Wednesday, January 17, 1996

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 January 17, 1996 10 3:05 p.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senate will come to order. Ask the members to 4 find their places, the staff their seats. Ask 5 you all to rise and join with me in saying the 6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. 7 (The assemblage repeated the 8 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 9 In the absence of clergy, may we 10 bow our heads in a moment of silence. 11 (A moment of silence was 12 observed.) 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Reading 14 of the Journal. 15 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 16 Tuesday, January 16th. The Senate met pursuant 17 to adjournment. The Journal of Sunday, January 18 15, was read and approved. On motion, the 19 Senate adjourned. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing 21 no objection - 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 1 recognizes Senator Paterson. Do you have an 2 objection to reading of the Journal? 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr. 4 President. We have an objection to the approval 5 of the Journal. As I stated yesterday, the 6 presentation of something that is actually 7 providing the guidance for us as legislators 8 here in the chamber, which is what will be an 9 addendum to our rules, was made yesterday some 10 time after 4:00 o'clock, and it requires a 11 24-hour notice and here we are at 10:00 o'clock 12 the next morning ready to debate it, and so the 13 Journal for yesterday, which I haven't seen, is 14 an issue that normally -- I don't know what the 15 Journal really is, but it's something that we're 16 objecting to because we just don't feel that 17 something that's that important, that does, 18 looking over it, have a lot of information in 19 it, that the Minority does not disagree with 20 every single thing that's in the new rules. 21 However, it being as important an issue as it 22 is, to at this point early in the morning - 23 which this would be a legislative Tuesday where 1 the session would usually begin at 3:00 o'clock 2 and we're beginning at 10:00 o'clock, so we've 3 moved up the session up five hours and we've 4 also undertaken the experience of redrafting all 5 of the rules of our Senate and it's something 6 that I honestly, Mr. President, have to oppose 7 in terms of the acceptance of the Journal. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 10 recognizes Senator Gold. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Good morning, Mr. 12 President. 13 Mr. President, it's unfortunate 14 that we deal so much in tag lines and we don't 15 really get down to what -- to what is behind 16 these lines. I, for one, have admired on many 17 occasions the efforts of the President of the 18 Senate to give us a businesslike environment and 19 so Senator Bruno knows very well that when 20 something is called for 10:00 o'clock, I smile 21 at him at one or two minutes to 10:00 and we're 22 here and it's a -- it's a delight to see him and 23 know that we are really starting on time rather 1 than the old system which used to take so much 2 time. I approve of that. I think that makes 3 sense. As the Senator also knows, I have a 4 great respect, as he does, for rule and for 5 order and I also have a respect for the fact 6 that government must move and we've got to 7 accomplish things. 8 One of the reasons that the 9 Governor of the state is given the right to give 10 us a message of necessity is so that we can 11 eliminate three days of waiting in emergencies 12 and I -- Senator Bruno, this isn't meant to be a 13 civics lesson, but we have a lot of time today 14 since we started earlier, so I don't feel any 15 pressure about speaking fast, but the 16 Constitution understood that there would be 17 circumstances where there had to be a rush and, 18 therefore, it gave the Governor the right to 19 issue a message of necessity, which doesn't mean 20 the bill has to pass, as you know. It only 21 means it has to be or can be brought before the 22 body in that period of time. Now, once 23 something is brought before the body, we have 1 our own rules that deal with how we handle it 2 and how we debate. 3 In going through the proposed 4 rules that were served yesterday, it was obvious 5 that there was an underlying current, Senator 6 Bruno, that was really offensive, and it was 7 offensive because the rules don't provide that 8 the Senate is going to act in a businesslike, 9 orderly and fast way. It affects what is 10 unquestionably one of the rights that makes this 11 country great, perhaps the most important right, 12 freedom of speech, and in one of the suggestions 13 in the rules, if it were to be adopted and which 14 we may get to by 4:00, 5:00 o'clock today, the 15 suggestion is made that a presiding officer can 16 determine what are the aberrations of somebody's 17 mind. 18 Now, from the point of view of 19 some of your members, Senator Bruno, I can 20 understand that debate bothers them. I can 21 understand that it is very difficult to live in 22 a country where somebody can say something 23 that's abhorrent to you, but that's what freedom 1 of speech really is. That's what it really is. 2 It means that somebody can stand up and get you 3 boiling, but whether you have power or not, they 4 don't get shot. They don't get killed. They 5 don't get taken away. You then can respond and 6 the public makes its decisions. 7 Now, as somebody on your side I'm 8 sure is going to point out at some point along 9 the line today, the public has spoken in the 10 last election and more of your types are elected 11 than our types, and as a result of that, you 12 have a Majority and you have committee chairs 13 and we have ranking members and that part of it, 14 there's really no objection about; we understand 15 that, but the concept that we come up here and 16 have no right to participate -- which is, 17 unfortunately, a philosophy of some of your 18 members, Senator Bruno; I'm not saying you - 19 it's just abhorrent to every American principle 20 there is. 21 I've said on a number of 22 occasions -- and I don't say it because I think 23 it sounds good. I say it because I believe it 1 -- that this place is just too political. It 2 really is just overly too political. There are 3 members that have come up here -- and it's 4 interesting as I think of the happenings of this 5 week, there are people that come up here -- and 6 if you happen to think those individuals are 7 marginals in terms of your campaign committee, 8 you might not even let them participate without 9 a fight. You don't want to -- you don't want to 10 let their bills out. You don't want to let 11 anything happen, and sometimes things happen 12 where you think it's good for you and you'll 13 decide that person is a genius and make very, 14 very strong endorsement remarks of that 15 individual even though for a period of time you 16 might have ignored him or her as they acted as 17 legislators. We understand -- we understand 18 those games, but part of the game of power is 19 understanding that you can make rules -- those 20 rules have to be fair rules -- and then we all 21 live within those rules. 22 Now, the distinguished Deputy 23 Minority Leader, Senator Paterson, has tried 1 very hard to just bring reason to this chamber, 2 just reason. If there are rules -- if you'll 3 live by the rules, then we'll live by the rules, 4 but the rules are not there merely to hamper the 5 Minority, as Senator Paterson has pointed out on 6 so many occasions very eloquently; they're there 7 to see to it that there's fairness, and those 8 rules, to some extent, are a protection to the 9 Minority. I mean, some of your members, some of 10 the distinguished ones, even some of those with 11 very low handicaps, seem to think that when a 12 bill comes to the floor and it's sponsored by 13 the Majority, "Let's just vote on it and get it 14 done. What's the difference? It's out here", 15 and you have 31 votes and why are we saying 16 anything, and the fact of the matter is that 17 these rules are our protection that things can 18 be said, and whether your side likes it or not, 19 some of the really fine oratory of Senator 20 Paterson and Senator Leichter and -- you didn't 21 bring me coffee, did you -- Senator Dollinger, 22 Oppenheimer, everybody on this side, you can 23 sneer at it, but if those remarks were made 1 maybe 50 or 70 yards down the hall, then we 2 would have the votes. 3 So the point is there was a 4 wonderful line from -- I think it was -- what 5 was it, "Smokey and the Bandit" -- where he says 6 how smart you are sometimes depends upon the 7 geography, where you're standing, and some of 8 your members who have come over from the 9 Assembly where there was a different majority, 10 come over here with something inventive -- I 11 forget that whole expression, but I certainly 12 don't want to put it in the record anyway - 13 because now they're going to do to the world 14 what they think was done to them, and the answer 15 was nothing was done to them. They were allowed 16 to debate and they were allowed to participate 17 and say things which were of importance, which 18 brings me back to the Journal which I think is 19 underrated by many of you, and I'm very happy 20 that Senator Paterson decided that we should 21 spend some time on it today. Actually, we 22 started the session at 10:00 o'clock, so I 23 figure by about 12:00 o'clock, we'll finish with 1 the Journal. 2 The Clerk starts the proceedings 3 every day by saying we're going to read the 4 Journal -- or actually the presiding officer - 5 I don't want to downgrade your position, Mr. 6 President -- suggests that he read the Journal 7 of the proceedings of the former day, and we 8 hear the Clerk say some words which is really a 9 code, we all understand that, but the Clerk 10 doesn't read the Journal. The Clerk says some 11 words; we all accept that and go from there, and 12 it's really a shame because the Journal itself, 13 if we read it, is a very interesting document. 14 Now, I have one of them here 15 beautifully bound -- beautifully bound. This is 16 from the 217th session of the New York State 17 Senate. That was last -- that was 1994, so I 18 guess we're in the 219th session -- is my math 19 right, Senator -- and these are beautifully 20 bound books, but aside from being beautifully 21 bound, if somebody wanted to know, for example, 22 in 1994 how many working versus legislative days 23 there were in January, you wouldn't hear the 1 Journal Clerk read that off, but you can get it 2 if you really saw the Journal. 3 For example, in January of 1994, 4 we worked on the 5th and the 10th and the 11th. 5 We worked on the 18th and 19th, the 24th, 25th 6 and 31st, but we also had legislative days, as 7 Senator Rath, I know remembers, on the 6th and 8 the 7th, the 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th. That 9 week was a heavy week for legislative days. The 10 20th, the 21st, the 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, 11 30th, all legislative days, and those days are 12 very important because as everybody knows, on 13 those days somebody comes in, raps a gavel, 14 raps it again and walks out. Now, I don't know 15 how the business of the state would operate 16 without those legislative days. That gavel 17 could get feelings of being ignored which we 18 wouldn't want to do, but interestingly enough in 19 January, whereas we worked eight working days, 20 in February, for some reason which I don't 21 remember, but maybe in response Senator Skelos 22 will remind me, we only worked six days that 23 month. On the other hand, we made up for it 1 because in January, we only had 14 legislative 2 days, whereas in February, we had 16 legislative 3 days. Now, what can we learn from this? I 4 don't know, but apparently February deserved two 5 more legislative days. 6 Now, in March we were getting 7 into the budget season, as we all know, so in 8 March it wasn't enough to work eight days as we 9 did in January, or six days as we did in 10 February. In March, we actually worked 15 days 11 -- I'm sorry. I didn't hear that. Oh, I would 12 be glad to read off the days, yeah. 1 -- the 13 1st, the 2nd, the 7th, the 8th, 9th, 14th, 15th, 14 16th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 29th, 30th and 15 31st, and when you consider we had 12 16 legislative days, we account for 27 days in the 17 month of March of 1994 which were either working 18 or legislative days. 19 April, apparently we didn't 20 finish the budget on time because we worked - 21 you see what you can learn from this? I know 22 some of you have all kind -- as a matter of 23 fact, in Finance yesterday, there were some 1 bills offered by Senator Bruno dealing with the 2 budget process, and some people might question 3 whether or not that's an area we should be 4 discussing. 5 Now, Senator Bruno, all you got 6 to do is take a look at this Journal -- and when 7 I'm finished with it, I will be glad to let you 8 look at it -- from 1994 to see that in April - 9 or in 1994, we apparently didn't finish the 10 budget on time because we have our legislative 11 calendars that we print and we all know how 12 really important those calendars are, and we 13 were supposed to be on vacation -- we were 14 supposed to be on vacation in the beginning of 15 April, but we worked April 5th and 6th and 7th 16 and 8th and apparently we weren't finished, so 17 we came back on the 11th and the 12th and the 18 13th and the 14th and the 18th and the 19th, the 19 20th, 25th, 26th and 27th -- we did a lot of 20 work in April, and I guess that was the year we 21 didn't get a vacation, which is okay because the 22 people's work is certainly more important than 23 whether we do, in fact, get a vacation, and I 1 guess once we got into April-- and we spent 30 2 days when you count the legislative days also - 3 that just kept us going towards May when we 4 actually worked 31 days -- let me see. 30 days, 5 September, April, June -- yeah, 31 days, that's 6 right. Every day we accounted for in either 7 work or in a legislative day, and in June we 8 worked 17 days which was the most working days 9 that we had so far in 1994. Apparently we must 10 have finished the session right before the July 11 4th weekend because I see we worked on the 1st 12 and the 2nd and the 3rd, and then we had 11 13 legislative days after that. 14 The rest of the year, all we had 15 was legislative days, which is interesting 16 because I remember when I first got involved 17 with the Legislature in 1965 -- and maybe 18 Senator Marchi is the only one who remembers 19 those days; I have to check the book -- but the 20 Legislature operated quite differently because 21 under the Constitution, if both houses finished 22 their work, they would pass a sine die 23 resolution. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 2 me, Senator Gold. May I interrupt you? 3 Senator Bruno, you had your hand 4 up. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President and 6 Senator Gold, forgive my interruption, but I 7 would ask the Chair to help us in the chamber 8 understand where we are in the order of 9 procedure in the chamber as relates to our 10 Calendar. It's my understanding that we are in 11 discussion over adoption of the Journal from 12 yesterday. Is that what this discussion relates 13 to? 14 SENATOR GOLD: That is correct. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: That's 16 correct. 17 SENATOR BRUNO: Is that correct? 18 Then, Mr. President, just so we all know where 19 we are, because I know my colleagues join me in 20 wanting to hear all the good things that Senator 21 Gold has to say and his colleagues, and welcome 22 the opportunity for people to express themselves 23 freely as is the usual procedure in this 1 chamber, but I would just like to know how much 2 pleasure we're going to have and what time 3 frame? Is there a time frame that relates to 4 this discussion? Is it two hours? Is it open 5 ended or are we here 'til midnight, because I 6 would just like to share with my colleagues that 7 I find this fascinating, interesting and 8 appreciate your observations and your comments 9 and want to be here and hear everything that 10 anyone has to say for as long, Mr. President, as 11 the procedures adopted by the Senate rules 12 allow. Can you help us understand what is the 13 time frame that this discussion will take? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I'll try 15 to, Senator Bruno. We're at the point in the 16 general proceedings that are controlled by Rule 17 5, Subdivision (2) and it talks in that 18 subdivision about the approval of the Journal of 19 the previous day, and that the purpose of the 20 discussion generally is determined to be for the 21 purpose of addressing any mistakes in that 22 Journal and talking about corrections. 23 The Chair would recognize that 1 this is, I believe, a motion properly before the 2 chamber and that the rules that provide dealing 3 with motions would limit debate to two hours, 4 that the two-hour debate started at 10:05, so 5 we're 20 minutes into the debate and that after 6 two hours of the debate, anybody can make the 7 motion to terminate the debate, which the Chair 8 would recognize, and there would be a motion to 9 either accept or reject the motion. So I think 10 that pretty well is the Chair's understanding of 11 what the parameters of the rules are dealing 12 with discussion here in the chamber today. 13 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you, Mr. 14 President and, Senator Gold and my colleagues, 15 it would appear then that the purpose of the 16 discussion is to make whatever recommendations, 17 suggestions that pertain to the acceptance of 18 the Journal as read, and if you have some 19 suggestions, corrections, I think all of your 20 colleagues are anxious to hear them and since we 21 have until five after 12:00, Mr. President, you 22 suggested - 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: That 1 would be the correct time. 2 SENATOR BRUNO: -- that's fine. 3 And I would also like to share, Mr. President 4 and Senator Gold and my colleagues, it's 5 important that we do the kinds of things that we 6 are doing and that I respect the Minority and 7 their discussion and their opinion on this 8 floor. They are part of this process, an 9 important part of the process that takes place 10 here in this chamber, and if it takes discussion 11 through today and tomorrow and Friday, I know 12 that we're all prepared to be here and do the 13 people's business, so we are open ended in our 14 time frames here, and I know that everyone 15 brings extra clothes just for these such 16 contingencies. 17 So, Mr. President, we're not in 18 any hurry because this is important, what we're 19 doing here. This is freedom of expression, 20 democracy in action, and I just share those 21 thoughts with Senator Gold because I got a 22 little concerned with his opening that there 23 might be some feeling that there's some 1 suppression taking place here and there is 2 absolutely none of that. Mr. President, it's 3 just the opposite. What we're attempting to do 4 today is further open the process for legitimate 5 differences of opinion and discussion. 6 So thank you, Senator Gold, for 7 your indulgence and thank you, Mr. President, 8 for your determination. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 10 recognizes Senator Gold. 11 Thank you for yielding to that 12 point of information. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, you 14 see why I love that guy? What a -- terrific. 15 Mr. President, just so everybody understands, 16 Senator Bruno, I personally don't have theatre 17 tickets 'til Saturday night, so I'm okay for the 18 next few days. 19 Senator, you use words -- and the 20 words are often the right words, but 21 unfortunately, there have been too many people 22 killed in this world, even though people were 23 saying the right words. Now, you say you 1 respect the Minority and you think that we 2 should be able to move along and have legitimate 3 debate, et cetera. That's the problem, 4 Senator. That's the problem right there. What 5 is legitimate; and what I think is legitimate 6 and what you think is legitimate may differ. 7 As a matter of fact, Senator, if 8 you take a look at the legislation that's been 9 introduced by Senator Abate, for example, I 10 think that this is really well thought out -- a 11 really well thought out program, and if it was 12 up to me, I would put most of those bills out on 13 the Calendar. Now, some of your members have 14 put in things which I don't want to dignify them 15 by calling them dreck, but they are ideas which 16 are very harmful, I think, and yet you put them 17 out. Now, that is legitimate, quotes-unquotes 18 "difference of opinion", but what happens then 19 is that while I may not have the 31 votes, I can 20 express my opinion, and I can tell you the basis 21 of my thought process. 22 It has always been the rule in 23 this chamber that people are allowed to think 1 and have different ways of thinking, and you 2 know you'll say to yourself, "Gee, 'X' is very 3 bright. 'X' is liberal" or "'X' is conservative. 4 I may not agree with them philosophically, but 5 they're very bright", can't understand how being 6 that bright they come to a different conclusion, 7 and all that means is that people have different 8 thought processes. 9 You know very well, Senator 10 Bruno, that what you would like to do today is 11 to cut the thought processes of the Minority. 12 What you would like to do today, which is 13 literally disgusting, is to tell people they 14 have no right to have a thought process that 15 disagrees with the President of this Senate. 16 Now, that is just so un-American. There's no 17 other way to say it. It's un-American. If 18 there's a piece of legislation on this floor, 19 Senator Bruno, and one of your members goes - 20 no, I won't be interrupted unless it's a point 21 of order. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Point of order. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 1 Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Point of order. 3 Is Senator Gold correcting the reading of 4 yesterday's Journal? 5 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Mr. 6 President, if one of the members on that side 7 comes to a conclusion that something is a good 8 piece of legislation because of a certain 9 happening, a certain event, I can understand 10 that. I might not come to that conclusion based 11 upon that event and, therefore, I would get up 12 and say that perhaps I don't agree with that 13 piece of legislation and let me tell you why, at 14 which point under the really abhorrent rules 15 that you would foist upon us, someone sitting 16 and acting as President who you appoint says, 17 "That's not germane. That -- you can't 18 possibly get to the conclusion that you're 19 reaching by -- by doing that. That's not 20 germane", and next thing I know, I'm told I 21 can't say -- freedom of speech, I can't say what 22 I want to say in opposing that legislation. 23 Now, you have enough votes to 1 sustain the Chair. Not only that which makes it 2 worse, you don't have one person with enough 3 guts to vote to overrule the Chair even when the 4 Chair is terribly wrong. That's considered bad 5 conduct on the part of a member of the 6 Majority. So if we were debating the issue of 7 whether or not our chairs should have a new 8 color or whether that new color should be green 9 or blue and I stand up and say "it should be 10 blue" and you don't want to hear that, somebody 11 objects, the President says, "That's not 12 germane." I said, "What do you mean 'germane'? 13 The question is green or blue", and the Chair 14 rules -- just 20 seconds -- the Chair rules that 15 even though I'm saying blue, it's not germane, 16 you have the power, we move to override the 17 Chair and the next thing you know, it's the 18 power of the taxes, the power to destroy. The 19 power of a president, an acting president of 20 this Senate to tell me or Senator Kruger or 21 anybody, Senator Gonzalez, what is germane is 22 the power to destroy the debate. You cannot do 23 that. You cannot do that. You can make rules 1 and you can decide the time limits, you can 2 decide other things, but you can't decide that 3 my time limit is nothing. Can't do it. Be glad 4 to meet you in federal court on that one. You 5 can't tell me that I can't express the 6 operations of my mind. 7 Now, Mr. President, I've had a 8 message which says that Senator Bruno would like 9 to make some announcements, and assuming I 10 retain the floor, I would have no objection to 11 yielding for that one limited purpose. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you - 13 thank you, Senator Gold. 14 SENATOR GOLD: You're welcome, 15 Senator Skelos. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Skelos. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: There will be an 19 immediate meeting of the Local Governments 20 Committee in Room 123 of the Capitol and there 21 will be a meeting of the Transportation 22 Committee at 11:00 a.m. in Room 124 of the 23 Capitol. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: For the 2 benefit of those who are listening, the 3 announcement was that there will be an immediate 4 meeting of the Local Governments Committee in 5 Room 123 of the Capitol and that there will be a 6 meeting of the Transportation Committee at 11:00 7 o'clock, which is 25 minutes from now, in Room 8 124 of the Capitol. 9 Thank you, Senator Skelos. 10 Senator Gold, the floor is 11 yours. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Are we back? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Waiting 14 for you, Senator Gold. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Bruno, the 16 point is that when you say -- and I think you 17 mean it -- that you respect everybody and you 18 just want legitimate debate and you just want 19 legitimate activities in this chamber, that's 20 the right words. The problem is that -- well, 21 I've give it to you by way of an analogy. 22 Democracy, as we practice it in America, is 23 very, very difficult -- very, very difficult, 1 except that it's the best form of government 2 that we have on earth, but some people have 3 suggested it's very complicated, and that what 4 you really need is a benevolent dictator, 5 because a benevolent dictator will certainly 6 always do the right things but you don't have to 7 go through the motions of a Legislature and you 8 don't need the courts, you don't need any of 9 that, and then you get to the point, "Well, who 10 should be the dictator; and if I'm the dictator, 11 well, maybe I could buy that kind of government 12 because I know I'm a good, kind person and I'll 13 take care of everyone." That's the problem with 14 your rules, Senator Bruno. You want to be the 15 benevolent dictator and, Senator, I think you're 16 a very nice fellow and I enjoy having a drink 17 with you. I love going to dinner with you, but 18 I'm not ready to make you my benevolent 19 dictator, and that's what you're asking to 20 happen here. 21 The rights of the Minority in 22 this house are pretty slim, and my congratula 23 tions to Senator Connor who has a sensitivity to 1 the members of this conference and who has tried 2 very hard to see that we have changes that make 3 it possible for everybody to be able to just do 4 their job and represent their constituencies 5 but, Senator Bruno, as nice a person as you are, 6 I mean, don't talk to me about respect unless 7 you want to take a nice little walk around this 8 place and compare computer equipment, compare 9 mailings, compare, et cetera, et cetera, et 10 cetera, you know, then you can talk about 11 respect, but with all of that, Senator, there 12 are certain things that people can endure and 13 then you get to a lie, and I've known people in 14 my life who people thought acted very courage 15 ously in a certain situation, and I said, "You 16 don't understand the situation. The person is 17 not a giant. The person wasn't courageous. As 18 a matter of fact, in many things the person was 19 cowardly." If you put a person in the corner 20 and you hold a knife there and you're going to 21 kill them, don't be surprised if that person 22 fights back and, Senator, our side has certainly 23 gone out of its way to be cooperative with you 1 in making the Senate work, but at this point you 2 have put us in a corner with a knife. You have 3 not said, "You can't use the good computer 4 equipment." You haven't said, "We won't do this 5 for you. We won't give you the mailings. We 6 won't give you the expenses. We won't give you 7 the monies to run your offices." What you've 8 said to us is "We're going to shut you up", and 9 if somebody introduces a bill and your side 10 says, "I'm the sponsor. This is a wonderful 11 bill", I can stand up and say, "It's a bad bill" 12 and then sit down, but I can't tell you the 13 operations of my mind? I can't tell you why I 14 think it's a good bill because somebody up there 15 may have a difference of opinion as to whether 16 it's germane or not? 17 Now, one of the problems I have 18 with that -- just to give you an idea, look at 19 Randy Kuhl. Now, Mr. President, Senator Kuhl 20 and I are 150 yards away from the pin and my 21 opinion is that I need an eight iron, maybe even 22 a seven iron, and he gets up with his pitching 23 wedge or a sand wedge, you know, so he may think 1 that my eight iron is not germane, but I know 2 that I need that eight iron. You can't take a 3 person and put them as a judge over what members 4 of this side believe is germane. I've heard 5 debates last year and Senator Nanula stood up 6 and spoke about economic matters in his part of 7 the state, and he may have a disagreement with 8 some of your members on your side, even one of 9 your Cornell graduates, and somebody says, "You 10 know, this is terrible. This is very embarrass 11 ing. Nanula sounds like he knows what he's 12 talking about. He's making us sound ridicul 13 ous." "Mr. President, that's not germane." 14 "It's not germane? How can you make those 15 comments", and you now want to put that in the 16 rule? 17 Senator Bruno, I didn't select as 18 my first choice people like Warren Anderson and 19 people like Earl Brydges because I had a Demo 20 crat I would rather have seen, but I would be 21 lying to this chamber and to the world if I did 22 not suggest that these people cared about the 23 legislative process and did their best as presi 1 dents pro tem of this Senate, and they survived 2 many, many legislative years and legislative 3 sessions by allowing the Minority to have a 4 voice. It is not the kind of thing which is 5 totally destructive. As a matter of fact, it's 6 the kind of thing that makes America separate 7 and America so great. It even allows an 8 Assemblyperson of the distinction of Nettie 9 Mayersohn to walk into our chamber unharassed on 10 your side of the aisle, as well as on our side 11 of the aisle. 12 Now, Mr. President, as has been 13 pointed out by Senator Skelos -- by Senator 14 Skelos, we are discussing whether or not the 15 Journal is appropriate, and it's quite obvious 16 that whatever happened here yesterday was not 17 read as part of the Journal and in order to 18 understand that, I would ask Senator Leichter to 19 yield to a question. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, I would 21 yield. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Leichter, you do yield? The Senator yields, 1 Senator Gold. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, in view 3 of what you've heard and what's been read, 4 perhaps you can tell me what you think about the 5 Journal as it's proposed and what you would do 6 about it. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Mr. 8 President, I think, first of all, we all ought 9 to be indebted to Senator Gold for calling our 10 attention to the importance of the Journal. You 11 know there's a lot of things that go on here. 12 We're all very busy. We're rushed, and so on, 13 and while Senator Bruno obviously has enough 14 clean clothes to last him throughout the week 15 and beyond, you know, we're running from 16 meetings; we're going back to our districts. I 17 went back last night. I just came up this 18 morning, and sometimes we overlook things that 19 maybe ought to get more of our attention. One 20 of them is the Journal, and I think it's healthy 21 for us to take a look at it, see are we adopting 22 a Journal that really reflects what happened; 23 have we had a chance to examine it, to look at 1 it, to discuss it, to think about it? It's an 2 important document. Anything that is bound this 3 fancy is an important document. I think it's 4 fair to judge it just on its weight. We 5 wouldn't be printing something -- we wouldn't be 6 putting that sort of fancy binding on it if we 7 didn't think what was in here was very 8 significant, important, something that the 9 public, if it looks at, can be assured that it 10 is absolutely correct. 