Wednesday, June 28, 1995

10904 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 June 28, 1995 11 10:03 a.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President 19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 20 21 22 23 10905 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senate will come to order. Members please find 4 their chairs, staff their places. 5 Ask everybody in the chamber to 6 rise and say the Pledge of Allegiance to the 7 Flag. 8 (The assemblage repeated the 9 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 10 In the absence of clergy, may we 11 bow our heads in a moment of silence. 12 (A moment of silence was 13 observed. ) 14 Reading of the Journal. 15 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 16 Tuesday, June 27th. The Senate met pursuant to 17 adjournment, Senator Holland in the Chair upon 18 designation of the Temporary President. The 19 Journal of Monday, June 26th, was read and 20 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing 22 no objection, the Journal stands approved as 23 read. 10906 1 Presentation of petitions. 2 Messages from the Assembly. 3 Messages from the Governor. 4 Reports of standing committees. 5 Secretary will read. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno, 7 from the Committee on Rules, reports the 8 following bills: 9 Senate Print 15B, by Senator 10 Farley, an act to amend the Public Health Law, 11 in relation to creating a Health Care 12 Information Privacy Advisory Board; 13 32A, by Senator Holland, an act 14 to amend the Highway Law, in relation to 15 increasing bonded indebtedness; 16 5025, by Senator Goodman, an act 17 to amend the Tax Law and the Administrative Code 18 of the city of New York, in relation to 19 increasing the effectiveness and efficiency of 20 tax collection; 21 2302, by Senator Stavisky, an act 22 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to penalties 23 for criminal solicitation; 10907 1 4746A, by Senator Saland, an act 2 in relation to authorizing the city of Beacon, 3 county of Dutchess, to opt out of the 4 provisions; 5 5045A, by Senator Velella, an act 6 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 7 relation to authorizing a residential parking 8 system; 9 4827A, by Senator Maziarz, an act 10 to amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation 11 to the financing and construction of certain 12 facilities; 13 5403, by Senator Nozzolio, an act 14 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to estab 15 lishing the crime of aggravated harassment; 16 5447, by Senator Rath, an act to 17 amend the Executive Law, in relation to changing 18 the name of the Office for Regulatory and 19 Management Assistance; 20 5398, by Senator Goodman, an act 21 to amend the General Business Law, in relation 22 to delinquent accounts; 23 621, by Senator Stafford, an act 10908 1 to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in relation 2 to the assessment of private forest lands; 3 1094, by Senator Gonzalez, an act 4 to amend the Election Law, in relation to 5 imposing penalties; 6 3066B, by Senator Larkin, an act 7 to amend the General Obligations Law, in 8 relation to authorizing a charge of $20; 9 3197, by Senator LaValle, an act 10 to amend the Town Law, in relation to making 11 technical changes; 12 3215, by Senator Larkin, an act 13 to amend the Administrative Code of the city of 14 New York, in relation to the change of 15 retirement options; 16 3342A, by Senator Padavan, an act 17 to amend the Public Health Law, and the Family 18 Court Act, in relation to notice of abortions; 19 3377A, by Senator Seward, an act 20 to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation 21 to conflict of interest; 22 3484, by Senator Padavan, an act 23 in relation to the reduction of retirement 10909 1 benefits received by long-term New York City 2 employees; 3 3567, by Senator Larkin, an act 4 to permit Olaf Allen Takvam to revoke a previous 5 election of death benefit coverage; 6 3789A, by Senator Larkin, an act 7 to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in relation 8 to making technical and clarifying amendments; 9 4113B, by Senator Velella, an act 10 to amend the General Business Law, the Public 11 Health Law and the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 12 relation to safety requirements; 13 4183C, by Senator Skelos, an act 14 to amend the General Business Law, and the State 15 Finance Law, in relation to the licensing of 16 executive protection specialists; 17 4202, by Senator Spano, an act to 18 provide permanent competitive civil service 19 status as police officers; 20 4254, by Senator Larkin, an act 21 to authorize the town of Cornwall to discontinue 22 certain park land; 23 4320, by Senator Skelos, an act 10910 1 to amend the Retirement and Social Security Law, 2 in relation to the retirement of supervising 3 fire inspectors; 4 4379A, by Senator Spano, an act 5 to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in relation 6 to the powers of certain special patrolmen; 7 4466A, by Senator Larkin, an act 8 to incorporate the voluntary and exempt fire 9 men's benevolent association of Coldenham, Inc.; 10 4490, by Senator Libous, an act 11 to amend the Mental Hygiene Law, in relation to 12 disclosure by members; 13 4636A, by Senator Maltese, an act 14 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 15 authorizing a sentence of community service; 16 4696A, by Senator Skelos, an act 17 to amend the Retirement and Social Security Law, 18 in relation to the retirement of ambulance 19 medical technicians; 20 4714, by Senator Velella, an act 21 to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 22 obtaining nationwide criminal history checks; 23 4753, by Senator Padavan, an act 10911 1 to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation 2 to providing coverage; 3 4882A, by Senator Larkin, an act 4 to amend the Real Property Tax Law, and Chapter 5 602 of the Laws of 1993; 6 5086A, by Senator Kuhl, an act to 7 amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in 8 relation to transportation and storage of 9 pasteurized milk; 10 5105A, by Senator Saland, an act 11 to amend the Uniform City Court Act, in relation 12 to the City Court of the city of Poughkeepsie; 13 5251A, by Senator Stafford, an 14 act to validate, ratify and confirm certain 15 proceedings; 16 5294, by Senator Rath, an act to 17 authorize Judith E. Fillinger, employed by the 18 county of Erie, as a program analyst; 19 5378, by Senator Lack, an act to 20 amend the State Finance Law, in relation to 21 court facilities; 22 5384A, by Senator Lack, an act to 23 amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law, in 10912 1 relation to storage of alcoholic beverages; 2 5431, by Senator Velella, an act 3 to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 4 clarifying and revising liability insurance 5 requirements; 6 5433, by Senator Lack, an act to 7 authorize the State University of New York to 8 convey certain parcels; 9 5473, by Senator Hoblock, an act 10 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 11 relation to authorizing a residential parking 12 permit system in the city of Albany; 13 5479, by Senator Volker, an act 14 to enact the Persistent Child Predator Act; 15 5480, by Senator Tully, an act to 16 amend the Environmental Conservation Law, in 17 relation to sanctions; 18 5491, by Senator Volker, an act 19 to amend Chapter 737 of the Laws of 1994; 20 5494, by Senator Volker, an act 21 to amend the Criminal Procedure Law and the 22 Public Authorities Law, in relation to peace 23 officer status; 10913 1 5497A, by Senator DeFrancisco, an 2 act authorizing the establishment of the 3 Northern Onondaga Public Library District; 4 5499, by Senator Volker, an act 5 to amend the Criminal Procedure Law Reform Act 6 of 1995; 7 5504, by Senator Volker, an act 8 to amend the Public Authorities Law and the 9 Executive Law, in relation to the creation of 10 the Livingston County Sewer and Water Authority; 11 5505, by Senator Holland, an act 12 to amend a chapter of the laws of 1995 as 13 proposed in Legislative Bill Number A. 6516; 14 5507, by Senator Stafford, an act 15 to authorize the Commissioner of Environmental 16 Conservation; 17 5517, by Senator DiCarlo, an act 18 to amend the Tax Law and Chapter 190 of the Laws 19 of 1990; 20 5520, by Senator Spano, an act in 21 relation to establishing a public work enforce 22 ment fund; 23 5522, by Senator Goodman, an act 10914 1 authorizing the Dormitory Authority of the state 2 of New York to plan, design and acquire; 3 5523, by Senator Goodman, an act 4 to amend Chapter 54 of the Laws of 1995, 5 enacting the Capital Projects Budget; 6 5525, by Senator Skelos, an act 7 to amend Chapter 704 of the Laws of 1991, amend 8 ing the Arts and Cultural Affairs Law; 9 5541, by Senator Bruno, an act to 10 amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation to 11 the Saratoga County Water Authority; and 12 5296, by Senator Abate, an act to 13 amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to 14 authorizing the Crime Victims Board to make 15 limited awards. 16 All bills ordered directly for 17 third reading. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 19 objection, all bills are referred directly to 20 third reading. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Move we adopt. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 23 to adopt the report of the Rules Committee. All 10915 1 those in favor signify by saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye.") 3 Opposed nay. 4 (There was no response. ) 5 The Rules report is adopted. The 6 bills are ordered directly to third reading. 7 Reports from select committees. 8 Communications and reports from 9 state officers. 10 Motions and resolutions. 11 Senator Farley. 12 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr. 13 President. 14 On behalf of Senator Johnson, I 15 wish to call up his bill, 4469, which was 16 recalled from the Assembly which is now at the 17 desk. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 19 will read the title. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 831, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 4469, an 22 act to amend the Election Law, in relation to 23 the transmitting of certain information. 10916 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Farley. 3 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President, I 4 now move to reconsider the vote by which this 5 bill passed. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 7 will call the roll on reconsideration. 8 (The Secretary called the roll on 9 reconsideration. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38. 11 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President, I 12 now wish to recommit that bill. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: That bill 14 is recommitted. 15 Senator Farley. 16 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of 17 Senator Goodman, I wish to call up his bill, 18 Senate Print 5389, which was recalled from the 19 Assembly which is now at the desk. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 21 will read the title. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 1424, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5389, an 10917 1 act to authorize the conveyance of certain 2 lands. 3 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President, I 4 now move to reconsider the vote by which the 5 bill passed. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 7 to reconsider the vote by which the bill passed 8 the house. Secretary will call the roll on 9 reconsideration. 10 (The Secretary called the roll on 11 reconsideration. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38. 13 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President, I 14 now offer the following amendments to that bill. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 16 Amendments are received and adopted. 17 Senator Farley. 18 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of 19 Senator Hoblock, I wish to call up his bill, 20 3230, which having passed both houses and was 21 not delivered to the Governor. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the title. 10918 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 375, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 3230, an 3 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to 4 the board of education of the city of Albany. 5 SENATOR FARLEY: I now move to 6 reconsider the vote by which this bill was 7 passed, and I ask that the bill be restored to 8 the order of third reading. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will call the roll on reconsideration. 11 (The Secretary called the roll on 12 reconsideration. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38. 14 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President, I 15 now offer up the following amendments to Senator 16 Hoblock's bill. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Bill is 18 restored to third reading calendar. Amendments 19 are received and adopted. 20 Senator Farley. 21 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President, 22 on behalf of Senator Goodman, I wish to call up 23 his bill, Print 4002, which was recalled from 10919 1 the Assembly which is now at the desk. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read the title. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 936, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 4002, an 6 act to amend the Public Buildings Law, in 7 relation to deleting the value of limitation. 8 SENATOR FARLEY: I now move to 9 reconsider the vote by which this bill passed. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will call the roll on reconsideration. 12 (The Secretary called the roll on 13 reconsideration. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38. 15 SENATOR FARLEY: I now offer the 16 following amendments. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 18 Amendments are received and adopted. 19 Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 21 move we adopt the Resolution Calendar. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 23 to adopt the Resolution Calendar. All those in 10920 1 favor signify by saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye.") 3 Opposed nay. 4 (There was no response. ) 5 The Resolution Calendar is 6 adopted. 7 Senator Skelos, we have some 8 substitutions at the desk. If it's all right, 9 we could take those now. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you make 11 the substitutions, please. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 13 will read. 14 THE SECRETARY: On page 4, 15 Senator Kuhl moves to discharge from the 16 Committee on Rules Assembly Bill Number 2230B, 17 and substitute it for the identical Calendar 18 Number 61. 19 On page 4, Senator Marchi moves 20 to discharge from the Committee on Rules 21 Assembly Bill Number 4120A, and substitute it 22 for the identical Calendar Number 165. 23 On page 5, Senator Skelos moves 10921 1 to discharge from the Committee on Rules 2 Assembly Bill Number 6488C, and substitute it 3 for the identical Calendar Number 564. 4 On page 5, Senator Levy moves to 5 discharge from the Committee on Rules Assembly 6 Bill Number 7896A, and substitute it for the 7 identical Calendar Number 583. 8 And on page 7, Senator Maltese 9 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 10 Assembly Bill Number 5329B, and substitute it 11 for the identical Calendar Number 1445. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 13 Substitutions are ordered. 14 Senator Skelos, that brings us to 15 the calendar. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 17 if we could take up the non-controversial 18 calendar, please. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will read the non-controversial Calendar Number 21 61. 22 THE SECRETARY: On page 4, 23 Calendar Number 61, substituted earlier today, 10922 1 by member of the Assembly Parment, Assembly Bill 2 Number 2230B, an act to amend the Agriculture 3 and Markets Law and the Environmental 4 Conservation Law, in relation to the siting of 5 solid waste management facilities. 6 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 7 aside. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 9 bill aside. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 165, by member of the Assembly Connelly, 12 Assembly Print Number 4120A, substituted earlier 13 today, an act to amend the Public Authorities 14 Law, in relation to and for the purpose of 15 enabling the Dormitory Authority. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 17 will read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 (Pause) 10923 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 2 will read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 9 the results when tabulated. 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31, nays 11 one, Senator DiCarlo recorded in the negative. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 564, by member of the Assembly Becker, Assembly 16 Bill Number 6488C, substituted earlier today, an 17 act to amend the Nassau County Civil Divisions 18 Act, in relation to the volunteer and exempt 19 Firemen's Benevolent Association of Lynbrook, 20 New York. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10924 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 3 roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 41. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 7 is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 583, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, 10 Assembly Bill Number 7896A, substituted earlier 11 today. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay aside. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 14 bill aside. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 1445, by member of the Assembly McLaughlin, 17 Assembly Bill Number 5329B, substituted earlier 18 today, an act to amend the Penal Law, in 19 relation to false reporting of incidents. 20 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 21 aside. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 23 bill aside. 10925 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1477, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, 3 Assembly Bill Number 7825, substituted earlier 4 today, an act to amend the Surrogate's Court 5 Procedure Act, in relation to the appointment of 6 a guardian ad litem. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 41. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 1491, by Senator Libous, Senate Print 5441, an 19 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law and the 20 Mental Hygiene Law, in relation to providing 21 criminal history records. 22 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay aside. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 10926 1 bill aside. 2 Senator Skelos. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 4 would you call up Calendar Number 1445, by 5 Senator Maltese. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 7 will read Calendar Number 1445. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 1445, by member of the Assembly McLaughlin, 10 Assembly Print 5329B, an act to amend the Penal 11 Law, in relation to false reporting of 12 incidents. 13 SENATOR ONORATO: Explanation. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Could we have 15 an explanation, Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 17 will read the last section. 18 Senator Maltese, an explanation 19 of Calendar Number 1445 has been asked for by 20 Senator Dollinger. 21 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes, Mr. 22 President. 23 This section basically increases 10927 1 the penalty for the false reporting of an 2 incident. The -- it specifically applies to 3 members of the volunteer firefighting units, 4 fire department, the fire companies, the fire 5 units or the volunteer ambulance corps, 6 volunteer ambulance workers. 7 It requires that if they would 8 suffer serious physical injury or be killed 9 traveling to or returning from a firehouse, a 10 police station or other quarters. This specific 11 section has been amended from a prior bill that 12 did not include the returning to a firehouse, 13 police station or the facilities from whence 14 they came. 15 The reason that this was added is 16 so that it would exclude, for instance, when the 17 emergency vehicle was not on its way to or from 18 an emergency rather than merely proceeding on 19 some non-emergency trip. 20 The reporting -- the false 21 reporting of incidents has become a very serious 22 situation especially in the city of New York 23 where the workers or others are seriously 10928 1 injured or killed when these emergency vehicles 2 are -- are responding to an incident as a result 3 of a false alarm. The definitions include the 4 definition of emergency vehicles and 5 specifically in the case which groups would be 6 covered by this specific legislation. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Dollinger. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 10 President, would the sponsor yield to a 11 question? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Maltese, do you yield to a question from Senator 14 Dollinger. 15 SENATOR MALTESE: Sure. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Does this 17 legislation, in any way, affect the reporting of 18 bomb threats? 19 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President, 20 no, this is not that type of legislation. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Another 22 question, Mr. President, if the sponsor would 23 yield. 10929 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Continue 2 to yield, Senator Maltese? 3 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 yields. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Isn't it a 7 fact that, under state law, the false reporting 8 of a bomb threat is about one year -- a one-year 9 sentence of imprisonment and that, under federal 10 law, if you call in a bomb threat to a federal 11 building, the penalty is five times as great? 12 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President, 13 I was not aware of that startling revelation. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, Mr. 15 President, if the sponsor would yield to another 16 question. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Maltese, you continue to yield? 19 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 continues to yield. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 23 President, I would ask that this be laid aside 10930 1 so I could present an amendment -- it's 2 sponsored by about 14 Senators -- that would 3 increase the penalty for false reporting of a 4 bomb threat to a state building, increase the 5 penalty much like your bill would increase the 6 penalty for false reporting and make it 7 aggravated false reporting of an incident, 8 increase the penalties, give our prosecutors the 9 power to increase the penalties for false 10 reporting of incidents. That would be a false 11 fire alarm or police alarm. 12 My bill would have the effect of 13 quintupling the penalty in New York State for 14 false reporting of a bomb scare. It's really a 15 bill that came out of the wake of the Oklahoma 16 affair when there were bomb scares, a number of 17 them in the Federal Building in Rochester and 18 also in the state buildings in Rochester where 19 buildings had to be closed, they had to be 20 evacuated, and it would seem to me that that 21 would send a strong message to people of this 22 state that false reporting of incidents, both 23 fire incidents and police incidents but a bomb 10931 1 threat where they clear out the building, and 2 the potential for a bomb threat, it seems to me 3 that would serve the goal that you seek and 4 expand the penalties for the false reporting of 5 a bomb threat. 6 I'd ask the Senator if he would 7 just entertain an amendment which would include 8 my bill. I'll be glad to make it available to 9 you. I didn't know this bill was coming to the 10 floor today, so that we could send a message not 11 only those who falsely report fire alarms and 12 police alarms but those who falsely report bomb 13 threats that require the evacuation of our state 14 buildings, that we're not going to be any more 15 tolerant of that than the federal level. 16 Would you entertain such an 17 amendment to the bill? 18 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President, 19 as my good colleague, Senator Dollinger, knows, 20 we're speedily racing toward a deliberate 21 adjournment, and the time is very short. His 22 legislation seems to have a most salutory 23 purpose, and I would be glad, on the advent of a 10932 1 new session, to join him in that legislation, to 2 have similar legislation with relation to 3 placing a false bombs, bombs that are fixed to 4 appear like a bomb but have no -- no mechanisms 5 and would not ultimately result in any type of 6 an explosion, but I don't believe that this 7 specific legislation is the vehicle by which we 8 can add those sections to this legislation. 9 I don't think this perhaps is the 10 time to do that, but I certainly would join 11 Senator Dollinger in his legislation at a more 12 appropriate time. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 14 President, I appreciate the sponsor's comments. 15 I understand that we are winding our way down 16 here to a conclusion. Unfortunately, often 17 times I don't get a chance to know what bills 18 are going to come from the floor. When we make 19 requests for bills to come out of committee, we 20 don't know whether they're going to come out 21 and, consequently, you can understand our 22 position, where if we don't know what's going to 23 happen on the floor, what bills are finally 10933 1 going to hit the passage point, and I appreciate 2 your bill and we've looked at your bill that 3 deals with the false placing of a bomb-like 4 device that requires the police to come in and 5 bring out the dogs and evacuate the building. I 6 support that bill as well. 7 It just seems to me that a 8 comprehensive approach to trying to send the 9 right message to people who are taking advantage 10 of the police, taking advantage of the public, 11 taking advantage of the firefighters, it seems 12 to me that we can send a comprehensive message 13 by including your bill with respect to the false 14 placing, and our bill with respect to the false 15 reporting of the bomb threat and this bill which 16 I think is also a good bill that does something 17 effective as well. 18 If we're trying to get a message 19 out to people of this state that these are no 20 longer childish pranks, these are no longer 21 boyish pranks, girlish planks, these are no 22 longer things that you do for fun in the middle 23 of the summer so that you see the police and the 10934 1 firemen come and stick around your neighborhood 2 for a matter of a couple hours, these are far 3 more serious things. They are resulting in 4 injuries. 5 Your bill properly points that 6 out, but I would just encourage you, if it's 7 possible, to entertain this amendment. Frankly, 8 we don't have it done yet, I don't believe, on 9 this side yesterday, but it seems to me that we 10 should be sending a comprehensive message about 11 how we deal with the problem that you really 12 properly point out, which is the dangers created 13 when people play around with the telephone and 14 falsely report incidents. 15 So I don't believe we have the 16 amendment ready at this point, but I'd look 17 forward to your support next year. Maybe we can 18 put your bill, my bill together, take it to the 19 other house and get the whole package done. 20 It's something that's long overdue. We need to 21 send a powerful message, and I'll be reporting 22 in favor of this bill, Mr. President. 23 It's a good start. I hope we can 10935 1 do more. I think we can do more. I wanted to 2 do it today, but if we can do it next year, that 3 will be fine. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect on the first day of 8 November. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 Senator Skelos. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Skelos. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you please 20 lay aside Senator Libous' bill, 1491, for the 21 day. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar 23 Number 1491 will be laid aside for the day. 10936 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Your bill, 2 Calendar Number 61, we're laying aside 3 temporarily, some questions to be asked, so at 4 this time if we can take up Senate Supplemental 5 Calendar Number 1, non-controversial. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 7 will read Senate Supplemental Calendar Number 1 8 non-controversial. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley 10 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 11 Assembly Bill Number 161A, and substitute it for 12 the identical Calendar Number 416. 13 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay aside. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 15 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read 16 the title. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 416, by member of the Assembly Feldman, Assembly 19 Print 161A, an act to amend the Public Health 20 Law, in relation to creating a Health Care 21 Information Privacy Advisory Board. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 23 bill aside. 10937 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 565, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 32A, an 3 act to amend the Highway Law, in relation to 4 increasing bonded indebtedness in the town of 5 Ramapo, Rockland County. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 7 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 8 read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 942, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5025, an 19 act to amend the Tax Law and the Administrative 20 Code of the city of New York. 21 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay aside. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 23 bill aside. 10938 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1089, by Senator Stavisky, Senate Print 2302, an 3 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 4 penalties for criminal solicitation. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6 will read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 8 act shall take effect on the first day of 9 November. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 bill's passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1259, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 4746A, an 18 act in relation to authorizing the city of 19 Beacon, county of Dutchess, to opt out of the 20 provisions of Chapter 602. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10939 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 3 roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 7 is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 1312, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 5045A, an 10 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 11 relation to authorizing a residential parking 12 system in the village of Pelham. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 14 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 15 read the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 23 is passed. 10940 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar - 2 Senator Maziarz moves to discharge from the 3 Committee on Rules Assembly Bill Number 7610A, 4 and substitute it for the identical Calendar 5 Number 1416. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 7 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read 8 the title. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 1416, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, 11 Assembly Print Number 7610A, an act to amend the 12 Public Authorities Law, in relation to financing 13 and construction of certain facilities. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will read the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 23 is passed. 10941 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1428, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 5403. 3 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay aside. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 5 bill aside. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1433, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 5447, an act 8 to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 9 changing the name of the Office for Regula... 10 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay aside. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 12 bill aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman 14 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 15 Assembly Bill Number 5950A, and substitute it 16 for the identical Calendar Number 1457. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 18 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read 19 the title. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 1457, by member of the Assembly Eve, Assembly 22 Print Number 5950A, an act to amend - 23 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay aside. 10942 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 2 bill aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 1495, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 621, an 5 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in 6 relation to the assessment of private forest 7 lands. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 9 will read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1496, by Senator Gonzalez, Senate Print 1094, an 20 act to amend the Election Law, in relation to 21 imposing penalties for inducing a person to be a 22 candidate for election. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10943 1 will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect on the first day of 4 November. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 10 is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1497, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 3066B, an 13 act to amend the General Obligations Law, in 14 relation to authorizing a charge of $20 for 15 unpaid or dishonored checks or drafts. 16 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay aside. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 18 bill aside. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle 20 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 21 Assembly Bill Number 5480, and substitute it for 22 the identical Calendar Number 1498. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 10944 1 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read 2 the title. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 1498, by member of the Assembly McGee, Assembly 5 Print Number 5480, an act to amend the Town Law, 6 in relation to making technical changes. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 1499, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 3215, an 19 act to amend the Administrative Code of the city 20 of New York, in relation to the change of 21 retirement options. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 23 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 10945 1 read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 Senator Dollinger, why do you 11 rise? 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. President, 13 just a point of order. Could somebody direct me 14 where the bills are located that we're doing. I 15 don't seem to have them on my desk. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: They're at the 17 front of your desk. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I've been to 19 the front of my desk and they're not there. 20 SENATOR JONES: This isn't the 21 bills; it's just the calendar. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 23 if we could stand at ease. 10946 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Senate will stand at ease. 3 (Whereupon at 10:39 a.m., the 4 Senate stood at ease until 10:55 a.m.) 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 7 will come to order. 8 Senator Skelos. 9 SENATOR SKELOS: If we could 10 continue with the Supplemental Calendar Number 11 1. I believe we're at Calendar Number 1500, 12 non-controversial. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Secretary will continue to call the 15 non-controversial calendar on Supplemental 16 Calendar 1, beginning at Calendar Number 1500, 17 by Senator Padavan. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1500, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 3342A. 20 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay aside. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 22 bill aside. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10947 1 1501, by Senator Seward. 2 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 4 bill aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 1502, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 3484, an 7 act in relation to the reduction of retirement 8 benefits. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 10 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 11 read the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 1503, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 3567, an 22 act to permit Olaf Allen Takvam to revoke a 23 previous election of death benefit coverage. 10948 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 2 will read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 10 is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1504, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print - 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside, 14 please. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 16 bill aside. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella 18 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 19 Assembly Bill Number 5954C, and substitute it 20 for the identical Calendar Number 1505. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 22 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read 23 the title. 10949 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1505, by member of the Assembly Kaufman, 3 Assembly Print Number 5954C, an act to amend the 4 General Business Law, the Public Health Law and 5 the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 8 bill aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 1506, by Senator Skelos. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Bill is 12 high. Lay the bill aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 1507, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 4202, an 15 act to permit -- to provide permanent 16 competitive civil service status as police 17 officers. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 19 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 20 read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10950 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1508, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 4254, an 8 act to authorize the town of Cornwall to 9 discontinue certain park lands. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 11 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 12 read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 bill's passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 1509, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 4320, an 23 act to amend the Retirement and Social Security 10951 1 Law, in relation to the retirement of 2 supervising fire inspectors. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 4 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 5 read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Skelos. 17 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you please 18 recognize Senator Present. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 20 recognizes Senator Present. 21 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 22 there will be an immediate meeting of the 23 Commerce, Economic Development and Small 10952 1 Business Committee in Room 332. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Immediate 3 meeting of the Commerce, Economic Development 4 and Small Business Committee in the Majority 5 Conference Room, Room 332. Immediate meeting of 6 the Commerce, Economic Development and Small 7 Business Committee in the Majority Conference 8 Room, Room 332. 9 Secretary will continue to call 10 the non-controversial calendar. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1510, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 4379A. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside, 14 please. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 16 bill aside. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 1511, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 4466A, an 19 act to incorporate the Volunteer and Exempt 20 Firemen's Benevolent Association of Coldenham, 21 Inc. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the last section. 10953 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 8 is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar - 10 Senator Libous moves to discharge from the 11 Committee on Rules Assembly Bill Number 6783, 12 and substitute it for the identical Calendar 13 Number 1512. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 15 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read 16 the title. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 1512, by member of the Assembly Brennan, 19 Assembly Print Number 6783, an act to amend the 20 Mental Hygiene Law, in relation to disclosure by 21 members, officers and employees. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the last section. 10954 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 bill's passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese 10 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 11 Assembly Bill Number 6561A, and substitute it 12 for the identical Calendar Number 1513. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 14 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read 15 the title. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1513, by member of the Assembly Katz, Assembly 18 Print Number 6561A, an act to amend the Penal 19 Law, in relation to authorizing a sentence of 20 community service. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 10955 1 act shall take effect on the first day of 2 November. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 8 is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 1514, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print Number 11 4696A, an act to amend the Retirement and Social 12 Security Law, in relation to the retirement of 13 ambulance medical technicians in the county of 14 Nassau. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 16 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 17 read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 19 act shall take effect January 1st. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 10956 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 2 is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 1515, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 4714, an 5 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 6 obtaining nationwide criminal history checks. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect 60 days after it shall 11 have become law. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 bill's passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1516, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 4753, an 20 act to amend the General Municipal Law, in 21 relation to providing coverage for injuries 22 sustained. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10957 1 will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect January 1st. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1517, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 4882A, an 12 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law and 13 Chapter 602 of the Laws of 1993. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will read the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 24. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 23 is passed. 10958 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl 2 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 3 Assembly Bill Number 7645B, and substitute it 4 for the identical Calendar Number 1518. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 6 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read 7 the title. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 1518, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, 10 Assembly Print Number 7645B, an act to amend the 11 Agriculture and Markets Law, in relation to 12 transportation and storage of pasteurized milk. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10959 1 1519, by Senator Saland. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is high. Lay the bill aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1520, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 5251A, 6 an act to legalize, validate, ratify and confirm 7 certain proceedings. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 9 no home rule message at the desk. The bill will 10 be laid aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1521, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 5294, an act 13 to authorize Judith E. Fillinger, employed by 14 the county of Erie as a program analyst. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 16 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 17 read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 10960 1 the results when tabulated. 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47, nays 3 one, Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1522, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 5378. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay aside. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 10 bill aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1523, by Senator Lack. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Bill is 14 high. Lay the bill aside. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 1524, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 5431, an 17 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 18 clarifying and revising liability insurance 19 requirements. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside, 21 please. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 23 bill aside. 10961 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1525, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 5433, an act 3 to authorize the State University of New York. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay aside. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 6 bill aside. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 1526, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 5473, an 9 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 10 relation to authorizing a residential parking 11 permit system in the city of Albany. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 13 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 14 read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10962 1 1527, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5479. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 4 bill aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 1528, by Senator Tully, Senate Bill Number 7 5480. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay aside. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 10 bill aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1529, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5491. 13 SENATOR VOLKER: Lay aside. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 15 bill aside. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1530, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate 18 Print 5494. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 21 bill aside. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator 23 DeFrancisco moves to discharge from the 10963 1 Committee on Rules Assembly Bill Number 2070C, 2 and substitute it for the identical Calendar 3 Number 1531. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 5 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read 6 the title. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 1531, by member of the Assembly Bragman, 9 Assembly Print 2070C, an act authorizing the 10 establishment of the Northern Onondaga Public 11 Library District. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is high. Lay the bill aside. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 1532, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5499, an 16 act to enact the Criminal Procedure Law Reform 17 Act of 1995. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 20 bill aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker 22 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 23 Assembly Bill Number 8222, and substitute it for 10964 1 the identical Calendar Number 1533. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 3 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read 4 the title. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 1533, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, 7 Assembly Print Number 8222, an act to amend the 8 Public Authorities Law and the Executive Law, in 9 relation to the creation of the Livingston 10 County Water and Sewer Authority. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 14 act shall take effect on the same date as a 15 chapter of the laws of 1995. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 21 is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Holland 23 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 10965 1 Assembly Bill Number 8186, and substitute it for 2 the identical Calendar Number 1534. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 4 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read 5 the title. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1534, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, 8 Assembly Print Number 8186, an act to amend a 9 chapter of the laws of 1995 as proposed in 10 Legislative Bill Number Assembly 6516. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 1535, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 5507, an 23 act to authorize the Commissioner of 10966 1 Environmental Conservation to contract with 2 Sagamore Institute. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4 will read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 12 is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 1536, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 5517, an 15 act to amend the Tax Law and Chapter 190 of the 16 Laws of 1990, amending the Business Corporation 17 Law. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 20 bill aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano 22 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 23 Assembly Bill Number 7975A and substitute it for 10967 1 the identical Calendar Number 1537. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 3 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read 4 the title. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 1537, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, 7 Assembly Print Number 7975A, an act in relation 8 to establishing a Public Work Enforcement Fund. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 1538, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5522, an 21 act authorizing the Dormitory Authority of the 22 state of New York to plan, design and acquire a 23 facility. 10968 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 3 bill aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1539, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5523, an 6 act to amend Chapter 54 of the Laws of 1995, 7 enacting the Capital Projects Budget. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 10 bill aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1540, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 5525, an 13 act to amend Chapter 704 of the Laws of 1991 14 amending the Arts and Cultural Affairs Law. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 16 will read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act - 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 21 bill aside. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 1541, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 5541. 10969 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Bill is 2 high. Lay the bill aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate 4 moves to discharge the Committee on Rules from 5 Assembly Bill Number 8102 and substitute it for 6 the identical Calendar Number 1542. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 8 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read 9 the title. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1542, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, 12 Assembly Print Number 8102, an act to amend the 13 Executive Law, in relation to authorizing Crime 14 Victims Board. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 16 will read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 10970 1 is passed. 2 Senator Skelos, that completes 3 the non-controversial calendar. 4 The Secretary informs me that the 5 home rule message has arrived on Calendar Number 6 1520 which was laid aside for the reason there 7 was no home rule message. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you please 9 call up Calendar Number 1520. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read the title of Calendar Number 1520. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 1520, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 5251A, 14 an act to legalize, validate, ratify and confirm 15 certain proceedings. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 17 home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 18 read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10971 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 Senator Skelos. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 6 at this time on the first calendar, Calendar 7 Number 61, by Senator Kuhl, if we could call 8 that up, please, Senator Leichter is now here. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 10 return to the first calendar of the day, 11 Calendar Number 61 and we'll ask the Secretary 12 to read the title of Calendar Number 61. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 61, substituted earlier today, by member of the 15 Assembly Parment, Assembly Print Number 2230B, 16 an act to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law 17 and the Environmental Conservation Law, in 18 relation to the siting of solid waste manage 19 ment facilities. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Can we have an 21 explanation, please. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator Kuhl, an explanation has been asked for 10972 1 by Senator Stachowski. Senator Kuhl. 2 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, Mr. 3 President. 4 This is a bill that has seen this 5 house before, although in a slightly different 6 form. The concept is essentially the same. 7 One of the underlying fundament 8 als that was adopted by this Legislature many 9 years ago was the basic policy that was meant to 10 try to encourage the development of agriculture 11 in the state of New York. As a result of that, 12 we have done a number of things to try to 13 encourage that industry, and this is another 14 bill which is meant to do that same thing and 15 that is to preserve viable currently being 16 worked farm land in the state of New York. 17 This is a bill that would 18 essentially prohibit the siting, I should say 19 prohibit the involuntary siting of landfill - 20 landfill/solid waste kinds of development in 21 currently working farm land. 22 The bill has passed the 23 Assembly. It had -- it has this year -- it was 10973 1 substituted earlier today. I fully expect that 2 it will be signed by the Governor because all 3 parties to the legislative process have been 4 involved in the development of this particular 5 bill. 6 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Mr. 7 President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Senator Oppenheimer. 10 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: If you 11 would yield for a question, Senator Kuhl. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Senator Kuhl, do you yield to a question from 14 Senator Oppenheimer? 15 SENATOR KUHL: I'd be happy to 16 yield to Senator Oppenheimer. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Senator Oppenheimer, the Senator is happy to 19 yield. 20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Can you 21 tell us what the change is. We're trying to 22 figure it out here from everybody. We would ask 23 you to explain that to us, because we believe 10974 1 the environmental groups are now essentially 2 supporting this, and we want to know what that 3 change is. 4 SENATOR KUHL: You're asking for 5 -- excuse me, Senator Oppenheimer. You're 6 asking for some of the changes in the "B" print 7 from the previous print. All right. There - 8 if you want to pull up the bill and take a look 9 at the bill -- do you have it in front of you? 10 If you'd look, oh, let me see, on 11 the "B" print -- if you'd look at the "B" print, 12 on line 5, after the word "district" there was 13 previously language, about eight words, that 14 read "*** and receiving an agricultural 15 assessment pursuant to this article." That line 16 was eliminated. 17 You then go down to line 24 - 18 excuse me, line 23, and you find the words 19 "solid waste transfer station". After that, 20 the language "*** for land -- or land upon which 21 sewage sludge is applied," was added, that 22 phrase, "*** or land upon which sewage sludge is 23 applied." That was added. 