Wednesday, May 8, 1996

4769 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 May 8, 1996 11 11:14 a.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 SENATOR MICHAEL J.HOBLOCK, JR., Acting President 19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 20 21 22 23 4770 1 P R O C E E D I N G S. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Senate 3 will come to order. 4 I ask everyone present to please 5 rise and join with me in the Pledge of 6 Allegiance. 7 (The assemblage repeated the 8 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 9 In the absence of clergy, may we 10 bow our heads in a moment of silence. 11 (A moment of silence was 12 observed.) 13 Reading of the Journal. 14 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 15 Tuesday, May 7th. The Senate met pursuant to 16 adjournment, Senator Kuhl in the chair upon 17 designation of the Temporary President. Prayer 18 by the Reverend Bishop Muriel Grant, Mount 19 Olivet Discipleship, Brooklyn. The Journal of 20 Monday, May 6th was read and approved. On 21 motion, Senate adjourned. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 23 Without objection, the journal stands approved 4771 1 as read. 2 Presentation of petitions. 3 Messages from the Assembly. 4 Messages from the Governor. 5 Reports of standing committees. 6 Reports of select committees. 7 Communications and reports from 8 state officers. 9 Motions and resolutions. 10 Senator Farley. 11 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr. 12 President. 13 On behalf of Senator Velella, 14 please place a sponsor's star on Calendar 876. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 16 Starred at the request of the sponsor. 17 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of 18 Senator Levy, Mr. President, on page 71 I offer 19 the following amendments to Calendar Number 845, 20 Senate Print 7341, and I ask that that bill 21 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 23 Amendments are received. 4772 1 Senator Bruno. 2 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I 3 believe that there is a resolution at the desk 4 by Senator DeFrancisco. I would ask that the 5 title be read and that we move its adoption. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Clerk 7 will read. 8 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 9 DeFrancisco, Legislative Resolution honoring the 10 students of Grade 6 at Cathedral School, 11 Syracuse for their participation in the 49th 12 Senate District Good News - Good Kids student 13 recognition program. 14 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Mr. 15 President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 17 Senator DeFrancisco. 18 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I rise to 19 just congratulate these students who are in the 20 gallery today. This is the last group that 21 we'll be bringing up. They're from the 22 Cathedral School in the city of Syracuse and 23 it's a group of sixth graders and what they've 4773 1 done for our project and have done for 2 themselves and for the community is to feed the 3 homeless. They go to their parish center, 4 groups of kids, each day to -- each week to feed 5 the homeless, a hundred homeless men, and 6 they're only sixth graders, young children that 7 have already been given the proper direction, 8 already know what it means to be responsible, 9 already know what it means to be caring, and I 10 want to congratulate them for doing the fine 11 things they are doing for the city of Syracuse 12 and the people they serve and they've got great 13 bright futures as great citizens of this state 14 if they continue that same attitude of 15 responsibility and caring for other people, and 16 I'm very pleased that they're here with us today 17 and I urge the unanimous adoption of this 18 resolution. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: On 20 behalf of the Senate, we welcome the teachers 21 and the students from the Cathedral School of 22 Syracuse, and thank them for sharing their 23 responsibility and gifts with those in need. 4774 1 The question is on the 2 resolution. All in favor signify by saying 3 aye. 4 (Response of "Aye.") 5 Opposed nay. 6 (There was no response. ) 7 The resolution is adopted. 8 Senator Bruno. 9 SENATOR BRUNO: Yeah, Mr. 10 President. I believe there are three privileged 11 resolutions at the desk by Senator Connor. I 12 would ask that their titles be read and that we 13 move for their immediate adoption. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 15 Secretary will read. 16 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 17 Connor, Legislative Resolution commending 18 Letitia Cooper Benjamin upon the occasion of her 19 designation for special recognition by the Red 20 Hook Arts on May 16, 1996. 21 By Senator Connor, Legislative 22 Resolution commending Michelle Demonte 23 Lucarelli, upon the occasion of her designation 4775 1 for special recognition by the Red Hook Arts on 2 May 16, 1996. 3 By Senator Connor, Legislative 4 Resolution commending on Pam P. Lindsay upon the 5 occasion of her designation for special 6 recognition by the Red Hook Arts on May 16, 7 1996. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 9 question is on the resolutions. All in favor 10 signify by saying aye. 11 (Response of "Aye.") 12 Opposed nay. 13 (There was no response. ) 14 The resolutions are adopted. 15 Senator Bruno, there are 16 substitutions at the desk. 17 SENATOR BRUNO: Please take the 18 substitutions. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 20 Secretary will read. 21 THE SECRETARY: On page 7, 22 Senator Levy moves to discharge from the 23 Committee on Health, Assembly Bill Number 9820 4776 1 and substitute it for the identical First Report 2 Calendar 1007. 3 On page 10, Senator Larkin moves 4 to discharge from the Committee on Judiciary, 5 Assembly Bill Number 2288-B and substitute it 6 for the identical First Report Calendar 1027. 7 On page 13, Senator Skelos moves 8 to discharge from the Committee on Judiciary, 9 Assembly Bill Number 4728-B, and substitute it 10 for the identical First Report Calendar 1053. 11 On page 16, Senator Larkin moves 12 to discharge from the Committee on Investiga 13 tions, Assembly Bill Number 6818-C, and 14 substitute it for the identical First Report 15 Calendar 1071. 16 On page 16, Senator Goodman moves 17 to discharge from the Committee on Investiga 18 tions, Assembly Bill Number 7963 and substitute 19 it for the identical First Report Calendar 20 1072. 21 On page 17, Senator Goodman moves 22 to discharge from the Committee on Investiga 23 tions, Assembly Bill Number 5881 and substitute 4777 1 it for the identical First Report Calendar 2 1074. 3 On page 21, Senator Seward moves 4 to discharge from the Committee on Codes, 5 Assembly Bill 8549-A and substitute it for the 6 identical First Report Calendar 1106. 7 And on page 29, Senator Nozzolio 8 moves to discharge from the Committee on Crime 9 Victims, Crime and Correction, Assembly Bill 10 Number 8120-A, and substitute it for the 11 identical First Report Calendar 1174. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 13 Substitutions are ordered. 14 Senator Bruno, are you ready for 15 the calendar? 16 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 17 can we at this time take up the 18 non-controversial calendar. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 20 Secretary will read. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 411, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 5850, an 23 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law, 4778 1 in relation to excluding from the definition of 2 facility. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 4 the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 8 the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 12 bill is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 429, by Senator Libous, Senate Print 4497, an 15 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 16 relation to authorizing senior citizens to renew 17 motor vehicle registrations annually. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 19 the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 23 the roll. 4779 1 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 4 bill is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 519, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 6090-B, 7 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation 8 Law, in relation to prohibiting the possession 9 and transportation of live venomous reptiles. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 11 the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 13 act shall take effect on the 180th day. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 15 the roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 19 bill is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 532, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 6237-A, 22 an act to amend the Navigation Law, in relation 23 to type of life preservers. 4780 1 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 2 the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 6 the roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 10 bill is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 557, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 6408, an 13 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 14 the community services block grant program. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 16 the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 20 the roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 4781 1 bill is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 572, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 4 6052-A, an act to amend the Real Property Tax 5 Law, in relation to authorizing an 6 infrastructure exemption in certain instances. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Lay 9 the bill aside. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 597, by Senator Sears, Senate Print - 12 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside for 13 the day. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Laid 15 aside for the day. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 628, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 6460-A, an 18 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 19 relation to providing for the permanent 20 revocation of a driver's license. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 4782 1 act shall take effect on the first day of 2 September. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 4 the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 8 bill is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 634, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 6622-A, an 11 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 12 relation to mandatory suspension of licenses. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 14 the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect on the first day of 17 November. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 19 the roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 23 bill is passed. 4783 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 675, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 6631, an 3 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 4 establishment of the Resident Advisor Program. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 6 the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 8 act shall take effect April 1st. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 10 the roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 14 bill is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 683, by Senator Cook, Senate Print Number 6412, 17 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 18 relation to designating civil defense emergency 19 vehicles. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside, 21 please. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Lay 23 aside 683. 4784 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 690, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 4068, an 3 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 4 including police officers in the violent felony 5 offense of aggravated assault upon a peace 6 officer. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 8 the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect on the first day of 11 November. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 13 the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 17 bill is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 699, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 6646, an 20 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to the 21 definition of "criminal act" for the purposes of 22 enterprise corruption. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 4785 1 the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect on the first day of 4 November. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 6 the roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 10 bill is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 720, by member of the Assembly Parment, Assembly 13 Print 1221-A, an act to amend the Agriculture 14 and Markets Law, in relation to domestic animal 15 health permits. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 17 the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 19 act shall take effect on the 30th day. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 21 the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 4786 1 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 2 bill is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 721, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 3981, an act 5 to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in 6 relation to strengthening the licensing 7 requirements. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 9 the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect on July 1st. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 13 the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 17 bill is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 722, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 6223, an act 20 to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in 21 relation to improving the agricultural districts 22 program. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 4787 1 the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 17. This 3 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 5 the roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 9 bill is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 724, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 5553-A. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Lay 14 the bill aside. Home rule message is at the 15 desk. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 742, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print Number 18 6841, an act authorizing the Education 19 Department to apportion certain transportation 20 aid to the West Islip Union Free School 21 District. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: A 23 local fiscal impact statement is at the desk. 4788 1 Read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 5 the roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 9 bill is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 774, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 281-A, an 12 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 13 providing for business tax credits. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 15 the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 19 the roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay aside. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Lay 23 aside, reconsider the vote. Lay aside. 