11 Though I am grateful to Senator 12 Gold and I'm sure all of you are for calling our 13 attention to it and saying, "From now on, let us 14 start each day with a good, healthy, prolonged 15 discussion of the Journal", and I think that we 16 can draw some other conclusions from what 17 Senator Gold said, that maybe other things here 18 happen too quickly. Bills are incorporating a 19 volunteer fire department. Rush through. Maybe 20 it ought to be discussed at greater length, 21 obviously germane. Oh, we wouldn't discuss 22 anything that wasn't germane, but maybe, you 23 know, we find we have this consent calendar and 1 maybe we would benefit by having a healthier, 2 longer, prolonged discussion on bills. After 3 all, that's what we're sent up here to do, which 4 is to pass legislation which hopefully will be 5 of benefit to the people of this state. 6 Now, one of the things that 7 concerns me about the reading of the Journal of 8 yesterday was that these rules changes which 9 were proposed, and I assume they will be 10 reflected in the Journal -- and these rule 11 changes, frankly, I find very, very disturbing, 12 and with all due respect, Senator Bruno, I 13 understand that for you what happens on the 14 floor is really very insignificant because the 15 decision has already been made. Wait a second. 16 What are people up here debating things? 17 You just had your Republican 18 Conference and we know that you make the 19 decisions there behind closed doors; you shut 20 out the public; you legislate in secrecy and 21 then when you come here, it's a matter of just 22 rubber stamping it, confirming it because, 23 unfortunately, the state Constitution doesn't 1 provide that what the Republican Majority does 2 in conference is the equivalent to the passage 3 of legislation, so you've got to come here to 4 this chamber but, "My God, the Democrats are 5 getting up and debating things that we've 6 already decided. What are they debating it 7 for? I've got 31 votes. This is going to pass. 8 I've decided not to leg... legislation is out. 9 I've decided to put this legislation out. Those 10 decisions are made. Now they want to debate. 11 So how are we going to stifle debate? How can I 12 move this along?" Senator Bruno thinks, "Ah, 13 germaneness. I will use that as a weapon to try 14 to stifle deliberation and debate in the Senate 15 chamber", and that's all that it is. It's 16 totally, absolutely, completely unworkable, and 17 with all due respect, sir, I think what we see 18 here are the proposals that come out of this 19 Pataki administration, that come from my good 20 friend Senator Bruno that are so poorly thought 21 out because let me tell you what's going to 22 happen. If you try to proceed on germaneness - 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 1 Skelos, why do you rise? 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you just 3 yield - 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Sure. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: -- for one 6 moment? Just -- I know that we're correcting 7 the minutes in the Journal and just to make sure 8 that people understand that you haven't made a 9 misstatement here, because you never would do 10 that, I just recall at one point last year - 11 when you're talking about everything is decided 12 in our conference, there was a point last year 13 where, I believe Senator Connors indicated that 14 the resolution on casino gambling would never 15 pass this house. Senator Bruno could not have 16 that resolution pass this house. 17 It was announced during, before 18 and after our conference and somehow we passed 19 it. So I just want to have certain minutes, you 20 know, corrected to show that everything isn't 21 just decided in our conference, that there can 22 be open and fair debate, and once in a while, 23 Senator Connors will make a mistake as to what 1 your conference's position is for or against a 2 bill, just as sometimes we do. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 4 Skelos, I'm, frankly, somewhat dumbfounded that 5 you would give this example because if I 6 understand what happened, it proves precisely my 7 point. Instead of Senator Bruno putting out 8 this resolution on the floor, you had a 9 conference. He twisted everybody's arm. As I 10 understand it from reports, there was this 11 emotional presentation, "Support the leader. 12 Support the leader", and I understand you were 13 extremely -- let me finish, please. I 14 understand, Senator Skelos, that you were 15 extremely eloquent and made a very emotional 16 pitch, so you all decided to come out here on 17 the floor and you had all the votes. It was all 18 decided. That exactly proves my point. I don't 19 know why Senator Bruno -- please, let me finish. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Leichter -- Senator Leichter -- excuse me - 22 Senator -- Senator Leichter, if I might just 23 kind of keep this under control. Do you 1 continue to yield to Senator Skelos? 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: I will if my 3 good friend would just allow me to finish a 4 question that he asked me before. 5 So I think the point is well 6 made, Senator, and it's well-known in this 7 Capitol that the Republican Conference operates 8 behind closed doors; you shut out the public; 9 you don't let the public know how people vote, 10 what they do in there and you make a decision 11 there because as we know, Republicans like to 12 move in lock step, and what we find is that the 13 Republicans need to be a monolithic voting 14 block. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 16 Leichter, would you yield? 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Leichter yields. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 21 Leichter, is your conference open to the public? 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if we 23 open up our conference to the public and to the 1 press -- first of all, most of our conferences 2 are. There's all sorts of people in there, but 3 let me just tell you, I don't think any -- I 4 don't know whether anybody would even bother 5 coming. My position, Senator - 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Is your 7 conference open to the public? 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 9 I believe I have the floor. Our conference, 10 Senator, is open on most issues and as I 11 understand it, as I have observed, the staff 12 people, other people, I happen to believe -- and 13 I've taken the position -- and let me just be 14 perfectly candid with you. Some of my members 15 of this side of the aisle don't agree with me. 16 I would open up the conference, and Senator 17 Hoffmann has had a bill or resolution to that 18 effect which I support but, Senator, it's much 19 more significant -- it's much more significant 20 to have the Majority -- to have the Majority 21 open up because you're the ones who are making 22 the decisions. You're making it behind closed 23 doors. 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 2 Leichter, you know, I wish now - 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Leichter, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR SKELOS: I wish I could 6 right now ask my good friends from Newsday or 7 the -- Gus Bliven from Syracuse whether, in 8 fact, they are entitled, since you said your 9 conference is open, from time to time, to attend 10 the meetings of the Minority Conference. Is 11 your conference open? Is it open or is it not 12 open to the public? I would even attend if your 13 conference was open to the public. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: I -- Senator, 15 while - 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Not as a member 17 of the Minority, but I would love to attend. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, we 19 would be happy to invite you, and I assume that 20 you will reciprocate and invite us into your 21 conference. The fact of the matter is I don't 22 think we need to play games here. The fact is 23 that the Majority Conference needs to be open. 1 You open your conference and I assure you that 2 the Democratic Conference will be open. 3 Let Senator Bruno -- he's made a 4 lot of announcements over the course of the 5 years about openness, about disclosure, and so 6 on. Some of us are having a little difficulty 7 finding the implementation, Senator Bruno, but 8 the statements are wonderful. They're 9 beautiful. Maybe now we can get a statement 10 from you saying "Of course, I believe in open 11 government. We will open up our conference. 12 I'll let people see how I'm able to get 31 votes 13 for casino gambling when I walked in there and I 14 had seven votes." So I think people would be 15 very interested, and I know Gus and others, as 16 soon as you open the door, he'll be -- he'll be 17 right in there and he should be in there because 18 the people of Syracuse, the people throughout 19 the state are entitled to know how decisions are 20 being made, but what we're coming to here now 21 and what I'm addressing is a totally unworkable 22 rule. This is going to be a Pandora's box for 23 you because in this house, we don't have the 1 tradition of an impartial -- I'll yield to 2 Senator Bruno. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 4 me, Senator Leichter. 5 Senator Bruno, why do you rise? 6 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator, I wonder 7 if I might at this time make an announcement; 8 would you give me your indulgence? 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: I certainly 10 will. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I 12 am overwhelmed by the arguments of my colleagues 13 on this side of the aisle, and I want to this 14 morning announce that the Republican Majority 15 Conference will be open to the public and that 16 will be Monday at 2:00 in the afternoon in Room 17 332. That conference will be open to the public 18 and the public can review how we function in our 19 conference, and that includes Minority members 20 who can see, Mr. President, how government truly 21 works here in this state and in the Senate, 22 because we're proud of our process. It can be 23 open and the members participate, and I would 1 welcome an opportunity to visit the Minority's 2 Conference at their earliest opportunity to see 3 how government works on that side of the aisle. 4 So please accept this as an invitation publicly 5 to attend our conference. It will start sharply 6 at 2:00 on this coming Monday. I know that 7 they'll all be in town and I know that you will 8 all be interested, so thank you very much, 9 Senator, for your indulgence, and I'll remind 10 you that there is a fine of $1 a minute if 11 you're late, and that includes -- that includes 12 the press -- I'm only kidding -- and the maximum 13 is $10, so bring your wallets, but you're all 14 welcome. 15 Thank you, Mr. President. Thank 16 you, Senator. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 18 if Senator Bruno would be good enough to yield. 19 First of all, let me thank the distinguished 20 Majority Leader and also thank Senator Gold. I 21 said he had performed a valuable service, as did 22 Senator Paterson, because we have made possibly 23 -- possibly more strides in this than we have 1 been debating and opening up government in this 2 Capitol than has been made in the 25 previous 3 years that I have been here. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Leichter - 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator Bruno, 7 if you would - 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Leichter, just as a matter of procedure so I'm 10 straight as to what we're doing here, can I ask 11 you a question? 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: I just 13 asked - 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I 15 understand, but you were recognized and the 16 floor yielded you -- I should say the Chair 17 yielded the floor to you for the purpose of 18 responding to a question from Senator Gold. I 19 take it now because you're asking somebody else 20 a question that, in fact, you have answered the 21 question to Senator Gold. You are, for your 22 information, the next person on the speaker 23 list, so you would have the floor automatic 1 ally. Have we now moved to the point that 2 you're on the floor of your own volition and not 3 as a result of responding to a question from 4 Senator Gold? 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah. Mr. 6 President - 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All 8 right. With that understanding, Senator Bruno, 9 do you yield to a question from Senator 10 Leichter? 11 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 12 President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Senator yields, Senator Leichter. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, will 16 that Republican Conference be open from here 17 on? Is this just sort of a nice, friendly tea 18 that you're having on the 22nd, or can we expect 19 that from now on, as decisions are made in the 20 Republican Conference, that it will be open to 21 everybody who brings their wallet, in case 22 they're going to be fined? 23 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, as 1 the good Senator has commented, we are making 2 history in this chamber this morning, and as you 3 make history, you have to be careful because it 4 will be recorded for posterity, so that we will 5 see how the conference goes on Monday, and it 6 will be a regular agenda that we will be 7 relating to, and we'll see how it goes and at 8 the conclusion of our discussions, we will make 9 some judgments as to how we go forward and, Mr. 10 President, while we're making history, I am 11 going to suggest the possibility that we have 12 joint conferences, the Minority with the 13 Majority on some issues and, Mr. President, we 14 all know how efficient that would be in terms of 15 public service, that we discuss these important 16 issues together rather than separately, and it's 17 my understanding, Mr. President, that -- and 18 this is a question -- that there will be a 19 conference call from the floor today by the 20 Minority, and I'm wondering if that might be 21 open for us to participate with you since we're 22 here and we will be standing in recess while you 23 conference? I would love to participate if, in 1 your good judgment, you think that contributes 2 to open government. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator Bruno. 4 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: And I see 6 Senator Paterson as Minority Leader will give 7 you probably a fuller answer, let me just point 8 out to you that there are - 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Leichter, are you asking Senator Bruno to yield 11 again? 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: No, no. I 13 think he asked a question and I'm responding to 14 it and then Senator Paterson will respond more 15 fully, but I just want to point out to Senator 16 Bruno that there are already such things as 17 joint conferences. 18 Do you know that right now, this 19 is a joint conference? The joint conferences 20 are when we get together here on the floor and 21 have a session, and we have been urging that 22 those joint conferences be open, be fair, that 23 the will of the people be done and that issues 1 be discussed fully and that debate -- deliberate 2 debate not be cut off under the guise of 3 somebody claiming it's not germane. 4 I'll yield to Senator Paterson. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 6 recognizes Senator Paterson. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. 9 I wanted to advise the Majority 10 Leader that last year, I held a joint conference 11 on the issue of the relief for women who are the 12 victims and the children who are the victims of 13 the AIDS virus, and what we decided to do -- and 14 I believe it was on March 16th -- was we decided 15 to invite members of the Assembly. We also 16 decided to invite the Majority, and Senators 17 Goodman and Velella sent representatives and 18 Senator Marcellino came himself, and this was a 19 conference that was designed to enjoy an open 20 exchange of ideas and opinions, and we tried to 21 get to the action -- to the factual issues, and 22 it was really quite helpful because, since it 23 was not an official session and there wasn't a 1 media opportunity for individuals and it wasn't 2 -- it was really just a conference, I think 3 everybody that was there felt that we came a 4 long way to actually learning about the problem, 5 and we debated and we disagreed on the floor and 6 the bill -- Senator Velella's bill inevitably 7 passed. I voted against the bill but was 8 significantly informed prior to the discussion 9 -- I thought it was one the best debates we had 10 this year, and so to -- before this conversation 11 becomes too obtuse -- because I would never call 12 it not germane -- I was thinking that the issue 13 that brought us to the review of the Journal 14 today is the issue of changing the Senate rules, 15 and perhaps would it not be a better idea or 16 maybe a little more foresighted since there's a 17 desire to change the Senate rules -- I would 18 just like to point out a couple of things that I 19 think were good in the changes. 20 For instance, under the new 21 rules, a Senator who is not part of the 22 discussion cannot be asked a question and asked 23 into the discussion and actually, the Majority 1 Leader, I found victimized by that last year and 2 on a couple of occasions I had to ask -- answer 3 questions when I wasn't even part of the 4 discussions. I think that is a significant 5 change that will help this body. 6 A very interesting new rule 7 that's coming out today that has been suggested 8 by the Majority is the idea that the addendum to 9 a bill -- the bill amendments will be accompan 10 ied by amendments to the bill memorandums. It 11 has often been the problem for all Senators that 12 there's an amendment to a bill but there isn't 13 significant language that explains it, and I 14 think that the amendment process is extremely 15 foresighted and I think it's an excellent idea. 16 Now, the issue of germaneness is 17 one that is problematic because we would not 18 want the issues that are being discussed to be 19 decided by a presiding officer who disagrees 20 with the point of view of the speaker. I think 21 all of us would agree to that, so it is really a 22 question of subjectivity and a personal 23 interpretation. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Paterson. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Pardon 5 the interruption here, but there's an awful lot 6 of noise. I'm having a very difficult time up 7 here. There are members in the back who are 8 speaking, members down on the floor. Can we ask 9 the members, if they have to have a 10 conversation, to please take the conversation 11 out of the chamber? 12 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm sorry, Mr. 13 President. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't blame those 14 members. Often when the speaker is overly 15 euphemistic and uninteresting, people are driven 16 to have side conversations. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I think 18 they're probably as confused as I was, Senator 19 Paterson. It seemed to me from the Chair's 20 perspective, that Senator Leichter yielded the 21 floor to you for the purpose of answering a 22 question that Senator Bruno had asked and I have 23 yet to hear the answer, so I think they're 1 probably as confused as I am. 2 Now, Senator Leichter, am I 3 correct that you yielded the floor to Senator 4 Paterson for that purpose solely? 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, sir. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Then I 7 would ask Senator Paterson, would you please 8 answer the question that Senator Bruno 9 responded. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: The question was, 11 are we welcome to attend your conference this 12 afternoon? Is that open to the public, because 13 I am free this afternoon and some of my 14 colleagues are and we would be very happy to be 15 participating in whatever it is that's 16 important. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 18 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes? Thank you. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: As a matter of 20 fact, that's exactly what I was explaining, that 21 these are the things we're going to be talking 22 about as far as rule changes, and so we not only 23 would welcome your participation, but we -- we 1 think that would be an excellent opportunity to 2 sit down and talk about some of these situa 3 tions, and I was defining the areas where we 4 think that this goes beyond stare decisis in the 5 sense that it is creating new rules that will 6 help the body in the areas that we think that 7 some of the rules are a little bit strident and 8 we would advise against them. We can have a 9 more significant discussion of that. We hope 10 that you will be there. 11 The Acting President, since he's 12 already been confused by my interpretation, he 13 might not want to attend, but we'll be meeting 14 at what time? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 16 you, Senator Paterson. 17 Senator Leichter, you have the 18 floor. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Right after 20 session. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Gold, why do you rise? 1 SENATOR GOLD: Would Senator 2 Leichter yield for just one question? 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Leichter, do you yield to Senator Gold? 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Senator yields. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Leichter 10 and Senator Bruno, particularly, I think it's - 11 there's a point we try to make -- and, Senator 12 Leichter, don't you think this is true, it's a 13 point I have been trying to make for years. 14 Senator Hoffmann and Senator Leichter and 15 Senator Dollinger have been pulling at this 16 chamber for years to do certain things and 17 they've made the comment that, if you do it, 18 even though it is Senator Hoffmann who ought to 19 get the credit and Senator Leichter who ought to 20 get the credit and Senator Dollinger who ought 21 to get the credit, when you open your conference 22 on Monday, the fact remains, Senator, you will 23 still get that credit, and that's fine, and I 1 remember a certain governor saying to me that, 2 you know, this one and that one can do anything 3 they want. When it comes time to sign the bill 4 into law, the governor is one with the pen and 5 you can't take that away from him. 6 So, Senator Bruno, we understand 7 that, and I think it's terrific that, if nothing 8 else this morning, we have dragged you this way 9 that we have tried to take you all of these 10 years. That's terrific, and I see you shaking 11 your head and I know that when you do that to me 12 like that, that there's nothing -- you don't 13 mean that in any particular way but, Senator, 14 I'm glad that you're smiling about it, because 15 the fact of the matter is that if we can get 16 changes that open up government, that's what 17 we're trying to do. 18 Now, the one thing, though - 19 Senator Leichter, this is my question -- that I 20 think ought to be out there, Senator Bruno, is 21 that every week we have these conferences and 22 meetings. You may have forgotten about them 23 since you became the Leader. Now, I have a 1 conference every week with Senator Volker. It's 2 called a committee meeting, and my colleague, 3 Senator Smith, goes to a committee meeting and 4 my colleagues go and we have these conferences 5 but, Senator, what is the good of that if the 6 fact of the matter is that when somebody says, 7 "Why don't we consider one of the Democratic 8 proposals" and all there is is the kind of grim 9 for which you're famous for, Senator, and 10 nothing happens, or if we sit in the room -- if 11 we have joint conferences -- you say we should 12 have joint conferences; we should, as to what 13 the rules are -- as to what the rules are but, 14 Senator Bruno, I don't remember a joint 15 conference before these rules came up. 16 Now, if it's only a question of 17 sitting in a room and having you be the 18 benevolent dictator and dictate to us what's 19 going to happen, that's not a real conference, 20 Senator. The answer is it's nice when we sit 21 and have a cup of coffee and we feel the freedom 22 to exchange ideas and we listen to each other, 23 but if you're just setting up a mechanism which 1 is just going to try to legitimatize the same 2 dictatorship that has ruled here, that doesn't 3 do anything. The words are right but nothing 4 happens. 5 So, Senator Leichter, my question 6 is what do you think about that? 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 8 think you stated it very well and I think very 9 accurately because I think that by our acting 10 and interacting together, I think that we're 11 going to be doing a better job. There's going 12 to be better -- a better legislative product. 13 Now, Senator Bruno, you know, 14 unfortunately, democracy is sloppy. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Leichter, excuse me. 17 Senator Paterson. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: I've got to 19 finish one sentence, but I'll yield to 20 Senator - 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Paterson, why do you rise? 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 1 if Senator Leichter would yield for a question 2 or if Senator Bruno would, I would - 3 SENATOR BRUNO: I would be happy 4 to, Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Leichter has the floor, Senator Paterson. The 7 normal procedure of the house would be to ask 8 the person speaking and who's been recognized on 9 the floor to yield to a question rather than 10 somebody else. 11 If Senator Leichter wishes to 12 give up his position on the floor to Senator 13 Bruno, I'm sure that that could be accomplished. 14 At this point, Senator Leichter, do you yield to 15 a question by Senator Paterson -- or from 16 Senator Paterson? 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 19 Senator yields, Senator Paterson. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, I will 21 yield to Senator Paterson and ask the question 22 of Senator Bruno and I'll - 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 1 Leichter, if you do that, you're yielding your 2 position on the floor. That's not permissible 3 under past experience in this chamber. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: What I'm going 5 to do, Mr. President, is I'm going to ask 6 Senator Leichter the question and at any point 7 when Senator Bruno can provide some information, 8 he may get up and answer it, so we'll be within 9 the rules. I just thought that we might 10 streamline the process and get right to the 11 point here. Would it not be more in keeping 12 with the new spirit of cooperation and procedure 13 that we table any movement today on the rules 14 pending these conferences, Senator Leichter or 15 Senator Bruno, so that we can have this exchange 16 and have this discussion about the proposed rule 17 changes? 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 19 Paterson, I think it makes a lot of sense - 20 before I yield to Senator Bruno, whether I think 21 it makes sense counts very little, but before I 22 yield to Senator Bruno to answer it, if -- if I 23 could just have Senator Bruno's attention for 1 one moment and, indeed, the point I was trying 2 to make about the rules -- and with all due 3 respect, I don't think it was very well thought 4 out. I understand you would like things to run 5 smoother, quicker, easier, have this body ratify 6 decisions made by the Republican Conference, but 7 the problem with democracy is that you can't put 8 it in a nice, neat little box, and the diffi 9 culty with your rules, Senator Bruno, if you 10 would just listen to this point that I'm making 11 and possibly that would have some impact on how 12 you answer Senator Paterson. 13 I just want to point out to you, 14 you're opening up a Pandora's box because every 15 time that the President or the Acting President 16 will rule something not germane, you're going to 17 have a challenge; you're going to have a two 18 hour debate; you're going to cripple the opera 19 tions of this house, and I would just point out 20 to you, as I think Senator Gold very reasonably 21 pointed out, germaneness is something like in 22 the eyes of the beholder. I don't think we've 23 had a real problem in this house that people 1 have gone way off the topic. Maybe at times I 2 have; maybe at times somebody else has, but the 3 fact is that we do operate, I think reasonably 4 efficiency -- efficiently, not always very open, 5 but at least we certainly are reasonably 6 efficient. 7 We have a two-hour limit on 8 debates as it is, so there's no real risk from 9 your viewpoint the debate is just going to spill 10 over from days to days, and so on, and I'll also 11 just ask you to look at how this is going to be 12 seen by the public, because the fact is that we 13 don't have an impartial president. It's not 14 like the British House of Commons where the 15 Speaker has a reputation of absolute impeccable 16 fairness. We know that even a president as 17 excellent as the presiding officer today -- and 18 he knows the high regard I have for him -- that 19 if he gets a call from the Majority Leader, 20 suddenly we're going to find a ruling that 21 something is not germane, then we're going to 22 have a challenge to the floor, two-hour debate, 23 I think that you will find that things will 1 become totally out of hand. 2 So, Senator Bruno, I hope that 3 you will take Senator Paterson's suggestion of 4 -- with due consideration and that you will 5 agree to table it. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Bruno, I assume you yield to that question. 8 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 9 President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Senator yields. 12 Senator Bruno. 13 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 14 thinking about this and reviewing it and 15 mentally going through the pros and cons and - 16 verbally with my colleagues, Mr. President, we 17 have to make a decision to go forward today with 18 this orderly process because we're following all 19 of the rules of the Senate and, Mr. President, I 20 think it's critically important -- and I was 21 hoping that what I'm saying, we could have been 22 saying in a debate and a review of the rules 23 changes when they were on the floor, that we may 1 not have that opportunity today. We may not get 2 there until tomorrow, so in answer to your 3 question about what are we doing, let me share 4 with you, my colleagues and the public, that 5 everything that we are proposing in rules 6 changes for this chamber, everything, we have 7 learned from Speaker Shelly Silver, everything. 8 Now, is he a dictator, Senator 9 Leichter? Is Speaker Silver a dictator? He 10 adopted all of these rules last year or the 11 previous year, all of them. Is he a dictator? 12 I don't think so. I think he is open. I think 13 he is responsive. I think his chamber functions 14 in a fairly efficient way. So I am a continual 15 student. I have learned from the Speaker, and 16 having learned from the Speaker, we are adopting 17 rules that he has already adopted. Every one of 18 these rules changes is in Robert's Rules of 19 Order, the accepted parliamentary procedure for 20 the world and Mason's Rules of Legislature - 21 Legislative Procedure which is adopted in the 22 majority of Legislatures throughout New York 23 State, Mr. President. All of the rules changes 1 that will affect our procedure are in the 2 Assembly as their rules are functioning today 3 and are in Robert's Rules, in Mason's Rules of 4 Parliamentary Procedure. 5 Now, I know that my colleagues 6 didn't know that -- you didn't know that the 7 Speaker has been my tutor in this, or you 8 wouldn't be making remarks like "dictator, 9 benevolent dictator", because I know that he 10 isn't and you know that he isn't and you know 11 that he believes in openness and good 12 government, as we do. So on his behalf since 13 he's not here, I would like to say, Senators, 14 that he would resent being called a benevolent 15 dictator, and on his behalf, I want to share 16 with you that I would resent that if I were him 17 as well. 18 So on behalf of the Speaker, let 19 me share with you that he is not a dictator. He 20 has implemented these rules for order and for 21 efficiency and we are now doing the same. I 22 would have hoped that we might have been able to 23 get to those rules in an orderly way, Mr. 1 President, have them on the floor so that all of 2 us would know exactly what we were talking 3 about, but we still have about, oh, 47 minutes 4 to go on the debate over the Journal, and so we 5 will wait, but I wanted to just share that with 6 you, that these are all adopted already in the 7 Assembly, so I don't want anyone to be concerned 8 or overly concerned that we're doing anything 9 extraordinary or anything that hasn't been tried 10 and proven to create order and efficiency, and 11 we all know how efficiently the Assembly runs 12 their house. We all know how calm and peaceful 13 they get together over there and move things, 14 okay, because many of you have served in the 15 Assembly. 