Wednesday, March 27, 1996

2769 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 March 27, 1996 10 3:03 p.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 2770 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will 3 come to order. Would everyone please rise and 4 join me in the Pledge of Allegiance. 5 (The assemblage repeated the 6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 7 May we bow our heads in a moment 8 of silence. 9 (A moment of silence was 10 observed.) 11 Reading of the Journal, please. 12 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 13 Tuesday, March 26th. The Senate met pursuant to 14 adjournment, the prayer by the Reverend Thomas 15 Stiles, First Baptist Church of West Seneca. 16 The Journal of Monday, March 25th, was read and 17 approved. On motion, the Senate adjourned. 18 THE PRESIDENT: Without 19 objection, the Journal stands approved as read. 20 Presentation of petitions. 21 Messages from the Assembly. 22 Messages from the Governor. 23 Reports of standing committees. 2771 1 Reports of select committees. 2 Communications and reports from 3 state officers. 4 Motions and resolutions. 5 Senator Volker. 6 SENATOR VOLKER: Madam President, 7 I wish to call up my bill, Calendar Number 212, 8 Assembly Print Number 5707-B. 9 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 10 will read. 11 THE SECRETARY: Assembly Bill 12 5707-B, by Member of the Assembly Hochberg, an 13 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in 14 relation to a defendant's right. 15 SENATOR VOLKER: I now move to 16 reconsider the vote by which this Assembly bill 17 was substituted for my bill, Senate Print Number 18 5741, on February 7th, 1996. 19 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll on 20 reconsideration, please. 21 (The Secretary called the roll on 22 reconsideration.) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39. 2772 1 SENATOR VOLKER: I now move that 2 the Assembly Bill Number 5707-B be recommitted 3 to the Committee on Codes and my Senate bill be 4 restored to the order of Third Reading 5 Calendar. 6 THE PRESIDENT: The Assembly Bill 7 is recommitted. 8 SENATOR VOLKER: Madam President, 9 I now offer the following amendments. 10 THE PRESIDENT: The amendments 11 are received. 12 Senator Bruno. 13 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 14 I believe there are two resolutions at the desk 15 sponsored by Senator Roy Goodman. I would ask 16 that the titles be read and move their immediate 17 adoption. 18 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 19 will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 21 Goodman, Legislative Resolution honoring Lionel 22 Hampton upon the occasion of his 88th birthday. 23 Also, by Senator Goodman, 2773 1 Legislative Resolution honoring the Mount Sinai 2 Alumni Association on its Centennial 3 Anniversary. 4 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Goodman. 5 SENATOR GOODMAN: Madam 6 President, if I may, I would like to just say a 7 brief word about the resolution - 8 THE PRESIDENT: Please do. 9 SENATOR GOODMAN: -- with respect 10 to Lionel Hampton. Madam President, in the his 11 tory of American culture, there are few people 12 who stand taller than Lionel Hampton, a remark 13 able jazz musician and composer who has been 14 honored by presidents and by countless cultural 15 leaders throughout the nation over many years. 16 Lionel Hampton, despite having 17 suffered two recent strokes, is celebrating his 18 88th birthday and has just appeared in a recent 19 concert in which his musical powers have clearly 20 been undiminished. He is a remarkable asset to 21 our country, and I recall very vividly my first 22 visit to the White House, under the presidency 23 of Ronald Reagan, occurred at the invitation of 2774 1 Lionel Hampton who was being honored at that 2 time by the President. A tent was set up on the 3 west lawn of the White House and celebrities 4 from all over the nation were gathered to honor 5 this remarkable human being. 6 He is a warm-hearted, genial and 7 delightful person. Through his initiatives, 8 housing has been developed in his native Harlem 9 for several under-privileged groups bearing the 10 name of Lionel Hampton Houses and the name of 11 his wife. 12 Madam President, there are few 13 people in America of whom we could be proud 14 than Lionel Hampton, and I'm delighted to be 15 able to mark his 88th birthday at this time in 16 this house. 17 Thank you. 18 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, 19 Senator Goodman. 20 The question is on the 21 resolutions for Lionel Hampton and the Mount 22 Sinai Alumni Association on its Centennial 23 Anniversary. All those in favor signify by 2775 1 saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye".) 3 Opposed, nay. 4 (There was no response.) 5 The resolutions are adopted. 6 Senator Bruno, we have some 7 substitutions. 8 SENATOR BRUNO: Can we make the 9 substitutions. 10 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 11 will read. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese 13 moves to discharge from the Committee on 14 Elections, Assembly Bill 4512-A and substitute 15 it for the identical Senate Bill 5280. 16 Senator Lack moves to discharge 17 from the Committee on Judiciary, Assembly Bill 18 8911 and substitute it for the identical Senate 19 Bill 6427. 20 Senator Lack moves to discharge 21 from the Committee on Judiciary, Assembly Bill 22 5786 and substitute it for the identical Senate 23 Bill 6551. 2776 1 Senator Mendez moves to discharge 2 from the Committee on Labor, Assembly Bill 3 6741-B and substitute it for the identical 4 Senate Bill 4019-B. 5 THE PRESIDENT: The substitutions 6 are ordered. 7 Senator Bruno, are you ready for 8 the non-controversial calendar? 9 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Ms. 10 President. Can we now take up the non 11 controversial calendar. 12 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 13 will read. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 282, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 3775-B, an 16 act to amend the Family Court Act, in relation 17 to authorizing the court to require persons 18 failing to comply with an order of support. 19 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 20 section, please. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 2777 1 (The Secretary called the roll.) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 3 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 4 passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 420, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 5772, 7 an act to amend the General Business Law, in 8 relation to the conversion of oil home heating 9 systems. 10 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 11 section, please. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 13 act shall take effect January 1st, 1997. 14 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll.) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 17 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 18 passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 441, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 4633-A, an 21 act to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules, 22 in relation to personal service by mail. 23 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 2778 1 section, please. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 7 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 8 passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 447, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 5104-A, an 11 act to amend the Environmental - 12 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside. 13 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside, 14 please. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 454, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 441-A, an 17 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 18 relation to authorizing distinctive license 19 plates for veterans of the Korean War. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 21 section, please. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 23 act shall take effect on the first day of April. 2779 1 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 4 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 5 passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 458, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 3493-A, an 8 act to amend the Military Law, in relation to 9 the deputy commander of the New York Army 10 National Guard. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 12 last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 460, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 5844, an 23 act to amend the Highway Law, in relation to 2780 1 designating a portion of the state highway 2 system in the county of Richmond as the Korean 3 War Veterans Memorial Highway -- Parkway. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 5 Secretary will read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll.) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 462, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 6067, an 16 act to amend the Correction Law, in relation to 17 the definition of county for purposes of local 18 conditional release commissions. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 Secretary will read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 2781 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 466, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 1465-B, an 8 act in relation to the real property tax 9 assessed by the town of Smithtown. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Secretary will read the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 467, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 1893-A, an 22 act to amend the County Law, in relation to the 23 financial responsibility of the defendant for 2782 1 cost of defense. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 4 bill aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 470, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 3735, an 7 act to amend the General Municipal Law, in 8 relation to creating the town of Southampton 9 Industrial Development Agency. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Secretary will read the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 15 a home rule message at the desk. The Secretary 16 will read the last section. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44, nays 1, 19 Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 21 is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 473, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 5822, an 2783 1 act to legalize, validate, ratify and confirm 2 certain proceedings and actions taken by the 3 town of Caroga. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 5 home rule message at the desk. The Secretary 6 will read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 474, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 5845, an 17 act to amend the Town Law, in relation to a 18 publicity fund in the town of Wilmington, Essex 19 County. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 21 home rule message at the desk. The Secretary 22 will read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2784 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 3 roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll.) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 7 is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 477, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 5966, an act 10 to legalize, validate, ratify and confirm the 11 acts of village board trustees in the village of 12 Catskill. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a 14 home rule message at the desk. The Secretary 15 will read the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll.) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 23 is passed. 2785 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 523, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 1092, an 3 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law and the 4 Social Service Law, in relation to withholding 5 social services rents. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 8 bill aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 591, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 6596, an 11 act to amend Chapter 55 of the laws 1990... 12 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside for 13 one day. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 15 bill aside for the day at the request of the 16 sponsor. 17 Senator Bruno, that completes the 18 reading of the non-controversial calendar. 19 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 20 can we at this time take up the controversial 21 calendar. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 Secretary will read the controversial calendar. 2786 1 THE SECRETARY: On page 26, 2 Calendar Number 447, Senate Print 5104-A, by 3 Senator Saland, an act to amend the 4 Environmental Conservation Law, in relation to 5 the composition of the Hudson River Greenway. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation, 7 please. 8 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay the bill 9 aside, please. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 11 bill aside. 12 SENATOR BRUNO: Temporarily. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 14 Temporarily. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 467, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 1893-A, an 17 act to amend the County Law, in relation to the 18 financial responsibility of the defendant for 19 cost of defense. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation, 21 please. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Volker, an explanation of Calendar Number 467 2787 1 has been asked for by the Acting Minority 2 Leader, Senator Paterson. 3 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 4 this is part of the civil responsibility of the 5 Codes Committee. 6 Several years ago, we passed 7 legislation, I think it's 722 (d) of the County 8 Law, that said that defendants who were 9 represented by paid-for attorneys, that is 10 attorneys who were assigned to them who were 11 able to -- who were found to be able to 12 contribute to their defense were enabled -- the 13 county was enabled to collect the money for the 14 attorneys. 15 One of the problems, however, was 16 -- with that statute was the awkward way - 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Volker, excuse me just a minute. We have an 19 awful lot of noise in the chamber. It's very 20 difficult for the members to hear the 21 explanation. If the members feel they have to 22 have a conversation, please take it out of the 23 chamber. I'll ask the staff members to find 2788 1 their places. 2 Thank you, Senator Volker, for 3 the interruption. I apologize. 4 SENATOR VOLKER: Essentially what 5 this bill would do would be to provide a 6 mechanism, a simpler mechanism to allow an 7 attorney who represented a defendant in an 8 assigned case to collect his fee if the person 9 obviously is financially able to -- to afford to 10 do that. 11 Presently, I gather what happens 12 is, in many places -- I say "many places" 13 because I assume from what I know where they do 14 collect these, and particularly in places in 15 upstate New York, the judges just order the 16 defendants to go do it, but I presume in New 17 York City and other places where the judges 18 generally don't even try to collect fees, there 19 has been more of a problem because the attorney 20 then has to go back into court and go through 21 the normal process to obtain the fees that he is 22 due, even when, as I say, it's obvious that the 23 person has the money -- now has the money to pay 2789 1 for his defense. 2 What this bill does is really 3 simplify the process so that you can use the 4 same statute, which is under 722 (d), to -- to 5 get enforcement, and you would do that in the 6 same manner as other money judgments are 7 obtained under CPLR 2222. 8 This does not change, as I 9 understand it, something that we have already 10 passed which says that if the person is able to 11 pay for his defense, that he should do it -- he 12 or she -- but what it does is give a better 13 mechanism to be able to collect that judgment, 14 that money, should it be found that there is a 15 person who has the money to do it. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Abate. 18 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, Mr. 19 President. Would Senator Volker yield to - 20 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly. 21 SENATOR ABATE: -- a number of 22 questions. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2790 1 Senator yields. 2 SENATOR ABATE: I appreciate the 3 intent of the bill, but I do not understand its 4 application. 5 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. 6 SENATOR ABATE: There are two 7 issues: One is the existing law does not allow 8 for summary judgment, and this puts, in effect, 9 that if the court, after a fact finding 10 procedure, finds the defendant is able to pay, 11 there can be a judgment where a party can then 12 move against that individual to collect the 13 money, is that correct? 14 SENATOR VOLKER: That's correct. 15 SENATOR ABATE: Now, in the bill 16 -- and I guess my concerns are I'm not sure how 17 it will work -- they list the parties that could 18 collect. One is a public defender. 19 SENATOR VOLKER: M-m h-m-m. 20 SENATOR ABATE: In the case of a 21 public defender, you have a county attorney - 22 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. 23 SENATOR ABATE: -- who has the 2791 1 apparatus to pursue the collection. 2 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. 3 SENATOR ABATE: But if you have a 4 private legal aid bureau, or whereas in New York 5 City, where a Legal Aid Society represents most 6 of the indigent defendants in New York City, how 7 would they do this? They are now representing 8 the defendant - 9 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. 