Thursday, March 28, 1996

2847 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 March 28, 1996 10 11:01 a.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 SENATOR MICHAEL J. HOBLOCK, Acting President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 2848 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 3 Senate will come to order. 4 I ask everyone to rise and 5 repeat with me the Pledge of Allegiance. 6 (The assemblage repeated the 7 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 8 In the absence of clergy, may we 9 bow our heads in a moment of silence. 10 (A moment of silence was 11 observed.) 12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 13 Reading of the Journal. 14 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 15 Wednesday, March 27th, the Senate met pursuant 16 to adjournment. The Journal of Tuesday, March 17 26th, was read and approved. On motion, Senate 18 adjourned. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 20 Without objection, the Journal stands approved 21 as read. 22 Presentation of petitions. 23 Messages from the Assembly. 2849 1 Messages from the Governor. 2 Reports of standing committees. 3 Reports of select committees. 4 Communications and reports from 5 state officers. 6 Motions and resolutions. 7 Senator Bruno, we have a 8 substitution to make. 9 SENATOR BRUNO: Please make the 10 substitution, Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 12 Clerk will read. 13 THE SECRETARY: On page 6, 14 Senator DeFrancisco moves to discharge from the 15 Committee on Corporations Assembly Bill Number 16 8800 and substitute it for the identical 17 Calendar Number 598. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 19 Without objection, the substitution is approved. 20 Senator Bruno, are you ready 21 for the calendar? 22 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 23 President. Can we at this time take up the 2850 1 noncontroversial calendar. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 3 Secretary will read. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 129, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 1847A, an 6 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in 7 relation to providing an exemption for capital 8 construction costs. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 10 Read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 14 Call the roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll.) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 18 bill is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 243, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 2614, an 21 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 22 providing and maintaining alarms and an early 23 warning system. 2851 1 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 2 Read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 6 Call the roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll.) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 10 bill is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 244, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 3561, an 13 act to amend the Family Court Act, in relation 14 to expanding the jurisdiction of the family 15 court to enforce the compulsory attendance law. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 17 Read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 21 Call the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31. 2852 1 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 2 bill is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 388, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 466A, an 5 act to amend the Social Services Law, in 6 relation to access to the statewide register of 7 child abuse and maltreatment. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 9 Read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 13 Call the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 17 bill is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 390, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 2138, an 20 act to amend the Social Services Law and the 21 Education Law in relation to authorizing the 22 fingerprinting of prospective employees. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it 2853 1 aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Lay 3 the bill aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 465, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 1372, an 6 act to amend the Town Law, in relation to 7 exemption from the spending limits of fire 8 districts. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 10 the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect on the first day of 13 January. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 15 the roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 19 bill is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 469, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate 22 Print 3553, an act in relation to permitting the 23 establishment of the Town of Champlain Sewer 2854 1 Benefit Area No. 1. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 3 Home rule message is at the desk. 4 Read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 9. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 8 the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 12 bill is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 471, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 3736, an 15 act to amend the General Municipal Law, in 16 relation to creating the Town of Southampton 17 Community Development Agency. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 19 Home rule message is at the desk. 20 Read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 2855 1 the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 5 bill is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 475, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 5900, an 8 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in 9 relation to allowing municipalities to extend 10 the redemption period for repayment of 11 delinquent property taxes. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 13 Read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 17 Call the roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll.) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 32. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 21 bill is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 476, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 5903A, an 2856 1 act to amend the Local Finance Law, in relation 2 to temporary alternative methods of financing 3 snow and ice removal. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 5 the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 9 Call the roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll.) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 32. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 13 bill is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 489, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 5544, an 16 act to amend the Business Corporation Law, in 17 relation to the right of housing cooperatives to 18 impose fees. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 20 Read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 2857 1 Call the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 32. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 5 bill is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 520, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 6112, an 8 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law, 9 in relation to the Central Pine Barrens 10 comprehensive land use plan. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 12 Read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 16 Call the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 32. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 20 bill is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 527, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 3740A, an 23 act authorizing an advisory nonbinding referen 2858 1 dum in the towns of East Hampton, Riverhead, 2 Shelter Island, Southampton and Southold in the 3 county of Suffolk. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 5 Read the last section. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it 7 aside. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Lay 9 it aside? Lay the bill aside. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 528, by Senator Marcellino - 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it 13 aside. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Lay 15 the bill aside. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 590, by Senator Skelos - 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it 19 aside. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Lay 21 the bill aside. 22 Senator Skelos, that completes 23 the noncontroversial reading of the Calendar. 2859 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Please take up 2 the controversial calendar. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 4 Secretary will read. 5 THE SECRETARY: On page 24, 6 Calendar Number 390, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate 7 Print 2138, an act to amend the Social Services 8 Law and the Education Law, in relation to 9 authorizing the fingerprinting of prospective 10 employees. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 12 Explanation asked for by Senator Paterson. 13 Senator Nozzolio. 14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 15 Mr. President. My colleagues, the measure 16 before us authorizing fingerprinting of 17 prospective employees of school districts and 18 screening them is a measure that is long 19 overdue. It provides the same type of screening 20 potential for the upstate school districts that 21 the city of New York and their school districts 22 now have before them. 23 What we're asking the school 2860 1 districts to have is the ability to check 2 criminal backgrounds of prospective teachers and 3 other school district personnel. This 4 information is vital when making such an 5 important decision as who will be working day in 6 and day out with the young people of our state 7 in our school systems. 