Tuesday, April 4, 1995

3855 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 April 4, 1995 10 10:05 a.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 SENATOR JOHN A. DeFRANCISCO, Acting President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 3856 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3 The Senate will come to order. Would everyone 4 please rise and repeat with me the Pledge of 5 Allegiance. 6 (The assemblage repeated the 7 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. ) 8 In the absence of clergy, may we 9 bow our heads in a moment of silence. 10 (A moment of silence was 11 observed. ) 12 Reading of the Journal. 13 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 14 Monday, April 3rd. The Senate met pursuant to 15 adjournment, Senator Kuhl in the Chair upon 16 designation of the Temporary President. Prayer 17 by the Reverend Father Peter Young, Blessed 18 Sacrament Church, Bolton Landing. The Journal 19 of Sunday, April 2nd, was read and approved. On 20 motion, Senate adjourned. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 22 Without objection, the Journal stands approved 23 as read. 3857 1 Presentation of petitions. 2 Messages from the Assembly. 3 Messages from the Governor. 4 Reports of standing committees. 5 Reports of select committees. 6 Communications and reports from 7 state officers. 8 Motions and resolutions. 9 Senator Bruno. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, on 11 page 26, I'm going to offer the following 12 amendments to Calendar Number 360, Print Number 13 3957-A, and ask that that bill retain its place 14 on the Third Reading Calendar. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 16 Amendments received. 17 SENATOR BRUNO: And, Mr. 18 President, I'd like to, at this time, call up 19 Calendar Number 360. I believe the bills have 20 to be distributed, and I recognize, Mr. 21 President -- would you recognize Senator Spano. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 23 Senator Spano. 3858 1 SENATOR SPANO: Mr. President, 2 just an announcement for the members of the 3 Senate Labor Committee that the meeting 4 previously scheduled for 11:00 o'clock in Room 5 509 in the LOB, will be called at 10:45 in Room 6 123 of the Capitol. It's 10:45 is the Senate 7 Labor Committee to consider confirmation of two 8 appointments from the Governor. 9 Thank you. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 11 The Secretary will read Senate Print 3957-B. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 360, Budget Bill, Senate Print 3957-B, an act 14 making an appropriation for the support of 15 government. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 17 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, is 18 there a message of necessity at the desk? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 20 Yes, there is. 21 SENATOR BRUNO: I move we accept 22 the message, Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3859 1 All in favor of accepting the message signify by 2 saying aye. 3 (Response of "Aye.") 4 Opposed nay. 5 (There was no response. ) 6 The message is accepted. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 9 Senator Gold. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, I'm told 11 that the bills are being distributed but, in all 12 fairness, there's nobody distributing the bill. 13 I just want to see the bill if that's not - 14 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 15 can we stand at ease in a few minutes while we 16 distribute the bill. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 18 The Senate will stand at ease. The bill is now 19 being distributed. 20 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 21 hopefully, Calendar Number 360 has been 22 distributed, and people in the chamber have had 23 a chance to review that bill, and I think at 3860 1 this time we should take it up. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3 Senator Bruno, Senator Paterson, before we went 4 in recess, requested an explanation. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 6 President. 7 We had this bill before us last 8 night, and some question was raised on the floor 9 that appeared to be very appropriate. We've had 10 some conversations just by way of bringing 11 everyone up to speed with the Comptroller's 12 office, with the Speaker, and there was enough 13 confusion in the language in this bill that the 14 Comptroller's office had indicated it would take 15 them several days if not weeks to make a 16 judgment on which people should be paid and 17 which weren't authorized to be paid. 18 So hearing that, the Speaker and 19 I had agreed that it would serve no purpose to 20 create that unnecessary delay in paychecks, so 21 we laid the bill aside. 22 Through the night, thanks to some 23 good work on the part of staff people and some 3861 1 of the others that were assisting us here, we 2 have cleaned up the language in the form of the 3 amendment that's there at the desk, with an "A" 4 and "B" version, and that language does this: 5 It very -- well, first of all, 6 part of the confusion was the bill talked about 7 the executive branch and the executive branch 8 includes some 2,000, 2100 people, executive 9 branch. Oh, thank you, I'm used to dealing with 10 small numbers here, it's the whole 200,000 that 11 are in the executive branch, that work for the 12 state agencies; so, of course, that would create 13 a lot of confusion because it was contradictory 14 in language. So that word "branch" that created 15 most of the problems has been changed to 16 "Executive Chamber," which has about 200 people 17 in it. So from branch 200,000 to chamber 200. 18 The additional confusion was that 19 the Governor, apparently it wasn't his intent, 20 could pick and choose who'd be paid and who 21 wouldn't be in the Executive Chamber. That was 22 never his intent. He last evening agreed to be 23 very specific. The only people in the Executive 3862 1 Chamber that will be paid are those that must be 2 paid according to the Fair Labor Standards Act, 3 federal legislation beyond his control. He has 4 provided a list with this to the Comptroller, 5 and I just talked to the Comptroller and that 6 list is very specific by name as the people who 7 do not qualify to be paid under the Fair Labor 8 Standards Act, and they will not be paid, by 9 name. 10 So it's very easy for the 11 Comptroller to look at the list and compare it 12 to those that would be exempt and paid. The 13 Comptroller's office is apparently satisfied 14 that this cleans it up. The 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 15 people that were mentioned last night in the 16 chamber and out of the chamber along with some 17 of the labor unions like PEF, and there was some 18 confusion about some of the CSEA people, all of 19 those people are now covered and will be paid by 20 the change in the language, and we confirmed 21 that this morning before we came in by talking 22 to the leadership at CSEA, at PEF, and they now 23 support this legislation and they are asking us 3863 1 here in the chamber to do this before 12:00 so 2 that the payroll can go forward. 3 So, Mr. President, having worked 4 through the night, I would appreciate the 5 support of my colleagues, and I thank my 6 colleagues on this side of the aisle as well as 7 this side of the aisle for their patience, for 8 their indulgence, for their support and for the 9 very constructive criticism that you made of 10 this procedure and this legislation last night, 11 and I hope that you will concur that we have 12 corrected the questionable language and that 13 this bill now should go forward so that we can 14 go on with the rest of the business of the day 15 which will probably take us through 8:00 or 9:00 16 o'clock tonight. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: I 18 have, Senator Paterson. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 20 I'm seeking a point of clarification. I wonder 21 if the Majority Leader would be so kind as to 22 yield for a few questions. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3864 1 Senator Bruno, would you yield to questions from 2 Senator Solomon -- Senator Paterson. 3 SENATOR BRUNO: Excuse me. Mr. 4 President, just give me about 30 seconds if you 5 will and I'll answer. 6 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, my 7 apologies. Senator? 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Through you, 9 Mr. President, Senator Bruno, therefore, under 10 this bill all employees of state agencies get 11 paid, is that correct? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 13 Senator Bruno. 14 SENATOR BRUNO: That is correct, 15 Mr. President. That's my understanding. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: And Mr. 17 President, if Senator Bruno will yield for 18 another question. Senator Bruno, that means all 19 commissioners will get paid. 20 SENATOR BRUNO: That is correct, 21 Mr. President. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Now, as we 23 move to the Executive Chamber, as I read this 3865 1 bill, the Governor's secretary then will 2 designate who is and is not complying with the 3 federal Fair Labor Standards Act, and then we 4 will know who gets paid in the Executive 5 Chamber; is that correct? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 7 Senator Bruno. 8 SENATOR BRUNO: Yeah, Mr. 9 President. Yes. That is quite an accurate 10 reflection but, for clarification, he doesn't 11 make judgments. He simply executes the letter 12 of the intent of the law by doing the 13 comparisons of who is disqualified under the 14 Fair Labor Standards Act so he is doing the 15 paperwork. He is not making any judgments on 16 which people get paid. That is done by the 17 letter of this appropriation. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 19 Senator Paterson. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 21 we thank Senator Bruno for that answer, but that 22 brings us right back to the question that I 23 asked last night which is who makes the 3866 1 decision? In other words, it's not who signs the 2 letter. In other words, at some point in the 3 legislation Senator Bruno just informed us that 4 there's a list. So what I want to know is, I've 5 never seen the list. The Comptroller, I 6 understand, has seen the list, but the 7 Comptroller is not voting here today. All of 8 us, as Senators in this chamber, are voting and 9 we would like to know who is on - 10 SENATOR BRUNO: There's the 11 list. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: This is the 13 list. All right. Senator Bruno, now that I 14 have the list, it appears that the Governor's 15 secretaries and support staff get paid under the 16 list; is that not correct? 17 SENATOR BRUNO: That would depend 18 on whether or not they come under the Fair Labor 19 Standards Act, federal legislation. If they do, 20 yes, they will get paid. If they don't, no, 21 they will not get paid. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 23 apparently they do conform with the regulations 3867 1 of the federal Fair Labor Standards Act and so 2 apparently they are going to get paid. 3 SENATOR BRUNO: Well, Senator, I 4 think you're making an accurate reflection of 5 the situation. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 7 through you. Senator Bruno, do you think a 8 paralegal would be subject to the federal Fair 9 Labor Standards Act? 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 11 that would depend on whether or not they are 12 presently within the framework of that law. 13 That is not a judgment that we can make on the 14 floor here, and that is not a judgment that's 15 affected by the legislation before us or by any 16 judgments that will be made on the second 17 floor. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 19 Senator Paterson. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Mr. 21 President, I'm not making a judgment; I'm 22 reading the list. I'm reading the list that was 23 just provided to me, and my information is that 3868 1 paralegals will be paid under this federal Fair 2 Labor Standards Act. 3 My next question is -- my next 4 question has not come to me yet. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: It will, I'm sure 6 it will, Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 8 Has it come to you, Senator Paterson? 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr. 10 President. As I said before, I really don't 11 mind being the puppet. It's when they let the 12 strings show. 13 Mr. President, will the 14 Governor's legislative assistants be paid or 15 would Senator Bruno know that answer? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 17 Senator Bruno. 18 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, I'm looking 19 at the list just as you are, Senator, and I can 20 only make the same judgments that you could make 21 and it's my understanding that the people on the 22 list do not come under the Fair Labor Standards 23 Act, so they will not be paid. Those that are 3869 1 not in the list come under the act and they will 2 be paid, and again, that is beyond the judgment 3 of this legislation or the secretary to the 4 Governor. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 6 that is my whole point. I think that this 7 chamber should be making a judgment right now, 8 particularly in such a highly charged atmosphere 9 where a governor at the State of the State 10 message said on January the 5th, if I'm correct, 11 and his point was that if we don't pass the 12 budget on time, "you won't get paid and neither 13 will I." He's fond of quoting himself and 14 reciting that mantra that "you won't get paid 15 and neither will I." 16 From then, if we just reflect 17 historically he went forward to say that he 18 wasn't going to pay anybody in state 19 government. Finding that that wasn't a 20 particularly good idea, he backed away from that 21 and then the next we heard, we didn't know what 22 -- who was going to get paid for a while, and 23 then we heard that it was the Governor, the 3870 1 legislators and staff that were not going to get 2 paid. Then we went through two bills last night 3 and we've now arrived on a -- at a third bill 4 today, and what the third bill is basically 5 stating is that some of the Governor's staff 6 will get paid, but some -- but none of the 7 legislative staff. 8 My problem with this whole thing, 9 and it goes really to federal law and really to 10 our founding Constitution through our state 11 Constitution, is that we -- our forefathers 12 thought about these types of issues years ago 13 and they were very clear on a separation of 14 powers between the legislative and the executive 15 branch. They did not want for either branch to 16 be put in an unfair bargaining position through 17 pressure exerted by anyone from the other 18 branch. 19 What the Governor has done is, he 20 has realized that many of his support staff who 21 are often ballyhooed and parodied in the press, 22 are actually some hard working people. They 23 stay up late. They help prepare these pieces of 3871 1 legislation such as the one we're looking at 2 right now. They are loyal, they are interested, 3 they are hard working, and yet some are 4 apparently more valuable than others because 5 none of the corresponding members of the 6 legislative staff are going to be paid, but yet 7 the executive staff is going to be paid. 8 I think this is an absolute 9 outrage, and the reason it's an outrage is 10 because if we're going to make a decision that 11 the budget not passing on time engenders in us 12 some responsibility, then we have to be 13 scrupulously fair as to who shares in that 14 responsibility, not a situation where the 15 Legislature can't make a judgment after reading 16 a bill or the secretary to the Governor will 17 make the decision or the Comptroller will 18 interpret some decision. 19 It's all extremely confusing. I 20 don't understand it. I don't think anybody here 21 understands it, and so my question is, why are 22 we voting for it? Wouldn't the simpler way to 23 do it -- wouldn't the simpler way to do it just 3872 1 be everybody gets paid except those who are in 2 the decision-making process, the Legislature, 3 Assembly members, Senators, the Lt. Governor and 4 the Governor? 5 Now, I do not understand how 6 interns who work for the Legislature who make 7 $104 a week are not getting paid when budget 8 directors and commissioners and budget analysts 9 who make 104,000 a year, at least, are getting 10 paid. The interns aren't making the decisions 11 that will end the negotiations to pass this 12 budget. The secretaries aren't making those 13 decisions. Some are going to get paid, some are 14 not going to get paid? What's the 15 discrimination? Who do you work for? Who do 16 you work for? 17 And in my opinion, it is 18 disingenuous to have any piece of legislation on 19 the floor right now that pays workers of equal 20 value in a disproportional way by paying some 21 and not paying others. 22 It's not only unfair; it really 23 leaves a lugubrious cloud over the budget 3873 1 negotiations themselves. Last night we had a 2 circumstance where union members were possibly 3 eligible not to be paid, so today we've adjusted 4 the language and we're back to non-union staff 5 members, some will get paid and some will not 6 get paid. 7 The point that's overriding this 8 entire issue that really is more important as to 9 who gets paid on April 5th and who does not, 10 involves really the fairness of the budget 11 negotiating process itself. When the budget was 12 not passed on April 1st, we are now being asked 13 to look at this process as if failure to agree 14 somehow ranks as failure to pass the budget and 15 the inability to agree is something that is 16 mutual. None of us agree, and as much as we may 17 continue to rail against each other in the media 18 and say it's the Speaker's fault or some people 19 feel it's the Governor's fault, it's really all 20 of our fault, and so if the Governor wants to 21 make good on his promise from the State of the 22 State mission -- message, then let him do that. 23 Then let the Governor not get paid; we, the 3874 1 Legislature, will not get paid, but why are we 2 taking it out on employees who don't participate 3 in the budget process? 4 And then to go beyond that as 5 we're doing in this piece of legislation and 6 making it so confusing that on three occasions 7 this Legislature cannot really figure out who is 8 the broad supervisory power that will make the 9 decision as to who is going to get paid and who 10 is not going to get paid is, in my opinion, 11 practicing what I call the politics of 12 confusion. It's seeking a goal and achieving it 13 by creating such an issue that it obfuscates any 14 understanding on an issue, and I'm opposed to 15 passing any legislation that is void for 16 vagueness as this bill is, and it isn't just 17 vague. It's real. 18 Some people are going to get paid 19 tomorrow, and some people are not and it is 20 totally outrageous to be taking individuals who 21 work with equal work and equal value and pay 22 them differently depending on what chamber they 23 work in. This is absolutely outrageous, and 3875 1 it's a disingenuous act because, if you're going 2 to say it, then why don't you just say it in the 3 bill? 4 It says something about the 5 federal Fair Labor Standards Act, and then the 6 secretary of the Governor and then a lot of 7 dicta that isn't in the bill that we're being 8 asked to understand. 9 It's unfair not only to those of 10 us who are voting on it, I think it's unfair to 11 the advocates who try to get up and explain it, 12 people who I have a great deal of respect for, 13 people who give their word around here and their 14 word is always true, and now we are being asked 15 out of some kind of loyalty, to pass a piece of 16 legislation that is inherently disloyal. 17 The inertia inherent in this 18 legislation is incomprehensible and that on 19 itself makes the legislation, in my opinion, 20 void. 21 Other than that, Mr. President, I 22 really don't know what to say. This is the 23 third time that we've had this legislation in 3876 1 the last 12 hours. It still doesn't make any 2 sense. This is the third attempt that the 3 Governor has put out a piece of legislation 4 where he could have just made it very simple; 5 and so I just assume that somewhere in this 6 favored land, a band is playing and somewhere 7 hearts are light, but not here in the Senate 8 chamber because, again, we have in a sense 9 practiced a legislative discrimination by our 10 desire to, for some reason, confuse an issue and 11 issue paychecks to some and not to others, but 12 they all worked hard and they all worked between 13 March 8th and March 22nd which was in the 14 1994-95 budget year, and it is my opinion that 15 the only honorable thing to do, the only moral 16 imperative that we should be adhering to is to 17 pay those who worked and earned their salaries. 18 The fact that the media doesn't 19 have any consideration for them, the fact that 20 they're considered to be hacks and they're 21 considered to be cronies and they're considered 22 to be political appointees may be fine, but if 23 no one else wants to support them, I support 3877 1 them. They work very hard; they earn their 2 salaries. Many of them work session; many of 3 them work seasonally, some of them working while 4 they're going to school. Some of them are 5 interns. Some of them are here to learn about 6 the legislative process. We've really taught 7 them a lesson, a lesson in futility, Mr. 8 President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 10 Senator Solomon. 11 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you, Mr. 12 President. 13 Senator Bruno yield, please? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 15 Senator Bruno, would you yield? 16 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 17 President. 18 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, in 19 your opinion, could it have been relatively easy 20 for the Governor to left out -- leave out 21 commissioners, so commissioners wouldn't have 22 been paid? 23 SENATOR BRUNO: Well, Senator, 3878 1 Mr. President, what is happening here through 2 this legislation is just the Governor following 3 through on what he had made very clear from the 4 time that he took office and that was in 5 January, and he stated at the time if we did not 6 do a budget by April 1st legis... he wouldn't 7 get paid and legislators wouldn't get paid and 8 people that are in the process would not get 9 paid. 10 So commissioners are not in the 11 Legislature. They are in the executive branch. 12 So having said that, they are not in the 13 legislative process. The legislator -- the 14 legislators and their employees are in the 15 process as is the executive and the employees in 16 the Executive Chamber, so this legislation is 17 directed specifically at those involved in 18 whatever way in the legislative process. So the 19 commissioners are in the executive branch, not 20 in the process of making laws. 21 So the Governor's following 22 through, as he had indicated he would, and 23 that's why those people are not included. 3879 1 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 2 Senator Solomon. 3 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you. 4 Mr. President, the -- if Senator 5 Galiber will yield for a question. Senator, 6 during the Finance hearings - 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 8 Excuse me. This is a little bit out of order. 9 He doesn't have the floor. 10 SENATOR SOLOMON: I have the 11 floor. I have the floor. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 13 Senator Galiber, would you yield to the 14 question? 15 SENATOR GALIBER: Gladly, Mr. 16 President. 17 SENATOR SOLOMON: During the 18 Finance hearings, don't the commissioners come 19 and defend their budgets and make requests for 20 dollars? 21 SENATOR GALIBER: That's 22 correct. 23 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you, 3880 1 Senator. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3 Senator Solomon. 4 SENATOR SOLOMON: I was just 5 curious, I thought the commissioners had 6 something to do with the formulation of the 7 budget which relates to formulation of the 8 amounts of money they're asking for which 9 relates to the amounts that the Governor puts 10 into the budget. 11 On the bill. I find it very 12 interesting that such esteemed commissioners as 13 Bernadette Castro has to receive her salary 14 where a secretary that I have working for me 15 that earns far less than Bernadette Castro, that 16 never opened sofas as a little girl, that 17 doesn't have a trust fund, is not going to 18 receive her salary. I think if the Governor 19 really wanted to hold to his promises, he'd 20 talked about shutting down state government to 21 closing state government. I think that to be 22 fair, at the very least, all commissioners and 23 political appointees should not be getting paid 3881 1 in this situation. 2 Just to say political appointees 3 executive branch, I don't believe that the 4 support staff of legislators, someone who I'm 5 making a loan to so that they can pay their rent 6 this month that works on my staff, should go 7 without their pay while political appointees, 8 many of them besides Commissioner of Parks, I'm 9 sure we have someone such as the person in 10 charge of UDC who can afford not to be paid by 11 the state, are political appointees and directly 12 involved in the political process through their 13 agencies or were in their agency requests. 14 I think what we're doing here 15 today, what the Governor is doing is for 16 something, maybe the Governor has got a little 17 bird at this time, and you know what, if we 18 don't pay these legislative employees, they will 19 bother the legislators to the degree where the 20 legislator is going to fold and agree to a 21 budget. 22 It's a ridiculous scenario and 23 it's a ridiculous concept and what it's telling 3882 1 me here today is "I want to take care of my 2 political employees, but the support staff of 3 legislators, they participate in the process. 4 My commissioners don't participate in the 5 process. My unit heads in Division of Budget 6 don't participate in the process," but the 7 secretary for Senator Solomon, Senator Bruno, 8 Senator Galiber, anyone here has more partici 9 pation in the process than a commissioner? Or 10 more participation in the process than a 11 secretary in the Governor's office? 12 There's no logic in that, and I 13 think what's being done is that we are singling 14 out legislative employees quite unfairly in this 15 bill, and I don't think it would have been that 16 difficult for the Governor's office to draft a 17 piece of legislation which would have directed 18 it at us as legislators, and I think commission 19 ers should have had it directed at them. 20 I certainly don't believe support 21 staff, frankly, in either house and even in the 22 Executive Chamber should be denied their checks, 23 but what I think is very unfair where we're 3883 1 picking out one chamber and you work in the 2 Executive Chamber you're different. You're a 3 commissioner, you're different. 4 Let's have a level playing field 5 as is often cited in this house, and I think 6 that's one of the problems we have with this 7 bill and obviously we saw that there are some 8 problems in the drafting process on the second 9 floor. 10 Thank you. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 12 Senator Nozzolio, why do you rise? 13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President, 14 will Senator Solomon yield? 15 SENATOR SOLOMON: No. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 17 Senator Solomon will not yield. 18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Is there a 19 list? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 21 Senator Leichter. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 23 my colleagues, this is such bad government. 3884 1 This is so irrational. It is so illogical; this 2 is so unproductive. I tell you what's 3 happening. We have been hoisted on our own 4 petard or maybe, to put it more accurately, 5 we've been hoisted on our own pandering. 6 What is the rationale? I've been 7 trying to go over in my mind, what is the 8 rationale that legislators and their staff or 9 the Governor and his staff should not be paid 10 because we don't have a budget by April 1st? 11 Now, let me say, if there are 12 members here who've been sunning themselves in 13 Bermuda this last month instead of working on 14 the budget, I don't think they should get paid. 15 But as I look around, I don't see anybody with a 16 tan, and I look around and I see people who I 17 know have been here, everybody working, been 18 working extremely hard. I take a look at the 19 staff, maybe -- maybe Abe Lackman and John Quirk 20 were off playing golf in California. If that 21 was the case, there was somebody that looks just 22 like them that's been here 18 hours a day 23 working trying to pass a budget. 3885 1 Why shouldn't that person get 2 paid? What is the theory that you -- if you 3 don't pass the budget by April 1st you don't get 4 paid? Is it because Governor Pataki has not 5 agreed with Assembly Speaker Silver? Therefore, 6 he shouldn't get paid? Or is it because the 7 Assembly Speaker hasn't agreed with the Majority 8 Leader? Or is it because the Majority Leader 9 doesn't see the budget the way I see it, that, 10 therefore, he shouldn't get paid? 11 We have some very serious 12 differences, philosophical, ideological, 13 political, regional, that relate to the budget. 14 We're fighting these out. You people believe we 15 have need to cut taxes. We think this is not 16 the time to cut taxes or at least that's my 17 view. You want to direct the tax cuts toward 18 the wealthy. I think that's a mistake. I don't 19 think that we should take the safety net away 20 from needy people. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe 21 you're right, maybe somewhere in between there's 22 a -- there's a rational answer, but these are 23 honest differences. Because you don't agree 3886 1 with me, you don't get paid; I don't get paid 2 because I don't agree with you, and that makes 3 absolutely no sense, and it's particularly harsh 4 when it falls on the legislative staff, and I 5 know that argument has been made very 6 effectively, and I know that you all agree 7 because I've talked to you in the cloak room and 8 I think you feel as badly as I do about the fact 9 that hard working staff members who have no 10 responsibility whatsoever for the budget are not 11 going to get paid. It really is a hardship on 12 them. It's unfair and it does nothing to move 13 the process along. 14 The real difficulty we have as we 15 know is that we have a very short window within 16 which to pass the budget. Unfortunately, our 17 Constitution provides for budgets by April 1st; 18 the Governor doesn't come up with his budget 19 proposal until February 1st, and there's a 20 30-day period. It's really a very, very short 21 time, as we know. 22 But I think we've been working 23 extremely hard this year and the idea that - 3887 1 well, it isn't enough with your heart you've got 2 to agree. Well, wait a second. Agree with 3 what? Do the people in Senator Nozzolio's 4 district say that he shouldn't get paid unless 5 he agrees with what the people in my district 6 want; or is it the other way about? I mean as 7 you examine it, you realize what nonsense this 8 is. 9 Now, this made a great applause 10 line in the Governor's State of the State. 11 Maybe it was good campaign fodder but, when you 12 come down to the practical aspects of this, you 13 realize how senseless it is and it's for that 14 reason that last night in some confusion the 15 Majority Leader had to pull back a bill and even 16 now the bill that we have, the Governor has the 17 absolute discretion to pick who he wants and who 18 he doesn't want. He submitted a list today. He 19 can change that list tomorrow. There's a 20 complete, absolute authority in the secretary to 21 the Governor to submit whatever list he wants 22 to, so even within that aspect or from that 23 perspective, there's no balance. There's no 3888 1 logic. 2 Now, if you want to say those who 3 are responsible -- well, who's responsible? 4 Leichter, what do you have to do with the 5 budget? Very little. Maybe -- maybe the bill 6 just ought to provide the Majority members of 7 the two houses don't get paid. Well, that isn't 8 fair because, with all due respect to my hard 9 working and bright colleagues, I don't know how 10 much all of you have to do with the budget. 11 Well, maybe -- maybe it just ought to be the 12 Majority Leader. Well, maybe the chairman of 13 the Finance Committee. 14 But what are we -- but what are 15 we trying to do? Is it -- is it to put a gun to 16 their head? You know, in other aspects if you 17 say to somebody "I will pay you if you do 18 certain things as a legislator," you know what 19 happened? You end up indicted. You end up in 20 jail. 21 Well, in a sense, this is what - 22 what is happening here, and let me tell you, 23 this only slows up the budget process, and I'll 3889 1 tell you why. Once you pass something like that 2 and as legislators, we can't get paid, are you 3 going to rush to pass a budget? I'll tell you, 4 if you do you're going to go back to your 5 district and you know what people are going to 6 say. Ah, you voted for that lousy budget so you 7 could get paid. And without doubt, people are 8 going to be saying that, people who don't agree 9 with the budget, and we know when this budget is 10 passed, there isn't going to be anybody in this 11 state that's going to like it. So they'll say, 12 Ah, you voted for it to get paid. So, my 13 friends, we really are going down a very 14 perilous and a very foolish path. 15 Now, I know that this pandering 16 didn't start with this governor. There was a 17 previous governor who was good at those things, 18 who first made that suggestion that we shouldn't 19 get paid, but you know one thing about Governor 20 Cuomo, he was very smart. He knew it didn't 21 work, so he would throw out the idea. He 22 threatened in February, but he wouldn't do 23 anything in April. 3890 1 This governor, unfortunately, has 2 shown that he takes his campaign rhetoric as 3 dogma and he's now trying to do something which 4 is really going to blow up in his face, which 5 doesn't make sense, and which I think under 6 mines democratic government. 7 Now, is this a principle now 8 we're going to establish in all legislation? If 9 you don't do it by a certain time, if you don't 10 do it in a certain way, you're not going to get 11 paid. That's terrible. In fact, if you take a 12 look at the Constitution, it tries to protect 13 public officials from that sort of pressure. 14 You can't decrease their salary during their 15 term of office, because precisely you don't want 16 to put that sort of pressure on them. 17 I think part of this is, I'm 18 sorry to say, is this anti-government, 19 anti-politician. Every politician is lousy. 20 Government is lousy. These people aren't doing 21 their job. Nonsense! We're working very hard 22 trying to pass a very difficult budget at a very 23 financially tough time in this state and there 3891 1 are real differences, and it takes time to work 2 out those differences and to rush to do it is 3 certainly of no benefit to the people of this 4 state. 5 It's true there may be a certain 6 cost to the people of this state in interest and 7 I think we're all aware of it, and we want to 8 pass the budget, and I know nobody wants to pass 9 a budget more than Senator Bruno. But, Senator, 10 if the issue is just this is such a -- an 11 offense against the public that you're not going 12 to get paid, then take Assemblyman -- Assembly 13 Speaker Silver's ideas, pass that budget, or are 14 you going to - 15 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 16 Excuse me, Senator. Excuse me one moment. 17 Senator Stafford, why do you rise? 18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President, 19 I stated on the floor here the other day that I 20 never interrupted a person on this floor. This 21 is the first time, but I'm sure my colleague 22 from the City will understand. We've announced 23 a Finance Committee meeting as scheduled in 332, 3892 1 at 11:00 a.m. Thank you. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: A 3 meeting of the Senate Finance Committee in Room 4 332 at 11:00 a.m. 5 Senator Leichter. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 8 May I interrupt you one more time. Senator 9 Levy, why do you rise? 10 SENATOR LEVY: Yes, Mr. 11 President. There will be an immediate meeting 12 of the Transportation Committee because one of 13 the nominees that we have has to clear 14 Transportation to go to Finance so that that 15 nominee can be taken up today. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 17 And where will that be? 18 SENATOR LEVY: In Room 123. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: In 20 Room 123, there will be an immediate meeting of 21 the Transportation Committee. 22 Senator Leichter. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 3893 1 President. 2 I just end up and implore the 3 Governor, all members of this Legislature, 4 include myself, include the Minority in this 5 house, the Minority in the other house, let's 6 stop pandering. Let's stop giving the voters a 7 sort of red meat issue. Let's not pay the 8 legislators. It's nonsense. It doesn't move 9 forward the process. It disgraces the 10 democratic ideal that we're committed to. It's 11 wrong, as we've seen. It doesn't work. We 12 shouldn't be doing this. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 14 Senator Gold. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 16 President. 17 First, I'd like to make an 18 observation, Senator Bruno. I think that this 19 is important, and I know the committee meetings 20 are important, but I mean it might be a 21 situation where you are assuming a fast roll 22 call and not a quorum call. I think that the 23 committee meetings should be put off for a 3894 1 period of time and people ought to be involved. 2 That's only my opinion. 3 Senator Paterson and Senator 4 Leichter, I think really have done very well but 5 there's a couple of little points I would like 6 to refer to. 7 First of all, Senator Bruno, I 8 think the record ought to be straightened out as 9 far as you're concerned, and no one on your side 10 wants to do it, so I'll do it. I think this 11 Governor has been very, very lucky to have a 12 Majority Leader as loyal as you and for a 13 Majority Con Conference to be as loyal as you've 14 been. As the New York News pointed out one day, 15 your members have had to cast some very, very 16 difficult votes against things they might want, 17 et cetera, and you've been towing the line. 18 And, Senator Bruno, I don't sit in on these 19 private meetings, but I know you for a long time 20 and I can not believe that you in your heart - 21 and I don't expect you to answer this because 22 you're loyal, and I respect that -- but I can't 23 believe that you in your heart would have drawn 3895 1 this bill this way if it was up to you. I can't 2 believe it. I can believe that you would have 3 said the Legislature doesn't get paid. I can't 4 believe, Senator Bruno, in your heart you would 5 have done this the way it was done, so I want 6 you to know from my point of view, I take you 7 personally off the hook, Senator Bruno, and I 8 may be wrong, but I'm entitled to my judgment. 9 I think the concept of not paying 10 the April 5th payment where we put people on a 11 lag payroll, we borrow their money and then 12 don't pay them for work done just can never be 13 justified. Another point I'd like to make, I 14 didn't like the concept of this from the 15 original print, from the "A" print and I 16 certainly am not thrilled with the "B" print, 17 but from the point of view of some people, it 18 was easier to oppose the "A" print yesterday 19 because we were told that the unions were 20 against it. 21 Now, I hear the unions would like 22 to get their money. I just want to say 23 something. CSEA and PEF are groups that should 3896 1 unquestionably be respected. They do great work 2 and the unions do great work for their people 3 but the fact is that they have filed memorandums 4 in opposition to parts of this budget and the 5 parts that they have filed in opposition to are 6 still in the budget, and I'm saying you can't 7 always have it both ways. 8 There are college presidents who 9 say one thing in their role of a college 10 president and then go to a meeting with a 11 legislator the next day or two and say something 12 different because they're with a different 13 group. We've had bankers do that. We've had 14 people all over the state and, ladies and 15 gentlemen, you can't have it both ways. You 16 just can't do that. 17 Now, one point I would like to 18 make which hasn't been raised. As far as the 19 Governor is concerned, the Governor says, "I 20 won't get paid and you won't get paid." That 21 isn't really true. It's not true unless I've 22 missed one thing. 23 There is a receptionist who works 3897 1 for Senator Bruno who has to go out and buy 2 food. Now, is the Governor going to be eating 3 at the Mansion? Are we paying for his food or 4 is he going to put himself on a moratorium and 5 buy his own food until we get a paycheck? There 6 is a secretary and there's a staff person who 7 drives to work, drives to work and pays for 8 parking and they need the money for gas for the 9 car and to pay for the parking. Is George 10 Pataki, our Governor, going to put himself on a 11 moratorium and not use the state car and, if he 12 does, pay for the gas and use his own car during 13 this period of time? 14 If he says that, I could respect 15 it. There's somebody who works for Senator 16 Bruno who rents and, for the month of April, has 17 to pay rent. I would like to know whether 18 Governor Pataki is moving out of the Mansion 19 into a hotel or into an apartment to pay rent 20 during the period of this moratorium, because 21 the truth of the matter is, if he doesn't, then 22 don't tell me he's not getting paid. He's 23 living rent-free with a car and a driver and gas 3898 1 and food, and that's a lot more than the staff 2 people who work for him and the Legislature who 3 are not getting paid. 4 I don't understand why the 5 Attorney General is not getting paid. What does 6 he have to do with the budget? I mean the 7 Attorney General took an office, he says he 8 wants to concentrate more on criminal work, 9 assumedly that's his business, but what does he 10 have to do with this? Carl McCall has nothing 11 to do with the budget process. So the answer 12 is, this is filled with irrationality. 13 I made a comment a few minutes 14 ago that Senator Paterson and Senator Leichter 15 have really done a wonderful job, and they have, 16 and I'll stop here except to say one thing in 17 closing. 18 Every one of you knows that after 19 you criticize the heck out of this bill, the 20 political thing to do is to vote yes because 21 there's 200,000 people waiting to get paid, et 22 cetera, et cetera, and if you're worried about 23 that, I suggest you do it. 3899 1 I will vote no and I'll vote no 2 for one reason, the same reason that I would 3 vote no on the original print and the "A" 4 print. It is childish. It is suggesting that 5 legislators put their own pocketbook before 6 their constituents' pocketbook. It is a form of 7 harassment of the worst kind and it is bad, bad 8 government. 9 Thank you. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 11 Senator Dollinger. 12 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I yield the 14 floor to Senator Waldon. 15 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 16 much, Senator Dollinger. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 18 Senator Waldon. 19 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 20 my colleagues, I would like to ask a few 21 questions of the learned Senator from Rensselaer 22 if he would allow me to do that, Senator Bruno. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3900 1 Senator Bruno, would you yield to a question? 2 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 3 President. 4 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Bruno, 5 have you had any conversations this date with 6 Comptroller Carl McCall? 7 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, I have, 8 Senator. 9 SENATOR WALDON: Can you tell us 10 in very -- no, don't do that. Mr. President, if 11 I may continue. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 13 Senator Waldon. 14 SENATOR WALDON: Did the 15 Comptroller in any way indicate to you that he 16 may still be empowered to issue checks despite 17 what we're doing here today? 18 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 19 I'm not clear, issue checks to whom? 20 SENATOR WALDON: Issue all checks 21 that are due come tomorrow to all the personnel 22 of the state of New York? 23 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 3901 1 President. The Comptroller indicated to me this 2 morning that he was prepared to issue checks to 3 all state employees. 4 SENATOR WALDON: If I may 5 continue, Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 7 Senator Waldon. 8 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 9 is there anything -- I mean Senator Bruno, I 10 apologize for that faux pas. Is there anything 11 in this legislation, this proposal that we're 12 considering, which takes away the money that 13 would be available to pay all state personnel? 14 SENATOR BRUNO: No, Mr. 15 President, to my knowledge, there isn't. 16 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 17 much, Mr. President, Senator Bruno. I'm not 18 finished. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 20 Senator Waldon. 21 SENATOR WALDON: On the bill. My 22 colleagues, to this point here in the debate 23 we've spoken about the mean-spiritedness and the 3902 1 confusion surrounding this issue whether we can 2 pay, whether we can not pay. 3 It is my understanding that the 4 Comptroller has the absolute authority to issue 5 the checks tomorrow to all people. Therefore, 6 the secretaries, et cetera, in each of our 7 offices will be paid. However, there may be a 8 move by my learned colleagues on the other side 9 of the aisle to stop those checks somehow, and 10 let me just say that if someone, perhaps a Steve 11 Sloan, were to do something that is contrary to 12 law, then he may be personally liable and may, 13 in fact, be criminally liable for that action. 14 I think what we're proving here 15 today is that this is an exercise in futility. 16 I'm also told that even our learned Majority 17 Leader, if he involves himself in this process 18 of stopping the checks, may be somehow 19 personally liable or criminally liable, and 20 we're talking about a lot of money, more money 21 than I have in my petty cash, and I would 22 suggest that we not do that. 23 I would now like to tell you two 3903 1 little quick stories, and I will sit. 2 When I was in the sixth grade at 3 P.S. 70 in Brooklyn, there was a great snow in 4 1948. Just before the snow, Billy Lee moved 5 from New Orleans to New York. Billy Lee was an 6 extremely quiet, freckle-faced kid who didn't 7 bother anyone, and we had a guy named Gilbert 8 Zigler who was in the CRMD class. He was two 9 years holder than us; he had been left back 10 twice. He was the bully at P.S. 70 and one day 11 leaving class from P.S. 70, Billy Pickens, my 12 dearest friend Donny Pankin, who died last year, 13 myself John Lagoff, Carl Lagoff, and others were 14 stopped by Zigler and intimidated and told that 15 he was going to whip our you know whats again, 16 and Billy Lee said, "I don't think you ought to 17 do that," and Zigler didn't know Billy Lee, and 18 so Zigler pursued his quest to whip somebody's 19 you know what. 20 With that, Billy Lee picked him 21 up and in the mound of snow that was taller than 22 I was when I was 11 years of age, Billy Lee 23 began to stuff Gilbert Zigler in the snow head 3904 1 first, and each time in his very southern drawl, 2 he said, "You had enough?" "You had enough?" And 3 finally Zigler said, "I had enough," and once we 4 realized that the local bully was nothing but a 5 coward, all of us began to kick Gilbert Sigler's 6 you know what. 7 The point I'm making is that this 8 is a bully tactic. The least of us -- and the 9 Bible says that we should not take advantage of 10 the least of us -- the least of us is being hurt 11 by this act that we're about to do if we do it, 12 and I'm so glad that there is an opportunity to 13 go around, to circumvent this act so that the 14 people will get their checks tomorrow. But I 15 think we, as a legislative body, are on thin ice 16 because, if we allow this bully tactic, what we 17 are really doing is abrogating our power as 18 legislators and we are, in effect, creating a 19 dictatorship. Dictatorships are not only at the 20 national level. Dictatorships can be at the 21 state level and we are giving away our power and 22 our authority to the second floor. 