Tuesday, February 13, 1996

1276 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 February 13, 1996 10 3:05 p.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 1277 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will 3 come to order. Would you please rise and repeat 4 with me the Pledge of Allegiance. 5 (The assemblage repeated the 6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 7 The invocation today will be 8 given by the Reverend Peter Young of the Blessed 9 Sacrament Church in Bolton Landing. 10 Reverend Young. 11 REVEREND PETER YOUNG: Let us 12 pray. May all of the Senators, we pray, help to 13 empower those who have no hope. We pray this 14 legislative body will improve our conscious 15 effort to renew the quality of life that we talk 16 about. We ask You this in Your name. Amen. 17 THE PRESIDENT: The reading of 18 the Journal, please. 19 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 20 Monday, February 12th. The Senate met pursuant 21 to adjournment. The prayer by the Reverend Jim 22 Lee, minister of the Unity East Church Center, 23 Brooklyn. The Journal of Friday, February 9th, 1278 1 was read and approved. On motion, the Senate 2 adjourned. 3 THE PRESIDENT: Without 4 objection, the Journal stands approved as read. 5 Presentation of petitions. 6 Messages from the Assembly. 7 Messages from the Governor. 8 Reports of standing committees. 9 The Secretary will read. 10 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Padavan, 11 from the Committee on Cities, offers up the 12 following bills directly for third reading: 13 4746-A, with amendments, by 14 Senator Saland, an act in relation to 15 authorizing the city of Beacon, county of 16 Dutchess, to opt out of the provisions of 17 Chapter 602; 18 Senate Print 5928, by Senator 19 Leibell, an act to amend the Real Property Tax 20 Law, in relation to local tax exemption. 21 Senator Cook, from the Committee 22 on Education, offers up the following bills: 23 449, by Senator Maltese, an act 1279 1 to amend the Education Law, in relation to 2 instruction in the display, use and proper 3 respect for the Flag; 4 5209, by Senator Volker, an act 5 to amend the Education Law, in relation to the 6 appointment of a superintendent; 7 5752, by Senator Rath, an act to 8 legalize, ratify and confirm the acts and 9 proceedings of the Board of Education of the 10 Pavilion Central School District; 11 5967, by Senator Levy, an act to 12 amend Chapter 145 of the Laws of 1995, relating 13 to addressing the situation in the Roosevelt 14 Union Free School District; 15 5994, by Senator Hoblock, an act 16 to amend the Education Law and the Public 17 Authorities Law, in relation to Dormitory 18 Authority financing. 19 Senator Rath, from the Committee 20 on Local Governments, offers up the following 21 bills: 22 Senate Print 291, by Senator 23 Cook, an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, 1280 1 in relation to statements of taxes; 2 992-A, by Senator Present, an act 3 to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation 4 to authorizing the designation of rural economic 5 development zones; 6 234, by Senator LaValle, Senate 7 Print 1099, an act to amend the General 8 Municipal Law, in relation to granting 9 additional points in a service award program; 10 1266, by Senator Hannon, an act 11 authorizing the county of Nassau to accept an 12 application for real property tax exemption; 13 1368, by Senator LaValle, an act 14 to amend the Town Law, in relation to expending 15 from fire district revenues amount appropriated; 16 1535, by Senator Rath, an act to 17 amend the General Municipal Law, in relation to 18 authorizing fees and charges for emergency 19 services; 20 2... 1578-B, by Senator Larkin, 21 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in 22 relation to certain state lands in Orange 23 County; 1281 1 3384, by Senator Leibell, an act 2 to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation 3 to participation in certain health insurance 4 plans; 5 4581, by Senator Hoblock, an act 6 to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation 7 to payment of disability benefits. 8 Senator Saland, from the 9 Committee on Children and Families, offers up 10 the following bills: 11 Senate Print 2111, an act to 12 amend the Executive Law and the Family Court 13 Act, in relation to support of children; 14 2478, by Senator Skelos, an act 15 to amend the Family Court Act and the Criminal 16 Procedure Law, in relation to the age of child 17 witnesses; 18 2614, by Senator Leibell, an act 19 to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 20 providing and maintaining alarms; 21 3561, Senator Saland, an act to 22 amend the Family Court Act, in relation to 23 expanding the jurisdiction of the Family Court; 1282 1 4031, by Senator Saland, an act 2 to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 3 youths who are absent without leave from 4 aftercare programs; 5 4886, by Senator Rath, an act to 6 amend the Family Court Act, in relation to the 7 age of runaway children. 8 Senator Marcellino, from the 9 Committee on Environmental Conservation, offers 10 up the following bills: 11 1355-C, by Senator Sears, an act 12 to amend the Environmental Conservation Law, in 13 relation to prohibiting the feeding of deer; 14 3921, by Senator Sears, an act to 15 amend the Environmental Conservation Law, in 16 relation to increasing civil penalties; 17 4529-C, by Senator Marcellino, an 18 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law, 19 in relation to the harvest and shipment of 20 shellfish; 21 5830, by Senator Johnson, an act 22 to amend the Environmental Conservation Law, in 23 relation to permitting certain additional 1283 1 persons to obtain commercial lobster permits. 2 All bills directly for third 3 reading. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Without 5 objection, all bills directly to third reading. 6 Reports of select committees. 7 Communications and reports from 8 state officers. 9 Motions and resolutions. 10 Senator Hoblock. 11 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Madam 12 President, there's a resolution at the desk. 13 Would you kindly have it read in its entirety. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Please 15 read the resolution in its entirety. 16 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 17 Hoblock, Legislative Resolution commending 18 Eamonn McGirr for his outstanding initiative in 19 raising funds for the Cerebral Palsy Center for 20 the Disabled. 21 WHEREAS, weave a garland of 22 trussed vines ribboned in the emerald hued 23 shamrocks of early spring and let us, the 1284 1 elected representatives of the people of the 2 state of New York, let us join with Eamonn 3 McGirr; let us sing a "Soldier's Song"; 4 A native of County Derry, in the 5 North of Ireland, Eamonn McGirr will be honored 6 at the Annual St. Patrick's Dinner of the 7 American-Irish Legislators' Society at the New 8 Scotland Avenue Armory; 9 Eamonn will be honored for his 10 11-day marathon of non-stop singing which 11 shattered the Guiness Book of World Records for 12 endurance singing; 13 Eamonn McGirr undertook this 14 enormous feat in order to raise funds for the 15 Cerebral Palsy Center; 16 This legislative body wishes also 17 to commend Eamonn's wife, Mary, again a native 18 of County Derry, for her support and 19 perseverance; it further desires to send its 20 consummate love to Mareena, the daughter of 21 Eamonn and Mary and a victim of cerebral palsy; 22 While teaching advanced math and 23 calculus in Belfast, Eamonn McGirr formed the 1285 1 folk group The Go-Lucky Four. They enjoyed 2 enormous success in Ireland, going to the top of 3 the charts with "Up Went Nelson"; 4 Seven years ago, the McGirrs 5 became citizens of this nation; 6 Eamonn McGirr so clearly 7 personifies the finest traditions and principles 8 of the Irish heritage with humor, grace and 9 compelling dignity; 10 Eamonn McGirr did so courageously 11 labor to secure funding for the victims of 12 cerebral palsy. Eamonn sang non-stop for 11 13 days and 20 minutes; 14 This legislative body is greatly 15 honored to commend an Irish-American and his 16 lovely family for their consummate concern for 17 others; 18 Through his heroic commitment to 19 those who suffer from the dreaded disease of 20 cerebral palsy, Eamonn McGirr has so unselfishly 21 advanced that spirit of united purpose and 22 shared concern which is the unalterable 23 manifestation of our American experience; 1286 1 NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, 2 that this legislative body pause in its 3 deliberations and most joyously commend Eamonn 4 McGirr for his outstanding initiative in raising 5 funds for the Cerebral Palsy Center for the 6 Disabled, fully confident that Eamonn's feat 7 mirrors that legacy of valor and love for others 8 which constitutes the Irish-American heritage; 9 and 10 BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that 11 copies of this resolution, suitably engrossed, 12 be transmitted to Eamonn McGirr, Loudon House, 13 Loudonville, New York and to the Honorable 14 Richard J. Keane, President of the American 15 Irish Legislators' Society, Albany, New York. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 17 Hoblock. 18 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Madam 19 President, we are privileged and honored to have 20 joined with us today Eamonn McGirr, his wife 21 Mary and his daughter Mareena. 22 Eamonn is being honored today, 23 not just for the outstanding record-breaking 1287 1 achievement of singing non-stop for 11 days, but 2 for the initiative he showed and the dedication 3 with which he set about his task to raise funds 4 for the Center for the Disabled and all members 5 of the disabled community. 6 Mr. McGirr has set an example on 7 how one man can make a difference. We all want 8 to do something to help. We all want to show 9 that we care, but Eamonn has proven it can be 10 done, and I'm sure he has inspired many others 11 to record-breaking heights. Eamonn has 12 performed an outstanding and amazing feat of 13 endurance and courage, but he has also performed 14 an amazing feat of kindness. 15 On behalf of the New York State 16 Senate, I would like to extend our sincere 17 appreciation and gratitude. We are proud to 18 have a record breaker in our midst and 19 privileged to have such a generous and caring 20 individual living among us. 21 Congratulations, Eamonn. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 23 question is on the resolution. All in favor 1288 1 signify by saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye".) 3 Opposed, nay. 4 (There was no response.) 5 The resolution is adopted. 6 Congratulations and thank you, 7 Mr. McGirr, for your unselfish commitment 8 through the years. We all applaud your efforts 9 and applaud you. 10 (Applause) 11 Senator Skelos. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 13 at this time may we please adopt the Resolution 14 Calendar. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: All those 16 in favor of adopting the Resolution Calendar 17 signify by saying aye. 18 (Response of "Aye".) 19 Opposed, nay. 20 (There was no response.) 21 The Resolution Calendar is 22 adopted. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 1289 1 there will be an immediate meeting of the Crime 2 Victims, Crime and Corrections Committee in the 3 Majority Conference Room, Room 332 of the 4 Capitol. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Crime 6 Victims conference, Room 333 of the Capitol. 7 Senator Skelos, are you ready for 8 the calendar? 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. If we 10 could take up the non-controversial calendar. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The Clerk 12 shall read -- the Secretary shall read. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 117, by 14 Senator Padavan, Senate Print 667-A, an act to 15 amend the Penal Law, in relation to making 16 citizenship document fraud in the first degree 17 and second degree Class D and E felonies. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 19 last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect on the first day of 22 November. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 1290 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 158, by 7 Senator Velella, Senate Print 2872, an act - 8 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Lay it 10 aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 160, by 12 Senator Padavan, Senate Print 3380-A, an act to 13 amend the State Finance Law, the General 14 Municipal Law, the Personal Property Law, Public 15 Authorities Law and the Administrative Code of 16 the city of New York, in relation to authorizing 17 agreements with financing agencies. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 19 last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 15. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 23 roll. 1291 1 (The Secretary called the roll.) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 4 is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 192, by 6 Senator Bruno, Senate Print 5804, an act to 7 amend the Highway Law, in relation to 8 designating a portion of the state highway 9 system as "The General Philip Schuyler 10 Commemorative Highway." 11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 12 last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 20 is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 193, by 22 Senator Hannon, Senate Print 1265, an act to 23 amend the Environmental Conservation Law, in 1292 1 relation to providing hunting and fishing 2 licenses to disabled veterans free of charge. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 4 last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 12 is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 194, by 14 Senator Sears, Senate Print 1739, an act to 15 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation 16 to eliminating the annual service charge imposed 17 on distinctive license plates. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 19 last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 23 roll. 1293 1 (The Secretary called the roll.) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 4 is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 195, by 6 Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 3407, an act to 7 amend the Military Law, in relation to providing 8 legal authority for obtaining background checks 9 on individuals. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 11 last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 19 is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 197, by 21 Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 3559-A, an act to 22 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation 23 to special distinctive license plates. 1294 1 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it 2 aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Lay the 4 bill aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 198, by 6 Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 3659-A, an act to 7 amend the Military Law, in relation to 8 authorizing the Governor to present the 9 conspicuous service cross to certain persons who 10 are missing in action. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 12 last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 20 is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 199, by 22 Senator Cook, Senate Print 3961-A, an act to 23 amend the Insurance Law, in relation to motor 1295 1 vehicle insurance coverage. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 3 last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll.) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 11 is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 200, by 13 Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 5835, an act to 14 amend the Executive Law, in relation to 15 requiring that county directors of veterans' 16 service agencies be veterans. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 18 last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll.) 1296 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 3 is passed. 4 Senator Skelos, that completes 5 the reading of the non-controversial calendar. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 7 we'll take up the controversial calendar, and I 8 believe Senator Velella is on his way into the 9 chambers. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: There he 11 is as we speak. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: As I speak. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: As we 14 speak. The Secretary will read. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 158, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 2872, an 17 act to amend the General City Law and the Penal 18 Law, in relation to creating the crimes of 19 urinating and begging in public. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: 21 Explanation has been requested. 22 Senator Velella. 