Monday, May 1, 1995

5081 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 May 1, 1995 11 3:04 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President 19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 20 21 22 23 5082 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 3 will come to order. Ask the members to find 4 their places, staff to find their places. 5 I ask everybody in the chamber to 6 please rise with me and say the Pledge of 7 Allegiance. 8 (Whereupon, the Senate and those 9 present joined in the Pledge of Allegiance to 10 the Flag.) 11 We are very pleased to have with 12 us the Rabbi Shmuel M. Butman of the Lubavitch 13 Youth Organization in Brooklyn, New York, to 14 deliver the invocation. 15 Rabbi Butman. 16 RABBI SHMUEL M. BUTMAN: Senator 17 Marchi. Ladies and gentlemen. Let us pray. 18 Dear God, by divine providence 19 this prayer is being said on the day of the 20 final recitation of the Kaddish prayer for the 21 revered leader, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, 22 the Lubavitcher Rebbe, whose 93rd anniversary we 23 celebrated just three weeks ago on the eleventh 5083 1 day of Nissan, and you have passed a resolution 2 in honor of the Rebbe's 93rd birthday. 3 The Rebbe often told us that this 4 is the last generation of the Arab exile which 5 will soon become the first generation of 6 redemption, the Messianic era, foretold by the 7 prophets, "Nation shall not lift up sword 8 against nation," and when universal peace and 9 justice will prevail. This grand vision is 10 reflected in Psalm 94, which it is customary to 11 read daily starting from the 93rd birthday. 12 After calling for God to reveal 13 himself as judge of the world and bring a end to 14 the situation when the wicked, quote, "kill 15 widows and strangers and murder orphans," as we 16 unfortunately witnessed in the tragedy in 17 Oklahoma, the psalmist describes how God will 18 bring tranquility and justice to the world and 19 consolation to the righteous. 20 By divine providence the members 21 of this legislative body, the New York State 22 Senate, have been elected by the people of the 23 State of New York to prepare this great state 5084 1 for the Messianic area. As custodians of law, 2 of honesty, decency and morality, the Senators 3 gathered here are privileged to enact laws that 4 create a more honest, decent, law-abiding 5 society, preventing chaos from prevailing. 6 And let me share with you for 7 just a brief moment a few words of Talmudic 8 wisdom. The Talmud says, "Pray for the welfare 9 of the government; for were it not for the fear 10 of the government, people will swallow each 11 other alive." You are the government of the 12 great State of New York. 13 Furthermore, the State of New 14 York is a key state in the United States of 15 America, presently the world's only super power, 16 looked up by all other nations as a symbol of 17 success and prosperity; therefore, it is in a 18 position to beneficially influence all other 19 nations to uphold the exalted standards of 20 justice and freedom upon which this great nation 21 was founded and to which we remain eternally 22 committed. 23 It follows that this State of New 5085 1 York plays a key role in bringing the awareness 2 of these high standards to the entire world, 3 which is reflected again by divine providence in 4 the location of the United Nations headquarters 5 in this great State of New York. 6 It has become customary for me to 7 take this opportunity to place a dollar bill 8 engraved with the words "In God we trust" into 9 this charity box. A charity box reminds us that 10 our obligations are not only towards our friends 11 and neighbors that live around us, but our 12 obligation is indeed to all people throughout 13 the world. 14 Help us, dear God, to bring to 15 all citizens of the State of New York and the 16 United States and the entire world this vital 17 message of practicing charity and how it 18 prepares the world for a brighter future which 19 will reach its fullest potential in the 20 Messianic era soon to be upon us. 21 May the members of the great 22 Senate of the State of New York be worthy of the 23 great privilege that you, dear God, have 5086 1 bestowed upon them and may they be successful in 2 creating a just and peaceful society that serves 3 as a model to the entire world, preparing the 4 way for the universal justice and peace of the 5 Messianic era, and may each of these legislators 6 who serve the public of this state have much 7 success, both in their public lives and together 8 with their families in their private lives. 9 To quote from the text of our 10 Sabbath prayer, "May God reward those who 11 sincerely serve the needs of the public, 12 removing from them all sickness and sending them 13 blessings and success in all their endeavors." 14 And I know, ladies and gentlemen, 15 that we're all worried about the budget, and I 16 know that in honor of the Rebbe you will pass 17 the budget immediately, successfully. 18 Thank you very, very much. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Reading 20 of the Journal. 21 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 22 Sunday, April 30. The Senate met pursuant to 23 adjournment. Senator Farley in the chair upon 5087 1 designation of the Temporary President. The 2 Journal of Saturday, April 29, was read and 3 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing 5 no objection, the Journal stands approved as 6 read. 7 Presentation of petitions. 8 Messages from the Assembly. 9 Messages from the Governor. 10 Reports of standing committees. 11 Reports of select committees. 12 Communications and reports from 13 state officers. 14 Motions and resolutions. 15 Chair recognizes Senator Bruno. 16 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. 17 There will be an immediate meeting of the 18 Finance Committee in Room 332, and that 19 immediately followed by a meeting of the Rules 20 Committee. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 22 will be an immediate meeting of the Senate 23 Finance Committee in the Majority Conference 5088 1 Room, Room 332. That's to be followed 2 immediately by a Rules Committee meeting. 3 Senator Bruno. 4 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator Present, 5 I believe, is looking for recognition from the 6 chair. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The chair 8 recognizes Senator Present. 9 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 10 On behalf of Senator Trunzo, I wish to call up 11 his bill, Print 3661, recalled from the 12 Assembly, which is now at the desk. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 359, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 3661, an 17 act to amend the Civil Service Law, in relation 18 to conforming to the terminology and procedures 19 with the existing practice for obtaining a guide 20 dog. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Present. 23 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 5089 1 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 2 bill was passed. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration. 5 (The Secretary called the roll on 6 reconsideration.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is before the house. 10 Senator Present. 11 SENATOR PRESENT: I now offer the 12 following amendments. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 amendments are received and adopted. 15 Senator Present. 16 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 17 I wish to call up on behalf of Senator DiCarlo, 18 his bill, Print 1984, recalled from the 19 Assembly, which is now at the desk. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 21 will read. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 317, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 1984, an 5090 1 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 2 qualifications of employment. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Present. 5 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 6 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 7 bill was passed. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration. 10 (The Secretary called the roll on 11 reconsideration.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is before the house. 15 Senator Present. 16 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President. 17 I now offer the following amendments. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 19 Amendments are received and adopted. 20 Chair recognizes Senator Tully. 21 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 22 President. On behalf of Senator Skelos, on page 23 26, I offer the following amendments to Calendar 5091 1 Number 260, Senate Print Number 2337, and ask 2 that said bill retain its place on the Third 3 Reading Calendar. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 5 Amendments are received and adopted. The bill 6 will retain its place on the Third Reading 7 Calendar. 8 Senator Tully. 9 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President. 10 On behalf of Senator Cook, on page 34, I offer 11 the following amendments to Calendar Number 431, 12 Senate Print Number 565, and ask that said bill 13 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 15 Amendments to Calendar Number 431 are received 16 and adopted. The bill will retain its place on 17 the Third Reading Calendar. 18 Senator Tully. 19 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President. 20 On behalf of Senator Velella, on page 35, I 21 offer the following amendments to Calendar 22 Number 439, Senate Print Number 3453, and ask 23 that said bill retain its place on the Third 5092 1 Reading Calendar. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 3 Amendments to Calendar Number 439 are received 4 and adopted. The bill will retain its place on 5 the Third Reading Calendar. 6 Senator Larkin. 7 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President. 8 I'd like to remove a sponsor star from Calendar 9 Number 198, Senate Bill 2655A. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sponsor 11 star is removed from Calendar Number 198. 12 Senator Wright. 13 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President. 14 On behalf of Senator Stafford, please place a 15 sponsor star on Calendar Number 491. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar 17 Number 491 is starred at the request of the 18 sponsor. 19 Senator Wright. 20 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President. 21 On behalf of Senator Skelos, please place a 22 sponsor star on Calendars Number 564 and 588. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sponsor 5093 1 stars placed on Calendar Number 564 and - 2 SENATOR WRIGHT: 588. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 588. 4 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you, Mr. 5 President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Bruno. 8 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. I 9 believe there is a resolution at the desk by 10 Senator Marchi. I would ask that it be read in 11 its entirety and move for its immediate 12 adoption. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the privileged resolution by Senator 15 Marchi in its entirety. 16 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 17 Marchi, Legislative Resolution, commemorating 18 the celebration of the anniversary of the 93rd 19 birthday of the revered Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi 20 Menachem M. Schneerson. 21 Whereas, World Jewry is now 22 celebrating the anniversary of the 93rd birthday 23 of the revered leader Rabbi Menachem M. 5094 1 Schneerson, the Lubavitcher Rebbe; and 2 Whereas, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, 3 over his 44 years of dedicated leadership, 4 established over 1500 Lubavitch Centers, helping 5 people of all walks of life throughout the 6 world, from Australia to Africa, from Holland to 7 Argentina, from Moscow to Jerusalem; and 8 Whereas, Rabbi Schneerson's 9 educational activities throughout the globe 10 enriched and strengthened the religious, 11 educational, cultural, moral and ethical fibers 12 of all citizens of the world; and 13 Whereas, the Rebbe proclaimed 14 that the time of redemption has arrived and 15 Moshiach is on his way; and 16 Whereas, the Lubavitcher Rebbe 17 called upon all citizens of the world to prepare 18 for the great redemption with a personal 19 commitment to increase in charity and good 20 deeds; now, therefore, be it. 21 Resolved, that this Legislative 22 Body proclaim the period from April 11, 1995, 23 corresponding to the 11th of Nissan, 5755, the 5095 1 Rebbe's 92nd birthday to July 12, 1995, 2 corresponding to the 14th day of Tammuz, as "New 3 York State 93 Days of Education", as a special 4 tribute to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem 5 M. Schneerson, Shlita; and be it further 6 Resolved, that a copy of this 7 resolution, suitably engrossed, be transmitted 8 to the Lubavitch movement, together with sincere 9 best wishes for success in all their endeavors. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 11 recognizes Senator Marchi on the resolution. 12 SENATOR MARCHI: Mr. President. 13 To reexamine my own personal genesis with the 14 Rebbe and with Rabbi Butman and so many members 15 of the congregation, I go back a period of 16 perhaps 25 years ago when I had the privilege of 17 a one-on-one dialogue with him, and Rabbi Butman 18 assures me that perhaps it was one of the 19 longest periods that anyone ever enjoyed in 20 colloquy with a man of his stature and his 21 spiritual grandeur; and it was, indeed, an 22 exciting experience because he represented and 23 he represents by all those who can identify with 5096 1 the feelings that have been expressed in the 2 resolution the enormous -- the enormous 3 significance it has to mankind in terms of the 4 dignity of each and every individual. 5 The vast majority of mankind at 6 that time was pursuing animism, worshipping 7 rock, stones, the sun or the earth or whatever, 8 but we did not have a beginning of civilization 9 until the appreciation and the commitment was 10 made to the spiritual autonomy of the 11 individual. We were emancipated as men and 12 women. We were emancipated as members of that 13 great society, creatures of God, by virtue of 14 the spiritual significance, communicating from 15 the individual, a cosmos, with the singularity 16 that is not communicable except by desire and by 17 prayer, a thinking that changed the face of the 18 planet; and this call here speaks of and urges 19 the great redemptive effect that is implicit in 20 the message that is shared with us. 21 The Rebbe was a great student of 22 Maimonides, who again reexpressed the 23 Aristotelian underpinnings and philosophy and 5097 1 kept it intact and gave it its greatest voice, 2 its greatest significance. A native of Cordoba, 3 he was a precursor to those who are in the 4 scholastic tradition in the Christian religions 5 of Thomas Aquinas scholasticism, a rich -- a 6 rich cultural and spiritual resource. Mortimer 7 Adler, who was the editor of the last 8 Britannica, was a scholastic, as was Robert 9 Hutchings; and so much of our feeling in the 10 religions that are assembled here and 11 represented in various manifestations, Rabbi 12 Schneerson gave it force and effect, 1500 13 schools throughout the world carrying that 14 message of redemptive effort. 15 A man of sophistication, just in 16 talking with him and communicating with him, you 17 saw that you immediately felt the presence of 18 someone who has a greatness about him, a 19 greatness that came from God, and he shared it 20 so well with myself or countless people 21 throughout the world who were affected by his 22 message. 23 So we are pleased. It's an 5098 1 annual exercise, Rabbi Butman, but we are 2 honored every time you come here. I wish our 3 mechanics and our logistics, notwithstanding 4 budgets and other factors of life, this is 5 important. This is what is really important in 6 life. Why are we here? What is our purpose in 7 life? When we have solved that, everything else 8 seems to recede into it's proper perspective 9 because that is what counts. That is what is 10 meaningful. 11 And your presence, sir, and the 12 presence of your colleagues does us honor, and 13 your call and your exhortation for this Senate 14 and this body -- and you have had that 15 experience with the Assembly -- has to help us 16 all, and we are grateful and we thank you. 17 I ask for the passage of this 18 resolution. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 question is on the resolution all those in favor 21 signify by saying aye. 22 (Response of "Aye.") 23 Opposed, nay. 5099 1 (There was no response.) 2 The resolution is unanimously 3 adopted. 4 Senator Bruno. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Can we open up 6 the resolution, add anyone in the chamber, and I 7 would think that would be unanimous, that would 8 like to be added to that resolution. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Bruno, if it is to be handled as we have handled 11 matters like this in the past, we will put 12 everybody on the resolution at your request 13 except for those people who do not want to be on 14 the resolution. If they would signify it to the 15 desk that they don't want to be on the 16 resolution before we conclude this session, 17 we'll handle it that way. 18 Thank you, Senator Bruno. 19 Senator Sears. 20 Chair recognizes Senator Sears. 21 SENATOR SEARS: Mr. President. I 22 wish to call up Calendar Number 499, Assembly 23 Print Number 2471A. 5100 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 2 will read. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 499, by 4 Member of the Assembly Lafayette, Assembly Print 5 2741A, an act to amend the Personal Property 6 Law, in relation to a buyer's right to cancel a 7 telephone sale. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Sears. 10 SENATOR SEARS: I now move to 11 reconsider the vote by which this Assembly bill 12 was the substituted for my bill, Senate Print 13 Number 1663A, on April the 26th, 1995. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration. 16 (The Secretary called the roll on 17 reconsideration.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is before the house. 21 Senator Sears. 22 SENATOR SEARS: I now move that 23 Assembly Bill Number 2471A be recommitted to the 5101 1 Committee on Consumers Protection and my Senate 2 bill be restored to the order of Second Report 3 Calendar. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 5 Assembly bill is recommitted; Senate bill is 6 substituted on Second Calendar. 7 Senator Bruno, we have two 8 substitutions at the desk if you'd like to deal 9 with those at the present time. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Please make the 11 substitutions. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 13 will read. 14 THE SECRETARY: On page number 4, 15 Senator Maltese moves to discharge, from the 16 Committee on Elections, Assembly Bill Number 17 4959 and substitute it for the identical bill, 18 Calendar 602. 19 On page 20, Senator Volker moves 20 to discharge, from the Committee on Higher 21 Education, Assembly Bill Number 2444 and 22 substitute it for the identical Third Reading 23 Calendar 103. 5102 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 2 objection, substitutions are ordered. 3 Senator Bruno, that brings us to 4 the calendar. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: And now, Mr. 6 President, can we take up the noncontroversial 7 calendar. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 9 will read the noncontroversial calendar. 10 THE SECRETARY: On page 19, 11 Calendar Number 65, by Senator Kuhl, Senate 12 Print 1475, an act to amend the Agriculture and 13 Markets Law and the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 14 relation to exempting farm vehicles. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 17 bill aside. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 120, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 334A, an act 20 to amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation 21 to the recommendations made by the Metropolitan 22 Transportation Authority Inspector General. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5103 1 will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 156. 12 SENATOR LEVY: Lay it aside at 13 the request of the Comptroller for the day. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 15 bill aside for the day. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 199, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 1969, 18 an act to amend the Family Court Act, in 19 relation to notice provided to noncustodial 20 parent. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5104 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 3 roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll.) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 7 is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 202, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2117, an 10 act to amend the Family Court Act, in relation 11 to procedures for the temporary removal of a 12 child with consent. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll.) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5105 1 203, by Member of the Assembly Sanders, Assembly 2 Print 3749, an act to amend the Social Services 3 Law, in relation to persons required to report 4 cases of suspected child abuse or maltreatment. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6 will read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 244, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 1102A, an act 17 authorizing the Education Department to 18 apportion certain transportation aid to the 19 Amherst Central School District. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 21 a local fiscal impact note at the desk. 22 Secretary will read the last 23 section. 5106 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 8 is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 336, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 3668, an act 11 to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in 12 relation to improving the agricultural districts 13 program. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 16 bill aside. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 356, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 3628, an 19 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to a 20 tax deferred annuity program under the board of 21 education retirement system. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 5107 1 bill aside. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 357, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 3653, an 4 act to amend the Retirement and Social Security 5 Law, in relation to permitting pensioners who 6 enter into a marriage following retirement. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 377, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 3941A, an act 19 to amend the Education Law, in relation to 20 directing the Commissioner of Education to 21 include rules concerning the maximum speeds of 22 school vehicles. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5108 1 will read the last section. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 4 bill aside at the request of Senator Dollinger. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 389, by 6 Senator Volker, Senate Print 3179, an act to 7 amend the Penal Law, in relation to offenses 8 regarding unauthorized recordings. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 9. This 12 act shall take effect on the first day of 13 November. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 393, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 2729, an 22 act to amend the Civil Service Law and other 23 laws, relating to service in the Merchant 5109 1 Marine. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 16. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll.) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 11 is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 397, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 3632, an act 14 to amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation 15 to authorizing the Dormitory Authority to 16 construct and finance all necessary and related 17 facilities for the Rosalind and Joseph Gurwin 18 Jewish Geriatric Center. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5110 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 413, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 4048, an act 8 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law and Chapter 9 713 of the Laws of 1988, amending the Vehicle 10 and Traffic Law, relating to the ignition inter 11 lock device program. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 13 will read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll.) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 21 is passed. 22 Senator Bruno, that completes the 23 noncontroversial calendar. 5111 1 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. 2 Can we now take up the controversial calendar. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4 will read the controversial calendar. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 65, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 1475, an act 7 to amend the Agricultural and Markets Law and 8 the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation to 9 exempting farm vehicles from motor vehicle 10 financial security. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 12 Senator Kuhl, there's been a request for an 13 explanation of Senate Bill 3668 -- excuse me. 14 I'm sorry, Calendar 65. 15 SENATOR KUHL: Thank you, Mr. 16 President. This bill is really very simple in 17 the proposal. The State of New York several 18 years ago adopted what's commonly referred to as 19 "farm plate registration legislation." This 20 particular section of the law that's been in 21 existence, as I said, for several years allows 22 for those vehicles which are used by our farmers 23 on a very limited basis throughout different 5112 1 parts of the year, generally during the initial 2 planting and then during the harvesting process, 3 over a span of about three or four or five 4 months of the year within certain limited kind 5 of circumstances. 6 What we did last year was we 7 attempted to bring them into certain kinds of 8 regulations that the federal government was 9 suggesting for safety purposes, and one of the 10 portions of the bill that we adopted last year 11 was specifically to require them to provide 12 liability insurance on those vehicles which had 13 never been required before. What this bill does 14 is attempt to correct that imposition of a 15 mandate on those people out there who are really 16 not causing any particular difficulty and were, 17 for the most part, insured under general 18 liability policies to be able to go back to that 19 particular position that they found themselves 20 in prior to January of this year when the bill 21 that we had passed last year took effect. 22 What we have found is that, in 23 many cases, the insurance that is being 5113 1 required, the premium, is actually more than 2 what the vehicle is actually worth, and we're 3 also finding that there is a very difficult time 4 for many farmers to find the availability of 5 this insurance, so it puts our farmers in a 6 position where they're asked to violate the law 7 if they are going to continue to provide a 8 service and an occupation to this state. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 10 Senator Paterson. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 12 President. Would Senator Kuhl yield for a 13 question? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 15 Will you yield, Senator Kuhl? 16 SENATOR KUHL: I would be happy 17 to, Mr. President. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 19 Senator Kuhl. The New York State Trial Lawyers 20 Association has a memorandum in opposition, and 21 it is their position and their memorandum that 22 the passing of the 1994 legislation to which you 23 just referred had the explicit understanding 5114 1 that there would be a mandatory -- minimum 2 liability insurance would be quid pro quo. Is 3 that your understanding? 4 SENATOR KUHL: I'm not the 5 beneficiary of that memorandum, so I don't know 6 what they specifically said. But it was not my 7 recollection that they were involved in 8 negotiations of the bill last year, Senator, so 9 I don't know that that was one of the premises 10 under which the bill was passed. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 12 Senator. 13 Mr. President, if Senator Kuhl 14 would continue to yield. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 16 Senator Kuhl, will you continue to yield? 17 SENATOR KUHL: I would be happy 18 to, Mr. President. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Kuhl, 20 in your remarks just then -- and I may have 21 missed this, so I am really just asking for a 22 clarification -- you said that we are making 23 some corrections in this legislation to comply 5115 1 with the federal standards. The federal 2 standards, though, don't apply to removing the 3 minimum liability insurance, do they? 4 SENATOR KUHL: They do not. They 5 do not. The standards, Senator, for the benefit 6 of your information -- as I understand it, the 7 standards that were set out, primarily, were not 8 aimed at the farm vehicle exemption. 9 As a matter of fact, there is a 10 provision in the statute, as I understand it, 11 that would allow this state to totally exempt 12 farm-plated registered vehicles. That was not 13 the decision of this state to do that under the 14 former administration. So the only availability 15 to try to lessen the burden of the 16 implementation of those requirements was by 17 legislative activity which took two years for us 18 to bring about and that occurred last year. 19 One of the instances which we 20 prior thought would not cause a problem to our 21 farming community was the requirement for this 22 financial security through insurance 23 provisions. We are now finding out that that 5116 1 was not true, that that is causing tremendous 2 financial hardship to many of our farmers, and 3 there really is no basis by which we're finding 4 that there is the need for that. 5 When you look at the accident 6 rates -- and that's the reason for the federal 7 legislation was to try to cut down and make the 8 travel on our highways safer -- you find that 9 the farming community is far less susceptible to 10 having accidents, particularly as they relate to 11 the farm-plated registrations. I think the 12 average rate is something like -- of the 13 registered motor vehicle operators in this 14 state, roughly 5 percent of them on an annual 15 basis have an accident. What we found 16 statistically was something like .15 percent of 17 the farm-plated vehicles had accidents of one 18 nature or another, and most of them were less 19 than severe. 20 So that the coverage that was 21 previously provided by the general liability 22 policies that most farmers had we're finding was 23 more than sufficient and there wasn't the real 5117 1 need for a specific requirement for each one of 2 these farm-plated registered vehicles to have 3 its own separate insurance policy. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 5 Senator Paterson. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 7 President. If Senator Kuhl will continue to 8 yield. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 10 Senator Kuhl, will you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR KUHL: I would be happy 12 to. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 14 Senator Paterson. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Senator, 16 I can understand why you wrote this 17 legislation. If by my quick calculations an 18 accident from a farm-plated vehicle being the 19 source occurs 1/34th the time that a regular 20 registered vehicle does, then I can see why you 21 would want to make the change. 22 But just so that we have an 23 understanding here, one of the comments that you 5118 1 made previously was that the -- often, the 2 insurance costs more than the vehicle itself; 3 and I just wanted to suggest, and see what you 4 thought about this, that there are plenty of 5 vehicles around the state in which the insurance 6 probably costs more than the vehicle, but I 7 don't think that the cost of the vehicle 8 necessarily relates to the insurance. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: Is 10 there a question, Senator Paterson? 11 SENATOR PATERSON: I wanted to 12 know if that was not the case. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 14 Senator Kuhl. 15 SENATOR KUHL: I really haven't 16 looked at the other areas of the state and the 17 actual value of vehicles and the cost of the 18 premiums as it relates to a comparison with the 19 farm-plated vehicles. I simply brought that up 20 because I thought that Senator Paterson has been 21 more than kind to us in the past to give us what 22 I would call very significant pieces of 23 information relative to history of the state and 5119 1 things of that nature, so I wanted him to be 2 fully informed with the factual information 3 behind this, and I thought that would be a nice 4 piece of information that he would like to know. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 6 Senator Paterson. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. I am enlightened, and if Senator 9 Kuhl would continue to yield. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 11 Senator Kuhl? 12 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, I continue to 13 yield. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I 15 think you perhaps addressed most of this issue 16 by arguing the frequency of accidents, and so I 17 can understand that -- I guess these vehicles 18 don't travel on the regular roadways that much, 19 and they occupy most of their time, actually, on 20 farmland. But there is a little bit of a 21 concern because, when they are on the regular 22 roads, they observe the regular speed limit and 23 the fact that since they travel at a slow speed 5120 1 from time to time that can actually be somewhat 2 of a hazard to other motorists. 3 From what you are saying, that 4 has not resulted in very many accidents if 5 it's .15 percent of the total number of 6 farm-plated vehicles that actually exist. 7 What I think I'm really a little 8 bit afraid of is not, perhaps, the ambit and 9 scope of the legislation that you've issued in 10 this particular case but where it might actually 11 wind up. In other words, that any kind of 12 vehicular owner that can document some way that 13 they are not as hazardous or they are not 14 operating a vehicle that's as hazardous as 15 others can now carve out in our state Insurance 16 Law somewhat of a niche, so to speak, so that 17 they can reduce their minimum insurance 18 coverage. 19 I guess all this has to end in a 20 question somewhere, Senator Kuhl; and as I 21 continue to think of one, I just wanted to ask 22 you whether you think that this is the limit of 23 the legislation, or do you think this opens the 5121 1 door for, perhaps, passage of legislation that 2 would actually impede those who become victims 3 of accidents from receiving insurance coverage? 4 SENATOR KUHL: Senator Paterson, 5 I would not be nervous about the setting of 6 precedent and then opening the door to other 7 groups coming in and asking to be relieved of 8 the financial security commitment; and I say 9 that because that has been the law in the State 10 of New York that farm-plated vehicles have not 11 had to have specific liability coverage for them 12 until we passed a bill that became effective in 13 January, just three months ago, of this year. 14 What I would say to you, just 15 statistically, Senator Paterson -- this would be 16 according to my statistics that we had for the 17 last year where all the data has been 18 accumulated -- there were something like -- just 19 slightly less than 26,000 registered farm-plated 20 vehicles. Now, these are vehicles like a big 21 old dump truck that's going to carry watermelons 22 from the field back to the farm so that they 23 then can be moved to a big 18-wheeler transport 5122 1 commercial operator that's going to take these 2 to market whether it's in New York City or 3 Chicago or Florida, wherever it happens to be. 4 There is a specific limit that these vehicles 5 have to plot out. They have to file a statement 6 as to where they travel. They are limited as to 7 the mileage from the base farm where they can 8 go. 9 And what we're looking at is a 10 way of trying to, as we have with regard to the 11 compliance -- with some of the equipment 12 compliance rules that we have -- we have 13 vehicles that, for instance, drive down into a 14 field. They get involved in the mud and in 15 getting out of the mud, all of a sudden a brake 16 light or something like that is broken away, or 17 a bumper or something like that. Well, the 18 minute they come back on the road, they're in 19 violation. But there's no way for them to get 20 back to where it's to be repaired without being 21 in violation, so the farm plate registration was 22 put into place so that there would be minor 23 kinds of variances from, say, the requirements 5123 1 that would allow them to operate, operate 2 efficiently without causing them great 3 impediment. 4 That's what this is all about. 5 As I say, I'm not worried about this bringing 6 about an onslaught of trying to vary the actual 7 financial insurance regulatory controls. See, 8 what you have to think about is from the other 9 side. 10 I know the trial lawyers would 11 like to say -- well, they'd like to have this 12 big pot of money out there that they can sue, so 13 that when they sue and they get their one-third 14 contingency fee that they know they're going to 15 get money from an insurance company. Okay. 16 Keep this thought in mind. If, 17 in fact, that insurance policy is not in place, 18 who ends up bearing the financial 19 responsibility? The farmer himself. He will, 20 if they don't carry the insurance policy -- and 21 most of them do in some general liability form. 22 If they don't have that, then what do they put 23 up for the offering if they are negligent to the 5124 1 point that they're going to have a recovery or a 2 judgment granted against them? They put up the 3 farm. Most of these people are not willing to 4 lose their farm over something like this. So 5 they will either provide the coverage or, in 6 fact, they will provide the farm as an 7 alternative. 8 Now, most of these people don't 9 go out to violate the law; and, as I said, out 10 of those 26,000 registered, there were 39 11 accidents in 1991. So it's a relatively small 12 piece of what we're dealing with here. 13 And what we're trying to do is 14 take this back to the way it was four months ago 15 and allow it to operate. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 17 Senator Paterson. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 19 much, Mr. President. I believe that Senator 20 Leichter would like to be recognized. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 23 Senator Leichter. 5125 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator 2 Kuhl would yield, please. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 4 Senator Kuhl, do you yield? 5 SENATOR KUHL: I will be happy to 6 yield to Senator Leichter. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: I have been 8 listening very carefully to your very articulate 9 answers to the questions that Senator Paterson 10 asked, and some of the things you said just 11 piqued my interest on this bill. 12 If I understand what you're 13 saying is that many of the farmers that own 14 these farm vehicles presently carry 15 comprehensive liability insurance. Is that 16 correct? 17 SENATOR KUHL: That's my 18 understanding, Senator. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Now, if they 20 carry that insurance, doesn't that meet the 21 requirement of this law - 22 SENATOR KUHL: No. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- that they 5126 1 be insured? 2 SENATOR KUHL: No. Because it 3 says each specific farm-plated registered 4 vehicle has to have an insurance policy on it 5 not a general comprehensive. That's the mistake 6 we made, Senator. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. 8 SENATOR KUHL: That's the mistake 9 we made that we're trying to correct through 10 this legislation. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if I 12 carry comprehensive insurance and now the law 13 requires that that is not sufficient but that 14 I've got to cover each of my vehicles, the 15 additional cost must be minimal because the 16 essential nature of the coverage really doesn't 17 change. If you carry comprehensive insurance, 18 you are engaged in an accident, I assume the 19 insurance is written in such a way that it would 20 cover that accident. 21 But now we say each vehicle has 22 to have its own insurance policy. But I would 23 assume the limits -- in fact, it's clear, 5127 1 because the limits are very minimal, as you 2 know, that the limits are certainly less than 3 what the general coverage is. All you've got to 4 do is specify each vehicle. That, to my mind, 5 can not conceivably increase the premium by very 6 much, if at all. 7 SENATOR KUHL: I'm not so sure 8 that your assumption is correct, Senator. 9 The information that I have been 10 given is that when you start to go away from the 11 general liability policy and you have a law, 12 which we adopted in this house last year, and 13 provide specifically that each farm-plated 14 registered vehicle will have its own policy, now 15 you start to deal with issues like, "Who drives 16 these vehicles?" Okay. 17 We have -- we have -- and the 18 farming community had a great deal of difficulty 19 getting help. It's been a major issue, and you 20 have, Senator, supported in the budgets that we 21 have passed programs that essentially have 22 allowed for training programs to bring new labor 23 to the farming community. 5128 1 What I'm saying to you is that 2 if, in fact, an 18-year-old, 19-year-old, 3 somebody under the age of 25, is now going to be 4 responsible for driving this tractor with a 5 wagon behind it with watermelons on it to the 6 farm from the field, all of a sudden you start 7 to get into a different kind of a 8 classification, and the experience is showing us 9 -- and, in fact, sometimes insurance is not 10 available; that's number 2, but number 1 -- that 11 the cost of providing individual insurance for 12 each one of these vehicles that's only used on a 13 limited basis is very expensive, and it's a new 14 kind of cost, a mandate -- a mandate, if you 15 will, coming from this chamber upon a lot of 16 individuals out there that is extremely costly. 17 What we're trying to do is just 18 to take us back to where we were three months 19 ago, remove this impediment to the continuation 20 of agricultural industry in this state and make 21 it as it was. 22 We have no -- we have no reason, 23 Senator, and that's what I'm saying here. This 5129 1 is why I presented the bill. This is not a 2 safety issue. That's not why it was brought 3 up. It's not a question of not having the 4 resources if there is an accident. It's a 5 question of simply imposing a mandate that has 6 no basis factually for initialing. 7 Because, again, as I reiterated 8 to Senator Paterson, if you look at the 9 comparative accident rates, this grouping of 10 registered motor vehicles compared to the 11 average motorist in this state, you will find 12 that they are I think he said 1/34th. I don't 13 know whether his math is correct or not. I 14 assume it is. I have never known him to distort 15 anything at all, and I have no reason to 16 challenge that, but it is significantly less. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 18 President. If Senator Kuhl will continue to 19 yield. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 21 Senator yield? Senator Cook, do you yield? 22 SENATOR KUHL: (There was no 23 response.) 5130 1 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: He 2 will yield. 3 SENATOR KUHL: I will be happy 4 to. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm not an 6 expert on insurance, and I see that Senator 7 Velella isn't here but Senator Solomon is, and 8 maybe they can help me. 9 But I have a lot of difficulty 10 understanding the arguments that you are 11 making. If, in fact -- and I believe that to be 12 the case -- farm vehicles are involved in 13 relatively few accidents -- and the reason for 14 that is because it's rare that they are on the 15 road. They are usually on the fields. So the 16 extent of the possible liability is rather 17 small. That certainly must be taken into 18 account by the people who rate what the premium 19 is going to be. 20 When you and I buy insurance, 21 we're asked questions: "How do you use your 22 car? Where do you drive it?" and so on. If you 23 show that you rarely drive your car, your 5131 1 insurance is going to be somewhat less. 2 Somebody like you who drives it here every week, 3 I assume that you come under a qualification - 4 or classification that imposes rather high 5 premiums on you. 6 But all of that, Senator, is also 7 taken into account when you write the general 8 liability insurance, the fact that the vehicle 9 may be driven by a 17-year-old or an 18-year-old 10 is something that is considered when they rate 11 the general liability. 12 My point is that I just can't see 13 that this particular bill imposes a much greater 14 premium on those farmers who have the general 15 liability. The concern really is that some 16 farmers do not have general liability coverage; 17 and now, under your bill, they will not have any 18 coverage whatsoever. 19 So I guess my question is, and 20 maybe -- I don't know whether Senator Solomon 21 will yield and whether my understanding or my 22 guessing I should say of insurance is correct, 23 but - 5132 1 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: But 3 wouldn't -- Senator Solomon, if you would yield 4 maybe to the lucidation of both Senator Kuhl and 5 myself. But wouldn't, as a practical matter, 6 that if you have general liability insurance and 7 now along comes the state Legislature and says 8 you got to get specific insurance covering every 9 farm vehicle that you use, that the increase 10 such as it would be is mainly related to 11 administrative costs of the insurance company 12 and that, therefore, there should not be a great 13 increase in the premium? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 15 Senator Solomon, would you have yield to that 16 question? 17 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes, Mr. 18 President. 19 Senator Leichter, the answer is, 20 I think, a little more complex. I believe that 21 in most cases general liability insurance will 22 not cover motor vehicles. So the question is 23 whether or not the vehicles are even covered. 5133 1 You have to take a look at the policies, and I 2 don't know what policies are purchased and what 3 the riders are in the individual cases. 4 The other part of your question 5 is, based on experience, your rates will be 6 relatively low, based on the amount of time 7 driven, et cetera, but you have to look at the 8 general liability policy. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 10 Senator Leichter. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 12 President, just briefly on the bill. 13 I think Senator Solomon -- and 14 I'm grateful to him for explaining it -- points 15 out something that is even more serious than the 16 point that I was trying to make which dealt just 17 with the economics. He points out that general 18 liability may conceivably not cover these farm 19 vehicles which is maybe one of the reasons that 20 we passed last year's bill. 21 So that when Senator Kuhl says, 22 "Well, you really don't need the coverage for 23 the individual farm vehicles because most 5134 1 farmers are covered by general liability 2 insurance," if Senator Solomon is correct, then 3 that general liability insurance would not cover 4 these farm vehicles. 5 Now, Senator, the fact that these 6 vehicles are driven really very rarely and 7 infrequently on public highways or certainly for 8 very short distances would mean really that the 9 amount of premium would be relatively low. 10 Because, certainly, the insurance company takes 11 a look at what the usage of the vehicle is. 12 My concern and the reason I 13 oppose this bill is that we also have to provide 14 some coverage, some protection for the people 15 who are on the road; and while my experience has 16 been -- and as you know is I have a place in the 17 farm country -- that people who drive these farm 18 vehicles are very careful. They're extremely 19 courteous. They try to pull over so that they 20 don't impede traffic and so on. 21 But every once in awhile 22 accidents do occur, and we have to be concerned 23 about the people that are involved in those 5135 1 accidents or injured as a consequence of these 2 accidents through no fault of their own who are 3 probably farmers also or who are people related 4 to farmers, and we need to be concerned about 5 their protection, too. 6 So I think we were right when we 7 passed that bill last year. I think we ought to 8 require that farm vehicles be insured for the 9 protection of the overall public, and I think if 10 you look at it the cost just cannot be that 11 great. I don't think it is; and as Senator 12 Paterson pointed out, many people in this state 13 pay an insurance that is greater than the book 14 value of their car. My car has reached just 15 about that point. I hope on that occasion you 16 will put in a bill that will provide some 17 relief. 18 In all seriousness, I think we 19 need to look at the broader public, and the 20 public deserves the protection that the present 21 law gives. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 23 Read the last section. 5136 1 Oh, excuse me. Senator 2 Dollinger. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 4 President. Would Senator Kuhl yield to just one 5 question on this to make -- make sure I 6 understand it? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 8 Senator Kuhl, will you yield? 9 SENATOR KUHL: Absolutely. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So I 11 understand this bill, through you, Mr. 12 President. 13 This requires that before the 14 license of a farm vehicle be issued we now 15 require that they have vehicle coverage in order 16 to get the license plate? Is that what is 17 currently required by law in this state? 18 SENATOR KUHL: Procedurally, 19 Senator Dollinger, I don't know that I can 20 answer that. All I can tell you is the law 21 requires now that a farm-plated vehicle that's 22 registered that it have a specific insurance 23 policy that names that vehicle. Now, as to 5137 1 whether or not you can get a license before and 2 you have to show proof of insurance, I can't 3 tell you what the procedural aspects of that is. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The reason 5 why I asked -- on the bill, Mr. President -- the 6 actual text of the bill makes reference to the 7 fact that they are registered pursuant to 8 Section 13 -- Subdivision 13 of Section 401 of 9 the Vehicle and Traffic Law, and I assume the 10 reason why this problem came up was because they 11 were looking for renewal of licenses, and the 12 state has denied them the renewal of those 13 licenses until they present, like every other 14 motor vehicle would in this state, evidence of 15 insurance coverage for the vehicle. 16 Through you, Mr. President. That 17 wasn't really posed as a question; but if 18 Senator Kuhl has information on that, I'd 19 appreciate it. 20 SENATOR KUHL: If I may respond 21 to that statement. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 23 Senator Kuhl. 5138 1 SENATOR KUHL: I don't believe 2 that that's necessarily true, Senator 3 Dollinger. We have -- as I mentioned, in 1991, 4 there were roughly 26,000 registered farm 5 vehicles. What we have done, because this law 6 now has taken in effect in January -- I'm sure 7 that there were other registered vehicles whose 8 registration was already in effect, and now what 9 we're doing is saying to these people who have 10 registered vehicles who have not had to have 11 specific insurance policies naming those 12 vehicles that, in fact, they have to have this 13 insurance. 14 These people -- I know some of 15 them have gone out to the insurance marketplace, 16 have sought out insurance and have had great, 17 great difficulty in finding a company that would 18 write the policy. Now, in one aspect we have 19 put one segment of this society in a position 20 that they, in fact, have gone out to get 21 insurance; they can't get it; so now what do you 22 do? Do you continue utilizing that farm vehicle 23 when you know it's registered properly and has 5139 1 been except that you haven't provided the 2 insurance? Or do you take it off the road 3 because you can't get insurance -- "road" so to 4 speak, from the farm field to the farm -- and 5 not use it so that it sits there as an item, an 6 asset, which has no value? 7 That's one aspect. Certainly, 8 there are others, and also those people who have 9 newly acquired farm vehicles who are looking to 10 go out and comply to this. But I can't speak to 11 whether or not these people have been denied a 12 registration because they haven't provided the 13 actual little insurance rider that says, "I have 14 insurance". 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 16 President, on the bill. I'm going to vote 17 against this bill. I favor the concept of 18 expanding liability coverage for vehicles that 19 are out on the road. I think the one danger, 20 and Senator Kuhl, I think, hit it right on the 21 head -- I mean the dilemma is, if you don't have 22 coverage, you put your own personal assets at 23 risk if there is an accident, and one of the 5140 1 things we have done in this state through 2 mandatory insurance laws is that we don't put a 3 plaintiff, an injured party, in the position of 4 having to take your farm as a way to settle his 5 or her claim. There is liability insurance 6 available from which there is a pot of money 7 that will allow the plaintiff to be compensated 8 without putting them in a position of having to 9 take over a dairy farm or a truck farm in order 10 to recover a proper return. 11 So I generally favor the 12 expansion of mandatory motor vehicle 13 indemnification, and I also favor that with 14 respect to other operations, including dram 15 shops, so - 16 I think this is a step backward, 17 and I am going to be voting in the negative. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 19 Senator Johnson. 20 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President. 21 I have been listening to this debate. I felt I 22 could contribute to it, but I didn't really want 23 to intervene, but I think it's pretty obvious 5141 1 that we need somebody who knows a little more 2 about the procedures, both with insurance and 3 farm operations, than has been evidenced here by 4 the debate so far. 5 I have operated a farm. I worked 6 on farms. I have run an insurance agency and 7 have some knowledge of the situation which we're 8 addressing here. 9 Farm comprehensive liability 10 coverage not only -- it covers all the farm 11 operations and all the equipment of the farm, 12 obviously. We see farmers going down the road, 13 towing a plow, towing a cultivator, towing some 14 sort of a harvesting machine. We know that they 15 have trucks which are part of the operation. 