Monday, January 30, 1995

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 January 30, 1995 11 3:03 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY, President 19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 20 21 22 23 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will 3 come to order. Would everyone please rise and 4 repeat with me the Pledge of Allegiance. 5 (The assemblage repeated the 6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 7 The invocation today will be 8 given by our guest, Dr. Evelyn Ross John of the 9 New Life Center of Truth in Brooklyn, New York. 10 DR. JOHN: With the rising of 11 God's yearly presence and yearly pull in our 12 midst, we ask to take complete control of what 13 is being done this day. 14 Loving Father/Mother God, we give 15 Thee thanks for this beautiful day. We give 16 Thee thanks for these people here of this Senate 17 who have come to dedicate their lives to 18 building a better and a more beautiful nation. 19 We ask You now, our God, that you take complete 20 control of their mind, their body and all their 21 affairs. We ask, dear Father, that You have 22 them to focus on that goal so that whatever they 23 do, they will do it for the good of the nation 1 and they will help people and build people and 2 relive the life that we are all accustomed to. 3 O Father, take complete control of this Senate 4 right now. Bless every sound, every word; bless 5 every message; bless every conviction that is 6 made this day. See that we are dedicated, God, 7 in Your presence so that we will work for the 8 good of this great nation and we will know that 9 it will work for the highest good of all the 10 people everywhere upon this great earth. So we 11 ask You, dear God, to take complete control but 12 we ask it in Your other name, but through the 13 name and the power of Jesus Christ. 14 Thank you. 15 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you. 16 The Secretary will read the 17 Journal, please. 18 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 19 Friday, January 27th. The Senate met pursuant 20 to adjournment, Senator Bruno in the Chair. The 21 Journal of Thursday, January 26th, was read and 22 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 23 THE PRESIDENT: Without 1 objection, the Journal stands approved as read. 2 Presentation of petitions. 3 Messages from the Assembly. 4 Messages from the Governor. 5 Reports of standing committees. 6 The Secretary will read. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella, 8 from the Committee on Insurance, reports the 9 following two bills directly for third reading: 10 Senate Bill Number 18, by Senator 11 Velella, an act to amend the Insurance Law, in 12 relation to allowing insurers to make available 13 multi-tier program. 14 Also Senate Bill Number 19, by 15 Senator Velella, an act to amend the Insurance 16 Law, in relation to certain insurance premium 17 reductions. 18 Also Senate Bill Number 22, by 19 Senator Velella and others, an act to amend the 20 Insurance Law, in relation to the reduction of 21 homeowners insurance rates in certain 22 instances. 23 All bills reported directly for 1 third reading. 2 THE PRESIDENT: Without 3 objection, all bills direct to third reading. 4 Report of select committees. 5 Communications and reports from 6 state officers. 7 Motions and resolutions. 8 Oh, Senator DiCarlo, I'm sorry. 9 SENATOR DiCARLO: Yes, Madam 10 President. On behalf of Senator Holland, on 11 page 4, I offer the following amendments to 12 Calendar Number 13, Senate Print 20, and ask 13 that said bill retain its place, Third Reading 14 Calendar. 15 THE PRESIDENT: So ordered. 16 Senator Bruno. 17 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 18 I call a meeting of Rules immediately off the 19 floor in Room 332. 20 THE PRESIDENT: There will be an 21 immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in Room 22 332. 23 Oh, Senator Wright, sir. 1 SENATOR WRIGHT: Madam President, 2 I move that the following bills be discharged 3 from their respective committees and be 4 recommended with instructions to strike the 5 enacting clause: Senate Print Numbers 126, 127, 6 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134 and 135. 7 THE PRESIDENT: The bills are 8 recommitted, the enacting clauses stricken. 9 Senator Bruno? Oh, Senator Kuhl, 10 sorry. 11 SENATOR KUHL: Madam President, 12 would you place a sponsor's star on Calendar 13 Number 4, Senate Print 516, please. 14 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 15 starred. 16 SENATOR KUHL: Thank you. 17 Senator Bruno. 18 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 19 I would like to take up the non-controversial 20 reading of the calendar at this time. 21 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 22 will read. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 1 5, by Senator Lack, Senate Bill Number 496-A. 2 SENATOR CONNOR: Lay aside, 3 please. 4 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside, 5 please. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 17, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 136. 8 SENATOR CONNOR: Lay aside, 9 please. 10 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside, 11 please. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 18, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 313, 14 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 15 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 16 section, please. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect - 19 SENATOR CONNOR: Lay it aside, 20 please. 21 THE PRESIDENT: Oh, lay it aside, 22 please. 23 SENATOR CONNOR: What number is 1 that? 2 THE PRESIDENT: Calendar 18. 3 SENATOR CONNOR: I'm sorry. 4 THE PRESIDENT: Oh, read the last 5 section. 6 SENATOR CONNOR: I want 18 laid 7 aside. 8 THE PRESIDENT: Well, I'm -- lay 9 it aside, please. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 19, by Senator Maltese, Senate Bill Number 491, 12 an act to amend the Social Services Law, in 13 relation to access to criminal history records. 14 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 15 section, please. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll, 19 please. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 22 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 23 passed. 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 25, by Senator Stafford. 3 SENATOR CONNOR: Lay aside, 4 please. 5 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside, 6 please. 7 Senator Bruno, that completes the 8 non-controversial reading of the calendar. 9 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 10 may we now have the controversial reading of the 11 calendar. 12 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 13 will read. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 5, by Senator Lack, Senate Bill Number 496-A, an 16 act to amend the Judiciary Law, in relation to 17 audio-visual coverage of judicial proceedings. 18 SENATOR CONNOR: Explanation, 19 please. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Explanation is 21 requested, please. 22 SENATOR LACK: Madam President. 23 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Lack. 1 SENATOR LACK: Thank you. 2 Madam President, this would 3 extend the current authority for cameras in the 4 courtroom, which expires as of February 1st of 5 this year, for two and a half years. 6 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Madam 7 President. 8 In past years -- in past years, 9 this bill has come before us. I remember the 10 first time it came before us when Senator 11 Anderson brought it out under his sponsorship, 12 and there was a big debate on the floor, and I 13 led the debate against the then version of the 14 bill, and it was defeated on the floor and in 15 subsequent years it's been renewed. It was 16 allowed to expire. 17 I've voiced my opposition to this 18 bill, but I have had an opportunity now to 19 observe the cameras in the courtroom in action, 20 to review a report that, while not perfect, is 21 finally an evaluation. I think the first 22 experimental bill round, we all felt and many of 23 us felt the kind of report and evaluation we got 1 was not truly a good view of how the experiment 2 had worked. 3 So basically, in view of where we 4 are today, Senator, I do intend to support this 5 bill, although, of course, it is one of those 6 bills on which members have diverse opinions and 7 it is a matter of conscience, but I just wanted 8 to convey that to you. 9 Senator Hoffmann? 10 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 11 Hoffmann. 12 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Madam 13 President, I believe I have an amendment at the 14 desk. 15 THE PRESIDENT: There is an 16 amendment at the desk. 17 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Could we have 18 it read. 19 THE PRESIDENT: Would you read 20 the amendment, please. 21 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I'd like to 22 call that amendment now, please. 23 THE PRESIDENT: Would you like to 1 waive the reading of the amendment and explain 2 it? 3 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Please. 4 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 5 Hoffmann. 6 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you. 7 The amendment at the desk would 8 provide several changes in the bill, and I would 9 like to just say at the outset that over the 10 last decade the issue of cameras in the 11 courtroom has gone through a very interesting 12 evolution in New York State, and I've watched 13 with -- with some pleasure the degree of 14 interest that has been put forth in this house 15 to some areas which a decade ago were not really 16 very well considered at all, and I want to 17 compliment the sponsor for having addressed some 18 of the concerns that I had raised initially back 19 in 1986 and felt like a rather lonely voice, but 20 at that time the bill was put aside and because 21 of the lack of unanimity on its concept, the 22 lack of concern -- lack of unanimity on its 23 evaluation component, we didn't have a bill at a 1 point in time when there was an expectation that 2 it would go through with very little discussion 3 at all. 4 So it's one area where the 5 involvement of this legislative body in earnest 6 discussions, has made a difference and, while we 7 may not find a final solution today, I hope we 8 will come a little closer to a meeting of the 9 minds about what is really important when we 10 address the issue of cameras in the courtroom. 