Monday, April 22, 1996

3556 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 April 22, 1996 10 3:05 p.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 3557 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will 3 come to order. 4 Will everyone please rise and 5 join me in the Pledge of Allegiance. 6 (The assemblage repeated the 7 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 8 The invocation today will be 9 given by the Reverend Jagow of the Concordia 10 Lutheran Church in Lockport. Reverend Jagow is 11 also chaplain of the Firemens' Association of 12 New York State. 13 Reverend Jagow. 14 REVEREND JAGOW: Thank you for 15 this privilege. 16 We pray, Almighty God, we give 17 You thanks for our respective communities. 18 Merge us into a common purpose of protecting 19 them and providing for a higher quality of life 20 in this great state of New York. In Your hands 21 lie the destinies of all persons, and help us as 22 fire service and legislators to feel our sacred 23 unity as members of the human family. Make us 3558 1 alert, vigilant and in concord as to our 2 services to our community. 3 May the spirit of love and good 4 will possess and control our hearts as we bring 5 blessedness to needy humanity and especially to 6 those who look to us for protection. 7 Bless the members of the 8 Firemens' Association of the state of New York, 9 fire service personnel, and especially on this 10 day, give blessing to the members of this 11 session of the Senate. May we all call it a 12 blessing and honor and privilege to serve. In 13 Your name. Amen. 14 Thank you. 15 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, 16 Reverend Jagow. 17 The reading of the Journal, 18 please. 19 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 20 Sunday, April 21st. The Senate met pursuant to 21 adjournment. Prayer by the Reverend Peter G. 22 Young. The Journal of Saturday, April 20th, was 23 read and approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 3559 1 THE PRESIDENT: Without 2 objection, the Journal stands approved as 3 read. 4 Presentation of petitions. 5 Messages from the Assembly. 6 Messages from the Governor. 7 Reports of standing 8 committees. 9 Reports of select committees. 10 Communications and reports from 11 state officers. 12 Motions and resolutions. 13 Senator Farley. 14 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, 15 Madam President. On behalf of Senator Cook, 16 would you please place a sponsor's star on 17 Calendar 544. 18 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 19 starred. 20 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of 21 Senator Libous, Madam President, on page 40, I 22 offer the following amendments to Calendar 191, 23 Senate Print 5724A, and I ask that that bill 3560 1 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 2 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments 3 received. 4 SENATOR FARLEY: And on behalf 5 of Senator Goodman, Madam President, on page 23, 6 I offer the following amendments to Calendar 7 430, Senate Print 4632B, and I ask that that 8 bill retain its place. 9 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments 10 received. 11 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of 12 myself, on page 29, I offer the following 13 amendments to Calendar 550, Senate Print 2084, 14 and I ask that that bill retain its place on the 15 Third Reading Calendar. 16 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments 17 received. 18 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you. 19 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno. 20 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam 21 President, I believe there is a privileged 22 resolution at the desk by Senator Marcellino. I 23 ask at this time the title be read and we move 3561 1 its adoption. 2 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 3 will read. 4 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 5 Marcellino, Legislative Resolution commemorating 6 the 26th Anniversary of Earth Day, April 22nd, 7 1996. 8 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 9 Marcellino. 10 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, Madam 11 President. This particular resolution -- and 12 Madam President, I would offer that this 13 resolution be open to everyone in the chamber 14 or everyone who wishes to be a co-sponsor in 15 our usual way, that we put everybody on unless 16 they otherwise indicate. So, without 17 objection - 18 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno. 19 SENATOR BRUNO: Please. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Everyone will 21 be placed as a co-sponsor. 22 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank 23 you, Madam President. Thank you, Senator. 3562 1 This is the 26th Anniversary of 2 Earth Day and this is one of the key days in our 3 history and, as environmental chair of the state 4 Senate, I rise to commend all those who over the 5 years have paid a lot of attention, expended a 6 lot of time and a lot of effort and a lot of 7 their resources to support our most cherished 8 environment. 9 Years ago when this resolution 10 -- before Earth Day -- when Earth Day was first 11 formed, you could see the air in New York City 12 that you were breathing and those of us who used 13 to drive into the City on a routine basis used 14 to joke about it, how tough we were because in 15 New York we could see the air we breathe. This 16 is not a positive. 17 It's a pleasure today not to be 18 able to make that joke. It's a pleasure today 19 to be able to say that the drinking water that 20 we drink is clean, the air we breathe is clear, 21 and the ground we walk on, the forest land and 22 the parks are being well protected and there 23 are many, many millions of people out there who 3563 1 are very concerned and willing to spend a lot of 2 time and effort to make sure that they stay 3 protected. 4 This resolution is to honor 5 them and to honor the leadership that has taken 6 steps to make sure that environmental laws were 7 passed and enforced that were needed and that 8 there will always be in the state of New York a 9 consensus that our environment is something 10 that is precious, it's the only one we've got, 11 and we must preserve and protect it to our 12 utmost. 13 I thank you. 14 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Madam 15 President. 16 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 17 Oppenheimer. 18 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I thank 19 Senator Marcellino for bringing this forth -- we 20 haven't had this in some of our past years - 21 this resolution which this year designates the 22 26th Anniversary of Earth Day. 23 And Earth Day really launched 3564 1 the environmental movement and our conservation 2 laws and there are many celebrations and 3 speeches and rallies going on today and actually 4 through the weekend, we had many clean-ups of 5 our beaches and parks all around New York State, 6 and I did want to note some things here in the 7 New York State Senate today. 8 The laws and safeguards have 9 done wonders for us. Our air is cleaner, as 10 Senator Marcellino has mentioned, our lakes, our 11 streams are purer, toxic waste dumps are being 12 cleaned relatively slowly, but we are proceed 13 ing, and our beautiful natural resources are 14 less likely to be exploited. 15 Now, internationally, many 16 nations are working together on environmental 17 programs. One highly noted agreement will 18 eliminate the use of CFCs -- that's chloro 19 fluorocarbons -- in a few years, which we hope 20 will reduce the damage which has occurred in our 21 atmosphere's ozone level. 22 Nationally, here in America, 23 USA Today reports that big steps have occurred 3565 1 in cleaning our environment in our country. 2 Ninety percent of us, which surprised me, 3 ninety percent of us do recycle at home; 71 4 percent of us in America purchase biodegrad 5 able products; 62 percent of us in America 6 recycle at work, certainly we do that here in 7 the Legislature; and 37 percent -- that's quite 8 a large percent to my way of thinking - 9 contribute money to environmental or wildlife 10 conservation groups. 11 America's business is also 12 responding. Many manufacturers are cutting down 13 on packaging materials. Between 1980 and 1990, 14 there was an 18 percent per capita decrease in 15 grocery packaging discards alone. 16 Preservation of raw materials, 17 our natural resources, is furthered by soft 18 drink manufacturers, for example, using one 19 example. They are using significantly less of 20 the raw materials in producing their containers. 