23 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. This bill 1297 1 is a simple bill. It has three provisions in 2 it. One, it allows local governments to adopt a 3 local ordinance refrain -- restraining people 4 from sitting or lying down in a public walkway 5 in commercial zones that they designate as 6 commercial zones. 7 Two, it provides for a crime in 8 the criminal statutes of the state for urinating 9 or defecating in public on the public streets, 10 and it provides for a crime of aggressive 11 begging on the streets of -- local streets in 12 the cities. It would be a Class B misdemeanor 13 for aggressive begging. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 15 Paterson. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 17 Madam President. 18 If Senator Velella would yield 19 for a question. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator, 21 will you yield? 22 SENATOR VELELLA: Certainly. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 1298 1 Senator yields. 2 Senator Paterson. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, we 4 have a menacing bill on the books right now, 5 Penal Law Section 120.25. We have fraudulent 6 accosting, which is Section 165.3. We have 7 disorderly conduct, Section 220.25 and also we 8 have Section 225 which relates to harassment. 9 So my question to you is, with all of this law 10 that we have made on this subject, do you not 11 feel that the police have the facility to 12 conduct these types of examinations and make 13 arrests when necessary as it stands on the books 14 right now? 15 SENATOR VELELLA: Obviously, 16 Senator, my answer would have to be no, 17 otherwise I wouldn't have put the bill in. I 18 think that the crime of aggressive begging would 19 be another tool in the arsenal of the police 20 officer to fight these quality of life crimes on 21 the streets of our cities. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 23 Paterson. 1299 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Gold 2 wanted to know if this bill has the death 3 penalty in it. 4 SENATOR VELELLA: No, no, 5 Senator. There's no such -- it's only a B 6 misdemeanor. That wouldn't carry that harsh a 7 penalty. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Okay. 9 Senator, if you would continue to yield. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 11 Velella, do you yield? 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Yes. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: You also have 15 in the bill a section that requires the designa 16 tion of 15 percent of the county as areas for 17 which there would be sort of an enterprise zone 18 whereby between the hours of 7:00 a.m. and 9:00 19 p.m., during the business hours, individuals 20 would be kept out of these particular areas. 21 They wouldn't be allowed to sit or lie down in 22 these particular areas, and you do -- you are 23 specific about certain exceptions, such as a 1300 1 parade or something for which whoever is 2 conducting it has secured a legal permit, but my 3 question relates to those public gatherings 4 where there is no permit, perhaps the police 5 aren't taking action, a public demonstration, a 6 political rally, anyone sitting in those 7 particular areas under your bill, as I see it, 8 would make themselves eligible for arrest under 9 this statute. I would suggest -- and I just 10 wanted to hear your reaction -- that perhaps the 11 bill needs to be more specific on this point. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 13 Velella. 14 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, I just 15 reread it because I thought perhaps I misread 16 it. We don't require people to apply for 17 permits to do certain things in commercial zones 18 which are socially acceptable. We say that you 19 can't lie in doorways. You can't lay on the 20 sidewalks -- in doorways or on the sidewalks of 21 these commercial zones, and we provide for 22 exemptions from that, such as medical emergency, 23 disabled persons using wheelchairs, crutches or 1301 1 other assisted devices. Operating or 2 patronizing a commercial establishment on a 3 sidewalk pursuant to a valid permit -- that 4 would be if you're a vendor on that particular 5 street -- that would require a permit, or a 6 street fair or parade. Sitting on a chair or 7 bench supplied by a public agency or abutting 8 property would not be -- require a permit. 9 Sitting on a sidewalk or a bus stop or other 10 transportation site would not require one. 11 Sitting on the sidewalk while engaged in 12 artistic activity would not require a permit. 13 The normal social things that people accept to 14 be seen on the streets of any city or any 15 locality would be exempt from this. People 16 sleeping and lying about the streets and 17 blocking pedestrian traffic would not be allowed 18 under this. That is the purpose of the bill. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 20 Paterson. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: My apologies, 22 Madam President. I don't think that I was clear 23 enough in my question. I wasn't saying that the 1302 1 individual needed the permit. I was saying if 2 there was a type of a public demonstration for 3 which there was no permit, then at that point 4 the sitting or lying on the street would not be 5 a -- what would be considered a social act under 6 the legislation, but what I'm actually 7 suggesting is that the individual who -- who is 8 sitting, let's say watching a demonstration or 9 some sort of political rally, would think that 10 there was a permit and since there was not, it 11 would be a way that they might get arrested and, 12 of course, in these types of situations where 13 there is not always a permit, I thought that the 14 individual, without real knowledge that they 15 were breaking the law, would become likely to be 16 arrested where they otherwise wouldn't be, and 17 so what I was suggesting, if Senator Velella 18 would care to comment on what I'm saying as I 19 presented it now, what about the situation where 20 there isn't a license but it is a public 21 gathering and a person is sitting on the ground 22 watching it or lying on a bench watching the 23 proceedings? 1303 1 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, first of 2 all, we're talking about a civil penalty here, 3 so they're not going to cart people off to 4 jail. That's one thing. The second thing is - 5 and I hate to say this again for the second time 6 in two days, but we have to also assume that 7 some people have common sense in this state, 8 including police officers, and when someone is 9 approached on the street and said -- and a 10 police officer says, "You're in the way. You're 11 blocking pedestrian traffic. If you don't move, 12 I'm going to issue you a violation", I would 13 think that that person would move along as I 14 would, I'm sure as you would, if directed by a 15 police officer because I'm obstructing 16 pedestrian traffic and interfering with a 17 commercial enterprise. I think it's 18 unreasonable to assume that a police officer is 19 going to swoop down on people, issue a summons 20 at random and threaten to lock them up for not 21 obeying a direct order from a police officer. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 23 Paterson. 1304 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 2 much, Senator Velella. 3 Madam President, on the bill. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: On the 5 bill, Senator Paterson. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: We certainly 7 do assume that people are exercising common 8 sense, but when they're not exercising common 9 sense, that does not necessarily make them so 10 civilly liable for the mistakes that they make. 11 In this bill, what we think is 12 that there is a sense of unusual punishment for 13 what may at times be actions that people are 14 taking that are, maybe not preferred by society 15 but are certainly not crimes or certainly not 16 civil penalties. 17 In this legislation, there is 18 certainly a protection against what is really a 19 sort of form of public lewdness that has to be 20 protected. At the same time, the homeless who, 21 for no reason or fault of their own, find 22 themselves in the position that they are in, are 23 often victimized by this kind of a process where 1305 1 their alternatives and their options are 2 limited. 3 Thank you, Madam President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank 5 you, Senator Paterson. 6 Senator Onorato. 7 SENATOR ONORATO: Senator 8 Velella, would you yield to a question, please? 