16 So, Mr. President, I just thought 17 that at this time it might be worth a few 18 minutes to explain so everyone can be 19 comfortable that what we're doing here is very 20 positive, very productive. We have learned from 21 the Assembly on how to do things better, and 22 that's really all that we are proposing here is 23 that we copy the Assembly so that we can do 1 things better in this house together, and this 2 is really a move towards working closer, better, 3 being open, as we have been, and I really -- I 4 fully appreciate the attitude that you reflect, 5 Senator Paterson, as you are on your feet and as 6 you work with your colleagues to make sure that 7 this procedure is orderly. I have appreciated 8 that and I still do. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Paterson, why do you rise? 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 12 first, I would like to thank the Majority Leader 13 for that reference and would like to say that we 14 would go a lot further in these discussions if 15 we didn't refer to people who have worked as 16 hard in arduous detail in government as 17 dictators. It kind of diminishes the value of a 18 real dictator and what dictators have done over 19 the years, but I would like to remind all of us 20 in the chamber - 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Paterson, there's been a formality that, as the 23 presiding officer, I have to, I think continue, 1 and that is that I do have a list of speakers 2 going. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm sorry. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Bruno did not have the floor. Senator Leichter 6 had the floor. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm sorry. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Leichter has seated himself. I assume he has 10 yielded the floor. Senator Gold was next on the 11 list. If Senator Gold wishes to yield to you 12 for the floor, I'm more than happy to recognize 13 you for whatever purposes of debate you wish to 14 pursue. 15 Senator Gold, do you yield to 16 Senator Paterson? 17 SENATOR GOLD: No, no. Do I have 18 the floor now? I don't want to yield. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You have 20 the floor next. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Good. Senator 22 Paterson, what did you want to say? Would you 23 answer that question and then I'll get the floor 1 back. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Paterson. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: In response to 6 what the Majority Leader was contending, the 7 Assembly does not have the two-hour debate rule 8 for closure that does exist in the new proposal 9 for rules of the Senate. 10 Now, Senator Bruno says that 11 everything that has been submitted is in 12 Robert's Rules of Order. Well, it is in 13 Robert's Rules of Order, but it is actually 14 described by Robert's Rules of Order -- and this 15 is not my description. I'm not trying to be 16 shrill -- but it is described in Section 39 of 17 Robert's Rules of Order as a "gag order"; in 18 other words, where there is a debate and it is 19 ruled not to be germane and the debate is now 20 cut off by a simple majority, Robert's Rules of 21 Order does in Section 20 point out that you 22 might want to make that claim, but it goes on in 23 Section 39 to suggest that it be made by a 1 two-thirds majority, so to suggest that it's in 2 Robert's Rules of Order is somewhat misleading 3 because it is in there but it is in there for 4 purposes of Robert's Rules of Order correcting 5 that as something that is considered to be 6 rather cruel and rather punitive to actually end 7 a debate because you do not agree with the 8 debater, so I want to point out, factually, that 9 these are some new and open rules. 10 Since our conversation is about 11 the Journal, Mr. President, what I said 12 yesterday -- and I do not know because I haven't 13 been given a copy of the Journal at the point 14 when these were first issued, is that they were 15 not seasonable. They are not issued timely in 16 terms of the amount of time that a new rules 17 change would be reviewed by other Senators, so 18 even the submission of these rules are not in 19 compliance with the rules of the Senate and, 20 therefore, I must respectfully request that we 21 put this over 'til next week, which is what I 22 suggested yesterday at the end of session, for a 23 proper time of review and so that both of our 1 conferences, the Democratic Conference which 2 will be held today and the Republican Conference 3 which will be held on Monday, will offer time to 4 have a discussion on these issues. In our 5 conference on Monday which we invite the 6 Majority to attend, we're also going to be going 7 over the budget analyses prepared by our staff 8 which we think are extremely comprehensive and 9 extremely detailed, and we think that all 10 members of the Senate should see it since our 11 limited staff and those who are empowered to 12 conduct that research have performed, I think 13 way above and beyond the call of duty and have 14 really set down what may be actually the best 15 analysis of the budget that exists, but in 16 conclusion, what I would just like to say, Mr. 17 President, is that there are just a few examples 18 I have given, but I could go on, that I don't 19 think these rules are consistent with what 20 anyone else has done and, quite frankly, maybe 21 it's time for a little mea culpa on the part of 22 all of us in the Legislature, rather than 23 answering by blaming each other that we sit down 1 together and have a system that rewards 2 individual... individuality and also allows for 3 leadership. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 6 recognizes Senator Gold. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you very 8 much. 9 First, Senator Bruno, I have an 10 idea. You seem to be in a receptive mood today 11 which I think is encouraging, and I have a 12 suggestion and it's a serious suggestion, 13 Senator. You're telling us that the Assembly 14 does certain things and you're willing to learn 15 from them. I think that they ought to be 16 willing to learn from you, and I think we all 17 learn from each other. Why don't you suggest 18 today, Senator Bruno, that the four leaders, 19 either themselves or by designees, set up a 20 meeting whereby we can agree, not on joint rules 21 because we have joint rules, but as to a really 22 good set of legislative rules. You'll have four 23 people in there. As it turns out, two 1 Republicans, two Democrats, and then we will 2 have rules set up that obviously will protect if 3 the Majority is the Majority -- you have your 31 4 votes to protect that -- but also you can have 5 the ideas from the Minority in the Assembly as 6 to their feelings on Assemblyman Silver's rules; 7 you'll have our feelings on yours and maybe at 8 that point there's a set of legislative rules 9 that might become a standard for the country. 10 Maybe that will work, but I throw that out to 11 you and, Senator, you can take the lead on that 12 and, again, as I said so many times, if you read 13 the Journal today, you'll find I made the 14 comment, but if you do it, the credit is yours. 15 The credit is yours, because the power to enact 16 it is yours. 17 Something I think is very 18 interesting. There was a legislative counsel 19 years ago, very, very successful legislative 20 counsel and I'm hoping that your counsels didn't 21 learn from him, but whenever there was a bill 22 that was 30 or 40 pages long, you always knew 23 that the problem in the bill was about three or 1 four pages from the end, because they figured by 2 the time people read page 1, 2, 3, 8, 10, you 3 know, they start to get a little tired; they 4 start to get a little bored, so if there was a 5 little pizzazz or something that was going to go 6 into the bill, you knew it was near the end. 7 I tell that story because I have 8 in my hand a press release. It says "News from 9 Senator Joseph L. Bruno" and it is January 17th, 10 "Senate approves changes in the rules" and you 11 say you expect it to happen. I'm not pointing 12 it out to suggest you're arrogant -- and I know 13 you're not and I don't mean that, but this is 14 your release and I think it's fascinating, and I 15 asked the press to take a look at it because 16 you'll understand the story I just told. 17 What is the first thing? 18 Adoption of the rule changes, housekeeping 19 issues including: 20 One, "Establishing a Committee on 21 Racing, Gaming and Wagering." Well, that's the 22 first thing he wants the press to focus on. 23 The second thing he wants the 1 press to focus on is changing the official name 2 of the Senate Energy Committee to the Senate 3 Committee on Energy and Telecommunications. 4 The third thing which brings us 5 to the bottom of the page is "Conforming Senate 6 rules with a Court of Appeals decision which 7 dealt with recalling." Now, that's the first 8 page, obviously, I guess, the most important 9 things that he wants to point out. 10 On the second page, though, there 11 is more, such as requiring something to do with 12 hostile amendments, and I think Senator Paterson 13 referred to that. 14 Then there's something else, 15 "Clarifying committee attendance reports are 16 filed." 17 Then there's something else, 18 "Eliminating prohibitions against introduction 19 of bills on Friday." That's -- that is heavy 20 stuff, but it's not as important as the creation 21 or establishing a Committee on Racing and 22 Wagering. 23 Then there's another one, 1 "Clarifying the rule which requires that when a 2 bill is amended there be a sponsor." 3 Now, that's where the arrows 4 stop, all right? He's got one, two, three on 5 the first page and one, two, three, four -- four 6 on the second page. Seven arrows. 7 Then it says, as just a fleeting 8 last thought, "The Senate rules also amended to 9 clarify that orderly debate must be germane to 10 the issues." It says, "Another rule will enable 11 the Temporary President and the Minority, et 12 cetera, to make a motion on the previous 13 question." I mean, this is just other things 14 that are thrown in. 15 Senator Bruno, you are a smart 16 man and I know that and your counselors over 17 there are pretty shrewd guys. Aside from a golf 18 course, I don't want to deal with Dean Skelos 19 too much; he threatens me, but I don't think 20 it's an accident, Senator, that those were sort 21 of thrown in at the end as afterthoughts, and 22 what's today's debate all about, those things 23 you threw in? Why? That's the killers, we all 1 know that. 2 We're not concerned that you're 3 changing the name of a Senate committee. I 4 don't think we are. It doesn't bother me, but I 5 love that, after you point to the press and say, 6 "Fellows, take a -- and gals, take a look at 7 these seven arrows. These are heavy things", 8 you just throw it in at the end, "By the way, 9 we're going to stifle debate and cut it off any 10 time we want", but that doesn't really mean 11 anything. 12 On the one hand, Senator, I think 13 you could have done that honestly because since 14 your conference believes that the Senate is them 15 and not all of us, you may not think that 16 stifling debate and cutting off questions means 17 anything. From our point of view, Senator, we 18 think that's pretty heavy stuff. 19 And so, I say to you, Senator 20 Bruno -- and I hope this doesn't come up in 21 campaign literature, but I really do believe you 22 want some good changes here. I really do 23 believe it, but the problem, Senator, is that 1 there's nothing wrong with talking the things 2 out. Just as Governor Cuomo said to me, "Let 3 them say whatever they want. When I sign the 4 bill, I'm the one signing it." Senator, if we 5 have a joint meeting before we do any more rule 6 changes and we have people sitting down like you 7 and, if you want, Senator Velella who nobody is 8 going to take advantage of, I'm sure, and we'll 9 have some people on our side and Assemblyman 10 Reynolds and Assemblyman Silver and we just talk 11 out what are fair rules, that isn't going to 12 change the fact that your committee chairmen can 13 still discriminate, unfortunately. It's not 14 going to change a lot of facts around here, but 15 when you and Assemblyman Silver and Senator 16 Connor -- and it's "Connor", Senator Skelos, not 17 "Connors" -- and Assemblyman Reynolds stand up 18 and announce that there are, in fact, these new 19 rules, the quotes are going to be principally 20 yours and the quotes will be principally 21 Assemblyman Silver's, and that's okay, because 22 when people fight to have changes made, it is 23 still the people in power who have to get some 1 credit for taking some power away from 2 themselves and helping open up the system. 3 I have my doubts about a lot of 4 things and, as I said over the years, you know, 5 the Majority sets the rules and then it's my job 6 to work within those rules and so far you 7 haven't been able to pass one that -- excuse me, 8 do you want -- you want an interruption? 9 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, if 10 Senator Gold would stand for a question. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Gold, do you yield to Senator Bruno for a 13 question? 14 SENATOR GOLD: Of course, I will. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Senator yields. 17 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. Thank you, Senator Gold. 19 Senator Gold, my question is 20 whether or not you recognize that we do not have 21 on the floor any of the rules changes that you 22 have been discussing and debating. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Yet. 1 SENATOR BRUNO: And that the 2 necessity of our making the rules changes are 3 illustrated by this debate, this discussion 4 taking place right now for one hour and 40 5 minutes on the first item, Mr. President -- the 6 first item to appear before this chamber. We 7 have not been able to pass the bills on the 8 Calendar, debate the bills on the Calendar 9 because there is discussion that is not germane 10 to the Journal, correcting the Journal, so there 11 is an abuse presently, Mr. President, of the 12 process of governing, and if we're going to 13 govern in a businesslike and efficient way, I 14 think this is a perfect illustration of the 15 necessity of moving forward because, Mr. 16 President -- and I ask Senator Gold, wouldn't it 17 be more appropriate to have allowed your 18 colleagues to proceed in an orderly fashion with 19 a calendar and as we bring the rules to the 20 floor, debate them, make recommendations for 21 tabling, do whatever is appropriate and germane 22 to the issue on the floor. What's happened here 23 for an hour and 40 minutes, or whatever time 1 frame it is, is that we have been discussing 2 what, the Journal and changes to the Journal? I 3 have yet to hear the first change that anyone 4 has suggested. 5 So, Mr. President and Senator 6 Gold, it's apparent that what's happening here 7 is to delay government, delay the people's work, 8 delay what we all get paid to do, deliberate 9 over bills, discuss bills, pass or reject 10 bills. We haven't been able to do that, Mr. 11 President. I almost feel as if we should be 12 giving back part of our pay for the day because 13 we haven't been able to function. I don't 14 suggest or recommend that, Senator, but we have 15 not been able to move, so I plead and I'm asking 16 the Senator if he agrees, Senator Gold, that 17 this is a perfect illustration of why we need 18 these rules changes in this house so that we can 19 do the people's business that we're elected to 20 do in an efficient, businesslike, orderly 21 manner. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 23 SENATOR BRUNO: What do you think 1 of that? 2 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I 3 cannot believe that Senator Bruno didn't think I 4 was expecting that question and I'm just shocked 5 it took an hour and 35 minutes for him to ask 6 it. The answer is this debate is a perfect 7 example of why your rules change is terrible. 8 We are doing the people's business by fighting 9 for the right to have open debate on issues in 10 the United States Senate, to have a filibuster 11 rule. Well, we don't have that kind of a rule, 12 but what does it recognize, that rule? It 13 recognizes that it is not the Majority putting 14 out a bill and passing a bill that's doing the 15 people's business. What is doing the people's 16 business is recognizing that minorities have 17 rights. That's part of the people's business. 18 Now, the people in my district 19 elected me to do a lot of things, one of which 20 is very local. We have a local district office 21 and we do work. One of us -- one of it is to 22 propose legislation, and I'm one of the lucky 23 ones. I have been able to pass the laws. 1 The other job is just as 2 important. Maybe it's even more important, and 3 that is when I think that you're wrong, as a 4 Majority, I can speak out and I can voice the 5 concerns of people who don't agree with you. 6 That is the people's business and, Senator 7 Bruno, with the greatest respect to an old 8 friend, that's what you don't understand. You 9 don't understand what the people's business is. 10 The people's business is more than having an 11 idea that you like and forcing it down someone's 12 throat. The people's business in this 13 wonderful, beautiful chamber is to have free and 14 open debate and to have things said that you 15 don't like, and I have seen great Majority 16 Leaders who have sat there boiling at me and 17 others, but they understood that that was part 18 of the job and you had to take it. 19 Now, unfortunately, you don't 20 have the luxury, I guess, that Warren Anderson 21 had and that Earl Brydges had, to have members 22 who understood that. Some of your members have 23 ants in their pants and not only that, they have 1 terrible guilt feelings because when they hear 2 something said that they don't agree with, they 3 go bananas and they say, "Wait a minute. We're 4 the Majority. Wait a minute. I'm the 5 Majority. You can't say that", and the answer 6 is, "Baloney, I can and I will and there's no 7 rules change that you're going to pass that's 8 going to quiet me down." 9 The bottom line here is very 10 simple. You have a certain amount of power and 11 that power puts a responsibility upon you and 12 you're not ready to accept that responsibility, 13 and these rules say that to me. These rules say 14 to me, "Senator Connor, I cannot accept the 15 responsibility of sitting here and being 16 uncomfortable by speech." You're telling me 17 that if somebody on this side of the aisle has 18 enough intellect to challenge you, or even 19 without a great amount of intellect, has a heart 20 and a soul that tells him something's wrong, 21 that you just can't sit there and take it. 22 Why? Maybe because you know we're right, but 23 for political reasons you don't want to do 1 what's right because you think that what's 2 political is better for you and it's not right, 3 so it makes you uncomfortable. 4 Senator, I want to tell you 5 something. It would be my delight to have 6 Senator Connor sitting in your seat, Senator 7 Bruno, and I'd like to sit in one of the other 8 seats, and I'll sit there for two hours and have 9 the Minority say anything they want to and then 10 bring things to a vote and then have the people 11 decide whether I'm right or wrong. That's doing 12 the people's business. If you think that doing 13 the people's business is stifling free debate, 14 you don't understand the people's business. 15 Mr. President, would Senator 16 Hoffmann yield to a question? 17 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Hoffmann, do you yield to a question from 20 Senator Gold? 21 SENATOR GOLD: What do you think 22 about the people's business? 23 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Senator Gold, 1 I appreciate you asking me the question because 2 I had several issues on my mind and I wanted to 3 address Senator Bruno as well. Perhaps you 4 could yield the floor long enough for me to 5 expand upon some of these thoughts on my own 6 and - 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Hoffmann, the Chair would recognize the fact 9 that it's not the normal custom to just pass the 10 mantle of "talkmanship" around the floor. I 11 also would note that, in fact, you are next on 12 the list, so this isn't necessary. 13 So, Senator Gold, you don't need 14 to ask the question if you don't want to. 15 Senator Hoffmann, the Chair would recognize - 16 SENATOR GOLD: I didn't have a 17 question. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I didn't 19 think you did, Senator Gold. Thank you. 20 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Senator Gold 21 does not have any questions for me, Mr. 22 President? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: He 1 doesn't have any questions. He withdrew them 2 all. 3 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: He knew 5 that you would be too competent in answering 6 them. 7 The Chair recognizes Senator 8 Hoffmann. 9 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr. 10 President. 11 I appreciate the opportunity to 12 be recognized on what I believe is a rather 13 momentous occasion, and I would be remiss if I 14 did not compliment my good friend, Senator 15 Bruno, for several of the things that he has 16 undertaken today and in past days, although my 17 praise is somewhat tempered by concern, which I 18 will explain in a little bit more detail; but I 19 must say that I was astounded when I walked into 20 the chamber, oh, about 40 minutes ago following 21 a committee meeting to discover that there had 22 been a call by the Majority Leader for an open 23 conference, and I would just ask, Senator Bruno, 1 because I wasn't here -- Mr. President, would 2 Senator Bruno yield briefly for a question? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Bruno -- Senator Bruno? 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 6 President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Would you 8 yield to a question from Senator Hoffmann? 9 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 10 President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Senator yields, Senator Hoffmann. 13 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Senator Bruno, 14 I was not in the chamber. As you know, it is 15 the habit of the Senate to occasionally call a 16 committee meeting off the floor. The committee 17 meeting called for Local Governments at 10:30, 18 on which I'm the ranking minority member, did 19 not convene until 11:00 o'clock, due to lack of 20 a quorum, so I was not back in the chamber until 21 11:10 or 11:15, and I deeply regret not having 22 been in the chamber at the time you apparently 23 announced a conference -- an open conference. 1 Just so I can hear it with my own 2 ears, would you be so kind as to restate the 3 concept of this conference? 4 SENATOR BRUNO: We are in 5 conference, Mr. President, Monday at 2:00 p.m. 6 in Room 332. Every week we meet on Mondays at 7 2:00 p.m., and my announcement was that Monday's 8 meeting will be open to the public. Our regular 9 conference will be open to the public, and that 10 was in response to Senator Leichter who inquired 11 as to whether that was a possibility. 12 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Mr. President, 13 if Senator Bruno would continue to yield for a 14 few more brief questions on the same subject. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Bruno continues to yield. 18 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr. 19 President. 20 Senator Bruno, I compliment you 21 on that most momentous announcement. 22 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you. 23 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I would ask if 1 you envision this conference to be one in which 2 all members of the Senate would be able to 3 participate with general discussion, or is this 4 a conference limited to only Republican Senators 5 with anybody else in the room being an 6 observer? 7 SENATOR BRUNO: You just said it 8 exactly as it will be, Senator. Naturally, our 9 conference is for the Majority members. Your 10 conference is for the Minority members. So the 11 people that will participate and talk and 12 question will be the Majority members and the 13 discussion will be open to the public so that 14 they can observe how we function in our 15 conference in the Majority. 16 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, 17 Senator Bruno. Thank you, Mr. President. 18 I very much appreciate your 19 clarifying that for me, Senator Bruno, and I 20 have a few reactions to this extremely 21 significant announcement which I would share 22 with you. 23 First of all, I pulled out of my 1 desk drawer my last newsletter which is dated 2 September 1990. I haven't been writing to my 3 constituents a great deal. I meet with them 4 frequently. We seem to be engaged in fairly 5 earnest conversation on a personal level, and I 6 chose some time ago to curtail, at least 7 temporarily, newsletters in the interest of 8 saving the taxpayers some money, which I believe 9 is a rather considerable sum by this state, 10 although I have no idea how much I've saved and 11 have never seen a full accounting of newsletter 12 expenditures, but I'm pleased with the way this 13 newsletter is still so current and yet I'm sad 14 that we are now achieving possibly the 15 beginnings of some of the things that I talked 16 about back in September of 1990, and I just hope 17 that there is a way that we can fast-track some 18 of these changes because I think this is 19 progress and I believe that you are sincere, 20 Senator Bruno, as are many of the members of 21 this house in wanting to improve the way we 22 deliver government to the taxpayers of this 23 state, but this newsletter that I sent out in 1 1990 stated, "Dear friends: After years of late 2 budgets and last-minute legislative maneuvering 3 to fund pet projects, it's time to change the 4 rules of the state Senate. With the deficit 5 growing ever larger, New York State can no 6 longer afford secret deals made by a handful of 7 men behind closed doors. Today, I believe the 8 public climate for reform is stronger than 9 ever. I have followed legislation and continue 10 to support changes in the rules which would, and 11 number 1, is open the legislative process to the 12 press and the public so major decisions are not 13 made in secret" and, Senator Bruno, at least 14 with one party conference, it appears that you 15 have now acceded to the request that I made back 16 in September of 1990 and earlier and has been 17 made by countless individuals and organizations 18 across the state. 19 I am not alone in requesting that 20 the closed door party conference be buried and 21 that we enter a new era. Organizations as 22 diverse as the League of Women Voters, Change 23 New York, Common Cause, NYPIRG, many organized 1 labor groups, the New York State Grange, dozens 2 of other organizations have filed memoranda of 3 support and communicated with us individually 4 and collectively in asking us to end this 5 archaic practice of convening in secret under 6 party banners to discuss the people's business 7 and to make decisions for which there is no 8 accountability. 9 This step that you're making 10 Monday, Senator Bruno, should be expanded on, 11 and I urge you over this weekend, over the next 12 few days, to consider seriously taking the next 13 appropriate step to truly bring our state Senate 14 into the '90s. Please consider eliminating all 15 closed door party conferences except when they 16 are necessary for political discussions and 17 instead allow the issues of the state to be 18 reviewed and voted upon in open committee 19 meetings. 20 There is no logical reason why 21 people from across this state who are elected by 22 300,000 individuals in each district should be 23 meeting under a party banner. It's an artificial 1 label. It does not fit us as individuals. It 2 boxes us into ridiculous thinking and posturing 3 at times when the voters, the taxpayers of this 4 state are furious that we appear to be more 5 preoccupied with our own benefits, with our own 6 future, with our own creature comforts than we 7 are with delivering services and dealing with 8 the root problems of this state. 9 You have said many times that as 10 a new leader, you wanted to do things 11 differently and you have made major steps. No 12 other leader in my tenure in 12 years has done 13 anything approaching which you've done, and I 14 recognize that the people who have selected you 15 as leader on the other side of the aisle do not 16 all embrace the idea of openness and many of 17 them probably wish to maintain the standard to 18 which they have become accustomed as Majority 19 members in this separate and not anything close 20 to equal legislative body, but you have the 21 power, Senator Bruno, and I believe you have the 22 courage and the wisdom to know it has been 23 changed if we are ever to redeem ourselves in 1 the eyes of the public. 2 And, Senator Bruno, with all due 3 respect, it is really beneath you as an 4 individual and it denigrates your own sense of 5 dignity to justify some of the changes which 6 would curb speech in this chamber by suggesting 7 that it's simply the same as what is done in the 8 Assembly, therefore it's okay. I know you as a 9 person hold yourself to the highest individual 10 standards, and I know you as a Senator and as 11 the Acting President of this Senate, hold this 12 Senate to the highest possible standards and 13 will not be governed by standards established by 14 any other legislative chamber. We have a 15 responsibility to do what is right for the 16 people of this state as we see it, not as some 17 other legislative chamber sees it. 18 Therefore, it is progress to see 19 one open conference, but it's only a beginning. 20 This chamber can only function for the tax 21 payers' best interests if we make the other 22 changes that are necessary. We don't need 23 separate and unequal staffs. We do not need 1 4,000 legislative employees, the largest number 2 of any state in the nation, including California 3 which has a full-time Legislature and vastly 4 more population. All we need is one central 5 professional staff and then the individual 6 staffs for each Senator. 7 I talked recently at a Medicare 8 conference with a couple of legislators from 9 Kansas. We were discussing the committees on 10 which they served and I asked about their 11 staffing and the central staffing and asked who 12 it was who appointed the staff, and they said 13 they really weren't sure, and I said, "Are they 14 Republicans or Democrats", and both of these 15 legislators looked at each other and said, "Gee, 16 I don't know. I never thought about that 17 before. They just do what we ask them to do and 18 they just staff the committee for all of us." 19 What a marvelous concept. How I would love to 20 be able to explain to the people in Madison, 21 Oneida and Onondaga County that we have 22 professionals staffing our Finance Committee who 23 are concerned about the issues of the state 1 deficit and the delivery of necessary, critical 2 services to the people of this state and they're 3 concerned about those issues first, not scoring 4 political points against the other side of the 5 aisle. 