23 I don't want to be a part of a 3905 1 dictatorship. I know that power as Lord Atkins 2 said, Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts 3 absolutely. I don't think that's what we want 4 to do. I thought we -- I think that we wish to 5 exercise our power, our authority, our 6 obligation and our mandate on behalf of the 7 people that we serve. 8 So I say let us do what we have 9 to do. Let us pay the secretaries. Let us pay 10 the elevator operators. Let us pay those 355-B 11 persons who cannot take care of themselves but 12 if we do it, and let us stop this gradual move 13 towards a dictatorship which is the wrong thing 14 to do in this state, and let's stop the bully 15 efforts from the second floor. 16 Thank you, Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 18 Senator Dollinger. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 20 Mr. President. 21 Mr. President, I rise against 22 this -- this whole concept. I think Senator 23 Waldon, Senator Gold, Senator Paterson, Senator 3906 1 Leichter have all expressed many of the views 2 that I share. 3 I have two other issues, one that 4 I want to follow up from Senator Waldon, but the 5 first one is that perhaps if the Majority Leader 6 would just yield to one question if he would. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 8 Senator Bruno, would you yield to a question? 9 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 10 President. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 12 President, through you, is it the intention of 13 this legislation that the federal Fair Labor 14 Standard Act guidelines and rules and regulation 15 would apply to all the employees of the 16 executive branch that the Governor has to 17 indicate one way or the other will be paid? And 18 that's the standard he's using; isn't that 19 correct? 20 SENATOR BRUNO: That's my 21 understanding, Senator. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Mr. 23 President. 3907 1 SENATOR BRUNO: The Executive 2 Chamber, not the executive branch. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Correct. 4 Well, in the -- well, nobody else in the 5 executive branch is going to lose their pay. 6 SENATOR BRUNO: That's my 7 understanding, Mr. President. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Mr. 9 President, on the bill. 10 I'd call everybody's attention to 11 a little case called the Matter of the State of 12 New York Coalition of Public Employers against 13 the New York State Department of Labor, and what 14 it says is that you cannot -- it's 15 unconstitutional to incorporate federal rules 16 and regulations into a state statute because it 17 violates section 8 of Article IV of the New York 18 State Constitution which provides that no rule 19 or regulation made by any state department or 20 officer shall be effective until it is filed in 21 the office of the Department of State. 22 So here we are creating a whole 23 series of rules and regulations which are going 3908 1 to determine who gets paid in the executive 2 branch, and we're using an incorporation 3 principle that violates our own Constitution. 4 Well, what the heck? Why not violate the 5 Constitution? We seem to have done everything 6 else this week. 7 It also seems to me, Mr. 8 President, that there's one thing that strikes 9 me as extremely different about this debate 10 today versus this debate a year ago. What would 11 have happened a year ago if the second floor had 12 said, "I want to exercise the power to decide 13 who gets paid in my department, but I don't want 14 any legislative leader from either the Senate or 15 the Assembly to decide who gets paid in their 16 house." 17 Well, I dare say, I remember the 18 first year I was here I got into a little 19 argument with Senator Marino who walked in and 20 talked about the tradition of this house, the 21 importance of this house, the importance that 22 this house be respected, the important tradition 23 of the Senate which we have all upheld for more 3909 1 than 200 years, and we were talking at that time 2 about the confirmation and the election of a 3 Comptroller in this state, and I was lectured by 4 Senator Marino about the prerogatives of this 5 house and the importance of recognizing the 6 power of this house. 7 Well, it seems to me, Mr. 8 Majority Leader, with all due respect, we are 9 now giving away -- giving away the power to 10 control who gets paid in this house. The second 11 floor is going to decide who gets paid in the 12 executive branch, the executive office, I should 13 say, and you don't have the power to make that 14 same decision here. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 16 would the Senator yield to a question? 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'd be glad 18 to, Mr. President, if it clarifies the 19 position. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 21 Senator Dollinger, would you yield to a 22 question? 23 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you, 3910 1 Senator. I'd appreciate if you'd stay with the 2 facts. I understand political rhetoric; I 3 understand posturing; I understand pandering to 4 the public, I understand all of those things, 5 Senator, but stay with the facts. I stated very 6 clearly and the legislation states very clearly 7 that the Executive Chamber employees that will 8 be paid are paid only because they qualify to be 9 paid under the national -- the federal Fair 10 Labor Standards Act. We, in the Legislature, do 11 not have any employees, none that would qualify 12 in that regard, so your comments are 13 inappropriate, inaccurate, and I'd appreciate 14 your staying with the truth. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, Mr. 16 President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 18 Senator Dollinger. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: With all due 20 respect to the Majority Leader, what bothers me 21 is that you've allowed the Governor to say, 22 "I've got fair labor standards act employees. 23 I've got to pay them. Therefore, I'm going to 3911 1 pay them," instead of saying, Gee, you know, we 2 have employees who have the same needs as those 3 who are covered by the Fair Labor Standard Act 4 in the executive office. They have the same 5 need for a pay check as the employees on the 6 second floor. They have the same kinds of 7 mortgages as the people who work on the second 8 floor. They have the same kind of need for food 9 as the people on the second floor and yet this 10 body today is going to let the second floor pay 11 for certain of its employees, while we can't pay 12 for ours. 13 Now, I understand rhetoric but it 14 seems to me we give away the power of this 15 house; we give away the power of this Senate and 16 I dare say that a year ago, had this Senate 17 Majority negotiated with Mario Cuomo about this, 18 there wouldn't be a member on that side of the 19 aisle who would have tolerated for a second 20 Mario Cuomo deciding who gets paid on the second 21 floor, while no one on the third floor can get 22 paid. 23 It's inconceivable to me that 3912 1 this Majority would have allowed that, but yet 2 because this Governor is a Republican it's now 3 going to be allowed. I just don't understand 4 how that inconsistency can be so palpable and 5 yet not drive the Majority of this house to cut 6 a different deal with the Governor. 7 Last thing, Mr. President, I have 8 an amendment before the house which I believe 9 has been served up to the desk. I'd ask that it 10 be brought before the house, that we waive its 11 reading and that I be permitted a brief 12 opportunity to explain it. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 14 The amendment is at the desk and the reading of 15 the amendment is waived. You wish to make an 16 explanation? 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I do, Mr. 18 President. I'll be brief. 19 This amendment, Mr. President, 20 does what I think the Governor believes the 21 people of this state want. This amendment says 22 very, very simple, we have 211 people that work 23 on the third floor. Those 211 people all have 3913 1 some say in the budget, as Senator Leichter 2 said. We may not have a lot of voice in that 3 budget, but we have a voice in that budget. We 4 have a constitutional responsibility to pass a 5 budget on time. That constitutional responsi 6 bility does not extend to our staff. They 7 weren't elected. They weren't given the power 8 by the people to create a budget. We were given 9 that power, 211 people, and what this amendment 10 says that those 211 people shouldn't be paid 11 because the constitutional deadline hasn't been 12 met. 13 But what it also says is that in 14 the Legislature, the people who work for us, who 15 have the same needs as the people on the second 16 floor, the same mortgages, the same family 17 obligations, the same obligations to their 18 children to pay tuition, to pay for their books, 19 to provide their shelter, their heat and 20 everything else, that they will be paid just as 21 on the second floor the Governor can decide. 22 This bill says that the 23 Legislature, legislators, the responsibility, 3914 1 the constitutional obligation rests with us, not 2 with them. Let's get over this tactic of 3 bullying, as Senator Waldon expressed it. Let's 4 get beyond that. Let's deal with ourselves in a 5 way that may be politically popular but let's 6 not punish the people that work for us. 7 This bill will do that. It will 8 require that no elected official that works on 9 the third floor would be paid. No elected 10 official that works on the second floor would be 11 paid. That's the safe way to do it. That's the 12 fair way to do it. That meets the goal that the 13 Governor wants and ascribes the punishment to 14 fit the criminal, the punishment that is the 15 loss of pay will fit those of us who haven't 16 fulfilled our constitutional obligation. 17 I would recommend to everyone in 18 this chamber that they seriously consider this 19 amendment. Let's pay the people who work for 20 us. We can take our own medicine. 21 I'd move the amendment, Mr. 22 President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3915 1 The question is on the amendment. All those in 2 favor of the amendment signify by saying aye. 3 (Response of "Aye.") 4 Opposed nay. 5 (Response of "Nay." ) 6 The amendment fails. 7 Senator Paterson, on the bill. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 9 I think finally, a ray of light has shown in 10 this chamber. Senator Waldon, I think, his 11 remarks were very instructive, and I think we 12 should listen to what he said. 13 He said that the Comptroller, and 14 this is in his questioning, has the appropria 15 tion to pay the legislative staff. There's 16 nothing in this legislation that takes the 17 finances away from the Comptroller, and so with 18 the Comptroller having the authority and the 19 money, the Comptroller will pay the legislative 20 staff. 21 I cannot explain the confusion 22 but I can understand what Senator Waldon said. 23 I think that is most instructive. I think we 3916 1 all need to listen to it. Therefore, it's my 2 understanding that the legislative staff, the 3 Executive Chamber, anyone else will get paid and 4 that's only appropriate. They worked and they 5 got paid. It's real simple after all of this 6 complicated diatribe, they worked and they got 7 paid. 8 In addition to that, this 9 particular paycheck for the calendar week March 10 8th through the second week ending March 22nd, 11 so this goes back to 1994-1995 and so there's 12 ethics, there's reason, there's morality and 13 finally there's sanity once we went through that 14 question that Senator Waldon raised, and the 15 very gracious response by the Majority Leader. 16 The Majority Leader feels that 17 we're all working a little hard on this issue, 18 but I guess that's how we could pass the 19 budget. We work hard, we struggle and 20 eventually we come to an understanding. I think 21 they call that the Socratic method, and through 22 that method, we've reached an understanding here 23 today, and that is that the Comptroller has the 3917 1 financial appropriation. He has the resources 2 to pay the staff. He has indicated that he will 3 pay the staff, and let me say that all of you 4 deserve it, and you will be paid. If you are 5 not, you go back and insist that you get paid 6 and if you aren't paid, you tell them that I 7 said so. 8 Thank you, Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 10 The Secretary will read the last section. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Slow roll 12 call, Mr. President. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Slow roll 16 call. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 18 Slow roll call. Are there five members present 19 that desire a slow roll call? I see four. Call 20 the roll. Please call - 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 22 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, I'd like to 23 be - 3918 1 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 2 Senator Abate to explain her vote. 3 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. I vote 4 reluctantly yes because it's an opportunity to 5 lessen the pain to workers throughout the state, 6 but this bill to me represents stupidity at its 7 worst and bribery at its best. It weakens the 8 notions of good government. 9 Who is responsible and who should 10 be accountable are the elected officials, all 11 that's in this room, not our secretaries, 12 receptionists, people who work in our district 13 office who have nothing to do with passing a 14 budget. 15 I am disappointed in this 16 Governor. He should be providing the kind of 17 leadership that's needed to bring about a 18 budget, to bring about compromise leadership 19 that brings both parties together for a fruitful 20 end. What we see here again, I hate to use the 21 word stupidity, something that's counterprod 22 uctive. Again this is another day that every 23 one in this chamber, whether you're Republican 3919 1 or Democratic, should feel regret at the notion 2 of having to pass this bill so that we lessen 3 the pain for many workers. 4 Again, why are we here? Why can't 5 we take the high road? Why can't we be 6 efficient, effective and do something that makes 7 sense? Nothing in this bill is common sense. We 8 are better than this bill. 9 Thank you. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 11 Senator Abate, how do you vote? 12 SENATOR ABATE: Reluctantly yes. 13 I guess that's yes. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 15 Senator Abate votes yes. Continue the roll. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush. 17 SENATOR BABBUSH: Yes. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno. 19 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor. 21 (There was no response. ) 22 Senator Cook. 23 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 3920 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2 DeFrancisco. 3 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo. 5 SENATOR DiCARLO: Aye. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 Dollinger. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 9 President, to explain my vote. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 11 Senator Dollinger to explain his vote. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 13 President, I'm disappointed that the 14 20-year-long effort by this house to maintain 15 the balance of power between the Legislature and 16 the executive branch seems to be disappearing 17 with this vote, that what we are doing is 18 enabling the executive branch to do something 19 that the Legislature will not be permitted to do 20 for its own employees. 21 I can't find the rationale why 22 100,000 employees in the state work force will 23 get paid and the people that work for me 3921 1 including my $7800 a year secretary will not. I 2 believe we are taking a step backward in the 3 balance of power. I believe we are sacrificing 4 it to the second floor. If there were a way I 5 could vote against this bill, believe me, I 6 would. I will not, however, punish the 200,000 7 people who are working today for this state by 8 voting against this bill, but mark my words this 9 is the wrong direction for this body to take and 10 we are making a constitutional mistake, a 11 legislative mistake, and a public policy 12 mistake. 13 I would still vote aye. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 15 Continue the roll. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 17 President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 19 Senator Paterson, why do you rise? 20 SENATOR PATERSON: I wasn't sure 21 if I was hearing -- I wasn't sure if I was 22 hearing bells ringing. Now I'm not sure why I'm 23 hearing them. 3922 1 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 2 Continue the roll. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 4 (There was no response. ) 5 Senator Farley. 6 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Galiber. 8 (There was no response. ) 9 Senator Gold. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, may 11 I briefly explain my vote. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 13 Senator Gold to explain his vote. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Dollinger, 15 I understand that this is the wrong way to go, 16 but reluctantly many people are voting for it. 17 I don't believe in that. I believe that if this 18 Senate were running the Russian government in 19 the 1800s we'd all be speaking French today 20 because they wouldn't have the guts to do what 21 they did and go out there and meet the enemy and 22 burn fields if you have to. 23 The way that you get 200,000 3923 1 people paid is by doing the right thing, the 2 right thinking working for a budget. We've all 3 been working for a budget, but you don't say 4 that a piece of legislation is philosophically 5 wrong, philosophically offensive, and then vote 6 for it. 7 But I'll make one last deal. If 8 the Governor doesn't get paid, then, this bill 9 is O.K., but the bill's a fraud because he does 10 get paid because when I get paid and my staff 11 gets paid, we use that money for housing, for 12 food and for other things, and as long as the 13 Governor is getting his housing free, he's 14 getting his food free, he's getting his car 15 free, he's getting his gas free, he's being 16 paid. So he doesn't have some money right now 17 to send to the savings banks and to do whatever 18 he does with his money, it's not for me to say. 19 But if you had a bill that put every state 20 worker in the same situation as the Governor, 21 that's O.K. That's O.K. It's a fraud. It's 22 wrong, and we ought to have the guts to say it's 23 wrong. 3924 1 I vote no. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3 Continue the roll. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator 5 Gonzalez. 6 (There was no response. ) 7 Senator Goodman. 8 (There was no response. ) 9 Senator Hannon. 10 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock. 12 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator 14 Hoffmann. 15 (There was no response. ) 16 Senator Holland. 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson. 19 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Jones. 21 SENATOR JONES: Explain my vote. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 23 Senator Jones to explain her vote. 3925 1 SENATOR JONES: I listened to 2 everything my colleague just said, and I agree 3 with him and I'm ashamed to be standing up here 4 and having in any way to support this bill, but 5 I -- I can't support it without offering a few 6 things. 7 It's very interesting to me that 8 I offered a bill the last two years to not pay 9 legislators if the budget wasn't passed. I 10 thought that was a fine idea. Funny, I didn't 11 get anybody else that wanted to go along with me 12 or sign onto my bill or support it in the last 13 two years. So it's very interesting to me that 14 now this year we're going to take the stand. 15 Well, I firmly believe that we 16 should not get paid. We made this choice to go 17 through an election and to do whatever we did to 18 get here, and I'm positive many of us are 19 sitting here today saying "why," but 20 nevertheless we did, so we deserve not to be 21 paid. 22 But I'm sorry, I can't accept 23 this story about the political hacks. When I 3926 1 was elected to this office, I got over 200 2 applications to work for me, none of whom I of 3 heard of. They weren't political people. They 4 were college graduates who were looking for a 5 job, and that's who's working for me today, 6 people who were looking for a job. And let me 7 tell you something, I was one of those people 8 all my life that supported a family of four and 9 if that paycheck didn't come on Friday, it was a 10 serious problem, and I have people working for 11 me that it is today, and I'm ashamed that we're 12 standing here saying that these people are going 13 to be punished for whoever's inefficiency who is 14 responsible for this, this year, last year and I 15 understand the last 17 years; so I can't stand 16 still and let thousands of others go without 17 money, so I'll support this, but I think 18 everybody ought to be ashamed that we are not 19 saying, Don't pay us, but for heaven's sake, pay 20 the person who has to pay their rent and didn't 21 choose to work run for election and be a public 22 official. 23 I'll vote yes. 3927 1 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 2 Senator Jones yes. Please continue the roll. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger. 4 SENATOR KRUGER: Yes. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 6 SENATOR KUHL: Aye. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack. 8 SENATOR LACK: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin. 10 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle. 12 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell. 14 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator 16 Leichter. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 18 President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 20 Senator Leichter to explain his vote. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: To explain my 22 vote. There was an important debate in the 23 House of Representatives last week and a very 3928 1 similar measure and a very conservative 2 Republican, the chairman of the Judiciary 3 Committee, Congressman Henry Hyde, got up and 4 made a great speech and one of the things he 5 said, "I don't want to be part of dumbing down 6 democracy," and that's what we're doing here 7 now. 8 It's the cheap, it's these 9 mechanical, it's the simplistic notion whether 10 it's term limits or don't pay legislators if 11 they don't pass a particular bill or a budget in 12 time, all you're doing is eroding democracy. My 13 good friend and colleague, Mary Ellen Jones, 14 talked about inefficiencies. You know what the 15 synonym for in efficiencies are? It's 16 democracy. 17 We've been engaged in a real 18 tough political battle here representing 19 different viewpoints and how this budget ought 20 to be put together, but we have worked, we've 21 worked hard. The notion and the idea that we 22 are not going to be paid, but even worse that 23 the staff is not going to be paid, that they're 3929 1 being held hostage, I think it's a disgrace. I 2 think probably Senator Gold is doing the right 3 thing, but I cannot, I cannot vote to deny 4 perfectly innocent state workers some 200,000 of 5 them, the ability to be paid since the Governor 6 has said that he's not going to sign a bill 7 which would only -- which would provide that 8 only legislators and the Governor and statewide 9 officials not get paid, which if you got to 10 throw some red meat to the voters after you've 11 riled them up with all these speeches, O.K., do 12 it that way, but since the only way that you're 13 going to get these state employees paid is to 14 vote for or pass a bill like this, I'm going to 15 vote for it, but I really feel that I have been 16 part of a dumbing down of democracy. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 18 Senator Leichter, how do you vote? 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: After this, I 20 don't know myself. No, I -- is it how I'd like 21 to vote or how I'm going to vote? I'm sorry, Mr. 22 President. I vote in the affirmative. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3930 1 Continue the roll. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy. 3 SENATOR LEVY: Aye. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous. 5 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese. 7 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator 9 Marcellino. 10 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 12 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator 14 Markowitz. 15 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Mr. 16 President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 18 Senator Markowitz to explain his vote. 19 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: If -- I think 20 if the truth be told, state workers will know 21 that if so many of them didn't live in Senator 22 Bruno's district or Senator Farley, the chances 23 are the Republican Majority would cut them off 3931 1 just like they're cutting off our state -- our 2 legislative workers. Not a question about that 3 in my mind, not a question about it. So I know 4 that when push comes to shove and the pressure 5 is on, even conservative legislators in the 6 Republican Party will respond to votes. That's 7 for sure. 8 That's refreshing in a way, but 9 the truth is that I believe that the great 10 majority of Republican legislators here in this 11 chamber know that what we're doing is wrong once 12 you've been convinced to walk lockstep with your 13 Governor so that you appear to be on the same 14 team with your Governor, but I think it's 15 important that as legislators, there were times 16 when we Democrats on this side disagree with our 17 Governor and did not always vote with Governor 18 Cuomo or Governor Carey, and that's true. There 19 were times when this conference did not step 20 together with our Democratic Governor, and there 21 are times when I think it's important in order 22 to mature Governor Pataki, that you also ought 23 not step with him when he's wrong, and this is 3932 1 wrong. 2 Now, Senator Spano, I read in the 3 paper and heard on the radio that he'll be 4 cooking for his staff. I hope he has a lot of 5 room for a lot of other staff members here, many 6 of whom legislators here don't know how to cook, 7 and so to penalize, we're ready, Senator Spano, 8 we're ready, Senator Spano. I don't know how 9 you cook, whether you're good or not, but since 10 you're treating, we'll join you. 11 The bottom line is that to take 12 it out on our staffs you know, every one of you 13 know it's wrong. You know it's wrong, and you 14 haven't got the chutzpah, you haven't got 15 whatever it is to get up and say, "I'm not 16 accepting this." Shame, shame, shame! I have no 17 choice but to vote yes on this because the state 18 workers, because of state workers, because of 19 state workers. I don't want it on my 20 conscience, but what you're doing, what you're 21 forcing us to do for yourselves and for us is 22 wrong. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3933 1 Senator, how do you vote? 2 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 4 Senator Bruno. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: How did the 6 Senator vote? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: He 8 voted yes. 9 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: For the state 10 workers. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: Oh, thank you. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz. 13 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez. 15 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Montgomery. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 19 Senator Montgomery to explain her vote. 20 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr. 21 President, to explain my vote briefly. 22 I've been a member of a union and 23 I've supported union workers, employees, across 3934 1 the state and in the city of New York, and so I 2 really have a commitment to the whole notion of 3 organized labor. I believe in it, and I support 4 it. However, there was a point in time in this 5 nation, when if there were a problem with a 6 small group of employees, nothing would 7 function, because there was a kind of cohesive 8 ness, a kind of commitment to unity and strength 9 of the total that the unions projected that they 10 represented, and that they did. 11 And so I feel really, I feel very 12 mixed feelings, I want to support the fact that 13 any person who is a member of any union who is 14 working for the state gets paid but at the same 15 time I am ashamed of the fact that we did not 16 have the same kind of unity and strength that 17 protects all of the workers, and I am going to 18 vote no, not because I am not supportive of 19 organized labor, not because I am not supportive 20 of the unions that work for the state, but 21 because what I am is my staff. My staff works 22 sometimes 24 hours. If we have to go 24 hours, 23 we go 24 hours. 3935 1 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 2 Excuse me, Senator, could I interrupt? 3 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I vote no. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 5 Excuse me. Senator Montgomery votes no. Please 6 continue the roll. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula. 8 SENATOR NANULA: Explain my 9 vote. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 11 Senator Nanula to explain his vote. 12 SENATOR NANULA: Senator Jones in 13 her comments in her explanation indicated she 14 was a supporter of the union workers but you 15 supported no pay for legislators for late 16 budgets. Well, Senator, you were equivocal 17 about that in your vote. As a matter of fact, 18 as one Senator last year, I not only introduced 19 legislation but beyond that gave back my pay, 20 $7900 of net pay, as a means of standing up in 21 regards to the legislation to not pay 22 legislators. It's my opinion that certainly if 23 we can't get a budget done on time, we should 3936 1 suspend our pay. 2 What I also wanted to comment on 3 though, is my really -- my severe concern for 4 lack of a better expression, over the concept 5 behind not paying staff. I am really confused. 6 I asked Senator Stafford in the Finance 7 Committee meeting yesterday, what is the 8 purpose, what's the rationale? I certainly 9 wasn't satisfied with his answer. I can 10 understand a logical rationale. I can 11 understand not paying legislators but not paying 12 staff? The last time I looked I was the person 13 casting a vote, not a staff member, not my 14 secretary in my district office who makes 15 $18,000 a year and who is a single mother and 16 who lives paycheck to paycheck. I don't recall 17 her sitting in this chamber voting on 18 legislation. 19 I think it's unfair. I don't 20 think there's a basis of logic and if there's no 21 basis of logic, in my opinion, there must be 22 another basis, and I don't think we should bring 23 politics into this chamber, and I don't think we 3937 1 should allow politics to affect people who are 2 working hard for the betterment of this state. 3 But for other reasons that I've 4 discussed, I vote yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 6 Continue the roll, please. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Nozzolio. 9 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. 10 President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 12 Senator Nozzolio to explain his vote. 13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 14 President, my colleagues. 15 This is not a question of pay. 16 This is a question of budget. Senator Waldon, 17 Senator Dollinger, sanctimonious quotations of 18 objections to violations of obscure case law or 19 other regulatory matters. Look at the state 20 Constitution, ladies and gentlemen. It says 21 April 1st there is to be a budget. This is not 22 April 1st. It's not April 2nd. It's not April 23 3rd. It's April 4th, and we have no budget. 3938 1 Read the Speaker's lips, No New Budget. 2 The Governor agreed to a budget. 3 The Senate passed a budget. The Assembly has 4 done nothing. Unlike Governor Cuomo who we had 5 to sue to bring the budget bills to the 6 Legislature on time, Governor Pataki obeyed the 7 law and by February 1st submitted the budget 8 with the budget bills. He urged us all in his 9 State of the State address to pass the budget on 10 time. Four months, three months ago today on 11 January 4th, you were all in the chamber, you 12 all heard the Governor. He said we need to pass 13 the budget on time. 14 Ladies and gentlemen, save the 15 sanctimonious tongue lashing not for this bill 16 but for the fact we have no budget. Take your 17 energies, walk down the hall, tell the Assembly 18 to pass a budget. You passed a budget. We 19 passed a budget, the Assembly refuses to pass a 20 budget. 21 That's what this issue is about. 22 It's not about pay. It's about complying with 23 the state Constitution. It's about doing our 3939 1 job. It's about passing the budget on April 1st 2 on time. 3 Mr. President, I vote aye. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 5 Please continue the roll. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 8 Senator Onorato to explain his vote. 9 SENATOR ONORATO: Mr. President, 10 to explain my vote. 11 I've heard all of the arguments 12 here about why what we're doing here is wrong 13 and I'm a firm believer as a former secretary 14 treasurer of the bricklayers' union, I fight for 15 the rights of all people, whether we're union or 16 non-union, and our country has been formed on 17 the basis that you convict only the guilty. You 18 never, never want to harm the innocent and, in 19 this particular case, the three amendments that 20 were presented were articles of fairness to 21 address only the guilty, and I find that my 22 staff are not guilty of any process of this 23 budget. 3940 1 I, therefore, vote no because 2 they are being deprived of their pay and they 3 are not guilty of that act. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 5 Senator Onorato votes no. Please continue the 6 roll. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Oppenheimer. 9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Well, I am 10 going to vote yes. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 12 Senator Oppenheimer to explain her vote. 13 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Oh, thank 14 you, Mr. President. 15 I am going to vote yes, but I 16 can't decide if I'm very bright or very stupid 17 because I can not understand why we are doing 18 this. We are the people that have not passed 19 the budget; we are the ones that should forego 20 our salaries. I do not understand what my 21 secretary in the district office who knows 22 nothing about or very little about what I'm 23 doing up here because she's dealing with 3941 1 constituent problems, what she has to do with 2 the casting of my vote. 3 I would like to respond just 4 briefly to what Senator Nozzolio said. He's 5 sounding sanctimonious now because he's saying 6 we're sounding sanctimonious. The fact is I 7 think there's a rewriting of history here 8 because for ten years at least since I've been 9 up here, the fact is the Majority in this house 10 did hold up the Democratic Governor's budget and 11 they passed as late as two months, even more, 12 two and a half months late, so I think this is 13 the opposition simply trying to persuade and 14 find some middle ground here and, as you might 15 have been wrong in the last ten years and 16 perhaps you could say we are wrong today, but we 17 are trying our hardest with this Pataki budget 18 which, in my opinion, is a very ill-conceived 19 budget that has created enormous division and 20 dislocation amongst the citizens of our state as 21 well as amongst us. 22 There are huge philosophic 23 differences with this budget and unless we all 3942 1 sit down and try and find some middle ground, we 2 are never going to have a budget. 3 But I am forced to vote yes even 4 though I feel this is a very, very unfortunate 5 business we're at. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 7 Continue the roll, please. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan. 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator 11 Paterson. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Explain my 13 vote. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 15 Senator Paterson to explain his vote. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 17 I'd like to give kudos to Senator Montgomery and 18 Senator Gold who actually voted against this 19 piece of legislation and to all of my Democratic 20 colleagues who have gotten up and raised some 21 important issues. However, as important as 22 these issues are, let's just remember that we're 23 really talking in a sense of symbolism because 3943 1 we're talking about what was attempted but what 2 was not achieved. 3 To be specific, the Comptroller 4 of the state of New York says that he has the 5 appropriations to pay the legislative staff and 6 he will pay the legislative staff since that 7 comes under his authority. Any attempt to deny 8 the Comptroller that authority and to deny 9 legislative staff their pay checks tomorrow will 10 incur personal and civil liability on the part 11 of anybody who would try to thwart that actual 12 process, so let's just make that point very 13 clear. There may have been an attempt not to 14 pay people, but it wasn't right. It was out of 15 line, and, at this point any further attempt 16 would be illegal and those who want to go 17 forward if they choose to will incur whatever 18 liability comes to them because of taking that 19 -- that step. 20 So the staff will be paid. 21 Otherwise this legislation allows for all 22 employees of state agencies to be paid. So just 23 to summarize, this legislation is an 3944 1 appropriation to allow state agencies to be paid 2 and where the legislative staff is concerned, 3 the Comptroller has the authority and will 4 exercise the authority because we have given the 5 Comptroller the appropriation to pay the staff 6 on April the 5th as scheduled. That is really 7 the final determination and, therefore, I will 8 vote for the bill. 9 Now, on the attempt and what it 10 symbolizes and what was attempted here, it's 11 horrible. It's outrageous, but we've been over 12 that. Basically we're not going to hold anybody 13 here who wants to vote for this bill and allow 14 for 200,000 people to be paid, responsible for 15 the fact that some people are irresponsible. 16 Again, in summation, this bill 17 allows for the payment of all state agency 18 employees. Where the legislative staff is 19 concerned, the Comptroller will exercise his 20 authority with the appropriation that we gave 21 him and will pay the legislative staff. As a 22 matter of fact, Mr. President, I think we can 23 discontinue the roll call and go on to something 3945 1 else, because this matter is now settled. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3 How do you vote, Senator Paterson? 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, I vote for 5 the bill, Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 7 Please continue the roll. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present. 9 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 11 SENATOR RATH: Aye. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 13 SENATOR SALAND: Aye. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator 15 Santiago. 16 SENATOR SANTIAGO: Yes. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears. 18 SENATOR SEARS: Aye. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward. 20 SENATOR SEWARD: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 3946 1 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 2 Senator Smith to explain her vote. 3 SENATOR SMITH: Mr. President, I 4 actually stand to pay tribute to my staff who 5 will not be getting paid because they have the 6 backbone to tell me that I should vote for this 7 bill because of the state workers that are 8 involved, because they did not want to see them 9 in the same predicament that they will be in, 10 unable to buy gasoline, unable to buy food, 11 unable to pay for the day care for their 12 children. 13 It's a sad day for we are forced 14 to take one worker and pit them against another 15 and I will reluctantly vote yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 17 Senator Smith votes yes. Please continue the 18 roll. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Solomon. 20 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you, Mr. 21 President, to explain my vote. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 23 Senator Solomon to explain his vote. 3947 1 SENATOR SOLOMON: As I said 2 earlier, I think it's inherently unfair not to 3 pay the legislative employees in view of the 4 fact that we're paying high paid commissioners, 5 assistant commissioners and a lot of other 6 political appointees. However, I don't believe 7 that you vote against a piece of legislation 8 which could end up resulting in even greater 9 harm to a larger percent and, in effect, a large 10 part of the state work force, because I can tell 11 you now, many of the legislative employees here 12 in Albany, because of the coverage, the 13 landlords, maybe some of the banks will 14 understand the plight they're going to be in. 15 Unfortunately, in New York City, this is not 16 getting the same amount of coverage as it is 17 here in Albany, and those people are not going 18 to be fortunate enough to understand when the 19 employee says, "I didn't get paid but I'm going 20 to get paid." 21 And just as the same situation I 22 would not want to see that happen to all the 23 state workers, tens of thousands of state 3948 1 workers downstate trying to deal with their 2 landlord, with their bank, et cetera, tell them, 3 "Well, I'm going to get paid but I'm not 4 getting paid until this budget is passed." 5 So I'm going to vote yes for this 6 bill only under the theory that we will do less 7 harm to a larger number of people, but I just 8 hope that a lot of my colleagues are generous 9 enough also to offer to make loans to those 10 employees that might need them at no interest 11 because that's basically what's happening. 12 We're putting some people really 13 with their backs against their wall, whether it 14 be single mothers who have to pay for day care, 15 or people that have to pay for their food bills 16 or that have got a kid in college. So I'm going 17 to vote for this bill, but I hope that there's 18 enough sympathy on the part of the employees 19 here to come up with some method or mechanism to 20 help their individual staff members and see how 21 generous they are to them in a time of need. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 23 Senator Solomon, how do you vote? 3949 1 SENATOR SOLOMON: In the 2 affirmative. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 4 Please continue the roll. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 6 SENATOR SPANO: Aye. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Stachowski. 9 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explain my 10 vote. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 12 Senator Stachowski to explain his vote. 13 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: I don't want 14 to see the state workers not get paid and, for 15 that reason, I'm going to vote for this, but I 16 got to comment on Senator Nozzolio's remarks. 17 As long as I've been here, it's always seemed to 18 me that to pass a budget, you have to bring all 19 three parties to the table, come out with an 20 agreement and pass it, and just because one 21 party won't agree to your system, you can't turn 22 around and say, well, that party is responsible 23 for us not passing the budget when, in fact, 3950 1 it's the Governor's job. Regardless of who the 2 Governor is, whether he's a Democrat or a 3 Republican, he's supposed to lead the state. 4 He's supposed to find a way to bring those 5 parties together, to come out with a document 6 that everyone can vote for or against, but will 7 be on the floor in both houses, the same 8 document, and then a budget will be passed. 9 Anything less means the Governor 10 is a failure on this particular issue. The 11 Governor has failed to get a budget passed in 12 spite of his promises, and now he sends up a pay 13 bill that, if you're -- like in my case, I'm the 14 ranking member of the Labor Committee, I can't 15 vote against a bill that pays the state workers, 16 but he sends up a bill that says I'm going to 17 pay all the workers that work in the Executive 18 Chamber, but any secretary that happens to have 19 the misfortune of working for the Legislature, 20 no matter how pressed she'll become, no matter 21 if she's going to lose her car, lose her 22 apartment, whatever happens to that family, 23 well, that's too bad because the Assembly didn't 3951 1 pass the budget. Something's wrong with that 2 message. 3 I'm sorry that the Governor is 4 not being fair, I'm sorry that the Governor 5 couldn't get a budget passed, that he couldn't 6 bring the parties together, that part way 7 through the last week of coming to a budget 8 deadline he decided to go ahead with one-house 9 bills and say, "I'm in agreement with the 10 Senate," when he knew darned well that it wasn't 11 a budget, it wasn't real, and we wasted a week 12 where we should have been still trying to 13 negotiate because that's the charge he has, and 14 that's the charge the leaders have to negotiate 15 the budget, put one on the floor that we can all 16 either vote for or against, so, unfortunately, I 17 vote for this bill, but I just feel terrible for 18 all the employees, particularly the employees of 19 the people on the other side of the aisle who 20 probably worked very hard not only in passing 21 the one-house budget but in getting Governor 22 Pataki elected. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3952 1 Senator Stachowski, how do you vote? 2 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Vote yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 4 Please continue the roll. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford. 6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 8 Senator Stafford to explain his vote. 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you. I 10 think that we cannot emphasize enough what has 11 been said here about us not having a budget. 12 Believe it or not, the professionals can sit 13 down and really put a budget together if people 14 cooperate and people are willing to share 15 information so that they can get the various 16 numbers and work from there. 17 Mr. President, this has not been 18 done, and this is why we have this bill today to 19 pay the state workers and there are some very 20 serious aspects in this bill. But it's also 21 very serious that we don't have a budget and the 22 people throughout the state are saying we send 23 them there, and we can put people on the moon 3953 1 but we can't get a budget and I think, Mr. 2 President, we have to emphasize that the 3 Majority of the other house has refused to 4 cooperate again to provide the numbers, the in 5 formation necessary to sit down and to put a 6 sensible budget together. 7 I vote yes, but I also implore, I 8 request that all, including the Majority in the 9 other house, sit down seriously and begin 10 working toward putting together a budget that 11 the people in this state deserve. 12 Thank you. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 14 Senator Stafford in the affirmative. Please 15 continue the roll. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Stavisky. 18 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. 19 President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 21 Senator Stavisky to explain his vote. 22 SENATOR STAVISKY: How quickly we 23 change the script based upon who the governor 3954 1 is. Some of you are old enough to remember 1992 2 when there was another occupant of the 3 governor's office. His name was Mario Cuomo. 4 He had a plane ready to go to New Hampshire to 5 declare his candidacy, and this house would not 6 let Mario Cuomo have a budget on time for fear 7 that he might run for President of the United 8 States. 9 He apparently was not 10 invincible. We proved it in the 1994 election, 11 but I don't believe that history should be 12 written solely on the basis of who is the 13 occupant of the second floor. If the Governor 14 was responsible in 1992 for the failure to 15 produce a budget, and I think the failure was 16 really in this house, then that responsibility 17 should carry over to 1995 regardless of the 18 change in the occupancy of the Governor's 19 office. 