16 They go out in the field with a truck, load it 17 up, bring it back to the farm. They may have 18 several locations on the same road. 19 Now, all their equipment is 20 covered. Whether they're plowing or planting or 21 cultivating or harvesting, or whatever they're 22 towing down the road from one point to the 23 other, is covered under comprehensive general 5142 1 farm liability, as you can well imagine, because 2 these farmers are not total fools. They have 3 assets worth $100,000 up to a million dollars, 4 their total operation. They are not going to 5 put that at risk by not having any protection. 6 The difference is -- and, yes, 7 you can take a farm truck. You could go in and 8 you can say it's a farm truck and you just hand 9 it, give him a dollar, and they'll give you the 10 plate. They don't ask about insurance, because 11 they know it's generally covered under the 12 liability policy. 13 In fact, the farmers are very 14 concerned about protecting themselves, and the 15 only people who didn't know whether or not there 16 was insurance, perhaps, would be the trial 17 lawyers, and I see they're taking quite an 18 interest in this bill. I think it's a very 19 inappropriate interest. We shouldn't be 20 concerned about other interests who want to feed 21 off people, but we should be concerned about the 22 farm operation, and I say that if they're smart 23 enough to operate a farm they are probably smart 5143 1 enough to look out for their own interest 2 without somebody in this chamber saying you got 3 to buy liability insurance. 4 If you're going to require that 5 on the farm truck, why not on the tractor? Why 6 not on the seeder? Why not on your cow that 7 wanders in the road or your horse and somebody 8 runs into it and sues you because you have an 9 animal running loose in the street? I'm just 10 saying all those things are already covered. 11 Most people look out for that. 12 The bill last year was 13 inappropriate. I didn't take any particular 14 interest in it because -- I have a personal 15 interest. I didn't vote against it. I just let 16 it go. If that was what the sponsor thought, 17 and the Farm Bureau and other people felt it was 18 appropriate, I didn't speak on it. 19 I think I have to speak now 20 because we're just reverting back to the 21 situation where it was before, where there was 22 no problem. So we have created a problem. 23 Let's solve the problem and support this bill. 5144 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3 Senator Leichter. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 5 would Senator Johnson yield? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 7 Senator Johnson, will you yield? 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, thank 9 you for the explanation. You certainly 10 clarified one point, and you obviously disagree 11 with what Senator Solomon says; and I accept 12 what you say, that if a farmer now has general 13 liability coverage it will include all of the 14 farm vehicles, including those vehicles that we 15 are talking about. Did I understand you 16 correctly? 17 SENATOR JOHNSON: That's correct. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Will you 19 answer the question that I raised with Senator 20 Kuhl; and that is, if you have that general 21 liability insurance and now the Legislature 22 requires that you separately insure each of your 23 vehicles and you go to your insurance company 5145 1 and say, "Hey, guys, you've already insured me 2 but now you have to specify that all three of 3 these trucks that go in the fields and pick up 4 watermelon have coverage," why would that 5 increase the total amount other than the 6 administrative expenses involved for the 7 insurance company in writing maybe three 8 policies or putting riders onto the general 9 coverage that you have, the general liability 10 coverage, to indicate that each of these 11 vehicles is covered? 12 SENATOR KUHL: Probably because 13 it creates an underwriting problem. Because, 14 right now, a farm is based on the size of the 15 farm and its operation and that premium covers 16 everything. They don't ask who's driving the 17 tractor, who's planting the seeds, who's driving 18 the hay wagon back to the farm. There's no 19 information on individual drivers or operators. 20 Then, you would have to get all 21 that information. You don't even know who you 22 are going to have because they're seasonal help 23 involved in these things. There's equipment 5146 1 maybe you might borrow from a neighboring farmer 2 that's not registered. You can't -- when your 3 wagon breaks down or your tractor breaks down, 4 have you got to call your insurance company or 5 somebody and tell them, "I'm going to change a 6 wagon on my policy or change a tractor on my 7 policy"? 8 It's very cumbersome and involved 9 and it costs money to have people shuffle all 10 these papers, and the result wouldn't be any 11 different, except that you couldn't get your 12 crop in while the rain was coming down because 13 your equipment broke and you couldn't use 14 someone else's, perhaps. 15 So I'm just saying there's a lot 16 of complications involved in underwriting which 17 are not present when you underwrite a policy 18 now, which you shouldn't introduce into the 19 equation. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 21 If Senator Johnson will yield to at least one 22 more question. 23 Senator, right now, when you get 5147 1 that general liability coverage and, as you say, 2 you have to indicate the size of the farm, it 3 would seem to me you would also have to indicate 4 the number of farm vehicles that you have. 5 Isn't that the case? 6 SENATOR JOHNSON: No, it's not 7 the case. But if it were the case, it could be 8 done; but I'm saying -- you would have to 9 indicate then you get new vehicles, you take old 10 ones off. You know how farmers do. A salesman 11 gets ahold of him, "Your tractor's getting kind 12 of old, John. You need a new one. Yeah, I'll 13 give you 3,000 on this one and it's 300 a 14 month." And he'll say, "Okay. Drop it off." 15 And they'll tow your other one away, and there 16 you go. 17 So I mean it's a lot simpler 18 operation now under the insurance than it would 19 be if you have to name the equipment and the 20 drivers and everything else. That's what I'm 21 saying, Senator. Maybe they would tell you, "We 22 don't want any 17-year-olds driving." Well, the 23 17-year-olds are doing all the work on the farms 5148 1 in the summer. Then they wouldn't be able to do 2 that, for example, and don't quote me on the 3 age. It could be 18, but I'm saying you don't 4 have a steady crew all year long because you 5 plant in the spring, you harvest in the fall, 6 and the rest of the time you push the snow 7 around in your yard. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 9 Senator Leichter. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you, 11 Senator Johnson. I just want to point out 12 again, if I understood what Senator Johnson said 13 and boiling it down to its essential, it does 14 become a matter solely of administration and 15 maybe some additional work for the farmers for 16 those -- and that's probably 90 percent -- who 17 have general liability coverage, so they are 18 really not bothered by this bill except they 19 maybe have to do some additional work. 20 But the problem that we tried to 21 address last year and the hole that you are 22 going to create if you pass this bill is that 23 those farmers who don't have the general 5149 1 liability coverage then will be totally 2 uninsured, and that leaves the public at risk, 3 and that, I think, is the problem that I see 4 with this bill. 5 Additionally, as Senator 6 Dollinger points out, you know, to say to 7 people, "Well, they've always got the family 8 farm; you can go and try to execute your 9 judgment against them on the family farm," I 10 don't think that's an answer. I think the 11 public needs protection. 12 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, you 13 may not recall, it was not too many years ago 14 when there was no liability insurance required 15 for automobiles, and people bought coverage, 16 most responsible people -- who had something at 17 risk, that's true. Other people will have to 18 pursue the common law remedy that they've always 19 had of going to court and suing the responsible 20 person. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 22 Senator Leichter. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 5150 1 Johnson, just -- since I take it sort of that 2 was a question to me. You're right. We had no 3 liability insurance, and there were people who 4 suffered terrible injuries and damage and 5 economic loss, and they were unable to recover. 6 There were responsible people like you, Senator 7 Johnson, that always carried insurance and so 8 on; but you and I know that a certain percentage 9 of the population did not; and the same thing, 10 I'm sure, must be true about farm vehicles, and 11 I think we have an obligation to protect the 12 public; and when the costs, as I think I 13 established through my questions to you and to 14 Senator Kuhl, are relatively minor, it seems to 15 me that the balance really falls in favor of 16 protecting the public. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 18 Senator Johnson? 19 (There was no response.) 20 Okay. Read the last section. 21 Excuse me. Senator Hoffmann. 22 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr. 23 President. I have listened with great interest, 5151 1 and there is one larger philosophical issue I 2 would ask some of my colleagues to consider 3 before casting a vote on this bill. We are 4 addressing the number 1 industry in New York 5 State, agriculture, as we take a look at this 6 bill; and regardless of the impact on individual 7 farmers, we have a responsibility in this house 8 and in the other house of the Legislature to do 9 what we can to ease some of the regulatory 10 burdens and to ease some of the financial 11 burdens on the industry of agricultural just as 12 we try to ease the burden on other industries in 13 New York State. 14 I think it's been well-documented 15 and there is great sympathy in this chamber for 16 the plight of farmers. But let's not make light 17 of that plight in this debate. Even minor 18 inconveniences can cost farmers an inordinate 19 amount of money. Even minor inconveniences can 20 slow down their ability to attend to their 21 crops, to tend to their stock, and to get on 22 with the business of farming; and I would remind 23 everyone in this chamber that we already face a 5152 1 tremendous burden by Workers' Compensation 2 premiums affecting agriculture to the extent 3 that many farmers now say they are unable to pay 4 hired help the way they have in the past. They 5 are not able to keep them on as permanent 6 employees. The hired help has to either work 7 under the table in a few cases or they are 8 working as contract labor and are relatively 9 unemployed. 10 So while we have to look at the 11 larger issue of what we're doing for this 12 industry in the state, I would ask each of you 13 to consider yourself in the same situation if 14 you were a farmer and realize that any minor 15 inconvenience, any expense, that can be lifted 16 off the shoulders of farmers is in the best 17 interest not only of those farmers but of the 18 entire state; and I would urge all of my 19 colleagues to give this bill an opportunity and 20 to please send a message that we do support 21 agriculture in the New York State Senate by 22 voting yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 5153 1 Senator Waldon. 2 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 3 much, Mr. President. 4 To explain my vote. 5 Traditionally, since arriving in Albany, both in 6 the Assembly and in the Senate, I have strongly 7 supported agriculture and agricultural measures 8 for a lot of reasons: 9 One, I just think we must be 10 supportive of the "bread basket" of the state 11 and perhaps the nation. Two, I learned that 12 there are many constituents in the districts 13 that I have represented who are dramatically 14 impacted by this industry, and I'm not just 15 talking about the normal food stuff, but we have 16 coach laws, we have school children, so I try to 17 be aware of and supportive of whenever 18 possible. 19 However, the greater question 20 here is what happens to someone if they are 21 injured by one of these vehicles which may stray 22 off onto a public thoroughfare or somehow the 23 operator is negligent; and it seems to me that 5154 1 it would be better to protect the person injured 2 and to not allow the owner, farmer, business 3 person to escape liability or at least to escape 4 the proper and appropriate liability by not 5 having minimal threshold level coverage on each 6 of the vehicles operating in this agricultural 7 industry. 8 And, therefore, for those 9 reasons, I must vote no. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 11 Read the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 15 Call the roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 18 Results. 19 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 20 the negative on Calendar Number 65, Senators 21 Abate, Dollinger, Jones, Kruger, Leichter, Levy, 22 Smith, Solomon, Waldon. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 5155 1 The bill is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Also, Senator 3 Montgomery. Ayes 47, nays 10. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 5 The bill is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 336, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 3668, an act 8 to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in 9 relation to improving the Agriculturals District 10 Program. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 13 Explanation, Senator Kuhl. 14 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, Mr. 15 President. Would Senator Paterson like the 16 short explanation or the long explanation? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 18 Senator Paterson? 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, I'm 20 always so enlightened when Senator Kuhl comes 21 down from ascension and is here with us on the 22 floor with the rest of us that I'd like to hear 23 the long explanation. I know it's not popular 5156 1 here, but I'm interested. 2 SENATOR KUHL: Senator Paterson, 3 this is a bill that essentially is a technical 4 corrections bill of a bill that we passed in 5 this house that eventually became law which was 6 called the Agricultural Farm Land Protection 7 Bill. It was adopted in 1992, with the addition 8 that there's the incorporation into this bill - 9 and I should mention, by the way, that this is a 10 departmental bill that has come from the 11 Department of Agriculture and Markets -- with 12 the addition that, included in this bill, is a 13 provision of another bill that we passed a 14 couple of months ago in this house that would 15 provide that an individual farmer in this case 16 who -- under the Ag Farm Land Protection Act of 17 1992, who is conducting the practice of farming 18 in one particular aspect, and where there has 19 been a question as to whether or not that was an 20 agriculturally sound practice, and the determin 21 ation has been made by the Commissioner of the 22 Department of Agriculture and Markets that, in 23 fact, it is an agriculturally sound practice, 5157 1 and where that individually farmer -- individual 2 farmer who is carrying on that agriculturally 3 accepted farm practice is challenged in the 4 court and is successful in defending that 5 challenge to what is, again, determined to be an 6 agriculturally accepted practice, that that 7 individual would be entire -- entitled to the 8 recovery of attorneys' fees that he incurred or 9 she incurred in defending that lawsuit. 10 Now, other than that substantial 11 change in the law, the rest of the provisions, 12 for the most part, are correcnical -- or I 13 should say technical corrections. 14 That was the short explanation. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 16 Senator Paterson. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, I'm sure 18 that will suffice, Mr. President, if Senator 19 Kuhl would yield for a couple of short 20 questions. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 22 Senator Kuhl, will you yield? 23 SENATOR KUHL: I'd be happy to. 5158 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Kuhl, 2 my concern with this bill -- and I think that 3 Senator Hoffmann was very eloquent and so were 4 you earlier in talking about the plight of 5 farmers and the value of the industry and how we 6 should not in any way mock it or cajole it in 7 our debate here, and I was persuaded actually to 8 vote for Calendar 65, but this bill, Calendar 9 336, in my opinion, sets up a standard that is 10 unfair on its face. 11 While the unsuccessful plaintiff 12 is liable for the fees accrued to the defendant, 13 you don't have in your bill an unsuccessful 14 defendant having to pay the legal fees of the 15 plaintiff. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: Is 17 there a question, Senator Paterson? 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Is that fair? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 20 Senator Kuhl. 21 SENATOR KUHL: Well, it's 22 obvious, Senator, that I proposed the bill in 23 its current form so I would have to think that 5159 1 it was fair, but I do think it's fair because 2 what you have here is two prior determinations 3 as to what is generally acceptable as to the 4 accepted farming practice. 5 You have what's out there being 6 done, and you have a challenge to the -- I 7 should say a question being made of the 8 Commissioner. The Commissioner has the result 9 -- the opportunity at his -- under the former 10 law, to ask of the opinions of several advisory 11 groups which one of them would be the College of 12 Ag and Life Sciences at Cornell which is a land 13 grant, I'm sure, institution subsidized by the 14 state of New York, and then he makes the 15 determination as to -- or she makes the 16 determination as to whether or not that's 17 generally acceptable. So what you have is you 18 have a determination that's made, and then what 19 you have is a challenge in face of that 20 determination as to what is acceptable. 21 Now, what we're saying here is 22 you have a general practice being carried out by 23 the farming community, a challenge made to that, 5160 1 a determination by a commissioner as to whether 2 that's right or wrong, and then what you have is 3 the potential misuse certainly of the court 4 system by somebody who wants to pounce upon, if 5 you will, an independent farmer who doesn't have 6 unlimited resources like some of these groups 7 that challenge the farming community, and what 8 we're simply doing is imposing a frivolous 9 lawsuit, if you will, concept here saying that, 10 "Look, if you're going to challenge this 11 decision which has been made based upon sound 12 recommendations, then you have to know if you 13 don't succeed in the courtroom, that you're 14 going to be liable for the costs that were 15 incurred by the person defending the suit." 16 This is not a novel concept, and 17 I think that this concept is already written 18 into some portions of our laws dealing with 19 frivolous lawsuits. I think there's -- in the 20 medical liability malpractice provisions and 21 concepts that we've adopted here, there is a 22 provision dealing with that. 23 So what we're doing is not 5161 1 establishing a new precedent, certainly. What 2 we're doing is trying to embark upon a process 3 that will allow our farmers, individually and 4 independently, to be able to continue their 5 occupation without the threat of multiple 6 lawsuits and certainly the cost of defending 7 them. 8 What we have seen, Senator, and 9 what we are seeing now in the course of carrying 10 on the occupation of agriculture in this state 11 is, we are seeing mounting challenges. This was 12 one of the reasons that we passed the law in 13 1992, and this was to define a line as to what 14 was acceptable and what wasn't and to define 15 criteria as to what was acceptable and what 16 wasn't, to essentially establish essentially a 17 pattern by which people can pattern their 18 behavior and their occupation. So what we're 19 saying now is "Okay. Once that's established 20 and it's determined and now you want to 21 challenge that determination then, in fact, if 22 you're wrong, you ought to bear the cost of 23 that" because on the outset, it doesn't appear 5162 1 from the requirements that lead to that decision 2 that it would be a wrongful decision. 3 Now, certainly if somebody raises 4 a question and says, "Now, this is not a 5 generally accepted farming practice is the 6 terminology" and the Commissioner says, "You're 7 absolutely right, it is not", then that practice 8 will stop certainly, and the farmer will be 9 liable for any of his actions at that point. 10 That's a liability on one side. 11 But on the other side, if, in 12 fact, you carry it to the next step and you take 13 it to a court and you fail, then that's the same 14 thing tantamount to bringing a frivolous lawsuit 15 which currently this state of New York says that 16 you will bear the expense of that. Now, we 17 don't use that terminology in this proposal, but 18 the concept is the same. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 20 Senator Paterson. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 22 President. 23 If Senator Kuhl will continue to 5163 1 yield, then I can master the negotiation of the 2 interrogatory sentence. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 4 Senator Kuhl. 5 SENATOR KUHL: I'd be happy to 6 yield. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Kuhl, 8 I want to discuss the actions of the Commission 9 er with you in a moment, but just to get back to 10 the question that I just asked you, many of the 11 plaintiffs in these cases, if I'm not correct, 12 are actually some of the same farmers or some of 13 the same rural residents as the individuals who 14 could be the object of the lawsuit and so, what 15 I'm saying is, don't you think there needs to be 16 equal protection regardless of who's initiating 17 the lawsuit? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 19 Senator Kuhl. 20 SENATOR KUHL: Well, I think 21 there is, Senator Paterson, and we were very, 22 very, very specific in the adoption of the law 23 back in 1992 to lay out these protections. I 5164 1 don't know whether you've had any real estate 2 closings or not lately, but you remember that 3 little statement that's required to be filed 4 with the deed, and it talks about whether or not 5 there are certain kinds of things that are 6 associated with this particular type of 7 property? Well, there's a requirement now that 8 we inform people that this is an agricultural 9 district that they're buying into. There's 10 notice that's required to be given prior to the 11 conclusion of any kind of a real estate 12 purchase. 13 What we have attempted to do is 14 to eliminate exactly what we have found is 15 happening, and that is people who move into a 16 rural area, all of a sudden they find out that 17 they don't like the dust that's in the air. 18 They don't like that smell that happens to be in 19 the air when there's this fertilizing process 20 going on which happens to be the spreading of 21 manure on land that may be 150 yards away from 22 them. They don't necessarily like the noise at 23 2:00 o'clock in the morning or 3:00 o'clock in 5165 1 the morning because they moved next to a 2 vineyard where there are grapes that are being 3 harvested and there are birds that are swooping 4 down on the grapes and eating the grapes, and so 5 they use these shotguns to scare the birds away. 6 Well, I can guarantee you that 7 when we dealt with this whole concept, we dealt 8 with, okay, what is a generally accepted farming 9 practice? Well, now, if you moved in next to me 10 and I had a vineyard and I didn't like 11 necessarily having you next to me, would it be 12 generally accepted that I started to scare these 13 birds away who don't fly after dark by shooting 14 this shotgun process off at 2:00 and 3:00 and 15 4:00 in the morning? Well, no, that's not 16 acceptable. 17 But my point to you is what we 18 tried to do in this whole bill that we adopted, 19 again back in 1992, was to build up a series of 20 protections for the people that were moving into 21 the communities so that they were well aware of 22 what they were going to be faced with. So when 23 you talk about rural residents being the ones 5166 1 who are challenging, say, what is a generally 2 accepted practice, by the time they get to that 3 point where they're an owner, they know it's 4 generally accepted and they have been forewarned 5 as to what's generally accepted. 6 So these people that embark upon 7 these lawsuits that we're finding, these are the 8 new neighbors who are coming out of the metro 9 politan areas who are looking for this pristine 10 farmland, that beautiful red barn, those black 11 and white cows on green grass with flowers 12 across the roads, okay? Now, all of a sudden 13 they find out that there's a particular odor 14 that they don't agree with or there is this 15 shaking of the land or these sounds that they 16 don't understand or this dust in the air. 17 What we tried to do in the law 18 was take that out. So we have given them 19 notice, and what we're saying now is if you want 20 to question that practice and you've gone and 21 you've gotten your decision from the 22 Commissioner of Agriculture, who says, No, this 23 has been going on by years and, yes, it's 5167 1 verified by the EPA and Ag and Markets. This is 2 standard process. This is what has to happen. 3 In fact, if you then decide that, No. That's 4 not, and I'm going to put this guy out of 5 business by taking him out to the court and then 6 once if I lose there, I'm going to take him on 7 to the Appellate Division and then on to the 8 Court of Appeals and I'll take him to the 9 Supreme Court, what we're saying is, Okay. You 10 can do that, but if you lose and you try to 11 bankrupt this farmer, you're going to pay the 12 costs because you're going to provide the fees 13 that he incurred in defending the suit if he is, 14 in fact, or she is successful. 15 That's what this concept is all 16 about. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 18 Senator Paterson. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 20 before continuing, I have to allow my colleagues 21 to know that, not since Sir Walter Scott's 22 Ivanhoe have I heard a more illustrative, 23 descriptive, poignant display of the fantasy of 5168 1 the urban dweller as to the nature of farming as 2 I have just heard from Senator Kuhl. That was 3 quite effective. 4 If he would continue to yield for 5 a question - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 7 Senator Kuhl. 8 SENATOR KUHL: I'd be happy to. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Kuhl, 10 I direct you to Section 308, Subsection 2, of 11 the Agriculture Law which relates to what 12 provides a nuisance and the health conditions 13 that are created from a nuisance and ask you how 14 the Commissioner of Agriculture, ruling on what 15 is a sound farm practice, can have any idea of 16 what could constitute a serious health hazard, 17 which is part of the reason that some people sue 18 others for providing a nuisance? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 20 Senator Kuhl. 21 SENATOR KUHL: That was -- excuse 22 me, Senator Paterson. That was -- you're 23 referring to Section 308? 5169 1 SENATOR PATERSON: 308-2. 2 SENATOR KUHL: Subdivision 2. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: It mentions 4 wrongful death, Senator. 5 SENATOR KUHL: What particular 6 line, do you remember, Senator Paterson? 