22 punitive bill. It's another way of punishing 23 poor people. Taking food off the table of 6077 1 families who are poor because a child does not 2 attend school is not good public policy in this 3 state. 4 I applaud the sponsor for having 5 some incentives in there to encourage partici 6 pation, but the disincentives, the punitive 7 aspects more than justify a no vote. 8 The other part that absolutely 9 appalls me is the prospect of reducing prenatal 10 care to any category of benefic... of benefits 11 in New York State, and I would do anything in my 12 power to try to increase the amount of prenatal 13 care and early screening that should be avail 14 able to people of all incomes in New York 15 State. 16 So I'm going to vote no against 17 this bill, but I will also be watching very 18 closely to see how it is characterized in the 19 months to come and will do everything in my 20 power to make sure people understand that it is 21 a multi-purpose bill, and it has a much larger 22 stick, as too, it has a carrot. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6078 1 Hoffmann, in the negative. 2 The Secretary will continue the 3 roll. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Holland. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Holland, to explain his vote. 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: I would like to 8 give some of the results from the -- again, give 9 you some of the results from the Primary Preven 10 tive Initiative. That's the Maryland Study. 11 Nearly 90 percent of Maryland's 12 AFDC families met all of the requirements, 90 13 percent. 95 percent meet -- met requirements 14 within three months. Only five percent of the 15 families have disallowances for three or more 16 months. 42 percent increase in the number of 17 early periodic screening diagnosis and treatment 18 screens since PPI began, 107,000 in 1992 and 19 152,000 in 1993. Only 2 percent of the families 20 remained disallowed after seven to nine months, 21 and improved interagency collaboration and 22 communication between state, county, education 23 and human services offices. 6079 1 And here's just some of the 2 success stories: 3 Lead poisoning detected in 4 children who otherwise would not have been 5 diagnosed. Cancer diagnosed in a mother 6 receiving prenatal care, caught and treated in 7 time. Eye and vision impairments corrected in 8 many children and parents and improved learning 9 -- and all of those things are good, but the 10 best thing that we want to do is give improved 11 medical services and get young people to go to 12 school. 13 If you don't like this bill, 14 that's fine. Give me a specific and we'll look 15 at that, but if you can pound your chest, 16 anybody in this house, and say, "Hey, my high 17 school graduates 18 percent in four years," 18 nobody is proud of that, and no matter what 19 anybody in this house says, it hasn't improved 20 in the years that any one of us have been here 21 and we have to do something about it other than 22 just be negative. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6080 1 Holland - 2 SENATOR HOLLAND: I vote yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Holland in the affirmative. 5 The Secretary will continue the 6 roll. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson. 8 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Jones. 10 Senator Jones. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Jones, to explain her vote. 13 SENATOR JONES: I have to agree 14 with many of the things my colleagues have said 15 here today. I wish I thought that this was 16 serious and was really going to correct the 17 problem that all of us have to recognize that we 18 have. The problem is not only the taxpayer 19 who's found it a popular thing to say, "If we 20 only fix welfare, all the other ills in society 21 would be solved," but on the same line, we also 22 know we're not helping the poor who really need 23 some of these services, so we're sort of caught 6081 1 in the middle, and it certainly is an issue that 2 needs to be addressed. 3 I would like to believe that this 4 is going to do it. I certainly believe in 5 children being in school. I had a bill myself 6 that mandated children who are emancipated must 7 attend school in order to collect social 8 services. 9 I'm only going to vote for it 10 because I guess I think, you know, we have to do 11 something. I'm not convinced that this is the 12 right way to go, but it certainly appears to be 13 a one-house bill, and I know Senator Holland 14 said that he was doing some negotiating. Maybe 15 something that -- will come up that will address 16 both sides of this issue, because what it is a 17 political issue, as we all well know, and not 18 necessarily a social one that's good for 19 anybody. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Jones, how do you vote? 22 SENATOR JONES: I'll vote yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6082 1 Jones in the affirmative. 2 The Secretary will continue the 3 roll. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger. 5 (There was no response.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 7 SENATOR KUHL: Yes. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack. 9 SENATOR LACK: Aye. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin. 11 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle. 13 SENATOR LaVALLE: Aye. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leichter. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 17 recognizes Senator Leichter to explain his vote. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 19 I really don't -- Senator Leichter, excuse me 20 just a second. 21 Gentlemen -- gentlemen, can we 22 take the conversations out of the chamber, 23 please? It's getting very, very difficult to 6083 1 hear your colleagues explain their votes. If 2 there's something so pressing, take it outside 3 the chamber, please. Thank you. 4 Senator Leichter. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: I don't 6 understand how Senator Cook can say that this is 7 going to increase medical benefits. Even if his 8 punitive sanction worked, he cuts -- this bill 9 cuts prenatal care, so people want to believe 10 that that 25 sanction -- $25 sanction is going 11 to work or, like Senator Jones say, "I don't 12 know anything better. Maybe I'll go along with 13 this," but they also ought to take a look at the 14 fact that the bill cuts prenatal care, something 15 that we all agree is needed, is necessary, is 16 important. So, to say that this bill improves 17 medical care is just misleading. 18 I vote in the negative. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Leichter in the negative. 21 The Secretary will continue the 22 roll. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy. 6084 1 SENATOR LEVY: Aye. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous. 3 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese. 5 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 7 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marino, 9 aye. 10 Senator Markowitz. 11 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez, 13 no. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator 15 Montgomery. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Montgomery to explain her vote. 18 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr. 19 President. I would just like to read into the 20 record some, I think, significant savings based 21 on the work of our special prosecutor for 22 Medicaid fraud control. 23 Special prosecutor charges 6085 1 Oswego doctor with Medicaid fraud after 2 undercover probe. State to recoup $5500. 3 Westchester jury convicts 4 dentist of $220,000 in Medicaid fraud. 5 Special prosecutor charges 6 Plattsburgh dentist with $40,000 in Medicaid 7 fraud. 8 Ulster psychologist, 9,700 9 Medicaid fraud. 10 The special prosecutor arrests 11 ex-Oneida Department of Social Services offical 12 in a $1.2 million job contract fraud. 13 A Brooklyn podiatrist convicted 14 of 200,000-plus Medicaid fraud. 15 Special prosecutor arrests Queens 16 lab manager in $1 million money laundering. 17 Special prosecutor arrests 18 Buffalo area psychiatrist for $50,000 medicaid 19 fraud. Medicaid and Medicare to recoup 20 $100,000. 21 Ex-purchasing chief guilty of 22 $37,000 theft at Schenectady hospital. 23 Westchester jury convicts dentist 6086 1 -- that's the same one -- $220,000. 2 Manhattan doctor admits $1.5 3 million-plus methadone Medicaid fraud. 4 Westchester County doctor gets 5 six months in jail for Medicaid fraud. 6 And two druggists plead guilty on 7 $155,000 script buying Medicaid billing scam. 8 I submit to you, Mr. President, 9 that's a partial -- very, very partial listing 10 of the kind of Medicaid fraud that the special 11 prosecutor has uncovered and recouped money for 12 the state, and I submit to you that that is 13 where the savings is. We should be spending 14 much more time doing that and not penalizing and 15 punishing poor women and their children. 16 This is a very sad moment for us, 17 and a very -- I think the wrong statement for us 18 to be making. This is where the money is, Mr. 19 President. That's why I wanted to read it into 20 the record so that we can go back and look. I 21 hope that Senator Holland will take this very 22 seriously. There is a lot of fraud, but it is 23 not where he is looking for it. 6087 1 Thank you very much. I vote no. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Montgomery in the negative. 4 The Secretary will continue the 5 roll. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula. 7 SENATOR NANULA: No. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nolan. 9 (There was no response.) 10 Senator Nozzolio. 11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator 13 Ohrenstein, no. 14 Senator Onorato. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Onorato to explain his vote. 17 SENATOR ONORATO: To explain my 18 vote. 19 Mr. President, I am almost in 20 complete agreement with Senator Holland's 21 concept, that we have to do something to reform 22 the welfare system, but I think this particular 23 bill is very seriously flawed in two aspects 6088 1 that was pointed out by my colleague, Senator 2 Stavisky, and then my other colleagues regarding 3 the prenatal care. 4 I think there's a discrepancy 5 between the 80 percent attendance and then to 6 get back an unrealistic 95 percent attendance 7 record cannot be achieved. I think without the 8 prenatal care funding for these young mothers, 9 it's going to wind up costing us 50 times -- and 10 I underline "50 times" -- as much money as 11 you're intent to be saving if you continue with 12 that. 13 I would urge my colleague to 14 amend his bill so that I can vote for it in the 15 future. Under the circumstances, I will vote 16 no. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Onorato will be recorded in the negative. 19 The Secretary will continue the 20 roll. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator 22 Oppenheimer. 23 (There was no response.) 6089 1 Senator Padavan. 2 SENATOR PADAVAN: No. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Pataki. 4 SENATOR PATAKI: Yes. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Paterson. 6 (There was no response.) 7 Senator Present. 8 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 10 SENATOR RATH: Aye. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 12 SENATOR SALAND: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Santiago. 14 SENATOR SANTIAGO: No. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears, 16 aye. 17 Senator Seward. 18 SENATOR SEWARD: Aye. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 22 SENATOR SMITH: No. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Solomon. 6090 1 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 3 Senator Spano? 4 (There was no response.) 5 Senator Stachowski. 6 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Yes. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford. 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stavisky. 10 SENATOR STAVISKY: No. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo. 12 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully. 14 SENATOR TULLY: No. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella. 16 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker, 18 excused. 19 Senator Waldon. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Waldon to explain his vote. 22 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 23 President. 6091 1 I have a feeling that what we're 2 doing here is similar to Les Miserables, and 3 that the people that we're looking to punish 4 with this legislation is not -- are not the 5 likes of Jean Valjean, of Johnny Jones and Juan, 6 Costa, Colon, Ruth Danches, the female head of 7 the household, but poor and white, and it 8 doesn't bespeak, in my opinion, of the 9 sensitivity of the true heart that this body 10 should engender to be the Jouberts of the 11 world. I would hope that somewhere down the 12 line there will be a change of conscience, and 13 that for a loaf of bread we don't, as a body, 14 jump into the pool of punishment in exercising 15 our responsibilities on behalf of the people of 16 the state of New York. 17 And I vote in the negative. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Waldon will be recorded in the negative. 20 The Secretary will continue the 21 roll. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright. 23 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye. 6092 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Secretary will call the absentees. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush. 4 (There was no response.) 5 Senator Connor. 6 (There was no response.) 7 Senator Galiber. 8 (There was no response.) 9 Senator Gonzalez. 10 (There was no response.) 11 Senator Goodman. 12 SENATOR GOODMAN: Negative. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon. 14 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nolan. 16 (There was no response.) 17 Senator Paterson. 18 (There was no response.) 19 Senator Spano. 20 SENATOR SPANO: Aye. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 22 the results. 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39, nays 15. 6093 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 2 is passed. 3 Senator Present. 4 SENATOR PRESENT: Can we go back 5 to Calendar 702? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 7 return to Calendar Number 702. Ask the 8 Secretary to read. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 702, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 3205-A, 11 an act to amend the Social Services Law and the 12 Public Health Law. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Markowitz. 14 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: I'm sorry 15 that I had to be out of the chambers, Senator 16 Present, and my colleagues, unfortunately due to 17 an appointment I had previously made, and I 18 would very much be honored if the privilege 19 would be extended if I could be recorded in the 20 negative on Calendar Numbers 702, 704, 705, 706, 21 708, 799, 801, 993, 994, 995, 998, 1133, 1238, 22 1239 and S. -- Senate 7371 when it comes out of 23 the Rules Committee. 6094 1 Thank you, Senator Present. I 2 appreciate it very much. Thank you. 3 SENATOR PRESENT: I think you 4 know the answer before you ask. I have to deny 5 your request to vote no on all those bills. The 6 rules of the house are that you be in your seat 7 to vote. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Gold. 11 SENATOR GOLD: I am shocked - 12 no, no. I understand Senator Present's 13 position, but I think it's important we try to 14 move this session along and we, unfortunately or 15 fortunately, do not have a procedure where a 16 member's called out in the middle of a day can 17 be excused for that portion of the day. 18 I know that Senator Markowitz had 19 some very, very pressing, urgent business, and 20 at least at this point we understand, since he 21 would prefer to be excused, that this way the 22 record is clear and tomorrow when the roll calls 23 are finished, I think Senator Markowitz will 6095 1 make a similar statement and the roll calls will 2 reflect the accuracy of his positions. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank you 4 for the comment, Senator Gold. 5 Is there any Senator wishing to 6 speak on Calendar Number 702? 7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Gold. 10 SENATOR GOLD: On the other hand 11 -- on the other hand, we have already called 12 702. Perhaps on this bill, if you wouldn't mind 13 just having the last section read -- if you 14 wouldn't mind, at least you could vote on this 15 one, Senator. 16 SENATOR PRESENT: Calendar 702, 17 may we have the last section read? 18 Call on Senator Markowitz. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 Secretary will read the last section on Calendar 21 702. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 23 act shall take effect on the 60th day after it 6096 1 shall have become a law. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 3 roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll.) 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Markowitz will be recorded in the negative. 7 SENATOR PRESENT: Senator Pataki. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Pataki. 10 SENATOR PATAKI: Yes. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Pataki will be recorded in the affirmative. 13 The Secretary will withdraw the 14 roll call. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you very 16 much. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Now, on 18 the bill. An explanation has been asked for by 19 Senator Gold, Senator Daly, on Calendar Number 20 702. 21 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, I 22 think I can best begin the explanation of this 23 bill by asking a question of all my colleagues, 6097 1 particularly those on the other side of the 2 aisle. 3 Does anyone in this house believe 4 that a family of two with $500,000, for example, 5 in mutual funds or in stocks and bonds should 6 have the birth of their child subsidized by the 7 state and by our nation? Does anyone believe 8 that someone with $1 million, $250,000, should 9 be eligible for the PCAP program? 10 There's silence in the house, Mr. 11 President, so I see that this bill should move 12 rather easily because that's exactly what 13 happens. 14 Mr. President, under the present 15 law, there is no requirement for someone who 16 applies for PCAP -- for the PCAP program, to 17 list their liquid resources. 18 Now, it's ironic, and this - 19 again, we're talking not of welfare reform here 20 but a reform of social service. It's ironic 21 that women who apply for PCAP and, again, their 22 income can range - 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6098 1 Gold, the explanation is satisfactory or - 2 SENATOR GOLD: Oh, no, no, no, 3 but I do have some questions after he finishes. 4 SENATOR DALY: I will not yield 5 at the present time. 6 Income for the PCAP program 7 ranges from -- for eligiblity for the PCAP 8 program, ranges from $18,000 for a family of two 9 to $47,000 for a family of eight. 10 Now, for someone -- when someone 11 goes down and applies for welfare, they fill out 12 a form and they fill out the entire form, 13 including one little section in there that says 14 "Resources", but when someone applies for the 15 PCAP program, they don't have to fill out that 16 part. They don't have to fill out "Resources". 17 They can have unlimited monies in stocks and 18 bonds and mutual funds, any negotiable 19 instruments. 20 The thrust of this bill is to 21 stop that. It's not right. It is not right for 22 people with that kind of -- with that amount of 23 resources to be subsidized by the taxpayers of 6099 1 the state, and that's simply what this bill 2 does. It does not take -- let me say that the 3 PCAP program is a good program. I support it 4 wholeheartedly. It does not take PCAP away from 5 those women who need the financial help and who 6 need the program. The bill simply imposes an 7 assets test on liquid resources in excess of 8 $15,000. 9 Remember, that's resources. 10 Income is separate. Income is additional for 11 the Prenatal Care Assistance Program, and liquid 12 resources are defined for purposes of this bill 13 as cash on hand, negotiable instruments, demand 14 deposits, time deposits within banking organiza 15 tions, stocks, bonds and mutual funds. That's 16 simply -- that's what the bill does. Such 17 accounts designated as IRAs are excluded, 18 Senator Gold. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Gold, you have the floor. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 22 yield to a question? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6100 1 Daly, do you continue to yield? 2 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Daly yields. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, in the 6 definition of "liquid assets", you've just given 7 -- in other words, if the person didn't have 8 the liquid assets, but like most welfare or 9 social service recipients or most people who 10 have this low income, their $2 million houses 11 are not counted, right, Senator? I mean, a 12 house is excluded, right? 13 SENATOR DALY: I'm sorry. I'm 14 sorry, Senator. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Their house. 16 SENATOR DALY: Their house is not 17 included? 18 SENATOR GOLD: Right. So those 19 people on -- you know, whose incomes are limited 20 to 100 percent or 185 percent of -- of the 21 poverty level, but who have their $2 million 22 houses, we don't count their $2 million houses. 23 SENATOR DALY: If you want them 6101 1 to sell their house, Senator Gold, I would be 2 glad to amend the bill. 3 SENATOR GOLD: No, I just want to 4 make sure that they can know that their mansions 5 are excluded under your bill. 6 SENATOR DALY: Yes, they are, but 7 their $1 million worth of stocks and bonds are 8 not. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Right. Okay. 10 Now, Senator, I'm just serious about the level 11 now. You've got this $15,000 level. I was 12 wondering where that came from. Was that - 13 SENATOR DALY: It was a judgment 14 call. 15 SENATOR GOLD: -- an arbitrary 16 number picked out? 17 SENATOR DALY: Remember, when we 18 talk in resources, we're not talking income. 19 SENATOR GOLD: No, we're talking 20 liquid - 21 SENATOR DALY: -- we're talking 22 assets, liquid assets. Yes, that was quite 23 basically a judgment call of what we thought was 6102 1 fair. If someone has -- can raise - 2 immediately get their hands on $15,000, we think 3 that they should be required to put up the 5- or 4 $6,000 that otherwise would be paid by PCAP. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Okay. Will the 6 Senator yield to another question? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Daly yields. 9 SENATOR DALY: Certainly. 10 SENATOR GOLD: In other words, 11 somebody can get -- somebody can have $15,000 in 12 the bank or in stocks, bonds, or 14,999 and 13 still qualify for the benefits, is that 14 correct? 15 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 16 SENATOR GOLD: But if somebody 17 has $15,500, they are going to have to pay in, 18 what? $5,000, is that what the bill - 19 SENATOR DALY: That's correct, 20 Senator, yes. I would submit in answer to that 21 question, Senator, that that's not the only 22 place you'll find in law an arbitrary figure. 23 You'll find it constantly if you would look 6103 1 throughout the statutes where we have to set 2 limits. Whether it be for tax exemptions, 3 income, to be eligible for certain programs, you 4 have to pick a figure, Senator, and we picked 5 $15,000, and you're right. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 7 yield to a question? 8 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator, 10 Do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Daly yields. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, if 15 15 thou... if you think somebody with a small child 16 or somebody in this predicament should be able 17 to have 15,000, then why wouldn't you put in 18 there, "If the person had 16,000 they might have 19 to contribute $1,000," but at least let them 20 have the 15- that their neighbor is allowed to 21 have, the neighbor who only has 15-. 22 SENATOR DALY: Senator, it's an 23 interesting thought. I might try that one next 6104 1 year but, as of the moment, Senator, I think I'm 2 going to stick with this bill which sets $15,000 3 as a cap. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All 5 right. Will the Senator yield to a question? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Daly, do you continue to yield? 8 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, your next 9 door neighbor finds out about your bill, your 10 law, and your next door neighbor has 20- -- has 11 $17,000 and says, "Well, wait a minute. I'm 12 going to have to fill out a statement, so I'm 13 going to make a gift to my sister of $2,000 and 14 then I've only got 15,000." There's nothing in 15 your bill, as I see it, that prohibits -- that 16 requires that any information be given as to 17 recent gifts or disposals of money. 18 SENATOR DALY: Nope. Senator, we 19 are still using -- we will use the form that has 20 been used, and you're right. Senator, there are 21 so many ways to get around so many laws. I'm 22 not saying we will be able to put in place the 23 perfect law. Of course not, we won't. But, 6105 1 however, I am saying that the state certainly 2 should go on record with the strong expression 3 that people who have the resources should not be 4 able to subsidize their pregnancy, the birth of 5 a child, through the state. 6 SENATOR GOLD: All right. On the 7 bill, Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Gold, on the bill. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, the 11 -- as with some of the other bills we've 12 discussed today, the bill is just flawed. It is 13 not thought out, and the reason it isn't thought 14 out, I think, and I certainly don't read Senator 15 Daly's mind, but if you're dealing with some 16 thing which is not going any place and you're 17 trying to make a political statement, you don't 18 have to worry about all of the details. After 19 all, 15,000 bucks, that's it. I don't have to 20 explain why. Somebody might say 20-. Maybe if 21 this really was going to become a law, somebody 22 would say, "Well, you know, a mother with a new 23 born child or somebody who needs this kind of 6106 1 care --" you know, it's not unrealistic to say, 2 "Look, let them keep 25,000." God forbid 3 there's an emergency or maybe their kid needs 4 clothing. Maybe the kid lives in upstate New 5 York and it gets colder than it does in down 6 state New York. Who knows? Maybe we ought to 7 at least say that if the person has a little bit 8 more than 15,000, that we'll make them apply a 9 little of their money but not all of their 10 money. 11 But the point is that the bill 12 isn't thought out. It doesn't provide for 13 situations where somebody can train, can give 14 the assets to somebody else to hold. It doesn't 15 provide situations where you can theoretically 16 take your assets and set them up in a trust fund 17 for the child with a friend of yours admini 18 stering it, so you rarely even keep the assets, 19 and when Senator Daly says to me, "Well, 20 somebody can always find a way to get around a 21 law." First of all, Senator, we aren't supposed 22 to create laws that encourage people to get 23 around them, and if somebody can get around your 6107 1 law, what's the sense of your law anyway? 2 Now, I understand, Senator Daly, 3 that there is one person that you found with 4 $160,000, and that got you in some way incensed, 5 all right? But we've had this before. 6 Senator Volker, I hope he's 7 recovering well. I look forward to seeing him 8 soon. Had one case in Erie County where an 9 assistant DA messed up and he wants to change a 10 whole Criminal Procedure Law. I think that's 11 just a wrong basis for making these kind of 12 judgments. There's no explanation. There's no 13 rationale for cutting this off at the number 14 you're cutting it off, and it is, in my opinion, 15 a knee-jerk reaction to an isolated case. 16 We do not, Senator Daly -- I mean 17 to send out a signal that the people who are in 18 this program are people living in mansions with 19 $150,000 in the bank and that these are all 20 wealthy people. It's just the wrong signal. 21 The program -- you say you like the program. We 22 know the program is helping people, so taking a 23 potshot at it like this, I think is a big 6108 1 mistake, and I want to tell you something, 2 Senator. The level of $15,000 is a terrible 3 level. People -- children get brought into this 4 world and people -- the concept that they don't 5 have needs and that $15,000 is a lot of money, 6 in this situation, is a wrong concept. It's 7 just a wrong concept, and I believe it is 8 unfair. 9 When you take a look at the 10 lifetime costs of caring for a low birth weight 11 infant, which can reach up to $400,000, you're 12 being unrealistic. Believe me, the one case you 13 found where the person was sitting on a lot of 14 money is not the case for the overwhelming 95, 15 98, 99 percent of these cases, and to come in 16 with laws that cast aspersions on a whole class 17 of people, I think is a mistake. 18 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Daly, why do you rise? 21 SENATOR DALY: I would like to 22 answer -- respond to Senator Gold. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6109 1 Mendez asked to be recognized first, Senator 2 Daly. I do have a list going. 3 The Chair recognizes Senator 4 Mendez. 5 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President, 6 actually, I am rising here in support of this 7 bill, and I'm going to tell you why, and I have 8 to refer to the New York Times article a year 9 ago whereby the point was made very clearly that 10 the Medicaid program, originally designed to 11 provide medical and primary health care to the 12 poor, had become a middle class program. Even 13 if it is only one case of a woman who shouldn't 14 have obtained the benefits of the PCAP program, 15 I think that this bill will do the following, 16 and that is, to delineate clearly that this 17 program, the PCAP program, was the sign so that 18 women who have an income of up to 185 percent of 19 -- an income of up to 185 percent of the -- of 20 the poverty level would be able to receive the 21 -- the prenatal care services of their children 22 up to one year of age. 23 Now, if we do not -- I feel, if 6110 1 we do not pass a bill in this instance to 2 protect this program so that this program will 3 serve those people that it was intended for, we 4 would be running the risk of having the same 5 thing occur with this problem in women or 6 families who do have economic resources enough 7 to -- through private medical insurance, or 8 whatever, pay their own way. 9 And so that in this instance, I 10 really must congratulate Senator Daly, for 11 putting forth this bill while demanding an 12 economic resource test was intended to simplify 13 the eligibility process. I don't think that it 14 will be -- that process will be that much 15 compounded by insisting that the people who are 16 entitled to receive those services are, in fact, 17 and will be, in fact, receiving them. 18 So, Mr. President, we cannot lose 19 sight as to why this program was designed here 20 in New York State, and that is, one, to provide 21 prenatal care to women who are not above the 22 Medicaid level and, secondly, medical services 23 for the child during the first year and, thirdly 6111 1 -- excuse me -- and thirdly, in an effort to do 2 something about the horrible statistics that 3 exist concerning the horrible disgrace our 4 nation has in having one of the highest 5 percentages -- levels of infant mortality. 6 So thank you, Mr. President. I 7 will be supporting this bill. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 9 recognizes Senator Daly. 10 SENATOR DALY: Would Senator Gold 11 yield for a question? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Gold, do you yield for a question? 14 SENATOR GOLD: Of course. 15 SENATOR DALY: Senator, your 16 objection to this bill would indicate to me that 17 you believe there should be no limit on income 18 either, is that true? 19 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I don't 20 -- I don't say there should be no limit on 21 income at all. What I say is that if you 22 believe that there are abuses because there are 23 people out there with large assets and that they 6112 1 do not need this program, then I think we should 2 make a study of that and you come before us with 3 some information which indicates that there is a 4 need to change the program. 