Tuesday, April 23, 1996

3631 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 April 23, 1996 10 3:00 p.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 3632 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will 3 come to order. Would everyone please rise and 4 join with me in the Pledge of Allegiance. 5 (The assemblage repeated the 6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 7 The invocation today will be 8 given by Reverend Father Khatchig Megerdichian, 9 pastor of the Holy Cross Armenian Apostolic 10 Church. 11 Reverend Khatchig Megerdichian. 12 REVEREND KHATCHIG MEGERDICHIAN: 13 Dear God, we thank You for the gift of life and 14 for granting us the honor and the privilege of 15 living in this great land of freedom and 16 opportunity, where each and every one of us has 17 the freedom to worship in the faith of their 18 ancestors. 19 We thankfully dedicate our lives 20 to Your glory, to the service of our fellow man, 21 to freedom, justice, righteousness and the 22 democratic way of life. We humbly pray that You 23 preserve and protect this great nation, the 3633 1 United States of America and all of its federal, 2 state and municipal agencies. We humbly pray 3 that Your divine wisdom illuminate the hearts 4 and souls and minds of our President and cabinet 5 and Congress and especially our Governor, state 6 Senate and Assembly. 7 As we gather here today, we 8 remember and honor and pay tribute to the 9 blessed memory of over one and a half million 10 innocent Armenian men, women and children who 11 became victims of the first genocide of the 20th 12 Century at the hands of the Ottoman Turks 13 between 1915 and 1923. We pray that the 14 grievous wrongs of brutal massacre, mass 15 deportation and starvation committed against the 16 Armenian people be known to the world and set 17 right so that the sacred blood of our martyrs 18 will not have been shed in vain. 19 Dear God, may the trials and 20 tribulations which the Armenian people 21 experience throughout their long illustrious 22 history not be experienced by any nation of the 23 world again. 3634 1 And now dear God we pray, grant 2 us faith, hope and love. Make us instruments of 3 Your peace. Teach us to glorify Thy all holy 4 name, humbly serve our fellow man and 5 unceasingly strive for freedom and justice all 6 the days of our lives. Amen. 7 THE PRESIDENT: Amen. Thank you, 8 Father. 9 The reading of the Journal, 10 please. 11 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 12 Monday, April 22nd. The Senate met pursuant to 13 adjournment. The prayer by the Reverend Wayne 14 Jagow, Concordia Lutheran Church, Lockport. The 15 Journal of Sunday, April 21, was read and 16 approved. On motion, the Senate adjourned. 17 THE PRESIDENT: Without 18 objection, the Journal stands approved as read. 19 Presentation of petitions. 20 Messages from the Assembly. 21 Messages from the Governor. 22 Reports of standing committees. 23 Reports of select committees. 3635 1 Communications and reports from 2 state officers. 3 Motions and resolutions. 4 Senator Marcellino. 5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam 6 President, I believe there are some motions at 7 the desk. May we have them now, please. 8 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Tully. 9 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you, Madam 10 President. 11 I wish to call up my bill, Print 12 Number 4578, recalled from the Assembly which is 13 now at the desk. 14 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 15 will read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 306, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 4578, an act 18 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 19 relation to prohibiting the issuance of a 20 driver's license. 21 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Madam 22 President. I now move to reconsider the vote by 23 which this bill was passed. 3636 1 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll on 2 reconsideration, please. 3 (The Secretary called the roll on 4 reconsideration.) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31. 6 SENATOR TULLY: Madam President, 7 I now offer the following amendments. 8 THE PRESIDENT: The amendments 9 are received. 10 Senator Maziarz. 11 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, 12 Madam President. 13 I move that the following bills 14 be discharged from their respective committees 15 and be recommitted with instructions to strike 16 the enacting clause: 2912-A, 6384 and 6666. 17 THE PRESIDENT: The enacting 18 clauses will be struck. 19 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Also, Madam 20 President, on page number 36, I offer the 21 following amendments to Calendar Number 685, 22 S.6876, and ask that said bill retain its place 23 on the Third Reading Calendar. 3637 1 THE PRESIDENT: The amendments 2 are received. 3 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, 4 Madam President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 6 Marcellino. 7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam 8 President, are there any substitutions to be 9 made? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 11 Maltese. 12 SENATOR MALTESE: Madam 13 President, with reference to Calendar Number 14 694, I would like to place a sponsor's star. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 16 is starred at the sponsor's request. 17 Senator Marcellino. 18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam 19 President, at this time may we please adopt the 20 Resolution Calendar with the exception of 21 Resolutions 3066, 3013 and 3056. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: All those 23 in favor of adopting the Resolution Calendar 3638 1 signify by saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye".) 3 Opposed, nay. 4 (There was no response.) 5 The Resolution Calendar is 6 approved. 7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam 8 President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 10 Marcellino. 11 SENATOR MARCELLINO: May we 12 please have Resolution 3066, which is mine, read 13 in its entirety and move for its immediate 14 adoption. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 16 Secretary will read. 17 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 18 Marcellino, Legislative Resolution 3066, 19 expressing sincerest sorrow upon the occasion of 20 the death of Robert M. Banister, first 21 vice-president of the New York State 22 Conservation Council and former chairman of the 23 Conservation Fund Advisory Council. 3639 1 WHEREAS, it is the sense of this 2 legislative body that those who give positive 3 definition to the profile and disposition of the 4 ecology of the state of New York profoundly 5 strengthen our shared commitment to the exercise 6 of freedom; and 7 WHEREAS, attendant to such 8 concern and fully in accord with its long 9 standing traditions, it is the intent of this 10 legislative body to express sincerest sorrow 11 upon the occasion of the death of Robert M. 12 Banister, first vice-president of the New York 13 State Conservation Council and former chairman 14 of the Conservation Fund Advisory Council. 15 Robert M. Banister is survived by 16 his wife of 46 years, Betty Banister, and their 17 four children. 18 Robert M. Banister was born in 19 1930. He was a life-long sportsman and 20 conservationist, being a strong advocate of 21 sportmen's interests throughout New York State. 22 He represented sportsmen on a number of boards 23 and commissions, and he was the first vice 3640 1 president of the New York State Conservation 2 Council and served as chairman of the 3 Conservation Fund Advisory Council for five 4 years. 5 Dedicating his life to the issues 6 in which he so strongly believed, he worked 7 closely with the New York State Legislature on 8 various legislative incentives that have 9 resulted in better hunting and fishing in New 10 York State. Most recently, he has been working 11 closely with the representatives from the 5th 12 Senatorial District in coming up with legisla 13 tion authorizing the hunting of game on Sundays 14 during each such season in the Southern Tier, 15 central and western regions of New York State; 16 and 17 WHEREAS, in 1974, Robert M. 18 Banister was elected as director of the Genesee 19 Conservation League and served as conservation 20 vice-president for 14 years. In 1976, he was 21 elected as Monroe County Councilman to the New 22 York State Conservation Council, a position he 23 held for ten years; and 3641 1 WHEREAS, in 1979, Robert M. 2 Banister was elected to the Genesee Conservation 3 Foundation. In 1980, he was appointed by the 4 New York State Conservation Council as advisor 5 to the New York State Fish and Wildlife 6 Management Act Board and served for six years. 7 In early 1980, Robert M. Banister 8 was elected Monroe County Sportsman of the Year 9 by the Monroe County Conservation Council. In 10 1983, he was elected director-at-large to the 11 New York State Conservation Council and in 1986, 12 he was elected vice-president to the Council. 13 The next year he was appointed to the Conserva 14 tion Fund Advisory Council as a representative 15 for Region 8. Upon appointment by the Governor, 16 he served on the Great Lakes Basin Advisory 17 Council for five years. In 1991, he was elected 18 chairman of the Conservation Fund Advisory 19 Council. 20 Robert M. Banister was one of the 21 co-originators of the Sportsmen's March on 22 Albany. 23 Robert M. Banister did so 3642 1 magnanimously labor for the positive and 2 salutary definition of the ecology of the state 3 of New York; and 4 WHEREAS, Robert M. Banister often 5 told an anecdote illustrating the difference 6 between environmentalists and conservationists, 7 for whom he so strongly advocated. The story 8 goes that an environmentalist and a conserva 9 tionist were in a room with an apple sitting on 10 the mantel of the fireplace. The environ 11 mentalist picked up the apple, polished it to a 12 high luster and placed it on the mantel for 13 everyone to admire. The conservationist picked 14 up the apple, ate it and then planted the seeds; 15 and 16 WHEREAS, through his long and 17 sustained commitment to the positive and 18 salutary definition of the natural heritage of 19 this Empire State, Robert M. Banister did so 20 unselfishly advance that spirit of united 21 purpose and shared concern which is the 22 unalterable manifestation of our American 23 experience; now, therefore, be it 3643 1 RESOLVED, that this legislative 2 body pause in its deliberations and express 3 sincerest sorrow upon the occasion of the death 4 of Robert M. Banister, first vice-president of 5 the New York State Conservation Council and 6 former chairman of the Conservation Fund 7 Advisory Council, fully confident that such 8 procedure mirrors our shared commitment to 9 preserve, to enhance and to yet effect that 10 patrimony of freedom which is our American 11 heritage; and be it further 12 RESOLVED, that copies of this 13 resolution, suitably engrossed, be transmitted 14 to Mrs. Robert M. Banister and family and to 15 John Long, chairman of the New York State 16 Conservation Fund Advisory Council. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senators 18 wishing to speak on the resolution? 19 Senator Marcellino. 20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 21 Madam President. 22 Madam President, I rise to speak 23 on this particular resolution, and I would like 3644 1 to offer it in a traditional way to every member 2 -- to open it up for co-sponsorship to every 3 member in the chamber who, unless they tell the 4 desk otherwise, will be left out. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 6 members will co-sponsor unless the desk is 7 notified. 8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I'd like to 9 say a few words today about Mr. Robert Banister 10 who, until just two weeks ago, was the chairman 11 of the New York State Conservation Advisory 12 Board and who passed away prematurely on Sunday, 13 April 14th, 1996. 14 Bob was one of those people who 15 was larger than life, literally larger than 16 life. He was a big man, and he had a heart as 17 big as the outdoors he loved so much. Now, 18 unfortunately, Bob and I only met recently 19 because of my assuming the chair of the 20 Environmental Conservation Committee, but Bob 21 made his presence felt immediately upon my being 22 named the new chair contact. He made an offer 23 to sit down and give me the benefit of his 3645 1 advice and counsel, and I welcomed that. It was 2 a tremendous asset. 3 He worked well with my staff and 4 he worked constructively. He was a true 5 environmentalist because as a conservationist, 6 no one enjoys the environment more; no one 7 respects it more and no one wants to see it 8 preserved more and, when Bob fought for an 9 issue, he fought for an issue. You never found 10 Bob sitting on a fence. That was not his 11 style. He was clear. He was concise. Whether 12 you agreed with him or not, it was always done 13 in a professional and friendly way, and he 14 always had the time for a good joke and a good 15 laugh. 16 So my relationship with Bob was a 17 good one and a positive one, as many others in 18 this chamber will tell you as well. He was a 19 fine man. He was one of those people that the 20 expression he will never be -- he will not 21 easily be replaced -- well, Bob is one of those 22 individuals who frankly will never be replaced. 23 Thank you. 3646 1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Are there 2 any other Senators wishing to speak? 3 (There was no response.) 4 The question is on the resolu 5 tion. All in favor signify by saying aye. 6 (Response of "Aye".) 7 Opposed, nay. 8 (There was no response.) 9 The resolution is adopted. 10 Senator Marcellino. 11 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam 12 President, may we have Resolution 3056 by 13 Senator Maltese read in its entirety and 14 adopted, please. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 16 Secretary will read. 17 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 18 Maltese, Legislative Resolution 3056, 19 memorializing Governor George E. Pataki to 20 proclaim April 24th, 1996 as "Armenian Martyrs' 21 Day" in New York State; 22 WHEREAS, it is the sense of this 23 assembled body to emphatically urge Governor 3647 1 George E. Pataki to proclaim April 24, 1996 2 "Armenian Martyrs' Day" in New York State; and 3 WHEREAS, this proclamation arises 4 from a sense of human decency and respect for 5 the Armenian people and their history. 6 Towards the end of the 19th 7 Century, the Turkish Government began to 8 systematically persecute their citizens of 9 Armenian heritage. 10 From 1894 to 1896, Sultan 11 Abdu-Hamid II ordered the massacre of 300,000 12 Armenians living within the boundaries of the 13 Turkish Empire; and 14 WHEREAS, in 1909, 30,000 more 15 Armenian men, women and children were 16 senselessly slaughtered by Turkish armies in the 17 mountain village of Cilicia. 18 Nonetheless, by the onset of 19 World War I, there still remained 2,500,000 20 Armenians who made their homes within the 21 Ottoman Empire. Of those, over 250,000 were 22 faithful soldiers who loyally fought within the 23 ranks of its armies in an effort to defend their 3648 1 homeland. 2 On April 24, 1915, hundreds of 3 Armenian religious, political and intellectual 4 leaders were rounded up, exiled and eventually 5 murdered in secret death camps hidden in the 6 depths of the mountainsides. 7 Over the course of the next six 8 months, the Armenian soldiers on active duty in 9 the Army were disarmed and placed in forced 10 labor battalions, whereupon many either starved 11 or were summarily executed behind the fences of 12 these camps. 13 Deprived of their leaders and the 14 young men who could defend these helpless 15 communities, the remaining Armenians became the 16 easy target for the governmental raids and found 17 themselves at the mercy of cruel and often 18 barbaric persecutors; and 19 WHEREAS, a total of 1,500,000 20 Armenian men, women and children were massacred; 21 500,000 more were exiled and about 500,000 were 22 able to escape the reign of terror and establish 23 themselves in new and wholly foreign lands. As 3649 1 a result, today there are only 100,000 people of 2 Armenian heritage left residing within the 3 boundaries of modern Turkey. 4 The devastation which resulted 5 from this "ethnic cleansing" practiced by the 6 rulers of the Ottoman Empire occurred in a 7 similar ratio to that caused by the Jewish 8 Holocaust in Germany and Eastern Europe, yet 9 most of the world's peoples do not realize the 10 gravity of the genocide perpetrated during this 11 period. 12 The Armenian people have been 13 denied the right of self-determination of 14 ancestral lands. They have received no form of 15 reparations for their tragic losses; and 16 WHEREAS, on April 24, 1996, a 17 memorial ceremony will be held in New York City 18 Hall, City Council Chamber to commemorate the 19 81st Anniversary of the Armenian Genocide; and 20 WHEREAS, members of the Armenian 21 community will gather to honor the memory of the 22 victims of this genocide and to emphasize that 23 crimes against humanity must be condemned and 3650 1 never be allowed; now, therefore, be it 2 RESOLVED, that this legislative 3 body pause in its deliberations to urge Governor 4 George E. Pataki to proclaim April 24, 1996 5 "Armenian Martyrs' Day" in New York State; and 6 be it further 7 RESOLVED, that this resolution is 8 intended to counter the tide of revisionist 9 history that purports that Armenian genocide 10 never took place; and be it further 11 RESOLVED, that copies of this 12 resolution, suitably engrossed, be transmitted 13 to the Armenian National Committee, to Rouben 14 Shugarian, Armenian Ambassador to the United 15 States and to Alexander Arzoumanian, United 16 Nations representative and to the President of 17 the United States. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 19 Maltese. 20 SENATOR MALTESE: Madam 21 President, first of all, this resolution would 22 be open to anyone who wishes to join in 23 sponsoring it, and while I'm saying that about 3651 1 opening resolutions, I'd refer to Resolution 2 300... 300... it looks like ...5 which is 3 commemorating the 100th Anniversary of the 4 Appellate Division, Second Department, which is 5 also open to all members. 6 Madam President, this important 7 resolution seeks to retain in our thoughts and 8 in our minds and in our prayers a very, very 9 terrible genocide that took place many years 10 ago. 11 As the resolution spoke for 12 itself as to revisionists who seek to hide this 13 terrible atrocity from the minds and hearts of 14 so many Americans, we must remember that in many 15 ways, the past is -- foretells what comes in the 16 future, and if more people had spoken out and 17 fought against this terrible atrocity, then 18 perhaps the Holocaust of the second -- during 19 the second World War and prior to it would not 20 have taken place. 21 We have the responsibility in the 22 Legislature of bringing resolutions and 23 cataclysmic events like this to the floor, and I 3652 1 join with the Armenian community of New York 2 State and the nation and Reverend Father 3 Khatchig Megerdichian from the church in Troy, a 4 church that is within Senator Bruno's Senatorial 5 District, and mention the fact that despite this 6 atrocity and despite this holocaust, the 7 Armenians who disseminated throughout Europe and 8 came to the New World and the United States had 9 made a place for themselves as American citizens 10 of the first order and are in every line of 11 endeavor with -- with special emphasis in 12 business and in medicine, and we in America are 13 very happy that we share the pride in America 14 with our Armenian-Americans. 15 So, again, Madam President, I 16 urge the adoption of this resolution 17 commemorating American Martyrs' Day on April 18 24th, 1996. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank 20 you, Senator Maltese. 21 The question is on the resolution 22 -- pardon me. Another Senator wanted to 23 speak. 3653 1 Yes, I'm sorry. 2 SENATOR LACHMAN: Madam 3 President, my distinguished colleague who is 4 sponsoring this resolution, I would be honored 5 if he would allow me to co-sponsor it because I 6 believe, as he believes and I know all of us 7 believe, that genocide should be condemned 8 regardless of who perpetrates it and who 9 suffers. 10 Unfortunately, this was the first 11 major genocide in the 20th Century and many 12 historians hushed up the fact that it was, and 13 tragically it might have led others to believe 14 that they could get away with genocide against 15 other peoples, and I would be honored to 16 co-sponsor this resolution and to state that 17 categorically, the belief of this chamber that 18 genocide against any group regardless of race, 19 religion, ethnic and nat... or national origin 20 should be condemned and deplored any place in 21 the world. 22 Thank you. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank 3654 1 you, Senator Lachman. 2 Senator Marcellino, would you 3 like to have us put all members on this bill 4 unless notified by -- to the desk. 5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I believe 6 that was Senator Maltese's wish at the beginning 7 so, yes, by all means. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank 9 you. That will be so ordered. 10 The question is on the 11 resolution. All in favor signify by saying 12 aye. 13 (Response of "Aye".) 14 Opposed, nay. 15 (There was no response.) 16 The resolution is adopted. 17 Senator Marcellino. 18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam 19 President, may we have a reading of the non- - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: We have 21 substitutions. 22 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Make the 23 substitutions, if you have it. 3655 1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank 2 you, Senator Marcellino. 3 The Secretary will read. 4 THE SECRETARY: On page 7, 5 Senator Kuhl moves to discharge from the 6 Committee on Agriculture, Assembly Bill Number 7 1221-A and substitute it for the identical 8 Second Report Calendar Number 720. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: So 10 ordered. 11 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam 12 President, at this time may we have a reading of 13 the non-controversial calendar. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 15 Secretary will read. 16 THE SECRETARY: On page 12, 17 Calendar Number 296, by Senator Skelos - 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Lay the 20 bill aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 393, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 3612, an 23 act to amend the Domestic Relations Law, the 3656 1 Criminal Procedure Law and the Family Court Act. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Lay the 4 bill aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 394, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 4840, an 7 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in 8 relation to expanding the circumstances under 9 which orders of protection may be continued. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 11 last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect on the first day of 14 November. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 20 is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 450, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 6316-A, 23 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation 3657 1 Law, in relation to permitting the hunting of 2 game on Sunday. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay that 4 aside. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Lay the 6 bill aside. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 578, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 4117, an act 9 to amend the General Business Law and the 10 Executive Law, in relation to exemptions from 11 the Security Guard Act. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside, 13 please. 14 SENATOR KUHL: Madam President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Why do 16 you rise, Senator Kuhl? 17 SENATOR KUHL: Would you place a 18 sponsor's star on that bill, please. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: At the 20 request by the sponsor, put a star on the bill. 21 So ordered. 22 SENATOR KUHL: Thank you. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3658 1 582, by member of the Assembly Nolan, Assembly 2 Print 6741-B, an act to amend the Labor Law, in 3 relation to requiring growers and processors to 4 provide safe drinking water. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 6 last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 10 Mendez. 11 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes, Madam 12 President, to explain my vote. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: We'll 14 call the roll then, Senator Mendez, if you 15 would. 16 Thank you. Please call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll.) 19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 20 Mendez. 21 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Madam 22 President. 23 About 15 years ago, I introduced 3659 1 two bills that at the time the only thing that 2 they did was, number one, provide -- provide 3 toilet facilities on the fields where the 4 migrant workers do, in fact, work and the other 5 one was for the establishment of a -- public 6 telephones so they could call their families if 7 they wanted to. At the time it seems -- at the 8 time it seems that nothing could be done about 9 that. 10 About two years ago, Madam 11 President, the Minority Leader, Senator Connor, 12 appointed a joint legislative task force on farm 13 issues, and we conducted public hearings and as 14 a result of those public -- of that public 15 hearing, we were able to come up with a report 16 concerning the plight of farm workers in the 17 great state of New York, and a couple of them 18 have been passed in the Assembly. 19 Today, we just finished passing a 20 bill that I think is the first bill in many, 21 many years that has been passed and that, in 22 fact, helps the plight of the farm workers. I 23 couldn't possibly let go of the fact that 3660 1 without the cooperation and understanding of 2 Senator Bruno, without the understanding and 3 cooperation of Senator Spano, who understood the 4 need for this bill and reported the bill out to 5 the Committee on Water Resources and there, a 6 very good friend also, Senator Tully, expressed 7 concern and was able to report it out to the 8 floor. 9 Yesterday, I received the 10 cooperation of Senator Dean Skelos, of course, 11 Senator Bruno, and I want to acknowledge the 12 work done on this issue and -- on behalf of farm 13 workers by Reverend Witt, and Miss -- and other 14 coalitions that are fighting to remove 15 inequities from the labor laws as it pertains to 16 the farm workers. I feel there are still some 17 things to be -- I can appreciate there's a long 18 way to go. However, the important thing is - 19 in terms of my own experience is that rational 20 minds can get together, discuss issues and agree 21 to solutions that, in fact, remedy a need of a 22 group, of a people or what have you. 23 So I want to thank these 3661 1 wonderful gentlemen for the help that they have 2 given us, for the great hope that they have 3 given the farm workers of New York State. 4 Thank you, Madam President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank 6 you, Senator Mendez. 7 Announce the vote. 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 10 is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 614, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 2612-A, an 13 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 14 increasing the penalties for the sale of 15 controlled substances. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Lay the 18 bill aside. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 617, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 3803, an 21 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in 22 relation to the period of time which must be 23 excluded. 3662 1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 2 last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll.) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 10 is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 621, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5793, an 13 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 14 consecutive terms of imprisonment. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 16 last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect on the first day of 19 November. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 3663 1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 2 is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 623, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 6028, an 5 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in 6 relation to mandatory arrests and orders of 7 protection in family offense cases. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 9 last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 11 act shall take effect in 90 days. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 688, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2596, an 20 act to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules, 21 in relation to the statute of limitations for 22 enforcement of support orders. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 3664 1 last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect in 90 days. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 9 is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 705, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2120, an 12 act to amend the Family Court Act, in relation 13 to the fair treatment of child witnesses in 14 child protective proceedings. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 16 last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect on the first day of 19 November. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 3665 1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 2 is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 708, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 6227, an 5 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 6 payments received as profit for a crime. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it aside. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Lay the 9 bill aside. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 709, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 6230-A, 12 an act to amend the Executive Law, in relation 13 to victim notification and verification 14 procedures for police. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 16 last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll.) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 3666 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 712, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 6924, an 4 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 5 making available to their victims the proceeds 6 of civil recoveries. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 8 last section. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it aside. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Lay the 11 bill aside. 12 Senator Marcellino, that 13 completes the non-controversial reading of the 14 calendar. 15 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam 16 President, may we now take up the fearfully, 17 awesome controversial calendar. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 19 Secretary will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 296, Senator Skelos, Senate Print 6072-A, an act 22 to amend the County Law and the General 23 Municipal Law, in relation to authorizing 3667 1 counties. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: An 4 explanation has been requested. 5 Senator Skelos. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, Madam 7 President. 8 This legislation will authorize 9 counties by local law, at the option of the 10 county, to establish a crime case status hot 11 line providing for an automated toll-free victim 12 notification system and/or a pay per call jail 13 information line. 14 The automated crime victim 15 notification system will enable victims to gain 16 information about the pending criminal 17 proceedings in which he or she may have been 18 involved, the custody status of the alleged 19 perpetrator and any other details, including 20 court dates. The system can also automatically 21 call the victim, informing him or her of the 22 release date of the alleged offender. 23 You know, statistics are very 3668 1 clear that 280,000 women are battered every year 2 in New York State. There is a report of 3 domestic violence to law enforcement agencies 4 every 15 seconds, and according to the FBI, four 5 women a week are killed and an untold number of 6 others are injured as a result of domestic 7 abuse. In these cases, the first few hours of 8 release of the offender are critical in 9 protecting the women. 10 We believe this type of program 11 which has been successful -- successfully used 12 in New Jersey, in Kentucky will go a long way in 13 protecting those who are victims of domestic 14 violence and, in fact, others who have been 15 victimized by those about to be released from 16 jail. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 18 Paterson. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 20 Madam President. 21 We'd like to congratulate Senator 22 Skelos for his work. The establishment of a 23 crime case status hot line would certainly be in 3669 1 order. The statistics that Senator Skelos just 2 made available to us are staggering and that, as 3 well as the other victims of crimes who would be 4 gained very favorably by knowing this 5 information is certainly laudable. 6 If Senator Skelos would yield for 7 a few questions. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator, 9 will you yield? 10 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Madam 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 13 Senator yields. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, the 15 issue of counties perhaps would have the option 16 to pay for this type of service, but isn't it 17 also true that in the bill that a one percent 18 premium of bail would go toward paying for the 19 crime case status hot line? 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Presently, three 21 percent is retained. We would allow for one 22 year that there could be an additional one 23 percent retained by the counties and, of course, 3670 1 you know if a person is found innocent or if a 2 case is dismissed and not pursued, that 3 percentage goes back to whoever posted the 4 bail. Only if there is a conviction or a plea, 5 which is a conviction, would that be retained, 6 or a county could opt to have a pay per call 7 charge not to be paid by the victim or the 8 victim's attorney but others who may seek the 9 information, or a county could choose not to 10 charge anything at all. It would be at the 11 option of the county. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Just to 13 clarify, Senator, I just want to make sure that 14 if an individual who is arrested is found to be 15 not guilty or if the charges are dismissed, the 16 one percent, therefore, would be returned. In 17 other words, 100 percent of - 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 19 DeFrancisco informs me that it's not returned. 20 So I would stand corrected then on that. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Okay. That's 22 what I thought, Senator, and since that is the 23 case, I guess my question is, do we not set up a 3671 1 situation where we have a hot line that we 2 sorely need; and this is not a discussion of 3 your intent to establish the hot line because we 4 wholeheartedly agree with it. We hope we can 5 work this out so that we can have a crime case 6 status hot line. All the victim services 7 organizations have been asking for it and you've 8 responded to them, but the question is don't we 9 set up a situation where, in a sense, innocent 10 people, because of the fact that they were 11 charged, are now being put in the position of 12 paying for this hot line that all citizens of 13 the state can benefit? 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Again, that's at 15 the option of the county. The county does not 16 have to implement the additional surcharge. The 17 county could do it by a charge per call similar 18 to what we're doing under the "Megan's Law" with 19 the 900 number where you pay a fee and that will 20 help pay for the cost of the -- of the 900 21 number. It's at the option of the county. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 23 Senator Skelos. 3672 1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 2 Paterson, does that complete - 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Madam 4 President - 5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: You said 6 you had several questions. Does that complete 7 your several questions? Senator Waldon has 8 requested the floor. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: No, it didn't. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: It did 11 not complete your several questions. Did you 12 want Senator Skelos to proceed, or did you have 13 another question? 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Maybe I should 15 think of a word that means more than "several". 16 I have an infinite number of questions. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 18 Skelos. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: I certainly 20 would be happy to answer - 21 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 22 Paterson, yes, go ahead. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: -- a few more 3673 1 questions. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: An 3 infinite number of questions, I don't know 4 whether there's a ruling on that in the 5 handbook. I'll check that out. 6 Go ahead, Senator Paterson. I 7 think you've got at least a few more. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: We have just a 9 few more questions and, really, I'll defer to 10 Senator Waldon. I would just like to get this 11 issue cleared up. 12 First of all, Senator, I'm 13 concerned that we have a situation where certain 14 counties would be bearing a greater encumbrance 15 than other counties for establishing this entire 16 service, and the fact that individuals -- let's 17 say if someone pays $100,000 in bail, that 18 $1,000 might go to set up this hot line and the 19 person may be found to be not guilty or the 20 charges may be dismissed, and my concern in this 21 situation is that I think that is a tremendous 22 burden to ask of an individual who has simply 23 been arrested, not convicted of a crime, but a 3674 1 bail has been set and a bail in this state means 2 to assure the presence and the cooperation of 3 the defendant, that - 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 5 Paterson, maybe I can correct myself again. I'm 6 informed by learned counsel that actually if you 7 are found not guilty or the case is not 8 continued, that the three percent is returned to 9 the individual. So that renders moot your 10 concern. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator - 12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 13 Paterson, another question? 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, this is 15 the last question. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The last 17 of the infinite. 18 Senator Skelos, do you yield? 19 (Senator Skelos nods head.) 20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Proceed. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: You have now 22 answered to my satisfaction about the three 23 percent that you cover in the bill, but what 3675 1 about the one percent that's still there, the 2 one percent that may be dedicated to 3 establishing the case status hot line? 4 SENATOR SKELOS: That would be 5 returned also? It wouldn't be charged. It 6 would be returned also if you're found not 7 guilty. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 9 much, Senator Skelos. 10 You have helped to clear up the 11 issue of who will pay for the criminal case 12 status hot line and also have helped me for the 13 first time in history to define the term 14 "infinite". 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: That was 16 wonderful, Senator. 17 Senator Waldon. 18 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 19 much, Madam President. 20 Would Senator Skelos yield to a 21 question or two? 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Madam 23 President. 3676 1 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Madam 2 President. 3 Senator, I'm trying to get a 4 sense of the real information that will be given 5 to the caller. John Doe is arrested. A woman 6 is the alleged victim. She calls the hot line. 7 It says here that certain information will be 8 given. It's only the information that you have 9 in this bill, this proposal where he's located, 10 the charge, what really will be disseminated? 11 SENATOR SKELOS: The information 12 that we're trying to give to the victim is 13 information, for example, when a woman's 14 batterer is going to be released from jail so 15 that she will know that there may be a potential 16 problem for her with this release, and the way 17 it would work is the victim could call the hot 18 line. A person would have a PIN number and a 19 case number so that the 800 number that's called 20 would know the case that's involved, the fact 21 that this person is a victim. They could then 22 find out the information that they want, such as 23 the release date, or you can even set up a 3677 1 system where, by computer, there is a call made 2 to the victim's home when a person is going to 3 be released and it will continue to call that 4 home until there is contact made with the victim 5 so that the person knows that somebody is about 6 to be released from jail or there's a trial date 7 established, that type of thing. So it's really 8 information that will be made available to the 9 victim to be able to better protect themselves. 10 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 12 Waldon. Senator Skelos, will you yield to 13 another question? 14 SENATOR WALDON: So from what 15 you're saying -- and I'm really trying to get a 16 sense from what I'm reading -- victimless crimes 17 will not be part and parcel of this. For 18 example, someone commits a burglary. There's no 19 one home. No one is injured and they exit the 20 burglary. Someone requesting information 21 anonymously about that person would not be given 22 the information, is that correct? 23 SENATOR SKELOS: You still get 3678 1 the information. I believe if my house is 2 burglarized, I'm a victim, whether I'm in that 3 house or not. 4 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 6 Waldon. Senator Skelos, do you yield? 7 (Senator Skelos nods head.) 8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Yes, he 9 yields. 10 SENATOR WALDON: If what you've 11 said in terms, Senator, just then, stretching 12 what I normally characterize as "victims" -- for 13 example, the Crime Victims Compensation Board 14 might compensate someone for burglary, but I 15 think normally an injury of sorts is involved. 16 Can we say then that all crimes -- information 17 regarding all crimes by a person involved as the 18 victim in the crime or someone anonymously can 19 call and get the information on the person who's 20 alleged to have committed this act? 21 SENATOR SKELOS: And this would 22 be at the option of the county. The county 23 could set up the system any way they wish. They 3679 1 could narrow it to domestic violence. They 2 could make it expanded to any type of a crime. 3 Your definition of a "victim" may be one thing. 4 I look at it from the point of view if somebody 5 has burglarized my house, I have been 6 victimized. If somebody steals my car, whether 7 I'm in it or not, I have been victimized. If 8 the county opts to include that type of 9 information in the crime victim hot line, then 10 that would be accessible by me as a victim. 11 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President, 12 may I continue, please? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 14 Skelos, do you continue to yield? 15 SENATOR SKELOS: And just to 16 follow up, Senator Waldon, most of this 17 information is public information anyway when an 18 individual has been arrested. What we're doing 19 is we're making -- we're coming into the 20 computer world, the computer age, and just 21 making the information a little bit more 22 available. 23 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President, 3680 1 if I may continue. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 3 Skelos, do you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 5 SENATOR WALDON: Are you implying 6 by your response, Senator Skelos, that someone 7 arrested and an entry is made in the police 8 blotter that somehow that goes out in the 9 Internet or the Web saying, John Doe just robbed 10 six people on the corner of 156th Street and 11 Amsterdam Avenue or Broadway in New York City; 12 is that what you're saying? 13 SENATOR SKELOS: You have to have 14 a PIN number. If you paid attention to what I 15 said to Senator Paterson, that you have to have 16 a PIN number to access that information. 17 SENATOR WALDON: Then as a 18 follow-up to that, the only person who has a PIN 19 number -- or only those persons who have PIN 20 numbers will be those who have been identified 21 by the county as victims; is that what you're 22 saying? 23 SENATOR SKELOS: That's right. 3681 1 Or their attorney, bail bondsman, that type of 2 person. 3 SENATOR WALDON: Last question. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 5 Waldon. Last question, Senator Skelos. 6 Go ahead, Senator. 7 SENATOR WALDON: Under the 8 Freedom of Information Law, as I understand it, 9 there are certain investigations conducted by a 10 district attorney or the New York State 11 Commission of Investigation or other lawful body 12 in the state, whereby even I as a legislator 13 cannot call and ask for information because it 14 might compromise the investigation, the ongoing 15 investigation. Would this in any way interfere 16 with ongoing investigations by district 17 attorneys, Commission of Investigation or other 18 investigative bodies in the state? 19 SENATOR SKELOS: I would assume 20 that the counties have to abide by what the law 21 is and whatever the freedom of information laws 22 are. 23 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you. 3682 1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 2 Waldon. 3 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President, 4 on the bill. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: On the 6 bill. 7 SENATOR WALDON: I'm a little bit 8 frightened by this. I think that "1984" -- was 9 that the title of the book? It was "1984"? 10 SENATOR LACHMAN: Yes. Published 11 in '48 and it was called "1984". 12 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you. 13 Our learned educator just advised 14 me that they flipped the numbers. I think that 15 "1984" may be visiting us in 1996, and I'm 16 worried by that. I'm worried because anyone who 17 has a lawyer, who is a victim can get the 18 information anyway. So why do we need to put it 19 on the phone and why do we need to have PIN 20 numbers to access it? 21 I think that when you get into 22 the business of putting people's business in the 23 street, there are too many negatives, too many 3683 1 down sides to that, and I think this rush to 2 share information about someone who may have 3 committed a crime and who may have caused 4 someone to be a victim and who may owe a debt to 5 society is a dangerous, dangerous ground to walk 6 upon, because my fear is that those who will be 7 most maligned by this process are the ones who 8 are always most maligned by this process, those 9 characterized -- and the director of Criminal 10 Justice in our fair state, Mr. Schechtman, his 11 report shows that blacks in this state, Latinos 12 in this state, if committing the same act or 13 alleged to have committed the same act will, 14 one, not be treated fairly or equally, if you 15 can characterize "equal" as fair, as a white 16 counterpart with the precisely same profile. 17 Someone the same age, the same area, the same 18 allegation, the same financial and social 19 background, the black or Latino will almost 30 20 percent of the time do time or receive 21 punishment even when it comes to, if arrested or 22 you're released on your own recognizance, or do 23 you spend the night or some days in jail? I 3684 1 think this compounds that. 2 I think this compounds that the 3 report shows that racism is alive and well in 4 New York State. I think it's unnecessary. I 5 think it's overbroad. I think it does a 6 disservice to us because all of us who practice 7 or are part and parcel of the criminal justice 8 system know that your lawyer can get all of this 9 information. So why do you want to put it on 10 the Net or on the Web or whatever? Who are you 11 looking to punish and who are you looking to 12 damage with this information? 13 I would encourage my colleagues 14 to look at that and to think about it and see if 15 that is something that the people of the state 16 of New York should be about, and I would 17 encourage all of us to recognize that it's too 18 much too soon, and we should vote no on this 19 issue. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 21 Dollinger. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would the 23 sponsor yield to just a couple of questions? 3685 1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 2 Skelos, do you yield? 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Madam 4 President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 6 Senator yields. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I'm 8 interested in page 2 of the bill, lines 21 and 9 22 which talk about the provision that "In no 10 case shall the county be held liable for damages 11 for any failure to provide notice pursuant to 12 this section." 13 My question is what happens if 14 the information provided by the county is 15 inaccurate; is the county still liable for the 16 inaccurate information on this data? 17 SENATOR SKELOS: No. They would 18 not be. They're held immune. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. I 20 understand that's what you're trying to do. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: It's very 22 similar to, I believe the Correction Law where 23 it involves state notification. 3686 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right. I - 2 if that's what you want to do is create that 3 blanket immunity, I don't think this line does 4 it because I can foresee that what this in 5 essence says, or what I think its most literal 6 reading is, that if a county elected not to have 7 the system, it couldn't be held liable for the 8 failure to implement the system, which I think 9 you and I both agree. There shouldn't be any 10 liability on the part of the county for the 11 failure to follow through on this optional 12 system, but as it's drafted, what I see this 13 doing is opening the door that if the 14 information provided by the county to the victim 15 is inaccurate and the victim relies on that 16 inaccurate information, the county will be 17 sued. This language doesn't create immunity. 18 It doesn't even mention the word "immunity", and 19 I would suggest that you strengthen it by adding 20 "immunity", if that's what you want to do. 21 The other question I have, and it 22 deals with immunity, is what happens if the 23 information provided to the county is not 3687 1 accurate? If the incarceration institution says 2 -- doesn't update the information or it's not 3 accurately provided, the assumption is that the 4 person is still in the -- in incarceration and 5 yet has not been released. It seems to me you 6 have the same problem. The victim relies on the 7 data from the hot line. The victim doesn't 8 change their conduct and the whole point of this 9 is to, as I understand it, I think rightfully 10 so, is to allow victims, to know, to understand 11 and to alter their conduct, either contact the 12 Parole Board or to take personal actions or 13 obtain protective orders, whatever. It seems to 14 me that if what you have done here is said that 15 the county can't - 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 17 Dollinger, you know the system is not perfect. 18 I don't think we can devise a system that's 19 perfect. We allow for the system to contact the 20 victim. We allow the victim to contact the 21 system, and I think it affords just an 22 additional protection, perhaps not perfect. 23 It's like orders of protection. They're not 3688 1 perfect, but it's a little additional "oomph" to 2 try and protect somebody, and this is what this 3 system is doing. 4 It's just trying to give that 5 little additional protection so that a person 6 who has, for example, suffered from domestic 7 violence will know that a spouse or significant 8 other is coming out of jail and can better 9 protect themselves from a violent situation. 10 That's all it's doing. We don't pretend for it 11 to be perfect, that it's going to stop all 12 domestic violence; that it's going to stop all 13 violence by those when they're released from 14 jail or incarceration. It's just a little bit 15 more. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the bill, 17 Madam President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: On the 19 bill, Senator Dollinger. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I agree with 21 Senator Skelos. I don't think that we have to 22 be perfect in achieving our balance here, but 23 what I'm afraid of is that this language doesn't 3689 1 create enough of an immunity so the counties 2 will actually do it, because what I think will 3 happen is that county attorneys will read this 4 provision and realize that if they set up this 5 system, the cost to maintain it with a level of 6 accuracy so that they can be assured that 7 they've got something that victims can rely on, 8 I think they're going to look at it and say that 9 the risk of this kind of system is very, very 10 expensive. 11 I know there have been lawsuits 12 brought against the 911 system in other 13 counties, a very significant one brought against 14 Erie County a couple of years ago which resulted 15 in a multi-million dollar damage award because 16 the person relied on the system and the system 17 didn't work. 18 So I would suggest that perhaps 19 if we reach a point where the Assembly is going 20 to sit down and go over this bill, that you 21 strengthen the immunity provisions. If what you 22 really want to do is make them create it more as 23 a service rather than something they can 3690 1 absolutely depend on, then you ought to say that 2 and you ought to make the county immune from any 3 lawsuit, because it'll be a spur to get counties 4 to actually do it. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank 6 you, Senator Dollinger. 7 Read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll.) 13 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 14 Paterson, why do you rise? 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Madam 16 President, to explain my vote. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: To 18 explain your vote. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: I cannot vote 20 for this bill at this time only because in spite 21 of, I think, the sincere assurance of the 22 sponsor and his counsel, that the money would be 23 refunded to the defendant after there is a 3691 1 dismissal of the charges or a finding of not 2 guilty by the court, though I believe that, I 3 don't find it anywhere in this bill, and I 4 suggest that counties, as strapped as they are 5 financially, may not return that money, and I do 6 not want to see innocent people paying large 7 sums of money merely by the fact that they were 8 arrested to sustain the criminal case hot line 9 when it is a great idea, and I think it's 10 something that we as a government should sponsor 11 ourselves and those who post bail and then are 12 found to be guilty should certainly be financing 13 their part of it. However, I just don't think 14 it would be fair at all to individuals who have 15 been charged and not found to be guilty of any 16 crime to have to pay for that hot line. 17 I vote no. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank 19 you, Senator. 20 Announce the vote. 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58, nays 1, 22 Senator Paterson recorded in the negative. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 3692 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 393, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 3612, an 4 act to amend the Domestic Relations Law, the 5 Criminal Procedure Law and the Family Court Act, 6 in relation to imposing a mandatory surcharge. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: An 9 explanation has been requested. 10 Senator Skelos. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 12 this bill establishes the Domestic Violence 13 Legal Service Account. The account will be 14 funded by a surcharge imposed by parties against 15 whom an order of protection has been issued. 16 The surcharge will be $25 per order of 17 protection. The funds generated from this 18 surcharge will be appropriated to the Office of 19 Prevention of Domestic Violence to be used for 20 legal services for the victims of domestic 21 violence. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 23 Paterson. 3693 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Madam 2 President, if Senator Skelos would yield for 3 three questions. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 5 Skelos - 6 SENATOR SKELOS: I'm counting. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: -- three 8 questions. 9 SENATOR SKELOS: I'm counting. 10 Number one. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Proceed. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Number one, 13 Senator, in spite of the fact that, again you 14 have picked a very important area and one that 15 has not been addressed enough with the 16 tremendous number of stalkings and the issues 17 related to domestic violence and other forms of 18 harassment and threat and coercion but, again, I 19 want to talk to you about the manner in which 20 this is funded. 21 Do you not think that it may 22 exacerbate a situation for the surcharge to be 23 placed on an individual who is being identified 3694 1 by the court as a risk but has not actually been 2 in any way necessarily charged, and so this 3 action by the court is not one that's final or 4 renders a judgment; it is one that just creates 5 what would, in a sense, be a protection for the 6 victim, to then levy a charge against the 7 individual that the order of protection is taken 8 seems to indicate an opinion that the court has 9 rather than the fact that the court is 10 protecting the defendant against a risk. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: The best way I 12 can answer that, in my opinion, is that the 13 surcharge is appropriate for the purposes for 14 which it's going to be used, and that's to 15 provide -- help provide legal services to those 16 who are victims of domestic violence and who 17 need the assistance. 18 Certainly as we -- the bill is 19 discussed with the Assembly, there could be 20 discussions concerning indigency and other 21 issues involved. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Question 23 number two, Senator. 3695 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Question number 2 two. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: This is a 4 short question. What is the manner of 5 collection that we will use for the surcharge 6 since the individual -- would we do that during 7 the process of service of the order of 8 protection? 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 10 Number three. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Number 12 three. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Number three, 14 Senator, just simply, in your answer to question 15 number one, you gave - 16 SENATOR SKELOS: This is number 17 three. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Right. No. 19 I'm saying in your answer to question number one 20 as a preamble to question number three, you 21 indicated that there is a need for this kind of 22 service and that the money will go to a very 23 good cause, but just to, in a sense, follow up 3696 1 on question number one as number three, I would 2 again like you to answer what it is about taking 3 the money from the -- from the individual who 4 was identified as the object of the order of 5 protection when the court has not made any 6 determination as to whether or not there's a 7 need for the order but what the court is doing 8 is taking a preventive meas... a preventive 9 measure. So my question is, why should an 10 individual pay for a preventive measure? Would 11 the court not be -- the court is, in a sense, 12 erring on the side of caution if we issue an 13 order of protection and there is no need for it, 14 but we should still issue it. 15 The question is, why is the 16 object being charged for what would be a very 17 needed service? Why don't we just establish it 18 as a government because people need to have 19 additional services? That's something that is, 20 in a sense, called for by the staggering 21 statistics that you related to us earlier. So 22 rather than put it on the object, why would we 23 not just provide this in the law and provide 3697 1 this in our budget? 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 3 Paterson. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 5 Skelos. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: This legislation 7 that we're passing today is part of an ongoing 8 discussion with the Assembly where many of the 9 issues that you've raised will perhaps be 10 discussed with them if the final bill can be - 11 agreement can be reached on this type of 12 legislation. We are moving the process 13 forward. 14 Remember, when an order of 15 protection is issued, the judge has made a 16 determination that something serious has 17 happened here. So I don't personally have a 18 problem with a $25 surcharge at that point. As 19 our discussions continue with the Assembly, this 20 is one of the issues that will be raised and it 21 could/could not be part of the final bill that's 22 agreed upon by both houses, your concerns, I'm 23 talking about. 3698 1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 2 Paterson, on the bill. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 4 Madam President. 5 I somewhat differ in my 6 interpretation of what the order of protection 7 is with Senator Skelos. Many times, there is 8 not the requisite evidence or the proof at that 9 particular time to establish what an individual 10 may have done to another individual. What the 11 order of protection does is, in a sense, serve 12 as a warning that the criminal justice system 13 has taken notice of this situation and that it 14 will, in a sense, serve as a deeper 15 understanding if there's any further action 16 after the order of protection is issued of what 17 may have already been going on. 18 So I don't see it as something 19 serious has been observed by the court. It's 20 that the court has a notion that something 21 serious may have occurred and would like to 22 protect the victim from any further violence or 23 any further harassment. 3699 1 Because of that, because it is 2 not punitive but it is preventive, I don't think 3 that -- the individual who may become so 4 antagonized by the levy of this fee so that the 5 individual causes more harm, I don't think it's 6 wise to place the money in that fashion. 7 However, again, in two bills today, Senator 8 Skelos has developed a concept on some issues 9 that we as a body have for a long time needed to 10 address. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank 12 you, Senator Paterson. 13 Senator Gold. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Would the 15 Senator yield to a question? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 17 Skelos, will you yield? 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Madam 19 President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 21 yields. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, does this 23 only apply to Family Court or any court issuing 3700 1 an order of protection? 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Any court. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, if 4 the Senator will yield, let me just throw 5 something out, and I'll tell you a concern. 6 It's not a heavy concern, but it is a concern. 7 I know as a practicing lawyer, 8 from time to time the Attorney General or others 9 in a business setting will sue for something 10 against somebody doing a certain kind of an 11 illegal activity and what always happens -- not 12 always, but a lot of times happens, is the 13 defendant will say, "We don't do that; we don't 14 do that," and so a judge will say, "If you're 15 not doing it, there's no harm to the injunction" 16 and you say, "You don't understand, your Honor. 17 Why should I have it on my record that I needed 18 somebody to enjoin me from doing an illegal act 19 or something I shouldn't be doing, when the fact 20 is I never violated anything?" 21 Senator, in 90 percent of those 22 cases, the injunction gets ordered. The judge 23 has forced the defendant in a situation where 3701 1 they say there's been nothing raised, say no. 2 Now, we take the orders of 3 protection. Senator, I don't want to do the 4 kind of outrageous judge bashing that's easy for 5 newspaper reporters to do, or others to do, but 6 the fact is that we are in an environment now 7 where there are judges who don't want to be 8 criticized by this newspaper or that newspaper, 9 and so I'm telling you, take this -- and you can 10 take this to the bank, orders of protection, if 11 asked for now, are being given and the excuse 12 is, "Well, in the discretion of the court I'm 13 going to issue it." Why? Because God forbid 14 anything happens that judge's name isn't going 15 to be in the paper that he refused an order for 16 protection. 17 As if that wasn't bad enough, now 18 the suggestion is that somebody is going to have 19 to pay for it. Now, I certainly believe that 20 orders of protection, while they can not stop 21 massive assaults on people by people who are 22 going to do it, I think it's an important tool, 23 and I do support orders of protection, and I do 3702 1 believe that, if you have a situation where you 2 have a hearing or you have a process and a court 3 determines, based upon facts in a record, that 4 an order of protection should be issued, I don't 5 have a problem. 6 I do have a problem if it's 7 mandated, and that's my question. Is there any 8 leeway here for a judge to not charge the money, 9 because it seems to me that if a judge in 10 today's atmosphere is going to issue orders of 11 protection just to protect the judge from 12 criticism more than anything else, that to throw 13 a fine on top of it or a court charge is really 14 adding insult to people who aren't being 15 injured. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator Gold, 17 just to respond. Under this legislation, no, 18 there's no discretion but, as I mentioned to 19 Senator Paterson, this bill -- and I know what 20 we're voting on today is this bill. These types 21 of concerns are being discussed with the 22 Assembly, whether the money should be held in 23 abeyance, whether there should be an indigency 3703 1 provision. Other discussions are ongoing with 2 the Assembly. I know we're voting on the bill 3 as it is today, but I'm looking to move the 4 process forward. Hopefully the Assembly will 5 come to the table and negotiate, but in the end, 6 I can very comfortably live with this bill the 7 way it is. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, on 9 the bill, Madam President. 10 SENATOR RATH: On the bill. 11 SENATOR GOLD: And I don't want 12 to make it bigger than it is, but when we say 13 we're discussing and, therefore, it's important 14 to pass it because it may be amended, I don't 15 know where that logic comes from because the 16 only thing I see from this bill we're talking 17 about is it sets up a mandatory surcharge and, 18 if the Assembly does away with the mandatory 19 surcharge, I don't know what the bill was about 20 to begin with. But I'm telling you it's a 21 terrible thing, and we're not talking, just so 22 my colleagues understand this -- I'm not talking 23 about some minority guy on welfare. You know, 3704 1 that's an easy target for every piece of 2 legislation we ever discuss in this house. I'm 3 talking about people who are being brought into 4 the courts, an action is started, a husband and 5 wife. He works, she works, they got money. 6 Money is not the issue, Senator, but the charge 7 is made by a wife or even by a husband that an 8 order of protection is necessary and, before the 9 case even gets started, before there's a 10 hearing, a judge decides an omnibus motion and 11 along with the omnibus motion, the judge says, 12 "And in my discretion I'll issue the order of 13 protection." 14 Well, first of all, it's 15 outrageous that judges are doing that, but I 16 understand it. The press to some extent has 17 poisoned the court system, poisoned an 18 atmosphere. They won't admit it because there's 19 no guts there, but they've done that. But now 20 to add a fee on top of it, I mean it just seems 21 to me to be creating a situation which makes no 22 sense to me. 23 If some -- if an order of 3705 1 protection is needed, issue it by all means. 2 The policemen in our cities should take them 3 seriously, and I know there have been problems 4 over the years where they haven't. They should 5 be taken seriously, but, Senator, I think we 6 have an obligation in this chamber to have our 7 eyes open to what is actually happening in the 8 courtroom and, you know, years ago they used to 9 criticize the Legislature that there were too 10 many lawyers. Well, maybe today we don't have 11 enough, and I mean lawyers who practice and are 12 in the courts. 13 If you're in the courts, you see 14 the enormous pressure judges are put under. 15 You'll understand that today -- I'm not talking 16 about three weeks ago, and I'm not talking about 17 two years ago -- today there are orders of 18 protection being issued which I believe are not 19 valid, not justified, but where judges are 20 protecting themselves, and to add this kind of a 21 burden on it -- and it's not a financial burden; 22 the 25 bucks is not the financial burden, but 23 now people walk around, Gee, that guy had to get 3706 1 an order of protection out against him, and he 2 had to pay 25 bucks for it also. That's what's 3 going to happen to that man, that woman, in 4 their real life, Senator, and it's putting 5 somebody under a black cloud before the case 6 even begins, and I don't think it's fair. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 8 Leichter. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah, Madam 10 President. Would Senator Skelos yield, please. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 12 Skelos, would you yield? 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 15 Skelos, I'm not that familiar with orders of 16 protection, but it's my belief that you can get 17 an order of protection without the person 18 against whom the order is directed ever 19 appearing in court. In other words, a woman 20 would go to court, and she'll submit an 21 affidavit. She may have a bruise. Judge will 22 look. Under the circumstances -- I think 23 Senator Gold explained it very well -- it's 3707 1 reasonable for a judge to say, "O.K., I'm going 2 to issue this order. You say you were punched 3 by your boy friend Harry; I'm going to issue an 4 order, and I want the court to serve it on 5 Harry," whatever his last name is. 6 Harry has never been in court, 7 but the order issues. Am I correct in the 8 procedure? 9 SENATOR SKELOS: $25 surcharge. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. Now, it 11 turns out, Senator, that this was totally made 12 up. She was mad at Harry for something else, 13 and she made it up and while I don't mean to say 14 that most of the time when women go and try to 15 get orders of protection, probably in 95 percent 16 or 98 percent of the cases it's appropriate, but 17 here you've got a case, the order issued. Then 18 Harry shows up in court and the order is vacated 19 and so on. 20 But am I not correct under this 21 bill, and I think you just blurted it out - 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, the answer 23 is $25 surcharge. 3708 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, yes, I 2 mean I don't think anything more ought to be 3 said. I think you ought to just withdraw the 4 bill. I mean it makes no sense whatsoever. I 5 mean with all due respect. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 7 Leichter, last year the bill passed 57 to 1. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Same bill? 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Same bill, 10 passed 57 to 1. I think you may have voted 11 against it. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm not going 13 to say - 14 SENATOR SKELOS: But the bill did 15 pass. I think it's a good bill standing up by 16 itself, but I think through discussions with the 17 Assembly there may be some changes, but I can 18 support the bill, as 57 other Senators did last 19 year, once again this year. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if 21 you would continue once again to continue to 22 yield. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 3709 1 Skelos. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Do you think 3 it is fair that somebody who is found not to 4 have been properly the object or the subject of 5 an order of protection, that that person should 6 be forced to pay $25 even though the order is 7 found to have been given on totally false 8 testimony or affidavits? 9 SENATOR SKELOS: I think in the 10 end, the fact that the legal services that will 11 be provided to indigent women outweighs perhaps 12 that person having to pay $25. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam 14 President, if Senator Skelos will be good enough 15 to yield. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 17 Skelos, would you yield for another question? 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Madam 19 President. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, what 21 sort of collection system have you set up to - 22 to collect this $25? Where is the judgment 23 provided? 3710 1 SENATOR SKELOS: I suppose the 2 court collects the money. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator, 4 with all due respect, if you will continue to 5 yield, how does the court collect money? You 6 don't wave a magic wand. Suppose Harry says, 7 "What are you talking about? I wasn't even in 8 the country at that time. I'm not going to pay 9 $25." How do you collect? Who goes out and 10 collects the $25? 11 SENATOR SKELOS: The judge would 12 issue an order. You pay -- you pay the $25 13 surcharge. If not, you would be held in 14 contempt. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 16 Leichter. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, I think 18 Senator Skelos will continue to yield. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 20 Skelos, will you continue to yield? 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Do you know 22 the costs that are involved in this sort of a 23 procedure? Do you know the burden that you're 3711 1 placing on the court to collect the $25 fee 2 which you admit shouldn't -- the person who's 3 being asked to pay the fee, in justice, should 4 not have to pay? 5 SENATOR SKELOS: I think in most 6 instances as you indicated that in your opinion 7 98 percent of the orders of protection that are 8 issued are valid, I think in most instances the 9 person would pay the $25 surcharge. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam 11 President, if Senator Skelos will yield. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 13 Skelos yields. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Probably to 15 the last question. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you very 17 much. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, 19 doesn't it bother you that you have not taken 20 the time to write protections for that two 21 percent -- maybe you and I agree that two -- two 22 percent of the orders or five percent of the 23 orders are invalid -- wouldn't it be fairer to 3712 1 provide a way that, if it is found that the 2 order of protection was issued on false 3 testimony or false affidavits, that the money 4 should not be collected, it should be refunded; 5 is that so difficult? 6 SENATOR SKELOS: I feel very 7 comfortable in voting yes on this bill. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 9 Leichter, on the bill. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, you 11 know, Madam President, you know, I think we have 12 a certain obligation to put forward bills that 13 not only make good press releases or may make 14 sense conceptually, and conceptually I can see a 15 way to work out your bill that I would support. 16 I like the idea, but the -- and I'm sorry to say 17 this to you, Senator, sorry to say this to you, 18 but there's almost an arrogance, "Listen, I can 19 pass anything. I can write nonsense and I'll 20 get 31 votes," and, Senator, that's what it is. 21 I want to tell you, the previous 22 bill we passed that I voted for because I don't 23 want to make any big fuss, I think that is so 3713 1 inartfully drafted that I think it's 2 embarrassing. I'll just go over it, and the 3 reason I will, Senator, is because I think it 4 has bearing on this bill and the question of 5 what we're about and whether we're going to pass 6 serious legislation, whether we -- whether we 7 consider what we pass as having to -- to meet 8 certain standards of clarity. 9 A previous bill makes it 10 perfectly unclear whether, in order for somebody 11 to avail themselves of the hot line, they have 12 to be a victim who was -- who was involved in a 13 pending criminal proceeding, so you don't cover 14 an instance where a person may have been a 15 victim, may not be involved in a criminal 16 proceeding, may not have even been a criminal 17 proceeding. I don't know what that means. 18 I think it's things like that 19 that, before the bill is put on the floor, we 20 ought to try to -- we ought to see that they're 21 written in a sensible way, and I don't mean to 22 be critical of staffs, Senator, because I think 23 they do the best job, but I think before we put 3714 1 the bill out, I think we have the responsibility 2 to do more than say, Well, I'm comfortable with 3 it; let the Assembly make the necessary 4 corrections to it, and I think in this 5 particular instance, Senator, I think there's 6 glaring draft -- draftsman errors in this bill, 7 and I think not to cover when you easily could, 8 the case of an order of protection issued 9 against somebody who is found not to have done 10 anything wrong, and why make that person pay? 11 You say, Well, it's for a good cause. Then 12 maybe you ought to provide that everybody in the 13 state ought to pay $25 into a sort of a victims' 14 fund. That may be fine, because that's really 15 what you're doing, but if it is based that 16 somebody has done something wrong, then indeed 17 it ought to require a finding that that person 18 has done something wrong, and even then you - 19 you don't provide any means for collection to 20 make the collection proceed on the basis of an 21 order of contempt, which are very difficult to 22 enforce and expensive, rather than providing at 23 least for judgment so a judgment could be 3715 1 entered and then the marshal could very easily 2 enforce it. 3 I think these are errors that can 4 be corrected, but I think we so often find here 5 once you people put a bill on the floor, that is 6 sacred, it cannot be improved by anyone. All 7 the years I've been here, I doubt if ten times 8 somebody has withdrawn a bill when objections 9 were made on the basis of a technical error and 10 said, "O.K., you're right, I'll correct it." 11 So, Senator, we're not against 12 the concepts of the previous bill or this bill, 13 but I would be embarrassed -- I would be 14 embarrassed voting for a bill like that because 15 I think it is so inartfully and so unfairly 16 drawn. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 18 Montgomery, did you wish to speak on the bill? 19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Madam 20 President. 21 I wonder if the sponsor would 22 yield for a question. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 3716 1 Skelos, will you yield? Senator yields. 2 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, thank 3 you, Senator Skelos. 4 Senator, I note that in 1995 your 5 bill passed 56 to 1, and I was the only one to 6 vote against it, and I just want to ask you I 7 guess a similar question to what I did before. 8 This bill only relates to domestic violence, or 9 does it relate to anybody against whom an order 10 of protection is issued? 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Domestic 12 violence. 13 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Only to 14 domestic violence. Is there any reason that you 15 only for that -- that you only wanted to deal 16 with those kinds of -- those issues? 17 SENATOR SKELOS: The surcharge 18 applies to any order of protection. The money 19 goes into the Office of Prevention of Domestic 20 Violence to be used for legal services 21 concerning domestic violence charges. 22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right, 23 Senator. That means then in an instance such as 3717 1 I've experienced recently where one of my 2 constituents, I had to get an order of 3 protection against that person - 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 5 I can't hear Senator Montgomery. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: We need a 7 little quiet in the chamber, please. 8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I have, up 9 until now, an order of protection because 10 someone was targeting me for an attack, and it 11 means then that that person has to pay the $25 12 surcharge and, if that is the case, that person 13 becomes even more aggravated and stands a chance 14 to wait for me outside my office when I'm 15 leaving late at night. 16 Is that -- is it fair to say that 17 that's a possibility since, you know, my office 18 is public, so I can't really keep people from 19 coming near there? The order of protection may 20 or may not be effective, but the person is 21 further aggravated based on this surcharge. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: If there's an 23 order of protection, you should pay a $25 3718 1 surcharge. 2 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: So that 3 would be the case. Thank you, Senator Skelos. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 5 it's correct, you voted against the bill last 6 year, not Senator Leichter. I believe Senator 7 Leichter supported it last year. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 9 Montgomery, on the bill. 10 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you. 11 Madam President, just briefly on the bill. 12 As I had indicated when I voted 13 against the bill last year, to Senator Skelos 14 and I believe in committee as well, my concern 15 is that in domestic violence cases specifically, 16 and I believe in general, when one has to get an 17 order of protection, there is a serious conflict 18 that has existed and that is oftentimes 19 accompanied by a level of violence from one 20 person to another, and if now the individual has 21 to pay a surcharge, it seems to me it would 22 further aggravate the situation, and the -- the 23 person for whom the order is to protect then, it 3719 1 seems to me, becomes vulnerable to -- to the 2 attack and especially in light of the fact that 3 orders of protection generally are not really 4 and truly efficient in keeping another person 5 who really wants to harm someone from doing so. 6 So I'm just going to vote against 7 this, not because I am opposed to punishment for 8 people who engage in any form of domestic 9 violence as well as any other violence toward 10 another person, but I certainly would not want 11 to support legislation that I feel would really 12 aggravate a situation where this is the case, so 13 I'm going to vote no again this year. 14 Thank you, Madam President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator? 16 Read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 11. This 18 act shall take effect on the 1st day of 19 November. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 3720 1 the negative on Calendar Number 393 are Senators 2 Gold, Leichter, Montgomery, Seabrook and 3 Waldon. Ayes 54, nays 5. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 5 is passed. 6 Senator Waldon, why do you rise? 7 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President, 8 I was called out of the chamber on business in 9 regard to my Senatorial District and failed to 10 be present when 296 was voted upon. I ask 11 unanimous consent to be recorded in the 12 negative. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Unanimous 14 consent to be recorded in the negative. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 450, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print Number 17 6316-A, an act to amend the Environmental 18 Conservation Law, in relation to permitting the 19 hunting of game on Sunday. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: 22 Explanation has been requested, Senator 23 Marcellino. 3721 1 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, Madam 2 President. This bill amends the Environmental 3 Conservation Law authorizing the hunting of game 4 on Sunday during the hunting season in the 5 Southern Tier, central and western regions of 6 the state of New York for three years from the 7 effective date of this chapter. 8 In other words, this is the last 9 bill that Bob Banister worked on and negotiated 10 the settlement and negotiated the agreement 11 between those who had some problems with it 12 earlier. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Are there 14 any further questions? 15 Senator Gold, why do you rise? 16 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Senator, 17 would you yield to a question, please? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 19 Marcellino, would you yield? 20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Sure. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 22 will yield. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, just so I 3722 1 understand this. Right now we ban this activity 2 on Sunday, is that correct? 3 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, in 4 those regions. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Do you know - 6 pardon me? 7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Those 8 regions cited in the bill only. 9 SENATOR GOLD: I see. So are 10 there any other regions that would be left out 11 now? 12 SENATOR MARCELLINO: No. 13 SENATOR GOLD: This would not be 14 statewide. 15 SENATOR MARCELLINO: This would 16 be uniformly - 17 SENATOR GOLD: Do you know why - 18 the legislative history why hunting was not 19 allowed on Sunday? 20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: It's my 21 understanding that this bill, the concept went 22 back to the "blue laws" and there was concern 23 for activities such as hunting and others, other 3723 1 things that were done on what would be 2 considered a Christian sabbath of Sunday. 3 However, as in the case of many 4 of the other issues under the "blue laws" we've 5 reconsidered them over time, and this particular 6 bill would only apply for a three-year period of 7 time and then at the end of which we can go back 8 to the old system, make it permanent or amend it 9 as necessary. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Madam President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 12 Gold. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, Madam 14 President, on the bill. 15 I don't see any reason why, if 16 somebody wants to, they can't take a shot on 17 Sunday, and there also happen to be laws which 18 say you can't sell liquor on Sunday and somebody 19 may want to take a different kind of shot on a 20 Sunday, and I don't know why we can't get rid of 21 that law also. 22 There's a bill I have in, and 23 I've had it in for a couple years, which would 3724 1 allow Orthodox Jewish store owners who close on 2 Saturday and who service communities who do all 3 kinds of other business on Sunday to be 4 permitted to sell liquor on Sundays in those 5 communities, and I think that it's about time we 6 stop the discrimination that we have as regards 7 certain industries and certain groups in our 8 society. 9 You can go out throughout this 10 state. There isn't a mall that closes on 11 Sunday. There isn't a restaurant usually that 12 closes in most places. You can go to a movie, 13 do a million things, and I support your bill, 14 Senator, and I'd be very grateful if you would 15 tell Senator Bruno about your bill so he could 16 focus on it. 17 I know that Senator Skelos has 18 had many, many letters, I'm told, and petitions 19 in his district, and I've had them in mine, 20 where people just want to be treated the same as 21 anybody else. We respect Christianity; we 22 respect everybody, but we want the same respect 23 and, while I did not make my motion to discharge 3725 1 last week -- it wouldn't have made any 2 difference anyway the way your party votes -- I 3 do urge that Senator Goodman, who I'm also told 4 supports my bill and has it in his committee, be 5 allowed to let my bill out of committee. 6 I'm really tired of having bills 7 come through which allow things to happen on 8 Sunday because it's inconvenient for one person 9 or another and then we are told that this group 10 of Orthodox Jews cannot be granted relief by 11 this Legislature. I think the time has come to 12 stop that particular kind of discrimination. 13 Senator Marcellino, I respect 14 your bill, and I respect the people you're 15 trying to help. I'm not a hunter, but I respect 16 people who hunt and, if they want to hunt on a 17 Sunday, that's their business. I think your 18 party and for those in the Assembly who haven't 19 let out the bill, it applies to them also, it's 20 about time that the particular discrimination 21 that Senator Solomon, when he was here, fought 22 for, that Senator Kruger has been fighting for, 23 I've gotten support from Senator Lachman and 3726 1 others, Senator Stavisky, I can name a lot of 2 people. There's a discrimination here and it 3 ought to stop. My bill does that pure and 4 simple, and I would urge that the same fairness 5 that was given to your bill, the consideration 6 of your bill is given to my bill and, while it 7 doesn't affect a lot of people, the Orthodox 8 Jews who are affected by my bill are entitled to 9 relief. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 11 last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 19 is passed. 20 Senator Skelos, why do you rise? 21 SENATOR SKELOS: There will be an 22 immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in the 23 Majority Conference Room. 3727 1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Immediate 2 meeting of the Rules Committee in the Majority 3 Conference Room. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 614, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print Number 6 2612-A, an act to amend the Penal Law, in 7 relation to increasing the penalties for sale of 8 controlled substances. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: 11 Explanation has been requested. Senator 12 Hoblock. 13 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Madam 14 President, this bill amends the section 220 of 15 the Penal Law increasing the penalty for the 16 sale of a controlled substance within an area 17 defined as public housing or public housing 18 project. 19 What this legislation does, it 20 pretty much tracks the increase in the 21 legislation we passed for the sale of controlled 22 substances in and around schools and play 23 grounds. 3728 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Madam 2 President, if Senator Hoblock would yield for a 3 question? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Yes, 5 Senator Hoblock. 6 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Sure. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 8 Hoblock, we've had a number of pieces of 9 legislation that definitely offer a higher 10 penalty for certain types of crimes committed 11 against perhaps protected classes of people or 12 protected areas such as a playground, as you 13 pointed out, or a church or a synagogue, that 14 kind of thing. We've also had some pieces of 15 legislation which I thought just protected 16 geographic locations such as crimes on the 17 subway and, in this case, the sale of controlled 18 substances in public housing. 19 My initial question is, what 20 makes public housing so special as opposed to 21 any other area that the penalty should be higher 22 for the sale? 23 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Well, Senator 3729 1 Paterson, as we discussed last year, this 2 legislation came to me at the specific request 3 of public housing officials in this area who 4 were very concerned about what was happening, 5 and some of these drug dealers and others that 6 are in this illicit business taking advantage on 7 those folks that are living in these housing 8 projects, and felt that one effort to make it 9 more palatable and more enticing for those folks 10 that live there, that we try to rid that 11 particular community of these drug dealers. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 13 Madam President. 14 Senator Hoblock, I respect the 15 point of view of public housing officials in 16 this particular area. But before I even ask 17 you, how much of this area, what percentage of 18 the population, lives in public housing? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: A 20 question, Senator Paterson? 21 SENATOR PATERSON: That's a 22 question. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: A 3730 1 question, Senator Hoblock. 2 SENATOR HOBLOCK: I'm not sure; 3 I'm not sure of that statistic. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Madam 5 President, if Senator Hoblock will yield to 6 another question. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 8 Hoblock, will you yield to another question? 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Madam 10 President, isn't it possible that this is an 11 institutional response? There aren't any 12 private housing officials. Yes, there is a 13 tremendous drug problem that may exist all 14 over. So what I'm saying, this may exist in 15 public housing, but I don't see why the penalty 16 should be any higher. 17 I think what the public officials 18 are saying to you, Senator, is we have a problem 19 with drugs, but I think if you talk to anybody 20 lives anywhere else, they're going to tell you 21 we have a problem with drugs; and so what I'm 22 saying is, I don't see the need to protect one 23 particular area geographically of a community, 3731 1 because a community is more than just a 2 geographic location. It's a relationship 3 between all of the different neighborhoods and 4 all of the different people that live within the 5 community. 6 What I'm suggesting is that this 7 bill is somewhat -- that this bill, in a sense, 8 favors a certain area over another simply 9 because there's an institution that manifests 10 the complaint, but that a perusal of the whole 11 neighborhood would demonstrate that there's no 12 need for the penalties to be any higher in a 13 specific area. 14 What there's a need for is 15 greater law enforcement with respect to 16 controlling drug trafficking and substance 17 abuse. 18 So my question is, why is public 19 housing more important than the other areas 20 other than the fact that the officials or the 21 agency complained? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 23 Hoblock. 3732 1 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Well, I think, 2 Senator Paterson, as I said before in relation 3 to -- this creates the identical provision that 4 we have for schools, playgrounds, and I think 5 that we should be extremely sensitive, not 6 overly protective of certain areas, particularly 7 where people live and people are together with 8 their families, that obviously we can't control 9 every inch of every territory, but I think that 10 when people go home and spend time with their 11 families they should have this added and extra 12 protection, and perhaps you might want to join 13 with us in sponsoring some legislation that 14 would increase the penalties for this particular 15 offense for everyone, and then we wouldn't have 16 this problem if, in fact, we can agree that we 17 should increase these offenses and make it a 18 much stronger message to anyone that deals in 19 this particular trade. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 21 Paterson, Senator Lachman has asked if you would 22 yield the floor for a question from your 23 colleague? 3733 1 SENATOR LACHMAN: Senator 2 Paterson, can you yield so I can extend your 3 line of reasoning and ask Senator Hoblock a 4 question in this area? 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Certainly, 6 Senator. 7 SENATOR LACHMAN: I'm aware of 8 the fact that schools have drug-free zones and 9 crime-free zones, but there is a distinction 10 between schools and housing, whether they're 11 public housing or private housing. The reason, 12 the rationale for the drug-free and crime-free 13 zones around the schools is that we as adults 14 are in loco parenti to children. 15 You don't have a similar 16 situation in terms of housing. Will the Senator 17 consider amending the Penal Law to extend the - 18 the penalty for the sale of controlled 19 substances not only in public housing but also 20 extend it to private housing? As Senator 21 Paterson has been saying, what is the 22 distinction between public housing and private 23 housing? 3734 1 The distinction between housing 2 of any sort and schools is a very wide 3 distinction. We are not in loco parenti to 4 residents of public housing or private housing, 5 and what is good for public housing should be 6 good for private housing. 7 SENATOR HOBLOCK: When you refer 8 to private housing, do you refer to apartment 9 houses? 10 SENATOR LACHMAN: Sure. 11 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Well, I think 12 maybe that's the next piece of legislation we 13 can entertain. We'll get that one done first, 14 and then we can bring that one. I agree. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 16 Waldon, did you wish to comment on the bill? 17 SENATOR WALDON: Yes, I had hoped 18 for an opportunity to ask the learned Senator 19 from Albany a question or two. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 21 Hoblock, do your yield? 22 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Sure. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 3735 1 Senator yields. 2 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Madam 3 President. Thank you, Senator. 4 Last year we discussed and 5 debated this bill and, at that time, excuse me, 6 I tried to raise to you my concerns in regard to 7 the composition, meaning the make-up of the 8 people who live in the projects. To cut to the 9 chase, I shared with you the information that 10 there are over 660,000 people in the project in 11 the city of New York, that they're overwhelm 12 ingly black and Latino, and that this bill, if 13 it were to become law in the state of New York, 14 would disparately impact those people? 15 I'm not condoning the sale of 16 drugs. My concern was and is now that, if we're 17 going to have such a bill, it should be applied 18 equally to everyone, the buyer and the seller, 19 the people who come to the projects, and I cited 20 at that time South Jamaica houses have license 21 plates from Connecticut, New Jersey, some of 22 them drive Mercedes-Benzes, "beamers" as my son 23 says, BMWs, Jaguars. People who live in South 3736 1 Jamaica houses cannot afford those cars, except 2 the "pusher man", and my concern was that if 3 this were to become law then people who may be 4 on the fringe of whatever this is would be 5 overwhelmingly disparately impacted. I want to 6 take this to another level at this time and I'll 7 get to the question if you will just bear with 8 me. 9 When you look at this along with 10 the Police and Public Protection Act, and when 11 you look at this proposal of yours along with 12 what I discussed some moments ago, Mr. 13 Schectman's report, and when you look at the 14 8,800 prison cells proposed by the Governor to 15 be built at a cost of $486 million, do we see 16 the "field of dreams" of Governor Pataki as the 17 prisons? 18 If you remember, in the film, 19 there was a poignant moment in the film "Field 20 of Dreams", when it was said, If you build it, 21 they will come. Do you see this as a 22 possibility that this Governor wants to build 23 prisons and that this bill you're proposing will 3737 1 compound the direction, the flow of people of 2 flesh towards the prisons? 3 I know that's a convoluted 4 question, but I beg you to try to answer it. 5 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Well, I'll try 6 the best way I can, Senator Waldon. 7 First of all, I don't remember 8 the conversation -- I do remember the 9 conversation we had last year along these same 10 lines. We're not dealing -- this legislation is 11 not dealing with -- I'm not dealing with the 12 residents of these projects, because you have 13 statistics on those that reside in New York 14 City. I'm not sure of the statistics up here in 15 this area, but I could tell you that one of the 16 -- one of the cities that asked for this 17 legislation here locally would have a population 18 totally different than you've described that's 19 in New York City, and as far as, you know, the 20 field -- your analysis of the "Field of Dreams" 21 and building it and they will come, I have to 22 tell you that I don't think we ought to be 23 driving our criminal laws and the sanctions that 3738 1 we provide based on whether or not we think 2 there ought to be prisons. 3 Certainly, as we strengthen these 4 laws, we're going to have to provide. We're 5 going to have to provide for that, but I guess 6 what you're asking me is to go to the other side 7 as the alternative and because we don't want to 8 have prisons, we don't want to build prisons, 9 therefore, we shouldn't have any strong laws. I 10 don't agree with that. 11 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President, 12 on the bill. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: On the 14 bill, Senator Waldon. 15 SENATOR WALDON: I want to thank 16 Senator Hoblock for his answer. I know that it 17 was candid and forthright. 18 I was not suggesting, Madam 19 President and my colleagues, that for those who 20 are violators of the law and especially in this 21 insidious activity of drug sales, that they 22 should not go to prison. What I am trying to 23 make as a point last year and this year and many 3739 1 times when I stand and beg your indulgence on 2 this floor, is that of how racism does have an 3 effect on the composition of the prisons in the 4 state of New York, and if we're going to have 5 law let's create laws which will ensure equity 6 in the prison population, meaning that those who 7 commit the crimes, let's make sure that all who 8 commit the crimes go to jail, and I was suggest 9 ing that the experience that we have seen in 10 South Jamaica and in areas like South Jamaica is 11 that the people who have the money to buy the 12 drugs aren't black, aren't from South Jamaica, 13 aren't from Far Rockaway, aren't from Bayview 14 Park, and they drive up in their sleek 15 automobiles, buy their what they call leisure 16 activity drugs and go away somewhere, but the 17 kids who are in that neighborhood when the crime 18 combat teams come through whether they're the 19 seller or not, often -- all too often are 20 arrested, and I'm suggesting that this bill if 21 it were to become law in this state would 22 compound that, and I was further suggesting that 23 we ought to be mindful of the direction that 3740 1 we're heading as a state and as a people in 2 regard to ensuring that these cells proposed by 3 Governor Pataki will be filled. 4 Unfortunately, if the way that 5 they're being filled now continues, most of the 6 people will continue to look just like me, will 7 come from areas where I grew up and sometimes go 8 now to represent my constituents and our 9 constituents, and I just think that we ought to 10 be better than that, and I guess what I'm really 11 hoping is that one of these days on this floor 12 I'm going to say something that will excite 13 intellectually everyone around here, and we'll 14 begin to focus on putting the money on the front 15 end where it's better spent, it's less costly, 16 it saves human lives, it saves pain and 17 suffering. We'll all be more secure in our 18 homes and in our persons, but this madness about 19 building of prison cells in such a proliferating 20 manner is not the way that I think we ought to 21 go. 22 I hope that one day we won't go 23 in that direction, and one day even the little 3741 1 children in South Jamaica, South Bronx, Bed-Stuy 2 will know that they're judged by the content of 3 their character because the school system has 4 made it possible for them to have character and 5 to be productive human beings and not that some 6 cop unfortunately will judge them only on the 7 basis of the color of their skin, and they will 8 become just another criminal justice statistic. 9 Thank you, Madam President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank 11 you, Senator Waldon. 12 Senator Montgomery. 13 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Madam 14 President. Would the sponsor answer a 15 question? 16 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Sure. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 18 Hoblock yields for a question. 19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, thank 20 you. 21 Senator Hoblock, could you 22 explain to me what is the difference in a person 23 who would be arrested under this law and a 3742 1 person who would be arrested under the law as it 2 currently exists outside of housing or in 3 housing? 4 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Sure. Let me 5 try to find it for you. 6 Right now, under Section 220 of 7 the Penal Law, various degrees of sale, criminal 8 sale of a controlled substance, they go from the 9 fourth degree right -- right on, and what this 10 legislation does, it amends Section 220 by 11 adding a subdivision 16 that defines "public 12 housing project" and creates a felony, I believe 13 it's a "C" felony, for sale of a controlled 14 substance. 15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: So it raises 16 it from a -- it raises an identical charge from 17 -- from say an "E" felony to a "C" or a "D" to 18 an "E" or - 19 SENATOR HOBLOCK: That's what I'm 20 tryin' to find for you, and I apologize, I don't 21 have that at the tip of my fingers. Well, 22 Section 22 has various degrees. 23 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: O.K. 3743 1 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Raises each 2 one. For instance 220.34 has sale of a 3 controlled substance in the fourth agree which 4 is a Class C felony; 224.39 is a Class B felony 5 and so on, so there's four different degrees, 6 and what this does is it puts into the 7 definition of "controlled substance" when we're 8 talkin' about the sale of controlled substance, 9 public housing projects, so it increases the 10 various levels from, if it's a "C" now, it will 11 be a "B", and so on. 12 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right. 13 Thank you. Now, Senator, if you would continue 14 to yield. 15 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Sure. 16 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: For my 17 clarification. It's my understanding that under 18 current law you can get up to seven years in 19 prison for the possession of a vial of "crack", 20 is that -- is that correct? Is that your 21 understanding or - 22 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Possession? 23 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Possession, 3744 1 yes, or with the assumption to sell, whatever it 2 is. 3 SENATOR HOBLOCK: I don't know 4 that. 5 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right. 6 Senator, if you would continue to yield. 7 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Sure. 8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: The federal 9 Housing and Urban Development agency has begun 10 to enforce -- it's my understanding they intend 11 to enforce their own very strict law regarding 12 any activity, any criminal activity within 13 federal housing projects, that upon one 14 conviction or if there is evidence of a person's 15 being involved in criminal activity, they can be 16 evicted from a single incident or single 17 charge. 18 SENATOR HOBLOCK: This is federal 19 housing? 20 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: This is the 21 federal housing law which is now being 22 enforced. Apparently it's been on the books for 23 some time, but it's never been enforced. It's 3745 1 my understanding that that is going to be very 2 vigorously enforced now. 3 Will -- do you still see the need 4 for your legislation despite the fact that the 5 -- there is a new enforcement of this -- this 6 criminal code in housing? 7 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yeah, I think 8 there's a -- there's a definite distinction 9 between the federal and the state laws as far as 10 the jurisdiction of the law enforcement 11 communities and the federal staffing, because 12 it's going to take federal people to incorporate 13 that into the federal system so, yeah, I do 14 think there should be a need for state law. 15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right. 16 If you -- just one final question, Senator. 17 Madam President, if the Senator would continue 18 to yield. You have indicated that a group in 19 your own district came to you requesting that 20 such legislation be introduced. Is it not the 21 case that what those residents, as the residents 22 in my own district, complain and request the 23 ability to do is have a speedy eviction of 3746 1 people who are engaged in criminal activity so 2 that they are not -- they do not have to suffer 3 the consequences of this kind of activity in a 4 given building, that it's really the eviction, 5 that they want to get rid of the people who are 6 engaged in such activities? 7 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Well, it may 8 not necessarily be the people that are living 9 there, people that come on the premises as 10 well. They use that, such as one would try to 11 use a school ground because that's an enticing 12 audience in some cases. 13 As far as the -- the group of 14 individuals that initially requested this, it 15 came from -- from and through the people that 16 lived there because the request came to me in 17 the form of a resolution from the City Council 18 after a situation and set of circumstances had 19 been presented to this Council, and there was an 20 open forum in which this was discussed, and as a 21 result, City Council drafted a resolution 22 requesting that this be done. They felt it was 23 in their best interests and the proper way to 3747 1 handle this particular problem, not necessarily 2 because there were problems with the residents 3 in dealing with this issue but rather those that 4 were coming onto the property, because as the 5 legislation indicates, it's within a thousand 6 feet as well, so it's those that are coming onto 7 the premises, not even going into the building 8 perhaps, but coming onto the playgrounds, 9 perhaps the entranceways, parking lots and 10 whatever, and trying to entice those people that 11 live there. 12 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: O.K. Thank 13 you, Senator Hoblock. 14 Madam President, briefly on the 15 bill. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: On the 17 bill, Senator Montgomery. 18 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes. There 19 -- the problem that Senator Hoblock is trying 20 to address is one that is not unique to his 21 district certainly, and not unique to mine, but 22 it is for certain a major problem as it relates 23 to public housing since there are such very 3748 1 large concentrations of people living together. 2 But I think, if I understand the problem from 3 the perspective of the residents who live in 4 public housing, they need to be able to, one, 5 control the kinds of people who are accepted 6 into housing, that there should be a higher 7 standard of behavior so that people having to 8 live so close together respect more definitively 9 each others' rights as neighbors and, two, that 10 we should not allow people who are engaged in 11 criminal activity to be able to continue to live 12 in a building or in a development without any 13 consequences for that activity, especially in 14 light of the fact that it attracts other 15 criminal elements, as well as it destroys the 16 quality of life of an entire development. 17 So I understand what people in 18 public housing want, and I think that I also 19 understand what Senator Hoblock is trying to 20 address, but this legislation simply adds a new 21 level of, or a -- it's -- it expands the net for 22 arresting people and charging them at a higher 23 level and, in fact, we know that a very large 3749 1 percentage of the people who are now 2 overcrowding the prisons and jails are in there 3 because of the Rockefeller drug laws and the 4 second felony laws that have been passed 5 subsequently. 6 So this will crowd the prisons, 7 crowd the jails for extended periods of time 8 without necessarily addressing the real problem 9 that the housing -- the residents of housing 10 authority developments throughout the state are 11 asking for. 12 I, too, support Senator Hoblock's 13 wish to give some relief to those residents, but 14 I certainly don't think that it's a wise idea 15 for us in the Legislature to -- to put forth 16 legislation which will ultimately cost the state 17 an enormous amount of money by increasing the 18 cost to us of longer prison sentences for these 19 individuals when there is obviously another more 20 efficient and more cost-effective measure to 21 take that would protect people in public 22 housing. 23 So I'm going to vote against 3750 1 this, not because I don't want to protect the 2 interests of people in public housing in Albany 3 as well as in Brooklyn, but because I think that 4 this is just not the way to go because it 5 doesn't really solve the problem. 6 Thank you. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank 8 you, Senator. 9 Senator Abate, did you wish to 10 speak? 11 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, on the 12 bill. 13 I understand the sponsor's 14 intention and his -- or seemingly his concern 15 about the quality of life in public housing. 16 Why I oppose the bill is because I don't 17 understand the rationale for the bill. No one 18 is saying, either side of the aisle, that 19 punishment is not appropriate, sometimes 20 treatment and punishment. Treatment is a form 21 of punishment, but if you look at what's on the 22 books today, if someone is charged with a "D" 23 felony, the judge has seven years scope of 3751 1 punishment. 2 This bill is saying that if 3 someone is arrested for sale in a public housing 4 area that seven years is not enough. The judge 5 needs 15 years scope, and my understanding is 6 that someone now currently can be charged with a 7 "C" felony which the scope of punishment is 15 8 years, but that's not enough, and that person 9 should be charged with a "B" felony which means 10 it would raise the scope of punishment up to 25 11 years. 12 We do know that, whether it's 7 13 years, 15, 25 or under the Rockefeller drug laws 14 where offenders could be sentenced up to life, 15 we are not as a state soft on people who possess 16 or sell drugs. The proof of the pudding is for 17 the past, I guess 15 years at least, the 18 majority of people in prison are there for 19 drug-related crimes, either possessing or 20 selling drugs. 21 So I can't understand the 22 rationale or purpose. We're already punishing 23 severely people who possess and sell drugs. 3752 1 There is scope of punishment within the 7, 15, 2 or 25 to life sentence, for people to say, "I 3 don't like you selling near a home or a public 4 housing area. I'm not going to give you one and 5 a half to three, I'm going to give you two to 6 four or two and a half to five or three and a 7 half to seven." There's a huge range of 8 punishment that could take into consideration 9 some of the unique circumstances of the case. 10 There are many vulnerable people 11 in our society. There are many vulnerable and 12 poor people in our society. Where do you draw 13 the line? Should we now be extending sales of 14 drugs outside of senior citizen centers? They 15 are very vulnerable. They can be easily victim 16 ized. 17 So I don't understand the 18 rationale. I don't understand how this would 19 make that community safer, extending the 20 punishment from 15 to 25 years as a range of 21 sentence. I believe the sentences as they apply 22 now are sufficient on the books. Someone who's 23 a heavy trafficker can get life in prison, could 3753 1 get up to 25 years. 2 So I think we as a Legislature 3 have to be very careful when we pick apart 4 vulnerable communities, vulnerable segments of 5 our society, different kinds of constituency and 6 say, We're going to give more time to that 7 offender in that community as opposed to 8 another. 9 If we are -- if we were soft on 10 crime, if we weren't already punishing people 11 who sell drugs, I would say, Senator Hoblock, 12 it's needed. But this is not needed in terms of 13 deterrence. It's not needed in terms of 14 retribution or just desserts. These individuals 15 are going to jail and prison because we have a 16 second felony offender law. They can't walk 17 away from being punished or sentenced to prison, 18 so I don't think for all the public safety, I 19 don't see the effectiveness of this approach in 20 terms of deterrence or promoting public safety 21 in our housing projects and, for that reason, 22 until I can see a rationale to supporting this 23 legislation, I have to oppose it today. 3754 1 Thank you very much. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 3 last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 5 act shall take effect on the 1st day of 6 November. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 11 Leichter. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam 13 President, to explain my vote. 14 I think our criminal system and 15 our criminal laws are based on the nature of the 16 acts and very rarely upon where the act is 17 committed. I have difficulty understanding 18 that, well, you sell drugs across the street 19 from a housing project that will get a lesser 20 sentence than if you sell it on the same street 21 as the housing project. It just doesn't make 22 sense. 23 It's not going to reduce the sale 3755 1 of drugs. There's no studies that have shown 2 that these higher sentences applied in these 3 circumstances will actually work as an effective 4 deterrent. I think we're just making such a 5 mish-mash of the criminal law. We've had bills 6 here that, if you commit a crime, if you bop 7 somebody on the head in the subway it's more 8 serious than if you bop them on a bus or that, 9 if you hit somebody who's 65, it's more serious 10 than if you hit a child who's two years old. 11 I think Senator Abate said it 12 very well. Where's the rationale? Where's the 13 sense? 14 Madam President, I vote in the 15 negative. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 17 Leichter in the negative. 18 Announce the vote. 19 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 20 the negative on Calendar Number 614 are Senators 21 Abate, Leichter, Montgomery, Paterson, Santiago, 22 Seabrook and Waldon. Ayes 54, nays 7. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 3756 1 is passed. 2 Next item. 3 Senator Santiago, why do you 4 rise? 5 SENATOR SANTIAGO: Madam 6 President, I wish to state for the record that 7 legislative business kept me out of the chamber 8 yesterday when Senate Bill 474 and Senate Bill 9 668 were considered. I would -- and had I been 10 present, I would have voted in the negative on 11 both of these bills. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 13 record will so reflect, Senator Santiago. 14 Clerk shall read. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 708, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print Number 17 6227, an act to amend the Executive Law, in 18 relation to payments received as profit for a 19 crime. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam 21 President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 23 Leichter. 3757 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Will 2 Senator Nozzolio yield to some questions? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 4 Nozzolio, will you yield? 