Monday, April 17, 1995

4641 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 April 17, 1995 10 3:01 p.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 4642 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senate will come to order. Ask the members to 4 find their chairs. I'll ask everybody in the 5 chamber to rise and join with me in saying the 6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. 7 (The assemblage repeated the 8 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 9 We are very pleased today to be 10 joined by the Reverend Peter G. Young of the 11 Blessed Sacrament Church of Bolting Landing to 12 deliver the invocation. 13 Reverend Young. 14 REVEREND PETER YOUNG: Let us 15 pray. We pray today for all of our New York 16 State people, that their wealth and their power 17 might become a force for peace rather than 18 conflict, a source of hope rather than 19 discontent, as an agent of friendship rather 20 than enmity. May the actions of this Senate 21 body be the example and may we then continue in 22 Your work now and forever. Amen. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Reading 4643 1 of the Journal. 2 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 3 Sunday, April 16th. The Senate met pursuant to 4 adjournment, Senator Bruno in the Chair. The 5 Journal of Saturday, April 15th, was read and 6 approved. On motion, the Senate adjourned. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing 8 no objection, the Journal stands approved as 9 read. 10 Presentation of petitions. 11 Messages from the Assembly. 12 Messages from the Governor. 13 Reports of standing committees. 14 Reports of select committees. 15 Communications and reports from 16 state officers. 17 Motions and resolutions. 18 The Chair recognizes Senator 19 Wright. 20 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, 21 on page number 29, I offer the following 22 amendments to Calendar 229, Senate Print Number 23 3488, and ask that said bill retain its place on 4644 1 the Third Reading Calendar and request that the 2 star be removed. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 amendments are received and adopted. The star 5 will be removed at the request of the sponsor. 6 The Chair recognizes Senator 7 DiCarlo. 8 SENATOR DiCARLO: Yes, Mr. 9 President. On behalf of Senator Velella, please 10 place a sponsor's star on Calendar Number 222. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: A 12 sponsor's star is placed on Calendar Number 222. 13 The Chair recognizes Senator 14 Bruno. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: I would like to 16 call an immediate meeting of Finance in Room 17 332, and that meeting to be immediately followed 18 by a Rules Committee meeting in the same room, 19 332. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 21 will be an immediate meeting of the Senate 22 Finance Committee in the Majority Conference 23 Room, Room 332. At the conclusion of the 4645 1 Finance Committee meeting, there will be an 2 immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in the 3 same room, Room 332. 4 Senator Bruno. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 6 can we now take up the non-controversial 7 calendar? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Secretary will read the non-controversial 10 calendar. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 157, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 2872, an 13 act to amend the General City Law and the Penal 14 Law, in relation to creating the crimes of 15 urinating or begging. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 18 bill aside. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 276, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 3480, an 21 act to amend the Administrative Code of the city 22 of New York and the Emergency Tenant Protection 23 Act of 1974. 4646 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 3 bill aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 285, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 2859, an 6 act to amend the Civil Service Law, in relation 7 to suspension of pension. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Secretary will read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 292, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 499-A, an 20 act to amend the General Obligations Law, in 21 relation to exoneration of certain police 22 officers. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4647 1 Secretary will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act - 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 5 President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Paterson. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 9 we want to know if we can -- might lay this 10 aside for a day. We have a unique opportunity 11 if we do that, but I don't want to tell you what 12 that opportunity is, but if we could lay it 13 aside for a day, we would - 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 DiCarlo, a request has been made to lay the bill 16 aside for the day. 17 SENATOR DiCARLO: For Senator 18 Paterson, that's okay. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 will be laid aside for the day. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 297, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 3009, an 23 act directing the city of New York to refund to 4648 1 certain not-for-profit organizations. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Secretary will read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll.) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 11 is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 298, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 3282, an 14 act to amend Chapter 738 of the Laws of 1988, 15 amending the Administrative Code of the city of 16 New York. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 Secretary will read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll.) 4649 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 305, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 2262, an 6 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 7 relation to having care or control of a motor 8 vehicle while impaired by alcohol. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 Secretary will read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 12 act shall take effect on the 1st day of 13 November. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 319, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2109, an 22 act to amend the Surrogates Court Procedure Act 23 and the Domestic Relations Law. 4650 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Secretary will read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This 4 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll.) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 10 is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 324, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 3642, an act 13 to amend the Environmental Conservation Law, in 14 relation to project ineligibility. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Secretary will read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll.) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 4651 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 331, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 2315, an act 4 to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in 5 relation to the producer referendum. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Secretary will read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll.) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 15 is passed. 16 Senator Bruno, that completes the 17 non-controversial calendar. 18 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 19 can we now take up the controversial calendar? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 Secretary will read the - 22 SENATOR BRUNO: Can we go right 23 to Calendar Number 276? 4652 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Secretary will read the controversial calendar, 3 beginning with Calendar Number 276. 4 THE SECRETARY: On page number 5 18, Calendar 276, by Senator Leibell, Senate 6 Print 3480, an act to amend the Administrative 7 Code of the city of New York and the Emergency 8 Tenant Protection Act of 1974. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Leibell, an explanation has been asked for by 12 Senator Paterson. 13 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr. 14 President. This is an act to amend the 15 Administrative Code of the city of New York, the 16 Emergency Tenant Protection Act of 1974, in 17 relation to determining the primary residency, 18 and it also -- the Tax Law, in relation to the 19 verification of residents. The goal of the 20 legislation is to provide a fair and effective 21 mechanism for determining primary residency. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 Secretary will read the last section. 4653 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 7 the results when tabulated. 8 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 9 the negative on Calendar Number 276 are Senators 10 Abate, Bruno, Leichter, Markowitz, Mendez, 11 Onorato, Paterson, Smith, Solomon and Waldon. 12 Ayes 38, nays 10. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 Senator Bruno. 16 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 17 can we now take up Calendar Number 175, by 18 Senator Velella? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 Secretary will read Calendar Number 175. 21 THE SECRETARY: On page 13, 22 Calendar Number 175, by Senator Velella, Senate 23 Print 2872, an act to amend the General City Law 4654 1 and the Penal Law, in relation to creating the 2 crimes of urinating or defecating in public. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Velella, an explanation has been asked for by 5 Senator Paterson. 6 SENATOR VELELLA: This is a very 7 basic, simple bill and it's basically 8 self-explanatory. 9 What it does is it creates the 10 crime of urinating or defecating in public and 11 of aggressive begging in cities where there is a 12 commercial zone and, basically, that's what the 13 bill does. It doesn't provide that we put 14 people in jail for this. It provides the 15 alternative of a fine or community service, so 16 that we're not locking people up for this. 17 That basically is the bill, 18 Senator. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 20 recognizes Senator Paterson. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 22 if Senator Velella would yield for a question? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4655 1 Velella, do you yield for a question from 2 Senator Paterson? 3 SENATOR VELELLA: Certainly. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 5 Senator yields. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 7 Velella, there's a case on appeal right now, 8 Portinger versus Miami, and some of the dicta 9 from that court really states that it's almost a 10 violation of the Eighth Amendment to, in all 11 public places, deny certain -- what would be 12 considered to be functions such as sleeping or 13 lying down or sitting down, which occur all over 14 the place. In other words, punishing people 15 would be cruel and unusual punishment. 16 Now, while that is the case, 17 there's another case I looked at from 1994, 18 Roulette versus Seattle. Now, in Seattle, 19 they're doing very similar things that your bill 20 proposes right here in New York. They 21 designated a certain amount of the area -- the 22 sidewalk area, during the daytime, if people sit 23 or lie down in those particular areas, then it's 4656 1 considered to be a violation of the law. 2 Now, what my question to you 3 involves is an explanation from you as to how we 4 rationalize these two tests. In other words, if 5 we're going to be making this against the law in 6 one -- in -- by setting aside in your bill 15 7 percent of the land mass of the sidewalk area, 8 what we are going to be doing is -- let's say, 9 in New York City, we could make the entire 10 borough of Manhattan part of that area. It's 11 pretty much a commercial strip or a great deal 12 of the borough is a commercial area, not as 13 residential as Kings County and Queens County. 14 What I'm saying is how are we 15 going to avoid the Eighth Amendment test where 16 the exercise of law enforcement for these types 17 of penalties creates a cruel and unusual 18 punishment? 19 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, Senator, 20 again, we have this problem whenever we discuss 21 legislation. I don't know what the Supreme 22 Court is ultimately going to decide, and I think 23 they will decide on the side of common sense, 4657 1 common decency and the ability of local 2 governments to control their own environments. 3 We have bills and laws that will 4 limit people where they can smoke because they 5 pollute people's air so why not where they can 6 defecate or urinate? Certainly that pollutes 7 the environment. I think that we have just as 8 much a right to stop people from defecating in 9 public places as smoking in public places. I 10 hope the Supreme Court agrees with me. If they 11 don't, we'll come back and we'll revise the law 12 and we'll do it so that it's constitutionally 13 permissive, but we have to be in a position 14 where we do what we think is right, and if the 15 court should determine that it's wrong, we'll 16 come back and revisit it and make it 17 constitutionally allowable as we've done with 18 the death penalty, as we've done with many, many 19 bills that we've passed where the courts said 20 they didn't think we were doing the right thing. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Paterson. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 4658 1 I'm sure you'll agree that that was a very fair 2 answer and a very honest answer and, if Senator 3 Velella would yield for one last question. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Does 5 Senator Velella yield again? The Senator 6 continues to yield. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 8 Velella, I see four ways to prosecute 9 individuals under the law currently, criminal 10 law sections 265.25, 265.20, 165.30, for 11 violations such as harassment, loitering. Do 12 you think that we need this additional law, 13 being that we have protections already built 14 in? 15 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, Senator, 16 I really think that it's time that we make a 17 statement that we're not going to tolerate in 18 the major cities of this state anti-social 19 behavior, behavior that invades the ability of 20 local governments to promote the tourism, 21 promote the ability of commercial enterprises 22 and to really just stand up and say to those 23 people in society who wish to have anti-social 4659 1 behavior that we're not going to tolerate it in 2 the areas of our city that are commercially 3 invigorating and supporting the ability of the 4 city to survive. 5 So I think that this is going to 6 be a very positive step in making a statement 7 that anti-social behavior will not be tolerated 8 in our cities. If it were up to me, I would ban 9 it anywhere. That's my personal preference, 10 that type of behavior but, unfortunately, we 11 have to try to deal with what we can pass in 12 this Legislature and what is permissible by 13 local ordinance. The city will determine where 14 these zones will be, where this type of 15 anti-social behavior will not be tolerated and 16 will be punished by community service. 17 Again, we're not putting people 18 in jail. We're saying, "Either act properly and 19 behave within an acceptable social pattern or, 20 if you can't do that, you're going to have to do 21 community service." 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Paterson. 4660 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 2 Senator Velella. 3 Mr. President, I believe Senator 4 Waldon wanted to make a - 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes. The 6 Chair recognizes Senator Waldon. 7 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 8 much, Mr. President. 9 Would the gentleman from Bronx 10 County yield to a question or two? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Velella, do you yield to a question from Senator 13 Waldon? 14 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, Senator. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Senator yields. 17 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 18 much, Mr. President. 19 Senator Velella, have you 20 traveled in Europe at all? 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, Senator. 22 I have had the opportunity many years ago to 23 travel in Europe. 4661 1 SENATOR WALDON: In that travel, 2 have you happened to travel through France? 3 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 4 SENATOR WALDON: Were you ever in 5 Paris? 6 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 7 SENATOR WALDON: Are you -- in 8 your frame of reference or in your recollection, 9 can you recall that there were public toilets 10 almost everywhere in France? 11 SENATOR VELELLA: I can't say 12 almost - 13 SENATOR WALDON: In Paris? 14 SENATOR VELELLA: I can't say 15 almost everywhere but, yes, I did see the public 16 toilets along the streets of the main 17 thoroughfares in Paris. I was hoping to go 18 there this week, but we were supposed to be on 19 vacation, so I can't make it. 20 SENATOR WALDON: You were on the 21 same flight as me. 22 Senator, is there any provision 23 in this legislation to provide for public 4662 1 toilets? 2 SENATOR VELELLA: The answer to 3 that is no, and the reason for that, although 4 you didn't ask me, is because it's not 5 necessary. The City can do that now without 6 having to have permissible legislation for 7 public toilets, and they have been experimenting 8 with that, as I understand it. They have the 9 authority from the state to do a local ordinance 10 to allow for public toilets. 11 SENATOR WALDON: May I continue, 12 Mr. President? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Do you 14 continue to yield, Senator Velella? 15 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 Senator continues to yield. 18 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 19 much, Mr. President. 20 Lastly, Senator Velella, in your 21 creating this proposal for our consideration, 22 was there a specific target group that it was 23 directed towards? 4663 1 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, the only 2 target group, Senator, that I would be 3 targeting, would be the people who would like to 4 defecate in public, who would like to urinate in 5 public and who would like to lie down in 6 doorways, whomever they may be. I don't 7 differentiate. Anyone that lies down in a 8 doorway, anyone who defecates in public or 9 urinates in public ought to fall under the 10 parameters of this law. 11 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 12 much. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Waldon on the bill. 15 SENATOR WALDON: On the bill. 16 Thank you very much, Senator Velella. 17 Those people, who I have been 18 advised most recently fall subject to this kind 19 of activity, to a great extent are those who are 20 homeless; secondarily, other folk who are caught 21 in a bind, meaning someone who has driven a long 22 distance and has to stop. You see them 23 oftentimes on the highways. Men will stop their 4664 1 cars and open the door in a kind of kitty-corner 2 way. Those people certainly are not evidencing 3 criminal behavior or a desire to violate the 4 law. They are in a state of personal 5 emergency. So I wouldn't categorize those good 6 citizens who are middle class, hard-working, 7 taxpaying, law abiding in the same manner, 8 perhaps -- and this may be my own bias -- as 9 those who may do this more readily. 10 However, those who are practicing 11 this, if that's an appropriate way to describe 12 it, for the most part, are the homeless. I 13 think that the better approach is to create sit 14 uations where the homeless will have adequate 15 toilet facilities, and I would have appreciated 16 very much if your legislation had either provid 17 ed that in a financial sense or given a direc 18 tion to the cities, the local municipalities, to 19 take care of this concern for this human 20 condition. 21 Thank you very much, Mr. 22 President. 23 SENATOR ONORATO: Mr. President. 4665 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 2 recognizes Senator Onorato. 3 SENATOR ONORATO: Will Senator 4 Velella yield to a question, please? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Velella, do you yield to Senator Onorato? 7 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Senator yields. 