21 Aluminum cans use 41 percent less material than 22 they used to; glass bottles, 43 percent less; 23 and the two-liter plastic bottle uses 21 percent 3566 1 less raw materials than they did when they first 2 came out. 3 Just downstairs in the Empire 4 State Plaza at our Convention Center, today and 5 tomorrow is the New York State Environmental 6 Technology Conference and Fair. It's promoting 7 development of environmental technologies that 8 conserve energy, prevent pollution, and conserve 9 resources that are needed for our future growth 10 here in New York. I've often said that envir 11 onmental protection and business development are 12 not competing needs. Indeed, environmental needs 13 can be an engine for economic development. New 14 York State's environmental industries presently 15 generate more than $10 billion in revenues. 16 If New York is looking for 17 global markets, this is the route. The 18 Organization of Economic Cooperation and 19 Development in Paris estimates that the global 20 market for environmental goods and services will 21 reach $300 billion by the year 2000. 22 I hope that knowing about the 23 scope of the green or environmental tide that's 3567 1 sweeping our world will give each of us a sense 2 of urgency about enforcing our environmental 3 laws, protecting our wild lands and open spaces, 4 refinancing our state superfund program, 5 enacting a citizens' suit law, and also Senator 6 Tully's pesticides reporting bill. 7 Concerning this last bill, 8 citizens have a right to know the type of 9 pesticides being used on their street. This 10 bill would establish an easily accessible, 11 computerized data base. There's a growing body 12 of scientific evidence linking breast cancer to 13 the environment. The National Cancer Institute 14 says one in eight women will contract breast 15 cancer and, of that, one-third will die. Most 16 Senators say they support Senator Tully's bill. 17 I look forward to it being brought to the floor 18 of the Senate. 19 Grass roots activism has moved 20 the environmental movement. We must not permit 21 a weakening of our environmental protections, 22 nor a rollback of these programs. We must 23 maintain them for our children and their 3568 1 progeny. Young people today respect the earth 2 and are committed to its care. We have one 3 earth and one last chance to repair all the 4 damage the preceding generations and our, my 5 generation, did. I certainly hope we don't 6 blow it. 7 Thank you. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 9 any other Senator wishing to speak on the 10 resolution? 11 The Chair recognizes Senator 12 Leichter. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 14 President, I commend Senator Marcellino in 15 bringing this resolution before us and opening 16 it up for the house. I think it certainly 17 expresses the sentiments that all of us have, a 18 commitment to a clean environment and to a 19 healthy and prosperous nation. But let me just 20 say, Mr. President, that it's easy to pass a 21 resolution but, of course, what is important is 22 to pass laws that will assure people clean 23 water, clean air, that there aren't toxic dumps 3569 1 that may be poisoning their children and 2 creating illness and death among our people. 3 If you would read, and I urge 4 all of you, a New York Times editorial today 5 which shows how environmental protections that 6 we have taken for granted are very much under 7 attack in the House of Representatives. We 8 cannot take satisfaction in what we've achieved 9 so far; and Senator Oppenheimer very rightly 10 pointed out how the American people and 11 certainly here the people of New York State have 12 committed themselves to a clean environment, but 13 I think that none of us should take an attitude 14 that we have achieved what we wanted. Maybe 15 about the environment one could say what one 16 says about freedom and liberty, that it requires 17 eternal vigilance. 18 Thank you, Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Any other 20 Senator wishing to speak on the resolution? 21 (There was no response.) 22 Hearing none, the question is on 23 the resolution. All those in favor of the 3570 1 resolution, signify by saying aye. 2 (Response of aye.) 3 Opposed, nay. 4 The resolution is unanimously 5 adopted. 6 Senator Bruno, that brings us to 7 the calendar. 8 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 9 can we at this time take up the noncontroversial 10 calendar. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Secretary will read the noncontroversial 13 calendar beginning with Calendar Number 507. 14 Senator Leichter, why do you 15 rise? 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 17 President. With the consent of the Majority 18 Leader, it's my very distinct privilege and 19 pleasure to introduce to the house a very 20 distinguished foreign visitor. 21 We have with us today the Consul 22 General of the Republic of Austria, my 23 birthplace, Dr. Walter Greinert, a very 3571 1 distinguished member of the diplomatic corps and 2 a very fine representative of his country. He's 3 visiting Albany today, and, Mr. President, I 4 hope you'll extend to him the greetings of the 5 membership of the house. Dr. Greinert. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, Mr. 7 Consul General. On behalf of Senator Bruno, 8 Senator Leichter, and all the members of the 9 house, we welcome you to our chamber, and hope 10 you have a most enjoyable, informative day in 11 the New York State Senate. Thank you for 12 joining us. 13 (Applause.) 14 Secretary will read the non 15 controversial calendar. 16 THE SECRETARY: On page 26, 17 Calendar Number 507, by Senator Volker, Senate 18 Print 6219, an act to amend the Vehicle and 19 Traffic Law, in relation to additional traffic 20 regulations in cities with a population in 21 excess of 250,000. 22 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 23 star that bill, please. 3572 1 THE PRESIDENT: At the 2 request of the sponsor, Calendar Number 507 is 3 starred. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 517, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 4039, an 6 act to amend the Social Services Law in relation 7 to the capacity of foster family boarding homes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Secretary will read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. 11 This act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 13 the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 bill is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 522, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 668, and 20 act to amend the General Municipal Law, in 21 relation to reporting information to the United 22 States Immigration and Naturalization Service. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 3573 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 2 bill aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 552, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 6314, an 5 act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation 6 to schedules of controlled substances. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Secretary will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 10 This act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 12 the roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 bill is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 553, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 1446, an 19 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 20 the designation of August 7th as Family Day, a 21 day of commemoration. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 Secretary will read the last section. 3574 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 2 This act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 4 the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 bill is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 554, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 2404A, an act 11 to amend the Public Officers Law, in relation to 12 defense and indemnification of employees. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Secretary will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. 16 This act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 18 the roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll.) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 bill is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3575 1 559, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 381, an act 2 to amend the Railroad Law, in relation to 3 requiring trains operating in this state to have 4 operable electronic voice communication. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6 Secretary will read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. 