Thursday, March 30, 1995

3213 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 March 30, 1995 10 11:02 a.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 3214 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 3 will come to order. Ask the members to find 4 their places. 5 Ask everyone to rise and join 6 with me in saying the Pledge of Allegiance. 7 (Whereupon, the Senate and those 8 present joined in the Pledge of Allegiance to 9 the Flag.) 10 In the absence of clergy, may we 11 bow our heads in a moment of silence. 12 (Whereupon, there was a moment of 13 silence.) 14 Reading of the Journal. 15 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 16 Wednesday, March 29. The Senate met pursuant to 17 adjournment, Senator DeFrancisco in the chair. 18 The Journal of Tuesday, March 28, was read and 19 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing 21 no objection, the Journal stands approved as 22 read. 23 Presentation of petitions. 3215 1 Messages from the Assembly. 2 Messages from the Governor. 3 Reports of standing committees. 4 Reports of select committees. 5 Communications and reports from 6 state officers. 7 Motions and resolutions. 8 Chair recognizes Senator 9 DeFrancisco. 10 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Mr. 11 President, on page number 27, I offer the 12 following amendments to Calendar Number 238, 13 Senate Print 1966, and I ask that the bill 14 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 16 Amendments are received and adopted. The bill 17 will retain its place on the Third Reading 18 Calendar. 19 Senator Bruno, that brings us to 20 the calendar, sir. 21 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 22 can we at this time take up the noncontroversial 23 calendar? 3216 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 2 will read the noncontroversial calendar. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 174, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill 425, an act 5 to amend the Business Corporation Law. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 8 bill aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 211, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill 625, an 11 act to amend the Town Law, in relation to 12 increase the authorization of towns to 13 appropriate monies for observance of public 14 holidays. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 16 will read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll.) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 33. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3217 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 219, by Senator Present, Senate Bill 2311, an 4 act to amend the Economic Development Law. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6 will read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 33. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 222, by Senator Velella, Senate Bill 2764, an 17 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 18 reciprocal insurers. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This 22 act shall take effect on the 60th day. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 3218 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 33. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 226, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill 1445, an act 8 to amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation 9 to authorizing and requiring the Metropolitan 10 Transportation Authority. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 13 bill aside. 14 SENATOR BRUNO: Will you lay 15 aside number 222 also, please, Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 motion is to reconsider the vote by which 18 Calendar Number 222 passed the house. 19 The Secretary will call the roll 20 on reconsideration. 21 (The Secretary called the roll on 22 reconsideration.) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 33. 3219 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 2 bill aside. 3 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read Calendar Number 226. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 226, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill 1445, an act 8 to amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation 9 to authorizing and requiring the Metropolitan 10 Transportation Authority. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 12 last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 228, by Senator Wright, Senate Bill 3186, an act 23 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 3220 1 relation to allowing commercial vehicles to have 2 distinctive plates. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 4 last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect on the 60th day. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 12 is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 232, by Senator Sears, Senate Bill 1321, an act 15 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to the 16 unauthorized use of an emergency vehicle. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 18 last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect on the first day of 21 November. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 23 roll. 3221 1 (The Secretary called the roll.) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 4 is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 233, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill 1437, an act 7 to amend the Penal Law. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 9 last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 11 act shall take effect on the first day of 12 November. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll.) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 282, by Senator Libous, Senate Print Number 21 3571, an act to amend Chapter 720 of the Laws of 22 1979, amending the Mental Hygiene Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 3222 1 last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 Senator Bruno, that completes the 11 noncontroversial calendar, sir. 12 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 13 can we now take up the controversial calendar. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will read the controversial calendar. 16 THE SECRETARY: On page 22, 17 Calendar Number 174, by Senator Skelos, Senate 18 Print 425, an act to amend the Business 19 Corporation Law, in relation to corporate 20 finance, proxies, powers of directory and 21 mergers. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3223 1 Skelos, an explanation has been asked for. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for 3 the day. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 5 bill aside for the day. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 222, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 2764, an 8 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 9 reciprocal insurers. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 12 bill aside for the day. 13 Senator Bruno, that completes the 14 controversial calendar. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. 16 I'm going to suggest that we recess and 17 reconvene at 2:00 o'clock, and ask that we have 18 a meeting of Finance at 1:45 in Room 332, and 19 that the Republicans will have an immediate 20 conference -- "immediate" meaning by that clock 21 11:20. 11:20. That gives people time to do 22 what they have to do and be on time, Mr. 23 President, and I hear some voices on my left who 3224 1 are concurring. 2 Thank you. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Mendez. 5 SENATOR MENDEZ: There will be an 6 immediate Minority conference. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 8 will be an immediate meeting, a Minority 9 conference in the Minority Conference Room. 10 There will be an immediate 11 meeting of the Majority Conference in the 12 Majority Conference Room, 332, commencing at 13 11:20. 14 There will be a Finance Committee 15 meeting at 1:45, and the Senate stands in recess 16 until 2:00 p.m. this afternoon. 17 (Whereupon, at 11:10 a.m., Senate 18 recessed.) 19 (Whereupon, at 2:24 p.m., Senate 20 reconvened.) 21 22 23 3225 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 2 will come to order. Ask the members to find 3 their places. 4 Chair recognizes Senator Bruno. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. 6 Can we return to reports of standing committees, 7 and I believe there is a report at the desk from 8 the Finance Committee. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You are 10 correct, Senator Bruno. 11 We will return to reports of 12 standing committees. Secretary will read. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 14 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 15 following bills: 16 Senate Print 1550A, Budget Bill, 17 an act to amend -- making appropriations for the 18 support of government (State Operations Budget). 19 Senate Print 1758, Budget Bill, 20 an act to amend the Labor Law, in relation to 21 boiler inspection requirements. 22 Senate Print 1803, Budget Bill, 23 an act to amend the Civil Service Law, in 3226 1 relation to authorizing the payment of 2 additional compensation to certain employees in 3 the Office of General Services. 4 Senate Print 1810, Budget Bill, 5 an act to repeal Section 28 of Chapter 169 of 6 the Laws of 1994, relating to certain provisions 7 related to the 1994-95 state budget. 8 Senate Print 1830, Budget Bill, 9 an act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 10 corporate mergers, consolidations and 11 acquisitions and repealing certain provisions of 12 the Tax Law. 13 Senate Print 1836, Budget Bill, 14 an act to amend the Public Authorities Law, the 15 New York State Medical Care Facilities Finance 16 Agency Act and the Facilities Development 17 Corporation Act. 18 And, Senate Print 1843, Budget 19 Bill, an act to amend the Tax Law, in relation 20 to reflecting the repeal of Article 15 of the 21 Tax Law. 22 All bills ordered directly for 23 third reading. 3227 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 2 objection, all bills are directed to third 3 reading. 4 Senator Bruno. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. 6 At this time, I would like to call up Calendar 7 Number 342. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 9 will read Calendar Number 342. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 342, Budget Bill, Senate Print 1550A, making 12 appropriations for the support of government. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 14 recognizes Senator Bruno. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, is 16 there a message of necessity from the Governor 17 on Calendar Number 342? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 19 informs me that there is, Senator Bruno. 20 SENATOR BRUNO: I move we accept 21 the message at this time. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 motion is to accept the message of necessity at 3228 1 the desk. 2 All those in favor, signify by 3 saying aye. 4 (Response of "Aye.") 5 Opposed, nay. 6 (There was no response.) 7 The message is accepted. 8 Secretary will read the last 9 section. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation, 11 Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Stafford, Senator Paterson has asked for an 14 explanation. 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: Very well, 16 thank you. 17 Mr. President. We are very 18 pleased, again, to be here in the Senate as our 19 leader has said so many times -- but I don't 20 think it can be said enough -- in the light of 21 day, doing our job and passing a budget. 22 To be very accurate, this is our 23 third major Budget Bill, and we call this bill 3229 1 year after year "State Operations," and it is 2 one of the major bills in support of 3 government. 4 I will share with you some of the 5 highlights we feel that are in the bill and, no 6 doubt, there will possibly be some questions or 7 discussion. 8 I, by no means, am trying to make 9 light of what we're doing but I would emphasize 10 here today if we ever should come here with a 11 band and have the band playing and then have a 12 very, very important announcement, it would be 13 the band would play and then I would say, "The 14 state fiscal year 1995-96 Executive Budget 15 recommends 21.4 billion in appropriation 16 authority, a decline of 476 million, or 2.2 17 percent, over the current fiscal year. Actual 18 spending behind these appropriations is 19 estimated at 11.7 billion, a decline of 133 20 million, or 1.1 percent, over Senate fiscal year 21 1994-95." 22 Now, the proposed State 23 Operations budget which we have before us here 3230 1 today does reflect agency restructuring and 2 consolidation in areas such as Mental Health, 3 State University of New York and Corrections. 4 In addition, the Governor abolishes the State 5 Energy Office and the Commission on Cable 6 Television. These efforts will place the 7 State's fiscal house in order creating a 8 stronger economic environment for all New 9 Yorkers. And I can't, again, emphasize enough 10 but I think we have to say it and say it again. 11 We are spending less -- yes, we are very 12 concerned that essential services are delivered, 13 but we're realizing we can't spend more than we 14 take in. 15 Now, the State Operations budget 16 also is amended to include an additional 14.2 17 million in cuts and 116.9 million in 18 restorations, reflecting 90 million in aid to 19 the State University of New York and 17 million 20 -- no, and CUNY, excuse me. State University 21 of New York and the City University of New York, 22 that's 90 million, and 17 million for 23 Corrections. Remaining restorations include 4 3231 1 million in Mental Hygiene and 4 million for 2 various programs in the Department of 3 Environmental Conservation. 4 Now, I mentioned amendments. I 5 would like to go over some of them, and I also 6 am reading relatively slowly or am talking 7 slowly because I want to make sure that we make 8 things clear. 9 The reappropriation of all 10 petroleum overcharge recovery funds in one year 11 to honor prior commitments by the Legislature 12 for energy efficient projects; in other words, 13 we will have these funds available so that they 14 can be refunded. I think we all have been - 15 had people contact us concerning that issue and 16 related issues. 17 A 24 million restoration to the 18 City of New York -- excuse me -- the City Uni 19 versity of New York to help achieve restructur 20 ing, productivity and efficiencies at senior 21 colleges and by reducing tuition requirements 22 and/or program reductions. 23 We also have an amendment, and it 3232 1 will provide for 86 million in the academic year 2 lump sum restoration to the State University of 3 New York to avert campus closures and to achieve 4 restructuring productivity and efficiencies by 5 reducing tuition requirements and for program 6 reduction. 7 We have another amendment, a 8 limitation on the Governor's second felony 9 offender sentencing reform proposals, resulting 10 in a restoration of 12.2 million to the state 11 financial plan, also 5 million of the proposed 12 20 million cut in prison programs is restored. 13 Another amendment, a 3 million 14 restoration to the fish and wildlife program in 15 the Department of Environmental Conservation. 16 We also have restorations in the 17 area of Mental Health, including 400,000 for the 18 Nathan Kline Institute and for the issuance - 19 for the Institute for Basic Research. 20 In addition, funding for the 21 following treatment centers is restored: 22 McPike, Blasdell, Creedmoor and VanDyke. I'm 23 sure many of you had visits from individuals, 3233 1 from clients, from staff, from relatives 2 concerning these programs and we, of course, 3 consider the programs very important. 4 We think, again, this is part of 5 our doing our job proposing a budget. We're 6 going to have a budget, and I certainly will be 7 more than pleased to answer any questions, and 8 I'm sure there will be some discussion. 9 Thank you, Mr. President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 11 recognizes Senator Paterson. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 13 may we recognize Senator Waldon, who would like 14 to vote at this time. 15 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, I 16 respectfully request unanimous consent to be 17 recorded in the negative on this bill because I 18 have to leave immediately to go to New York City 19 on a pressing matter. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Bruno. 22 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. 23 To accommodate the Senator, can you read the 3234 1 last section of the bill on Calendar 342? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect on the 180th day. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll.) 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Waldon, how do you vote? 11 SENATOR WALDON: No, Mr. 12 President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Waldon is recorded in the negative. The roll 15 call is withdrawn. 16 Senator Galiber. 17 SENATOR GALIBER: Thank you, Mr. 18 Chairman. I will be extremely brief on this 19 issue. 20 Mr. Chairman, there are just one 21 or two questions that I would like to ask you, 22 and they'll be short questions because I'm sure 23 that we have -- and we do, Mr. President, have a 3235 1 number of amendments which will probably cover 2 any questions that you might be willing to be 3 asked, and I'm sure you will be willing to 4 answer. 5 What concerns some of us, and 6 most of us, very frankly, is that even in the 7 bright, sunny day that we have that there was a 8 great deal of criticism with the former governor 9 about his one-shot deals or "one-shotters". 10 There was some discussion this year as to 11 whether we would go that route or not. It is my 12 understanding that there is a number of one 13 shots that we have here. Is that correct, 14 Senator? 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: I could just 16 say no, because there is none in this. But you 17 being a very good friend, I would say there are 18 such -- that you have such items, but they are 19 minimal in this year's budget as compared to 20 last. But there are none in this particular 21 piece of legislation. 22 SENATOR GALIBER: I thank you for 23 your friendship because I assume what goes with 3236 1 the friendship is a sense of candor on your 2 part. I have a list here that says $905 million 3 which is a total of one-shots. 4 SENATOR STAFFORD: Of course, 5 that's the revenue side and that's not actually 6 state operations, but I also would be very 7 pleased to sit down with you because I think we 8 have about a 400 million disagreement here, and 9 as I have found -- as I have found in working 10 with these budgets, I have found that things are 11 not as exact as I at one time thought they were, 12 but there are some. But, as I say, we are 13 working toward the day we will have none. 14 SENATOR GALIBER: I would, Mr. 15 Chairman, Senator, suggest that as we plan these 16 matters out, there must of necessity be a 17 financial plan of some sort; and in that 18 context, one-shots that are mentioned here 19 certainly are within the frame of our financial 20 -- or should be in the frame of our financial 21 plan. I'm sure you agree with that. 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: Again, that 23 was a short question. Would you ask it again, 3237 1 please? 2 SENATOR GALIBER: I was 3 suggesting that to be prudent and responsible as 4 we both are -- in fact, all the members here 5 are. We just play games from time to time, but 6 we are responsible legislators -- that there 7 need be a financial plan in place before we can 8 discuss some of these matters, and I would 9 assume that the memorandum that I have is one 10 which goes to the foundation of a budget which 11 is a financial plan. 12 Built into that financial plan is 13 a number of items that I have categorized or my 14 staff has categorized as "one-shotters." I 15 won't go through the entire list. It comes to 16 $905 million. The two that I'm deeply concerned 17 about is the transfer -- we call it raiding; I 18 guess that's a vulgar term to use -- but raiding 19 of the MTOA and the transfer from pension 20 supplementary funds. Those two, I would like 21 you to comment. 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would say 23 that many of these that are within this category 3238 1 I would say there is a difference of opinion. 2 It is in the plan that this money will be used 3 for the restructuring of state government, which 4 will, in turn, make it possible for us to have 5 less spending, and that is how they are being 6 used in this plan. 7 SENATOR GALIBER: Thank you, 8 Senator. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 10 recognizes Senator Dollinger. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 12 President. Will Senator Stafford yield for a 13 couple of questions? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Stafford, do you yield to Senator Dollinger? 16 Senator yields. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'd like to 18 follow up Senator Galiber's point about the 19 pension supplementation fund. As I understand 20 it, this budget incorporates $110 million from 21 the pension supplementation fund. Isn't that 22 correct, Senator? 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Pardon me? 3239 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: This budget 2 takes $110 million from the pension supplemen 3 tation fund that is established for state 4 employees and puts it into the general fund, 5 isn't that correct, for operations of state 6 government? 7 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, first, I 8 would point out -- point out that this bill does 9 not authorize such. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Excuse me, 11 Mr. President. The financial plan necessary to 12 run the state operations includes taking $110 13 million out of the pension supplementation fund 14 to do that. 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: As I mentioned 16 earlier, we have a few of these. But what they 17 are being used for is to provide funding for the 18 restructuring of state government which will, in 19 effect, result in less spending in the future. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through you, 21 Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are you 23 asking the Senator to yield again? 3240 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, please. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Stafford, do you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 continues to yield. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The purpose 8 of that reduction in spending is to fund a tax 9 cut for the wealthiest people in this state. So 10 is it a fair comment, Senator, to say that we're 11 taking money out of a pot of money that was de 12 signed by this Legislature to help the poorest 13 state employees, those who are currently 14 retired, who have no access to additional 15 income, and have small pensions from this 16 state? This fund was set up to supplement their 17 pensions, to give them more money, people who 18 had put their lives in working for this state. 19 We're going to take money out of that pot of 20 funds so that we can use it for state government 21 and hence give a tax cut to the wealthiest 22 people in the state. Isn't that a fair 23 statement, Senator? 3241 1 SENATOR STAFFORD: No. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Why not? 3 SENATOR STAFFORD: As I mentioned 4 earlier -- as I mentioned earlier, any tax 5 reductions, which we're very proud of, they are 6 not included in this bill that we are 7 considering. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But we've got 9 to reduce the cost of government. 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: Will you let 11 me answer? 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I apologize. 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: You should. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I did. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 16 SENATOR STAFFORD: You know, my 17 only point is I'll answer any questions and I 18 will stay here until 10:00 o'clock at night, and 19 I have never interrupted anybody on this floor, 20 and I'm not going to. 21 Ask your question again. 22 Mr. President, may we have the 23 question again? 3242 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Dollinger, would you like to repeat the 3 question? 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 5 President, my question was, we're taking money 6 out of the pension supplementation fund. We're 7 going to put it to cover the cost of 8 government. We're using part of that to reduce 9 the cost of government. We have to take it from 10 the pension supplementation fund because we want 11 to reduce taxes for the wealthiest people in 12 this state. So is it safe to say we're taking 13 money from the poorest people of this state, 14 $110 million of their money, and in essence 15 giving that $110 million to fund a tax cut for 16 the wealthiest people in this state? 17 SENATOR STAFFORD: First, I 18 apologize. We'll have to keep track today of 19 how many apologies we have. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, as long 21 as we get at the truth, Senator, I'm not worried 22 about apologies. 