Monday, March 18, 1996

2176 1 2 3 4 5 6 ALBANY, NEW YORK 7 March 18, 1996 8 3:05 p.m. 9 10 11 12 REGULAR SESSION 13 14 15 16 SENATOR CARL L. MARCELLINO, ACTING PRESIDENT 17 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, SECRETARY 18 19 20 21 22 23 2177 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 The Senate will come to order. I ask that 4 everyone present please rise and repeat with me 5 the Pledge of Allegiance; members in the 6 balcony, too. 7 (The assemblage repeated the 8 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 In the absence of clergy, may we bow our heads 11 for a moment of silence, please. 12 (A moment of silence was 13 observed.) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 We'll have the reading of the Journal. 16 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 17 Sunday, March 17, the Senate met pursuant to 18 adjournment. Senator Hoblock in the chair 19 upon designation of the Temporary President. 20 The Journal of Saturday, March 16, was read and 21 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Without objection, the Journal stands approved 2178 1 as read. 2 We have presentation of 3 petitions. 4 Messages from the Assembly. 5 Messages from the Governor. 6 Reports of standing 7 committees. 8 Reports of select committees. 9 Communications and reports 10 from state officers. 11 Motions and resolutions. 12 Senator Bruno. 13 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 14 we have a resolution commemorating Good Joes 15 Day; we'd like to have it read up -- handed up 16 and read, and we'll shortly follow that with a 17 "Manny" - 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 The Secretary will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 21 Bruno, Legislative Resolution commemorating 22 Good Joes Day 1996. 23 Whereas, St. Joseph is 2179 1 everyone's patron saint and not just the patron 2 saint of those who are fortunate to bear his 3 name; and 4 Whereas, the New York State 5 legislature is appreciative of the vital 6 contributions of those good members known as 7 "Joseph"; and 8 Whereas, the Society of Good 9 Joes is celebrating its 38th year in memory of 10 the late Joseph Addonizio and its members have 11 banded together under a common name in the 12 spirit of camaraderie and good fellowship; and 13 Whereas, tradition holds that 14 Saint Joseph is the patron saint of the working 15 person, of all of those who labor with the 16 dignity that only true humility imparts; and 17 Whereas, on St. Joseph's Day 18 in March, the swallows return to Capistrano, 19 heralding the conclusion of a long, cold winter 20 and the advent of a new spring; now, therefore, 21 be it 22 Resolved, that this legislative 23 body pause in its deliberations and recognize 2180 1 this great day, Tuesday, March 19, 1996, in 2 commemoration and deliberation of all Good Joes 3 in the state of New York, to be celebrated on 4 Monday, March 18, 1996, in honor of all Good 5 Joes of this Empire State; and be it further 6 Resolved that a copy of this 7 resolution, suitably engrossed, by transmitted 8 to Mrs. Rose Addonizio, New Rochelle, New York. 9 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 10 can we at this time move the adoption of the 11 resolution - 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Yes, Senator. The question is on the 14 resolution. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: -- and open it 16 up to anyone else in the chamber, whether 17 they're named "Joe" or not? They might be 18 named Manny, anything, Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 The resolution will be opened up for all who 21 wish to be on it; anyone who -- wishing not to 22 be, please inform the desk. 23 The question is on the 2181 1 resolution. All in favor, signify by saying 2 aye. 3 (Response of "Aye".) 4 Opposed, nay. 5 (There was no response.) 6 The resolution is adopted. 7 Senator Nozzolio. 8 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. 9 President, I move the following bills be 10 discharged from their respective committees and 11 be recommitted with instructions to strike the 12 enacting clause: Senate Number 2720. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 The bill will be recommitted with the enacting 15 clause struck. 16 Senator Saland. 17 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. 18 President, on page 31, I offer the following 19 amendments to Calendar 392, Senate 3596. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 The amendments are received. 22 SENATOR SALAND: Excuse me? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2182 1 The amendments will be received. 2 SENATOR SALAND: Okay, and Mr. 3 President, also on page 31, Calendar Number 4 447, I move amendments on that bill, Senate 5 5104; and I would like to remove a star from 6 Calendar 392, Senate 3596. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 The amendments have been received and the star 9 is removed. 10 Senator Kuhl. 11 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, 12 Mr. President. On page number 13, Calendar 13 Number 352, my Senate Bill 1544, would you 14 place a sponsor's star on that bill, please? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 There will be a sponsor's star placed on bill 17 1544. 18 SENATOR KUHL: Also, 19 Mr. President, on behalf of Senator Libous, on 20 page 17, I offer up the following amendments to 21 Calendar Number 397, Senate Print 4003, and ask 22 that said bill retain its place on the Third 23 Reading Calendar. 2183 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 The amendments are received and the bill will 3 retain its place on the calendar. 4 SENATOR KUHL: Also, 5 Mr. President, on page 23, on behalf of Senator 6 Maltese, Calendar Number 454, I offer up the 7 following amendments to that bill, Senate Print 8 441, and ask that said bill retain its place on 9 the Third Reading Calendar. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 The amendments are received and the bill will 12 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 13 SENATOR KUHL: Lastly, Mr. 14 President, on behalf of Senator Maltese, on page 15 27, I offer up the following amendments to 16 Calendar Number 483, Senate Print 4344, and ask 17 that said bill retain its place on the Third 18 Reading Calendar. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 The amendments are received, and the bill will 21 retain its place. 22 Senator Volker. 23 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. 2184 1 President, I have two motions here. First of 2 all, on behalf of Senator Sears, I move that 3 the following bills be discharged from their 4 respective committees and be recommitted with 5 instructions to strike the enacting clause: 6 Senate Print 1666 and Senate Print 5532. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 The bills will be recommitted and the enacting 9 clause will be struck. 10 SENATOR VOLKER: Thank you. 11 On behalf of myself, Mr. 12 President, I move that the following bill be 13 discharged from its respective committee and be 14 recommitted with instructions to strike the 15 enacting clause: My bill, Senate Print 6087. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 It will be done. 18 Senator Bruno, we have a 19 substitution up here at the desk and we would 20 like to make it at this time. 21 SENATOR BRUNO: Would you make 22 the substitution, Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2185 1 Thank you. 2 Secretary will read. 3 THE SECRETARY: On page 28, 4 Senator Volker moves to discharge from the 5 Committee on Elections, Assembly Bill No. 8383 6 and substitute it for the identical Senate 7 bill, Calendar 500. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 The substitution is ordered. 10 Senator Bruno. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 12 can we at this time take up the non 13 controversial calendar? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Yes, we can, Senator Bruno. 16 Will the Secretary read the 17 non-controversial calendar, and may we have 18 order in the house, please? Thank you. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 159, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 3009A, an 21 act directing the city of New York to refund to 22 certain not-for-profit organizations the amount 23 of real property taxes erroneously paid to such 2186 1 city. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 5 This act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Call the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the 9 roll.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 The bill is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 277, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print - 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it 16 aside. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Can we lay the bill aside? 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 290, by member of the Assembly Tokasz, Assembly 21 Print 5085, act to amend the Town Law, in 22 relation to providing for absentee ballots for 23 fire district elections. 2187 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 4 This act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Call the roll. 7 (The Secretary called the 8 roll.) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 The bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 302, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 2670, an act 14 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law in 15 relation to leaving the scene of injury to 16 certain animals without reporting. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 20 This act shall take effect on the 120th day. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Call the roll. 23 (The Secretary called the 2188 1 roll.) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 The bill is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 306, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 4578 - 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Lay the bill aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 308, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 6038, an act 11 to amend the Railroad Law, in relation to police 12 officers of a commuter railroad police force 13 under the jurisdiction of the Metropolitan 14 Transportation Authority. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside 16 for the day. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Lay the bill aside. Lay the bill aside for the 19 day. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 315, by Senator Sears, Senate Print 1189, an 22 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 23 including the use of firearm in the commission 2189 1 of a class A felony. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Call the roll -- I'm sorry. Read the last 4 section, then call the roll. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 6 This act shall take effect on the first day of 7 November. 8 (The Secretary called the 9 roll.) 10 Ayes 51. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 The bill is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 339, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 2716A, an 15 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 16 the maximum automobile insurance discount for 17 anti-theft devices. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Read the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 21 This act shall take effect on the first day of 22 January. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2190 1 Call the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the 3 roll.) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 The bill is passed. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 355, by - 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside 10 for the day. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Lay the bill aside for the day, please. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 357, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 4515, an 15 act to amend the Workers' Compensation Law, in 16 relation to teaching activities of board 17 members. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Read the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 21 This act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Call the roll. 2191 1 (The Secretary called the 2 roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 The bill is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 376, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 3537A, 8 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 9 relation to traffic regulations at parking 10 areas and driveways of schools. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 14 This act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Call the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the 18 roll.) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 The bill is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 378, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 314A, an 2192 1 act to amend the Social Services Law, in 2 relation to providing certain applicants and 3 recipients of public assistance. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. 7 This act shall take effect in 180 days. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Call the roll. 10 (The Secretary called the 11 roll.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 The bill is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 385, by Senator Padavan - 17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Lay it aside 18 for amendment. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 The bill will be laid aside for amendment at 21 the request of the sponsor. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 403, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 211, an 2193 1 act authorizing the United States Military to 2 recruit on the campuses of the State University 3 of New York and other such state college 4 campuses. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Lay the bill aside. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 413, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 6084, an 10 act to amend Chapter 890 of the Laws of 1982 11 relating to the establishment of certain water 12 charges for hospitals and charities. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 16 This act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Call the roll. 19 (The Secretary called the 20 roll.) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 The bill is passed. 2194 1 Senator Skelos, that completes 2 the non-controversial calendar. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Please take 4 up the controversial calendar at this time. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Secretary will read. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 277, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 546B an 9 act to amend the Judiciary Law and the 10 Education Law, in relation to creating the 13th 11 judicial district consisting of the county of 12 Richmond. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. 16 This act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Call the roll. 19 (The Secretary called the 20 roll.) 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Senator Leichter. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 2195 1 President, on the bill, we have debated this 2 bill before, which creates a separate judicial 3 district for the county of Richmond. 4 I think as I pointed out 5 before, this bill does not have the approval of 6 the Office of Court Administration, and I just 7 want to point out the people voted against it 8 in other years, just to remind them. When this 9 bill came before us last year, it was opposed 10 by Senators Connor, Dollinger, Galiber, Gold, 11 Kruger, Leichter, Montgomery, Paterson, 12 Santiago, Smith and Solomon. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Senator Marchi. 15 SENATOR MARCHI: Are we on a 16 roll call? 17 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 18 I believe Senator Leichter was explaining his 19 vote. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Yes, that was my understanding. 22 SENATOR MARCHI: I'm 23 explaining my vote Mr. President - 2196 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Senator Marchi, to explain his vote. 3 SENATOR MARCHI: -- to give - 4 since the opposition are all quality Senators, 5 I'm explaining my vote to give them an 6 opportunity to support this bill. 7 There are 400,000 residents of 8 the county of Richmond. We have four that have 9 come out of Richmond nominated in convention. 10 The delegates are all Kings County, except for 11 a handful on a proportionate basis. 12 Well, this certainly gives them 13 a right to at least their commensurate number 14 of judges, but they have ten times as many 15 judges. They don't have ten times the 16 population, but they have ten times as many 17 judges. What kind of fairness is that? It's 18 the reason we want secession. It wouldn't 19 change this equation, but it's that single 20 mindedness that we're not entitled to at least 21 something roughly approximating our 22 population. 23 This is degrading to the 2197 1 democratic system, small "d" -- and even big "D" 2 and big "R." I cannot understand anything as 3 vulgar, abusive, than the present practice 4 where -- and I tell you, in my county, there is 5 no political difference on this, we only want 6 fairness, whether they're Democrats or 7 Republicans, they want fairness; we're not 8 getting it. 9 I don't know whether any of you 10 want to remain, maybe if you're from Brooklyn, 11 you have to, but I don't see how, of your own 12 free will and your own judgment, you want to 13 remain opposed to this bill. 14 I think you did it in good 15 conscience, and I value you all as good, honest 16 quality people. But this thing is an 17 abortion, this present practice, it should not 18 persist, and I vote aye. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Senator DiCarlo. 21 SENATOR DiCARLO: Thank you, 22 Mr. President. I rise as a representative of 23 both the county of Kings and the county of 2198 1 Richmond, Brooklyn and Staten Island, and I 2 want to praise Senator Marchi for this piece of 3 legislation. 4 I agree, it is an absolute 5 disgrace that the people of Staten Island are 6 subjected to basically no representation and 7 total control by Brooklyn. This is a piece of 8 legislation that, in all fairness, should be 9 enacted. The people of Staten Island have a 10 right to decide their judiciary, and right now 11 they have no right. So, I commend Senator 12 Marchi and I urge its passage. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Senator Dollinger, to explain his vote. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: To explain 16 my vote, Mr. President. I couldn't help but be 17 swayed by the oratory of John Marchi, but I 18 voted against this bill last time because I 19 believe what we really need to do is to change 20 the whole way we elect judges, to establish 21 judicial districts that make sense. 22 What's so interesting about my 23 judicial district is that -- I have the good 2199 1 fortune of living in Monroe County -- we have 2 half the population of the 7th Judicial 3 District, and I believe -- Senator Kuhl or 4 someone else may correct me -- we have 95 5 percent of the judges. 6 I'm one of the beneficiaries of 7 a policy of judicial districts that were drawn 8 up at some other time based on some other 9 theory. 10 It seems to me, and although I 11 can support the concept of allowing Staten 12 Island to elect its own corps of judges, its 13 own county judges that would act as Supreme 14 Court judges, what I think we ought to do is 15 pour our attention to court reform and look at 16 changing the way we elect our judges throughout 17 this state. 18 I'm sympathetic to it, but 19 until we deal with the broader issue of 20 fairness regionally for all the regions of this 21 state, I can't vote to create one specific one 22 for Staten Island. But certainly when we get 23 to the issue, as I hope we some day will, about 2200 1 complete court reform, then I hope to be 2 joining Senator Marchi in his voice. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Announce the results, please. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 6 President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Senator Leichter, why do you rise? 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm going 10 to ask that you lay aside the roll call 11 because I think Senator Marchi raised some 12 questions and I think they ought to be 13 addressed. So I'm going to ask that we -- if 14 that means reconsidering the vote or whatever, 15 it just -- I think we have a procedure where 16 you can withdraw the roll call. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Without objection, the roll call will be laid 19 aside. 20 Senator Leichter, you - 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 22 Marchi, if you will yield, please, for a 23 question. 2201 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Senator Marchi, do you yield to Senator 3 Leichter? 4 SENATOR MARCHI: Yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 The Senator yields. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 8 think you make a very compelling case, and 9 obviously when John Marchi addresses an issue 10 with so much passion, I think it touches all of 11 us. I think Senator Dollinger answered it in 12 part, but there is another thing that I think 13 disturbed us, Senator, and I believe that 14 actually Senator LaValle said he would talk to 15 you about, by creating a new judicial 16 district - 17 SENATOR MARCHI: You're 18 absolutely correct, and I took that out, that 19 it changes -- what he's referring to is the 20 number of people in the Board of Regents, and I 21 took that out so that it would be not be a 22 complicating factor. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: So that it 2202 1 will not affect the - 2 SENATOR MARCHI: It's in the 3 amended bill. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: It will not 5 affect the number of Regents? 6 SENATOR MARCHI: Yes. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: All 8 right. Thank you. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. 12 This act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Call the roll. 15 (The Secretary called the 16 roll.) 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Will the negatives please raise your hands 19 highly so we can see them? 20 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded 21 in the negative on Calendar Number 277 are 22 Senators Babbush, Connor, Dollinger, Lachman, 23 Leichter, Montgomery, and Paterson; also, 2203 1 Senator Kruger. Ayes 48, nays 8. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 The bill is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Also, Senator 5 Smith. Ayes 47, nays 9. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 The bill is still passed. 8 Secretary will read -- Senator 9 Farley, why do you rise? 10 SENATOR FARLEY: I would like 11 to be recorded in the negative on Calendar 12 Number 302. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Without objection, Senator Farley will be 15 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 16 302. 17 Secretary will read, please. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 306, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 4578, an 20 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 21 relation to prohibiting the issuance of a 22 driver's license. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 2204 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Senator Tully, an explanation has been asked 3 for by Senator Paterson. 4 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you, 5 Mr. President. 6 This piece of legislation is 7 another one in the war against graffiti 8 vandalism and it would prohibit the issuance of 9 a driver's license to certain minors and young 10 adults for one year from the time at which they 11 are convicted of making graffiti. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Senator Paterson, I think you -- why do you 14 rise? 15 SENATOR PATERSON: First, Mr. 16 President, I wanted you to know that -- Senator 17 Gold had a solution, but we'll discuss it 18 later. 19 If Senator Tully would yield 20 for a question. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Senator Tully, would you yield? 23 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 2205 1 President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 He yields, sir. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 5 President, my question to Senator Tully is, do 6 you feel that this legislation is in many ways 7 remote to the actual issue that it's trying to 8 fight? If we're going to fight graffiti, there 9 are penalties that we would attach to an 10 individual who would commit the act of defaming 11 and defiling property; but by denying a 12 driver's license to individuals under age 21, 13 are we not in a speculative way going into 14 other areas of their life, areas that may 15 involve employment, areas that may involve 16 schooling, areas that may involve issues that 17 are related to survival, after we have already 18 punished them for the original vandalism? 19 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 20 President, if I may. Senator Paterson, that's 21 exactly the point. 22 As you probably recall, many 23 years ago, we passed some legislation that 2206 1 provided for the open container law and that 2 really wasn't related as much to the particular 3 violation as it was to the fact that the police 4 departments were having trouble in getting 5 convictions for disorderly conduct because when 6 they'd ask the youngsters to move along, they 7 finally realize as a result of court decisions 8 that if they took a step, they were moving 9 along and they were not subject to conviction 10 for discon; so, we had to find some other 11 methods of getting these groups to disband. One 12 of them was the open container law. Has it 13 worked effectively? I believe so. 14 In this particular case, we do 15 know that, without a doubt, nothing seems to be 16 working in the area of preventing graffiti and 17 we do know that it does lower the quality of 18 life, it's been an economic deterrent, as well 19 as an environmental disaster from the stand 20 point of what our communities look like. 21 This is meant exactly to do 22 what it is you've stated. It's meant to make 23 young people, young adults and minors realize 2207 1 that if they commit this offense of making 2 graffiti, that something will happen to them, 3 that there is a provision in the law that has 4 teeth, and if they do it again or if they do it 5 in this particular situation, they are going to 6 be penalized for it and that penalty will be 7 the taking away of their driver's license. 8 That's only a privilege, it's not a right. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 10 Mr. President. 11 I think that the legislation 12 definitely demonstrates a great deal of 13 creative thinking on Senator Tully's part. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator Paterson, are you explaining your vote? 16 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm 17 speaking on the bill, Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Okay. On the bill. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: And I think 21 that these are the types -- this is the type of 22 thought process that leads us to a lot of 23 valuable solutions. I just think in this case 2208 1 the legislation is somewhat excessive; it may 2 interfere with the fact that the individual 3 who's committed the offense may very much be 4 trying to lead a right path and I might even 5 suggest that if they're in a car, then it will 6 be hard for them to be a recidivist on the 7 subway again. 8 Thank you, Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Senator Abate. 11 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, on the 12 bill. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Senator Abate, on the bill. 15 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. I agree 16 with the intent of the bill, but I do not 17 believe that the punishment that's outlined 18 here will act as a deterrent. 19 All of us find that graffiti 20 destroys the quality of life, could impact on 21 the economy of that local neighborhood, and 22 young people, as well as adults, who engage in 23 graffiti should be punished. That is not the 2209 1 issue. But the punishment should fit the 2 crime. 3 There are some outstanding 4 criminal justice programs that target graffiti 5 offenders, that's, for instance, community 6 service programs which when an individual is 7 arrested and convicted of graffiti, they must 8 devote hundreds of hours, or whatever, to the 9 community to cleaning up graffiti. It's 10 intrusive, it tells that young person there's a 11 penalty, they need to pay back to society 12 through removing that graffiti. 13 So, yes, individuals should be 14 punished. I think, though, in this case, 15 taking away someone's license is not related to 16 the crime itself. It does not improve the 17 quality of that community. I would prefer 18 mandating if someone is convicted of graffiti 19 that they actually go back into the community 20 they've assaulted, actually go back to the 21 community they victimize, and spend hours 22 cleaning up that community, whether it's 23 removing graffiti or doing some other kind of 2210 1 thing to improve the quality of that 2 community. 3 For those reasons, although I 4 agree with the intent of the change in the 5 legislation, I cannot support it. Thank you. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Senator Oppenheimer. 8 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Well, I 9 have to disagree with my dear colleague because 10 I think this bill is terrific. We have had so 11 many instances of graffiti in my community and 12 surrounding communities and we have tried the 13 community service route and we do make them 14 clean up the mess they made and contribute more 15 in addition to that than just cleaning up. We 16 sometimes have them paint entire parks, 17 benches, fences. It just hasn't seemed to be 18 very effective. 19 And since many of these people 20 committing these crimes are youngsters who I 21 think put the highest value on their driver's 22 license, it seems to be the one thing that 23 really matters to them, and I think this is an 2211 1 effective way to go at the problem. 2 I will also be seeking to 3 vastly increase penalties for graffiti that is 4 motivated out of hate and bias. We have had 5 several incidents recently in my community, 6 actually on the street I live on, in which very 7 damaging and hateful graffiti has appeared on 8 people's homes, and I will be talking about 9 that at another time; but this bill, for this 10 purpose, I think is effective, and I will be 11 voting yes. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Senator Waldon. 14 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you 15 very much, Mr. President. Would Senator Tully, 16 my dear colleague from the Island, yield to a 17 question or two? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Senator Tully, would you yield? 20 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 21 President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator Tully yields. 2212 1 SENATOR WALDON: Senator 2 Tully, do you have at your fingertips any data 3 regarding the unemployment rate in the city of 4 New York in regard to African-Americans, 5 Caribbean-Americans, Latino-Americans, Latinos, 6 Hispanics in the five boroughs? 7 SENATOR TULLY: No, Senator, I 8 do not. 9 SENATOR WALDON: Being that 10 you do not, Senator, would you accept the 11 premise -- if I may, Mr. Tully, Mr. President, 12 through you. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Do you continue to yield, Senator? 15 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 16 President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Senator yields. 19 SENATOR WALDON: Would you 20 accept the premise that those people I just 21 mentioned are disproportionately unemployed 22 compared to others in the city of New York? 23 SENATOR TULLY: Senator Waldon, 2213 1 if you're saying that's the premise and that's 2 based on your research and something that you 3 believe in, I will accept the premise. 4 SENATOR WALDON: I appreciate 5 that very much, Senator. 6 If I may continue, Mr. 7 President? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Do you continue to yield, Senator Tully? 10 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 11 President. As a matter of fact, I will 12 continue to yield until Senator Waldon is 13 finished asking me questions so we don't have 14 to go through that for a few more moments. 15 SENATOR WALDON: I appreciate 16 that very much. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 The Senator continues to yield indefinitely. 19 SENATOR WALDON: Thank 20 you. 21 Senator Tully, are you aware of 22 what is called "gypsy" cab drivers? 23 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 2214 1 President, I am. 2 SENATOR WALDON: Are you 3 aware that the majority of the people who drive 4 those "gypsy" cabs are people of color, be they 5 from Santo Domingo or Puerto Rico or the 6 Caribbean or born here in America happening to 7 be African-American? 8 SENATOR TULLY: I can't say 9 that I'm aware of that conclusively, but I'm 10 certain that there may be a great number of 11 "gypsy" cab drivers who fit that category. 12 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you 13 very much, Senator Tully. 14 If I may, Mr. President, on the 15 bill. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Senator Waldon on the bill. 18 SENATOR WALDON: No one abhors 19 graffiti more than I. In fact, the church 20 next to my home in Cambria Heights which was 21 until not too long ago a synagogue has been 22 damaged on a number of occasions with graffiti, 23 and we have together as a community gone to 2215 1 clean it up. 2 The doctor's home around the 3 corner from me, which is a Tudor with the upper 4 portion of it in white wood, kids have climbed 5 up on his garage and written extremely negative 6 statements, very profane statements on his 7 home, and we have as a community gone up there 8 to clean it up. 9 So, I support proper punishment 10 for those who do graffiti. I think this is 11 overbearing. I think that it will dramatically 12 impact those people who are from New York City 13 who happen to be people who are, to a greater 14 extent than others, unemployed and who happen 15 to have a need for jobs, such as "gypsy" cab 16 drivers, and for those reasons, at this time, 17 Senator Tully, I will have to oppose your 18 proposal and vote in the negative. 19 Thank you very much, Mr. 20 President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 2216 1 This act shall take effect on the first day of 2 November. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Call the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the 6 roll.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes - 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Senator Onorato? 