Monday, February 12, 1996

1205 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 February 12, 1996 11 3:05 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President 19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 20 21 22 23 1206 1 P R O C E E D I N G S. 2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will 3 come to order. Would everyone please rise and 4 join me in the Pledge of Allegiance. 5 (The assemblage repeated the 6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. ) 7 The invocation today will be 8 given by Reverend Jim Lee, minister of the Unity 9 East Church Center in Brooklyn. 10 REVEREND JIM LEE: This is 1996 11 and these are the best of times and at times 12 these are the worst of times. These are the 13 times in which some people are experiencing 14 wealth and prosperity and then these are times 15 when some people are destitute and poor, and as 16 lawmakers you are making some interesting, very 17 interesting decisions, and I know out of your 18 decisions, some of them in which you will be 19 cheered and some in which you will be jeered, 20 but throughout it all, will you make your 21 decisions on the right or on the left? 22 Today I'm going to ask you to 23 take a look at the center and at the center of 1207 1 your being where the presence of the spirit lies 2 so that you can make the right decisions for 3 all. 4 So let us take a moment now in 5 this quiet time and offer up in this moment that 6 today will be a day of great decisions and 7 discovery, that today will be a day in which God 8 will lead the way in making the right decisions 9 that will be the best of times for everyone, 10 that this moment be the moment of great 11 opportunity to turn to God first before any 12 decisions are made and with God as your partner 13 in making these decisions, you will be assured 14 that the best outcome will be made in every 15 situation. 16 So Almighty God, we ask that You 17 come forth today, that You come forth in a 18 mighty way that in chaos, that You bring divine 19 order; in the midst of hatred and mistrust, that 20 you bring Your love; in the midst of doubt, that 21 You bring fear and in the midst of indecisions, 22 that You bring Your divine wisdom. 23 Almighty God, we thank You in 1208 1 advance for the spirit that lies within each and 2 every person that is allowing these lawmakers to 3 make the right decision, to make this the best 4 of times for all of New York. This we ask in 5 Your name and so it is. Amen. 6 THE PRESIDENT: Amen. 7 The reading of the Journal. 8 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 9 Friday, February 9th. The Senate met pursuant 10 to adjournment, Senator Hoblock in the Chair 11 upon designation of the Temporary President. 12 The Journal of Thursday, February 8th, was read 13 and approved. On motion, the Senate adjourned. 14 THE PRESIDENT: Without 15 objection, the Journal stands approved as read. 16 Presentation of petitions. 17 Messages from the Assembly. 18 Messages from the Governor. 19 The Secretary will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: The Governor 21 returned without executive approval the Senate 22 Bill Number 5779 entitled "An act to amend the 23 Civil Service law," in relation to providing 1209 1 jurisdiction to the Public Employment Relations 2 Board." 3 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Trunzo. 4 SENATOR TRUNZO: Madam President, 5 I request that the veto message be laid upon the 6 table. 7 THE PRESIDENT: So ordered. 8 Reports of standing committees. 9 The Secretary will read. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi, 11 from the Committee on Corporations, Authorities 12 and Commissions, reports the following bills: 13 Senate Print 425, by Senator Skelos, an act to 14 amend the Business Corporation Law, in relation 15 to corporate finance; 16 4509, by Senator Saland, an act 17 to amend the Not-for-Profit Corporation Law, in 18 relation to eliminating limitations; 19 5429, by Senator Marchi, an act 20 to amend the New York State Urban Development 21 Corporation Act, in relation to the name of the 22 New York State Urban Development Corporation; 23 5430, by Senator Marchi, an act 1210 1 to amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation 2 to indemnification of the members of the boards 3 of directors; 4 And 5814, by Senator Present, an 5 act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in 6 relation to removing the village of Alfred from 7 the Alfred-Almond-Hornellsville Sewer 8 Authority. 9 All bills ordered directly to 10 third reading. 11 THE PRESIDENT: The bills will go 12 directly to third reading. 13 Reports of select committees. 14 Communications and reports from 15 state officers. 16 Motions and resolutions. 17 Senator Libous. 18 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Madam 19 President. 20 On behalf of myself, actually, I 21 move that the following bills be discharged from 22 their respective committees and be recommitted 23 with instructions to strike the enacting clause, 1211 1 and I'll read those numbers: 3856, 4629, 4977, 2 4997, 5408. 3 THE PRESIDENT: The enacting 4 clauses will be struck. 5 SENATOR LIBOUS: Madam President, 6 on behalf of myself, I'd like also to place a 7 sponsor's star on Calendar Number 191. 8 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 9 starred. 10 SENATOR LIBOUS: And, Madam 11 President, on behalf of Senator Levy, I wish to 12 call up Calendar Number 187, Assembly Print 13 Number 6048-B. 14 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 15 will read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 187, by member of the Assembly Weisenberg, 18 Assembly Print Number 6048-B, an act to amend 19 the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation to 20 making it a felony to operate a school bus while 21 under the influence of alcohol or drugs. 22 SENATOR LIBOUS: Madam President, 23 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 1212 1 Assembly bill was substituted for bill -- Senate 2 Print Number 380 on February 7th. 3 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll on 4 reconsideration. 5 (The Secretary called the roll on 6 reconsideration. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 8 SENATOR LIBOUS: I now move that 9 Assembly Bill Number 6048-B be recommitted to 10 the Committee on Alcoholism and Drug Abuse and 11 that the Senate bill be restored to the order of 12 Third Reading Calendar. 13 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate bill 14 is restored. 15 Senator Libous. 16 SENATOR LIBOUS: Madam President, 17 again on behalf of Senator Levy, I wish to call 18 up his bill, Calendar Number 186, Assembly Print 19 1894. 20 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 21 will read. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 186, by member of the Assembly Bragman, Assembly 1213 1 Print 1894, an act to amend the Vehicle and 2 Traffic Law, in relation to civil penalties 3 imposed for alcohol or drug-related offenses. 4 SENATOR LIBOUS: I now move to 5 reconsider the vote by which this Assembly bill 6 was substituted for Senate Print Number 371 on 7 February 7th. 8 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll on 9 reconsideration, please. 10 (The Secretary called the roll on 11 reconsideration.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 13 SENATOR LIBOUS: Madam President, 14 I now move that Assembly Bill, Print Number 15 1894, be recommitted to the Committee on 16 Transportation and that the Senate bill be 17 restored to the order of Third Reading Calendar. 18 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate bill 19 will be restored. 20 Senator Rath. 21 SENATOR RATH: Madam President, I 22 would move that the following bill be discharged 23 from its committee and be recommitted with 1214 1 instructions to strike the enacting clause: Bill 2 Number 2038. 3 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 4 recommitted and the enacting clause is struck. 5 SENATOR LAVALLE: Madam 6 President. 7 THE PRESIDENT: Oh, Senator 8 LaValle. 9 SENATOR LAVALLE: Madam 10 President, I move that the following bill be 11 discharged from its committee and be recommitted 12 with instructions to strike the enacting 13 clause. That's Senate Print Number 6031-A. 14 Also, Madam President, on page 6, 15 I offer the following amendments to Calendar 16 Number 110, Senate Print Number 5765 and ask 17 that said bill retain its place on the Third 18 Reading Calendar. 