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: At least it 3243 1 keeps us interested in something anyway. 2 Now, answering your question, you 3 know, we're very proud of the program that we 4 have in reduction of taxes. 5 My friends, if we do not change 6 our tax structure and if we do not reduce our 7 taxes, we're going to have happen just what 8 happened in my district, and please let me 9 explain this one. We all relate to one another, 10 we're all concerned for one another when we see 11 these plants shutting down, these plants 12 leaving. 13 Ours is a relatively rural area 14 and we had what we called the Sheridan Iron 15 Works in the town of Champlain, which some of 16 the people here in the room I'm pretty sure 17 would know where it is. And for years and years 18 they did very fine foundry work and we developed 19 some very fine toolmakers in Champlain and, as a 20 matter of fact, I don't think there's hardly any 21 family that didn't have someone who didn't have 22 a relative affected. 23 Anyway, it was purchased. Things 3244 1 seemed to be going well. As a matter of fact, I 2 can tell you this. That plant built a machine 3 that made the TV Guide look like the Reader's 4 Digest. That's called object learning when you 5 explain things this way. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I appreciate 7 it. 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: You asked. 9 I'll finish. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I know. I 11 just want to get to the answer. 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I will 13 answer, I'm sure. So, anyway, we had 650 14 employees. In order to be able to have a plant 15 that would create and manufacture a company that 16 could make the TV Guide look like the Reader's 17 Digest -- and, by the way, they just put the 18 paper in. It was printed, everything went - 19 and it came out a book at the end. Many, many 20 engineers, and many people who, frankly, were 21 paid quite well. 22 But it came time for the company 23 to decide what they were going to do in 3245 1 restructuring their company, which everybody 2 seems to be doing, and they took 650 jobs out of 3 our area, out of New York, and that's the type 4 of problem that has brought this state to its 5 knees. 6 And that's why we've got to make 7 sure we have tax reductions in all areas, and 8 we're not taking money from anyone. When we 9 have this program, and when we continue these 10 through -- these cuts through the years, our 11 business is going to increase. People are going 12 to have jobs. What we're going to do, Senator, 13 if we don't -- as I have explained many times, 14 if we continue to take away from the locomotive 15 that really provides all of these services, 16 provides everything for our people, everything, 17 if we continue to kill that locomotive, we will 18 have nothing and we will certainly hurt all of 19 our people. 20 So my answer to you is, 21 obviously, I am not in agreement with what you 22 said. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 3246 1 President. On the bill - 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Dollinger, on the bill. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- since I 5 took a lot of answer to get to that. 6 One is it seems to me, although I 7 have to strongly disagree with Senator Stafford, 8 what you are actually doing here is you are 9 taking $110 million out of an account that was 10 dedicated for the poorest people in this state, 11 people who gave their lives to work as public 12 employees and who have little, tiny pensions, 13 people who desperately need some help, and 14 you're taking that money and you're going to put 15 it into the General Fund to fund State Ops so 16 that you don't have to take $110 million from 17 the wealthiest taxpayers in this state to be 18 able to do the same thing. You are funding a 19 tax cut by taking it out of the pension 20 supplementation account. We're taking money 21 from our poorest people who gave their lives to 22 work for this state and you are giving it to a 23 tax cut for wealthy people. 3247 1 If, rhetorically, someone who was 2 going to vote for this bill can explain the 3 sense of that to me, please do so. Take it as 4 an open question, open invitation. Stand up and 5 tell me how you can justify taking it from those 6 people who are retired and living on pensions, 7 in some cases of less than $7,000 a year, and 8 giving it to people who are making more than 9 $50,000 or $100,000 a year? Does that make one 10 iota of fairness, one tiny speck of fairness? 11 Please stand up and justify it. Open 12 invitation. Take the mike. It's like a Karaoke 13 night. Stand up and sing the song for me and 14 let's hear it. 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: All right. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, if I 17 ask a specific question, you can come back. You 18 can take your time in the debate to respond. 19 SENATOR STAFFORD: You said, 20 "Take the mike." 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I will. You 22 can have the mike after I turn it off. We're 23 also doing that with the Metropolitan Transit. 3248 1 We're taking money out of the Metropolitan 2 Transit account, $220 million. We're taking it 3 out of operations in the transit account. Why? 4 Because we may have to raise fares for people 5 who ride the transit in New York City, poor 6 people in some cases who can't afford cars, and 7 we're going to tell them that they're going to 8 have to pay more in transit fees. Why? Because 9 we have to fund a tax cut for wealthy people who 10 can afford to buy cars. 11 No. That's what you're telling 12 them today. That's the financial picture that 13 comes out of this State Operations budget. 14 What are we also taking money out 15 of? The Environmental Assistance Fund. You 16 remember that. This house voted to set up that 17 fund to dedicate resources to buy environment 18 ally sensitive lands, to help buy the pine 19 barrens, to help buy land in the Adirondacks, to 20 help buy land in the Finger Lakes, so that all 21 the people in this state can enjoy an environ 22 ment, but we're not going to do that. We're 23 taking $23 million out of the Environmental 3249 1 Assistance Fund to fund a tax cut for wealthy 2 people who make more than $100,000, who have 3 vacation homes, who have access to the dollars 4 to fly to Bermuda or wherever. They can take 5 their own vacations. What about people who need 6 more parkland in this state? You are taking 7 their money away from them, their tax dollars 8 away from them, to fund a tax cut for the rich. 9 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Goodman. 12 SENATOR GOODMAN: Will the 13 Senator yield for a question, please? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Will you 15 yield to a question from Senator Goodman? 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 17 President, as soon as I'm finished, I'd be glad 18 to yield to a question about any one of the 19 issues. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 refuses to yield at this time, Senator Goodman. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The final 23 piece of this that's included in this budget is 3250 1 the one I also don't understand. There $115 2 million in this, or there is anticipated $115 3 million for the new introduction on the road to 4 what I believe will some day be casino gambling 5 in this state, and that's the creation of the 6 quick-draw game, Keno. There is $13 million in 7 here for the development of a quick lottery, for 8 the quick pick for the Keno machines. One 9 member of this house has described it as "video 10 crack"; that we will create an entire generation 11 that does nothing but pick numbers out of a 12 machine and wait 10 minutes for a response. 13 We're moving down the road to the 14 possibility of casino gambling. We're 15 increasing gambling in this state. We're laying 16 the foundation for Keno right here. That is 17 another one of the shots that goes into this 18 financial plan. 19 We have -- and Senator Galiber is 20 absolutely correct. There are nine of almost a 21 billion dollars of one-shot revenues here. 22 We're raiding every fund that we can find. 23 We're taking it away from the poorest people in 3251 1 this state, from the people who don't have 2 means, the people who don't have access to 3 money, the people who have worked in this 4 state. Our Pension Supplementation Fund, we're 5 raiding that. We're raiding funds for the 6 Metropolitan Transit. We're raiding funds for 7 the Love Canal settlement. Right out there in 8 Buffalo, we set up a settlement because we got 9 more money. It was designed to help in 10 remediation of environmental problems. We're 11 taking money out of that fund. 12 We found every possible fund we 13 could find. All those things we set up because 14 we determined they were in the public interest, 15 and we're closing the accounts. We're taking 16 the money out. Why? To fund a tax cut for the 17 wealthiest people in this state. 18 Now, Senator Goodman, Senator 19 Stafford, please take the mike. Explain to me 20 how that's just and fair. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 22 any other Senator wishing to speak on this 23 bill? 3252 1 Senator Leichter. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 3 I think we made the broad points on this bill. 4 I just want to respond to what has become the 5 mantra of the majority in this house, any aspect 6 of the budget, any aspect of your so-called re 7 form measures on the environment, environmental 8 regulations or the administrative procedures or 9 welfare, and so on, we're always met with this, 10 "We are going to reenergize the economy of this 11 state," and nobody states it more forcefully 12 than my good friend Senator Stafford, and I 13 assume, in some respects, we can't disagree that 14 we would like to see the economy of the state 15 improve. 16 But what is totally lacking in 17 your presentation is any sort of economic basis 18 for what you are saying, any sort of analysis, 19 any sort of empirical evidence, that by putting 20 in certain tax cuts that for most citizens are 21 going to amount to less than $100 or $200 a year 22 that this in some way is going to energize the 23 economy of this state. 3253 1 As I said in another context, do 2 you believe that factories in Bangladesh are 3 going to close and move to New York State or 4 factories in North Carolina are going to close? 5 There is no economic rhyme or reason to what you 6 are doing, and we had an example of the economic 7 theories that you are proposing, and that's the 8 Reagan years, years that economists as they look 9 back on it, years that people who make social 10 analysis look back on it, years that anybody 11 with their eyes open when you look back on it 12 has to admit was a total economic disaster, this 13 whole idea of trickle-down economics. 14 And that's what it all comes down 15 to, the idea that if we make the rich even 16 richer that it's going to help all the people; 17 that somehow or other that's going to bring in 18 the tide and all the boats are going to be 19 lifted. It just doesn't work, and what we're 20 doing is seriously undermining and hurting the 21 economic climate in this state in so many ways. 22 What we're doing to the City 23 University and to the State University is 3254 1 appalling. What we're doing to the educational 2 system of this state is appalling. What we're 3 doing to the highways and the transportation 4 system of this state is appalling. What we're 5 doing to our integrity and our credibility where 6 we have promised the localities of this state, 7 "You go out; you make school repairs; we will 8 pay you," where we made promises to every 9 locality in this state and they were 10 well-reasoned promises, and the localities 11 responded to these promises, and then we say, 12 "We're not going to do it." 13 Senator Dollinger is absolutely 14 correct -- to set up a fund for pension supple 15 mentation, and then to try to raid that fund. 16 Thank God, we've got a Comptroller in this state 17 who has a sense of integrity and he will pursue 18 legal steps to protect the pensioners. That's 19 their money. How can you do this or to raid the 20 environmental -- the fund for the environment or 21 the other funds? I don't have to list them 22 again. 23 And the big joke is that we had 3255 1 this promised by the Governor, "We will not have 2 any one-shots. The gimmicks are over." Now we 3 look at it, and we see a budget that is stuffed 4 with gimmicks. What sort of approach is that? 5 What is the great new government that we were 6 promised, and when you look at it -- and we see 7 that we have a budget that is full of these 8 gimmicks and a budget that fails the people of 9 the State of New York and a budget that's 10 premised on false economic theory? 11 But I just want to say that I 12 don't think you can fool all the people all the 13 time. Abe Lincoln said it best, "You can fool 14 some of the people all the time, and you can 15 fool all the people some of the time, but you 16 can't fool all the people all the time." And 17 this mantra of getting up on every special 18 interest legislation, every bill that you have 19 that carries out the doctrine of the far right, 20 ideologically-driven bills, and to say, "This is 21 what's needed for the economic well being of the 22 State of New York," it's not going to wash; and 23 the reason it isn't going to wash is because it 3256 1 ain't so. 2 This is not going to help the 3 State of New York. This is going to hurt the 4 State of New York. This is a bad budget. It is 5 badly premised. It's badly based. It's the 6 wrong approach for the State of New York. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Paterson. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 10 President. Would Senator Stafford yield for a 11 question? 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Stafford yields, Senator Paterson. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 16 Senator Stafford. 17 I notice that in the legislation, 18 I believe that it deletes all funding for the 19 Motor Voter Program that we had in New York, and 20 I was wondering why we would want to do anything 21 that would limit the number of people that would 22 have an opportunity to register to vote? 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: I apologize 3257 1 for the delay here, but I wanted to make sure I 2 had all the information, the correct 3 information. 4 I remember very well when this 5 was being debated in Washington, and I know that 6 many people were saying, and I believe some 7 officials of our state were saying even though 8 they agreed with it -- you know some do; some 9 don't, obviously -- I remember them saying, you 10 know, they are giving us this job to do, 11 unfunded mandate, here we go, and really we 12 don't have the funds to really administer the 13 program, and you probably saw that also in the 14 press within the last couple of weeks. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Would Senator 16 continue to yield? 17 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 continues to yield. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, my 21 understanding is that this is a federal mandate; 22 and regardless of what the federal government 23 does in terms of funding -- that's a good 3258 1 point. Maybe it's something that our Senators 2 and our Congresspersons have to take up with the 3 federal government, but just in terms of the 4 jurisdictional properties of what we're talking 5 about here, aren't they really telling us that 6 this is something that we should fund? 7 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I think 8 you are stating it very, very well that they 9 said, "We have this program and you should fund 10 it," and we're saying that we have problems with 11 funding it. We don't have the funding; and 12 until we receive the funding, we don't feel it's 13 something we should be doing. I think there is 14 going to be, obviously, a legal question unless 15 there is a solution. I understand that both 16 houses of the Congress are looking at it, and 17 this is one that I sort of had in mind because 18 for some reason I followed it last year when it 19 was being debated. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 21 Senator. On that part of the bill. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Paterson on the bill. 3259 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. In 2 about 17 or 18 days, there is a federal mandate 3 coming that commands me to pay my income taxes, 4 and they are telling me to pay it, but I don't 5 have the money. And if I don't, I guess I will 6 be in violation of federal law, and that's what 7 I'm sort of saying we as a state are; that by 8 doing this we're in violation of federal law. 9 Senator Stafford makes a good 10 point that right now with the economic crisis 11 that the state is in, it's a little difficult 12 for us to be burdened by something that the 13 federal government is telling us to do, but the 14 federal government has a policy; and that is, 15 that we in this country feel that we want to get 16 as many people on the ballots participating in 17 government. 18 We had 43 percent participation 19 in our presidential elections, 20 percent parti 20 cipation in our statewide Senate elections. We 21 have as little as 7 percent participation in 22 school board elections. There is a desire to 23 try to raise that number, increase registration, 3260 1 increase interest in voting; and what was good 2 about the Motor Voter bill is it is not aimed 3 toward any particular area. As a matter of 4 fact, it probably inures to the benefit of 5 people who are driving cars which automatically 6 puts a number of people at a disadvantage; and, 7 yet, the conforming with the policy is 8 specifically that it allows for the added 9 participation or at least the opportunity to 10 participate, and that's why we like the bill. 11 I want to move to another area 12 involving the SUNY and CUNY funding that Senator 13 Dollinger and Senator Galiber touched upon and 14 ask if Senator Stafford might yield for another 15 question. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Stafford, would you yield to a question from 18 Senator Paterson? 19 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 is happy to yield, Senator Paterson. 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: I didn't hear 23 the question. 3261 1 SENATOR PATERSON: That's all 2 right. We're restoring $86,000 to SUNY -- 86 3 million. I said 86,000, I'm sorry. And that is 4 out of an original 288 million that the 5 Governor's original proposal removes. We are 6 restoring 24 million to the City University out 7 of the original cut of approximately 160 8 million. Is there any reason why the State 9 University funding restoration is 30 percent, by 10 my calculations, and the City University 11 restoration is only 15 percent? 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: Actually, the 13 cut against SUNY originally was bigger than the 14 cut against CUNY. Another item I know is -- I 15 certainly realize that CUNY has the responsi 16 bility for their plant and their buildings, but 17 we have a situation or we all do -- we all have 18 it in CUNY and we have it in SUNY. There is a 19 situation where your plant is much more spread 20 out, in effect, more inefficient, and I think 21 that's one of the reasons and again it's 5 22 percent difference. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 3262 1 Senator. If Senator Stafford would continue to 2 yield. 3 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Stafford, do you continue to yield? 6 Senator Stafford, can I just make 7 a suggestion - 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes, you're 9 right. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I know 11 the recorder is probably having a hard time 12 hearing you. I know the other members who are 13 very, very interested in your conversation with 14 Senator Paterson are having a difficult time 15 hearing, too, so - 16 Senator Paterson, the Senator 17 yields. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 19 And Senator Stafford was trying to accommodate 20 us by facing us, but we know that Senator 21 Stafford has never turned his back on -- on me 22 in particular; and so as long as we can all 23 hear, that's a good suggestion. 3263 1 SENATOR STAFFORD: Very good. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 3 Stafford, my question to you involves the 4 relocation of over 3,000 workers from the 5 Capital Area to a number of regions where we 6 have purchased property, where we have purchased 7 buildings from IBM. On February the 16th, 8 Governor Pataki announced that he had come to an 9 agreement with IBM where the state would 10 purchase 1.3 square million feet of space in 11 Kingston, East Fishkill and the Endicott area 12 for approximately $13 million. This would mean 13 that the 49 centers that house 6,000 workers who 14 conduct data processing for the state, that 15 there would be a consolidation and Governor 16 Pataki through Mr. Delaney, who is the OGS 17 Commissioner-in-waiting, I guess, that this 18 might save $50 million to the state. 19 My question is about the economic 20 impact of this potential move; and, first, I 21 would like to ask you how the $13 million is 22 spent. 23 I would imagine, to try to answer 3264 1 my own question, that a certain amount of it 2 would go for the relocation and the purchase of 3 the buildings, and that the other portion would 4 be for leasing. 5 So my first question to you is, 6 is the state buying these buildings or leasing 7 them? 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: I, first, 9 certainly relate to the wrenching problem it is 10 for anyone or any family when there are 11 relocations or layoffs, as I mentioned earlier 12 in one of my more rambling answers, when I was 13 talking about the company that moved from our 14 area with 650 jobs, and you just can't explain. 15 No one can unless they are part of it and 16 understand. There are changes being made; there 17 are relocations. 18 First, I don't believe the exact 19 plan has been finished on exactly how the $13 20 million will be spent. Also, I point out -- and 21 this gets right back to the heart of the whole 22 matter, and unless we do our best to reduce 23 costs and have our public sector as efficient as 3265 1 possible, our private sector as efficient as 2 possible, the first thing you know no one is 3 going to have a job in any part of the state. 4 Now, we've all, of course, heard 5 people discussing this issue. We have some 6 very, very solid people who represent this 7 area. They are making sure that their position 8 is known, and I think everyone is making sure 9 that everyone is having an opportunity, and 10 there will be as little, if any, hurt as 11 possible. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Paterson. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 15 President. Senator Stafford, I'm sure you'll 16 understand that if I demur to your complaint - 17 in other words, if I accept that everything 18 you're saying is true -- that it is still 19 difficult for me to vote for this particular 20 budget bill because the information doesn't 21 exist. It may not be anybody's fault, but the 22 point is that it is very difficult to reach a 23 decision and consider that you are part of the 3266 1 decision-making process when you can't establish 2 whether or not certain issues exist. 3 For instance, is it not true that 4 the three sites scheduled for relocation that we 5 have either bought or leased from IBM are on the 6 State's hazardous waste list? 7 SENATOR STAFFORD: If there are 8 any problems such as that, and we understand 9 that that is not necessarily the case -- not the 10 case, but I would say this, that any building at 11 all in any area, we have to be very, very 12 careful and make sure that we don't have that 13 problem, and I'm sure it will be handled. 14 I always mention this, and I'm 15 not saying this solves any problem, but it shows 16 how things have changed. When I was young, I 17 used to help my father put asbestos on the 18 furnace; in other words, just plain asbestos. 19 It was a white material that looked like -- not 20 cement. I'm trying to think what it looked 21 like. Well, it looked like asbestos, and you 22 just plaster it up there. Well, I think we know 23 that it isn't necessarily good for you, and I 3267 1 won't go any further. I think you probably know 2 I know that. 3 But I'm sure that the matter if 4 there is any problem, it will be handled and I 5 understand that there is not such a problem. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 7 Senator Stafford may have already answered this 8 question, but I want to ask just to see whether 9 or not specifically we have this information. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Stafford, do you yield to Senator Paterson? 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 yields. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: The three 16 sites of the proposed relocation, that being 17 Kingston, East Fishkill and Endicott, the $13 18 million that we're planning to spend, will that 19 cover the relocation to all three sites, or will 20 additional funds be needed to accomplish 21 dividing or in a sense scaling down the three 22 sites? 