10975 1 Then the only other change was on 2 the second page, that same phrase was added down 3 on line, I believe it's 34 -- it's above that - 4 28 -- on line 28. That's -- you can see after 5 the word "again," the words, "solid waste 6 transfer station," the phrase "or land upon 7 which sewage sludge is applied" was added. 8 That's basically, just 9 essentially technical amendments, some language 10 change meant to include one -- one little 11 different area, and that is certainly land 12 application area where there is sewage sludge 13 being applied. I believe that's the difference 14 in the bill. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 16 President. 17 Senator Oppenheimer, would you - 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Senator Leichter, why do you rise? 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, if 21 Senator Kuhl will yield, please. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator Kuhl, do you yield to Senator Leichter? 10976 1 SENATOR KUHL: Be happy to 2 yield. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Senator Kuhl yields. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 6 President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Can 8 we have some order in the house, please? Excuse 9 me, Senator Leichter. Thank you, Senator 10 Leichter. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 12 don't find your bill, because I have the "A" 13 print but somebody handed me what purports to be 14 a "B" print. Seems like it has a provision in 15 there, and on line 12, about the applicant for a 16 permit has made a commitment in the permit 17 application to fund a farm land protection 18 conservation easement within a reasonable 19 proximity to the proposed project in an amount 20 not less than the dollar value of any such farm 21 land purchased for the project. 22 Am I correct that that is also a 23 change? 10977 1 SENATOR KUHL: There is no change 2 between the "A" print and the "B" print in that 3 language. That language continues. That's in 4 the "B" print. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: That's -- and 6 you say that was in the "A" print. 7 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, that's in the 8 "A" print too. 9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Senator, I 10 have a question. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, can I 12 just finish, please? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Senator Kuhl, do you yield to a further 15 question? 16 SENATOR KUHL: Yes. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Senator yields. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 20 mean I have the "A" print. I don't find that 21 language in the "A" print. 22 SENATOR KUHL: The "A" print, the 23 "A" print. 10978 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Can you show 2 me where in the "A" print that language is? 3 SENATOR KUHL: Yeah, just to make 4 sure we're talking about the same bill, Senator, 5 the "A" print was printed on January 31st of 6 this year, at the top. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: The "A" print 8 says of January 17th. 9 SENATOR KUHL: I'm reading - 10 excuse me. I'm reading off the Assembly "A" 11 print. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Excuse me? 13 SENATOR KUHL: I'm reading off 14 the Assembly "A" print. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Oh, then that 16 may be the problem. I'm reading off the Senate 17 "A" print. Is the Senate -- is the Assembly 18 "A" print the same as -- as the Senate "B" 19 print? 20 SENATOR KUHL: With the exception 21 of the language that I referred to that was 22 added and that one phrase that was strucken in 23 response to Senator Oppenheimer's question. 10979 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: I see. I 2 see. I don't seem to have that bill, but just 3 working for a moment off your "B" print - 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Senator Kuhl, do you yield to a further 6 question? 7 SENATOR KUHL: I'd be happy to 8 yield. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 10 yields to a further question, Senator. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Now, am I 12 correct in understanding that even where the 13 owner of the agricultural lands does not consent 14 to that land being used for solid waste siting, 15 that if an application for a permit is made 16 which provides for an agricultural easement 17 within a reasonable proximity, that the solid 18 waste landfill siting can proceed? 19 SENATOR KUHL: Senator, you're 20 correct, that -- that is one of -- point that 21 you raise is one of the differences between the 22 bill that's before you this year and the bill 23 that was before you in years past. 10980 1 We've taken into consideration 2 places where there are currently landfill 3 operations being proposed and being worked 4 upon. This is not meant to prohibit the 5 continuation and actually the implementation of 6 those programs, and that's essentially what this 7 does. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Good. 9 Senator, if you'd be good enough to continue to 10 yield. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Senator Kuhl, do you continue to yield for a 13 question? 14 SENATOR KUHL: I'd be happy to. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Senator yields. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: How do you 18 define "reasonable proximity"; who is going to 19 make that determination? 20 SENATOR KUHL: Well, if we can't 21 come to an agreement on what that is amongst the 22 parties, obviously that would be defined by a 23 court. We're not intending that that be that 10981 1 way, but we're talking about situations that 2 maybe are 500, 1,000 feet, so we're not talking 3 several miles. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: So the intent 5 that you give that expression is that 6 "reasonable proximity" means really in very 7 close proximity. 8 SENATOR KUHL: Yes. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Senator Kuhl, will you yield for another 11 question? 12 SENATOR KUHL: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 14 yields, Senator. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Another change 16 that I have, Senator, at least between the 17 Senate "B" print and the Senate "A" print is 18 that there can be a taking if such agricultural 19 land that is taken constitutes less than five 20 percent of the projected site; is that correct 21 too? 22 SENATOR KUHL: That's correct. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: And that 10982 1 determination has to be made both by the 2 Commissioner of Environmental Conservation and 3 the Commissioner of Agriculture, is that 4 correct? 5 SENATOR KUHL: That's correct. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Just briefly 7 on the bill. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Senator Leichter, on the bill. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: And maybe it 11 could be in the nature of a question if Senator 12 Kuhl wants to address it. 13 Senator, I certainly share your 14 desire to keep as much agricultural land as we 15 possibly can in agricultural production or we 16 say for future agricultural production if it 17 isn't used presently. 18 I am, however, concerned that, in 19 some communities and localities, it's going to 20 be very difficult to find sites for waste 21 facilities for landfills and, as you know, those 22 are necessary. 23 I mean there's a lot of valuable 10983 1 land in this state other than for agricultural 2 purposes, land that's forests, lands that's near 3 lakes, land that has scenic value. On the other 4 hand, we have to deal with the problem of 5 disposing of solid waste in our society. 6 Are we really justified in just 7 taking agricultural land and say that we're 8 going to protect agricultural land or we're not 9 going to concern ourselves with these other 10 valuable lands? That's really my problem with 11 this bill. I mean I wish we didn't have all our 12 solid waste disposal, but we do and don't we 13 have a responsibility to the people of this 14 state to provide some means and some possible 15 potential for disposing of solid wastes 16 throughout the whole state, even if in some 17 instances it means taking agricultural land? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Senator Kuhl, did you wish to address that? 20 SENATOR KUHL: Yes. I think the 21 question is close, and I think Senator Leichter 22 deserves an honest and frank answer, and I'd 23 like to provide that because I think that I can 10984 1 belie some of his fears. 2 Senator, if you were to look at 3 the statistical information that is coming to us 4 relative to agriculture in the state of New 5 York, I think you would become very, very 6 concerned about the long-term viability of 7 agriculture in this state. We have, as you 8 know, 18 million people. They're certainly 9 dependent upon produce. If we don't do 10 something to try to maintain our base here, 11 we'll be totally at the whim of maybe foreign 12 countries, other states, and we won't be able to 13 produce for our own people. That's a great 14 concern and, number one, also, it's a great 15 concern that we don't have jobs for many of our 16 people who would like to be in them. 17 The statistics will show you that 18 the number of farms in this state has seriously 19 decreased, and that the -- in the last ten years 20 over a million acres have gone out of produc 21 tion. Now, this bill specifically deals only 22 with land that is currently under production. 23 That means there has to be some sort of a crop 10985 1 or something being planted and harvested. 2 There's a further condition that 3 you wouldn't know anything about necessarily 4 unless you were fully familiar with the new 5 assessment process that was created in the Ag 6 Districts Law that was passed by this 7 Legislature back in 1971, and that is for a 8 person to receive that assessment they have to 9 have been in existence and under production for 10 at least two years prior to that, and there has 11 to be, I believe it's an eight-year commitment 12 to continue in agriculture, so what we're 13 talking about here is that unique situation 14 where we have a municipal government who decides 15 for their own purposes just to come in and take 16 a farm from a farmer who wants to continue in 17 the farming business and we're simply saying 18 that, unless there's already a permit 19 application and the other kinds of situations, 20 the exemptions that are created, that you no 21 longer can do that because one of the things 22 that we're finding is that there is a, what we 23 call a critical mass to the via... economic 10986 1 viability of agriculture. 2 If you continue to pull out 3 little pieces of farms around the state, then 4 you end up with less property being actually 5 worked than will -- will continue the need for 6 secondary services that are provided to the 7 agricultural community, and all of a sudden you 8 start to see that little agribusiness that does 9 things like sell equipment, farm equipment, that 10 disappears and it goes some place else, and this 11 all kind of adds to a trend to essentially 12 unweave the fabric of the agricultural community 13 and dry it up, and that's what this bill is 14 meant to do and, for those existing plots out 15 there who are no longer in production, this bill 16 doesn't apply, so there are millions, literally 17 millions of acres of land that are available to 18 site solid waste landfill facilities that would 19 have absolutely nothing to do with agriculture, 20 but would -- and wouldn't threaten agriculture, 21 O.K., so what we're saying is there are many, 22 many other sites, many, many other acres or 23 possibilities, but just don't come in and 10987 1 destroy and take without the voluntary consent 2 of the landowner, a piece of property that might 3 totally undermine the agriculture in that area. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 5 if Senator Kuhl will yield to one more 6 question. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Senator Kuhl, will you yield to Senator 9 Leichter? 10 SENATOR KUHL: Be happy to. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Senator Kuhl yields. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator Kuhl, 14 I think you make very good sense, and I think I 15 understand the bill better now, and I think your 16 amendments make it less of a problem. 17 I just have one question. If 18 land -- agricultural land that's in an agricul 19 tural district is used solely for haying, 20 somebody goes in and mows it, is that considered 21 agricultural production? 22 SENATOR KUHL: If they're just 23 mowing it? 10988 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, all they 2 do. 3 SENATOR KUHL: You mean for 4 aesthetic purposes? 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Excuse me? 6 SENATOR KUHL: For aesthetic 7 purposes? 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: No, they go 9 and they cut the hay and sell it for whatever 10 the hay may be worth. 11 SENATOR KUHL: Then that would be 12 agricultural production, but there's another - 13 there are two -- two criteria to getting an ag' 14 district exemption. You also have to have a 15 gross dollar amount of production and so, if you 16 were just saying, going in and mowing it and 17 baling it and selling it and it was less than 18 say $10,000, they wouldn't qualify for the 19 exemption, and then the land wouldn't be exempt 20 under this bill, so this is not meant to allow 21 the so-called hobby farms that don't have an 22 agricultural component, I mean on a real 23 existence as far as the agricultural community, 10989 1 as far as being able to utilize this piece. It 2 has to be a viable commercial agricultural 3 business really to qualify for the ag' district 4 exemption. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. 7 I'm certainly satisfied. I think 8 I understand the bill much better, and I thank 9 Senator Kuhl for his explanation. Certainly we 10 understand that the reason that farming has 11 declined in this state is because of worldwide 12 forces and agricultural production that has 13 increased in so many parts of the world, but I 14 think it makes sense to say that, if we had a 15 farm that is indeed in agricultural production, 16 as Senator Kuhl explains it, is defined 17 according to law that that particular farm 18 should not be taken out of production, 19 particularly when you point out that there's a 20 lot of former agricultural land that should be 21 available. 22 I'm going to support the bill. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10990 1 Thank you. 2 Senator Oppenheimer. 3 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: This is an 4 observation, maybe a question to Senator Kuhl. 5 As I understand it, one of the changes is that 6 the -- the site for the -- the solid waste 7 facility would be 95 percent in non-agricultural 8 land and only five percent would be the taking 9 of the agricultural land that's under 10 production. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Senator Kuhl, I believe that was a question. 13 Will you yield to it? 14 SENATOR KUHL: I'd be happy to 15 yield. I think you're -- do you want to state 16 that again, Senator Oppenheimer. I don't know 17 as I heard it. 18 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Right here 19 it says - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Senator Oppenheimer, please. Thank you. 22 Senator? 23 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: -- the 10991 1 Commissioner will determine that the agricul 2 tural land to be taken constitutes less than 3 five percent of the project site, so the major 4 ity of this site would be in non-agricultural 5 land and only five percent would be taken that 6 would be farm land that was in production. 7 SENATOR KUHL: This, again, was 8 another one of those exceptions where we saw 9 that there might be, in the original bill, just 10 a true definition might not really take into 11 consideration some of the practical applications 12 so if you might have, for instance, a site that 13 would be -- let's say you're going to be a 14 hundred acres and say three acres of that might 15 just come into an ag' district area, O.K., that 16 would be an occasion which would be -- that 17 three acres would not be exempt under this bill, 18 that they would be able to take that because 19 it's such a small piece of the overall project 20 that we didn't want to undermine or jeopardize 21 the whole siting project because of those three 22 acres. 23 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Excellent. 10992 1 Thank you very much. On the bill. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Senator Oppenheimer, on the bill. 4 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I also will 5 be supporting this bill this year. It is a fine 6 line that we have to draw in this state. We 7 understand that agriculture is the primary 8 business of this state. It's the number one 9 item in our gross product, and we have to face 10 the fact that small farms are having difficulty 11 in a world of agroeconomics where the huge farms 12 seem to be taking over. 13 And so, in trying to find a 14 compromise I think this bill has done it, and I 15 will be supporting it. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Secretary will read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 19 act shall take effect January 1st. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Call the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 10993 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 2 bill is passed. 3 Senator Wright. 4 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, 5 can we now move to the Senate Supplemental 6 Calendar Number 1 and take up the controversial 7 calendar. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Can 9 we have -- Secretary will read. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 416, substituted earlier today by member of the 12 Assembly Feldman, Assembly Print Number 161A, an 13 act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation 14 to creating a Health Care Information Privacy 15 Advisory Board. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Senator Farley. 19 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr. 20 President. 21 This bill creates a temporary 22 expert advisory board within the Health 23 Department to advise and report to the 10994 1 Legislature and the Governor and the Health 2 Department and the Insurance Department on 3 issues involving health care data privacy. 4 The legislative finding states 5 it's computerization and changes in technology 6 made through health care delivery, but it may 7 also present new challenges to the protection of 8 personal privacy. This board will be comprised 9 of ten legislative and five gubernatorial 10 appointments with expertise in different medical 11 topics such as practice genetics, et cetera. 12 The bill passed the Assembly 13 unanimously back in 1994. In '95 it was 143 to 14 one over there. It was recalled and amended. 15 It would -- basically, this bill is supported by 16 the state Consumer Protection Board. 17 Is there any particulars that 18 you'd like to know about? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Senator Stachowski. 21 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: If Senator 22 Farley will yield to one question, please. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10995 1 Senator Farley, will you yield? 2 SENATOR FARLEY: I will be 3 delighted to yield. 4 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Can you tell 5 me the breakdown of those appointments? 6 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes, I think I 7 can. I gather you mean whom they're appointed 8 by. I understand what you're talking about. I 9 got to look at this. Ten from the Legislature. 10 I don't have that -- I can't find that 11 information at the moment, Senator. I'll be 12 happy to get back to you on it. 13 Page 2, that's where I'm 14 looking. Thank you. My good friend, here it 15 is. Thank you, Senator Present. Shall consist 16 of 15 members; three shall be appointed by the 17 Temporary President of the Senate, two by the 18 Minority Leader of the Senate, three by the 19 Speaker, two by the Minority Leader of the 20 house. 21 I knew that's what you were 22 driving at. That's always been my feeling that 23 they should do it that way, and five shall be 10996 1 pointed by the Governor. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Read the last section. 4 SENATOR FARLEY: Also for the 5 legislative intent, I want to note, want the 6 record to show, because it was asked me by 7 learned counsel on your side, that the intent of 8 this bill is that the Health Department only 9 make recommendations, and so the legislative 10 intent shall show that. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Read the last section, please. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Call the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 This bill is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 942, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5025, an 23 act to amend the Tax Law and the Administrative 10997 1 Code of the city of New York, in relation to 2 increasing the effectiveness and efficiency of 3 tax collection. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Senator Goodman, an explanation has been 7 requested. 8 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President, 9 this bill's purpose is to increase the 10 effectiveness and efficiency of tax collection 11 and administration of the Tax Department, whose 12 bill it is, by improving certain administrative 13 and supplemental collection divisions, to 14 discontinue the use of automotive fuel carrier 15 permits under Article 21 of the Tax Law, that's 16 the highway use tax, and to conform the state 17 and local personal income taxes to the federal 18 income tax division which allows a credit upon 19 repayment of same rate of income. 20 This is a very complex bill and 21 like Moby Dick, I could render an explanation on 22 three levels. I've just given you level one 23 which is the quickie. I could give you level 10998 1 two, which is the half hour version and level 3 2 which is the three-hour version, and I'm at your 3 disposal for whichever level you choose. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Senator Leichter, you rise at your own risk. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah, if 7 Senator Goodman will yield. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Senator Goodman, do you yield to a question? 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: I didn't want 11 to go into the post-graduate course on this 12 bill, Senator. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Senator yields. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: But let me 16 just ask you one question. Could you tell us 17 what the fiscal implications are, if any, with 18 this bill? Are we going to have any loss of 19 revenue as a consequence of this bill? 20 SENATOR GOODMAN: Senator, the 21 bill allows the Tax Department to focus on more 22 significant cases by allowing the Department to 23 abate small amounts of tax, and the cost of 10999 1 collection efforts would exceed the tax 2 collected. 3 There is no way in which, in an 4 ticipation of these actions, I could give you a 5 fiscal implication, but I think that the net of 6 this is clearly that the state stands to benefit 7 by virtue of improved tax administration. 8 Now, I might just add a couple of 9 other thoughts to this so that you'll have a 10 similar clear idea of the bill's overall scope. 11 It unifies the erroneous refund provisions 12 across all the taxes and provides a rational 13 structure for the imposition of interest. 14 It adopts the federal standard in 15 the area so that state and federal taxes are not 16 dealt with in a conflicting manner. Currently, 17 when the state issues an erroneous refund, it 18 may charge interest from the date issued. This 19 would allow interest only from the date that 20 they ask for the return of the erroneously 21 refunded money. 22 Tax Department personnel would be 23 allowed to vacate warrants which is to the 11000 1 taxpayer's benefit, by filing in the county 2 clerk's office rather than overburdening the 3 Attorney General's office, that when a taxpayer 4 check bounces, the Department may already have 5 issued a satisfaction piece. 6 This would allow them to work 40 7 rather than 20 days to issue the satisfaction 8 piece to assure that the check clears. If the 9 taxpayer needs the satisfaction piece sooner 10 than 40 days, they may still obtain it by paying 11 certified funds. 12 Divisions requiring fuel carriers 13 to have special permits, or in the fields, are 14 no longer necessary as an enforcement device and 15 are redundant with other permits. This would 16 also permit a claim of rights credit under the 17 state's personal income tax in those instances 18 where the taxpayer elected the term of right 19 credit under the federal income tax. 20 This would conform state law to 21 the federal so the taxpayer does not have to 22 file in two different manners for the same taxed 23 income, so I would summarize this by saying that 11001 1 on the one hand this seeks to be more user 2 friendly to the taxpayer while at the same time 3 providing a pragmatic approach to the collection 4 of taxes, so that the efforts of the Department 5 would be against the big liabilities rather than 6 the inconsequential ones in which cost of 7 collection can exceed the amount that's actually 8 collected. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 10 President. 11 SENATOR GOODMAN: There is a 12 slight revenue enhancement, I'm informed by 13 counsel, to the state, as the Tax Department 14 staff work on collecting the large bills rather 15 than the very small amounts which I think is 16 what I've already said, but statement is 17 reiterated. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Senator Goodman, will you yield to another 20 question by Senator Leichter? 21 SENATOR GOODMAN: Yes, I will 22 certainly. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11002 1 Senator yields. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 3 Goodman, you sort of made an analogy. You want 4 to be Moby Dick, I don't want to be Captain 5 Ahab. 6 SENATOR GOODMAN: Well, Ahab - 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: I know what 8 happened to Captain Ahab at the end. 9 SENATOR GOODMAN: And Moby Dick 10 is a whale, so the seafaring reference is quite 11 clear. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 13 know there's a provision in here that affects 14 the registration of the New York City income 15 tax. In regard to the -- to the city income 16 tax, the administration, has that provision been 17 cleared with the city of New York? 18 SENATOR GOODMAN: Yes, it has. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you. 20 SENATOR GOODMAN: Thank you, 21 Senator. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Secretary will read the last section. 11003 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 22. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Call the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 8 bill is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 1428, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 5403, an 11 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 12 establishing a crime of aggravated harassment. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator Nozzolio, Senator Paterson has asked for 16 an explanation. 17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. 19 Senator Paterson, this is a 20 measure that is identical to a measure that we 21 passed a few weeks ago that was enacted by this 22 body 52 to 1. It's a measure that basically 23 says those who are in prison and use their 11004 1 bodily fluids as a weapon and attack, assault 2 correction officers and other correctional 3 personnel would be guilty of a Class C felony. 4 One of the provisions that was 5 omitted from the original measure which was 6 passed by this house was a provision to require 7 a mandatory AIDS test for those who were 8 participating in this biopractice. That AIDS 9 test is no longer required by this bill, and we 10 are in negotiations with the Assembly. We are 11 close to reaching agreement and one of the 12 requirements of the Assembly was to eliminate 13 the mandatory AIDS test. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I had 15 a question about HIV testing. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Senator Nozzolio, do you -- do you yield to a 18 question? 19 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'd be honored 20 to yield to the distinguished Minority Leader. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Senator yields, Senator. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm very 11005 1 pleased, but Senator, I will have to tell you 2 that somehow psychicly you addressed my question 3 in your explanation, and your explanation is 4 quite satisfactory. 5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Secretary will read the last section. Quickly 8 before they have a question. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect on the first day of 11 November. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Call the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 17 bill is passed. 18 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: 19 Explanation. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: We 21 haven't read anything yet. What would you like 22 an explanation of? 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 11006 1 we just want to know why we're here. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: We 3 have to call the bill first, Senator, if you 4 just wait for one second. 5 Secretary will read. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 1433, by 7 Senator Rath, Senate Print 5447, an act to amend 8 the Executive Law, in relation to changing the 9 name of the Office for Regulatory and Manage 10 ment Assistance. 11 SENATOR RATH: Yes, the 12 explanation that's been asked for, probably 13 seems like a very familiar bill and although 14 this is a bill sponsored by the Governor, it's 15 identical to one that this body passed on July 16 -- pardon me, on June the 12th. That was an 17 extender for what we will hopefully be calling 18 the Governor's Office of Regulatory Reform and 19 it was for six years. 20 This bill in front of us changes 21 the name as that bill did from ORMA to the -- to 22 GORR, G-O-R-R, and extends it for two years 23 rather than six years. 11007 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Read the last section. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Senator Paterson. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 7 maybe I missed something. If the Senator would 8 yield for a question? 9 SENATOR RATH: Surely. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Senator Rath, do you yield? 12 SENATOR RATH: Yeah. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Senator yields. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, in 16 light of that, why are we changing the name? 17 SENATOR RATH: Yeah, in order to 18 reflect more clearly the role that regulation 19 reform is playing in the state right now. The 20 Governor has taken a very, very big interest in 21 it, and he has an office now that has that full 22 responsibility, and although many of the duties 23 will remain the same, identical, the extender 11008 1 does not change the duties of the office or the 2 responsibilities, and I think it's important 3 that we also recognize that by having this in 4 statute, that the Legislature then has an 5 opportunity to revisit the -- the office and its 6 responsibilities periodically through the 7 extension of the legislation, and that there's a 8 great deal of discussion continuing regarding 9 regulatory reform and, of course, the home of 10 that is in formerly ORMA, hopefully soon to be 11 called GORR. 12 SENATOR SOLOMON: Mr. President, 13 will Senator Rath yield? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator Solomon. Senator Rath? Senator 16 Solomon, she yields. 17 SENATOR RATH: Surely. 18 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, the 19 previous remarks, you had stated that we passed 20 the piece of legislation on June 12th which was 21 your bill which did exactly the same thing here 22 except we did it for six years, and now this 23 bill is going to do it for two years. 11009 1 Can you tell me what has 2 transpired in the last 15 days where we had to 3 go from six years to two years? 4 SENATOR RATH: It's the 5 Governor's request that we do this for two years 6 rather than six years. I think that was a 7 hopeful thing on June 12th that six years might 8 be an opportunity, but now the Governor says two 9 years is just fine with him. 10 SENATOR SOLOMON: (Gestures) 11 Thank you. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Read the last section, please. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Call the roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 21 bill is passed. 22 Senator Wright. 23 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, 11010 1 could we move to Calendar Number 1497, Senator 2 Larkin. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 The Secretary will read Calendar Number 5 1497. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 Larkin moves to discharge from the Committee on 8 Rules Assembly Bill Number 5384B, and substitute 9 it for the identical Calendar Number 1497. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Substitution ordered. Secretary will read. 12 SENATOR LARKIN: What this bill 13 does is - 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator Larkin, got to read it first. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1497, by member of the Assembly McLaughlin, 18 Assembly Print Number 5384B, an act to amend the 19 General Obligations Laws, in relation to 20 authorizing a charge of $20. 21 SENATOR LARKIN: Senator 22 Paterson, this bill provides any person to whom 23 you make a check, other than a cashier's check, 11011 1 money order or certified check is tendered, 2 which check is subsequently dishonored, may 3 collect a $20 fee from the party which issued 4 the check. 5 Right now we do it for consumer 6 accounts or your private accounts. All this 7 does is bring private accounts in line with what 8 is in existing law today. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Call the roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 18 bill is passed. 19 If we could just hold for one 20 second, please. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 22 are we -- are we in between bills? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11012 1 Yes, we are, Senator. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. Mr. 3 President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Senator Leichter. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Calendar 1409 7 which passed on a slow roll call on June 15th, I 8 was out of the chamber at that time. If I had 9 been in the chamber, would the record please 10 show I would have voted in the negative on 11 that. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 13 record will show that, had you been in the 14 chamber, Senator, you would have been in the 15 negative on that bill. 16 Secretary will read. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 1500, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print Number 19 3342A, an act to amend the Public Health Law and 20 Family Court Act, in relation to abortions 21 performed on unemancipated minors. 22 SENATOR ONORATO: Explanation. 23 11013 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Senator Padavan, an explanation has been asked 3 for by several Senators. 4 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you, 5 Senator. 6 The bill before us would require 7 parental notification in the case of any 8 abortion performed on a child under the age of 9 16. Notification would be to parents or 10 individual parent as the bill prescribes. 11 The proposed law has a judicial 12 bypass under the jurisdiction of the Family 13 Court. The bill precludes its application for 14 any emancipated minor. It provides a method for 15 parental responsibility, parental authority, 16 parental concern to be exercised when and where 17 appropriate. 18 In this state, we have a body of 19 law that relates to medical procedures performed 20 on minors. The law requires parental consent in 21 any type of surgery, tooth extraction, broken 22 limb, and we also know that in even unrelated 23 areas, unrelated to health care, parental 11014 1 consent is often required. A school trip 2 planned by an educational institution would 3 require, as most of us know as parents, a slip 4 to be signed giving permission. 5 It's an anomaly that, in an area 6 that is certainly a serious medically 7 significant intrusive surgery, that in this one 8 area not only is not consent required but not 9 even notification, and in the latter category 10 the bill before us would seek to ensure 11 notification. 12 We outline in the preamble of the 13 bill the reason why this is so important. 14 Certainly a young girl under the age of 16 at 15 this point in her life is undergoing emotional 16 trauma. I think that goes without saying. A 17 youngster of that age may not be familiar with 18 her own medical history so important to her 19 well-being when such a procedure is to be 20 undertaken. 21 The need for counseling, the need 22 for psychology or psychologists to be involved 23 certainly is something that we could acknowledge 11015 1 as a potential fact in many cases. But if the 2 parents don't know about it, don't know about 3 the pending abortion, don't know about after the 4 abortion, certainly, all of these things that we 5 as parents would be concerned about and want to 6 see happen can, in some instances, be 7 precluded. We think that's wrong. It's wrong 8 in a very substantive way, and we think 9 primarily of the well-being of the young girl 10 involved. 11 In terms of society, I think we 12 have an overriding responsibility to ensure that 13 parental responsibilities, parental obligations, 14 parental authority are given maximum opportunity 15 to be exercised, and I can think of no more 16 traumatic situation than a 13- or 14- or 17 15-year-old girl about to have an abortion and 18 parents not being able to provide the kinds of 19 support, the inputs needed and the oversight, I 20 think, so critical to ensuring that should an 21 abortion take place that it would be done 22 properly and with minimum negative impact. 23 So often we have read and learn 11016 1 from reports provided that teen-age abortions 2 are not a one-time event, regrettably, and it 3 would seem, I think, logical to me and I'm sure 4 to you that these children need help and the 5 best people to ensure that it be provided are 6 the parents or parent as the case may be, or 7 guardian, all of whom are prescribed for in the 8 bill. 9 Now, let me share with you just 10 one story, and then I will be happy to answer 11 any questions. Several years ago in my 12 district, in a community called Queens Village, 13 a 13-year-old girl, Dawn Ravenell, was taken by 14 an individual to an abortion clinic. During the 15 course of the abortion, serious complications 16 developed and the young girl was rushed to a 17 hospital. That night the parents received a 18 phone call from that hospital and they were told 19 that "Your daughter is here and she is in a 20 coma." 21 They rushed to the hospital and 22 that night Dawn Ravenell died. The parents were 23 here in Albany a couple years ago to discuss 11017 1 this legislation, and a reporter asked them a 2 very pointed question: "If you had known about 3 your daughter's situation, would you have 4 precluded an abortion?" Mrs. Ravenell answered 5 the question, I thought, in a way that I would 6 like to share with you. She said, "We would 7 have discussed it as a family, and we are a very 8 tight knit family, not a dysfunctional family, 9 and if we had decided in the best interests of 10 Dawn that an abortion was required or desirable, 11 we would have gone forward with it, but it would 12 have been in a hospital and our family physician 13 would have been involved and Dawn's medical 14 history would have been known, and she would be 15 alive today." 16 That, in a very real life story, 17 highlights why this bill is important. I don't 18 want to see any other Dawn Ravenells die in this 19 state. At the same time, I recognize that there 20 are situations that are different than that 21 family where there are dysfunctional families 22 where one or more parents cannot be involved and 23 the bill very carefully provides a bypass 11018 1 provision so that, in the event such a situation 2 does exist, the Family Court would have the full 3 authority to assume responsibility or to correct 4 whatever is appropriate in the court's view. 5 That, briefly, is the explanation 6 of the bill. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 8 Chair would just like to recognize Senator 9 Bruno. We would just say there's a list of 10 speakers up here. If you want to speak we will 11 put you on the list. It goes Senator Bruno, 12 Senators Paterson, Dollinger, Abate, Cook, 13 Oppenheimer, Marchi, Goodman, Spano and Maltese. 14 Senator Bruno. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I 16 stand and speak in favor of passage of this 17 parental notification bill, and I speak in favor 18 of passage because I think it's critically 19 important. 20 Senator Padavan said it as well 21 as anyone could say it describing very 22 specifically the critical need for parental 23 notification any time a young person under 16 is 11019 1 going to have something happen to that person 2 that could be life-threatening, especially if it 3 can be life-threatening. 4 The unfortunate part of this 5 issue is it gets very emotional, and there are 6 the pro-choice people and the pro-life people, 7 and it becomes a pro-life or a pro-choice 8 issue. It is not, Mr. President, in my mind, a 9 pro-choice or a pro-life issue, and I think it's 10 unfortunate for the public in New York State, 11 who overwhelmingly support parental 12 notification, that this becomes an issue of 13 pro-life or pro-choice. 14 This is an issue of parenting. 15 This is an issue of families, of relationships 16 between parents and their children. That's what 17 this issue is all about; and I, in my mind and 18 in my heart, find it hard to understand how 19 people can't recognize how critically important 20 it is that, if their child breaks their arm, 21 that they consent to having that arm set and 22 taken care of, and those same people who would 23 not have a doctor in a hospital touch their 11020 1 child would still feel that it's okay for that 2 child to be invaded, intruded upon in the most 3 private of ways without their knowledge or their 4 consent. 5 This bill has been modified from 6 age 18 to 16, from consent to notification. I 7 agree with the 82 percent of the people in New 8 York State that this bill should become law, and 9 I urge my colleagues to vote in favor. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Senator Paterson. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 13 President. 14 This is another very sensitive 15 issue, an issue that challenges our ability to 16 reason and understand and it certainly is one 17 that conflicts with our sense of values and our 18 purpose as legislators, and I can certainly 19 understand the prolonged discussion of this 20 bill. The last time it reached the floor of the 21 Senate was in 1977; and as long as anyone wants 22 to bring it up, I am willing to debate it. 23 But I think perhaps we can 11021 1 enlighten everyone to some basic issues that 2 arise when we discuss this bill. One is that we 3 already have written into our law the 4 opportunity for medical care to be provided for 5 younger people even though there is no parental 6 consent. It exists in the Public Health Law 7 under Section 2504, Subdivision 4, and it exists 8 in the Mental Hygiene Law, under Section 1211. 9 We also have a law that allows 10 for a woman to have an abortion. That is the 11 law of the land. If anyone doesn't like the law 12 of the land, they can seek to change it, and we 13 saw that happen earlier this year with the death 14 penalty, and I don't like the resolution of the 15 debate on the death penalty in the Legislature 16 this year, but I have to, as we all do in a 17 civilized society, live within the law of the 18 land. Unfortunately - 19 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 20 can I ask Senator Paterson if he would suffer an 21 interruption? And I apologize for this. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator Paterson, would you yield to Senator 11022 1 Bruno? 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Certainly, Mr. 3 President. 4 SENATOR BRUNO: I have Senator 5 LaValle that is, literally, catching a plane and 6 he will be returning, but I would ask, with your 7 indulgence, that he be allowed to vote on this 8 issue before he leaves. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 10 Secretary will read the last section. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: If he doesn't 12 leave shortly, it will be academic. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Read the last section. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: May we interrupt 16 you, Senator? 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, 18 absolutely. 19 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you, 20 Senator. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Sure. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 23 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 11023 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Call the roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll.) 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Senator LaValle. 6 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Withdraw the roll call. 9 Senator Paterson. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Mr. 11 President, I guess I won't be able to convince 12 Senator LaValle. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 There's 60 others, sir. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: But, Mr. 16 President, any attempt to undermine or confuse 17 or in any way diminish the value of the law as 18 it exists right now, in my opinion, is actually 19 to, in a sense, repeal the law without ever 20 really legislating it. 21 The only groups that I can find 22 that are in support of this legislation are the 23 Catholic Conference and other pro-life groups. 11024 1 The fact is that the result of 2 this law is going to have a chilling effect on 3 younger people who are seeking abortions. Let 4 me cite a couple of statistics to you. 74 5 percent of children aged 14 -- make it 90 6 percent -- do consult with a parent prior to 7 having an abortion. For 15-year-olds the 8 statistic is increased; and by 16, it's 59 9 percent. 10 So the younger the age of the 11 individual who is seeking the abortion, the 12 actual -- more likely it is for them to seek 13 consultation with a parent. Interestingly 14 enough, most are consulting the mother, so they 15 are consulting one of the two parents. 16 In those cases where we do have 17 an abortion being sought, 59 percent of 18 15-year-olds who seek them are doing it as a 19 result of rape or incest, and for 14-year-olds, 20 the number increases again to 74 percent. So 21 the younger the age of the girl that is seeking 22 the abortion, the higher the percentage is that 23 this is resultant of a case of rape or incest. 11025 1 As lachrymose as it would be for 2 our society to accept, it actually exists that 3 in many cases the parent or some guardian has 4 actually violated the individual that is seeking 5 the abortion, and what we have done is we have 6 created a situation where both parents have to 7 receive notification in order for the procedure 8 to take place. 9 What we are somewhat ignoring 10 when we start talking about health care and risk 11 to life is that the pregnancy is a greater risk 12 to life than the abortion itself. This is not a 13 value. This is a medical fact. 14 And so when we look at the 15 situation in toto, what we are doing is taking a 16 situation that most young people resolve. In 17 other words, most girls under 16 do seek the 18 advice of their parents prior to taking this 19 procedure. It is in the very few cases where 20 the individual doesn't feel that they can 21 consult that they are going forward and having 22 these procedures. 23 You can not legislate morality. 11026 1 You can not legislate family values. When 2 15-year-olds were questioned, 35 percent of them 3 said that their parents never talked to them 4 about sex or any of the possibilities that this 5 is existing; and when we start talking about 6 notifying the parents such as in a medical 7 procedure, such as a tooth extraction or repair 8 to a damaged limb, what we are understanding is 9 that this is the repair that exists only for 10 that period of time. If you get parental 11 consent to go on a school trip, it only lasts 12 for that day, but carrying a pregnancy to term 13 is an existence that will be in the life of the 14 individual forever. It will not necessarily be 15 in the life of the parent who may make that 16 decision forever. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Senator Paterson, will you hold for a second? 19 Ladies and gentlemen, please. We 20 need a little order in the house. 21 Thank you. 22 Excuse me, Senator. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 11027 1 President. 2 When we look at the issue of 3 notification as it exists in this bill, 4 notification -- based on the statistics that we 5 are citing, notification equalizes consent. 6 Notification becomes, in a sense, the catalyst 7 for consent and, although this legislation 8 covers the possibility of the child wanting to 9 go to term with the pregnancy, it does not allow 10 for any coverage for the individual who seeks to 11 have an abortion. 12 In other words, a young woman who 13 brings a pregnancy to term can be emancipated 14 and go on public assistance under this bill. If 15 the young woman does not want to do that, if the 16 young woman seeks to have the abortion and 17 there's intimidation or some kind of coercion 18 from the parent, there's absolutely no 19 protection, and so the result of this bill is 20 going to have a chilling effect on the 21 opportunity for a legal procedure for a young 22 person based on really what is an obfuscating 23 message that is being sent through the passage 11028 1 of legislation which is actually going to deny 2 that. 3 And, of course, the Becky Bell 4 case in Indiana, which was the case where the 5 child only got the consent of one parent and 6 then because they couldn't get the consent of - 7 they couldn't reach the consent of the other, 8 went ahead and had an illegal abortion and died 9 from it. There are tragic circumstances on both 10 sides that can come out of the discussion of 11 this legislation, but as long as we're allowing 12 the medical procedure to take place in this 13 state, and it is a legal procedure, we have to 14 understand that in the end, as sad as it may be, 15 the decision most relevant will be the decision 16 of the most affected party, which is the 17 decision of the young person who is involved. 18 Eighty-one percent of those who 19 were queried said that the reason they made such 20 a decision, the reason they didn't want to have 21 a child at 14 or 15 is because they thought they 22 were too young to have the child, and that is 23 probably what all of their parents, 100 percent 11029 1 of their parents, would have told them prior to 2 their becoming pregnant if there had been any 3 kind of discussion of it. 4 So rather than lecturing society 5 on what society's morality should be, we have to 6 understand, as legislators, that we have to 7 provide the protections for individuals who are 8 undergoing a very difficult period. 9 Now, if Senator Padavan would 10 yield for a few questions. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Senator Padavan, do you yield to Senator 13 Paterson? 14 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes, I'll be 15 glad to. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 17 Senator yields, sir. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 19 Padavan, the Medical Society opposes this 20 legislation and although they feel that doctors 21 should counsel and should certainly scrutinize 22 the procedure maybe more closely than they do 23 now, they feel that there is no real accurate 11030 1 burden of proof set forth in the Penal Law by 2 this legislation and that to pass it might even 3 have a constitutional prohibition but at the 4 least is not clear on what it is that the 5 responsibility of the doctor is. 6 And I was wondering if you could 7 explain to us what the doctor's responsibility 8 is, and why we're going to prosecute the doctor 9 when it is likely that the doctor may be given 10 -- may not have the right information? 11 SENATOR PADAVAN: First, Senator, 12 I believe you are but, if you are not, let me 13 share with you the fact that parental 14 notification and in some cases parental consent 15 is currently the law in over 30 states in this 16 country. Massachusetts, one of our neighbors, 17 is an example, and the concerns that you have 18 expressed relative to constitutionality have 19 been addressed, and the laws where the Supreme 20 Court has been called upon to evaluate them have 21 been ruled constitutional. 22 Even consent, if properly crafted 23 in terms of statute, is constitutional. So, 11031 1 therefore, the concern that you just outlined of 2 the Medical Society -- and I have not seen their 3 memo directly to be able to respond to it fully, 4 but from the part you've mentioned, 5 constitutionality is not an issue here. It's 6 long since not been an issue. 7 But we have received reports from 8 some of these states that have had the statute 9 on the books. Minnesota is an example, and 10 there are no problems of the sort that you just 11 outlined. 12 In regard to the physician, the 13 bill is very clear. It says that the physician 14 must notify parents or whether he is referring 15 -- or if the referring physician has done so 16 already, then the physician in the abortion 17 facility does not have to -- within 48 hours 18 prior to the surgery or the procedure having 19 been undertaken. So I think the doctor's 20 responsibility is very clear here. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator, do you continue to yield? 11032 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 2 Padavan, let me give you this scenario. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Senator yields. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Some public 6 interest group decides that they are going to - 7 since they are opposed to the actual 8 legalization of abortion, they are going to 9 plant themselves outside doctors' offices. They 10 are going to follow the individuals who come out 11 who have sought an abortion. They are going to 12 find out how old all of them were. They are 13 going to find out whether or not there was 14 parental notification. 15 And I'm sure somewhere, in a 16 large caseload, somebody has either arranged for 17 some phony parental notification or there is 18 incorrect information about the patient's age, 19 but now you have the criteria to prosecute 20 doctors, and in light of the fact that that is a 21 very likely possibility when we see the 22 tremendous effort that has been done to prevent 23 individuals from going to clinics to receive 11033 1 abortions who are adults, with that likelihood 2 existing, would this not have a chilling effect 3 on the right to a legal procedure for those 4 individuals, even if they had parental consent, 5 because the doctors now become unwilling because 6 their licenses and even their livelihoods are at 7 risk? 8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, I 9 think your point is so obtuse that it almost 10 makes it impossible to respond to, but I'll do 11 my best. 12 First, with regard to the 13 physician, if you read the statute, page 2 -- or 14 the proposed statute -- in the beginning of 15 paragraph 5, we are very careful to say that the 16 physician must intentionally -- I underline that 17 word -- intentionally seek to avoid the 18 application of notification. So I don't 19 foresee, as has not been the case in 30 some-odd 20 states where notification is currently the law. 21 Now, you are doing something that 22 the Majority Leader in his well-presented 23 remarks tried to preclude. You are bringing 11034 1 this issue of parental notification and parental 2 responsibility and parental prerogative into the 3 issue of abortion rights, reproductive rights, 4 and that is not the bill before us. 5 So, therefore, to relate this 6 issue with, quote, I think you said "chilling 7 effect" -- do I quote you properly - 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: -- is not only 10 inappropriate but not applicable with regard to 11 the matter before us. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Paterson. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, if 15 I'm correct, you said to me that this bill has 16 been passed in 30 other states and that there 17 has not been a sustained constitutional 18 challenge. But when I said to you that there 19 was a question of constitutionality about this 20 bill, I wasn't referring to the constitutions of 21 those 30 states. I was referring to the 22 Constitution of New York State which has much 23 different parameters than the other states, 11035 1 including Article XVII, and so what I'm saying 2 to you is that the application of law quite 3 often goes beyond the scope of the intent when 4 the law is drafted. 5 So if you were defining for me 6 what was in your contemplation when you wrote 7 the bill, well, that is not at issue because you 8 can tell us what you mean. But what I'm telling 9 you is that to suggest that there might not be a 10 further application beyond the scope of what you 11 have written would conflict with the purpose of 12 many laws that we pass in this chamber. 