Monday, January 22, 1996

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 January 22, 1996 11 3:01 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President 19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 20 21 22 23 1 P R O C E E D I N G S. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senate will come to order. 4 Will all the members and staff 5 find their places. Ask you all to rise and join 6 with me in saying the Pledge of Allegiance to 7 the Flag. 8 (The assemblage repeated the 9 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 10 We're very pleased to have with 11 us today the Honorable Monsignor Michael J. 12 Cantley, of St. Anastasia's Roman Catholic 13 Church of Douglaston, New York. Father 14 Cantley. 15 REVEREND MICHAEL J. CANTLEY: 16 Members of the Senate, I'm very pleased to be 17 with you today and thank you very much for the 18 invitation to offer this opening prayer for your 19 session. 20 Almighty and eternal God, You 21 have revealed Your mind and nature, history, in 22 the prophets You have sent into the world. The 23 prophet is one who speaks in Your name and for 1 You, one who orders society to the accomplish 2 ment of Your will. In that sense, prophetism 3 continues throughout history. 4 They were prophets who forged the 5 founding documents of our nation and state, and 6 they are prophets today who sit in the 7 assemblies of government to apply constitutional 8 guarantees, to enact laws to create a climate of 9 justice, peace and respect for our life, 10 offering protection for the weak and opportunity 11 to serve to the strong. 12 Gathered here in this Senate are 13 women and men elected by their peers and 14 burdened with the awesome responsibilities to 15 temper justice with mercy, peace with strength 16 and to assure that the most fundamental value be 17 that without which neither justice nor peace of 18 meaning is protected from the moment of its 19 existence 'til You and no other call it home. 20 Assist this Senate with your gift of wisdom that 21 its deliberations and all of its members may see 22 through the bars of conflicting opinions to the 23 common good that all just law is intended to 1 serve. 2 Give them the gift of knowledge 3 and the urgency to seek truth and righteousness 4 that may lie hidden in particular agendas. May 5 ultimate value never be sacrificed to paliate 6 short-term but popular goals. Infuse them with 7 counsel and understanding that will reach beyond 8 party and local constituency to serve the 9 legitimate needs and desires of every citizen, 10 balancing particular concerns and the welfare of 11 the whole state. 12 Accord to them the gift of 13 strength. Allow principle to be the constant 14 prism through which they view the issues they 15 deliberate within this chamber. We pray that 16 every and each member of this Senate will 17 deserve the title "honorable" that precedes 18 his/her name. Let personal integrity which will 19 respect honest opinion and selfless service, 20 self-sacrificing love for all whom they 21 represent, be evident in every moment they serve 22 in their representative office. 23 May their families who have 1 generously supported their aspirations to public 2 life be proud of the positions they take and the 3 service they render. We pray, finally, that the 4 citizenry of this state will respect the service 5 these women and men give and appreciate the 6 sacrifice the position imposes on them. 7 Accord them support, trust, the 8 benefit of doubt and unwavering courtesy. The 9 prophets who sit in this Senate are fallible. 10 May they, we, and all of us together work humbly 11 in the common cause that the political process 12 may actualize the potential of all citizens of 13 good will, offering each the opportunity to be 14 all she/he can be. Amen. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Reading 16 of the Journal. 17 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 18 Friday, January 19th. The Senate met pursuant 19 to adjournment, Senator Bruno in the Chair. The 20 Journal of Thursday, January 18th, was read and 21 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing 23 no objections, the Journal stands approved as 1 read. 2 Presentation of petitions. 3 Messages from the Assembly. 4 Messages from the Governor. 5 Reports of standing committees. 6 Secretary will read. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi, 8 from the Committee on Corporations, Authorities 9 and Commissions, offers up the following bills 10 directly for third reading: 11 Senate Print 1720, by Senator 12 LaValle, an act to amend the Public Authorities 13 Law, in relation to the financing and 14 construction of certain facilities; 15 Senate Print 2198-B, by Senator 16 Marchi, an act to amend the Not-for-Profit 17 Corporation Law, in relation to not-for-profit 18 corporations formed to construct, develop, plan, 19 site, lease, operate or own municipal 20 facilities; 21 Senate Print 3367, by Senator 22 Marchi, an act to repeal Section 630 of the 23 Business Corporation Law, relating to the 1 liability of shareholders; 2 Senate Print 3431, by Senator 3 Marchi, an act to amend the Public Authorities 4 Law, in relation to the construction and 5 financing of facilities for certain public 6 libraries; 7 Senate Print 5183, by Senator 8 Marchi, an act to amend Chapter 590 of the Laws 9 of 1993, amending the Public Authorities Law; 10 All bills directly for third 11 reading. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 13 objection, all bills are ordered directly to 14 third reading. 15 Reports of select committees. 16 Communications and reports from 17 state officers. 18 Motions and resolutions. The 19 Chair recognizes Senator Marcellino. 20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 21 President, I move that the following bills be 22 discharged from their respective committees and 23 be recommitted with instructions to strike the 1 enacting clause: Bill Senate Numbers 899-A, 2 901-A, 902-A, 1281, 3395, 3410, 4459, 4885, 3 4889, 4890, 5101-A, 5276-A, and 5447. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 5 objection, so ordered. 6 Senator Marcellino. 7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 8 President, on page number 12, I offer the 9 following amendments to Calendar Number 81, 10 Senate Print Number 2010, and ask that said bill 11 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 13 Amendments are received and adopted. Bill will 14 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 15 Senator Marcellino. 16 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 17 President, I move the following bill be 18 discharged from its respective committee and be 19 recommitted with instructions to strike the 20 enacting clause, and that is Bill 4530. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 enacting clause will be stricken. 23 Senator Present. 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 2 on behalf of Senator Stafford, on page 11, I 3 offer the following amendments to Calendar 4 Number 79, Senate Print 624, and ask that it 5 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 7 Amendments are received and adopted. Bill will 8 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 9 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 10 on page 11, I offer the following amendments to 11 Calendar 78, Senate Print 621, and ask that it 12 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 14 Amendments to that bill will be received and 15 adopted. Bill will retain its place on the 16 Third Reading Calendar. 17 Senator Present. 18 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 19 on page 9, I offer the following amendments to 20 Calendar 61, Senate Print 1261-B, and ask that 21 it retain its place on the Third Reading 22 Calendar. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 1 Amendments to that bill are received and 2 adopted. The bill will retain its place on the 3 Third Reading Calendar. 4 Senator Present. 5 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 6 on behalf of Senator Levy, on page 7, I offer 7 the following amendments to Calendar Number 39, 8 Senate Bill Number 319, and ask that the bill 9 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 11 Amendments to that bill are received and 12 adopted. Bill will retain its place on the 13 Third Reading Calendar. 14 I understand we have a 15 substitution at the desk. Senator Bruno, is it 16 O.K. if we have that read at this time? 17 SENATOR BRUNO: Substitution, Mr. 18 President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will read the substitution. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker 22 moves to discharge from the Committee on 23 Investigations, Taxation and Government 1 Operations Assembly Print 8222 and substitute it 2 for the identical Calendar Number 36. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 4 objection, substitution is ordered. 5 The Chair recognizes Senator 6 Bruno. 7 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 8 can we at this time ask for an immediate meeting 9 of the Finance Committee in Room 332. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: For those 11 members who are in the reception of my voice, 12 there will be an immediate meeting of the 13 Finance Committee in the Majority Conference 14 Room, Room 332. Immediate meeting of the Senate 15 Finance Committee in Room 332. 16 Senator Bruno, that brings us to 17 the calendar if you're ready for that, sir. 18 SENATOR BRUNO: Can we at this 19 time take up the non-controversial calendar, Mr. 20 President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will read the non-controversial calendar. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 1 13, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 514-A, an act 2 to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in 3 relation to the duties of the Commissioner of 4 Agriculture and Markets. 5 SENATOR ONORATO: Lay it aside. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 7 bill aside. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 35, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 4009-B, an 10 act to amend the Tax Law, the Labor Law, the 11 General Municipal Law, the State Finance Law, 12 the Executive Law, relating to the rate of 13 interest to be paid by certain corporations. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay the bill 15 aside. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 17 bill aside. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 51, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill 3653-A, 20 Retirement and Social Security Law, in relation 21 to permitting pensioners who enter into a 22 marriage. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 1 will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 52, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 5779. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 13 bill aside. 14 SENATOR TRUNZO: Lay aside for 15 the day. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 17 bill aside for the day at the request of the 18 sponsor. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 53, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 1741, an act 21 to amend the Social Service Law, in relation to 22 access to certain conviction records. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 1 will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect on the 120th day. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 67, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 394, an act 12 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 13 relation to increasing the period of time during 14 which driver's licenses are suspended for repeat 15 DWI offenses. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 17 will read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect on the first day of 20 November. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 69, by Senator Velella, Senate Print Number 6 1745, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic 7 Law, and the Criminal Procedure Law, in relation 8 to authorizing the discovery of blood samples. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 12 act shall take effect on the first day of 13 November. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 80, by Senator Saland, Senate Print Number 688, 22 an act to amend the County Law, in relation to 23 enhanced telephone system surcharge. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 2 will read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 10 is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 82, by Senator Tully, Senate Print Number 4514, 13 an act to amend Chapter 972 of the Laws of 1962, 14 relating to the Shelter Rock Public Library. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 16 last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 83, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 5372, an 4 act to amend Chapter 311 of the Laws of 1920, 5 relating to the assessment and collection of 6 taxes in Suffolk County. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 bill's passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 84, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print Number 5803, 19 an act to amend Chapter 708 of the Laws of 20 1992. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay the bill 22 aside. 23 SENATOR LARKIN: For the day. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 2 bill aside for the day at the request of the 3 sponsor. 4 Senator Skelos, that completes 5 the non-controversial calendar, sir. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 7 at this time, if we could take up the 8 controversial calendar. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will read the controversial calendar. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 13, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print Number 514-A, 13 an act to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, 14 in relation to the duties of the Commissioner of 15 Agriculture and Markets. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Senator Kuhl, an explanation has been asked 18 for. 19 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, Mr. 20 President. 21 Yes, Mr. President. This is a 22 bill that's not unfamiliar with this house. 23 It's a bill that quite simply allows and 1 actually directs that the Commissioner of 2 Agriculture and Markets undertake a complete 3 review of all regulations that are currently in 4 existence as they might relate to a detrimental 5 impact regarding to the carrying on of an 6 agricultural industry in the state of New York. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Senator Paterson. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 10 if Senator Kuhl would yield for a question? 11 SENATOR KUHL: Be happy to yield, 12 be happy to. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Senator Kuhl yields. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Kuhl, 16 I don't know anyone who plans to vote against 17 this bill but after coming down, you shouldn't 18 go back without a chance at least to express 19 yourself on this bill; and so, therefore, what 20 I'd like to ask, Mr. President, is in view of 21 the changes that the Governor has made in the 22 Department of Environmental Conservation, do you 23 feel that this bill still has -- has merit since 1 this process is really being done anyway to 2 actually codify this into law since Agriculture 3 and Markets will now, the Commissioner will now 4 make that review? Do you think that that will 5 be done in a more fair way than you might have 6 thought in the past? 7 SENATOR KUHL: Senator Paterson, 8 I'm as pleased as anybody is, I think, in the 9 agricultural industry that there is an internal 10 review being conducted at the present time by 11 the new Commissioner of Agriculture and 12 Markets. I'm also ecstatic about the approach 13 that is being taken by the new Commissioner of 14 the Department of Environmental Conservation as 15 to the regulations that have been promulgated 16 within that department, particularly as they 17 might relate to some instances that might be 18 detrimental to agriculture, and when I decided 19 to bring this bill forward, I had to ask myself 20 the very question that you did, and that was, is 21 it necessary to continue this on in regard - 22 taking into regard what is actually going on 23 with the administration, and my answer was, to 1 myself and to my staff people, because we talked 2 about this in quite some detail, and that was 3 yes, we think it is. 4 We think it's important for the 5 state to establish a policy recognizing that, as 6 Senator Pataki, taking him at his words, will 7 only serve two terms in the mansion which will 8 only take him through, I think, about 19... or 9 excuse me, the year 2002, and that there might 10 be somebody who might at that time enter the 11 Governor's Mansion who might not be as cognizant 12 of the importance of agriculture in the state as 13 is currently recognized by the current Governor. 14 So we thought it was absolutely 15 imperative that we establish a state outlook 16 that regulations can, in fact, be tremendously 17 detrimental to an industry and to actually 18 probably eliminate them, and that it was 19 important to bring this policy matter to this 20 Legislature so that that could be established on 21 a permanent basis. So while I'm encouraged 22 about what is going on with the current 23 administration, I'm not so sure that in the year 1 2002 or thereafter, that a subsequent adminis 2 tration will look as fondly on agriculture as 3 the current Governor does. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 5 much, Senator. 6 Mr. President, that is a well 7 reasoned answer, and also if Senator Kuhl is 8 thinking about what's going to happen in 2003, I 9 guess, based on what's happening here in 1996, 10 he demonstrates seven years of foresight, and so 11 I'm amply convinced and would like to assure 12 Senator Kuhl that in the year 2003 that I would 13 be as cognizant as the previous Governor was. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator Leichter, why do you rise? 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 17 if Senator Kuhl would be so good as to yield. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Senator Kuhl, would you be so good to yield to 20 Senator Leichter? 21 SENATOR KUHL: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator yields. 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator Kuhl, 2 I am sad to say I don't have the same perception 3 and understanding as my colleague, Senator 4 Paterson, has. As I understand it, you felt it 5 was important to tell the Commissioner of Agri 6 culture and the Pataki administration to make 7 this review so that he takes such action in 8 regard to what you consider or what he would 9 consider onerous regulations affecting agricul 10 ture and that these would be changed so that, in 11 the year 2001 when Governor Pataki leaves office 12 at the end of that year, assuming that he stands 13 for reelection or the voters decide that he 14 ought to be re-elected, that we would not have 15 these onerous regulations on the books. 16 Did I correctly understand your 17 reasoning? 18 SENATOR KUHL: Senator, I -- I 19 don't really think it's necessary to tell the 20 current Commissioner that he needs to review the 21 regulations. In my discussions with him, 22 speaking with Commissioner Davidson at our first 23 Agriculture Committee meeting this year, we 1 talked about what the Department was doing 2 relative to the elimination of regulations that 3 might be disadvantageous and detrimental to the 4 actual industry, and he related to the Committee 5 and he related to me and in a number of other 6 conversations, that they are undertaking 7 internally a review of all those regulations and 8 they are, in fact, eliminating some of them. 9 Let me give you a for instance, 10 O.K.? 11 Up until -- I'm not sure what the 12 status of it is right now, but -- because I know 13 it's undergoing change, and it's in the process 14 of being eliminated. But let's take it back to 15 last year. Last year in the early part of the 16 year, it was necessary for every small farm 17 winery in the state of New York to not only be 18 licensed by the State Liquor Authority but also 19 to be licensed -- I should say to file a 20 certificate and get a permit from the Department 21 of Agriculture and Markets. 22 One of the things that came to 23 the forefront was that here we had a six-page 1 application that had to be submitted to the 2 Department of Agriculture and Markets. There 3 was a permit that was issued. It cost each 4 winery, I believe it was $35, and there were 5 roughly, and there are roughly a hundred small 6 farm wineries, wineries totally in the state, 7 little bit more than that, so what we saw was 8 that there was revenue being generated anywhere 9 from 3- to 4,000, and the internal review of 10 this particular regulation and the cost of that 11 not only to the individual farm winery who had 12 to file that, but administratively to actually 13 review the application, to file it, to actually 14 issue the permit and send it out, it was costing 15 the Department 5- to $6,000 to actually process 16 it. 17 So we had a situation where there 18 was a regulation that was yielding information 19 that was already being submitted to the State 20 Liquor Authority and there was a permit being 21 processed for no reasonable reason that was 22 costing the people time and money at the local 23 level. That is, that whole possibility, that 1 whole situation is now being eliminated. 2 Now, that is just one instance of 3 how the current Commissioner is undertaking a 4 total review of what is out there dealing with 5 the agriculture, the Department of Agriculture 6 and Markets. 7 Now, there is another review but 8 from a different aspect that's being taken on by 9 other Commissioners. This particular bill 10 directs that the Commissioner of Agriculture and 11 Markets look at all the other reviews, all other 12 regulations as they relate to other departments 13 and are being promulgated, and that there be a 14 review and, you know, and perhaps an elimination 15 of those. 16 What I'm saying to you is, and 17 what I said to Senator Paterson was or is that I 18 know that this is ongoing right now, and I have 19 every faith in this administration that they 20 will make the burden that is currently being 21 borne by our farmers considerably less so that 22 their chance of profitability and success is 23 going to be greater, but I'm not sure that 1 that's going to continue ad infinitum into the 2 future, and why I think it's important for us to 3 establish that policy now and to create the 4 system so that it will go forward. 5 As you know, and to some degree I 6 think some people find this objectionable, I 7 don't particularly, but the Governor has by 8 executive order set up a new system by which new 9 rules and regulations are promulgated and 10 there's a criteria that they have for that. 11 What this does, I think, is to set up a system 12 that will ensure ad infinitum, those years 13 after, long after you and I have since left this 14 chamber and can't be the watchdogs in the 15 positive aspects of this industry, that we'll 16 have a system in place that we can assure our 17 people out there that only those things that are 18 necessary and right and that are positively 19 aimed at the long-term adoption and development 20 of their industry actually are occurring. 21 So I wouldn't say that this says 22 to the Commissioner that you have to do this. 23 This simply sets up a system that allows him to 1 do it. They're already doing it, but again, it 2 ensures that we will into the future. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. -- Madam 4 President, I thank my good friend for his full 5 some and germane answer, but Senator, if you'd 6 be good enough to yield. 7 SENATOR KUHL: I continue to 8 yield to the Senator. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, in 10 spite of your saying all this faith you have in 11 Commissioner Davidson, and he was a -- a trusted 12 colleague of yours, I believe. 13 SENATOR KUHL: And yours. He 14 served in the Assembly for five years. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: And absolutely 16 mine. But I'm a little concerned about, you 17 know, how trustworthy you are of him because 18 you're the one who's putting forth a bill here 19 which is requiring him to do things that I think 20 he should do anyhow. Now, either you have faith 21 in him or you don't have faith in him. 22 If he has, let me ask you this, 23 Senator: Does the Commissioner now have the 1 power to do everything that's provided in this 2 bill? 3 SENATOR KUHL: I'm not exactly 4 sure it does, Senator, and I just can't. I'd 5 have to -- it would take me some time to pull 6 out the differences for you, but I think it sets 7 forth a format with interaction with some of the 8 other Commissioners that would give him some 9 powers that he doesn't necessarily have. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if 11 you'd - 12 SENATOR KUHL: Now, the other 13 thing that I was going to mention to you is, you 14 know, this is -- and you may not have been in 15 your chair when we first brought this up and 16 when Senator Paterson and I started on this 17 discussion, but I indicated to him when I was 18 asked to give a brief explanation of the bill, I 19 indicated to him that this is not the first time 20 that this bill is before this house. This is 21 the first time that this bill has been before 22 this house when Commissioner Davidson has been 23 Commissioner. As you may remember, there were 1 some other Commissioners who, when we passed 2 this bill, that were of the same political 3 affiliation as you are that were appointed under 4 a previous Governor. They did not care and did 5 not participate into the undertaking of the same 6 kind of review that this Commissioner is 7 undertaking, so what I'm saying to you again and 8 what I said to Senator Paterson, I'm delighted 9 with what this current administration is doing 10 relative to the review of regulations and in 11 particular as they may be detrimental to the 12 agricultural industry. 13 I've been trying for the nine - 14 this is the tenth year that I've been chairman 15 of the Senate Agriculture Committee, to get that 16 review done and it was never done by the 17 previous administration during the nine years 18 that I was that chairman. So I am a little bit 19 skeptical that, if we don't put something like 20 this before and put it into statute, that 21 should, during -- after the time that Governor 22 Pataki decides to not run as he said he wouldn't 23 after two terms, that there might be some other 1 Commissioner, be he Republican or be she 2 Republican or Democrat, that might not have the 3 same familiarity with the detrimental aspects of 4 rules and regulations as they relate to the 5 agricultural industry. 6 So I want to put something there 7 that says this is something we should consider 8 not just today or not -- maybe we should not 9 consider just because it's being done today. I 10 think it's important to us to establish long 11 term state policy because that's what our job 12 is, I believe, and we should do it as it relates 13 to this industry. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam 15 President, if Senator Kuhl would be good enough 16 to continue to yield. 17 SENATOR KUHL: I continue to 18 yield. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I'm 20 getting more and more nervous about what I see, 21 frankly, as seeming -- some seeming lack of 22 trust that you have in this administration 23 because, you know, while the words are very 1 good, the bill is something different and I can 2 understand if you, coming from your political 3 persuasion, didn't have faith in the Democratic 4 administration. 5 Now you've got a Republican 6 administration. You have got your good friend, 7 you tell us, your good friend as Commissioner of 8 Agriculture. The reason you seek to give is 9 that you're really looking to the year 2003 but 10 your bill requires that all of this be done and 11 that a report should be forwarded to the 12 Secretary of State by July 1st, 1998. 13 Is it that you think that 14 Governor Pataki is not going to serve out his 15 full first term? 16 SENATOR KUHL: No, actually, 17 Senator, it's because I know that the Governor 18 is doing such great and wonderful things that I 19 think he ought to file this report to tell 20 everybody what he's doing. That's why -- that's 21 one of the reasons why we're passing this bill. 22 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 23 Leichter. 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator 2 Kuhl would be good enough to continue to yield. 3 SENATOR KUHL: I'd be happy to 4 yield. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah, and I 6 take it your conclusion is that without your 7 prodding the Commissioner and the administra 8 tion saying, You better do this, that they're 9 not going to do their job as you think it should 10 be done. 11 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Kuhl. 12 SENATOR KUHL: Senator, I have 13 seen and known, as you have, I have known for 14 two years now Governor Pataki. I served with 15 him when he was in the Assembly, and I've always 16 noted that he probably -- he was probably one of 17 those more conservative individuals who was not 18 quick to pat himself on the back about all the 19 good things that he's done, and I think it's 20 just one of those things that, you know, this is 21 positive information that the agriculture 22 community ought to know about, you ought to know 23 about, the people in this chamber ought to know 1 about, and it's one of those things that I'm 2 sure if he sets the precedent the right way, 3 that the successor administration will probably 4 follow suit and they'll do the right thing too. 5 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 6 Leichter. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam 8 President, I thank my good friend for his 9 persuasive answer, almost persuasive answer, but 10 frankly I'm a little -- I'm a little surprised 11 and maybe, and it certainly happens to me, maybe 12 it's happening to Senator Kuhl, you just sort of 13 go by reflection. 14 Well, you had this bill in for 15 nine years and suddenly we have to remind him, 16 Well, wait a second, these are your guys now 17 running the show. Why do you have to tell them 18 what they have to do? Aren't they doing their 19 job? 20 I was against this bill in the 21 past because I felt the Commissioner of 22 Agriculture ought to know how to do his or her, 23 or if it's a she, she ought to know how to do 1 the job. I had faith in the previous 2 Commissioners. Some of them maybe didn't do 3 everything we wanted. Well, if they didn't do 4 the job, they shouldn't hold the job, but I 5 don't think it's the role and function of this 6 Legislature to nitpick Commissioners and tell 7 them, Be at your desk at 9:00 a.m., issue this 8 report, issue that report, and particularly - 9 frankly, I didn't know Assemblyman Davidson very 10 well, but I'm sure he was a competent person. 11 I'm sure he's doing a good job. I trust him. I 12 don't think that I, as a legislator or that we 13 as a Legislature, have to tell him, Do this, do 14 this, do that, and for that reason, I've got 15 more faith obviously in this respect at least 16 with Commissioner Davidson and this 17 administration that I don't find it necessary 18 for us to pass this bill. 19 So I'm going to vote in the 20 negative, as I have in the past. 21 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Dollinger. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Madam 23 President, will the sponsor yield to just a 1 couple of questions? 2 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Kuhl. 3 SENATOR KUHL: I'd be happy to 4 yield to Senator Dollinger. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 6 Senator. 7 I just want to follow up on one 8 of the points that Senator Leichter made. Is it 9 my understanding that the current Article 10 25-(aa) of the Agriculture and Markets Law 11 requires all state agencies to review all their 12 regulations to determine whether they serve the 13 industry that you're talking about today, the 14 very important agricultural industry in this 15 state? 16 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Kuhl. 17 SENATOR KUHL: You're asking, 18 Senator, if in fact current law requires a 19 review of all rules and regulations as it 20 relates to their impact on agriculture? 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. 22 SENATOR KUHL: I don't believe 23 that -- that's correct, Senator. 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, again 2 through you, Madam President, if the Senator 3 would continue to yield. The bill recites that 4 Article 25(aa) of the Markets -- Agriculture and 5 Markets Law provides that it shall be the policy 6 of all state agencies to encourage the 7 maintenance of viable farming in agricultural 8 districts and to modify their administrative 9 regulations and procedures to this end. 10 Isn't that exactly what this bill 11 requires them to do? Aren't we telling them to 12 do it twice? 13 SENATOR KUHL: I don't believe 14 so, Senator. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, perhaps 16 for the record - 17 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 18 Dollinger. 19 SENATOR KUHL: You're talking - 20 are you're saying Article 25 requires that? 21 Where are you reading from in the proposed bill 22 that says they're required to review all 23 proposed rules and regulations now? I don't see 1 that in the bill, and I'm not familiar with that 2 aspect. If that were the case, I wouldn't be 3 presenting the bill. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGR: Well, perhaps 5 maybe I've got the wrong document in front of 6 me. I'm looking at the actual bill itself, 7 Number 13 on the calendar, lines 11 through 13, 8 15, doesn't it say Section 25 of the Agriculture 9 and Markets Law provides it shall be the policy 10 of all state agencies? 11 SENATOR KUHL: Right, the 12 maintenance of viable farming. Doesn't say 13 anything -- and this is just under a section 14 which just talks about legislative finding which 15 is the purview of the actual sections of the law 16 that we're adding to the current existing 17 statute, but what we're trying to do is 18 establish that there is policy out there right 19 now that says we're supposed to try to encourage 20 agriculture in the state, but there's nothing in 21 the statute that I'm aware of, Senator, that 22 requires a total review of all rules and 23 regulations as they relate to agriculture and 1 how they they may be related to some other 2 agency that may promulgate them. 3 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 4 Dollinger. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through you, 6 Madam President, if Senator Kuhl will continue 7 to yield? 8 SENATOR KUHL: Be happy to yield. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Article 25 10 (aa) says "***instructs agencies to modify their 11 regulations and procedures to this end; that is, 12 to the end of encouraging viable farming 13 consistent with the protection of public health 14 and safety." Isn't that the same kind of 15 balancing that you want to require under this 16 act? Aren't we asking them to do the same thing 17 twice? 18 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Kuhl. 19 SENATOR KUHL: That's not true, 20 Senator. If you look at the other areas of the 21 statute, let me see if I can find the 22 appropriate section for you. Yes, up on page 2, 23 it's lines 7, 8 and 9, you'll see that the new 1 section that we add here relates to just more 2 than public health and safety, O.K. We're now 3 talking about rules and regulations that are 4 being promulgated in departments like the 5 Department of Environmental Conservation, 6 Department of Health, Department of Labor and 7 the Department of Transportation. 8 So we're not just talking about 9 the areas of public health and safety, we're 10 talking about the overview and the complete 11 carrying on of the conduct of an agricultural 12 employment situation in the state and how any 13 regulations in those various departments may 14 impact negatively. 15 Now, there again, you're - 16 you're kind of inferring something that's there, 17 but it's not there specifically and that's what 18 this bill does specifically is add, to direct 19 this Commissioner to review those regulations 20 and to make a filing with the Secretary of State 21 and to -- and then try to process through 22 eliminating those regulations that may be 23 detrimental to the industry. 