8 This act shall take effect on the 180th day. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 10 the roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 bill is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 565, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 4147A, an act 17 to amend the Transportation Law, in relation to 18 authorization of transportation to approve 19 funding for improvements to certain airports. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 Secretary will read the last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 23 This act shall take effect immediately. 3576 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 2 the roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll.) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6 bill is passed. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 571, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 1622A, an act 9 to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in relation 10 to assessments resulting from a small claims 11 proceeding. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 Secretary will read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. 15 This act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 17 the roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll.) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 bill is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 578, 23 by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 4117, an act to 3577 1 amend the General - 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it 3 aside. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 5 bill aside for the day. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 586, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 6151, an 8 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to 9 the officers of boards of education in union 10 free school districts. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Secretary will read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 14 This act shall take effect on the first day of 15 July. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 17 the roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll.) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 bill is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 610, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 474, an 3578 1 act - 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it 3 aside. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 5 bill aside. 6 Senator Skelos, that completes 7 the noncontroversial calendar. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 9 at this time, if we could take up the 10 controversial calendar. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Secretary will read the controversial calendar 13 beginning with Calendar Number 522. 14 THE SECRETARY: On page 27, 15 Calendar Number 522, by Senator Padavan, Senate 16 Print 668, an act to amend the General Municipal 17 Law, in relation to reporting information to the 18 United States Immigration and Naturalization 19 Service. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Padavan, an explanation of Calendar Number 522 23 has been asked for by Senator Paterson. 3579 1 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you, 2 Mr. President. 3 This is a very simple bill terms 4 of its intent. It effectively would prohibit 5 local governments from preventing employees of 6 those governments who would seek to cooperate 7 with immigration and naturalization agencies 8 when they suspect an applicant of being engaged 9 in criminal activity. 10 That, in essence, is the bill, 11 Senator Paterson. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Paterson. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 15 Mr. President. If Senator Padavan would yield 16 for a question. 17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 yields. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, as 21 you know, in 1989, Mayor Koch issued Executive 22 Order 124 in which it was his belief at that 23 time that any law-abiding individual interacting 3580 1 with an agency of New York City government 2 should not be investigated based on status of 3 immigration, even though there should be 4 cooperation between the New York City Police 5 Department and anyone from any criminal justice 6 service with anyone who is breaking the law with 7 respect to immigration. 8 The reason that Mayor Koch and 9 then inevitably Mayor Dinkins held these 10 positions is simply that there could be a great 11 harm, for instance, if an individual wanted to 12 come forward as a witness and interact with the 13 police or perhaps if an individual needed 14 medical attention, that there would first be a 15 determination, rather, a determination as to 16 their immigration status. 17 In your legislation, you assert 18 the reasonable test to determine whether or not 19 a person is here legally, as a legal permanent 20 resident or as a citizen or whether or not as an 21 illegal alien. 22 The problem with that, as I see 23 it, is that the reasonable test is one that 3581 1 opens the door for what could be the bias of the 2 observer or perhaps any kind of discrepancy that 3 would lead one to feel that an individual is 4 reasonably not a citizen of the United States. 5 So my question to you is, how do 6 you establish a reasonable test for this 7 discerning of whether or not a person is a 8 citizen? 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, 10 Senator, that would depend on the agency and the 11 degree of involvement of that individual in a 12 given responsibility. 13 Let me give you some real 14 examples. In the course of a hearing, one of 15 five that we held two years ago, we had an 16 opportunity to hear from the Welfare Inspector 17 General of the State of New York, who indicated 18 to us very directly and I would be glad to 19 provide the transcript of his testimony, that 20 there was widespread fraud by illegal aliens 21 within our social service system, fraud that 22 came about in a variety of ways, sometimes 23 forged documents, whatever the machinations 3582 1 were, they do exist, in his view, based upon a 2 number of years, many years of experience and 3 investigations he had conducted. 4 Now, after he presented a 5 considerable amount of input, he was followed by 6 a team of representatives from the New York City 7 Department of Human Resources, and I asked them 8 if they had heard the comments of the preceding 9 contributor and they said they had -- are you 10 with me? 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 12 SENATOR PADAVAN: Okay. They 13 said they had. My question to them was, "Well, 14 if someone is seeking to obtain social service 15 benefits, what process would you follow if you 16 felt that person was not entitled to them by 17 virtue of illegal status in terms of 18 immigration?" 19 The individuals went on to 20 explain what they would do and what they 21 wouldn't do, and so on, and pointed out 22 Executive Order 124. 23 My next question is, "Well, how 3583 1 many people in the last two years have you 2 identified, particularly in view of the 3 Inspector General's comments about widespread 4 fraud within the social services network by 5 illegal immigrants, particularly in New York 6 City," and the answer was none, zero. 7 It became very clear to me, and 8 I think it should be clear to anyone, that 9 Executive Order 124 has had such a chilling 10 effect on any intake line officer or line worker 11 within the social services agencies that they 12 make no referrals to anybody, at any time. 13 Senator, I would be happy to 14 give your counsel time to brief you, but I'm 15 trying to answer your question. 16 So, to continue, and I hope you 17 heard part of what I was saying because I know 18 you were distracted, what we have was an 19 executive order in the city of New York that was 20 initiated by Mayor Koch, and you accurately 21 described it, that precludes a person at the 22 social service intake level when they suspect 23 someone of not being entitled to social services 3584 1 because of illegal immigration status from doing 2 nothing. They are precluded from doing nothing, 3 anything. 4 Now, let me give you one other 5 example. One of the groups, one of the 6 individuals with a number of others from his 7 department from the New York City Police 8 Department, and as you recall, because I'm sure 9 you've read the executive order, it says that no 10 agency shall make a referral of an illegal 11 immigrant who has been a victim. 