6 Every year for 12 years I have 7 watched us go through this ridiculous budget 8 circus where we have competing sides of the 9 aisle, not dealing with the issue of the deficit 10 or with the need for services, but we have 11 people lobbing brickbats over walls at the other 12 side and building ever-increasing walls until 13 it's impossible to see over the top and then 14 suddenly only in the face of enormous public 15 outrage when we're weeks, sometimes months late 16 with the budget, somebody burrows a hole through 17 that wall and they meet some place in secret in 18 one of these Capitol anterooms and begin to have 19 discussions in the middle of the night to cut 20 through some of this impasse. None of that 21 would be necessary if we would exercise some 22 common sense, some civility and some restraint, 23 if we would put aside these political 1 differences and stop clinging to the way of the 2 past. 3 The people in my district have 4 very limited interest in what political party I 5 am or what political party you are, Senator 6 Bruno. They want to know that we are here out 7 of concern for the taxpayers and not out of 8 concern for our political fiefdoms, but all too 9 often they are subjected to press releases and 10 news stories that begin: "The Republican 11 Majority did --" or "The Democratic Senators 12 responded --" or "The Democratic-controlled 13 Assembly initiated --" they don't care. They 14 don't think like Democrats or Republicans when 15 they pay their mortgage, when they go to the 16 bank, when they get foreclosed on, when they 17 lose their jobs and they don't expect us to 18 think like Democrats or Republicans when we are 19 dealing with their life and death issues. They 20 want us to put that aside and simply do the 21 bidding of the people in an open and genteel 22 way. 23 I would ask you, Senator Bruno - 1 I will send over this newsletter, special 2 delivery momentarily, because every one of these 3 issues is still valid. Every one of these 4 issues still needs to be addressed and you, in 5 your wisdom a year ago, undertook one of them 6 and did it in a very modest way, but you can do 7 the rest of them. 8 I was thrilled -- in fact, I put 9 out a press release complimenting you on 10 implementing one of my reform proposals in the 11 form of a rules change when you took the same 12 language that I had espoused for six or eight 13 years and in one fell swoop, your very first 14 order of business, you said we won't have any 15 post-midnight sessions and now you want to make 16 that a permanent rules change. Not only am I 17 personally gratified, I'm proud. I'm proud that 18 you would do that. I'm proud that as Temporary 19 President of this Senate, you were willing to do 20 that and that you did it in such an unselfish 21 and straightforward way, and I have confidence 22 that you can enact the rest of these changes and 23 that you can win the accolades of the people of 1 this state and the respect of your conference, 2 the respect of the people over here, more 3 appropriately, the respect of the taxpayers by 4 making the rest of these changes happen. 5 Change the procedure that would 6 allow a review by all of the appropriate 7 committees, any legislation, not just Republican 8 legislation. Allow everybody the opportunity to 9 be heard. Why should we have a separate status 10 for the people in the 48th Senate District or 11 the 51st Senate District because they have 12 chosen to elect a Democratic Senator and on 13 somebody's score card that is considered to be a 14 Republican district? Why are those people not 15 allowed to have legislation introduced on their 16 behalf, or why must it only come on the final 17 day of session after some personal toll has been 18 extracted by that Senator? These things are now 19 understood around the state. These abuses are 20 documented and they have become so prevalent and 21 so commonly used here that the public has lost 22 faith in us even when we do something that is 23 magnificent and in their best interest. When we 1 make sweeping changes, they're still suspect of 2 us because these old practices are still in 3 place. 4 We need to make the Senate less 5 political by disclosing which Senators were 6 offered sponsorship on a bill. I'm still 7 incredulous when I recall the time during my 8 first term that a group lobbying me came into my 9 office in utter outrage because my name was not 10 on a bill that would enhance salaries for child 11 care workers. I had campaigned on the issue 12 that we needed to recognize child care as an 13 important responsibility, that we had to do more 14 to help child care workers of this state earn a 15 living wage and most of the other Senators in my 16 neck of the woods had been rather disinterested 17 in that issue. Shortly after my election, there 18 was a furious race to see who could come up with 19 the best child care enhancement salary bill, 20 none of which ever came to me for co-sponsorship 21 and yet those same Senators who were so busy 22 breaking their arms patting themselves on the 23 back for having this wonderful idea, had the 1 audacity to tell the people who came and lobbied 2 them that "Senator Hoffmann's name isn't on 3 these bills any place. I guess she just doesn't 4 care." What an insult to the intelligence of 5 those people, and when they found out how badly 6 they were being treated, how this process was 7 being used, this manipulation of information to 8 them, they were determined to take those people 9 out of office. They wanted people that would be 10 honest and upfront with them on the way 11 legislation is enacted into law in this state, 12 and I know that you want the respect of the 13 people of this state. 14 I know, Senator Bruno, that you 15 don't want people to distrust our motives when 16 we introduce legislation, so I implore you as 17 Acting President, use your powers to create the 18 rest of these reforms that are necessary. 19 Virtually all of them can be done through rules 20 changes, a few of them should perhaps be in the 21 form of legislation, but you can do this, 22 Senator Bruno, and just as you're willing to 23 open your conference for discussion so that the 1 whole world can hear how these things are 2 analyzed, I'm sure that the Democrats are 3 willing to open their conference as well, but 4 more importantly, we should have these 5 discussions in the committee meetings. You 6 could order today -- it's in your power -- you 7 could order each of these committees to take up 8 all of the reform measures that I have 9 introduced that languish in those committees, 10 have languished, in some cases for years; you 11 could order them to sit and discuss the merits 12 of having open meetings as a standard practice. 13 You could sit and order them to have open dis 14 cussion on every one of those issues, including 15 a disclosure of the budget for the state Legis 16 lature, or at least for the Senate. You could 17 order them to establish a procedure whereby any 18 local bills are brought automatically to a 19 committee and not instead shelved because 20 they're introduced by a Democratic Senator. 21 That is within your power, Senator Bruno. 22 So I would urge you to use this 23 wonderful power that you have for the interest 1 of the taxpayers of this state and to do not 2 just one or two changes around the edges, but to 3 make the sweeping reforms that would once again 4 earn us the respect and the stature that we all 5 would fervently hope exist for the New York 6 State Senate. This is the Empire State. Let us 7 begin to redeem our state reputation in this 8 chamber under your leadership by bringing about 9 meaningful reform on behalf of the people of New 10 York State. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 12 reminds the members this debate began at 10:05. 13 Two hours will have expired at 12:05. There is 14 still one individual who wishes to speak. 15 Senator Dollinger. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I rise 17 because I'm concerned about the Journal and, 18 frankly, I can't wait to read the Journal 19 tomorrow to tell us what we did today because I 20 can't, quite frankly, understand everything that 21 I heard in this discussion about the Journal. 22 I feel a little bit like the guy 23 at a carnival sideshow with three little 1 thimbles in front of him, and he is told there's 2 a pea under one of the thimbles, and one of 3 these thimbles has got to have something inside 4 of it. 5 The first thimble is labeled, 6 "due process." It's been talked about today, 7 that old notion that Americans hold dear that 8 says that you are entitled to notice and an 9 opportunity to be heard before something happens 10 to you, affects your rights, affects your 11 responsibilities, that old due process thimble. 12 I hear the discussion today about 13 the Majority's interest in due process, and I 14 turn over the due process thimble and look 15 inside expecting to find that little pea, that 16 little kernel of substance; and what do I find? 17 I find that we didn't get the 24 hours notice of 18 these rule changes. I've never even been served 19 with these proposed rules changes. I've never 20 been given the opportunity. I guess I will be 21 given it later when we get through this 22 discussion about the Journal. But that old idea 23 of notice as the prerequisite of due process, I 1 turn over the due process thimble, there's 2 nothing there, so I know it's got to be in one 3 of the other two thimbles. 4 The second thimble is labeled 5 with that definition of "openness." Open up the 6 process. End this closed way that we've done 7 business, and I agree with Senator Hoffmann and 8 Senator Gold who have spoken before, about how 9 the process has been shielded from the public, 10 giving the perception that government isn't 11 doing credible things, but instead we're doing 12 something silently behind the public's back. I 13 take the openness thimble, and I flip that over 14 looking, expecting to find something that will 15 be of substance; and what do I find? Lo and 16 behold, I now had an opportunity to read the 17 proposed rule changes, which were not 18 distributed to me by the Majority but, instead 19 distributed -- in fact, all I have is a draft. 20 I don't even have the final rules changes, but 21 I've got a draft and I'm working off a draft. 22 Since it wasn't served to me yesterday, I'm not 23 sure whether it's the draft or the final. We'll 1 have a discussion about that when we do the 2 rules, but, anyway, I flip over that little pea, 3 that little thimble about openness; and what do 4 I find? 5 All the rules involve closing 6 things, closing up the process, cutting down on 7 our openness, restricting and gagging the 8 ability to speak. Senator Gold talked about 9 that right to speak at length. I don't need to 10 repeat it here, but it's obvious the substance 11 is not under the thimble described as openness. 12 There's only one thimble left, 13 and that's the thimble of leadership. I think 14 Senator Bruno and others have talked about the 15 importance of this body leading the way in the 16 state, opening up our books, opening up our 17 process. Senator Bruno has talked about opening 18 up the conferences. That's real leadership. I 19 support that. 20 So I flip over the "leadership" 21 thimble, expecting to find the real substance 22 there, and instead what are we told? Well, 23 these are all the gag rules that are in effect 1 in the Assembly. So we're simply going to 2 follow the Assembly down the road to cutting off 3 debate. We're simply going to follow. Senator 4 Bruno talks about Speaker Silver being his 5 teacher, his tutor, in this whole process of how 6 do we gag and restrict the debate about the 7 substantive issues that affect New Yorkers. 8 So I guess I'm one of those 9 little carnival guys who paid a dollar to figure 10 out whether he could guess which of the thimbles 11 has the pea underneath it, and all I see is a 12 lot of hand work moving the thimbles around with 13 great rapidity, but when you knock all three of 14 them over, you don't find a pea under any one of 15 them, not under the leadership one, not under 16 the openness one, not under the notion of due 17 process. 18 And what are you left with? You 19 are left with that sense that you paid your 20 dollar and you've been had. I hope that isn't 21 the case. That's a little bit how I feel after 22 this debate today. As I said, I can't wait to 23 read the Journal tomorrow. I took Senator 1 Leichter's copy of it, and I was astounded that 2 it seemed to contain lots of numbers, but not a 3 lot of anything else, and I'll be very 4 interested to read the Journal tomorrow to see 5 what the Journal says about this debate, and 6 maybe then I can find out whether there was 7 actually something under any one of those 8 thimbles. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Marchi. 11 SENATOR MARCHI: All right. I'll 12 be brief. There has been a number of good 13 statements made, I think, on both sides of the 14 aisle, and we are at a point where I have seen 15 milestones reached over the years. 16 I remember in 1961, 1960, there 17 was the question of allowing televised coverage 18 of commission meetings when they were being held 19 pursuant to a schedule outside the chamber, and 20 we were left to our own devices. I remember 21 that there was a great feeling on both sides of 22 the aisle that this might be the subject of 23 abuse, that there would be a culling of 1 embarrassing pictures maybe when we were not at 2 our best and we didn't have our proper profile 3 in focus. 4 The matter of fact was that -- I 5 remember there was Gabe Pressman that came in. 6 He was the first one to cover a hearing at 7 Suffern, New York, and it didn't take very 8 long. I mean after a couple of minutes people 9 were just oblivious that there was someone there 10 watching. They were more taken up with the 11 subject matter and they got into that. 12 The same thing happened with the 13 cameras and coverage of proceedings in the 14 chamber, and it took a long time before we were 15 able to get limited access but proper access 16 with a certain request for deportment which has 17 been honorably observed by those who were 18 televising over the years. 19 Same thing about coverage of the 20 committee meetings, how this would be an 21 opportunity for grandstanding. Nothing like 22 that ever happened. We had our committee 23 meetings, and whatever happened before continued 1 to happen, simply because of the absorption that 2 both sides of the question manifested. 3 You look at that press row. That 4 press row is empty. Gus Blivin over there 5 honors, in a very exemplary way, an old 6 tradition, and I'm not casting any aspersions on 7 other correspondents who should be there and 8 were there many years ago; but with the squawk 9 box, they have the sanctuary of being able to 10 listen, and they work very hard. I think that 11 they don't -- they don't appreciate the fact 12 that the presence of the press in the chamber on 13 us, us on them, in human dimensions and in 14 describing and feeling and capturing the spirit 15 of the thing is valuably served by the service 16 that Gus Blivin honorably continues to carry. 17 So we come to the present on the 18 question of coverage and the openness of confer 19 ences. The conferences are not dispositive of 20 anything. If I have conversations with my staff 21 and sometimes I have -- even a brand new staff, 22 I like to have general discussions; and if they 23 say, You are off your rocker, they don't say it 1 in so many words but there has been a very 2 active dialogue in my office even with the 3 latest newcomer or intern, and that's as it 4 should be. We all have something to learn from 5 the people that we associate with. 6 But that business of formulating 7 and reaching a position on issues is something 8 that is taken with the greatest freedom, much as 9 we do when we are in our own sanctuary, within 10 our own office and trying to elicit a point of 11 view that's reasonable. Senator Bruno has made 12 a very, very important -- I think it's historic 13 in national terms to invite this observance when 14 we are in the process of making up our mind and, 15 if the past is prologue, the answer probably is 16 that we're just going to be doing what we have 17 done traditionally, the pros and cons of the 18 positions that we take that we later manifest on 19 the floor, but not always because there are 20 exceptions. I have seen votes change. I have 21 seen them on both sides of the aisle change, but 22 this is a very, very historic point, and it 23 depends on the honor and also the willingness of 1 the members to be cooperative in -- but they 2 always have been in the past in almost any kind 3 of a test to do it honorably and with fairness. 4 So that it's a great opportunity, 5 I believe, that the Senator is putting it on a 6 trial basis because he hasn't suggested any 7 change or really sanctifying it in terms of 8 specifics, but he is inviting a process, 9 trusting on the honor and the reputation and the 10 feeling that this membership has for greater 11 openness, but let it never separate us from the 12 responsibility that we have as Majority and 13 Minority for carrying forth legislation; and 14 this can change. It's happened during my life 15 time and the same thing is true of the 16 Assembly. We have positions. People attach a 17 certain importance to the positions that we as 18 parties represent and, if it's not responsive to 19 popular need, sometimes changes come and are, 20 indeed, made. 21 So it's a great historic moment. 22 I don't think without surveying other states 23 that we're going to find, if any, anything like 1 this, and I certainly congratulate Senator Bruno 2 for being a pioneer in opening up the process. 3 He already gave indications of that in his 4 initial approaches to our discussions beginning 5 last year, and he has opened this process. He 6 has exhorted and obtained promptness in our 7 attendance, so that I think it has enriched our 8 processes immeasurably. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 motion is to approve yesterday's Journal. 11 All those in favor, signify by 12 saying aye. 13 (Response of "Aye.") 14 Opposed, nay. 15 (Response of "Nay.") 16 The Journal is approved. 17 Presentation of petitions. 18 Messages from the Assembly. 19 Messages from the Governor. 20 Reports of standing committees. 21 The Clerk will read. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright, 23 from the Committee on Alcoholism and Drug Abuse, 1 reports the following bills: 2 356, by Senator Levy, an act to 3 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation 4 to prohibiting disposition of DWI offenses; 5 357, by Senator Levy, an act to 6 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation 7 to limiting options; 8 379, by Senator Levy, an act to 9 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation 10 to suspension and restoration of a driver's 11 license; 12 394, by Senator Skelos, an act to 13 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation 14 to increasing the period of time during which a 15 driver's license is suspended; 16 973C, by Senator Levy, an act to 17 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation 18 to operation of a motor vehicle; 19 1745, by Senator Velella, an act 20 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law and the 21 Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to 22 authorizing the discovery of blood samples. 23 Senator Levy, from the Committee 1 on Transportation reports the following bills: 2 Senate Print 347, by Senator 3 Levy, an act to amend the New York City Charter 4 and the Public Authorities Law, in relation to 5 the inspection of the Metropolitan Transporta 6 tion Authority, reported with amendments; 7 623, by Senator Stafford, an act 8 to amend the Highway Law, in relation to 9 abandonment of certain town highways; 10 1075, by Senator Skelos, an act 11 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 12 relation to the enforcement of handicapped 13 parking regulations; 14 1181, by Senator Cook, an act to 15 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation 16 to allowing volunteer fire fighters; 17 1474, by Senator Volker, an act 18 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 19 relation to suspensions for failure to answer; 20 2429, by Senator Goodman, an act 21 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 22 relation to regulations of delivery bicycles; 23 4482, by Senator LaValle, an act 1 authorizing the village of Port Jefferson in the 2 town of Riverhead to authorize the county of 3 Suffolk to maintain traffic control devices; 4 4952, by Senator Marcellino, an 5 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 6 relation to special number plates. 7 Senator Rath, from the Committee 8 on Local Government, reports: 9 621, by Senator Stafford, an act 10 to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in relation 11 to the assessment of private forest lands; 12 624, by Senator Stafford, an act 13 to amend the County Law, in relation to 14 authorizing the county of Franklin to appoint up 15 to three public defenders; 16 688, by Senator Saland, an act to 17 amend the County Law, in relation to enhanced 18 emergency telephone system surcharge; 19 2010, by Senator Rath, an act to 20 amend the General Municipal Law, Chapter 708 of 21 the Laws of 1992, amending the General Municipal 22 Law; 23 4514, by Senator Tully, an act to 1 amend Chapter 972 of the Laws of 1962; 2 5372, by Senator LaValle, an act 3 to amend Chapter 311 of the Laws of 1920, 4 relating to the assessment and collection of 5 taxes in Suffolk County; 6 5803, by Senator Larkin, an act 7 to amend Chapter 708 of the laws of 1992, 8 amending the General Municipal Law. 9 All bills ordered directly for 10 third reading. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 12 objection, all bills will be directed to the 13 order of third reading. 14 Reports of select committees. 15 Communications and reports of 16 state officers. 17 Motions and resolutions. 18 Senator Bruno. 19 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 20 may we at this time adopt the Resolution 21 Calendar. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 motion is to adopt the Resolution Calendar on 1 the members' desks. 2 All those in favor, signify by 3 saying aye. 4 (Response of "Aye.") 5 Opposed, nay. 6 (There was no response.) 7 The Resolution Calendar is 8 adopted. 9 Senator Bruno, that brings us to 10 the calendar. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: May we at this 12 time, Mr. President, take up the 13 noncontroversial calendar. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will read the noncontroversial calendar. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 8, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 5754, an act in 18 relation to collective bargaining between the 19 Unified Court System and the New York State 20 Court Clerks Association. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 22 last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 3 roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll.) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 7 is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 9, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 602, an act 10 to amend the Public Health Law, in relation to 11 the Senator Tarky Lombardi Nursing Home Without 12 Walls Program. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 14 last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll.) 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Gold. 22 SENATOR GOLD: I want my name 23 called to explain my votes. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Gold to explain his vote. 3 SENATOR GOLD: This is Calendar 4 Number 9, is it? 5 Yes, Mr. President, the only 6 thing I want to say about this is, this is an 7 example of a piece of legislation where had the 8 sponsor consulted me and I think some other 9 members on this side of the aisle, we would have 10 been glad to cosponsor it. I know very well 11 some of the work of Senator Lombardi in this 12 area, and there are some programs which he 13 instituted which I think are really magnificent 14 when it comes to the level of care being given 15 to people and the economics behind that, and I 16 certainly am going to support this and, as I 17 say, I would have been proud to have been a 18 cosponsor. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Gold will be recorded in the affirmative. 21 Announce the results. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 2 is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 24, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 188, an act 5 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to sexual 6 performance by a child under the age of 18 7 years. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 9 last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect on the first day of 12 November. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll.) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 25, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 208B, an act 21 to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in relation 22 to prohibiting issuance of an order of 23 recognizance or bail. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 2 will read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 4 act shall take effect on the 30th day. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll.) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 10 is passed. 11 Senator Dollinger, why do you 12 rise? 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: To explain my 14 vote, Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Dollinger to explain his vote on Calendar Number 17 25. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 19 President, this is a bill that has particular 20 pertinence to the community which I represent in 21 which two individuals have been at liberty in 22 violation of bail orders granted after they were 23 convicted of sexual offenses, and I think this 1 is a good solid step in the right direction to 2 deal with a problem that has been, unfortunate 3 ly, very much on the minds of the people in 4 Monroe County, in two highly publicized 5 instances in which individuals had been 6 convicted, were set free on bail and 7 unfortunately then fled and led to, in one case, 8 a nationwide manhunt. 9 One of those individuals, Ronald 10 Vahue, is back in Monroe County in which he is 11 again before the courts. Had this law been in 12 effect, neither of those individuals would have 13 had the opportunity to be free on bail, and the 14 public would have been able to rest assured that 15 these convicted sex offenders would not be at 16 liberty to prey on others. 17 So I commend Senator Rath and 18 others for the sponsorship of this bill. I 19 would have liked to have been on it myself. I 20 still don't understand why in this house that's 21 the case that we're not, but this is a step in 22 the right direction to attending to a problem 23 that we face in Monroe County, and I think is 1 faced throughout the state, as well. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 3 recognizes Senator Maziarz to explain his vote. 4 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President, 5 to explain my vote. I would just like to follow 6 up a little bit, and also I'm a proud cosponsor 7 of this piece of legislation. 8 In Monroe County, as the previous 9 speaker pointed out, we had a couple of terrible 10 cases where, in one instance, an individual who 11 had previously been convicted of sexual offenses 12 involving a minor was convicted -- I believe it 13 was maybe a second time -- and was released 14 after conviction for -- actually, believe it or 15 not for a holiday weekend, for the 4th of July 16 weekend and, of course, he walked out of the 17 courtroom and very shortly disappeared for 18 several months. 19 Had this bill been passed last 20 year by the other house, that situation would 21 have rendered it impossible; and I just want to 22 commend Assemblyman Charley Nesbitt, who 23 introduced this bill in the other house, and 1 maybe send message to the leadership over there 2 that this is a good piece of legislation and 3 should soon be put on the calendar in the other 4 house. 5 Thank you, Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 7 the results. 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 10 is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 26, by Senator Sears, Senate Print 210D, an act 13 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 14 disseminating indecent material to minors 15 through any computer communication system. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 17 Read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This 19 act shall take effect on the first day of 20 November. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 22 Call the roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll.) 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 3 The bill is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 27, by Senator DiCarlo Senate, Senate Print 6 500A, an act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law 7 and the Penal Law, in relation to felony sex 8 offenses. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 10 Read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 14. This 12 act shall take effect on the first day of 13 November. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 15 Call the roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 19 The bill is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 28, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 522A, an act 22 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 23 increasing the penalties for custodial 1 interference. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 3 Read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 5 act shall take effect on the 15th day of 6 November. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 8 Call the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 12 The bill is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 30, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 1638, an 15 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 16 possessing an obscene sexual performance by a 17 child. 18 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 19 aside. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 21 Lay the bill aside. 22 SECRETARY: Calendar Number 32, 23 by Senator Volker, Senate Print 4262, an act to 1 amend the Criminal Procedure Law the Penal Law 2 and the Civil Practice Law and Rules, in 3 relation to assault against a child. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 5 One moment, please. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Please lay aside 7 Calendar Number 32 at the request of the 8 sponsor. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 10 The bill is laid aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 33, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5479A. 13 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 14 aside. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 16 The bill is laid aside. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 57, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 5434A, an 19 act to amend the State Finance Law, in relation 20 to establishing a transportation mobility 21 revolving loan fund. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it aside. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: I believe 3 Senator Dollinger asked that it be laid aside. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: I 5 apologize. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, I did, 7 Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 9 The bill is laid aside. 10 That completes the reading of the 11 noncontroversial calendar. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: Please take up 13 the controversial calendar. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 15 Secretary will read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 30, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 1638, an 18 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 19 possessing an obscene sexual performance by a 20 child. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 22 Senator Abate. 23 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. Would 1 Senator Johnson yield to a number of questions? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 3 Senator Johnson, will you yield? 4 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Senator. 5 SENATOR ABATE: I would like to 6 preface my questions by a brief remark. 7 Last year, I voted for this bill, 8 and I reread the bill this year, and I have a 9 number of concerns and questions and perhaps you 10 can clarify these concerns. 11 I want to make it clear you have 12 two sections that you wish to amend, Penal Law 13 sections, creating two new sections 263.11 and 14 263.16. It is my understanding, but I want 15 confirmation from you, that what would be 16 required by the prosecutor is to prove scienter, 17 and what I mean by scienter is that the 18 defendant knew that he or she, they were in 19 possession of the material and also knew that 20 the material was either pornographic or 21 indecent. 22 Under these proposed changes, I 23 make the assumption that the prosecutor must 1 prove not only knowing possession but the intent 2 to possess such material. That's how I read the 3 statute, and I wanted to seek clarification from 4 you. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 6 Senator Johnson. 7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Your question 8 is whether the person knew that they possessed 9 the material; is that it? 10 SENATOR ABATE: And that the 11 prosecutor would also have to prove that they 12 intended to possess and knew that this material 13 was pornographic. 