13 Sometimes the intent of the law 14 is written right into the law. Sometimes the 15 purpose of the law is actually hidden, but I'm 16 not even suggesting that in this case because 17 you have told us what you are trying to 18 address. 19 What I'm saying to you is, if 20 that's the case, then why can't you find one 21 group or anybody who basically is pro-choice who 22 thinks this is a good bill? I mean, I 23 understand the discussion. I understand what 11036 1 your point of view is, and I think that it is 2 very well worth the time discussing it, but what 3 you are trying to suggest is that you can't talk 4 about the legal right to have an abortion 5 because you wrote a bill that addresses parental 6 consent, and I'm telling you - 7 SENATOR PADAVAN: "Notification." 8 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm sorry, 9 notification, and I'm telling you that at some 10 point if the notification is perceived to be 11 consent, at least by the child -- I mean I don't 12 see any notification here for the bypass - 13 where the child can go to Family Court. So 14 since the child doesn't know that, if the 15 notification feels like it's going to be consent 16 to the child, then we're going to have a bunch 17 of illegal procedures in the state, and that was 18 one of reasons we legalized the process in the 19 first place, so it does relate -- it does relate 20 to the issue of abortion. 21 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, 22 first - 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Whether or not 11037 1 you agree with it, I'm saying it does relate. 2 SENATOR PADAVAN: I don't, 3 obviously, otherwise I wouldn't be standing 4 here, but let's respond as best we can to your 5 points. 6 First, Senator, you say identify 7 people who are pro-choice who are in favor of 8 parental notification, and I would roughly tell 9 you there would probably be about 10 million 10 people in this state who, when asked the 11 question, "Are you for legal abortions?" and 12 they would say, "Yes," and then if asked the 13 same question, as I have done in my own 14 district, "Are you for parental notification?" 15 and they would say, "Yes," because people make a 16 distinction between the issue of so-called 17 reproductive rights and the issue of a 13- or 18 14- or 15-year-old girl about to have a serious 19 intrusive procedure performed on her body, and 20 so, Senator, I give you millions of people in 21 New York State who fall into the category you 22 sought for me to identify. 23 Now, with regard to the other 11038 1 issue, you mention that we will be forcing young 2 girls into illegal abortions. I would urge you 3 to find out for me where that has happened in 4 any of the many states in this country that have 5 this type of law in effect. It has not 6 happened. It has not happened, nor would it 7 happen, in my view, in New York State. 8 But let us concern ourselves with 9 the potential harm that we know has occurred - 10 potential in the sense of already been a reality 11 and, therefore, potential in terms of future 12 realities -- when young girls in the age groups 13 we're talking about, without having had the 14 benefit of psychological treatment and care, 15 without having the benefit of follow-up medical 16 care. I think you know, Senator, that the 17 younger the age in terms of abortion, the more 18 prevalent the opportunities are for serious 19 complications not only at that point in time but 20 in the person's future. 21 So we're talking not only about 22 the present situation in regard to this 13- or 23 14- or 15-year-old girl, we're talking about her 11039 1 future, her emotional health, her physical 2 health and so, Senator, there's where the 3 tragedies potentially lie, not in children 4 rushing to be given illegal abortions in ways 5 that we have heard related to in other cases in 6 other situations. 7 So I suggest to you that your 8 concerns are not valid, but mine are, and I say 9 that to you with all due respect to you as a 10 person. The concerns I talk about are ones that 11 we have identified. We have come face to face 12 with them. The concerns that you talk about 13 have not been ones that we are aware of in those 14 states where, currently, notification takes 15 place. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 17 if Senator Padavan would continue to yield? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Padavan, do you continue to yield? 20 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 continues to yield. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: In the cases 11040 1 where you have illegal abortions, I don't know 2 how you are asking me to document them. But 3 even prior to your last remarks, I did document 4 a case in Indiana where exactly what I was 5 telling you occurred, so I don't know how that 6 can be characterized as not - 7 SENATOR PADAVAN: If Senator will 8 allow me, I'll be glad to respond to that. You 9 are talking about the Becky Bell case in 10 Indiana. Am I correct? 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Correct. 12 SENATOR PADAVAN: Let's talk 13 about it if you want to bring it up. The 14 autopsy report, which was publicly released, 15 failed to show any abortion. None whatsoever. 16 Even the advocates -- or, I should say, the 17 opponents of this legislation are ceasing to use 18 the Becky Bell case as an illustration of why 19 this legislation is inappropriate or the wrong 20 thing to do. However, we do have a case in 21 Chicago and we have the one I talked about in 22 Queens Village, where there was no question 23 about the fact that an abortion took place and 11041 1 there was no question about the fact that, in 2 both instances, two 13-year-old girls died. So 3 the situation you cite, the Indiana one, is 4 certainly not applicable to the issue you and I 5 are discussing. The ones I brought up are. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Senator, 7 her father certainly doesn't feel that way, but 8 what I would suggest to you is, are you saying 9 that this is -- assuming that you're right, and 10 I don't know where you are getting your 11 information from, but let's assume that you're 12 right. Suppose this case is a mis 13 characterization of the issue that I'm raising. 14 Are you telling me that a young person who 15 doesn't feel that they would be able to seek to 16 obtain the consent of their parents through the 17 notification would never think of going out and 18 trying to find a way to terminate the pregnancy 19 when, in fact, when the issue of abortion was 20 illegal in this state before 1972, this happened 21 all the time, so why would these young people be 22 any different than their predecessors? 23 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, you 11042 1 are missing a major point here, if I may 2 respond, Mr. President. 3 You are missing a major point. 4 You keep bringing up the word "consent." There 5 is no requirement of consent. Once the doctor 6 or the abortion facility has rendered 7 notification, that is the beginning and the end 8 of what we are mandating or attempting to 9 mandate. Consent is not a requirement in this 10 proposal. Some states do have it, but that's 11 not what is before us. 12 Incidentally, we passed the 13 consent bill in 1976, which I sponsored in this 14 house. It passed the Assembly, and was vetoed 15 by then Governor Carey, who cites time and time 16 again, in both speeches and in writings, why 17 that was one of the worst mistakes he's made 18 during his tenure as governor, but that's 19 another story. 20 I simply wish to correct you when 21 you bring up the issue of consent, because 22 that's not what is before us; and while it may 23 be inadvertent on your part, you have used the 11043 1 word "consent" at least three times so far, and 2 I would respectfully ask you not to use it 3 because it's not applicable. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 6 me, Senator Paterson. 7 Senator Oppenheimer, why do you 8 rise? 9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Would 10 Senator Paterson yield for a second while I ask 11 a question of something that Senator Padavan 12 just said? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Paterson has the floor if he wants to yield the 15 floor. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: I would yield, 17 Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Oppenheimer, you are asking Senator Padavan to 20 yield to a question? 21 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Padavan, do you yield to a question from Senator 11044 1 Oppenheimer? 2 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes, I'll be 3 glad to. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 5 Senator yields. 6 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Something 7 you just said where I am a bit confused. 8 SENATOR PADAVAN: You're going to 9 have to speak a little louder. 10 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: There was 11 something that you just made preference to. If 12 the courts were to say -- the parent -- to 13 decide -- the parent says no. They don't want 14 the child to have the abortion. Can the child, 15 the youngster, pregnant youngster - 16 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 17 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: -- then go 18 ahead and have the - 19 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes, that is 20 the point I'm making here. 21 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I just 22 wanted to clarify. 23 SENATOR PADAVAN: The involvement 11045 1 of the Family Court is on the issue of 2 notification, where the child through its 3 advocates or directly, however the case may be, 4 says, "I don't want to notify my parent or 5 parents." The Family Court would make a 6 determination on that issue alone, not on the 7 issue of consent. That's why I interrupted 8 Senator Paterson -- and I apologize for doing so 9 -- on that issue because it's so critical. 10 And you are asking a proper 11 question to clarify that, and I appreciate it. 12 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Paterson. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 16 President. Senator Padavan, "notification" is 17 the word that you wrote in the legislation. 18 Now, in the same legislation, you actually 19 acknowledged the issue of coercion; in other 20 words, where the parent is notified and now the 21 parent is using the authority that a parent has 22 to affect the decision that the young person is 23 making, and you in your legislation provide for 11046 1 the ability of the child to emancipate themself 2 and then receive public assistance should the 3 parent try to force the young person not to go 4 ahead and have the abortion and the young girl 5 doesn't want to have the abortion. 6 So while you tell us about the 7 fact that this is only notification, you 8 understand, in reality, what notification means 9 -- and I don't think that there is any reason 10 to, in any way, differ from that which you have 11 written in your legislation, in debate on the 12 floor and so, all of a sudden now, I don't think 13 it's just as simple as notification, because we 14 all know what notification means. 15 Where notification or where 16 parental involvement existed in Minnesota, the 17 number of second trimester abortions, which is 18 certainly more dangerous than first trimester, 19 went up 26 percent. In Massachusetts, where we 20 had the parental -- I guess we'll call it 21 involvement at this time because you don't want 22 me to say consent -- where there was parental 23 involvement, the number of out-of-state abor 11047 1 tions among the young people in Massachusetts 2 went to 35 percent, and back in Minnesota, the 3 number of births, generally, went up 40 percent 4 because the judges didn't think that the young 5 people were fit to have abortions, but they were 6 fit to be mothers, when 81 percent of them said, 7 "We're too young to be bearing children." 8 Now, guess what? I agree with 9 them. I think their parents agreed with them; 10 and I think if this was before they were in the 11 unfortunate predicament that they are in now, 12 then that would have been exactly the advice we 13 would have given them. The notification that we 14 really wish that the parents had is that the 15 young girls were having sex, but they are not 16 getting that notification, and I'm saying that 17 is not an issue that can change as a result of 18 the discussion between you and I, but what I'm 19 saying to you is that to, in some way, not 20 really face what notification really means is 21 not to really address what this bill is really 22 going to affect, and that's perhaps why we're 23 disagreeing because you are stopping short of 11048 1 understanding what the bill does. 2 Whether you support the bill or 3 not, whoever wants to vote on this bill, let's 4 just get clear what this bill is going to do and 5 what the bill means. 6 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Mendez, why do you rise? 9 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President, I 10 wonder if Senator Padavan would yield for a 11 couple of questions? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Paterson, do you yield to Senator Mendez? 14 SENATOR MENDEZ: Just a couple of 15 questions. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, sure. 17 Absolutely, Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 yields. 20 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator 21 Paterson, would you say -- which would you 22 consider to be a more risky medical procedure, 23 to have an abortion or to have a tooth drilled? 11049 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Having an 2 abortion, Senator. 3 SENATOR MENDEZ: Now, how do you 4 reconcile the existing facts today in New York 5 State that a child, in fact, not one under 16 6 but one could be 17 and less than 18 years of 7 age, would have to have not parental notifica 8 tion but parental consent and that parent would 9 have to go to the dental office and stay there 10 throughout the procedure, while a 13- and a 11 14-year-old is just taken, let's say, from 12 school and taken to a place where abortions are 13 performed without the parents knowing anything 14 about it? How do you reconcile that? What is 15 your opinion on that? 16 SENATOR PATERSON: First of all, 17 we're talking about legal abortions that are 18 conducted in - 19 SENATOR MENDEZ: No, I mean - 20 okay. First tell me that, and then we will talk 21 about that. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Which "that" 23 do you want me to tell you first? 11050 1 SENATOR MENDEZ: You know very 2 well which one, my dear David, and that is, how 3 do you reconcile, you already stated that an 4 abortion is a more dangerous or more riskier 5 procedure, medical procedure, than having a 6 tooth drilled? 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, okay. 8 SENATOR MENDEZ: And by law -- by 9 law in New York State, parents have to go to the 10 dental office and be there. Forget about the 11 child being 14 or 15 or 16 years old. The child 12 must be less than 18 years of age. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Currently, if 14 the child is pregnant, they don't need that 15 permission, and the reason for that, Senator, 16 is - 17 SENATOR MENDEZ: It's better for 18 a parent to be advised -- or to be notified. 19 It's better for a parent to be notified that 20 their child must have a tooth drilled but that 21 same parent -- it is okay not to notify them 22 that their child is going to have a riskier 23 medical procedure like an abortion is? 11051 1 SENATOR PATERSON: What I would 2 say, Senator, is it certainly is not okay. It 3 is not okay. But what we're talking about in 4 this bill is the damages that would be sought in 5 civil liability against the doctor if this 6 occurs, and so while -- I don't think it's okay. 7 SENATOR MENDEZ: And those - 8 SENATOR PATERSON: -- you know, 9 if I can just finish. In most cases, Senator, 10 the younger people are seeking their parents. 11 In fact, the younger their age the more they are 12 seeking their parents, but what they are doing 13 is they are only going to one parent, preferably 14 the mother in most of those cases. What this 15 bill says is that both parents have to be 16 notified within a 48-hour period. 17 SENATOR MENDEZ: And if both 18 parents are not present because they are 19 divorced, or if there are not parents around but 20 there is a legal guardian, then that person will 21 be notified. Isn't that so? 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 23 Padavan did address the issue of the unavailable 11052 1 parent in the legislation. Now, what I would 2 say is that he describes a reasonable period of 3 time. I don't know what a reasonable period of 4 time is. That's unclear. But I will concede 5 that Senator Padavan has addressed the issue of 6 not being able to find both of the parents or 7 their unavailability. 8 But what I'm saying is if you 9 have both parents available and you have a 10 situation right now where a predominant number 11 of the young people are actually informing one 12 of the parents, but we're saying in this 13 legislation, That's not enough; you have to tell 14 both parents. 15 So, in other words, all of the 16 issues that you just raised, the issue of the 17 seriousness of the procedure, how it's more 18 important than drilling a tooth, what I would 19 like to know is why is it more important that 20 both parents know than one because we even 21 understand that an adult can make that 22 decision. One adult can make that decision, but 23 this bill says, That's not enough; we need two 11053 1 adults, and I'm saying, why would we need two 2 adults when the question you just asked could be 3 answered through the intervention of one adult? 4 Why do we need two? 5 SENATOR MENDEZ: Well, the bill 6 states that if the two parents are not available 7 but there is a legal guardian available - 8 SENATOR PATERSON: No, Senator, 9 I'm saying the parents are available. In the 10 situation that I'm suggesting, the parents are 11 available. Why do we need two parents? 12 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator 13 Paterson, a point of clarification. If I have a 14 14-year-old daughter who becomes pregnant -- and 15 let's assume that my home is a so-called 16 dysfunctional home, let us assume that I am such 17 a terrible mother that I use "crack" or I engage 18 in alcoholic bouts and that I mistreat my child 19 enormously -- let's assume all that -- and that 20 child is pregnant, that child would feel -- the 21 assumption is that that child would feel that 22 she can not come to me because I am such a 23 horrible mother that I mistreat her, I abuse 11054 1 her; and thus, under this bill, what is that 2 child supposed to do? She doesn't have to tell 3 me, notify me, but would she go directly to the 4 Department of Social Services and say, "I can 5 not tell my mother, that horrible woman, that I 6 am pregnant; she abuses me"? What will happen 7 then? Will that child be able to get a waiver 8 from the Family Court without letting me know? 9 Is that in the bill? 10 SENATOR PATERSON: It's actually 11 a very good point, Senator. You've actually 12 made a very good point. I don't know why your 13 point would argue in favor of passing the bill, 14 but I acknowledge you've made a very good point. 15 But I just want to ask you - 16 SENATOR MENDEZ: But why? Tell 17 me why. It is a point that would be good for 18 passing this bill, wouldn't it? 19 SENATOR PATERSON: No, it's 20 actually a reason not to pass this bill. 21 SENATOR MENDEZ: Explain to me 22 why not, please. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Because, 11055 1 Senator, you've just described the circumstance 2 that people are having of a parent you can't 3 confide in. You have a parent you can't confide 4 in, and that is a situation that isn't brought 5 about by your point of view or Senator Padavan's 6 or mine. It is a circumstance that exists. As 7 unfortunate as it is, it is a circumstance that 8 exists. 9 But I would just like to ask you, 10 Senator. 11 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: You said that 13 if a person goes to the dentist's office that a 14 parent has to come with them. How many parents 15 have to come with them? 16 SENATOR MENDEZ: How many parents 17 does a child have? 18 SENATOR PATERSON: How many 19 parents have to come to the dentist's office? 20 SENATOR MENDEZ: One? Or both? 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Only one, 22 Senator. Only one. 23 And my question is, why do we 11056 1 need two parents to be notified, unless the 2 notification doesn't really have anything to do 3 with the medical procedure, unless the 4 notification is really the precursor to consent, 5 which really is, in a sense, the way that you 6 are chilling the opportunity of young people who 7 legally can receive an abortion in this state 8 from not getting one. 9 SENATOR MENDEZ: Do you think 10 that this bill is anti-choice? 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Absolutely, 12 without a doubt. 13 SENATOR MENDEZ: How do you 14 define anti-choice? Anti-choice is not having a 15 choice of doing anything. Why do you consider 16 this bill anti-choice? 17 SENATOR PATERSON: I consider it 18 that way because it goes one way and not the 19 other. It provides for a protection for the 20 young person who wants to bring the pregnancy to 21 term. If they bring the pregnancy to term and 22 the parent doesn't like it, the parent may take 23 some action against the child, but the child can 11057 1 emancipate themself, become an adult, strangely 2 enough, and now make the decisions. We're going 3 to let them become adults now. We're going to 4 let them apply for social services. 5 But, strangely enough, if the 6 child does not seek to bring the pregnancy to 7 term, all of a sudden we don't have any 8 protection. We are inviting coercion and 9 intimidation by passing this legislation. 10 SENATOR MENDEZ: So you are not 11 answering my question, Senator Paterson. Do you 12 know why? Because you are saying that something 13 occurs if a child chooses to have an abortion 14 but something does not occur if the child 15 chooses not to have an abortion, so that child 16 then has a choice of either having an abortion 17 or not having an abortion. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: No, Senator, 19 it's not whether you are or are not having an 20 abortion. It's whether or not you feel you 21 should have one. It's not what you actually 22 do. It's what your intention is and the ability 23 of the parent to use the parental authority to 11058 1 stop you. 2 SENATOR MENDEZ: That child has 3 an option, has a choice. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Mendez. 6 SENATOR MENDEZ: I'm sorry, Mr. 7 President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Mendez, excuse me just a minute. I've been 10 trying to let you go so that you could, 11 hopefully, have a meaningful dialogue at the 12 same time. 13 SENATOR MENDEZ: I'm sorry, Mr. 14 President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: This is 16 not your time on the floor; but if you would 17 like Senator Paterson to yield to a question, 18 certainly that's entirely permissible. 19 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President, I 20 think that Senator Paterson has been most 21 enlightening on this issue, and I think that he 22 has been courteous in allowing me to pursue this 23 that interests me so very much. So I want to 11059 1 thank him here; and, in private, we shall keep 2 on discussing this issue. 3 Thank you, Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Paterson, you have the floor. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 7 President. 8 I want to thank Senator Mendez 9 for the conversation with her. Even though we 10 don't agree, it really brought me to the focus 11 of what I was talking to Senator Padavan about, 12 which is that, yes, I do consider this to be 13 anti-choice legislation. I consider it to be 14 legislation that actually undermines the laws 15 that exist now, and I think the legislation is 16 in existence because the individuals who are 17 supporting it can't change the law that they 18 would like to change. 19 Now, Senator Padavan and Senator 20 Bruno cited the public that they feel is voting 21 in favor of passing this bill, but when people 22 see what this legislation actually would do - 23 and that's what we're trying to point out here, 11060 1 the fact that when 15-year-olds were queried 2 that 36 percent of them said that their parents 3 didn't talk to them about any of this, the time 4 to start talking to young people isn't when they 5 are pregnant and seeking some kind of 6 assistance. The time to talk to them is 7 beforehand. 8 But I'm not going to pretend to 9 stand here and give society a lecture about what 10 society should do. What I'm doing is, I am 11 trying to advocate in favor of the law that we 12 have in existence now which allows for that 13 abortion. The individual, the 81 percent of the 14 young people who've decided that they're too 15 young to have children, they are right, Mr. 16 President. They are absolutely right. They 17 know that this would be a complicated burden for 18 them through their lives, and it would be an 19 endurance that they are really not up for. 20 We, as a society, aren't 21 providing any early childhood care or public 22 assistance or minimum wage rising to the level 23 that we're going to give them a fair chance if 11061 1 they go to term. But what we are doing is we 2 are restricting the rights of individuals 3 because we don't like the laws that exist now, 4 and I think it's a little pious to stand up here 5 and say that this really just relates to 6 parental notification because it really 7 doesn't. 8 In those situations where we need 9 parental notification, then let's notify one 10 parent. The kids are already doing that, 59 11 percent of them over 16, 74 percent of them over 12 15, 91 percent of them over 14, and higher for 13 those who are younger than 14. They are 14 vulnerable, they are in trouble, they seek the 15 counsel of their parents. 16 But why do we need the second 17 parent? We only need one adult to make a 18 decision and to talk to the child. We need the 19 second parent because we are trying to find as 20 many people until we can get the veto to stop 21 the process in the first place. That's what I 22 think this bill actually does, and that's what I 23 think the danger of this legislation actually 11062 1 is. 2 In terms of the states that have 3 put this parental involvement into effect, you 4 have a higher incidence of out-of-state 5 abortions, higher incidence of second trimester 6 abortions, higher incidence of problems within 7 the family, and the bypass that we allow the 8 Family Court to allow, we don't even notify the 9 individual who is concerned of their opportunity 10 to receive that. 11 So for a number of reasons, I 12 really think that this is legislation that is 13 inappropriate and does not really relate to the 14 importance of the legislation, and I urge a no 15 vote on it. 16 Thank you. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: For the 18 benefit of the members present and those who can 19 hear my voice, I would simply mention that this 20 debate started at noon. The two hours would 21 expire at 2:00. There are 13 other members who 22 have requested time to speak. 23 Senator Dollinger is next on the 11063 1 list. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 3 President. Will Senator Padavan yield to a 4 series of questions? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Padavan, do you yield? 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: If I could, 8 Mr. President, just ask for a series of 9 questions so we don't have to - 10 SENATOR PADAVAN: Like the 11 prosecutor. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Excuse me? 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: That's all 14 right. Yes. The answer is yes. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 yields. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I 18 think this is a very serious bill, and I 19 understand the very serious concern that you 20 have. What I want to do is go through this bill 21 and ask a series of questions about whether what 22 this bill does is achieve the effect that you 23 want. 11064 1 Let's start with the definition 2 of "unemancipated minor". How does that come 3 about? I would assume that the child walks in 4 and the physician says, "How old are you?" What 5 happens if the child says, "I'm 17 years old," 6 what does the physician then do? 7 SENATOR PADAVAN: If the child is 8 17 years old or even 16 years old, the bill is 9 not applicable. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What if the 11 child isn't telling the truth? 12 SENATOR PADAVAN: If a child is 13 not telling the truth? 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The child is 15 15 years old and says to the physician "I'm 16," 16 which is a common phenomenon in our society. My 17 child, my son who is 16 years old has been heard 18 to say "I'm 17," "I'm 18." He oftentimes - 19 perhaps lying about your age is not the most 20 serious crime that we have in our state, but it 21 happens all the time. 22 What happens when a 15-year-old 23 girl walks in and says, "I'm 16"? What does the 11065 1 physician then do, if anything, under this 2 bill? 3 SENATOR PADAVAN: If the 4 youngster represents herself as not being within 5 the age parameters that this bill provides, and 6 the physician has no reason to disbelieve her, 7 the abortion clinic or whatever, then obviously 8 there is no liability -- if that's what you are 9 asking me -- on the part of the entity 10 performing the abortion. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. So 12 there is no notification required if the child 13 lies; is that correct? 14 SENATOR PADAVAN: There is no 15 notification required if, in the view of the 16 child -- you are asking a question that begs an 17 answer. You are asking me a question like they 18 know the child is lying. If they know the child 19 is lying, then obviously notification applies. 20 If they believe the child, based on information 21 that's provided to them, and there are a variety 22 of ways of doing that, then obviously 23 notification is not required. 11066 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But, in 2 essence, by putting the age at 16, any child 3 that says "I'm 16," the physician has discharged 4 all his responsibilities under the law by simply 5 saying, "The child is 16; I don't have to give 6 notification." There's nothing in this bill 7 that requires him to do anything more, is 8 there? 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, we 10 have ages of majority. Emancipation in all of 11 our other statutes is 18 for a whole host of 12 issues. So the question of verification of age 13 is not unique to this proposal. It's embodied 14 in thousands of sections of law ranging from the 15 Alcoholic Beverage Control Law to the Motor 16 Vehicle Law, and so on and so on and so on. 17 Someone comes in at 16 in some 18 parts of the state can get a driver's license if 19 they go to the Motor Vehicle Bureau. But the 20 point of the matter is if, in the view of the 21 performing entity, they believe the child to be 22 16 or older, then notification is not required. 23 That's the only answer I can give you. 11067 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. But 2 there's nothing in this bill that requires the 3 physician to do anything more than ask the 4 question and be satisfied with the answer; 5 correct? There's nothing in here that requires 6 him to verify it, to ask for a driver's license, 7 to ask for a birth certificate, ask for school 8 information? In fact, if they put down on the 9 application form or on the medical form, "I'm 16 10 years old," the issue is settled and no 11 notification applies, no matter how old the 12 child actually is? 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: I have answered 14 that question the only way I can, Senator. If 15 you keep asking it, you're only going to get the 16 same answer, so that's where we're at. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. What 18 happens, Senator, if the child says, "I'm 15 19 years old, but I have been freed from the care, 20 custody and control of my parents"? 21 SENATOR PADAVAN: I'm sorry. 22 Would you repeat that again, please? 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What happens 11068 1 if the child says to the physician, "I'm 15 2 years old, but I have been freed from the care, 3 custody and control of my parents"? What, if 4 anything, does the physician have to do to 5 verify that statement? The bill doesn't require 6 that he or she do anything. Simply, if the 7 child says it - 8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, if you 9 look on page 3 of the bill, paragraph 5, where 10 it says, "Any person who intentionally performs 11 an abortion with knowledge that or with reckless 12 disregard to whether the person upon whom the 13 abortion is to be performed is an unemancipated 14 minor and who intentionally or knowingly 15 violates the requirements of this section shall 16 be guilty of a misdemeanor." 17 That's the answer to your 18 question; therefore, the responsibility on the 19 performing entity would be to ensure that the 20 child is emancipated. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: How does the 22 person who is making that determination, the 23 physician, the health care provider, how do they 11069 1 do that? What would you recommend under the 2 bill that they do to determine whether or not 3 they have been freed from the care, custody and 4 control of their parents? 5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, there are 6 three parts to the emancipated minor definition, 7 Mr. President. A minor has been lawfully 8 married -- that's kind of obvious; I don't think 9 it would be difficult to indicate that fact - 10 or has by court order or otherwise been freed 11 from the care, custody and control of her 12 parents. 13 It is the responsibility of the 14 performing entity to determine if one or more of 15 those emancipating conditions are indeed true. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But how does 17 the physician do it? When the child says, 18 "Doctor, I have been freed from the care, 19 control and custody of my parents. I don't 20 report to them. I don't live in the house." 21 SENATOR PADAVAN: "Then where do 22 you live?" 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Excuse me? 11070 1 SENATOR PADAVAN: "Where do you 2 live? With whom do you live, and what is the 3 person whom you live with" or whatever? 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But the child 5 doesn't - 6 SENATOR PADAVAN: So, therefore, 7 I think there -- you know, Senator, your ques 8 tion is somewhat disingenuous. We're talking 9 about a physician, a professional person, about 10 to perform a very -- potentially about to 11 perform a very serious intrusive procedure. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: M-m h-m-m. 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Now, you are 14 suggesting within the framework of your question 15 that these very reasonable determinations are 16 beyond the scope and capacity of a doctor or a 17 health professional to achieve, when those same 18 professionals are requiring far more significant 19 -- far more significant implementing require 20 ments in other things other than abortion. 21 So I suggest to you, Senator, 22 that your question is difficult to answer 23 directly because it is an inappropriate 11071 1 question. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I 3 have several other questions, but please 4 recognize that my focus is not so much on the 5 physician. My focus is whether or not we are 6 going to make our children into liars because 7 we're going to tell them, "If you say you are 8 17, you can get an abortion. If you say that 9 you are free from the custody and control of 10 your parents, you can get an abortion." 11 The question becomes, what are we 12 doing to our children; what message are we 13 sending to our children by doing this? 14 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, I will 15 try once again. You heard me mention several 16 times that this is law in many states, and the 17 problems that you are talking about have not 18 arisen. 19 Now, earlier, Senator Paterson 20 asked me if I was aware of the opposition of the 21 Medical Society of the State of New York. I 22 told him I hadn't received a memo. Since he 23 asked the question, I have. One of our 11072 1 colleagues was kind enough to give it to me. 2 First, I will advise you and 3 Senator Paterson that this memo -- and I'll 4 quote it, "Statement Relative to Mandatory 5 Parental Consent." Senator Paterson, I hope you 6 heard me, "consent." But even at that, it's not 7 a memo in opposition. 8 But with regard to your question, 9 there is a part of this memo I would like to 10 quote: "Physicians should strongly encourage 11 minors to discuss their pregnancy with their 12 parents. Physicians should explain how parental 13 involvement can be helpful and that parents are 14 generally very understanding and supportive." 15 In any event, I have full faith 16 and -- in the fact that physicians and other 17 health professionals would be able to apply the 18 unemancipated minor definition in this bill 19 without any difficulty, as is currently the case 20 throughout the country. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 22 President, I have a series of other questions. 23 Let me just point out something, 11073 1 Senator Padavan. You have been the leading 2 advocate of restrictions on illegal aliens. In 3 all of those bills, you have detailed in the 4 statute exactly what is necessary to prove 5 whether or not you are an alien, an illegal 6 alien or a legal alien. I'd suggest to you that 7 that issue of what standard you are going to 8 apply to the physician to determine age, what 9 verification is necessary, may be critical to 10 the future of this bill if it some day becomes 11 law. 12 Let me turn your attention to 13 another area of this bill. The purpose of this 14 bill according to the introduction is, it's 15 designed to promote families; isn't that 16 correct? 17 SENATOR PADAVAN: It's designed 18 to do lots of things, and I think I explained 19 that at some length earlier, and I really don't 20 feel obliged to impose that on my colleagues all 21 over again. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But it's 23 designed to protect family decision-making, 11074 1 isn't that correct? 2 SENATOR PADAVAN: Family 3 involvement, parental involvement is obviously 4 the major motivation. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: If you 6 believe in parental involvement, why don't you 7 notify the father of this fetus? After all, he 8 is the father, isn't he? 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, I 10 restrain myself from even attempting to answer 11 that question, so I will say to you I refuse to 12 answer that question because it's beyond belief 13 that you should even bring it up within the 14 context of this bill. We're talking about a 13 15 or 14-year-old child. Do you want us to get 16 involved in trying to track down the other 14 17 or 15- or -- whatever young boy who caused the 18 pregnancy as a factor here? That's 19 unfortunately an issue that we might want to 20 address but not within the context of this 21 legislation. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through you, 23 Mr. President. But you certainly believe - 11075 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Dollinger, excuse me just a minute. 3 Senator Padavan, do you continue 4 to yield to Senator Dollinger? 5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Senator yields. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But you 9 certainly believe that the woman ought to have 10 consultation with her parents, but you don't 11 believe that the father of the child should have 12 the right to consult with the woman who is 13 supposedly, under your view of this, bearing his 14 child? 15 SENATOR PADAVAN: Either you 16 weren't here or you didn't hear a word I said. 17 We're talking about this young girl's physical, 18 emotional well-being at that point in time and 19 in her future life. That is our primary focus. 20 The family issue is also 21 important, but the primary focus is on the 22 health of that young girl, and whatever might be 23 desirable in regard to the young man or young 11076 1 boy who caused the pregnancy is irrelevant to 2 that major focus. Now, I don't understand why 3 you don't understand that. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, I'm not 5 so sure I understand it. I understand this bill 6 is designed to promote parental involvement - 7 SENATOR PADAVAN: That is -- what 8 it's designed to do is - 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- and yet one 10 parent -- one parent - 11 SENATOR PADAVAN: -- to protect 12 and ensure the physical and emotional well-being 13 of a girl under 16 years of age. That's its 14 primary focus, Senator. That's why I shared 15 with everyone in here the very tragic story of 16 the young 13-year-old girl in my district. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: We'll get to 18 that in a second. 19 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, we will 20 get to it. It already happened. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It did. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Dollinger, are you asking Senator Padavan to 11077 1 continue to yield? 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, please, 3 Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Padavan, do you continue to yield? 6 Senator Dollinger, excuse me just 7 a minute. 8 Senator Padavan? 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes, I yield. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 continues to yield. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator 13 Padavan, you contain in here language that says 14 that coercion to undergo an abortion is 15 illegal. Isn't that correct? 16 SENATOR PADAVAN: We have a 17 provision here that prohibits coercion by a 18 parent relevant to undergoing an abortion. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What about - 20 is there any penalty in your bill for 21 coercion - 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Padavan. Excuse me, Senator Dollinger. 11078 1 Senator Padavan, do you continue 2 to yield? 3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 continues to yield. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is there any 7 penalty in your bill for coercing a child not to 8 undergo an abortion? 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: No. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So the only 11 penalty attaches - 12 SENATOR PADAVAN: Because -- if I 13 might give you a complete answer. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, if you 15 would. 16 SENATOR PADAVAN: And it's an 17 answer that might be relevant to one of the 18 questions Senator Paterson asked earlier in his 19 dialogue with Senator Mendez. 20 Parental notification is the 21 essence of this bill, not consent. Therefore, 22 the abortion can take place without parental 23 consent or prohibition. All the physician or 11079 1 clinic must do is notify. Therefore, the 2 coercion provision, in our view, is not 3 necessary with regard to the issue you raise. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: How does the 5 child who is coerced by - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Dollinger, are you asking Senator Padavan to 8 continue to yield? 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My apologies, 10 Mr. President. If Senator Padavan would 11 continue to yield? 12 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 continues to yield. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: How does the 16 child who is coerced one way or the other get 17 any relief? What do they do? Do they file a 18 misdemeanor complaint against their parents for 19 coercing them? 20 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, let's 21 read the whole section. If coercion takes 22 place, we have involvement of a court of 23 competent jurisdiction which provides relief, 11080 1 and that court has the ability to provide the 2 minor with counsel and give the matter expedited 3 consideration, grant relief, including public 4 support. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So in other 6 words, a child has to go into a courtroom and 7 bring a legal complaint against their parents if 8 they are coerced to undergo an abortion, but 9 they don't have to do that if they're coerced - 10 they don't do anything. There is no relief 11 available if they are coerced not to undergo an 12 abortion? 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: If the 14 youngster has gone to an abortion clinic, been 15 brought there, which is usually the case, by a 16 social worker or some individual, the child is 17 there and if notification takes place within the 18 48 hours, then the abortion can be performed as 19 a matter of law. 20 So, again, the question is 21 difficult to respond to beyond that statement on 22 my part. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 11081 1 through you, Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Padavan, do you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 yields. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What evidence 8 do you envision being presented at this court 9 room where the issue is whether or not the child 10 is being coerced to undergo an abortion? Can 11 you tell me how you see that proceeding coming 12 about, unraveling? 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, first, 14 Senator, I think you should be aware of the fact 15 that in regard -- and if you'll turn to page 4, 16 on line 46, beginning of line 46, you will see 17 that we have provided that "the Supreme Court 18 shall promulgate any rules and regulations 19 necessary to ensure that proceedings under this 20 section are handled in an expeditious and 21 anonymous manner. The Supreme Court in its 22 discretion may issue such other and further 23 lawful orders as it deems necessary to protect 11082 1 such person." 2 So we are providing for, in the 3 bill, a mechanism to generate the answers to 4 your questions. However, those are not answers 5 that I think anyone here, certainly not I, can 6 provide to you when you say, "Do you envision". 7 I'm not in the business of envisioning. I don't 8 think any of us are, but we do provide authority 9 and direction to ensure that whatever is 10 required is developed within the judiciary. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 12 President. If Senator Padavan will continue to 13 yield? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Padavan, do you continue to yield? 16 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 continues to yield. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I 20 agree with you that we provide authority and 21 direction, but one of the other things we should 22 do is provide some kind of statutory history, 23 some kind of discussion, as I'm undergoing now 11083 1 with the sponsor of this bill, so that courts 2 some day, when they look back and say, "How do 3 we handle one of these coercion proceedings?" 4 we'll be able to sit back and say, "Here's what 5 Senator Padavan thought should be in the record 6 of how these proceedings...." They will look to 7 us for some guidance. That's why I ask the 8 question. 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: The bill is far 10 more specific in that regard, Mr. President. It 11 provides the Court the mechanism and the 12 authority and the direction to develop what you 13 just outlined, rather than rely upon any 14 dialogue between you and I, and I think that's 15 far more appropriate. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: If Senator 17 Padavan will continue to yield? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Padavan, do you continue to yield? 20 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 yields. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The bill 11084 1 creates a right of civil damages if for some 2 reason the requirements are not complied with; 3 isn't that correct? 4 SENATOR PADAVAN: Again, we refer 5 to the bill itself - 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Correct. 7 SENATOR PADAVAN: -- page 3, line 8 5, with regard to penalties, and the operative 9 word here should be clearly understood, 10 "intentionally performs an abortion with 11 knowledge..." and so on. The word 12 "intentionally," meaning - 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Correct. 14 SENATOR PADAVAN: -- and, of 15 course, I think that's quite clear where and 16 when a civil action occurs. 17 If we're going to talk about 18 civil actions, I think it might be of interest 19 for you to know that in the situation, the 20 tragic event that I discussed earlier with 21 regard to Dawn Ravenell, her parents sued on a 22 civil action and the award was over a million 23 dollars. 11085 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 2 President, if Senator Padavan will continue to 3 yield? 4 SENATOR PADAVAN: So, you know, 5 in regard to the potential of civil actions, it 6 falls both ways and the only major award that 7 I'm aware of in this subject area was from a 8 parent or parents suing an abortion clinic for 9 having killed their daughter, so I'm not 10 troubled by any language here. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 12 President, will Senator Padavan continue to 13 yield? 14 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 continues to yield. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: He got off 18 the answer to the question. Is it your 19 intention in this bill that hospitals and health 20 clinics themselves would be held accountable 21 under the civil damage question, or just any 22 person? 23 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, it says 11086 1 "any person who intentionally performs an 2 abortion." I think it's clear. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is it your 4 intention to include hospitals and health 5 clinics in there? 6 SENATOR PADAVAN: I think the 7 language here speaks for itself, Senator. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. Again, 9 Mr. President, if Senator Padavan will continue 10 to yield? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Padavan, do you continue to yield? 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 yields. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Could you 17 tell me how you calculate the damages in a civil 18 action? 19 SENATOR PATERSON: How I 20 calculate it? 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What are 22 damages? 23 SENATOR PADAVAN: No, Senator, I 11087 1 can't tell you how it's calculated any more than 2 I can tell you why the Court awarded the 3 Ravenell family a million dollars in that 4 circumstance; and, therefore, I'm not certainly 5 going to be in a position to tell you how much 6 they would award and why under these 7 circumstances; nor could I in any other civil 8 action. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through you, 10 Mr. President, if Senator Padavan will continue 11 to yield? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Padavan, do you continue to yield? 14 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Senator yields. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The Ravenell 18 case involved a death. This is a civil action 19 for civil liability based on the failure to 20 notify the parent of the child's abortion. What 21 are the damages to the parent upon failing to be 22 notified? 23 SENATOR PADAVAN: What are the 11088 1 damages on the who? 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, you're 3 creating a civil liability for failure to 4 provide notice. 5 SENATOR PADAVAN: That would be 6 in any civil liability, Senator. That would be 7 determined within the framework of the judicial 8 process that dictates civil cases. It's not 9 something I can answer. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, the 11 answer is you don't know. 12 SENATOR PADAVAN: Nor do I really 13 think you expect me to. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The answer is 15 you don't know; right? 16 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, do you? 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I don't 18 know. I'm not the sponsor of the bill. 19 SENATOR PADAVAN: Do you know 20 what the civil obligation or liability would be 21 in any civil action permitted by law? 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, through 23 you, Mr. President, if Senator Padavan will 11089 1 continue to yield? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Padavan, do you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6 Senator yields. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Tell me: 8 What are the damages sustained by the parent for 9 the lack of notice? 10 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, the 11 damages are to the parent, and I have heard you 12 on many occasions refer to your family. If 13 someone were to do something to your child that 14 you didn't know about that was harmful, you 15 would not walk, you would run to the nearest 16 place of legal jurisdiction to take out an 17 action, if I measure you properly and I think I 18 do. And what would be the damages you would 19 talk about and why? You are a very competent 20 attorney. You answer that question for 21 yourself. 22 We're talking about something 23 happening here that has potential harm to a 11090 1 child, and the parents would certainly, with 2 competent assistance, be able to make a judgment 3 as to how they would proceed in a civil action. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. Just 5 through you, Mr. President, one other question 6 about the civil damage portion. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Padavan, do you continue to yield? 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, I'm 10 going to yield to one more question, because 11 it's 20 after 1:00, and I think the President 12 indicated - 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's fine, 14 Mr. President. I'll ask one more question then, 15 if the Senator will yield. 16 SENATOR PADAVAN: It's more than 17 an hour, so I'm going to indulge you one more 18 time, and then we will go on. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Padavan will yield to one more question. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. It's 22 unfortunate, because there is a lot in the 23 procedure that is worthy of questions, but 11091 1 perhaps Senator Padavan doesn't want to deal 2 with it. 3 Let me ask you this question. 4 The judicial bypass provision in the Family 5 Court bill is designed to bypass the notice; 6 correct? 7 SENATOR PADAVAN: Correct. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So the only 9 purpose of the proceeding is to determine 10 whether or not the parents should get notice or 11 not; isn't that correct? 12 SENATOR PADAVAN: The bypass 13 provision, it's very clear. You know, you are 14 asking the question, but all you have to do is 15 read it. The answer is right there in front of 16 you. It tells you clearly - 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is it 18 designed - 19 SENATOR PADAVAN: -- clearly when 20 and how the bypass provision is applicable. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But - 22 SENATOR PADAVAN: It begins - 23 it's Article 10(a). It begins on page 3. 11092 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But, through 2 you, Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator, 4 do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The purpose 6 of judicial bypass - 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Dollinger, excuse me just a minute. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- is 10 determined - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Dollinger, excuse me just a minute. 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: There is a 14 carryover, apparently. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Padavan will continue to yield to this question. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The judicial 18 bypass provision is designed to determine 19 whether or not you must give notice to the 20 parents. What they are doing is bypassing 21 notice; isn't that correct? 22 SENATOR PADAVAN: The bypass 23 provision allows for a process to take place 11093 1 where notification need not occur, yes, and the 2 procedure, chapter and verse, is in front of 3 you. Please read it. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 5 you, Mr. President. 6 SENATOR PADAVAN: No more. 7 That's it, Senator. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Dollinger. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Fine. Mr. 11 President, I'M disappointed that Senator Padavan 12 wouldn't allow me to ask additional questions, 13 because this bill has a lot in it. I know it's 14 taken some time. I appreciate Senator Padavan's 15 cooperation. 16 But what I find so amazing about 17 the judicial bypass provision is that it doesn't 18 say -- it doesn't say it bypasses notice. This 19 isn't a judicial bypass provision. This is a 20 judicial provision that allows the court to make 21 the decision as to whether or not it's in the 22 best interest of the child. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11094 1 Dollinger, excuse me just a minute. 2 Senator Onorato, why do you 3 rise? 4 SENATOR ONORATO: Mr. President. 5 I would like a clarification on a point of 6 information. You told us -- I understand you 7 are going to invoke the two-hour rule on this 8 bill, and I understand that you had, at the last 9 count, 19 potential speakers. I am wondering if 10 you are going to allocate a time limit on each 11 speaker so that they will all have an equal 12 opportunity to speak on this bill? 13 If not, I don't know how we're 14 going -- unless you are willing to go beyond the 15 two-hour limit. I think we ought to have a 16 clarification on that before we allow each 17 speaker to -- we have gone an hour and a half on 18 the bill almost, and we've only had two people 19 on it so far. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Onorato, your point is very well taken about 22 raising the issue. I would just remind you that 23 it is not the Chair's position to invoke any 11095 1 rule of the house. Any member can do that. I 2 simply made the notation for your benefit 3 knowing -- so that you would know that any 4 member could rise after 2:00 p.m. this afternoon 5 and object to continuing discussion. 6 I don't know what the rest of the 7 60 members are going to be thinking about the 8 length of this debate, but that is a rule of the 9 house. I do not have the authority as the Chair 10 of this body, presiding officer, to invoke a 11 time limit for members to speak. It was merely 12 my intention to remind the members because I 13 know that they want to be most courteous and 14 respectful of the requests of the other members 15 of the house to give them an opportunity to 16 speak on this issue which is an extremely 17 emotional one and an important one and one that 18 should be duly considered, and there are still 19 13 members who have requested to speak on this 20 bill. 21 Senator Dollinger -- so that is 22 the point of information answer, Senator 23 Onorato. 11096 1 Senator Dollinger, you have the 2 floor. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Consistent 4 with your answer on this bill, Mr. President and 5 my other colleagues, it wasn't my intention to 6 tie up this time. I will yield the floor and 7 explain my vote. I wish we had more time to do 8 this, but - 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Abate is next on the list. 11 Senator Mendez, why do you rise? 12 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President, I 13 know it is a very difficult issue for me, but I 14 must ask one question of Senator Padavan that is 15 most crucial to my making up my mind on this 16 issue. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: My only 18 problem with that, Senator Mendez, is that you 19 right now are about seventh or eighth on the 20 list to take the floor. There are six or seven 21 other Senators anyway ahead of you who have 22 requested to speak, so it would be entirely out 23 of the normal practice for me to bypass these 11097 1 other seven Senators and give you the floor. 2 So with your permission, I would 3 like to proceed with the list. Senator Abate is 4 next. Then we have Senator Cook and Senator 5 Oppenheimer, Senator Marchi, Senator Goodman, 6 Senator Spano, Senator Maltese, Senator Saland 7 and then you. So if you could hold that 8 question until your time, I would appreciate it. 9 Senator Abate, the floor is 10 yours. 11 SENATOR ABATE: On the bill. I 12 have listened very carefully to the debate, and 13 I do not in any way question the good intentions 14 of the sponsor, but I believe this legislation 15 will produce unfortunate results not just to the 16 young women but to their families, the medical 17 profession and also to the judges and the system 18 of the Family Court. 19 I speak in opposition to this 20 bill not just as a legislator but as a parent of 21 an adolescent and also someone who is many years 22 beyond adolescence, but I can remember my years 23 of adolescence as a young woman, and while 11098 1 everyone on this floor agrees that we need to 2 encourage better communication between children 3 and their families and that we want to foster 4 good relationships between children and their 5 families, but we have to understand that that 6 communication, that bonding between a child and 7 a parent comes about through many years of 8 fostering a trusting, loving and supportive 9 relationship, and no bill that we pass in this 10 Legislature that mandates better communication, 11 better love, better support, will produce that 12 result. Communication is learned at home. It 13 is built over time. It cannot be improved 14 through legislation. 15 I think we also have to look at 16 an example. Wisconsin does not have a 17 notification bill and Minnesota has such a 18 bill. Similar populations, and there is a study 19 done to look at which had better communication 20 rates between children and their parents, and 21 the state which does not have a notification 22 bill has a higher rate of communication between 23 the pregnant woman and her parent. That should 11099 1 tell us something. 2 Obviously, as a parent, I very 3 much would like my child to come to me. But I 4 know that as an adolescent, and I can remember 5 that far back and I have a 16-year-old, that 6 they are times of rebellion. They are times of 7 independence, and even though my child will come 8 from a very functional relationship, she may not 9 choose to share this relationship, this 10 pregnancy with me. 11 The one thing I want as a parent, 12 I want to make sure that my child feels free to 13 go to a doctor, that my child has access to the 14 best health care possible and that she does not 15 jeopardize her well-being and health because 16 she's afraid to come to me in the first place. 17 That's what I want from my child. I know in my 18 relationship with my 16-year-old son, it takes 19 years of getting them to be comfortable to talk 20 to their parents. I know that at the age of 14 21 and 15 are the most difficult years, and those 22 are the years where the child is going to be 23 least likely to want to talk to their parents. 11100 1 I would just like to read a 2 letter from a ninth grader that I got from 3 Hunter College High School. It's amazing. It's 4 a very well written letter, and we may say this 5 is such a sophisticated young woman, but I think 6 it points out some of the problems young people 7 have with this bill, and it also points out the 8 problems with the bill. She goes on to tell me 9 why she opposes the bill. 10 She says, "The bill is among the 11 most dangerous legislation which faces young 12 women like myself. It strips us of our rights 13 by implying that we are not mentally capable of 14 making important decisions on our own. It also 15 puts teenagers seeking abortions in very 16 dangerous situations because many girls must 17 face severely abusive parents who will beat them 18 or throw them out if they're aware of the 19 situation. I myself have friends, for one 20 reason or another, could never tell their 21 parents if they got pregnant. Family 22 communication cannot be forced and a situation 23 like this will certainly do nothing to draw a 11101 1 family together. 2 "In addition, this bill will 3 scare younger women away from safe, licensed 4 health care facilities and into dangerous and 5 unsanitary back alleys where abortions are 6 deadly. Especially for young women who are not 7 ready financially or emotionally to have a 8 child, it is crucial we be allowed to make a 9 decision not to bear a child. If you think that 10 we're not ready to make a decision on our own 11 we're certainly not ready to raise children." 12 So this young woman points out 13 that there are many reasons a child will not 14 talk to her parent. She may not want to 15 disappoint her parent, may not want to hurt the 16 parent -- I'm talking about functional 17 environments -- may not want to face their 18 anger. 19 And let's not ignore that many 20 young women come from dysfunctional families, 21 from hostile environments either from drugs or 22 alcohol, or from abusive family situations. 23 These statistics were heard earlier today, but 11102 1 they bear being repeated. Keep in mind pregnant 2 women under 14, of that category, 74 percent are 3 victims of incest or rape. Over 60 percent of 4 these young pregnant women who are under 15 are 5 victims of incest or rape. 6 So what we need to do is, as a 7 society, hope that young people -- and the 8 statistics show that most young people will 9 speak with their families, but they won't speak 10 with two sets of parents. They will only 11 usually speak with their mother. That is the 12 reality. This is a very emotional situation. 13 If it is emotional for us on this floor and it's 14 sensitive to us on this floor and many of us are 15 well over the age of 16, you can imagine what 16 it's like for an adolescent young woman who is 17 struggling with a very dramatic decision, 18 getting used to the idea that she's becoming an 19 adult. Obviously, there is going to be 20 tremendous fear about facing their parent around 21 this issue. 22 I think there's another issue 23 that has not been raised today, and I believe 11103 1 that parental notification will jeopardize in 2 some cases a young woman's health because it 3 will increase the delays if she does, in fact, 4 want to seek an abortion. 5 First, the young woman has to 6 realize she's pregnant. Many women are not 7 aware at this age what it means to be pregnant, 8 and she will maybe go through denial a number of 9 months, hope that her menstruation is late; and 10 the longer she delays, obviously, she puts her 11 health at risk. She will maybe delay it knowing 12 that she has to talk to her parents because she 13 won't have the courage. That will be another 14 factor for the delay; and then if she finds out 15 -- and I think it will be very difficult, 16 because this is a young woman who is afraid to 17 face her family, she's going to be even more 18 afraid to go into Family Court. 19 But let's say she does decide to 20 go into Family Court. The delays in the 21 decision could also cause another 39 days. If 22 she decides, and she's wealthy or she can borrow 23 the money, that she doesn't want to go into 11104 1 Family Court and she cannot talk to her parents, 2 she will seek an abortion in a number of ways. 3 If she can afford it, she will go to another 4 state and travel. If she cannot afford it, and 5 that will be the case with many women, she will 6 seek an illegal abortion, and we know what that 7 does. We've seen a history of young women being 8 harmed, not able to bear children in the future 9 and people dying because of illegal abortions. 10 Let me state again, as a parent, 11 what I want ultimately is to develop a 12 relationship where my child feels comfortable in 13 talking with me, and I know that no legislation 14 will produce that kind of communication, and the 15 most important thing is I would not want my 16 young daughter, because she's afraid to talk to 17 me or she's afraid to go to the Family Court, to 18 not get good health care and seek an unsafe 19 abortion. 20 Now, let's ask ourselves, why do 21 so many of these groups oppose this bill, the 22 American Academy of Pediatrics, the American 23 College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, 11105 1 Family Planning Advocates, the Medical Society 2 of New York, the National Association of Social 3 Workers, the Nurses Association, New York State 4 Public Health Association, Planned Parenthood? 5 I think there is a reason. They 6 are concerned about the health of the young 7 woman, but I think they are also concerned that 8 we are now talking about doctors being 9 prosecuted and facing criminal charges and the 10 ultimate result, are we driving women away from 11 health care and also are we creating a 12 disincentive for doctors to being involved in 13 this field altogether? Will doctors want to be 14 involved in family planning and prenatal care 15 and gynecological services because now they are 16 going to be facing criminal prosecution? 17 I mean doctors complain all the 18 time about malpractice and high insurance. Are 19 we now going to put a chilling effect -- which I 20 think not only is this an anti-choice bill but 21 it's an anti-medical care bill because we are 22 putting young women at risk and now saying to 23 the doctors, "Let's think twice before we even 11106 1 want to get involved in this field." 2 I do not believe judicial bypass 3 will work. The judges, the Women's Bar 4 Association and the Association of Judges of the 5 Family Court said that this won't make any 6 sense, particularly in Family Court where the 7 dockets are already overcongested. They do not 8 have the resources in an emergency way to take 9 on these cases, and the Association of Judges of 10 the Family Court correctly suggested the 11 decision whether a minor is mature enough to 12 decide whether to carry a pregnancy to term is 13 one best left to the pregnant young woman and 14 the physician to whom she has entrusted her care 15 rather than to a judge unfamiliar with her 16 situation. 17 And let's not forget that many of 18 these family courts are not anonymous courts. 19 If you go into small communities and rural 20 communities, we're saying to that young woman, 21 "Okay, you may not have the courage to face 22 your parents but go into a public setting and 23 risk confidentiality and risk the fact that you 11107 1 may be pregnant and go into Family Court" - 2 this is an open setting -- "and declare to the 3 world what your situation is." It's unrealistic 4 for the 14- and 15-year-old to say, "I won't 5 talk to my parents but I will go to Family 6 Court." 7 It will create delays. It will 8 be a great deal of cost. The judges will be put 9 in a very difficult situation. Will they have 10 enough information at hand to make this 11 decision? 12 A week ago, we debated a bill 13 around the Juvenile Offender Law, and many 14 people stood up and said 12- and 13- and 15 14-year-olds should be held responsible for 16 their actions. If they commit criminal acts, 17 they should be treated as adults. Now, we have 18 a double standard. We're saying that young 19 women with the advice of their physicians can't 20 consent to an abortion without notifying their 21 parents and, on the other hand, two weeks ago, 22 we said, "Let's make sure these young people" - 23 and we're not talking about 14- and 11108 1 15-year-olds; we were talking about 11-, 12- and 2 13-year-olds -- "Let's treat them as adults 3 because they are responsible human beings." 4 There's inconsistency with that argument. 5 So, in conclusion, I understand 6 that this is an emotional issue, and I think 7 there are a lot of good intentions because many 8 of us are reacting to this bill as parents 9 because we want to be involved in our children's 10 decisions, that we do not want our children to 11 make a decision at 14 and 15 that they will 12 regret later on in their lives. 13 If I thought for an instant that 14 would produce and this legislation would produce 15 the kind of family relationships we would all 16 like to see in an ideal world, I might consider 17 this. We need to put foremost in our agenda 18 protecting the health of that young woman, 19 making sure she seeks a healthy relationship 20 with her physician, that she does not seek an 21 illegal abortion. 22 And let's not overburden a Family 23 Court and doctors who are already trying to 11109 1 provide decent health care. Let's not over 2 burden those systems with a piece of legislation 3 that may look good to some but, in fact, is 4 really anti-choice and will produce terrible 5 results for so many people. 6 Thank you. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Cook. 9 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 10 Everyone who has spoken deserves to be 11 complimented on the high level of this debate, 12 and I hope that I might be forgiven if I break 13 the spirit a bit, but I do think that time has 14 come for a bit of candor because this is not a 15 bill about parents' rights. It's a bill about 16 stopping abortions. 17 It's a bill about using the state 18 as a weapon whereby parents can punish children 19 who disobey their wishes. It's about forcing 20 13-, 14-, 15-year-old girls to bear the 21 consequences of their acts by forcing them to 22 carry to term pregnancies to teach them a lesson 23 that sin doesn't pay. 11110 1 Unfortunately, the bill won't 2 work on any of these counts. This bill would 3 really prevent abortions, and I might be tempted 4 and other people might be tempted to vote for 5 it. If the bill would really force children to 6 talk to their parents, I might be tempted to 7 vote for it, but the bill won't do either. 8 It is interesting to note that 9 when you read this bill, you go through the 10 entire first half of the bill, and they never 11 talk about the person who is involved. They 12 never talk about the girl. They talk about the 13 physician. They talk about what procedures you 14 are going to use to get this notification out. 15 They talk about the parents. They never talk 16 about the girl. 17 The girl's the one who's 18 pregnant. The girl's the one who's got this 19 problem that she's got to deal with, not the 20 parents, not the doctor. Why don't we focus on 21 the girl, on the problem that she's trying to 22 deal with? 23 This is not about a girl who can 11111 1 talk to her parents about alternatives. If she 2 were in that kind of a family situation, then 3 there would be no need for the state to 4 intervene and to force that discussion to take 5 place. If that relationship of trust really 6 exists, the first person that the girl would go 7 to would be her parents. No, on the contrary, 8 this bill attempts to force by the power of the 9 state a relationship that can only exist within 10 a family if it's been nurtured since the time of 11 birth. 12 The girl who trusts her parents 13 and knows that they will always be there will go 14 to them when she needs them. If she knows that 15 they are the kind of parents who will be 16 sensitive to her needs and to her problems, more 17 than whether or not she's obeyed the rules, then 18 she's going to go to those parents. She's going 19 to go to them and seek their guidance and their 20 counsel. 21 What this bill is about is the 22 13- to 14- to 15-year-old girl caught in 23 desperation between an unwanted pregnancy, 11112 1 facing parents who she knows will never consent 2 or support her in an abortion. That desperate 3 girl will, if this bill is passed, have only one 4 option, an illegal or a self-induced abortion. 5 Laws legalizing abortion were not 6 passed as a moral judgment. They were not 7 passed to prevent girls and women -- I'm sorry. 8 They were passed to prevent girls and women from 9 dying as a result of unsupervised and 10 unregulated abortions. This bill forces young 11 teenage girls back to those bad old days when 12 they only had the back room abortionist at their 13 disposal. 14 This bill will be a boon to the 15 black market. The abortion pill was not around 16 when abortion used to be illegal. That pill 17 will now be available on street corners for a 18 few hundred dollars. Those pills are supposed 19 to be administered in a clinic in three 20 successive visits. Desperate young girls may 21 well assume that they can buy those pills and 22 take them all at once and subject themselves to 23 some very grave consequences. 11113 1 This is the new health dimension 2 that's been added since abortion was first 3 legalized, and it does not remove the prospect 4 of all the other old, crude means of 5 self-induced abortion that have been used 6 through the years. 7 Mr. President, the irony of this 8 bill is that, if it were passed, the most likely 9 and tragic result perhaps would fall upon some 10 parent who today is probably a fervent proponent 11 of this bill. In the mistaken expectation that 12 by changing the law they will take away the 13 desperation that causes a girl to seek an 14 abortion, they are forcing their own daughters 15 into the very situation where those daughters 16 will seek an abortion by some unsafe method. 17 I will cry with them when that 18 tragedy strikes their daughter, but I will not 19 be able to take away from them the feeling of 20 guilt that they will carry that, by trying to 21 use the law as a weapon to discipline their 22 daughter, they have brought their daughter, whom 23 they love, into pain and to suffering and 11114 1 perhaps even death that will happen when she 2 makes a desperate decision to have an abortion 3 outside the protection of regulation that is 4 provided by law for a safe procedure. 5 It's been said that the road to 6 hell is paved with good intentions. I only hope 7 that no one within the sound of my voice will 8 have to endure the hell of knowing that their 9 efforts have contributed to the death of someone 10 that they love. 11 Thank you. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 13 recognizes Senator Oppenheimer. 14 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you. 15 Thank you, Senator Cook. Now I 16 know why I admire you so much, Senator Cook. 17 I'm going to try and cut down 18 what I want to say to just three or four minutes 19 because I know we are pretty pressured, so I'm 20 just going to list a few of the things that are 21 problematic to me, and then I want to spend a 22 couple of minutes talking about what the 23 experience has been and what the judges say in 11115 1 Minnesota and Massachusetts where the parental 2 consent judicial waiver has been in effect since 3 1981. 4 Problems that I have: I agree 5 with Senator Cook. I think all these laws that 6 have been drafted concerning parental 7 notification have been drafted by anti-choice 8 people, and their intent truly is to end 9 abortion if they could, but, of course, it's the 10 law of the land and so they can't. But it seems 11 that these very people, while they cannot change 12 the law of the land, seem intent on depriving 13 the free choice to young citizens and to poor 14 citizens. 15 And, in the bill, I would say 16 that the legislation requiring that both 17 biological parents be notified is unrealistic 18 and grossly inappropriate considering today's 19 society, and, indeed, would probably preclude 20 the option to the young person to get the 21 notification to both, since invariably one or 22 the other is not available. 23 There is no exception in this 11116 1 bill for cases of incest or family violence or 2 children in foster care or children living in 3 dysfunctional families. 4 There seems to be an assumption 5 that teenagers are going around willy-nilly 6 getting abortions. The fact is that we know 7 that children under the age of 16, for the most 8 part, maybe 80 percent of them, do contact one 9 parent, so that the vast majority of unmarried 10 teens do tell a parent. 11 In many cases, as has been 12 mentioned, sexual abuse is involved with these 13 youngsters. The fact is that 74 percent of the 14 women who have had intercourse before the age of 15 14 have had it through involuntary sex, and it's 16 a little bit less -- it's 60 percent for those 17 15 and younger. So this is not a choice that 18 they have made with their knowledge willingly. 19 It has all been involuntarily. 20 Another fact that we should note 21 is that -- and why we should be doing everything 22 to help these teens who choose not to become 23 parents because they feel that they are too 11117 1 immature or too poor or, for a variety of 2 reasons, feel that they are not in a position to 3 accept parenthood -- we should note a University 4 of Utah study that has recently been concluded 5 which involved 130,000 pregnant teens. 6 Actually, they were mostly from 7 middle-class white families, and there was a 8 very interesting determination made because many 9 felt that one of the reasons that these young 10 teens had babies that were born premature or of 11 low birth weight or having various problems, 12 medical problems, it was thought that possibly 13 that was due to the fact that these youngsters 14 who were bearing the children were poor, had no 15 medical care, a variety of reasons usually 16 involving poverty. This study was done on 17 youngsters who were, for the most part, white 18 and of middle income or higher circumstances in 19 life, and it was found that the children were 20 still being born premature and still being born 21 of low birth weight, and what was concluded in 22 this study was that -- and it was a pretty broad 23 study of 130,000 young women. 11118 1 What was concluded was it really 2 was the nature of the age of the young woman 3 rather than her socioeconomic status. It was 4 felt that the young woman's body was maturing 5 and was still growing and due to the fact that 6 her bones were developing and the calcium was 7 needed for her body, as well as other factors 8 involved in maturation, that it was being 9 deprived to the infant, to the fetus; and for 10 that reason it was quite an interesting study. 11 It was just completed, and it shows what we all 12 know, that really youngsters who are more like 13 babies should not be having babies because they 14 are simply experiencing at that age a maturation 15 of their own bodies. 16 Certainly we all believe that 17 parental involvement should be encouraged. But 18 in families where there's violence or incest or 19 alcoholism or drug abuse, it is simply more 20 harmful to all to involve the parents. 21 Very often, the child feels that 22 she would do an irreparable harm to her parents 23 if the parents knew and, therefore, out of 11119 1 filial obligations, she feels she can not tell 2 her parents, and that's why these -- these laws 3 are so harmful. They turn the vulnerable, 4 pregnant young woman away from the very medical 5 help and assistance, the professionals, that 6 should be there to assist her, and this fact was 7 recognized by the New York State Legislature in 8 past years when there were laws enacted to 9 remove the barriers to timely treatment of 10 minors who had sexually transmissible diseases, 11 needed HIV testing or a plan to carry a 12 pregnancy to term. 13 In all three circumstances, 14 Public Health Law allows minors to consent for 15 their own health care in these circumstances 16 with no parental notification, and that, we have 17 found, avoids the harmful delays which this law 18 would produce. 19 Now, let me turn, just for 20 another minute, to these two states that do have 21 the judicial waiver. It's been found that these 22 laws have not discouraged sexual activity in 23 Massachusetts or Minnesota, which have a long 11120 1 history. It's like fifteen years now with this 2 law, and that that only increased the number of 3 late abortions. Those abortions, of course, 4 were carried out in neighboring states, where 5 there were no parental consent laws. 6 Research comparing Minnesota with 7 Wisconsin -- and Wisconsin doesn't have a 8 restrictive law -- showed that pregnant teens in 9 both states notified their parents at exactly 10 the same rate. Minnesota's law, therefore, did 11 not increase parental notification and, of 12 course, as many of us are aware, you can not 13 legislate communication between children and 14 parents. It's something that has to be 15 developed at a young age and through a very 16 supportive environment within the family 17 proper. 18 Let me turn just for a moment to 19 what the judges have said, and these are the 20 people who are the most knowledgeable. Of 21 course, they have been hearing these cases now 22 in Minnesota and Massachusetts for the last 23 fifteen years. 11121 1 Let's see. Minnesota state court 2 judge Alan Oleski has heard over 1,000 parental 3 notification petitions. He characterized his 4 function, quote, "like a routine clerical 5 function on my part, just like putting my seal 6 and stamp on it." He stated that minors were 7 subjected to stress by the court procedure; 8 moreover, he believed that the statute dissuaded 9 some minors from having abortions because they 10 feared going to court in a distant city. 11 Another judge named Gerald Martin 12 stated that he did not, quote, "perceive any 13 useful public purpose in what I am doing in 14 these cases." 15 Another judge, Judge Garrity, who 16 had adjudicated the same type of bypass 17 petitions in Massachusetts testified that these 18 laws accomplish nothing. Quote, "It just gives 19 these kids a rough time. I can't think it 20 accomplishes a darn thing. I think it basically 21 erects another barrier to abortion." 22 Similarly, public defenders 23 testified the law served no beneficial purpose 11122 1 for youngsters. It just created an additional 2 hurdle. 3 The guardians ad litem did not 4 even know what purpose they served in the 5 process. 6 It was the unanimous opinion of 7 health professionals who work with minors in 8 Minnesota that the law did not and could not 9 serve its purported purposes of promoting family 10 communication, helping decision-making of minors 11 and helping with medical treatment. 12 Dr. Hogson concluded, and he was, 13 of course, the person who brought the case, "I 14 honestly think there is no benefit whatsoever." 15 The law created nothing but problems for her 16 teenage patients. 17 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Farley, why do you rise? 20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I'm about 21 to finish. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 23 me, Senator Oppenheimer. 11123 1 SENATOR FARLEY: Could I ask 2 Senator Oppenheimer a question? There's about 3 seven or eight people that would like to speak 4 to this bill who are not going to have the 5 opportunity to do it. They will probably have 6 to explain their votes because there's probably 7 going to be a request that the two-hour limit be 8 invoked. 9 You know, I would ask that you'd 10 kind of summarize what you are going to say 11 because I know I'm not going to be able to speak 12 to the bill. I'm going to have to only explain 13 my vote, and I would appreciate a little 14 courtesy. 15 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Okay. I 16 have - 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Oppenheimer, excuse me just a minute. 19 Senator Stachowski, why do you 20 rise? 21 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 22 President, I understand Senator Farley's point 23 to Senator Oppenheimer. However, I might remind 11124 1 you that the two-hour rule on the Senate rules 2 is merely that you can ask for the debate to end 3 at two hours. It's not necessarily the rule 4 that the debate automatically ends at two hours. 5 SENATOR FARLEY: That's true. 6 It's going to be asked for, though. 7 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: If the 8 Majority Leader wants to let his members speak 9 on this bill, that's the Majority Leader's 10 prerogative, and that's not really Senator 11 Oppenheimer's part one way or another. 12 So if Senator Farley has a 13 problem with not being able to speak, I mean he 14 should take that up with the Majority Leader on 15 this particular issue, since there doesn't seem 16 to be a whole lot more on this calendar. Then 17 it wouldn't be a major problem to let each of 18 these members speak on this bill, since it is a 19 rather emotionally-driven and important issue to 20 the various members who choose to stand up and 21 speak on it. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 23 you, Senator Stachowski. 11125 1 Senator Oppenheimer, you have the 2 floor. 3 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I will be 4 happy to wrap this up. 5 Although the judicial bypass is 6 supposed to be confidential, I would like to 7 note that in Minnesota, teenagers who went to 8 court to get permission for an abortion had to 9 deal with as many as 23 strangers who knew their 10 first names and knew why they were there, and in 11 Massachusetts the judicial bypass process 12 delayed the abortions of teenagers who had to 13 use it by an average of -- well, the range went 14 up to 39 days, and that made the abortions much 15 more medically concerning. 16 It was found -- and I will say 17 this in conclusion -- that many of the pregnant 18 teens who did find it impossible to involve 19 their parents, they had -- it was found in the 20 courts in both states that they really had 21 substantial reasons, and they were sustained in 22 most every instance because they simply could 23 not tell a mentally ill mother or a drug abusing 11126 1 father of their condition, so their cases were 2 sustained. 3 So I think this is the wrong 4 direction to be going and tells the youngsters 5 in our state that we really don't care about 6 their health and their well-being; and that when 7 they say they are too young and immature to 8 handle this, that we don't believe that they 9 know that they are immature, even though we say 10 they are immature. 11 Thank you. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 13 recognizes Senator Marchi. 14 SENATOR MARCHI: Mr. President, I 15 will be brief. I will not yield to questions in 16 the interest of saving time, but it is an 17 important issue that we are addressing. I don't 18 think there are very many more important issues 19 that we will face in the year 1995 than this 20 issue. 21 I don't accept some of the 22 characterizations and determinations that we've 23 made on the attitude of the average family when 11127 1 faced with this situation. I believe that we 2 tend to go to dramatic extremes in defense of a 3 policy which shields a child with the protection 4 of a family. If you're going to have an 5 aspirin, if you're going to have any kind of 6 procedure performed, this is law in the state of 7 New York. 8 Yet we say that there's something 9 special about this circumstance that should 10 impede and raise the law of separation between 11 that child and their parents. If the family is 12 not dysfunctional, it is an important consider 13 ation. As a parent, as a grandfather of 14 daughters and as a father of daughters, I would 15 never -- and they're all past the age of 16, I 16 would never have wanted to be in a situation 17 where I didn't know because the law and the 18 public policy of this state prevented me from 19 knowing, not from my own child who may have been 20 confused and sorely beset by the circumstances, 21 but by public policy which precludes the doctor 22 from telling me so, so that I can be of help. 23 To preclude us from helping in those situations 11128 1 is an anomaly, I think, when we -- when we 2 consider all of the facts that we use to protect 3 children. 4 I have here the Domestic 5 Relations Law: If it shall appear upon the 6 application of applicants as provided in this 7 section -- and this is applicants to become 8 married -- that either party is at least 16 9 years of age but under 18 years, the clerk shall 10 not issue the license unless there is a written 11 permission from both parents. 12 Five years ago we took off again, 13 if the child is under 16, if under the age 16 14 years the town or county clerk shall require, in 15 addition to any consent the written approval of 16 the consent of a justice of the Supreme Court or 17 the Family Court. 18 So that there is nothing -- there 19 is nothing un-American or unusual to have the 20 family participate and be -- and exercise its 21 responsibility with reference to their 22 children. If all of those ugly things, the back 23 door illegal abortions are being performed as a 11129 1 result of, or would be the result if this law 2 was enacted, I invite your attention to the fact 3 that there are over 30 states that do this 4 already and the air is not redolent nor do we 5 have any great spate of information coming with 6 bills of particulars about the outrageous 7 circumstances that are besetting people living 8 in the great majority of the areas of this 9 country. 10 They live with this law. They're 11 not having back door and illegal abortions as a 12 result, and to assume otherwise, I think, is to 13 weigh the scales very heavily against the 14 family, against -- who are the primary guaran 15 tors unless they are utterly dysfunctional, of 16 the welfare of their children. 17 I would recommend a vote that's 18 consistent with everything that we do with 19 respect to being protective of our children, 20 including the age in which a lot of things take 21 place, voting and drinking and going to war and 22 whatever. This is even more sacrosanct. It 23 involves their life, their very lives, and no 11130 1 one cares more about the lives of those 2 children, no bureaucrat cares more, no doctor 3 cares more than the parent. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Goodman. 6 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President, 7 this has been a far-reaching multi-faceted 8 debate and most of the technical aspects of this 9 have been discussed in full, but I would like to 10 share with you what I regard as the critical 11 problem relating to this bill. 12 It can be summed up, my good 13 friends, in two sentences. 14 Sentence number 1: "If my father 15 knew, he would kill me." 16 Sentence number 2: "If I tell my 17 father, it may kill him." 18 In those two sentences we have a 19 simple summation of the reaction of a young 20 woman who finds herself with an unwanted 21 pregnancy, who is reluctant because she may have 22 been abused by her parents, she may be the 23 victim of incest. She may be the victim of 11131 1 parental rape, or she may have a father with a 2 heart condition or a sensitive parent whom she 3 dreads the prospect of sharing this sad news 4 with, and, Mr. President, whichever the case may 5 be, we find the fundamental defect in this 6 bill. 7 Now, let me just say I have the 8 deepest respect for the sincerity of those on 9 the other side of this question. It seems 10 manifest that any parent would want to know if a 11 child underwent -- underwent an abortion and, 12 Senator Marchi, with his usual passion and 13 luminous debating skill, made clear what the 14 issue is here. 15 But I respectfully submit to you, 16 my colleagues, that what we are talking about 17 here is, in no sense, a normal family 18 situation. We're talking about a possible - 19 about a possible eight to ten percent of the 20 children who are pregnant, not the normal 21 American home which we see happily depicted in 22 Walt Disney movies, not the wonderful loving 23 interrelationship between parents who undergo 11132 1 crises with their children. 2 We are speaking of homes in which 3 there is a situation of social pathology. We 4 are speaking of homes in a situation where a 5 child does not either have any identifiable 6 parent or may only have one parent or may have 7 one adult parent so sociologically ill that they 8 are incapable of rational discourse with their 9 child about this very personal problem. 10 It is these people who seek to go 11 outside the scope of parental guidance and 12 judgment to shift for themselves forcibly. They 13 don't want to do it; they have to do it. Mr. 14 President, just stop and think for a moment. 15 It's very hard for us to identify with these 16 people because, thank God, most of us come from 17 fairly normal homes, but there are people who 18 live in circumstances not only related to 19 poverty but emotional poverty, if you will, who 20 simply cannot communicate in the normal fashion 21 and it is with these people that we must 22 identify for purposes of understanding the true 23 implications of this legislation. 11133 1 Mr. President, I would also like 2 to dwell very briefly upon the obvious fact that 3 the assurances we're given that judicial 4 intervention will cover the situation as being 5 grossly inadequate. I read you briefly from a 6 memorandum of the Women's Bar Association of the 7 state of New York. To obtain a judicial order, 8 a pregnant mother would have to appear 9 personally in Family Court and establish that 10 she is mature or that the requested abortion 11 would be in her best interests. 12 The bill does not permit the 13 Family Court judge to rule expeditiously from 14 the bench but, instead, requires preparation of 15 an order with written and specific factual 16 findings and legal conclusions supporting the 17 decision. 18 The bill fixes no deadline for 19 completion of the written opinion and 20 establishes no procedure whereby the minor would 21 be notified confidentially that the order had 22 been filed. 23 Senator Abate very adequately 11134 1 described the plight of a young woman who must 2 go into a town Family Court to discuss this 3 problem. The degree of public scrutiny to which 4 this is exposed renders it almost impossible for 5 any emotionally sensitive child to be able, if 6 not willing, to go into a court under these 7 circumstances. 8 The court also offers no remedy 9 whatsoever. It is simply a fiction that any 10 youngster below the age of 16 has the capacity 11 to undertake complex litigation. What is this 12 child, a Philadelphia lawyer imbued with some 13 rare capacity to handle things which even adults 14 find mystifying and confusing? This is patently 15 preposterous. 16 I would also bring to your 17 attention a very technical memorandum from Judge 18 Leo Milonas, the Chief Administrative Court 19 Judge, who points out that there are numerous 20 defects in this matter in that there are no 21 adequate spellings out of the type of proof that 22 must be offered. I won't burden you with all 23 the details of this, but I'd simply say to you 11135 1 that it is evident from all of the judicial 2 authority, the Family Court experts, the Family 3 Court judges themselves, that the court option 4 is no option at all. 5 This brings us back to the 6 fundamental question: What about the parent and 7 child? How easy it is to superficially consider 8 that any child would, of course, if he's going 9 to consult a parent about a toothache or about a 10 fractured limb, would obviously have the same 11 relationship with respect to an abortion. 12 But, if we stop to think about 13 this for a moment, this, too, is an absolute 14 fiction. It's inoperative. It doesn't work 15 that way in the families where the youngster and 16 the parents are already set apart by innumerable 17 social forces which prevent any realistic degree 18 of communication. This is simply absurd. It 19 doesn't happen. 20 What is the child to do? The 21 father may have committed incest, as I've said, 22 or there may indeed have been violence visited 23 on the child or, even more pertinent in this 11136 1 case, the fear of violence. 2 Now, Senator Padavan, you have 3 outlined this with your usual debating skill and 4 to take the pure -- puristic approach which you 5 have posited before us makes this seem a very 6 simple matter because one would simply say, of 7 course, parents must know, have a right to know 8 and, in all probability, would be sympathetic 9 and good and helpful to the child, but in many 10 families the parent is the enemy of the child 11 and that's the sad social truth which we have 12 failed to grasp in this discussion. The parent 13 is the enemy of its own offspring. 14 How is this possible? Well, it's 15 possible because, in the first place, the child 16 itself now grown to sufficient maturity to bear 17 its own child may have been unwanted and may be 18 resented from birth, or it may be that there are 19 certain economic circumstances which make the 20 relationship of the child intolerable to the 21 parent or perhaps the child has psychological 22 problems of its own and has acted out and has 23 caused the parent grief, whether due to failure 11137 1 in school or due to inac... certain types of 2 inactivity or hyperactivity in his social 3 pathology spread all across the map on this, but 4 it's not evident to a group of people who wear 5 suits and neckties and sit in the most beautiful 6 chamber in the world to discuss these matters. 7 We are above the smoke of battle. We are not 8 able to be imbued with the perception which 9 permits us to place ourselves in the position of 10 the people most in need of our comprehension of 11 their difficulty. 12 Mr. President, let's be very 13 practical about what's going on here. This is a 14 one-house bill. This bill will not pass in the 15 Assembly. The Speaker has made it clear that he 16 will not permit this bill to come to the floor 17 of the Assembly, so we know that what we're 18 indulging in today is essentially an exercise in 19 futility, but it has its uses because it does 20 permit us in, I think, a most mature, perhaps 21 lucid, fashion in this debate to once again 22 bring forward some of the more abstruse aspects 23 of this problem. 11138 1 I respectfully submit to you, Mr. 2 President, and to everyone within the sound of 3 my voice that the proper answer to this is for 4 us to try to achieve that degree of maturity 5 within ourselves which permits us to understand 6 and identify with the difficulties which a 7 minority of our population suffer from in this 8 regard. 9 To the child who can't 10 communicate with the parent, to the child who 11 says, "My father would kill me if he knew," or 12 to the child who says, "This would kill my 13 father or mother if he or she knew," we must 14 lend sympathetic understanding, and it's on that 15 simple proposition that I urge the house to re 16 consider and to defeat this ill-advised motion. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 18 would note that Senator Spano is next on the 19 list, but he elected not to speak. Also 20 Senators Montgomery and Mendez have removed 21 their names from those wishing to speak at this 22 time. 23 Senator Maltese. 11139 1 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President, 2 I'll be brief and not take advantage of the 3 opportunity to explain my vote at that time. 4 I think I've listened to all the 5 debate and have listened to my colleagues on 6 both sides of this issue. I share the belief of 7 -- expressed by my good colleague, Senator 8 Goodman, that in some cases there are members of 9 this chamber who are in some type of a 10 cloistered or ivory tower, but I feel it is 11 those who are on the other side of this issue. 12 I do not believe that we give aid and comfort to 13 society as a whole or individuals in difficult 14 situations by taking either the path of least 15 resistance or perhaps retreating behind the 16 argument that this is an exercise in futility 17 since it appears to be a one-house vote -- a 18 one-house bill. That has not prevented us in 19 the past from taking positions on issues of 20 conscience or morality or even of good 21 government. 22 This is a simple matter. It is a 23 matter that rises or falls on the question of 11140 1 whether children of 12 or 13 or 14 or 15 up to 2 16 can have the maturity of judgment to 3 undertake a procedure which will have a -- with 4 all reports, and experts indicate that they will 5 have psychological, mental and physical problems 6 in the future. This is a very difficult 7 decision, and when does it take place? It takes 8 place under conditions of all types of stress, 9 the conditions that members on both sides of the 10 aisle have enumerated. This is not a value 11 judgment made after due deliberation in 12 solitude. This is a decision made under 13 pressure, and who better than parents are in a 14 position to offer advice, counsel and the 15 benefit of their judgment? 16 Yes, there are dysfunctional 17 families. Yes, there are parents who have 18 caused many of these evils and who have taken 19 tragic advantage of their own children, but 20 fortunately those are still few and far between 21 no matter what surveys or estimates that are 22 made by people on either side. 23 In the ordinary case what we are 11141 1 asking, those of us that support this bill, is 2 that a child, a child is able to secure the 3 input of a parent, the parent who, I might add, 4 in most cases would bear the burden of the 5 medical expenses if something goes wrong. 6 I'm not, other than -- I'm not 7 stressing, although I share the dismay of 8 Senator Padavan at Dawn Ravenell in our county, 9 the 13-year-old girl who, in making that fatal 10 trip to the abortion clinic, was taking her 11 first trip on the New York State -- the New York 12 City subway. 13 With that in mind, I'd like to 14 say briefly some of -- and not repeating the 15 arguments of some of my colleagues. What are we 16 talking about? I notice that some of the -- my 17 colleagues on the other side of the question 18 keep referring to these children as "young 19 women". In most cases, they are 12, 13, 14, 20 15-year-old children. 21 We have made a decision in order 22 to bring this question before the house and 23 after due deliberation, to lower that age. 11142 1 There was some merit in some of the arguments on 2 17- and 18-year-olds, but it's interesting too, 3 to allude to the argument of one of my 4 colleagues that now miraculously she is -- she 5 indicates that there is inconsistency in our 6 position, but miraculously where we would take 7 away the responsibility of those same youthful 8 offenders that now they are -- they have been 9 given the mantle of responsibility because this 10 is a different question. 11 What are 13, 14 -- what do these 12 children do? Many of them are under -- going 13 through their Holy Confirmation at 13. They're 14 doing their bar mitzvahs or bat mitzvahs. 15 They're beginning puberty, a very difficult time 16 at best, acne problems, entering high school, at 17 13 the eighth grade, 14 the ninth grade. 18 I ask some of my colleagues to 19 think back, if they can think back that far, and 20 I look at it from the vantage point of some 62 21 years and find it difficult, but I ask my staff 22 and myself to speak to some of the youngsters of 23 13, 14 and 15. What are the books they're 11143 1 doing? They're hanging out at the mall. 2 They're rollerskating, they're bowling. They 3 can't be admitted legally to an "R" rated 4 movie. They're involved in school sports, first 5 dates, group dates, school dances. They're 6 taking school field trips. They're taking a 7 foreign language, perhaps for the first time. 8 They're studying algebra. They're reading Pride 9 and Prejudice, To Kill a Mocking Bird, Old 10 Yeller, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Anne 11 of the Green Gables. They're going to the 12 circus. They're joining the Girl Scouts. 13 They're going to 4-H. They're doing Nintendo 14 games. They can't buy cigarettes until they're 15 18, and they can't get a learner's permit until 16 they're 16. 17 I submit they are children and so 18 many of the things that are done or go on in our 19 society rob our children of their youth. What 20 I'm saying in this case, if a child is in an 21 unfortunate situation, in a predicament that 22 they simply don't know where to turn, the place 23 to turn is not these abortion clinics. That is 11144 1 not seeking the advice of a physician who knows 2 something about their medical history or is able 3 to consult with them. They are factories, 4 abortion factories in the main, that offer 5 nothing besides a cheap and easy abortion at 6 this very, very sensitive time in a young girl's 7 life. 8 We in the Legislature have an 9 obligation to provide that at least in those 10 cases where appropriate, a parent should be 11 notified so that they can offer some aid and 12 comfort to their child. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Saland. 15 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 16 President. 17 Mr. President, I had initially 18 anticipated a series of questions for the 19 sponsor. What I would like to do is avoid 20 having to do that and perhaps comment about some 21 of the things that were my concerns in this 22 bill. There is, however, one relatively 23 innocuous question which totally befuddles me 11145 1 and I must ask the question of Senator Padavan. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Padavan, do you yield to a question from Senator 4 Saland? Senator yields. 5 SENATOR SALAND: The fourth page 6 of the bill, Senator Padavan, paragraph 6, 7 leaves it to the Supreme Court, and I think you 8 made mention to it in response to one of the 9 questions earlier, to promulgate the rules and 10 regulations necessary to assure the proceedings 11 are handled in an expeditious and anonymous 12 manner. 13 I'm just puzzled as to why the 14 Supreme Court inasmuch as the court that has 15 jurisdiction here is the Family Court and your 16 appeal is not to the Supreme Court but to the 17 Appellate Division. Is there a particular 18 reason why, or is that perhaps an oversight in 19 drafting, and should it be the Family Court or 20 the Court of Appeals? 21 SENATOR PADAVAN: It's not an 22 oversight in drafting. It was, in our view, a 23 court that has such broad jurisdiction now in so 11146 1 many areas that it would be the most appropriate 2 level of the judiciary to examine carefully what 3 this legislation is all about and come up with 4 the rules and regulations that would be the 5 basis of implementation, but certainly if 6 someone said, another court, Appellate Division 7 for example, it's not a question in my mind of 8 argumentation, but rather a decision based on 9 our judgment. 10 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, and I 11 would hope that were we to come to an agreement 12 on a bill that might be considered by both 13 houses that you would look a little more 14 carefully and perhaps the court that you would 15 be asking to handle these cases be the partici 16 pant in promulgating the rules and regulations. 17 But let me share some of the 18 things that are, as far as I'm concerned, of 19 greater consequence and things that concern me. 20 As was mentioned a bit earlier by Senator Good 21 man, this is a one-house bill, as has been 22 mentioned during the course of the debate, and I 23 believe Senator Padavan has alluded to it on 11147 1 more than one occasion. 2 The legislative purposes and 3 findings certainly are clear. I'm certainly 4 supportive of those findings and the thing that 5 troubles my perhaps, however, is that I'm not 6 voting merely on the findings; I'm voting on the 7 bill. 8 Now, starting off in the penalty 9 provision, paragraph 5, the penalty provision 10 talks in terms of a person who intentionally 11 performs an abortion with knowledge that or with 12 reckless disregard as to whether the person upon 13 whom the abortion is to be performed is an 14 emancipated minor. 15 Now, I would suggest to you that 16 the only parallel section I can find, and that 17 deals with the subject of "reckless" is the 18 definition section in the Penal Law, section 15 19 of the Penal Law, which defines "recklessly", 20 and "recklessly" is defined as follows: A person 21 acts recklessly with respect to a result or to a 22 circumstances described by statute defining 23 events when he is aware of and consciously 11148 1 disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk 2 that such result will occur. 3 It goes on to say the risk must 4 be of such a nature and degree that disregard 5 thereof constitutes a gross deviation from the 6 standard of conduct that a reasonable person 7 would observe in the situation. 8 This bill attempts to establish a 9 standard of recklessness and yet, as you read 10 further in the bill, it imposes liability and it 11 doesn't distinguish between civil liability and 12 criminal liability where, as follows. It says a 13 person shall not be held liable under this 14 section, if the person establishes by written 15 evidence, whatever that means, that the person 16 relied upon evidence sufficient to convince a 17 careful and prudent person that the representa 18 tions of the pregnant minor regarding 19 information necessary to comply with this 20 section are bona fide and true. 21 Now, there is nowhere in the 22 Penal Law that I have been able to find even 23 after a Lex' Law search, use of "careful and 11149 1 prudent". I can show you instances in the 2 Insurance Law where the term "prudent" is used. 3 There are a number of instances in which there's 4 a requirement of a person who's investing under 5 the Insurance Law to do with a degree of care 6 that an ordinarily prudent individual in a like 7 position would use under similar circumstances. 8 The Insurance Law has a number of references to 9 that. 10 My fear is that we are creating a 11 standard here, a standard that imposes a 12 criminal penalty for which there is no 13 definition, and to go back to some of the 14 comments a bit earlier in the course of Senator 15 Paterson's debate raising the substance of 16 constitutionality, I'm not talking about 17 criminal constitutionality, that's been 18 resolved, but vagueness in a criminal statute 19 particularly in our state with our Court of 20 Appeals lends itself to the prospect of being 21 overruled, and I'm very fearful in the absence 22 of a definition, that we're creating a standard 23 for which a criminal penalty can be imposed and 11150 1 we're not defining that standard, and by going 2 beyond the "reasonable man" or "reasonable 3 person" standard and defining as "careful and 4 prudent" the standard and not "reasonable 5 person", we are requiring an undefined higher 6 standard that will intentionally or 7 unintentionally have the effect of paralyzing 8 physicians who will fear for criminal liability 9 and may have the chilling effect that was 10 alluded to earlier. 11 In the precedent section, 12 coercion prohibited. There is in section 135 of 13 the Penal Law a section that deals with 14 coercion. "Coercion" is defined; there are 15 penalties. I believe there's a misdemeanor 16 section, I'm not quite sure if there's a "D" 17 felony associated as well for the higher 18 degree. 19 This "coercion" section, I can 20 only assume, creates a civil remedy, not a 21 criminal remedy, and we don't describe what 22 courts shall have jurisdiction. In the Article 23 10-A you say that the Family Court will be the 11151 1 court of jurisdiction for purposes of the by 2 pass procedure. We don't know what -- third, we 3 don't know what relief is available; we don't 4 know what penalties, if any, will be imposed and 5 again my assumption is you're not redefining 6 coercion for criminal purposes, but you're 7 attempting to create something civil here. 8 Very, very importantly, reference 9 has been had to this bill as a one-parent 10 notification bill, and I truly believe that that 11 is the intent of the sponsor. I fear, however, 12 that it is more than a one-parent notification 13 bill. I fear it is a two-parent notification 14 bill effectively masquerading as a one-parent 15 bill. We talk about notice being required to a 16 parent, unless -- I'm sorry, the section reads, 17 and even on page 2 of the bill, lines 39 through 18 42, and it reads as follows: Where the minor's 19 parents are divorced or legally separated or one 20 parent is not available to the person performing 21 the abortion or the referring physician in a 22 reasonable time or manner, then the notice to 23 the parent with custody or report to the parent 11152 1 who's available shall be sufficient. 