12 Now, it just so happened that 13 the day before, there had been a shootout in the 14 Bronx involving seven -- seven identified 15 illegal immigrants, a drug matter. Several were 16 killed, three or four were wounded. I asked the 17 inspector whether or not they had referred those 18 who had not been killed to INS. Obviously, they 19 were illegal immigrants based on police 20 department determination. His answer was they 21 were precluded from doing so by virtue of 22 Executive Order 124, and again I offer you his 23 testimony from the transcript. 3585 1 Another incident that occurred 2 that you may recall reading about was a young 3 man who was arrested for selling drugs, I think 4 it was in the Bronx, who was brought into a 5 court having been arrested, indicted. The 6 police officers and the District Attorney 7 apparently were aware of his illegal status but 8 they did nothing about that. They didn't even 9 share that information with the court, and that 10 young man was let out on $1,500 bail and within 11 a week, two weeks later, shot a police officer 12 and killed him, by the name of Sean McDonald. 13 And the response we get back 14 again is Executive Order 124 and Local Law 52, 15 which you may also be familiar with. Both of 16 these apply only in the city of New York. If 17 those very circumstances had occurred here in 18 Albany or any other part of the state, a 19 different course of action would have been 20 followed. 21 Now, the bill, as I said when I 22 described it, is very simple. We're saying that 23 no one who has a responsibility within any 3586 1 agency shall be precluded from making a referral 2 to INS when they believe the individual in 3 question has, one, committed a crime, or, number 4 two, is in violation of immigration laws. To 5 me, that's very prudent, it's reasonable, 6 because if they are in violation of immigration 7 laws, in this country illegally, and we have 8 over half a million in New York City alone, why 9 anyone would feel that a police officer of 10 whatever rank or social services line officer 11 who deals with applicants or any other agency 12 should be precluded from making that kind of 13 referral is beyond my ability to comprehend. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Padavan, excuse me just a minute. 16 Senator Mendez, why do you rise? 17 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. I wonder if Senator Paterson would 19 be so kind to allow me to ask Senator Padavan a 20 couple of questions. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Paterson, do you yield the floor to Senator 23 Mendez? 3587 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr. 2 President. 3 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Mendez, Senator Paterson yields the floor to 6 you. 7 Senator Padavan, do you now 8 yield to a question from Senator Mendez? 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 10 SENATOR MENDEZ: Two questions. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 yields. 13 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you. 14 Thank you. Much obliged. 15 Senator Padavan, I am sure that 16 you are aware that immigration is a function of 17 the federal government, is it not? 18 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, I 19 understand your question and I want to answer it 20 fully. Obviously, deportation of illegal 21 immigrants, the determination of whether someone 22 should be given asylum, a whole host of 23 activities fall under INS. But, we have an 3588 1 obligation as well, and that obligation is to 2 ensure that those benefits we provide to the 3 citizens and legal immigrants of this state are 4 not abused by those who are in this country 5 illegally and who are involved in criminal 6 activity. 7 Therefore, we are not ethically, 8 morally or otherwise in a position to justify a 9 blind eye to such activity. 10 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator 11 Padavan - 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Padavan, do you yield to a second question from 14 Senator Mendez? 15 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 yields. 18 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Mr. 19 President. 20 Senator Padavan, we are all very 21 much aware of the fact that you try very hard to 22 ensure that the taxpayers' money is used well, 23 and I think behind the motivation of this bill 3589 1 that we shouldn't, in my view, be discussing 2 here today, is that commitment that you have to 3 see that taxpayers dollars are well used. So, 4 you already agree with me that immigration is a 5 function of the federal government, you agree 6 with me on that. 7 My second question is, are you 8 aware that the law enforcement officials of the 9 city of New York are very, very happy about 10 Executive Order 124 because it allows them to 11 use some of those illegal aliens to provide them 12 with information to indict and, therefore, 13 deport a criminal that has been convicted and is 14 an illegal alien, so that this population there 15 has been providing a service to the law 16 enforcement authorities; are you aware of that? 17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, I'm 18 not only aware of it but nothing in this bill 19 would preclude that. If NYPD, in the course of 20 an investigation, wishes to utilize an illegal 21 alien for an investigation, say, drug smuggling 22 as an example, there's nothing to stop them and, 23 as a matter of fact, it goes on, to develop 3590 1 a cooperative effort with INS, with the Treasury 2 Department and other agencies to pursue that 3 avenue of investigation. 4 Nothing in my bill precludes 5 them from doing it; but, keep in mind the input 6 I got from one inspector who wasn't happy about 7 the fact that he had three or four illegal 8 immigrants who had been wounded in a shootout in 9 your borough whom he could not refer to INS 10 because of Executive Order 124. 11 SENATOR MENDEZ: One swallow 12 makes a summer? 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator - 14 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President, 15 my last question. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Padavan, do you continue to yield? 18 SENATOR PADAVAN: Are you on 19 swallows or summers or what? 20 SENATOR MENDEZ: No, no. 21 SENATOR PADAVAN: Go ahead, go 22 ahead. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: He's 3591 1 swallowing hard, Senator, but he'll continue to 2 yield. 3 SENATOR MENDEZ: One swallow 4 doesn't make a summer. 5 Anyhow, my last question is, do 6 you realize that through state law, you will be 7 giving additional duties to employees of the 8 city of New York to -- there could be the situa 9 tion in which they could be even interrupted in 10 doing their own job because somebody comes in 11 trying to find information about an illegal 12 alien, so don't you think that that would be 13 very disruptive, as well? 14 SENATOR PADAVAN: Not at all, 15 Senator. 16 One of our biggest problems in 17 terms of social services, one we're wrestling 18 with with this budget, as we've done a number of 19 years recently, is a limitation of resources 20 that is available to the people of the state who 21 are desperately in need. The prudent use of 22 those funds, I think, is our responsibility. 23 Now, if someone comes into a 3592 1 social service office and makes application, the 2 line officer who reviews that application has an 3 obligation to determine whether or not that 4 person's entitled to it, that's what we want, 5 that's why we have finger imaging, that's why we 6 have a new computer system, so we can determine 7 if that person is on social services in another 8 state. That's a responsibility we have given 9 these individuals. 10 It's totally consistent for one 11 illegality to be viewed in the same context as 12 another. A person who is in this country 13 illegally is not entitled to social services, as 14 is a person who is receiving social services 15 from another jurisdiction. 16 SENATOR MENDEZ: I have to 17 thank you for being so wonderful. 18 On the bill, Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Mendez, on the bill. 21 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President, 22 on the bill. 23 Senator Padavan is really an 3593 1 extra good Senator; the bill is not. 2 Three chief executives of the 3 city of New York, in analyzing this situation, 4 they have concluded that Executive Order 124 5 helps the police department of the city of New 6 York, that they have concluded in their wisdom 7 that this is a very necessary thing to have. 8 So, I don't think that we should go over the 9 judgment already expressed by three previous 10 mayors of the city of New York and start 11 producing chaos in some of the neighborhoods 12 where we reside. 13 So, Mr. President, I'll be 14 voting in the negative. Thank you. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 16 recognizes Senator Paterson. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 18 Mr. President. If Senator Padavan would yield 19 for a question, and this time I get to respond 20 to it. 21 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Paterson, Senator Padavan yields. But it's 3594 1 pretty noisy in here. Can we -- the members, if 2 they have a conversation that they feel they 3 need to have with their neighbor, would they 4 take it out of the chamber, please? 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 6 Mr. President. 7 Senator, Senator Mendez was 8 referring to the mayor's position on this 9 particular bill. What is the position that 10 Mayor Giuliani has on the bill? 11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Pardon me? 12 What is the position that Mayor Giuliani had? 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 14 SENATOR PADAVAN: He reissued 15 Executive Order 124. I think that speaks for 16 itself. If that had not been the case, then we 17 wouldn't need the bill today. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: No, Senator. 19 We've been having trouble communicating with the 20 mayor's office to find out exactly what feeling 21 is or whether or not they want to continue. 22 SENATOR PADAVAN: That 23 executive order is still in effect as determined 3595 1 by -- as directed by the mayor. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 3 Senator, I recognize the issue 4 that you're trying to address in terms of the 5 widespread fraud that may exist in the welfare 6 system. My objection is to how you're going to 7 address it in this bill. What would be the 8 system of verification in which it would be 9 determined whether or not a person is a legal 10 resident or a citizen? 11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, when 12 someone applies for services -- I've used social 13 services as an example because it's one we're 14 all familiar with -- obviously, a certain amount 15 of documentation must be given. If that docu 16 mentation is reviewed -- it must be evaluated - 17 is viewed to be suspect in terms of its 18 credibility, then obviously that's one reason 19 the person would suspect that the individual is 20 not qualified to receive those services. 21 However, as varying as the 22 circumstances might be, what we are allowing, 23 which is the case everywhere but the city of New 3596 1 York, is for an intake officer in any agency to 2 use judgment in making a referral or, at a 3 minimum, to issue certain, or to ask certain 4 questions that should be answered. Under this 5 executive order, that is virtually prohibited. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Paterson? 8 SENATOR PATERSON: So at a 9 point that a determination is made that the 10 individual in question may not be a citizen and 11 may not be a legal permanent resident or is in 12 this country for a valid reason, what is the 13 method of determining that from the Immigration 14 and Naturalization Service? In other words, how 15 would that work? 16 SENATOR PADAVAN: I'm not sure 17 I understand your question. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, 19 question is, at a point that an employee of an 20 agency has determined that some individual to 21 which they are interfacing has an immigration 22 problem, what is the next step at that point? 23 SENATOR PADAVAN: The next step 3597 1 should be and is in most jurisdictions in this 2 state and in this country a referral to INS to 3 verify the person's legal status in terms of 4 either a lawful immigrant or citizen or someone 5 who has obtained asylum. There are about 18 or 6 more different categories of where a person 7 could be in this country legally and thereby be 8 entitled to services of one sort or the other. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: If the 10 Senator would continue to yield. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Padavan, do you continue to yield? 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 continues to yield. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: So then 17 there is a fiscal impact, I would imagine, if it 18 takes this amount of time to determine this 19 information, and it also would take a lot of 20 time, even though the situation that might cause 21 the relationship to exist between the individual 22 and the agency could be what might be termed an 23 emergency situation, is that not correct, 3598 1 Senator? 2 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, I'm 3 not quite sure I understand your question. You 4 say there's a fiscal impact? Did you say is 5 there a fiscal impact? 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 7 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes, there is 8 a great deal of fiscal impact. If we accept the 9 judgment and the input from the Welfare 10 Inspector General, the fiscal impact, quote, 11 again, widespread fraud in our social services 12 service system, must cause us a great deal of 13 money. In terms of fiscal impact, it must be 14 considerable. Now, I'm not in a position to 15 quantify that, but I accept his judgment. When 16 he says considerable, extensive, widespread, 17 then that means something to me. 18 Now, the minimal effort that 19 would have to be expended by a social service 20 official in verifying legal status, in those 21 instances where it is expected not to be in 22 existence would be more than offset by the 23 savings from keeping such individuals out of our 3599 1 network. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Paterson. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 5 If the Senator would continue to yield. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 7 Senator, do you continue to yield? 8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 continues to yield. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I 12 am not disputing, I am relying on the fact that 13 you held five hearings and you have determined 14 that officials from different agencies have 15 reported, based on research, that there is a 16 significant fiscal impact to the City and to the 17 state that is being caused by illegal aliens. 18 That's not the issue I'm asking you about. I'm 19 asking you about the method in which you would 20 like to go about trying to diminish that number 21 and trying to make sure these individuals are - 22 SENATOR PADAVAN: Let me try 23 and answer this way. The same method that's 3600 1 followed today in every county outside the city 2 of New York -- Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester and 3 on and here in Albany -- the same methodology 4 they use. I can't be specific with you because 5 it depends on the agency, depends on the 6 circumstances; but the simple fact that this 7 state encourages, as a matter of state policy, 8 cooperation with INS and that has been precluded 9 in the city of New York by virtue of an 10 executive order speaks for itself. 11 Now, if you have questions as to 12 how the social services offices in Nassau County 13 or here in Albany go about dealing with this 14 issue, I suggest you ask them; but what I do 15 know is that they deal with it and I think New 16 York City should be dealing with it. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Paterson. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 20 President, if Senator Padavan would continue to 21 yield. 22 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. 23 President, I would yield to one more question. 3601 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 yields to one more question, Senator Paterson. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, let 4 me, since I wouldn't know which of the myriad 5 questions would be the one you would want to 6 answer, let me suggest to you a way in which I 7 think the goal that you're trying to accomplish 8 could be achieved but would have a different 9 effect on the citizenry, the people who are not 10 illegal aliens in the City. 11 What if we address this issue as 12 a public policy matter and we addressed it in a 13 fashion in which we had the Immigration and 14 Naturalization Service interface with these 15 particular agencies and actually come into the 16 agencies for purposes of investigating so that 17 rather than having people who are relying on a 18 test that you call reasonable but are actually 19 not trained in the field are, in a sense, being 20 turned into immigration officers when that's not 21 what they came to these agencies to do, they're 22 police officers, they are case workers for 23 social services, they are health care workers. 