14 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, Senator, 15 I don't know if I can answer your question 16 directly. I know that this material is already 17 illegal to produce and distribute and sell, and 18 so forth, and what we're saying in here is that 19 if a person is indicted for the possession of 20 this, apparently there's feeling that he did 21 know that he had it and that he knew that it was 22 illegal. 23 SENATOR ABATE: The difference in 1 standard between strict liability and one in 2 which the prosecutor has to prove that the 3 defendant knew he or she had possession and also 4 knew that the material itself was pornographic 5 or obscene, and there's language in the changes 6 that say that the -- "has to know the character 7 and content thereof." I make the assumption 8 that the burden of proof would be on the 9 prosecutor to prove scienter. If that's the 10 case, I just would like confirmation that that 11 language means that the burden of proof is on 12 the prosecutor. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 14 Senator Johnson. 15 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, I would 16 say, pretty obviously, that the case has to be 17 proven that they have this material and it's 18 obscene. They don't have to prove that they 19 know the age of the child. That's been debated 20 before, as you know. 21 SENATOR ABATE: So by the 22 language, clearly, that the prosecutor would 23 have to prove that the person possessed the 1 material. Would they also have to prove that 2 the individual knew that the material was 3 obscene? For instance, Senator Johnson, there 4 could be someone who buys a magazine and looks 5 at the cover and is not aware that in the middle 6 of that magazine there is a picture that may be 7 obscene or indecent, because the second part of 8 the statute change talks about indecent 9 material. Would the prosecutor have to prove 10 that the individual knew? 11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, we 12 debated in the past whether or not a painting by 13 Botticelli or something would be obscene, if you 14 would be arrested if you had that in your art 15 gallery. I think there is pretty well 16 established cases of what is pornography, what 17 is deviate sexual performance, obscene 18 performance. They've all been litigated 19 before. 20 I don't think many people possess 21 child pornography unknowingly and innocently 22 and indecently and if they do, indeed, no one's 23 aware of it. The fact -- we're trying to get at 1 the pedophiles who deliberately gather this 2 material, use it to show to other people, to 3 entice youngsters perhaps to come and see what 4 they have, to probably demonstrate to them, "See 5 the little boy; he does this; you can do this, 6 too." We're talking about people who abuse 7 this. We're not talking about innocent 8 possession of something that they're unaware 9 of. That person would never come before the 10 Court in the first place, Senator. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 12 Senator Abate, do you have another question? 13 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, and, 14 Senator, I am certainly sensitive to the issues 15 you raise, that children are among the most 16 vulnerable people we have in society. We have 17 to do everything we can to protect them. I'm 18 just trying to understand exactly what the 19 statute means. 20 Again, I voted for it last year, 21 but I'm not sure if I understand the language of 22 it. Clearly, the Courts have defined what is 23 obscene. What I'm asking is, what is the role 1 of the prosecutor in proving this crime? Is it 2 the fact that an individual buys a magazine, the 3 Court determines the material is obscene, and 4 they are not aware that in the centerfold 5 there's something obscene and the rest of the 6 magazine is absolutely harmless? Does the 7 prosecutor have to prove intent to possess this 8 material? And that's different from whether any 9 of us agree or want to banish obscene material 10 from the marketplace. 11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, all I 12 can tell you is that child pornography or 13 pornography in general is very well defined, and 14 I don't think one page in a 40-page thing would 15 necessarily indicate the purpose to buy, possess 16 and use pornography. 17 So, Senator, you can perhaps 18 debate more the finer points of the law because 19 you are a lawyer and you have been involved in 20 that. I'd say this bill is essentially modeled 21 on bills which have been done in 39 other states 22 based upon the decision in Osborn versus Ohio, 23 where they said just possession could be 1 illegal, and we're trying to do that. Making 2 possession of things that are already illegal to 3 be produced to be illegal to also possess and, 4 certainly, demonstrated use in a manner. 5 SENATOR ABATE: I guess - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 7 Senator Abate, are you asking Senator Johnson to 8 continue to yield? 9 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, thank you. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: Do 11 you continue to yield, Senator Johnson? 12 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 13 SENATOR ABATE: Then I will be 14 making the assumption, because I do not hear 15 otherwise from anyone on the floor, that the 16 bill does require the prosecutor to show 17 scienter, and I certainly welcome a response 18 from anyone on the floor if I'm reading the 19 statute incorrectly. 20 Senator Johnson, would you yield 21 to another question? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 23 Senator Johnson, you are being asked to yield 1 again. Do you yield to another question? 2 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Senator. 3 SENATOR ABATE: There are two 4 parts of the Penal Law change. The first part, 5 Penal Law 263.11, deals with possession of 6 obscene sexual performance. 7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Right. 8 SENATOR ABATE: The second 9 section, which is 263.16, deals with possession 10 of sexual performance. What is the difference? 11 One is obscene and the other is just sexual 12 performance. 13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, you 14 can look up Section 235 and that explains what 15 those terms mean, Senator. 16 SENATOR ABATE: I did read it, 17 and it's not clear. One deals with obscenity, 18 and one deals with indecency. 19 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, we're 20 not changing those sections of the law. 21 Whatever they say, they've said for years. All 22 we're saying here is, if somebody has this 23 material in their possession, under 230... - 1 under 236.16 or 236.11, et cetera, they will be 2 guilty of this violation of this law. 3 I might say, Senator, your 4 previous question about knowledge perhaps is 5 answered when it says here, "knowingly has in 6 his possession or control any obscene 7 performance", et cetera. It's knowing. It's 8 that he's aware that he has it, knows he's got 9 it, and he knows he's illegal, and he possesses 10 it. I think essentially this bill answers your 11 previous question. 12 SENATOR ABATE: Right. Good, and 13 I appreciate that clarification. 14 My other concern is around 15 whether this legislation is drafted too broadly, 16 or I hope, in the process of the discussion 17 between the Senate and the Assembly, some of 18 these issues will be refined and clarified 19 because I think we have a sense of what may or 20 may not be obscene but, the second section, I 21 don't know whether we give enough guidance 22 around what is indecent, and there are issues 23 around the Calvin Klein ads and other 1 provocative advertisements and pictures that it 2 may not be clear around what is indecent and 3 what should be prosecuted as an E felony. 4 Is there a reason that you 5 established the penalty of crime as an E felony 6 for both crimes, one being possession of 7 obscenity, the other being possession of 8 indecent material? 9 SENATOR JOHNSON: That's the way 10 we chose to draft the bill, Senator. 11 SENATOR ABATE: Pardon me? 12 SENATOR JOHNSON: That's what we 13 chose to put in the bill. 14 SENATOR ABATE: But was there a 15 reason not to differentiate - 16 SENATOR JOHNSON: No, well, 17 because - 18 SENATOR ABATE: -- between 19 possession of indecency and -- as compared to 20 possession of obscenity? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 22 Excuse me. Senator Abate, would you please 23 address the question through the Chair so that 1 we don't have an unruly debate here. 2 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. I 3 apologize, Chair, for not following the rules. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 5 Okay. Thank you. 6 SENATOR ABATE: We know how 7 important the rules are. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 9 Absolutely. 10 Senator Johnson, do you continue 11 to yield? 12 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Senator. 13 I think, Senator, if you want to study or revise 14 the entire section dealing with pornography and 15 child pornography, Senator, you are free to do 16 that. 17 As far as we're concerned child 18 pornography is evil in this society. That's why 19 the possession -- rather, the creation and 20 dissemination and sale of this material is 21 illegal now because it is a blight on society 22 which has to be dealt with. What we're saying 23 is under the present law these things are 1 produced, and so they legally should not be 2 possessed. That's the only way, Senator, to 3 stop -- what shall I say? -- the growth of this 4 industry, because if there is a threat that, if 5 you possess it, you may be prosecuted, then I 6 think perhaps they will be less interested in 7 buying it and less interested in people 8 producing something which people do not care to 9 buy or possess. 10 Senator, we have to deal with the 11 real issue of child pornography. You heard a 12 little discussion the other day -- I mean a 13 short while ago about a case, I think, in 14 Rochester. I think Mr. Dollinger mentioned 15 that, where a person was engaged in criminal 16 acts with children and this person was free on 17 bail and committed another act prior to being 18 sentenced, et cetera. 19 Now, these people get their 20 juices flowing with child pornography. That's 21 what we're attacking, Senator. We're attacking 22 the material which promotes the interest in this 23 and gets people deciding to engage in illegal 1 acts with children because they have been 2 stimulated by this type of material, Senator. 3 We're trying to stop that process. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 5 Senator Abate. 6 SENATOR ABATE: On the bill. Can 7 I be heard? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: On 9 the bill. 10 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. Senator 11 Johnson, I could not agree with you more. I 12 have a child who is 16 years of age. I have had 13 a lot of experience working with children. 14 Child pornography cannot be encouraged. It's 15 against the law to distribute, to disseminate, 16 to procure. 17 My concern is -- and I will 18 probably vote for this bill, but my concern is 19 that when this bill goes through the process of 20 negotiation, when the Assembly and Senate come 21 together, we look at the second section which 22 does not deal with obscene material but deals 23 with what we call "indecent material," and it's 1 not clear by any individual standards what that 2 means. Is it the Calvin Klein ad which we may 3 feel is provocative and not appropriate in terms 4 of advertising jeans? Is that enough? Do we 5 want people to be prosecuted because they had 6 that Calvin Klein ad in a magazine, or are we 7 talking about some other kind of material? 8 I want to ensure that the right 9 people are prosecuted, that children are not 10 abused, and that the law, as drafted -- and I 11 hope it's refined in some ways -- does exactly 12 what you want it to do. Child pornography, 13 involvement of children in such heinous 14 activity, should be in any way we can stopped 15 and prohibited in the future. 16 But I hope there will be some 17 debate and some discussion to see if we can more 18 carefully draft this bill, so when there are 19 legitimate First Amendment rights, we protect 20 them but we also don't allow the use of First 21 Amendment to continue child pornography. 22 So I will support this. I do 23 have some concerns. I hope these concerns will 1 be addressed before the bill is signed into law; 2 and, again, I do compliment the sponsor. This 3 is something that everyone in this chamber, 4 whether they vote for it or against it, knows 5 that it's a problem. It has to be stopped, but 6 we have to be very careful, when we draft 7 legislation, we, in fact, do what we intend, and 8 I'm glad to hear that no one has refuted the 9 notion that this bill would still put on the 10 prosecutor the responsibility to prove that the 11 defendant knew that he or she had possession and 12 that the person intended to possess obscene or 13 indecent material. I think that's a very 14 important element of this bill; and because 15 everyone seems clear that this is included in 16 the bill, I am much more comfortable in 17 supporting the bill. 18 Thank you very much. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 20 Senator Waldon. 21 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 22 much, Mr. President. 23 Would the learned Senator from - 1 I forgot which county you are from, Owen, but 2 out my way on Long Island -- please respond to a 3 question or two? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 5 Senator Johnson, will you yield? 6 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Mr. 7 President. 8 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, I 9 noticed in the bill it said "knowingly." Do you 10 know who Tracy Lord is? Have you ever heard the 11 name Tracy - 12 SENATOR JOHNSON: I think I 13 probably missed out on something, Senator. You 14 will have to explain it to me. 15 SENATOR WALDON: Beg pardon, sir. 16 SENATOR JOHNSON: I say I missed 17 out on any performances by this young lady who 18 you are familiar with. I don't know her. 19 SENATOR WALDON: Tracy Lord, as I 20 am advised, was a stellar pornographic star, and 21 she became such well before she was the age of 22 16. At age 18, she held a press conference and 23 announced her true age and threw the porno 1 industry into a tizzy; and I'm just wondering, 2 if someone were to pick up a film at a video 3 place today and it happened to have scenes of 4 Tracy Lord when she was 15 engaged in all kinds 5 of sexual activity, would this bill cause them 6 to be arrested and prosecuted? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 8 Senator Johnson. 9 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President. 10 Your question is -- rather, Senator Waldon, your 11 question is what? 12 SENATOR WALDON: My question is, 13 would someone in possession today of a film 14 depicting Tracy Lord engaged in sexual 15 activities at age 15 cause the person who is in 16 possession today to be prosecuted under this 17 bill? 18 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, of 19 course, we did have a previous discussion with 20 Senator Abate, where I referred to the 21 "knowingly" possess this, and there is an 22 affirmative defense that this must be 23 demonstrated by the evidence, et cetera. 1 So I would say, Mr. President, 2 that Section 263.20, et cetera, et cetera, 3 states there will be affirmative defense if a 4 defendant in good faith believed a person 5 appearing in a performance was 16 years or 6 older. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 9 Why do you rise, Senator Gold? 10 SENATOR GOLD: I would really 11 like to hear this. Senator Johnson, you are 12 saying this low. 13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Oh, really. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Could you say it a 15 little louder? 16 SENATOR JOHNSON: I said that 17 there is an affirmative defense. The question 18 of knowing is there, and Section 263.20, an 19 affirmative defense is set forth there, and it 20 states, "There will be an affirmative defense if 21 the defendant in good faith believed the person 22 to be over 16 years of age. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 1 Senator Waldon. 2 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 3 much, Mr. President. May I ask another 4 question? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: Do 6 you continue to yield, Senator Johnson? 7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 8 SENATOR WALDON: I thank you, 9 Senator Johnson. Senator, permit me to create a 10 hypothetical. Someone who goes to these stores 11 where they rent video films and sees a title 12 which intrigues him or her and rents the title 13 based on the intriguing words of that title, 14 something they found somehow exciting, and they 15 go home and they find out that that film has 16 scenes of children engaged in sexual activity of 17 some sort, and a zealous police officer happens 18 to visit that home, finds the person in 19 possession of that tape, and makes the arrest. 20 Is the affirmative defense available under those 21 circumstances? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 23 Senator Johnson. 1 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I 2 don't know how the police work where you are, 3 but I mean police don't usually walk into 4 somebody's house and look at their videotapes 5 and see what's on them and decide to haul them 6 into the nearest stationhouse, so that's a 7 pretty outrageous scenario, I'd say, Senator. 8 And the fact is that if that 9 happened he would be violating your right unless 10 he had a search warrant, in which case you were 11 probably a dealer, et cetera, et cetera. So you 12 are getting into far off realms of fantasy. 13 But I would say, generally 14 speaking, it still says knowingly; and if you 15 didn't know what was in it, I guess you would 16 have a pretty good defense, Senator. 17 SENATOR WALDON: Last question, 18 if I may, Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: Do 20 you continue to yield, Senator Johnson? 21 SENATOR WALDON: I preamble my 22 question - 23 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 1 Was that a yes? 2 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 4 Okay. Thank you. 5 SENATOR WALDON: I preamble my 6 question with this statement. I recognize what 7 police officers can and cannot do. That was put 8 into the question for a purpose. Let me ask 9 this. That is a convoluted question, Senator 10 Johnson. One, would written material describing 11 activities be governed by this bill, or is it 12 only if it is a tape or film governed by this 13 bill? 14 SENATOR JOHNSON: What was your 15 question, Senator? 16 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 17 if I may, I will repeat the question. Would 18 descriptions of this illicit sexual activity 19 involving people under the age of 16 in written 20 form be covered by what you're proposing or is 21 it only if it is in a pictorial representation 22 either on videotape or other forms of, in 23 quotes, "film"? 1 SENATOR JOHNSON: We did have 2 many books which were banned for years and 3 illegal. I think, generally speaking, written 4 descriptions are not illegal any more. But what 5 we're talking about here, and it says, "Any play 6 and motion picture, photograph or dance." 7 That's what a performance is defined as, 8 Senator. So I'd say that probably is not a 9 book. 10 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 11 much, Senator Johnson. I appreciate your 12 indulgence. 13 If I may, Mr. President, on the 14 bill. 15 I am one who feels that the 16 safety net for people who may innocently come 17 into possession of this type of material is too 18 small under this bill. I feel that those who 19 practice pedophilia should be put not only in 20 the jail but, if possible, under the jail. 21 However, the mere possession of such a 22 pictorialization, ergo, does not mean the person 23 is a pedophile or someone who supports and 1 practices that insidious activity, and I would 2 encourage my colleagues to recognize that this 3 is still America. 4 We still have the grace to treat 5 each other with respect in terms of our ability 6 to read and absorb whatever material for 7 artistic or other reasons in the privacy of our 8 homes. At least that is the opinion of Al 9 Waldon. 10 Thank you very much, Mr. 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 13 Senator Gold. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 15 Senator Johnson, I appreciated 16 your letting me interrupt, because I had a 17 question and, by speaking up, you answered that 18 question. I appreciate it. 19 But I just want to clarify a 20 couple things very quickly, if the Senator will 21 be kind enough to yield. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 23 Will you yield, Senator Johnson? 1 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Mr. 2 President. 3 SENATOR GOLD: You pointed out to 4 Senator Abate that there is an affirmative 5 defense in Section 263.20. But before we get to 6 an affirmative defense, is it your understanding 7 that as part of the prosecutor's case he or she 8 would have to prove that, in fact, the child was 9 under the age of 16 years? 10 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, I would 11 say yes, Senator. 12 SENATOR GOLD: If I may put it in 13 perspective, because some people in chambers are 14 not lawyers. When a judge charges a jury, a 15 judge usually sets up elements of the crime and, 16 as you have pointed out, you have in here that 17 it must be, for example, an obscene sexual 18 performance by a child, must be -- they would - 19 knowing the character and contents thereof. So, 20 for example, if someone bought a magazine and 21 hadn't even opened it up you couldn't arrest 22 them, I assume, walking away if they didn't know 23 what was inside the magazine. 1 But would a judge, in your 2 opinion, have to charge a jury that they, in 3 fact, must find that any child in the picture 4 was in fact less than 16 as an element of the 5 crime? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 7 Senator Johnson. 8 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, you 9 could probably explain that better than I 10 because I'm not familiar with the procedure of 11 judges charging, but I would say that - 12 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, that is an 13 element. 14 SENATOR JOHNSON: -- if they 15 didn't do that, then I think there'd probably be 16 a mistrial or certainly some error committed by 17 the judge which would not result in a 18 conviction. 19 SENATOR GOLD: All right. 20 Senator, let me ask you this question. My 21 understanding -- and please correct me if I'm 22 wrong -- is that it is a crime in New York to 23 make pornographic material with children. I 1 believe it's a crime in New York to sell 2 pornographic material that is made by children. 3 I believe it is a crime to possess it with the 4 intent to sell. I think it's a crime to 5 distribute. Am I correct? All these things are 6 crimes, am I right? 7 SENATOR JOHNSON: That's correct. 8 SENATOR GOLD: I think it's a 9 crime to induce children into this. 10 So what I'm trying to figure out, 11 then, Senator, is what, if anything, we're doing 12 for the world with this particular bill which I 13 have opposed in the past, and that's where I'm 14 hung up. 15 Now, Senator Waldon mentioned a 16 specific person who I don't know, but I do know 17 that a few years back -- and this could be 15, 18 20 years back -- there was a Miss America winner 19 who was disqualified because they found out that 20 she had been married when, I think, she was 21 about 16. I don't remember whether she had a 22 child or not. I don't think so, but had been 23 divorced. Do you remember that incident at 1 all? 2 SENATOR JOHNSON: I'm not 3 familiar with that, Senator. 4 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Well, 5 the reason I bring it up, Senator, is this. You 6 have someone who has material that comes into 7 their possession, let's say, through an estate, 8 I don't know. They take possession of books, 9 and there are pictures in that book that you 10 might believe are pornographic and there are 11 children in the book, pictures in the book. We 12 don't know who the children are. 13 Would it be your opinion that is 14 something that is not prosecutable since the 15 prosecutor, not knowing who the child is, could 16 not prove the age of the child? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 18 Senator Johnson. 19 SENATOR JOHNSON: We're not 20 talking about family albums with pictures of 21 children in them, Senator. We're talking about 22 sexual performances by children which are, I 23 think, not in a typical family album; and, 1 despite that, unless someone had knowledge of 2 that, obviously, the person would not be 3 arrested and indicted, convicted or anything. 4 Nevertheless, I think that person's obligation 5 is not to -- under this law is not to possess 6 these things. Many people possess things they 7 shouldn't have, but until it becomes an overt 8 act that brings it to someone's attention, of 9 course, nothing happens. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT DEFRANCISCO: 11 Senator Gold. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Senator, if 13 you will yield to a question. 14 See, Senator, I think you're 15 right on target. If there is an overt act, I 16 don't think you need your law. If you have a 17 person who is a pedophile trying to induce a 18 youngster to do something, I think that's a 19 crime already. If you have someone who tries to 20 sell it, it's a crime already. 21 All your law does, so we keep it 22 clear, is say that in a situation where somebody 23 were to possess -- if your law were on the books 1 right now, if there was a book in someone's 2 house and somebody wanted to get that person and 3 call the police to come to the house for a book 4 that's just sitting on a shelf, under your law, 5 that person has now committed a crime, even 6 though there would be no evidence in that case 7 of the person being a pedophile. There would be 8 no evidence in that case that the person tried 9 to induce any youngster to sell, make, or do 10 anything. Isn't that true, Senator? 11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I 12 guess you could create any scenario which you 13 choose to do. I think it's unlikely, Senator, 14 that that person would be convicted of anything 15 under those circumstances. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, 17 what I'm curious of then so that I understand it 18 -- and as I say, I voted against this bill in 19 the past. I have heard Senator Abate whom I 20 have a great respect for and other people here 21 who I have a great respect for who have voted 22 for this, and I'm trying to say to myself, 23 Senator, can you give me what is in your mind 1 the example of how this will help prosecutors 2 because there is a situation on the books today 3 that is not prosecutable but that this will make 4 it prosecutable? In other words, what do you 5 envision? You certainly don't envision that 6 they are going to indict a book store seller 7 who's selling it, because he's selling it. It's 8 against the law. They're not going to use it 9 against someone who's making it, it's against 10 the law. They're not going to use it against 11 someone distributing it. 12 So who is out there right now 13 that is a danger to society that this bill is 14 going to prosecute. That's what I'm trying to 15 find out. 16 SENATOR JOHNSON: I don't know if 17 my advice is any better than my own thoughts, 18 but let me just say this, Senator, that it is my 19 opinion that if you make the possession of 20 something illegal that would to some extent 21 diminish the people in the act of selling it 22 because they wouldn't have the market which is 23 presently out there to encourage the production 1 and sale of these products, and I think that's 2 significant, Senator, in an attempt to dry it up 3 to make the possession illegal, just as we do 4 with drugs to make them illegal because they are 5 harmful to society -- to make the possession 6 illegal so some people prosecuted for possession 7 may not be interested in buying any shortly 8 thereafter since they have already paid a 9 penalty, in a sense, for possessing those drugs, 10 and so forth. 11 So I think we have to try to dry 12 up the market for pornography just as we have 13 for drugs, Senator, and this bill will help to 14 achieve that end. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Senator Leichter, why do you rise? 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 18 I would like to ask Senator Johnson a question. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Senator Johnson, do you yield for a question? 21 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator Johnson yields. 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: We have had 2 this bill before us before, and you and I 3 debated the very issue that I want to ask you a 4 question on. I just want to preface it by 5 saying that like Senator Abate, like all the 6 other members of this chamber, certainly you, I 7 think all of us deplore child pornography. We 8 certainly deplore exploitation of people under 9 the age of 16 for sexual purposes, and I can see 10 some merit in saying, well, if we punish the 11 knowing possession of child pornography material 12 that that will dry up the demand for that 13 material. I don't know how great the demand 14 is. But, obviously, there's some demand, and 15 that's what you are trying to do. I have no 16 problem with that. 17 What I and Senator Gold in other 18 years and Senator Waldon and others have been 19 concerned about, and something that I think that 20 Senator Abate also asked you on, and you gave a 21 clearer answer today than I think you did on 22 those other occasions that we debated it, and 23 that has to do with the scienter, knowing. 1 Now, your bill makes it clear 2 that you have to know the contents. What has 3 always bothered me is, do you have to know that 4 this was a child? And, some years you seem to 5 say, Well, you do, and we'd say, "Well, put it 6 in the bill," and you'd say, Well, I don't have 7 to put it in the bill; everybody knows it. 8 But, today, when Senator Abate 9 talked to you about what the prosecutor has to 10 prove, I think I heard you say -- and that's 11 really my question to you, whether I heard 12 correctly. I think I heard you say that the 13 prosecutor does not have to prove that the 14 person knew that the performer in this 15 pornographic video, whatever it is, was an 16 infant -- not an infant -- was a minor. Did I 17 understand you correctly? 18 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, you 19 know, we have debated this before, as you said, 20 and you've always approached it from the other 21 side, saying that this bill should say that the 22 person who possessed the material knew that that 23 person was under 16. You know, they don't have 1 any way of knowing. It's a judgment call, 2 almost, isn't it? 3 I mean a child is pretty 4 obviously a child if its on a bear rug and it's 5 lying on the rug, and it's less than a year 6 old. But what I'm saying here is they should 7 have known this child was under 16. We don't 8 have to prove that they knew that the child was 9 under 16, but they should have known that there 10 was a child under 16. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: But, Senator, 12 that I must tell you really disturbs me because, 13 as we know, people develop differently. Some 14 develop very quickly. Some develop very 15 slowly. You are saying, then, that someone who 16 goes in to or buys a video, a sexual X rated 17 video, and then without any intention of 18 consuming child pornography, but it later turns 19 out that that performer was 15-1/2, now, that 20 person is subject to a Class E felony, and 21 that's why we have asked you to put in there 22 that the possession with knowing the contents 23 also includes knowing that this was a minor. 1 And if you put that in, I will 2 support the bill. If you don't put it in, then 3 I think that it's a terrible loophole that is 4 going to catch people who I don't think you 5 intend to subject to these penalties. 6 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, Senator, 7 all I can tell you is that there is an 8 affirmative defense, which I mentioned earlier 9 in debating it with Senator Gold, that you were 10 unaware this was a minor under 16 years of age. 11 I mean I think that's pretty clear that you do 12 have a defense in that case. Fifteen, sixteen, 13 you're right, sometimes you couldn't tell the 14 difference, pretty obviously, but the fact is 15 that you do have a defense if that was the 16 case. But child pornography seems to be a 17 separate category, Senator, which is principally 18 child pornography and not just one shot of 19 children and other types of pornographic 20 materials, and so forth. 