9 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, Senator 10 Onorato. 11 SENATOR ONORATO: I brought up in 12 committee the person that I was concerned about 13 urinating. You know, it's a common practice for 14 mothers wheeling their little children, when 15 they get caught in a certain situation that they 16 let them go on a curb or against the tree when 17 they're out in public. Now, what's the 18 protection to stop them from arresting the 19 mother, and who gets the fine for urinating in 20 the street, the mother or the infant? 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, I 22 would assume, first of all, that you would be 23 quite upset if that mother let that happen in 1306 1 front of your house on your curb, or in front of 2 your tree -- on the tree in front of your house, 3 just as I would be upset. I don't know that 4 it's a common practice. If there is an 5 emergency situation, again, that might be an 6 emergency where a police officer would use 7 discretion, but certainly I don't think the 8 policy of this state should be to allow mothers 9 to let their children defecate and urinate on 10 the public streets. Pigs do that, not people. 11 SENATOR ONORATO: But does your 12 bill - 13 SENATOR VELELLA: We charge a dog 14 $100 for the problem of defecating on the 15 streets if the owner is caught. We're only 16 charging $50 for the mother now. We're giving 17 them a bargain. 18 SENATOR ONORATO: What happens - 19 is there anything specific in here where the 20 child is the one doing the urinating? 21 SENATOR VELELLA: The mother 22 would be responsible for that, I would think. 23 SENATOR ONORATO: What if the 1307 1 child is by itself - 2 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, if the 3 child - 4 SENATOR ONORATO: -- playing 5 outside on the street? 6 SENATOR VELELLA: If the child is 7 by itself - 8 SENATOR ONORATO: Playing - 9 SENATOR VELELLA: -- I would 10 assume they may have reached an age of reason 11 and the police officer would either direct them 12 to go home and take care of their personal 13 problem or bring them home. I would think 14 that's the reasonable thing to do. I don't 15 think you would have to cite a minor. That 16 might be some type of an exception that you'd 17 want to do. I don't think they're legally 18 responsible for breaking that law or violating 19 the law. 20 SENATOR ONORATO: Is there a 21 discretion - 22 SENATOR VELELLA: The bill that's 23 there, the parent ought to pay a fine for that. 1308 1 SENATOR ONORATO: But is there a 2 discretion for a two- or three-year-old child 3 who's outside playing? 4 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, there is 5 -- what happens if a two-year-old child or a 6 three-year-old child commits a more serious 7 crime? We don't indict them and prosecute 8 them. There is a legal -- a legal age of reason 9 for which people are held responsible for their 10 acts. Obviously if they're teenagers, we have a 11 little bit of a higher degree. If they're 12 adults, it's a higher degree. If they're 13 infants under the age of, let's say seven, which 14 is generally accepted as an age of reason, 15 they're really reprimanded and perhaps if this 16 becomes a pattern of conduct, there might be 17 some referral to a Person in Need of Supervision 18 citation or some kind of counseling for people 19 who like to go to the bathroom in public. 20 SENATOR ONORATO: Thank you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 22 Montgomery, did you wish to speak? 23 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes. Thank 1309 1 you, Madam President. 2 I don't have any questions for 3 Senator Velella, but I just would like to remind 4 the Senator that while I understand the intent 5 of the legislation, certainly I would not like 6 to have people urinating and defecating in my 7 front yard or in the -- rather, in the -- my 8 front yard is a parking lot, unfortunately, but 9 be that as it may, I don't want them urinating 10 and defecating there either, so -- but I want to 11 call your attention that we have attempted to 12 resolve issues such as this at other times and 13 they haven't seemed to work. 14 We have criminalized the use of 15 needles -- the use and possession of hypodermic 16 needles as a means, hopefully, of curbing the 17 use of intravenous drugs and, of course, it has 18 not worked. We have criminalized drugs. There 19 have been movements to decriminalize drugs, at 20 least marijuana. We have decriminalized them to 21 the extent that we have people serving long 22 terms in prisons for possessing small amounts of 23 drugs and it still hasn't worked. We have 1310 1 criminalized mothers of -- whose babies test 2 positive for drugs when they're born, and now 3 we're criminalizing begging, and my suggestion 4 to you is that we are looking to resolve an 5 issue by addressing the symptom of a much deeper 6 and larger social issue, and I don't think that 7 it's going to work, number one, and number two, 8 I just think that it is the wrong approach to 9 look at ways of keeping people from begging by 10 creating jobs, hopefully, and maybe some of 11 those people really aren't in any position to 12 work, but I don't think you're going to resolve 13 it by making criminals of them, and certainly 14 those people who don't have a home, who are 15 homeless and they sleep on the streets, and they 16 sleep in alleyways, and they sleep in subway 17 tunnels and they sleep on subways, they are a 18 menace to all of us in society. They are a 19 horrible menace, and it is a terrible statement 20 about what we have come to in our cities and 21 towns across the state and across the country, 22 but making criminals of them, I don't think is 23 going to solve the problem. We have a much 1311 1 greater social question, social economic 2 question to address and that in and of itself, I 3 believe, Senator Velella and my colleagues, is 4 where we should be looking and not to make 5 criminals of people who are already down and 6 out. 7 So, Madam Chair, I will be voting 8 against this, Madam President, and I hope that 9 my other colleagues will also vote against it 10 because Senator Velella is doing the wrong thing 11 for the right reason. 12 Thank you. 13 SENATOR VELELLA: Would Senator 14 Montgomery yield to a question? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 16 Montgomery, will you yield to Senator Velella? 17 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Sure. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 19 Senator yields. 20 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, is it 21 your opinion that when we decriminalized the 22 marijuana laws of this state that we have solved 23 the problem by decriminalizing them, or do you 1312 1 think that's still a serious problem in this 2 state, drug abuse? 3 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator 4 Velella, I believe that it is a major problem 5 for us that we have created a very major 6 criminalization for people who possess small 7 amounts of marijuana, yes, small amounts of 8 drugs of all sorts, and we now have our prisons 9 full of people serving long-term sentences for 10 this kind of crime that is a non-violent crime, 11 while other people are serving shorter terms for 12 more serious crimes and they get out and -- on 13 early parole and what have you. 14 SENATOR VELELLA: Would the 15 Senator yield to another question? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator, 17 will you yield for another question? 18 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, it's 19 your opinion that we have helped solve the 20 problem of marijuana and illegal use of 21 marijuana by decriminalizing the possession of 22 marijuana - 23 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I think - 1313 1 SENATOR VELELLA: -- if that was 2 the right way to go and that that has helped 3 solve the problem? 4 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator 5 Velella, I think that in terms of decriminal 6 izing marijuana, when you take out the tremen 7 dous economic incentive, it is -- it makes a big 8 difference. Yes, I think it makes a big 9 difference. Decriminalizing, taking it out of 10 the criminal code and making it an offense that 11 is against the person but that is not a criminal 12 offense, yes, I think that - 13 SENATOR VELELLA: This makes it, 14 in effect, a violation. 15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: You have now 16 made begging - 17 SENATOR VELELLA: Begging is 18 different. We were talking about the 19 defecating, I thought you were mentioning. 