7 SENATOR PATERSON: It says 8 basically that nothing should be construed to 9 prohibit a party from recovering for wrongful 10 death on -- on -- due to a farm -- due to a 11 nuisance. 12 SENATOR KUHL: You know where in 13 the proposed bill it is? I'm having a hard time 14 finding it, Senator. That's the only problem. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm sorry, 16 Senator. This is in the Agriculture Law, and 17 the reason I was citing it -- maybe I'll just 18 explain it. 19 The reason I was citing it is - 20 what I was saying is that the Commissioner - 21 the question I'm asking you is, how can the 22 Commissioner, who may be able to determine what 23 is a sound farming practice -- I think there 5170 1 have been a number of sound farming practices 2 that we later, due to medical information and 3 due to rulings from the state Department of 4 Health, we found out that they were injurious to 5 other parties. 6 So what I'm saying is how can we 7 leave that under the jurisdiction of the 8 Commissioner, or how does just knowing that 9 something is a sound farming practice prohibit a 10 party from recovering on a nuisance action? 11 SENATOR KUHL: I think the 12 concept is -- and I'm -- I don't have the 13 immediate recollection of all of what Section 14 308, Subdivision 2, in the Ag and Markets Law 15 says, but the concept that we have dealt with in 16 this whole proposal and adoption of the law that 17 goes back to 1992, Senator, was that there were 18 essentially migrations of urban populations that 19 were moving to the rural area, and this urbani 20 zation, if you will, of the rural area of this 21 state was causing some difficulty between the 22 neighbors who were the new neighbors, people who 23 were purchasing land, and what we thought was 5171 1 the best way to deal with this was to try to 2 define a essentially set standard. 3 Now, the initial proposal that I 4 had before not only this house but was initially 5 proposed in the Assembly, was to define 6 immediately what was a generally accepted 7 farming practice; everything. If you were a 8 chicken farmer, fine. If you were a grape 9 grower, fine. If you were a dairy farmer, fine. 10 If you grew cash crops, fine. This is what was 11 generally accepted. 12 At that time, the Department told 13 us -- told me, specifically, that that was such 14 detail, and that was such an exhaustive project 15 to do that, that they would prefer to move away 16 from that definition because it varied in 17 different parts of the state. There are all 18 kinds of different areas geographically, and all 19 of those took into consideration different 20 generally accepted farming practices. 21 So what it eventually came down 22 through -- down to, I should say, through 23 negotiation was a determination yet to be 5172 1 defined upon request, and what we did was we set 2 up a -- some advisory groups, like the College 3 of Agriculture and Life Science at Cornell who, 4 as I said, was a land grant college that we 5 support and which is one of the preeminent 6 agricultural schools in this country, if not the 7 world. We thought that, if anybody knew what 8 was generally accepted and the modern 9 technology, they certainly would, and that the 10 Commissioner would be dependent upon them for 11 their advisory opinion. 12 But the concept was, here is a 13 current, in-place occupation that's being 14 carried on, and so let's define what they're all 15 about and if there is a challenge. The idea had 16 nothing to do about anything else other than 17 what was acceptable dealing with that 18 occupation. 19 And so we have addressed solely 20 that issue, what is acceptable from an environ 21 mental standpoint, from a business standpoint, 22 from all the kinds of basis of criteria upon 23 which the Commissioner might use to define that 5173 1 term, "generally accepted farming practice". 2 Now, that's the concept. I don't 3 know as I can specifically answer your question 4 as it relates to that provision of the law 5 because I don't have that in front of me, number 6 one, and I don't have that memorized. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 8 Senator Paterson. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 10 President. 11 Again, through you, Mr. 12 President, to Senator Kuhl. I think that the 13 spirit of your legislation is quite acceptable. 14 What you're trying to do is to really put a stop 15 to spurious lawsuits and really claims that have 16 no merit from individuals who would not 17 understand that this is a standard farming 18 practice. What I'm contending is that it's the 19 method of the legislation that is most 20 objectionable, and there are two real levels to 21 that objection. 22 The first one would be that the 23 Commissioner of Agriculture and Markets is able 5174 1 to determine what is a sound farming practice, 2 but that of and in itself does not let us know 3 whether or not the claim that this practice is a 4 nuisance is or is not viable. That's something 5 that the court would actually decide; and I 6 think Senator Kuhl and I would both agree that 7 the court would actually decide the merit of the 8 claim, but now we're talking about after the 9 court action and we assume that the plaintiff is 10 defeated. We're now saying that the ruling of 11 the Commissioner would now entitle the defendant 12 to receive court costs from the plaintiff; and 13 what I'm saying, Senator Kuhl, is that there 14 must be another way to accomplish the goal of - 15 of stopping spurious lawsuits rather than to 16 vest that in the Commissioner of Agriculture and 17 Markets. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 19 Senator Kuhl. 20 SENATOR KUHL: I didn't hear the 21 question, but let me just pose this to Senator 22 Paterson, and I don't know if he intended to ask 23 me a question, but you raise a point, I think, 5175 1 about the -- splitting the actual challenge to 2 this issue, and I might remind you, Senator 3 Paterson, that certainly, if an individual 4 decides that the Commissioner's judgment is not 5 a sound one, that rather than take the 6 individual farmer to court and challenge him 7 with a nuisance lawsuit, certainly this 8 individual has the rights under Article 78 of 9 the Civil Practice Laws and Rules to challenge 10 the Commissioner's decision as to being 11 arbitrary and capricious. 12 That would not bring into play 13 the defendant farmer. He would not have to be 14 taken into court to challenge -- to be cited 15 with a nuisance. So what I'm saying to you is, 16 if you are saying there ought to be another way, 17 certainly there is because the individual who is 18 objecting to this generally accepted farming 19 practice could say, Yeah. I think the 20 Commissioner is wrong. I challenge this 21 decision, take it into court and certainly that 22 court could overrule it. If that were the case, 23 and it very well could be, then certainly now we 5176 1 have a decision that it's not a generally 2 accepted farming practice and the individual 3 farmer would have to comply with that decision. 4 But what we're saying is that it 5 is unfair to bring the individual farmer in to 6 challenge that decision, that there is another 7 alternative, and an individual can take that 8 course if they see fit. 9 I would just point that out as 10 you say there must be another way, and I'm just 11 giving it to you, there is another way for the 12 individual to challenge that decision, so that 13 it doesn't come down solely to the Commissioner 14 to make that determination. It can be 15 challenged through the court system, and you 16 know the Civil Practice Law and Rules probably 17 much better than I do, but that is a way that 18 can be done without the added expense to this 19 farmer to defend this decision that was made by 20 the Commissioner of Agriculture and Markets. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 22 Senator Paterson. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 5177 1 I want to thank Senator Kuhl for his answers 2 which were most forthright. 3 On the bill. I want to just 4 compare this bill to the one that we previously 5 passed and maybe the point that I'm trying to 6 make will be a little clearer. 7 In the previous bill, we really 8 are addressing the issue of farm-plated vehicles 9 and insurance liability, and so if we wanted to 10 do as Senator Hoffmann said and understand the 11 nature of the industry and understand that 12 sometimes even the slightest inconvenience to 13 the farmer can create a tremendous hardship to 14 the industry, I think if that's what we want to 15 do, we can do it. Senator Kuhl's bill passed. 16 I voted for it. There was some dissent and I 17 think very merited dissent on that particular 18 bill. 19 But this particular bill relates 20 to something for which the value, I think, is a 21 little higher than insurance liability. Here we 22 are talking about our civil justice system. The 23 reason that we set up our civil justice system, 5178 1 which is one that's really carved out of the 2 criminal justice system; in other words, there 3 are implied attacks on society and that's why we 4 have criminal justice and in civil justice, they 5 are really the attacks on the individual. 6 We have encouraged people who 7 feel that they are victimized in that way to 8 bring their beef, so to speak, to court, to 9 bring their arguments to an arbiter, and what we 10 have in this situation is incurring a burden on 11 the plaintiff that, if you don't win on the 12 merits of your argument and the Commissioner of 13 Agriculture and Markets says, "This is a sound 14 farming practice", then you are going to have to 15 pay the court costs, not only that you incurred, 16 but also that the party you sued or the 17 defendant incurred. 18 In my opinion, it is putting a 19 tremendous hardship on a person that wants to 20 initiate a court action, and it is discouraging 21 individuals from bringing cases to court. 22 Now, I think in our opening 23 prayer today, we got some very good advice by 5179 1 Rabbi Buttman who gave us a little Talmudic law, 2 and he said, "Please pray for government, 3 because without government, people would eat 4 each other alive", and I think that's why we 5 have a court system because, when people feel 6 they don't have any court of challenge, they 7 start to take these disputes out personally. 8 They don't feel that there's a remedy. 9 I think the value of that remedy 10 is higher than that of disputes between farmers, 11 even if it does appear to be a little unfair to 12 the farmer that the actual nuisance may be a 13 standard farming practice. I would rather that 14 that issue be settled in court and I would 15 rather that no one feel an encumbrance upon them 16 limiting them from bringing the action to 17 court. 18 That's why I can't support the 19 bill, because I feel that the rendering of a 20 decision by the Commissioner of Agricultre and 21 Markets can only define the farming practice, 22 but whether or not the farming practice is being 23 handled correctly is something that evidence, 5180 1 facts and a presiding judge or jury, I think, 2 should decide. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 4 Read the last section. 5 Oh, excuse me, Senator Dollinger. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 7 President, just briefly on the bill. 8 I am mindful both of Senator 9 Hoffmann's comments about the importance of the 10 farming industry, Senator Kuhl's comments about 11 the significance of the farming industry in this 12 state, Senator Johnson's comments about the 13 farming industry in this state. It is clearly 14 one that has an enormous effect on our economy. 15 However, while it deserves a very 16 high place in our attempt to accommodate farm 17 ers, it seems to me the one thing we shouldn't 18 do is create a privileged place in our civil 19 justice system for farmers, because what this 20 will do is that this says that in a nuisance 21 action brought against the farmer, which is the 22 equivalent of a real estate-related product 23 liability action brought against the farmer, 5181 1 we're now going to create a rule that says if 2 you bring such an action, and you lose, and even 3 if it had some merit to it, but nonetheless, a 4 court finds that the practice was a reasonable 5 business practice or reasonable farming practice 6 by a farmer, you now have to pay not only your 7 own legal fees to have brought the action, but 8 the legal fees of the defendant farmer. In 9 essence, when the defendant wins, he wins 10 everything. When the plaintiff wins, he gets 11 the relief that he was entitled to. 12 So it seems to me while farming 13 should get a high privilege or a high status in 14 our economic system and in our civil justice 15 system, we should not create a privilege for 16 farmers that we deny to everyone else, and that 17 is, when they win they get everything; when the 18 plaintiff wins next door, he only gets what he 19 or she is entitled to. 20 I think that kind of privilege in 21 the system isn't necessary in this case. It 22 raises issues about the fairness of the entire 23 system. There's no suggestion here that other 5182 1 product manufacturers would get the same 2 treatment. There's no suggestion that other 3 defendants would get the same treatment. It 4 seems to me, while we should recognize the 5 farmer's contribution, here we are creating a 6 very, very highly privileged niche for farmers 7 and one that, at least from my perspective, I 8 think is unnecessary. 9 I will be voting no, Mr. 10 President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 12 Read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 9. This 14 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 16 Please call the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 19 Results. 20 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 21 the negative on Calendar Number 336, Senator 22 Abate, Connor, Gold, Gonzalez, Leichter, 23 Montgomery, Onorato, Paterson, Stavisky and 5183 1 Waldon. Ayes 49, nays 10. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 3 The bill is passed. 4 Senator Nanula. 5 SENATOR NANULA: Mr. President, I 6 would like to request unanimous consent to be 7 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 65. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 9 Without objection. 10 SENATOR NANULA: Thank you. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 12 President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 14 Senator Dollinger. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just a point 16 of order, Mr. President. Was I recorded in the 17 negative on the last bill? I had my hand up and 18 I wanted to make sure I was. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: 20 You were not, but you will be. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 22 Mr. President, just to clarify. 23 Thank you. 5184 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Secretary will continue to call the 3 controversial calendar. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 356, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print Number 6 3628, an act to amend the Education Law, in 7 relation to the Tax Deferred Annuity Program 8 under the Board of Education retirement system. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 Secretary will read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll.) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 377, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 3941-A, an 21 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to 22 directing the Commissioner of Education to 23 include rules concerning the maximum speeds of 5185 1 school vehicles. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explanation, 3 Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Levy, an explanation has been asked for by 6 Senator Dollinger. 7 SENATOR LEVY: Yes. Senator 8 Dollinger, when we last discussed 65 and, as we 9 were debating the last bill, the agreed upon 65 10 bill was put on everybody's desk, and the Rules 11 Committee is going to report that bill in just a 12 few moments. 13 This bill is really a companion 14 to, quote, "65". When we had our discussion - 15 and when we get into 65, I will talk about some 16 of the -- some of the things that we have done 17 since that debate that relate to deterrence, 18 that relate to enforcement, and that relate to 19 saving lives once we go to 65 on 1135 miles of 20 Thruway and other state and interstate highways 21 in New York. 22 One of the things that we talked 23 about was protecting children who are riding on 5186 1 school buses. So after that debate, I met with 2 the Commissioner of Education, and that 3 discussion related to the Commissioner of 4 Education mandating or requiring that no school 5 bus travel on those 1135 miles in excess of 55 6 miles an hour. 7 Commissioner Sobol said that he 8 was supportive and would, in fact, take that 9 action and support this bill, but he said, given 10 a court decision by the Court of Appeals five or 11 six years ago that questioned his ability 12 through rules and regulations without legisla 13 tion to take an act like this, he asked 14 Assemblyman Bragman and myself to mandate that 15 he take the action that related to establishing 16 the maximum speed limit for school buses at 55 17 miles an hour. 18 Now, I am told this bill has been 19 introduced by Mike Bragman; it does not have a 20 number yet over in the Assembly, but it has been 21 introduced. The bill was drafted as a result of 22 conversations between -- between Mike and myself 23 and our staffs, and this bill has been reviewed 5187 1 by the Commissioner, counsel to the department, 2 and they are supportive of this piece of legis 3 lation, and it does exactly what I said it did. 4 It requires the Commissioner to set a maximum of 5 55 miles an hour for any school bus traveling 6 with children on a bus. 7 It likewise preserves the powers 8 of local school districts to be more restrictive 9 than 55 if they make a determination for their 10 school district that they don't want their buses 11 traveling, not at 65, but they don't want them 12 traveling at 55, and that's what this bill 13 does. 14 As we get into the other debate, 15 we'll talk about conversations -- conversations 16 that I had with the Superintendent of the State 17 Police and with the Commissioner of Motor 18 Vehicles in regard to what they are going to do, 19 not only with school buses, but what they're 20 going to do as it relates to trucks that weigh 21 more than 18,000 pounds and have cargos such as 22 gasoline, propane, liquefied natural gas, 23 explosives and radioactive materials, but we'll 5188 1 save that discussion for when we get into 65 and 2 we'll lay out exactly what the Superintendent is 3 going to do, what the Commissioner of Motor 4 Vehicles is going to do in regard to those 5 areas, as well as you and I and everybody else 6 operating a vehicle at 65 miles an hour on those 7 roads. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 9 President, will Senator Levy yield to one 10 question? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Levy, do you yield to Senator Dollinger? 13 SENATOR LEVY: Sure. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 Senator yields. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I 17 was one of those who actually came into the last 18 debate about the 65 mile-an-hour speed limit and 19 changed my mind because of your comments about 20 the ancillary aspects of raising the speed 21 limit, one of which was school buses. I thought 22 your point was well taken, and I approached this 23 ongoing debate about the Conference Committee 5189 1 report in that same light to look at this. 2 My question is this: Was -- this 3 statute makes reference to school vehicles. The 4 same types of problems with large numbers of 5 children on larger vehicles could be present, 6 for example, buses for religious institutions, 7 churches that bus students. For example, the Al 8 Siegel Center which may have vans that have half 9 a dozen handicapped children in them. 10 My question is was any 11 consideration given to the same, I think, proper 12 consideration about lowering the speed limit for 13 vehicles carrying large numbers of children; was 14 consideration given to making it based on the 15 number of children in the vehicle rather than 16 simply the designation of a school vehicle 17 transporting pupils as the way the statute 18 currently reads? 19 SENATOR LEVY: Senator, this bill 20 deals only with the Commissioner of Education 21 and directs the Commissioner to act as it re 22 lates to school vehicles and pupils that are go 23 ing to and from school or for other educational 5190 1 purposes. 2 I think your point is well taken 3 as it relates to taking a look at children being 4 transported other than to and from school or for 5 other educational purposes, and we'll take a 6 look at that, and in indicating that we worked 7 on this bill with Senator Bragman, we also 8 worked on a bill with Senator Oppenheimer who is 9 a sponsor of the bill. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Dollinger. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 13 President, I'm going to vote in favor of this 14 bill. I would just urge the Transportation 15 Committee of this house and the other house to 16 look at that other issue of -- and I think of 17 religious institutions and institutions that are 18 transporting a large number of people may not be 19 educational institutions not under the purview 20 of Commissioner of Education, but who have the 21 same risks that are created that this bill 22 addresses with respect to school children. 23 I'm going to vote in favor of 5191 1 this. It's the right thing to do. I think it 2 should be expanded even further. 3 SENATOR LEVY: I can tell you, 4 Senator Dollinger, that -- and I said we are 5 going to hold this to 65, and I'm going to read 6 into the record part of the letter from the 7 Superintendent -- letters from the Commissioner 8 of Motor Vehicles and the Superintendent of the 9 State Police, but I can tell you that the 10 Superintendent of State Police, on those 1135 11 miles, is going to target school buses 12 transporting children. They are going to be 13 targeted as it relates to enforcement. He has 14 made that commitment, and we will make that part 15 of the 65 record. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 Secretary will read the last section. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll.) 5192 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 Senator Marcellino, that 5 concludes the controversial calendar. We have 6 several housekeeping events at the desk, if you 7 want to do that. 8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, Mr. 9 President. Do the housekeeping first. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 11 Substitution. The Secretary will read. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator 13 DeFrancisco moves to discharge from the 14 Committee on Local Government, Assembly Bill 15 Number 1983-B and substitute it for the 16 identical Calendar Number 213. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 substitution is ordered. 19 The Chair recognizes Senator 20 Present. 21 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 22 on behalf of Senator Seward, I wish to call up 23 Calendar 498, Assembly Print 1540. 5193 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Secretary will read. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 498, by member of the Assembly Luster, Senate 5 Bill Number 1540, an act to amend the General 6 Business Law. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Present. 9 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 10 I now move to reconsider the vote by which the 11 the Assembly bill was substituted for Senator 12 Seward's bill, Senate Print 1108, on April 26th. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Secretary will call the roll on 15 reconsideration. 16 (The Secretary called the roll on 17 reconsideration.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Present. 21 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 22 I now move that Assembly Bill Number 1540 be 23 recommitted to the Committee on Consumer 5194 1 Protection and that Senator Seward's Senate bill 2 be restored to the order of Second Report. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Assembly bill is recommitted. The Senate bill 5 is restored to the Second calendar -- Second 6 Reading Calendar. 7 The Chair recognizes Senator 8 Marcellino. 9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 10 President, may we return to reports of standing 11 committees? I believe there's a report up from 12 the Rules Committee at the desk. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 14 a report of the Rules Committee at the desk. We 15 will return to reports of standing committees. 16 The Secretary will read. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno, 18 from the Committee on Rules, hands up the 19 following bills directly for third reading: 20 Senate Print 4475, Budget Bill, an act making an 21 appropriation for the support of government. 22 Senate Print 4476, Budget Bill, 23 an act making appropriation for the support of 5195 1 government. 2 Senate Print 4477, Budget Bill, 3 an act to provide for payments to municipalities 4 and to providers of medical services. 5 Senate Print 4478, Budget Bill, 6 an act to provide for payments to vendors under 7 the Women, Infants and Children's Program. 8 Senate Print 4250, by Senator 9 Johnson and others, an act to amend the Vehicle 10 and Traffic Law, in relation to maximum speed 11 limits and providing for the repeal of such 12 provisions. 13 All bills directly for third 14 reading. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All bills 16 are ordered directly to third reading. 17 The Chair recognizes Senator 18 Marcellino. 19 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 20 President, I move we adopt the report of the 21 Rules Committee. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 motion is to accept the report of the Rules 5196 1 Committee. All those in favor signify by saying 2 aye. 3 (Response of "Aye".) 4 Opposed, nay. 5 (There was no response.) 6 The report is accepted. 7 Senator Marcellino. 8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: May we take 9 up Calendar Number 612, Senate 4250? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Marcellino, we have a substitution at the desk. 12 Can we take that first? 13 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, sir. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I'll ask 15 the Secretary to read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson 17 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 18 Assembly Bill Number 7384 and substitute it for 19 the identical bill, Calendar Number 612. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 substitution is ordered. 22 SENATOR MARCELLINO: May we now 23 take up Calendar Number 612, Senate 4250. 5197 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Secretary will read Calendar Number 612. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 612, by the Rules Committee, Assembly Bill 5 Number 7384, an act to amend the Vehicle and 6 Traffic Law, in relation to maximum speed limits 7 and providing for the repeal of such provision. 8 Section 3. This act shall take 9 effect on the 1st day - 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President 11 -- Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Leichter, why do you rise? 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: I heard them 15 call the last section. I was going to explain 16 my vote. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: No, you 18 did not hear the last section read yet, Senator 19 Leichter. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K., in that 21 event - 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: But 23 Calendar Number 612 is in front of the chamber. 