20 Again, on the issue of merit, are 21 Senate interns, called Senate assistants, stud 22 ents, to be denied their compensation? They 23 receive the magnificent sum of $2500 for the 3955 1 entire session, and we are denying the interns 2 who work in our offices the right to be compen 3 sated for food money while they get $2500 for 4 the entire session. 5 If you want to have a standard, 6 why not policy-makers and those earning in 7 excess of $53,000? Why not make that the cut 8 off point for all of the categories that are 9 listed in this bill that are excluded from this 10 bill. But you are now taking food money from 11 the Senate assistants, for students and others 12 who are not paid the sums that are given to the 13 Governor and some of his staff. 14 I notice again the absence of the 15 Lt. Governor. Her salary should definitely not 16 be paid, and I was so impressed with the way 17 that Randy Kuhl ran the Senate in her absence 18 that I would be prepared to support Senator Kuhl 19 for Lt. Governor or abolish the office and make 20 him a permanent presiding officer (applause) or 21 you, sir. That's where you can economize. 22 Where is the Lt. Governor? She 23 hasn't been seen. We want a "Wanted" poster put 3956 1 up or maybe a "Missing" poster put up with her 2 picture and her name. But I think this is 3 foolish. This is petty. This is partisan. 4 This is mean-spirited. If you want to find the 5 responsibility, continue it downstairs to the 6 second floor. 7 I vote aye on this bill. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 9 Please continue the roll. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo. 11 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully. 13 SENATOR TULLY: Aye. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella. 15 SENATOR VELELLA: Explain my 16 vote. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 18 Senator Velella to explain his vote. 19 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator 20 Stavisky, again, I've got to answer you. Don't 21 worry about the Lt. Governor. She is merely 22 keeping the schedule that Stan Lundine had, left 23 over when he left here. You know, that house 3957 1 hold name, that name that knew what he was doing 2 at all times. You remember Stan Lundine. She's 3 just following the commitment that he had made 4 and left over when he left office. 5 But let me talk a little about 6 history. You talk about rewriting history. 7 That's what we're doing here today, when during 8 the great Cuomo years, the years that led us to 9 where we are now, when we have two parts of the 10 puzzle firmly committed saying where they would 11 spend the money, how they would raise the money 12 and agreeing on exactly what would be done. 13 We've showed our hand, we've put our cards on 14 the table, and I just heard the Governor saying 15 to Shelly, What did you want to sit at the table 16 and bargain? How much money do you want to 17 spend? Where do you want to spend it? And the 18 Speaker still refuses until today to tell the 19 Governor, to tell this house how, when and where 20 he wants to spend the money. 21 How do you bargain with somebody 22 who just totally refuses to even tell you what 23 they want? It's impossible to deal with someone 3958 1 like that. We've got an impossible Speaker. 2 We've produced a budget. Two out of the three 3 parties are ready to go. The third party 4 refuses to negotiate and even tell us what his 5 dream wish is, just to start the negotiation. 6 How can you possibly deal with 7 someone like that and try to blame the 8 Governor? The Governor is right. He has 9 prepared a budget. It's been accepted by one of 10 these houses. We put our cards on the table. 11 Never before in the history of Mario Cuomo that 12 I can remember was that done. The Assembly 13 didn't pass his budget and say, We are 14 completely agreed; now you go ahead, Senate. 15 We've always had the burden of trying to get 16 together with the Governor where the houses 17 didn't agree with him, his own houses, so don't 18 say we're rewriting history. You're the one 19 rewriting history. We have two parts of the 20 puzzle solved. The third party won't even put 21 their request on the table. I vote aye. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 23 Please continue the roll. 3959 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker. 2 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon. 4 SENATOR WALDON: To explain my 5 vote. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 7 Senator Waldon to explain his vote. 8 SENATOR WALDON: Mirror, mirror 9 on the wall, on this issue. Who would prove to 10 be the baddest of them all? I believe it is not 11 the second floor who would be Superman or even 12 our house nor the lower house or today some 13 Kryptonite was thrown out in the path of this 14 process. I believe the true Superman will be 15 the Honorable Carl McCall, because tomorrow he 16 will issue the checks and he will ensure that 17 the little people are able to buy the bread and 18 the victuals for their families, pay their rent 19 and all other necessities of life. 20 It is most unfortunate that some 21 of my colleagues have tried to paint a picture 22 where it seems that we on this side of the aisle 23 are stonewalling this process, are being 3960 1 sanctimonious. There are no sacred cows here. 2 We're all part of this process because we chose 3 to be. I believe that the mean-spiritedness 4 being shown by this Governor will haunt him 5 forever, that his legacy was that he was a bully 6 of the middle and the small and those who are 7 not able to defend themselves. 8 There's a bigger law than the law 9 which will allow Carl McCall to pay everyone 10 tomorrow, and that is the moral imperative and 11 those of us who are Christian readily recognize 12 the phrase which says "that which you do to the 13 least of My brethren you also do unto Me." And 14 so I think that the moral imperative says that 15 we must move forward. We must stop beating up 16 and grinding down and grinding out the little 17 people; we must stop feeding the rich with the 18 poor in this process. We must ensure that 19 everyone gets a fair shake. 20 Because of the fact that I 21 totally support the union structure, I'm going 22 to vote yes on this bill, but I want to 23 admonish, as did Montgomery, I wish to admonish 3961 1 the union structure they should not have gone 2 forward for themselves unless every single 3 individual impacted by this process would be 4 paid. 5 However, this is a fait accompli, 6 because we all know that everyone tomorrow will 7 be paid. In fact, I believe -- I believe there 8 was sufficient intelligence on the second floor 9 to know that, if the appropriations were left in 10 the bill, that everyone would be paid and 11 therefore, space could be saved in terms of the 12 newspapers and the media that, Yes, everybody 13 was paid. I did what I thought I had to do, but 14 in the final analysis the process took over and 15 that is see why I wasn't able to maintain things 16 as I promised that they would be maintained. 17 Those of us who are adults and 18 sophisticated understand what's really going 19 down here, and it's really O.K. It's O.K. It's 20 part of the blue smoke and mirrors that is 21 politics. Today the champion is us, the people 22 of the state of New York; tomorrow the champion 23 will be Carl McCall. 3962 1 I vote yes because he will pay 2 everybody tomorrow. 3 Thank you, Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 5 Senator Waldon in the affirmative. Continue the 6 roll. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright. 8 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 10 Please call the absentees. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor. 12 (Affirmative indication. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 14 (There was no response. ) 15 Senator Galiber. 16 SENATOR GALIBER: To explain my 17 vote. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 19 Senator Galiber to explain his vote. I'm 20 sorry. 21 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes, Mr. 22 President. It's my understanding that part of 23 this process is that in theory that staff, our 3963 1 staff, will influence us and that's why they're 2 not being paid. I had a meeting with my staff 3 and they decided that someone had to stand up 4 for all the staff here in Albany that is not 5 getting paid. The unions are going to get paid 6 one way or the other. 7 My vote is in the negative. The 8 staff worked so very hard for us. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 10 Senator Galiber in the negative. Continue the 11 roll. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator 13 Gonzalez. 14 (There was no response. ) 15 Senator Goodman. 16 (There was no response. ) 17 Senator Hoffmann. 18 (There was no response. ) 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 20 Results. 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53, nays 4. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 23 The bill is passed. 3964 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 3 would you call up Calendar 361, Senate 3958. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 5 The Secretary will read. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 361, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 8 3958, an act making an appropriation for the 9 support of government. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 11 is there a message of necessity and 12 appropriation at the desk? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 14 Yes, there is. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: I move we 16 accept. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 18 All in favor of accepting the message of 19 necessity please signify by saying aye. 20 (Response of "Aye".) 21 Opposed, nay. 22 (There was no response.) 23 The message is accepted. 3965 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Last section. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3 Please read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 7 Call the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll.) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 11 The bill is passed. 12 Senator Skelos -- excuse me. 13 Senator Stafford, why do you 14 rise? 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: With Senator 16 Skelos' permission, could I please remind the 17 Finance members that we are in a meeting and 18 come right back in, please. We have six 19 nominees. 20 Thank you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 22 There will be an immediate meeting of the 23 Finance Committee in Room 332. 3966 1 Senator - 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 3 would you recognize Senator Volker, please? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 5 Senator Volker. 6 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 7 with the permission of the Majority Leader, the 8 Codes meeting that was -- excuse me -- scheduled 9 for noon in 708 will be held at approximately 10 12:30 or as soon as the Finance meeting is done 11 over here at the conference room. It will be in 12 Room 708 and will be at 12:30 or as soon 13 thereafter as we can do it after the Finance 14 meeting is done. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 16 Codes Committee meeting in 708 immediately after 17 the Finance Committee meeting or 12:30, 18 whichever is earlier. 19 Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you 21 recognize Senator Mendez? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 23 Okay. Senator Skelos yields to Senator Mendez. 3967 1 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you. 2 There will be a Minority 3 Conference at 1:00 o'clock. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 5 There will be a Minority Conference at 1:00 p.m. 6 Senator Cook. 7 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, we 8 will be having an Education Committee meeting at 9 1:00 o'clock. 10 Mr. President, I think 11 considering the fact the Minority has a 12 conference, out of courtesy to them, we'll delay 13 the Education Committee until later in the day. 14 I'll call it off the floor. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 16 All right. The Education Committee will be 17 called later in the day off the floor. 18 Senator Skelos. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr. 20 President. A reminder that there is a Finance 21 Committee meeting now, that Codes will follow 22 them in Senator Volker's conference room in the 23 LOB and the Senate will stand in recess until 3968 1 1:30 p.m. sharp. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3 Senator Seward -- okay. 4 The Senate is in recess until 5 1:30 p.m. sharp. 6 (Whereupon, at 12:11 p.m., the 7 Senate recessed.) 8 (The Senate reconvened at 2:00 9 p.m.) 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Senate will come to order. 12 The Chair recognizes Senator 13 Skelos. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr. 15 President. Is there a Resolution Calendar? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 17 a Resolution Calendar. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: I move that we 19 adopt the Resolution Calendar in its entirety. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 motion is to adopt the Resolution Calendar. All 22 those in favor signify by saying aye. 23 (Response of "Aye".) 3969 1 Opposed, nay. 2 (There was no response.) 3 The Resolution Calendar is 4 adopted. 5 Senator Skelos. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr. 7 President. At this time may we return to 8 reports of standing committees and, I believe 9 there's a Finance Committee report at the desk. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We will 11 return to reports of standing committees. The 12 Secretary will read the Finance report. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 14 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 15 following nomination: John A. Johnson of 16 Buffalo, Director of the Division For Youth. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Skelos. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you please 20 recognize Senator Stafford. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 22 recognizes Senator Stafford. 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr. 3970 1 President. 2 We have a very fine nominee. We 3 were all most impressed and I have the pleasure 4 to yield to some fine Senators. I believe 5 Senator Nozzolio first and we'll have some other 6 Senators. 7 Thank you. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 9 recognizes Senator Nozzolio. 10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. 12 Mr. President, my colleagues, I 13 am very pleased to put forward for considera 14 tion, for confirmation by this house as a report 15 from the Senate Crime Victims, Crime and 16 Corrections Committee and the Senate Children 17 and Families Committee, along with the Senate 18 Finance Committee, Governor's Pataki's 19 nomination of John Johnson as Director for the 20 New York State Division For Youth; that Mr. 21 Johnson is extremely qualified in many diverse 22 areas. 23 He has a great management con 3971 1 sultant background, has worked for implementa 2 tion of anti-drug and resident initiative action 3 plans for the Department of Housing and Urban 4 Development. He has worked with young people 5 throughout his career in a variety of positions 6 and comes extremely well recommended. 7 I think that before I yield to 8 Senator Rath who would like to speak on this 9 nomination, I would like to say that Mr. Johnson 10 impressed our committee with his energy, his 11 enthusiasm and his interest in working in a very 12 difficult problem area in the criminal justice 13 system, and that's with young people. 14 Mr. President, I would now like 15 to yield to Senator Rath. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Rath, excuse me for just an interruption. 18 The Chair recognizes Senator Cook 19 for an announcement. 20 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, I 21 would like to announce the Education Committee 22 will meet immediately in Room 124. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 3972 1 will be an immediate meeting of the Education 2 Committee in Room 124, Room 124. 3 The Chair recognizes Senator Rath 4 on the nomination. 5 SENATOR RATH: Thank you, Mr. 6 President, my colleagues. 7 It gives me a great deal of 8 pleasure to rise in support of the nomination of 9 John Johnson for the position of Commissioner of 10 the Department of Youth. 11 Many of the years that I was in 12 the Erie County Legislature, John Johnson served 13 as the Director of the Erie County Department of 14 Youth Services and prior to that, he served as 15 Director of the Erie County Department of 16 Criminal Justice Services. I had many occasions 17 to work with John and to know of the work that 18 he was doing. 19 Some of the questions that were 20 asked in the Finance Committee today dealt with 21 what kinds of programs that such -- or was John 22 going to be able to manage in relation to the 23 kinds of resources that there were for him, and 3973 1 resources to us usually transfers into dollars. 2 Well, in Erie County we didn't have much more 3 money than New York State has, and so - 4 although the dollars are, of course, a great 5 deal more here, comparatively, we worked out a 6 very, very tight budget in Erie County, and John 7 was well-known for the coalitions that he 8 developed: Collaborative efforts with municipal 9 youth bureaus, recreation departments, private 10 not-for-profit agencies, United Way, Catholic 11 Charities, Department of Social Services, on 12 down the line. 13 John found a way to get the job 14 done one way or another. If the dollars weren't 15 in his budget to get it done, he went around the 16 problem and went to one of the community 17 agencies that was going to make it possible for 18 him to get that job done for the young people 19 that he had in his charge. 20 John focuses primarily on 21 possibilities rather than on problems and he has 22 a very forceful and, I would say, stern concern 23 for how the young people in the facilities 3974 1 behave. 2 He said this afternoon in the 3 Finance Committee that the young people who had 4 found themselves under the care of his 5 department -- and in one of the facilities 6 because they had been involved in gangs and that 7 they expected those gangs were going to 8 continue, through their time in the facility 9 John was very clear that that's not going to be 10 allowed and someone made it a simile to the bad 11 apple spoiling all the barrel, John's comment 12 was "We're not going to allow for that. The bad 13 apples will be removed because the good young 14 people who are trying to get a handle on their 15 life and get a grip on what they're doing cannot 16 be poisoned and spoiled by one or two very bad 17 apples." As I said, I have a great deal of 18 pleasure in rising in support of this 19 nomination. I look forward to working with him. 20 And in conclusion, let me say 21 that John worked with both sides of the aisle in 22 Erie County. He'll work with both sides of the 23 aisle here as well as everyone else out there in 3975 1 the community. He's looking to go help the 2 young people. 3 Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 5 recognizes Senator Saland on the nomination. 6 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 7 President. 8 Mr. President, I can't profess 9 that I have known Mr. Johnson as long or as well 10 as our colleague, Senator Rath. My contact with 11 him has been of rather recent vintage, and I 12 consider myself fortunate to have had the 13 opportunity to meet with him, first privately 14 and then in the course of a number of meetings 15 in my capacity as the chairman of the Children 16 and Families Committee and as recently as a few 17 -- a couple of hours ago as a member of the 18 Finance Committee, and I must tell you, he's 19 impressed me as a very capable and dedicated 20 individual, one who certainly appears to be 21 rather bright and personable and with having 22 said all of those wonderful things, I sort of 23 question why he would want to be the head of DFY 3976 1 given its somewhat rather troubled history over 2 the course of the past several years, but I look 3 to him as being a source of remedying some of 4 the checkered events that have seemed to have 5 plagued the Division for Youth over, as I said, 6 some several years now. I think it's time for a 7 new approach. I think it's time for a strong 8 personality, one who, I believe, is both 9 sensitive to the needs of our young people and 10 yet, at the same time, understands that at times 11 there will be the need to perhaps resort to 12 means that the prior DFY officialdom would have 13 looked askance at. Namely, there are those who 14 have to be taken out of the population when 15 their misconduct warrants it. 16 I wish him nothing but the best. 17 I feel that we will have the opportunity to work 18 well together and look forward to resolving some 19 of the very same issues that I'm sure are number 20 one on his agenda. 21 The Governor has made a superb 22 appointment, and I think he will serve the 23 people of the state of New York as well as he 3977 1 has served in his various other capacities in 2 the federal government and in Erie County 3 government. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 5 recognizes Senator Nozzolio to close on the 6 confirmation. 7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. 9 As was well stated by Senator 10 Rath and Senator Saland, we have an excellent 11 nominee here. I look to him to do great things 12 with a very troubled society and a troubled 13 agency in the sense that we need to, as Governor 14 Pataki said, be firm enough, fair enough, strong 15 enough, but ensure that we don't lose those 16 children along the way in placing them in a 17 setting -- in settings that would not be 18 appropriate. 19 Mr. President, it's an honor for 20 me to move the nomination of John Johnson. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 question is on the confirmation of John A. 23 Johnson as Director of the Division For Youth. 3978 1 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye".) 3 Opposed, nay. 4 (There was no response.) 5 The nominee is confirmed. 6 John Johnson, congratulations. 7 (Applause.) 8 And good luck. 9 The Secretary will read. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 11 from the Committee on Finance, offers the 12 following nomination: Charles A. Gargano, of 13 New York City, member of the Port Authority of 14 New York and New Jersey. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 16 would recognize Senator Stafford on the 17 nomination. 18 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would 19 incorporate the remarks of the people on this 20 side of the aisle when the ambassador was up for 21 nomination for the office of -- or as the 22 Commissioner/Director of the Department of 23 Economic Development. He's a fine nominee. 3979 1 He'll do an excellent job. I move his 2 nomination. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 4 recognizes Senator Levy on the nomination. 5 SENATOR LEVY: Thank you very 6 much, Mr. President. 7 Oh, I'm sorry, on the -- on the 8 Kalikow nomination. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 question is on the nomination of Charles A. 11 Gargano of Bay Shore to be a member of the Port 12 Authority of New York and New Jersey. All those 13 in favor of the nomination signify by saying 14 aye. 15 (Response of "Aye".) 16 Opposed, nay. 17 (There was no response.) 18 The confirmation is confirmed. 19 The Secretary will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 21 from the Committee on Finance, offers the 22 following nomination: Peter S. Kalikow, of New 23 York City, member of the Port Authority of New 3980 1 York and New Jersey. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 3 recognizes Senator Levy. 4 SENATOR LEVY: Yes. Thank you 5 very much, Mr. President. 6 Briefly, because Peter Kalikow's 7 name was before this Senate in late June to 8 become a member of the MTA Board. 9 Let me say that the hopes of 10 myself and so many others in this chamber that 11 we were going to have a new breed of members of 12 the MTA Board, types of leaders like Peter 13 Kalikow who had a hands-on involvement in every 14 phase of the operation of the MTA Board, were 15 realized with his appointment and his going on 16 the MTA Board because he has fulfilled that hope 17 and that expectation. He has been involved in 18 every single aspect of the operation of the MTA 19 Board and we came to the very, very important 20 issue of the merger of the Transit Authority 21 Police Department into the New York City Police 22 Department, though he and David Mack and other 23 members of the board opposed the transfer of 3981 1 that police department into the New York City 2 Police Department - 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Levy, excuse me just a minute. 5 Senator Paterson, why do you 6 rise? 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 8 I'm very sorry to interrupt Senator Levy, but do 9 we have a quorum here? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Secretary informs me we do have a quorum, 12 Senator Paterson. 13 SENATOR CONNOR: Request a quorum 14 call. Ask for a quorum call. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: May we have a 16 quorum call, Mr. President? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The clerk 18 will call the roll. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 20 (There was no response.) 21 Senator Babbush. 22 (There was no response.) 23 Senator Bruno. 3982 1 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor. 3 (Affirmative indication.) 4 Senator Cook. 5 (There was no response.) 6 Senator DeFrancisco. 7 (There was no response.) 8 Senator DiCarlo. 9 SENATOR DiCARLO: Yes. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator 11 Dollinger. 12 (There was no response.) 13 Senator Espada. 14 SENATOR ESPADA: Here. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley. 16 SENATOR FARLEY: Here. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Galiber. 18 (There was no response.) 19 Senator Gold. 20 (There was no response.) 21 Senator Gonzalez. 22 (There was no response.) 23 Senator Goodman, excused. 3983 1 Senator Hannon. 2 SENATOR HANNON: Here. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock. 4 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Here. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann. 6 (There was no response.) 7 Senator Holland. 8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson. 10 (There was no response.) 11 Senator Jones. 12 (There was no response.) 13 Senator Kruger. 14 (There was no response.) 15 Senator Kuhl. 16 SENATOR KUHL: Present. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack. 18 (There was no response.) 19 Senator Larkin. 20 SENATOR LARKIN: Here. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle. 22 (There was no response.) 23 Senator Leibell. 3984 1 SENATOR LEIBELL: Here. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leichter. 3 (There was no response.) 4 Senator Levy. 5 SENATOR LEVY: Present. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous. 7 (There was no response.) 8 Senator Maltese. 9 SENATOR MALTESE: Present. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator 11 Marcellino. 12 (There was no response.) 13 Senator Marchi. 14 SENATOR MARCHI: Here. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator 16 Markowitz. 17 (There was no response.) 18 Senator Maziarz. 19 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Here. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez. 21 (There was no response.) 22 Senator Marcellino. 23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Here. 3985 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2 Montgomery. 3 (There was no response.) 4 Senator Nanula. 5 (There was no response.) 6 Senator Nozzolio. 7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Present. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato. 9 (There was no response.) 10 Senator Oppenheimer. 11 (There was no response.) 12 Senator Padavan. 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Here. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Paterson. 15 (Affirmative indication.) 16 Senator Present. 17 SENATOR PRESENT: Here. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 19 SENATOR RATH: Here. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 21 SENATOR SALAND: Here. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Santiago. 23 (There was no response.) 3986 1 Senator Sears. 2 (There was no response.) 3 Senator Seward. 4 (There was no response.) 5 Senator Skelos. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Here. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 8 (There was no response.) 9 Senator Solomon. 10 (There was no response.) 11 Senator Spano. 12 SENATOR SPANO: Present. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator 14 Stachowski. 15 (There was no response.) 16 Senator Stafford. 17 (There was no response.) 18 Senator Trunzo. 19 SENATOR TRUNZO: Here. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Paterson, there are 31 members at that point 22 that are present. The quorum is present. 23 Continue on the confirmation. 3987 1 Senator Levy, you had the floor. 2 SENATOR LEVY: Thank you very 3 much, Mr. President. 4 I was saying -- at the time that 5 Senator Paterson asked for the quorum call, I 6 was talking really about the job that Peter 7 Kalikow did to ease the merger of the Transit 8 Authority Police Department into the New York 9 City Police Department, and I know that he is 10 continuing to provide hands-on oversight to 11 ensure on a continuing basis that the effort, 12 the successful effort to combat violent and 13 other crime in our subways and in our buses 14 within the jurisdiction of the Transit Authority 15 continues at the level of success that we have 16 had in the past five years. 17 Peter Kalikow's hallmark and his 18 tradition is one of being able to get people to 19 work together and, as I said at the meeting of 20 the Finance Committee, he reminds me so much - 21 and I was an admirer of the job that was done by 22 Dick Ravitch as the chair of the MTA and many, 23 many of the qualities that Dick had that moved 3988 1 that authority forward to really a high 2 watermark of success that it had during Dick's 3 tenure certainly have been demonstrated by Peter 4 Kalikow. 5 Let me say, Mr. President, that 6 we all know Peter Kalikow to be a successful 7 business person. We are cognizant of the 8 outstanding job that he did as the publisher of 9 the New York Post, and I know that he will do a 10 fine job as a member of the Port Authority, 11 because there's a common thread between serving 12 on the Port Authority, being involved and being 13 a leader in transportation with the MTA and 14 transportation on the regional New York, New 15 York State, New York City and New Jersey bases 16 that is the jurisdiction of the Port Authority. 17 The Governor is to be commended 18 for this outstanding appointment, and it's my 19 privilege, Mr. President, to move the 20 confirmation of this nomination. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 question is on the confirmation. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 3989 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Gold. 3 SENATOR GOLD: I just want to - 4 I'm sorry. I was in a conference and I just 5 wanted to get up to speed. We are now on the 6 confirmation of Mr. Kalikow, is that it? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: That's 8 correct, Senator Gold. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. I would 10 like to speak on this. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 12 recognizes Senator Gold on the confirmation. 13 SENATOR GOLD: In discussing the 14 confirmation, I want to, first of all, address 15 my comments directly to Mr. Kalikow. 16 Mr. Kalikow, you, fortunately or 17 unfortunately, have spent most of your life in 18 the business world where time is money, where 19 decisions are always important, where time is 20 always important and unfortunately for you 21 today, there's a process under way which, by the 22 way, will end, I think, with your successful 23 confirmation because you deserve that, but you 3990 1 are unfortunately in the midst of something 2 which is a little different than the business 3 world. 4 So I would say to you that, for 5 the time being, if you just sit back and relax. 6 There's no doubt in my mind based upon your 7 resume and your work in the community that you 8 will be confirmed, but it just might not happen 9 in a minute or maybe a few minutes or maybe an 10 hour. 11 Peter S. Kalikow is an individual 12 who really has lived a -- not only an interest 13 ing life, but a life which is very admirable in 14 many, many ways. Lives in Manhattan, lost to 15 Queens -- you should be in Queens, good place - 16 and we're being asked today to confirm him to 17 the Port of New York and New Jersey Authority, a 18 job, by the way, which the Governor has given 19 code POT-1177. His work number, I won't give 20 you, because I assume if he goes to the Port 21 Authority, there might be a different number for 22 some of that time. 23 The gentleman whose place he is 3991 1 taking is a former state Senator, someone I had 2 the honor of serving with, Basil Paterson. I 3 think some of you may remember him, a very, very 4 distinguished colleague, and I can understand 5 that the Governor would want to put in people 6 who the Governor chose but, in all candor and 7 with no disrespect to Mr. Kalikow at all, I 8 think Basil Paterson was doing a terrific job. 9 I think he did a terrific job while he was a 10 member of the Senate. I'm trying to remember 11 exactly which seat he sat in, but I don't 12 remember. 13 This appointment, I guess, comes 14 under Section 6405 of the Unconsolidated Laws 15 which is, of course, very important. I don't 16 know whether the record has really set out the 17 history of Mr. Kalikow. I know that Senator 18 Levy has said some very nice things from the 19 heart, and I know Senator Levy knows Mr. Kalikow 20 and those remarks are very important, but I want 21 to make sure we don't miss anything. 22 Peter S. Kalikow has been the 23 president of H. -- God bless you -- H.J. Kalikow 3992 1 & Co., Inc., one of New York City's leading real 2 estate companies for 21 years. Currently a 3 board member of the Metropolitan Transit 4 Authority, Mr. Kalikow is a former owner and 5 publisher of the New York Post -- but I may vote 6 for you anyway -- a major award winning daily 7 city pap... I didn't write this. This is what 8 is in the resume ...which he purchased in 1988 9 and sold recently. 10 Mr. Kalikow began his career in 11 real estate in 1967 and became president of H.J. 12 Kalikow Co., Inc., in 1977 -- I guess that's 13 about six years later -- upon the election of 14 his father, Harold J. Kalikow, as chairman of 15 the board. I assume that's chairman of the 16 board of H.J. Kalikow & Co. 17 Following his father's passing in 18 1982, Mr. Kalikow assumed the responsibility of 19 all the Kalikow holdings, and I might put in at 20 this point that that's a very huge responsi 21 bility, and certainly very time consuming and 22 educational and admirable. 23 Peter Kalikow -- and I guess 3993 1 that's the same as Peter S. Kalikow, which is 2 what they said in the first paragraph -- is the 3 third generation to preside over the family's 4 real estate companies. For over 75 years, the 5 company has been widely recognized for its 6 precision, organization and professional 7 operation. Its products are buildings which are 8 widely architecturally dramatic in appearance, 9 yet efficient in operation and function. 10 Mr. Kalikow is an active partici 11 pant in every major real estate association and 12 has served as director of many organizations. 13 He is also extremely active in civic affairs and 14 numerous religious and philanthropic efforts. 15 Many awards attest to his efforts, generosity 16 and participation in these causes, and I'm going 17 to get to that in a while and that is not an 18 overstatement. I mean, this man and his family 19 have done some wonderful, wonderful things of a 20 philanthropic nature, and I'm going to discuss 21 those. What a lot of people have the 22 wherewithal and the capacity to do and they 23 don't do, Peter Kalikow does, and I'm proud of 3994 1 him for that. 2 In his industry, Mr. Kalikow was 3 co-chair of the Board of Governors of the 4 association -- Associated Builders and owners of 5 the Greater New York which gave him the Young 6 Master Builder Award in 1980 and the Golden 7 Circle Award in 1981. In addition, Mr. Kalikow 8 serves as director of the Rent Stabilization 9 Association, the Real Estate Board of New York 10 and the Realty Foundation of New York. 11 In his philanthropic efforts, 12 Peter Kalikow is a governor of the New York 13 Hospital-Cornell Medical Center, as well as the 14 chairman of its pediatric development com 15 mittee. His efforts and personal contributions 16 established the new out-patient pediatric and 17 ambulatory care center named in honor of his 18 parents, Harold and Juliet Kalikow, at the New 19 York Hospital-Cornell Medical Center. 20 Mr. Kalikow is a member of the 21 Society of Fellows for the National Jewish 22 Hospital Research Center in Denver. He 23 continues to serve on the board of directors of 3995 1 the Jewish National Fund and is also on the New 2 York Holocaust Memorial Commission. 3 And, by the way, Mr. Kalikow, as 4 you look down on this chamber, you should take 5 some pride in the fact that about a year ago, we 6 passed my law which now mandates that the 7 holocaust and the evils of genocide and slavery 8 are now taught it every school in this state, 9 and New York is -- I think became the fifth or 10 sixth in line nationally to do that. 11 I have to divert for a minute. I 12 know that you were drawn into a business that 13 your family had been in. I don't know whether 14 many people know this story, but since we have 15 time, I know you're going to want to hear it. 16 I have a daughter -- the Lord 17 only gave me one, but I adore her, and she has 18 been in the press business, so to speak, 19 free-lance writer for a music magazine and, lo 20 and behold, about some time last year she 21 decided to get involved in politics. Where that 22 came from, I don't know, but she has been the 23 press person for a California assemblyman by the 3996 1 name of Richard Katz -- no, no, she's smarter 2 than that -- and apparently Richard Katz was the 3 sponsor of the California law and, in a 4 conversation with my daughter, she says, "Dad, I 5 don't -- you paid for my education. You helped 6 along the way. I ought to give you something in 7 return", and she gave me this wonderful idea of 8 Richard Katz that we ought to be teaching the 9 holocaust in the schools. So we brought it to 10 New York, and with the help of everyone in this 11 chamber and Governor Pataki who was a Senator 12 and, as everybody knows, a lot of my colleagues 13 on the other side of the aisle do not like to 14 vote for mandates, particularly in the 15 educational field, and with my great gratitude 16 and certainly to the honor and respect of my 17 colleagues, they felt that this was one area 18 where a mandate made sense. And so the law that 19 Assemblyman Katz passed in California, and which 20 had previously been voted on in the state of 21 Illinois, was voted on here and we joined New 22 Jersey and Florida to make it the law. I 23 thought you would be interested because of your 3997 1 work with the Holocaust Memorial Commission. 2 Mr. Kalikow is also a founder of 3 the Long Island Jewish Hillside Medical Center 4 and the Albert Einstein College of Medicine of 5 Yeshiva University. 6 In 1976, Mr. Kalikow and his 7 father were honored as Man of the Year by the 8 UJA Federation as a tribute to their hard work. 9 In 1979, they were given the Norman Tishman 10 Award by the Anti-defamation League of the B'nai 11 B'rith, a very extraordinary organization which, 12 by the way, helps everybody. I think the work 13 of ADL in contributing to our society is just 14 very important and very extraordinary. Anti 15 Semitism and hatred are not only in other parts 16 of the world, unfortunately; we do have those 17 problems here, and I'm told, Mr. Kalikow, that I 18 ought to read faster. At any rate, I could go 19 on and on, and I'm told it's now unnecessary. 20 So with that, Mr. President, I 21 want to tell you that I do admire Mr. Kalikow. 22 I appreciate your patience, sir. You are - 23 running a business as you do, you are certainly 3998 1 smart enough to know what is going on here, and 2 I appreciate your patience. 3 With that, Mr. President, I would 4 just suggest it's a good nomination. I'm going 5 to vote for it. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 question is on the confirmation of Peter S. 8 Kalikow of New York City as a member of the Port 9 Authority of New York and New Jersey. All those 10 in favor signify by saying aye. 11 (Response of "Aye".) 12 Opposed, nay. 13 (There was no response.) 14 The nominee is confirmed. 15 Peter Kalikow who is with us 16 today, congratulations. Good luck in your 17 appointment, sir. 18 (Applause.) 19 The Secretary will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 21 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 22 following nomination: Peter W. Delaney of 23 Peekskill, Commissioner of General Services. 3999 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 2 recognizes Senator Stafford. 3 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr. 4 President. 5 It is a pleasure to yield to 6 Senator Leibell for this very fine nomination. 7 Senator Leibell. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 9 recognizes Senator Leibell. 10 SENATOR LEIBELL: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. 12 I'm very pleased to once again 13 have the opportunity to rise on a nomination 14 that has been submitted to us by our governor, 15 George Pataki, for our consideration and 16 support. 17 Over the last few weeks, we have 18 seen the Governor submit to us, and as was 19 exhibited here already today, so many well 20 qualified men and women who are coming forward 21 and giving of themselves to join us in the 22 public sector. 23 I'm very pleased today to have 4000 1 the opportunity to speak on behalf of Peter 2 Delaney who's been nominated by the Governor to 3 what is certainly one of our most critical and 4 important positions, that of Commissioner of our 5 Office of General Services. 6 This is a particularly critical 7 and important position as we, like the rest of 8 the nation, talk about -- we talk about stream 9 lining and changing government. 10 We are talking about a department 11 that has, I think it's fair to say, absolutely 12 huge responsibilities and handles a great deal 13 of the public's money. 14 We're very fortunate that, with 15 Peter Delaney, we have someone who is before us 16 today who comes with a combination, the sort of 17 combination that the Governor has been seeking 18 in some many of these nominations, a combination 19 of both public and private experience. 20 Although I have had the good 21 fortune to know Peter Delaney for many years, I, 22 quite frankly, until I had the chance to chat 23 with him and see his resume, was not aware of 4001 1 exactly how involved he has been. 2 He has been involved, of course, 3 with many civic and community groups which iden 4 tifies him as someone who is more than a private 5 and public servant, but someone who cares 6 greatly in all aspects about the communities in 7 which he has lived. 8 But in the private sector he has 9 been a successful businessman, someone who is 10 intimately involved with the role of an 11 entrepreneur and, in particular, such businesses 12 as real estate and marketing. Beyond that, he 13 also brings to us a very, very extensive 14 resume. In fact, it would be hard to think of 15 anyone who could have a resume more suited for a 16 particular position than this nominee does. 17 He has served as administrator of 18 the Westchester County Department of General 19 Services where he has been responsible for 20 directing and managing all the divisions and 21 functions of that very large department, 22 including their bureau of purchase and supplies, 23 information systems, electronic data processing, 4002 1 telecommunications, building management, 2 leasing, automotive services and fleet 3 management and radio communication; responsible 4 for directing there a staff of approximately 300 5 people with an annual operating budget in excess 6 of $50 million and a capital budget of $100 7 million. That's exactly the sort of 8 qualifications we're looking for for this 9 position. 10 He has served as general manager 11 of the Westchester County Center. For those of 12 my colleagues who are from Westchester County, 13 you would, of course, be aware of this 14 facility. It is a large facility that dominates 15 the public life of our county. There he's been 16 responsible for the managment and administration 17 of that facility. 18 He has served also as -- in the 19 Westchester County Executive's Office as 20 assistant to the County Executive and also in 21 the Westchester County Office of Economic 22 Development where he was an economic development 23 specialist and program administrator. 4003 1 We are very fortunate to have 2 Peter Delaney here before us today. As I noted, 3 I have had the good fortune to know him and to 4 be someone who has admired his work throughout 5 his years in public and private service -- both 6 sectors. 7 Mr. President, I have great honor 8 to move today the nomination of Peter Delaney. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 10 recognizes Senator Farley on the nomination. 11 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr. 12 President. 13 I'm pleased to get up to second 14 the nomination of Peter Delaney for Commissioner 15 of OGS and to congratulate the Governor on this 16 appointment. 17 You know, this is one of the more 18 difficult jobs in state government, one that 19 affects my district particularly, and Senator 20 Hoblock's. Peter Delaney is eminently 21 qualified. I think we can all attest to that, 22 and we're very fortunate to have somebody that 23 is willing to serve New York State with his 4004 1 background. 2 I'm pleased to second this 3 nomination and to wish him well, and we've had 4 some great commissioners in this office and I'm 5 confident that Peter Delaney will be one of the 6 best that's ever served as Commissioner of OGS. 7 I wish you well, Peter. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 9 recognizes Senator Nozzolio on the nomination. 10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. 12 I rise as my colleagues have to 13 support this nomination and echo the comments 14 particularly of Senator Leibell. I believe this 15 is an excellent appointment and that I remain 16 continually impressed with Mr. Delaney's 17 interest and activity in making New York State 18 government more cost-effective and more 19 efficient. 20 I'd share with my colleagues 21 already his approach to looking at the way the 22 state has been doing its business and saying, 23 yes, as every family has had to find more 4005 1 economies of scale, have had to show how each 2 expenditure needs to be stretched. This 3 gentleman -- this appointment in Mr. Delaney is 4 an excellent example of how we can do things 5 better. 6 I was extremely pleased with, 7 before he even got on the job, his attention to 8 looking at ways that we could move some of state 9 services that had heretofore been sacrosanct as 10 only provided by the state to look to the 11 potentials to privatize some of those entities 12 to save the taxpayers money and put more to work 13 in the private sector than in the public sector. 14 I applaud the Governor's 15 nomination. I think it's an excellent, 16 excellent opportunity that we will see great 17 things from this commissioner and I applaud his 18 appointment and urge his confirmation. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 20 recognizes Senator Leichter on the confirmation. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 22 we've had a tradition in the Office of General 23 Service of having highly qualified commissioners 4006 1 who run the agency in a very non-partisan way, 2 and I'm thinking of John Egan, one of the 3 superior public officials that I've ever met, 4 also John Hudacs, most recently General Adams. 5 I've had an opportunity to look into some of the 6 background into Mr. Delaney. I've had a chance 7 to ask him some questions and, frankly, I have 8 have confidence that Mr. Delaney, in background 9 and outlook and approach in what he has done so 10 far, is going to carry on that non-partisan 11 tradition of service to all the people of the 12 state of New York, to run what is essentially a 13 housekeeping operation rather than to run what 14 is a political operation. 