Thursday, June 30, 1994

6577 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 June 30, 1994 10 11:44 a.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 6578 1 ....At 11:15 a.m.... 2 SENATOR PRESENT: It's 11:15. I 3 would urge all members of the Senate to come 4 promptly to the chamber. 11:15; the session was 5 to have started at 11:00 a.m. sharp. Please, 6 members of the Senate, come promptly to the 7 Senate chamber. 8 P R O C E E D I N G S 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 Senate will come to order. Ask the members to 11 take their places, staff to take their places, 12 people in the gallery please rise and join in 13 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. 14 (The assemblage repeated the 15 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. ) 16 In the absence of clergy, I'd ask 17 that we bow our heads in a moment of silence. 18 (A moment of silence was 19 observed. ) 20 Reading of the Journal. 21 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 22 Wednesday, June 29th. The Senate met pursuant 23 to adjournment, Senator Kuhl in the Chair upon 6579 1 designation of the Temporary President. Prayer 2 by the Reverend Otto Vogt of St. Paul of the 3 Cross, Honeoye Falls, New York. The Journal of 4 Tuesday, June 28th, was read and approved. On 5 motion, Senate adjourned. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing 7 no objection, the Journal stands approved as 8 read. 9 Presentation of petitions. 10 Messages from the Assembly. 11 Messages from the Governor. 12 Reports of standing committees. 13 Reports of select committees. 14 Communications and reports from 15 state officers. 16 Motions and resolutions. 17 Senator Cook. 18 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, is 19 there a resolution at the desk? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 21 a privileged resolution at the desk, Senator 22 Cook. Would you like its title read? 23 SENATOR COOK: Read the whole 6580 1 thing, if you would. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read the privileged resolution in its 4 entirety. 5 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 6 Resolution, by Senators Cook and Nolan. 7 Legislative Resolution paying tribute to W. 8 Gordon Morris, Jr., upon the occasion of his 9 retirement on June 29th, 1994. 10 WHEREAS, this legislative body 11 believes that persons who have given outstanding 12 service to their community and New York State 13 should be recognized; 14 W. Gordon Morris, Jr. has given 15 to his community and the state of New York the 16 very best in all of the traits that comprise our 17 nation's best persons; 18 W. Gordon Morris, Jr. has been an 19 asset of the highest level in the New York State 20 Senate and in the office of Senator Charles D. 21 Cook; 22 W. Gordon Morris, Jr. has gained 23 the admiration and respect of his fellow office 6581 1 workers and all with whom he has worked in the 2 New York State Legislature; 3 W. Gordon Morris, Jr. has served 4 with distinction in the Elsmere Fire Company for 5 over 25 years, including three years as Company 6 President and 20 years in the positions of 7 Elsmere Fire District Commissioner, Secretary 8 and Treasurer; 9 W. Gordon Morris, Jr. has served 10 for 28 years as an active member of the 11 Bethlehem Chamber of Commerce, five years as a 12 member of the Kiwanis Club of Albany and five 13 years as a member of the Kiwanis Club of Delmar, 14 receiving their Distinguished Service Award; 15 W. Gordon Morris, Jr. has served 16 on numerous committees for the Bethlehem Central 17 School District, including the Budget Advisory 18 Committee and the Middle School Steering 19 Committee, and is a Past President of the high 20 school Parent-Teachers Organization; 21 W. Gordon Morris, Jr. has served 22 in numerous political capacities including 23 Republican Committeeman, executive member of 6582 1 Senator Walter Langley's Campaign Committee and 2 as a coordinator of numerous campaigns in the 3 town of Bethlehem; 4 W. Gordon Morris, Jr. was elected 5 in 1978 to be a member of the Albany County 6 Legislature, where he served with distinction 7 until 1992; 8 W. Gordon Morris, Jr. was the 9 Minority Leader of the Albany County Legislature 10 from 1981 to 1990, where he elected -- where he 11 acted with courage, decency and in the best 12 interests of his constituents and the residents 13 of Albany County; 14 W. Gordon Morris, Jr. has been 15 married to Lee C. Morris since 1950 and has two 16 children, William G. Morris III and Christy Lee 17 Morris Greene; W. Gordon Morris, Jr. has 18 19 enriched and enhanced the lives of his friends, 20 family, neighbors, the citizens of the Capital 21 District and all those who know him. 22 NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED 23 that this legislative body pause in its 6583 1 deliberations to recognize W. Gordon Morris, Jr. 2 for his outstanding contributions to society and 3 this legislative body; and 4 BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that 5 copies of this resolution, suitably engrossed, 6 be transmitted to W. Gordon Morris, Jr. and Lee 7 C. Morris. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 9 recognizes Senator Cook on the resolution. 10 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, not 11 to prolong this unduly, but Gordon Morris is an 12 example of the best of our Senate staff. He has 13 brought not just competence but a particular 14 personal flavor to the work that he does and 15 he's been particularly valuable to me because he 16 knows far more people in this Capitol than I do 17 and, as you can appreciate, that is a great 18 benefit, if you will, to have a staff person 19 who's acquainted with people on that basis, and 20 the reason that it's valuable is because they 21 know that Gordon is at the basic level totally 22 honest, that he is the personification of 23 integrity, that he -- that from this grows his 6584 1 ability to get things done and to work with 2 people, and we are just very pleased to have him 3 here today; and he's about to take off some time 4 before the end of the day and do other things 5 with his wife, Lee, and we just want to wish him 6 very well. 7 Thank you. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 9 recognizes Senator Farley on the resolution. 10 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. 12 I have mixed emotions voting for 13 this resolution, because I don't want to see 14 this young fellow retire. Gordon Morris is one 15 of the most decent people, and I'll tell you 16 he's getting out at the top of his career 17 because he's done so much for Albany County and 18 he's been a public servant and one of the most 19 decent people that I've ever known. 20 I wish him well. I wish him all 21 the very best. I'll tell you, you're losing a 22 brick in your organization there, Senator Cook, 23 and, Gordon, I wish you and your family and your 6585 1 wife all the very, very best, and I think this 2 resolution speaks for itself in that it 3 illustrates what a remarkable public servant 4 this man has rendered to the state of New York 5 and to his home town and his county. 6 I am pleased to support this and 7 wish Gordon Morris well. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 9 is on the resolution. All those in favor 10 signify by saying aye. 11 (Response of "Aye.") 12 Opposed nay. 13 (There was no response. ) 14 The resolution is unanimously 15 adopted. 16 Gordon, it's my pleasure to wish 17 you well as the presiding officer in the Senate 18 on behalf of Senator Cook, Senator Marino and 19 all the rest of the Senators, and we thank you 20 for your dedicated service not only to your 21 community but certainly to the state Senate. 22 All of us who sit here as members certainly 23 understand what Senator Cook said when he said 6586 1 that you personify the typical employee. We all 2 wish we had all of our employees who did as well 3 as you did. 4 So thank you for your service to 5 the New York State Senate. 6 (Applause. ) 7 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 DiCarlo. 10 SENATOR DiCARLO: Yes, Mr. 11 President. I have two resolutions at the desk 12 and I ask that the titles be read and that they 13 be opened up to sponsorship, 4193. O.K. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 DiCarlo, we'll attempt to find out where they 16 are, and we'll get back to you later on in the 17 session. 18 SENATOR DiCARLO: I have some 19 other work to do. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 DiCarlo for a motion. 22 SENATOR DiCARLO: On page 36, I 23 offer the following amendments to Calendar 1461, 6587 1 Senate print 8479-A, on behalf of Senator 2 Maltese, and request that the bill retain its 3 place on the Third Reading Calendar. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 5 Amendments are received and adopted; bill will 6 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 7 Senator Present, we have some 8 substitutions to read if that's acceptable. 9 SENATOR PRESENT: Please. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read the substitutions. 12 THE SECRETARY: On page 6 of 13 today's calendar, Senator Volker moves to 14 discharge the Committee on Rules from Assembly 15 Bill Number 10853 and substitute it for the 16 identical Third Reading 764. 17 On page 34, Senator Cook moves to 18 discharge the Committee on Rules from Assembly 19 Bill Number 1090 and substitute it for the 20 identical Third Reading 1444. 21 On page 34, Senator Saland moves 22 to discharge the Committee on Judiciary from 23 Assembly Bill Number 1678 and substitute it for 6588 1 the identical Third Reading 1447. 2 On page 35, Senator Maltese moves 3 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 4 Assembly Bill Number 8075-A and substitute it 5 for the identical Calendar Number 1450. 6 On page 35, Senator Volker moves 7 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 8 Assembly Bill Number 10681 and substitute it for 9 the identical Third Reading 1454. 10 On page 36, Senator Smith moves 11 to discharge the Committee on Cities from 12 Assembly Bill Number 9575 and substitute it for 13 the identical Third Reading 1455. 14 On page 36, Senator Saland moves 15 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 16 Assembly Bill Number 10905 and substitute it for 17 the identical Third Reading 1456. 18 On page 37, Senator Kuhl moves to 19 discharge the Committee on Rules from Assembly 20 Bill Number 11618 and substitute it for the 21 identical Calendar Number 1466. 22 On page 37, Senator Marino moves 23 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 6589 1 Assembly Bill Number 12093 and substitute it for 2 the identical Third Reading 1467. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All 4 substitutions or ordered. 5 Senator Present, that brings us 6 to the calendar. 7 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 8 can we stand at ease for a few moments. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 10 will stand at ease for a couple of moments. 11 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 13 recognizes Senator Libous for a motion. 14 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, 15 on behalf of Senator Goodman, I'd like to place 16 a sponsor's star on Calendar Number 888, Senate 17 Print Number 6973, and also on behalf of Senator 18 Goodman, I'd like to remove a sponsor's star on 19 Calendar Number 1240, Senate Print Number 20 8389-A. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sponsor's 22 star will be placed on Calendar Number 888, 23 sponsor's star removed on 1240. 1240. 6590 1 The Senate will continue to stand 2 at ease. 3 (The Senate stood at ease until 4 12:06 p.m.) 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 6 will come to order. Members take their places, 7 staff their places. 8 The Chair recognizes Senator 9 Present. 10 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 11 I believe we're ready for the non-controversial 12 calendar. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the non-controversial calendar. 15 THE SECRETARY: On page 4 of 16 today's calendar, Calendar Number 80, by Senator 17 Johnson, Senate Bill Number 2802-B, an act to 18 amend the Education Law. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6591 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 108, by Senator Libous, Senate Bill Number 8 4473-A, with an Assembly Reprint Number of 9 30004, an act to amend the Social Services Law. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 224, by member of the Assembly King, Assembly 22 Bill Number 9005-B, creation of the Westport 23 Fire District in the town of Westport. 6592 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 2 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 3 read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 11 is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 261, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number - 14 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 16 bill aside. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 293, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 184-A, 19 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 22 bill aside. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6593 1 414, by Senator Tully, Senate Bill Number 2 4484-B, an act to amend the Education Law. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4 will read the last section. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, 6 please. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 8 bill aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 434, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 190, an 11 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 13 will read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 21 is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 599, by member of the Assembly Tonko, Assembly 6594 1 Bill Number 9919-A, with a Senate Reprint Number 2 of 21008, an act to amend the Insurance Law. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 4 last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 12 is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 653, by Senator Hannon, Senate Bill Number 15 276-B, an act to amend the Public Housing Law. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 Secretary will read the last section. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 20 bill aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 698, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 7573, 23 an act to amend the Penal Law. 6595 1 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside 2 temporarily. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 4 bill aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 774, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 4660 7 A, an act to amend the Family Court Act. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 9 last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 788, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 7871-A, 20 an act to amend the Education Law, in relation 21 to efficiency study grants. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the last section. 6596 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 8 is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 894, by Senator Rath, Senate Bill Number 7054-C, 11 an act to amend the State Administrative 12 Procedure Act. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 14 please. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 16 bill aside. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 896. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, 20 please. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 22 bill aside. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6597 1 951, by member of the Assembly Vitaliano, 2 Assembly Bill Number 10836, an act to amend the 3 Public Service Law and the Transportation Law. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 984, by Senator Wright, Senate Bill Number 16 7418-A, an act to amend the Highway Law. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 18 will read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6598 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1105, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number 6 7970-A, proposing - 7 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, 8 please. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 10 bill aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1107, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number 13 8031-A, proposing an amendment to the 14 Constitution, in relation to the exchange of 15 certain forest preserve land. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 17 is on the resolution. Secretary will read the 18 roll, or call the roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 resolution is adopted. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6599 1 1187, by Senator Rath, Senate Bill Number 2 8002-B, an act to amend the State Administrative 3 Procedure Act. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 1188, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 16 8167, authorize the Town of Hempstead in Nassau 17 County to lease certain park lands. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 19 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 20 read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6600 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1261, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 8 1902-C, an act to amend the Agriculture and 9 Markets Law. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 11 please. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 13 bill aside. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 1287, by Senator Rath, Senate Bill Number 8605, 16 an act to amend the State Administrative 17 Procedure Act. 18 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 20 bill aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 1318, by Senator Holland. 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Lay aside for 6601 1 the day, please. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 3 bill aside for the day. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1323, by the Senate Committee on Rules. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, 7 please. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 9 bill aside. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1333, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 12 6504, State Finance Law. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the last section. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on a minute. 16 Hold on one second. Last section. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last 18 section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6602 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1334, by Senator - 6 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 8 bill aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 1337, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 11 6851-A, Environmental Conservation Law and the 12 State Finance Law. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6603 1 1345, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 2 8452-A, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic 3 Law. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 5 last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 1386, by Senator Tully, Senate Bill - 16 SENATOR TULLY: Lay aside for the 17 day. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 19 bill aside. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 1395, by Senator Velella, Senate Bill Number 22 7195-A, an act to amend the Insurance Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6604 1 will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1396, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 12 7753-A, an act to amend the Agriculture and 13 Markets Law. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will read the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 23 is passed. 6605 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1407, by Senator Volker. 3 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay aside. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 5 bill aside. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1410, by Senator Stafford. 8 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 10 bill aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1420, by Senator Bruno, Senate Bill Number 13 7494-B, Economic Development Law and the 14 Executive Law. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay aside. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 17 bill aside. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1422, by member of the Assembly Luster, Assembly 20 Bill Number 9275-A, an act to amend the Labor 21 Law. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, 23 please. 6606 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 2 bill aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 1426, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, 5 Assembly Bill Number 11603-A, an act to amend 6 the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 1427, by Senator Pataki. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 20 please. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 22 bill aside. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6607 1 1428, by Senator Pataki, Senate Bill Number 2 7808, an act to amend the Criminal Procedure 3 Law. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect - 8 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 10 bill aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1432, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Bill Number 13 8405-A, an act to amend the Social Services 14 Law. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 16 will read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6608 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 1434, by Senator Sears, Senate Bill Number 4 8544-B, an act to amend the Public Authorities 5 Law and the Executive Law. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 7 last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 15 is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1435, by Senator Sears, Senate Bill Number 18 8553-B, an act to amend the Public Authorities 19 Law. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 21 last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 23 act shall take effect immediately. 6609 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 2 roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45, nays 5 one, Senator Seward recorded in the negative. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 7 is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 1437, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, 10 Assembly Bill Number 11994, an act to amend the 11 Local Finance Law. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 13 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 14 read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6610 1 1439, by Senator Stavisky, Senate Bill Number 2 426-A, an act to amend the Penal Law. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 4 last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 12 is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 1440, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 15 885-A, an act to amend the Public Health Law and 16 the Executive Law. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 19 bill aside. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 1441, by Senator Hannon, Senate Bill Number 22 2237-B, an act to amend the Public Health Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 6611 1 last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1442, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 12 2553-A, an act to amend the State Finance Law. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 14 last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6612 1 1443, by Senator Mendez, Senate Bill Number 2 2565-A, an act to amend the Mental Hygiene Law. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4 will read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 12 is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 1444, substituted earlier today, by member of 15 the Assembly Cook, Assembly Bill Number 1090, an 16 act to amend the Social Services Law. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 18 last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6613 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1445, by Senator Present, Senate Bill Number 6 4711-B, State Administrative Procedure Act. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 8 last section. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, 10 please. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 12 bill aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 1447, substituted earlier today by member of the 15 Assembly Kaufman, Assembly Bill Number 1678, an 16 act to amend the Real Property Law. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 18 will read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6614 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1448, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 6 5994-A, an act to amend the Public Health Law. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 8 last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 1449, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 19 6506-B. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 22 bill aside. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6615 1 1450, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly 2 Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 8075-A, 3 city of New York to reconvey its interest in 4 certain real property. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 6 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 7 read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 15 is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1451, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number 18 6759, an act to amend the State Finance Law. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside, 6616 1 please. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 3 bill aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1452, by Senator Present, Senate Bill Number 6 6884, an act to amend the Public Authorities 7 Law. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 9 last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1453, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 20 6948-A, an act to amend the Civil Service Law. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6617 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 3 roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 7 is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 1454, substituted earlier today, by member of 10 the Assembly Pordum, Assembly Bill Number 11 10681. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, 13 please. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 15 bill aside. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1455, substituted earlier today, by member of 18 the Assembly Cook, Assembly Bill Number 9575, 19 New York to reconvey its interest in certain 20 real property. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 22 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 23 read the last section. 6618 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 8 is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 1456, substituted earlier to day, by member of 11 the Assembly Vitaliano, Assembly Bill Number 12 10905, an act to amend the Family Court Act. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6619 1 1457, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 2 8070-B, an act to amend the Estates, Powers and 3 Trusts Law. 4 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside, 5 please. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 7 bill aside. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 1458, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 10 8229-A, an act to amend the Real Property Tax 11 Law. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 13 will read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect - 16 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 18 bill aside. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 1459, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 21 8255-A, an act to amend the Retirement and 22 Social Security Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6620 1 will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside, 7 please. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 9 bill aside. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1460, by Senator Sears, Senate Bill Number 12 8321-B, an act to amend Chapter 147 of the Laws 13 of 1994, amending the General Business Law. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will read the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 23 is passed. 6621 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1462, by Senator Lack, Senate Bill Number 8527, 3 an act in relation to appointment of certain 4 non-judicial officers and employees. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6 will read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 1463, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Bill Number 17 860... 18 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Gold? 21 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, the last 22 bill that we dealt with, was that '61 or '62. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 1462. 6622 1 SENATOR GOLD: '61 was amended, 2 is that it? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: '61 was 4 amended, that's right. 5 SENATOR GOLD: All right. In 6 that case, would you just reconsider the vote by 7 which Calendar 1462 just passed? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 9 is on the motion to reconsider the vote by which 10 1462 passed the Senate. Secretary will call the 11 roll on reconsideration. 12 (The Secretary called the roll on 13 reconsideration.) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, 15 Senator Gold. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Would you just lay 17 it aside? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay that 19 bill aside. 20 The Chair recognizes Senator 21 Wright. 22 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I 23 would request reconsideration of Calendar Number 6623 1 1460. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 question is on the motion to reconsider the vote 4 by which Calendar Number 1460 passed the 5 Senate. The Secretary will call the roll on 6 reconsideration. 7 (The Secretary called the roll on 8 reconsideration. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Bill is 11 before the house. Senator Wright? You wish it 12 to be laid aside? 13 SENATOR WRIGHT: Lay it aside. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Bill is 15 laid aside. 16 Secretary will continue to call 17 the non-controversial calendar commencing with 18 Calendar Number 1463. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 1463, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Bill Number 21 8602, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic 22 Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6624 1 -- Secretary will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1464, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 8653, 12 relation to making an additional apportionment 13 of building aid for the Ellenville Central 14 School. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay - 17 lay the bill aside. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1465, by Senator Maltese, Senate Bill Number 20 8677, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic 21 Law. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 23 last section. 6625 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 3 bill aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1466, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly 6 Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 11618, 7 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 8 relation to maximum dimensions of vehicles. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 1467, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly 21 Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 12093, 22 an act to amend the Public Authorities Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6626 1 Secretary will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1468, by Senator Spano. 12 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 13 for the day, please. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 15 bill aside for the day. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1469, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number 18 8770, Racing, Pari-mutuel Wagering and Breeding 19 Law. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 21 will read the last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 23 act shall take effect immediately. 6627 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 2 roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 5 the results when tabulated. 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48, nays 2, 7 Senators Padavan and Tully recorded in the 8 negative; also Senator Saland in the negative. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 10 is passed. 11 Senator Present, that completes 12 the non-controversial calling. What's your 13 pleasure? 14 SENATOR PRESENT: Let's take up 15 the controversial calendar, regular order. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 17 will read the controversial calendar. 18 THE SECRETARY: On page 5, 19 Calendar Number 261, by Senator Daly, Senate 20 Bill Number 4583-E, an act to amend the Real 21 Property Law, in relation to establishing a New 22 York State Real Estate Board. 23 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yeah. Will the 6628 1 Senator yield? Will the Senator yield to just a 2 question or two? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Daly, do you yield to Senator Padavan? 5 SENATOR DALY: I certainly will. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 yields. 8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, just a 9 technical question. 10 SENATOR DALY: M-m h-m-m. 11 SENATOR PADAVAN: I see the 12 calendar says 4583-E, in our desks, the bill 13 that is in there is "D". Would you tell us what 14 the difference is? 15 SENATOR DALY: Yes, I'd be happy 16 to, Senator. 17 We have changed language. 18 Actually the "E" version is a result of a 19 three-way negotiation between the Secretary of 20 State's office, the Assembly and the Senate, and 21 we've made several changes. 22 One, the bill now establishes 23 within the Department of State a real estate 6629 1 board consisting of 14 members and the Secretary 2 of State. We've changed the language to clearly 3 indicate -- clearly indicate that a majority of 4 the members of the board have to be 5 non-realtors. 6 There was a question as to the 7 intent of the "D" version was to have a majority 8 of the members not to be realtors. We cleared 9 the language -- we clarified the language to 10 make sure that no one could question that a 11 majority of the board will be non-realtors. 12 Nine will be appointed by the Governor, six will 13 be appointed by the Legislature, two by the 14 Majority Leaders and Speaker, one by the 15 Minority Leader of each house. 16 We've also tightened up the 17 language in the section of the law that you're 18 quite concerned about, Senator, and I'll read 19 that for you. 20 Under -- on line 45, page 3, it 21 says the Secretary of State, and not the state 22 board of real estate established under sections 23 442 (i) and 442 (j) of this article, shall adopt 6630 1 such rules and regulations as the Secretary may 2 determine are necessary for the administration, 3 enforcement of Section 442 (h). 4 SENATOR PADAVAN: Will the 5 Senator yield just to one question? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Daly, do you yield to another question? Senator 8 yields. 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Did I hear you 10 say a moment ago that this "E" print is a result 11 of three-way negotiations? 12 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Does that mean 14 that this bill has the concurrence of the 15 Secretary of State? 16 SENATOR DALY: I have nothing in 17 writing to tell you that, Senator. I can just 18 tell you that her chief counsel, Mr. Baldwin, 19 worked with the Assembly and with the Senate in 20 changing the language in this legislation and 21 we've had no -- I've had no calls from the 22 Secretary of State. I take for granted, since 23 her counsel was in the negotiations, that this 6631 1 is acceptable, but we've heard nothing, you 2 know, in all honesty we've heard nothing from 3 the Secretary of State since the negotiations 4 were complete. 5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, in all 6 candor, Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Daly, do you continue to yield? 9 SENATOR DALY: Yes, I will, Mr. 10 President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Daly continues to yield. 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: In all candor, 14 I have no obviously reason to doubt, and I 15 concur with the logic of your conclusion, 16 namely, that if they were involved in making 17 changes, but the problem that I have and perhaps 18 others do, is that we have a very recent letter 19 from the Secretary of State -- I don't have it 20 here to give you the date -- in opposition to 21 this bill, and would it be possible to allow 22 just a brief period of time to find out whether 23 the Secretary of State has indicated that she 6632 1 now approves this bill by virtue of what you 2 have stated as a matter of fact, there were 3 negotiations that involved her counsel? 4 SENATOR DALY: I'd be happy to, 5 but I'll make one more point which may satisfy 6 you. 7 SENATOR PADAVAN: Please. 8 SENATOR DALY: We took the 9 language that the Secretary of State's office 10 gave us for the 442 (h). That is the language 11 that -- we accepted their language, Senator. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 13 recognizes Senator Gold. 14 SENATOR GOLD: No, all I was 15 going to say was, with Senator Daly's 16 permission, this bill has gone through a number 17 of prints, and what I'm told is that it's 18 probably fine in its present state, but not to 19 be facetious, these bills are still warm. They 20 -- and we would like some opportunity just to 21 check them out, and I think Senator Padavan has 22 a good idea. 23 I don't think there's going to be 6633 1 a problem, but it might be worthwhile if we 2 handled it just a little later in the day. 3 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 4 SENATOR GOLD: I want you to 5 understand, Senator Daly, I'm not indicating 6 that we have a problem. 7 SENATOR DALY: I fully understand 8 that. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Daly? 11 SENATOR DALY: Out of courtesy to 12 my two colleagues, lay the bill aside. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Daly is asking for the bill to be laid aside. 15 Calendar Number 261 will be laid aside 16 temporarily. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 293, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 184-A, 19 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 21 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 22 temporarily. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay 6634 1 Calendar Number 293 aside temporarily. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 414, by Senator Tully, Senate Bill Number 4 4484-B, an act to amend the Education Law, in 5 relation to the definition of dental assistant. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 7 recognizes Senator Gold. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Would Senator 9 Tully yield to a question? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Tully, do you yield? 12 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 13 President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Tully yields. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Tully, my 17 notes indicate that on the "A" print - 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Gold I may interrupt for a minute. It's awfully 20 noisy in here. I think you're probably having 21 as hard time hearing as I am. Ladies and 22 gentlemen, can we have a little order in the 23 chamber, please. Discussions in the back of the 6635 1 chamber, could we take them outside of the 2 chamber. Staff members please sit down in your 3 seats, Senators take their places. We're in for 4 a long day, makes it a lot easier, a lot 5 quicker, if we can hear each other in our points 6 to be made. Thank you. 7 Senator Gold. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 9 President. 10 Senator Tully, my notes indicate 11 that, on the "A" print of this bill, the Dental 12 Hygienists Association of New York State was 13 opposed. Now, you've got a "B" print, and I was 14 wondering if you could tell us what the "B" 15 print changed, and does that, in effect, deal 16 with the memo of the hygienists? 17 SENATOR TULLY: The answer to 18 that, Mr. President, is yes, but they still are 19 opposed. 20 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Well, 21 could you tell us, though, what the "B" print 22 did do? 23 SENATOR TULLY: Well, I'll read 6636 1 them for you. 2 On page 1, line 3, the word 3 "certified" is inserted. 4 On page 1, line 8, "applying 5 topical anesthetics" is removed. 6 On page 2, line 7, "facility" is 7 changed to "office," and on page 7, lines 15 to 8 "B" there are -- 15 to 17, there are additional 9 changes, which basically indicates that what 10 dental hygienists do, dental assistants can do 11 as well. Actually, the reverse, what dental 12 assistants can do, dental hygienists can do. 13 But my teeth are starting to bother me a little. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Well, I'm not 15 going to argue with anybody who had an ace on 16 his birthday. 17 But, Senator, from what I 18 understand, they have not withdrawn the 19 opposition; is that correct? 20 SENATOR TULLY: That's correct, 21 Mr. President, and I think, even in the face of 22 that, Assemblyman Silver assures us that it will 23 pass in the Assembly as well. 6637 1 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 10 the results when tabulated. 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50, nays 12 one, Senator DeFrancisco recorded in the 13 negative. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 15 is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 653, by Senator Hannon, Senate Bill Number 18 276-B, an act to amend the Public Housing Law. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Hannon, an explanation has been asked for on 22 Calendar Number 653 by Senator Gold. 23 SENATOR HANNON: This would put 6638 1 into law an index to be set by the Commissioner 2 of Taxation and Finance for the interest rates 3 that would be paid on judgments or accrued 4 claims by state, local government and by public 5 authorities. Currently, it's at a fixed rate. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Gold. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, just for the 9 information of the members, there is a memo in 10 support from NYCOM, and the New York State Trial 11 Lawyers has a memorandum in opposition. 12 Obviously, the lowering of the interest rate 13 affects the value of the judgments. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will read the last section. 16 Senator - 17 SENATOR HANNON: Senator, the 18 Trial Lawyers' memo is on the unamended bill. 19 SENATOR GOLD: That is true. 20 SENATOR HANNON: We have an 21 agreement by the Minority floor leader that the 22 memo in opposition was on the unamended bill. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Mr. 6639 1 President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Gold. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Hannon is 5 absolutely accurate. 6 Will you yield to one question? 7 SENATOR HANNON: Yes, sir. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Hannon yields. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Is there 11 anything in the "B" print that would affect 12 their original objection? Their objection was 13 to the issue of lowering the interest rate, as I 14 understand it, and what that would do to the 15 value of judgments. 16 SENATOR HANNON: There is -- I 17 don't think so, and in any event we put both a 18 floor and a ceiling on the range of the index. 19 The floor would be four and a half percent and 20 the -- four and one-quarter percent and the 21 ceiling would be nine percent. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the last section. 6640 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 8 is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 698, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 7573, 11 an act to amend the Penal Law. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 13 will read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 21 is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 894, by Senator Rath, Senate Bill Number 7054-C, 6641 1 an act to amend the State Administrative 2 Procedure Act. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 4 yield to one question? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Rath, do you yield to Senator Gold? 7 SENATOR RATH: Yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 yields. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Senator, 11 there was one of these one-liners from 12 Department of Environmental Conservation on the 13 "A" print. I was wondering whether or not the 14 "C" print was done with any consultation with 15 them or addressing any of their concerns? 16 SENATOR RATH: Yes. What came of 17 this as we went along with the Assembly ARRC, 18 and as you can see we're in a "C" print on this, 19 what is now going to be necessary is that all 20 efforts that are made to identify conflicting 21 regulations with other state agencies will be 22 documented, not just as they are stated that 23 they are conflicting, but efforts to resolve the 6642 1 conflict, so that's basically what the differ 2 ence is, and you'll note that this was passed 3 unanimously June 1st here in this chamber and 4 then, when we went to negotiate with the 5 Assembly ARRC, some of these were developed and 6 we are awaiting momentarily a number from 7 Assemblyman Kaufman. He has agreed and is 8 working this on the floor over in the Assembly. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, 10 Senator. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 896, by Senator Rath, Senate Bill Number 7443-B, 23 an act to amend the State Administrative 6643 1 Procedure Act. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Last section. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4 will read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 12 is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 1105, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number 15 7970-A, proposing an amendment to the 16 Constitution, in relation to the use of certain 17 forest preserve land. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 19 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: 20 Explanation. 21 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay the bill 22 aside temporarily. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 6644 1 bill aside temporarily. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 1261, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 4 1902-C, an act to amend the Agriculture and 5 Markets Law. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on a second. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 1287, by Senator Rath. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 21 bill aside temporarily. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 1323, by the Senate Committee on Rules. 6645 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 2 temporarily. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 4 bill aside temporarily. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 1334, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 7 6505-A, an act to amend the State Finance Law. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Saland, an explanation of Calendar Number 1334 11 has been asked for by Senator Gold. 12 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 13 President. Mr. President, let me just find my 14 correct folder here, if you'll indulge me a 15 moment. 16 What this bill does is basically 17 to expand the competitive bidding process to a 18 number of previously exempted entities. It 19 provides for agencies, boards, divisions, 20 councils and public authorities to be subject to 21 the same competitive bidding requirements that 22 currently apply to the executive branch. 23 There is an exemption provided 6646 1 for the Power Authority and the purpose of that 2 exemption is that the Power Authority finds 3 itself in a rather unique situation where public 4 safety may, from time to time, dictate some 5 rather rapid action on their part such as a 6 problem at a facility where a facility goes 7 down, particularly if it's a nuclear facility 8 and they immediately have to go out and procure 9 or secure equipment and be able to get that 10 facility back on line. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Leichter, why do you rise? 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 14 I have an amendment at the desk. I don't want 15 to interrupt Senator Saland if he's still 16 continuing his explanation and actually, I want 17 to ask him before I get to the amendment, I also 18 want to ask a question. I don't know; is this a 19 good time to do that? 20 SENATOR SALAND: Certainly, 21 Senator. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Saland, do you yield -- Senator Saland, do you 6647 1 yield to a question from Senator Leichter? 2 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 3 President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 yields, Senator Leichter. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 7 understand that you've amended this bill now to 8 exempt the Power Authority from this requirement 9 of public bidding; is that correct? 10 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Senator 11 Leichter. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Could you tell 13 us why that was done? 14 SENATOR SALAND: Well, I did that 15 in my explanation, but permit me again. The 16 Power Authority from time to time finds itself 17 in a very unique type of a situation where 18 public safety dictates that it immediately 19 acquire sometimes very unique equipment, major 20 equipment, equipment necessary when a facility 21 may go down, and that has occurred. If it's a 22 nuclear facility, obviously, there's tremendous 23 concern for public safety, and we certainly 6648 1 can't take the time to do a competitive bidding 2 procedure. Public safety would certainly be 3 elevated to a level that would require us to by 4 pass that. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, 6 request if you'd be good enough to yield to 7 another question. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Saland, do you continue to yield? 10 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 does. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: In the law 15 that you're amending, isn't there presently an 16 exemption where there is a matter of public 17 safety? I believe that all of the public 18 bidding requirements are always subject to 19 exemptions where there's a matter of public 20 safety. 21 SENATOR SALAND: You're correct 22 in part, Senator. There is a -- a procedure by 23 which there is an exemption available to you if 6649 1 you make an application, and I believe that's to 2 OGS. We feel that, if you have a nuclear 3 facility just by way of example that's gone 4 down, time is of the essence. Whatever has to 5 be done has to be done as rapidly as possible, 6 without really, in light of the public safety 7 element, going to OGS to -- to secure approval. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. If it's 9 convenient for you, I'm going to offer up my 10 amendment at this time. 11 SENATOR SALAND: Certainly. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 13 I believe there's an amendment at the desk. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Leichter, the Secretary indicates to me that 16 there is an amendment at the desk. You're 17 asking that the reading be waived, that you have 18 an opportunity to explain it. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Right. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Leichter to explain his amendment. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Fine. Thank 23 you very much. 6650 1 I happen to feel, and I think 2 many members on this side of the aisle believe 3 that public bidding is a good thing and we 4 support the idea of extending public bidding, 5 and what this amendment does is to extend - 6 what Senator Saland is trying to do to reach 7 more public bodies and require public bidding, 8 and we include in our -- in our bill, every 9 agency, board, commission, division, council, 10 office, regulating district or bureau or public 11 authority or public benefit corporation. 12 Senator Saland's bill is limited 13 to certain authorities or public bodies where 14 there is an appointment by the Governor. It 15 doesn't reach a lot of local authorities who 16 engage in purchasing goods and services. 17 Furthermore, as the colloquy between Senator 18 Saland has just shown, he has now exempted the 19 New York Power Authority and, frankly, for 20 reasons I can not understand because, while he's 21 perfectly correct when he states that there may 22 be emergencies, as he conceded, the law now 23 provides that, if you have an emergency, there's 6651 1 a procedure by which there's independent 2 verification that the emergency exists and that 3 you are then freed from the requirement of 4 public bidding. 5 Senator Saland says, Well, 6 suppose you've got a problem with a nuclear 7 reactor. You got to go out and buy a bolt or 8 whatever you need to buy, but you could do that, 9 and it's not a lengthy procedure. The whole 10 idea is that you want some agency or some body, 11 an independent body, determining whether the 12 emergency really exists. 13 I mean I could see instances 14 where the State Police, which is under the 15 requirement of public bidding may say, We're out 16 of bullets. Well, they can get an exemption. 17 There can be any number of agency situations 18 where there's an emergency every bit as serious 19 as with the Power Authority, and I really don't 20 understand why the Power Authority is being 21 exempted. Indeed, until recently, when there 22 was a change in the leadership of the Power 23 Authority, that was an authority that you very 6652 1 much wanted to put under public bidding, because 2 there seemed to be a number of inappropriate 3 actions that had been done by that agency. 4 But if public bidding is a good 5 idea, and I think we're committed to it, if 6 we're in favor of Senator Saland's approach 7 which is extend public bidding not just to state 8 agencies, make it applicable to all authorities, 9 local authorities, local bodies, why wouldn't we 10 want to see that public bidding is universally 11 applied in New York State, that we want to say 12 to the taxpayers of this state, we have taken 13 every possible step to see that the procurement 14 of goods and services by public bodies is going 15 to be done in the most efficient and cost 16 effective way, which is public bidding? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Leichter, could I interrupt you for just a 19 minute for a technical equipment change. Thank 20 you for your indulgence. 21 Thank you, Senator Leichter. 22 Senator Leichter on the amendment. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Let's, 6653 1 if public bidding is right and we believe it's 2 right, it doesn't belong just to the state 3 government, it doesn't belong just with public 4 bodies where the Governor has an appointment, 5 it's a -- it's a principle, it's a practice that 6 ought to be applied to the Power Authority and 7 it ought to be applied to any public benefit 8 corporation. 9 Mr. President, I move the 10 amendment. 11 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President, 12 on the amendment. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Saland, on the amendment. 15 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President, I 16 certainly am pleased that at least Senator 17 Leichter and I start off from the same basic 18 premise, being concerned about the fact that 19 these public entities be subjected to 20 competitive bidding. 21 My assumption is that, if we had 22 the time to sit down and look at the General 23 Municipal Law, that Senator Leichter and I would 6654 1 probably be in substantial agreement that the 2 General Municipal Law has certainly made 3 adequate provision for local governments being 4 subjected to competitive bidding. I would 5 assume that there are comparable provisions in 6 other portions of our statutes to cover counties 7 and the like, and if somehow or other they're 8 less than adequate, I'd be more than happy to 9 look at those as well. 10 This amendment deals with one 11 bill in a series of bills that I've introduced 12 in response to what I thought was a drastic need 13 to reform the current contract bidding processes 14 in our state, and I would point out that the 15 language that deals with gubernatorial 16 appointments is, at least as was intended and I 17 believe is present here intended to deal with 18 public authorities or public benefit corps. All 19 agencies, boards, commissions, divisions, 20 councils, and everything preceding that language 21 would be required to comply, and what we're 22 attempting to do is to limit the involvement to 23 those areas in which those boards and 6655 1 authorities were actually engaged in some type 2 of state activity where there was -- where they 3 were not relatively benign enterprises or 4 authorities that had little or no state 5 involvement. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 7 recognizes Senator Gold on the amendment. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. Mr. 9 President -- first, Senator Saland, the reason 10 for that is, I think Senator Leichter already 11 pointed out is there is no provision in the law 12 in that area, but I want to just say one thing, 13 Senator Saland. 14 This bill, and not necessarily 15 through your fault, but this bill shows why our 16 committee systems do not work in the New York 17 State Senate, because this bill which talks 18 about being referred to the Finance Committee, 19 was discussed in the Rules Committee when it was 20 reported out, and we pointed out in the Rules 21 Committee that there should be some expansion. 22 Now, Senator Saland says he'd be 23 willing to meet with Senator Leichter and go 6656 1 through the laws. That's what we're supposed to 2 be doing. Maybe I'm missing the boat here. I 3 read the Constitution pretty good, and I read 4 the Legislative Law. That's what we're supposed 5 to be doing is taking an idea by Senator Saland 6 which deals with an area and bring it before a 7 committee, and then, lo and behold, we have the 8 mind of Leichter and the mind of Mary Ellen 9 Jones and others who can go into this process 10 and, lo and behold, we have a bill that has it 11 all, and that's what we're talking about. 12 Now, Senator Saland, I don't know 13 whether this bill is a so-called two-house bill 14 at this late date, and I hear that we're moving 15 towards adjournment, but my suggestion, Senator 16 Saland is, if it is not, in fact, a two-house 17 bill, we ought to adopt the amendment and then 18 the amendment is out there on the table as an 19 improved version of the Saland bill and then we 20 have a legislature that's operating and working, 21 but to stand up and say -- and it's not only 22 you, Senator Saland; this is something we hear 23 every day from members of the Republican side, 6657 1 Well, if you think that's a good idea, then you 2 put in a bill and, you know, I put in my idea, 3 you put in your idea. That really isn't the way 4 we believe a Legislature ought to work and, as I 5 pointed out before, if that's the way 6 legislatures should work, there isn't one of 7 your Republican colleagues in the New York -- in 8 the United States House of Representatives that 9 would have anything to do. But it's not the way 10 legislative bodies work. People come together 11 and they give their ideas and you approve 12 legislation. 13 So I really would urge very 14 seriously that the Leichter amendment improves 15 an idea which is put before us by Senator 16 Saland. Senator Saland gets a lot of credit for 17 bringing the idea before us. It doesn't get 18 diminished if somebody else in this house has 19 some idea that builds upon it. So I would urge 20 very strongly that we adopt the Leichter 21 amendment, set some precedent around here, and 22 then move on to the next bill. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 6658 1 is on the amendment. All those in favor of 2 adopting the amendment signify by saying aye. 3 (Response of "Aye.") 4 Opposed nay. 5 (Response of "Nay.") 6 That was a close one again, but 7 the nays won. Amendment is defeated. 8 Is there any Senator wishing to 9 speak on the bill? Hearing none, the Secretary 10 will read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 The Chair recognizes Senator 20 Present. 21 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 22 could we call up Calendar 1323. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6659 1 will read Calendar Number 1323. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 1323, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate 4 Bill Number 8641, an act to amend the Insurance 5 Law, in relation to continuing the purpose and 6 extending the existence of the Medical 7 Malpractice Insurance Association. 8 SENATOR SOLOMON: Explanation. 9 Explanation. 10 SENATOR VELELLA: Oh. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Velella, an explanation has been asked of 13 Calendar Number 1323 by Senator Solomon. 14 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. This bill 15 is an annual bill that we extend the second tier 16 of medical malpractice insurance. This would be 17 a two-year renewal so that we wouldn't have to 18 deal with it every year. It extends the 19 existence of the MMIA, and it opens up the 20 market to those people who are writing primary 21 insurance to the degree that they write that 22 primary insurance to be able to sell to doctors 23 that second tier of medical coverage which is 6660 1 provided for free of charge to the doctors, that 2 second million dollars of coverage. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 4 recognizes Senator Solomon. 5 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. 7 Senator Velella, let's take note 8 of the time, because I said five minutes. 9 SENATOR VELELLA: Could you speak 10 up. I couldn't - 11 SENATOR SOLOMON: I just want to 12 take note of the time. 13 Senator -- Mr. President, will 14 Senator Velella yield? 15 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Velella, do you yield? 18 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 yields. 21 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, can 22 you tell me why we're removing, since we started 23 the experimental period last year and we limited 6661 1 it to three percent, why we now have to limit 2 the three percent total premium? 3 SENATOR VELELLA: Why we have to 4 eliminate it? 5 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes. 6 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. Well, 7 when we did this originally, we broke ground 8 because this had been a monopoly for a few 9 companies who were making a tremendous amount of 10 money. In its wisdom last year, the Senate 11 decided we ought to start to open this market up 12 to other companies so that there would be some 13 fair competition and allow companies that write 14 primary coverage to also write the extra excess 15 coverage. 16 Three percent was the number we 17 had arrived at through negotiation last year. 18 Since then, Medical -- Medical Mutual -- Medical 19 Liability Mutual has been approved to write the 20 business. PRI has a pending application; 21 Academic Health has been rejected, and Frontier 22 has chosen not to apply for this benefit because 23 what's happened in the marketplace is -- and 6662 1 this is one of the reasons why PRI was delayed 2 and has just filed an application -- one of the 3 reasons is that studying the opportunity or the 4 business experience and the actuarial reports, 5 three percent of the market was really 6 questionable as to whether or not it could turn 7 a profit. 8 We have decided -- I have decided 9 in this bill that what we ought to do is open 10 the market up to everybody who wants to compete 11 fairly and on an equal basis up to the amount of 12 primary insurance that they write. If they 13 write the primary policy, they ought to be able 14 to offer to write the excess policy and put 15 every company on an equal footing. 16 The Superintendent is examining 17 each of these applicants. Obviously one was 18 rejected, so there are standards, and it would 19 make the marketplace, in my opinion, much more 20 competitive and, hopefully, bring down some of 21 the rates that we see in malpractice insurance. 22 SENATOR SOLOMON: M-m h-m-m. 23 Mr. President, if Senator Velella 6663 1 will yield for one more question. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Velella, you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Velella yields. 7 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, 8 doesn't this bill have the possibility of 9 leading to "cherry picking" where, in fact, the 10 not-for-profit insurers such as MMIA and HANYS 11 are, in effect, left with the higher risks and 12 the likelihood that the premiums won't be 13 sufficient to cover losses? 14 SENATOR VELELLA: I always get a 15 little nervous reaction to the word "cherry 16 picking" because that prompted us to take some 17 actions about two years ago that I think maybe 18 we would have been wiser if we had not taken to 19 try and eliminate "cherry picking;" but in this 20 particular case, I really think the contrary is 21 true because each company that would wish to 22 write the excess policy would be limited to 23 writing the policy for those people that they 6664 1 have the primary insurance on. So they have 2 already made the rational decision to accept 3 this person as a risk. It's just that they're 4 limited, that their risk is up to one million 5 dollars, the first million dollars. If they now 6 decide and are given the permission to write the 7 second layer of coverage, they're going to be 8 primarily responsible for that first million 9 where the big risk is; so I don't think you're 10 going to see any "cherry picking" in this 11 situation. I think the motivation is to just 12 write the extra risk and keep the people that 13 you've already determined are your clients are 14 your customers. 15 SENATOR SOLOMON: All right. On 16 the bill. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Solomon, on the bill. 19 SENATOR SOLOMON: Unfortunately 20 that's exactly what's going to happen under this 21 program. We're going to have some of the 22 privates such as PRI picking the better risks 23 and leaving the not-for-profit, the HANY and 6665 1 MMIA with those that are in the riskier 2 practice. 3 It could also impact that second 4 tier of coverage where HANYS and MMIA have been 5 picking up, in fact, much of the cost of that 6 second tier of coverage from the excess that 7 they've earned in the past. 8 I really question this bill. 9 We've been dealing with this subject now, I 10 guess this must be the fourth year in a row that 11 we've been dealing with this form of bill in one 12 way or another, and I think what this bill could 13 lead to, if it's implemented in its current 14 form, is an additional problem with the medical 15 malpractice crisis, especially for that second 16 tier of coverage, that second one million 17 dollars worth of coverage which the hospital has 18 to provide now for their insureds, and you've 19 all received calls and you've seen the doctors 20 up here. I can tell you now, if this bill 21 passes in its current form, we'll have an 22 additional impact on malpractice insurance 23 rates, a negative impact, and we'll be back here 6666 1 again next year. 2 So I suggest a no vote. Thank 3 you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read the last section. 6 Senator Dollinger, you wish to 7 speak? The Chair recognizes Senator Dollinger 8 on the bill. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator 10 Velella yield to a question, make sure I 11 understand the bill. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Velella yield? 14 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Velella yields. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I just have 18 two. As I understand it, the MMIA has a pool, a 19 fund of cash available. Didn't we tap into that 20 last year during the budget process? 21 SENATOR VELELLA: We've done some 22 pretty questionable things with that money, yes, 23 I agree. They were only precipitated by the 6667 1 extreme emergencies in the state of New York 2 but, yes, we've tapped into that money where 3 maybe we shouldn't have, but it was necessary. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. And we 5 put some dry appropriations back into it is my 6 recollection again? 7 SENATOR VELELLA: No, or did we? 8 There's an appropriation of 300 million put back 9 in. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. But we 11 didn't fund that. We just sort of - 12 SENATOR VELELLA: No, it was dry. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Again 14 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Velella 15 will continue to yield. What is the current 16 status of the fund as far as cash and its -- the 17 reason why I raise this, Senator, is because in 18 a discussion in the Health Committee with 19 Senator Tully, one of the representatives from 20 the New York State Medical Society suggested 21 that the fund was actually underfunded because 22 the claims filed against it already exceeded the 23 amount of assets in the fund and yet, as I 6668 1 recall, during our discussion a year ago when we 2 did that dry appropriation, the suggestion was 3 made that there was about a billion dollars in 4 the fund and that it had never really been 5 tapped to cover excess. So I'm just -- I'm 6 interested in the solvency of the fund. 7 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, from 8 my limited experience, this is one of the most 9 lucrative insurance writing policies that are 10 out there. There's a tremendous amount of 11 profit made from this insurance, and I'm advised 12 that the present status of the fund is in excess 13 of 75 -- $75 million, over surplus. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Now, is that 15 surplus calculated 75 million beyond the claims 16 that have been - 17 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. That's 18 beyond because they have reserves for claims 19 that come in. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 21 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Velella 22 will continue to yield. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6669 1 Velella, you continue to yield? 2 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Senator continues to yield. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So I can 6 verify the comment made by the Medical Society 7 what's the value of the claims that have been 8 made against the fund? 9 SENATOR VELELLA: Oh, I don't 10 know the value of the claims. All I know is 11 that when claims are made, they're required to 12 set aside reserves, and over and above those 13 reserves, they have a $75 million surplus. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. 15 SENATOR VELELLA: I couldn't give 16 you the amount that would be in claims. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. I was 18 concerned, through you, Mr. President, about the 19 status and the solvency since Mr. -- Dr. Ellman 20 from the Medical Society had suggested that the 21 fund might have been insolvent. I thought if 22 that was the case, we might have to do something 23 more than just simply extend it, but to your 6670 1 knowledge, Senator, we're still in the black on 2 the fund vis-a-vis the amount of cash in there 3 offset by the amount of claims made against it? 4 SENATOR VELELLA: We're still in 5 the black. There is a $75 million surplus and, 6 as I've just been advised by counsel, the claims 7 on that excess coverage, not the first million 8 coverage. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right. 10 SENATOR VELELLA: That second 11 million that we provide free of charge to the 12 doctors are very minimal and are totally 13 reserved and that this is an excess of funds of 14 75 million. Now, please don't run out and spend 15 it, O.K.? 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right. 17 SENATOR VELELLA: But it's there. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But actually 19 -- again through you, Mr. President. One of 20 the - 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Velella, you continue to yield? 23 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 6671 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 yields. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: One of the 4 questions I have is not whether we go out and 5 spend it, but whether, if we do have that excess 6 reserve, we can begin to reduce the contribution 7 in it, so since we've got that money there, we 8 can reduce the contribution, reduce the cost to 9 the people who are paying the premiums and 10 selling them, and give a little bit back. Is 11 that possible? 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, I 13 would support your concept, but I am not an 14 actuary, and I don't profess to be, and I would 15 say that I would leave that kind of a decision 16 up to the actuaries and the insurance 17 professionals to decide if the surplus is so 18 much that it might be a time to reduce premium 19 or what anticipated -- and again this is guess 20 work -- what anticipated claims might be. That 21 anybody could speculate to. So I wouldn't want 22 to substitute my judgment for people who are 23 trained actuaries in that area. 6672 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. That 2 actually ties in with the final observation I'd 3 just make, and I now see given one of the other 4 questions I was going to ask, Mr. President, was 5 why we were just rolling it over for two years, 6 but I think Senator Velella has provided the 7 answer, which is at some point we might sit down 8 and look at whether the excess that we've 9 collected could be rebated in the form of 10 reduction in premiums or reduction in cost at 11 some time in the future. I assume we can do 12 that when the two-year extension expires with 13 the next session of this Legislature and sit 14 down and review those kinds of issues. 15 SENATOR VELELLA: Certainly we 16 can do that, Senator, but to put your mind at 17 rest, I have just been given a statistic that 18 might make it a little easier for you and I to 19 accept. Since 1985 and through 1993 there were 20 only $30 million in claims paid out from this 21 excess fund, so from 1985 to 1993 we paid out 30 22 million. We have a surplus over and above 23 reserves of 75 million. Not being an actuary, I 6673 1 would think we're in pretty sound shape. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. O.K. 3 That was my question. I thank Senator Velella. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 7 act shall take effect July 1. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Skelos to explain his vote. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 14 I'd like to have unanimous consent to abstain. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 16 objection, Senator Skelos will be marked as 17 abstaining. 18 Announce the results when 19 tabulated. 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51, nays 2, 21 Senators Paterson and Solomon recorded in the 22 negative. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 6674 1 recognizes Senator Present. 2 The bill is passed. 3 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 4 can we take up Calendar 293. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The last 6 bill was passed. 7 SENATOR LEVY: Could we just lay 8 it aside for a couple minutes. O.K.? Thank 9 you. 10 SENATOR PRESENT: Two minutes! 11 Lay it aside. Go on to the regular order. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar 13 293 will be laid aside. Secretary will read the 14 controversial calendar in regular order. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 1386, by Senator Tully, Senate Bill Number 8739, 17 an act to amend the Public Health Law. 18 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 19 temporarily. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 21 bill aside temporarily. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 1407, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 6675 1 8606, establish a moratorium on requiring any 2 disconnection from the Letchworth State Park 3 water line. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: An 6 explanation has been asked for, Senator 7 Present. 8 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 9 temporarily. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 11 bill aside temporarily. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 1410, by Senator Stafford. 14 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 15 temporarily. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 17 bill aside temporarily. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1420, by Senator Bruno. 20 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 21 for the day. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 23 bill aside for the day. 6676 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1422, by member of the Assembly Luster, Assembly 3 Bill Number 9275-A, an act to amend the Labor 4 Law. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6 will read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 1427, by Senator Pataki. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 18 bill aside. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 1428, by Senator Pataki, Senate Bill Number 21 7808, an act to amend the Criminal Procedure 22 Law. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 6677 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 3 bill aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1440, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 6 885-A, an act to amend the Public Health Law and 7 the Executive Law. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Saland, an explanation has been asked for on 11 Calendar Number 1440 by Senator Gold. 12 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 13 President. 14 Mr. President, this bill is a 15 bill which, in many respects is similar, if not 16 substantially similar to a bill that we passed 17 here in this house, I believe either two or 18 three years ago with some 50-some-odd votes. 19 What this bill would do would be 20 to create a mechanism in compliance with federal 21 law that would enable a victim who has been the 22 subject of a -- of a sexual offense to request 23 the court to have her and sometimes his 6678 1 assailant tested to determine if that person was 2 HIV positive. 3 The bill uses a "reasonable 4 cause" standard. The importance of this bill is 5 that, if we do not adopt such a bill by 6 September 30th of this year, our state will lose 7 ten percent of its federal drug monies pursuant 8 to what I believe is the Edward Byrne Memorial 9 local, and I believe state law enforcement 10 program that the federal government maintains. 