20 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I'm talking 21 about your bill. Your bill includes defecation, 22 urination, begging, sleeping on the sidewalks in 23 certain areas. 1314 1 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, each 2 of those categories has a different penalty to 3 it. It's separated. 4 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I under 5 stand. I understand. 6 SENATOR VELELLA: So the 7 aggressive begging, yes, it would be a crime, 8 but I thought -- aggressive begging would be a 9 crime in the sense of a misdemeanor. I thought 10 that you were talking about the defecating 11 portion. 12 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I'm talking 13 about the begging. We're criminalizing 14 begging. You're criminalizing begging in the 15 bill. That's what I - 16 SENATOR VELELLA: If I can, 17 Senator - 18 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: That's what 19 -- how I understand the legislation. 20 SENATOR VELELLA: -- what I'm 21 doing is making it against the law to intimidate 22 people and beg with the anticipation that they 23 will receive bodily harm if they don't 1315 1 participate in your attempt to solicit money 2 from them. When you place another person in 3 fear of physical injury or injury to themselves 4 by the process of begging, you ought to be 5 punished for that. That's my contention and 6 that means Penal Law violation, second time, 7 crime. Maybe you think that we ought to try to 8 do it another way. I would be happy to look at 9 it. 10 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Madam 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 13 Montgomery. 14 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I reiterate 15 that we are now placing a criminal offense for 16 begging, and we know that people who don't need 17 to beg, don't beg and people who are begging are 18 doing it for some reason, and I would say that 19 it's certainly not addressing the reason that 20 they're begging, to arrest them and criminalize 21 them, give them a criminal offense and -- with 22 the assumption that a number of these criminal 23 offenses will add up to having a higher offense 1316 1 and eventually could end them up in an already 2 over-burdened penal system, and I don't think we 3 -- we want to do that. I certainly don't -- I 4 don't think that Senator Velella intends to do 5 that, and so I think while we don't want to see 6 people begging, we certainly don't want to begin 7 to fill our prisons up with beggars who have 8 been arrested because they had no other means 9 except they had to beg for their -- their - 10 their food and whatever else. 11 Thank you. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank 13 you, Senator Montgomery. 14 The next Senator, Senator Waldon. 15 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 16 much, Madam President. 17 Would the good Senator Velella 18 yield to a question? 19 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 21 Velella will yield. 22 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, I 23 noticed the 15 percent of the sidewalk of the 1317 1 city in question portion of your bill, and if I 2 understood what you're proposing correctly, that 3 could be selectively any 15 percent in the city 4 in question, is that correct? 5 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. It would 6 be targeted by the city as to the purpose of the 7 bill to prevent people from lying in doorways or 8 lying on streets in commercial areas. The local 9 municipality would designate which of those 10 areas to be considered and post proper signage. 11 SENATOR WALDON: Is it -- if I 12 may continue, Madam President. Would the 13 gentleman continue to yield? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator, 15 do you continue to yield? The Senator 16 continues. 17 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 18 much, Madam President. 19 Senator, would this designated 20 area be limited only to the business district? 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, the 22 city - 23 SENATOR WALDON: The commercial 1318 1 zone? 2 SENATOR VELELLA: The city would 3 create those zones that they felt, that of all 4 the streets that the city may have, 15 percent 5 of them may be designated or less for zones in 6 which they don't want people sleeping, laying 7 about the streets because they are commercial 8 zones. They would have the discretion to 9 designate them as such. 10 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 12 Velella, do you continue to yield? 13 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Yes. 15 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, I thank 16 you for your explanation but I'm still troubled 17 in this sense. I don't see anything in the bill 18 which says that the city cannot be arbitrary. 19 For example, in New York City, 20 there's Bedford-Stuyvesant, there's South Bronx, 21 there's Harlem, there's Chinatown, there's 22 Little Italy, there's Jamaica, there's nothing 23 in your bill which says that the City cannot 1319 1 arbitrarily restrict the areas in those 2 communities which are very similar to the 3 community I serve and I represent, meaning a 4 significant portion of my community is Afro 5 American, although the district is about 50/50, 6 but this law, if it becomes law, would permit 7 the City to say, "Ah-ha! Just the sidewalks on 8 Jamaica Avenue." Is that not true? 9 SENATOR VELELLA: No, Senator, 10 that's not true, and the reason it's not true is 11 because we are not passing this bill in a 12 vacuum. This bill goes into the statutes along 13 with all the other statutes of this state, along 14 with the federal Constitution, along with the 15 state Constitution, and under the federal 16 Constitution and our state Constitution and 17 under the laws that we provide in this state, 18 under civil procedures and court actions, you 19 cannot act arbitrarily and capriciously if you 20 are a government agency. You cannot just act by 21 whim, and you can be -- and that can be enforced 22 in the courts. Certainly, the City would have 23 to exercise some type of discretion and some 1320 1 type of reasonableness in this, as is required 2 by the statutes and the Constitutions. It's not 3 being passed in a vacuum. 4 SENATOR WALDON: Would the 5 gentleman continue to yield, Madam President? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 7 Velella, do you continue? 8 SENATOR VELELLA: Certainly. 9 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, it is 10 not my purpose to be contentious. I don't think 11 contentiousness accomplishes much, but there's a 12 thing called an Article 78 proceeding, and there 13 are courts and we can go into court. 14 I respectfully submit to you that 15 your bill might be resolved in regard to my 16 question with a court action but on its face 17 with the words which are here, there's nothing 18 which says we proscribe arbitrary designation of 19 the sidewalks in question. I don't see that, 20 but I want to ask you a second question not 21 related to that. 22 The people who are being policed 23 by this bill, as you have written it, have you 1321 1 any data as to what communities they will come 2 from? By that, I mean, are they from the OMRDD 3 facilities, those who have transgressed in the 4 manner which inspired you -- in a manner which 5 inspired you to write this? Are they those who 6 are now no longer in the OMH facilities and are 7 out in the streets? Are the people the 8 Vietnamese veterans who are wandering our 9 streets aimlessly? Who are the people who you 10 anticipate will be arrested as a result if this 11 becomes law? 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, I don't 13 really anticipate that people will be arrested. 14 It provides for issuance of a summons in 15 violation and then only on second offense for it 16 to be a misdemeanor, which could be arrested or 17 could get a desk appearance ticket. So I don't 18 expect police to be coming down, handcuffing 19 people and dragging them off in a paddy wagon to 20 the police station to be processed within the 21 criminal justice system. 