11 Is the paramount issue here the 12 public's right to know, or is the paramount 13 issue the practice of justice in New York State? 14 And I would submit that we must still remain 15 absolutely dedicated to the practice of justice 16 as our number one goal and concern and recognize 17 that a second constitutional right in this 18 country, namely, the public's right to know, is 19 already guaranteed. The free press and the free 20 trial provisions are more than adequately 21 recognized by the open courtrooms that we have 22 in this state. Any of us are quite capable of 23 going and sitting and listening to a trial. 1 We're also able to read the 2 newspaper accounts. But simply because we now 3 have electronic news media as a fact of life in 4 our homes and our bars and restaurants and 5 legislative halls, does not mean that everything 6 that happens in a courtroom must be or should be 7 televised. 8 There are three distinct 9 provisions within this amendment that would 10 alter, not significantly, but would alter the 11 bill that Senator Lack has introduced today. 12 One would make it very clear that 13 a crime victim in a sex crime would have 14 absolute veto power over cameras in the 15 courtroom if that is the choice of that crime 16 victim. 17 Another one would require that 18 the review committee would have a representative 19 from the Crime Victims Board so that, when we go 20 back at the end of this evaluation period, we 21 will have the benefit of people who are familiar 22 with crime victims, in analyzing whether or not 23 it has been a sensibly drawn bill and it has 1 been well planned and executed in this addition 2 al, I guess, third or fourth trial period. 3 And finally, and I wonder why 4 this has to be written in at all, but yet -- and 5 yet it does -- and finally, the amendment would 6 include that there would be videotape repository 7 -- a videotape repository available where all 8 of the videotapes could be placed -- would be 9 evaluated through the review process and would 10 obviously be available then for the public for 11 any further scholarly study as well as by the 12 Legislature in ascertaining whether or not the 13 experiment has been well conducted. 14 Now, why do we want these three 15 provisions in? There is very clear anecdotal 16 evidence, and some scattered scientific evidence 17 to indicate that rape victims are reluctant to 18 prosecute crimes and are most reluctant to go 19 into a courtroom to see their attacker 20 prosecuted if they fear there is even the 21 slightest possibility that their own identity 22 would be disclosed. 23 We have to recognize our 1 responsibility here to the victims of those 2 crimes and not put rape victims and child 3 victims of sex crimes through any additional 4 horror. We should give them the right to say, 5 "No, I do not want this trial televised." 6 There are examples where testimony has taken 7 place and simply inadvertently the victim's 8 identity has been broadcast, or enough 9 information about the victim through her place 10 of residence, her attire, the circumstances 11 under which the attack took place, to make it 12 extremely evident to people who she knows, 13 people with whom she works, other people who are 14 simply aware of who she is, that she, in fact, 15 was a victim of a crime. 16 This is another abuse heaped upon 17 an already suffering individual, and we should 18 allow any woman in New York State the right to 19 say, "No, I do not want cameras in the courtroom 20 for this trial." 21 Now, if she has that right, what 22 would happen next? All trials involving sex 23 crimes would be closed to cameras? No, not 1 necessarily. It would mean then that the ball 2 is actually in the victim's court, and she would 3 have some validity through her attorney to 4 negotiate the circumstances under which the 5 camera would be in the court, not be told that 6 she would be protected by the presence of the 7 blue dot on the screen because, as we all know, 8 that blue dot does not always offer adequate 9 protection. She would then know through her 10 attorney under which circumstances the cameras 11 could be in the courtroom. Possibly for some of 12 the time, possibly for none of the time, 13 possibly with a narrowly trained camera so that 14 none of the courtroom would be panned because 15 she did not want the presence of her friends and 16 relatives panned in the courtroom to trigger 17 what her identity is; but at the present time 18 there is no guarantee for the victim of a rape 19 crime that any of those conditions will be met. 20 The only guarantee, the only 21 protection she has under the current measure is 22 that her permanent identity would be protected. 23 Inadvertent exposure, trivial aspects of her 1 life, miscellaneous aspects of testimony which 2 could lead to further humiliation are completely 3 beyond her control and are sufficient reason for 4 women in this state to say, "No, I will not 5 prosecute my attacker. I would rather let him 6 go free, commit similar rapes against other 7 women and children in this state rather than 8 endure any more humiliation myself." 9 In the interest of justice to 10 every rape victim in this state, we owe the 11 right to the absolute guarantee that there will 12 be no cameras or cameras only in a manner that 13 are acceptable to her and in the greater 14 interest of justice in prosecuting rapists by 15 allowing such women to feel comfortable or at 16 least to feel some measure of comfort in a 17 courtroom, we should further consider the 18 importance of this particular issue. 19 Judicial discretion, that's the 20 standard phrase that's used. The initial bill 21 that came up in 1986 was -- was very bold and 22 said that the judge would have judicial 23 discretion to decide when in other circumstances 1 the cameras should be taken out of the 2 courtroom; but the phrase "judicial discretion" 3 has come to be a very hollow one to many women 4 who have been exposed to something lacking in 5 discretion on the part of many judges. 6 We've all seen those well 7 publicized cases where one judge, not in this 8 state, told the -- told the public and told the 9 jury that the -- that the victim deserved the 10 attack because she was dressed provocatively or 11 appeared in a provocative manner. The victim 12 was a minor child in that particular national 13 scandal. Judicial discretion was not very 14 comforting in that instance. 15 There have been other cases where 16 judges have provided comic relief at the expense 17 of the victim, made inappropriate comments about 18 the victim's previous sexual activities, all of 19 which are supposedly not to be allowed in a 20 court of law, but occasionally will happen and 21 there is very often little sanction readily 22 available and any abuse that takes place at the 23 expense of the victim, if it's addressed at any 1 point in the future, will not obviate the need 2 for some remedial action right at that moment. 3 There is no provision in this 4 bill to deal with the kind of inadvertent 5 exposure of the victim's identity which could 6 occur and, in fact, has occurred. We had an 7 example in New York State out in Amherst, New 8 York during an arraignment, even while this last 9 provision was in effect, the last trial period. 10 We were supposed to have a guarantee that there 11 would be no disclosure of any rape victims' 12 names. A victim's name and address was 13 broadcast on the 6:00 o'clock news during an 14 arraignment. 15 There's an assumption made that 16 the broadcast industry will police itself and 17 will follow these provisions carefully. I don't 18 know why people would make that assumption, 19 because the nature of broadcasting does not 20 include in it a -- a daily ethic course for 21 cameramen. It does not include in it any kind 22 of a procedure in which every piece of videotape 23 that is going to be shown in the 6:00 o'clock 1 news in every jurisdiction in the United States 2 or in New York State is going to be subject to 3 careful evaluation by anybody to see whether 4 it's complying with the standards of the test 5 measure. 6 In fact, there are no sanctions 7 against the broadcasting industry on the whole 8 or in any individual broadcast outlet should 9 they violate the provisions of this bill. If 10 they make a mistake, if they violate the privacy 11 of a rape victim, there is no penalty for them. 12 The only penalty available is the penalty we 13 hold in our hands today by refusing to continue 14 the experiment, and yet it appears that there 15 are more than enough legislators in this state 16 who are willing to continue the experiment for 17 another two years. 18 But recognizing that the 19 experiment has not been a one hundred percent 20 success for the victims of sex crimes, can't we 21 continue the experiment by allowing them the 22 right to have cameras excluded if, in fact, that 23 is what they desire? And don't we have a 1 responsibility to insist that, at the very 2 least, a member of the sex crime board be 3 included in the evaluation procedure to give all 4 victims of sex crimes an opportunity to have 5 their concerns addressed before we make this a 6 permanent measure as it may some day become? 7 And finally, don't we have a 8 responsibility to all of the above individuals 9 and to ourselves as legislators, to insist that 10 we not have only printed reports but that we 11 maintain the actual videotape. We are, after 12 all, talking about broadcasting. Isn't it a 13 little bit ironic to have only a printed report 14 evaluating a broadcast experiment? Don't we 15 have an obligation to keep in a most scientific 16 manner the actual form of the -- of the 17 broadcast experiment that was used so that it 18 can then be evaluated objectively either by us 19 or by other people who have an interest in 20 seeing whether it continues or does not 21 continue? 22 So for all of these reasons, my 23 friends, I would ask you to consider the 1 importance of this amendment and ask whether we 2 would want to ever have to explain why, in the 3 interest of broadcast access, any of us allowed 4 a rape victim in this state to be subjected to 5 greater humiliation than was absolutely 6 necessary by permitting cameras in a courtroom 7 over her objections. 