4789 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 776, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 1434-B, an 3 act authorizing the Commissioner of General 4 Services to sell certain land to the city of 5 Beacon. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: There 7 is no home rule message at the desk. Lay the 8 bill aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 781, by Senator Present, Senate Print 6397, an 11 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to the 12 distribution of additional mortgage recording 13 tax. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 15 the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect on the 30th day. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Lay 19 the bill aside. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 784, by Senator Present, Senate Print 6568, an 22 act authorizing the Commissioner of General 23 Services to consent to the Commissioner of 4790 1 Environmental Conservation to transfer and 2 convey state lands. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 4 the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 8 the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 12 bill is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 885, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 3091, an 15 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 16 cooperation between police agencies and the 17 United States Immigration and Naturalization 18 Service. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Lay 21 the bill aside. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 931, by member of the Assembly Tonko, Assembly 4791 1 Print 9678, an act to authorize the county of 2 Schenectady to convey to CNG Transmission Cor 3 poration easements. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: A home 5 rule message is at the desk. Read the last 6 section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 10 the roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 14 bill is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 985, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 7502, an act 17 to amend the Education Law, in relation to 18 submission of school district budgets. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 20 the last section. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside, 22 please. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Lay 4792 1 the bill aside. 2 Senator Skelos, that completes 3 the non-controversial calendar. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 5 if we could have a reading of the controversial 6 calendar at this time. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 8 Secretary will read. 9 THE SECRETARY: On page 48, 10 Calendar Number 572, by Senator DeFrancisco, 11 Senate Print 6052-A, an act to amend the Real 12 Property Tax Law, in relation to authorizing an 13 infrastructure exemption in certain instances. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 16 Explanation has been asked for. Senator 17 DeFrancisco. 18 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: This is a 19 bill which would provide a local option for the 20 local municipalities, if passed by the 21 Legislature, to grant an exemption to owners of 22 building lots for that portion of the construc 23 tion that has taken place for the infrastruc 4793 1 ture, and "infrastructure" is defined in the 2 bill, and it includes public facilities which 3 are intended to be dedicated to the municipal 4 corporation or special district thereof, includ 5 ing streets, storm and sanitary sewers, drainage 6 facilities and other facilities required by the 7 municipality to be installed in such residential 8 subdivision. 9 The purpose for it is right now, 10 I know in our county and I know throughout the 11 state, there is a substantial down-turn in the 12 building industry, and there are many home 13 builders that are stuck with their inventory 14 that are half completed by way of infrastructure 15 work with no -- no purchasers in sight for the 16 construction. The infrastructure is normally 17 done first, and then if they find a buyer a home 18 will be built on that property. 19 There's some substantial number 20 of builders in my district that have requested 21 this bill and as well as the Home Builders 22 Association of the state, to give the local 23 communities an option that if they wanted to 4794 1 exempt that infrastructure until there was a 2 certificate of occupancy on the house, that they 3 should be given that option and that is the 4 purpose of the bill, and that's my explanation. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 6 if Senator DeFrancisco will yield. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 8 Senator Leichter. Senator DeFrancisco, do you 9 yield? 10 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: I mean you're 12 making it local option, so it really is not 13 objectionable. I'm just concerned that we are 14 giving municipalities, localities, a power and 15 sometimes they come under, as we know, certain 16 influences and, while in some instances I can 17 understand trying to lift the burden from a 18 contractor or developer, but wouldn't this 19 enable the developer -- the contractor -- just 20 to hold back on getting a certificate of 21 occupancy until he finds a buyer, then come in, 22 get a certificate of occupancy. In the meantime 23 the municipality loses the tax payment. I mean 4795 1 the municipality's invested a lot of money in 2 infrastructure, and so on. 3 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Well, 4 generally, the infrastructure, at least in our 5 area, is built by the contractor and they are 6 holding the homes, holding that tract until they 7 could get a residential buyer to put up a piece 8 of property, a building, on that property. 9 Now, there's no incentive for a 10 home builder to build a structure and hold onto 11 it and have that investment of a hundred 12 thousand dollars or whatever it might be sitting 13 there and just holding the certificate of 14 occupancy because all this exempts is the 15 infrastructure, not the building itself. 16 So what this protects is that 17 person who's made a substantial investment in 18 valuable land exempting that investment from 19 increased taxes until there is a building that's 20 ready for occupancy, so I don't think it would 21 be an incentive for home builders to hold that 22 certificate. They'd want to get that house 23 that's sold immediately because of the 4796 1 investment. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, excuse 3 me. Senator DeFrancisco, I appreciate when the 4 market is slow as it may be at various times and 5 it may be now, obviously the builder is out 6 trying to get a purchaser but he can hold back 7 filing the certificate of occupancy until he 8 finds that purchaser. 9 I'm just concerned about the loss 10 of revenue to municipalities. I understand that 11 we want to be as friendly as we can. The 12 builders, on the other hand, they take certain 13 risks, and I don't know whether the taxpayers 14 ought to take that risk and assume it by the 15 payments that will have to be made by other 16 taxpayers because you're not going to get the 17 full value of the plot that you're exempting. 18 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: What I'm 19 saying is that you -- there's two stages, the 20 infrastructure work and there's a lot of 21 builders in central New York that have their 22 infrastructures in place with no buyers in 23 sight. They can't hold the certificate of 4797 1 occupancy. The building isn't on the property. 2 If they -- if the building is built, they're not 3 getting an exemption or a deduction, an 4 exemption for the building structure which 5 they've put a mountain of money in, so there 6 would be no incentive for them to hold a 7 certificate of occupancy because they're not 8 gaining anything more and they put up a 9 substantial investment in it. 10 This is just the infrastructure, 11 and what I liken it to is somebody who is 12 holding an inventory in a store to sell a piece 13 of personal property and that inventory is being 14 held, and if we don't make it financially 15 feasible for them, in slow times like this, to 16 hold that inventory rather than going under, I 17 think in the long term the municipality is going 18 to get hurt by not having this valuable asset 19 which will be taxed at a much higher level at 20 some point in the future. 21 And, finally, it's a local 22 option. If the people agree locally that - 23 with your theory, then they certainly don't have 4798 1 to implement it. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'll accept. 3 Let the locality decide. 4 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Thank you. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 6 Senator Hoffmann. 7 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I'm familiar 8 with this situation, and I think Senator 9 DeFrancisco has explained it very well, but I 10 wonder if he would yield for one question. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 12 Senator DeFrancisco, do you yield? 13 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 14 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Senator 15 DeFrancisco, given the fact that there is a 16 slow-down on housing in the central New York 17 area, is there a situation right now where large 18 tracts of land are owned by developers who are 19 unable to make improvements on them and build on 20 them because the cost of the taxes to them once 21 they have the infrastructure in place, would be 22 exorbitant, and is that, in fact, in your 23 opinion, a deterrent to housing construction? 4799 1 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Right. 2 You're deterring the development of the 3 infrastructure because then they would be 4 holding a much more substantial investment 5 indefinitely until they have got a - 6 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you. 7 Would Senator DeFrancisco yield to one further 8 question. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 10 Senator DeFrancisco, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 12 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Senator, would 13 you think that this particular legislation might 14 actually inspire more housing starts, creating 15 more jobs in the construction industry, creating 16 more jobs in the building trades? 17 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I don't 18 know if it will inspire more construction 19 because the builders would love to construct 20 more homes. The problem is the buyers aren't 21 there. What it will do is it will prevent those 22 builders who have made this substantial 23 investment while there's a slow period of time 4800 1 from going under because of the taxes that they 2 have to pay and ultimately preventing them from 3 continuing in a business when the market 4 changes. 5 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, 6 Senator. 7 On the bill, Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: On the 9 bill, Senator Hoffmann. 10 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I think 11 Senator DeFrancisco has introduced a very 12 worthwhile piece of legislation, and I would 13 believe at this point that anything that we can 14 do to ease the tax burden during that interim 15 phase for the construction industry is going to 16 inspire an increase in construction. The more 17 capital that contractors and developers have 18 tied up in taxes for which they have no revenue 19 at this point and in some cases are not even 20 anticipating revenue for a number of years, the 21 more chilling effect on the home construction 22 industry. 23 We have one of the worst 4801 1 histories in upstate New York, certainly in 2 central New York, of a slow-down in home 3 construction that's been experienced in the 4 country. It's -- it is a frightening time for 5 us, so we really must heed the concerns of the 6 home builders industry, not just for those 7 builders, but I would urge my colleagues to 8 consider the large number of people who are 9 employed in the building trades who have a 10 better chance of being employed particularly as 11 we go into the construction season. 12 If there is a greater amount of 13 capital available for the builders by relieving 14 the tax burden during that infrastructure phase, 15 we are more likely to see a greater number of 16 housing starts. So I would urge my colleagues 17 on this side of the aisle to support this 18 legislation. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 20 the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 4802 1 the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 5 bill is passed. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 8 Senator Skelos. 9 SENATOR SKELOS: At this time, if 10 we could call up Calendar Number 985, Senate 11 Number 7502, first for the purpose of Senator 12 Holland voting and then to conduct the debate on 13 the bill. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 15 Secretary will read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 985, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 7502, an act 18 to amend the Education Law, in relation to 19 submission of school district budgets. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 21 Senator Holland. 22 SENATOR HOLLAND: I vote yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: O.K. 4803 1 Senator Holland. Read the last 2 section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 39. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 6 the roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 9 Senator Holland, how do you vote? 10 SENATOR HOLLAND: I still vote 11 yes. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Thank 13 you. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Please withdraw 15 the roll call and, if we could just stand at 16 ease for one moment. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 18 roll call is withdrawn, and we'll stand at ease 19 for a couple of moments. (Pause) All right. 20 Calendar 985, Senate Bill 7502. Senator Bruno. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: I don't think 22 the bill is before the house. 23 SENATOR BRUNO: Is this bill 4804 1 before the house presently? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Yes, 3 it is, Senator Bruno. 4 SENATOR BRUNO: On the floor. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: On the 6 floor. 7 SENATOR BRUNO: And we are 8 opening debate. Thank you. 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Explanation. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Explanation. We 11 have before us a property tax relief package 12 that pertains primarily to the school property 13 taxes that people in this state pay. 14 All of us know that New York 15 State is still the highest taxed per capita in 16 all of the United States, and that's after 17 having passed the largest personal and business 18 tax cuts last year in all of the United States. 19 Why are we still highest taxed 20 per capita? Local taxes, property taxes, school 21 taxes. This package -- well thought out - 22 you'll hear from one of the major sponsors, our 23 chair of education, Senator Cook, with a 4805 1 detailed -- more detailed explanation, but it 2 gives incentives to school districts to freeze 3 the property taxes, freeze them. 4 They then get school aid based on 5 their freezing property taxes. There is a home 6 stead exemption for the middle income -- middle 7 income taxpayers. There is a circuit breaker 8 for seniors, giving them a double exemption. 