3602 1 Why don't we just bring the Immigration and 2 Naturalization Service in and try and address 3 the problem by having a public policy 4 interfacing of the actual agencies than to have 5 people who live in the city of New York, who pay 6 taxes, who are citizens and are legal permanent 7 residents or are in some way living in the City 8 but are not illegal aliens subjected to what may 9 be a standard that has been demonstrated by 10 other research, some by the Governor of this 11 state, that shows that in these types of 12 situations where subjective determinations are 13 made that we are actually having bias creeping 14 into the actual issue. If a person has an 15 accent, if a person looks as though they were 16 born on foreign soil, I don't know that anyone 17 should be jumping to the conclusion that they 18 are an illegal alien. 19 So why don't we bring the people 20 who know better, why aren't we deferring to the 21 professionals in this field rather than getting 22 everybody who works for the city of New York and 23 turning them into an immigration officer. 3603 1 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, your 2 question has a number of premises to it that I 3 find - 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, I only 5 had one question, so I had to put a lot of 6 premises in it to get an answer. 7 SENATOR PADAVAN: It has a number 8 of -- there is a certain texture to it that 9 makes it somewhat difficult to answer. 10 In the first place, we are not 11 turning every City official into an Immigration 12 and Naturalization officer, that is not our 13 intent, nor could it be. What we're saying, 14 very directly and I'm repeating myself, I know, 15 but apparently my earlier responses didn't get 16 through, what we're saying is that an illegality 17 is an illegality. If someone is seeking 18 services and is guilty of having committed a 19 crime, whether that crime is having come into 20 our city or state, our country, illegally, or 21 any other crime, we should not ignore it. 22 Now, in regard to your specific 23 question, in our dialogue with the regional 3604 1 director of the Immigration and Naturalization 2 Services covering the New York area, there was 3 every indication on his part of a willingness to 4 cooperate with all City agencies -- Corrections, 5 Social Services, NYPD, prosecutors -- and 6 indeed, in many instances that does occur. 7 Now, the placement, however, of 8 an INS individual in every City office where 9 these problems might occur would be an 10 impractical matter, but the offer and the desire 11 for cooperation already exists as they, 12 themselves, have stated; but it's a two-way 13 street. If there is going to be cooperation, 14 then City agencies or at least those individuals 15 within those agencies that have a particular 16 responsibility are going to have to seek that 17 cooperation. INS cannot be in a position of 18 knowing what's going on in various agencies 19 throughout the city of New York, and several 20 examples I gave you. 21 So to answer your question, I 22 think it would be impractical for us to expect 23 INS to place an individual at every social 3605 1 services office in this state; but certainly 2 they're there and willing and able and anxious 3 to cooperate in every way possible. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 5 Senator Padavan. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Paterson. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 9 President, on the bill. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sir. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 12 Padavan illustrated to us what he considers, 13 through a number of pieces of legislation that 14 he's offered, to be a very serious problem. We 15 tried to offer him an alternative and he feels 16 that the alternative isn't practical; in fact, 17 he interprets the alternative to mean that we 18 should place employees of the Immigration and 19 Naturalization Service in the offices of each 20 agency. This is not what we're proposing and, 21 as a matter of fact, by Senator Padavan's own 22 words, he demonstrates that we wouldn't even 23 really be doing that with the employees right 3606 1 now when he amplified on his remarks to say that 2 he didn't want to turn every employee of the 3 city of New York into an Immigration and 4 Naturalization officer. 5 What we're saying is that there 6 has to be a way that the heads of the agencies 7 can interact without having personnel who do not 8 specialize in this field making a review that 9 could jeopardize citizens and legal permanent 10 residents who happen to hail from a foreign soil 11 or happen to have an accent or some affectation 12 that would be similar but not indicative that 13 they are an illegal alien and that kind of 14 situation happens to people, it causes people 15 who have information not to come forward, it 16 causes individuals who would be witnesses to a 17 crime and help our police department, to be 18 unwilling to. It is a serious situation in the 19 health care industry when people who need 20 service don't require it, who, when their family 21 members who may be citizens need service, they 22 don't come forward because they're afraid that 23 they are going to be investigated. 3607 1 Senator Padavan continues to 2 recite the bill of particulars of the problems 3 that are caused by illegal aliens and that is 4 certainly something that needs to be addressed. 5 However, when it comes to the 6 actual application of how to change the problem, 7 he only sees this piece of legislation as the 8 answer, he only sees getting a great number of 9 people who do not specialize in this field to 10 make a subjective determination under a fairness 11 doctrine tha isn't even described. What would 12 the fairness be? It would be that certain 13 documentation doesn't seem to be in compliance? 14 Well, that wouldn't change the fact that there 15 are people who have fraudulent documents. 16 There's got to be some definition of how the 17 interpretation is being made, and I don't think 18 that Senator Padavan's explanation of what it 19 would be is complete. 20 And so on the bill, we recommend 21 that the bill not pass the house, primarily 22 because it seems to me, Mr. President, that 23 there are other solutions that could be sought 3608 1 to address something that Senator Padavan has 2 illustrated is a serious problem, but there are 3 a number of ways in which our agencies can 4 interact without changing the spirit of what 5 some of our agencies' mission is. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair 7 recognizes Senator Espada. 8 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, Mr. 9 President. It was Congresswoman, the late and 10 great former Congresswoman, Barbara Jordan, 11 who said that if California was foolish enough 12 to pass resolution or Proposition 187, it would 13 set its own house on fire. And again, through a 14 series of bills here, Senator Padavan seeks to 15 turn New York City and New York State on fire. 16 I won't look into the regulatory 17 aspects of it, the impracticalities of it, the 18 fiscal irresponsibility of it, but just to ask a 19 couple of questions on the human side of the 20 issue, if you permit me, Senator Padavan. 21 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, your 22 characterization at the outset I find offensive, 23 to say the least. However, I'll yield to one 3609 1 question. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 yields for one question, Senator Espada 4 SENATOR ESPADA: Well, your 5 limiting debate on this is offensive to me. 6 SENATOR PADAVAN: I'll answer 7 one question. 8 SENATOR ESPADA: And that's 9 your prerogative to insult this body in that 10 fashion by limiting debate on such a matter, but 11 we all take personal, political and emotional 12 pride in the bills that we sponsor; we should 13 also have the backbone to defend them on the 14 floor as long as it takes to do that. Some of 15 us have a limitation on that. 16 Now, you would praise the bill 17 for what it would do to the taxpayers; I ask you 18 one simple question about what it would do to a 19 child who has the misfortune of having an 20 illegal parent who has to go to the hospital for 21 immunization or for another emergent matter. I 22 would ask you to explain and to justify what it 23 would do to someone that would feel harassed 3610 1 under this law because, in fact, Executive Order 2 124 was not set up to protect illegal immigrants 3 but, in fact, was set up to protect American 4 citizens and permanent residents. 