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: I think we 3268 1 would have to point out, to be very candid - 2 and I'm sure you will understand. I don't think 3 the final exact plans have been made. There's 4 funds to begin the work, the relocation, the 5 supporting of the individuals, the employees. 6 How much more? I would say that with this 7 administration, you will find that they will 8 come down on the side of spending as little as 9 we have to. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Paterson. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 13 Stafford, this is my problem. I have these 14 conversations with my wife and she tells me 15 these things, and they seem to be riddles, and I 16 never exactly understand but she says, "You're 17 putting the cart before the horse." And what 18 I'm saying to you is when we have announcements 19 coming from a governor and we have newspaper 20 articles that you admitted very honestly are 21 frightening people, that they are going to be 22 relocated, that they may be laid off -- and 23 we're not talking about a few people. We're 3269 1 talking about 3,200 people, maybe 3,500 people, 2 and we're telling these people that their jobs 3 are in jeopardy. They do data processing in 49 4 different centers. There are 6,000 of them. 5 Eighty-five percent of them work 6 in this region that we're standing in right now, 7 and we're saying we're going to do relocation. 8 We are going to buy it from IBM. We haven't 9 said exactly what IBM is doing to help the 10 state, but we do want to encourage business to 11 flourish. We want to help IBM, and I want to 12 help IBM. But at the same time, we have 13 residents who we serve feeling this anxiety 14 which quite often the perception of pain is 15 sometimes - 16 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President. 17 Would Senator Paterson yield? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Paterson, Senator Saland is asking you to yield. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: By all means. 21 SENATOR SALAND: Senator 22 Paterson, perhaps I heard you incorrectly, but 23 did you tell me that either you had been advised 3270 1 or had heard that by reason of these proposed 2 transfers that there were going to be 3,000 or 3 3500 layoffs, or did I misconstrue what your 4 comments were? 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 6 Senator. Thank you for giving me the 7 opportunity. 8 SENATOR SALAND: Because I do 9 believe you may have said something like that in 10 the course of your comments. And, if so, I fear 11 that either you've been misinformed or perhaps 12 you are not speaking with your usual eloquence. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I 14 don't think I was misinformed. What I'm saying 15 is that the effect of transfer that far away 16 would constitute a layoff for some; in other 17 words, not everybody can go where the job is, 18 and I was actually just responding in kind to 19 the statements that Senator Stafford made about 20 the possibility. 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Can I ask 22 Senator Paterson a question? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3271 1 Paterson, do you yield to a question from 2 Senator Stafford? 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, he 4 better get in line, Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6 Senator yields. 7 SENATOR STAFFORD: I have to get 8 this. You being a very, very good lawyer, I 9 can't let it get into evidence that I used the 10 word "frightening" because I never did. I have 11 to say, I did say that whenever anyone or any 12 family has to move, it can be very wrenching. 13 But this is a situation that has to be consid 14 ered, and I think these people are receiving 15 consideration, and really we're doing this so 16 that we can have a viable state and we're not 17 continually spending more than we take in. 18 With that, I'll sit down, and I'm 19 sure that some others - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Paterson. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 23 President. I hope this doesn't sound too 3272 1 euphemistic; but if you use the word "heart 2 wrenching," the heart applies to the fear. The 3 wrenching comes later. I think that whichever 4 the actual word was, just the point of some 5 concern of an emotional basis might arise from 6 an announcement made by the executive, the 7 highest supervisory power that government has in 8 the state, that there's going to be a relocation 9 of over 3,000 workers; and I would imagine that 10 that would lead to some people losing their 11 jobs, some people being able to accommodate the 12 transfer and moving to Kingston or East Fishkill 13 or Endicott or perhaps other areas, because we 14 don't really know where all of these transfers 15 are going to take us. 16 SENATOR STAFFORD: Can I ask you 17 one more question? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Paterson, do you yield to Senator Stafford? 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, 21 absolutely. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 yields. 3273 1 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you. 2 Wouldn't you agree that this is being done in a 3 business-like manner? It's being done in order 4 to have more efficient government, to save 5 money? And I think there is no question but the 6 way the administration is working, I think they 7 are showing their concern, their compassion, and 8 they are making sure that all people involved 9 are considered and receive every consideration 10 possible. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, you 12 have asked me a question that I can't answer, 13 and the reason I can't answer is the reason that 14 you couldn't answer my questions because we 15 don't really know all of that information yet. 16 What I'm saying is that I just was questioning 17 the nature of putting it in this legislation and 18 also holding press conferences and saying that 19 we're doing something to promote business when, 20 in fact, we don't have the information yet. 21 In other words, before I told 22 anybody that they were going to relocate, I 23 would try to have my program completely 3274 1 organized so that I knew exactly who was going, 2 exactly how much money is being spent, exactly 3 the areas of relocation. 4 They have mentioned the savings 5 to the state. That sounds very nice, but we 6 really don't know that that is the case. And so 7 what I'm saying is that I don't know if it's 8 really in the best interest not only of these 9 workers in this particular area but of anyone in 10 this state to hear about the plight of workers 11 who may be relocated to different areas -- two 12 of them further down in the Hudson Valley and 13 one of them in Endicott -- and nobody knows even 14 if the land on which the buildings they would be 15 working in would comply with regulations 16 promulgated by the Department of Environmental 17 Conservation. 18 What I'm saying to everybody is 19 that I don't think this is particularly a 20 responsible thing to do. I think that the idea 21 is good. I think that perhaps I would go as far 22 as saying that in terms of any action that would 23 benefit by saving the state money that certainly 3275 1 the thrust is good. But I'm saying - 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 3 me, Senator Paterson. 4 Senator Saland, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President. 6 Would Senator Paterson yield, please? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Paterson, would you yield to Senator Saland? 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, I would, 10 Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Paterson yields. 13 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, 14 Senator Paterson. 15 Senator Paterson, I don't recall 16 your exact words, but I think you said something 17 to the effect that somehow or another this was 18 irresponsible. I don't want to put words in 19 your mouth. I'm sort of troubled by that 20 characterization because perhaps you could tell 21 me whether in the course of the state being able 22 to purchase state-of-the-art high-tech computer 23 space for probably somewhere in the area of 3276 1 seven or eight dollars a square foot, when to 2 build or to locate that space in the open market 3 would cost 20, 30 or 40 times that amount, that 4 could be considered irresponsible, or when the 5 state gets a lease on state-of-the-art property 6 for merely operation and maintenance, paying the 7 heat, the electric and nothing more, that is 8 considered irresponsible? 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Paterson. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: To be precise, 13 I never said it was irresponsible. I just said 14 it wasn't particularly responsible. I didn't 15 think it was the best way to do it. However, I 16 now have in my hand -- a subpoena? That's not 17 it. A report from the Division of Hazardous 18 Waste Remediation that says that these three 19 sites are on the State's list of hazardous land 20 areas, and so regardless of what square footage 21 we might buy it, it would go almost to what 22 Senator Stafford was saying a little earlier 23 about lessons we've learned in the past and that 3277 1 we've come a long way. I don't know we've come 2 very far if we find out later on that we're 3 purchasing land on hazardous property. 4 SENATOR SALAND: Senator 5 Paterson, would you continue to yield? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Paterson, do you yield to another question from 8 Senator Saland? 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, 10 absolutely, Senator. 11 SENATOR SALAND: Do you have any 12 idea what the acreage is on any one of those 13 three sites? 14 SENATOR PATERSON: No, I don't, 15 Senator. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Do you 17 yield for another question from Senator Saland, 18 Senator Paterson? 19 Senator yields. 20 SENATOR SALAND: Senator Pater 21 son, were one of those sites consisting of 40 or 22 50 or 70 or 80 acres and perhaps one small por 23 tion, say a quarter of an acre, was determined 3278 1 to have had some chemicals that might have been 2 used, chemicals that might be sitting in, say, 3 for instance, canisters, would that, in effect, 4 result in the whole site being considered a 5 contaminated site? 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Senator, 7 first of all, I don't understand how I can get 8 up and ask questions and then be condemned for 9 not knowing the answers. If I knew the answers, 10 I wouldn't be asking the questions. What I'm 11 trying to say is it is on this list. How it got 12 on the list is something that probably needs to 13 be investigated. 14 But what I'm saying to you, 15 Senator, is -- I'm not saying that you're 16 wrong. I'm just saying, why don't we have this 17 information before we go to the public? That's 18 my question. 19 SENATOR SALAND: Senator, 20 inasmuch as you have been yielding to me and I 21 have been asking the questions, I think the 22 rules of this house would require me perhaps at 23 such time as you have yielded the floor to maybe 3279 1 offer some statements that might provide some of 2 the information that you're looking for. So at 3 such time you have yielded the floor, I will 4 avail myself of the opportunity to basically 5 talk about what the Governor has proposed here 6 and certainly, by all means, it's not a 7 cornerstone of this particular bill that we're 8 talking about now, but inasmuch as you have 9 raised it and raised some questions that have 10 created a sort of cycle of fear, and I think 11 very unjustifiably, and certainly I understand 12 the politics of it, particularly from whence it 13 comes. I don't mean from whence it comes from 14 you, Senator. I'm talking about some of our 15 colleagues over in the other house who with 16 great fanfare held a hearing on this. I 17 understand the need for the domestic 18 consumption, but I would like to try and talk 19 about the merits, and as I said - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 21 you, Senator Saland. You are absolutely 22 correct. Senator Paterson does have the floor. 23 Senator Paterson. 3280 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Then would 2 Senator Saland yield for a question? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Saland, do you yield to a question? 5 SENATOR SALAND: Sure. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 yields. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: The $13 9 million that was in the announcement that the 10 Governor made on February 16th of this year, 11 does that cover all three land areas or does it 12 cover the entire transfer? 13 SENATOR SALAND: There are two 14 purchases and one lease arrangement. One of the 15 purchases is in the Endicott area; the other is 16 in the Kingston area, and the lease arrangement 17 is in East Fishkill. The lease arrangement is 18 for some 75,000 square feet for which the State 19 of New York will be paying yearly operation and 20 maintenance, ten-year lease. I'm not quite 21 sure. I don't recall whether there is an option 22 on that, as well. The square footage in 23 Kingston, I believe, is somewhere in the area of 3281 1 a million square feet, and Senator Libous isn't 2 present, but the square footage in the Endicott 3 area is somewhere in excess of 300,000 square 4 feet. The net cost to the state, as I mentioned 5 earlier, is single digits, probably somewhere in 6 the area of -- it's certainly less than $10 per 7 square foot. Comparable costs would be in 8 excess of $200 per square foot, so it's 9 certainly, just from a dollars and cents 10 perspective -- forget where we go in terms of 11 how we're going to arrange the staffing, but in 12 a dollars and cents perspective, it is an 13 absolutely marvelous bargain for the State of 14 New York. 15 And, simultaneously, what the 16 state managed to accomplish was to assure -- and 17 I say the "state." I mean Governor Pataki. 18 What the Governor managed to do was to assure 19 the continued presence of IBM at its corporate 20 headquarters in Westchester County in the State 21 of New York, which on a contiguous piece of 22 attached property could have then built their 23 new headquarters which they were going to build 3282 1 -- and, in effect, were required to build for 2 business reasons -- over in Connecticut. Would 3 have been a major loss to the State of New 4 York. That new corporate headquarters which 5 will be built in the State of New York, I'm 6 told, also will result in some 2,000 7 construction jobs that will also be provided for 8 that particular site. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 10 this is most instructive. Will Senator Saland 11 continue to yield? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Saland, do you continue to yield? 14 SENATOR SALAND: Certainly, 15 Senator. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 continues to yield. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Can you tell 19 me something about the condition of the 20 buildings? And, in addition, Senator Saland, 21 can we return to the point of the land mass of 22 those particular areas and why you think I would 23 imagine that they are safe environmentally. 3283 1 SENATOR SALAND: I can tell you 2 that at the current site in East Fishkill -- I 3 have never been on the Endicott site and, 4 although I'm familiar with the general locale at 5 the Kingston site, I've never been there - 6 there are currently thousands of people working 7 at that site. The site probably consists, I 8 would guess, of at least 40 to 50 acres, perhaps 9 more. It may be as much as 100 acres, and I'm 10 not sure what other properties that are 11 currently not developed with other parcels IBM 12 also has at that site. 13 There is nobody at the site that 14 I'm aware of, no reports in the local media, no 15 information I have received to indicate that 16 anybody feels that their health has been 17 jeopardized. I'm not aware of any litigation 18 pending by anybody claiming that their health 19 has been jeopardized. I would suggest to you it 20 is certainly possible that whatever it is that 21 has occurred that has resulted in their being on 22 the register for that parcel that it could well 23 be that it's no more than the placement of some 3284 1 residue or some product that was used in one of 2 their manufacturing processes. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Saland 4 continue to yield? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Saland, do you continue to yield? 7 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 8 President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 continues to yield, Senator Paterson. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 12 Saland, do you have any idea how the properties 13 would wind up on the inactive hazardous waste 14 disposal list? 15 SENATOR SALAND: I would suggest 16 to you that there are -- Lord only knows how 17 many. You may know more than I. I would 18 suggest to you that -- again speaking to the one 19 site with which I have some familiarity that is 20 in my district that there -- I have no idea what 21 the remediation consists of, but there is 22 nothing that I am aware of that at this point 23 poses a threat to anybody at that site. I have 3285 1 absolutely no information. There has been none 2 in my media. There's been nobody who has 3 contacted me to indicate that that site is 4 posing a hazard to anybody present on that 5 site. 6 My assumption is, based on 7 experience in other situations with remediation 8 on large parcels, that it may well be the 9 presence of some substance used in the 10 manufacturing process that has been deposited on 11 the site that will have to be moved and the site 12 remediated, and I can only assure you that IBM 13 has a virtually unblemished record in handling 14 those types of problems. 15 If all of our business people and 16 all of New York and corporate America addressed 17 their problems in a similar fashion, we would 18 not have the types of problems for which this 19 registry was even created. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Paterson. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 23 President. If Senator Saland continues to 3286 1 yield? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Saland, do you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 5 President, I do. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Saland continues to yield. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 9 Saland, you do acknowledge that there would be a 10 difference between chemicals that would be in a 11 canister, as you described before, that are just 12 on the property and need to be moved and if 13 there actually is an environmental problem on 14 that particular land? 15 In other words, I'm not trying to 16 convince you that because it's happened before 17 that it is the case here, but I'm just trying to 18 make you sensitive to the fact that it has 19 happened before and that there have been 20 situations where this became a problem for 21 individuals who were in those areas. 22 SENATOR SALAND: Senator, I'm 23 anything but insensitive. I think what we're 3287 1 dealing with here is something in the nature of 2 a straw man than really a major problem. The 3 reality is, it's pretty hard to find parameters 4 such as the Governor has managed to accomplish 5 here that's going to translate into tens of 6 millions of dollars of savings, retain one of 7 New York's corporate blue bloods here in the 8 State of New York, create construction jobs, and 9 benefit not only the economy of the State of New 10 York but each and every one of our taxpayers 11 with that tens of millions of dollars of 12 savings, and that's an annual savings. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Dollinger. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator 16 Saland yield to a question? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Saland, do you yield to a Senator Dollinger? 19 SENATOR SALAND: Certainly, Mr. 20 President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 yields. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I apologize. 3288 1 I know this is down in your neck of the woods 2 and not in mine. So, again, just let me ask you 3 a couple of exploratory questions so I make sure 4 I understand what we're talking about. 5 Through you, Mr. President. Do 6 you know how long these buildings that were 7 owned by IBM were on the market? 8 SENATOR SALAND: Not particularly 9 long. Again, I can't account for Endicott. The 10 facility in Kingston probably within -- probably 11 no more than two or three years, maybe even 12 less. The facility in East Fishkill is really 13 not on the market. They are attempting to 14 market the space. I don't believe they are 15 interested in selling it. There are multi 16 purpose uses at that site. IBM and a host of 17 other unrelated manufacturers or service people 18 are located on the site. In fact, the site no 19 longer is called IBM East Fishkill. I have 20 forgotten the name. I'm showing my age by 21 identifying it as IBM East Fishkill. It may be 22 Mid-Hudson Business Center. I'm not quite sure 23 what it is. 3289 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 2 through you, Mr. President. The building -- I 3 know East Fishkill, at least based on what I can 4 read, is sort of a separate case over there, and 5 my understanding is we're not going to buy that 6 site. We're just going to lease the space 7 there. 8 SENATOR SALAND: I mentioned in 9 response to questions from Senator Paterson a 10 bit earlier I believe that is a ten-year lease. 11 I'm not -- I can't recall whether there is an 12 option associated with it or not. It's strictly 13 an operation and maintenance lease. It's a 14 tough lease to match anywhere for the kinds of 15 space that you are going to be getting for 16 basically high tech computer operations. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right. 18 That's why, through you, Mr. President, I would 19 like to focus on - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Saland, do you continue to yield? 22 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 23 President. 3290 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 continues to yield. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I would like 4 to focus on just so -- again, so I understand. 5 The buildings down in the lower part of the 6 state we're actually going to purchase is my 7 understanding? 8 SENATOR SALAND: Excuse me? 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: We're going 10 to purchase those buildings on the IBM site? 11 SENATOR SALAND: Not in East 12 Fishkill. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: No, no, apart 14 from the East Fishkill site. I'm talking about 15 the other buildings. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The Kingston 17 site is a purchase, and, again, I believe it's 18 approximately a million square feet. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. And my 20 understanding is they've been on the market for 21 a couple of years? 22 SENATOR SALAND: No more than. 23 When I said two to three, it might even be less. 3291 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My question 2 through you, Mr. President, is obviously the 3 space being available, being vacant, has 4 something to do with the fact that IBM has 5 downsized, and it has something to do with the 6 fact that these buildings are on the market, and 7 they can't sell those buildings. So, obviously, 8 if it was, as you've described it, wonderful 9 space, which it may well be, it would be an 10 attractive market commodity that would have 11 already been sold to someone else. 12 My question is, is that the 13 economic policy of this state? If we do this in 14 this budget, is it the economic policy in this 15 state that when a company decides that it needs 16 to downsize that we're going to go in and buy up 17 the property that is on the market because they 18 overbuilt the first time and that we're going to 19 bail them out to some extent of their downsizing 20 by buying their vacant property? 21 SENATOR SALAND: Is that a 22 question to me, Senator? 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's the 3292 1 question. 2 SENATOR SALAND: Senator, I think 3 that, perhaps, it's a bit disingenuous or 4 certainly, if not disingenuous, you are 5 certainly taking liberties. 6 That property -- remember, we are 7 talking 49 separate entities being consolidated 8 into three sites, a common practice in business, 9 a common practice in other states and, certain 10 ly, a practice that should be well received 11 here. We're talking about a situation that 12 amounts basically to a win-win situation. 13 Taxpayers win, people of the State of New York 14 continue to win, and we retain a major 15 corporation here in the State of New York. 16 Am I aware that IBM was going to 17 pack up and leave? I'm not aware that IBM was 18 going to pack up and leave, but I was aware that 19 they were in the process of building new corpor 20 ate headquarters. Those corporate headquarters 21 could have been just as easily built on the same 22 parcel, one contiguous parcel in the State of 23 New York and the State of Connecticut. This is 3293 1 anything but an effort to buttress IBM. 2 IBM, in case you haven't followed 3 in the New York Stock Exchange reports, has been 4 doing very, very well over the course of the 5 past year or two. IBM could have just as 6 readily chosen to do any number of things with 7 that particular piece of property. Could have 8 chosen to leave. Could have chosen to leave the 9 community and just leave the facility. It 10 wouldn't really be their problem. Could have 11 chosen to take down the building. I mean they 12 could have done any number of things. 