Tuesday, March 19, 1996

2278 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 March 19, 1996 10 3:00 p.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 2279 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will 3 come to order. 4 Would everyone please rise and 5 repeat with me the Pledge of Allegiance. 6 (Whereupon, the Senate and those 7 present joined in the Pledge of Allegiance to 8 the Flag.) 9 The invocation today will be 10 given by the Reverend Peter G. Young, Blessed 11 Sacrament Church, Bolton Landing. 12 FATHER PETER YOUNG: Let us 13 pray. May we pray today for all of those that 14 are elected, for ourselves that we might be 15 delivered from all illusion of superiority, from 16 all pretense of righteousness, from all 17 arrogance and hardness of heart; that we might 18 know the meaning of compassion in all of our 19 elected duties and in this Senate chamber. 20 We ask You this in Your name, now 21 and forever more. Amen. 22 THE PRESIDENT: Amen. 23 Reading of the Journal. 2280 1 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 2 Monday, March 18. The Senate met pursuant to 3 adjournment, Senator Marcellino in the chair. 4 The Journal of Sunday, March 17th, was read and 5 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 6 THE PRESIDENT: Without 7 objection, the Journal stands approved as read. 8 Presentation of petitions. 9 Messages from the Assembly. 10 Messages from the Governor. 11 Reports of standing committees. 12 The Secretary will read. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath, 14 from the Committee on Local Government, offers 15 up the following bills: 16 Senate Print 293, by Senator 17 Cook, an act to amend the County Law, in 18 relation to review and approval of names of 19 rights of way; 20 668, by Senator Padavan, an act 21 to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation 22 to reporting the information to United States 23 Immigration and Naturalization Service; 2281 1 1092, by Senator Farley, an act 2 to amend the Real Property Tax Law and the 3 Social Services Law, in relation to withholding 4 Social Services rents; 5 2677, by Senator Leibell, an act 6 authorizing the Town of Southeast, Putnam 7 County, to establish a road or highway 8 improvement district; 9 3067, with amendments, by Senator 10 Larkin, an act to amend the General Municipal 11 Law and the State Finance Law, in relation to 12 dispensing of performance and payment bonds; 13 3360, by Senator Kuhl, an act to 14 amend the General Municipal Law, in relation to 15 authorizing municipal cooperation to establish 16 volunteer cemetery maintenance cleanup; 17 3740A, by Senator LaValle, an act 18 authorizing advisory, nonbinding referendum in 19 the Towns of Easthampton and Riverhead; 20 4294, by Senator Marcellino, an 21 act to amend the General Municipal Law, in 22 relation to establishing the Town of Huntington 23 industrial development agency; 2282 1 5536, by Senator Holland, an act 2 to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in relation 3 to exempting certain municipalities from 4 provisions of service of petitions; 5 6123, by Senator Leibell, an act 6 to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation 7 to buildings that are part of urban development; 8 6124, by Senator Leibell, an act 9 to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation 10 to powers of municipalities in carrying out 11 urban renewal plans. 12 Senator Levy, from the Committee 13 on Transportation, offers up the following 14 bills: 15 Senate Print 372, by Senator 16 Levy, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic 17 Law, in relation to increasing the penalties for 18 aggravated unlicensed operation; 19 1619C, by Senator Goodman, an act 20 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 21 relation to mandatory suspensions of Class E 22 licenses; 23 5306A, by Senator Padavan, an act 2283 1 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law and the 2 Administrative Code of the City of New York, in 3 relation to the suspension of license and 4 registration privileges; 5 5773, by Senator Marcellino, an 6 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 7 relation to certificates of inspection; 8 6171, by Senator Holland, an act 9 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 10 relation to providing for distinctive animal 11 population control fund; 12 6181, by Senator Trunzo, an act 13 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 14 relation to allowing persons to indicate an 15 emergency contact person; 16 6219, by Senator Volker, an act 17 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 18 relation to additional traffic regulations; 19 6298, by Senator Stafford, an act 20 to amend the Highway Law, in relation to 21 implementing an exchange of highways between the 22 state and county of Washington; 23 6311, by Senator Bruno, an act to 2284 1 amend the Highway Law, in relation to 2 designating a portion of the state highway 3 system as the Turning Point Trail; 4 6435, by Senator Volker, an act 5 to amend the Highway Law, in relation to 6 including bicycle path and pedestrian paths 7 within certain construction improvements. 8 Senator Cook, from the Committee 9 on Education, offers up the following bills: 10 Senate Print 3584, by Senator 11 Cook, an act to amend the Education Law, in 12 relation to building aid for joint municipal 13 facilities; 14 6272, by Senator Cook, an act to 15 amend the Education Law, in relation to terms of 16 office of chapters for the Rural Education 17 Advisory Committee; 18 6433, by Senator Padavan, an act 19 to amend Chapter 399 of the Laws of 1995, 20 amending the Education Law. 21 Senator Saland, from the 22 Committee on Children and Families, offers up 23 the following bills: 2285 1 Senate Print 1987, by Senator 2 Johnson, an act to amend the Domestic Relations 3 Law, in relation to visitation rights to infant 4 grandchildren; 5 2105, by Senator Saland, an act 6 to amend the Social Services Law and the Public 7 Health Law, in relation to disclosure of HIV 8 related information; 9 3474, by Senator Saland, an act 10 to amend the Social Services Law and the 11 Domestic Relations Law, in relation to venue and 12 termination of parental rights; 13 4039, by Senator Saland, an act 14 to amend the Social Services Law, in relation to 15 the capacity of foster family boarding homes; 16 4951B, by Senator Marcellino, an 17 act to amend the Social Services Law, in 18 relation to child day care. 19 Senator DeFrancisco, from the 20 Committee on Tourism, Recreation and Sports 21 Development, offers up the following bills: 22 Senate Print 6237, with 23 amendments, by Senator Nozzolio, an act to amend 2286 1 the Navigation Law, in relation to type of life 2 preservers; 3 6238, by Senator DeFrancisco, an 4 act to amend the Parks, Recreation and Historic 5 Preservation Law, the General Municipal Law, and 6 the New York State Urban Development Corporation 7 Act, in relation to the New York heritage 8 system; 9 Senator Marcellino, from the 10 Committee on Environmental Conservation, offers 11 up the following bills: 12 Senate Print 6090B, by Senator 13 Marcellino, an act to amend the Environmental 14 Conservation Law, in relation to prohibiting the 15 possession and transportation of live venomous 16 reptiles; and 17 6112, by Senator LaValle, an act 18 to amend the Environmental Conservation Law, in 19 relation to the Central Pine Barrens 20 comprehensive land use plan. 21 All bills directly for third 22 reading. 23 THE PRESIDENT: Without 2287 1 objection, all bills directly to third reading. 2 Reports of select committees. 3 Communications and reports from 4 state officers. 5 The Chair hands down the 6 following report from the Board of Elections 7 certifying those persons elected to the State 8 Senate at the February 15, 1996, special 9 election. Notice will be filed in the Journal. 10 Motions and resolutions. 11 Senator Cook. 12 SENATOR COOK: Madam President, 13 please place a sponsor's star on Calendar Number 14 412. 15 On behalf of Senator Goodman, on 16 page 21, I offer the following amendments to 17 Calendar 444, Senate Print 5743, and ask that 18 said bill retain its place on the Third Reading 19 Calendar. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments 21 received. 22 SENATOR COOK: And I move that 23 the following bill be discharged from committee 2288 1 and be recommitted with instructions to strike 2 the enacting clause: That's Senate Bill 6522, 3 by Senator Nozzolio. 4 THE PRESIDENT: Enacting clause 5 is struck. 6 Senator Bruno, we have one 7 substitution. 8 SENATOR BRUNO: Please make the 9 substitution. 10 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 11 will read. 12 THE SECRETARY: On page 7, 13 Senator LaValle moves to discharge from the 14 Committee on Commerce, Economic Development, and 15 Small Business, Assembly Bill 5417, and 16 substitute it for the identical Senate Bill 17 3173. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 19 Substitutions ordered. 20 Senator Bruno. 21 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. 22 Can we at this time adopt the Resolution 23 Calendar. 2289 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 motion is to adopt the Resolution Calendar. 3 All those in favor, signify by 4 saying aye. 5 (Response of "Aye.") 6 Opposed, nay. 7 (There was no response.) 8 The Resolution Calendar is 9 adopted. 10 Chair recognizes Senator Hoblock. 11 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Mr. President. 12 Resolution 2732, can we open that up for 13 cosponsorship, please? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 15 Resolution Calendar Number 2732 is open for 16 sponsorship for any members of the Majority or 17 Minority. Please indicate to the desk if you 18 would like to be a sponsor. We'll leave that 19 open for the balance of session. Members who 20 wish to ask so indicate. 21 Senator Bruno. 22 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 23 can we at this time take up the noncontroversial 2290 1 calendar? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Bruno, before we take up the noncontroversial 4 calendar, the resolution being offered up for 5 joint sponsorship by Senator Hoblock deals with 6 the commemoration of the 50th Anniversary of the 7 Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association. 8 Indications from the members are that most 9 everybody here would like to be a sponsor. 10 Should we take the procedure we have used in the 11 past of putting everybody on the resolution 12 excepting those who indicate they don't want to 13 be on? 14 SENATOR BRUNO: Direct the 15 Secretary to put them all on unless it's 16 indicated otherwise. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 18 you, Senator Bruno. I will direct the Secretary 19 to place everybody on the resolution except for 20 those members indicating that they don't wish to 21 be on that. 22 With that, I ask the Secretary to 23 read the noncontroversial calendar. 2291 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 167, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 4533, an 3 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law, 4 in relation to the general powers of the New 5 York State Environmental Facilities Corporation. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Secretary will read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll.) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 15 is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 182, by 17 Senator Velella, Senate Print 5395A, an act to 18 amend the Public Health Law, in relation to the 19 testing of pregnant women for the human virus 20 HIV. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 23 bill aside. 2292 1 THE SECRETARY: 228, by the 2 Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill 7801A, an act 3 to amend the Education Law, in relation to the 4 appointment of a superintendent or associate 5 superintendent of schools. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Secretary will read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll.) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 15 is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 274, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 3502A, an 18 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in 19 relation to excluding certain expenditures for 20 medical care. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 Secretary will read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2293 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 3 roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll.) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 7 is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 308, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 6038, an act 10 to amend the Railroad Law, in relation to police 11 officers of the commuter railroad. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 Secretary will read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll.) 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 20 the results when tabulated. 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48, nays 1. 22 Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 2294 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 350, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 4910, an 4 act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation 5 to limiting the automatic stay upon the filing 6 of a notice of review with the Administrative 7 Review Board. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Secretary will read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 383, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 498, an 20 act to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law, 21 in relation to credit card sales. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 2295 1 bill aside. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 396, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 3814, an 4 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 5 the written statement of the crime victim in 6 making the parole release decision. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Secretary will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect on the first day of 11 November. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 398, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 4500, an 20 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 21 qualification for employment as a parole 22 officer. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 2296 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 2 bill aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 400, by 4 Senator Nozzolio, Senate Bill 5017A, an act to 5 amend the Correction Law, in relation to 6 notification to law enforcement officials. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Secretary will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 402, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 35, an act 19 to authorize the Salvation Army Eastern 20 Territorial School for Officers Training to 21 change its name to the Salvation Army Training 22 College. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2297 1 Secretary will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 405, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 1976, an act 12 to amend the Education Law and the Local Finance 13 Law, in relation to refinancing of payments by 14 certain employers. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Secretary will read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll.) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 2298 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 406, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 4131A, an 4 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to 5 World War II military service credit for certain 6 members. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Secretary will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 424, by member of the Assembly Feldman, Assembly 19 Print 4883, an act to amend the New York State 20 Printing and Public Documents Law, in relation 21 to requiring vegetable ink printing. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 Secretary will read the last section. 2299 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 8 is passed. 9 Senator Skelos, that completes 10 the noncontroversial calendar. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Please recognize 12 Senator Saland. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 14 recognizes Senator Saland. 15 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 16 President. Mr. President, I would like to 17 remove a star from Calendar 447, Senate 5104A. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: At the 19 request of the sponsor, the star will be removed 20 on Calendar Number 447. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Just stand at 22 ease for a minute. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 2300 1 will stand at ease for just one moment. 2 (The Senate stood at ease 3 briefly.) 4 Senator Skelos. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 6 if we could take up the controversial calendar 7 starting with Calendar Number 398, Senate 4500, 8 by Senator Nozzolio. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will read the controversial calendar beginning 11 with Calendar Number 398, by Senator Nozzolio. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 398, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 4500, an 14 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 15 qualification for employment as a parole 16 officer. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Nozzolio, an explanation of Calendar Number 398 19 has been asked for by the Acting Minority 20 Leader, Senator Paterson. 21 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 22 President. 23 Mr. President, my colleagues, 2301 1 this measure before us today amends the 2 Executive Law, to expressly forbid the 3 employment of convicted felons as parole 4 officers. In addition, certain individuals 5 convicted of misdemeanors would, in the 6 chairman's discretion, also be barred from 7 employment. 8 Existing law requires that parole 9 officers be physically, mentally and morally 10 fitted for the position. It seems logical that 11 an individual who is convicted of a felony 12 should not be entrusted with a state issued 13 weapon and, unfortunately, the Executive Law 14 contains no such specific prohibition. 15 Parole officers as peace officers 16 are authorized to carry weapons, and this law - 17 are exempted from any laws prohibiting the 18 criminal possession of weapons. Certainly we 19 believe that this was a loophole in the law that 20 should be remedied. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Paterson. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 2302 1 President. If Senator Nozzolio would yield for 2 a question? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Nozzolio, do you yield to Senator Paterson? 5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'd be happy 6 to yield to the Minority Leader. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 yields. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 10 Senator Nozzolio. My question pertains to a 11 discussion I listened to with great interest 12 last year between yourself, Senator Nozzolio and 13 Senator Montgomery about restricting the 14 employment of individuals working for the 15 Department of Youth Services. 16 And my question is that, would it 17 not be, in some cases -- certainly not all, but 18 in some cases rather effective for those 19 individuals who have been rehabilitated by the 20 criminal justice system that they actually would 21 act as good counselors for those who would be on 22 parole or perhaps in youth institutions? 