Tuesday, April 2, 1996

3012 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 April 2, 1996 10 11:03 a.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 3013 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will 3 come to order. 4 Will everyone please rise and 5 join me in the Pledge of Allegiance. 6 (Whereupon, the Senate and those 7 present joined in the Pledge of Allegiance to 8 the Flag.) 9 May we bow our heads in a moment 10 of silence. 11 (Whereupon, there was a moment of 12 silence.) 13 The reading of the Journal, 14 please. 15 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 16 Monday, April 1. The Senate met pursuant to 17 adjournment. The Journal of Sunday, March 31, 18 was read and approved. On motion, Senate 19 adjourned. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Without 21 objection, the Journal stands approved as read. 22 Presentation of petitions. 23 Messages from the Assembly. 3014 1 Messages from the Governor. 2 Reports of standing committees. 3 Reports of select committees. 4 Communications and reports from 5 state officers. 6 Motions and resolutions. 7 Senator Marcellino. 8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, Madam 9 President. On page number 14, I offer the 10 following amendments to Senator Lack's bill, 11 Calendar Number 386, Senate Print Number 5954, 12 and ask that said bill retain its place on the 13 Third Reading Calendar. 14 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments 15 received. 16 Senator Skelos. 17 SENATOR SKELOS: Move that we 18 adopt the resolution calendar. 19 THE PRESIDENT: All those in 20 favor, signify by saying aye. 21 (Response of "Aye.") 22 Opposed, nay. 23 (There was no response.) 3015 1 Calendar is adopted. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam 3 President. At this time, I believe Senator 4 DeFrancisco has a privileged resolution. I ask 5 that you recognize him. 6 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 7 DeFrancisco. 8 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. Madam 9 President, I rise to speak on behalf of this 10 resolution, and it's pertaining to the Syracuse 11 Orangemen and their success in the tournament, 12 the NCAA tournament, including the Final Four, 13 and I request that just the title be read. 14 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 15 will read. 16 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 17 DeFrancisco, Legislative Resolution, honoring 18 the Syracuse University's Men's Varsity 19 Basketball Team and Coach Boeheim for their 20 outstanding 1995-96 season culminating in a 21 victory against Mississippi State in the Final 22 Four of the NCAA Tournament to advance to the 23 final game of the competition. 3016 1 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I rise to 2 commend this great basketball team which has 3 really done some wonderful things for the City 4 of Syracuse. The community has come together 5 like I've never seen it before. Actually, I saw 6 it come together before one last time like this 7 back in 1987, when we lost in a last four 8 second shot by somebody who will remain 9 nameless. But on both of these occasions, this 10 team has shown the spirit that we think all 11 Central New Yorkers have. 12 Although the team last night came 13 a little bit short, they certainly ran out of 14 gas because of the onslaught of the Kentucky 15 Wild Cats, but they didn't run out of heart. 16 They played as hard as they could for as long as 17 they could, and within four minutes to the end 18 of the game, they were still within two points, 19 what very few teams have done with this fine 20 Kentucky team. 21 I am proud to be from Central New 22 York. I'm proud to have participated in 23 interscholastic sports at Syracuse University, 3017 1 and I'm very proud to have attended and watched 2 a wonderful team bring a community together, and 3 I commend the members and also Coach Boeheim, 4 and I am going to invite them to the State 5 Senate to be honored, at a later date. 6 Thank you. 7 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, 8 Senator. I will bring a Mississippi mud pie to 9 the team, the sweet spoils of victory in their 10 Final Four. 11 The question is on the 12 resolution. 13 All those in favor, signify by 14 saying aye. 15 (Response of "Aye.") 16 All those opposed, nay. 17 (There was no response.) 18 The resolution is passed. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: With Senator 20 DeFrancisco's consent, we can put all the 21 members on the resolution. 22 THE PRESIDENT: All members will 23 be listed as cosponsors. 3018 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: At this time, 3 there will be an immediate meeting of the 4 Transportation Committee in the Majority 5 Conference Room. Just for information, 6 following that, Commerce, Economic Development, 7 Small Businesses will meet; then Energy and 8 Telecommunications; then Social services. But 9 we will call each one individually as each 10 meeting ends. 11 If we could take up the 12 noncontroversial calendar at this time. 13 I believe we have a substitution. 14 THE PRESIDENT: Secretary will 15 read. 16 THE SECRETARY: On page 5, 17 Senator Volker moves to discharge from the 18 Committee on Codes, Assembly bill 7545A and 19 substitute it for identical Senate Bill 3785A. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Substitution 21 ordered. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam 23 President. At this time, if we could take up 3019 1 the noncontroversial calendar. 2 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 3 will read. 4 THE SECRETARY: On page 11, 5 Calendar Number 301, by Senator Goodman, Senate 6 Print 1695B, an act to amend the Transportation 7 Law, in relation to increasing penalties for 8 violating the motor carrier certificate. 9 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 10 section, please. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 12 act shall take effect on the first day of 13 November. 14 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll.) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 17 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 18 passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 569, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 6259, an 21 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 22 relation to changing the color of certain police 23 vehicles offered for resale. 3020 1 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 2 section, please. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43. 8 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 9 passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 575, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 6336, an 12 act to amend the General Municipal Law, in 13 relation to revision of mass transportation 14 services in the county of Tompkins. 15 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 16 section, please. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll.) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 22 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 23 passed. 3021 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 576, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 6368, an 3 act to amend Chapter 356 of the Laws of 1994, 4 amending the Erie County Tax Act. 5 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 6 section, please. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll.) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 12 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 13 passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 587, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 6108, an 16 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 17 extending the tourism promotion fee in the 18 county of Nassau. 19 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 20 section, please. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 3022 1 (The Secretary called the roll.) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 3 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 4 passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 589, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 6283, an 7 act to amend Section 7 of Chapter 587 of the 8 Laws of 1995, relating to authorizing the 9 conveyance of certain lands to the Brooklyn 10 Academy of Music. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 12 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside, 13 please. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 596, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 4010, an act 16 to amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation 17 to authorizing and establishing compensation for 18 members of the Genesee Valley Regional Market 19 Authority. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 21 section, please. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 23 act shall take effect immediately. 3023 1 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 4 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 5 passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 599, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 6206, an 8 act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in 9 relation to allowing the Town of Hannibal to 10 contract with the Onondaga County Water 11 Authority. 12 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 13 section, please. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 19 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 20 passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 625, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 6686, 23 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation 3024 1 Law, in relation to authorizing cities within 2 the County of Nassau to qualify as a planning 3 unit. 4 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 5 section, please. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 11 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 12 passed. 13 That completes the 14 noncontroversial calendar. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam 16 President. At this time, if we could take up 17 Senator Goodman's bill, Calendar Number 589. 18 THE PRESIDENT: Secretary will 19 read. 20 THE SECRETARY: On page 29, 21 Calendar Number 589, by Senator Goodman, Senate 22 Print 6283, an act to amend Section 7 of Chapter 23 587 of the Laws of 1995, relating to authorizing 3025 1 the conveyance of certain lands to the Brooklyn 2 Academy of Music. 3 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Saland. 4 SENATOR SALAND: Would it be 5 appropriate before Senator Goodman takes up his 6 bill if I did a bit of housekeeping? 7 SENATOR SKELOS: We're on the 8 bill now, Senator. We have to wait a minute. 9 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Goodman. 10 SENATOR GOODMAN: Madam 11 President. This bill relates to the Brooklyn 12 Academy of Music's desire to obtain a piece of 13 land. A bill regarding this transaction had 14 previously passed in this house. Chapter 587 in 15 1995 was enacted to enable BAM, a not-for-profit 16 organization, to enter into discussion with the 17 Office of General Services and the Office of 18 Mental Health for the purchase of the real 19 property in question. At this time, it appears 20 that the parties involved will require longer 21 than the one-year period granted by the original 22 bill to work out the particulars of the 23 purchase. This legislation would merely grant 3026 1 the parties an extra year in which to come to an 2 agreement. 3 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, 4 Senator Goodman. 5 Read the last section, please. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 11 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 12 passed. 13 Senator Saland. 14 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Madam 15 President. Please remove the sponsor star from 16 Senate 2575A, Calendar 391. 17 THE PRESIDENT: The star is 18 removed. 19 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam 21 President. If we could stand at ease now for a 22 few moments, we can get the committee meetings 23 going. Commerce Economic Development will not 3027 1 be meeting. If the members of the Energy 2 Committee could start moving over to the 3 Majority Conference Room, we could commence that 4 meeting as soon as Transportation finishes. 5 Then there will be a Social 6 Services meeting, and then after that a Tourism 7 Committee meeting. 8 So, temporarily, we will stand at 9 ease. 10 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will 11 stand at ease. 12 (Whereupon, at 11:14 a.m., the 13 Senate was at ease.) 14 (Whereupon, at 11:21 a.m., Senate 15 reconvened.) 16 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: 17 Recognize Senator Skelos. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: There will be an 19 immediate meeting of Senate Energy Committee in 20 Room 123 of the Capitol and the Tourism 21 Committee is going to meet in the lobby right 22 outside our chambers right here, for a very 23 important matter. 3028 1 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 2 Skelos, we have a motion at the desk. 3 Senator Farley. 4 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr. 5 President. I wish to call up Senator Johnson's 6 bill, which is 5830, which was recalled from the 7 Assembly, which is now at the desk. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 9 Secretary will read. 10 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 11 Johnson, Senate Print 5830, an act to amend the 12 Environmental Conservation Law, in relation to 13 permitting certain additional persons to obtain 14 commercial lobster permits. 15 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President. 16 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 17 bill was passed. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 19 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration. 20 (The Secretary called the roll on 21 reconsideration.) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 3029 1 bill is before the house. 2 Senator Farley. 3 SENATOR FARLEY: I now offer the 4 following amendments. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: 6 Amendments received. 7 Senator Skelos. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 9 The Social Services Committee will meet in the 10 Majority Conference Room following the 11 Transportation Committee meeting. 12 (Whereupon, at 11:22 a.m., the 13 Senate was at ease.) 14 (Whereupon, at 11:24 a.m., the 15 Senate reconvened.) 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: 18 Recognize Senator Skelos. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Just as a 20 reminder to the members. The Transportation 21 Committee is meeting now in the Majority 22 Conference Room. Following that meeting, the 23 Social Services Committee will meet in the 3030 1 Majority Conference Room. Tourism is meeting 2 out in the lobby right now on a nomination, and 3 Energy Committee is meeting in 123 of the 4 Capitol, and the Senate will stand in recess 5 until 2:15 this afternoon. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Thank 7 you, Senator Skelos. 8 The Senate is in recess until 9 2:15 this afternoon. 10 (Whereupon, at 11:25 a.m., the 11 Senate recessed.) 12 (Whereupon, at 2:55 p.m., Senate 13 reconvened.) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 15 will come to order. 16 Chair recognizes Senator Skelos. 17 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 18 If we could return to motions and resolutions, I 19 believe Senator Farley has a motion to make. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Return to 21 motions and resolutions. 22 Chair recognizes Senator Farley. 23 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr. 3031 1 President. On behalf of Senator Libous, on page 2 33, I offer the following amendments to Calendar 3 191, Senate Print 5724, and I ask that that bill 4 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6 amendments to Calendar Number 191 are received 7 and adopted. The bill will retain its place on 8 the Third Reading Calendar. 9 Senator Skelos. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 11 If we could take up Calendar Number 170, Senate 12 2964A, by Senator Cook. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We will 14 go to the order of the Calendar. 15 Secretary will read Calendar 16 Number 170. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 170, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 2964A, an act 19 to amend the Tax Law, in relation to imposing a 20 sales and compensating use tax on commissaries 21 in correctional facilities. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Paterson. 3032 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Cook, an explanation, a very long one, has been 4 asked for by Senator Paterson. 5 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 6 This bill which is Senate Bill 2964A -- it's an 7 "A" because it's been amended -- is cosponsored 8 by Senators DeFrancisco, DiCarlo, Farley, 9 Hannon, Kuhl, Larkin, Libous, Maltese, Present, 10 Saland, Sears, Seward, Trunzo and Velella, and 11 it provides that the State of New York and the 12 other municipalities would benefit from 13 collecting sales tax from taxable items which 14 are sold in prison commissaries and in 15 commissaries of jails that are operated by 16 counties and/or cities within the State of New 17 York. 18 That tax generally is 4 percent 19 state tax, and varies somewhat from one county 20 to another, and some counties being 4 percent or 21 other counties being 3 or 2 percent, and in some 22 counties it's even higher than 4 percent, so it 23 does vary a little bit on the way that it would 3033 1 impact on different counties. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Paterson. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 5 President. I would wonder if Senator Cook would 6 yield and be willing for me at this time to ask 7 a couple of questions that have been just kind 8 of - 9 SENATOR COOK: Senator, probably 10 for an hour or so, if you would like. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Cook yields, Senator Paterson. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: For an hour? 14 Mr. President. I hope that will 15 be enough time because I have a lot of 16 questions. 17 SENATOR COOK: I admire you, 18 Senator, for being able to find that many 19 questions to ask in an hour. 20 SENATOR GOLD: I'll help you with 21 the - 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. So 23 if there's anyone not only within this chamber 3034 1 but within the sound of my voice that wants to 2 share as much about this issue as I do, people 3 who are in offices listening on the box or 4 people here, gather around. Get closer 5 together. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Gold, why do you rise? 9 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 10 yield? 11 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 12 Point of order. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Paterson, 14 are you speaking for yourself or everybody on 15 that side? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Paterson, excuse me. Senator Gold is rising and 18 I'm not going to recognize him because he's not 19 in his chair, and that will settle that. 20 But in any case, are you through 21 with your answer to Senator Paterson's question, 22 Senator Cook? 23 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 3035 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Paterson, you do have the floor. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: I was saying 4 that we should all get closer together to think 5 about this issue, so all of you who are 6 listening and all of you who are concerned 7 welcome to Senate rehab. All you need do for 8 the next hour is get up. You don't have to 9 engage in the regular formalities. Just get up 10 and say your first name, like, "Hi! My name is 11 Manny. I can't think of anything else to do 12 right now, so I'm just going to walk around the 13 chamber." 