10 SENATOR ABATE: -- even 11 post-conviction. One arm of the Legal Aid 12 Society through the appeals bureau would have a 13 continuing relationship with that defendant. 14 How could they then collect that money? I mean, 15 doesn't that put them in an adversarial 16 position, and would they be able to keep the 17 money? 18 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, I think 19 the problem here is we know what's happening in 20 New York City. New York City doesn't want to 21 collect the money, and they don't want to be 22 bothered. The problem is the rest of the state, 23 generally speaking, is -- is -- where they find 2792 1 that there are defendants who can afford to pay 2 for their defense, most of the rest of the 3 state, in most cases, is attempting to collect 4 this money. In New York City, the judges, 5 frankly, don't want to be bothered. 6 What we're trying to do here is 7 -- I think the answer here is I don't see why, 8 under this bill, if the Legal Aid Society wants 9 to do it, that they can go ahead and get the 10 money, if it's available, and -- and use it. 11 There's nothing that says here that this money 12 has to go some place else that I'm aware of. I 13 would presume that they would be able to do it. 14 They'll probably feel 15 uncomfortable because the judges don't want to 16 do it in New York City. I mean, I guess the 17 answer is whether this bill, by the way, will 18 force them to do it any more. Frankly, I think 19 it's somewhat of an outrage that we have the 20 biggest city in the state with the biggest crime 21 problem, and we can't get the judiciary to act 22 in a way that could restore some of the money 23 that we pump into the court system, but be that 2793 1 as it may, as far as I can see, yeah, they would 2 be in a situation where, if they find -- if 3 there is a finding that this person can afford 4 his defense, then I would think they would be 5 able to, as part of the -- as part of the 6 action, they would be able to put in a -- try to 7 collect, and they would collect it in the normal 8 way that the county would do it to collect their 9 money. I don't see why not. 10 SENATOR ABATE: Mr. President, 11 would Senator Volker yield to another question? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Volker, do you continue to yield? 14 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Senator continues to yield. 17 SENATOR ABATE: But it's my 18 understanding that the Legal Aid Society should 19 not be assigned to a case if, in fact, the 20 defendant has an ability to pay for his defense 21 services. 22 SENATOR VOLKER: That's right. 23 SENATOR ABATE: So that should be 2794 1 a decision that's made initially at the time of 2 assignment. 3 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. 4 SENATOR ABATE: So that once the 5 Legal Aid Society is assigned to the case, there 6 is a statement - 7 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. 8 SENATOR ABATE: -- that 18-b - 9 because there's no conflict, 18-b would not be 10 assigned and the defendant would not be forced 11 to get his or her own attorney. 12 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. 13 SENATOR ABATE: So I guess my 14 concern is if, in fact, in the middle of a case 15 -- because there's an appeal ongoing -- the 16 judge decides there's some changed circumstances 17 because Legal Aid shouldn't have been assigned 18 to that case, does this law say that the Legal 19 Aid Society has to use its resources to try to 20 collect money from this defendant? Is this a 21 "may" or a "must"? 22 SENATOR VOLKER: No. I don't see 23 this -- as I understand it, this is enabling 2795 1 legislation. This permits. This doesn't say 2 that they have to. 3 Now, one of the -- by the way, 4 you bring up a point. If the Legal Aid Society 5 has a problem, they want more specific language, 6 I suppose we could do that, but that isn't what 7 really is the problem here. I know what the 8 problem is. The courts in New York City are 9 very uncomfortable with this sort of thing 10 because, as a matter of policy, they just do not 11 want to really enforce what -- what we have been 12 telling them to do, but I think the answer is, 13 no, no one is saying that this has to be done. 14 And, by the way, Senator, it's no 15 different to the Legal Aid Society than any 16 place else. Presumably when people are 17 assigned, the assumption is that they are not 18 able to get their own attorneys. What it - 19 where this would come in and where it's found 20 during the proceeding, or for some reason they 21 should come into some money or whatever reason, 22 they are able to pay. This doesn't mean you 23 have to do some huge investigation to find out, 2796 1 but if it is obvious for one reason or another, 2 and if it comes about that, for instance -- let 3 me give you a for instance of what sometimes 4 happens. 5 You have a case in court -- and 6 I've known this to happen -- where somebody is 7 in for a grand larceny or something, and during 8 the course of the case, the fellow gets his 9 assigned attorney. During the course of the 10 case, the evidence turns up the fact that the 11 guy has considerable money, wherever he got it 12 from -- it may be stolen, but wherever he got it 13 from, he has considerable money in a bank 14 account or whatever. Well, quite obviously, 15 this fellow would have the money to finance his 16 own attorney, but when he was initially -- the 17 attorney was initially assigned, that wasn't 18 known either to the attorney or to the county or 19 anybody else. So this would be a case where, 20 when a case is finally disposed of, that the 21 judge then would be able to -- with the 22 attorney's motion, to have the attorney 23 reimburse himself or get himself reimbursed for 2797 1 the normal costs of the case. 2 SENATOR ABATE: But -- would the 3 Senator yield to another question? 4 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6 Senator continues to yield. 7 SENATOR ABATE: I understand if 8 it's an 18-b case - 9 SENATOR VOLKER: M-m h-m-m. 10 SENATOR ABATE: -- which is a 11 fee-generating case, they go back to the state, 12 get reimbursed for their expenses. The Legal 13 Aid Society, however, cannot take on fee 14 generating cases. So I don't understand if they 15 were to pursue a collection process, how they 16 could ever retain that money, and that's why the 17 bill is confusing. I have not had an 18 opportunity to talk to the Legal Aid Society. I 19 just saw the bill for the fist time a moment 20 ago. 21 SENATOR VOLKER: I really have 22 never heard. It is a practical matter. I'm 23 afraid probably what will happen here is Legal 2798 1 Aid probably won't pursue it. 2 SENATOR ABATE: I don't think 3 they can collect the money legally. 4 SENATOR VOLKER: I'm not so sure 5 about that. I'm not so sure they can. By the 6 way, you make a good point. If the Legal Aid 7 Society is really interested in that, I would be 8 more than happy to -- to look into that. We're 9 mainly concerned with -- and there are cases 10 other than the Legal Aid Society, by the way - 11 where people have been assigned and where there 12 could be, as I say, some money returned or 13 received or accepted, whatever, and the 14 awkwardness of the law, personally, makes it 15 very difficult to do, and -- but I certainly - 16 I have no problem with looking into that issue. 17 Frankly, that issue has never come up, that I'm 18 aware of, but I will certainly look into it just 19 to make sure. 20 My guess is that the Legal Aid 21 Society probably really doesn't want to get into 22 it, and there's nothing that actually says that 23 they have to unless a judge, in effect, orders 2799 1 them to, I suppose, which would be very unlikely 2 since it almost never happens in New York City 3 anyways. 4 SENATOR ABATE: Senator, I would 5 appreciate if you could look, because I don't 6 know what the Legal Aid Society's position is. 7 One, could they even collect that? If they 8 failed to collect, what would be the 9 implications? 10 I would say that if the Legal Aid 11 Society were here, they might say that most of 12 the clients they do represent are indigent. To 13 go after them and have a needless process, it 14 goes back into some other coffers. Not only do 15 you have conflict issues, but you have some 16 other kinds of cumbersome financial issues, and 17 I'm afraid that this will be seen from budgeters 18 -- all due respect from people who have worked 19 in Budget -- budgeters is, "Oh, now, this is an 20 opportunity for people like the Legal Aid 21 Society to collect revenue", but it's really a 22 false revenue collection scheme and thereby will 23 reduce state revenues for these organizations. 2800 1 So I guess I -- I would like to 2 see what would be the real implication of that 3 law, the practical application of it. 4 SENATOR VOLKER: I understand. 