5198 1 The Secretary will now read the 2 last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 4 act shall take effect on the 1st day of August. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll.) 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 9 recognizes Senator Leichter to explain his vote. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. 12 Mr. President, I'm delighted to 13 see that this first product of the Conference 14 Committee is before us, and I think it certainly 15 speaks well to the new procedures that have been 16 established by the Senate and the Assembly, and 17 I hope that we will see many other instances 18 where differences between the two houses are 19 resolved in this fashion. 20 Having said this -- and I appre 21 ciate the work that the members of the Confer 22 ence Committee did -- my view has been that to 23 increase the speed limit, I think, is going to 5199 1 lead to more accidents, will lead to more deaths 2 and injuries and, if we increase it to 65 miles, 3 then people in this state are going to be 4 driving 75 miles. 5 So let's -- as fine a product as 6 this is in terms of the procedures of the 7 Legislature, substantively I think it's flawed 8 and I will vote against it. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Leichter in the negative. 11 Senator Abate to explain her 12 vote. 13 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. I, too, 14 would like to compliment my colleagues. 15 Although I cannot support this 16 bill, I certainly support the process, and the 17 reason I cannot support the bill is for many of 18 the issues that Senator Tully raised the last 19 time. 20 The argument in favor of 21 increasing the speed limit is, well, we're doing 22 it anyway; people are already driving 65 miles 23 an hour, and it's for the convenience of 5200 1 motorists. 2 My problem is, what is in this 3 current legislation that will prevent all of us 4 to honor 65 miles an hour and not drive at 70, 5 75 and 80? And these highways were designed for 6 speed limits not to exceed 70 miles an hour and 7 because this legislation does not have increased 8 law enforcement efforts, it does not have 9 increased penalties, there's no provision for 10 large capacity trucks in terms of limiting their 11 speed travel, I believe, although there's an 12 argument for convenience, the argument against 13 it is much more powerful, and that's about 14 saving lives and decreasing fatalities and 15 without these additional law enforcement 16 provisions, I cannot support this legislation. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Abate in the negative. 19 The Chair recognizes Senator Levy 20 to explain his vote. 21 SENATOR LEVY: Yes, Mr. 22 President. Let me just make a -- very, very 23 briefly make part of this record because we are 5201 1 taking a very, very important step as it regards 2 to the actions that are going to be taken by law 3 enforcement and by the Commissioner of Motor 4 Vehicles. I'm only going to -- I'm only going 5 to read part of these communications. 6 A letter from the Superintendent 7 of the State Police says: 8 "I concur that special enforce 9 ment efforts would be appropriate with regard to 10 commercial vehicles in excess of 18,000 pounds 11 and which are engaged in the transport of 12 flammable or combustible substances, explosives 13 or radioactive materials. In addition, I 14 believe buses engaged in the business of pupil 15 transportation are worthy of special attention. 16 "I have been in the process of 17 implementing enhanced enforcement efforts with 18 regard to commercial vehicles in general. You 19 can be assured that, upon implementation of a 20 65-mile speed limit, special attention will be 21 directed towards enforcement of the new limit in 22 reference to the particular vehicles described 23 above." Signed by James W. McMahon, 5202 1 Superintendent of New York State Police. 2 And on the question of trying to 3 deter not only those vehicles, but you and I and 4 everyone else who is going to travel those 1135 5 miles, the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles wrote 6 on March 15th, "I share your concerns and will 7 have this agency work with the Governor's Traf 8 fic Safety Committee to review this important 9 matter and report their recommendations for 10 action to me." That is on the issue of points. 11 Let me say and just echo the 12 comments that have been made here, an outstand 13 ing job done by Senator Johnson, Senator Farley, 14 Senator Kuhl, Senator Oppenheimer and the 15 members of the Conference Committee. We've done 16 the most that we can do. The future course of 17 the impact of 65 on lives, injuries and acci 18 dents is up to others, the Commissioner of 19 Education, the Superintendent of State Police, 20 and the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles, 21 including the motor vehicle operators who are 22 going to be driving on those 1135 miles of 23 highway in this state where the speed limit is 5203 1 65. 2 I vote aye. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Levy in the affirmative. 5 Senator Farley to explain his 6 vote. 7 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. 9 Having been a sponsor of the 65 10 mile-an-hour speed limit for a number of years 11 and having worked with Senator Johnson on this, 12 putting our bills together, working with the 13 Assembly and with the Conference Committee, it 14 was able to bring this to fruition, and with the 15 Governor that supported it, our Majority Leader, 16 it's an example of this Legislature doing what 17 the people of the state of New York want. 18 There's overwhelming support for 19 having a reasonable speed limit. Will people 20 drive 80 miles an hour? I certainly hope not, 21 and I think they will be arrested if they do. I 22 think that this is a reasonable speed limit on 23 rural interstates. The Conference Committee 5204 1 worked well. We put together a piece of legis 2 lation which is reasonable, which affects the 3 parts of the state -- the upstate parts of the 4 state where rural interstates, and so forth, 5 exist and where people are not only now driving 6 over 55 miles an hour, but they will be able to 7 do it legally, and I think safely. 8 Again, there have been studies 9 that show that where states have raised the 10 speed limit on rural interstates, that the death 11 rate has actually gone down. Why? Because they 12 think that the people do not drive on the back 13 roads and the roads that are more dangerous and 14 then drive on the interstates which are safer at 15 65 than the back roads are at 55. I don't know 16 the rationale, but the LAVE study has showed 17 that. 18 I think this is something that 19 the people of the state of New York has wanted. 20 I commend Senator Johnson and my colleagues that 21 served on the Conference Committee and have 22 worked on this legislation for so long. 23 It's a bill that will be signed. 5205 1 It will be the law of New York State, and I 2 think it's been a long time in coming. 3 I vote aye. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Farley in the affirmative. 6 The Chair recognizes Senator 7 Mendez. 8 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President, I 9 also do want to congratulate the Conference 10 Committee for an excellent job in reconciling 11 the differences between the Senate and the 12 Assembly bill. 13 I do know that states in the 14 nation do have 65 miles per hour limits. Con 15 cerning the number of fatalities, Mr. President, 16 the fact remains that those -- there are two 17 studies in that area, and one claims that deaths 18 have been reduced and the other one concluded 19 the opposite, in reviewing the data. So I 20 really believe that, although most New Yorkers 21 are traveling, at least in the Thruway, at 64.9 22 miles per hour, I really believe that in 23 increasing the speed to 65 miles per hour could 5206 1 end up in greater number of accidents and 2 deaths. 3 Therefore, I'll be consistent 4 once more and vote against this bill. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Mendez in the negative. 7 The Chair recognizes Senator 8 Gold. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, thank you. 10 As so many people have said, the 11 Conference Committee did fine work, but you can 12 only deal with what you have, and basically they 13 reconciled differences but they didn't reconcile 14 the issue. 15 Senator Farley, who I greatly 16 respect, says you give the people what they 17 want. I always thought that what the people 18 wanted, Senator Farley, was for us to use our 19 heads and think rationally about things and, 20 well, Senator Levy says we pass the law and then 21 it's it up to others. They go out and kill 22 themselves, we didn't do anything wrong; we only 23 raised the speed limit, and I just think this is 5207 1 putting our heads in the sand. It really is. 2 People say, Well, I think this 3 and I think that, but the bottom line is that 4 before we passed the 55-mile-an-hour speed limit 5 in New York State, 3100 people on the average 6 were dying on our highways. Since we passed it, 7 that has fallen in New York State down to 2300. 8 That's a big number. That really is an awfully 9 big number. 10 I'm also told that in the states 11 that have increased the speed limit, Senator 12 Farley, you are wrong, that in 1992, the death 13 tolls in those states were 17 percent higher. 14 Now, that's -- those are really just big 15 numbers. 16 I remember, and I'm sure 17 everybody here remembers here what happened on 18 the roads before it went to 55. Nobody drove 19 65. When you were doing 65 and the guy passed 20 you at 80, it didn't seem so much, and then some 21 guy passed him at 90, and we had a disaster out 22 there and it was a disaster out there for the 23 police. You would not want to be the State 5208 1 Trooper who has to bring somebody to the side of 2 the road who's doing 90, 95 miles an hour, and I 3 really do believe that, under the existing law 4 where we have it at 55 and everybody knows but 5 you're not allowed to say it out loud, that the 6 cops don't stop if you you're doing under 63 or 7 64, well, then it's 63, 64, but at 65 it becomes 8 75 and 80, and that's exactly what happens, and 9 I think that the experience that we've had has 10 shown that we have actually been able to save 11 lives, and I see no reason to go back on that. 12 I vote no. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Gold in the negative. 15 The Chair recognizes Senator 16 Stavisky to explain his vote. 17 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 18 we certainly should praise the participants in 19 the conference effort, but that does not 20 necessarily mean that we should agree with the 21 final work product. 22 I think this is a better bill 23 than it would have been without the conference, 5209 1 but I believe that we still have some hard 2 decisions to make. 3 There probably isn't anyone in 4 this room who has not held a breath or said a 5 prayer as a tandem trailer has passed at an 6 excessive speed, with the hope that that tandem 7 trailer will pass without swerving onto our 8 lane. We have all seen the results and heard 9 the results if we haven't witnessed them 10 ourselves, of the carnage that has occurred when 11 one of those tandem trailers has turned over, 12 often because of excessive speed and the 13 curvature of the road or the exhaustion that the 14 driver experiences. 15 What about a trucker who has a 16 schedule to make -- and that's not a mini-car; 17 that's a tandem trailer -- that individual has a 18 schedule to meet and is told, "You get that 19 delivery to this destination by this time, and 20 we don't want to hear anything else"? 21 What about those that will 22 continue to drive past the time when they should 23 pull over on the side of the road to rest? We 5210 1 cannot have a piece of paper, no matter if it is 2 signed by respected officials of state 3 government, that guarantees us that that trucker 4 will not continue to remain behind the wheel 5 long after it is no longer safe. 6 We've seen the situation too many 7 times, and when individuals who are constituents 8 of ours or members of a family of constituents 9 of ours or, God forbid, members of our own 10 families who may be injured or worse because of 11 the passage of this legislation, I do not think 12 we would be proud of this moment. 13 The insurance companies are not 14 anxious to shell out unnecessarily high settle 15 ments. The Insurance Institute for Highway 16 Safety is opposed to this legislation, and if 17 the delivery has to occur at a slightly later 18 hour, do not endanger our constituents. There 19 are too many shipments of flammable materials. 20 We can no longer be assured that toxic wastes 21 will not be passing through the highways where 22 this extra speed limit is permitted. 23 Under these circumstances, I 5211 1 don't think we should pass this. I think we 2 should have further restrictions on the types of 3 vehicles that are permitted to travel at this 4 speed and hope that the motorists are sensible 5 enough even if the vehicle is not a large one, 6 to pull over to the side of the road when there 7 is the tendency to be over-fatigued. 8 Under these circumstances, I wish 9 to be recorded in the negative. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Stavisky in the negative. 12 Senator Solomon to explain his 13 vote. 14 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you, Mr. 15 President. 16 As I debated this bill earlier 17 when it came up in the Senate before it went to 18 Conference Committee, I believe we're taking a 19 dangerous step, as a number of speakers before 20 me in explaining their vote had stated. 21 We are taking a step where, in 22 fact, increasing the speed limit has only 23 evidenced one thing in other states where it's 5212 1 been done before, an increase in the number of 2 deaths on our highways, and I just question 3 whether or not that it's worth it to allow 4 people to arrive at a destination a few minutes 5 early because that's all it translates into is a 6 few minutes earlier, where we're going to have 7 some people lose their lives. 8 I dare say you can see this, 9 trucks on the Thruway that now generally many of 10 them do over 70 miles an hour, they'll be doing 11 80 miles an hour, and I should remind you that 12 most fatalities occur in accidents between 13 trucks and passenger automobiles, and many of 14 these roads that have been designated are 15 heavily travelled roads by truck traffic. 16 So I'm going to vote against this 17 bill because I don't believe it's worth it, 18 worth that one life, that first life that's 19 going to be lost because of an increase in the 20 speed limit so that numerous other people can 21 arrrive at a destination earlier. 22 Thank you. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5213 1 Solomon in the negative. 2 Senator LaValle to explain his 3 vote. Senator LaValle waives. 4 Senator Oppenheimer to explain 5 her vote. 6 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I'll be 7 voting affirmatively on this. 8 A couple of points I wanted to 9 make. One is that -- one of the reasons we feel 10 that the fatalities are down is not just that 11 the speed limit has been down but that there 12 have been many innovations made in the cars that 13 we are driving. For instance, years ago, we did 14 not have mandatory seat belts. We did not have 15 air bags. We did not have anti-locking brakes. 16 We feel these are contributing to a safer nation 17 of motorists. 18 In looking at the roads that were 19 subsequently added or detracted, depending - 20 subtracted, depending on which bill you're 21 looking at, there were many factors that went 22 into the determination of these particular roads 23 that are enumerated, and we looked closely at 5214 1 the number of accidents, the number of accidents 2 that had fatalities, the volume on each of these 3 roads, the density of the population centers 4 where these roads traveled by, and it was very 5 carefully looked at, and these roads were not 6 determined lightly and great discussions took 7 place over certain roads that many people on the 8 committee wanted but were felt not appropriate 9 because of the stricter standards that we had 10 put down. 11 The fact of the matter is that 12 everybody is going these speeds now on these 13 highways. I know if you try and sit at 55, you 14 can't even stay in the slowest lane because 15 people are not traveling at 55 and they're not 16 traveling at 65; they're traveling even faster 17 than that, and anticipating now that people 18 would say -- motorists would say, "Well, at 65, 19 of course, I can probably go nine miles over 20 that speed limit before I'll get nailed." Well, 21 we've taken that into account too, and what 22 we're going to be doing is we're going to be 23 having stricter enforcement of the law when this 5215 1 turns to 65 so that we will see that those who 2 are exceeding the limit will be caught and we're 3 also going to increase the penalties, and so we 4 feel this will be a deterrent to people who 5 think, "Oh, now, that's an opportunity for me to 6 go another ten miles faster or nine miles faster 7 than the limit." 8 I think a lot of thought has gone 9 into this and a lot of accommodation, and I feel 10 it's realistic and hopefully we will see no 11 increase. We are certainly going to monitor 12 this. We will hopefully see no increase in the 13 number of fatalities, but I can assure you, if 14 we do see an increase, it will be caught quickly 15 and it will be -- after all, none of our laws 16 are written in stone. 17 So I feel this is a joint effort 18 that has been successful after a good amount of 19 give and take, and I'm pleased with the result. 20 I vote yes. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Oppenheimer in the affirmative. 23 Senator Dollinger to explain his 5216 1 vote. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 3 President, I extend my congratulations to 4 members of the Conference Committee as well. I 5 would only have one suggestion the next time a 6 Conference Committee convenes. It seems, even 7 at this stage, we're still debating about which 8 one of the studies is accurate, whether the 9 fatalities went up or they went down. My 10 recommendation of those in the Conference 11 Committee would be, get both of the people who 12 conducted those studies in here; let's ask them 13 questions and find out why those two studies 14 could come to different conclusions so we can 15 make an independent judgment as to which of 16 those two studies is accurate and fair. 17 The other concerns I have, 18 Senator Levy has taken care of one with the 19 school bus initiative. I was also impressed 20 during the last time this went around before we 21 sent it off to Conference Committee about the 22 importance of enforcement. Senator Levy, I 23 think, said without contradiction that these 5217 1 highways are built to accommodate 70 miles an 2 hour and I, for one, do not want to see anybody 3 zipping by ten miles faster than 65, because it 4 was my understanding that we would say to those 5 people who drive faster than 70, we would not 6 only hit them with additional points, but we 7 would look at the possibility of additional 8 fines, and my hope is that we'll put one of 9 those Pennsylvania signs on the other side of 10 the border that says, "You come into New York 11 State and exceed our 65 mile-an-hour speed limit 12 by more than five miles, it will cost you 13 $250". That may get the kind of results that 14 we're after because I think, as everybody points 15 out -- as everybody points out, if you go faster 16 than 70 miles an hour on these highways, you're 17 going at an unsafe speed, and my view is that 18 we've got to make sure that nobody is cheating 19 over the 65 mile-an-hour speed limit. 20 My other concern, even though I'm 21 going to vote in favor of this bill, is what 22 this will do to travel on other highways. My 23 sense is that by raising the speed limit to 65, 5218 1 we may find that on our rural highways, which 2 are only built for 55, we may find everybody 3 inching up to 65 because that's now the accepted 4 norm on our divided highways and on our 5 interstates. 6 Nonetheless, despite those 7 concerns, I agree with Senator Oppenheimer. I 8 don't believe the bill is written in stone. I 9 think we ought to keep a very close eye on it. 10 I know it has a sunset. I hope the Department 11 of Transportation will do its own studies. 12 There may be some risk in this. My sense is, 13 and I agree with Senator Farley, I think 14 everybody has been going 65 for years, but let's 15 make sure they don't go any faster. Let's put 16 the enforcement system in to restrict people 17 from going even five miles faster than the 65 18 mile-an-hour speed limit. 19 I'll be voting in favor, Mr. 20 President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Dollinger in the affirmative. 23 Senator Johnson to explain his 5219 1 vote. 2 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 3 I'd like to begin by congratulating all the 4 members of the Conference Committee, my 5 colleagues, yourself, Senator Kuhl, Senator 6 Farley, Senator Oppenheimer and, of course, even 7 the Assembly, Mr. Bragman, Gantt, Mr. Destito 8 and Glick for sitting through three sessions and 9 so -- working this bill over pretty well and 10 coming to a consensus. 11 You know, I never -- I'm not 12 really prepared to debate the bill again since 13 we passed our first bill by 46 to 8 and in the 14 Assembly by 120 to 22, so I'm really happy to 15 know that the representatives in this state are 16 expressing the will of the people who sent them 17 here, and I think it's very appropriate. 18 Also, that historically accidents 19 have gone down year by year, deaths per hundred 20 million miles have gone down year by year. 21 That's continued even in the states which have 22 gone to the legal limit of 65. In fact, as 23 we're talking here, the bill is before the 5220 1 Governor in Maryland and Pennsylvania has passed 2 it in one house; it will pass the other, so New 3 York State will be joining the rest of the 4 nation expressing the view of their people going 5 back to the 65 mile-an-hour limit; and did you 6 ever think about it, that if the Arabs didn't 7 pull out the shortage figures and raise the 8 price of fuel so much, we would have been 9 traveling 65 all the while, nobody would have 10 been concerned about it, and we wouldn't be here 11 today; but we're here today. I'm glad you're 12 all here. 13 Thank you very much for being 14 here and for expressing your support for this 15 measure. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Johnson in the affirmative. 18 Announce the results. 19 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 20 the negative on Calendar Number 612, Senators 21 Abate, Cook, Gold, LaValle, Leichter, Mendez, 22 Sears, Solomon, Stavisky and Volker. 23 Ayes 49, nays 10. 5221 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 2 is passed. 3 Senator Solomon. 4 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes, Mr. 5 President. Can I have unanimous consent to be 6 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 7 336? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 9 objection, Senator Solomon will be recorded in 10 the negative on Calendar Number 336. 11 Senator Marcellino. 12 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 13 President, may we now please take up Calendar 14 Number 608, Senate 4475? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Secretary will read Calendar Number 608. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 608, Budget Bill, Senate Print 4475, an act 19 making an appropriation for the support of 20 government. 21 SENATOR CONNOR: Explanation. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Stafford, an explanation has been asked for by 5222 1 Senator Connor. 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President, 3 this is an emergency appropriation for the 4 administrative payroll. 5 The bill appropriates 131.5 6 million to meet the May 3rd payroll for certain 7 executive branch officers and employees. It 8 does not include the Governor, Lieutenant 9 Governor, state Comptroller, Attorney General 10 and those employees of the Executive Chamber not 11 subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act for whom 12 notice has been provided to the Comptroller by 13 the Secretary to the Governor. 14 It appropriates 30.5 million to 15 meet the May 3rd payroll for all officers, 16 employees of the judiciary. It also approp 17 riates $40,000 -- and it gets hard to read from 18 40 billion to 40 million to 40,000, but it 19 appropriates 40,000 to meet the May 3rd payroll 20 for officers, employees of the Legislative 21 Library, legislatve nurses and legislative 22 messenger personnel and other legislative staff 23 who are not included. 5223 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 2 recognizes Senator Connor. 3 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 4 President. 5 Mr. President, it appears that 6 once again the Governor has failed to submit to 7 the Legislature provisions for paying the staff 8 of the two houses of the Legislature. 9 Mr. President, we've said it 10 before on this floor and I say it again, and I 11 ask my colleagues in all sincerity on both sides 12 of the aisle, why? Please tell me, someone, 13 where is the logic in paying deputy budget 14 directors, unit heads in the budget department 15 who make over $100,000 a year, who presumably 16 better have something to do with passing a 17 budget in this state; where is the logic in 18 paying them and not paying a $19,000-a-year 19 secretary or receptionist in the Legislature? 20 Where, my colleagues, is the 21 logic in paying over 90- and $100,000 to 22 commissioners in the executive branch and not 23 paying the Legislature's interns who make a 5224 1 paltry sum in living expenses while they are up 2 here on what is supposed to be an educational 3 experience on a non-partisan basis? They are 4 not players in the legislative process or the 5 budget process. They're here to learn. 6 Indeed, I've had the experience 7 of some wonderful interns over the years. Some 8 times we chat after hours. It was explained to 9 me they were conservative Republicans, and I was 10 a very moderate Democrat myself (laughter) and 11 we had a lot in common, but we weren't fellow 12 partisans because that's not why they're here, 13 and we all know that. 14 Many of you on the other side of 15 the aisle have young people, student interns. 16 They happen to be Democrats and Conservatives or 17 whatever, and vice versa. They're not chosen on 18 a partisan basis. It's not a partisan program. 19 They're not here to make policy. They're here 20 to learn about state government and what a sad 21 lesson we teach these students when the state of 22 New York, when the Legislature doesn't keep our 23 commitment to pay their subsistence stipend so 5225 1 they can pay their rent and put food on their 2 table. Where is the logic in that? 3 You know, I was informed a few 4 days ago that some legislative employees had 5 filed suit in the Northern District of New York 6 alleging -- and I believe they will be upheld 7 ultimately -- that the withholding of their pay 8 is unconstitutional, and I have to say this. I 9 have had staff who work on both sides of this 10 aisle and members on both sides of this aisle, 11 the ones on this side of the aisle say openly, 12 "I hope they win that lawsuit," and people on 13 the other side of the aisle say, "I hope you 14 win. I hope they win the lawsuit because it's 15 not right." 