8 As I mentioned, it's a 9 protection, it's an ability that the 10 superintendents and administrators of New York 11 City school districts already have and we're 12 trying to simply put that same type of 13 opportunity, that same potential for review 14 within those school districts outside the city 15 of New York. 16 The measure is one that I'm very 17 sad has to take place, but I have seen 18 personally the devastation that hiring an 19 individual with a criminal record can do to a 20 community. I have seen that in my own 21 Senatorial District where an individual had a 22 criminal record and that record was further 23 exacerbated by criminal conduct as a teacher, 2861 1 conduct that could have been prevented, injury 2 to students that could have been prevented if 3 the school district had opportunity to review 4 this individual's background. 5 That is exactly what my measure 6 does, Mr. President, and I urge its passage very 7 swiftly. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you 9 very much. 10 Mr. President, if Senator 11 Nozzolio would kindly yield for a question? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 13 Senator Nozzolio, do you yield? 14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, of 15 course, I would be glad to yield to my 16 distinguished colleague, but before I do, I 17 would just like to add one thing, if I may, Mr. 18 Paterson. 19 This measure passed this house 20 last year 57 to 2. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 22 Thank you. Senator Nozzolio yields. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, 2862 1 Senator, I thought you would like to try to go 2 for a shutout, and that's why I have a question 3 that's specifically on that point. 4 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. 5 President, I can't hear. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 7 Excuse me, Senator Paterson. Can we have a 8 little order in the house, please? 9 Thank you. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: The desire 11 that Senator Nozzolio stated and the objective 12 of this bill is very clear, and as he pointed 13 out, it's sad that it has to get to this point, 14 but perhaps it does and, therefore, Senator, I 15 just want to ask you, what about teachers who 16 are already working prior to the passage of this 17 bill, would there be any kind of provision to 18 check the criminal records of individuals who 19 already are employed in the school districts? 20 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: It would be 21 up to the board of education in each individual 22 district to decide how they were going to screen 23 their personnel. This is meant to establish at 2863 1 the threshold background investigation during 2 the application process, but there is nothing, 3 in my opinion, that would preclude the district, 4 if it so desired, from looking at a more 5 comprehensive access to the information. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Very good, 7 Senator. If the Senator would continue to 8 yield. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Do 10 you continue to yield, Senator Nozzolio? 11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr. 12 President. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: The use of 14 the term "criminal record", does this apply to 15 criminal convictions? Is it arrests? I'm 16 interested in what may have been false 17 accusations. I don't have a problem at all, in 18 fact, I endorse the concept of wanting to know a 19 criminal history where an individual has been 20 convicted, but what about someone who's been 21 charged; and in addition to that, what about any 22 other offenses that might exist that might not 23 relate to the care of children? 2864 1 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: If I may, in 2 response to that, Senator Paterson, your last 3 question whether the measure would only deal 4 with new employees or also extend to existing 5 employees, I wish to correct a statement I made 6 to you earlier. 7 Section 39, it's page 2, lines 8 25 through 30 of the bill, suggests very clearly 9 that it would be the screening of all personnel 10 to be employed by the school district, so that 11 we're looking at prospective employees, not 12 current employees, and I wish to correct the 13 statement I made to you earlier. 14 In response to your current question, 15 could you please restate that? I'm not sure if 16 I picked it all up. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Let me try 18 by posing two questions: The first question is, 19 give me the definition of a criminal second. 20 I'm interested in whether we're talking about 21 convictions or accusations. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 23 Excuse me, Senator Paterson. 2865 1 Can we get some order in the 2 house, please? We can't hear. 3 Okay, Senator Paterson. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 5 My question, Senator Nozzolio, 6 would be can you define for me the meaning of 7 the term "criminal record"? Are we talking 8 about convictions or are we talking about 9 criminal charges? In other words, I see a 10 distinction between an individual who's been 11 convicted for a crime and somebody who may have 12 been arrested and that's why their fingerprints 13 would show up, because they were arrested. 14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: The bill 15 itself provides school districts access to this 16 information, Senator, the state Central Registry 17 of Child Abuse and Maltreatment and the records 18 of the FBI. So, if those records indicate 19 certain conduct or certain behavior or certain 20 activity, the information obtained in those 21 records would be what would be available to 22 school districts as it is now available to those 23 districts in New York City; and FBI records, I 2866 1 think, would include not just those convictions, 2 but also arrests and fingerprint records, as 3 well. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 5 President, if Senator Nozzolio would continue to 6 yield. 7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr. 8 President. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, you 10 are not interested in the information that would 11 demonstrate conduct as opposed to the 12 information that would demonstrate accusation? 13 In other words, if a person actually has a 14 criminal record, I think if they are going to be 15 working around small children as you so very 16 well pointed out earlier, that it would be very 17 beneficial for the school districts to have this 18 information; but, since there is at least a 19 presumption of innocence in our society and many 20 people have been arrested and not convicted and 21 not -- it was not proven, whatever the charges 22 actually were, don't you think that it creates a 23 stigma for the individual who is arrested as if 2867 1 the person was convicted of a crime when they 2 start to seek employment in a school system? 3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Let me answer 4 that question, Senator, in a couple of ways: 5 First, we're trying to end the double standard 6 that exists today between the efforts to look 7 into the criminal backgrounds of teachers who 8 seek to teach in the New York City system versus 9 those who seek to teach and work outside the New 10 York City system. 11 The New York City system now 12 allows access to this information, the 13 information that is precisely prescribed by the 14 language before us today. Why should New York 15 City administrators have the right to check into 16 this background, yet administrators from all 17 across the state do not have that opportunity? 18 Let me state, in answer to your 19 question, it another way: Criminal background 20 checks don't necessarily have to get into just 21 the issue of conviction. As a matter of fact, 22 one convicted of a certain crime, certainly 23 that's important to know, but it is also 2868 1 important to know if one was arrested for a 2 certain crime and then pled to another crime, 3 particularly when you're dealing with children. 4 And let me illustrate the point, Senator, by 5 discussing an individual who may have been 6 arrested and a case built against them for child 7 abuse, child mistreatment or child sexual 8 attack, a sexual attack against a child. 9 Someone arrested for that type of activity may 10 plead to another offense for a variety of 11 reasons; yet, certainly, I would believe that 12 you and everyone else in this room, when dealing 13 -- entrusted with the responsibility of hiring 14 somebody to deal with a child on a day-to-day 15 basis, would certainly want to know that 16 information as to whether or not an individual 17 had put themselves in a circumstance to be so 18 arrested. Would that person be a reasonable 19 risk when brought into a school district and 20 entrusted with the responsibility of dealing 21 with children on a day-to-day basis, eight-hour, 22 nine-hour, ten-hour day basis. 23 That's exactly what happened in a 2869 1 town in my district. An individual was arrested 2 and apprehended for a child sexual attack, pled 3 guilty to another lesser included offense for 4 the sake of a plea bargain and wound up teaching 5 in this school district, in a few years, 6 continued that sexual misbehavior, attacked 7 children and, in effect, devastated their lives 8 when, in fact, if the school district knew about 9 that prior conduct, could have taken the 10 opportunity to screen and err on the side of 11 safety. 