8 I will continue to support the 9 concept of cameras in the courtroom. I'm aware 10 of the -- the ridicule that some of us have 11 faced through the broadcast and the print media, 12 they're allies in opposing the greater measure 13 of cameras in the courtroom. I believe that 14 cameras have a place in the courtroom in New 15 York State. I would like to be able to support 16 a cameras in the courtroom bill that will 17 address the needs of all people in New York 18 State, but I can not support this bill unless we 19 can pass the amendment that I presented to the 20 desk today. 21 Thank you, Madam President. 22 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, 23 Senator Hoffmann. 1 Senator Lack on the amendment. 2 SENATOR LACK: Thank you, Madam 3 President. 4 Senator Hoffmann, I assume you 5 have good intentions, but the way your amendment 6 is worded right now, it says "provided, how 7 ever," and then it goes on and it only applies 8 to a victim who is testifying in the case. This 9 is your wording, so it doesn't apply in those 10 cases where a victim wouldn't be testifying. 11 As such, quite frankly, I refer 12 you to Section 218, 7. (g) of the Judiciary Law 13 which says: "No audio-visual coverage shall be 14 permitted of the victim in a prosecution for 15 rape, sodomy, sexual abuse or other sex offense 16 under article one hundred thirty or section 17 255.25 of the Penal Law." There's then a semi 18 colon that's following that. That's limiting, 19 not required. No coverage is allowed, period, 20 even if coverage for anything else has been 21 given. Yes, the judge can then throw it all 22 out. There's no blue dot involved; there's no 23 anything else. When a victim of a sex crime is 1 testifying at a trial, there is no coverage in 2 New York State, period, under existing law. No 3 amendments to it are necessary. 4 As to why victims might want to 5 -- quite frankly, we had a memorandum from 6 Justice for All, a group of victims that 7 supports victims having the choice if they so 8 choose, for whatever reason a victim might want 9 to choose to allow those proceedings to be 10 televised; and there are victims, those who are 11 part of Justice for All, who submitted this 12 memorandum, who want proceedings or at least 13 want the option to have proceedings televised as 14 long as there's an option for the victim not to, 15 and that's what this is all about. 16 So to put in an absolute 17 prohibition, quite frankly, runs counter in some 18 cases to some victims wanting the ability for 19 whatever reason, they want to have it publicized 20 what happened to them, and to want that on 21 television. Now, that is just as much their 22 right, quite frankly, as is the -- as is the 23 prohibition. 1 As to the rest of your 2 amendments, obviously any videotapes that were a 3 part of a report, there is a -- already a duty 4 in law that that which goes into a report which 5 is filed with us, particularly a committee that 6 is formed by the chief judge of the state of New 7 York, they're going to keep their exhibits. We 8 really don't have to tell the chief judge to 9 make sure her appointees keep exhibits of 10 audio-visual materials they've used to evaluate 11 whatever we're requiring them to file with us, 12 and I think it would be a little presumptuous 13 for us to try to give that kind of instruction 14 to the chief judge. She knows far better than 15 we do the kind of material that has to be kept 16 in a report. 17 So, quite frankly, we already 18 have in law what you've been asking for in your 19 amendment. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Paterson, 21 on the amendment, please. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Based on what 23 Senator Lack has presented us, I would like to 1 look at section 218, 7. (g) to see that that's 2 actually the case and, if it is, Senator Lack, 3 then I stand corrected. 4 What I think the point of the 5 amendment was, was to try to relieve some of the 6 jurisdiction from the judge in these specific 7 cases and to transfer part of it to that of the 8 victim, the understanding being in the amendment 9 that the lack of complaint about cameras in the 10 courtroom would not necessarily be the grounds 11 for sustaining the notion that it's a good thing 12 and that people like it because the problem that 13 victims of sexual offenses have always had, is 14 that there is no disclosure. There's no desire 15 to come forward. There's no reason to let 16 anyone know that this abuse is taking place and 17 that's the most diabolical effect of sexual 18 offenses in the first place, that they are the 19 types of crimes that put the victim in the 20 position of being as much on trial as the 21 perpetrator. And so we don't know what the 22 effects of cameras in the courtroom have been on 23 individuals who have been victimized, but we do 1 know that individuals who've been victimized 2 have often not come forward, whether we have 3 cameras in the courtroom or not. 4 The fact is that you don't have 5 to be a rape victim not to want your personal 6 business discussed in court. That's why in 1898 7 we closed the family courts, and the family 8 courts were not closed to protect children; they 9 were closed to protect the actions of adults in 10 many cases. 11 I'm in favor of opening the 12 family courts. I'm in favor of putting cameras 13 in the courtroom. I voted against this 14 legislation in 1986. I voted against it up to 15 1992. But I think I'm beginning to see that the 16 openness of proceedings is really the best 17 course for us to take in our society even though 18 it may often be seen as absurd, even though it 19 may be poignantly displayed as it may in some of 20 our television coverage, such as on CNN and 21 Court TV. They go into a great detail and we 22 can actually see the opposite of it in some of 23 the television tabloid journalism programs. 1 But the fact is that the framers 2 of the Constitution wanted our judicial proceed 3 ings to be open, and we should abide by it. But 4 when it comes to very specific situations, it 5 would seem to me that we would try to understand 6 that it is the victim that has more to lose even 7 than the analysis of the judicial official, 8 whether it be the chief judge or the sitting 9 judge in those particular situations. 10 Ancillary testimony at these 11 kinds of proceedings can produce the identity or 12 certain habits or certain information about a 13 victim that the victim does not want to know. 14 In addition, I would just want to point out that 15 Section 1, Article 130 of section 255.25 does 16 not include all of the sexual offenses that 17 exist in the Penal Law, including those of child 18 sexual abuse which we think are also relevant to 19 the spirit of Senator Hoffmann's amendment, that 20 these would be some protections that would be 21 added to the legislation. 22 And finally, I just ask this 23 question of the media more than even the 1 proponents of the legislation: If we can put 2 cameras in the courtroom, if we can try to bring 3 sunshine to these proceedings, why is it so 4 necessary that we know every single thing about 5 these types of crimes when we know the damage 6 that these types of crimes has held in the past? 7 Why do we have to know? There's a difference 8 between the public right and the public query. 9 We, as a public, become very interested in 10 particular types of cases. But when we balance 11 the value of our interest with the value of the 12 injury, shouldn't we at least add some extra 13 protections to make sure that a victim of a 14 crime that wants to come forward, which is a 15 major step in the first place, does not have to 16 even suffer from the perception that there will 17 be an additional injury that would take place 18 after the physical injury and would be actually 19 the emotional harm of even the perception that 20 their identity is going to be exposed. The 21 identity and the persona and the psychological 22 welfare should be the main objective of victims 23 and, when victims want to exercise these 1 situations in such a fashion that they would 2 disclose or come forward, they should certainly 3 have that option. When they do not want to, we 4 feel that they should have that option as well. 5 Otherwise, the bill is one that I will support. 6 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, 7 Senator Paterson. 8 Senator Leichter, on the 9 amendment. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: I think we 11 make a serious mistake with this amendment and 12 I've listened very carefully to Senator Hoffmann 13 and Senator Paterson, and I know the good 14 concerns and well intention of Senator Hoffmann 15 in moving forward this amendment. But let's 16 just back up for a moment. 17 New York State has the most 18 restrictive law of all the 47 states which allow 19 cameras in the courtroom as far as making these 20 proceedings public. Many states have had these 21 for many, many years. We've had it under 22 somewhat restricted circumstances for seven 23 years. In those seven years, there has been no 1 complaint. No complaint. No victim rights 2 group has come and said, "You are placing in 3 jeopardy the well-being of a victim of a sexual 4 crime." 5 We have set up two commissions 6 that have carefully looked into how cameras in 7 the courtroom work in this state. Both of them 8 have overwhelmingly recommended that the system 9 be continued, and I believe I'm correct, that 10 the latest recommendation was that the system be 11 made permanent. I certainly favor making it 12 permanent. 13 It was the most thorough analysis 14 that was made. The last commission or task 15 force was headed by Justice Burton Roberts. 16 There's no more knowledgeable person of our 17 criminal justice system, no tougher prosecutor, 18 nobody who would be more concerned if 19 prosecutions were hindered because witnesses did 20 not come forward. There's been not one reported 21 case where somebody refused to make a complaint 22 because she or he were concerned or afraid that 23 their identity would be compromised at a trial. 