16 Well, my colleagues, stop 17 whispering and get up and say what's right or 18 wrong. In the last 18 years that I've been 19 here, we had Democratic governors until this 20 year and, indeed, there were times when Governor 21 Carey or Governor Cuomo made some proposal, 22 sometimes to capture headlines or whatever - 23 we're going to do this, we're not going to do 5226 1 that, I propose that -- and I observed real 2 leadership at work over those years on some of 3 those occasions, and I observed the legislators 4 doing their job as independent voices for what 5 the Constitution tells us is our obligation, and 6 I observed them on both sides of the aisle, but 7 it wasn't surprising when Republicans in the 8 Assembly and Republicans in the Senate and their 9 leaders said, Oh, no, we don't agree with that. 10 We're not going along with that. But I saw it 11 from Democratic Speakers and I saw it from the 12 Democratic Minority Leader in this Senate then, 13 and I heard it from Democratic colleagues in 14 this house and the other house. 15 Think back. Think back. There 16 were times when Democrats in the Legislature 17 said to those governors, No, with all due 18 respect, you're a Democrat, we generally support 19 you, but you're wrong on that one. 20 Where are the voices of 21 independence and reason from the leadership in 22 this house and the other house on the Republican 23 side? Whispering. That's where they are, "Hope 5227 1 we win the lawsuit." Well, stand up and be 2 counted. This is wrong what we're doing. It is 3 absolutely wrong. Every tradition, every major 4 religious tradition from the Muslims, Judaism, 5 Christianity, that has an ethical code, demands 6 that workers be paid for their work. 7 You know, our employees aren't 8 free not to come to work. The Taylor Law 9 forbids them -- forbids them from collectively 10 refusing to come to work. We have a law on the 11 books that says you must come to work, and we're 12 not paying them? We're not paying people who 13 make $22,000 a year? 14 And all of those religious 15 ethical codes say that is a grave moral injus 16 tice, a grave moral injustice not to pay workers 17 their wages. But we don't need that. Common 18 sense tells us that. Our own sense of right and 19 wrong tells us that, and you all know it's true, 20 all of you. 21 Some of the people who brought 22 lawsuits, incredible stories. In the Assembly, 23 Suzanne Haley makes $10,000 to work full time 5228 1 during the session, supports three minor 2 children on that, but we're not going to pay her 3 because George Pataki says she should get a 4 budget passed? 5 Ruth Verbal works for the Senate 6 Minority, earns $24,000 a year, primary wage 7 earner in her household, has a child. I could 8 go on, people, single parents with two and three 9 children make 22-, 19-, $21,000 a year, and 10 we're not going to pay them; and, you know, when 11 they held a protest a week or two ago, some of 12 the staff outside the mansion, the protest with 13 Governor Pataki was doing in not submitting this 14 emergency appropriation because the Governor 15 must submit emergency appropriations as we all 16 know, the Governor's reply was to the press, 17 They should go persuade their legislators to 18 pass a budget. They should go lean on their 19 legislators to pass a budget. 20 My friends and colleagues, we 21 have a Legislative Law that makes it a crime for 22 them to do that. Do you know that? Section 23 66(a) of the Legislative Law, "Prohibited 5229 1 Activity by Legislative Employees: No 2 legislative employee shall, except within the 3 scope of legislative employment, directly or 4 indirectly promote or oppose the passage of 5 bills or resolutions by either house," and that 6 section makes it a misdemeanor, a crime. 7 Now, that doesn't mean staff who 8 work for the Finance Committee can't advocate 9 positions on the budget, because that's within 10 the scope of their legislative duties; but I 11 submit to you that it's not within the scope of 12 the legislative duties of interns, reception 13 ists secretaries in the correspondence division, 14 people who work for other divisions, people - 15 many of the people who work in your own 16 offices. If dealing with the budget is not one 17 of their duties, it is a crime for them to be 18 urging you, Pass the budget, vote for this 19 budget, don't vote for that budget. Yet the 20 Governor says they should go -- they should go 21 tell us pass the budget so they get paid for 22 wages they earn. 23 I have a letter -- a copy of a 5230 1 letter I was given today, to the Governor, that 2 I would like to share with you. 3 "Dear Governor Pataki: I am 4 writing to you as one of thousands of Senate and 5 Assembly employees who are having their salaries 6 withheld at your insistence until the state 7 budget is adopted by the Legislature. 8 "Since you are the one who has 9 decided that I should be penalized for the 10 trouble you are having in negotiating a final 11 spending plan, I thought you might be able to 12 help me with a problem I am having that is 13 directly associated with my lack of a paycheck. 14 The problem is this: 15 "I live outside of Albany, in 16 the city of Troy --" who's the Senator there, 17 may I ask -- "and must take the bus back and 18 forth every day to get to work, but without a 19 paycheck I cannot now afford the $14 a week I 20 must spend on bus fare. It is already a 21 struggle for me as a single mother to provide 22 support for my daughter and son, pay 550 a month 23 in rent and meet other household expenses on a 5231 1 $23,500 annual salary. 2 "As I can hope you can 3 understand, my inability to afford public 4 transportation back and forth to Albany is very 5 worrisome to me. I need my job and do not want 6 to fall behind in my work as a secretary in the 7 Senate Democratic Leaders Correspondence Unit. 8 "Since I do not have any control 9 over budget negotiations and cannot, therefore, 10 do anything to make sure that my paychecks 11 resume any time in the near future, I am 12 respectfully requesting that you take some kind 13 of action to help me get back and forth to my 14 job and that you consider the following 15 suggestions: 16 "First, I understand that you 17 have a taxpayer-supported car and driver at your 18 disposal. Since I am a taxpayer or was until 19 you halted my salary, I thought you might want 20 to send your chauffeur to take me to work every 21 morning and home to my children every evening. 22 "As a second option, I 23 understand that you are continuing to pay full 5232 1 salaries to your highly paid state agency 2 commissioners and most of the budget division 3 employees. If any of these officials live near 4 me, perhaps they can give me a ride. 5 "I anxiously await your reply to 6 my request for this small bit of assistance. If 7 you really believe that my presence at work as a 8 legislative employee is key to getting a Senate 9 budget in place, I cannot imagine why you would 10 continue to make it unaffordable for me to come 11 into the office and do my work. Even if you 12 ultimately refuse to help me get to work, I hope 13 my letter will at least assist you in 14 understanding the terrible hardships your 15 decision is posing for so many employees. 16 Sincerely, Theresa Crisp." 17 Who's going to give this mother a 18 ride to work when she doesn't get a paycheck? 19 Do we really believe that a single mother of 20 two, who makes twenty-three five, has savings to 21 fall back on, has resources to fall back on, can 22 just walk into a bank and sign her name and get 23 a big bridge loan? Of course, she can't. 5233 1 These are the people being hurt 2 by this policy, and I ask all of my colleagues, 3 stand up and be heard. Demand of the Governor, 4 whether he's from your party or not, that he do 5 the right thing and stop this mindful nonsense. 6 It was a promise, a speech, a threat made in the 7 State of the State address. It sounded 8 wonderful. Even he realized you had to pay the 9 legislative nurses. He didn't think about the 10 interns. It was a promise made in haste. 11 Please, do as I saw leaders and 12 members do for the last 18 years. Stand up and 13 speak out to your own Governor, if you are a 14 Republican, for what is right. Stop whisper 15 ing. Of course, the staff should be paid. We 16 all know that. Sometimes partisanship asks too 17 much. To be silent in the face of such a moral 18 injustice, I respectfully suggest, is asking too 19 much, and I know -- let's put it another way. 20 If any member of this house 21 thinks this is the right thing to do, stand up 22 and say so now. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 5234 1 recognizes Senator Waldon. 2 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 3 would the learned gentleman who is the chair of 4 our Finance Committee yield to a question or 5 two? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Stafford, do you yield to Senator Waldon? The 8 Senator yields. 9 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 10 much, Mr. President. 11 Senator Stafford, I appreciate 12 your indulgence. Are you familiar with the term 13 "involuntary servitude"? 14 SENATOR STAFFORD: The answer is 15 what you think it is. 16 SENATOR WALDON: Sir? I can't 17 hear you, Senator. I'm sorry. 18 I didn't hear the Senator, Mr. 19 President. 20 SENATOR STAFFORD: I said the 21 answer is what you think it is. Yes. 22 SENATOR WALDON: Are you also - 23 thank you very much, Senator. 5235 1 Mr. President, if I may continue? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Stafford, do you continue to yield? 4 (There was no response.) 5 SENATOR WALDON: The Senator 6 doesn't wish to yield? 7 SENATOR STAFFORD: I understood 8 you were going to speak. 9 SENATOR WALDON: No, no, sir. If 10 I may, Mr. President, just a couple more 11 questions, and this is serious. This is not a 12 frivolous activity. If the Senator would yield 13 to another question? 14 SENATOR STAFFORD: Certainly. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Senator yields, Senator Waldon. 17 SENATOR WALDON: Senator 18 Stafford, are you aware of or familiar with the 19 fact that in this nation, involuntary servitude 20 was eliminated as a course of action many, many, 21 many, many years ago? 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would point 23 out that my colleague who is questioning me, and 5236 1 who I respect a great deal and we've got along 2 extremely well, I'm taking probably more 3 seriously than you are what you're asking me. I 4 don't know that the question really is 5 pertinent, but out of my respect and caring for 6 you, I will, of course, acknowledge that is the 7 case. 8 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 9 much, Mr. President, Senator Stafford. 10 Mr. President, if I may speak on 11 the bill. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Waldon, on the bill. 14 SENATOR WALDON: My colleagues, 15 the point I was attempting to make and I think 16 it's abundantly clear, is that the people who 17 are not being paid have been put into the 18 position of involuntary servitude, which is 19 anathema to everything that this nation stands 20 for at this time in 1995. It may have been 21 acceptable for certain people in this country in 22 1860, but it is no longer acceptable for any 23 people in 1995. 5237 1 The tragedy is that this 2 Governor's action has, in effect, put all 3 people, be they black, white, Jew or gentile, 4 who are in the position of not receiving their 5 paychecks for work done, in the status of 6 involuntary servitude. 7 Therefore, I would hope that 8 someone would recognize the wrongness, the 9 viciousness, the visceral action being done by 10 the second floor and let us rid ourselves of 11 this albatross. It is not fair. It is not fair 12 as characterized by Senator Connor. It is not 13 fair for the woman who works in my office as a 14 receptionist. It is not fair that people who 15 are in that position are now working Saturdays 16 and Sundays just to get enough money to feed 17 their children. 18 It is abhorrent to all that we 19 stand for as a people, as a body, as a state and 20 as a nation. To my understanding, this kind of 21 action has never happened before in America, and 22 it is time that it stopped. 23 Thank you very much, Mr. 5238 1 President. 2 Thank you, Senator Stafford. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 4 recognizes Senator Marcellino. 5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 6 President, as one who has come to this house 7 only recently and who has yet to receive a 8 paycheck, some people in my district, including 9 my wife, wonder why I'm here under those 10 circumstances, and I remind them very simply 11 that we're all in the same boat, because while 12 it might not be fair that some people aren't 13 getting paid right now, it is also not fair that 14 the taxpayers of this state are saddled with a 15 burden of a $5 billion deficit which has to be 16 dealt with. 17 We wouldn't be debating here 18 today if the Assembly had passed a budget in a 19 timely fashion as was done in this house. There 20 wouldn't be a problem, had the other chamber 21 done their job in the light of day like we did 22 ours and passed a budget in a timely fashion. 23 So, you know, I might agree about 5239 1 some unfairness in the world, but I think it's 2 unfair to the taxpayers of this state to keep 3 this thing going on and on and on and on, and I 4 suggest to my learned colleague, Mr. Connors, 5 that he go back to the Assembly Speaker and say, 6 Pass the rest of your budget bills, and we'll be 7 finished and everybody will get paid. 8 Thank you. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Dollinger. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would Senator 12 Marcellino yield to a question? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Marcellino, do you yield to Senator Dollinger? 15 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 yields. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, do 19 you think innocent people ought to be punished 20 in order to influence those who are guilty? 21 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I don't 22 think anybody is guilty or innocent. I think 23 the taxpayers of this state deserve a fair 5240 1 shake. They deserved a budget which was, by 2 law, to be done by April 1st. It was not done. 3 It was done in this chamber. It was not done in 4 the other chamber. 5 Senator, I would suggest, if you 6 want to lay guilt, go back to the other side of 7 this building and say to your colleagues in the 8 Majority, "Ladies and gentlemen, pass a budget, 9 pass your Article 7 bills, pass your entire 10 budget," and then everybody will get paid and 11 the taxpayers of this state will be well served. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. So 13 you're willing to punish the innocent people who 14 have no influence on the budget process to 15 somehow influence the judgment of those of us 16 who are guilty, who are elected officials and, 17 therefore, responsible, you're going to punish 18 innocent people to somehow affect those who, 19 quote, are "guilty", is that it? 20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Senator, if 21 you want to talk about punishment, I would 22 suggest we go back to our districts and we 23 discuss with our residents in our districts who 5241 1 are being punished now in an over-taxed state 2 which is over-spending and over-taxing for 3 years. Twenty years it has been going on, sir. 4 $5 billion worth of deficit has been run up. 5 We're trying to address that - 6 excuse me. The Governor of this state is trying 7 to address that. This house, I believe, has 8 already addressed that. We've passed a budget 9 that would spend less and tax less and cut a 10 whole slew of problems. If we could get that 11 action out of the other house, we would not be 12 here engaging in this exercise. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 14 President, Senator Marcellino yield to just one 15 final question? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Marcellino, do you yield to just one final 18 question? 19 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Sure. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is there any 21 employee who works for this Legislature, any 22 employee who has had anything to do with 23 spending $5 billion in additional funds? Is 5242 1 there any employee in this Legislature other 2 than Steve Sloan, obviously -- my colleagues 3 mentioned Steve Sloan. Is there anybody in this 4 Legislature who is not an elected official that 5 had anything to do with racking up those monies, 6 spending more than we were taking in? Why 7 should those innocent people who didn't have a 8 thing to do with it, why should they work for a 9 month and not get paid? 10 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Because 11 those innocent individuals are also taxpayers 12 and they are also going to suffer under the 13 actions of or the inaction of the Assembly. If 14 there was a budget, they would be paid, and this 15 state would be better off for it, sir. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'd just like 17 to point out to Senator Marcellino, they're no 18 longer taxpayers. They haven't paid taxes in a 19 month. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Dollinger. Senator Dollinger, you're out of 22 order. 23 The Chair recognizes Senator 5243 1 Paterson is next on the list. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 3 President. 4 I know that there is a court case 5 that has been initiated and I'm standing here 6 trying to think of what the counter-arguments 7 could be to why people who work might not get 8 paid. One that comes to mind would be that 9 there would be some compelling state interest 10 that would be served, that this would force to 11 get a budget passed more quickly, to have staff 12 members punished and not be paid. I suggest 13 that argument would not work. 14 A second argument would be that 15 there's no real irreparable harm to the employ 16 ees, "irreparable" meaning basically permanent 17 harm, because eventually they would get their 18 money back. You might get kicked out of your 19 apartment at that particular time, but I guess 20 they feel eventually you can go find another 21 apartment or something like that, and so the 22 irreparable harm argument, in my opinion, would 23 be met by this particular situation or the 5244 1 irreparable harm argument really wouldn't apply. 2 The final counter-argument that I 3 can think of is that we really, as the 4 judiciary, do not want to meddle into the 5 legislative branch, and although that might be 6 the one argument that has some merit from my 7 point of view, the fact is that that's the exact 8 same argument that we have been using for the 9 last month to try to stop the Governor from 10 imposing his will on the legislators and the 11 legislative staff and the interns, and that is 12 that we don't want one segment of government 13 imposing themselves on what is the purview and 14 the duty of another segment, and so we don't 15 want to have that constitutional test. 16 All of these counter-arguments, 17 in my opinion, are really just in furtherance of 18 the art of sophistry, when you want to do 19 something and you just make up reasons for why 20 you did it, and that's what I think is going on 21 here, and that's what I think really brings this 22 process down. You make bold statements and then 23 you have to find some reason, be it logical or 5245 1 illogical, to try to back them up. 2 If the budget had passed, then 3 the staff would have been paid. Well, the 4 Assembly has now passed their budget and is in 5 the process -- that doesn't mean that the entire 6 budget is going to be passed; it just means the 7 Senate had an idea what their budget should be 8 and they publicized it. Now the Assembly has an 9 idea what their budget should be and they 10 publicized it. That doesn't get the budget to 11 pass. There has to be agreement. That has to 12 be negotiation, and there has to be a final 13 legislative process and a final bill that 14 everyone can agree on, or a series of bills. 15 So that's not the reason, and 16 sometimes I think these types of situations 17 become deliberately euphemistic and complicated 18 when the reality is very simple. It kind of 19 reminds me of reading Crime and Punishment. You 20 go through this long, long, long novel and you 21 have Professor Rachmaninov chasing Raskalnikov 22 for a crime they both knew he committed, and 23 they go through all of this diatribe and 5246 1 dialogue and, finally, at the very end, when 2 Professor Rachmaninov says to him -- he says, "I 3 can't prove that you did it but I know that you 4 did it, so why don't you just give yourself up?" 5 and he says, "I'm not going to," and he goes 6 home and he talks to his significant other, and 7 this woman that doesn't know anything about 8 criminology, when he finally admits to her that 9 he did it, she says to him, "It's wrong." 10 So you read that entire book, and 11 Dostoevsky is really telling you that the answer 12 was in the first line of the book, that an act 13 that's wrong basically should be punished. 14 This is a wrong act, not paying 15 the staff. This is a wrong act because we have 16 a Federal Labor Standards Act and a New York 17 State Finance Law, Article 14, Section - 18 Article 14, Section 200, which mandates that the 19 staff actually be paid, and we choose not to do 20 it because this year, for some reason, since we 21 didn't pass the budget on time, this is 22 something that's popular, this is something that 23 sounds tough and it sounds very strong but, in 5247 1 fact, it is really a manifestation of the 2 process that's made the budget process elongated 3 in the first place; and it is when others do not 4 have the power to fight back, you just take 5 advantage of them. 6 Originally, we weren't going to 7 pay any of the state workers, but we found - 8 and I'm sure as the Governor can tell you, we 9 found that their unions came to their defense 10 and a number of people came to their defense, 11 and even in the original discussions about not 12 paying the staff, there were many who didn't 13 think that this could be a public issue because 14 the staff are considered to be quacks and 15 political hacks and all kinds of individuals who 16 don't merit to get paid just simply because they 17 are legislative staff, and what we've really 18 done in the end is make a mockery of the 19 process. 20 But I think that the fact that 21 the ruling in this case was put over gave us 22 another opportunity because the judicial branch 23 really doesn't want to interfere in the 5248 1 legislative branch and would only do so at a 2 time when it creates a real hardship for 3 employees, which will occur on Wednesday, May 4 3rd, when, for the first time in this process, 5 the staff members will not get any pay, and so I 6 think that what we were being given was a third 7 chance. 8 We missed the opportunity on 9 April 5th. We missed an opportunity on April 10 19th. Here's an opportunity on May 3rd to 11 rectify a situation that we created, to pay 12 individuals for the work that they performed and 13 for the salaries that they deserve, and I think, 14 Mr. President, that would be the only right way 15 to do this. It's really very simple. And there 16 cannot be any excuses, and I understand maybe 17 the political positions that some are in, and so 18 the only disagreement I have with the Minority 19 Leader would be maybe I really don't want to 20 hear anybody get up and say that this is wrong 21 if they can't say it, or what's worse is to get 22 up and say that it's right when you know that 23 it's wrong. 5249 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 2 recognizes Senator Stavisky. 3 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 4 would the Majority Leader yield for a question? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Bruno, do you yield to Senator Stavisky? 7 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 8 President. 9 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator Bruno, 10 we have had a long list of distinguished leaders 11 of the state, Governor's office -- we'll leave 12 out of the Assembly, not always popular in this 13 chamber, and we've had distinguished leaders in 14 this chamber. 15 In your recollection of state 16 government, which I know is long, was there ever 17 a situation where Nelson Rockefeller or Malcolm 18 Wilson put a freeze on the salaries of 19 legislative employees? 20 SENATOR BRUNO: Not to my 21 recollection, Mr. President. 22 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you. 23 Again, would the Majority Leader 5250 1 yield? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Bruno, do you yield? 4 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 5 President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Senator yields. 8 SENATOR STAVISKY: Was there ever 9 an occasion when Earl Brydges or any of Earl 10 Brydges' successors up until the present time - 11 and you know the names, and I don't have to 12 repeat them -- when any of the Majority leaders 13 participated in an action where the legislative 14 employees were not paid? 15 SENATOR BRUNO: Not to my 16 recollection, Mr. President. 17 SENATOR STAVISKY: So Earl 18 Brydges, Warren Anderson, Ralph Mar... Marone... 19 Ralph Marino - 20 SENATOR BRUNO: Ralph Marino, 21 right. How soon we forget, Mr. President. 22 SENATOR STAVISKY: How soon we 23 forget. 5251 1 -- Ralph Marino and others, never 2 participated in an action of this sort? 3 Now, sir - 4 SENATOR BRUNO: Not to my 5 recollection, Mr. President. 6 SENATOR STAVISKY: I ask you the 7 following question, if you would continue to 8 yield. 9 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 10 President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Senator yields. 13 SENATOR STAVISKY: We all 14 recognize the value of the internship programs, 15 both in the Senate and in the Assembly, and I 16 think all of us have been the beneficiaries of 17 that program. Can we have a commitment from you 18 -- you, because obviously you can't speak for 19 the Governor -- that when we notify the 20 universities throughout the state of New York 21 that their internship opportunities available to 22 those students, and we commit ourselves that 23 those opportunities will be available and they 5252 1 commit themselves to helping us to secure 2 interns, that never again will there be an 3 interruption in the compensation paid to those 4 interns that are recommended to us by the 5 universities? 6 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I 7 wish that I could foresee the future, but I 8 don't have that capability, so that I would not 9 like to speculate as to what future actions 10 might be on my part because I wouldn't know what 11 I was relating to in the future. Whatever the 12 circumstances may be in the future, we'll have 13 to address at that particular time. 14 SENATOR STAVISKY: Under those 15 circumstances, if the Majority Leader will 16 continue to yield - 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Bruno, do you continue to yield? 19 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. 20 SENATOR STAVISKY: Would you 21 encourage the chairman of the Higher Education 22 Committee to send out a letter to the universi 23 tyies indicating that, when internships of any 5253 1 kind are offered, that they make not necessarily 2 guarantee that there will be prompt payment of 3 the stipends that have been offered to these 4 institutions and their students? In the 5 interest of truth, would it not be a wise course 6 of action for you to ask the chairman of the 7 Higher Education Committee to send out such a 8 letter to the universities now so that they will 9 know beforehand what is the likely consequence 10 of the service with this Legislature? 11 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 12 I'm not sure I understand what the question is. 13 Are you relating -- is the Senator relating to 14 this year or some future year when we may be 15 having the same situation occur? 