14 Actually, Senator Cook, I do have 15 some questions and let me get started right now. 16 I would like to know how many - 17 how much revenues do you think that this piece 18 of legislation that you either thought up or 19 took from Senator Nozzolio because I see he has 20 a bill of similar virtue -- how much revenue do 21 you think that this will bring into the state? 22 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. I 23 trust that the good Senator isn't accusing me of 3036 1 larceny on this bill. But that -- being that as 2 it may, our numbers from the State Corrections 3 Department indicate that it would generate about 4 $640,000 in revenue for the state. Our 5 estimates for localities is it would be about 6 $480,000. Now, that's only the numbers that 7 relate to the state facilities themselves. 8 The bill also applies to local 9 facilities, and we have attempted to get 10 estimates. The Corrections Department can not 11 supply us with that information. They say they 12 don't have any aggregate numbers of how much is 13 sold in the local commissaries, but we're 14 guessing that it may be a comparable amount. 15 There are -- the population -- the aggregate 16 population of the local facilities is somewhat 17 larger than the aggregate population of the 18 state facilities; but, on the other hand, the 19 prisoners are there for shorter periods of time 20 so we're assuming they may not be purchasing the 21 same quantities of goods as would prisoners in 22 state facilities. 23 So all things being equal, we're 3037 1 assuming that the amount of sales tax collected 2 from inmates in local facilities would be rather 3 comparable to what is collected in state 4 facilities which, as I said, is $640,000 from 5 state facilities. Now, if you double that, 6 that's a $1,280,000 that we would be collecting 7 at the state level. It is double of $480,000 or 8 $960,000 that would be accruing to the benefit 9 of local governments. 10 And I would say, Senator 11 Paterson, and this I assume would be something 12 you would be quite interested in, New York City, 13 since it has a higher sales tax than many other 14 municipalities and also since its prison 15 population at its local facilities is higher per 16 capita, perhaps, than other municipality, would 17 probably collect a larger proportion of that 18 roughly two million dollars than would other 19 municipalities in the state, so it would be 20 beneficial to the City of New York, as well. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Paterson. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, thank you, 3038 1 Mr. President. If Senator Cook would continue 2 to yield? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Cook, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR COOK: Of course. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Senator yields. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Cook, 9 how are the funds that inmates in our 10 correctional facilities -- how do they get in 11 the hands of the inmates right now? I would 12 assume, from different tasks they perform, work 13 that they do that is within the actual 14 facility. 15 And I guess I would like to add 16 to that is who determines how much money they 17 receive for performing these functions? 18 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. I 19 believe -- and I stand to be corrected on this, 20 but I believe it's about a 50 cents an hour 21 payment that's made to prisoners for work that 22 they perform while in prison. It is, of course, 23 and unfortunately, I might add, a minority of 3039 1 prisoners who are perhaps not of -- perhaps it's 2 not their fault, but it's only a minority of 3 them who are actually employed in the prisons, 4 so most of the prisoners who would be spending 5 money in the commissaries would be deriving 6 their funds from some source other than from 7 work they actually do within the prison system. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Paterson. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 11 Senator. 12 While I was listening to your 13 answer, Senator Abate was by to tell us that 14 when she was in prison, it was 16 cents to 50 - 15 I'm sorry, when she managed the facilities, it 16 was 16 cents to about 50 cents. 17 The reason I ask you this 18 question, Senator Cook, is that I would assume 19 that the heads of the facilities in concert with 20 criminal justice experts and people who are 21 familiar with Corrections would set the amount 22 that they feel it would be appropriate for the 23 inmates to receive so that they can make certain 3040 1 purchases right within the system and that they 2 don't have an excess of money, so, in other 3 words, it's kind of a regulated amount of money 4 that they would have; is that not correct? 5 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I think 6 that there is an effort, has historically been 7 an effort to set the compensation in such a 8 manner that it gives some return to the 9 prisoners, recognizes, of course -- and I say 10 this almost tongue in cheek that they have free 11 room and board, but that they have an amount of 12 money which they can utilize in some reasonable 13 manner to make purchases, small purchases. At 14 the same time, we're not paying them $12 an hour 15 so that you can to go prison and have a great 16 job so that you can support your family on it. 17 That's not really the purpose of prison. 18 The purpose is to simply 19 compensate the prisoner, to some degree, for the 20 work that they perform, and, fortunately, I 21 would say there is a certain amount of 22 rehabilitative value to the work that the 23 prisoners do. I think that not only do they 3041 1 perform very useful functions but they also 2 learn job skills while they are doing it. 3 And I would say that we had one 4 very interesting situation at Eastern where 5 these folks learned something quite valuable, 6 because they worked on the electrical system and 7 learned where the tunnels were and found out how 8 to get over the wall, so in the process of their 9 employment they indeed picked up some very 10 useful skills. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Paterson. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: That's quite 14 interesting, Senator. If you would continue to 15 yield, I have another question. 16 SENATOR COOK: Yes, I will 17 yield. Yes, sure. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, you 19 are aware that some inmates -- the monies that 20 they collect actually goes into the crime 21 victims system and that they actually make 22 payments into that whole institution, as well. 23 Is that not correct? 3042 1 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I -- I am 2 assuming that since you say that that it's 3 correct, although I must confess out of my own 4 knowledge, I don't know that. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 6 Therefore, Senator, what I guess 7 I'm leading up to -- and I'm sure everyone here 8 is guessing what I'm leading up to -- is that 9 with the amount of resources that could be 10 returned to the state with the adoption of this 11 law, the fact is that since this is a regulated, 12 in a sense, payment system and we've determined 13 that this is about the amount of money that 14 inmates should have, then would it not be very 15 possible that after we adopt this law there will 16 be, in a sense, another change that would be 17 made to increase the amount of money that is in 18 the pockets of inmates to, in a sense, offset 19 the amount that would be paid back into the 20 state for sales tax? 21 SENATOR COOK: Senator, that may 22 well be, but I think we have to understand that 23 this is an institutional store; that it does not 3043 1 have the usually costs that are connected with 2 running a business. Obviously, they don't have 3 rents and other kinds of business costs 4 associated with running a business. They also 5 -- since there usually are inmates who are 6 running the store, their labor costs are 7 relatively modest, so they already are getting a 8 pretty good bargain on this material. If, for 9 example, they had to rely upon their families to 10 purchase these items and bring them in to them, 11 it would cost the families much more than that 12 if they had to buy it on the market outside and 13 bring it in to them than it cost them. 14 Incidentally, Senator, there's a 15 very interesting -- something -- you might be 16 interested in a little aside on this, since 17 we're trying to find something to talk about. I 18 understand that in certain European nations that 19 used to be behind the Iron curtain -- and I 20 don't know whether this is still the practice - 21 that families actually had to bring the food 22 into the hospitals, so that if you were a 23 patient in a hospital, your family had to 3044 1 provide you with the food. So I guess we're 2 pretty liberal and pretty generous in our prison 3 institutions because we don't require the 4 families to bring the food to the prisoners 5 while they are there. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Paterson. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Senator, 9 we were thinking of Dickens and Tale of Two 10 Cities where that same situation happened, 11 except in my case if I were in the hospital, it 12 might have been the food that my family gave me 13 that put me there, so that just would have 14 exacerbated the problem. 15 But one of the items that 16 prisoners often seek when they are going to the 17 store right in the facilities are cigarettes, 18 and I was just wondering with the sales tax on 19 cigarettes but also the additional taxes that we 20 have, kind of a sin tax for the purchase of 21 these items, is there any provision in the 22 legislation that would add to the tax on some of 23 these items that were already -- for individuals 3045 1 who are outside of a facility who are not 2 incarcerated that we are trying to in a sense 3 through our tax system discourage this kind of 4 activity, that perhaps we might be including a 5 provision in this bill to do that, particularly 6 with individuals we're trying to rehabilitate? 7 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I'm not 8 altogether clear on exactly the question, but I 9 think I got the drift of it, which is, should we 10 add an additional tax to what we charge for 11 cigarettes within the prison in order to 12 discourage use by prisoners of tobacco? Is that 13 kind of the drift you're going? 14 Well, this bill doesn't address 15 that issue, Senator. Obviously, it is a health 16 concern, and it does seem a little bit ironic 17 that we spend a great deal of money on our 18 health systems within the prisons to help 19 rehabilitate the prisoners who are ill and at 20 the same time we sell them something like 21 cigarettes which cause them to be ill, so it is 22 a little strange. But, quite frankly, even 23 though that's an issue, it's not the issue of 3046 1 this bill. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Paterson. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 5 Senator. If the Senator would continue to 6 yield. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Cook, do you continue to yield? 9 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 yields. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Just looking 13 at the issue of sales tax in general, Senator, 14 would it not be a correct statement that sales 15 tax by its nature inherently is regressive and, 16 therefore, would hurt those who are least able 17 to accumulate wealth? 18 And since we have a regulated 19 system in our incarcerational facilities that, 20 therefore, the sales taxes, in a sense, being 21 applied disproportionately because of the meager 22 wages that these individuals are actually able 23 to obtain, not that we have to be fair to them, 3047 1 but the fact is that it is going to garner a 2 higher percentage of the value that they are 3 able to accrue and, therefore, in a sense are 4 not going to be able to have the resources that 5 they had before, much the same as it would be 6 with individuals who are at the lower income 7 scales. 8 Do you think that there is an apt 9 comparison with people who are being 10 incarcerated in our state penitentiaries that 11 the sales tax acts in a disproportionate and 12 regressive manner? 13 SENATOR COOK: Senator, 14 fortunately, the prison system is probably as 15 close to a pure communism as has ever existed in 16 the world because everybody gets paid the same 17 regardless of what they do, as long as they 18 work, at least that's my understanding. So 19 since the wage of everybody is the same, I guess 20 the sales tax is the same on everybody who pays 21 it, so it's not regressive within the context of 22 the prison population itself. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: That raises a 3048 1 question, Senator. Are prisoners allowed to 2 have any other resources than just the ones that 3 are awarded due to this work that they perform 4 while in the facility? 5 SENATOR COOK: Well, we don't 6 confiscate, except in certain cases -- depending 7 upon the crime for which the person has been 8 convicted, of course, we don't confiscate their 9 resources; and, in fact, there are within the 10 prison system, as you know, some rather wealthy 11 people and, presumably, they could have 12 resources to spend in the commissary that would 13 go beyond what other people would have. I think 14 we have to concede that. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I 16 wasn't actually speaking to the net worth of the 17 inmate. I was thinking more in terms of what we 18 allow them to have at the actual facility 19 itself. 20 SENATOR COOK: Do you mean are 21 prisoners permitted to have possessions? 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Correct. 23 Other than the ones that they might receive as 3049 1 wages for the work that they perform while - 2 SENATOR COOK: Yes, a prisoner - 3 Senator, some prisoners, as you tour prisons, 4 you find that their cells are rather handsomely 5 furnished, and this is not something that they 6 have particularly purchased at the prison 7 commissary, but they are things that they have 8 gotten permission to bring into the prison, and, 9 after all, if somebody is there for the major 10 part of their lifetime, they do accumulate a few 11 items of personal property. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Paterson. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Actually, 15 Senator, I'm informed by counsel, quite learned 16 counsel, that any excess funds that are in the 17 possession of the inmate at the time the 18 incarceration commences are actually deposited 19 into the commissary account, so there are no 20 extra funds. So, actually, your earlier 21 statement is exactly correct that it is close to 22 a pure form of communism, not that you nor I 23 should be accused of advocating for it here, but 3050 1 the point is that just -- this is -- is an issue 2 I was just asking in terms of what the total 3 resources of the inmate - 4 SENATOR COOK: We're talking 5 about cash resources, Senator, as opposed -- I 6 was interpreting your question as meaning 7 whether they were able to possess items, and I 8 have seen prison cells which had various kinds 9 of furnishings that were apparently brought into 10 the prison with the permission of the facility. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, do 12 you think that this system that we would adopt 13 by which we charge sales tax to the inmates 14 would encourage cash-only transactions in the 15 institution? 16 SENATOR COOK: I would assume so, 17 Senator. It might actually create a situation 18 in which, when you purchase something for a 19 dollar, you might actually have to give them 20 either the nickel and the three pennies or the 21 eight pennies to go into a special container for 22 payment of the sales tax. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3051 1 Paterson. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Actually, what 3 I was getting at, Senator, was the fact that 4 since the wealthier prisoners would be able to 5 add money to their commissary accounts through 6 their family's deposit and through other outside 7 resources, it would create in a sense sort of a 8 black market account, whereby those prisoners 9 would probably work in concert with the 10 prisoners who have lesser resources to create 11 the situation to, in a sense, go around the 12 sales tax. Since the prisoners who have lesser 13 value because they are only deriving it from the 14 work that they do, they would then have to 15 interact with those who could fund these 16 accounts on the outside. Now, that's a 17 possibility, but maybe your bill addresses it by 18 taxing the commissary account, and I was 19 wondering if you did have a solution for that. 20 SENATOR COOK: Senator, it 21 doesn't tax the commissary account. It only 22 taxes the actual purchases that are made from 23 the commissary. As I understand, the commissary 3052 1 account is like a debit card. It's an amount - 2 it's an amount against which purchases can be 3 made, and the account is actually credited each 4 time a purchase is made against that amount. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Paterson. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: You know the 8 reason that I raise that question, Senator, is 9 because since there are limited choices in the 10 commissary account and we think that the 11 commissary account may become, in a sense, the 12 foil of this entire legislation because it 13 becomes almost a viaduct to avoidance of the 14 actual intent of the legislation, it leads me to 15 believe that perhaps there would be added 16 pressure exerted by the inmates to widen the 17 variety of opportunity in terms of sales in the 18 commissary account which could have greater cost 19 to the state and cut into the $640,000 of 20 resources that would be provided for in this 21 bill. 22 SENATOR ABATE: (Speaking to 23 Senator Paterson) Instead of one kind of 3053 1 shampoo, they may have to offer now twelve. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: You know, Mr. 3 President, I don't mind being the puppet, but I 4 don't want the strings to show. 5 (Laughter.) 6 The point is that -- this has 7 really been bothering me, Senator, and I need to 8 know if there's any way that this legislation 9 will cause the correctional system to spend more 10 money that would diminish from the total 11 resources that would be derived from passing 12 this bill, and I need to know that as soon as 13 possible, Senator, because it's really bothering 14 me. 15 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. I 16 think we have to stop for a moment and clarify 17 the difference between a commissary account and 18 the actual sales made by the commissary. 19 As I understand it, Senator, as I 20 enter prison, I may have $100 and I may 21 surrender that at the time I enter the facility 22 and it goes into my commissary account. 23 I then buy ten candy bars, and I 3054 1 pay the sales tax on the ten candy bars, so that 2 entire amount of the purchase is then credited 3 against my $100. 4 So that the $100 in my commissary 5 account doesn't have anything to do with how 6 much I spend and how much sales tax I pay when 7 the item is purchased. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Senator, 9 it seems to me that one of the possible 10 detriments of the legislation is that it 11 enhances and continues a circumstance that has 12 continued in prisons all through the years -- it 13 was written about in Fleeta; it was written 14 about in Blackstone -- this whole idea of 15 survival of the fittest, that those who have the 16 greatest resources bully and victimize those who 17 have the least. And this sales tax system, 18 since it will cut deeper into the wages of the 19 inmate will allow those inmates who have greater 20 resources and greater contacts outside to 21 control the flow of barter within the 22 institution through the use of cigarettes and 23 shampoos and other mechanisms of conversion to 3055 1 actually avoid the sales tax and, in a sense, go 2 around the prison store and subject those who 3 have the lesser to a greater type of 4 victimization, because now what we're really 5 allowing is a sort of preferential treatment for 6 those inmates who have greater resources, and I 7 was wondering if that is something that 8 actually, you know, is a possibility. 