1 The last time we renewed cameras 2 in the courtroom, we put in very specific 3 protections for victims of rape, victims of 4 sexual crimes to protect their identity. 5 Senator Lack has rightly pointed out that 6 Senator Hoffmann's amendment doesn't do what she 7 says it's going to do because, first of all, it 8 only talks about a crime victim of sexual crime 9 who testifies. Many of them don't testify, so 10 it wouldn't even apply in those cases, Senator 11 Hoffmann, and, if you would read it, all it says 12 is that that proceeding would not be televised 13 or subject to the audio-visual publication, but 14 "proceeding" as written in there seems to refer 15 to the testimony of the crime victim. 16 But let's assume for the moment 17 that your amendment says what you believe that 18 it says. Why is it that no victim rights group 19 came before us or came before the Justice 20 Roberts task force and said, "You're not 21 protecting the victims of sexual crimes?" On 22 the contrary, two victim rights organizations 23 testified and pleaded for the continuation of 1 cameras in the courtroom, and I think that the 2 victims of crimes understand maybe better than 3 we do the importance of the public knowing and 4 understanding what they went through, the 5 importance of the public understanding the whole 6 criminal justice system, and that's why our 7 forefathers, in their brilliance -- and it 8 certainly was brilliance -- in molding our 9 Constitution, provided that all trials ought to 10 be public, and "public" means that you can go in 11 there. "Public" means the press can report it. 12 "Public" also should mean that the way that 13 people learn these days about public events, 14 which is through television, be one that the 15 media use to show what is going on in the 16 trial. 17 Senator Hoffmann said, and I 18 quote her, this "clear anecdotal evidence". 19 Senator, we don't proceed or should not proceed 20 on anecdotal evidence. If you have evidence, 21 that's fine, but for seven years we've had no 22 evidence. 23 My good friend, Senator Paterson, 1 says we don't know the effect. Senator, we do 2 know the effect. If, for seven years, nobody 3 has complained, no prosecutors, no victim rights 4 organizations, no women's group has said this 5 law doesn't work, this law doesn't protect 6 victims, we do know the effect, and I submit 7 that it's those who say that there's something 8 wrong with cameras in the courtroom who have an 9 obligation to give us more than anecdotal 10 evidence, even "clear anecdotal evidence" or to 11 tell us, Well, I don't know what the effect is 12 and, therefore, there must be an effect. We do 13 know the effect, and the effect is that it has 14 served the public interest. 15 I think the best step against 16 crime, the best step that we can take is to have 17 an informed public, and that means to have 18 cameras in the courtroom. 19 I finally want to say that, if 20 you -- if you accept this sort of an amendment, 21 I think it's a slippery slope and next year 22 we'll be back and somebody says, Well, these 23 sort of crimes really, we shouldn't -- we 1 shouldn't televise them and then we'll call up 2 another exception and more. 3 47 states have cameras in the 4 courtroom. None of them seem to have the 5 problems that have been the source of the 6 concerns that Senator Hoffmann has raised, and 7 seven years we haven't had that problem. I 8 don't know why we manufacture these problems and 9 I -- and I realize, Senator Hoffmann, you have 10 very great concern for the welfare of victims of 11 all crimes, I know, and particularly of sexual 12 crimes, and you're right, they deserve not only 13 our sympathy, they deserve our protection, but I 14 respectfully submit to you that this really does 15 not provide protection. I think it takes away 16 what is needed and that is to let the public 17 know what happens in the courtrooms and to let 18 the public know what steps are being taken or 19 not being taken to deal with crime. 20 I urge the defeat of this 21 amendment. I think Senator Lack, who's worked 22 very hard on this issue, worked to put together 23 a bill with the Assembly, if we don't pass it 1 and pass it today, we're going to end up without 2 cameras in the courtroom, and I think it would 3 be the shame of New York State if that happens. 4 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, 5 Senator Leichter. 6 Senator Abate on the amendment. 7 SENATOR ABATE: I, too, applaud 8 Senator Lack. I support fully cameras in the 9 courtroom, and -- but I'd like to speak a little 10 bit about beyond anecdotal. 11 I was the chair of the Crime 12 Victims Board in the '80s, and at that time 13 victims groups were very concerned about cameras 14 in the courtroom, and we went throughout the 15 state. Now they are very comfortable, but I 16 think it's a misconception to suggest that 17 victims and citizens don't feel that crime 18 victims who have been victimized by sex 19 offenders, should not be treated in a different 20 category. 21 There is still -- I made some 22 calls today. There is still concern among 23 victims groups, particularly women who have been 1 victimized by these heinous crimes, that many of 2 them will not come forward and report those 3 crimes to the police. It is not anecdotal. If 4 you go to police departments throughout the 5 state, the most under-reported crime are crimes 6 of sex offenses. 7 That's because it's a very 8 personal crime. It's an invasion of one's 9 privacy. Because the crime is so misunderstood, 10 many victims feel shamed. They feel guilt. 11 They feel that they've done something wrong, 12 even though it's not a crime of passion, it's a 13 crime of control. It's a crime of violence. 14 We, in our society, have to do 15 better in terms of educating the public. I 16 believe we have an opportunity the next two 17 years if we're more restrictive today vis-a-vis 18 these kinds of crime victims. We can learn from 19 this experience. We extend the law, let's see 20 what we learn, but I believe victims of sex 21 offenses are unique. There's a particular 22 sensitivity that's involved with this kind of 23 crime, and I think we should pay attention to 1 it. 2 But I applaud it. I will support 3 cameras in the courtroom. I've advanced in my 4 thinking. Years ago I objected to it. We've 5 seen through the experience, it is worthwhile. 6 It is something that we should protect, but on 7 the other hand, I think there's a vital interest 8 in terms of crime victims vis-a-vis sex offenses 9 that needs to be protected. 10 THE PRESIDENT: The question is 11 on the amendment. All those in favor signify by 12 saying aye. 13 (Response of "Aye.") 14 All those opposed say nay. 15 (Response of "Nay.") 16 In the opinion of the Chair, the 17 nays have it. The amendment is not agreed to. 18 Read the last section, please. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: If I may, 22 Madam President. 23 THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Senator 1 Dollinger, please. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Madam 3 President, on the bill. 4 I commend Senator Lack as well 5 for his work in continuing New York's experiment 6 with cameras in the courtroom, and I guess what 7 I'm always amazed at is that we in this country, 8 when motion picture cameras first came into 9 prominence in American justice, really happened 10 to coincide with the Lindbergh trial, which some 11 of you remember was held in the state of New 12 Jersey, in which there was large and widespread 13 movie coverage of the Lindbergh trial in the 14 late 1920s and early 1930s. That raised 15 concerns about defendants and the impact of 16 cameras in courtrooms upon defendants, but I 17 certainly think we've come a long way from the 18 star chambers of the past and have opened up our 19 courtrooms, made them public trials. 20 I think it's also interesting, 21 when you look at the effect of the O.J. Simpson 22 trial and the public television coverage of 23 that, I hear a lot more on the news about the 1 concept of jury sequestration, jury selection, 2 jury tampering -- there's an article in The Wall 3 Street Journal today about it -- all of those 4 issues relating to juries, I think the greater 5 -- have created a greater public understanding 6 of juries, public questioning of juries, public 7 information, public education of juries because 8 they are the focal point of the televised 9 coverage of the Simpson case. 10 I think all of that education of 11 the public about the jury system which, for 12 those of us as lawyers who are familiar with it, 13 understand how it works, I think it serves a 14 tremendous public benefit for more and more 15 people who are non-lawyers to see that side of 16 of both the criminal and the civil justice 17 system. 18 And I would just add one other 19 thought. I happened to read "Bleak House" over 20 the Christmas holidays, and I sometimes wondered 21 if there had been cameras in the courtroom when 22 Jaryndice against Jaryndice occurred, maybe they 23 wouldn't have had to wait 30 or 40 years for a 1 resolution. 2 It's getting the cameras in the 3 courtroom to look at both your civil and 4 criminal justice system that will bring out 5 changes not only in this chamber but in the mind 6 of the public as well. This legislation is a 7 continuing step in that direction. I applaud 8 it. I'll vote in favor of it. 9 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 10 will read the last section, please. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 SENATOR HOFFMANN: On the bill. 14 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 15 Hoffmann. 16 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I feel 17 compelled to speak once again on the bill now, 18 Madam President, just to clarify a couple of 19 things. 20 I chose not to ask anybody to 21 yield for a question and engage in protracted 22 debate on this measure, but I am troubled by - 23 by one exchange that occurred a few moments ago 1 here, and I would just like to take a moment and 2 put in perspective the apparent contradiction. 