12 I don't believe that we are 13 trying to establish onerous responsibility, 14 onerous types of criteria in this legislation; 15 rather, we are trying to simply end the double 16 standard that exists today in checking criminal 17 background and ensure that those administrators 18 are erring on the side of safety and have all 19 the information necessary; in effect, Senator 20 Paterson, if the administrator wanted to hire an 21 individual after seeing that arrest record, that 22 would be a decision by the administrator and by 23 the school board, but at the very least, they 2870 1 would have at their disposal the information 2 necessary to make a learned decision. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you 4 very much, Senator. You gave a very good 5 example, but it is not distinguished from the 6 point that I'm raising. If a person was 7 arrested and pled to a lesser charge, that's a 8 conviction, and that conviction, even though the 9 charge may be less, I agree with you that we 10 should know everything about the case. So, in 11 other words, they pled to a lesser charge, that 12 was a plea bargaining arrangement, it's quite 13 possible they were actually guilty of the 14 original crime that they were charged for, and I 15 think it would be extremely important, as you 16 pointed out, to have that information, so I 17 agree with you 100 Percent. 18 Where I also agree with you is I 19 don't think that there should be an incon 20 sistent standard between New York City and the 21 rest of the state. So, therefore, the fact that 22 you have introduced this bill actually raises 23 the question of review of the standard that may 2871 1 exist in New York City's school system, so I 2 agree with you there, as well. 3 If I might ask you to yield for 4 another question. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 6 Senator Nozzolio, do you yield? 7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly, 8 Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 10 Senator Paterson. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: What I'm 12 talking about, Senator, is an arrest that did 13 not lead to a conviction, an accusation that was 14 not substantiated, and I'm not trying to protect 15 anybody who is potentially harmful to students 16 in our school system, what I'm trying to do is 17 to protect people who have been accused of doing 18 a lot of things they didn't do, quite often 19 through ulterior motives of the accusing party. 20 And I'm saying the fact that this information is 21 now on their record does not mean that they're 22 guilty, doesn't mean they did anything, but it 23 does mean that a lot of people who may not be in 2872 1 a position to weigh that information, not what 2 you're talking about, not convictions or 3 pleading to a lesser charge, I'm talking about 4 the specific cases where the person wasn't 5 convicted of anything, where the complaining 6 witness may have even withdrawn the charge, and 7 I'm saying to have individuals who run school 8 districts be able to examine that evidence and 9 perhaps damage the reputations of the 10 individuals involved is something that I have a 11 little bit of a problem with. And so what I'm 12 asking you is, is that in existence in this 13 bill? In other words, would a person who was 14 merely arrested and not convicted of anything, 15 would that information still be made available 16 to the school districts? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 18 Senator Nozzolio, can I interrupt you a minute, 19 please? 20 Can we show a little respect and 21 courtesy to our colleagues, please, as they 22 debate this bill? It's getting a little noisy 23 and people are having problems hearing. 2873 1 Thank you. 2 Senator Nozzolio. 3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 4 Mr. President. 5 Senator, this information is 6 available to the school personnel who are 7 reviewing applicants for hire. It is 8 information that we're making accessible to 9 them. It is information that is readily 10 accessible to other employers. If the same 11 individual was seeking a job with the state of 12 New York, that individual would have a criminal 13 background check against them appropriate to the 14 responsibility, and we're saying if the 15 information is available for somebody who seeks 16 to be a bureaucrat, why should that information 17 be available on someone who seeks to be working 18 with children day in and day out. 19 It is not openly accessible, 20 it's only accessible for the specific purpose of 21 a background check for hire and that, I think, 22 is distinguished, Senator, based on the fact 23 that it is certainly used for a specific 2874 1 purpose. 2 And on the arrest, David, if I 3 may, you have -- for those circumstances that 4 appear unrelated or irrelevant to an 5 individual's character or conduct, the school 6 district has the opportunity to make a judgment 7 that that information has not precluded a good 8 candidate from receiving employment. So, there 9 is no discretion taken away from the school 10 district; on the contrary, we're empowering the 11 school district with the opportunity to have 12 this information before it makes a decision. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you 14 very much, Senator. The answers were very 15 responsive. 16 Mr. President, on the bill. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 18 Senator Paterson, on the bill. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 20 Nozzolio is right, if there is one area that we 21 probably need an even greater protection, it's 22 individuals who work around young children. I 23 have read statistics that run as high as that 2875 1 one out of every five small children is in some 2 way sexually abused by the time they reach 18. 3 Some of the statistics are startling. 4 As a society, we have often, in 5 many ways, ignored these types of problems, as 6 we have with other issues, and are finally 7 getting to this in our discussion here today and 8 through Senator Nozzolio's bill. 9 All I was trying to point out, 10 Mr. President, is that sometimes we just have to 11 remember that this is America. Now, if this 12 were Bosnia, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to 13 look at everybody's record, but what I thought 14 distinguished this country and what I thought 15 made our system of jurisprudence superior to all 16 of the other democracies in the world is that we 17 are careful about protecting individual freedom 18 and that we do have a standard that separates 19 what would be conviction from accusation. We 20 have a presumption of innocence. And, if there 21 was any kind of a guilty plea to anything, that 22 changes the game and, in my opinion, we're 23 entitled to know everything about the 2876 1 individual. Even if they pleaded to a lesser 2 charge, we're entitled to know what the original 3 charge was. 4 I just have a concern about 5 individuals who are accused of crimes and may 6 have been nowhere in the vicinity but because 7 they were arrested and fingerprinted, it now 8 haunts them and acts as a stigma every place 9 they go and a whole lot of people who may be 10 frightened by the mere association with the 11 criminal justice system, would deny them 12 employment when, in fact, they have done 13 absolutely nothing wrong. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 15 Senator Lachman. 16 SENATOR LACHMAN: Yes, Mr. 17 President, I would like to explain my position 18 on Calendar 390. First, I want to express my 19 appreciation to Senator Paterson for his 20 viewpoint. I greatly respect his position and 21 his reservations which are my reservations, as 22 well. 23 However, when one is in a 2877 1 position of authority, and one is in loco 2 parenti to children, there are other positions 3 and other values that come into focus, and it's 4 very difficult at times to choose between two 5 different sets of values that you believe in. 6 As a former president of the New 7 York Board of Education, I face the reality of 8 this problem and I come down in support of 9 Senator Nozzolio's position and that is how I'm 10 going to vote. 11 The rights and responsibilities 12 of adults are very important to me, but the 13 rights and responsibilities and security of 14 children are at least equally important to me; 15 and if, for example, we're to have security 16 guards in a particular school, we have to make 17 certain that these security guards will, in 18 fact, be protecting children and not doing 19 anything else in regard to these children. 20 There have been cases in school 21 districts which did not have such legislation 22 where problems have occurred. 23 So, in a very difficult vote and 2878 1 a difficult decision, I vote yes, I will be 2 voting yes on the Nozzolio bill. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 4 Secretary will read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 6 act shall take effect September 1. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 8 Call the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 12 bill is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 527 by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 3740A, an 15 act authorizing an advisory, nonbinding referen 16 dum in the Towns of East Hampton, Riverhead, 17 Shelter Island, Southampton and Southold in 18 Suffolk County. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 21 Senator LaValle, an explanation had been asked 22 for by Senator Paterson. 23 SENATOR LAVALLE: Thank you, 2879 1 Mr. President. 2 This legislation that would 3 begin a process that would lead to the creation 4 of Peconic County is somewhat different from 5 legislation that we have debated and passed on 6 at least two other occasions in this house. The 7 amended bill, 3740A, simply allows for a 8 referendum, advisory referendum in the five 9 eastern towns, those towns being Riverhead, 10 Southold, Shelter Island, Southampton, and East 11 Hampton. 12 As we have discussed in prior 13 debates and as delineated in the bill, that the 14 legislature, under Section 2 of Article IX of 15 the state Constitution, is charged with the 16 responsibility for the creation of all local 17 governments in New York State. We have found, 18 while there are procedures, uniform procedures 19 enacted for the creation of villages and towns 20 and cities, there is no procedure existing for 21 the creation of a new county. 