9 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I'm not 10 clear on exactly the point you are trying to 11 make. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Neither am I, 13 Senator. 14 SENATOR COOK: Is your point 15 that - 16 SENATOR PATERSON: That's why I'm 17 asking. I want you to clarify my point. 18 SENATOR COOK: Okay. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: And then I 20 want you to answer. 21 SENATOR COOK: I'll clarify your 22 point, Senator. If your point is as I think I 23 understand it that persons who are - 3056 1 (There was a pause.) 2 Senator, while you scratch your 3 head, you have to also rub your belly. If you 4 can do that, you're all right. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, this 6 question comes to us from a viewer very close 7 by. 8 SENATOR COOK: Is that a viewer 9 or a voyeur? A viewer? 10 SENATOR PATERSON: And we were 11 wondering, just to make sure, that the revenues 12 that are going to be derived from this bill are 13 going to go directly to the counties from which 14 the court action that convicted the inmate in 15 the first place. So, in other words, this will 16 not be something that will realize revenues 17 disproportionately to certain regions but, 18 rather, will return the resources to the areas 19 where the crimes were committed; in other words, 20 the home county that the individual inmate was 21 inevitably convicted. Is that correct? 22 SENATOR COOK: Senator, that's a 23 very good question because -- and I'm really 3057 1 glad you asked it. 2 You may remember I have another 3 bill which requires that the state pay to the 4 locality a dollar a year for each of its inmates 5 to cover the cost of fire protection. There 6 are, in fact, certain services that local 7 governments have to provide because there is a 8 prison within their boundaries and for which 9 they can derive no revenue; and while the 10 argument is sometimes made that the prison in 11 itself constitutes an economic benefit for the 12 community, the fact is that there is on the part 13 of the local government a lay out of certain 14 funds for which they are able to get no return. 15 One of the things which this bill 16 would do, since the local sales tax revenue 17 would go back to the county in which the 18 facility is located, would be to help reimburse 19 them to some degree for the outlay of funds 20 which they have to make to support the fact that 21 there is a prison located within their 22 community. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3058 1 Paterson. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, in 3 terms of the amount of sales tax, we are going 4 to charge the state rate, are we not? 5 SENATOR COOK: We're going to 6 charge the state and local rate. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Earlier, you 8 said what was interesting about the whole 9 institutional process when it comes to the 10 penitentiaries is the fact that we have a kind 11 of regulated system where some of the items that 12 are purchased are actually less. In other 13 words, as you said, and I think quite correctly, 14 the inmate is getting a pretty good deal. In 15 other words, these items are being purchased for 16 far less than they would be on the outside; 17 correct? 18 SENATOR COOK: Correct. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Then I was 20 wondering why wouldn't we make the similar 21 adjustment in the sales tax to, in a sense, 22 equalize the system? In other words, there must 23 have been a reason that we're charging less 3059 1 because there is a certain amount of control 2 since we're acting within the institution. So 3 if we want the sales tax to demonstrate to 4 inmates that they have to be part of society, 5 then this is a good way for them to understand 6 they shouldn't just buy things off the shelves 7 without paying any tax. They should pay some 8 form of tax as any other consumer would, thus 9 influencing whether or not they want to buy or 10 at least letting them know that other taxpayers' 11 dollars are even supporting their custodial care 12 while they are in the penitentiary. So, then, 13 wouldn't it follow that we would have a sales 14 tax that would be adjusted to the items that are 15 received? Otherwise, we would be charging a 16 greater amount of tax for a lesser amount in the 17 item. 18 SENATOR COOK: Senator, that's an 19 interesting point. Frankly, I'm not sure how 20 you would adjust to that because you do charge 21 sales tax based on the selling price of the 22 item. But it does address an earlier point 23 which I thought you were making, which was the 3060 1 fact that in some cases where families might be 2 able because of their economic circumstances to 3 make certain purchases on the outside that they 4 would then bring into the prison and create a 5 sort of a black market situation. 6 The fact is that the sales tax on 7 the outside would be higher than the sales tax 8 on the inside, so that, not by intent but 9 actually by operation, this bill would 10 discourage that type of black market operation, 11 because even with the sales tax the items would 12 still be less expensive inside the prison than 13 they would be outside. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Gold, why do you rise? 17 SENATOR GOLD: With Senator 18 Paterson's permission, could I just ask the 19 gentleman question one question? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Paterson, do you yield to Senator Gold? 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Senator 23 Gold, you know, I was really just getting to the 3061 1 apex of my examination, and it's very 2 difficult -- I don't want to lose my place-- but 3 because of our long friendship and my admiration 4 for you as a Senator and also as a thinking 5 person, I yield the floor at this time. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Senator yields. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 9 As a thinking person, you 10 probably made the wrong decision. 11 Senator Cook, if we are trying to 12 give them a real life experience, is there a 13 provision in the bill which says that they can 14 avoid the tax by paying cash? 15 SENATOR COOK: Senator, if they 16 pay cash, they pay the sales tax. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Well, then - 18 Senator, what I'm getting at, shouldn't it be a 19 real life experience as if they were buying on 20 42nd Street in New York or dealing with a 21 merchant in some of our small communities? 22 SENATOR COOK: Do you mean if 23 they were able to walk out onto the street in 3062 1 front of the prison and buy the material, 2 instead of buying it in the prison, they could 3 avoid paying the sales tax? Is that what you're 4 getting at? 5 SENATOR GOLD: You're talking 6 about making this a real life experience, so I 7 was just wondering if they could avoid the tax 8 by paying cash - 9 SENATOR COOK: Your point is well 10 taken, Senator. 11 SENATOR GOLD: -- which is the 12 practice of most of the small merchants who say 13 they don't charge sales tax, they only collect 14 it; and, actually, it's an increase in their 15 income. I didn't know if there was a 16 correlation. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Abate, why do you rise? 19 SENATOR ABATE: I'm confused. 20 SENATOR COOK: Congratulations. 21 SENATOR ABATE: Although I think 22 Senator Paterson did his best to clarify the 23 issue, with all due respect, there are a couple 3063 1 issues, I think, left, not clarified, that I 2 would like to pursue. 3 My first issue, Senator, if the 4 Senator would yield. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Cook, do you yield? 7 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 8 SENATOR ABATE: I see before me 9 that there's another piece of legislation, which 10 is introduced by Senator Nozzolio, and it's 11 2818. What's the difference between your 12 legislation and his legislation; and why do you 13 support yours over his? 14 SENATOR COOK: Senator, you know, 15 I have to make a confession to you. I know word 16 for word every one of the 10,000 bills that is 17 introduced in this chamber except that one, and 18 I'm really not familiar with Senator Nozzolio's 19 bill. 20 SENATOR ABATE: You are probably 21 better than the rest of us. We usually don't 22 know the language of the bills that we sponsor. 23 SENATOR COOK: Beg pardon. 3064 1 SENATOR ABATE: But let me read 2 the language proposed, and maybe you can tell me 3 what the difference is and why you support yours 4 over Senator Nozzolio's. He has a section that 5 reads, "Any institution authorized by the 6 commissioner to establish a commissary or a 7 canteen shall assess the appropriate sales and 8 use taxes on the items sold." 9 So it would leave to the 10 discretion of each jail in a county or to the 11 statewide prison system the ability to determine 12 what the sales tax or use tax should be. Now, 13 why is that a worse solution compared to your 14 legislation? 15 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I have 16 been rescued by a staff member who has brought 17 to me a memorandum from the Tax Department that, 18 with all due respect to my colleague, indicates 19 that my bill amends the correct section of law 20 and his does not. 21 SENATOR ABATE: I see. But it's 22 my understanding, and please correct me, 23 Senator, that both bills are going to be passed 3065 1 by the Senate today. Wouldn't that be an 2 inconsistent -- although we have never taken any 3 inconsistent actions in the past. Wouldn't that 4 be an inconsistent action by this Legislature? 5 SENATOR COOK: As I indicated 6 before, I know exactly what's going to happen 7 with 9,999 bills, but, unfortunately, Senator 8 Nozzolio's bill, I'm not aware what's going to 9 occur with that, so I really can't answer your 10 question. 11 SENATOR ABATE: I guess many of 12 us are in a dilemma because we're not sure 13 whether we're going to be voting on this bill 14 today and we have to choose between one and the 15 other and we're just not sure which bill to 16 support. 17 SENATOR COOK: Life is full of 18 tough choices, Senator. 19 SENATOR ABATE: Right. If the 20 Senator would yield to another question? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Cook, do you continue to yield? 23 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 3066 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 yields. 3 SENATOR ABATE: There seems to be 4 a point made by Senator Nozzolio's bill that 5 your legislation does not address. If the goal 6 of the legislation is to create revenue, 7 additional revenue for counties -- because my 8 understanding is the county would be the 9 recipient of this revenue. It wouldn't go back 10 into the state coffers; am I correct? 11 SENATOR COOK: Under my bill, 12 Senator, the proportion that is due to the state 13 goes to the state and -- you know, render unto 14 Caesar that which is Caesar's. 15 SENATOR ABATE: I see. So the 16 portion that is state taxes go back to the 17 state, the local taxes go back to localities. 18 SENATOR COOK: Exactly. 19 SENATOR ABATE: But, clearly, the 20 intent of the legislation is to produce 21 additional revenue for the state and the 22 localities. 23 SENATOR COOK: Senator, in 3067 1 reality, that's not the point. The point is 2 that we have for one class of citizens in the 3 state a subsidized system in which they can make 4 purchases of certain materials and do not pay 5 sales tax which is paid by everybody else in the 6 state, and this bill is simply a statement of 7 equity, that, in fact, you should not reward 8 someone who is incarcerated by forgiving them 9 the sales tax that they would have to be paying 10 if they hadn't been put in prison. 11 SENATOR ABATE: Senator, that's 12 very interesting. So the intent is not to 13 produce additional revenue. It's to teach the 14 inmates another very good lesson. 15 SENATOR COOK: It's to establish 16 equity among all the people in the state. I 17 think it is really kind of ironic at this moment 18 -- if we can go back to that earlier 19 situation -- that if the family made the 20 purchase on the outside and brought it in to the 21 prisoner, they would have to pay sales tax, but 22 if the prisoner buys it in the prison 23 commissary, he doesn't pay sales tax. 3068 1 SENATOR ABATE: But, Senator, 2 wouldn't you say that the equity that we're 3 trying to put in the correction system is 4 another way of showing the inmates this is how 5 society should operate? This is one way of 6 paying back their debt to society? 7 SENATOR COOK: That's a fair 8 statement, Senator. 9 SENATOR ABATE: And then, 10 secondarily, is the opportunity to produce 11 additional revenue. 12 SENATOR COOK: Sure. 13 SENATOR ABATE: You would put the 14 teaching the lesson first and teaching - 15 collecting revenue as a corollary, a secondary 16 goal of the legislation. 17 SENATOR COOK: Only if you 18 amended the first statement to say that it is a 19 matter of statement of establishing equity, as 20 well, because I think there is a signal out 21 there, that when my children went into the 22 college book store they paid sales tax on items 23 that they purchased, but if they had gone into 3069 1 the prison commissary they wouldn't have paid 2 sales tax. I think that's a wrong statement for 3 society to make. 4 SENATOR ABATE: I'm glad you said 5 that, because if you saw the revenue production 6 was the primary goal of the legislation, you'd 7 probably support Senator Nozzolio's legislation. 8 SENATOR COOK: I probably do 9 anyway, Senator. 10 SENATOR ABATE: So you are 11 willing to lay this aside. 12 SENATOR COOK: No. I say I 13 probably would support Senator Nozzolio's 14 legislation, if you're telling me that it's a 15 matter of trying to enhance the fiscal situation 16 of the state. 17 SENATOR ABATE: Right. 18 SENATOR COOK: I think that's 19 something which today as we meet here we're all 20 very conscious of; and, certainly, if Senator 21 Nozzolio has a means by which we can improve the 22 State's fiscal outlook, I have enough trust in 23 his judgment and knowledge and ability that I 3070 1 would be very supportive of his efforts to do 2 that, yes. 3 SENATOR ABATE: I haven't reached 4 the point that his bill is better than yours, 5 but I guess I raise the question if the price of 6 these goods -- and what's sold are shampoos and 7 soaps, potato chips, cake. If you look at most 8 inmates, they gain a lot of weight because of 9 the amount of carbohydrates they eat, and they 10 love going to the commissary to get - 11 particularly the women, to get these kinds of 12 things that they can't get as the shampoos, and 13 then the extras like the potato chips. 14 There are two things that could 15 happen. We might produce a skinnier inmate, a 16 leaner inmate, because the cost of the goods 17 might get so high that they can't buy the potato 18 chips. 19 SENATOR COOK: That would be a 20 problem, too, because where they have bars and 21 if they get so skinny they can get between them, 22 we might actually have an escape problem. 23 SENATOR ABATE: That's a very 3071 1 good point. So they either don't buy it because 2 they can't afford it or -- would that contribute 3 to unrest if the inmates are used to buying the 4 cakes and potato chips? The sales tax is added 5 on and they no longer can afford to buy the 6 goods in quantity so the state and localities 7 don't get this revenue. The inmates are angry. 8 They then have to buy the potato chips from the 9 inmate that actually has enough revenue and 10 stores up these potato chips. They stash the 11 potato chips around the jails and prisons. 12 Aren't you concerned that this bill might create 13 undue unrest in the jails and prisons? 14 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I have 15 that same problem with my kids. You know, you 16 give them a dollar, and they go and find out 17 there was eight cents sales tax, and they 18 couldn't buy what they wanted, and they would 19 come home, and we had all kinds of problems with 20 them because of that. 21 SENATOR ABATE: Would the Senator 22 yield to another question? 23 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 3072 1 SENATOR ABATE: I was so pleased, 2 Senator, that you talked about inmates learning 3 a lesson because people go to jail and prison 4 not just for punishment but, hopefully, when 5 they get out of prison they become more 6 productive citizens. They learn how to read and 7 write. They learn to take responsibility for 8 their acts, to be accountable for what they have 9 done and become better citizens. Do you think 10 this is one plan in a long plan of what we 11 should be doing in the state as far as making 12 prisoners more accountable for their crimes, so 13 when they leave they have become better 14 citizens? 15 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I'm not 16 sure whether it makes them more accountable. It 17 does help them know that they have to add 8 18 percent to whatever the posted cost of an item 19 is; and, certainly, if they learn to calculate 20 that 8 percent of 59 cents is 4.8 cents, 21 roughly, it helps train them to do a little bit 22 of arithmetic, and sometimes they even get the 23 right answer. 3073 1 SENATOR ABATE: And I agree with 2 you. Don't you think there's another way that 3 we can drive home this lesson, if we teach 4 inmates how to read and write so they can begin 5 to calculate, and maybe we need to restore some 6 education programs? 7 SENATOR COOK: Well, Senator, if 8 we pass this bill and we have that extra million 9 dollars, perhaps we'll be able to do some of 10 those things. 11 SENATOR ABATE: So you would 12 agree that this might be a first step in a plan 13 of holding inmates accountable and making sure 14 they have the skills, so when they leave they 15 don't revictimize again? Hopefully, this is the 16 first step of a plan. 17 SENATOR COOK: I find that a very 18 interesting nexus that you have created, 19 Senator. 20 SENATOR ABATE: I believe Senator 21 Paterson -- I'm going to yield to Senator 22 Paterson. I believe he has some additional 23 questions? 3074 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Abate. Senator Abate. The chair has usually 3 taken upon the responsibility of the chair to 4 recognize the next speaker, and there already 5 has been a member of our body, a distinguished 6 colleague on your side of the aisle, who has 7 indicated to the chair that she would like to 8 speak on the bill. 9 So while I recognize your 10 congeniality with Senator Paterson and your wish 11 to try to appease his request, the chair would 12 take it upon itself to recognize Senator 13 Montgomery now that you have finished your - 14 SENATOR ABATE: Oh, I think 15 that's fine. I would love to hear from Senator 16 Montgomery. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 18 you. 19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you, 20 Mr. President, and my colleagues. I would just 21 like to ask if the sponsor would continue to 22 yield to a question? 23 SENATOR COOK: Sure. 3075 1 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator 2 Cook, I note in recent weeks there have been 3 several articles in local papers where a local 4 mayor is applauding the possibility of there 5 being a new jail in his town and, in fact, 6 offering land and saying that this is a most 7 welcome occurrence and that it is an economic 8 boon to his area. 9 And I'm just wondering if you 10 have any calculation of what a prison brings to 11 a locality in terms of resources, including the 12 jobs and construction? 