3 My good colleague, Senator 4 Leichter, on the one hand, took great exception 5 to the use of the phrase "anecdotal evidence" 6 that I mentioned, I referenced, and Senator 7 Abate expanded somewhat on that and then he went 8 on at great length to use a very broad brush 9 approach to say that the 47 states that have 10 cameras in the courtroom have had no problems at 11 all, and I doubt very much whether Senator 12 Leichter or Senator Lack or any other member of 13 this chamber has been personally in touch with 14 every one of the other states that have engaged 15 in any portion of an experiment with cameras in 16 the courtroom to speak with that degree of 17 certainty about each aspect of it. 18 But that seems to be the standard 19 by which we sometimes operate. Those who 20 maintain the information that is about to be 21 passed are given a little bit more latitude or 22 perceive their right to speak in much more 23 definitive terms about their inherent grasp of 1 right, and those of us who do not have piles of 2 strict doctrinaire evidence are somewhat 3 suspect. 4 I would just like my colleagues 5 to remember that we are a representative 6 democracy, a representative Legislature, and 7 there are those of us who perhaps are more 8 familiar with -- are more conversant with rape 9 victims, with people who have been through the 10 experience on a personal basis of a sex crime 11 and we may know from a very personal vantage 12 point, as legislators and as women, that there 13 is, in fact, a chilling effect of cameras in the 14 courtroom that compels us to want an amendment 15 to this measure that would guarantee the 16 protection that victims of rape trials have 17 asked for. If they have not asked as vocally as 18 have the broadcasters asked, then perhaps they 19 are negligent in their responsibilities to us as 20 legislators. 21 But let's be reasonable. We are 22 talking about rape victims. They do not make a 23 towering mass of lobbyists on the steps of the 1 Capitol. They speak to us one at a time and 2 quietly. They have no vested interest that will 3 enrich them personally. They have no profit 4 motive, and they have already been stigmatized, 5 but some of us do hear them and we want them to 6 know that we have taken their concerns into 7 consideration and, as much as I support the 8 concept of cameras in the courtroom until their 9 needs are addressed, not just their personal 10 right to be excused from coverage individually, 11 but until all of their concerns have been 12 addressed and they are allowed the absolute 13 knowledge that there will be no camera in a 14 courtroom in a trial in which they are once 15 again forced to relive their sex crime, then I 16 will have to vote against this measure. 17 Thank you. 18 THE PRESIDENT: Would you please 19 read the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE PRESIDENT: Results. 1 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 2 the negative on Calendar Number 5 are Senators 3 Babbush, Cook, Daly, DiCarlo, Hoffmann, Holland, 4 Johnson, LaValle, Leibell, Levy, Maltese, 5 Onorato, Padavan, Present, Santiago, Sears, 6 Solomon, Stachowski and Volker. Ayes 35, nays 7 18. 8 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 9 passed. 10 Senator Bruno. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 12 I ask that we return to reports of standing 13 committees, and I believe that there is a report 14 from the Rules Committee at the desk. 15 THE PRESIDENT: A report of the 16 standing committees. The Secretary will read. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno, 18 from the Committee on Rules, reports the follow 19 ing resolution: 20 Concurrent Resolution Number 260 21 of the Senate and Assembly, proposing an 22 amendment to the permanent joint rules of the 23 Senate and Assembly in relation to authorizing a 1 joint committee on conference to consider and 2 report upon substantially similar but not 3 identical legislation that has passed each 4 house. 5 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno. 6 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 7 I move that we accept the report of the Rules 8 Committee. 9 THE PRESIDENT: All those in 10 favor. 11 SENATOR CONNOR: Madam 12 President. Is this - 13 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Connor? 14 (There was no response.) 15 All those in favor of adopting 16 the Rules report, signify by saying aye. 17 (Response of "Aye." ) 18 Those opposed signify by saying 19 Nay. 20 (Response of "Nay." ) 21 The ayes have it. The report is 22 adopted. 23 Senator Bruno. 1 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 2 I move that we adopt the resolution of the Rules 3 Committee and that it be read presently in its 4 entirety. 5 THE PRESIDENT: Please read. The 6 Secretary will read. 7 THE SECRETARY: Concurrent 8 Resolution Number 260, by Senator Bruno: 9 Concurrent Resolution of the 10 Senate and Assembly proposing an amendment to 11 the permanent joint rules of the Senate and 12 Assembly, in relation to authorizing a joint 13 committee on conference to consider and report 14 upon substantially similar but not identical 15 legislation that has passed each house. 16 RESOLVED, if the Assembly concur, 17 that the permanent joint rules of the Senate and 18 Assembly are amended by adding a new joint Rule 19 II to read as follows: 20 Joint Rule II. Section 1. 21 Committee on Conference. The Temporary 22 President of the Senate and the Speaker of the 23 Assembly may jointly convene a joint committee 1 on conference to consider and report upon 2 substantially similar but not identical 3 legislation that has passed each house of the 4 Legislature. 5 Such committee shall be 6 constituted by the filing of a joint certificate 7 by the Temporary President of the Senate and the 8 Speaker of the Assembly, with the Secretary of 9 the Senate and the Clerk of the Assembly and 10 shall consist of the same number of members from 11 each house. 12 Unless otherwise provided in the 13 certificate, there shall be five members of such 14 committee from each house to be appointed by the 15 Temporary President of the Senate who shall 16 appoint the members from the Senate and the 17 Speaker of the Assembly shall appoint the 18 members from the Assembly; provided, however, 19 that of each house's delegation at least one 20 member shall represent the minority in each 21 house. The Temporary President of the Senate 22 and the Speaker of the Assembly shall each 23 appoint a co-chairperson of the committee and 1 such co-chairpersons shall convene and recess 2 meetings of the committee. Meetings jointly 3 convened by the co-chairpersons shall be subject 4 to the provisions of Article VII of the Public 5 Officers Law. The committee shall file a 6 written report setting forth the joint 7 recommendations of the majority of each house's 8 delegation with the Secretary of the Senate and 9 the Clerk of the Assembly or such other 10 committees or officers as may be set forth in 11 the certificate, and such report may include 12 specific bill language that would implement the 13 joint committee's recommendations. 14 No report shall be filed except 15 upon the affirmative vote of a majority of the 16 members of each house's delegation on the 17 committee. 18 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno. 19 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 20 on the resolution. 21 We have talked in this house 22 about many very worthwhile reforms, and I think 23 this is a landmark in that we join most of the 1 other states in the United States in now going 2 forward with a conference committee concept, and 3 I have agreement with the Speaker in the other 4 house, and I want to thank him for his 5 conferring in good nature and all the others 6 that have been involved -- Senator Lack, who has 7 been active at the national level. There are 8 many good things whose time will come this 9 year. 10 Conference committee's time has 11 come. It moves the legislative process 12 forward. There is flexibility in this 13 resolution that is before us. It allows us to 14 do the kinds of things that are necessary to 15 move forward with good government, giving 16 flexibility in terms of minority participation 17 as well as majority participation, and that 18 participation in those issues would be selected 19 by the leaders in the respective houses as we 20 would file joint statements when we saw the need 21 to create a conference committee. 22 Again, the intent of this is to 23 move the agenda of reform and good government 1 forward. 2 Thank you, Madam President. 3 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 4 Paterson. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Madam 6 President, I have an amendment at the desk. As 7 a matter of fact, to show our contribution, we 8 marked the amendment ourselves. 9 We first want to commend the 10 Majority Leader and all those - 11 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 12 Paterson. 13 SENATOR BRUNO: May I just ask a 14 point of order. Senator, Madam President, I 15 don't believe that you can amend the 16 resolution. I believe the proper format might 17 be to do a substitution, if that's what the 18 intent is. 19 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno's 20 point is well taken. It would not provide for 21 the amending of the rules. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 23 Madam President. 1 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 2 Paterson. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: What I'll just 4 do, rather than even substituting a resolution, 5 is perhaps I'll just ask the Temporary President 6 about the resolution and maybe we can just come 7 to an agreement. 8 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno. 9 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Madam 10 President. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, first 12 of all, we would like to congratulate you and 13 all of you who worked on this for this kind of 14 an effort. It is definitely going to bring to 15 public attention a great deal of information 16 about bills that are passed in both of the 17 houses, particularly in this state and in this 18 forum in which we work and is going to allow us 19 to negotiate together more in public and 20 commensurate with the way that the public would 21 like. 22 And so we strongly support your 23 -- your resolution. As a matter of fact, the 1 reason that we were thinking of amending it 2 which we now understand would have been achieved 3 better through substitution, would be just the 4 number of individuals who are on the actual 5 committee, and on page 2, line 6 and 9, the 6 delegation or delineation between the 7 conferences of those members. 