2 Well, again, we're dealing with 3 one of the most difficult subjects, one of the 4 most emotionally packed subjects that we could 5 deal with. Whether you define it as a family 6 rights issue or an abortion issue, the practical 7 application is the same. 8 Availability when we're talking 9 in terms of parents who may not be legally 10 separated or legally divorced, those parents, if 11 their whereabouts are known, one could live on 12 Smith Street, one could live on Main Street, one 13 could live on Central Avenue, one can live on 14 State Street. They're not divorced, and not 15 legally separated. They are nonetheless not 16 living under the same roof. They are not living 17 there as husband and wife as they had 18 previously, but they are the parents of the 19 child. 20 It may well be that the offending 21 parent, the offending parent, someone living out 22 of the household, may have violated this young 23 girl. Under this bill, that person has to get 11153 1 notice. That troubles me as a parent. It 2 troubles me as the chairman of the Children and 3 Families Committee. It troubles me as a human 4 being. I'm deeply troubled by that. 5 I have nothing but the utmost 6 respect for Frank Padavan and what he's 7 attempting to do here. I have always spoken in 8 terms of my support for a parental notification 9 bill and if, in fact, I will support this bill, 10 it will be with the comfort of knowing that it's 11 a one-house bill because I feel that this has to 12 go back to the drawing board. 13 We're dealing with something far 14 too precious and something that requires far too 15 much work and far too much detail, and it may be 16 a blessing in disguise for the sponsor of this 17 bill that it is a one-house bill because some of 18 the issues that have been raised here are issues 19 that are going to have to be addressed if, in 20 fact, you are to have two-house agreement and 21 get it to the Governor. 22 So I commend him for his 23 efforts. I wish that some of these comments and 11154 1 certainly the ones I've indulged in are taken at 2 the value for which they're given, basically to 3 try and make corrections in a bill that I 4 believe is flawed and requires work. 5 I'm concerned not only about that 6 offending parent, I'm concerned about that class 7 of children who are out there who are not 8 technically emancipated, who may be living in 9 this warp where they've left their home, the 10 cops won't bring them back. They're out there, 11 they're street people. Their connections with 12 parents are virtually non-existent and, under 13 this bill, there has to be an effort to try and 14 reach out to those parents and again to both 15 parents if, in fact, you know they're 16 available. 17 So, Mr. President, I did -- as I 18 mentioned in my opening remarks I had intended 19 to engage in some bit of a dialogue with Senator 20 Padavan for purposes of trying to elicit his 21 comments. Given the fact that we're well past 22 the two-hour rule and there are a number of 23 people who have similarly deferred, I will spare 11155 1 this house that dialogue and shall at this point 2 conclude my comments and thank you for the 3 opportunity. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Skelos, why do you rise? 6 SENATOR SKELOS: There is no 7 intention at this time to cut off debate, but I 8 do want to mention that we're well over the two 9 hour limit of debate. If possible and again, 10 there's no intention to cut off debate, if 11 people can explain their vote, if they feel 12 that's a sufficient amount of time, we would 13 urge them to do so, so that we can continue with 14 the day because there are many, many more bills 15 to be brought up today. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 DeFrancisco. 18 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I'll be 19 very brief, as brief as I would be to explain my 20 vote. 21 There are a couple specific 22 points I wanted to address, one of which was the 23 concern that some of the people in this chamber 11156 1 have concerning the doctor being subject to some 2 type of penalty if they do not do the 3 notification. 4 Well, that doesn't offend anybody 5 when a person who's abused, the child who's 6 abused goes to the hospital and the nurse or the 7 doctor has to notify the authorities about abuse 8 and, if the authorities aren't notified, there's 9 penalties that could be attached to the 10 physician, the nurse, the hospital or the like. 11 So this provision in this 12 particular bill that deals with potential 13 penalties and an obligation on behalf of the 14 doctor to make some notification or a nurse to 15 make some notification is not something that's 16 just being created on this particular occasion. 17 Secondly, there's been a lot of 18 discussion about coercion, that there's a 19 concern that the parents will coerce the child 20 into a decision that maybe the child might not 21 think is best. I think parents have an 22 obligation to care for a child and to provide 23 the standards and the values that that parent or 11157 1 parents has towards that child. In fact, we 2 have certain obligations that parents have 3 towards those children to raise those children 4 in a proper manner and to indicate that the mere 5 fact that a parent is going to try to counsel 6 the child and be involved in this important 7 issue, that that ultimately translates into 8 coercion, I think, is the exception rather than 9 the rule, which gets me to my main point. 10 The issue of parental 11 notification should be framed in the way that I 12 believe society wants to have people act; in 13 other words, everyone in this chamber said it 14 would be best if children talked to their 15 parents, notified them. It would be best for 16 everyone under those circumstances, but after 17 saying that, even the opponents say, but there's 18 dysfunctional families. There's pathological 19 families. There's this type of family. There's 20 abusive. 21 Of course, there is, but 22 shouldn't the general rule be that the policy of 23 this state is that parents and children should 11158 1 talk about all issues, including this important 2 issue, and that's the policy of this state? 3 That's what Senator Padavan's rule does. 4 There's exceptions and that's the dysfunctional 5 family, the coercive parent, the abusive parent 6 and for exceptions, you make exceptions to the 7 general rule, and that's what this bill does 8 providing for a vehicle for those exceptions; 9 and so I think it's a well balanced bill and it 10 upholds the responsibility of parents that they 11 have in other areas to the most probably and 12 most important decision that a young child could 13 make if they find themselves in this situation. 14 So I'm going to vote in favor of 15 this bill. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Padavan? Senator Padavan waives. 18 SENATOR PADAVAN: I'll explain my 19 vote. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Padavan will explain his vote. 22 Senator Farley. 23 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes, I was going 11159 1 to waive my right. I think I'm near the end of 2 that list, am I not? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Connor is next to conclude. 5 SENATOR FARLEY: All right. I'll 6 speak very briefly as if I was going to, but I 7 could speak on this for some time. 8 I think everyone knows how I feel 9 about abortion. I don't view this bill in the 10 same light at all. This is a family rights 11 issue without a doubt. We're not talking about 12 limiting a woman's right to abortion. These are 13 children -- children; 15 and younger. It's 14 unbelieveable that a child wouldn't need its 15 mother, particularly at this time. Certainly a 16 father is important also. 17 If there's no family structure, 18 the courts intercede. But let me just say 19 this. If there's an issue that the people of 20 this state feel deeply about, it's this one. 21 Put this one on the ballot, you'll see a land 22 slide. You will see a landslide, regardless of 23 how you feel about the right to choose or how 11160 1 you feel about pro-life. The people of this 2 state feel very deeply that there should be 3 notification, if not consent. They feel very 4 deeply about this. 5 I've taken a poll of my 6 constituency on abortion. It's very close, it 7 was 50/50. On this issue, it's a landslide. 8 They want notification. Senator Padavan has 9 already spoken to the fact that this 10 Legislature, significantly, passed in my first 11 year here consent, not notification, consent. I 12 think it's very, very significant. I applaud 13 our Majority Leader for bringing this issue 14 before us, and I'll tell you, if this bill hit 15 the floor of the Assembly, it would pass in a 16 New York minute. Maybe the two hours are 17 better, but it would pass easily. 18 We are at a significant time. 19 This is a statement from this house. It's how 20 we feel about families -- a family issue that is 21 very, very significant. I listened carefully to 22 what Senator Saland had to say, and I respect 23 his legal mind. There's no perfect bill, and 11161 1 I'm sure that Senator Padavan will consider some 2 of these things. I applaud you, Senator 3 Padavan, wherever he went, for bringing this 4 bill before us. 5 I'm going to vote in the 6 affirmative, and I certainly hope that my 7 colleagues would join me. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Skelos. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 11 at this time, if we could have the last section 12 read for purposes of two Senators voting. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 16 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator 21 Montgomery, how do you vote? 22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Vote no. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11162 1 Montgomery will be recorded in the negative. 2 KUHL: Senator Skelos, how do you 3 vote? 4 SENATOR SKELOS: In the 5 affirmative. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Skelos is in the affirmative. The roll call is 8 withdrawn. The debate will continue. 9 The Chair recognizes Senator 10 Connor to conclude. 11 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 12 President. 13 This is an issue that I think 14 many, many people care very much about and feel 15 very deeply about because it does strike at 16 fundamental relationships in the family and it 17 does, as Senator DeFrancisco pointed out, it 18 does go to what we would hold out as the ideal 19 and what most New Yorkers would hold out as the 20 ideal, and it's one that I care very, very much 21 about, and in some sense feel a little bit of 22 conflict. 23 I relate to this not just as a 11163 1 legislator but as a parent of children, as a 2 Catholic, as someone who's been in this 3 Legislature many, many years and as someone 4 who's had a chance to observe the real 5 conditions in our state. 6 I would suggest a better bill, a 7 better bill, would be a bill guaranteeing to 8 every child in New York State, boy or girl, two 9 loving, caring parents or guardians. That would 10 be a good bill. My colleagues, would that not 11 -- would that not represent better than this 12 bill the ideal that New Yorkers hold out? Why 13 don't we pass a bill guaranteeing every child in 14 New York State loving, caring, supportive 15 parents from the moment of birth until their 16 majority. That's what we ought to do. I'll 17 support that bill. 18 You say, Oh, how can we do that 19 legislatively? You can't legislate that. That's 20 just an ideal. Well, isn't that what this bill 21 is, an ideal, and you're trying to legislate an 22 ideal that doesn't exist? Of course, if you 23 polled New Yorkers, as Senator Farley pointed 11164 1 out, and you represent only those children who 2 make important decisions consulting with loving 3 supportive parents, of course New Yorkers are 4 for that; but regrettably for a large number of 5 children in New York you have to first find 6 loving, supportive parents and/or guardians. 7 You know, Senator Maltese 8 harkened back, I don't know, we didn't hang out 9 in malls when I was 13. They didn't have malls; 10 we hung out in the soda shop. He talked about 11 the books these teenagers read, where they go, 12 what they're doing. They're getting their 13 confirmations, their bar mitzvahs, they're going 14 to high school and they're reading wonderful 15 books and all. How idealistic! 16 Were that only true for every 13 17 and 14-year-old in New York State. Let me tell 18 you, my colleagues, about thousands, far too 19 many 13- and 14- and 15-year-olds in New York 20 State. They're hanging out on the streets until 21 all hours of the morning. They're smoking dope 22 or worse. They have no parents to go home to. 23 Sometimes they're stealing to get some small 11165 1 cash to buy food because they don't have a 2 parent or guardian who worries about the three 3 squares. Sometimes the only meal they get is in 4 school. Yet their legislators -- their 5 legislators -- there are legislators who think 6 we ought not provide lunch in schools for these 7 poor kids. We don't worry about their basic 8 sustenance, much less do they have caring 9 supportive parents. 10 I've learned one thing in 18 11 years in this Legislature. Every problem 12 doesn't have a legislative solution and if that 13 sounds conservative, label me so. Does this 14 bill identify a problem? Gee, it does seem to 15 be a problem. We do want to encourage children 16 to be involved, to involve their parents in 17 important decisions, that's a wonderful goal. 18 That's a wonderful ideal. Can we legislated 19 that? No more than we can legislate that every 20 parent or guardian is loving, supportive and 21 caring. 22 That may be regrettable as an 23 ideal, a moral thing that we can't do that, but 11166 1 we certainly have to realize we can't legislate 2 it. 3 Senator Marchi said, a 4 bureaucratic position, they couldn't possibly be 5 more supportive than a parent. They couldn't 6 possibly judge the best interest of the child 7 and the emotional needs better than a parent. I 8 wish that were so. He should have said they 9 ought not. They ought not be able to be more 10 supportive and caring and they ought to be - 11 have the best interests of the child and know 12 what that best interest is far better than a 13 bureaucrat or a judge, and I would add judge, 14 left judges out, judges in this bill, or a 15 physician. 16 Regrettably, read the papers. 17 Parents kill children. The social services 18 system doesn't work. Kids go in and out of 19 foster care because there are no loving and 20 supportive parents. They go into foster care 21 and they get returned to the natural parents. 22 They get murdered. Happens every week, every 23 week. That's the reality. That's the reality. 11167 1 Regrettably, and it's abhorrent, but that's the 2 reality for many of the children in our state 3 and I say to those who rather blithely would cut 4 down the basic subsistence paid to some of these 5 families -- and we've heard that earlier in the 6 session, cut 'em 15 percent -- that's not 7 reality. 8 We owe these children more. We 9 can't just pass a bill that says everything will 10 be nice, notify the parents and the children 11 will be loved, supported, encouraged and 12 guided. That's not the reality, and I suggest 13 -- I suggest that part of the evidence that 14 that's not the reality is the very high instance 15 of pregnancy among very young women, indeed 16 girls of 13, 14. That's part of the evidence of 17 the dysfunction in the families. 18 Now, I'm not suggesting that 19 every young woman who gets -- finds herself with 20 an unwanted pregnancy comes from a dysfunctional 21 family because from Adam and Eve's time on, 22 things happen. Things happen between young 23 people, and there are pregnancies that aren't 11168 1 desired. 2 I'm not suggesting that, but I'm 3 suggesting in a very large percentage of young 4 women who find themselves pregnant, that just 5 may be part of the evidence that they don't have 6 parents that are as involved or supportive in 7 their lives as we ought to have in -- for every 8 child. But we can't legislate that. If anybody 9 can convince me we could legislate that kind of 10 parent, then I'd say go all the way, Senator 11 Padavan. Let's put in a bill and guarantee 12 every child born in New York loving, caring 13 parents for the rest of their lives. 14 That's what we ought to be 15 concerned about. We can't do it by legislation, 16 but we ought to be concerned about all the other 17 legislation we have going or propose separate 18 and apart from this, whether it's in the budget 19 or anywhere else that doesn't foster that 20 ideal. We ought to be concerned to push that 21 ideal. 22 You know, you say, Well, but 23 we've covered all these children who are from 11169 1 dysfunctional families and whose parent or step 2 parent or guardian is perhaps even responsible 3 for the pregnancy in a very direct way because 4 of abuse. Look at the statistics on abused 5 children. You know, and you know one of my 6 colleagues said, Hey, well, don't worry about 7 the penalties. We already penalize health care 8 providers if you don't report to the police 9 children that are brought in and abused. 10 Well, you know, there's two edges 11 on that sword. Yeah, we don't have them report 12 to the parent. Why not? Often the number one 13 suspect for that abuse. We don't say, if you 14 see an abused child and you're a doctor in an 15 emergency room, we don't say you must notify the 16 parents. No, we say you must notify the 17 police. Inherent in that is a suspicion that, 18 gee, not every child, regrettably not every 19 child in New York State has a loving, supportive 20 parent. Some have abusive, drugged out non 21 functional parents or guardians. 22 The reality, if we had a state 23 where every 13- or 14-year-old was enjoying that 11170 1 long list of recreational and educational 2 activities that Senator Maltese pointed out, I'd 3 say wonderful, wonderful, and we should give 4 them all -- we should legislate free ice cream 5 every afternoon. 6 That's not the reality. We have 7 13- and 14-year olds who aren't reading anything 8 because they can't read, because they've been in 9 and out of school. They can't read. They're 10 not hanging out at malls. They're hanging out 11 in slums. They're trading drugs or the victims 12 of those who do that. They don't have a home to 13 go to, much less a prom or a party or sporting 14 events. These are the children that this bill 15 would rather pretend don't exist. 16 I don't know, you say, Well, why 17 don't we -- you can go to a Family Court judge, 18 you can go to a judge. Well, I've learned one 19 thing in all my years as a lawyer, and I have 20 the highest respect for our judicial system, but 21 I think it's terrible. It's the best one that 22 anyone has ever set up anywhere, but it's 23 terrible. It can't solve -- it cannot solve 11171 1 social problems. It cannot solve -- judges 2 can't solve family problems. We make that 3 mistake all the time. 4 Why doesn't he do anything about 5 it? You know, look at all the spousal abuses and 6 murder situations. So -- but the court issued 7 six protective orders. That six protective 8 orders can't stop a maniac from killing his ex 9 spouse. It happens all the time, regrettably it 10 happens all the time. Courts may be the place 11 of last resort, but they're not a very good 12 place to send people with their personal 13 problems. In fact, they're a very poor place. 14 If Senator Marchi did not doubt 15 that physicians and bureaucrats can possibly 16 substitute or appreciate as well as parents 17 what's in the best interests of a child, why 18 would you believe for a minute that a judge 19 could do that? After you file all the right 20 papers and get to the right courtroom, our 21 courts are chock full of delay, disillusion 22 ment and quandaries and our judges do a very 23 good job within the law of trying to resolve 11172 1 those quandaries. But I haven't met a judge 2 yet who thinks, yep, in my courtroom we have the 3 perfect solution to every problem. King Solomon 4 is not sitting in the Family Court in New York 5 State. We don't have any perfect justice. We 6 have perhaps the best -- best system that we can 7 fashion as mere mortals, but the courts don't 8 have all the answers and they're a very, very 9 poor place for this kind of personal decision 10 that a young girl might have to make or have to 11 resort to in the absence -- in the absence of 12 caring parents and guardians. 13 So notification. I have to 14 believe that those children in New York State 15 who are fortunate enough to have what is their 16 right, loving, supportive parent or parents 17 and/or guardian, would if faced with this kind 18 of crisis, discuss it with such a parent. I 19 would believe that my children certainly would 20 discuss something of that magnitude with me. 21 But the fact of the matter is it's those others 22 who have nowhere to turn, who have nowhere to 23 turn, that this bill ignores. You know, the 11173 1 bill does represent an ideal that I subscribe 2 to, but it's best expressed in that guarantee 3 that no Legislature can make regrettably, that 4 every child should have that kind of supportive 5 loving relationship. 6 And I might suggest, you say, 7 well, but there are times when the child is even 8 intimidated from confiding in loving, supportive 9 parents. My colleague described what a crisis 10 that is for a 13- or 14-year-old girl, and I 11 agree, but I have a very, very strong idea that 12 where there is a loving, supportive, close 13 family, the parents certainly will perceive the 14 kind of anguish, confusion and pressure their 15 child is under, and might even initiate a 16 discussion because of that. 17 So even if, in those kind of 18 families, Gee, the daughter won't come forward 19 without a notice being delivered, the fact is 20 that's part of caring, supportive parents. 21 Spend time with their children, notice changes 22 in their behavior, be able to tell when their 23 14-year-old is under extraordinary pressure or 11174 1 feels very, very conflicted and then offer an 2 ear, but as to the other children, a notice in 3 the mail to the parent can only cause more 4 grief, more problems in the family relationship, 5 indeed possibly a danger of violence or abuse 6 and I really, really think that, for some of 7 those young girls who are very young and 8 immature, it could result in resort to back 9 alley abortions, to death, to incredible damage, 10 to the kind of thing New York has said no to 11 taking a chance with for these many, many 12 years. 13 Mr. President, I urge a no 14 vote. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Padavan. 17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President, 18 I'm going to rise to explain my vote. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 Secretary will read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 22 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11175 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 SENATOR CONNOR: Slow roll call. 4 (The Secretary called the roll). 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Slow roll 6 call has been requested. I see five Senators 7 requesting that. 8 The Secretary will call the roll 9 slowly. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 11 SENATOR ABATE: No. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush. 13 SENATOR BABBUSH: No. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor. 17 SENATOR CONNOR: No. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook. 19 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Cook to explain his vote. 22 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, 23 aside from the issues that have been discussed, 11176 1 I think this bill raises an interesting 2 intellectual point. If we assume that a child 3 of 13, 14 or 15 does not have the intellectual 4 capacity to make a decision relative to having 5 an abortion, then I think we ought to wonder 6 what happens under the Social Services Law as 7 we've now amended it which says that any girl, 8 any minor girl, has to live in the home of a 9 parent, and what happens if that girl comes home 10 and says, "Gee, I'm pregnant," and the parent 11 says, "I'm not going to have that kid living in 12 my house. I haven't got the income, the ability 13 to take care of a baby in this house. Besides 14 that, you're too young, too immature to have a 15 baby," and the girl says, "But I want to have 16 the baby." Should the parent have the ability 17 to say, "You will have an abortion because 18 you're too immature to know whether you ought to 19 have an abortion or not?" Should the parent 20 have that kind of power, or does it only go one 21 way when you can say, "No, you shall not have an 22 abortion." 23 I think it's got to be one way or 11177 1 another. Either the child is mature enough to 2 make the decision both ways or the child is not 3 mature enough to have -- to make the decision 4 both ways and obviously I don't think any of us 5 around here would be advocating a law whereby a 6 parent could force a child to have an abortion, 7 but if we don't make the decision in that 8 direction, I don't see how we can make it in the 9 opposite direction, let them deny that ability 10 to have the abortion. 11 Therefore, I vote in the 12 negative. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Cook will be recorded in the negative. 15 Secretary continue to call the 16 roll. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator 18 DeFrancisco. 19 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo. 21 SENATOR DiCARLO: Aye. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator 23 Dollinger. 11178 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explain my 2 vote, Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Dollinger, to explain his vote. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I had a 6 chance to ask Senator Padavan a series of 7 questions, and I yielded the floor before I had 8 a chance to express my views on this bill. I 9 think it creates standards for physicians in 10 interrogating their patient, but it doesn't tell 11 you what they should do or how they should do 12 it. 13 It talks about promoting the 14 family and parenting, yet for some reason it 15 says you give notice to the parents of the 16 would-be mother, but there's no requirement that 17 you gave notice to the father, or the putative 18 father, an inconsistency that I, frankly, find 19 troubling if the goal is to encourage 20 parenting. 21 It will pit a child against her 22 parents in what I think is a one-way street 23 because this bill says, if you're coerced into 11179 1 an abortion, that's wrong, but if you're coerced 2 by your parents not to have an abortion, that's 3 O.K. We're going to let our parents coerce our 4 children to do what the sponsor of this bill and 5 those who support it think they want to do which 6 is, let's be blunt about it, stop abortions. 7 It creates civil liability on the 8 part of our medical practitioners and 9 potentially our health centers and our 10 hospitals, but it doesn't talk about any 11 standards. 12 It talks about creating a 13 procedure for a courtroom bypass, but don't kid 14 yourself, this isn't a bypass provision. This 15 isn't a provision that says we will do without 16 notice under these circumstances. This is a 17 provision that transfers to the judge a 18 determination about what the best interest of 19 this child is. 20 I think it's a bad bill. I think 21 it's also bad politics. I heard a couple 22 speakers refer to the fact that this is 23 overwhelmingly supported by the people in this 11180 1 state. We know for a fact that the reason that 2 something is supported by an overwhelming number 3 of people in this state is not a reason for this 4 house to do anything, because assault weapons or 5 the ban on assault weapons is supported by 6 almost the same amount of people percentages 7 that this is supposedly supported by in the 8 polls, and we've elected, or certain people in 9 this chamber have elected not to do anything 10 about assault weapons. 11 So when I'm lectured about the 12 fact that 82 percent of the people support this, 13 I'd simply go back to an argument we had several 14 weeks ago. It's obviously not a reason to do 15 anything in this house. 16 I made a promise a long time ago 17 about this issue, and I said that this state 18 should not make our children into liars in order 19 to get health care. It should not make our 20 doctors, physicians and hospitals into liars and 21 into interrogators of their patients in order to 22 give young women health care. We should not go 23 back to the 1950s when young women whispered 11181 1 amongst themselves, "I got a problem. Do you 2 know where I can go?" "Yes, we've got a little 3 address down a back alley up a couple floors." 4 You'll meet someone who doesn't have M.D. at the 5 end of their name, and you can there get your 6 problem taken care of. 7 I'm not going to tell the 8 desperate young women in this state, and I will 9 admit something before I do say this, this bill 10 may help someone. There may be some families 11 where, if you give notice, the parent will 12 lovingly support the child to come to the right 13 decision, but there are thousands, and I agree 14 with Senator Connor, there are thousands of 15 young desperate women who will say, "I can't 16 talk to my parents about this," and my position 17 is simple. I promise not to do it. Even if 18 it's my 13-year-old daughter, I will not take 19 away her only hope. 20 I vote no. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Dollinger will be recorded in the negative. 23 The Secretary will continue to 11182 1 call the roll. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 3 (There was no response. ) 4 Senator Farley. 5 SENATOR FARLEY: I vote aye. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Galiber 7 excused. 8 Senator Gold. 9 (There was no response. ) 10 Senator Gonzalez excused. 11 Senator Goodman. 12 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President, 13 to explain my vote. 14 If only the world were as it's so 15 beautifully depicted by Senator Maltese a moment 16 ago; if only it were possible that you could say 17 that the children we're talking about read 18 Charlie's Chocolate Factory and To Kill a 19 Mocking Bird, everything would be fine. There'd 20 be no problem. 21 The world is not that way. The 22 world also unfortunately consists of people, of 23 youngsters with very severe problems and they're 11183 1 not talking about Charlie and the Chocolate 2 Factory, we're talking about a Charlotte and the 3 Baby Factory. 4 And that's the difficulty. 5 That's the distinction. That's what this law 6 fails to understand. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Goodman, how do you vote? 9 SENATOR GOODMAN: In the 10 negative. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Goodman in the negative. 13 Secretary will continue to call 14 the roll. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon. 16 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock. 18 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Hoblock, to explain his vote. 21 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Thank you, Mr. 22 President. 23 I've listened intently for close 11184 1 to three hours of the debate on this particular 2 piece of legislation and found it not only 3 interesting but very educational. This is an 4 issue that I know that many of us in this 5 chamber have struggled with over the years 6 because you deal with your personal conviction, 7 you deal with the interests of your constituency 8 and then you try to deal with the actual piece 9 of legislation to see whether or not it fits 10 into that mold or it adapts to your personal 11 conviction and that of what you feel is the need 12 and desire of your constituency. 13 And I have to tell you that 14 because this is such a personal and emotional 15 issue, putting at least those three pieces 16 together is very difficult and maybe there's 17 more pieces to this that others are trying to 18 put together. I've been in elective office many 19 years like many of you and, on this particular 20 issue, I have a personal conviction that I'm 21 troubled by the fact that we as a state, we as a 22 government, are not doing something for the 12 23 or 13-year-old females that are trying to make 11185 1 this decision on their own, and that certainly 2 leans me toward getting the family involved, 3 whether it be by notification or some other 4 method, and I think that we'd all like to live 5 in that ideal world, and I think we need to have 6 the faith and confidence to do that and we need 7 to move in that direction. 8 Putting it into practice and 9 developing a piece of legislation to accomplish 10 that is an entirely different issue. I think 11 that the findings and the intent of this 12 legislation, the first couple of paragraphs sets 13 forth what it is we'd all like to do. Then the 14 problems develop. 15 I have some deep concern with 16 this piece of legislation. Many of the 17 problems, and I won't reiterate because they 18 have already been mentioned, but I think it is a 19 step in the right direction. Knowing that this 20 bill is going to stay in this house and it will 21 be worked on and there will be modifications and 22 we will revisit this issue, I feel comfortable 23 in moving in the direction that I've set out for 11186 1 myself, and I vote in the affirmative. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Hoblock will be recorded in the affirmative. 4 Secretary will continue to call 5 the roll. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 Hoffmann. 8 (There was no response. ) 9 Senator Holland. 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson. 12 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Jones. 14 SENATOR JONES: Explain my vote. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Jones, to explain her vote. 17 SENATOR JONES: I was reading an 18 article today in the Gazette, and one of the 19 comments was that most of the bills we pass here 20 are generally not read and very little 21 discussion and resulting in what happened last 22 week with the Long Island toll bill. Well, this 23 bill certainly does not fall into this 11187 1 category. 2 I feel very comfortable that 3 everyone here has read it very extensively and 4 has probably spent many, many an hour thinking 5 about it. I guess I believe in my heart that 6 this should be an easy yes vote if you just look 7 at the surface of it, and to oppose it is far 8 from easy. All parents say they want to be 9 involved in their children's lives and, of 10 course, all of us believe that they should be. 11 But then I say don't they have 12 that right now at their disposal the means to do 13 this? I asked myself, doesn't day-to-day good 14 communication with your children allow you that 15 now? Doesn't it every day you impart to your 16 kids values by good example, by training, by 17 taking them to church, doing all the right 18 things, doesn't that help? 19 And I say to myself, doesn't 20 education about sex, relationships, the 21 importance of saying no, doesn't all those 22 things have any impact on children? Well, my 23 answer is yes, it does and should, which then 11188 1 says to me that the only people that are going 2 to be impacted by this piece of legislation is 3 those who do not have those families, do not 4 have a quality education and do not have the 5 ability to hear this. In fact, if the child who 6 not only doesn't have two parents, doesn't even 7 have one quality parent, and this same child can 8 be a victim actually of the parent. Right now, 9 as someone said earlier, 74 percent of the teens 10 who have sex before 14, it's because of incest. 11 Now, I know many of you have said 12 there's a court option, and I understand that, 13 that's true, but now we're saying let's have a 14 judge who knows nothing of this child or the 15 need to become not only the parent, the judge, 16 but even the medical adviser to this child. I 17 truly have agonized over this issue and there's 18 no one knows better than I the political 19 ramifications of it, but I know in my heart it 20 is not as simple as picking up a telephone and 21 making a phone call to two parents. 22 I have four children and thank 23 God all of them grew up and maybe I was lucky. 11189 1 I think that's a lot of it with children, but 2 fortunately they all turned out well, and I have 3 three beautiful grandchildren that I look on 4 today, and while I'm agonizing about this, my 5 daughter is always kind of my lightning rod or 6 whatever, and I said, "Honey, what do you think 7 about this? You have three daughters," and her 8 answer to me was, "Mom, I'm going to do 9 everything in my power to raise these children 10 that they will not be afraid to come to me no 11 matter what their problem, but, if I fail, then 12 I want to know there's a safe place that they 13 can go." 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Jones, how do you vote? 16 SENATOR JONES: (Talking over). 17 Those of you who support this bill, let me just 18 finish by saying preach the right thing from 19 your pulpit, your children need to hear it. 20 Talk to them in your home and show them by 21 example the right thing and offer them your love 22 and your comfort and your security blanket, they 23 need it. Teach them in the classroom the values 11190 1 and dangers of sex before marriage, the joys of 2 family life, but please don't believe that the 3 state of New York bears the ultimate 4 responsibility for family values; it won't 5 work. 6 I have to vote no. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Jones' vote will be recorded in the negative. 9 The Chair would remind the members that you have 10 two minutes to explain your vote. I'm sure you 11 all will remember that. 12 Secretary will continue to call 13 the roll. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger. 15 (There was no response. ) 16 Senator Kuhl. 17 SENATOR KUHL: Aye. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack 19 excused. 20 Senator Larkin. 21 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle 23 voting in the affirmative earlier today. 11191 1 Senator Leibell. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Leibell to explain his vote. 4 SENATOR LEIBELL: Thank you, Mr. 5 President. 6 I'm one of those members that 7 felt that, when I first saw the bill and had an 8 opportunity to read through it, that this 9 required a great deal more work before we had 10 the chance to consider it on the floor. Despite 11 its distinguished sponsorship, I can't describe 12 this legislation as particularly well crafted. 13 It has been noted by the sponsors 14 as well as many others here that this is not a 15 choice vote. It's been changed to make sure 16 that it does not provide for consent. There's 17 been a change in the age levels that are 18 involved. 19 Obviously we are nonetheless, 20 though, grappling with one of the most contro 21 versial areas that we have to deal with and, for 22 that I -- I think it is a good thing that we 23 have this opportunity this afternoon to at least 11192 1 commence this dialogue. I would like to see 2 this dialogue expanded to include legislation 3 which Senator Cook and I have sponsored, the 4 health clinic access bill, so that we could have 5 an opportunity to view this great social issue 6 in all its aspects. 7 Nonetheless, I am glad that we at 8 this point in time have had a chance to discuss 9 what is by -- I think everyone has acknowledged 10 at this point in time a one-house bill, but one 11 that we will have obviously a great deal of 12 discussion on in the future. Its limitations 13 have been noted. The general concept is one, 14 however. That I can support, the idea that a 15 family has an important role to play in these 16 decisions. 17 With that in mind, I will vote 18 aye. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Leibell will be recorded in the negative -- the 21 affirmative. 22 Secretary will continue to call 23 the roll. 11193 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2 Leichter. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Leichter to explain his vote. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: To explain my 7 vote. You just can't legislate love and trust 8 between a child and parents, and that's really 9 what you're trying to do here. Of course, 10 children find themselves in a situation where 11 they're pregnant and have to make a very 12 difficult decision ought to make that decision 13 in -- within their family and with the 14 consultation of their parents, but we know that 15 there's some children who will not do that, or 16 where the family relationship does not allow 17 this. 18 Where you have a dysfunctional 19 family or you have other difficulties and in 20 those circumstances to legislate and say, well, 21 you must do that, or you must go to court, is 22 just totally unreasonable. 23 I know I've heard on this floor 11194 1 that, well, we're not deciding or voting on 2 choice, but I must tell you that when I consider 3 this bill and when I consider the bill earlier 4 this year that Senator Farley had on denying 5 Medicaid support for abortions, these are 6 guerilla attacks on the basic constitutional 7 right to have an abortion, and you can put it 8 all in the guise of, well, we're talking about 9 family values and family being together and 10 loving relationships between mothers and fathers 11 and their daughter, but that's hogwash. 12 Your aim and purpose and intent, 13 I submit by this bill, is to try to limit 14 abortions in this state and to force people to 15 carry fetus to terms when they may not want to 16 make that choice. I think it's an unrealistic 17 bill, and I think it's an unjust bill. 18 I vote in the negative. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Leichter will be recorded in the negative. 21 Secretary will continue to call 22 the roll. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy. 11195 1 SENATOR LEVY: Yes. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous 3 excused. 4 Senator Maltese. 5 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Maltese to explain his vote. 8 SENATOR MALTESE: I had not 9 expected to explain my vote, but I simply wanted 10 to respond to some of my colleagues who chose to 11 mention myself and other supporters by name and 12 indicated that they felt there was a certain 13 naivete in espousing a list or speaking of a 14 society in which traditional family values are 15 adhered to or espoused. 16 I certainly having been brought 17 up on the Lower East Side and being chairman of 18 the board of a high school for some 19 years, 19 I don't think I could be accused of being 20 completely unaware of our young pre-teens and 21 teenagers. 22 I simply want to indicate that 23 together with other supporters of the bill, that 11196 1 we are here because we feel that we are not 2 satisfied with the status quo, not satisfied 3 with the world as it is now, and we hope that by 4 our efforts we can achieve a better place for 5 our children to bring up our children, to bring 6 up our families and, hopefully, by supporting 7 legislation like this and similar legislation, 8 we can come close to that goal. 9 Mr. President, I vote aye. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Maltese in the affirmative. 12 Continue to call the roll. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator 14 Marcellino. 15 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 17 SENATOR MARCHI: Mr. President, I 18 merely want to express my sadness in a way that 19 some of the opponents of this bill express such 20 dire judgments on the millions of families in 21 this state. These are good families. These are 22 good people and these are good people that want 23 the best for their children. I'm sure that 11197 1 they're intelligent and sensitive people that 2 I'm speaking about, but on sober reflection they 3 will -- and distance from the debate, they will 4 come to a different conclusion about these 5 families. 6 I vote aye. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Marchi in the affirmative. 9 Continue to call the roll. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator 11 Markowitz. 12 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Explain my 13 vote. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Markowitz to explain his vote. 16 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Thank you. 17 Of course, I've heard these debates prior to 18 this afternoon -- this is nothing new in this 19 chamber -- in an attempt to lessen the right of 20 women to choose, whether that woman is 16 years 21 old or whether the woman is 20 or 30 or any 22 age. 23 I would like if it was possible 11198 1 to turn back our society to Father Knows Best. 2 That would be nice, or Leave It to Beaver, but 3 1995, regrettably, in some ways is not the 1950s 4 or late '40s or mid-'30s or '40s that some of 5 you in the chamber grew up in. 6 Certainly for the latter part of 7 the '40s, '50s and '60s, that hype came of age. 8 As much as we care about these families, Senator 9 Marchi, and we do care, Senator Marchi, we do. 10 By and large, government has a certain role and 11 when people make their decisions they make their 12 decisions regardless of necessarily what 13 government has issued, believe me. 14 In this case, I suspect that 15 young women that are in loving families, that 16 the chances are significantly less, where 17 there's been that type of stronger family 18 background that an abortion would even be 19 contemplated or that the need for one or even 20 the decision for one would be really academic. 21 Where there is a strong bond between the young 22 woman and her mom or dad, and should the issue 23 of abortion come up, I believe that she would 11199 1 naturally seek out that person in her life that 2 she's closest to whom she loves and who she 3 trusts, whether it be her mom or dad or both. 4 However, we don't live in The 5 Father Knows best society any more, Senator 6 Marchi. We haven't for years. So the question 7 is, what is right for government to do? What is 8 right for us as legislators? And it seems to me 9 that voting for this bill will only force those 10 young people that make the decision to terminate 11 their pregnancy, we might force them to face 12 consequences that no good person in this chamber 13 would want that young person to experience; and 14 so, therefore, we have to vote on the greatest 15 good for the greatest number to protect those 16 that need protection. 17 In this case, Senator Marchi, 18 voting for this bill, I don't believe, protects 19 the very people that you care about and I care 20 about. There's no question of that in our 21 society once we begin focusing in on the 22 extraordinary sex that we see on television and 23 in the movies over and over and over and over 11200 1 and over again, and every advertiser and every 2 quote, major corporation, the most conservative 3 to the most liberal, they use whatever they have 4 to to sell their product. 5 So on one side we say yes and on 6 the other side we say no. Is it any wonder why 7 society is as conflicted as it is today? 8 I vote no. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Markowitz in the negative. 11 Continue to call the roll. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz. 13 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Mendez to explain her vote. 17 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President, 18 to explain my vote. 19 In -- in following the debate 20 here today, Mr. President, I have been going 21 from the position of affirmative position for 22 the bill and a negative position for the bill 23 back and forth all day long, because I do 11201 1 believe very strongly that parents of young 2 children should be notified. In fact, in New 3 York City today -- and this was one of the 4 reasons why I have been inclined to support this 5 bill is, in the public school system in New 6 York, one out of four children is sexually 7 abused. Since -- and the usual thing for the 8 school person, the usual thing that the school 9 personnel do is that they transfer the guilty 10 person to another district without telling the 11 accepting or receiving district what that person 12 has done. So that with school-based clinics in 13 our schools, in the City, which I support, there 14 is a risk, an enormous risk, of having a child 15 that is abused sexually by school personnel and 16 then that child being taken from that -- that 17 school-based clinic and taken to an abortion 18 clinic and the parents without knowing 19 anything. 20 So in terms of protecting those 21 children, I was thinking yes, I would support 22 the bill. 23 In reading further the bill, 11202 1 however, Mr. President, I saw that this bill - 2 this bill forces children, I mean this bill, the 3 state helps children who decide to keep the 4 child by making them emancipated young people. 5 In doing so, they are giving all the services 6 that that child might do again when that is 7 already forbidden by law in terms of the social 8 welfare reform that we did here, while the girl 9 who goes through with abortion, because when the 10 parents do not want her to do so, she has her - 11 her abortion, goes home and she still will be 12 facing the same music. 13 So I think I -- for the record, I 14 support parental notification. I, for the 15 record, do not support parental consent. I want 16 to thank Senator Padavan for bringing this issue 17 to the fore. We know that this bill is not 18 going to see the light -- is not going to go 19 through in the Assembly. It will not be 20 discussed in the Assembly, but I think that we 21 have to go back to the drawing board and make a 22 more equitable -- equitable bill to protect our 23 children. 11203 1 So, therefore, I will be voting 2 in the negative. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Mendez in the negative. 5 Secretary will continue to call 6 the roll. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Montgomery voting in the negative earlier 9 today. 10 Senator Nanula. 11 SENATOR NANULA: No. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator 13 Nozzolio. 14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato. 16 SENATOR ONORATO: Aye. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator 18 Oppenheimer. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Oppenheimer to explain her vote. 21 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Briefly, I 22 think most of the people in this room probably 23 would be sought out by their kids. For the most 11204 1 part, what I've heard when I've spoken to the 2 other Senators is that there's concern and 3 involvement, parental involvement, with their 4 kids that's been going on for many years, and I 5 think that we understand that we can't legislate 6 trust and we can't legislate confidence and we 7 can't legislate communication between child and 8 adult. 9 In the cases that we're talking 10 about, 80 percent of these young people, these 11 children 13, 14 and 15, did seek their parents' 12 involvement, and so we're talking about a small 13 minority of them that don't and where they don't 14 in those states where they already have judicial 15 bypass with parental notification, and where 16 thousands and thousands of cases have already 17 been heard, the assessment hasn't been good, and 18 this is not just anecdotal that I'm talking 19 about. 20 I read earlier what many of the 21 judges in these states have said about the cases 22 that they heard concerning judicial bypass, and 23 they were specifically named judges and direct 11205 1 quotes and each one of these justices said that 2 in -- this process was just an enormous hassle 3 for kids and accomplished very little else. 4 What we all would agree who have 5 difficulty with this bill is, there are needs. 6 There are certainly needs, and education is the 7 first need. Family life education in all of our 8 schools is an important need. More school-based 9 clinics is an important need. There are a lot 10 of needs out there. This bill does not address 11 any of those needs. 12 I, for one, support reproductive 13 freedom. I believe choice should be available 14 to all females whether they're rich or poor or 15 young or old or white or black or Latino. I 16 think it is guaranteed by our Constitution and 17 by our Supreme Court, and I'll be voting in the 18 negative. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Oppenheimer in the negative. 21 Continue to call the roll. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11206 1 Padavan to explain his vote. 2 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President, 3 there's been a considerable amount of debate and 4 I respect the views expressed on both sides of 5 this issue during the several hours we've talked 6 about it. 7 I would just like to set the 8 record straight on a couple of issues which I 9 think are important. 10 First, I want to assure Senator 11 Goodman and some of the others that I, and I 12 know everyone who supports this legislation, 13 does not live in Disney World. We live in the 14 real world. We understand fully the issues of 15 dysfunctional families. We understand fully 16 where this type issue falls hardest in many, 17 many instances, but we also understand fully, 18 contrary to comments made by Senator Cook, that 19 we are not out to punish children. We are out, 20 and our primary focus, to repeat what I said 21 earlier, is to ensure the health, physical 22 health, mental health and well-being of young 23 girls who find themselves in this position. 11207 1 Senator Connor indicated that the 2 Family Court is not the place to replace 3 parents, not the location that parents should 4 have surrogates, and he's right. The Family 5 Court, in this legislation, is for one and only 6 one purpose, to make the determination as to 7 whether or not notification should be 8 implemented. It does not become involved in 9 determining whether an abortion should be 10 permitted or not. That is outside any court's 11 jurisdiction. It is not a surrogate for parents 12 in terms of advising children what to do and not 13 do. 14 It is simply there to make a 15 determination based on valid considerations such 16 as the one brought up by Senator Saland, where 17 you have an offending parent and you don't want 18 that parent to get notification for obvious 19 reasons. That's what the Family Court's role is 20 in this legislation. 21 In sum, we have tried to craft 22 something here that reflects not only the wisdom 23 of the federal courts, Supreme Court, but also 11208 1 tracks what is going on in states throughout 2 this country. We think, on balance, it provides 3 a level of protection for children that they do 4 not have today, that youngsters who are willing 5 to take an easy way out may be the wrong way 6 out, and we think parents ought to be involved 7 to prevent that from happening. 8 I vote aye. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Padavan in the affirmative. 11 Continue to call the roll. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator 13 Paterson. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: No. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present. 16 SENATOR PRESENT: No. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 18 SENATOR RATH: Aye. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 20 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President, 21 to explain my vote. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Saland, to explain his vote. 11209 1 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 2 President. 3 Mr. President, I certainly would 4 think it an injustice to anybody in this chamber 5 to somehow or other impugn whatever their 6 motives may be for their respective positions. 7 In my comments earlier, I intended to, with the 8 utmost sincerity, praise Senator Padavan for his 9 efforts, for his integrity and for his 10 commitment to an extraordinarily important 11 issue. 12 Now, while I expressed 13 rhetorically by way of questions some 14 reservations that I think have to be addressed 15 in order to make this bill into a two-house 16 proposal that will carry the day, I would not 17 want to, in any way, shape or form, have that 18 construed as somehow or other my lack of concern 19 for the importance of the issue of parental 20 notification. 21 I very strongly believe in that 22 type of legislation, and would hope that, as 23 this issue continues and as the session draws to 11210 1 a close and we go back and review what we've 2 done, that we will have the opportunity to work 3 and to improve this measure. 4 I'll share with you an experience 5 just within this past week back home. During my 6 week off, I was on one of my extended walks with 7 my wife, and asked her about her feelings about 8 the parental notification issue, a person who 9 doesn't necessarily agree with me on each and 10 every one of my votes, and who certainly could 11 be called pro-choice, and I expected her 12 response to be, and we had never discussed it 13 before, that she didn't like it. 14 Her response was, "If you take 15 that away from the family, what's left?" And I 16 think that's a very, very valid concern. I 17 think it's a concern that we have to continue to 18 endeavor to address. I'd like to be able to 19 work with Senator Padavan and others in that 20 effort, and I'm going to vote for this measure. 21 Thank you. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Saland in the affirmative. Thank you. 11211 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2 Santiago. 3 SENATOR SANTIAGO: No. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears. 5 Senator Sears. 6 SENATOR SEARS: Aye. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward. 8 SENATOR SEWARD: Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Seward to explain his vote. 11 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes, Mr. 12 President. Like so many other members of this 13 chamber, I too have agonized over this 14 legislation in terms of what to do in terms of 15 casting a vote. 16 On one hand, as a parent of a 17 daughter myself, God forbid that she ever had to 18 face a decision whether or not to have an 19 abortion, I certainly would want to know and be 20 a part of that decision, and my wife and I are 21 working very hard to make sure that we have that 22 type of relationship so that would occur. 