13 But why should we be penalized - 14 or why should you endeavor to besmirch the 15 Governor for putting together a deal that has 16 saved the people in your district I don't know 17 how many thousands of dollars as part of that 18 millions of dollars that the state is going to 19 be saving? Does it bother you that the state 20 somehow or other consolidate? 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 22 President. Was that a question back to me? I 23 was asking the questions. 3294 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Dollinger, you have the floor, and you asked 3 Senator Saland to yield. Senator Saland 4 yielded. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I believe he 6 yielded for a question, so I believe he still 7 has the floor. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: No. You 9 have the floor, Senator Dollinger. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I do for 11 purposes of questions. Okay. I will pass on 12 the question. Let me ask one more. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 14 me, Senator Dollinger. 15 Senator Bruno, why do you rise? 16 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. 17 While we're debating who has the floor and who 18 has the question, I wonder if Senator Dollinger 19 and if you would indulge me, if you would yield 20 to a question or two? 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: From Senator 22 Bruno? I was asking the questions, but I will 23 be glad to yield. 3295 1 SENATOR BRUNO: Do you mind? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senator yields. 4 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you for 5 your courtesy. I have a question, and I wasn't 6 here for all of this exchange, but I would like 7 to ask you very directly, Senator, on whether or 8 not you support keeping IBM in New York State 9 with its headquarters? 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Oh, 11 absolutely. 12 SENATOR BRUNO: You do. And, 13 Senator, you recognize that what you are 14 discussing was part of the total package? You 15 know, understand total packages that are made 16 when you are making an arrangement? 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I do 18 perfectly, Mr. President, if that's the next 19 question. 20 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you. And, 21 Mr. President, one other question. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Dollinger, continue to yield? 3296 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. 2 SENATOR BRUNO: If we were 3 dealing with Eastman Kodak, would you feel the 4 same way about keeping them here in the state, 5 Senator? 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 7 President, that was the exact purpose of the 8 line of questioning I was hoping to get to with 9 Senator Saland. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Well, I'm very 11 happy - 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Excuse me, 13 Mr. President. Could I answer the Majority 14 Leader's question? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: That you 16 may. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: If it is the 18 economic policy of this state that when compan 19 ies downsize and they have vacant property, 20 we're going to take state operations and put 21 them into that vacant property as part of a 22 total package to keep them in New York State, I 23 would simply ask and I would certainly be 3297 1 willing to look at a concept that said what we 2 do for IBM in Kingston, I think we might look at 3 to do it for Eastman Kodak Company or Xerox or 4 Bausch & Lomb. 5 That's why what I was simply 6 trying to identify through Senator Saland was 7 whether this is now the economic policy of this 8 state so I can go back to the corporate 9 community in my community and say to them, "Gee, 10 we now have this policy; if we have vacant 11 buildings, we have opportunities, we're going to 12 consolidate state operations and move them 13 there, as we did to Kingston." If that's the 14 policy, I'd simply like it articulated. 15 SENATOR SALAND: Is that a 16 question for me or a question for Senator 17 Bruno? I'll yield to Senator Bruno. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I believe I 19 was just answering the question. 20 SENATOR BRUNO: Well - 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Dollinger was answering a question from Senator 23 Bruno. 3298 1 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator 2 Dollinger - 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator, 4 do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'd be glad 6 to, Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 yields. 9 SENATOR BRUNO: You understand 10 that Senator Saland doesn't set the economic 11 policy for this state, don't you, Senator, in 12 that I wondered why you'd be asking that 13 question on the floor of the Senate? 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through you, 15 Mr. President, by way of response, I'm simply 16 trying to find out whether this budget creates 17 that policy and, if it does, try to establish if 18 what we're doing in this budget is creating that 19 policy, I fully you understand it, and then I 20 can go back to the corporate community in my 21 neck of the woods and say that this is now the 22 policy. We set our policy through our budget in 23 how we spend our money, how we shift our money 3299 1 around, what we do to consolidate our 2 operations. Budgets, as you well know, are 3 policy documents. 4 If that's the policy, I simply 5 want to know it so that I can go back to my 6 community and say this is what we're now doing. 7 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. Another 8 question? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Dollinger, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 yields. 14 SENATOR BRUNO: What you are 15 asking about really relates to job retention and 16 economic development in this state and, Senator, 17 I heard your beeper go off, and I wondered if 18 that was the Speaker of the Assembly calling 19 you, and you checked it. 20 Because my question is that I 21 gather from your line of questioning that you 22 have negative things to say about what we're 23 doing here that relates to trying to maintain 3300 1 one of the largest corporations in the whole 2 world in this state, and if it pertains to 3 creating policy, wouldn't it be a great policy 4 if we can maintain the companies like Eastman 5 Kodak, IBM and so many others here in this state 6 so people can work? Wouldn't you support that, 7 Senator? 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Oh, Mr. 9 President, as I asked questions of Senator 10 Saland, as Senator Paterson asked questions of 11 Senator Saland, I think we all agree with the 12 goal of keeping IBM here. 13 One of the reasons why I asked 14 the questions, at least from my perspective, was 15 to identify if that's the policy we're setting 16 in this budget, I just want to know that because 17 that will affect whether or not I vote for this 18 budget. If it's now the policy that, "Your 19 buildings are vacant for a couple of years, we 20 need to consolidate operations, therefore, we'll 21 buy your vacant buildings," there are vacant 22 buildings in Eastman Kodak Company that are in 23 my district. There are vacant buildings from 3301 1 the Xerox company that are in my district. 2 Is that what we're now going to 3 do? If so, then I would simply like to know 4 that. That's what I was hoping to identify from 5 Senator Saland. I don't know that my question 6 raised any other issues. 7 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Dollinger, you have the floor. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I have one 12 other question but not for Senator Saland. It 13 actually deals with another issue in the budget. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You are 15 asking Senator Stafford to yield? 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator 17 Stafford, would you yield? This is a separate 18 issue. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Stafford yields to Senator Dollinger. 21 Excuse me, Senator Dollinger. 22 Senator Paterson, why do you rise? 23 SENATOR PATERSON: I was just 3302 1 going to ask Senator Dollinger, since we were on 2 this specific subject, if we could finish it? 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 4 President. Before I move on to another, I yield 5 the floor back to Senator Paterson. I 6 apologize. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: I had a 8 question for Senator Saland, actually. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Saland, do you yield to Senator Paterson? 11 SENATOR SALAND: I yield. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 yields. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 15 Saland, I have in front of me an article that 16 refers to a study that was conducted in 17 Binghamton in 1986, after a number of children 18 died of leukemia and that the whole area of 19 Binghamton apparently suffered a higher inci 20 dence of leukemia than the norm, and this is in 21 the direct area of what would be the Endicott 22 plant. 23 Also the report from the 3303 1 Department of Environmental Conservation, the 2 Division of Hazardous Waste Remediation, it 3 talks about the area in Kingston where the IBM 4 plant is, was dated March 13 of 1995, and they 5 were specific about what the problem they say 6 was, and it had to do with groundwater that was 7 contaminated by some kind of an organism, and it 8 produces something called VOCs. 9 And my question to you is, are 10 you familiar with any of the situations 11 occurring in two of the three areas that the 12 workers were scheduled to be transferred? 13 SENATOR SALAND: Am I familiar 14 with the particulars of them? No, I am not 15 familiar with the particulars of them, but I 16 would refer back to what I said previously. 17 Do you believe for one moment 18 that IBM will fail to remediate the site? Do 19 you believe for one moment that IBM in any 20 instance in which they have had this type of 21 allegation raised has not endeavored to be a 22 good corporate citizen? I'm not aware of 23 anybody, anywhere, within this state government 3304 1 or any other who has ever been able to point to 2 IBM in saying they somehow or other have failed 3 to oblige by whatever obligation was imposed 4 upon them in a situation which they have been 5 asked to remediate. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 7 President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 9 me, Senator Paterson. 10 Senator Cook, why do you rise? 11 SENATOR COOK: Can I momentarily 12 respond to that? 13 SENATOR SALAND: I would defer to 14 Senator Cook with respect to the Kingston site. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Paterson, would you like an answer from Senator 17 Cook? 18 SENATOR SALAND: It's in his 19 district, and he is far more familiar with it 20 than I am. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Before Senator 22 Cook answers. Can I answer Senator Saland's 23 question? 3305 1 SENATOR SALAND: I welcome the 2 opportunity to have Senator Cook answer, and 3 then perhaps there would be no need for you to 4 ask me another question. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Paterson, you do have the floor. Senator Saland 7 merely yielded to a question from you, so you 8 have the floor and you can say whatever you 9 please. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: I will yield 11 in a moment to Senator Cook. I just wanted 12 Senator Saland to understand that I never said 13 anything about the elements of the corporate 14 citizenry of IBM. I would imagine that if IBM 15 had these properties and that their -- the 16 buildings were vacant, so I don't know that 17 there would have been the necessity that IBM 18 even address the issues until there is such 19 time. Maybe that's why the buildings are 20 vacant. Maybe that's an example of IBM being a 21 good corporate citizen; they don't want anyone 22 in those areas. 23 But what I'm saying is I am not 3306 1 an employee of IBM. I am a public servant of 2 the State of New York, and I'm saying that when 3 the state wants to make a purchase, I'm just 4 trying to get clarification of whether or not we 5 need to have the Department of Environmental 6 Conservation come in and conduct a study to 7 investigate that particular area before we go 8 ahead and buy the building. 9 Now, I thought that would make 10 perfect sense without any kind of ill feeling 11 toward IBM or any innuendo as to how IBM 12 conducts its business. I'm sure that IBM, from 13 their profit-making capacity and their ability 14 to produce jobs, conducts business very well. 15 What I'm worried about is how the state conducts 16 business, and so that's why I asked the 17 question. 18 Now I would yield to Senator 19 Cook. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Cook, Senator Paterson yields. 22 SENATOR COOK: Just to comment on 23 this whole issue of the safety of the site. I'd 3307 1 like to indicate that there were thousands of 2 residents of my district who worked in those 3 buildings, and nobody that I have ever heard of 4 has ever raised any concern at all regarding the 5 safety of those sites. It is always easy to 6 raise those red herrings at any point in time 7 and to try to cast aspersions on anything that 8 anybody is doing, but I would like to indicate 9 in regard to Senator Dollinger's question also, 10 if I may, and then I will sit down, this was not 11 a corporate bailout. 12 The State of New York had a need 13 to establish a more effective data processing 14 center. We had available a virtually new 15 facility, a facility that is state of the art to 16 the extent that the partitions within there are 17 moveable -- that was one of the things that was 18 talked about at the time the building was 19 constructed, how easy it was to reconfigure the 20 interior of that building, because IBM at that 21 time said they could at any point reconfigure 22 the interior of that building and utilize it for 23 a whole variety of purposes, and it made it 3308 1 very, very desirable for this type of activity 2 because the electrical connections are already 3 there, because it has been a technology center, 4 because it is easy to take this facility and to 5 actually change it over to the state purposes at 6 very low cost, and that was why it was done, in 7 addition to the economic factors that Senator 8 Saland and Senator Bruno have been discussing. 9 So I say yes, Senator, if you 10 find that there are two reasons and the two 11 happen to come together, that's a very good 12 reason for doing it, and, indeed, I think that 13 probably is indeed the policy of the state. If 14 you happen to have a facility for which the 15 state has need and which at the same time can 16 promote the economic viability of a corporation 17 in the state, I'm sure that would indeed be the 18 economic policy of the state. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Paterson, if I might just interrupt. You do 21 have the floor, but I would make -- this debate 22 began at 2:30. We're now an hour and a half 23 into it, so two hours would expire at 4:30. 3309 1 Senator Paterson, you have the 2 floor. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 4 President. I have an amendment at the desk. I 5 would like to waive its reading and make sure 6 that it is at the desk. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 amendment is at the desk, Senator Paterson. The 9 reading of it is waived, and you have permission 10 to explain it. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 12 President. 13 What my amendment proposes is 14 that there be no relocation of workers under the 15 portion of this bill to any sites that are on 16 the State's list of hazardous waste localities, 17 that there be no transfer. 18 Further, if we do decide that a 19 transfer is necessary, and from what Senator 20 Saland and Senator Cook are saying that this 21 issue is actually resolved because, according to 22 them, the three areas that we're talking about 23 relocating workers, that these three areas 3310 1 should not be on that list. They may be right. 2 I'm suggesting in my amendment that the way we 3 achieve this is that we have the Department of 4 Environmental Conservation come in and conduct a 5 study. 6 There are two other sections of 7 my amendments -- in my amendment, and it be that 8 we discontinue the funding of $3 million to the 9 State Tax Department that will accommodate the 10 transfer and also lease and buy the buildings; 11 and, finally, that we discontinue $10 million 12 funding to the Office of General Services that 13 would engage in the leasing of all the items of 14 materials that we would need to do this. 15 The reason that I offer this 16 amendment, Mr. President, is because what I feel 17 -- where I feel my colleagues have not 18 addressed an issue is just on the basic point 19 that an agency of the State of New York has a 20 division that has rendered at least the Kingston 21 facility suspicious when it comes to the 22 environmental viability of it. This report was 23 not issued prior to 1995. This report was 3311 1 issued March 13 of 1995. 2 Now, my point is if we're just 3 going to wave our hands at the report because we 4 have made a good financial deal, we may find 5 that the deal may inure to our detriment in a 6 way that threatens the safety of human beings 7 who we, first of all, are going to transfer from 8 this area to another area and, secondly, may put 9 their personal security in jeopardy. What I am 10 saying, Mr. President, is why don't we let our 11 own agency come in and make sure that these 12 areas are viable? This can't be a political 13 point of view that I'm advancing right now. 14 First of all, if we're going to 15 talk about politics, we should talk about all 16 the transfers and where they are going, because 17 they are not going to the Bronx, they are not 18 going to Manhattan. They are going to what I 19 would deem to be political areas. But I don't 20 want to talk about politics, so let's not. 21 Let's just talk about workers' 22 safety and let's talk about how we have a report 23 from an agency of the State of New York that we 3312 1 are ignoring. If we don't like the things that 2 the agency says, then let's just get rid of the 3 agency. But as long as we have a Division of 4 Hazardous Waste Remediation that's coming to the 5 conclusion that it's coming, I don't understand 6 how we can stand here, Mr. President, and just 7 act as if there is no validity to this report. 8 I'm not saying that anything that 9 Senator Saland, Senator Cook, or Senator 10 Stafford is saying is wrong, but I'm just saying 11 all that glitters is not gold, and I don't think 12 that we have to jump to conclusions without 13 doing the proper investigation, and that is the 14 purpose of the amendment that I am submitting. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Libous on the amendment. 17 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President. 18 I have to take exception to Senator Paterson's 19 amendment. Senator Paterson, in all due 20 respect, your amendment I feel it necessary to 21 stand and defend my home town of Binghamton, New 22 York, and Endicott, where this site is. 23 I don't know what the newspaper 3313 1 article is that you're reading, but I can assure 2 you that the site that IBM was on, the million 3 square feet at the Glendale Campus is safe. It 4 has been safe and housed over 5,000 workers 5 since 1960. It is right next door to a golf 6 course which houses the BC Open which is on the 7 pro tour, and I take extreme exception that you 8 would put an amendment on the floor and include 9 my community as saying that it is hazardous - 10 that it is unsafe and that there is a health 11 hazard. 12 I think the real issue here is 13 that you are creating a distortion. If you 14 disagree with the move, that's one thing. But 15 now to create a health hazard, Mr. President, I 16 think is just a whole other issue. 17 Let me answer some of the 18 questions that have come up, because I've had a 19 difficult time - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Libous, excuse me. 22 Senator Paterson, why do you 23 rise? 3314 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 2 President. 3 I'd just like to advise Senator 4 Libous that I was just talking about the article 5 in a previous questioning that I was engaging in 6 with Senator Saland. In my amendment, I don't 7 ask for the Department of Environmental 8 Conservation to look into that particular area, 9 and the reason that I did that, Senator, is 10 because there is no real evidence. I was just 11 saying that there was a possibility of evidence 12 and it would be unfair to you and to that 13 particular area if I included it. 14 What I was saying about the 15 Kingston area is we already have a report that 16 says that; and if anybody wants to refute that 17 report, they are certainly entitled to, but I 18 would rather refute the report in terms of an 19 agency investigation rather than on the floor of 20 the Senate. 21 Now, in your particular area, I 22 will show you the articles and they, to be fair 23 to you, do not trace it to the area directly 3315 1 around that particular plant, and that's why 2 your area is not included in the amendment. 3 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr. 4 President. Thank you, Senator Paterson, as long 5 as we got that cleared up. 6 Thank you. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 8 recognizes Senator Hoblock on the amendment. 9 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Mr. President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 11 recognizes Senator Hoblock on the amendment. 12 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Will Senator 13 Paterson yield for a question or two? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Paterson, do you yield to Senator Hoblock? 16 Senator yields. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr. 18 President. 19 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Senator, I'm a 20 little confused listening to part of this 21 debate. Perhaps I didn't hear all of it, but is 22 the substance of your amendment dealing with the 23 environmental inspection of some site, or does 3316 1 it go beyond that, limited to that? I'm not 2 sure exactly what it does based on what I heard 3 so far. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: It does deal 5 with the part that you raised. In addition, it 6 removes the funding that would actually 7 accommodate the transfer of workers to the three 8 regions that have been described, the regions of 9 Fishkill -- of East Fishkill, Kingston and the 10 Endicott area. 11 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Senator 12 Paterson further yield? 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 Senator continues to yield, Senator Hoblock. 16 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Senator, I'm a 17 little confused because perhaps maybe being 18 relatively new here, but is the state of New 19 York in the business of buying or leasing 20 property or doing whatever with property without 21 an inspection as to whether or not it's a 22 hazardous site? Is this a practice that the 23 state now undergoes? 3317 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 2 Hoblock, I don't think that the state has to 3 necessarily conduct an environmental inspection 4 if there is no evidence there is an environ 5 mental problem. What we were presenting on the 6 floor today is that if there is evidence in some 7 cases that there is an environmental problem, 8 then at that point we would ask for an investi 9 gation. It would probably be too cumbersome to 10 conduct all kinds of impact statement investiga 11 tions on any kind of transfer of workers from 12 one area to another. 13 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Senator 14 Paterson continue to yield? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Paterson, do you continue to yield? 17 Senator yields. 18 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Senator, I 19 don't think I have any problem, I'm not sure 20 anyone would have any problem or disagreement 21 with your concept or idea, because I don't think 22 we should be in the business of buying or 23 leasing or dealing with any properties that may 3318 1 be on a hazardous waste site list or anything to 2 do with hazardous waste. Perhaps, together, we 3 can prepare some legislation that directly 4 affects that point as opposed to expanding it to 5 what I think is intended to expand it here 6 today, but, rather, to deal with the issue of 7 let's not have the state in the business of 8 dealing with property that is identified as a 9 hazardous waste site or has any indication. I 10 think that's just prudent business practice, 11 don't you agree? 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 13 Hoblock, I don't know if I really do agree. 