1 That we have never done. That, 2 and following up with our conversation with 3 Senator Leichter, that is being done to some 4 degree, but there is not a procedure that 5 there's a filing with the Secretary of State and 6 reviewing specifically each one of those 7 departments. 8 That, as far as I know, there 9 is -- there are two processes going on right now 10 with the current administration. One is that 11 there's an internal review by each department of 12 their own departmental regulations, and then 13 there's an overview being done by Bob King as a 14 person whom you know, from your area, the 15 Director of the Bureau of Regulatory Affairs is 16 his title, and that is being done but I think 17 that to some degree that's being done as a 18 result of some sort of an initiation by people 19 from the outside, people like myself or somebody 20 else who maybe find some -- some concern, and 21 it's not just a total overview, reading statutes 22 or regulations just for the sake of reading 23 them, so what I'm saying and what this does is 1 it specifies particular areas that are done and 2 that include other agencies and, as far as I 3 know, that's not being done and that's where I 4 indicated to Senator Leichter that I thought 5 this was a little bit something different than 6 is being done at the present time. It's 7 something that needed to be dealt with on a 8 long-term basis. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 10 you, Madam President, if the sponsor will 11 continue to yield. 12 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 13 Dollinger. 14 SENATOR KUHL: Be happy to 15 continue to yield. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Are you 17 implying, Senator, that the current standard 18 under Article 25 (aa) is providing that viable 19 farming is consistent with the requirement of 20 public health and safety? Does this bill 21 eliminate the requirement that it consider 22 public health and safety in reviewing these 23 regulations? 1 SENATOR KUHL: No, it ampli... it 2 augments that, I should say, amplifies the 3 approach that we're now looking at in other 4 areas, Senator. We're not eliminating that 5 public health and safety under the current 6 legislation applies. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: All right. So 8 what we're doing is requiring all state agencies 9 to look at whether or not their regulations 10 affect the viability of farming in the state, 11 the importance of the agricultural industry? 12 SENATOR KUHL: No, no, not 13 exactly. We're directing that the Commissioner 14 of Agriculture do that as it relates to other 15 agencies and their potential impact on his 16 industry which he's charged to have this 17 oversight over, and then he -- the process is to 18 engage them if he finds a negative kind of 19 implication, O.K.? That's when they get pulled 20 in. 21 We're not directing each one of 22 those departments to review for agricultural 23 purposes, no. 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm - 2 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 3 Dollinger. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the bill. 5 I have voted for this in the 6 past. I think I'll continue to vote for it 7 although, frankly, it seems to me we're 8 restating perhaps the same instructions we've 9 previously given to the Commissioner, and to all 10 state agencies to continue to protect our vital 11 farming and agricultural industry and at the 12 same time to promote public health and safety. 13 I also am concerned because I 14 guess everybody, once you get into the 15 regulatory reform movement, I guess everybody 16 gets in the act, but it seems to me that poor 17 Mr. King, who is from my district, who's the 18 czar of regulatory reform, is cut out of this - 19 this process, and I have a feeling that his 20 position is going to end up redundant because 21 all these commissioners are going to be doing 22 all the regulatory work, and he'll have nothing 23 to do, which means he might be one of those non 1 essential people that, in a good regulatory 2 environment, we'd just stop paying him and say, 3 We don't need it because the Commissioner can do 4 it. I'd hate to think that someone from my 5 district, from Monroe County, would end up 6 unemployed as a consequence of this move, and 7 I'm concerned about jobs and job employment and 8 certainly, Mr. King who has been a forceful 9 advocate for regulatory reform, why put him out 10 of business? Why not let him do it? Instead, 11 we're going to have the Commissioners do it. 12 I just see a certain redundancy 13 here. I just hate to see someone lose their 14 job, but I'll vote in favor of it. 15 THE PRESIDENT: If everyone who 16 wished to be heard on this bill has been heard, 17 would the Secretary please read the last 18 section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll, 22 please. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 1 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Leichter 2 is raising his hand for negative. Yes. 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50, nays 4 one, Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 5 THE PRESIDENT: O.K. That's - 6 the bill is passed. 7 Senator Farley. 8 SENATOR JOHNSON: Madam 9 President. You want to introduce that? 10 SENATOR FARLEY: Can I do my 11 motion? 12 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yeah. Madam 13 President, we'll have one motion made and then 14 we're going to return to reports of standing 15 committees. 16 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Farley. 17 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Madam 18 President. 19 On page 4, I offer the following 20 amendments to Calendar Number 4, Senate Print 21 5436, and I ask that this bill which is mine 22 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 23 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments 1 received. 2 Senator Johnson. 3 SENATOR JOHNSON: May we return 4 to reports of standing committees. I believe 5 there is a report of the Finance Committee at 6 the desk. 7 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 8 will read. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 10 from the Committee on Finance, offers up the 11 following bill directly for third reading: 12 Senate Print 5817, by Senator 13 Trunzo, an act to amend the Civil Service Law, 14 State Finance Law, in relation to compensation 15 benefits and other terms and conditions of 16 employment. 17 THE PRESIDENT: All bills, 18 without objection -- all bills will go directly 19 to third reading. 20 Secretary will read. 21 SENATOR JOHNSON: Madam 22 President, may we now at this time take up 23 Calendar Number 85. 1 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 2 will read. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo 4 moves to discharge from the Committee on Civil 5 Service and Pensions Assembly Bill Number 8520 6 and substitute it for the identical Calendar 7 Bill Number 85. 8 THE PRESIDENT: Substitution 9 ordered. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 85, by member of the Assembly Vitaliano, 12 Assembly Print 8520, an act to amend the Civil 13 Service Law and the State Finance Law, in 14 relation to compensation, benefits and other 15 terms and conditions of employment. 16 SENATOR JOHNSON: Is there a 17 message of appropriation at the desk? 18 THE PRESIDENT: Yes, there is. 19 SENATOR JOHNSON: Madam 20 President, I move to accept the message of 21 appropriation. 22 THE PRESIDENT: All those in 23 favor of accepting the message of appropriation 1 say aye. 2 (Response of "Aye.") 3 Opposed nay. 4 (There was no response. ) 5 The message is accepted. Read 6 the last section, please. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 12 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 13 passed. 14 Senator Leichter. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah, can I 16 just -- no, there was a reference, Madam 17 President, I think you made to a message of 18 appropriation. Was that a message of necessity? 19 THE PRESIDENT: Appropriation. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Is that the 21 same thing? Has that changed its name? 22 THE PRESIDENT: No. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: I mean, Madam 1 President, I just asked learned counsel who are 2 here, I must say I've never heard message of 3 appropriation and, as I look at the type it 4 seems to be the old -- same old message of 5 necessity. If we change -- if we changed the 6 name, certainly it wasn't done by the 7 Constitution which provides for this. 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: I think a 9 very, very good question. 10 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 11 Stafford. 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: My counsel has 13 provided a very good explanation. I think that 14 all of us can see where we are here. 15 The budget has not passed yet 16 and, therefore, when you pass a bill that 17 includes an appropriation, you have to have the 18 message of appropriation. 19 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, 20 Senator Stafford. 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you. 22 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Johnson. 23 SENATOR JOHNSON: Read the last 1 section, please. 2 THE PRESIDENT: Oh, the bill is 3 passed. 4 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator - 5 THE PRESIDENT: Would you like to 6 return to the controversial calendar? 7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Madam 8 President. Please call up Calendar Number 35, 9 Bill Number 4009-B. 10 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 11 will read. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 35, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill 4009-B, an 14 act to amend the Tax Law, the Labor Law, the 15 General Municipal Law, the State Finance Law, 16 the Executive Law, relating to the rate of 17 interest to be paid by certain public 18 corporations. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 20 THE PRESIDENT: There is a local 21 fiscal impact notice at the desk. 22 Senator Saland. Senator Saland. 23 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Madam 1 President. 2 Madam President, this is the 3 Omnibus Mandate Relief Act. As the name would 4 imply, it's an endeavor to do away with unfunded 5 mandates, an endeavor to in effect give more 6 than lip service to the term of local/state 7 partnerships. 8 The bill deals not only with some 9 40 mandates currently on the books but attempts 10 to deal prospectively with imposition of 11 subsequent mandates. 12 There are six major components of 13 this bill. It would reduce local fiscal 14 burdens. It would permit localities greater 15 flexibility, reduce the burden of state 16 regulations, eliminate unnecessary state 17 reporting and approval requirements, reform 18 municipal liability and encourage fiscal 19 consolidation and cooperation. 20 The sum total of the savings to 21 local governments that are anticipated by 22 enactment of this bill would be approximately 23 $1.5 billion. Not only would that apply to 1 local municipalities. It would apply to local 2 school districts as well. 3 Prospectively, what the bill does 4 is, it says that if there is a proposal that is 5 enacted at the state level, if that proposal 6 would result in a cost of $10 million to any 7 municipality -- $10,000, excuse me, to any 8 municipality, 10,000 or more, the state must 9 provide the funds. If it would result in the 10 aggregate of an expenditure of $1 million or 11 more being required by all the affected 12 municipalities, municipalities of that same 13 class or school districts, the state again must 14 fund the cost. 15 We, in this house, have passed 16 this measure or a similar measure previously. 17 We have the overwhelming support of various 18 municipal organizations, NYSAC, the New York 19 State Association of Towns, the New York 20 Conference of Mayors. 21 The bill certainly is timely and 22 it's particularly timely in two respects: Number 23 one, there have been occasions in which this 1 bill has come out late in the session and has 2 met with criticism that, in fact, it's coming 3 out too late to have any meaningful negotiations 4 with the second floor and with the Assembly. 