22 However, I don't know how you 23 would find out who are the slobs that defecate 1322 1 and urinate on the public streets of this city. 2 I don't know how you define who might be someone 3 who lies down in the doorways, where they come 4 from, how they've come to living -- how they've 5 come to assuming these anti-social behaviors, I 6 don't know how you would find those out. All I 7 know is there is a problem in the City. There's 8 a problem in big urban areas and this bill helps 9 to address that, people defecating in the 10 streets, people urinating in the streets, people 11 lying in doorways and interrupting the 12 commercial flow of business and also people 13 aggressively begging and putting people in fear 14 of imminent bodily harm. 15 Also, Senator, while I'm up and I 16 have an opportunity to respond, there is 17 criteria established, as I was reading, as to 18 what zones must be designated as being 19 commercial areas, and that would be within my 20 bill as it designs which areas that would be 21 defined for the purposes of being patronized by 22 persons working or residing in a city or 23 visitors for purposes of obtaining food or 1323 1 temporary lodging or engaging in recreational, 2 shopping, educational and cultural activities. 3 That would be the criteria for which a 4 municipality would have to establish a 5 commercial zone. So they could not arbitrarily 6 and capriciously -- they'd act by the confines 7 of the statute. 8 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 9 much, Senator, for that explanation. If the 10 gentleman would continue to yield, Madam 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 13 Velella, will you yield? 14 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 15 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, I went 16 all the way to line 39 on page 3 looking for a 17 section that would deal with more porta-potties. 18 SENATOR VELELLA: I'm sorry, 19 what? 20 SENATOR WALDON: More portable 21 potties in the City. 22 SENATOR VELELLA: Portable - 23 portable - 1324 1 SENATOR WALDON: Portable 2 potties. 3 SENATOR VELELLA: Portable 4 potties? 5 SENATOR WALDON: Yes. 6 Porta-johns, public toilets. 7 SENATOR VELELLA: Oh, okay. 8 SENATOR WALDON: I don't know if 9 you travel in Europe, but I have often, and 10 there are everywhere and in each city, public 11 toilets. So this is not a problem in many of 12 our sister cities across Europe. Wouldn't it 13 have been something smart -- well, let me take 14 that back. Would it not have been something you 15 may have considered making a provision that we 16 would have public toilets everywhere throughout 17 the cities of this state as opposed to proposing 18 that we lock people up who, in a moment of need, 19 resort to using the streets to defecate and 20 urinate? 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, you 22 don't know how many times in my life I have 23 wished that we had those facilities available on 1325 1 the public streets of our cities. Many, many 2 times in my life have I wished for those 3 facilities. However, I think we have a cost 4 factor at a time when we have a budget problem, 5 and certainly I would be happy to see that. We 6 did some experimenting in the city of New York 7 with public toilets and, as you know, they were 8 put on the streets and they were vandalized, 9 wrecked and destroyed. I don't know that it 10 would work. We tried to do it. The City tried 11 to do it. Unfortunately, whether it be the 12 tourists that visit our cities or some of the 13 residents of our city, somebody likes to destroy 14 these things and not allow the public conven 15 ience to be had by all of us. So I don't think 16 it would be a very worthwhile endeavor to spend 17 the taxpayers' money on it. 18 Unfortunately, our people don't 19 behave, whether they're tourists or not, like 20 the people who do behave in those countries that 21 you might have had the opportunity to visit. 22 SENATOR WALDON: Would the 23 gentleman continue to yield, Madam President? 1326 1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 2 Velella, will you yield? 3 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Yes. 5 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Velella, 6 do you know anyone who's a diabetic? 7 SENATOR VELELLA: Sure. 8 SENATOR WALDON: Do you know 9 anyone who has what's characterized as a 10 prostate condition, not necessarily cancerous, 11 but a prostate condition which may create 12 problems in terms of a need to urinate without 13 warning? 14 SENATOR VELELLA: I assume so, 15 yeah. 16 SENATOR WALDON: Is there any 17 provision in your bill for someone who's a law 18 abiding, decent, upstanding citizen who has an 19 attack -- permit me to use that phrase -- as a 20 result of diabetes or as a result of a prostate 21 condition and has no place to go to the bathroom 22 but in the street or to urinate on himself or 23 herself? Is there any proviso in your bill that 1327 1 people who have a medical condition and may even 2 have their bracelet on that, when the police see 3 that bracelet, they are eliminated from consid 4 eration for the desk appearance ticket and/or 5 the violation? By the way, my understanding of 6 the law, just as an aside, is a desk experience 7 is an arrest. 8 SENATOR VELELLA: A what? 9 SENATOR WALDON: An arrest, for 10 the edification of my colleagues, but what 11 happens if somebody who's a diabetic, who has a 12 prostate condition and cannot control the urge 13 to urinate and uses the street? 14 SENATOR VELELLA: That special 15 provision wouldn't be necessary here because 16 they might -- if they explain to an officer who 17 confronted them and said, "You are breaking the 18 law" and issued that citation, they might 19 receive the citation, although I'd like to think 20 not. I believe you're a former officer. You 21 certainly would not have issued a summons under 22 those conditions if you saw a bracelet, it was 23 an emergency, but there is a system of judicial 1328 1 judgments that are made on these types of 2 things, and that would be a perfectly valid 3 defense and a perfectly legitimate thing to 4 point out to a judge if you're cited for this, 5 and it might be an inconvenience to go to court, 6 yes, I agree, but the inconvenience is a lot 7 more to the people who have to walk down the 8 streets and see this type of activity by people, 9 and you can go to the judge and explain, "I am a 10 diabetic. I have this condition. It was an 11 emergency", and I'm sure the judge, in all 12 likelihood, would find you not guilty. If he 13 found you guilty, it's a $50 fine. I think you 14 could appeal it and win. 15 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 16 much, Senator. 17 If I may, Madam President, on the 18 bill. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: On the 20 question -- or on the bill. 21 SENATOR WALDON: On this 22 proposal, I must absolutely and unequivocally 23 agree with the learned Senator from Kings 1329 1 County, the Honorable Velmanette Montgomery. I 2 think this is too far-reaching. I think we're 3 punishing too many people who are unnecessarily 4 going to be caught up in this net of punitive 5 ness. Most of the people who will be wandering 6 aimlessly on the streets who do not have a 7 bathroom available to themselves will be our 8 homeless population. It will be men and women 9 who are out of the mental institutions, out of 10 the OMRDD institutions, who are veterans who are 11 suffering from some kind of Agent Orange 12 disability or whatever, but people who are not 13 capable of taking care of themselves, and I 14 think it is a waste of our priorities to want to 15 punish them and put them in jail, as 16 characterized by Senator Velmanette Montgomery, 17 and I'm also troubled by the 15 percent despite 18 what the bill says as proposed. I believe it 19 will be selectively enforced in terms of certain 20 areas will have their sidewalks designated as 21 non-usable versus other areas, and I also am 22 very sensitive to the fact that someone who has 23 an illness -- it should not be the purpose of 1330 1 our government for someone who has an illness to 2 punish that person in an emergency situation. 3 For all of these reasons, I 4 believe this fails on its face in terms of being 5 the proper approach to dealing with these 6 situations by the people of the state of New 7 York and we, acting as their legislative voice, 8 are really speaking untimely and out of turn. 9 I will vote in the no on this 10 bill, Madam President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank 12 you, Senator. 13 The next speaker, Senator Gold. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Madam 15 President. 16 I'm not so sure Senator Waldon 17 was correct when he said that enforcement of 18 this will be selective. I think enforcement 19 will be mostly people of color, as you would 20 say. I don't know how selective -- I think 21 that's unquestionably what would happen in our 22 city, and it's an easy collar. You know, this 23 -- maybe you can look at this as a pro-police 1331 1 bill. It's a cold night and the cop wants to 2 get off the streets and pick up a guy, say he's 3 begging, bring him into the precinct, do the 4 paperwork and they're both out of the cold, but 5 really this is an issue of perspective, and this 6 is what bothers me so much today. 