15 Mr. Delaney, as you've heard, was 16 the Commissioner of General Services for the 17 county of Westchester. There was quite a bit of 18 controversy about his functioning in that -- in 19 that position. There were a number of things 20 that came up which gave a lot of concern to 21 county legislators of both parties, and he was 22 severely criticized for some of the things that 23 he did. 4007 1 One of them, which has particular 2 relevance to us, was the leasing of some 3 property in a building that had been abandoned, 4 entering into a lease in such a way -- a 5 structure so that at least initially he avoided 6 the approval of the county legislature which, 7 apparently, was inclined not to give that 8 approval. So instead of making the lease for 9 the full term that was really intended, he made 10 it a five-year term with three five-year 11 renewals and then moved a number of state - 12 county employees into that facility. There's a 13 dispute as to whether that saved money for the 14 county or increased the cost to the county. A 15 number of people think that it increased the 16 cost to the county, but I think it has special 17 relevance because we now see that same situation 18 developing, not a perfect parallel, but there 19 are certainly some similarities in the 20 acquisition of the buildings of IBM, moving 21 state employees down into those facilities. 22 As you know, questions have been 23 raised about whether there are environmental 4008 1 hazards. Questions have been raised about 2 whether this is cost-effective. That, to me, 3 indicates a somewhat insensitivity to what I 4 would like to think would be the emphasis on the 5 public benefit rather than maybe some political 6 advantage. 7 Also questions were raised about 8 the very large increase in the space that was 9 leased and purchased by Westchester County while 10 Mr. Delaney was a Commissioner of General 11 Services. 12 Now, let me say in fairness to 13 him and his answer to me when I raised that 14 issue with him was that there had been a 15 significant increase in the Westchester County 16 work force in the early '80s, and that when he 17 came in, there was just a strong need for 18 additional space to accommodate workers that had 19 already been hired, but the figures show that in 20 1985, the county owned or leased 437,000 square 21 feet of office space for 4,809 workers. By 22 1994, it had 978,000 square feet, more than 23 doubled, while the work force had grown by only 4009 1 a couple of hundred workers during that period. 2 What I'm most concerned about, 3 though, is that Mr. Delaney, while he was 4 Commissioner of General Services -- or I should 5 specify after having been Commissioner of 6 General Services and having taken a leave of 7 absence to run the campaign of the county 8 executive, was involved in soliciting or at 9 least in speaking to people about campaign 10 contributions, people who had leased office 11 space to the county of Westchester and had 12 negotiated that with Mr. Delaney. 13 A New York Times article referred 14 to the fact that he has been criticized for 15 awarding lucrative leases to Republican 16 contributors. His answer to the question when I 17 asked him whether that was so certainly did not 18 satisfy me that it was not. 19 I don't think it's efficient for 20 somebody who is a commissioner, who is in a 21 position to purchase goods or enter in the 22 leases or buy property to say, "Yeah, I 23 solicited but at that time I had taken a leave 4010 1 of absence." I just don't think that's 2 satisfactory. 3 I asked him whether he would 4 abstain from fund-raising as the Commissioner of 5 General Services of the state of New York. He 6 refused to say that he would do so; made it very 7 clear that he felt that he could still go out 8 and raise money. I just think that's a terrible 9 mistake. 10 This office with its potential 11 for pressuring people or making people feel that 12 they need to contribute has to be run in a 13 completely non-partisan manner, and just as I 14 was very concerned with Mr. Gargano's refusal 15 when I asked him the same question considering 16 his position in the Urban Development 17 Corporation, that he would issue fund-raising, 18 neither would Mr. Delaney and, from my mind, 19 that affects his fitness for this particular 20 office. 21 I will also point out that we've 22 seen a number of people hired by the Office of 23 General Services who seem to have been hired 4011 1 primarily for their political background, and I 2 must tell you that my impression is of this 3 administration, when you take a look at their 4 hiring, when you take a look at who's been put 5 in particular positions, that it is highly 6 partisan, highly political, highly geared to the 7 potential of fund-raising for campaigns, 8 certainly not, I think, what we would expect 9 and, frankly, what I -- I know the people of the 10 state of New York would like to see that -- a 11 government that is run solely with the interests 12 of the people in mind and not for political 13 advantage or gain. 14 So I'm going to oppose this 15 nomination. I just don't feel comfortable that 16 Mr. Delaney has made those commitments to how 17 he's going to run this operation that can give 18 us the sense of security and comfort that he 19 will carry on the tradition of OGS that I 20 referred to. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 22 recognizes Senator Larkin on the confirmation. 23 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, I 4012 1 rise to support the nomination of Peter Delaney 2 as the Commissioner of the Office of General 3 Services. 4 I take issue with some of my 5 colleagues that would like to stand here today 6 and start to nitpick and find all of the things 7 that, for some reason or other, they don't want 8 to support the nomination. You know, it's a 9 tough job. 10 I remember when we stood here and 11 nominated General Bob Adams, some people on the 12 other side of the aisle even said, "What does he 13 know about the Office of General Services; he's 14 only been a General." What does Peter Delaney 15 know about being in the Office of General 16 Services? He's been there. It's a tough job. 17 That's why the Governor picked a tough man to do 18 it. You know, they make the most of a little 19 insignificant -- somebody took a leave of 20 absence. I remember issues right here in this 21 house and in the other house and on the second 22 floor, Franz, where they took leaves of 23 absence. I never saw headlines about what was 4013 1 wrong or what was right. 2 We've got an individual who's 3 been given a task to take this operation and 4 make it the best at the least cost to the 5 taxpayers of this state, and he's going to do 6 it. 7 We saw earlier here a member of 8 the opposition put a stalling tactic so we could 9 get members in this chamber so they could harass 10 the nominee, and that's exactly what it's going 11 to be. 12 But time and time again, you 13 scratch and scratch. You don't look at the 14 qualifications. How bad can we make him look in 15 the eyes of somebody in the media that's 16 upstairs; never taken the opportunity to look at 17 the accomplishments. 18 You know, I think it's a cheap 19 shot that, for 20 years, you people have had the 20 second floor and had the grandiose opportunities 21 of hiring and firing who you wanted, and now we 22 have a new administration that's hiring people 23 qualified, totally committed and are willing to 4014 1 tackle the tough jobs. You're not interested in 2 that. That doesn't make headlines. What makes 3 headlines is when you can try to get up and chop 4 them down. 5 I want to tell you, I thank Peter 6 for accepting the challenge and I look forward 7 to working with him and the people of the state 8 of New York will be a lot better off with 9 Commissioner Delaney. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 11 recognizes Senator Hoblock on the confirmation. 12 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Thank you, Mr. 13 President. 14 I rise as well in support of this 15 nomination. As has been said by so many, this 16 is not an easy job, Commissioner of the Office 17 of General Services. It's a big responsibility. 18 I have not known Mr. Delaney that 19 long, but in the few weeks that we have been 20 dealing with one another, I found him to be not 21 only receptive, but qualified in many of the 22 areas which he's going to administer over the 23 next three and a half years. 4015 1 I look forward to -- because we 2 have a number of issues that concern my district 3 as well as other districts throughout this state 4 and, although Mr. Delaney and I may have some 5 disagreement, I think that his professionalism 6 and attitude in coming to the table and trying 7 to work through many of these issues are going 8 to benefit all of us, and I look forward to 9 continuing that dialogue and making sure that we 10 resolve these issues for the best interests of 11 all. 12 So I support this nomination. I 13 applaud the Governor on his choice and I look 14 forward to working with the commissioner to 15 ensure that we do what is best. 16 Thank you, Commissioner. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 18 recognizes Senator Dollinger on the nomination. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 20 Mr. President. 21 I didn't have an opportunity to 22 be at the Finance Committee. I talked with a 23 couple of my colleagues that have, and I rise 4016 1 because I'm going to vote against Mr. Delaney, 2 and I want to respond to Senator Larkin and 3 perhaps explain why. 4 I won't deny that Mr. Delaney has 5 been in the chair of running the Office of 6 General Services in one of our largest counties 7 in this state. What bothers me is not whether 8 he's done it, but the question of what judgment 9 he's exercised with that, and only one issue 10 concerns me, only one, and I've asked Senator 11 Leichter who was at the Finance Committee, 12 apparently asked Mr. Delaney about the issue of 13 whether or not when he was doing the property 14 leasing, the five-year -- the three five-year 15 leases to avoid the legislative approval, what 16 Mr. Delaney's response was. 17 The New York Times article that 18 I'm referring to says, "Mr. Delaney acknowledged 19 that he had tried to avoid a vote by the 20 Legislature on the leases", and that's what 21 bothers me most, is that we're now about to 22 appoint someone to OGS who proudly acknowledges, 23 "Quite frankly, we were trying to get things 4017 1 done", he said. "We knew we needed 12 votes to 2 pass the leases. Quite frankly, we weren't sure 3 we would have it." 4 Under those circumstances, what 5 he did is he basically went around the back of 6 the Legislature and I don't know how we in the 7 Senate could have someone who's going to work 8 for OGS who has in his -- exercise of his 9 judgment decided that he would go around the 10 Legislature. I would note at least again based 11 upon the New York Times article and based on 12 what I've heard from the Finance Committee, that 13 both Republicans and Democrats in Westchester 14 County criticized him for doing that, and it 15 seems to me that one of the issues we can do is 16 look at the judgment that people exercise in 17 positions. 18 They may have qualifications. 19 They may have dealt with the numbers. They may 20 have dealt with the information, but the 21 question is, what kind of judgment did they 22 exhibit? And I don't think it's a cheap shot to 23 question someone who's going to be in charge of 4018 1 OGS having exercised judgment on a prior 2 occasion when the consequence of that judgment 3 was to avoid the elected representatives who are 4 charged with the responsibility for determining 5 where the people's money is spent. 6 I'm troubled by the fact that 7 someone would have appeared to crow about the 8 fact that he found a way around legislative 9 approval. That bothers me. I think that's, in 10 my judgment, an exercise of judgment on the part 11 of Mr. Delaney that is -- raises a question 12 about his fitness for this office, and I don't 13 believe that we, who believe that this 14 Legislature should have the final say on that 15 spending, should confirm someone who has already 16 acknowledged that he was able to get around the 17 Westchester County Legislature when it came to 18 leasing properties. 19 I would only point out with 20 respect to Senator Leichter's comment that the 21 newspaper article that I'm relying on which does 22 talk about the leasing of those buildings talks 23 about a pattern that seems to have some 4019 1 familiarity to the IBM deal that we discussed 2 earlier in this session, and that's the issue of 3 whether or not the deal that was made for IBM is 4 available to everybody or whether there was some 5 kind of cozy relationship between IBM, Mr. 6 Delaney and this administration. I won't 7 comment about that. I don't know about that, 8 but certainly what I can read in this newspaper 9 article suggests that what happened with respect 10 to the leasing in Westchester County bears some 11 resemblance to what's happened to IBM. 12 However, while that raises a 13 question in my mind, from my point of view, the 14 exercise of judgment in avoiding legislative 15 approval for the spending of taxpayer funds is a 16 reason to vote against Mr. Delaney, and I will 17 do so on that basis. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 19 recognizes Senator Libous on the confirmation. 20 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr. 21 President. 22 I, too, rise to support the 23 confirmation of Peter Delaney, and the last few 4020 1 confimations, I guess, since January 1st in this 2 chamber, I find quite interesting. It's kind of 3 like a political campaign. 4 We refer to newspaper articles 5 and we try to reinterpret them as we often do in 6 mail literature or maybe in a television ad, but 7 I have to say in all due respect -- and I do 8 have respect for both Senator Leichter and 9 Senator Dollinger, Mr. President -- that if the 10 rules have changed here after 20 years, I didn't 11 get a copy of a new rule book, and I would like 12 one. 13 You know, these are political 14 appointments, there's no question about it, but 15 in the case of Peter Delaney, you are looking at 16 an individual who is qualified, an individual 17 that's going to take the Office of General 18 Services and bring it into the 21st Century with 19 technology. 20 You know, the word was mentioned 21 as "care taker" and, in my opinion, that's what 22 OGS has been, under the former administrators, 23 nothing but a care taker agency, one where their 4021 1 computer operations are something that, I think 2 we would all be embarrassed to look at because 3 in some cases it doesn't exist. 4 When we took at the technology - 5 and, you know, Senator Dollinger, you mentioned 6 in the article, Mr. President, that the commis 7 sioner made a decision without going through 8 elected officials. In the first six years I 9 served here, every commissioner that served 10 never called me before they made a decision, so 11 they avoided the elected officials in this 12 chamber, at least on this side of the aisle for 13 the last six years. 14 We have an opportunity to take 15 the Office of General Services and bring it into 16 the 21st Century with an individual who is 17 qualified, who's intelligent. He's articulate, 18 and he brings the management style that this 19 state needs, a management style that is going to 20 turn this state around, and it's something that 21 we have been lacking and it's something that's 22 quite obvious as we look through the various 23 departments in this state. 4022 1 Mr. President, I think that after 2 the hearings that took place last week, I know 3 that I spoke to both Republicans and Democrats, 4 both sides of the aisle, some who at one point 5 were very concerned, very upset with Mr. 6 Delaney. Once that hearing was over, I heard 7 conversations from both sides of the aisle that 8 this guy knows what he's doing. This guy's got 9 a handle on what's going on and this guy is 10 going to take this state and the office of OGS 11 into the 21st Century. 12 Mr. President, it is without 13 hesitation and with great pride I second the 14 nomination. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Velella. 17 SENATOR VELELLA: Mr. President, 18 I can understand how some of my colleagues, 19 looking from the West Side of Manhattan up 20 toward Westchester County or looking from 21 Rochester down toward Westchester County, might 22 misunderstand what was going on in Westchester 23 County. 4023 1 Let me explain to you that, while 2 you were looking down from Rochester and trying 3 to evaluate what happened while you weren't in 4 Westchester County and while you were trying to 5 evaluate what was happening in Senate Finance 6 while you were in your committee -- in your 7 party caucus, you got a wrong message from 8 Senator Leichter. 9 The response was not "I went 10 around the Legislature." The response was "On 11 three different renewals, the Legislature had to 12 vote and pass on the propriety of that lease." 13 So there was a vote and it did have to be 14 submitted to the Legislature and that's what the 15 candidate had indicated, but that's not 16 important because it seems to me that every time 17 somebody comes up for confirmation who may have 18 played a part in somebody's campaign that 19 happened to have been a Republican, the rhetoric 20 on that side of the aisle goes up and we start 21 talking about campaign contributions, and we 22 start talking about how much money they raised 23 for a candidate. 4024 1 You know, Mario Cuomo was no 2 slouch when it came to that. His commissioners 3 did a pretty good job and I commend them, as 4 long as they didn't break the law. If you want 5 to change that process, put in a bill and change 6 the law. If you want to go to public financing, 7 fine. Put the bill in, let it be decided by 8 both houses and if it flies, great, but let's 9 not try to give people who have worked hard, who 10 have earned the great reputation in government, 11 bad names because they followed the law and 12 they're doing something that is perfectly legal, 13 perfectly ethical and perfectly proper. If 14 somebody was in a position and they made a 15 contribution, fine. 16 Mr. Delaney went through a very 17 meticulous explanation of how he left office, 18 took a leave of absence; worked as a campaign 19 manager. There are people in this house, and 20 there is evidence of members in this house who 21 haven't gone through those very careful 22 considerations. There have been some very 23 serious problems with members in-house that I 4025 1 need not mention about people working on 2 campaigns while they're still on public 3 payrolls, not Mr. Delaney. He didn't go on the 4 public payroll. He got off the public payroll. 5 He did take a position as a campaign manager and 6 he did keep the law and he did not break or 7 violate any ethical standards. All of this 8 innuendo is something that is not worthy of the 9 Senate. These are cheap shots. They don't 10 deserve to be made in this chamber. 11 I vote in the affirmative. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 13 recognizes Senator Wright on the nomination. 14 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I 15 rise to second the nomination also of Mr. 16 Delaney, and I reflect that I might, in fact, 17 have a county government bias, having also spent 18 my time managing county government, but I think 19 Commissioner Delaney is going to bring us from 20 that county experience some of the management 21 capabilities that our state agencies so 22 desperately need. He's going to bring us a work 23 ethic that's inherent and necessary to changing 4026 1 the directions of these agencies. 2 He's going to, I believe, 3 epitomize what we've been talking about since 4 January, and that's a smaller, more efficient, 5 more effective state government. 6 We're already seeing it. He 7 takes a very hands-on approach to how he's 8 managing that agency. He's starting to 9 consolidate. He's unified and consolidated 10 administrative positions, taking two and three 11 units and putting them together under one 12 individual. I think those are all steps in the 13 right direction in terms of changing how we're 14 going to govern our state agencies, how they're 15 going to service us in the direction that we're 16 going to take. 17 He's also demonstrated he's 18 willing to make the hard decisions, the tough 19 choices that we all have to face. I think 20 perhaps some of those -- those of us who are 21 serving in this Legislature to learn from Mr. 22 Delaney's choice in making those hard decisions 23 in moving ahead. 4027 1 I think it sets an example for 2 what we expect out of this administration. He 3 brings us credentials to this job. I think the 4 Governor should be recognized in Mr. Delaney for 5 moving ahead in OGS. 6 As a result, I vote aye. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 8 recognizes Senator Gold on the confirmation. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 10 Mr. President, I just want to 11 clear one situation. Senator Velella is a real 12 pro and I don't know whether he's teaching 13 Skelos or Skelos is teaching him; it doesn't 14 matter but it's interesting, whenever there's an 15 issue raised on an individual with specificity 16 dealing with their conduct in another office and 17 the issue of what they will do in office, you 18 people yell and scream about things which have 19 nothing to do with anything and it's all 20 political, and what I think you do is you add 21 credibility to the situation. 22 We, on this side, are in the same 23 position that you have been in the past. 4028 1 There's a Governor who we did not vote for, but 2 who is the Governor, and entitled to that 3 respect, and we have voted time and time again, 4 to confirm people who are ardent Republican 5 operatives, to positions, and they had a right 6 to be ardent Republican operatives, and if 7 they're qualified, they're entitled to that 8 position. 9 Now, the bottom line is that in 10 those few circumstances where there have been 11 problems, the problems have not been of the 12 nature of their campaign involvement, although 13 Senator Leichter has pointed out that, in his 14 opinion, maybe we should change the law, and 15 when Senator Velella says, "Put in a bill", 16 Senator, the bills are in. You people won't put 17 them out. The macho Republicans in this house 18 have such problems with their own ego that they 19 think that if they take a Democratic bill some 20 place, it is somehow diminishing them in the 21 legislative process. I think it's an absurd 22 attitude but you people seem to get your kicks 23 that way. 4029 1 What can I tell you? We certain 2 ly have put them -- the bills in. Senator 3 Leichter has certainly put them in, but the 4 bottom line is that there are nominees today - 5 I cannot believe that Peter Kalikow has not put 6 up significant money for your party and, from my 7 point of view, that's okay. He's qualified for 8 the job, and I don't have a problem supporting 9 him. 10 There have been other people. 11 There's a Mr. Johnson today. I looked at his 12 resume and, from my point of view, I don't think 13 the man's background has been under Democrats. 14 It's been under Republicans, and I find him to 15 be very well qualified, and I have to assume 16 that in his politics, he's worked very, very 17 hard for Republicans. That just isn't the 18 issue. 19 The issues that were raised by 20 Senator Dollinger and and the issues that were 21 raised principally by Senator Leichter deal with 22 their reactions to Mr. Delaney's work in public 23 life, and whether you agree with it or not, they 4030 1 are certainly entitled and, you know, I keep 2 seeing in my own mind a Republican majority in 3 the United States Senate in Washington going 4 through these resumes if they came down from 5 Bill Clinton and these people being destroyed 6 because that's what the junior, whatever he is 7 from New York, would do and that's what some of 8 the others would do and they would say, "Wait, 9 this isn't party politics. We are now the 10 representatives of the people." But you people 11 won't do it because -- what's the expression, 12 lockstep, somebody keeps saying; you're so in 13 lockstep? So if somebody raising an issue with 14 an individual, let's stop the nonsense because 15 -- and accuse those members on our side who 16 raise those issues of playing politics. It has 17 nothing to do with politics. 18 Governor Pataki has offered us 19 some very fine nominees, and those nominees are 20 being congratulated by my side of the aisle as 21 well as your side of the aisle, but we are 22 allowed to have disagreements without this 23 gibberish about the politics, and there were 4031 1 situations on our side -- because I want to tell 2 you something, if you ever opened up the books, 3 which you have been afraid to do for years, we 4 would really find out where the millions and 5 millions of dollars of taxpayer money went down 6 the drain in your campaigns. 7 So, yes, there was a public 8 situation; we all know about it, but I'm 9 prepared to have a public debate and have you 10 open the books for the last seven years. 11 Now, let's stop that. Mr. 12 Delaney comes before us with experience, and you 13 may admire that experience and some other people 14 may question it, and that's all that this debate 15 is really about. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 17 recognizes Senator Spano to close. 18 SENATOR SPANO: Thank you, Mr. 19 President. 20 You know, when you look at Pete 21 Delaney and you try to get a phrase to describe 22 him and you talk to the people in Westchester 23 County who have worked with him and for him and 4032 1 the people he's worked for, they will tell you 2 that he's a guy who just knows how to get things 3 done. 4 And I recognize that he has taken 5 the position as Commissioner of General Services 6 for the state of New York. He's taken a $6,000 7 pay cut, by the way. We still haven't figured 8 out why he wants to do that and come up here and 9 put up with us and take this abuse and make 10 $6,000 less a year, but he's a real brass tacks 11 guy, and if you talk to the county executive of 12 Westchester County, when there came a time when 13 there may have been a problem in Westchester 14 County government, it was Pete Delaney who was 15 dispatched to handle that problem. 16 When the county's premiere 17 entertainment facility, the county center, when 18 things were lacking in terms of a reconstruction 19 of that program, it was Pete Delaney who was 20 sent there and put it together, and he has been 21 credited for his work in moving that 22 entertainment center on track as they underwent 23 some major renovations. 4033 1 To give you an idea of just to 2 what level of detail he'll go to, when they had 3 the opening night and they had Liza Minnelli 4 there, he had everything planned. He had 5 everything in place, including the -- which 6 color M & Ms that Liza Minnelli wanted in her 7 dressing room, and that tells you the level of 8 detail that he goes to. He's a guy who detests 9 the bureaucracy. He hates red tape, who feels 10 that he wants to take the Office of General 11 Services and move it forward and has appointed 12 quality managers to work as members of his team. 13 He has answered the questions 14 that were raised by Senator Leichter with 15 respect to contracts in Westchester County. He 16 answered those questions very well during the 17 Finance hearings. Those are all questions that 18 have been on the public record, have been 19 debated, not only in the county Legislature, but 20 in the newspapers as well, and when you look at 21 all of the record, both his personal record, his 22 work record as a member of a very strong family 23 with roots in Westchester County -- and I - 4034 1 Senator Leichter, while you remainuncomfort 2 able, I am very comfortable in supporting the 3 nomination of Peter Delaney as the office - 4 Commissioner of the Office of General Services, 5 say that I commend the Governor for sending 6 someone to us who understands the system; who 7 has served as a commissioner; who has put 8 together the type of innovative ways to 9 streamline county government and keep our costs 10 down as he has done in Westchester County; and 11 it's my pleasure, in addition to all of that, to 12 call him a friend. 13 Mr. President, I move the 14 nomination. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 question is on the confirmation of Peter W. 17 Delaney of Peekskill as Commissioner of General 18 Services. All those in favor signify by saying 19 aye. 20 (Response of "Aye".) 21 Opposed, nay. 22 (There was no response.) 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President, 4035 1 I would just explain my vote very briefly. 2 After yielding to all these fine people who have 3 said so many good things, I have to say, I just 4 want to make it very clear so there isn't any 5 question, I'm not being critical, just factual. 6 Please don't tell me that the 7 commissioners in the previous administration 8 were not involved in the political process. 9 They were and, as a matter of fact, if they 10 aren't, I suspect there's something -- something 11 wrong. 12 Now, about avoiding the 13 Legislature, Senator, this is an example of one 14 man's floor being another man's ceiling. That's 15 what an old farmer told me up in the Canadian 16 border. In other words, we look at things 17 differently. 18 You can look at it but you kept 19 it out of politics. You had the lease, it could 20 be renewed, but it didn't have to get involved 21 in politics. It was a business venture, and 22 they saved money doing it. 23 And finally, I would only say 4036 1 this, that when we can get a professional such 2 as Peter Delaney as has been stated so well by 3 Senator Spano and all, we are indeed most 4 fortunate. 5 Thank you, Mr. President. 6 SENATOR LACK: Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Lack. 9 SENATOR LACK: I, too, rise to 10 explain my vote, Mr. President. Not only am I 11 happy to vote for Commissioner Delaney this 12 afternoon but, Senator Gold, I want to thank you 13 because you have taught me a political lesson 14 this afternoon, and that is that in my 17 15 sessions here, I realize, not you all but it's 16 we who have made a mistake for these 17 years, 17 and that is all the time that I was here under 18 Governors Carey and Cuomo when all these 19 appointments came through that I thought that we 20 had the responsibility when we, the Senate 21 Majority, the Republicans, put that nominee on 22 the floor to support that nominee and, indeed, 23 we did, and the Governor sent it down. 4037 1 I didn't realize 'til I learned 2 the political lesson you taught me this 3 afternoon that, what I should have been doing 4 for these 17 sessions, as you have, is I should 5 have been playing politics. I should have been 6 standing up and finding every innuendo and twist 7 that I could make with respect to somebody's 8 character and standing up and complaining about 9 it on the floor so I could show that I was in 10 the responsible Minority when there was a 11 Democratic governor. 12 I'm proud, Mr. President, to vote 13 for Commissioner Delaney and I thank Senator 14 Gold for the political lesson I learned. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Gold to explain his vote. 18 SENATOR GOLD: You couldn't leave 19 me alone. I was minding my own business. 20 Senator Lack, the political 21 lesson I'm trying to give you is that we have a 22 responsibility not to the party but to the 23 people, and I'm shocked -- shocked, Senator 4038 1 Lack, to learn from you today that you believe 2 in your recollection that Governor Cuomo was 3 sending us people for appointment with resumes 4 that had federal corruption investigations - 5 and, by the way, this is not Mr. Delaney, I'm 6 sorry -- but federal corruption investigations, 7 partners who are being indicted that they didn't 8 know about, et cetera, et cetera, and you guys 9 just close your eyes to that? Baloney, you 10 closed your eyes to that! You didn't see it, 11 and if you think that your concept of party 12 loyalty means that you have to shut your eyes to 13 questions of corruption and wrongdoing in 14 people's background in public life, then I'm 15 telling you and my political final words to you, 16 Senator Lack, you don't know what you're talking 17 about, and the truth is you wouldn't do it, 18 because I know you and you're an honest, 19 honorable man and if, in fact, those items were 20 in resumes, Senator Lack, you would have been 21 doing what you think is right. 22 And the last thing I'll say is 23 just a reminder, I've told you this before. 4039 1 When I first came to this Senate in the early 2 1600s, Nelson Rockefeller was the governor and I 3 suggested, you know, guys and gals, in the 4 United States Senate, they do confirmations. 5 They take it very seriously. We ought to 6 investigate or whatever, and you fellows and 7 gals at that time said to me, "Don't worry about 8 it. Don't worry about it", and then lo and 9 behold Hugh Carey got elected and some of you 10 came over to me and said, "You know that old 11 idea you had of real investigations? It makes 12 sense." 13 Thank you. I vote maybe. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Mendez to explain her vote. 16 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President, I 17 was not planning to speak on any of the nominees 18 today because I really feel that all of them are 19 highly qualified, but I really want to mention 20 the following: 21 In the case of Mr. Delaney, after 22 intense but fair prosecutorial questions, he 23 answered all those questions dealing with ethics 4040 1 in the most truthful and honest fashion. I am 2 totally convinced that the man is highly 3 qualified for the job and, just for the record, 4 I want to state the following: 5 When asked as to whether or not 6 he had diverted -- has diverted influence of the 7 local board of county executives, he explained 8 the situation very clearly, and that was, number 9 one, originally, he made a lease for a space. 10 Eventually that lease ended up saving money for 11 the county, but what was most fascinating is 12 that at the time after the first five years of 13 the lease, it was, in fact, the board managers 14 who voted to renew it and they did so another 15 five years afterwards. 16 In fact, the papers, the local 17 papers at the time, did comment on it -- they 18 did comment on the excellent job that he had 19 done on that. 20 So that to me, that was a moot 21 question. Everything had been answered 22 properly, and I am -- I do very gladly stand up 23 here to support his nomination and to vote for 4041 1 it. 2 Thank you. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Dollinger to explain his vote. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 6 President, I just have to comment on the 7 colloquy between Senator Lack and Senator Gold 8 in explaining my vote. 9 I come to this chamber not as a 10 member of the Finance Committee. I didn't 11 participate in the interview of Mr. Delaney. 12 I'm trying to go on the best available 13 information that I can get from my colleagues, 14 and I'm disappointed that we don't have the 15 approach that Senator Gold talked about. 16 I don't know why we wouldn't have 17 a hearing not just on Mr. Delaney -- I've said 18 this before with respect to other nominees, some 19 of which I voted for, some of which I voted 20 against -- in which the issue of judgment which 21 is my particular issue in this case, where that 22 could be explored at length, where there could 23 be witnesses, such as the chairman of the 4042 1 Westchester County Legislature at the time. We 2 could quiz him on his view of Mr. Delaney's 3 actions today as to whether they were 4 appropriate then. We could find out from the 5 developers what the deal looked like. We would 6 get a lot of additional information, put a bunch 7 of people under oath; have a little fact finding 8 to find out what the truth was, then I would be 9 making a much more informed judgment. 10 However, here today exercising my 11 constitutional prerogatives, based on the 12 information available to me, I still have some 13 questions about Mr. Delaney's judgment in this 14 particular case with respect to whether or not 15 he circumvented the legislative power. That's 16 what disturbs me most. I think it ought to 17 disturb everybody in this chamber. 18 Everyone in here complains about 19 those regulators who get out of control because 20 we give them a little bit of power and then they 21 eventually go out and use the power to do 22 something we don't like. That seems to be the 23 same pattern that could be present in this 4043 1 nominee and perhaps the evidence in Westchester 2 County is that, on one prior occasion, he did 3 so. So every time you lecture me about the 4 regulators or the agencies being out of control, 5 this may be one of the ways that it starts. 6 I will be voting in the negative, 7 Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Leichter to explain his vote. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 11 I want to apologize to Senator Mendez. 12 Senator, I want to apologize to 13 you because I was sitting next to you in Finance 14 and I must have rattled the paper so hard and 15 you probably didn't hear Mr. Delaney's answer. 16 The fact is that the lease for 17 this building was never approved by the county 18 Legislature. It was entered into as a 20-year 19 lease in the guise of five years which did not 20 need approval and the -- that was in 1951 or 21 1952. The renewals do have to be approved but 22 they've never come before the county Legislature 23 because the five years aren't up. 4044 1 But for all of the reasons that I 2 stated and Senator Dollinger stated and also for 3 the reasons Senator Mendez has stated, Mr. 4 President, would you please vote me in the 5 negative. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 nominee, Peter W. Delaney, is confirmed as the 8 Commissioner of General Services. 9 We're very pleased to have 10 Commissioner Delaney and his wife Mary with us 11 here in the chamber. 12 Commissioner, good luck. 13 (Applause.) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 Secretary will read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 17 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 18 following nomination: Robert L. King, of 19 Pittsford, Director of Regulatory and Management 20 Assistance. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 22 recognizes Senator Stafford. 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr. 4045 1 President. 2 I would just like to say again 3 today that we have before us five of the finest 4 nominees that you could have. I've been here 5 awhile. I was here before Senator Gold. I 6 assure you that I have never seen better 7 nominees than we have coming before us today, 8 Robert King who we are considering at the 9 moment, but John Johnson, I -- and Ambassador 10 Gargano and Peter Kalikow and Peter Delaney we 11 just confirmed. 12 I think the Governor is to be 13 commended. This bodes well for the state. We 14 have professionals, and on the gentleman that 15 we're considering right at this moment, he comes 16 here so well recommended. He had a fine career 17 in the Legislature. He's been a county 18 executive, that will all be explained, but he 19 has a responsibility and he intends on carrying 20 it out and making a real difference in this 21 state. 22 And with that, for a more 23 articulate delivery, I would yield to Senator 4046 1 Nozzolio. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 3 recognizes Senator Nozzolio on the confirmation. 4 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 5 President, and thank you, Senator Stafford. 6 Senator, I can never improve on 7 your articulation, but I certainly am pleased to 8 stand before my colleagues and discuss the 9 appointment of the Director for Regulatory and 10 Management Assistance. 11 Certainly, I have a great deal of 12 praise for the Governor for making this appoint 13 ment. From a very personal standpoint, I think 14 that Bob King has demonstrated through his years 15 of service and government to be one of the 16 finest public servants anyone could ever hope to 17 be. 18 Ten years ago I was serving in 19 the New York State Assembly, and working with a 20 couple of my good friends and colleagues who 21 have gone on to other endeavors, then 22 Assemblyman Bill Paxon and Assemblyman Dick 23 Wesley, Bill now a Congressman and Dick now a 4047 1 member of the Appellate Division of the Supreme 2 Court, the three of us went to Rochester to 3 encourage another young aggressive type to seek 4 office and run for the New York State Assembly, 5 and that young man was Bob King. 6 We were extremely impressed then, 7 continue to be impressed with Bob's thorough 8 ness. It was a tough sell to get him to run for 9 state office, but after he decided in weighing 10 the situation that he could best throw his 11 energies into what was happening at the state 12 level and we are very pleased that he did. 13 After throwing his hat in the 14 ring and being elected to the New York State 15 Assembly, he served with great distinction and 16 honor in that body, worked very hard on a number 17 of economic and other reform issues to make 18 government work again. Bob was, I believe, more 19 than any of us in that house, one who looked to 20 channel a new direction to state government. 21 He decided in 1991 to seek the 22 office of County Executive of Monroe County. 23 That was a difficult task and Monroe was faced 4048 1 with many problems, and Bob decided to pursue 2 that position and the voters of Monroe County 3 graced him with the office of County Executive 4 of Monroe, and there Bob continued his efforts 5 to reform government at all levels. 6 He became nationally recognized 7 as a county executive who cared and who moved 8 for change, who not only talked about change but 9 was pursuing change through the revolution at 10 the local government level of making government 11 more responsive and providing a new direction 12 for the way our governments in New York were 13 headed. 14 This effort was certainly 15 recognized by a number of people statewide and 16 nationally, and one of those individuals who 17 recognized Bob's talents very early on and who 18 encouraged him to leave the county executive 19 office, which I have often said is a loss to 20 Monroe County, but nonetheless, a gain to the 21 state of New York, in the selection of Bob King 22 as director in this new capacity of regulatory 23 reform. 4049 1 Bob has already, prior to 2 confirmation, crisscrossed the state, met with 3 business leaders, met with government leaders in 4 trying to unshackle the shackles that we have 5 seen placed on government and on business and on 6 those units of state government that have 7 heretofore not been equal partners as we would 8 like them to be. 9 Bob has set a course already to 10 make business and to make government a partner 11 again with the state of New York and he is to be 12 applauded for that effort and congratulated for 13 that effort. 14 Mr. President, I could go on. 15 There are others who wish to speak on this 16 nomination, but I can say very sincerely as one 17 who has stood with Bob King in our days in the 18 crucible in the New York State Assembly, 19 generating many ideas for government reform, now 20 Bob King has a great opportunity to put many of 21 those concepts into action as he already has 22 demonstrated. 23 It is with great pride and a 4050 1 tremendous privilege to move Bob King's 2 nomination for Director for Regulatory and 3 Management Assistance. 4 Thank you, Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 6 recognizes Senator Rath on the confirmation. 7 SENATOR RATH: Mr. President and 8 my colleagues, I rise also to second the 9 nomination of Bob King as the Director of 10 Regulatory Reform in New York State. This is 11 getting to be a habit, Bob. Every week there 12 are two or three meetings where we meet and I'm 13 seconding the nomination and I'm getting very 14 used to this. I think this may be my last 15 opportunity, but it's not the last that we're 16 going to see of each other because of what you 17 do, we'll be doing, and what I will continue to 18 do with the Administrative Regulations Review 19 Commission. 20 Let me start my remarks by giving 21 you a quote of one of our more famous people 22 today, Bob King and he said, quote, "I told the 23 Governor I would measure my success by how many 4051 1 new jobs are becoming available in New York 2 State as a result of our efforts." 3 I don't think I have to explain 4 that, but let me just paraphrase it a little 5 bit. The documentation of how "constricting" - 6 that's a Bob King word -- and "intrusive", 7 another Bob King word, regulations have become 8 on the businesses of the state of New York, it 9 is legion, the information that has been 10 developed in the quick three months that Bob 11 King has been here and in office for only two 12 and a half months, maybe, his efforts to date 13 have uncovered some of the examples that we have 14 been looking for, the clear-cut messages that we 15 need to send back to business to tell them this 16 isn't reasonable. You are having intrusive and 17 constricting regulations. Tie your hands from 18 expanding your business or maintaining, indeed, 19 your business in New York State. 20 Those of you in the Finance 21 Committee heard the wonderful one -- the 22 wonderful example today about the bakery 23 regulations when Bob talked about that and what 4052 1 a simple solution came about or is in the 2 process of coming about brought to my mind the 3 fact that New York State regulatory reform 4 headed up by Bob King at the request of Governor 5 Pataki and supported by all the members of this 6 house in one form or another, is the right place 7 at the right time. It is a national agenda 8 item. It's on the agenda of every state that 9 has business interests at heart and we in New 10 York State are going to be on the cutting edge 11 of how to translate federal policy to the state 12 and back to the businesses who so much need our 13 help. 14 Let me give you a number. New 15 York State now employs 1800 people in regulatory 16 jobs, just 48, however, in the offices that help 17 citizens and businesses deal with regulators. 18 I think we have to talk about 19 that, Bob. I think that's something both you 20 and I are very interested in as well as the 21 reform of the State Administrative Procedures 22 Act, another item that is in desperate need of 23 reform. 4053 1 And again, let me give you 2 another Bob King quote. I love this one. This 3 one just came off the Rochester Times Union. 4 You may be one of the more quotable people in 5 this government, Bob. Quote -- and here's one 6 -- Senator LaValle is not here. There is some 7 other Long Island types that will appreciate 8 this one. Quote, "if you live on the south side 9 of Long Island and you own property, at the end 10 of the winter, often the sand will blow up on to 11 your porches. Well, the Department of 12 Environmental Conservation now requires that you 13 get a permit to return the sand to the beach." 14 How dumb is that? Well, 15 obviously that's pretty dumb and that's one I'm 16 going to quote over and over again, Bob, because 17 I think that's the kind of thing we're bringing 18 to light and it's the kind of relief people all 19 around New York State need. This is one that 20 the home owners will be very gratified if they 21 don't have to go down and get a permit in order 22 to sweep their porches and get those sand dunes 23 out in front of their cottage, instead of in 4054 1 front of their front door. 2 As I close my remarks, let me say 3 first of all how delighted I am that the 4 Governor has appointed you with your kind of 5 experience in the New York State Assembly, your 6 experience in western New York, because we do 7 count Monroe County as western New York, and as 8 a county executive, and because as a county 9 legislator I know how tough the regulations are 10 that counties have to deal with and you know 11 that firsthand having been a county executive, 12 and government very often acts like some 13 extraterrestrial power, not an institution that 14 exists to serve us. The bureaucracy almost 15 never deals with real life problems in a way 16 that reflect an understanding of the situation. 17 We seem to have achieved the 18 worst of both worlds, a system of regulation 19 that goes too far while it does too little. 20 Hail to our new chief of 21 Regulatory Affairs. Good luck and Godspeed on 22 what will be a wonderful adventure. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 4055 1 recognizes Senator Jones on the confirmation. 2 SENATOR JONES: I rise today for 3 two reasons: First of all, to let you know when 4 someone good comes along, even a Democrat 5 recognizes it and also to speak about Bob King. 6 Even though we come from opposite 7 sides of the aisle, you know, I can't help but 8 stand and let you know that I recognize that Bob 9 King definetly did a lot for Monroe County. 