13 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I don't 14 have a calculation of that, and, obviously, the 15 easiest calculation would be the payroll of the 16 institution, which is really about the only 17 direct benefit that the community receives 18 because most of the purchases, of course, come 19 through some central agency. In fact, in the 20 prison system, a good bit of what they use is 21 actually produced within the prison system. 22 There is an effort to try to do that. But there 23 is of course a payroll. 3076 1 One of the ironies is that the 2 economic benefit doesn't necessarily accrue 3 directly to the locality in which the prison is 4 located; and if the mayor sees this as a real 5 boon to him, I suggest he might look at some of 6 the communities where prisons already exist. It 7 certainly does have an effect on the larger 8 area, but often the municipality, the smallest 9 municipality in which the prison is located, 10 because it has to provide fire coverage, because 11 it does have a certain amount of traffic and in 12 some cases they consider they may need 13 additional police coverage and in some cases 14 emergency medical coverage, that the actual host 15 municipality incurs a fairly considerable cost. 16 The municipalities which surround 17 it which don't contribute to that cost -- and 18 maybe that should be one of the things we should 19 be dealing with here -- do benefit very 20 considerably because they do have the incomes, 21 of course, of the folks who work at the prison. 22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Do we have a 23 figure for the average number of people employed 3077 1 in a local prison with 1,000 to 1200 inmates? 2 SENATOR COOK: No, we don't, 3 Senator, but I'm assuming it probably would be 4 very close to the same number of employees. It 5 is quite labor intensive. 6 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: So we can 7 assume based on a 24-hour staffing of any 8 facility - 9 SENATOR COOK: Twenty-four hour 10 staffing, corrections officers, all the support 11 staff, the kitchen folks, everybody who is 12 involved in maintaining a prison facility, and 13 that's why the cost of incarceration is so high 14 is because it's very labor intensive. 15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Absolutely. 16 Senator, now, about the construction cost of a 17 local facility. It is my understanding that we 18 spend somewhere around $180,000, $185,000 per 19 prison cell to construct. What does that mean 20 in terms of the revenue that is generated to 21 local contractors who build prisons, given a 22 1500-bed facility? 23 SENATOR COOK: Again, Senator, 3078 1 the contractors who are building prisons are a 2 relatively small number and, in most cases, are 3 probably not located -- their place of business 4 is probably not located in the municipality in 5 which the prison is located. 6 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Do they use 7 local contractors and workers on the projects 8 generally? 9 SENATOR COOK: Probably not 10 because they use union labor, which generally is 11 regionally based, and the contractors may come 12 from -- in my area, for example, they may be 13 building a facility in Ellenville. The 14 contractor may be located in Yonkers. The union 15 headquarters may be in Newburgh, none of which 16 is even in the same county where the facility is 17 being constructed. So that actual revenue that 18 would accrue as a result of that activity very 19 often does not go to the very municipality that 20 is incurring these costs we've been talking 21 about. 22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: So they are 23 not inclined to use local people to work when 3079 1 they are doing these major construction 2 projects? 3 SENATOR COOK: Well, there is a 4 regional benefit, Senator, and I'm not denying 5 that. I'm simply saying that the host 6 municipality somehow doesn't derive the benefit 7 that one might assume from having a prison there 8 even though there is a regional benefit. 9 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right. 10 So, Senator, I just wanted to clarify, if you 11 will, the issue of revenue and who is looking 12 for some revenue to come back to them and how 13 it's going to come. So, clearly, when we talk 14 about the benefit to the locality, we're 15 certainly not talking about the taxes that you 16 are going to collect in the commissary because 17 that doesn't begin to satisfy anywhere near the 18 kind of revenue that is generated by the fact 19 that that prison is located in an area where 20 there are at least a thousand or so jobs that 21 come with it that are created for eternity -- in 22 our life. 23 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I think I 3080 1 indicated in an earlier discussion, revenue is 2 really not the issue here. It is in the case of 3 -- as in my other bill, which is a dollar per 4 inmate. A thousand dollars which goes to a fire 5 district is a pittance, but it is at least a 6 recognition that there is a cost being incurred 7 by the local taxpayers that somehow you mitigate 8 by the revenue you derive. 9 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you, 10 Senator Cook. 11 Mr. President, on the bill. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Montgomery on the bill. 14 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I understand 15 Senator Cook's stated purpose in the 16 legislation. I would, however, question his 17 stated purpose, given the fact that -- I believe 18 it was Senator Cook who also introduced 19 legislation which would deny access to inmates 20 of higher education or being eligible for TAP 21 for reimbursement. So while Senator Cook says 22 that he wants to teach them a lesson, I think 23 Senator Cook wants to punish them it sounds to 3081 1 me like, because teaching a lesson, as pointed 2 out by Senator Abate, means you want to educate 3 people; and if you want to educate people, I 4 think you think in longer terms. Education 5 means learning, and this is clearly not 6 necessarily learning something. It is just a 7 punishment and a further punishment for inmates, 8 and so that's my honest assessment. 9 And as it relates to revenue and 10 wanting to make sure that they give back to the 11 locality, inmates in this state give back to the 12 localities and they give back tremendously in 13 terms of the resources that they generate, and 14 they give back to the extent that people in the 15 localities have said over and over, over the 16 years, that if there is going to be a prison 17 built in the state, I want it in my district. 18 And every Republican Senator, I believe, in this 19 house has at least one and in the case 20 particularly -- specifically, I don't -- yes, 21 Senator Marchi has one, too. That maybe in the 22 case of Senator Cook, he has a number of prisons 23 in his district. 3082 1 And people in his district, the 2 localities, want those prisons not because they 3 like prisoners but because these are economic 4 generators Upstate New York, and we all know and 5 understand that, those on this side and those on 6 that side. So it is not to be denied. What 7 happens to the prisoners inside those prisons, 8 obviously people have very different 9 perspectives. So I say to Senator Cook and all 10 the people who have prisons as well as those who 11 don't have prisons but have constituents who are 12 in those prisons, we owe it to ourselves to know 13 and to be concerned about what's happening to 14 the prisoners while they are in because they are 15 coming out, for the most part. 16 We only just recently passed the 17 life without parole bill. So if we're going to 18 have prisoners coming back, they are coming back 19 to someone's community, and my community is one 20 of those communities, and I want them to come 21 back with being, hopefully, more positive, more 22 educated, more humane individuals and not having 23 been brutalized to the point where they can't 3083 1 live in society any more unless they are in 2 prison, because we can't afford to continue to 3 escalate our prison system to the point where we 4 are going to have two-thirds or half of the men 5 and women in certain areas in prison. How are 6 we going to support that? And then they come 7 out and have to go back in and et cetera. 8 So, Senator Cook, I think this is 9 a very bad -- it's a bad bill because, one, it 10 doesn't do anything in terms of revenue. It has 11 nothing to do with revenue. You admitted that 12 yourself. Two, you say you are teaching a 13 lesson, but you really don't want prisoners to 14 have any learning experiences. You want them to 15 be further penalized, brutalized, and I just 16 think that this bill says absolutely what we 17 should not be saying if we care about what 18 happens to prisoners not only while they are in 19 prison but when they come out. 20 So I will be voting no on this 21 legislation, and I hope my colleagues will join 22 me in the interest of people in this state who 23 will have to live with prisoners when they come 3084 1 out of prison. 2 Thank you, Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Secretary will read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect 30 days after it shall 7 have become a law. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll.) 11 Announce the results when 12 tabulated. 13 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 14 the negative on Calendar 170 are Senators 15 Connor, Leichter, Montgomery, Paterson. Ayes 16 55. Nays 4. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 21 Would you place a sponsor star on Calendar 22 Number 255, Senate 2337D. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: At the 3085 1 request of the sponsor, Calendar Number 255 will 2 be starred. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you 4 recognize Senator Mendez, please. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Mendez, why do you rise? 7 SENATOR MENDEZ: I voted no on 8 170. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 10 objection, the request by Senator Mendez to be 11 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 170 12 is granted. Senator Mendez will be recorded in 13 the negative. 14 Senator Seabrook. Senator 15 Seabrook. Is it your request to be recorded in 16 the negative on Calendar Number 170? 17 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yes, Mr. 18 President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 20 objection, Senator Seabrook will be recorded in 21 the negative on Calendar Number 170. 22 Senator Skelos, may we return to 23 motions and resolutions? We have one piece of 3086 1 housekeeping we would like to take up. 2 Senator Marcellino. 3 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, let's 4 return to motions and resolution. He told me to 5 say that. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Maziarz. We've returned to motions and 8 resolutions. 9 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President. 10 On behalf of Senator Volker, on page number 12, 11 I offer the following amendments to Calendar 12 Number 232, Senate Print Number 2957B, and ask 13 that said bill retain its place on Third Reading 14 Calendar. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar 16 Number 323, the amendments will be received and 17 adopted. The bill will retain its place on the 18 Third Reading Calendar. 19 Senator Marcellino. 20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 21 President. Can we take up at this time Calendar 22 Number 461, Senate Print Number 5965B. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3087 1 will read Calendar Number 461. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 461, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 5965B, an 4 act to amend the Correction Law, in relation to 5 the custody and supervision of persons in 6 correctional facilities. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Paterson, were you asking for an explanation? 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr. 10 President. 11 SENATOR GOLD: We are asking for 12 a very, very slow but accurate explanation from 13 the distinguished gentleman from Cornell. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Nozzolio, an explanation of Calendar Number 461 16 has been asked for. 17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. 19 Mr. President. My colleagues. 20 The measure before us amends the Correction Law 21 relating to the custody and supervision of 22 persons who are committed into the custody of 23 either a sheriff or Commissioner of Corrections 3088 1 or sentenced to state or local correctional 2 facilities. The measure is designed to 3 specifically preserve the responsibility, the 4 duty of maintaining the custody and supervision 5 of those persons committed to insure that that 6 responsibility is going to be continued by those 7 people most directly responsible to the people, 8 the local and state correction officers, as 9 opposed to private security forces. 10 The bill says that security 11 functions should be left up to those who are 12 responsible to the people and not linked to a 13 private sector profit motive. The legislation 14 can be termed stopping the wholesale 15 privatization of the correctional component of 16 our state prison facilities. 17 I may go further, Mr. President, 18 that a disturbing trend is developing across the 19 nation which I believe and those who have joined 20 as cosponsors of this legislation believe could 21 very well endanger the safety of our citizens 22 and place those citizens in jeopardy. In an 23 effort to cut costs, we see a misguided approach 3089 1 that turns to the privatization of the security 2 function of our jails and prisons. 3 Security is a fundamental 4 responsibility of government. Putting that 5 responsibility in the hands of questionably 6 trained and perhaps unqualified guards and 7 companies who employ them, which don't measure 8 up to the intense qualification, training, 9 commitment that we see in our correctional 10 facilities is something that I - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 12 me, Senator Nozzolio. Could you suffer an 13 interruption. 14 Senator Marcellino, why do you 15 rise? 16 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I seek the 17 apology of Senator Nozzolio for the 18 interruption, and this chamber, but we need to 19 call an immediate meeting of the Education 20 Committee in the Majority Conference Room. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 22 will be an immediate meeting of the Education 23 Committee in Room 332, the Majority Conference 3090 1 Room. 2 There will be an immediate 3 meeting of the Education Committee in the 4 Majority Conference Room, Room 332. 5 Thank you for allowing the 6 interruption, Senator Nozzolio. Please proceed. 7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. 9 Mr. President, as I was saying, 10 it is my strong belief that public protection is 11 a fundamental responsibility of government; that 12 putting the responsibility into hands that do 13 not have the accountability to our people is 14 something that is extremely, extremely 15 problematic and could be dangerous. 16 What our measure does is preserve 17 the correctional component as a nontransferable 18 responsibility to government. The duty to 19 maintain custody and supervision of persons 20 committed or sentenced to the state or local 21 jails is a responsibility that will prohibited 22 to be transferred to placement with private 23 security guards. 3091 1 That there is no question that 2 privatization is a good idea in some areas of 3 government. The profit motive could be a best 4 incentive to achieve a goal in an efficient way 5 possibly under certain circumstances, but 6 protecting the public is not one of those 7 circumstances, and I don't believe any of us 8 here -- any of us, on either side of the aisle, 9 would want to put their families' lives in the 10 hands of companies whose first and foremost 11 objective is to turn a profit. I believe that 12 is something who we -- we very much wish to 13 avoid and this measure would insure that that 14 will not happen in this state. 15 Also, we should take this moment 16 to reflect that those men and women who work in 17 our correctional facilities throughout New York 18 State are highly trained, thoroughly screened 19 and have the safety of the public as their top 20 priority. We should pause and give those men 21 and women, those very brave men and women, our 22 thanks and admiration for what they do day-in 23 and day-out under the most stressful conditions 3092 1 in the best of times. 2 This is something we should 3 certainly thank them for, and I know members of 4 both sides of the aisle in this chamber do just 5 that, respect and admire the work of our 6 correctional officers, our nurses, our other 7 personnel in correctional facilities. 8 Thank you, Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Gold. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. Would 12 the distinguished gentleman yield to a question 13 or two? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Nozzolio, do you yield? 16 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I would be 17 honored to yield to Senator Gold. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 yields. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Nozzolio, 21 is there any experience that we're drawing on 22 where there have been other states or prison 23 systems where they involve themselves with 3093 1 privatization such as you want to ban? 2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Senator. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Can you tell us a 4 little bit about where it was and what their 5 experiences were? 6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Just last 7 year, Senator Gold, the Immigration and 8 Naturalization Service was forced to cancel its 9 contract with a private company after a riot in 10 its New Jersey facility. 11 A government investigation found 12 that the company had achieved a cost savings by 13 hiring guards at $8 an hour who had not been 14 trained in handling emergencies. As part of the 15 efforts to achieve profits, the facility I 16 mention was understaffed, and its detainees were 17 denied even the most basic of services. In 18 addition, I believe there are other examples 19 that we would like to give that -- I know that 20 there are other stories, but that's the one that 21 comes most immediately to mind. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 23 yield? 3094 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 continues to yield. 3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 4 President. I will be honored to yield to 5 Senator Gold. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Nozzolio, 7 is that the only situation in America where we 8 have had privatization or have there been 9 others? 10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, I 11 believe there are a number of others. I don't 12 have as much date, time, location, performing. 13 I didn't know I would be debating this bill, but 14 there are others that I have been told exist in 15 the Southwestern part of the United States. I'm 16 not sure exactly what state, but I heard that 17 there were similar type occurrences in the 18 Southwest. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, are there 20 any experiences as far as we know where any of 21 the larger metropolitan areas in America, such 22 as Chicago or Pittsburgh or Los Angeles, et 23 cetera, have tried privatization, as far as you 3095 1 know? 2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Not to my 3 knowledge, Senator. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, let me 5 ask you a different question. You made the 6 comment that privatization might have its 7 place. You know, there might be places where 8 it's appropriate. Can you give me an idea the 9 kind of a situation where you think 10 privatization would be appropriate? 11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. 12 President. I'm not sure I understood all of 13 Senator Gold's question. 14 SENATOR GOLD: That's fair. 15 Sometimes I ask questions that aren't 16 understandable. Let me redo it a little bit. 17 All right? 18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 19 Senator. 