16 SENATOR STAVISKY: Wouldn't it be 17 truthful, based on the current situation, to 18 assure the universities that they may be asked 19 to provide students for internships, but we do 20 not guarantee that those students, when they 21 become interns or Senate assistants, will be 22 paid promptly and properly? Would it not be a 23 truthful explanation by the Legislature to warn 5254 1 the universities not to send any students who 2 might, in fact, need the money to be able to 3 survive? Shouldn't we do that in the interest 4 of truth in legislating? 5 SENATOR BRUNO: I think, Mr. 6 President, that people that have responsibility 7 would discharge that responsibility as they see 8 fit, prudently, and make the judgments that they 9 see fit at that appropriate time. I don't feel 10 that any compulsion that I should be making 11 recommendations or dictating anything other than 12 that people do the best that they can with the 13 jobs that they have. 14 And I might add, Mr. President, 15 that I appreciate the concern that's being 16 expressed by the good Senator and his col 17 leagues. I share that concern as do colleagues 18 on this side of the aisle and all of us in this 19 chamber would just have hoped that this 20 conversation and this discussion would be 21 unnecessary, and that we would have had a budget 22 in place by now. We passed our budget March 23 31st. We still don't have a budget passed in 5255 1 the other house. I think that's unfortunate. 2 We could have moved forward with conference 3 committees. We could have done whatever was 4 appropriate to help resolve this. 5 I had hoped two weeks ago that 6 this conversation would be unnecessary, but we 7 don't have a budget in place and I guess, Mr. 8 President, I would just relate that I wonder if 9 the good Senator had communicated his desires to 10 get these people paid by getting a budget passed 11 to the Speaker in the Assembly, a colleague of 12 yours, what your wishes might be on behalf of 13 the people that you're referring to, because we 14 passed our bills in this house to get everybody 15 paid. We passed a bill to pay everybody. 16 And this bill, Mr. President, on 17 the floor, is a bill to allow 200,000-plus 18 people to be paid. That's the purpose of the 19 bill that's on the floor. It is not to deny 20 anyone a paycheck. It's to allow over 200,000 21 people to be paid. Without this legislation, 22 those 200,000 people will not be paid. 23 So I think that we ought to be 5256 1 aware of what we're doing on the floor in this 2 bill. We're trying to move legislation forward 3 to pay the 200,000-plus people who are dependent 4 on our action for their paychecks. 5 SENATOR STAVISKY: On the bill. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Stavisky on the bill. 8 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator Bruno, 9 I wish that you had said that you would be 10 willing to notify each of the universities and 11 colleges in the state of New York that when they 12 accept an invitation to participate in an 13 internship program, that there is a distinct 14 possibility, if there is a fiscal crisis and an 15 impasse, that those legislative interns and 16 Senate assistants will not be paid. 17 I think their services are 18 invaluable. I think you will agree that they 19 are invaluable, and I think that in the 20 interests of seeing that there is no longer 21 hostage-taking, that we at least notify the 22 universities because these are not regular 23 employees of the state Legislature; these are 5257 1 temporary aides who are supposed to benefit from 2 the educational experience, and this is a heck 3 of an educational experience to give them. 4 You're likely to turn them off on government 5 service if this continues any longer, and I say 6 that, under the circumstances, we would be 7 well-advised, perhaps, as legislators interested 8 in higher education, to notify the universities 9 of the sham and the failure to pay these interns 10 and Senate assistants. 11 Perhaps as ranking Minority 12 member on the committee, I should send such a 13 letter, and I have not done so, Senator Bruno, 14 because I still have enough faith in the 15 legislative process, including this house, to 16 believe that by the next payroll we will not be 17 holding any more hostages, and I ask you to 18 consider very carefully that never in Ralph 19 Marino's experience or any of his predecessors 20 did we have any situation comparable to the one 21 that is occurring here today. 22 Change New York called for a 23 change, but it did not call for a system whereby 5258 1 we did not compensate people for work that is 2 done, where they were not responsible for our 3 decisions -- we, as elected officials -- and we 4 should not be passing along to employees who 5 have none of the power to vote, any of the 6 responsibility for the impasse that has occurred 7 here. 8 I will seriously consider this, 9 that if we are not going to have the payment to 10 the employees by the next time there is a bill 11 of this type needed, that I will contact every 12 president of every university and every college 13 in the state, asking them to be aware that there 14 is a danger that their recommended students will 15 not be paid, and I don't think that's the way to 16 go. 17 I would like from you a 18 commitment that this is the last time that the 19 employees will be held hostage, and that you 20 will communicate that to the one person in the 21 state who has the ability to turn the faucet off 22 and to turn it back on again, and I mean by 23 that, the Governor of the state of New York. 5259 1 I'm asking you as a friend, as a 2 colleague, to make that effort, that innocent 3 people are not held responsible for our failure 4 to perform and the Governor's failure to 5 perform, but we must not allow this to happen 6 for any additional pay period. I'm not asking 7 you to say yes or no. I'm asking you to do your 8 best on that issue. 9 Thank you. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Stavisky -- Senator Leichter, why do you rise? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Leichter, why do you rise? 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: I would like 15 to have the floor. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Leichter, we have a list. Senator Stavisky, 18 this is a point of information from the Chair. 19 This bill is put forth by Senator Stafford, and 20 when the Chair recognizes a member, it is with 21 respect to asking questions of the sponsor or 22 debate on the bill, not for the purpose of that 23 member selectively picking out any other member 5260 1 for the purpose of entertaining that debate. 2 Now, Senator Bruno has a propensity to want to 3 be in the center of things, so certainly I'd 4 allow him to do that on this occasion, but I 5 would suggest that we as members recognize that 6 that's the purpose of debates, to either speak 7 on the bill or ask the sponsor of the bill to 8 yield for questions. 9 So with that, Senator Dollinger, 10 the floor is yours. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator 12 Stavisky has said several of the things I wanted 13 to document. I'll just make three quick 14 points. One is I don't understand and I guess 15 my conversation with Senator Marcellino, and I 16 apologize perhaps for the vehemence of my 17 question, but I believe that you can not punish 18 innocent people when you're trying to affect the 19 conduct of the guilty people and that's what 20 we're doing. We're punishing a group of people 21 like one who works for me as an attorney. He 22 makes a very good salary, has seven children, is 23 carrying two houses, doesn't have a nickel to 5261 1 his name. As my grandmother used to say, he 2 doesn't have two nickels to rub together and 3 he's bearing the cost because the Governor, the 4 man who stays on the second floor, believes that 5 if he doesn't get paid he's going to walk into 6 my office and say, Rick, please vote for this 7 budget and urge all of your colleagues to vote 8 for a budget that takes money away from the 9 poor, that changes the SUNY tuition system, that 10 does all the things that this budget might do 11 once we get to its final version. I don't 12 understand why that innocent person is being 13 asked to put pressure on me and on me alone. 14 Two, I guess I don't understand 15 what the Senate's role in this process is. 16 Isn't it very simple? I wonder, let's go back 17 one year from today and suppose I got up on the 18 floor and said, you know, the Governor on the 19 second floor is beating up the New York State 20 Senate. He's now cut a deal in which he's not 21 going to pay a hundred of his employees and in 22 exchange for that, he's not going to pay 3,000 23 of yours, and he's going to take the system of 5262 1 checks and balances, and he's going to disrupt 2 it completely, and he's going to punish the 3 members of the New York State Senate and all of 4 their employees. I dare say there are at least 5 35 people in this chamber would have jumped to 6 their feet and would have said, We're not going 7 to let that Governor treat us that way. 8 This house has to be respected. 9 I was once lectured by Senator Marino about the 10 respect for this house. We're not going to let 11 the Governor on the second floor highjack the 12 reputation of this house. I don't hear any of 13 that talk except from the other 25 members that 14 happen to sit on this side of the aisle. 15 What has changed in a year? Well, 16 let's see, the Governor on the second floor is 17 now Republican, and I gather that the Senate is 18 no longer respecting its traditions, no longer 19 protecting its traditions, no longer protecting 20 its prerogatives and no longer protecting its 21 employees. Instead, they've decided that 22 they're going to jump in with the man who lives 23 on the second floor and let their tradition of 5263 1 the Senate go down the drain. I think that's 2 greatly unfortunate. 3 I'll close with one other 4 comment. Look at all the people who are paid. 5 The Commissioner of Correctional Services, he 6 gets $102,000; the Commissioner of Education 7 will get $102,000; the Commissioner of Health 8 gets $150,000. The Commissioner of Environ 9 mental Conservation gets $95,000. Bob King, 10 from Monroe County, the Director of Regulatory 11 Affairs gets 104,000. The Commissioner of 12 Economic Development, Mr. Gargano, has got lots 13 of money, he continues to get his $90,000 a 14 year. The Commissioner of Parks and Recreation, 15 the millionaire Bernadette Castro, she continues 16 to get $90,000 a year. The chairman of the 17 Cable Commission, the very commission the 18 Governor wants to abolish in this budget, 19 continues to draw his pay at the rate of $82,000 20 a year. 21 The unit heads in the Division of 22 Budget, all of whom have a big impact on this 23 budget, continue to get paid more than $100,000 5264 1 a year, and yet the woman who works part time in 2 the session for me as a secretary who gets paid 3 $7800, doesn't get paid. Doesn't get paid, for 4 one month while she waits for the process to 5 work. 6 I said it before, Mr. Chairman, 7 I'll say it one more time. This is the 8 equivalent of total political warfare. This is 9 punishing the innocent to somehow affect the 10 conduct of the guilty, of supposedly the 11 guilty. It doesn't seem to make a whit's worth 12 of sense to me. 13 Let's return some sense. Let's 14 take those lessons that I was taught about the 15 respect for this chamber and let's put it into 16 place. Let's tell the Governor on the second 17 floor that he can't run the legislative 18 operation in this state. I think we're setting 19 a very dangerous precedent. I hate to say it 20 but the 36 people on the other side of the 21 aisle, this will come back to haunt you some 22 day. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 5265 1 recognizes Senator Gold. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. Thank 3 you. 4 Mr. President, a lot of -- we're 5 silly to say this stuff every couple of weeks, 6 and I think the political posturing is now out 7 there and the Republicans have blamed the other 8 house, and we've made our points, and I'd like 9 to get to do something useful if it's possible 10 and with that in mind, I would ask Senator Bruno 11 to yield. 12 And let me remind you, Mr. 13 President, that this is either a budget bill or 14 a Rules bill, and there's nothing improper in 15 asking any member ever to yield and -- but I 16 think if Senator Bruno would do me the courtesy. 17 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 18 President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Bruno, as a single member, Senator Bruno does 21 yield, but your interpretation of the rules of 22 this house are, in fact, incorrect as it relates 23 to other members, but Senator Bruno yields. 5266 1 SENATOR GOLD: Well - 2 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Bruno yields. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Senator 6 Bruno, I want to get something useful if we can 7 out of this, and I know you for a lot of years 8 and you were a staff member and you know what 9 that feeling is but, as you stand here today, 10 Senator, you're more than a staff member. 11 You're someone who, over the years, deserves to 12 be admired as a very successful businessman and 13 when you became the leader of this house, you 14 made it a point to tell everybody that you 15 thought this place would do better running to 16 some extent as a business. We start on time, 17 which is a miracle, and it's your miracle. 18 We've heard the back and forth 19 positioning. You've heard the comments of 20 Senator Connor, which I thought were very well 21 taken, in terms of the fact that these people 22 must work. They don't come to work for their 23 personalities. So what I'm getting at, and the 5267 1 question I want to ask you is really a simple 2 one: It's a simple one. What arrangements have 3 been made -- we're now talking to the thousands 4 of employees who work for the Senate, who are 5 listening to you and who respect you -- have 6 there been arrangements made for these people to 7 go to banks in the area who understand the 8 Legislature? Are there any financial 9 institutions in the area who know the way the 10 Legislature works? Have you told any of these 11 people, for example the lady who wrote a letter 12 from your district, what banks they might go to 13 to get some kind of a bridge loan? Have you 14 made any arrangements for them within your own 15 conference? 16 People are listening. Just the 17 average guy, not me and not the people in this 18 room, why don't you now, while we go over the 19 microphones, tell the average guy that works for 20 the Senate how he or she gets along in these 21 next few days and what you anticipate not only 22 as a caring human being but as a businessman who 23 understands what it is to be a staff member, to 5268 1 be an employee and to have to pay the mortgage 2 and the rent and the food and the bus fare. 3 Just tell them because it would be good for 4 them, not politics, but good for them. What 5 should all of these residents of Troy and Albany 6 and the ones throughout the state do in the next 7 few weeks and please don't insult all of us by 8 saying, Call the Speaker and get him to do a 9 budget. Forget that nonsense. 10 You talk to the Speaker. He's a 11 bigger "shoot"; you're a big shot, you know. 12 You guys talk on your level. Just tell the 13 average guy how they can get the money to pay 14 these bills in the next few weeks. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you, 16 Senator Gold. 17 We have put out some information 18 that relates to conversations with some of the 19 local banks, and the local banks have made 20 themselves available to loan money to people 21 that would qualify. One I know, I don't want to 22 mention the banks, but a number of the banks in 23 the Capital District, and if you need the names 5269 1 of banks, we'd be happy to supply them, but I 2 believe that the staff people have received 3 memos indicating that they could apply for 4 credit and that their applications would be 5 handled expeditiously given the circumstances, 6 and we have tried to lend support to that 7 through our office. 8 Also, Mr. President, employees 9 have access to the credit unions that make loans 10 and then will take the repayment out of the 11 paychecks when they start to flow, so there are 12 ways that people who have needs can meet those 13 needs, and it is unfortunate, Mr. President, 14 that we again have to talk about ways that 15 people can pay their bills, and I am very 16 sympathetic to that, and it concerns me a great 17 deal, and we have discussed that. We have done 18 our best to move the process forward. We want 19 to see the people get paid. 20 People are working seven days a 21 week, some of these people, 14, 16, 18 hours a 22 day. I thought that you'd be interested in 23 this, Senator Gold. 5270 1 SENATOR GOLD: Oh, I am. 2 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. And they 3 have been working diligently. Yesterday, 4 Sunday, I had conversations throughout the day 5 with staff people that were here. Saturday all 6 day, for that matter, talked with staff people 7 that were here, so I am well aware of how 8 diligent these people are, trying to move the 9 process forward and trying to be helpful to us 10 and I am very sympathetic and I feel very, very 11 badly that we, again, are facing a situation 12 that's creating so much hardship for people. 13 So yes, we have tried to be 14 supportive in making credit available through 15 the normal institutions that are there to help 16 people who need money short term or long term. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. Will 18 the Senator yield to one more question? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Bruno, do you yield? 21 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 22 President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5271 1 yields. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I heard 3 what you said, and I'd like to encourage you to 4 take it another step further. You say you don't 5 want to mention the institutions. We've spoken. 6 I would suggest, and I want to ask you this as a 7 question. Would you be willing, if not on the 8 floor, to at least have some of your senior 9 staff talk to some of the local banks because, 10 when you say people who are qualified, I'm not 11 worried about people who are qualified. There 12 are people who, in a banking sense, may not be 13 qualified but who every day come to work, get a 14 paycheck. They don't have credit cards, they 15 don't have other loans because maybe they're not 16 qualified, and they're in worse conditions, 17 Senator Bruno, than people who have good credit, 18 and when you say go to a credit union and 19 whatever, that's easy to say. 20 I don't know whether or not you 21 are envisioning, Senator, that we will pay the 22 interest to these people for the money that we 23 are withholding, earned money, because the 5272 1 people have to come to work. I don't know 2 whether you're envisioning us doing that. 3 The other thing which is 4 disturbing, I mean there was a memo put out on 5 March 30th, by Steve Sloan, and there were 6 questions and answers in here, and he says 7 things like, What about my mortgage or lease 8 payments, car loans, et cetera, becoming due? 9 And his answer was, such obligations are private 10 matters between you and those parties. However, 11 you should advise them that there's a problem. 12 Senator, you know, I -- I'm 13 talking to you, and if you don't want to answer 14 me on the record, but you do something about it, 15 I'll love you and respect you anyway but, 16 Senator, there are people who are not going to 17 be taken care of by the political bickering 18 between my side of the aisle, your side of the 19 aisle, this house and the other house, and I 20 would say, Senator Bruno, that now, the third 21 time around is the time for compassion and that 22 your office, since you're not going to do 23 anything today, I mean let's not kid ourselves. 5273 1 This bill is going to pass and all of this talk 2 back and forth will be nothing, and we'll do the 3 same thing in two more weeks. 4 But, Senator, I urge you, because 5 you are a decent human being whose political 6 philosophies I can't buy, but a decent human 7 being, Senator. In all seriousness, talk to 8 some of the local institutions. Maybe one of 9 the banks, and I'm not going to press you on it 10 by naming them on the floor, the local ones. 11 There's a bank that's on the Concourse, maybe 12 they would, as a good faith matter, as an 13 introduction to new clients, would just from 14 being here and understanding, if Joe Bruno 15 called them, would put together a program so 16 that these people could assign their paychecks 17 or do something that at least they, on a 18 day-to-day level, would have some intelligent 19 situation. 20 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I 21 believe Albany Savings Bank has a program in 22 place and they will relate to people who go in, 23 and I am fairly certain that they will be 5274 1 responsive and people can borrow with an 2 institution by pledging their paycheck and get 3 their paycheck in advance so there are mechanics 4 that have been discussed and put in place. 5 I would hope that most people, if 6 they're listening or have received some memos to 7 that effect, would be aware of that and avail 8 themselves of that if they find themselves in 9 that need. But Albany Savings is one of the 10 banks that comes to mind that had extended 11 themselves in a particular way. There were 12 others that I -- I don't recall, but I remember 13 Albany Savings because it's within walking 14 distance of here. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, if 16 I may, that's the kind of information which I 17 think we owe it to our staffs to get around. I 18 think a memo from you would be helpful, and 19 there are people that may not have heard that 20 today because once the bickering is over today, 21 the same people who had a financial problem last 22 week and the week before are going to have it 23 tomorrow and the day after. 5275 1 SENATOR BRUNO: Well, also in 2 finishing my answer, Mr. President, I would 3 suggest that individual legislators with their 4 staff can help direct them to proper 5 institutions. We have indicated that to people 6 that we have talked to that we should be helpful 7 in getting them to the right places because 8 you're right, some of them aren't aware of the 9 mechanics of how to handle this, and it's 10 somewhat intimidating, but I think that if we 11 here in the house are helpful to them, I think 12 that would be a real service that we would be 13 providing. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Paterson, why do you rise? 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 17 Senator Gold had the floor? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Gold had the floor. Senator Leichter is next on 20 the list. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Would Senator 22 Gold yield to a question? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5276 1 Gold, do you yield? 2 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, sir. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Gold, 4 as noble as it is to recommend the lending 5 institutions, the lending institutions, it would 6 seem to me this would be the best time of the 7 year for them, not just being helpful. They 8 charge interest on these loans, don't they? 9 SENATOR GOLD: I think so. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: One final 11 question, if Senator Gold would yield. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Gold, do you continue to yield? 14 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 continues to yield. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, the 18 reason that I didn't ask anyone any questions on 19 this particular issue is that I knew that 20 individuals like Senator Bruno were interested 21 and were doing something. But do you find it 22 disturbing that we now have very high officials 23 in the state spending large and long periods of 5277 1 time trying to figure out what -- how to 2 facilitate loans to individuals when, if we had 3 just included everyone in this bill that was 4 sitting here, we could spend all that time 5 trying to negotiate a budget? 6 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, 7 Senator Paterson apparently understands the 8 point that I was trying to make which I think 9 went over some other people's head. 10 The answer is that you are 11 exactly right, Senator Paterson. The point is 12 that once we get rid of all of these wonderful 13 principles that we talk about, we ought to be 14 looking to see where those principles lead us. 15 It is not enough to tell people that my 16 principles lead me to a path and wherever that 17 path goeth, I goeth. If you know a path is 18 leading into a direction which is dangerous or 19 unjust, you shouldn't get on that path. 20 Now, Senator Bruno, I respect the 21 fact that you have a right to different 22 conclusions than I do, and I know you've always 23 been respectful of my right also but, Senator, 5278 1 we are going through machinations to get local 2 institutions to take care of people who are 3 faced with a hardship that we created. 4 Senator, we are creating the 5 hardship, and it's not Silver and it's not the 6 Assembly and it's not the budget process. 7 That's all junk. That's stuff on a level that 8 these people never got into, never bargained 9 for. They are working people. I remember, 10 Senator Bruno, when you and I were staff people 11 in the Assembly in the early 1900s, I think, and 12 Senator, in those days, you know, people would 13 say to you, if you worked for the Legislature, 14 they would say to you, "Who's your Rabbi?" I 15 know somebody by the name of John Calandra, may 16 he rest in peace, who I loved -- loved. Johnny 17 said to me one day, "Hey, kid," he said, "who's 18 your Rabbi?" I said, "Saul Teplis at the Queens 19 Village Jewish Center." He says, "I don't care 20 where you go to church. I mean who's your Rabbi 21 that helped you get your job." You had to have 22 a Rabbi to get you in the Legislature. 23 Today I like to think that many 5279 1 of you operate the way I do and many of you who 2 are in the area and are talented and come from 3 proper recommendations get jobs, and they may 4 not be registered in one party or the other, but 5 these are decent people who come to work for the 6 Legislature and the jobs are simple jobs, every 7 day business jobs. They're the business people 8 that Senator Bruno respects so much. They're 9 not political hacks; they're not politicians. 10 They're simple business people. Two people have 11 houses next to each other out in Troy, Senator 12 Bruno. They drive their cars. One's a 13 secretary for a local law firm; one works for 14 the Legislature. One's a secretary perhaps for 15 a local brokerage company; the other one works 16 for the Legislature, but they're simple business 17 people, and to work out a system whereby we get 18 on a road, we get on a path that we somehow make 19 religious that puts those people into a 20 situation where we now have to solve a problem 21 for them as if we never caused it and we were no 22 part of it is just a silly situation to put 23 ourselves in. 5280 1 It's a situation that Joe Bruno 2 in the privacy of his own mind doesn't like, I 3 know that, but then the answer is we don't do 4 it. That's all. We don't do it, and we don't 5 worry about embarrassing this one or that one. 6 We just do it as right. 