10 He identified early on that a 11 healthy business climate is healthy for a 12 community and he worked very hard at fostering 13 that and making sure that business did grow in 14 Monroe County and they were recognized as being 15 important to the community. 16 He certainly has spent a lot of 17 time talking about mandates and over-regulation 18 and fees, so I think he's the perfect person to 19 handle this kind of job at the state level and 20 bring some of the expertise and some of the 21 things he did in Monroe County so the rest of 22 the state can benefit from him. 23 I think if you hear TQM forever 4056 1 and ever in Monroe County, it will always be 2 synonymous with the name Bob King, and I also 3 have to add, Bob, just as an aside, Bob is 4 probably the only elected official who got stuck 5 with a serious deficit as happened this year in 6 government, and I will be honest and tell you it 7 was by someone on my side, even though I wasn't 8 involved, and he not only was able to pay it 9 off, he convinced the community that they were 10 dying to be taxed to help him do it. 11 So there aren't many public 12 officials, Bob, that could pull that off like 13 you did, and I give you a lot of credit for 14 that. 15 I also liked what he said today 16 about Workmen's Comp'. We all know that that's 17 one of the biggest regulations that are going to 18 have to be looked at and dealt with and Bob made 19 it very clear that he intends to include not 20 only business and government but labor as well 21 in this debate while we try to come up with a 22 system that not only helps business but also 23 helps the people that are in most need of the 4057 1 Workmen's Comp' themselves. 2 So I just want to stand today and 3 commend the Governor for choosing Bob. I agree 4 with Senator Nozzolio. It is a loss to Monroe 5 County, and I will share with you what I said 6 today at Finance. If you had any doubt about 7 the good judgment Bob has, just look at the fact 8 that he's here and not back in Monroe County 9 facing the $5 million deficit we're about to 10 send him. 11 So I just want to say good luck, 12 Bob, and I know you'll do a good job. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Dollinger on the confirmation. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 16 President, I rise in support of this nominee. 17 I guess I would add as evidence 18 of Mr. King's good judgment, he's not down here 19 on the floor not getting paid. He's instead 20 going to be paid in his position as the 21 regulatory policeman for New York State so that 22 may be further evidence of his good judgment. 23 I'll be blunt with everybody 4058 1 here. I've never voted for Bob King before. 2 Bob ran for county executive. I strongly 3 supported his opponent in the losing effort 4 against Bob King. I was on the county 5 Legislature when Bob was the county executive. 6 I did my best as I've tried at times in this 7 chamber to give everyone a little bit of agita. 8 I tried to give Bob a little bit of it as well. 9 However, through all of that, I 10 have recognized Bob's intelligence and Bob's 11 skills, and I think he brings those skills. He 12 certainly brings a knowledge of government and 13 significantly not only government generally in 14 New York State, but the relationship between 15 elected officials and the bureaucracy and the 16 importance of that. I think Bob King knows 17 that, understands it, understands how it works 18 and I think that's important. 19 I would conclude, however, one of 20 my concerns for Bob is that, in this environment 21 in which everybody is pledging to cut the 22 regulatory power of state agencies, I'm fearful 23 that we had a bill before that would give, as 4059 1 you know, the counselor to the Governor, the 2 Governor's counsel, the ability to review all 3 the regulations which would seem to cut Mr. King 4 out of the equation. 5 I hope we will have the good 6 sense to reconsider that bill and perhaps pass a 7 two-house bill that vests the entire regulatory 8 authority in a single person. That way we would 9 have a system in which one person will be 10 responsible. 11 Again, at this point I'm relying 12 on my colleague, Senator Jones, who said that 13 Mr. King was willing to be judged by how many 14 new jobs he brings to New York State. I think 15 that's a laudable goal. What I would hate to 16 have happen is have several people try to 17 control the regulatory environment, have divided 18 responsibility and if new jobs didn't appear, 19 then have Mr. King be blamed when it would 20 actually be several people rather than his 21 efforts. 22 So I think we need to give him 23 clear direction. I think this Governor has 4060 1 given him clear direction. My hope is we will 2 give him equally clear direction, that the bill 3 that we talked about for regulatory reform, we 4 will rethink and we will give him the power that 5 he needs to make these changes. 6 But don't make any doubt about 7 it. Bob King has been a good public servant 8 and, Bob, I'm now batting 500 because, though I 9 voted against you once before, I'm voting with 10 you today. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Libous on the confirmation. 13 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr. 14 President. 15 I don't know, after hearing 16 Senator Dollinger's comments, I may reconsider 17 my vote here, but I can't do that. 18 Mr. President, I too rise to 19 support the nomination of Bob King. I can 20 honestly say that I don't know Bob King as well 21 as maybe some of the other members of this 22 chamber, but I have had the pleasure of knowing 23 him in my time in the Senate while he served as 4061 1 an Assemblyman, but I'll tell you a story that 2 comes to mind. 3 A couple years ago a group of us 4 went to Rochester and Bob had just taken over as 5 the county executive and a friend of mine was 6 with the newspaper and we had some time to chat 7 a little bit. This friend of mine I know is 8 probably not someone who is a very strong 9 Republican, probably very much on the other side 10 of the aisle. I asked him "How is the county 11 executive doing? " And he said, "I like Bob 12 King's approach. He brings a balanced 13 approach. He's willing to listen to people and 14 he's actually moving things along so that we can 15 get things done. We've had some tough times in 16 this county." 17 I think he brings that same 18 approach to this position and, Bob, I can say 19 that, if you can help to untangle this spider 20 web of bureaucracy and regulation that has 21 hampered business for the last 20 years, then I 22 think we will honor you in another way at some 23 time down the road. 4062 1 But, Mr. President, it is 2 certainly a pleasure for me to stand before this 3 body and to second the nomination of Mr. King. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Leibell on the confirmation. 6 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr. 7 President, if I could just briefly comment. 8 After all these other speakers, I 9 also would like to lend my support. Probably 10 like a couple of other members in this chamber, 11 I have had the good fortune and honor to serve 12 with Bob King in the other house, in the state 13 Assembly, and I can tell you those years we 14 served there together, it was certainly for me a 15 great pleasure. 16 I know I can tell you with 100 17 degrees of certainty that Bob will bring to this 18 position all the dedication and zeal that can be 19 imagined. He was in our conference and in the 20 Assembly, a great leader. He spoke out on tough 21 issues during very difficulty times. 22 I've heard Bob speak a number of 23 times about TQM and quality management. Well, I 4063 1 think Bob will be the quality that will be 2 brought to TQM in New York State government. 3 I'm very pleased to support my 4 old friend and colleague. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Wright on the confirmation. 7 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. 9 I, too, rise to support the 10 nominee. If Senator Dollinger was still in the 11 room, I would assure him that, if Bob King were 12 on this floor, he'd be calling for less 13 spending, less taxes and a budget on time, and 14 it's the kind of individuals like Bob King that 15 we're missing sometimes. 16 As the sponsor of the legislation 17 that created ORMA, the Office of Regulatory 18 Management Assistance, I'm very pleased to have 19 Bob King serve as the head of that office. I 20 think he brings the necessary background and 21 experience that we're looking for to head that 22 office. 23 He understands the business 4064 1 community. He has demonstrated his ability to 2 work successfully with the business community, 3 but he has also demonstrated his understanding 4 of public trust and public responsibilities and 5 he's blended that very well in achieving the 6 balances that are necessary to successfully 7 manage county government, to successfully meet 8 the needs of the business community and the 9 people of Monroe County. 10 I think Bob King brings us the 11 kind of background and experience necessary to 12 ensure the balance that's so essential to 13 bringing regulatory reform to this state. I 14 applaud the Governor in his nomination. I'm 15 very pleased to see Bob King seek and receive 16 this office. 17 Thank you. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 DeFrancisco on the confirmation. 20 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I rise to 21 speak on behalf of the nominee. I believe that 22 we have here a situation that, I think, few of 23 us would have taken up. 4065 1 Bob King, a very dedicated, 2 bright and articulate county executive of Monroe 3 County was asked to come into this administra 4 tion and do probably one of the most difficult 5 jobs that is in the administration, get through 6 the morass of regulations and try to make this a 7 more user-friendly state. He still has a bright 8 political future but was willing to sacrifice 9 that because he's a true believer in what has to 10 be done in the state, and there's not many of us 11 here, I think, that would have taken that step, 12 and we've got to congratulate the Governor on 13 making this nomination and, more importantly, 14 the nominee in being willing to sacrifice 15 himself for the good of this state and sacrifice 16 his political career for the good of all of us, 17 because it's so important that we have more true 18 believers in this state in what is needed to 19 turn the direction of this state to the 20 direction it should have been for the last 20 21 years. 22 Those are the reasons I'm voting 23 to support Mr. King, but I learned of three 4066 1 other reasons on the floor today; 2 Reason number one, Senator 3 Dollinger voted against him for his last 4 election; 5 Reason Number two, Senator 6 Dollinger supported the other candidate against 7 Bob King, and; 8 Thirdly, as a county legislator, 9 Senator Dollinger tried to give Bob King agita 10 as he's given many of us, so we can truly, truly 11 feel very close to Bob King because we've all 12 experienced that same agita on this floor every 13 day of every session. 14 So I congratulate the Governor 15 and wish Bob King the greatest success. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Johnson, on the confirmation. 18 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 19 I spent a few years as many of you know as 20 chairman of the Environmental Conservation 21 Committee in this house, trying to get some 22 sanity in environmental regulations without much 23 success. 4067 1 Mr. President, it's kind of 2 interesting, I have in my hand a letter from a 3 vice-president of Environmental Affairs, Inter 4 national Paper Company, by the name of Thomas C. 5 Jorling. He just testified that he has become 6 aware that there are too many regulations and 7 the massive statutory authorization has been 8 enacted, the ream of implementing regulations 9 that have been promulgated, extensive and 10 elaborate guidance has been issued and judicial 11 decisions have been interpreted extensively, all 12 of this in a cyclical pattern, media by media, 13 we reach a point where the complexity is so 14 great the understanding exceeds the capacity of 15 a human mind, on and on and on, so he would like 16 to test the theory, being a vice-president of 17 International Paper, that you can have rational 18 regulation and economic process that do go hand 19 in hand. 20 It's wonderful and enlightening 21 on the part of Commissioner -- former 22 Commissioner Jorling. I think if he were here 23 and a convert now, we wouldn't need Bob King 4068 1 but, of course, we do need Bob King because all 2 the regulatory impediments that have been out 3 there and established and enshrined for years 4 and somebody's got to dig into it and throw it 5 out. That isn't necessary. You take away those 6 things which impede progress and don't provide 7 any environmental protection. 8 I'm very happy that Bob King is 9 in the position he is, and I can just testify 10 that the problem we had dealing with bakeries 11 that existed for a year and a half or more which 12 I couldn't resolve with the previous 13 administration and their commissioner, is on 14 it's way to being resolved by the action of Bob 15 King, and that's only one thing he's done. 16 There are a lot of other regulations. 17 Mr. President, I would just like 18 to say that Bob King is going to have to lead us 19 into a new era of rationality and regulation and 20 progress and economy of our state, and I very 21 wholeheartedly support his nomination. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Maziarz to close debate on the confirmation. 4069 1 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr. 2 President. 3 I, too, rise in support of the 4 nomination of Bob King for the Director of 5 Regulatory Management Assistance. 6 For the first 12 weeks of this 7 year, Mr. President, I had the occasion to spend 8 an awful lot of time in western Monroe County 9 talking to business leaders, town supervisors, 10 elected officials, school district personnel, 11 and one name that continually came up in 12 conversation and always spoken about with a high 13 degree of respect and administration was the 14 name of their county executive, Bob King. 15 I believe firmly that the Govern 16 or has make an absolutely great appointment in 17 Bob King. When I was campaigning, I stopped at 18 a small business in the down of Gates in Monroe 19 County and I asked the gentleman there how busi 20 ness was, and he said, "Business is profitable 21 until I get my Workers' Comp' bill every 22 quarter", and I know that Bob King has a great 23 task ahead of him and, although I don't know Bob 4070 1 personally, haven't known him personally for a 2 very long time, everyone that I talked to, par 3 ticularly one person that I hold in the highest 4 degree of respect, my predecessor John Daly, 5 once told me that 20 years from now when people 6 are going to be reviewing the Pataki administra 7 tion and Pataki appointments, the best appoint 8 ment that the Governor makes, aside from his 9 Commissioner of Transportation, would be Bob 10 King as the Director of Regulatory and Manage 11 ment Assistance. 12 Mr. President, I move the 13 nomination of Bob King. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 question is on the confirmation of Robert L. 16 King, of Pittsford, New York, as Director of 17 Regulatory and Management Assistance. All those 18 in favor signify by saying aye. 19 (Response of "Aye".) 20 Opposed, nay. 21 (There was no response.) 22 The confirmation -- the 23 nomination is confirmed. 4071 1 We're happy to be joined by 2 Robert King. Bob, it's nice to have you here. 3 Good luck. 4 (Applause.) 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Skelos. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 8 Leichter. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. May I 10 have unanimous consent? I want to be recorded 11 on a vote and ask just 15-20 seconds just to 12 explain why I'm doing it. I want to be recorded 13 on the negative on a confirmation we did 14 earlier, Mr. Gargano, for the Port Authority, 15 because it came to my attention after the vote 16 that Mr. Gargano, to qualify for this position, 17 changed his registration or registered in New 18 York City on March 27 of this year, seemingly 19 from what we would call a "voter's residence," 20 not his true residence which just on a 21 confirmation a month ago he had told us was Dix 22 Hills. I question the bona fides of what he did 23 and whether he is really qualified under the 4072 1 statute for this position. 2 Therefore, I ask to be voted in 3 the negative. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 5 record will so reflect, Senator Leichter. 6 Senator Skelos. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, could - 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I want to 9 follow Senator Leichter and also be recorded in 10 the negative. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Without 12 objection. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Dollinger, the record will reflect that you 15 would have voted in the negative or you voted in 16 the negative on the confirmation of Charles 17 Gargano. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, thank 19 you, Mr. President. My views on that candidate 20 are well-known. 21 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President. 22 As you know, Mr. President, the Finance 23 Committee -- when Mr. Gargano's credentials were 4073 1 presented, that he indicated clearly on the 2 credentials that there was an address in New 3 York City as well as an address in Suffolk 4 County. Do you know that, Mr. President? 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you very 6 much, Senator. 7 Can we proceed to the 8 noncontroversial calendar. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will call the noncontroversial calendar. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Oh, I'm sorry, 12 Mr. President, one minute. 13 Senator Volker? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 15 recognizes Senator Volker. 16 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President. 17 I would like to call a meeting of the Codes 18 Committee as soon as possible in Room 332, the 19 conference room down the hall. 332, meeting of 20 the Codes Committee. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 22 will be an immediate meeting of the Codes 23 Committee in the Majority Conference Room, Room 4074 1 332. 2 Senator Skelos. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 4 Can we take up the noncontroversial calendar? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6 will read the noncontroversial calendar. 7 THE SECRETARY: On page number 9, 8 Calendar 122, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 429, 9 an act in relation to authorizing the 10 Commissioner of Transportation and others to 11 develop and implement a unified statewide 12 system. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 14 last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 16 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll.) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4075 1 165, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 2496, an 2 act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in 3 relation to and for the purpose of enabling the 4 Dormitory Authority to construct and finance 5 dormitories. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 7 last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll.) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 15 is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 184, by Senator Velella, Senate Print - 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 20 bill aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 193, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 1847, an 23 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in 4076 1 relation to providing an exemption for capital 2 construction costs. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4 will read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 12 is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 214, by Senator LaValle. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 17 bill aside. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 236, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 1851, an 20 act to amend the Penal Law and the Criminal 21 Procedure Law, in relation to forgery and 22 illegal possession of vehicle identification 23 numbers. 4077 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for 2 the day. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 4 bill aside for the day. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 237, by Member of the Assembly Eve, Assembly 7 Print 2659, an act to amend the Civil Practice 8 Law and Rules, in relation to the personal 9 property exempt from application to the 10 satisfaction of money judgments. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 14 act shall take effect on the first day of 15 September. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll.) 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 20 the results. 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58, nays 1. 22 Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 4078 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 259, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 2244, an 4 act to amend the Correction Law, in relation to 5 limiting time allowances for good behavior for 6 sexual offender. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for 8 the day. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 10 bill aside for the day. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 287, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 3441, an act 13 to allow police officers of the Town of 14 Saugerties to be covered under the provisions of 15 Section 384(d) of the Retirement and Social 16 Security Law. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 19 home rule message at the desk. Lay the bill 20 aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 304, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 380, an act 23 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 4079 1 relation to making it a felony to operate a 2 school bus while under the influence of alcohol 3 or drugs. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 7 act shall take effect on the first day of 8 November. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Skelos, that completes the noncontroversial 17 calendar. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 19 Could we proceed to the controversial calendar. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 21 will read. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 184, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 2704A, an 4080 1 act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation 2 to disclosure of confidential HIV-related 3 information. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Velella, an explanation has been asked for by 7 Senator Paterson on Calendar Number 184. 8 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, this 9 bill is one which has received a great deal of 10 publicity. It's a bill which I'm sponsoring 11 along with Assemblywoman Mayersohn over in the 12 Assembly, and it's become known as the "Baby 13 AIDS Bill." 14 Basically, what it does is, under 15 current law, every baby that's born in New York 16 State is tested for the presence of the AIDS 17 antibody. The results of those tests are 18 blinded. That means that nobody finds out who 19 the individual was. What this bill, in essence, 20 will do is say that when that test is taken by 21 the state, the results are given to the Health 22 Department and the mother or caregiver for that 23 child is notified if there is a positive 4081 1 result. 2 There are various reasons which I 3 am sure many of you will ask during the course 4 of the debate on this bill. I don't want to 5 prolong the introduction to it. Very simply, 6 that is the essence of the bill, to let the 7 parent or the prime caregiver know the result of 8 the test. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Paterson. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 12 President. This is an extremely controversial 13 issue. The sponsors of bill, both Senator 14 Velella and Assemblywoman Mayersohn, the sponsor 15 in the Assembly -- although this is not the 16 exact bill -- have worked very hard on this 17 particular issue. They have been quite forth 18 coming about information. We had a conference 19 about this bill, some of the members of the 20 Minority, and we were happy to have Senator 21 Velella's counsel in that meeting along with 22 representatives from Senator Goodman's office. 23 Senator Marcellino on his third day in the 4082 1 Senate came himself, and it was really a 2 revolutionary concept, one that just came to 3 me. 4 In discussing this bill, there 5 are a number of correlative issues; and, 6 therefore, Mr. President, would Senator Velella 7 be willing to yield for a few questions. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Velella, do you yield to Senator Paterson? 10 SENATOR VELELLA: Certainly. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Senator yields. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 14 Velella, my first question is, just generally, 15 what will the disclosure impact fee be of this 16 particular bill? There are about 1800 cases of 17 women who tested positive at the birth of their 18 children; and as a result of a mandatory 19 testing, what number do you think that may rise 20 to. 21 SENATOR VELELLA: I couldn't 22 project what the number might be, Senator, but 23 the result would be, I believe, that we would 4083 1 have an excellent chance of prolonging the lives 2 of some young newborns, providing some services 3 for them so that their life would be a little 4 bit more comfortable, and possibly keeping them 5 alive long enough to the point where we might 6 find some kind of cure to deal with their 7 affliction. That's what I think would be the 8 ultimate result. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 10 much, Senator Velella. 11 Mr. President, through you, 12 Senator Velella. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Velella, do you continue to yield? 15 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 Senator continues to yield. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: I notice in 19 this year's budget that there is no increase in 20 the general funding for treating the AIDS 21 disease, the HIV virus and some of the ancillary 22 diseases and medical care problems that are 23 caused by it. So if there is a significant 4084 1 increase, I am just suggesting that the 2 disclosure does not relate to the prevention or 3 to the treatment; and so what I'm just asking 4 you is how do you propose that we can increase 5 the treatment when we may not have the 6 resources? 7 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, the 8 best response I can give to you -- and I would 9 assume that you are talking about the budget 10 that the Governor and the Senate have put into 11 place, because I don't know of any other budget 12 that's around town that we might be looking at, 13 so I would have to take a look at our budget; 14 and I would say that the earlier detection would 15 allow us to do things like put those young 16 people who have been identified on drugs that 17 will be strong antibiotics to prevent the 18 pneumonias that cause the serious problems and 19 complications that in the long run cost us a lot 20 more money to administer. Once the disease has 21 manifested itself and once it has certainly 22 become evident in the child, the expenses are 23 much higher. 4085 1 So that we would be able to 2 identify these young people early on in their 3 stage before they develop the pneumonias, before 4 they develop all the afflictions that come along 5 with the disease and prevent a lot of the 6 expense, so it probably would save money if we 7 passed this bill. It should be, at worst, cost 8 neutral or slightly expensive, but I think in 9 the long run it will save us money because of 10 the high cost of administering to all the needs 11 of these young people when they get the 12 full-blown AIDS virus. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 14 Senator Velella, I am maintaining decorum here 15 but I don't know how you can say that we would 16 ever save money when you admit that what we're 17 doing is we're prolonging a virus. Let's be 18 clear on one point, Senator. If we prolong the 19 virus, we are incurring greater expenses 20 because, even when we prolong life, those heavy 21 costs, as you mentioned, that come toward the 22 end of life in treating the AIDS disease are 23 still there; and so the prolonging of life is 4086 1 not in any way going to decrease the expense. 2 The only way we could decrease 3 the expense, Senator, would be if we could 4 actually find a cure to the disease. 5 So what I'm -- I'm asking if you 6 are in support of additions to the budget to 7 fund what would be really a great task on the 8 part of our society to undertake this? 9 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, maybe 10 my explanation to you wasn't clear. What I'm 11 trying to say is that by early identification 12 and by treatments with antibiotics, strong anti 13 biotics, we prevent a lot of the pneumonias that 14 develop. Those pneumonias will develop if we 15 didn't know that the child had the AIDS virus, 16 that the child had the disease, and would cost a 17 substantial amount of money to treat those 18 maladies that would fall upon them without the 19 necessary antibiotic treatment. 20 By early identification, giving 21 that antibiotic treatment, we will be able to 22 prevent a lot of the expensive illness that 23 develops around AIDS. Absolutely the ultimate 4087 1 point, the final point, where the terminal facet 2 of the illness takes place, would be revenue 3 neutral, but certainly we would be able to 4 eliminate a lot of the expensive medical 5 attention that's necessary if we could prevent 6 some of these pneumonias which cause 7 complications. 8 If you had attended, and I don't 9 know if you did, some of the press conferences 10 that we held with some of these young people who 11 did not know they had AIDS, came home from the 12 hospital with their parent or with a legal 13 guardian or foster parent and found out only 14 after the pneumonias took place and after they 15 were in the hospital, you would see the 16 deformities and the maladies that befell them 17 that cost a lot of money to administer to. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Would Senator 19 Velella continue to yield? 20 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 continues to yield. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Now, Senator, 4088 1 point of clarification. The federal standard 2 through the CDC, as far as I understand it, is 3 that you don't start treating the infant with 4 Bactrim until after they receive the -- until 5 after they receive -- until after they have 6 actually gotten pneumonia. 7 SENATOR VELELLA: My 8 understanding -- and, again, I would stand 9 corrected if you have some medical information, 10 but my information is that one of the reasons 11 why you want to identify the presence of the 12 antibody early on or as early as possible after 13 birth -- and I might add in my explanation, my 14 bill addresses after the child is born. This 15 does not address something I think is needed in 16 this state, something we may see before the end 17 of this session, testing upon the finding out 18 that a woman is pregnant. That would be 19 something that I believe we might address later 20 on. But I believe that you will find that the 21 three reasons, and I cited this last year when 22 we discussed the Tully bill at that time, was 23 the possibility of reinfection through breast 4089 1 feeding by the mother, the need for a change in 2 inoculation schedule because of the weakened 3 condition of the child and its immune system, 4 and the third reason was the introduction and 5 treatment with antibiotics to prevent 6 pneumonias. Now, that I have gotten from many 7 medical sources, and I would assume that some 8 medical sources might differ, but I have gotten 9 that from some very reliable sources. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Paterson. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I 13 have here a portion of the federal clinical 14 practice guidelines for the treatment of HIV and 15 it says that the treating -- the treatment for 16 pneumocystis (PCP) pneumonia begins after the 17 baby has already contracted pneumonia, and the 18 reason that that is the case, Senator - 19 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, would 20 you yield to a question? You don't treat 21 something -- you don't treat something until 22 it's occurred, but there is a prevention mode 23 that is used. There is a difference between 4090 1 prevention and treatment once the thing is 2 diagnosed. You are talking about treatment. I 3 agree, you don't treat something until it 4 manifests itself. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Velella, I didn't hear the question, but - 7 SENATOR VELELLA: Is that 8 correct? 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Is that 10 correct? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Paterson, you have the floor. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Let me put it 14 this way, Senator. No. 15 In other words, I don't believe 16 it is correct, and let me explain to you why 17 this is the case. Fifteen to twenty-five 18 percent of the babies that are born testing 19 positive for the HIV virus sero convert. They 20 are born with the antibodies of the mother and 21 they inevitably develop their own immune 22 systems. So one of the real problems here - 23 and I'm not -- I'm not saying this either to 4091 1 advocate or to oppose your legislation. We are 2 just talking about facts here. 3 I'm saying this to point out that 4 just the result of the test leading to a 5 positive definition does not necessarily mean 6 that the infant is going to contract AIDS 7 through the HIV virus, so the reason that the 8 CDC has a federal standard for when to introduce 9 Bactrim is not as a prevention. It's really as 10 something that takes place when there is some 11 physical evidence that the virus is taking 12 effect. Now, as you know, there is a test in 13 which women who are in the sixth and seventh 14 month of pregnancy are being treated with AZT, 15 and this apparently is a preventive measure 16 because fewer babies are born testing positive 17 after that. 18 But the actual test, the one that 19 is advocated for in this bill, does not 20 necessarily tell us what the future is going to 21 lie for that particular newborn; and the danger 22 is -- from the past few years, is that there was 23 a time when we started treating newborns 4092 1 instantly with AZT, not Bactrim; and what we 2 really did was we destroyed the developing 3 immune systems in those babies, and those babies 4 succumbed. So, in other words, to just get a 5 positive test and then start treating the baby 6 with Bactrim is not necessarily a preventative 7 measure. It is, in fact, something that could 8 actually exacerbate the problem, and so that's 9 why I would answer your question, "No," not to 10 say the Bactrim can be very effective after the 11 baby has contracted pneumonia but that, at least 12 in the time period that we are discussing, it is 13 somewhat dangerous to start creating this type 14 of treatment before we really know that there is 15 a problem. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Stavisky, if Senator Paterson is through. 18 Senator Paterson, are you 19 through? 20 SENATOR STAVISKY: Will Senator 21 Velella yield to a question? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Stavisky, just a minute. 4093 1 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, Senator. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Stavisky. Senator Stavisky. I may have cut 4 Senator Paterson off unintentionally. 5 SENATOR STAVISKY: I'm sorry. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Paterson. 8 SENATOR STAVISKY: I would rise 9 for the purpose of asking Senator Paterson if he 10 would yield. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 Senator yields. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 15 I know a lot of people want to speak on this 16 bill, and certainly nobody is going to be cut 17 off, but perhaps we can have a list established 18 so that it's known by the members, so some won't 19 wonder why somebody was called before me or 20 after me. So if members wish to speak, so we 21 can also manage the process today, if they could 22 indicate to the President that they do want to 23 speak, he will establish a list and we can move 4094 1 forward on the bill. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Paterson had the floor, Senator Stavisky. I 4 thought he was done. That's why I recognized 5 you because you are next on the list. 6 Senator Paterson. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 8 President. I just want to make sure, if Senator 9 Stavisky was beginning his questioning, I would 10 ask him to let me complete mine; but if it was 11 just a point on this particular issue that 12 anybody would like to raise, I would certainly 13 welcome it. 14 Senator Velella, if you would 15 continue to yield? 16 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, I yield. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 yields, Senator Paterson. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: One of the 20 hospitals in my district, Harlem Hospital, 21 Senator Stavisky, has been gradually having beds 22 decertified; and what I'm asking is would there 23 be a reregistration of beds, in other words, to 4095 1 increase the number of beds being used by the 2 hospital as a result of this crisis in which 56 3 percent of the victims, the mothers who are 4 giving birth to newborns and then testing HIV 5 positive, these individuals? What I'm worried 6 about preliminarily to even our discussion as to 7 the treatments which we've been discussing is 8 whether or not there is going to be additional 9 care for these individuals? 10 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, with 11 all due respect, and you know I do hold you in a 12 lot of personal high respect, I think that's 13 kind of a silly question to ask me. 14 What we're talking about here is 15 identifying something that's in a child that's 16 born. If we close our eyes, it's not going away 17 we're going to have to deal with that problem 18 today or tomorrow. You know, it's the old 19 question of pay me now or pay me later. 20 What I'm saying to you is the 21 earlier we detect it, the earlier we deal with 22 it, the better we are. So what I'm trying to 23 say is whatever beds are out there, whatever 4096 1 dollars are out there, they are going to be out 2 there. We will have to marshal our assets to 3 deal with the problem as it develops the best we 4 can, but, certainly, it's inexcusable to close 5 our eyes to the problem and say, "We don't need 6 more beds, we don't need more money, because the 7 problem doesn't exist. We can't identify these 8 kids; we can't give them the treatment anyway. 9 We will have to marshal our 10 assets, make them work wherever we can, and do 11 the best we can. But not knowing is the worst 12 excuse. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 14 Senator. 15 Mr. President. I don't know if 16 this is a silly question, but haven't we closed 17 our eyes to the mothers? I don't see anything 18 in this legislation that would treat the mothers 19 now that they have tested positive for the HIV 20 virus. 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, I 22 guess we might have a difference of opinion 23 there. I think we're doing a tremendous service 4097 1 to the mother when we let her know the realities 2 of what her condition is, what she might be 3 spreading to a child, what she might be 4 spreading to a person that she lives with, what 5 she might be spreading to another child that's 6 home that hadn't been infected. I think there 7 is a tremendous amount of advantage that we're 8 giving to that mother, letting her know her 9 condition and maybe we just might save a child 10 along the way. 11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Padavan, why do you rise? 14 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator 15 Paterson yield for a question? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Paterson, do you yield to Senator Padavan? 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Without a 19 doubt. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 yields without a doubt. 22 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, are 23 you aware of the fact that for statistical 4098 1 purposes babies are already tested for HIV? 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, I am, Mr. 3 President. 4 SENATOR PADAVAN: Are you also 5 aware that in many cases the baby if breast fed 6 will be more likely to be susceptible to HIV 7 manifesting itself in a very serious problem as 8 opposed if they are not breast fed? Are you 9 aware of that connection? 10 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm aware of 11 the connection between breast feeding and 12 contracting the HIV virus, yes, I am, Senator. 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Now, therefore, 14 my question, Senator, and this is the end of it, 15 does it not make sense for that mother to be 16 notified of the result of the test, and I 17 understand there's about 1800 or maybe even more 18 than that annually in New York City alone, 19 irrespective of the number because, frankly, if 20 it's even one, it's important. But does it not 21 make sense to advise that mother so that at 22 least that one precaution would be taken? We 23 would say to her that, in effect, "We strongly 4099 1 suggest to you, based on this test data, that 2 you not breast feed your child. It may mean the 3 difference between life and death of the baby. 4 Doesn't that make sense? 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 6 unfortunately, I don't think that's actually 7 what happens in these particular situations. 8 The determination, Senator Padavan, of whether 9 or not the mother is going to breast feed can 10 not come as a result of a test, if you 11 understand me. It has to come as a result of 12 counseling. 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President. 14 Will the Senator yield just for clarification? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Paterson, do you yield to Senator Padavan? 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Absolutely. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 yields. 20 SENATOR PADAVAN: If the law does 21 not require that the issue of HIV testing of the 22 mother is such that we mandate this 23 communication, then the counseling, which I have 4100 1 no problem with -- I think there ought to be 2 extensive counseling, but we're talking here 3 about the mandate of identifying the 4 circumstance. If we don't first deal with the 5 mandate, then the things that follow -- in this 6 case, the breast feeding -- I think is very, 7 very critical. 8 I don't take quarrel with many of 9 the things you said previously, but I think it's 10 intrinsic to the initiative here that we in the 11 course of mandating that parent be notified 12 about a half a dozen other serious problems that 13 are identified in the maternity ward if they 14 should occur, many that were adopted by this 15 Legislature over a period of years, and we would 16 be adding one more, that if the mother is so 17 notified along with a statement of fact, "You 18 should not breast feed because you compound the 19 problem, place the child's life in danger." One 20 must follow the other. You can't have one 21 without the other. Isn't that true? 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 23 President. I will look at you, but Senator 4101 1 Padavan should know that I'm thinking of him. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Paterson, excuse me just a minute. 4 Senator Mendez, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR MENDEZ: Will Senator 6 Paterson yield for a question? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Paterson, do you yield to Senator Mendez? 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, but I 10 have to answer Senator Padavan first. I have a 11 list. 12 (Laughter.) 13 Mr. President. I think the point 14 at which Senator Padavan and I are missing each 15 other is that the test itself takes two or three 16 weeks to finalize a determination of whether the 17 mother is HIV positive. If the mother is not 18 breast feeding -- if she's not breast feeding, 19 she can't start two or three weeks into the life 20 of the newborn. If she is already breast 21 feeding, then she has been breast feeding this 22 child for two or three weeks, and there is no 23 relevant medical data, Senator Padavan, that 4102 1 there will be any change based on continued 2 breast feeding, although we can assume and it 3 would be correct for her to stop breast feeding. 4 So what I'm saying is that this 5 bill is talking about the testing of newborns. 6 Now, if we had a bill talking about testing of 7 women while they were pregnant, that would be a 8 different story. But this bill is relating to 9 the testing of newborns. 10 And so I'm submitting, Mr. 11 President, that the issue of breast feeding is 12 really not a related issue in this particular 13 case other than the fact that Senator Padavan is 14 in favor of the counseling prenatally to 15 encourage high-risk women that they should not 16 breast feed because breast feeding is a way in 17 which the virus is transferred from the mother 18 to the child, and that is actually our current 19 policy. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Now, 21 Senator Paterson, do you yield to Senator 22 Mendez? 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, without 4103 1 a doubt. If I yielded to Senator Padavan, I 2 would have to yield to Senator Mendez. 3 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you. 4 Thank you. I know, Senator Paterson, that all 5 your life you have been fighting, like many 6 American citizens do throughout our democracy - 7 you have been fighting to eliminate double 8 standards; right? So, in 1983, when the issue 9 came forth pertaining to people receiving blood 10 transfusions, and many individuals, 11 unfortunately, did in fact -- were infected with 12 HIV, with the HIV virus, through transmission, 13 the issue became a very controversial one, but, 14 eventually, the need to know whether or not you, 15 an adult, that has received a blood transfusion 16 that contained the HIV virus was resolved by 17 letting that adult know. Do you think that in 18 the case of babies born with the mother's 19 antibody and 10 or 25 percent of them with the 20 HI-Virus that this baby should be treated 21 differently? They should receive a double 22 standard -- should apply to them a double 23 standard? 4104 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 2 President. It's not that the 10 to 15 to 25 3 percent of the babies are born with the HIV 4 virus. It's that a significantly higher number 5 of them test positive when they are born, but 6 they all don't have the HIV virus. So that's 7 the difference between this test and one of 8 blood transfusions in 1983. In other words, 9 what I'm saying is, what I think we're missing 10 here is some of the same treatments that we're 11 using for the HIV virus -- and this is why I 12 think we have some polls out where everyone is 13 saying that they're for this, but what everyone 14 is really saying is that we're for the 15 protection of babies. That isn't just 80 16 percent - 17 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator 18 Paterson. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Paterson, do you continue to yield to Senator 21 Mendez? 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr. 23 President. 4105 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 continues to yield. 3 SENATOR MENDEZ: Getting back to 4 double standards, Senator Paterson, doctors in 5 New York State, do advise the lover of an 6 individual found to be infected with HIV. The 7 doctors are allowed, in fact, they must, in New 8 York State to alert the lover of a person that 9 was found to be infected with HIV. Why can't 10 the mother of a child that was born either with 11 the mother's serum or with the HIV virus, why 12 shouldn't that mother be told? Is it one 13 standard for adults and another standard for 14 babies? 