20 SENATOR GOLD: For example, you 21 indicated that you are against privatization in 22 the area of your bill -- which I may agree with 23 you -- but you said you are against it because 3096 1 there are issues of people's safety, there are 2 questions of people being properly trained to do 3 that. Do you think that that kind of an 4 argument would apply to the issue of 5 privatization of, for example, some hospitals? 6 That I understand in one part of the state there 7 is a thought of selling off the public 8 hospitals. 9 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator -- Mr. 10 President. In response to the Senator's 11 question which I think is an important question, 12 but one that I am not qualified to answer. 13 SENATOR GOLD: That's fair. 14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Because the 15 foursquare review that we're providing here is 16 dealing just with correctional facilities, and I 17 really don't believe the hospital question is 18 certainly within this purview, and I'm not 19 attempting to privatize anything beyond -- or 20 prevent privatization of anything beyond the 21 security function at our jails, and hospitals 22 are totally another story, and I just would 23 refrain from exercising the debate in those 3097 1 areas. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. I 3 know that Senator Abate and others have some 4 questions, but if I could just make a comment on 5 the bill. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Gold on the bill. 8 SENATOR GOLD: I think that the 9 concerns that have been raised by Senator 10 Nozzolio and the concerns that have been raised 11 by Senator Abate, who has extraordinary 12 experience in this field, are really very 13 genuine. I believe that saving taxpayer money 14 is a legitimate concern of everybody in this 15 chamber and in this body, but I do think there 16 are some situations where the expression "penny 17 wise and pound foolish" really comes into play, 18 and the concept of taking these institutions, 19 which are difficult enough to manage, and 20 looking to save money in a dangerous way, I 21 think is very ill-advised and, therefore, I 22 would tend to be supportive of this 23 legislation. 3098 1 There was a study, and the study 2 goes back a long time, it's not a recent study, 3 but -- it was an experiment, perhaps, more than 4 a study. But some students at Harvard had an 5 exercise where a number of the students were 6 given the role of being incarcerated for a short 7 period of time, and some other students were 8 begin the role of being the guards, and then 9 they after a period of time redid the experience 10 with it being reversed; and the study indicated 11 that those people who were the guards were 12 acting out and being as difficult as those 13 people who were at the time in the prisons, and 14 the feelings I had from that is that that is 15 perhaps the way untrained human beings would 16 react in a situation. 17 And if I had my druthers as to 18 picking other kinds of employment for myself, I 19 think being a prison guard is very far from the 20 top of that list. It is a very difficult job. 21 It's a job where there are perhaps natural human 22 emotions that have to be restrained. I respect 23 very much, for example, the police department 3099 1 and police officers, but each day as people get 2 out in the streets more and more with their 3 camcorders, we see evidence of how human beings 4 act in a way that's human but yet nothing to be 5 proud of. 6 So, again, yesterday, I think 7 there were films from California where there was 8 a highway chase and the chase ended with the 9 pulling over of a truck, the apprehension of the 10 truck driver who was driving illegal aliens and 11 his being beaten by police officers without 12 there being any resistance. Certainly there is 13 no justification for dealing in illegal aliens. 14 The individuals who do that are certainly people 15 that I do not respect, but it is not the 16 greatest sign of what our society is that police 17 officers when they think they are not being 18 observed would engage in that kind of conduct. 19 Therefore, I think that being a 20 prison guard is very, very difficult, and 21 there's some human reaction to want to act out 22 and want to do things which hopefully we train 23 people not to do, and we like to think that 3100 1 under the system we have now we get a good 2 quality individual who is a prison guard and 3 does that difficult job. 4 I'm very nervous about 5 privatization as it comes to a lot of areas. 6 There has been talk of privatizing some 7 hospitals in the City of New York. That has 8 raised some serious questions with many of us, 9 and there has been the question of privatizing 10 within the prison system, and I think that 11 certainly, while you can have a debate on 12 hospitals where there are in fact private 13 hospitals that are operated even today and we 14 have public hospitals, I think there is a great 15 intellectual burden upon anyone who suggests 16 that we privatize prisons. 17 The example given by Senator 18 Nozzolio certainly is a deterrent towards doing 19 that. But as Senator Nozzolio says, there are 20 other examples and he didn't have that 21 background with him, except I do not believe 22 that anybody has tried this in the kind of 23 situations we have in New York State, and that 3101 1 would be relevant. If somebody did something in 2 the Southwest in the middle of the desert, I 3 don't know whether that translates to a 4 successful operation in the City of New York, 5 who are dealing with some of the kinds of people 6 we have to deal with in the prison system in New 7 York. 8 So it would take an awful lot of 9 data, evidence, precedent to convince me that 10 this was a good idea in the jail system, and I 11 intend to support the Abate-Nozzolio bill -- I 12 mean the Nozzolio-Abate bill, and I'm glad we 13 have a chance discuss it. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Maziarz, why do you rise? Senator Maziarz, why 16 do you rise? 17 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President. 18 On the bill. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Maziarz, I do have a list going up here, and 21 Senator Abate was next. 22 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Oh, I'm sorry. 23 I apologize. 3102 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I 2 appreciate that. 3 Chair recognizes Senator Abate. 4 SENATOR ABATE: Before Senator 5 Nozzolio leaves the chamber -- Senator Nozzolio 6 leaves the chamber. 7 On the bill, before the Senator 8 leaves, I wanted to be able to compliment him 9 for sponsoring the legislation, and I am very 10 pleased to be able to be a cosponsor of this 11 legislation. 12 When we talk about privatization 13 in the jails and prisons, this bill only 14 addresses one piece of privatization. It says 15 that the security function of the correction 16 officers should not be privatized and that 17 security function are the officers, the 18 captains, the assistant deputy wardens, the 19 wardens, whatever you call them in the state 20 system, the superintendents, should not be 21 contracted out for hire to a low bidder to a 22 private firm, but it does not say that 23 privatization can not take place for non 3103 1 security functions. 2 It doesn't say that food services 3 can't be contracted out or laundry services or 4 transportation or drug treatment or other kinds 5 of civilian functions. What this legislation 6 deals with -- and it's a very important piece of 7 legislation -- deals with those things that are 8 carried out now by peace officers. Let me 9 stress: Peace officers. 10 And I believe, as well as Senator 11 Nozzolio and other cosponsors of this 12 legislation, there are certain core functions of 13 government, whether that be a correction officer 14 or whether that be a police officer, because 15 they are both law enforcement officers, should 16 not be contracted out for hire, should not be 17 contracted out for the lowest bidder, nor should 18 we then jeopardize our public safety. We would 19 never think twice about whether we should 20 contract out for police services. Would we go 21 back into our communities and say we don't want 22 a police force accountable to the mayor, to the 23 county executive, to the locality, and we're 3104 1 going to let a private firm police our 2 communities? We would never think about doing 3 that. 4 Well, the jails and prisons are 5 like local precincts. The problem is many of us 6 have never had an opportunity to walk a jail and 7 walk a prison and understand how difficult a job 8 of a correction officer is. Let me give you a 9 sense of how difficult that job is and why that 10 person has to be highly trained, needs to be a 11 peace officer, needs to be held accountable and 12 needs to be the most professional person we can 13 get. 14 That officer is in that prison 15 and jail every day without a weapon. They don't 16 carry guns. They are there and some people say 17 running the toughest precincts in New York 18 State. You have convicted felons there. People 19 who have been recidivists. Some are lifers. 20 And they need to control that 21 jail or prison not with weapons which they don't 22 possess but with their ability to mediate, with 23 their ability to think quickly when there is a 3105 1 crisis, with their ability to negotiate -- all 2 the skills that are acquired by highly trained 3 law enforcement officers. 4 This is not a job that can be 5 done by a security guard that's paid $8 an hour 6 that is a temporary job. When they lose their 7 job because they misbehave or do not follow the 8 rules through misconduct or malfeasance or mis 9 feasance, to them, it's a loss of a job. To a 10 correction officer, it's a loss of a career. 11 There are many families that dedicate their 12 lives to correction as a career. Generations of 13 families have gone in and out of the prison and 14 jail system. We do not want to lose that career 15 path. 16 If we privatize the career 17 function that's what we will get. If we want 18 low-paid, unskilled, untrained workers, we'll 19 contract out. If we want to preserve the 20 integrity and the security and the stability of 21 our prison and jail systems, we must recognize 22 the job of a correction officer is a core 23 function that must be done by peace officers and 3106 1 cannot be privatized. 2 As Senator Nozzolio said, there 3 is a recent example and that was Esmore. It's a 4 private firm that was contracted with by the 5 federal INS immigration services to oversee the 6 federal detention center. It was a disaster. 7 Within a year, the contract was ended. They 8 thought they could do it cheaper. Sure, they 9 did it cheaper but at a higher cost. More 10 contraband was coming into the system. There 11 was increased violence. There was excessive use 12 of force; and when you have increased violence, 13 excessive use of force and more contraband, that 14 costs a lot more dollars in terms of operating 15 that system. 16 So what they did was: We will 17 pay these security people less dollars, $8 an 18 hour. We won't pay them overtime. They didn't 19 pay overtime. And, they said, we won't train 20 them. 21 It created a disaster. It 22 created enormous dangers in that system. And 23 what they learned, because they contracted out, 3107 1 they also lost accountability. They lost the 2 ability to provide adequate oversight. There 3 was little or no communication, nor would you 4 want to lose that communication if you ran a 5 precinct in your community. You shouldn't lose 6 that communication when you are running a jail 7 and prison system. 8 This is an important issue, 9 because as we're looking for scarce dollars, 10 people will be looking to see more and more how 11 we can provide services more cheaply. But I'm 12 suggesting that if we privatize this function we 13 get what we pay for. We will get an unskilled, 14 not career path, not a professional peace 15 officer, which is what we have now. That is a 16 very dangerous course. We should not even 17 consider pursuing this now or in the future. 18 This is, I believe, an issue that 19 is supported by most correction professionals 20 when they can speak off the record. They know 21 there is a lot of other ways to save dollars in 22 the system. When I ran Correction, I was given 23 the task of saving $100 million in a given 3108 1 year. There's ways of cutting costs but not 2 cutting security or safety and, yes, it's the 3 responsibility of prisons and jails to look at 4 how they can deliver services more economically, 5 do what everyone else is doing in the system, 6 but not jeopardizing the system itself. 7 So I urge all of you. This is a 8 bipartisan effort. There are people on both 9 sides of the aisle supporting this legislation. 10 It makes sense in terms of dollars. It makes 11 sense in terms of preserving the integrity of 12 the system, and I urge all my colleagues to 13 support this bill. 14 And just remember. If you are 15 not sure about this bill, ask yourself, would 16 you ever contemplate privatizing the police 17 force in your community? I know all of you 18 would say with a resounding no, "Of course 19 not." If you say of course not to police, you 20 must say of course not to correction officers. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Maziarz. 23 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr. 3109 1 President. On the bill. 2 I want to join my colleagues, 3 Senator Gold and Senator Abate, in commending 4 Senator Nozzolio and the Crime Victims, Crime 5 and Corrections Committee for their work on this 6 bill. 7 I've had the occasion in the last 8 year to visit two correctional facilities 9 located in my district, the Albion Correctional 10 Facility and the Orleans Correctional Facility, 11 and I have never seen a finer group or a better 12 trained group of individuals, men and women, 13 than the corrections officers who served in 14 those particular facilities. 15 And just as a further example, 16 Senator Nozzolio noted a couple of times about 17 the importance of training in this profession. 18 One of the counties that I represent, Niagara 19 County, just graduated its first class of 20 correction officers for its county jail, and I 21 would think that anything less than completely, 22 fully-trained -- and not only a onetime type 23 training but repetitive type training. As 3110 1 conditions change, as society changes, I think 2 we see the inmates within those facilities 3 change, and I think there has to be a consistent 4 updating of that type of training. 5 And as Senator Nozzolio I think 6 aptly pointed out, you are just not going to get 7 that type of commitment from a private company 8 whose only motivation is a bottom line profit. 9 So I just want to join my 10 colleagues, Senators Abate and Gold in 11 commending Senator Nozzolio. 12 Thank you. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 14 recognizes Senator Nozzolio to close debate. 15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 16 President. 17 I thank my colleagues, Senator 18 Maziarz, Senator Abate, Senator Gold, for their 19 discussion of this very important issue. That, 20 I ask my colleagues to focus on the central 21 effort here which is to insure security; and 22 when security is left to those who do not have 23 the first and last responsibility to the public, 3111 1 to the people of this state, that causes grave 2 concern. 3 Our correctional personnel across 4 this state in every corner of this state have 5 labored under very, very stressful, difficult 6 conditions and we reach out to them and thank 7 them for their efforts day-in and day-out on 8 behalf of the people of this state to keep them 9 safe and secure. 10 There is a commission on 11 privatization in this state, that's studying 12 privatizing a number of entities. That 13 privatization effort makes a great deal of 14 sense, but what we're doing with this measure is 15 not swimming upstream to that effort, not in any 16 way being contrary to that effort, rather we're 17 seeking out an area we believe strongly should 18 remain in government hands. Governor Pataki in 19 meeting with corrections officers a few summers 20 ago and discussing this issue with corrections 21 officers stood foursquare on this effort, which 22 is to insure that security remains in government 23 hands in an effort to insure that security is 3112 1 never subject to dollar signs, to profit motive, 2 and it is only concerned with the best interests 3 of the public. 4 That, we stand united in insuring 5 that the security function of correctional 6 facilities does remain secure and that we will 7 do all we can to work on behalf of those 8 courageous men and women to upgrade their 9 conditions, to make sure that there is safety in 10 the workplace, and do the kinds of things that 11 we should do as representative of this fine 12 group. 13 Mr. President, I appreciate the 14 opportunity to discuss this measure today, thank 15 my colleagues for engaging in the discussion and 16 ask for their full support in enacting this 17 measure. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 19 Secretary will read the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 23 roll. 3113 1 (The Secretary called the roll.) 2 Senator Leichter to explain his 3 vote. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 5 President. When the bill was called, Senator 6 Paterson got up and he didn't just ask for an 7 explanation, he asked for a plausible 8 explanation and, frankly, I'm a little 9 skeptical. Was that an unfair burden? 10 But I just want to assure Senator 11 Nozzolio that he indeed gave a most plausible 12 explanation for the bill, and I want to identify 13 with his words that privatization is not the 14 answer to all governmental functions, that, 15 indeed, there are many functions that government 16 should never privatize. 17 It tended I think the whole 18 notion of privatization to be sort of a facile 19 solution. Privatize and we're going to save a 20 lot of money, and government will be less 21 expensive. 22 I think as Senator Nozzolio 23 realizes, and he's told us, and Senator Maziarz 3114 1 also was very eloquent on this point, that there 2 are things that government can not and should 3 not privatize, and I submit it is not only 4 Corrections but that most functions that 5 governments perform need to be done by 6 government with the accountability and 7 responsibility that only government can impose. 8 Mr. President. I vote in the 9 affirmative. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 11 the results. 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 Senator Maziarz, we have a motion 16 we could take up at this time, if you would like 17 to, if that's permissible. 18 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Fine. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Okay. 20 We'll return to motions and resolutions. 21 The Chair recognizes Senator 22 Gold. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 3115 1 President, or Madam President as the slant may 2 be. 3 On page 25, on behalf of Senator 4 Oppenheimer, a distinguished member of this body 5 from the great county of Westchester, we move 6 the following amendments to Calendar Number 560, 7 Print Number 1338-A, and we ask that the bill 8 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 9 You want an explanation? This bill changes some 10 of the prior wording. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 amendments to Calendar Number 560 are received 13 and adopted. 14 SENATOR GOLD: I have just been 15 what we call "Velellaized". 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 will retain its place on the Third Reading 18 Calendar. 19 Senator Maziarz. 20 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr. 21 President. 22 Mr. President, at this time, we 23 would like to return to reports of standing 3116 1 committees for the Education Committee report. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 3 a report from the Education Committee at the 4 desk. I'll ask the Secretary to read. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook, 6 from the Committee on Education, offers up the 7 following bill directly for third reading: By 8 Senator Connor, Senate Print 6811, an act to 9 amend a chapter of the Laws of 1996 amending 10 Chapter 399 of the Laws of 1995 amending the 11 Education Law. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 13 objection, the bill is ordered directly to third 14 reading. 15 Senator Maziarz. 16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President, 17 at this time we would like to call up Calendar 18 S.6811, please. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 Secretary will read. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 645, by Senator Connor, Senate Print 6811, an 23 act to amend a chapter of the Laws of 1996 3117 1 amending Chapter 399 of the Laws of 1995 2 amending the Education Law. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Maziarz. 5 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Is there a 6 message of necessity at the desk, Mr. 7 President? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Maziarz, there is. 10 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Move to accept 11 it. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 motion is to accept the message of necessity at 14 the desk, the bill before the house. All those 15 in favor signify by saying aye. 16 (Response of "Aye".) 17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Opposed, 19 nay. 20 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President, 21 is this on the message? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: This is 23 on the message. All those opposed, nay. 3118 1 (There was no response.) 2 The message is accepted. 3 Senator Padavan, did you wish to 4 speak on the bill? 5 The Secretary will read the last 6 section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 8 act shall - 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes, I do. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Padavan. 12 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President, 13 this bill amends a law we passed -- or a bill we 14 passed last week which most of you will recall 15 because we had a considerable amount of debate 16 relevant to it. That bill dealt with the issue 17 of the chancellor's authority to suspend or 18 supersede community school boards beyond the 19 election of May 7th of this year and in 20 subsequent years, the logic being very simple, 21 namely that it would be inappropriate for school 22 boards that had been superseded or suspended for 23 valid reasons to be allowed to continue beyond 3119 1 May 7th by virtue of an election and 2 automatically to have those suspensions or 3 supersessions repealed. 4 Now, what this bill does, it 5 sunsets that law in three years, and what that 6 means basically and fundamentally is that three 7 years from now, should the situation replicate 8 itself, namely should there be a pending 9 election, and at that moment preceding it, 10 school boards that have been superseded or 11 suspended by the chancellor within his authority 12 to do, that we would have to revisit and do this 13 all over again. Now, obviously the sponsor of 14 this bill, the supporters of this bill, want 15 that to happen. 16 My attitude and feeling is 17 opposite to that view. It seems to me that 18 irrespective of when, this year or three years 19 from now or six years from now, a school board 20 has been superseded or suspended for valid 21 reasons within the authority and scope of the 22 chancellor as authorized by the decentralization 23 law in existence for 26 years, that an election 3120 1 of a community school board should not 2 automatically repeal that suspension. 3 And so for that reason, Mr. 4 President, I will be voting against this bill. 5 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 7 recognizes Senator Connor. 8 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 9 President. 10 As we were all aware, we enacted 11 a bill a week or two ago to confer some 12 extraordinary power on the chancellor, and some 13 members of this house were against it and some 14 of us voted for it with great trepidation. We 15 were willing to go and give -- under the 16 circumstances that have beset the New York City 17 school system in these past couple of years in 18 terms of governance, we were willing for this 19 chancellor, to give him the responsibility and 20 the accountability to do something about it over 21 the course of the next year, in certain 22 specified circumstances. 23 What made it extraordinary was 3121 1 the concept that where a board was superseded 2 that newly-elected board members elected this 3 May 7th could, in effect, be kept from taking 4 office for up to one year at the discretion of 5 the chancellor. 6 This chapter amendment which I'm 7 happy to sponsor will ensure that that 8 extraordinary power conferred upon the 9 chancellor only applies to this year's election, 10 and that before there's another school board 11 election three years hence, it will expire, and 12 if there's to be any other tinkering with the 13 election process, that this Legislature would 14 have to revisit the issue and at that time could 15 say, "Wait a minute. What good -- what good for 16 the children of the city of New York came out of 17 the tinkering that went on last time? Why would 18 you ever need this power again?" It either 19 worked, was successful in those certain 20 districts and we don't need this law, or it 21 didn't work and what's the purpose of a law like 22 this? So the effect of this sunset will be to 23 ensure that that power can only be used this 3122 1 year, one-time only chance -- a one-time only 2 chance for the students of New York City, but 3 not a permanent part of the law. 4 I would urge its adoption, Mr. 5 President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 7 recognizes Senator Mendez. 8 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President - 9 thank you, Mr. President. 10 Would Senator Connor yield for a 11 question? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Connor, do you yield to Senator Mendez? 14 SENATOR CONNOR: Yes, certainly. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Senator yields. 17 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator Connor, 18 I understand that the chapter amendment was 19 supposed to sunset after one year of us 20 providing the chancellor with the new powers, 21 but isn't this bill -- doesn't this bill state 22 that if the powers will last for three years, 23 why the change? 3123 1 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator, there 2 was no change. The idea was to sunset it after 3 one election. Actually, as a practical matter, 4 whether this sunsets in one year or two years or 5 three years, doesn't matter, since in that 6 three-year period, there's only one school board 7 election this May. So, I mean, it really - 8 it's really a difference without any substance 9 or without any effect. 10 As I understood the agreement 11 that I had, it was that this law that we passed 12 a week or two ago would only apply to this 13 year's school board election, and this chapter 14 amendment accomplishes that. 15 SENATOR MENDEZ: Will the Senator 16 yield for another question? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Connor, do you continue to yield? 19 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 Senator continues to yields. 22 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator Connor, 23 does -- this chapter amendment then means that 3124 1 the chancellor will have these extraordinary 2 powers for another three years and in the event 3 that there is another election, he would also be 4 able to supersede the board or not. 5 SENATOR CONNOR: No. 6 SENATOR MENDEZ: So it will last 7 for three years. 8 SENATOR CONNOR: It lasts for 9 this election only. The law will remain on the 10 books for three years, but the only -- the law 11 that was passed only applied to an election 12 year, which is this year. 13 SENATOR MENDEZ: I see. 14 SENATOR CONNOR: Before the next 15 election, the powers will expire under this. So 16 it can never apply again. 17 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, 18 Senator Connor. 19 I was very distressed, Mr. 20 President, when we passed that legislation a 21 couple of weeks ago, providing the chancellor 22 with extraordinary powers. I mentioned at the 23 time, Mr. President, that those extraordinary 3125 1 powers were not necessary at all because, 2 according to election law, the chancellor did, 3 in fact, have the power to start all over the 4 process and supersede whichever school board he 5 wanted to do, and that he felt it was necessary 6 to supersede. 7 I am sorry I am going to be 8 consistent. I voted in the negative for that 9 bill, and on this instance, I am voting against 10 this chapter amendment because I truly believe 11 that it is not necessary at all and that the 12 miseducation of the kids -- of the children in 13 the school system of New York is not -- is not 14 the -- the -- is not due to the policy-making 15 bodies that are the school boards of the 16 community school boards. 17 So, Mr. President, I vote in the 18 negative. Besides, I note for the record that, 19 although we're talking here about one election, 20 if I recall distinctly well, at the time of the 21 debate last time, it was supposed to be for the 22 chapter -- the chapter amendment was supposed to 23 last for one year, the powers to the chancellor 3126 1 for one year. 2 So, regardless, it doesn't make 3 any difference at this point, but I think it's 4 that we have embarked on a course that is - 5 that does not provide solutions to the -- to 6 improve the education of the children in the 7 schools of the city of New York. 8 Therefore, Mr. President, I'm 9 voting in the negative. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Gold. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I 13 voted against the original bill and, therefore, 14 I really am compelled to support this bill 15 because if I don't like the idea, I don't know 16 why I would want it to remain on the books 17 forever and, therefore, I would vote for it. 18 At the time that we took the 19 vote, there were comments made that there would 20 be a chapter coming, and while I never, in my 21 mind, ever questioned the sincerity of Senator 22 Connor wanting to have this on the floor and 23 passing it, since there are others involved and 3127 1 without demeaning anybody else, the point is 2 there are processes here. I was concerned that 3 we didn't do it at the same time. 4 I also feel very comfortable in 5 the fact that this bill is only affecting one 6 election, and the reason that I am so confident 7 is that while Senator Marchi and others have 8 really led the way to open up this process of 9 looking at the school boards and the elections 10 and to see what goes on, if we were to redo 11 this, if we were to have new elections, it can 12 only be by way of a process that required us to 13 pass a new law, and that law would either undo 14 this or include it, but the Legislature would be 15 involved in the process. 16 So I'm very comfortable in voting 17 for this, and I'm glad that since Senator Connor 18 was put out there on the limb, that the Majority 19 Leadership in the house has seen fit to take my 20 distinguished leader off that limb, and I hope 21 this passes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Montgomery. 3128 1 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr. 2 President. I would like to ask my leader if he 3 would answer a clarification question. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Connor, do you yield to Senator Montgomery? 6 SENATOR CONNOR: Yes. Thank you, 7 Mr. President. 8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator 9 Connor, in the legislation that we passed was 10 included the provision that any school board 11 member who was convicted of a crime, I 12 believe - 13 SENATOR CONNOR: That's part of 14 the permanent law. That's a different section 15 of the law. This doesn't deal with that. 16 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Okay. So 17 this does not -- that does not sunset. 18 SENATOR CONNOR: This only deals 19 with the supersession. Someone convicted of a 20 crime is removed and based on other legislation 21 that passed earlier, they are barred from 22 re-election. 23 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Okay. 3129 1 Because we included that provision, we - 2 SENATOR CONNOR: That will remain 3 part of the permanent law. This bill doesn't 4 deal with that. 5 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: That was 6 what I wanted to know. 7 Thank you. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Any other 9 Senator wishing to speak on the bill? 10 (There was no response.) 11 The Secretary will read the last 12 section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Marchi to explain his vote. 20 SENATOR MARCHI: Just to explain 21 my vote. I'm not wedded to the concept in 22 perpetuity and if there is a restructuring, as 23 Senator Gold pointed out, I believe that the 3130 1 approach and the rationale would be changed and 2 it would be treated somewhat differently, but 3 under the circumstances as they exist today, I'm 4 compelled to support this legislation and 5 looking forward to the day when we tackle this 6 thing on a broader basis, but I identify myself 7 with Senator Padavan's position until we come to 8 that point. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Marchi will be recorded in the affirmative. 11 Announce the results. 12 Senator Marchi, you wish to be 13 recorded in the negative. 14 (Senator Marchi nods head.) 15 Senator Marchi in the negative. 16 Excuse me. Results. 17 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 18 the negative on Calendar Number 645 are Senators 19 Marchi, Mendez, Padavan and Velella. Ayes 55, 20 nays 4. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 Senator Sears, why do you rise? 3131 1 SENATOR SEARS: Mr. President, I 2 wish to call up my bill 210-D having passed both 3 houses and not delivered to the Governor. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 5 return to motions and resolutions. 6 The Secretary will read the bill. 7 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Sears, 8 Senate Print 210-D, an act to amend the Penal 9 Law. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Sears. 12 SENATOR SEARS: Mr. President, I 13 now move to reconsider the vote by which this 14 bill passed and ask that the bill be restored to 15 the order of third reading. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 motion is to reconsider the vote by which the 18 bill passed the house. The Secretary will call 19 the roll on reconsideration. 20 (The Secretary called the roll on 21 reconsideration.) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3132 1 Sears. 2 SENATOR SEARS: Mr. President, 3 would you please place a sponsor's star on the 4 bill. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: At the 6 request of the sponsor, the bill will be 7 starred. 8 Senator Marcellino. 9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 10 President, on behalf of Senator Nozzolio, please 11 place a sponsor's star on Calendar Number 304. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: At the 13 request of the sponsor, Calendar Number 304 will 14 be starred. 15 Senator Maziarz. 16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President, 17 at this time, I would like to call up Calendar 18 Number 201, Senate Bill 1728, sponsored by 19 Senator Johnson. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 Secretary will read 201, Calendar Number 201. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 201, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 1728, an 3133 1 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 2 chemical agents and chemical agent weapons. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Johnson, an explanation of Calendar Number 201 6 has been asked for by Senator Paterson. 7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 8 this bill would legalize the possession of 9 chemical agent weapons for self-defense. We're 10 talking about mace and pepper spray. Not to be 11 redundant, but we've had this debate for about 12 six years now, and it's been approved 13 overwhelmingly every time. It hasn't passed the 14 other house yet. 15 Maybe some people feel because 16 crime is declining in New York City that we 17 don't need to be able to defend ourselves 18 anymore, but we do. There's still a million and 19 a half crimes each year in this state. About 40 20 percent of them are assault, rape, robbery. 21 People have no effective way to defend 22 themselves and -- unless they happen to have a 23 weapon. A lot of people don't want to use a 3134 1 weapon. Many people, particularly women, would 2 prefer to use mace to defend themselves, and 3 some have successfully done so and been 4 prosecuted. I don't think that's right. I 5 don't think anyone ought to be prosecuted for 6 trying to defend themselves. 7 You know, when I first started 8 this discussion, there were three states that 9 were not allowed to possess mace or chemical 10 spray for self-defense. Well, we hung in there 11 long enough and now we're the only state in the 12 Union, including D.C., which does not permit you 13 to defend yourself with a chemical spray 14 weapon. This is, of course, worse than obscene, 15 the fact that we're not permitted to defend 16 ourselves in this state. In fact, it's kind of 17 interesting. I guess it would be easier for a 18 lady, if she wanted to defend herself or another 19 person for that matter, to get a license for a 20 pistol. They could defend themselves with a 21 pistol because that is permitted under a section 22 of the law. It's difficult but not impossible, 23 but it's impossible legally to possess a can of 3135 1 mace. 2 I think this has to change. This 3 bill will change that, and I think everyone 4 ought to vote in favor of it. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Paterson. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. -- if - 8 Mr. President, if Senator Johnson would yield 9 for a question. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Johnson, do you yield to Senator Paterson? 12 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Mr. 13 President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 Senator yields. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 17 Johnson, do you think this remedy is enough when 18 Congressman Solomon believes that his wife needs 19 an AK 47? 20 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I 21 don't have my hearing aid on today. Could you 22 say it a little louder and more clearly, please. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, 3136 1 actually, Senator, I have another question. I 2 wanted to know what is available on the market 3 right now that would actually not entail the 4 passage of this bill. Are there actually any 5 sprays that a person could use for their own 6 defense that are on the market right now? 7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Oh, I guess 8 oven cleaner, you know, yellow jacket spray, all 9 sorts of thing you could spray in someone's 10 face, but you might really do them a lot of harm 11 and they're not very compact or easily handled 12 in your handbags. So I think this is probably 13 the best possible solution, Senator. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Very good, 15 Senator. 16 By the way -- on the bill, Mr. 17 President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Paterson on the bill. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Last year in 21 engaging in discussion with Senator Johnson on 22 this piece of legislation, I referred to it by 23 its commercial name, and counsel has been 3137 1 contacted by the counsel for the company - 2 which I won't say here, but it could be mace - 3 and we would just like to correct the record, 4 since there is no liability for statements made 5 here on the Senate floor, but actually we are 6 talking about what are really chemical agent 7 materials or pepper-based sprays. Those are 8 what may have a commercial name by that but also 9 carry other names of other companies who provide 10 this product, and I just wanted to set the 11 record straight for last year's debate and for 12 this one as well. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Farley. 16 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr. 17 President. 18 I feel I have to speak on this 19 bill because a few years ago, I put in one of my 20 newsletters, as we all do sometimes, a question 21 about the legalization of mace, and the fact 22 that I think at that time all 49 states had 23 allowed the sale of mace and the District of 3138 1 Columbia had not. Now the District of Columbia 2 has, but let me just say this: I received a 3 possible inundation of mail, particularly from 4 women. If there was a woman's issue, this 5 certainly has to be it. I received hundreds and 6 hundreds of letters, almost unanimously urging 7 the legalization of it, and the thing that 8 bothered me somewhat about it was many of them 9 were saying that they're already using it, which 10 I think is rather unfortunate because when a law 11 is not respected, it's generally speaking a bad 12 law. So here we have a situation where many 13 women still carry it in their purse. I can 14 recall Senator Goodhue saying that -- on this 15 floor that she was carrying it herself and 16 wasn't a bit ashamed of it, and I think it's 17 unfortunate that this Legislature -- and I'm not 18 speaking of this Senate because we had passed it 19 rather overwhelmingly year after year -- has not 20 allowed, particularly the women of this -- of 21 this state to be able to protect themselves with 22 mace. It is of a defective -- it is an 23 effective deterrent to people that would do harm 3139 1 to an individual, and I think its time has come 2 to legalize it. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Gold, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR GOLD: Will the 6 distinguished professor yield to a question? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Farley, do you yield to Senator Gold? 9 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes, I will. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Senator yields. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, first of 13 all, I understand -- I don't know the lines 14 exactly, but I believe you represent the 15 Schenectady area and surrounding - 16 SENATOR FARLEY: I have four 17 counties. I have Schenectady. I share Saratoga 18 County with the Majority Leader. 19 SENATOR GOLD: And could you give 20 us an idea - 21 SENATOR FARLEY: Montgomery 22 County and Fulton County. 23 SENATOR GOLD: -- Senator, the 3140 1 crime rate in those counties is pretty bad 2 compared to the rest of the state. 3 SENATOR FARLEY: I would say it's 4 about on a par with the rest of the state. It 5 hasn't, thank goodness - 6 SENATOR GOLD: If I could - 7 SENATOR FARLEY: I'd like to 8 finish answering the question. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, of course. 10 SENATOR FARLEY: I'd like to pay 11 tribute to Mayor Giuliani and the late -- the 12 police commissioner who just left, of New York 13 City, because the crime rate has seriously gone 14 down, which is rewarding, but our crime rate is 15 about average throughout the state. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 17 yield? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Farley, do you continue to yield? 20 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 Senator does. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, when you 3141 1 say it's "average", in other words, you mean - 2 it's about the same as it is, for example, in 3 the Times Square area of New York. It's about 4 the same as areas of Brooklyn and Jamaica and 5 the Bronx. Is that what you mean by "average"? 6 SENATOR FARLEY: No. That's what 7 you might mean by "average". I don't think - 8 I'm talking about statewide average. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Well, isn't it a 10 fact, Senator, that these lucky people who are 11 represented by you -- and I don't mean that 12 sarcastically -- are living in a relatively safe 13 area? 14 SENATOR FARLEY: Is that -- are 15 you asking me that question? 16 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Isn't your 17 area a relatively safe area? 18 SENATOR FARLEY: They don't have 19 the grave concerns that they do in some of your 20 urban areas. When I was chairman of the Aging 21 Committee and I was holding hearings in New York 22 City and Senator Markowitz -- who I don't see 23 him here -- in his district on some aging 3142 1 issues, guess what they were talking about? 2 It's all they wanted to talk about was the crime 3 threats and the fact that they really felt 4 endangered even though it was off the subject. 5 I realize that, and I'm sure that many of them 6 wished that they could legally carry mace. 7 SENATOR GOLD: If the Senator 8 will yield to a question. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Farley, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR FARLEY: Sure. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 Senator continues to yield. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, you gave 15 credit to the mayor of the city of New York for 16 his -- for the fact that crime is dropping and 17 I'm - 18 SENATOR FARLEY: And also 19 Commissioner Brattan. 20 SENATOR GOLD: And Commissioner 21 Brattan, and I'm delighted that crime is 22 dropping. It's a -- it's a continuation of the 23 policies of Mayor Dinkins because it's a matter 3143 1 of record that crime was dropping during the 2 Dinkins administration but, Senator, this bill 3 is in no way intended by you to sabotage that 4 effort on behalf of Mayor Giuliani, is it? 5 SENATOR FARLEY: To sabotage it? 6 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. I mean - 7 SENATOR FARLEY: I don't quite 8 understand what you mean. I think that this 9 would aid Mayor Giuliani in his quest to lower 10 crime even more. I think that if a mugger knows 11 that his potential victim has mace, they may try 12 another victim. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Or shoot him. 14 SENATOR FARLEY: I didn't think 15 you could carry guns in the city of New York. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, 17 you're telling me in your distinguished area 18 they can't carry mace but they do it anyway. 19 Senator, let me just ask you a 20 question. Mayor Giuliani who is doing some fine 21 things for the city of New York -- and there are 22 people who criticize him in other ways, but 23 certainly as a former United States Attorney, he 3144 1 came in with a law enforcement attitude and, as 2 you say, he had Commissioner Brattan and now 3 he's got the fire commissioner who is the police 4 commissioner, and he's very much involved with 5 crime issues, has the City crime statistics 6 going down and his representative, Robert 7 Harding files a memorandum saying, thanks but no 8 thanks. This is not for us. Now, that's why I 9 say to you, Senator, are you trying to sabotage 10 the mayor, and I know you're not but, Senator, 11 if the mayor of the city of New York, who you 12 acknowledge and you say is fighting crime and 13 bringing down our crime statistics, tells you in 14 a memo that this legislation will cause problems 15 in the City, why would you as a stellar member 16 of the Republican Party want to sabotage our 17 Republican mayor in his efforts to make the City 18 safe? 19 SENATOR FARLEY: Well, I am so 20 pleased that you are supporting the mayor of the 21 city of New York because - 22 SENATOR GOLD: Always do when 23 he's right. 3145 1 SENATOR FARLEY: -- I think that 2 you're on the right track in doing that, Senator 3 Gold, and I applaud you for that, but let me 4 just say that I think that the mayor hasn't 5 spoken to me personally on this. I see that his 6 memorandum comes from one of the police staff 7 members, is that correct? 8 SENATOR GOLD: It's from the 9 legislative representative, Robert M. Harding, 10 Director of State Legislative Affairs, and he 11 speaks for the mayor. 12 SENATOR FARLEY: Well, I think 13 that Mr. Harding is misinformed or wrong on this 14 issue. I think that this could really help the 15 crime rate go down. I'll put it that way. I 16 think -- in my judgment, I think mace can be a 17 very effective deterrent to crime. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, on 19 the bill. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Gold on the bill. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I 23 have been around a day or two and, you know, you 3146 1 can't help being here without getting reactions 2 as to people, and if I have to talk behind Owen 3 Johnson's back, I tell everybody he's a very, 4 very sincere and -- person, and I feel the same 5 way about Professor Farley, but the bottom line 6 here is that it's not only important as 7 legislators that we have ideas and we speak our 8 opinion, but as somebody told me earlier today 9 -- I was in the nurse's office -- she said, you 10 know, you have two ears and one mouth, and 11 there's a reason for that relationship. We're 12 not only supposed to voice our opinions, we're 13 supposed to listen once in a while. 14 Now, the mayor's office of the 15 city of New York is very concerned about this. 16 They say that "the proliferation of such weapons 17 in the city of New York would create a problem, 18 that greater availability would inevitably 19 result in the risk of lost and accidental and 20 unintentional and intentional misuse, the 21 discharge of nocuous materials in a crowded 22 subway train or in any area of congestion would 23 likely cause serious injury or panic." 3147 1 Now, Senator Farley, I can 2 understand that a woman walking alone at night 3 in a dark area would like to have some 4 protection, but the bottom line is that a great 5 part of this state -- which I was going to say 6 like it or not -- I know you like it -- is the 7 city of New York. We have a subway system, and 8 all you need, Senator Farley, is one woman or 9 one man getting a little jittery in the subway 10 because the person next to them maybe is of a 11 nature that seems strange to them. They take 12 out their mace, fire it off in a subway car 13 during rush hour, and you not only have panic, 14 you have injured people; you have a disaster, 15 and Senator Johnson and Senator Farley, it is 16 really not a joke. This bill comes in every 17 year and Senator Lack and Senator Spano support 18 it, as does the king of the Adirondacks, but the 19 point is, the City -- aside from just creating 20 an opportunity for debate and the same debate 21 every year, it's not going anywhere because the 22 Assembly, which is a real statewide party, 23 having real representatives from upstate New 3148 1 York and from the city of New York, give some 2 respect to the City administration even when 3 it's a Republican mayor which, by the way, I 4 think is fascinating because I wish that the 5 Republican Governor of the state of New York 6 gave respect to the Republican mayor and the 7 budget took better care of the representatives 8 of that Republican mayor in the city of New 9 York. 10 I also wish that people like Bob 11 Dole and Newt Gingrich and Jerry Solomon gave 12 some respect to a Republican Governor and didn't 13 try to choke him off in this budget process as 14 they are doing. I think it's interesting that 15 Congressman Solomon who, of course, is one of 16 the most powerful members of Congress being the 17 chairman of the Rules Committee, instead of 18 worrying about getting us money for the state of 19 New York, wants his wife, Senator Farley, to be 20 able to have an assault weapon because, in her 21 area, which I thought was one of the safest in 22 the state, she's very, very nervous but, Senator 23 Farley, maybe you should write to Jerry Solomon 3149 1 and tell him, don't worry about the assault 2 bill. We're going to get her some mace, and 3 maybe he can bring some money into the state of 4 New York and we can take care of our budget. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Maziarz, did you have an announcement? 7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes, Mr. 8 President. I would just like to speak in favor 9 of this bill. You know, we often hear many 10 times about this - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Padavan, I have you on the list. 13 Senator Maziarz, I thought - 14 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I'm sorry. I 15 thought I was on the list. That's why you 16 recognized me. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Maziarz, perhaps you didn't hear me. I asked 19 you whether or not you had an announcement. 20 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Oh, yes, I'm 21 sorry. There will be a Majority Conference 22 right after this debate, Mr. President, in Room 23 332. 3150 1 SENATOR GOLD: Excuse me. There 2 will be a Finance - 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: For the 4 benefit of the members, both in the chamber and 5 out of the chamber, there will be a Majority 6 Conference immediately following the termination 7 of this bill. I did have a list going. 8 Senator Marcellino. 9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I'll waive. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Marcellino waives. 12 Senator Padavan. 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President, 14 I'll be very brief -- is this a wave? You want 15 to start on that side? I'll be brief. I'll be 16 brief. Senator Gold's on the phone. I did want 17 him to hear as a loyal supporter of the mayor of 18 the city of New York, both times he ran and one 19 who would support him again when he runs for 20 re-election, I still have the prerogative of 21 disagreeing with him from time to time when I 22 feel that he's wrong and in this instance, he is 23 wrong. 3151 1 Most of us don't realize there 2 are thousands of men and women legally carrying 3 mace in the state of New York, in the city of 4 New York and throughout the state. They're 5 called postmen. They work for the U.S. Postal 6 Service, and because they're federal employees, 7 they're exempt from our prohibition, and they 8 carry it and legally carry it. So it doesn't 9 make any sense to me that if it's deemed 10 appropriate for postal workers to defend 11 themselves, whether it's against individuals or 12 animals, that the rest of this population should 13 be precluded. 14 And while the crime rate in the 15 city of New York has gone down and we've given 16 the proper credit for that, it's still very 17 high, and I might add that other parts of this 18 state, urban centers outside the city of New 19 York, in many cases, have not gone down, and 20 this is a statewide bill. So while we 21 concentrate our opposition here within the city 22 of New York, I think we must acknowledge the 23 fact that this bill relates to the entire state, 3152 1 and most states, including neighboring states 2 like Massachusetts allow mace, permit mace. The 3 city of Boston, with a very large urban center 4 and a large police force, has not had any 5 problems that were described by people who 6 object to this bill, and I don't think we'll 7 have any problems in the city of New York 8 either. 9 So for that reason, Mr. 10 President, I will vote for this bill. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Next and 12 last on my list is Senator Maziarz. 13 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr. 14 President. 15 I will be very brief. I think 16 this bill -- many times we hear of legislation 17 whose time has come in the state of New York. 18 This piece of legislation is one whose time is 19 long overdue. I agree with my colleagues on 20 this side of the aisle that I too support the 21 mayor of the city of New York, but when he's 22 wrong, he's wrong. He was wrong in the last 23 gubernatorial election, and he is wrong in his 3153 1 position on this bill. 2 This is -- I spoke before a 3 woman's group two weeks ago in my district, and 4 one of their top priorities was this piece of 5 legislation sponsored by Senator Johnson. 6 Thank you, Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Secretary will read the last - 9 Senator Mendez, why do you rise? 10 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. 12 Since Senator Johnson introduced 13 this bill some years back, I have consistently 14 supported this bill, Mr. President. I 15 understand that nine other states do make it 16 possible for women to use mace in the case of 17 being attacked. I don't know of any reason why 18 -- I don't know of any reason or any -- any 19 studies that do show that the experience with 20 approving -- making mace legal has been 21 detrimental in any way, either to police 22 officers or to anybody in those other states. I 23 think that this is kind of a simple protective 3154 1 weapon that women could use upon being attacked, 2 and I really cannot possibly understand the fuss 3 that is being made against this very simple 4 protective chemical. 5 So once more, Mr. President, I 6 will be supporting this bill. Judges do know - 7 do know the difference between using mace as a 8 protective device versus using mace to inflict 9 pain or incapacitate another human being, and 10 the cases that have been heard in New York, they 11 have very appropriately in a way exonerated the 12 women that have used it to protect themselves, 13 and this bill does, in fact, punish those who 14 are inclined or do, in fact, use mace to inflict 15 pain; in other words, that use mace for 16 aggressive rather than protective purposes. I 17 think it's a good bill, and I do hope to see the 18 day when my fellow colleagues in the Assembly do 19 pass this bill that is so very important for the 20 women of the state of New York to feel safer as 21 they go about their business in the City and in 22 the state of New York. 23 Thank you, Mr. President. 3155 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Secretary will read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 4 act shall take effect on the first day of 5 November. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll.) 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 10 the results when tabulated. 11 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 12 the negative on Calendar Number 201, Senators 13 Abate, Connor, Gold, Seabrook and Smith. Ayes 14 54, nays 5. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 Senator Skelos, Senator Farley 18 has a resolution. We'll return to motions and 19 resolutions. 20 The Chair recognizes Senator 21 Farley. 22 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of 23 Senator Levy, would you place a sponsor's star 3156 1 on Calendar Number 39. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: At the 3 request of the sponsor, Calendar Number 39 is 4 starred. 5 Senator Smith. 6 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you, Mr. 7 President. 8 I request unanimous consent to be 9 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 170 10 and also on Senate Bill Number S.6811. I do not 11 have the calendar number. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 13 objection. 14 (There was no response.) 15 Hearing no objection, Senator 16 Smith will be recorded in the negative on 17 Calendar Number 170 and also Calendar Number 18 645. 19 Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there any 21 other housekeeping at the desk? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's 23 no other housekeeping at the desk, Senator 3157 1 Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: There will be an 3 immediate Majority Conference in Room 332 of the 4 Capitol and the Senate will stand at ease. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 6 will be an immediate meeting of the Majority 7 Conference in the Majority Conference Room, Room 8 332. Immediate meeting of the Majority 9 Conference in the Majority Conference Room, Room 10 332. The Senate will stand at ease. 11 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at 12 ease from 5:10 p.m. until 7:25 p.m.) 