5 Suffice it to say that the 6 Governor has emphasized on more than one 7 occasion, Governor Pataki, the importance to him 8 of mandate relief, and he also has matched his 9 words with his deeds by passing the Executive 10 Law 20 which provides for our regulatory reform 11 intended to provide mandate relief. 12 On another level, in addition to 13 the actions by the Governor, certainly we're all 14 well aware of the difficult fiscal times not 15 only we are experiencing, but local government 16 and county government is experiencing as well, 17 and the provision of this type of relief 18 certainly will be well received at every level 19 of local government, whether it be urban, 20 suburban or rural. 21 Madam President, thank you. 22 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, 23 Senator. 1 Senator Dollinger. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Will Senator 3 Saland yield to a question? 4 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Saland? 5 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Madam 6 President. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Does this 8 apply to -- Senator, does this bill apply to any 9 state mandate, whether it comes from the 10 Executive Department or from this Legislature? 11 SENATOR SALAND: This bill would 12 apply to any proposal, regardless of whether it 13 was statutory, or I believe regulatory, and I'd 14 have to check the exact language that would 15 require an imposition on any individual unit of 16 a particular type of government, whether it's 17 school district, the town, the village or, as I 18 mentioned earlier in my earlier remarks, in the 19 aggregate a million dollars or more. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 21 you, Madam President, if Senator Saland would 22 yield to another question? 23 SENATOR SALAND: Certainly. 1 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Dollinger. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Are you 3 familiar with the Governor's proposed budget 4 that he sent to this Legislature and what it 5 does to disabled children in the pre-K phase and 6 how it takes a program that is now a hundred 7 percent funded by the state and, instead, 8 transfers the cost of that funding to the local 9 school districts and how it changes the standard 10 for what constitutes a disabled child and, 11 therefore, transfers the cost of those programs 12 to local communities? Are you familiar with 13 that? 14 SENATOR SALAND: I am familiar 15 with that. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. If we 17 vote for this bill, can I assume that everybody 18 who votes for this bill will vote against any 19 budget that has that kind of unfunded mandate in 20 it which would saddle our school districts with 21 increased costs? And that's one question. I 22 guess my second question - 23 SENATOR SALAND: I would think 1 that that issue is far from resolved, and I 2 would think had the other house been cooperative 3 enough as we have labored in the vineyards with 4 this bill for some two or three -- on two or 5 three separate occasions, had they been willing 6 to join us in this effort, we certainly would 7 have rendered the question which you raise 8 academic or moot. We are dealing within the 9 framework that we currently have and certainly I 10 would think if we could get this bill to the 11 Governor's desk, I think that would certainly 12 impart a message that he would welcome as much 13 as he's already given certainly his efforts 14 through his executive orders to try and curb 15 unfunded mandates. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 17 you, Madam President, if Senator Saland will 18 yield to a question. 19 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Saland? 20 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Madam 21 President. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm just 23 intrigued by what you see as the Governor's 1 motivation. I mean he obviously sent us a 2 budget which creates unfunded mandates for 3 special education for disabled children, pre-K, 4 and yet he issues executive orders saying we're 5 not going to have unfunded mandates. 6 Perhaps you could enlighten me: 7 What's the Governor's position on unfunded 8 mandates since he has them in his budget but he 9 issues executive orders and at least proclaims 10 to be interested in ending unfunded mandates? 11 Why would he put that in the budget? 12 SENATOR SALAND: I think the 13 Governor certainly has been more than direct in 14 his comments on unfunded mandates. I certainly 15 think that the issue is far from a dead issue 16 vis-a-vis the expenditure that you're talking 17 about, and I suspect that the Governor, as this 18 legislation progresses certainly will lend 19 himself to supporting this legislation although 20 in all candor, I haven't spoken with him about 21 the particulars of this piece. 22 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 23 Dollinger. 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Madam 2 President, on the bill. 3 I appreciate the sponsor's candor 4 with respect to that program. It's certainly 5 one that I'm going to be looking at very 6 carefully in the context of the budget because I 7 don't want to shift a cost that's been borne by 8 the state and shift that to local communities 9 and still require that that education occur, and 10 I agree with Senator Saland, it probably is an 11 issue that we need to discuss further. 12 I know there may be strong 13 sentiments on the other side of the aisle 14 against shifting those kinds of costs, but it 15 strikes me as somewhat anomalous for a governor 16 to proclaim Executive Law change or, excuse me, 17 changes through executive orders to eliminate 18 unfunded mandates and to talk a great game about 19 unfunded mandates, but yet the budget that we 20 see in front of us could transfer, based on my 21 estimate, as much as a billion and a half 22 dollars of additional cost to local communities 23 which we're not going to have to pay for because 1 things that we've paid for in the past the 2 Governor has said we're not going to pay for 3 because we're going to take care of our budget 4 problems and give all of the rest of the fund 5 ing problems to local communities. 6 Now, I'm concerned because I hear 7 the Governor on the second floor saying that 8 this is something that they don't want to do, 9 but yet when the budget hits our desks, and it's 10 already hit our desks, there are enormous shifts 11 of costs from state finance to local community 12 finance and no relief from the mandates to do it 13 and I just -- I hear one thing, and I see 14 another and although I'm going to vote in favor 15 of this bill -- I've voted for it in the past - 16 I think if we could have a legitimate debate 17 about what the state ought to pay for and what 18 local communities ought to pay for and what's 19 the best way to raise taxes to pay for it, the 20 fairest and most equitable way to do it, we'd go 21 a long way in this state to solving our long 22 term fiscal problems. 23 So I've voted for this in the 1 past. I think it's something that has appeal 2 out there, but I think the underlying issue of 3 how we ought to pay for these things, how we 4 ought to tax to pay for them, is one we ought to 5 debate into the future so that we can have a 6 legitimate debate about how we can raise those 7 taxes and how to pay for tax programs that 8 benefit everybody. 9 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 10 Paterson. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 12 Madam President. If Senator Saland would yield 13 for a question. 14 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Saland? 15 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Madam 16 President. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 18 Madam President. 19 Senator Saland, Senator Dollinger 20 just raised an issue about the unfunded mandates 21 and to follow up on that -- I'm not here -- to 22 follow up on that, I'd like to ask you, Senator 23 Saland, in Section 23 of the legislation, you 1 set forth that the Governor can, by executive 2 order, exercising his emergency powers, in a 3 sense exact an unfunded mandate, and I think you 4 also have some language in there that allows for 5 court order. 6 With respect to anything that is 7 agreed upon in a legislative process such as the 8 budget, have you not in this legislation given 9 the Governor, the executive branch, a new 10 authority that it did not have before based on 11 your distinction of it and your acceptance of 12 those mandates that are forced through executive 13 order? 14 SENATOR SALAND: May I request of 15 you that you point to the particular line or 16 lines that - 17 SENATOR PATERSON: It's in 18 Section 23. 19 SENATOR SALAND: I have section 20 23, but what lines? 21 SENATOR PATERSON: It says *** 22 the Governor, exercising executive order through 23 emergency powers. 1 SENATOR SALAND: You're talking 2 over on page 10? 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 4 SENATOR SALAND: I don't think 5 that there is any effort here to expand the 6 ability of any executive to indiscriminately or 7 capriciously impose additional mandates, and let 8 me address your -- your question and hopefully 9 simultaneously Senator Dollinger's concluding 10 remarks. 11 I think it's unfair to portray 12 Governor Pataki as somehow or other not being an 13 advocate of mandate relief. I think any view of 14 this particular budget that he's proposed, when 15 one looks at what the Governor is proposing to 16 do in areas of welfare reform, what the Governor 17 is proposing to do in areas of Medicaid reform, 18 he certainly is dealing with mandates and - 19 mandates which impose heavy burdens on our local 20 and county governments. 21 So I think it's certainly an 22 unfair characterization to somehow or other come 23 up with a number of some amount of dollars that 1 I believe Senator Dollinger had said something 2 in the area of a billion and a half dollars. I 3 don't think that that actually reflects what the 4 Governor has managed to do and has accomplished 5 here. 6 They're certainly -- we don't 7 have the ability, and I think you and I could 8 agree, to negate a requirement that's been 9 imposed by court order and that is the first 10 provision which is set forth within the 11 exemptions. 12 Secondly, there's provision where 13 in fact there is an emergency of some kind for 14 the Governor to enact through his emergency 15 powers. Now, those emergency powers may require 16 local law enforcement, in the case of the flood 17 perhaps, to close off state highways. That - 18 those emergency powers can include any number of 19 different types of things which would occur only 20 under those situations that were very much out 21 of the ordinary. 22 There are just not many 23 situations in which the Governor or any -- any 1 executive resorts to the imposition of emergency 2 powers. 3 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 4 Paterson. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 6 much, Madam President, and I want to thank 7 Senator Saland for that answer. 8 It was hard to interpret from 9 what Section 23 revealed and that's cleared up. 10 I would like to refer you to 11 Section 4, Senator Saland, which exempts the 12 OSHA requirements for volunteer firefighters, 13 and I would like to really aver that there is 14 certainly an understanding of why you might want 15 to do that as a lot of the local governments 16 can't afford the -- the effect of reaching the 17 standard that OSHA calls for, but at the same 18 time we do not think that it is in many respects 19 at the risk of the volunteer firefighter who may 20 not be prepared for the emergency, and then the 21 individual who is in the position of being 22 victimized not only by the fact that they're in 23 a fire but by the fact that people who they 1 think are skilled and trained to help them 2 actually don't have the skills, the training or 3 often the equipment that they might need. 4 SENATOR SALAND: Well - 5 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Saland. 6 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Madam 7 President. 