14 What I'm saying is that sometimes when we talk 15 about business practices, we concentrate the 16 discussion on profiteering, but what is a 17 business practice if theoretically -- and I'm 18 not saying that I know this would happen -- if 19 theoretically we are relocating workers to a 20 site that might have an undesirable effect. 21 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Senator 22 Paterson continue to yield? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3319 1 Paterson, do you continue to yield? 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, I do, Mr. 3 President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 continues to yield. 6 SENATOR HOBLOCK: I would think 7 that over the years the state of New York not 8 just in this capital city of Albany but all over 9 the state probably has leased space in a number 10 of buildings, have moved people from point A to 11 point B. I know the previous administration 12 took a lot of offices out of Albany and moved 13 them to New York City. 14 Do you know whether or not any of 15 those sites were inspected or you required or 16 anyone in this house required that they be 17 evaluated or inspected before we expended any 18 funds? 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 20 Hoblock and Mr. President, what I am saying is 21 that, regardless of whether we inspected these 22 sites in the past, when we have evidence that 23 perhaps an inspection should be conducted, I 3320 1 don't understand why we wouldn't go ahead and 2 actually perform an investigation; otherwise, I 3 would have to conclude that we have agencies 4 that are going out testing land for oil spills 5 and testing land for hazardous waste or 6 contaminated water, and we're taking the 7 information and documenting it but we're not 8 doing anything with the documentation, and 9 that's the kind of short-circuiting of 10 government that I think the public is commanding 11 us to engage in right now. The public is 12 saying, "Let's get rid of the bureaucracy." 13 What I'm saying is where we have 14 evidence that I'm not saying is conclusive, but 15 certainly would meet the threshold test of sus 16 picion, I think we should conduct an investiga 17 tion and, if we did not do it in the past, then 18 maybe this situation has brought us to a new 19 plain, a level of responsibility that we have - 20 in the past may have naively ignored. 21 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Saland, why do you rise? 3321 1 SENATOR SALAND: Will Senator 2 Paterson yield, please? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Hoblock was engaging in a series of questions. 5 SENATOR SALAND: My apologies to 6 both Senator Hoblock and Senator Paterson. 7 SENATOR HOBLOCK: I will 8 temporarily yield. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Hoblock has the floor. 11 SENATOR SALAND: My apologies. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: And 13 Senator Paterson does not have the floor, so he 14 would have to yield the floor to you, and that's 15 too much for me to comprehend this late in the 16 afternoon, and so I hope you'll - 17 SENATOR SALAND: It can be a bit 18 wearing, Mr. President. I apologize. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Hoblock. 21 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Well, Mr. 22 President, very briefly on the amendment. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3322 1 Hoblock on the amendment. 2 SENATOR HOBLOCK: You know, I've 3 heard over the past several days as it concerns 4 legislation that's presented on this side, 5 budget bills or whatever it may be, from across 6 the aisle that there are certain portions of it 7 we agree with, there are certain portions of it 8 we don't agree with, and let's sit down and work 9 this out and maybe we can come up with something 10 better; that I would like to support it but I 11 can't because of this or I'm opposing it, but I 12 would rather not because of whatever some 13 specific language may be, and I think this is a 14 perfect illustration. 15 I can't believe that the state of 16 New York is in the business of leasing or pur 17 chasing property, subjecting its employees 18 intentionally to an unsafe condition, a condi 19 tion that is not healthy, that does not meet the 20 very laws that we make in this house and ask our 21 state agencies to enforce. 22 If, in fact, there is in any one 23 of the locations we're talking about here today 3323 1 any indication or evidence that there is a 2 hazardous site -- it is a hazardous site, any 3 condition that would affect the public safety 4 and health of the state worker or anybody 5 associated with that area should be inspected, 6 and I support that, and if Senator Paterson 7 wants to work with me on a piece of legislation 8 that, in fact, requires that statewide, I would 9 be happy to assist him and work with him on that 10 legislation. 11 I have a feeling that this 12 particular legislation goes beyond that, 13 though. There is some underlying theme here 14 that we haven't heard about and I would like to 15 hear about. But if it has to do with the issue 16 of the health and safety of our state employees, 17 Senator Paterson, with you or anyone else, I am 18 totally on board and we have to address that 19 issue. But if it's something else, I would like 20 to hear it. 21 Thank you, Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Paterson. 3324 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 2 I'm not at all trying to obfuscate the entire 3 issue. We have gotten off onto a discussion 4 about the environment, but I would not neces 5 sarily like to see the workers who are in this 6 particular area relocated out of the area. 7 Just as a point of view, I 8 introduced the amendment, and I guess I have a 9 right to my point of view, and, well, that's 10 part of it, also, Senator Hoblock. 11 I would also like to add that 12 right here in Albany in Building 8, we are - 13 there had been problems with the air quality in 14 that particular building if I'm correct, and 15 that that has in many ways been part of 16 facilitating the transfer. So, no, the state is 17 not in the business of making decisions at the 18 expense of workers, but never at any point in 19 my discussion have I labeled any intent on the 20 part - 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 22 me, Senator Paterson. Senator Cook, why do you 23 rise? 3325 1 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 2 Point of information, and perhaps a point of 3 order. Does this amendment add language to the 4 budget? Is that the intent of this amendment? 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Senator. 6 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 7 Now, a point of order. 8 I believe -- is there not a court 9 decision that says that the Legislature may not 10 add language to the Governor's budget? And if 11 so, I would contend that the amendment is, on 12 its face, unconstitutional and, therefore, out 13 of order. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: If you 15 will allow me a moment to talk with counsel, 16 Senator Cook. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 18 President. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 20 Paterson, do you want to speak to the point of 21 order? 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. If you 23 were seeking counsel, I was going to offer it to 3326 1 you free rather than the paid counsel. 2 (Laughter.) 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Always 4 willing to listen to counsel, Senator Paterson. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: This 6 particular amendment, while it discusses the 7 budget, is not additional language in the sense 8 that it challenges the constitutionality of it. 9 What we're just saying is we're putting forth - 10 we are not rewriting the Governor's budget. 11 We're just saying we want to take $3 million out 12 of the Tax Department; we want to take $10 13 million away from the Office of General Services 14 to stop the transfer. Then we are asking that 15 the Department of Environmental Conservation 16 investigate where there have been instances 17 where there is evidence of possibly land 18 contamination on those particular sites. I 19 don't see in there any kind of language that 20 actually puts a new direction on the Governor's 21 budget. 22 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, 3327 1 Senator Cook. 2 SENATOR COOK: It would be my 3 contention that lines 16 through 20, in which 4 the language is added, "that no expenditure 5 shall be made..." et cetera, which actually 6 restricts -- adds restrictive language to the 7 use of the appropriation, violates the case, the 8 constitutional case that was decided -- I've 9 forgotten -- a couple of years ago, that says 10 that language may not be added to the Governor's 11 budget by the Legislature. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, 13 Senator Paterson, I have now had an opportunity 14 to discuss the matter with counsel and also to 15 review the amendment, and it does appear that in 16 lines 2 through 14, in fact there is language 17 that says you're inserting language. Then 18 there's about 12 lines that are inserted, and 19 then, as Senator Cook has mentioned, there is an 20 additional insertion of language, 16 through 21 20. 22 True, there are portions of the 23 amendment that deal with changing numbers, 3328 1 appropriations, and so it is my understanding 2 that the Bankers decision, in fact, did rule 3 this type of amendment to be unconstitutional. 4 So it would be the decision of 5 this chair that your amendment is out of order, 6 and that the point of order issued by or raised 7 by Senator Cook is well-founded. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Paterson. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: The Bankers 12 decision, if I remember correctly, was rendered 13 by a court that may not have had the wisdom that 14 you have, but it still was a court. In other 15 words, a question of constitutionality - 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Paterson, what I would like to do at this point 18 is to say I have rendered a determination. That 19 is the decision of this Chair. If you wish to 20 challenge that, you certainly have the right to 21 talk to that throughout the appropriate time. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 23 I'm raising a point of order. In other words, 3329 1 I'm not questioning your decision. I would 2 not. I'm sure you reached a decision that you 3 thought was right, but what I'm questioning 4 is - 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 6 I believe a point of order has been raised by 7 Senator Cook. The Chair -- the President has 8 made a determination. If you wish to appeal the 9 ruling of the Chair, you certainly have the 10 right to do so. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Paterson. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: If the 14 Majority Leader would just allow me. I don't 15 even -- I haven't even gotten to the point where 16 I want to appeal the decision of the Chair. 17 What I am questioning is whether or not the 18 Chair can make a decision related to constitu 19 tionality of a particular amendment that I'm 20 contending is not unconstitutional. In other 21 words, I don't understand how that decision can 22 be made here. We're not a court. 23 That is a question of comparison 3330 1 between what's put forth in the amendment and 2 what actually exists in our constitution, 3 although I understand the point that Senator 4 Cook raised. I'm just saying that I don't think 5 this body has the jurisdiction to make that 6 decision. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Then I 8 would say, Senator Paterson, that you have the 9 opportunity and the right, before I continue - 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 11 President. What I am asking you is, can you 12 point to the rule of the Senate that gives you 13 the jurisdiction to rule my amendment unconsti 14 tutional and out of order because it's 15 unconstitutional? 16 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Cook. 19 SENATOR COOK: I think that we 20 can -- time is precious. I think that my point 21 of order was well-founded and your response was 22 correct. I think that the Minority wanted to 23 make its point. Rather than extending this 3331 1 debate, I think we might better just -- I will 2 withdraw my point of order if I can do it at 3 this point. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You 5 certainly can withdraw your point of order. 6 The point of order is withdrawn, 7 so the question of the determination of the 8 Chair is unnecessary and moot at this point. 9 The Chair would recognize Senator 10 Paterson on the amendment. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: We're back to 12 the amendment, Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: So in answer 15 to Senator Cook's original question, that's what 16 the amendment does. It takes the money out of 17 the two agencies that would facilitate the 18 transfer of the workers and it additionally 19 commends the DEC to conduct an investigation 20 where one may be needed due to data that has 21 been brought forth through investigation. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 question is on the amendment. All those in 3332 1 favor, signify by saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye.") 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Party vote, 4 with exceptions. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6 will call the roll. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Party vote in 8 the negative. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: And 10 record the party line vote with exceptions. 11 (The Secretary called the roll.) 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Note the 13 exceptions and announce the results. 14 Senator Paterson. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Did I win? 16 (Laughter.) 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: It 18 appears to be very close, Senator Paterson. 19 That's why it's taking so long to record the 20 vote. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Because if 22 it's going the wrong way, rule it out of order. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We have 3333 1 the results. Secretary will announce them. 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 25. Nays 3 35. Party vote with exceptions. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Paterson, you didn't win. The amendment failed. 6 Senator Abate, on the bill. 7 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, would 8 Senator Stafford yield to a question? 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Stafford yields to Senator Abate. 12 SENATOR ABATE: A question or 13 two, Senator. This is concerning the funding of 14 the alcohol treatment centers. Do you recognize 15 and I think everyone in this chamber would 16 recognize that in New York City, particularly 17 Manhattan and Bronx, that we face enormous 18 problems around alcohol and substance abuse, and 19 there are close to 2- or 300,000 people in need 20 of treatment. Would you concede that? 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: First, I 22 concede that we have a very, very serious 23 problem with alcohol in upstate New York. 3334 1 SENATOR ABATE: Would you also 2 agree clearly that alcohol abuse and drug abuse 3 is a problem statewide? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Abate, would you suffer an interruption, 6 please? 7 SENATOR ABATE: Sure. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: May we 9 have some order in the chamber. Awful lot of 10 noise. Please take your places, close the 11 doors, stop the movement. Take the discussions 12 outside the chamber. 13 Thank you. 14 Senator Abate. 15 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, thank you. 16 While I agree with you that the 17 problem of alcohol and drug abuse is prevalent 18 throughout the state, clearly in terms of the 19 Bronx and Manhattan, in terms of sheer numbers, 20 there are more people in need of treatment in 21 the Bronx and Manhattan than probably in any 22 other area in New York State, just sheer 23 numbers. 3335 1 SENATOR STAFFORD: Is that a 2 question? 3 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. 4 SENATOR STAFFORD: I think 5 probably you obviously know your district, but I 6 would share with you -- you probably would be 7 surprised -- if we went in percentages, you 8 would see some serious problems upstate. 9 SENATOR ABATE: But in terms of 10 the fact that the numbers that we're talking 11 about in New York City -- close to 500,000 12 people, we believe, are in need of this kind of 13 treatment -- there probably is not another city 14 in New York State that has the numbers of 15 people, close to a half a million people, in 16 need of treatment. 17 SENATOR STAFFORD: You are asking 18 me - 19 SENATOR ABATE: In terms of, is 20 there any other city that has more than 500,000 21 persons in need of treatment? 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: I think this, 23 when you are dealing with a problem such as 3336 1 this, it's so serious. You are dealing with 2 human beings; and if there is one problem, if 3 there is one human being, it's serious. 4 SENATOR ABATE: I happen to agree 5 with you, and that's why I'm so concerned that 6 $5.1 million was added for the restoration for 7 four out of six alcohol and treatment centers, 8 and what was restored were the centers in 9 Rockland County, in Queens, Oneida, Seneca 10 County, and the two that were not funded were 11 Bronx and Manhattan. What was the rationale for 12 this decision? 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I, of 14 course, realize when it comes to these -- I'm 15 looking for my list. I am sure that these 16 decisions are made on a professional basis. I 17 don't know exactly what the differences are. I, 18 of course, find that -- or we find that in these 19 budgets, it's always very, very difficult, and 20 we find that these decisions are made really on 21 a professional basis by those who are really 22 dealing in the field. 23 SENATOR ABATE: I guess what I'm 3337 1 questioning here is the foundation for these 2 decisions. Were they based on need or some 3 other criteria? 4 SENATOR STAFFORD: I'm sure there 5 are many criteria that any professional 6 considers. I think there would be health, being 7 able to deliver health treatment as it should 8 be. But as we say there are limited dollars, 9 limited funds and, of course -- that was, of 10 course, what I was alluding to a few minutes 11 ago. Also, there are not-for-profit facilities 12 in the downstate area where you don't have 13 facilities in these other areas. 14 SENATOR ABATE: Unfortunately, 15 those facilities have also been cut through 16 OASAS funding and also 13B demonstration 17 projects, and if that were the case, I might 18 agree with you. My understanding is that the 19 greatest need, or at least as great a need, is 20 in the two areas where the centers are not 21 funded, and I would like to pursue with you 22 further, again, the rationale for those cuts. 23 At this point, I have to believe 3338 1 the basis for the cuts was not as a result of 2 need but some other criteria which I think would 3 not be particularly worthy. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read the last section. 6 Senator Dollinger. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would Senator 8 Stafford yield to just one question? As you may 9 recall, I had a question when I yielded to 10 Senator Paterson on the IBM issue. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Stafford, do you yield to Senator Dollinger? 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: The previous 14 question was, again, we were talking about 15 delivery of health care and whether it's getting 16 there. 17 Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 yields. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. Presi 21 dent, I will try to be brief. My understanding 22 is that in this budget, the funds for Low Level 23 Radioactive Waste Siting Commission are removed 3339 1 or significantly reduced. Is that correct? 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: The only 3 funding remaining is that for accrued benefits 4 for those who are working. Just one second. 5 Go ahead. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Dollinger, do you wish Senator Stafford to 8 continue to yield? 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: They said that 10 I -- I'm -- really, I have your next question. 11 Go ahead. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 13 President. Can I assume that the answer is yes, 14 that it is abolished? 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through you, 17 Mr. President, just so, again, we understand the 18 policy. Is it now the policy of the Governor 19 and of this Senate as we approve this that we 20 have abandoned the concept of looking for a low 21 level radioactive waste storage site in this 22 state? 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: No, not at 3340 1 all. And I am one that worked with the entity 2 that we are ending, and I am not at all 3 concerned that it is ending. We will now be 4 working with the Governor. The Governor's 5 office will make a determination, and there will 6 be a vehicle to carry out any mission that we 7 have in this area. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 9 through you, Mr. President, so I understand if 10 Senator Stafford will yield? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Stafford, do you continue to yield? 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 continues to yield. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So the 17 previous function of determining the appropri 18 ateness of a low level radioactive waste site is 19 now going to be done by the Governor's office? 20 SENATOR STAFFORD: As I 21 mentioned, to be accurate, that the Governor's 22 office, working -- I'm sure working with all of 23 us, working with others, working with 3341 1 professionals, I'm sure a decision will be made 2 whereby there is a vehicle to carry out the 3 mission if there is one needed concerning 4 exactly what we're talking about here today. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: We're 6 abandoning the concept of an independent siting 7 commission. 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: No, what we're 9 -- what we're doing is we're abandoning the 10 idea of spending $50 million and not getting any 11 result. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: How are we 13 going to -- again, through you, Mr. President, 14 if Senator Stafford will yield. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Stafford, do you continue to yield? 17 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 continues to yield. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: How are we 21 going to determine the appropriateness of a low 22 level radioactive waste site? 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I 3342 1 mentioned earlier that we would see, I'm sure, a 2 determination by those responsible, including 3 the Governor, and a vehicle will be there if 4 there is a need for the mission. But I also 5 would yield to my Senator from Otsego, who works 6 in this field. Could he answer? 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 8 President, if you wish to yield to Senator 9 Seward, I have no problem, Mr. President, if 10 that's the appropriate protocol. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Seward to answer the question posed to Senator 13 Stafford. 14 SENATOR SEWARD: I was outside 15 the chamber on other business. Getting into the 16 middle of this discussion, I'm not sure what 17 ground has been covered so far, but just 18 following up on Senator Stafford's answer in 19 terms of this legislation before us, we, in 20 fact, do basically eliminate the Low Level 21 Radioactive Waste Siting Commission. That's as 22 far as we can go in this particular piece of 23 legislation. 3343 1 I would envision the need for 2 either an Article 7 bill or subsequent 3 legislation to set the policy in the post 4 Commission era, shall we say, on this issue. So 5 it's not going to be a loose thing. It is going 6 to be decided by this chamber and the other 7 house and the Governor in terms of additional 8 legislation, which is the normal course. When 9 we deal with items such as this through the 10 budget, the numbers are one thing, the policy 11 and the process is another, and that will be 12 dealt with in subsequent legislation, and we can 13 have the type of discussion at that time. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 15 you, Mr. President, if Senator Seward would 16 yield? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Seward, do you yield to Senator Dollinger? 19 SENATOR SEWARD: Certainly. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 yields. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Where are we 23 going to get the money to fund that alternative? 3344 1 SENATOR SEWARD: Well, that's a 2 question for later on. The fact of the matter 3 is that, as others -- many other states have 4 done, we can do the same in terms of the 5 assigning it to a unit in the -- in another 6 agency, perhaps the Department of Environmental 7 Conservation. They have people over there that 8 are very knowledgeable in this area, and that 9 could be assimilated as part of that agency. 