5 The only thing that I have in 6 your memo that I see, Senator, is that there is 7 one case where you found somebody with 8 $160,000. So, based upon the one person with 9 $160,000, you want to put in a limit of 15-. 10 And what I'm saying, Senator, is that you don't 11 even say if you've got 16-, we take 1,000 so at 12 least you can maintain your 15-. You say if you 13 got 15,001, we're taking 5- or 6,000 and you're 14 going to go shooting down, and there's not even 15 equity among the people, and you don't provide 16 for people not to be able to hide their assets, 17 so you're encouraging some people to get in 18 volved in activities which they would not be 19 illegal and they wouldn't be fraudulent, but 20 there would be a way around the bill. The bill 21 in its present form, in my opinion, is not 22 drafted properly and it's not well thought out. 23 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, 6113 1 would the Senator yield for one more - 2 SENATOR GOLD: Of course. 3 SENATOR DALY: -- one more 4 question? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6 Senator yields. 7 SENATOR DALY: You thought it 8 perfectly all right for that one person with 9 100... family with $162,000 to qualify for the 10 PCAP program? 11 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I'm 12 telling you that I am as shocked as everybody 13 else that there's somebody with $162,000, but I 14 don't know all of the circumstances of that - 15 SENATOR DALY: Thank you, 16 Senator. 17 SENATOR GOLD: -- Senator, and I 18 do know -- I do know that if I were going to be 19 the one like Senator Daly who found out about it 20 and wanted a remedy, I would have handled it 21 differently. I would have looked into it a lot 22 further. 23 SENATOR DALY: Thank you, 6114 1 Senator. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Daly, on the bill. 4 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, we 5 have looked into this bill. Senator Gold takes 6 exception to the fact that we limited the 15,000 7 level, but I submit to you, Mr. President, that 8 if you'll check through the statutes in which 9 maximums and minimums are required, throughout 10 you'll find an arbitrary figure. 11 Now, the $15,000 to a degree is 12 arbitrary, but part of it, say, is based on the 13 cost of the PCAP program. Senator Gold points 14 to a case where there was someone who said the 15 cost to be $400,000, and if that's true, if that 16 happens constantly, why do we limit it to 17 anyone? Why do we have any limit on it? Why 18 shouldn't everyone -- everyone in this state 19 have the right to a PCAP treatment? 20 And certainly, Mr. President, we 21 know that we cannot go in that direction. We 22 can't go in the direction of increasing all 23 grants in aid to everyone as many would like to 6115 1 do. We all like to be very generous but, 2 unfortunately, there is a limit to what we can 3 spend, and I submit that even if there was one 4 case where a person took advantage of a good 5 program who did not require the assistance 6 because they were fully capable of paying for it 7 themselves, then it should be changed. 8 There's more than one case, Mr. 9 President, of such occurrences. I don't have a 10 list of them. I haven't gone looking for a list 11 because that in itself is wrong. The principle 12 is wrong and, therefore, we should change it. 13 We're supposed to be helping the poor. The 14 debate here all day has been on that element. 15 Here we have a hole where -- in 16 statute which allows people who do not require 17 state's assistance, who should not get state's 18 assistance, literally robbing from the poor 19 because they're taking money in a program that's 20 aimed at helping those of lower income. Very 21 simple. Say we pass this bill today, and we 22 will have filled that hole which, very frankly, 23 is very unfair to the taxpayers who have to pay 6116 1 for it. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 3 the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 5 act shall take effect on the 60th day after it 6 shall have become a law. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 8 the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 11 Gold, to explain his vote. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, I would just 13 like to remind some of my colleagues that on 14 this bill last year, Senator Connor and 15 Dollinger, Galiber, Hoffmann, Jones, Leichter, 16 Markowitz, Masiello, Nolan, Ohrenstein, 17 Oppenheimer, Paterson, Santiago, Smith, 18 Stachowski, Waldon, all joined Senator Tully in 19 opposing the bill. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 21 Jones, to explain her vote. 22 SENATOR JONES: Yes. I listened 23 to, you know, the debate and when Senator Daly 6117 1 asked the question, do I believe $500,000 of 2 assets, a person should get prenatal care; of 3 course, I said, absolutely not, but then I said 4 to myself, but do I believe with anyone with 5 $500,000 in assets would want free prenatal 6 care? Would they want to go to a clinic 7 setting? Would they want no private doctor? 8 Would they want to perhaps have a child that 9 could be at risk and not have the best care for 10 that child and, unfortunately, I came up with 11 the same answer. In fact, if I thought that, 12 then I think it should be the mental health care 13 that we should be concerned about for that 14 particular person with those kinds of assets. 15 We passed a bill recently about 16 HIV testing, Senator Tully's bill, which I 17 thought had some excellent points in it and it 18 emphasized prenatal care and that actually we 19 could make a difference if we could get these 20 women in prenatally and work with them, and AZT, 21 get them on treatment. 22 The child I guess that -- I feel 23 on this when the child born without prenatal 6118 1 care who then might be condemned to a lifetime 2 of needing care is a bigger risk to me than the 3 one person or two, whoever might sneak through 4 the system which would be a big mystery to me 5 why they would want to, but I would rather err 6 in this case on the side of everybody getting 7 this prenatal care, so I'm going to have to vote 8 no on this one. 9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Mr. 10 President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Jones in the negative. 13 Senator Oppenheimer, to explain 14 her vote. 15 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Please. We 16 have often said on this floor, I think, that bad 17 cases -- or maybe I've said, bad cases make bad 18 law, and I see that basically this law is in 19 response to something that happened in Niagara 20 County when a woman qualified for Medicaid under 21 PCAP with assets of $160,000. 22 Yes, there are -- there are 23 rotten apples that sneak into every barrel, but 6119 1 I don't think you, you know, attack the barrel 2 because of the one rotten apple, and I think 3 that's what we're doing here. 4 $15,000 in liquid assets is not a 5 great deal of money, particularly for the many 6 people in our society who, unfortunately, do not 7 have medical care, that would barely cover four 8 days in an emergency care situation. 9 I think to society at large, we 10 know -- generally speaking, we know that low 11 birth weight babies cost our society, our 12 country, our state a fortune. A low birth 13 weight baby can potentially have problems that 14 escalate into the millions of dollars. We see 15 more children of low birth weight with physical 16 disabilities. We know they have more learning 17 disabilities. It should be the cause and a 18 dedicated purpose of our society, of our state, 19 to do as much as we can to prevent low birth 20 weight babies and we have been moving in that 21 direction. I think the cost of perinatal care, 22 care prior and post-birth, is very small when 23 you consider the savings that can be made to us 6120 1 generally by having a population of healthy 2 babies born to healthy mothers. 3 I vote no. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 5 Oppenheimer in the negative. Senator Paterson, 6 to explain his vote. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 8 I would suggest that with only nine percent of 9 the women who were seeking this care under the 10 PCAP program, actually falling within even 100 11 to 185 percent of the federal poverty line, then 12 it would seem to me that those individuals such 13 as the woman in Niagara County who were abusing 14 this privilege that society has offered them are 15 really very few and far between. My concern is 16 that the roadblock that we're putting into the 17 system is going to impede the chances of the 18 overwhelming number of women who have very small 19 salaries and very few assets from receiving 20 care. 21 We first started addressing the 22 PCAP issue in 1990 and on July 2nd of that year, 23 we passed legislation allowing for the assist 6121 1 ance of women who fell within 100 to 185 percent 2 of the general poverty line so long as they did 3 not receive counseling to determine whether or 4 not they wanted to continue their pregnancy. 5 At that time we put a roadblock 6 into the law that it took a New York State 7 Supreme Court to strike down as unconsti 8 tutional. I don't think there's any unconsti 9 tutionality in this bill but I just think that 10 it is a barrier that would obfuscate the true 11 desire of the sponsor of the bill which is to 12 aid as many unfortunate women who, because of 13 their impoverished condition, cannot receive the 14 proper aid that they should. 15 Therefore, I vote no on the bill, 16 Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 18 Paterson is in the negative. Results? 19 Do you wish to explain your 20 vote? 21 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No, I - 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Voting 23 no. Senator Montgomery is also in the negative. 6122 1 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 2 the negative on Calendar Number 702 are Senators 3 Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Gold, Hoffmann, 4 Jones, Kruger, Leichter, Markowitz, Montgomery, 5 Ohrenstein, Oppenheimer, Paterson, Santiago, 6 Smith, Stachowski, Stavisky, Tully and Waldon, 7 also Senator Onorato. Ayes 38, nays 20. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 9 bill is passed. 10 Senator Connor. 11 SENATOOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 12 President. 13 Mr. President, could we let the 14 record reflect that I was called away from the 15 chamber for a meeting when the vote was taken on 16 Calendar Number 704, and had I been present, I 17 would have voted in the negative. 18 Thank you. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 20 record will show that. 21 Senator Paterson. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 23 I also, unfortunately, was out of the chamber at 6123 1 the time, and had I been, would have voted no on 2 Calendar Number 704. There's no changing that, 3 but I would like the record to reflect that 4 that's how I would have voted. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 6 record will show that you would have voted in 7 the negative. Regular order? 8 SENATOR PRESENT: Regular order. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Regular 10 order. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 705, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 13 5422-B, an act to amend the Social Services Law 14 and the Executive Law, in relation to Medicaid 15 fraud control. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 18 Explanation has been asked for, Senator Holland. 19 SENATOR HOLLAND: This bill 20 provides for an exemption of an automobile with 21 reasonable value from personal property used to 22 access Medicaid eligibility. Section 1 defines 23 the appointment process and duties, really 6124 1 codifies the Deputy Attorney General for 2 Medicaid fraud into law and expands prosecu 3 torial powers of the Welfare Inspector General. 4 In the first section, many of you 5 have heard stories from your constituents who 6 say, "A lady came into the store; she bought her 7 food with food stamps, and she went out to a 8 Cadillac or a Rolls Royce." This is to stop 9 that. 10 Under present law, if you have 11 some cash and you're close to getting on 12 Medicaid, you can dump that cash into an 13 expensive car, and all this bill says is you can 14 still have a car exempted from it but it has to 15 be a reasonable amount and that amount would be 16 set by the commissioner. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 18 Jones. 19 SENATOR JONES: Would the sponsor 20 yield to a question, please? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 22 Holland, would you yield to a question? 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 6125 1 SENATOR JONES: Senator Holland, 2 I support all of your issues as far as the car 3 and things like that, but you probably know we 4 have another bill in that establishes the 5 Medicaid Fraud Advisory Review Panel. Am I 6 correct in understanding that under your bill, 7 you're actually creating a new office which 8 there will obviously be a cost to and a fiscal 9 impact on the state to do that? 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Say that again, 11 Senator. I'm sorry. 12 SENATOR JONES: I'm of the 13 opinion that under your bill, you talk about a 14 Deputy Attorney General. I assume this is a new 15 office and there will be a fiscal impact to the 16 state, and if so, what would it be? 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, Senator, 18 it's not. It's just really codifying 19 Kuriansky's duties. He has them in regulation 20 now. This is take them out of regulation and 21 putting them into law. There are no new powers 22 or positions being created by this bill. 23 SENATOR JONES: Would the Senator 6126 1 yield to another question? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would 3 you yield to another question, Senator Holland? 4 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, yeah. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, he 6 will. 7 SENATOR JONES: I guess, Senator, 8 I need further clarification. It reads -- what 9 I'm reading in the bill says, "The Attorney 10 General shall appoint, employ and," et cetera, 11 "a Deputy Attorney General." That sounds like 12 a new position. Am I misreading it? 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: He already 14 exists. This position already exists. This is 15 Kuriansky's position and he will be appointed by 16 the Attorney General. He's recommended by the 17 Governor at this point. It's an existing 18 position. 19 SENATOR JONES: Would the Senator 20 yield to another question? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would 22 you continue to yield? 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, yes. 6127 1 SENATOR JONES: So your answer to 2 that is then there will be no additional fiscal 3 impact to the state to put this into effect? 4 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, Senator. 5 SENATOR JONES: Okay. Would the 6 Senator yield to another question? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would 8 you yield for another question? He will. 9 SENATOR JONES: Is this bill 10 supported by the Governor and the office of 11 special prosecutor for Medicaid fraud control? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: The special 13 prosecutor has supported it. I don't know what 14 the Governor's position is, to tell you the 15 truth. 16 SENATOR JONES: And would the 17 Senator yield to one more - 18 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, he 20 will. 21 SENATOR JONES: What about the - 22 now, the Association of Counties, are they in 23 line with this bill - 6128 1 SENATOR HOLLAND: To my 2 knowledge. 3 SENATOR JONES: -- as far as - 4 SENATOR HOLLAND: To my 5 knowledge, they have not taken a position. 6 SENATOR JONES: On the bill. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 8 bill, Senator Jones. 9 SENATOR JONES: As I mentioned 10 when I first began this discussion, myself and 11 several of my colleagues have a similar bill in 12 that would set up a Medicaid Fraud Advisory 13 Review Panel and this would not be a new office, 14 and again, I don't -- I believe the biggest 15 benefit of this is that it creates a much better 16 link with local -- local governments and the 17 local people dealing with these kind of Medicaid 18 fraud issues. 19 I believe in the past that the 20 Association of Counties has supported this 21 concept because under it, it would give them a 22 lot more input where there would be more of a 23 direct link instead of, again, us up here on 6129 1 high, kind of regulating or trying to deal with 2 the problems that are actually occurring at the 3 local level. I think the fact that there is a 4 cost in this, it would include a lot of people 5 within the state and I won't read it all but, 6 you know, I would suggest that perhaps at some 7 later time if this bill does not become law, 8 Senator Holland, you might want to look at this 9 and perhaps either include this piece or amend 10 your bill at some time to add this section of it 11 to give our local governments greater input into 12 the system. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 14 Dollinger. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would the 16 sponsor yield to one other question, Mr. 17 President? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 19 Holland, would you yield - 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: -- to a 22 question from Senator Dollinger? 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just so I 6130 1 understand it, under current regulations, is the 2 Deputy Attorney General for Medicaid fraud 3 appointed by the Attorney General subject to the 4 consent of the Governor? 5 SENATOR HOLLAND: The Governor 6 recommends; the Attorney General appoints. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Excuse me? 8 SENATOR HOLLAND: The Governor 9 recommends; the Attorney General appoints. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My only 11 concern here -- Mr. President, again, if Senator 12 Holland will yield is - 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Do you 14 yield to Senator Dollinger? 15 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- rather 17 than -- don't we set ourselves up for a public 18 fight between -- a public fight between the 19 Attorney General and the Governor if it's 20 consent language instead of one appointing based 21 on the other's recommendation? And I can see 22 that the Attorney General, assuming that worst 23 comes to worst and there's perhaps a division in 6131 1 the political allegiances of the Attorney 2 General and the Governor as there is not 3 currently, but if there did, I can see that we 4 have a political -- public political shouting 5 match over who should fill this position unless 6 there's some other way other than with the 7 consent of the Governor. The Attorney General 8 recommends somebody. The Governor says, "I 9 won't consent", where do we go to from there? 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: I guess you're 11 correct, sir, and I'm understanding that that 12 did happen in the middle 70s, as a matter of 13 fact, but there are a lot of political 14 discussions in this business we're in. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I guess I 16 would like the approach of one perhaps 17 recommending a series of names and that someone 18 actually finally appointing, but if you give 19 them the power to appoint and let that 20 appointment be subject to the consent, I can see 21 that we'll have a public -- potential for a 22 public fight over this that there may be some 23 better way to deal with. I'm not so sure that's 6132 1 a reason to vote against this bill, but I think 2 if you had, perhaps the Attorney General making 3 the recommendation, the Governor making the 4 appointment, it might be easier to accomodate 5 that or the Attorney General making the 6 appointment subject to recommendation by the 7 Governor or something, some other way to do it. 8 I just think this creates the potential for a 9 highly priced fight. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 11 Montgomery. 12 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes. Thank 13 you, Mr. President. 14 I would just wonder if Senator 15 Holland would yield for a question? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would 17 you yield to a question from Senator 18 Montgomery? 19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator 20 Holland, since you indicate that we already have 21 -- this position exists already - 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 23 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: -- it's just 6133 1 that it's not in statute; that what you're 2 doing, you're just - 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: It's in 4 regulation and we're putting it in statute. 5 This is -- Mr. Kuriansky -- this is the 6 provider's fraud section of the government - 7 whatever. 8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: If Senator 9 Holland would yield for a further question. 10 Is there anything in your bill - 11 you know, I just read from the press releases of 12 Mr. Kuriansky. Is there anything in your bill 13 that would require any change in the office as 14 it is currently? 15 SENATOR HOLLAND: There are - 16 there are no new additions or deletions in the 17 bill, no. 18 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right. 19 SENATOR HOLLAND: You know 20 Kuriansky because you mentioned that in the last 21 debate too, that you read his press release. 22 That's what we're talking about, the provider 23 section. 6134 1 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: On the bill, 2 Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 4 bill, Senator Montgomery. 5 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you. 6 I certainly am supporting this 7 bill, not because I think we need it, because it 8 seems very redundant to me, in fact, that we 9 have a position already. We have -- the 10 function of the position has, I think yielded 11 tremendous results for the state, and so I'm not 12 sure what the purpose of the legislation is, 13 except as Senator Holland says, he wants to make 14 sure that from this point and on into the 15 future, we will have a position that functions 16 as such, and so -- and, of course, how that 17 position gets appointed is -- I know there are 18 questions about it based on visiting your 19 legislation, Senator Holland, but I must say 20 that I am certainly supporting this because, as 21 I pointed out in my last explanation of my vote 22 against the bill that was before us at that 23 moment, this is where the fraud is. This is 6135 1 where we should be looking, where Kuriansky is 2 looking and not at mothers and their children to 3 -- to seize from them $25 or $75 a month 4 because they don't fulfill whatever it is we say 5 that they should fulfill, so we punish them. 6 This really goes after where we 7 can -- can experience some real savings, and I 8 think that this is the way we should be going, 9 and if we just did this in this Legislature, I 10 think that all of these other welfare bashing 11 bills would not be necessary because we would 12 really be going at the root of the problem. 13 So, Senator Holland, I disagree 14 with you on 75 percent, but the 25 percent that 15 I'm agreeing with you on, I think, will yield us 16 the 75 percent of the true savings in welfare 17 fraud, so I commend you and I'm going to be 18 supporting this bill. 19 Thank you. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 21 the last - 22 Senator Paterson. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 6136 1 would Senator Holland yield for a question? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would 3 you yield to Senator Paterson, Senator Holland? 4 Yes, he will. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 6 Senator. 7 The issue of why in your legis 8 lation the Governor recommends to the Attorney 9 General to make this appointment of the 10 deputized Attorney General for the investigation 11 of this kind of fraud, it occurred to me that, 12 perhaps in 1945, I believe the Legislature added 13 to Executive Law 63, Sections 8 and 9 which gave 14 the Attorney General actually the right at that 15 time for regulatory purposes to appoint a 16 deputized Attorney General, and so the Governor 17 by recommending to the Attorney General would be 18 exercising, I think an option whereas, if the 19 Governor were going to make the appointment, the 20 Governor would have to do that under Article IV, 21 Section 12 of the Constitution where the 22 Governor would be then directing the Attorney 23 General but then that deputized Attorney General 6137 1 would be classified as a special prosecutor. 2 So I was going to suggest to you 3 in your legislation that it is correct for the 4 Attorney General to actually make the appoint 5 ment and for the Governor to make the recom 6 mendation. 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'll certainly 8 look at that if it doesn't go this year, 9 Senator, absolutely. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 12 the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 14 act shall take effect on the 30th day after it 15 shall have become a law. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 17 the roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll.) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 21 bill is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 706, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 6138 1 6500, an act to amend the Social Services Law, 2 in relation to eligibility determination of 3 minors. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There's 6 a local fiscal impact note at the desk. 7 Senator Holland, an explanation 8 has been asked for. 9 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, Mr. 10 President. 11 Present eligibility standards 12 governing New York's public assistance programs 13 permits -- permit minors who are adolescent 14 parents to establish their own residence and 15 independently care for their children. 16 The goal of this legislation that 17 we're considering now is to keep the larger 18 family units together, in the hope of removing 19 the impetus and the need for adolescents to 20 become dependent on welfare in order to provide 21 for their children, and what this basically 22 does, this bill basically does is require, if 23 possible, young mothers and individuals on AFDC, 6139 1 home relief or veterans' assistance, to live at 2 home. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 4 Waldon. 5 SENATOR WALDON: May I interrupt, 6 Mr. President, and ask -- was someone asking you 7 a question, Senator? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would 9 you yield to Senator Waldon? 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Certainly. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, he 12 will. 13 SENATOR WALDON: Earlier, Senator 14 Holland, if you recall -- thank you, Mr. 15 President -- we were speaking on spousal abuse. 16 All of the data that I have seen indicates that 17 that syndrome, that behavioral pattern somehow 18 replicates/duplicates itself regarding troubled 19 children. 20 One might contend that someone 21 who has a premature pregnancy could be trouble. 22 I don't want to use a broad brush and say that 23 that is true, but to some degree, the informa 6140 1 tion I've seen indicates that children who are 2 seeking love and some sort of companionship 3 somewhere because they have such an absence of 4 it at home, find it in the arms of some person 5 and they become pregnant. 6 What happens when, in fact, that 7 is the scenario; the young girl has been abused 8 at home, she finds someone outside of the home 9 to comfort her, she becomes pregnant and she's 10 thrown back into that setting, but now it's 11 compounded because she's there with a child; 12 she's pregnant. She is in the eyes of the 13 parent or parents, perhaps, a really bad person 14 now. How do you manage that? 15 SENATOR HOLLAND: There are five 16 exceptions, Senator. We certainly don't want 17 individuals going back to an abusive home of any 18 way, shape or form. The exceptions are the 19 individual has no living parent or guardian 20 whose whereabouts are known; the individual's 21 living parents or legal guardians would not 22 allow the individual to live at home; the 23 individual has lived apart from his or her 6141 1 parents or legal guardian for at least a year 2 prior to the birth of any such dependent child 3 or prior to applying for assistance; the 4 individual's physical or emotional health is 5 endangered by living with his or her parents or 6 legal guardians or any other good cause for 7 waiving the applicability of this subdivision. 8 SENATOR WALDON: May I ask 9 another question? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would 11 you continue to yield? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, he 14 will. 15 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 16 President. 17 Senator Holland, how is this 18 exercised, this waiver, and when is it 19 exercised? 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: By the 21 commissioner, the individual commissioner. 22 SENATOR WALDON: So then it's 23 after an application is made to the commis 6142 1 sioner, is that correct? 2 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. I don't 3 know the answer specifically whether it's -- I 4 guess when the application is made, that the 5 young woman or whoever, would give a reason why 6 she couldn't do that at that point. 7 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 8 may I continue? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I'm 10 sure he will. 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 12 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 13 President. 14 Senator, just briefly a kind of 15 statement or perhaps a question. My concern 16 would be that before the application could be 17 properly addressed and the grievance 18 readdressed, further harm could occur to the 19 young person in question, and you're punishing 20 the person for not being there by the time the 21 person takes corrective steps to get out of that 22 very difficult situation, additional harm is 23 done. 6143 1 Would you consider, sir, doing 2 something so that there would not be a need to 3 make application first, to remove one's self 4 from that situation, if she could just leave and 5 after the fact make the application? 6 SENATOR HOLLAND: I would 7 certainly look at it, Senator. You know, this 8 is a very difficult situation. You've heard in 9 the news recently where people who are abused 10 one way or the other don't want to leave. 11 SENATOR WALDON: Some. 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Some, Yeah. So 13 I would look at it, absolutely. 14 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 15 much. Thank you, Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 17 Dollinger. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 19 President, would the sponsor yield for a 20 question? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would 22 you yield to Senator Dollinger? 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 6144 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, he 2 will. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm intrigued 4 by the concept of veterans' assistance 5 benefits. Could you explain? I don't really 6 know what those benefits are, and could you just 7 tell me why they are included in this bill? 8 SENATOR HOLLAND: What are the 9 benefits why somebody might set up their own 10 home? 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: No, no, no. 12 As I understand your bill, it includes not only 13 home relief or veteran assistance benefits. 14 What are veterans' assistance benefits? 15 SENATOR HOLLAND: Veterans' 16 assistance, could be, Senator -- it's not a 17 veteran necessarily. It might be that the 18 individual was a child of a veteran and received 19 payments of the veteran who is deceased. You're 20 still receiving veterans' benefits. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But it could 22 be a veteran as well, could it not? 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: I imagine it 6145 1 could, but I think that is precluded because 2 that individual has lived away from home for 3 more than a year probably. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. So I 5 understand -- Mr. President -- you could be a 6 veteran, you can go over and fight for your 7 country, but you couldn't get the benefits 8 unless you lived at home? 9 SENATOR HOLLAND: Only if you can 10 fight for your country for less than a year. 11 Under the bill, if you lived away from your home 12 for a year, you're not covered under this, in 13 any way, shape or form, okay? 