8 Well, this particular section of 9 the bill really responds to one of the 10 priorities that many, if not most -- in fact, I 11 would say most local volunteer fire companies 12 would like to see enacted. Some number of years 13 ago, the Department of Labor enacted or perhaps 14 more appropriately, in effect, proclaimed that 15 volunteer firefighters were municipal employees 16 and, therefore, were required to be subject to 17 OSHA. 18 Now, volunteer firefighters, for 19 insurance purposes and really by reason of 20 compliance with our state's particular 21 requirements, do receive training. They are 22 people who are at risk. They are people who 23 understand risk. They are people who are 1 saying, We can't comply other than at great 2 expense and extraordinary difficulty with these 3 OSHA requirements, whether they're equipment 4 requirements, whether they're such things as 5 physicals or retaining records on-site. 6 Now, there are a number of 7 volunteer fire companies who, while they go 8 ahead and have the required physicicals, don't 9 have a full-time clerk or don't have somebody 10 on-site who would retain these records and 11 they're in violation by merely having them at a 12 physician's office, and if my memory serves me 13 correctly, when we debated this particular point 14 it was either last year or the year before, 15 Senator Cook pointed out to you because he has a 16 bill which is a free-standing bill somewhat 17 substantially like this bill, that he had run 18 into a number of difficulties within his 19 district within which he has a number of small 20 volunteer fire companies. 21 The firefighters, volunteer 22 firefighters, are not troubled in the main by 23 this provision. In fact, they are the ones who 1 want it. 2 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 3 Paterson. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 5 Thank you, Madam President. 6 Section 5 of this legislation 7 which calls for a relaxation of the standards of 8 asbestos removal on state buildings to 9 coordinate it with that of a number of other 10 facilities, the issue here, Senator Saland, is 11 that many of the old state facilities are 12 actually the ones that have been shown by 13 research to have high levels of asbestos so; to 14 relax these standards and, in a sense, not keep 15 the current standard that we have for asbestos 16 removal, in my opinion, would jeopardize workers 17 and jeopardize those members of the public that 18 frequent those buildings quite often. 19 Would you explain for us why you 20 have chosen to leave this section in the 21 legislation after last year? 22 SENATOR SALAND: Well, number 23 one, this particular section of the bill deals 1 only with the exterior of buildings. We're 2 talking about roofs, and what we're saying 3 within this bill, within this particular section 4 of the bill, is that the current standards which 5 are controlled by Department of Labor, are so 6 difficult and so costly, costing local 7 governments and school districts somewhere in 8 the area of $175 million, and I'm told by 9 representatives of roofing contractors that they 10 think the figure is closer to $400 million, that 11 what we could do is use the very same standard 12 that the private sector uses, the same standard 13 that they use when they do a major industrial 14 job, the same standard that I believe is the 15 prevalent standard in other states which is the 16 OSHA standard, the same standards that we were 17 talking about with regard to the fire section of 18 the bill. Certainly OSHA is not renowned for 19 being insensitive to regulatory enactments, 20 regulatory enforcement, and the private sector 21 certainly has not had any horror stories -- I'm 22 not aware of any stories of illnesses occurring 23 to people who are complying with the OSHA 1 requirements. I'm not aware of any tragedies of 2 any kind. 3 We're talking about really major 4 savings every level of government, every type of 5 government, whether it's municipal, whether it's 6 county, whether it's school district. This 7 would be, I'm sure, thoroughly embraced inas 8 much as the vast majority of that conserva 9 tively $175 million is coming directly from real 10 property taxes, certainly outside of the major 11 urban areas that's the case. 12 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 13 Paterson. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: How are you 15 holding up, Senator? 16 SENATOR SALAND: Very well. I 17 recall last time you told me there would be 18 about 250, so I'm assuming you're just warming 19 up? 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, we're 21 just getting warmed up. You should feel like a 22 contestant on a quiz show, and this preparation 23 was not fixed in any way, and we move on to 1 Section 6. 2 This would allow for a variable 3 interest rate to be set by the Commissioner of 4 Taxation on awards that are won against a 5 municipality. My first question is, how does 6 the Commissioner arrive at what the interest 7 rate will be and, if you want to go on from 8 there, the second question would be why would we 9 allow for really what would be such a subjective 10 standard to be applied to a recovery that was 11 already won in court, and wouldn't that, in a 12 sense, constitutionally limit the recovery or, 13 in a sense, even put somewhat of a cap on the 14 recovery? 15 SENATOR SALAND: What this - 16 currently, the interest rate in the state of New 17 York on judgments is 9 percent. What this 18 section does is, it proposes to create a 19 floating rate, a variable rate, which I believe 20 has a minimum of 6 percent, a maximum of 9 21 percent, and the bill language, I believe, 22 refers to the current authority of the 23 Commissioner to fix this rate. I think he does 1 it by publication through the State Register, 2 and I'm not quite sure if I could even hazard a 3 guess as to what that mechanism is, but it makes 4 reference to the existing law. There is 5 something on the books by which the Commissioner 6 is governed. 7 I have not received any memos or 8 any expressions of concern that somehow or other 9 the Commissioner was delinquent in his 10 responsibility in fixing that rate. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Madam 12 President, if Senator Saland would continue to 13 yield. 14 Therefore - 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Senator Paterson, there's been a slight change. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Sorry. You 18 look just like her from here. 19 Senator Saland, therefore, you're 20 not sure what the actual -- what the actual 21 mechanism is that's used to make the 22 determination? 23 SENATOR SALAND: What I'm telling 1 you, in all candor, is that we're merely hooking 2 into what the existing mechanism is. I could 3 not define that mechanism. There is an existing 4 mechanism. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 6 if Senator Saland would continue to yield. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Senator, will you continue to yield? 9 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 10 President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 12 yields, sir. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: What disturbs 14 me then is, if a person wins a judgment at the 15 rate of 9 percent at the time that the judgment 16 is reached, how can the Commissioner, therefore, 17 reduce the rate and, therefore, reduce the 18 recovery? In other words, isn't that kind of 19 post hoc, ergo propter hoc meaning after the 20 fact, therefore, before the fact? 21 SENATOR SALAND: I would think 22 that that would be a strained interpretation of 23 the ability of the Commissioner. I don't think 1 we could, in an ex post facto fashion go back 2 and reduce that interest. If the judgment had 3 been docketed, then the determination of the 4 amount of interest to be paid would, in fact, be 5 whatever was the rate fixed at the time and, if 6 it was 9 percent, it would be 9 percent 7 notwithstanding the fact that it might be 8 reduced later. If it was 8 percent, it would be 9 8 percent, and similarly if it was 6 percent and 10 the rate was subsequently higher, the 6 percent 11 rate would be the controlling rate. It would 12 not apply to judgments, again, already 13 docketed. The rate that prevailed at the time 14 it was docketed would be the prevailing rate. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: That's very 16 good, Senator. I now understand that. 17 My problem is that it doesn't say 18 that in the bill. You're telling me that. 19 Would it not be a little more foresighted to 20 make that clear because that actually changes my 21 feeling about the whole thing? If you want to 22 adjust the rate variably over time, I understand 23 that, but what it appears from the legislation 1 and maybe I'm just misreading it, is that it 2 would allow for the Commissioner to adjust after 3 the fact and it does not indicate that this is a 4 standard that's being set, not something that 5 would apply to any previous jurisdictional 6 procedures that had actually taken place. 7 SENATOR SALAND: I'm a little 8 reluctant to respond. I'm not quite sure if 9 that was a question or a statement. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, it was a 11 question. The question is, don't you think this 12 needs to be made clearer by the writing of the 13 bill more than as of the interpretation that 14 you've given me which does make me understand 15 what you're trying to do a lot better? What I'm 16 saying is, I would never have come to that 17 conclusion having just read this. 18 SENATOR SALAND: Well, Senator 19 Paterson, what I will have my office do is take 20 a look at the controlling language which is in 21 the Tax Law and see if that sheds any light on 22 our dilemma. I'm comfortable with this language 23 and don't feel that it imposes any particularly 1 onerous burden and, in fact, I think what it 2 does is, again says to local government that - 3 well, county government or city government, that 4 they're not going to pay artificially high 5 interest rates at times when they truly would be 6 in excess of markets rates or prevailing rates. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 8 much, Senator. That would actually be very 9 helpful. It could be just me. I'm having 10 enough trouble trying to determine the gender of 11 the presiding officer. It could just be me, but 12 I'd like you to know that the Trial Lawyers 13 Association pointed that out in its memorandum, 14 they do not think it's set forth clearly. Maybe 15 this is something that we can work on later. 16 I would like to move to Section 17 32. 18 SENATOR SALAND: Pheeew! I 19 breathe a sigh of relief, Senator Paterson. I 20 was concerned we were going to do this a section 21 at a time. And this is not a challenge. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: We -- what I'm 23 going to do to expedite the process, I'm going 1 to link Section 32 to Section 36 and 37, Section 2 32 relating to the imposition of payment for 3 parole by those who are seeking it, and Section 4 36 and 37 has to do with medical services and 5 the like that non-indigent inmates would be 6 paying for. This is basically in the same 7 spirit, and so I thought I would link it just to 8 ask you the question again, how do we 9 objectively determine who can and cannot pay for 10 services when they are an inmate? 11 It's not as if, if you can't pay 12 for services and you're an inmate, we're going 13 to throw you out of the prison. It's more what 14 I think you're trying to accomplish is that 15 those individuals who can afford to pay for 16 those services should be paying for them and the 17 crime they've committed against society should 18 not absolve them of that responsibility, but the 19 situation at hand is that it's very hard to make 20 that determination since we are actually holding 21 the person because of the fact that they are 22 accused or have committed a crime or they're now 23 on parole, and we're asking them to pay for 1 services. 2 SENATOR SALAND: May -- again, 3 may I ask if you could conclude that with a 4 question. I may have missed it because I was 5 trying to read the sections as you were 6 talking. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm very 8 sorry. The question is what is determining the 9 ability of an individual to pay for medical care 10 or other services that they would require while 11 incarcerated? 