19 Madam President, on behalf of 20 Senator Leibell, on page 14, I offer the 21 following amendments to Calendar Number 214, 22 Senate Print Number 3480, and ask that said bill 23 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 1215 1 THE PRESIDENT: The enacting 2 clause is struck and the amendment is received. 3 Senator Maziarz. 4 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Madam 5 President, I move that the following bills be 6 discharged from their respective committees and 7 be recommitted with instructions to strike the 8 enacting clause: Senate Number 5229. 9 THE PRESIDENT: The enacting 10 clause is struck. 11 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Madam 12 President, on page number 6, I offer the 13 following amendments to Calendar Number 90, 14 Senate Print Number 5183-A and ask that said 15 bill retain its place on third calendar reading. 16 THE PRESIDENT: The amendments 17 are received. 18 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, 19 Madam President. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Trunzo. 21 SENATOR TRUNZO: Madam President, 22 I move to take from the table Senate Bill Number 23 5779 as vetoed by the Governor. 1216 1 THE PRESIDENT: So ordered. 2 Senator Trunzo. 3 SENATOR TRUNZO: Madam President, 4 I now move to override the Governor's veto of 5 said bill. 6 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 7 will read. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 52, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 5779, an act 10 to amend the Civil Service Law, in relation to 11 providing jurisdiction to the Public Employment 12 Relations Board. 13 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno, 14 the bill will become a law notwithstanding the 15 veto of the Governor. Call the roll, please. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes - 18 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Leichter. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam 20 President, to vote to sustain the Governor's 21 veto, how would one vote, yes or no? As you 22 phrased the question, I wasn't sure. 23 THE PRESIDENT: We're voting on 1217 1 the bill. If you want the bill to become a law 2 notwithstanding the veto, a yes vote overrides 3 the Governor's veto. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. Thank 5 you, Madam President. If I may be heard to 6 explain my vote. 7 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Leichter. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam 9 President, this is politically a most 10 interesting and one might say unique situation. 11 I can't remember in the term of any Governor 12 that he was overridden so early in his term. I 13 have not agreed with Governor Pataki on most 14 issues, but on this particular issue, I do agree 15 with him, and I will vote to sustain the 16 Governor's veto, and I would like to explain 17 why. 18 I think -- I have the greatest 19 respect for the police in New York City or 20 throughout the state. I don't think we need to 21 spend any time extolling how much we are 22 grateful for the work they do, their commitment, 23 and there's no question that they're underpaid 1218 1 for the difficult job that they do, but I think 2 to have the state Legislature interfere in this 3 fashion in the city of New York and to change a 4 system which has existed as a result of 5 collective bargaining, as a result of agreements 6 between the unions and the city of long standing 7 -- now, there may be a better way of doing it. 8 There may be a fairer way of doing it. It may 9 well be that the uniformed forces in the city of 10 New York deserve higher pay and for that matter, 11 I think they do, and I think that the same thing 12 can be said of other public employees, but the 13 problem that I have -- and throughout my years 14 here there have been a number of instances where 15 I have been bothered by bills where the 16 Legislature puts its heavy hand on the city of 17 New York totally disregarding home rule, paying 18 no attention to the mayor of the city of New 19 York in saying, "We're going to tell you what 20 the police are going to do. We're going to tell 21 you when they're going to work. We're going to 22 tell you what guns they're going to carry. 23 We're going to tell you when they can be 1219 1 promoted and now we're going to tell you how 2 they're going to conduct collective bargaining," 3 and I submit to you that that is wrong. 4 I think the mayor of New York 5 deserves the support, not only of the 6 legislators from the city of New York; he 7 deserves the support of all the legislators, and 8 I think the Governor did a principled position 9 here -- he took a principled position. He 10 deserves to be supported and, frankly, I'm 11 surprised that his own party is abandoning him 12 at this time. 13 Madam President, I vote to 14 sustain the Governor's veto. As you phrased the 15 question, I, therefore, vote no. 16 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Waldon to 17 explain his vote. 18 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 19 much, Madam President. 20 My colleagues, this is an issue 21 of disparity, meaning the vote that we're 22 taking. Police officers and fire officers in 23 the city of New York, from what I read in the 1220 1 newspapers, are in as great a danger as in any 2 other jurisdiction in this country in the 3 performance of their duties. In fact, I believe 4 that the law enforcement and fire department 5 personnel of this great city that I am from are 6 in greater danger than other jurisdictions. 7 If you turn on the news at 6:00 8 o'clock, it is not foreign to see someone at a 9 funeral for either a fire department person or a 10 New York City police person. They, on a daily 11 basis, are the good samaritans of the '90s. 12 They put their lives on the line for people they 13 don't even know. 14 Therefore, I think it is 15 incumbent upon us -- and I applaud Senator Bruno 16 in his wisdom for bringing this before us for 17 consideration -- that we do what is right. It 18 would be injudicious and not the right thing to 19 do not to give the law enforcement personnel and 20 the fire department personnel of New York City 21 the same rights in terms of their earning power 22 and the ability to take care of their families 23 as those what are in Suffolk County, Nassau 1221 1 County, Los Angeles County. These men and women 2 are too far underpaid, and it can be resolved if 3 PERB comes to the rescue. 4 And so I say, let's do what is 5 right. Let's do what is just. Let's allow 6 their collective bargaining to be done in an 7 arena that will be fair to them. Unfortunately, 8 on this one, I think the mayor is wrong. On 9 this one, I think the Governor is wrong, but 10 we're not here to belabor that. We're here to 11 talk about who will be right on this issue. It 12 will be the law enforcement and fire department 13 personnel of this great city of New York and the 14 legislators of this great state of New York. 15 I vote, Madam President, to 16 override the Governor's veto. 17 THE PRESIDENT: Is there any 18 other member wishing to speak? 19 Yes, Senator Oppenheimer. 20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I would 21 like to second what Senator Waldon has said. I 22 feel the fire and the firemen -- the fire people 23 and the police people of this state deserve - 1222 1 of the City deserve the same support that they 2 have throughout the rest of the state, and I may 3 be the only mayor in this chamber who, you know, 4 in my prior life was a mayor, and I can say that 5 we lived quite well with PERB and we resolved 6 many, many conflicts where we had sort of 7 reached an impasse and they were there to assist 8 us. 9 So I think it is the only proper 10 thing to do for the fire and police people and I 11 think it works well, and I'm voting - 12 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 13 Montgomery. 14 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Madam 15 President. I too would like to join Senator 16 Leichter in voting to sustain the Governor's 17 veto, and I find myself in the unusual position 18 of supporting the mayor and -- as opposed to the 19 Governor. I usually oppose both of them, but 20 I'm supporting the mayor, and I think that Mayor 21 Giuliani is -- his concern about what would 22 happen to the budget of the city of New York is 23 certainly legitimate. It is correct and 1223 1 appropriate, and while I fully support the 2 police department, fire department and their 3 rights to bargaining and a fair opportunity to 4 bargain in the best of their interests, I 5 believe also that they, as I do, and the 6 citizens of New York City also have an 7 obligation to bargain in good faith with the 8 City and not to have the freedom and the right 9 to go out and bargain with -- in another 10 jurisdiction that is not within the City and 11 under the mayor's control. 