10 SENATOR ONORATO: How will this 11 affect -- as I'm sure most of us at one time or 12 another have witnessed or maybe even partici 13 pated ourself, with a young child walking along 14 the street and has to urinate and the mother or 15 father simply brings the child to the curb; who 16 will then be responsible for assisting the child 17 in urinating on the curb? 18 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, under 19 the laws that exist -- not this bill -- I would 20 assume that the parent who is taking that child 21 and making them urinate or defecate on the 22 public sidewalk or in the public streets or main 23 public thoroughfare in public view -- and I 4666 1 point out that this is where people can see the 2 act going on -- ought to be publicly punished 3 for that by being given a ticket or violation 4 order. It's not the kind of thing you want to 5 encourage people and young children to have the 6 behavior of going to the bathroom on the public 7 streets. I think that's basic common sense and 8 it makes sense. Parents ought not to be telling 9 their children to do it. Children ought not to 10 be growing up thinking it's acceptable. 11 If it's an emergency situation, 12 again, it's like a lot of other laws. Police 13 officers have some discretion as to whether or 14 not to issue a ticket, but bottom line, if 15 you're doing it, yes, you ought to be given a 16 citation. 17 You're not going to jail. You're 18 not being carted away in handcuffs. You're be 19 ing given a citation for doing something that's 20 unhealthy and socially unacceptable, and you 21 endanger the health and well-being of society in 22 general when you do these things on public 23 streets and let it stay around. Certainly, I 4667 1 believe a lot more dangerous than a puff of 2 smoke that you might happen to catch as you're 3 passing through a building. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 5 recognizes Senator Paterson. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 7 I have to -- as you may know, the canons of 8 ethics require lawyers to reveal information 9 when it comes to the lawyer in the case even 10 though the information may be detrimental to the 11 case, but the lawyer has this responsibility to 12 the court. 13 So I would like Senator Velella 14 to know that, although I plan on voting against 15 this bill, some very important information has 16 come across my desk from another member of my 17 conference who has some ideas about how to 18 address some of these problems, and just in case 19 this bill is not signed into law this week, 20 Senator, I suggest that you consult with my 21 colleague, and she has some extremely creative 22 ideas. I don't know if they comply with the 23 Eighth Amendment, but they certainly would stop 4668 1 public urinating. 2 SENATOR VELELLA: I would be 3 happy to. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Dollinger. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would Senator 8 Velella yield to just one question? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Velella, do you yield to just one question? 11 SENATOR VELELLA: Certainly, 12 Senator. For you, any time. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The urban 14 commercial zone in which the lying down or 15 sitting on the sidewalk is going to be prohib 16 ited, what's to prevent the homeless person, as 17 I think Senator Waldon properly describes it, 18 from simply walking right outside that zone 19 limit and camping out on the sidewalk, sitting 20 down, lying on the sidewalk? By virtue of their 21 homelessness, they tend to be highly transient. 22 Aren't they going to find the -- stop right next 23 to the zone where they can camp out and sit and 4669 1 lie on the sidewalk? 2 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, my 3 response to that is that you may believe that 4 the homeless cannot be educated. I don't 5 believe that. I believe by providing good 6 examples and providing good legislation and 7 letting them know that they're breaking the law, 8 that simply because they're homeless, doesn't 9 mean they have an intention to break the law or 10 to be anti-social. We help by setting an 11 example and setting a standard of conduct that 12 they will follow, and I believe they will learn 13 and follow that. Maybe you don't, but I do. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the bill, 15 Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Dollinger on the bill. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm not so 19 sure I agree with Senator Velella. I think 20 we've spent a lot of time and a lot of groups 21 have worked with the homeless for years to try 22 to educate them, to educate them about their 23 behavior. Part of the problem is they remain 4670 1 homeless and, I think, oftentimes they resist - 2 by virtue of mental illness or other factors, 3 they resist the simple instructions perhaps than 4 others would. 5 I'm going to vote in favor of 6 this bill. I would, however, call Senator 7 Velella's attention to one portion of it. I 8 read the aggressive begging section, and I would 9 suggest that there might be 211 possible 10 misdemeanorants who would constitute the members 11 of the New York State Assembly and State Senate 12 who have spent maybe, perhaps, an unfortunate 13 part of our political lives agressively begging 14 for money, not in a charitable spirit but 15 perhaps in the spirit of raising political 16 campaign funds, and the definition may be broad 17 enough to include all of us as potential 18 misdemeanorants in that category as well. 19 I would be voting in favor of the 20 bill. I still have some serious questions as to 21 how it will work, but I'll vote in favor. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 Secretary will read the last section. 4671 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This 2 act shall take effect on the 1st day of 3 November. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll.) 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 8 the results when tabulated. 9 Senator Gold to explain his vote. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. 12 To be very brief, Senator 13 Velella, a number of years ago -- this is a true 14 case -- a lawyer was in the New York City subway 15 where you know you're not allowed to 16 expectorate, and in an emergency choking, he 17 did, in fact, spit on the tracks. One of the 18 more intelligent -- or less intelligent 19 policemen around actually gave him a summons for 20 spitting in the subway even though it was an 21 emergency. 22 So, Senator, you know, it's nice 23 to talk about passing laws and then saying 4672 1 "We'll leave it up to the cops in street." I 2 think that's just the wrong thing to do. We 3 ought to be passing laws that are sensible and 4 enforceable, and not leave it so that cops can 5 do what they want to in the street. 6 I like cops. I support cops. 7 Having said that, I assume that's the way I'm 8 supposed to start. I'm sorry I said it in the 9 end. I think this bill is not really well 10 thought out. 11 I vote no. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Gold in the negative. 14 The Secretary has asked all those 15 members who are voting in the negative, please 16 raise your hand once again. 17 Senator Maltese, to explain your 18 vote? 19 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes, Mr. 20 President. 21 It's all very well for some 22 members of the Minority to demean this type of 23 legislation. The unfortunate -- the unfortunate 4673 1 situation is that in many of the areas that we 2 represent, many of the urban areas, this is 3 absolutely necessary, and while some may take 4 Senator Velella to task for proposing this 5 excellent legislation which I co-sponsor, at the 6 same time, since the daily papers have indicated 7 that this legislation exists, we have received, 8 I know, in my office and in many of the other 9 offices, nothing but approbation from our 10 constituents. 11 So the unfortunate situation is 12 that it is necessary. We are taking steps to 13 attempt to alleviate a situation that is very 14 detracting from our communities, takes away from 15 the good order in our communities, and rather 16 than attack those or demean those who propose 17 the legislation, they should come up with 18 alternate legislation. 19 I vote aye, Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Maltese in the affirmative. Announce the 22 results. 23 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 4674 1 the negative on Calendar Number 175 are Senators 2 Abate, Gold, Leichter, Paterson, Smith and 3 Senator Waldon. Also, Senator Galiber. Also, 4 Senator Mendez. Ayes 41, nays 8. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6 is passed. 7 Senator Skelos, that completes 8 the controversial calendar. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Gold, why do you rise? 12 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. While I was 13 at the Finance Committee meeting, apparently we 14 passed Calendar Number 276, and I ask that I be 15 recorded in the negative. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 17 objection, Senator Gold will be recorded in the 18 negative on Calendar Number 276. 19 Senator Galiber. 20 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes. I would 21 like to request unanimous -- request consent to 22 be recorded in the negative on 276 also. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 4675 1 objection, Senator Galiber will be recorded in 2 the negative on Calendar Number 276. 3 Senator Nanula. 4 SENATOR NANULA: Mr. President, I 5 too would like to be recorded in the negative, 6 unanimous consent, on Calendar Number 276. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 8 objection, Senator Nanula will be recorded in 9 the negative on Calendar Number 276. 10 Senator Kruger. 11 SENATOR KRUGER: Mr. President, I 12 as well would like to be recorded in the 13 negative on 276. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 15 objection, Senator Kruger will be recorded in 16 the negative on Calendar Number 276. 17 Senator Skelos. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 19 if we could return to reports of standing 20 committees. I believe there's a report from the 21 Rules Committee. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You're 23 correct, Senator Skelos, there is a report of 4676 1 the Rules Committee at the desk. 2 The Secretary will read. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno, 4 from the Committee on Rules, offers the 5 following report: Senate Bill 4205, Budget 6 Bill, an act to provide for payments to 7 municipalities and providers of medical 8 services. 9 Senate Print 4206, Budget Bill, 10 making an appropriation for the support of 11 government. 12 Senate Print 4207, Budget Bill, 13 an act making an appropriation for the support 14 of government. 15 Senate Print 4208, Budget Bill, 16 an act to provide for payments to vendors under 17 the Women, Infants and Children program and 18 making an appropriation therefor. 19 All bills recorded directly to 20 third reading. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 22 move that we adopt the Rules Committee report. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4677 1 motion is to accept the Rules Committee report 2 as read. All those in favor signify by saying 3 aye. 4 (Response of "Aye".) 5 Opposed, nay. 6 (There was no response.) 7 The Rules report is adopted. 8 Senator Skelos. 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr. 10 President. If we could take up Calendar Number 11 434, Senate 4205. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar 13 -- the Secretary will read Calendar Number 434. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 434, Budget Bill, Senate Print 4205, an act to 16 provide for payments to municipalities and to 17 providers of medical services under the Medical 18 Assistance Program. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Stafford, an explanation has been asked for by 22 Senator Paterson on Calendar 434. 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr. 4678 1 President. 2 This is a Medicaid emergency 3 appropriation. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Stafford, excuse me just a minute. Could we 6 have some order in the chamber, please. An 7 awful lot of conversations going on. It's very 8 difficult to hear. Please show a little respect 9 to your colleagues who want to debate the bill. 10 The Chair recognizes Senator 11 Stafford for an explanation. 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr. 13 President. 14 As we have done in the past, this 15 is a Medicaid emergency appropriation bill. 16 It appropriates 140 million from 17 the general fund for Medicaid payments to 18 vendors due on April 19, 1995. 19 It also appropriates federal 20 funds amounting to 165 million for a total of 21 305 million. Passage of this bill will ensure 22 payment of the April 19th Medicaid cycle. 23 The general fund appropriation 4679 1 includes 115 million for Medicaid and 25 million 2 for income maintenance which will be used for 3 the local share of upstate Medicaid payments. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Leichter, why do you rise? 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: I want to 8 inquire because I don't believe the bills have 9 been distributed yet. 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: They should 11 be. They're in the black book, Senator. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: These 13 bills were - 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Were they put 15 in the book? I see. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: They're 17 right on your desk, Senator Leichter. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. I 19 thought they had been -- yes, they are in the 20 back of the black book. 21 Thank you. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Gold. 4680 1 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 2 President. 3 I'll be brief. This is one of a 4 package, and I guess the bills are necessary 5 because of the failure of the -- this house and 6 the Governor to be able to put together a 7 budget. So I, on this occasion, will probably 8 vote for them, but I wanted to make a couple of 9 brief points. 10 First of all, I can't forget the 11 press releases that came out of this house by 12 essentially the same group of people, because 13 there are few new faces on your side, but it's 14 essentially the same group, and those press 15 releases were blaming Mario Cuomo for not 16 passing a budget on time and, as a matter of 17 fact, not only did you blame Mario Cuomo, but 18 you wouldn't agree to a budget on time because 19 some of you said you were fighting for things 20 that you thought were right and, after all, the 21 budget was late, but you were fighting for what 22 was right. 23 Now, I understand that the 4681 1 Assembly Democrats, thank the Lord, are fighting 2 for what many of us think is right and you say 3 it's their fault. Well, that's not the way 4 logic works. The fault has to be under the 5 logic of the Majority in this house, the fault 6 of George Pataki and Joe Bruno and all of you. 7 As a matter of fact, while I have 8 the luxury of being with my family and not 9 having to worry about leaders' meetings, my 10 understanding is the Governor has not even 11 called a leaders' meeting for five or six days. 12 Today while the state has no 13 budget, the Governor, as I understand, is not in 14 town. I understand he is flying around and 15 doing some campaigning in different places on 16 the budget, but I guess it's still in the nature 17 of campaigning and, of course, I think that all 18 of this is fascinating from another point of 19 view. 20 I asked the question in Finance 21 whether or not any of these bills provided for 22 the Senate to make payments on contracts. We 23 are past April 1st. We all have district 4682 1 offices. I assume that they are leased. Those 2 landlords don't work for the state. They just 3 in good faith assume that, if they gave property 4 to us, their rents would be paid and, of course, 5 nobody seems to worry about that. 6 But what I worry about most of 7 all is the fact that the bills are patently 8 unfair and they are absurd, politically absurd. 9 The concept that we are not working as a 10 Legislature because we do not agree is childish 11 and it's absurd. 12 Not only that, I mean, I can take 13 it. You know, you want to withhold my check. I 14 know I'm getting the check. Everybody knows I'm 15 getting the check. It's in the Constitution I'm 16 getting the check, but what is unfair is that, 17 while we are at least statutorily and constitu 18 tionally a part-time Legislature and those of us 19 who want can engage in other business, our 20 employees are full-time people; not only that, 21 we make sure they're full-time people. 22 Years ago, there were people who 23 were part time and, with a number of things that 4683 1 went on, we now have absolutely, for the most 2 part, full-time people who are working, so they 3 have no other source of income and, as I pointed 4 out before and I'm going to stress again, the 5 Governor's public position about his not being 6 paid and we in the Legislature will not be paid 7 is a fraud; it's an absolute fraud. 8 There are people who I know - 9 very, very decent people -- who work for the 10 Republican Majority in this house who supported 11 George Pataki and you, and worked very hard to 12 keep their jobs, who rent homes, who own homes 13 and whose banks and landlords expect that, if 14 they are going to sleep at night and live in 15 those homes, that the mortgage or the rental be 16 paid. That's not George Pataki's problem. He's 17 living free over at the mansion. 18 Those people, before they come to 19 work, eat food that they shop for, many of them 20 working mothers and fathers go shop on the 21 weekends. George Pataki didn't have to shop 22 this weekend because he eats for nothing at the 23 mansion. 4684 1 A lot of the people who work in 2 the Capitol live in our surrounding areas. They 3 come down the Northway a little bit. They come 4 up from the south a little bit, and when they 5 get up in the morning and they have to get in a 6 car, there's gas in it if they have money to put 7 gas in it, but if George Pataki wants to go to 8 New York, we give him a plane. We even put the 9 gas in it. We don't expect him to fly by 10 himself. If he wants to come in the Capitol, 11 drive around town, we give him a car and there's 12 gas in it, and he does everything he wants to. 13 He eats. He travels. He has a roof over his 14 head. So when George Pataki says that "I'm 15 withholding my money just like I'm withholding 16 your money," that's a fraud because the people 17 who work for the Legislature use that money to 18 buy their housing, buy their food, buy their 19 transportation. And so it is not an equal 20 playing field. 21 And I say again, I would have 22 more respect for George Pataki's position if he 23 moved out of the mansion, went into a hotel or 4685 1 an apartment, started buying his own food and 2 walked to work and took cabs or flew commercial 3 flights, then he would be on an equal playing 4 field with everybody. 5 But this bill, the one that deals 6 with the Legislature and the Governor's office, 7 is the worst kind of political grandstanding. 8 That's exactly what it is. And the fact is 9 that, while we are here in Albany today, I 10 haven't heard anybody talk about budgets other 11 than these bills which deal with temporary 12 solutions, and the temporary solutions are there 13 because we are a ship without a leader. The 14 Governor is not here negotiating. The Governor 15 is some place else in this state, so I am told. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: If you would 17 yield for a minute. The Governor is on the 18 second floor, I believe, having discussions - 19 SENATOR GOLD: Oh, is that right? 20 SENATOR SKELOS: -- with Senator 21 Bruno. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Well, if that's 23 the case, I'm thrilled. 4686 1 SENATOR SKELOS: So before you 2 make that type of misstatement, you should know 3 what you're talking about. 4 SENATOR GOLD: No. I'm talking 5 about - 6 SENATOR GALIBER: Ask him to 7 yield. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Galiber. 10 SENATOR GOLD: No, no. That's 11 fine, Senator Galiber. Thank you. 12 If I was told something wrong, 13 Senator Skelos, I'm delighted. I'm delighted, 14 and I hope he stays in Albany. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: I think your 16 efforts should be - 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Gold, do you yield to a question from Senator 19 Skelos? 20 SENATOR SKELOS: -- with 21 Assemblyman -- with Speaker Silver. We have 22 passed a budget in this house. We are waiting 23 for the Assembly to pass a budget, so that just 4687 1 like with 65 miles an hour, there's a thing we 2 established called a Joint Conference 3 Committee. You can go to joint conference once 4 there's legislation passed in both houses. The 5 Speaker would pass his budget rather than saying 6 "I have a budget. We've done a budget in the 7 Assembly", pass it, take difficult votes like we 8 have on this side of the aisle, your side 9 criticizing as your constitutional right to do. 10 The same thing you have in the Assembly. The 11 Speaker should be a leader, pass a budget. We 12 can go to Joint Conference Committee, resolve 13 the differences, and then there will be a final 14 budget for the state of New York. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Would the Senator 16 yield to a question? 17 SENATOR SKELOS: Absolutely. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, last year 19 there was a different governor and we were late, 20 and your conference refused to pass a Mario 21 Cuomo budget on time. Are you telling us that 22 your conference was irresponsible? 