22 New counties have been enacted 23 during the history of New York State by special 2880 1 acts of the legislature. We are embarking - 2 and I might say this body, through its budget, 3 enacted an appropriation of $50,000 that was 4 matched by the local towns, and that $100,000 5 was spent on a financial feasibility study on 6 whether Peconic County is indeed feasible for 7 the five eastern towns. 8 There were hearings and 9 meetings, both public and private, that involved 10 policymakers from the county of Suffolk and from 11 the five eastern towns. 12 I just want to, for part of the 13 record -- for the record, just read a little 14 piece that goes to the essence of why this 15 debate for more than 30 years has become so 16 important to the people of the East End, and in 17 the foreword of the report, "Peconic County, 18 Financial Feasibility Study," it says, "East End 19 and West End towns have developed into different 20 entities. The two parts of Suffolk County are 21 different in terms of land use issues, sources 22 of commerce, tourism, second home ownership, 23 population growth, land and resource 2881 1 conservation and other elements. These 2 fundamental, socioeconomic and quality of life 3 issues are manifested in fundamental differences 4 in philosophy of county government between the 5 citizens of the East End and western towns," and 6 it goes on. 7 The last thing is a quote from 8 the presiding officer of the Suffolk County 9 legislature and he said: "The interests of the 10 East End are substantially different from the 11 West End." 12 And so this legislation would 13 begin, actually, a process locally that takes 14 from the feasibility study, and the people have 15 both participated, have seen newspaper stories. 16 When you talk about 100,000 17 people in the East End, you talk about the issue 18 of Peconic County, and I can tell you, it is 19 indeed a burning issue and that people are tuned 20 into what is happening both in the public forum 21 and the media. And so that part has already 22 taken place, the feasibility study. 23 Now what we're saying is that 2882 1 the people should let us know, let us in the 2 state know what is their judgment in the 3 creation of Peconic County. If the people, in 4 the November election, vote that they would like 5 the creation of Peconic County, then I and 6 Assemblyman Thiele, who is the Assemblyman, and 7 Assemblywoman Acampora, will be back to this 8 legislative body asking for further authori 9 zation for the creation, by a special act of the 10 legislature, the creation of Peconic County. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 12 Senator Paterson. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 14 Mr. President. 15 If my colleague would yield for 16 a question. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 18 Senator LaValle, would you yield? 19 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, I 20 would, Senator. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 22 Senator yields. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 2883 1 Lavalle, In the feasibility study, was there a 2 discussion of what the economic cost would be to 3 add a whole new layer of government to, in a 4 sense -- rather than coalescing resources, I 5 would imagine this legislation would create more 6 government because you would have two separate 7 counties, Peconic and what's left of Suffolk 8 County. 9 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, that 10 is indeed a very good question, and indeed they 11 did look at that. In the feasibility study, I 12 would -- and I will quote, we just talked 13 about-- I'm going to answer your question in two 14 parts. The first deals with tax issues for 15 Peconic County, and it shows that the citizens 16 of the East End towns paid Suffolk 26.4 million 17 in property taxes in 1993, or 13.8 million more 18 than what they would have paid Peconic County in 19 its first year of operation, assumed to be 1996. 20 As part of the breakdown, it 21 does assume that there are some functions that, 22 because they would have to be duplicated in 23 Peconic County, would cost Peconic County some 2884 1 money. 2 On the other hand, Senator, the 3 people of Peconic County have argued that there 4 is too much government in Suffolk County and 5 that the budget that was enacted and the model 6 that the study was based on shows that there are 7 far fewer services that would be part of Peconic 8 County's budget. 9 So, while there is some cost 10 that they actually put into the study on 11 duplication, overall, there are reduced 12 salaries, reduced services in Peconic County, 13 reduced insurance and indemnity costs, 14 elimination of any east to west subsidy, and a 15 restructuring of the debt payments; and all this 16 accounts for a lower real property tax payment 17 by the creation of Peconic County for the East 18 End. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 20 Mr. President. I just have one other question, 21 if Senator LaValle would yield. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 23 Senator LaValle, do you continue to yield? 2885 1 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, I would, 2 Senator Paterson. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 4 To your knowledge, what is the 5 feeling of the other towns, not the eastern five 6 towns, but the other parts of Suffolk County, 7 how do they feel about this creation of a new 8 county? 9 SENATOR LAVALLE: That's a very 10 -- I don't think there's a definitive answer to 11 that, Senator, but I would say to you that I 12 personally live in the part of the First 13 Senatorial District in the Town of Brookhaven, 14 which is to the west and is the largest of the 15 towns in the county of Suffolk, and I have found 16 within Brookhaven town that there is support for 17 this kind of effort because the people 18 understand that the East End, the five eastern 19 towns, is far different and that, as a matter of 20 fact, Senator, and it's discussed in the report, 21 the East End provides all the open-space land, 22 the farm land, the second home opportunities for 23 people that use them as recreation homes. And 2886 1 so, maintaining that quality of life on Long 2 Island is very, very important and many people 3 feel, as I do, that one of the best mechanisms 4 to do that is to empower the people who live 5 there to maintain that quality of life, not only 6 as I had talked about its resources -- we passed 7 a bill here preserving the pine barrens and that 8 was an effort that again was initiated by East 9 End people because it was important to maintain 10 a quality of life not only for the East End, but 11 for all of Long Island. And you know, Senator, 12 all of Long Island supported that initiative 13 because it's important to maintain the last 14 vestige of what Long Island is all about and 15 that's the East End of Long Island. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 17 Senator. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lachman. 19 SENATOR LACHMAN: Mr. 20 President, would the Senator yield? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 22 Senator LaValle, would you yield? 23 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, 2887 1 Senator. 2 SENATOR LACHMAN: In a few 3 days, Senator, my children will be asking 4 me,"Why is this night different from all other 5 nights?" 6 My question to you, Senator 7 LaValle, is why is this county different from 8 all other counties in the state of New York? I 9 come from the largest county in the state of New 10 York, the county of Brooklyn, Kings County, and 11 some of the explanations that you have offered 12 could also be offered for Brooklyn. Brooklyn 13 would be the second largest city in the United 14 States, the first in New York State. There are 15 people who say there's a north Brooklyn and a 16 south Brooklyn, and economically, geographic 17 ally, ethically and racially, there are 18 differences, but we in Brooklyn believe that the 19 way of handling such a situation is not 20 separating north from south Brooklyn, but 21 working together and delivering services to all 22 areas and making the entire county economically 23 viable. 2888 1 I guess my question to the 2 distinguished Senator is what criteria do we 3 have here that can apply statewide to all other 4 similar situations? If they cannot, then I 5 would just have to say that this is not a good 6 precedent for the state of New York. 7 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, I 8 think that's a fair question, and one of the 9 things I talked about in my opening remarks is 10 that while we, under the Constitution, under 11 Section 2 of Article IX, create local 12 subdivisions and we have uniform procedures, the 13 creation of towns and villages and cities, we 14 have no one uniform procedure for the creation 15 of a county. And yet we, as a legislature, have 16 created counties by special acts; and so we are 17 enacting a procedure, the best one we know how, 18 which is to at the earliest stages, to involve 19 the people by referendum, to ask them. 20 But, to go back to the basic 21 question that you asked about why is this 22 different, and if we just take Brooklyn and its 23 role in New York City, we find that Peconic 2889 1 County, while it represents eight percent of the 2 people and 30 percent of the land mass in 3 Suffolk County, can never, never, never, in its 4 governance structure, have any impact in an 5 18-member county legislature, it has two 6 representatives to the county legislature. And 7 so whatever it wants in terms of a change, it 8 can never receive because their two county 9 legislators could vote either no or yes and 10 never really make a difference. 