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 16 President. First of all, doctors advise that. 17 That is not mandated. There is no standard for 18 adults. There is no mandated disclosure of an 19 HIV test as it stands right now. So even if it 20 was the case, it wouldn't be a double standard; 21 it wouldn't be inconsistent with what we're 22 doing now. 23 Now, as far as the babies are 4106 1 concerned when we are really testing -- when 2 we're testing the newborns is we're testing the 3 mother. We are really not testing the baby 4 because we don't know whether or not the baby is 5 infected with the HIV virus. We know that there 6 is a possibility that the baby is infected with 7 the HIV virus if, in fact, the mother has the 8 HIV virus. 9 Now, to just continue the point 10 where I was just a moment ago, before Senator 11 Mendez wanted to ask me another question. 12 SENATOR MENDEZ: Will the Senator 13 yield for one more question? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Will you 15 yield, Senator Paterson, for one last question 16 from Senator Mendez? 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr. 18 President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 yields. 21 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, 22 Senator Paterson. Do you know, Senator 23 Paterson, that there is in New York State 4107 1 mandatory testing of both parents and infants 2 with notification for the Tay-Sachs disease and 3 for sickle cell anemia? Did you know that? 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. There 5 are actually seven diseases where they're 6 mandatory testing. 7 SENATOR MENDEZ: For these two 8 diseases, for these two illnesses, parents and 9 babies are mandated to be tested, and they are 10 mandated to receive the results of those tests. 11 Why in the world couldn't the 12 results of a baby's test that is being conducted 13 at the present time, why should those results 14 not be given to the mother? 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 16 President. Senator Mendez named two of the 17 diseases that are - 18 SENATOR MENDEZ: There are 19 seven. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, and there 21 are actually seven; and in those cases, there is 22 a mandatory requirement that there be 23 notification. So the question is why would the 4108 1 same health departments that have allowed for 2 there to be mandatory revelation of those tests 3 suddenly oppose it with the HIV virus? And it 4 goes back to a point that I was starting to take 5 up with Senator Velella, and so I wish that he 6 would be free to join in at this point, and 7 Senator Mendez, if she would like. 8 SENATOR VELELLA: Mr. President, 9 I'm free. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 11 you, Senator Velella, for informing us of that. 12 Senator Paterson, Senator Velella 13 says he free. 14 You may continue, Senator 15 Paterson. You have the floor. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: The issue that 17 I'm rising is effective intervention. That is 18 what I was talking about when I was saying we 19 have polls now that show that 80 percent of the 20 population is actually in favor of mandatory 21 testing and the results of informed consent - 22 you know, the passing of that information. 23 What I'm saying is, and it's 4109 1 tragic to stand here and say this, and I think 2 it's something that we're all feeling the pain 3 of is that we don't have an effective 4 intervention; and in the case of newborns, we 5 did intervene. We treated babies years ago with 6 AZT, and those babies succumbed. Those babies 7 died because we didn't know at the time that we 8 were treating an immunodepressant virus with an 9 immune suppressant drug. 10 And what I'm saying is that AZT 11 exacerbates the virus. There is no one on this 12 planet that's been treated with AZT for a period 13 of four years that hasn't suffered significant 14 dismantling of their immune systems. Now, in 15 the cases of newborns, they have started to use 16 Bactrim, which is really a drug that does not 17 have any real history. We don't know what the 18 effect of it is. 19 What we're doing today in some 20 respects -- it doesn't matter whether we pass 21 this bill or we don't pass this bill, but we are 22 institutionalizing a treatment that has failed. 23 Any doctor will tell you that. That's why a 4110 1 significant number of medical associations are 2 opposing this bill today. That's the point that 3 we're actually missing. 4 If we had a cure, there would be 5 no question. I would vote for this bill. We 6 wouldn't be having this debate, but we don't 7 have a cure; and when Senator Velella said a few 8 moments ago that maybe one of the babies will be 9 cured, there is no cure. Nobody knows one. 10 But what we have -- and this goes 11 for children and adults -- is the systematized 12 treating of the HIV virus with drugs such as 13 AZT, DDI, and DDC, which only exacerbate the 14 virus. They prolong life, but they actually 15 attack the immune system at a greater rate; in 16 other words, there are more people who 17 experience sudden death with the drugs that 18 treat the HIV virus than actually succumb on a 19 long-term basis. It's just that the average of 20 people who are treated with the drugs live 21 longer, and that is positive in the sense that 22 we can extend life. 23 But when you have a situation as 4111 1 you have with newborns, where they originally 2 test positive but they sero convert, 65, 70, 75 3 percent of them, in the first eighteen months of 4 their lives, what you now have is a situation 5 where if we start treating the babies at birth 6 and we don't know whether or not they're going 7 to get the virus, we're going to kill them. 8 That's what it really comes down to. 9 Now, we're not doing this by 10 intent. Everybody here is trying to accomplish 11 the same thing, but it has been a perpetuation 12 of misinformation that, in my opinion, Mr. 13 President, has caused us as a society to take so 14 long to really start to try to find the cures, 15 and this is a mistake we - 16 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator yield? 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Excuse me? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Paterson. Senator Velella, why do you rise? 20 SENATOR VELELLA: Would Senator 21 Patterson yield? 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Absolutely. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4112 1 Paterson yields, Senator Velella. 2 SENATOR VELELLA: Where in this 3 bill do you see any requirement that a positive 4 hit or positive test on a newborn infant 5 requires administering of AZT? 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, not at 7 all. None. 8 SENATOR VELELLA: Okay. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: In fact, I'm 10 saying that's what we used to do, but I'm 11 saying - 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, Senator, 13 would it not be wise, if you'd yield to another 14 question -- Senator yield to another question? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Paterson, do you yield to another question from 17 Senator Velella? 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr. 19 President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 Senator yields. 22 SENATOR VELELLA: Would you agree 23 with me, Senator, that the medical decision of 4113 1 the treatment of a positively identified child 2 would be best left to the medical societies and 3 the medical professionals than to this 4 legislative body to try and mandate any kind of 5 medical treatment, but yet identifying them so 6 that the medical community can deal with the 7 problem with the best available technology would 8 be the smartest thing to do? 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 10 President. First of all, the overwhelming 11 number of the medical societies oppose this 12 bill. 13 SENATOR VELELLA: Point of 14 order. Let's state the truth. Let's not 15 misstate it. 16 There is no -- there is no memo 17 from the New York State Medical Society opposing 18 this bill. There was a memo last year 19 supporting Senator Tully's bill but not opposing 20 our bill. I have seen none. I spoke to the 21 Medical Society yesterday. They have taken no 22 position on this bill. They do support the 23 Tully bill. They do not oppose this bill. 4114 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 2 President. I stand corrected if I said the New 3 York County Medical Society. 4 SENATOR VELELLA: Upstate. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: I didn't say 6 any medical society. 7 SENATOR VELELLA: Oh. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: I just said I 9 felt that the majority of them oppose this 10 bill. But, Senator Velella, you are correct. 11 There is no mandated treatment as a result of 12 the passage of this bill. 13 In fact, there is no care at all 14 that is necessarily prescribed in this 15 particular bill, and what I'm trying to point 16 out to you is that the determination, that 17 moment in time that exists when we test, that 18 result, what I'm saying is if it were an adult, 19 it would be one thing. It's very clear about 20 what happens to the mother, but the HIV 21 positive/negative rating of the child is 22 something that is an inertia inherent. It is 23 not static. And I'm just saying that an 4115 1 immediate treatment upon the diagnosis could be 2 a very harmful thing. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Maltese, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President. 6 Would the Senator yield for a question? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Paterson, do you yield to Senator Maltese? 9 SENATOR PATERSON: As a matter of 10 fact, Mr. President, I would like you to record 11 at the desk that I am permanently available for 12 questions. Somehow I thought this was Senator 13 Velella's bill, but I will - 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: A very 15 popular guy today. 16 Senator Maltese, Senator Paterson 17 yields. 18 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President. 19 Was it Senator Paterson's position that since 20 there was a lengthy period of time between the 21 time of the baby's birth and the time of the 22 diagnosis that, therefore, it was futile to 23 inform the mother that since she would have 4116 1 already -- that since that time was lengthy and 2 she would have already started breast feeding 3 that there was no benefit to the child to advise 4 the mother of the results of this test? 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 6 Maltese, what I was just saying is by the time 7 the test results are in, the best feeding is now 8 into its third week and so the test is actually 9 late. 10 And, again, in answering your 11 question, I'm not giving on that particular 12 answer any suggestion to you as to which way to 13 vote on this bill. I'm just pointing out to you 14 that if, let's say, the bill had asked for 15 babies to -- I mean for the mothers to be tested 16 during their pregnancy, that would be a little 17 different. If a mother tests positive at five 18 months, for instance, then you can start 19 treating her with AZT which has been very 20 effective. These kinds of drugs are very 21 effective in short-term, extremely dangerous 22 medical situations, and so, yes, it would be. 23 But this bill addresses newborns, 4117 1 and I'm just saying, Senator Maltese, that we're 2 into our third week of breast feeding before we 3 find out that result. 4 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President. 5 I yield to Senator Paterson's obvious knowledge 6 of this bill, the treatment, and other medical 7 situations connected with this bill, but I am 8 advised that there are treatments, and one is 9 called PCR that is a test -- I'm sorry, not 10 treatments, but a test that the results can be 11 provided within days or hours. 12 In addition, I am advised that 13 right now the reason that some of the tests take 14 such an inordinate period of time is because 15 there is no reason for speed since the mother is 16 not advised at any rate; but that if there was a 17 rationale behind expediting the tests, the test 18 would be made much more expeditiously and 19 possibly be more helpful to the child. 20 So my question, Senator Paterson, 21 is that if a test can be made expeditiously and 22 if the result of that test can be given to the 23 mother and if the mother then can make an 4118 1 informed decision as to whether to breast feed 2 the child and if, further, that if the further 3 breast feeding of that child would harm or 4 increase the risk to that child, would you then 5 support this bill? If that can be shown to you, 6 that chain of facts can be shown to you, would 7 you then support this bill on the theory that 8 you would save some lives and you would lengthen 9 possibly the lives of other infants until a more 10 effective cure can be found? 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 12 to Senator Maltese. My point of view on this 13 bill does not turn on this particular issue. I 14 was just pointing this out to you as a matter of 15 what I thought was fact. 16 Now, the ELISA test has to come 17 first even if the PCR test -- the one that 18 you're talking to, which is a biomolecular test, 19 that comes later. The PCR test to which you 20 were referring is an extremely expensive test, 21 Senator Maltese, and to conduct it is going to 22 really involve a vast expenditure of money, and 23 that was why earlier in the questioning I asked 4119 1 Senator Velella about the care. My concern, 2 Senator Maltese, is that we will now have a way 3 of identifying who has HIV; and as a result of 4 identifying these individuals, we can cause 5 problems, abandoned babies, for instance, when 6 the mothers know that the babies are born 7 positive for the HIV virus, a number of problems 8 that would inure based on the fact that you are 9 taking people and making them find out that they 10 have a disease that may be actually incurable. 11 But in answer to your - 12 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Just quickly 14 in answer to your question, if we could -- if we 15 could actually effect that, Senator Maltese, I 16 think that would be a good thing, to get the 17 test so we have the test a couple of days ahead; 18 and you are absolutely right, that would 19 increase the opportunity of survival because you 20 have now increased the time that it takes the 21 mother. 22 But just one last point. Any 23 woman who is in any risk situation, long before 4120 1 any test, is advised not to breast feed. 2 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President, 3 through you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Maltese, excuse me just a minute. 6 Senator Skelos, why do you rise? 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Perhaps when 8 Senator Maltese and Senator Paterson finish, at 9 that time -- and this is in consultation with 10 the Minority -- I understand that we have the 11 rare occasion of Senator Dollinger offering up 12 an amendment; that we should take up that 13 amendment and debate the amendment and perhaps 14 the bill at the same time since they are inter 15 related, if there is no objection. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: If the 17 Majority Leader chooses, Mr. President, let me 18 yield at this time and let Senator Dollinger put 19 in his amendment. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The chair 21 would note that there are at this point seven 22 speakers who have indicated that they would like 23 to speak on this bill, and Senator Dollinger is 4121 1 at the end of that list, but with the consent of 2 the Minority and the Majority Leader, we will 3 recognize Senator Dollinger at this point for 4 the purpose of offering an amendment. 5 Senator Dollinger. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 7 also, if we could, on behalf of Senator 8 Stafford, there will be an immediate meeting of 9 the Finance Committee in Room 332 of the Capitol 10 followed by a meeting of the Rules Committee. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 12 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules 13 Committee in the Majority conference room, Room 14 332, to be followed by a Rules Committee 15 meeting. 16 Senator Dollinger, for the 17 purpose of offering up an amendment. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 19 Mr. President, and I want to thank my colleagues 20 for allowing me to do this out of line, the 21 Deputy Majority Leader as well as the Deputy 22 Minority Leader. 23 Mr. President. I believe there 4122 1 is an amendment at the desk. I ask that it be 2 called up. I waive its reading and ask for an 3 opportunity to make an explanation. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Dollinger, the amendment is at the desk. The 6 reading of it is waived, and you are provided 7 the opportunity at this time to explain the 8 amendment. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 10 President. This amendment is the supposed 11 Tully-Silver bill that was done last year, I 12 believe unanimously approved in this house. 13 This bill differs from the bill that is before 14 the house today. 15 Strike that, then. I thought it 16 was unanimously approved in this house, but I 17 may be mistaken. Let me just explain the bill. 18 The purpose of this bill is to 19 require mandatory counseling of all women before 20 they deliver their child. I would commend -- in 21 the context of this amendment, let me commend 22 Senator Velella, Assemblywoman Mayersohn and 23 others who brought this issue to the fore. 4123 1 I think this is not only one of 2 the most interesting issues, but is a 3 fascinating discussion of science, a fascinating 4 discussion of public policy in the context of 5 science, and one that certainly is worthy of 6 debate. 7 But let me emphasize the benefit 8 of this bill for every woman in the State of New 9 York. A lot of the discussion that has gone on 10 previously with Senator Paterson, Senator 11 Mendez, Senator Maltese and Senator Velella, has 12 all dealt on the issue of what happens after the 13 child is born. The wisdom of this bill is that 14 this bill turns our attention and turns the 15 attention of the people of this state to the 16 most critical time when we can actually stop the 17 transmission of this disease, when we can stop 18 it, and the way to stop it is to identify women 19 who are HIV positive. 20 This bill would require mandatory 21 counseling to inform them of the benefits of HIV 22 testing and to tell them if they take the test 23 and find out that they are HIV positive, we have 4124 1 something that can substantially reduce the 2 incidence of HIV being passed to your child, and 3 it's called AZT. It can be taken during the 4 period of pregnancy, and the evidence is 5 dramatic. It reduces the rate of infection from 6 approximately 25 percent of women who pass it on 7 to their children to approximately 8 percent of 8 women who pass it onto their children. 9 Seventeen percent of the women in 10 this state who would pass HIV on to their 11 children will find that they don't do it because 12 they took the test before they delivered and 13 because they took AZT during the period of their 14 pregnancy. That holds the greatest promise for 15 reducing the transmission of this infection. 16 What this bill does is this bill 17 says it will be the policy of this state to 18 require that women get counseling to take the 19 test, take the test when it really matters, when 20 we can stop the prevention -- when we can stop 21 the spread of the disease. 22 One of the issues that Senator 23 Paterson spoke about is how do we deal with the 4125 1 issue of breast feeding? What could happen is a 2 child could be born to an HIV positive mother. 3 The test results would come back three weeks 4 later and advise the mother that the child has 5 the antibodies. In three-quarters of the cases, 6 that child will not develop HIV. In one-quarter 7 of the cases, they will. But the great danger 8 is, and I acknowledge this is a danger -- is 9 that during the breast feeding period, there is 10 some medical evidence that suggests that a 11 mother could pass HIV from her own system into 12 that of her child by breast feeding. 13 But what's the one way we can 14 tell a woman not to breast feed her child, do 15 not do it at all? Test her while she's 16 pregnant. 17 If you test her while she's 18 pregnant and it turns out she is HIV positive, 19 then what we have to do is simply say to her, 20 "Listen, when your child is born -- when your 21 child is born, take AZT." That will reduce the 22 chance of passing the infection to 8 percent. 23 Then what we do is to simply say to her, "We are 4126 1 going to advise you that if you breast feed your 2 child, you could increase the incidence from 8 3 percent to some unknown number," which ideally 4 medical knowledge will tell us - 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 6 me, Senator Dollinger. Senator Marcellino, why 7 do you rise? 8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I would ask, 9 Mr. President, if Senator will yield for a 10 question? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Dollinger, do you yield for a question? 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: In a moment, 14 Mr. President. I will just finish explaining 15 the other details of bill. I will be glad -- I 16 believe there are others. Senator Velella has 17 that look of a question about him. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 will yield in a moment. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator Gold 21 does, as well. 22 Let me tell you what this bill 23 also does. Not only does it require that there 4127 1 be counseling, not only does it require that 2 medical care be given to the provider -- medical 3 information be given to the provider as well as 4 the mother so there would be complete disclosure 5 of information prior to the test once the woman 6 decided to take the test. 7 It also requires that a pregnant 8 or postpartum woman receiving HIV-related 9 counseling be presented with a form for 10 signature and that of a health care provider 11 acknowledging receipt of the required 12 counseling. 13 It would direct the Commissioner 14 of Health to engage in a series of services to 15 help with the problem of HIV-positive children, 16 and I think it sets up a series of additional 17 protections to monitor the system and find out 18 how well it performs. 19 This was a bill that in my 20 recollection passed this house unanimously as an 21 indication of the sentiments of this chamber 22 about how to deal with the problem. I don't 23 know that anything about HIV has changed in the 4128 1 last eight months that dictates we would 2 suddenly do a reversal of form and instead go to 3 mandatory testing after birth rather than 4 mandatory counseling before birth. 5 I will now respond to Senator 6 Marcellino's question. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Marcellino, Senator now yields. 9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 10 President. I would like a clarification of 11 exactly what this amendment would do to this 12 particular bill. Would it eliminate the 13 provisions of this particular situation and 14 substitute the previous one? 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, the 16 purpose of the amendment, through you, Mr. 17 President, is to take the current bill on the 18 floor and to substitute in toto the bill that we 19 approved last year and strike out the remaining 20 portions of the bill that is on the table -- on 21 the floor today. 22 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 4129 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Gold, why do you rise? 3 SENATOR GOLD: I was going to ask 4 the gentleman to yield. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Dollinger, do you yield to Senator Gold? 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll be glad 8 to yield to Senator Gold. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 yields. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Dollinger, 12 if I understand it, just so I get it right, your 13 bill is one which gets in there early, tries to 14 give counseling, encouragement, et cetera, et 15 cetera, but the testing is basically voluntary. 16 Is that correct? 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's 18 correct. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Dollinger, 20 if you will yield to one more question. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. 22 SENATOR GOLD: You asked what 23 changed from last year to this year. Isn't it a 4130 1 fact that the one thing that changed is that 2 last year we couldn't get the Mayersohn-Velella 3 bill on the floor, and this year we've got it? 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 5 President, through you to Senator Gold. I don't 6 know. I don't know. I know that we had this 7 bill on the floor, and we voted on this bill, 8 and I don't know why the Mayersohn-Velella bill 9 wasn't on the floor last year, although, 10 frankly, with the sponsor here, I don't know why 11 it wasn't on the floor. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, if you 13 will yield to a question. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Dollinger? 16 SENATOR GOLD: My recollection - 17 and I could be wrong, but my recollection is 18 that there were many of us, including me, who 19 believe that as a minimum the Mayersohn-Velella 20 bill should be on the floor, entitled to a 21 hearing. There was a lot of negotiating back 22 and forth, and I believe that Senator Tully, who 23 had a bill which mirrors your amendment, was 4131 1 able to bring his bill out; and I know from my 2 point of view -- I may have even made these 3 remarks on the floor -- while I would have 4 preferred to vote for the Mayersohn-Velella 5 bill, if we're not going to take that up and 6 we're not going to do it, I wasn't going to vote 7 against this bill or your amendment because it 8 was a program that might help and might save 9 lives. 10 But I'm just saying to you that 11 it seems to me -- and you tell me if I'm wrong 12 -- there is a substantial difference between 13 last year and this year in that this year we 14 have the chance, if there are 31 votes, to pass 15 the Mayersohn-Velella, Velella-Mayersohn bill. 16 That is, it seems to me, a major difference. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is that - 18 SENATOR GOLD: Forget the 19 question. When it is my chance, I would like to 20 speak. 21 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Maltese, why do you rise? 4132 1 SENATOR MALTESE: Would the 2 Senator yield for a question? 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, I will, 4 Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 yields. 7 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President, 8 through you. I have listened as Senator 9 Paterson has given us a fairly extensive and 10 apparently very knowledgeable exposition of the 11 detrimental effect of AZT, and now you have 12 risen and indicated that one of the benefits of 13 the counseling incorporated within the confines 14 of your bill is that you would be able to 15 administer AZT much earlier and that it has very 16 beneficial effects. 17 My question, Mr. President, is 18 has Senator Dollinger's medical experts 19 consulted with Senator Paterson's medical 20 experts and have they come to a conclusion as to 21 the efficacy of AZT? 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 23 President. Just in response to Senator Maltese, 4133 1 I believe that the experts are right in both 2 cases, because what I believe the experts I was 3 talking about is as a result of a study in which 4 pregnant women took AZT in the last trimester of 5 their pregnancy and what they found was that the 6 transmission from mother to child, the rate of 7 transmission, dropped from 25 percent to about 8 8 percent. 9 What I believe Senator Paterson 10 is making reference to is once the child is born 11 and once the child begins to be treated with AZT 12 as a child that that affects -- and I won't 13 speak for Senator Paterson, but my recollection 14 of what he said was that when you treat the 15 child with AZT, it has an effect on the immune 16 system. 17 I think that in this instance, 18 the predelivery treatment of the mother with AZT 19 has a very significant impact on reducing 20 transmission. The postpartum treatment of the 21 child, I believe -- and I will let Senator 22 Paterson speak for himself -- I believe that the 23 evidence is that that does have a potentially 4134 1 compromising effect on the immune system. But I 2 don't know that. I'll leave Senator Paterson 3 with his science. 4 But I believe in this instance, 5 in direct response to your question, the science 6 is correct in both instances. 7 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President, 8 then, through you. Your bill, like Senator 9 Velella's bill, does not mandate or even 10 recommend any course of treatment, AZT or any 11 other course of treatment. It simply indicates 12 that there are opportunities for this course of 13 treatment that would be enhanced for prenatal 14 attention by virtue of enacting your bill? 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Correct, Mr. 16 President. What this bill says is that if you 17 really want to stop transmission -- and, believe 18 me, Senator Velella, Assemblywoman Mayersohn, I 19 think have done this state a tremendous service 20 by bringing this issue up and by proposing a 21 solution. We may disagree, but I don't for a 22 second -- even though I'm making this proposed 23 substitution, I don't want to infer or have 4135 1 anyone suggest that Senator Velella, 2 Assemblywoman Mayersohn, and the people who 3 support this bill, aren't concerned about the 4 transmission problem, because I hear it loud and 5 clear that they are. 6 But the issue becomes how do you 7 stop transmission, and I believe the science 8 says that the best way to do that, to stop 9 transmission -- the issue of dealing with the 10 child who has this disease after birth is 11 another issue. But to reduce the transmission, 12 I believe the science is on the nose and 13 suggests that if you have the test earlier, if 14 you create mandatory counseling that says: You 15 have exposed yourself to potentially high risk. 16 You ought to have this test because if you have 17 it now, you can actually prevent the 18 transmission. You can take AZT which reduces 19 the incidence, and then we will tell you -- we 20 will tell you not to breast feed the child so 21 that we don't back our way into the disease 22 after birth, which is the other danger. 23 That's why I think this bill, as 4136 1 far as mandatory counseling before delivery, is 2 a better approach. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 4 me, Senator Dollinger. 5 Senator Rath, why do you rise? 6 SENATOR RATH: Will Senator 7 Dollinger yield for a question. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll be glad 9 to, Mr. President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 yields to Senator Rath. 12 SENATOR RATH: Yes, through you, 13 Mr. President. Senator Dollinger, you just 14 indicated that when someone had been a high 15 risk, had led let's say a high-risk kind of 16 lifestyle, that with counseling it would be 17 recommended that they should take this test. 18 But I think if we go back to a year ago, it was 19 late and it was at night, and there were two 20 bills that were being talked about. The 21 finances of being able to do both bills was one 22 of the questions at that time; and although 23 finances were talked about very early on in the 4137 1 debate today, no one has talked lately about 2 whether we would be able to afford both bills if 3 both bills should pass; and it's my recollection 4 that last year nothing passed because it wasn't 5 decided as to where the money would be best 6 spent, whether it would be best spent in 7 counseling someone who might indeed decide not 8 to take the test even though they admitted to a 9 high-risk lifestyle or whether the money should 10 go to the Mayersohn-Velella effort for the 11 testing. Can you answer the question as to 12 whether there have been dollar attachments to 13 the amendment or if you are aware as to where 14 the emphasis might go dollarswise. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. Through 16 you, Mr. President. I raised the issue in the 17 Senate Health Committee and have had discussions 18 with Senator Hannon's staff. I should also 19 commend Senator Hannon because he's been very 20 forthright in the debate over this bill and 21 providing information about it. 22 What happened, it's my 23 understanding -- and I'll preface everything by 4138 1 saying this is my understanding -- there was 2 $5 million in the state budget for prenatal 3 services. That money was originally designed 4 under the prior version of the Velella-Mayersohn 5 bill. The language in the Public Health Law - 6 I believe it's the Public Health Law -- was 7 changed. What it originally said was that the 8 $5 million goes for mandatory counseling for 9 counseling before birth and also for treatment 10 after birth. 11 In the first version of this 12 bill, the mandatory counseling provision was 13 struck out and only provided that the $5 million 14 could be used for services after birth. My 15 understanding now in the revised edition and the 16 current amendment which is before the floor is 17 that that deletion of a portion of the $5 18 million for mandatory counseling has now been 19 eliminated. We fall back to the current 20 language in law which says it can be either used 21 for counseling or for postpartum treatment. 22 And, again, I think it's a good 23 addition to this bill. I think it's the right 4139 1 thing to do. 2 But the second issue is where is 3 the $5 million? In my consultation with Senator 4 Hannon's staff, they said that the $5 million 5 has already been spent. It is already 6 encumbered under the state budget, and my 7 understanding, further, is that there is no 8 reappropriation. In the current draft of the 9 budget that sits approved by this house, there 10 is no reappropriation of $5 million for those 11 particular services. 12 Now, I see Senator Velella 13 looking around. I can easily stand corrected, 14 but my understanding is there is no additional 15 $5 million. 16 The second consideration about 17 finances is who is going to pay for the test? 18 My understanding is -- through Senator Hannon's 19 staff is that the federal government currently 20 pays for the cost of the test, and what happens 21 is the test is provided here in Albany. What 22 the federal government has told us -- and, 23 again, I owe this to Senator Hannon's staff. 4140 1 Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. But what I 2 was told was that if the test becomes unblinded, 3 the federal government will no longer pay for 4 the cost of the test. That would mean that the 5 cost of the test would now have to be paid for 6 by the State of New York. 7 I should add -- and I would have 8 to again look to Senator Velella for 9 clarification, but the test isn't really all 10 that expensive. I mean the test is probably a 11 couple of million dollars to actually conduct 12 the test. I don't know that, but it's not a 13 sizeable number, Senator. 14 And the issue when the first 15 draft of this bill came out with respect to 16 finances was, should we put all that money, that 17 $5 million, into treatment after, for the 18 babies, or should we put it in mandatory 19 counseling beforehand? 20 I have continued to favor and 21 with this amendment I favor that any money we're 22 going to spend under that portion of the primary 23 care focus in NYPHRM, which was a part of 4141 1 NYPHRM, that we focus our attention on mandatory 2 counseling because of the scientific as well as 3 disease transmission prevention benefit that we 4 get downstream. My position is, and I believe 5 this amendment addresses that, is that our money 6 should go to that effort. 7 SENATOR RATH: Mr. President. 8 When it's appropriate to speak on the amendment, 9 I will speak. There may be other people that 10 want to. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I do have 12 a list. There are eight -- nine people who are 13 wishing to speak. Chair would also note that 14 this debate started at 4:00 o'clock, so we're an 15 hour into the debate. I would hope that the 16 nine members would keep that in mind. There are 17 many of their colleagues who wish to speak on 18 the bill. 19 Next person on the list is 20 Senator Stavisky. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Paterson. 4142 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Don't we have 2 to move the amendment before we go through the 3 list? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We can do 5 it any way you'd like, Senator Paterson, with 6 the consent of the Majority Leader. 7 I thought that the agreement was 8 between the two of you that, in fact, we would 9 propose the amendment so that the entire issue 10 could be taken through the course of the 11 afternoon, so that the debate could be raging on 12 both of them, not necessarily on the amendment 13 or on the original bill. 14 Now, if your understanding was 15 different than that, please correct me. But the 16 chair would simply say I would entertain 17 discussion on both the amendments and the bill 18 in accordance with the list of people that we 19 have in that order. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: All right. 21 Well, in that case, Mr. President, I yield to 22 Senator Stavisky. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4143 1 Stavisky, on the bill or the amendment. 2 SENATOR STAVISKY: I learned my 3 lesson about an hour ago. Don't be a nice guy 4 when you are asked to yield the floor, because I 5 was the first one on that list and suddenly a 6 whole series of people got on the list ahead of 7 the first list that was prepared. So much for 8 that. I won't raise the issue again. 9 There were 278,000 live births in 10 New York State last year. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Stavisky, before you get into your point, may I 13 interrupt and recognize the Acting Majority 14 Leader for an announcement? 15 SENATOR RATH: Yes, Mr. 16 President. There will be an immediate meeting 17 of the Rules Committee. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 19 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules 20 Committee in the conference room or the Majority 21 room, 332. 22 Thank you for your indulgence, 23 Senator Stavisky. 4144 1 Senator Stavisky. 2 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. 3 President. We keep having announcements. We 4 might be able to hold the Senate session in the 5 telephone booth and all of us will fit in 6 there. 7 I think that in the discussion of 8 counseling, understand that last year alone, 9 there were 278,000 live births in New York 10 State, and I am not certain how effective 11 counseling would be and how much would be spent 12 on reaching the 278,000 people involved here. 13 Also, there is no mandatory 14 testing in the amendment. The amendment speaks 15 about mandatory counseling for those people who 16 agree to the test, and that approach has 17 unfortunately not succeeded thus far in 18 encouraging a lot of people to take the 19 voluntary test. 20 It seems to me that the issue 21 could be best handled if we were to put aside 22 the names of the sponsors and have something 23 which would call for mandatory testing of the 4145 1 babies which is the present law coupled with 2 counseling of mothers in the prenatal stage; and 3 in that way, the best of both worlds would 4 perhaps be accomplished. 5 We have not answered the question 6 as to why in the absence of a cure for AIDS we 7 are prepared to spend money, and I believe we 8 should, for research, counseling and treatment 9 of those people who do have AIDS, and we are not 10 prepared to give the same protection and 11 guarantee for babies who can not speak for 12 themselves, and I think that that is a fallacy 13 in the objections to this original bill 14 introduced by Senator Velella and Assemblywoman 15 Nettie Mayersohn. 16 If you want to merge the two 17 bills in a single piece of legislation, I would 18 gladly support the merger and, in fact, proposed 19 an amendment to the bill that was on the floor 20 in the Legislature, in the Senate, on the last 21 night to accomplish that, but it was never 22 called. We can not deny on the basis of age 23 resources, research, treatment or assistance, to 4146 1 anyone in New York State who is at risk. It is 2 unconscionable to deny to children, to babies, 3 strategies that might prolong their lives and 4 might have the advantage of enabling them to 5 live long enough in order to be saved from 6 death. 7 We presently mandate testing of 8 all babies in hospitals. That's not a new 9 mandate. That is the existing law. Why should 10 we not tell the mothers who have a right to know 11 that the baby who has already been tested 12 pursuant to existing law has shown HIV positive 13 in that currently mandated test? If you can 14 answer that question, then I believe the 15 Velella-Mayersohn bill should be defeated, but I 16 see no rational answer to that question. A 17 mother has a right to know. The baby can not 18 get up there and say, "I want you to protect 19 me." If the baby lives long enough, maybe the 20 baby will be able to make that statement. 21 It is our hope that perhaps by 22 suggesting -- not compelling -- suggesting that 23 mothers whose babies have tested HIV positive 4147 1 should not continue breast feeding, and there is 2 nothing written in stone that the results of the 3 test have to take a full month before the 4 results are made known to the mother. That's 5 what the basic bill is about. 6 What you would do in substituting 7 the amendment, Senator Dollinger, is to 8 eviscerate that protection which would indicate 9 not in a blind test but in a revealed result 10 only to the mother or the guardian, not 11 circulated anywhere else, what has happened with 12 that test; otherwise, why spend the money for 13 the testing if you are not going to share the 14 results with anybody, particularly the mother of 15 that infant. 16 It is sometimes politically 17 correct to take certain stands, and I suspect 18 that political correctness is behind the 19 opposition to the Mayersohn-Velella bill. 20 Political correctness that suggests that we must 21 not tinker with the confidentiality. Nobody 22 wants to tinker with the confidentiality, but a 23 mother has a right to know, and a mother has a 4148 1 right to make an informed decision, not a 2 decision in the dark. 3 We don't have a cure, a 4 definitive cure for AIDS. Does that mean we 5 should spend no more money in the State of New 6 York in order to produce a cure for everybody? 7 Nobody is suggesting that we cut off funds for 8 AIDS research and treatment to adults. Why are 9 we denying the very same guarantee to an infant 10 who can not advocate the cause for himself or 11 herself. 12 I think that we are sometimes 13 blinded by the ideological cross-currents in 14 this state. There are groups that are 15 advocating defeat of the Mayersohn-Velella bill 16 because they fear it would compromise the 17 confidentiality. Make that confidentiality as 18 strict as possible, because I'm with you on that 19 issue. It's nobody else's business, but it is 20 the business of the mother and the doctor, both 21 of whom should be informed if the baby has 22 tested HIV positive and if the resumption of 23 breast feeding would further endanger the safety 4149 1 and life of that child, then caution the mother, 2 counsel the mother. I'm using your own 3 language, that that might be the best way to 4 deal with the situation. 5 I hope that the advocates on both 6 sides of this issue will come together on an 7 agreement on prenatal counseling and for release 8 of the information on a mandatory testing of a 9 baby which is the law right now. Come together 10 with a combined piece of legislation. Let it be 11 known as the Silver-Velella-Mayersohn-and-Tully 12 bill, and those of us who want to join in it, 13 I'm sure will be given the courtesy of 14 co-sponsorship. 15 But let it not be an ideological 16 bloodbath, which is what I fear is occurring, 17 and nobody has mentioned beneath the surface 18 there are groups that are advocating defeat of 19 the bill before us because they are fearful of 20 compromising confidentiality on other issues. 21 Do not compromise 22 confidentiality. Encourage counseling of the 23 mother, and reveal the results of the baby AIDS 4150 1 test to those who have a right to know, the 2 mother and the physician or the guardian. I 3 hope, for the time being, your amendment which 4 wipes out the guts of the Velella-Mayersohn bill 5 -- I hope for the time being your amendment is 6 defeated so that we can get a comprehensive 7 amendment that would deal with both sides of the 8 issue; therefore, I'm asking for the defeat of 9 the amendment, and I'm supporting the passage of 10 the original bill. 11 Thank you. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The chair 13 would recognize Senator Marcellino. 14 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 15 President. I would like to thank Senator 16 Velella and Assemblywoman Mayersohn and Senator 17 Paterson for their concerns; Senator Paterson, 18 who held a hearing in his office which I was 19 privileged to attend on my -- he was absolutely 20 correct -- on my third day here, and these two 21 people for their courage in the face of some 22 staunch opposition to bringing this bill to the 23 floor of this chamber. 4151 1 Since I have been a Senator, the 2 level of this debate on this particular measure 3 I think is probably the highest I have heard, 4 and I truly believe that's one of the reasons I 5 came here and that's one of the reasons I'm 6 enjoying today. I think I've enjoyed today more 7 than just about any time in the past two and a 8 half weeks, so I thank you for that. 9 There is an old saying, 10 "Ignorance is bliss." In this case I think 11 ignorance is death. We can't afford it. And I 12 would urge Senator Dollinger, whose amendment I 13 believe is well-intentioned, to withdraw it 14 rather than have this chamber have to vote it 15 down, because I think, as Senator Stavisky just 16 said, it does take the guts from this particular 17 bill, and I think this is a good bill. 18 We have to do what we have to 19 do. The mother is entitled to know. And I 20 agree -- confidentiality. Maintain it. Hold 21 it. The mother, the doctor, they should be the 22 ones to determine that. But if she never is 23 told, she will never know; and the nature of the 4152 1 person who is at risk is that they will never 2 inquire, and they will never take an opportunity 3 to be part of the situation, and they will never 4 take the opportunity to get the proper 5 counseling. You are not going to get them in 6 unless you have the information; and if you have 7 it, reveal it to that person so that she can be 8 informed and make a decision that will perhaps 9 save her life; and if she's breast feeding, she 10 will stop. I mean it certainly is known that if 11 she's been breast feeding up to a period of time 12 and she's told she has HIV, she will stop. She 13 should be advised to stop. So what if it's 14 three weeks? What if she breast feeds for the 15 next six months? Isn't that worse? 16 The idea is to give the informed 17 decision-making authority and power to the 18 person who should be making the decision, the 19 mother. This bill provides that. I think this 20 bill will ultimately save lives and ultimately 21 save money and prevent an awful lot of human 22 tragedy. 23 So I urge you, sir, please 4153 1 withdraw that amendment because I don't think 2 it's going to work out, and I really do think it 3 will do more harm than good, and I would join in 4 Senator Stavisky's call that we should perhaps 5 put these two things together in a more 6 appropriate measure and recombine it and do the 7 right thing with respect to counseling because I 8 do think that's a most important part of it. 9 I also suggest defeat of the 10 amendment if it's not withdrawn and support for 11 the bill. 12 Thank you, Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 14 recognizes Senator Rath. 15 SENATOR RATH: Yes, Mr. 16 Chairman. Mr. President. I am speaking on the 17 full bill combined with the amendment. Last 18 year, as a freshman here, this was probably one 19 of the most defining moments in my first year in 20 the Senate as a co-sponsor of the Tully bill and 21 not on the Velella-Mayersohn bill, which I would 22 have been on, but somehow I wasn't and felt 23 badly that I wasn't. I was on the other bill. 4154 1 And I, in the late -- in the dark 2 of the night as this issue was coming down, I 3 got off of one bill and threw my support to the 4 other bill because, as it was explained then and 5 as the issue still is before us, I don't think 6 we have an awful lot of choice when it comes 7 down to common sense. 8 I won't belabor the issue. 9 Senator Marcellino has done a good job of 10 speaking of it. Senator Stavisky has come to 11 the same point, Senator Maltese much of the same 12 point. We don't have a choice right now. But 13 in a perfect world, yes, we should have 14 counseling early. 