23 On the other hand, I fully agree 11212 1 with those who would say you can not legislate 2 parental/child communication. I fully recognize 3 that as much as we do not like to think about 4 it, we have so many dysfunctional families in 5 the state of New York where parents would not 6 make the best decisions on behalf of their 7 children. 8 But the legislation before us 9 today by Senator Padavan and others, is an 10 improved bill when compared to previous bills of 11 this type. This legislation today deals with 12 those under the age of 16 years of age. It 13 deals with notification rather than consent and 14 while still not a perfect bill -- particularly 15 bothersome to me is the Family Court proceedings 16 which I consider to be cumbersome, time 17 consuming, unduly intimidating in many ways. 18 I'm going to support the 19 legislation today, because I feel that it should 20 be the state policy in the state of New York 21 that parents be notified, that parents be 22 involved in this crucial decision on the part of 23 their child under the age of 16 years of age, 11213 1 and while not perfect, it is my hope that by the 2 passage of this bill today, it will enhance and 3 expedite serious discussions on developing a 4 sensitive, workable law that will truly protect 5 the young people of our state and their families 6 alike. 7 I vote aye. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Seward in the affirmative. 10 Continue to call the roll. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos 12 recorded in the affirmative earlier today. 13 Senator Smith. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Smith to explain her vote. 16 SENATOR SMITH: Mr. President, I 17 come from a different perspective, someone who 18 has worked closely with young women who are the 19 product of dysfunctional families. I have 20 worked closely in counseling and in trying to - 21 attempting to make them understand the realities 22 of life and attempting to get them back into the 23 mainstream. 11214 1 They have also spoken to me of 2 how they feel about the family courts and the 3 court system and how they could not possibly go 4 into a court to attempt to have an abortion or 5 whatever else may be necessary for their own 6 sanity in many cases. 7 And many of you do not realize 8 that in dysfunctional families it may be the 9 male in that household or the male that was once 10 in the household who may be the father of that 11 child, and that bothers me even more, and for 12 those dysfunctional families and those young 13 ladies who come from dysfunctional families, I 14 must vote in the negative. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Smith in the negative. 17 Continue to call the roll. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Solomon. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Solomon to explain his vote. 21 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you, Mr. 22 President. 23 Though I don't profess to have 11215 1 the wisdom of Solomon that was alluded to by 2 Senator Connor, I've listened to this debate 3 with interest. 4 Senator Saland pointed out the 5 many flaws in this legislation. Indeed, if this 6 legislation passed in both houses and were 7 signed by the Governor, it would probably be in 8 litigation for many years in terms of some of 9 the definitions we have, and some of the other 10 problems that we have to deal with. 11 The people talk about Family 12 Court. How many people have looked at the lines 13 outside of Family Court in Kings County before 14 court's supposed to open? Well, there may be a 15 hundred people on line and you expect a young 16 woman or fragile person 14 years old to be on 17 that line. 18 I think Senator Cook said it 19 best. We're either going to tell the parents to 20 make the decision one way or the other. The 21 14-year-old is either mature enough or not to 22 make that decision, and it has to go both ways. 23 I think this piece of legislation 11216 1 has so many problems with it from both a statu 2 tory point of view and a philosophical point of 3 view that it leaves a lot of us with no 4 alternative but to vote in the negative. 5 Thank you. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Solomon in the negative. 8 Continue to call the roll. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 10 (Negative indication. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator 12 Stachowski. 13 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: No. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator 15 Stafford. 16 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator 18 Stavisky. 19 SENATOR STAVISKY: No. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo. 21 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully. 23 SENATOR TULLY: Aye. 11217 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella. 2 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker. 4 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon. 6 (There was to response. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright. 8 SENATOR WRIGHT: No. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will call the absentees. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 12 (There was no response. ) 13 Senator Gold. 14 (There was no response. ) 15 Senator Hoffmann. 16 (There was no response. ) 17 Senator Kruger. 18 (There was no response. ) 19 Senator Waldon. 20 (There was no response. ) 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 22 the results. 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 32, nays 11218 1 20. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 Senator Goodman. 5 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President, 6 there will be an immediate meeting of the 7 Committee on Investigations, Taxation and 8 Government Operations in the Republican 9 Conference Room, 332. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 11 will be an immediate meeting of the Committee on 12 Investigations, Taxation and Governmental 13 Operations in the Majority Conference Room, Room 14 332. Immediate meeting of the Committee on 15 Investigations, Taxation and Governmental 16 Operations in the Majority Conference Room, Room 17 332. 18 Secretary will continue to call 19 the controversial calendar. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar number 21 1457, substituted earlier today, by member of 22 the Assembly Eve, Assembly Print 5950A, an act 23 to amend the General Business Law, in relation 11219 1 to delinquent accounts. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 4 bill aside. 5 Chair recognizes Senator Nozzolio 6 for an announcement. 7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. There will be a meeting of the Crime 9 Victims, Crime and Corrections Committee in the 10 Senate Majority Leader's Conference Room 11 following Senator Goodman's committee, should be 12 in about ten minutes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Meeting 14 of the Crime Victims and Crime and Correction 15 Committee immediately following the Investiga 16 tion, Taxation and Governmental Operations 17 Committee in the Majority Conference Room, Room 18 332, approximately ten minutes. 19 Senator Paterson, why do you 20 rise? 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 22 I asked for an explanation on Calendar Number 23 1457. 11220 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 2 was laid aside, Senator Paterson. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: I -- what I 4 would like to report is that I don't need an 5 explanation on it. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 7 is laid aside anyway. Thank you for your help, 8 Senator Paterson. 9 Secretary will continue to call 10 the controversial calendar. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1501, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 3377A, an 13 act to amend the General Municipal Law, in 14 relation to conflict of interest. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 16 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explanation. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Seward, an explanation has been asked for 19 jointly by Senator Paterson and Senator 20 Stachowski. 21 SENATOR SEWARD: Lay it aside 22 temporarily. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 11221 1 bill aside temporarily. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 1504, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 3789A, an 4 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in 5 relation to making technical and clarifying 6 amendments. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Larkin, an explanation of Calendar Number 1504 10 has been asked for by the Deputy Minority 11 Leader, Senator Paterson. 12 SENATOR LARKIN: Senator 13 Paterson, this bill makes some technical and 14 clarifying changes in the real property tax 15 administration. It clarifies that city and 16 county charters, tax acts, administrative codes 17 may authorize a meeting of the boards of 18 assessment review to be on a date other than the 19 fourth Tuesday of May. 20 It specifies that state lands 21 shall be assessed at the same uniform percentage 22 of value as other property in the assessing unit 23 following a reval' or an update. It provides 11222 1 for the Board of Real Property Services which 2 used to be known as E and A to establish the 3 residential assessment ratios at least 60 days 4 prior to the date for filing of the roll. 5 This is a program bill from 6 Office of Real Property Services and we have had 7 no memos in opposition. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: O.K. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 17. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes - 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 18 the results when tabulated. 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52, nays 1, 20 Senator Gold recorded in the negative. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11223 1 1505, substituted earlier today, by member of 2 the Assembly Kaufman, Assembly Print 5954C, an 3 act to amend the General Business Law, the 4 Public Health Law and the Vehicle and Traffic 5 Law, in relation to safety requirements. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Velella, an explanation of Calendar 1505 has 9 been asked for by Senator Stachowski. 10 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, Mr. 11 President. 12 This bill requires that in-line 13 skaters or rollerblade skaters under the age of 14 14 are required to wear helmets, requires that a 15 notice be attached to in-line skates indicating 16 that protective gear is required to be worn when 17 skating, requires such notice in stores where 18 in-line skates are sold, prohibits the use of 19 in-line skates not equipped with stoppers and 20 authorizes the Commissioner to adopt an in-line 21 skating helmet safety program and conforms the 22 requirements of the in-line skating to the 23 bicycle law in this state, and also requires 11224 1 that the in-line skaters in this state wear the 2 protective gear. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Velella, excuse the interruption. 5 Senator Saland, Senator Leibell, 6 can we take the conversation out of the chamber, 7 Senator Holland. The Sergeant-at-Arms please 8 make sure the conversations are taking place 9 outside of the chamber. 10 Senator Stachowski? 11 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 12 President, if Senator Velella would yield to a 13 couple of questions? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Velella, would you yield? 16 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 17 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Senator, you 18 said it's only the wearing of helmets for people 19 under 14 and merely a warning on the skates or 20 on the skate box that they should be -- that the 21 users of the skates should be wearing all the 22 other equipment, i.e., wrist guards, that sort 23 of thing, and knee guards. 11225 1 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, yes. 2 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Now, if the 3 Senator would yield to one other question. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Continue 5 to yield, Senator Velella? 6 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 continues to yield. 9 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: It's a two 10 part question. One would be what would be the 11 penalties to people who didn't wear this 12 equipment, and who would enforce it and make 13 sure like, would it be the police that would be 14 picking up these kids, and what would be the 15 penalty to them if they didn't wear it? 16 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, like they 17 do with the bicycle law, there can be tickets 18 issued and summonses issued but it's more of a 19 policeman's enforcing of the laws and telling 20 young people that they should be wearing 21 helmets. I don't know of any catastrophes or 22 unjust decisions that have been made or harsh 23 penalties that have been imposed on young people 11226 1 who ride bicycles without helmets other than the 2 policeman telling them, You got to get a helmet 3 and warning them, and I don't know how many 4 tickets have been issued in the state, but it's 5 a matter of making the parents aware of the fact 6 that their children can suffer major injuries if 7 they don't wear protective gear and devices. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 9 will read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 17. This 11 act shall take effect January 1. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 16 the results when tabulated. 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53, nays 1, 18 Senator Johnson recorded in the negative. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 1510, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 4379A, an 23 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in 11227 1 relation to the powers of certain special 2 patrolmen. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4 will read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 12 is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 1522, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 5378, an act 15 to amend the State Finance Law, in relation to 16 court facilities. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 18 bill aside for the day. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack 20 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 21 Assembly Bill Number 8161A, and substitute it 22 for the identical Calendar Number 1523. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 11228 1 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read 2 the title. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 1523, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, 5 Assembly Print Number 8161A, an act to amend the 6 Alcoholic Beverage Control Law, in relation to 7 storage of alcoholic beverages. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Bill is 9 before the house. Secretary will read the last 10 section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 12 act shall take effect January 1st. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 1524, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 5431, an 21 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 22 clarifying and revising liability insurance 23 requirements. 11229 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Velella, an explanation of Calendar Number 1524 4 has been asked for by Senator Paterson. 5 SENATOR VELELLA: In our existing 6 law, there are directors and officers liability 7 policies for different types of corporations, 8 the business corporation, the not-for-profit 9 corporation and a variety of different types of 10 corporations. 11 This conforms all the various - 12 and religious corporations are another one. 13 This conforms all the various types of corpor 14 ations so that insurance companies can write a 15 directors' and officers' policy that will be - 16 that will fit each one of those separate types 17 of corporations rather than having a separate 18 designating statute and different type of policy 19 for each and every type of corporation. It 20 gives no further authority than to do that, than 21 to allow them to write those types of policies 22 for all different various corporations. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11230 1 Solomon. 2 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes, will 3 Senator Velella yield, please? 4 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 yields. 7 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, under 8 this legislation which I'm just looking at right 9 now, has there been any -- has there been any 10 study done or any information given to you 11 regarding the change in rates this might have 12 for not-for-profit corporations? 13 SENATOR VELELLA: I'm sorry. 14 SENATOR SOLOMON: Any change in 15 rates on not-for-profit corporations on 16 directors' and officers' insurance as compared 17 to private corporations? 18 SENATOR VELELLA: No, it was my 19 understanding that rates would be set and 20 determined by the Department based on filings 21 that would be made there. This would just be a 22 means of addressing the language within the 23 policies so that directors and officers would be 11231 1 treated alike for the various corporations. 2 SENATOR SOLOMON: Will the 3 Senator - 4 SENATOR VELELLA: To answer your 5 question, Senator, there has not been an 6 independent study done on that. 7 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator Velella 8 yield, please, for another question? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 continue to yield? Senator continues to yield. 11 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, I'm 12 looking at page 3, paragraph (k) - 13 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 14 SENATOR SOLOMON: -- where the 15 duty to defend, where liability insurance 16 policies or contracts in regard to certain 17 classes of corporations have the duty to defend, 18 and from the allocation of costs for legal costs 19 attendant to such defense, so he may exempt the 20 policies from the liability for legal costs to 21 defend. 22 My question is this: Will this 23 provision subsequently allow another company to 11232 1 sell insurance to that same board of directors 2 to cover legal costs if they are sued? 3 SENATOR VELELLA: I don't know 4 that this either allows or prevents it. It 5 would be a possibility that someone seeing the 6 hole in coverage or lack of coverage might 7 decide to offer a product in the marketplace to 8 provide a policy that would be a gap kind of 9 insurance for directors and officers. I don't 10 know honestly if that would be allowed under the 11 existing law. 12 This bill doesn't create anything 13 to do it, but I would assume that somebody that 14 wanted to sell that product would go and file 15 with the Department and get a rate approval or 16 denial. 17 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yeah, Mr. 18 President, if Senator Velella will yield. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 continues to yield. 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 22 SENATOR SOLOMON: My concern, 23 Senator, is that in this case, that we might be 11233 1 opening up a situation where, in fact, there may 2 not be coverage available because all the 3 insurance companies offering this policy may end 4 up offering the same type of policy where they 5 don't offer this legal defense coverage. The 6 Superintendent may O.K. it, and then the 7 companies may not offer it, and my concern is 8 that there may not, in fact, be a product on the 9 marketplace, or the Superintendent may have to 10 O.K. a market, and the marketplace, we may have 11 a window there where there's no coverage avail 12 able for legal defenses which can be substantial 13 in this type of lawsuit, and that's what I'm 14 concerned about especially with this type of 15 legislation. If you believe, in fact, that that 16 would be available or that they can purchase 17 this type of insurance in view of the fact of 18 the intent of this legislation, and that was 19 stated on the floor, that might be more helpful, 20 I think. I'm concerned about that. 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, I 22 couldn't in good faith represent to you, of my 23 own personal knowledge at this time, that this 11234 1 insurance coverage is available, but I can say 2 that we are not creating any gap that a company 3 could not do at the present time. They could 4 choose to withdraw from the market and choose to 5 withdraw offering those types of policies. I 6 don't think we're doing anything to encourage 7 that. If anything, we would maybe be creating a 8 market for an insurer to come in and provide 9 that, as I said before, gap insurance. Is it 10 available now? I couldn't tell you in good 11 faith. 12 SENATOR SOLOMON: O.K. Thank 13 you. Mr. President, on the bill. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Solomon, on the bill. 16 SENATOR SOLOMON: I have no 17 problem with the intent of this legislation, but 18 in terms of my questions and the answers from 19 Senator Velella, my concerns are obvious that 20 hopefully there is a product that would cover 21 this loophole that could be created and again 22 this loophole can only be created if the 23 Superintendent implements this action through 11235 1 regulation which would, in fact, take away the 2 coverage of legal costs, but I dare say -- hope 3 that we would have companies that would offer 4 that type of policy, and I would hope that they 5 would be allowed to offer that policy under the 6 laws and, as explained by Senator Velella, I 7 hope that we don't have anything that prohibits 8 it at this present time because that could be 9 the one danger in this particular case 10 especially for not-for-profit corporations which 11 are, in many instances, strapped for cash and 12 would not have funds readily available to pay 13 for their own legal costs, and it would be a 14 very important product to offer those 15 corporations. 16 Thank you. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 18 will read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 20 act shall take effect on the 30th day. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11236 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1525, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 5433. 6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Lay it aside 7 for the day. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 9 bill aside for the day. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1527, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5479, an 12 act to in enact the Persistent Child Predator 13 Act. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Volker, an explanation of Calendar Number 1527 17 has been asked for by the Deputy Minority 18 Leader, Senator Paterson. 19 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 20 this bill, which is entitled part of -- which is 21 termed the Persistent Child Sexual Predator Act 22 is a continuation of a series of bills that we 23 have passed during this session that toughens up 11237 1 sentencing rules in a number of areas of the law 2 in New York, and I don't think many of us have 3 completely recognized the enormity of what has 4 already occurred at this session and which this 5 bill represents another step in moving New 6 York's penal laws toward a policy that takes 7 people who have been persistent in, and what we 8 call multiple felons, and subjects them to some 9 severe sentencing. 10 What this bill does is to change 11 the law or the statutes which presently would 12 allow someone who is guilty of molestation of a 13 child under 14 years old in a previous case and 14 now is charged on a second time or in some cases 15 possibly a third time, depending on clearly the 16 situation when this -- when this crime occurs, 17 instead of being subject to as little as two 18 years in jail or a minimum of two to seven 19 years, I believe it is, that person would be 20 subject to a minimum of 15 to 25 years and could 21 be subject to a life term which, in our jargon, 22 would mean a maximum of 25 years to life. 23 This is a tough bill. It is a 11238 1 recognition of the fact that sexual predators 2 today have become such a problem in our society 3 that it is believed that we should dramatically 4 boost up the sentencing process and that's what 5 is done here. 6 This is a Governor's program bill 7 and it is a bill, I think, that we should look 8 at very thoroughly as something that tries to 9 deal with a severe problem and that is attacks 10 on children in our society. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the last section. 13 Excuse me. Senator Leichter. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. If 15 Senator Volker would yield? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Volker, do you yield to a question from Senator 18 Leichter? 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 20 certainly - 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 yields. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Certainly 11239 1 crimes against young people, particularly sexual 2 crimes, are very serious, must be treated 3 seriously by our society, and people who are 4 guilty of that must be severely punished. 5 There's no argument on that. I'm not so sure 6 that there's an epidemic, as you have almost 7 portrayed it, of sexual molestation. I haven't 8 seen figures that show that to be the case, 9 although we've had one or two well-publicized 10 tragic incidents. 11 But let me -- I just wanted to 12 make clear exactly which sexual crimes become 13 the basis for what could be a -- an A-1 felony 14 indictment or a conviction. 15 SENATOR VOLKER: First of all, 16 these are crimes against children, understand, 17 who are under 14 years of age. That is the 18 critical category, and these are the first 19 offense which would be what today we would term 20 a VFO means those crimes that would be 21 considered in this state or in another state 22 where a child is subjected to, for instance, a 23 sexual assault, a molestation or whatever, and 11240 1 that's under sections -- Article 70, I believe 2 it is of the Penal Law, and the person -- I'm 3 sorry, yeah, Article 78, but under Section 130. 4 30, and those are various subdivisions that 5 relate to attacks on children, these are not 6 minor offenses. They are all what can be 7 considered as serious offenses against children 8 under 14 years of age. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 10 if Senator Volker - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Volker, you continue to yield? Senator 13 continues to yield. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: I appreciate 15 your courtesy in always answering and answering 16 candidly, but you're being very general today. 17 What I want is specific, so these are serious 18 crimes; these are serious offenses. 19 SENATOR VOLKER: All right. You 20 want - 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: What exactly, 22 when you say an assault against a child? 23 SENATOR VOLKER: All right. Let 11241 1 me give you an example, a for instance. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Would it be 3 rape, for example? 4 SENATOR VOLKER: That's an 5 example. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. 7 SENATOR VOLKER: You could have 8 sodomy; there would be a whole lot of offenses 9 against a child. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Could it be a 11 crime of exposing oneself to a child? 12 SENATOR VOLKER: No, no. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Could there be 14 another child involved? 15 SENATOR VOLKER: Not -- crimes 16 against the body of the child itself. I think 17 obviously molestation -- I shouldn't say 18 obviously. What we're talking about is a crime 19 against the body of the child itself, himself or 20 herself. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Are all of 22 them felonies? 23 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes, absolutely, 11242 1 no question they're felonies. You must be 2 convicted of a previous child molestation felony 3 in order to be subject to this, and this is 4 another felony now, and we are not changing the 5 rules, that is the felony itself. In other 6 words, the felonies are already established. 7 What we're changing here is the sentence. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. Could it 9 -- could it include, for instance, just sort of 10 groping at a child, if you -- if you touch a 11 child in -- under the age of 14 or touch the 12 child's backside? 13 SENATOR VOLKER: Absolutely not. 14 You have to have much more serious -- my counsel 15 here outlined the rape second, rape first, where 16 the victim -- these are victims are less than 17 11, sodomy second, sodomy first, again with a 18 victim who is less than 11; sexual abuse, and 19 again you understand, the person is less than 20 11. 21 I mean you have to have more than 22 just a groping, as you know. Sexual abuse in 23 the first degree is an abuse that deals directly 11243 1 with the body of that child. Section 1 (c) of 2 130.70 is aggravated abuse first and that is on 3 a child who is less than 11 years of age again, 4 so you're talking not about minor violations 5 here. You're not talking about misdemeanors; 6 you're talking about serious violations. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 8 if Senator Volker will continue to yield, 9 please? 10 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 continues to yield. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I've 14 been handed a chart here. I don't have the 15 section to which it relates, but it shows that 16 sexual abuse in the second degree is a 17 misdemeanor. 18 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Now, I asked 20 you whether misdemeanors are included, and you 21 said absolutely not. 22 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Based on what 11244 1 I now have in my hands, does it appear that we 2 are -- you are including a misdemeanor? 3 SENATOR VOLKER: No. Sexual 4 abuse in the first degree is in the misde 5 meanor. Sexual abuse in the first degree is a 6 felony. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: A felony. 8 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: But you sure 10 this does not include sexual abuse in the second 11 degree? 12 SENATOR VOLKER: Absolutely not. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Could you wait 14 just one second, Senator, while maybe our 15 counsels could just check on this? 16 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, I just 17 pointed out to my counsel in that one instance 18 you're right that in that one instance -- sexual 19 abuse in the second degree, I'm sorry, but I was 20 under the impression in that one case, sexual 21 abuse in the second degree, which is a Class A 22 misdemeanor and this is on a person under 11 23 years of age, right? 11245 1 VOICE OF COUNSEL: Less than 14. 2 SENATOR VOLKER: Less than 14 3 years of age. In that one case this could 4 subject that person to the -- to the provision 5 of this statute. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 7 Volker, doesn't that seem to you quite extreme? 8 I mean, if I read your bill that if you commit 9 that particular sexual abuse in the second 10 degree, which is a misdemeanor, you do it the 11 second time - 12 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- you're 14 going to send that person to a sentence of 15 to 15 25 years to life? 16 SENATOR VOLKER: Possible it 17 could be, that's correct, and it is -- first of 18 all, there are comparatively few people that are 19 convicted of that kind of crime and, if they 20 are, remember we're talking about a second or 21 third or multiple offense here. Many of the 22 people involved in these kinds of crimes are 23 involved in multiple offenses over a period of 11246 1 years. 2 If this bill passes now, what 3 will happen is the next one could subject them 4 to a severe penalty. Nobody says that they have 5 to be necessarily subjected to severe penalty, 6 but if they are convicted of these kinds of 7 offenses, then they would have to be sentenced 8 in effect to a minimum of 15 years in jail, and 9 you're correct. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, would 11 you consider amending the bill and taking out 12 the misdemeanor? I mean I just think that's 13 extreme. I have no problem somebody commits 14 rape a second time or commits sodomy a second 15 time, commits a serious aggravated sexual abuse, 16 but somebody who commits a misdemeanor -- and 17 it's bad; nobody is saying, Oh, well, this is 18 insignificant. It is significant -- that person 19 should be punished if he does it the second 20 time. It ought to be a felony, ought to go to 21 jail, but 15 years to 25, minimum of 15 years 22 for having committed a misdemeanor the second 23 time? I -- I think that's unreasonable. 11247 1 SENATOR VOLKER: Yeah, Senator, I 2 certainly would be willing to talk to the 3 Governor if you could talk to the Assembly about 4 maybe this bill would go if we amend it, that 5 would be fine. My answer is, though, despite 6 the fact that it's a misdemeanor, it's a Class A 7 misdemeanor, a serious crime against the person 8 of a young child. 9 It may seem severe, but I think 10 these are -- these are tough and serious 11 problems, and I guess my response is certainly 12 we would look at that, but I think still these 13 are all serious crimes, and I think we have to 14 take serious and strong measures under the 15 circumstances that we're in. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 17 on the -- on the bill. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Leichter, on the bill. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: I hadn't seen 21 this bill before, but one of the things I wanted 22 to check into is whether we're casting such a 23 wide net that people who are really not a major 11248 1 threat to society are being sent to -- to jail 2 for extremely long sentences. 3 One of the reasons I voted 4 against this house version of the "Megan Law" 5 which now may become law because I understand 6 the Assembly is going to go with it, is that we 7 included misdemeanors, we included acts that 8 really were not serious. Here, if this bill 9 related to rape one, rape two, sodomy one, 10 sodomy two, that would be fine, but you are now 11 including a situation where a 17-year-old who 12 fondles a -- a child under the age of 14 commits 13 a misdemeanor. 14 That's certainly -- it's a wrong 15 act; it's a violation. It should be punished, 16 and so on. Does it a second time. You going to 17 send him to jail for a minimum of 15 years, 15 18 to 25 years? I think it's just unreasonable. I 19 mean I know it looks good, we're going to be 20 tough and we're going to be harsh and we're 21 going -- we're -- we're going to take care of 22 the miscreants in our society, but there's got 23 to be some element of justice, some element of 11249 1 fairness, some element of reason, some element 2 of sense. 3 I mean if we're just doing this 4 politically and beating our chests and, Look how 5 much we're doing, well, then maybe throw any act 6 in and say we're going to send people to jail 7 15, 25 years. I -- I assume there'll be support 8 among the public for doing this, but I think, 9 well, we're becoming a pretty harsh and a pretty 10 oppressive society, and I just want to say this 11 -- this house which is so concerned about, you 12 know, abuse to children when it's reflected in 13 "Megan's Law" or reflected in this bill, that 14 you didn't seem to have much compunction about 15 cutting $90 million out of the budget for 16 protective and preventive services trying to 17 keep children from being abused whether in their 18 home or in the foster home or in some other 19 setting. That's going to create much more 20 danger, much more harm, much more abuse to 21 children. 22 I know it's tough to vote against 23 these bills, and somebody can have a field day 11250 1 with me saying, Oh, he voted against a bill 2 which was meant to protect children under the 3 age of 14, but it's just wrong. It is wrong to 4 say that a second time you commit a misdemeanor 5 which is still considered a relatively minor 6 offense, we're going to send somebody to jail 15 7 to 25 years. I can't vote for that. 8 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Volker. 11 SENATOR VOLKER: Just one quick 12 comment. 13 Senator Leichter, I guess 14 sometimes I agree with your assessment on a 15 number of things. I would have to correct one 16 thing though. I don't think I would consider 17 sexual abuse in the second degree to be a 18 comparatively minor offense. This is on a child 19 of 14 years of age and under, and you're 20 probably talking about somebody who -- and 21 depending on a situation that would certainly I 22 think come out, who is involved in a number of 23 offenses, and even a Class A misdemeanor is 11251 1 certainly a serious offense. 2 That's something we will 3 certainly look at, and I guess I would ask you 4 the question -- let me finish, Senator. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Sure. 6 SENATOR VOLKER: I think before 7 you cast "Megan's Law" and all these other 8 things into perspective -- and I'm one of those 9 people that was one of the counters that you 10 were, and I was involved in the largest rape 11 investigation in upstate New York's history many 12 years ago, as I've told you. 13 One thing we've learned over the 14 years about sexual predators and, as we learned 15 in the Rochester murders, that the profile of 16 sexual predators is -- first of all, when you 17 said is it epidemic, Senator, it is. Let me 18 tell you, it is epidemic. The numbers of 19 everything I've seen that indicates that what we 20 thought of years ago was nothing compared to 21 what's happening today; but what the case in 22 Rochester showed to us, here we had a child 23 molester who was involved in cases up in the 11252 1 North Country and, because of that was one of 2 the reasons why he wasn't looked at in terms of 3 the killing of a group of women. Unfortunately, 4 we find that the sort of people who are involved 5 in this tend to be people who can transfer over 6 to other forms of victim exploitation. 7 I guess my answer to you is, that 8 since we don't have the answer at this point by 9 any means how to handle these people from the - 10 the counseling point of view, and so forth, 11 although we're trying to deal with that as best 12 we can, in many cases when we're dealing with 13 children, the best answer at this point, no 14 question, is to set up such a severe penalty 15 that we send a message way beyond something that 16 we would normally do, and I think that's what 17 this bill does. 18 I think it attempts to deal with 19 a problem that I guess I would say to you, I 20 guess I would say to you is of epidemic 21 proportions, and I think it's serious enough to 22 take what would amount to draconian measures. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 11253 1 if Senator Volker would yield, please. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Volker, do you yield, please? 4 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Volker will yield. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, am I 8 correct, and I'm not expert in this area and I 9 concede your knowledge in this area and that's 10 partly the reason I'm asking you, sexual abuse 11 in the second degree misdemeanor, if a 17-year 12 sold gropes at a female under the age of 14, 13 touches her in her private parts, is that not 14 sexual abuse in the second degree? 15 SENATOR VOLKER: It could be, 16 Senator. It could be, in rare circumstances, 17 that's true, but normally speaking, it is a more 18 serious offense than that, but you're right, it 19 could be. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Right. So 21 unfortunately, these are things that have been 22 happening in schools among young people for 23 certainly many years. They're at street corners 11254 1 or in the school or somebody like that and 2 somebody misbehaves, nobody is justifying or 3 sanctioning this behavior, but he reaches for 4 somebody under the age of 14 and touches her in 5 an offensive manner but doesn't do any other 6 harm and then he's convicted of a Class A 7 misdemeanor, as he should be. Then he does it 8 again. Now, you're saying you're going to send 9 him to jail for 15 years? I -- I can't -- I 10 can't understand that. 11 But let me also ask you this 12 question, Senator: Where's the epidemic? Where 13 is the -- where -- where are your facts and 14 figures? I mean you and I have discussed this 15 before, the tendency in this house to rely on 16 anecdotal evidence. Where is -- where is your 17 -- where is your statistics as to that we've 18 had an enormous increase in crimes, sexual 19 crimes against young women? 20 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, I 21 realize that myself, my colleagues, Senator, 22 where have we been? Have you been noticing the 23 pictures of people over in the Capitol who have 11255 1 been grabbed and killed and taken away? Senator, 2 I -- I can't -- what is the Adam Walsh -- the 3 institute that's been set up, the numbers of 4 young people who have been kidnapped right off 5 the streets in this state alone, incredibly have 6 multiplied over the years. 7 Now, we used to think that that 8 sort of thing only happened in the big cities of 9 this country. All you have to do is look out 10 there to see that it's just not happening in the 11 big cities. Senator, no one that I know of 12 that's involved in criminal justice believes 13 that the situation, as far as sexual predators 14 is concerned, has not changed over the last ten 15 to 15 years. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: You are taking 17 the - 18 SENATOR VOLKER: The feeling very 19 strongly is, and the evidence, Senator, is there 20 in the fact that the general public is 21 organizing itself saying that society can't 22 protect them from what is going on and that is 23 why the institutes have been set up. That's why 11256 1 the Missing Children Alliance has been set up. 2 That's why we have all these people around here 3 lobbying in behalf of young people, lobbying in 4 behalf of people who -- who have been attacked; 5 and, by the way, Senator, you and I participated 6 in hearings across the state here a few years 7 ago on the issue of -- of child sex attacks, one 8 of the most chilling hearings I've ever held 9 since I've been in the Legislature, much less 10 chairman of Codes, that pointed out that the 11 number of offenses against children in families 12 alone was absolutely astronomical. 13 So I -- I can only tell you, 14 Senator, all the figures I have ever seen and 15 all the information that I have ever gotten is 16 -- indicates to me that this issue, that this 17 issue of child sex offenses has become an 18 enormous problem and, if we don't deal with it, 19 it will become an even bigger problem in the 20 future. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 22 take it your answer to my question, though, is 23 you do not have any statistics, you have no 11257 1 data, but you do have some anecdotal evidence? 2 SENATOR VOLKER: The answer is 3 no, I have -- we have -- if you want, we will 4 get you thousands of pages if you really want to 5 that show the numbers of offenses that are 6 involved, but, Senator, all you have to do, I 7 suggest when you go home tonight it will be 8 doubtful that we'll watch a television broadcast 9 without some sort of indication of something 10 that happened some place in this country or this 11 state involving sexual attacks on children. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, let 13 me say to you, if you read Freud, you'll read 14 about all the instances of sexual abuse that 15 occurred within the family, and that was at the 16 turn of the Century. I'm not aware that we've 17 had any radical great increase. I -- we have 18 cases. There may even have been some increase, 19 but whether there has been a statistical - 20 statistical evidence showing that there has been 21 a significant increase per capita, I've never 22 seen those figures and, if you have it, I'd be 23 delighted to see it. 11258 1 Let me just ask you one other 2 question if you'd be good enough to yield. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Volker, you continue to yield? Senator Volker 5 continues to yield. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Has this bill 7 been submitted to the District Attorneys 8 Association; has it been submitted to the 9 Supreme Court Justices; do we have any comments 10 by bar associations on this bill? 11 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, as far 12 as I know we have -- not me. This is not - 13 this is a Governor's program bill; it was not a 14 bill that we had developed, but let me suggest 15 to you that I think you're aware that my 16 committee has been looking into this issue, in 17 fact, introduced a bill before the committee 18 that we were talking about, in fact have 19 continued to, and I think we will have hearings 20 on the issue of sexual predators. 21 We have submitted a number of 22 bills to the various DAs, and so forth, and to 23 my knowledge, I don't know whether the 11259 1 Governor's office has submitted -- my guess is 2 they have, because on this agenda and this 3 calendar is a bill that the DAs are very, very 4 interested in. It's part of a whole package of 5 bills. 6 As far as whether we have 7 received comments or not, that I'm not aware 8 of. I don't know if the Governor's office is or 9 not, but as to whether we have received anything 10 from DAs and judges, no, we haven't. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: All right. 12 Just finally again, on the bill. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Leichter again, on the bill. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: I have 16 difficulty understanding the rationale and the 17 sense of a bill that says that when you commit a 18 rape for the second time, you get sentenced to 19 15 to 25 years which doesn't bother me at all, 20 but if you grope at a woman under the age of 14 21 and you do that twice, a misdemeanor, you get 22 sentenced for exactly the same term as you would 23 if you had committed rape twice. 11260 1 Does that make sense? I'm just 2 sorry that we just seem to be playing to the 3 gallery instead of having serious workable 4 criminal legislation. I just find that, in this 5 respect, I think that this bill just goes far 6 off base, and I think it's unfortunate. 7 I think you ought to amend it, 8 Senator Volker, whether it's a Governor's bill 9 or not. You know it's not going to pass the 10 Assembly, but maybe that's what the Governor 11 wants, and he'll have another 30-second sound 12 bite, but amend it, take out the sexual abuse 13 for a misdemeanor. Sexual abuse one which is a 14 "D" felony, maybe shorten the period on that 15 and I think you've got a bill that I think 16 people would say makes some sense, but I think 17 this bill does not. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 19 will read the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect on the first day of 22 November. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11261 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 4 the results when tabulated. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Senator would like 6 to explain her vote. 7 SENATOR ABATE: I'd like to 8 explain my vote. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Abate, to explain your vote? 11 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, I'd like to 12 explain my vote. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Abate, to explain her vote. 15 SENATOR ABATE: I would very much 16 have liked to support this piece of legislation 17 but because sexual abuse in the second degree as 18 an "A" misdemeanor is included, I will not be 19 able to, and I hope that Senator Volker would, 20 in the future, consider eliminating the "A" 21 misdemeanor. I mean all of us know that certain 22 sex offenders, recidivists, are very dangerous 23 to society, but we have to look very carefully 11262 1 when we remove the discretion from the judge and 2 say to that judge, when someone is convicted 3 twice of a crime, that they have no discretion 4 but to sentence that individual to 15 to 25 5 years to life, and I see many cases in court 6 where the sexual abuse of the second degree 7 which is an "A" misdemeanor, kids upon kids, 8 situations on the subway where someone is 9 accused of touching someone's buttocks or 10 breast, that could happen twice on a subway, 11 again the sexual abuse in the second degree 12 could be more serious, but there are occasions 13 when people are convicted of what I call, I mean 14 intolerant, terrible behavior, but I'm not 15 saying, suggesting that someone should be given 16 a life sentence for that behavior. 17 I could support this bill if it 18 were amended and eliminated the "A" misdemeanor 19 charges. Again, what we need to do is produce 20 longer sentences for recidivists and what we're 21 doing is to take away the discretion from the 22 judge. It should be done carefully for the most 23 violent offenders, the most heinous offenders 11263 1 and the most dangerous offenders. 2 This bill is too broad and, for 3 this reason, I can not support it. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 5 the results. 6 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 7 the negative on Calendar Number 1527 are 8 Senators Abate, Leichter and Paterson. Ayes 51, 9 nays 3. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 12 is passed. 13 Senator Skelos, we have some 14 housekeeping. You want to return to motions and 15 resolutions? 16 Chair recognizes Senator Gold. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you very 18 much. 19 On behalf of Senator Stachowski 20 involved in other work right now, I wish to call 21 up his Print 1671A, recalled from the Assembly, 22 which is now at the desk. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11264 1 will read the title. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 737, by Senator Stachowski, Senate Print 1671A, 4 an act to amend the General Municipal Law. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Gold. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I 8 now move to reconsider the vote by which this 9 bill has passed -- was passed, period. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 11 to reconsider the vote by which the bill passed 12 the house. The Secretary will call the roll on 13 reconsideration. 14 (The Secretary called the roll on 15 reconsideration. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Gold. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Now, Mr. 20 President, in order to keep the chamber moving 21 at a proper pace and in order not to disturb 22 Senator Stachowski who is involved in other very 23 serious work at the present time, I offer the 11265 1 following amendments and move their adoption and 2 ask the bill retain its place on the calendar. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 4 Amendments are received and adopted. Bill will 5 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 6 Senator Skelos. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr. 8 President, would you first recognize Senator 9 Maziarz. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 11 recognizes Senator Maziarz. 12 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President, 13 I'd ask unanimous consent to be recorded 14 negative on Calendar Number 1505, please. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 16 objection and hearing no objection, Senator 17 Maziarz will be recorded in the negative on 18 Calendar Number 1505 -- 1-5-0-5. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: And, Mr. 20 President, prior to recognizing Senator Present 21 for some housekeeping, there will be an 22 immediate meeting of the Finance Committee in 23 Room 332 of the Capitol. 11266 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Immediate 2 meeting of the Finance Committee in the Majority 3 Conference Room, Room 332. Immediate meeting of 4 the Senate Finance Committee in the Majority 5 Conference Room, Room 332. 6 Senator Present. 7 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 8 on behalf of Senator Bruno, I wish to call up 9 his Print 5416, recalled from the Assembly which 10 is now at the desk. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the title. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 1460, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate 15 Print Number 5416, an act to amend the Tax Law 16 and Chapter 272 of the Laws of 1991. 17 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 18 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 19 bill was passed. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll on reconsideration. 22 (The Secretary called the roll on 23 reconsideration. ) 11267 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 2 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 3 it's restored to third place reading. I offer 4 the following amendments. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 6 Amendments are received and adopted, Senator 7 Present. 8 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 9 on behalf of Senator Padavan, I wish to call up 10 Print Number 4753, recalled from the Assembly 11 which is now at the desk. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 1516, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 4753, an 14 act to amend the General Municipal Law, in 15 relation to providing coverage for injuries. 16 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 17 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 18 bill was passed. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will call the roll on reconsideration. 21 (The Secretary called the roll on 22 reconsideration.) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 11268 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 2 I now offer the following amendments. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 4 Amendments are received and adopted. 5 Senator Present. 6 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 7 on behalf of Senator Tully, on page 7, 8 Supplemental Calendar, I offer the following 9 amendments to Calendar 1528, Senate Print 5480, 10 and ask that it retain its place on the Third 11 Reading Calendar. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 13 Amendments are received and adopted. The bill 14 will retain its place on the Third Reading 15 Calendar. 16 Senator Present. 17 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 18 on behalf of Senator Goodman, I wish to call up 19 his bill, Print 3419, recalled from the Assembly 20 which is now at the desk. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will read the title. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11269 1 739, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 3419, an 2 act to amend the General City Law and others, in 3 relation to authorizing the establishment of the 4 New York City Tribunal. 5 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 6 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 7 bill was passed. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 9 will call the roll on reconsideration. 10 (The Secretary called the roll on 11 reconsideration.) 12 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 13 I offer the following amendments. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 15 Amendments are received and adopted. Senator 16 Skelos, we have one substitution at the desk. 17 SENATOR SKELOS: Please make the 18 substitution. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Ask the 20 Secretary to read. 21 THE SECRETARY: On page 4, 22 Senator Holland moves to discharge from the 23 Committee on Rules Assembly 3037A and substitute 11270 1 it for the identical Calendar Number 515. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 3 Substitution is ordered. 4 Senator Skelos. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 6 would you please recognize Senator Paterson. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 8 on behalf of Senator Connor who has handed up a 9 memorandum, and there is a memorandum to alter 10 the -- to provide notice of Senator Connor's 11 intention to alter the rules, the intention will 12 be to change the rules of the Senate on July 29, 13 1995 which would require one day's notice under 14 Rule XI, and the - 15 SENATOR SKELOS: July 29th, I 16 won't be here. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Sorry, Mr. 18 President. It's July 29th. I'm just thinking 19 ahead. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: June 29th. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: I know. It's 22 June 29th, Mr. Senator, Mr. President. Now, the 23 rules would be altered so that the fourth 11271 1 Thursday in June rather than the second Tuesday 2 in April would be the last day for motions to 3 discharge, motions for discharge, and under Rule 4 XI Senator Connor intends to move to discharge 5 Senate Bill 5519 from the Committee on Rules. 6 This bill relates to increasing the minimum wage 7 here in the state of New York. 8 Mr. President, I'd like to note 9 that tomorrow, June 29th, will be the fifth 10 Thursday in the month of June. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 record will reflect, Senator Paterson, that 13 you're filing a notice of intention to bring a 14 motion to change the rules tomorrow. 15 Senator Skelos. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 17 if we could continue regular order. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 19 will continue to call the controversial 20 calendar, Supplemental Calendar 1. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 1529, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5491, an 23 act to amend Chapter 737 of the Laws of 1994. 11272 1 SENATOR VOLKER: Lay aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 3 bill aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1530, by the Senate Committee on Rules, an act 6 to amend the Criminal Procedure Law and the 7 Public Authorities Law, in relation to peace 8 officer status. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 1532, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5499, an 21 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law Reform 22 Act of 1995. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11273 1 will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 11. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 bill's passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1536, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 5517, an 12 act to amend the Tax Law and Chapter 190 of the 13 Laws of 1990, amending the Business Corporation 14 Law. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 16 will read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 18 act shall take effect on the same date as such 19 chapter of 1995. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Could we have 11274 1 an explanation? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Withdraw 3 the roll call. 4 Senator DiCarlo, an explanation 5 of Calendar Number 1536 has been asked for by 6 the Deputy Majority Leader, Senator Paterson. 7 SENATOR DiCARLO: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. 9 This is a technical chap... 10 amendment to the chapter to a bill which 11 previously passed both houses, to repeal the New 12 York City sales tax on interior design 13 services. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will read the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 17 act shall take effect - 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 19 THE SECRETARY: -- on the same 20 date as such chapter. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 22 if we could just lay that aside temporarily. 23 Senator Leichter is at the Finance Committee 11275 1 meeting. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 3 bill aside temporarily. 4 Secretary continue to call the 5 controversial calendar, Supplemental Calendar 6 Number 1. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman 8 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 9 Assembly Bill Number 8286 and substitute it for 10 the identical Calendar Number 1538. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 12 Substitution is ordered. The bill is high. Lay 13 the bill aside. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman 15 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 16 Assembly Bill Number 8285, and substitute it for 17 the identical Calendar Number 1539. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 19 Substitution is ordered. The bill is high. Lay 20 the bill aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 1540, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 5525, an 23 act to amend Chapter 704 of the Laws of 1991 11276 1 amending the Arts and Cultural Affairs Law. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Paterson. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Could we have 6 -- we have a couple of bills, this one and the 7 one we just discussed, and also Calendar Number 8 1532 that we just passed, Senator Leichter had 9 asked to debate those bills and what's 10 complicating the issues is that Senator Leichter 11 is in the Finance Committee right now, so I'm 12 wondering if we can just put these bills over 13 for just a few minutes until the Finance 14 Committee has completed its business. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Paterson, we have a problem with 1532. That 17 bill is out of the house and don't have any 18 control of it at this point, but we certainly 19 can honor your request relative to Senator 20 Skelos' bill. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: 1540 is my 22 bill. I'll lay that aside temporarily pending 23 the return of Senator Leichter from the Finance 11277 1 Committee. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: O.K. 1540 3 will be laid aside temporarily. 4 Senator Skelos, that completes 5 the controversial calendar excepting the two 6 bills that have been laid aside temporarily. 7 Senator Paterson, why do you 8 rise? 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 10 are we sure that Calendar 1532 is out of the 11 house, because it just passed a second ago. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: It's 13 gone. The box is empty, Senator Paterson. 14 They're gone. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Could we stand 16 at ease. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 Senate will stand at ease for a few moments. 19 (The Senate stood at ease from 20 4:37 to 4:56 p.m.) 21 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 22 Senator Skelos. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 11278 1 on two of Senator Leichter's lay asides, we've 2 had a discussion with him and he has no 3 objection at this time to the bills being called 4 up and certainly, if anybody else wants to ask a 5 question or debate the bill, they certainly 6 can. So will you please call up Calendar Number 7 1536 by Senator DiCarlo. 8 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Secretary will 9 read. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1536, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 5517, an 12 act to amend the Tax Law and Chapter 190 of the 13 Laws of 1990. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read 15 the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 17 act shall take effect on the same date as such 18 chapter. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call 20 the roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Bill 23 is passed. 11279 1 Senator - 2 SENATOR SKELOS: 1540. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 4 Secretary will read. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 1540, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 5525, an 7 act to amend Chapter 704 of the Laws of 1991. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last 9 section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call 13 the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The 17 bill is passed. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you 19 recognize Senator Paterson, please. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 21 Senator Paterson. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 23 again on behalf of Senator Connor who wants to 11280 1 provide notice of his intention to alter the 2 rules of June 29th in order to, under Rule XI, 3 specifically to amend the rules to allow for a 4 day's notice and the change of the last day to 5 offer motions to discharge from the second 6 Tuesday to the last Thursday in June which is 7 the fifth Thursday, and at that time he will 8 move to discharge from the Rules Committee 9 Senate Bill 5519 which relates to raising the 10 minimum wage in the state of New York. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Senate will 12 continue to stand at ease. 13 Is there any housekeeping at the 14 desk? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 16 Senate will stand at ease. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 18 I thought I would announce now when we adjourn 19 today, there will be an immediate conference of 20 the Minority in the Minority Conference Room, 21 Room 315 in the Capitol. 22 (The Senate stood at ease from 23 4:59 to 5:15 p.m.) 11281 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senate will come to order. 4 Chair recognizes Senator Skelos. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you please 6 recognize Senator Maltese. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Maltese. 9 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President, 10 with reference to the Senate Resolution 11 Calendar, Resolution Number JL1770 it's a 12 resolution welcoming his Holiness Pope John 13 Paul. I've been requested, and I'm pleased to 14 open that resolution to any members who may not 15 be on, if you agree, Mr. President. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Skelos. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Will you please, 20 on the regular calendar, Calendar Number 515 by 21 Senator Holland, it's indicated that it's high. 22 I believe there's an Assembly substitution that 23 would make the bill live if we could bring it up 11282 1 at this time. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Skelos, Calendar Number 515, you're correct, was 4 -- there's a substitution at the desk. That 5 was previously substituted, so the bill is 6 live. I'll ask the Secretary to read the title 7 of the bill at this time. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 515, substituted earlier today, by member of the 10 Assembly Colman, Assembly Print 3037A, an act to 11 amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to 12 designating security officers. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 22 -- or excuse me, the bill is passed. 23 Senator Skelos. 11283 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 2 -- I believe we have messages on five bills, 3 for the information of the Minority, if we can 4 now bring them up. First one is Calendar Number 5 537. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You're 7 correct, Senator Skelos. There is, or there are 8 five messages of necessity on Calendars Number 9 537, 554, 784, 1019 and 1051 at the desk. 10 Senator Skelos. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you call 12 up Calendar Number 537, Senate Bill Number 13 1098A. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will read the title of Calendar Number 537. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 537, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print Number 18 1098A, an act to amend the General Municipal 19 Law, in relation to service award programs for 20 firefighters. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator? 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Move we accept 23 the message. 11284 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 2 to accept the message of necessity at the desk. 3 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 4 (Response of "Aye.") 5 Opposed nay. 6 (There was no response. ) 7 The message is accepted. 8 Secretary will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect on the first day of 11 September. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 Senator Skelos. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 20 call up Calendar Number 554, Senate 2767B. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will read the title of Calendar Number 554. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11285 1 554, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 2767B, an 2 act to amend Chapter 207 of the Laws of 1994, 3 relating to incorporating the Twin District 4 Volunteer Firefighters' Benevolent Association. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 6 is there a message at the desk? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 8 a message at the desk. 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Move we accept. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 11 to accept the message of necessity on Calendar 12 554. All those in favor signify by saying aye. 13 (Response of "Aye.") 14 Opposed nay. 15 There was no response.) 16 The message is accepted. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Leichter. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: May I have 21 unanimous consent to be recorded negatively - 22 in the negative on 515, please. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Soon as 11286 1 we finish this one, Senator Leichter. 2 Secretary will read the last 3 section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 11 is passed. 12 Without objection, hearing no 13 objection, Senator Leichter will be recorded in 14 the negative on Calendar Number 515. 15 Senator Skelos. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 17 call up Calendar 784, Senate Bill Number 2744B. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 19 will read the title. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 784, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 2744B, an 22 act to amend the Town Law, in relation to refuse 23 and garbage districts. 11287 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 2 is there a message at the desk? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 4 is. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Move we accept. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 7 to accept the message of necessity on Calendar 8 784. All those in favor signify by saying aye. 9 (Response of "Aye.") 10 Opposed nay. 11 (There was no response. ) 12 The message is accepted. 13 Secretary will read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Which number, 20 784? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We're on 22 a roll call on 784, correct. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explain my 11288 1 vote. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 3 recognizes Senator Dollinger to explain his 4 vote. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Very, very 6 briefly, this is a local bill which we're doing 7 now with messages from the Governor which I have 8 nothing against. These look like local bills 9 that ought to pass this house and ought to 10 move. I do understand, however, there are still 11 some local bills that are still awaiting passage 12 by this house that happen to be members who 13 happen to sit on this side of the aisle, with 14 the exclusion of Senator Leibell, who joins us 15 on this side but his party is not on this side, 16 so to speak. 17 But I'm not going to vote against 18 these bills. I think it's the right thing to 19 do, get them out, get them passed, do the things 20 for our local communities. I just hope we get 21 all the local bills passed this time around. I 22 just think we ought - 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11289 1 Dollinger will be recorded in the affirmative. 2 Announce the results. 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Bill is 5 passed. 6 Senator Skelos. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 8 call up Calendar Number 1019, Senate Bill Number 9 1177A. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read the title of the Calendar Number 1019. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 1019, by Senator Sears, Senate Print 1177A, an 14 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law and the 15 Education law, in relation to the appointment of 16 security officers. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Skelos. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Move we accept 20 the - 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 22 to accept the message of necessity on Calendar 23 Number 1019. All those in favor signify by 11290 1 saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye.") 3 Opposed nay. 4 The message is accepted. 5 Secretary will read the last 6 section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is -- Senator Leichter, you wish to be recorded 15 in the negative on that? Announce the results. 16 THE SECRETARY: On Calendar 17 Number 1019, ayes 54, nays 2, Senators Leichter 18 and Stavisky recorded in the negative. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 Senator Skelos. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 23 please call up Calendar Number 1051, Senate Bill 11291 1 Number 917B. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read the title. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1051, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print Number 6 917B, an act to amend the Civil Rights Law, in 7 relation to prohibiting the non-consensual use 8 of a person's voice. 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 10 is there a message of necessity at the desk? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 12 is. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Move we accept. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 15 to accept the message of necessity on Calendar 16 1051. All those in favor signify by saying 17 aye. 18 (Response of "Aye.") 19 Opposed nay. 20 (There was no response.) 21 The message is accepted. 22 Secretary will read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 11292 1 act shall take effect on the first day of 2 November. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I have a 4 couple questions for Senator Goodman. Can we do 5 this now? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Goodman yields. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: First of all, 9 Senator, could you tell me what's the definition 10 of "person" in this portion of the law? Does it 11 include the estate of someone, number one, and 12 number two, does it include a corpse, for 13 example, one of the voices that - 14 SENATOR GOODMAN: Includes 15 neither. It does not include corpses; in other 16 words, those tend to be inaudible. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My question 18 is this, Senator: What about the immutable 19 voice of Humphrey Bogart? 20 SENATOR GOODMAN: This does not 21 apply. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just the 23 people who are currently living? 11293 1 SENATOR GOODMAN: That is 2 correct. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Through 4 you, Mr. President. I've got one more. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Goodman, do you yield to one more question? 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I happened to 8 have my voice used without my approval during 9 the political campaign season when someone took 10 one of my ads and happened to transform the ad, 11 so that instead of talking as I'm talking right 12 now, I talk as my children once refer to it by 13 saying, "Blah! Blah! Blah! Blah!" Would that 14 be a violation of this and then I could bring a 15 claim for a civil rights action violation 16 because the Republican Senate Campaign Committee 17 had used my voice without my approval and 18 manipulated it? 19 SENATOR GOODMAN: The "Blah, 20 blah" question is replete with complexity, 21 Senator, and my answer is, "Blah! Blah! Blah!" 22 (Laughter) Ouday ouyay eakspay igpay atinlay. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. 11294 1 SENATOR GOODMAN: That's pig 2 Latin, Senator. It's okay. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My question 4 is, Senator, obviously - 5 SENATOR GOODMAN: I think if this 6 relates to the use of a voice for commercial 7 purposes and unless you regard an attempt to 8 unseat you as a commercial purpose, I do not 9 believe it would apply. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, let me 11 ask another question then if Senator Goodman 12 would continue to yield. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Senator continues to yield. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Obviously, 16 I'm buying -- or my colleagues across the aisle 17 bought that time to advertise some other 18 political candidate and they used commercial 19 time and commercial airways and paid commercial 20 rates to use my voice. So my question is isn't 21 that a violation of the Civil Rights Law if this 22 bill passes because you can't use my voice 23 without my approval, isn't that correct? 11295 1 SENATOR GOODMAN: Let me see if I 2 can help by taking you to the language of the 3 bill itself. On line 3, if you'll pick up 4 halfway across the line. "Any person whose 5 name, picture or voice is used within this state 6 for advertising purposes or for the purposes of 7 trade without the written consent first obtained 8 as provided may obtain inequitable action in the 9 Supreme Court, et cetera." So as you can see 10 the bill specifically relates to advertising and 11 to commercial purpose. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well -- but 13 -- again through you, Mr. President, if Senator 14 Goodman would continue to yield. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Goodman, do you continue to yield? 17 SENATOR GOODMAN: Yes, I will. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 19 Senator yields. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: In fact, the 21 ad used against me was a commercial. It was 22 bought and paid for on commercial television. 23 It was used to advertise a candidate in a race 11296 1 against me. Wouldn't that violate this bill and 2 I would have a right to enjoin the use of my 3 picture or my voice by the Senate Republican 4 Campaign Committee if it used it against me? 5 SENATOR GOODMAN: I'm sure you 6 would not have it as anyone -- as your intention 7 to stifle anyone's First Amendment rights, but 8 my judgment is that this bill appears to have a 9 commercial purpose which probably might enable 10 you to bring suit and then the courts would be 11 willing to advise you as to whether it was 12 appropriate or not. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through you, 14 Mr. President, if Senator Goodman would yield to 15 one more question. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 Senator continues to yield. 18 SENATOR GOODMAN: I'll do my best 19 -- I'm exhausting my humble capacity to be 20 responsive on this very simple bill but I'll do 21 my best. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My question 23 isn't curbing someone's First Amendment rights 11297 1 because you're obviously curbing someone's First 2 Amendment rights. You're curbing their right to 3 use my voice or my picture in an ad for some 4 other candidate. 5 I'd simply point out that as much 6 as my voice was manipulated, there were also 7 television commercials shown in the Rochester 8 community which featured two or three sentences 9 from the opposing candidate, one candidate who 10 happened to say taxes are too high and that was 11 repeated for about a month and a half, that 12 little inflection of the voice to great humorous 13 effect in a political campaign, and it seems to 14 me that this bill does not create any specific 15 exemption for the political process, and what 16 you have here is, I believe, you are creating a 17 right on the part of a political candidate to 18 prevent the distribution of their picture or 19 their voice in a commercial used against them 20 because those commercials are just as commercial 21 as they are for Harts Mountain or for dog food, 22 we happen to sell political candidates, and I 23 would simply suggest that if this bill is going 11298 1 to become law and if this Legislature decides 2 that we want to retain some political opportun 3 ity to use each other's voices, altered or not, 4 that this bill will -- needs to be amended and, 5 believe me, having been parodied, perhaps it's a 6 difficult experience to go through, but the next 7 time it happens, I may be in Supreme Court 8 asking all of you to cough up damages because 9 you've used my voice and my picture without my 10 authority, and I'm not so sure that's what you 11 would intend, not that I wouldn't love to rush 12 off to the courts perhaps to see if I could 13 enjoin the use of that, but it seems to me that 14 there has to be some kind of exception for this 15 if that's what you want to do. 16 SENATOR GOODMAN: My answer to 17 your question is yes, Senator. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 19 Secretary will read the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect on the first day of 22 November. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11299 1 roll: 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes - 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 5 the results when tabulated. 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55, nays 1, 7 Senator Dollinger recorded in the negative. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 Senator Skelos. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 12 on the supplemental calendar, would you please 13 call up Calendar Number 1519, Senate Bill Number 14 5105-A. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Secretary will read the title to Calendar Number 17 1519 which is located on Supplemental Calendar 18 Number 1. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 1519, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 5105-A, an 21 act to amend the Uniform City Court Act, in 22 relation to the City Court of the city of 23 Poughkeepsie. 11300 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there a 2 message at the desk? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: I move we 5 accept. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 motion is to accept the message of necessity on 8 Calendar Number 1519. All those in favor 9 signify by saying aye. 10 (Response of "Aye".) 11 Opposed, nay. 12 (There was no response.) 13 The message is adopted. 14 The Secretary will read the last 15 section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll.) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 23 is passed. 11301 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 3 believe there's a report of the Finance 4 Committee at the desk. I ask that it be read. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Ask the 6 Secretary to read the report of the Finance 7 Committee. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 9 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 10 following nomination: Lloyd H. Demboski of 11 Queensbury, member of the New York State 12 Employment Relations Board. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 14 if we could perhaps just wait a minute. I think 15 Senator Bruno wants to come in. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 17 recognizes the Majority Leader, Senator Bruno, 18 on the nomination of Lloyd H. Demboski as a 19 member of the New York State Employment 20 Relations Board. 21 Senator Bruno. 22 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 23 I'm very happy to be here and speak in favor of 11302 1 a great public servant, good friend, Lloyd 2 Demboski. 3 I have known Lloyd for a lot of 4 years. We started our earlier lives together, 5 town of Queensbury. I have watched him serve in 6 county government for I can't remember how many 7 years; chair of the Legislature, chair of the 8 Finance Committee in Warren County, past county 9 leader for a lot of years, very active in the 10 community, president of many of the charitable 11 organizations, spent a lot of his time and 12 energy working on behalf of people while he 13 supported a family as a counselor at Smith 14 Barney, so he knows what the real world is all 15 about, in terms of dealing in the business 16 community, dealing with management, deal with 17 labor, dealing with a family, neighbors, 18 colleagues, and the public. 19 So I think that the Governor, in 20 his wisdom, has made a great judgment and while 21 he presently resides in Senator Stafford's 22 Senatorial District that I moved out of, Mr. 23 President, some years ago, I am proud to speak 11303 1 in his support. 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 4 recognizes Senator Stafford on the nomination. 5 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thirty years 6 ago before I often visited the southern part of 7 my district and usually after any meetings I 8 would be with Senator Bruno and Lloyd Demboski, 9 I stopped going quite so often because I usually 10 was in the intensive care unit for four to six 11 days afterward. There aren't two people who 12 worked harder or work harder in their district 13 and, Lloyd, I never pointed this out on the 14 floor before, but our Senate District is very 15 fortunate because it has two Senators, Senator 16 Bruno, and I work with him and we're very proud 17 of that. 18 I want to say just as Senator 19 Bruno has said, what a dedicated, yes, public 20 servant Lloyd Demboski has been, and he's been 21 extremely active in local government and he's 22 been extremely active in other areas of 23 political and governmental affairs. 11304 1 We're very fortunate when the 2 Governor appoints someone the caliber of Lloyd, 3 and I would say this, that very often when we're 4 in government or we're in the political fray, so 5 to speak, sometimes some of us get a bit active 6 and sometimes even a little aggressive. That 7 includes me. Lloyd never does. He's a 8 gentleman, always a gentleman, and Joe and I 9 have left meetings with him and said, how could 10 you sit there, you know, and just be so 11 composed, but he always is, and this will serve 12 him well in this responsibility and he has many, 13 many attributes, and I certainly commend him, 14 his family and also the Governor and the 15 Majority Leader for this appointment. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 17 any other Senator wishing to speak on the 18 nomination? 19 (There was no response.) 20 Hearing none, the question is on 21 the nomination of Lloyd H. Demboski. 22 Excuse me, Senator Goodman. 23 SENATOR GOODMAN: Just to add a 11305 1 geographic balance to these accolades, I would 2 simply like to say that I have known Lloyd 3 Demboski for the better part of 30 years and, in 4 my judgment, there could be no finer individual 5 to fill this post. He is a gentleman. He is a 6 scholar. He's a business executive of 7 substantial experience and is an individual of 8 impeccable integrity, and I support his 9 nomination most warmly. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 question is on the nomination of Lloyd H. 12 Demboski, of Queensbury, to become a member of 13 the New York State Employment Relations Board. 14 All those in favor of the nomination signify by 15 saying aye. 16 (Response of "Aye".) 17 Opposed, nay. 18 (There was no response.) 19 The nominee is unanimously 20 confirmed. We're very pleased to have Mr. 21 Demboski who's in the gallery to your left with 22 us. Congratulations. 23 (Applause.) 11306 1 The Secretary will continue to 2 read the report of the Finance Committee. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 4 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 5 following nomination: Terence L. Morris of 6 Burnt Hills, Commissioner of the State Insurance 7 Fund. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 9 recognizes Senator Bruno. 10 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: I defer to 12 Senator Farley, in case you're looking around, 13 Mr. President. We just had a discussion and the 14 conclusion was that the good Mr. Terry Morris 15 does reside in Senator Farley's district. 16 SENATOR FARLEY: I just want this 17 chamber to know that Senator Bruno never gives 18 up any place that he's represented or any place 19 he's lived. 20 Terry Morris was his 21 constituent. The last reapportionment he became 22 mine and Joe Bruno is constantly claiming him. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: At the 11307 1 request of the Majority Leader, the Chair 2 recognizes Senator Farley on the nomination. 3 SENATOR FARLEY: That's very nice 4 of you. Thank you, Mr. President. 5 It's with a great deal of 6 pleasure that I nominate Terry Morris as a -- as 7 an outstanding individual, a family man, a 8 businessman par excellence to the State 9 Insurance Fund. 10 Let me just say something about 11 Terry Morris who is very well known in this 12 area, but particularly his daughter is because 13 his daughter does all those Terry Morris 14 commercials that you hear on the -- over the 15 media. 16 Terry Morris has been one of the 17 most active people in our community that anyone 18 could imagine. He's been a bank director. He's 19 Vice-president of the New York State Auto 20 Dealers. He's on the Schenectady County 21 Alcoholism Council. He's a director of Hospice, 22 a director of the Chamber of Commerce, on the 23 board of directors of the Workmen's Compensation 11308 1 Board for 430 New York State auto dealers. He's 2 past president of his Rotary Club, past 3 president of the Mohawk Club. He has served in 4 political office. He's a deputy supervisor, 5 councilman, and he's received numerous awards. 6 I could go on and on and on, but let me just say 7 this. Terry Morris is a person who's always 8 there for his community. He's respected and 9 loved by everyone, not only in Saratoga County 10 where he comes from, but the entire Capital 11 District. 12 I know that he's a very, very 13 dear friend of our Majority Leader's also and 14 he's going to be rising to support this 15 nomination, I'm confident, but let me say I'm 16 pleased to move the nomination of Terry Morris 17 to the State Insurance Fund. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Gold on the nomination. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 21 President. 22 Having listened to Senator 23 Farley, I guess I'm getting in the middle of a 11309 1 sandwich and I'll take the pressure from my 2 Majority Leader in a minute. 3 I voted affirmatively a few 4 moments ago on Mr. Demboski who, for quite a 5 number of years, was the chairman of the Warren 6 County Republican Committee. It doesn't bother 7 me at all. I'm delighted that people are 8 involved in politics and I'm delighted to vote 9 to confirm people who are qualified to serve in 10 public offices as opposed to party office. 11 Senator Farley gave you a pretty 12 good resume of Mr. Morris, and I want to confirm 13 some things that Senator Farley said. I'm sure 14 he's a good man and I'm sure he's a nice man and 15 he's a man who, from his involvements in various 16 things, is obviously a very worthy man, but I 17 haven't heard one thing which qualifies him for 18 the job that he's being appointed to, and that's 19 the part that I think we all should be very 20 concerned about. 21 If the Constitution did not 22 require us to advise and to consent and to look 23 into nominations, that's fine. We elect a 11310 1 Governor and if the Constitution says the 2 Governor shall then appoint, fine, but we will 3 put into the process, I believe, for some kind 4 of a purpose. 5 Mr. Morris, among other things, 6 as Senator Farley -- and I don't know whether 7 you mentioned this or not, but I'll throw it 8 out, from the little that I saw today, I think 9 you left out a word. He's also honest, so when 10 I said to him, you know, what's your experience 11 and have you been there and do you know any of 12 the laws and do you know the job? He doesn't, 13 and he said, in an honest way that, well, when 14 he's there for two or three meetings or 15 whatever, he'll see what it's about. He's got a 16 businessman sense and he'll dive into the pool. 17 Senator Farley, I don't have any 18 problem with people having business mentalities 19 and diving into the pool. I think the Majority 20 Leader of this house, when he ran for Majority 21 Leader, took the position that we ought to be 22 doing some things in a more businesslike way and 23 some of those things I certainly approve of. 11311 1 I mean, I don't know how many 2 days Senator Present and I sat here at an 3 opening hour waiting for people to finally get 4 into the chamber. I think you call a session, 5 you come to session, that's great. That's 6 businesslike, but your side of the aisle didn't 7 elect Senator Bruno to be the Majority Leader 8 just because he has a business background. I 9 kind of think from the little things I hear in 10 the coffee klatches, that he was a businessman 11 who also knew the Senate, had experience, knew 12 what he wanted to bring as a businessman to the 13 Senate. 14 I think the problem with this 15 nominee is not whether he's a nice man or a good 16 man or an honest man, because from the little 17 I've seen, I believe he's all of those things. 18 I just don't believe that he is qualified at 19 this point in time to be a member of the -- a 20 commissioner, excuse me, of the State Insurance 21 Fund. 22 So if you search my remarks after 23 I vote no, I can look the man in the eye because 11312 1 I have nothing bad to say about him as a man 2 and, as a matter of fact, he's probably the kind 3 of person if I lived in the area, might even 4 want to be friends with, if he wanted to be 5 friends with me. It's still America. He has a 6 choice, but my job today is not to decide 7 whether he is a nice man or a good man, whether 8 he's a good businessman. The only question I 9 have is, is he qualified? 10 It isn't even a question of 11 whether Manny Gold would have appointed him if 12 Manny Gold was the Governor because I'm not 13 that, thank God, and I know you agree with that, 14 but the point is that the Governor is entitled 15 to anybody he wants if the individual has the 16 qualifications, not even if the person - 17 doesn't have to be the hundred percent person, 18 the best person in the state, doesn't have to 19 be, but I really think that we make a farce of 20 the nomination process if we do not require any 21 qualifications, if we are going to take what the 22 Governor sends us and just say yes to 23 everything. 11313 1 Now, I don't want to get up 2 again, so I'll make my comments on that last 3 subject as to a whole bunch of other 4 nominations. 5 We are being asked to confirm 6 people today who are involved with policy in 7 some very delicate areas and we don't even meet 8 them. We don't even see them and, of course, 9 we've heard that, well, it could be inconvenient 10 for people, whatever. Are they getting any 11 money? They're not getting money. I don't 12 think that's an answer. I think it's terrific 13 that there are people who are willing to serve 14 the state of New York for no money and it's to 15 their credit, but I think that's not the issue 16 before the Senate. As long as the law provides 17 that we must confirm, let's take it seriously. 18 Now, I've heard it said that this 19 is the first term of the Governor and, yes, the 20 budget was overwhelming so we didn't get the 21 program bills in and look at the nominees, if 22 Senator Bruno had not gone back on his 23 commitment to end June 15th, and I say in all 11314 1 fairness, he went back on his commitment because 2 he felt there was a governmental purpose -- I 3 respect that, Senator Bruno -- but if we did not 4 do that, we wouldn't even have all of these 5 nominees. 6 So if the Governor is not on the 7 right time schedule -- and there's a lot of 8 parts to being Governor and I know he's 9 interested in many of these parts but other 10 governors have had to live with time schedules 11 and so will George Pataki, but we should not 12 have to be put in the position of going to 13 meetings and finding that there are new people 14 added to the committee agendas, finding out that 15 they may or may not be there, and while there is 16 a great criticism to predecessors of Senator 17 Bruno because we worked all night and bills came 18 flying out in the middle of the morning, 19 Senator, it's not the middle of the morning and 20 we have sunlight outside, but when you call the 21 Finance Committee meeting and you see nominees 22 are added for the first time, they don't appear, 23 there are really questionable qualifications, I 11315 1 don't know whether it's really that much better. 2 I still think, Senator, that the 3 result that we do is important, and I said that 4 to you as a matter of fact a week or so ago when 5 we were debating the Dollinger resolution and I 6 said to you, the result has to be as important 7 as the process, and I agree with you, Senator 8 Bruno, that an orderly process is important, but 9 an orderly process as you define it, Senator 10 Bruno, I don't think is having members go to a 11 committee meeting where they're supposed to be 12 determining qualifications without notice as to 13 who the people are, without the people appearing 14 and just fitting it in, shoving it in because we 15 had to come back here for three days. 16 So, again, with my regrets to the 17 candidate who will not have to worry because 18 he's still got enough votes in this house, I'm 19 sure, I'm going to have to vote no and I want to 20 say, Senator Bruno, that while I don't agree 21 with you philosophically in many, many areas, I 22 do agree with your concept of bringing the 23 Senate to some orderly method of doing business, 11316 1 but if you want to analyze that logically, 2 Senator Bruno, the way we're handling 3 nominations is not orderly. It's not business 4 like. If this was a private business, we would 5 never do it that way and I think we ought to 6 change that. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 8 recognizes Senator Bruno. 9 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you, Mr. 10 President. 11 I want to thank Senator Gold for 12 his comments. I know that they are well 13 intended, and I think everyone in this chamber 14 understands that, but for the record, Mr. 15 President, I would just like to refresh all of 16 our memories in that last year, last night of 17 session, early hours of the morning, almost 18 hundreds of confirmations were coming in this 19 chamber for action while we were bleary-eyed, 20 sleepy, not even in the chamber. Why? To get 21 people in place before the election, and I guess 22 that was good judgment for some people but not 23 for the majority of the people in this state. 11317 1 So we did change the ways of the 2 past and thank you for recognizing that, 3 Senator. We have changed the mistakes of the 4 past, and now I'm asking your indulgence here in 5 recognizing that the commission and this 6 Insurance Fund as it has functioned under the 7 Cuomo administration sees us with Workmen's 8 Comp' rates among the highest in the country, 9 driving jobs and businesses out of business or 10 out of this state, helping us lead the country 11 in job losses. 12 So, Mr. President, I would 13 recommend strongly that we have tried the ways 14 of the past putting experts in place who have 15 not been very expert in the way that fund has 16 worked in driving jobs out of this state. So 17 now the people spoke November 8th, so let's try 18 the Pataki way by getting common sense, 19 successful business people in place, successful 20 citizens of this state, family people who have 21 one thing, Mr. President, good judgment, common 22 sense, an ability to recognize what is right and 23 what is wrong. 11318 1 I know Mr. Terry Morris, Senator 2 Farley is right. He reluctantly gave up his 3 residence as part of my district in reapportion 4 ment. My good friend, Senator Skelos, did that 5 to me, but I forgave him a long time ago, but he 6 is the right person. He is the kind of person 7 that we need in this state now to fix some of 8 the problems that have been created by the 9 mistakes of the past. 10 So, Senator Gold, I welcome you 11 in joining us as we move forward from many of 12 the mistakes that we made in the past to the new 13 era of trying to do what's right for the great 14 majority of the people in this state. 15 Mr. President, I urge my 16 colleagues to support Mr. Morris. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, 19 Senator Gold. Why do you rise? 20 SENATOR GOLD: Would our 21 distinguished leader yield to one question? 22 SENATOR BRUNO: One question, Mr. 23 President, because I'm not anxious to prolong 11319 1 the process. All the nice things that should be 2 said are being said, but I'm happy to yield to 3 Senator Gold. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, when I 5 was in college, I had twin fraternity brothers 6 whose philosophy was that the night before an 7 exam, you never studied, you went out and drank 8 because if they studied, their mind would be 9 cluttered with information and this way they had 10 open minds and they could think better. I don't 11 know whether that's what I'm hearing from you. 12 You suggested that during the 13 Cuomo days we tried to get appointments of 14 qualified people and look what happened. 15 Therefore, we should try it the Pataki way. In 16 other words, is the Pataki way to put in 17 unqualified people who don't know the agencies 18 and maybe that's a better answer than finding 19 some qualified Republicans who might know about 20 the subject matter? 21 SENATOR BRUNO: I'm being 22 reminded that I don't think I said qualified 23 people were put in place. I was talking about 11320 1 the process and how they got there with their 2 backgrounds. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, I 4 think you said exactly that. You said that we 5 have the highest rates of insurance and this was 6 done when there was supposedly experts there and 7 now we're going to do it the Pataki way, and 8 what I want to know is does the Pataki way mean 9 we're looking for people who are unqualified but 10 have no experience and maybe they'll take a 11 fresh look at it? 12 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes -- no, 13 Senator Gold. What I'm talking about in the 14 Pataki way is to bring new insights, new 15 thinking, common sense, successful business 16 people to a process that needs redefining so 17 that the people in this state can benefit from 18 their wisdom and their knowledge and their 19 experience. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Farley. 22 SENATOR FARLEY: Senator Gold, 23 let me say that Terry Morris is eminently 11321 1 qualified for this post. One look at his resume 2 which I hope you've read could tell you that he 3 has worked in -- successfully in business, has 4 served on boards of directors, has done so many 5 things that are needed to be -- to be 6 represented on this State Insurance Fund. That 7 is a -- that board, that State Insurance Fund is 8 a board that provides insurance theoretically 9 for persons and people in businesses that are 10 not able to get insurance. Certainly, a person 11 that has been in business for the number of 12 years that he's been is eminently qualified to 13 serve on that board. 14 This is an unpaid position. It's 15 a new appointment and I'll tell you, I 16 compliment the Governor on securing and thank 17 Terry Morris for being willing to serve on this 18 -- on this board. He's an outstanding nominee 19 and I urge his appointment. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 21 any other Senator wishing to speak on the 22 nomination? 23 (There was no response.) 11322 1 Hearing none, the question is on 2 the nomination of Terence L. Morris of Burnt 3 Hills to the position of Commissioner of the 4 State Insurance Fund. All those in favor of the 5 confirmation signify by saying aye. 6 (Response of "Aye".) 7 Opposed, nay. 8 (Response of "Nay".) 9 The nominee is confirmed. We're 10 very happy to have Mr. Morris in the chamber 11 with us in the gallery up above. 12 Congratulations and good luck. 13 (Applause.) 14 The Secretary will continue to 15 read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 17 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 18 following nomination: John F. Carpenter of 19 Elmira, Commissioner of the State Insurance 20 Fund. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 question is on the nomination of John F. 23 Carpenter of Elmira to the position of 11323 1 Commissioner of the State Insurance Fund. All 2 those in favor signify by saying aye. 3 Senator Stachowski. 4 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: I don't know 5 Mr. Carpenter. I don't know very much about Mr. 6 Carpenter. However, I pointed out and 7 unfortunately it wasn't him specifically, but 8 there were three separate nominees of which in 9 looking at their background information, there 10 were questions that possibly could have been 11 answered quite simply and then there would be no 12 question that the person would be more than 13 presentable for the position to which he's 14 nominated for. 15 Mr. Carpenter has a construction 16 company and it said in his background that he 17 had some issues in front of insurance, and we 18 didn't know if it was in front of this insurance 19 fund that he will now be a member of or some 20 other insurance coverage or whatever, and the 21 problem I had was -- and granted it's an unpaid 22 position and normally it wouldn't matter, but I 23 would point out that I know that the question - 11324 1 the answer I'm going to get at some point is 2 going to be that in previous years we did 3 hundreds of these kinds of people and we never 4 worried about things like this, but I would 5 point out that the fact that we're the Minority 6 and we don't run the committee calendar, when we 7 have a question like this, we hope to get the 8 answer at the committee. When you are the 9 Majority and you have that sort of question of a 10 nominee of the Governor -- and I would point out 11 that at least during my time here, the only 12 other governors that have been here have been 13 Democrats and I'm quite sure that any questions 14 that the Majority would have had of those 15 individuals of a similar nature of the quite 16 simple questions that we had of a few nominees 17 today, particularly on this calendar that we're 18 about to take up that Mr. Morris came off of and 19 that these other gentlemen would come off of, 20 would have been answered for the Majority before 21 that name ever got on any committee calendar. 22 So I don't know yet -- I think 23 I'm going to vote no. I hate to do it to Mr. 11325 1 Carpenter, but the fact is that the problem I 2 have is that these gentlemen weren't available 3 to answer simple questions and I don't know what 4 the reason is, but that's the reason, and I know 5 that in some cases unpaid positions, that's one 6 thing, but I know on the next calendar we're 7 going to have at least two positions and there's 8 one that's a reappointment with a paid 9 position. I don't have a problem with that, but 10 there's two people that are going to come up on 11 the next Supplemental 1 Calendar that are 12 getting positions that are paid $68,300 and two 13 of those people weren't even required to come 14 down here to answer any kind of questions, and 15 it's difficult for me to vote for those kind of 16 people and not that they're not qualified. I 17 don't know that they are or they're not, and I 18 don't know if the questions that I had could 19 have easily been answered. I believe they 20 probably could have been but the fact is they 21 weren't here to answer. 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 11326 1 recognizes Senator Stafford. 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: I had an 3 opportunity to have a -- an in-depth discussion 4 with Mr. Carpenter from the county of Chemung, I 5 believe the city of Elmira. I think, Mr. 6 President, you're familiar with that area, and I 7 think you're very familiar with Mr. Carpenter. 8 He is a very successful business 9 person and many of us have said -- and it was 10 said earlier here by the previous two speakers 11 that if there's something that's needed in the 12 commissioner -- in the Insurance Fund is -- I 13 hate to interrupt those people -- it's - 14 something that we really need in the Insurance 15 Fund is common sense and good business. 16 I believe I was talking to you 17 the other day and you can shake your head either 18 way, I believe -- I think you said to me that 19 he's top of the line and I think that indicates 20 that he's a fine gentleman to be serving in this 21 unpaid position and I would point out that it is 22 unpaid. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Any other 11327 1 Senator wishing to speak on the nomination? 2 (There was no response.) 3 Hearing none, the question is on 4 the nomination of John F. Carpenter of Elmira to 5 the position of Commissioner of the State 6 Insurance Fund. All those in favor signify by 7 saying aye. 8 (Response of "Aye".) 9 Opposed, nay. 10 (There was no response.) 11 The nominee is confirmed. 12 The Secretary will continue to 13 read. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 15 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 16 following nomination: Anthony J. Casale of 17 Mohawk, member of the State Liquor Authority. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Stafford on the nomination. 20 SENATOR STAFFORD: Can we have 21 one more day on this? No, no. (Laughter.) I 22 wouldn't want to do that. 23 Assemblyman Casale has the good 11328 1 fortune to live in Senator Seward's district and 2 I know Senator Seward will be much more 3 articulate and he'll have so many good things to 4 say. 5 Now, some of you have heard me 6 get up here on the floor and say these are the 7 best nominations that the Governor has made or a 8 governor has made since I have been here. That 9 is true today, I have to point that out, with 10 all of the nominations we've considered and Tony 11 Casale, I have to share with you, I'm sure this 12 may not be an advantage to him, but out of high 13 school he started working with me, and let me 14 tell you, Tony was ready to be an Assemblyman 15 the next year. He's hands on and he's a quick 16 study, but on a serious note, there isn't anyone 17 who deals with people, works with people, 18 understands people any better than Tony. 19 It's a great appointment. 20 Government is his interest. It's great that 21 he's staying in government, and I can only 22 emphasize here today again when Tony was at the 23 State University, came to work for me in his 11329 1 Freshman year, I learned more from Tony than 2 Tony learned from me, and that was true every 3 year, but we congratulate him, his family, 4 Theresa and the whole family and we know -- we 5 know that he will continue to be a credit to his 6 family, his government and himself and with 7 that, I'm sure Senator Seward will rise in a 8 positive manner. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 10 recognizes Senator Seward on the nomination. 11 SENATOR SEWARD: Thank you, Mr. 12 President, my colleagues. 13 I too rise today to laud the 14 nomination of Assemblyman Tony Casale to be a 15 member of the State Liquor Authority and the 16 designated chairman of that authority. 17 Tony Casale, of course, is very 18 well known to every member of this body. We all 19 know Tony as a colleague of great wit, of great 20 intellect, of great integrity, a hard worker and 21 very determined when a task is at hand. 22 Tony Casale and I have known each 23 other for some 25 years. It's hard to imagine a 11330 1 couple of young guys like us, but we've known 2 each other for some 25 years and we have been 3 through a lot together. When he was first 4 elected in 1978 to the state Assembly, he was my 5 Assemblyman, and he was very pleased with the 6 reapportionment in 1992 to return the favor and 7 become Tony Casale's Senator at that time. 8 Over the years, we have worked 9 very, very closely on behalf of our mutual 10 constituents in areas, and I can say without 11 question that I have never had a more loyal, 12 able, supportive and stronger ally to work with 13 during those years. His advice and support on 14 so many matters have been absolutely invaluable. 15 I think it's a testimony to 16 Tony's quality of public service and his 17 bipartisan approach to issues that he has not 18 faced an opponent since his first election in 19 1978. He's been a very effective advocate for 20 his district working to meet the needs for the 21 people in his district. Tony Casale epitomizes 22 the very best in what it means to be a public 23 servant, and I'm very proud to call him a 11331 1 colleague, I'm proud to call him a constituent, 2 but more than those two, very, very proud to 3 call him a good friend and we know that Tony's 4 wife, Theresa, who is in the gallery today 5 shares all of the credit as well for -- that 6 accrues to Tony on this day and her strength has 7 been an inspiration to us all. 8 In joining Tony and his wife, 9 Theresa, in the gallery are their three sons, 10 Vinny, Peter and AJ, as well as Tony's mother, 11 Mrs. Amy Casale, also a constituent of mine from 12 Mohawk. 13 So, Tony, the Governor is to be 14 commended and congratulated for selecting you 15 for this new responsibility. My congratulations 16 to the Governor and to you and we wish you every 17 success. The people of this state have been 18 richly blessed with your service in the past and 19 will be even more so in the future with this new 20 assignment. 21 Congratulations, Tony. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Goodman on the nomination. 11332 1 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President, 2 I'm pleased to join my colleagues with an 3 enthusiastic, indeed a ringing endorsement of 4 this outstanding candidate. May I just say as 5 chairman of the Investigations Committee which 6 as the house knows has the obligation to oversee 7 the operations of the State Liquor Authority, 8 I'm particularly heartened by the Governor's 9 selection for this very significant and 10 sensitive post. 11 This is an agency which has been 12 much troubled in the past, has been the object 13 of an investigation by our committee which 14 revealed a great number of problems, some of 15 which have been resolved and others which have 16 not. It is for that reason that I'm 17 particularly grateful that we have Tony Casale 18 assuming this post, because he and I have had 19 extensive opportunities to discuss the agency 20 and its problems. He has evinced a very 21 significant understanding of the need for strong 22 administration. He is a man of great skill and 23 if I may comment, particularly adept and 11333 1 diplomatic people person who will be able to 2 both forcefully, and I think in a cooperative 3 fashion, to overhaul an agency much in need of 4 this. 5 As a result of the budget that we 6 adopted earlier in this session, we have a new 7 streamlined agency, and I would say its most 8 salient feature is that it has given to the 9 chairman the chief executive officer's absolute 10 responsibility for the oversight of the agency 11 and it could not be placed in better hands. 12 I salute Tony and his family, 13 wish him well in his important job and I know we 14 all look forward to working with him because 15 he's pledged to keep in close touch with the 16 Legislature so that the needs of the people will 17 be reflected in any comments we may transmit to 18 him. 19 Good luck and Godspeed to you, 20 Mr. Chairman, and we're very proud of you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 22 recognizes Senator Cook on the nomination. 