9 This will take most seniors' incomes of 15-, 10 16,000 off the school property tax rolls, 11 helping some of the school budgets to pass. 12 This will provide property tax 13 relief over a four-year period. It's being 14 phased in. Ultimately, it will impact in a 15 positive way property taxes to the tune of 16 about $810 million. Those that -- in this 17 chamber, that will support this property tax 18 relief will be doing the right thing for their 19 constituency because we have learned that when 20 people are forced to pay taxes over and above 21 what they can afford, they look for ways to 22 escape and they leave the state and they do many 23 other things to avoid paying their taxes. Many 4806 1 of the people can't afford to pay the property 2 taxes that they presently pay. 3 So, Mr. President, I would urge 4 my colleagues to support what we are doing here 5 this morning because it will help all of the 6 people of this state. 7 Thank you. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 9 Senator Cook. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Would you 11 recognize Senator Cook to complete the 12 description. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 14 Senator Cook. 15 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, we 16 have confronted for a number of years in this 17 state the serious dilemma that, on one hand, the 18 property tax levy upon individual citizens has 19 reached the point first of distress, secondly of 20 hardship and currently, I believe the point of 21 disaster for many citizens in this state. 22 The stories that I hear of people 23 saying, "I pay one entire month's Social 4807 1 Security check just to pay for my school taxes" 2 is commonplace and, when you think about what 3 that means, it means that somebody has to 4 somehow parcel out throughout the rest of the 5 year that amount of money which they take out of 6 their food budget, out of what frequently are 7 extraordinarily high medical expenses, all the 8 other costs, heating fuel, all the other costs 9 that they have to live, but they're having to 10 rob from those expenses in order to keep current 11 on their school taxes. You can see how 12 important it is and how imperative it is that we 13 deal with this school tax issue. 14 On the other hand, we have an 15 increasing need to provide the resources by 16 which our education system can perform at the 17 level that it is expected to perform going into 18 the 21st Century. Regents have just put forward 19 a new set of frameworks, a new set of require 20 ments, for graduation that will be new demands 21 upon school districts for expending money in 22 order to keep current with the needs that we 23 have to provide quality education for our 4808 1 students. 2 So this bill attempts to deal 3 with both sides of this, because on one hand, it 4 offers an incentive to school districts to 5 freeze their property taxes at current levels. 6 They get a five-year plan which is approved by 7 the Commissioner of Education and, if that is 8 approved, then they are guaranteed a three 9 percent annual increase in revenues coming into 10 their school district to pay for the incremental 11 costs which they are going to incur in order to 12 provide a quality education for their students. 13 It is a balanced approach which 14 recognizes, on one hand, the hardships that are 15 created by the property tax, on the other hand 16 the need that we have to continue to improve the 17 quality of our educational programs. It is a 18 creative program that, for the first time, 19 provides into the future an incentive which will 20 tell districts that they can indeed plan on 21 where they're going to go, plan on what their 22 program will be five years hence, and that they 23 will know that there will be funds available to 4809 1 them to fulfill the financial requirements of 2 that school district. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 4 Senator Padavan, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Just waiting 6 for Senator Cook to complete his explanation and 7 I'd like him to yield to a question if he 8 would. 9 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 10 SENATOR PADAVAN: Did you finish? 11 SENATOR COOK: Well, not 12 completely yet. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 14 Senator Cook, you can continue. 15 SENATOR COOK: So the point being 16 that this plan will actually do three things: 17 Provide the tax relief; secondly, provide for 18 the ongoing program -- educational program of 19 the schools and, thirdly, provide one other 20 thing which is to give predictability so that 21 the school districts will be able to know if 22 they have an approved program five years in 23 advance that indeed those funds will be 4810 1 available to them to pay for that program. 2 Now, Senator, I'd be pleased to 3 yield. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 6 Senator Padavan. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I 8 was wondering whether you were keeping a list. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Yes, I 10 do have. 11 SENATOR GOLD: You are keeping a 12 list, and I believe I was on that list first. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: I 14 don't believe you were, sir. 15 Senator Padavan. 16 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator Cook, I 17 fully understand the need for this legislation 18 and I wonder if you would help us understand how 19 it applies in the city of New York. 20 SENATOR COOK: Senator, it 21 applies in the city of New York - 22 SENATOR PADAVAN: As you know, in 23 the city of New York, we don't have a separate 4811 1 property tax bill. We have one bill that 2 includes obviously the cost of education and, as 3 was explained, there are circuit breaker 4 benefits to senior citizens. There are other 5 benefits to individuals of certain incomes under 6 this proposal. 7 Now, in view of the fact that 8 there is no separate property tax bill or 9 assessment on homeowners and other property 10 owners in the city of New York, how would these 11 benefits kick in? 12 SENATOR COOK: Senator, Mr. 13 President. Mr. President, currently the 14 Education Department, Senator, breaks out an 15 amount from the New York City budget and the 16 other -- the other "big five", the other four of 17 the "big five", the proportion of their budgets 18 that is expended for school purposes and cal 19 culates a school tax rate even though in New 20 York City and the other cities, you're correct, 21 there is not a separate levy for that purpose, 22 but they do create a statistical rate based on 23 the appropriation that's in the City budget so 4812 1 that there is a comparable number that's 2 available for the city of New York and the other 3 -- the other four of the "big five". 4 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. Just how 5 would the freeze -- for example, if we pass the 6 freeze to enable a school district to freeze its 7 property tax assessment as it relates to schools 8 and thereby to benefit by virtue of increased 9 school aid, how would that -- I mean specific 10 ally how does that happen in the "big five" 11 including the city of New York? 12 SENATOR COOK: Well, Senator, 13 what you would -- in that case because you're 14 doing it statistically rather than actually, you 15 would back into it, because you would -- your 16 plan for expenditures would anticipate the three 17 percent annual increase that you would receive 18 in state revenues, so that then in effect you 19 would have to limit the increase of the approp 20 riation that's set aside in the City budget for 21 school purposes to no more -- that is for the 22 general fund appropriations, the operating 23 appropriations -- there are some other things 4813 1 that are outside that, but the operating 2 purposes, you would have to have an 3 appropriation which annually would not exceed 4 the three percent increase in state aid that you 5 were receiving so that, in effect, it becomes a 6 spending limitation upon the City but it does 7 give them the three percent annual increment. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 10 Senator Gold. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, thank you, 12 Mr. President. 13 Firstly, I wanted to ask some 14 questions, and I guess I can start with Senator 15 Cook if he would not mind yielding. 16 SENATOR COOK: Certainly. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 18 Senator Cook, do you yield? 19 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Cook, 21 first of all, I'm delighted. I owe, I think, 22 the same respect to Senator Bruno as Senator 23 Bruno has been giving to me and to my side 4814 1 because obviously, he has been listening because 2 we have been talking since January telling 3 everybody in this chamber how the budget, the 4 Governor's budget, is a disaster for local taxes 5 so the concept that we are now dealing with 6 something that might help local property owners 7 is something we've been excited about since 8 January, particularly in view of the horrendous 9 budget by the Governor. 10 But I'm curious about this 11 particular proposal. For example, there are 12 projections from the state Education Department 13 that indicate in Nassau County, and I know 14 Senator Skelos is very concerned about that, 15 they expect a 17 percent increase in student 16 population in the next few years. Under this 17 proposal, how would the locality deal with that 18 if they have this expansion of 17,000 additional 19 children? 20 SENATOR COOK: Senator, Mr. 21 President. Senator, growth aid is not capped so 22 that, as the district -- if the district had 23 increases in student population, they're able to 4815 1 get the additional aid to cover that growth in 2 population. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Right. So if I 4 understand you properly, Senator, that's more 5 state money; that's not local money, right? 6 SENATOR COOK: Not necessarily. 7 No, Senator, it's only that the cap would not - 8 the cap would not apply to them, but also the 9 computation of aid, the three percent increase 10 would also be there. The computation of aid is 11 based upon either a figure which is $9,000 or 12 something in that category per student related 13 to the tax levy of the district times three 14 percent, which is -- I'm losing everybody on the 15 arithmetic, but the point is that as the numbers 16 of students would increase, the amount of aid 17 would increase because the amount of aid would 18 be in that case related to the number of 19 students in the district, not to the actual flat 20 amount of the gross expenditures of the 21 district. 22 SENATOR GOLD: So in plain 23 language, if I understand you properly, Senator, 4816 1 the amount of money that this Senate would have 2 to vote for the locality would have to go up; in 3 other words, they won't be making it up on 4 property taxes. 5 SENATOR COOK: That's right. 6 SENATOR GOLD: We will increase 7 the state budget for education is what you're 8 saying. 9 SENATOR COOK: Senator, that is 10 correct and that is -- I will have to tell you 11 -- you may be aware that I've had a bill in for 12 some number of years -- in fact, we passed it in 13 this house two years ago -- which, in fact, 14 would have -- would have even made that 15 appropriation larger. We would have guaranteed 16 districts a ten percent annual increase in aid 17 in exchange for actually reducing their tax 18 levy, the point being that I am in full 19 agreement with what I think you may be -- the 20 point that I think you may be coming into; that 21 is, that education is constitutionally a state 22 responsibility, and I think we ought to be 23 moving towards state funding of that 4817 1 responsibility. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, sir. 3 The other question, if you'll yield to another 4 question, Senator. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 6 Senator Cook, do you continue to yield? 7 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 8 SENATOR GOLD: And, Senator, I 9 don't know how you and Senator Bruno are 10 breaking that up so, if I ask you a question 11 that he wants to answer, I'm certainly not 12 offended. 13 SENATOR COOK: Probably it 14 depends on which one of our spokesmen can give 15 us the right answer. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, and I don't 17 mind it at all. Let me say, for the record, I 18 think Lackman is brilliant; that's why he just 19 got elected. 20 SENATOR COOK: So is Bob Hotz. 21 SENATOR GOLD: At any rate, in 22 the fiscal year that we are about to enter, 23 '96-97, can you tell me what the cost of this 4818 1 bill will be? 2 SENATOR COOK: There's no cost, 3 Senator, because the first requirement is that 4 the school district submit to the Department - 5 well, I beg your pardon. Let me -- let me 6 rescind that for a moment. There's no cost in 7 the -- in the capping portion of it, because 8 they have to submit this year during the 9 oncoming school year a five-year plan, which 10 would click in the year after that, so that 11 would have to be assumed in future budgets. 12 There is, however, on the senior 13 citizens -- the homestead exemption, the 14 so-called circuit breaker, that does begin to 15 click in and there is some impact on that. 20 16 million, I'm told, is the estimated cost of 17 that. 18 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Now, 19 the 20 million, Senator, is it the circuit 20 breaker portion? 21 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 22 SENATOR GOLD: And the circuit 23 breaker, is that what we were talking about 4819 1 earlier that -- withdrawn. That's been a 2 horror. In this household credit, we're told 3 that it helps senior citizens, this homestead. 4 Now, the way I take a look at it, the income has 5 to be under 17,500, isn't that correct? 6 MR. HOTZ: To get the maximum. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, 8 wouldn't you say there's an awful lot of seniors 9 out there that have nothing other than Social 10 Security but doesn't Social Security give them 11 more than that? 12 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I 13 appreciate that you want to talk so everybody 14 over there can hear you, but I can't hear you 15 when you turn your back. 16 SENATOR GOLD: I apologize, 17 Senator. 18 It seems to me when we talk about 19 seventeen five, when we're talking about senior 20 citizens even on Social Security, don't we have 21 an awful lot that are disqualified at that 22 exemption? 23 SENATOR COOK: Senator, the 4820 1 17,000 is the current homestead exemption which 2 we currently have on the books in New York State 3 and we basically are doubling it. 4 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Now, 5 Senator, the -- getting back to where I was a 6 moment ago, on the basic issue of freezing local 7 property taxes, as you explained it and as I 8 understand it, there is no cost in this fiscal 9 year because they're going to do these 10 calculations and it kicks in a year from now. 11 MR. HOTZ: If they opt in. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 13 Well, Senator, then this is my question. My 14 understanding is at the last budget meeting with 15 the Governor, each side was asked to give its 16 estimates as to what the shortages were or what 17 was needed in the various categories and in the 18 education field, I understand that the number 19 was 450 million; I think your side said 410 or 20 415 million. 21 MR. HOTZ: That included our 20 22 million circuit breaker. 23 SENATOR GOLD: So are you telling 4821 1 us today, Senator Cook, that in this fiscal 2 year, your side stands now ready to increase the 3 budget -- the Governor's budget by at least $410 4 million so that at least for this year we're 5 giving no money for local property tax support 6 in this bill and in this bill we will cover this 7 area of the school aid formula. 8 SENATOR COOK: Senator, it's my 9 understanding, and I don't sit at the table 10 where Senator Connor sits as part of those 11 conversations, but we have identified about $410 12 million of restorations which we think are 13 necessary in order to continue existing educa 14 tional programs and to cover the $20 million 15 that you were referring to in the -- in the 16 senior citizen exemption. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Right. 