23 SENATOR SKELOS: There's a 4688 1 difference. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Answer the 3 question. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: I'm going to 5 answer the question. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Good. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: But don't tell 8 me how I should answer it. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Oh, I wouldn't 10 tell you anything, Senator. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: There's a 12 difference right now in leadership, and the 13 decision was made this year under the leadership 14 in our house that we would pass a budget by 15 March 31st, which we did. The Assembly has 16 refused other than debt service -- I think just 17 debt service they have passed, one other bill, 18 two out of 82 that we have passed. They have 19 refused to do so, and there's no way you can go 20 to Joint Conference Committee. We passed our 21 bills for years. You have been yelling on that 22 side, "The light of the day, not in the evening; 23 let us see the bills." 4689 1 We've done it. We've passed a 2 budget. We've accepted your amendments. We've 3 accepted your criticisms. Fine. That's the 4 process, but the Assembly has failed to do the 5 same. Let them pass their budget. We can have 6 a Joint Conference Committee and resolve the 7 differences. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 9 yield to question? 10 SENATOR SKELOS: Absolutely. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Senator yields. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Are you saying 14 that the failure of the Republicans in this 15 house to pass a budget on time last year, the 16 year before, maybe 12 years in a row is because 17 there wasn't a Joint Conference Committee? Let 18 me finish the question. Isn't it a fact that, 19 in all of those years, the same thing was 20 available as is available today, the opportunity 21 of the leaders to sit down and talk this out; 22 isn't this a fact? 23 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator Gold, 4690 1 we're breaking with tradition on this side of 2 the aisle. For all the years, there was a 3 Democratic governor, a Democratic Assembly. 4 They never passed a bill on their side of the 5 aisle in their house by March 31st. 6 The Senate Majority under Joe 7 Bruno is breaking with tradition. We have 8 passed a budget. We are asking Speaker Silver 9 to stop the ways of the past that he was part 10 of, pass a budget and let's go to joint 11 conference, resolve the differences with the 12 press watching the negotiations, being there, 13 seeing what's happening in the light of day. 14 That's what you all talked about on this side of 15 the aisle, reform, openness, light of day. 16 We've done it, but what about Speaker Silver? 17 Where is he? Pass a budget. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Gold. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You have 23 the floor. 4691 1 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, thank you. 2 The simple fact, Senator Skelos, 3 is that nothing has changed in terms of the fact 4 that this house passing a bunch of bills does 5 not create a budget. That's a fact. Ever since 6 I'm here, I have sat in day after day and seen 7 your house pass one-house bills. 8 Now, do I think that's a waste of 9 time? Politically it isn't, because your side 10 of the house gets press release, press release, 11 press release on one-house bills, and that's 12 what you've done. 13 As a matter of fact, there's an 14 old story -- and I won't give you the whole 15 story -- a young man who works for his father's 16 law firm and they give him some work -- work on 17 a railroad case, and the kid comes back in six 18 months and he says, "I need some more work." He 19 says, "What do you mean?" He said, "I settled 20 the case." He said, "You jerk, you settled the 21 case? That case has been supporting this family 22 for 20 years!" And you guys have bills that have 23 been supporting your political careers for 20 4692 1 years and, God forbid, the day that we pass them 2 in two houses you may have to think -- think 3 about something. 4 But nothing has changed, Senator 5 Skelos. The fact is that the one thing that 6 doesn't change is that the Governor is supposed 7 to show leadership and, if the Assembly passed a 8 bill and we went to the Conference Committee, 9 that's all well and good, but the fact of the 10 matter is that in the days of yore when your 11 side was intent on embarrassing a Democratic 12 governor, the fact is he called meetings and 13 your side would go to the meetings. Sometimes 14 you'd walk out in three minutes, sometimes you'd 15 walk out in eight minutes, but the Governor at 16 least called the meetings. 17 This Governor is not calling 18 meetings. People can sit in a room and with or 19 without -- with or without bills that have been 20 passed, the bottom line is you get negotiations 21 and you get this work done, and the fact is that 22 we're not getting the work done; but the bottom 23 line, Senator Skelos, which I know you really 4693 1 don't want to deal with, is that we're passing 2 measures that take care of the state on a 3 temporary basis. We've done that in the past, 4 but we have never taken the position -- we never 5 had a governor take the position that, if you 6 don't agree with me, I am going to penalize 7 people who work for a living, not legislators, 8 but people who work for a living while the 9 Governor eats free, lives free, rides free, and 10 that part of it, Senator Skelos, is 11 unconscionable. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 Secretary will read the last section. 14 Senator DeFrancisco. 15 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: On the 16 bill. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 DeFrancisco on the bill. 19 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: You know, 20 you can't win no matter what you do. 21 The first two years in this 22 Senate, I heard Senator Gold over and over and 23 over again, "Pass bills in the light of day. 4694 1 Don't go behind closed doors. Don't have these 2 meetings that we're not participants in. Do 3 these things in the light of day." So this year 4 comes around, there's a Republican governor, a 5 Republican, new Senate Majority Leader who says, 6 "Let's do it. Let's change. Let's have a 7 breath of fresh air in the way government works, 8 and, Speaker Silver, do the same thing," so the 9 world can see in public each of your positions 10 on the budget and so the Minority in each house 11 can debate the bills and show the defects in 12 those bills so that democracy works. 13 And now this year, Senator Gold 14 looks back to the past and speaks with fondness 15 over the meetings that were in private where our 16 side walked out of the meetings. He forgets to 17 mention that Sheldon Silver has been walking out 18 regularly, but nothing, not an ounce of 19 criticism, not an ounce of criticism for the 20 Assembly who has not passed the budget bills 21 from which we could try to make a public 22 discussion and a public compromise. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 4695 1 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: So simply 2 stated, I think that it's -- the time has come 3 to tell it like it is and be consistent, and 4 consistency would call for both houses to pass a 5 budget so that we can negotiate and get a final 6 budget in this state. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 8 recognizes Senator Skelos. 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 10 would Senator DeFrancisco yield? 11 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 DeFrancisco, do you yield to Senator Skelos? 14 The Senator yields. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 16 DeFrancisco, I recall for the two prior years 17 when our good friends on the Minority side of 18 the aisle were yelling about reform and changes 19 in the light of the day, one of the major 20 reasons, I understand, that they voted against 21 the budget, Mario Cuomo's budgets of the past, 22 was the fact that the Minority Leader of the 23 Senate and the Minority Leader of the Assembly 4696 1 were not allowed to go to the leaders' 2 meetings. Do you know whether that's changed 3 this year and whether it's five-way negotiations 4 now, or not? 5 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I know it's 6 five-way negotiations. That's my under 7 standing. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you very 9 much. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Would the Senator 11 yield to another question? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 DeFrancisco, do you yield to Senator Gold? 14 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I would be 15 more than happy to. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 Senator yields. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, maybe it 19 works differently in Syracuse than in New York 20 City, but how do you go to meetings - 21 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I hope so. 22 SENATOR GOLD: How do you go to 23 meetings that don't get called, Senator? Would 4697 1 you explain that to me. 2 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Well, 3 there's a meeting going on right now, I 4 understand, and the last meeting that was held, 5 after about ten minutes Mr. Silver left, said he 6 didn't want to sit down with David Duke, I 7 believe. So why call a meeting if someone is 8 going to walk out and not participate? Why call 9 a meeting to negotiate when there's nothing on 10 the table to negotiate with? 11 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 12 yield to a question? 13 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: And that's 14 the way we do it in Syracuse. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 16 yield to a question? 17 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Let me just 18 finish. 19 The way we do it in Syracuse - 20 this is how negotiations go on in Syracuse. I 21 don't know how they go on in New York City. In 22 Syracuse, one negotiator puts a plan on the 23 table, the other negotiator puts a plan on the 4698 1 table and you negotiate from two plans. It's 2 not one person puts a plan on the table, another 3 person says, "No, that's not good. Give me 4 something else. No, that's not good. Give me 5 something else." I don't think they negotiate 6 that way in New York City either. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 8 yield to a question? 9 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 DeFrancisco yields. 12 SENATOR GOLD: First of all, 13 Senator, I'm sure in Syracuse, when one puts 14 their plan on the table and the other one puts 15 their plan on the table, it's in the same room, 16 and if the Governor doesn't call people into the 17 same room, I don't know what help that is but, 18 Senator, I'm told that, while Senator Bruno, 19 according to Senator Skelos, may be meeting with 20 the Governor, that that is not a five-way 21 meeting, so I may be missing something. I want 22 you to explain to me how significant it is to 23 stand up and say that negotiations are five-way, 4699 1 not three-way if, in fact, there are no meetings 2 and no conversations. 3 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Well, quite 4 frankly, I think the meetings should be 211-way 5 meetings, and the way that happens is both 6 houses put bills on the floor, debate so the 7 Minority has a chance to criticize, the Majority 8 has a chance to promote their particular points 9 of view and, to me, it's not a question of us 10 being in the same room with bills, because we 11 have a different chamber here. We've passed our 12 bills in this chamber while the Assembly puts 13 out press releases. 14 So I think the breath of fresh 15 air that you have been begging for and 16 complaining about over the last several years is 17 here. It's really here. We need one more 18 component; that's the Assembly to pass some 19 bills so the public can see where everybody 20 stands. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Dollinger, why do you rise? 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would Senator 4700 1 DeFrancisco yield to a question? 2 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I appreciate 4 your - 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Dollinger, wait just a minute. The Chair has 7 been very, very lax in not asking all of you to 8 go through the Chair. This is not meant to be a 9 dialogue nor a diatribe in this chamber. I 10 would respectfully request that you wait for the 11 Senator to be asked if he yields, and then for 12 him to respond, and then for the recognition on 13 the floor of the chamber. 14 Now, Senator DeFrancisco, do you 15 yield to Senator Dollinger? 16 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 Senator yields. 19 Senator Dollinger. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 21 Mr. President. 22 I appreciate your comments about 23 the breath of fresh air. If that breath of 4701 1 fresh air is blowing -- my understanding is that 2 we passed a capital budget bill and the Assembly 3 has passed a capital budget bill -- why has 4 there been no Conference Committee to reconcile 5 the difference between those budget bills, 6 exactly the same as the two bills that we did 7 for the 65-mile-an-hour speed limit? 8 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Thank you 9 for asking. 10 Now, let me -- let me - 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: You're 12 welcome. 13 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Since 14 you're a lawyer and you've negotiated things, 15 let's -- let me ask you this: Don't you have to 16 have the whole proposal on the table to 17 negotiate a budget? Do you go in on a 18 litigation and say, "Well, listen. Let's 19 negotiate the pain and suffering aspect of this 20 lawsuit. Let's not worry too much about the 21 wrongful death case because we'll get to that 22 later. Let's try to get as much as we can here 23 and then we're going to negotiate the wrongful 4702 1 death, then we'll negotiate attorneys' fees, 2 then we'll negotiate something else, one at a 3 time"? 4 Anybody that negotiates that way 5 over a complete settlement is an idiot, and 6 anybody who negotiates that way without having 7 the complete budget package on the floor so that 8 you know what the final numbers are that we're 9 working from would not be negotiating properly. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Dollinger, excuse me just a minute. 14 Senator Skelos, why do you rise? 15 SENATOR SKELOS: I believe 16 Senator DeFrancisco has the floor and I believe 17 the question was why we're not conferencing 18 state operations. I believe the Assembly 19 amended the Senate bill but did not pass it. 20 They passed debt service and state op's, not 21 capital projects. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank you 23 for the point of information, Senator Skelos. 4703 1 Senator Dollinger. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 3 President, I guess I would just respond to 4 Senator DeFrancisco. The one thing I would 5 never do in litigation is put a proposal - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Dollinger, if you're asking Senator DeFrancisco 8 to continue to yield, that's fine. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I would like 10 to go on the list. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 DiCarlo, Senator Waldon and after Senator 13 Dollinger on the list. 14 Thank you. 15 The Chair recognizes Senator 16 DiCarlo. 17 SENATOR DiCARLO: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. 19 I wasn't going to speak on this, 20 but I just feel I've got to stand up. I've only 21 been around here -- this is my -- beginning of 22 my second year, and from my -- basically, a 23 layman's position, I find it amazing that the 4704 1 other side of the aisle doesn't understand what 2 the real story here is. 3 The real story is that the people 4 in this chamber and a number of you on that side 5 of the aisle who might have voted yes on parts 6 of this budget put their positions out in the 7 open for the voters and their constituents and 8 their people to see. A lot of what was in this 9 budget that we passed was not the easiest thing 10 in the world to vote on. A lot of the things in 11 the budget some of us might have had some 12 problems with because this is a very difficult 13 year, but the people in this chamber had the 14 guts as elected representatives to speak openly 15 about their positions and to vote on the future 16 of this state. 17 Some of us didn't like everything 18 in it. Some of us might have liked everything 19 in it, but at least we did what we were sent 20 here to do, and that is to take a position. I 21 believe, and I would hope that the rest of the 22 people in this state would understand what's 23 happening on the other side of this building. 4705 1 The reason that they haven't voted on a budget, 2 the reason they haven't passed a budget is that 3 they cannot pass a budget in the light of day. 4 Speaker Silver and the people who 5 control the other house know that, if they ever 6 came public with what they really want, it would 7 upset a lot of people, namely a lot of their own 8 members. So they would rather lurk in the dark 9 hallways of the Capitol and try to come out with 10 an agreement in the darkness rather than come 11 out in the light and say what they really 12 believe and what they really stand for. 13 I say shame on Speaker Silver. 14 Shame on the Democrats who control the Assembly. 15 If you have the guts to go back home and say 16 that you're against so many things or you're for 17 so many things, then you should have the guts to 18 stand here, to debate it, to take a vote and to 19 be on record with your position. 20 I'm proud of what this chamber 21 has done. As I have said earlier, I might not 22 agree with everything that we voted on, but we 23 voted on it while the Assembly is afraid to vote 4706 1 on it because, frankly, I don't think they could 2 pass it. Frankly, I don't think the Speaker 3 over there has enough of his own members to pass 4 a bill. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 6 recognizes Senator Dollinger on the bill. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 8 Mr. President. 9 Two quick things. One, I want to 10 clarify my comment to Senator DeFrancisco. I'm 11 sorry he's left. There's one thing I would 12 never do in negotiation as a lawyer, is 13 something I think was done in this house. I 14 would never put a proposal on the table and say, 15 "The proposal is there. Let's negotiate the 16 budget proposal," and the very next day say, 17 "Oops! I got this 250-, 280-, $300 million 18 piece that I left out of the proposal, but I 19 can't call it a budget. I'm instead going to 20 call it economic development, and it'll have 21 stadiums in it and it'll have tax cuts in it. 22 It'll look a lot like an amendment to the budget 23 proposals." That's the one thing that I would 4707 1 never do in litigating -- in trying to settle a 2 case, is to say, "I've done my job. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Libous. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: "Oops! I've 6 got this big thing I want to tack onto the end 7 of it which I'm going to call by another name." 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Dollinger, excuse me just a minute. 10 Senator Libous, why do you rise? 11 SENATOR LIBOUS: Would Senator 12 Dollinger yield for a quick question? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Dollinger, do you yield to Senator Libous? 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Sure. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 Senator yields. 18 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, 19 how did Senator Dollinger vote on that 20 proposal? 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: How did I 22 vote on that proposal? Oh, I'm willing to buy 23 -- as I've said throughout this chamber, I'm 4708 1 willing to vote in favor of all that stuff; you 2 tack it on. 3 SENATOR LIBOUS: How did he vote 4 on that? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Dollinger? 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I voted yes. 8 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr. 9 President. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Exactly what 11 I said at the time I voted is that, if you want 12 to play that game, if you want to do that, I'm 13 willing to buy into that. I understand the 14 politics of that. What I'm simply suggesting is 15 -- in response to Senator DeFrancisco is I 16 don't think it's one way to negotiate to say, 17 "Here's the lump sum; it's all done and, oh, by 18 the way, we got this other thing that we want to 19 tack on off-line." 20 I would just point out one other 21 thing, Mr. President. A lot has been made about 22 guts and courage. May be a lot of courage on 23 the other side of the aisle. From another 4709 1 perspective, it might simply be that there 2 hasn't been a lot of courage; that the whistle 3 has been blown by Chairman Powers to back the 4 Governor and to put George Pataki's plan in 5 front of the people of this state and, instead 6 of exercising courage, what people are doing is 7 simply falling in line. That may be another way 8 to look at it. Maybe we'll let the voters 9 decide that, because it certainly seems that 10 that's the politics of what's going on in this 11 state today. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Marcellino, why do you rise? 14 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 15 President, would the Senator yield for a 16 question? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Dollinger, do you yield to Senator Marcellino? 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I would be 20 glad to. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 Senator yields. 23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Senator 4710 1 Dollinger -- through you, Mr. President -- I 2 would think that we would all be in favor of a 3 budget that spends less than we did last year. 4 Would that be a fair statement, sir? 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm not sure 6 -- I wouldn't make that judgment until I saw 7 what it looked like, Mr. President. 8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Through you, 9 sir, Mr. President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Dollinger, do you continue to yield to Senator 12 Marcellino? 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I will. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 Senator yields. 16 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Would you be 17 in favor of a budget that provided tax relief 18 for our population? 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Depending on 20 what the spending was attached to it, Mr. 21 President, I would certainly look at that. I'm 22 not convinced that that would necessarily earn 23 my vote, that fact alone. 4711 1 SENATOR MARCELLINO: So would it 2 be fair to state then that - 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Dollinger, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I will, Mr. 6 President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Senator continues to yield. 9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Through you, 10 sir. Would it be fair to state then that the 11 Senator would want to spend more and raise 12 taxes? 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 14 President, it all depends on what that spending 15 would go for. I have talked a number of times 16 in this chamber about what I would support and 17 what I wouldn't support. What I made very clear 18 with this budget by my votes is that I'm not 19 prepared to spend -- support the spending 20 package and the taxing package that's been 21 approved by the Majority of this house, period. 22 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 23 President, would Senator - 4712 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Dollinger, do you continue to yield? 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, Mr. 4 President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6 Senator continues to yield. 7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Would the 8 Senator agree that, at the very least with 9 respect to negotiations, that this house has 10 presented a package that you and all of us could 11 make a fair decision; whether you agree with the 12 tax cuts, whether you agree with the lack of 13 spending or the reduced spending, whether you 14 agree with the capital funding, whether you 15 agree with any aspect of it, at the very least, 16 this house has had a budget to negotiate, to 17 debate and to argue back and forth with; do you 18 see another budget on the other side to do the 19 same critical analysis of - 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 21 President, just by way of clarification, do you 22 include the economic development stimulus 23 package as part of that budget? 4713 1 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Include it 2 all. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Include the 4 whole thing? 5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: You got it 6 all in front of you. My question, sir, is we 7 have it all in front of us, whatever it is, the 8 economic development package. We have the 9 reduced spending package. We have the tax cut 10 package. We have the capital budget package. 11 We have state op's. We have it all. 12 Now, I'm new to this chamber. I 13 will admit to being green as grass in all of 14 this stuff, but at least it's there in front of 15 you. You could take that home to your district 16 and rant and rave and do whatever you want - 17 and I don't mean to characterize anything you 18 do. It's just a statement, but you could make 19 anything of it you wish. At least it's 20 something to put your teeth into. 21 I see nothing coming from the 22 Assembly that we -- until very recently, that we 23 could do the same with. Would you agree with 4714 1 that, sir? 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I would 3 certainly agree, Mr. President, by passing this 4 budget and perhaps by making a statement about 5 economic development, there has been a position 6 advanced by the Senate Majority that they would 7 like to accept the Governor's proposals from 8 downstairs. I believe that's a clear statement. 9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: You think 10 the budget would certainly - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Dollinger, do you continue to yield? 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, I will, 14 Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Senator continues to yield. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I apologize. 18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Are you 19 okay? 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yeah, I am. 21 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I can give 22 you CPR. A little Heimlich is good too. 23 Do you think the budget that we 4715 1 passed is the same budget that the executive 2 branch sent down originally? 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: At least from 4 my perspective -- again, talking from my 5 perspective in my district, I think with minor 6 alterations, it is. That's my personal opinion. 7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: $500 million 8 -- sir, on the bill. $500 million - 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Marcellino, there are a couple other people 11 ahead of you. 12 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Go right 13 ahead. I'm sorry. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 15 you, Senator Dollinger. 16 Senator Paterson. 17 Senator DeFrancisco. 18 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Would 19 Senator Dollinger yield to a question? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Dollinger, do you want to yield to Senator 22 DeFrancisco? 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I would be 4716 1 glad to, Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 DeFrancisco, the Senator yields. 4 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Senator 5 Dollinger, do you believe that the Assembly 6 should pass a budget of its own in the light of 7 day so that we could see what their position is 8 in this budget process? 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 10 President, I'm not -- for one, I'm not prepared 11 to substitute my judgment as to what the 12 Assembly would do or the Speaker or the other 13 two -- 150 members over there, but I do agree 14 with Senator DeFrancisco, that there is a 15 starting point for every negotiation, there is a 16 continuation point in every negotiation, and 17 there is an end point. I'm not sure -- and I 18 guess I'm not satisfied that what I have heard 19 about the negotiations today suggest that the - 20 even the negotiators have gotten to the point of 21 talking about major issues that would affect 22 this budget and, from my point of view, again, 23 I'm not defending the Speaker. I don't know 4717 1 what the Speaker wants to do. I haven't talked 2 to him about it. I leave that up to the wisdom 3 of the Speaker. It's his house. It's his 4 Majority. It's his members that elect him. Let 5 him decide what his members want him to do. 6 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Would 7 Senator Dollinger yield to the same question? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Dollinger, do you yield? 10 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I'm asking 11 you your opinion as a member of the legislative 12 branch, do you believe it would be helpful to 13 have the Assembly pass a budget so that nego 14 tiations -- the starting point of negotiations 15 could be defined on April 17th? 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I would just 17 ask Senator DeFrancisco to yield to the same 18 answer. I think I made it clear. I would leave 19 that up to the Speaker. 20 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: So you have 21 no opinion on that? 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: From the 23 point of view of negotiating this budget, I 4718 1 leave that judgment up to the Speaker. 2 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I have 3 nothing further. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 5 recognizes Senator Paterson. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 7 President. 8 Mr. President, if I'm correct, 9 we're on Calendar Number 452, which relates to 10 Medicaid, but it seems that we have gravitated 11 into a discussion that will involve Calendar 12 Number 436, and I wanted to know if the Acting 13 Majority Leader would yield to a question 14 related to the payment of state personnel? 15 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Velella? 18 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 Senator yields. 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 23 President. 4719 1 Senator Velella, in this bi 2 weekly piece of legislation that will provide 3 for the payment of -- will conduct state 4 operations and will pay the legislative and 5 judiciary, I noticed the same items that existed 6 two weeks ago, meaning that members of the 7 Governor's staff will continue to be paid under 8 the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act; is that 9 correct? 10 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, that's 11 correct. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: And I would 13 like an explanation, if you would yield for this 14 question, as to why it is that these employees 15 would be paid when those of equal worth and 16 value who work for the legislative staff, my 17 secretaries and support personnel, and yours as 18 well, will not be paid? 19 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, not 20 everybody in the Governor's office is getting 21 paid under this, as you well know, and his 22 secretarial staff will be paid whereas ours will 23 not, and that is because, as I understand it, 4720 1 the interpretation of the federal law which 2 would require that they be paid as opposed to it 3 not requiring that ours be paid. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: In other 5 words, the Governor is interpreting under the 6 federal law that he has to pay? 7 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, I don't 8 know that the Governor is interpreting. I know 9 it has been interpreted. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: It has been 11 interpreted? 12 SENATOR VELELLA: I don't know if 13 that -- I honestly don't know if that's been by 14 judicial determination or by the Secretary of 15 Labor or anybody of that nature, but it has been 16 determined. I don't believe it was the Governor 17 himself. I believe it was possibly some 18 bureaucrats in Washington. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, thank 20 you very much, Senator. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Paterson. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 4721 1 again through you, if Senator Velella would 2 yield. My question is - 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Velella, do you yield? 5 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Senator yields. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Who is making 9 the interpretation and why did they interpret 10 that the legislative staff who are doing the 11 same jobs as secretarial and support staff, why 12 would they not be paid? 13 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, they're 14 not covered under the Federal -- what's the name 15 of the -- Fair Labor Standards Act, and they're 16 not covered under it, and the intent is to cover 17 those people under it by law. Those who are not 18 will not get paid, unfortunately. 19 However, I believe that there is 20 an adequate amount of funds available so that 70 21 percent of the pay will be coming to our 22 employees that will be paying them up to March 23 31st, and that will be probably 70 percent, I 4722 1 believe, of the pay that they will be due. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 3 Senator. 4 I'm aware of that because two 5 weeks ago, I stated right here on this floor 6 that the Comptroller advised us that he would 7 pay out of that fund and, at that time, he was 8 actually able to pay the whole salaries, and he 9 would be very interested in paying the entire 10 salaries for the staff right now, but for the 11 fact that there isn't sufficient money in there, 12 and so he has enough to pay 70 percent of the 13 staff and he will -- he will pay 100 percent of 14 the staff 70 percent of their wages and on 15 Wednesday, April 19th, he will do that. 16 But, if Senator Velella would 17 yield for another question - 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Velella, do you yield? 20 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 Senator yields. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: I have in 4723 1 front of me, Senator Velella, Article 14 - 2 actually, Article -- Section 200 of Article 14 3 of the State Finance Law, and it says very 4 clearly that the state's -- that "the salaries 5 of officers and the wages of employees thereof 6 shall be paid -- shall be due and payable in the 7 beginning of the fiscal year," which, at the 8 time they wrote it, was April 1st, 1956. 9 So what I'm saying is that, under 10 our own state law, it would seem to me that 11 those employees must be paid, and what I'm 12 trying to find from anyone, but I'm asking you, 13 Senator, is an answer as to why they're not 14 going to be paid. 15 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, Senator, 16 let me explain to you, and I can only make it as 17 very basic and plain as possible. They would be 18 paid if the Assembly would pass a budget that we 19 could all agree upon and they could be reimburs 20 ed for the fair value of their services. 21 This house has acted. If they 22 would pass our bill, everybody could be paid. 23 There would be nobody going home without a 4724 1 paycheck. However, the Assembly chooses to turn 2 this into a political football and they refuse 3 to pass a budget, and people are not going to be 4 paid on account of that. 5 Now, I think that's unconscion 6 able but, unfortunately, we have to live with 7 the facts as they are. We have no budget in 8 place and, in spite of the fact that that law 9 may say and that section may say that people 10 should be paid, they cannot be paid unless we 11 have a budget appropriating the money. If we 12 don't have the money, we can't pay. If the 13 Assembly doesn't pass a budget, nobody gets 14 paid. 15 Speak to Shelly Silver; don't 16 speak to me. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Paterson. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 20 through you to Senator Velella. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Velella, do you yield? 23 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 4725 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Senator continues to yield. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: This calendar 4 number, 436, and this legislation is providing 5 the money for them to be paid. Now, what I'm 6 going to do, Senator, is I'm going to demur to 7 your complaint. I think Senator Gold has pretty 8 much stated the argument on behalf of the 9 Speaker of the Assembly. So for want of the 10 discussion, I'm going to go along with you. 11 Whatever you want to say about the Speaker, I'm 12 not going to argue with you about it right now. 13 What I'm saying to you, though, is that I just 14 read you the section of the law, Article 14, 15 Section 200, and it says that these employees 16 shall be paid. It doesn't say, well, if you're 17 having a big fight over the budget, you might 18 decide you don't feel like paying them. It 19 doesn't say that they can work but not be paid. 20 They did work; we both concede that. I think it 21 was a great Republican that said, In your heart 22 you know I'm right. Senator Velella, in your 23 heart you know that I'm right, so what I'm 4726 1 really asking you is how can we pick and choose 2 the laws that we're going to abide by and then 3 just forsake those that we don't want to abide 4 by? 5 The State Finance Law says when 6 people work, they shall be paid. We can't blame 7 the employee for the actions of the employers 8 who are having a problem getting along. We have 9 the money; we're appropriating it to pay 10 everybody else. We're appropriating that money 11 to pay the secretaries in the Governor's office 12 and the support staff under the federal Fair 13 Labor Standards Act. 14 We're appropriating the money to 15 pay the salaries of some individuals who are 16 unit heads who make 104,000 a week and we're not 17 paying the interns -- I mean who make $104,000 a 18 year and we're not paying the interns who make 19 $104 a week. 20 And so what I'm saying to you is 21 I don't understand how anything can be 22 unconscionable, how you can make the comment 23 about the Assembly being unconscionable because 4727 1 if you're going to make an argument in equity 2 you've got to come to the table with clean 3 hands. You can't not pay the staff and then 4 turn around and argue about what your adversary 5 is doing. You may be one hundred percent right 6 about what you want to say about your adversary, 7 but now you've made yourself a hundred percent 8 wrong by manifesting this conduct in an action 9 that is really loathesome. 10 How can you not pay the staff? 11 They worked the time. Why don't they get paid? 12 SENATOR VELELLA: You asking me 13 to yield to that question? Why don't they get 14 paid? Very simply, the reason why anybody in 15 this state is missing a paycheck is because the 16 Assembly has failed to pass the budget. Now, we 17 have done what we think is right. The Governor 18 has openly said he would sign that budget bill. 19 Everybody would be paid if Shelly would get off 20 the dime and pass a bill, but we can't negotiate 21 with someone who refuses even to act. Everybody 22 would be paid. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4728 1 Paterson. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: I yielded to 3 Senator Velella. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Paterson, on the bill. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: And I commend 7 you, Senator Velella, because in fact, I think 8 that if I ever commit a crime and I'm on my way 9 to the lethal injection because we have the 10 death penalty in this state I would want you, 11 Senator Velella, to -- to defend me. 12 The reason I would want you to 13 defend me is because - 14 SENATOR VELELLA: Will the 15 Senator yield for a question? 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Certainly. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 Senator yields. 19 SENATOR VELELLA: As you know, 20 attorneys, under the special laws now are 21 allowed to advertise. Would you publicly allow 22 me to use that statement in the future? 23 SENATOR PATERSON: I absolutely 4729 1 would want Senator Velella to defend me. 2 SENATOR VELELLA: Thank you. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm not 4 backing away from that and let me tell you why: 5 Because I know I'm guilty. I know I committed 6 the crime. I know that I did it and everyone 7 knows I did it, but Senator Velella can still 8 get up and perhaps make an argument that could 9 get me out of it, and I think that is quite 10 commendable especially in this forum, because 11 it's really, in my opinion, the artistry of 12 advocacy, and we've seen an example of it by 13 Senator Velella, and I'm impressed to the point 14 that I would retain him myself if I ever had a 15 -- that kind of a problem. 16 But when we talk about the bill, 17 Mr. President, Senator Velella's, I think, 18 expert soliloquy cannot move us away from facts 19 that are staring us right in the face. Somebody 20 years ago thought about this. That's why our 21 Constitution, both the federal one and the state 22 one, which Governor Pataki took an oath that he 23 would uphold, that's why they are such unique 4730 1 documents and that's why they've held up over 2 such a long period of time, because our 3 ancestors thought of this. They thought about 4 this, and they decided that some things, as they 5 say, should be written in stone. 