11 And so, the philosophy -- while 12 there is some homogeneity within New York City, 13 the five eastern towns are so different from the 14 five western towns because it has as its basis 15 of economic development, it's agrarian, it's 16 farms, it's fishing, it's tourism, it's second 17 home ownership for those who use it, their 18 second home, for recreation. That is the basic 19 economy of the East End. It is more rooted and 20 grounded in historic customs and traditions. 21 Families have passed down these traditions in 22 it. 23 The local newspapers are replete 2890 1 with stories of people who, this generation, 2 have been handed through multiple generations 3 the opportunity to farm or fish and there are 4 names that historically are very, very rich in 5 the Long Island history of the East End. 6 So, it's very, very different; 7 but it's the governance, it goes to governance 8 and whether the people of the five eastern towns 9 could ever affect or change their life. 10 The question that Senator Paterson 11 asked me on cost, people of the East End believe 12 that there's too much government, too much 13 government. They can never effect that change 14 in Suffolk County government. They can never 15 say, "We want to change our taxes," or, "We 16 don't believe in certain programs." They can 17 never do that because they don't have the 18 representation to do it. It's the difference 19 that I think makes this a unique -- and I know 20 most every member -- we all talk about how our 21 Senate districts are unique and different, but 22 here, I think, the report, the feasibility 23 studies, show with empirical evidence, the 2891 1 uniqueness of what they are trying to accomplish 2 and how they can do it in a more efficient and 3 effective way. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 5 Senator Dollinger. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Will 7 Senator LaValle yield to a question? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 9 Senator Dollinger, do you yield? 10 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, I do. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, 12 does this bill have a home rule message from 13 Suffolk County itself? 14 SENATOR LAVALLE: No, Senator. 15 This bill, a home rule message was not requested 16 on this bill; and to the best of my knowledge, 17 and I checked with my Assembly sponsor, but even 18 the Assembly on this bill have not asked for a 19 home rule message. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 21 through you, Mr. President, if Senator LaValle 22 would continue to yield? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 2892 1 Senator LaValle, do you continue to yield? 2 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: At some 4 point, do you anticipate that if this nonbinding 5 referendum were passed, much like we have 6 experienced in Staten Island, that at some point 7 there would be a need for a home rule message 8 from the county in which this political change 9 will occur, and I guess my question is, do you 10 anticipate that happening, that there would be 11 -- at some point, we would get from Suffolk 12 County a home rule message? 13 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, as 14 you see the bill before you is an "A" print, is 15 an amended version. The bill 3740 that existed 16 was a much broader and comprehensive bill than 17 the one before us. We have debated that bill 18 that would have set into motion the process for 19 the creation of a new county based on the fact 20 that this legislature constitutionally, under 21 Section 2, Article IX of the Constitution, can 22 create special acts by a special act of the 23 legislature, a county. The home rule counsel in 2893 1 this house has felt that that is a broad and 2 statewide scope and has not requested a home 3 rule message. That approach has been different 4 on the broader bill in the other house. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 6 President, if Senator LaValle would continue to 7 yield? 8 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 10 SENATOR LAVALLE: , do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, I would. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would the 13 voting eligibility in this referendum be the 14 same as it would be in a general election? 15 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, it 16 would. It specifically talks about consistent 17 with the -- it would be conducted by the Board 18 of Elections in a manner provided in the 19 Election Law and provisions of such law, so that 20 the answer is yes. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay, so it 22 would be based on domicile, and those who have 23 resort homes or second homes wouldn't 2894 1 necessarily be eligible to vote? 2 SENATOR LAVALLE: That is 3 correct, unless that is their principal place 4 that they have declared principal residence. And 5 by the way, Senator, I have many such people 6 that probably spend more time -- and I just see 7 my colleague, Senator Leichter -- probably spend 8 more time in Senator Leichter's district or 9 Senator Goodman's district, but actually vote in 10 the First Senatorial District. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the 12 bill, Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 14 Senator Dollinger, on the bill. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think 16 Senator LaValle makes a very persuasive argument 17 for creating a new county in the eastern portion 18 of Suffolk County. 19 I come from a county that has 20 the same heterogeneous character that might 21 exist in Suffolk County. We have a large urban 22 area, we have inner-ring suburbs that have many 23 of the same types of urban problems, we have a 2895 1 completely suburban eastern portion of Monroe 2 County, and we have a largely rural western 3 portion of Monroe County, and it seems to me, 4 while I'm going to vote in favor of this bill 5 because I'm willing to let the people of these 6 towns be heard, but I don't want my vote to be 7 interpreted as agreeing to the concept that we 8 would create a new government on the eastern 9 portion of Suffolk County, or necessarily 10 acknowledging my affirmance to the notion that 11 counties created 100 years ago, 200 years ago, 12 political subdivisions, all of which, if we were 13 planning them today for the first time, we might 14 redesign them to create the kind of eastern, 15 perhaps suburban portion of Monroe County and 16 calling it Pittsford and take the west side and 17 call it Hamlin, the side that's represented by 18 Senator Maziarz, the eastern side, represented 19 by Senator Alesi, and the center portion, 20 represented by me in the 54th Senate District. 21 Any time we sit down and begin 22 to draw the lines of new levels of government, 23 we can accentuate the differences between 2896 1 people, we can accentuate the differences 2 between communities. My personal experience is 3 that over time, even those differences change in 4 changing contours in the higher mobility of our 5 population and what might look like a whole 6 separate and distinct community today will 7 really not be that 50 years from now, much as 8 it's changed in the last 100 years or 200 years. 9 So, I'm prepared to let the 10 people in these towns participate in the 11 nonbinding referendum; but much as we have had 12 this discussion on Staten Island with Senator 13 Marchi, I'm not at this point prepared to create 14 new levels of government when what I think we 15 should be doing is creating smaller ones. We 16 may have that debate some day, we'll see what 17 this referendum produces, but at least for this 18 Senator, I'm going to reserve judgment on the 19 larger issue and the more philosophical issue of 20 whether we should be creating an entire new 21 county in this state. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 23 Senator Marchi. 2897 1 SENATOR MARCHI: I certainly 2 approve of the spirit that Senator Dollinger 3 brings to this, he is receptive and open to the 4 expression of feeling in those counties, but we 5 do have a very serious effort on the part of 6 Senator LaValle to develop all of the premises 7 that are required for viability. If they're not 8 viable -- I know that the argument came up about 9 Kings County. Kings County could not exist 10 alone; Bronx County couldn't; Queens probably 11 could; Manhattan, they could all ride around in 12 Cadillacs with chauffeurs, I guess, because the 13 bulk of the wealth is there. Staten Island 14 produces a net surplus of revenue and has the 15 viability. That argument would not be enough. 16 We were visited with the 17 principle of one man, one vote to transcend 18 political correctness at this point, and for 19 five years -- I had introduced a bill in 1983 20 but I didn't press it because I was trying to 21 keep the City together. It ended with an 22 adverse determination on the part of the Supreme 23 Court of the United States in which they stated 2898 1 that, not that they were against keeping the 2 City together, but that the one man, one vote 3 principle should obtain. Well, we're 400,000 4 people against 7 and a half million; we just 5 don't stand a chance. 6 Anyone who has had the 7 opportunity to read the New York Times 8 yesterday, and now they're offering as a revenue 9 raiser, visits by the tourist bureau to see a 10 garbage dump where they dump 16,000 tons of 11 garbage every single day, 365 days a year. 12 Now, I've heard arguments here, 13 minuscule arguments of a much lesser dimension. 14 There's no liner there. The water, the 15 subsurface water in the county of Richmond, if 16 it is ever redeemable, will be decades and 17 decades and perhaps centuries, the compromise 18 has been so thorough and complete. You cannot 19 drink it. It used to supply us with 50 percent 20 of the -- 50 percent of the potable water that 21 we consumed in that county. 