15 Yes, in a perfect world, I would 16 think that if there were dollars that everyone 17 who was pregnant should be tested early. I 18 don't think we're going to see that perfect 19 world very soon. Yet the point Senator 20 Marcellino made was my point, when I knew I 21 needed to stand up and speak on the bill. If a 22 woman is breast feeding for one, two, or three 23 weeks, I think that the numbers and the 4155 1 percentages that we saw at the press conference 2 that Senator Velella and Assemblywoman Mayersohn 3 held several weeks ago, the doctors reported 4 that there are dramatic percentage drops in the 5 possibility of the child actually coming to 6 full-blown HIV if the mother stops breast 7 feeding or, indeed, never breast feeds in the 8 first point. 9 I thought someone made the point 10 earlier, Well, couldn't we speed up these tests 11 that are done on the newborn so that we can know 12 within two or three days or four days? Then, 13 maybe the mothers would never breast feed. I 14 think maybe three or four or five days maybe 15 could go by before people had to make a 16 committed decision. 17 And so I think we have a lot of 18 things at play here, the most important of which 19 -- and back to Senator Paterson's early 20 comments -- everyone wants to support more 21 children being saved. I mean that's the bottom 22 line, that we want to save the lives of 23 children. I believe that the Velella-Mayersohn 4156 1 bill does that presently, and we need to be 2 working towards more enlightened legislation to 3 make sure that more babies will be saved and 4 that more mothers, hopefully, as the scientific 5 world moves along, will also be able to be saved 6 when some sort of a solution is found to this 7 horrible circumstance. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 9 recognizes Senator Mendez. 10 SENATOR MENDEZ: On the 11 amendment? I will - 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Either 13 one, Senator. 14 SENATOR MENDEZ: Is this on the 15 amendment? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Either on 17 the amendment or on the bill. 18 SENATOR MENDEZ: Okay. We're 19 dealing here today with a very simple bill. 20 That bill states that whenever a newborn child 21 is born and tested as they are being tested 22 today, the mother should be advised. We choose 23 -- we choose here in New York State to insure 4157 1 that if an adult is given a transfusion and has 2 reason to believe that that blood was -- had the 3 HIV virus, she or he had the option, that adult 4 must be told and is told that the blood 5 transfusion gave her or him the dreaded 6 disease. We are dealing here with cases of 7 doctors in New York State. They go right away 8 in a minute whenever they find out that an adult 9 man or woman is found infected with the HIV, 10 then that doctor calls the lover of that man or 11 woman and advises her or him that the lover is 12 infected with HIV. Again we're talking here 13 about adults. 14 And the reason behind all the 15 opposition to this bill stems from nothing else 16 like from a paranoia that the issue of 17 confidentiality will be, in fact, violated. So 18 then, some people take the attitude, because 19 that child is going to die anyhow, we don't have 20 to do anything for that child. 21 I take a different view. I think 22 it's -- to expect these women, 54 percent of 23 women that are giving birth nowadays to HIV 4158 1 children are African-Americans, about 30 or up 2 percentage are Hispanics. Some Puerto Ricans 3 must be included there. Many of these women are 4 marginal women, women who don't even know -- who 5 don't even know what safe sex is, either because 6 some of them to support a drug habit have become 7 prostitutes or because, if they are just poor 8 and the information hasn't gotten to them, they 9 submit to the lover or their husbands who happen 10 to be infected and then they become infected and 11 pregnant. So these women will not be the kind 12 that will be going for counseling because she 13 will not be suspecting in the least that, in 14 fact, she is infected by that virus. 15 There are a lot of prominent 16 doctors nowadays that they are advising -- very 17 seriously advising the need to unblind these 18 tests. We all should keep in mind that there is 19 not one single human right that is absolute in 20 nature. We all believe in human rights and the 21 freedom of each individual but we should be very 22 careful and think that my right -- when my right 23 stops here because your right, Mr. President, 4159 1 starts where mine leaves. 2 So to be so blinded by feelings 3 of paranoia to the point of thinking we don't 4 have to do anything for those babies because 5 they are going to die anyhow, I think that is a 6 very callous attitude to take. 7 With this bill, the pediatricians 8 will be able to take care of the medical needs 9 of the child because in pediatric medicine new 10 things have come about. Because of this bill, 11 the mother because she just realizes that her 12 child might be affected with the HIV virus or 13 has the antibody, she might be more prone to go 14 and seek help, and there is help out there. 15 So I really believe that we here 16 all want the best and we want to legislate 17 legislation that is fair, legislation that is 18 just, legislation that is compassionate. So 19 this is the time that we have to really forget 20 about private interests and think about a group 21 of women in New York State who are marginized 22 and have been marginized for many, many years 23 and that, through this bill, we will be able to 4160 1 do something for her and her child. 2 I will be voting yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 4 recognizes Senator Espada on the bill or on the 5 amendment. 6 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, Mr. 7 President. With your permission on both, but 8 will my friend and colleague from the Bronx 9 yield to a question? Senator Velella? 10 SENATOR VELELLA: Certainly. 11 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you. The 12 question is, the issue of universal counseling 13 and testing is not something that you are 14 adverse to, is it? 15 SENATOR VELELLA: No. Matter of 16 fact, I'm glad that you are asking that because 17 I just want to clear up something. The bill 18 that Senator Dollinger is offering as a 19 substitute to my bill was on our Third Reading 20 Calendar at the end of session last year. It 21 was not voted on. One which was very much 22 similar to it was voted on earlier in the 23 session, the Tully bill. That was pretty much 4161 1 aligned with this. This was a modified bill 2 that had some technical changes to it. 3 But I voted for that bill then. 4 If Senator Dollinger -- and I sometimes what to 5 rethink my position, because I agree with him on 6 this, and he may want to change his. If he were 7 offering this at the right time and the right 8 place, I would be supporting it. Unfortunately, 9 he's got his times crossed again and it's not 10 going to work today. 11 But this bill is something that 12 is being worked on. I have had conversations 13 with the new Health Commissioner who wants to do 14 a testing program and a mandatory counseling 15 program. Senator Tully continues to be deeply 16 involved in bringing this bill out, polishing it 17 up, making it a better bill. Senator Hannon is 18 working on it. There are a battery of people 19 working on it and I assume over in the Assembly 20 also. 21 We will see a better counseling 22 bill this session, hopefully we will, regarding 23 HIV virus or a bill that will give us the 4162 1 opportunity to vote for that, but that may be a 2 side bill. We will see a counseling bill like 3 this, and, yes, I do support the concept. It is 4 just where this bill fails and where the people 5 fall through the cracks that this bill will be 6 -- when they don't get the counseling and they 7 don't realize the necessity to be tested. My 8 bill will be the safety net to catch them and 9 save those lives that otherwise will fall 10 through the cracks with this bill. 11 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, 12 Senator Velella. On the bill, Mr. President. I 13 have spent better than seventeen years directly 14 involved in the provision of primary care 15 services to a community that is medically 16 indigent and that is, by many, many standards in 17 terms of its infant mortality rate, Third World 18 in terms of the quality of that service and, of 19 course, other services as well. 20 Since 1987, about 12,000 women 21 have given -- 12,000 HIV-positive women have 22 given birth in this state. Six thousand of them 23 have been undiagnosed. This bill will not 4163 1 remedy the flawed health care system that I have 2 served in for seventeen years. This bill will 3 not improve access to primary prenatal care 4 services that I referenced earlier. In fact, 5 one of my political problems with this bill is 6 not where the various interest groups sit on one 7 side or the other of this issue. My political 8 problem is with respect to the inherent 9 contradictions and hypocrisy of a political 10 system, whether it's Democrat or Republican in 11 nature, that would at once vote to have unwed 12 mothers and their babies not receive Medicaid or 13 cash -- public assistance cash benefits -- we 14 will at once do that, but also sing the praises 15 of, "My dear baby, let's be kind to babies; we 16 all love babies," when in fact we are so very, 17 very bad to them and their mothers at times when 18 we can be also supportive. 19 And so it is to that body 20 politic, it is to that hypocrisy that I have a 21 great deal of problems. But certainly in terms 22 of the issue of those 6,000 undiagnosed women 23 losing in the cruelest, worst scenario some 4164 1 privacy rights, while it is a very difficult 2 decision, while in medicine we believe in 3 informed consent, when you weigh in the balance, 4 you have to come out on the side of the child, 5 and I think most mothers and we as a society 6 must do that. 7 The political correctness issue 8 has been dealt with, and I just for a moment 9 would like to touch on the fact that, you know, 10 discrimination is not a political correctness 11 issue. Persecution of people with HIV and AIDS 12 is not an issue of political correctness, and 13 the alienation that comes with being diagnosed. 14 Many of my doctors that worked for me are afraid 15 to deal with someone who has the HIV virus. 16 When you go to the hospital to visit someone, 17 people will whisper in the corridors saying, 18 "Room X Y Z, be careful, there is an HIV 19 positive individual there." So we are not only 20 rampant with infection and with ignorance, but 21 we also have these discriminatory policies that 22 are in effect, de facto, even with very strong 23 confidentiality laws. 4165 1 So I don't take very lightly this 2 whole issue of political correctness and the 3 political interests that are fearful of losing 4 some of their rights and being persecuted. I 5 think that they have a right to that; and, quite 6 honestly, I think they have reason for concern 7 not so much because of this bill but because of 8 the attitudes in society that we can't just turn 9 our back on after passage of this bill and 10 others like it that will come before us. 11 So this bill, while it unblinds, 12 it doesn't unbungle things a bit, and it 13 certainly doesn't provide for a clear vision of 14 the problem. But on its face, it is the right 15 thing to do, and I would vote in favor of it. 16 Thank you. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Maltese. 19 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President. 20 Earlier, it was said by one of my distinguished 21 Senate colleagues that since he came here, a 22 relatively short time ago, he was impressed by 23 the level of debate here on this particular 4166 1 legislation. I have been here somewhat more 2 than six years and I would like to say that I 3 firmly believe that this is if not the most 4 important legislation that we have discussed 5 than certainly one of the most important pieces 6 of legislation. 7 This should be the most basic 8 decision for all of us here. This is a decision 9 that can only be argued against on extraneous, 10 superficial grounds. We here in this house hear 11 very often about hypocrisy when we're discussing 12 abortion or death penalties or matters of 13 conscience. This is definitely a matter of 14 utmost concern and certainly a matter of 15 conscience. This is talking not about very 16 ambiguous medical terminology or methods of 17 medical treatment going deeply into various and 18 varied methods of treatment and the efficacy of 19 those methods of treatment. This is talking 20 about saving babies lives. This speaks of 21 making available to mothers, those most vitally 22 concerned with the welfare of their children, 23 and their physicians, the results of a test that 4167 1 has been mandated, a blind test that has been 2 mandated; and we in the Legislature are standing 3 in the way of making this test result available 4 to the mother and those most vitally concerned. 5 A few weeks ago, I was at a press 6 conference with a mother who had not been aware 7 that she had transmitted AIDS to her infant and 8 imagine the horror, the dismay of this mother to 9 know that had she been advised earlier she could 10 have, by voluntarily ceasing breast feeding, 11 improved the chances of her child and -- nay, 12 not improved, made almost impossible the 13 transmission of AIDS to her child. 14 We have facts and figures that 15 are undisputed in this house or anywhere else 16 that 75 percent of the children, the newborns of 17 these infected mothers, will not contract the 18 disease if and only if their mothers do not 19 continue breast feeding over a protracted period 20 of time. My good colleague, Senator Paterson, 21 speaks of early detection, delay in detection. 22 The truth of the matter is that as expeditiously 23 as we can get that information to the parents, 4168 1 we should do so; and those and the parent, the 2 mother, should immediately cease breast 3 feeding. But the truth of the matter is that 4 many of those mothers are not aware that they 5 can even transmit or continue to transmit this 6 deadly virus to their infant. 7 So we are faced with parents, 8 mothers, who not only must bear the burden of 9 knowing that they themselves are infected and 10 very, very likely to perish before their 11 children grow up, but they also must face the 12 horror of knowing that they may have by breast 13 feeding, perhaps an act that is synonymous with 14 mother love, that they are sentencing their 15 children, giving their children a virtual death 16 penalty, a death verdict, transmitted by the 17 mother to her own newborn. 18 Mr. President. The logic of this 19 bill speaks for itself, but I suggest to any who 20 would oppose this bill visit a hospital in 21 Queens as I have, Elmhurst General Hospital, in 22 connection with a foster grandparent program, 23 speak to volunteers as I have, like a lady from 4169 1 Ridgewood, Clara Mannheim. They volunteer as 2 foster grandparents, and that sounds very, very 3 salutary. It sounds like a wonderful program, 4 but it's more than that. I take my hat off and 5 I admire every foster grandparent that goes to 6 that hospital annex, because what do these 7 mostly ladies do? 8 They provide love and affection 9 to newborn infants who are absolutely, 10 positively doomed to perish within a short 11 period of time. These children are AIDS babies 12 who either have been abandoned by their parents 13 or their parents or their mother has died either 14 in childbirth or shortly thereafter. Most of 15 them are born with terrible afflictions, blind, 16 misformed, without arms, without legs, and they 17 don't have mother love, and what these grand 18 parents do is they hold them, they nurture them, 19 they caress them for their relatively short 20 lives, which in most cases is for a relatively 21 few months. They give them mother love. That's 22 what they give them, and then, when the child 23 dies as most of them do, they go on to another 4170 1 child and do the same thing. 2 And no person, no human being 3 could go there and not be emotionally affected 4 to watch these foster grandmothers, in most 5 cases, as I say, although there are some men 6 that are hardy enough to do it, because it is 7 very, very difficult to do. Picture, if you 8 will, a foster grandparent holding a little 9 infant, lavishing affection on it, perhaps 10 blind, misformed, and tears running down her 11 eyes at the very same time she's doing it 12 because she's knows that this child is going to 13 perish in a relatively short time; and despite 14 the disadvantages, the emotional heartache of 15 fastening on to one child, most of these foster 16 parents stay with one child most of the time 17 until the child dies. 18 Now, these are AIDS babies. 19 These are children doomed to die, but there are 20 other babies that we can prevent dying by our 21 actions in this house and in the Assembly. 22 Mr. President. There is 23 absolutely no doubt that this legislation will 4171 1 save lives, will save newborn lives and save the 2 destruction of lives for parents, mothers and 3 fathers, who unintentionally doom their own 4 children to a certain death. We must act. I 5 urge the passage of this legislation and I urge 6 it as expeditiously as possible. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 8 recognizes Senator Abate on the bill or the 9 amendment. 10 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, on the bill 11 and the amendment. If I had more time, Senator 12 Velella, I would like to ask you a number of 13 questions, but I know that the time is limited, 14 and it is very difficult, and I have thought a 15 long time about not only what my position on the 16 bill is but how I would characterize my 17 position, and this debate is very similar to the 18 death penalty. Many people feel a great deal of 19 anger, a great deal of emotion around this 20 issue, and it's an issue that is very popular 21 among many people. 22 So what I'm trying to do is cause 23 a debate that is thoughtful to reach the 4172 1 rational side of people's minds, and maybe if 2 you would take a moment just to listen to how I 3 progressed to my position. 4 When I first heard about this 5 bill a year ago, my initial reaction was, "Of 6 course, I favor it." I was a mother and I 7 viewed myself all the women in the world would 8 react the way I react as a mother. There is 9 little I wouldn't do to protect my child; and in 10 the course of my making my decision, I was told 11 if you are pro children, if you care about women 12 and children getting into treatment, that you 13 must favor this bill. If you don't favor the 14 bill, you are un-American. 15 What I have heard today, which is 16 interesting, if I oppose the bill and these are 17 the words from the floor, I must be irrational. 18 I'm superficial. I'm stupid, uncaring, 19 paranoid. I'm politically correct. 20 Although I don't necessarily 21 think I'm politically correct. I think if I 22 oppose this bill, I'm unpopular; and through the 23 course of this debate, until I reached the 4173 1 decision, I called a number of medical 2 providers. I called the Commissioner of Health, 3 and I said I need to understand. Am I looking 4 at this bill simplistically? Is this bill more 5 complicated? Is the rhetoric true? 6 And I spent a lot of time talking 7 to medical providers, the Commissioner of 8 Health, and the majority -- and we can debate 9 how many people are on either side, but it's 10 clear the majority of people who are in the 11 business of caring and providing medical 12 services are opposed to this bill. 13 So then I had to ask, "Why?" I 14 mean I'm just -- I was at that time Commissioner 15 of Correction. I had no idea other than the 16 limited health services we provided at 17 Correction. I had to understand why these 18 individuals were firmly against the bill. 19 And I now understand at least in 20 my mind more clearly. We all have the same 21 goals, whether you are for or against the bill. 22 We all support that women and children need to 23 be tested. We want them to be tested and 4174 1 encourage them to be tested, and we want them to 2 be in treatment and we want to do everything 3 possible to prevent the transmission of AIDS. 4 What we disagree about here today 5 is how do we get women tested? How do we get 6 them information that they can act upon in a 7 rational way, and how can we prevent 8 unnecessarily the transmission of AIDS? 9 So I have now decided that I can 10 not support the bill, and I think the reason why 11 it's so confusing is that we say that women who 12 have the right to know should know. Well, right 13 now, women who want to know know. Let me repeat 14 that again. Women who want to know about the 15 condition of themselves or their babies can get 16 that information. Women who want to be tested 17 today can be tested. Let me repeat that again. 18 Women who want to be tested can be tested 19 today. That's very important. 20 So I believe that mandatory 21 counseling makes sense because it's about 22 informed consent. It's about developing a 23 relationship between the provider and the 4175 1 patient that's cooperative, and I believe when 2 women are adequately informed they will do the 3 right thing. So why are we doing mandatory 4 testing? Because, let's get in the real world, 5 there are a subset of women that don't want to 6 know or don't understand the health care system, 7 and these are women who are isolated, 8 alienated. Many of them, when they leave the 9 hospital, abandon their children, are substance 10 abusers. 11 So mandatory testing? Why do we 12 think if we test the women who now know that 13 they can be tested can get this information, why 14 do we think mandatory testing will bring this 15 subset of women closer to treatment and that 16 they care for their babies? I don't think 17 that's the reality. 18 I think the profile of the woman 19 we are trying to reach through mandatory testing 20 will benefit the most through mandatory 21 counseling. I can only draw upon my own 22 experience, and I think all of us reach 23 decisions based on those experiences. We ran a 4176 1 program at Rikers Island. It was a nursery 2 program, and I was overwhelmed, and these were a 3 subset of women who could keep their babies 4 while they are in jail, and I looked at the 5 women and how they cared their children. They 6 spent -- up all night playing and reading to 7 their children and nurturing their child, and I 8 would say to the women, "It's remarkable how you 9 care about your child; it must be your first 10 child." And time and time again, the women 11 would say, "No, this is not my first child. 12 It's my seventh child and this is the first time 13 because I went to Rikers Island and I got into 14 this program, I learned about nutrition, I 15 learned about health care, I learned about 16 AIDS. I've never gone to a doctor before. I 17 never went to primary care. I never went to a 18 dentist." 19 I heard that from hundreds and 20 hundreds of women. So the profile of the woman 21 we're talking about -- and I say get into the 22 real world. It's not Senator Rath, it's not 23 Senator Mendez, it's not Senator Smith, it's not 4177 1 Senator Abate. These are women that need to be 2 reached through prenatal care and education, and 3 there is no evidence that shows me. If there 4 was evidence that could show to me that we could 5 draw these women into the health care system 6 through mandatory testing, I would support this 7 bill. 8 Unfortunately, this bill feels 9 good. It sounds good. I don't believe 10 notification should replace prevention and 11 treatment. This is too little, too late, and I 12 don't believe notification is health care. 13 Health care is a program, is a policy. It's a 14 process that brings women closer to treatment, 15 brings their children into treatment, gives them 16 the capacity to care for their child under the 17 umbrella of a health care system. 18 This bill does not do that; and 19 for these reasons I can not support it. I think 20 we must again reexamine mandatory counseling. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 22 recognizes Senator Gold on the bill and on the 23 amendment. 4178 1 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you very 2 much. Senator Abate, I will concede to you that 3 I didn't hear every remark that was made, and I 4 was a little shocked to hear that you could 5 interpret remarks made on this floor as 6 suggesting that you were dumb or superficial or 7 whatever. I think if those remarks were made I 8 think we all owe you an apology or if people 9 should feel that way. 10 I think your remarks, which I 11 don't happen to agree with your conclusion, are 12 as sincere as the remarks of anybody else, and 13 this is a debate that's been characterized in 14 many different ways. I can not believe that 15 anybody that stands up today has anything but 16 sincere feelings. 17 When you say the majority in this 18 business are opposed, Senator, I didn't do that 19 kind of a count, but I can imagine a lot of 20 reasons why you asked why. I can think of a lot 21 of reasons why, and I say to myself, "Out there 22 today is the kind of dogma that kills." People 23 get worried about certain kinds of principles, 4179 1 and I always say to myself, "You ought to come 2 out with the right result." If you are 3 following a set of guidelines or rules and it 4 leads you to the wrong result, I don't know the 5 purpose of these rules and guidelines; and I 6 appreciate confidentiality and I respect the 7 medical profession. 8 But if concepts of 9 confidentiality tell you that as between a woman 10 and her natural instincts to want to take care 11 of her child we have to come in between that and 12 for some reason that makes very good logic the 13 child dies, I don't understand the logic -- I 14 don't understand it. You say that women who 15 want to know know. Senator, you are a good 16 lawyer. We have a lot of situations in the law 17 where guardians are appointed for children not 18 because their parents don't love them but 19 because something happens and we say, "Well, in 20 this case, why don't we have a guardian for the 21 kids." 22 I don't know, maybe if this 23 doesn't become the law, we're going to have to 4180 1 start setting up guardians before kids are born, 2 and I can imagine that when we start getting 3 into that, the abortion questions and 4 nonabortion questions, what that's all going to 5 raise. 6 But a woman doesn't want to know. 7 A woman is scared. There are women, Senator 8 Abate, who believe in the concept of natural 9 childbirth, and there are women who say, "I want 10 to have a kid in the worst way; I want them to 11 take me and knock me out and tell me in an hour 12 or two after that I got a boy or a girl. I 13 don't know want to know." 14 Women are entitled not to want to 15 know about a lot of things, but what we're 16 talking about is the child. The child that is 17 born and is a human being at some point. 18 Now, I don't disagree with the 19 concept of counseling. I think education is 20 terrific, and I'm not going to repeat everything 21 Senator Stavisky said because I thought today 22 was brilliant. He really laid it out 23 beautifully. 4181 1 We are not against counseling; 2 and if you can talk people into doing the right 3 thing and learning, that's fine. I don't have 4 any problem with that. 5 And when it comes to AIDS 6 funding, I think we're all crazy, all of us are 7 crazy. We don't put enough money into it, and 8 you may not want to put money into it because 9 you think it's one group or another in society 10 and to heck with them. I think we're all nuts 11 to have this kind of an epidemic and not be 12 putting serious money into it. 13 But when all is said and done, 14 when all is said and done, there is one question 15 that just can't be answered; and that is, you 16 have information that can help a child to live 17 and you don't want to use it in that way, and I 18 have tried to find some logic for that, and, 19 believe me, I don't want to do the wrong thing 20 legislatively any more than anyone here does, 21 and we are going to cast votes today, 61 if 22 we're all here, and not one of those votes is 23 going to be cast by a Senator who wants to do 4182 1 the wrong thing. We're all trying to do the 2 right thing. 3 So I say to myself, you know, 4 there ought to be counseling, and we ought to be 5 reaching out, and I agree with Senator Abate. 6 It's not this particular community. It may be 7 that community over there. Well, let's reach 8 in. Let's give them everything, and now we have 9 done everything. We have done mandatory 10 counseling; we've done everything; and then some 11 little tyke gets born and testing shows that HIV 12 is there, and we are going to say, "Tough", "Too 13 bad", "Not our fault; the mandatory testing was 14 there. Your mother didn't want to know. Your 15 mother doesn't want to know today." I can't 16 understand that. I can't understand it, and I 17 don't believe it. 18 I don't believe that if a woman, 19 a decent, loving mother believed that I had 20 information which might hurt her but could help 21 her kid, I can't believe she wouldn't want to 22 know that information. But we're being told you 23 can't give it. 4183 1 And I tell you, Senator 2 Dollinger, I don't think your idea is a bad one, 3 and I won't repeat what was said over here and 4 what was said from the gentleman from Nassau 5 County. If we had both bills, I could vote for 6 both bills. But I'm not going to take this 7 opportunity and sabotage it, because this is 8 just too important. 9 As a matter of fact it's 10 interesting. We live in a world where we get a 11 new education every day. The way we treat our 12 staffs, sexual harassment, et cetera, et cetera, 13 it's all new sensitivities. We're all very 14 sensitive now to things called child abuse. 15 What could be more abusive to a child than for a 16 parent to ignore a health problem. We would all 17 go bananas if we knew -- if a parent knew that a 18 child was laying in the other room with fever 19 and the parent went out to a card game. 20 Well, why isn't it child abuse, 21 philosophically, for us to deny legislation 22 which says if you have information which can 23 help a child to live you pass it on to the 4184 1 parent. You don't take an ad in the New York 2 Times. You certainly don't take it in the 3 Post. You don't make it public but as between 4 the parent and the child, in a sensitive way. 5 You know, there used to be that 6 old joke, and the bottom line of it is you'd 7 walk into the ward, there's five women, and 8 you'd say, "Who here -- raise your hand if you 9 have a child that doesn't have AIDS. Un-uh, not 10 so fast, Mrs. Brown." 11 I mean I'm not talking about 12 being a bull in a china shop. We're talking 13 about sensitivity. But how you as a doctor, 14 nurse, lab technician, have in your possession 15 information which if it was transmitted to a 16 mother -- and this is a real case -- these 17 aren't statistics. This isn't philosophy, deep 18 philosophy. This is the real world. You've got 19 information in your hand; and if I give it, I 20 may help. I think it may help. And if I don't 21 give it, I know it can't help. Maybe that kid 22 will get better, maybe that kid won't get 23 better. Maybe the mother will breast feed, 4185 1 maybe the mother won't. 2 But I have the shot. It's only a 3 shot at helping. How do you not take it? I 4 don't understand it. How do you not take it? 5 I respect the people who oppose 6 this bill. I respect their medical expertise. 7 I respect their right to come to a conclusion, 8 and they may be as intelligent or more 9 intelligent as the people who are in favor of 10 the bill. I don't think that's the issue. I 11 think when all is said and done, I go back to a 12 case I had as a young lawyer and the courts 13 ruled a certain way. It was against me, and I 14 took it on appeal, and the judge in that case, 15 the Appellate Judge said, "You can look at all 16 the technicalities you want in the law, but you 17 can't find a technicality that justifies doing 18 the wrong thing." Thank God I was on the right 19 side. It got reversed. 20 But you can't do it today, 21 either. How do you look at a technicality? How 22 do you look at a medical principle, and how do 23 you develop principles that lead you to the 4186 1 wrong conclusion, a conclusion that can 2 jeopardize a young baby? 3 So with my deepest respect - 4 deepest respect, sincerest respect for those 5 people who will disagree with me, I'm going to 6 cast a proud vote for this bill. I think that 7 Senator Velella has no problem handling himself, 8 but I think the toughest guy in town is Nettie 9 Mayersohn; and, thankfully, she's in a fight, 10 she sticks in the fight, and she took a lot of 11 abuse, and a lot of other people would have 12 quit. But if you know Nettie Mayersohn, you 13 know she doesn't quit; and if you know Guy 14 Velella, you know he doesn't quit. 15 And so we are on the floor today 16 with an opportunity to do simply a decent 17 thing. Is it the best thing, Senator 18 Dollinger? I don't know. Is it the only 19 thing? Probably not. But it's something that I 20 think will save lives, and I think that's enough 21 of a reason to vote for it. 22 Thank you. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4187 1 Oppenheimer. 2 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you, 3 Mr. President. I believe someone earlier -- one 4 of my colleagues -- said that -- something about 5 political correctness and the popularity of this 6 bill and this issue, and I look at the people 7 who are opposing mandatory disclosure, and I do 8 not think that these people are people that are 9 very, you know, involved with political 10 correctness. I don't think they are 11 particularly involved in civil liberties. You 12 know, names like the American College of 13 Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the American 14 Medical Association, the New York State Nurses 15 Association, the American Public Health 16 Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, 17 the National Association of Social Workers, you 18 know, these aren't people that I think care very 19 much except for public health and the health of 20 children and mothers, and I tell you the truth I 21 look to authorities when it comes to an issue 22 which I'm not particularly knowledgeable about, 23 and I think none of us in this chamber are 4188 1 anywhere as knowledgeable as these people I've 2 mentioned, and these are pretty much national 3 positions. Sometimes New York State positions, 4 but mostly national positions, and it looks to 5 me like just about every major medical provider 6 in the United States is opposed to this. 7 And I really don't have the kind 8 of information that they have. I know I believe 9 very strongly in the voluntary counseling and 10 testing. I think it is essential that there be 11 this counseling if we're going to have 12 behavioral changes and changes to health care 13 and nutritional care and education and 14 involvement with the baby; and these mothers, 15 for the most part, have not demonstrated, at 16 least the mothers that I believe we are talking 17 about, have not demonstrated interests in either 18 the health care, the nutritional care -- if they 19 had, I think they would have gotten involved in 20 the health care system well before this point 21 where we are dealing with a baby. They should 22 have been getting some kind of care prior, and 23 they would have probably asked before the baby 4189 1 was born to have themselves tested so that they 2 could take the best care possible of the baby. 3 I think if this -- the bill that 4 we call the Tully bill from last year, the 5 counseling bill, if that had come forth first, I 6 think many of us would have found it easier to 7 support this bill because then it would have 8 been those mothers that didn't avail themselves 9 of the counseling; and, therefore, those 10 reprobate mothers, "Well, this is what we have 11 to tell you at this point." 12 But I think we would have felt 13 much more comfortable with the Tully bill before 14 us, and we could say, yes, we support the 15 counseling. We support the advice that has to 16 go into changing behavioral attitudes and 17 methods and policies that just don't seem to be 18 apparent in most of the -- you know, the mothers 19 that we're going to be dealing with in this 20 issue. 21 I think the attention is taken 22 away from where the focus ought to be. The 23 focus ought to be to grab that mother and say, 4190 1 "You have to know about this. This is 2 mandatory counseling and this is what you have 3 to know and if you know this, then this is the 4 action you should take." I think it is really 5 too late to be dealing with the baby. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 7 would recognize Senator Paterson to close for 8 the Minority. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 10 President. Without Senator Velella's efforts, 11 we wouldn't be discussing this entire issue 12 today, so I again compliment him on the work 13 that he has done. 14 I heard in this discussion a lot 15 of conversation about confidentiality. 16 Confidentiality is not an issue in this 17 discussion because we as a society have already 18 addressed the issue of confidentiality because 19 there are seven diseases that we do require 20 mandatory testing and mandatory information that 21 is shared with those who are tested, with the 22 mothers of children who are born with these 23 different diseases. 4191 1 So this is not a question of 2 confidentiality. This is a question of 3 consent. If an individual does not want to be 4 informed on this particular issue, what we are 5 saying to them is that you have to be informed. 6 You must be informed because it is public policy 7 that the value of your knowing is more important 8 than your own privacy. That's something we can 9 do. We do that in the case of seven diseases 10 that Senator Mendez pointed out when she was 11 speaking. 12 But the problem with this 13 particular bill and the problem I have been 14 hearing in the discussion all afternoon is the 15 problem of treatment. At the point that we 16 become aware that an infant is tested positive 17 for the HIV virus, we have continued through 18 this discussion to ignore the fact that 70 to 85 19 percent of these infants will never contract the 20 AIDS disease. The overwhelming majority of them 21 will not develop AIDS. 22 So the discussion even of the 23 treatment is somewhat irrelevant because as we 4192 1 discussed earlier our federal regulations 2 through the CDC say, for instance, in the area 3 of treatment by the use of Bactrim we don't use 4 Bactrim until the pneumocystis PCP, the 5 pneumonia, kicks in. 6 So, now we have a mother and this 7 mother is informed that she has the HIV virus. 8 What are we going to do? What is our 9 treatment? What is anybody here suggesting be 10 our treatment at that point? 11 The reality is that in the case 12 of infants because there is not a static 13 situation, because there is a change in their 14 condition -- in four out of five cases, they are 15 not going to develop the virus -- we can't 16 treat them with any drugs. We used to treat 17 them with AZT. We lost all of those babies. 18 Nobody seems to want to address 19 that issue. But if we're really talking about 20 saving babies, we sure in the late '80s did not 21 do that. So, now, what is it that we as a 22 society gain from knowing that the women who 23 happen to test positive for the HIV virus and 4193 1 have infants who are testing positive, what is 2 the value of us knowing that information? 3 I don't - 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Mendez, why do you rise? 6 SENATOR MENDEZ: Will Senator 7 Paterson yield for a question. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Paterson, will you yield? Senator yields. 10 SENATOR MENDEZ: You are saying 11 that the percentage of the babies born, we never 12 develop what actually they are born with is the 13 mother's antibody, and what you are saying that 14 because of the -- of the possibility of infec 15 tion, assuming all those that just have the 16 antibodies of the disease and those are the 17 ones, 12 to 25 percent, that are born with the 18 AIDS virus. You're assuming that all of them 19 will be treated with one of those two drugs, so 20 if this bill doesn't go through then, and we 21 know that you don't want babies to be treated 22 with those drugs, then are you assuming -- are 23 you stating then, let those that are -- that are 4194 1 O.K., leave them like that, the other 12 or 25 2 percent let them die. They're going to die any 3 way. Is that the assumption? 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 5 Mendez, that's not an assumption. Those 12 6 percent of those babies are going to die unfor 7 tunately, and it's tragic to say this. They are 8 going to die at a point whether we treat them or 9 not. 10 I'm not saying we shouldn't treat 11 them, but I'm saying that they are going to 12 succumb; that is correct. 13 SENATOR MENDEZ: Then it becomes 14 -- there are new things that are being 15 developed that could, in fact, make it possible 16 for those children who have the virus to be 17 treated, so -- so I'm losing my trend of -- of 18 thought. They will be -- those will be -- those 19 will be treated. 20 Oh, I'm so sorry, I had a loss of 21 memory, because this -- this subject matter, in 22 my mind, I find that it is - 23 SENATOR PATERSON: You have a 4195 1 worthy assistant here, Senator Velella, and he's 2 saying in the future - 3 SENATOR MENDEZ: I want to 4 apologize. It's just that this issue is so 5 important to me. 6 You're also saying that these 7 women, who are marginal women, women who behave 8 differently than middle class women who, 9 whenever we have a little problem, any money so 10 they go to the therapist or they go to the 11 psychiatrist, to discuss their feelings about A 12 or B or C, but this, the experiential world of 13 these marginal women is totally different. So 14 if we think that we're going to have these women 15 go for counseling, when we -- when they don't 16 know what is at stake and they know that their 17 babies were born with the antibodies or the HIV 18 factor, then they will have a motivation to go 19 for help. 20 Then they will go; then we will 21 be able to help them first practice safe sex so 22 they wouldn't give the -- the horrible disease 23 to anybody else and, secondly, to understand the 4196 1 things that have to be done so that their babies 2 would have a better life. After all, with all 3 the things that have come about in the treatment 4 of AIDS, thank God, people are living longer. 5 Why can't a child that is born 6 with AIDS couldn't be helped to live longer? 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 8 President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Paterson. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: First of all, 12 what Senator Mendez is advocating is a mandatory 13 testing period, and that's what I'm afraid we 14 get to. 15 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Mendez, why do you rise? 18 SENATOR MENDEZ: I think that I 19 haven't been very articulate, because I -- I 20 just heard my esteemed colleague saying that I 21 am advocating mandatory testing. I am not 22 advocating mandatory testing. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: O.K. 4197 1 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mandatory 2 testing exists. All these children are being 3 tested for the AIDS virus, all of them. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Mendez. 6 SENATOR MENDEZ: The only 7 question is, should the mother know or should we 8 as a public policy keep it away from her? In 9 doing so, we are condemning her to -- not to get 10 treatment for herself. In doing so we are 11 condemning that child to an earlier death, and I 12 think that that is a very callous public 13 policy. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Paterson to continue to close. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr. 17 President. 18 When we are advising people that 19 because they have the HIV virus that we now have 20 tested them and are now advising them to 21 practice safe sex, that is not related to what 22 this bill does. That's why I thought that that 23 was an argument for just general mandatory 4198 1 testing. 2 What this legislation does, and 3 even the sponsor of the legislation is not 4 advocating that there be any penalty that the 5 woman would suffer from learning that she has 6 the HIV virus. What I understood this 7 legislation to be serving was the children, so I 8 think we need to focus on the issue of the 9 children. 10 Now, the length of time that 11 people are living for those who have contracted 12 the HIV virus has never in any study been 13 related to the drugs that they receive. It's 14 been related really to the longevity of the 15 existence of the virus itself. 16 But on the issue of children, 17 what I'm saying is that we cannot in a sense 18 have a preventive hit in this particular 19 situation because since we don't know who the 20 young newborns are who are going to sero-convert 21 and who is not going to sero-convert because we 22 don't know who that is, we can't start entering 23 into the kinds of treatment. 4199 1 The preventive treatments have 2 been effective, and this goes back to a question 3 that Senator Maltese asked earlier, when the 4 woman is actually pregnant, but when the new 5 born actually comes onto the planet, past 6 experience treating the newborn with immuno 7 suppressant drugs has been fatal, and so when - 8 Senator Mendez? 9 SENATOR MENDEZ: Will the Senator 10 yield to just one more little question? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator, 12 do you yield to one little question? 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, I - 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 Senator does. 16 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator 17 Paterson, all the kids are born, 75 or 80 18 percent of them with the -- with the -- the 19 antibodies and 10 to 25 percent with the HI 20 virus. You are saying that nobody knows which 21 of those children have the virus versus which of 22 the children will -- you know, will grow out of 23 the virus. But what they do know is that 4200 1 children from three months to six months of age 2 -- of age, three months to six months, they 3 develop the pneumonia that is characteristic 4 ally associated with AIDS. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, those - 6 SENATOR MENDEZ: So that we have 7 between the three months and the six-month 8 period that will be the time in which the 9 children will develop either that kind of 10 pneumonia or any of those other parasitic 11 inflammations that take advantage of the 12 immunological, so that I felt that I had to 13 remind you of that. 14 You are so concerned that all the 15 kids are going to be given AZT or all the kids 16 are going to be given the other drug that you're 17 talking about, O.K.? 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Mr. 19 President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Paterson. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Mendez 23 has actually explained the reason why I contend 4201 1 that this bill should be defeated. She just 2 explained it herself. Maybe inadvertently, but 3 she just explained it. 4 She said at the time that the 5 children are born, no one knows the difference 6 between those who have the HIV virus and those 7 who are going to sero-convert but, as Senator 8 Mendez said, between three and six months those 9 that have the HIV virus will develop the 10 characteristic pneumonia. That's when you know 11 they have it. That's when you start treating 12 them with Bactrim, and that's why the test, the 13 mandatory nature of the test does not 14 necessarily need an absolute conclusion that the 15 mother be aware, because in the cases where the 16 young people, the newborns are going to go on 17 and develop the HIV virus, you will know that, 18 in the majority of cases from three to six 19 months, and that's exactly why at the time you 20 conduct a test for newborns, there is absolutely 21 no reason that the mothers being informed has to 22 be involved, and I thank Senator Mendez for 23 bringing that to our attention. 4202 1 Now, if I can close on the bill, 2 Mr. President, I would just like to say that one 3 of the reasons that I have a problem with this 4 bill is that we haven't discussed all day, just 5 involves the treatment itself and this is the 6 treatment not only for the children but for the 7 adults. 75 percent of the children won't have 8 the HIV virus, but one thing we haven't 9 discussed today, that means that three out of 10 every four people that have the HIV virus are 11 going to be the mothers, and there isn't 12 anything that I see, no funding, no increase in 13 registration of hospital beds in communities 14 that need this, nothing is being -- is going 15 with this bill that is going to really treat the 16 real problem, which is the number of people that 17 have the HIV virus. 