Tuesday, February 11, 1997

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 February 11, 1997 11 3:00 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 SENATOR NICHOLAS A. SPANO, Acting President 19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The 3 Senate will come to order. All please rise for 4 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. 5 (The assemblage repeated the 6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 7 In the absence of clergy, may we 8 please bow our heads in a moment of silence. 9 (A moment of silence was 10 observed.) 11 Reading of the Journal. 12 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, Monday, 13 February 10th. The Senate met pursuant to 14 adjournment. The Journal of Friday, February 15 7th, was read and approved. On motion, Senate 16 adjourned. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Without 18 objection, the Journal stands approved as read. 19 Presentation of petitions. 20 Messages from the Assembly. 21 Messages from the Governor. 22 Reports of standing committees. 23 Secretary will read. 24 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright, 25 from the Committee on Alcoholism and Drug Abuse, 1 reports the following bills: 2 Senate Print 45, by Senator Levy, 3 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 4 relation to requiring school bus and other motor 5 vehicle drivers; 6 338, by Senator Skelos, an act to 7 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation 8 to increasing the period of time; 9 1517, by Senator Rath, an act to 10 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation 11 to the admissibility of evidence; 12 1659, by Senator Wright, an act 13 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 14 relation to creating the crime of aggravated 15 driving while intoxicated; 16 1661, by Senator Wright, an act 17 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 18 relation to extending the scope; 19 1878, by Senator Spano, an act to 20 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation 21 to the criminal penalties. 22 Senator - 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: All 24 bills reported directly to third reading. 25 Excuse me. 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Alesi, 2 from the Committee on Consumer Protection 3 reports the following bills: 4 396, by Senator Volker, an act to 5 amend the General Business Law, in relation to 6 providing proprietary access; 7 689, by Senator Spano, an act to 8 amend the General Business Law and the Executive 9 Law; 10 779, by Senator Cook, an act to 11 amend the General Business Law; 12 1301, by Senator Velella, an act 13 to amend the General Business Law. 14 Senator Padavan, from the 15 Committee on Cities, reports the following bill: 16 899, by Senator Cook, an act to 17 amend the General City Law and others, in 18 relation to appointment of alternative members. 19 Senator Maziarz, from the 20 Committee on Aging, reports the following bills: 21 1548, by Senator Holland, an act 22 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law; 23 1693, by Senator Farley, an act 24 to amend the Real Property Tax Law. 25 Senator Rath, from the Committee 1 on Local Government, reports: 2 Senate Print 27, by Senator 3 Volker, an act to amend the General Business Law 4 and others, in relation to requiring domestic 5 steel components; 6 616, by Senator Cook, an act to 7 amend the County Law, in relation to review and 8 approval; 9 1099, by Senator Lack, an act to 10 amend the Real Property Tax Law; 11 1131, by Senator Marcellino, an 12 act to amend the General Municipal Law; 13 1168, by Senator Lack, an act in 14 relation to the real property tax assessed; 15 1728, by Senator Skelos, an act 16 to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation 17 to the notice of claim; 18 2180, by Senator Rath, an act to 19 amend Chapter 708 of the Laws of 1992, amending 20 the General Municipal Law. 21 Senator Levy, from the Committee 22 on Transportation, reports: 23 597, by Senator Levy, an act to 24 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law; 25 755, by Senator Goodman, an act 1 to amend the Transportation Law, in relation to 2 disclosure; 3 756, by Senator Goodman, an act 4 to amend the Transportation Law, in relation to 5 mandating; 6 757, by Senator Goodman, an act 7 to amend the Transportation Law, in relation to 8 increasing penalties; 9 914, by Senator Levy, an act to 10 amend the Transportation Law, in relation to 11 establishing; 12 916, by Senator Levy, an act to 13 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation 14 to establishing; 15 1387, by Senator Velella, 16 reported with amendments, an act to amend the 17 Vehicle and Traffic Law. 18 Senator Saland, from the 19 Committee on Children and Families, reports: 20 307, by Senator Skelos, an act to 21 amend the Family Court Act and the Criminal 22 Procedure Law; 23 2379, by Senator Saland, an act 24 to amend the Criminal Procedure Law and others. 25 Senator Cook, from the Committee 1 on Education, reports: 2 Senate Print 3666, by Senator 3 Cook, an act to amend the Education Law; 4 1475, by Senator Present, an act 5 to adjust certain state aid payments. 6 Senator Marcellino, from the 7 Committee on Environmental Conservation, 8 reports: 9 Senate Print 118, by Senator 10 Stafford, an act to amend the Environmental 11 Conservation Law; 12 150, by Senator Stafford, an act 13 to amend the Environmental Conservation Law; 14 389, by Senator Stafford, an act 15 to amend the Environmental Conservation Law; and 16 1388, by Senator Marcellino, an 17 act to amend the Environmental Conservation 18 Law. 19 All bills ordered directly for 20 third reading. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Without 22 objection. 