6 The staff works, the staff gets 7 paid, the federal employees under the Fair Labor 8 Standards Act, the state employees under the 9 State Finance Law. It all says the same thing. 10 If people work, they who travel here at 11 distances, they who don't make very large 12 salaries, some of them work seasonally, some of 13 them work session, they aren't involved in the 14 process. It's really not their issue to be 15 debating. They don't have political agendas as 16 we often did. They don't engage in absurd 17 extremes as we do in this chamber every day. 18 They don't walk around peddling a bunch of 19 simplistic exaggerations that often parody the 20 truth. 21 If we really want to do something 22 to set an example, we should pay them. They 23 earned it. That's what we could do to set an 4731 1 example. But, instead, we drag them into the 2 mire of our confusion just as much as if they 3 had participated in it, and we all know good and 4 well they didn't have anything else to do. If 5 anything, they worked long hours; they've been 6 loyal, they've sponsored us with the ability to 7 have often these types of debates, and what I'm 8 saying is they earned the right to get paid, and 9 we have found a way, and this is why many of us 10 in this profession are suffering from the public 11 ridicule now. 12 We found a loophole, but we 13 didn't even find a loophole. We just didn't pay 14 them and engaged in the art of sophistry, of 15 standing up and making a bunch of intellectual 16 explanations that actually parody the truth, and 17 the truth is they worked and they should have 18 gotten their money, and we didn't pay them. 19 That's the whole truth of the 20 whole issue, and we have spent more time on this 21 floor debating this absurd discussion - 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Paterson, excuse me just a minute. Senator 4732 1 Waldon, why do you rise? 2 SENATOR WALDON: I would like to 3 know if the learned Senator from the town of 4 Harlem would yield to a question or two? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I assume 6 that was Senator Paterson you're talking about? 7 SENATOR WALDON: Yeah. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Paterson, would you yield to Senator Waldon? 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, I do. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Senator yields. 13 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 14 much, Mr. President. Thank you very kindly, 15 Senator Paterson. 16 Senator Paterson, I just heard 17 you say "we" did not pay them. Are you aware, 18 Senator, of a letter that came across your desk 19 some many days ago, signed by the Governor of 20 this state, stating that he would stop all 21 checks for all state employees if we, the 22 legislative body, did did not pass his budget? 23 Are you aware of that, Senator Paterson? 4733 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, I am, 2 Senator Waldon. He didn't actually sign my 3 letter, but he did send it to me. You're 4 absolutely correct, and to augment that answer, 5 I would say that when I used the term "we", I 6 was just taking responsibility, as I'm sure we 7 all do, for being unable in three weeks of 8 discussion, to convince the Governor as his 9 colleague, as someone that works with him in the 10 Legislature, he being the head of the executive 11 branch and those of us being the legislative 12 branch, I was really talking about those of us 13 in the profession, those of us who are elected 14 officials, those of us who are politicians, and 15 I meant that when Governor Pataki fails, in my 16 mind, in some ways we all fail because it is 17 hard for individuals to distinguish who is 18 actually doing it and of those such as yourself, 19 Senator Waldon, who are sophisticated and 20 understand these things, we're here every day, 21 although I would suggest sometimes when you're 22 here every day you understand things less than 23 if you weren't here, those who don't have that 4734 1 privilege really just know that there is some 2 kind of discrepancy and can't put a label on it, 3 and so in using the term "we," I was really just 4 trying to say that it's something that in a 5 sense is a cross we're all going to have to 6 bear. It is a responsibility that we're all 7 going to have to take and turning the discussion 8 into whether or not the Assembly passed the 9 budget, well, what if the Assembly did pass the 10 budget? The Assembly could have passed the 11 budget before April 1st, I'm sure that wouldn't 12 have been a particularly difficult thing to do. 13 They pass the budget and the two budgets don't 14 agree, we'd still be standing here, but our 15 staffs would still not be paid, so the Assembly 16 not passing the budget couldn't have been the 17 answer. 18 The answer, I think, is in your 19 question, Senator Waldon, that the Governor 20 decided that he was going to take responsibility 21 and he wrote to all of us, and he was very 22 public about this; he said this at his State of 23 the State message, or on January the 5th, he 4735 1 said that, "if the budget does not get passed, 2 you will not get paid and neither will I." 3 At the time, he didn't say 4 anything about the staff, but he went on to, at 5 one point, threaten to close down the whole 6 state. He was going to pay -- he wasn't going 7 to pay any of the state employees, but their 8 unions came forward and stood up on the issue 9 and then the Governor backed down. 10 Now, we come to the legislative 11 staff, and when we look at the legislative 12 staff, they don't have a union. Nobody wanted 13 to speak up for them, and so finally, it was 14 determined to do it in this particular way which 15 is a manner that is disproportionate, and then 16 to use a term, the federal Fair Labor Standards 17 Act, which is really nothing more than a term. 18 It's an act, but it's not even the reason that 19 the Governor's support staff should be getting 20 paid. They would qualify under the State 21 Finance Law as does every other state employee 22 that happens to be part of the legislative and 23 executive staff. 4736 1 And so the real answer to this is 2 that, again, we have played a game to try to 3 gain political advantage, and then to get up and 4 talk about whatever political advantages that 5 the Assembly is trying to take really ridicules 6 the whole process, because if anybody is going 7 to stand on principle, then they can't at the 8 same time be violating the laws of the state of 9 New York. 10 And so, I am -- I stand 11 corrected, Mr. President, by Senator Waldon. I 12 guess it really isn't "we." Senator Waldon got 13 up and talked about this two weeks ago. I 14 talked about it. Senator Gold did. Senator 15 Leichter did and Senator Dollinger spoke about 16 it and so did others, and yet two weeks later 17 we're right back here in the same bill. I feel 18 as if the two weeks of my life meant nothing. 19 I'm still standing here. 20 I feel like Bill Murray on 21 Groundhogs' Day. I'm back up again making the 22 same mistakes that we made two weeks ago as if 23 it was yesterday. And does this mean that two 4737 1 weeks from now zero percent of the salaries of 2 the staff won't get paid if we don't pass the 3 budget? We're going to blame that on the 4 Assembly when, in fact, we come to the 5 Governor. 6 Now, we come to the person who 7 really should account for this situation. He is 8 the person that put this discussion on the table 9 in the first place. Now, either he wants to pay 10 the staff or he doesn't want to pay them. He 11 hasn't answered in the affirmative or in the 12 negative. He has just decided to engage in this 13 sophistry of trying to make some sort of 14 comparison between a federal act and a state act 15 when they both mandate that the employees be 16 paid. 17 If you ask the individual -- the 18 individuals who drafted the federal Fair Labor 19 Standards Act and told them that you were going 20 to use that act to pay some employees and not 21 pay the others, they would be outraged. That's 22 not what the federal Fair Labor Standards Act 23 was written for. It was in -- it was written to 4738 1 protect federal employees, but the under 2 standing was the dicta, the spirit of that act 3 is that everybody would get paid as long as they 4 were individuals who were employees in the 5 actual process. 6 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 7 will the Senator yield to another question? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is that 9 explanation satisfactory, Senator Waldon? 10 Senator Paterson, do you yield to 11 another question? The Senator yields. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: From the 13 distinguished Senator from the 10th Senatorial 14 District, I would do just about anything. 15 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 16 much, Senator Paterson. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 18 just suggest no, I wouldn't do anything but most 19 things. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 yields. 22 SENATOR WALDON: I won't ask you 23 to do anything; I'll just ask you to do most 4739 1 things, Senator. 2 Senator, in your knowledge of 3 this nation, have you ever seen a precedent such 4 as this before in the books you've read and the 5 conversations you've had and the information 6 that's been brought to you by various and sundry 7 sources, that a Governor, on his own initiative 8 and in absolute contraindication of the laws of 9 the state he serves, refused to pay people for 10 their labor? 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 12 through you: Senator Waldon, this is 13 unprecedented. This is, in my opinion, a real 14 misfeasance of duty when if comes to applying 15 the laws of the state of New York. This is why 16 we all, whether we be governors or state 17 Senators or Assembly members, take an oath and 18 that oath means that we're not disallowed from 19 having political agendas. We're not in any way 20 askance from having a point of view. We don't 21 eschew our right to be individuals, but at the 22 same time we have sworn to uphold the 23 Constitution and the laws therein. 4740 1 The laws speak to this issue very 2 clearly. The laws speak to the fact that the 3 individuals who drafted them understood that in 4 a very contentious negotiating process during a 5 budget, that there could be this attempt to drag 6 others into the process, to create a climate 7 that would be more conducive to passing a budget 8 through the individual's eyes. And they ruled 9 on it. 10 They wrote the law, and you know 11 what they wrote, Senator Waldon? They wrote, Pay 12 the staff. They worked and they earned it. Pay 13 the staff, and what's so amazing about this is 14 the contradiction in the roles of those who are 15 going to be paid or not paid. We're going to 16 confirm two people today who are going to get 17 paid. We're just getting around to confirming 18 them, and we have individuals who are making 19 91-, $92,000 a year, $104,000. Mr. King makes 20 104,000. We're not even paying our interns. 21 We're not paying secretaries. We're not paying 22 computer operators; we're not paying support 23 staff. We're not paying people who may live on 4741 1 a check to check basis. We're not paying people 2 who need that money. 3 They're not putting it in an 4 IRA. They're not putting it in savings and 5 loans associations. They're not frittering it 6 away in stock options. They need the money. 7 They need it for the tangibles of existence, the 8 fungibles of life, and we're not going to do 9 that because we're having an argument. 10 What an example that we're 11 setting! What a mockery of the system! And yet 12 getting up and blaming each other on a bi... on 13 a basis of political rhetoric, it really is 14 something that is as unpardonable as whatever it 15 is that's being objected to and so, Senator 16 Waldon, in answer to your question, no, I've 17 never heard of something such as that. 18 SENATOR WALDON: Just to close, 19 Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Waldon. 22 SENATOR WALDON: I may ask the 23 Senator to yield to only one or two more 4742 1 questions. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Paterson, do you yield to another question from 4 Senator Waldon? 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr. 6 President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 yields. 9 SENATOR WALDON: Senator 10 Paterson, let me thank you for your kind 11 indulgence to these questions. I do not want 12 you to specifically blame -- I do not want you 13 to specifically blame anyone for the dilemma 14 that we're facing now in terms of the little 15 people not being paid, but would you, in a 16 hypothetical sense, characterize the refusal to 17 pay the little people in this scenario, an 18 absolute and unequivocal abuse of power? Or 19 could you? I said hypothetical, Senator. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 21 would the Senator please repeat the question in 22 a shortened version? 23 SENATOR WALDON: I shall attempt, 4743 1 Mr. President, through you. 2 Senator Paterson, the issue we're 3 talking about or have been dialoguing about over 4 the past few minutes is an absence of pay in 5 part this week and, in futuro, an absolute 6 absence of pay for the little people and a 7 distinction between those who will be paid and 8 those who will not, with those being paid being 9 closest to certain power zones versus those who 10 are not closest to those power zones. 11 And so rather than be extremely 12 specific about the antagonists in this 13 particular life drama, I ask you in a 14 hypothetical sense, would you characterize an 15 abuse -- an action of this nature, refusing to 16 pay the little people who have, in fact, worked 17 for their pay, and I've said before an absolute 18 unequivocal abuse of power, this time I'll 19 rephrase it and say would you characterize and 20 say in this hypothetical, that this as an abuse 21 of power? 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 23 SENATOR WALDON: I appreciate the 4744 1 succinct response this time, Senator Paterson. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 3 President. 4 SENATOR WALDON: What it lacked 5 in - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Paterson, do you continue to yield? The Senator 8 yields. 9 SENATOR WALDON: Senator 10 Paterson, I will preamble my question with some 11 reflections. We have heard from the other side 12 of the aisle today many admonitions blaming 13 Sheldon Silver for his refusal to put on the 14 table a package that could be dealt with, that 15 could be negotiated. 16 We have heard barbs thrown from 17 both sides of the aisle in regard to the current 18 process and previous processes which we have 19 dealt with regarding the budget. What we need 20 to do in our deliberations, it seems to me, is 21 to come up with an answer. Do you have any idea 22 or any recommendations to the second floor, to 23 our house or to the other house, how we can 4745 1 bring this process to closure so that the little 2 people will not suffer so who live hand to 3 mouth, week to week, paycheck to paycheck, and 4 so that we could come to a resolution of the 5 budget process? 6 And I thank you very much for 7 your indulgence, Senator Paterson, and I thank 8 you very much, Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Paterson. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Pay the 12 staff. That would be my answer, and the reason 13 that I would say that is that, how much more 14 foresighted -- foresighted would it have been 15 had we determined at some time in the past that 16 we were going to handle the situation either by 17 not paying anybody or, if we were going to just 18 let those individuals who are in the decision 19 making process, being those of us who are 20 legislators, let us stand up and take 21 responsibility for the fact that we haven't 22 passed a budget and deny ourselves the salaries 23 during that particular time. 4746 1 Now, I actually think that 2 constitutionally that there is really a 3 preemption to some degree, and that there is an 4 unfair advantage when one branch can influence 5 the salaries or the paycheck receiving of 6 another branch, and that it really impinges upon 7 the constitutional advice that we get on 8 separation of powers. 9 But I'm not even here to discuss 10 really the legislative staff, most of the 11 legislators kind of accept that, but this idea 12 of finding a reason to pay some staff members 13 and not to pay others, and shrouding it in a 14 federal Fair Labor Standards Act which was never 15 intended for that particular purpose, and it 16 just happens that those individuals who qualify 17 under that act work for you and the individuals 18 who are in the legislative branch, meant all of 19 them in this chamber, not just the Minority but 20 the Majority, really is, as Senator Waldon said, 21 boggles the mind as to the integrity of the 22 process. 23 And at that point, to get up and 4747 1 let the public think that we're really talking 2 about budget negotiations when we're spending 3 our time arguing over the same issue we argued 4 over two weeks ago, I just would submit, Mr. 5 President, that this is not the way to run an 6 airlines; it's not the way to run a government. 7 It is really not something that we should be 8 proud of. It really brings a cloud of sort of 9 mournful circumstance over the entire process 10 because it opens the door to the insinuation 11 that we are politicizing the process. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 13 me, Senator Paterson. Senator Waldon, why do 14 you rise? 15 SENATOR WALDON: I wanted to ask 16 one last question. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Gold, why do you rise? 19 SENATOR GOLD: I was going to ask 20 you to yield, but I yield to Senator Waldon. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Paterson, do you yield to Senator Waldon? 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr. 4748 1 President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Paterson yields. Senator Waldon. 4 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 5 President. Thank you very much, Senator 6 Paterson. 7 Senator Paterson, I read in the 8 paper the other day that we're losing $13.2 9 million a day, because we do not have a budget 10 in place. I don't -- my memory may fail me in 11 terms of the specific figure, but I think that's 12 a ball park that's fairly accurate. Are you 13 aware of that figure? 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, that 15 would be 221 -- $224.2 million that we've lost 16 since April 1st by my calculations. 17 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Paterson continue to yield? 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 continues to yield. 23 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 4749 1 considering that we've lost that by not having 2 passed a budget to this date, would the small 3 amount of money that it would take to pay staff 4 put us much deeper in the hole, staff that we've 5 been talking about this afternoon, or would it 6 be minuscule in comparison to that amount of 7 money that we've already thrown away by not 8 having a budget? 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 10 through you to Senator Waldon, I think it would 11 be kind of what Senator Stafford often refers to 12 as de minimus res manos lex. It's such a small 13 amount of money when it is transposed over the 14 incredible amounts of money that we're losing 15 and the fact that we are going to have to put 16 this money back into the budget and pay the 17 staff later on, that it is really a non-issue 18 except for whatever institutional political 19 value it would have, because it is well known 20 that the staff members are considered to be 21 cronies of the elected officials. They are 22 labeled by the press to be at times 23 unqualified. There are allegations of 4750 1 corruption. There are stories that people hire 2 their relatives and their family members to work 3 on their staffs. 4 Very much to the contrary of how 5 -- the staffs that I have had to work with 6 among my colleagues and right here around the 7 Legislative Office Building and the Capitol. I 8 find that these individuals display a high 9 degree of professionalism. They don't know when 10 they're going to go home when they come to 11 work. They don't really have any reprisal if 12 they are dismissed by the principal. 13 They are individuals who work far 14 into the night when we have sessions that 15 evening. There's no overtime pay. I think 16 that, as in any other profession, there are 17 individuals who certainly bring harm to the 18 profession too, by their independent acts, but I 19 think these are people who don't need to be 20 pawns in a chess game, who don't need to be 21 relegated to the uncertainties that they're in 22 right now. 23 And so I agree with you, Senator 4751 1 Waldon, there's absolutely no reason to even 2 fiscally cause the -- the state employees to - 3 the legislative staff to endure a burden. It's 4 not even costing us that much money to pay 5 them. 6 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, 7 Senator Paterson. I thank you, Mr. President. 8 I thank my colleagues for indulging me. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Gold, why do you rise? 11 SENATOR GOLD: Would Senator 12 Paterson yield to one question? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Paterson, do you yield to Senator Gold? 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mayor 16 Gold. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 yields. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I mean 20 this has been going on. Isn't it a fact, that 21 if the truth be told, that we have really lost 22 the day already? We've been talking, we have 23 let the other side convert this into a 4752 1 conversation as to who's at fault, who is not at 2 fault, whether the budget delay is the fact that 3 Shelly Silver did or did not do this or they did 4 that, isn't it really a simple issue that we 5 have a series of bills put forth by a governor 6 who is defrauding the people? He has taken the 7 position that he will not accept money, that 8 nobody should get money while he lives in a free 9 house provided by the people, eats free food 10 provided by the people, who is able to go down 11 to Long Island and apparently come back in time 12 to meet with Senator Bruno, I assume the state 13 plane provided by the people, all of this while 14 we go through the silly machinations of who's at 15 fault. 16 Isn't it a fact, Senator 17 Paterson, that, when Governor Cuomo could not 18 reach an agreement, at least he kept calling 19 people together. It didn't matter whether 20 Senator Anderson walked out; it didn't matter 21 whether Senator Marino walked out. It didn't 22 matter what they did. It didn't matter how 23 insulting they were. It didn't mean how 4753 1 irresponsible they were. It was up to the 2 governor to gulp and keep it going, keep the 3 conversations going, whether it was behind 4 closed doors, out in the front, in the press, by 5 bills, it didn't matter. It was the governor's 6 responsibility to keep it going. 7 Ego is not the issue. The 8 rhetoric that we've heard has been terrible, 9 from everybody. I don't -- I'm not here to 10 defend Shelly Silver. I didn't elect him. The 11 rhetoric's been terrible, but isn't it a fact 12 that the bottom line here is hypocrisy, 13 hypocrisy, because the Governor doesn't keep it 14 going, hypocrisy because the Governor takes his 15 food, takes his shelter, takes his planes and 16 cars and then tells secretaries, come to work, 17 pay your rent, eat. We're not giving you money 18 to do it. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 20 You know, Mr. President, 21 obviously from what I've said, I agree with 22 Senator Gold, but I was reflecting when he was 23 talking about how this could actually come 4754 1 about. I would assume that the Governor is not 2 deliberately out to hurt individuals, and I was 3 wondering how we could be at this point where we 4 are and have both of those circumstances acting 5 in time coordinately. 6 And so my answer to you, Senator 7 Gold is this: Maybe that's the problem with the 8 giving out free cars, for giving out the use of 9 the state plane, that an individual begins to 10 see the process as one of self-righteousness and 11 indignation when it really is emanating from 12 disagreement and public policy -- a disagreement 13 of public policy, excuse me. 14 What we have as a result is a - 15 an attempt to influence the process in -- by any 16 means possible in order to effect the end that's 17 most desired, and so the question that I have to 18 ask, and since I didn't ask anyone to yield, I 19 guess I'll answer it myself. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 21 me, Senator Paterson. Senator Waldon, why do 22 you rise? 23 SENATOR WALDON: A thought popped 4755 1 into my head, and I wondered if the good Senator 2 from Harlem would yield to one question. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 DiCarlo, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR DiCARLO: Also to ask a 6 question, but I'll wait. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Paterson, they're standing in line for you. 9 Senator Waldon has asked you to yield. Do you 10 yield to a question from Senator Waldon first? 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr. 12 President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 yields, Senator Waldon. 15 SENATOR WALDON: I thank you, Mr. 16 President. I apologize, Senator Paterson. I'm 17 not trying to dominate your time, but please 18 suffer this intrusion. 19 It is my understanding that we've 20 had a budget late at least 11 or 12 consecutive 21 years. Is that your understanding in a very 22 short fashion, Senator, because I'm trying to 23 get at something? Is that your understanding? 4756 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, it is, 2 Senator Waldon. I'd just like to add to that 3 that six of those years have now been exceeded 4 by the elapsed time that this budget has not 5 been passed. 6 SENATOR WALDON: And, if I may 7 continue, Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Paterson, you continue to yield? 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr. 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 continues to yield. 14 SENATOR WALDON: Senator 15 Paterson, in all of those previous years, did 16 the previous governors ever, ever, ever say that 17 they would not pay the little people if we, the 18 Legislature, did not pass a budget on time? 19 SENATOR PATERSON: No, they 20 never, never, never did. 21 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 22 much, Mr. President. Thank you very much, 23 Senator. 4757 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 DiCarlo, you asking Senator Paterson to yield? 3 SENATOR DiCARLO: Yes, I am, yes. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Paterson, do you yield to Senator DiCarlo? 6 Senator yields. 7 SENATOR DiCARLO: Senator 8 Paterson, Senator Gold is out of the room, so I 9 will ask you. He's raised the point of the 10 Governor receiving free transportation and 11 everything else that goes along with it. Do you 12 -- and I don't know if Senator Gold any longer, 13 but in leadership positions, do you receive a 14 vehicle, a state car paid for by the taxpayers 15 for your use? 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, I have, 17 Senator DiCarlo, and the fear that I will drive 18 it has curtailed drug dealing and juvenile 19 delinquency in my district. 20 SENATOR DiCARLO: Follow up on 21 the question. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Paterson, do you continue to yield? 4758 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Senator continues to yield. 3 SENATOR DiCARLO: And in the use 4 of that vehicle, does somebody else drive for 5 you? Do you also possess and are continuing to 6 use a credit card for the purchase of gas during 7 this period when we're not paying the little 8 people? 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 10 first of all, the one thing we're not sure of is 11 gas, but the second thing is that, Senator 12 DiCarlo, you may have misunderstood what I was 13 actually saying before, and I'll continue to 14 answer the question. I don't have a problem 15 with that, but I'm not saying that any of those 16 things are wrong. I'm not saying that there are 17 not times that those who are in leadership, for 18 instance, I would rather that the Governor use 19 the state plane. I remember a criticism of one 20 of New York City's mayors once that, why was he 21 using the helicopter so much. I would rather my 22 Governor be able to get from one place to 23 another in the shortest period of time; so, in 4759 1 other words, I agree with that whole concept. 2 What I was saying is that quite 3 often just the fact that it exists allows 4 individuals not to understand that, although 5 they can go a few weeks without a paycheck, that 6 those who are living in the lower frequencies of 7 life, those who have very high bills, we have, I 8 think the average Niagara Mohawk bill is $76 a 9 month right here in Albany. The -- the 10 telephone bill, if you get the flat rate you're 11 paying $25 and you haven't even picked up the 12 phone. I mean these are some of the day-to-day 13 encumbrances that individuals who are not riding 14 on state planes or driving around in state 15 vehicles don't understand. 16 So I wasn't objecting to the fact 17 that we give out those, I think often essential 18 items to try to speed up government. What I was 19 objecting to, Senator DiCarlo, is that the 20 prevalence of their use can lead an individual 21 to the misunderstanding of feeling that, oh, you 22 know a couple of weeks without a paycheck, that 23 won't hurt anybody. But it really can. It can 4760 1 damage people's credit ratings. It can make it 2 such that they're not paying their rent, the 3 landlord starts asking, and the landlord doesn't 4 want to be referred to, not even Governor Pataki 5 but the bureaucrats, as Senator Velella said 6 before, as to who made the determination of why 7 the next door neighbor who works for the 8 executive branch can pay her rent and you can't 9 pay your rent. That was why I brought that up. 10 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President, 11 through you also, a question for Senator 12 Paterson. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Paterson, do you continue to yield to Senator 15 DiCarlo? Senator Paterson yields. 16 SENATOR DiCARLO: Senator 17 Paterson, probably you're not the best person 18 for me to be asking this question, but you're in 19 the leadership position, and my question is 20 coming basically from the angle of hypocrisy 21 from some on your side who attacked the Governor 22 for things which are provided him by our 23 government, but yet I would find that they don't 4761 1 object or they haven't objected or when they 2 were in leadership positions they did not object 3 to continuing some of those perq's they got. 4 So my question to you, and you've 5 answered it, is yes, those little credit cards 6 which are used for gasoline are still being used 7 and I thank you for answering that question. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Paterson, you have the floor. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: I'd like to 12 answer the question again so that I can just 13 make this very clear. I have not attacked the 14 Governor for using the state plane or any of the 15 state cars or the meals or anything like that. 16 I don't have a problem with with it. I think 17 that he should use them, but what I said earlier 18 was not that he shouldn't. What I said was that 19 the prevalence of that type of conduct can often 20 lead individuals to not understanding the 21 difference between the social strata that they 22 may be in and that of individuals who are not as 23 fortunate -- individuals who are not on a social 4762 1 service program, individuals who are working. 2 They have jobs; they work here, and I'm sure 3 Senator DiCarlo will agree with me that they 4 deserve to be paid. 5 Now, rather than reciting a 6 mantra about whose fault it is that the budget 7 hasn't reached a conclusion, what I would 8 suggest -- and this is why, Senator DiCarlo, 9 Senator Waldon got up and asked me why did I say 10 "we", because I did not absolve myself from 11 responsibility, even though I haven't made the 12 decision. 13 I would pay my staff, and I sure 14 would pay myself, but the point that I'm trying 15 to make to you, Senator DiCarlo, is that where 16 have we gotten as legislators when it is our 17 real charge to speak for our constituency when 18 we can't understand why our constituency -- for 19 the most part, people who are not making 20 $104,000 a year or $92,000 a year as some of the 21 Governor's paid unit heads are -- when we can 22 not understand why individuals who make $9,000 a 23 session, $22,000 annually, would object to 4763 1 getting 70 percent of their salary this 2 Wednesday and, if we don't pass the budget by 3 May 3rd, they won't get anything. 4 I'm saying what kind of example 5 have we set for them, engaging in this social 6 diatribe about whose fault it is that the budget 7 didn't pass. That's just the adversarial 8 system. We are going to blame you; you're going 9 to blame us, that's fine as long as we keep it 10 between ourselves, but this reminds me of the 11 school bully threatening to beat up your little 12 sister because you don't want to do what he 13 wants you to do, and what I'm saying is it has 14 no place in the budget discussion and so, while 15 I don't have any -- I don't see any hypocrisy in 16 the Governor using a state plane or anyone in 17 leadership using those items that were 18 designated for their use, I'm saying that the 19 proliferation of that use can often lead us all 20 almost spiritually into looking at life through 21 a different prism, if you would, looking at life 22 such that we have forgotten exactly what it was 23 we were sent here for. 4764 1 Government's credo is to 2 represent people and to understand people, and 3 I'm saying that we can debate what to do with 4 people who don't have jobs in this budget 5 process, but these people did have jobs but 6 somebody decided that their jobs were expendable 7 for a couple of weeks to try to make a political 8 point, mixing apples and oranges and, in my 9 opinion, adding disingenuous to a process that 10 we would like our citizenry to think of in the 11 highest of value. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 DiCarlo. 14 SENATOR DiCARLO: Well, just a 15 quick follow-up question and comment. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Paterson, do you continue to yield? 18 SENATOR DiCARLO: Senator, I just 19 want to assure you - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 yields. 22 SENATOR DiCARLO: -- that I have 23 the highest regard for you, and my question was 4765 1 not pointed at you but you as the representative 2 leadership on the floor on that side. That's 3 why the question was directed, and I thank you 4 for your very honest answer, as always. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Paterson, you still have the floor. The Chair 7 would simply make a notation that this debate 8 began at 3:30. There are four people still 9 wishing to speak and so, my colleagues, can we 10 keep that in mind as we progress with the 11 debate. 12 Senator Paterson. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 14 I want to thank Senator DiCarlo for clearing 15 that up for me and, as long as he will allow me 16 to ride home in my car, then I guess I'll 17 conclude my comments for this afternoon. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 19 recognizes Senator Leichter. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you, Mr. 21 President. 22 Senator Velella isn't here and I 23 want to warn him that he thought he was being 4766 1 given a compliment by Senator Paterson that he 2 might well use in advertisement. You remember 3 Senator Paterson said if he were to find himself 4 being in the unfortunate position of being 5 wheeled in for lethal injection, he would like 6 to have Senator Velella there. 7 I think his point was that he 8 knows that Senator Velella would miss his arm, 9 just as the point of Senator Velella's argument 10 really missed the point of what this debate is 11 about. 12 I'd also say to Senator Velella 13 that, when Senator Paterson said "in your heart 14 you know I'm right" he really meant "in your 15 pocketbook you know I'm right." But I think 16 we're -- the debate, since we seem to be looking 17 at all of the bills before us as one, is really 18 two separate issues. 19 One is, we started discussing why 20 we have a budget and why we don't have a budget, 21 and I think that's maybe not a particularly 22 productive exercise, but it's an understandable 23 exercise. The other one is really the issue of 4767 1 when we do not have a budget, should staff and 2 legislators and the Governor and other statewide 3 officials not get paid? 4 I just want to address the first 5 issue, because I was quite taken by what Senator 6 DeFrancisco said, and I want to say, Senator, in 7 principle I agree with you. I think it would be 8 useful if the Assembly had a bill -- a budget 9 bill out there, and we -- we could address 10 that. But let's, in all fairness, consider why 11 that is not out there. 12 One of the reasons that it's not 13 out there is not just, as Senator DiCarlo said, 14 because the Speaker doesn't have the votes to 15 get it passed. One of the problems that we've 16 created, and here I say "we," I mean Democrats 17 and Republicans, we have more than politicized 18 the issue, and obviously budgets are political 19 issues, but we've been part of what unfortunate 20 ly is a debasing of democracy where any position 21 becomes a focus of such mean attacks, and I'm 22 thinking of the fact that the Republicans are 23 now gloating, as I read today in the paper, that 4768 1 they're going to spend $4 million to show that 2 the Democrats in the Assembly are unwilling to 3 deal with social service expenditures and, as I 4 read about those advertisements, they were such 5 gross misunder... misleading statements. They 6 were lies! They were lies! 7 How can we have any sort of 8 debate on very tough issues which we as a 9 nation, and certainly we as a state have to 10 address, which is the social service expendi 11 tures, a lot of the other things, what are we 12 doing to higher education, and so on, when any 13 time anybody takes a position, it becomes so 14 twisted and just becomes more fodder for 15 political cannons? 16 I think we're all part of it, and 17 I think we see it on the national level. We see 18 the negativism which makes it so difficult ever 19 to have any sort of intelligent debate, and I 20 think that's probably one of the reasons that 21 the Assembly has not put forward a bill. 22 I think a second exception I 23 would take from the agreement in principle that 4769 1 I have with Senator DeFrancisco is that the 2 conference system, while it exists in principle 3 -- and I think it's a significant step forward 4 that we've committed or that Majority Leader 5 Bruno committed himself to that, but we know it 6 really isn't functioning, and we did have this 7 one exercise in connection with the 65 miles an 8 hour speed limit; but I must say with some 9 disappointment that some members went to that 10 conference and said, Well, this is a waste of 11 time, and I think the Majority Leader who was 12 there afterward said, Well, it's a lot of 13 words. 14 Well, you know, that's -- that's 15 what debates generally involve is words. So I'm 16 not so sure that there's a true, honest commit 17 ment on both sides, Majority in the Assembly, 18 Majority in the Senate, that if the Assembly 19 passed a bill that we would truly have a 20 conference committee. If we did, then I think 21 it would be a healthy matter for the Assembly to 22 put a bill out. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4770 1 Skelos, why do you rise? 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Would Senator 3 Leichter yield to a question? 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Certainly. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Leichter, do you yield? The Senator yields. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 8 Leichter, do you feel that because perhaps a 9 joint conference committee may not be called, 10 hypothetically that that's enough reason for the 11 Assembly not to pass a budget and try to move 12 forward to a conference committee? I mean you 13 were one of the strong proponents of a 14 conference committee. 15 You know, there may have been 16 some rough grounds with determining whether New 17 York State, in certain areas, should go to 65 18 miles an hour, but the words, the differences 19 were worked out. They were ironed out the first 20 time it went to conference committee, and there 21 will be a proposal to both houses of the 22 Legislature on a bi-partisan basis, in certain 23 areas of the state to go to 65 miles an hour. 4771 1 Why can't we do it with the 2 budget? We have reasonable people. We have an 3 excellent Finance Committee chairman in Ron 4 Stafford. Assembly Ways and Means, your side of 5 the aisle, has some very, very bright 6 legislators, Senator Galiber. We could have a 7 wonderful conference committee and resolve the 8 differences. 9 But you need a budget from 10 Speaker Silver. Pass the budget! Don't just 11 amend bills and let them sit there. Pass a 12 budget, and let's go to conference committee and 13 have a budget for the people of the state of New 14 York. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator - 16 Senator Skelos, if you're saying that you 17 foresee, and that you're in a position to 18 represent on behalf of the Majority here, that 19 there would be an actual honest conference 20 committee that would really involve those 21 members who are part of the conference committee 22 in making decisions as to what sort of a budget, 23 I would like to see that process. I've stood 4772 1 for it all these many years, and that's why I 2 got up and wanted to make the point that in 3 principle, I happen to agree with Senator 4 DeFrancisco. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 6 Leichter, you can't - 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Leichter, do you continue to yield? 9 SENATOR SKELOS: I'm sorry, Mr. 10 President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 yields. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 14 Leichter, you can't even get to that position of 15 the leaders making a determination as to whether 16 a conference committee could work in resolving 17 the budget differences unless the Assembly 18 passes a budget. So you can't move the process 19 forward. We've tried to move the process 20 forward by voting on a budget, by putting out 21 our bills, as I said to Senator Gold, by you and 22 Senator Dollinger offering up amendments to the 23 budgets, to our proposals, make changes that you 4773 1 thought were appropriate. 2 Now it's up to the Assembly to do 3 the same thing. Put out your document. Put out 4 what budget you would like to see passed for the 5 people of the state of New York. Let the 6 Assembly Minority offer their amendments and 7 then we can move forward. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Leichter. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, in 11 principle, I have no disagreement with you, but 12 I'd like to add -- I'd like you to add one other 13 thing to that, and I think you could at the same 14 time ask that that same sort of addition or 15 representation that I would ask of you be made 16 of the Assembly, that we can try to have this 17 debate without people licking their chops and 18 saying, All right, that's great. Boy, they've 19 given me a wonderful campaign issue, and then 20 going out and misrepresenting positions, as the 21 Republicans seem to be doing. I don't mean you 22 or anybody in this house necessarily, but if 23 what is true of what I read about the ads, it's 4774 1 a total misrepresentation. The system can't 2 function if, every time somebody takes a 3 position, there's going to be that degree of 4 misrepresentation, that degree of attack dog 5 like commercials. 6 Senator, we may have differences 7 and those differences are fair to bring to the 8 people, but I think to misrepresent the position 9 of the Assembly on welfare, as I believe the 10 Republican ad -- advertisements are doing, and 11 the way they're being pictured, Senator, that's 12 wrong. 13 So to make the process work, 14 there's got to be better faith. There's got to 15 be a willingness of people to debate the issues 16 and not to politicize it to the extent where you 17 can't have any -- any debate. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Skelos, why do you rise? 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Will Senator 21 Leichter yield? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Leichter, do you yield to Senator Skelos? 4775 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 2 President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 yields. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 6 Leichter, politics is a tough business and 7 perhaps sometimes people's skin is a little 8 thinner than others, and you can't take the 9 criticism. But the bottom line is, the 10 criticism goes to the basic fact that Speaker 11 Silver and the Assembly Democrats have not 12 passed a budget. If they had passed a budget, 13 laid their cards on the table like -- like we 14 did -- we bared ourselves. We said, This is our 15 budget proposal. We've had the courage in the 16 Senate Majority to take a difficult vote -- to 17 take a difficult vote. But the bottom line is 18 the people of the state of New York are 19 supporting the approach of Governor Pataki, the 20 Senate Majority, to cut taxes, to cut spending, 21 to create jobs, to go to Workfare rather than 22 welfare, and to turn around this state once 23 again. 4776 1 That's the direction that the 2 people want to see this state move, but we can't 3 even take that first small step unless Speaker 4 Silver and the Assembly Majority passes a 5 budget, can't take that small first step unless 6 they pass a budget and have the courage to do 7 what we've done in this body and move the 8 process forward. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I did 10 not hear you make that representation. Now, if 11 you want to go out in an advertisement and say 12 the Assembly didn't pass a budget, that's fine, 13 but some of the ads are totally false. When 14 you're putting out ads saying that Republicans 15 -- that Democratic members of the Assembly from 16 upstate are knuckling under to liberal bosses in 17 New York City, that they want to increase 18 spending on welfare when, in fact, their 19 proposal calls for a decrease in welfare, that 20 is wrong. Make the representation, make the 21 representation that you're not going to engage 22 in that degree of misrepresentation, and if you 23 do that, then I think we've got a better chance 4777 1 of doing what I think ought to be done, which is 2 if there's a disagreement between the two 3 houses, let them each pass their budget. 4 Let me just say one other thing 5 because I think some of the -- some of the 6 people on this side of the aisle and including 7 you, Senator, may be believing there's all this 8 chest beating. We were so brave, we were so 9 courageous; we passed a budget. Well, I don't 10 know about courageous. I saw a Capital budget 11 that some of us criticized and you said, No, no, 12 we're biting the bullet. Next day or a couple 13 days later, we get this, I forget what was it 14 called, Joe Bruno's full employment or economic 15 recovery package - 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Economic 17 development. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- and here 19 these brave people, these people who are going 20 to tighten their belts, and we're not going to 21 have the sort of programs that we had in the 22 past, lo and behold, all of these things come 23 back, and suddenly this balanced budget isn't 4778 1 balanced any more, so in all -- in all fairness, 2 Senator, you ought to admit that what you did 3 was hardly giving the people of this state that 4 balanced budget and the one that shows that 5 we're really going to cut down government 6 programs. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Skelos. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: If Senator 11 Leichter would yield. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Leichter, do you yield? He does. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 15 if I might comment on that, and at least the 16 members in this house, and you, had the 17 opportunity as a member of the Minority to vote 18 on our proposals. I'd love to see my Republican 19 colleagues in the Assembly have the opportunity 20 to vote on a budget that's proposed by the 21 Speaker, to offer up the amendments that they 22 think are appropriate, rather than the Speaker 23 sheltering his members from any possible 4779 1 criticism that they may have in a non-budget. 2 You have capital projects. They 3 offer up amendments, and they don't pass it. 4 Why? They should have the courage of passing a 5 budget and moving the process forward. They 6 just don't have the courage to do it because 7 they know the people of the state of New York 8 last November 8th, when they sent Mario Cuomo a 9 packin', sent the message, they wanted change. 10 We're prepared to give them that change and 11 unfortunately, Speaker Silver still wants status 12 quo. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 14 think the election last year, maybe that's one 15 of the reasons that we're having so much of a 16 problem in passing a budget, there was one 17 mandate and that mandate was that Mario Cuomo 18 having served 12 years should not serve another 19 four years. Governor Pataki started to read 20 that message in a far different way, as you 21 apparently are doing, and he put out a -- and he 22 put out a budget that was highly unpopular. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 4780 1 Leichter. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: May I just 3 finish? 4 SENATOR SKELOS: I'm sorry. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: That was 6 extremely unpopular. He has a popularity rating 7 that is so low, unheard of, unheard of for a new 8 governor, because the fact of the matter is that 9 during the campaign, he never put forward any 10 specifics. You would ask him, Wait a second, 11 how are you going to have a 25 percent tax cut? 12 Where is the money going to come from? And all 13 he'd ever say was, "I'm going to get rid of the 14 energy department." The energy department, I 15 think, has six employees, hardly the $6 billion 16 that that tax cut is going to cost. 17 When people saw what his budget 18 was, they saw the cuts to Medicaid, they saw 19 that he was cutting support for higher 20 education, increasing tuition, all of the other 21 horrors that I see and other people saw in the 22 budget. People said, We didn't vote for that. 23 That isn't what you told us you were going to 4781 1 do. 2 But that -- that's a substantive 3 debate on the budget. We were talking process. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Were those in TV 5 ads also? 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Pardon me? 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Were those in TV 8 ads also? 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Those were - 10 those were in the teeth. But let me say again, 11 make that representation, representation that we 12 will not misrepresent, we will not lie about the 13 position of the Assembly, and I think you're 14 going to have a much better chance of doing what 15 I think ought to be done. There I don't -- I 16 don't disagree with you. I think it would be 17 healthy if we had the Assembly pass a budget, 18 and while it's true -- and I got up and said 19 that without prompting, Senator -- and while 20 it's true that I'm quite critical of your budget 21 and I don't think it's balanced, but you've put 22 out a document and if we could have a true 23 conference committee, you're willing to 4782 1 represent that at least, maybe it would move the 2 process along. 3 I -- I've no difficulty with 4 that. I think maybe some people on this side of 5 the aisle may not agree with me, and obviously 6 I'm not talking for the Minority here, but I 7 think -- I think it would be healthy, but I 8 think it's really crucial that we stop the sort 9 of political attacks, and here I'm not just 10 saying the Republicans, the Democrats too, 11 because how can you ever debate anything when 12 positions become so twisted, become so 13 misrepresented that any -- that anybody is 14 afraid of taking any position? 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 16 would Senator Leichter yield? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Leichter, do you yield to Senator Skelos? 19 Senator yields. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 21 Leichter, we are having, I think, a very 22 productive debate, and certainly when we put 23 forth our budget, we had a very productive 4783 1 debate. Unfortunately, it appears that the 2 Speaker and the Assembly Democrat Majority is 3 too busy watching TV to see if there are ads on 4 TV, rather than having that budget debate with 5 the Assembly Republican Minority just like we 6 had our debate. So stop watching TV, don't 7 worry about TV. There'll be reruns in the '96 8 election, I'm sure, but don't worry about TV. 9 Start debating a budget. That's what the people 10 want. They don't want to hear that Speaker 11 Silver or some Assemblyman doesn't like an ad 12 that's on TV. It's too bad if you don't like 13 it. Debate the budget. That's what you should 14 be doing, in your chambers. Debate your 15 budget. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 17 hope that you're not saying it doesn't matter 18 the degree to which you mismisrepresent 19 positions, the degree to which you're 20 actually - 21 SENATOR SKELOS: That's what 22 you're saying. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Let me finish. 4784 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 2 Gentlemen, if I could, just through the Chair, 3 Senator Leichter, you have the floor. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah. I -- I 5 think what you're saying is it doesn't matter 6 what's on TV, it doesn't matter how we misrepre 7 sent positions, doesn't pay any attention to 8 that, and so on, and I am - 9 SENATOR SKELOS: You're 10 characterizing me now, and what you're saying - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Skelos. Senator Skelos, are you asking Senator 13 Leichter to yield to a question? 14 SENATOR SKELOS: I'm asking - 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: It's 16 important, and I emphasize that. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Let me answer 18 one question before I yield to the next one. 19 I'm just suggesting to you that would be 20 helpful. I'm not speaking on behalf of the 21 Assembly Majority; I haven't talked to the 22 Speaker. I don't know what is prompting him, 23 but I know that I am disturbed about the 4785 1 inability of us to have a productive, 2 deliberative discussion on what are some very 3 tough issues if we're going to get that sort of 4 lip smacking "I've got 'em now, I can 5 misrepresent their position," as the Republican 6 State Committee seems to be doing. 7 I read the comments of Mr. Powers 8 and I think it makes it extremely difficult with 9 that sort of an approach for us here in the 10 Legislature to do what I think you and I 11 genuinely want, which is let both houses pass a 12 budget. If there's a disagreement, let's go to 13 an honest productive conference committee and 14 see if that will work. I'd like to see that. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Skelos. 17 SENATOR SKELOS: I want to thank 18 Senator Leichter for coming to our side now. Do 19 you want the Assembly - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Skelos, are you asking Senator Leichter - 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Well, it may end 23 up with a question. 4786 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Well, 2 Senator Skelos, Senator Leichter has the floor. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: I will yield 4 for a comment or a question. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator Leichter, 6 based upon the fact that you now congratulated 7 us for passing a budget, for at least having the 8 courage to do this and for you having the 9 opportunity to debate us, the fact that we paid 10 compliments on the fact that we've passed it 11 during the light of day, that it hasn't been in 12 the middle of the night, that it's been an open 13 process because all five leaders now, the four 14 leaders and the Governor, participate in the 15 leadership negotiations, my suggestion to you 16 now is, since you are very happy with what's 17 happened in this house, you may disagree with 18 the final document, that you go to the Assembly, 19 you are a senior respected member of the Senate, 20 of the Legislature, that you and perhaps Senator 21 Dollinger, former member of the Assembly, as 22 there are now 17 of us on this side of the 23 aisle, that you go and talk to some of your 4787 1 former colleagues and say, Pass a budget. Have 2 the courage to pass a budget, take the heat that 3 may be there from the Assembly Minority, but 4 have the courage. 5 Would you do that for me, Senator 6 Leichter, please? 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator - 8 Senator Skelos, as my dear friend, Senator 9 Stavisky, said, tell him that you left the 10 Assembly. 11 But, Senator, it would be a lot 12 easier for me, if I could go there and say that 13 a very senior respected member of the Majority 14 in the Senate, holding a leadership position, 15 had said he disagrees with these misleading ad 16 vertisements, that he abhors some of the things 17 that are being said, and to make the process 18 work, he's going to use his best efforts to see 19 that we don't have the sort of lies that are 20 being put out now on television. And I think if 21 you did that, Senator, it would help. 22 Also, let me say that while I 23 have certain agreement in principle with you and 4788 1 Senator DeFrancisco, I think it's hardly fair to 2 say that I've been praising you, and I'm jumping 3 here with joy, and that I'm -- and I'm looking 4 with amazement at the courage that -- that you 5 have shown, but I'd love to see the process move 6 forward. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Good. Thank 9 you, Senator Skelos. 10 But let me -- let me just talk 11 about something I really feel strongly. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Leichter, let me just -- let me just interrupt 14 for a moment here. I would note that the debate 15 started at 3:30. There are still three people 16 who have indicated a desire, but more 17 importantly, three times at least during your 18 discussion with Senator Skelos, the stenographer 19 in the chamber threw her hands in the air 20 indicating to me that she could not take down 21 what was meant to be a historical debate in this 22 chamber, so I would just remind the members 23 there is another purpose for going through the 4789 1 Chair and for showing respect, and that is so 2 that we can get every word that each one of you 3 says down on record; so if you could continue to 4 recognize the tradition of this chamber, I would 5 appreciate it, and I know the stenographer would 6 appreciate it, and all of the historians in this 7 state who are looking to review these records at 8 a future time, I know, would appreciate it. 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Point of 10 information. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, 12 Senator Skelos. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you like 14 us to repeat the debate? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 stenographer is indicating that's not 17 necessary. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Let me just say, 19 and I'm not going to speak for Senator Leichter, 20 but on a bi-partisan basis, I know that I am 21 properly admonished as to the proper procedure 22 in debating a bill. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4790 1 Leichter, the floor is yours to continue. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 3 I agree with everything you've said, and I will 4 be very brief. I did have difficulty with one 5 word you used when you said "meant to be a 6 historical debate." I don't know whether it was 7 necessary to use the word "meant". 8 I do want to - 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 DeFrancisco, why do you rise? 11 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Would 12 Senator Leichter yield to a question? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Leichter, do you yield to a question? 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: I will, 16 Senator, but I -- sure. 17 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: All right. 18 Very quick. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 yields. 21 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Do you 22 recall ever on March 31st, the day before the 23 budget was passed, anyone in this house voting 4791 1 to increase SUNY tuition by $1800 or close SUNY 2 campuses? 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah, I think 4 that the vote was -- the votes that you have 5 cast are going to result in a significant 6 increase in tuition at SUNY, CUNY, probably in 7 excess of a thousand dollars, and will probably 8 lead to the closing of campuses. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 DeFrancisco. 11 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Would you 12 yield to another question? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Leichter, do you yield to another question? 15 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Do you 16 recall anyone on the Senate floor voting to 17 increase SUNY -- SUNY tuition $1800 a year and 18 to close SUNY campuses? 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: You just asked 20 that question and I thought I just answered it. 21 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: You didn't 22 answer it. You said over a thousand dollars. 23 Did you say did we vote a specific increase of 4792 1 $1800? 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, you 3 and I know how tuition increases are imposed. 4 They're never voted by the Legislature. They 5 are the natural result of the funding that we 6 provide for SUNY and CUNY. 7 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Senator 8 yield? Senator Leichter yield to one last 9 question? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Leichter yield to one last question? Senator 12 yields. 13 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: You think 14 it would be misleading in advertising to send a 15 brochure or hang a leaflet that said that 16 Senator Present, Senator DeFrancisco voted on 17 March 31st to raise SUNY tuition $1800 and to 18 close SUNY campuses? 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 20 think I answered it and let me also say, 21 Senator, and I made that very clear when I was 22 answering Senator Skelos, that I believe that 23 both sides, the Democrats, Republicans, have 4793 1 tended to politicize the process to such a 2 degree with very negative advertisement, and I 3 don't mean just here in our budget debate, but I 4 think generally. 