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But if you 15 went into the armed services and you served in 16 the armed services for six months, and you were 17 honorably discharged because of a medical 18 problem and you decided you wanted to live away 19 and you were entitled to veterans' benefits 20 because of your medical disability incurred, 21 would you be required under this bill to live at 22 home? 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: It's 18 years 6146 1 old, I'm told. That means that they couldn't go 2 into the service and serve a year and still 3 qualify. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, it says 5 "no individual under the age of 21 who is 6 not married or --" 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, I know, 8 but the bill says 18. I have the same sheet of 9 paper that you have, but the bill says 18, no 10 individual who is under the age of 18. Can you 11 show me on the bill where it says 21? 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It says in 13 line 8 -- it says -- am I missing -- it says "no 14 individual under the age of 21 who is not 15 married...." 16 SENATOR HOLLAND: You're 17 correct. You're correct. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But I guess 19 my question is, Senator, did you intend it that 20 someone who is 18 years old, enrolls in the 21 military, takes six months in the military and 22 then would have to live at home to get their 23 veterans' benefits even though they've gone out 6147 1 to give their service for their country? 2 SENATOR HOLLAND: That's what the 3 bill says. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, I would 5 suggest, Senator, if that's what the bill says, 6 that's at least in my understanding an extremely 7 punitive measure for someone who said, "I want 8 to go out and defend my country; I'm willing to 9 give my life for my country; I'm willing to 10 fight for my country; I'm willing to do whatever 11 is necessary for my country, but I'm not 21 12 years old, and yet I'd like my veterans' 13 benefits, whatever benefits I'm entitled to, if 14 I'm disabled." 15 I, for one, have a brother who 16 went into the military at age 18 and ended up 17 disabled and only was in the military for about 18 ten months, contracted epilepsy, has been a 19 disabled veteran since, and my question is, does 20 he still have to live at home until he's 21? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would 22 you yield for another question, Senator Holland? 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I apologize, 6148 1 Mr. President. 2 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, yes. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: You would 4 still have to live at home? 5 SENATOR HOLLAND: I thought you 6 were asking me to yield for a question. That's 7 what he said. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, I'm 9 just trying to understand, Senator. 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Does it apply 12 for a veteran who is disabled for a short period 13 of time but not a year, and they come back and 14 they apply for veterans' benefits and they don't 15 get those; they have to live at home in order to 16 get the veterans assistance benefits? 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: I will look at 18 the bill next year if we don't put it all the 19 way through and look at 18 for this section of 20 the bill also, Senator. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. Again, 22 I apologize to the sponsor. I'm not out to 23 quibble, but it just seems to me that that, as I 6149 1 read it, wasn't the intent of what the bill was 2 designed to do, but it clearly does that, and I 3 don't hear you saying that you intended to take 4 however punitive this bill is and apply those 5 punishments to those who had been veterans. 6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Correct. 7 You're right. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. The 9 other question I have -- again through you, Mr. 10 President -- if the sponsor will continue to 11 yield. 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Will 14 you continue to yield? 15 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, he 17 will. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Who is going 19 to make all of these complicated judgments about 20 when a child is going to live at home or going 21 to be required to live at home? 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: It's going to 23 be made by the individual Social Services 6150 1 district commissioner. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. So, 3 can I assume that there will be an application 4 form that will list all of these exceptions? 5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. If 7 there is - 8 SENATOR HOLLAND: As the last 9 section says, any other good cause, they can 10 bring up one of their own problems that they may 11 have. Yes, that's true. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, I guess 13 my question is, and it's -- this is a very 14 complicated involvement of the Social Services 15 Department in the structure of the family, 16 trying to determine whether or not there have 17 been any living parents, their whereabouts are 18 known. This is an extremely complicated - 19 SENATOR HOLLAND: That's true, 20 Senator, but what's happening now is that when 21 somebody comes in and they're a young parent or 22 home relief at, I don't know, 17 or whatever, or 23 20, that they were just right now breaking up 6151 1 the family, whether the family wants to be 2 broken up or not, we're creating a new living 3 unit for that individual or that individual and 4 the baby, and what we're trying to do with this 5 bill is just encourage the families to stay 6 together. That's all we're trying to do. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I understand 8 that. Mr. President -- and I appreciate that. 9 I have no further questions. 10 Just on the bill, two quick 11 issues - 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 13 Senator Dollinger, on the bill. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- both have 15 been raised in this. One is I'm very concerned 16 about the veterans' assistance benefits. I 17 think that clearly is inappropriate in this 18 context and, two, I'm concerned because I think 19 that what you'll have to do, the inevitable 20 consequence of this is that you're going to have 21 the equivalent of family police in a Social 22 Services Department because someone will walk 23 in, file an applica- tion and say that "I meet 6152 1 one of these criteria and, therefore, that it 2 doesn't apply to me", and a good and proper 3 reviewer in the Social Services Department is 4 going to say, "How can I go out and check all of 5 those facts", and you're going to have the 6 Social Services Department out trying to become 7 a family police officer walking into families to 8 try to find out, are there no living parents? 9 Well, if they are living, maybe we know where 10 their whereabouts are. Maybe we can send them 11 to some other place. Why aren't children living 12 with their parents? I think that's going to 13 involve the state in an enormous quagmire. 14 I point out that there's no 15 appropriation attached to this. This is going 16 to be a huge and costly endeavor for local 17 Social Service Departments as they go out and 18 try to police the definition of families and the 19 sanctity of families and the obviously older 20 members of those families, and I think it will 21 be a potential real problem. 22 So, because of the veterans' 23 assistance issue and, frankly, because of what I 6153 1 believe is the enormous complexity of getting 2 the government involved in too many details of 3 families -- I understand the intent is to 4 encourage it, but I think you're going to end up 5 with a family police department that will be in 6 trying to figure out when these conditions 7 occur, when they don't occur, because eligibil 8 ity for independent benefits will depend on it. 9 The other thing about the bill 10 that I'll just close with is, it says that the 11 benefits then get paid to the adult -- for the 12 child that lives at home, the benefit gets paid 13 to the adult. What's to ensure that the adult 14 will actually transfer the benefits for the 15 child and the grandchild? I'm not so sure that 16 that's addressed in the bill either. 17 I appreciate the intent, but I 18 think that the draftsmanship at this stage 19 doesn't solve the problem that the sponsor 20 intends to solve, and for that reason, I will be 21 voting against the bill. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 23 Connor. 6154 1 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 2 President. 3 While this debate has been going 4 on, I looked into this veterans' assistance 5 benefits a little bit, and I discovered that 6 members of a veteran's family, spouse, children, 7 so on, are eligible for benefits when the 8 veteran has been disabled or killed, and then I 9 read the bill and, as Senator Dollinger brought 10 out, it says that unmarried, under 21 recipient 11 of veterans' assistance benefits has to live 12 with a relative, guardian or an adult-supervised 13 home, but looking into veterans' assistance 14 benefits, to qualify for them, you have to 15 establish as a prerequisite that there is no 16 legally responsible adult who will support you, 17 no parent, guardian. So you can't even get the 18 benefits until you've already established that 19 you don't have a parent or a guardian that you 20 can live with who will support you, and I 21 thought -- and Senator Dollinger covered the 22 instance of a veteran. Senator Holland seems 23 to think there's no way they could have been 6155 1 wounded before they were in the service a year, 2 but, regrettably, that's not so, but I started 3 to think about a veteran's widow who is no 4 longer married because the veteran is deceased, 5 who could well be 19 or 20, who could end up - 6 could have actually been living at home within a 7 year because of whatever reason, the veteran was 8 overseas, and then ends up, in order to get 9 benefits, has to go -- because whatever happens, 10 parent or guardian won't support her or him, has 11 to go into an adult supervised residence. How 12 demeaning. 13 I can't -- I don't understand 14 what the purpose of this bill is. Some of it, I 15 at least can see the purpose but I think, with 16 all due with respect to Senator Holland, Mr. 17 President, this bill goes far afield. It misses 18 the mark. It certainly misses the mark with 19 regard to veteran benefit assistance for 20 relatives who can't even apply for the benefit 21 unless they demonstrate there's no adult 22 responsible for them who's willing to support 23 them. 6156 1 I would really call upon Senator 2 Holland to perhaps set this bill aside and take 3 another look at it. I don't think we want to be 4 on record voting for this with some of the 5 ramifications involved. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 7 Holland, if we could just hold it up for a 8 moment, the stenographer has to change her 9 tape. 10 Senator Holland. 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator Connor, 12 I think you're just confusing the issue here a 13 little bit. If there was an existing family, 14 there's no intention to move them back into 15 another family. We don't intend to do that. If 16 there was no parent, then we might ask that the 17 grandparents do that, but an existing family, 18 we're not doing that and this bill doesn't 19 intend to do that. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: You can 21 read the last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 23 act shall take effect on the 30th day after it 6157 1 shall have become a law. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 3 the roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll.) 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 6 Paterson, to explain his vote. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 8 I haven't agreed with all of the bills that I 9 have witnessed today, but I do certainly 10 understand the intent of them, but in spite of 11 the discussion this afternoon, I still don't 12 understand the intent of this bill. 13 Just from a practical aspect, the 14 attempt to encourage a family to stay together 15 is laudable, but I do not understand why a 16 person who would be receiving public assistance 17 at this young age would even be interested in 18 leaving a family situation except that 19 statistically, overwhelmingly, the number of 20 times that they do is because they are running 21 away from some kind of domestic disturbance, and 22 so rather than rewarding the individual for 23 trying to establish at least that independence, 6158 1 we are actually discouraging it in favor of the 2 value of family unity, assuming a fact that is 3 not in evidence, which is that the family is a 4 friendly environment. 5 So most respectfully, Mr. 6 President, I vote no on this bill. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 8 Paterson in the negative. Results? 9 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 10 the negative on Calendar Number 706 are Senators 11 Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Gold, Leichter, 12 Ohrenstein, Smith, Solomon, Stavisky, Waldon, 13 also Senator Mendez. Ayes 46, nays 12. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 15 bill is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 708, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 7477-B, 18 an act to amend the Social Services Law, in 19 relation to requiring an address as a condition 20 for receiving assistance. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6159 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Some 3 body asked for an explanation. 4 Senator Gold asked for an 5 explanation, Senator Daly. 6 SENATOR DALY: Yes, Mr. 7 President. This bill was drafted after an 8 incident in New York City where, according to an 9 article from the New York Times, when 1800 10 welfare recipients in Newark were checked, 425 11 or 23 percent were listed with the same name and 12 Social Security numbers in Manhattan at the same 13 time from 1991 through 1993. As a result of the 14 investigations that were initiated, 21 Newark 15 residents were charged with grand larceny and 16 using false documents because of welfare fraud. 17 Again, I must say, Mr. President, 18 that that number, that high number, 23 percent 19 of the 1800 checked would indicate that -- to 20 me, that fraud is, indeed, a problem and it's 21 more than just one or two percent trying to beat 22 the system. 23 This bill would require that 6160 1 every employable home relief recipient -- I'm 2 sorry, I'm flipping to the wrong page. That 3 when applying for assistance, an applicant must 4 provide the district with an address. The 5 address can be a conventional residence or if 6 the person is homeless, the address can be an 7 emergency housing such as a homeless shelter. 8 It also allows the commissioner to deem 9 appropriate the site selected by - 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 11 Gold, why do you rise? 12 SENATOR GOLD: I'm sorry. I want 13 to ask a question but I don't want to interrupt 14 the explanation. 15 SENATOR DALY: That's fine. I'm 16 almost finished. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 18 Daly, would you yield for a question? 19 SENATOR DALY: (Cont'g) And 20 because of the federal -- federal law where we 21 cannot and should not deny anyone homeless any 22 assistance, the commissioner is given the power 23 to deem any site appropriate for the purpose of 6161 1 this subdivision. 2 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Would 3 the Senator yield? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Will 5 you yield, Senator Daly? 6 SENATOR DALY: Yes, Mr. 7 President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, he 9 will. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, you say 11 in your language, "a public shelter or such site 12 that the district commissioner shall deem 13 appropriate for the purpose." 14 SENATOR DALY: Yes. We give that 15 judgment call, Senator, to the commissioner, 16 again, to meet the federal regulations. We're 17 trying to tighten up the law. I have to think 18 that we will tighten it up. If you will check 19 very frankly now with DSS, you'll find out that 20 a person need not have an address to collect 21 welfare, that all they must do is show proof of 22 residency in the county of application and a 23 letter from someone in that county is sufficient 6162 1 as far as DSS is concerned. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Will you yield to 3 a question, Senator? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 5 Daly, would you yield for another question? 6 SENATOR DALY: Yes, Mr. 7 President. 8 SENATOR GOLD: When you say 9 "district commissioner", Senator, who is the 10 district commissioner you're referring to, 11 federal or state? 12 SENATOR DALY: Pardon me? 13 SENATOR GOLD: Federal, state, 14 city, county? 15 SENATOR DALY: We're referring to 16 the city and county. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Fine. Now, 18 Senator, my understanding is that under federal 19 law, somebody who meets the eligibility require 20 ments for Medicaid, for example, must be given 21 it even if they live on a park bench. 22 SENATOR DALY: That's right. 23 That's why we use the term -- that's why we use 6163 1 the word "site" in the bill, Senator Gold. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, 3 this is my question. Supposing you have a 4 district commissioner, and the district 5 commissioner is under pressure. They say, "My 6 God, we have homeless people living on our park 7 benches. I'm going to get them off the park 8 benches by determining that a park bench is not 9 an appropriate site." 10 SENATOR DALY: Yes. Very simply, 11 Senator, in that case, he would be in violation 12 of the federal -- of the federal regulations. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, if 14 you would yield to a question. That's easy to 15 say, but he doesn't, and then people don't get 16 it, and then people have to go to court. Why 17 don't we just -- Senator, what I don't 18 understand is why you are offering us language 19 which allows a district county commissioner to 20 make a determination instead of putting in the 21 law, language that would put us in compliance 22 with the federal law? 23 SENATOR DALY: Frankly, because 6164 1 the federal law states that eligible individuals 2 without a fixed address or permanent dwelling 3 must receive AFDC on a regular and consistent 4 basis, and the state must provide methods to 5 ensure that, and that's why we give so much 6 power to the district commissioner because you 7 realize that under the federal law, we cannot 8 deny any homeless person the assistance. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 10 yield to a question? 11 SENATOR DALY: Certainly. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, he 13 will. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, aren't we 15 also talking about finger imaging to try to 16 eliminate fraud in a lot of these cases? 17 SENATOR DALY: Yes, I understand 18 we are. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, if 20 we have a finger imaging program, doesn't that 21 take care of the fraud -- wouldn't that take 22 care of the fraud problem you were worried 23 about? 6165 1 SENATOR DALY: I think it would 2 help immensely, certainly. I'm very much in 3 favor, as you know, of finger imaging. The fact 4 is, Senator, that we do not have that at the 5 present time. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. On the 7 bill, Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 9 bill, Senator Gold. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, the 11 problem I have with the bill is a simple one. 12 The federal law requires people to be eligible 13 for a program whether they have an address or 14 they don't have an address. 15 There's a -- there's some 16 terrible old jokes and the bottom line of the 17 jokes is everybody's got to be somewhere, but we 18 know everybody's got to be somewhere, but to 19 allow a county district commissioner to 20 determine where people can be when, in fact, the 21 federal law does not make any such requirement 22 and, therefore, to set up a conflict between the 23 local commissioner -- as a matter of fact, I can 6166 1 see situations where the local commissioner will 2 start to put pressure on homeless people and 3 almost use this law as a zoning mechanism, and 4 the point is, we're not allowed to do it. If 5 we're not allowed to do it, we shouldn't do it. 6 I don't -- I can understand 7 trying to cut through it. I understand we have 8 been talking about proposals. I have even been 9 told that there may even be some breakthrough on 10 negotiations on a finger imaging, I don't know, 11 but this particular piece of legislation, I 12 think just puts us in a very difficult situation 13 as it applies to federal law. I think Senator 14 Daly acknowledges that, so I don't know why you 15 want to set up a confrontation to begin with. 16 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 18 Daly. 19 SENATOR DALY: I do acknowledge 20 that, Senator, that we have to work within the 21 context of the federal -- that's what we've 22 tried to do with this bill, and I'm not saying 23 we've closed the hole completely, but we've 6167 1 tightened it. We've tightened as best we can 2 and still be in compliance with federal 3 regulations. 4 If someone came up with better 5 language so we can tighten it even more, I would 6 be happy to work with them and improve it. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 8 SENATOR DALY: No. You have the 9 language available for improvement? 10 SENATOR GOLD: Excuse me, 11 Senator, if that's a question. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Wait a 13 minute. Hold on. Senator Daly, you have the 14 floor. 15 Senator Gold. 16 SENATOR GOLD: The answer is that 17 I'll work with you on the language. You just 18 said, Senator - 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Wait, 20 wait. 21 SENATOR GOLD: -- you're willing 22 to work with people, so I said, "Fine. I'll 23 work with you. Lay it aside." 6168 1 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, I 2 will be happy to work with Senator Gold on the 3 chapter amendments of this bill, and I hope we 4 can come up with a better one. 5 But for the time being, Mr. 6 President, since this is the best bill that we 7 can put before this house at this time, I move 8 its adoption. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 10 the last section. 11 Senator Dollinger, do you wish to 12 speak to the bill? 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. Would 14 Senator Daly yield to a question? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 16 Daly - 17 SENATOR DALY: Yes, Mr. 18 President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: - 20 would you yield to a question from Senator 21 Dollinger? 22 SENATOR DALY: Yes, Mr. 23 President. 6169 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What is the 2 basis for the minimum -- the anticipated minimum 3 savings of $1 million? 4 SENATOR DALY: Excuse me, Mr. - 5 what part of the bill are you referring to? 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think in 7 the fiscal implications in the bill it talks 8 about a minimum savings of $1 million. 9 SENATOR DALY: Well, the $1 10 million I mentioned before was what they meant 11 when they found those people in New York City 12 that were coming across from New Jersey and 13 collecting welfare in both states, that -- in 14 that particular instance, New York -- for those 15 violations cost New York State over $1 million. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. 17 Mr. President, on the bill. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 19 bill, Senator Dollinger. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, this 21 is another one of these measures that I under 22 stand the intent of. I think there might be 23 some savings. I'm not sure it comes out as $1 6170 1 million, but the reason why I stand up on this 2 bill is, I wonder whether this will actually 3 accomplish the goal of what you're trying to 4 accomplish, and it takes me back to one of the 5 earliest days as a lawyer, when I met a client 6 who was known as a "paperhanger", and a paper 7 hanger, at least in downtown Rochester, meant 8 that what they did is they went to residences, 9 to mail boxes and stole benefit checks. They 10 walked out with welfare checks or other forms of 11 checks, Social Security benefits. This man was 12 in the profession of forging signatures, taking 13 them out of mail boxes, forging signatures, 14 discounting the checks and then passing them 15 around, and he was known as the paperhanger in 16 the neighborhood. 17 To some extent, if you put a 18 residence on it, it has to go to a residence or 19 it has to go to a place. I think you may 20 encourage that kind of activity. If it goes to 21 a post office box, at least you're assured that 22 the person to whom the benefits are directed, 23 will actually get them because they'll have to 6171 1 come in and show proof of who they are in order 2 to get them out of the post office box. 3 I admit that it doesn't solve the 4 other issue of whether or not somebody from out 5 of state is making that application, but by 6 using mail boxes or the postal system, you at 7 least have some assurance that the person whom 8 the check is made out of -- out to will actually 9 get it, instead of allowing little paperhangers 10 like there are in the city of Rochester from 11 stealing the checks, so - 12 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, if 13 the Senator would yield? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would 15 you yield to a question by Senator Daly? 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I will. 17 SENATOR DALY: You realize, 18 Senator, that the bill does allow -- does allow 19 your checks to be mailed to post office boxes. 20 We don't prevent -- we don't prohibit that with 21 this legislation. As long as the commissioner 22 is satisfied with the site that the applicant 23 has put in his -- in his application, the check 6172 1 can be mailed to the post office. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. I 3 appreciate that, Senator. I -- again, Mr. 4 President -- as I've said on a number of his 5 other bills I'm going to support this bill, but 6 I think, again, you get the local Social 7 Services Department involved in very complicated 8 decisions of where these people are applying 9 from, the verification of the information on 10 their applications, where they come from, where 11 they live, where they reside. That's going to 12 be more and more complicated. We're putting 13 further and further responsibilities on our 14 Social Service Department, which is going to 15 lead to additional staff. 16 I hope at some point when we 17 perhaps get these bills in a position where 18 they're approved by both houses and sent to the 19 Governor, we'll send an appropriation along that 20 provides the additional staff to really make 21 this thing work which, I think, is the Senator's 22 intention. 23 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 6173 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 2 Daly. 3 SENATOR DALY: May I sum up on 4 the bill, unless one of my colleagues wishes to 5 add to the discussion. 6 Summing up on the bill, Mr. 7 President. The thrust of this bill is to save 8 the state and the federal government money. 9 Just that one little incident in New York City 10 should indicate that there is a great deal of 11 fraud going on by the use of -- of different 12 addresses, different locations, and that we 13 should do everything we can to try to reduce 14 it. I don't submit this as the -- the final 15 solution. I'm saying to you that this is the 16 best we could come up with at this time. 17 If there are any other ideas out 18 there which would be an improvement on this, we 19 would be most happy to take them under 20 advisement and work with you on them. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6174 1 act shall take effect on the 30th day after it 2 shall have become a law. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 4 the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 7 the negative on Calendar Number 708 are Senators 8 Babbush, Espada, Gold, Mendez, Montgomery, 9 Ohrenstein, Smith, also Senator Connor, also 10 Senator Waldon. 11 Ayes 50, nays 9. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 13 bill is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 799, by Senator Holland. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 17 Montgomery. 18 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you, 19 Mr. President. 20 I would like to -- unanimous 21 consent to be recorded in the negative on 22 Calendar Number 706. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 6175 1 objection. 2 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 4 Babbush. 5 SENATOR BABBUSH: Can I have 6 unanimous consent to be voted in the negative on 7 Calendar Number 289, 705, 706? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 9 objection. 10 Senator Present - 11 SENATOR BABBUSH: Excuse me, 12 704. If I had been in the chamber - 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 704. 14 It will show, had you been in the chamber, you 15 would have voted in the negative. 16 SENATOR BABBUSH: Thank you. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Regular 18 order. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 799, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 736, 21 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 6176 1 Holland, an explanation has been asked for by 2 Senator Gold. 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 4 this is the Wisconsin LearnFare program and 5 similar to the program that the Governor of this 6 state recommended two years ago and then 7 withdrew from. 8 It basically says that any young 9 people who are on welfare, 20 years of age or 10 under, who have not completed their schooling - 11 high schooling or GED would be required to go to 12 school. It is a demonstration program, would be 13 operated in 15 school districts throughout the 14 state in both rural and urban areas, and is 15 extended for 36 months. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 17 the last section. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 20 Gold. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Would the Senator 22 yield to one question? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would 6177 1 you yield for a question? 2 (Senator Holland nods head.) 3 SENATOR GOLD: Is this the 4 identical bill from last year, Senator - 5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir. 6 SENATOR GOLD: -- where Senators 7 Connor and Espada and Galiber and Gold and 8 Hoffmann and Leichter and Markowitz and Mendez 9 and Montgomery, Ohrenstein, Onorato, together 10 with Oppenheimer, Santiago, Smith, Solomon and 11 Waldon all voted in the negative? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Those are the 13 ones. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 15 the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 19 the roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll.) 21 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 22 the negative on Calendar Number 799 are by 23 Senators Babbush, Connor, Espada, Gold, 6178 1 Hoffmann, Mendez, Montgomery, Ohrenstein, 2 Santiago, Smith, Stavisky and Waldon. 3 Ayes 47, nays 12. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 5 bill is passed. 6 Regular order. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 800, by Senator Holland. 9 (Whereupon, Senator Kuhl was in 10 the Chair.) 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 12 bill aside temporarily. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 801, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 5406A, 15 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Daly, an explanation of Calendar Number 801 has 19 been asked for by Senator Gold. 20 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 21 This is an adaptation of the so-called Bryant 22 bill, a bill which was passed in New Jersey 23 which eliminates the increments in public 6179 1 assistance benefits for which a family receiving 2 welfare benefits would otherwise be eligible as 3 a result of birth of additional children. 4 The second section of the bill 5 would add to the disregards, federal disregards, 6 so that a person in this program or, I should 7 say, who is in this situation would be able to 8 earn and keep more money. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Senator yield to a 10 question? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Daly, do you yield? 13 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Daly yields. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, are there 17 any exceptions at all for a person where they 18 are on welfare, and they have a child to be able 19 to get more money. Are there any exceptions in 20 your bill? 21 SENATOR DALY: No. I'm sorry, do 22 you mean under this bill, under the existing - 23 SENATOR GOLD: Under this bill. 6180 1 SENATOR DALY: No. Which type of 2 -- explain what you mean. 3 SENATOR GOLD: If the Senator 4 will yield to a question. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Daly, do you continue to yield? 7 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 8 SENATOR GOLD: If a woman is on 9 welfare and is impregnated by rape, under your 10 bill, are you suggesting that she get the 11 abortion? I'm sure you are not suggesting she 12 have the abortion, Senator. 13 SENATOR DALY: No, I'm not, 14 Senator. 15 SENATOR GOLD: But if she doesn't 16 have the abortion, she doesn't get any 17 additional benefits. 18 SENATOR DALY: That's correct. 19 She can -- under the bill -- you're right, 20 Senator, the question you asked. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Can I ask you, 22 Senator? You say this bill came from New 23 Jersey. 6181 1 SENATOR DALY: That's where it 2 originated, yes. It is now the law in New 3 Jersey, signed by a Democratic governor by the 4 name of Florio, and also, by the way, the bill 5 was prepared and sponsored by a Democrat 6 Assemblyman by the name of Wayne Bryant. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 8 yield to just one more question? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Daly, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Daly yields. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Holland, 15 earlier, put in a bill that I think he called 16 the Wisconsin plan. Maybe that was Learnfare or 17 whatever. Does New Jersey have the Wisconsin 18 plan? 19 SENATOR DALY: I'm not sure, 20 Senator. 21 SENATOR GOLD: All right. On the 22 bill. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6182 1 Gold on the bill. 2 SENATOR GOLD: I think I should 3 congratulate Senator Daly and Senator Holland 4 for what is a massive research job. They have 5 gone to Jersey, to Wisconsin. They've gone all 6 over the country to find anything that you could 7 apparently characterize as clamping down on poor 8 people. And I just think it's really 9 ridiculous. 10 Senator Daly, when we had one of 11 your other bills, you said, "Gee, we can talk 12 about language," but you won't lay it aside. 13 Here's a situation where I would say the 14 predominant number of votes, when it comes to 15 the issue of abortion come on your side of the 16 aisle and, God forbid, some woman on welfare, in 17 a very poor neighborhood -- she would like to 18 get out of there. She'd like to be living on 19 easy street. But, God forbid, she gets raped. 20 You're saying, "Lady, abortion is terrible. 21 Have the child. But you can't get any more 22 money." 23 So now the woman has to say, "My 6183 1 God, I've been raped. If I get an abortion, 2 they tell me it's bad. If I have the child, 3 which they tell me I'm supposed to, what do I 4 do? I can't afford." 5 And maybe, Senator Daly, if you 6 had thought out this bill, you would have said, 7 "Well, all right if their certain kind of 8 circumstances." 9 And then, of course, Senator 10 Daly, the absurdity of it all is that in this 11 country and in this state, we are not going to 12 tell people to starve to death, and I don't know 13 what you are doing. I mean you are not really 14 going -- are you going to send these people into 15 homeless shelters? I mean what are we going to 16 do? 17 These bills are not thought out. 18 Senator Daly, whether you intend it or not, 19 these bills are mean-spirited. This is a mean 20 spirited afternoon, and I don't know why we're 21 doing it. I really don't. 22 I heard -- yesterday, I mentioned 23 that we're getting down near the end of session, 6184 1 and the newspapers are telling us not to worry 2 about the IRS problem, not to worry about draft 3 problems. Forget about the illegal immigrants. 4 We need crime -- we got to do something about 5 crime. 6 Well, this morning on the radio I 7 heard that Senator Marino must have been 8 listening, because I hear he held some 9 conference today about a crime package. I'm 10 delighted if we're going get some kind of a 11 significant crime package, but let's do it. 12 To spend five hours today, so 13 far, and we haven't even broken ice on this, on 14 bills which are nothing more than mean-spirited, 15 bills which take on the poorest, most 16 unfortunate people in our society and put them 17 through a bashing is disgusting. 18 Now, Senator Daly, I don't mean 19 that on you personally. 20 SENATOR DALY: Senator yield? 21 SENATOR GOLD: No, I'm not 22 yielding. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6185 1 refuses to yield Senator Daly. 2 SENATOR GOLD: I don't mean that 3 you are that kind of a person. I think you're 4 one of nicest, gentlest people around, and I 5 don't understand why we're doing this. It makes 6 no sense. These are not agreed-upon bills. 7 These are not bills that were going to stop 8 fraud. These are bills that are not going to do 9 anything. They are bills, for the most part, 10 that have not been thought out. They need 11 significant amendment even for them to be thrown 12 forward as ideas. 13 When I first came to this 14 chamber, for one year I was on the Codes 15 Committee; and to tell you the truth, I got off 16 the Codes Committee years ago, and maybe -- I 17 hope today it's run differently. But we had 18 people who would go to the Codes Committee; and 19 if it came -- like a bunch of crossword puzzle 20 addicts, every bill, one would take a look, and 21 they found a comma that they would change better 22 than the next guy's comma, and this one had a 23 word. Well, we've gone from that to legislation 6186 1 today where, if you're knocking the poor, if 2 you're trying to set up the poor as your 3 scapegoat for the day, we don't even care about 4 commas, we don't care about words. You've heard 5 one deficiency after the other on these bills, 6 and it doesn't seem to matter to your side. 7 They got errors in them? So what? We know 8 we'll see them again because the poor will be 9 around next year, and we can beat them up again 10 next year. 11 That's a heck of a way to 12 legislate. That's a heck of a way to 13 legislate. Even in the abortion legislation 14 that comes out, we see somebody, somebody along 15 the way says, "God, all right." If somebody 16 gets raped, maybe we'll make some exceptions 17 here, there, or the other place. 18 In your bill, Senator Daly, you 19 don't even care about that. You don't care 20 about that, either. Enough of this business. 21 If somebody is on welfare, these people just 22 ought to stop having kids, that's all. No 23 matter how it comes. I don't care whether they 6187 1 are Catholics. I don't care what it is. I 2 don't care what the religious beliefs are. If 3 you are on welfare, you lose your rights. You 4 better have an address. The federal law says 5 you don't need one. Well, you better have an 6 address. And you better keep out of bed. You 7 better put on a chastity belt or something, 8 lady, because I'm telling you we don't care how 9 that kid got started, we're going to take it 10 out. That kid ain't eating. 11 I really think we're going too 12 far. We really are, five hours of this so far 13 today. And I would say to my colleagues on this 14 side of the aisle, we didn't create this 15 calendar today. We didn't create it. The 16 Republicans put it out. You want to have your 17 day in court on this. 18 I would encourage everybody on 19 this side of the aisle, let's spend two hours, 20 three hours on each of these bills. Let's talk 21 them out. Let's get every innuendo out there. 22 Let's tell everybody what each of these things 23 means, because, otherwise, I don't know how you 6188 1 stop the floodgates of nonsense. 2 This bill is aimed at women who 3 happen to be receiving social services and get 4 pregnant, and all of sudden we say these people 5 are disgusting. We shouldn't have to give them 6 any more money. If the kid starves, the kid 7 starves, what the heck. 8 I can't believe these bills, I 9 really can't. And, Senator Daly, yes, I think 10 you are a terrific guy, and I feel ashamed for 11 you that you get the job somehow of carrying 12 these bills. 13 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Daly. 16 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 17 Don't feel ashamed for me, Senator Gold. I'm 18 doing what I feel is right. Right. Perhaps 19 you're not concerned about the fact that 68 20 percent of the children born in inner cities are 21 born out of wedlock; that now 30 percent of the 22 children born in this country are born out of 23 wedlock. And I submit to you -- I submit to 6189 1 you, Senator Gold, there are many who believe as 2 I do that the fact that you will increase - 3 that you increase the benefits to women who have 4 received aid is one of reasons. You might not 5 buy that. I do. 6 Certainly, also, Senator Gold, I 7 submit to you that I'm not the only black 8 hearted individual who thinks this should be 9 done. Your President does. Governor Clinton 10 proposed this three months ago. Mr. Bryant, the 11 man who drafted the bill and pushed it in New 12 Jersey, he is a Democrat with a liberal voting 13 record who represents the state's poorest city, 14 Camden, where 70 percent of the residents are on 15 some form of public assistance. 16 Let me tell you what Mr. Bryant 17 says. It teaches all the wrong values. I mean 18 it tells you not to work. Work is bad. It 19 tells you if you are productive it is wrong. It 20 teaches folks that we reward you if in fact you 21 have additional children. 22 This bill does take into 23 consideration, Mr. Gold -- Senator Gold, that 6190 1 perhaps they do need more money because it 2 changes the disregards. It adds to the earning 3 power of that woman who is on ADC. She can earn 4 and keep more money as a result of this 5 legislation. A 50 percent disregard over the 6 existing, with the additional disregard in the 7 federal rules and regulations. 8 Senator Gold, this is not a mean 9 spirited piece of legislation. I take strong 10 exception to that. It wasn't an easy piece of 11 legislation for me to put together because, too, 12 I care. But I submit to you, where else in this 13 country does a woman receive more money because 14 that woman is pregnant? No other place. Only 15 in welfare. 16 Mr. President. Oh, I'll stop for 17 the time being. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 19 recognizes Senator Jones. 20 SENATOR JONES: Yes, would the 21 sponsor yield to a question, please? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Daly, do you yield to Senator Jones? 6191 1 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 yields. 4 SENATOR JONES: Senator Daly, I 5 just want to clarify for myself the way I 6 understand this. If the woman has another 7 child, it would not change the fact she would 8 continue to get food stamps, she would get WIC 9 if she were eligible, all the things to care for 10 the child, just not an increase in cash 11 benefits. 12 SENATOR DALY: That is exactly 13 right. 14 SENATOR JONES: Is that correct? 15 SENATOR DALY: That's correct. 16 SENATOR JONES: On the bill, 17 then. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Jones on the bill. 20 SENATOR JONES: This is clearly 21 not a day that anyone is going to leave here 22 feeling really great about themselves or about, 23 I guess, the world or the state of our country, 6192 1 and it's clearly a day that your heart has to 2 part company with your brain. At least that's 3 the way I'm personally feeling about this. 4 But in this particular case, my 5 whole concern is the child, and I have got to 6 concur with my colleagues that except for the 7 cases that Senator Gold mentioned, a case of 8 rape or something like that, in most cases we're 9 talking responsibility. And I have to agree 10 that all of us have had to be responsible and 11 think, "Can we provide for a child?" And if we 12 can't, then you don't go ahead and have one. 13 So in this case, I have to come 14 down on the side of there does need to be some 15 responsibility on the part of the woman, or 16 whoever is involved here. I just have to 17 express my concern, and I think I've alleviated 18 that, that the child is going to be taken care 19 of because clearly the child is not responsible 20 for irresponsible acts on the part of either of 21 their parents. 22 So, you know, I have to support 23 this bill. I think it makes sense. I think we 6193 1 have to do something. And I can even relate an 2 experience. I happen to have a member of my 3 family who works for a probation department and 4 related to me a story, not too long ago, of a 5 situation, a client that she has who has two 6 children that were taken away from her by social 7 services because of abuses, and the person now 8 comes to see her pregnant. And, you know, I can 9 assure you that my daughter didn't find that 10 acceptable as her probation officer, and I'm 11 sure social services didn't either. 12 So, you know, I know there are 13 good needy people out there, and I can assure 14 you I don't feel good about many of these things 15 we did today, and I'm hoping that the system 16 will still be able to protect those who need it, 17 but I'm going to have to support this bill. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The chair 19 recognizes Senator Espada. 20 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, Mr. 21 President. Will the sponsor yield to one 22 question, please? 23 SENATOR DALY: Certainly, 6194 1 Senator. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Daly, do you yield? 4 Senator Daly yields. 5 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, 6 Senator Daly. The justification of this bill 7 speaks to some mainstreaming of values, that is, 8 that those on public assistance should be - 9 with respect to widely shared values be 10 mainstreamed because you or I, who are not on 11 public assistance and there is a new child in 12 our household, we don't automatically get any 13 increment from anywhere, so that they should get 14 used to this kind of system, also. There is no 15 automatic increment anywhere. And if they want 16 to get a job, then, of course, some of that new 17 income will be allowed to the family budget. 18 That essentially is your bill. 19 SENATOR DALY: Basically, 20 Senator, what we're trying to do is to give 21 responsibility, inculcate responsibility to 22 people. They have the responsibility of 23 preventing birth if they want to and they should 6195 1 not be given additional benefits because they 2 give birth. I think it's the idea of 3 responsibility, being responsible for one's 4 life. 5 And as I said early on, Senator, 6 this is tough love. This is not easy 7 legislation to carry, but somebody has to care. 8 Somebody has to do something. We have to change 9 the system. 10 SENATOR ESPADA: With all due 11 respect, Senator, I didn't get to my question. 12 The question, if I may, Mr. 13 President, was for those and I would imagine - 14 and I'm asking -- you are one of them that 15 really opposes abortion as a choice, as an 16 option for women - 17 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 18 SENATOR ESPADA: And your answer 19 is yes. 20 SENATOR DALY: Yes, I do. 21 SENATOR ESPADA: I'm having a 22 difficult time with respect to this issue of 23 mainstreaming of values with the implicit 6196 1 hypocrisy and contradiction that we would go in 2 a very passionate way and speak for that fetus 3 and represent that fervently and articulate on 4 its behalf and, then, when it does come into the 5 family household, then deliver a message that 6 you get no help from the public from the very 7 same people that fight for that fetus and now 8 it's a baby in a household with no milk or 9 support. 10 I'm having trouble reconciling 11 the value system that accounts for both of those 12 scenarios. 13 SENATOR DALY: The family, the 14 mother, the father if there is a father in the 15 house, the mother if not, has a responsibility 16 in addition to the state. That's the point 17 we're making. We're not taking Medicaid or 18 health services away from the child. What we're 19 saying is if you decide -- if you have a child 20 -- after you are on welfare now. If you have 21 two children when you go on welfare, you receive 22 the increments for two children or three 23 children if you go on welfare with three. After 6197 1 that, that's it. You are frozen at that level. 2 Note: You are frozen at that level. And if you 3 are going to have another child, realize that 4 you are not going to receive more monies from 5 the state for that child. That's what we're 6 saying, and I think it's two-fold. 7 By the way, in New Jersey there 8 was a reduction of 10 percent in births on 9 welfare after this bill became law. 10 SENATOR ESPADA: But just -- if I 11 may, Mr. President. I want to press one more 12 time. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Daly, do you continue to yield? 15 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Daly yields. 18 SENATOR ESPADA: Traditional 19 family values and, in a sense, the societal 20 value, our value, how do you feed that child, 21 off getting no assistance, can't get a job for 22 any number of reasons. We talked about child 23 care, transportation. We talked about a lot of 6198 1 issues. 2 Let's just assume, if you will 3 grant me this assumption, that there are a lot 4 impediments to getting some kind of part-time 5 job for this young mother, how in the absence of 6 some increase, incremental subsidy, how do they 7 feed that child? And if the answer is, "We 8 don't know; we don't care," how can we live with 9 that? 10 SENATOR DALY: Senator, you get 11 additional food stamps for the child. You 12 receive additional food stamps. We do not deny 13 them the additional food stamps, so the mother 14 would receive more food stamps for the child. 15 Senator, again it's tough love. 16 You have to do something to, as I said, add 17 responsibility to one's life. The state has a 18 responsibility. 19 In New York State, compare us to 20 other states. We are an exceptionally generous 21 state. But the point I made earlier on, I do 22 believe that we have to have sanctions. We have 23 to have punishments. Unfortunately, negative 6199 1 motivation that you mentioned before that I 2 mentioned also is a necessary tool, whether you 3 like it or not, and not to use it is not only 4 doing a disservice to New York State and its tax 5 payers but to those people who need that first 6 push. 7 Often, people need the first 8 push, and if the state can give them that and 9 say to them, "Now you got to go on your own. 10 You've got to contribute to your own welfare. 11 You have to contribute to your child's 12 welfare." As I said, we put in the bill where 13 you can earn more money so that the family can 14 have more income working 10, 20, 24, 30 hours a 15 week. We are cognizant of that. That was in 16 the New Jersey legislation also, and we 17 certainly want that in ours. 18 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you for 19 indulging my questions. Just one more if I may, 20 Mr. President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Daly, do you continue to yield? 23 SENATOR DALY: Certainly. 6200 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Senator yields. 3 SENATOR ESPADA: Obviously, there 4 are a number of these measures today, and maybe 5 in my going in and out of the chambers I might 6 have missed one, but if we are to be even-handed 7 and if from time to time, as you say, people 8 need a push, wouldn't you characterize this 9 whole onslaught, this whole package today as a 10 bit too punitive. 11 I mean I can't find one that 12 would add a carrot. It's mostly a pounding that 13 we're taking here today. 14 SENATOR DALY: No, Senator. May 15 I answer that? We haven't gotten to those bills 16 yet. I'm carrying two bills, with the FIT 17 bill -- we call it FIT, family in transition - 18 and the TTI, transition towards independence. 19 Those bills are new programs based on the CAP 20 program. We use the CAP program as the base. 21 What we're trying to do with 22 those bills -- I'm getting ahead of myself 23 here. We're trying to break the generational 6201 1 gap. What concerns us is the fact that, as I 2 said earlier on, 58 percent of the people on 3 welfare now are from welfare families, that 4 welfare is becoming a way of life in this 5 country, and we have got to do something. 6 Tough? Yes, tough. We have to do something to 7 break it. Those bills will show you where we 8 will add services. We, again, allow people to 9 earn more money to build up their own self 10 independence, so those bills will be coming up 11 later on. 12 SENATOR ESPADA: We look forward 13 to a close examination of those bills. 14 Thank you so much, Senator. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The chair 16 recognizes Senator Mendez. Don't see Senator 17 Mendez. Senator Dollinger is next on the list. 18 Senator Dollinger. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 20 President. Will the sponsor yield to one 21 question? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Daly yield to Senator Dollinger? 6202 1 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Daly yields. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm just 5 concerned about how this bill plays out in the 6 situation we discussed a couple of moments ago 7 about the requirement that children live home 8 with their parents. 9 SENATOR DALY: I'm sorry. 10 Senator, I can't hear you. Would you speak a 11 little louder. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Excuse me. 13 I'm concerned about how this scenario works out 14 when the mother of the child lives at home with 15 her parents as one of the other prior bills 16 requires. If the child has another child, has a 17 child, is it the mother who would then lose the 18 extra benefits or is it the grandparent that 19 loses the extra benefits. 20 SENATOR DALY: I don't know, but 21 you have lost me, Senator. Go back and work 22 through it again. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6203 1 Gold. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Point of order. 3 Is Senator Dollinger allowed to try to make 4 logic out of these bills as we pass them like 5 that and asking questions? No, no, no. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Your 7 point is not very well taken, Senator Gold. 8 Senator Dollinger on the bill. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again to the 10 sponsor. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Daly, do you yield? 13 SENATOR DALY: Yes, I do. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Daly yields. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: In the prior 17 bill we talked about children living at home 18 with their parents. 19 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And the 21 question came up about what happens when a child 22 in turn has a child. If under this bill you 23 would cut off the additional payment to the 6204 1 mother of the child but the mother is living at 2 home with the grandparent of the child, aren't 3 you really punishing the grandparent then 4 because there is another mouth to feed, but yet 5 there aren't as many benefits to go around? 6 SENATOR DALY: The grandparent 7 then would receive additional food stamps for 8 the child, so the food stamps would be 9 increased. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: They would 11 still be under the WIC program? 12 SENATOR DALY: That's possible, 13 Senator. Let me say yes. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one 15 other question for clarification. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Daly, do you continue to yield. 18 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 yields. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: This would 22 not affect the eligibility of the child for 23 Medicaid assistance for health care assistance. 6205 1 SENATOR DALY: No. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 3 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Daly will 4 yield to one other question. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Daly, do you yield to one more question? 7 SENATOR DALY: Yes, Mr. 8 President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Daly yields. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is there 12 anything that prevents a woman from deciding to 13 go off welfare for a period of time, and then 14 reapplying with an additional child in a new 15 application in which they say, "I now have a 16 child that I need coverage for"? 17 SENATOR DALY: No, it would not. 18 We talked about that scenario, interestingly, 19 Senator. And as you note, at the end of the 20 bill, the -- I have to find it myself. Somehow 21 I've lost it in this mess I have on my desk. 22 If you look at line 18, the 23 Commissioner -- well, probably 15, "The 6206 1 Commissioner shall apply for any waivers of 2 federal Social Security Act and other federal 3 law," and also 4, "The Commissioner adopt rules 4 and regulations to implement the provisions of 5 this section. Such regulations shall provide 6 for women who are pregnant at the time of the 7 application for public assistance." All right? 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I guess the 9 only other issue, though, is if they wait until 10 after they deliver the child and then they 11 apply, they're applying with the child. 12 SENATOR DALY: That's right. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So we may get 14 into a situation where we make this law where we 15 encourage women who are expecting children to 16 take a period of time off of welfare so that 17 when they file their first application over 18 again - 19 SENATOR DALY: We give the 20 Commissioner the power to develop the rules and 21 regulations in that regard. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I understand, 23 Senator, but it seems to me you point in the 6207 1 direction of -- if you put this system in place 2 what you have done is you've given an incentive 3 to women for a period of time, either just after 4 they become pregnant to take a period of time 5 where they are no longer going to take 6 benefits. Then once they deliver the child, 7 they apply for benefits saying, "I've already 8 got a child." 9 SENATOR DALY: That's because, 10 Senator, so many -- there could be extenuating 11 circumstances that we feel we should not 12 consider in the legislation. Rather, they 13 should be considered by the Commissioner in his 14 rules and regulations and in the implementation 15 of this legislation. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Certainly you 17 don't foresee a point - 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Daly, do you continue to yield? 20 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 yields. 23 SENATOR DALY: That's why we have 6208 1 rules and regulations promulgated. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I know, but 3 you don't foresee a point at which the 4 Commissioner would say, "I'm not going to cover 5 anyone who has a child"? 6 SENATOR DALY: No. This 7 legislation wouldn't allow that. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the bill, 9 Mr. President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Dollinger on the bill. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think this 13 is an interesting bill because it has a 14 provision that I have lots of questions about 15 that deals with the kinds of problems I just 16 mentioned, and then it has what I think is a 17 very good provision that allows particular 18 recipients to earn income that will not 19 completely, dollar for dollar, offset their 20 benefits, disqualify them for benefits, which I 21 think has some merit to it. 22 I'd simply point out one thing, 23 and this is a difficult issue of why people have 6209 1 children. But I guess one thing I disagree with 2 in a general sense with what Senator Daly said 3 about only if you are poor in the United States 4 do you get more income if you are on welfare. 5 Well, we do have exemptions under the federal 6 and state income tax which apply, that when you 7 have a child, you're entitled to an additional 8 exemption for that child. That exemption is 9 worth about -- if you're in the top tax bracket 10 is worth somewhere between -- I don't know what 11 the current exemption per child is. I think 12 it's $1500. If you are in the 40 percent 13 bracket, that's worth, oh, $600 or something, 14 comparable to the $59 that you would get for an 15 additional child. 16 So we do have a system in which 17 maybe we don't reward children, but we certainly 18 have a system enshrined in both our federal and 19 our state tax laws which says that if you have a 20 child the government is going to assist you in 21 taking care of that child by creating an 22 exemption which produces more wealth for you to 23 take care of your child. So maybe it's - 6210 1 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 2 Will the Senator yield? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Dollinger do you yield to Senator Daly? 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, I will, 6 Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 yields. 9 SENATOR DALY: Are you familiar 10 with the section of this bill which deals with 11 the additional disregard that we put into this 12 type of situation - 13 SENATOR DALY: Yes, I am. 14 SENATOR DALY: -- where someone 15 -- let me finish the question. Where someone 16 can earn literally and keep the monies that they 17 would earn, which they can't do under any other 18 situation in welfare? 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Absolutely. 20 Mr. President, I think earlier in my comments - 21 SENATOR DALY: Thank you. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Earlier in my 23 comments, I mentioned that that was one of the 6211 1 good things about this bill, that this combines 2 a back page that says some good things about 3 allowing recipients to earn income and not have 4 them completely disqualified from benefits. I 5 think that's a good provision. 6 It has the other provision which 7 I find somewhat troubling. But I just wanted to 8 point out to my colleagues that it's not just if 9 you are poor that the government may 10 inadvertently or intentionally subsidize your 11 election to have children but, frankly, the 12 middle class and the upper class also benefit 13 from that same kind of approach because we have 14 federal exemptions for children. And it seems 15 to me that if we're going to have this debate, 16 we ought to have it with an understanding that 17 we subsidize the birth of children in certain 18 income levels. 19 What this bill does is, I think, 20 a departure from that to some extent. I think 21 Senator Jones properly points out that Medicare 22 will continue, WIC will continue, food stamps 23 will continue. Frankly, I haven't made up my 6212 1 mind yet, but this is one of those that there 2 seems to be lots of sides and lots of dimensions 3 to. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The chair 5 recognizes Senator Waldon? 6 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 7 much, Mr. President. Would Senator Daly yield 8 to a question? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Daly, do you yield? 11 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Daly yields. 14 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, with 15 food stamps, what kinds of items might a family 16 on welfare purchase at the supermarket? 17 SENATOR DALY: You are aware - 18 you are familiar -- are you asking me, Senator, 19 what they can purchase now? 20 SENATOR WALDON: Yes. 21 SENATOR DALY: They can purchase 22 the same thing that they purchase now. Food, 23 things that are necessary for the child. 6213 1 SENATOR WALDON: If I may, Mr. 2 President? 3 SENATOR DALY: Anything that's 4 necessary for the child. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Daly continues to yield. 7 SENATOR WALDON: Would there be 8 an ability with the food stamp money to purchase 9 contraceptive devices? 10 SENATOR DALY: Pardon me? 11 SENATOR WALDON: Would there be 12 an ability with the food stamp money to purchase 13 contraceptive devices. 14 SENATOR DALY: Under Medicaid, 15 the Medicaid income that they receive, they 16 could purchase it under Medicaid, I'm informed 17 by my staff. Diapers also can be purchased 18 under Medicaid and contraceptives. 19 SENATOR WALDON: Okay. If I may, 20 Mr. President. Would that be a prohibitive 21 expense or nonprohibitive expenses? 