21 So, Senator, I would say that you 22 do have a defense right now, and your previous 23 presentations on this bill over the past five 1 years have said you've got to prove that person 2 knew that person was under 16. There is no way 3 the prosecutor can prove that this person knew 4 the age of this child. They do not know this 5 child. They have no way to know that it's under 6 16 and they deliberately got it if it's under 7 16, but they should have perhaps, you know. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect on the first day of 13 November. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Call the roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 18 the negative on Calendar Number 30 are Senators 19 Leichter, Montgomery, Paterson, Santia... 20 Waldon. Ayes 51. Nays 4. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 22 bill is passed. 23 Secretary will read. 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 33, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5479A, an 3 act to enact the Persistent Child Sexual 4 Predator Act and to amend the Penal Law. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect on the first day of 9 November. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: An 11 explanation has been called for. 12 Senator Volker. 13 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 14 this bill, as was read, is known as the 15 Persistent Child Sexual Predator Act. This 16 bill, which is a Governor's program bill, came 17 down last year from the Governor. We passed it, 18 I believe, virtually unanimously right at the 19 end of the session. At the time of the debate, 20 Senator Gold and Senator Leichter pointed out to 21 me in the debate that there was a problem with 22 the bill. We discussed it. The problem was 23 that there was a section that would include a 1 misdemeanor as one of the so-called predicate 2 felonies, and so forth. 3 So we looked at it, and we 4 discussed it at the time and, in the meantime, 5 after thinking about it, we decided that Senator 6 Gold and Senator Leichter were right and 7 eliminated those provisions from the bill, and 8 that is the amendment that -- I know, Senator 9 Skelos, you are probably going to beat on me 10 after this is over, but, well, we felt, "What 11 the heck," they were right so, you know. 12 So, anyways, we amended the bill, 13 and that's the bill that's - 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator Volker. 16 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Are 18 you suggesting that, as a result of open debate 19 in this chamber, decisions were revised and 20 changed and we're not lockstepped? 21 SENATOR GOLD: Recommit. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Thank you. 1 (Laughter.) 2 SENATOR VOLKER: That's a very 3 good characterization, one that I was thinking 4 about addressing, but you are absolutely right, 5 Mr. President. As we always try to do in the 6 Codes Committee, we always try to listen to our 7 colleagues whenever possible whether they are 8 Democrats, Republicans or otherwise, and that's 9 how the bill was amended. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 11 Will Senator Volker yield for a very quick 12 question? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Senator Gold. 15 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Will you accept 17 nomination as benevolent dictator? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: I 19 think the Chair should rule that question as not 20 germane. 21 SENATOR VOLKER: My wife asked me 22 that question several weeks ago... 23 What this provides is that, if a 1 person is charged with an offense under 7006 of 2 the Penal Law which relates to sex abuse against 3 children under 14 years old and is convicted of 4 a second offense under that section, felony 5 child abuse, children under 14 years old, that 6 person would be sentenced to what amounts to a 7 life term -- an A1 felony, which is 15 to 25 to 8 life -- and, in other words, if the judge saw 9 so, that person actually could be in jail for an 10 absolutely minimum of 25 years and for a 11 maximum, obviously, of life; and that's 12 basically what this bill provides, very simply. 13 Any questions? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator Oppenheimer. 16 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: This is not 17 a question. I just want to congratulate - 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Senator Oppenheimer, you want to ask Senator 20 Volker a question on the bill? 21 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: You 23 want to speak on it? 1 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I'm sorry. 2 SENATOR VOLKER: No, go ahead. 3 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I just want 4 to congratulate - 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Senator Oppenheimer, you have the floor on the 7 bill. 8 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thanks. I 9 just want to congratulate Senator Volker and 10 hope that we will be able to move ahead with 11 this. The idea of requiring a child, a 12 youngster, to try to recall the dates, the 13 times, of when the sexual abuse took place is 14 simply inhuman, and this bill will rectify that, 15 and I hope we will get speedy endorsement, both 16 houses. 17 Thank you. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Thank you, Senator. 20 Senator Abate. 21 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, I would just 22 like to make a comment on the bill. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 1 Senator Abate on the bill. 2 SENATOR ABATE: I, too, last year 3 raised the issue that I could support the bill 4 if there was an exclusion of the language 5 detailing misdemeanors. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, 7 point of information. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Senator Gold. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Senator 11 Abate did not debate two. She debated one, and 12 then I think we became two. 13 SENATOR ABATE: Thank you for the 14 recognition of my colleagues. 15 But what I'm here is not to talk 16 about what I did or did not do last year. It is 17 to compliment again Senator Volker and his 18 staff, because when we raised the issue on the 19 floor and followed up thereafter, they were 20 absolutely willing to take a look at that bill, 21 give full consideration what we as Minority 22 members of this chamber had to say. That's the 23 way this process should work. 1 That's the way, when we look at 2 bills, if we give full consideration, substant 3 ive debate, and we don't put labels because 4 we're Democrats, our opinions should not be held 5 seriously. Again, you make this chamber a more 6 meaningful chamber, and I compliment the Senator 7 again for his participation and willingness to 8 look at the merits of an issue. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Senator Gold, why do you rise? 11 SENATOR GOLD: I am not going to 12 echo the words of Senator Abate because if any 13 more of us say nice things about Senator Volker 14 they will take away his committee chairmanship. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Read the last section on that high note. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect on the first day of 19 November. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Call the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 2 bill is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 57, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 5434A, an 5 act to amend the State Finance Law. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Senator Skelos. Excuse me. Senator Skelos? 8 I'm sorry. Finish reading the 9 bill first, I'm sorry. 10 THE SECRETARY: -- an act in 11 relation to establishing a transportation 12 mobility revolving loan fund and making an 13 appropriation therefor. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator Skelos. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there a 17 message of appropriation at the desk? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Yes, there is, sir. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Move to accept. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Motion to accept the message of appropriation. 23 All in favor, say aye. 1 (Response of "Aye.") 2 All opposed. 3 (There was no response.) 4 The ayes have it. The message is 5 accepted. 6 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explanation. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Of 8 the message or of the bill? 9 Senator Maziarz. 10 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. 12 Mr. President, this bill is a 13 Governor's initiative. It creates a 14 transportation mobility revolving loan fund to 15 be funded with $5 million in federal funds for 16 use in the Niagara Frontier Region of New York. 17 The money is to be utilized for 18 advanced technology mobility improvements in 19 international transportation in the Niagara 20 Frontier Region of New York State and the 21 Niagara Region of Ontario, Canada. The details 22 of this were outlined in an application 23 submitted by the DOT, and the grant was awarded 1 by the Federal Highway Administration in April 2 of 1994. 3 This legislation is necessary in 4 order to access those federal funds. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if 6 you would kindly yield. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Senator Maziarz, do you yield to a question? 9 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Senator Leichter. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Do you know 13 under what provision of the Federal Highway Law 14 this money is coming to New York? As I gather, 15 it's monies that's being provided by the federal 16 government, and what we're doing by this bill is 17 making it available to the Niagara Frontier, 18 whatever the name of the -- it is the Niagara 19 Frontier Authority; right? 20 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. Now, my 22 question is under what provision of the federal 23 law is this money coming into New York State? 1 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I don't know 2 the exact provision of the federal law, but it's 3 a provision to increase the mobility of traffic 4 at international border crossings. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. Now, is 6 the receipt of this money by the state and its 7 allocation, as we're doing by this bill, does 8 this diminish other transportation money that 9 we're getting from the federal government? 10 SENATOR MAZIARZ: No, it does 11 not, Senator. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Good. Thank 13 you. 14 SENATOR MAZIARZ: You're welcome. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Senator Dollinger. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Will Senator 18 Maziarz yield to a question, Mr. President? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Senator Maziarz, do you yield? 21 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes, Mr. 22 President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 1 Senator yields. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The bill 3 provides on page 2 that the Commissioner of 4 Transportation shall have the power to make 5 loans from this fund; is that correct? 6 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes, that is 7 correct. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Are there 9 currently loans in place for which these funds 10 are specifically earmarked? I just want to make 11 sure I understand it. This is a sum of money 12 that comes from the federal government; the 13 Department of Transportation makes it 14 available. Will they put out RFPs, solicit 15 projects for this international mobility fund? 16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes. None of 17 that has been done yet, Senator. There is a 18 memorandum of understanding subject to the 19 approval of this legislation of this memorandum 20 of understanding on allocating these funds. 21 It's been signed by the Ministry of 22 Transportation of Ontario, the New York State 23 Department of Transportation, the New York State 1 Thruway Authority, the Niagara Frontier 2 Transportation Authority, the Buffalo and Fort 3 Erie Peace Bridge Authority, the Niagara Falls 4 Bridge Commission, the Erie County Executive and 5 the Erie County Legislature. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 7 through you, Mr. President. Just so I 8 understand it. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Senator Maziarz, do you yield to another 11 question? 12 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes, I do. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: All of those 14 agencies have agreed to establish this fund, and 15 then they will handle the process of - 16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: - 18 applications and disbursements? 19 SENATOR MAZIARZ: That's correct, 20 Senator. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: One final 22 question, if the sponsor will yield. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 1 yields. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is the 3 government of the Province of Ontario also 4 putting money into this fund? 5 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I don't know 6 the answer to that question, Senator. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 8 Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Call the roll, please. 15 (The Secretary called the roll.) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 18 bill is passed. 19 Senator Stachowski. 20 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Just to 21 explain my vote. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator Stachowski to explain his vote. 1 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: I'm voting 2 in support of this bill. It's a bill that 3 brings to a conclusion, at least from New York 4 State's perspective, what is necessary to expend 5 some federal dollars that were made available by 6 the Secretary of Transportation, who had 7 personally came to Buffalo to meet with the 8 Western New York delegation, which, I think, was 9 before Senator Maziarz took office, and he met 10 with not only the Western New York state 11 representatives but also local officials, 12 talking about money to be made available to 13 speed up border crossings, and I think that's 14 the pot of money that, quite possibly, was 15 identified for Senator Leichter where this money 16 is coming from, which federal pot. 17 For those reasons, I'm voting in 18 support of this bill. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Thank you, Senator. 21 The bill is passed. 22 Senator Skelos. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 1 with the consent of the Minority, we're going to 2 just go back to motions so we can make an 3 amendment. 4 On page number 6, I offer the 5 following amendment to Calendar Number 29, 6 Senate Print 654A, and ask that said bill retain 7 its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Amendments are received. It will be done. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: If we could just 11 stand at ease for a moment. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Senate will be at ease. 14 (The Senate was at ease briefly.) 15 Senator Bruno, we have completed 16 the controversial calendar. 17 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 18 President. I offer up the following resolution 19 amending the Senate rules which were handed up 20 yesterday and ask that the title be read and 21 move for their immediate adoption. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Secretary will read. 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno, 2 from the Committee on Rules, reports the 3 following resolution: 4 Senate Resolution 2205, 5 amending: 6 Section 6, of Rule II of the 7 Senate rules, in relation to the powers of the 8 Temporary President; 9 Section 1 of Rule III of such 10 rules, in relation to powers of the presiding 11 officer; 12 Rule V of such rules, in relation 13 to the hours in session; 14 Section 8 of Rule V of such 15 rules, in relation to a motion for the previous 16 question; 17 Subdivision (a) of Section 9 of 18 Rule V of such rules, in relation to 19 reconsideration of bills; 20 Sections 1, 2, 3 and 4 of Rule VI 21 of such rules, in relation to introduction, 22 sponsorship, printing and forms of bills; 23 Subdivisions (a) and (e) of 1 Section 9 of Rule VI of such rules, in relation 2 to introduction of resolutions on Thursdays and 3 Fridays and resolutions recalling bills; 4 Section 1 of Rule VII of such 5 rules, in relation to membership of standing 6 committees; 7 Paragraph 1 of Subdivision (a) of 8 Section 3 of Rule VII of such rules, in relation 9 to attendance of members at committee meetings; 10 Subdivision (b) of Section 5 of 11 Rule VII of such rules, in relation to reports 12 of a committee membership; 13 Subdivision (a) of Section 3 of 14 Rule VIII of such rules, in relation to the 15 Third Reading Calendar; 16 Subdivisions (a) and (b) of 17 Section 4 of Rule VIII of such rules, in 18 relation to the filing of amendments; 19 Section 6 of Rule VIII of such 20 rules, in relation to final passage of bills; 21 Section 8 of Rule VIII of such 22 rules, in relation to recall of bills; 23 Subdivision (f) of Section 2 of 1 Rule IX of such rules, in relation to presence 2 of a quorum; 3 Section 3 of Rule IX of such 4 rules, in relation to debate on bills; 5 Subdivision (b) of Section 4 of 6 Rule IX of such rules, in relation to statements 7 by Senators; 8 Subdivision (g) of Section 2 of 9 Rule X of such rules, in relation to admission 10 to the floor of the Senate; 11 Section 1 of Rule XI of such 12 rules, in relation to suspension of rules; 13 Rule XIII of such rules, in 14 relation to expenditure reporting; and 15 Rule XIV of such rules, in 16 relation to freedom of information and to repeal 17 Section 3 of Rule X of such rules relating to 18 Freedom of Information. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Paterson. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 22 might we indulge the Majority for a brief 23 explanation of the significant rule changes that 1 will go into effect? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Bruno, Senator Paterson has requested an 4 explanation of the proposed rule changes. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. 7 Mr. President, this morning we 8 had a rather exhaustive debate as related to the 9 adoption of the Journal and during that debate, 10 we covered a lot of what we might have covered 11 normally at this time. 12 Why are these rules before us for 13 a vote? Bottom line, to create a more orderly 14 process in this chamber so that we can more 15 efficiently and more effectively do the work 16 that we are elected to do in this chamber. 17 I commented this morning, Mr. 18 President, that there isn't anything that we're 19 doing here in this chamber that hasn't already 20 been adopted in the other chamber. Now, does 21 that mean that everything they do we do and what 22 we do they do? Not necessarily. But we should 23 take the best of what they do and what we do and 1 maybe exchange thoughts and ideas. 2 I also commented, and will again, 3 that these rules changes are all part of 4 Robert's Rules of Order, and also part of 5 Mason's legislative rules of order and 6 two-thirds of the 99 legislative bodies in the 7 United States function by Mason's rules, and 8 Senator Paterson in his comments talked about 9 the potential of calling the previous question, 10 which is one of the rule changes before us, in 11 that it was perceived to be a gag rule. 12 That's not the case. Let me read 13 from Mason's legislative manual. "There is no 14 more reason for requiring a two-thirds vote to 15 order the previous question than to require a 16 similar vote in deciding the main question, and 17 such a requirement is at variance with the basic 18 principle of majority rule." 19 So we're talking about Mason's, 20 Robert's, rules of order, pertaining to majority 21 rule. Now, there are two pages worth of rule 22 changes. There are three or four that really 23 are of consequence to the people in this 1 chamber. One of them has to do with germane 2 ness of debate, and germaneness of debate is 3 exactly that. The Chair will have a 4 responsibility to make a judgment on whether 5 debate is germane to the issue before the 6 floor. Now, that is common sense. That is good 7 judgment; that is good business. 8 Another rules change talks about 9 not being able to single out any member on the 10 floor, asking them questions that's unrelated to 11 what they are involved in or prepared to talk 12 about; and, Mr. President, the necessity of this 13 in the Assembly as well as here is that some 14 people -- no one in this room, but some people 15 would single out a member, maybe somebody new to 16 the chamber, ask them what they would think 17 would be embarrassing questions on a subject 18 that they would have no reason to know anything 19 about other than how they want to vote, by way 20 of explanation and detail. So the Chair would 21 make a ruling that a person was not required to 22 answer. 23 Calling the previous question is 1 an accepted procedure in any house that meets, 2 convenes and debates, and it is part of almost 3 any parliamentary procedure. Basically, what it 4 says, while you're debating, the leaders of 5 Minority or Majority or their designee -- and 6 that's important to understand; that is, the 7 leaders, both sides of the aisle or their 8 designee, can call the previous question, and 9 that stops debate on that particular issue. 10 Now, that is probably -- and I know Senator Gold 11 was talking about that primarily, I think, this 12 morning because that sounds heavy. It sounds as 13 if someone wants to suppress discussion. It's 14 not the case. It wasn't the case in the 15 Assembly when they adopted that rule, and it 16 isn't the case in this house. Not at all. 17 And let me remind my colleagues 18 that we had adopted a rule a lot of years ago - 19 I believe it was a lot of years ago -- that the 20 leader in this chamber has the responsibility 21 and privilege to star a bill. Any bill that's 22 on this calendar, the leader can star and there 23 will be no debate on that bill on this floor 1 unless the star is removed, and then the debate 2 takes place 24 hours later. Now, that's the 3 prerogative of this chamber adopted by the 4 Majority members in this chamber to give the 5 leader some control over the proceedings in this 6 chamber. 7 Mr. President, I have not once in 8 the year that I have served as leader invoked 9 that rule in this house. Not once have I 10 starred a bill. We might have asked one of our 11 colleagues if they would star the bill, and they 12 usually do, but never once have I just said 13 "Star the bill" without the sponsor being 14 involved in that decision. Now, that's been my 15 style. That's the way I function, and that's 16 the way I operate, and that's the way I would 17 continue to function and operate. 18 So for my colleagues, who I know 19 they are being good natured and well intention 20 ed, who this morning talked about benevolent 21 dictatorship and that kind of thing, and I know 22 you do it smilingly, but as Senator Paterson 23 well pointed out that no matter how you smile 1 the message is still the same, and it's a 2 negative message, and it is not really 3 appropriate to the occasion, because what we're 4 doing is truly intended to help this body in the 5 process of governing be more responsive to the 6 people, more open. 7 When I talk about openness, Mr. 8 President, I believe at about 1:00 o'clock today 9 -- and I believe I'm correct -- we issued a 10 joint release with the Speaker of the Assembly 11 that we will have full expenditure review of the 12 Senate and the Assembly budgets made public. We 13 released that together today. I had committed 14 when I became leader that that would happen for 15 the first time in my knowledge in the history of 16 the Legislature, where we will have full and 17 open public expenditure review. That means 18 every line item, members, how you spend your 19 money on both sides of the aisle. The Majority 20 and how we spend our money, the Minority and how 21 you spend your money, will be open to the 22 public. 23 Now, we weren't dragged kicking 1 and screaming, the Speaker and I, his 2 colleagues, our colleagues, to do that. We have 3 done that because we feel that open and 4 responsive government is better government. 5 And so what we're doing here 6 today is just a continuation, Mr. President, of 7 our being responsive to the needs of the people 8 of this state who elect us to represent them, 9 and I want to assure my colleagues that there 10 will be none of the concerns that were 11 represented here this morning, demonstrated in 12 this chamber, because we exchanged greetings at 13 the beginning of this session, Senator Paterson, 14 Senator Connor, and we made a decision on behalf 15 of the people of this state that we would go 16 forward together, hand in hand, and govern and 17 do things in a collegial, good-natured, 18 representative way, and we are doing that, and 19 this process of disagreeing is a healthy 20 process. That's what governing is all about. 21 Working together doesn't mean 22 that you have to agree on everything, but we are 23 debating an issue that is of great consequence 1 and we are doing that together. We will 2 disagree on this issue and we will disagree on 3 other issues, but we will agree more times than 4 not; and after this exhaustive debate, we will 5 come to some conclusions and we will vote, and 6 rest assured that the people of this state in 7 the great majority will be better served by what 8 we do here today. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Paterson. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 12 President. Would the distinguished Majority 13 Leader please yield for a question? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Bruno, do you yield? 16 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 17 President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 yields. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 21 Senator Bruno, first of all, I'm glad that you 22 are aware that we wanted to clear up any of the 23 personality or character references that are 1 diminishing from this debate, and we're just 2 going to try to stick to the issues. The issue 3 I would like to address to you is the one about 4 the move for closure of debate. 5 At the time that you raised it a 6 couple of hours ago, you cited Robert's Rules of 7 Order. Now you've cited Mason's Manual of 8 Legislative Procedure, a document that I would 9 suggest to you is not used very much in 10 accordance with legislative procedures in the 11 predominant numbers of legislative bodies around 12 the country. But since you first raised 13 Robert's Rules of Order, my statement was that 14 Robert's Rules of Order does raise the issue of 15 the move for closure of debate and says, if I 16 may quote it, that it is "sometimes referred to 17 as the gag rule". That wasn't my attempt to be 18 shrill. That is what is said in Robert's Rules, 19 and says that, actually, the simple majority 20 should not be the amount that would deem to be 21 necessary to close debate; that that should be 22 by a greater margin than that. That's why I 23 pointed that out to you. 1 Now, I will look at Mason's Rules 2 of Legislative Procedure, but I'm trying to 3 suggest to you that the United States Senate 4 does not have this as a rule because of the fact 5 that it is perceived -- and I'm going to look at 6 that now and thank you for handing that over - 7 it is perceived that that is an attempt to close 8 debate, and you will agree -- and this is my 9 question -- that the subjective determination of 10 a presiding officer, even with good intention, 11 can often be in just the process a detriment to 12 the process because there's misunderstanding. 13 We had a situation in here last 14 year, where Senator Connor was explaining his 15 vote and was asked whether or not his 16 explanation of his own vote was germane to the 17 topic. It was just an oversight by the 18 presiding officer, but in a situation involving 19 a serious disagreement between the two sides of 20 the aisle, I'm suggesting to you that this is a 21 very dangerous part of the rules change, amid 22 some very good rules changes, but this is one 23 that I think we need to reconsider, and would 1 like to hear your response. 2 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you very 3 much, Senator. We looked at Robert's Rules and 4 we looked at Mason's, and we made a choice, of 5 the two, that Mason's was more representative; 6 and I believe that the Assembly made the same 7 choice, in that they operate in the same 8 procedure with a majority, and that's how we got 9 where we are. So we did look at both and, 10 again, I just want to be reassuring that what 11 we're doing here is intended to create more 12 efficiency and more responsiveness on our behalf 13 with the public that we serve and not to serve 14 any other purpose other than that. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: One last 16 question. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Paterson. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you for 20 answering that question, Senator Bruno. We have 21 a number of rules changes here and this is an 22 issue that I would just like to ask for 23 clarification. Under our current rules, under 1 Rule IX, Section 3, which is pointed out to me 2 by Senator Dollinger, we have the opportunity - 3 and it could be an immense opportunity in this 4 situation -- to vote on some of the rules 5 changes separately. 6 How are we actually going to vote 7 on this? Because as I pointed out earlier, you 8 have some things in here that I think a number 9 of members on this side of the aisle are quite 10 pleased with. You do have that particular issue 11 that, although Robert's apparently didn't 12 concur, we found Mason; and if Mason hadn't been 13 written that way, I'm sure we would have found 14 Dixon, or somebody. 15 But the point is that I suggest 16 that maybe we might want to vote on these when 17 we finish with the debate -- not to have 18 separate debates but just to vote on some of the 19 rules changes separately. 20 SENATOR BRUNO: That was a 21 question, Senator? 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 23 SENATOR BRUNO: I would feel 1 that, again, we talked about this for a couple 2 of hours earlier today. We'll talk about it 3 probably for another couple of hours this 4 afternoon, and we are really talking about rules 5 changes that are in total, or individual lines 6 and instances but in total. So it really would 7 seem to me that we are better serving ourselves 8 and the public by talking about these rules 9 changes as they interrelate to each other and 10 move them forward in unison rather than take 11 each individual line and try and act on it, 12 pretty much as we might a very comprehensive 13 bill that might be on the floor where we don't 14 try and take it apart but deal with it in its 15 totality. 16 So I would, respectfully, request 17 that we go forward in this nature, dealing with 18 all of the rules together and act on them 19 together. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Gold, why do you rise? 22 SENATOR GOLD: You have a list. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I have a 1 list going. Senator Lack is next, then Senator 2 Dollinger, then Senator Leichter, then Senator 3 Gold. 4 SENATOR LACK: Thank you, Mr. 5 President. 6 I rise to make some general 7 comments about, if I can, these rules changes 8 and I've heard, you know, if not Mason's so I 9 guess then comes Dixon's, and I heard earlier 10 this morning, when I walked in, this is some 11 kind of Republican gag rule. 12 Let me, if I can, explain for a 13 moment perhaps, some of my colleagues who don't 14 know, exactly what Mason's Manual of Legislative 15 Procedure is. 16 It is -- first of all, the copy 17 right and publication rights are owned by the 18 National Conference of State Legislatures which 19 this body, the Assembly, and all other states 20 contribute to each year. The rights to Mason's 21 Manual were willed by John Mason to NCSL. NCSL 22 formed a Mason's Manual Revision Commission, 23 which is comprised of such prominent Democrats 1 as Pat Flahaven, Chair of the Minnesota House; 2 Betty King, the Clerk of the Texas Senate; Don 3 Schneider, the Clerk of the Wisconsin Senate. 4 It is also used by the United 5 States Information Agency under this Democratic 6 Administration as the Manual of Legislative 7 Procedure to be taught to emerging parliaments 8 in 12 African countries, in Ukraine, Mongolia, 9 China and, as Senator Bruno mentioned, it is 10 used by 69 of the 99 state legislative bodies in 11 the United States. 