12 So I'm voting with Mayor Giuliani 13 and I'm voting to sustain the Governor's veto, 14 as he is apparently intending to also support 15 the mayor of the city of New York. 16 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Abate. 17 SENATOR ABATE: I was not going 18 to speak, but I feel that someone has to speak 19 and correct some of the misinformation we have 20 been hearing. 21 I vote to override the Governor 22 in this case. I do not believe this bill will 23 bankrupt New York City. If I thought it would, 1224 1 I would vote against it. If you look at the 2 history of PERB, right now the New York City 3 Board of Education is under PERB. For a very 4 long time, the Transit Police was under PERB. 5 Did we see huge increases when that occurred? 6 No. If you look at the Civil Service Law, PERB 7 must evaluate the ability of the employer to 8 pay. No one talks about that. If you look at 9 OCB and, if you look at the PERB standards, both 10 have the same standards. I believe over time 11 the police department will see -- receive 12 equity. That will not occur overnight. 13 I do not believe this bill will 14 bankrupt the City. I think it's a fair bill. I 15 think we need to look at the facts and that's 16 why I still support the PERB bill. 17 THE PRESIDENT: Does anyone wish 18 to speak? 19 Senator Bruno. 20 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 21 by way of explaining my vote, I would just like 22 the members in this chamber to recognize that in 23 the Governor's veto message, he specifically 1225 1 mentioned the outstanding job that the police do 2 in the City. 70 percent of all the violent 3 crimes in this state happen in New York City. 4 He recognized that the uniformed people put 5 their lives literally on the line and in that 6 recognition, the Governor also suggested that 7 there should be some relationship in how the 8 uniformed firefighters and police are paid, and 9 while, Madam President, we recognize the 10 tremendous task the mayor has in trying to 11 balance a budget, we also recognize that we as a 12 Legislature are a separate body of government, 13 and that we must act on behalf of our 14 constituency as we see fit, and I consequently 15 vote aye. 16 THE PRESIDENT: The results, 17 please. 18 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 19 the negative on Calendar Number 52 are Senators 20 DiCarlo, Leichter, Nanula and Senator Goodman. 21 Aye -- excuse me. Those recorded in the 22 negative on Calendar 52, Senators DiCarlo, 23 Goodman, Leichter, Montgomery. Ayes 46, nays 4. 1226 1 THE PRESIDENT: The motion to 2 override the Governor's veto is carried. 3 Senator Bruno. 4 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 5 there is a resolution at the desk by Senator 6 Kruger. I would move that it be read and be 7 adopted. 8 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 9 will read. 10 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 11 Kruger, Legislative Resolution expressing 12 sincerest sorrow upon the occasion of the death 13 of New York City firefighter Louis Valentino, 14 Jr. 15 THE PRESIDENT: The question is 16 on the resolution. All in favor signify by 17 saying aye. 18 (Response of "Aye.") 19 Opposed nay. 20 (There was no response. ) 21 The resolution is adopted. 22 Senator Bruno, are you ready for 23 the calendar? 1227 1 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator, can we 2 open that up to the entire Senate? 3 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno. 4 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. 5 If I may, just to explain my vote 6 on that resolution. 7 Senator Kruger's resolution is to 8 recognize and honor Louis Valentino, Jr. who is 9 the firefighter who was killed last week. He 10 was buried on Friday. He -- he was -- and I 11 think if you read the press account, he was 12 certainly a hero, one of many in the long line 13 of heroes who wore a uniform in New York City, 14 and I would, therefore, ask -- I would assume 15 all members of the Senate would like to be on 16 this resolution with Senator Kruger's 17 permission. 18 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno, do 19 you want all members to be on this resolution? 20 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Madam 21 President. 22 Thank you. 23 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno, 1228 1 are you ready for the calendar? 2 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Madam 3 President. Can we at this time take up the 4 non-controversial calendar. 5 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 6 will read. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 10, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 1621-B, an act 9 to amend the Public Health Law, in relation to 10 the sale of commercial urns. 11 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 12 section, please. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 15 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 THE PRESIDENT: Results. 18 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 19 the negative on Calendar Number 10 are Senators 20 DiCarlo, Kuhl, Libous and Wright. Ayes 46, nays 21 4. 22 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 23 passed. 1229 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 63, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate 3 Print 5711-A, an act to amend the Insurance Law, 4 the Tax Law and the Administrative Code of the 5 city of New York, in relation to the tax 6 deductibility. 7 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 8 section. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 11 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 66, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 379, an act to 14 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation 15 to the suspension and restoration of a driver's 16 license. 17 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 18 section, please. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 20 act shall take effect on the first day of 21 November. 22 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 1230 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 2 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 3 passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 112, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 388, an act 6 to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in relation 7 to providing that commission of the traffic 8 infraction "driving while ability impaired" 9 while under a sentence of probation or 10 conditional discharge constitutes grounds for 11 revocation of such sentence. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Read 13 the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect on the first day of 16 November. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Call 18 the roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: The 22 bill is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 1231 1 161, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 2345-A, an 2 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to 3 the use of district categorical aid funds. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Read 5 the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Call 9 the roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: The 13 bill is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 162, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 2453, an act 16 to amend the Education Law, in relation to 17 procedures for the submission of propositions. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Read 19 the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 21 act shall take effect on the first day of 22 November. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Call 1232 1 the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: The 5 bill is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 168, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 267-A, an 8 act to amend the Arts and Cultural Affairs Law, 9 in relation to the use of permanent durable 10 paper. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Read 12 the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 14 act shall take effect on the first day of July. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Call 16 the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: The 20 bill is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 169, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 628, an 23 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to the 1233 1 distribution of the additional mortgage 2 recording tax. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Read 4 the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect on the 30th day. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Call 8 the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: The 12 bill is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 172, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 2999, an 15 act to amend the Social Services Law, in 16 relation to authorizing the Commissioner of 17 Social Services to enter into an agreement. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Read 19 the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Call 23 the roll. 1234 1 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: The 4 bill is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 173, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 5344-A, an 7 act to amend the Social Services Law and the 8 Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to 9 reinvestigating recipients. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Lay it 12 aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 187, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 380, an act 15 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 16 relation to making it a felony to operate a 17 school bus while under the influence of alcohol 18 or drugs. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Read 20 the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 22 act shall take effect on the first day of 23 November. 1235 1 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Call 2 the roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: The 6 bill is passed. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 189, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 619, an 9 act to amend the Highway Law, in relation to 10 prohibiting abandonment of Crane Pond Road. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Lay it 13 aside. 14 Senator Bruno, that completes the 15 non-controversial calendar. 16 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 17 can we at this time take up the controversial 18 calendar. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: The 20 Secretary will read. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 63, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate 23 Print 5711-A, an act to amend the Insurance Law, 1236 1 the Tax Law and the Administrative Code of the 2 city of New York, in relation to tax 3 deductibility. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 6 can we lay this -- Senator Velella has just 7 joined us. I think Senator Velella - 8 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 9 Senator Velella to explain the bill. 10 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. This bill 11 would extend something that we did last year for 12 long-term care insurance. What we did last year 13 was to allow for -- tax deductions for individ 14 uals who buy long-term care policies. Unfortun 15 ately the restrictions in setting that tax 16 exemption up, or that tax deduction up, made it 17 almost impossible to write policies for this 18 long-term care insurance. So what we're doing 19 here is extending the time period for these tax 20 deductions to take place and allowing some 21 latitude for the Superintendent of Insurance to 22 make the regulations that would apply to what 23 will be tax deductible for these long-term care 1237 1 policies. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 3 Senator Leichter. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 5 if Senator Velella would yield, please. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 7 Senator Velella, do you yield? 8 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 10 know I voted for the bill last year, but one of 11 my concerns last year, maybe more so this year 12 -- and also just to refresh myself on tax 13 consequences of that, could you explain those to 14 us? What are the consequences as far as the tax 15 that we're going to give up? 16 SENATOR VELELLA: The tax 17 deduction would be $750 if an individual was 18 between 55 and 60 years old, $2,000 if between 19 60 and 70 years old, and $2500 if over 70 years 20 old - 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: And, 22 Senator - 23 SENATOR VELELLA: -- to purchase 1238 1 this policy. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: And what would 3 be the fiscal implications for the state? 4 SENATOR VELELLA: Probably would 5 be a plus factor for the state because those 6 individuals who would have this policy would 7 have coverage for their long-term care and would 8 not become a public charge. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: If you would 10 be good enough to yield. 11 SENATOR VELELLA: Sure. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 13 know we like to look at all of the bills that we 14 do in a very positive, optimistic way and that 15 all of them are going to actually bring in more 16 money to the state treasury or cost us less 17 money, but I wonder if any study has been made 18 whether, in fact, this is likely to decrease the 19 burden on the state. I imagine that many of 20 these people, as they reach retirement age, 21 they've taken out their insurance. They've 22 gotten the state deduction. Now they reach 23 retirement age. They move to Florida. They 1239 1 will go to Arizona. Is there any way of 2 assessing how many of them would stay here, and 3 if they did stay here, that they would 4 eventually become a burden on the state, whether 5 they would qualify for Medicaid coverage? Do 6 you have any sort of a study on this 7 whatsoever? 8 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, the 9 actual in-depth study that, as you know, can 10 prove to be very expensive has not been done, to 11 my knowledge, and I think something that we 12 rarely see here is something that we can apply, 13 and that's called common sense. People get 14 older. They go into nursing homes. They need 15 long-term care. This is going to provide 16 insurance for them so that they won't become a 17 public charge. I think, you know, you just have 18 to try and think it through yourself a little 19 bit. We don't need an intensive study for 20 everything. Older people in this state will 21 need long-term care. If they're insured and 22 somebody else pays, the people of the state 23 don't have to pay. So if we walk it through 1240 1 together, maybe we can save a lot of money and a 2 lot of time for an extensive study. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I'll 4 be happy to walk this through with you. I just 5 don't want to walk over the cliff. 6 SENATOR VELELLA: I would never 7 lead you there, Franz. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: So I just 9 question whether we don't have an obligation - 10 I'm not asking for an expensive study but, I 11 mean first of all, there must be actuarial 12 tables. Secondly, we ought to be able to figure 13 out over the life of one of these policies if 14 people take it out, the average age they take it 15 out, somebody can tell you, "Well, that's 16 probably in their mid-40s." If they work until 17 the age 65, the total amount of their deduction 18 is going to be "X". How many of them -- and we 19 have statistics on that, how many people do end 20 up on Medicaid, being in nursing homes and what 21 is the total cost? I don't think that's such a 22 difficult study. 23 I can appreciate the logic of 1241 1 your bill, but as you and I know, particularly 2 when you deal with taxes, logic doesn't always 3 prevail, and I think that we do want to make 4 sure that this is not going to be to the 5 financial disadvantage of the state. 6 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, Senator, 7 the only thing I can say to you is that first of 8 all, we are not making the state an insurer of 9 the long-term care. This would be pursuant to a 10 private policy for which premiums are charged. 11 Private companies will sell these policies. 