5 Would I send out something of 6 that sort? I would -- I would word it much, much 7 more carefully, and I think more -- more 8 precisely, but I think it's fair to say that the 9 result of the vote that was cast here, if that 10 becomes law, if that becomes the budget, it will 11 mean a significant increase of over a thousand 12 dollars in tuition and, as the chancellor said, 13 he's going to have to close some campuses. 14 But let me -- let me address, and 15 I want to do it quickly, I guess one of the 16 reasons, Mr. President, that the debate is going 17 on, as I pointed out, we're really debating four 18 bills at once and the bill that I really wanted 19 to address, and I'll try to do it quickly, 20 because I think it's terribly important, this is 21 the bill that provides for the wages of state 22 employees for many members of the executive 23 branch, but says that legislators and their 4794 1 staff will not be paid, and what we're engaged 2 in is, we're doing this and I tried to make that 3 point last time, because really what this is, 4 it's a debasing of democracy, and I quoted 5 Representative Hyde last time when he said, "I 6 don't want to be part of the dumbing down of 7 democracy," and that's really what we're doing. 8 This is the worst sort of 9 pandering, the idea that in some way legislators 10 and their staff are not entitled to be paid 11 because they have an honest disagreement. I've 12 seen people here working. Now, Senator Velella, 13 you -- I don't know whether you were enthusias 14 tically defending the bill which included 15 legislators and their staff but I've seen you 16 here, I know you're working. I think you're 17 entitled to be paid. Maybe you don't think 18 you're entitled to be paid, but I think you've 19 worked, and I think the members of the Assembly, 20 they've been here, they were here last week 21 until late on Thursday, I think they're entitled 22 to be paid. 23 The idea that somehow or other 4795 1 you're going to coerce legislators into voting 2 for a budget by not paying them is appalling. 3 This is so contrary to what our democracy and 4 our exchange of ideas is based on. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Velella, why do you rise? 7 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator 8 Leichter yield? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Leichter, do you yield to Senator Velella? 11 SENATOR VELELLA: I have just one 12 more question. If you just think back over the 13 history of your working here in Albany, can you 14 tell me, Senator, in a very short direct way 15 when was the first time that you heard the 16 concept of legislators not being paid if there 17 was a budget that wasn't in place and who was 18 the person that first proposed it? Could you 19 just give me the name, if you know? 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: You're 21 absolutely right. It was Mario Cuomo and it 22 was - 23 SENATOR VELELLA: Thank you, 4796 1 Senator. That's adequate. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: And as we 3 know, Mario Cuomo was not above putting forth 4 ideas that I can only say are pandering and, in 5 fact, when he first made that idea -- when he 6 first made that idea, I was sitting next to 7 Senator Skelos and Senator Skelos muttered, "Is 8 he willing to give up his honorariums during 9 that time?" And the point is, though, that 10 Mario Cuomo was smart enough not to carry 11 through on something that was a bad idea. 12 George Pataki apparently doesn't have that same 13 sort of intelligence, and the result is that we 14 now -- that we now find ourselves where our 15 staff -- our staff, they're working hard, has no 16 responsibility for there not being a budget and 17 they're not being paid. 18 SENATOR VELELLA: Will you yield 19 to one more short question? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Velella, why do you rise? 22 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator 23 Leichter yield to one last short question? 4797 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Leichter, do you yield to one more question? 3 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, if you 4 said rather than the lack of intelligence it was 5 the ability of one particular governor to 6 accomplish his goals as opposed to the ability 7 of the other governor to accomplish a goal which 8 you may disagree with. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 10 think you're absolutely right. Mario Cuomo 11 realized he could never accomplish his goal by 12 carrying through on something that he had thrown 13 out which may have curried some political favor 14 at that time with the voters, but which he knew 15 was a lousy idea, so you're right, he did 16 achieve his goals, but George Pataki is not 17 achieving his goals because, as I pointed out 18 last time, this makes it more difficult to pass 19 a budget. You pass a budget, you go back in 20 your district and people in your district aren't 21 going to like the budget. They're going to say 22 "Ah, you voted for it because you weren't being 23 paid." 4798 1 That's the whole basis of this 2 idea. Don't pay them, and force them in that 3 way to pass a budget. That's not how we're 4 supposed to represent our people. We're not 5 supposed to do it on the basis of dangling 6 money, our paychecks, before us. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Skelos, why do you rise? 9 SENATOR SKELOS: I'd like Senator 10 Leichter to yield for a short itsy-bitsy 11 question. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Only if it 13 leads to a debate that the president is going to 14 say "was historical" instead of "meant to be 15 historical". 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 17 is not in a position to rule on that at this 18 moment, Senator Leichter, but Senator Leichter 19 yields, Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 21 Leichter, you mentioned pressure. You've used 22 the word "coercion". Recently I read in the 23 paper, since you're receiving a lot of your in 4799 1 formation from the newspapers, that certain 2 chairman of major committees within the Assembly 3 have refused to meet with people from The 4 Business Council, leaders in industry, whether 5 it's banks, insurance, small businesses, large 6 businesses, because they didn't like the fact 7 that they were exercising their First Amendment 8 right, which I know you're a strong supporter of 9 the First Amendment. 10 Now, these are the Assembly 11 Democrats, some of them liberal, that are 12 exercising, believe in the First Amendment and 13 they are now refusing to meet with members of 14 industry, Business Council people, people that 15 create jobs in the state of New York, because 16 they disagree with the fact that they suggested 17 the Assembly should pass and are supporting the 18 proposition that the Assembly should pass 19 Governor Pataki's budget. 20 Now, do you think that's a bit 21 coercive, that they -- that the chairman of 22 committees in the Assembly refuse to meet with 23 people because they don't like the fact that 4800 1 they're exercising their First Amendment rights? 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 3 don't know why they're not meeting with them, 4 and I know some of the circumstances that people 5 have met with them to let them know that there's 6 a nice event going on, and that they hope 7 they're there and if they're not doing it for 8 that purpose, maybe that's all for the good. 9 I don't know, frankly, what that 10 has to do -- I think the president is going to 11 rule that this is not -- this is not going to 12 lead to a historical debate. 13 But I think that the message has 14 to go out, it seems to me, to Governor Pataki 15 that this is just the wrong way to proceed and 16 not to pay the staff is unconscionable. It's 17 wrong; it's probably unconstitutional. It makes 18 us, to my mind, lawbreakers, and if some people 19 on your side of the aisle or on this side of the 20 aisle feel that this is the way to go, I suggest 21 that it just is more pandering. We're debasing 22 democracy when we do this. 23 So I would -- I would urge very 4801 1 much that we have a good honest productive 2 debate on the budget, that we pass a budget, but 3 that we don't use these coercive measures, and 4 I'm just reminded in the Middle Ages when the 5 Popes were chosen, as you know, and they still 6 are today, by a Cardinals' meeting in a walled 7 in enclosure, and sometimes when they were a 8 little slow, they wouldn't get fed, and the 9 result was that maybe you had some Popes chosen 10 who weren't particularly great Popes. You also 11 had some emaciated Cardinals. 12 It's not the way -- it's not the 13 way to create a consensus that's going to serve 14 the public, and I think all of us who said this 15 is what we ought to do, we've just been really 16 part of pandering, and if I go back to my 17 district, you go back to your district, I 18 imagine the public initially is going to say, 19 Oh, that's right, you didn't pass a budget. You 20 don't deserve to get paid. 21 But I'll tell you this, if you 22 put the proposition to them that you want me to 23 vote for a budget that you don't agree with, 4802 1 because you want me to get paid and obviously 2 the answer is no. So if you look at the premise 3 under which the Legislature and its staff is 4 being excluded from pay, it's really appalling. 5 It lacks any sort of logic, and it's contrary, 6 as I said, I think, to the democratic aims and 7 goals and process that I hope we're all 8 committed to. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The chair 10 recognizes Senator Libous. 11 SENATOR LIBOUS: Pass. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Passes. 13 Senator Waldon? I don't see him in the 14 chamber. Senator Gold? Not in the chamber. 15 The Secretary will read the last 16 section. 17 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 19 recognizes Senator Stafford. 20 SENATOR STAFFORD: I have -- will 21 be very brief, and I believe debate started at 22 3:30, so we're close. 23 I would only say to Senator 4803 1 Leichter, I understand it had something to do 2 with the type of smoke that was eaten, I think 3 that was what really, the decision on the effect 4 that people ate that long ago and as you know, 5 when white smoke went up, it meant they had 6 chosen a Pope; I believe that's correct, isn't 7 it, John? 8 But on this bill, a serious 9 note, the reason we're here is that the Senate 10 and the Governor understand that we had a state 11 that was completely out of control, and some of 12 us who have been here a little longer have to 13 realize it was a lot easier when you could say 14 in your district especially, Don't blame me, I 15 wasn't there. 16 Well, up through the years that 17 gets to be rather difficult, but we did have to 18 make some changes, and we've heard Social 19 Services. That subject was raised. Again, I 20 emphasize, just emphasize, I'm not saying right 21 or wrong, it's just it shows that we have to 22 make some changes and, yes, I do think it was 23 right that we made the changes, but for 4804 1 instance, California has over a million more 2 people in the social service programs than we do 3 and -- and that's all all over the state and all 4 over this state, their budget is less than ours 5 and we took 15 percent of the Medicaid money out 6 of Washington and we are 7-1/2 percent of the 7 people; that's just an example. 8 But unless we make these changes 9 in the budget and get the Assembly to sit down 10 and negotiate as was mentioned and have them 11 either pass a budget or pass ours, we're going 12 to just continue having the problems we've had 13 and the engine that keeps our locomotive going 14 is the economy and, if we were doing things to 15 the economy that was in effect killing it, then 16 we wouldn't have the funds to do anything in 17 this -- in this state, whether it's social 18 services or whether it's the infrastructure or 19 whether it's education or anything and, again, 20 that's why we're here. That's why we're 21 debating this bill. 22 We need to pass this bill but, as 23 has been mentioned here many, many times much 4805 1 better than I can say it, we should be sitting 2 down and we should have the Assembly cooperating 3 with the Senate, with the Governor and getting a 4 budget that we all can live with, that we can 5 afford, so that we don't have this, in effect, 6 emaciation, whatever you want to call it, 7 killing of the economy, because that's exactly 8 where we were going. 9 So I ask that this bill have its 10 last section. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 19 the results. 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 Senator Skelos. 4806 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 2 would you call up Calendar Number 435, Senate 3 4206. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will call Senate Calendar Number 435. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 435, Budget Bill, Senate Print Number 4206, an 8 act making an appropriation for the support of 9 government. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 Senator Skelos. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 22 would you call Calendar Number 436, Senate 4207. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4807 1 will read Calendar Number 436. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 436, Budget Bill, Senate Print 4207, an act 4 making an appropriation for the support of 5 government. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 7 recognizes Senator Paterson. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 9 this is the last chance to stop it. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will call the roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll.) 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 14 President, just on this bill ever so briefly. 15 We've had a lot of discussion about it. I was 16 -- I guess I refer to this as total political 17 warfare where we take the innocent and we try to 18 affect the innocent to somehow affect those who 19 may be guilty, and what I see here is sort of a 20 total political war against our staff and the 21 people who should be paid for what they're 22 working. 23 I regret the fact that we've 4808 1 escalated to this form of total political 2 warfare which means that the innocent people who 3 work for us are going to be punished, are not 4 going to be able to pay their mortgages, not 5 going to be able to, in some cases, to buy 6 food. I know I've got at least one employee 7 with seven children who isn't going to be able 8 to pay his mortgage. He was in a tough 9 situation. He carries two houses. It's just 10 not a good idea. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 23 would you please take up Calendar Number 437, 4809 1 Senate 4208. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read Calendar Number 437. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 437, Budget Bill, Senate Print 4208, an act to 6 provide for payments to vendors under the Women, 7 Infants and Children Program and making an 8 appropriation therefor. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 10 last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 18 recognizes Senator Stavisky. 19 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 20 without objection, I should like the record to 21 reflect that I wish to be recorded in opposition 22 to Calendar Number 276. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 4810 1 objection, Senator Stavisky will be recorded in 2 the negative on Calendar Number 276. 3 Senator Skelos. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: I believe 5 Senator Montgomery wishes to be recognized. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 7 recognizes Senator Montgomery. 8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Mr. 9 President, I would like unanimous consent to be 10 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 175. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 12 objection, Senator Montgomery will be recorded 13 in the negative on Calendar Number 175. 14 Senator Skelos. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr. 16 President. Could we return to reports of 17 standing committees. I believe there is a 18 Finance Committee report at the desk. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 20 a Finance Committee report at the desk. I'll 21 ask the Secretary to - 22 The Chair would recognize for the 23 record that Calendar Number 437 was passed. 4811 1 Secretary will read the report of 2 the Finance Committee. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 4 from the Committee on Finance, offers the 5 following nominations: Thomas J. Murphy, of 6 Latham, member of the Dormitory Authority, and 7 Anthony J. Colavita, Esq., of East Chester, 8 member of the New York State Bridge Authority. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 question is on the nomination. All those in 11 favor, signify by saying aye. 12 (Response of "Aye.") 13 Opposed nay. 14 (There was no response. ) 15 The nominees are confirmed. 16 Senator Skelos. 17 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 18 is there any housekeeping at the desk? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 20 several -- several things to be done at the 21 desk. 22 The Chair recognizes Senator 23 Seward. 4812 1 SENATOR SEWARD: On page 28, on 2 behalf of Senator Levy, I offer the following 3 amendments to Calendar Number 79, Senate Print 4 Number 384-B, and ask that the said bill retain 5 its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 7 Amendments are received and adopted. Bill will 8 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 9 Senator Seward. 10 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes, on behalf 11 of Senator Johnson, I wish to call up his bill, 12 Print Number 2724, recalled from the Assembly 13 which is now at the desk. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 209, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 2724, an 18 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law, 19 in relation to limiting access to commercial 20 fisheries. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Seward. 23 SENATOR SEWARD: Mr. President, I 4813 1 now move to reconsider the vote by which this 2 bill was passed. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 4 to reconsider the vote by which the bill 5 passed. Secretary will call the roll on 6 reconsideration. 7 (The Secretary called the roll on 8 reconsideration. ) 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Seward. 11 SENATOR SEWARD: Mr. President, I 12 now offer the following amendments to that bill. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 14 Amendments are received and adopted. Senator 15 Seward. 16 SENATOR SEWARD: And finally, Mr. 17 President, on behalf of Senator Lack, I move to 18 amend Senate Bill Number 2135-A by striking out 19 the amendments made on March 27th and restoring 20 it to its original Print Number 2135. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 22 Amendments are stricken and it's returned to its 23 original form. 4814 1 Senator Nozzolio. 2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President, 3 on behalf of Senator Levy, please place a 4 sponsor's star on Calendar Number 407. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar 6 Number 407 will be starred at the request of the 7 sponsor. 8 Senator Nozzolio. 9 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President, 10 on behalf of Senator Libous, please place a 11 sponsor's star on Calendar Number 417, Senate 12 Bill Number 1848-A. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar 14 Number 417 is starred at the request of the 15 sponsor. 16 Senator Skelos, we have one 17 substitution at the desk. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Could we have 19 the substitution? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 21 will call it. 22 THE SECRETARY: On page 20, 23 Senator Goodman moves to discharge from the 4815 1 Committee on Investigations, Taxation and 2 Government Operation, Assembly Bill Number 5542, 3 and substitute it for the identical Senate Bill 4 Number, Calendar 309. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 6 Substitution is ordered. 7 Senator Skelos. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 9 there will be a conference of the Majority 10 tomorrow at 12:00 noon, and there being no 11 further business, I move we -- Senator 12 Stafford? 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, 14 Senator Skelos. 15 I was just -- could I just please 16 state for the record that the nomination of 17 Thomas J. Murphy for the state Dormitory 18 Authority was moved by Senator Hoblock, and the 19 nomination of Senator Anthony Colavito was moved 20 by Senator Spano. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 22 you, Senator Stafford. The record will reflect 23 such. Senator Skelos. 4816 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr. 2 President. I move we adjourn until Tuesday, 3 April 18th, at 1:00 p.m., sharp. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 5 will be a Majority Conference in Room 332 to 6 morrow, April 18th, at 12 o'clock. Without 7 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until 8 tomorrow, April 18th, at 1:00 p.m. 9 (Whereupon at 5:35 p.m., the 10 Senate adjourned.) 11 12 13 14 15