10 SENATOR ONORATO: To explain my 11 vote. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Senator Onorato, to explain his vote. 14 SENATOR ONORATO: Senator 15 Tully, I think this is a good bill. I think it 16 does have one flaw in it that -- which I wish 17 you would have addressed. I think that 18 regardless of what the age is, I don't think 19 graffiti is less offensive if it was committed 20 by someone under 21 or someone over 21 because I 21 know in the city of New York, lately we have 22 caught a large group of graffiti artists who 23 were in their 30s. 2217 1 And I think if this doesn't 2 pass both houses, that in the future you amend 3 the bill to make it regardless of any age, but 4 I do intend to vote for the bill. 5 I vote aye. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Senator Mendez. 8 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. 9 President, I request unanimous consent to be 10 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Senator, we're still on a roll call. We'll 13 take care of that in one second. I apologize. 14 SENATOR MENDEZ: Oh, oh, thank 15 you. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Read the results, please. 18 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded 19 in the negative on Calendar Number 306 are 20 Senators Abate, Connor, Lachman, Leichter, 21 Paterson and Waldon. Ayes 52, nays 6. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 The bill is passed. 2218 1 Senator Mendez. 2 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes. I am 3 requesting unanimous consent to be recorded in 4 the negative on Calendar Number 355, 355. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Senator Mendez, we didn't do that bill today. 7 It's been laid aside for the day, so we'll have 8 to hold off. 9 Secretary will read. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Calendar Number 403, by Senator Holland, Senate 12 Print 211, an act authorizing the United States 13 Military to recruit on the campuses of the 14 State University of New York and such other 15 state college campuses. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation, 17 please. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Senator Holland, an explanation has been asked 20 for by Senator Paterson. 21 SENATOR HOLLAND: Just as 22 read, that's basically it. The bill authorizes 23 the United States Military to recruit on 2219 1 campuses of the State University of New York. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Senator Paterson. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you 5 very much, Mr. President. If the sponsor would 6 please yield for a few questions. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Senator Holland, would you yield for a few 9 questions? 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Thank you. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 14 Holland, the legislation you proposed is 15 certainly going to be of great merit and 16 opportunity for many individuals around the 17 state, not the least of which would be 18 constituents in my district, many who have been 19 denied opportunity, many have been closed out 20 of other options and may seek careers, as they 21 have in large numbers, in fact, a majority in 22 the armed services, and just on that basis 23 alone, it would be a good bill. 2220 1 But, there is an issue under 2 lying the legislation that I would like to 3 bring to your attention and ask a few questions 4 and that relates to the many gay and lesbian 5 citizens around New York State whose tax 6 dollars provide the broad revenue bases for 7 which we can provide opportunities to ROTC to 8 come into our campuses, and these individuals 9 who are workers, who are teachers, who are 10 contributors to our society would not be 11 allowed to join the military because of an 12 existing national policy that we feel needs to 13 be changed. 14 Now, the national policy 15 notwithstanding, it would be New York State 16 taxpayer dollars that would allow for this type 17 of activity to continue; and so my question to 18 you is, with a standing gubernatorial executive 19 order to the contrary and a New York State 20 Supreme Court case also supporting it, my 21 question to you is, what other group, whether 22 it be African-Americans, whether it be Jewish 23 individuals, whether it be women, whether it be 2221 1 people, whether it be their race, their 2 religion, their national origin, their age or 3 their disability, what other group, if they 4 were being discriminated against with New York 5 State taxpayer dollars, would we allow this 6 process to continue? 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't know 8 if I totally understand your question, Senator, 9 but we are representatives of the people and we 10 usually create laws for the majority. I don't 11 think we should start here to create laws for 12 the African-American, separating them out, or 13 the Irish-Americans or the Italian-Americans. 14 This is a bill that allows 15 recruiting for everybody on the State 16 University campuses. All other State 17 University campuses allow it except the state 18 of New York because of Governor Cuomo's 19 Executive Order 28.1. I believe that was a 20 huge mistake. In fact, the university systems 21 have come back off of it a little bit and there 22 is some recruiting on the campuses now, but it 23 needs to be in law, and I think many people 2222 1 have stated that fact, Senator. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 3 President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Yes. 6 Senator Paterson, he continues 7 to yield. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 9 Holland, you're making my point precisely. I'm 10 not divorcing any individual, whether it by 11 reason of race or religion or national origin 12 or any other classification from the greater 13 family of New York, from the collective 14 citizenry that pay taxes in this state and seek 15 opportunity within the state service. 16 What I'm saying to you is that if 17 there is open discrimination of any particular 18 group other than the group that's affected by 19 this legislation, I'm suggesting to you that we 20 would never tolerate it, that we would not 21 allow any resources of our state, any dollars 22 that were contributed by the citizens of our 23 state to be used in a fashion that 2223 1 discriminates against individuals, even if it 2 does create the great opportunity that it does. 3 And so my question to you was, 4 how can we tolerate allowing for there to be 5 this recruitment on campuses when it has an 6 open policy of discrimination which contravenes 7 the Governor's executive order and a Supreme 8 Court case, Doe versus SUNY, from 1993 which was 9 upheld by the court because of the Governor's 10 executive order? 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Doe versus 12 SUNY? I thought it was Doe versus Rosa, but - 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Right, 14 that's the same case, it had different names at 15 different times. 16 SENATOR HOLLAND: Again, 17 Senator, I think we pass laws for the majority 18 and this is a definite majority situation and 19 we should allow recruiting on the State 20 University campuses for all. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, 22 Mr. President, through you, if Senator Holland 23 would yield for a question. 2224 1 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, I do. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Senator continues to yield. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm a 5 little bit confused by the response. Are we 6 passing laws to suit the majority, or are we 7 passing laws that are fair to all? 8 There are a number of laws we 9 could pass that would suit the majority, but 10 they would be openly discriminatory and they 11 would create a situation in which there would 12 be a denial of opportunity for citizens in the 13 state. 14 If we are passing legislation 15 that is fair to all citizens, meaning that 16 there may be greater opportunity for some but 17 there is no limitation of opportunity for any, 18 then we would have to vote against this 19 legislation because we are engaging a policy 20 that the military has that is not accepted here 21 in New York State. 22 And so, if you would please 23 clarify and let me know, are we passing a law 2225 1 that simply suits the majority, or are we 2 passing a law that's fair to all citizens? 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, I'm 4 sure that you and I and everybody in this 5 chamber would like to pass laws that are fair 6 to everyone in the state of New York. I don't 7 believe that's ever done. I think we have to 8 pass laws for the majority, that suit the 9 majority, that are best for the majority, and I 10 think this bill absolutely does that. 11 I don't think, in answer to 12 your question, that we ever have passed a law 13 that is approved by 100 percent of the people 14 in this state or this nation or my town or 15 village. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 17 Mr. President, and thank you, Senator Holland, 18 for the answer. If the Senator would continue 19 to yield. 20 Senator, I think there is a 21 slight misunderstanding between the two of us 22 of what we're actually talking about. I'm not 23 talking about legislation that everyone agrees 2226 1 with. I certainly understand and have voted in 2 the negative on a number of pieces of 3 legislation in this chamber, but I accept the 4 fact that the majority of Senators and the 5 majority of people that they represent are in 6 favor of the legislation; and, therefore, even 7 though I may have the minority opinion as a 8 citizen of this state, I accept that the 9 legislation's being passed. 10 What I'm talking about is what 11 I consider to be a policy that is in existence 12 that's prima facie, in other words, it 13 discriminates, it dictates that individuals 14 who, by the nature of sexual orientation, would 15 be excluded from what would be the opportunity 16 provided for in the legislation, provided for 17 by taxpayer dollars, maybe even their own 18 taxpayer dollars. 19 So, I'm not saying that 20 everyone has to agree with a law, I'm saying 21 that a law has to apply in such a way as it 22 affords equal protection under what I consider 23 to be the constitutional protections of the 2227 1 Fifth Amendment. 2 So, what I'm saying is that 3 this state, through its executive order, 4 through the Governor's executive order, has 5 banned this type of discrimination and that we 6 have a privilege to not allow for there to be 7 recruitment in this form on campuses if we so 8 choose. This is not what this legislation 9 does, it actually allows it to happen. 10 And so if we take a further 11 look at the Supreme Court case, the Doe case, 12 it upholds what the plaintiff was seeking in 13 this particular situation because of the fact 14 that the SUNY policy was in violation of the 15 Governor's executive order. 16 And so I guess what I'm asking 17 you is, do you not concede that the legislation 18 is discriminatory? 19 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, Senator, 20 I do not, and as a matter of fact it is -- I 21 think the opinion of Doe versus Rosa was based 22 on your President's opinion, "Don't ask, don't 23 tell," and that's what the opinion was based 2228 1 on. I don't think it's discriminatory, 2 Senator. I think not to let the military on 3 our campus would be discriminatory. 4 I think since the federal 5 military is our protector, nationally and 6 internationally, that it only makes sense to me 7 to allow them on the campus and, if we do not, 8 I think we're discriminating against the 9 military and the hiring of people from our 10 state. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you 12 very much, Senator. If Senator Holland would 13 continue to yield. 14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Senator yields. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: I 18 appreciate, Senator, what your interpretation 19 of the court's decision is, and though it's not 20 mine, it certainly is valid, but what I would 21 like to draw your attention to is what the 22 court's decision was, not the dicta, and the 23 decision was that there was discrimination in 2229 1 this particular case. I don't think that we 2 would be discriminating against the military as 3 much as we are sending a message to the 4 military that we're not going to invest in an 5 operation that practices this type of 6 discrimination, and so what I'm suggesting - 7 if I might speak on the bill, Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Senator Paterson, on the bill. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: What I'm 11 suggesting is that often there are very vital 12 pieces of legislation that we have introduced 13 that we have to be mindful may apply in such a 14 fashion as it denies opportunity to particular 15 individuals. There are some pieces of 16 legislation I'd like to see on the floor of 17 this Senate regarding the discrimination of gay 18 and lesbian citizens, the first of which would 19 be the civil rights legislation which would 20 allow equal opportunity in employment and in 21 housing and in education and in jobs. When we 22 look at that legislation, we will have an 23 opportunity to stop the discrimination there. 2230 1 If we look at the bias 2 legislation where we are going to increase the 3 penalties for bias crimes and provide for what 4 will be penalties for individuals in addition 5 to committing a violent act who are actually 6 motivated that way because of the race or 7 religion or the sexual orientation or the 8 national origin of the victim, I think that's 9 a way that we can address it. 10 For today we have a piece of 11 legislation that I think enables us the 12 opportunity to address it also. 13 I think I understand the great 14 opportunity that this legislation would 15 provide. There are numbers of people, 16 African-Americans, men and women from my 17 district, and other nationalities, who haven't 18 had much opportunity, and this legislation, its 19 main purpose is quite valid because it will 20 provide for it, but I'm not going to support a 21 bias bill that has bias included in it, and I'm 22 not going to be able to vote for this 23 legislation when I see individuals who have 2231 1 fought and suffered and paid throughout the 2 centuries for some reason that has nothing at 3 all to do with any kind of anti-social 4 behavior but is, rather, a personal expression; 5 and for that reason, I would encourage that 6 this bill not be supported because I think that 7 there is inherently, in spite of what is a very 8 valid purpose, an application of the 9 legislation which would affect people in 10 different ways. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Just so everybody is aware, we have a list here 13 of four more speakers on this particular bill, 14 starting with Senator Waldon. 15 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you 16 very much, Mr. President. Will Senator Holland 17 yield for a question or two? Holland? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Senator Holland, would you yield for some 20 questions from Senator Waldon? 21 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 He will yield, sir. 2232 1 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, do 2 you recall when we went from conscription to a 3 volunteer military? 4 SENATOR HOLLAND: I do. 5 SENATOR WALDON: Were you in 6 the military, Senator Holland? 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't have 8 the date when it happened, I just remember it 9 happened. Can you remind me of the date? 10 SENATOR WALDON: No, no. I 11 said were you in the military at all? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir, I 13 was in the United States Marine Corps. 14 SENATOR WALDON: Do you happen 15 to have -- did you or do you happen to have any 16 information regarding the numbers of those in 17 the military who are from the African-American, 18 Caribbean-American, Latino communities? 19 SENATOR HOLLAND: I do not 20 have the figures, no, sir. 21 SENATOR WALDON: Do you recall 22 when you were in the military -- well, if I 23 may, Mr. President, may I continue? 2233 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Yes. 3 SENATOR WALDON: Senator 4 continue to yield? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 We're following the Tully policy on this one, 7 sir. 8 SENATOR HOLLAND: That's 9 right. 10 SENATOR WALDON: Were you in 11 the service during the Korean era? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: I was in the 13 Reserves from '53 to '60 and in the Regulars 14 from '60 to '63. 15 SENATOR WALDON: Okay. Do you 16 recall at any time during your military 17 experience information that might indicate that 18 disproportionate to their numbers in society, 19 blacks, Afro-American, Caribbean-American and 20 other people of color have served in the 21 military? Do you understand what I'm saying? 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, I do. 23 Actually, the percentage changed greatly from 2234 1 1953 when I entered the Reserves until I got 2 out back in '63. The percentage of African 3 Americans increased by a great amount; I don't 4 know what the figures are. 5 SENATOR WALDON: If I 6 understand you correctly, Senator, the response 7 to my question is that yes, African-Americans 8 now far outnumber in the military their number 9 in our society-at-large, is that correct? 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: I would say 11 yes, sir. 12 SENATOR WALDON: Are you 13 aware that Colin Powell did not attend any of 14 our military academies? 15 SENATOR HOLLAND: I am. 16 SENATOR WALDON: Can you tell 17 us, please, from your information, where he 18 received his training as a military officer? 19 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't know 20 where he received his training in the military. 21 I know he went to the city of New York; I don't 22 know after that. 23 SENATOR WALDON: Well, I was 2235 1 in his class, his ROTC class, and he is a 2 product of ROTC and went on to become the 3 chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Thank 4 you, Senator Holland. Thank you, Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Senator Dollinger. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator 8 Holland yield just for a couple quick questions? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Senator, will you yield? 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: I yield. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Could you 13 tell me the current status of military 14 recruiters' access to state college campuses in 15 New York? 16 SENATOR HOLLAND: They are 17 basically on the campuses; the only thing they 18 can't do, they are prohibited from using 19 university placement services. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just so I 21 understand it, this bill doesn't specifically 22 say that they can use university placement 23 services, does it? 2236 1 SENATOR HOLLAND: It says that 2 they can do any recruitment on the -- that any 3 other organization can on the campuses of SUNY 4 and CUNY. 5 They are limited in that right 6 now. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. 8 Again, through you, Mr. President, there's 9 nothing in this bill that says that. This bill 10 says simply that they can send representatives 11 for the purposes of recruiting. 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: That's 13 correct. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It doesn't 15 say anything that says that they can use the 16 university's recruitment services, does it? 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Well, it 18 doesn't in so many words, no, but it basically 19 puts them on the same level as anybody else 20 recruiting on the campuses. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. 22 Well, I guess I'd just point out if that's what 23 is really intended, I would have been a bit 2237 1 more artful in my drafting, but let me ask 2 another couple questions. 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Okay. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is there 5 any evidence that you're aware of that, as a 6 consequence of the executive order that is 7 referenced in the memo in support of this, that 8 in any way the recruiting practices among any 9 population on the state campuses has been 10 affected as a consequence of that executive 11 order? 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Has it 13 changed any of the recruiting on state 14 campuses? 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 16 through you, Mr. President, Senator Holland, I 17 apologize, it's not an artful question at all. 18 Is there any evidence that in 19 the wake of the enactment of the executive 20 order, that the recruitment to any one of the 21 branches of the United States military was 22 impacted as a consequence of the order? It 23 went up, or went down or it stayed the same, do 2238 1 you have any evidence that shows its effect 2 SENATOR HOLLAND: I do not 3 have the percentages, Senator. I know that 4 there was a great debate when the order was 5 signed and a few other times, and I do not know 6 if there was a huge decrease or a huge 7 increase. I know that for the first amount of 8 time, they were more limited than they are 9 now, and then the SUNY people and the CUNY 10 people allowed them to come back on the 11 campuses, with the exception of the placement 12 services. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay, but 14 just so I understand it, Mr. President, there's 15 no evidence that the effect of the executive 16 order was in any way to deny opportunities to 17 anyone who was on the college campus who wanted 18 to be in the military, that it actually reduced 19 the number of people who gained access, is that 20 correct? 21 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, but 22 the thing is, it's much easier for college 23 students who are going to school on a 2239 1 University campus if the recruiters for whoever 2 ALCOA, whatever, the military, come to the 3 campuses, it makes it much easier for them, you 4 have to understand that. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I 6 understand that, but I'm simply trying to find 7 out is there any objective evidence, because I 8 think one of the points that's been made is, 9 would -- excuse me, has the executive order 10 denied opportunities in the military for our 11 college students? I think the answer that 12 you've given me is that you do not know. 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: I do not 14 have the percentages, no, I do not, but I feel 15 that there would have been more opportunities, 16 just as Senator Paterson said, more opportun 17 ities had the military been on the campus. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 19 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Holland 20 would continue to yield. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Senator continues to yield. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: There was 2240 1 a time in this country, Senator, when the 2 United States Military had a segregated policy, 3 that is, it had a white military and a black 4 military. Would it have been appropriate for 5 New York State at that time to suggest that 6 military recruiters couldn't come on campus 7 unless they recruited everyone to the same 8 Army? 9 SENATOR HOLLAND: I wasn't 10 here then, Senator, I don't know. It doesn't 11 sound right. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It doesn't 13 sound - 14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Doesn't sound 15 right. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, then 17 I'd ask you the following question: If the 18 United States Military said that, "Because of 19 your sexual orientation, you can be in the 20 Army, but if you have a sexual orientation that 21 is not a majority accepted sexual orientation, 22 you can't be in the Army," doesn't it seem as 23 though it doesn't sound right to you? 2241 1 SENATOR HOLLAND: This is 2 somewhat what I wanted to say to the last 3 question that Senator Paterson had. I know 4 what the court case says and that's why I'm 5 here, to change the court case. I think that's 6 wrong. I think we are discriminating against 7 our people who are students who are on the 8 campuses of SUNY and CUNY by not allowing the 9 military full access to the placement 10 services. I believe that is discrimination. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 12 through you, Mr. President, would it be 13 discrimination - 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator Holland, do you want to continue to 16 yield? 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Do you 19 think it's discrimination if the United States 20 Military refused to allow African-Americans to 21 serve in the military? 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: It certainly 23 would today, Senator. I don't know what it was 2242 1 back when you were a baby, or before that, when 2 things were different -- that was a joke. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It 4 actually was before I was a baby. 5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Things 6 change. It certainly is wrong, no question 7 about it. Things change, but I believe this 8 Executive Order 28.1 and the court case is 9 discrimination today. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. 11 Mr. President, on the bill. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Senator Dollinger, on the bill. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I 15 appreciate Senator Holland's candor. 16 I guess some things never 17 change, and I would just like to read something 18 that I think still has truth: "Every 19 generation has come to understand the basic 20 wisdom of our Constitution, that only by 21 protecting the freedom of others can we ensure 22 it for ourselves; that to encourage or allow 23 government to discriminate against any belief 2243 1 or creed or private way of life would threaten 2 us all. This is so because we could never be 3 sure which particular value would dominate 4 government at any particular point in time. 5 Only neutrality by government was deemed safe 6 and that is what our Constitution assures." 7 I understand what this proposal 8 seeks to do; I'm not sure, quite frankly, in 9 reading the bill it actually achieves what 10 Senator Holland would like to achieve. This 11 simply says that you can permit them access; 12 they already have access. But the lines I just 13 read from were from the Executive Order 28 in 14 which the state of New York, as a position, as 15 a state policy, the Governor, acting through 16 the executive order, said we are not going to 17 permit any institution which gets benefits from 18 the state to discriminate on the basis of 19 sexual orientation. 20 It seems to me that was the 21 policy back in 1983, that it changed a policy 22 that was a bad policy which in my judgment the 23 military discriminates on the basis of sexual 2244 1 orientation, much like it once did on the basis 2 of race. It was wrong to do it on the basis of 3 race; it's wrong to do it on the basis of 4 sexual orientation. 5 I daresay, if there were still 6 a segregated military on the basis of race, we 7 would be proud to ban military recruiters 8 because we believed that it was unjust and 9 unfair and against the American theory of 10 government to allow the military to 11 discriminate on the basis of race. 12 And so, Mr. President, I'm 13 going to vote against this, as I did last 14 year. It seems to me this is all about 15 fundamental liberties, it's all about what we 16 believe as a state, it's all about what we 17 share in common, much as Governor Cuomo -- then 18 Governor Cuomo outlined in the executive 19 order. It's all about the concept that 20 by neutrality, government was deemed safe, and 21 that's what our Constitution assured. 22 I regret the fact that the 23 United States military has a policy that 2245 1 prohibits and discriminates on the basis of 2 sexual orientation. I know that there are 3 people up on the wall in Vietnam, people who 4 gave their lives in World War II, people who 5 continue to give their lives for their country 6 who may be gay and it seems to me it's grossly 7 unfair that our country doesn't recognize that, 8 doesn't recognize that the military's policy on 9 this is wrong-headed, and it seems to me we in 10 this state should send a clear message to the 11 generals in Washington and to everyone else who 12 believes that sexual orientation is a fitting 13 way to divide people in our nation. That's 14 wrong. 15 We should only judge people by 16 the strength and the content of their character 17 as Dr. King once told us. It seems to me the 18 military does not do that. We in this state 19 sent them a message in 1983 that that was 20 wrong. I think by voting no against this bill 21 we will send them a continuing message that 22 that's wrong and, consistent with America's view 23 of fair-handedness for everyone, it ought to be 2246 1 changed. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Senator Abate. 4 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, on the 5 bill. I think my colleague - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Senator Abate, on the bill. 8 SENATOR ABATE: I think my 9 colleagues have so eloquently stated their 10 opposition to this bill; but I, too, want to be 11 on record stating why I oppose the bill. We 12 have before us two competing interests. One, I 13 believe, is fundamental, goes against the grain 14 of our Constitution, against the fundamental 15 reasons why we call ourselves Americans. 16 The other interest is the 17 capacity and the ability for the military to 18 recruit. And let me just take a moment to 19 discuss these interests. 20 When an entity such as -- an 21 institution such as the military engages in a 22 policy that either overtly or through disparate 23 impact affects a segment of our society -- in 2247 1 this case, it's lesbians and gays -- we as a 2 state and we as a legislature, have to send a 3 strong message that in nowhere, whether it's in 4 housing or in education or equal opportunity, 5 whether it's employment, that no member of our 6 society should face discrimination or be placed 7 in an unequal position because of who they are 8 and what they stand for. 9 If we were to substitute and 10 the policy were not if you're gay or lesbian, 11 you'll be dismissed by the military, if we 12 would dismiss gay and lesbian as a criteria and 13 put in its place a substitution, an Irish 14 American man, an Italian-American woman, a 15 Jewish man, a Latino, an African-American, we 16 today would have no sympathy or tolerance to 17 supporting this legislation because it would 18 have a disparate impact on a subset of students 19 in those facilities who want access to the 20 military but are denied that access because of 21 who they are, not because of their ability to 22 perform, be loyal Americans or do the job, just 23 because of the stigmatization because they 2248 1 belong to one group or another. 2 I believe this is a bill about 3 fundamental rights, equal protection under the 4 law. If we as a legislature can't put aside 5 our bigotry and our biases, and we all have 6 those biases at one time or the other, we must 7 recall in our lives where one of us have faced 8 discrimination. Whether it's our ancestors or 9 our current generation, we know what it feels 10 like to feel hatred and bigotry. We have to 11 take that pain we've individually felt, apply 12 that pain to this discriminated group, and 13 stand up. 14 The other interest is the 15 interest -- and I am sympathetic because there 16 are needed jobs, the military needs to recruit, 17 but by this bill, we're not saying to the 18 military they cannot recruit. What we're 19 saying is they cannot do it in state 20 institutions as long as they discriminate 21 against any member of New York State. They 22 still can advertise, they still can send 23 letters to students on campuses, they can use 2249 1 student groups, nothing prevents them from 2 setting up an office across the street from the 3 campus and doing recruitment. 4 So, now we're putting two 5 interests, one is of constitutional merit 6 against administrative capacity. In my mind, 7 while there is some merit on the part of the 8 military to have an ability to make it easy for 9 them to recruit, that is a lesser interest 10 today that must be protected, and for those 11 reasons, I oppose this bill. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Senator Marchi -- he waives. 14 Read the last section, 15 please -- I'm sorry, Senator Leichter, why do 16 you rise? 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Would 18 Senator Holland yield for a question or two, 19 please? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Senator Holland, do you yield to Senator 22 Leichter? 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 2250 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 He yields. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, 4 were you asked by the U.S. military or a 5 representative of the Pentagon to put in this 6 bill? 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: No. No, sir. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: This is all 9 your idea? 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: I hope so. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Did anybody 12 from the military come to you and say, "Senator 13 Holland, please help us. America's military 14 preparedness is being hurt. We need this bill 15 because we're being limited in our recruitment 16 on New York State campuses?" 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, sir. It 18 came about -- I believe you -- because of the 19 executive order of Mario Cuomo. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm sorry, 21 I didn't hear you, sir. 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: I said no, 23 sir, I believe it came about because of the 2251 1 executive order of Governor Cuomo. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: I under 3 stand, but is it your view that the military is 4 being limited and being impacted negatively by 5 that? 6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, I 7 believe it is, Senator, and I really object to 8 what Senator Abate said. She said let all the 9 other companies come in on the campuses and set 10 up and talk to the students the way they want 11 to. Have the military get a place across the 12 street. I think that's degrading. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: But, 14 Senator, it's your view, if I understand your 15 answer to my question, that this, as you see 16 it, negatively affects the U. S. military's 17 recruitment in New York State? 18 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, 20 if you would be good enough to continue to 21 yield. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator, do you continue to yield? 2252 1 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Senator continues to yield. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: And I 5 appreciate that that is your genuine, sincerely 6 held view, but did you check with anybody in 7 the military whether that was actually the 8 case? 9 SENATOR HOLLAND: What? What 10 was actually the case? 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Your believe 12 that the executive order had a negative - 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: I've read a 14 lot of things, Senator, and I can tell you that 15 they say, and here's some issues on focus, that 16 they are on campus, as you say, but they are 17 prohibited from using university placement 18 services that every other organization that the 19 recruiting office on campus can use. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if 21 you would continue to yield. 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, I do. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: It may be 2253 1 that that's really very insignificant, very 2 unimportant. I mean, I know that I have not 3 been approached by anybody from the military. I 4 don't believe that anybody from the military, 5 an official representative of the U. S. 6 military has said, "We need Senator Holland's 7 bill," and I was just interested what led you 8 to do this. You're obviously trying to help 9 the military, aren't you? 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: I believe we, 11 you and I, this country, this state, owes a lot 12 to the military of this nation and the people 13 who serve in that military. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Absolutely. 15 SENATOR HOLLAND: And I think 16 it's degrading when they cannot get the same 17 placement services or offer these services to 18 the students of the universities of this state 19 and are told to go across the street and find 20 something over there and maybe the students 21 will come and find you. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if 23 you'll agree with me, the issue is that we want 2254 1 to see the U. S. military, in order to carry 2 out their mission, to be able to recruit in a 3 way that the military thinks is important, is 4 that correct? 5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Is that the 7 basic issue here? 8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Or the same 9 rights as anybody else. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: But, 11 Senator, wouldn't it be something that we ought 12 to look to the military to tell us? Now, I 13 have a lot of respect for you as a Senator. You 14 told me you were in the Marine Corps. I'm sure 15 you served with great honor, but, you know, 16 you're not a representative of the Pentagon, 17 you're not really current on what their 18 recruitment needs are, nor am I. 19 I served in the military, too. 20 We have two members here who are colonels, they 21 served in the military, but they're not 22 current either as to what their recruitment 23 needs are. I just wonder whether this bill is 2255 1 really being driven by the need of the military 2 or whether there's another reason here. 3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, I 4 don't know if everybody in this house checks 5 with the highest authority whenever they pass a 6 bill. Maybe it's a kosher bill. Do we check 7 with God? No, we don't do that. I didn't 8 check with the Pentagon. I think it's a good 9 idea. I think the military ought to have the 10 rights that every other recruiting firm does on 11 campus, and that's why I put the bill in. If 12 you want to blame it solely on me, fine. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: But, 14 Senator, God has his representatives here, he's 15 got rabbis, you can check with rabbis. The 16 military has their representatives, too. I'm 17 not saying that you have to check with -- and 18 I'm embarrassed to say I can't pronounce the 19 name of our Chief of Staff. 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: I can't, 21 either. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: I would 23 accept that, "No, I didn't talk to the Chief of 2256 1 Staff, but I talked to this general and I 2 received a letter from this colonel." I mean, 3 I just don't understand why, well-intentioned 4 as you are, you're riding, you know, like the 5 cavalry to the rescue of the U. S. Military and 6 they're saying, "What's Holland doing? Who 7 needs this? We haven't asked for it." 8 SENATOR HOLLAND: One other 9 side of the argument that we already made is it 10 also opens up more opportunities for the 11 students on the campuses. Let's put that one 12 in. Do you want to try that one? I mean, 13 I've exasperated myself on the others. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, 15 then let me ask you, was there any student 16 group that reached out to you? 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: No. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Was there a 19 group of black students, since obviously -- and 20 I share the concern that they have the maximum 21 opportunity because we know the importance of 22 that, but did anybody ask of that group, ask 23 you to put in this bill? 2257 1 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, sir, but 2 a number of people in this house mentioned it. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. 4 Thank you, Senator, I appreciate it and, as 5 always, Senator Holland, you're very candid and 6 you're very forthright, very direct in your 7 answers. 8 I mean, it seems to me that 9 when you pass - 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Senator Leichter, are you on the bill? 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: If I may, 13 Mr. President, on the bill. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator Leichter, on the bill. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: If you have 17 a bill of this sort whose aim and purpose is to 18 assist the U. S. military in recruitment, the 19 U. S. military said, "We don't need it, we 20 didn't ask for it, not a single letter." I 21 think has anybody here received where the U. S. 22 military has said, "Do we really need this"? 23 And I must say, Senator Holland, and I'm not 2258 1 suggesting this was your motivation, but you 2 cannot help but feel there's a homophobic 3 content to this bill, that this bill really 4 doesn't have so much to do with the military as 5 it has to do with somehow stigmatizing gays and 6 lesbians, and that's really how the bill 7 strikes me and how it strikes many people. 8 If, indeed, there was a problem 9 here for the military, then it's something that 10 maybe we need to address; but when there is no 11 problem whatsoever and when New York State has 12 had a policy that we abhor discrimination in 13 any form, shape or manner against any group, 14 any individual, and that is a policy that we 15 very genuinely, sincerely hold, it's a solemn 16 belief that we have, and for that reason, we 17 have had this executive order which expresses 18 our policy, apparently has created no problems 19 for the military, so my question is, why this 20 bill, and I must say that the view that I have 21 of it and what comes across for me is that 22 we're not really dealing with the military; 23 what we're doing, unfortunately, is stigma 2259 1 tizing people, and for that reason, I cannot 2 support this bill. 3 Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Senator Hoblock. 6 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Thank you, 7 Mr. President. Just briefly on the bill. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Senator Hoblock, on the bill briefly. 10 SENATOR HOBLOCK: I listened 11 to the debate last year, listened to the debate 12 this year. I've heard the arguments on this 13 issue so many times; and quite frankly, I get a 14 little more surprised all the time in terms of 15 what is being brought into the debate. 16 Senator Leichter, in all due 17 respect, I don't know of anybody that is trying 18 to push for this bill, either. I don't think 19 that the defense of our country is going to 20 rest on the rise or fall of this bill. I think 21 there's been a number of recruiters that have 22 expressed an interest and felt that they have 23 been discriminated against and I guess it's a 2260 1 matter of that and a matter of courtesy. 2 We also see being brought into 3 the bill the issue that powers in Washington, 4 the President and Congress have made certain 5 decisions about who ought to be in the military 6 or not, and we're debating this bill because we 7 ought to make a statement that we disagree with 8 their decisions. 9 Well, respectfully, I would 10 request that you write to President Clinton and 11 ask him to change his mind, or perhaps you 12 might want to run for Congress and be part of 13 that decision-making process; but the point is, 14 that happens to be what they decided and we are 15 here in New York living with those decisions 16 like we live with all others. And I tell you 17 that we could probably spend a lot of time 18 passing a lot of legislation here making 19 statements to Washington because we disagree 20 with what's going on there. 21 But, we're dealing with the 22 reality here and the reality is that because we 23 disagree or there are some that disagree with 2261 1 some of the policies made in Washington as it 2 concerns our United States military, therefore, 3 we're going to discriminate against it and we 4 are going to choose where they're going to be 5 and where they're not going to be. 6 They are on private colleges 7 and universities now. Why are we not debating 8 taking them off of those campuses? They 9 receive taxpayers' funds. Why are we not doing 10 that? Why don't we start debating back and 11 forth as to where everybody ought to go based 12 on our individual beliefs, our social values, 13 as to what is discrimination and what's not. 14 All we're trying to do here is 15 to give students fair opportunity and give an 16 employer fair opportunity. But, in trying to 17 develop that fair opportunity, it's got to be 18 based on what our view of the social values are 19 of that particular employer or the group 20 they're trying to attract. I think we've got 21 to get beyond that. 22 If somebody feels that they 23 shouldn't be there, fine, don't pander to them, 2262 1 don't apply; but by doing so, I think we're 2 denying a lot of other people and I think 3 that's as much discrimination, I don't think 4 it's any less, it's as much. 5 So Senator Holland, I'm going 6 to congratulate you on this bill and I'll be 7 glad to support it. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Senator Gold. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, Mr. 11 President, I'll be very brief, but I wanted to 12 just clear something up. I listened to Senator 13 Leichter and I kept wondering, and I didn't 14 want to ask him to yield, but I said to myself 15 if Senator Holland did or did not have the 16 support of the government would it change his 17 vote? So, I don't understand the question. 18 Senator Holland, it wouldn't 19 change my vote. I think that a member is 20 allowed to have an idea and bring it to the 21 floor and get support or not. But on all the 22 other scores, I do agree with the position of 23 those who feel that there is something that may 2263 1 be even more important than this bill and 2 that's the divisiveness of where it winds up. 3 I've listened to some of my 4 colleagues in terms of what the military has 5 done for people in this country, and there's no 6 doubt but that some people have done very well 7 who may not have done well if they had not been 8 in the military; but I think there is a major 9 issue in the military which too many people in 10 this country are not dealing with and it's 11 something we should deal with. 12 This is a phenomenal country. 