5 Let me just say that in looking, I doubt that 6 this would have much of an impact at all on 7 Legal Aid. Remember, we're amending the County 8 Law here, and although the County Law, I guess 9 could be -- it would be a stretch to apply it 10 directly to -- to the New York City courts, I 11 think, but you brought up a good point here, and 12 that is that -- and although this could still 13 apply to New York City indirectly, but you make 14 a point that it's probably something we should 15 look at, not from the standpoint necessarily of 16 trying to collect money or anything like that. 17 If we really wanted to collect money, by the 18 way, you would try to make this mandatory, and I 19 don't know how you would do that. 20 SENATOR ABATE: Right. 21 SENATOR VOLKER: And I wouldn't 22 participate in that because I think that would 23 be a big mistake, but I do think that we have to 2801 1 find, wherever way we can, because there are 2 just a lot of judges who don't want to take the 3 time and get into this sort of thing when, in 4 reality, in all honesty, there are some people 5 with a lot of money that they find out during 6 the proceedings, and it seems totally unjust 7 that, not only does assigned attorneys and as 8 you know, the counties, whatever, have to suffer 9 the loss when there's somebody who can actually 10 afford it, but we'll certainly look into that. 11 In fact, I will -- we will even talk to the 12 Legal Aid Society and let them research it for 13 us, okay? 14 SENATOR ABATE: Okay. Thank you. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Leichter. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 18 President. If Senator Volker would yield. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Volker, do you yield to Senator Leichter? The 21 Senator yields. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 23 think you've left some inferences on the floor 2802 1 that judges in New York City are unwilling to 2 pursue this law, and so on, and I don't think 3 that's fair. I don't think it's correct, and 4 then later on in your discourse with Senator 5 Abate, you said you're not even sure that the 6 County Law applies to New York City. 7 SENATOR VOLKER: M-m h-m-m. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm not sure 9 it does either. So it may well be that this law 10 doesn't even apply to New York City. 11 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, let me 12 say, first of all, you may think my reference to 13 New York City is unfair, but I don't agree with 14 you at all. The rest of the state is dealing 15 with the issue of finding money, and I'm talking 16 specifically about this section that we're 17 amending now. It is very clear that New York 18 City, as well as the rest of the state, has been 19 given the power to collect money from people who 20 initially are thought to be indigent or, in 21 fact, from people who have committed crimes and 22 who have the money to pay for their defense. 23 The rest of the state, generally 2803 1 speaking -- not entirely, but generally speaking 2 -- has complied and has been collecting some of 3 that money. New York City -- and then we have 4 been told by some of the judges personally, 5 they're really not interested in that, because 6 they think most of the people are indigent. 7 Most of the people don't have any money, and 8 it's just not worth it for them to be bothered 9 with that. 10 Well, you know -- so I'm not 11 saying this -- I'm not critical of parts of the 12 system, except to say that it's pretty clear 13 this is going on, and I -- we know it. It's 14 been -- it's been something that we have been 15 asked, in fact, by some groups to make it 16 mandatory, and we have been balking at doing 17 that, but I'm not saying this without some, not 18 only knowledge, but the facts of the case. So I 19 know there is, you know, great sympathy for some 20 of these things, but I think the difficulty is 21 that the taxpayers, I think, are suffering in 22 the meantime. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 2804 1 if Senator Volker would continue to yield. 2 With all due respect, Senator 3 Volker, I must say I could not understand your 4 answer. Let me see if we can clarify this so 5 that I can understand it. 6 One, does the County Law apply to 7 the city of New York? 8 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator - 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes or no? 10 SENATOR VOLKER: The answer is it 11 could in certain cases, but I'm not sure it 12 would in this case. What I'm trying to say to 13 you, Senator, is she -- Senator Abate asked a 14 question about enforcement, and I'm telling you 15 that we will certainly be willing to clarify the 16 issue of application to the Legal Aid Society - 17 which, by the way, I doubt this would probably 18 apply to them, but what I was saying to you is I 19 do think, though, that this is to stimulate 20 action on the situation where a defendant, in a 21 case, turns out to have the money to pay for his 22 defense. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 2805 1 would Senator Volker continue to yield? 2 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Senator continues to yield. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, could 6 you tell us, do the judges in the city of New 7 York presently have the authority to charge 8 defendants who it is shown have the money - 9 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- and where 11 the defense was conducted at the public expense, 12 to have those defendants pay, and if they have 13 that authority, would you tell us under what 14 provision of the law, if you know. 15 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, the 16 provision of the law was passed some years ago. 17 I don't have it. The whole state now has the 18 authority, but the issue is that -- that it has 19 not been -- it has not been used in New York 20 City, to my knowledge, to any extent hardly at 21 all, where it has been used in the rest of the 22 state. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 2806 1 if Senator Volker would continue to yield. 2 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Are you then 4 saying there is a provision in law, other than 5 the County Law? 6 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: And you say 8 there is such a provision - 9 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- that 11 applies in the city of New York. Now, you also 12 say New York City judges have been unwilling to 13 apply that provision of the law. 14 Senator, isn't it a fact that the 15 judges do not, on their own motion, on their own 16 instigation, bring a proceeding to make a 17 defendant pay, that that has to be brought by a 18 prosecutor; it has to be brought -- somebody has 19 to bring the issue to the judge. 20 SENATOR VOLKER: No, that's not 21 -- the way it -- the judge is -- actually the 22 court can investigate. In fact, the court is 23 aware -- in a number of cases, they are made 2807 1 aware -- the court can actually order that the 2 money be paid over. There's no process that's 3 been set up in New York City where they do that, 4 but it can be done. There's no question it can 5 be done. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Excuse me. 7 Senator Volker, I have difficulty understanding 8 it. You're saying a judge, on his very own, can 9 order an investigation if he has reason to 10 believe or to think that a defendant who's being 11 defended at the public expense has the assets? 12 SENATOR VOLKER: Absolutely. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. Do you 14 know any instance or any case in New York City 15 where a judge, having that information, refused 16 to do something? 17 SENATOR VOLKER: The problem is 18 we don't have -- we have virtually no indication 19 that there has been any attempt to collect any 20 money. So, no, I don't really have any -- all I 21 know is that the rest of the state, in cases - 22 in defense cases, has been collecting some money 23 and as far as I know, there hasn't been 2808 1 virtually -- there hasn't been anything in New 2 York that I'm aware of. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 4 Volker, would you be good enough to continue to 5 yield? 6 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Could you tell 8 us how much has been collected in counties other 9 than New York City, whether by a year or two 10 years, five years? 11 SENATOR VOLKER: I can't. I'm 12 not -- I just know that -- and I'm not trying to 13 tell you that there s been a lot of money 14 collected, but I am telling you that -- I can 15 tell you that there has been money collected 16 but, to my knowledge, virtually nothing has been 17 collected in the City. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. Mr. 19 President, on the bill, please. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Leichter, on the bill. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: I have no 23 problem with the bill, but I think -- Senator, I 2809 1 think there was some gratuitous comments made 2 about judges in New York City and in New York 3 City generally which, frankly, I think were 4 unfounded and uncalled for, and one, you say 5 that judges in New York City have this power. 