12 Private companies will go through the expense of 13 having the actuarial study to substantiate what 14 it is that they are committing to, so that we 15 will not have to bear that burden. It will be a 16 private enterprise or a private company. The 17 state Insurance Department will review the rates 18 and review the actuarial studies submitted and 19 if they are, in fact, sound, will approve the 20 policies and the structure of the premium and 21 the benefits that would accrue to the 22 policyholder. However, there should be no major 23 loss to the state in terms of the long-term 1242 1 commitment and a minimal commitment, as I 2 outlined to you, of $750 for someone who's of a 3 younger age to deduct from their policy 4 expenses. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: One final 6 question, if you would be good enough to yield, 7 Senator. Even accepting what you say -- and I 8 can see just looking at it without any studies 9 it makes sense, but the other thing is we want 10 to do this as an inducement to people to buy 11 long-term policies, is that correct? 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, that's 13 correct. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Has anybody 15 looked at it? Is anybody going to buy a 16 long-term policy because the savings are going 17 to be $50 a year in taxes? Is that going to 18 really be a inducement? We may be giving a 19 benefit to people when, in point of fact, 20 nobody's going to make a decision based on that 21 and it's going to be a windfall. 22 In fact, I want to tell you, I 23 was approached last year having reached the ripe 1243 1 old age by somebody who wanted to sell me 2 long-term insurance, and the one thing that this 3 broker never mentioned was, "Oh, well, the state 4 of New York, you know, you could do this, 5 Leichter, and you're going to get a tax 6 deduction." So I'm not so sure that what we're 7 doing here really isn't going to be in a sense a 8 windfall to the insurance companies without any 9 benefit to the state of New York or, stated in a 10 somewhat different way, we may be giving 11 inducements to people when there's no reason or 12 no benefit -- I shouldn't say benefit -- no 13 reason to give them -- to give them this 14 inducement because they're either going to buy 15 the policy or they're not going to buy it. I 16 don't know whether there is going to be an 17 inducement. 18 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, would 19 you yield to a question? 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 22 Senator Leichter, do you yield to a question? 23 SENATOR VELELLA: Would you agree 1244 1 that the policy of this state ought to be to try 2 and encourage people to provide for their 3 long-term care, if they can financially, 4 themselves? 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: I think so, 6 Senator. I think that's true and, therefore, if 7 this, in fact, is an inducement, as Senator Gold 8 muttered sotto voce, so I'm going to answer him 9 -- he said, how is this an inducement -- how is 10 this a windfall to the insurance company? Well, 11 it's a benefit to the insurance companies 12 because they may very well be able to change the 13 premiums in such a way that they may benefit, 14 but I will agree with you, Senator Gold, that 15 that's -- that's a point probably not -- you 16 know, among all the points I made, we'll discard 17 that one, but the other ones are really just 18 questions, Senator. I maybe accept your -- you 19 have a question. 20 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, let me 21 put your mind at rest. Private insurance 22 companies that do sell these policies -- now, I 23 don't mean to say anything dirty here or 1245 1 anything out of order, but their intention is to 2 make a profit off the total business. However, 3 those people who need the services will also be 4 benefited by it. It's the idea of spreading the 5 risk. If you have thousands of people that buy 6 these policies, not everybody is going to need 7 long-term care. Those who need long-term care 8 will use the policy. Those who died without the 9 necessity of long-term care, will not have 10 gotten the benefit of it, but that goes to the 11 pool that would make up the profits, and that's 12 why they do an actuarial study of it. That's 13 why we're extending the bill so that the 14 Superintendent of Insurance will have an 15 opportunity to structure these a little more 16 soundly. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, one 18 final question: Does -- the department of the 19 budget or fiscal people on the second floor, are 20 they in support of this bill? 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, they are. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: I mean, it's 23 just that since I've become such a strong 1246 1 supporter of the Governor with my vote on the - 2 I just want to know what his position is. 3 SENATOR VELELLA: I might add 4 also the New York State AFL-CIO has come out in 5 support of this bill in this kind, Senator. 6 That may sway you, Senator. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: In all 8 seriousness, Senator, I understand what you're 9 trying to do and I have great respect for it. I 10 am always concerned when we have bills that 11 reduce state revenue, particularly this year, 12 when our revenue seems to be so lacking for the 13 needs and the services we have to provide, but I 14 will accept your answers. 15 Thank you. 16 SENATOR VELELLA: Thank you. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 18 Senator Onorato. 19 SENATOR ONORATO: Mr. President, 20 I rise to support this bill. It came up in 21 committee, and I go along with Senator Velella. 22 I think in the long term it's going to save the 23 state of New York a great deal of money when we 1247 1 have an inducement for many of our citizens to 2 purchase long-time health care, because so many 3 of our senior citizens are deathly afraid of 4 winding up in nursing homes and denuding 5 themselves of all of their assets, that they 6 start giving it away prematurely, and some of 7 them get burned by that because they don't wind 8 up in nursing homes, but they wind up in the 9 poor house because they've already given all of 10 their assets to their children and then the 11 state winds up picking up the costs through 12 Medicaid. 13 So if there's any way at all for 14 the state to provide an inducement and an 15 incentive for our seniors and non-seniors to 16 purchase long-term health care, I think that 17 this bill is one of the first steps in the right 18 direction, and I urge my colleagues to support 19 the bill. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Senator 21 Gold. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I 23 had a few questions, but on the other hand, I 1248 1 don't want to give up if Senator Onorato is 2 going to buy me dinner tonight. 3 Would Senator Velella yield to 4 just a couple of questions? 5 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Does 7 Senator Velella yield to a couple of questions? 8 The Senator does. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, just to 10 clarify for my mind, is there a federal 11 deduction similar to this? 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Not to my 13 knowledge. There is -- I'm just being updated. 14 There is a proposed and pending action in 15 Congress for such a deduction. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Fine. And the 17 second question I have is if somebody were 18 filing a return in New York State and using the 19 standard deduction, I assume this would be like 20 any other deduction. It would be part -- there 21 wouldn't be an addition to the standard 22 deduction. A person would have to make a 23 decision whether they itemize or take standard 1249 1 deductions, is that correct? 2 SENATOR VELELLA: I would assume 3 so. You have a choice on your return. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Right. 5 SENATOR VELELLA: You can take 6 standard or you itemize. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Right. And the 8 third question I have, if I understand it 9 properly, if someone were under 55, the amount 10 they would be able to deduct is, I assume, the 11 amount of their premium up to a maximum of $750, 12 is that correct? 13 SENATOR VELELLA: Under 55? 14 SENATOR GOLD: In other words, it 15 says limited to - 16 SENATOR VELELLA: As I read the 17 bill, it's between 55 and 60 years old that the 18 exemption starts. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, but it's the 20 amount of the premium up to a maximum of 750 for 21 that age. 22 SENATOR VELELLA: Correct. 23 SENATOR GOLD: And being a 1250 1 deduction, if I could ask this question, it's 2 not costing the state of New York $750. It 3 would be the tax on $750. So if people were in 4 the top bracket, we're talking about -- maybe 5 about 48, $49. 6 SENATOR VELELLA: Exactly. 7 SENATOR GOLD: The last question 8 is it's your opinion that somebody would or 9 would not buy this if they could save the $48; 10 that's the inducement, or if they were, for 11 example, going to spend $2,000, they might be 12 able to get $130 back, and you think that that 13 would be encouragement to spend 2,000? 14 SENATOR VELELLA: I don't know 15 that that would be the deciding factor. 16 Obviously the cost of the policy would be more 17 of a factor, but it would be an inducement to 18 provide for people to go out and get their own 19 long-term care insurance so that they would have 20 this little bit of tax savings. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. In other 22 words, your philosophy is that somebody 23 otherwise might not spend the $2,000, but if 1251 1 they were going to get $130 back of the 2,000, 2 they might now be more intent on buying the 3 $2,000 policy so they would get the refund check 4 for 130. 5 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, I don't 6 know. All I can say is I would think that it's 7 part of an inducement to try to bring the costs 8 down and help the state policy -- to encourage 9 people to buy these policies if they're 10 financially able to. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 12 Senator Dollinger. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would Senator 14 Velella yield to just a couple quick questions? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 16 Senator Velella, do you yield? 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I 18 think this is a great idea. I just want to ask, 19 the concept of the tax deduction that 20 accompanies the purchase, one of my questions is 21 can you under current New York law use tax 22 sheltered assets to buy these policies? For 23 example, could you use your accumulated value in 1252 1 your IRA or your pension plan or the cash value 2 of your insurance policy as a source from which 3 to buy these and include them in as an asset in 4 your IRA? 5 SENATOR VELELLA: My 6 understanding is that your tax consequences - 7 and now I'm talking this bill does not at all 8 address that, or does not change any law that 9 might or might not apply. However, if you 10 wanted to invade your own retirement funds or 11 your IRA, I think you might suffer federal tax 12 consequences and would have to weigh those types 13 of consequences against the purchase of it. We 14 don't prohibit nor do we suggest or allow for 15 someone to invade their retirement funds to 16 purchase these policies. All we do is provide 17 the tax deduction. Whatever laws are in effect 18 regarding that would stay in effect, and I don't 19 believe it would probably be very financially 20 rewarding for someone to do that with an IRA, 21 let's say, but again, they would have to look at 22 the numbers. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right. Again 1253 1 through you, just on the bill, Mr. President, I 2 think this is a good bill. I think it moves in 3 the right direction. I think we could move 4 further to encourage the use of these policies 5 if we allowed people that use their savings - 6 and often times they're only through IRAs or 7 pension plans -- we allowed them to accumulate a 8 policy like this as an asset out of these funds, 9 we would then say to people with their minimal 10 amount of savings that we can actually not only 11 buy you financial security when you retire, but 12 you could actually provide long-term care if you 13 ever need it. 14 I know I've carried a bill that 15 would convert whole life insurance policies into 16 policies that could be used for long-term care 17 once the person reached the life expectancy at 18 the time they bought the policy, so you could 19 convert it. We have that now for exceptional 20 life needs like those who need Hospice care for 21 long-term disease and disability, but we've 22 never extended that to long-term care, and I 23 would hope that we could perhaps look at that 1254 1 kind of innovation and the innovation of using 2 tax-sheltered assets like IRAs or pension plans 3 to buy these as assets. I agree with the 4 sponsor. This is something that we need to do, 5 encourage to do, so that fewer people are coming 6 knocking on our door, asking for contributions 7 to long-term care. 8 So I'll be voting in favor of the 9 bill, and I hope the trend of using this device 10 and encouraging the use of this device and 11 innovating in the way we use this device will 12 continue. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Read 14 the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Call 18 the roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 22 Senator Leichter, why do you rise? 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: To explain my 1255 1 vote. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 3 Senator Leichter to explain his vote. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: I don't know 5 whether anybody cares, but I think I at least 6 owe an explanation because, after having ended 7 up being mesmerized by Senator Velella's 8 persuasiveness and having said, "Well, I think 9 I'll support it," as I thought more about it, I 10 think the problem with this bill is that it's 11 probably -- one, it's not an inducement but it 12 is going to cost the treasury money. Finally, 13 it really benefits a very, very small segment of 14 our society, those people who have enough 15 monies, first of all, that could afford such a 16 policy and secondly, that the deduction is of 17 any value. The real problem we have in this 18 state is taking care of working people, middle 19 class people who are not going to be able to 20 take advantage of this deduction. So it really 21 benefits primarily wealthy people, and I'm not 22 so sure in the absence of any study -- that's 23 really what I was getting at, Senator Velella, 1256 1 when I first asked you, are there any studies 2 that would show what the loss of revenues is 3 going to be and how many people who are in that 4 category -- we're talking by and large, people 5 who make more than 100,000 a year -- end up on 6 Medicaid in nursing homes? I imagine some do, 7 but I don't believe that many do. So I think if 8 you take a look at the -- on balance what this 9 is going to do, I think it may hurt the state 10 and not benefit the state. 11 So I'm sorry, Senator Velella, 12 I'm going to vote in the negative. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: The 14 bill is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49, nays 1, 16 Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: The 18 bill is still passed. 19 The Secretary will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 173, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 5344-A, an 22 act to amend the Social Services Law and the 23 Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to 1257 1 reinvestigating recipients of public assistance. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 3 Senator Johnson, an explanation has been asked 4 for. 5 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 6 this -- this bill would provide that upon a 7 sentence of conviction of a welfare recipient, 8 the local Social Services Department would be 9 informed of that conviction so they could do a 10 reinvestigation, determine whether, in fact, 11 this person would continue to get benefits, 12 whether his family was relying upon him or her 13 and would require additional aid, and there's 14 been some problems with this in the past. 15 A lot of money has been lost 16 because payments continued several months after 17 a person was convicted, money which was just 18 perhaps wasted or there's been evidence of other 19 persons using the ID cards in a fraudulent 20 manner for several months after the recipient - 21 intended recipient of those resources was 22 incarcerated. So this is the deal that would 23 rationalize the system which should have had a 1258 1 rationalization long ago. 2 We understand originally when 3 this bill was enacted -- first introduced in 4 1987 and passed in 1990, that originally the 5 departments would look in the local paper, see 6 who got arrested, see if they could find anybody 7 there. There's been an ad hoc improvisation for 8 some period of time with Social Services and 9 DOCS have been exchanging information 10 sporadically. We understand perhaps it's on a 11 quarterly basis, some people say monthly basis. 