12 SENATOR SALAND: I believe those 13 elements, the factors to be considered are 14 enumerated as financial resources, assets and 15 expenses, health, age, current child support and 16 maintenance, court orders, outstanding court 17 orders, fines or restitution, current income 18 executions or income deduction orders and any 19 other factor which the court shall expressly 20 find to be just and proper. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Senator, 22 for instance, if I could put this question on 23 the table. You're not just saying that a person 1 can afford it. You're saying that if we 2 determine that they're non-indigent and I'm 3 saying that it's not a hard determination to 4 make to tell a person that you shouldn't be 5 indigent as opposed to telling them that they 6 are indigent, and what I'm saying is, I don't 7 understand how we make that determination or 8 couldn't that be a standard that would apply to 9 everybody who is incarcerated and needs medical 10 care or other services? 11 SENATOR SALAND: I think the 12 court, in the first instance, would determine 13 whether or not the person was possessed of 14 sufficient assets so as to be the subject of 15 this particular section. If, in fact, the 16 determination of indigency was made, then this 17 section would not apply. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, you've 19 got some ability to earn, "such means" language 20 in here, and so it wouldn't necessarily be a 21 standard determined by the person's current 22 position. It sounds to me that it could be 23 determinative of the conclusion that this 1 individual may not now, but can in the future, 2 and therefore, theoretically would it not be 3 correct to -- to ask the person to pay and to 4 pay back after they have left the facility? And 5 I'm just saying, I just think it opens the door 6 in such a way that it's very hard to make that 7 determination. That's my point, and - 8 SENATOR SALAND: Well, I think 9 what we've endeavored to do with this language 10 is to provide, in effect, general standards and 11 certainly the -- the catch-all provision and any 12 other factor is one that's sufficiently general 13 to permit each case to turn on its own facts and 14 circumstances. 15 We obviously don't have the 16 ability to -- as legislators, to review each and 17 every one of these types of applications and 18 make the kinds of determinations that you would 19 defer to a court on, and I'm comfortable with 20 the language. It seems to me that it's well 21 within the realm of what courts do and what 22 courts should do. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 1 Senator Saland. 2 I want to move to Section 40 3 which relates to non-polluting landfills. In 4 this particular section, though the non 5 polluting landfill is called that because it has 6 not met the threshold of what would be 7 determined to be a polluter, the fact that it 8 can remain may be, in a sense, the catalyst for 9 an environmental standard that exceeds the 10 pollution threshold in the future, and so what I 11 would like to know is how do we make the 12 determination that a non-polluting landfill 13 today is not a hazard tomorrow if we're not 14 going to pay any more attention to it, as 15 Section 40 reveals in this legislation? 16 SENATOR SALAND: Well, among the 17 requirements that are imposed by this section 18 are that the site in which the -- the landfill 19 site would be equipped with monitoring wells 20 which are consistent with DEC regulations and 21 demonstrate that the landfill is not releasing 22 contaminants that exceed whatever would be 23 permissible under the Department's guidelines, 1 that it has only received solid waste, that it 2 no longer is receiving solid waste, that it is 3 not listed on DEC's registry of inactive 4 hazardous waste sites and has not received any 5 financial assistance to close, if at any time 6 the monitoring well indicates pollution levels 7 that threaten the surrounding community -- the 8 municipality -- and DEC, the Department of 9 Environmental Conservation, shall establish a 10 time frame within which that municipality would 11 have to close its landfill. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, 13 obviously, the landfill has been cited for clos 14 ure and that's exactly the point that I'm making 15 that it didn't really have the funds to close 16 the facility, but it is considered to be non 17 polluting, so what I'm saying is, at a point in 18 the future, if the site becomes a hazard, how is 19 DEC going to monitor this? 20 SENATOR SALAND: DEC would mon 21 itor it in the very same fashion that it cur 22 rently monitors. The well is being monitored. 23 There -- by definition, it has to be monitored 1 and if, in fact there are environmental 2 problems, there's a requirement that they be 3 remedied, and I would assume that that would 4 begin the process anew. 5 If, in fact, the condition is 6 such that it required immediate remediation, 7 then that particular municipality would, based 8 upon a determination by the Department of 9 Environmental Conservation -- Department of 10 Environmental Conservation, would have to 11 remediate. 12 If, in fact, in the opinion of 13 DEC, who is in charge of enforcement, that 14 particular landfill site did not constitute the 15 kind of threat that required closure, there 16 might be some type of mitigating action that the 17 town could take or the village or the city. 18 This is a particularly onerous 19 and burdensome requirement that has really 20 caused many communities in this state, partic 21 ularly smaller communities great financial dis 22 tress, burdened their taxpayers immeasurably. 23 We're not saying that there should not be 1 compliance. What we're saying is where, in 2 fact, we have non-polluting landfill sites that 3 are being monitored and there are no hazardous 4 wastes at the site, then we're going to permit 5 you, subject to continuing monitoring and the 6 commitment that you're going to remedy or 7 mitigate should, in fact, there be a problem, 8 not to have to go through with the closure. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Therefore, 10 Senator, if you would yield for another 11 question, there's no change in the monitoring 12 procedure? In other words, after this 13 determination is made, it will still be 14 monitored the same way. 15 The only reason I ask this 16 question is because what you've just said seems 17 to make a lot of sense to me, but it almost 18 seems to be contradicted in Section 85 of the 19 legislation later on where you seem to be 20 diminishing the responsibility of local 21 governments. 22 SENATOR SALAND: Well, that's an 23 entirely different question. 85 deals with a 1 different issue. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: O.K. Then 3 leave that alone. My question is here that we 4 can really expect that there's no change in what 5 DEC's monitoring requirements are after they've 6 declared the land to be a non-polluter. 7 SENATOR SALAND: There will be 8 monitoring wells that are required on-site and 9 as long -- monitoring of wells that are required 10 on-site and as long as there is no polluting 11 condition and the well is being monitored, they 12 will, in effect, have the closure deferred. 13 They will not have to close the site. It may 14 well be at some point further down the road that 15 those monitors will indicate the presence of a 16 condition that requires, as I said earlier, 17 either mitigation or remediation. 18 85, Senator Paterson, is an 19 entirely different proposition. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: O.K. I 21 understand that. I just thought that it was the 22 spirit of it. 23 Senator Saland, you'll be happy 1 to know that I hold in my hand the envelope that 2 holds the last question. 3 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, sir. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Section 130 of 5 the legislation which allows for alternative 6 procedures to be used in adopting state regu 7 lations, here there is a great concern that 8 there is a time period in which the local 9 governments can come back and ask for clarifi 10 cation. When the time period expires apparently 11 from your legislation, the local government can 12 adopt some of their own alternative procedures. 13 If that's the case - 14 SENATOR SALAND: Senator 15 Paterson, I'm sorry. Did you say 130 or 131? 16 I'm just looking for the language as you're 17 speaking? 18 SENATOR PATERSON: It starts at 19 130; I think it goes into 131. 20 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: I'll check 22 myself. 23 Senator Saland, the question I 1 asked you was about Section 131, but it starts 2 at 130. 3 SENATOR SALAND: I see. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Relating to 5 the alternative procedures. 6 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator 7 Paterson, could I interrupt you for a moment? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Senator Johnson. 10 SENATOR JOHNSON: Would you 11 please read the last section so Senator Gold can 12 vote? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Read 14 the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator Gold, 18 how do you vote? 19 SENATOR GOLD: No. 20 SENATOR JOHNSON: All right. 21 Withdraw the roll call, proceed with the 22 debate. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 1 Senator Paterson, please. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 3 Saland, Section 131 sets forth the logistics of 4 how this would be arrived at. Section 130 just 5 has the alternative procedures for implementing 6 what would be a state mandate, and my question 7 to you is, isn't this a way that the community 8 can avoid the implementation by throwing up a 9 lot of questions, hoping the state misses the 10 response time and then implementing their own 11 procedures that probably don't reach the spirit 12 of what the legislation was intended for in the 13 first place, or what the mandate calls for? 14 SENATOR SALAND: Well, Senator 15 Paterson, I do not believe it to be so. You may 16 recall in my opening remarks I said something to 17 the effect that what we wanted to do is truly 18 create a mechanism that -- that provided for a 19 local/state partnership. 20 (The Minority Leader's phone 21 rings.) 22 Bring home the milk and don't 23 forget to get a dozen eggs. 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 2 Senator. 3 SENATOR SALAND: And what we've 4 -- what we're -- what we're attempting to do 5 here is basically provide - 6 (The Minority Leader's phone 7 rings.) 8 That was a question analogous to 9 "is the moon high". 10 Senator, the statement you made 11 in the beginning, I think does reflect that the 12 spirit of this legislation which I think is 13 designed to save local governments a lot of 14 money including a billion dollars, what I would 15 suggest is that it touches on so many different 16 issues that it makes it very difficult to 17 address them singularly since they affect so 18 many citizens in so many different ways. They 19 affect workers; they affect agencies. They 20 affect the relationship between state and local 21 governments, in spite of the fact that there are 22 really some rather innovative procedures here. 23 That's why I asked you about 1 Section 130 and Sections 130 and 131 rather, 2 because of the importance that we feel to the 3 information transferred through this entire 4 legislation. There are local governments that 5 often oppose state mandates and this, I think, 6 gives them an option. 7 I want to thank you for being as 8 willing to answer all these questions and as 9 gracious as you always are and, on the bill, Mr. 10 President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Senator Paterson, on the bill. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: For the 14 reasons previously stated, we wanted to oppose 15 the bill, but would want to encourage Senator 16 Saland in the future that perhaps by bifurcating 17 the process and splitting these legislations 18 maybe even into the six areas that he defined in 19 his preamble, it might make it a little easier 20 for us to vote on it because many of the members 21 here like some of the innovative changes and 22 respect them, but there are some issues here 23 relating to the asbestos removal, relating to 1 the -- relating to the Occupational Safety and 2 Health Act as it applies to volunteer 3 firefighters, what seems to be a sort of 4 revolving tax rate for the recovery of 5 judgments, and also with respect to the 6 responsibility of those who are in the criminal 7 justice system to pay for some of their 8 incarceration. 