23 I understand your concern about 2303 1 the weapons. But just on the general point of 2 employment, I'm just becoming a little bit 3 concerned that there is any employment for 4 anyone who has been incarcerated, and I'm 5 wondering if these wouldn't be, perhaps, the 6 best places for some who have been 7 rehabilitated. 8 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. Minority 9 Leader, I don't believe that that necessarily is 10 an argument that would deter us from 11 establishing this additional standard, that this 12 additional standard says that those who commit a 13 felony need not apply. 14 I think that's very consistent 15 with other law enforcement entities as well as 16 those who are judged to be part of the law 17 enforcement component, and I believe that the 18 standards have been high, are held high by those 19 who are participants in law enforcement, and 20 parole officers are very much on the front lines 21 of that enforcement. 22 I think this measure simply rises 23 to the standards already existing by parole 2304 1 officers who are very dedicated in the 2 performance of their duty across this state, and 3 I believe very strongly that this additional 4 standard is something that parole officers 5 welcome and that we should very much ensure 6 continues. 7 Now, there are plenty of places 8 in the criminal justice system, and I believe 9 your question is -- you've asked for my opinion, 10 and I think that in sharing my opinion with you 11 there may be -- may be -- some areas in the 12 criminal justice system where those who 13 participated in breaking the law could help 14 advise those who -- after they paid their debt 15 to society could advise those who are on the 16 front lines. But this is in my opinion, sir, 17 really a place for higher standards, not lower 18 standards. It is a place for this type of 19 additional criteria. 20 Thank you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Paterson. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 2305 1 President. If the Senator would continue to 2 yield? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Nozzolio, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr. 6 President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 continues to yield. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I 10 don't disagree with a thing that you have said. 11 However, the scope of this legislation carries 12 beyond some of the acts that I think would be of 13 the source that we would want to bar 14 employment. For instance, at the discretion of 15 the Commissioner, you are actually extending 16 this to misdemeanors. 17 Now, resisting arrest might be a 18 misdemeanor. There are a number of misdemeanors 19 that I don't know would qualify to meet the 20 threshold that would, in a sense, change the 21 standard from -- as high as you're interested in 22 maintaining. 23 My question is, why would you 2306 1 include in the list of offenses some that really 2 may relate to a momentary act or something that 3 did not have a far-reaching conclusion for which 4 a person is now being barred from service for 5 the rest of their life? 6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President, 7 in response to Senator Paterson's question. 8 Yes, Senator, there certainly are 9 also the potential that misdemeanors under this 10 law would bar an individual from being a parole 11 officer. Those misdemeanors, however, are to be 12 judged in the chairman's discretion, and the 13 chairman in, again, raising the bar, ensuring 14 that the standards of conduct and behavior are 15 as exemplary as possible, could look to certain 16 misdemeanor of moral turpitude, a misdemeanor 17 that clearly demonstrates an ability or 18 inability to respect law, and it would give the 19 discretion to the chairman, the opportunity to 20 look at the individual circumstances surrounding 21 the commission of that misdemeanor. 22 Certainly, there are misdemeanors 23 that are extremely egregious, that show a total 2307 1 lack of respect for law and order, a total lack 2 of respect for a particular conduct that may, 3 because of the facts, warrant exclusion from 4 this profession, and that's why the discretion, 5 Senator, is placed in there for certain types of 6 crime. 7 And it's the same type of 8 discretion. I don't think that we should for 9 one minute think this is not the same type of 10 discretion that every law enforcement entity 11 engages in in studying whether or not they will 12 take an individual into their service. 13 Thank you, Mr. President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Paterson. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 17 thank Senator Nozzolio for his answers. 18 On the bill. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Paterson on the bill. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: I think 22 Senator Montgomery made some very good points on 23 another issue that apply in this particular case 2308 1 this year. I think that the discretion that 2 we're leaving is an invitation for the 3 possibility of abuse; and I think that, because 4 what we're often talking about, particularly 5 with some misdemeanor offenses, are acts taken 6 by individuals when they are younger and at a 7 point that they don't fully understand the 8 meaning of the criminal justice system or the 9 meaning of law or, for reasons of immaturity, 10 they don't understand it at the moment that they 11 violated the law. 12 They certainly should be 13 punished. They should serve out any sentence or 14 any restriction that we put on them. Down the 15 road, I don't know if it's a good idea to 16 further restrict them in perpetuity for an 17 action that may have come as the result of 18 something that went on when they were younger. 19 Now, Senator Nozzolio addresses 20 that by leaving this to the discretion of the 21 Commissioner, which demonstrates that he has 22 understanding on this particular point. I feel 23 that there would be no reason beyond a certain 2309 1 point to assume that there is going to be a 2 recurrence, particularly with some of the minor 3 offenses. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 5 recognizes Senator Waldon. 6 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 7 much, Mr. President. 8 Would the learned Senator, the 9 sponsor of this bill, yield to a question or 10 two. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Nozzolio, do you yield? 13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'll be happy 14 to yield to Senator Waldon. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 yields. 17 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 18 much, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator 19 Nozzolio. 20 Senator, I am a little bit 21 ignorant in regard to how parole officers are 22 actually chosen. I know, for example, that 23 police officers are on a list, and the one in 2310 1 three rule applies to police officers. Is there 2 -- is there something going on in the gallery 3 that I should be aware of? 4 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Just looking 5 for heavenly inspiration in answer to your 6 question, Senator. 7 SENATOR WALDON: I hope it's 8 there, Senator. 9 But, seriously, is there a list 10 established for parole officers and, if so, does 11 the one in three rule apply? 12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I believe 13 there is, Senator, a list. I believe it's 14 extremely competitive. I believe it's much like 15 the same type of procedures. I am not positive, 16 but I believe it's the same type of Civil 17 Service procedures required for the selection of 18 regular police officers. 19 SENATOR WALDON: If I may 20 continue, Mr. President? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Nozzolio, do you continue to yield? 23 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr. 2311 1 President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 continues to yield. 4 SENATOR WALDON: If such is the 5 case, Senator, is not this proposal redundant? 6 Because if, at the discretion of the hiring 7 agency, they already have the right to weed out 8 those who are unsuitable utilizing the one in 9 three rule, then this becomes unnecessary in a 10 theoretical sense; is that not correct? 11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: In a practical 12 sense, Senator, in response to your question, 13 present law, present regulations do not 14 automatically bar felons, and I believe that's 15 part -- that's the sole reason for putting this 16 measure before us today, that there is this 17 loophole in the law, and we're trying to close 18 that loophole. 19 SENATOR WALDON: If I may 20 continue, Mr. President? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Nozzolio, do you continue to yield? 23 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr. 2312 1 President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 continues to yield. 4 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, I have 5 no problems with the felony phase of your 6 proposal. I think in the manner of its 7 construction, there is a redundancy if the one 8 in three Civil Service rule applies. There is 9 no need to be concerned about those who have 10 committed felonies who apply, or even those who 11 have committed misdemeanors of such a nature 12 that the hiring agency feels, upon 13 investigation, that they are unsuitable. 14 So my real question is, if such 15 is the case, are we not kind of spinning our 16 wheels on something that is unnecessary to do 17 because the Commissioner already has the 18 discretion to not hire those who fall under the 19 per numeral zone of the one in three rule of the 20 Civil Service Law. 21 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President, 22 in response to Senator Waldon's question. 23 Senator, no, I do not believe it 2313 1 is redundant. I believe that this is a clear 2 statement of policy by this Legislature stating 3 specifically that those who commit a felony and 4 those who commit an egregious misdemeanor will 5 not be considered or allowed to be in this very 6 important law enforcement capacity. 7 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 8 with your permission, may I continue? Will the 9 Senator continue to yield? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Nozzolio, do you continue to yield? 12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr. 13 President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 continues to yield. 16 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, you 17 said earlier the same rules may -- you weren't 18 sure, and I appreciate that. I appreciate your 19 candor. The same rules may apply regarding 20 applicants to become parole officers as apply to 21 those who wish to become police officers. In 22 that regard, when you are asked a question 23 during the investigation process, "Have you ever 2314 1 been convicted of a crime?" failure to honestly 2 answer the question automatically, upon 3 discovery, bars you from becoming a member of 4 the police departments across this state. 5 Would that in regard to parole 6 officers apply? And if it does, would those who 7 while teenagers, while juveniles, in fact, who 8 have committed acts which if committed by an 9 adult would be characterized as felonies, be 10 barred from becoming parole officers? 11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, in 12 response to what I believe are two questions, 13 three questions -- first, you are asking me 14 whether or not an individual who lies upon 15 applying for a -- for this parole officer 16 position, would that individual -- if lying upon 17 their application, would that lying disqualify 18 them? Is that the question you are asking me, 19 sir? 20 SENATOR WALDON: Part of it, yes. 21 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I would 22 believe, yes, a lie to me would certainly 23 disqualify an individual testing. A fraud 2315 1 committed upon -- by the applicant would be, in 2 effect, an issue that would disqualify them. 3 However, sir, if the question was, "Have you 4 ever been convicted of a felony?" and they 5 answered yes, the law would not -- as it's 6 written today, would not disqualify them from 7 service as a parole officer; and, Senator, 8 that's exactly why we're trying to change the 9 law with this proposal. 10 SENATOR WALDON: Would the kind 11 Senator just suffer an interruption? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Nozzolio, would you suffer an interruption by 14 Senator Waldon? 15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: It would be 16 not a question of suffering, sir. I would be 17 glad to. 18 SENATOR WALDON: I may not have 19 been clear in my statement, Senator, and I 20 apologize for that. I was talking about those 21 who are classified YOs and juvenile offenders 22 and, in theory, if you are asked a question, 23 "Have you ever been convicted of a felony?" 2316 1 but, in fact, on your record shows juvenile 2 delinquency and YO offender status and you say 3 "No," in truth you would not traditionally be 4 characterized as a felon; however, for purposes 5 of such a serious position as a parole officer, 6 it seems to me that acts committed even at that 7 tender age might cause someone to be concerned. 8 The point I'm trying to make is, 9 if the Director and/or the Commissioner, 10 whatever his title may be at this point in time, 11 has the discretion to eliminate those whose 12 records show they are not qualified to become 13 parole officers, I think this is somewhat of an 14 exercise in futility and we're really just 15 wasting the State's time and the State's money 16 in going through this process. 17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, I 18 believe that we're clearly headed -- in response 19 to your question, we're clearly headed here in a 20 loophole, a loophole in the law that recognizes 21 the good work of parole officers, recognizes 22 that they are in the front lines of law 23 enforcement, but we did not ensure that someone 2317 1 convicted of a felony wouldn't be able to 2 participate in this career. This closes -- the 3 bill before us today simply closes that loophole 4 and ensures that anyone convicted as a felon 5 need not apply as a parole officer. 6 That's all we're trying to do 7 here. There's no -- what you see is what you 8 get here. It is simply denying anyone who's 9 committed a felony the opportunity to be a 10 parole officer. 11 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 12 on the bill. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Waldon, on the bill. 15 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 16 much, Mr. President. 17 Let me thank Senator Nozzolio for 18 his candor and for his patience in responding to 19 my questions. 20 But I am in agreement with 21 Senator Paterson, the learned Senator from that 22 great city of Harlem, in regard to the thrust 23 vis-a-vis misdemeanors. 2318 1 I believe that if the 2 Commissioner/Director of this agency has 3 discretion to weed out those who do not qualify 4 under their rules, under the rules of the parole 5 commission, as capable of becoming parole 6 officers, then this is, in fact, a redundancy. 7 I have no problem with excluding 8 felons, especially those who commit, as Senator 9 Nozzolio said, "egregious acts." I would 10 characterize egregious and heinous, even those 11 which do not reflect moral turpitude. 12 I also believe, as Senator 13 Paterson characterized, if someone at a tender 14 age has committed a misdemeanor, that should not 15 necessarily hang over their heads ad infinitum 16 and preclude them from having an opportunity for 17 service to the people of the State of New York, 18 especially if it is, as some young people get 19 involved with situations where the officer says, 20 "Okay, fellows, let's move along," and 21 rightfully so, the officer has the right under 22 certain circumstances to do that. There is some 23 resistance. Someone gets a little gungee. Next 2319 1 thing you know, he has an arrest. He is charged 2 with resisting arrest, which may have been just 3 an ill-thought act of the moment, and nothing 4 else happens in that person's life forever. We 5 should not preclude them, in my opinion, from 6 serving as parole officers. 7 In fact, the experience there 8 might assist them in becoming a better parole 9 officer; and in that regard and for those 10 reasons, I will have to vote no on this 11 particular proposal. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 13 any other Senator wishing to speak on this 14 bill? 15 (There was no response.) 16 If not, the Secretary will read 17 the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect on the 30th day. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2320 1 Montgomery, did you wish to explain your vote? 2 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, I do. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Montgomery to explain her vote. 5 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr. 6 President. I have been listening to the debate 7 on this bill, and as I have -- the position that 8 I have taken in the past, I maintain in 9 relationship to this legislation, and that is 10 that it's very broad and it sweeps into its net 11 a whole group of people who are probably the 12 most likely people to be excellent parole 13 officers because they may have a unique 14 understanding of people who have been through a 15 system, and so I think that this is a mistake. 16 We certainly don't want to put in 17 jeopardy any person because a person who is 18 employed to deal with them may be -- pose a 19 danger, but, by the same token, I think we also 20 don't want to exclude a whole group of people 21 who may, in fact, be a particular asset, 22 especially as it relates to working with people 23 who have been involved in the criminal justice 2321 1 system. 2 So I'm voting against this bill, 3 and I hope that my colleagues will join me in 4 opposing legislation which limits to such an 5 extent people who will not be a danger but who, 6 rather, would be an asset to serve in such 7 positions. 8 I vote no, Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Montgomery will be recorded in the negative. 11 Announce the results. 12 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 13 the negative on Calendar Number 398 are Senators 14 Montgomery, Paterson and Waldon. Ayes 54. 15 Nays 3. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 Chair recognizes Senator Skelos. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 20 if we could return to reports of standing 21 committees. I believe there is a report of the 22 Finance Committee at the desk. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We will 2322 1 return to reports of standing committees. I 2 will ask the Secretary to read. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 4 from the Committee on Finance, offers up the 5 following nominations: 6 Member of the State Council on 7 the Arts, Earle Mack of New York City. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 9 recognizes Senator Stafford. 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: It's a 11 pleasure, Mr. President, to move the 12 confirmation of Mr. Mack, who has a 13 distinguished career in government and the 14 public sector and who has a proven interest in 15 the field to which he is being nominated. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 question is on the nomination of Earle Mack of 18 New York City to become a Member of the State 19 Council on the Arts. 20 All in favor, signify by saying 21 aye. 22 (Response of "Aye.") 23 Opposed, nay. 2323 1 (There was no response.) 2 The nominee is confirmed. 3 The Secretary will continue to 4 read. 5 THE SECRETARY: Member of the 6 Advisory Council on Agriculture, Edwin D. 7 Fessenden of King Ferry. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 9 recognizes Senator Stafford. 