5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Madam 6 President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 8 will yield. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, as I 10 understand this bill, it seems to make two 11 changes in the "Son of Sam" Law. It provides 12 that where a contractor fails to notify the 13 crime victim board that a contract has been 14 entered into for consideration with someone who 15 committed a crime and the contract deals with 16 the substance of that crime or relates to that 17 crime, that a fine of $25,000 or 25 percent of 18 the proceeds, whichever is greater, can be 19 levied, is that correct? 20 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Madam 21 President, that is correct. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: And then you 23 also provide that the notice that has to be 3758 1 given the crime victim board has to be 2 immediate, is that correct? 3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Madam 4 President. The response must be upon receipt 5 entering -- immediate notification to the crime 6 victims board upon entering into that contract, 7 so upon execution, Senator, that notice must be 8 given. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 10 have problems with what it means to give 11 "immediate" notice but maybe you can satisfy my 12 uncertainties about that. What is "immediate", 13 Senator? A contract is entered into at 3:00 14 o'clock in the afternoon. Can you tell me by 15 when the notice has to be furnished to the crime 16 victims board? 17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: It has to be 18 sent -- I would define "immediate", Senator, as 19 upon execution, so simultaneously upon executing 20 this contract - 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: All right. 22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: -- notice 23 should be sent to the crime victims board that 3759 1 this business arrangement is established where 2 the perpetrator of the crime who is now behind 3 bars and that that criminal has just entered 4 into a financial arrangement with - 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 6 Nozzolio continue to yield? 7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, I'll 8 continue to yield. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Yes, he 10 will yield. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, a 12 contract is entered into at 3:00 o'clock but 13 notice is given the next morning at 10:00 14 o'clock. You would say the person or the 15 company that entered into that contract should 16 be subject to a 20 -- at least a $25,000 fine. 17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Are you asking 18 me, Senator, what are the parameters for 19 notification? 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 21 asked you what "immediate" is, and you said 22 immediate in the terms of the example that I 23 gave is immediately upon execution of the 3760 1 contract. I gave you an example. You execute 2 the contract at 3:00 o'clock in the afternoon. 3 If you have send the notice the following 4 morning, you're telling me that you are subject 5 to a $25,000 fine and possibly more. 6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'll let the 7 courts interpret the scope of immediacy, 8 Senator, but frankly, "immediate" was an entry 9 into this statute because right now, to put your 10 question into context, Senator, there is no time 11 frame established for notification. There is no 12 sanction when an individual enters into such 13 agreement and does not notify. 14 So, Senator, I think that the 15 tightened language of "immediate", it means 16 now. You can take Webster and define 17 "immediate" as well as I can, Senator. I 18 suggest you go ahead and do so. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam 20 President, first of all, Senator Nozzolio, let 21 me correct you. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator, 23 do you wish Senator to yield, Senator Nozzolio? 3761 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: If he will 2 yield for a series of questions. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: A series 4 of questions? 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Senator, 6 first of all, you're correct right now the 7 statute does not have a parameter, maybe not a 8 suitable parameter. It provides for as soon as 9 a payment or intended payment is a profit from a 10 crime, and you're correct there are no 11 sanctions. 12 I have no problem establishing 13 sanctions. I think maybe $25,000 is too high, 14 but my real problem is with the word 15 "immediate". Now, your initial reaction was, 16 Senator, "immediate" means you sign that 17 contract, you have the very next thing you do, 18 you have to give that notice and, if you give it 19 the following morning, that's not immediate. 20 Then I think you realize that's a 21 little harsh, if not outright absurd, to impose 22 this $25,000 fine. So you said, Well, let the 23 courts define it; but, Senator, isn't it our job 3762 1 in the first instance to write legislation that 2 says clearly what we want, and does it in a 3 reasonable manner? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 5 Nozzolio. 6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'll try to 7 respond to Senator Leichter's speech. It - 8 Senator, the definition, "immediate", I did not 9 define it as you characterize my definition. 10 You put forth a scenario, a hypothetical that 11 said, Is the next morning immediate? I didn't 12 answer that question. 13 I believe, in my opinion, my 14 intention in putting this statute before us, 15 this change before us, is to tell those who are 16 engaged in business enterprise with convicted 17 criminals that they have a responsibility. That 18 responsibility should be, in my opinion, upon 19 execution of that contractual arrangement. 20 Execution means, I believe "immediate" is 21 appropriate in this case because it's telling 22 those who are engaging in conduct with criminals 23 that they have a responsibility to the victims 3763 1 of those crimes, that they have to notify the 2 crime victims board when they're engaging in 3 conduct with criminals. 4 I believe "immediate" is 5 appropriate. It's an appropriate statement. It 6 says that this Legislature doesn't want those 7 who are engaging with -- in money raising, 8 money-engaging activities with convicted 9 criminals that they should keep in mind that 10 there is a victim to this crime regardless of 11 how sensational and attractive the story may be 12 on the marketplace. 13 That word, Senator, is put there 14 for a reason. It sends, I believe, a really 15 clear signal. I'm not going to get mired in 16 your hypotheticals. Your hypotheticals, 17 frankly, are only used to obfuscate the 18 intention of this legislation which says "upon 19 immediate entry". "Immediate" means, as Webster 20 would define it, "right away", and "right away" 21 is what we think is the right way to engage in 22 this type of sanction. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 3764 1 Nozzolio, if you continue to yield. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 3 Nozzolio, will you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: I think the 5 example I gave you, Senator, and your response, 6 I thought, was very clear. You said that's 7 right, "immediate" means immediate. You got to 8 send it on the execution, which means if you 9 send it the following morning, you're subject to 10 a $25,000 fine. 11 Senator, may I make a suggestion 12 that's hard, I'm sure, to improve upon something 13 as much thought has been given to as you gave to 14 this bill and the care in drafting, and so on, 15 but may I suggest language, Senator, that would 16 guide the court that I think would accomplish 17 your purpose and wouldn't make us subject to 18 probably a lot of litigation as to what is 19 "immediate"? 20 Why not say it has to be sent 21 within five days, has to be sent if you want to, 22 within three days, has to be sent within seven 23 days. Certainly that's sufficient time to 3765 1 achieve the purpose. The purpose is very 2 simple. The purpose is that you don't want the 3 money to be paid out that would go to the person 4 who perpetrated the crime, and he would spend 5 the money before the crime victims board would 6 ever know. Clearly, three, five, seven days 7 provide that. 8 To put in the word "immediate", 9 Senator, frankly, if the contract was signed at 10 10:00 in the morning and you did it at 5:00 11 o'clock at night, under your definition that's 12 not immediate. So would you see anything wrong 13 with the language that I propose to you of 14 stating a specific time period? 15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, that 16 doesn't seem to be unreasonable to me. Your 17 comments do not appear blatantly unreasonable, 18 but in the world of legislation in trying to 19 fashion a bill that will become law, we have to 20 have an identical measure passed in this house 21 that is passed in the other house, in the 22 Assembly, passed last month is a measure which 23 is sponsored by a number of Assemblymen, that 3766 1 uses the word "immediate". This measure has 2 already passed the Assembly, that I believe 3 certainly your comments are not out of line but 4 I am also concerned with getting this sanction 5 available to ensure the protection of our crime 6 victims and that as such, use the identical 7 language that was used in the measure that was 8 passed in the state Assembly. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam 10 President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 12 Leichter. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator 14 Nozzolio will continue to yield. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 16 Nozzolio, you continue - 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: If I 18 understood, as I understand the exact measure 19 has passed in the Assembly, how come there's no 20 substitution of the Assembly bill? 21 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'm informed 22 that the measure relative to this language which 23 you question, Senator, the word "immediate" was 3767 1 used in the Assembly definition. That's why it 2 was transferred here. There are some minor 3 variations, some different language in other 4 aspects of the Assembly bill but those are - 5 the definition of "immediate" was to mirror that 6 substance -- substantive portion of the Assembly 7 measure. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam 9 President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 11 Nozzolio continue to yield? 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: If you will 13 continue to yield. 14 So, in other words, you're 15 telling us that it isn't as if we pass this bill 16 then we are ready to send a bill to the 17 Governor. We're going to have to revisit this 18 anyhow because there's differences between the 19 Assembly bill and the Senate bill and, while I'm 20 sure the Assembly was as careful as you were in 21 drafting your bill, I think the word 22 "immediate", I think creates a real problem and 23 I have difficulty with it particularly when the 3768 1 fine is so substantial. 2 Maybe $25,000 is -- is an 3 appropriate minimum fine, but then to leave any 4 uncertainty as to by what period of time that 5 notice is to be given seems to me unwise and 6 since you're going to have to write -- write a 7 new bill or write a bill that works out the 8 problems with the Assembly - 9 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, we'll 10 take certainly your constructive criticism under 11 consideration. It's taken in good spirit, that 12 in further refining this measure that I 13 certainly will engage in conversation with the 14 Assembly to see if, as we clear up the 15 differences between these measures, if this 16 remains an issue, certainly your comments will 17 be duly noted. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam 19 President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 21 Leichter. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: On the bill. 23 Thank - 3769 1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 2 Leichter, on the bill. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you very 4 much, Senator Nozzolio. I mean I don't think 5 this is a big deal except in this Legislature, 6 same problem in the Assembly and the Senate that 7 once a bill is put on the floor nobody ever 8 wants to change it even if the -- you know, as 9 Senator Nozzolio kindly said, the suggestion I 10 made is constructive. 11 The fact is that it is -- it is 12 blatantly unreasonable to say that somebody has 13 got to do something immediate without defining 14 it, but particularly if it carries with it as 15 heavy a penalty as $25,000. So I'm not going to 16 vote for this. I happen again to agree with the 17 concept. I think the statute as presently 18 worded could result and may have already 19 resulted in monies being paid to a perpetrator 20 of a crime who then decimates the funds and the 21 crime victim is denied the compensation which 22 the crime victim ought to get. 23 That makes good sense, and there 3770 1 ought to be some sort of sanction if you fail to 2 give notice. I absolutely agree with you. I 3 think 25,000 may seem to my mind really quite 4 severe, but then I think we have an obligation 5 to define clearly a reasonable period of time so 6 I'm going to vote against this until that 7 reasonable period is in a bill before us. I 8 hope we'll see it. I hope we will then be 9 dealing effectively with the problem and Senator 10 Gold, to whom we are grateful because he was, of 11 course, the author of the "Son of Sam" Law, I 12 don't know how he feels about it, but I consider 13 that a very significant statute, very important, 14 and I don't want to tinker and meddle with it in 15 a way that, frankly, is very inartful, so I'm 16 going to vote in the negative. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 18 Abate. 19 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. I'm firmly 20 in support of this bill. I think Senator 21 Leichter raises some issues about construction 22 and whether case law, in fact, defines the 23 "immediate", but the general spirit and intent 3771 1 of this legislation is so critical. 2 When I chaired the crime victims 3 board and we were dealing with "Son of Sam" 4 cases, time and time again the victim would come 5 and say, We now know of a contract and it was 6 not a contract that the crime victims board was 7 aware of because there was no teeth, there was 8 no penalty imposed upon a publisher or someone 9 else to notify the crime victims board of a 10 contract. 11 Finally, after ten years, and I 12 do compliment the leadership of Senator Nozzolio 13 on this bill, finally, there will be enough 14 remedy and teeth given to the crime victims 15 board so it gives some meaning to the law and so 16 that, in fact, restitution can be made to crime 17 victims. 18 Without the teeth, the law, the 19 modified "Son of Sam" Law is really meaning 20 less. So this is long overdue. It's an 21 important piece of legislation for crime 22 victims, and it deserves bipartisan support. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank 3772 1 you, Senator. 2 Read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60, nays 9 one, Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 11 is passed. 12 Senator Marcellino, that 13 completes the reading of the controversial - 14 one more bill, I'm sorry. 15 SENATOR MARCELLINO: No, Madam 16 President. At this time, would you please 17 recognize Senator Larkin. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: I'm 19 sorry, one more page. 20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Please 21 recognize Senator Larkin. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 23 Larkin. 3773 1 SENATOR LARKIN: Madam President, 2 yes. I was out of the chamber on Bill Number 3 688. Had I been in the chamber, I would have 4 voted yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 6 record will so reflect. 7 Secretary will read the last 8 bill. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senate Bill 10 Number 712, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Bill 11 6924, an act to amend the Penal Law to make 12 available to victims the proceeds of their 13 recoveries. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explanation. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: 16 Explanation has been requested. 17 Senator Nozzolio. 18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 19 Madam President, my colleagues. 20 This afternoon this Legislature 21 has passed or will pass no less than a dozen 22 measures dealing with the rights of crime 23 victims. In this Crime Victims Week we have 3774 1 engaged in great debate, discussion, about 2 important measures dealing with ensuring the 3 rights of victims and making each further 4 insurance that their victimization is not 5 continued by the system. 6 The Justice Department reports 7 that Americans have incurred over $450 billion 8 worth of costs related to crime each year. This 9 is an unconscionable statistic, and I believe 10 that in New York we are taking -- have taken 11 great strides in doing much for the victims of 12 crime. 13 Under the leadership of the 14 Governor and the Attorney General, further with 15 the actions of this house, we have taken 16 enormous steps to advocate on behalf of those 17 citizens unfortunate enough to be victimized by 18 criminals. 19 This measure before us extends 20 that effort in trying to ensure that when an 21 inmate receives a financial award while 22 incarcerated, that that award becomes available 23 to those who have been victimized by the 3775 1 criminal in the first place. 2 When an inmate successfully sues 3 the state or a particular locality, the victim 4 of the crime will be compensated out of the cash 5 award of the inmate. Now, that's what the bill 6 before us does, and I urge its passage. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Madam 8 President, will the sponsor yield to a couple 9 quick questions? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 11 Nozzolio, would you yield to Senator Dollinger? 12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly, 13 Madam President. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: First let me 15 say to my colleague from Monroe County, I think 16 its a great idea. It finally establishes a tie 17 between an inmate who nets a recovery from a 18 third-party claim into a benefit for victims. I 19 think it's good, I think I favor it, says that 20 if someone obtains proceeds afterward, that they 21 should disgorge those proceeds to the victim. 22 Let me ask you this question. 23 Why did you limit the bill solely to actions 3776 1 brought against government? 2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: In most cases, 3 Senator, an inmate will sue the state of New 4 York, those who are incarcerated in the state 5 system. Often a local inmate will sue the 6 county, as you're familiar with, I'm sure, but 7 we wanted to limit it to those items because 8 that's, frankly, where most of the inmate 9 litigation is directed to. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Again 11 through you, Madam President, did you consider 12 the possibility that you would make it apply to 13 third-party claims, claims brought by an inmate, 14 for example, as I once brought one against a 15 manufacturer of a saw in an incarceration 16 facility, because they didn't provide a proper 17 guard? 18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Well, Senator, 19 that type of third-party litigation would be 20 appropriate. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. 22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: But I think it 23 certainly makes sense to me and that the only 3777 1 reason why it was not imported in this bill was 2 because we wanted to put this in law because 3 that's where the bulk of the litigation 4 occurred. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Through, 6 Madam President, one final question: If a bill 7 were proposed that said a third-party action 8 brought by an inmate shall be subject to 9 approval by a court, much like infant settle 10 ments are approved and that the victims would 11 have a lien against the proceeds of that claim 12 brought by the inmate and that the court would 13 have to notify the victims of the lien and the 14 opportunity to foreclose the lien or to file a 15 claim against that liened amount of the 16 proceeds, and if the court had to approve the 17 final settlement package, is that a bill you 18 could support, because I think it's an idea that 19 should be put before the Senate? 20 I think this bill goes part of 21 the way. I'd be prepared to draft the bill, 22 give it to you, you and I co-sponsor it, it 23 could come to this floor and we'd really do the 3778 1 job of tying inmate's claims proceeds, net 2 proceeds to inmates, to having an available 3 fund. Would you support that kind of a bill if 4 you and I worked together on it? 5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, I 6 cannot tell you certainly whether I could 7 support it or not support it at this point until 8 I saw the measure but I think the concept is 9 certainly one that we're trying to achieve here 10 and is consistent with what our objectives are 11 and I would be glad to work with you 12 constructively on this measure as well as advise 13 as to the type of language that I believe would 14 be appropriate. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I appreciate 16 the chairman of the Crime and Corrections 17 Commission's candor. I agree that going that 18 next step and locking in third-party complaints 19 may only affect a handful of cases, but it would 20 give the perception that I think this bill 21 embodies, and I think is a good one that, if you 22 are incarcerated and if, for some reason, you're 23 injured and you suddenly have funds available a 3779 1 victim would be able to file a lien, have the 2 court approval, give notice, all of the 3 provisions are in here. 4 I think it's a good bill. I 5 think it ought to go a step further. I'm going 6 to draft a bill; I'll send to to you, Senator 7 Nozzolio, and hope it would have your support so 8 we could do that bill. 9 Thank you. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the 11 last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect on the 1st day of 14 November. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 61. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill 20 is passed. 21 Senator Marcellino, that 22 concludes the calendar. 23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam 3780 1 President, may we return to reports of standing 2 committees for a Rules Committee report. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The 4 Secretary shall read. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno, 6 from the Committee on Rules, reports the 7 following bill directly to third reading: 8 Senate Print 6901-A, by Senator 9 Maltese, an act to amend the Penal Law, in 10 relation to the crime of partial birth 11 abortions. 12 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Move to 13 accept the report of the Rules Committee. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: All those 15 in favor of accepting - 16 Senator Paterson. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: We oppose the 18 acceptance of that report, Madam President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Well, if 20 we need to debate, we'll debate and take a 21 vote. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 23 Madam President. 3781 1 It's very clear that Senator 2 Maltese has brought forth a piece of legislation 3 that is on the minds of all New Yorkers. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 5 Marcellino. 6 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, just a 7 point of order. Just remind everybody that a 8 debate on a committee report is a half hour 9 debate, each side. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: We'll 11 proceed, Senator Paterson. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 13 Madam President. 14 The point is that this piece of 15 legislation that comes before the house is one 16 that has been addressed by the Cardinal; it has 17 been addressed in federal legislation vetoed by 18 the President, and it is certainly a very hotly 19 debated issue in this country. 20 For this piece of legislation to 21 come before the house as early as tomorrow 22 morning, in my opinion, would be all the more 23 reason not to bring it directly to Rules and 3782 1 bring it -- bring it to the active list today. 2 This is an issue for which I would be very clear 3 personally, I don't know how I'm going to vote 4 on it. 5 I'd like to learn more about it 6 and, therefore, that being the case, I don't 7 understand how we can do it at this particular 8 time. I'm not saying that it's out of order. 9 I'm just saying that it's imprudent and it 10 really is something that I thought we had 11 started to change right here in the Legislature 12 which is the procedure for which we address 13 issues of the day, issues that are of extreme 14 importance, issues that are of the highest value 15 to individuals. 16 The information that this piece 17 of legislation may come to the floor tomorrow 18 became available perhaps earlier this 19 afternoon. It doesn't do either the issue 20 justice. I don't think it gives the legislation 21 or the work of the sponsor any justice, and it 22 is the reason why we have the strong feeling 23 that we have on this -- in this particular 3783 1 situation. 2 All the time we report bills to 3 third reading on unanimous consent. We try to 4 cooperate, but this is a piece of legislation 5 that certainly will be the epicenter of the eyes 6 of all New York State residents as to how this 7 body dispenses with this prospective law, and 8 for us to just simply bring it to Rules this 9 afternoon in the middle of the session and then 10 bring it onto the floor tomorrow, in my opinion, 11 is actually anathema to what the credo of this 12 chamber should be, which is that we only would 13 divorce ourselves from the regular course of 14 business and conduct due to an emergency 15 situation, and I don't know what the emergency 16 is. 17 In fact, right now, I thought if 18 there was an emergency, it would be the fact 19 that we're about to approach a deadline in which 20 we haven't passed the budget of the state of New 21 York. That would be next Tuesday. This is 22 something that certainly may require public 23 scrutiny and on which the people may feel very 3784 1 strongly about, and I respect that feeling. 2 I especially respect it because 3 I'm not totally sure how I would vote on the 4 issue, and yet we are going to be here in this 5 chamber and cavalierly just take action on this 6 bill for whatever reason I don't know, and that 7 is the reason, Madam President, that I would 8 oppose the acceptance of the Rules report and 9 taking this piece of legislation up so 10 immediately and, in my opinion, so 11 irresponsibly. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator 13 Gold. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Madam 15 president. 16 Madam President, I'm sorry that 17 Senator Skelos and Senator Velella and Senator 18 Maltese are not here. Perhaps they are in the 19 other room and will hear me and will come in 20 because -- I see Senator Skelos -- I certainly 21 don't like to talk about people or with people 22 when they're not here. It's a shame Senator 23 Velella isn't here. Maybe he'll come in. 3785 1 Senator Paterson, I don't know 2 how you can say you don't know why the bill is 3 here, and et cetera. It's obvious why it's 4 here. There has been no leadership from the 5 Governor on the budget, and there's got to be 6 press activity some place. Reporters need 7 something. They must be spoon-fed. So every 8 time the Governor gets in trouble with the 9 budget, he picks on judges or he'll put out a 10 crime bill which is probably extremist of some 11 of nature and, of course, this bill has the 12 magic of all the words in it, abortion. It's a 13 magic word for the press. That's why it's here 14 today. 15 I was talking to some people a 16 couple days ago. Say what you want to about 17 late budget, say what you want to about Mario 18 Cuomo. He called people to meetings; he tried. 19 Whether he was successful or not, he tried. 20 There were meetings. This Governor holds a 21 meeting every once in a while; he figures it's 22 too embarrassing now that he hasn't had a 23 meeting or his staff. 3786 1 Well, staff is meeting. That's 2 something people ought to think about when they 3 talk about term limits. There ought to be term 4 limits for staff. They're the ones that have 5 the power around here. Apparently it's not the 6 members, according to the Governor. 7 This bill got to Rules through an 8 act of the leader of the Codes Committee. It 9 was not voted by the committee. Is that 10 technically permitted under our rules? I think 11 it is. I thought, based upon conversations with 12 Senator Maltese at the meeting and, as I say, a 13 bill is so important to Senator Maltese -- he 14 was here a minute ago; I don't know why he 15 walked out. Senator Maltese was asked 16 questions, couldn't give answers that were 17 satisfactory to a lot of us and -- there he is 18 now; Senator Maltese is in the room. 19 The response to the questions 20 that were asked on the bill by Senator Velella, 21 who gets very offended when anybody asks a 22 question about anything is, This is 23 technicalities; it's a technicality. Well, 3787 1 that's what laws are for, technicalities. One 2 law reads one way, and one law reads another 3 way. That's a technicality. That's what we 4 discuss here. 5 I'm very, very sorry that the 6 Majority in this house feels that it is above 7 being questioned on anything because when you do 8 that, certainly my colleague from the Bronx gets 9 nasty about it and everything becomes 10 obstreperous and irresponsible because you have 11 questions. 12 Well, irresponsible is putting 13 forth a piece of legislation when your sponsor 14 can't even define it, and it's a criminal 15 statute. 