22 SENATOR DALY: You have to make 23 that judgment, Senator. Depends on how many 6214 1 they need. You would have to make that 2 determination how prohibitive it is. That's a 3 judgment call. They can purchase the 4 contraceptives under the Medicaid program. 5 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President. 6 If I may continue? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Daly, do you continue to yield? 9 SENATOR DALY: Certainly. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Daly yields. 12 SENATOR WALDON: It is my 13 understanding that there are various and sundry 14 forms of contraceptive devices. In fact, when 15 my youngest son was on his way to college he 16 shocked me when out of the presence of his 17 mother he wanted to ask me for a special favor. 18 And being, you know, a worldly kind of guy, I 19 said, "Sure. What is it?" And he asked me for 20 this enormous sum of money -- at that time I 21 thought an enormous sum of money. And when I 22 was very pointed and said, "What the heck do you 23 need it for?" and he told me. I said, "The 6215 1 price of things have changed since I was a 2 teenager." 3 I don't know what could be 4 purchased -- are you blushing, Senator Daly? 5 SENATOR DALY: No, no, Senator, 6 I'm not. Almost. Ten years ago, I might have 7 but now I can take it. 8 SENATOR WALDON: The point I'm 9 trying to make, and I will ask the question 10 after is this could be a rather expensive 11 procedure, purchasing of contraceptive devices. 12 Would it be the pill? Would it be a condom? 13 Would it be the diaphragm? Would it be the 14 uterine device? I mean there are many ways to 15 approach this situation. 16 And I'm worried that under your 17 bill there is no proviso independent of Medicaid 18 to accommodate this need. 19 SENATOR DALY: Well, even under 20 existing law, Senator, really, it's Medicaid 21 that covers the family planning services. 22 Let me read that section of the 23 Title XVIII Social Services Rules and Regs, 6216 1 "Family planning services mean the offering, 2 arranging and furnishing of those health 3 services which enable individuals, including 4 minors, who may be sexually active to plan their 5 families in accordance with their wishes, 6 including the number of children and age 7 differential" -- I'm looking at more reasons why 8 my bill should pass, Senator, right now as I 9 read this -- "including the number of children 10 and age differential, to correct infertility, to 11 prevent or reduce the instances of unwanted 12 pregnancies. Such services include professional 13 medical counseling, prescription drugs, non 14 prescription drugs and medical supplies 15 prescribed by a qualified physician or 16 physicians assistant." So it seems to me, 17 Senator, that that well covers any needs a woman 18 on welfare might have for child planning. 19 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President. 20 If I may continue? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Daly, do you continue to yield? 23 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Daly - 6217 1 thank you, Mr. President. 2 I appreciate your indulgence. I 3 appreciate your patience. All of that was to 4 get to where I'm going to be. 5 SENATOR DALY: I thought you were 6 going somewhere. 7 SENATOR WALDON: There was a need 8 to go around Robin Hood's barn to get to this. 9 When Father Manion counseled my wife and I - 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Waldon, beg an interruption, would you, please? 12 I'm really interested where you 13 are now in answering the question or asking the 14 next question. I'm sure many people here are 15 also, but I'm having a very difficult time 16 hearing you. 17 So could we have a little order, 18 please. 19 Senator Waldon. The floor is 20 back to you. 21 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 22 President. 23 When Father Manion, Tom Manion, 6218 1 Holy Rosary in Brooklyn, counseled my wife and I 2 prior to our marriage, he gave me a term that I 3 used to think had something to do with 4 basketball or dancing on the floor, and he told 5 me, "Al, you are not Catholic" -- I am now - 6 "but if you are to be a good participant in the 7 faith that Barbara has lived by so long and so 8 steadfastly, you must practice the rythmn 9 method." 10 SENATOR DALY: Father Manion 11 talked to my priest, too, because I got the same 12 message. 13 SENATOR WALDON: Okay. And we 14 did. And out of our loving relationship, we had 15 three children. The point I'm making, Senator 16 Daly, and the point I made with all of those 17 other questions was is what about someone who 18 absolutely and unequivocally believes it is 19 their religious obligation to practice only this 20 method of contraception, and what happens to 21 them when they become pregnant under this 22 legislation? 23 SENATOR DALY: As I said, 6219 1 Senator, this bill does not discriminate. It 2 does not take into consideration religious - 3 nor should it -- beliefs. We have in the bill, 4 as I said before -- I'm repeating myself, but I 5 will because I think it's important. We have 6 the section of the bill which says, "The 7 Commissioner shall adopt rules and regulations 8 to implement the provisions of this section. 9 Such regulations shall provide for women who are 10 pregnant at the time of application for public 11 assistance." 12 Oh, I'm sorry. I'm rushing 13 through it, I guess, but I'll slow down a bit. 14 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President. 15 There is some noise in the back. I'm having 16 difficulty hearing any esteemed colleague. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Your 18 point is very well taken, Senator Waldon. 19 Could we please settle it down. 20 You are going to extend the length of this whole 21 session and debate. 22 Please continue. Senator Waldon. 23 Senator Daly. 6220 1 SENATOR DALY: The bill states 2 that once you are on welfare, any additional 3 children, your grant is not increased because of 4 any additional children, period. And even in 5 that case, Senator, you're right. There will be 6 no additional monies. 7 You know, very frankly, to be 8 fair, there should not be if others are denied 9 it. What we're trying to do, what they do gain, 10 of course, as I said before, is the additional 11 food stamps and the Medicaid coverage. 12 But what we're trying to do is to 13 really inculcate a feeling of responsibility 14 into all people. And if they have -- if they 15 are going to give birth, they have the 16 responsibility for that child. We have the 17 responsibility of helping them, but we can only 18 go so far. 19 And my problem is I think we go 20 too far in that we make it easy. We encourage 21 -- we encourage people to have children because 22 of the increased aid they receive from the 23 state, and I don't think that's right. 6221 1 I'm reading here in an interview 2 on "60 Minutes" with Mr. Bryant, who was the 3 legislator in New Jersey who developed that bill 4 and carried it successfully through the 5 Legislature and Governor Florio signed it, and 6 Mr. Bryant said, "No, no. The beauty is that we 7 took nothing from no one. If you came into the 8 system with children, they were all paid for." 9 In this bill that occurs. If you 10 come in with three children, you are put at that 11 level. If you have a fourth child, you stay at 12 the same level. It is only if you elected - 13 once you are in the system that you decided to 14 enlarge your family. And I think it is fair 15 that once you are in the system, we are going to 16 ask that until you get to self-sufficiency that 17 you not have additional children unless you are 18 willing to go to work to help finance it. 19 That's why -- I should say to pay for their 20 rearing. 21 And that's why we have as a 22 second part of the bill the ability to go to 23 work and receive even more, because we add a 50 6222 1 percent disregard to the existing federal 2 disregard, so you can earn more money than you 3 can -- and the other part of the welfare system. 4 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 5 much, Senator Daly. 6 If I may, Mr. President on the 7 bill. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Waldon on the bill. 10 SENATOR WALDON: My colleagues, 11 there are some in this chamber perhaps, besides 12 myself, who though some degree believe that 13 births are acts of divine intervention. 14 I know that Father Manion 15 believed that, and I know that Barbara DeCosta 16 Waldon believed that. And I find it very 17 difficult to do anything that would punish 18 someone for what may be in their perception an 19 act of divine intervention, and I believe that 20 this piece of legislation would inveigle the 21 religiosity of certain people and is just too 22 much of a burden, despite my belief in 23 separation of church and state, for me to 6223 1 participate in. 2 And so I will, again, for those 3 reasons, personal though they may be have to 4 vote in the negative on this bill. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 6 recognizes Senator Leichter. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 8 President. Just very briefly, because Senator 9 Waldon really made the point that I wanted to 10 make. 11 I have heard that in some 12 legislatures in this country there has been an 13 effort to limit benefits for children that are 14 born out of wedlock. I think this must be the 15 first time to provide that even where children 16 are born in wedlock that we here in New York 17 State are going to say we're not going to 18 provide benefits for that child, even though 19 that child, as Senator Waldon pointed out, came 20 because people were religious, followed their 21 faith, practiced the rhythm method which, as we 22 know, can lead to conception in spite of the 23 intent of the people. And we're going to say, 6224 1 "No, that child is going to be punished. That 2 family is going to be punished." 3 It's unbelievable to me that you 4 would put forth this sort of a bill that anybody 5 could conceivably vote for it. I assume there 6 will be some votes for it. I assume you my even 7 have 31 votes, but I must say I think it's to 8 the disgrace of the Majority that they would put 9 forth a bill that have sort. 10 You talk in your memo that this 11 legislation imparts the same set of values 12 expected of people outside the welfare system to 13 recipients of subject assistance. I don't know 14 what value you are talking about, Senator Daly. 15 I certainly hope it's not the value of this 16 society. I thought the value of this society 17 was charity, was care, was neighborliness, was 18 an appreciation that when people had some 19 difficulty, some problems, that we would help 20 them. I would hope that one of values of this 21 society is that we don't want children to go 22 hungry, children to go without care; and to 23 impose that sort of a punitive effect on 6225 1 children that are born in wedlock is 2 unbelievable to me. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Daly, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR DALY: Is that a question 6 to me? 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: No. 8 SENATOR DALY: Let me answer it, 9 if I may. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Daly, we have a list going. Next person on the 12 list is Senator Nozzolio. 13 Senator Nozzolio would like to 14 yield the floor to you. 15 SENATOR DALY: Would Senator 16 Leichter yield to a question? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Leichter, would you yield to a question? 19 SENATOR DALY: Would you believe, 20 Senator, that the primary thrust of the bill is 21 to help build responsibility into an individual 22 taking charge of his own or her own life -- in 23 this particular case, her own. 6226 1 And I don't know, Senator, maybe 2 you can tell me, how many families -- how many 3 families are covered under AFDC? We can't find 4 too many. Perhaps you can tell me. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 6 think the first part of your question was would 7 I believe that the aim of this bill is to 8 instill responsibility? 9 Not at all. The aim of this bill 10 is purely and simply to try to reduce costs 11 irrespective of the social harm and the misery 12 that you inflict on people. I think that is 13 purely and simply the intent. And to speak 14 about instilling responsibility when you are 15 talking of people who are in wedlock - 16 SENATOR DALY: I want to explain 17 that to you, Senator. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Can I finish 19 the answer, please? People who are in wedlock 20 -- in wedlock, following all the values of 21 their religion, and they have a child, and you 22 are going to say we're not going to pay any 23 assistance for that child. This may be a 6227 1 family, Senator, where the father lost his job 2 because the industry moved out of the state. 3 He's tried to look for work. He is trying to do 4 everything that he possibly can, but you are 5 saying, if you have a child, if you have a 6 mistake where you have a child, tough. 7 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 8 Will the Senator yield? Will the Senator yield 9 to one more question. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I Senator 11 Leichter, do you yield to Senator Daly. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 yields. 15 SENATOR DALY: Senator, do you 16 know any other families under a similar 17 situation, though not on welfare, receive more 18 monies because they decided to have a child or 19 accidentally had a child? 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, first 21 of all - 22 SENATOR DALY: Do you or don't 23 you? 6228 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm answering 2 you, Senator. First of all, as Senator 3 Dollinger pointed out, under our tax laws, yes, 4 they will receive a benefit. 5 But, Senator, the point of the 6 public assistance isn't, well, somebody has an 7 extra child, we're going to give you money 8 because we're trying to increase population. We 9 give them money because there's a need. Need is 10 the basis that we're dealing with, Senator. And 11 if a child is born and the need exists, we have 12 an obligation to help. 13 Now, you may argue, and I would 14 disagree with you but I could maybe understand 15 the argument, that if a child is born out of 16 wedlock, if you have a woman who's had three or 17 four births that are called illegitimate and she 18 has another one, but these are people who follow 19 all the values that you claim that you believe 20 in. 21 SENATOR DALY: Will Senator 22 Leichter yield to a question. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 6229 1 Leichter, do you yield to another question. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 3 SENATOR DALY: Do you realize, 4 Senator, that that child does gain for that 5 family additional food stamps and Medicaid 6 benefits? 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Oh, Senator, 8 that is so generous of you, and the only reason 9 that child gets the food stamps is because if 10 you had the power you would take the food stamps 11 away, too, because you don't have the power to 12 to do that, but you will take away any state 13 money you can. I think it's a shameful bill. 14 I'm amazed that you would put -- the Majority 15 would put this sort of a bill forward and pass 16 it. 17 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, 18 will the Senator yield for another question? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Leichter yield to another question from Senator 21 Daly? 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6230 1 yields. 2 SENATOR DALY: You think this is 3 a shameful bill, I gather -- you just said that 4 -- and how dare anybody bring this to the 5 floor. Do you know where the idea came from? 6 That the President of the United States has 7 proposed the same bill at the national level, 8 that the bill came from a Democratic Governor in 9 New Jersey and a Democratic legislator in the 10 New Jersey Legislature? That bill wasn't born 11 on the Republican side of the aisle - 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator. 13 SENATOR DALY: Let me finish the 14 question, Senator. -- nor with Republicans. 15 This bill came from liberal 16 Democrats with wisdom, I might say, not from 17 this side, but we think this is a good idea and 18 we don't care where it came from. Don't you 19 believe if we thought this was not a good bill 20 we wouldn't put it on the floor? Don't you 21 really believe that, Senator? 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, 23 obviously, you think it's a good bill. You put 6231 1 it on the floor. That's where frankly, in my 2 view, the disbelief occurs, that you could think 3 that this is a good bill. Senator, I'm not 4 suggesting that knowing the moral flaw in this 5 bill that you would put it forward. It's that 6 you are blind to how harmful and how mean 7 spirited this bill is. 8 But let me tell you, Senator, 9 there is a big difference between the bill in 10 New Jersey and this bill. The bill in New 11 Jersey was a bill that dealt with children who 12 were born out of wedlock. Your bill -- your 13 bill, Senator -- well, my understanding is that 14 that was the case. 15 Let me also say, I have never 16 considered New Jersey as the sort of state that 17 I would point to and say I want to be like New 18 Jersey. If you want do that, that's up to you. 19 I grew up in a city -- in fact, the city where 20 you were born -- where when somebody in driving 21 committed some error, we'd say "Jersey driver," 22 so that's how much we thought of New Jersey. 23 But, Senator, the basis of the 6232 1 proposals to reduce welfare benefits for 2 additional children is when the children are 3 born out of wedlock, but to penalize people who 4 live by all the values that I think you believe 5 in and you still won't pay for that child you 6 will still punish that child, that I can't 7 understand. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 9 recognizes Senator Nozzolio. 10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. 11 President. On the bill. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Nozzolio on the bill. 14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. 15 President. My colleagues. I rise in support of 16 this measure. It is not an original idea. It 17 is an idea, as Senator Daly indicated that was 18 fostered in the caldron of the New Jersey 19 Legislature by an individual who represented an 20 inner city district in Newark, New Jersey. 21 SENATOR DALY: Camden. 22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: That 23 representative, that Assemblyman from the New 6233 1 Jersey Legislature, said that he did not like 2 what was happening in his own district. He did 3 not like generation after generation to be on 4 welfare. He did not like the anesthesizing that 5 welfare seemed to give many families, an 6 insulation from reality that perpetuated a 7 generation upon generation dependency rather 8 than a movement away from social assistance. 9 This is not an original idea. It 10 went from New Jersey to Wisconsin to Ohio to 11 Michigan, where each of those legislatures stood 12 up and said that we need to reform the system, 13 not as some suggest to save a few dollars and 14 cents but rather to reverse a psychology of 15 dependence that we see, a system that, in fact, 16 places two types of reality before people who 17 are living in this state, one who are working, 18 another who aren't, and those two systems play 19 by different sets of rules. 20 Those who are working for at or 21 nearly minimum wage, working hard to put bread 22 on their table, to feed their families, to make 23 their children grow and succeed, those people on 6234 1 minimum wage can't to go their employer and say, 2 "I have another child. I need a raise." If 3 they do and if they are lucky enough to have an 4 employer to grant such a request, godspeed to 5 them. But in most cases, people just don't have 6 that type of choice. 7 About a year ago, on Sunday 8 morning, on one of those news magazine shows - 9 I believe it was one sponsored by David 10 Brinkley. He brought a camera crew into a 11 welfare office and asked one who was receiving 12 social assistance who was pregnant if she knew 13 that her welfare benefits would not increase as 14 a result of having an additional child what 15 would she do. Well, without blinking an eye, 16 the respondent said, "I would have thought twice 17 about it." 18 That's what this bill does. It 19 tries to make those who are receiving public 20 assistance to think twice about the choice that 21 every person that's working today must make, how 22 to feed our family, how to feed our family 23 through our own labors, not work to feed our 6235 1 family by simply having an additional child that 2 the state will take care of us. 3 That's not reality. This type of 4 system does not encourage independence. It does 5 not encourage self-sufficiency. It does not 6 serve the welfare recipient well. 7 Senator Daly's bill should be 8 supported, supported because it brings the 9 reality into those who are receiving public 10 assistance, not to hurt them but to prepare them 11 for the outside world. 12 I move the bill, Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Mendez. 15 SENATOR MENDEZ: Will Senator 16 Daly yield for a question? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Daly, do you yield to Senator Mendez? 19 SENATOR DALY: Certainly, 20 Senator. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 yields. 23 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you. 6236 1 Senator Daly, you mentioned that the percentage 2 of illegitimate children being born in the 3 nation is 68 percent. 4 SENATOR DALY: That's in inner 5 cities. It's 30 percent. Thirty years ago, 5 6 percent of the children born in this country 7 were born out of wedlock. That is now 30 8 percent total. When you get into -- it's over 9 60 percent -- I've been told 68 percent in inner 10 cities. That's what scares me. 11 SENATOR MENDEZ: Do you realize 12 that according to statistics published in the 13 metropolitan newspaper, the breakdown in terms 14 of ethnicity and race were that 30 percent of 15 the children born without his or her parents 16 being married are white; 38 percent, more or 17 less the same percentage, is African-American; 18 and 17 percent is Puerto Rican/Hispanic. 19 I am mentioning these statistics, 20 Senator, Mr. President, because I'm disturbed 21 this debate here might bring the perception that 22 the majority of the children that are born out 23 of marriage are, in fact, born to women who 6237 1 receive public assistance and that is a sad 2 stereotype, although I am not making - 3 classifying this bill as being bad or 4 indifferent because I understand that all the 5 Senators on that side of the aisle as well as 6 all Senators on this side of the aisle will just 7 basically want the same thing. What do we 8 want? 9 We want to do something so that 10 people that are receiving public assistance 11 would, in fact, learn whatever is necessary so 12 that they would be self-dependent and be able to 13 support themselves and their own children. We 14 are different -- we think differently in terms 15 of what would be the best way to achieve that 16 wonderful goal. 17 I, for one, feel that people who 18 for whatever reason are receiving public 19 assistance, since our Constitution states 20 specifically that they are entitled to receive 21 that help, I don't think that they should be 22 abrogating all their rights whether it is to 23 have one child, two children or more. 6238 1 I think that there are better 2 ways to deal with the issue. The economic 3 situation that we have had for so long has been 4 unable to provide jobs for people that do not 5 have certain skills. And in some fashion, our 6 own efforts to bring training to many of these 7 people have failed, not because all of them lack 8 intelligence but there has been something wrong 9 with the training or the training programs have 10 been wrongly designed; or they were, like many 11 years ago, the training schools making money, 12 the welfare recipients attending but getting 13 ready for jobs that were nonexistent. 14 The issue of the legitimacy has 15 to do, again, as we all know, with the breaking 16 down of certain mores accepted by all in our 17 society, let's say, of 30 and 40 years ago and 18 they are no longer there. And all these 19 institutional changes within our society has 20 been responsible for a totally new world in 21 which -- that we have to recognize if we want to 22 make a dent in resolving these kinds of issues. 23 And I tell you, Mr. President, 6239 1 the fact remains that welfare has been for many, 2 many years a political football. At some points 3 in time, the Democrats have used it. At other 4 points in time, the Republicans have used it. 5 So we on this side of the aisle are not sitting 6 on the right side of God. Neither are you 7 sitting on the other side of the aisle. 8 So, again, I will not support 9 this bill. I think it's well intended, but 10 again I must say and must finish by saying that 11 the road to hell at times is paved with so many 12 wonderful intentions. This is one case which I 13 think will not resolve the problem although the 14 intentions are good. 15 Thank you, Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 17 any other Senator wishing to speak on this 18 bill? Senator Daly to close. 19 SENATOR DALY: Yes, just briefly 20 Mr. President, if I may close. There are some 21 statistics that I think are worth mentioning. 22 First of all to cite again, President Clinton, 23 who said recently that at the rate we are going 6240 1 in less than ten years more than 50 percent - 2 50 percent of children born will be born to 3 unmarried mothers. 4 Ladies and gentlemen, Joslyn 5 Elders often cites a 1988 survey in which 87 6 percent of unwed teenage mothers said that their 7 babies births were intended. 8 One last statistic. Where 50 9 percent of the women on ADC at the present time 10 all went on ADC as a teenager. 11 Now, those are facts that we 12 should very seriously think about, my 13 colleagues, because, very frankly, there is a 14 major concern here that we haven't discussed at 15 any great depth. We have gone to the fact that 16 -- we have gone to some -- a little name 17 calling that those of us who carry this bill on 18 the floor today are rather callous and hard 19 hearted. Certainly that was indicated by some 20 of the comments that were made. 21 But maybe it's because we also - 22 maybe we care. Maybe the fact that the American 23 family is deteriorating at such a rapid rate 6241 1 that we are very, very concerned. We should be, 2 because, basically, that's the cell of society; 3 and if our families continue to deteriorate in 4 this country, believe me, this country will go 5 downhill rapidly. 6 Now, I'm not saying that this 7 bill is going to solve that problem, not at all, 8 but I'm saying that we must be aware of the 9 situation that is occurring out there. More 10 importantly, we have to take our heads out of 11 the sand and realize that we must take action at 12 the state and federal level to do something, to 13 do something to shore up the family structure in 14 this country. 15 And having anything in law that 16 encourages or increases the opportunity for 17 teenagers out of wed -- I should say young 18 ladies having children out of wedlock is 19 something that we should change. We do care 20 over on this side of the aisle, believe it or 21 not. Perhaps we have a different approach than 22 our colleagues on the other side, but we do have 23 strong feelings and those feelings are coming 6242 1 out on the floor today, and they concern 2 themselves with what the present welfare system 3 is doing to the people on it, and it concerns 4 itself with what the present welfare system is 5 doing to our family structures in this country, 6 and we had better be concerned. 7 Someone had better be concerned. 8 Someone had better be willing to stand up and 9 carry what we all consider tough bills, because 10 it's in the -- pardon me, Senator. Do you 11 want - 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Mendez, why do you rise. 14 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator yield 15 for another question. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Would 17 Senator Daly yield to another question. 18 SENATOR DALY: Yes, I will, Mr. 19 President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 yields. 22 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator Daly, do 23 you remember when Nixon was the President that 6243 1 he presented a plan. He called it reversed - 2 SENATOR DALY: -- "guaranteed 3 annual income." 4 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes. 5 SENATOR DALY: And I supported - 6 SENATOR MENDEZ: That would have 7 made it possible for families in need to receive 8 monies, sort of directly bypassing the huge 9 bureaucracy that we have managed to create. Do 10 you know that of every dollar that is assigned 11 to provide services to needy families and 12 children, only 23 cents go to them and the rest, 13 78 cents of those monies, go to the 14 professionals and the big bureaucracy pushing 15 paper from one desk to another? 16 Can you imagine how much we could 17 save if we could reduce that enormous 18 bureaucracy and maybe re-examine what President 19 Nixon, may he rest in peace, idea was at the 20 time. 21 SENATOR DALY: Senator, I 22 couldn't agree with you more. I strongly 23 supported it. Unfortunately, if I remember 6244 1 correctly Senators McGovern and Kennedy, thought 2 what President Nixon wanted as a ceiling was 3 much too low, and they could never reach an 4 agreement. 5 But I agree, Senator, and I felt 6 that the country did make a bad mistake without 7 going to guaranteed annual income. 8 Mr. President. Let me finish my 9 statement. 10 I don't know if what we have here 11 on the floor today is going to improve the 12 situation greatly. I think it will help 13 immensely. Maybe what we have is not the 14 answer, but it's an attempt to attack a problem 15 that we must have the courage to attack. If we 16 continue to allow the present welfare system to 17 exist as it exists then we are destroying, 18 literally destroying, millions of born and 19 unborn to a life -- I should say to an existence 20 not a life. 21 And it's our responsibility to do 22 everything that we can to change the system. If 23 you on the other side of the aisle have 6245 1 recommendations on how you think the system 2 should be changed to be improved, then tell us. 3 We were saying that it needs two things. It 4 needs motivation, number 1, both negative and - 5 unfortunately -- and positive. 6 And you're right. A lot of these 7 bills have sanctions in them, because we feel 8 it's human nature. You have to have, as we call 9 it, the carrot and the stick. That's human 10 nature. I'm not denigrating anyone. That's 11 human nature, and we have to recognize it. 12 And, again, Mr. President, we 13 have to have the courage to stand up and look at 14 what's happening today and what's happened in 15 the last ten years and the deterioration, 16 really, of our society and change it. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 18 will read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect the first day of the tenth 21 month after it shall have become a law. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 23 roll. 6246 1 SENATOR SOLOMON: Mr. President. 2 Call my name. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Solomon. 5 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. To explain my vote. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Solomon to explain his vote. 9 SENATOR SOLOMON: I'm going to 10 vote against this bill because there is one 11 provision in this bill where we have married 12 families, which as far as I'm concerned 13 discriminates against the constituency that I 14 represent, and that's the orthodox Jewish 15 constituency. In my district where the average 16 family is six or seven children, where in fact 17 there might be a situation where they do go on 18 public assistance, in this bill where you have 19 in-wedlock children born to a marriage, they are 20 going to lose benefits. And the fact of the 21 matter is with the economy today where we've had 22 large employers in our community -- such as the 23 47th Street Photo have 200 people in my 6247 1 community get unemployed at once, this bill can 2 eventually discriminate against many of those 3 people, and we've had that situation. 4 And I think that's one of basic 5 problems with this bill. It discriminates 6 against religious -- specifically those that are 7 orthodox that have large families that are on 8 public assistance, and that's the safety net 9 that's out there to help people, and it's taking 10 one group and cutting a big hole in that safety 11 net because of their religious beliefs. 