8 Now, we understand that, in small 9 groups, quite often the change of the position 10 of one member of the group could actually 11 influence the end result. So what we were 12 proposing was to take a number of members of the 13 committee, from 5 to 7, splitting those two 14 additional members between the Majority and the 15 Minority, giving the Majority a number that 16 would be five and the Minority a number being 17 two. This would then give the Minority 28 18 percent of the votes at the committee, but we 19 understand that there can be no conclusion that 20 is reached that does not meet with the approval 21 of the Majority in both houses. So, in other 22 words, regardless of how there is a vote, it 23 would have to be agreed to by the -- by the 1 Majority. 2 So, therefore, what we're asking 3 is not more power in the proceedings, in other 4 words not the capacity to influence the 5 proceedings, but just more membership to assist 6 the distribution of information and to better 7 equalize the percentage of members as there 8 would be with the percentage of the whole 9 house. That's something that I'm asking be 10 added to the resolution. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 12 if I understand correctly, then we don't have 13 anything formal on the floor, but a suggestion 14 that we expand the participation of the 15 committees, the conference committees as we go 16 forward. 17 THE PRESIDENT: That is correct, 18 Senator Bruno. 19 SENATOR BRUNO: And let me share 20 with you, as a matter of record, that I think 21 that makes a lot of sense, and the language in 22 this resolution allows the leaders in the 23 respective houses not to do four and one but to 1 agree on a number, and that is the Speaker's 2 interpretation as well as mine and our counsel. 3 So I can tell you, I talked to the Speaker this 4 morning, and we're open to, you know, four for 5 some committees and two, sometimes five and 6 two. 7 So rather than try and be 8 specific with new numbers, there's enough 9 flexibility there, but our intent would be to 10 have that Minority participation and that it be 11 in substantive issues more than one. 12 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Connor. 13 SENATOR CONNOR: Madam President, 14 if Senator Bruno would yield just for a couple 15 of questions that I have. 16 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno. 17 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Madam 18 please. 19 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Madam 20 President. 21 Senator Bruno, as I read this, 22 and again, it's -- as you pointed out, it's 23 flexible. I could read this rule and say, aha! 1 Let's create a super Rules Committee, you know, 2 you could have one committee conference 3 representing leadership, for example, conference 4 all the major bills on which there are 5 differences, or you could turn around and have 6 for each issue area which you and the Speaker 7 wish to have conferenced, a different conference 8 committee, and I was wondering just to get a 9 sense of intention, what the intention is with 10 respect to that. 11 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno. 12 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 13 the intent is that on each issue, that we 14 establish an individual conference committee, 15 not one major committee covering a number of 16 areas, but address each subject individually 17 with a committee, with a chair appointed for 18 that discussion, and it would be my intent to 19 appoint people on the committee that would be 20 supportive of the legislation so that you ensure 21 that there be at least a continuity of interest 22 as they go forward. 23 SENATOR CONNOR: If I may, Madam 1 President, one further question. Senator Bruno, 2 I notice the resolution says that the Majority 3 Leader shall appoint the Minority members, 4 member or members, and I would just like your 5 assurance that while the rules, of course, allow 6 the Majority Leader, the Temporary President, to 7 make all committee appointments, it is the 8 unvarying custom of this house that Minority 9 appointments by the Majority Leader are upon the 10 recommendation of the Minority Leader. 11 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno. 12 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Madam 13 President. We intend to go forward in the same 14 spirit as you've just reflected with the normal 15 standing committees in the conference committees 16 taking the recommendation from the Minority 17 Leader. 18 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Madam 19 President. 20 THE PRESIDENT: On the 21 resolution, all those -- I'm so sorry, Senator 22 Leichter. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Madam 1 President, it -- I think it's appropriate to get 2 up and just note, because I think it deserves to 3 be emphasized and underscored what a very 4 significant step this is, and I want to commend 5 Senator Bruno for it. Obviously it would not 6 have happened except for his leadership. 7 Obviously, I commend the Speaker and you said 8 Senator Lack was involved, and I think that 9 Senator Paterson and Senator Connor have 10 clarified this, and I think have made it 11 somewhat more workable and I think fairer. 12 I just hope that we really use 13 this system, which is obviously at the 14 discretion of the Majority Leader and the 15 Speaker, and there well may be a temptation to 16 go back to a system that has stood us in such 17 poor stead for so long, and I understand the 18 pressures that come up and sometimes, as we all 19 know, democracy can be somewhat frustrating, but 20 I really think that, if we proceed on this, 21 we're going to become a more effective 22 legislative body in carrying out the wishes and 23 the needs of the people of this state. 1 So it's -- it's really -- it's a 2 terrific milestone. It's something, as you 3 know, that this Minority has urged for many 4 years, something I've spoken about, I feel very 5 strongly about, because my aim and my desire is 6 really to make this the sort of legislative body 7 that I think we can be and the sort of 8 legislative body that the people of this state 9 need, and I think it is a real red letter day 10 for the Senate and the Assembly of the state of 11 New York that we're -- that we have this 12 resolution before us. 13 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 14 Dollinger. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll be very 16 brief, Madam President. 17 I join my colleague, Senator 18 Leichter, in his comments with respect to the 19 Minority and the Majority Leader for this 20 particular issue, given the clarifications that 21 have been made to Senator Paterson and Senator 22 Connor about how the conference committees are 23 going to operate. I think that addresses some 1 of the concerns that we had. 2 I think there are two other names 3 that ought to be mentioned, two of my colleagues 4 and perhaps others who have been at the fore 5 front of this issue over the last couple of 6 years, but certainly Senator Leichter and 7 Senator Hoffmann have talked about the 8 importance of conference committees and pushed 9 the concept of conference committees in the 10 past. I would be remiss if I didn't recognize 11 their contribution in making this happen as 12 well. 13 I agree with Senator Bruno, I 14 think this is something that the entire Senate 15 can take gratitude in recognizing and putting 16 into effect. My hope is that it will achieve 17 the real goal that we're all here, and that is 18 better serve the people of this state. Let's go 19 forward. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 21 recognizes Senator Lack on the resolution. 22 SENATOR LACK: Thank you, Mr. 23 President. 1 I, too, would like to add my 2 congratulations to Senator Bruno who was more 3 than receptive when this -- when this was 4 suggested and has worked very hard to reach 5 agreement with the -- with the Assembly and come 6 out with, I think, a good set of regulations 7 with respect to the conference committees. 8 Just to allay any fears, every 9 state in the country, and that's really every 10 state in the country that has conference 11 committees, either has a set membership of three 12 members or five members, and I think Senator 13 Bruno, by adopting the flexibility standard that 14 he has, I've been able to assure that we've been 15 able to establish conference committees on a 16 case-by-case basis as the -- as the issue might 17 merit, so that if three members are needed for 18 whatever the bill might be, it will be three 19 members. If it's five members, it can be five 20 members. It can be any number, but just 21 recognize, of course, that five members on each 22 side, including the Minority plus staff on all 23 four sides, starts to add up to a fairly big 1 number of people actually negotiating the bill 2 and in any event, the end product always comes 3 back to each house that has to be repassed as a 4 -- in the same format as the original bill 5 passed before it can go to the Governor of this 6 state and become law. 7 So my congratulations also to 8 Senator Bruno. I think this is an excellent 9 movement forward and one that certainly has been 10 necessary in this house for a long period of 11 time. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 13 recognizes Senator Hoffmann. 14 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr. 15 President. 16 As we are two days away from 17 receiving the budget -- the budget -- it is 18 probably very appropriate that once again we are 19 showing in this chamber our complete sense of 20 flexibility about numbers. 21 Under your leadership, Senator 22 Bruno, you have once again demonstrated, to the 23 admiration of us all, your remarkable commitment 1 to true democracy, with a small "d", a great 2 sense of egalitarian leadership and farsighted 3 ness that has been missing in this chamber for 4 many, many years, and I know in my heart that 5 this is just one more step on that long road to 6 true open meetings in the interest of the best 7 possible government in New York State, and this 8 is a proud day for all members of the New York 9 State Senate under your leadership, Senator 10 Bruno. 