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President, 11 again it's a pleasure to move the confirmation 12 of Mr. Fessenden to a very important Council, 13 the Advisory Council on Agriculture. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 15 recognizes Senator Hoffmann. 16 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I must rise in 17 support of this particular nominee. As the 18 ranking Minority member on the Senate 19 Agriculture Committee, I have had the great 20 pleasure of working with Mr. Fessenden over a 21 number of years. We served together on the 22 Cornell Ag' and Life Sciences Advisory Board and 23 I have observed Mr. Fessenden in an advocacy 2324 1 role on many, many issues that affect New York 2 State's number one industry. Notwithstanding 3 the fact that his son is a member of the other 4 house, I think it was a remarkable sign of good 5 judgment on the part of Governor Pataki to 6 appoint Mr. Fessenden, who is a Democrat, to 7 another term on this particular board. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 9 recognizes Senator Nozzolio. 10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. 12 My colleagues, it is with great 13 happiness that I rise in support of this 14 excellent nomination. Ed Fessenden is a working 15 farmer, one who has been skilled in agriculture 16 and is one who has passed that skill along to 17 his family. His sons are operating his 18 agricultural operation with him, and I'm very 19 pleased as a constituent, as his son Dan is our 20 colleague in servicing the legislative needs, 21 the state legislative needs of Cayuga County. I 22 think this is a terrific nomination, and I rise 23 in support of Ed Fessenden. 2325 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 2 any other Senator wishing to speak on the 3 nomination? 4 (There was no response.) 5 Hearing none, the question is on 6 the nomination of Edwin D. Fessenden of King 7 Ferry, to become a member of the Advisory 8 Council on Agriculture. 9 All those in favor of the 10 nomination, signify by saying aye. 11 (Response of "Aye.") 12 Opposed, nay. 13 (There was no response.) 14 The nominee is confirmed. 15 Secretary will continue to read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Member of the 17 Stewart Airport Commission, Robert J. Zaccheo of 18 New Paltz. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 20 recognizes Senator Cook. 21 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 22 I'm very pleased to second this nomination of 23 Bob Zaccheo to the Stewart Airport Commission, 2326 1 on two grounds: The first that he is a building 2 contractor and given the fact that they are in 3 the process of, hopefully, major expansion in 4 the future at Stewart, certainly his knowledge 5 will be helpful in that regard; secondly, 6 because he is an elected town board member and a 7 former planning board chairman in the town of 8 Gardiner, which is one of the towns in the 9 hinterlands of the airport and where people are 10 going to be concerned, of course, about approach 11 routes and that type of thing. I think he adds 12 a good balance. 13 So I think he is a very ideal 14 appointment to this board and I am very pleased 15 to second his nomination. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Any other 17 Senator wishing to speak on the nomination? 18 (There was no response.) 19 Hearing none, the question is on 20 the nomination of Robert J. Zaccheo of New 21 Paltz, to become a member of the Stewart Airport 22 Commission. 23 All those in favor, signify by 2327 1 saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye.") 3 Opposed, nay. 4 (There was no response.) 5 The nominee is confirmed. 6 Secretary will continue to read. 7 THE SECRETARY: Member, Board of 8 Visitors, New York State Home for Veterans and 9 Their Dependents at Batavia, Linda M. Janelli of 10 Amherst. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 12 recognizes Senator Rath. 13 SENATOR RATH: Mr. President, I 14 am pleased to rise and support the nomination of 15 Linda M. Janelli of Amherst for a term to expire 16 in February of the year 2000 -- that almost 17 comes as a shock to say that. The New York 18 State Home for Veterans in Batavia supports and 19 receives veterans from all over the state but, 20 of course, mainly Western New York, which is 21 home to us and home to Linda. Linda is a 22 registered nurse. She is a veteran also of the 23 Operation Desert Shield and is in the U.S. Air 2328 1 Force Reserves. 2 She comes with a wonderful 3 resume, and her background, her professional 4 background, is in gerontological activities so 5 she has actually three things in her favor very 6 much so, a registered nurse, of course, for a 7 senior nursing home, experience with working 8 with seniors; and also is in the Air Force 9 Reserves. So I'm pleased to second the 10 nomination. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 12 any other Senator wishing to speak on the 13 nomination? 14 (There was no response.) 15 Hearing none, the question is on 16 the nomination of Linda M. Janelli of Amherst to 17 become a member of the Board of Visitors, New 18 York State Home for Veterans and Their 19 Dependents at Batavia. 20 All those in favor of the 21 nomination, signify by saying aye. 22 (Response of "Aye.") 23 Opposed, nay. 2329 1 (There was no response.) 2 The nominee is confirmed. 3 Secretary will continue to read. 4 THE SECRETARY: Member, Board of 5 Visitors, New York State Home for Veterans and 6 Their Dependents at St. Albans, Donald H. Haber 7 of Douglaston. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: I move the 9 nomination. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 question is on the nomination of Donald H. Haber 12 of Douglaston to become a Member of the Board of 13 Visitors of the New York State Home for Veterans 14 and Their Dependents at St. Albans. 15 All those in favor of the 16 nomination, signify by saying aye. 17 (Response of "Aye.") 18 Opposed, nay. 19 (There was no response.) 20 The nominee is confirmed. 21 Senator Skelos. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Stand at ease 23 for a moment. 2330 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Senate will stand at ease for a moment. 3 Senator Skelos. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 5 at this time if you would take up Calendar 182, 6 Senate 5395A, by Senator Guy Velella. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read Calendar Number 182. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 182, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 5395A, an 11 act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation 12 to the testing of pregnant women for the human 13 virus HIV. 14 SENATOR VELELLA: Last section, 15 please. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Velella, an explanation of Calendar Number 182 18 has been asked for by the Acting Minority 19 Leader, Senator Paterson. 20 SENATOR VELELLA: This is a bill 21 that we passed last year and, basically, has not 22 been changed at all. It requires that pregnant 23 women receive HIV counseling and that they be 2331 1 made aware of the necessity for HIV testing for 2 their children. It requires that the refusal of 3 an HIV test shall be in writing. Requires that 4 when a pregnant woman refuses an HIV test a good 5 effort shall be made to repeat the counseling 6 and offer the testing at subsequent prenatal 7 visits. Requires HIV-related services be 8 offered within a reasonable period of time from 9 receipt of test results to a pregnant woman who 10 tests HIV positive, and it unblinds the test 11 that is now presently given for children so that 12 the mother will be informed of the status of the 13 child. 14 I think everybody in the chamber 15 has gone through a rather lengthy debate in the 16 past for several hours, and I would suggest that 17 we incorporate the past debate by reference. 18 (Laughter.) 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 20 recognizes Senator Paterson. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 22 President. Did Senator Velella have me in mind 23 when he made that - 2332 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Velella, do you yield to a question? 3 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 5 Velella, what if I confine my questions to 6 information that exists between last year and 7 this year? 8 SENATOR VELELLA: That's fine 9 with me. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Paterson. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: In October of 13 last year, Mr. President, there was a settlement 14 between the Association for the Benefit of 15 Children and the New York State Department of 16 Health in which the Governor's office and the 17 Attorney General's office joined in the 18 settlement and in the negotiation. 19 What the results of that are is 20 there will be some new regulations that have 21 been promulgated and will be coming into effect 22 later this spring. In my opinion, it 23 incorporates a lot of what is in Senator 2333 1 Velella's legislation, carried by Assemblywoman 2 Mayersohn in the Assembly, for which they've 3 both worked very hard, very diligently and very 4 dedicated to try to accomplish what would be a 5 great good for society. 6 As a result of the regulations, 7 though, the only testing results that would not 8 be provided to the mother would be where the 9 mother actually refuses the offer of the results 10 of the newborn testing which actually tests the 11 mother's antibodies and adds to the list of 12 diseases that would be tested, AIDS, the 13 antibodies to the HIV virus. 14 So my question, Senator Velella, 15 is, that with that in mind -- and the only 16 refusal would be one in which there is an offer 17 and then a refusal as would similarly be the 18 case if a Christian Scientist didn't want 19 treatment. 20 My question is, do you think this 21 bill still has value in light of the fact that 22 we have regulations going into effect that 23 accomplish almost the same purpose later this 2334 1 spring? 2 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, Senator, 3 the answer to that is no, and I will explain it 4 briefly. 5 When the Governor held a press 6 conference along with Assemblywoman Mayersohn, 7 myself, the people who had brought the lawsuit, 8 many of the advocates for young children, he 9 made mention, and the health commissioner also 10 mentioned the fact that these regulations would 11 be a first step, that they would be part of a 12 solution, but that he was going to the limit 13 that the existing law would provide. 14 Our bill takes him beyond that 15 point. The regulations will deal with -- the 16 biggest difference being -- outside of 17 encouraging counseling, forcing additional 18 opportunities for a parent or a mother to have 19 counseling during the prenatal time. The 20 biggest difference in the regs are, that where 21 the parent takes no action, where the doctor 22 says, "We recommend you have a test, we 23 recommend that your newborn be tested," and the 2335 1 parent doesn't reject or doesn't affirm whether 2 or not a test should be taken, the regulations 3 will give the doctor the authority to act, if he 4 believes that that is a high-risk child and an 5 emergency situation exists for the health and 6 well-being of that child, to have the child 7 tested for AIDS and to then take appropriate 8 medical action. 9 Again, I will point out as I did 10 to you last year, we are treating this disease 11 of AIDS as a special type of problem. We've had 12 these types of problem of communicable diseases 13 before, and we've always addressed them in the 14 law. AIDS is the only politically-protected 15 disease known to man. We should treat it as a 16 contagious disease. We should try to identify 17 it wherever it exists, as any other malady known 18 to man, any other problem, medical problem. 19 Any doctor will tell you, you 20 can't begin to solve the problem until you find 21 you have the disease. We're saying we're not 22 even going to let people find out they have the 23 disease. That is incredible, and that is 2336 1 because we have disguised this thing with so 2 much confidentiality that we are depriving 3 newborn babies of being diagnosed with a disease 4 that cannot be cured at this point, but they can 5 be helped to live longer so that probably or 6 hopefully we will find a cure during their 7 lifetime rather than damning them to a slow and 8 painful death because we refused to diagnose a 9 disease that it was our ability to do. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Paterson. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 13 if Senator Velella would continue to yield? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Velella, do you continue to yield? 16 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 continues to yield. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, as I 20 understand it, the regulations do provide us 21 with a method of understanding whether or not 22 the newborn has the disease or at least it does 23 provide us with an opportunity to test to 2337 1 determine whether or not the mother has 2 antibodies for the disease, and then we can make 3 a decision as to what to do with the newborn, 4 since 75 percent of the newborns actually do not 5 go on to actually manifest the virus, and this 6 can be very helpful particularly in the 7 treatment of early pneumonia, which is one of 8 the virulent killers of young children, with 9 Pentamadine and other types of drugs. 10 So I understand that; but with 11 the regulations already providing that, what is 12 added to the regulations that is accomplished in 13 your legislation is simply the fact that now 14 we've made an offer to the mother of the 15 findings of this test that we're going to 16 perform and the mother now refuses, does not 17 want to know the results and is, in a sense, 18 refusing the treatment. 19 If what we really are looking for 20 is the cooperation of the mother, would it not 21 be better to go back to the mother and say, 22 "Well, these are the reasons why we think 23 treatment can be helpful; we don't have a cure 2338 1 but we can elongate the life of the newborn"? 2 In other words, consistent counseling and 3 continuing to try to convince the individual 4 that this would be a better way, because we're 5 going to need the mother in the administration 6 of the treatment; and so I'm just saying that is 7 a mandatory piece of legislation or mandatory 8 procedure that is going to be existing when we 9 -- if we put this legislation into law that now 10 tells the mother, "Well, you didn't want to 11 know, but here are the results," is that going 12 to help us in terms of establishing a treatment 13 any more than it would be to say, "You really 14 need to know this, Mother of the Newborn, 15 because caring about your baby, as we're sure 16 you do, this is the best way that you can help 17 your child"? 18 All I'm saying -- all I'm asking, 19 Senator Velella, is how does the mandatory 20 nature of informing, how does that assist us in 21 the treatment? 22 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, one of 23 the first things that comes to mind when you ask 2339 1 that is probably that mother is in a stage of 2 denial and hitting her with the cold facts might 3 wake her up a little bit to tell her that she 4 and her child are in need of serious medical 5 attention. 6 As I said before, the only way a 7 doctor can deal with any medical problem is to 8 first determine what it is you have. Not 9 knowing what you have and blinding yourself to 10 that and ignoring the case is just pure lunacy. 11 Secondly, what can be done if we 12 identify this child after birth if the mother 13 does not want to be informed? At least we would 14 know when we do inoculations that we ought not 15 be shooting live polio vaccines into a child who 16 falls into that 25 percent category who didn't 17 shed the antibodies but developed the full-blown 18 AIDS, and maybe we should be start -- we will be 19 able to start the pneumonia treatments to build 20 up the resistance to the very, very fatal 21 pneumonias that these children develop. 22 Those are some of the medical 23 things. I'm not a doctor but those are some of 2340 1 the things that doctors have told me they will 2 do when they know a child is vulnerable to this 3 disease or has developed this disease, to make 4 their life a little bit better. 5 I find it shocking that you would 6 say to me that out of the 100 percent universe 7 of children whose mothers have the HIV antibody 8 and are born with it, 75 percent shed the 9 antibody and will be normal and only 25 percent 10 of them are going to die, so we shouldn't help 11 them; 25 percent of them are expendable. 12 I think one life is not 13 expendable, and I think that's a very callous 14 attitude. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Paterson. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I 18 would be shocked if someone said that, as well, 19 but that's not what I said. I said that 75 20 percent of the newborns test positive as a 21 result of the tests of the mother's antibodies. 22 The test of the mother's antibodies does not 23 determine whether or not the newborn goes on to 2341 1 have the infection. In the cases of 25 percent 2 that do, to whatever extent we can prolong their 3 lives -- and you were quite accurate and quite 4 careful not to advertise some of the treatments 5 as a cure -- in the cases of those 25 percent, 6 we certainly think that there certainly should 7 be treatment. 8 In the case of women when they 9 are pregnant, we can, actually, through the use 10 of AZT and other drugs reduce even that 25 11 percent to 8 percent. In fact, when the mother 12 is pregnant that is the one time we actually 13 know we have a chance to eliminate the virus 14 entirely through the treatment of AZT. We don't 15 use the AZT any more in the treatment of 16 newborns because it is such a dangerous 17 treatment inherently that, in many cases, it 18 exacerbates the cases and in many cases, it 19 treats the 75 percent who aren't actually going 20 to get the virus and, in some cases, that 21 treatment has actually led to grave problems for 22 the newborn. 23 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator 2342 1 Paterson yield for a moment? 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 3 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, when 4 you talk about that 25 percent or if -- and we 5 provide for more than adequate counseling in 6 this bill in the prenatal term. If we got the 7 prenatal counseling and they took it and there 8 was only 8 percent, how are we going to identify 9 that 25 percent or that 8 percent if, in fact, 10 we don't take those tests and look at the 11 results because the mother may decide she 12 doesn't want to know about it? 13 We have an obligation to those 14 born children. We're not talking about before 15 they're born. We're talking about babies that 16 have been born into this world, and we have an 17 obligation to that 25 percent or that 8 percent 18 to treat them for what they have, and we can't 19 treat them unless we test them to find out what 20 they have. If there was a way to do it, fine. 21 We have to compromise or bend a little bit that 22 rule of confidentiality to save those 25 percent 23 of the babies. 2343 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, thank 2 you, Senator. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Paterson. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: I think we 6 should certainly take any measure that would 7 assist the newborns in fighting the virus, so I 8 agree with you, and I think that the new 9 regulations that are going into effect -- if I'm 10 wrong, please correct me -- are going to 11 accomplish exactly what you are talking about 12 because we are going to have the tests. 13 SENATOR VELELLA: You're wrong. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm wrong. 15 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. You asked 16 me to correct you. You're wrong. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Velella, you have shaken me up, too. Would you 19 go through the chair when you do this. 20 SENATOR VELELLA: Will Senator 21 Paterson yield for a moment? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Paterson, Senator Velella is asking if you would 2344 1 yield for a moment? 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 3 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, you 4 are wrong. Regulations will not accomplish 5 that. You asked me to correct you. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: I was hoping 7 you would tell me. The regulations will provide 8 for the -- there will be the testing. The only 9 thing that the regulations are not going to 10 provide for will be the notification of the 11 mother and, if the mother refuses the test, then 12 what I'm saying to you is but the health care 13 providers still know what the results of those 14 tests are. 15 The difference is that we are 16 trying to inform the mother and the mother is 17 refusing, if I'm not correct. That's -- what 18 you are adding to the regulations that are going 19 into effect -- and this is just a point of fact 20 right now -- is that we're now going to inform 21 the parent and all I'm saying, Senator, is in 22 terms of the treatment we're going to need the 23 mother. We're going to need the mother to 2345 1 establish the treatment. 2 So if the mother says no, she 3 doesn't want to be informed and we say to her, 4 "Well, we're going to shock you into reality; 5 we're going to tell you what the results of the 6 test are," I don't know that that's a better way 7 than continuing to insist through counseling 8 that the mother get treatment, because what 9 we're trying to accomplish is not just to give 10 her the information. This isn't a question of 11 confidentiality. This is a question of health 12 care. What we're trying to accomplish is to get 13 the mother to get on our side and assist with 14 the treatment. 15 SENATOR VELELLA: If I might 16 respond to that, Senator. I think I finally 17 isolated the point of difference that we have 18 and it may be a misunderstanding of what the 19 bill is doing. 20 When that mother says, "No, I 21 don't want my baby tested; I don't want to know 22 anything about this; I want to have my baby and 23 go home and live in my own little world, and I 2346 1 don't want to know anything about AIDS; I'm not 2 worried about it," we are testing that baby 3 anyway under existing law. Every baby is 4 tested, so we have results. We just are 5 stupid. We don't tell anybody about it. 6 What I've suggested we do is, 7 "Why don't we tell the mother?" Not the world, 8 the mother. And, two, that when those results 9 are noted on the baby's record, doctors who will 10 be treating that baby will know this baby has 11 the potential for AIDS or has the full-blown 12 AIDS and will treat them accordingly, will not 13 give them high doses of -- will not give them 14 inoculations that have live polio vaccines in - 15 live organisms in them, to build up their immune 16 system because they have a defective immune 17 system. The mother may not reintroduce the 18 virus by breast feeding. 19 Those are the things that are 20 going to be constructively done. When we take 21 that test and unblind the results, we let doctor 22 and we let the mother know. That's what I think 23 we're going to accomplish. The regs don't do 2347 1 that. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Paterson. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Let me ask 5 you, Senator Velella, your interpretation of my 6 understanding of what the bill does. My 7 understanding is that we are going to inform all 8 mothers at this point with the exception of 9 those mothers who specifically indicate that 10 they are refusing to get the results under the 11 regulations that are going to go into effect 12 soon. 13 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, under the 14 regulations that would be the state that we 15 would be in. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Okay. Now 17 that we agree on that, we are now only talking 18 about individuals who have made it clear that 19 they are refusing to get the results of the 20 test; and so, what your legislation -- and what 21 I'm suggesting to you where they differ is, 22 you're saying the best way to get the mother's 23 cooperation, as you put it, was to try to shock 2348 1 her into reality. And I'm not raising this to 2 be critical of what you're saying. Anything 3 that would get the mother to cooperate would be 4 helpful. But what I'm saying is that since we 5 already know that the mother has offered this 6 refusal, I think we've got to change the 7 mother's mind. 8 We're not going to change her 9 mind just by giving her the results because she 10 took that into account when she refused to get 11 the results. 12 What I'm saying is we have to 13 demonstrate to her some of the research that you 14 and others who worked on this legislation have 15 engaged in, to talk about the early treatment of 16 pneumonia, to talk about the way in which we 17 have taken the more virulent forms of the virus 18 and actually extended the lives for years of the 19 younger people, to let them know that we can 20 often eliminate PCP pneumonia in the first 21 months, and I think it would be that way rather 22 than just saying, "Well, now, you didn't want to 23 know, but we're telling you, you got a real 2349 1 problem and even though you refused to get the 2 results, we are now going to inform you anyway." 3 That's where I think we disagree. 4 SENATOR VELELLA: That's the 5 beauty of my bill. We both agree and the bill 6 covers that. We provide for this extensive 7 counseling, and I agree with you we have to try 8 to get the mother, and we provide for 9 counseling. 10 But a lot of cases -- a lot, not 11 the majority but a lot of women who have no 12 prenatal care, they show up at an emergency room 13 ready to deliver. We haven't had time to 14 counsel and discuss the problems with them. 15 They have to have an immediate reaction. That 16 child will need immediate treatment, in my mind, 17 for prevention of some of the complications of 18 the possibility of AIDS. 19 That is why we provide for the 20 counseling during prenatal and postpartum. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Point of 22 clarification, Senator. You are saying your 23 legislation provides for counseling if the 2350 1 mother refuses? Because I don't see it in here. 2 SENATOR VELELLA: Counseling is 3 available through all of the services that we - 4 not particularly in this bill, but are readily 5 available through all of the funding sources we 6 do, through the AIDS Institute, through the 7 hospital programs. It is there for anyone who 8 is shocked and finds out they have AIDS through 9 this process. There is all that backup that we 10 have and support that we fund through other 11 vehicles in this state for that parent, that 12 person, after the baby is born. 13 The prenatal counseling is really 14 the key that you put your finger on to educate 15 the mother as to the problems the child may 16 have, the need for this test. That's all 17 there. We have repeated attempts even after the 18 mother has refused in the prenatal stage -- if 19 the mother has refused to have the test -- for 20 the doctor to go back and try to explain to her 21 the need for this test. 22 We tried to build in as much 23 counseling as is humanly possible in the 2351 1 prenatal stage, but you ought to be aware that 2 there are a lot of women that have no prenatal 3 treatment. They show up at the hospital 4 pregnant, have their baby and we are left with 5 the situation where failure to diagnose the 6 antibodies and possible development of full 7 blown AIDS prejudices that child's ability to 8 struggle through life and maybe survive for a 9 longer period of time until there is a cure. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 11 much, Senator Velella. 12 Mr. President, on the bill. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Paterson, on the bill. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: The American 16 College of Gynecologists and Obstetricians 17 opposes this legislation. They don't feel that 18 this is the way to try to encourage the mother's 19 cooperation after the test of newborns has been 20 performed. They feel, as I do, that the 21 continued counseling -- which I don't see in 22 this bill, but Senator Velella assures me does 23 exist in other ways -- is the best way to 2352 1 encourage the mother that there needs to be a 2 finding and then there needs to be treatment if 3 in the tragic event the baby tests that the 4 mother has antibodies to the HIV virus. 5 In addition, we're spending $3.8 6 million from the bad debt and charity pool, a 7 pool that is certainly under duress when we 8 realize that we have not in any way addressed 9 the New York Prospective Hospital Reimbursement 10 Methodology; and so, for this amount of money to 11 be expended just really on the issue of 12 informing the parent as to the nature of a 13 circumstance that will inevitably only affect 25 14 percent of the newborns, when there even is a 15 positive test, it certainly can be suggested 16 that there would be better ways to use the money 17 to treat the virus, not to accomplish any 18 political goal, not in any way to eliminate from 19 the health care that these young newborns who 20 are unfortunately placed in this position need. 21 So what I'm suggesting, Mr. 22 President, is that the continued counseling 23 after the fact is the best way -- as I would 2353 1 defer to the medical professionals on this, that 2 is the most accomplished method to try to 3 encourage the mother to understand that there is 4 a very serious problem here and that although we 5 have not, unfortunately, come up with a cure for 6 the problem, we can at least do what we should 7 always be doing, fighting to extend life as long 8 as we can. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Volker, why do you rise? 11 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 12 can we read the last section? We have one 13 member who needs to be some place else and would 14 like to be able to vote. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Secretary will read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 18 act shall take effect on the first day of 19 January. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2354 1 Gonzalez. 2 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Gonzalez will be recorded in the affirmative. 5 The roll call is withdrawn. 6 Debate is continued. 7 Chair recognizes Senator Abate. 8 SENATOR ABATE: Mr. President. 9 Would Senator Velella yield? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Velella, do you yield to Senator Abate? 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 yields. 15 SENATOR ABATE: I will try to 16 reduce my questions only to new areas that have 17 developed since last year to this year. 18 One of the issues is that -- I'm 19 trying to understand the bill. Will all the 20 tests be unblinded? All the children that are 21 born will be tested and all those tests un 22 blinded even for the women of children who have 23 already been tested, who have consented to be 2355 1 tested and already know the results? These are 2 the 90 percent of the women who go through the 3 system, consent to be tested, know the results. 4 Will we also be unblinding those tests under 5 this bill? 6 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, we'd be 7 unblinding the tests that are given at birth to 8 each child that's -- when the child is born. 9 The prenatal tests would be shared with the 10 mother who obviously consented to the test. I 11 guess in a general -- the answer would be yes. 12 We're unblinding the test that's given to a baby 13 when it's born. 14 SENATOR ABATE: I guess -- this 15 is an example. I am a mother. I go through 16 prenatal care. Under the existing rules and 17 regulations, I am told I have a right to be 18 tested. I am counseled. I agree. I sign a 19 written agreement to be tested. 20 And now I give birth, and the 21 hospital then tests my child, unblinds the 22 tests, so not only do I know the results of the 23 test, now the hospital knows. 2356 1 I mean what public policy is 2 advanced by putting those women into the pool, 3 later on, when they already have the 4 information? 5 SENATOR VELELLA: In the sense 6 that you say the hospital knows, it would be 7 probably the same -- if you went to the same 8 hospital for the test you consented to, the 9 technicians who read the results and entered it 10 on your file would be the same technicians that 11 read the results of the baby that was born and 12 entered it on their file. 13 SENATOR ABATE: But in the first 14 instance under the prenatal care, the results 15 remain confidential. They are treated in a far 16 different way than the results after birth. 17 SENATOR VELELLA: I don't know 18 that they are. Are you sure that they are? 19 SENATOR ABATE: It's my 20 understanding. I believe that's the case. 21 SENATOR VELELLA: The 22 confidentiality would still apply to everything 23 equally, except for the fact that that one test 2357 1 that's taken at birth that nobody is supposed to 2 know about -- it's supposed to be an anonymous 3 test -- now will be attached to that baby. 4 SENATOR ABATE: But the 5 difference is - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Abate, are you asking Senator Velella to 8 continue to yield? 9 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. Thank you. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Velella, do you continue to yield? 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 13 SENATOR ABATE: Would you 14 continue to yield? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Velella continues to yield. 17 SENATOR ABATE: Maybe, correct me 18 if I'm wrong, Senator. Would you correct me, my 19 understanding, if I am a woman, seek prenatal 20 care, I agree to be tested. The results of that 21 test remains anonymous. It doesn't become part 22 of my medical file. Now, when I give birth, my 23 baby is tested. It's the same thing as testing 2358 1 me because the baby is carrying my antibodies, 2 but yet that information becomes part of the 3 medical record. It's no longer anonymous. 4 SENATOR VELELLA: Of the child. 5 Of the child. 6 SENATOR ABATE: Of the child. 7 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 8 SENATOR ABATE: But it's a 9 representation of my medical condition, so I 10 guess -- again, I ask, what public policy is 11 advanced for me? Like 90 percent of the 12 universe of women when they're counseled and 13 they're educated, they want to be tested and 14 they want the information. Why am I put 15 postnatally in this huge pool of people where 16 the test of my baby is unblinded? 17 SENATOR VELELLA: The best answer 18 that I can give to you is for the 8 to 25 19 percent of the children that are going to fall 20 through the safety net that we've tried to 21 build, this will catch them; and the public 22 policy will be that they will live longer, 23 better quality of life, and that they may have 2359 1 some day the opportunity to live a full life if 2 we make some advances. 3 When we first started talking 4 about this bill, treatment during pregnancy by 5 AZT was totally unknown. We have now gotten to 6 a point where that treatment can prevent 7 transmission to the fetus. That is a major step 8 forward. I don't know next year, if the 9 Assembly fails to pass this again, what new 10 technology, what new advances, will happen when 11 we debate this next year when they fail to pass 12 it. 13 But I hope that at some point we 14 will be able to catch those 20, 25, 8 - 15 whatever the number is -- percent of children 16 that are being born, have this dreaded disease, 17 and nobody is telling anybody that there is a 18 way to make their life more comfortable and 19 maybe give them life for a longer period of time 20 and save their life. 21 SENATOR ABATE: Would Senator 22 Velella yield to another question? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2360 1 Velella, do you continue to yield? 2 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 continues to yield. 5 SENATOR ABATE: You raised the 6 issue -- to respond to what you said -- that if 7 we can give information to the mother post 8 birth, we may be able to help a child. But the 9 medical information is, if you don't catch it, 10 if you don't do something medically post-birth 11 within the first three to six weeks, that's the 12 critical time period. In fact, my understanding 13 is when some women breast-feed it's -- the 14 dangerous period of time is maybe in the first 15 week. 16 So my question is, Senator 17 Velella, when the baby is tested, how long does 18 it take for the hospital or the clinic to 19 receive the results of that test? 20 SENATOR VELELLA: The latest that 21 we have is approximately 12 days. 22 SENATOR ABATE: Okay. And then 23 on top of that there has to be some 2361 1 administrative -- the test is made. You have to 2 send it to the laboratory. So whether it's 3 two - 4 SENATOR VELELLA: You asked me 5 how long is it to get the results back? 6 SENATOR ABATE: Right. 7 SENATOR VELELLA: Our best 8 information is at the most 12 days. 9 SENATOR ABATE: And then would 10 you agree that there's a period of time to 11 locate the woman. A letter has to be written. 12 They may not have a phone. 13 SENATOR VELELLA: There may be, 14 there may not be. I don't know. It depends on 15 each case individually. Some people do enter a 16 hospital and put a name and address down with a 17 phone number that they can be reached at. Some 18 don't. 19 SENATOR ABATE: Right. But by 20 and large, I would say that the women we're 21 trying to reach may not even - 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are you 23 asking the Senator to continue to yield to a 2362 1 question? 2 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Okay. I 4 would just remind the participants to go through 5 the Chair so we can kind of keep some order 6 here. 7 SENATOR ABATE: Okay. Sorry, 8 Chair. I'm sorry if I have been disrespectful 9 to the Chair. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I 11 wouldn't consider it that way, Senator. You're 12 doing just fine. 13 Senator Velella, do you yield? 14 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, I yield. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Senator continues to yield. 17 SENATOR ABATE: So is it fair to 18 say it might take several weeks in order to get 19 the test results back, to communicate and track 20 down the woman and also to get her an 21 appointment and have her come to the hospital 22 because the goal of this bill is to get women 23 and their children into treatment. So is it 2363 1 fair to say when we go through that process, it 2 might be several weeks and it may be too late at 3 that point. The woman has already begun to 4 breast-feed and the danger has been done. Is 5 that fair to say? 6 SENATOR VELELLA: I can't 7 answer - 8 SENATOR ABATE: Is my analysis 9 accurate? 10 SENATOR VELELLA: I can't answer 11 it until you ask him to give me permission to 12 answer it. 13 SENATOR ABATE: On every 14 question? 15 SENATOR VELELLA: I guess so. I 16 don't know. I'm following the rules. 17 SENATOR ABATE: Well, follow the 18 rules today. 19 Mr. President - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, 21 Senator Abate. 22 SENATOR ABATE: -- would Senator 23 Velella yield to my last question? 2364 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Velella - 3 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, I will. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 5 Senator yields. 