12 We think it should be immediate notification so 13 the investigation could be done and the benefits 14 corrected properly and in an expedient manner, 15 save the taxpayers a lot of money and may help 16 some people on welfare and certainly help the 17 taxpayer by saving a lot of wasted money. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 19 Senator Paterson. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 21 President. 22 I'm just looking for a little 23 clarification, if Senator Johnson would yield 1259 1 for a couple of questions. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 3 Senator Johnson, do you yield? 4 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: The 6 Senator yields. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 8 Johnson -- through you, Mr. President -- there's 9 no change in the payment schedule until the 10 investigation is complete, am I correct? 11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, of 12 course, Senator, of course. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Secondly, the 14 investigation relates to the situation upon the 15 conviction of the defendant and now awaiting the 16 sentence. So, therefore, there is not a 17 reinvestigation on this issue after the 18 prescribed term is served. In other words, at 19 that point the individual who is now coming out 20 of incarceration would reapply if they're going 21 to Social Services, is that correct? 22 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator 23 Paterson, you're correct. The law requires 1260 1 delivery of a certificate of conviction to 2 Social Services by the court which convicted 3 that person. So nothing would -- no 4 investigation would go until that is 5 accomplished. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: And then 7 finally, Senator Johnson, this investigation 8 would not affect anybody who is not awaiting 9 sentencing. 10 SENATOR JOHNSON: Would not - 11 I'm sorry, Senator. I didn't hear you. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: It's specific 13 to anyone who's been convicted of a crime and is 14 awaiting sentencing, this notification. 15 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, it's 16 upon conviction that this investigation would 17 take place. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Exactly. 19 Thank you very much, Senator. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 21 Senator Montgomery. 22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Mr. 23 President, would the Senator - 1261 1 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 2 Senator Johnson, do you yield? 3 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: -- Senator 4 Johnson yield for a question? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: The 6 Senator yields. 7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Senator. 8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator 9 Johnson, I am trying to also get some 10 clarification. The -- the recipient, the 11 category of recipient -- is there a particular 12 category of recipient that you're referring to, 13 or is this either AFDC or HR or - 14 SENATOR JOHNSON: No. There's no 15 particular category, Senator. 16 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No 17 particular category. 18 SENATOR JOHNSON: No. 19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right. 20 Senator Johnson, if you would yield for another 21 question. The -- in the case of an AFDC 22 recipient - 23 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 1262 1 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: -- the AFDC 2 payments are for support of the children? 3 SENATOR JOHNSON: That's correct. 4 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Okay. What 5 happens with those payments for those -- for 6 those children at the point when - 7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I'm 8 glad you asked that question because that 9 concerned me as well, particularly what happens 10 to the children if the parent is incarcerated, 11 and I think notice should go out very promptly 12 in order that -- in order that arrangements may 13 be made for support of the remaining family when 14 this parent is incarcerated. Perhaps you may 15 need foster care for these children if it's a 16 single parent there. So certainly it will be 17 investigated, but all we're really saying -- and 18 these investigations do take place right now 19 from time to time. We're saying investigate 20 promptly, rationalize the situation, provide 21 help where it is needed or weigh benefits or 22 pick up the card where it isn't needed so that 23 someone else doesn't use that service in a 1263 1 fraudulent manner that this person who is 2 incarcerated formerly was entitled to. 3 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right. 4 Mr. President, on the bill briefly. 5 I just -- I'm going to vote no on 6 this bill. I'm just not sure that all of the 7 provisions for the children of incarcerated AFDC 8 recipients are maintained without any break in 9 the provisions for those children, and we 10 certainly, I don't think -- and I'm sure that 11 Senator Johnson does not intend either -- for 12 the children to essentially pay for whatever 13 crime of the parent, and we have now a thousand 14 percent increase in the incarceration of AFDC 15 recipients what are women and, therefore - 16 SENATOR JOHNSON: That concern of 17 yours -- would you stand for a - 18 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator, I 19 would yield. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 21 Senator Montgomery yields, Senator Johnson. 22 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator 23 Montgomery, I would like you to know that the 1264 1 New York Public Welfare Association has sent a 2 memo out in support of this bill and they - 3 they say, among other things, that the public - 4 what do they say? They must be assured that 5 assistance is available to those who need it so 6 they can promptly investigate and make sure that 7 that aid is available, that if the tax dollars 8 are saved by catching some people, there will be 9 more money available to help others who really 10 need the help. So they are in favor of a prompt 11 reinvestigation of all these cases so the people 12 get the benefits which they deserve and which we 13 intend them to have through the laws we've 14 passed. So I don't think so they have do it as 15 a negative or beating on people at all, but 16 immediate notice which they have lacked in the 17 past in order to be able to do this prompt 18 investigation. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 20 Senator Montgomery. 21 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you, 22 Senator Johnson. 23 I -- Mr. President, I still have 1265 1 some reservations about that. As we know, the 2 system does not work always efficiently, as we 3 know in New York City what happens to so many 4 thousands of children, so we just passed a bill 5 last year -- I mean last week, excuse me -- to 6 address a major problem in our child welfare 7 system. These children would more than likely 8 come into the child welfare system, but they may 9 also be dealt with in the context of a family in 10 a loose way or in some other way in the 11 community, and I would not want to see those 12 children become victimized once again by the 13 fact that they have a parent who is incarcerated 14 and that the only source of support for those 15 children would be cut off prematurely. 16 So I'm voting no on this bill, 17 Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 19 Senator Mendez. 20 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Mr. 21 President. 22 Would Senator Johnson please 23 yield for a question? 1266 1 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 2 Senator Johnson, would you yield to a question? 3 The Senator yields. 4 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Mr. 5 President. 6 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator Johnson, 7 if there is a father, let's say of three 8 children, who is going to be sentenced because 9 of a crime, while that investigation is going 10 on, will -- the payment for the support of the 11 kids and the wife will still be in effect? 