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 14 recognizes Senator Skelos. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: There will be an 16 immediate meeting of the Finance Committee in 17 the Majority Conference Room. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Immediate 19 meeting of the Senate Finance Committee in the 20 Majority Conference Room, Room 332. Immediate 21 meeting of the Senate Finance Committee in the 22 Majority Conference Room, Room 332. 23 The Senate will stand at ease. 3158 1 (The Senate stood at ease from 2 7:26 p.m. to 7:40 p.m.) 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 4 will come to order. Ask the members to find 5 their chairs, staff to find their places. 6 Senator Skelos. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 8 if we could return to reports of standing 9 committees, I believe there's a report from the 10 Finance Committee. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is, 12 Senator Skelos. We'll return to reports of 13 standing committees. I'll ask the Secretary to 14 road. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 16 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 17 following bill directly for third reading: By 18 the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 6845, an 19 act making appropriations for the support of 20 government. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 22 objection, the bill is reported directly to 23 third reading. 3159 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 3 at this time, if we could take up Calendar 646, 4 Senate 6845. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6 will read. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 646, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 9 Number 6845, an act making appropriations for 10 the support of government. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Skelos. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there a 15 message of me necessity and appropriation at the 16 desk? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Move to accept. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 20 to accept the message of necessity at the desk, 21 and appropriation. All those in favor signify 22 by saying aye. 23 (Response of "Aye.") 3160 1 Opposed nay. 2 (There was no response.) 3 The message is accepted. 4 Senator Paterson. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 6 I actually have read the bill entirely, so I 7 don't need an explanation, but what would be 8 beneficial is if Senator Stafford would yield 9 for a couple of questions relating to Section 35 10 of the appropriation. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Senator yields. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 14 much, Senator Stafford. 15 I just want to make sure I 16 understand this. If a not-for-profit 17 corporation that is providing services under a 18 state contract and has provided these services 19 under the current fiscal year and continues to 20 provide these services through the month of 21 April under the state contract, isn't it true 22 that the not-for-profit corporation can receive 23 payment from the state under the contract during 3161 1 that time? 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 4 Senator. 5 If the Senator would continue to 6 yield. 7 SENATOR STAFFORD: Certainly. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Senator continues to yield. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: My 11 understanding, Senator, is that under the 12 appropriation that we are going to vote on in 13 just a moment, that if there were a hypothetical 14 situation that theoretically would -- would 15 involve -- the strings, Mr. President - 16 SENATOR STAFFORD: I'm very aware 17 of it. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: It's the first 19 time I ever stood here, must go with the 20 territory. 21 -- that if we're looking at a 22 state agency that wanted to relocate its 23 services to another place, that under this 3162 1 legislation -- under this appropriation it's my 2 understanding that they would not be able to 3 relocate? 4 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I don't 5 know as you could say it exactly that way. 6 Things could be done which can be done in the 7 ordinary course of business, here in the state 8 of New York. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Senator, 10 but a relocation would be not in the ordinary 11 course of business as much as it would be a 12 massive change. 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, we have 14 to define our terms and you and I know, for 15 instance, the reasonable man, the time we spent 16 in law school discussing what a reasonable man 17 is. It would take probably a number of hours. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, we're 19 certainly not going to discuss it now. 20 SENATOR STAFFORD: All right. 21 Thank you. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Paterson. 3163 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Therefore, 2 Senator, asserting the "reasonable man" test, if 3 there was any new initiative such as economic 4 development or consolidation of computers or 5 something like that, under the appropriation in 6 Section 35, this would not be accomplished 7 during the month of April under this 8 appropriation; is that not correct? 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: I don't mean 10 to be short here or to be flippant. I take it 11 seriously, you have a very serious question. I 12 just say again, as I said, when we pass an 13 appropriation, an appropriation will provide for 14 what can be legally done in the ordinary course 15 of business here in the state of New York. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Paterson. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I 19 would tend to think that, since we're already up 20 to April 2nd and we're talking about an 21 appropriation that expires on April 30th, that 22 an extraordinary circumstance would have to 23 occur within the next 28 days to use these state 3164 1 funds in that particular way, so I would just 2 suggest to you that that would be a rather 3 extraordinary sense or course of business that 4 would necessitate or be the catalyst for this 5 kind of expenditure. 6 So based on the fact that we're 7 really appropriating an extension, I would 8 suggest that it is most likely that it would not 9 happen during this time. 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: I -- I 11 certainly understand your suggestion. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Paterson. 14 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I think 15 this -- going along with the way we conduct 16 business here, I think I could continue and say 17 that we don't expect any of the concerns which 18 you have put forth. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Mr. 20 President, I guess what I'm looking for in this 21 particular situation is -- is clarity. There is 22 a need that we have to continue the work of the 23 state as we try to pass the budget as we 3165 1 promised the constituents we represent, the 2 areas that we serve. This is the reason that 3 the Governor originally brought forth this 4 budget six weeks earlier than he usually does, 5 so I think that we have to be absolutely clear 6 on this point that we would not be thinking in 7 terms of relocating state offices, all types of 8 complex new initiatives such as economic 9 development or any kind of consolidations or 10 taking state agencies and sending them to 11 different parts of the state. 12 So I would want to be assured 13 that that will not happen at least between now 14 and a very short period of time which would be 15 Tuesday, April the 30th, which is exactly four 16 weeks from tonight. I would -- I would want to 17 know that that isn't going to happen, and under 18 the legislation that's what I understand is not 19 going to happen, but I'm just asking the sponsor 20 if we could have a clear definition of the 21 legislation that is a message to us that it will 22 not happen. 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, of 3166 1 course, you know, it's how anyone looks at it. 2 As I said again, we don't expect anything like 3 that, but you know, one man's ceiling is another 4 man's floor. It's how you interpret things and 5 like this. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Paterson. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 9 if Senator would continue to yield, and then I 10 will yield the ceiling after that. 11 If it were the desire to move an 12 agency, if that were the purpose, if that were 13 something that was desired as a result of the 14 appropriation that we're passing here, does this 15 legislation make that possible; in other words, 16 is it provided in the legislation? 17 SENATOR STAFFORD: Where I'm very 18 encouraged, Senator, is what I am saying here in 19 the beginning I'm now being advised by my 20 counsel, so I'll again - 21 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Connor, why do you rise? 3167 1 SENATOR CONNOR: Perhaps I can 2 help. Perhaps I can obfuscate more but, if the 3 Senator would yield to a question, Senator 4 Stafford would yield to a question about this 5 section of the law. I'll try and clarify. My 6 goal is to clarify. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Stafford, do you yield? 9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Certainly. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 yields. 12 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator 13 Stafford, is it the intention of this section of 14 the legislation, and this appropriation, to 15 authorize any major initiatives involving 16 locations of state agencies or otherwise that 17 would not have already been authorized under the 18 law as it existed in the past fiscal year? 19 SENATOR STAFFORD: It is not the 20 intent. 21 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Stachowski, why do you rise? 3168 1 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 2 President, if Senator Stafford would yield to 3 one question. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Stafford, do you yield? 6 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Would - 7 Senator Stafford, would this section and that 8 appropriation provide that the scheduled 9 construction of roads and bridges in DOT go on 10 line and in a timely fashion so that we don't 11 lose the construction season as we did last year 12 under thea late budget? 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 14 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Thank you 15 very much. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Cook, why do you rise? 18 SENATOR COOK: Senator Stafford, 19 would you yield to a question? If I could build 20 on Senator Connor's question for just a moment. 21 Would it be accurate to say that this 22 legislation does not change the law as it 23 relates to the relocation of state offices, 3169 1 therefore, whatever conditions exist and have 2 existed will continue to exist exactly as they 3 have been? 4 SENATOR STAFFORD: I could -- I 5 couldn't put it any better. 6 SENATOR COOK: Thank you. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 8 any other Senator wishing to speak on this bill? 9 Hearing none, the Secretary will read the last 10 section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 17 the results. 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 Senator Bruno. 22 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, can 23 we call up Calendar Number 250 that was restored 3170 1 to the calendar earlier today? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 250, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print Number 6 5830-A, an act to amend the Environmental 7 Conservation Law, in relation to identifying 8 certain persons who may receive food fish 9 licenses. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Bruno. 12 SENATOR BRUNO: Is there a 13 message at the desk? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 15 is. 16 SENATOR BRUNO: Move we adopt. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 18 to accept the message of necessity at the desk. 19 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 20 (Response of "Aye.") 21 Opposed nay. 22 (There was no response.) 23 The message is accepted. 3171 1 The Secretary will read the last 2 section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 bill's passed. 11 Senator Skelos, we have one item 12 of housekeeping if we could take that up at this 13 time. Would that be O.K., Senator Bruno? 14 SENATOR BRUNO: Can we do that at 15 this time, Mr. President? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 17 return to motions and resolutions. The Chair 18 would recognize Senator Maziarz. 19 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President, 20 on behalf of Senator Nozzolio, on page 15, I 21 offer the following amendments to Calendar 22 Number 404, Senate Print Number 3731, and ask 23 that said bill retain its place on Third Reading 3172 1 Calendar. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 3 Amendments to Calendar Number 404 received and 4 adopted. The bill will retain its place on the 5 Third Reading Calendar. 6 Senator Bruno. 7 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 8 can we at this time call for a meeting of the 9 Finance Committee in Room 332. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 11 will be an immediate meeting of the Senate 12 Finance Committee in the Majority Conference 13 Room, Room 332, immediate meeting of the Senate 14 Finance Committee in the Majority Conference 15 Room, Room 332. 16 The Senate will stand at ease 17 awaiting the report of the Senate Finance 18 Committee. 19 (The Senate stood at ease from 20 7:55 p.m,. to 8:20 p.m.) 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 Senate will come to order. Members please find 23 their chairs, staff their places. 3173 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 3 if we could return to reports of standing 4 committees, to the report of the Finance 5 Committee. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Return to 7 reports of standing committees. Secretary will 8 read the report of the Finance Committee. 9 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 10 Stafford, from the Committee on Finance reports 11 the following bill directly for third reading: 12 Senate Print 6846, by Senator Velella and 13 others, an act to amend the Insurance Law, in 14 relation to the availability of multi-tier 15 programs for homeowners insurance. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 17 objection, the bill is reported directly to 18 third reading. 19 Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 21 at this time if we could call up Senate 6846. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read. 3174 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 647, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 6846, an 3 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 4 the availability of multi-tier programs for 5 homeowners insurance. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Skelos. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 9 is there a message of necessity at the desk? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 11 is. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: Move we accept. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 14 to accept the message of necessity on Calendar 15 Number 647. All those in favor signify by 16 saying aye. 17 (Response of "Aye.") 18 Opposed nay. 19 (There was no response. ) 20 The message is accepted. 21 Secretary will read the last 22 section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 13. This 3175 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Dollinger, why do you rise. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Will the 5 sponsor yield just to one question, Mr. 6 President? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Velella, do you yield to one question from 9 Senator Dollinger? 10 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 yields. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: You and I had 14 an opportunity to talk about this. I'd just 15 like to put it on the record. 16 As you know, my concern with 17 respect to the water levels and the problems of 18 coastal zones really relates to Lake Ontario, my 19 portion of Monroe County. My question is, 20 what's the geographic scope of the cancellation 21 and the withdrawal plan provisions in this bill 22 and does it affect the Lake Ontario watershed as 23 well? 3176 1 SENATOR VELELLA: The scope of 2 when a company would be determined to be with 3 drawing from the market would be determined by 4 their own book of business, and that would have 5 statewide application, so that if a company were 6 writing business on Long Island, in New York 7 City and up in your area, the percentage or the 8 20 percent or 500 policies that would trigger 9 the issue of whether or not they were 10 systematically withdrawing from the marketplace 11 would be based on the cancellations of their 12 total book of business, not just one particular 13 locality. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. So 15 Senator Maziarz and Senator Nozzolio, Senator 16 Alesi and myself, that represent the flood plain 17 up and around Lake Ontario, if we were to inform 18 the superintendent that we wanted to make sure 19 he kept his eye on that portion of the state as 20 well with respect to cancellations and a 21 possible withdrawal plan, would this bill 22 authorize the superintendent to make such a 23 finding? 3177 1 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. When the 2 system is triggered, then the superintendent's 3 investigation and determination of that is 4 area-specific. He will look at the area and see 5 if there is a withdrawal and call the company in 6 to file a plan and seek other markets or other 7 companies that might come in and write in that 8 market. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 10 President, on the bill just ever so briefly, I 11 appreciate the explanation of Senator Velella. 12 I also think I know that Senator Velella's staff 13 and mine have had a brief opportunity to discuss 14 an amendment which would deal with the problem 15 of wind-blown wave action and the impact that 16 that has on homeowners insurance. I know that 17 this bill is an extender that lasts for a period 18 of time. I hope that during the period of the 19 extension, we'll be able to look at that issue 20 more carefully and perhaps address what is a 21 significant issue in the Lake Ontario watershed 22 as well. 23 Thank you, Senator. 3178 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 2 any other Senator wishing to speak on Calendar 3 Number 647? Hearing none, the Secretary will 4 read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 13. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 12 is passed. 13 Senator Bruno. 14 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 15 there being no further business to come before 16 the Senate, I move that we stand adjourned until 17 Monday, April 15th at 3:00 p.m., intervening 18 days being legislative days, and all of this 19 being subject to call of the Majority Leader, so 20 that those members that are involved in the 21 process between now and April 15th know what 22 their responsibilities are and they will be 23 engaged in those responsibilities. 3179 1 Everyone have a safe and happy 2 holy day and holiday season. 3 Thank you, Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 5 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until 6 Monday, April 15th at 3:00 p.m., intervening 7 days to be legislative days, and subject to the 8 call of the Majority Leader. 9 (Whereupon at 8:25 p.m., the 10 Senate adjourned.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23