13 I wouldn't want to live any place else. It 14 doesn't mean that we can't make it better, and 15 the problem is that when people talk about 16 making it better, there's always somebody who 17 says, "If you don't like it here, move." Well, 18 I ain't moving. I'm staying here and we're 19 going to fight to make it better, and one of 20 the ways we can make it better is to make 21 people feel more comfortable where they're 22 being made uncomfortable in a situation where 23 other people have no right to make them feel 2264 1 uncomfortable and, for the reasons that have 2 been set forth, I, too, will vote against the 3 bill. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 7 This act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Excuse me. Senator Paterson, why do you rise? 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 11 President, we would like a slow roll call 12 on this bill. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 I need to see five Senators up for a slow roll 15 call. 16 A slow roll call has been 17 called for. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Can we sound 19 the bell? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Would the bells ring, please, for a slow roll 22 call? 23 For the notice of everyone 2265 1 within earshot, there has been a slow roll call 2 requested by Senator Paterson on this bill, S 3 211. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 5 SENATOR ABATE: No. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Alesi. 7 (Affirmative indication) 8 Senator Babbush. 9 SENATOR BABBUSH: No. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno. 11 (Affirmative indication) 12 Senator Connor. 13 (Negative indication) 14 Senator Cook. 15 (There was no response.) 16 Senator DeFrancisco. 17 (There was no response.) 18 Senator DiCarlo. 19 SENATOR DiCARLO: Aye. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator 21 Dollinger. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: To explain 23 my vote, Mr. President. 2266 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Senator DiCarlo to explain his vote. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think 4 I'm Senator Dollinger, but - 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Senator Dollinger. You look so much alike, I 7 couldn't help it. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I just have 9 to respond to a comment made by the chairman of 10 the Veterans Committee which I appreciate but I 11 respectfully disagree with. When the comment 12 is that by this bill what we're really trying 13 to do is give the military a fair opportunity, 14 it seems to me that what we're doing is giving 15 someone a fair opportunity who doesn't, in 16 turn, give a fair opportunity to the students 17 in our schools, And a fair opportunity would 18 be to look someone in the eye and say, "You're 19 smart enough, you're strong enough, you've got 20 enough courage, you've got enough personal 21 fortitude to give your life for your country, 22 and under those circumstances, you can be a 23 member of the United States military;" but it 2267 1 seems to me what we do is we deny them a fair 2 opportunity when what we say is, "You can have 3 all those things, but if you happen to be gay, 4 you can't do it." That's fundamentally unfair. 5 So, it seems to me the notion 6 that we're giving someone a fair opportunity to 7 be unfair to the students that I represent, all 8 the students that I represent, it seems to me 9 there is something wrong with that and under 10 those circumstances, as I said before, I will 11 be voting against this bill. 12 No. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Continue the roll. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 16 (There was no response.) 17 Senator Farley. 18 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold. 20 SENATOR GOLD: No. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator 22 Gonzalez. 23 SENATOR GONZALEZ: No. 2268 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2 Goodman. 3 SENATOR GOODMAN: No. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator 5 Hannon. 6 (There was no response.) 7 Senator Hoblock. 8 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator 10 Hoffmann. 11 (There was no response.) 12 Senator Holland. 13 (Affirmative indication) 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator 15 Johnson. 16 (There was no response.) 17 Senator Kruger. 18 SENATOR KRUGER: No. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 20 SENATOR KUHL: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator 22 Lachman. 23 SENATOR LACHMAN: No. 2269 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack. 2 SENATOR LACK: Aye. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin. 4 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle. 6 SENATOR LaVALLE: Aye. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell. 8 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator 10 Leichter. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: No. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy. 13 SENATOR LEVY: Aye. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous. 15 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Maltese. 18 (There was no response.) 19 Senator Marcellino. 20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 22 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2270 1 Markowitz. 2 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator 4 Maziarz. 5 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Aye. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez. 7 (There was no response.) 8 Senator Montgomery. 9 (There was no response.) 10 Senator Nanula. 11 SENATOR NANULA: No. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator 13 Nozzolio. 14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator 16 Onorato. 17 SENATOR ONORATO: No. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator 19 Oppenheimer. 20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator 22 Padavan. 23 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 2271 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2 Paterson. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 4 President, to explain my vote. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Senator Paterson, to explain his vote. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: The 8 executive order that was promulgated in 1983 by 9 Governor Cuomo, 28.1, bans this type of 10 discrimination that we've been discussing in 11 state service and employment. What is 12 happening here is that - 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Excuse me, Senator Paterson. 15 Ladies and gentlemen, can we 16 have some order in the house to hear the 17 Senator? 18 Thank you very much. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: What is 20 happening, Mr. President, is that ROTC, or any 21 other recruiter, any other employer, ALCOA, are 22 subjected to the same -- would be subjected to 23 the same treatment if they were discriminating 2272 1 against anybody by reason of race or religion 2 or national origin or sexual orientation. 3 So what we're really saying is 4 we're not talking about a national policy, 5 we're talking about a state policy and we're 6 saying that if there is a clear evidence of 7 discrimination, that we treat the employers the 8 same. And this is the reason that we would 9 suggest that there are other ways of recruit 10 ment that the military can engage in without 11 this need to come on campuses and do it at the 12 expense of taxpayers who are, at the same time, 13 being victimized. 14 This bill does create a 15 tremendous opportunity for people who have been 16 denied opportunity; but maybe we're really 17 missing the message that Dr. King admonished us 18 over a quarter of century ago, that when 19 there is no justice anywhere, there's injustice 20 everywhere. 21 So I would not want to be in a 22 situation where myself or any other group of 23 people are benefitting when others are being 2273 1 denied, and for that, Mr. President, I must 2 vote no on this legislation. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Continue the roll, please. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator 6 Present. 7 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 9 SENATOR RATH: Yes. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 11 SENATOR SALAND: Aye. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator 13 Santiago. 14 (There was no response.) 15 Senator Seabrook. 16 SENATOR SEABROOK: No. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears. 18 SENATOR SEARS: Aye. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward. 20 SENATOR SEWARD: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos. 22 (Affirmative indication) 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 2274 1 SENATOR SMITH: No. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 3 (There was no response.) 4 Senator Stachowski. 5 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Yes. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 Stafford. 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator 10 Stavisky. 11 SENATOR STAVISKY: No. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo. 13 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully. 15 SENATOR TULLY: Aye. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Velella. 18 (Affirmative indication) 19 Senator Volker. 20 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon. 22 (Affirmative indication) 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2275 1 Wright. 2 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Will you call the absentees, please? 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator 6 DeFrancisco. 7 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada, 9 excused. 10 Senator Hannon. 11 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator 13 Hoffmann. 14 (There was no response.) 15 Senator Johnson. 16 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator 18 Maltese. 19 (There was no response.) 20 Senator Mendez. 21 SENATOR MENDEZ: No. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator 23 Montgomery. 2276 1 (There was no response.) 2 Senator Santiago. 3 (There was no response.) 4 Senator Spano. 5 (There was no response.) 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Results, please. 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36, nays 9 19. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 The bill is passed. 12 Senator Skelos. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. 14 President, is there any housekeeping at the 15 desk? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 No, there is none, sir. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: There being 19 no further business, I move we adjourn until 20 Tuesday, March 19th, 19 - 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Senator Paterson? 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Would you 2277 1 please recognize Senator Mendez. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Senator Mendez. 4 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, 5 Mr. President. There is going to be a 6 Democratic conference. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Excuse me. 9 SENATOR MENDEZ: There is 10 going to be a Minority conference in Room 314 11 immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 There is an immediate call after session ends, 14 Room 314, for the Democrat conference. 15 Senator Skelos. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: There being 17 no further business, I move we adjourn until 18 Tuesday, March 19, 1996, at 3:00 p.m. sharp. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Without objection, the Senate stands adjourned 21 until Tuesday, March 19 at 3:00 p.m. sharp. 22 (Whereupon, at 4:35 p.m., the 23 Senate adjourned.)