23 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, 11334 1 it's a rare occasion that I have the privilege 2 of endorsing the appointment of someone who has 3 been such a good, warm and personal friend for 4 so long. Even though I haven't represented 5 Mohawk for a little while, Theresa, I remember 6 stopping at the house and the pleasant time that 7 we always had when we were working together or 8 when we were together socially, and I guess you 9 would say that while being a personal friend 10 doesn't necessarily qualify you for an office, 11 but I think that the quality of the person, 12 indeed, does make a difference, and Tony Casale 13 is somebody that everybody recognizes, everybody 14 and -- certainly in Herkimer and Otsego County 15 recognizes as someone of unquestionable 16 integrity. 17 Tony is a guy that always, 18 whenever he says something, you can go to the 19 bank with it. He means it. He follows through 20 on it. He's done that whether in an official 21 capacity or in a personal capacity, and I am 22 just so happy that, Tony, if this is what you 23 want to do, that you're getting a chance to do 11335 1 it. I'm going to tell you, we're going to miss 2 you tremendously in the Legislature, but don't 3 be a stranger. We hope to continue to see you 4 around down here and I'm just so delighted that 5 the Governor has seen fit to make this 6 outstanding nomination. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Larkin on the nomination. 9 SENATOR LARKIN: I'm proud to 10 rise and second the nomination of Tony Casale. 11 I came to the Legislature in 12 January 1979 with Tony and over all these years, 13 the one thing that always stood out in my mind 14 about Tony Casale is he extended himself to 15 everyone. Somebody needed his help on a project 16 on Long Island, western New York and Hudson 17 Valley, Tony never worried because he knew 18 Theresa would always be there when he got home. 19 He was always willing to come and help. 20 Individual members -- I remember 21 when some members in the Majority were having 22 problems on issues that they didn't really 23 understand. They went to Tony and Tony helped 11336 1 them. Years ago when they were first starting 2 to talk about letting the New York City people 3 learn about the upstate farmers, Tony 4 volunteered. I don't know if Theresa 5 remembers. He said, "We'll have the first 6 dinner at our house," but he let people have an 7 opportunity to work things out and try to let 8 them understand our problems from upstate, but 9 he's been a team player, working with us in the 10 Assembly and also working in the Senate. Late 11 Jim Donovan told me one time when you talk about 12 a dedicated public servant, you're talking about 13 Tony Casale. 14 Tony, I look forward to working 15 with you, and I want you to know that I'm as 16 proud as a member of your family because you 17 deserve it, you earn it and you're the damn best 18 qualified man for the job. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Wright on the nomination. 21 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you, Mr. 22 President. 23 I, too, have the pleasure this 11337 1 evening of rising to second the nomination of 2 Tony Casale. As Senator Gold indicated earlier, 3 I think we all take our confirmation 4 responsibilities very serious and when it came 5 time for this confirmation, I took it seriously 6 and decided that I would do some homework and 7 checking into Mr. Casale's background and, of 8 course, those of you who know us from the North 9 Country work very closely as a team, so I made a 10 point of going to my member of that team, 11 Assemblyman Bob Nortz, who happens to have had 12 the occasion to room with Assemblyman Casale for 13 the last 15 years and that is testimony alone to 14 Tony's commitment to 15 years with somebody from 15 the North Country, but in my conversations with 16 Assemblyman Nortz, I asked him to use three 17 adjectives to describe Assemblyman Casale and he 18 thought long and hard and gave me the same three 19 that he shared with the BCI, and since that's a 20 report that I won't relate to this afternoon, I 21 will share the second set that he gave us and 22 that is based on their relationship as 23 roommates, he's very prompt. He's very neat. 11338 1 He's very fastidious. 2 Those are attributes that I think 3 we can use as we are reorganizing the SLA. Tony 4 will have and be faced with that unique respon 5 sibility of serving as the chairman and the 6 chief executive officer of the SLA, and I think 7 the breadth of his background and experience 8 that he brings to that job speaks to the 9 credentials and the experience that Tony has. 10 Tony also indicated very clearly 11 in his confirmation hearing today before the 12 committees, his understanding of the job, his 13 understanding of the relationship with the 14 Legislature and the SLA, his understanding of 15 the business community and their relationship 16 with the SLA. 17 Tony not only is well 18 credentialed and well prepared, but Tony also 19 has the dedication that's essential to carry 20 through on this mission. It's been my pleasure 21 for the past three years to call Tony not only a 22 colleague but a true friend, and I'm very 23 pleased to be here to second the nomination and 11339 1 to vote for the confirmation. 2 Tony, best of lock. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Nozzolio on the nomination. 5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 6 President, my colleagues. 7 Certainly, I wish to echo those 8 good things said about the nominee, Anthony 9 Casale, who is before us now, but I rise with 10 some mixed emotion; mixed emotion first of 11 knowing that the Liquor Authority's gain will be 12 the Legislature's loss, that Tony has served 13 with great distinction as a member of the New 14 York State Assembly for, it seems like eons, and 15 it does seem like a long time ago that -- 13 16 years to be exact, Mr. President -- that Tony 17 took me under his wing when I was first elected 18 to the Assembly. One of his -- I didn't notice 19 on his resume, but I know I was his little 20 brother upon that occasion and that certainly I 21 was blessed to have the guidance and tutelage of 22 Tony Casale during my early days in the New York 23 State Assembly, and together working with Tony, 11340 1 as Senator Larkin had mentioned, those of us who 2 served in the state Assembly, served in the 3 Republican Conference, in that body knew very 4 clearly that Tony had always been a leader in 5 the conference, worked hard traveling across the 6 state to get our message through and in that 7 experience, I know will say -- will serve the 8 people of this state very well because Tony has 9 been through his various chairmanships and 10 various conference responsibilities, has been in 11 virtually every corner of the state working on 12 behalf of the conference, and I believe that 13 certainly is a great attribute. 14 I also wanted to mention 15 Assemblyman Nortz. Tony had two good teachers 16 in Ron Stafford and Bob Nortz through his tenure 17 here in the Legislature and we're certainly 18 very, very blessed to have that experience. 19 Tony Casale, his responsibilities 20 will be great, but the reason why I rise is 21 because he has meant so much to those of us in 22 the state Legislature and, Tony, it is with 23 great feelings of mixed emotion to have you 11341 1 leave the state Assembly, but it is with great 2 pride that I stand because this certainly is a 3 job that we know you're up to the task for; we 4 know you will be terrific in. 5 I also want to say something 6 about Theresa Casale. Theresa is always at 7 Tony's side. To his benefit, Theresa, your 8 friendship through the years has meant a great 9 deal to all of us and congratulations to the 10 entire Casale family for this nomination. 11 Thank you, Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Leibell on the nomination. 14 SENATOR LEIBELL: Thank you, Mr. 15 President. 16 Briefly, so many other members 17 have spoken, but I couldn't let the opportunity 18 go by without adding my comments to those who 19 have gone before. I, like my friend Mike 20 Nozzolio, came in the Assembly in the same class 21 in 1983 and I, like Michael, benefited greatly 22 from the friendship and the wisdom of Tony 23 Casale. 11342 1 I would be hard-pressed to think 2 of anybody who brings more energy, dedication or 3 integrity to the Legislature than Tony does. I 4 guess I feel like the little twinge of getting 5 older. It's sort of like they're breaking up 6 that old gang of ours when we see our friends 7 leaving the Legislature and I will certainly 8 miss Tony as a colleague and as a friend, but I 9 know he's going forward to lend his substantial 10 talents and energies to a very important 11 department of this state government. 12 So, Mr. President, I rise to 13 second, to lend support and to congratulate my 14 dear friend Tony Casale. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Farley on the nomination. 17 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. 19 Not having served in the Assembly 20 with Tony but he being one of my assemblymen 21 sharing Fulton county with me, he's already 22 starting off with a major plus when I hear that 23 Roy Goodman is supporting you in the SLA. Roy 11343 1 has been after that SLA for years. You've 2 really had a remarkable accomplishment before 3 you've even been appointed. 4 Let me just say this. Tony 5 Casale is a hard-working, gifted, capable person 6 and, you know, it's unfortunate that the 7 Legislature is losing him and -- because let me 8 say that there's been few people in that 9 Assembly that has made such a remarkable career 10 that you have over there, Tony. 11 As I have served with him, I have 12 seldom seen anybody who had been better 13 prepared, that has represented his people, was 14 always there willing to go that extra mile and 15 knowing his district, he had a district once 16 that didn't have roads that you could traverse 17 it and he still covered it and was -- and always 18 will. 19 Let me just say this, Tony. I 20 wish you well. I certainly know that you're 21 going to be missed here. You're going to be 22 missed by me and, you know, the state of New 23 York is really blessed to have people that are 11344 1 willing to give so much to serve the public. 2 Tony and I graduated from the 3 same school together, Albany State, the State 4 University. He's a member of their foundation, 5 president of -- former president of the alumni 6 association and somebody that has been respected 7 and been a leader in his university. I know 8 that I'm going to miss you in the Legislature, 9 Tony, but look forward to working with you in 10 the future. The best of luck to you and your 11 family. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Stachowski on the nomination. 14 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 15 President, I also rise to second the nomination 16 of Tony Casale. I figure it's about time once 17 somebody from our side did. 18 Tony's been a hard-working 19 assemblyman. I have got to know him over the 20 years. I have been in the gym when he's leaving 21 or when he's coming but, unfortunately, I've 22 never seen him do the whole workout, so I'm not 23 sure what he does on the other part of it, but 11345 1 he's in there a lot. He's in there a lot, and I 2 know at least he's an active member of that 3 facility. 4 I know Tony's always been a good 5 representative of his community. I know he'll 6 take that same diligence and that same openness 7 and take it to that State Liquor Authority and 8 hopefully be a lot easier for all of us to then 9 work with that authority. 10 I see also in his -- in his 11 resume and as I heard through speeches that he 12 overcame the first job that he ever had to 13 continue to move upward and do better with his 14 life. He obviously was a great Assemblyman and 15 on behalf of all the Democrats from western New 16 York, I have to say that without Tony, none of 17 us would have known about Rudy's. We wouldn't 18 have had all of the good deals on clothes on the 19 way home or coming back to Albany and we also 20 wouldn't have that break to stop and get the 21 good sandwiches and Italian meals at Jimmy's, 22 the little shop right across the street from 23 Rudy's, so for that, we thank you, Tony. We're 11346 1 glad to have been your friend and we wish you 2 luck in your new endeavor. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Solomon, on the nomination. 5 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. 7 Unlike Senator Stachowski, I did 8 see Tony Casale work out at the gym, but it 9 seemed that about a year and a half ago he must 10 have found a better endeavor, either that or he 11 started coming a little earlier or a little 12 later, but he's always been a good friend. 13 I believe he's also a SUNY 14 graduate from SUNY-Albany from which I'm a 15 graduate, and he's an individual we know that, 16 as a legislator, no matter what party, we'll be 17 able to talk to him regarding our problems and 18 maybe he'll give us some good advice and counsel 19 in resolving those problems in the future, but 20 most important, he's just an ordinary guy with 21 no pretensions about ego or anything else, who 22 attempted to work out in that gym like we all 23 did and tried to figure out whether it was worth 11347 1 it every morning to be on that bicycle or that 2 treadmill and whether the results would 3 eventually -- whether there would eventually be 4 some positive results for it, and I would like 5 to wish him the best of luck in his new endeavor 6 and hopefully he'll be very successful and he'll 7 deal with the problems that I have in my 8 particular part of my Senate District too. 9 Thank you. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Sears, on the nomination. 12 SENATOR SEARS: Thank you very 13 much, Mr. President. 14 All of the good things have been 15 said, and I don't think there's too much left. 16 Tony, let me just tell you how 17 proud I am of you as I know you must be today as 18 you look down and see so many of your former 19 colleagues in the Assembly who are now in the 20 Senate and on this great day for you, the ones 21 that are here in the back who are your present 22 colleagues and we're just proud as punch for you 23 and awful proud that you're going to take on one 11348 1 of the great jobs at the State Liquor Authority 2 as the chairman, but I do have to say a few more 3 things about Tony when he came down here and 4 first worked for Ron Stafford. I knew him when 5 he worked for Don Mitchell up in Utica. Also 6 knew him as one of my strongest supporters when 7 I was after the nomination to run for the Senate 8 the first time. Tony, we've got a private story 9 there that I'll never forget. He was very 10 instrumental in getting me that nomination, not 11 only that, but also in campaigning for me every 12 single time that I have run. 13 Now, I have to tell you one thing 14 about Tony. If any of you are fight fans in 15 here that like boxing matches, if Tony ever 16 invites you to his apartment when he's down here 17 to witness a fight that you can only get on 18 cable or by "Pay Per View" and if he tells you 19 to be there at 10:00 o'clock, don't bother going 20 because he will already have locked the door and 21 closed the place. Now, that's an inside story 22 because that happened to me one time and -- but 23 it didn't -- it certainly was by accident. I 11349 1 have to kid Tony about it, but I am really so 2 happy that I have the opportunity and even being 3 the last one here to second this nomination of a 4 great guy who's been very good to me and to you 5 and your family, Tony, the best of luck and I'm 6 happy to second your nomination. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Saland, on the nomination. 9 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 10 President. 11 As our colleague, Senator 12 Velella, has said on more than one occasion, we 13 served in the big house, served in the big house 14 with Assemblyman Casale, and I want you to know, 15 Tony, that these folks in the back, your 16 colleagues, I don't think they're here 17 necessarily to fete you. I think they're here 18 just in case you were foolish enough to change 19 your mind and decided to stay. They're here to 20 urge you to continue down your new career path. 21 Having served for some ten years 22 in the Assembly with Tony Casale, I can tell you 23 that Tony was not merely a valued colleague, a 11350 1 man who, during my years of service was in 2 leadership in the Assembly, a man who was highly 3 regarded by each and every one of his 4 colleagues. 5 In speaking a bit earlier with 6 Chris Ortloff, he assured me it wasn't, Tony, 7 your bipartisan nature and your ability to win 8 friends on both sides of the aisle that assured 9 you no opponents. What he said -- I'm only 10 referring to Chris now, Tony -- he said -- I 11 thought it had something to do with the size of 12 the district, recalling that it went from Canada 13 down to Pennsylvania. He said the district was 14 so large they couldn't find anybody else to run 15 and they were glad to have you, Tony. 16 Very seriously, you were truly an 17 example, a fellow who -- and a colleague who 18 certainly was there for each and every one of us 19 on whatever the occasion was. I would like to 20 join all of my colleagues who have spoken in 21 commending you for the appointment. The 22 Governor could not have done better. Wish you 23 well and assure you that to the extent that we 11351 1 still have the ability to provide assistance to 2 you in your new capacity, we would like to think 3 that you could call on us the way we have always 4 called on you. 5 Good luck, God bless. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Hoffmann on the nomination. 8 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I was all set 9 to support Tony Casale for this nomination and 10 then I found out that he's a protege of Senator 11 Sears and did all of his early learning under 12 Senator Sears' tutelage and Senator Stafford's 13 tutelage and I'm beginning to worry now if we've 14 made the right choice here, if the Governor has 15 found somebody who, in fact, knows the state the 16 way I thought Tony Casale knew it, because I 17 know that Tony puts more miles on than virtually 18 any other member of the Legislature with a 19 district that size. He was, I think, one of the 20 first Assembly members outside of leadership who 21 had to have a car in order to get around and 22 wore out a couple of them along the way. 23 It's clearly an indication of 11352 1 great respect to Assembly member Casale, soon to 2 be Commissioner Casale, that so many members of 3 his colleagues in the Assembly have come here to 4 see him today, and I don't think there's really 5 any question in our minds that they're here out 6 of respect for you, Tony. I don't think it's 7 just to be absolutely certain that you'll leave 8 the Assembly. I think that there is a matter of 9 singular pride when one of our colleagues moves 10 on to assume this type of responsibility. 11 I do have my suspicions that, if 12 there was a Senate seat open right now, that you 13 might have an interest in joining us here in the 14 little house as it's been stated, but until such 15 time, I'm sure that your talents are going to be 16 very well received and greatly needed by the 17 State Liquor Authority, and I too want to 18 compliment you and I'm happy to rise to second 19 the nomination. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 21 any other member wishing to speak on the 22 nomination? 23 (There was no response.) 11353 1 Hearing none, the question is on 2 the nomination of Anthony J. Casale of Mohawk, 3 New York, to become a member and acting chairman 4 of the State Liquor Authority. All those in 5 favor of the nomination signify by saying aye. 6 (Response of "Aye".) 7 Opposed, nay. 8 (There was no response.) 9 The nominee is unanimously 10 confirmed. 11 Tony Casale, congratulations to 12 you, your family. We appreciate your coming and 13 joining with us. 14 (Applause.) 15 The Secretary will read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 17 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 18 following nomination: Lawrence J. Gedda of 19 Lynbrook, Member of the State Liquor Authority. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Skelos. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: I'll be very 11354 1 quick. Tony Casale is going to be an excellent 2 chairman and I know that Larry Gedda who has 3 served on the State Liquor Authority with great 4 distinction will be a great partner for him. So 5 I'm delighted to move the nomination of Lawrence 6 J. Gedda, reappointment as a member of the State 7 Liquor Authority. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 9 any other member wishing to speak on the 10 nomination? 11 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Goodman. 14 SENATOR GOODMAN: During its most 15 troubled period when we were looking at the 16 State Liquor Authority, Larry Gedda was 17 literally a lighthouse of good management and 18 common sense and I'm delighted that he's seen 19 fit to continue in his service in this agency. 20 He'll be an invaluable right-hand man to 21 Chairman Casale, and I know of his ability and 22 I'm confident that he will continue to make a 23 significant contribution. 11355 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Any other 2 member wishing to speak on the nomination? 3 (There was no response.) 4 Hearing none, the question is on 5 the nomination of Lawrence J. Gedda of Lynbrook 6 to the position of member of the State Liquor 7 Authority. All those in favor signify by saying 8 aye. 9 (Response of "Aye".) 10 Opposed, nay. 11 (There was no response.) 12 The nominee is confirmed. 13 The Secretary will read. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 15 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 16 following nomination: Edward F. Kelly of 17 Holmes, member of the State Liquor Authority. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 19 question is on the nomination of Edward F. - 20 excuse me. 21 Senator Stachowski. 22 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Just very 23 briefly. I would just like to point out again 11356 1 that -- and I mentioned this earlier, that in 2 the case of Mr. Kelly, he's getting a new 3 appointment to a position paying $68,330 with 4 the State Liquor Authority and though his resume 5 looks fine, we have no idea if he has any idea 6 what the job entails, if he has any experience 7 with the position or if there were any other 8 questions that members from our side of the 9 aisle might have had for Mr. Kelly in the 10 committee because he wasn't here. So I'm not 11 blaming Mr. Kelly. Quite possibly, it could 12 have been some kind of lack of being informed 13 that he was coming up today or whatever, but the 14 fact is that he wasn't here and we're sorry that 15 he wasn't. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Stavisky on the nomination. 18 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 19 I rise for the same purpose. As a member of a 20 committee that has reported this nomination, I 21 commented on the fact that this is a new 22 appointment which runs until the year 2000. Of 23 all of the recommendations or appointments for 11357 1 confirmation today, this is the one with the 2 longest tenure and I'm at a loss to understand 3 why someone whose credentials may be fine for 4 other activities but has apparently no 5 experience in the field to which he has been 6 appointed apart from operating and owning a 7 family grocery store -- and I certainly do not 8 wish to denigrate that; that is a fine noble 9 activity, but that's the only thing that is even 10 slightly related to the responsibilities of the 11 office. 12 It is a mistake for this body in 13 exercising its powers to confirm gubernatorial 14 nominations, to consider any individual who is 15 so important or so ill concerned -- what's a 16 responsibility of this chamber? -- that that 17 individual on the very first day of considered 18 appointment and confirmation would fail to 19 appear before a committee of the Senate of the 20 state of New York. 21 I think it's insulting to this 22 body. I think it is a practice that should be 23 stopped dead in its tracks. If they don't have 11358 1 the time or the ability to show up when they are 2 about to be considered for an appointment of 3 five years, then for God's sakes, what assurance 4 do we have that they will appear when the 5 committee meetings are under way when the State 6 Liquor Authority is in operation? We need 7 assurances that they understand the issues, that 8 they are equipped to handle the problems and 9 that they're willing to give a commitment of 10 sufficient time and attention to their official 11 duties. I have not seen that in this case. 12 I do not wish to prejudge Mr. 13 Kelly's suitability for the office. I simply 14 question his attitude, and I surely question the 15 procedure that has brought him here without any 16 appearance before any committee of the New York 17 State Senate, not the Committee on Investiga 18 tions, Taxation and Government Operations headed 19 by Senator Goodman, and not before the Finance 20 Committee headed by Senator Stafford. 21 This is a disservice and a 22 discourteous treatment of every Senator who is 23 being asked to vote today, and I object to this 11359 1 procedure and hope that it will not be 2 replicated in the future. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Leibell on the nomination. 5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. 7 With respect to assurances, I 8 would like to give you some. Mr. Kelly is 9 someone that I have had the good fortune to know 10 for probably in excess of 15 years. He is, in 11 addition to that, a constituent and, in fact, my 12 office received a phone call from Ed Kelly only 13 recently within the last, I believe half hour, 14 indicating that it was his impression that they 15 were going to be considering him tomorrow but he 16 certainly would have had no objection to being 17 here. 18 That being the case, let me 19 continue with my assurances in my personal 20 knowledge of Ed Kelly. Ed is someone who's had 21 an extensive career in the private sector, 22 serving for a long, long time with IBM, which is 23 a -- certainly a prominent corporation in New 11360 1 York State, and particularly in the Mid-Hudson 2 region. He's also been a small businessman. 3 He's also had extensive government experience 4 serving in various local town positions in the 5 town of Pawling in Dutchess County and most 6 significantly, he's also been very involved 7 civically in our area, in our community and our 8 county. 9 He's raised a family, five sons, 10 one of whom I'm pleased to say serves as my 11 counsel, in addition to which he has been 12 married for in excess of 42 years and has nine 13 grandchildren. 14 That's his business background, 15 his government background, civic background, 16 personal background and I can personally assure 17 you he's a man of the greatest integrity and 18 will do this state well by his service. 19 I'm pleased to second the 20 nomination, Mr. President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Saland, on the nomination. 23 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 11361 1 President. 2 I rise to second this nomination 3 as well. Like Senator Leibell, I have known Ed 4 Kelly for a good number of years, and Senator 5 Leibell shared with me a bit earlier the fact 6 that for reasons of no more than what was 7 clearly inadvertence on whose part at this point 8 we can't determine, Mr. Kelly was under the 9 impression that he was to appear tomorrow, 10 intending no slight to either this body or any 11 member of this body. 12 I have known Ed, as I said, for a 13 number of years, probably at least ten years. 14 He certainly, as in every endeavor that he has 15 been involved in, whether it's involvements with 16 community service, whether it's involved -- his 17 involvement with local government or whether 18 it's the number of years he has spent both on 19 behalf of IBM, a major corporation, and his own 20 family enterprise, he has been keenly connected 21 to his community and to the business world. 22 I would think, given his history 23 of commitment, given his personal qualities, his 11362 1 integrity, the conscientious approach which he 2 takes to each and every issue that he -- that he 3 gets involved in, the degree of intellect that 4 he possesses that has distinguished him in his 5 other endeavors, that he would be an excellent 6 appointment, and I commend the Governor for 7 sending this nomination to us and it's my 8 pleasure again to second his nomination. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Goodman, on the nomination. 11 SENATOR GOODMAN: May I say that 12 I have received some information which I think 13 will put to rest some of the concerns properly 14 expressed on the other side of the aisle, 15 namely, that Mr. Kelly has indicated that he 16 will come to Albany tomorrow. He very much 17 regrets that he was not adequately notified of 18 his presence being required today. He is due to 19 arrive here at 11:00 a.m. and I will be pleased 20 to have any member of the Committee on 21 Investigations join me in a meeting off the 22 floor so that we'll have an opportunity to see 23 Mr. Kelly and to verify what I'm sure will be 11363 1 very appropriate recommendations made by his 2 colleagues who know him well. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Stavisky, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR STAVISKY: Will Senator 6 Goodman yield for a question? 7 SENATOR GOODMAN: Yes, I will. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Senator yields. 10 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator 11 Goodman, will you, therefore, request that we 12 lay over this confirmation until tomorrow? 13 SENATOR GOODMAN: No, Senator. I 14 feel the committee has acted and the house has 15 acted, and it would be inappropriate to make 16 that request, but I'm sure that you will 17 graciously understand that Mr. Kelly was most 18 anxious to be cooperative and should we reach 19 some conclusion that requires us to take further 20 action, we can certainly do that, but at this 21 moment, I think it would be inappropriate to 22 make such a request. 23 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator 11364 1 Goodman, if it were -- with your permission, Mr. 2 President - 3 SENATOR GOODMAN: I hope you'll 4 understand, Mr. -- Senator, that this is being 5 done as a matter of accommodation to not only 6 your wishes but those of the chairman of the 7 committee and that we should welcome this token 8 of cooperation in a gracious manner and not 9 create any undue parliamentary complications. 10 You could, I'm sure, raise many other questions, 11 but I appeal to you as a colleague and friend 12 not to do so at this moment. 13 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator 14 Goodman, I do not question his willingness to 15 serve. I do not question his integrity, but I 16 believe that we have here without full 17 consideration a nominee whom we have not met 18 except for the individuals who have spoken 19 positively in his behalf, and I think it's a sad 20 reflection on our committee that we will not 21 consider laying over this for one day, and 22 that's what I'm asking you to do. 23 SENATOR GOODMAN: That is not 11365 1 within my power to do, as I think you 2 understand. The house has acted, but I did 3 receive this information and I really forward it 4 to you with the best of intent and I recognize 5 that in mentioning this on the floor it could 6 give rise to the very suggestion you've made, 7 but I appeal to you, please, not to embarrass me 8 as chairman in my effort to make him fully 9 available to you for your opportunity to meet 10 him so that we are not going to create a further 11 embarrassment to the nominee who is a completely 12 innocent bystander in this matter. 13 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator 14 Goodman, did your office reach out to the 15 nominee to inform him that the committee was 16 meeting today? 17 SENATOR GOODMAN: My office was 18 only informed that we would have the papers as 19 of this afternoon shortly before we met, 20 Senator, so I was not in a position to do that. 21 SENATOR STAVISKY: So are you 22 saying that the omission was on the part of your 23 office rather than the nominee? I will accept 11366 1 that if that's what you are saying. 2 SENATOR GOODMAN: Senator, I 3 would gladly say that if I could assume full 4 blame for it, but as I have indicated, we were 5 not advised that the papers had been sent up 6 from the second floor until shortly before our 7 meeting and since this is the second to the last 8 day of the session, we are endeavoring to 9 cooperate with the second floor so that there 10 could be a full complement on the commission. 11 I'm sure you realize the hazards that would 12 exist if there were not a full complement of 13 commissioners and we were attempting to satisfy 14 that need. 15 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Stavisky. 18 SENATOR STAVISKY: Would it be in 19 order -- I'm not saying I'm asking this to be 20 done. Would it be in order to table this 21 nomination? 22 SENATOR GOODMAN: Senator, I 23 would not yield to any further questions. I 11367 1 have tried my best to respond to you as 2 cooperatively as I can. 3 SENATOR STAVISKY: I'm asking the 4 Chair. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: What was 6 your question again, Senator Stavisky? 7 SENATOR STAVISKY: Would it be in 8 order to request a motion to table this 9 nomination for today? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You can 11 request the motion to table. 12 SENATOR STAVISKY: I understand. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 14 Certainly, the sponsor of the bill, certainly - 15 of the nomination would be Senator Stafford who 16 is the -- I believe the chairman of the Finance 17 Committee, that the bill was last reported out. 18 You can make a motion at any time. A motion is 19 non-debatable, as you know. 20 SENATOR STAVISKY: I know that. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: But if 22 somebody else -- I mean, you can make that 23 request but it doesn't appear to me that anybody 11368 1 is taking you up on the request. 2 Senator Skelos, you want to be 3 heard on that? 4 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 6 Stavisky, are you making the motion? 7 SENATOR STAVISKY: No, I'm not. 8 In order to avoid any negative feedback with 9 regard to this institution, I indicate that it 10 is appropriate within the rules of this house to 11 move to table a motion. I will not do so. I 12 wish simply now to be recorded as not voting for 13 the confirmation and will not move to table the 14 nomination which perhaps should be done if this 15 process is repeated in the future. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 question is on the nomination of Edward F. Kelly 18 of Holmes to the position of member of the State 19 Liquor Authority. All those in favor of the 20 nomination signify by saying aye. 21 (Response of "Aye".) 22 Opposed, nay. 23 (There was no response.) 11369 1 The record will reflect that 2 Senator Stavisky abstained from voting on the 3 nomination. 4 The Secretary will continue to 5 read the report of the Finance Committee. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 7 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 8 following nomination: Joan A. Cusack of 9 Brooklyn, Member of the Crime Victims Board. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Stachowski. 12 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 13 President, I will be very brief. Earlier I 14 pointed out again that, as with Mr. Kelly, Joan 15 Cusack also was unavailable for questioning at 16 the committee meeting. It's rather difficult to 17 tell, even though she has an extensive 18 background piece here, some of which I won't 19 mention, if there were questions about her 20 ability to serve on this board, what kind of 21 background she brings to it, her understanding 22 of the Crime Victims Board and its duties, the 23 members on our side of the aisle were unable to 11370 1 ask those questions. 2 It's understandable with 3 reappointments because you're aware that the 4 person is familiar with it. It's -- with 5 unpaids, in many instances, it's not a problem 6 but when certain questions do arise, we would 7 hope that in the future that people particularly 8 that are going to get paid positions would be 9 available for any kind of questions that might 10 come up by members of the Senate. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 12 any other member wishing to speak on the 13 nomination? 14 (There was no response.) 15 If not, the question is on the 16 nomination of Joan A. Cusack of Brooklyn, New 17 York, to become a member of the Crime Victims 18 Board. All those in favor of the nomination 19 signify by saying aye. 20 (Response of "Aye".) 21 Opposed, nay. 22 (There was no response.) 23 The nominee is confirmed. 11371 1 The Secretary will continue to 2 read. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 4 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 5 following nominations: John P. Cahill, Esq. of 6 Yonkers, James P. Ciliberti of Yonkers, Joseph 7 F. Sayegh, Ph.D. of Yonkers, Members of the New 8 York State Emergency Financial Control Board for 9 the city of Yonkers. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 11 any member wishing to speak on the nomination? 12 Senator Stachowski. 13 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 14 President, in particular, on one of these three 15 individuals, Mr. Cahill, we had some questions 16 concerning the fact that he's a partner in a law 17 firm that says it represents public and private 18 clients on a variety of municipal issues, 19 including municipal financing. 20 The problem we have is that this 21 is an unpaid position. We don't question that 22 the man is of integrity and good character, but 23 we don't want to see a person put themselves in 11372 1 the position of a conflict of interest, and 2 since the gentleman wasn't here to answer any 3 questions, we have a problem with the fact that 4 he could be putting himself in a position of 5 conflict of interest. It's much different once 6 you're in public positions rather than private 7 positions, and we don't want to see anybody do 8 that to themselves, and we wish that Mr. Cahill 9 or however he pronounces it -- I have to say 10 Cahill because that's how my friends that spell 11 it that way pronounce it. If he would have been 12 here to answer these questions, they might have 13 very easily been cleared up, but it does present 14 some difficult problems for some members on our 15 side. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 question is on the nominations of John P. 18 Cahill, James P. Ciliberti and Joseph Sayegh to 19 become Members of the New York State Emergency 20 Financial Control Board for the city of 21 Yonkers. All those in favor of the nomination 22 signify by saying aye. 23 (Response of "Aye".) 11373 1 Opposed, nay. 2 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: No. 3 The nominees are confirmed. 4 Senator Dollinger. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just for a 6 point of order, Mr. President. Is it possible 7 to vote against one of those nominees? I think 8 the point Senator Stachowski raises with respect 9 to Mr. Cahill concerned me as well. I would 10 like to be recorded in the negative on Mr. 11 Cahill and affirmative on the rest. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 record will reflect that Senator Dollinger, 14 Senator Stavisky - 15 SENATOR STAVISKY: Not voting. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: -- Senator 17 Stachowski -- excuse me. The record will 18 reflect that Senator Dollinger and Senator 19 Stachowski voted no on the nomination on John P. 20 Cahill alone. Senator Stavisky is excused from 21 voting on the nominations. 22 The Secretary will read. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 11374 1 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 2 following nominations: Charles E. Dorkey III of 3 New York City, Anthony Gioia of Buffalo, James 4 Simpson of Staten Island, members of the New 5 York Job Development Authority. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 question is on the nominations of Charles 8 Dorkey, Anthony Gioia, James Simpson to become 9 members of the New York Job Development 10 Authority. All those in favor of the 11 nominations signify by saying aye. 12 (Response of "Aye".) 13 Opposed, nay. 14 (There was no response.) 15 The nominees are confirmed. 16 Secretary will read. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 18 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 19 following nomination: Edward V. Regan of New 20 York City, Director of the Municipal Assistance 21 Corporation for the city of New York. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 question is on the nomination of Edward V. Regan 11375 1 to become Director of the Municipal Assistance 2 Corporation for the city of New York. All those 3 in favor signify by saying aye. 4 (Response of "Aye".) 5 Opposed, nay. 6 (There was no response.) 7 The nominee is confirmed. 8 The Secretary will read. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 10 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 11 following nominations: Leslie Chen, Esq. of New 12 York City, Thomas H. O'Neill, Jr. of Hamburg, 13 public member of the State Banking Board. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 question is on the nomination of Leslie - 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 17 on the nomination of Mr. O'Neill. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Leichter, on the nomination. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Unfortunately, 21 this was another instance where the committees 22 that have jurisdiction over this nomination, 23 neither the Banking Committee nor the Finance 11376 1 Committee had an opportunity to interview the 2 nominee, and I know that Senator Farley has 3 always been very conscientious about seeing that 4 the committee does review personally the 5 background of the nominees and have an 6 opportunity to question the nominee. 7 This is an important position. 8 It's a position that we ought to be sure that 9 the nominee who's being appointed as a public 10 member of the Banking Board, has the requisite 11 background, outlook, experience and it's also 12 important that these nominees know that there is 13 a Legislature, that there is a Senate, that 14 there are committees, that we have concerns, so 15 I very much regret that we did not have an 16 opportunity to see Mr. O'Neill. 17 I have heard some good things 18 about him and, I'm sorry, I see Senator Rath is 19 up and I should have first given her the 20 opportunity to make the nomination. I 21 apologize, but I did want to express these 22 concerns that I have, and I would hope very much 23 voicing the sentiments that were expressed by 11377 1 Senator Stavisky that we don't rush through 2 these nominations in the future as we have these 3 past couple of days. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 5 recognizes Senator Rath, on the nomination. 6 SENATOR RATH: Yes, Mr. 7 President. 8 I stand to support the nomination 9 of Thomas O'Neill. I have known Tom for several 10 years and I've listened with a good deal of 11 interest and in many cases today, a good deal of 12 agreement when I saw that various ones had not 13 come in for various of their nominations, and I 14 happen to agree on -- I said the same to Senator 15 Stavisky earlier in the Finance Committee 16 meeting, but as I looked through and I saw Tom 17 O'Neill's resume, I thought now here's a man who 18 has not had to circulate his resume, and what 19 happened to me earlier this year with another 20 nomination, I looked at the person's resume. I 21 was speaking about him and across the floor 22 Senator Stachowski and Senator Velella and 23 several others said to me, "She's talking about 11378 1 someone entirely different than the resume 2 that's in front of you", and what happens 3 sometimes is very busy people who are moving 4 along very quickly and don't have a lot of 5 reasons to circulate their resumes don't have 6 much of a resume and thankfully someone knows 7 something about them, and I did that other time 8 and I do now. 9 I can speak of Tom O'Neill and 10 his dedication to the community in western New 11 York, to his long service on community boards 12 and activities and to his high regard that he's 13 held in by the business community in western New 14 York. 15 Through the few things that are 16 there on his resume, I don't think you have any 17 doubt that this is an active, successful 18 businessman who will be serving in this position 19 that he's nominated for on the State Banking 20 Board. 21 There would be no hesitation in 22 my mind to say that, if there was someone that I 23 wanted to depend on to look to them for their 11379 1 experience and their knowledge as to how to get 2 things done and through a very complicated and 3 very demanding kind of a board to work on, Tom 4 O'Neill would be just the kind of person that 5 will be one of my first choices and, as I said, 6 unfortunately, this man has never had to 7 circulate his resume anywhere. He's always been 8 very gainfully employed, so consequently he's 9 not here, but hopefully he will be here, and I 10 will make a point, Senator Leichter and Senator 11 Stavisky, to make sure that you meet Tom and 12 have a chance to talk with him firsthand. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Farley, on the nomination. 15 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes. It's with 16 enthusiasm that I support the nomination of Tom 17 O'Neill. 18 Let me say this, Senator Leichter 19 -- and I share your concern. It was physically 20 impossible for him to be here this week. He's 21 not a reappointment, but he has gone through 22 this process before. He was appointed by 23 Governor Cuomo with the oil and gas board and 11380 1 has been investigated prior to this and approved 2 by this Legislature. He's an outstanding person 3 that comes with a terrific reputation, and I 4 pledge to you that I will bring him before the 5 committee so that every member of the Banking 6 Committee will personally meet him, and I think 7 they will be pleased. 8 I have checked on him with other 9 members from the Buffalo area. Even Senator 10 Stachowski says he's confident that he knows him 11 and I -- I'm sure that you will be very pleased 12 with this appointment. It's something that we 13 do need to have this board in place and I urge 14 his approval and I think he will be an 15 outstanding member of the Banking Board. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Volker on the nomination. 18 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 19 very quickly, I want to clean up something 20 here. I think it wasn't Senator Stachowski that 21 knew him, it was me. It was Senator Volker. 22 He's a constituent of mine, although he's a 23 former constituent of Senator Stachowski. 11381 1 Let me just say that I also know 2 Tom O'Neill, and I think probably outside of 3 bankers themselves, he probably knows more about 4 banking than just about anyone because he's a 5 major oil dealer, and so forth, in the area, and 6 I can assure you that he's had a lot of 7 experience in dealing with banks. So I think as 8 a public member -- and, of course, as you 9 realize, a public member as I understand it is 10 not supposed to be a banker, is not supposed to 11 be somebody connected directly with the banking 12 industry. I think he certainly would fit the - 13 would fit the bill for being a public member and 14 I'm sure that the reason Tom wasn't here as 15 we've talked about before, that given the nature 16 of these things that he wasn't able to be here, 17 but I can vouch for Tom also, and I think he'll 18 make an excellent public member on the Banking 19 Board. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 question is on the nomination of Leslie Chen of 22 New York City and Thomas H. O'Neill, Jr. of 23 Hamburg to the positions of public members of 11382 1 the State Banking Board. All those in favor of 2 the nominations signify by saying aye. 3 (Response of "Aye".) 4 Opposed, nay. 5 (There was no response.) 6 The nominees are confirmed. 7 The Secretary will read. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 9 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 10 following nominations: Margaret Marino-Castaldo 11 of Lindenhurst, Gerard H. Toner of West Babylon, 12 members of the Republic Airport Commission. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 14 any member wishing to speak on the nominations? 15 (There was no response.) 16 Hearing none, the question is on 17 the nomination of Margaret Marino-Castaldo and 18 Gerard H. Toner to the positions of members of 19 the Republican -- Republic Airport Commission. 20 I tried. (Laughter.) All those in favor of the 21 nominations signify by saying aye. 22 (Response of "Aye".) 23 Opposed, nay. 11383 1 (There was no response.) 2 The nominees are confirmed. 3 The Secretary will read. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 5 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 6 following nomination: Barry Bruce Perlman, M.D. 7 of New York City, member of the Mental Health 8 Services Council. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 question is on the nomination of Barry Bruce 11 Perlman to the position of member of the Mental 12 Health Services Council. All those in favor of 13 the nomination signify by saying aye. 14 (Response of "Aye".) 15 Opposed, nay. 16 (There was no response.) 17 The nominee is confirmed. 18 The Secretary will read. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 20 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 21 following nomination: Edward F. Cox of New York 22 City, member of the State Park, Recreation and 23 Historic Preservation Commission for the city of 11384 1 New York. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 question is on the nomination of Edward F. Cox 4 of New York City to become a member of the State 5 Park, Recreation and Historic Preservation 6 Commission for the city of New York. All those 7 in favor of the nomination signify by saying 8 aye. 9 (Response of "Aye".) 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Dollinger, why do you rise? 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one 15 question, perhaps. Didn't we appoint Mr. Cox to 16 something yesterday, SUNY? So he's going to 17 wear multiple hats. 18 Mr. President, I won't vote 19 against it, but it seems to me there are lots of 20 good people out there that could fill these jobs 21 and we're reappointing someone to another 22 position. 23 I'll vote in favor, Mr. 11385 1 President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 question is on the nomination of Edward F. Cox 4 to become a member of the State Park, Recreation 5 and Historic Preservation Commission for the 6 city of New York. All those in favor of the 7 nomination signify by saying aye. 8 (Response of "Aye".) 9 Opposed, nay. 10 (There was no response.) 11 The nominee is confirmed. 12 Senator Skelos. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 14 with the consent of the Minority, would you call 15 up Calendar Number 665, Senate Bill Number 16 4384-A. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 Secretary will read Calendar Number 665, the 19 title thereof which is on the first calendar of 20 the day, Calendar Number 68. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 665, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 4384-A, an 23 act relating to the apportionment of building 11386 1 aid and reorganization incentive building aid. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Skelos. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there a 5 message at the desk? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 7 a message of necessity at the desk. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: I move we 9 accept. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 motion is to accept the message of necessity on 12 Calendar Number 665 at the desk. All those in 13 favor signify by saying aye. 14 (Response of "Aye".) 15 Opposed, nay. 16 (There was no response.) 17 The message is accepted. 18 The Secretary will read the last 19 section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 23 roll. 11387 1 (The Secretary called the roll.) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 4 is passed. 5 Senator Skelos. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there any 7 housekeeping at the desk? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 9 is. 10 The Chair recognizes Senator 11 Farley for some housekeeping. 12 SENATOR FARLEY: I feel like the 13 housekeeper here. I wish to call up Senator 14 Skelos' bill, 5525, which is now at the desk. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Secretary will read the title. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 1540, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 5525, an 19 act to amend Chapter 704 of the Laws of 1991. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Farley. 22 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President, I 23 now move to reconsider the vote by which this 11388 1 bill was passed, and I ask that the bill be 2 restored to the order of third reading. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Secretary will call the roll on 5 reconsideration. 6 (The Secretary called the roll on 7 reconsideration.) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 10 is restored to third reading. 11 Senator Farley. 12 SENATOR FARLEY: I now move to 13 discharge from the Committee on Rules, Assembly 14 Print 3604-A and substitute it for Senator 15 Skelos' identical bill. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 substitution is ordered. 18 SENATOR FARLEY: The first bill 19 was voted on unanimously. I now move that the 20 substituted Assembly bill have its third reading 21 at this time. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 Secretary will read the last section. 11389 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 8 is passed. 9 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of 10 Senator Goodman, Mr. President, I wish to call 11 up his bill, Senate Print 5222, recalled from 12 the Assembly which is now at the desk. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Secretary will read the title. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 1407, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5222, an 17 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to an 18 amendment of a lease by a cooperative housing 19 corporation. 20 SENATOR FARLEY: I now move to 21 reconsider the vote by which this bill passed. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 Secretary will call the roll on 11390 1 reconsideration. 2 (The Secretary called the roll on 3 reconsideration.) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Farley. 7 SENATOR FARLEY: I now offer the 8 following amendments. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 amendments are received and adopted. 11 Senator Farley. 12 SENATOR FARLEY: This is on 13 behalf of Senator Maltese. I wish to call up 14 Calendar 833, AR 3006 -- 30006 -- I don't know 15 what that means, Assembly Rules -- is that - 16 Assembly Rules. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 Secretary will read the title to the bill. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 833, by Senator Maltese, Senate Bill 4524, 21 Assembly Reprint 30006, an act to amend the 22 Election Law, in relation to the names of 23 independent bodies. 11391 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Farley. 3 SENATOR FARLEY: That's Assembly 4 reprint. Okay. 5 Mr. President, I now will move to 6 reconsider the vote on the concurrence with the 7 Assembly amendments to Senate Print 4524. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Secretary will call the roll on 10 reconsideration. 11 (The Secretary called the roll on 12 reconsideration.) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 14 SENATOR FARLEY: I now move to 15 not concur in the said amendments to my Senate 16 bill 45... Senator Maltese's Senate bill 4524. 17 They are not concurred in. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 19 amendments to the Senate Bill are not concurred 20 in. 21 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President, I 22 now move to reconsider the vote by which this 23 said bill passed and ask that the bill be 11392 1 restored to the order of third reading. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Secretary will call the roll on 4 reconsideration. 5 (The Secretary called the roll on 6 reconsideration.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is restored to the Third Reading Calendar. 10 Senator Smith, why do you rise? 11 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you, Mr. 12 President. 13 On behalf of the Senate Minority 14 Leader, I would like to announce an immediate 15 conference of the Senate Minority in the Senate 16 Minority Conference Room. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 18 will be an immediate meeting of the Senate 19 Minority Conference in the Senate Minority 20 Conference Room, Room 315. Immediate meeting of 21 the Senate Minority Conference in the Minority 22 Conference Room, Room 315. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 11393 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Skelos. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Tomorrow there 4 will be a meeting of the Rules Committee at 9:30 5 a.m. in Room 332 of the Capitol. That's 6 Wednesday, June 27th, and without objection, 7 there being no -- tomorrow is Thursday. I stand 8 corrected. Thank you very much. The Rules 9 Committee meeting will be on Thursday at 9:30 10 a.m. in Room 332, and there being no further 11 business, the Senate stands adjourned until 12 Thursday at 10:00 a.m. sharp. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 14 will be an immediate meeting of the Senate Rules 15 Committee Thursday, June 29th at 9:30 in the 16 Majority Conference Room, Room 332, and without 17 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until 18 tomorrow, Thursday, June 29th, the last day of 19 session, at 10:00 a.m. 20 (Whereupon, at 7:05 p.m., the 21 Senate adjourned.) 22 23