12 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Senator, 13 it will. 14 Senator, this bill doesn't say if 15 you're arrested, your welfare stops. It only 16 says if you are convicted and you're going to be 17 put away for a period of time, that a notice is 18 sent to Social Services to reinvestigate the 19 case. Obviously, your particular part of that 20 check wouldn't be there, but the benefits to the 21 rest of the family would remain, perhaps 22 increase if it were a working parent who is 23 incarcerated. They would obviously need more 1267 1 aid than they received previously. That would 2 also be delivered in this case. 3 SENATOR MENDEZ: So -- Mr. 4 President, so, therefore, during the period of 5 time in which that person is being 6 reinvestigated, the children and his wife will 7 be receiving the welfare check? 8 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Senator. 9 SENATOR MENDEZ: Oh, I see. 10 Thank you. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Read 12 the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 14 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Call 16 the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50, nays 1, 19 Senator Montgomery recorded in the negative. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: The 21 bill is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 189, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 619, an 1268 1 act to amend the Highway Law, in relation to 2 prohibiting abandonment of Crane Pond Road. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 4 Senator Stafford, an explanation has been asked 5 for. 6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you. 7 Mr. President, we had passed this 8 bill in 1991, 1992, 1994 and 1995. It is a bill 9 that's very, very important to the people of the 10 Essex County area. 11 We have a town road that has been 12 there for years and due to the classification 13 which has been -- the area has been classified a 14 wilderness area, there is a problem with keeping 15 the town road. We want to keep it open so that 16 people will be able to enjoy the area and also 17 those who are older and those who are not able 18 to walk or -- maybe not walk at all. 19 I would point out, Mr. President, 20 that I think this is one of the points that puts 21 us over the top, so to speak. You can stand on 22 this road and hear the cars on the Northway, and 23 they're calling it a wilderness area. We would 1269 1 hope that we could have the bill passed and we 2 could see this opportunity for all within the 3 area of New York and other areas to enjoy this 4 area. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 6 Senator Oppenheimer. 7 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: We -- we 8 have a long history with this bill. It goes 9 back several years, and while -- while it sounds 10 very logical what's being said by Senator 11 Stafford -- and I do respect him and feel that 12 he is doing what he thinks is the best thing for 13 the area that he represents, but this issue 14 actually is considerably larger than -- than 15 just this one road, and this just being a road 16 that the municipality -- the area would like to 17 see remain open. 18 The fact is there is in the 19 Adirondacks a master plan and within that master 20 plan, there is a process where issues that are 21 conflicting with that master plan can be 22 resolved. The process here will be totally 23 eliminated, and it will simply be a legislative 1270 1 issue which it was never intended to be. 2 There is a process. The process 3 was made just for these kind of problems that 4 come up between the municipality, in conflict 5 with the master plan for the area, and so as you 6 can see, this is really much larger than just 7 this one road and in the past, many people have 8 voted against this -- this bill because it 9 really does go against the structure that has 10 been created and simply says, "Well, the 11 Legislature can just do whatever they want. All 12 they need is to vote their will," and the fact 13 is we have law here and this would be against 14 our law, and the people who voted against it in 15 the past were the following Senators: Abate, 16 Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Jones -- Oops! 17 Pardon -- Leichter, Markowitz, Onorato and 18 Stachowski and on the other side of the aisle, 19 Goodman, Leibell and Levy. 20 Thank you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 22 Senator Paterson, do you wish to be heard on the 23 bill? 1271 1 SENATOR PATERSON: If the Senator 2 would yield for a question. Thank you. 3 Senator, I guess it's just a 4 concern, as Senator Oppenheimer mentioned, for 5 the actual process, not the result that you're 6 trying to obtain. With respect to the state 7 land master plan and how basically it would be 8 interpreted by the Adirondack Park Association, 9 it's really just a concern that we the 10 Legislature are micro-managing where it is 11 thought by these entities that there was a 12 hearing and there was a proper and seasonable 13 period for this issue to be represented, and so 14 I'll just simply ask you why you feel the 15 Legislature needs to be intervening at this 16 point. 17 SENATOR STAFFORD: Very, very 18 fair question. First, this is so -- the mistake 19 is so extreme, we feel that we should have 20 legislation and we should have it changed and, 21 again, as I said, so people can get there, 22 people can enjoy it, the physically handicapped, 23 as I say, the elderly, and I've noted that it's 1272 1 very hard to call it wilderness when you stand 2 there -- and it is quite interesting to be 3 standing there fishing in a pond when you're 4 hearing cars on the Northway. I don't think 5 that's quite wilderness. It takes a bit of 6 time. We're working on it. 7 We have a number of changes we 8 hope to make to the master plan. I assure you 9 that that will be something that will be debated 10 a good bit, and when we are able to make some of 11 the changes that we're suggesting, we'll be very 12 pleased, but until we get -- as a matter of 13 fact, what we're trying to do is to sit down and 14 have some real sensible negotiations to have 15 these changes, and this legislation is 16 correcting something, as I say, so extreme, that 17 we feel it should pass, but we certainly are 18 going to be working on the master plan and a 19 great deal of work needs to be done, and people 20 have to be reasonable on both sides -- no, all 21 sides, because I assure you there's more than 22 two sides. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 1273 1 Senator. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Read 3 the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Call 7 the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 10 the negative on Calendar Number 189 are Senators 11 Abate, Connor, Dollinger, Gold, Goodman, 12 Hoblock, Leibell, Leichter, Marcellino, 13 Markowitz, Maziarz, Montgomery, Nanula, Onorato, 14 Oppenheimer, Paterson, Smith and Stachowski. 15 Ayes 33, nays 18. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: The 17 bill is passed. 18 Senator Skelos, that completes 19 the controversial reading of the calendar. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there any 21 housekeeping at the desk? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: Yes, 23 there is. 1274 1 Senator Marcellino. 2 SENATOR MARCELLINO: On behalf of 3 Senator Velella, Mr. President, on page number 4 11, I offer the following amendments to Calendar 5 Number 177, Senate Print Number 2766-A, and ask 6 that said bill retain its place on the Third 7 Reading Calendar. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: The 9 amendments are received. 10 Senator Marcellino. 11 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 12 President, on behalf of Senator Hannon, on page 13 number 17, I offer the following amendments to 14 Calendar Number 12, Senate Print Number 5239, 15 and ask that said bill retain its place on the 16 Third Reading Calendar and remove the star. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: So 18 ordered. 19 Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 21 there being no further business, I move we 22 adjourn until Tuesday, February 13th, at 3:00 23 p.m. sharp. 1275 1 ACTING PRESIDENT DiCARLO: 2 Without objection, the Senate stands adjourned 3 until Tuesday, February 13th, 3:00 p.m. sharp. 4 (Whereupon at 4:12 p.m., the 5 Senate adjourned. ) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23