11 What that means in this year is a loss of some 12 $2.2 million. In fact, that $2.2 million has 13 effectively been taken from New York. We have 14 the ability to get that money should we enact 15 legislation prior to September 30, and I fear 16 that the likelihood of our having the 17 opportunity to do that, if we don't do it within 18 the next couple of days, may well be beyond our 19 ability. 20 Not only do we lose that money, 21 but thereafter, forever more, barring a change 22 in the federal legislation, we will always lose 23 ten percent of our drug money, always lose ten 6679 1 percent of the Byrne monies. I don't know how 2 many countless of millions that will amount to 3 as we continue to suffer those ten percent 4 losses. 5 Some thirty... 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 7 SENATOR SALAND: ... seven 8 states, as I understand it, most recently, maybe 9 as recently as two weeks ago, had adopted this 10 legislation or some form of this legislation. 11 New York is one of the few holdouts. This... 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 13 President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Leichter, why do you rise? 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Can I ask a 17 question of Senator Saland? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Saland, do you yield to a question from Senator 20 Leichter? 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: You want to 22 finish? 23 SENATOR SALAND: May I just 6680 1 conclude, and I'll be more than happy to 2 entertain any questions, Senator Leichter. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Sure. 4 SENATOR SALAND: This bill, I 5 fear, has been ensnared in the controversy that 6 always surrounds the AIDS controversy. This 7 bill is not a bill which is intended to do 8 anything but be a victims' rights bill and to 9 entitle victims to have the ability where they 10 should choose to make application to a court in 11 an appropriate case to get an order of that 12 court to have their assailant tested. 13 The bill which is about, I 14 believe, four pages long, five pages, has a 15 number of provisions in it dealing with 16 confidentiality, dealing with counseling, 17 dealing with a host of other topics which I 18 think make it a very balanced bill. 19 Thank you, Mr. President. I 20 apologize for not yielding to you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Saland, will you yield to Senator Leichter's 23 questions? 6681 1 SENATOR SALAND: Yes. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Leichter, Senator Saland yields. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: I was just 5 trying to correct, I believe, a statement that 6 you made as regards our need to pass this bill 7 to comply with federal law which really goes to 8 the heart of the problem that I have with this 9 bill, and I think some others have with it. 10 Federal law, as I understand it, 11 and as I'm advised, requires that we provide 12 that somebody who is convicted -- convicted 13 under state law of a sexual offense which could 14 conceivably transmit the HIV virus, be tested. 15 Your bill goes far beyond that. 16 Your bill provides for testing of people who 17 have not been convicted. Am I not correct, 18 Senator, that we do not have to pass a bill 19 which requires that persons who are not 20 convicted, who only are indicted, charged with a 21 sexual crime, be tested and that's what your 22 bill does. 23 SENATOR SALAND: Permit me, if I 6682 1 might. Let me refer you to the Governor's Task 2 Force on Rape and Sexual Assault, the report of 3 April 1990, Rape, Sexual Assault and Child 4 Sexual Abuse, and let me share with you what the 5 Governor's Task Force said. Now, this is the 6 Governor's Task Force, a number of people of 7 renown, scholars, law professors, AIDS advocates 8 I assume, although I can't say that with any 9 certainty, but certainly a number of victims' 10 advocates, and let me read to you because they 11 address this question in their report. Let me 12 read in part. 13 Their recommendation 16: "An 14 efficient process should be developed by which a 15 victim of rape and sexual assault can easily 16 access" -- and they go on to say, "the civil 17 court system -- to seek a court order to require 18 HIV test financing of an alleged sexual offender 19 to obtain the defendant's HIV antibody status. 20 The question of how and when" -- and I'm quoting 21 -- "to test the alleged sex offender remains. 22 The Task Force considered and rejected waiting 23 until an accused is convicted. While a 6683 1 convicted defendant is no longer presumed 2 innocent and has fewer procedural rights there's 3 two problems with waiting for conviction." 4 Again I'm speaking for the 5 Governor's Task Force here; this is not Senator 6 Steve Saland. 7 "One, extensive delay is 8 inevitable because it can take weeks for 9 conviction by plea and months for conviction by 10 verdict; and two, there are a number of 11 acquittals and dismissals where the defendant 12 may have nevertheless infected the victim. In 13 either case, conviction is not an adequate 14 triggering event. For similar reasons, 15 indictment is not a good marker. Indictments 16 can be delayed, particularly where a defendant 17 is at liberty. Furthermore, a prosecutor may be 18 unable to obtain an indictment for reasons 19 unrelated to whether the accused -- the accused 20 is the true perpetrator." 21 This came to my attention -- the 22 whole issue came to my attention about four or 23 five years ago, Senator, when it was reported in 6684 1 New York City media and in one account by a 2 legal periodical, of assailants using their 3 refusal to take an HIV test as a means to obtain 4 a plea bargain. I found that to be grossly 5 unconscionable. 6 What this bill does, it says 7 there is a reasonable cause standard. Convic 8 tion is one of the standards. Reasonable cause 9 is another one of the standards. This can occur 10 pre-conviction. The federal government talks in 11 terms of conviction. The Governor's Task Force 12 and experience dictates that to wait for 13 conviction is to leave people who have been 14 victimized at risk. 15 Why should you have to undergo 16 the kind of extraordinarily inhumane, traumatic 17 indignities that one must as a victim of an act 18 of sexual offense, wait for that conviction 19 which may well take not months but in excess of 20 a year and perhaps more than a year, may take 21 years, quite literally, when this procedure only 22 in case of reasonable cause, only where there's 23 confidentiality ensured, only where there is 6685 1 this counseling assured for both victim and 2 assailant. 3 There's nothing unreasonable 4 about this bill. It's a victims' rights bill, 5 and I think, and I can't tell you what 37 other 6 states have done other than to be in compliance 7 with the federal law, and I would be certainly 8 surprised to find out that a goodly number of 9 those 37 states have not also adopted standards 10 that didn't require merely conviction. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, you 12 gave a very persuasive explanation of why your 13 bill will include people who have not been 14 convicted, but I think in that answer you also 15 conceded the question or the point that I made 16 to a question, which is that federal law does 17 not require the testing of people who are 18 charged with a sexual crime but who have not 19 been convicted, and I -- I think - 20 SENATOR SALAND: And I think I 21 addressed that, and I think I acknowledged that 22 my understanding of the federal law, which has 23 been out there by the way for four years, 6686 1 Senator Leichter -- this is not a surprise. The 2 enabling legislation that gave the "drop dead" 3 date of September 30 of this year was on the 4 federal books some four years ago. Everybody 5 has known this is coming. You may recall when 6 the Governor gave us his budget this January, in 7 his Article VII bills, he had a bill for HIV 8 testing. 9 Within 24 hours, a statement was 10 issued by his press officer that it was in there 11 by mistake. I beg to differ. It wasn't a 12 mistake. It was a $2.2 million item that was 13 intended to be in the budget, was there where it 14 belonged, and then for reasons that are rather 15 easy to surmise, namely, the kinds of pressure 16 that some people can bring in response to HIV 17 related issues, he backed off. 18 It's a victims' rights bill, pure 19 and simple and, if the federal standard is 20 conviction, then where the hell has the bill 21 been for four years we've known it's coming? 22 I've been laboring in the trenches for three of 23 those four years with this bill. Where is the 6687 1 Governor's response? Where is the program bill 2 that should have come out when he gave us his 3 budget, when he said it was in there by mistake? 4 You don't print mistakes like that. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I - 6 I understand you, but I -- I didn't know whether 7 you were finished. If you are, I'd like to just 8 make a couple comments on the bill. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Leichter, on the bill. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: I thank my 12 good friend, Senator Saland, who is articulate 13 and reasonable as always. 14 Let me just say that obviously 15 this is a very emotionally charged issue and not 16 only do we have enormous sympathy, each and 17 every one of us for crime victims, but 18 particularly when it's a crime as horrible as 19 rape, and it compounds the situation when 20 there's a possibility that somebody was not only 21 victimized by being raped, but might possibly 22 have contracted AIDS. 23 But I would hope that our strong 6688 1 sympathy and feelings for the victim does not 2 lead us into passing a bill which I think is 3 mistaken, doesn't help the victim, does not help 4 the victim, and I think raises some very serious 5 constitutional issues. And, Senator Saland, I 6 know there are times when we might like to say, 7 Well, the Constitution, it can't mean that, it 8 can't do that, it's wrong, but the wonderful 9 thing about the Constitution, and I know you 10 appreciate it and love it and respect it as I 11 do, is that it, by giving protection even to 12 people, horrible people, we really protect those 13 that we want to protect, which is the 14 overwhelming majority of people; and if there's 15 anything that is basic to our jurisprudence and 16 that sets us off from so many other countries, 17 is that we have this wonderful presumption of 18 innocence and until you're convicted, until 19 you're convicted, you're not subject to 20 governmental intrusion, which is perfectly 21 proper when somebody has been convicted; and 22 what this bill does and where I think it goes 23 too far, and Senator Saland has admitted that 6689 1 federal law does not require us to go as far as 2 he does, is to say that somebody who is just 3 charged with a crime can be tested for the AIDS 4 virus, and that, I just think, is wrong under 5 all circumstances, and even though he's got a 6 probable cause, probable cause is not the same 7 as being found guilty by a jury beyond a 8 reasonable doubt or confessing to the crime. 9 Now, the Governor's Task Force, 10 to which you refer, made certain arguments - 11 and I think they're legitimate arguments why 12 there'd be some advantage to testing prior to 13 conviction, the problem that if you have to wait 14 until there is a trial some time passes -- but 15 there is an answer and, frankly, it's the only 16 really effective answer for the victim, and that 17 is the victim has to be tested, because even if 18 you test the perpetrator or the alleged 19 perpetrator of the crime, and he or she should 20 test positive, you've got to test the victim, 21 because there obviously is no inevitability that 22 somebody who was -- who's HIV positive, 23 therefore, transmitted the virus, and really, 6690 1 the only safe thing to do for any victim is to 2 have the victim tested, and it's a terrible 3 thing to require that, and so on, but if that 4 concern exists, you're going to have to 5 inevitably test the victim, and that's why in my 6 belief that this bill can be postured as a 7 victims' rights bill, but it's really not the 8 answer to victims. You mislead victims if 9 they're going to rely solely and exclusively on 10 testing of the perpetrator of the sexual crime. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 12 Saland. 13 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President, 14 I'd like to take the liberty of calling Senator 15 Leichter's attention to Section 4 of the bill, 16 it's on page 3, and that section talks about 17 what the application for an order to compel a 18 person to undergo a HIV test shall require, and 19 if you look at subsection (d), I believe it 20 takes care of all of Senator Leichter's 21 concerns. 22 As I said earlier in my opening 23 remarks, this bill is intended to balance the 6691 1 need for confidentiality, the rights of 2 confidentiality of the accused, with the 3 interests of the victim to know, and if you read 4 subsection (d), what it says is that the 5 applicant, as part of his or her application, 6 shall state that they've received counseling by 7 a physician or a public health official, 8 understands the limitation of the information 9 obtained through the testing, goes on to list a 10 host of other things, and says "*** the need for 11 the applicant to undergo HIV-related testing to 12 definitively determine his or her HIV status." 13 Now, this is not a mere shot in 14 the dark. This is not something that's thrown 15 out to posture. This is something that we've 16 dealt with before. We even go so far as to 17 provide for compensation for the cost of the 18 testing and counseling for the victim under the 19 current victims' rights legislation that's in 20 the last section of this proposed bill. 21 I believe, Senator Leichter, in a 22 genuine good faith effort, we've tried to 23 balance the equity here. I don't believe that 6692 1 you could argue that this is so unique inasmuch 2 as there are state laws in this state and other 3 states that permit, for instance, the drawing of 4 blood in DWI cases, without the consent and 5 without the -- without the need for either an 6 indictment or a conviction. This is not 7 unique. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, let 9 me just say that - 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 11 Leichter. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: And maybe it's 13 that I didn't articulate my concerns that 14 clearly, but in no respect do the provisions 15 that you've referred me to, deal, overcome or 16 answer my objection. 17 My objection is a basic 18 constitutional objection that I don't think that 19 we have the right, nor do I think we should even 20 if we had the right, treat somebody who has not 21 been convicted of a crime as if he had been 22 convicted, and that is really my objection, and 23 the point that I made, Senator, is that the 6693 1 applicant, or the victim of the crime, the only 2 way that he or she can be sure that they have 3 not been infected is to be tested themselves 4 and, while your bill says, well, that they have 5 to receive counseling, and so on, we know that 6 counseling doesn't always lead to the right 7 action by individuals, and actually, in the - 8 insofar as you give people a sense of confidence 9 that somehow or other, by the testing of the 10 perpetrator or alleged perpetrator, that that's 11 going to answer the question of whether the 12 victim is HIV positive, that, of course, is not 13 the case. The only thing that you could find, I 14 assume, that if the perpetrator is not HIV 15 positive, then the victim will not be HIV 16 positive as a result of that particular 17 incident. But if the perpetrator does test HIV 18 positive, you've got to test the victim in any 19 event. There's no way that you can then start a 20 course of treatment as if the person was HIV 21 positive without knowing it. 22 So really, the only answer is to 23 test the victim, and that's really what all our 6694 1 aim and effort ought to seek to do is to 2 provide, well, you're going to have counseling 3 and so on, doesn't help the victim, and it 4 obviously doesn't overcome what I see as a 5 constitutional defect in your bill. 6 But I was interested, Senator, as 7 I leafed through the statements of opposition, a 8 memorandum of opposition from Victims' Services, 9 Victims' Services, says this bill is not in the 10 interests of the victims. 11 SENATOR SALAND: Excuse me, 12 Senator Leichter. Would you yield? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 14 Leichter, would you yield? 15 SENATOR SALAND: I can only - 16 let me do this in the form of a question. I can 17 assume that -- am I correct in assuming you've 18 read the bill? 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: I've read the 20 bill. 21 SENATOR SALAND: You've read the 22 bill. And notwithstanding the language so lines 23 30 through 32 of the bill which talks in terms 6695 1 of, again, the need for the applicant to undergo 2 HIV-related testing to definitively determine 3 his or her HIV status, you still maintain that 4 that's not an a component of this legislation, 5 and I can only assume that Victims' Services has 6 read the bill, if they've read it at all, as 7 closely as some of the people who have advised 8 you have read the bill, because it's clear, I 9 mean, we're apparently talking at each other and 10 not talking to each other, but it's certainly as 11 part and parcel of any application, you must 12 have undergone that entire program and you must 13 have been advised and you must acknowledge the 14 importance that you must be tested yourself. Of 15 course, I know that. Of course, you know that. 16 But that's not what this is about, and that's 17 smoke screen, and I dare say that those folks 18 much like the same folks that you and I deal 19 with all the time, if ten percent of them read 20 the bill or -- it's probably amazing. 21 What they probably did is they 22 responded to a phone call and they said, Get out 23 a memo in opposition, and there's the memo 6696 1 because, if they read the bill, it's addressed 2 right in the bill. The constitutional argument, 3 this is as unconstitutional as taking blood from 4 somebody involved in a DWI, before that person 5 has gotten hours away from the scene of the 6 accident. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, yes. 8 Senator, let me just - 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 10 Leichter. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Let me just 12 say, in some ways I wish we were addressing 13 Judge Saland, because I think you'd make a 14 wonderful judge, not that I'm urging in any 15 respect that you leave this body. But, Senator, 16 it's so clear to you, well, the Association of 17 the Bar of the city of New York, one of the most 18 prestigious bar groups, and I think that gives 19 very careful attention and reads your -- all the 20 bills that they comment so, certainly read your 21 bill, says, Involuntary HIV testing of suspects 22 is unconstitutional. This is the Association of 23 the Bar of the city of New York. It's not the 6697 1 final word, because you and I know the final 2 word is the Supreme Court, and that sometimes 3 changes depending who's sitting on the court and 4 the nature of the argument, and so on, and 5 you're not as foolish, and I'm not as foolish as 6 to say definitively absolutely this is 7 unconstitutional, absolutely constitutional, but 8 I just want to say some very good legal minds 9 who have been -- who have a record of being 10 extremely careful and thoughtful, have said this 11 is unconstitutional, and to say that the 12 Victims' Services, well, they couldn't have read 13 the bill and so on, they start off and they say, 14 Victims' Services has grappled with a 15 complicated and difficult issue of mandatory HIV 16 testing of rapists for several years. 17 They've thought about it. 18 They've looked at your bill. They've considered 19 it. They've read these provisions, and they've 20 come to the same conclusions, frankly, that I 21 did, that your provisions are not in the 22 interest of victims. They're not required by 23 federal law. You don't help us deal with 6698 1 federal law by putting forward a bill that has a 2 real serious question as to its 3 constitutionality. 4 What happens if we pass your 5 bill, Senator Saland, and, as the Association of 6 the Bar believes, the bill will be declared 7 unconstitutional? Then we're in violation of 8 the federal law. There's an easy way to comply 9 with the federal law, and I would certainly 10 support that bill if somebody is convicted, 11 convicted of a sexual act which could 12 conceivably transmit the AIDS virus, require 13 testing. Even then, I don't think it does that 14 much for the victim, because you really ought to 15 counsel the victim to be tested. But if you 16 pass that sort of bill, no question it's 17 constitutional; no question it complies with the 18 federal law. 19 You, for some reason, had to 20 reach for more, and I think in reaching for 21 more, you have jeopardized the state's position 22 on the federal law, because I think you've put 23 forward a bill that is constitutionally 6699 1 defective and a bill, frankly, that does not do 2 for victims what you would like to do for 3 victims. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 6 Gold. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, 8 would Senator Saland yield to one short 9 question? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 11 Saland, would you yield? 12 SENATOR SALAND: Surely, Senator 13 Gold. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, he 15 will. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I 17 understand that the federal law also requires 18 referral for appropriate health care and support 19 services. Now, does your bill do that? 20 SENATOR SALAND: Our bill 21 provides as part and parcel of the application 22 process, that those victims would have counsel 23 ed for all of the HIV-related support services 6700 1 and as part of the application you have to 2 allege that you've received that counseling. 3 That's tantamount to the referral. We also 4 provide in the last section for certain of those 5 expenses associated to be covered through the 6 Victims' Compensation Board. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, on 8 the bill. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 10 bill, Senator Gold. 11 SENATOR GOLD: My very 12 distinguished colleague, Senator Leichter, hit 13 an awful lot of the points, but I'd just like to 14 make a few comments. 15 First of all, when we get 16 elected, there's nothing in the process which 17 claims that we are supposed to know it all and 18 we don't know it all, and we rely an awful lot 19 on the opinions of people in various fields. 20 So, for example, we've had 21 legislation today dealing with dental hygien 22 ists, and we get opinions from dental 23 assistants, dental hygienists, and these people 6701 1 have input. There was a bill earlier today 2 dealing with insurance and malpractice, and we 3 get input. 4 This is a bill where there is 5 input. Now, the Association of the Bar of the 6 city of New York is opposed and Senator Leichter 7 gave most of their argument. You could say, 8 well, there are some lawyers that may not 9 agree. There's also opposition, however, from a 10 group called the New York State Coalition 11 Against Sexual Assault. Now, this is a group 12 that is concerned about victims. This is a 13 victims' group, and their memo explains why the 14 proposed legislation is not good for survivors. 15 Now, the survivors, as I 16 understand it, Senator Saland, are also people 17 who we call victims. In other words, the bill 18 isn't good for victims. Now, I understand, 19 Senator Saland, that the victims are the people 20 who you are most concerned with. There's no 21 doubt in my mind. Certainly, in treating -- in 22 requiring the testing to be done, the memo that 23 you provided says you're doing it because you 6702 1 want to help the victim. 2 Well, this organization which 3 represents victims, says that the bill is not 4 good for victims. So I don't know why we're 5 doin' it. 6 Now, you said to Senator Leichter 7 that we already have in the law testing, blood 8 testing, in drunk driving cases. Well, Senator 9 Saland, as everyone here knows, if someone is 10 going to be charged with drunk driving, that 11 involves a certain amount of alcohol in their 12 blood and, therefore, that test is directly 13 relevant to evidence that would be submitted at 14 a trial. 15 If someone commits a sexual 16 assault upon someone else, that sexual assault 17 is as disgusting, as illegal if the person has 18 HIV or doesn't. The HIV issue is not part of 19 the evidence that goes with the trial. So 20 there's really two completely different 21 rationales for doing the testing. 22 The blood alcohol issue is -- is 23 one which is involved with the evidence of the 6703 1 prosecution of that case. In this situation, 2 Senator, you're making an invasion which doesn't 3 say that there was or was not a sexual assault, 4 but only tries to determine the presence of 5 HIV. 6 I'm not going to repeat all that 7 Senator Leichter said, because he just did it 8 too well. The fact is that you are not helping 9 the victim. The only real help that a victim 10 can get is for that victim to have testing of 11 their own. The testing of the perpetrator - 12 and it's not even the perpetrator, the accused 13 perpetrator -- may or may not be accurate. It 14 may or may not tell the story, but the basic - 15 the basic part of the information I have against 16 me is when the victims' rights organizations 17 say, Don't pass it. It doesn't help victims. 18 You know, there's another bill 19 which we're going to get to dealing with whether 20 or not there should be plea bargaining in rape 21 cases and that's another one you say, Oh, my 22 God, plea bargaining. You don't want to let 23 these bums get away with it, and I asked the 6704 1 question in the Rules Committee, is there a 2 memorandum supporting this bill by the district 3 attorney, and the answer is no. I was told no, 4 anyway, and I could understand why: Because 5 while it sounds terrific for lay people to talk 6 about that, there are a lot of DAs out there who 7 believe they have people in jail who committed 8 rape, who they could not have convicted of rape 9 first, and they were able to plea bargain and 10 get that bum off the street for a period of 11 time. So while it says it's terrific to end it 12 and it sounds politically good, those in the 13 field are not telling us to do it. 14 Senator Saland, I believe that 15 Senator Leichter pointed out that we already 16 have a law that carries us as far as we ought to 17 be able to go. You have been asked by 18 memorandum by victims' groups not to pass this. 19 If you don't want to listen to us, I urge you to 20 listen to the groups that are organized on 21 behalf of the victims and not pass the 22 legislation. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 6705 1 Dollinger, then Senator Connor. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 3 President, will Senator Saland yield to a 4 question? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 6 Saland, would you yield to a question from 7 Senator Dollinger? 8 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 9 President. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I share a 11 number of the concerns of my colleagues, and I'm 12 still wrestling with how to vote on this bill, 13 but my question is, who is going to represent 14 the victim in this civil court proceeding to 15 require that the test occur, and how will they 16 be able to pay for the cost of that proceeding, 17 wherever it goes? 18 SENATOR SALAND: Well, let me 19 help you with your -- with your grappling if I 20 can, because I -- I just want to come back and 21 touch a couple of things that you may be 22 troubled by - 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yeah. 6706 1 SENATOR SALAND: -- that perhaps 2 you're being needlessly troubled, and then I'll 3 try, in part, to answer your question. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Please 5 do. 6 SENATOR SALAND: I don't believe 7 you were in the chamber when I read from the 8 Governor's Task Force on Rape and Sexual 9 Assault. Were you present at that time? 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I was there. 11 I was present. 12 SENATOR SALAND: You were? 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. 14 SENATOR SALAND: O.K. That 15 recommendation really exceeded my recommendation 16 as contained in this language. That 17 recommendation talked about a civil procedure 18 which would occur even before indictment. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right. 20 SENATOR SALAND: The triggering 21 in mine, the earlier stage triggering is a 22 indictment. 23 Now, the 20 or 30 people who were 6707 1 involved in that process were people who, and I 2 certainly would be happy to share with you the 3 names, there was a list of some people who I 4 recognized as being luminaries of sorts, they 5 were troubled as I am troubled. I'm not quite 6 sure if they have were troubled by some of the 7 things such as the attempt to use the refusal to 8 take a test as a means for plea bargaining to a 9 lesser degree of a crime. 10 I find that very troublesome, and 11 I'm sure we all do. Perhaps I'm more troubled 12 by it than others and maybe my reaction to it is 13 not the same reaction as others might have, but 14 the constitutional questions which may be 15 troubling you - 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Actually, I 17 can put you at rest. The constitutional issues 18 don't trouble me as much as they trouble Senator 19 Leichter. I understand his position. I also 20 believe that this is a somewhat clouded issue of 21 constitutional judgment and, from my point of 22 view, in a clouded area the Legislature is sort 23 of free to tiptoe as close to the constitutional 6708 1 line as it chooses. If we step over the line, 2 the courts have the ability to tell us we 3 haven't done that, and I agree with Senator 4 Leichter that the controlling precedent in the 5 Supreme Court may suggest that this steps over 6 the line, I don't know, but I don't think that 7 we should necessarily pre-judge as a legislative 8 body the question of whether we violated the 9 Constitution. If we step way over the line, and 10 we're all -- it seems clear that the 11 Constitution has been violated, then as a 12 Legislature, I think we might want to step back, 13 but if it's a somewhat gray area as this area I 14 think is - 15 SENATOR SALAND: Let me - 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- I'm 17 willing to let the Legislature tiptoe around 18 that line. 19 SENATOR SALAND: And I appreciate 20 that. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 22 Saland. 23 SENATOR SALAND: I very much 6709 1 appreciate that, Senator, and let me just leave 2 that particular point by just coming back to, 3 again, what's in this bill as distinguished from 4 characterizations offered that don't necessarily 5 reflect the content of the bill, and I know how 6 carefully you are given to reading bills, and 7 I'm sure you're aware of this. 8 What this bill says is, there is 9 complete confidentiality as to the assailant. 10 There is no proceeding, civil or criminal, in 11 which whatever is done by way of that testing 12 can that information be admitted. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right. 14 SENATOR SALAND: So I would think 15 that, under those circumstances -- and again, 16 let's not -- I will not try to be a member of 17 that other branch, the judiciary, but I would 18 think to the extent that there were some 19 constitutional concerns, that that right of 20 confidentiality is adequate to avoid that 21 question, and I think it's been substantially 22 ignored in all the commentary and in the memos. 23 Now, with regard to the 6710 1 application, the application would be brought 2 on, whether the requirements are such that it 3 could be brought on pro se would probably be too 4 difficult. I would assume that the application 5 would be made through counsel. Whether it would 6 be made through some type of -- of organized 7 group such as, you know, a Legal Aid or public 8 service type of thing, I don't know. I would 9 assume that there could be some costs associated 10 with it. 11 As we negotiate this bill, there 12 -- as of yesterday, there were still 13 negotiations going on. That certainly is a 14 valid consideration and one which we would try 15 to incorporate. Whether we could accomplish, 16 much as we have surcharges imposed in certain 17 situations, the ability to surcharge where, in 18 fact, there is subsequently a conviction or as 19 part of a plea bargain that certainly could be 20 accomplished as well, but going back to some of 21 the arguments that were raised in opposition 22 here, to the extent that an individual, a woman 23 or a man, because obviously there are reports of 6711 1 men and children who have been violated as well, 2 seek that information, that would certainly be a 3 factor for them to -- to consider. 4 I, for one, you know, would think 5 it would be certainly something very 6 appropriately within their realm and if, for 7 some reason or other, that financial burden 8 absent some ability to access free legal 9 services or pro bono legal services can't be 10 accomplished, then it should appropriately be a 11 subject of negotiation. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 13 President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 15 Dollinger. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the bill. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 18 bill. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I addressed 20 this issue in the Health Committee about these 21 instances in which we create rights on the part 22 of people who are either victims in the criminal 23 justice process or other parts of the - 6712 1 wherever else they are in the system, we give 2 them certain legal rights through the creation 3 of a statute like this. 4 We allow them -- if this bill 5 passes and becomes law, we allow them to require 6 that this defendant give a sample, blood sample, 7 to be tested for HIV. But what I understand, 8 and this is where I -- I caution Senator Saland, 9 I caution all of us that the -- it's not a self 10 effectuating process. The mere filing fee to 11 bring an action in Supreme Court to cover the 12 cost is $275 in this state. The cost in legal 13 fees to meet all of those requirements, to 14 prepare the affidavits to show, as your bill 15 outlines in Section 4 on page 3, which contains 16 many detailed evidentiary issues about has the 17 victim received HIV counseling, have they 18 received a HIV test, have they taken all the 19 steps that are described here, this is not an 20 easy petition to prepare for the court. 21 I think it could be enormously 22 expensive, and I think that the -- the pro bono 23 agencies, who already are overrun with, frankly, 6713 1 all kinds of pro bono needs in our increasingly 2 costly criminal justice system, will find this 3 extremely difficult to do this in an efficient 4 and easy or relatively inexpensive fashion. 5 I also think that the other 6 question that comes up is who represents the 7 alleged defendant? Who raises the issue that 8 there is no reasonable cause? Who defends him, 9 the public defender who is representing him in 10 the criminal process, or would he have to secure 11 private counsel for this action which will be 12 brought in Supreme Court while there's a 13 criminal complaint pending in the County Court? 14 If there is no defense for the 15 alleged perpetrator in this disclosure of an HIV 16 test, then I think you may run into one of the 17 issues that Senator Leichter raised, which is 18 the issue of effective assistance of counsel 19 since this could have some effect on the 20 criminal proceeding. That is the disclosure 21 voluntarily or the disclosure by court order of 22 the HIV test, and the results. So I think by 23 using a civil justice system to achieve this 6714 1 goal, you create a dilemma for the victim who is 2 going to go to a lawyer and say, How much will 3 it cost to find out whether I've been exposed, 4 and the answer from a private counsel will be 5 $2500 or more. If it's appealed, it's going to 6 cost you more. 7 Who's going to represent the 8 defendant? Well, the defendant may not have 9 representation in the civil action, and then I 10 think you may run into a constitutional problem 11 in the question of whether the civil court 12 action, if the compulsion to produce evidence, 13 whether that affects the criminal action, and 14 the consequence of all this, Senator, is that 15 the cost -- the legal costs in this whole thing 16 could explode. 17 What does that mean for the 18 victim? If your concern is for the victim, as I 19 understand everyone else's concern is for the 20 victim, I think of the victim is going to have a 21 huge disincentive to use this system because 22 it's going to be so costly for them to use it 23 and I think that the promise that this bill 6715 1 might hold for Senator Saland, as you've 2 articulated, for those who are victims, my fear 3 is that without a way to fund, without a way to 4 provide the dollars to make this a reality, this 5 will remain a piece of paper with a promise, but 6 for many of the poor people of this state, they 7 will never get an opportunity to realize the 8 benefit of it unless we over-strain our already 9 substantially over-strained pro bono services 10 for lawyers. 11 I think there's some promise in 12 this bill. I agree there's some potential 13 constitutional difficulties. I think of, as we 14 walk that fine line as a legislative body 15 exercising our legislative power, I'm willing to 16 do it even though there maybe some 17 constitutional questions. 18 But the real question is, as a 19 practical matter, does it work? Is there money 20 to make it work for victims? And I don't see it 21 at this stage. I have -- again I haven't 22 figured out how to vote yet, but I -- I see a 23 promise that this bill holds, but I don't see 6716 1 that we're going to have a civil justice system 2 that will make it work. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 4 Connor. 5 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. 7 Let me just add one note to 8 follow up, because I -- I certainly agree with 9 some of the things Senator Dollinger said, but 10 you know, Mr. President, Senator Saland said, 11 well, maybe the victim could get Legal Aid or 12 some organization like that. I mean I have to 13 say, by and large, there will be a conflict of 14 interest, because I would expect in a lot of 15 cases the alleged perpetrator is represented by 16 the Legal Aid Society or pro bono counsel, and 17 they obviously can't represent the victim 18 against their own clients in any other capacity. 19 So the concern that Senator Dollinger raises 20 about the expense, the -- for the victim and the 21 access to this procedure is a very, very real 22 one, and we can't just shrug and say, Well, 23 Legal Aid may represent them. Legal Aid 6717 1 represents defendants usually, not victims. 2 The -- so once again, this bill 3 has the potential or one similar to it, of 4 providing rights to victims of these kinds of 5 assaults only if they can afford to pay for it, 6 and I'm sure the statistics show why we have a 7 pro bono 18-B counsel program or Legal Aid 8 Society, that while perhaps a disproportionate 9 number of those accused of crimes may be poor, I 10 think the statistics also show that a dis 11 proportionate number of the victims of crimes in 12 all categories are poor people, be they men or 13 women. 14 But aside from that, my 15 observation about this bill -- and let me just 16 say I have had a great concern since I first 17 became aware of the existence of AIDS and the 18 concept of someone being HIV positive after they 19 came up with the testing and the whole approach 20 of government, on a federal as well as a state 21 level, to this health crisis. 