11 Thank you. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 13 any other Senator wishing to speak on the 14 resolution? 15 Hearing none, the question is on 16 the resolution. All those in favor signify by 17 saying aye. 18 (Response of "Aye.") 19 Opposed nay. 20 (There was no response. ) 21 The resolution is adopted. 22 Senator Bruno, what's your 23 pleasure? 1 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I 2 think it's time to return to the controversial 3 calendar and proceed. Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will proceed to the controversial calendar and 6 continue reading in order. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 17, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 136, 9 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Holland, an explanation has been asked for by 12 Senator Paterson. 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 14 this is a bill that passed last year 57 to zero, 15 and simply requires the local -- the state DSS 16 to offer waivers and look for innovative 17 programs, both from the local DSS offices as far 18 as home relief clients go. We are trying to 19 encourage the local offices of DSS to develop 20 innovative programs, then give them to us so we 21 can run them statewide and, if they develop an 22 innovative program, we will give them 60 percent 23 reimbursement for that program instead of 50 1 percent. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 11 is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 18, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 313, 14 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Holland, an explanation has been asked for by 18 Senator Paterson. 19 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 20 if a client refuses a requirement of the 21 Department of Social Services, they have an 22 option of going in for conciliation. This bill 23 basically reduces that time limit for 1 conciliation from 44 days to 30 days. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Secretary will read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 11 is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 25, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number 619, 14 an act to amend the Highway Law, prohibiting 15 abandonment of Crane Pond Road in the town of 16 Schroon. 17 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: 18 Explanation, please. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Stafford, we're on Calendar Number 25. Your 21 Senate Bill is 619. Explanation has been asked 22 for by Senator Oppenheimer. 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes, Mr. 1 President. I apologize for the delay. We were 2 talking about subcommittees. 3 This, again, is a Crane Pond Road 4 bill which we have all heard about, and the road 5 has been there and it was decided it should be 6 closed due to being near a wilderness area. 7 I have explained to all of you 8 for a number of years I've appreciated the bill 9 passing. This wilderness area, you can stand in 10 the middle of it and hear the cars on the 11 Northway. So I suggest maybe we're not in the 12 wilderness that we're talking about. We are 13 not. This will allow people to be in -- to get 14 into this area, people who could not get in 15 otherwise if the road does not remain open. 16 And I assure you, Mr. President, 17 that it certainly makes sense, and it makes 18 sense for the people who live in the area and 19 those who can enjoy the area from other parts of 20 the state. 21 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Madam 22 President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 1 recognizes Senator Oppenheimer. 2 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Oh, Mr. 3 President. 4 We've discussed this in past 5 years, and I think it's the precedent here that 6 has us most disturbed who are interested in 7 preserving the wilderness of the Adirondacks. 8 The Pharaoh Mountain area, which is the area 9 we're talking about, is classified as wilderness 10 in the State Land Master Plan; and, therefore, 11 it doesn't allow within this area any motorized 12 vehicles. 13 Approximately half of the forest 14 preserve land in the Adirondacks is considered 15 wild forest; and in wild forests, motor vehicles 16 are permitted. In this area, the State Master 17 Plan says that wilderness areas should have no 18 vehicles. That's why they're wilderness areas. 19 We're attempting to protect our wilderness 20 areas. 21 By permitting the motorized 22 intrusion, what we are doing is we are just 23 flaunting -- flaunting the law, the law that 1 says that in the State Land Master Plan -- in 2 that plan, there should be no motorized vehicles 3 in specific areas, and so I would urge all of 4 you to vote against this as it is against our 5 very law. 6 Thank you. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 8 recognizes Senator Stafford. 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr. 10 President. Senator Oppenheimer and I are having 11 our annual visit. 12 This has nothing to do with your 13 position, Senator. It is misclassified by 14 someone who sat there at a desk and said this is 15 a wilderness area, and I suggest a mistake has 16 been made. People have driven in the area for 17 years. The town maintains the road. 18 And when I suggest to you that - 19 again, I emphasize -- you can stand in the 20 middle of this area, and I have many times, and 21 hear the cars on the Northway, this isn't what 22 wilderness area is all about; and we are 23 correcting the situation by passing this 1 legislation. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 3 recognizes Senator LaValle. 4 SENATOR LAVALLE: Thank you, Mr. 5 President. 6 Senator Stafford has been before 7 this house with this legislation and tried to 8 represent a point of view of the people back 9 home; and as he said, where at one point this 10 road was misidentified, what he is trying to do 11 -- and it's really a shame that he has to go 12 through the legislative process to make this 13 accommodation. 14 And I chose to rise today to 15 speak on this bill because having passed the 16 Pine Barrens Preservation Act and the fact that 17 back home, we have established a process that 18 allows people to -- back home in the county of 19 Suffolk -- to sit around a table and to speak to 20 one another about how they can accommodate 21 protection of the environment but at the same 22 time accommodate reasonable uses of land by the 23 people who live in and around it. 1 And so, I hope that during the 2 session that we take a look at and spend our 3 energies at protecting our environment but at 4 the same time not putting our heads in the sand 5 to turn away from practical, reasonable uses of 6 the land that the good Lord gave to us. 7 And what I believe we're doing is 8 setting the pace back in the county of Suffolk 9 and breaking through some new, to use a pun, 10 territory in terms of land use policy; and 11 hopefully, maybe some of those methodologies and 12 techniques that we're using in Suffolk County 13 might be brought up to the Adirondacks to allow 14 for more reasonable debate to take place between 15 those who live in and around the land and those 16 who want to protect it. 17 It's a shame that those of us who 18 have as a high priority the environment might be 19 judged through some rating process on whether we 20 favor our environmentalists or not on this 21 vote. But I am going to vote with Senator 22 Stafford on this because I think that processes 23 have been used and abused and I think we really 1 need to bring people together to have a 2 reasonable dialogue on this. So I'm going to 3 support you, Senator Stafford. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 5 recognizes Senator Paterson. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 7 President. Would Senator Stafford yield for a 8 question? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Stafford, do you yield to Senator Paterson? 11 SENATOR STAFFORD: (Indicating 12 yes.) 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 yields. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 16 Stafford, first of all, as an old friend of 17 mine, I hope you will take me to the Crane Pond 18 Lake some time, to Crane Pond Road, because - 19 SENATOR STAFFORD: We will take 20 you right in the area, and we'll go to the 21 Crane, Goose, Oxshoe, Bird, Horseshoe and Crab 22 pond, and I hope you will enjoy it. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I 1 also hope you'll assure me that I'm coming back. 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: We'll make 3 sure that we'll come back because we will have 4 the right clothing, and we'll also have a guide. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: My question, 6 Mr. President, for Senator Stafford is that the 7 Joint Legislative Committee on Natural Resources 8 who basically authored the Environmental Land 9 Master Plan, their prerogative in this case was 10 to declare this area a wilderness area, and 11 should it be that they have erred in that 12 judgment, Senator Stafford -- and we have an 13 individual case that we're discussing right now, 14 but I also notice that Calendar Number 27 15 relates to a bill that you are submitting which 16 is really the generic form of this bill in which 17 I would imagine you are trying to protect this 18 problem from occurring before; that where a town 19 voices an objection - 20 SENATOR STAFFORD: Right. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: -- to a road 22 that runs through the town, you want it not to 23 be closed if the town is actually objecting. 1 So my question is, then how can 2 we have viable environmental planning, how can 3 we have land use planning policy as it would be 4 set forth in a plan as has been issued in the 5 Environmental Land Master Plan if we're going to 6 circumvent it in all individual cases where a 7 local town is objecting? 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: That's an 9 excellent question, and I would share with all 10 of my colleagues that the interesting point - 11 and I think even Senator Leichter will have to 12 agree with me. When we sit down with the people 13 of the Adirondacks and really talk with them, 14 explain various points of view, do your best to 15 have reason prevail, sometimes your people 16 living there will be even stricter - 17 interestingly enough, stricter than some of the 18 plan is now but maybe have differences like this 19 here today, have differences and want it 20 changed. 