18 SENATOR COOK: And that is, in 19 fact, I believe a position which Senator Bruno 20 is pursuing. I don't presume to speak for him. 21 But I believe that that is the announced 22 position of this Conference, yes. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, 4822 1 yeah. Well, then, maybe Senator Bruno wants to 2 answer that question. 3 Mr. President, will Senator Bruno 4 yield? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 6 Senator Bruno, do you yield? 7 SENATOR BRUNO: That depends on 8 the question, Mr. President. Can you restate 9 it? 10 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, I'm be glad 11 to. 12 Senator Bruno, according to 13 Senator Cook, and I view him to be accurate, 14 there is no money in this bill that is going to 15 help any localities that may have to increase 16 local property taxes as a result of this year's 17 Pataki budget, and as I indicated on a prior 18 occasion, if the Pataki budget were to pass, for 19 example, Albany County which is now at about 8.6 20 percent increase would go up to over 10 - 21 excuse me, over 12 percent increase, so 22 obviously the Pataki budget, that would in fact 23 be mandated local property tax increases, and 4823 1 your bill wouldn't help this year. 2 So my question, Senator, is by 3 putting the bill out in this way and not 4 granting any money this year, are you saying 5 that it is the position of you and your 6 Conference that you are asking for additional 7 spending this year in the budget of some 410 or 8 more million dollars to make up the educational 9 deficit? 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you, 11 Senator Gold. 12 SENATOR GOLD: You're welcome, 13 sir. 14 SENATOR BRUNO: I now understand 15 the question. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Me too. 17 SENATOR BRUNO: And it was a long 18 question. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Very long. 20 SENATOR BRUNO: And I will try 21 and give you a short answer. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Very short. 23 SENATOR BRUNO: And the answer, 4824 1 and I'm pleased and thank Senator Gold, Mr. 2 President, on my behalf for asking this 3 question, because we are going to take the lead 4 in restoring some of the cuts, maybe all the 5 cuts, that the Governor proposed in his budget. 6 That is part of the conversations we are having 7 with the Speaker and with the Governor about the 8 restoration, just the restoration that you are 9 describing, Senator, and it will impact in a 10 positive way school aid, the school year over 11 $500 million. That's what's on the table. 12 That's what we expect we will get agreement on 13 and I, again, Mr. President, thank Senator Gold 14 for asking the question. I hope he finds my 15 answer acceptable. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 18 Senator Gold. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Would my very 20 articulate and distinguished leader yield to 21 another question. 22 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Senator. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 4825 1 Senator Bruno, do you yield? Senator Gold is not 2 happy with his answer. 3 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. 4 SENATOR GOLD: On a point of 5 order, Mr. President. I loved it. 6 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. -- Mr. 8 President, Senator Bruno, I don't have a 9 dictionary handy, but I listened to what you 10 said, and I just need one clarification. You 11 said that in education and some other areas that 12 you are hoping to lead the fight for 13 restorations. Restorations, by definition, that 14 means spending, doesn't it? 15 SENATOR BRUNO: M-m h-m-m, yes. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Spending. Your 17 Conference wants to spend more than the 18 Governor, is that correct? 19 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 21 Senator Bruno. 22 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, our 23 Conference wants to restore school aid so that 4826 1 we can do all the good things that are important 2 to our constituencies, respectively, yes. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, like 4 spending. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: There are 6 appropriate places to spend money. That's a 7 very handsome tie you have, Senator. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 9 SENATOR BRUNO: And that was an 10 appropriate place to spend some money, and 11 school aid restorations are appropriate places 12 to spend money. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, I 14 want to say that your tie is very nice. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you. 16 SENATOR GOLD: But I can't afford 17 that spending, so that's why I have this tie. 18 If the distinguished Majority 19 Leader would yield to another question. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 21 Senator Bruno, do you continue to yield? 22 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 23 President. 4827 1 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 2 Thank you, Senator Bruno, and I appreciate your 3 clarifying that your Conference was spending 4 more than the Governor would propose. 5 There's a question I have 6 though. In each of the districts there are 7 problems and educationally related problems and 8 under your bill, what do you do with your tax 9 free situation? If a district has needs, they 10 have real needs to improve either services or 11 facilities or they have to do something to raise 12 money to provide a need. Under your bill, will 13 they lose their advantage because they may have 14 to raise taxes to provide for a need? 15 SENATOR BRUNO: This will -- most 16 of this will be at local option so that those of 17 us that believe in government closest to the 18 people will allow that government elected by 19 their -- our respective constituencies to make 20 those judgments, Senator, so that we wouldn't be 21 mandating that they give this relief in most of 22 the areas, so those judgments will be made and 23 it's very perceptive of you to make that 4828 1 observation and that was all considered in the 2 drafting of this legislation. 3 Senator Ken LaValle has been the 4 mastermind, along with Senator Cook and many of 5 the others in this chamber potentially on both 6 sides of the aisle, and in their wisdom over the 7 years they have constructed a package that's 8 before you and it wasn't done lightly. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, Mr. 10 President, if the Senator will yield to a 11 question. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 13 Senator Bruno, do you continue to yield? 14 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr. 15 President. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, it's the 17 same question. I heard the answer and it -- and 18 you speak very, very well, and it's a shame 19 you're not a lawyer, but we went through that 20 yesterday. The point I'm getting at, though, is 21 that isn't it a fact that, if a district has to 22 make this local determination and have 23 additional spending because of deterioration or 4829 1 because of increased needs or one thing or 2 another, that they could be, in order to be 3 servicing their students properly, be knocking 4 themselves out of the formula? 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator Gold, I 6 apologize for not being a little more explicit 7 in answering your question. Part of the 8 proposal and the recommendation that we make 9 through this legislation is that a school 10 district put together a five-year plan, and if 11 they find a need because they freeze property 12 taxes, well, then they will get, for freezing, 13 to help fill their needs, state aid up to the 14 inflation level to be determined by the indexes 15 so they would get state aid to help meet some of 16 their increased expenses, and the intent, of 17 course, is to create responsibility on the part 18 of school districts so that they manage their 19 affairs and, when we talk about spending, we 20 talk about appropriate spending. We talk about 21 priorities in spending and we recognize that 22 educating young people is a priority of our 23 Conference and I believe, Senator, of your 4830 1 Conference, and it is of the Speaker's, and all 2 of this has been stated. 3 I think that's probably the 4 Governor calling you. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, said he 6 wasn't happy with your explanation. 7 SENATOR BRUNO: Yeah. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 9 President. On the bill. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 11 Senator Gold, on the bill. 12 SENATOR GOLD: First of all, 13 Senator Bruno, I must tell you that we should 14 always be working together as you have 15 indicated, and I consider that the newly found 16 concern of your party with local property taxes 17 after we've been talking about it for four 18 months, indicating that we are now starting to 19 work together and that you are listening. 20 I also was very, very pleased to 21 hear from you that you are unhappy with the 22 Governor's budget. I surmised you were unhappy 23 with the Governor's budget when you didn't put 4831 1 it out for a vote earlier this year or even put 2 out your own version earlier this year as you 3 did last year. Last year, with great pride, you 4 put out a budget and you challenged the Speaker 5 to do the same. This year you don't do that, 6 and I understand why. The Governor's budget 7 would be a disaster, and your party apparently 8 now, the Senate Republicans, realize that; and 9 while we had a bill before us a couple days ago 10 that wanted to cut taxes by 80 million and while 11 this side of the aisle agrees with the concept 12 of tax cuts but had different cuts in mind, the 13 fact of the matter is that when the budget 14 process is over, your party will be able to put 15 out that major press release which says that you 16 want to spend more money than the Governor and 17 that spending in the ultimate budget that we 18 pass is something which is now apparently a part 19 of the Republican platform in this house. 20 I don't know as a technical 21 matter, Senator Bruno, whether or not the bill 22 that you have before us is going to help in the 23 long run. I know that from the point of view of 4832 1 many people on this side of the aisle, we feel 2 that property taxes are, in fact, devastating. 3 I think it's interesting that Senator Bruno said 4 today something we have been saying for four 5 months, and that is if New York State is the tax 6 leader, it is the tax leader because of the 7 local property taxes and local taxes and unfor 8 tunately, for the people many of that -- those 9 taxes come from areas controlled by local 10 Republicans, so this is perhaps some kind of an 11 acknowledgement from our distinguished president 12 of the Senate Pro Tem that his party has some 13 responsibility and together with us, we will try 14 to see to it that local property taxes do not in 15 the future drive our citizens to disaster. 16 But the most important part of 17 today's conversation is not this bill which, by 18 the way, I personally intend to vote for because 19 maybe it will help, but the most important part 20 of today's conversation is the fact that we are 21 going to recognize that the block grant program, 22 that the budget as presented by Governor Pataki, 23 would unquestionably drive up local property 4833 1 taxes and the only way that we can save our 2 localities is to do what Senator Bruno 3 apparently is proposing, spend. 4 So, Senator Bruno, when you come 5 before us with the proposal to help education by 6 proposing the Republican spending plan, I'm 7 going to look at that very closely. 8 Thank you. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 10 Senator LaValle. 11 We have a list. Senator LaValle 12 is next. 13 SENATOR LAVALLE: Thank you, Mr. 14 President. 15 I would like to begin my remarks 16 with some commendations because I think that 17 that is important. First, I think Senator Bruno 18 deserves to be commended for his diligence. His 19 efforts, Senator Gold, and others, began with a 20 press conference in November, November of 1995, 21 in which Senator Bruno articulated a proposal. 22 That proposal is in a 34-page bill before us 23 today. 4834 1 Senator Cook should be commended 2 as chairman of Education, to be focused on this 3 issue, and to have allowed members in this 4 house, the Majority, to work with him in 5 bringing this to fruition. 6 Our Secretary of the Finance 7 Committee, Abe Lackman, Jeff Lovell, and Bob 8 Hotz, should be commended in working with the 9 members in this house to bring about the 10 specifics of this proposal. 11 There has not been a proposal 12 such as this as comprehensive, and the reforms 13 that are articulated here and the philosophy, in 14 probably two decades. I say a change in 15 philosophy because heretofore we used one 16 strategy to deal with property tax reform and 17 monies for programs for education, and that 18 mechanism has been solely the state aid formula, 19 but that we have talked and debated, have worked 20 on during the budget deliberations. 21 Today, we establish a two-pillar 22 philosophy. One of the pillars is yet to be 23 developed as was articulated by our Majority 4835 1 Leader, and that is the state aid proposal that 2 will deal primarily, although not in its 3 entirety, but primarily dealing with the 4 programmatic side of the school district budget 5 -- how much money do we have to provide 6 services to our students -- and hopefully, some 7 districts will have sufficient dollars to 8 provide tax stabilization. 9 Today, we unveil a second pillar, 10 and that second pillar has sub-parts to it and 11 that's what makes this proposal a measure of 12 reform. 13 In the first instance, it says to 14 our citizens that they should be more involved 15 in the education process, by their vote, by 16 their participation in developing a school 17 district budget. It says that that budget 18 should be presented to all the voters in the 19 district in plain language in a form that the 20 Commissioner will be involved in so that our 21 citizens can understand what is going -- what 22 expenditures are going for what programs in the 23 school budget. 4836 1 It will allow the presentation of 2 that budget for the first time to be presented 3 in three different parts, programmatic part, the 4 instructional services, the administrative 5 budget, as defined by the legislation, and 6 thirdly the capital budget. The voters will be 7 able to see what the effect will be on the tax 8 levy and what each portion of that budget has in 9 terms of a tax -- a tax rate, and how that part 10 of the budget would be reflected in the tax 11 rate. So we involve the voters in trying to 12 participate in the process. 13 The second part has been 14 discussed through the questions that Senator 15 Gold asked of Senator Cook in terms of the tax 16 stabilization, to allow the school districts to 17 make a decision whether there are sufficient in 18 centives to stabilize their tax rate. 19 The third part of the bill says, 20 How do people pay for that tax once it's 21 established? And so much discussion was -- was 22 made in terms of the homestead exemption and 23 what we are doing for the first time is creating 4837 1 a state portion of the homestead exemption that 2 many of our localities, towns, counties and 3 local school districts already participate in. 4 We add to this a portion that 5 will affect all of our taxpayers who use an 6 itemized tax form to pay their state taxes by 7 taking a double school tax deduction and, 8 thirdly, as has been discussed, a circuit 9 breaker program that really goes to the heart of 10 our middle income taxpayers, those with incomes 11 of 75,000 or less, that would really pay a 12 percentage of their income of property taxes, 13 and then the state would help them. 14 What we are doing in this 15 proposal is something that people have talked 16 about for years and years in moving and getting 17 the state more involved in sharing education and 18 helping people pay some of the onerous property 19 taxes that are levied locally, and so this 20 measure has been put together with proposals and 21 some of you may look at some of the ideas over a 22 number of years in separate bills and some of 23 those proposals we have passed. 