22 My concern was that, for a 23 variety of reasons, our whole approach to this 6718 1 public health problem has been politically 2 driven, and I have spoken to physicians who have 3 said that to me, Senator, we're years into it 4 now, but so much of the approach to dealing with 5 this problem, which is a public health problem, 6 has been politically driven, and I say that on 7 both sides of it. 8 I think generally the public 9 consciousness, certainly the federal government 10 was very slow to recognize the real threat to 11 all of our people posed by this health epidemic 12 in the beginning, perhaps because it was viewed 13 as a rare disease that seemed to exist in 14 certain limited communities in our society. 15 There was a political viewpoint that, well, it 16 doesn't threaten society-at-large. We now know 17 as a matter of fact, rather than political view, 18 that that was simply erroneous. 19 AIDS, the HIV virus, is a threat 20 to all of us, all of our families, rich, poor, 21 and in between; black, white, Puerto Rican and 22 Hispanic, Asian; women, men, young, old, it's 23 there, and I have to confess that some perhaps 6719 1 on the other side of the coin, some of the 2 initial response to how to deal with this public 3 health crisis -- and I suppose I say mea culpa 4 for this -- was also politically driven by a 5 concern, maybe in some cases an over-concern for 6 some of the groups that felt most threatened by 7 it and most neglected by government's lack of an 8 initial response. 9 So there became a "politically 10 correct way" -- and I use that in quotes, 11 politically correct way to deal with this health 12 crisis. But we are now years down the road. I 13 am open to anything that makes sense from a 14 public health standpoint, from a practical 15 standpoint, and certainly in the area with which 16 this bill deals certainly from a standpoint of 17 benefiting and assuring victims that they will 18 be able to do all they can to protect their 19 health after the fact of an attack like this. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 21 the last section. 22 SENATOR CONNOR: One second, Mr. 23 President. 6720 1 I first read this bill thinking, 2 well, I want to protect the victims here, absol 3 utely want to protect the victims. I don't want 4 to get caught up in any larger issues like, is 5 this really backing off from confidential AIDS 6 testing? Is this really backing off from a 7 policy judgment we made about voluntary testing 8 versus involuntary testing at large? 9 I don't care what the politically 10 correct view is; if this is good for victims, 11 I'm for it. My first reaction, Senator. 12 But I've read the bill. I have 13 read the bill. I've read the memos. One of the 14 first ones in was the Civil Liberties Union. I 15 think I have pretty good standing there at least 16 from my -- the way I look at it with the Civil 17 Liberties Union in terms of my record. But I 18 looked at it. At first glance, my first 19 reaction was I'm not so sure about this 20 constitutional point. As Senator Dollinger 21 said, it's not clear cut, way over the line. 22 I'm not -- I'm not putting down 23 -- I'm not playing law professor/Supreme Court 6721 1 judge where victims are concerned. Let the 2 courts worry about it. So despite my great 3 personal affection for the Civil Liberties 4 Union, given their standpoint, and I respect 5 them for having a viewpoint on every issue that 6 they take a stand on; so I'm not so concerned 7 about their view of it. I'm not concerned about 8 the politically correct view of it. 9 But then I read on, and I read 10 what victims' organizations say, and I realized 11 that this bill holds out false promises for the 12 most vulnerable victims possible, a false 13 promise. It raises false concerns. It perhaps 14 could falsely reassure a victim. There is only 15 one course for the victim of a sexual assault 16 where the victim has been exposed to bodily 17 fluids, and that is to follow the protocol of 18 the victim being tested periodically for an HIV 19 reaction, periodically over a long period of 20 time, since the insidious nature of this 21 infection and disease is that it does have a 22 long time before -- at least six months before 23 antibodies are present and can be measured and, 6722 1 of course, as we know can have many, many, many 2 years before the victim is actually -- becomes 3 actually a person characterized as having the 4 disease of AIDS, and to rely on a test of the 5 alleged perpetrator, not even convicted in some 6 cases, but I have to say as we all point out, 7 our system is fallible, if I were a victim, I 8 wouldn't take any great assurances that the guy 9 who got convicted and is sitting in jail is 10 testing clear two years later. I would want to 11 worry about my own health status, and this 12 answers -- this doesn't answer the problem, and 13 that's why victims' groups have opposed it. 14 So I just want to make it clear, 15 Mr. President. I don't care what the 16 politically correct response to any kind of HIV 17 testing or not testing issue is, and there are 18 others around this Capitol. I care, though, 19 here about, are we really helping the victims? 20 And the victims say no. So I must say no to 21 this bill. 22 Come back with a better bill. 23 Come back with something that does reassure the 6723 1 victims, that the people who are most involved 2 with the victims say this will be helpful, this 3 will not mislead, this will protect victims' 4 health, and I'll support it and I won't worry so 5 much about the fine lines of constitutionality, 6 because we are dealing with a health crisis and 7 we're dealing with victims' rights here and this 8 is very important to me. 9 But this bill, I must say no. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 11 the last section. 12 SENATOR SALAND: If I may briefly 13 just close debate, Mr. President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Close 15 debate, Senator Saland. 16 SENATOR SALAND: Perhaps it was 17 unfortunate that the concerns that were address 18 ed by my colleagues, I should have addressed 19 earlier and maybe I should have provided them 20 with the statements of the victims' 21 organizations and the victims and survivors at a 22 press conference that was conducted by myself 23 and Assemblyman Kaufman earlier this month. 6724 1 There were at least, I believe, 2 three survivors who spoke, two of whom were 3 survivors of rape, one of whom was the -- the 4 sister of a woman who had been raped and 5 murdered as had her brother-in-law, her sister's 6 husband, or perhaps it was her boyfriend. 7 Justice For All, an advocacy 8 group, was one of the groups that was there very 9 much in support of this legislation, and there 10 were perhaps others and perhaps we should have 11 asked them to have left memos. So let me assure 12 you that, at the very least, there may be a 13 divergence among victims' rights organizations. 14 I do believe that any reading on 15 this bill will tell you that no -- this is not a 16 panacea, nor it intended to be a panacea and 17 some who might somehow or other portray that to 18 be my intent are either misreading my intent or 19 attempting to do me an injustice. This is an 20 attempt to - 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 22 Mendez, why do you rise? 23 SENATOR MENDEZ: To ask if 6725 1 Senator - 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: He's 3 closing debate. 4 SENATOR MENDEZ: I know, but I 5 was wondering if he would just yield for a 6 couple of questions. I know you're closing, Mr. 7 Saland -- Senator Saland. 8 SENATOR SALAND: Certainly, 9 Senator. 10 SENATOR MENDEZ: In your 11 presentation earlier, you had mentioned that at 12 this point in time there are many accused 13 rapists that they are using their denial of 14 being tested for AIDS as a tool for plea 15 bargaining. Are you sure that is happening? 16 SENATOR SALAND: I'm aware of at 17 least two reported incidents, one reported in 18 one of your New York City newspapers, the other 19 in a legal periodical. One, I believe, involved 20 a young woman at Columbia University. I don't 21 recall who the other victim was. 22 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you. 23 Thank you. 6726 1 Mr. President, just two seconds, 2 on the bill. I rise in support of this bill. I 3 think that. For too long, much too long the 4 crime of rape has been continuously used in plea 5 bargaining where this crime signals to take a 6 lesser sentence and rape has not been dealt with 7 for too long, as already -- as a horrendous 8 crime. 9 I think that the bill that 10 Senator Saland is presenting for us to consider 11 for a vote is a very well balanced bill, and I 12 think also it is a victims' bill. Why? Because 13 a woman that suffers the traumatic experience of 14 rape, on top of that for that woman to be 15 wondering whether or not that horrendous human 16 being is infected with AIDS, that in itself, 17 just the effect itself, will reduce the level of 18 anxiety that that poor woman or child will be 19 having for a long while. 20 So, given the reality of the 21 circumstances, I think that this bill represents 22 the best that we can do for women and children 23 that are raped so very often and so very 6727 1 violently by so many -- by so many horrible 2 criminals. 3 Thank you, Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 5 Saland. 6 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 7 President. 8 As I started to say, I would be 9 less than honest if somehow or other I said this 10 was going to fix an entire -- in its entirety 11 either the problem of violence that occurs by 12 way of violent sexual acts upon victims and 13 survivors or that in and of itself this is going 14 to remedy the problem of those who are 15 apprehensive and concerned as to whether or not 16 they've been HIV infected. 17 The reality is that this is but 18 one incremental step in trying to really level 19 that playing field. As I said earlier, it's a 20 carefully crafted bill. If you look at the 21 application requirements, it certainly makes it 22 clear that there are a host of things that 23 somebody who's endured the agony of rape or a 6728 1 sexual crime has to be made aware of before she 2 and sometimes he or that child can go forward in 3 this process. 4 What this bill would do would be 5 to say that whereas now there is absolutely no 6 body who has the ability to get that 7 information, this bill would say there will be a 8 mechanism that will exist in New York to permit 9 that to happen. 10 Again, this is nothing more than 11 an effort to deal with rights of victims. This 12 is not an effort to stigmatize any segment of 13 the population. This is not an effort to become 14 embroiled in the HIV controversy. This is an 15 effort to give victims a tool which they can use 16 in their moments of agony if they so choose, if 17 they've been counselled, if in fact they've done 18 everything that would reasonably be expected of 19 them. This is a tool. 20 Lastly, this doesn't even go as 21 far as the Governor's Task Force recommended 22 four years ago. The Governor's Task Force would 23 have said even pre-indictment. We don't do that 6729 1 with this bill. Also what we -- what we would 2 be doing is preserving a funding stream that 3 we're going to lose once we leave this place as 4 a regular session concludes and aren't back 5 before September 30th. 6 Thank you, Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 8 the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 10 act shall take effect on the first day of 11 November next succeeding the date on which it 12 shall have become a law. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 15 the roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, Mr. 18 President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 20 Gold to explain his vote. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I 22 listened very carefully to the debate, and I 23 listened very carefully to my colleague, Senator 6730 1 Mendez, whom I respect greatly, but Mr. 2 President, we -- we -- if we want to help 3 people, and I think Senator Connor pointed it 4 out, we want to help people, we have to stop 5 politicizing everything and, if we hear a bill 6 that mentions the word "rape," it doesn't mean 7 that the bill does anything. All it does is 8 mention the word "rape." 9 Now, Senator Saland said that two 10 or three victims were at a press conference. 11 Well, you say divergence of opinion, Senator 12 Saland. All I know is from what I have. What I 13 have in front of me is a memo. It's -- it 14 exists. New York State Coalition Against Sexual 15 Assault, and they say the bill is wrong. 16 There's also the board of directors of the New 17 York City Victims' Services Agency that voted 18 not to support this kind of legislation. 19 Now, these organizations don't 20 disagree with Senator Mendez when she says that 21 rape is a horrendous crime, and I want to tell 22 you something. I invite anybody here to spend a 23 day, a half a day, an hour with any assistant 6731 1 district attorney who deals with rape every day 2 in the courts and you tell me these aren't 3 sensitive people. They're fabulous people. A 4 lot of them happen to be women, some are men, 5 but they deal every day with the real victim, 6 preparing the cases for trial, dealing with 7 these trials. These people don't take rape as a 8 simple thing. 9 When you hear about plea 10 bargaining of cases, it isn't because the people 11 handling these cases have no internal sense of 12 what is right or wrong. It means that they are 13 in the fields every day doing the damned best 14 they can to make society safe and put rapists 15 behind bars. This bill doesn't put a rapist 16 behind bars. 17 Senator Leichter said it and you 18 can argue for an hour and a half, for 40 days, 19 it's not going to change it. The law today 20 already requires that, if you have a convicted 21 rapist, they will be tested. This talks about 22 something different. It talks about a pre-trial 23 stage. It talks about accusation, and it goes 6732 1 too far. 2 Having said that, if I thought it 3 would help, I could even say it goes too far, 4 but how can you turn your back? But it isn't 5 going to help. Those people convicted of rape 6 will be tested. 7 I vote no. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 9 Gold in the negative. Continue the roll. 10 Senator Dollinger to explain his 11 vote. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 13 President, I find that this bill has some good 14 things about it. I guess it's about like many 15 things that we do, never has all the good and 16 sometimes it has some part of the bad. I -- I 17 think, in view of the complaints made by victims 18 with respect to whether or not this will work 19 and my concern about whether or not it's going 20 to be affordable to people who are victims who 21 need this protection, I'm going to vote in the 22 negative. 23 I would hope that, if we look at 6733 1 this issue again, we'd look at a couple of 2 things, one waiving the civil court filing fee; 3 two, allowing the district attorney to represent 4 the victim -- the victim. The district 5 attorneys' see assistance program, which they 6 have an extensive one in Monroe County, could 7 represent the victim so that the victim doesn't 8 have to pay the cost; extending the law so that 9 the public defender can represent the civil 10 defendant, the criminal defendant, and test the 11 constitutionality of these issues, test the 12 reasonable cause and provide the mechanism 13 inside the civil court justice system to make 14 this thing work. 15 As I said, I'm not afraid of the 16 constitutionality. I think if this is 17 unconstitutional, the courts can tell us that, 18 but I see this as a proposal that moves in a 19 specific direction, but doesn't have the real 20 teeth of financing and a way to make this happen 21 so that individual victims will be able to 22 realize the promise that this statute offers. 23 I'll vote in the negative, Mr. 6734 1 President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 3 Dollinger in the negative. 4 Results. 5 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 6 the negative on Calendar Number 1440 are 7 Senators Babbush, Connor, Dollinger, Galiber, 8 Gold, Leichter, Markowitz, and Ohrenstein. Ayes 9 47, nays 8. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 11 bill is passed. 12 Senator Daly. 13 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, may 14 I be voted in the negative on Calendar Number 15 1323. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 1323, 17 Senator Daly will be in the negative. 18 SENATOR DALY: 8641. I may add, 19 if I had not been tied up when that bill was 20 called, it would have much more debated. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Also 22 8641. Is that the same bill? That's the Senate 23 Print, Calendar 1321. 6735 1 SENATOR DALY: No, 1323. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 1323. 3 Senator Connor. 4 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 5 President. 6 I also was not here or there 7 would have more debate, and I'd like to have 8 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative 9 on Calendar Number 1323. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 1323, 11 Senator Connor -- Senator Connor will be in the 12 negative. 13 Senator Smith. 14 SENATOR SMITH: Mr. President, I 15 too request unanimous consent to be recorded in 16 the negative on Calendar Number 1323. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 18 objection. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 21 Gold. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, Senator 23 Ohrenstein also asks unanimous consent to be 6736 1 recorded in the negative on 1323. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 3 objection. 4 SENATOR JONES: I would ask 5 unanimous consent on 1323. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 7 Jones, without objection; Senator Onorato, 8 without objection. 9 Senator Dollinger. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Same, Mr. 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 13 Dollinger; Senator Oppenheimer. 14 Senator Montgomery. 15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Mr. 16 President, I would like to have unanimous 17 consent to be in the negative on Calendar 1323. 18 SENATOR PADAVAN: No objection. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: No 20 objection, Senator Montgomery is in the negative 21 on Calendar Number 1323. 22 Regular order, Senator Padavan? 23 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President, 6737 1 could we go back to Calendar 293, please. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 293, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill 184A, an act 4 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 5 SENATOR LEVY: Senator Gold, I 6 understand someone on your side of the aisle 7 thought that this bill dealt with speedy trials 8 and DWI. That provision is amended out of this 9 bill. This is a bill that deals exclusively 10 with drinking and driving for young people under 11 the age of 21. 12 As you will recall, three weeks 13 or so ago, we passed a much tougher bill from 14 the standpoint of criminalization for those who 15 drink and drive and are under 21. This is a 16 less restrictive bill in the sense -- and let me 17 just say that those young people under 21 who 18 are drinking and driving continue to be a major 19 problem in our state when they are intoxicated 20 or impaired. 21 The sad fact and tragic fact is 22 that innocent victims who are using New York 23 State's highways and New York State's roads are 6738 1 being killed by the drunk, the impaired and less 2 than impaired alcohol operation of motor 3 vehicles, so much so that in the last year that 4 we have facts -- 1992 -- 61 people were killed 5 on our state highways by persons under 21 who 6 were drunk or impaired. That's a cornerstone of 7 the problem. 8 So what this bill does is to put 9 New York State, if it were to pass the Assembly 10 and be enacted into law with 27 other states in 11 our nation who have lowered the BAC for those 12 under 21, 27 states plus the District of 13 Columbia. 14 Let me tell you that in New 15 Jersey they have a .01 standard. In 16 Massachusetts, Vermont and Maine, neighboring 17 states obviously with the exception of Maine, 18 they have .02 to help better deal with this 19 problem. California has .01, and statistical 20 analysis of the impact of the change of a lower 21 BAC on the problem tells us that deaths on that 22 state's highways and roads are reduced by at 23 least 1/3 when the state moved to a lower BAC. 6739 1 Now, what this bill does 2 different among many other parts that are 3 different from the bill that we passed, instead 4 of making .02, .03 and .04 DWI as we did under 5 the other bill, we deal with .02, .03, .04 6 slowly and exclusively civily and from an 7 administrative license suspension standpoint. 8 .05, .06 and .07 continues a power in police 9 officers and district attorneys to use either 10 the DWAI statutes or to use an administrative 11 license suspension remedy for those under 21, 12 and this bill in no way changes situations where 13 we have a BAC of .08 or above. 14 SENATOR PADAVAN: Read the last 15 section. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 17 recognizes Senator Galiber. 18 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, will 19 you yield for a question? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Levy, do you yield? 22 SENATOR LEVY: Yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6740 1 Levy yields, Senator Galiber. 2 SENATOR GALIBER: As usual, I 3 know the intent -- most of the time, whether 4 it's this side's or the other side, the intent 5 is good, but somewhere along the line we dropped 6 something which is ultimately detrimental to 7 someone. In this instance, is it conceivable 8 that whatever the procedure for stopping this 9 person who is in this age bracket and is tested 10 at .02, is that .02 -- if that were an adult, 11 would that .02 indicate enough reading for that 12 person to be intoxicated or covered with Driving 13 While Intoxicated or even impaired? 14 SENATOR LEVY: Under this bill, 15 no. Under the bill that passed this house with 16 only one negative vote three weeks ago, the 17 answer is yes, it would be DWI. 18 SENATOR GALIBER: DWI. So, is it 19 conceivable, Senator, that a youngster who was 20 given a small quantity of beer at home and gets 21 into a vehicle and under normal circumstances - 22 not normal circumstances but certainly would not 23 be intoxicated, certainly would not be putting 6741 1 anybody in jeopardy, would not be in that 2 category as we changed the readings because of 3 the horrible things that are happening out on 4 the highways? 5 And I agree with you, horrible 6 things are happening. Our young folks -- just 7 to make a short statement or ask the question, 8 it's never been conceivable to me as to how it 9 is that youngsters at a point in their life 10 where their reflexes are so perfect that the 11 number of accidents that occur are in the 12 category that you are concerned with. 13 But like most things that I 14 mentioned before, what your bill does and you 15 have indicated this that it is conceivable that 16 someone can read a .02 and not be in jeopardy, 17 not put anybody else in jeopardy, not be in that 18 category of driving while intoxicated, not be in 19 that category of impaired. Why then -- if I'm 20 right, why are we doing this, Senator? Why are 21 we imposing this on youngsters who are not 22 intoxicated? Those excellent reflexes that I 23 made reference to, they may later on in the 6742 1 evening, unfortunately, read point so-and-so, 2 which will be dangerous, but your piece of 3 legislation father can share a portion of a beer 4 with his daughter, she can leave - 5 SENATOR LEVY: Certainly, in the 6 other 27 states that have gone this route and 7 have had dramatic results in the decreases of 8 deaths caused by the people, they don't share 9 the conclusion that you share that you just 10 articulated, Senator. 11 Now, as you know, people under 21 12 in this state should not -- should not be 13 drinking based upon our laws, and they certainly 14 should not be driving. And depending upon what 15 they had to drink, a lot has to do with their 16 physical makeup, how tall they are, how much 17 they weigh, whether they are tired at the time 18 that they drink, whether they have eaten 19 something as it relates to what their BAC is 20 going to be and whether they are going to be 21 impaired or not. 22 This legislation goes hand in 23 glove with the legislation that we passed to 6743 1 deal with people who shouldn't be drinking and 2 driving based upon the legislation which became 3 law in the state of New York. And we are 4 dealing with .02, .03 and .04, not the way we 5 did three weeks ago, to make it a misdemeanor, 6 but solely putting this over into the 7 administrative portion of our law and to impact 8 the license. 9 And why are we doing it, 10 Senator? Because, particularly for young people 11 under the age of 21, the most important thing to 12 them -- among the most important things to them 13 is that license to drive an automobile and if 14 they believe that they are risking the losing of 15 that license, this is going to be -- based upon 16 what 27 other states and the district of 17 Columbia have shown us, it is going to deter 18 young people from driving and drinking, and 19 we're going to save lives big time in the state 20 of New York the same way that we have saved 21 lives in 27 other states and the District of 22 Columbia. That's why we want to do it this 23 year. 6744 1 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, if you 2 will yield to another question? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Levy, do you yield. 5 SENATOR LEVY: Yes, certainly. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 7 Levy yields. 8 SENATOR GALIBER: Very frankly, I 9 should stop this, because I'm going to vote for 10 the piece of legislation. I am. It's just that 11 it troubles me that we're going too far in 12 certain areas. I have the same interest that 13 you have, very frankly, but when we throw 14 statistics out, "Well, we have decreased the 15 number of deaths on highways," do you have 16 anything to give to us that would show a direct 17 causal effect of this piece of legislation in 18 other states that have deterred youngsters from 19 driving and save lives? 20 SENATOR LEVY: Yes, we have 21 statistical analyses a year after the bills have 22 become law in other states, where they say they 23 have cut down one-third on deaths that were 6745 1 caused by people under the age of 21 in 2 alcohol-related crashes. That's what the 3 statistics show. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Waldon. 6 SENATOR WALDON: Will the Senator 7 yield to one little question? 8 SENATOR LEVY: Yes. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Levy yields. 11 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Levy, is 12 there any evidence regarding people less than 21 13 who have been tested with an alcoholic content 14 of .02, I think is the lowest threshold in your 15 bill -- correct? -- as to how much impairment 16 occurs in regard to their physical capabilities, 17 i.e., touch your nose, walk the straight line, 18 can you actually operate the vehicle, is their 19 speech slurred, those kind of things? Is there 20 any database? 21 SENATOR LEVY: Senator, as I 22 indicated just a minute ago in talking with 23 Senator Galiber, as you know as a former law 6746 1 enforcement officer, the impact of any alcohol 2 is really based upon, among other things, the 3 age, the weight, whether somebody is tired, 4 whether they had eaten. We do know that 5 scientific tests that have been accepted say 6 that if you have any alcoholic intake, it has a 7 negative impact upon your reflexes, which in 8 turn has a causal impact on what you do in that 9 vehicle and exponentially increases the 10 possibility or the probability that somebody is 11 going to get killed or maimed. We know that, 12 Senator. 13 SENATOR WALDON: If I may? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Levy, do you continue to yield? 16 SENATOR LEVY: Yes, certainly. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 yields. 19 SENATOR WALDON: I'm not being 20 contentious, Senator Levy, but is there any 21 definitive evidence regarding that low number? 22 I understand the biochemistry. You know, take 23 ten people in this room; we will all react 6747 1 differently to one shot of bourbon. Okay. But 2 the threshold numbers, has there been any study 3 in any form or fashion which says that someone 4 less than 21 will be more impaired at .02 than 5 someone in excess of 21? 6 SENATOR LEVY: Oh, no. No. I'm 7 sorry, Senator. I misunderstood your question. 8 The scientists tell us that any alcohol for 9 anyone will impair their reflexes as it relates 10 to operating a motor vehicle safely. 11 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, sir. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 Secretary will read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 15. This 15 act shall take effect on the 1st day of December 16 next succeeding the date on which it shall have 17 become law. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll.) 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 22 DeFrancisco to explain his vote. 23 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I just have 6748 1 to put on the record that I have grave concerns 2 about this .02 test, whether it's a person less 3 than 21 or somebody over 80 years of age. I 4 just think that when you are doing a chemical 5 test or a breath test, the margin of error has 6 got to be pretty close to a .02. 7 But what concerns me most is that 8 in order to stop someone in a vehicle, you have 9 to have probable cause, and it was alluded to in 10 some of the debate. What characteristics does 11 one show when they have just .02 alcohol content 12 in their system, and I just have a feeling that 13 a bill that has a standard this low, basically 14 is giving law enforcement officers a carte 15 blanche to stop anybody who happens to be under 16 21 who has a driver's license because of the 17 likelihood -- not the likelihood -- because the 18 test of .02 is so easy to attain and that margin 19 of error is within that range, in my judgment. 20 Everybody wants to stop DWI, and 21 it's very difficult for anybody to vote against 22 this bill, but I just have grave concerns in 23 doing so -- and I will vote yes -- grave 6749 1 concerns in doing so because I really feel that 2 the question of probable cause is a very 3 difficult one to demonstrate with a .02 blood 4 alcohol level. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 DeFrancisco will be recorded in the 7 affirmative. 8 Senator Levy to explain his vote. 9 SENATOR LEVY: Yes, Mr. 10 President. The case law is clear in this state 11 that a police officer doesn't have the power to 12 stop someone under 21 or anyone else unless 13 there is a violation of law. That is the 14 trigger for the police officer to stop -- stop 15 the car and then seek to deal with the person 16 operating the car. There has to be a violation 17 of the law. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Levy in the affirmative. 20 The Secretary will announce the 21 results. 22 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 23 the negative on Calendar Number 293 are Senators 6750 1 Galiber, Kuhl, Mendez, and Waldon. Ayes 52. 2 Nays 4. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 4 is passed. 5 Senator Santiago, why do you 6 rise? 7 SENATOR SANTIAGO: Mr. 8 President. I would like to be recorded in the 9 negative on Calendars 1440 and 1323, please. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 11 objection, Senator Sangiago will be recorded in 12 the negative on Calendars Number 1440 and 1323. 13 Secretary will call Calendar 14 Number 261. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 261, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 4583E, 17 an act to amend the Real Property Law. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Padavan. 20 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President. 21 Earlier, Senator Daly indicated that the 22 revisions which are now in E print had involved 23 the counsel to the Secretary of State in terms 6751 1 of recommendations that have been made, and the 2 question that we wanted to resolve, and I'm sure 3 we all agree that we should, was whether or not, 4 in view of that involvement, the Secretary of 5 State was in favor of this legislation. 6 We contacted her counsel, she 7 being unavailable herself, who indicated to her 8 that the Secretary of State is still opposed to 9 this bill, and the primary and perhaps the only 10 major if not the only reason relates to a 11 provision which is on page 3 of the bill, the E 12 print, which allows this newly-created board by 13 a two-thirds majority vote to overrule the 14 Secretary of State's consent requirement on 15 their rulemaking authority. That, therefore, 16 answers the issue or the question that we had 17 earlier. 18 In regard to the entire matter, 19 Mr. President, as I have said on previous 20 occasions when this bill was discussed on the 21 floor here, my problem is not with the industry 22 in any broad sense or in the industry, in any 23 macro sense. My problem is with a portion of 6752 1 this industry which continues to participate in 2 unethical, undesirable community block busting 3 tactics. 4 My area of the City of New York, 5 a portion of it, was covered by a non 6 solicitation ban, one that had been initiated 7 over 20 years ago after proper hearing and 8 proper justification, reaffirmed by four 9 Secretaries of State, including the Governor 10 when he had that position. And recently this 11 industry, these real estate individuals went 12 into Federal Court and were successful, at least 13 at a certain level within that branch of 14 judiciary to have that ban removed. 15 I don't trust them. Their 16 interests are not consistent with the interests 17 of my constituents in this particular area, and 18 that's my primary reason for opposing this 19 legislation. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 21 recognizes Senator Daly. 22 SENATOR DALY: Senator Padavan 23 yield? 6753 1 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Padavan, will you yield to Senator Daly? 4 SENATOR DALY: Legislation as 5 drafted and amended, as you requested, in any 6 way impact on the Secretary of State's powers to 7 administer Section 442. 8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, to 9 answer your question fully, in line with prior 10 discussions you made sure that there was a 11 section in this statute that would deal with the 12 issue of the Secretary of State's authority to 13 issue nonsolicitation orders for valid reasons. 14 No problem. 15 SENATOR DALY: Okay. 16 SENATOR PADAVAN: But as I just 17 told everybody, this group doesn't care about 18 her orders. They went into Federal Court and 19 got that order overturned, therefore, I don't 20 trust them and I don't trust them with good 21 cause. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Daly. 6754 1 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. 2 Senator Padavan did say, and I understand his 3 emotion and his concern with the recent decision 4 of the courts, but this bill has nothing to do 5 with it. And the language in this bill protects 6 that very clause in the statute that Senator 7 Padavan is concerned about. 8 So I submit to my colleagues, we 9 did, we went back and amended the bill to make 10 sure that that concern -- I know Senator Maltese 11 had that concern and several of my colleagues on 12 the other side of the aisle had that concern, so 13 we tried to made sure that this bill does not 14 impact on that and it does not, as Senator 15 Padavan said. 16 And, secondly, I must admit that 17 it boggles my mind that the Secretary of State's 18 office objects to an amendment that we put in to 19 give her more power. Remember what Senator 20 Padavan said that the section that they are 21 opposed to says that two-thirds -- we put that 22 in in the amendment -- two-thirds of the board 23 has to vote affirmatively to overrule a decision 6755 1 by the Secretary of State. That wasn't in the 2 previous bill. The majority. We didn't have it 3 in the bill. 4 So I must admit I'm somewhat 5 confused by the words that we have received from 6 the Secretary of State's office that that one 7 section of the bill which we had amended to give 8 her more say over the action of the board is the 9 reason she's opposed to the bill. I guess I 10 will have to talk to someone up there for quite 11 a while before I understand that one. 12 And let me just make one more 13 point. The other concern was that the language 14 that we had in the original amendment might 15 allow a majority of the board to be real estate 16 people. We amended that language also. Very 17 specifically when you read this bill, the 18 majority has to be, including the Secretary of 19 State, public members with the Secretary of 20 State. So we made that amendment, also. 21 I submit to you that -- if you 22 remember when we debated the bill originally, I 23 stated that the Banking Advisory Committee which 6756 1 is a parallel committee has members all of whom 2 are from the banking community. That board has 3 functioned exceptionally well. I know I have 4 received no complaints about it, and I don't 5 think any of my colleague have or I'm sure I 6 would have heard about it on the floor when I 7 mentioned it. 8 So we have before us a bill that 9 is severely amended to meet some of the concerns 10 of the Secretary of State, actually I think all 11 of the concerns. As I said, I can't understand 12 why she's opposed to giving her more power over 13 the decision of the advisory board by requiring 14 two-thirds votes of the advisory board to 15 override a decision. 16 One other point. Oh! The other 17 point I'm trying to make is that the board which 18 is again made up of 15 members -- and I just 19 realized I did cover that point and let me just 20 repeat it. We make sure that a majority of the 21 board including the Secretary of State are non 22 -- non members of the real estate community. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 6757 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 2 recognizes Senator Gold. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 4 Senator yield to a question? 5 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Daly do you yield? 8 Senator yields. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I think 10 Senator Padavan already discussed, to some 11 extent, this two-thirds majority vote over 12 riding. 13 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 14 SENATOR GOLD: This statute would 15 be creating a state real estate board. Now, are 16 there other similar boards in other industries? 17 SENATOR DALY: Yes, I said there 18 is a similar board in the banking -- there is a 19 banking advisory board. 20 SENATOR GOLD: And do they have 21 that power? 22 SENATOR GOLD: All of the members 23 of banking board are from the banking community. 6758 1 SENATOR GOLD: No, no, I'm not 2 asking you that. If I may continue? 3 SENATOR DALY: I'm sorry. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 continues to yield. 6 SENATOR GOLD: What I'm saying 7 is, does the banking board have the power by a 8 two-thirds vote to override decisions? 9 SENATOR DALY: Well, not 10 decisions. Really, it's not decisions. If you 11 read, it's recommendations made, "Shall review 12 any rule...". 13 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Daly, I'm 14 not trying to - 15 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Let's deal with 17 the language. "After considering the 18 Secretary's objection, the board may amend or 19 withdraw the proposed rule or may by a 20 two-thirds majority of the members currently 21 serving on the board adopt, file a rule without 22 the Secretary's consent." Does the banking 23 board have the right to that similar rule? 6759 1 SENATOR DALY: I don't know, 2 Senator. I do not know. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Are there any 4 other boards similar to the banking and the real 5 estate board proposed? 