6 It apparently is not under the County Law, but 7 where there may be some instances where a judge 8 having some suspicions or reason to suspect that 9 a defendant may have some funds. Most of the 10 time judges don't know this. Somebody's got to 11 bring it to their attention. So it's up either 12 to the prosecutor or Legal Aid or whoever is 13 doing the defense, to call this to the judge's 14 attention. 15 Thirdly, this probably arises in 16 such a minutia of cases, and I can well 17 understand both the prosecutor or defense 18 counsel or the judge saying that the cost, on a 19 cost-effective basis, to now hold a hearing - 20 because, obviously, you can't just say, "You 21 have money. You've got to pay." You've got to 22 have a hearing. You've got to investigate. The 23 person's got a right to be defended at their 2810 1 hearing. 2 So I question, one, whether this 3 is really a very cost-effective method except in 4 maybe very minor cases. When I say "minor 5 cases", maybe one in 10,000, 100,000, maybe less 6 than that. That's why I think it was very 7 pertinent, Senator, to know from you how much 8 money has been collected outside of New York 9 City. I would suspect that it is fair -- a 10 very, very, very small amount and that what 11 we're talking about is not financially 12 significant at all, either to the counties or to 13 the state. 14 So I just regret the comments 15 about New York City judges, someone implying 16 that they're not doing the job that other judges 17 are doing throughout the state. I don't think 18 that's right. I don't think it's fair. I don't 19 think you have any facts or any information that 20 would show that. If you do, then that's 21 certainly something to call to the Office of 22 Court Administration, but I just think it's an 23 unnecessary comment that was made in regard to 2811 1 what is really just a technical bill. A judge, 2 instead of putting an order, he'll put in a 3 judgment, and that's fine, where the facts are 4 justified, but I think that New York City 5 judges, to my experience, work extremely hard. 6 They are as competent, they obey the laws of the 7 state of New York as much as judges in Erie 8 County or anywhere else, and we shouldn't make 9 these sort of comments. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 11 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill? 12 (There was no response.) 13 Hearing none, the Secretary will 14 read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect on the first day of 17 November. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll.) 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 22 the results when tabulated. Would those in the 23 negative please raise their hands one more 2812 1 time. Announce the results. 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 4 is passed. 5 The Secretary will continue to 6 call the controversial calendar. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 523, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 1092, an 9 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law and the 10 Social Services Law, in relation to withholding 11 social services rents. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Farley, an explanation of Calendar Number 523 15 has been asked for by Senator Paterson. 16 SENATOR FARLEY: Senator 17 Paterson. Senator, this is a bill that passed, 18 I think -- let me see. I'll give you the vote 19 on it last year. 20 SENATOR RATH: 54 to 5. 21 SENATOR FARLEY: 54 to 5. Thank 22 you. 23 It permits the option -- option 2813 1 of withholding social service rent payments to 2 landlords who are delinquent in the payment of 3 the real property taxes. 4 Now, currently under social 5 services law, landlords who have welfare 6 recipients as tenants receive the rental 7 payments directly from the county or Department 8 of Social Services. Problems have developed 9 when some of these same landlords are delinquent 10 in the payment of the real property taxes. 11 Specifically, some counties are actually sending 12 Department of Social Services checks to 13 landlords when these individuals are failing to 14 meet their obligations to pay their property 15 taxes. This bill would correct this inequity. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Paterson. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 19 much, Mr. President. 20 If Senator Farley would yield for 21 a question. 22 SENATOR FARLEY: Certainly. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2814 1 Senator yields. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, 3 earlier Senator Abate said to Senator Volker, "I 4 understand the intent, but I don't understand 5 the application." I think that would connote my 6 feelings about this particular bill. There 7 certainly would be an interest in recovering 8 back taxes from landlords who have been 9 delinquent and certainly to punish them for not 10 continuing to meet their obligations. 11 However, my chagrin about this 12 particular bill is that we wind up punishing the 13 tenants as well as the landlords and, although 14 the tenants are clients of social services, 15 other than any misfeasance on their part with 16 respect to social services, I don't see any 17 reason to unduly penalize them. 18 Would it not be correct that when 19 landlords realize that the social services 20 payment for rent will be withhold from them 21 pending the payment of back taxes, that they 22 would then exercise discretion in who they would 23 choose in the tenancy, creating what would in a 2815 1 sense be an economic veil, so that by not 2 renting to any clients of social services, they 3 could never be penalized for doing so? 4 SENATOR FARLEY: Okay. Let me 5 speak to you a little bit more of the bill 6 through which you may pick up the flavor and 7 like it a little bit better. Incidentally, the 8 city of New York is excluded from this 9 legislation. 10 Number two, this bill would 11 correct -- or create a new situation. Currently 12 under the bill, the social services - 13 Subdivision 2 of the Social Services Law gives 14 public welfare officials the power to withhold 15 rents to landlords if it is found that the 16 living conditions of the dwellings are not in 17 compliance with the building codes. 18 So, you know, to mention that 19 when you say you're punishing the -- the tenant, 20 they're not permitted to evict a tenant under 21 this legislation whose rents are being held, and 22 if the living conditions deteriorate, social 23 services also have action against the landlord. 2816 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Paterson. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Does the 4 legislation -- if the Senator would continue to 5 yield. 6 SENATOR FARLEY: Yep. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Does the 8 legislation include any other criteria that 9 would prevent the landlord from renewing the 10 lease when this has actually occurred? In other 11 words - 12 SENATOR FARLEY: I know what 13 you're -- I know what you're saying, that they 14 might not want to renew the lease. 15 Incidentally, as I said, it doesn't apply to the 16 city of New York, and the counties are very 17 supportive of this. I don't see anything in the 18 bill that talks about the lease. Nope. It just 19 says that they will not be able to evict them 20 and, of course, if they do anything to -- do 21 anything to deteriorate the living conditions. 22 My dear friend and supporter, 23 Senator Rath, when she was in the -- when she 2817 1 was in the county government, was very strong in 2 support of this bill, and I -- I would like to 3 almost yield to her who knows more about it than 4 I do, about the realities of this problem, 5 particularly in upstate New York. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Paterson. 8 SENATOR FARLEY: I was going to 9 yield my time. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 11 I yield to Senator Rath. 12 SENATOR RATH: Thank you, Senator 13 Farley, Senator Paterson. 14 Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Rath. 17 SENATOR RATH: There's a saying 18 in government/politics that what goes around 19 comes around, and the first time I was listening 20 to Senator Farley debate the bill on the floor, 21 I thought, This sounds so familiar, and as I had 22 looked at it earlier, I thought, I must read 23 this more carefully, and as we've talked about 2818 1 it since, it's something that we started in Erie 2 County about 12 years ago called Project 3 Intercept, and what we were doing was just 4 exactly what Senator Farley picked up on on the 5 state level, that we hoped in those days when I 6 was a county legislator, would be picked up on 7 the state level and, indeed, passed by both 8 houses and signed by the Governor, because we 9 had it up and running on a county level for 10 about a month, and in that time, we collected 11 between 4- and $500,000 of back taxes, which was 12 very, very welcome money to a county, to any 13 county who is -- all counties are always 14 strapped for dollars, but particularly back 15 taxes which is something that is owed, and we 16 found we couldn't carry it on any further 17 because there was not state law that made it 18 possible for us to carry forward with Project 19 Intercept, and so we alerted everyone we could 20 in state government and hoped that someone would 21 pick it up eventually, and I kind of almost 22 forgot about it, until I found that Senator 23 Farley was carrying my bill which I found my 2819 1 first year here in the chambers. 