4838 1 So today really is a great day 2 for this house with the leadership of Senator 3 Bruno, Senator Cook, in putting this proposal 4 together, because I think it moves us into the 5 next millenium at the right juncture at the 6 right time. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Senator Dollinger. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 10 President. 11 SENATOR STAVISKY: Is there a 12 list there? 13 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, there 14 is, Senator Stavisky, and you are after Senator 15 Dollinger. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 17 President, who would answer questions on behalf 18 of the bill? Senator Bruno, I note, is not in 19 the house. Perhaps Senator Cook? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: I 21 believe Senator Cook will answer your questions, 22 sir. 23 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 4839 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I'm 2 trying to understand this bill along the lines 3 that have been discussed about how significant 4 and important this proposition is. 5 One of the things that's raised 6 in this bill is the Consumer Price Index. 7 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: A commonly 9 used tool to try to gauge the overall 10 inflationary effect on the economy and, as I 11 understand it, this bill says that any budget 12 increase more than CPI has to have the support 13 of two-thirds of the trustees of the school 14 board before it can go on. Is there any 15 requirement in this bill that a certain 16 percentage of the voters have to approve it? 17 SENATOR COOK: No. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 19 through you, Mr. President if Senator Cook will 20 yield to a question, the Consumer Price Index I 21 assume that the -- what we'd be looking for is 22 an effect of the inflation in the state of New 23 York, correct? 4840 1 SENATOR COOK: It's -- Senator, 2 it is the Consumer Price Index for the New York 3 Northern New Jersey region. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My question 5 is, Mr. President, what does New Jersey and the 6 costs associated in New Jersey have to do with 7 education or price increases in the state of New 8 York? 9 SENATOR COOK: Senator, the point 10 was to find a standardized number that was 11 generally accepted. That number happens to be 12 the United States Department of Labor CPI number 13 that they have been developing and publishing 14 for years. It's a generally accepted number in 15 a whole variety of things that are done in 16 commerce and in government and, therefore, it's, 17 I would say, a generally accepted standard. 18 That's why it was used. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But again 20 through you, Mr. President, including New Jersey 21 in the calculation of the CPI and what effect it 22 has on this state, including Plattsburgh -- a 23 long ways away from New Jersey; Rochester, a 4841 1 long ways away from New Jersey -- could you tell 2 me what relevance prices in New Jersey have in 3 being used in a CPI which affects our local 4 school district? 5 SENATOR COOK: Senator -- Mr. 6 President. Senator, you are a good lawyer. You 7 know when something you're saying is 8 disingenuous. The point is that we adapt to the 9 standard. It could have been the standard that 10 was called the Northeastern United States 11 standard. It could have been -- we do it all 12 the time. 13 The point is we did not attempt 14 to put in a whole new bureaucracy that would 15 establish what the CPI would be within the 16 geographic boundaries of the state of New York 17 which might be one-tenth or one-hundredth of a 18 percent different from the -- from the average 19 that is already on record and, furthermore, we 20 can use a standard that's established by an 21 authority that's outside New York so it cannot 22 be manipulated by anyone within the state of New 23 York, and that's really what it does. It gives 4842 1 the bill credibility because it's a generally 2 accepted standard. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 4 you, Mr. President, I guess I'm just astounded 5 that when it comes to figuring out what the 6 effect is in New York, we use a standard that 7 includes New Jersey and is developed by another 8 government, the federal government. It's not 9 even one we develop ourselves, so we're going to 10 rely on the federal government to do the 11 calculation and we're going to allow them to use 12 New Jersey numbers when that's the most critical 13 thing in this bill, isn't it, because if it sets 14 new standards, if it exceeds a Consumer Price 15 Index that includes New Jersey and is devised by 16 the federal government. 17 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Senator Cook. 20 SENATOR COOK: Senator, we are 21 more than once accused in this Capitol of 22 manipulating numbers and figures and standards, 23 to fit whatever necessity is before us. The 4843 1 other -- the other alternative is to find 2 national standards. Now, we do this in a whole 3 variety of areas -- transportation. We use the 4 AASHTO standards, which are national standards, 5 and they're used because they are -- they are 6 objective, they're generally accepted numbers. 7 Why we use the federal number is 8 because it cannot be manipulated according to 9 whatever whim anyone in this Capitol might 10 have. It is a solid number. If we have -- if 11 we put into statute some way of calculating 12 those figures within the state of New York, I 13 would have to confess it would be subject to 14 manipulation, and we really don't want that to 15 happen. We want a standard that is generally 16 accepted, and that's why it's in the bill. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Through, 18 Mr. President, if Senator Cook will yield to 19 another question. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Senator Cook, do you continue to yield? 22 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: All of the 4844 1 provisions in this bill that deal with the form 2 of the budget that the school district would 3 present, is there anything in current law in 4 this state that prohibits them from doing that 5 by themselves? 6 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, 7 there is nothing in current law that prohibits 8 them from doing it. I think Senator LaValle, in 9 his presentation, however, touched the point and 10 that is that school budgets are to some people 11 and many people, perhaps a very complex thing. 12 They often have difficulty understanding what it 13 is that they're actually being asked to vote 14 upon. This bill simply provides that, when that 15 option is placed before them to vote on a 16 budget, that it has to be presented in such a 17 way that they know exactly what questions 18 they're being asked. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 20 you, Mr. President, if Senator Cook will yield. 21 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Are you 23 suggesting, Senator, that the school districts 4845 1 in your district don't put properly identified, 2 properly prepared, easily understandable budgets 3 before their voters, because I've got news for 4 you, Senator. I represent probably seven school 5 districts and in every single one of them, I 6 think they do an exemplary job of breaking down 7 the budget in common plain language in putting 8 the proposals before the voters, in mailing to 9 the voters before the election two or three 10 times to explain to them what the proposition is 11 all about, and I guess my question is, is this 12 needed in your district because it clearly isn't 13 needed in mine? I just want to find out where 14 it's needed. 15 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President - 16 Mr. President, Senator. You're very fortunate. 17 I am not going to attribute any bad motives to 18 anyone, but I will have to tell you that some of 19 the information that is distributed by school 20 districts is less than clear in terms of what it 21 really does, that many of the issues that are - 22 frankly arise within school districts could be 23 avoided if, in the first instance, the material 4846 1 that was distributed to the voters was more 2 clear in exactly what it was trying to do. 3 So I don't see this as punitive. 4 I see this as something that is of good 5 information. We have clear language laws that 6 we have put in place around here for years 7 providing that various kinds of things have to 8 be written in plain language. This does nothing 9 more than that. It's to say that, when you put 10 a proposal out before the public, you have to do 11 it in a manner in which it is easily 12 understood. 13 Now, if -- let us assume that 14 with all good motives, a school administrator 15 who is not, by his profession, necessarily a 16 public relations person, he may be able to write 17 a budget in jargon that is totally 18 understandable to the BOCES commissioner, 19 superintendent, totally understandable to the 20 Department of Education, totally understandable 21 with his explanation to the school board but 22 when it goes out to the voters, it is jargon 23 that they simply do not comprehend. 4847 1 The point of this would be that 2 the Commissioner would design for the school 3 districts a means in which they would be 4 presenting their budget to the voters so that 5 hopefully it would be comparable from one 6 district to another so that someone who lives in 7 School District A looks at their budget and when 8 they try to compare it to School District B or 9 School District C, they'll know that this 10 particular item means a particular thing in 11 their district, so that those comparisons are 12 accurate and there won't be people jumping to 13 conclusions because they see things that they 14 think mean one thing and actually mean something 15 else. 16 It is a matter of putting in 17 formation out in an understandable form so that, 18 when voters vote, it will be an informed vote 19 based upon the statewide understandings and it's 20 -- if you will, Senator, not unlike the CPI, 21 it's a matter of trying to develop common 22 understandings so that when people look at 23 something, they accurately know what they're 4848 1 voting on. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 3 you, Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Senator Cook, do you continue to yield? 6 SENATOR COOK: Yes, I will. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 8 you, Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Senator Cook, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR COOK: Yes, I will. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The types of 13 itemization and information that you would 14 request in school budgets, is that provided for 15 the New York State budget, the $65 billion that 16 we spend every year? 17 I know Senator Leichter and 18 others over here have asked for itemized budget, 19 more budget detail, just the same kinds of good 20 government things that you for some reason think 21 are not present in local school districts, yet 22 every time, I think, we have brought up those 23 amendments for the last five years, four years 4849 1 that I have been here, I don't know that anybody 2 on the other side has voted for those to apply 3 to us. 4 My question is, why? If it's 5 supposedly so good for local school districts, 6 why is it such a bad thing here? 7 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 8 Senator, I'm not sure exactly 9 what kinds of additional stipends you would 10 receive, but I know you receive $57,500 in base 11 salary, plus some kind of an additional stipend; 12 in other words, you are paid to have the 13 analytical ability to deal with complex issues. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My critics 15 don't suggest that I do. 16 SENATOR COOK: There are many 17 citizens out there who don't receive that kind 18 of salary and who are nevertheless expected to 19 make complex decisions. I think it's incumbent 20 upon us to provide them with as clear 21 information in as simplest forms as we can do it 22 and not expect them to spend the same time that 23 you or I spend trying to understand these issues 4850 1 given the kind of salaries we receive. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. Just 3 one other question in another area, Mr. 4 President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Senator Cook, do you continue to yield? 7 SENATOR COOK: (Indicating 8 affirmatively.) 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I am 10 intrigued about the divvying up of the budget 11 into the administrative, the programmatic and 12 the capital areas. What happens if the 13 administrative budget -- which, of course, 14 includes very sensitive things, salaries of 15 school superintendents, other items that I'm 16 sure voters who feel a certain angst about 17 school taxes may look at those numbers and say, 18 "I don't want to pay those bills." What 19 happens if those budgets are defeated? So you 20 put all three of them up, the program passes, 21 the capital passes. What happens to the 22 administrative budget? 23 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, as 4851 1 I understand it, there are certain mandated 2 obligations which a district has, and obviously 3 direct supervision is one of them. 4 However, I would tell you that 5 our colleague from Westchester County, 6 Assemblyman Tocci, has repeatedly talked about a 7 particular school district which has spent an 8 inordinate amount of money to hire an outside 9 firm, a consulting firm, which they have 10 utilized for certain purposes within the 11 district, and it's his concern that that 12 district not be permitted to spend that kind of 13 money without voter approval. That is really 14 where we're at. 15 It is not the necessary, ongoing 16 expenses of the district which are already part 17 of the austerity item, but it would be those 18 other kinds, if you will, of optional services 19 that a district may decide for whatever reason 20 to purchase outside. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 22 you, Mr. President just so I understand it. If 23 the administrative budget doesn't pass, my 4852 1 understanding is that they can have a second 2 crack at the administrative budget. Is that 3 correct? 4 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 5 Senator, that's true of any portion of the 6 budget, yes. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And then the 8 third portion, if they get 100 voters or 10 9 percent of the people who voted, they can have a 10 third crack at it. Is that correct? What 11 happens if it fails all three times? 12 SENATOR COOK: Senator, the 13 austerity requirements go in place. The 14 district obviously has to be able to continue 15 its mandated services, so it obviously has to 16 have a superintendent, but those other kinds of 17 services that they may be contracting for that 18 would be outside the necessary administrative 19 expenses would not -- they would not be 20 permitted to expend. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 22 you, Mr. President. 23 I'm not sure I understand. I 4853 1 know, Senator Cook, you've been in charge of the 2 Education Committee, been the chairman of the 3 committee. I'm not on the committee, but what 4 other nonausterity expenditures would be 5 included in the administrative portion that 6 would be subject to voter approval? 7 SENATOR COOK: Senator, the very 8 point that I just mentioned, hiring of 9 consultants, for example, of outside firms for 10 whatever purpose they were being hired would not 11 be covered under that. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. On the 13 bill, Mr. President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: On 15 the bill, Senator Dollinger. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 17 President. The reason why I'm concerned about 18 the CPI index -- and I understand Senator Cook's 19 point. He says that the CPI could be subject to 20 manipulation if we did it. That doesn't accept 21 the fact that the federal government could, of 22 course, manipulate the CPI to its own device. 23 And, number 2, they picked the 4854 1 urban CPI, not the all consumers CPI. Why would 2 they pick the urban CPI when so much of 3 everything upstate, in your district, Senator, 4 in my district, I believe, is not included in 5 the urban CPI? 6 And, for some reason, we've 7 decided to pick and include New Jersey which 8 might be wonderful for certain things, but it 9 seems to me that the -- all the laudatory 10 comments that have been made about this bill as 11 being a good thing for New York State, we can 12 develop our own CPI. We don't need New Jersey 13 and its market basket of items, including gas 14 prices in New Jersey, to start affecting the CPI 15 and become a critical threshold for when we 16 trigger larger super majority votes in our 17 school districts. 18 I don't think that, frankly, 19 makes any sense, and I don't know who was 20 thinking about this, but to include an urban CPI 21 which encompasses New Jersey really makes me 22 wonder about who was thinking about this whole 23 idea of reform, and New York's education system 4855 1 is now dependent upon who buys gasoline, who 2 buys eggs, who buys milk, in the state of New 3 Jersey. 4 Also I think that based on my 5 reading of this proposal, it has a very cynical 6 view of local school boards which I don't quite 7 understand. I know there has been a lot of 8 controversy in education. I understand that the 9 voters in this state across the state are 10 rightly concerned about what is going on in our 11 educational system to prepare our children for 12 the future. But what this bill has is an 13 extremely cynical view of what they do. It 14 suggests all those voters who go in to vote on 15 school budgets aren't well-informed. I don't 16 have any evidence of that, Senator. 17 I know that everybody complains 18 about paying school taxes, but I have nobody who 19 comes up to me and says, "I don't understand 20 what's on the budget; I don't understand what 21 the numbers are; I can't understand; they want 22 to raise my property taxes 3 percent, I can't 23 understand it." All the information is 4856 1 available. Every school district that I deal 2 with floods your mailbox with information about 3 the school budget. Spend some time and read 4 it. We don't need this. 5 I don't know what happens in your 6 district or in all the other 37 districts that 7 are represented by members on the other side of 8 the aisle, but you must think that your school 9 boards are defrauding the voters because, 10 obviously, you are suggesting that they are not 11 doing it right. I don't understand that. 12 Maybe I've got to go visit some 13 other school districts in Long Island or up in 14 the Metropolitan New York area and find out how 15 they have been flimflamming these voters all the 16 time, because we now suggest that we have to 17 come up with -- tell them how they are going to 18 present their budget to their voters to which 19 they are completely accountable. 20 I would suggest, Senator Cook, 21 that if any school board is flimflamming your 22 voters and not giving them sufficient 23 information, those voters have the absolute 4857 1 power, the one power we can't take away, the one 2 power I respect, vote them out of office. Throw 3 them out. Tell the next school board to 4 redesign the whole budget, do it a better way, 5 make it more informed. 6 What they don't need are people 7 way, way in Albany, in the little tower that we 8 work in and in traveling in a little corridor of 9 the LOB, to sit down and say, "This is the right 10 thing for the Greece Central School District. 11 We know better than you do how to educate your 12 voters. We know better than you do in the town 13 of Brighton how to educate your voters. We know 14 better than you do in the town of Pittsford how 15 to educate your voters." Seems to me that 16 doesn't make any sense at all for us to be 17 telling them what to do. 18 I said it before. I will say it 19 again. I think this has lots of mandates, and 20 I'm going to vote in favor of this. I'm not 21 against property tax cuts, but, once again, I 22 think we come back to the same image that I drew 23 last time. Dumbo is jumping off the top of the 4858 1 tower. Fly, Dumbo, fly, and that elephant is 2 just flying around, flying around. It's all 3 fantasy. It's a nice wonderful thing to be able 4 to put in your newsletters, to be able to shoot 5 for television commercials in the fall, to stand 6 up and do a press release and say, "We've saved 7 property taxpayers in New York; we know better 8 than local school boards; we know better how to 9 do it." We somehow have been given this great 10 gift of insight on how to reform public 11 education and how to reform the budget process. 12 You got me. I am willing to do 13 it. I'm willing to stand by and say just like 14 the magpies did in "Dumbo, the Flying Elephant," 15 I think I will have seen everything when I see 16 an elephant fly. 17 I will be voting yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 19 Senator Stavisky. 20 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator Cook 21 yield for a question or two? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 23 Senator Cook, do you yield? 4859 1 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 2 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator Cook, 3 I see as a fiscal note that when the plan takes 4 effect in the future that there will be a $400 5 million price tag. Am I correct? Who will be 6 paying that? 7 SENATOR COOK: Senator, that will 8 be part of the general state revenues. 9 SENATOR STAVISKY: That's not 10 necessarily money that we presently have or we 11 foresee in the existing state revenue stream. 12 SENATOR COOK: Senator, as you 13 probably are aware, we have a pretty consistent 14 growth in revenues in New York State over a 15 period of years which is generally in the 16 neighborhood of a billion to a billion and a 17 quarter dollars, and we don't see all that 18 revenue all the time because there are also a 19 whole variety of entitlement programs in the 20 state which at the same time are driving up our 21 expenditure requirements. 22 The anticipation is, however, 23 that we expect to have some fiscal discipline in 4860 1 this state that is going to make available to us 2 some funds for purposes which we currently don't 3 have money available -- frankly, property tax 4 relief which I would like to -- the bill I 5 presented would be $600 million a year not $400 6 million. But, Senator, I believe it can be 7 done. I believe the requirement of this 8 Legislature is to place that mandate on the 9 books. 10 You have talked -- we've heard 11 Senator Gold talk about the Governor's budget. 12 If we have it, there as a statutory 13 responsibility that in future years that money 14 is going to have to be provided in the 15 Governor's budget, then we won't have to argue 16 about it because it will be an entitlement 17 that's there to go to the school districts, and 18 I think that is one of the real genius of this 19 bill is that because, for the first time, we're 20 starting to say that that school aid does become 21 in the nature of an entitlement. 22 SENATOR STAVISKY: But if the 23 optimistic projection of revenue for future 4861 1 years is not there, won't there be, by 2 necessity, an increase in state taxes? 3 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, I 4 think we have to deal with that in the same 5 manner we deal with other kinds of expenditures 6 in other years. We have seen years in which we 7 have been confronted with tremendous proposed 8 increases in social programs. We have seen 9 increases in dealing with the correctional 10 system. We have seen increases in dealing with 11 mental health problems. You name it, we always 12 have that quandary of how do we deal with 13 increased costs on one side and with whatever 14 revenues we have on the other. 15 The problem, Senator, as you 16 readily can recognize is that all too often 17 school aid and school funding has been a sort of 18 end product of what was left over when all these 19 other concerns were paid for; and for the first 20 time, we have in this bill a requirement that 21 puts education up there at the top of the list 22 along with these other state requirements, and I 23 think that's a real -- I think we should look 4862 1 upon that not as a deficit in the bill but, 2 indeed, a real plus. 3 SENATOR STAVISKY: I agree with 4 you, Senator Cook, that education should be a 5 number one state priority. But I think the 6 members in voting for this piece of legislation 7 should be aware of the fact and the possibility 8 that if the revenue is not as optimistic as we 9 projected, if the receipts are not as optimistic 10 as we projected, then what is being proposed 11 today in this bill -- and your members should be 12 aware of it -- that this may be a tax increase 13 bill that we are putting in place, and I think 14 you should label it as such. 15 This may be a bill to increase 16 state taxes, and if you understand that and are 17 willing to vote with it under those ground 18 rules, then there will be no dispute. But 19 please don't pretend that the revenue will be 20 there. The revenue is wish money, and this 21 could be a tax increase bill, and you bear the 22 responsibility for that increase in taxes if it 23 has to come to pass. 4863 1 Let me speak about some other 2 aspects of the bill. I am not certain that I am 3 satisfied with the manner in which aid to cities 4 such as Syracuse, and Rochester and Buffalo and 5 Yonkers and New York City, has been explained 6 and the benefits that will accrue. Because in 7 those cities, which are fiscally dependent 8 school districts, they pass through a municipal 9 budgetary process, and revenue from various 10 sources is used by the municipality, sometimes 11 the property tax, but sometimes the sales tax 12 which also is regressive, and, yes, there even 13 are taxes such as income taxes, local income 14 taxes and fees and other miscellaneous sources 15 of revenue. There is no relief for the 16 overburdened taxpayer who may, through an 17 accumulation of municipal taxes, be forced to 18 pay an extremely high percentage of that 19 person's income for the combination of municipal 20 taxes which when taken together might be greater 21 than another taxpayer's burden with regard to 22 property taxes alone. 23 Then, there is the problem of 4864 1 block grants, block grants which may be 2 consolidating a whole host of programs that are 3 needed. Educational disadvantage is not dealt 4 with in this bill. Increases in school 5 enrollment is really not dealt with in this 6 bill. When you consolidate into block grants a 7 whole host of programs that have been separately 8 funded, for students with reading disability, 9 students for whom English may not be the primary 10 language but who are moving into districts all 11 over the state -- they are no longer a problem 12 that affects the City of New York. Educational 13 disadvantage has become very democratic. It's 14 affecting the suburbs. It's affecting the 15 communities surrounding the large cities, and 16 many of you represent those areas. If now, 17 squeezed into a shoe, you have no longer five 18 toes but you have ten toes and the size of the 19 shoe has not become any larger, you will be 20 facing some of the consequences of the movement 21 to block grants which are a very easy way of 22 promising local self determination. But when 23 there is less money, consolidation into block 4865 1 grants does not help any of the school 2 districts, especially if the population soars 3 and especially as the number of children who are 4 suffering from educational disadvantage of 5 various kinds continue to move into your 6 districts as well as maybe moving into my 7 district. 8 And so I suggest to you that this 9 bill promises a panacea which may not 10 necessarily be real and, therefore, be prepared 11 to find that the local school districts will be 12 suffering with this kind of approach that may 13 not necessarily have one shoe fitting all feet 14 that may be stuffed into it. I think that if 15 you're voting for this, be prepared to have it 16 explained in your districts that this is 17 possibly a higher tax bill where you will be 18 taxing taxpayers at the state level to take care 19 of some of these problems where you are 20 promising real property tax relief. 21 And with that understanding, we 22 all are on the same wave length and we all can 23 come together to seek a better way of financing 4866 1 education and paying for school costs, but they 2 are not necessarily going to get any smaller 3 simply because we're calling for a tax freeze on 4 the real property tax. There are many other 5 expenditures that this bill does not address, 6 and I'm prepared to work with you. We all are 7 prepared to work with each other in dealing with 8 these issues. 9 The state aid formula for 10 operating costs is not workable. We end up 11 throwing money in there through individual 12 programs which bear no relationship to a 13 formula. I don't think this bill even discusses 14 the issue of save harmless, which is the 15 conventional, easy way that the Legislature has 16 guaranteed that regardless of the number of 17 pupils, even when the number of pupils goes 18 down, regardless of the number of problems or 19 lack of problems, the school district receives 20 the same money as last year. Sometimes that 21 save harmless continues generation after 22 generation, and you've had save harmless, the 23 son of save harmless, the grandson of save 4867 1 harmless, and sometimes legislatures have thrown 2 money in there, the school districts whose 3 students, whose children graduated five or ten 4 years ago. 5 Those are unaddressed issues in 6 this bill. Be prepared to defend this bill if 7 this is the way you think we should go, but 8 understand, too, that there are many issues that 9 are left out of this legislation that should be 10 considered by those of us who have the 11 responsibility for the more than 700 school 12 districts in the state. 13 Thank you very much. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 15 Senator Saland. 16 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 17 President. 18 Mr. President, I quite obviously 19 rise in support of this bill. I am pleased to 20 be one of the sponsors of this bill, and I 21 certainly would like to commend Senator LaValle, 22 Senator Cook and certainly Senator Bruno, as 23 well as Jeff Lovell and Bob Hotz, and the rest 4868 1 of the staff who work tirelessly on this bill. 2 Needless to say, the Senate majority has been in 3 the forefront of dealing with education and real 4 property tax reform for a number of years. 5 We have seen bills introduced by 6 Senator LaValle, bills introduced by Senator 7 Cook, there was a bill two or three years ago 8 introduced by Senator Levy, all of which have 9 passed this house with overwhelming numbers, 10 overwhelming support, only to meet with either 11 benign neglect or perhaps either indifference or 12 intransigence in the other house. 13 The Senate is by no means -- this 14 Conference is by no means a Johnny-come-lately. 