6 SENATOR DALY: I can't think of 7 any offhand. There could well be. I very 8 frankly did not check that out. 9 SENATOR GOLD: The point is 10 this. I certainly don't have a problem with 11 there being a real estate board, as such, to be 12 helpful in government in some way, but if we 13 have never given this kind of power, the power 14 to overrule or to do this rulemaking, how do we 15 do it now? And the other question I would have, 16 Senator Daly, is a constitutional one which, of 17 course, makes everybody yawn. But I thought we 18 were law making bodies, and we could give some 19 kind of rulemaking authority, but now giving 20 what is, in essence, a granting of legislative 21 authority to the board to override the 22 Secretary, isn't that a big constitutional 23 jump? 6760 1 SENATOR DALY: Not really. The 2 way I interpret what you are saying, Senator, is 3 that they can override any decision made by the 4 Secretary of State. That's not true. It says, 5 "The Secretary of State shall review any rule, 6 including any amendment thereof, proposed by the 7 board. They are only dealing with amendments or 8 rules of amendments proposed by the board. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, but, Senator 10 -- if I may, Mr. President. Are you saying that 11 if there is a rule or an amendment proposed by 12 the board and it is overruled by the Secretary, 13 that this board can overrule the Secretary. 14 SENATOR DALY: Can come back with 15 a two-thirds vote - 16 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. 17 SENATOR DALY: -- of the board. 18 Yes, that's exactly what it is. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Which means 20 Senator Daly, any way you look at it -- any way 21 you look at it that this board can create rules 22 and regulations and that is -- as I understand 23 it -- is either a legislative function or a 6761 1 function of some governmental agency properly 2 authorized. I don't know how we create a board 3 to create laws. 4 SENATOR DALY: No, we -- Senator, 5 I think you are exaggerating just a bit there. 6 We're not creating -- let me finish. We're not 7 creating a board to create laws. Every 8 department makes rules. They promulgate rules 9 and regulations based on the request of the 10 Legislature. They have, I'm sure, rules which 11 are promulgated by the Department that are not 12 based on legislation. What we're saying here is 13 that the board, which I remind you, Senator, is 14 made up of the following -- the following, and 15 this is important, eight people appointed by the 16 Governor, two people appointed by the Majority 17 Leader, two people appointed by the Minority 18 Leader -- I'm sorry -- by the Speaker, one 19 person by the Minority Leader in both houses. 20 Think of that. Think of who appointed that 21 board, with the Governor having the power to 22 appoint the largest number, 8 out of the 14 23 appointees are by the Governor. 6762 1 The last I heard the Secretary of 2 State was also appointed by the Governor. Now, 3 I see no problem whatsoever when you have a 4 board made up of people who are appointed by the 5 governor, by the Majority Leader, by the 6 Speaker, and by the Minority Leaders, of having 7 a voice in advising -- in advising the Secretary 8 of State. And I have no problem whatsoever in 9 saying, well, if 10 of those people -- 10, that 10 means 10 out of the 14 appointed -- feel that a 11 certain rule should be implemented that they 12 have the right to demand it. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Will Senator yield 14 to a question? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Daly, do you yield? 17 SENATOR DALY: Yes, Mr. 18 President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Daly continues to yield. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Daly, a 22 lot of things that we do here, as I need not 23 tell you -- I hope you don't take this as a 6763 1 lecture. I don't mean it in a demeaning way, 2 but a lot of the things we do here deal with 3 legislative ideas which are basically in a 4 vacuum in terms that some people may agree or 5 not agree that this is good or bad, but some 6 things we do really deal with structure of 7 government, and they deal with the integrity of 8 government and a process, and that's what I'm 9 concerned about here. 10 I'm curious as to whether or not 11 we have any other situations where we are 12 creating a board which in essence is an advisory 13 board, to a large extent, but I mean we are 14 creating a board, and we are giving this kind of 15 grant of authority. If there is no precedent 16 for it, Senator Daly, it doesn't mean it's 17 wrong. This doesn't mean it's wrong, but I 18 certainly think that we should acknowledge that 19 we are taking a step that maybe we've never done 20 before, and that's all I'm trying to find out. 21 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, if 22 I may, I would remind the Senator that in law - 23 and the reason that this bill is before us is 6764 1 that in law the Secretary of State may appoint 2 an advisory board. It's in the law. She just 3 has never seen fit to do it. 4 Now, I submit to you when I'm 5 looking into a bill and I need some legal 6 interpretation, I'm not a lawyer, I find a 7 lawyer or a counsel who can advise me on that 8 legislation. If I'm dealing in hazardous waste 9 and I want to find out some scientific 10 description or some scientific definition, I go 11 to an expert there. We believe that the 12 Secretary of State should have at hand 13 representatives both from the public and -- by 14 public, I mean nonrealtor, nonreal-estate 15 interests -- and from the real estate interests 16 because they know the problems. They are living 17 with them on a day-to-day basis. 18 We feel it would be good for the 19 Secretary of State's office and good for the 20 people of New York State if the Secretary of 21 State had that kind of advisory group around 22 her, and that's the purpose of the bill. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6765 1 will read the last section. 2 Senator Dollinger. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Can I just 4 ask one question of Senator Daly? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Daly, do you yield to Senator Dollinger for one 7 question? 8 SENATOR DALY: Yes. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 yields. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, as I 12 understand this bill, at no time would there be 13 more than seven members of the real estate 14 industry on this board? 15 SENATOR DALY: And probably, 16 Senator, you will never see seven. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But as it's 18 currently drafted, there would be at most 19 seven? 20 SENATOR DALY: At most. Remember 21 the Governor can appoint up to a maximum of 22 three. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Correct. 6766 1 SENATOR DALY: The Majority 2 Leader can appoint one if he wishes to, only 3 one. The Speaker one, if he wishes to. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right. 5 SENATOR DALY: And the Minority 6 Leaders can select either a member of the real 7 estate industry or the public. You're right. 8 It's a maximum -- max seven. Probably two or 9 three. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It would take 11 a two-thirds vote, 10 of the 15 members, to 12 actually overturn the Secretary of State? 13 SENATOR DALY: That's exactly 14 right. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So at no time 16 under the way the board is configured would the 17 real estate industry, assuming ill motive which 18 I'm not necessarily going to assume, but at no 19 point would they be in a position where they 20 alone could overturn the Secretary of State 21 under the way the bill is drafted. 22 SENATOR DALY: That's correct, 23 Senator. 6767 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: No further 2 questions. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4 will read - 5 Senator Gold no. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Secretary will read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 9 act shall take effect on the first day of 10 January next succeeding the date on which it 11 shall have become a law. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 SENATOR GOLD: Have my name 16 called. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Gold to explain his vote. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 20 I'm going to support the bill, and I want to 21 explain why. I voted against prior prints, but 22 the fact of the matter is that this bill has 23 been the subject of great negotiation; and 6768 1 whereas, there are other times when I come to 2 the floor and I question why weren't there 3 conversations, I think you got to give credit 4 where it's due, even if it's a Senator from 5 Niagara Falls. Senator Daly has in fact 6 negotiated this bill, and I understand the 7 Secretary on a phone call to Senator Padavan may 8 have said she's opposed to it, but I understand 9 with due respect to her, which I do give, that 10 she was involved in this process. And while 11 there is a question on the grant of authority, 12 that's something which if we decide as a 13 legislature we want to give, we have a right to 14 give it even if it's a new type of grant, and 15 let the Governor decide whether he wants that to 16 stand. 17 I vote in the affirmative. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Gold will be recorded in the affirmative. 20 The chair recognizes Senator 21 Padavan to explain his vote. 22 SENATOR PADAVAN: No, I'm just 23 voting in the negative, Mr. President. 6769 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Padavan in the negative. Secretary will 3 announce the results when tabulated. 4 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 5 the negative on Calendar Number 261 are Senators 6 Leichter, Maltese, Padavan and Santiago, also 7 Senator Babbush. Ayes 51. Nays 5. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 Senator Present, regular order? 11 SENATOR PRESENT: Regular order. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 13 will call regular order commencing with Calendar 14 Number 1445. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 1445, by Senator Present, Senate Bill Number 17 4711B, Administrative Procedure Act. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 19 will read the last section. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on one 21 second. 22 Last section. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6770 1 Secretary will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1449, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 12 6506B, an act to amend the State Finance Law. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Saland, an explanation of Calendar Number 1449 16 has been asked for by Senator Gold. 17 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. 19 Mr. President. This is one of a 20 series of bills which I have introduced in 21 response to some investigative activities that 22 my office has been involved in in conjunction 23 with the Workers' Compensation controversy, the 6771 1 one involving the stripping of Unisys of a 2 contract that had been awarded them and 3 involving the questions of both the actions in 4 behalf of the Workers' Compensation people in 5 making their determination and the seeming 6 failure to ignore -- failure to respond to a bid 7 by IBM. 8 This bill basically says that the 9 State's competitive bidding processes which 10 certainly provides for competitive bidding when 11 we're dealing with goods and materials provides 12 differently when we deal with services, and the 13 parameters of competitive range have never been 14 well defined in our law, and the net result is a 15 tremendous amount of discretion among those 16 executive agencies and authorities in 17 determining who shall be the appropriate bidder 18 or receive the bid where there is a services 19 RFP. 20 What we have attempted to do here 21 is to create a mechanism that says where there 22 is the greater New York State impact, where 23 there are at least two bids for a services 6772 1 contract and both those bids meet all the 2 technical specifications, both are within the 3 competitive range, and both come from 4 responsible bidders, the authority or the agency 5 will then have to request from DED, the 6 Department of Economic Development, and Taxation 7 and Finance a review by them to determine which 8 would have the greater economic impact on the 9 State of New York. 10 And if you look at page 4 of the 11 bill, that says that the evaluation shall 12 include but not be limited to an analysis of 13 potential corporate tax revenue, jobs created or 14 retained, income tax revenue, sales tax revenue 15 and property tax revenue. 16 Similarly, we attempt to limit 17 that competitive range to a 10 percent factor, 18 the purpose of which is to basically avoid the 19 wide discretion that sometimes appears to occur 20 in these cases. 21 Also understand what we are doing 22 here is not creating a price preference as the 23 contracting agency would not be forced to choose 6773 1 a bid which under the present system it does not 2 already have the ability to choose. 3 This legislation also preserves 4 as is in existing law the ability of the 5 contracting agency to reject all bids 6 irrespective of their economic impact. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The chair 8 recognizes Senator Galiber. 9 SENATOR GALIBER: Will you yield 10 for a question? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Will you 12 yield to Senator Galiber? 13 SENATOR SALAND: Yes. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Saland yields. 16 SENATOR GALIBER: Would you agree 17 that OGS has played a very important role in 18 terms of this piece of legislation? 19 SENATOR SALAND: Sir, would you 20 repeat your question? 21 SENATOR GALIBER: Office of 22 General Services has a big play in terms of a 23 service contract, since it is my understanding 6774 1 that they have the responsibility for doing a 2 lot of these contracts and bids with other state 3 agencies. Is that correct? 4 SENATOR SALAND: Correct. 5 SENATOR GALIBER: Have you heard 6 from -- not put it that way. I have heard from 7 them that they have not been consulted in regard 8 to this bill. Rather than throw a sand bag at 9 you. Have you consulted? They tell me you have 10 not consulted with them. 11 The Comptroller's office because 12 you plug it into a particular section, your 13 piece of legislation -- I'm not sure if it's 170 14 or 112, but it precludes -- by you're saying 15 that this would be final precludes the 16 Comptroller's input. It's part of those 17 three-point questions. 18 SENATOR SALAND: Let me address 19 the first question. Back in March at a 20 negotiation that was occurring with OGS people 21 regarding an Article VII bill, members of my 22 staff advised them of our intention of putting 23 out a bill -- of this bill. I believe by that 6775 1 time we had put out the bill. We invited their 2 comment and asked if they were interested in 3 working with us, and we have not heard from them 4 since that point in time. 5 SENATOR GALIBER: I would imagine 6 that means, yes, that they have not been 7 consulted but given an opportunity to confer 8 with you. 9 SENATOR SALAND: They've 10 certainly been given that opportunity. They 11 were invited. Their comments certainly would 12 have been welcome. This bill as I look at it I 13 see is dated January 20, 1994. I would think 14 that in the three months that have elapsed since 15 we gave them the specific invitation, they have 16 had ample opportunity to talk to us. 17 SENATOR GALIBER: Have you 18 extended the same courtesy or made the same 19 inquiry as to the Comptroller's office? 20 SENATOR SALAND: We have 21 communicated with the Comptroller's office but 22 not specifically with regard to this bill. We 23 have communicated with the Comptroller's office 6776 1 expressing our concerns about what occurred in 2 the Workers' Comp Unisys matter. We have 3 expressed some concerns as to whether or not the 4 bidder who received the bid in that case, 5 Unisys, was a responsible bidder. We've 6 provided them with information that we think is 7 relevant to that particular proceeding. 8 SENATOR GALIBER: Would it be 9 fair, Senator, since it's your piece of 10 legislation and you've read it and maybe have 11 had hearings or certainly a great deal of 12 consultation on it, there are sections in this 13 piece of legislation that if, in fact, this 14 becomes final, as your legislation says, 15 wouldn't that, in effect, indirectly or directly 16 preclude the Comptroller's office, who has 17 interest in either overseeing or making some 18 comments or perhaps having the authority to 19 perhaps not veto but come pretty close to doing 20 so? 21 SENATOR SALAND: I don't view 22 this bill as -- the Comptroller, as I understand 23 it, by the way, has a somewhat similar bill out 6777 1 that the Comptroller has offered. This bill is 2 not intended to circumscribe the Comptroller. 3 The bill, basically, is an effort to try and 4 deal with the issue of service contracts and 5 establish guidelines where you have comparable 6 bids within that so-called comparable range 7 where they meet all those specifications. 8 We feel that it is important to 9 the State of New York to basically weigh. It 10 may well be that a foreign corporation would 11 have a greater impact, greater economic impact, 12 say, for example because it would subcontract 13 with a number of New York state subs than would 14 a domestic corporation that might not 15 necessarily either get all the materials or 16 provide all the services from New York. 17 This is, as I said in my earlier 18 remarks, not a preference bill. It's really a 19 bill that's aimed specifically at economic 20 development in an economic impact in the State 21 of New York. 22 SENATOR GALIBER: Let me take you 23 back. 6778 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Saland, do you continue to yield? 3 SENATOR GALIBER: I'm sorry. 4 Will you yield? 5 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 6 President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Saland yields. 9 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, would 10 this piece of legislation have anything to do 11 with the economic impact on IBM, the fact that 12 they have laid off so many people; and, 13 unfortunately, if I may quickly add, very 14 frankly, there are those of us who have used 15 that example of IBM leaving Mid-Hudson with all 16 this trained staff and the physical plants 17 there, and we can't, unfortunately, get anyone 18 to come in. 19 SENATOR SALAND: No, let me 20 respond to that question by saying -- and I 21 think I acknowledged that up front. I came to 22 this issue perhaps in a somewhat parochial 23 fashion, and it was really the response to what 6779 1 occurred in the Hudson Valley which basically 2 made me cognizant of really some rather woefully 3 inept laws in dealing with bidding, in dealing 4 with contracting for services. Basically, it 5 was sort of like, you know, the door was wide 6 open and there was very little oversight. And 7 particularly when you were talking about service 8 contracts, the existing law just hides a 9 multitude of sins. 10 And believe me when I tell you 11 I'm confident that there are a number of sinners 12 out there, and what we're attempting to do is to 13 sort of define parameters, and there is nothing 14 in here that is intended to do anything but be 15 an economic advantage to New York corporations. 16 Certainly in no way, shape or 17 form, is this intended to be a plum for IBM. It 18 is intended to deal with anybody who is willing 19 to do business in New York, making sure that New 20 York becomes the focal point of their efforts. 21 And, again, let me please 22 repeat -- and I'm sorry. I don't care if you 23 are a bidder from Texas, a bidder from 6780 1 California, a bidder from Illinois. I mean that 2 if -- when this is reviewed by DED and Taxation 3 and Finance, if it's a close call, all other 4 things being equal, if you are within the 5 parameters as defined and you are going to do 6 better by New York, then we are going to give 7 you that ability. 8 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, you 9 have been very candid, and I say this not 10 massaging you as far as our debates are 11 concerned. There seems to be some allegations 12 that there is some ambiguity in the definition 13 of service contracts. That happens when we 14 tackle from a parochial standpoint issue that - 15 because it concerns us. 16 This ambiguity is suggested by 17 the Office of General Services, who you offered 18 an opportunity to step into the swim on this 19 piece of legislation, that they suggest that the 20 ambiguity in terms of defining what service 21 contracts are would probably foster, like most 22 things that are vague and ambiguous, number of 23 lawsuits. 6781 1 Do you, first off, say yes or no 2 to me as far as the ambiguity. That takes a 3 sense of admission that I'm sure you would do if 4 it's there. 5 SENATOR SALAND: I'm troubled by 6 that because our effort was to codify existing 7 case law, and the definitions come from some of 8 the leading cases dealing with this very subject 9 matter, so -- I mean if they can point 10 particularly to what troubles them or if they 11 can -- if they are willing to tell me that they 12 are not satisfied with the case law, it may well 13 have been appropriate for them to do that some 14 time between March and now. But I think what 15 you are seeing is a codification of prevailing 16 case law. 17 SENATOR GALIBER: Will you 18 continue to yield, Senator? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Saland, do you yield to another question? 21 SENATOR SALAND: Certainly, Mr. 22 President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6782 1 yields. 2 SENATOR GALIBER: When you 3 measure things in the legislative process, when 4 you are dealing with the legislative process, a 5 couple months don't make any difference as my 6 grandma used to say, especially something as 7 earthshaking as this, but the Office of General 8 Services indicates that the definition of 9 service contracts - 10 SENATOR SALAND: Excuse me, 11 Senator. I'm truly having a difficult time 12 hearing you. 13 SENATOR GALIBER: Oh, I'm sorry. 14 Okay. The definition -- and this is from the 15 office of Office of General Services. "The 16 definition of service contracts is inadequate 17 and very subjective. The bill's definition of 18 competitive range is vague. The agency does not 19 know what it means. It is not beyond the 20 agency's current capacity to establish such 21 competitive range and evaluate the economic 22 impact of the contracts." 23 SENATOR SALAND: Would you just 6783 1 repeat the last portion of that? 2 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes. "It is 3 not beyond the agency's current capacity to 4 establish such a competitive range and evaluate 5 the economic impact of the contract." That has 6 part of the explanation for the first two. 7 That's their observation as to the first two 8 issues I mentioned. 9 "The definition of service 10 contract is inadequate and," they put, "very 11 subjective." Is that so? 12 SENATOR SALAND: I didn't view it 13 as such when we drafted this legislation. As I 14 said, we attempted to deal with what was the 15 prevailing case law at the time and, for that 16 matter, is currently the prevailing case law. 17 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, I 18 have - 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Saland, do you continue to yield? 21 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 22 President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6784 1 continues to yield. 2 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, I have 3 Executive Department, Office of General 4 Services, memorandum. Whether it's three months 5 later or not, but certainly it's important to 6 this piece of legislation, and it's dated June 7 30, 1994. 8 SENATOR SALAND: Rather current I 9 would say, Senator. 10 SENATOR GALIBER: Let me ask you 11 this question. I think I know the answer. Do 12 you have this memo? 13 SENATOR SALAND: No, I don't. 14 SENATOR GALIBER: I didn't think 15 you did. It says -- I'm willing to share this, 16 of course, with you. 17 SENATOR SALAND: Please. Thank 18 you. 19 SENATOR GALIBER: It says, 20 "Notwithstanding the sponsor's memorandum in 21 support of the referenced bill, it is clear that 22 its implementation would have significant fiscal 23 effect on OGS's operation and programs, and 6785 1 although it is not possible at this time to 2 assign a dollar figure to the increased cost 3 which will be occasioned by the bill's 4 enactment, it is clear that the bill's 5 requirements in the following areas will result 6 in increased costs," and it goes on. 7 "Initially, the bill required analysis of 8 distinction between commodity and service 9 contracts, will require utilization of sparse 10 personnel prior to letting of any OGS 11 centralized contract. Additionally, the bill's 12 requirement for the determination of service 13 contract, besides being beyond OGS's present 14 capacity, given the number of assigned 15 categories of purchasing professionals would 16 necessarily require the utilization of 17 additional personnel for administrative 18 purposes." 19 (The memo read was handed to 20 Senator Saland.) 21 So it will add some fairness to 22 it so you will at least have an opportunity to 23 read what they've said as of June 30, 1994, 6786 1 which seems to me to be relatively important to 2 this piece of legislation, if it is to pass both 3 houses. I think that if they have this kind of 4 objection, or even part of these objections, the 5 chance of it passing the other house -- and I 6 understand where you are coming from in terms of 7 that Hudson Valley matter of economics, but I'm 8 concerned also, very frankly. 9 Wouldn't it be -- after careful 10 reading of this memo, would it suggest that 11 putting it aside for a day -- you won't lose 12 very much -- might help its movement. Because 13 you understand, as usual, the intent is good, 14 but I'm saying we're hitting in areas where OGS 15 services the other agencies; and, certainly, if 16 there is any ambiguity, if there's any fault 17 with this, if there's anything that we could 18 possibly clear up here, I'm sure that you would 19 want to do that. 20 I don't say that with tongue in 21 cheek. I mean it sincerely. Sometimes we don't 22 pass pieces of legislation because we have pure 23 numbers, as I would say. Just pass it. It 6787 1 doesn't make any difference whether it's right, 2 wrong, constitutional, unconstitutional, just 3 pass it because we have the numbers. 4 You have not impressed me, most 5 of the time anyway, of wanting to do that. But 6 here's an instance where it bears on the 7 economic factor for the State of New York in 8 terms of its competitiveness for survival so we 9 won't have duplications of Mid Hudson throughout 10 our state. As our economy slowly goes up, we 11 want to improve on it, all of us do. 12 So perhaps it might be wise to 13 take a look at the memo and maybe lay it aside 14 for a day to see whether or not there is 15 anything - 16 SENATOR SALAND: May I just 17 respond, at least in part. I have to assume and 18 I would be absolutely shocked, Senator, that OGS 19 is not making distinctions between commodity and 20 service contracts. I mean that's a 21 responsibility of theirs, and they must do that 22 before they determine whether or not a contract 23 has to be bid. 6788 1 So I'm not quite sure what they 2 are telling us there because they are already 3 supposed to be doing that. 4 And I'm particularly troubled by 5 what I think would be their misreading of the 6 bill when it says, "The bill's requirement for 7 the determination of economic impact on the 8 state prior to the award of service contract 9 besides being beyond OGS's present capacity..." 10 Well, they are not asked to make that 11 determination. That has been specifically 12 delegated to DED and Taxation and Finance. 13 So it makes me wonder if this is 14 a little bit of double speak or perhaps a little 15 bit of fog. I'm a little troubled by it, and I 16 would have been a lot more comfortable if some 17 little bit earlier they might have provided us 18 with this memo; but, nonetheless, I do have 19 reservations about at least those provisions 20 which certainly calls, I think, into issue the 21 credibility of the rest of their points. 22 SENATOR GALIBER: I shared this 23 memo with you. 6789 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Saland, do you continue to yield. 3 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 4 President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 yields. 7 SENATOR GALIBER: I draw your 8 attention again to something I mentioned in 9 passing before. In the last paragraph, it says, 10 "Further, we believe that the bill's ambiguity 11 with regard to its contractual definition and 12 it's required determination of competitive range 13 and economic impact would almost invaribly 14 result in litigation by disaffected affected 15 vendors, would result in significant and 16 detrimental fiscal impact." We're talking about 17 litigation again. 18 SENATOR SALAND: But, Senator, 19 that already happens now. What we're doing is 20 we're defining what competitive range shall be, 21 and what we're saying is instead of leaving the 22 barn door wide open and instead of leaving the 23 unfettered discretion of an agency to determine 6790 1 what constitutes competitive range, we're saying 2 there's going to be a 10 percent factor. We're 3 saying -- again, and it's very important for me 4 to reemphasize this point -- that the competing 5 bidders have to all meet certain specific 6 requirements and there are three of them. 7 They've got to meet the technical 8 specifications. They have to be within that 9 competitive range, within 10 percent of each 10 other, and they've got to be a responsible 11 bidder. Those are pretty fair. Those are, I 12 think, pretty reasonable criterion. 13 And the fact that we are 14 narrowing competitive range I think is an 15 appropriate oversight function for us as a 16 Legislature in providing those kinds of 17 guidelines, because there are no guidelines now 18 and competitive range can be all over the map. 19 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes, thank you, 20 Senator. 21 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, 22 Senator. 23 SENATOR GALIBER: On the 6791 1 legislation, Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Galiber on the bill. 4 SENATOR GALIBER: Now that we've 5 had a bit of debate in regard to this, and 6 whether Office of General Services is three 7 months late or no, whether the Comptroller's 8 office will be shut out as a result of this 9 piece of legislation passing, the point is that 10 the debate between the two of us, Senator, 11 certainly has made it crystal clear in my 12 judgment by your response, very candidly, that 13 there is some ambiguity on the state agency that 14 we, as state legislators, are forcing by 15 legislation on that agency. 16 They have written a memo, late as 17 it may be, dated June the 30th, 1994, suggesting 18 that there is ambiguity. It is not clear as to 19 what service and commodities are all about. 20 They have indicated and seriously questioned 21 what would be the impact as far as revenue is 22 concerned, whether this carefully thought-out 23 formula that you and your staff have put 6792 1 together, and I say that in all sincerity, 2 whether that 10 percent will be looked at as a 3 sword or shield, will we cut people up, hide 4 behind it, be beneficial or no history will 5 record. We have an opportunity not to put this 6 in history, because the agencies that is going 7 to be impacted on who will have the total 8 responsibility of making those very fine 9 distinctions or broad difference is saying that 10 this bill is going to encourage lawsuits, that 11 there is ambiguity, that there is serious 12 questions as to whether this will work. 13 I think that, in and of itself, 14 warrants, since we have waited three months - 15 and I don't want to wait to next week with this, 16 Senator, because you and all of us know we would 17 like to be some place else next week. But it 18 seems, based on this memo, that we lose 19 absolutely nothing by calling and saying to 20 them, "This is a memo. You say you have this 21 ambiguity. I have staff people who have worked 22 on this. They are the experts." And I mean 23 that sincerely also, like my staff are the 6793 1 experts over here. 2 And if there is, we want a good 3 piece of legislation that is going to serve the 4 general public in terms of economics throughout 5 the state. And we know, and you've had the 6 experience on the other side, that if we don't 7 clear this matter up, it's not going to go any 8 further. And the thrust of what this piece of 9 legislation is all about is important enough for 10 some changes to be made so that we won't have a 11 reoccurrence of what the motivating factor was 12 for you to bring this could be excellent piece 13 of legislation to our attention. 14 Calls for a mere phone call after 15 some three months or so to clear up some 16 things. Worth a chance. Worth an opportunity. 17 I'm not sure after the telephone conversation if 18 you may it whether it will be any clearer, but 19 there is always that possibility. 20 That's what I'm asking for, Mr. 21 President, that the sponsor of the bill -- and I 22 thank him for his very candid response to the 23 questions on this issue -- would lay the bill 6794 1 aside for a day, just to call OGS, if nothing 2 more than to find out what took you so long 3 after three months. 4 Thank you, Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The chair 6 recognizes Senator Stachowski. 7 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Will Senator 8 Saland yield for a question? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Saland, do you yield to a question from Senator 11 Stachowski. 12 SENATOR SALAND: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Saland yields. 15 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Senator, one 16 of the problems we run into sometimes when we 17 look at bills that give a 10 percent swing in 18 the bidding process is that the people on the 19 second floor, and mostly I believe it's probably 20 their legal department, immediately warns us 21 that there could be a problem with a retaliatory 22 action on behalf of states that represents 23 vendors that maybe lose the contract because of 6795 1 this 10 percent swing to economic advantage to 2 the State of New York. Does this bill address 3 that part? 4 SENATOR SALAND: No. And I think 5 your concern was a concern that I had, Senator, 6 when I started to draft this legislation. I 7 certainly didn't want to do anything that was 8 going to invite any kind of retaliatory action. 9 If you can recall my comments in response to my 10 debate with Senator Galiber, this does not 11 insure that New York corporations are going to 12 be successful bidders in this process. What it 13 says is that if in fact you have -- and I will 14 go back to those same three factors -- if you 15 have met all the technical specifications, you 16 need that to get in the door, and you are within 17 that competitive range which we have defined as 18 10 percent, and you are a responsible bidder 19 that you are not somehow or another somebody 20 who's been engaged in illegal activities and in 21 some way or other subject to either the 22 condemnation of the criminal law or some other 23 misconduct, you are a player and we will 6796 1 consider your bid. 2 If you happen to be a 3 Pennsylvania corporation or a New Jersey 4 corporation and if your proposal -- and, again, 5 I will come back to the language of the bill. 6 When the evaluation is made by DED and Taxation 7 and Finance, that evaluation, and I'm quoting 8 here on page 4, lines 50 through 53, "Such 9 evaluation shall include but be not limited to 10 an analysis of potential corporate tax revenue, 11 jobs created or retained, income tax revenue, 12 sales tax revenue and property tax revenue." 13 That does not mean that the X Y Z 14 Corp in New Jersey will not prevail over the 15 A B C Corp in New York. It may well be that 16 there is much more to be said in terms of New 17 York economic impact because of the 18 subcontractors they may well deal with, the 19 consultants they may well deal with, and this is 20 not an effort to create borders. 21 It is an effort to enhance 22 economic development in New York. 23 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 6797 1 President. Would the sponsor yield for another 2 question? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Saland, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 6 President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 continues to yields. 9 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: In your 10 explanation, you hit on another part that is 11 actually my second question; and that is, you 12 used the term, "if they are a responsible 13 bidder," and for the last few years, we have 14 gone through all kinds of anxieties in the labor 15 committee and in bids on SUNY contracts, 16 Dormitory Authority contracts, highway 17 contracts, on reaching just that definition, 18 "What is a responsible bidder?" And I don't 19 know if your bill has that, but so far, we 20 haven't had a great definition on what a 21 responsible bidder actually is. 22 SENATOR SALAND: And I know, 23 Senator, that you have a keen and longstanding 6798 1 interest in dealing with that bill, and I know 2 you've introduced -- with that concept, and I 3 know you have introduced legislation to deal 4 with that. We do not do anything definitionally 5 here in this bill. Whatever currently 6 determines responsible bidder would be the 7 standards by which these prospective bidders 8 would be considered. 9 The interest in if not redefining 10 then certainly better describing what a 11 responsible bidder is is one which I would share 12 with you, and I would reasonably hope that in 13 the coming session if the two of us are 14 fortunate enough to be back that we will have 15 the opportunity to maybe dwell on that at 16 greater length, but it is an issue, an important 17 one, and one which I, too, would like to 18 address. 19 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Thank you. 20 Just on the bill. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Stachowski on the bill. 23 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: I don't have 6799 1 a problem with this bill; and if we can find a 2 way to do a swing on the 10 percent on that, I 3 don't have a problem with that. But I would 4 suggest to Senator Saland that maybe he can help 5 me with the Labor Committee to get the 6 responsible bidder definition bill that we have 7 which actually pretty much mirrors what the 8 Governor put out in an executive order and 9 clearly defines what contractors would have to 10 do -- or better yet, what they would not be able 11 to do in order to be a responsible bidder. And 12 if we can get that legislation through, then we 13 would have that definition that I so much worry 14 about, and I would have absolutely no trouble 15 with this bill. 16 Thank you very much. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 Secretary will read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6800 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Galiber to explain his vote. 3 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes. I want 4 you to know, Senator, that I'm voting against 5 this merely because you didn't make that 6 telephone call. It has nothing to do with the 7 substance of the bill or the intent, so it's a 8 protest no. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Galiber recorded in the negative. 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. Nays 12 1. Senator Galiber recorded in the negative. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 Senator Saland, why do you rise? 16 SENATOR SALAND: Please note my 17 apologies to the Senator, as a gentleman, and I 18 do apologize if I appeared ungentlemanly. 19 Thank you. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Present, we have a number of housekeeping items 22 at the desk we'd like to take care of, if 23 possible. 6801 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Let's 2 accommodate the desk. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All 4 right. Senator Libous for a motion. 