12 Mason's itself in terms of its 13 citations uses both of Cushing's works, Dementor 14 Haskill's Precedents of Proceedings in the House 15 of Commons, Edward Wakefield Hughes' American 16 Parliamentary Guide, Thomas Jefferson's 1781 17 Manual, the Massachusetts Manual from the State 18 of Massachusetts Legislature, the New York 19 Legislative Manual of 1936 to 1948 and '49, 20 Thomas Reed's A Manual of General Parliamentary 21 Law, Robert's Rules of Order, Alice Sturgis' 22 Standard Code of Parliamentary Procedure, John 23 Tillson's Parliamentary Law and Procedure, 1 Tillson's Manual of Parliamentary Procedure, and 2 the Rules of the United States Congress, as well 3 as Rufus Hoople's A Handbook on Parliamentary 4 Practice, all of which are cross cited under 5 Mason's Manual of Legislative Procedure. 6 If anybody would like, I can go 7 on for about 20 minutes on the difference 8 between Mason's and Robert's and why Mason's was 9 designed for legislative use and, indeed, is 10 used in the vast majority of legislative bodies 11 in the United States. 12 Senator Bruno went over with you 13 the sections in Mason's with respect to calling 14 the previous question. If I can, I would like 15 to mention two other sections in Mason's, 16 Section 121, on breaches of order of the house, 17 and Section Number 101 on debate is limited to 18 the question before the house. In both those 19 sections, it says a member who resorts to 20 persistent irrelevance or to persistent 21 repetition after the attention of the house has 22 been called to the matter may be directed to 23 discontinue the speech, by the presiding 1 officer. This is the procedure that is used in 2 the vast majority of American legislative bodies 3 now and has been since Paul Mason started 4 writing this manual some 60 or 70 years ago. 5 For any member of this house to 6 try to stand up and say that this is a 7 Republican gag rule that we're putting forth or 8 anything else when the vast majority of the 9 editors and members of the Mason's Manual 10 Commission, one, are Democrats and, two, those 11 who are not are in the minority, are either 12 Republicans or nonpartisan. This is American 13 democracy. This is the most used publication 14 and the publication that is proselytized as much 15 as possible throughout the world by the United 16 States government of our American democracy. 17 As a matter of fact, Senator 18 Bruno, if I can, on behalf of the National 19 Conference of State Legislatures and, in effect, 20 violating a rule in Mason's to bring in a 21 document that isn't part of the house, Senator, 22 I would like to, on behalf of NCSL, give you the 23 whole Manual of Legislative Procedure that is 1 owned by NCSL, the latest 1989 edition. This 2 one, by the way, is in English. 3 Just six months ago, NCSL at the 4 request of the federal government published a 5 Spanish language edition, and it is being 6 utilized in all the South American democracies, 7 as well. 8 But I would strongly suggest 9 that, since we are one of the few parliamentary 10 bodies in this country that doesn't use Mason's, 11 that we adopt, besides our own rules, Mason's as 12 a backup document and that everything in it, 13 Senator Paterson, as I said, is well understood 14 and you are welcome to look at any of the 15 citations yourself. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Paterson, why do you rise? 18 SENATOR PATERSON: If Senator 19 Lack would yield either for a question or to 20 give us the 900 number so that this infomercial 21 will end and we can buy a copy of this 22 document. 23 All I was trying to point out, 1 Senator Lack, was that the document had not been 2 in discussion for an hour and 40 minutes, and I 3 was following the information that was given to 4 me under Robert's Rules of Order; and if you are 5 now saying that you want to supercede that with 6 another document, I will read it and I'm not 7 going to presume to comment on it until I have 8 taken a look at it; but knowing that it has been 9 used in 69 of the 99 legislatures and in 10 Mongolia and China, which I wasn't sure you 11 would be willing to admit, but, nonetheless, I 12 am going to look at it and see if under Section 13 121 if you are not correct. I'm sure it is 14 valid, and I will look at it. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 16 recognizes Senator Dollinger on debate. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 18 President, I don't get many privileges as a 19 single Senator, but I think under the current 20 rules I have the right to ask that these 21 questions be divided and that each of these 22 amendments be considered separately by the 23 house. I would invoke my privilege under Rule 1 9(3)(A). I believe this proposal meets all of 2 those requirements; and, therefore, I would ask 3 that this be divided into separate parts, that 4 we vote on each of these individually, because 5 each of them contains different statements of 6 fact. They contain distinct principles; and, 7 frankly, I have a series of amendments to 8 propose to these rules to change them, and I 9 would like to deal with each one of these 10 amendments in order. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 12 Certainly, Senator Dollinger, under the rules of 13 the house, Section 3A, there's reference -- and 14 that's a Rule 9 -- there is reference to the 15 divisibility of matters before the house, and 16 you do have the right to make that motion that 17 this resolution to be divided for that purpose, 18 and the Chair will entertain what you have just 19 said as a motion to do that. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 21 President, I would simply ask there's nothing in 22 the rules that requires that it be made by 23 motion. It is a privilege granted to each 1 Senator in this house. There is nothing that 2 suggests it has to be made by motion. It is a 3 right of a Senator provided that the factual 4 circumstances are met. 5 As you read that rule, it says, 6 "The division called for embodies a distinct 7 principle." All of these involved distinct 8 principles whether the, quote, "gag" rule to the 9 notion of whether the Temporary President will 10 have control over property that's owned by the 11 Senate and the extent of that control, very 12 distinct different questions. There's 13 statements of fact. They meet distinct 14 principles. There's nothing that suggests this 15 is subject to the vote of the house, Mr. 16 Chairman. 17 You will find in the rules, we 18 specifically say, "It will be done upon motion." 19 Upon motion, a Senator may have the right to do 20 this. Upon motion, a Senator may have the right 21 to do this. Nothing in these rules requires 22 that this be subject to a motion. This is a 23 privilege created under the rules for each of 1 the 61 people in this house provided that the 2 factual circumstances are met. It appears to 3 me, based on the facts of this proposal, we 4 clearly meet the test under 9(3)(A), and I'm 5 clearly entitled to that division without a vote 6 of the house. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Marcellino. 9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I'm not sure 10 it's wise to comment on -- I don't know if it's 11 appropriate, but to comment on Senator 12 Dollinger's - 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 14 rules that it is not appropriate at this time. 15 I will state, as in the previous 16 fashion relative to the adoption of the Journal, 17 that when there is no provision in the rules 18 that calls for a motion, I'm outlining it, 19 Senator Dollinger, and this is not subject to 20 debate; that is, very simply, that you have made 21 a motion, in the Chair's terms, to have the 22 resolution which is currently before the house 23 subdivided in accordance with this rule. 1 The Chair would rule that it is 2 the determination of this house to make that 3 decision as to whether or not that is divisible, 4 and that that is a motion properly put for this 5 house to decide. 6 Now you can -- I would remind you 7 that this is all going to be part of the 8 two-hour time limit which is part of the 9 resolution that is before the house, and it 10 would be the Chair's ruling, in addition to the 11 one I have just made, as a method of amplifying 12 that ruling that the rules are not set up, 13 particularly this provision, for the purposes of 14 allowing you to extenuate the debate beyond the 15 two-hour time period. So if you wish to 16 challenge the ruling of the Chair, you will 17 still be subject to the two-hour time limit 18 which is provided to any article or any 19 provision that is before this house. 20 So with that, the question is on 21 the motion of Senator Dollinger to divide this 22 particular provision. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: May I be 1 heard on that ruling, Mr. President? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Pardon? 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: May I be 4 heard on that ruling of the Chair that it 5 requires a motion? 6 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Gold, why do you rise? 9 SENATOR GOLD: Would Senator 10 Dollinger indulge me for one moment? Because 11 with Senator Bruno's permission and Senator 12 Dollinger's permission, the press release of 13 Senator Bruno sets forth accurately, I believe, 14 that there are a number of things that we're 15 talking about -- as a matter of fact, seven of 16 them on top -- which probably we could just 17 separate and get rid of in terms of a vote, and 18 make one or two things which are in issue. Now, 19 as Senator Bruno knows, with regard to the 20 Resolution Calendar we often do that. We pass 21 the whole Resolution Calendar. We hold one or 22 two out, and we have a discussion. 23 So, Senator Bruno, I don't know, 1 maybe there is a compromise here, Senator 2 Bruno. From our point of view, there are these 3 seven things the Committee on Racing, the Energy 4 Committee issue, the calling bills from the 5 Governor, the clarifying the attendance reports, 6 those things which we probably can just get rid 7 of. 8 Excuse me, Senator Lack. Your 9 voice is very good, so I can hear. Nobody is 10 suggesting, Senator Bruno, that we're going to 11 take two hours on everything. We're talking 12 about how the voting takes place. I didn't see 13 Senator Paterson say we want two hour times nine 14 issues. We're not talking about that. We're 15 talking about taking seven matters and getting 16 rid of them, and then I assume we will debate 17 the other matters within the two hours. I don't 18 think that's a problem, but just take separate 19 votes on those things, and I think that if they 20 are as significant as you believe them to be, 21 that you would feel very proud to just have 22 those separate votes. I don't see where that is 23 a problem. 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 2 President, I'm not sure who has the floor at 3 this point. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I 5 also understand that there's some concern about 6 the integrity of the rules and breaking things 7 up. Nobody is suggesting that bills be 8 subdivided. As a general rule, in the beginning 9 of a session, the Majority offers its rules. We 10 vote on it as a package. Senator Bruno, I don't 11 see anything wrong with that. 12 But I think that, as an 13 accommodation, Senator Bruno, there's nothing 14 wrong. You were the one, Senator Bruno, who 15 made comments earlier today, which I take very 16 seriously, about us cooperating and working 17 things out. I think if you take these seven 18 things, maybe we can even vote on them now, get 19 it done; and then within the context of the 20 two-hour debate, we are going to discuss some of 21 the other matters and then take a couple of 22 votes. So I think you are talking about two 23 votes. I don't think that's destructive of this 1 house, and maybe it's a compromise that saves us 2 some time and energy. 3 I don't know, Senator Bruno, if 4 you want to address that or not. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Bruno, would you wish to respond to Senator 7 Gold's inquiry? 8 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. 9 Yes, in response, it is my understanding that 10 the resolution that is before the house is in 11 total, and we have been talking about separate 12 parts of that total resolution, and it's my 13 understanding that the present rules of the 14 Senate dictate that the Chair will make a 15 judgment on whether that is so, and it is also 16 my understanding that the Chair has ruled that 17 this resolution is before us to be voted on in 18 toto, and the prerogative of others who disagree 19 would be to appeal the ruling of the Chair and, 20 as you pointed out, that would relate to part of 21 the time frame of the debate on this bill. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, 23 Senator Bruno. Just to reaffirm the ruling of 1 the Chair, the ruling of the Chair is that 2 Senator Dollinger has the right to make a motion 3 relative to the divisibility of this particular 4 resolution, and that motion is before the house 5 for debate. 6 Now, Senator Dollinger, do you 7 wish to appeal the ruling of the Chair? 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, I do, 9 Mr. President. May I be heard on the motion of 10 the ruling? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Pardon? 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: May I be 13 heard on the issue of the appeal of the ruling 14 of Chair? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 16 Absolutely. Senator Dollinger, on the appeal of 17 the ruling of the Chair. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: One of the 19 reasons why the debate over rules is so 20 important is because, at least under my 21 understanding, once you have rules you agree to 22 abide by them. 23 With all due respect to the 1 presiding officer, with all due respect to his 2 judgment, when I read this rule, when I'm 3 looking for guidance as to what power has been 4 given to each individual Senator in this house, 5 in the power given constitutionally to this body 6 to enact laws for the people of this state, in 7 the power given to this body to adopt rules that 8 govern the way we do business, I read a rule 9 that says "if the question in debate contains 10 several points." It's undisputed, I believe. I 11 never heard anybody say, thus far, that this 12 doesn't involve several points. It involves, in 13 fact, changes to approximately a dozen of the 14 rules of this house. Each of them are separate 15 points. 16 "A Senator" -- it says, "a 17 Senator." It doesn't say has to make a motion. 18 It doesn't say that you have to ask for approval 19 of the house. It doesn't say that you have to 20 ask approval of your leader. It doesn't say 21 that you have to ask for approval of the 22 chairman of the committee. It could say all of 23 those things. It could draft it to say all of 1 those things. But this body, some prior Senate, 2 decided in using its majority power to create a 3 rule that gives every single Senator the right 4 to do, what? "He may have the same divided." 5 He can have it divided provided the division 6 called for -- the only limitation on the power 7 of any one of 61 of us is that it embodies a 8 distinct principle -- the division embodies a 9 distinct principle or a statement of fact. 10 Not one word that I have heard 11 thus far suggests that those factual criteria 12 for exercising a power given by these rules to a 13 single Senator are not met in this case. 14 Why do I want to do this? Two 15 reasons. One, with all due respect to the 16 Temporary President, he talked about how 17 important it was because we don't subdivide big 18 bills. We don't take single items that are 19 pending before the house, complicated bills, and 20 break them down into several specific points. I 21 can understand that rule as it would apply to a 22 big bill because those bills come out of 23 committee. They are considered by the Codes 1 Committee. They are considered by the Insurance 2 Committee. They are considered by the Judiciary 3 Committee. They are big bills. They get lots 4 of review in committee. We get lots of notice 5 we have ample opportunity. 6 None of those things happened in 7 this case. These rules were told to the 8 minority 24 hours beforehand. Actually, 22 9 hours ago we were told there would be changes. 10 We were never served. I have never been served 11 with any copy of these proposed rules. Our 12 counsel somehow obtained one. I wasn't given 13 notice. I wasn't given primary due process. 14 So what I seek to do is to use 15 the rules that we're now about to change to 16 exercise my prerogatives as a single Senator to 17 ask that they be subdivided. If you believe in 18 the rules, if you believe in the rules of this 19 body and the power of any one to pass rules that 20 should be abided by when they have been approved 21 by a majority of this house, it seems to me you 22 must vote to overrule the determination of the 23 Chair, because there's nothing in the facts that 1 says I'm not entitled to it. There's nothing in 2 this rule that says I'm not entitled to it; and, 3 in fact, the procedure here, with this last 4 minute springing of a whole new set of rules, 5 calls for it's enforcement in this case. 6 I will point out one other 7 thing. I have five or six changes, proposed 8 amendments to the rules, a proposed amendment to 9 the proposal from Senator Bruno. It is my 10 intention -- if this ruling of the Chair is 11 overturned, I will bring forward those changes 12 one by one, because I think we need to change 13 these proposed changes. I don't think they go 14 far enough. I think they go too far in some 15 instances, and I would like to have the 16 opportunity to individually introduce an 17 amendment to this resolution to change the way 18 that it's been proposed. The only way to do 19 that is to divide it into separate parts. I 20 will propose an amendment to separate parts. 21 If you believe in the rule of law 22 and if you believe in the concept of rules, 23 seems to me you have no choice but to overturn 1 the President's determination. I'd simply point 2 out, if you allow this ruling to stand, not only 3 are you stripping the power that all 61 of us 4 have but you are also demonstrating that the 5 rules don't mean anything. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 7 any other Senator wishing to speak on the appeal 8 to the ruling of Chair? 9 (There was no response.) 10 Hearing none, the question is on 11 the appeal of the ruling of the Chair that the 12 motion by Senator Dollinger to allow this 13 resolution to be divisible is not possible under 14 the rules. 15 All those in favor of upholding 16 the ruling of the Chair, signify by saying aye. 17 (Response of "Aye.") 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Party vote in 19 the negative. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Party vote in 21 the affirmative. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Party 23 vote in the negative. Party vote in the 1 affirmative. Secretary record the results. 2 Call the roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll.) 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 5 the results. 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36, nays 19; 7 party vote. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 ruling of the Chair is upheld. It is 10 sustained. The motion is before the house. 11 Senator Dollinger, do you wish to 12 speak on the motion? 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 14 President, I believe I just lost the right and 15 the power to do this individually. I can't 16 believe that we're departing from the rules. 17 We're about to have a debate on the rules, and 18 someone has said the rules don't mean anything. 19 But, I guess, under the ruling of 20 the Chair I will now move that this be divided 21 into separate questions and that each amendment 22 to each rule be considered separately by this 23 house. I hate to think that the rules of law 1 have no meaning, but I guess -- I can't come 2 away with any other message. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Skelos, on the motion. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: The rules of the 6 Senate do not allow a resolution to be amended, 7 and this is a resolution. 8 If Senator Dollinger would wish 9 at some time to offer up proposed rules changes 10 such as Senator Bruno did in a timely fashion, 11 then he certainly would be entitled do so. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Point of 13 order, Mr. President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Dollinger. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would the 17 Deputy Majority Leader show me where it says 18 that in the rules? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Dollinger, excuse me just a - 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Point of 22 order. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 1 Leichter, why do you rise? 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Point of 3 order. I believe there is a motion on the floor 4 that has absolutely nothing to do - 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Leichter, there is already one point of order on 7 the floor. Let me address that first, will you 8 please. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: If I may. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: In the rules 11 when we talk about amendments, it refers to 12 bills. It does not refer to resolutions. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 14 President, point of order. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Dollinger, you already stated one point of 17 order. I'm trying to address that right now if 18 you will just give me a second. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I apologize, 20 Mr. President. Overanxious. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Dollinger, thank you for your indulgence. I 23 apologize for the delay, but it's taken me a 1 couple of minutes to review the appropriate 2 sections of the rules and those as they apply. 3 It would appear as though the point of order 4 which Senator Skelos has raised is in fact 5 founded; and while I don't have to explain that 6 ruling to you, I think it's important that you 7 understand the basis of my ruling. 8 In researching the rules, I go 9 through and under Rule VIII, I find that there 10 are provisions in that, particularly Subdivision 11 4 of that particular rule, that talk about 12 amending bills, and other portions of those 13 particular provisions talk about the proper 14 procedure for, in fact, providing notice and the 15 necessary notice that's required to, in fact, 16 bring it before the house. I would note and it 17 would be my ruling that, because there is such 18 particularity with regard to amending bills, it 19 would appear that there should be the same kind 20 of particularity that would be there relating to 21 the amendment of resolutions; and that without 22 exclusive provisions being included within the 23 rules, that it is the ruling of this chair that 1 there is no provision for amending resolutions. 2 Therefore, your motion which you have brought to 3 divide or, in essence, to amend the current 4 resolution before the house is out of order. 5 Now, it seems to me that that 6 leaves you with the provision of either adopting 7 this resolution that's before the house or 8 defeating it, and that is the ruling of the 9 Chair which you are entitled to appeal. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Can I have an 11 inquiry from the presiding officer -- is that a 12 permissible parliamentary -- just to explain the 13 ruling so I make sure I understand it, Mr. 14 President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I think 16 in this particular case I would be more than 17 happy to try to explain it as best I can. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Does Robert's 19 Rules of Order govern the Assembly in the 20 absence of the specific rules in the Senate? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We're in 22 the Senate, number one, and I don't really want 23 to get into that. What I particularly want to 1 do is confine my discussions to this particular 2 ruling of the Chair - 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right, but - 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: -- with 5 regard to this particular motion that you have 6 made, and I have ruled the point of order is 7 well founded and that your motion is out of 8 order. 9 At this point, I have laid it out 10 because there needs to be some specificity in 11 the rules, okay, to in fact allow that to 12 happen; and with it not being provided for, my 13 interpretation that it is not, therefore, 14 authorized under the procedures of this house. 15 So with that as a ruling, you are 16 left with the option to either appeal the ruling 17 of the Chair if you'd like or you can let the 18 ruling stand. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I appeal the 20 ruling of the Chair. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Do you 22 wish to speak on the ruling of the Chair? 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, Mr. 1 President, I do. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Dollinger, on an appeal to the ruling of the 4 Chair. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 6 President, here we go again. We get notice one 7 day at 4:00 o'clock in the afternoon. The next 8 morning at 10:00 o'clock we debate these rules. 9 I've got suggestions, specific things that I 10 think would improve the rules, would preserve 11 the integrity in this house, would preserve the 12 integrity of each member of this house, and I'm 13 not going to be able to do it. 14 I'm not going to be able to do it 15 because I'm now ruled out of order when there is 16 nothing in the rules that says it's out of 17 order, so I can only conclude again, Mr. 18 President, that the rules have meaning to some 19 people but no meaning to anybody else. I don't 20 understand it. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 question is on the appeal of the ruling of the 23 Chair to find Senator Dollinger's motion to 1 divide the resolution out of order. 2 All those in favor of upholding 3 the ruling of the Chair, signify by saying aye. 4 (Response of "Aye.") 5 All those opposed to the ruling 6 of the Chair, nay. 7 (There was no response.) 8 The ayes have it. The ruling of 9 the Chair is sustained. 10 We're back to debate on the main 11 resolution. Senator Dollinger, you still have 12 the floor. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 14 President, let me tell you what I would have 15 done so the body might know what I would have 16 done in these rules. 17 On the first rule that deals with 18 the extension of the Temporary President's 19 authority over a Senator's office, I would 20 simply have moved in this body to say, the 21 Temporary President can have authority over 22 property except the personal property in a 23 Senator's district or LOB office, which property 1 shall be under the control of each Senator. I 2 don't know, frankly, why Senator Bruno wants to 3 have control over what happens in my office 4 when, frankly, the people of the State of New 5 York are the people I'm accountable to and not 6 to Senator Bruno. I think we're giving too much 7 power to the Temporary President to control our 8 own offices. I think every one of the 61 9 members in this house ought to be offended by 10 the notion of what this involves. 11 I also would have amended the 12 rule to require that the germaneness issue 13 which, of course, is an issue that frankly with 14 the same presiding officer in the Chair was the 15 subject of some extensive debate last year on 16 the issue of germaneness, as the presiding 17 officer may recall, involving my particular 18 attempt to determine the definition of 19 germaneness. I believe that this provision is 20 overly restrictive. I would change one word in 21 the rules. One word. Instead of saying "the" 22 question under discussion, I would have said 23 "any" question under discussion, expanding the 1 scope of what is determined to be germane, 2 somewhat limiting the power of the Temporary 3 President. 4 I would also have changed one 5 other thing, and that is the provision that 6 requires the previous question to cut off 7 debate. I know it hasn't been used often in 8 legislative assemblies, but I would simply say 9 that we ought to have the same rules as the 10 United States Senate. We ought to recognize 11 that a motion for closure requires the votes of 12 38 Senators, all of them present and voting at 13 the same time. It seems to be that that would 14 strike a better balance between the openness 15 that the Senate Majority Leader talks about and 16 the reality of what's contained in these rules. 17 I believe this starts us down the 18 road to stifling debate. I think it starts us 19 down the road if not carrying us to the 20 conclusion where the Majority Leader and his 21 colleagues, voting by majority, can take away 22 the rights of any Senator, and I would just 23 simply point out -- what's the chance that it 1 will happen? -- it happened ten minutes ago when 2 a ruling in this body specifically said every 3 Senator has the right to have it divided, and 4 this house held it doesn't mean that. Don't 5 bother to take the rules seriously. Forget the 6 rules. You've got the power. You've got the 7 votes. The rules don't matter. The rules don't 8 matter. You know them like that; they don't 9 matter. 10 I wonder sometimes. All of my 11 colleagues across the aisle who want to send all 12 of those messages to people in this state about 13 how important rules are, how they ought to abide 14 by the law. We don't abide by them ourselves. 15 How can we send that message with any kind of 16 clear and coherent voice? 17 I think this is a farce, Mr. 18 President. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Leichter. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 23 President. Senator Bruno, earlier today, said 1 on a number of occasions, "Well, we're just 2 doing what the Assembly is doing. I've learned 3 from Speaker Silver." 4 Let me say that this house has 5 its own traditions, its own practices, its own 6 rules. I came to this house from the Assembly 7 many years ago, and there was a marked 8 difference. This house is run in a more 9 collegial fashion, partly reflects the fact that 10 we're 61 members -- at that time I think we are 11 60 members -- that more is done in 12 collaboration, cooperation. Certainly the 13 Majority is always in the position to enforce 14 its will, but there isn't the same sort of 15 efforts to suppress the Minority as I found in 16 my experience in the Assembly. 17 Now, what we're seeing is that 18 some of the practices of the Assembly -- and 19 maybe some of them are necessary because as I 20 said the larger number of members of the house, 21 but some of them are not. We have criticized 22 the Assembly. I don't think anybody here on 23 this side of the aisle would get up and say the 1 Assembly and its practice is a model of a 2 democratic body. 3 Now, what has happened is that as 4 Republican Assembly members come here as 5 Republican Senators, they bring grievous 6 offenses that they felt were committed while 7 they were members of the Assembly and they bring 8 those into this house. 9 Now, there are two lessons to 10 learn from the experience that you had in the 11 Assembly. One is that's a terrible way of doing 12 things and I'm not going to do it this way 13 because I'm going to opt for democracy and 14 openness and collegiality and deliberation. 15 That would be one response. The other response 16 is to come here and to say, boy, now that I'm in 17 the majority I want to suppress the minority the 18 way I was suppressed when I was in the 19 Assembly. 20 Unfortunately, instead of the 21 dovish attitude, instead of what I would submit 22 is a more reasonable attitude, we find that 23 hawkish attitude, and I'm distressed that people 1 who I find generally so reasonable, as Senator 2 Skelos and Senator Velella, and as I look around 3 there are so many of you who came from the 4 Assembly and probably still bear bitter 5 remembrances of your service there; that your 6 attitude here is, "Why are we giving any rights 7 whatsoever to the Minority? Let's do to the 8 Minority in the Senate what was done to the 9 Minority in the Assembly when I served there." 10 And I can understand, coming in here as abused 11 persons and still bearing your wounds and your 12 scars from your service in the Assembly that you 13 have taken the road of suppression rather than 14 the road of collegiality. 15 So, Senator Bruno, you did not 16 serve in the Assembly, but I can tell you from 17 my service there that the Assembly not in all 18 instances is the model of the way that we ought 19 to do things. We have our traditions, our 20 practices and, by and large, they have served us 21 well, and I think that we are a more 22 deliberative body as a result, a more collegiate 23 body, but that's being changed by these rules. 