10 What we're saying as part of this 11 measure is we're acknowledging the fact that the 12 bottom line is that the Commission has failed to 13 carry out its mission. There's got to be a 14 better way and we're going to deal with it, the 15 siting commission, through this budget, and then 16 we're going to, together, seek that better way. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Skelos, why do you rise? 19 SENATOR SKELOS: What time did 20 the debate begin on this bill? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 debate began at 2:30. That's been two hours and 23 about eight minutes at this point in the debate. 3345 1 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 2 may I? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Stavisky. 5 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 6 I have two amendments to the bill before us, and 7 I would like the opportunity to explain them and 8 to do it briefly. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Well, 10 Senator Stavisky, I hate to share this 11 information with you, but right now Senator 12 Dollinger has the floor. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 14 President, I would yield the floor to Senator 15 Stavisky. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: In that 17 case, Senator Stavisky. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 19 would like to move to close debate at this time. 20 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Stavisky. 23 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 3346 1 I believe that fairness, no matter who is in 2 control of this house, should allow a member who 3 has an amendment to offer - 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Stavisky - 6 SENATOR STAVISKY: -- be able to 7 offer that amendment. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Stavisky, this motion made by the Acting Major 10 ity Leader is non-debatable. 11 At this point, I will ask the 12 Secretary to call the roll. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Paterson. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: A point of 17 order. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Pardon? 19 SENATOR PATERSON: A point of 20 order. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Point of 22 order. Make your point of order, Senator 23 Paterson. 3347 1 SENATOR PATERSON: The point of 2 order is that we had a point of order that took 3 a very long time that really didn't relate to 4 the debate at all on my amendment, and so what 5 I'm suggesting as a compromise, is that that 6 brief period be subtracted from the debate time, 7 that would allow Senator Stavisky to put his 8 amendments on the floor. We'll do it as briefly 9 as possible. We understand what time the debate 10 started, and we understand the very timliness 11 that the Majority has delegated to starting the 12 sessions and ending them on time and trying to 13 get us to work within a time limit, which I 14 agree with, but I'm just saying, since we had a 15 rather lengthy debate more about the rules of 16 the Senate than the actual budget bill, if we 17 could just concede that time to Senator Stavisky 18 who worked very hard on his amendments, he could 19 put them in very quickly. 20 I'm just asking the Majority and 21 yourself, Mr. President, if we can just do that 22 and from here on in, we will try to bring our 23 debates to closure in the seasonable period. 3348 1 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 2 you have my assurance that I will abide by a 3 timely - 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Stavisky. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Let me just 8 state, in fairness to everybody, I think Senator 9 Paterson did raise a good point about we were 10 debating the rules. 11 However, I do want to point out, 12 prior to moving to close debate, I asked Senator 13 Paterson, "Is Senator Abate your last speaker?" 14 He indicated yes. If not at that time, I would 15 have encouraged the other members to present 16 their amendments so that we could follow the 17 rules of the Senate and complete debate within 18 two hours. 19 But in fairness to Senator 20 Stavisky, as long as he's brief and these are 21 the last two amendments, we will give you the 22 courtesy of presenting the amendments at this 23 time. 3349 1 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: And I would 3 withdraw my motion to close debate. 4 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you, 5 Senator. 6 And I will discuss the two 7 amendments as though they were one. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 motion to close debate is withdrawn. 10 Senator Stavisky, have the 11 amendments been served? 12 SENATOR STAVISKY: Yes, they 13 have. They're at the desk. I will waive the 14 reading and I would explain the amendments 15 briefly and treat them as a single presentation 16 to save time. I'll give you that assurance. 17 Mr. President and members of the 18 Senate - 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Stavisky, just as a clarification to the 21 Secretary and to the Chair, now you wish to 22 offer up the first amendment; you'll discuss 23 both amendments when you offer that up, and then 3350 1 we'll take a vote on the first amendment and 2 then we'll take another vote on the second 3 amendment? 4 SENATOR STAVISKY: Yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All 6 right. Reading of the first amendment is 7 waived. You are entitled at this time to 8 briefly describe the amendments to it. 9 Senator Stavisky. 10 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 11 I think that there is no member of the Senate of 12 the state of New York who does not have faculty 13 and students and employees of the State 14 University of New York and the City University 15 of New York in his or her district. 16 These institutions, which were 17 aided immeasurably by Republican and Democratic 18 governors over the years, including two 19 Republican governors by the name of Governor 20 Dewey and Governor Rockefeller, now are in 21 jeopardy if proposed cuts are not restored in 22 some meaningful manner. 23 What the amendments before you 3351 1 propose to do are designed to restore funding to 2 eliminate major increases in tuition for 3 students in SUNY and CUNY. If we do not act, 4 tuition increases of up to $1,000 per annum in 5 CUNY and up to $1600 per annum in SUNY may make 6 New York State one of the highest tuitioned 7 states among the large states. 8 Lower tuition presently exists, 9 without an increase, in the state of Michigan, 10 in the state of California, in state of Florida, 11 in the state of Maryland, in the state of 12 Arizona, and there is additional state support 13 behind each full-time equivalent student in 14 states such as Michigan, California, Florida, 15 Maryland and New Jersey. 16 I don't believe that members of 17 the Legislature have been given accurate 18 information when they were told that surrounding 19 states have higher tuition than we do when, in 20 fact, the states that I have mentioned, not only 21 have a greater state contribution behind each 22 student, but also in a number of cases have 23 lower tuition. 3352 1 In 1847, a tradition of free 2 public higher education was initiated in New 3 York State. It was called the Free Academy, and 4 over the years since the mid-17th Century, the 5 contribution of City University students and 6 subsequently State University students have made 7 this state truly a state with riches, riches in 8 intellectual contributions and in professional 9 contributions and business contributions. 10 I don't want to go into a litany 11 of who are the graduates, but at a time when 12 there's an increased emphasis on higher 13 educational training in order to meet the needs 14 of a high-tech society, we do not want to 15 discourage this generation of students, many of 16 whom are minority, many of whom are students 17 that might not have a chance to continue their 18 education, to make productive contributions to 19 their chosen careers without the opportunity for 20 affordable higher education. 21 If I had my way, I would remove 22 the tuition entirely because a person who 23 graduates from a higher educational institution 3353 1 is likely to make up to a half million dollars a 2 year in additional earnings over the course of a 3 lifetime, and we will recoup that money in 4 higher taxes and so will the federal government 5 recoup that money, and the loss at all levels of 6 government, in Washington, of student loans, 7 student grants and other forms of financial aid, 8 and the loss of scholarship programs in our own 9 state and other financial incentives for 10 students to learn and not go on welfare will be 11 sorely felt. 12 If you believe in getting people 13 off of welfare and on to WorkFare, then you 14 should support these amendments or, if you 15 believe that affordable tuition is not 16 important, then obviously, we will not be 17 prepared for the challenges of the 21st Century. 18 I am asking you, in order to 19 fulfill the mandate of having a trained work 20 force available for industry, for professions, 21 the arts and the sciences and also government, 22 in order to accomplish that objective, we need 23 to allow students to go on to higher education. 3354 1 The Chancellor of the City 2 University of New York predicted that, if the 3 original projections of a tuition increase came 4 to pass, some students would be denied 5 admission. Others would be excluded from 6 portions that they need for graduation. Faculty 7 members would be laid off, and a similar 8 scenario, coupled with the closing of individual 9 campuses, would follow in parts of the State 10 University of New York. 11 I urge you to consider and to 12 support these two amendments which would restore 13 only enough money -- only enough money to 14 prevent these massive tuition increases from 15 coming to pass and, with this explanation, I now 16 urge your support for these two amendments. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Stavisky, for the benefit of the members, is it 19 fair to categorize the first amendment as being 20 an additional -- an addition to the budget of 21 approximately 400- to $500,000, and that the 22 second amendment is for an addition of about $16 23 million - 3355 1 SENATOR STAVISKY: No, that's not 2 the case. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: -- for 4 the educational opportunity - 5 SENATOR STAVISKY: No, that's not 6 the case. Those are different amendments. The 7 amendments I offer is for an additional 116 8 million for CUNY, an additional 215 million for 9 SUNY to avoid the tuition increases. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Okay. 11 SENATOR STAVISKY: And not along 12 the lines that you have - 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 question is on the first amendment which would 15 restore monies for - 16 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Stafford on the amendment. 19 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President, 20 Senator Skelos' motion which -- was entirely in 21 order, but I'll do this in three or four lines. 22 It is an increase of 330 million in an academic 23 year, 200 million for our cash for this budget. 3356 1 Now, again, it would be nice if 2 we could do many things. There are many worthy 3 causes, but we are trying to pass a budget 4 that's responsible within the framework of what 5 we can afford. 6 Therefore, we would, of course, 7 urge that the amendment be defeated. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 question is on the first amendment. All those 10 in favor signify by saying aye. 11 (Response of "Aye".) 12 Opposed, nay. 13 (Response of "Nay".) 14 The amendment is defeated. 15 The question is on the second 16 amendment. All those in favor signify by saying 17 aye. 18 (Response of "Aye".) 19 Opposed, nay. 20 (Response of "Nay".) 21 The second amendment is 22 defeated. 23 The Secretary will read the last 3357 1 section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect on the 180th day. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. Are there five senators wishing a slow 6 roll call? 7 There are -- seeing five 8 standing, the Secretary will call a slow roll 9 call. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 11 SENATOR ABATE: No. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush, 13 excused. 14 Senator Bruno. 15 (Affirmative indication.) 16 THE SECRETARY: Yes. 17 Senator Connor. 18 (Negative indication.) 19 THE SECRETARY: In the negative. 20 Senator Cook. 21 (There was no response.) 22 Senator DeFrancisco. 23 (There was no response.) 3358 1 Senator DiCarlo. 2 SENATOR DiCARLO: Aye. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator 4 Dollinger. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 6 President, to explain my vote. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Dollinger to explain his vote. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I made my 10 views about this State Operations Budget known 11 earlier. 12 I can't justify voting in the 13 affirmative when we're raiding the state pension 14 supplemention fund for poor, retired workers 15 from this state to fund a tax cut for wealthy 16 people. 17 I can't justify raiding $220 18 million out of the Metropolitan Transit 19 Authority operating account to fund a tax cut 20 for the wealthy. 21 I can't justify taking $62 22 million out of the Love Canal settlement 23 accounts to fund a tax cut for wealthy people. 3359 1 I can't justify taking $23 2 million out of the Environmental Assistance Fund 3 with which we're going to buy sensitive and 4 environmental lands throughout this state to 5 fund a tax cut for wealthy people. 6 I cannot justify, starting down 7 the road to Keno -- to Keno, the video gambling 8 operation, to fund a tax cut for wealthy people. 9 I can't justify taking state 10 funds, moving and shuffling state workers around 11 without some kind of impact statement about what 12 it means to their host region. 13 An lastly, Mr. President, I'm not 14 even sure that we're doing something final here 15 that has any assemblance of finality. 16 Yesterday we approved a state 17 budget, a capital budget and sure enough, there 18 are press releases now circulated that said, "We 19 didn't really mean what we said when we voted 20 for that." 21 Here's one that says, "We're 22 going to restore the money for the stadium" even 23 though yesterday we voted -- this body, over my 3360 1 objection, voted to cut out funding for 2 stadiums. So I'm not sure what it is we do 3 here, but this doesn't make any sense to me. 4 So I will be voting in the 5 negative, Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Dollinger in the negative. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 9 (There was no response.) 10 Senator Farley. 11 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye. 12 Senator Galiber. 13 (There was no response.) 14 Senator Gold. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Gold to explain his vote. 18 SENATOR GOLD: I'll be really 19 very, very brief. I made the point yesterday 20 but I really have to make it again. 21 It's one thing to call the 22 Minority in this house names and say that we 23 were obstreperous, we do this and we do that. 3361 1 The bottom line here is very 2 simple. This is probably the first time maybe 3 in the history of the state, certainly the first 4 time that I know of, when a party said they are 5 going to pass a budget without disclosing at 6 least what the budget was. 7 You have not disclosed the 8 budget. You are giving us a bill at a time, and 9 in doing that, you're asking for trust that you 10 have not earned. And I don't mean that in a 11 fresh way. I mean that we have different 12 political philosophies. 13 If you said in the next four or 14 five days we are going to pass a complete 15 budget, this is the budget, and it's going to 16 take four or five days because there are issues 17 to be discussed, and we understand that you 18 don't want to work all night and you want to 19 take a few bills a day, we could understand 20 that, and that would be a legitimate thing to 21 say, and then we could say, "Well, this is their 22 budget, and their capital program is only this 23 big because on the capital part of it -- for the 3362 1 state purposes rather, they're spending this 2 much", and we could understand that, but this 3 is, probably in all my years, the most unfair 4 way to put out a budget and it's insincere. 5 Maybe it's insincere because you don't know 6 where the bottom line is. 7 As Senator Dollinger so very, 8 very articulately pointed out, yesterday you had 9 a capital projects budget and after Senator 10 DeFrancisco's release, we find out it's not 11 really the total capital budget, and we're told 12 that there are still negotiations going on some 13 place else. 14 So the bottom line of it all is 15 simple. You do not have a budget. And all of 16 these press releases would say that there is 17 agreement between the Governor and the Senate 18 Majority on a budget are absolutely untrue. 19 There is no Republican budget. If there was, it 20 would be sitting out there and, while it would 21 take time to vote for it all, we would know the 22 budget. 23 I vote no. 3363 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Gold in the negative. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gonzalez. 4 SENATOR GONZALEZ: No. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman. 6 SENATOR GOODMAN: Yes. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon. 8 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock. 10 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann. 12 SENATOR HOFFMANN: No. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Holland. 14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson. 16 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Jones. 18 SENATOR JONES: No. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger. 20 SENATOR KRUGER: No. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 22 SENATOR KUHL: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack. 3364 1 SENATOR LACK: Aye. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin. 3 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle. 5 SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 LaValle to explain his vote. 8 SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President, 9 I rise very briefly to -- to say to the body 10 here that the portion in this budget for higher 11 education, despite the remarks that Senator 12 Stavisky had made -- much of his comments were 13 on proposals in the beginning, show that 14 creativity and hard work on the part of the 15 members, the subcomittee under Senator Stafford 16 that I chaired and Senator Stafford's staff, 17 Senator Bruno's staff and my staff, that we were 18 able to come up with very creative ideas that 19 ensure that campuses will not close, that 20 tuition can be ameliorated, that we can have a 21 plan to redesign, to make sure that access and 22 quality will be maintained in both our public 23 institutions. 3365 1 And so, in speaking here today, I 2 think that the staff and the members who worked 3 on this piece in the budget should really be 4 congratulated for their hard work, their 5 ingenuity and the energy that they showed. 6 I vote yes. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 LaValle in the affirmative. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell. 10 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leichter. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 13 to explain my vote. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Leichter to to explain his vote. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah. I 17 appreciate what Senator LaValle said and I also 18 appreciate how difficult this budget is for him 19 because Senator LaValle has been a very staunch 20 fighter for higher education in this state. 21 Senator, you use words as such a 22 "creative budget, ingenuity". You might also 23 use the word "fantasy", because the fact is that 3366 1 the State University and the City University are 2 grievously hurt by this budget, and if this 3 budget should pass, there's going to be very, 4 very substantial increases at approximately 5 $1,000 per student. 6 I think it's appalling that we're 7 denying people the educational opportunities, 8 Senator, that you had and I had when we grew up, 9 the ability to go to a good public educational 10 institution, and make no mistake about it, that 11 the State University of New York will no longer 12 remain in the foreranks of leading state 13 institutions throughout this nation because of 14 the cuts that are being imposed in this budget. 15 You talked about economic 16 development. What is a more significant help to 17 the economic development of this state than to 18 have good academic institutions to give the 19 opportunity to young people to attend these 20 institutions and come out with an education that 21 will allow them to compete in this very complex, 22 difficult, modern, technological, economic 23 world? That's what we should be about. 3367 1 This budget doesn't do it, and no 2 matter how you cut it, no matter how many times 3 Senator Stafford gets up and talks about the 4 economic engine, the fact is that we are hurting 5 this state economically all because of a mad, 6 obsessive drive to give tax cuts to the wealthy. 7 I vote no. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Leichter in the negative. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy. 11 SENATOR LEVY: Aye. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous. 13 (There was no response.) 14 Senator Maltese. 15 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Marcellino. 18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 20 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator 22 Markowitz. 23 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No. 3368 1 THE SECRETARY: Senatoar Maziarz. 2 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Aye. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez. 4 SENATOR MENDEZ: No. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator 6 Montgomery. 7 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula. 9 SENATOR NANULA: No. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nozzolio. 11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato. 13 SENATOR ONORATO: No. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator 15 Oppenheimer. 16 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan. 18 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Paterson. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: No, Mr. 21 President. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present. 23 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye. 3369 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 2 SENATOR RATH: Aye. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 4 SENATOR SALAND: Aye. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Santiago. 6 (There was no response.) 7 Senator Sears. 8 SENATOR SEARS: Aye. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward. 10 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 14 SENATOR SMITH: No. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Solomon. 16 SENATOR SOLOMON: Mr. President, 17 to explain my vote. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Solomon to explain his vote. 20 SENATOR SOLOMON: As a graduate 21 of SUNY and someone who's admired the public 22 college system, both CUNY and SUNY, the CUNY 23 which has produced probably more Nobel Prize 3370 1 award winners than any other institution, I have 2 to vote no on this budget. 3 Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Solomon in the negative. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 7 SENATOR SPANO: Aye. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator 9 Stachowski. 10 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: No. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford. 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stavisky. 14 SENATOR STAVISKY: No. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo. 16 SENATOR TRUNZO: Mr. President - 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Trunzo to explain his vote. 19 SENATOR TRUNZO: -- to explain my 20 vote. 21 Earlier on, I believe Senator 22 Dollinger had made some point in the early part 23 of this debate when I wasn't in the room, and he 3371 1 did it explaining his vote that the -- this 2 particular bill raided the supplemental pension 3 fund. 4 I would just like to let Senator 5 Dollinger know that this bill does not entail or 6 dictate any passage of the Article 7 bill that 7 would raid the state retirement system 8 supplementation reserve fund as outlined by the 9 Governor. 10 It's not in this bill. We are 11 not raiding the money, and there are negotia 12 tions going on to try to develop a bill and 13 something that would be in accord with the 14 unions and the Legislature and the Governor and 15 the Comptroller to work out something for the 16 retirees. 17 I vote in the affirmative. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Trunzo in the affirmative. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully. 21 SENATOR TULLY: Aye. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella. 23 SENATOR VELELLA: Aye. 3372 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker. 2 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon 4 voting in the negative earlier today. 5 Senator Wright. 6 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Secretary will call the absentees. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook. 10 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Cook to explain his vote. 13 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, 14 this has been a very instructive budget season, 15 particularly with relation to the State 16 University, and Senator LaValle is not here 17 right now, but I wanted to compliment him and 18 his staff for the great work that they've done 19 on this budget. 20 I think that the University 21 itself and many of the people who purport to be 22 supporters of the University and, indeed, many 23 of the people who are employed in the University 3373 1 have done the University a great disservice, 2 because they have tried to raise the spectre 3 that there, indeed, is no need for the 4 University to participate in any way in the kind 5 of fiscal restraints that are so incumbent upon 6 the entire state government. 7 Now, I have agreed and have said 8 consistently, as have other people in this 9 chamber, that those cuts that were proposed by 10 the Governor went beyond that which was 11 reasonable to expect, and I think that Senator 12 LaValle and Senator Stafford and their staffs 13 have found ways to mitigate the -- the damage 14 that perhaps those deep cuts would have made, 15 but they have developed a responsible budget, a 16 budget in which the State University will 17 continue to be the same strong university that 18 it has been, and they have reduced the necessity 19 for increases in tuition. 20 And, Mr. President, that is a 21 very, very important and significant thing, plus 22 the fact that we now have a guarantee that the 23 two-year Ag' and Tech' colleges, which are so 3374 1 much an important part of that university's 2 system, will be continued. 3 I vote in the affirmative. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Cook in the affirmative. Continue to call the 6 absentees. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 DeFrancisco. 9 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 11 (There was no response.) 12 Senator Galiber. 13 SENATOR GALIBER: No. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous. 15 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Santiago. 17 (There was no response.) 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 19 the results. 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36, nays 21 22. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 23 is passed. 3375 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Please recognize 3 Senator Saland. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 5 recognizes Senator Saland. 6 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 7 President. 8 Mr. President, there will be an 9 immediate meeting of the Children and Families 10 Committee in the Conference Room. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 12 will be an immediate meeting of the Children and 13 Families Committee in Room 332, the Majority 14 Conference Room. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Please recognize 16 Senator Nanula. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Nanula. 19 SENATOR NANULA: Mr. President, I 20 move that the following bill be discharged from 21 its respective committee and be recommitted with 22 instructions to strike the enacting clause: 23 Bill Number 1201. 3376 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 2 objection, Bill Number 1201 is recommitted and 3 the enacting clause is stricken. 4 The Chair recognizes Senator 5 Wright. 6 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, 7 on page number 18, I offer the following 8 amendments to Calendar Number 90, Senate Print 9 Number 290, and ask the bill retain its place on 10 the Third Reading Calendar. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 amendments are received and adopted. The bill 13 will retain its place on the Third Reading 14 Calendar. 15 Senator Skelos. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr. 17 President. Would you please call up Calendar 18 Number 343. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 Secretary will read Calendar Number 343. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 343, Budget Bill, Senate Print 1758, an act to 23 amend the Labor Law, in relation to boiler 3377 1 inspection requirements. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Stafford, an explanation has been asked for by 5 Senator Paterson. 6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President 7 -- who has the -- Senator Spano, who so ably 8 chairs the Labor Committee, will explain to us 9 this excellent piece of legislation. 10 SENATOR SPANO: Thank you, 11 Senator Stafford, Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 13 recognizes Senator Spano for an explanation. 14 SENATOR SPANO: This bill reduces 15 the unnecessary regulations of business across 16 the state by modifying the commercial boiler 17 inspection program in the Department of Labor. 18 What it does is it exempts the - 19 the inspection of low pressure commercial 20 boilers that have a capacity of 100,000 BTUs. 21 It also reduces the frequency of inspection from 22 one year -- every year to every two years for 23 those commercial boilers with a capacity greater 3378 1 than 100,000 BTUs and it also allows cities and 2 municipalities to make similar amendments in 3 their laws if they have assumed the 4 responsibility for a boiler inspection. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Paterson. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Would Senator 8 Spano yield for a question? 9 SENATOR SPANO: Yes. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 12 Senator Gold has a question. I would be willing 13 to yield to him. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, Mr. 15 President. It's not so much a question, it's a 16 request. 17 At the committee meeting, which 18 is public and everyone knows I'm giving an 19 accurate portrayal, we asked certain questions 20 and I asked some specific questions on this bill 21 as to how you get a handle on what areas were 22 involved, what kind of businesses or whether any 23 public buildings were involved, and while there 3379 1 was a discussion, I was told by a staff member 2 that someone would get back to me with the 3 information. 4 Perhaps, Senator Spano, we could 5 lay this one aside, do some of the others and we 6 could get that information. I want to be 7 cooperative and I know everyone wants to be 8 cooperative, and when we're told that we will 9 get the information, we assume we'll get it, and 10 I know there's no bad faith here, but perhaps we 11 could just do another bill or two 12 and - 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Spano, would you like to respond to Senator 15 Gold? 16 SENATOR SPANO: Mr. President, if 17 it's all right with the chairman, Senator Gold, 18 I have not had a chance to discuss some of the 19 concerns you raised with the staff in the 20 committee, and maybe I can answer the questions 21 for you. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, in 23 all fairness, I appreciate that, and I respect 3380 1 your expertise, but I'd like to be able to see 2 the information and take a look at it and then 3 decide maybe I don't need a debate or maybe 4 there should or should not be, but I think when 5 the comments are made in the committee, 6 particularly the Finance Committee, with bills 7 coming directly to the floor, that we would get 8 certain information, the understanding has kind 9 of always been that we would get the information 10 prior to being in the middle of a debate. 11 So I don't think it upsets 12 anything, Senator. There's about five, six 13 other bills, and I don't think we're talking 14 about a lot -- a long period of time. It's just 15 that I think that that would be a fairer and 16 more orderly way to do it. 17 SENATOR SPANO: I mean, the one 18 question I know that you did ask, Senator Gold, 19 was with respect to public buildings, and there 20 are -- there are no public buildings that we're 21 able to find that would -- that have commercial 22 boilers that have in excess of 100,000 BTUs. I 23 mean, a 100,000 BTU boiler is smaller than the 3381 1 size of our desks, so we're not talking about 2 public buildings in terms of -- I mean, you make 3 -- a commercial boiler is only designated as 4 such because it may be in a commercial 5 establishment, it might be a grocery store or a 6 bar. If you define a "public building" that 7 way, then the answer will be yes. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, if 9 I may. 10 Senator Spano, this is a classic 11 situation where we may not even have to debate 12 it, I don't know, but it seems to me that, in 13 good faith, we were told at the committee 14 meeting that we would have certain information, 15 and I'd just as soon see it, sit with a few 16 minutes and it may answer my question, but this 17 is not what I anticipate when a staff person 18 says, "we'll get you the information" that -- in 19 the course of the debate. That's all. 20 SENATOR SPANO: Mr. President, 21 can we lay the bill aside just for a few minutes 22 while we try to get the answers for Senator 23 Gold? 3382 1 SENATOR GOLD: I appreciate the 2 courtesy, Senator. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 4 will be laid aside temporarily. 5 Senator Skelos. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: 344. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Secretary will read Calendar Number 344. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 344, Budget Bill, Senate Print 1803, an act to 11 amend the Civil Service Law, in relation to 12 authorizing the payment of additional 13 compensation to certain employees in the Office 14 of General Services. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Stafford. 17 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: An 19 explanation has been asked of Calendar Number 20 344 by Senator Leichter. 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you. 22 I believe Senator Lack has the 23 information. 3383 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Lack to respond to the explanation request. 3 SENATOR LACK: Yes. Thank you, 4 Mr. President. 5 Senator Leichter made the 6 request, Mr. President? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Leichter made the request. 9 SENATOR LACK: Senator Leichter, 10 this would allow an evaluation of the effect of 11 extra compensation on productivity of -- before 12 our generation, Senator Leichter, it's sort of a 13 Stakhanovite system that they would like to put 14 in, if you do well, you get paid more and it's 15 based on productivity. It's part of an 16 agreement that has -- that has been reached. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 18 recognizes Senator Leichter. 19 SENATOR LACK: I can go into more 20 detail, if that's what your - 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator Lack, 22 if you would yield. 23 SENATOR LACK: Surely. 3384 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: What I'm 2 concerned about, among other things, is the way 3 that productivity is going to be determined and, 4 frankly, I'm a bit concerned whether this is 5 going to be done politically. 6 Frankly, we've seen this 7 administration make many political appointee 8 appointments. Now, are we going to reward these 9 political appointments on the claim they're 10 producing so much? 11 SENATOR LACK: Senator Leichter, 12 this has been done pursuant to an agreement with 13 the Civil Service Employees Association, CSEA, 14 and I would hardly want to have an accusation of 15 politics involving the members of such a 16 laudatory collective bargaining unit. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: So is there 18 now a memorandum of understanding that's already 19 been entered into with the CSEA? 20 SENATOR LACK: Yes. It's a - 21 participate in pilot studies to evaluate whether 22 extra compensation serves as an incentive 23 pursuant to an agreement with CSEA. 3385 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: All right. 2 Does that set forth a criteria to judge 3 productivity? 4 SENATOR LACK: Yes. There is a 5 performance record which lists everything from 6 tardiness through maintained orderly work area, 7 responds well to supervision, et cetera. There 8 are guidelines for scoring that run over a 9 couple of pages on how this will be measured. 10 Senator, if you would like, I'll have them shown 11 to you right away. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, let 13 me ask you another question. I don't know if 14 you know the answer to this. 15 I see that this agreement relates 16 to the Department of General Services. I was 17 sort of surprised to read in the paper the last 18 few days in relation to the possible move of 19 state employees to Kingston, that somebody who 20 claimed to be the Commissioner of the Department 21 of General Services was answering for the 22 Department and for the administration. 23 To your knowledge, have we 3386 1 confirmed a commissioner of the Department of 2 General Services? 3 SENATOR LACK: No. We have an 4 acting commissioner, I would assume. We have 5 not confirmed the Commissioner himself. There 6 is a person who has been designated by the 7 Governor to be the Commissioner of General -- of 8 the Office of General Services and that is an 9 appointment that is pending confirmation in the 10 Senate. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator Lack, 12 if you would be so good as to continue to yield. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Lack, do you continue to yield? The Senator 15 continues to yield. 16 SENATOR LACK: Yes, I will, Mr. 17 President. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Do you know 19 who the acting commissioner is? 20 SENATOR LACK: Yes. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: And who is 22 that gentleman? 23 SENATOR LACK: Mr. Delaney. 3387 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Is that the 2 same person who the Governor has appointed as 3 commissioner? 4 SENATOR LACK: Well, he has 5 nominated him to be - 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Nominated him. 7 SENATOR LACK: -- commissioner 8 pursuant to confirmation of this Senate, yes. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Right. Do you 10 know why his name has not appeared before the 11 Senate for confirmation? 12 SENATOR LACK: Excuse me for 13 laughing, Senator. Is this - 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm laughing 15 too. 16 SENATOR LACK: No, no, Senator. 17 Excuse me. Is this coming from the same side of 18 the aisle that was also standing up saying, "Why 19 are all these names being rushed for 20 confirmation before this state Senate?" Well, 21 Senator, we heard, there's a budget that we're 22 currently trying to do and Mr. Delaney's name is 23 coming through in the course of things. 3388 1 I would dare say, I would hate to 2 see what happened if, all of a sudden at 20 3 after 5:00 this afternoon, Senator Kuhl, acting 4 as President of the Senate, said, "There will be 5 an immediate meeting of the Finance Committee in 6 Room 332" and we rushed back and said, "We have 7 the confirmation of Commissioner Delaney", at 8 which time, Senator, somebody over there would 9 be standing up saying, "Why is this being rushed 10 through?" I guess we just can't win. 11 But Mr. Delaney is acting 12 commissioner. It is going through the process 13 of the Senate, Senator, and I assure you it will 14 be here shortly. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 16 assure you that if the distinguished presiding 17 officer said we're now going to have a Senate 18 Finance Committee without previous notice to 19 this Minority we would complain, but I don't 20 think anything kept you two weeks ago from 21 saying, "In a week, we will consider Mr. 22 Delaney." 23 My concern is important decisions 3389 1 are being made as to moving state employees by 2 somebody who purports to be the commissioner. 3 He didn't seem to tell the newspapers, but it 4 may also be that the newspaper reporter got it 5 wrong, that this gentleman was an acting 6 commissioner and it is an important position. 7 It's an -- it's important decisions that he's 8 making, and he ought to come before us for 9 confirmation, but in a deliberate fashion, not 10 at 5:20 in the afternoon but with appropriate 11 notice. 12 SENATOR LACK: Thank you, 13 Senator, and the Majority will certainly take 14 under very speedy advisement your request that 15 we accelerate the pace of all appointments for 16 confirmation. 17 Thank you for that advice. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 19 Secretary will read the last section. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 21 President, excuse me. May I ask Senator Lack 22 one question, if he - 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3390 1 Lack, do you yield to Senator Dollinger? 2 SENATOR LACK: Yes, Mr. 3 President. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Was any 5 consideration -- again through you, Mr. 6 President. Was any consideration given in this 7 bill to making a report of the awards granted to 8 the members of the Legislature? 9 SENATOR LACK: No, Senator. 10 Mr. President, to my knowledge, 11 there wasn't. This Article 7 bill merely 12 implements the agreement that was reached 13 between the state and CSEA. One would assume a 14 matter by which the agreement was made, which is 15 between the executive and CSEA, that there is a 16 constant review, an evaluation of the program. 17 After all, it is defined to be a pilot program 18 to measure the efficiency and the efficacy of 19 these types of incentives, and it's under 20 constant review as to whether or not it works. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 22 Senator Lack. 23 I just note that, in many other 3391 1 instances when we do this kind of thing, we 2 require that a report be filed with the 3 Legislature, either the Speaker or Majority 4 Leader or the respective committees that would 5 oversee things like this. It might just be 6 interesting for the Legislature at some time to 7 know how this program works and to know who gets 8 the awards and do that some time in the future. 9 I understand - 10 SENATOR LACK: There will be an 11 OGS targets cleaning and maintenance personnel 12 and I'm sure that, if you would like to know how 13 well that's worked, OGS would be quite happy to 14 supply you with information. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 16 Mr. President, just a thought. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 Secretary will read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3392 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 Senator Skelos. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you please 6 call up Calendar Number 345. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Secretary will read Calendar Number 345. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 345, Budget Bill, Senate Print 1810, an act to 11 repeal Section 28 of Chapter 169 of the Laws of 12 1994, relating to certain provisions. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Stafford, an explanation has been asked for by 16 Senator Paterson. 17 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. 19 Yield again to Senator Lack. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Lack for an explanation. 22 SENATOR LACK: Thank you, Mr. 23 President. Thank you, Senator Stafford. 3393 1 This Article 7 bill would improve 2 the business climate by eliminating the fee that 3 vendors are charged to participate in the 4 state's procurement process because it elimin 5 ates special revenue procurement accounts. It 6 will reduce revenue by approximately $700,000. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 8 Explanation satisfactory? 9 The Secretary will read the last 10 section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll.) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr. 21 President. Would you call up Calendar Number 22 346. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3394 1 Secretary will read Calendar Number 346. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 346, Budget Bill, Senate Print 1830, an act to 4 amend the Tax Law, in relation to corporate 5 mergers, consolidations and acquisitions. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation, 7 please. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Stafford, an explanation has been asked for by 10 Senator Paterson. 11 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President, 12 this was really in effect -- there's probably 13 some people have been involved with a tax on 14 mergers and acquisitions. It really never 15 worked because it didn't raise that much money 16 -- it did not raise that much money because of, 17 I guess some people would say good lawyers. 18 Other people would say other things. 19 However, it isn't really friendly 20 to business, obviously, and we think it's a good 21 bill to repeal. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 Secretary will read the last section. 3395 1 THE SECRETARY: Section - 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Paterson. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: I just had a 5 brief question for Senator Stafford. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Stafford, do you yield to Senator Paterson? The 8 Senator yields. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 10 Stafford, I don't see any fiscal impact one way 11 or the other in this piece of legislation, but 12 in a lot of respects this is what I call ADC 13 legislation, instead of Aid to Depend Children, 14 it's Aid to Dependent Corporations. I don't 15 understand why we should be in a sense letting 16 them use the tax codes or subsidies or any kind 17 of interests in order to, say, for instance, 18 acquire another business which could cause us to 19 lose jobs. That's the only - 20 SENATOR STAFFORD: I understand 21 and, as a lawyer to a good lawyer, the income 22 from the legislation was de minimis, and if we 23 look up that, it means there wasn't much money. 3396 1 Also -- also, on a serious note, 2 I don't think that New York should be taxing. 3 We don't think New York -- the Governor does not 4 think New York should be taxing businesses any 5 place we can. It's not a subsidy. It's just 6 not having a tax that we don't have in other 7 jurisdictions. 8 And, you know, if we're going to 9 -- I want to stress this, and I would say to 10 you -- I would say to you maybe that I'm glad 11 you asked the question, but that isn't quite 12 true, but I want to emphasize, again, though, 13 that for years and years and years, we've been 14 taxing businesses every way we could, and we 15 simply lost one company after another, good 16 companies, Fortune 500 companies, small 17 businesses, and this is a time when we're saying 18 that, if you're involved in this legitimate 19 activity, you're not going to be taxed in this 20 state, and I not only would want to pass this 21 bill, but I'm sure there are many others we 22 could pass like it. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3397 1 Paterson. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 3 I don't have a better friend in this chamber 4 than Senator Stafford, and he's always -- except 5 for Senator Galiber or Galiber if you're 6 Caribbean, but Senator Stafford has always 7 invigorated me, and today what he's saying is 8 that this legislation is de minimis which I 9 think is from de minimis res manes lex which is 10 of the Latin that means that in the end it 11 doesn't really make -- it doesn't have a real 12 effect as in a building you might use red piping 13 instead of gold. It might not have been what 14 the customer asked for, but in the end it 15 satisfies the same purpose. 16 So you're saying that the 17 legislation satisfies the purpose, it might be 18 set up in a way that appears to give an 19 advantage, but in the end it doesn't give an 20 advantage. 21 My only other question, Senator, 22 is, has the Tax Department ever conducted a 23 study to make sure that it doesn't make a 3398 1 difference? 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: There was not 3 a study made. However, we have corresponded and 4 been in contact with them and they, of course, 5 agree with the legislation and support it. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Dollinger. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 9 President, on the bill, and I would just like to 10 pick up on a point that Senator Stafford - 11 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would just 12 happen to also mention -- excuse me, Senator - 13 the Tax Department drafted the bill. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Dollinger. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 17 President, just on the bill. 18 I want to follow up on a comment 19 that Senator Stafford made. He said that this 20 was unfriendly to business. We've done a couple 21 of these other Article 7 bills that showed that 22 we were unfriendly to business, and I guess it's 23 one of those rhetorical questions. Who was so 3399 1 unfriendly to business before I got here? What 2 happened before 1992? There must have been a 3 period of time when someone in this chamber was 4 very unfriendly to business. 