5 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. On behalf of Senator Nozzolio, on 7 page 31, I offer the following amendments to 8 Calendar Number 1379, Senate Print Number 8648, 9 and ask that said bill retain its place on the 10 Third Reading Calendar. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 12 Amendments are received and adopted. The bill 13 will retain its place on Third Reading Calendar. 14 Senator Libous. 15 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr. 16 President. Also on behalf of my colleague, 17 Senator Maltese, on page 24, I offer the 18 following amendments to Calendar Number 1048, 19 Senate Print number 366, and I also ask that 20 said bill retain its place on the Third Reading 21 Calendar. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 23 Amendments are received and adopted. The bill 6802 1 will retain its place on the Third Reading 2 Calendar. 3 Senator DiCarlo. 4 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President. 5 I wish to call up my bill, Senate Print 8405A, 6 recalled from the Assembly, which is now at the 7 desk. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 9 will read. 10 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 11 DiCarlo, Senate Bill Number 8405A, an act to 12 amend the Social Services Law. 13 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President. 14 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 15 bill was passed and ask that the bill be 16 restored to the order of third reading. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 question is on vote to reconsider the vote by 19 which the bill passed the Senate. 20 The Secretary will read the roll 21 on reconsideration. 22 (The Secretary called the roll on 23 reconsideration.) 6803 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is before the house. 4 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President. 5 I now move to discharge from the Committee on 6 Rules Assembly Print 8527A and substitute it for 7 my identical bill. The Senate bill on first 8 passage was voted unanimously. I now move the 9 substituted Assembly bill have its third reading 10 at this time. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Assembly bill will be discharged and substituted 13 for your Senate bill. 14 The Secretary will read the last 15 section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll.) 21 THE SECRETARY: Unanimous. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 23 is passed. 6804 1 Senator Rath. 2 SENATOR RATH: Yes, Mr. 3 President. I would like please to have a 4 sponsor star placed on my bill, Calendar 796, 5 Print 6751. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 sponsor star is placed on it. Sorry, I didn't 8 hear you. 9 SENATOR RATH: Thank you. 10 And, Mr. President, on page 32, 11 please place a sponsor star on Calendar 1421, 12 Print 7507A. Thank you. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sponsor 14 star will be placed on Calendar 1421. 15 Senator Present, we have a number 16 of substitutions to read. Ask the Secretary to 17 read. 18 Senator Galiber before the 19 substitutions. 20 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes. Mr. 21 President. May I have, if it's in order, 22 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative 23 on a couple of bills? 6805 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 2 Certainly. 3 SENATOR GALIBER: Okay. It's 4 Calendar Number 261 and Calendar Number 1323. 5 THE SECRETARY: 261 and 1323. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 7 objection, Senator Galiber will be recorded in 8 the negative on Calendar 261 and 1323. 9 Senator Stachowski. 10 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 11 President. May I have unanimous consent to be 12 recorded in the negative on Calendar 1323, 13 please. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 15 objection, Senator Stachowski will be recorded 16 in the negative on Calendar 1323. 17 Senator Markowitz. 18 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Same thing 19 for me, Mr. President, to be recorded in the 20 negative on Calendar 1323. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 22 objection, Senator Markowitz will be recorded in 23 the negative on Calendar Number 1323. 6806 1 Senator Kruger. 2 SENATOR KRUGER: Yes, Mr. 3 President. I too would like to be recorded in 4 the negative on Calendar 1323. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 6 objection, Senator Kruger will be recorded in 7 the negative on Calendar Number 1323. 8 Senator Gold. 9 SENATOR GOLD: I ask unanimous 10 consent to be recorded in the negative on 11 Calendar 1323. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 13 objection Senator Gold will be recorded in the 14 negative on Calendar Number 1323. 15 Secretary will read the 16 substitutions. 17 THE SECRETARY: On page 4, 18 Senator Kuhl moves to discharge the Committee on 19 Rules from Assembly Bill Number 4806B and 20 substitute it for the identical Calendar 66. 21 On page 10, Senator Lack moves to 22 discharge the Committee on Rules from Assembly 23 Bill Number 9115A and substitute it for the 6807 1 identical Third Reading 492. 2 On page 12, Senator Daly moves to 3 discharge the Committee on Rules from Assembly 4 Bill Number 10300B and substitute it for the 5 identical Third Reading 593. 6 On page 13, Senator Skelos moves 7 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 8 Assembly Bill Number 12112, and substitute it 9 for the identical Third Reading 600. 10 On page 16, Senator Goodman moves 11 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 12 Assembly Bill Number 6114D and substitute it for 13 the identical Calendar Number 709. 14 On page 18, Senator Maltese moves 15 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 16 Assembly Bill Number 10571A and substitute it 17 for the identical Third Reading 813. 18 On page 19, Senator Velella moves 19 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 20 Assembly Bill Number 11735A and substitute it 21 for the identical Third Reading 882. 22 On page 23, Senator Levy moves to 23 discharge the Committee on Rules from Assembly 6808 1 Bill Number 2235B and substitute it for the 2 identical Third Reading 1028. 3 On page 30, Senator Johnson moves 4 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 5 Assembly Bill Number 11822A and substitute it 6 for the identical Third Reading 1368. 7 On page 36, Senator Skelos moves 8 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 9 Assembly Bill Number 10407B and substitute it 10 for the identical Third Reading 1457. 11 On page 36, Senator Sears moves 12 to discharge the Committee on Rules from 13 Assembly Bill Number 11581B and substitute it 14 for the identical Third Reading 1460. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 16 Substitutions are ordered. 17 Chair recognizes Senator Present. 18 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 19 Can we take up Calendar 1407. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 21 will read Calendar Number 1407. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar 23 Number 1407, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill 6809 1 Number 8606, establish a moratorium on requiring 2 any disconnection from the Letchworth State Park 3 waterline. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Maltese, an explanation of Calendar 1407 has 6 been asked for by Senator Gold. 7 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President. 8 This is an act to establish a moritorium on 9 requiring any disconnection from the Letchworth 10 State Park waterline. Since in my district 11 especially on behalf of Mr. Volker, Senator 12 Volker, I'm a friend of the dairy farmer. In 13 this specific situation, a dairy farmer in 14 Senator Volker's district and in Assemblyman 15 Reynolds' district has been connected to the 16 waterline that goes from the lake to Letchworth 17 Park. This connection was made on property 18 owned by the farmer and which the park received 19 a easement -- on which the park received an 20 easement. 21 What this amendment seeks to do 22 is protect the farmer from having his main 23 source of water to feed his cattle disconnected 6810 1 while they attempt to work out an equitable 2 arrangement. But the only person affected by 3 this bill would be this specific farmer, 4 approximately -- even if a new water district is 5 established, which is what they are trying to 6 work out, only seven or eight families, all 7 dairy farmers, would be affected. But as far as 8 this specific bill, it does not seek to 9 reconnect or change anyone else's rights. It 10 only seeks to protect this specific farmer from 11 having his source of water for his cattle 12 disconnected. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 14 recognized Senator Gold. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Does Senator 16 Maltese yield to a question? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Maltese, do you yield? 19 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 yields. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, is 80th 23 Street and Metropolitan Avenue in your 6811 1 district? 2 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes, it is. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, if I were 4 to tell you that there is a store located at 5 that vicinity, and somebody came into that store 6 and specifically asked the store owner to give 7 them some property which they were denied and 8 the person took the property anyway, the store 9 owner is suing to get it back, but they asked 10 you to put in a bill to let the thief keep the 11 property while they negotiated something 12 amicable, would you put in that bill, Senator? 13 SENATOR MALTESE: No, I would 14 not. But in this specific situation, we have a 15 farmer who is paying for the water -- not a 16 thief, who is having the water metered by 17 apparently an agreement with the state park and 18 is paying as he utilizes the water. 19 SENATOR GOLD: On the bill, Mr. 20 President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, 22 Senator Gold. On the bill. 23 SENATOR GOLD: I know, Mr. 6812 1 President, that deep in your heart you have only 2 love for farmers, so I don't know whether you 3 should be even presiding right now. I 4 understand the explanation given by Senator 5 Maltese helping our distinguished colleague, 6 Senator Volker, but I just want the chamber to 7 understand there was a memo in opposition from 8 Parks and Recreation. 9 What they basically say -- and 10 I'll read it to you. It's very short. Four 11 years ago, a private landowner illegally 12 connected into the water supply system after - 13 after the landowner had specifically been denied 14 permission to do it. The legislation 15 prohibiting OPRHP from disconnecting this 16 private connection would, in effect, sanction a 17 deliberate, unauthorized activity through which 18 a private entity has appropriated public 19 property owned by the State of New York. 20 Now, I think it's fascinating. I 21 really think it's fascinating. I don't want to 22 see the farmer hurt, and maybe the farmer ought 23 to be able to get this water. I don't know all 6813 1 of the details. I just think it's fascinating. 2 Here we are coming to the closing 3 hours of this session. We have not as yet seen 4 these major crime packages to clamp down on 5 criminals, and I know when we get it the 6 sponsorship is all going to be Republican 7 names. You never even let our side co-sponsor 8 even though you will take our votes along with 9 it. But here's a piece of legislation that says 10 what the heck. This isn't some minority kid in 11 the ghetto who breaks into a store. This isn't 12 Les Miserable. Him you could run over. 13 But here's a poor farmer who 14 steals the water. He's told you can't do it. 15 He made application. Turned down. You can't do 16 it. He goes onto state land and steals it 17 anyway, and now we want to pass a law that tells 18 the State of New York you can't even disconnect 19 him. 20 Well, I just think -- I just 21 think it's a fascinating argument. I am 22 thrilled that it is coming from Republican 23 conservatives. If this bill was put in by a 6814 1 liberal Democrat, you would knock us off the 2 face of the planet. We don't understand the 3 laws. We don't understand what it is to be law 4 abiding. It is incredible. 5 Not only that, let me tell you 6 this. If this was a store owner from the South 7 Bronx, you would probably want the death 8 penalty. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Any other 10 speaker wishing to speak on this bill? 11 Senator Solomon. 12 SENATOR SOLOMON: It's not 3:00 13 in the morning, so. Will Senator Maltese yield, 14 please? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Maltese, do you yield? 17 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 19 Senator yields. 20 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, I read 21 the memorandum in opposition, and it was pretty 22 strong language, "private landowner illegally 23 connected into Letchworth State Park water 6815 1 supply system." Do you have any proof to the 2 contrary? 3 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President. 4 I am advised that contrary to the protestations 5 of Senator Gold that this agreement between the 6 farmer and the park resulted from a stipulation 7 as a result of a lawsuit. It was not a lawsuit 8 in conversion or theft of services but a lawsuit 9 brought in civil court where a stipulation was 10 entered into by both sides which provided that 11 the farmer would pay for the water as metered. 12 So we don't exactly have the situation as laid 13 out by Senator Gold. 14 In addition, I think if any proof 15 was needed as to how humane this side of the 16 aisle is. Here it is the waning hours of the 17 session and we do not let the plight of an 18 upstate farmer who requires water for his cattle 19 go unheeded. So I think that what this 20 indicates is that we on this side of the aisle 21 worry about every constituent no matter how 22 small the problem. 23 SENATOR SOLOMON: Mr. President. 6816 1 SENATOR MALTESE: Senator 2 Solomon, mostly respectfully, I forgot your 3 question. 4 SENATOR SOLOMON: I know you 5 forgot my question. I asked if you had any 6 proof showing me that it was not illegal. 7 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President. 8 SENATOR SOLOMON: Don't tell me 9 about the farmer's plight. Just tell me whether 10 there's any proof. 11 SENATOR MALTESE: I am advised 12 that this was a stipulation. I don't have any 13 proof that it wasn't illegal. But I think if it 14 arose out of a court stipulation, both sides 15 entered before a court of law and came to an 16 agreement. 17 SENATOR SOLOMON: Mr. President. 18 Another short question. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Maltese, do you continue to yield? 21 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 yield. 6817 1 SENATOR SOLOMON: Can you tell me 2 what the estimated value of the water is on an 3 annual basis? It is not like a water fountain. 4 SENATOR MALTESE: I am advised 5 the farmer has approximately 750 cows, and - 6 but I don't know the value of the water, but he 7 is paying for it, so I think if we could require 8 expert testimony as to how much water a cow 9 drinks over a normal day, we would probably 10 multiply it by 750 and come up with a reasonable 11 estimate. 12 SENATOR SOLOMON: I know. On the 13 bill. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Solomon on the bill. 16 SENATOR SOLOMON: I was not going 17 to ask Senator Maltese how much water each cow 18 consumes each day, because I have a feeling that 19 it would be kind of difficult for him to come up 20 with that answer, unless there is a farm hidden 21 in his district that I'm not aware of. 22 But I would suspect that 750 cows 23 drink a lot more water -- or use quite a bit of 6818 1 water. And I'm really concerned about the fact 2 that this memorandum in opposition is drafted so 3 strongly by the state agency to specifically 4 state that this landowner illegally connected 5 into the water supply. 6 I'm not unfamiliar with those 7 connections. In fact, in my Senate district, we 8 have people who attempt to illegally connect 9 into the electric supply in many instances. 10 Now, the gas supply when they illegally connect 11 into it, they usually have a little mishap. But 12 they illegally connect into the electric supply 13 on many occasions. And this is basically, when 14 you get down to it, a theft of services from 15 someone, and I think that's a problem with this 16 bill, and I don't think we should sanction a 17 theft of services by passing this bill. 18 And if the farmer is having a 19 dialogue with a state agency to resolve the 20 problem, let him continue to dialogue. I don't 21 think we should sanction the services and, in 22 effect, give the farmer an edge in his 23 dialogue. If he is in the civil court system, 6819 1 then he's in the civil court system. And let 2 him stay in the civil court system. Why should 3 we sanction his activities? So I suggest there 4 be a no vote on this bill. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 6 President. On the bill. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Dollinger on the bill. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: This is the 10 reason why we're not good judges. We're good 11 legislators, but we are not particularly good 12 judges when someone asks us to find facts or 13 draw conclusions about what's happening out 14 there in the rest of the world and we've got to 15 adjudicate who's right and who's wrong. 16 If I could, Mr. President, could 17 I ask the sponsor or substitute for the sponsor, 18 do you have any proof that shows that there is a 19 civil action and that this was undertaken in 20 reliance on some claim of right or some 21 settlement of a lawsuit? And if so, could you 22 put the bill aside, lay it aside, or put it on 23 the table for a day to give us some proof of 6820 1 that. 2 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President. 3 I'm advised that counsel has been in touch with 4 the law firm Puresutti and Coniglio, who 5 represents the farmer, and the farmer's name is 6 David Smithgall. I do not have proof in my hand 7 at this point in time that a stipulation has 8 been entered into, but I accept as an officer of 9 the court the representation of the attorney to 10 Senate counsel. 11 I think the point that we and 12 Senator Volker and Assemblyman Reynolds, whose 13 district this is also in, who supports this 14 legislation -- the point they are trying to 15 make, they are not trying to give free water to 16 this particular farmer. We are not trying to 17 adjudicate the matter here in the Senate 18 chamber. What we're attempting to do is take a 19 situation that has already been done, that has 20 already been litigated to some degree and stop a 21 disconnection which would preemptorily end the 22 farmer's access to the waters and probably doom 23 his business. 6821 1 What we're allowing for here is 2 not a permanent deed, but a temporary hiatus so 3 that the parties would have an opportunity to 4 get together, perhaps the farmer seek 5 alternative sources of waters. And, by the way, 6 just for the purposes of how much water is 7 consumed, I'm advised that the farmer's only 8 source of water is not just this pipeline, but 9 that there are minimal water supply wells on the 10 property but not in sufficient quantity to 11 provide sufficient water for the cows. 12 So I think what we're trying to 13 do is give them some breathing time where both 14 parties could possibly amicably settle the 15 dispute. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, I 17 appreciate the observations of the sponsor. 18 What I think might be happening, and I will just 19 offer a guess -- I will offer a guess that the 20 State of New York found out that the water was 21 being taken illegally, and the State of New York 22 has moved for a temporary order to shut off and 23 to disconnect it, to tear it up and to back 6822 1 charge the cost to the farmer who's taking 2 something illegally, and the court has either 3 issued an order requiring that he discontinue 4 taking that water and ordering or permitting the 5 state to remove the connection, and we're going 6 to intervene in that legal dispute and tell the 7 Court that it can't order that, even though this 8 individual is apparently taking the water 9 without the approval of people of this state. 10 While I may have sympathy for the 11 farmer's ability to find other sources of water, 12 he asked, apparently was told no, and then went 13 ahead and did it anyway. And it seems to me we 14 can't countenance that kind of disregard for the 15 power of the people of this state, for the 16 ability of this Legislature to protect the 17 assets of this state including the water that 18 flows through Letchworth Park. 19 I've been in the park a number of 20 times, a beautiful place. This doesn't seem to 21 me to make any sense. I appreciate the 22 sponsor's intent, but we're intervening in a 23 legal proceeding. I don't think there is any 6823 1 basis for it. If somebody is taking something 2 illegally, we should tell him no, you can't do 3 it. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 5 Secretary will read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll.) 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 12 the results when tabulated. 13 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 14 the negative on Calendar Number 1407 are 15 Senators Connor, DeFrancisco, DiCarlo, 16 Dollinger, Galiber, Gold, Jones, Leichter, 17 Oppenheimer, and Solomon. Ayes 48. Nays 10. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 1451, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number 22 6759, an act to amend the State Finance Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6824 1 LaValle, an explanation has been asked for by 2 Senator Gold on Calendar Number 1451. 3 SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President. 4 This legislation establishes incentives to 5 stabilize the school district property tax. We 6 heard earlier this week -- I believe yesterday 7 -- Senator Cook offer a piece of legislation to 8 deal with a problem of grave concern to many of 9 us representing the rural and suburban school 10 districts in this state, whereby property taxes 11 have been escalating despite the fact that we 12 have given to our school districts increasing 13 amounts of state aid. 14 This proposal very specifically 15 amends the Finance Law because it addresses not 16 the educational portion of the budget in the way 17 we address providing services to our youngsters 18 but rather the concern of the taxpayer and the 19 tax rate problem; and so, whereby a school 20 district freezes their tax levy, the state 21 provides under a formula by this legislation 22 incentives for the school district to maintain a 23 stabilized tax rate. 6825 1 I believe that it's in the best 2 interest of all parties by maintaining a stable 3 real property tax rate, because the people in 4 the communities will feel less pressure, will 5 feel more -- much better about supporting a 6 school budget and school programs and I believe 7 reduce some of the tensions that we see mounting 8 in our school districts between taxpayers and 9 people who want to provide good programs for our 10 youngsters. 11 This program would begin with the 12 1995 tax levy and would begin in terms of 13 financing this in our next -- in succeeding 14 budgets. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 16 recognizes Senator Gold. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 18 Mr. President. Would the Senator 19 yield to a question? 20 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 yields. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, you say 6826 1 that this would give some comfort to people in 2 the communities. And what I would like to know 3 is what communities are we talking about? Are 4 we talking about every community in this state? 5 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Does this include 7 the big five? 8 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, it does, 9 Senator. It's a statewide -- as I understand, 10 it's a statewide bill, but the major beneficiary 11 of this proposal would be those school districts 12 that have high tax rates and actually establish 13 a tax rate. 14 Now, the City of New York, for 15 instance, does not have a separate tax rate for 16 school purposes, and so this legislation, by 17 definition in a sense, would exclude those 18 districts, as the City, that do not have a 19 separate tax rate for school purposes. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. All right. 21 Senator, that's what I wanted to clarify. When 22 you say it gives comfort to people in the 23 communities, there is a -- oh, a few million 6827 1 people in the City of New York who don't get any 2 comfort out of this particular bill. Am I 3 correct? 4 SENATOR LAVALLE: That is 5 correct. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. I also 7 understand that there are some people in Buffalo 8 and a few other little places, Rochester, yeah, 9 that also -- and I'm not saying, Senator, that a 10 bill has to apply statewide, but I want to 11 clarify that this does not, as I understand it, 12 apply to every school district. 13 SENATOR LAVALLE: By the 14 definition in the formula - 15 SENATOR GOLD: Okay. 16 SENATOR LAVALLE: -- it would 17 exclude those areas that do not have a real 18 property tax rate for school purposes. That is 19 correct. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Is that Syracuse, 21 too, Jim? Yes. 22 Will the Senator yield to another 23 question? 6828 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator, 2 would you yield to another question from Senator 3 Gold? 4 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, there has 6 been a term floating around here this year with 7 regard to certain pieces of legislation, 8 "maintenance of effort." Now, as I understand 9 it, that term means that there are certain areas 10 in the state where we are mandating that they 11 spend money, not that they save money and cut 12 taxes but that they actually spend money in the 13 schools; and as a result of the maintenance of 14 effort mandate, they might have to increase 15 their taxes. Is that correct? 16 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, as you 17 know, this legislation does not address that 18 issue. I think you are aware that that issue is 19 being discussed at a -- in a separate forum, 20 that more properly looks at revenues that go 21 into cities, and you are talking about more 22 specifically New York City. And that problem 23 you are oversimplifying by attaching that 6829 1 discussion to this issue because it's apples and 2 oranges. It is really an entirely different 3 issue. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 5 yield to a question? 6 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, I will. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Would you 8 yield for another question, Senator? 9 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: He will. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I want to 12 tell you something. There is so much to know 13 around here, I really don't claim to be the 14 expert I should be on everything, but I know 15 school aid formula is very, very complicated, 16 and the way we fund education is complicated. 17 But isn't it fair to say, in the most lay-way 18 words I can think of, that when we talk about 19 "maintenance of effort" for some of the 20 districts, we are basically saying we want to 21 make sure that they put in a certain amount of 22 funding; and when we talk about your bill, we 23 are talking about encouraging them to make 6830 1 certain kinds of cuts and we're going to give 2 them bonuses based upon that? 3 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, we 4 have -- you know, this discussion, we have 5 during the state aid formula. Senator Leichter 6 usually raises certain aspects. And, again, you 7 are looking at a New York City or a city 8 situation, whereby, there is a general budget 9 and, out of the general budget, the city spends 10 monies for school purposes. 11 Here, we are talking about 12 independent school districts, that their sole 13 purpose, the state aid that we send to them goes 14 specifically for the schools along with the 15 property taxes that they raise to receive the 16 revenue from state aid and their property taxes 17 to meet their budgetary needs. It is an 18 entirely different situation than that that 19 people who live within cities face. 20 So you are mixing and matching 21 issues. I am not diminishing the issue that you 22 raise as being an important issue. I know very 23 precisely what you are talking about, but this 6831 1 bill is entirely different. It's an entirely 2 different issue than the one that you raise. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. If 4 the Senator will yield to a question? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator, 6 would you yield again? 7 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, I will. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, those of 9 us who represent areas such as the City of New 10 York understand some of the budget process; and 11 when we use phrases like Stavisky-Goodman, for 12 example, we all remember that there was a time 13 when the Legislature felt very pressed to make 14 sure that the money that we voted for education 15 aid went to education. All right? 16 Now, it may be that under the 17 current system, mayors such as the mayor of the 18 City of New York have to come to this 19 Legislature and have to grab money every place 20 they can get it to put their budgets together, 21 and then we always have this fight as to whether 22 education dollars go to education. 23 But after all of this is talked 6832 1 out, the bottom line of it is that we are 2 talking as a Legislature in terms of mandating 3 that the City of New York and other places have 4 some kind of maintenance of effort because we 5 want to make sure these dollars flow. And if by 6 saying maintenance of effort they have to raise 7 their taxes, real estate or otherwise, then 8 sobeit. 9 But when you get to the rest of 10 the state, we say no, no, no, no. The rest of 11 the state, you know, we got to give them help. 12 We got to give them bonuses. 13 And isn't this really funding 14 them in the educational field, adding in, no 15 matter what you want to label it, additional 16 education monies while other places such as the 17 big five may have to raise taxes? 18 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, I 19 believe not because real property taxes in 20 several parts of this state have reached 21 confiscatory levels. As a matter of public 22 policy, it is driving people out of their 23 residences. It is driving people out of their 6833 1 businesses. And so I believe that in terms of 2 outside of some of our cities, I think 3 communities are at a point of rebellion. 4 Now, the cities -- once again, I 5 go back to the fact that there is a general 6 budget, and that budget funds many, many things, 7 whereby the City Council and the mayor make 8 decisions on how that money is to be spent. 9 That does not, again, I want to repeat, diminish 10 the obligation that they have. And people stood 11 up in this house and in the Assembly to override 12 a governor on Goodman-Stavisky to insure that 13 the dollars that we send for school purposes go 14 for those purposes and that there's not a mixing 15 and matching. 16 And I would say, Senator, this 17 problem happens to the community colleges, where 18 we send aid to our community colleges in the 19 City University and, many times, they do not get 20 the full benefit of those dollars because within 21 the city budget they may move away the dollars. 22 If we send a million dollars in state aid, a 23 million dollars may be withdrawn of city 6834 1 contribution. But I think this is not the forum 2 to discuss the maintenance of effort issue, 3 Senator, as it relates to the purpose of this 4 bill. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 6 On the bill, Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: On the 8 bill, Senator Gold. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 10 Senator LaValle states some truths and then 11 gives us a bill which may not, in effect, be 12 very fair at all. I don't think anybody in the 13 state underestimates how significant real estate 14 taxes are in many parts of the state and how 15 they affect quality of life, how they affect 16 sale of property, how they affect senior 17 citizens in their ability to maintain their 18 property in their retirement, et cetera, et 19 cetera, et cetera. And I know that I was not 20 the only one who heard the Governor talk about 21 the concept of reexamining how we fund school 22 aid. It may be that we have now come to the 23 point where property tax is not the way to fund 6835 1 school aid. It may be that as people get older 2 and people get into retirement they don't want 3 to sell their homes because the taxes on real 4 estate will eat up their pensions and they don't 5 have children in the school. 6 But, Senator LaValle, 7 understanding all of that it's divisive to come 8 here with this bill which tells people in the 9 City of New York and other places that we are 10 not going to help you. Now, we have done a 11 budget, and that budget was negotiated, and we 12 all know how those negotiations are handled when 13 it comes to school aid. They are never fair. 14 The school aid formula has never 15 been fair as long as I've been up here; and if 16 you want to get more money in the City of New 17 York, then we hear about, "This will do some 18 save harmless here," and "This will be a bunch 19 of money there," and the bottom line is the kids 20 are the last ones anybody ever really thinks 21 about. It's all politics. 22 But we finished it for this 23 year. We've got our budget. And now we're 6836 1 talking about planning for the future? Well, if 2 we're planning for the future, Senator LaValle, 3 why don't we plan for the future of kids that 4 are in the City of New York and in Buffalo and 5 Rochester and in Syracuse and in other places 6 also? But we don't do that. 7 I mean this bill flies in the 8 face of the kind of messages that we send down 9 to Senator Maltese's district and Senator 10 Padavan's and Senator DiCarlo's and Senator 11 DeFrancisco and Senator Volker. I mean we tell 12 those Senators that their districts have to do 13 something else. 14 And I don't know. To tell you 15 the truth, I know there's a lot of discipline in 16 the Republican Party, particularly in this 17 house, but I'm going to be fascinated to see the 18 way some of my colleagues on the other side vote 19 on this bill and whether or not you can really 20 go back into your districts and suggest that you 21 did your districts a great favor by voting for a 22 piece of legislation that gives bonuses to every 23 place else in this state except your area while 6837 1 your area is right under the gun and being told 2 that, whether you'd like it or not, you better 3 come up with taxes and you better come up with 4 revenues because you better maintain your 5 effort, and there's no two ways about it. 6 But there are two ways about it, 7 and that's what's wrong with this bill. The 8 bill is divisive, and it shouldn't be. If you 9 want to look to the future, Senator LaValle, 10 that's great. And when you say Senator Leichter 11 usually says this and that, and Senator Galiber, 12 whatever, speaks outs, that's great. But we 13 can't go on with legislation which takes a piece 14 of this, piece of that and makes no sense when 15 viewed at alone. 16 We had a couple of bills reported 17 out of rules in the crime area the other day, 18 and one of them I think was starred, but I mean 19 we as Democrats looked at the Majority as if 20 they had blown their minds. You wanted to make 21 a felony out of something which was a theft of 22 some service and make a violation out of 23 somebody putting in faulty fire alarm equipment 6838 1 which could kill hundreds of people. 2 I mean now, if that was part of 3 one crime bill, you'd never do it. Because it's 4 one part of one crime bill, we would see how 5 everything meshes with each other. The same 6 thing here. If you're telling us that this 7 program makes sense for some of the people in 8 the state and it was part of a program which 9 made sense for the Big Five and took into 10 account what everybody's problems are, that's 11 one thing; but put alone the way it is, Senator 12 LaValle, I know I as a city legislator could not 13 possibly support this. And it would seem to me 14 that there are people on your side of the aisle 15 who I believe would look foolish going back home 16 and saying that for future budgets, or whatever, 17 we voted to set up this process for people, but 18 it isn't our people. 19 I think the bill should be 20 opposed. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Dollinger. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 6839 1 President. Will the sponsor yield for a 2 question. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 LaValle, would you yield to a question from 5 Senator Dollinger? 6 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. 8 Senator, what's the impact of this bill in a 9 school district which has - 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You were 11 ahead of him? 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Do I have the 13 floor, Mr. President? Excuse me. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You have 15 the floor. I'm sorry. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What's the 17 impact of this bill on a school district that 18 has a growing student population? 19 SENATOR LAVALLE: This bill does 20 not deal with state aid. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: No, but my 22 question is as the school district - 23 SENATOR LAVALLE: It doesn't - 6840 1 the bill and the formula relates to tax rates 2 and not to student population. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right, but as 4 the number of pupils increase in a school 5 district, there's a need - 6 SENATOR LAVALLE: This bill does 7 not relate -- if you look at the bill and read 8 the bill, it talks about tax rates and compares 9 tax rates. It does not address the problem of a 10 school district with a growing population. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay, but - 12 Again, through you, Mr. President, if Senator 13 LaValle will continue to yield. If the school 14 population is growing, there is a concomitant 15 increase in the need for teachers, for 16 buildings, for lights, for transportation, all 17 of those things. Those are additional costs 18 that would show up on the property - 19 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- tax levy, 21 would they not? 22 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. You see, 23 Senator, in the formula that we just addressed, 6841 1 we very specifically this year dealt with growth 2 aid outside of the regular formula, so that the 3 needs of the student would be addressed through 4 the state aid formula. 5 This proposal very specifically 6 amends the Finance Law because its purpose and 7 focus is on growing property taxes and how we 8 stabilize that. 9 It is our hope that in each and 10 every session -- and I think we made a 11 significant step in this last session to deal 12 with the growth aid problem and the needs of a 13 school district that have greater problems from 14 one year to the next, and so we hope that we 15 address the student problems. I was very 16 specific in that in my remarks. 17 But what we have failed to 18 address is in too many situations the property 19 tax has continued to escalate, and so we need to 20 look at various methodologies. Senator Cook the 21 other day proposed a methodology to deal with 22 the property tax. I have put forward, as many 23 of my other colleagues, various approaches in 6842 1 trying to be creative to deal with the problem 2 of financing the education of our 3 million 3 students that we presently spend about $22.6 4 billion a year, and that continues to grow. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right. 6 SENATOR LAVALLE: So this 7 addresses specifically the tax rate problem. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right. But 9 again, through you, Mr. President. But under 10 the current formula, we don't cover dollar for 11 dollar for local school districts the additional 12 expenditures necessary in a growing student 13 population. 14 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, this 15 year, we did. We took the growth aid, the 16 growth problem, and we took it outside of the 17 cap within the formula. So that this year in 18 this budget that we have passed, we did 19 recognize the very problem that you have 20 identified. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 22 through you, Mr. President. So I make sure I 23 understand this. In the Town of Greece, for 6843 1 example, the Greece Central School District, 2 which I believe is the eighth largest school 3 district in this state, I represent all of it. 4 Their student population is going to increase by 5 about 800 students. 6 My understanding is that the 7 additional aid, the additional growth aid, from 8 the State of New York which comes to them 9 alleviates a portion of that additional cost but 10 not the total cost of the two new schools 11 that -- the equivalent of two new schools that 12 they are going to have to add. 13 The reason why I make that point 14 is because those additional 800 students even 15 after they get the state aid are going to drive 16 the tax levy up because there are additional 17 people with additional needs that are going to 18 create additional and incremental costs. 19 If that's the case, that growing 20 student population in a suburban school 21 district, they face additional costs, they 22 wouldn't qualify for the treatment under this 23 formula unless they meet the formula 6844 1 guidelines. Correct? 2 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, I 3 gather you now acknowledge that a district like 4 Greece will at least receive growth aid. The 5 last comment is you qualified your remark by 6 saying all of the expenditures related to 7 growth. 8 The state aid formula is broken 9 up in several parts. The part that I talked 10 about, the growth aid, relates to operating 11 expenditures. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right. 13 SENATOR LAVALLE: If they need to 14 provide a building for those 800 students, we 15 then go to the building aid formula that will 16 provide the aid for those students. And then we 17 have a transportation aid formula to provide the 18 aid for them to get to and from school. 19 So it is a rather complex series 20 of formulas that come together to provide the 21 educational needs. But, again, Senator, this 22 bill is outside of addressing the educational 23 need problem. This bill addresses the taxpayer 6845 1 problem that we have. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Correct. I 3 understand that, and I appreciate that. 4 Just one other question, Mr. 5 President. If there is an increase in the 6 teacher salaries that are associated with the 7 school district -- and that would otherwise 8 increase the tax levy, would it not, say there 9 is a 4 percent or a 3 percent raise? 10 Because, as we know, salaries are 11 the largest portion of the school district 12 budget, we could anticipate something like a 13 concomitant 2 to 3 percent raise or some 14 fraction thereof, 85 percent or 80 percent of 15 that. We would anticipate an increase in the 16 tax levy to that amount. 17 How is that process affected by 18 this bill? 19 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, once 20 again, the increases whether they be through 21 teacher salaries or otherwise are addressed by 22 our contribution, by increasing our 23 contribution, state aid to education to the 6846 1 schools. This formula that we passed this year 2 increased the per pupil operating expense 3 ceiling in the formula to address additional 4 needs, whether they be because books went up or 5 because teachers' salaries went up or other 6 employees' salaries went up. That's what state 7 aid to education has primarily funded. When we 8 take apart the per pupil cost, you rightfully 9 have indicated that the majority of that per 10 pupil cost comes from employees' salaries. 11 And so, hopefully, when we 12 increase aid to school districts, we are paying 13 in part for the increase in salaries. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the bill, 15 Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: On the 17 bill, Senator Dollinger. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I appreciate 19 Senator LaValle's attempt to provide a further 20 spur to local school districts to reduce or 21 freeze property taxes. 22 It seems to me that local school 23 districts already have the greatest incentive 6847 1 possible, the same incentive that probably 2 drives this measure and frankly drives a lot of 3 what we do in this chamber is that at least in 4 my experience local school board members are all 5 elected. They are all accountable to their 6 constituents. They're all accountable to their 7 communities, and they would have every incentive 8 currently. Because of their desire to get 9 re-elected and make sure they're doing the 10 public good, they have every incentive to keep 11 the tax rates down as low as they can. 12 My community, the 54th Senate 13 District, has had a wonderful experience with 14 exactly that kind of dynamic in the last three 15 or four years as taxpayer groups have become 16 members of school boards, as we've tried to keep 17 down the property taxes, all of that wonderful 18 democratic interplay that works so well at the 19 school board at the local community level is the 20 greatest incentive we have to keep property 21 taxes down. 22 It seems to me that this bill, 23 one, because it excludes the cities; two, 6848 1 although I understand Senator LaValle's comment 2 about excess aid covering additional expenses, I 3 also think this will have the perhaps unintended 4 consequences of disqualifying districts that are 5 growing rapidly, such as all three of my school 6 districts are; and, lastly, because I like the 7 concept of local control by school boards - 8 this may be a very powerful argument. It should 9 be made to school boards. School boards can 10 control their own budget. They can vote zero 11 tax increases every single year if that's what 12 they think they need to get re-elected, if 13 that's what they think serving the public 14 interest is. 15 My guess is, much as the 16 experience in one of my communities suggests, is 17 that often times even a taxpayer group that gets 18 in and says, "We're going to freeze property 19 taxes," nonetheless -- nonetheless -- faces the 20 prospect that their goal as members of the 21 school board is to provide quality education. 22 And what they do is, they take a fine look at 23 that budget, they take a fine look at their 6849 1 contracts with their teachers or anyone else, 2 and they work hard to minimize expenditures. 3 But in a growing district, it's often difficult 4 for them to qualify under this kind of rigid cap 5 that says you have to freeze or only minimally 6 raise your property taxes. 7 Because it excludes cities, a 8 major portion of which I represent, and I think 9 may have the consequence of influencing 10 disqualifying growing districts, I would vote in 11 the negative. 12 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator 13 Dollinger, before you - 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 LaValle. 16 SENATOR LAVALLE: I just want to 17 indicate that before you vote in the negative on 18 this, what you should know that is that for the 19 Greece School District, you will be denying them 20 $1.6 million in additional aid to address the 21 problem of those taxpayers. So I just hope you 22 realize that when you are voting no on this bill 23 you are denying the people in the Greece School 6850 1 District real property tax relief. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Now, Mr. 3 President, since that's the claim that's been 4 made, could you demonstrate to me how that's the 5 case, Senator? 6 SENATOR LAVALLE: By this 7 formula, Senator. It comes to, I believe, $121 8 per pupil under the formula and the way - 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's, I 10 assume, if they keep their tax rate absolutely 11 flat; correct? 12 SENATOR LAVALLE: If they would 13 qualify under this - 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Have they 15 ever kept their tax rate absolutely flat in the 16 last ten years in the Town of Greece, which 17 continues to grow and continues to have 18 additional - 19 SENATOR LAVALLE: Well, they 20 have -- they would have an opportunity to make a 21 choice in whether the incentives under this 22 legislation would be sufficient to allow them 23 when they set the tax levy in this year to 6851 1 qualify for that aid. 2 So I just tell you that under 3 this formula, your school district -- and I just 4 picked that one; I just happened to look under 5 information I have -- that you will be denying 6 those taxpayers real property tax relief by at 7 least $1-1/2 million. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 9 Senator, that assumes that they are going to 10 keep the tax rate absolutely flat which they 11 have never been able to do because they faced 12 rising student enrollment. 13 SENATOR LAVALLE: Well, all I can 14 tell you is what you, in my judgment, will be 15 denying your taxpayers of the Greece School 16 District. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, I don't 18 think I'm denying them that, Mr. President. I 19 appreciate the colloquy from Senator LaValle. I 20 don't think I am. I think what I'm doing is I'm 21 looking at the reality of what they've got to 22 face, and I don't think the reality shows that 23 it will come true as Senator LaValle, who is 6852 1 looking into a crystal ball that I don't see, 2 suggests that it will. 3 In addition, I'd point out that 4 the city of Rochester, which comprises about 60 5 percent of my Senate district, would not get the 6 opportunity to qualify for a nickel under this. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Galiber. 9 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes. Senator, 10 I don't have the advantage of facing you since 11 I've got this other seat, but, Senator - 12 On the bill, rather than ask any 13 questions. 14 Because any time, in my judgment, 15 that there is some tax relief, there has to be 16 somewhere pushing it's going to cost somebody 17 some money, and I know of your fine work through 18 the years, Senator, with Hostos College and 19 Medgar Evers College, and you are concerned 20 about quality education through this state. 21 But, unfortunately, whatever the formula may be 22 in your jurisdiction, it has to have an overall 23 state educational impact. 6853 1 I can't imagine changing formulas 2 on education unless we deal with the City of New 3 York and the Big Five. We're talking about 4 population growth where historically we have 5 some 37 percent of the students throughout the 6 state. We get something like 35 percent -- 34 7 percent. I think it went up a point this year, 8 but certainly not where there is an equity 9 involved. 10 We talked the other day and I 11 wasn't here, but we were talking about the -- we 12 were beating up on the welfare folks and a lot 13 of subsidies that we talked about, I 14 understand. And school is one of the areas 15 where we have been subsidizing through the years 16 to a large amount of money which is never 17 calculated either in the formulas or when we 18 reach the Big Five. 19 We need the kind of help in our 20 district that you talk about for Nassau and 21 Suffolk. We have another piece of legislation 22 that one of your colleagues from Nassau or 23 Suffolk has suggested that the seniors over the 6854 1 age of 70 be relieved of their responsibility to 2 pay taxes on real property. It has to have some 3 ultimate effect on the formula that you make 4 reference to. 5 Some years ago, we have watched 6 -- at least I have watched through the years 7 that education is one of the big items that we 8 deal with. And when we push more money into 9 education, we find that more and more of that 10 money goes out to Nassau and Suffolk, and I 11 appreciate your political power collectively to 12 accomplish this; however, when we write reports 13 -- and they have been substantiated -- that the 14 superintendents' costs out there, the shrinking 15 classrooms and the cost of high-paid 16 superintendents out there, runs the price of 17 education up, no one pays much attention to that 18 except to say I'm going to take this back home 19 and run on this issue. 20 Senator, even where CUNY and - 21 SUNY and CUNY are concerned. You know this 22 better than anyone. You have been chairman of 23 Higher Education now for a long while. 6855 1 Budgetary time comes around, we increase SUNY, 2 we cut CUNY, which is a symbolic way of doing 3 things for the innercity. 4 You want to freeze income tax in 5 your jurisdiction. We're hurting in New York. 6 There is a connection between maintenance of 7 effort and this, if it's no more than your 8 paying attention as someone who is keenly 9 concerned about education on a higher level, 10 because I'm sure you realize that if we don't 11 get those youngsters up the ladder they will 12 never get into our community colleges. They'll 13 never get into SUNY or CUNY. 14 So to bring this to us and say 15 that this only applies if we level off -- and 16 there are certainly building monies that are in 17 State Education. We have buildings in the City 18 of New York that are overcrowded, asbestos 19 infested, lead paint, all these things, yet we 20 don't take the opportunity when we have it. 21 Certainly we have it this year, as Senator Gold 22 indicated, that the Governor talked seriously 23 about changing formulas this year because his 6856 1 sensitivity and our collective sensitivity is 2 that somebody is not getting their proper share, 3 especially in the big Big Five as we make 4 reference to it. 5 You know in your heart's heart 6 that that's right. We're not getting an 7 equitable share. So as long as you can take it 8 home -- you have been here long enough to be 9 elected over and over again, whether you take 10 this piece of legislation or not. You've done 11 an excellent job, and your constituency knows 12 that, so you should be zooming in, if you will, 13 along with the rest of us here, at least those 14 of us from the City of New York and the others 15 in the five to say, Let's try. Since the 16 Governor's given us this direction this year, 17 let's try to balance out some of the inequities 18 as far as the education formulas are concerned. 19 So, Senator, I'm going to vote 20 against this bill because I think there are 21 options, that there's ways of negotiating out a 22 fair formula, whether we have pockets of money 23 in state education for building purposes, 6857 1 transportation or what. 2 We learned one concept in law 3 school years ago. They still do it. There is 4 no special money. We used to symbolically tie a 5 red ribbon around to separate the money. Money 6 is money. Education money is there; and however 7 you want to use it, we can shift it around and 8 apply it and put it in some of the areas where 9 we are concerned in the Big Five because we're 10 all talking about kids. We're all talking about 11 youngsters. We're talking about crowded 12 classrooms in the City of New York. We're 13 talking about the inability to cut out 14 classrooms, as I mentioned before. 15 So, Senator, I think there is an 16 opportunity, but we always miss them. That if 17 we pass this piece of legislation -- and I think 18 Senator Norman Levy has a bill where he is going 19 to exclude 50-year-olds and somebody else 20 excluded. You're going to wind up -- your tax 21 base is going to have to change because if 22 Senator Levy gets his bill passed and you get 23 your bill passed, somebody is going to pay for 6858 1 this education because you are going to start 2 exempting people. 3 The Governor had the best 4 suggestion. Have a local option, income tax or 5 real property tax. You have a choice. At least 6 if you had that choice, exercised that choice, 7 let the people decide. But it certainly would 8 be much more equitable in terms of the education 9 formulas for the Big Five. I know you are 10 concerned about some of the higher education 11 schools. 12 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, would 13 you yield for one question? 14 SENATOR GALIBER: Sure. 15 SENATOR LAVALLE: Would you 16 indicate the differences the way we finance our 17 schools between New York City and Port Jefferson 18 school district where I live? In other words, 19 what I'm simply saying, do you recognize that 20 there is a difference in the way the revenue is 21 collected and disbursed to meet educational 22 purposes between a city and a district like Port 23 Jefferson? 6859 1 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes, I do. I 2 understand that. I understand also that out in 3 your district the superintendents that I made 4 reference to, the classes are shrinking. The 5 salaries of the superintendents out there are 6 the highest in the State of New York of all 7 education money. Okay? And some folks - 8 taxpayers -- taxpayers from your district have 9 read the report and commented on it and said, 10 Senator, you and Senator Halperin and Senator 11 Mary Ellen Jones, the report that we put out 12 indicated that we got this money floating 13 around, all this humongous out in your education 14 formulas. Yes, there is a big difference, big 15 difference in it, but you have monies that are 16 coming there now that are being misused, and the 17 taxpayers that you are seeking some relief for 18 are the ones who are complaining about the high 19 paid superintendents, the shrinkage of classes, 20 and the misuse of education monies in terms of 21 salaries, and that money is not getting down to 22 the pupils. 23 You come with a piece of 6860 1 legislation and say, "That's not enough. We 2 want some more." We're going to give them some 3 more relief. Looks great in a newsletter. The 4 fact of the matter is that we are suffering from 5 an educational standpoint, the Big Five and the 6 City of New York and to suggest that there's no 7 connection between maintenance of effort and 8 this piece of legislation -- maybe the pigeon 9 holes to pocket the money is different, but the 10 concept is still there. The philosophy is still 11 there. 12 You at the expense of our Big 13 Five, the innercities, are jeopardizing the 14 education of those youngsters who help give some 15 relief in an area where there is money now being 16 spent in education that should not be spent. 17 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, would 18 you yield for one other question? 19 SENATOR GALIBER: Sure. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Galiber, would you yield for one more question 22 from Senator LaValle? 23 SENATOR LAVALLE: Can I ask why 6861 1 when it comes to revenue sharing the enormous 2 amounts of money and the increases, particularly 3 in this budget for New York City, were you not 4 equally as critical of what superintendents in 5 the City of New York in the community school 6 districts make, or whether they are doing the 7 job for the children that are under their care? 8 SENATOR GALIBER: As far as the 9 formulas are concerned, some have suggested the 10 superintendents are being paid higher salaries. 11 That's not so. What they are doing for the 12 youngsters in the City of New York needs a great 13 deal of change. 14 We had a Marchi Commission. The 15 report came out, said, "They are not doing it. 16 Let's change it." We can't get a piece of 17 legislation between both houses, which is not 18 your fault or mine. The best I've seen here out 19 of that entire Marchi Commission, which I served 20 on, one piece of legislation, and I think they 21 suggested increasing the number of school 22 boards. Out of an entire commission, that's all 23 they came up with. Let's increase it from 30, 6862 1 whatever it is. Give them three more. Which is 2 horrible. 3 Senator, we're doing a horrible, 4 horrible job in the City of New York. I made 5 some suggestions on changes, not that it's going 6 to make any difference. I'm not even quite sure 7 whether that will change it. I know what will 8 change, if you sincerely, as someone as involved 9 in education as you are, advocate that we change 10 the formula on a state level so that it will 11 impact on the total population of youngsters of 12 our state. Your voice goes a longer way than 13 mine. If this kind of committment we can get 14 from our total body here, we can assure the 15 future of the youngsters in our state. We can 16 assure that there's going to be some changes 17 that take place. 18 I'm not even concerned about 19 highly paid superintendents. I use that only as 20 a comparison, where we have superintendents who 21 are elected on a political basis through all the 22 horrible things that are happening in our school 23 districts, and how teachers become teachers and 6863 1 how principals become principals. You don't 2 have much to do with that out in your school 3 district. It's a reality. It's horrible in the 4 City of New York. I can't speak for the other 5 Big Four, but the fact of the matter is that we 6 can certainly bring some more money into it. 7 And if we're talking about 8 changing and giving relief in one area, you 9 certainly should be talking about the other part 10 of the state. Greatest opportunity in the 11 world. Let's change the formula, whether it be 12 CUNY and SUNY -- and you know this. Like I said 13 before, it's worth saying one more time before I 14 sit down. 15 Education is probably one of the 16 greatest subsidies that we have for middle class 17 folks. Subsidies, same thing we talked about. 18 We called it welfare the other day. It's 19 another form of subsidy. It applies in the 20 simple category of your concern. We increase 21 SUNY and we cut CUNY, and CUNY represents the 22 City of New York and that's the concept. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6864 1 Stavisky. 2 SENATOR STAVISKY: Will the 3 sponsor of the bill yield for a question? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I'm sure 5 he will. 6 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. 7 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator 8 LaValle, what is your understanding of the term 9 municipal overburden? Are you familiar with the 10 term? 11 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. 12 SENATOR STAVISKY: What is your 13 understanding of the term? 14 SENATOR LAVALLE: Why don't you 15 tell us, Senator. 16 SENATOR STAVISKY: No, I'm asking 17 you. You're the sponsor of this bill. If it 18 were a Stavisky bill, I would gladly yield. But 19 it's a LaValle bill, so I am asking you. What 20 is your understanding of the concept, municipal 21 overburden? 22 SENATOR LAVALLE: We establish a 23 baseline and we say anything beyond that there 6865 1 is an overburden. The municipality is over 2 burdened. 3 SENATOR STAVISKY: Not quite. 4 But thank you very much, Senator. 5 SENATOR LAVALLE: Why did you ask 6 me the question? 7 SENATOR STAVISKY: I thought you 8 would have a more diversified explanation. 9 Municipal overburden, Senator 10 LaValle and my colleagues, refers to the 11 assumption of costs that large cities and 12 sometimes small cities are required to assume in 13 order to provide essential services for their 14 constituents. The net effect is that not only 15 are real property taxes used in the City of New 16 York, in Buffalo, in Rochester, in Syracuse and 17 Yonkers, as well as in small cities, but 18 sometimes they are also required -- in order to 19 meet those needs, those burgeoning needs, they 20 are required to impose an income tax and a local 21 sales tax and a business tax and fees and all 22 kinds of revenue sources that are imposed on the 23 constituents living in those cities, and the 6866 1 cumulative effect can be just as great as the 2 highest real estate tax that is imposed on any 3 school district covered by your legislation. 4 What I'm saying, in effect, 5 Senator LaValle, I wish that you had developed a 6 true statewide bill instead of a narrowly 7 defined, provincial bill that benefits only 8 certain school districts and doesn't take into 9 account that municipal overburden affects city 10 school districts that often are strapped for 11 money and whose constituents and taxpayers make 12 contributions above and beyond the real estate 13 tax which, when these contributions are paid for 14 the support of essential services, are as 15 onerous, Senator LaValle, as onerous as anything 16 that you tried to remedy in your piece of 17 legislation. 18 Senator and my colleagues, let us 19 stop this business of looking out only for our 20 own school districts and begin to look out for 21 the school systems throughout the State of New 22 York in a fair and equitable manner. Let ideas 23 like this, together with ideas for addressing 6867 1 municipal overburden, be dealt with on a 2 bipartisan manner by legislators in the Majority 3 and Minority in both houses of the Legislature, 4 because I tell you that dividing line doesn't 5 mean that all wisdom starts and stops at the 6 aisle and there are things that could be 7 proposed that would make - 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Stavisky, I'm going to beg your indulgence while 10 the stenographer changes her tape. 11 SENATOR STAVISKY: What I am 12 suggesting is an end to the business of looking 13 out for only our own school districts and for 14 getting others that also have pain and are 15 overburdened, and that's what I propose we begin 16 to do here and stop this business of one house 17 bills that do not fairly and equitably deal with 18 multiple educational needs. 19 Senator Marchi has a right to 20 recognize the overburden that is imposed on his 21 constituents, and other legislators in the City 22 of New York and in Rochester and Buffalo and 23 Yonkers and Syracuse have a right to be 6868 1 concerned over the municipal overburden that is 2 imposed on their constituents, and I know 3 Senator Marchi is a fair legislator, and I wish 4 that everyone would follow his example in trying 5 to deal with the total needs and not being 6 provincial and shortsighted and petty in the way 7 that legislation is proposed. 8 If there was a desire to do 9 something like this, do it during the budget 10 negotiations, invite other legislators to join 11 with you. We would never fail to respond to a 12 request for a meeting on school finance because 13 it effects every legislator here in this chamber 14 and in the other house. And that's what I would 15 like to see, a spirit of cooperation, a spirit 16 of mutual assistance, a fair approach, not this 17 kind of help me and forget about others who may 18 have even greater overburden for their 19 taxpayers. 20 And for these reasons, I would 21 suggest that this is not a well-founded bill. 22 This is a special interest bill to benefit some 23 parts of the state and not the rest of the 6869 1 state. 2 In many cases, the rest of the 3 state may have equal problems. There are 4 problems of poor people. There are problems of 5 broken homes. There are problems of limited 6 English proficiency. There are problems of 7 reading skill deficiency. There are problems of 8 children with disabilities. And the largest 9 percentage of these special needs are invariably 10 found in the cities which are excluded from this 11 LaValle bill, and that I'm sure was not your 12 intention. I hope it was simply an oversight. 13 Let us together show that a 14 better bill to help school districts throughout 15 the State of New York could be fashioned on a 16 bipartisan basis. 17 For that reason, I will urge my 18 colleagues to vote in the negative on this bill. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Jones. 21 SENATOR JONES: Yes, on the 22 bill. I had two things, I guess, maybe 23 uppermost in my mind and heart when I came here 6870 1 two years ago; and as all of you know, I came 2 from a lifetime of children and education, and I 3 think I saw two things that had to happen. We 4 had to provide an equal and an adequate 5 education for all the children in our state, but 6 I also knew we had to do something for the 7 property owners because we are overburdening 8 them, and we all know that, in taxes to pay for 9 this education. 10 I helped to spend over $400 11 million yesterday that everyone of us sitting 12 here knows in our heart we don't have, because I 13 thought it was at least worth looking at and 14 discussing, and maybe it would relieve the 15 taxpayers. And I'm willing to support Senator 16 LaValle today even though I agree with my 17 colleagues who are saying that it's not equal 18 and adequate for all the children. 19 I'm probably in a unique position 20 since I represent almost eleven suburban school 21 districts and I represent a portion of the city, 22 so I'm definitely between, as somebody described 23 it yesterday, a rock and a hard place. 6871 1 But I think what that says is 2 we're not doing what we need to do. We've got 3 some pieces out here, but somehow we've got to 4 put these pieces together. I was sitting here 5 today thinking it's almost like I'm operating in 6 a field of dreams. I think we all want 7 something to happen, but we're not getting 8 there. Reality seems to be missing from all the 9 equations. 10 I know Senator LaValle cares 11 about education. I've sat next to him on the 12 Education Committee this year, and I know how he 13 feels about it, and I know Senator Cook does 14 too. But, somehow, we still haven't met the 15 goal of this equal and adequate education for 16 everybody and a real genuine relief for 17 taxpayers. 18 So I'm going to hope that all of 19 these are out here now and I'm going to support 20 them, and I hope somewhere the things will 21 happen that Senator Stavisky just said, that we 22 get together and maybe we do address all these, 23 and hopefully next year we can do the right 6872 1 thing by all the children and at the same time 2 maybe even the right thing for our taxpayers. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 4 the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 6 act shall take effect July 1. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 8 the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Leichter, why do you rise? 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. I would 14 like to explain my vote, Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All 16 right. Senator Leichter to explain his vote. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm sorry that 18 I can't agree with this act of faith on the part 19 of Senator Jones that if we pass enough 20 unrealistic bills that that will lead us to some 21 solution. Not only is this bill unrealistic, 22 it's highly unfair to over 50 percent of the 23 children of the State of New York. 6873 1 And I just marvel at the 2 discipline of the Republican Party to see 3 legislators from my city which is so badly 4 injured by this bill but they will vote for it. 5 I can't believe that. And legislators from 6 other parts of the state, Syracuse and other 7 cities, that are disadvantaged by this bill. 8 But, my friends, there is 9 something else about this bill which I think 10 makes it not only unrealistic but I think 11 deceptive. Nobody mentioned but this bill has a 12 fiscal note to it of $250 million. How is that 13 money going to be raised? I want to relieve 14 taxpayers, and I want to relieve particularly 15 taxpayers of the real estate tax because it's a 16 regressive, burdensome tax. But then you've got 17 to say how you are going to replace that money, 18 and I don't see Senator LaValle doing it. 19 He has picked up the Cook magic 20 wand which is that we can say we'll spend money, 21 we will provide for government services, but we 22 never have to pay for it because we're not 23 engaged in serious legislation. We're engaged 6874 1 in press release legislation. 2 So, Senator Jones, I'm sorry, I 3 don't think that's going to lead us to the 4 solution. 5 Mr. President. I vote in the 6 negative. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Leichter in the negative. 9 Results. 10 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 11 the negative on Calendar Number 1451 are 12 Senators Babbush, Connor, DeFrancisco, 13 Dollinger, Galiber, Gold, Kruger, Leichter, 14 Markowitz, Mendez, Montgomery, Ohrenstein, 15 Onorato, Smith, Solomon and Stavisky. Ayes 42. 16 Nays 16. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That 18 bill is passed. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 20 Can we take up 1105. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 1105. 22 The Secretary will read it. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6875 1 1105, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number 2 7970A, proposing an amendment to the 3 constitution in relation to the use of certain 4 forest preserve land. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 6 Explanation has been asked for. Senator 7 Stafford. 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr. 9 President. As you all remember, with the 10 support of this body, the Assembly and the 11 Governor's office, as a matter of fact when the 12 whole program started for the Olympics our 13 present Governor was Secretary of State, was 14 very involved and helpful. We constructed a 15 biathlon course and that involves skiing and 16 shooting, and there are about 76 miles of trials 17 -- 75 acres, I'm sorry -- 75 acres that the 18 course is presently on. 19 Many of us realize that 20 technically the course really isn't in 21 accordance with the forever wild provision, and 22 we have worked with a number of organizations 23 including the Adirondack Mountain Club, which is 6876 1 supporting this resolution, the Governor's 2 office, the Governor and others, and we will be 3 again putting 75 acres back into the forest 4 preserve, and we will have this course so that 5 we will be able to maintain it as it should be 6 maintained for a world class course. 7 I would say this, and of course 8 this is my area, but I'm very aware that it 9 affects all of our areas of the state. It is 10 really important that we keep up these various 11 venues because people do come in from all areas 12 of the globe, and it's for the good of the areas 13 and it's for the good of the state. 14 So, again, I would ask that this 15 resolution be passed so we can do what the 16 resolution calls for. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 18 Oppenheimer. 19 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Senator 20 yield for a question? 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure. 22 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I think you 23 just said something that I wasn't aware of. Did 6877 1 you say there would be 75 acres of replacement 2 land? 3 SENATOR STAFFORD: At least. 4 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: At least. 5 That is nowhere noted, unless it's been amended 6 subsequently. I see no mention of where that 7 land is and the size of the land. 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: Line 18, 9 Senator. "Lands of equal to or greater than the 10 value of the lands removed from the forest 11 preserve." 12 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: If you 13 would yield for another question? 14 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would 16 you yield for another question, Senator 17 Stafford? 18 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Is it 19 specified what the land is and where it is and 20 the size of it, other than just some general 21 reference? 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: I have a great 23 deal of confidence in this Legislature. And as 6878 1 you notice, it says it will be subject to 2 legislative action, and you certainly have my 3 word that it will be done. I'm sure I can rely 4 upon you supporting that. 5 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: If this is 6 in, and I have no reason to disbelieve the 7 Senator. On the bill. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 9 bill. 10 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I only know 11 that this -- from the memorandums that I have 12 that this is considered to be a disastrous 13 precedent, because we are taking land that is 14 supposed to be forever wild as mentioned by 15 Senator Stafford previously, and that's an 16 illegal use and hardly worthy of a state 17 constitutional amendment. However, I was 18 unaware that there is an exchange of land. I 19 would merely say at this juncture until I find 20 out more specific information that this is one 21 of our few if the only three smoke stakes from 22 the Environmental Planning Lobby, which means 23 that they consider this about as bad as you can 6879 1 get. So unless I have some information 2 otherwise, I would suggest that those of you who 3 care about maintaining the forever wild nature 4 of our Adirondack Park area, those specific 5 areas that are forever wild, that you vote 6 against this and then we will see what develops 7 as far as a swap of land. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 9 the roll on the resolution. 10 (The Secretary called the roll on 11 reconsideration.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 13 the negative on Calendar Number 1105 are 14 Senators Babbush, Connor, Dollinger, Gold, 15 Jones, Kruger, Leichter, Markowitz, Ohrenstein, 16 Onorato, Oppenheimer, Stachowski and Stavisky. 17 Ayes 45. Nays 13. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 19 resolution is adopted. 20 Senator Kruger, why do you rise? 21 SENATOR KRUGER: Mr. President. 22 I ask to be recorded in the negative on Calendar 23 Number 261. 6880 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 261? 2 SENATOR KRUGER: Yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 4 objection. 5 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 7 Connor. 8 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 9 President. I would like unanimous consent to be 10 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 261. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 261, 12 without objection. 13 Regular order. Secretary will 14 read it. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 1454, substituted earlier today, by Member of 17 the Assembly Pordum, Assembly Bill Number 10681, 18 an act to amend the General Municipal Law. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 20 the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 6881 1 the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. Nays 4 1. Senator Galiber recorded in the negative. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 6 bill is passed. 7 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 9 Stavisky. 10 SENATOR STAVISKY: Without 11 objection, may I be recorded in the negative on 12 Calendar 1407. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 1407, 14 Senator Stavisky will be in the negative, 15 without objection. 16 Senator Waldon. 17 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 18 much, Mr. President. Due to other legislative 19 business, I was out of the chamber. On bill 20 Number 1451, I request unanimous consent to be 21 in the negative. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 23 objection, Senator Waldon is in the negative on 6882 1 Calendar 1451. 2 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 3 President. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1457, substituted earlier today, by Member of 6 the Assembly Balboni, Assembly Bill Number 7 10407B, Estates, Powers and Trusts Law. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 9 the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 13 the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 16 Gold. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. If 18 I can explain my vote on this. I found the bill 19 very, very confusing, and I want to thank 20 Assemblyman Balboni, who was able to come over 21 here and give me a really fine explanation, and 22 I vote in the affirmative. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 6883 1 Continue the roll call. 