5 Violation of civil rights has 6 been a natural outcome of some of these 7 measures, so in all of these very human ways, 8 from children that would not be able to be 9 vaccinated, from people that would be harassed 10 and their civil rights violated, why don't we 11 deal as a responsible legislature with some of 12 those outcomes and not make believe they don't 13 exist because, in fact, they do exist. They are 14 natural outcomes of laws and bills like the ones 15 that you have initiated and debated on this 16 floor, without limitation, I would recall. 17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. 18 President, I'm not sure what the question was. 19 SENATOR ESPADA: The question 20 is, if your bill passed, children would be 21 denied the public health benefits of being 22 immunized because if I'm an illegal parent or if 23 I'm a legal permanent resident or if I look the 3611 1 way I look, I don't want to get harassed I don't 2 want to be interviewed by the social service 3 agent, I want my child to get care; and if I'm 4 aware of that, I may decide not to go to the 5 public health institution. I may be sitting at 6 my desk and somebody says, "Today you look like 7 an illegal Mexican," and so I would have to 8 respond by showing papers and having to deal 9 with that reality. 10 The public servants and the 11 hospitals and social service agencies don't want 12 the job that you want to assign to them. In 13 fact, in California, they have a pledge of 14 resistance against these kinds of initiatives 15 because it's against and runs contrary to their 16 professional ethics. 17 So the question I ask you is one 18 that's based on real people's feelings and on 19 the people that have to execute this kind of a 20 law is how do you deal with me as a person that 21 doesn't want to be interviewed at the hospital? 22 I'm a Puerto Rican, I'm an American citizen 23 before maybe you or some of your family members 3612 1 were, and now I have to go in there and I have 2 to be treated like a second class citizen to 3 prove my citizenship. I decide to stay home and 4 Johnny two-year old, three-year old does not get 5 immunized. 6 On and on it goes with this kind 7 of trilogy or series of bills that you've 8 introduced. I'm saying focus in on the 9 outcomes as any responsible legislator should. 10 Deal with some of that for us, please. 11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, 12 Senator, let me answer your question directly. 13 As someone yourself, I know you are involved in 14 public health, you know that a person arrives at 15 a clinic or a hospital, irrespective, is 16 interviewed when they arrive there, if for no 17 other reason to get their name and address. 18 They are asked certain basic questions: "Do you 19 have insurance," is usually the first one. So, 20 the question of being interviewed is not unique 21 to this particular subject area, it's standard 22 procedure, no matter who you have. 23 Now, in regard to an illegal 3613 1 alien, the child that you mentioned who comes to 2 a city hospital seeking care and treatment, 3 you're well aware of the fact that under federal 4 law, such treatment must be provided, 5 irrespective of the immigration status. Whether 6 you're here illegally or otherwise, such health 7 care cannot be denied. That's why in the state 8 of New York we have one of the largest bad debt 9 and charity pool allocations of any state on a 10 per capita basis in the nation because they all 11 fall in that category, they don't have 12 insurance, they don't qualify for Medicaid, 13 because they're there and they are cared for. 14 So, therefore, the scenario that 15 you outlined is simply not applicable, they 16 would be entitled to and would receive, as is 17 the case today, health care. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Espada. 20 SENATOR ESPADA: If I may, on 21 the bill. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Espada, on the bill. 3614 1 SENATOR ESPADA: Clearly, we 2 have attempted to have a de facto system of 3 immigration verification, detection. We make - 4 every responsible professional out there, 5 whether you're a teacher, you're in SUNY, you're 6 in CUNY, you're in a public hospital facility, 7 we make them an INS agent, if we go the full 8 Padavan route. 9 His reality on this issue could 10 never be my reality on this issue, it is not the 11 reality of the mayor of the city of New York, it 12 is not the reality, as far as I know, of the 13 Governor of the state of New York, all of whom 14 refused to embark and campaign on this 15 immigration bashing kind of scenario that we 16 find ourselves all too often involved in in 17 these chambers. 18 So, for all of those reasons, 19 never even considering the fact that the great 20 Constitution of this state would prohibit such a 21 law from actually going into practice, I ask my 22 colleagues to please vote this down. Thank you 23 so much. 3615 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 2 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill? 3 (There was no response) 4 Hearing none, the Secretary will 5 read the last section. 6 Senator Paterson. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 8 President, we'd like a slow roll call on this 9 bill. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hang 11 on. Let me get to that stage. 12 The Secretary will call the 13 roll. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the 19 roll.) 20 Senator Paterson, you're asking 21 a slow roll. If the five members in the chamber 22 who are requesting that would stand, please. 23 One, two, three, four -- there are five. 3616 1 The Secretary will call the roll 2 slowly. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 4 SENATOR ABATE: No. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Alesi. 6 SENATOR ALESI: Yes. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Babbush. 9 (There was no response.) 10 Senator Bruno. 11 (Affirmative indication.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor. 13 (Negative indication.) 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook. 15 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 DeFrancisco. 18 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator 20 DiCarlo. 21 (There was no response.) 22 Senator Dollinger. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. 3617 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 2 SENATOR ESPADA: No. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley. 4 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold. 6 (There was no response.) 7 Senator Gonzalez. 8 SENATOR GONZALEZ: No. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator 10 Goodman. 11 (There was no response.) 12 Senator Hannon. 13 (There was no response.) 14 Senator Hoblock. 15 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Hoffmann. 18 (There was no response.) 19 Senator Holland. 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator 22 Johnson. 23 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye. 3618 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2 Kruger. 3 SENATOR KRUGER: No. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Aye. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 Lachman. 8 SENATOR LACHMAN: No. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack. 10 SENATOR LACK: Aye. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin. 12 (There was no response.) 13 Senator LaValle. 14 SENATOR LaVALLE: Aye. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator 16 Leibell. 17 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator 19 Leichter. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: No. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy. 22 SENATOR LEVY: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator 3619 1 Libous. 2 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator 4 Maltese. 5 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 Marcellino. 8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 10 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator 12 Markowitz. 13 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz. 15 16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez. 18 SENATOR MENDEZ: No. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator 20 Montgomery. 21 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula. 23 SENATOR NANULA: No. 3620 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2 Nozzolio. 3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator 5 Onorato. 6 SENATOR ONORATO: Aye. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Oppenheimer. 9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Yes. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator 11 Padavan. 12 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator 14 Paterson. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: No. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present. 17 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 19 SENATOR RATH: Aye. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 21 SENATOR SALAND: Aye. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator 23 Santiago. 3621 1 (There was no response.) 2 Senator Seabrook. 3 SENATOR SEABROOK: No. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears. 5 SENATOR SEARS: Aye. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward. 7 (There was no response.) 8 Senator Skelos. 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Aye. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 11 SENATOR SMITH: No. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 13 (There was no response.) 14 Senator Stachowski. 15 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Yes. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Stafford. 18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator 20 Stavisky. 21 (There was no response.) 22 Senator Trunzo. 23 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes. 3622 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully. 2 SENATOR TULLY: Aye. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator 4 Velella. 5 (There was no response.) 6 Senator Volker. 7 (There was no response.) 8 Senator Waldon. 9 SENATOR WALDON: No. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright. 11 (There was no response.) 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 13 the absentees. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator 15 Babbush. 16 (There was no response.) 17 Senator DiCarlo. 18 SENATOR DiCARLO: Aye. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold. 20 (Affirmative indication.) 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold in 22 the affirmative. 23 Senator Goodman. 3623 1 SENATOR GOODMAN: Yes. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon. 3 SENATOR HANNON: Aye. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator 5 Hoffmann. 6 (There was no response.) 7 Senator Larkin. 8 (There was no response.) 9 Senator Santiago. 10 (There was no response.) 11 Senator Seward. 12 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 14 (There was no response.) 15 Senator Stavisky. 16 SENATOR STAVISKY: No. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker. 18 (There was no response.) 19 Senator Wright. 20 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker. 22 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 3624 1 Announce the results. 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40, nays 3 16. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 5 bill is passed. 6 Secretary will continue to call 7 the controversial calendar. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 610, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 474, an 10 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to the 11 possession of noxious materials by members of 12 auxiliary police forces. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Holland, an explanation of Calendar Number 610 15 has been asked for by the Acting Minority 16 Leader, Senator Paterson. 17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, Mr. 18 President. We debated this bill for a number 19 of years, it may go back into the 1970s, but the 20 bill would allow auxiliary police, upon local 21 authorization and appropriate instructions, to 22 possess mace for use as a defensive weapon only 23 after authorization of the police commissioner 3625 1 or chief executive officer of a county, city, 2 town or village. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Paterson. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 6 Mr. President. If Senator Holland would yield 7 for a question. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Holland, do you yield? 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Senator yields. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 14 Holland, we've had a lot of peace officers bills 15 that have come through the chamber that the 16 Senate has passed on; and obviously the county 17 or the entity would indemnify the police officer 18 for any executive action, but there is no 19 definition that I can find of an auxiliary 20 police officer in the statute and, therefore, 21 don't you think that we need to pass a law to 22 delineate what the roll of the auxiliary police 23 officer is before we could pass this 3626 1 legislation? 2 SENATOR HOLLAND: You asked 3 that question last year, Senator, and there are 4 a number of sections in law, one is section (ii) 5 of Section 22 and 23 of the New York State 6 Defense Emergency Act, and that gives three 7 different definitions of what an auxiliary 8 police officer does. Also, in the unconsoli 9 dated laws, section 9185 gives a definition of 10 what an auxiliary police officer does. I don't 11 know what else you're looking for. 12 I think there's also -- one last 13 thing, Senator. I think the city of New York 14 also has a definition which I had FAXed me but I 15 can hardly read. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Paterson. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm glad to 19 see that the followup is as good as it is, 20 Senator Holland and Senator Volker. Most of 21 those situations you describe, actually, Senator 22 Holland, relate more to emergencies, so this is 23 why I raise the issue because if we had a 3627 1 situation, if I would present the scenario where 2 deadly force was used by an auxiliary police 3 officer in a situation where it was not 4 authorized and we then had some lawsuit that was 5 brought by the victim of this type of action, 6 would there not be a problem that would exist 7 based on the liability of the county or the city 8 where the action took place because of the fact 9 that it's not exactly clear what the 10 relationship is between the entity and the 11 auxiliary police officer. 12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Well, there 13 could be a suit, Senator, if that's your point, 14 that's why the bill says it must be authorized 15 by the municipality. If it was authorized, then 16 they would be -- would pick up the suit cost, is 17 my understanding. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Paterson. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 21 Mr. President, on the bill. I 22 don't know what we would do if the force was not 23 authorized, in other words, if it was out of the 3628 1 scope of what the county proscribes; but 2 actually, other than that, Senator Holland has 3 answered the questions well and Senator Volker 4 is just doing a great job, that's all I can tell 5 you. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Secretary will read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 11 the roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll.) 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 14 the results when tabulated. 15 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded 16 in the negative on Calendar 4774 are Senators 17 Abate, Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Goodman, 18 Kruger, Markowitz, Mendez, Nanula, Oppenheimer, 19 Seabrook, Smith, also Senator Montgomery. Ayes 20 46, nays 13 -- also Senator Lachman. Ayes 45, 21 nays 14. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 bill is passed. 3629 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 3 is there any housekeeping at the desk? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I have 5 just one item, if we can return to motions and 6 resolutions, Senator Skelos. 7 The Chair would recognize 8 Senator Wright. 9 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you, Mr. 10 President. 11 Initially I would request 12 unanimous consent to be recorded in the 13 negative on Calendar Number 559, Senate 381. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 15 objection, hearing no objection, Senator Wright 16 will be recorded in the negative on Calendar 17 Number 559. 18 Senator Wright. 19 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you, Mr. 20 President. 21 I move the following bills, on 22 behalf of Senator Rath, be discharged from their 23 respective committees and be recommitted with 3630 1 instructions to strike the enacting clause: 2 Senate 6613. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 4 objection, the enacting clause is stricken, the 5 bill is recommitted. 6 Senator Skelos. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 8 there being no further business, I move we 9 adjourn until Tuesday, April 23rd, 1996 at 3:00 10 p.m. sharp. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 12 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until 13 tomorrow, Tuesday, April 23rd, at 3:00 p.m. 14 sharp. 15 (Whereupon, at 4:20 p.m., the 16 Senate adjourned.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23