5 SENATOR STAFFORD: Could I - 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And I, 7 frankly, can't understand who was so unfriendly 8 to business. I look around the chamber now and 9 I don't see people who are unfriendly to 10 business, and I'm just intrigued by how did we 11 ever get to be so unfriendly with business? 12 Maybe these bills were passed by 13 some other Senate in some other state. 14 Certainly not anything I've heard in this 15 chamber suggests we have been unfriendly to 16 business. I'm just astounded. We keep saying 17 these things are all evidence of being 18 unfriendly to business, and I would wonder who 19 was here before 1992 that passed this law that 20 was so unfriendly to business? 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: I'll start 22 with Senator Perry. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would Senator 3400 1 Perry vote for a bill like this? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 3 Gentlemen, gentlemen. Senator Dollinger. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just through 5 you, Mr. President. Was Senator Perry in the 6 Majority then, Senator? Maybe I missed 7 something. 8 Senator Jones properly points 9 out, had he been in the Majority, he would still 10 be here and I wouldn't. 11 SENATOR STAFFORD: This is 12 probably making everyone -- making their heart 13 just filled to see you and I here at the end of 14 the day after we've been in the trenches. 15 I would make one final point, one 16 final point. You asked about -- and I think 17 it's a serious question -- how have we been 18 unfriendly to business? 19 One morning -- one evening we all 20 left, everyone went back to where they were 21 staying and went home. We came back in the 22 morning and we had put -- we had put a $50 23 million tax on an industry. Now, I don't call 3401 1 that friendly, and it's the type of thing that 2 was done and we've got to stop doing it and I 3 think this is a step in the right direction. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just through 5 you, Mr. President. 6 Senator Stafford, do you recall 7 how you voted on that $50 million tax? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are you 9 asking Senator Stafford to yield, Senator 10 Dollinger? 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm just 12 trying to find out whether that was in the 13 friendly or unfriendly period, Mr. President. 14 SENATOR STAFFORD: You know, 15 there's no more highly thought of person that 16 sees the light. 17 I came here when I was young. I 18 came here probably a lot younger than you are 19 now, and I have learned, and if you're asking if 20 I made a decision and do I understand, and 21 unless we straighten the state around, unless we 22 stop this spending more than we take in and 23 unless we stop placing the state in debt, we're 3402 1 going to have nothing, and again, I keep saying 2 this, and I don't say it really as well as I 3 should, but my point is, it's the private 4 sector, it's the business -- you're relatively 5 close to business. I don't want to -- you 6 understand. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Oh, I do. 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: You have 9 relatives involved in business. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm involved 11 myself. 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. And we 13 all do, and if these people don't make a profit 14 and they aren't able to support this state with 15 revenues, then all we talk about here, all we 16 talked about, we just aren't going to be able to 17 do it, and state is going to just keep going 18 down, down, down 'til there's nothing, and I 19 feel very strongly about it. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 21 President, I thank Senator Stafford for his 22 response. I've also enjoyed the Adirondack 23 raconteur in the answers that you've given me 3403 1 this evening and during the day today. Some day 2 maybe I'll find out who was so unfriendly to 3 business when we did all these things and I'll 4 have the answer I was seeking. 5 Thank you. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Secretary will read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 20. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll.) 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 14 the results when tabulated. 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: I am going to 16 explain the bill. Before I do, I'll just 17 mention - 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Stafford. Senator Stafford, we're in the middle 20 of a roll call. We're in the middle of a roll 21 call, Senator. 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sorry. 23 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 3404 1 the negative on Calendar Number 346 are Senators 2 Connor, Galiber, Kruger, Leichter, Markowitz, 3 Onorato, Paterson and Stivisky. Ayes 51, nays 4 8. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6 is passed. 7 Senator Skelos. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr. 9 President. Would you call up Calendar Number 10 347. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Secretary will read Calendar Number 347. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 347, Budget Bill, Senate Print 1836, an act to 15 amend the Public Authorities Law, the New York 16 State Medical Care Facilities Finance Agency Act 17 and the Facilities Development Corporation Act, 18 in relation to the succession by the Dormitory 19 Authority. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Stafford, an explanation has been asked for by 23 Senator Paterson. 3405 1 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President, 2 this will merge the Dormitory Authority, the 3 Medical Care Finance Agency and the Facilities 4 Development Corporation into one unit. 5 I've been around here and this 6 has been discussed for 20 years. What it will 7 do, it will provide efficiency. We'll have one 8 head. There will be less administration, and 9 also there will not be duplication of work. We 10 think it's a bill whose time has come. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 13 recognizes Senator Leichter. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah. If 15 Senator Stafford would be good enough to yield. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Stafford, would you yield to Senator Leichter? 18 The Senator yields. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, could 20 you tell us how much, if any, saving is 21 anticipated from this merger? 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: First, there 23 will be 105 million available to the state in 3406 1 reserves and 4- to 5 million savings in 2 operation every year, and that, we think, is not 3 de minimis. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator, 5 if you would be good enough to yield. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Stafford, do you continue to yield? The Senator 8 yields. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, the 10 reserves, Senator, don't immediately become 11 available to the state to be used. I assume 12 these reserves are there for various bonds that 13 have been issued, and while the reserves may be 14 transferred to the newly merged entity of the 15 Dormitory Authority, the fact is that the 16 reserves are there for a specific purpose; isn't 17 that so? 18 SENATOR STAFFORD: General 19 operating reserves not pledged to bonds and 20 become available due to the merger. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm sorry. 22 Thank you. 23 If you would be so good as to 3407 1 yield. I just apologize because I was speaking 2 while you were trying to answer. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Senator yields. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. I 6 understand from counsel that one of the 7 components of the reserve is the sale of an 8 asset at 80 Centre Street, is that correct? 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: The Dormitory 10 Authority at the present time has the title - 11 -- has 30 million -- it would pay that over to 12 the state for the title to 80 Centre Street. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: And is it the 14 intention of the Governor -- is it part of the 15 budget to use the proceeds from the sale of that 16 asset in this year's budget to be operating 17 expenses? 18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes, yes. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: So it's a one 20 shot, is that correct? 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: I just asked 22 that and - 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: The answer was 3408 1 yes. 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: Non-recurring 3 resources. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you. 5 Mr. President, if Senator 6 Stafford - 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Stafford, do you continue to yield? 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- would be 10 good enough to continue to yield. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Senator continues to yield. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: One issue that 14 I understand is raised by this consolidation is 15 which projects are now going to be covered by 16 the Wicks Law, which are going to be covered by 17 the procedures that the Dormitory Authority has 18 used. Can you enlighten us on that? 19 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. That was 20 explained in the Finance Committee meeting. The 21 programs are not changed, and if they are 22 covered, they remain covered. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: One of the 3409 1 issues that I see as raised is -- maybe you 2 would be good enough to address this for us - 3 whether the combination of Medicaid cuts, 4 greater use of managed care and disuse in the 5 use of the MCFFA reserves, will it have a 6 negative impact on hospitals paying their 7 debts? 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: I understand 9 what you're asking. With the merger, it's not 10 going to change the way at all of -- the debt is 11 paid any hospital would have. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 13 Stafford, I - 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Stafford - 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- I think our 17 concern is whether we are impairing the ability 18 of these institutions and eventually, of course, 19 of the agency which issued the bonds of repaying 20 the debt. 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, of 22 course, many are insured by the federal 23 government but, again, you're asking whether the 3410 1 reduction in Medicaid is going to cause a 2 problem for these hospitals to repay their 3 debt. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: If I may just 5 interrupt, Senator. 6 SENATOR STAFFFORD: Please. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: I mean, it's 8 not only the Medicaid cuts obviously as you and 9 I know are going to have an impact on the 10 hospitals, many of which are already in great 11 difficulty, but now you combine that with 12 managed care and, understandably, that's not 13 part of this bill, and that issue would exist 14 irrespective of whether we had this 15 consolidation or not. 16 But then you add a third element, 17 which is that you raided the reserves of the 18 agency, which is now being folded into the Dor 19 mitory Authority. So if you put all three of 20 these together, I just wonder whether we're not 21 impairing the ability to meet the debt 22 obligation on these bonds? 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Again, it's a 3411 1 good question. It's a very detailed question, 2 not complex, but I am advised that bond counsel 3 and the agency have assured us that this will 4 have none of the -- will result in none of the 5 problems to which you are referring, and I think 6 if you think about it with your question, they 7 are opposite -- not opposite, they are separate 8 from really the payment. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Stafford, do you continue to yield to Senator 11 Leichter? 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you. 14 Let me just ask one other question that concerns 15 me. 16 We're now making the newly 17 consolidated agency, which is really the 18 Dormitory Authority -- we're folding the health/ 19 medical facilities into the Dormitory 20 Authority. Is the Dormitory Authority now going 21 to have legal responsibility for the bonds that 22 have been issued in connection with the 23 financing of health facilities? 3412 1 SENATOR STAFFORD: It's just like 2 any legal entity. Area successors are assigned, 3 and you'll find that that's really the vehicle 4 by which legality changes from one entity to the 5 other. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: If I may then 7 just on the bill. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Leichter, on the bill. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: I thank you, 11 Senator Stafford. 12 I think a lot of questions are 13 raised by this. Senator Stafford has certainly 14 done his best, and it's a very able job as he 15 always does in answering them, but there are a 16 lot of real uncertainties and, while the idea of 17 merging two agencies, I think, is one that 18 instinctively appeals to us, it may save some 19 money which certainly is favorable, but I think 20 a lot of very tricky financial and legal issues 21 are raised, some of them that Senator Stafford 22 and I discussed. 23 The last point that was made by 3413 1 Senator Stafford's answer that we're now making 2 the Dormitory Authority -- which has been, I 3 think, a very successful state agency, has 4 served all of us, has done well -- to make that 5 agency responsible now for the bonds that were 6 issued by the medical care facilities, that 7 raises some problems, concerns, in my mind. I 8 guess in one respect the state is responsible 9 for them in any event because, just as in 1975, 10 those of you who were here with me remember when 11 we had to go out and save UDC and other state 12 authorities, I assume, if they get in trouble, 13 we would have to step in again. 14 Nevertheless, I just wonder 15 whether that's not going to affect the price at 16 which the Dormitory Authority is going to have 17 to go out and raise money? They've done very 18 well. They're considered a very prudent, a very 19 creditworthy agency that is terribly important 20 to us. Now they're taking on the obligation of 21 these health facilities that are in much worse 22 financial state, and I just wondered to what 23 extent that's going to affect the price which 3414 1 the Dormitory Authority is going to have to pay 2 for money? 3 I think it's a concern. I don't 4 know what the answer is, but I just question 5 whether all of these issues have been thought 6 through carefully. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Secretary will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 9. This 10 act shall take effect on June 1st. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 15 the results when tabulated. 16 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 17 the negative on Calendar Number 347 are Senators 18 Connor, Galiber, Kruger, Leichter, Onorato, 19 Paterson and Solomon. Ayes -- also, Senator 20 Abate and Senator Stavisky. Ayes 50, nays 9. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 Senator Skelos. 3415 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 2 call up Calendar Number 348, please. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Secretary will read Calendar Number 348. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 348, Budget Bill, Senate Print 1843, an act to 7 amend the Tax Law, in relation to reflecting the 8 repeal of Article 15 of the Tax Law and to 9 repeal such Article 15, relating to a tax on the 10 transfer of certain insurance awards. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Stafford, an explanation has been asked for by 14 Senator Leichter. 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: Very quickly, 16 Mr. President. This was not only de minimis, 17 what we received from this law, we got zero. It 18 was -- it was sued and -- what's the word - 19 challenged, and it would have ended up, the 20 department spending more to collect than what we 21 would get, and the person really who worked on 22 this for years to get this passed was Senator 23 Velella. 3416 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Secretary will read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 Senator Paterson. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 12 would you please recognize Senator Stachowski 13 and Senator Montgomery. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 15 would recognize Senator Stachowski. 16 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 17 President, may I have unanimous consent to be 18 recorded in the negative on Bill 347, Calendar 19 Number - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 21 objection, Senator Stachowski will be recorded 22 in the negative on Calendar Number 347. 23 Senator Montgomery. 3417 1 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr. 2 President. I would like to be recorded in the 3 negative on Calendar 346. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Skelos. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Could we just 7 return to reports of standing committees? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 9 objection, Senator Montgomery will be recorded 10 in the negative on Calendar Number 346. 11 We'll return to reports of 12 standing committees. 13 Senator Skelos. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you call 15 up Calendar Number 343, please. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Back to 17 the calendar. 18 The Secretary will read Calendar 19 Number 343. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 343, Budget Bill, Senate Print 1758, an act to 22 amend the Labor Law, in relation to boiler 23 inspection requirements. 3418 1 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Gold. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, the staff 5 member came to see me on this. We've discussed 6 it. I believe that the gentleman I spoke to 7 gave me the best information he has which is 8 that the Labor Department does not really have 9 too good enough information. 10 I personally don't know where 11 these boilers are. Some of them, I think, are 12 in establishments that might be dangerous to 13 people, I don't know. We don't have to debate 14 it all, but I personally am going to vote in the 15 negative because I just don't have enough 16 information to make me comfortable. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 Secretary will read the last section. 19 Senator Paterson. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 21 I was going to ask Senator Spano just to yield 22 to a brief question. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3419 1 Spano, will you yield to Senator Paterson? 2 SENATOR SPANO: Yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Senator yields. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: And the 6 question was my understanding was that the 7 actual -- that the actual size of the boiler did 8 not relate necessarily to the effect of some of 9 the hazards. If you can clear that up for me, I 10 would appreciate it; otherwise, I would not want 11 to support the bill. 12 SENATOR SPANO: Could you say 13 that again, Senator? 14 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm sorry, 15 Senator Spano. My question is what does -- the 16 size of the boiler, how does that affect the 17 hazards that can be created when a boiler is 18 defective? 19 SENATOR SPANO: This issue came 20 to the forefront years ago, Senator, actually 21 back, it was an incident in the phone company 22 back in the '50s when an employee had jumped out 23 the safety controls on the boiler and bypassed 3420 1 the system. There's a low water cut-off. 2 There's pressure relief valve. There are 3 different controls on a boiler that would 4 prevent a problem. 5 This person -- this was a high 6 pressure boiler, bypassed the system and it 7 turned that boiler into a rocket and -- which 8 caused the major problem, a big hoopla, and 9 resulted in this type of an inspection system. 10 This -- we do nothing to exempt 11 -- we do nothing to change those high pressure 12 boilers. The high pressure boiler is the type 13 of boiler you would see at a dry cleaner, at a 14 major apartment building, all those -- the 15 inspection procedures are there. This is only a 16 low pressure boiler which operates at a steam 17 pressure of anywhere between four to seven 18 pounds versus a high pressure which is 15 pounds 19 or more, and a 100 BTU boiler, as I said to 20 Senator Gold, is smaller than our desks. It's 21 smaller than the boilers that you would see at 22 any of our homes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3421 1 Paterson, is that explanation satisfactory, 2 because what is happening is several of your 3 members are indicating they want to be recorded 4 in the negative. We can't do that because a 5 roll call has not been called, but I would be 6 happy, if that's the end of the discussion, to 7 have the Secretary read the last section so that 8 members like -- who have -- are indicating that 9 they would like to be recorded in the negative 10 could be voted. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Let's read the 12 last section, Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Secretary will read the last section. 15 Thank you, Senator Paterson. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll.) 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 22 the results when tabulated. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 3422 1 would recognize Senator Larkin. 2 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, I 3 would like unanimous consent to be -- to 4 abstain. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 6 objection, Senator Larkin will be recorded as 7 abstaining on the vote. 8 Senator Nanula to explain his 9 vote? 10 SENATOR NANULA: No. I'm 11 actually asking for -- are we finished with the 12 last one? I apologize. I apologize. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 14 the results when tabulated. 15 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 16 the negative on Calendar Number 343 are Senators 17 Abate, Connor, Dollinger, Galiber, Kruger, 18 Leichter, Markowitz, Montgomery, Nanula, 19 Onorato, Paterson, Smith, Stavisky. Also, 20 Senators Oppenheimer, Mendez and Jones. Ayes 21 42, nays 16. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 23 is passed. 3423 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Could we return 3 to reports of standing committees? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 5 return to reports of standing committees. 6 The Secretary will read. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland, 8 from the Committee on Children and Families, 9 reports the following bill directly for third 10 reading: Senate Print 3926-A, by Senator 11 Saland, an act to amend the Family Protection 12 and Domestic Violence Intervention Act of 1994, 13 in relation to changing the date of operation of 14 the computerized registry. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 16 objection, the bill is reported directly to 17 third reading. 18 Senator Nanula. 19 SENATOR NANULA: Mr. President, I 20 would like to be -- I would like to request, I 21 should say, unanimous consent to be recorded in 22 the negative on Calendars Number 346 and 347. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 3424 1 objection, Senator Nanula will be recorded in 2 the negative on Calendars Number 346 and 347. 3 SENATOR NANULA: Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Smith. 6 SENATOR SMITH: Mr. President, I 7 would like unanimous consent to be recorded in 8 the negative on 346 and 347. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 10 objection, Senator Smith will be recorded in the 11 negative on Calendars Number 346 and 347. 12 Senator Abate. 13 SENATOR ABATE: I'm not sure 14 whether I was recorded in the negative. I ask 15 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative 16 on 346. I believe you have me in the negative. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 18 objection, Senator Abate will be recorded in the 19 negative on Calendar Number 346. 20 SENATOR ABATE: Thank you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Skelos. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 3425 1 there being no further business, I move we 2 adjourn until Friday, March 31st, 1995 at 10:00 3 a.m. sharp. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 5 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until 6 tomorrow, Friday, March 31st, at 10:00 a.m. 7 For all the members who can still 8 hear me, there will be an immediate meeting of 9 the Minority in the Minority Conference Room. 10 (Whereupon, at 5:59 p.m., the 11 Senate adjourned.) 12 13 14 15 16 17