6 SENATOR VELELLA: If I can 7 remember it now that it's been so long since you 8 said it. The fact of the matter is, no, that 9 would not be the case that it takes several 10 weeks. It may be the case in some areas. The 11 issue is we are trying to catch as many people 12 as possible and in addition, maybe the most 13 critical treatment might be within that first 14 six weeks, eight weeks, ten weeks, twelve 15 weeks. There's a course of treatment for the 16 rest of this child's life that has been to be 17 given and special attention be paid to that 18 child and that, at least, will be identified as 19 "This child has this condition. We ought to 20 condition everything we do for this child 21 medically with the knowledge that this child has 22 a particular problem", and that will help them 23 in the long term. Yes, it's better if the next 2365 1 day we know what's going on, and if I could have 2 a bill, would you support it to say, "Let's let 3 the kid be tested immediately, give the results 4 and let's do it"? No, you wouldn't. You'd find 5 another excuse. 6 So what you're saying is, "We're 7 not going to catch everything we want to catch 8 so let's not catch anything. Let's catch what 9 we can." If it's twelve weeks, if it's ten 10 weeks, if it's five weeks, we're going to do 11 something that's going to help a lot of children 12 that would not be helped if we didn't unblind 13 this test, and that's what my goal is. Am I 14 going to catch everybody? No. But if you're 15 willing to support me, I would have a test and 16 treat it like we do every other thing. When a 17 mother goes in and she finds out she's pregnant 18 or she shows up at the emergency room, test her 19 for AIDS and if she's got it, treat her 20 accordingly and treat the baby accordingly like 21 we do for syphilis, like we do for all the other 22 diseases, like we do sickle cell anemia, like we 23 do for a battery of things that the law says we 2366 1 have to protect people from spreading to other 2 people and diagnose. We ought to treat AIDS the 3 same way. We shouldn't make special provisions 4 for AIDS. It's not a politically protected 5 disease unless you give it that protection. We 6 ought to protect the people of society from 7 letting it spread, and the way to do that is to 8 identify it as soon as possible and treat people 9 as soon as we identify it, but I can't 10 accomplish that because of the legislative 11 process. There are people who stand in the way 12 of it. So what I'm trying do is water it down a 13 little bit but help a lot of people in the same 14 instance. 15 SENATOR ABATE: I'll address 16 these issues when I speak on the bill but, Mr. 17 President, I have two additional questions, if 18 Senator Velella would yield. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Velella, do you continue to yield? 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 22 SENATOR ABATE: It looks as 23 though you need some exercise today, getting up 2367 1 and down. 2 SENATOR VELELLA: Am I getting 3 heavy? 4 SENATOR ABATE: Not yesterday, 5 just today. 6 The question is, my understanding 7 is that this program would be funded -- the $3.8 8 bill... million -- not billion, million dollars 9 needed to fund this program would come out of 10 the bad debt and charity pool and, Senator, what 11 impact -- again, that's contingent on NYPHRM 12 either being structured, extended -- the money 13 may not even be available this year if something 14 doesn't happen with NYPHRM, but let's say the 15 bad debt and charity pool is continued. What 16 impact would this funding -- taking about $3.8 17 million from bad debt and charity, what impact 18 would it have on the hospitals and on the 19 regional pools? 20 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, I think 21 it would have a fairly positive impact because I 22 think the earlier you diagnose and the earlier 23 you take and contain the problems, the less you 2368 1 spend in the long run. If these children are 2 not identified, they will develop the pneumonias 3 and the serious complications which cost far 4 more for a hospital to provide service for them 5 at the end of their illness during that 6 pneumonia period when they can't breathe, when 7 they need intensive attention, when they need 8 insensitive care units, special care units. It 9 would cost us a lot more. I think we're 10 investing money to catch the disease front end 11 rather than tail end, and every disease that I 12 know of and every person who's involved in the 13 medical business as it is today will tell you 14 that whether it's cancer, AIDS, common cold, the 15 earlier you diagnose and start treating, the 16 better off you are and the less expenses you 17 have down the road. 18 So I think it will have a 19 positive effect. 20 SENATOR ABATE: Unfortunately, 21 though, just to respond, you would probably 22 agree -- and I'll ask -- do you agree that 23 there's no disease quite like AIDS because 2369 1 there's not a cure and, yes, we can do certain 2 things to prolong people's lives and improve the 3 quality of their lives. At this point, there is 4 no cure for AIDS. 5 SENATOR VELELLA: I don't know if 6 there's a cure for cancer either but, yes, I 7 agree. There's no cure for AIDS, but people who 8 have cancer go through very expensive 9 treatments, chemotherapy, radiation therapy and 10 there is no known cure for cancer. You don't 11 take a shot and get, you know, cured of cancer. 12 Some work. Some don't work. So far we haven't 13 had anything that worked permanently on AIDS at 14 the terminal end, but we've seen some progress 15 in the prenatal care where AZT is given. So 16 hopefully we'll have something very soon. 17 SENATOR ABATE: My last question 18 -- Mr. President, would Senator Velella yield? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Velella, do you continue to yield? 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 Senator yields. 2370 1 SENATOR ABATE: There's a new 2 pro... I think it's a new provision or one that 3 I did not see last year, and maybe you can 4 explain the provision, that the Commissioner of 5 the Department of Social Services can order the 6 testing of all foster care children regardless 7 of the age. That means children that are two 8 years old, which is understandable, four and 9 five or six, but it also applies to adolescents, 10 the 17-year-old who is capable, if given 11 opportunity with informed consent, might agree 12 to be tested, have the option of anonymous 13 testing, and there are all kinds of 14 implications. 15 Now, I guess I ask you why wasn't 16 there a differentiation in the bill to allow 17 adolescent foster care children to have the 18 option of being voluntarily tested and engaging 19 in informed consent and then thereby being 20 protected through anonymous testing? 21 SENATOR VELELLA: That's not the 22 case. First, foster care was in there last year 23 and secondly, if you look at the bill, it says 2371 1 for foster children or individuals who lack the 2 capacity to consent. Someone 17, I think the 3 courts, in interpreting our intention in the 4 law, would say has or doesn't have the capacity 5 to consent, not the legal right, but the 6 capacity, mental capability. 7 SENATOR ABATE: But does this 8 legislation address adolescent foster care - 9 SENATOR VELELLA: Page - 10 SENATOR ABATE: -- and their 11 ability to give informed consent? 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Page 2, lines 13 46 and -7. 14 SENATOR ABATE: What is the 15 language you're referring to? 16 SENATOR VELELLA: "Lacks the 17 capacity to consent." 18 SENATOR ABATE: And you read that 19 that if an adolescent foster care child is 20 perceived to have capacity to consent, either 21 the maturity, the intellect, there would not be 22 forced testing of that individual without their 23 consent. 2372 1 SENATOR VELELLA: That's the way 2 I read it, and I believe that the court would 3 interpret it that way. We don't say "legal 4 capacity". 5 SENATOR ABATE: Thank you, 6 Senator. 7 SENATOR VELELLA: You're welcome. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Abate on the bill. 10 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, on the 11 bill. Last year, we had a very long debate and 12 the few of us that opposed this bill, I guess 13 created a complete misunderstanding of why we 14 take the position we take, because what is asked 15 of us -- and some of us are mothers and some of 16 us are care takers -- how could any responsible 17 individual be against this bill? I mean, the 18 same rationale, the proponents of the bill 19 saying it's -- why are you concerned about 20 confidentiality and why are you concerned of 21 protecting women who aren't concerned about 22 their children? 23 The issue at hand is that every 2373 1 one of us, supporters of this bill, as well as 2 opponents, care about children and care about 3 the mothers, and our ultimate goal shouldn't be 4 testing. Our ultimate goal is to get women and 5 children into treatment. Let's not mistake 6 anything when we say that testing is a health 7 program. Testing isn't a health program. 8 Testing does not necessarily bring people closer 9 to treatment. 10 So I think we're in one 11 agreement. I'm listening to the -- I'm 12 listening to the discourse behind me. It was 13 more fascinating than what I was - 14 SENATOR GOLD: Point of order, 15 Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Gold, why do you rise? 18 SENATOR GOLD: I just thought if 19 Senator Velella doesn't think it's serious 20 enough, maybe we should lay the bill aside. I 21 don't know. I think it's a serious debate among 22 people and I don't think that - 23 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, let's 2374 1 not play games on this bill. Now, if I happen 2 to be talking here with some of my colleagues on 3 your side of the aisle, that doesn't mean I 4 don't take this seriously, and I resent you 5 taking a cheap shot. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President - 7 SENATOR VELELLA: Why don't you 8 just sit down and let the debate go. I will be 9 back in a minute. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, it 11 wasn't a cheap shot. He walked in here with an 12 attitude today - 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Gentlemen 14 -- Gentlemen - 15 SENATOR GOLD: -- there was 16 legitimate questions being asked and a member on 17 this side asking questions - 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 19 Gentlemen. 20 SENATOR GOLD: -- doesn't need an 21 attitude from him. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Point of 23 order is now well taken, Senator Gold. 2375 1 Senator Abate, you have the 2 floor. 3 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Please 5 continue. 6 SENATOR ABATE: What I was saying 7 is that we all are concerned to do everything in 8 our capacity to prevent children from becoming 9 infected, to making sure that women get good, 10 safe health advice and also making sure that 11 women consent and actually are tested. I think 12 we agree on the goals. The problem is, I 13 personally disagree with the strategy on how to 14 get women and their children into the health 15 care system. 16 I think there's less of a 17 compelling reason this year to pass the 18 legislation than last year, and the reason I say 19 that is the Commissioner of Health has 20 promulgated a number of rules and regulations 21 that have not come into effect. They become 22 effective this spring. Those rules and 23 regulations set up mandatory counseling, set up 2376 1 the ability for voluntary testing. If a woman 2 refuses, it's a rigorous process. If a woman 3 refuses, they have to do so through writing. We 4 are now passing this legislation, I believe, 5 prematurely. We haven't even seen the effects 6 of this program to know if we're going to spend 7 our dollars wisely and if they're going to be 8 spent effectively. 9 We should let this program come 10 into effect, see if, in effect, that the 90 11 percent -- we're told that in other mandatory 12 counseling programs where there are voluntary 13 testing, 90 percent of the women want to know if 14 they're informed, but we don't even know the 15 results of this program because we are enacting 16 this legislation in haste. We should evaluate 17 this program and then there's a sense of 18 urgency. We did something last year. We all 19 decided there needed to be a mandatory 20 counseling bill that the Governor -- and to the 21 Governor's wisdom and the Department of Health's 22 wisdom, they are looking to promote mandatory 23 counseling. I think that's a wise approach. 2377 1 In terms of -- I am also 2 concerned that the bill will be targeting a few 3 women, and these are the few women who, because 4 they have been alienated from the health system, 5 they did not get prenatal care -- many of these 6 women have never seen a doctor, have never gone 7 to a dentist -- it is very unclear to me and all 8 of the professionals agree that that is not the 9 way to get these women into the health care 10 system. It will further alienate these women. 11 These are women who in the past have been told 12 that they have a right to be counseled and have 13 not gotten the adequate counseling. They have 14 never been in the health care system and now 15 we're saying that we're going to force them to 16 get the results and we think miraculously 17 they're going to enter the health care system. 18 Why then is the American College 19 of Obstetricians and Gynecologists opposed to 20 this bill? Why is the AMA opposed to the bill? 21 These are the frontline care providers who deal 22 with the women and the children every day. 23 They've dedicated their professional careers. 2378 1 Why are we second guessing their knowledge when 2 they say this is not an effective approach? 3 Again, I go back on strategy 4 because I'm concerned about the women and 5 children. I want to see them tested. I want to 6 see them get the results of the testing. I want 7 to get them in treatment. 8 Let me just quote from a 9 statement they made. "Coercive policies will 10 lead to misopportunities to get mothers and 11 infants into treatment quickly. As one of our 12 physicians put it: Trust, not coercion, is the 13 key to cooperation. The American College of 14 Obstetricians and Gynecologists continues to 15 support mandatory counseling and voluntary 16 testing for pregnant women. Our physicians 17 believe very strongly that voluntary testing 18 within the physician/patient relationship is the 19 most effective method of bringing women and, 20 therefore, their children into this treatment. 21 For all these reasons, we continue to oppose 22 this legislation." 23 So I think our priority should be 2379 1 how do we develop a relationship between the 2 women who are not currently in a health care 3 system -- certainly sending them a letter and 4 telling them about a test doesn't increase their 5 confidence in this alien system. How do we get 6 them into a nurturing, supportive health care 7 system so they will voluntarily be tested and 8 they will take responsibility for their 9 children? And my suggestion is - 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Abate. 12 SENATOR ABATE: -- the only 13 approach. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse me 15 a moment. 16 Senator Padavan, why do you 17 rise? 18 SENATOR PADAVAN: Would Senator 19 Abate yield to a question? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Abate, do you yield to a question? 22 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2380 1 Senator yields. 2 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, I have 3 listened very carefully to what you've said and 4 obviously you've done a great deal of reading, 5 and perhaps you can answer a question for me. 6 Many women that you describe, 7 describe well, coming into city hospitals in our 8 city with no relationship to a doctor or family 9 physician or pediatrician, and so on. Are they 10 capable of knowing a simple fact, namely that if 11 they carry the virus, that if they breast-feed 12 they will transmit that virus to the baby? Are 13 they capable of knowing that one fact, 14 irrespective of all the other things you said? 15 SENATOR ABATE: If that fact is 16 communicated in a way that it's non-threatening 17 and they understand it's in their best interest 18 and the child's interest, so it's the setting of 19 how that information is given -- I have some 20 experience with working with some of the women 21 through my experience; I talked about it last 22 year, not to belabor it -- through Rikers 23 Island. I was shocked that these were 2381 1 intelligent women that were afraid to see a 2 doctor. They were afraid to learn about what 3 getting cancer or a breast cancer test, because 4 they felt they were better off not knowing, and 5 they thought they would be stigmatized; they 6 would be kicked out of their houses. There's a 7 lot of, unfortunately, ignorance attached to the 8 health care system. 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, Senator, 10 perhaps I'm not phrasing my question properly. 11 My primary concern in this entire issue is the 12 baby, and what I don't understand from what 13 you've said, although you did acknowledge that 14 the mother, irrespective of all the other things 15 you spoke of, would have the capacity of knowing 16 that simple fact; you can transmit this virus to 17 your baby, therefore, do not breast-feed. 18 Without the mandatory provisions that this bill 19 provides, would not a certain percentage of 20 these women that you describe not be given that 21 basic fact on a mandatory basis? Would you 22 agree they would understand? 23 SENATOR ABATE: Well, the problem 2382 1 is they will see that information and they will 2 ignore it. I mean, that's -- I believe that's 3 the reality. I think what the approach should 4 be is figuring out in a public health way how do 5 we reach the women who, while all women have the 6 right to know now -- all women are told they can 7 be voluntarily tested, get the results and do 8 something to protect their children. We should 9 be developing a public health policy that goes 10 into the shelters, that goes into the social 11 service networks, that goes into where women are 12 now, the women that are alienated from the 13 health care system and find ways to bring them 14 into prenatal care, then we can do something 15 truly about preventing the transmission of the 16 disease. Post-natally, it's too late. What we 17 need to do is get women as early as possible, 18 get them educated in a way that they are open to 19 protecting themselves and their babies. 20 I agree, we need to do something 21 aggressively here, but I do not think this will 22 produce the results that everyone thinks it will 23 produce, and that's why in terms of public 2383 1 policy, I believe this is a bad approach. We 2 all agree that we need to do something to make 3 sure that children are protected. I do not 4 believe that testing is a public health 5 program. I still believe it's a charade. It 6 does not get women and children into treatment. 7 I think it'll force more of them out of the 8 public health system, and for the reasons that I 9 stated to Senator Velella last year, which are 10 on the record and I did not repeat this year, 11 and for some of the reasons I've articulated 12 this year, again, I oppose the bill. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 14 recognizes Senator Gold. 15 For the benefit of the members, 16 we do have a list at the desk and Senator 17 Seabrook, Senator Goodman, Senator Dollinger, 18 Senator Marcellino and Senator Stavisky have all 19 indicated a desire -- and now Senator Leichter 20 -- to speak. So keep that in mind. The debate 21 started at 4... excuse me -- 3:50. 22 Senator Gold. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 2384 1 President. 