22 We laid out a plan, it was 23 approved by both houses of the Legislature - 2899 1 and this is the problem that I would raise, this 2 is the dilemma that may eventually face Senator 3 LaValle. Speaker Weprin, Speaker Fink, Speaker 4 -- help me out -- Miller, Miller, all of them 5 respected the process by which we developed a 6 methodology and laws and step-by-step evolution 7 in the development of a charter and the rest of 8 it. 9 This has been done by Senator 10 LaValle, with their own resources, with their 11 own initiative, has observed all of the rules, 12 and I believe they should be given audience, 13 given the circumstances that they face. 14 Our circumstances are absolutely 15 terrible, terrible, not because the City is evil 16 or anything, but we just don't have the numbers 17 and that is partially the argument that Senator 18 LaValle has. He cannot insinuate, he cannot 19 develop that point of view which are peculiar 20 and particular to the areas that he represents. 21 Though it deserves a chance, it 22 deserves an opportunity to be heard. The only 23 thing I don't know, Senator, is there's no home 2900 1 rule requirement in the Assembly, but Speaker 2 Silver, as distinguished from prior Speakers, as 3 distinguished from Governor Mario Cuomo who said 4 that this process was eminently fair and was 5 well-grounded in decisions that flowed from the 6 Supreme Court, also the expressions of Governor 7 Pataki, that he's waiting to sign the bill, he 8 will not even let the bill out to be considered. 9 People can't hear the bill. They are not 10 permitted to vote on it. If he has powers of 11 suasion, maybe he could defeat it and that would 12 end it for all time. But, that is the problem 13 that Senator LaValle faces, that when the time 14 comes to make a final determination, something 15 will be thrown at him to prevent and impede 16 consideration by the Assembly of this issue. 17 My Assembly colleagues have 18 brought a lawsuit, I'm not sure that that is 19 appropriate because each house -- I mean, they 20 determine their own leadership and so there are 21 problems, but there's no question on the 22 question of the ethics of preventing a body that 23 is ready and willing to vote on a subject and 2901 1 then denying them that right and raising 2 subjects that have never been recognized by 3 three previous Speakers and two Governors. We're 4 talking about bipartisan judgment on the 5 operation of freedom and self-determination. 6 So, I would hope that this 7 effort and initiative by Senator LaValle 8 representing, as he does, and he has Assembly 9 sponsors, will be given an airing and an 10 opportunity. It's important enough. This isn't 11 fluff, this isn't something that -- this is 12 something vital that goes to the essence of 13 self-determination in those circumstances where 14 it is viable and also those circumstances -- we 15 were given a matrix that we had to come back to 16 the Legislature for final approval because it 17 might invoke some prejudice on the state as a 18 whole and I think that's what Senator Dollinger 19 was concerned about. 20 But we're ready to face these 21 things in the interest of giving voice to people 22 who are earnest, hard-working Americans and make 23 the same pretension to the principle of 2902 1 self-determination that Granada -- I don't know, 2 I counted something like 15 or 20 countries that 3 are recognized by the United Nations that don't 4 have half the population that we have and there 5 are probably nations that are smaller than the 6 little conglomerate that Senator LaValle has. 7 So, I would hope that in the 8 spirit of fairness and openness and availability 9 to suasion on a case that will have to be made 10 down the road to get its initial start by your 11 affirmative vote on this issue, which is so 12 important, not only to Senator LaValle, but to 13 the people in residence of those townships. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 15 Senator Leichter. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 17 President, would Senator LaValle yield, please? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 19 Excuse me, Senator Leichter. Senator Leichter, 20 excuse me a moment. 21 Senator Holland. 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: Would you 23 recognize Senator Stavisky for his vote on this 2903 1 bill, please? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 3 Senator Stavisky. 4 SENATOR STAVISKY: Would you 5 record me in the negative, please? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 7 the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 9 act shall take effect on the 180th day. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 11 Call the roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll.) 13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 14 Senator Stavisky. 15 SENATOR STAVISKY: In the 16 negative. 17 Without objection, Senator 18 Stavisky will be recorded in the negative. 19 Withdraw the roll call. 20 Senator Leichter. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 22 President, if Senator LaValle would yield. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 2904 1 Senator LaValle, do you yield? 2 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, as 4 I look at the structure of your bill and the 5 process that you set up, I assume you want to do 6 this in a democratic manner and you provide for 7 a referendum which, of course, you have to make 8 nonbinding, is that right? 9 SENATOR LAVALLE: That is 10 correct, that's what we say in the legislation. 11 That, of course, is a democratic process with 12 small "d", Senator. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, 14 Senator, that's really what concerns me and sort 15 of worries me, or at least one of the things 16 that worries me about this bill, and if you 17 would be good enough to yield. 18 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, sure. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Why not 20 allow the other people of Suffolk to vote on 21 this? You're now serving Suffolk by this 22 procedure, assuming that the five eastern towns 23 decide that they wish to set up their own 2905 1 county. How about the people of Babylon and the 2 people of Huntington? I mean, and Senator 3 Lack's constituents. 4 SENATOR LACK: I live in 5 Huntington, you named it, it's all right. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: I mean, 7 there's been a relationship that goes over 200 8 years. Now you're allowing a small portion of 9 Suffolk County, in effect, to decide by its self 10 to secede. Why is that democratic with a small 11 "d"? 12 SENATOR LAVALLE: Well, Senator, 13 as I had indicated before, this really is no 14 uniform procedure, but there is the part of the 15 county that seems to have different hopes and 16 aspirations about the way it wants to have a 17 government form. And this bill is no different 18 than the bills that we have debated and 19 discussed on prior occasions in this house and 20 that I, and I think Senator Marchi in the 21 referendum on Staten Island, have chosen a 22 methodology. 23 Now, someone else may come 2906 1 before this house and ask a special act be 2 formed to create a county in a different way. 3 This is the methodology that we chose because 4 for 30 years, 30 years, Senator, it's been 5 consistent in these five eastern towns that this 6 is what people have wanted. And if you want to 7 call it a rebellion or a difference, it's 8 because they view the way government and the 9 services that government should be performing 10 far differently from the people in the five 11 western towns. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator 13 LaValle would yield to just one more question. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 15 Senator LaValle, do you continue to yield? 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 17 take it as a given that the people of the 18 eastern end of Long Island wish to have their 19 own county, I take it as a given what the vote 20 will be of the nonbinding referendum, but when 21 you say we have a methodology, we set up a 22 methodology for Staten Island that, frankly, I 23 for one thought was wrong and many people in New 2907 1 York City said, "Listen, this is part of New 2 York City, this is, if you will, part of our 3 flesh and blood. If we're going to decide that 4 Staten Island is going to leave New York City, 5 then everybody in New York City has a right to 6 vote on it, not just the people of Staten 7 Island." So, I don't think that we've ever 8 established a methodology where there was 9 consensus that this is fair. 10 And since you talked about 11 democracy with a small "d" and appropriately so, 12 and I know that is a concern of yours, but how 13 can you have democracy when the people in the 14 western part of Suffolk County don't have a 15 voice as to whether they're going to lose part 16 of what has been an integral county for I guess 17 over 200 years. 18 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, I 19 just want to state more clearly, you know, 20 again, that there are no procedures that exist 21 for creation of a county and that I and 22 individuals who are involved chose this as a 23 methodology. Now -- and again, I say someone 2908 1 else might come before this house and do it in a 2 different way, might offer a different structure 3 in how it will create the county. So, I mean, 4 we can go back and forth, but this methodology 5 is no different than the two previous bills that 6 have come before the house and that was one, 7 that there would be a feasibility study; that 8 has been done. In part, it's been funded by 9 this body through its budget. Number two, we 10 are requesting, as we have in the past, that a 11 referendum be established as to whether, on the 12 basis of the feasibility study, people feel that 13 a Peconic County is viable, affordable and 14 doable for the people of the five eastern towns. 