2 There were some issues that we 3 got into with the city of Buffalo, which were 4 rather interesting that might be of some 5 interest for a subsequent piece of legislation, 6 and it had to do with the conditions of the 7 housing, which we started to get into and 8 started to address but, again, we found we 9 couldn't carry it forward, but that was an 10 ancillary concern. 11 The real concern here was the 12 people who were not paying their taxes and who, 13 by the way, did not want their names published, 14 nor did not want TV cameras or newspapers 15 calling to find out why they hadn't paid their 16 back taxes, and frankly, there were some very 17 outstanding citizens who owned a lot of property 18 that they should have been paying taxes on long 19 since who came forward and just wrote out a 20 check so that they would not be embarrassed by 21 the fact they had not paid their county taxes on 22 these properties. 23 So for all the right reasons, I 2820 1 think that this is something we should move 2 forward with and hope that the Assembly will 3 carry forward with it also because it's a way 4 that we can get some dollars that should be in 5 the hands of the counties, back into the hands 6 of the counties without too much difficulty. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 8 me, Senator Rath. 9 Senator Onorato, why do you 10 rise? 11 SENATOR ONORATO: Yes. I would 12 like, whichever person would like, Senator Rath 13 or Senator Farley, to yield to a question on 14 this. 15 SENATOR RATH: Senator Farley. 16 SENATOR ONORATO: Senator - 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Onorato, excuse me just a second. Senator 19 Paterson did have the floor. I don't know if he 20 just yielded the floor -- he asked Senator 21 Farley a question to Senator Rath, in response 22 to asking a question -- or answering the 23 question or whether he yielded the floor 2821 1 entirely. So let me ask - 2 SENATOR FARLEY: If he prefers to 3 ask Senator Paterson a question - 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Farley, I'm not recognizing you, until I hear 6 Senator Paterson tell me whether or not he has 7 yielded the floor or not. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 9 I have been losing ground and floor ever since I 10 came to this chamber. A few more steps back 11 won't hurt. I yield everything to whoever would 12 like to speak at this time. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I thought 14 you were inspired two days ago when you won one, 15 Senator Paterson, but in any case, Senator 16 Onorato, Senator Rath yields. 17 SENATOR ONORATO: Thank you. 18 Senator - 19 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes, I'm paying 20 attention. 21 SENATOR ONORATO: -- my question 22 is this: I don't have too much problem with the 23 concept of the bill. My only concern is if the 2822 1 dwelling is inhabited by several -- three or 2 four people who are receiving social services 3 and their rents are then diverted to the county 4 for back taxes and there's no money left to pay 5 for heating of the unit or to pay for the common 6 ground electricity to keep a boiler running, how 7 will those bills be paid at such a time if the 8 landlord is not receiving this rent? Will the 9 town take it upon themselves to divert some of 10 that money to make sure that the domicile is to 11 remain habitable for the tenants? 12 SENATOR FARLEY: Social Services 13 already has -- has the power to -- to enforce 14 the habitability of the property, and let me 15 just say this: I think what you're saying is if 16 the tenant does not have the money to pay the 17 heat because they have taken the rent money -- I 18 mean, were they using the rent money to pay the 19 heat in your situation? I don't quite follow 20 what you're saying. 21 SENATOR ONORATO: What I'm asking 22 you is -- maybe for clarification -- if the 23 landlord is providing all of these services all 2823 1 along but is simply not paying his taxes, he's 2 delinquent. Okay. Now the operation of the 3 home is continuing. Now, you take the rent 4 money away from them, who is going to pay for 5 the fuel to keep the house warm - 6 SENATOR FARLEY: The landlord. 7 SENATOR ONORATO: -- and the 8 electricity? 9 SENATOR FARLEY: The landlord is 10 going to pay for it. 11 SENATOR ONORATO: How is he going 12 to pay for it if he doesn't have the rent? 13 SENATOR FARLEY: That's his 14 problem. That's his problem and duty as a 15 landlord. 16 Let me just say this, Senator 17 Onorato, on the bill, if I may. You know, my 18 experience in local government, particularly 19 landlords that have housing that is substandard, 20 if you will, they are very, very hard to get 21 their attention. They can totally ignore 22 government, elected officials, anybody getting 23 after them to be good citizens, but I'll tell 2824 1 you what. When you withhold the rent from them, 2 it really gets their attention, and then they 3 start doing such things as paying their taxes 4 and keeping their place in proper repair and a 5 few other things. 6 SENATOR ONORATO: Wouldn't it 7 perhaps be a little bit more equitable then, if 8 you're going to withhold rent, withhold all 9 rent, whether it's from a party receiving social 10 services benefits or a regular tenant living in 11 the building. Why do you make a distinction 12 between someone receiving social services, and 13 the person who's making the social services may 14 be, in fact, paying the rent to the landlord. 15 So where is the distinction? 16 SENATOR FARLEY: The distinction 17 is this: The county is paying the rent to that 18 landlord, in essence, through social services. 19 The county is the one that is getting burned, if 20 you will, by the landlord not paying the taxes. 21 So the county consequently has -- is able to 22 reach in and stop this rent from going to the 23 landlord who's delinquent in his taxes. In the 2825 1 situation where there is a non-social services 2 person, we have no right to withhold their 3 rent. The rent doesn't go through us, speaking 4 from the county's point of view. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6 Secretary will read the last section. 7 Excuse me. Senator Paterson. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 9 it would be all right if I come back. 10 If Senator Farley would please 11 yield for a couple more questions. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Farley, do you yield? 14 SENATOR FARLEY: Certainly. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Senator yields. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, what 18 about the cases where social services is leaving 19 it up to the tenant to pay the rent, where 20 there's monies provided and then the tenant pays 21 from the resources that Social Security provides 22 -- I mean, social services provides? 23 SENATOR FARLEY: Well, I'm not 2826 1 just sure -- could social services -- could you 2 answer that? We have a county executive here - 3 or at least a member of the county government, I 4 think that knows the answer to that better than 5 I. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Rath. 8 SENATOR RATH: My recollection is 9 that these are vouchered payments that are - 10 that are coming through the county system and 11 are very easy to pick through and get those for 12 the delinquent property owners. It's not - 13 it's not the ones that are sent directly to the 14 clients. It's the ones that are vouchered. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Paterson. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, 18 that's exactly what I want to know. Where the 19 payment is not direct, where there is some sort 20 of a voucher and the social service agency is 21 leaving it up to the tenant to - 22 SENATOR RATH: This law, in my 23 recollection of it -- and I have not -- I was 2827 1 just about to start through the big book on it 2 -- my recollection is that these are vouchered 3 payments. These are vouchered rent payments 4 that actually have to be picked up at one office 5 of the county by the sheriff's department and 6 carried over to the tax/finance office of the 7 county. It's -- it was clear that we got into 8 trouble with this in the county because of 9 living standards actually, which is -- what I 10 think was really what Senator Onorato's question 11 was and why we couldn't work it through with the 12 city of Buffalo as we proceeded into it, because 13 we could not go into that level of discussion 14 because these were vouchered. These were on the 15 voucher system. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 17 if Senator Rath would yield. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Paterson. 