15 We have time and again restored dollars or 16 increased dollars in aid to education, and we 17 have striven tirelessly to deal with the issue 18 of real property tax reform. As I said earlier, 19 there have been several occasions in which we 20 have passed, overwhelmingly, bills that would 21 accomplish that. 22 There has been mention of the Big 23 Five, and perhaps that may in part explain the 4869 1 indifference with which these proposals have 2 been met in the other house. Within the big 3 five, we're not talking about reliance on real 4 property taxes, certainly school taxes, as a 5 means of funding their education. So the 6 reality is is that the kinds of pressures that 7 we in suburban and rural upstate districts have 8 dealing with real property tax is never felt at 9 the local level by the residents of the Big Five 10 who happen to own one- or two-family houses and 11 there's not that push; and, therefore, there has 12 been little or no pressure of placed on the 13 Assembly to deal with this issue. 14 This is the most comprehensive 15 bill dealing with the subject of real property 16 tax reform and aid to education that this state 17 has ever seen, and this conference should take 18 enormous pride in it as a major accomplishment, 19 and I'm hoping that this will be the vehicle 20 that will at long last put the Assembly's feet 21 to the fire. 22 This bill will provide when fully 23 phased in an excess of $800 million in direct 4870 1 real property tax aid to real property tax/ 2 owners in the State of New York, whether it's 3 the double shot on income tax, whether it's the 4 senior citizens real property tax exemption, the 5 circuit breaker, whatever the means is, this 6 bill in an omnibus fashion delivers. But it 7 does more than that. 8 It doesn't treat the property tax 9 problem, the problem of ever-increasing real 10 property taxes as just a revenue problem. It 11 also treats it as a spending problem, and you 12 heard Senator LaValle a little bit earlier 13 address at great length, as did Senator Cook, 14 some of the proposals that deal with the 15 spending side of the equation. 16 There's nobody here in this 17 chamber regardless of what side of the aisle 18 you're on that negotiates salaries -- nobody - 19 and salaries make up some 70 to 80 percent of 20 what your school districts are paying in terms 21 of their budgets. 22 So this is not disingenuous. I 23 have heard certainly some back biting. I have 4871 1 heard certainly some efforts to try and whittle 2 away at what I think is an extraordinarily well 3 crafted bill. The fact of the matter is and the 4 bottom line is that this conference has time and 5 again endeavored to make this a front-burner 6 issue. We have once again put it out there. 7 It's there for everybody to see. 8 It's something that the Assembly 9 is long overdue in even attempting to deal with, 10 and, hopefully, they will finally take up this 11 issue, and the people of the State of New York, 12 the real property tax/owners who are suffering 13 mightily will at long last see relief. 14 Mr. President. With great pride, 15 not only do I identify with this bill, support 16 this bill but, again, commend Senator Bruno, 17 Senator LaValle, and Senator Cook. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 19 Senator Leichter. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 21 thank you. 22 I don't know, Senator Saland, I 23 must say that either you've talked yourself into 4872 1 this or you're a helluva good actor, because I 2 look at this bill and I see it as a fraud. 3 It's a hoax on people who are 4 paying more and more real estate taxes. You can 5 go and you can claim that you are providing real 6 estate tax relief, but, in fact, you are giving 7 these districts, the school districts, a 8 Hobson's choice. It's a Hobson's choice for 9 them. Either they freeze the real estate tax, 10 in which event they get -- assuming it's 11 available -- a certain amount of additional 12 state aid, but which is pegged to the CPI. 13 Now, if you have a school 14 district that -- as some of my colleagues here 15 have pointed out, that has large, increased 16 enrollments -- take the city of New York. Last 17 year, we had 20,000 additional students. We 18 expect 20,000 additional students in the next 19 school year, and forgetting for a moment the 20 problem on the Big Five, and I want to address 21 that again just a little bit later - 22 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President. 23 Will Senator Leichter yield? 4873 1 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 2 Senator Leichter, will you yield? 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 4 SENATOR SALAND: Senator 5 Leichter, how many single-family homeowners do 6 you have in your district? 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Oh, I would 8 say maybe 100. 9 SENATOR SALAND: 100? 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 11 SENATOR SALAND: How many people 12 reside in your district? I'm assuming you have 13 somewhere in the area of the same 295,000 that 14 the rest of us have. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, I have 16 more, Senator, because my district, as the 17 census bureau has conceded and admitted, under 18 counted parts of my district, so let's say I 19 have 325,000 people. 20 SENATOR SALAND: So you have 100 21 single-family residences out of 325,000 people. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 23 SENATOR SALAND: Have they been 4874 1 clamoring at your doorstep for real property tax 2 relief? 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 4 have certainly had complaints about real 5 property taxes from the owners of larger 6 residential buildings, multiple dwellings, 7 apartment houses, commercial owners. I have a 8 lot of complaints in my district from owners of 9 cooperatives and condos because they are 10 definitely being discriminated against. 11 However, as you know, the city of 12 New York has taken the position that it would 13 keep artificially low the taxes that are 14 assessed on single- and two-family homes, so I 15 think it would be with ill grace that anybody 16 who has a single-family home in my district or 17 anywhere in New York City came to us and 18 complained about real estate taxes. 19 SENATOR SALAND: Let me just 20 pursue this a little further - 21 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 22 Senator Leichter, do you continue to yield? 23 SENATOR SALAND: -- if you will 4875 1 continue to yield. 2 I'm not quite sure what your 3 opening remarks were, but I think they were less 4 than kind in your characterization of my 5 feelings and comments about this bill, and I 6 certainly, you know, don't object to your being 7 sanctimonious. 8 But if you wouldn't mind, I must 9 tell you, given the reality of our respective 10 districts as I pointed out a bit earlier, 11 there's not exactly a ground swell of support 12 coming from anywhere in the Metropolitan area in 13 the city of New York within the five boroughs 14 with some rare exception, I'm sure, and it would 15 be very, very rare, and certainly little or no 16 cause within the ranks of the other members of 17 the Big Five because you've never had to deal 18 with the issue. 19 And, on the one hand, I listen to 20 Senator Gold and I listen to you with your 21 proposed 94 percent whatever that bill may be, 22 talking about the fact that the state isn't 23 doing enough and what we're endeavoring to do is 4876 1 to impose additional burdens on local 2 government; and when we here, with the vehicle 3 of this bill, attempt to lift that burden off 4 the back of local government, you attempt to 5 have it both ways, the height of hypocrisy. The 6 absolute height of hypocrisy. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 8 Saland, one of my colleagues -- I will not say 9 who, but when you said that I was sanctimonious 10 said, "Well, at least you are not hypocritical." 11 SENATOR SALAND: No, I just 12 accused you of being hypocritical, so we'll drop 13 that also. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: I mean here I 15 was feeling good. One of my colleagues said 16 that I wasn't hypocritical, but I didn't enjoy 17 that status very long because you now tell me I 18 am. 19 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Senator 20 Leichter, Senator Saland, could you kindly 21 address your questions and answers through the 22 chair. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Right. Yes. 4877 1 I am answering Senator Saland. 2 First of all, I certainly did not 3 say or mean to imply that you in any respects 4 were sanctimonious. I thought that you gave a 5 ringing, even a persuasive statement of support 6 for this bill, and it was so good that I can 7 attribute it only to the fact that you had 8 talked yourself into it or you were a very good 9 actor because, I think, when you look at what 10 the bill does, as I tried to say, I don't think 11 that it achieves in any respect what hopefully 12 all of us agreed to, is that we need real 13 property tax relief. 14 And, Senator, while I may not 15 have many homeowners, and I appreciate that the 16 homeowners in your districts are clamoring for 17 relief, and they are entitled to it. I'm not at 18 all blind to their problems because, while I may 19 not have many single homeowners, probably the 20 real estate taxes in total paid in my district 21 exceed the real estate taxes paid in your 22 district when you consider all of the classes of 23 real estate. 4878 1 But there is no question -- in 2 fact, one of the things that I wanted to address 3 and I will when I get back talking about the 4 bill -- is the extent to which real estate taxes 5 have risen in this state. They far outpace the 6 growth of the income tax and other taxes. There 7 is a very simple reason for it. It's because of 8 the policies that this Legislature and this 9 governor and the previous governor have 10 followed, have shifted more and more burdens on 11 the localities. The localities are desperate 12 because the only source of revenue they have is 13 basically the very, very regressive real estate 14 tax. 15 So I agree with you that we need 16 real relief. My problem with this bill is, as I 17 said, it's a Hobson's choice and I will try to 18 explain that when I get back to it on the bill. 19 Thank you, Senator Saland. 20 The reason I say it's a Hobson's 21 choice is because if you have a district that 22 has rising enrollment, there is no way that they 23 can freeze the levy, and Senator Cook, I believe 4879 1 earlier, said, "Well, they are going to get more 2 state aid under the formula." Even assuming 3 that the formula isn't meddled with and twisted 4 and turned as it is each year, the amount of 5 additional aid they get in no respect covers the 6 full cost of the additional enrollment. So the 7 district, what does it do? It has really no 8 choice. Either it cheats its children or it 9 puts the burden on the real estate taxpayers, 10 and that's what's occurred. 11 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. 12 Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 14 Senator Cook. 15 SENATOR COOK: Would Senator 16 Leichter yield? 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 19 Senator Leichter yields. 20 SENATOR COOK: Senator Leichter, 21 just so you don't misunderstand what I thought 22 we made clear, that growth aid is not impacted 23 by the cap. 4880 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if I 2 may respond by asking you a question. I 3 understand that the overall state aid is not 4 capped as far as growth aid, but your bill as I 5 understand it is pegged on overall costs. It's 6 not done on a per capita basis. 7 SENATOR COOK: It's done on a per 8 capita basis, Senator, but growth aid which is 9 currently available to districts, continues. 10 And, Senator, the point is that growth -- if you 11 add 10 percent of the students to a district, 12 you do not add 10 percent to the cost because 13 generally you can absorb into a classroom the 14 additional two students or three students that 15 that may accommodate at no additional cost, so 16 as a matter of fact growth aid generally becomes 17 a bonus to a district. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator Cook, 19 just responding to that. In the city of New 20 York, we're not able to squeeze any more people 21 in our classrooms, because we have classrooms in 22 my school district, District 6, as an example, 23 where you have 30-40, maybe even more number of 4881 1 students, and Senator Marcellino, who is of 2 course in the school system, I'm sure can think 3 of many classes that he has seen where it 4 wouldn't be possible to squeeze any more 5 students in. 6 So certainly for the city of New 7 York but I submit for also many suburban and 8 rural districts, the growth aid that will come 9 from the state will not cover the additional 10 cost of increased enrollment. 11 If we take a look at what has 12 been happening, we see that the real estate tax 13 has far outpaced all other taxes in the rate of 14 growth. Property tax revenues statewide have 15 risen 48.7 percent to 23.4 billion in the most 16 recent seven-year period. It's very easy to 17 explain why that's happened, because we have 18 reduced state support not only for education but 19 for many other services, and the Governor's 20 current budget will just drive up real estate 21 taxes and possibly the sales tax only that much 22 more. 23 Very interesting. When we had 4882 1 the local municipal officials here and they had 2 a reception and I talked to a number of them. 3 In fact, I talked to somebody from Nassau County 4 that Senator Marcellino introduced me to, a 5 mayor from one of the towns or cities there, and 6 they were all complaining. They said, We know 7 what you people are doing up in Albany. You are 8 shifting the burden on us. You are trying to 9 look good and saying we're cutting taxes in 10 Albany on the state level, and you are just 11 shifting the burden on us, and we've been 12 increasing the real estate tax and, frankly, we 13 can't do it, and I heard this from local 14 officials, both Democrats and Republicans who 15 said, Keep on doing what you are doing and we're 16 going to be totally broke, because we can not 17 raise the real estate tax any higher. 18 So I would like to see some real 19 property tax relief. I submit to you that even 20 if this worked, at the best, it would be a 21 niggling amount because of so many other factors 22 that also go into the local real estate tax. 23 Obviously, school aid is one of them, but it's 4883 1 by no means the entire universe which has driven 2 up the real estate tax. 3 I just finally want to say, 4 Senator Cook, I was interested to hear you say 5 this is going to be an entitlement. I mean I 6 don't know what makes it more or less of an 7 entitlement, let's say, than the school aid 8 formula now is, and what we've seen when this 9 Legislature -- for instance, when we did the 10 Community Reinvestment Act, and now the Governor 11 has scrapped that. He has just torn it up and 12 thrown it in the waste paper basket. So what's 13 to prevent another governor two or three or four 14 years from now doing the same thing that 15 Governor Pataki is trying to do to the Community 16 Reinvestment Act? 17 My point is, it's not a real 18 entitlement. It can be changed by any 19 Legislature. It can be changed by the Governor 20 in his budget. Obviously, the Legislature can 21 respond to it, and I think we're really going to 22 be tested when we come to the passing of budget, 23 whenever that's going to be, to see whether 4884 1 we're going to keep our commitment to the 2 Community Reinvestment Act. 3 I think there are many things 4 that can be done to provide real real estate tax 5 -- I mean real property tax relief. There's 6 also some other problems with this. I just must 7 mention that I don't think this works at all for 8 the city of New York. Senator Padavan raised 9 that question, and I must say that I think this 10 has been written to benefit or at least to allow 11 legislators to go into suburban or rural 12 districts and say I'm providing real property 13 tax relief, but I don't see how this works at 14 all for the Big Five. Certainly doesn't work 15 for the city of New York. 16 So all in all, I think, once 17 again we have something that maybe will, you 18 know, allow some legislator to go to his 19 district and say, "Look what I've done for you," 20 but the worst thing that could ever happen to 21 this bill and to you guys is if this bill of 22 became law, if the Assembly of passed it, all of 23 you would have a stricken face, "oh my God" and 4885 1 if the Governor signed it and then you were 2 tested and you were tested in your localities on 3 this bill, you would be in deep trouble. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 5 Senator Oppenheimer. 6 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: The hour is 7 late, and I'm not going to reiterate a lot of 8 the points that have been made. This is a very 9 serious issue in the community that I live in. 10 In the district that I represent, we have 11 property taxes that are I think unquestionably 12 the highest in the state, and they have become a 13 very serious burden. 14 I would just like to question one 15 point. Senator Cook, if you would yield for a 16 question? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 18 Senator Cook, do you yield? 19 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Let me see 21 if I have this correct. You are talking about 22 the cap on enrollment growth, but you're saying 23 that through growth aid that that amount of 4886 1 money would be coming into the district because 2 of growth aid for the increased number of 3 students, and, mind you, we expect about a 25 to 4 27 percent increase in student population. We 5 are really going to be hit in Westchester County 6 over the next five years. Now, while the growth 7 aid would take into account the number of 8 students that are now increased, it will not 9 advance anywhere from the cap per student that 10 is being put in place, so as the years go on, 11 and there's teachers contracts and there are 12 expenses of increased costs for supplies, that 13 is not reflected in the amount that comes for 14 the additional student. 15 SENATOR COOK: No, Senator, if 16 there's growth, there is a provision that the 17 increase -- that the tax levy can be increased 18 commensurate with the growth. There's also the 19 growth aid that continues, and there's also the 20 fact that the 3 percent, then, is calculated on 21 the previous year's budget. So that once the 22 growth aid is engrossed into the formula, that 23 also increases. 4887 1 But the point is that the tax 2 levy growth could -- and I don't see this, 3 happily, but it could reflect whatever is 4 necessary to cover growth. But I would also 5 tell you there is an additional state revenue 6 going into the district to help cover that. 7 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Well, thank 8 you, Senator Cook. 9 I think I'm pretty justified in 10 the feeling that without restoring the revenue 11 sharing monies that are supposed to be coming to 12 municipalities and without looking at the monies 13 cut out for our at-risk children, that this 14 can't possibly have an impact that you perceive 15 it will have on restraining the growth in 16 property taxes. 17 I think we have to take a serious 18 look and say maybe this is a beginning, but a 19 whole lot more has to be done and -- you know, I 20 will support this because, hey, if there is any 21 way we can even begin to get at our escalating 22 property taxes, I am willing to give it a try. 23 But I don't see how this begins to touch the 4888 1 problem; and with our student population growing 2 as it is now, I simply can't perceive that this 3 could restrain our growth, and we certainly need 4 assistance. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 6 the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 39. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 10 the roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll.) 12 Senator Cook to explain your 13 vote. 14 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. I 15 would simply like to offer a word of thanks to 16 the staff people who have really helped put the 17 flesh on these bills. Those of us who are 18 legislators have conceptual ideas, but the deep 19 research that has to be done to develop the 20 numbers and to write the language is really the 21 staff people. Jeff Lovell and Bob Hotz have 22 already been mentioned for their part. I think 23 that Peter Applebee also ought to be recognized 4889 1 because I know that he did a major part of 2 actually drafting the language that's in this 3 bill, and I think this might be an appropriate 4 point to just say again what we've said many 5 times before that while we make policy, the 6 staff people around here do an immensely 7 effective job of helping us develop effective 8 legislation. 9 I vote in the affirmative. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 11 Results. 12 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 13 the negative on Calendar Number 985 are Senators 14 Leichter, Markowitz, Paterson, Santiago, 15 Seabrook, Smith, Stavisky and Waldon. Ayes 47, 16 nays 8. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 18 bill is passed. 19 Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 21 at this time, if we could continue with the 22 controversial calendar, regular order. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 4890 1 Secretary will read. 2 THE SECRETARY: On page 54, 3 Calendar Number 683, by Senator Cook, Senate 4 Print 6412, an act to amend the Vehicle and 5 Traffic Law, in relation to designating civil 6 defense emergency vehicles. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 8 Explanation has been asked for. Senator Cook. 9 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, 10 currently in the Vehicle and Traffic Law there 11 is provision that municipal vehicles that are 12 designated as emergency vehicles can utilize red 13 lights and have certain other, if you will, 14 privileges afforded to do what is necessary in 15 an emergency, in terms of parking or observing 16 one-way streets, and in fact, with due caution, 17 even the traffic signals and signs, even though 18 it doesn't remove the liability if they do have 19 an accident. It simply means that if they 20 proceed through a signal after due caution, they 21 are not subject to a fine. 22 The problem is that in many, 23 particularly smaller communities, the people who 4891 1 respond to these emergencies live at 2 considerable distances. We just went through a 3 flood in which the roads in many areas were 4 closed. People literally could not get -- even 5 if there had been vehicles available at the 6 county office building or the county garage, 7 they literally could not get from their homes to 8 pick up one of these vehicles; and, therefore, 9 they could not function as emergency personnel, 10 that is, having these privileges under the 11 Vehicle and Traffic Law. 12 All this bill says, if a person 13 is first designated by either a state official 14 or a town or county personnel as emergency 15 personnel, that they would have those 16 privileges. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 18 Senator Paterson. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 20 President. If Senator Cook would yield. 21 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 23 Senator Cook, do you yield? 4892 1 SENATOR PATERSON: All I'm really 2 trying to find out is, are the privileges 3 granted during the emergency period or do they 4 extend to all times? 5 SENATOR COOK: Senator, yes, the 6 bill says that the individual is a designated 7 person, so it doesn't apply to the vehicle or 8 the instance. It does, indeed, apply at all 9 times. This is not, Senator, unlike a volunteer 10 fireman or emergency medical technician who has 11 certain privileges to use lights. The point is, 12 however, that if you utilize those lights or 13 those privileges in an instance where there in 14 fact is not an emergency, then you aren't 15 covered by the provisions of the Vehicle and 16 Traffic Law. You are in fact in violation of 17 the law if you are not responding to an 18 emergency. So we haven't tried to make this 19 bill unduly complicated. We have simply tried 20 to engross it into existing statute. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 22 much, Senator Cook. 23 Mr. President, on the bill. 4893 1 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 2 Senator Paterson on the bill. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: I just have a 4 concern, and I think the Governor voiced this 5 concern recently when he prohibited the use of 6 unmarked cars, and the concern is just about 7 individuals who really are not in any real 8 authority having these kinds of vehicles and 9 these identifications and symbols that actually 10 do portend that they have greater power and 11 authority than they actually have, and there is 12 a tendency to abuse it particularly when long 13 periods go by and there's not a civil emergency, 14 and yet these individuals still have these 15 delineations on their vehicles. 16 This is something, I think, we 17 should think about. I understand what Senator 18 Cook is trying to accomplish, but, you know, we 19 don't want to have this kind of circumstance 20 where there is a perceived influence and that it 21 is misused. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 23 the last section. 4894 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 4 the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54, nays 1, 7 Senator Stavisky recorded in the negative. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 9 bill is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 724, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 5553A, an 12 act to amend the Retirement and Social Security 13 Law, in relation to including certain Monroe 14 County employees. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 16 home rule message is at the desk. 17 Read the last section. 18 Explanation asked for. 19 Senator Nozzolio. 20 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President, 21 this measure is a home rule request from the 22 county of Monroe which asked to have the ability 23 for the County Legislature of Monroe to relieve 4895 1 an inequity that has existed between the fire 2 fighters of Monroe County, those who fight fires 3 and keep the safety at the Monroe County Airport 4 with those who do fire service for the rest of 5 the county. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 7 Senator Dollinger. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I 9 know the issue of the takeover of the 10 relationship between the city fire department 11 and the county fire fighters at the airport has 12 been a subject of discussion. As I understand 13 it, this bill only affects the pension 14 benefits. It doesn't deal with the tie-in 15 between the two fire departments, the possible 16 relationship between the city fire department 17 and the county fire fighters at the airport. Is 18 that correct? 19 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Senator 20 Dollinger. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. And 22 there's been no opposition filed from the city 23 fire fighters on this bill. 4896 1 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: None that I am 2 aware of. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 4 Mr. President. That's all I was interested in. 5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 6 Senator. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 8 the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 12 the roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 16 bill is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 774, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 281A, an 19 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 20 providing for business tax credits. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for 22 the day. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 4897 1 bill is laid aside for the day. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 781, by Senator Present, Senate Print 6397, an 4 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to the 5 distribution of the additional mortgage 6 recording tax. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 8 Explanation had been asked for. 9 Senator Present. 10 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 11 this is a bill that's been requested by 12 Cattaraugus County under the existing law. This 13 additional mortgage recording tax is limited to 14 certain issues, such as -- there are six -- mass 15 transportation, airport/aviation, municipal/ 16 historic site, municipal park, community mental 17 health and retardation facility, or a sewage 18 treatment plant. This bill is pretty near 19 exactly like we passed I think back in February, 20 a bill sponsored by Senator Stafford, which was 21 statewide. This applies only to Cattaraugus 22 County. It will allow them to use those funds 23 for other capital investments. 4898 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 2 President. The purpose of the bill is very 3 clear, but if Senator Present would yield for a 4 question. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 6 Senator Present, do you yield? 7 SENATOR PRESENT: Certainly. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I 9 have just been looking at a number of bills that 10 have come through particularly Investigations 11 and Taxation Committee, and there are a number 12 of bills that are very similar to this involving 13 the mortgage tax revenues, and the question is, 14 if we're going to have a rule and then we're 15 going to nick the rule to death by having all 16 these different bills, doesn't it became a 17 measure of political strength in a particular 18 community or a particular locality that you can 19 get this type of legislation passed? Shouldn't 20 we really be, in a sense, just changing the law 21 generally, let's say, to a law where the 22 counties can just make their own individual 23 decisions about the mortgage tax revenues? 4899 1 Why are we making a law and then 2 having so many exceptions to it? There have got 3 to be at least six or seven bills that have come 4 through here this year that do the same thing, 5 and my concern is, because I'm concerned about 6 everything today -- my concern is just that - 7 one of my other concerns just came up, so I'm 8 going to sum up and just let you know that why 9 don't we just pass a general bill giving the 10 counties the option where the mortgage tax 11 revenues are concerned. 12 SENATOR PRESENT: I think that's 13 what we do in Senator Stafford's bill. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: All right, 15 Senator. Thank you for answering my question. 16 On the bill, Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: 18 Senator Paterson on the bill. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: I think we 20 should pass Senator Stafford's bill. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4900 1 act shall take effect on the 30th day. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call 3 the roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll.) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 7 bill is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 885, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 3091, an 10 act to amend the Executive Law. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for 12 the day. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The 14 bill is laid aside for the day. 15 Senator Skelos. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Housekeeping at 17 the desk? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: No 19 housekeeping. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 21 there is no housekeeping at the desk. There 22 being no further business, I move we adjourn 23 until Monday, May 13, at 3:00 p.m., intervening 4901 1 days to be legislative days. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: On 3 motion, the Senate stands adjourned until 4 Monday, May 13, at 3:00 p.m., intervening days 5 to be legislative days. 6 (Whereupon, at 1:28 p.m., the 7 Senate adjourned.) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23