9 For those and other reasons I'd 10 like to oppose this legislation. Thank you. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Senator Abate. 13 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. Would 14 Senator Saland yield to a couple questions? 15 SENATOR SALAND: Certainly, 16 Senator. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Senator Saland, do you yield? He yields, 19 Senator. 20 SENATOR ABATE: Senator, I'm sure 21 you're aware that this year probation -- aid to 22 probation has received about a $13 million cut 23 under the Governor's proposal, and I make the 1 assumption that this mandate relief for 2 probation is done in order to save the 3 localities and the probation departments some 4 money. Would not that be a fair assumption? 5 SENATOR SALAND: I'm sorry. 6 Would you repeat again? 7 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. Does the 8 mandate relief as envisioned under Section 32 9 which would require convicted felons to 10 reimburse the department for their probation 11 supervision, it would be a fair assumption that 12 this provision was put in place because there 13 was some recognition this would save the 14 localities some dollars and the probation 15 department could, in fact, collect from the 16 probationers; is that a fair assessment? 17 SENATOR SALAND: It's -- yeah, 18 it's an effort where resources are available to 19 permit the probation department, whether it be 20 the county or the City, to access -- the ability 21 to access those dollars. 22 SENATOR ABATE: O.K. Are you 23 aware that many of the probation departments 1 around the state do not support this provision 2 and, in fact, would like it to be optional, let 3 it be an optional determination made by the 4 locality? Are you aware of that? 5 SENATOR SALAND: I'm not aware of 6 that, but I -- I would be hard-pressed to figure 7 out why, where there are assets available, a 8 probation department would not wish to access 9 those dollars. 10 SENATOR ABATE: Is that a 11 question being posed? Can I answer the 12 question? 13 SENATOR SALAND: Oh, no, I just 14 pose it rhetorically; that's all. 15 SENATOR ABATE: Well, it's my 16 understanding, and maybe you can refute it, that 17 there are some probation departments who have 18 the majority of the people under their 19 supervision who are indigent and earn, even 20 though they know that it may be only a tiny 21 percentage, I mean a very tiny percentage of the 22 people under probation could they ever collect 23 money from, they would have to put in place an 1 entire administrative apparatus to get that 2 information in every pre-sentence investigation 3 report. They'd have to collect information. 4 They'd have to investigate those cases to give 5 the court information to show whether someone is 6 indigent or whether they're capable of paying. 7 So there are many departments have reached the 8 conclusion the cost of doing the analysis, doing 9 the investigation, would exceed any possibility 10 they would have of collecting any revenue from 11 these probationers. 12 SENATOR SALAND: I know, I 13 believe, in a former life, I won't say -- I 14 believe in a former life you were an assistant 15 district attorney? 16 SENATOR ABATE: Well, I was the 17 Commissioner of Probation. 18 SENATOR SALAND: Oh, Commissioner 19 of Probation. 20 SENATOR ABATE: But that could 21 happen, and also I've heard from the 22 Commissioner of Probation in New York City again 23 that they don't support this, and I've spoken to 1 probation departments around the state. Some 2 feel that they're only going to be able to 3 collect these fees from a very small portion of 4 that -- of the population they supervise and, 5 therefore, they believe they're going to lose 6 money again under this proposal. 7 SENATOR SALAND: It's -- I must 8 tell you it's inconceivable to me that a 9 probation department, in the course of doing its 10 pre-sentence determination -- and you certainly 11 would have more experience than I -- doesn't 12 include factors such as health, age, outstanding 13 child support maintenance orders, outstanding 14 court ordered fines, financial resources. That 15 -- I'm assuming that's pretty routine stuff, 16 some of which has been pre-screened already 17 because the defendant may well have made an 18 application to be -- to be either serviced by 19 assigned counsel or to be serviced by - 20 represented by a public defender's office or its 21 equivalent in the City -- I forget, Legal 22 Services? 23 SENATOR ABATE: DJA, Division - 1 SENATOR SALAND: I don't think 2 you're talking that large of a universe here, I 3 really don't. 4 SENATOR ABATE: Well, my under 5 standing is that those kinds of investigations 6 in depth are not being done and so there would 7 be a need to develop more resources in order to 8 carry out this function, and the fear of many 9 departments, particularly when now they're going 10 to be operating with less revenue, that they 11 will take needed critical resources away from 12 supervision functions and they're now 13 supervising tens of thousands of people on the 14 streets and need more monitoring, more 15 supervision. 16 It's a public safety issue, and 17 my concern, and I ask you if you share my 18 concern, if the Senator will yield to another 19 question? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Senator, do you continue to yield? 22 SENATOR ABATE: -- that these 23 probation departments are undergoing enormous 1 stress. They're being asked to receive even 2 less dollars from the state. The reimbursement 3 will be going from 32 percent, I believe, to 25 4 percent. They'll be receiving less state 5 dollars, to demand of them to take on an 6 additional function that will not necessarily 7 reap additional revenue, is that an appropriate 8 mandate for us to pass in this Legislature? 9 SENATOR SALAND: Well, I'm 10 assuming then - 11 SENATOR ABATE: If, in fact, this 12 is the case. 13 SENATOR SALAND: I'm assuming 14 then that, if that amount of money, the $13.4 15 million, is restored that you would support this 16 provision and that the probation departments, 17 the various and sundry probation departments to 18 which you make reference, would also support 19 this provision, so I -- I would think we could 20 render that academic by merely being successful 21 in our efforts to restore those dollars. 22 SENATOR ABATE: Well, I agree 23 with you. I think there is a need to restore 1 that $13 million, but I also believe that we 2 should be looking to the probation department to 3 see if, in fact -- and I don't mean just New 4 York City, I mean statewide -- to see if, in 5 fact, this is mandate relief. 6 Many of the people under their 7 supervision who are misdemeanants, particularly 8 Nassau County and Suffolk County, they believe 9 they can collect these revenues if it were 10 misdemeanants, people who are charged with the 11 traffic infractions. I don't know whether this 12 will reap any positive impact on many of the 13 departments. 14 Having no knowledge otherwise - 15 on the bill. There are - 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Senator Abate, on the bill. 18 SENATOR ABATE: There are a 19 number of provisions I could support and a 20 number I can't. These are ones that I have not 21 heard any information that it will help 22 probation statewide. In fact, I believe it will 23 hurt them. It's not a mandate relief and, for 1 this and other reasons, I can not support the 2 bill. 3 Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 133. 7 This act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Call the roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 12 President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Senator Leichter. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 16 may I explain my vote, please. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Senator Leichter to explain his vote. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah, Mr. 20 President. I was going to debate this bill but 21 I think it was well covered by Senator Paterson, 22 Senator Abate, Senator Dollinger and others. 23 Somehow, when I see this bill 1 being presented, Senator Saland, what comes to 2 mind is some guy at a bar putting down his tenth 3 shot of whiskey and saying, Nobody ought to 4 drink. I don't mean that as a literal metaphor, 5 but this Majority when -- since I've been here 6 has imposed mandate after mandate after 7 mandate. 8 I wonder how many mandates we're 9 going to see this year. I know you're always 10 imposing mandates on the city of New York and 11 telling us how to run our police department, and 12 so on. Then you come up with this bill, and "I 13 am so pure, I'm never going to take another 14 drink. I am against all mandates." 15 But this bill goes beyond -- I 16 looked through it, and I find all of Senator 17 Bruno's old bills for the last five years or ten 18 years, like the landfill and the other bills. I 19 mean this is sort of like "the Senator Joe Bruno 20 grab bag." 21 But all kidding aside, I'm always 22 suspicious and uneasy when we put up a bill 23 which says, "I'm not going to do it any more." 1 I don't think we should do it if it's wrong. 2 But I have enough faith in the membership here, 3 and there may be times when we will impose a 4 mandate. There certainly are too many mandates 5 that we have imposed and maybe we ought to keep 6 in mind that, when we impose a mandate, at the 7 same time we ought to provide the money, but to 8 have a blanket bill in this fashion besides all 9 the other things you throw in, on prisoners, 10 major change in the way we handle tort cases 11 involving municipalities, the firefighters now 12 denied OSHA protection, it's too much. 13 I mean I'd have sympathy with 14 Senator Bruno for all these bills that haven't 15 become law over the years. Maybe he can do them 16 one at a time. He's got a friendly governor 17 now, but to make this sort of a grab bag, I 18 think, is a real mistake. 19 I vote in the negative. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Announce the results, please. 22 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 23 the negative on Calendar Number 35 are Senators 1 Abate, Connor, Gold, Kruger, Leichter, 2 Markowitz, Montgomery, Nanula, Onorato, 3 Paterson, Smith and Waldon. Ayes 42, nays 12. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 5 bill is passed. 6 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 7 is there any housekeeping at the desk? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 There is a substitution at the desk, sir. 10 Secretary will read. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley 12 moves to discharge from the Committee on Banks 13 Assembly Print 8229-C and substitute it for the 14 identical Calendar Number 4. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Substitution is ordered. 17 Senator Johnson. 18 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 19 may we stand in place for a moment. We may have 20 to call up a previous bill for a vote. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Senate will stand at ease for one minute. 23 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 1 Senator Mendez has called down and indicated her 2 interest in being here to cast a negative vote 3 on this bill. I would say if she doesn't show 4 up in a minute, Senator, then we will proceed 5 with announcing the vote and she can take the 6 floor tomorrow and inform everyone that, had she 7 been here, she would have been in the negative 8 on this bill. 9 (Short pause) 10 Mr. President, I'd say announce 11 the results. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: We 13 announced the results earlier. The bill 14 passed. 15 SENATOR JOHNSON: O.K. Then, Mr. 16 President, there being no further business, I 17 move we adjourn to Tuesday, January 23rd at 3:00 18 p.m., sharp. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Without objection, the Senate stands adjourned 21 until Tuesday, January 23rd at 3:00 p.m. 22 (Whereupon at 4:40 p.m., the 23 Senate adjourned.)