20 SENATOR RATH: Sure. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Rath, 22 then, therefore, it doesn't apply to those 23 tenants who make the payments themselves who are 2828 1 being provided the money from social services. 2 It only applies to - 3 SENATOR RATH: I think Senator 4 Farley is more familiar with the specifics of 5 the way it was written at the state. Mine is a 6 county recollection. 7 SENATOR FARLEY: It's my 8 understanding -- and this is not my area of 9 expertise. It's my understanding that different 10 counties have different ways of doing it. Some 11 pay the tenant directly and some pay the 12 landlord. This is an optional bill with 13 counties. I would presume that counties that 14 give the money to the tenant would not opt into 15 this -- would not care to opt into this 16 legislation, but a county that pays the landlord 17 directly -- and it varies from county to county, 18 I am told -- would be willing. This came from 19 Fulton County. It was a request of one of my 20 counties, and some counties are very interested 21 in participating in this legislation. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Paterson. 2829 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 2 would the firm of Rath and Farley yield for one 3 last question? 4 SENATOR FARLEY: One last 5 question. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The firm 7 yields. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: In the 9 situation that existed in Erie County where 10 $400,000 was recovered over a period of time and 11 then it was advised that state legislation would 12 have to occur for this process to continue 13 further, do you have any record or any 14 information that the withholding of the rent 15 created a chilling effect such that clients of 16 social services experienced discrimination as 17 they sought housing in that area? 18 SENATOR RATH: Senator Padavan, 19 inasmuch as we - 20 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm Senator 21 Paterson. 22 SENATOR RATH: Paterson - 23 inasmuch as we actually had this up and running 2830 1 in Erie County, I can tell you that the people 2 who were living in the housing that had not been 3 -- the rent had not -- or the taxes had not 4 been taken care of were delighted that we were 5 getting the owners brought up and brought in so 6 that they would pay their taxes, because then 7 maybe they would feel responsible for some of 8 the other things that were not correct in the 9 housing and, no, there was no chilling effect on 10 any of the social service clients who lived in 11 the housing. They were, frankly, glad because 12 they didn't like those landlords anyway, because 13 these were landlords who were not paying their 14 county property taxes for all that period of 15 time. There were a lot of other things that 16 weren't happening to their property and, again, 17 this was where we got into it with the city of 18 Buffalo because they immediately wanted to get 19 some of the dollars withheld so that we could 20 push on the standards level of the housing 21 which, as I said, was an ancillary issue, and 22 had we gotten through this much of it, then we 23 could have gone to the next part of it and 2831 1 worked it out with the comptroller in the city 2 of Buffalo who was then a councilman. He's now 3 the comptroller in the city of Buffalo, but 4 you're right on the right track but, no, there 5 was no chilling effect. People were delighted. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Paterson. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 9 much, Mr. President, and thank the Senators for 10 their kind answers to the questions, and let me 11 make this very clear on the bill. 12 We are particularly delighted as 13 well that this attempt is being made to force 14 individuals who aren't paying their taxes to pay 15 their taxes because, as Senator Rath points out, 16 there probably is some association between their 17 non-compliance with tax regulations and also 18 their failure to provide very important services 19 to their tenants, and this probably encourages 20 greater responsibility. 21 I would just like to caution all 22 the members here that I would assume that a 23 landlord that has already become delinquent on 2832 1 taxes is somewhat aware of those processes that 2 would be used to, in effect, try to enforce the 3 payment of such funds, and that by not renting 4 to clients on social services, this avoids the 5 problem entirely. As I said earlier, it sets up 6 kind of an economic veil in which the local 7 government, the county, cannot attack the 8 landlord because the private tenants are not 9 involved in the situation. Therefore, the 10 regular tenant is favored over the social 11 service tenant because the social service tenant 12 has, with their renting, a kind of a device by 13 which the government can move against the 14 landlord for non-payment of taxes. 15 It's a good idea and it's a good 16 system. I just want to make sure that 17 individuals who the state has determined that we 18 want to protect by providing them with these 19 services are not discriminated against as they 20 seek housing in these areas. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 Secretary will read the - 23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 2833 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Gold. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Would Senator 4 Farley yield to just - 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Farley, do you yield to a question? 7 SENATOR FARLEY: Certainly. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Senator yields. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, maybe 11 it's been said but I just want to clarify it for 12 myself. Assuming the money is paid for the 13 taxes, it doesn't come to the tenant, is there 14 anything built into this which gives the tenant 15 a defense in a non-payment action against the 16 landlord; is that covered? I know last year 17 there was a memo and we had that concern, and I 18 voted against it last year. I'm not so sure I 19 want to do that this year. I would like to be 20 able to support it. 21 SENATOR FARLEY: I don't fully 22 understand your question. Is there any 23 defense - 2834 1 SENATOR GOLD: In other words, 2 does the -- the rent now comes to the tenant. 3 The tenant pays the landlord. Under your 4 bill - 5 SENATOR FARLEY: Wait a second. 6 No, it's vouchered. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Under your bill - 8 Senator -- Senator -- Senator, under your bill 9 -- under your bill, the money is just never 10 going to reach the landlord's hand, am I 11 correct? 12 SENATOR FARLEY: Senator Gold, 13 counties pay in different ways. Different 14 counties choose different ways. Some pay the 15 tenant directly. Some pay the landlord. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, that's 17 not my problem. What I'm trying to say to you 18 is that what your bill will do is so the money 19 will not go to the landlord, it goes to pay the 20 taxes, am I correct? 21 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes. 22 SENATOR GOLD: That's the point 23 of it. 2835 1 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Now, the landlord 3 brings a non-payment action against the tenant. 4 I just want to know whether you've made any 5 provision that the tenant has a defense for 6 non-payment. That is all I'm asking you. I'm 7 not saying that your idea is a bad one. I'm 8 just saying that there ought to be a defense for 9 the tenant, and that was in last year's memo in 10 opposition which I -- if it's covered, then I'm 11 comfortable. I just want to - 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lines 15 and 13 16. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Your counsel is 15 telling me it's lines 15 and 16. 16 SENATOR FARLEY: That's not in 17 the bill -- wait a second. 18 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Your 19 counsel, one of the brightest people I've met, 20 Senator Leichter, points out on page 1, 15 and 21 16. You feel that covers it, Senator? 22 All right. I want to thank you 23 and your counsel. I appreciate the answer. 2836 1 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, 2 Senator Leichter. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Abate, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR FARLEY: I'm deeply in 6 your debt. 7 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. Mr. 8 President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Why do 10 you rise? 11 SENATOR ABATE: Would Senator 12 Farley yield to a question? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Farley, do you yield to Senator Abate? 15 SENATOR FARLEY: I certainly 16 will. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 Senator yields. 19 SENATOR ABATE: Thank you, 20 Senator. 