16 I thought it was fascinating in 17 discussing this bill at the Rules Committee that 18 Senator Maltese's first position was that he 19 really didn't need a lot of reformations even 20 though it's a criminal statute because some of 21 the words are just so obvious that everybody 22 knows what they mean. 23 I pointed out that there was a 3788 1 letter from a Dr. Hale to Senator Dole in 2 Washington on a similar piece of legislation 3 where the letter, which I don't have right now, 4 indicated that the Congressional definitions had 5 no relationship to medical definitions. 6 Well, at that point, Senator 7 Maltese said, well, he was satisfied with the 8 definitions. Well, how are you satisfied with 9 non-existent definitions? And the answer is 10 he's satisfied to get the bill out here because 11 it's important to have the bill out here because 12 talking about the bill, maybe the press won't 13 talk about the lack of leadership of the 14 Governor in the budget process. 15 This bill is a very serious piece 16 of legislation which could do good or do harm, 17 and we ought to know what we're talking about. 18 Senator Maltese described the procedure which he 19 said he would like to stop in the state of New 20 York. Very gruesome procedure, and I said to 21 Senator Maltese, Senator, maybe that should be 22 stopped and what you're describing, if it's 23 happening to eight-month-old fetuses or seven 3789 1 month-old fetuses, maybe these things should be 2 stopped but, Senator, does your bill affect Roe 3 versus Wade? Does it mean any abortion? 4 Well, he said he didn't think so, 5 but there's nothing in the bill that says that. 6 As a matter of fact, while there is language in 7 the section of law which allows abortions in 8 certain situations, the language of this bill 9 says partial birth abortions shall not 10 constitute a justifiable abortional act. 11 Now, what is a partial birth 12 abortion, which this bill would bar? According 13 to the bill, it is defined and it's the only 14 definition, an abortion in which the person 15 performing the abortion partially vaginally 16 delivers a living fetus before killing the fetus 17 and completing the delivery. 18 Now, the procedure that Senator 19 Maltese described, and these were his words, was 20 that somebody inserts something into a woman, 21 hooks the head, suctions the head and kills this 22 fetus to make it easier to deliver. Well, if 23 that's the fact, it's not barred by this piece 3790 1 of legislation, so I said to Senator Maltese, At 2 least let's deal with it to get it right. 3 Suggestion couldn't be accepted. 4 I asked Senator Maltese what is, 5 in fact, a partially vaginally delivered living 6 fetus? I said, Well, is it a toe? I mean do you 7 have to get up to the ankle? What is it? That 8 really wasn't defined either, so I guess it 9 would be anything. 10 So I said to Senator Maltese, I 11 know of people who, in the abortion debate have 12 shown photographs, and I didn't say it with 13 Senator Maltese, but it happens all the time and 14 they will show you a fetus and they'll say, 15 Lookit, you want to kill this? This is a 16 human. This is only three weeks but, again, 17 already you can see this and you can see that. 18 So I said, Well, if you can see 19 this and you can see that, supposing after three 20 weeks, a fetus was taken out and somebody said, 21 Oh, my gosh, there's a beat there, and it dies, 22 is that covered by this bill? If it is, it 23 certainly interferes with Roe v. Wade. It 3791 1 certainly interferes with a woman and her 2 doctor; but none of this is answered. 3 Now, the memo that goes with the 4 bill says that partial birth abortions are often 5 used in the second trimester, abortions from 20 6 to 24 weeks, et cetera, et cetera, but there's 7 nothing in the bill that talks about 20, 24 8 weeks. There's nothing in the bill that talks 9 about an abortion in the second week, third 10 week. It just is left open, and what I said to 11 Senator Maltese is, Senator, for the sake of 12 argument, if you had a prosecution, if this was 13 the law and you had a prosecution under this 14 bill, would you want it to be a defense where 15 somebody did this to a seven and a half-month 16 old fetus, did exactly what you said? Would you 17 want it to be a defense that the -- that the 18 killing, as you describe it, took place before 19 the foot came out and not after the foot came 20 out? Would you want it to be the defense that it 21 wasn't defined properly? Would you want the 22 person that did this to get away with it? I 23 wouldn't, and the answer is the bill's going to 3792 1 come out. The definitions are fine. I'm 2 satisfied with the definitions. 3 I said in committee, and I'll 4 repeat it on the floor because now we have a 5 record, there was a very beloved colleague of 6 ours named James Donovan, whom I didn't agree 7 with on the overall issue of abortion at that 8 time, but I don't think there was a member of 9 this chamber that didn't love that man and 10 respect him for his dedication to an issue, and 11 there were times when he voted differently than 12 a party line because he would see it as a back 13 doorway to perhaps convince people how deeply 14 this issue was important, so, for example, he 15 was terrific when it came to providing money for 16 welfare parents to support their children 17 because I once said, Yes, it's all right to have 18 them born and then you want to kill them, and he 19 said, No, Senator, let the children be born and 20 we'll support them. I think he was a great 21 man. 22 I have always believed that 23 Senator Serphin Maltese, who I am happy being on 3793 1 different political ends of the spectrum with, 2 is as sincere on this issue as anybody, and I 3 have never questioned his sincerity on the 4 issue. As a matter of fact, during the Rules 5 Committee debate, I didn't even say he was wrong 6 on the issue. It never came up, so in terms of 7 the rather glib comments of my colleague from 8 the Bronx about politicizing the issue, we 9 weren't even getting into the issue. We were 10 pointing out that the bill is no good the way 11 it's written. 12 There are people in this chamber 13 on both sides of this aisle that do not like the 14 procedure that is trying to be barred. It's not 15 a Democratic/Republican issue, certainly is 16 not. As a matter of fact, I even wonder whether 17 it's a Conservative/Liberal issue. It's an 18 issue of human beings and the way they see a 19 particular situation, how they see relationships 20 between women and their doctors. So it 21 shouldn't be politicized. 22 But one thing is very, very 23 clear. My distinguished colleague, Senator 3794 1 Dollinger, I think was too generous last week. 2 I do believe that there are times in committees 3 when some of the Republican chairs do allow par 4 ticipation but, Senator Dollinger, you were too 5 generous. You were, and I say it again, you 6 were too generous. 7 When it comes to the politics of 8 this place, there is no yielding to intellect on 9 the part of the other side. This bill had to 10 come out because the Governor needs cover. It's 11 easy, he needs cover, and this makes better 12 press than some other things as far as the 13 Governor is concerned. 14 So assuming that the Republicans 15 vote to sustain the Rules report, we will have a 16 debate tomorrow and Senator Maltese, unable to 17 control the fact that he's honest, will give 18 honest answers and he will tell you that there 19 are no legal definitions for some of the phrases 20 in this bill and you will hear in the course of 21 that debate that this is a flawed bill. And 22 will we vote on it? You can take that to the 23 bank, we'll vote on it. 3795 1 Why? Well, look, we're getting 2 the process started. We can always talk to the 3 Assembly. We can always amend, we can do this, 4 we can do that, we should have, we could have, 5 we could have, we would have, but there will be 6 a vote because that will be a story. A bill is 7 passed in the New York State Senate similar to 8 the Congressional bill but with a little bit of 9 language that the President said he would sign 10 it for, and the next thing we know that's the 11 story and the Governor gets to breathe a little 12 easier for a few more days on the budget. 13 I just think it's unfortunate. 14 Senator Maltese, in discussing that huge word 15 "abortion" like everything else, you have your 16 extremes and there were extremes which I could 17 never bring you to, and there are extremes you 18 could never bring me to, and then as you pass 19 along from those extremes you get into 20 situations where people of good will can perhaps 21 agree that this may or may not be going too far 22 and that may or may not be going too far. 23 This may be one of those areas, 3796 1 Senator, where everybody or people from 2 different parts of the spectrum could draw a 3 bill that perhaps stops a practice that we think 4 goes too far and yet leaves women their dignity, 5 the right to their bodies and does not affect 6 socially the effects of Roe v. Wade. 7 I would have hoped, Senator, that 8 we would have done that in this case. The bill 9 was in the Codes Committee. In the hierarchy of 10 the Senate, the Codes Committee is considered 11 pretty significant in terms of what we, over a 12 drink, talk about, our best committees, our 13 biggest committees, and everybody agrees -- not 14 to quote me on this -- the chairman of Codes is 15 one of our best chairmen, certainly one of the 16 fairest. There is no better place for this bill 17 than to be in the Codes Committee, discussed as 18 other bills are discussed in the Codes Committee 19 and perhaps put into shape so that whether we 20 agree with it or don't agree with it, we can be 21 proud that that's at least the work product of 22 the New York State Senate. 23 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Mr. 3797 1 President. 2 SENATOR GOLD: No, I won't yield 3 right now. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 5 Hoffmann, why do you rise? 6 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Wondered if 7 Senator Gold would yield to a brief question. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 9 Gold, would you yield to Senator Hoffmann. 10 SENATOR GOLD: In a moment. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 12 Gold has declined to yield. 13 SENATOR GOLD: The last point I 14 made is the language, and I made this point in 15 Rules. At appropriate times in New York State 16 we have been a leader and at appropriate times 17 we have been a follower. We have been a leader 18 in the crime victims field. I believe we were 19 one of the first, if not the first state, to 20 have a crime victims compensation law. I had 21 the honor of drafting that law. 22 We also were a follower when two 23 years ago we passed a bill that we were asked 3798 1 about by people in the state of California where 2 we mandated the teaching of a Holocaust in our 3 schools. But whether we are leaders -- whether 4 we are leaders or followers, the fact is that we 5 in New York draw our laws differently than other 6 places. 7 Congress, to its lack of credit 8 as far as I'm concerned, draws laws which you 9 need 50 lawyers to interpret each paragraph. I 10 don't know how they ever do that stuff. In 11 California, they use different kinds of language 12 and put it together in different kinds of ways. 13 I don't care whether this bill 14 was taken word for word from Congress or not. 15 In my opinion, the way we draw laws in New York 16 we define terms particularly in criminal 17 statutes and we like to be in a situation where 18 our laws are a little tighter, a little more 19 explicit, specifically in the area of criminal 20 law. 21 That is what the debate in Rules 22 was all about. Nobody was questioning the 23 motives, certainly not of Senator Maltese or 3799 1 Senator Farley or some of the other sponsors of 2 the bill. The motivation of the individuals who 3 want to see this as a law was not questioned nor 4 did we get into the merits. 5 We did get into the issue as to 6 whether or not this work product should be 7 rushed by the aborting of our normal committee 8 system to be brought to the floor. 9 I think it's a mistake. I think 10 we do not do the issue justice, and I think that 11 the issue deserves a just and fair hearing and, 12 in my opinion, the way you get a fair hearing is 13 to revoke or not revoke but to reject this 14 committee report and urge the Rules Committee to 15 send it back to Codes where it can be properly 16 worked on. 17 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 19 Connor, on the motion to accept the Rules 20 Committee report. 21 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 22 President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Excuse 3800 1 me, Senator Hoffmann. Why do you rise? 2 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I had 3 requested Senator Gold to yield for a question. 4 I was under the impression that he would yield 5 for a question in a moment and I had a brief 6 question for clarification. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 8 Gold, ready to yield at this time? 9 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, I would. 10 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Senator Gold, I 11 wanted to make sure I understood you correctly 12 since I have not seen this measure, since I did 13 not sit on the committee which has apparently 14 just attempted to report it to the floor. 15 Did I understand you to say 16 correctly -- did I understand you correctly to 17 say that this bill as reported by someone and 18 perhaps you can clarify that for me as well, is 19 purported to express specific differences 20 between the President of the United States and 21 the Congress of the United States? 22 SENATOR GOLD: What I said, 23 Senator -- I'm glad you asked -- I am told it 3801 1 was stated at the committee meeting that the 2 bill that the Congress sent to the President was 3 vetoed by the President because it didn't take 4 into consideration the health of the mother and 5 it was stated at the committee meeting that 6 starting with line 20, that there is language in 7 here which they believe would satisfy the 8 President if it was submitted to him. That's 9 what my reference meant. 10 SENATOR HOFFMANN: And if Senator 11 Gold would continue to yield for a further point 12 of clarification, Mr. President. I assume 13 Senator Gold will continue to yield. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 15 Gold, will you yield? 16 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 18 Gold yields to Senator Hoffmann. 19 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you. 20 Could you tell me who it was that stated to 21 whatever members of this committee that they 22 believe they understand the President of the 23 United State's objections and have addressed 3802 1 them in this bill before the New York State 2 Senate? 3 SENATOR GOLD: I really don't 4 remember who made the comment. 5 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. Thank you, Senator Gold. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 8 Connor, on the motion to accept the Rules 9 Committee report. 10 Senator Connor. 11 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 12 President. Thank you, Mr. President. 13 Once again we stand here and it 14 seems we hear an echo and the echo transcends 15 this bill. It's about process and it's about 16 process as it upholds the integrity of this 17 institution. No matter what you feel about this 18 bill or this issue or related issues, it's 19 certainly been an area of contention, an area 20 that concerns the public, and an area where 21 there are many people who would like to be heard 22 and an area where much information will be 23 helpful. 3803 1 Senator Maltese, I spoke to 2 Senator Bruno 45 minutes ago. I asked him why 3 this was being done in such a hurry. His 4 reaction was we have the votes, we're just going 5 to do it tomorrow before all these pro-choice 6 people come around. 7 That's a wonderful way to run the 8 Senate. The fact of the matter is, Senator 9 Maltese, I don't think you really have an 10 accurate idea of what members, particularly on 11 this side of the aisle, think about this bill 12 and think about the situation it purports to 13 address. 14 I've read the same popular 15 accounts, non-medical, non-scientific, press 16 accounts, about the so-called "partial birth 17 abortion". My initial reaction to that is I'd 18 vote for a bill to ban that procedure that was 19 consistent with Roe v. Wade. When I first read 20 this bill this afternoon, when I heard and was 21 shocked some three hours ago that there might be 22 an attempt to move it in less than 12 or 14 23 hours, I read the bill. I had different staff 3804 1 talking at me. I said, Whoa! I don't know that 2 this is a pro-choice or pro-life issue, and I 3 walked out on the floor. Session was just 4 beginning and I cadged a number of members, some 5 you know, naturally some members weren't here - 6 I didn't see everybody -- to get a feel. 7 I found at least a half a dozen 8 other so-called pro-choice members and, as I 9 say, I didn't talk to more than six or seven 10 people who had questions about this, who were 11 inclined to support a ban on what has been 12 presented in the popular medium as a so-called 13 "partial birth abortion"; and, as you 14 understand and I hope it's clear, the issue of 15 choice, abortion, so on, has never been a 16 partisan issue. 17 There are people on your side of 18 the aisle who disagree with you, Senator 19 Maltese. There are people on this side of the 20 aisle who disagree with each other and with you 21 and it really saddens me to see this partisan 22 rush as if somehow or other, points will be 23 scored, headlines will be made. It will somehow 3805 1 have some play on the presidential election 2 because I tell you, and I quote to you what 3 Senator Bruno told me an hour ago: Well, gee, 4 in Congress some of the most liberal Democrats 5 like Kennedy and Gephardt voted for this. 6 This is not a partisan issue, and 7 the questions that were being asked in committee 8 were not necessarily from the standpoint of 9 we're against this bill or we're for this bill. 10 There are questions, and I left this floor and 11 almost had my mind made up about this bill and 12 then I talked to some people who brought out 13 some other facts. I said, Gee, I didn't know 14 that, I didn't know that. 15 We say, Well, how can we talk to 16 members? How can we get these facts out? And I 17 said, you know, I wish Senator Maltese really 18 cared about this because I, you know, if I had 19 to lean, Senator, I'm still leaning toward a 20 bill like this, like this that addresses other 21 concerns. You know, why don't you have a 22 hearing Friday? Why don't we hear from everybody 23 on this? I'd like to hear some medical testimony 3806 1 because of what I talked to a couple people with 2 better medical knowledge than me and they say 3 they can't find these terms. These aren't terms 4 of medical usage. 5 Now, Senator Maltese, you can say 6 Aah, we all know what it means. I mean does it 7 mean what I read in some newspaper account a few 8 weeks ago when I decided, Gee, that shouldn't be 9 done, or does it mean other things? I'd like to 10 hear them, but I can't, I'm not going to have 11 any expert medical advice conveyed to me in the 12 next -- Senator Bruno, I think, said he wants to 13 start at ten tomorrow. Let's hurry up -- in the 14 next so many hours, and I think, frankly, 15 Senator Maltese and the only thing Senator Bruno 16 said, Oh, this is the bill, Senator Maltese 17 changed it. This is the bill that would meet 18 the President's definition, protect the mother's 19 health. 20 So I read through it and I see it 21 protects the mother's life but it doesn't 22 mention health, and I have said and I wrote, you 23 know, it doesn't mention "health", so yeah, 3807 1 yeah, there's been some changes. It meets the 2 President. The President would have signed this 3 bill. Well, I don't see the word "health". 4 So what's the rush? If you're 5 serious about addressing that real situation we 6 read about, if it be real, if it really happens 7 and you know what, if it doesn't happen, it 8 shouldn't happen, and I'll support you in making 9 sure it doesn't happen, but as long as you meet 10 the requirements of Roe v. Wade about the first 11 24 weeks of pregnancy. You know, let's pass a 12 constitutional law that bans the problem you 13 address. Let's not ban problems that don't 14 exist or things we can't do. 15 Roe v. Wade ties our hands in 16 those first 24 weeks. It's not clear that your 17 bill, you say it in your bill, this bans a 18 certain procedure in the last trimester. I'll 19 support that. In fact, under existing New York 20 law, I believe abortion is not legal except 21 under severe limitations in that last 22 trimester. I support that present law. Don't 23 see me filing any bills saying, let's make it 3808 1 legal up until the eighth or ninth month. You 2 don't see any members over here doing that. 3 If this is other than a political 4 campaign slogan for the Dole campaign, let's 5 have the Rules Committee consider it tomorrow 6 morning. Let's discuss the kind of amendments 7 I'm talking about, put it out and debate it next 8 Monday or Tuesday in the ordinary course. Let's 9 solicit some opinion. Senator Maltese, you 10 address for me that Roe v. Wade problem. You 11 limit this bill to the last trimester. You 12 protect the mother's physical health as well as 13 her life. You conform this to what the experts 14 say is the real situation, and you got me. You 15 got a lot of other people, I think. But we want 16 time to hear all the facts. We want to know 17 this is a legitimate legislative effort to 18 address either a real or a perceived problem 19 that meets constitutional requirements, that 20 protects the relationship between a woman and 21 her physician in those first six months of preg 22 nancy, that protects a woman's health and life 23 in the third trimester, and then I think people 3809 1 could perhaps agree on this. 2 I don't think, incidentally, and 3 I haven't had time to explore it but from what 4 I've heard in the last hour that there really 5 are such situations as have been described in 6 the popular literature if you give us some time 7 to think about it. 8 Senator, this is the Senate of 9 the state of New York. This once -- once 10 sincere people on both sides of the aisle have, 11 all of us, stood and talked about this as they 12 used to use the phrase and I heard Jerry Bloom 13 use it and I heard John Caemmerer use it and 14 they would talk about this and Bill Conklin, and 15 talk about this as the greatest deliberative 16 body in the world. 17 What a joke that's become when we 18 don't deliberate. What a joke that is when we 19 don't reason together. What a joke that is when 20 we don't have time to think or get information 21 or to let the public have any input on a very 22 important issue. What a joke it is when we cut 23 each other off for partisan reasons from 3810 1 reasoning together and perhaps producing a bill, 2 if there be a problem because I don't think 3 people -- I've talked to some of whom are pro 4 choice have any different visceral reaction than 5 some of the members over there who described 6 themselves as otherwise. 7 But let's have a bill, let's have 8 a real bill. This rush for a headline so people 9 don't focus on the budget that the Governor 10 ought to be leading us into. This rush, gee, 11 anything for a headline, a couple days ago the 12 Governor was on the front page going to lead the 13 pro-choice charge, whatever that means, your 14 Governor, Senator Maltese, your Governor was 15 going to do that. 16 I wish he were leading the "get a 17 budget" charge this week, but that's partisan 18 bickering. This is if you put out a political 19 campaign slogan as a bill on 14 or 15, 16 hours 20 notice, then you're going to get a political 21 campaign slogan response. You're going to get a 22 vote that way. If you want real legislation, 23 Senator Maltese, sit down and talk to people. 3811 1 Slow up, not for a month, slow up for a few 2 days. Let this once again be, if not the 3 greatest deliberative body in the country, at 4 least let it be a fairly moderate deliberative 5 body, and I would urge, and without getting into 6 this bill, I would ask every member certainly on 7 this side but every member respect the 8 institution and on the procedural vote, please 9 vote not to accept this report. 10 Let the Codes Committee hold 11 hearings, let the people be heard. Let members 12 have time to reason together. 13 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Mr. 14 President. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 16 President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: It's 18 the ruling of the Chair that, pursuant to Rule 19 Number VII, Section 2, the time on the motion to 20 debate has elapsed. We will take up the vote on 21 the motion to accept the Rules report. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Excuse me. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'd like to 3812 1 be - 2 (Senator Hoffmann, Senator 3 Leichter, Senator Skelos talking over; 4 unintelligible.) 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 6 President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 8 Hoffmann, why do you rise? 9 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I'd like to 10 appeal the ruling of the Chair. I'd like to 11 have the clock checked. I'd like to have the 12 sorcerer impeached. I don't know, I think there 13 are a whole lot of things we should do in this 14 medieval institution. I think there are a 15 number of appropriate steps to bringing 16 democracy back. I'll think of a few more if you 17 give me a couple of minutes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Thank 19 you, Senator Hoffmann. 20 SENATOR HOFFMANN: You're most 21 welcome, Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 23 ruling of the Chair is that the debate pursuant 3813 1 to the ruling at that time has elapsed; 2 therefore, we will take a vote on the motion. 3 All those in favor of accepting the Rules 4 Committee report? 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Appeal on the 6 ruling of the Chair. I heard Senator Hoffmann 7 say that she was appealing your ruling, Mr. 8 President. 9 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I'm appealing 10 the ruling of the Chair, Mr. President, to close 11 debate on this issue. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 13 question is on the - 14 SENATOR HOFFMANN: There is more 15 debate by members of the house. I respectfully 16 request the appeal overruling the Chair relative 17 to the time constraints. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 19 question is on the appeal of the ruling of the 20 Chair. All those in favor - 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Slow roll 22 call. 23 SENATOR ESPADA: Slow roll call. 3814 1 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: There's 2 been a request for a slow roll. Do I see five 3 members standing? 4 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I believe we 5 will have a slow roll call. Then perhaps the 6 Majority would like to reconsider and - 7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Are 8 there five members standing? 9 SENATOR SMITH: Oh! 10 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Call 11 the roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Slow 14 roll was requested. There are five members 15 standing. Secretary will call the roll. 16 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Mr. 17 President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 19 Secretary will call the slow roll call. A vote 20 of "Aye" is to sustain the ruling of the Chair. 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Mr. President, 22 just so I understand what the issue is that 23 we're voting on. Is it the Minority's 3815 1 contention that 29 minutes have passed in debate 2 or that it was less than 30 minutes that passed 3 in debate? 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Point of 5 order, Mr. President. 6 SENATOR VELELLA: I don't know 7 what we're voting on. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm not sure 9 I do either but - 10 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I would - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 12 Hoffmann, you're not recognized. 13 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Am I 14 recognized, Mr. President? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: You are 16 not, Senator Hoffmann. 17 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Since I was 18 asking a question. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: And you 20 were not recognized, Senator. Thank you. 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Address the 22 chair. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: 3816 1 Senator, if we may, we are calling a slow roll 2 on the motion to appeal the decision of the 3 Chair, made by Senator Hoffmann. A vote "Aye" 4 is in sustaining the Chair. A "Nay" vote 5 rejects the Chair. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Point of 7 order, Mr. Chairman. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Let's 9 try it again. 10 O.K. We're going to call the roll 11 on a motion to appeal the ruling of the Chair 12 which is to close debate, correct. 13 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr. 14 President, for recognizing my motion. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: All 16 right. Call the roll. 17 Senator Alesi. 18 SENATOR ALESI: Point of in 19 formation. Would you please reiterate your 20 position on the voting procedure, please? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Yes. 22 This is on a motion to appeal. A "Yes" vote 23 sustains the appeal and overrules the Chair. 3817 1 (Pause) A "Yes" vote sustains the ruling of the 2 Chair. A "No" vote overrules the Chair. Call 3 the roll. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 5 (There was no response. ) 6 Senator Alesi. 7 SENATOR ALESI: Yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 9 Alesi. 10 SENATOR ALESI: Yes. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush. 12 (There was no response. ) 13 Senator Bruno. 14 (Affirmative indication. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Aye. 16 Senator Connor. 17 SENATOR CONNOR: No. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook. 19 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator 21 DeFrancisco. 22 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo. 3818 1 SENATOR DiCARLO: Aye. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator 3 Dollinger. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explain my 5 vote, Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 7 Dollinger, to explain his vote. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 9 President, it seems to me that when several 10 members of this house have not had an 11 opportunity to be heard within the time limit 12 every other time that I think we've had this 13 debate, there's been an agreement by the 14 Majority members, on Senator Padavan's 15 immigration bills, certainly on the death 16 penalty bills, when there has been heated debate 17 about an issue that members have strong opinions 18 on. We have relented and allowed additional 19 time for debate. 20 Today, at least Senator Hoffmann, 21 and I don't know her opinion on this bill but 22 it's certainly one that should be heard, and the 23 opinion on the issue of accepting the Rules 3819 1 Committee report; Senator Leichter stood and 2 asked to be heard on whether or not we should 3 accept the Rules Committee report. I would like 4 to be heard on the issue of whether we accept 5 the Rules Committee report, and I think it's 6 unconscionable that this house won't allow that 7 time to debate. You're putting a muzzle on the 8 debate. 9 It's not fair. It's not right 10 and, frankly, with all due respect to my leader, 11 Senator Connor, he is one of those who has 12 preached at me as, frankly, has Senator Marino, 13 Senator Bruno, Senator Skelos -- in fact, I 14 think every member of this house who sits in the 15 Republican house, has preached to me on the 16 importance of respecting the rules of this 17 house. 18 Well, we all know what this is. 19 This isn't a cheap publicity stunt to get this 20 bill before us. It's just a very expensive 21 publicity stunt. We're not doing it right. 22 We're not even listening to the debate about 23 accepting the Rules Committee report and it 3820 1 seems to me it's a travesty. 2 I tell everyone in this chamber 3 don't lecture me about putting politics over 4 rules next time. 5 Vote no. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 7 Dollinger, how do you vote? No? Continue the 8 roll. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 10 SENATOR ESPADA: No. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley. 12 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold. 14 SENATOR GOLD: No. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator 16 Gonzalez. 17 (There was no response. ) 18 Senator Goodman. 19 (There was no response. ) 20 Senator Hannon. 21 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock. 23 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes. 3821 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann. 2 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Explain my 3 vote. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 5 Hoffmann, to explain her vote. 6 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Yes, Mr. 7 President. 8 It was one week ago today that I 9 stood on this floor and asked my colleagues to 10 release from committee a number of bills that I 11 felt were urgent to reform our legislative 12 process, and I listened while a number of my 13 colleagues across the aisle stated that they 14 would vote no on a procedural matter. They were 15 voting against allowing bills to come to the 16 floor for a vote. 17 I find myself in a somewhat 18 ironic situation today casting a similar vote on 19 a procedural matter. I do not want to allow a 20 measure to come to the floor of this august 21 chamber in such a reprehensible way. Of course, 22 I will vote no against allowing a bill as 23 significant as one which deals theoretically 3822 1 with the health of every young woman of child 2 bearing age of this state to be rushed to this 3 floor, to be rushed to this chamber with a 4 threat that we'll be forced to vote on it in 5 less than 24 hours time without even the 6 courtesy of an advance notice, much less a 7 public hearing and outside opinions. 8 The outrage -- the outrage in 9 this chamber today that women's health and 10 reproductive activities would be trivialized as 11 some kind of a subterfuge, some kind of a royal 12 display of fantasy to prevent people of this 13 state from realizing that we can't get our heads 14 together to come up with a budget, that we would 15 present ourselves to the public or the crafters 16 of this bill and the people who have sent it 17 through the Codes Committee claiming that they 18 have a greater body of knowledge than the United 19 States Congress and the President of the United 20 States who have not yet been able to come to 21 terms with this issue despite the fact that they 22 have debated it openly and publicly and held 23 hearings on it. 3823 1 This is a subject of enormous and 2 intense discussion in Washington. It has not 3 been the subject of any open meetings or public 4 hearings, committee meetings in this chamber to 5 my knowledge. We're supposed to be working on 6 the New York State budget in this chamber, not 7 bringing issues before this body based on 8 headline journalism, not based upon newspaper 9 stories. 10 I listened to my colleagues 11 across the aisle saying that they didn't want to 12 pander to newspapers last week. That's what you 13 accused me of. I'm so sorry that you didn't 14 take your own words to heart. What could be 15 more base than throwing out a bill of this 16 magnitude without at least giving us the 17 courtesy of knowing in advance that the health 18 and safety and reproductive activities of every 19 woman in this state can be played second fiddle 20 to virtually anything and thrown up as some kind 21 of a camouflage when we can't put a budget 22 together? 23 This is a disgrace. Of course, I 3824 1 will vote no in closing debate. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: 3 Continue the roll. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Holland. 5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson. 7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger. 9 SENATOR KRUGER: No. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 11 (There was no response. ) 12 Senator Lachman. 13 SENATOR LACHMAN: No. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack. 15 SENATOR LACK: Aye. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin. 17 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle. 19 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell. 21 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator 23 Leichter. 3825 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 2 to explain my vote. 3 I'm sorry we're shutting off 4 debate in this fashion. Part of the steam 5 roller tactics of the Majority. I wanted to ask 6 Senator Maltese why a bill that was introduced 7 April 9th was amended, I assume a week ago or a 8 few days ago, and whose effective date is the - 9 in November, has to be rushed to the floor and I 10 can only surmise what his answer would be and I 11 know you, Senator Maltese, to be a very honest 12 person is, Well, it's politics time. This is a 13 good time for us to move this sort of a bill; 14 and I would have wanted to ask Senator Volker, 15 chairman of the Codes Committee that I've served 16 on for many years and for whom I have great 17 fondness, great admiration. "Dale," I would 18 say, "how come this bill wasn't considered by 19 the Codes Committee? You considered death 20 penalty, you've considered every bill. We've 21 discussed it, all of these bills, in very fair 22 fashion," and I guess his answer would be, 23 "Franz, it was out of my hands, this bill was 3826 1 pulled out of the committee," and it's clear 2 that's what has happened, and to politicize this 3 issue in such a fashion, I think does a disgrace 4 to the position that you hold, Senator Maltese, 5 that I disagree with strongly, but I have the 6 greatest respect because I know it comes from a 7 very firm and strong moral grounds of beliefs. 8 But not to -- and we've had 9 debates before and we've had some wonderful 10 members that are no longer with us, Senator 11 Donovan and Senator Caemmerer, and we've had 12 heated debates on this but we debated. We 13 deliberated. This is so momentous; this is so 14 important, and to rush it out to the floor in 15 this fashion when the bill doesn't become 16 effective until next November. Why? Why? 17 There is only one reason. Politics. 18 I vote no. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: 20 Continue the roll. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy. 22 SENATOR LEVY: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous. 3827 1 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese. 3 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator 5 Marcellino. 6 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 8 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator 10 Markowitz. 11 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz. 13 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Aye. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez. 15 SENATOR MENDEZ: No. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Montgomery. 18 (There was no response. ) 19 Senator Nanula. 20 (There was no response. ) 21 Senator Nozzolio. 22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato. 3828 1 SENATOR ONORATO: No. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator 3 Oppenheimer. 4 (There was no response. ) 5 Senator Padavan. 6 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Paterson. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: No. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present. 11 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 13 SENATOR RATH: Aye. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 15 SENATOR SALAND: Aye. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Santiago. 18 SENATOR SANTIAGO: No. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator 20 Seabrook. 21 SENATOR SEABROOK: No. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears. 23 SENATOR SEARS: Yes. 3829 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward. 2 (There was no response. ) 3 Senator Skelos. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 7 Smith to explain her vote. 8 SENATOR SMITH: Mr. President, 9 I'm just amazed that my colleagues across the 10 aisle who profess to have family values would 11 hold the women of the state of New York in such 12 contempt that they would rush to bring a bill to 13 the floor which affects the lives of each and 14 every woman of child-bearing age. 15 I just can't imagine that they 16 would care so little about the majority of the 17 people of the state of New York. Therefore, Mr. 18 President, I definitely vote in the negative 19 because I hold the women of the state of New 20 York in high esteem, and I feel that we have to 21 take the time to be able to study this bill and 22 to have some hearings before each of us are 23 required to make a vote of this importance. 3830 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 2 SENATOR SPANO: Aye. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator 4 Stachowski. 5 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: No. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 Stafford. 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator 10 Stavisky. 11 SENATOR STAVISKY: Explain my 12 vote, Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 14 Stavisky, to explain his vote. 15 SENATOR STAVISKY: The desire to 16 be fair and open with the public is evidenced by 17 the fact that even the press which ordinarily 18 covers proceedings of the Legislature and the 19 executive branches of government is not in this 20 chamber because of the awareness that this is an 21 unfair closed shop where there is no opportunity 22 for rational discussion among people who may 23 disagree but who have an obligation to listen to 3831 1 each other. 2 See the consequences of what 3 we're doing today. Look at the gallery. You'll 4 see the public, notified of what we're about to 5 do here in this chamber. There is not a single 6 person in the gallery on that side of the 7 aisle. Is that an accident, or is it a 8 deliberate desire to obfuscate the tragedy that 9 is occurring here in this chamber? And it is a 10 tragedy that transcends the issue. It is a 11 tragedy that reflects discredit on this house. 12 Not a single person is in the gallery above that 13 side of the aisle, and I guess I would need a 14 periscope to be able to see whether there's 15 anyone sitting in the gallery on this side. 16 But that's an indication of how 17 anxious the sponsors of this flawed proposal 18 were to have the public informed and involved. 19 What will you say to the people throughout the 20 state of New York when they ask, Well, why 21 didn't you tell us? Why didn't you give us a 22 chance to be heard? Why didn't you give us a 23 chance to talk to you before you made this 3832 1 decision? 2 Again, look to the gallery. Look 3 to the empty benches and reflect as to why you 4 should be voting no on this motion regarding the 5 ruling of the Chair and why you should reflect 6 more carefully on what is being done in a manner 7 that is the antithesis of democracy. 8 I vote no. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo. 10 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully. 12 SENATOR TULLY: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella. 14 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker. 16 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon. 18 (Negative indication. ) 19 THE SECRETARY: No. 20 Senator Wright. 21 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Call 23 the absentees. 3833 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 2 SENATOR ABATE: No. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush. 4 (There was no response. ) 5 Senator Gonzalez. 6 (There was no response. ) 7 Senator Goodman. 8 (There was no response. ) 9 Senator Kuhl. 10 (There was no response. ) 11 Senator Montgomery. 12 (There was no response. ) 13 Senator Nanula. 14 (There was no response. ) 15 Senator Oppenheimer. 16 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Mr. 17 President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 19 Oppenheimer, to explain her vote. 20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: This is 21 really very sad and tragic for the women of New 22 York State that we are held in such low esteem 23 that the time for input cannot be found. It's 3834 1 also, I think, tragic for New York State 2 Senate. I think there is a process which we all 3 wish we could have followed here, a time for 4 serious debate, a time for thoughtful 5 discussion. 6 I think it discredits us, and I 7 think it says very little to the women of this 8 state, and I really don't know why we can't have 9 that thoughtful debate. It's a very complex 10 issue, and it's trying to be handled in a knee 11 jerk reaction manner, and it just does a great 12 deal of disservice to women, to doctors in this 13 state, to nurses. There's a lot of opinion on 14 this, important opinion, and I think we should 15 be hearing it. 16 I vote no. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward. 18 (There was no response. ) 19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: 20 Results. 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34, nays 22 20. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 3835 1 ruling of the Chair is sustained. 2 On the motion to accept the Rules 3 Committee report. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 5 President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 7 Paterson, why do you rise? 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 9 a point of order, 34 ayes and 20 nays? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: That's 11 correct. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 13 if I remember correctly Senator Hoffmann's 14 motion was not to review the ruling of the 15 Chair. Senator Hoffmann's motion was to appeal 16 the ruling of the Chair. In other words, her 17 motion was to change the ruling of the Chair and 18 so regardless of anyone's intent in here, just 19 so that we do preserve some kind of sanity, we 20 had 17 motions to discharge here last week, the 21 motion in favor was recorded by a vote of yes. 22 I'm just contending that just for 23 the record, that this vote is wrong, that in 3836 1 advertently the appeal of the Chair -- of the 2 Chair won because those were the yes votes, 34 3 in favor of the motion. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 5 Paterson, I declared that a vote of "Yes" was to 6 sustain the decision of the Chair. There were 7 34 affirmative votes to sustain the decision of 8 the Chair. Therefore, I have ruled that the 9 decision is sustained and we are now on the 10 motion. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Point of 12 order, Mr. President. I understand what your 13 direction was to the body, and I am certainly 14 not trying to change the intention of any member 15 here, but just so that we have clarity in this 16 chamber since we don't seem to have clarity on 17 very much right now, I'm just informing you that 18 this -- that you ruled on a motion, in my 19 opinion, incorrectly because the motion was made 20 and the affirmative vote for the motion would 21 have been recorded as "yes" and if someone can 22 explain to me how that's otherwise, how it could 23 have been otherwise, I certainly would 3837 1 appreciate knowing that because we're going to 2 have other motions in this chamber. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 4 motion before the house is to accept the Rules 5 Committee report. All those in favor of 6 accepting the Rules Committee report. 7 SENATOR SMITH: Slow roll call. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Call 9 the roll. There's a request for a slow roll. 10 There are five members standing. On the motion 11 to accept the Rules Committee report, there will 12 be a slow roll; clerk will call the roll. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 14 SENATOR ABATE: No. 15 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Wait a 16 minute! 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Alesi. 18 SENATOR ALESI: Yes. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush. 20 (There was no response. ) 21 Senator Bruno. 22 (Affirmative indication. ) 23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes. 3838 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor. 2 (Negative indication. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook. 4 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 6 Cook, to explain your vote. 7 SENATOR COOK: Had I been a 8 member of the Rules Committee, I might have made 9 a decision based on the merits of this bill 10 because that's the appropriate function of the 11 Rules Committee or of any other committee 12 considering the bill. However, the question 13 before us is whether the Rules Committee has the 14 power to report a bill to the floor, and if we 15 deny that precedent then we deny -- then we set 16 a precedent for all kinds of other issues that 17 may come before the Legislature over a period of 18 the rest of the year and into the future. 19 So I think it ought to be clear 20 that this is a procedural motion once again on 21 the question of whether the bill ought to be 22 referred to the floor, and I think that clearly 23 the rules of the house say that the Rules 3839 1 Committee had that power. They've acted within 2 their powers and, therefore, I'm voting yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 4 Cook in the affirmative. 5 Continue the roll. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 DeFrancisco. 8 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Mr. 9 President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 11 DeFrancisco to explain his vote. 12 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: We've heard 13 a lot of dialogue today, some of it louder than 14 I've heard in the four years that I've been 15 here, but the fact of the matter is I'd just 16 like to state a couple of facts that I think are 17 relevant in this vote. 18 Number one, the vote has nothing 19 to do with disrespect for women and, if the 20 decision is political, as some on the other side 21 of the aisle have suggested, I would suggest 22 that maybe some of their comments might have 23 been political as well. 3840 1 But most importantly, this bill 2 has been in print in the "A" version since April 3 9, 1996, presumably it's been in print before 4 the "A" version came out. So if anyone wanted 5 to determine what bill may come forward in the 6 future, they certainly had ample opportunity to 7 do this. 8 In addition, this is not a bill 9 or an idea that is a new idea. There's been 10 debate in Congress. The issue is not a new 11 issue, so to suggest that someone could not 12 possibly determine their decision by tomorrow 13 after full debate, especially when the bill is a 14 matter of 29 lines, I think is a little bit 15 overstating the case. So I vote yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 17 DeFrancisco in the affirmative. 18 Continue the roll call. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo. 20 SENATOR DiCARLO: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator 22 Dollinger. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explain my 3841 1 vote. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 3 Dollinger, to explain his vote. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 5 President, I just disagree slightly with Senator 6 Cook. Senator Cook said that the only issue 7 that was present here was whether the Rules 8 Committee has the power to report to the floor. 9 Well, it's obvious that they don't have the 10 power because this body has the ability to 11 accept it or reject it. That's what this vote 12 is all about. They may have the power to 13 recommend to this body that it accept it, but 14 this body has the power to decide under the 15 circumstances of any particular issue, any Rules 16 Committee report, to decide whether it's in the 17 best exercise of discretion of this body to 18 accept that report. 19 I argued before that it wasn't in 20 the best interests of this body or in the best 21 interests of the legislation that we do this. 22 This is an issue that needs hearings. This is 23 an issue that needs time and, frankly, with all 3842 1 due respect to Senator DeFrancisco, you talk 2 about the politics of this. 3 I'll tell you what the politics 4 of this is. Several of my colleagues suggested 5 it's designed to protect George Pataki. I'm not 6 going to comment on that. I know why it's being 7 done. Where's the urgency of it being done? 8 None of the people who support this bill have to 9 put up with the telephone calls. None of the 10 people who support this bill want to put up with 11 the FAX machines. None of the people who 12 support this want people to come in and explain 13 why they chose to have this enormously - 14 enormously difficult, painful, anguishing 15 procedure. That's why you don't want to do it. 16 You don't want to listen to the people you 17 represent and the people of this state tell you 18 why it's a good idea. It's just like it's 4:00 19 o'clock in the morning on the 15th of June or 20 the 4th of July. You're doing it under the 21 cover of night. You're doing it under the 22 pressure of some unknown time pressure simply to 23 avoid something you find distasteful, people 3843 1 calling you on the phone and telling you you're 2 wrong. 3 No! 4 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 5 Dollinger in the negative. 6 Continue the roll. 7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 8 President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 10 Marcellino, why do you rise? 11 SENATOR MARCELLINO: May I have 12 unanimous consent to call Senator Spano out of 13 order? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Without 15 objection, Senator Spano should be called. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 17 SENATOR SPANO: Aye. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 19 Spano is recorded in the affirmative. 20 Continue the roll. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 22 SENATOR ESPADA: No. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley. 3844 1 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, to 4 explain my vote. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 6 Gold to explain his vote. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Senator 8 DeFrancisco, as you know, in front of your desk 9 and behind your desk are these lovely red books 10 and I heard your comments about the bill being 11 introduced on the 9th. 12 First of all, I may be mistaken 13 but I believe that that date never changes even 14 when you amend bills, so I think it was first 15 introduced on the 9th, but having said what you 16 said, I'm sure you're familiar with Senate Bill 17 6953 that was authored by Senator Espada on the 18 Vehicle and Traffic Law because, after all, that 19 was on the 11th, and I'm sure you've read that 20 bill. 21 Also Senator Velella had a bill 22 6954 introduced on that same day dealing with 23 prohibition of discrimination against foreign 3845 1 travel, I'm sure you read that and, of course, 2 you didn't and I didn't either, Senator, because 3 we don't read bills just because they're 4 introduced. That's why we have a committee 5 system, and that's why we have a First Report 6 and a Second Report and a Third Report, so it's 7 noted only to us Senator but also to the world, 8 there are lobbying organizations that want to be 9 heard and would never file memos on every single 10 bill, but they find out what is being 11 considered. 12 Our rules provide for 13 extraordinary circumstances and we can, in fact, 14 have the Rules Committee offer a report. Nobody 15 is saying that that's out of order. We're 16 saying that in our collective judgment we should 17 not accept the report. 18 Senator Cook, that doesn't 19 destroy the system. It only says that in this 20 particular one instance there is a better 21 alternative. 22 Lastly, I would like to say to 23 Senator DeFrancisco that I recognize this as a, 3846 1 quote, legitimate issue. The problem is that we 2 do not vote on issues. We never did. You can 3 not stand up and say vote me "yes" or vote me 4 "no" on the issue. We vote on a specific piece 5 of paper and that's where the problem lies. 6 Senator Connor, when he was 7 talking earlier, could only speak for himself, 8 and I can only speak for myself. But I agree 9 with him. If there was a bill that stopped a 10 procedure that is unconscionable, I would vote 11 for it and I want to tell you something, you're 12 going to have a chance tomorrow to make that 13 decision because if Senator Maltese doesn't want 14 to improve his bill, maybe we'll have to do that 15 and now we'll have some interesting votes 16 tomorrow. You can see whether or not you want 17 to support this bill if it, in fact, bans the 18 Roe v. Wade situation and takes it out of this 19 bill. 20 Let's see tomorrow whether or not 21 you would vote for this bill if it makes it 22 clear that it's supposed to do what it says it 23 does. That's the issue and we believe in voting 3847 1 no for accepting this report, that Senator 2 Volker's leadership on the Codes Committee could 3 lead us to a better bill that I would be 4 delighted to vote for, and others would be 5 delighted to vote for because this, I believe, 6 is one of those issues which does not polarize 7 people on the issue of abortion or no, but can 8 bring people together to say that something is 9 wrong. 10 I don't know why Senator Maltese 11 doesn't accept that opportunity, because it will 12 be very interesting. Senator Maltese could run 13 for reelection and say, "I was able in the issue 14 of abortion to do a bill which brought everybody 15 together." I think that's pretty strong stuff. 16 I vote no. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 18 Gold is recorded in the negative. 19 Continue the roll call. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator 21 Gonzalez. 22 (There was no response. ) 23 Senator Goodman. 3848 1 (There was no response. ) 2 Senator Hannon. 3 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock. 5 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 Hoffmann. 8 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Explain my 9 vote. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 11 Hoffmann, to explain her vote. 12 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr. 13 President. 14 I, too, find it a little 15 startling to here it suggested that simply 16 because a bill has appeared in print dealing 17 with a unique health matter that we should all 18 be so thoroughly versed and ready to vote on it 19 that we can do so on literally momentary 20 knowledge. It insults our intelligence and it 21 makes a mockery of the already difficult to 22 comprehend procedures of this chamber. 23 Once again, I'm going to vote no 3849 1 on what has become a travesty in this chamber, a 2 procedure it's clear that, for whatever reason, 3 the Majority in this house has chosen to 4 manipulate this process for some purpose that 5 makes light of the fact that we are late for the 6 budget, that we are not, in fact, deliberating 7 on the budget as we should be, but that we are 8 bringing up a health matter of most urgent, 9 urgent consequences and not bringing it through 10 the Health Committee, not allowing it to be 11 heard in public hearings and not even allowing 12 the members of this house to debate on whether 13 it is germane to our activities and whether we 14 should, in fact, include it on our calendar for 15 a vote as early as tomorrow morning. 16 Of course, I will vote no on this 17 procedural matter but I will continue to implore 18 upon the Majority Leader of this house to 19 exercise sounder judgment, to be the leader that 20 he was last year when he held the first Finance 21 Committee meeting ever in which we sat and 22 discussed the differences between the budget 23 proposal from this chamber and the budget 3850 1 proposal from the Assembly. It was a start. It 2 may have been a modest start, but it actually 3 showed the beginnings of some discussion, some 4 negotiation. 5 This is the same chamber that 6 sent several members to a conference committee 7 just a few days ago and again yesterday or this 8 morning, excuse me, to discuss the differences 9 between two -- the two houses' bills on small 10 city school budgets. 11 We have on occasion demonstrated 12 that we are willing to work like adults, that we 13 are willing to put aside partisan differences 14 and differences between the chambers to deal 15 with the issues of this state. That's what we 16 should be doing with our budget. 