15 You know, the question was 16 asked, the question was asked about how other 17 people feel, and I can tell you that while the 18 town of Brookhaven, which is the largest of the 19 towns -- I mean, I think people are very 20 supportive of this kind of nature. I mean, I 21 don't have a specific poll, but I know that this 22 has been discussed for many, many years and I 23 think I have some understanding of how people 2909 1 feel. The town of Brookhaven have supported 2 this, because it would maintain for not only the 3 people of the East End, but people of Brookhaven 4 and Huntington and Smithtown and Islip and 5 Babylon, a place that they can go and recreate 6 and have within their county, a place that has a 7 quality of life that has been maintained, the 8 very reason that they moved to Long Island and 9 moved to Suffolk County. So, I think there is 10 that support there. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you 12 very much, Senator LaValle. 13 Mr. President, on the bill. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 15 Senator Leichter, on the bill. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: I mean, it's 17 clear to me that if we're going to go through 18 this process and if, as Senator LaValle says, he 19 wants a process with a small "d", that you must 20 let the entire county vote on whether part of it 21 should be severed. I think that's clear and 22 self-evident, and for Senator LaValle to say, 23 "Well, the people in Brookhaven like it," well 2910 1 fine, let them vote on it if they like it. I 2 mean, I think the fact that they're not being 3 asked to participate in the referendum I think 4 does speak to probably how the rest of, or the 5 western part of Suffolk County feels about being 6 served in this manner. 7 But I want to address something 8 a little different and maybe a more broader 9 point. You know, we function as a state with 62 10 counties. Now, if we were starting over all new 11 and Solomon came down here and did it or even if 12 we, in our not-so-perfect Solomon way, tried to 13 do it, we would certainly divide the state in a 14 different fashion. Maybe New York City wouldn't 15 be composed of the five boroughs, but I think 16 there is a value, there is an importance in 17 maintaining existing standards and existing ways 18 and traditions of governance, and I don't think 19 that we ought so lightly to go into this, "Well, 20 let's set up a new county, let's set up a new 21 town, let's set up a new city." I think that it 22 disrupts basic patterns of government. 23 Now, this is very popular. Let 2911 1 me tell you, if I put a bill in here, my 2 district, they want to be a separate city or we 3 should be a separate borough, everybody would 4 vote for it, and I'm sure that all of you could 5 think of parts of your district where people 6 would want to make changes. And particularly in 7 this time and age where everybody feels somewhat 8 remote from government, it's very seductive to 9 say, "Well, we're going to give you a new 10 status, we're going to change the governance and 11 you're going to be in charge of yourself. The 12 fact is that it's part of the nature of this 13 modern world that we live in that we all are 14 losing, to a large extent, some of the controls 15 that we used to have over our lives, over our 16 communities and to tell people,"Well, you're 17 going to recapture this because I'm going to set 18 up, make Staten Island its own city and I'm 19 going to make the East End of Suffolk County its 20 own county," I think in itself really doesn't 21 work. 22 I think the Staten Island 23 experience, I think has been, to my mind, a 2912 1 mistake; and let me say, it speaks volumes of 2 the extreme high regard that Senator Marchi is 3 held in, not only in this chamber but in this 4 Capitol and in the city, that the process has 5 gone that far. But, to a certain extent, 6 Senator Marchi was a fluke because I remember 7 when the bill first came up in this house, a 8 respected former leader who's no longer with us 9 came and said, "Let the bill pass because it's 10 never going to move in the Assembly." I voted 11 against it and I think I was the only vote in 12 this body against that bill. 13 Well, when it came up in the 14 Assembly and the belief was that the Speaker, 15 Speaker Miller, wouldn't allow it to come up, he 16 said, "Well, all right, we'll let it pass 17 because the Governor's going to veto it." And 18 as you know, it passed the Assembly and went 19 before the Governor and the Governor 20 said,"You're going to make me the fall guy for 21 this? I'm going to sign it," which he did, and 22 that's why we've gone into this process which I 23 don't think has been favorable for not only the 2913 1 city of New York, I don't think it's been 2 favorable for Staten Island. I think it has 3 held out expectations that are never going to be 4 realized, and similarly here. 5 I think all of us know that 6 well-intentioned and sincere as Senator LaValle 7 is, you're never going to sever Suffolk County, 8 it isn't going to happen. 9 So, what is the benefit, what is 10 the value of setting up this sort of a process 11 of riling up the people on the eastern end of 12 Suffolk County, of having the people on the 13 western end of Suffolk County excluded from the 14 process; and if it ever came to realization, it 15 would probably cause so much havoc because 16 people have developed a pattern of governing 17 themselves, of establishing relationships 18 between communities and to their government that 19 really relies very much upon Suffolk being one 20 county. 21 So, I just say that I think that 22 our effort really ought to be to bring people 23 together. This sort of thing divides people, 2914 1 divides the eastern end of Suffolk County from 2 the western end. Senator Marchi, you're 3 dividing Staten Island from the rest of New York 4 and you ought to be part of New York City. 5 You're a wonderful, important, significant part 6 of New York City and even though you have that 7 terrible landfill, let me tell you, my district, 8 I have a big sewage plant. You know, we could 9 say, "Well, we want to become our own community 10 and then get rid of the sewage plant." It 11 doesn't work. We are a whole. You can't sever 12 it, Senator, and let's not proceed in this -- I 13 know that Senator Maltese now has a bill to make 14 Queens its own city and there will be similar 15 such efforts. I think our job really as 16 representatives of the people of New York is to 17 bring everybody together and not to divide them, 18 which I think these bills do. I'm going to vote 19 in the negative. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 21 Senator DiCarlo. 22 SENATOR DiCARLO: Thank you, 23 Mr. President. I'm going to be very brief. I 2915 1 support Senator LaValle's bill because I believe 2 that the people of the East End have a right to 3 their own determination and how their form of 4 government is. 5 I also am a supporter of 6 secession for Staten Island and I object to 7 legislators -- and I have a lot of respect for 8 you, Senator Leichter, but to tell the people of 9 Staten Island that they don't know what they are 10 doing when they overwhelmingly supported 11 secession and years and years and years have 12 gone into study and work on secession and for 13 elected officials in Albany who really don't 14 know about Staten Island all that much to sit up 15 here and say, "Well, we're going to protect you 16 from yourselves," I object to that. 17 And Senator Leichter, if we 18 follow your logic and if during the time before 19 the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation, 20 you would have said to the white slave owners 21 who, if they outnumbered the slaves, "Well, you 22 know, give the white slave owners an equal vote 23 in this, let everyone vote on slavery," and if 2916 1 they outnumbered the slaves, you would have said 2 to them, under your logic, Senator, "Then let's 3 take a vote and let's let the slave owner have 4 an equal say with the slave on their freedom or 5 not." 6 So, I support not only secession 7 for Staten Island as a Brooklyn elected 8 official, but I also support Senator LaValle's 9 bill. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 11 Senator Abate. 12 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, Mr. 13 President. Would Senator LaValle yield to a 14 couple questions, points of clarification? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 16 Senator LaValle, do you yield? 17 SENATOR ABATE: Your head is 18 shaking up and down. 19 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. Yes, 20 sir. 21 SENATOR ABATE: Thank you, 22 Senator. Just to clarify a point you made, 23 what would be the legal import of this 2917 1 referendum? Let's say the referendum was 2 carried out and the voters of the five towns 3 sent a message that they wanted to secede from 4 Suffolk County and become its own identity, what 5 would happen after that? 6 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, I 7 think if you looked at the bill, and it talks 8 about advisory nonbinding referendum, the second 9 step, we would have to come back, and in the 10 bill it talks about very specifically that there 11 would have to be a second piece of legislation 12 brought before this body to be voted on which 13 would actually be the special act that would 14 create the county of Peconic. 15 SENATOR ABATE: So this is, in 16 effect, as you said -- I'm aware of the 17 language, but I want to understand what the 18 meaning is of that language. This, in essence, 19 would be a message sent to Suffolk County that 20 this is what these five towns want to do but 21 have no more message than that; and then, if 22 there's anything that's going to occur, Suffolk 23 County would have to be involved as a whole - 2918 1 SENATOR LAVALLE: No. 2 SENATOR ABATE: -- and be 3 involved in this determination. 4 SENATOR LAVALLE: No, no. I 5 mean, we would come back and ask that a special 6 -- by special act of this Legislature, that the 7 county of Peconic be created. 8 SENATOR ABATE: I see. So, I 9 mean, I'm sure you have every reason to believe 10 that the residents of the five towns would want 11 their own county because there must be some 12 benefit, financial benefit or other benefit that 13 would be afforded to them. 14 SENATOR LAVALLE: You know, 15 Senator, Senator Leichter said well, he could- 16 that this will pass and, you know, without a 17 doubt. 