18 And one other point. The 19 research on this particular virus, in my 20 opinion, has been stagnated and has been 21 obfuscated. Last year, after the debate, I was 22 confronted by one of the advocates for the 23 passing of this legislation, and they described 4203 1 some remarks that Senator Gold made on the floor 2 and some remarks that I made on the floor as 3 being bizarre about the alternative therapies 4 the people are using to treat the HIV virus. 5 Unfortunately, one of the issues 6 that's come up today, and I -- it doesn't matter 7 to me, everyone has to vote your conscience, 8 whether you vote for the bill. Senator Gold is 9 for the bill, but he's also for a much more 10 concentrated, much more extended research on the 11 legislation. But there has been a tendency in 12 the debate today to institutionalize the 13 treatment, in other words, to actually believe 14 that the treatment has had positive effects. 15 The only positive effect that any 16 study has really demonstrated hereto, one is 17 that if you treat the pregnant woman with AZT 18 you can diminish the number of newborns who test 19 positive for the HIV virus, so that's something 20 we should do. 21 Now, technically, what the 22 sponsors might have done is to have moved the 23 test back at the time that the women were 4204 1 actually pregnant. The second thing is that the 2 drugs we're using now, drugs like DDI and DDC, 3 are actually prolonging the lives of the 4 individuals who have it, but they are also 5 making them higher risks for a -- an earlier 6 death. In other words, the average time is 7 longer, but because these drugs exacerbate the 8 virus, many of these people are dying younger 9 than they would have; and so what I'm saying is, 10 this time period, the newborn, the test at birth 11 does not have the value that the very good 12 hearted people, sponsors and those who've 13 debated the bill, think that it actually does 14 and what it's doing, it is allowing all of us to 15 leave this chamber feeling reassured that modern 16 medicine is making every attempt to treat this 17 virus, when I contend that that is not 18 happening. 19 We are treating it with a bunch 20 of prescription drugs. AZT which was actually 21 used as a drug for cancer, chemotherapy, treats 22 and assists 12 percent of the patients, but 15 23 percent of them develop a new cancer. It's 4205 1 taking a giant step backwards, and what I'm 2 saying is we need a Galileo. We need a 3 Columbus. We need a Copernicus. We need the 4 kind of research and the kind of funding - 5 Velella? We need a Velella too. 6 We need people who are fighting 7 to try to find a cure for this virus. What I 8 like most about this bill and this discussion is 9 the fact that we're addressing this whole issue 10 in terms of this bill, I honestly feel that 11 we're rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, 12 that we are not actually able, through the 13 information that we get from these tests, to 14 really help the victims whether we disclose it 15 to the mother or not and, if we find something 16 that is really tangible, something that's really 17 effective, our law has already covered that. We 18 will mandatorily inform the mother, but until 19 then, what we're saying is you have to take the 20 test. We have to tell you the results. 21 We'll tell you that it's going to 22 be confidential and then, in the meantime, if 23 you do have the HIV virus, we'll keep an eye on 4206 1 your child to see if they develop it because 2 there's no real treatment we can give at that 3 time. There's no real treatment we can give at 4 that time and at the same time what will we do 5 for you? Well, according to this year's budget, 6 not a whole lot in terms of the area of funding 7 and that is the reason, Mr. President, I feel 8 that I would want to oppose this bill. 9 But I would close just by 10 reminding all of us that those inventors, those 11 individuals who brought knowledge onto the face 12 of this earth, were always opposed by the 13 societies that they lived in. Thousands of 14 years ago or whenever it was that the first 15 person invented fire, I think they were probably 16 burned at the stake because they taught their 17 brothers and sisters to light, but they offered 18 the world a gift that had never been perceived 19 before and forever lifted darkness from the face 20 of the earth. 21 But throughout the centuries, the 22 great creators, the scientists, the inventors, 23 were opposed. Every new thought was denounced; 4207 1 every new idea was opposed. Fortunately, those 2 creative men and women went ahead. They fought, 3 they suffered and they paid, but they won and 4 they won by bringing forth onto our society and 5 other societies new knowledge and new 6 information. 7 We are not going to find that 8 knowledge by spending most of our time deciding 9 whether or not we're going to deny consent. We 10 are going to find that knowledge by pouring as 11 many resources as we can into AIDS research 12 before, as a society, this cancer envelops us 13 all through the ancillary diseases that we're 14 finding out, cryptosporidium in our water and 15 certainly tuberculosis, the affectation of AIDS 16 and a whole lot of other very serious diseases 17 that are being spawned by this menace. 18 That's where I think our 19 concentration must lie, and that's why I'm so 20 happy that Senator Velella is working on this 21 legislation because it gave us an opportunity to 22 discuss it today. 23 Thank you very much. 4208 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 2 recognizes Senator Velella to close debate. 3 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, Mr. 4 President. I have probably six pages of notes 5 that I'd like to refer to, but I realize that 6 we're already over the limit and that we are - 7 we have additional work ahead of us tonight, so 8 I'm going to sum up as quickly as I possibly 9 can. 10 Let me say that I've heard a lot 11 of misstatements of fact here tonight and this 12 bill in no way, Senator Paterson, even begins to 13 deal with the issue of treatment. Obviously you 14 have some very strong feelings about what drugs 15 should be used, what techniques should be used, 16 what doctors have told you, what should be done, 17 what shouldn't be done. 18 All this bill says is that we're 19 going to let someone know that that baby that 20 was born has the potential of developing the 21 AIDS virus, and we're going to try to deal with 22 that and do the best we can for that child. 23 Now, that doesn't mean that we're 4209 1 going to give it AZT. It doesn't mean that 2 we're going to do anything else except take the 3 same precautions that the Centers for Disease 4 Control is now writing the protocols for to 5 start early treatment with -- with antibiotics 6 to prevent those pneumonias that I was talking 7 about. Atlanta is telling us that they are on 8 the verge of successfully putting together a 9 program where that prevention can be used, not 10 to save the life maybe, not to make that life 11 very much longer, but to let that infant have a 12 little more comfort level. It may be that extra 13 antibiotic; it may be a pain killer at some 14 point, but we want to make that child live out 15 its life to its fullest and in the most 16 comfortable fashion, hoping that around the 17 corner there is a cure for this disease. 18 Now, this is a very strange 19 disease, and last year I mentioned it and I 20 mention it again. It's the only politically 21 protected disease known to man. 39 pages in the 22 Health Law telling us what we cannot do about 23 people who have AIDS, nothing about what we can 4210 1 do. 2 Let's start turning the things 3 around. Let's start talking about what we can 4 do. We can look at reality. People won't 5 forget anything that we're doing up here and 6 understand the political battles that we fight, 7 whether we have budgets, whether we don't have 8 budgets. There's a side -- there's an argument 9 on each side, but when we put our heads in the 10 sand and deny reality, that's inexcusable. When 11 we cause innocent babies to suffer and to lose 12 their lives because we refuse to look at things 13 in a realistic way and give political protection 14 to one disease. If you have syphilis, you're 15 tested for that when you get -- when you're 16 pregnant. You have a battery of other 17 diseases. If you have tuberculosis, we can take 18 you and physically restrain you and hold you in 19 a room and isolate you because the good of the 20 people is to protect against that contagious 21 disease. 22 This is a contagious disease. We 23 have to fight it. We have to stop the ability 4211 1 of this disease to spread amongst our society, 2 and the way you do that is by letting people 3 know what the facts of life are about this 4 disease. If you have it, you have to deal with 5 it. You have to prevent other people from 6 getting it. There are going to be a battery of 7 bills that will be coming to the floor on these 8 issues, the issues of whether ambulance workers 9 have a right to have people tested that have - 10 that they have had an exchange of fluids with. 11 The issue of a woman who is raped, does she have 12 the right to know whether or not that man that 13 has raped her had the AIDS virus and has 14 possibly passed it on to her? 15 But this is probably the most 16 basic issue, an innocent life, a baby that is 17 born that may be able to be helped and may be 18 very possibly in the near future may be able to 19 be saved, but yet we, the Legislature, put our 20 heads in the sand. 21 Now, there's another issue and 22 I'll be quick on this because I know we're 23 running over, the issue of the amendment. 4212 1 Senator Dollinger, I -- you were out of the room 2 but I told you I support fully the concept of 3 counseling, but again the wrong time and the 4 wrong place. There's going to be a bill out on 5 the floor, the Health Department, Senator Tully, 6 Senator Hannon, various people from both houses, 7 both sides of the aisle, are working out a 8 realistic counseling bill, a mandatory 9 counseling bill. All of us are for that. This 10 is the safety net. 11 Suzi Oppenheimer basically said, 12 and I just jotted it down, Suzi, that you take 13 the woman and you say, if you know this, this is 14 what you must do. My bill says, when you take 15 the woman and you say if you know this, this is 16 what you must do, and if she says no, my bill 17 takes over. It saves her child in spite of 18 her. That's what we're trying to do. We want 19 to convince her to take the test. We want to 20 convince her to do all of the things that are 21 necessary, but when she says no, that child that 22 is now a born human being, alive outside of her 23 own body, has a right to the best medical 4213 1 treatment to make its life comfortable, to make 2 its life as long, to extend its life as long as 3 possible. 4 That is all this bill does. It 5 does nothing more. It gives those innocent 6 babies a chance. Senator Gold says it does, a 7 shot. Is it the answer to the problem? No, but 8 we'd better wake up in this state if we're going 9 to deal with this disease and realize that we 10 can't afford to politically protect diseases. 11 It's got to be treated like every other 12 contagious disease. The people that have it 13 have to be treated and have to be dealt with so 14 that they do not spread that disease to other 15 people whether it be their own family or 16 strangers. That's the way we traditionally have 17 dealt with every other contagious disease from 18 tuberculosis on down the line. We've dealt with 19 it effectively and efficiently for the good of 20 the people of this state, and we ought to deal 21 with this disease the same way. No political 22 protection, no special treatment. No 39 pages 23 in the laws of this state telling us what we 4214 1 can't do about AIDS, but yet no other disease 2 has that same volume of prohibitions. 3 I think what we have to do is 4 defeat this amendment. I call for its defeat 5 and pass the bill, Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 question is on the amendment. A vote in the 8 affirmative is a vote for the amendment. A vote 9 in the negative is a vote against the 10 amendment. All those in favor of the amendment 11 signify by saying aye. 12 (Response of "Aye.") 13 Opposed nay. 14 (Response of "Nay.") 15 The amendment fails. 16 Secretary will read the last 17 section of the bill. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 19 act shall take effect September 1st, 1995. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4215 1 Tully to explain his vote. 2 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you, Mr. 3 President. 4 I first want to commend the 5 efforts of all of those who are working to 6 combat the tragedy of HIV and in the case of 7 this particular bill, the transmission of HIV 8 from mothers to children. 9 During my tenure as the Senate 10 Health Committee chairman, I was privileged to 11 sponsor a landmark law to address the serious 12 maternal and child health care problems in this 13 state, plus the frightening epidemic of HIV. I 14 know as well or perhaps better than anyone in 15 this chamber of the severity and complexity of 16 these issues and of the need to support those 17 seeking solutions. 18 Last April, this house 19 unanimously passed legislation that I sponsored 20 to address maternal HIV transmission. That 21 approach required that HIV counseling, 22 appropriate testing with consent and treatment 23 be made a basic standard of prenatal care for 4216 1 all women in this state. 2 That legislation built on the 3 maternal and child HIV initiative included in 4 the NYPHRM V law that we sponsored the previous 5 December. It was further based on the new 6 research results showing an approximate 70 7 percent reduction in risk of maternal to child 8 HIV transmission by administering AZT to 9 pregnant women infected with the virus. 10 It had the support of the state 11 and regional hospital associations, the state 12 Medical Society, the state College of 13 Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the state 14 Nurses' Association and countless other 15 organizations and experts involved in public 16 health, maternal and child health and HIV 17 prevention and treatment. 18 Comments originally made by the 19 state Health Commissioner, Dr. DeBuono, during 20 and after her confirmation proceedings, 21 suggested that she too supported the approach 22 that we took last year. Candidly, I expect 23 based on those and other comments that we would 4217 1 be working jointly towards that end. However, 2 now that the Senate Health Committee voted last 3 month to send us this alternate approach before 4 us today for a vote, the commissioner is 5 apparently now willing to consider it as well. 6 On the bill, Mr. President, I 7 share the concerns that have been expressed that 8 this bill is not the best step for New York 9 infants or women or for the public health at 10 large. The reasons are numerous, have been 11 repeatedly stated and are evident in the many 12 memoranda that have been filed. I know of few 13 other issues that this house has deliberated 14 which have been so complicated and, unfor 15 tunately so broadly misunderstood, especially as 16 reported by the media. 17 Let the record show that I 18 continue to recommend the approach passed 19 unanimously by this house last year or one 20 similar to that. Minimally I would have 21 preferred to have been reviewing for this vote 22 today a bill that had three-way agreement. 23 However, this is not clearly what is before us 4218 1 at this time. I understand the Assembly has not 2 yet agreed to the bill on this floor and that 3 further negotiations are expected; so I'm 4 assuming that this issue in revised form would 5 be revisited for more definitive action as the 6 session continues, and I intend to work towards 7 that end with Senator Velella and the Assembly 8 sponsor, Assemblywoman Mayersohn. 9 While I continue to share the 10 many concerns that have been expressed, I feel 11 that the even greater tragedy would be to allow 12 the issue to continue to languish without 13 resolution. I will, therefore, vote in favor of 14 this bill in order that deliberations might be 15 escalated and an effective state response be 16 developed without further delay. 17 I vote aye. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Tully in the affirmative. 20 Just for -- ladies and gentlemen, 21 we are on a fast roll call. Could I ask all of 22 you who have voted against this to again raise 23 your hand. I'll continue to take explanations. 4219 1 Senator Leichter to explain his 2 vote. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 4 I must say this is about as difficult and as 5 complicated an issue as I have faced in my many 6 years here, because I think the initial logical 7 response is to say, Well, of course you ought to 8 tell the mother, and initially, I think when 9 Assemblywoman Mayersohn approached me on this 10 and let me -- let me pay observance to her and 11 acknowledge how hard she has worked on this 12 issue and how committed she is to it, and also 13 Senator Velella. 14 But if you -- if you then go and 15 speak to the health professionals, the people 16 who are working with a very difficult 17 population, you'd begin to understand or at 18 least to see the arguments against it, and I 19 think what so often happens, we certainly do it 20 in the field of criminal law. We apply the 21 logic that we would apply, that the people that 22 we're trying to reach unfortunately are outside 23 of the mainstream of behavior and there's real 4220 1 concern that they're going to, instead of 2 responding, are in fact, going to take action 3 that's going to be not in the interest of the 4 child or the interest of the mother, and I must 5 assume that it's for this reason. 6 I take a look at the 7 organizations against it. I mean these are not 8 ideologues, these are organizations that work 9 each and every day to combat the AIDS epidemic, 10 whose job, whose function, whose purpose, whose 11 commitment, whose mission is to save lives, to 12 save lives of children: The Medical Society, 13 the American College of Obstetricians and 14 Gynecologists, the American Medical Association, 15 the Hospital Association, doctors and our 16 medical centers. 17 This is not their self 18 interest. I think Senator Tully and others have 19 said it here, that the real answer is the 20 mandatory counseling during pregnancy, and I'm 21 also concerned that by passing this bill we're 22 going to close up shop and we're going to say 23 we've taken care of the issue. 4221 1 Senator Velella says no, we're 2 going to come before you. We're going to have a 3 counseling bill. Why weren't all these bills 4 put out together, if we're looking for a 5 comprehensive unified approach that should have 6 been done. 7 So for these reasons, Mr. 8 President, and following the advice of 9 organizations that I think know much more about 10 this problem and what needs to be done than we 11 do in spite of of all our good facility and all 12 our desire to deal effectively with the problem, 13 I'm voting in the negative. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Leichter in the negative. 16 Senator Jones to explain her 17 vote. 18 SENATOR JONES: Yes. I've 19 listened very carefully today and as I did last 20 year to all the debate and the discussion on 21 this, and I think as I mentioned before I had 22 the opportunity even to visit Harlem Hospital 23 last year and, after talking to the doctors and 4222 1 everybody there, I came away thoroughly 2 convinced that this is not the right way to go, 3 that this bill is the wrong approach, and I 4 truthfully haven't changed my mind on that. 5 Senator Tully is correct in what 6 he's saying, but two things came across to me 7 today. One was a word my colleague on this side 8 said when he used the word "minimum," and you 9 also heard Senator Velella say "fall through the 10 cracks." Confidentiality is clearly not an 11 issue to me. The issue is the spread of the 12 disease for which as of today there is no cure 13 no matter what we want to say about it. 14 The problem is we're putting the 15 cart before the horse. I totally agree that the 16 right approach is to get the woman prenatally, 17 do everything you can, and I think Senator 18 Velella is really saying the same thing because 19 when you get to the end here and you've got this 20 small group of women who refuse or didn't take 21 advantage of that, then clearly we need to step 22 in and do something for that child. 23 So I think it's unfortunate that 4223 1 we didn't put the right thing first which was to 2 use every means we could to get at this woman 3 during pregnancy. 4 I hope that you're -- you're 5 right when you say it will come back and we'll 6 put these two pieces together, because to me 7 what we're voting on today, and I admit it's no 8 reason to vote against it, but what we're voting 9 on is the end of the line, and we miss all the 10 steps up to there. So I'm hoping -- I will 11 support the bill, but I certainly hope that 12 Senator Tully's approach will be incorporated in 13 this, and this will be the end of the line for 14 those women who, for whatever reason, aren't 15 willing to take what we're offering in 16 counseling, treatment prior to the pregnancy, 17 and the child will in the end get whaatever help 18 it may need. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Jones in the affirmative. 21 Senator Dollinger to explain his 22 vote. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 4224 1 President, I think this is the most difficult 2 issue I've been called to vote on in my three 3 years in this chamber. 4 Let me start by saying Senator 5 Velella and I have sparred a number of times on 6 this floor about all kinds of things, but I want 7 to commend him for his closing argument. 8 I think the bottom line, 9 unfortunately, comes down to something very 10 simple and may be it ties in with what Senator 11 Tully said as well, in his well chosen remarks. 12 How do we save babies? That's what we want to 13 do. How do we save 'em? And the problem is, at 14 least as I see it, the science of this is that 15 if you test after birth and the test is 16 positive, you can't save the baby. You can't. 17 If the baby develops HIV, unfortunately, in our 18 current world of science, the baby is going to 19 die. 20 There are all kinds of things we 21 could do for that child, we should do for that 22 child, and I agree with Senator Velella, we're 23 not -- this bill doesn't involve the treatment 4225 1 of that child. Please let's get the appropriate 2 treatment, the best life sustaining treatment 3 that we can to that child. 4 But the inescapable fact is, if 5 you want to save lives, the mother should take 6 AZT during her pregnancy and the way to best 7 accomplish that is to require that she undergo 8 mandatory counseling. I agree with Senator 9 Velella, I agree with Senator Abate and others, 10 some women are going to fall through the 11 cracks. 12 That is a tragedy, and I hope 13 that, when this bill comes back as I know 14 Senator Velella, as I've heard him say it and as 15 I've heard Senator Tully say it, that there will 16 be a focus to try our darnedest to get them into 17 test as quickly as we can. I see that as your 18 intent, Senator Velella, and Assemblywoman 19 Mayersohn, but under the current way the bill is 20 focused, it's all focused after the fact and 21 we've got to push that focus before the fact, 22 and I look forward to voting on a bill and hope 23 working it out with the Health Committee or with 4226 1 anyone who will invite me to participate to make 2 that as much counseling, as much focus as we can 3 when we can save the baby, when we can take AZT 4 during pregnancy and advise the woman the minute 5 the child is born, don't breast feed the baby. 6 Then we're in a position where we can actually 7 save lives. 8 Mr. President, as I said, this is 9 the most difficult vote I've taken. I sometimes 10 sit here and wonder what is the right thing to 11 do. Some little thing inside me says that the 12 balance is ever so slight. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: How do 14 you vote, Senator Dollinger? 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The right 16 thing to do is to vote in the negative. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Dollinger in the negative. 19 Senator Paterson to explain his 20 vote. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 22 I think the jury has spoken; the advocates have 23 spoken, and I think I did accept the decision, 4227 1 and we'll go forward and try to concentrate on 2 the real menace which is the virus which it says 3 16 years ago we never even heard of this, and 4 now it's the leading killer of a number of 5 different age groups. 6 I just wanted to throw in the 7 record that I have in my hand Section 13.5 of 8 the AACPR guidelines for the treatment of HIV. 9 This is the management overview. There are two 10 sections that apply to children. One involves 11 counting the CD4 cells, and the other involves a 12 CT scan and continued monitoring every three 13 months. 14 There is nothing in here that 15 suggests that there be any treatment with 16 antibiotics to prevent Pneumocystis CP pneumonia 17 as Senator Velella suggests. Antibiotics are 18 very dangerous for people to be taken when you 19 don't know whether or not they're sick, and I 20 would suggest, based on past experience now that 21 we are going to have this bill which may become 22 law, that we not treat anyone who we do not know 23 is infected. 4228 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Paterson in the negative. 3 Senator Saland to explain his 4 vote. 5 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. 7 We're not engaging here in an 8 intellectual or existential exercise. This is 9 very real life, and the lives at risk have no 10 say in the matter. The lives at risk are 11 infants. The lives at risk did not ask to come 12 into this world, with the potential for an 13 absolutely God-awful affliction. 14 We have a duty. That duty is to 15 try in some fashion to avoid benignly neglecting 16 and compounding their situation. Senator 17 Velella has provided us with a vehicle. He has 18 provided us with what I think is the right 19 vehicle. He has provided us with the means by 20 which we can say that this exercise, this blind 21 testing taken no further, is almost tantamount 22 to saying that the mother of a child is engaged 23 in Russian roulette, Russian roulette to the 4229 1 extent that there are a number of infants who 2 can be spared becoming AIDS-infected if, in 3 fact, their risk is reduced by their not breast 4 feeding, some of whom, who are in fact HIV 5 positive and subsequently demonstrate the 6 presence of AIDS, can be, through proper 7 treatment, able to sustain a normal life 8 according to the CDC, can live for as many as 9 ten years sustained during the course of that 10 normal life by medical assistance, and who's to 11 say that in that intervening period we do not 12 have the ability through the very same sources, 13 through the very same inventors referred to, of 14 the magnitude referred to by Senator Paterson, 15 to, in fact, come up with some type of a cure. 16 Why do we want to condemn the 17 infant to a life that will either be compounded 18 by the worst kind of deprivation or, in fact, 19 shortened by something akin to a death sentence? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: How do 21 you vote, Senator Saland? 22 SENATOR SALAND: I vote in the 23 affirmative. 4230 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Saland in the affirmative. 3 Senator Marcellino to explain his 4 vote. 5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: This bill 6 gives us the ability to provide some light on a 7 very difficult issue. What I'm hearing is akin 8 to the old joke about the old man who marries 9 the young woman. If she dies, she dies. 10 The opponents of this legislation 11 are saying by wishful thinking we're going to 12 hope that women will take part in voluntary 13 testing and voluntary counseling and that, by 14 merely telling them that you may, possibly, 15 could, maybe because you might get something if 16 you did the wrong thing, we hope they're going 17 to do the right thing and if they don't, we're 18 O.K., because, after all, we gave them the 19 opportunity and they simply didn't do anything. 20 In the meantime, they could go 21 on, engage in unsafe sex and spread this disease 22 all over the place and we're doing nothing about 23 it because somebody says it's not a good idea or 4231 1 it might be dangerous. 2 I suggest that Senator Velella 3 and Assemblyman Mayersohn's bill is the way to 4 go, and I hope in the future we can take my 5 learned colleague, Mike Tully's, legislation and 6 incorporate it and make one really good positive 7 bill on this situation. 8 I vote aye. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Marcellino in the affirmative. Secretary will 11 announce the results. 12 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 13 the negative on Calendar Number 184 are Senators 14 Abate, Connor, Leichter, Markowitz, Montgomery, 15 Oppenheimer, Paterson, Santiago. Ayes 49, nays 16 9. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 21 believe there is a report of -- if we can return 22 to reports of standing committees and I believe 23 there is a report from the Rules Committee. 4232 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 2 a report of the Rules Committee at the desk. We 3 will return to reports of standing committees, 4 ask the Secretary to read. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno, 6 from the Committee on Rules, offers up the 7 following bills directly for third reading: 8 Senate Bill 3781, by Senator 9 Marchi and DiCarlo, an act to incorporate the 10 city of Staten Island, to enact a charter for 11 the city of Staten Island, to provide a period 12 of transition prior to the establishment of the 13 city of Staten Island. 14 Also Print Number 4,000, by the 15 Committee on Rules, an act to amend the Private 16 Housing Finance Law, in relation to the state's 17 involvement in the national Affordable Housing 18 Act Program. 19 Both bills directly for third 20 reading. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Move we adopt 22 the report. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 4233 1 to accept the report. All those in favor 2 signify by saying aye. 3 (Response of "Aye.") 4 Opposed nay. 5 (There was no response.) 6 The report is adopted. 7 Senator Skelos. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. May we 9 please take up Calendar Number 362, S. 4,000. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read Calendar Number 362. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 362, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 14 Number 4,000, an act to amend the Private 15 Housing Finance Law, in relation to the state's 16 involvement in the national Affordable Housing 17 Act Program. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 21 is there a message of necessity and appropria 22 tion at the desk? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4234 1 Skelos, there is a message of appropriation and 2 necessity. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Move we accept. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 5 to accept the messages. All those in favor 6 signify by saying aye. 7 (Response of "Aye.") 8 Opposed nay. 9 (There was no response. ) 10 The message is accepted. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 12 could we read the last section and call the roll 13 for the purposes of Senator Gold voting. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will read the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 20. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Gold, how do you vote? 23 SENATOR GOLD: Negative. 4235 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Gold in the negative. The roll call is 3 withdrawn. The bill is before the house for 4 debate. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Stafford, an explanation has been asked for by, 8 I believe, Senator Leichter. 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President, 10 if I was to make a simple explanation here, 11 which I'm sure is what everyone wants, this bill 12 includes the Article 7 bills which, in effect, 13 implement the budget. 14 Now, I could go from subject to 15 subject, but I know everyone has -- has the 16 outline. By no means am I making light of the 17 importance of this legislation, but I think 18 probably it would serve our purpose best and we 19 would get most -- get the most out of it, and we 20 would have a more constructive discussion if we 21 asked for anyone to talk to specific points and 22 we have experts that will be more than happy to 23 share their knowledge with us. 4236 1 I think Senator Montgomery had a 2 question. 3 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I had an 4 answer to my question. 5 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Let me just, 7 if I may then, just very briefly, on the bill. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Leichter, on the bill. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: I gather that 11 what the Majority has done is put everything, 12 including the kitchen sink into this one bill, 13 what was originally about 20 or 30 Chapter 7 14 bills -- 59. And while, as I understand it from 15 my colleagues on this side of the aisle, 16 certainly some of these we would support, having 17 it as an omnibus bill makes it difficult for us 18 to support the bill. 19 So I believe at least some of us 20 are going to vote in the negative. While there 21 are specific provisions in here that we would 22 support, probably not the best way to approach 23 it, but I also am told this is a one-house bill, 4237 1 and will probably be revisited in maybe a more 2 manageable form at some future time. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Paterson. 5 SENATOR STAFFORD: I might just 6 point out in just a second that this is about 60 7 of the 93 bills that were sent up, and I would 8 point out that through the years that you and I 9 have been here, this isn't the first year that 10 these have been put together. So go ahead. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Paterson. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 14 just briefly, in this bill it appears upon 15 information and belief that there is no Keno in 16 this bill, which is $115 million of the 17 projected amount of money that we would have to 18 spend. In addition, the $110 million revenue 19 from the pension grab, the raid on the pension 20 system, isn't in here. 21 There's no explanation of a 22 school aid formula in this particular bill, and 23 there's no real award of the SUNY and CUNY 4238 1 tuition in this particular legislation. 2 This bill came out today. We, 3 the Minority, haven't had a chance to conference 4 it. We really haven't had a chance to fully 5 examine it. It's the conglomeration of 59 6 Article 7 bills, so it's very difficult, and I 7 recommend a no vote. It is during the day, but 8 it is kind of a voting in the dark sort of 9 process, and all of these issues will have to be 10 agreed upon later between the Governor and the 11 Senate who agree on this, but also with the 12 Assembly, with the Speaker, and including those 13 issues that really are not agreed upon even in 14 this bill because the bill doesn't reveal them. 15 Thank you. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 17 will read the last section. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Slow roll 19 call, Mr. President. 20 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would point 21 out - 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Stafford. 4239 1 SENATOR STAFFORD: Before we get 2 to the roll call, Mr. President, I would point 3 out that there are a number of issues that still 4 have to be settled. We mentioned Quick Draw. 5 There's a difference of opinion. That will be 6 discussed. 7 I would point out that I remember 8 being here at a time when -- Mr. President, I 9 know I'm boring, but if we could have just a 10 speck of order. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You raise 12 a very good point, Senator Stafford. Senator 13 Stafford has the floor. I ask the members and 14 the staff to please take their seats and please 15 listen to the debate. 16 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would just 17 point out that, in the past, it has not been - 18 it has not been or it has been the practice 19 often to pass various bills and then there would 20 be additional bills, and I'm sure there still 21 will be additional. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the last section. 4240 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 20. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. Go ahead; call the role. 5 Slow roll call requested. Call 6 the roll slowly. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 8 (There was no response. ) 9 Senator Babbush. 10 (There was no response. ) 11 Senator Bruno. 12 (Affirmative indication. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Aye. 14 Senator Connor. 15 SENATOR CONNOR: No. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook. 17 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator 19 DeFrancisco. 20 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo. 22 SENATOR DiCARLO: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator 4241 1 Dollinger. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 3 President, to explain my vote. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Dollinger, to explain his vote. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And I'll be 7 very brief, Mr. President. 8 The last time I was asked to vote 9 on one of these big huge budgets, lo and behold, 10 it had all kinds of things tucked in it, all 11 kinds of language, and I had the experience of 12 being accused on television of being voting in 13 favor of rapists, all kinds of nefarious things 14 I didn't know anything about, because it was 15 tucked into this budget. 16 So what I'd like to do is just 17 exempt a couple things that I would favor: The 18 provision that deals with the testing of 19 convicted rapists, oh, I don't have a problem 20 with that; some of the criminal justice things 21 that are also included in this with respect to 22 work release. I'm not against those things 23 either. 4242 1 I'm against this overall bill 2 because about 550 pages adopt the budget that we 3 passed that I voted against. So I hope I'm not 4 stepping in a favorite and familiar trap of my 5 colleagues on the other side of the aisle in 6 their television ads, but let it be known that 7 there are parts of this bill that I favor and 8 parts that I'm opposed to. 9 Overall I'm going to vote no. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Dollinger in the negative. Secretary continue 12 to call the roll. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 14 SENATOR ESPADA: No. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley. 16 (There was no response. ) 17 Senator Galiber excused. 18 Senator Gold voting in the 19 negative earlier today. 20 Senator Gonzalez. 21 SENATOR GONZALEZ: No. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman 23 excused. 4243 1 Senator Hannon. 2 (There was no response. ) 3 Senator Hoblock. 4 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann 6 excused. 7 Senator Holland. 8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson. 10 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Jones. 12 SENATOR JONES: Explain my vote. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Jones to explain her vote. 15 SENATOR JONES: I'm making the 16 supposition, since the budget wasn't real, that 17 this document that goes with it also must not 18 be, but I will have to echo what my colleague on 19 the other side of the aisle certainly doesn't 20 mean it if it says here on page 187 or something 21 that I haven't read yet, that you or that I do 22 believe in letting rapists go free or any such 23 thing, I'm not in favor of that. 4244 1 So when it's real, I'll think 2 about voting for it. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Jones in the negative. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger. 6 SENATOR KRUGER: No. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 8 SENATOR KUHL: Aye. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack. 10 SENATOR LACK: Aye. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin. 12 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle. 14 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell. 16 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator 18 Leichter. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: No. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy. 21 SENATOR LEVY: Aye. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous. 23 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye. 4245 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese. 2 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator 4 Marcellino. 5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 7 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator 9 Markowitz. 10 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz. 12 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez. 14 SENATOR MENDEZ: No. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator 16 Montgomery. 17 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula. 19 SENATOR NANULA: No. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator 21 Nozzolio. 22 (There was no response. ) 23 Senator Onorato. 4246 1 SENATOR ONORATO: No. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator 3 Oppenheimer. 4 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan. 6 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Paterson. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: No. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present. 11 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 13 SENATOR RATH: Aye. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 15 SENATOR SALAND: Aye. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Santiago. 18 (There was no response. ) 19 Senator Sears. Senator Sears. 20 SENATOR SEARS: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward. 22 SENATOR SEWARD: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos. 4247 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 3 SENATOR SMITH: No. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Solomon. 5 SENATOR SOLOMON: Mr. President, 6 to explain my vote. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Solomon, to explain his vote. 9 SENATOR SOLOMON: We've been in 10 this chamber for a long time today and really 11 instead of debating this bill, I'd just like to 12 highlight a couple of points about why I'm going 13 to vote against it. 14 Among other reasons, it takes 15 $220 million away from the Mass Transit 16 Operating Funds which the MTA was planning to 17 use in 1996-97. The net result will be a fare 18 increase for the MTA region, in addition to the 19 New York City subway and bus fares. In addition 20 there is no TAP schedule that that tells us what 21 will happen with the money for TAP. 22 And what additionally concerns me 23 is what again is going to happen to those people 4248 1 in New York City, the home health care 2 recipients, regarding a schedule that has been 3 implemented in this piece of legislation which, 4 in fact, is very unfair, where the average 5 number of hours received by those recipients is 6 154 hours a month. This is basically going to 7 tell the localities, Well, we're not going to 8 pay you for that 40 percent of that 154 hours. 9 We are, in fact, going to cut it down so you'll 10 get a certain percentage up to 80 and then 11 you'll get a reduced percentage up to 120 hours 12 and then after the 120 hours those last 30 hours 13 nothing. 14 As I said, this is a bill that's 15 probably going to result in a fair increase in 16 New York City and down the line and it's 17 inherently an unfair piece of legislation. 18 That's why I'm going to vote no. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Solomon in the negative. Secretary will 21 continue to call the roll. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 23 SENATOR SPANO: Aye. 4249 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2 Stachowski. 3 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: No. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator 5 Stafford. 6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Stavisky. 9 SENATOR STAVISKY: No. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo. 11 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully. 13 SENATOR TULLY: Aye. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella. 15 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker. 17 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon. 19 (There was no response. ) 20 Senator Wright. 21 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will call the absentees. 4250 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 2 SENATOR ABATE: No. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush. 4 (There was no response.) 5 Senator Farley. 6 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon. 8 SENATOR HANNON: Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Hannon to explain his vote. 11 SENATOR HANNON: Yes, Mr. 12 President. 13 There has been a considerable 14 amount of work, time, effort and that by members 15 of the Senate collectively and the Majority to 16 take what was a dramatic and drastic and far too 17 draconian proposals that have come up from the 18 second floor in terms of the budget with regard 19 to the Medicaid cuts and certainly there will be 20 people in every part of the state who said, I 21 wish this would happen or that had happened to 22 make things better. 23 But we have tried throughout all 4251 1 parts of the health care system to alleviate 2 what would have been much more dramatic pain, 3 nursing homes, hospitals, home health care and 4 we have provided a restoration, long-term care 5 program, the nursing home without walls. 6 We have restored many items that 7 people had thought ought to be restored and we 8 have recast the personal care provisions so that 9 all of the localities not only in cutting down 10 the unnecessarily costly hours but keeping those 11 savings if they achieve certain goals. 12 Along with that, we have provided 13 some incentive, a long overdue enactment which 14 we're seeking of provision of funding long-term 15 care. We do that by virtue of a tax deduction. 16 We also provide stability to hold in place the 17 entire health care system by extending the 18 NYPHRM system for another year. 19 There are significant changes we 20 have made to the Article 7 bill that we received 21 and we would hope that we would receive -- we 22 would receive everybody's approval of this. 23 Thank you. I vote yes. 4252 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Hannon in the affirmative. Secretary will 3 continue to call the absentees. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator 5 Nozzolio. 6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Santiago. 9 (There was no response. ) 10 Senator Waldon. 11 (There was no response. ) 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 13 the results. 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 35, nays 15 21. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 Senator Skelos. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 20 is there any housekeeping? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We do 22 have some housekeeping. 23 Senator LaValle. 4253 1 SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President, 2 on page 26, I offer the following amendments to 3 Calendar Number 347 -- 341, Senate Print Number 4 3569, and ask that said bill retain its place on 5 the Third Reading Calendar. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 7 Amendments to Calendar Number 341 are received 8 and accepted. Bill will retain its place on the 9 Third Reading Calendar. 10 Senator Bruno. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 12 I'd like to announce a Republican Conference at 13 10:00 a.m. tomorrow, Wednesday morning, in Room 14 332, and Mr. President, there being no further 15 business to come before the Senate, I move we 16 stand adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, at 17 11:00 a.m. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 19 will be a Republican Majority Conference in the 20 Majority Conference Room, Wednesday at 10:00 21 a.m. sharp. 22 Without objection, the Senate 23 stands adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, at 4254 1 11:00 a.m. 2 (Whereupon, at 7:05 p.m., the 3 Senate adjourned.) 4 5 6 7