7 Senator Bruno, I'm glad you said 8 what you said today because, in all fairness, I 9 think there should be a memo. I don't know how 10 many people knew about Albany Savings. I don't 11 know what the Key Bank is doing. I don't know 12 how we explain to these people that you can work 13 and lose ten percent interest over a period of 14 time because now you got to pay for your 15 paycheck to be gotten because you pledged it. I 16 don't know what sense that makes, but at least 17 if something's being done, Senator Bruno, so 18 let's take that out of politics and you have my 19 congratulations. But let's not congratulate 20 ourselves too much because, as the deputy leader 21 on this side pointed out, we are breaking our 22 arm patting ourselves on the back by trying to 23 find a solution to a problem that we caused. 5281 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Waldon, why do you rise? 3 SENATOR WALDON: I would like to 4 know if the good Senator from Queens County, 5 Senator Gold, would yield to a question. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Gold, do you yield to Senator Waldon. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, sir. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 yields. 11 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, I'm not 12 sure that I heard you correctly but I thought 13 that I heard you say some -- let me rephrase 14 that. Are you familiar in the real estate law 15 with the phrase "constructive eviction"? 16 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, sir. 17 SENATOR WALDON: Are you -- if I 18 may continue, Mr. President. May I continue? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Waldon, pardon an interruption for just a minute 21 but Senator Stafford, as I understand -- excuse 22 me. Go ahead. Senator Gold, do you continue to 23 yield? 5282 1 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. 2 SENATOR WALDON: Are you also 3 familiar, Senator Gold, with the phrase, and I 4 may not be accurate because I've never practiced 5 labor law, "constructive firing"? 6 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. I've heard 7 about these phrases, by the way, at my offices 8 at Herzfeld & Rubin, at 40 Wall Street, New 9 York, New York, (212) 344-5500. 10 VOICE: $300 an hour. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Don't lower my 12 rates, I'll take care of it. 13 SENATOR WALDON: Under the 14 penumbral zone of constructive firing, could you 15 characterize what's happening to certain 16 employees of the Senate now who are, in fact, 17 working, as our good Senator and leader, Senator 18 Bruno said, some seven days a week, some 14, 16, 19 18 hours a day, might that be characterized as 20 constructive firing? 21 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, before I 22 answer that, why don't you give me your analysis 23 of it, because you will phrase it better than 5283 1 I. I'm interested in hearing your view on that 2 subject. 3 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 4 much, if I may continue, very much. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Gold, you continue to yield? 7 SENATOR GOLD: Oh, yes, yes. 8 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Gold, I 9 believe that, when people come to work and work 10 diligently, honestly, deliver all of the 11 services demanded upon them and from them by 12 their superior, supervisor and the institution 13 that they work for and they are denied pay, they 14 have, in effect, been constructively fired. 15 I also believe in this instance 16 that those who are constructively fired being 17 that this baby, the constructive firing, is the 18 issue of the legislative process through the 19 executive branch, that they have a right for 20 redress from the state, not from Albany Savings 21 Bank, not from Key savings bank, not from Joe, 22 the shylock around the corner, and therefore, 23 they should in my opinion be allowed to go to 5284 1 the unemployment agency and file and, in fact, I 2 would like to lay out on the air that, if each 3 of us were to create a fiction for our employees 4 and fire them, then one week from today they 5 could qualify or thereabouts, qualify for 6 unemployment, they could receive as a benefit 7 one week later one half of their weekly wages up 8 to $300 a week. They wouldn't have to worry 9 about paying interest; they wouldn't have to 10 worry about filling out paperwork for a loan. 11 It would be the concern of the state to ensure 12 that they had enough money to exist at least for 13 26 weeks until this process is over, and I hope 14 that within 26 weeks that we will be able to 15 have a budget. 16 Now, if one of my employees were 17 to come to me after I make the statement on this 18 floor and say, "Senator Waldon, I heard what you 19 said. Are you a man of your word?" I would have 20 to bite the bullet. I'm not saying that, as an 21 institution, is what we should do, but I'm 22 suggesting that that is a course of action that 23 we might assume. 5285 1 In any event, circumstances see 2 it as constructive firing, what's happening. I 3 also see if as involuntary servitude. I would 4 hope, as you have said, as the good Senator 5 Paterson has said, as I believe in the hearts of 6 people like the great Senator from Staten 7 Island, John Marchi, our good Senator from 8 Rensselaer, our leader, Senator Bruno, Senator 9 Volker, all the guys who are and ladies who I 10 believe in their heart recognize that this is 11 wrong, this is visceral, that this is vicious, 12 it is abusive, and it is an abuse of power and 13 authority, that they would agree that we have 14 constructively fired our employees. They have a 15 right to unemployment, and maybe we ought to 16 facilitate that process. 17 I thank you for yielding, Senator 18 Gold. I appreciate your indulgence and, Mr. 19 President, I certainly appreciate your 20 indulgence. Thank you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 22 recognizes Senator Leichter. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 5286 1 if Senator Marcellino would be good enough to 2 yield, and I appreciate he was out getting some 3 much needed rest and recreation. I said - 4 asked him to come back in because I wanted to 5 ask him a question. He's had to listen to a lot 6 of other debate since then and thank you, 7 Senator, for your patience. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Leichter, the Chair would remind you, as I have 10 earlier members, that the proponent of this bill 11 is Senator Stafford. It has traditionally not 12 been the experience nor the practice in this 13 house for a person when they're recognized on 14 the floor to pick out selectively or non 15 selectively members on the other side of the 16 aisle to answer questions. So while I do not 17 want to deny Mr. -- Senator Marcellino from 18 responding, acknowledging an inquisition from 19 you, I would just point out to you that it is 20 totally out of the practice of this house. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 22 just -- I'm sorry, Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 5287 1 me, Senator Leichter. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Sure. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Paterson, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 6 if Senator Leichter would suffer an interruption 7 for a second? We've been on this point for a 8 couple of occasions today, and I just want to 9 get this cleared up. 10 Out of practice and out of 11 order. This may not be the way we've usually 12 done it but, you know, we come here on time 13 now. We have Senator Bruno in charge. We're 14 doing much better than we used to be, and what 15 I'm saying is that, and in all seriousness, I 16 don't understand that we can not ask another 17 member who has some opinion on the subject that 18 we're talking about to yield for a question. 19 I don't see anything in the 20 Senate rules -- I've been looking at them since 21 you raised this a little earlier -- that 22 actually prohibits that. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Well, the 5288 1 position -- I should say the Chair is not in a 2 position and has not ruled on this, Senator 3 Paterson. It just has been the practice of this 4 house, and the Chair has been reminded of that 5 on a number of occasions that this is out of the 6 ordinary. 7 Now, there are several instances 8 just for instance, there are several instances, 9 Senator, that Senator Marcellino could rise and 10 ask Senator Kruger to yield. Well, Senator 11 Kruger doesn't happen to be in the chamber at 12 this moment. Now, that has not been the 13 practice of members of this house to try to 14 embarrass other members, and that is part of the 15 position of this particular Chair is to make 16 sure that members are acting accordingly, and I 17 think responsibly and certainly politely and 18 graciously, so while I raise the point of this 19 and just try to bring it to your attention, I am 20 not precluding Senator Marcellino -- that's his 21 option as to whether or not he wishes to yield 22 to a question or not, so I'll ask him at this 23 point, Senator Marcellino, do you yield to 5289 1 Senator Leichter? 2 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I yield. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Senator yields. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you. 6 Mr. President, just as a preface, let me say 7 I've been in this house many years, even longer 8 than you have, and I believe that we've had this 9 practice where somebody may wish to ask a 10 question of a member who has stood up and made a 11 statement on the floor or asked somebody who, in 12 fact, is responding to a question asked by 13 another member. 14 So, Senator, it -- it may well be 15 that -- I know you worked hard earlier passing 16 two very significant bills and that your views 17 may be affected by the work that you did earlier 18 today, but I submit to you that you're -- you're 19 wrong. In any event, I thank Senator Marcellino 20 for yielding and the reason I asked him to yield 21 is because I was out of the floor temporarily. 22 I came back in; there was a heated debate be 23 tween him and Senator Dollinger and there were 5290 1 comments made that, frankly, perplexed me and 2 that I wanted to get some clarification on. 3 Both Senator Marcellino and 4 Senator Dollinger were talking about guilty 5 people, and I wanted to know in this Capitol, 6 are there people that are guilty, Senator? 7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: With all due 8 respect, Senator, it was not I who used the term 9 "guilty people," and I never take personally 10 anything that is brought, and if someone argues 11 with fervor their point of view, I do not take 12 it personally nor did I take Senator Dollinger's 13 fervent belief in his point of view personally. 14 I don't think he was directing it at me in a 15 personal way. 16 I do believe that everyone in 17 this -- everyone should be paid, I would agree 18 with that. I mean we all would agree with that, 19 and I think it would be the desire of every 20 Senator in this chamber to do that. Unfortun 21 ately we're not in a position to do that, and I 22 would suggest again that the reason for that is 23 that we don't have a budget and we don't have a 5291 1 budget from the other chamber and, if we had a 2 budget from the other chamber, we wouldn't be 3 engaged in this exercise for the last couple of 4 hours which, frankly, in my opinion has been a 5 waste of time. We could be doing far more 6 productive things such as passing a budget and 7 we're not. We're debating for what purpose, I 8 don't know, but we're debating. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Leichter. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator 13 Marcellino will yield. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Marcellino, do you now continue to yield to 16 another question from Senator Leichter? 17 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Sure I do. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, thank 19 you. 20 I think you're beginning to put 21 this in a better perspective for me, in a better 22 position, and as to whether there are guilty 23 people here or not, and I think you're right it 5292 1 was Senator Dollinger who was using that 2 phrase. But is it your -- is it your position 3 that it's the obligation of the Assembly to pass 4 the Senate version of the budget and that unless 5 that be done, that nobody in this Capitol, 6 referring now to legislative employees and the 7 corporal guard in the executive chamber should 8 be paid? 9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Senator, I 10 believe the process is that both houses could 11 pass -- if they passed the same budget that 12 would be ideal, but if they passed their version 13 budgets, Senator Bruno has said and we're ready 14 to go with conference committees and make it 15 work, we could put together our differences as 16 we did in the 65-mile-an-hour bill. Both houses 17 came together, conferenced, a bill was put 18 together that was agreed upon in conference and 19 passed by this chamber. 20 We could do the same thing with 21 budget bills. They don't have to agree with 22 everything we do. You do not have to agree with 23 everything I believe in and vice versa 5293 1 obviously. If the Assembly would put something 2 on the table then we could get together and put 3 our differences together and come to something 4 positive, and then my hard working staff that is 5 probably listening to this comment right now as 6 well as all of your hard working staffs could be 7 paid as well as us, which would make my wife 8 very happy. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 10 Marcellino, again through the Chair. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Leichter, are you asking Senator Marcellino to 13 yield? 14 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, I 15 yield; yes, I will. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 yields. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Is it your 19 position that if the Assembly passed a budget, 20 and they have passed budgets bills, they may 21 take the position that the Senate hasn't passed 22 a comprehensive budget, but I assume that the 23 Senate has -- let's assume that the Assembly has 5294 1 or if the Assembly passes a budget, and I know 2 they've passed budget bills, at that point, even 3 though there are differences, under your view, 4 should everybody be entitled to be paid? 5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Once there 6 is a budget passed by the state and by this - 7 by both chambers and signed off by the Governor, 8 then we have a budget and it's my understanding 9 right now that the Assembly has not passed a 10 comprehensive budget, not passed complete bills, 11 so we really can't negotiate anything, can we, 12 because you can't negotiate a part which could 13 be bigger than the whole. 14 So I think we have a problem and 15 it can be resolved best if we could just get a 16 complete budget from the other chamber and put 17 our conference committees to work and then 18 everybody could get satisfaction. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 20 Marcellino, if you continue to yield. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Marcellino, do you continue to yield? 23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I will 5295 1 continued to yield as long as the Senator has 2 questions. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 continues to yield. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 6 Marcellino, I'm having trouble with your 7 answers. 8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I'm having 9 trouble with your questions, sir. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: I understand 11 you are, and I can understand why. But, 12 Senator, if the Assembly passes a budgets, 13 comprehensive budget -- this is hypothetical - 14 and the Senators pass a comprehensive budget - 15 again this is also hypothetical -- the two 16 budgets do not conform, there are disagreements 17 between them and then they go into negotiation 18 through conference committees, are they entitled 19 to be paid at that point; or is it your view 20 that the people only are entitled to be paid 21 when there is a budget that's signed by the 22 Governor? 23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Senator, 5296 1 I'll say it again, we would do a disservice to 2 every member of the tax-paying public, and that 3 includes our employees, if we did not pass a 4 proper legal budget. I think we would have 5 better served everyone in this state had such a 6 budget been passed by April 1st. Then we would 7 not be here. There would be no exercise that 8 we're going through. We would not be hearing 9 the same question asked six different times in 10 hopes that we would get the same non-answer, 11 you're not going to get. 12 I do believe that everyone should 13 be paid when we have a budget passed, signed in 14 legal law, lawful budget, which requires an 15 agreement of both houses, signed by the 16 Governor. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: And not - 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Leichter, you asking the Senator to continue to 20 yield? 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Marcellino, you continue to yield? 5297 1 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I continue 2 to yield. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: And, Senator, 4 until such a budget is passed, people are not 5 entitled to be paid? 6 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Senator, 7 that's a determination that the Governor has 8 made, and we are here trying to get a budget 9 passed. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Leichter, you asking Senator Marcellino to 13 continue to yield? 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Marcellino, do you continue to yield? 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 yields. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, there 21 is a bill on the floor. You and I, as cogs in 22 this whole operation, are required to vote on 23 it. The Governor has the power of signing or 5298 1 vetoing, so it isn't just a matter of the 2 Governor is to decide. You and I have to decide, 3 and my question to you is, based on what you've 4 said, that when a budget is signed, people are 5 entitled to be paid, the other side of the coin, 6 if that's your view, that until that budget is 7 passed, people are not entitled to be paid. 8 Now, that's what I'm trying to 9 get you to clarify for me. 10 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Senator, I 11 think I've answered that question -- it's the 12 same question -- on numerous occasions. I think 13 the court -- the stenographer could read it 14 back, but I think I've given you an answer to 15 that question, I truly do. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: And the answer 17 is that they're not entitled to be paid; is that 18 your answer? 19 SENATOR MARCELLINO: No, my 20 answer is what I have stated at least five times 21 already. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. I thank 23 my good friend for his, I won't say clarifica 5299 1 tion, but for the way he dealt with the -- with 2 the matter. Just very briefly, Mr. President, 3 because I addressed myself on this before. 4 I have trouble when people talk 5 about guilty and not guilty, and I appreciate 6 and understand the point that Senator Dollinger 7 who used the term "guilty" was trying to make. 8 He was trying to say that certainly the 9 responsibility that there is not a budget does 10 not lie with staff people. In fact, I think all 11 of us will recognize, and will have to admit the 12 staff people work extremely hard on both sides 13 of the aisle and on both ends of the Capitol. 14 They're working harder even than the 15 legislators. I think the legislators are 16 working hard. 17 My point is, and which has 18 troubled me throughout the idea that legislators 19 who are here who are working, because they 20 disagree among themselves or they disagree with 21 the Governor, that they're not entitled to be 22 paid. Now, of course, it makes if even worse to 23 say that those people who don't vote on the 5300 1 budget, that is the staff who we acknowledge are 2 working very hard, are not entitled to be paid, 3 entitled to be paid because you don't agree with 4 the Governor, or you people aren't entitled - 5 "you" being the Senate Majority -- aren't 6 entitled to be paid because you don't agree with 7 the Assembly Majority or the Assembly Majority 8 isn't entitled to be paid because they don't 9 agree with you. 10 What sort of a concept are we 11 putting into our democratic system? It's 12 appalling. It's shameful, and it becomes really 13 particularly disturbing and distressing when 14 secretaries, staff members, particularly those 15 who are not paid very much and who are really 16 dependent on this paycheck to meet the basic 17 human needs of putting bread on the table, 18 keeping shelter, are not being paid. 19 It's just not the way to 20 proceed. It's just wrong. I understand this is 21 the position of the Governor. I think he's 22 pandering. He's showboating. We've established 23 that he got that bad idea from the previous 5301 1 Governor who, at least as I pointed out, was 2 smart enough actually never to implement it, but 3 it's -- it's the sort of cheapening of 4 democracy, of the simple solutions that may sell 5 well with the public initially, like term 6 limits, don't pay legislators unless they come 7 up with a budget. 8 I'm sure, if I went to your 9 district, Senator, and there's some aspects of 10 this budget that I'm sure your constituents 11 don't like, maybe the fact that there's going to 12 be a higher tuition at SUNY and what? Are we 13 going to base whether you get paid or not or 14 whether anybody else gets paid on whether those 15 people are satisfied with that particular 16 provision? 17 Doesn't make sense. It's -- we 18 shouldn't be doing this because we're hurting 19 the -- the most important thing we have. More 20 important than a budget, is a Constitution which 21 is a governmental process which is a democratic 22 system, and never before in any state that I 23 know of and certainly not nationally has the 5302 1 compensation of legislators and their staff ever 2 been based on whether they perform in a way that 3 the Governor likes. That's terrible. 4 Just -- just look at the propo 5 sition for a moment, so, Senator Marcellino, and 6 I understand you're not the one who used that, 7 what I find offensive term of "guilty". No 8 guilty people here. There's a basic disagree 9 ment, some very deep philosophical disagreement 10 that people are entitled to work out without 11 being told, Unless you work it out right now and 12 do it the way that I want, you're not going to 13 get paid, and I'm not going to pay your staff. 14 Not the way to do it. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 16 recognizes Senator Abate. 17 SENATOR ABATE: I was not going 18 to speak, but I was thinking today about the 19 result of this decision, and rightfully so. 20 We've spent the last four weeks talking about 21 the devastating impact this decision will have 22 on our staffs, hard working staffs that have 23 little to do with when the budget gets passed, 5303 1 what's going to be in the budget or really any 2 of the details surrounding that budget, and I 3 think all of us agree if we put the rhetoric 4 aside, the politics aside, that these innocent 5 hard working staff should be paid and we should 6 go about the business of ensuring a budget is 7 resolved. 8 But there's another issue that's 9 very important here that I think we're all miss 10 ing, is the long-term impact of this decision 11 and how this decision will irreparably harm the 12 institution called the state Legislature because 13 I know I, for one, will have to hire staff in 14 the near future. I have staff that will be 15 leaving me that will only make short-term 16 commitments, and I have to now be in the 17 business in this spring to ask people, the best 18 and the brightest people, to interview and want 19 to work for the Legislature. 20 What am I going to say to the 21 best and the brightest? How am I going to 22 attracted these individuals to come to work with 23 the Legislature when they know that we're not a 5304 1 Legislature of our word, when we can't say to 2 them, If you work an honest day, you'll get paid 3 for that honest day of work? How are we going 4 to get these individuals around the state, the 5 people who graduate from our universities, who 6 are good, to say, Well, come on, you want to be 7 public servants, you want to be altruistic, it's 8 O.K., work for the Legislature. 9 I can not now, given this recent 10 history, say to these individuals, Don't worry 11 about it, next year this happens you'll get 12 paid. I can't say that. If we pass this budget 13 language, again saying that this will be a 14 recurring incident that these hard working 15 staffs may not get paid not only next week but 16 maybe not next year, how are we going to hire 17 these exceptional individuals? 18 I think we're arrogant if we 19 think we can exist with mediocre staff. We are 20 as good as our staff and, if we cannot hire the 21 best and the brightest, we're not just hurting 22 the individuals today we can't pay, we're 23 hurting the institution, this great institution 5305 1 called the state Senate. 2 Let's reflect. We will pay the 3 price in the long run if we don't reverse this 4 decision. 5 Thank you. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 7 will read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 14 the results. 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 Chair recognizes Senator Bruno. 19 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 20 can we now call up Calendar Number 609. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will read Calendar Number 609. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5306 1 609, Budget Bill, Senate Print 4476, an act 2 making appropriation for the support of 3 government. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 16 can we now call up Calendar Number 610. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 18 will read Calendar Number 610. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 610, Budget Bill, Senate Print 4477, an act to 21 provide for payments to municipalities and 22 providers of medical services. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5307 1 will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 12 can we now take up Calendar Number 611. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read Calendar Number 611. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 611, Budget Bill, Senate Print 4478, an act to 17 provide for payments to vendors under the Women, 18 Infants and Children's program. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5308 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 5 is passed. 6 Chair recognizes Senator Bruno. 7 SENATOR BRUNO: Could you 8 recognize Senator Stafford, please. 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you. 10 Thank you, Senator Bruno. 11 Mr. President, I would announce 12 that the Finance Committee meeting scheduled for 13 tomorrow at 11:00 will now be called from the 14 floor to take place in Room 332. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 16 Finance Committee scheduled for tomorrow morning 17 at 11:00 o'clock will be called off the floor 18 tomorrow. 19 Chair recognizes Senator Bruno. 20 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 21 are there any housekeeping items at the desk 22 that should be handled at this time? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's 5309 1 no housekeeping at the desk, Senator Bruno. 2 SENATOR BRUNO: That being the 3 case, Mr. President, there being no further 4 business to come before the Senate, I move that 5 we stand adjourned until tomorrow, May 2nd, at 6 11:00 a.m. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 8 objection, Senate stands adjourned until 9 tomorrow, May 2nd, at 11:00 a.m. 10 (Whereupon, at 7:00 p.m., the 11 Senate adjourned.) 12 13 14 15