21 I'm concerned about the interplay 22 of this proposed legislation, and Section 143 23 (b) of the Spiegel Act -- Senator, are you aware 2837 1 of that? I can tell you. Let me -- I just 2 learned about the Spiegel Act. Apparently that 3 gives the authority to local social services 4 commissioners -- okay. I can just -- let me 5 just tell you exactly what it says. It says it 6 gives local social services commissioners the 7 authority to withhold shelter payments that 8 would normally go directly to the landlord. 9 Instead of those shelter payments going to the 10 landlord, they go to cure building and 11 maintenance code violations. Its ability -- if 12 there is a building that's not safe and the 13 landlord has been cited for a number of, either 14 fire violations, the social services 15 commissioner can be directed - 16 SENATOR FARLEY: Is that the city 17 of New York? 18 SENATOR ABATE: I think that's 19 statewide. I believe it's statewide. I'm not 20 familiar with this. This was brought to my 21 attention. 22 So I guess the question is how 23 would this work? There's only one pool of 2838 1 money. We would now be competing against the 2 social services commissioner's ability to take 3 those -- and we're dealing with the same 4 population. We're dealing with tenants on 5 public assistance. My concern is would this 6 legislation -- would this affect the ability of 7 the social services commissioner to divert 8 needed monies to make buildings habitable? 9 SENATOR FARLEY: Well, I don't 10 think so because, to be honest with you, I'm not 11 familiar with what your -- what is this called? 12 SENATOR ABATE: It is - 13 SENATOR FARLEY: It's kind of 14 noisy in here. You're going to have to speak 15 up. There's some sort of a demonstration going 16 on. 17 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. It is 18 Section 143 (b) of the Social Services Law and 19 it's called the Spiegel Act, and what it is is 20 just withholding shelter payments that would 21 normally go to public assistance recipients, the 22 very recipients that you discuss in your bill, 23 and instead of it going to the landlord, it goes 2839 1 to remedy defects in the building. So what 2 we'll have here is -- if your legislation 3 passes, this will be somewhat in conflict. 4 SENATOR FARLEY: I guess it is 5 the same pool but, again, the city of New York 6 is exempted under this bill of mine. 7 SENATOR ABATE: Right. But what 8 impact would that have with tenants around the 9 state? There certainly are landlords - 10 SENATOR FARLEY: I think it would 11 be going right out of the same pool. Once the 12 taxes are paid, I would presume that -- you 13 know, Social Services works very close with the 14 county. It's one of the -- it's probably the 15 greatest expenditure that the county has, and 16 they're very gravely concerned with non-payment 17 of taxes, and once they get the tax money, I 18 don't know which one would take priority, but 19 that's up to the county government. I think 20 that they would -- but I would presume that - 21 your point is well taken -- it is coming out of 22 the same pool of money. 23 SENATOR ABATE: Would you 2840 1 consider - 2 SENATOR FARLEY: Which I think is 3 worthwhile. 4 SENATOR ABATE: Would the Senator 5 yield to another question? 6 SENATOR FARLEY: Certainly. 7 SENATOR ABATE: Would you 8 consider looking into this issue because, if a 9 building has some egregious building and fire 10 code violation, shouldn't the first order of the 11 day be to use those dollars to remedy - 12 SENATOR FARLEY: No question. 13 SENATOR ABATE: But the bill is 14 silent on this issue, and perhaps you can look 15 at if there are two needs, the county maybe 16 should give preference, if it is a question of 17 health and safety, to compliance with the 18 Spiegel Act. 19 SENATOR FARLEY: Okay. Without 20 this legislation, Social Services -- Social 21 Services gives the public welfare officials the 22 power to withhold rents to landlords that they 23 found that the living conditions are not in 2841 1 compliance with the code. They already have 2 that. They don't have the power now to withhold 3 the rent if the taxes are not paid. 4 SENATOR ABATE: Well, I think 5 this is an issue. I think this is another 6 withholding mechanism, and I think it's worthy 7 of looking at how they interface with each 8 other. 9 No further questions. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Secretary will read the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 13 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Gold to explain his vote. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, just very 21 briefly. Senator Farley -- Senator Farley, I 22 want you to know that I am changing my vote this 23 year. I voted no last year and I'm going to 2842 1 vote for it, and I'm going to vote for it 2 because you had the guts today to say something 3 that I have been waiting to hear a Republican 4 say in this house for 25 years, and that is that 5 sometimes the only way you can get a landlord's 6 attention is by withholding rent. 7 The Tenants Associations of the 8 city of New York have been trying to convince 9 your party of that for the 25 years I'm here. 10 So, perhaps next time when we have these issues 11 where we talk about the rights of tenants in the 12 city of New York, I can quote the law according 13 to Farley and we'll get your support. 14 I vote yes. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 16 the results. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Leichter, to explain his vote. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 21 President. I want to explain why I'm going to 22 vote against this bill, and I understand there's 23 some rationale for trying to get to the counties 2843 1 money that is due in taxes, but I think you have 2 two problems with the bill. 3 One is that you are impairing a 4 tenant's defense or tenant's mechanism of trying 5 to get a landlord to provide services by seeing 6 that that rent money is paid directly to the 7 county, because it -- maybe there's been a 8 violation of the warranty of habitability and 9 the tenant is actually entitled to get some of 10 that rent money because the tenant has had to 11 pay, for instance, for fuel to heat the 12 building, but the real problem -- that's a 13 technical objection, but the real problem is 14 that a building of this sort, you probably have 15 a landlord that's in difficulty. Either he's 16 extremely callous or more likely he's in 17 financial difficulty, and he's going to need 18 that rent money to provide service. 19 Now, the money is going to the 20 county. That's important to some extent, but it 21 may well mean that he's not going to be able to 22 pay for fuel, that you're then going to have 23 tenants that have no services. The county is 2844 1 then going to be burdened of taking over the 2 services in the building, and so on. So that 3 while there's a logical basis for this bill, I 4 think, as a practical matter, it doesn't work. 5 I'm going to vote in the 6 negative. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 8 the results. 9 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 10 the negative on Calendar Number 523 are Senators 11 Abate, Connor, Lachman, Markowitz, Stavisky. 12 Ayes 51 -- also, Senator Montgomery and Senator 13 Paterson. Ayes 50, nays 7. Also, Senator 14 Smith. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 16 the results. 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49, nays 8. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 Senator Skelos. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you take 22 up Calendar Number 447, by Senator Saland. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2845 1 Secretary will read. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 447, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 5104-A, an 4 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law, 5 in relation to the composition of the Hudson 6 River Valley Greenway. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Secretary will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect on the 30th day. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 Senator Skelos, that completes 18 the controversial calendar. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there any 20 housekeeping at the desk? 21 On behalf of Senator Nozzolio, on 22 page number 36, I offer the following amendments 23 to Calendar Number 591, Senate Print Number 6596 2846 1 and ask that it retain its place on the Third 2 Reading Calendar. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 amendments to Calendar Number 591 are received 5 and accepted. The bill will retain its place on 6 the Third Reading Calendar. 7 Senator Bruno. 8 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 9 there being no further business to come before 10 the Senate, I move that we stand adjourned in 11 the memory of Louis Pataki, the father of the 12 Governor, George Pataki, of New York State, 13 until tomorrow at 11:00 a.m. 14 Thank you. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 16 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until 17 tomorrow at 11:00 a.m. in the memory of the 18 Governor's father, Louis Pataki. 19 (Whereupon, at 4:13 p.m., the 20 Senate adjourned.) 21 22 23