2 Mr. President, one thing I can - 3 there are a number of things that are obvious 4 but they really should be said because I and I 5 know other people were not too happy with some 6 of the tones that we've heard here today. First 7 of all, there's nobody on either side of this 8 bill that has a monopoly on virtue. 9 The opponents of this bill are 10 very sincere, and if you take a look at the 11 memos in opposition, they come from 12 organizations to be respected, organizations 13 which I don't consider crackpot, and I don't 14 think, as I said, anyone has the monopoly on 15 virtue. 16 Senator Abate said that she 17 agrees with the goals of the bill "but", and 18 what came into my mind at that point was a case 19 I was involved in years ago where we used to 20 have the courts with three judges and they tried 21 misdemeanors and a lawyer was on trial, and 22 during the course of that case, the defense 23 tried to do a number of things and it seemed 2385 1 whatever that they tried to do, there was some 2 technicality and they couldn't do it, and at one 3 point, the person who was really guilty -- it 4 was a commercial kind of crime -- came into 5 court, admitted that he was guilty and the court 6 said, "Well, we can't even take this because of 7 technicalities" and they convicted the lawyer. 8 On appeal, the decision was very simple. You 9 cannot come up with a technicality that leads 10 you to a crazy decision and which convicts 11 somebody of a crime they didn't commit when you 12 know that somebody else did it. 13 I'm concerned about the memos in 14 opposition. I'm concerned that this issue has 15 been taken out of proportion, and to be very 16 candid about it, I don't blame the chief 17 sponsor, Nettie Mayersohn, for doing that. I 18 think she's been courageous in a very difficult 19 fight, but it's out of proportion, and we hear 20 people talking about civil rights, which is 21 something I take very seriously and I -- I'm 22 very proud, 100 percent rating of the Civil 23 Liberties Union, I think 16, 17 years in a row. 2386 1 I take civil rights seriously, but I think that 2 if you're going to keep your eye on the ball on 3 this issue, the bottom line is that while there 4 may be other opportunities -- and, Senator 5 Abate, I think that your analysis of other 6 opportunities is important, and I think that 7 other things should be done, but the fact is 8 that while we're doing all of these machinations 9 and we're arguing over civil rights and things 10 like -- and we're all the way off in a corner 11 some place, there are lives that could be saved. 12 How many times do we see large 13 sums of money being spent, the media all around, 14 a child falls into a hole and everybody's going 15 to save that child and it doesn't matter whether 16 it's $5 million. That one life is so important, 17 particularly when the television cameras are 18 there, that we're going to save it. 19 Well, this bill is not talking 20 about an isolated life with television cameras. 21 It's talking about a significant percentage of 22 newborns that can be helped, and as with all 23 legislation that we deal with, nothing is 100 2387 1 percent. 2 We have books and books full of 3 legislation that deal with a little town here or 4 helping a school district there or this bill 5 will help seniors who happen to go to the parks, 6 and we've had bills that said maybe we should 7 open up college courses just to seniors. We 8 don't do every bill to help everybody, and 9 here's a bill where the estimates are that 10 perhaps as many as 25 percent could be helped by 11 a situation, and my reading of it is very 12 simple, and in saying it's simple, I say it with 13 respect, which I think everybody should have for 14 the opponents of the bill, but to me, it's a 15 simple choice of if we do this, there's a chance 16 of doing good and helping some kids. If we 17 don't, we're back in the same predicament we 18 have been. Talking about creating health policy 19 is good if we can do it, but so far what they've 20 done has not done the job, as far as I see it. 21 And so from my point of view, I'm 22 going to support the bill. I think that Nettie 23 Mayersohn gets an enormous amount of credit. 2388 1 She has lived this thing day in and day out, and 2 I think that she's a real heroine. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Paterson, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 6 with the permission of the Majority, may we call 7 the roll for Senator Lachman who has to leave? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Secretary will read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 11 act shall take effect on the first day of 12 January. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll.) 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Lachman, how do you vote? 18 SENATOR LACHMAN: I vote yes on 19 this measure. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Lachman will be recorded in the affirmative. 22 The roll call is withdrawn. 23 The Chair recognizes Senator 2389 1 Seabrook. 2 SENATOR SEABROOK: Thank you, Mr. 3 President. 4 First of all, I certainly would 5 like for a point of information, that there was 6 no joking matter with Senator Velella. I was 7 asking him a couple of questions over here, so 8 we were not joking. We were seriously talking 9 about the bill. I just want that to go on the 10 record, and I was asking questions, so I'll ask 11 it through the Chair, if I may. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Velella, do you yield? 14 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Senator yields. 17 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yes. Senator 18 Velella, just three quick questions that I was 19 asking you over here, is that what is the -- if 20 we're talking about the mandatory testing of all 21 mothers who are basically pregnant, what is the 22 percentage, if you know, of these tests that are 23 performed that come back flawed in terms of a 2390 1 test that's taken from a pregnant mother and it 2 comes back saying that this mother is positive 3 and there is treatment that's being provided to 4 this mother and we find out later that this 5 mother is not positive, not HIV-positive; what 6 percentages of HIV tests that we actually give 7 out now that come back - 8 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, first 9 of all, this bill doesn't mandate testing of 10 mothers. It mandates tests of the infants when 11 they're born, but during the course of, you 12 know, prenatal counseling, if a test is 13 administered, I have no idea what the -- what 14 the rate would be of -- of errors in tests. I 15 would assume they would be on a par with others 16 in tests that might be for a variety of things, 17 higher cholesterol, blood sugars. There is a 18 narrow margin, unfortunately. I don't know of 19 anything that I've read that indicates that 20 there is a higher percentage of misdiagnosis on 21 HIV testing than on any other test, but 22 hopefully if a course of treatment is given, 23 there would be repeated tests and it would be 2391 1 detected if you're getting good medical 2 attention, I would hope, but I can't give you 3 the absolute answer. 4 SENATOR SEABROOK: But there is a 5 possibility and this has been documented that 6 there - 7 SENATOR VELELLA: I would assume 8 so. I can't document them, Senator, but I would 9 assume there's been some misdiagnoses, hopefully 10 that have been corrected later on. 11 SENATOR SEABROOK: And if during 12 that particular period of this -- and we - 13 you've tested this newborn, what type of 14 treatment is afforded to this newborn if it is 15 found that this baby is -- by that first test, 16 is positive, what treatment? 17 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, there are 18 three main things that we are concerned with, if 19 we detect that the child has the antibody, and 20 one would be to monitor the child closely 21 because perhaps it will shed that antibody, but 22 the first main thing is if that child would shed 23 that antibody and be AIDS-free and develop 2392 1 normally, if the mother might introduce the 2 virus back into the child by breast-feeding. So 3 once we determine that the child has the 4 antibody, we would want to be very sure that the 5 mother is not breast-feeding because if the 6 child could shed the antibody and cure itself 7 the way 75 percent do, the mother, by breast 8 feeding, might reintroduce that virus and give 9 the child full-blown AIDS. That's the first 10 thing. 11 The second thing is there are 12 some programs that are being developed and have 13 been developed to treat these children that are 14 identified with strong antibiotics to protect 15 them from the pneumonias that develop and to 16 make them be on a very vigilant watch by their 17 doctors so that at the first signs of a cold, a 18 simple cold, it will not develop into these 19 pneumonias. If you don't know the child has the 20 potential for AIDS or the AIDS virus, you'll 21 think they have a cold that will develop into a 22 pneumonia and could be fatal or at least require 23 a long period of hospitalization and cause some 2393 1 very serious damage to the children. 2 At some of our press conferences, 3 Assemblywoman Mayersohn had some of the children 4 who were victims of these pneumonias that caused 5 severe brain damage and severe problems to them, 6 and it was a very sad case. So we would be 7 preparing -- or allowing the doctor to prevent 8 those very negative results by treating the 9 child if, in fact, we diagnose that. 10 And the third thing is, as I 11 mentioned before, that we use a different 12 inoculation program for a child who has a 13 weakened immune deficiency system, you know, 14 immune system. You don't shoot live, active 15 polio vaccines into their veins. You give them 16 weakened forms or whatever the medically proper 17 treatment would be, so that you don't introduce 18 something that they can't resist and give them 19 something like a polio contamination or 20 something like that. 21 So those are the three main areas 22 where we could be helpful with these tests. Can 23 we save their lives at this point? No. Can we 2394 1 make their life more comfortable and make it 2 longer? Yes. And hopefully, if we do that, 3 they'll be more comfortable, they will live 4 longer, and maybe we'll find a cure. 5 I just want to add in here while 6 I have an opportunity to say, I think somebody 7 misspoke before and said the Medical Society 8 opposed this bill. I have the memo from the New 9 York State Medical Society supporting the bill. 10 SENATOR SEABROOK: Thank you. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 12 recognizes Senator Goodman. 13 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President, 14 some years ago, this body saw fit to pass into 15 law a bill that I had the privilege of 16 sponsoring which created the AIDS Institute and 17 the AIDS Advisory Council. The institute is the 18 component of the Department of Health which has 19 dealt with the AIDS epidemic in its many 20 manifestations. The AIDS Advisory Council was a 21 carefully selected group of the top experts in 22 the state of New York to advise the Institute 23 and the Governor and this legislative body on 2395 1 the best methods of dealing with AIDS. These 2 were medical people. They were the heads of 3 hospital units dealing with AIDS. They were 4 physicians. They were immunologists. They were 5 a group of perhaps the wisest people we could 6 assemble at our direction for the purpose of 7 guiding us in this matter. 8 When the question arose as to 9 what should be done about testing of newborn 10 children and their mothers, this institute did 11 -- this advisory council made an extensive 12 study, and it was only after about eight months 13 that it returned with a conclusion which was 14 firm and unequivocal, and that conclusion ran 15 something like this: In plain layman's language 16 it said there's absolutely no purpose in locking 17 the barn door after the horse is out, which 18 loosely translated, it meant that there's 19 absolutely no purpose in seeking to test a 20 newborn baby because the vectors of transmission 21 of AIDS occur prenatally while the child is 22 still in the mother's womb. 23 That's the fundamental fact that 2396 1 we must keep in mind in determining what the 2 best strategy is to try to provide testing and 3 counseling, and it was the conclusion of the 4 AIDS Advisory Council that the only sure way to 5 prevent the occurrence of the AIDS transmission 6 which occurs prenatally in the womb was to find 7 the best possible inducement to attract women to 8 come in and be counseled and to take tests if 9 they were willing to do so. I underline "if 10 they were willing to do so" because, my 11 colleagues, what we have to stop and think about 12 for a moment is the factors that weigh on a 13 young mother's mind when she finds that she's 14 pregnant and she fears many things in her life, 15 not the least of which is that she may have a 16 stillborn baby or that she may have contracted 17 some disease which will affect her child, and 18 she is just plain frightened. She doesn't know 19 how to cope with this. She, in many instances, 20 has no medical sophistication. The people 21 gathered in this room in terms of a scale of one 22 to a hundred of medical sophistication rank 23 somewhere about 80 and the average young, 2397 1 impoverished who has had no opportunity to be 2 educated in these areas ranks somewhere around a 3 scale of ten. What this means is that there is 4 no sense of what to do about practicing prudent 5 methods of prevention in the manner of AIDS and 6 that results in the focal point of our problem. 7 Now, I must say that Senator 8 Velella deserves hard praise for what is 9 unquestionably a sincere and dedicated effort to 10 come to grips with this particular problem, but 11 there was a unanimous report brought in by the 12 AIDS Advisory Council on this question. It said 13 "No, no, no. You cannot wait until a baby is 14 born. The only means to prevent a newborn from 15 contracting HIV require knowledge of maternal 16 HIV status before birth. Virtually every 17 newborn who tests HIV-positive does so because 18 its mother herself is HIV-positive." 19 Now, we have the Center for 20 Disease Control statistics which confirm this. 21 We know that more than 95 percent of AIDS cases 22 in children occur from birth to four years and 23 they are caused by prenatal infection. A 2398 1 positive test indicates not whether the newborn 2 is HIV-positive but whether maternal antibodies 3 are. If a newborn tests positive, we learn that 4 the mother was HIV, has HIV and that the odds 5 are roughly one in four that the infant itself 6 is HIV-positive. Unfortunately, there is no 7 post-birth treatment at this time to reduce 8 these odds. I repeat, there is no post-birth 9 treatment at this time to reduce these odds. 10 AZT or other anti-retroviral drugs don't prevent 11 seroconversion in the infant. Do we realize 12 what this means? It means that the primary 13 treatment is antibiotics, as Senator Velella has 14 said, administered prophylactically several 15 times a day to ward off a form of pneumonia 16 which strikes the newborn but it doesn't prevent 17 the infection of the newborn. 18 So, my colleagues, I posit to you 19 the simple notion that what we have to do is 20 concoct a strategy, which is most likely to 21 lure, if you will, or to induce a prenatal 22 mother to come in and be part of the new 23 developments of medical science which will 2399 1 protect her and her baby. 2 Now, you say, "Mama, come in here 3 and if you come in, you can damn well expect 4 that you're going to have to take a test which 5 will reveal whether you've got AIDS, and if it 6 reveals that you've got AIDS, welcome to the 7 club of infinite embarrassment, because you'll 8 never be able to face your neighbors. You'll be 9 marked with an 'A', but not the adultery 'A', 10 the 'A' for AIDS", and that's a stigma which is 11 absolutely overwhelming to a young mother, or 12 you can say, "Come in and let us counsel you. 13 Let us let you know that, if you happen to have 14 been exposed, this is not a certain death 15 certificate for you or your child, but there are 16 ways in which we can help you to overcome this 17 problem", and if we do that, Mr. President, I 18 submit to you that therein lies our best chance 19 of getting this problem solved, and that's the 20 rationale which seems to stand logic on its 21 head. 22 The normal common sensible 23 persons says, Of course, you've got to test a 2400 1 new baby to see if the baby has AIDS so you can 2 treat the baby and know what the mother's status 3 is, but the fact of the matter is it's too late 4 to treat the baby if you give the baby a 5 post-birth test because by that time, the baby 6 has a one in four chance of being HIV-positive. 7 So that's why this seeming illogical inversion 8 is, in fact, an eminently sensible approach and, 9 indeed, the only one which can bring about a 10 solution to the problem. 11 The experts have been into this. 12 They've looked at it. They're not crazy. 13 You've got an overwhelming body of people who 14 have studied this problem intensively who tell 15 us, Don't pick the easy answer and the one that 16 seems to be right. Pick the one that is right, 17 and that's the one which says, find the way to 18 gain the confidence of the young mother and get 19 her in and work with her. If we do that, my 20 friends, we then have a fighting chance to do 21 something about this tragic problem. If we fail 22 to do that and if we focus only on the immediate 23 postnatal testing of the infant on a mandatory 2401 1 basis, we scare the wits out of the mother. We 2 drive many of them away. They don't want to 3 come in because they fear that big "A". They're 4 afraid of being revealed to have an 5 embarrassment and, indeed, a tragic -- a tragedy 6 on their hands, and that's what the problem is. 7 So let us, please -- I suspect 8 there are very few people whose minds will be 9 changed by what I'm saying, but I haven't 10 debated this before, but I felt at last I had to 11 get up and remind you, the Senate does some very 12 foresighted things. It creates bodies to look 13 and study things and they come back with 14 conclusions. 15 I beg of you, my colleagues, 16 don't ignore the conclusions of the very body 17 you've created to advise the Governor and this 18 Legislature and the people of the state on the 19 solutions to these problem. Take them 20 seriously. They are the experts. They know, 21 and even if you don't agree with the logic that 22 I've developed, take it on good faith. Protect 23 the mothers. Protect the kids. Get them in. 2402 1 Win their confidence, and that's the way to 2 fight this war. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 4 recognizes Senator Dollinger. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Will Senator 6 Velella yield to a couple quick questions? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Velella, do you yield to Senator Dollinger? 9 (Senator Velella nods head.) 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: As usual, 11 Senator Velella, sometimes I read these bills 12 and go through and find some things that just 13 appear to be slightly inconsistent, and I want 14 to make sure I understand them. 15 Under the bill, it suggests that 16 the mandatory counseling provision -- I'm 17 dealing with the first page -- it talks about - 18 in line 11 and 12, it says that a physician or 19 an authorized practitioner may or must give the 20 counseling, and then on line 18, it says that 21 the notice of a right to accept or decline is 22 only given by the attending physician. Was it 23 your intention to exclude "other authorized 2403 1 practitioners" from that portion? 2 Again, I know I'm sort of 3 switching gears from philosophical issues to 4 specific issues. 5 SENATOR VELELLA: I have to 6 apologize. I had started to pack up my papers. 7 I thought we were at the end of the debate. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Little did 9 you know that I would pop up at the tail end. 10 SENATOR VELELLA: It usually 11 happens. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, just 13 so you - 14 SENATOR VELELLA: Can you repeat 15 the question because I was trying to find the 16 lines. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 18 you, Mr. President, on line 13 of the bill, it 19 says that "A physician or authorized 20 practitioner shall offer to take a blood test", 21 all right? The next sentence says, "The 22 pregnant woman, upon notice of a right to accept 23 or decline such test by the attending physician" 2404 1 -- you don't include the phrase "authorized 2 practitioner" there. Is your intention that the 3 declining of the -- taking the test can only be 4 done by a pract... by a physician? 5 SENATOR VELELLA: I think it's in 6 the drafting. Taking of the test can be given 7 when drawing the blood -- obviously can be given 8 by a health care technician. It doesn't need to 9 be a physician, although that might be wiser in 10 this setting, but I think it's just a drafting 11 question. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But it would 13 be your intention, for example, if they -- if 14 the health care provider were a midwife or nurse 15 practitioner, they could give the same 16 disclosure. 17 SENATOR VELELLA: That would be 18 my intention, yes. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So it's 20 nothing more than a drafting mistake. Okay. 21 On page 2 of the bill where it 22 talks about a woman who has tested positive for 23 HIV after being given the mandatory counseling 2405 1 -- we're at the pre-birth testing -- it says 2 that "The physician or authorized practitioner 3 or attending *** shall refer the woman to 4 HIV-related services." My question is what if 5 the woman elects not to go? What's the 6 consequence of that? 7 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, again, 8 I've heard so much today, and I agree with most 9 of it about the need for counseling and a lot of 10 people confusing the purposes of this bill. I 11 absolutely 100 percent agree, the best way to do 12 it is catch it early, look at it, counsel the 13 woman as early as possible, and that's all in 14 our bill. We don't say "No counseling. We're 15 taking the money away from you. All we're going 16 to do is test your baby and we're only 17 interested in the final product. The heck with 18 you all before that." 19 All those safeguards that Senator 20 Goodman, Senator Abate and several others talked 21 about are in there. We want to use all those 22 avenues, every one of them, but when that fails, 23 we want to catch the only way we can catch it 2406 1 toward the end when that baby is born. We want 2 to catch that disease to do what we can in that 3 limited capacity. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. Again 5 through you, Mr. President, if Senator - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Velella, do you continue to yield? The Senator 8 continues to yield. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I agree with 10 all of that too. I mean, I like this bill 11 better than I've liked prior versions because of 12 the emphasis on mandatory counseling, but my 13 question is this seems to suggest that if a 14 woman in response to mandatory counseling takes 15 the test, it's what we want her to do, it says 16 that the physician or authorized practitioner 17 shall refer her to certain services. 18 My question is, what's the 19 consequence if she fails to follow through with 20 that referral? And I'll be blunt with you, 21 Senator. Here's what I'm looking for. Would 22 that lead to a finding of neglect on the part of 23 this mother if she did not take the services, 2407 1 did not take the AZT testing that we all agree 2 she should have? My question is, does this 3 usher her into a neglect proceeding? 4 SENATOR VELELLA: The answer to 5 that, Senator, is -- let me give you both 6 answers. I would love to be able to do that, if 7 Guy Velella had his way. This bill does not do 8 that to the mother. It provides the avenue, the 9 opportunity. It directs her. It provides the 10 services, but if she doesn't avail herself of 11 them, I don't believe there's anything else we 12 can do. We've shown her everything possible. 13 When the baby is born, hopefully we'll be able 14 to deal with the problem of the baby's 15 existence. 16 If I had my way, absolutely, I'd 17 do the same thing we do with tuberculosis. 18 We've stopped tuberculosis by requiring people 19 to be tested. We can hold them against their 20 will in a hospital 'til the results of a 21 tuberculosis test comes back to stop the 22 spread. I would try to do the same thing if we 23 had good, common -- good, reasonable cause to 2408 1 believe that someone was spreading AIDS. We've 2 got to treat infectious diseases as infectious 3 diseases, not play political favors because one 4 group is more vulnerable than another. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 6 you, Mr. President, if Senator Velella will 7 continue to yield. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Senator continues to yield. 10 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Isn't that 12 the risk, Senator, that those of us who have 13 opposed this bill in the past are afraid of, is 14 that the notion that the test could lead to a 15 neglect finding, and I think the bill opens the 16 door to that. I agree with you that the text of 17 this bill doesn't go that far, but it seems to 18 me that a physician or a hospital which has the 19 major liability under this bill for requiring 20 the testing and the counseling could and might 21 and more than likely will, if a woman has tested 22 positive under mandatory counseling and she 23 refuses to take the services, will, in fact, be 2409 1 a subject of a neglect proceeding, and my only 2 concern there is, do you believe that that 3 threat of neglect, finding of neglect with all 4 the possible consequences, will deter the mother 5 from taking the test? 6 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, I don't 7 -- to respond to your question directly -- you 8 had three criteria there: "Could", "might" and 9 "definitely will". I believe after being in 10 this chamber for now ten years that we can't 11 rule out anything that the courts might do. So 12 anything could happen. Ultimately, definitely 13 will, I don't believe so. I think that this 14 bill does not present that threat, and if it 15 does and it loses a few people along the way, 16 I'm sorry for that, but it's going to save a lot 17 more lives and it's going to help a lot more 18 people than it might injure because someone 19 might be concerned about that. I think that 20 goes to the ultimate remote possibility. Maybe 21 a few people might fall into the crack there, 22 but we're going catch a lot more babies and make 23 their lives a little more comfortable and maybe 2410 1 give them a longer and better quality of life 2 while they're here, and I think that's more 3 important. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I understand 5 that motive. Just one other question about the 6 text of the bill. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Velella, do you continue to yield? 9 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Senator continues to yield. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On page 3 of 13 the bill, in lines 15 through 18, it says that 14 "Once the results of the test come back", it 15 says, "testing -- the recording of the results 16 of the test, tracking follow-up reviews and 17 educational activities shall be performed at 18 such times and in such manner as may be 19 prescribed by the commissioner." 20 Is it your intention to require 21 that the mother and the family provide and 22 comply with the directions of whoever gives 23 those directions as a possible beginning of a 2411 1 neglect proceeding? 2 SENATOR VELELLA: Again, the 3 issue is not neglect. It's a question of trying 4 to get the services to the person that has the 5 affliction, and certainly we would like to see 6 the follow-up that the commissioner may detect 7 for that child -- or may direct, rather, for 8 that child to be followed up. So it's not a 9 question of neglect. It's a policy of positive 10 reinforcement and aggressive action. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 12 President, on the bill. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Dollinger on the bill. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think that 16 Senator Velella's sincerity in this bill is 17 evident to everyone in the chamber, and the 18 notion that somehow what's at stake here is 19 children's lives, frankly, is something that is 20 important to us all. 21 However, in looking at this bill, 22 I still believe that the experts who have spoken 23 out against it make a relatively good point, 2412 1 that when the AIDS Advisory Council, as Senator 2 Goodman mentions, when the College of Obstetrics 3 and Gynecology comes forward, when HANYS that's 4 going to have to actually administer this bill, 5 comes forward and says, "This is bad science. 6 From our perspective, it's bad science. It 7 doesn't address the issue present in the 8 streets", and I think the issue that's present 9 in the streets is the notion that this test will 10 lead to neglect proceedings brought against 11 mothers who have either young babies or who are 12 pregnant, and what I think that will do is that 13 will be a substantial disincentive to get them 14 into the kind of counseling program that will 15 get them to take the test at a time when, as 16 Senator Velella properly points out, 75 percent 17 of the infection rate can be reduced by the AZT 18 therapy, and my fear is that while this bill may 19 help some who need mandatory counseling and will 20 benefit from mandatory counseling, it may also 21 run the risk of alienating another portion of 22 our population who are perhaps most at risk and 23 drive them out of the health care system. 2413 1 So from my point of view, when 2 someone -- when the science part of this debate 3 says it's bad science, our going forward, in my 4 judgment, becomes the worst kind of political 5 science, and that is science which is dictated 6 by politicians rather than science dictated by 7 scientists. ACOG is against this. The AIDS 8 Advisory Council is against this. HANYS that 9 would have to provide these services says it's 10 not a good idea to do. Senator Abate quoted a 11 portion of it. They say, "Testing newborns 12 provides no definitive medical information 13 regarding newborn's infection status" because, 14 as we all know, they could test positive and not 15 develop the HIV. "Two, it would create a 16 climate of distrust between provider and 17 patient." We don't want any notion of distrust 18 to affect the very fragile relationship between 19 a pregnant woman or a woman, a newborn child and 20 her attending physician. 21 And lastly, it says "It would 22 discourage at-risk woman from seeking pregnancy 23 related care, such that the anticipated benefits 2414 1 from mandatory testing may be eliminated by a 2 resultant increase in infant morbidity and 3 mortality." 4 It seems to me there are risks 5 involved in this legislation. I understand the 6 risk that Senator Velella, Assemblywoman 7 Mayersohn are trying to ameliorate, but it seems 8 to me that when you look at this bill in a total 9 picture, it doesn't do that job, and as 10 difficult a decision as this is for me -- and 11 it's a close one, quite frankly -- I nonetheless 12 believe that science ought to be left to the 13 scientists. We should listen to our scientists, 14 and when they tell us this is a bad idea, we 15 should hear them and follow their point of view. 16 I will be voting in the negative, 17 Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Skelos, why do you rise? 20 SENATOR SKELOS: If there's no 21 objection, could we have the last section read 22 for the purposes of Senator Farley. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2415 1 Secretary will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 3 act shall take effect on the first day of 4 January. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll.) 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Farley, how do you vote? 10 SENATOR FARLEY: I vote aye. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Farley will be recorded in the affirmative. The 13 roll call is withdrawn. 14 The Chair will recognize Senator 15 Marcellino. 16 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 17 Mr. President. 18 This is the second time around on 19 this bill for me. I supported it the first 20 time. I will support it again. I hear 21 language, words like "embarrassment", words like 22 "we should try to get people into -- it's not 23 necessarily going to help the child." It's 2416 1 going to -- if a child tests positive for AIDS 2 -- for the AIDS antibodies, that generally 3 means, by my way of thinking, that the mother 4 has the disease. The mother is at risk too. 5 We're talking about a few -- that we try to save 6 the children, yeah, that's great. We should do 7 as much as we can, but we do know one fact. 8 While there's a chance some of those babies 9 won't have AIDS, we know mama does, and if we 10 don't tell her, she'll continue to do what she's 11 doing, spreading the disease to others. You 12 have to deal with that. That's a reality. 13 We're worried about embarrassment. It's life 14 and death. If you don't tell her, she'll 15 continue her behavior and never change. 16 You have to inform -- how do you 17 have knowledge that someone's at risk and you 18 don't tell them? How do you have that knowledge 19 and not know? You'll do it if they have 20 chickenpox. You'll do it if it's tuberculosis. 21 You wouldn't dream of letting someone with 22 tuberculosis leave a hospital. Nobody in his 23 right mind would do that. You wouldn't dream of 2417 1 letting someone with measles walk out the door 2 without telling them. We wouldn't dream of 3 letting any other infectious disease, gonorrhea, 4 syphilis, name it. If we knew you had it, we 5 would tell you, without any hesitation at all. 6 Here we have a disease that is 7 lethal to the person that gets it, and they can 8 spread this disease which we acknowledge is a 9 disease which is spreading into all areas of 10 society regardless of sexual persuasion, 11 regardless of color, race, creed, religion, you 12 name it, height, weight, it doesn't matter, and 13 yet we won't tell you. We know you're going to 14 die, but we're not going to tell you because we 15 don't want to scare you. We don't want to 16 embarrass you. So, therefore, we're going to 17 let you go out and spread the disease and kill 18 more. Where's the logic in that? I really 19 don't understand it. 20 I respect the arguments that I 21 hear from my colleagues, I really do. I 22 understand where you're coming from. I 23 understand what you're trying to get at, but how 2418 1 do you get past that one point? "Mama is 2 dying." She has the disease. We know that she 3 has the disease. We can make her life better. 4 We can help her make her life better. All we 5 have to do is tell her. How in God's name can 6 we keep that information to ourselves? How in 7 God's name under any justification can you not 8 let someone who is suffering from a lethal 9 disease know it so that they will take care of 10 themselves and that they will not hopefully 11 spread it to others? 12 My colleagues, I just don't 13 understand how we can do anything else but tell 14 these people, and I think that's the genesis of 15 this bill, and that's the argument that I 16 haven't heard overcome yet. I haven't heard 17 anyone address that point, that when you know 18 something like that and you hold it to yourself, 19 how do you get past -- what possible 20 justification can there be? I haven't heard a 21 single one address that issue at this point in 22 time, and I say I support the bill this time. I 23 commend Senator Velella and Assemblywoman 2419 1 Mayersohn. They're doing a service to society 2 here, and I think we should contribute to that 3 service. I'll vote aye. I think this is a 4 worthy bill. It should be passed once again. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Dollinger, why do you rise? 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would Senator 8 Marcellino yield to just one quick question? 9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Sure. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Senator yields. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Could you 13 tell me, Senator, whether there's anything in 14 current law anywhere in this state or this 15 nation which prohibits a woman from asking 16 whether or not she can be tested for the HIV 17 virus? 18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I know of no 19 such thing that would prevent anyone from asking 20 if she wanted to be tested. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So any woman 22 in New York State who wants to know can find 23 out, isn't that correct, and no one would 2420 1 prevent anyone from telling her? 2 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Senator, 3 would you yield me a question? If you know that 4 I have a disease - 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 6 President, I don't think I've yielded yet. 7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Oh, please, 8 let me do it. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Dollinger. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 12 President, I'm prepared to yield as a quid pro 13 quo for an answer. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Dollinger, just for the sake of -- so we 16 understand where we are, Senator Marcellino had 17 the floor. You rose as he was giving up the 18 floor to ask him a question. You don't have the 19 floor, Senator, but are you asking him to yield 20 to another question? There are other people on 21 the list that would like to be recognized like 22 Senator Stavisky has been very, very kind in 23 waiting and Senator Leichter has been - 2421 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I asked my 2 one question, Mr. President. I'll sit down. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 4 you. 5 The Chair recognizes Senator 6 Stavisky. 7 SENATOR STAVISKY: I was moved by 8 the argument, those opposing this bill, that by 9 the time we learn that the baby has AIDS or is 10 HIV-positive, that it's too late. What I ask 11 those people who are opposing this legislation 12 here or outside of these chambers, would you, 13 therefore, look for early identification when it 14 is not too late? 15 Remember, New York State once had 16 a Wasserman Law which required that before there 17 was a marriage certificate issued, a test for 18 venereal disease had to be undertaken. Are you 19 advocating that maybe we should go back to that, 20 or are you reconciled to the idea that not 21 everyone has sexual intercourse with benefit of 22 clergy? Do you, therefore, require to get the 23 early on information that before anyone has 2422 1 sexual intercourse of any kind, that they have a 2 test for HIV-positive? That would really be an 3 intrusion on confidentiality. That would be an 4 intrusion of the grossest kind, and I'm not 5 advocating that, but I have heard these pleas 6 that -- yes, thank God -- I've heard these pleas 7 that "We've got to get it early on, early on, 8 early on." Well, what about going back to the 9 Wasserman Laws standard? If you are so 10 concerned about doing it early on, have a test 11 for AIDS given to both male and female to 12 determine whether they are carrying this HIV 13 virus or full-blown AIDS. I don't propose 14 that. I don't think the opponents of this 15 legislation are proposing that. 16 I've also heard crocodile tears. 