12 I vote no. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Solomon in the negative. 15 Senator Connor to explain his 16 vote. 17 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. I hate to interject a different 19 controversial issue into this debate; but, you 20 know, every year we have the debate about 21 Medicaid funding for abortion, and I think just 22 about every year I articulate my viewpoint, 23 allowing for my personal opinion as well as a 6248 1 public policy statement. 2 But one of the things I have 3 always said is there must be other ways to 4 discourage abortion, to certainly not make it 5 attractive to people, besides cutting off 6 funding that discriminates against the poor. 7 And this, it seems to me, is an anti-family 8 measure. This is a step -- for those of you who 9 feel strongly that there should not be abortion 10 or there should be less abortions, you are 11 taking a giant step backwards. 12 I would favor something that 13 says, you know, you get more money. And some 14 nations do this. The more children you have - 15 no matter how they got there, the more children 16 you have we give you more money to support 17 them. They are our future. I don't think we 18 ought to have penalties for people who have 19 children. 20 There are countries, China 21 regrettably, and other countries, where the hand 22 of government comes in and in an attempt to 23 control population, or whatever, is very heavy 6249 1 handed. I think, and interestingly enough, this 2 measure is directed at some of the same 3 population that the other measure you proposed 4 as part of the budget is. 5 I think this is a step in the 6 wrong direction. I think we ought to not 7 penalize people for giving birth to children. 8 We ought to figure out ways to help those 9 children grow, thrive, be educated, and take 10 their place in society. 11 I vote no. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Connor will be recorded in the negative. 14 Senator Leichter to explain his 15 vote. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 17 President. Senator Daly and I before had a 18 little debate about what the New Jersey law is, 19 and let me just clarify. It's true the New 20 Jersey law does not provide, as such, that it's 21 children born out of wedlock, but it provides 22 that it's children who are the aid to dependent 23 children category which by definition are single 6250 1 mothers. 2 This bill goes beyond that 3 because it also covers families, so it covers an 4 Aid to Dependent Children Program which is 5 available for families where you have a father 6 and a mother and the father may be unemployed. 7 And, you know, for Senator 8 Nozzolio to get up and say, well, this is a 9 society of some people who work and some people 10 who don't work. Senator, there's a lot of 11 people who are as motivated to work as you are 12 or I am who can not find jobs. And what I hear 13 is sort of like the haves telling the have nots 14 we're not going to do anything for you. We're 15 tired of you. 16 I just reject that approach, and 17 particularly in this instance where people who 18 live according to every moral value that this 19 society possesses and to say to them you have 20 another child, let that child go hungry except 21 insofar as they can get food stamps because we 22 can't take their food stamps along. I just 23 can't believe that this chamber would pass that 6251 1 sort of a bill. 2 I vote in the negative. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Leichter will be recorded in the negative. 5 Senator Espada to explain his 6 vote. 7 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. 9 We hear barbaric stories of other 10 countries caning children, forced sterilization, 11 mutilation, indeed even genocide. We frown on 12 those kinds of stories, those experiences in 13 this country. 14 And yet when faced with this 15 premise, this premise being that we have inter 16 generational welfare dependency, and people 17 speak to this as though they really believe it 18 that, in fact, women consciously go about having 19 more children because they want $59 or $72 added 20 to their budget. It's that kind of falsehood, 21 that kind of false premise, that kind of 22 dangerous justification for what we want to do, 23 albeit with the best of intentions, that really 6252 1 creates a very dangerous and barbaric society. 2 So in the interest of our 3 society, we ask that we return to some of the 4 coherent policies that start to make a presence 5 in some of the other bills that we'll discuss 6 later on and really leave this aside for more 7 barbaric, less civilized societies than ours. 8 We vote no. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Espada to be recorded in the negative. 11 Senator DeFrancisco to explain 12 his vote. 13 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: You know, I 14 don't know what bill we're talking about, but I 15 don't see anything here about genocide, caning, 16 mutilation, and all of these other things that 17 this has been likend to. I'm not quite sure 18 this has anything to do with abortion or 19 abortion funding by Medicaid. I may be -- maybe 20 I'm on the wrong bill, but I think it's Calendar 21 Number 801. 22 What this bill does not 23 discriminate against anybody. I don't see 6253 1 anything about Orthodox Jews in this particular 2 bill. I guess you can even make the argument, 3 if you want to talk about discrimination, that 4 literacy tests discriminate against those who 5 can't read and write, but you can make an 6 argument about anything I guess. 7 All this bill really does is what 8 all bills should do, treat everybody in this 9 society the same way. If I happen to be a 10 person who has a job and I want to decide how 11 big my family is and how much I can economically 12 determine is viable for my family and how big 13 the family should be, one of the determinations 14 is economic. Do I want a larger family? Can I 15 afford another college education? Can I do this 16 or that? That's what everybody does. Every 17 American thinks about these things, and that's 18 all this bill would do. 19 This bill would say, in 20 determining whether or not I'm going to have 21 another child, I have to look at the economics, 22 as well. That's one of factors I have to 23 determine. And part of the economics -- after 6254 1 this bill is passed and if it passes the 2 Assembly, part of the economics would be: Can I 3 afford another child if I'm not going to get 4 another check from the Social Services 5 Department? 6 So it doesn't discriminate 7 against anybody, there's no mutilation, there's 8 no caning, there's no genocide. It's simply 9 making people understand that they have to be 10 responsible for their behavior, and one of the 11 considerations is economic, and they should be 12 making their decision like every other American 13 makes their decision whether they are on welfare 14 or not. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 DeFrancisco, how do you vote? 17 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 DeFrancisco in the affirmative. 20 Senator Gold to explain his vote. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, thank you. 22 I spoke in the beginning and I 23 wasn't going to speak again but Senator 6255 1 DeFrancisco requires, I think, some kind of an 2 answer. Senator, when you say an American 3 family -- and I don't know what that means. I 4 think even people who need help from others, you 5 know, have traditional families and traditional 6 values. When you say they think about it and 7 see what they can afford and they make those 8 plans, Senator, there's a lot of those families 9 that you would call decent, that you would 10 describe in these glowing terms, where accidents 11 happen, and they may be on a rhythm system, and 12 Senator Waldon discussed all of this, and 13 something happens and they have a child. And 14 what do you know? The economics have changed. 15 You used a phrase, Senator, which 16 is really the triggering phrase. People have to 17 be responsible. We have to teach them to be 18 responsible. When we discussed earlier today 19 you are a responsible person, but God forbid 20 there is a rape. And we say you are a 21 responsible person, but God forbid this happens 22 or that happens. 23 And the bottom line is that none 6256 1 of that is considered in this bill. It has 2 nothing to do with being responsible. The 3 people -- as I have said earlier today, the 4 people who need help in this society are not the 5 ones who head the federal banks and the federal 6 programs that set up systems that effect our 7 economy. These are the smallest people 8 struggling. They would love to have jobs. 9 You can not come to the floor 10 day-in and day-out with the myths, the myths 11 that we have people in society who sit down and 12 say, "Well, let me see. Today's a good day. I 13 can either become a doctor, be a lawyer, or go 14 on welfare. Which should I pick? Let me see. 15 This is a tough choice today. Yesterday, I opt 16 for welfare maybe today I'll become a brain 17 surgeon." 18 I mean come on. These are people 19 who grow up in atmospheres where they want very 20 much for their children to get out and for 21 themselves to get out, and they wake up and one 22 of the most despairing things that can happen to 23 you is not to have an opportunity. 6257 1 I'm not ashamed to look around 2 this chamber and say when I got out of law 3 school jobs were tough. I was married. My wife 4 was pregnant, and do you think I sat around all 5 day? No, I got out. Some days I had no place 6 to go, and I'm going to tell you if you tell my 7 wife, I'll shoot you. Some days I just went to 8 a movie. I was embarrassed to stay home, but 9 what was I going to do? 10 And these are people today who 11 feel the same way. They have children. They 12 want to go to work. They want to do something, 13 and they get up, and where do they go. They 14 look in the paper. They look for help 15 someplace. We don't want to give them that 16 help. We want to pass 19 junk bills telling 17 these people that it's their fault. The woman 18 who gets raped, it's her fault. The person that 19 becomes murdered in the park, it's his fault. 20 It's nonsense. 21 I vote no. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Gold in the negative. 6258 1 Announce the results. 2 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 3 the negative on Calendar Number 801 are Senators 4 Babbush, Connor, Espada, Gold, Leichter, Mendez, 5 Montgomery, Nanula, Ohrenstein, Paterson, 6 Santiago, Smith, Solomon, Stavisky and Waldon. 7 Ayes 44. Nays 15. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Bill is 9 passed. 10 Senator Present. 11 SENATOR PRESENT: May we return 12 to Calendar 800, please. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Present, before we do that, we have several 15 items, I'm informed, at the desk of housekeeping 16 measures that could go to the printer if 17 adopted. Can we take that a little out of order 18 and return to motions and resolutions? 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes, do it. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Libous. 22 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr. 23 President. On behalf of Senator DeFrancisco, I 6259 1 wish to call up his bill, Senate Print 4485A, 2 recalled from the Assembly, which is now at the 3 desk. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read. 6 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 7 DeFrancisco, Senate Bill Number 4485A, 8 authorizing the city of Syracuse to replace 9 residential water service line. 10 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President. 11 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 12 bill was passed. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration. 15 (The Secretary called the roll on 16 reconsideration.) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is before the house. 20 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President. 21 I offer up the following amendments. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 23 Amendments are received and adopted. 6260 1 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President. 2 On behalf of Senator Johnson, I wish to call up 3 his bill, Senate Print Number 3367A, recalled 4 from the Assembly, which is now at the desk. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6 will read. 7 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 8 Johnson, 3367A, an act to amend the 9 Environmental Conservation Law. 10 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President. 11 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 12 bill was passed. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration. 15 (The Secretary called the roll on 16 reconsideration.) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is before the house. 20 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President. 21 I wish to offer up the following amendments. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 23 Amendments received and adopted. 6261 1 Senator Libous. 2 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President. 3 On behalf of Senator Stafford, I wish to call up 4 his bill, Senate Print Number 8031, recalled 5 from the Assembly, which is now at the desk. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 7 will read. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: By 9 Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number 8031, 10 proposing an amendment to the constitution. 11 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President. 12 I now move to reconsider the vote by which the 13 bill was passed. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration. 16 (The Secretary called the roll on 17 reconsideration.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is before the house. 21 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President. 22 I now ask for unanimous consent to offer the 23 following amendments. 6262 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: With 2 unanimous consent, the following amendments are 3 received and adopted. 4 Senator Farley. 5 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President. 6 On behalf of Senator Kuhl, on page 6, I offer 7 the following amendments to Calendar Number 310, 8 Senate Print 3651, and I ask that bill retain 9 its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 11 Amendments are received and adopted. The bill 12 will retain it's place on the Third Reading 13 Calendar. 14 Senator Farley. 15 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President. 16 On behalf of Senator Johnson, on page 34, I 17 offer the following amendments to Calendar 1368, 18 Senate Print 7811A, and I ask that that bill 19 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 21 Amendments are received and adopted. The bill 22 will retain it's place on the Third Reading 23 Calendar. 6263 1 Senator Farley. 2 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of 3 Senator Daly, on page 20, I offer the following 4 amendments to Calendar Number 890, Senate Print 5 7511, and I ask that that bill retain its place 6 on the Third Reading Calendar. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 8 Amendments are received and adopted. The bill 9 will retain its place on the Third Reading 10 Calendar. 11 Senator DiCarlo. 12 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President. 13 On behalf of Senator Stafford, on page 32, I 14 offer the following amendments to Calendar 1351, 15 Print 8636, and ask that said bill retain its 16 place on Third Reading Calendar. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 18 Amendments are received and adopted. The bill 19 will retain it's place on the Third Reading 20 Calendar. 21 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President. 22 On behalf of Senator Cook, I wish to call up 23 bill, Print Number 5169B, recalled from the 6264 1 Assembly, which is now at the desk. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read. 4 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Cook, 5 Senate Bill 5169B, create a temporary state 6 coordinating council on geographic information 7 systems. 8 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President. 9 I now move to reconsider the vote by which the 10 bill was passed. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration. 13 (The Secretary called the roll on 14 reconsideration.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is before the house. 18 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President. 19 I now offer the following amendments. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 21 Amendments are received and adopted. 22 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President. 23 On behalf of Senator Cook, on page 44, I offer 6265 1 the following amendments to Calendar 1092, 2 Senate Print 1651A, and ask that said bill 3 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar 4 and remove the star. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 6 Amendments are received and adopted. The bill 7 will retain its place on the Third Reading 8 Calendar, and the star is removed. 9 Senator Present, we have a couple 10 of substitutions. 11 All right. The Secretary will 12 read the substitutions. 13 THE SECRETARY: On page 14 of 14 today's calendar, Senator Volker moves to 15 discharge the Committee on Rules from Assembly 16 Bill Number 11342 and substitute it for the 17 identical Calendar Number 700. 18 On page 34, Senator Velella moves 19 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 20 Assembly Bill Number 10664 and substitute it for 21 the identical Third Reading 1367. 22 On page 35, Senator Goodman moves 23 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 6266 1 Assembly Bill Number 11939 and substitute it for 2 the identical Third Reading 1372. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 4 Substitutions are ordered. 5 Senator Tully. 6 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 7 President. On behalf of the Council on Health 8 Care Financing, I hereby submit to the Journal a 9 report required by Chapter 165 of the Laws of 10 1991 on "Alternative Payment Methodologies for 11 Inpatient Hospital Reimbursement in the Medicaid 12 Managed Care Program," which was adopted 13 yesterday by the Council. 14 Thank you. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 report will be accepted and filed in the 17 Journal. 18 Secretary will now return to 19 Calendar Number 800. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 800, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 22 3833A, an act to amend the Social Services Law, 23 in relation to recovery of certain medical 6267 1 assistance expenses. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, 4 Senator Gold. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Will Senator 6 Marino yield? No, never mind. 7 Explanation please. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Holland, explanation has been asked for by 10 Senator Gold. 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, Mr. 12 President, under existing Social Services Law, 13 it provides that if it is discovered that a 14 person who receives public care and assistance 15 has real or personal property, then a public 16 welfare official may bring an action against 17 such person to recover the cost of providing 18 such person with public care and assistance 19 during the preceding ten years; however, 20 officials may not bring an action against a 21 person under the age of 21. 22 This bill gives the Department of 23 Social Services the right of action to recover 6268 1 medical care directly related to personal injury 2 suffered by a person under age 21 so that the 3 Department of Social Services may now recover 4 against any judgment or settlement obtained by 5 the individual. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 7 recognizes Senator Gold. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. There 9 is a memorandum in opposition by the New York 10 State trial lawyers, and they make a point that 11 I just want to clarify with you, Senator 12 Holland, if you will be kind enough to yield. 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: Certainly. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Holland yields. 16 SENATOR GOLD: If a person 17 affected by this bill was hit by an automobile, 18 and the driver had minimum coverage, a 10-20 19 policy, and the person was really hurt badly and 20 the medical bills were $20-30-40,000, under your 21 bill, the injured person would not get one penny 22 from the recovery. Isn't that true? 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, it's not 6269 1 true. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Well, then why 3 don't we clarify it. 4 SENATOR HOLLAND: It's still up 5 to the Department as to how they are going to 6 press the case, and I believe that they are not 7 going to try to take that money away from the 8 individual if there is not an excess amount of 9 money. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, will you 11 yield to a question? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Holland, do you continue to yield? 14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, certainly. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 yields. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, this bill 18 says that that money is in fact available, 100 19 cents on the dollar; isn't that true? 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, in an 21 Infant Compromise Order must be contained the 22 facts of a settlement and the Court must approve 23 the order. In reviewing the order, the judge 6270 1 must make sure the infant's financial rights are 2 protected. This bill does not preclude the 3 Court's discretion. That is CPLR. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 5 yield to a question? 6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Sure. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Holland continues to yield? 9 SENATOR GOLD: Someone is under 10 the age of 21. They get hit by a car. It's 11 very serious. And three years later, four 12 years, whatever it is, they are in court. It 13 turns out there is a 10-20 policy. The 14 individual is 22 years old. Isn't it a fact, 15 Senator, you don't need an infant's compromise 16 order there? The person is an adult. 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm not sure. 18 You probably know better than I do the answer to 19 that question. But I understand there is money 20 under no-fault available for that also. 21 SENATOR GOLD: On the bill. Mr. 22 President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6271 1 Gold on the bill. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Holland 3 might be right if the person was an infant, but 4 even there -- let me deal with this -- with the 5 situation. 6 In most of these cases you don't 7 need an infant's compromise order if the person 8 is over 21 when they settle. And while Senator 9 Holland says, in the case I gave, it's up to the 10 public service officer and they wouldn't do this 11 and they wouldn't -- we don't know what anybody 12 would do. We only know what happens in the laws 13 that we pass. 14 And under the law that we're 15 passing if somebody had serious damage and, as 16 happens every day in New York State, somebody is 17 driving with minimum coverage, the fact of the 18 matter is that money is gone. It's not 19 apportioned. We don't give them 50 percent. We 20 don't say take 25 percent. 21 Under the law as you have written 22 it, Senator Holland, the public service officer 23 can take it all, and we can say, "Heartless 6272 1 person," heartless man or woman, but that's not 2 the issue. They will say, "What do you want 3 from me?" 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 DeFrancisco, why do you rise? Excuse me, 6 Senator Gold. 7 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Will you 8 yield to a question, Senator? 9 SENATOR GOLD: Of course, 10 Senator. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 yields. 13 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: If you take 14 that same example and I happen to have $100,000 15 in the bank and I get hit by somebody who has a 16 10-20 policy and my medical expenses are 17 $120,000, don't I have to use my $100,000 in the 18 bank to pay for my medical expenses if the no 19 fault is not satisfactory? 20 SENATOR GOLD: That might very 21 well be. 22 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Well, why 23 would it make a difference whether or not it's 6273 1 my money in the bank that's being -- that I have 2 to use or it's money that otherwise would come 3 to me from a lawsuit that I have to pay back to 4 social services? I still end up with zero; 5 correct? 6 SENATOR GOLD: No. 7 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: No? Okay. 8 SENATOR GOLD: No. Senator, 9 we're dealing with a situation here which is an 10 exact situation, and that situation is where 11 some youngster under 21 -- remember, that's what 12 you're talking about -- whose parents, I guess, 13 are responsible and the kid is going to 14 college. I mean this is not a kid in college 15 who's got his $200,000, $300,000 in the bank. 16 This is a minor who gets injured. 17 And I think Senator Holland 18 explained that this bill before us today doesn't 19 deal with the parents or whatever. This deals 20 with opening up a new door and allowing the 21 social service people to go after the kid. 22 Now you got a kid who doesn't 23 have $100,000 in the bank, Senator. And what 6274 1 happens there is that the person is seriously 2 injured and may get a minimum recovery. 3 And all we're saying is that the 4 concept of the individual, the child, losing all 5 of it and having nothing doesn't seem fair, and 6 I think that is the point which is raised by the 7 trial lawyers memo in opposition, and I think 8 it's a valid point. 9 There are times when we get memos 10 from people and we may or may not agree with 11 it. This is one where I think they made a valid 12 point. Senator Holland, who gives I believe 13 honest answers to questions, acknowledges that 14 that is, in effect, what could happen depending 15 upon what a social service officer wants to do. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Holland, why do you rise? 18 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'd like to ask 19 if the Senator could yield to a question? 20 SENATOR GOLD: Of course. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 yields. 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: You talked 6275 1 about fairness, and not everything is fair, but 2 suppose there is a judgment for a million 3 dollars or $3 million, is it fair that the 4 taxpayers pick up all that money and none of 5 that money, none of that $3 million goes to pay 6 for maybe half a million dollars of medical 7 expenses that happened? 8 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, that's an 9 excellent question. I didn't plant it; right? 10 That's an excellent question. 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: I can give you 12 the case, too, if you like. 13 SENATOR GOLD: That's an 14 excellent question, but your bill doesn't make 15 the distinction. And what you and Senator Daly 16 are doing today which is so unfair is that you 17 are giving us bills which aren't thought out. 18 Your bill doesn't say, for example, that a 19 percentage will go. I mean supposing it's a 20 $10,000 recovery. Maybe it will be fair to 21 split it one-third/two-thirds, maybe 80/20, 22 maybe 50/50, I don't know. And maybe when you 23 get to judgments that are $50,000 we ought to 6276 1 have something. Maybe if there's two or three 2 billion dollars the state gets a bonus for 3 having laid it out. 4 But, Senator, your bill doesn't 5 do that. Your bill takes a situation and in a 6 very simplistic way -- and I don't mean that to 7 be insulting. Please don't take it personally. 8 But in a simplistic way it says - 9 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, not at all. 10 SENATOR GOLD: -- you pay it 11 back. So the answer is yeah. So the people 12 that get -- in order to get $3 million, you 13 probably, God forbid, going to have a kid who is 14 paralyzed for life or someone who's got a 15 wrongful death action. So, you know, you can 16 say what are you looking at in that situation 17 also. 18 But in a smaller case, Senator, 19 medical bills go up very quickly. You and I 20 know it. Part of the national debate today. It 21 doesn't take a lot damage, Senator, to use up 22 that $10,000. 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, none 6277 1 of this is to take away medical costs. The bill 2 does not stipulate that. What is happening now 3 is those attorneys are putting all of the money 4 in a judgment into a fund that cannot be 5 touched, and that is totally unfair. 6 Let me tell you, also, this is a 7 departmental bill, so they didn't think it out, 8 either. 9 They will save $3 to $3-1/2 10 million, and a local DSS officer conservatively 11 expects to save -- why it's so one sided on our 12 side and not one sided on your side? 13 SENATOR GOLD: Well, will you 14 yield to one more question? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Holland, will you yield? 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 yields. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, what do 21 you do about the situation where you have this 22 kind of a judgment and you take all the money 23 under your bill and then the person goes back on 6278 1 welfare, and then you're going to criticize them 2 for being back on welfare? 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: What we have 4 done for that individual is pay all of his 5 medical expenses, and we're not complaining 6 about that. So the individual has not come out 7 with nothing. We pay all of his or her medical 8 expenses. 9 And just like Senator DeFrancisco 10 says whether you had the money in the bank or 11 you didn't, the medical expenses were paid and 12 now you end up with nothing. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 14 recognizes Senator Dollinger. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 16 President. Will the sponsor yield to a 17 question? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Holland, do you yield to Senator Dollinger? 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Certainly. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 yields. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I'm 6279 1 interested in the concept of this bill because I 2 have settled actions in which there were liens 3 by social services pending against infants. In 4 a particular case, two infants that died. 5 SENATOR HOLLAND: That died? I 6 didn't hear it. That died? 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Two infants 8 that died. And the question of how or what 9 recovery there should be against the estates of 10 those infants and the wrongful death actions and 11 whether it applied. 12 My question is this. In order to 13 accomplish the goal that you are seeking and 14 since all the infant settlements in this state 15 have to be approved by a court, why not simply 16 require that the Court -- before it can approve 17 a judicial settlement for an infant, that it 18 inquire of the parties whether or not there were 19 medical bills? If so, who furnished the funds 20 to pay those medical bills, and whether or not 21 there are any liens for either the social 22 services department or other carriers or other 23 individuals that would have to be paid out of 6280 1 the proceeds? And make the Court's approval of 2 the settlement conditional upon the disclosure 3 of that information and the Court deciding that 4 there has been a proper attribution of medical 5 costs, and liens have all been taken care of, 6 all in the infant's judicial settlement process? 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: The courts have 8 said, Senator, that there does not have to be a 9 medical portion. All of it can go into pain and 10 suffering. I believe that's the Baker Sterling 11 Case. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right, but - 13 but, Mr. President, again through you. We could 14 require as part of the infant settlement process 15 that a plaintiff who is settling a case on 16 behalf of an infant disclose the amount of 17 medicals that were incurred to date, the 18 anticipated future medicals, whether any third 19 party, be it a private insurance carrier or the 20 government, has already paid for those services 21 or will be required to pay for them in the 22 future. And then allow the Court as part of the 23 settlement to determine in the best interests of 6281 1 the child, balancing off the need for the 2 government to be repaid or the insurance carrier 3 to be repaid, but also recognizing, perhaps, as 4 the trial lawyers properly point out, that there 5 is limited funds and leave it to the judge to 6 decide whether the government gets paid back. 7 We could do that, couldn't we? 8 SENATOR HOLLAND: That's what 9 we're trying to do here, Senator. And also the 10 Medicaid lien outlines what the expenses that 11 you talked about are. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. I - 13 thank you. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Dollinger on the bill. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 17 President. I understand the intention of the 18 sponsor here. I just think the way I described 19 it is a better way to do it, and a better way to 20 accomplish the goal since the infant settlement 21 would have to be approved by the court. You 22 could simply require that as part of an infant 23 settlement process the applicant has to disclose 6282 1 -- as we currently have rules for infant 2 settlements -- has to disclose what medical 3 costs were incurred on behalf of the infant, 4 both current costs and anticipated future 5 costs. 6 In addition, we could require 7 that they disclose who is paying for those 8 costs, if it were a private insurance carrier, 9 if there weren't sufficient funds available. As 10 under the example that Senator Gold used and the 11 trial lawyers used, there's only $10,000 12 available. They have incurred $5,000 worth in 13 current medicals and the anticipate $5,000 14 more. We could give to the court discretion to 15 then say, "I'm not going to take the whole 16 $10,000 and give it back to the government to be 17 reimbursed, because that will leave the child 18 with nothing. Instead, I'll come to an 19 apportionment of those medical costs and give to 20 the individual a reasonable repayment for their 21 anticipated pain or suffering but not take it 22 all." In other words, give a portion back to 23 the government, reimburse the government, do the 6283 1 kind of balancing that I think the sponsor would 2 like to achieve. It can be much better done 3 under the current mechanism that we have. Let's 4 use the infant settlement process. 5 I would support a bill that says 6 that in that process you have to disclose where 7 the source of funds are. While I understand 8 Senator Holland saying, you know, someone in the 9 Baker against Sterling case, and it's progeny 10 has somehow pulled a fast one on the government, 11 I frankly look at that and say that's good 12 lawyering. If you're told you got to repay, if 13 you attribute any portion of your settlement to 14 medical costs, you then have to repay the 15 government, every good trial lawyer in this 16 state, myself included, would stand there and 17 say, "No, I'm not going to do that. I'm going 18 to attribute it all to pain and suffering so I 19 don't have to pay it back, so I can do what's in 20 the best interest of my client." 21 And I don't think you can fault a 22 trial lawyer who is trying to do what's in the 23 best interest of his infant settlement client. 6284 1 My recommendation -- and I'm going to vote 2 against this bill, Mr. President, because I 3 think there is a better way to do it. 4 I would hope that if this bill 5 does not become law that the sponsor would 6 consider looking at infant settlements, go 7 through that process, require plaintiffs 8 applying for judicial settlement to disclose how 9 much medical was incurred, where it came from, 10 whether as part of the plan there was an 11 intention to repay a portion of that; and if the 12 repayment of medical expenses would diminish the 13 personal injury pain and suffering component to 14 a point where it's no longer adequate to cover 15 the pain and suffering for the injured or 16 disabled child, at that point the Court could 17 say, "We will simply apportion the medical 18 costs. We will repay a portion of it to the 19 government so that the infant remains whole." 20 I think that's a better 21 approach. I think this is too far-reaching and 22 will have a potentially disastrous effect. I 23 encourage the sponsor if we get to do this 6285 1 again, try that approach. It allows for a 2 better balancing under the current available 3 techniques to achieve the goal you are after, 4 which is a reasonable one. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 6 a local fiscal impact note at the desk. 7 Secretary will read the last 8 section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 15 the results when tabulated. 16 SENATOR DALY: To explain my 17 vote. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Daly to explain his vote. 20 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. We 21 keep hearing from the Minority Leader about the 22 quote/unquote 19 crummy bills that are not well 23 thought out. I'm sure this broken record will 6286 1 continue on as we proceed through the remaining 2 bills. However, it's interesting that many of 3 these bills have been out there for months. 4 There are no amendments on the floor. There are 5 no bills proposed by the Minority that I know of 6 to attack this very, very important problem. 7 Now, that would indicate one of 8 two things to me, either the Minority doesn't 9 recognize that our present welfare system has a 10 problem or really doesn't care about it. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 12 on the bill. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Leichter to explain hills vote. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Mr. 16 President. Senator Dollinger fails to 17 understand what we're engaged in here. Senator, 18 you made a perfectly good proposal and a 19 sensible proposal which, by the way, was also 20 contained here in the Trial Lawyers 21 Association. They gave us some language that 22 would achieve the aim. 23 But the aim here isn't to pass 6287 1 legislation. The aim here is to get out some 2 press releases, and so it really doesn't matter 3 what these bills say. This is a statement. 4 This is not an effort or serious effort, as we 5 understand it and see it, to try to deal with 6 the problem of welfare costs. 7 Senator Daly, we have made a lot 8 suggestions, proposals. I thought it was 9 interesting your saying, "Gee, you didn't put up 10 any amendments," seeing that you would vote 11 against any amendment. You would vote an 12 amendment -- if Moses, Jesus Christ came back 13 here and gave us an amendment, you'd vote 14 against it, because your first rule of law, your 15 first principle is "No amendment will ever 16 pass," so why should we bother putting up 17 amendments, Senator. 18 But we have a lot of bills in. 19 We have a lot of proposals that we've made. We 20 would like to deal with this seriously. Senator 21 Dollinger, who is new here and, you know, thinks 22 that reason will prevail here has made perfectly 23 good suggestion how you could get a bill that 6288 1 achieves the purpose that you say insofar as 2 these judgments or settlements are concerned for 3 injury to infants who were in welfare and will 4 get you the votes of all the members on this 5 side of the aisle and you will pass it in the 6 Assembly and the Governor will sign it, but then 7 you won't have a press -- you may not have the 8 press statement that you wanted to send out. 9 Mr. President. I vote in the 10 negative. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Leichter in the negative. 13 Senator DeFrancisco to explain 14 his vote. 15 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I just 16 wanted to point out that I think my example that 17 I asked Senator Gold about was a valid example 18 insofar as there's inequities all the time when 19 there is a 10-20 policy and the injuries are 20 much more serious than that. 21 If it's a child, a parent may 22 have some assets. They may have to pay out of 23 their own pocket if their insurance is 6289 1 insufficient. That is an inequity. That's a 2 very sad thing when it's a bad accident. 3 Or if a minor happens to have 4 money of his or her own that might be available 5 for payment of medical bills and they might not 6 be able to get that recovery for pain and 7 suffering. 8 All this bill does is basically 9 say if your medical bills aren't from your 10 family's monies or they aren't from your own 11 trust account or they aren't from the proceeds 12 of some other fund that you might have, and you 13 happen to have gotten some from the government, 14 then you are going have to use some of that pain 15 and suffering money just like anybody else 16 that's not on public assistance would have to do 17 if their funds were insufficient to pay for the 18 medical bills. 19 It's not radical. It's not 20 draconian. It's the same situation that anyone 21 who happened to have not been on welfare would 22 face if medical bills had to come out of their 23 own pocket. 6290 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 DeFrancisco, how do you vote? 3 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 DeFrancisco in the affirmative. 6 Senator Dollinger to explain his 7 vote. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 9 President. I'm going to vote in the negative 10 because, as I explained a minute ago, I think 11 there is a better way to do this. But I do 12 think, Senator DeFrancisco, that there is a 13 danger that it will be draconian, because what 14 we're really saying is that it's more important 15 that we reimburse -- the taxpayer be reimbursed 16 the $10,000 for medical expenses, than it is 17 that the child who's going to have to live an 18 entire life with a disfigurement or an injury, 19 that their pain and injury isn't at least as 20 important. 21 The proposal that I made to 22 Senator Holland would allow a Court to balance 23 those two off, give government a little bit 6291 1 back, give the injured plaintiff a little bit of 2 something, and not use an all or nothing 3 method. 4 I beg to differ, but I think in 5 the example pointed out by the trial lawyers, it 6 is going to be draconian. We don't need to be 7 draconian. We can balance it more sensitively 8 if we try an approach like I highlighted a 9 minute ago. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Dollinger in the negative. 12 Secretary will announce the 13 results. 14 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 15 the negative on Calendar Number 800 are Senators 16 Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Gold, Leichter, 17 Ohrenstein, Paterson, Santiago, Smith and 18 Waldon. Ayes 49. Nays 10. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 Senator Golden -- or Goodman, 22 excuse me. 23 SENATOR GOODMAN: Sorry, Mr. 6292 1 President. I lost my footing. The carpet 2 suddenly got very slippery under my feet. 3 Mr. President. May I be recorded 4 in the negative on Calendar 801. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 6 objection, Senator Goodman will be recorded in 7 the negative on Calendar Number 801. 8 Senator Leichter. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 10 President. May I be recorded in the negative on 11 708 and 799, please. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 13 objection, Senator Leichter will be recorded in 14 the negative on Calendar 708 and 799. 15 Senator Paterson. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 17 President. Without objection, I would like to 18 be recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 19 799. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 21 objection, Senator Paterson will be recorded in 22 the negative on Calendar Number 799. 23 Senator Present. 6293 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Call up 2 Calendar 994. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4 will read Calendar Number 994. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 994, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 5533B, 7 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Daly, an explanation has been asked for by 11 Senator Gold. 12 SENATOR DALY: I think to save 13 time, I have two bills here that are very 14 similar and with the approval of the Majority 15 Leader and the Minority Leader, perhaps I can 16 try to explain both. One deals with what we 17 call the "families in transition," which deals 18 with ADC, Aid to Dependent Children. The other 19 is called TTI, Transition to Independence, which 20 deals with home relief. Both have basically the 21 same elements in the bill. They have the same 22 purpose, the same language, and I think I can 23 explain one and just say the other. For home 6294 1 relief, for example, we'll start with family in 2 transition. It will help the afternoon go along 3 a little faster. 4 The evening? All right. 5 Mr. President. These bills have 6 one basic purpose, and that is to try to break 7 the generational cycle that we see occurring so 8 often and so increasingly in welfare, and it's 9 aimed at young ladies under the age 25 who are 10 on ADC and who come from welfare families. 11 Basically, the thrust of this 12 bill is to provide them with the counseling, 13 with the assistance, to move them off welfare 14 and onto a productive and contributing life, and 15 we do that in several ways, Mr. President. 16 First of all, we try to encourage 17 them to begin working as quickly as possible, 18 and we allow them to earn more money and keep 19 that money in addition to their grants. For 20 example, and I'm looking for the figures which I 21 will come up with shortly which demonstrates why 22 this would encourage a mother to begin working. 23 For example, if a person on ADC 6295 1 was receiving $593 per month, if they become 2 involved in this program, if they are working 3 for 35 hours a week at a wage of $5 per hour, 4 they could earn $1232 a month, well above the 5 amount they would receive from welfare on the 6 welfare payment. They would also be protected 7 under Medicaid, and this program would be a 8 pilot program, a demonstration program, which we 9 would try to move throughout the state. 10 Again, the basic thrust of the 11 bill is to take young people who are on welfare, 12 who have been on welfare, whose parents were on 13 welfare, mother was on welfare, to give them the 14 training, the counseling, the day care 15 assistance, special assistance from the Social 16 Services Department that's involved, move them 17 into a job opportunity and see them ultimately 18 work their way off welfare. 19 The other bill, the Transition to 20 Independence bill has the same purpose, deals 21 with second generation welfare recipients, and 22 deals, however, with those on home relief. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6296 1 will read the last section of Calendar Number 2 994. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect on the first day of April 5 next succeeding the date on which it shall have 6 become a law. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Waldon to explain his vote. 13 Senator Waldon, did you wish to 14 explain your vote? 15 SENATOR WALDON: Yes, thank you, 16 Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Waldon to explain his vote. 19 SENATOR WALDON: I want to 20 compliment Senator Daly on this proposal. It is 21 not all that I hoped we would be able to do in 22 this regard, but I can certainly see that there 23 will be outstanding benefits, and perhaps we can 6297 1 with this legislation break the cyclical effect, 2 the circle effect, of people remaining on 3 welfare. That's what we are really all about. 4 I applaud you for your effort. I would 5 encourage my colleagues to vote in favor of this 6 bill. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 8 the results. 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 11 is passed. 12 Senator Present. 13 SENATOR PRESENT: Number 993, 14 please. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 16 will read Calendar Number 993. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 993, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 5407E, 19 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 Secretary will read the last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 23 act shall take effect immediately. 6298 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 2 roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll.) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6 is passed. 7 Secretary will continue to call 8 the controversial calendar in regular order. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 995, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 6595A, 11 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Daly, an explanation has been asked for by 15 Senator Gold on Calendar Number 995. 16 SENATOR DALY: Give me just 30 17 seconds, Mr. President. We will get rid of the 18 previous two bills and pick up this bill. 19 Mr. President. This bill 20 requires every employable home relief recipient 21 to actively engage in job search activities as 22 long as he or she receives home relief 23 benefits. Local social service officials may 6299 1 assign the recipient to other appropriate 2 employment training or recreational activities 3 in addition to or instead of job search 4 activities. The current law only requires able 5 bodied home relief recipients to engage in job 6 search for 90 days. The local district may 7 assign a client who remains unemployed to an 8 additional 90 days. This bill would mandate if 9 it becomes law that they continue to search for 10 work beyond the 180 days presently required. 11 All we're asking them to do, Mr. President, is 12 to look for work. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Secretary will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll.) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6300 1 998, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 2 8349A, an act to amend the Social Services Law. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Holland, an explanation has been asked for by 6 Senator Gold on Calendar 998. 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 8 as you know, we've been trying to encourage 9 managed care in the State of New York, and we 10 feel it saves money and delivers better services 11 in many cases. This bill simply says in the 12 eligibility requirement of social services, the 13 social services district may require a person to 14 participate in a managed care program, as 15 required, for eligibility for such assistance. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 17 recognizes Senator Espada. 18 SENATOR ESPADA: If the sponsor 19 will yield to a question, please. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Holland, do you yield? 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: Sure. 23 SENATOR ESPADA: No problem with 6301 1 the basic premise here. Just a question, 2 Senator, would be, in your view is there enough 3 of an infrastructure there, meaning community 4 health centers, primary care health centers, 5 where enrolled recipients would then go to. 6 These plans are probably as a result of the 1990 7 or '91 law requiring about 50 percent enrollment 8 in managed care programs by '95 or so. Current 9 projections would indicate that those goals will 10 not be achieved, and this would go a long ways 11 towards helping that, I'm sure. 12 But my problem or my question 13 really is, do people have places to go? Once 14 you put them in an HMO Medicaid managed care 15 program and they will lose other options, albeit 16 expensive ones, emergency rooms, et cetera, but 17 where do they go for their routine primary 18 care? 19 SENATOR HOLLAND: Your question 20 is -- that's why we say "may," Senator, so that 21 if the structure is not there, we won't send 22 them into managed care. I would hope that the 23 district commissioner would certainly look into 6302 1 that possibility. If there is no structure for 2 them to go, he or she would not require this. 3 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 5 Secretary will read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll.) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 999, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 16 8353, an act to amend the Social Services Law. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Holland, an explanation has been asked of by 20 Senator Gold on Calendar Number 999. 21 SENATOR HOLLAND: Simply says, 22 provides that an individual who obtains, 23 attempts to obtain or assists another in 6303 1 obtaining a public assistance card which he or 2 she is not entitled to, through knowing 3 misrepresentation shall be guilty of a class A 4 misdemeanor. 5 And I can tell you about the case 6 in New Jersey again where people had more than 7 one card, and I have also had individual police 8 officers come to me and ask me for this 9 particular bill. That's all it does. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Secretary will read the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 13 act shall take effect on the first day of 14 November next succeeding the date on which it 15 shall have become a law. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll.) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 21 is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 1133, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 6304 1 8344A, an act to amend the Penal Law. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 5 SENATOR WALDON: Explanation. 6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Simply makes a 7 possession of two or more stolen public 8 assistance identification cards as an automatic 9 presumption that the cards were stolen. This is 10 true already in credit cards. If you have in 11 your possession my credit card and Daly's credit 12 card, they already assume that you're - 13 SENATOR DALY: You're in trouble. 14 SENATOR HOLLAND: You're in 15 trouble. We're only saying the same thing would 16 happen - 17 I don't know what you want Daly's 18 for, either. 19 But this says the same thing 20 would happen for a public assistance card. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Waldon. 23 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President. 6305 1 If I may, would the gentleman yield to a 2 question? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Holland, do you yield to a question? 5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Holland yields. 8 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, do we 9 not have at this time on the books in our 10 criminal statutes sections which would cover 11 possession of stolen property? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, we do, 13 Senator, but I'm told that this strengthens the 14 law. 15 SENATOR WALDON: How? 16 SENATOR HOLLAND: By saying 17 that -- let's see. "It shall be presumed to 18 know that they are forged and have an intent to 19 defraud, deceive or injure another." My 20 understanding is - 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Holland, do you continue to yield? 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: The other law, 6306 1 apparently, you would have to prove the 2 presumption. This is a stronger law, I'm told. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Holland, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 yields. 8 SENATOR WALDON: I'm befuddled, 9 Senator, if I may say that out loud. Possession 10 of stolen property is possession of stolen 11 property. Here, you have to also prove that 12 these instruments are forged or that they came 13 into the person's hands fortuitously. That has 14 to be proved. But the police officer on the 15 scene, once he or she knows or thinks that he or 16 she knows what they have in front of them, they 17 make the arrest. 18 SENATOR HOLLAND: Correct. But 19 in that situation, you would have to prove that 20 they are stolen public identification cards. 21 This presumes that there's fraud right away. 22 You don't have to prove it. 23 SENATOR WALDON: May I ask one 6307 1 last question. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Holland, do you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 yields. 7 SENATOR WALDON: Maybe a 8 statement prior to the question, if I may. The 9 trier of fact is going to make the 10 determination, in my opinion, in both of these 11 instances whether or not it's in fact stolen 12 property in the first instance or whether or not 13 there is a proper presumption in the instance 14 that you are trying to give us with this 15 legislation. So I think there is a redundancy 16 here. 17 I think the law adequately 18 provides to prosecute the people as it stands, 19 and I think this is really unnecessary, if I may 20 say. 21 SENATOR HOLLAND: I am told, 22 Senator, again by police officers on the street 23 in the City of New York who live in my district 6308 1 that they can't do anything when they find this 2 Jane Doe who has 16 children, and -- you know 3 all that story. They can't do anything when 4 she's got five cards in her pocket or ten card 5 in her pocket. 6 This bill will say she is 7 presumed guilty because she's got them in her 8 pocket and is going to use them for fraud. 9 SENATOR WALDON: If I may, Mr. 10 President, on the bill. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Holland, do you continue to yield? 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 14 SENATOR WALDON: No, no. If I 15 may, on the bill. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Waldon on the bill. 18 SENATOR WALDON: I don't know, 19 Senator and my colleagues, these officers who 20 have given you this information, but if they 21 were under my command, they would have a serious 22 problem in terms of not taking the proper 23 action. Anyone who tells you that he or she can 6309 1 not take proper action if they find such 2 instruments in the possession of someone, I 3 believe, from my appearance and my awareness of 4 the law is misleading you. 5 If you want to put this through, 6 in my opinion it's a redundancy. I would 7 encourage my colleagues to recognize that it's a 8 redundancy. I'm not going to ask that they vote 9 against or for, but to recognize that it's a 10 redundancy, and maybe we're wasting a little bit 11 of the state's time in doing so. 12 Thank you, Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Secretary will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 16 act shall take effect on the first day of 17 November next succeeding the date on which it 18 shall have become a law. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll.) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6310 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 1238, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 8261A, 4 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Daly, an explanation has been asked for by 8 Senator Gold. 9 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 10 Under the existing social service laws, ADC 11 applicants or recipients who intentionally 12 defraud the state are penalized for six months 13 after the first offense, twelve months after the 14 second offense. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Keep your voice 16 up, Senator. 17 SENATOR DALY: Oh, I'm sorry. 18 I'm saying under present law, ADC applicants or 19 recipients who are found by the Social Services 20 Department to have improperly taken money can be 21 penalized, and they are penalized by being put 22 off, being denied grants, for six months after 23 the first offense, twelve months after the 6311 1 second offense and a permanent disqualification 2 after the third offense for ADC applicants. HR 3 applicants also receive similar penalties. 4 This bill would permanently 5 disqualify any person convicted of a crime - 6 convicted of a crime, that's important - 7 related to welfare fraud in the amount in excess 8 of $2500 for home relief, $5,000 for ADC. 9 Let me point out that that would 10 not impact on children in an ADC situation, 11 where the children would continue to receive the 12 grants they normally would receive from a 13 designated payee. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Mendez, why do you rise? 16 SENATOR MENDEZ: Would Senator 17 Daly yield. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Daly, do you yield to Senator Mendez. 20 SENATOR DALY: Yes, I will. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 yields. 23 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator Daly, 6312 1 according to my understanding, are you aware 2 that in those cases in which welfare recipients 3 -- let's say that they get money by saying that 4 they lost the money of the rent and the welfare 5 department gives them the money. Are you aware 6 that when they are over their expenditures, the 7 usual thing that the welfare department does is 8 to discount every month a set quantity of monies 9 until they pay it all back? How does your bill 10 -- will that interfere with this present 11 procedure? 12 SENATOR DALY: I would guess in 13 most of those cases, there is no conviction of a 14 crime. This bill only kicks in when the person 15 is charged by the Social Service Department, or 16 the county or whomever, of having committed a 17 crime in defrauding the government. And that 18 crime in the case of HR would have to be worth 19 over $2500 and ADC over $5,000. So there has to 20 be a crime and the person, of course, has to be 21 found guilty of that crime. 22 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6313 1 will read - 2 Senator Dollinger. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 4 President. Will the sponsor yield to a 5 question? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Daly, do you yield to a question. 8 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sponsor 10 yields. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What happens 12 to the children if the parent is convicted on 13 this fraud against AFDC or home relief? 14 SENATOR DALY: The children 15 continue to receive the grant they normally 16 would receive. They would be given to a 17 designated payee -- a protective payee, who in 18 turn would use that money for the children. We 19 do not take any money away from the grant to the 20 children through this bill. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My only 22 question as a follow-up, Mr. President, is where 23 does it say that in the bill? 6314 1 SENATOR DALY: I understand it's 2 in current law. Remember, as I said before, 3 that under current law you would take someone 4 off welfare or ADC for six months for the first 5 offense. In that current law, it states the 6 children in an ADC situation would not be 7 deprived of any of the grants they normally 8 would receive. 9 So it's in present law, Senator. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It's in 11 present law? 12 SENATOR DALY: Yes, it is, under 13 protective payments under Social Services Law, 14 Section 350, if you would like to see it. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. Thank 16 you. It made reference in both the sponsor's 17 memo to that fact, but yet it's not contained in 18 the bill. That's what prompted my - 19 SENATOR DALY: It's in existing 20 law. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 Secretary will read the last section. 6315 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect on the 60th day after it 3 shall have become a law. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll.) 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 8 the results. 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58, nays 1, 10 Senator Waldon -- ayes 57, nays 2, Senators 11 Espada and Waldon recorded in the negative. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 1239, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 8266, 16 an act to amend the Social Services Law, in 17 relation to participation in job opportunities. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Daly, an explanation has been asked for by 21 Senator Gold. 22 SENATOR DALY: Yes, Mr. 23 President. 6316 1 This bill would reduce the 2 maternity leave from job training and job search 3 requirement for mothers from three years to one 4 year. The basic thrust of the bill, Mr. 5 President, is that the existing period is too 6 long. In three years you lose your job skills 7 and really, you have to begin all over. As we 8 know, in society today, most women who have 9 children don't take three years off. They're 10 back to work six weeks after or six months 11 after, most of them certainly within one year. 12 We think this should hold also for women 13 receiving AFDC. 14 As I said, three years is a long 15 period. We feel that they should be back in the 16 work force within one year so they certainly 17 won't lose their job skills and continue to work 18 to do the job that they were previously doing. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 20 recognizes Senator Oppenheimer. 21 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: In the -- I 22 have a question, please, if the sponsor will 23 yield. 