18 You know, part of the nature of 19 the East End is the great independence that they 20 have and I would say nothing is predictable. I 21 mean, it's the one place where we have and have 22 had, at one juncture, two independent parties, 23 the Southampton party, and the Southold party, 2919 1 running, electing supervisors in their 2 respective towns outside of the traditional 3 parties of Republican, Conservative and 4 Democratic parties. 5 So, I would make a strong 6 assumption that based on the feasibility study 7 and the number of hearings and meetings that 8 were held, that it would receive strong support, 9 but you never know, because of that independent 10 nature of the people of the East End. 11 SENATOR ABATE: Why is this 12 legislation necessary for a feasibility study to 13 occur or the five towns on their own to get a 14 sense of whether they would be in favor of such 15 a creation? 16 SENATOR LAVALLE: The 17 legislation that has been before this body for 18 many, many years and all the discussions were 19 that there would be a referendum to ask the 20 people whether a new county should be created 21 and that's why this step was included in the 22 process. 23 SENATOR ABATE: And so you 2920 1 interpret if we vote for this bill and support 2 the ability of them to decide what they wanted 3 to do, that does not mean we as a body take a 4 position that we favor a separate county of 5 Peconic. 6 SENATOR LAVALLE: No. I think - 7 SENATOR ABATE: Because many of 8 us feel that we're not in that position because 9 we need to be able to look at what would be the 10 negative impacts on the entire county of 11 Suffolk. There may be benefits to the five 12 towns and extraordinarily negative impacts to 13 the other areas and certainly their voices need 14 to be heard. I know there's dispute around 15 that, but I see this, and if you agree, Senator, 16 if this passes, this is not an indication from 17 this body that we support a creation of a new 18 county. 19 SENATOR LAVALLE: No, no, I 20 think the legislation and the language in the 21 legislation is very, very clear and very 22 specific about that, that we have to come back a 23 second time. That's why Senator Dollinger was 2921 1 very, very specific in his remarks when he said 2 he would support this legislation but would 3 withhold a final judgment if and when a bill 4 came before this body again to actually create 5 the Peconic County. 6 SENATOR ABATE: And just one last 7 question, if you would yield to another 8 question. 9 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. 10 SENATOR ABATE: The feasibility 11 study, did it look at the benefits and negative 12 impacts on the county as a whole? 13 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, it did. 14 It talked about the impact on Suffolk County 15 itself, Senator, and talked about the 16 contribution -- Peconic County would continue to 17 make a contribution of debt service for a set 18 period of time on the properties and the debt 19 that has been incurred on behalf of the East 20 End; it talks about the number of services and 21 so forth that would not be included in a Suffolk 22 County government so that that would be 23 downsized somewhat; and that the implications in 2922 1 Suffolk, while I don't have figures, I think are 2 about neutral for the county of Suffolk as a 3 whole, but it has a definite positive benefit 4 for the East End because of the government that 5 they create, a much smaller government on the 6 East End, which is what people have wanted there 7 for many, many years and the lower salaries that 8 people who would be employees would be 9 receiving, and so forth and so on. 10 So, while -- but I think you 11 have put it in a proper perspective. When you 12 have a referendum, there is no doubt that this 13 kind of issue is going to be debated within the 14 county as a whole and that people will be 15 looking probably in a more fine-tuned way, at 16 some of the implications on the five western 17 towns. 18 So the answer is yes, they did 19 look at the five western towns, but certainly 20 not in the depth that maybe some people would 21 have liked and maybe people could draw other 22 assumptions on a study that was broader in 23 scope. I don't know. I really don't know the 2923 1 answer to that. My sense is what the study 2 concludes is that the impact on the rest of 3 Suffolk really would be none to negligible. 4 SENATOR ABATE: On the bill. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 6 Senator Abate, on the bill. 7 SENATOR ABATE: I may be right 8 or wrong on this issue, but the way the issue 9 was just clarified, while I have enormous 10 reservations around the advisability of a new 11 county, while it may have beneficial impacts on 12 the five towns, it may have severe negative 13 impacts on the entire county, and I don't think 14 before decisions can be rendered can we over 15 look the impacts on the majority of the people 16 in Suffolk County and take that into 17 consideration. 18 My understanding of this bill, 19 though, is the opportunity for the five towns to 20 voice their opinion, no more and no less. So, in 21 that limited respect, I can support this 22 legislation with the understanding that on the 23 larger issue, the merits of creating a new 2924 1 county will be reserved for another debate. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 3 the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 5 act shall take effect on the 180th day. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 7 Call the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll.) 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 10 Results. 11 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded 12 in the negative on Calendar 527 are Senators 13 Connor, Kruger, Lachman, Lack, Leichter, 14 Paterson, Smith, Stavisky and Trunzo. 15 Ayes 46, nays 9. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 17 bill is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 528, by 19 Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 4294, an act to 20 amend the General Municipal Law, in relation to 21 establishing the town of Huntington Industrial 22 Development Agency. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 2925 1 home rule message is at the desk. 2 Read the last section. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 5 Explanation has been asked for. 6 Senator Marcellino. 7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, Mr. 8 President. This bill seeks to amend the General 9 Municipal Law adding a new section 907-D to 10 establish the town of Huntington, county of 11 Suffolk, Industrial Development Agency in the 12 county of Suffolk. It has been introduced at 13 the request of the Huntington Town Board and 14 represents an effort by the town of Huntington 15 to provide for itself the ability to effectively 16 plan for its future economic growth. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 18 the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll.) 2926 1 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 2 Announce the results. 3 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded 4 in the negative on Calendar 528 are Senators 5 Leichter and Stachowski. Ayes 53, nays 2. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Bill 7 is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 590, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 5362A, an 10 act to amend Chapter 704 of the Laws of 1991, 11 amending the Arts and Cultural Affairs Law and 12 Chapter 912 of the Laws of 1920. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 14 this legislation extends the provisions relating 15 to the licensing of ticket brokers until June 16 1st, 1997. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 18 Senator Paterson. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 20 President, the explanation was excellent. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 23 Senator Dollinger. 2927 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Do you know 2 if any of those ticket brokers have any tickets 3 for that event in East Rutherford this weekend 4 that I can get for cheap? 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Ask Senator 6 DeFrancisco. We are rooting for Syracuse. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Absolutely. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 9 the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 13 the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 17 bill is passed. 18 Senator Tully. 19 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 20 President. May we return to motions and 21 resolutions? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 23 Yes. Without objection, motions and 2928 1 resolutions. 2 SENATOR TULLY: On behalf of 3 Senator Saland, on page 39, I offer the 4 following amendments to Calendar Number 391, 5 Senate Print 2595, and ask that said bill retain 6 its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 8 Amendments are accepted. 9 Senator Skelos, that completes 10 the controversial reading of the calendar. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 12 is there any other housekeeping at the desk? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 14 There is none. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: On behalf of 16 Senator Bruno, I would like to announce that 17 there will be a Majority conference at 10:00 18 a.m. on Friday. 19 There being no further business, 20 I move we adjourn until Friday, March 29th, 1996 21 at 11:00 a.m. sharp. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 23 There will be a Majority conference at 10:00 2929 1 a.m., Friday, March 29th, and we will adjourn 2 until Friday, March 29th, at 11:00 a.m. sharp. 3 (Whereupon, at 12:34 p.m., the 4 Senate adjourned.) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23