17 What we should not be doing is 18 injecting critical health issues, ones that they 19 cannot resolve in Washington and then purport to 20 send them to the floor having second-guessed the 21 President of the United States himself and 22 saying that everyone in this chamber will be 23 suddenly forced to vote on it tomorrow morning. 3851 1 An absolute travesty of our responsibilities as 2 legislators. 3 I vote no against any measure 4 coming to this chamber for a vote under these 5 matters tomorrow. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 7 Hoffmann is recorded in the negative. 8 Continue the roll call. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Holland. 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson. 12 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger. 14 SENATOR KRUGER: No. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 16 (There was no response. ) 17 Senator Lachman. 18 SENATOR LACHMAN: No. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack. 20 SENATOR LACK: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin. 22 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle. 3852 1 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell. 3 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator 5 Leichter. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 7 to explain my vote. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Chair 9 recognizes Senator Leichter to explain his 10 vote. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: What we're 12 seeing here are bully-boy tactics that defame 13 this house, make a mockery of the committee 14 system, that, frankly, defile a very important 15 issue, the issue of health, an issue that 16 affects women in this state, an issue that 17 people have great moral differences of opinion 18 on, but not to allow this to come after going 19 through the regular process and permitting the 20 people of this state to be heard, allowing 21 doctors to testify, allowing religious leaders 22 to testify, allowing women to testify on it, 23 that's what we should be doing. 3853 1 Why are we rushing this in a 2 fashion that will deny the people of this state 3 an opportunity on really one of the most 4 important issues, to have proper deliberative 5 considerate judgment? This is a bill that goes 6 into effect in November. Why bring it out 7 without committee hearing on a Tuesday and push 8 it to a vote on Wednesday? 9 I think it's disgraceful, and I 10 think you show that this house has no regard for 11 process. The only thing that counts with you is 12 politics and sheer raw power. 13 Mr. President, I vote no. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 15 Leichter is recorded in the negative. 16 Continue the roll. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy. 18 (There was no response. ) 19 Senator Libous. 20 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese. 22 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator 3854 1 Marcellino. 2 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 4 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator 6 Markowitz. 7 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz. 9 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Aye. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez. 11 SENATOR MENDEZ: No. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator 13 Montgomery. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 15 Montgomery to explain her vote. 16 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr. 17 President. I'm voting no on this procedural 18 matter and had I been in the chamber on the last 19 vote, I would have voted no because I think we 20 should have had more debate, more time to 21 debate, and so I'm voting no on this one, and I 22 would have voted no on the last one. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 3855 1 Montgomery is recorded in the negative. 2 Continue the roll call. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula. 4 (There was no response. ) 5 Senator Nozzolio. 6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato. 8 SENATOR ONORATO: No. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator 10 Oppenheimer. 11 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan. 13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator 15 Paterson. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 18 Paterson to explain his vote. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 20 President. 21 I'm happy that not too many 22 members of the Majority got up to support the 23 actions that occurred today because I think any 3856 1 further explanation that would try to justify 2 this would be sort of like having fruit of the 3 poisonous tree. 4 I think it's very clear to every 5 one that this action showed absolutely no 6 fairness and a complete disregard for the 7 process. I was happy that Senator Hoffmann 8 pointed out that anybody could come to a view 9 about an issue within 12 hours but that, as 10 legislators, 12 hours is not enough time to be 11 making a decision even if a bill leads 29 12 lives. 13 We would like the opportunity to 14 hear other people's points of view, read mail on 15 the subject, make phone calls, get back FAXes of 16 positions that different groups have taken about 17 this situation. Also just sitting here in the 18 chamber, I've heard a great deal of discussion 19 about this bill and a great deal of disagreement 20 not based on how it should be voted, but just 21 basically on what the bill says. 22 And so, finally, Mr. President, I 23 think that the report of the Rules Committee 3857 1 which is what we're voting on is not something 2 that is precedental. It is something in which 3 we would be instructing the Rules Committee as 4 to whether this is a seasonable period to 5 discuss this bill. Without the requisite time 6 to prepare and without the requisite time to 7 allow the public, particularly the people who 8 are supporting this bill, to come forward and 9 justify, I think disgraces them maybe even more 10 than those who are opposed to it, because I 11 would think that they would want their 12 consciences clear should this bill pass or ever 13 become law, that there was a reasonable time 14 given to those who had a differing point of view 15 and, for those reasons, I vote not to accept the 16 Rules Committee report. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 18 Paterson is recorded in the negative. 19 Continue the roll call. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present. 21 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 23 SENATOR RATH: Aye. 3858 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 2 SENATOR SALAND: Aye. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator 4 Santiago. 5 SENATOR SANTIAGO: No. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 Seabrook. 8 SENATOR SEABROOK: No. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears. 10 SENATOR SEARS: Aye. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward. 12 (There was no response. ) 13 Senator Skelos. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Aye. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 16 SENATOR SMITH: No. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator 18 Stachowski. 19 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 20 President, explain my vote. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 22 Stachowski to explain his vote. 23 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Earlier 3859 1 Senator Cook referred as a member of Rules that 2 the Rules Committee has the right to refer any 3 bill out directly to third reading and Senator 4 Dollinger said that they have the ability to do 5 that, but the body has to agree to it, and I 6 might point out that on numerous occasions we 7 not only have referred them but agreed to them 8 without any debate at all -- bills much more 9 complicated than this one, much longer than this 10 one, maybe many that took a lot longer in Rules 11 to get out than this one, but at least when 12 questions were asked in Rules on all those 13 previous bills, whoever was answering, whether 14 it was the sponsor, whether it was the counsel, 15 no matter who it was, had the ability to answer 16 the questions and had the information readily 17 available during the committee meeting, and so 18 there was no opposition from this side unless it 19 was a no vote in principle on the bill coming 20 out. 21 In this bill and in this 22 particular instance, this was not the case. 23 This is not the case and wasn't in committee. 3860 1 Somebody earlier pointed out that the bill has 2 been available since April 9th. We should all 3 have been able to read it and be familiar with 4 it. That may be true but -- and maybe we 5 wouldn't have read it, but at least the sponsor 6 who was fielding the questions would have been 7 able to give the definitions that were asked for 8 and explain the procedure precisely that was 9 asked for and answer a couple of other questions 10 that were asked. 11 That was not the case, so that 12 that example, if anybody should be upset about 13 that, should have been whoever was fielding the 14 questions in committee and if those questions 15 were answered, there wouldn't have been this 16 long debate about this bill coming here and it 17 would probably be taken up tomorrow. 18 The fact is that this bill makes 19 it a criminal offense and those definitions are 20 necessary and so that it's really incumbent on 21 us to have those answers so that if we put a 22 bill out that's going to be a law that the 23 courts can uphold and if those definitions 3861 1 aren't answered, aren't available, then how do 2 we even do these things? How do people uphold 3 the offense if it is an offense? 4 My problem is that all those 5 things were missing, and so that in this 6 particular instance, I too have a problem with 7 the bill coming from Rules directly to the floor 8 and it's only in this particular instance. 9 I vote no. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 11 Stachowski is recorded in the negative. 12 Continue the roll. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator 14 Stafford. 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Stavisky. 18 SENATOR STAVISKY: No. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo. 20 SENATOR TRUNZO: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully. 22 SENATOR TULLY: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella. 3862 1 SENATOR VELELLA: Aye. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker. 3 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon. 5 SENATOR WALDON: Explain my 6 vote. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 8 Waldon to explain his vote. 9 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 10 my colleagues, no one called me a history buff 11 but on occasion I do watch the channel on TV 12 that is the History Channel, and this past week 13 while I was home with the flu, I had occasion to 14 watch the channel, and it was dealing with a 15 particular period during the second World War 16 where -- excuse me -- the German army employed 17 lightning tactics - 18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Excuse 19 me, Senator Walton. Excuse me. If I could have 20 order in the chambers, please. If we could 21 extend the courtesy to our colleague, it would 22 be appreciated. 23 Senator Waldon. 3863 1 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 2 much, Mr. President. 3 The German army employed 4 lightning tactics in order to accomplish its 5 mission. They went through the Ardennes, which 6 was thought not to be penetrable. They went 7 over the Maginot Line which was built in order 8 to keep all enemies out. But this is not the 9 Maginot Line, and this is not the Ardennes. 10 This is the chamber of the Senate of the state 11 of New York, and people come here to deliberate 12 and to profoundly deal with the problems facing 13 the people of the state of New York. 14 This time it was not done in 15 terms of deliberation in a very meaningful way. 16 This time it was not done in terms of meaning 17 the process was carried out in terms of thinking 18 soundly about what we were going to do. There 19 was no real opportunity for the Committee on 20 Codes to deal with this problem. There was no 21 opportunity for doctors who really understand 22 the gravity of the situation that we're dealing 23 with to come and testify and let us know the 3864 1 nuances of what we're doing. There was no 2 opportunity for women, who are the most impacted 3 by what we're doing here today, to come and let 4 us know how they feel, how the love and caring 5 that they have for their children will be 6 affected by what we're doing here. 7 This was a blitzkrieg, and the 8 beauty of the show that I saw on television was 9 that, though the blitzkrieg early on was 10 successful, eventually it didn't work. It did 11 not work, and we all know the history of what 12 happened in regard to the blitzkrieg. 13 This is a mistake, this blitz 14 krieg. I believe it is not foolproof. I 15 believe eventually it will fail and we will go 16 back to the process that reflects the important 17 decisions that must be made in this chamber. We 18 are better than the blitzkrieg. 19 Mr. President, my colleagues, I 20 vote in the no. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 22 Waldon is recorded in the negative. 23 Continue the roll. 3865 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright. 2 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: 4 Absentees. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush. 6 (There was no response. ) 7 Senator Gonzalez. 8 (There was no response. ) 9 Senator Goodman. 10 (There was no response. ) 11 Senator Kuhl. 12 (There was no response. ) 13 Senator Levy. 14 SENATOR LEVY: Aye. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula. 16 (There was no response. ) 17 Senator Seward. 18 (There was no response. ) 19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Read 20 the results. 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34, nays 22 21. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 3866 1 Rules report is accepted. 2 Senator Marcellino. 3 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 4 President, is there any housekeeping at the 5 desk? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: There 7 is one motion. 8 Senator Holland. 9 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 10 on page 26, I offer the following amendments to 11 Calendar Number 597, for Senator Sears, Senate 12 Print Number 5917-A, and ask that the bill 13 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: 15 Amendments are received. 16 Senator Marcellino. 17 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 18 President, there being no further business - 19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 20 Paterson, why do you rise? 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 22 I'd like to announce that there will be a 23 conference of the Minority tomorrow morning at 3867 1 10:00 a.m. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Be a 3 conference of the Senate Minority tomorrow 4 morning at 10:00 a.m. 5 Senator Marcellino. 6 SENATOR MARCELLINO: There being 7 no further business, I move we adjourn until 8 tomorrow, April 24th, at 10:00 a.m. sharp. 9 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President, I 10 oppose the motion, Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 12 Connor, why do you rise? 13 SENATOR CONNOR: To oppose the 14 motion. The Senate has a schedule on session 15 times. The Senate session on Wednesday calls 16 for a session at 11:00 a.m. To change it at 7:00 17 p.m. to 10:00 a.m. tomorrow morning, when the 18 Majority knows they just placed on the floor a 19 major bill, has not been conferenced by this 20 side as we maintained in the procedural motion 21 or - 22 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 23 Skelos, why do you rise? 3868 1 SENATOR CONNOR: I object to the 2 motion to adjourn until 10:00 a.m. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 4 believe a motion to adjourn is not debatable. 5 SENATOR CONNOR: Slow roll call, 6 Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Call the 8 roll. Five are standing. Slow roll call. We 9 have a motion to adjourn. Call the roll. The 10 Secretary will read. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 12 SENATOR ABATE: No. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Alesi. 14 SENATOR ALESI: Yes. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush. 16 (There was no response. ) 17 Senator Bruno. 18 (Affirmative indication. ) 19 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor. 21 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 23 Connor to explain his vote. 3869 1 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you. 2 You know, I really -- I really 3 hate to take up the time of this chamber and 4 have a slow roll call on a motion to adjourn, 5 but in the whole context of what's transpired 6 here today, the total disregard for the 7 deliberative process and for letting members 8 have an opportunity to consider very, very 9 important legislation, changing, deviating from 10 the schedule of an 11:00 a.m. session to 10:00 11 a.m. has the effect of denying this conference 12 the elementary courtesy that, in past regimes, 13 has always been extended in this house, and that 14 is when major legislation is brought forth, the 15 Minority is given an opportunity to conference 16 it because we all know of that unwritten rule, 17 that never published rule, that secret rule, 18 that says no legislation makes it to this floor 19 unless it's first conferenced and approved by a 20 majority of the Majority party, and in view of 21 that, it's our intention tomorrow to have a 22 conference at 10:00 a.m. 23 We can either - 3870 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Can I hear - 2 SENATOR CONNOR: We can either 3 do - 4 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 5 Connor. Can we have order in the chamber, 6 please, so we can proceed. 7 The Chair recognizes Senator 8 Connor to continue. 9 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 10 President. 11 It seems to me our choices here 12 are simple. We can reject this motion to 13 adjourn until 10:00 a.m., do another one saying 14 that we'll start at 11:00 a.m. and we can start 15 promptly, or the Majority can insist on 16 adjourning until 10:00 a.m., and probably my 17 guess is it will probably be around noon when we 18 really get down to the business of this house. 19 I vote no on the motion to 20 adjourn. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 22 Connor is reported in the negative. Continue 23 the roll. 3871 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook. 2 (There was no response. ) 3 Senator DeFrancisco. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 5 DeFrancisco to explain his vote. 6 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I want to 7 follow through with the spirit of Senator 8 Bruno's reforms in this house and not have an 9 all-night session. Because of that, I vote 10 yes. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 12 DeFrancisco is recorded in the affirmative. 13 Continue the roll. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo. 15 SENATOR DiCARLO: Yes. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Dollinger. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explain my 19 vote, Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 21 Dollinger to explain his vote. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 23 President, when I spoke on the issue of 3872 1 accepting the Rules Committee report, I made 2 what even I thought was perhaps an outlandish 3 suggestion, that the reason why the Majority was 4 rushing this thing through was because they were 5 afraid that their constituents would call them 6 and say they were wrong. 7 Senator Connor, I'm now totally 8 convinced that I was absolutely right. The 9 reason why they're going to cut off this debate, 10 the reason why they want to get it done quickly 11 is so the people who would call them and tell 12 them they're wrong won't even know tomorrow 13 morning we're doing it. 14 I don't understand why we're 15 changing the calendar. I don't understand why 16 we're doing it. My respect for the order of 17 this house, which perhaps was growing in the 18 last year, seems to once again to have been 19 diminished back to its minimum status, because 20 this isn't about rules. This is all about 21 politics, and anybody that tells me otherwise 22 will have a very difficult task explaining what 23 happened tonight. 3873 1 No! 2 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 3 Dollinger is recorded in the negative. 4 I would remind the members of the 5 Senate if we could keep the noise down, we can 6 proceed quicker. 7 Proceed with the roll. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 9 SENATOR ESPADA: No. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley. 11 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 15 Gold to explain his vote. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I'm 17 very nervous about what Senator Connor said 18 about starting work at noon tomorrow. I want to 19 start at 11:00. I'm going to vote no. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 21 Gold in the negative. 22 Continue the roll. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator 3874 1 Gonzalez. 2 (There was no response. ) 3 Senator Goodman. 4 (There was no response.) 5 Senator Hannon. 6 (There was no response.) 7 Senator Hoblock. 8 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator 10 Hoffmann. 11 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Explain my 12 vote. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 14 Hoffmann to explain her vote. 15 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Well, I feel 16 compelled, since I haven't taken too much 17 opportunity to speak on the floor of this 18 session, to explain once again on a procedural 19 motion where I find most of my colleagues on the 20 other side of the aisle really inconsistent with 21 the spirit of democracy as we know it. 22 We are expected to follow certain 23 rules of procedures. We're expected to 3875 1 deliberate in an open and forthright manner 2 those issues important to this state, and I 3 continue to believe that one of those most 4 important issues is resolving a state budget. I 5 have heard only recently from reporters that the 6 Governor is preoccupied with resolving a state 7 budget. In fact, he has threatened once again 8 to try to find a way to withhold the salaries of 9 lawmakers even if the rest of the state gets 10 paid, so he at least is thinking about this. 11 I'm not so sure that this is a 12 purely partisan issue. I think it may not be 13 something that is the major preoccupation of the 14 second floor of this Capitol right now but, for 15 some reason which is totally mystifying to me, 16 it appears to be a preoccupation of the 17 leadership or a large number of the members, all 18 of them willing to support it on the other side 19 of the aisle, and I represent so many people of 20 that political party who I know do not feel the 21 same way they do, I feel compelled to say no, we 22 should not change our procedures and suddenly 23 meet at 10:00 o'clock instead of at 11:00 3876 1 o'clock, not giving members an opportunity to 2 study a piece of legislation as meaningful as 3 this for an adequate amount of time, and having 4 it rushed to the floor. 5 No, of course, I'm not going to 6 support any of that. This is not a partisan 7 issue. For some reason, some people are 8 misinformed about the mood of the public out 9 there, and I hope they're going to get a quick 10 wake-up call because the voters and the 11 taxpayers of this state want us to work on the 12 budget, ladies and gentlemen. My colleagues, 13 they do not want us to be debating a measure 14 that apparently is not resolvable by the 15 President of the United States and the United 16 States Congress. They want us to put a budget 17 together tomorrow. 18 I'll vote no. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 20 Hoffmann is recorded in the negative. 21 Proceed with the roll. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Holland. 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 3877 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Could we have 2 a little order in the chamber. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Proceed 4 with the roll. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson. 6 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger. 8 SENATOR KRUGER: No. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 10 (There was no response. ) 11 Senator Lachman. 12 SENATOR LACHMAN: No. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack. 14 SENATOR LACK: Aye. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin. 16 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle. 18 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell. 20 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator 22 Leichter. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Nay. 3878 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy. 2 SENATOR LEVY: Aye. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous. 4 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese. 6 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Marcellino. 9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 11 (There was no response. ) 12 Senator Markowitz. 13 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Briefly to 14 explain. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 16 Markowitz to explain his vote. 17 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: My first few 18 months in the Senate back in 1979, a wonderful 19 colleague of mine by the name of Caesar Trunzo 20 said to me, "Markowitz, it's not for real." 21 Caesar, you are really right. 22 No! 23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 3879 1 Markowitz reported in the negative. 2 Continue. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz. 4 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez. 6 (There was no response. ) 7 Senator Montgomery. 8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula. 10 (There was no response. ) 11 Senator Nozzolio. 12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato. 14 SENATOR ONORATO: No. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator 16 Oppenheimer. 17 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan. 19 SENATOR PADAVAN: Aye. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator 21 Paterson. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: No. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present. 3880 1 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 3 SENATOR RATH: Aye. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 5 SENATOR SALAND: Aye. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 Santiago. 8 (There was no response. ) 9 Senator Seabrook. 10 SENATOR SEABROOK: No. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears. 12 SENATOR SEARS: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward. 14 (There was no response. ) 15 Senator Skelos. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Aye. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 18 SENATOR SMITH: Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 20 Smith to explain her vote. 21 SENATOR SMITH: I won't have many 22 words to say this evening so that I'm sure that 23 I have time tomorrow to have a lot to say so 3881 1 that I can help assure that we don't start 2 before noon. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: How do 4 you vote, Senator Smith? 5 SENATOR SMITH: No. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 7 Smith recorded in the negative. 8 Continue with the roll. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 10 (There was no response. ) 11 Senator Stachowski. 12 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: To explain 13 my vote. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 15 Stachowski to explain his vote. 16 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: I would hope 17 that somebody had heard Senator Connor, because 18 I would hate to think while the West Point 19 people are waiting around to do their resolu 20 tion, that we're arguing over procedural matters 21 and we don't even get to the West Point 22 resolution until around 12:00 o'clock or 2:00 23 o'clock in the afternoon. 3882 1 I vote no. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator 3 Stachowski is recorded in the negative. 4 Continue the roll. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator 6 Stafford. 7 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator 9 Stavisky. 10 SENATOR STAVISKY: No. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo. 12 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully. 14 SENATOR TULLY: Aye. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella. 16 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker. 18 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon. 20 (There was no response. ) 21 Senator Wright. 22 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: 3883 1 Absentees. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush. 3 (There was no response. ) 4 Senator Cook. 5 (There was no response. ) 6 Senator Gonzalez. 7 (There was no response. ) 8 Senator Goodman. 9 SENATOR GOODMAN: Aye. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon. 11 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 13 (There was no response. ) 14 Senator Marchi. 15 (There was no response. ) 16 Senator Mendez. 17 SENATOR MENDEZ: No. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 19 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula. 21 (There was no response. ) 22 Senator Santiago. 23 (There was no response. ) 3884 1 Senator Seward. 2 (There was no response. ) 3 Senator Spano. 4 SENATOR SPANO: Aye. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon. 6 (There was no response. ) 7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: 8 Results. 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34, nays 10 19. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 12 motion is approved. The Senate stands adjourned 13 until tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. 14 (Whereupon at 7:23 p.m., the 15 Senate adjourned.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23