7 You know, is the pen heavy? 8 Well, the pen is heavy compared to a grain of 9 sand but not compared to a chair. It's 10 perspective, and all day today there have been 11 people flooding the Legislative Office Building 12 and coming in to talk to us because they're 13 concerned about the homeless. They're concerned 14 about the helpless. They're concerned about 15 what this budget is going to do to our streets 16 in terms of placing more and more homeless. 17 They're concerned about whether or not people 18 are going to be emptied out of mental 19 institutions and places of care, and I'm sure as 20 they come into the balcony, as they hear what 21 we're talking about today, they must think we've 22 all gone "bazonkers" because the only thing 23 we're doing today to deal with people who are 1332 1 homeless or people who are helpless or people 2 that are in trouble is to talk about the - 3 whether or not somebody some place is going to 4 do one of these little things that Senator 5 Velella talks about, and I think that the 6 perspective on what we're doing here is 7 incredible. 8 I mean, I really would rather be 9 in a Conference Committee or some place talking 10 about how we can make the budget humane, and if 11 this is supposed to be the Republican answer to 12 how you make society humane, I'm not surprised 13 because I've seen you people do it before, but I 14 think you pick too easy an enemy. I think 15 you're bullies. I really do. I think you're 16 bullies. You never take on the big guy. You 17 always look, read a poll and see who people may 18 be against today, but on the other hand, I see 19 where you're coming from, Senator Velella. 20 After all, you have a guy out 21 there and you say to yourself, "When he got up 22 this morning, he had a choice and he stood there 23 and he said, 'Well, today I either want to be a 1333 1 bank president or I want to lie in a street and 2 beg', and if he chose to beg, we ought to arrest 3 him", and that other guy over there who could 4 have been at some big Wall Street firm trading 5 stocks, instead of that he went behind a 6 building and didn't hide himself enough, but he 7 urinated. He made a choice, an intelligent 8 choice. Society gave him that choice. So I 9 understand the philosophy of your bill. 10 I think it's incredible. I think 11 it's incredible. Senator Velella, what you're 12 talking about are things which do not make all 13 of us smile. It is not pleasant walking down a 14 street and seeing any of these things happen. 15 It is not pleasant walking down a street and 16 having a human beg money, but it's interesting 17 because your answer to the question is not to 18 help the person at this juncture at any rate - 19 and I don't mean you personally. You're a good 20 person, but this budget doesn't say, "What can 21 we do to stop the person from having to degrade 22 himself or herself and beg in the streets." You 23 don't ask that, but you say, "Get it out of the 1334 1 way." 2 You know, there's a lot of people 3 in society -- and they're good people, good 4 people -- who give to charity and they give 5 generously, but in the deep recesses of their 6 mind, they're giving to charity so they don't 7 have to see the human suffering, and when they 8 walk down the street and see the human 9 suffering, they are annoyed because they say, "I 10 don't understand it. I gave money so that I 11 would not have to walk down the street and see 12 the human suffering." So now they get mad about 13 that, and basically that's the philosophy of 14 this bill even though, Senator Velella, I will 15 admit in public you're a good person and I don't 16 think you're an evil or vicious person, but 17 that's what happens here. We're saying that 18 there is human suffering out there and rather 19 than at this point in time to spend all of our 20 energies getting a good budget, a humane budget, 21 a budget which offers opportunity, we've got to 22 get some of this suffering out of the vision of 23 our sight. 1335 1 The bill doesn't say you 2 shouldn't urinate. It says, "Don't urinate so 3 people can see you", you know, and "Don't beg 4 too hard because people will see you." So the 5 bill tries to cover up human misery. That's all 6 it really does, and in that way, I cannot 7 condone that particular approach to what are 8 very serious problems. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Is 10 Senator Markowitz in the room? He was our last 11 speaker. 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Would Senator 13 Gold yield, if I can, to a question? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 15 Gold, would you yield for a question? 16 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. 17 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, that 18 was an excellent speech and I agree 100 percent 19 with everything you said, but does it make a 20 difference that this bill does not punish the 21 begging? It punishes the aggressive begging, of 22 putting an innocent citizen in fear of being 23 harmed or some bodily injury coming to them if 1336 1 they don't respond to the person's request for 2 money. It talks about placing someone in fear 3 of being injured when you beg. If you want to 4 ask somebody, "Can I have a dime -- a dime -- a 5 half a dollar for a cup of coffee", certainly 6 that's not going to be punished, but if you 7 intimidate them and place them in fear of bodily 8 harm to themselves, I think it's proper to 9 punish them. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Well, having asked 11 me to yield, I'll respond this way: I would 12 first of all adopt the comments of Senator 13 Paterson because Senator Paterson addressed it. 14 There are things which are already crimes and if 15 we've done our job, we don't have to be ashamed 16 of it. We've done our job and we've protected 17 the public. 18 All I'm saying, Senator, is that 19 you have a wonderful intellect and a good 20 capacity to work, and I'd like to see that 21 directed in other ways. I don't think that 22 whether this bill passes or not, we are going to 23 change one thing out on the streets. If the 1337 1 cops want to enforce aggressive begging, as you 2 say today, I think Senator Paterson pointed out, 3 they have the tools, and if the cops aren't 4 going to do it, then this bill isn't going to 5 make them do it. So I don't know whether it's 6 really accomplishing anything other than, in my 7 opinion, taking our time and energy away from 8 solving what I think is the real problem. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 10 Markowitz. 11 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Thank you 12 very much. 13 This issue is a difficult one. 14 I'm sure you understand that, Senator Velella, 15 because I wish -- I wish it wasn't even 16 necessary that we even have to bring it to the 17 chamber because I'm sure you know that, for most 18 of us growing up in Brooklyn or anywhere in the 19 City or state, the idea of defecating in public, 20 the idea of -- the idea of urinating, the idea 21 of spitting on our sidewalks was something that 22 none of us, almost all of us never dreamt of 23 doing and, unfortunately, in these days, somehow 1338 1 public respect for themselves, among some of the 2 public, has decreased dramatically. 3 This is not the final bill that 4 will ultimately be approved by the state 5 Assembly and on to the Governor, I'm sure, and 6 I'm sure that my colleagues have raised 7 important differences, Senator Velella, 8 important concerns that they have safeguarding 9 those that are -- that have real problems 10 psychologically, that have problems of health, 11 but overall -- some months ago at my district 12 office on Flatbush Avenue, a woman, perhaps in 13 her late 40s, early 50s with her son, perhaps in 14 his early teens decided to urinate in front of 15 my office -- I hope it's not a reflection of how 16 they felt their Senator was, and as I came into 17 the office that morning, I asked the woman, I 18 said, "Excuse me. What is -- what is this young 19 man doing in front of my office", and she 20 responded in a very rational way. "You can see 21 for yourself, Mister." So I did, indeed, see 22 for myself and I mentioned to her, I said, 23 "Listen. This is ridiculous. Certainly there 1339 1 are enough bathrooms around that it's not 2 necessary for your son to urinate in front of my 3 office", and her response was "He had to go." 4 So all I thought about, after she looked at me 5 like I was the crazy one and she was the sane 6 one that, unfortunately -- unfortunately, we 7 shouldn't have to, in legislation, present role 8 models. We shouldn't have to have -- have to be 9 forced to teach people respect for themselves 10 because we're not talking only public respect. 