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 4 bill is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 1458, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 8229A, 7 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 9 the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 13 the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 17 bill is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1459, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 20 8255A, an act to amend the Retirement and Social 21 Security Law. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 23 the last section. 6884 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 4 the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 8 bill is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 1460, substituted earlier today. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Excuse me, Mr. 12 President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 14 Gold. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Can we 16 reconsider 1459 the one we just did, please? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hold 18 on. It just went out the door. 19 We got it. The Secretary will 20 call the roll on reconsideration. 21 (The Secretary called the roll on 22 reconsideration.) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 6885 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 2 bill is before the house. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 4 Could we please lay that aside temporarily. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: All 6 right with you, Senator Present? 7 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it 9 aside temporarily. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 12 Waldon. 13 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President. 14 Please suffer an interruption again. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would 16 you take the conversations outside the chamber, 17 please. 18 Senator Waldon, you have the 19 floor. 20 SENATOR WALDON: Yes. I request 21 unanimous consent to be recorded in the 22 negative. I think Calendar Number is 698. Is 23 that the correct one? 6886 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I don't 2 know. 3 SENATOR WALDON: It is 698. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Is that 5 what you want? 698, without objection. 6 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 7 President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: You're 9 welcome. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1460, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly 12 Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 11581B, 13 an act to amend Chapter 147 of the Laws of 1994, 14 amending the General Business Law. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 16 the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 20 the roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll.) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That 6887 1 bill is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 1462, by Senator Lack, Senate Bill Number 8527, 4 in relation to appointment of certain 5 non-judicial officers and employees of the 6 unified court system. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 8 the last system. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 12 the roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 16 bill is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar number 18 1464, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 8653, 19 in relation to making an additional apportion 20 ment of building aid to the Ellenville Central 21 School District. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 23 the last section. There's a home rule message 6888 1 or not? Read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 5 the roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 9 bill is passed. 10 Senator Gold. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 13 Gold. 14 SENATOR GOLD: I asked that 1459 15 be reconsidered. We don't have an objection to 16 it, though. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: May we 18 call up 1459. 19 THE SECRETARY: 1459, by Senator 20 Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 8255-A, an act to 21 amend the Retirement and Social Security Law. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 23 the last section. 6889 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 4 the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 8 bill is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar number 10 1465, by Senator Maltese, Senate Bill Number 11 8677, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic 12 Law. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read 14 the last section. 15 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside 16 for the day. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay 18 that bill aside for the day. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 21 Present. 22 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you 23 recognize Senator Marchi. 6890 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 2 Marchi. 3 SENATOR MARCHI: There is at the 4 desk a privileged resolution, and I request that 5 it be read in its entirety. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 7 Secretary will read Senator Marchi's privileged 8 resolution in its entirety. 9 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 10 Resolution, by Senators Marchi, DiCarlo and 11 Maltese, honoring the late Michael J.Petrides of 12 Staten Island. 13 WHEREAS, this legislative body 14 learned with sadness of the death on June 30th 15 of Michael J. Petrides of Staten Island, 16 educator, engineer, political leader, member of 17 the New York City Board of Education, and key 18 adviser to governmental figures and 19 institutions; 20 Because it is the custom of this 21 legislative body to declare its appreciation for 22 the work of those like Michael J. Petrides who 23 perform outstanding service in the interests of 6891 1 the public -- the interests of the public in New 2 York State; 3 Michael J. Petrides earned the 4 respect and admiration of all who knew him 5 during the course of an illustrious professional 6 and public service career; 7 Mr. Petrides prepared for his 8 professional career by attending and graduating 9 from the City College of New York with a 10 Bachelor's Degree in electrical engineering and 11 from New York University where he earned a 12 Master's Degree in electrical engineering; 13 Mr. Petrides served as a faculty 14 member of the College of Staten Island beginning 15 in 1965 and attained the status of Professor of 16 Engineering Technology and was advanced to the 17 chairmanship of the Department of Electrical 18 Technology at the College of Staten Island in 19 the 1970s; 20 Mr. Petrides' professional tenure 21 also included service as Associate Dean of the 22 faculty of CSI from 1977 to 1984. During that 23 time, he developed many educational and training 6892 1 programs with public agencies and unions 2 including the New York City schools and the 3 United Federation of Teachers; 4 Mr. Petrides won community- and 5 Citywide esteem when, as Dean of Administration 6 for the College of Staten Island from 1985 to 7 1990, he produced plans for a new consolidated 8 campus for the College of Staten Island, a 9 capital project of more than 400 million; 10 Mr. Petrides also served as a 11 senior executive officer overseeing ten of the 12 college's support departments including the 13 offices of financial aid facilities, 14 institutional research, the registrar and the 15 computer center; 16 Mr. Petrides made signal 17 contributions to the public schools of New York 18 City in his service as a member of the City 19 Board of Education, to which he was appointed by 20 Borough President Guy Molinari for a four-year 21 term beginning July 1, 1990 and also as a member 22 of the Staten Island Community School Board, to 23 which he was elected in 1973 and re-elected in 6893 1 1975. During that tenure he served as Community 2 School Board chairman in 1974; 3 Mr. Petrides took an additional 4 public service duties -- took on additional 5 public service duties in January of 1994 when 6 Mayor Rudolph Giuliani appointed him as special 7 adviser to the mayor, an unsalaried position; 8 Michael Petrides added expertise 9 and sage counsel to the work of the New York 10 State Legislature's Temporary Commission on New 11 York City Schools Governance, to which he was 12 appointed in September 1989; 13 Mr. Petrides performed valuable 14 service as a member of the Education 15 Subcommittee of the Staten Island Charter 16 Commission, the state panel assigned to explore 17 possible secession of Staten Island from New 18 York City; 19 Mr. Petrides' wide ranging 20 service also included the vice-chairmanship of 21 the New York City Districting Commission from 22 1990 to 1991 and as an expert consultant to the 23 state Supreme Court-appointed Congressional 6894 1 Reapportionment Panel; 2 Michael Petrides also won respect 3 and praise for his involvement in the political 4 life of his community and city as witness his 5 effective service as campaign manager for the 6 elections and reelections of Staten Island 7 Borough President Guy V. Molinari and for 8 Congresswoman Susan Molinari, and for the 9 campaigns of Rudolph Giuliani for Mayor of New 10 York in 1989 and 1993; 11 Mr. Petrides earned acclaim and 12 respect for his many contributions to the public 13 advancement, but none more notable than his 14 efforts to restore cohesion and moral authority 15 to the City's educational system; 16 Mr. Petrides was also known for 17 his many services to charitable and civic 18 endeavors; 19 Mr. Petrides' passing removes 20 from the public scene an individual and leader 21 of extraordinary ability and character who 22 earned the respect and esteem of all who knew 23 him; 6895 1 Because it is the custom of this 2 legislative body to pay homage to such 3 individuals; 4 NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED 5 that this legislative body pause in its 6 deliberations and voice its admiration and 7 respect for Michael Petrides and his enviable 8 record of accomplishments; and 9 BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that a 10 copy of this resolution, suitably engrossed, be 11 conveyed to Mrs. Petrides and the other members 12 of the Petrides family. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 14 resolution, Senator Marchi. 15 SENATOR MARCHI: Mr. President, 16 it certainly was not in the fullness of time. 17 Michael Petrides was 53 years of age and, for a 18 person as vital as he was and uniquely gifted in 19 so many different areas and for the distinctive 20 contributions that he consistently made to the 21 people of my community and the people of this 22 City and state, we certainly extend our sympathy 23 and condolences to his family. 6896 1 Senator Galiber and I both worked 2 with Mike Petrides in our school study 3 proceedings, and he indicated to me that he 4 would like to be included on as a sponsor. So 5 we miss his passing and -- and extend to his 6 family respect and affection which he certainly 7 earned in great measure in his brief but 8 brilliant period of service and living in the 9 community of Staten Island and the city of New 10 York. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 12 DiCarlo. 13 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 14 I also rise to mourn the death of Mike 15 Petrides. I've known Mike -- I knew Mike for a 16 number of years, and besides the fact that he 17 was a valued member of the Board of Education in 18 the city of New York, I remember Mike as 19 probably one of the finest political minds that 20 I have ever encountered. Sometimes we were on 21 opposite ends, but most of the time we were 22 together. He was a fine man and he will be 23 missed. 6897 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 2 Maltese on the resolution. 3 SENATOR MALTESE: Mike Petrides, 4 I think, showed especially in the last few 5 months the type of human being he is by -- or he 6 was by suffering through in this last terrible 7 period and, at the same time, constantly 8 reassuring his friends, his wife, his children, 9 his family. 10 I think what he has done for not 11 only Staten Island but the City and the state 12 will remain with us far, far into the future. 13 In Staten Island he was a friend to many of the 14 people not only in public office, being so close 15 to the Borough President and the Congresswoman 16 and so many -- so many other close friends, but 17 also at the same time friendly with so many of 18 the students during his tenure at the College of 19 Staten Island, and always available at any hour 20 of the day or night for a telephone call, a 21 communication, a consultation on politics. He 22 truly loved politics and, as Senator DiCarlo has 23 indicated, as Senator John Marchi has indicated, 6898 1 he was a master of it. 2 He was a family man. He loved 3 his family and made certain that he spent a 4 great deal of time with them. He faced his - 5 his end, his untimely end, very, very bravely. 6 He was a good friend to all of us, and I and 7 many others will miss him a great deal. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the 9 resolution, all in favor say aye. 10 (Response of "Aye.") 11 Those opposed nay. 12 (There was no response. ) 13 The resolution is adopted. 14 Senator Present, what's your 15 pleasure? 16 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 17 I move that we adopt the Resolution Calendar. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: All in 19 favor of adopting the Resolution Calendar say 20 aye. 21 SENATOR GOLD: One second, sir. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 23 Gold. 6899 1 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on. You want 2 to open one of them up, Senator? 3 SENATOR DiCARLO: Yes, Mr. 4 President. I have two resolutions at the desk. 5 I ask the titles be read and they be opened up 6 to the membership, 4191 and 4192. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Can we 8 adopt the Resolution Calendar first? We're on 9 that adoption. Just a moment. We'll read the 10 titles to Senator DiCarlo's resolutions. 11 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 12 Resolution 4191, by Senators DiCarlo and Larkin, 13 commemorating the 50th Anniversary of the 14 retaking of the Philippine Islands by Allied 15 forces and the landing at Leyte Province by 16 General Douglas MacArthur October 20th, 1994. 17 Also Legislative Resolution 18 Number 4193, by Senator DiCarlo, honoring New 19 York State's veterans on November 11, 1994, 20 Veterans Day. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: All in 22 favor of adopting the resolutions. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I 6900 1 assume those are the two that we'll have 2 everybody on unless they indicate otherwise. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That's 4 up to the Acting Majority Leader. 5 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 6 following past practices, everyone will be on 7 except those who decline. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 9 objection. If you have an objection to the 10 resolution, please notify the desk. Otherwise 11 your name will be on it. 12 All in favor of the resolution 13 say aye. 14 (Response of "Aye.") 15 Opposed nay. 16 (There was no response.) 17 The resolutions are adopted. 18 Now, on the Resolution Calendar, 19 all in favor of adopting the Resolution Calendar 20 please say aye. 21 (Response of "Aye.") 22 Those opposed no. 23 SENATOR GOLD: No. 6901 1 The Resolution Calendar is 2 adopted. 3 SENATOR SEWARD: Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 5 Present. 6 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 7 do we have any housekeeping? Let's take care of 8 it. Following that, we'll stand at ease. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 10 Seward. I think we have a housekeeper. 11 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes, Mr. 12 President. I would inquire of the clerk how I 13 was reported as voting on Calendar Number 1435. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: You 15 were recorded in the affirmative -- in the 16 negative. In the negative, I'm sorry. 17 SENATOR SEWARD: I would ask to 18 be recorded in the affirmative on that bill. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without 20 objection, you will be recorded in the 21 affirmative. Are there any other motions or 22 housekeeping on the floor? 23 If you could wait just a moment, 6902 1 Senator Present, we have a motion that is coming 2 down, from where I don't know. 3 SENATOR PRESENT: Then we'll be 4 at ease. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: From 6 Senate desk operations. 7 Senator Daly for a motion that 8 has arrived. 9 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, I 10 wish to call up my bill, Print Number 7884, 11 recalled from the Assembly which is now at the 12 desk. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 14 Secretary will read it. 15 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Daly, 16 Senate Bill Number 7884-A, an act to authorize 17 the legislative body of the county of Niagara to 18 permit payment of county and municipal taxes. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 20 Daly. 21 SENATOR DALY: I now move to 22 reconsider the vote by which the bill passed 23 this house. 6903 1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call 2 the roll on reconsideration. 3 (The Secretary called the roll on 4 reconsideration.) 5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Bill is 6 before the house. Senator Daly. 7 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, I 8 now move to discharge from the Committee on 9 Rules, Assembly Print 9588-A, and substitute it 10 for my identical bill. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 12 Substitution is ordered. Do you have any 13 amendments to that? 14 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, I 15 now offer the following amendments. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 17 Amendments are received, bill will retain its 18 place. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Is that the 20 amendment we were waiting for? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That's 22 the amendment we were waiting for. 23 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. Cornell, do 6904 1 you have another motion? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We have 3 a procedural snag here. 4 SENATOR PRESENT: Let's unsnag 5 it. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That 7 bill is restored to third reading, without 8 objection. 9 Senator Present. 10 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. Cornell, do 11 you have something you need? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 13 Senate will stand easy for just a few seconds. 14 The Senate is going to stand at 15 ease for just a few minutes. 16 (The Senate stood at ease from 17 5:16 to 5:19 p.m.) 18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 19 Present. 20 SENATOR PRESENT: I believe 21 Senator Montgomery has something she would like 22 to take care of. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator 6905 1 Montgomery. 2 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you, 3 Mr. President. 4 I'd like unanimous consent to be 5 in the negative on 1105. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 1105, 7 Senator Montgomery will be in the negative 8 without objection. 9 Senator Goodman. 10 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President, 11 may I please be in the negative on Calendar 12 Number 1105? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 1105, 14 Senator Goodman will be in the negative without 15 objection. 16 SENATOR LEVY: Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes. 18 SENATOR LEVY: Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hold 20 on. Senator Levy. 21 SENATOR LEVY: Yes. There will 22 be a meeting of the Transportation Committee in 23 Room 124 at 5:45 to consider the nomination of 6906 1 Peter Kalikow to be a member of the Metropolitan 2 Transportation Authority. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The 4 Transportation Committee will be meeting in Room 5 124 of the Capitol at 5:45 for the purpose of a 6 confirmation hearing. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Is he appearing? 8 SENATOR LEVY: Yes. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 10 will come to order. The Chair recognizes 11 Senator Present. 12 SENATOR PRESENT: Can we call up 13 Calendar 890. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call up 15 Calendar Number 890, which is not on the active 16 list. Ask the Secretary to read. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 -- on page 20, Calendar Number 890, by Senator 19 Daly, Senate Bill Number 7511-A, an act relating 20 to constituting Chapter 34 of the Consolidated 21 Laws and to amend the Partnership Law, the 22 Business Corporation Law, the Arts and Cultural 23 Affairs Law and the Tax Law and the General City 6907 1 Law and the Administrative Code of the city of 2 New York. 3 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Present. 6 SENATOR PRESENT: Is there a 7 message of necessity at the desk on this bill? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I'm 9 informed by the Secretary that there is a 10 message of necessity at the desk. 11 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 12 I move we accept the message. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 motion is to accept the message of necessity. 15 All those in favor, signify by saying aye. 16 (Response of "Aye.") 17 Opposed nay. 18 (There was no response. ) 19 The ayes have it. The message of 20 necessity is accepted. Secretary will read the 21 last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 76. This 23 act shall take effect immediately. 6908 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 2 roll. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation, 4 please. 5 SENATOR DALY: May I explain my 6 vote, or explanation? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Daly to explain the bill. 9 SENATOR DALY: This bill is 10 probably the most important bill to come out of 11 the Corporations Committee this year or in 12 several years. 13 It allows the formation of - 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Daly, excuse me for just one moment. There's a 16 little noise in the chamber. We're having a 17 difficult time here transcribing what's to be 18 said, so we ask the members to take their 19 places, staffs to take their places and for any 20 conversations that are being held in the back of 21 the chambers, would ask the members to either 22 take those conversations outside or the staff to 23 take them outside. 6909 1 Senator Daly. 2 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, 3 this bill has as its primary purpose the es 4 tablishment of two new business entities in New 5 York State which, when formed and functioning, 6 will make New York State much more attractive to 7 business, for a business, in which to organize. 8 The two entities are called, one, 9 the limited liability company and the second is 10 a limited liability partnership. These 11 companies have the tax attributes of a 12 partnership, the single taxation, while they 13 contain also the liability benefits of a 14 corporation. 15 This has become a very popular 16 structure for the organization of new business 17 in this country. They began back in 1978 in 18 Wyoming and truly came into their own in the 19 late '80s with the tax reform measures that 20 occurred in Washington at that time, and with 21 the IRS interpreting those laws to allow a 22 company to form which, as I said, as a limited 23 liability company can add the tax benefits of a 6910 1 single taxation and the tax -- I should say the 2 liability benefits of a corporation. 3 Because of this, LLCs have been 4 formed in over 44 states already, and it's very 5 important that New York State join with that 6 growing list. I would point out that the 7 primary benefit from this -- from this type of 8 business entity is the attraction into New York 9 and particularly New York City, and I want to 10 point this out to my New York City colleagues 11 because I think it's important, that they 12 realize that this new kind of business entity is 13 going to be very, very advantageous to the 14 City. 15 I know that New York City is on a 16 -- is attempting to add to its reputation as 17 the international capital of the world, and 18 foreign corporations like this type of business 19 entity. They're used to this type of business 20 entity in the nations in which -- the other 21 nations in which they do business, and I think 22 you'll find that, as foreign corporations come 23 over into New York City, the fact that we have 6911 1 -- we allow them in New York State to form as 2 limited liability companies will be an advantage 3 to the City in attracting foreign companies. 4 As far as the fiscal impact, we 5 do have a -- a fee which has been agreed upon 6 with the Assembly and the Governor and the 7 Senate of $50 for a partner, per member in a 8 limited liability company, and for partner in a 9 limited liability partnership with a $10,000 cap 10 which would be -- which would mean that a 11 partnership or a company would have more than - 12 if they had more than 200 partners or members, 13 that they would be capped at $10,000. 14 Thank you, Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 16 any other member wishing to speak on the bill? 17 Secretary will read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 76. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, may 6912 1 I explain my vote. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Daly to explain his vote. 4 SENATOR DALY: I would like to 5 point out that we've been working on this for 6 three years and certainly my counsel, Richard 7 Runes, has spent a great deal of time in putting 8 this together and, in his particular case, I 9 would like to recognize his efforts. 10 I vote yes. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Daly in the affirmative. Announce the results. 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 15 is passed. 16 The Chair recognizes Senator 17 Present. 18 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 19 can we continue to stand at ease. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 Senate will continue to stand at ease. 22 (The Senate stood at ease from 23 5:58 to 6:30 p.m.) 6913 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Senate will come to order. 3 The Chair recognizes Senator 4 Present. 5 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 6 there will be an immediate meeting of the Rules 7 Committee in Room 332, an immediate meeting of 8 the Rules Committee in Room 332. The Senate 9 will continue to stand at ease. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: For those 11 who didn't hear, there will be an immediate 12 meeting of the Rules Committee in the Majority 13 Conference Room, Room 332. 14 The Chair recognizes Senator 15 LaValle. 16 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, Mr. 17 President. If I can have unanimous consent to 18 be recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 19 1337, Senate Print Number 6851-A. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 21 objection, Senator LaValle will be recorded in 22 the negative on Calendar Number 1337. 23 The Senate will stand at ease. 6914 1 (The Senate stood at ease from 2 6:31 to 7:27 p.m.) 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Senate will come to order. 5 The Chair recognizes Senator 6 Present. 7 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 8 I'm going to call an immediate conference of the 9 Majority in Room 332 and we will now receive the 10 report of the Rules Committee. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 12 will be an immediate meeting of the Majority in 13 the Majority Conference Room, Room 332. 14 The Chair recognizes Senator 15 Mendez. 16 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Mr. 17 President. 18 There will be an immediate 19 conference of the Minority. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Immediate 21 conference of the Minority in the Minority 22 Conference Room. 23 We'll return to reports of 6915 1 standing committees, ask the Secretary to read. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marino, 3 from the Committee on Rules, reports the 4 following bills directly for third reading: 5 Senate Bill Number 113-A, by 6 Senator Montgomery, city of New York to reconvey 7 its interests in certain real property; 8 1196-A, by Senator Levy, 9 establish a Temporary State Commission on Real 10 Property Taxation; 11 1226-B, by Senator Goodman, 12 Administrative Code of the city of New York; 13 1304, by Senator Levy, restore 14 funds to school districts; 15 2763-A, by Senator Larkin, 16 Administrative Code of the city of New York; 17 3330, by Senator Waldon, an act 18 to amend the Social Services Law; 19 5145-A, by Senator Maltese, 20 Executive Law; 21 6616-B, by Senator Seward, city 22 of Oneonta to discontinue the use and sell 23 certain park lands; 6916 1 6704-A, by Senator Libous, the 2 city of New York to reconvey its interests in 3 certain lands; 4 6878, by Senator Johnson, Local 5 Finance Law; 6 7117, by Senator Present, County 7 Law; 8 7159-A, by Senator Skelos, 9 providing for retirement credits for Lawrence 10 Bergman; 11 7162, by Senator Bruno, Public 12 Authorities Law; 13 7197-A, by Senator Velella, 14 Education Law; 15 7212-A, by Senator Bruno, 16 Economic Development Law; 17 7245, by Senator Marino, 18 proposing an amendment to the Constitution; 19 7413, by Senator Smith, city of 20 New York to reconvey its interest in certain 21 real property; 22 7650-A, by Senator DeFrancisco, 23 Department of Social Services to contract for 6917 1 chronic care management; 2 7700-A, by Senator Present, 3 General Municipal Law; 4 7733-A, by Senator Stafford, 5 State Finance Law; 6 7802-A, by Senator -- by Senator 7 Tully, an act to amend the Public Health Law; 8 7863, by Senator Spano, an act to 9 amend the Labor Law; 10 7904-A, by Senator Bruno, Labor 11 Law; 12 8014-A, by Senator Spano, Civil 13 Service Law; 14 8071-B, by Senator Skelos, an act 15 to amend the Insurance Law; 16 8074-A by Senator Larkin, Real 17 Property Tax Law; 18 8151-A, by Senator Skelos, Public 19 Authorities Law; 20 8161-A, by Senator Larkin, Local 21 Finance Law; 22 8187-D, by Senator Lack, an act 23 to amend the Penal Law; 6918 1 8218-B, by Senator Nolan, an act 2 to amend the Tax Law; 3 8233-A, by Senator Skelos, town 4 of Hempstead to lease certain lands; 5 8237, by Senator Tully, Executive 6 Law; 7 8314-A, by Senator LaValle, 8 Social Services Law; 9 8329-A, by Senator Volker, 10 Criminal Procedure Law; 11 8374-A, by Senator Wright, 12 computation of the indirect component of the 13 basic reimbursement rate received by Mercy 14 Hospital; 15 8395, by Senator Tully, Public 16 Health Law; 17 8401, by Senator Daly, Executive 18 Law; 19 8420-A, by Senator Velella, 20 Retirement and Social Security Law; 21 8560-A, by Senator Larkin, Real 22 Property Tax Law; 23 8569-A, by Senator Velella, 6919 1 Insurance Law; 2 8618, by Senator DiCarlo, 3 Education Law; 4 8631, by Senator Wright, Labor 5 Law; 6 8632-A, by Senator Seward, Public 7 Service Law; 8 8650, by Senator Spano, Criminal 9 Procedure Law; 10 8671, by Senator Stafford, State 11 Finance Law; 12 8683, by Senator Cook, Judiciary 13 Law; 14 8686, by Senator Bruno, Civil 15 Service Law; 16 8696, by Senator Stafford, amends 17 Chapter 656 -- 656 of the Laws of 1993; 18 8705, by Senator Lack, an act to 19 amend Chapter 502 of the Laws of 1992; 20 8710, by the Committee on Rules, 21 grant Patricia Schuster retroactive membership 22 in the Teachers Retirement System; 23 8712, by Senator Present, an act 6920 1 to amend the Town Law; 2 8715, by Senator Maltese, an act 3 to amend the Tax Law; 4 8725, by Senator Levy, Public 5 Buildings Law; 6 8727, by the Committee on Rules, 7 authorizing the town of Greece to discontinue 8 the use of a portion of a road; 9 8735, by the Committee on Rules, 10 Administrative Code of the city of New York; 11 8737, by the Committee on Rules, 12 Real Property Tax Law; 13 8741, by Senator Babbush, 14 Commissioner of General Services to sell certain 15 lands; 16 8743, by Senator Nozzolio, amends 17 Chapter 615 of the Laws of 1992; 18 8764, by Senator Seward, State 19 Finance Law; 20 8769-A, by Senator Bruno, General 21 Municipal Law; 22 8773, by Senator Cook, 23 Commissioner of Health to identify certain 6921 1 unresolved early intervention programs; 2 8777, by Senator Volker, 3 providing a retirement incentive for the city of 4 Buffalo; 5 8839, by the Committee on Rules, 6 State Finance Law; 7 7729, by Senator Markowitz, 8 authorizing the city of New York to reconvey its 9 interest in certain real property; 10 All bills reported directly for 11 third reading. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All bills 13 are reported directly to third reading. 14 A reminder that all members of 15 the Majority should report immediately to the 16 Majority Conference Room for a Majority 17 conference. All members of the Minority should 18 report immediately to the Minority Conference 19 Room for a Minority conference. 20 The Senate will stand at ease. 21 (The Senate stood at ease from 22 7:50 to 8:21 p.m.) 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 6922 1 will come to order. 2 The chair recognizes Senator 3 Present. 4 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 5 I think we got a little housekeeping on the 6 calendar. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We've got 8 a few motions. Recognize Senator DiCarlo. 9 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 10 on behalf of Senator Libous, on page 18, I offer 11 the following amendments to Calendar 856, Senate 12 Print 7586-A, and ask that said bill retain its 13 place on Third Reading Calendar. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 15 Amendments received and adopted; the bill will 16 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 17 Senator DiCarlo. 18 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 19 I offer the following amendments to Calendar 20 Number 646, Senate Print 6579-C, and ask that 21 said bill retain its place, for Senator 22 DeFrancisco. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 6923 1 Amendments received and adopted; bill will 2 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 3 Senator DiCarlo. 4 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 5 on behalf of Senator Levy, please place a 6 sponsor's star on Calendar 1028. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: A 8 sponsor's star is placed on Calendar Number 9 1028. 10 The Chair recognizes Senator 11 Present. 12 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 13 the Senate will stand in recess until 11:00 p.m. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 Senate stands in recess until 11:00 p.m. this 16 evening. 17 (The Senate stood in recess from 18 8:23 p.m. until 5:17 a.m., July 1, 1994.) 19 SENATOR NANULA: Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: Senator 21 Nanula. 22 SENATOR NANULA: I'd like 23 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative 6924 1 on Calendar Numbers 1105, 1443, 261 and 1451. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT VALELLA: 3 Without objection, so ordered. 4 Senator Paterson. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 6 with unanimous consent of whoever is still here, 7 I'd like to be recorded in the negative on 8 Calendars 1105, 261, 1440, 1451 and 1407. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: 10 Without objection. 11 Senator Stafford. 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you. 13 Could I, on behalf of Senator Levy, please 14 remove the sponsor's star on Calendar Number 15 1028. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: Star 17 is removed. 18 SENATOR STAFFORD: On behalf of 19 Senator Saland, please remove a sponsor's star 20 on Calendar 1414. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: Star 22 is removed. 23 Senator Tully. 6925 1 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you, Mr. 2 President. 3 I wish to call up my bill, Print 4 Number 1520-A, recalled from the Assembly which 5 is now at the desk. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: 7 Secretary will read. 8 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 9 Goodman, Senate Bill 1520-A, an act to amend the 10 Tax Law. 11 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, I 12 now move to reconsider the vote by which this 13 bill was passed. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: Call 15 the roll on reconsideration. 16 (The Secretary called the roll on 17 reconsideration.) 18 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, on 19 behalf of Senator Goodman, I now offer the 20 following amendments. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: 22 Amendments received. 23 Senator Tully. 6926 1 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, on 2 page number 9, I offer the following amendments 3 to Calendar Number 478, Senate Print 5881-C, and 4 ask that said bill retain its place on the Third 5 Reading Calendar. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: 7 Amendments received. 8 SENATOR TULLY: And that was done 9 on behalf of a wonderful Senator named Saland. 10 On behalf of Senator LaValle, Mr. 11 President, on a page number to be determined, I 12 offer the following amendments to Calendar 13 Number 1502, Senate Print Number 8314-A, and ask 14 that said bill retain its place on the Third 15 Reading Calendar. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: 17 Amendments received. 18 Senator Tully. 19 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, on 20 a page to be determined, I offer the following 21 amendments to Calendar Number 1472, Senate Print 22 Number 1226-B, and ask that said bill retain its 23 place on the Third Reading Calendar on behalf of 6927 1 Senator Goodman. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: 3 Amendments received. 4 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 5 can we come to messages from the Assembly. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: The 7 Chair hands down a message from the Assembly. 8 Secretary will read. 9 THE SECRETARY: The Assembly has 10 sent to the Senate Assembly Bill Number 11973, 11 by the Assembly Committee on Rules, an act to 12 amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 13 continuing the purpose and extending the 14 existence of the Medical Malpractice Insurance 15 Association. 16 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: Senator 18 Present. 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Senator Gold? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: The 21 bill is advanced to third reading. 22 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 23 is there a message of necessity at the desk? 6928 1 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: There 2 is a message of necessity. 3 SENATOR PRESENT: I move we 4 accept the message. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: All 6 those in favor of receiving the message, say 7 aye. 8 (Response of "Aye.") 9 Opposed nay. 10 (There was no response.) 11 The message is accepted. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: Senator 14 Gold. 15 SENATOR GOLD: I know it's late 16 and it may have been my ears, but I want to make 17 sure this is 11703-A, is that correct? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: That's 19 correct, Senator. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 6929 1 act shall take effect July 1. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: Call 3 the roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: The 7 bill is passed. 8 Senator Present. 9 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 10 there being no further business, I move that we 11 adjourn until noon today. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT VELELLA: The 13 Senate stands in recess until noon today, 14 adjourned. 15 (Whereupon at 5:31 a.m., July 1, 16 1994, the Senate adjourned. ) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23