21 I would suggest that going back 22 -- and I remember when this master plan was 23 passed, and I have to share this with you 1 because we're all people. That's how things 2 pass. You put up a plan. It depends on the 3 ability of people, those who can lobby, and I 4 know the two people who lobbied for this to be 5 wilderness -- and many, many people were against 6 this; they said that it should be wild forest - 7 and they prevailed. We said they were wrong 8 then. We say they are wrong now. 9 But I would share with you -- I 10 would share with you one of the biggest mistakes 11 that was made back in 1971 and '72 was that the 12 people really weren't consulted enough. These 13 people really believe in the area they live in. 14 Interestingly enough, they don't want a lot of 15 people coming around into these areas, and you 16 can really talk with them; and I would hope that 17 sometime, when we have a revision of the master 18 plan, that the local people will have much more 19 of a say in what is now in use or in law. 20 I could name about ten areas that 21 can be debated. Now, some of you are going to 22 be shocked to hear this. I can name over ten 23 areas that should be wilderness that aren't, 1 which is very interesting, but they felt they 2 couldn't do it then. So, again, it's reason, to 3 sit down and communicate; and the people in 4 Schroon Lake that live on Route 9, they have a 5 beautiful lake there. I might add -- I know 6 it's getting late, but that's a lake that I have 7 seen come back. When I was here my first year 8 -- I no longer mention the number of years. 9 It was a number of years ago -- I tried to swim 10 one time on the way home and you couldn't. You 11 couldn't swim in Schroon lake, and now you can. 12 That's an example of some of the things we've 13 done. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 15 Senator. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 18 recognizes Senator Leichter. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 20 Paterson, would you yield to me for just one 21 minute, please, because Senator Stafford 22 mentioned my name, and I want to -- I want to 23 bear witness to what he said. He spoke about 1 the reasonable people in the Adirondacks, and I 2 have been fortunate to have a home there, and I 3 want to say they are extremely reasonable. They 4 are just wonderful, fine, fair-minded people, 5 and I want to say their representative is 6 eminently reasonable, but even reasonable people 7 sometimes, being fallible, can make a mistake, 8 which I think is the case now, but it in no way 9 detracts from the fact that the people there are 10 reasonable and their representative is eminently 11 reasonable. 12 Thank you. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 14 any other Senator wishing to speak on the issue? 15 Senator Oppenheimer. 16 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: This is a 17 question for Senator Stafford. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Stafford, do you yield? 20 The Senator yields. 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you. 22 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Senator 23 Stafford, you are an eminently reasonable man, 1 and you have just said some reasonable things; 2 and prior to that, some other things have been 3 said. We who consider ourselves environment 4 alists do not want to be perceived as anti 5 economic development, obviously. We need jobs 6 as well as we need protection of the 7 environment. 8 What you said that interested me 9 very much was that you had thought of some areas 10 that could be called wilderness, where certain 11 areas, you think, like this limited road, are 12 prime for not being wilderness. But what do you 13 think the possibility is of sitting down and 14 discussing perhaps a give and a take, this for 15 that? 16 SENATOR STAFFORD: I think we 17 should. By all means, we should discuss. I 18 would say this, that when I had "torts" in law 19 school, Judge McGruder was our professor, and he 20 was from Harvard, and we discussed for one hour 21 what the reasonable man was. When we left, no 22 one knew. So it just shows we can all differ, 23 but I certainly will be glad to go over some of 1 these with you. 2 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you, 3 Senator. I think it's something that we might 4 be able to see if there is any avenue that could 5 be pursued at this time; and I think on the side 6 of Hunter College on Park Avenue and 68th 7 Street, it's written, "We may at different times 8 in different conditions disagree; however, it 9 can always be said that we are at heart trying 10 to arrive at the truth." So it is true that 11 while we disagree, there certainly is a lot of 12 commonality there and a lot of honesty there 13 even though there is disagreement. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 15 recognizes Senator Dollinger. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 17 you, Mr. President, just one short question of 18 Senator Stafford. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Stafford, do you yield to Senator Dollinger? 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 Senator yields. 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I voted 2 against this in the past. I guess my question 3 is why can't the state land management plan be 4 changed to exclude this area? What is the 5 process? Is there a process for doing that? 6 SENATOR STAFFORD: It would have 7 to change the plan; and we're, in effect, 8 changing the plan with this law. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But is - 10 again, through you, Mr. President. 11 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is there 13 another process by which -- obviously that 14 process in the early 1970s resulted in a 15 wilderness declaration. Is there some process 16 by which that could be repealed now other than 17 through this legislative body? 18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Good 19 question. It would be possible for -- and, 20 again, it's all changed now, but it used to be 21 the Bureau of Lands and Forests, but I don't 22 know exactly what that's called in DEC now, but 23 periodically they review it, and they can come 1 up with suggestions. But, again, we would have 2 to change the plan or if we passed a new plan, 3 you know. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I guess my 5 suggestion is, Mr. President -- for procedural 6 reasons, I will continue to vote against this, 7 but if the town of Schroon in that wonderful 8 part of this state was wrongfully classified as 9 a wilderness, there is obviously a different 10 person on the second floor now. I assume there 11 may be different people in certain parts of the 12 state bureaucracy who may be interested in 13 looking at amendments to the wilderness plan, 14 and they could re-examine the logic out at 15 Pharaoh Lake, and the logic which I've heard 16 here today may be eminently persuasive when they 17 hear and, as a consequence, we may not have to 18 do it here. It could be done through the 19 process by which the initial wilderness 20 designation was put on; it could then be 21 repealed. 22 I would encourage the Senator to 23 take his advocacy there rather than have us 1 intervening in the process at this stage. 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: I compliment 3 you on your perceptiveness, because it was on 4 the western side of the Adirondacks where there 5 are many, many people from Rochester who have 6 homes and I mean large tracts of lands like the 7 Braniff tract, many of them are reasons why it 8 changed on the second floor. So I think they 9 are going to be hearing. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Dollinger on the bill. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'd just 13 encourage Senator Stafford to take that advocacy 14 on behalf of my constituents and Senator Jones' 15 constituents. Certainly those changes may bring 16 about the kind of change that the Senator seeks 17 without going through this body. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 19 Secretary will read the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 23 roll. 1 (The Secretary called the roll.) 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 3 the results when tabulated. 4 Chair recognizes Senator 5 Oppenheimer to explain her vote. 6 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you, 7 Mr. President. That took some doing. 8 I just want to say that I 9 certainly don't want to turn a deaf ear. I feel 10 there are areas that can be discussed. I just 11 feel that as long as the law is the law and we 12 have wilderness areas declared in our State Land 13 Master Plan that we have to -- as long as the 14 law is written as it is, we must vote against 15 this now, but there are alternatives, and I am 16 looking forward to exploring them. 17 I vote no. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 19 Secretary will announce the results. 20 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 21 the negative on Calendar Number 25 are Senators 22 Abate, Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Goodman, 23 Jones, Leichter, Levy, Onorato, Oppenheimer, 1 Stachowski, also Senator Leibell. Ayes 42, nays 2 12. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 4 is passed. 5 Senator Johnson. 6 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: That 8 completes the controversial calendar, sir. 9 SENATOR JOHNSON: Any 10 housekeeping at the desk, Mr. President? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 indicates there is none. 13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 14 then there being no further business, I move we 15 adjourn until Tuesday, January 31st, 1995, at 16 3:00 p.m. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 18 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until the 19 last day of January, tomorrow, at 3:00 p.m. 20 (Whereupon, at 4:35 p.m., the 21 Senate adjourned.) 22 23