11 Anybody that urinates in the 12 streets or spits on the sidewalk has no respect 13 for themselves, let alone any one of us, and so 14 perhaps maybe after this legislation is 15 modified, Senator Velella, perhaps we can pass 16 something that will encourage people to bring 17 out the best in people, to make them understand 18 that this type of behavior is anti-social for 19 themselves, their families and the community 20 that I know they want to live in, and I still 21 believe that they want to live in a decent and 22 clean community. 23 So like last year, I will support 1340 1 the legislation this year. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 3 last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This 5 act shall take effect on the first day of 6 November. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 11 Dollinger. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just to 13 explain my vote, Madam President. 14 I will be supporting this 15 legislation. I'm going to vote in the 16 affirmative, but as big a crime as this may - 17 this law may attempt to make aggressive begging 18 and lying on the sidewalk, urinating or 19 defecating in public, it seems to me the greater 20 crime may be what we do later this year when we 21 might pass a budget that will put more homeless 22 people on the street, have more people lying on 23 our sidewalks, having more people using curbs as 1341 1 public facilities and aggressively begging for 2 food and sustenance. That will be the great 3 crime. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Announce 5 the vote. 6 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 7 the negative on Calendar Number 158, Senators 8 Abate, Connor, Gold, Leichter, Mendez, 9 Montgomery, Padavan -- Paterson, Santiago, Smith 10 and Waldon. Ayes 42, nays 10. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 12 is passed. 13 Senator Skelos. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 15 now that we've finished that riveting and 16 heavy-duty debate, could we take up Calendar 17 Number 197. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The Clerk 19 shall read -- the Secretary shall read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 197, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 3559-A, an 22 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 23 relation to special license plates. 1342 1 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Madam 2 President, I just have one question for the 3 sponsor, if he wouldn't mind yielding. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: A 5 question from Senator Stachowski. Would you 6 yield, Senator Hoblock? 7 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 9 Senator yields. 10 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: The only 11 reason I asked for a question at all was because 12 I noticed earlier in the calendar we passed a 13 bill that took away the fee on the Purple Heart 14 license plates, and I'm just curious if we can 15 anticipate in a couple of years -- because it 16 was only a couple years ago that we passed the 17 Purple Heart license plates -- that we can 18 anticipate eliminating the fee on all of these 19 special plates, because normally what happens is 20 you do the plate for someone and then after they 21 start getting it, they say, "How come I have to 22 pay for this plate", and now I notice today 23 we're eliminating Purple Hearts. That's the 1343 1 question. 2 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Well, I guess 3 my intention or desire would be not to have the 4 fee. I don't think we can do it right now. We 5 don't know what the numbers are. The bill that 6 was entertained by the Veterans Committee which 7 was Senator Sears' bill on the Purple Hearts, we 8 felt it was appropriate, not only because there 9 might be a minimum number but recognize that 10 those who first bled for our country deserve 11 that recognition. Quite frankly, I don't think 12 New York State has done enough for veterans. I 13 think it's a small recognition, but until we can 14 understand what the fiscal impact would be as to 15 how many would apply, we chose not to ask for a 16 waiver. 17 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: If Senator 18 Hoblock would yield for a question. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 20 Hoblock, will you yield? 21 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Sure. 22 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Senator, 23 maybe we could use the license plating of 1344 1 veterans to get a number and a count for that 2 missing number and count that we need to ID 3 veterans for the Korean and Vietnam buyouts, 4 that if they could get that benefit that all the 5 World War II veterans got that so many of them 6 have been coming to our various offices about 7 all these years and asking for. 8 SENATOR HOBLOCK: I totally agree 9 with you. I would ask that you help me. I have 10 been trying to get the Comptroller of the state 11 of New York's assistance in this matter since 12 January of 1995 and he has steadfastly refused 13 to cooperate in this endeavor. It seems to me 14 in this advanced age of technology, it shouldn't 15 be very difficult to push a couple of buttons on 16 a computer and come up with this information 17 but, unfortunately, we're not getting the 18 assistance that we need, and to put in the bill 19 that has been vetoed by the previous Governor on 20 numerous occasions, we're working on that bill, 21 and I would hope that you would assist us 22 because in the relatively near future, we're 23 going to have an ID for veterans in this state, 1345 1 something that has been lacking now for many, 2 many years. 3 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank 5 you, Senator Hoblock. 6 Read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect on the first day of April. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 14 is passed. 15 Senator Skelos, that completes 16 the controversial reading of the calendar. 17 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 18 if we could return to reports of standing 19 committees for the report from the Crime Victims 20 Committee. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 22 Secretary will read. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nozzolio, 1346 1 from the Committee on Crime Victims, Crime and 2 Correction reports the following bills: 3 Senate Print 408, by Senator 4 Skelos, an act to amend the Correction Law and 5 County Law, in relation to maintenance of 6 prisoners; 7 1740, by Senator Skelos, an act 8 to amend the Executive Law and the Penal Law, in 9 relation to payment of fee by persons sentenced 10 to probation; 11 2110, by Senator Saland, an act 12 to amend the Executive Law and the Social 13 Services Law, in relation to making reports for 14 child abuse; 15 2244, by Senator Nozzolio, an act 16 to amend the Correction Law, in relation to 17 limiting time allowances for good behavior for 18 sexual offender; 19 2337-C, by Senator Skelos, an act 20 to amend the Correction Law and the Criminal 21 Procedure Law, in relation to notification 22 concerning release of escaped inmates; 23 2818, by Senator Nozzolio, an act 1347 1 to amend the Correction Law, in relation to 2 charging taxes on sales to commissaries and 3 canteens; 4 5951, by Senator Nozzolio, an act 5 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 6 establishing the crime of aggravated assault. 7 All bills directly for third 8 reading. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Without 10 objection, all bills directly to third reading. 11 Senator Skelos. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: There being no 13 further business -- there being no further 14 business, I move we adjourn until Wednesday, 15 February 14th, 1996 at 11:00 a.m. sharp. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Without 17 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until 18 Wednesday, February 14th at 11:00 a.m. sharp. 19 (Whereupon, at 4:07 p.m., the 20 Senate adjourned.) 21 22 23