6317 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Daly, will you yield to Senator Oppenheimer? 3 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes. The 5 Senator yields. 6 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Do you 7 believe, Senator Daly - 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Oppenheimer, I'm -- Senator Gold has risen along 10 with Senator Present, along with Senator Mendez, 11 which leads me to believe there is some 12 important event about to transpire. 13 SENATOR PRESENT: Without great 14 disruption, can we have the last section read 15 and allow Senator Mendez to vote? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 17 will read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 Senator Mendez, how do you vote? 23 SENATOR MENDEZ: No. 6318 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Mendez will be recorded in the negative. The 3 roll call is withdrawn. 4 The Chair recognizes Senator 5 Oppenheimer. 6 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: And 7 everybody can sit again. 8 Are you aware of the supply of 9 child care in -- in the state of New York and - 10 SENATOR DALY: Am I aware of 11 what? I'm sorry, Senator. 12 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: The nature 13 of the supply of child care in the state of New 14 York. Do you feel that there are enough slots 15 so that women with children age one and under 16 will be able to access infant and toddler care? 17 SENATOR DALY: Well, Senator, age 18 one and under, under the federal law as you 19 know, you can go from one year to three years. 20 New York State selected three. Three years 21 means a child at least three years of age, so 22 one and under, you are, even under this, with 23 this bill if it becomes law, you still -- the 6319 1 woman would still not have to work and, 2 importantly also, I forgot to mention, go 3 through job training if she's still -- if she's 4 looking for work. 5 In other words, Senator, she 6 can't say, "I don't want training, I don't want 7 to be trained for a job because my -- I've only 8 been -- had my last child two and a half years 9 ago or two years ago." You would have-- she 10 would be required, again, to go through job 11 training after the child has been with her for 12 one year. 13 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Right. No, 14 I understand that. Let me ask you another 15 question, if you will yield again. 16 SENATOR DALY: Yes, certainly, 17 Senator. 18 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: If the 19 child is born and has a deficiency, would fall 20 under OMR/DD, would this also apply for the 21 mother of that child? 22 SENATOR DALY: Senator, under the 23 existing law which we don't change, there seems 6320 1 to be, I think that would be a case which would 2 be called having reason for good cause, and, for 3 example, if a person could not find a proper 4 child -- child care facilities to take care of 5 the child, the person could be excused from that 6 one-year limitation. 7 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: O.K. Thank 8 you, Senator. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Oppenheimer, on the bill. 11 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: On the 12 bill, yes. We have just -- my Senate Democratic 13 Task Force on Women's Issues has just been 14 moving around the state holding hearings on the 15 issue of child care. I can tell you that, in 16 the state of New York, we are not meeting 20 17 percent -- we are meeting 20 percent of the need 18 for child care in this state. We have an 19 appalling lack of slots for children -- for 20 early childhood care. 21 The most appalling lack is in the 22 area of infant and toddler care, supervision 23 care. In many of our cities, we find there are 6321 1 maybe a couple of dozen slots for what's called 2 infant and toddler care, which is care for those 3 children under the age of three. Considering 4 the abysmal supply, the lack of supply of child 5 care openings, considering that in most areas 6 women cannot find child care even though they 7 would like to go to work, considering the lack 8 that we have in this state, and we in no way can 9 meet the federal JOBS, J-O-B-S, Law which says 10 that women with children underneath the age of 11 three should be in the job force, work force, 12 because we can not find the child care for those 13 women. 14 We can not find -- if we can not 15 find it for women with children under the age of 16 three, there is no way we are going to be able 17 to find child care for babies under the age of 18 one; that is infant care. It is almost 19 non-existent in the state of New York. 20 Further, under the JOBS program, 21 the woman must be offered a choice of two 22 reliable, regulated child care alternatives, and 23 if she does not choose one, she must choose the 6322 1 other, but there must be at least two choices. 2 The two choices just simply don't exist in our 3 state except in a few areas. 4 So I think it just ignores the 5 reality, and I think we would be much better off 6 if we put some of our muscle and our leadership 7 and our will behind the creation of more child 8 care so that we can help the many mothers who 9 would like to be at work and can't because they 10 cannot find child care that is affordable and 11 convenient. 12 Thank you. I'll be voting no. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 21 the results when tabulated. 22 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 23 the negative on Calendar Number 1239 are Senat 6323 1 ors Babbush, Connor, Espada, Gold, Leichter, 2 Mendez, Montgomery, Nanula, Ohrenstein, 3 Oppenheimer, Santiago, Smith and Waldon. Ayes 4 46, nays 13. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6 is passed. 7 Senator Present, there not having 8 been a Rules Committee report, that would 9 complete the controversial calendar on Active 10 Bill List Number 1. What is your pleasure, sir? 11 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 12 let me remind, as I said last night, that those 13 who have to amend bills that are on the calendar 14 that, if they're not in by tonight, it will be 15 too late to have those bills aged. We're still 16 on the agenda to complete this session on 17 Friday. We will be meeting every morning at 18 11:00 o'clock. The promptness of the members in 19 attending at 11:00 o'clock will help us proceed 20 to our goal, so I remind, again, on the 21 amendments. 22 And now can we take up Agenda 23 Number 2, non-controversial. 6324 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 2 will read the Active Bill List Number 2, 3 non-controversial calendar. 4 THE SECRETARY: On page 8, 5 Calendar Number 432, by Senator Levy, Senate 6 Bill Number 79-C, an act to amend the 7 Transportation Law and the Education Law. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 10 bill aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 435, by Senator Farley, Senate Bill Number 13 214-D, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic 14 Law. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 16 please. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 18 bill aside. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 715, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 1090 - 21 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 23 bill aside. 6325 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 779, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 7834, 3 Domestic Relations Law3 and the Social Services 4 Law. 5 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 7 bill aside. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 868, by Senator Spano, Senate Bill Number 10 3354-A, Retirement and Social Security Law. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 13 bill aside. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 874, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 16 7715-A, Retirement and Social Security Law. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 18 will read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6326 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1001, by member of the Assembly Gantt, Assembly 6 Bill Number 9612, an act to amend the Vehicle 7 and Traffic Law. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 9 will read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1010, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 56 - 20 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 22 bill aside. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6327 1 1011, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number 2 5904-B, with an Assembly Reprint Number of 3 30005, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic 4 Law. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6 will read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 1287, by Senator Rath, Senate Bill Number 8605, 17 an act to amend the state - 18 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 20 bill aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 1290, by Senator Stafford. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 6328 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 2 bill aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 1306, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 7231, 5 an act to amend the General City Law, the Town 6 Law and the Village Law. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 1323, by the Senate- 19 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 21 bill aside. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 1326, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 6329 1 1995-B, an act to amend the Education Law. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 4 bill aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 1330, by Senator Seward, Senate Bill Number 7 4262-A, an act to amend the Tax Law and the 8 Public Service Law. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will read the last section. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 13 bill aside. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 1341, by Senator Spano, Senate Bill Number 8088, 16 an act to amend Chapter 78 of the Laws of 1989. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 18 will read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6330 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1344, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 6 80... 7 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 8 please. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 10 bill aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1354, substituted earlier today, by member of 13 the Assembly Vann, Assembly Bill Number 4109-A, 14 city of New York to reconvey its interest in 15 certain real property. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 17 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 18 read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6331 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1355, by Senator Spano, Senate Bill Number 6 3185-C, an act to amend the Retirement and 7 Social Security Law. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 9 will read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1356 by Senator Spano, Senate Bill Number 20 3276-B, an act to amend the Retirement and 21 Social Security Law. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the last section. 6332 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 8 is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 1357, by Senator Present, Senate Bill Number 11 3674, Real Property Tax Law. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 13 will read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 21 is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 1358, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 6333 1 5499-A, an act to amend the Social Services 2 Law. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4 will read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. Lay the bill aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 1359, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number 11 5571, an act to amend - 12 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 14 bill aside. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 1360, substituted earlier today, by member of 17 the Assembly Griffith, Assembly Bill Number 18 9582, an act to amend the Judiciary Law. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6334 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1361, substituted earlier today, by member of 8 the Assembly Feldman, Assembly Bill Number 9 2438-A, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic 10 Law. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58, nays 19 one, Senator Kuhl recorded in the negative. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 21 is passed. 22 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 23 Inadvertently Calendar Number 435 was laid 6335 1 aside. Can we go back and pick up that one? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will return to Calendar Number 435. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 435, by Senator Farley, Senate Print Number 214 6 D, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 8 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 9 read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1362, substituted earlier today, by member of 20 the Assembly Pordum, Assembly Bill Number 21 9465-B, city of Lackawanna, county of Erie, 22 discontinue the use and sell certain park land. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 6336 1 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 2 read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 10 is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1363, substituted earlier today. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 15 bill aside. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1364, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 18 701 - 19 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 21 bill aside. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 1365, by Senator Lack. 6337 1 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 2 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Lay aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 4 bill aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 1366, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly 7 Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 11587, 8 Environmental Conservation Law. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 1367, substituted earlier today, by member of 21 the Assembly Grannis, Assembly Bill Number 22 10664, an act to amend the Insurance Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6338 1 will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1371, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly 12 Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 11513, 13 General Obligations Law. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will read the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll.) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 23 is passed. 6339 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1372, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly 3 Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 11939, 4 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6 will read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 1373, by Senator Lack, Senate Bill Number 8145, 17 an act to amend the Uniform City Court Act. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 19 will read the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 23 roll. 6340 1 (The Secretary called the roll.) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 4 is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 1374, by Senator Present, Senate Bill Number 7 8189-A. 8 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay aside. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 10 bill aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1375, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly 13 Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 14 11632-A, an act to amend the Town Law and the 15 Public Officers Law. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 17 will read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 6341 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 2 is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 1376, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 8398, 5 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 7 last section. 8 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Lay it 9 aside. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 11 bill aside. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 1377, substituted earlier today, by member of 14 the Assembly -- excuse me, by the Assembly 15 Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill 11700, amends 16 Chapter 19 of the Laws of 1984. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 18 home rule message at the desk. The Secretary 19 will read the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 23 roll. 6342 1 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 4 is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 1378, by Senator Sears, Senate Bill Number 80... 7 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 9 bill aside. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1380, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly 12 Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 11828, 13 Surrogates Court Procedure Act. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 15 last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 23 is passed. 6343 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1382, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 8684, 3 authorize the sale or lease of real property at 4 the Rochester Psychiatric Center. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 6 last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 SENATOR GOLD: Lay that one 13 aside. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 15 bill aside. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1383, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 18 8694, Environmental Conservation Law. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will - 21 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 23 bill aside. 6344 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1384, by Senator Spano, Senate Bill Number 8695, 3 amends Chapter 318 of the Laws of 1991. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 1385, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number - 16 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 17 please. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 19 bill aside. 20 Senator Present, that completes 21 the non-controversial calendar. What's your 22 pleasure? 23 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 6345 1 are there any housekeeping? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, we 3 have a couple motions at the desk. 4 Senator -- return to motions and 5 resolutions. Senator Wright. 6 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I 7 request unanimous consent to be recorded in the 8 negative on Calendar Number 1361. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 10 objection, Senator Wright will be recorded in 11 the negative on Calendar Number 1369. 12 SENATOR WRIGHT: '61. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 14 me, '61, Calendar Number 1361, 1361. 15 Senator Wright. 16 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, 17 on behalf of Senator Bruno, I wish to call up 18 bill Print Number 934 recalled from the Assembly 19 which is now at the desk. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 21 will read. 22 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Bruno, 23 Senate Bill Number 934, an act to amend the 6346 1 Civil Service Law. 2 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I 3 now move to reconsider the vote by which this 4 bill was passed. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6 will call the roll on reconsideration. 7 (The Secretary called the roll on 8 reconsideration. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Mr. Pres 11 ident, I now offer the following amendments. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 13 Amendments are received and adopted. 14 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, 15 on behalf of Senator Spano, I wish to call up 16 his bill, Calendar Number 867, Assembly Print 17 Number 2153. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 19 will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Assembly Number 21 2153, by member of the Assembly Weinstein, an 22 act to amend the Civil Service Law. 23 SENATOR WRIGHT: I now move to 6347 1 reconsider the vote by which this Assembly bill 2 was substituted for bill, Senate Print Number 3 1213 on May 10th. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will call the roll on reconsideration. 6 (The Secretary called the roll on 7 reconsideration. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 9 SENATOR WRIGHT: I now move that 10 Assembly Bill Number 2153 be recommitted to the 11 Senate Committee on Rules and my Senate bill be 12 restored to the order of Third Reading Calendar. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Assembly bill will be recommitted. The Senate 15 bill will be restored to Third Reading Calendar. 16 Senator Present. 17 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 18 I reiterate what I have said twice now in the 19 last two days. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Present, excuse me just a minute. Have some 22 order in the chamber. Recognize your colleague 23 for an important announcement. Senator Present. 6348 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 2 may I reiterate what I've said the last couple 3 days. Anyone who has a bill to be amended 4 that's on the calendar, that amendment should be 5 submitted prior to our adjournment today. I'm 6 going to call an immediate meeting of the Rules 7 Committee, have the Senate stand in recess 8 awaiting the report of the Rules Committee. We 9 will then adjourn until tomorrow at 11:00 a.m. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 11 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules 12 Committee in Room 332, the Majority Conference 13 Room. We will be standing at ease. There still 14 are some motions and some resolutions, simply 15 motions to take care of, but we will be 16 adjourning until tomorrow at 11:00 a.m. sharp. 17 Be here promptly. 18 Senator Santiago. 19 SENATOR SANTIAGO: Mr. President, 20 I would like to be recorded in the negative on 21 Calendar Number 706 and 708. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 23 objection, Senator Santiago will be recorded in 6349 1 the negative on Calendar Number 706 and 708. 2 Senator Rath. 3 SENATOR RATH: Yes, Mr. 4 President. I wish to call up Calendar Number 5 1240, Assembly Print Number 8600-B, on behalf of 6 Senator Goodman. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read. 9 THE SECRETARY: An act to amend 10 the General City Law, in relation to imposing a 11 duty on street vendors. 12 SENATOR RATH: I now move to 13 reconsider the vote by which the Assembly bill 14 was substituted for this particular Senate Print 15 Number 8389 on June 21st. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 17 will call the roll on reconsideration. 18 (The Secretary called the roll on 19 reconsideration. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 21 SENATOR RATH: Mr. President, I 22 now move that the Assembly bill 8600-B be 23 recommitted to the Committee on Rules and that 6350 1 this particular Senate bill be restored to the 2 order of the Third Reading Calendar. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Assembly 4 bill will be recommitted; the Senate bill will 5 be restored to the Third Reading Calendar. 6 SENATOR RATH: Mr. President, I 7 now offer the following amendments. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 9 Amendments are received and adopted. The Senate 10 will stand at ease awaiting the Rules Committee 11 report. 12 (The Senate stood at ease from 13 6:35 to 7:26 p.m.) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: Senate 15 will come to order. 16 Senator Present. 17 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 18 I've got a few motions here. Can we take care 19 of them now? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: 21 Senator Present, order of motions. 22 SENATOR PRESENT: M-m h-m-m. 23 Mr. President, I wish to call up 6351 1 Senator Skelos' bill, Print 4138-A, recalled 2 from the Assembly which is now at the desk. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: 4 Secretary will read. 5 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 6 Skelos, Senate Bill Number 4138-A, an act to 7 amend the Public Health Law. 8 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 9 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 10 bill was passed. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: Call 12 the roll on reconsideration. 13 (The Secretary called the roll on 14 reconsideration. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 16 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 17 I now offer the following amendments. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: 19 Amendments are received. 20 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 21 on behalf of Senator Wright, I call up his bill, 22 Print 6120-A, recalled from the Assembly which 23 is now at the desk. 6352 1 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: Clerk 2 will read. 3 THE SECRETARY: By the Committee 4 on Rules, Senate Bill Number 6120-A, an act to 5 amend the Public Authorities Law. 6 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 7 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 8 bill was passed. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: Call 10 the roll on reconsideration. 11 (The Secretary called the roll on 12 reconsideration. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 14 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 15 the bill is now restored to third place reading, 16 I offer the following amendments. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: 18 Amendments are received and the bill is restored 19 to Third Reading Calendar. 20 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 21 on behalf of Senator Stafford, I ask for 22 unanimous consent to offer the following 23 amendments on page 45, Calendar 1105, Senate 6353 1 print 7970, and ask that it retain its place on 2 the Third Reading Calendar, and that the star be 3 removed. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: So 5 ordered. 6 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 7 on behalf of Senator Libous, on page 43, I offer 8 the following amendments to Calendar 856, Senate 9 Print 7586, and ask that it retain its place on 10 the calendar. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: So 12 ordered. 13 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 14 on behalf of Senator Skelos, on page 17, I offer 15 the following amendments to Calendar 802, Senate 16 Print 6501-B, and ask that it retain its place. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: So 18 ordered. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 20 on behalf of Senator Saland, on page 16, I offer 21 the following amendments to Calendar 779, 22 Assembly -- Senate Print 7834-A, and ask that it 23 retain its place. 6354 1 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: So 2 ordered. 3 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 4 can we return to reports of standing committees. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: 6 Reports of standing committees. Senator 7 Present. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marino, 9 from the Committee on Rules, reports the 10 following bills directly for third reading: 11 Senate Bill Number 737, by 12 Senator Holland, Social Services Law; 13 1064, by Senator Present, an act 14 to amend the Tax Law; 15 4629-C, by Senator Volker, 16 provide service credit New York State and local 17 employees retirement system; 18 6410-B, by Senator Holland, 19 Social Services Law; 20 6537, by Senator Present, an act 21 to amend the Tax Law; 22 6789-B, by Senator Hannon, an act 23 to amend the Tax Law; 6355 1 6970-A, by Senator Holland, 2 creating a local cost containment incentive 3 program; 4 7056-A, by Senator Trunzo, 5 Administrative Code of the city of New York; 6 7195-A, by Senator Velella, 7 Insurance Law; 8 7753-A, by Senator Kuhl, 9 Agriculture and Markets Law; 10 8020, by Senator Johnson, 11 Education Law; 12 8080-A, by Senator Tully, an act 13 to amend the health -- an act to amend the 14 Public Health Law; 15 8186, by Senator Lack, 16 Surrogate's Court Procedure Act; 17 8197, by Senator Galiber, 18 retroactive granting of a senior citizen 19 exemption; 20 8417-A, by Senator Velella, 21 Insurance Law; 22 8494, by Senator Sears, to allow 23 Joanne A. Taurisano credit in the New York State 6356 1 Local Employees Retirement; 2 8538, by Senator Velella, 3 Administrative Code of the city of New York; 4 8552, by Senator DiCarlo, 5 Executive Law; 6 8572, by Senator Mendez, city of 7 New York to reconvey its interest in real 8 property; 9 8584, by Senator Johnson, 10 providing a retirement incentive; 11 8606, by Senator Volker, 12 moratorium on requiring any disconnection from 13 the Letchworth State Park water line; 14 8624, by Senator Padavan, General 15 Municipal Law;. 16 8630, by Senator Volker, an act 17 to amend the Penal Law; 18 8652, by Senator Stafford, 19 Retirement and Social Security Law; 20 8662, by Senator Libous, an act 21 to amend the Tax Law; 22 8680, by the Committee on Rules, 23 Administrative Code of the city of New York; 6357 1 8681, by Senator Maltese, an act 2 to amend the Correction Law; 3 796 -- excuse me, 796-A, by 4 Senator Saland, General Business Law, reported 5 with amendments; 6 5178-C, by Senator Johnson, 7 restoring Emil G. Pavlik, Jr. to Tier II 8 membership; 9 5802-A, by Senator Gonzalez, 10 authorizing the city of New York to reconvey its 11 interest in certain property; 12 6399, by Senator Velella, General 13 Obligations Law; 14 6693, by Senator Johnson, 15 Domestic Relations Law; 16 7140-A by Senator Pataki, 17 Criminal Procedure Law; 18 7494-B, by Senator Bruno, 19 Economic Development Law; 20 570 -- I'm sorry, 7507, by 21 Senator Rath, optional 20-year retirement; 22 7535-A, by Senator Seward, an act 23 to amend the Labor Law; 6358 1 7537, by Senator Seward, Civil 2 Rights Law; 3 7588, by Senator Kuhl, Workers' 4 Compensation Law; 5 7644, by Senator Lack, an act to 6 amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules, reported 7 with amendments; 8 7773-A, by Senator Farley, 9 Vehicle and Traffic Law; 10 7807, by Senator Pataki, Criminal 11 Procedure Law; 12 7808, by Senator Pataki, Criminal 13 Procedure Law; 14 7910, by Senator Saland, 15 Commissioner of General Services to sell certain 16 land; 17 8093, by Senator Holland, Uniform 18 Justice Court Act; 19 8390, by Senator Pataki, 20 authorizing the conveyance of certain real 21 property; 22 8405-A, by Senator DiCarlo, 23 Social Services Law; 6359 1 8463, by Senator Johnson, County 2 Law; 3 8544-B, by Senator Sears, Public 4 Authorities Law; 5 8553-B, by Senator Sears, Public 6 Authorities Law; 7 8556, by Senator Farley, 8 Education Law; 9 8690-A, by Senator Nanula, Local 10 Finance Law; 11 And 4765-A, by Senator Paterson, 12 city of New York to reconvey its interest in 13 certain real property. 14 All bills reported directly to 15 third reading. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: All 17 bills ordered to third reading. 18 Senator Present. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Could we stand 20 at ease for a moment. We got one thing 21 hanging. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: Stand 23 at ease for a moment, please. 6360 1 (The Senate stood at ease 2 briefly.) 3 Senator Present. 4 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 5 in behalf of Senator Johnson, I offer the 6 following amendments to Calendar 1397, Senate 7 Print 8020, and ask that it retain its place on 8 the Third Reading Calendar. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: So 10 ordered. 11 SENATOR PRESENT: Thank you, 12 sir. 13 Mr. President, there being no 14 further business, I move that we adjourn until 15 tomorrow at 11:00 a.m., sharp. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senate 17 is adjourned until tomorrow at 11:00 a.m., 18 sharp. 19 (Whereupon at 7:40 p.m., the 20 Senate adjourned.) 21 22 23