1 Now, we have a strong leader 2 system in this Senate. Senator Bruno probably 3 has more powers than the legislative leader of 4 such great democracies as Senator Lack called 5 our attention to as Mongolia and China, who used 6 Mason's. If you used Mason's, you are a great 7 democracy. I guess that's the test of whether 8 you have a democratic government. 9 But I would just say that the 10 powers of the Majority Leader, enormous as it is 11 -- I mean he can deny you paper, phone calls. 12 He has all the powers that you would want and 13 then some, but that obviously was not sufficient 14 for Senator Bruno. He wants to limit the rights 15 of the Minority to get up and debate. He is 16 doing this in two ways. One is by introducing 17 the practice of ruling somebody out of order by 18 not being germane, and I certainly could not 19 improve -- I don't think anybody can improve on 20 the point that Senator Gold made that it is such 21 a subjective standard, and you know and I know 22 that that's going to be used against the 23 Minority. If you are uncomfortable with what 1 somebody says or you think it's a little late in 2 the afternoon and you would like to go and 3 relax, then the way to cut off debate is to say, 4 well, the member isn't germane. 5 Secondly, you try to limit debate 6 and the rights of the Minority to present their 7 viewpoint by now providing a new means of 8 cutting off debate at any time; and when you 9 consider the fact that we have a two-hour rule 10 -- which, by the way, the Assembly doesn't 11 have. They didn't have in my day and I still 12 think they don't have, so that they are acting 13 in a different environment and a different 14 context in regards to some of these rules. 15 We have a two-hour rule. In my 16 experience, it's rare that the debate on most 17 issues goes on. In the course of a session, 18 there may be four or five bills where the full 19 allotted two hours will be used up, so I don't 20 know what you gain or why you need this effort 21 to try to limit debate in this house. Actually, 22 it's just going to boomerang, as I pointed out, 23 because it will mean that you will have all 1 these contentious debates because the president 2 or the acting president will say it's not 3 germane. I challenge the ruling, and then we 4 have a two-hour debate on the ruling. It 5 doesn't make sense. You don't need it. You 6 don't need it. 7 I used to argue in Senator 8 Anderson's day -- he had the power to star bills 9 -- you don't need it. You can keep any bill 10 from coming to the floor as it is. Why assume 11 this extra power when it's unnecessary and when 12 it's so blatantly anti-democratic? Now, to 13 Senator Bruno's credit, he hasn't used that 14 power. I don't think Senator Marino ever used 15 that particular power, but you still want it in 16 the rules. It's still stated in the rules. 17 Maybe we're going to find that 18 also the provision as to germaneness will not be 19 used. I certainly hope so because I think that 20 all of us, whether we're in the majority or in 21 the minority, that we ought to have a certain 22 pride in the free exchange of ideas, of reason 23 and challenges, if you will, to legislation. 1 That's what we're sent up here to do. 2 I made the point earlier today 3 that one of the reasons that you really don't 4 want to spend time in this chamber is that you 5 make your decisions in secret conference. 6 Senator Bruno jumped up and said, okay, I'm 7 going to open up my conference. At least, he 8 will open up the conference that's scheduled for 9 Monday, January 22. Maybe he'll start a 10 practice, start something that should be done; 11 that when in a conference decisions are being 12 made as to how you are going to act on 13 legislation, that certainly ought to be made 14 public and I'm sure that the Democratic 15 conference will respond similarly. 16 The third rule that I find 17 particularly reprehensible is the power of the 18 Majority Leader over all facilities, over all 19 property of the Senate. I don't know what it 20 means. I don't know, can he go to my office and 21 say, "Well, I don't like where your secretary 22 sits; I want her to sit there; I want you to 23 move the Xerox machine"? What is the aim of 1 it? What's the purpose? 2 I think that in toto what we see 3 here is really the tyranny of the Majority. 4 It's an effort to deny the Minority the ability 5 and the right to function, to be effective. In 6 part, it's your embarrassment, I think, in 7 having to defend positions at times which are 8 pretty indefensible, put forth legislation that 9 maybe you can't defend. What are you afraid 10 of? What are you afraid of in debating issues? 11 What are you afraid of in saying that the 12 Majority Leader has to take possession of 13 anything and everything that he sees and can 14 touch which he claims is part of the Senate. 15 I think this is a serious step 16 backward. It's a break from the traditions of 17 this house. I think it unfortunately brings us 18 into practices of the Assembly and maybe some 19 other chambers, which nobody has ever accused of 20 being democratic. I think our aim, our effort 21 here, should be to be more open, more 22 democratic. I think it's more important that we 23 do a good job than we be efficient. I know it's 1 important to run the trains on time, but it's 2 also important to get the train going in the 3 right direction and I would like to see a little 4 more attention paid to that. 5 So I regret these rules changes. 6 They put us in the wrong direction. They are 7 tyrannical. They are dictatorial. They do 8 inhibit democratic practices and customs in this 9 house. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 11 recognizes Senator Gold. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 13 President. 14 In view of the fact we've really 15 made a lot of the points, I'll try to be on the 16 brief side. 17 The first observation I'll make 18 is that Senator Bruno was our leader during 1995 19 and I can imagine that there may have been one 20 or two uncomfortable moments, but he certainly 21 was able to run his job under the existing 22 rules, and so it seems to me that the rules 23 changes are really unnecessary. Somebody said 1 earlier, it's like a cannon to take on a minor 2 -- a minor situation, but in response to 3 Senator Lack, who I respect very much, any rules 4 of any legislative body must be looked at in a 5 context, and when you go out throughout the 6 United States -- I know years ago I went to a 7 couple of meetings of NCSL. It was very, very 8 enjoyable. 9 I met members of Legislatures 10 where it was from the farmland areas and maybe 11 they didn't meet every year and the type of 12 legislator was reflective of the state. You had 13 people from farm country and whatever. There 14 are Legislatures in this country where people 15 get elected and when they come together, their 16 party affiliation doesn't mean what it means in 17 New York. So the point is that you have to have 18 rules that fit the situation. 19 Now, whether we like it or not - 20 and some of us like it and some of us very much 21 do not like it -- New York State is ultra 22 political, and you can see that when you look at 23 the bills that come out on calendars and so many 1 other things, so we have to look at our rules in 2 that context. 3 The issue here of the pacific - 4 of the specifics that you are offering bother me 5 for a number of reasons: For example, we have a 6 two-hour debate limit. If we now have a rule 7 that says you can move the previous question, I 8 don't see anything that says that can't be moved 9 after ten minutes, so are you now telling me 10 that the two-hour rule means nothing and that 11 you can end that in ten minutes? 12 On the issue of members not being 13 asked questions if they're not involved in a 14 debate, I want to say the following because I've 15 heard, you know, some of the scuttlebutt that 16 this rule is aimed at me. The fact of the 17 matter is I don't know anybody on this side, 18 Senator Skelos, who has used the debate 19 opportunity to try to embarrass a member. I 20 can't -- as a matter of fact, I'm looking now at 21 one of your distinguished new members on the 22 other side who I had occasion to have some 23 debates with last year, and I would use that 1 gentleman as a character witness. I don't think 2 anything I ever said to him or anybody ever said 3 to him in a debate was with the attitude, "This 4 is a freshman here a week or two new and we can 5 embarrass the individual." I don't think that's 6 ever, ever been done. So I think that, you 7 know, we can set up straw men or women and then 8 change the rules, but it really has no meaning. 9 I made my comments earlier and 10 I'm really not going to repeat them all now. I 11 think that you are making a mistake and you're 12 making an unnecessary mistake because you have 13 been able to run this house and do whatever you 14 wanted to do and still allow free and open 15 debate. I see no reason to change. 16 The last comment I will make - 17 and I'm sorry that Senator Bruno is attending 18 other work so he had to leave the chamber and we 19 understand that, but he made a comment that he 20 issued a release or had a meeting with the press 21 with Assemblyman Silver earlier today and that 22 they've agreed to make public the expenditures 23 of the Senate. I found that interesting. He 1 also said that he didn't have to be dragged to 2 do that. 3 Well, I'll tell you what's true 4 and not true in my perception of that. 5 Certainly I can't hold Senator Bruno responsible 6 for his predecessors, but certainly the concept 7 of open -- opening the books is something that 8 we have fought for years -- for years, so if you 9 want to take your Majority, the answer is yes, 10 we have taken your Majority, dragging and 11 screaming to that point, but what I'm really 12 interested in is that my recollection is that 13 Senator Bruno said last year that he would make 14 last year's figures public, and my understanding 15 was that he even said that, with Mr. Sloan's 16 permission, if Mr. Sloan allowed it, that after 17 December 31st, we were going to see how every 18 penny of taxpayer dollars were spent in '95. 19 Now, I interpret Senator Bruno's 20 comments earlier today as being a change in that 21 and I hope I'm wrong, and if Senator Bruno hears 22 me, maybe he can correct the comments. I'm now 23 getting the opinion that Senator Bruno is now 1 saying that, you know, six months from now, 2 he'll let people know what happened in the first 3 three months of this year. Last year is now 4 seemingly disappearing into the land of Oz. 5 Now, just so people understand 6 what that means, it means that by the time we 7 get to elections, you in the Majority will be 8 protected, at least for this year, from the 9 public really knowing what happened because you 10 will have the capacity to be very frugal in the 11 first three months and then do everything you 12 want to in the next six months before the 13 election to do all the shenanigans you've always 14 done and maybe some of it will come out after 15 the election, maybe some of it won't, but with 16 all due respect to Senator Bruno, I'm glad that 17 he makes the numbers public. I just think, 18 though, that there is a breach of a commitment 19 if he doesn't make the '95 budget available. 20 And having said that, I will tell 21 you that if you are insisting on one vote, we 22 will give you one vote and I will vote no, and 23 I'm not voting no, for the record, because I'm 1 against the committee on racing and gambling - 2 gaming. I'm not going to vote no because the 3 official name of the Senate Energy Committee is 4 being changed and all of that kind of nonsense. 5 The only one last thing which I 6 think -- I know Senator Skelos is very, very 7 good at this kind of stuff and I don't want him 8 to forget something because there is one great 9 maneuver that Warren Anderson pulled and, 10 Senator, you may want to do this, you know, and 11 I hope that Senator Connor doesn't get mad at me 12 for alerting you to this great technique, but I 13 remember when we wanted separate votes on 14 questions of overriding a governor's veto line 15 items, you people said "No, it's no vote. We 16 voted once" and then you ordered the Clerk of 17 this house to create, I think it was 182 or 400 18 or whatever, separate roll calls, so not only 19 did we not get to vote individually, but you 20 guys in your infinite gall then created roll 21 calls that didn't even take place, and some 22 judge who I think had a bad night the night 23 before said, "You can do anything you want." 1 Maybe now that we've made the motion of separate 2 votes, make us vote once but create the roll 3 call. 4 I mean, you people want this to 5 be the land of Oz and what can I tell you? 6 That's the way you're doing it. I think you're 7 going too far, but I guarantee you one thing, 8 because I owe this to you out of the -- out of 9 the depths with which I love every member of the 10 Majority. You change the rules, you change them 11 every day you want, you're not going to quiet 12 us. You're not going to take our freedom of 13 speech because we're going to find some way 14 within the rules. We've always done that. So 15 it's a shame you've forced people to do that. 16 It's shame that we can't walk in here and look 17 each other in the eye and just say, "Look, vote 18 any way you want. Say anything you want, and 19 the will of the Majority be done." That would 20 be so easy to do. If you don't want to do it 21 that way, we will have to find some other way to 22 do it, and then you can argue to the press, as 23 Senator Bruno does -- today's debate is the best 1 example -- oh, there he is. There's my leader. 2 Best example - 3 Would Senator Bruno yield for one 4 quick question? 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 6 President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Bruno yields. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, you made 10 the comment earlier - 11 SENATOR SKELOS: I believe you 12 have to conduct debate from your chair, 13 Senator. (Laughter.) 14 SENATOR GOLD: I would ask that 15 the Chair waive the fine in this one case. 16 Senator Bruno, I'm sorry. You 17 indicated earlier, and I was glad to hear it, 18 that there was some kind of press conference and 19 you've agreed that the expenditures of the 20 Senate will be made public. 21 My question is, I recall last 22 year your comment that at the end of 1995, that 23 something would be put out which would explain 1 every single penny and expenditure. Are you now 2 abandoning 1995 and are you only going to deal 3 with 1996, or will we, in fact, get for 1995 4 what you publicly promised we would get? 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I 6 want to thank Senator Gold for the question and 7 for an opportunity to clarify what's in that 8 press release. 9 People don't always hear what 10 others say. This is not a revelation to many of 11 you. Studies have been made and some of my 12 colleagues have heard this before but, Senator 13 Gold, it's been proven over and over and over, 14 that 70 percent of what you say or I say to 15 someone, they either don't hear, they don't 16 understand your intent, and this is a perfect 17 example because you are 30 percent right and 70 18 percent wrong. 19 SENATOR GOLD: That's better than 20 I usually am. 21 SENATOR BRUNO: And I say that 22 respectfully because I said we will make full 23 disclosure as part of our conference starting 1 January 1st, '96, that is correct, and that is 2 exactly what we will be doing as related in this 3 press conference. 4 I had some of my assistants 5 research what we actually said because there was 6 some contention that I might have said that we 7 would be talking '95 reported on January 1st, 8 and I was concerned about that because many 9 times I, unlike many of you, am not clear in 10 what I'm saying. It was pointed out that I was 11 very specific in saying January 1st, '96. 12 That's what we will be doing. January 1st, '96, 13 which is exactly what I said and the Speaker, by 14 the way, has said, mechanically, we -- if we 15 wanted to and technically could not go back 16 retroactive because we didn't have the 17 technology and the computers and the software of 18 recording the specifics and the detail that we 19 will be reporting to the public going forward 20 from January 1st, '96 on. So even if we wanted 21 to go back to '95, we're not equipped, not here 22 and not in the Assembly to do that, so we didn't 23 have a press conference either, and I just say 1 that; it was a press release that you may have 2 in your hand that we did jointly. We didn't do 3 a press conference. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Senator -- if the 5 Senator will yield. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Bruno, do you continue to yield? 8 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 Senator continues to yield. 11 SENATOR GOLD: I understand what 12 you said about people hearing and understanding 13 and all of that, but know that's the reason I'm 14 asking the question, so I can get it really 15 clear. In other words, as we stand here now, as 16 I understand it, whether it was a commitment or 17 not -- and you're saying a commitment was not 18 stated properly by me -- the fact of the matter 19 is as you stand here now, there is no 20 indication, as I understand, that the Senate 21 will make public the expenditures that were done 22 in 1995 on a line-by-line basis, is that 23 correct? 1 SENATOR BRUNO: That is correct. 2 It will be January 1st, '96 forward, from then 3 on, and our disclosures will be very similar to 4 those made in Congress, full disclosure by 5 member and by Majority and Minority in terms of 6 what represents their staffing. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Any other 9 Senator wishing to speak on the rules change 10 resolution? 11 Senator Paterson. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 13 much, Mr. President. 14 If the Majority Leader who's 15 answered a number of questions today would yield 16 for one further question. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Bruno, do you yield to Senator Paterson? 19 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 20 President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 Senator yields. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, the 1 part of the rules change that relates to 2 personnel who are allowed on the floor and also 3 the control over property around the Senate 4 parlor, maybe I would just start by asking what 5 was the catalyst for this kind of rule change? 6 We've had a long-standing rule about who might 7 be on the floor and we're not aware if there 8 were any violations or anything that caused us 9 to feel that it was in need of some addendum. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Excuse me, Mr. 11 President. I am just being briefed because the 12 question surprises me. What we're doing is sort 13 of putting in rules what the practice is now in 14 this chamber, and there's some question about 15 who has access to this chamber, and we are 16 clarifying by these rules that guests are 17 welcome in the chamber in an orderly fashion and 18 indicating that in the rules, and it's more for 19 clarity than for change. So I'm not sure that 20 you will see any change in anything that goes on 21 in accessing the chamber. It's more an orderly 22 procedure that we're putting into the rules. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 1 Paterson. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: What's in the 3 rules now is where it says the Senate parlor and 4 we've changed it to the Senate floor, that's 5 what caused me to think that because of the 6 change in the physical location description, and 7 so I didn't know the answer to the question. 8 That's why I asked it, to try to understand. 9 Was there anything that was prompting the change 10 or -- if what you're saying is that we're just 11 codifying it. I thought that the signal that 12 there was some change was the change in the 13 language, changing it from the parlor to the 14 Senate floor. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: No. I didn't 16 understand it either, Senator, so thanks for the 17 question, but it really is truly just clarity. 18 For instance, we may have a guest 19 in the chamber today -- you may have a guest, 20 and some member might object to that guest being 21 in the chamber and ask that that guest be 22 removed from the chamber. So we are simply 23 clarifying our rules so that you can have a 1 guest and others that are welcome into the 2 chamber can be here and someone in the chamber, 3 one of your colleagues can ask for their 4 removal. It's that kind of thing that we're 5 just trying to correct, nothing sinister in any 6 way. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Paterson. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Very good. 10 That's a clarification. I understand it well. 11 Thank you very much, Senator Bruno. 12 Just on the rules changes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Paterson on the resolution. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: On the 16 resolution, just to speak to this particular 17 part of it, we did have a situation in here last 18 year that was very sensitive that I just want to 19 raise in this discussion on this particular part 20 of the rules change to this resolution in which 21 the lobbyist for a piece of legislation was in 22 the chamber. However, the lobbyist tragically 23 was a family member who was victimized by the 1 murder of another family member, and while it 2 was most appropriate that the Senate and members 3 hear from her because of her unique experience, 4 some of the members who were voting on the 5 legislation felt a little uncomfortable about 6 the legislation not wanting to in any way 7 suggest that we diminish this tragedy by casting 8 a vote against the actual legislation. I 9 certainly hope that in the future that we'll be 10 cautious because there was certainly no 11 objection to this individual being present in 12 the chamber and actually being referred to, but 13 we do have to bear in mind that when we are 14 arguing legislation, that there is, in our 15 rules, a restriction against those who are 16 actually desiring passage of a piece of 17 legislation exerting any undue influence even by 18 their presence even as well intended as it may 19 be in that proceeding. I did not know that the 20 rules change was an adjustment to any 21 circumstances that occurred last year. The 22 Majority Leader has assured me that it is not. 23 It seems quite clear in the legislation and I 1 thank you, Mr. President, for allowing me the 2 time to put those pieces of information on the 3 record. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 5 any other Senator wishing to speak on the 6 resolution? 7 (There was no response.) 8 Hearing none, the debate is 9 closed. The question is on the resolution 10 dealing with rules changes. All those in favor 11 signify by saying aye. 12 (Response of "Aye".) 13 Opposed, nay. 14 Senator Paterson. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 16 I would like to open the year by asking for the 17 first slow roll call. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Paterson has requested a slow roll call. Are 20 there five members requesting such? Being five 21 standing, the Secretary will read the roll call 22 slowly. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 1 SENATOR ABATE: No. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush. 3 SENATOR BABBUSH: No. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor. 7 (Negative indication.) 8 THE SECRETARY: No. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook. 10 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator 12 DeFrancisco. 13 (There was no response.) 14 Senator DiCarlo. 15 SENATOR DiCARLO: Senator 16 Dollinger. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 18 President, to explain my vote. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Dollinger to explain his vote. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 22 President, I understand the need of a body to 23 have rules and I've certainly discussed my view 1 of these in the debate and in my motions and in 2 my attempt to sever them and in my attempt to 3 divide them. 4 Unfortunately, I can only draw 5 one conclusion from my own personal experience 6 today and that is no matter what the rules look 7 like, they won't mean much because the Majority 8 will be able to change them or not respond to 9 them or interpret them any way they deem fit 10 and, frankly, for someone who respects the rule 11 of law, I am disappointed that today's 12 experience tends to suggest to me that the rule 13 of law is really just simply the rule of the 14 Majority. 15 I'm voting nay. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Dollinger will be recorded in the negative. 18 Continue to call the roll 19 slowly. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 21 (There was no response.) 22 Senator Farley. 23 SENATOR FARLEY: I vote aye. 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold. 2 (There was no response.) 3 Senator Gonzalez. 4 (There was no response.) 5 Senator Goodman. 6 SENATOR GOODMAN: Yes. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon. 8 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock. 10 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann. 12 (There was no response.) 13 Senator Holland. 14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson. 16 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger. 18 SENATOR KRUGER: No. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 20 SENATOR KUHL: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack. 22 SENATOR LACK: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin. 1 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle. 3 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell. 5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leichter. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: No. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy. 9 SENATOR LEVY: Aye. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous. 11 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese. 13 (There was no response.) 14 Senator Marcellino. 15 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 17 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator 19 Markowitz. 20 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz. 22 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez, 1 excused. 2 Senator Montgomery. 3 (There was no response.) 4 Senator Nanula. 5 SENATOR NANULA: No. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nozzolio. 7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato. 9 SENATOR ONORATO: No. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator 11 Oppenheimer. 12 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan. 14 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Paterson. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: No. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present. 18 (There was no response.) 19 Senator Rath. 20 SENATOR RATH: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 22 (There was no response.) 23 Senator Santiago. 1 SENATOR SANTIAGO: No. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears. 3 (There was no response.) 4 Senator Seward. 5 (There was no response.) 6 Senator Skelos. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Aye. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 9 SENATOR SMITH: No. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 11 (There was no response.) 12 Senator Stachowski. 13 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: No. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford. 15 (There was no response.) 16 Senator Stavisky. 17 (There was no response.) 18 Senator Trunzo. 19 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully. 21 SENATOR TULLY: Aye. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella. 23 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker. 2 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon. 4 (There was no response.) 5 Senator Wright. 6 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Secretary will call the absentees. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator 10 DeFrancisco. 11 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada, 13 excused. 14 Senator Gold. 15 (There was no response.) 16 Senator Gonzalez. 17 (There was no response.) 18 Senator Hoffmann. 19 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Can I have my 20 name called? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Hoffmann to explain her vote. 23 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I was 1 initially pleased to see that there were some 2 interesting proposals for reform. First, when 3 the new Majority Leader was selected a year ago 4 and upon the initial announcement this year, 5 there were several things that looked very - 6 very positive, very bright, including creating 7 in a rule form something that I had proposed for 8 many years, which is the elimination of the late 9 night sessions, using the same language that I 10 have had in bill form for a number of years now, 11 but I cannot in clear conscience support a 12 series of measures under the guise of reform 13 which would actually limit free speech in this 14 chamber and will further relegate to the hands 15 of a leader, the ability to control the flow of 16 information and the control of legislation in 17 this chamber. 18 Therefore, with great sadness, I 19 vote no. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Hoffmann will be recorded in the negative. 22 The Secretary will continue to 23 call the roll slowly. 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese. 2 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator 4 Montgomery. 5 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present. 7 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 9 (There was no response.) 10 Senator Sears. 11 SENATOR SEARS: Aye. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward. 13 SENATOR SEWARD: Aye. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 15 SENATOR SPANO: Aye. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford. 17 (There was no response.) 18 Senator Stavisky, excused. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 Secretary will announce the results. 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34, nays 17. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 resolution is adopted. 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 3 there being no further business, I move we 4 adjourn until Monday, January 22nd, 1966 at 3:00 5 -- 19... why do I keep saying '66? 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 7 President - 8 SENATOR SKELOS: I'm sorry. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Skelos, before we do that - 11 SENATOR SKELOS: If I could 12 withdraw that for a moment and please recognize 13 Senator Paterson. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Paterson wants to announce an open conference, I 16 believe, of the Minority. 17 Senator Paterson. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 19 much, Mr. President. 20 I would like to announce a 21 conference of the Minority in the Minority 22 Leader's Conference Room to be held this year. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 1 will be an immediate meeting of the Minority in 2 the Minority Conference Room following session. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Senate will 4 stand in recess, pending return of the Minority 5 from conference. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Senate will stand in recess -- the Senate will 8 stand in recess until the return of the Minority 9 from conference. 10 (The Senate stood in recess from 11 2:50 p.m. until 3:24 p.m.) 12 SENATOR KUHL: Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT LARKIN: Senator 14 Kuhl. 15 SENATOR KUHL: At this time, I'd 16 ask you to call the Senate to order. 17 At this time, in consultation 18 with the Minority Leader, I'd like to hand up 19 the following committee assignments and ask that 20 they be filed with the Journal. This is on 21 behalf of Senator Bruno. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT LARKIN: Notice 23 will be filed in the Journal. 1 SENATOR KUHL: There not being 2 any other business at this time, Mr. President, 3 I move that the Senate at this time be adjourned 4 until January 22nd, 1996 at 3:00 p.m., with all 5 intervening days to be legislative days. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT LARKIN: Without 7 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until 8 Monday, January 22nd, 1996, at 3:00 p.m., 9 intervening days to be legislative days. 10 (Whereupon at 3:35 p.m., the 11 Senate adjourned.) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23