17 "We are going to look only to the experts in 18 the medical profession." I can assure you that 19 there have been lobbying groups showing up at 20 meetings of the medical profession, opposing 21 this legislation. The memos in opposition don't 22 all come full blown without intensive lobbying 23 outside of these chambers, and some of you have 2423 1 seen the results of lobbying for and against 2 this bill inside the chamber. 3 Now, do we have clean hands with 4 regard to following only medical advice, or do 5 we make medical decisions as a Legislature in a 6 different life? When I served in the Assembly, 7 I served with a very fine legislator by the name 8 of Jim Tallon, and Jim Tallon managed to put 9 through a change in the law here when he was 10 chairman of the Health Committee and he was also 11 the Majority Leader, in which the Legislature 12 determined what was right and what was not going 13 to be law. 14 We have a compulsory school 15 attendance law in New York State. Kids have to 16 be in school allegedly 180 days a year for a 17 specific number of hours, minimum hours, and I 18 remember Jim Tallon saying, "We will not admit 19 into school any child who has not had the 20 inoculations that are beneficial to the health 21 of that child and to the health of everyone 22 else." 23 Now, here was a conflict between 2424 1 an existing law on compulsory school attendance 2 and a belief that you could compel compliance 3 with public health by making it necessary for 4 parents to see that their children receive the 5 necessary inoculations so they wouldn't be 6 spreading disease and they wouldn't be subject 7 to contamination themselves, and we in this 8 Legislature, as political people, not as doctors 9 and not as educators either, we in this 10 Legislature decided that before a child could go 11 to elementary school or kindergarten, that child 12 had to have proof that the inoculations had been 13 performed. 14 Now, that's a decision made by 15 the Legislature, running contrary to the 16 compulsory school attendance. We didn't say, 17 "Reach out to the parents. Prevail upon them 18 to do the right thing. Talk to them. Counsel 19 them." We said, "No. You do not go and bring 20 your child to school unless the inoculations 21 have taken place." 22 In the same spirit, we have a 23 power, and I believe we have the responsibility 2425 1 to protect everyone, including the child, and 2 that child can't ask the parent to go through 3 the test. That child has been given a test for 4 AIDS. That child can't speak. That child can't 5 reason. That child can't plead, and that child 6 can't ask the parent to be tested. That child 7 is silent except for cries out of hunger and out 8 of discomfort. That child can't reason with the 9 parent. 10 So I ask you, there are times 11 when we have to -- there are times when we have 12 to make a decision that will protect those who 13 cannot help themselves and babies cannot help 14 themselves if adults are unwilling to help 15 them. 16 In that spirit -- and not to 17 embarrass anyone, not to speak about political 18 correctness in terms of posturing, but rather to 19 speak in terms of what is necessary to save the 20 lives of children, I would urge my colleagues to 21 allow this to become law and hope that the 22 Assembly is equally responsible in the progress 23 of the bill in the other house, otherwise Nettie 2426 1 Mayersohn will never forgive them and neither 2 will the children who will be vulnerable to this 3 dread disease. 4 I hope you will vote in the 5 affirmative. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 7 recognizes Senator Leichter. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 9 I will try to be very brief because I think 10 really most points have been covered. 11 I had an interesting experience 12 not that long ago. I was at the University of 13 Michigan Law School where my son was attending 14 and he put me on a panel that his section on 15 health law was -- had arranged, and it happened 16 to be on the HIV babies. I said, "Oh, I don't 17 want to do this. I've heard this", and so on. 18 He said, "No, no. You got to be on this 19 panel." So I was on the panel, and also on the 20 panel was either the Commissioner of Health of 21 the state of Michigan -- it wasn't clear to me. 22 It was either the Commissioner of Health or the 23 primary doctor of the Health Department of the 2427 1 state of Michigan, and as we discussed the HIV 2 baby's bill and I dis... recounted what had been 3 going on in New York, he expressed amazement. 4 He expressed utter amazement. Now, mind you, he 5 comes from the administration -- the 6 conservative administration of Governor Engler, 7 but he expressed amazement that we in New York 8 State were so fixated on this bill. He said 9 "This bill makes no sense." 10 Now, let me just say to you, we 11 all have the same aim and purpose which is to 12 get people tested that should be tested, which 13 means all pregnant women. Secondly, that if a 14 baby is shown to have the AIDS antibiotics, we 15 certainly want to bring that mother and that 16 baby under treatment. The reason that this 17 doctor -- his name was David Johnson and what he 18 said is what all of these other experts have 19 said, that the bill doesn't make sense is - 20 because this bill doesn't, nor is there anything 21 that we can do to compel treatment. There's no 22 way whatsoever that we can get a mother who is 23 unwilling to get treatment. 2428 1 Now, maybe as Senator Dollinger 2 -- and I think he put his finger precisely on 3 one of the real problems with the bill, as he so 4 often does, is the only way you're going to do 5 it is in a neglect proceeding, and I don't think 6 that we're willing to do that. I don't know if 7 the court would be willing, if you have a 8 neglect proceeding. An infant who has tested 9 positive for the AIDS antibiotics, mother maybe 10 is a Christian Scientist, says, "I don't believe 11 in any treatment" in view of the fact that 12 there's no way to save the life of that baby if, 13 in fact, the test shows that the baby -- and as 14 you know in three out of four, the fact that the 15 baby has the antibiotics, it will not result in 16 actually the baby being infected with the HIV 17 virus, but I doubt very much that any court 18 would apply the neglect law in those 19 situations. 20 So the point really comes down, 21 how do we bring women and their infants where 22 there's indication that there may be infection 23 of AIDS virus into treatment? Now, the people 2429 1 who deal with these women almost universally say 2 the worst way to do it is to compel treatment. 3 That's what this doctor, health official, in the 4 state of Michigan said. That's what these 5 organizations have said. 6 Let me just say to you, Senator 7 Marcellino, the point of this bill was not to 8 inform women that they are HIV-positive as a 9 result of tests on their babies and that, 10 therefore, they will moderate their behavior. 11 That's not the aim of this bill. The aim of 12 this bill is to try to get some treatment for 13 infants in some ways, hopefully, to possibly 14 avoid full-blown AIDS developing, or at the very 15 least, prolong the life of the baby and ease the 16 pain and the suffering that that infant could 17 have. 18 That's the purpose of this bill 19 and, Senator Stavisky, you talked about, "Well, 20 you know, we compel people to be immunized 21 before they can attend schools." That was 22 because the doctors -- because the experts said 23 that's what's needed. Here the experts say, 2430 1 "Don't proceed this way. It doesn't achieve 2 your purpose." Your purpose is laudable. Your 3 purpose is one that everybody who opposes the 4 bill shares. 5 What we're saying and what the 6 experts have said and the people who, again, 7 deal with these women, by and large, those who 8 refuse to be tested, who don't want to know, 9 they're a fragile population. They're difficult 10 to deal with. They're mistrustful, and the 11 issue for us is how to bring them into the 12 system. That's the issue, and you don't do it 13 by telling somebody who says, "Please don't tell 14 me. I don't want to know about AIDS." "You 15 have it." You just don't do it. That's not the 16 way you're going to do it. 17 So I -- it just seems to me -- I 18 think Senator Goodman said it extremely well. 19 We all -- we've set up our own panel to advise 20 us. We are not the experts in this. The people 21 who have worked with this population have said, 22 "Don't go this way because it doesn't achieve 23 the purpose." And for that reason, I voted 2431 1 against the bill last time. I'm going to vote 2 against it, and I want to say, Assembly member 3 Mayersohn, we all know how deeply committed she 4 is and with the best of intentions, but I must 5 rely on the experts and the experts, and with 6 good reason, say this is not the way to save 7 lives. This is not the way to stop the spread 8 of AIDS. This is not the way to prevent 9 suffering of infants. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Leichter, excuse the interruption. 12 Senator Marcellino, why do you 13 rise? 14 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I was going 15 to ask a question, but I'll waive it. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Marcellino waives. 18 The Chair recognizes Senator 19 Goodman -- or, excuse me -- Senator Waldon. 20 SENATOR WALDON: I really 21 appreciate that mistake, considering the ability 22 of Roy to ride in cars that I only dream about. 23 I appreciate the mistake, Senator -- Mr. 2432 1 President. Would the good Senator Guy Velella 2 yield to a question? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Velella, do you yield to a question? 5 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Senator yields. 8 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 9 President. 10 Senator Velella, I'll try to be 11 quick about this. I was wondering, Senator, do 12 you have any information in regard to the number 13 of people who are determined to be HIV-positive 14 who actually live a full and productive life? 15 SENATOR VELELLA: No, Senator, I 16 don't have any statistics. I can just tell you 17 generally, my impression is that -- that have 18 the actual virus? 19 SENATOR WALDON: Have the actual 20 virus. 21 SENATOR VELELLA: That it is 22 ultimately determined -- terminal and people 23 will live a period of years and then slowly 2433 1 degenerate and get an infection and die of the 2 infection. I don't know how long a period that 3 is, if anyone here has that information. 4 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 5 would the Senator - 6 SENATOR VELELLA: I just would 7 say, I don't believe many who have the AIDS 8 virus lead a very long and productive or full 9 and productive life. If it's full, I doubt that 10 that ever is achieved and productive. They do 11 live on and then gradually get worse, is my 12 understanding of the disease. 13 SENATOR WALDON: I'm going to ask 14 a couple more questions - 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Velella, do you continue to yield? 17 SENATOR WALDON: -- if you'll 18 continue to yield. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 Senator continues to yield. 21 SENATOR WALDON: And it will be 22 over very quickly. If I understood you, Senator 23 Velella, you're saying that your knowledge base 2434 1 indicates to you and it is your belief that 2 those who actually have the virus, it is certain 3 that they will die; is that a correct 4 assumption? 5 SENATOR VELELLA: That's my 6 understanding, not if they just have the 7 antibody, but if they have the virus, they will 8 ultimately die. There is no cure. 9 SENATOR WALDON: If the Senator 10 will continue to yield. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator, 12 do you continue to yield? The Senator does. 13 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Velella, 14 in your information base, is there any 15 distinction between children who have the virus, 16 will they live longer -- I'm talking about who 17 actually have the virus, will they live long and 18 productive lives, or is it that it's your 19 knowledge that they also die as well as adults 20 who have the active virus, they die? Trust me, 21 Guy. 22 SENATOR VELELLA: My resident 23 expert, Assemblywoman Mayersohn, who has a lot 2435 1 more of the information, tells me in the case of 2 children, generally to teenage, but they can die 3 as early as seven, eight, six, around there, but 4 the most extended period being into their 5 teenages before they ultimately expire. 6 SENATOR WALDON: Okay. Just one 7 or two more questions, Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Velella, do you continue to yield? 10 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Senator continues to yield. 13 SENATOR WALDON: I believe in the 14 earlier debate, Senator Velella, I heard you 15 very clearly and graphically state and describe 16 that if the baby is born and it is determined 17 that the baby has the antibodies, that if 18 treatment can be given to the baby and the 19 mother does not, through feeding -- breast 20 feeding that child, reintroduce the virus, 21 there's some possibility that that child will 22 not develop full-blown AIDS down the road. 23 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. It's 2436 1 about one in four that will develop the 2 full-blown AIDS. Three out of four will not, 3 unless the virus is reintroduced, as you said. 4 SENATOR WALDON: Last question, 5 Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Velella, do you continue to yield? 8 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 Senator continues to yield. 11 SENATOR WALDON: If I understand 12 you correctly, Senator Velella, are you saying 13 that the benefit of this test would allow as 14 much as 75 percent of the children who are 15 determined to have this antibody, if that's the 16 correct term, to live a full life without having 17 the scourge of AIDS, this insidious disease, 18 take their life far too soon; is that fairly 19 accurate? 20 SENATOR VELELLA: That's correct, 21 so long as it's not reintroduced, yes. 22 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 23 much, Senator. If I may, Mr. President. 2437 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Waldon, on the bill. 3 SENATOR WALDON: I want to 4 support this legislation because I don't think 5 that we have the right to deny any child or any 6 person a life, whether it be with the assistance 7 of AZT or whether it be the opportunity to have 8 a full and productive life because in our wisdom 9 we made it possible for measures to be taken to 10 allow them to have a healthy existence. 11 I don't know who's making money 12 on this if we were to defeat this bill, but I 13 believe that money is a driving force. I 14 certainly don't want to in any way inveigle the 15 rights of women to make the decision. I've 16 never taken a stand publicly or privately in 17 that regard. 18 I believe that what Senator 19 Marcellino said and what others have said is on 20 the money, that this is an insidious, virulent 21 disease, that we must stop it in its track as 22 best as possible, and although this might not be 23 the panacea. This might not be the cure-all. 2438 1 This might not be the end all and the be all. 2 It is a step in the right direction. I think we 3 are absolutely foolish. We are insensitive. We 4 are not wise. We are not good public officials 5 if we do not support this legislation. 6 I vote yes. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Secretary will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 10 act shall take effect on the first day of 11 January. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 16 the results when tabulated. 17 Senator Mendez, to explain your 18 vote? 19 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Mendez to explain her vote. 22 SENATOR MENDEZ: I actually feel 23 that it is a most cruel thing to do not to allow 2439 1 a mother to know that her child is infected with 2 the -- has the antibodies of this horrible 3 virus. 4 In fact, Mr. President, a few 5 weeks ago a constituent of mine went to my 6 office and told me that she's HIV-positive, that 7 she had a baby, the only baby she's ever had in 8 her life, and that if she would have known - 9 the baby passed away at about six or seven 10 months old -- that if she would have known that 11 her child had the antibodies, she would have 12 made it her business to take that child to the 13 doctor's where they should go and maybe she 14 would have known her child could have a chance 15 of being alive now. 16 I feel it is a wonderful bill. 17 Nobody is being mandated to do anything, and 18 it's better for the woman to know so that she 19 will have the choice, either to find treatment 20 for herself or reject any treatment offered to 21 her, but at least she would have a -- she would 22 have a genuine choice. 23 I vote aye, Mr. President. 2440 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Mendez will be recorded in the affirmative. 3 Announce the results. 4 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 5 the negative on Calendar Number 182 are Senators 6 Abate, Connor, Dollinger, Goodman, Leichter, 7 Markowitz, Montgomery, Paterson, Seabrook. Ayes 8 52, nays 9. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 10 is passed. 11 Senator Skelos. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 13 would you please recognize Senator Maltese. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 15 recognizes Senator Maltese. 16 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President, 17 in yesterday's roll call vote, the bill by 18 Senator Holland, Calendar Number 403, I was 19 otherwise engaged on Senate business, arrived in 20 the chamber late. I would ask unanimous consent 21 that had I been present, I would have voted in 22 the affirmative. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2441 1 Maltese, the record will reflect that had you 2 been present yesterday when the roll call was 3 called on Calendar Number 403, that you would 4 have voted in the affirmative. 5 Senator Skelos. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 7 is there any housekeeping at the desk? Wait a 8 minute. Mr. President, I hand up the following 9 notice and ask that it be read and filed in the 10 Journal. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Secretary will read the notice. 13 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Bruno, 14 pursuant to Senate Rule Number XI, Section 1, I 15 hereby give one calendar legislative day's 16 notice that I will move to alter Senate Rule 17 VII, Section 1, in relation to the membership of 18 standing committees. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 notice will be filed. 21 Senator Skelos. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there any 23 other housekeeping at the desk? 2442 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: None, 2 Senator Skelos. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 4 there will be a Majority Conference on Wednesday 5 at 10:00 a.m., and I would like to announce on 6 behalf of Senator Bruno that the legislative 7 session calendar has been modified and there 8 will be no session on Thursday, March 21st, and 9 there being no further business, I move we 10 adjourn until Wednesday, March 20th, 1996 at 11 11:00 a.m. sharp, Majority Conference at 10:00 12 a.m. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Two 14 important announcements. There will be a 15 Majority Conference tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. in 16 the Majority Conference Room, Room 332. 17 Majority Conference tomorrow, Wednesday, March 18 20th, 10:00 a.m. in Room 332. Also, the 19 Thursday session normally scheduled has been 20 cancelled. Without objection, the Senate stands 21 adjourned until tomorrow, 10... or 11:00 a.m., 22 March 20th. 23 (Whereupon, at 5:39 p.m., the 2443 1 Senate adjourned.) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23