23 Reports of select committees. 24 Communications and reports from 25 state officers. 1 Motions and resolutions. 2 Senator Farley. 3 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr. 4 President. 5 On behalf of Senator Hannon, 6 would you please place a sponsor's star on 7 Calendar Number 70. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Without 9 objection. 10 Senator Maziarz. 11 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr. 12 President. 13 On behalf of myself, would you 14 please place a sponsor's star on Calendar Number 15 125, Senate Bill Number 931. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: So 17 ordered. 18 Senator Skelos. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 20 there will be an immediate meeting of the Rules 21 Committee in Room 332 of the Capitol. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 23 Immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in Room 24 332 of the Capitol. 25 Senator Skelos. 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 2 believe there's a privileged resolution at the 3 desk sponsored by Senator Levy. I ask that the 4 title be read and move for its immediate 5 adoption. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 7 Secretary read the title of the resolution. 8 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Levy, 9 Legislative Resolution, memorializing the life 10 of Lawrence Johnson. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Question 12 is on the resolution. All those in favor 13 signify by saying aye. 14 (Response of "Aye.") 15 Opposed nay. 16 (There was no response. ) 17 The resolution is adopted. 18 Senator Skelos. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 20 at this time I move that we adopt the Resolution 21 Calendar in its entirety except for Resolution 22 Number 326. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: All 24 those in favor of adopting the Resolution 25 Calendar in the entirety with the exception of 1 326 signify by saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye.") 3 Opposed nay. 4 (There was no response. ) 5 The Resolution Calendar is 6 adopted. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: At this time, I 8 ask that Resolution Number 326, by Senator 9 Waldon, be read in its entirety. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 11 Secretary will read. 12 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Waldon, 13 Legislative Resolution Number 326, commending 14 New York State's first African-American 15 Legislator, Edward A. Johnson, in honor of Black 16 History Month. 17 WHEREAS, the month of February is 18 designated Black History Month; at this time 19 African-Americans reflect on the trials, 20 tribulations and victories of their past. It is 21 a time for African-Americans to appreciate their 22 own, to acknowledge not only the exceptional 23 individuals of their past who are recorded in 24 American history books but to appreciate those 25 whose names are more obscure, yet whose 1 contributions are nonetheless significant; and 2 WHEREAS, Edward A. Johnson, the 3 first African-American elected to the New York 4 State Legislature, is one of those individuals 5 who will be commended during Black History 6 Month; and 7 WHEREAS, Edward Austin Johnson 8 was born a slave in Raleigh, North Carolina, on 9 November 23, 1860. He received his early 10 education from Nancy Walton, a free 11 African-American woman who also taught many in 12 the white aristocracy; and 13 WHEREAS, Edward A. Johnson began 14 his formal education at the Washington High 15 School for Negroes and, upon graduation in 1879, 16 entered Atlanta University; there he began 17 teaching in surrounding rural communities. He 18 remained in the Atlanta area after his 19 graduation, serving first as a teacher, then as 20 a principal in the city's public schools; and 21 WHEREAS, in 1885, Edward A. 22 Johnson returned to Washington High School to 23 serve as principal. In 1890, he published A 24 School History of the Negro Race in America from 25 1619 to 1890 which, although brief and basic, 1 became widely used as text for black schools in 2 North Carolina and Virginia; and 3 WHEREAS Edward A. Johnson became 4 the first law graduate from the newly founded 5 Shaw University and shortly thereafter became 6 the dean of its law department; 7 Edward A. Johnson became 8 interested in politics and he became an 9 assistant to the district attorney in Raleigh 10 and held this post until 1907 when he moved from 11 Raleigh to New York City to practice law; 12 Edward A. Johnson became involved 13 in politics when he arrived in New York. He 14 insisted that African-American candidates be 15 nominated in those districts in which they 16 constituted a majority of the voters. He became 17 a committeeman in the 19th Assembly District in 18 Harlem and was elected to the Assembly as the 19 state's first African-American legislator in 20 1917; and 21 WHEREAS, Edward A. Johnson served 22 one term in the Assembly where he guided three 23 significant bills to law. Two bills amended the 24 Civil Rights Laws of New York State, one 25 prohibiting discrimination in employment or 1 accommodation by publicly funded hospitals, the 2 other guaranteeing all civil privileges in 3 schools, restaurants, hotels and places of 4 amusement. The third established the first free 5 labor employment bureau in the country to help 6 curb discrimination in unemployment; and 7 WHEREAS, it is with sincere and 8 heartfelt esteem that this legislative body 9 celebrate the contributions that African 10 Americans have made to our rich collective 11 heritage and to commend the talented people who 12 directed and guided them; 13 NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED 14 that this legislative body pause in its 15 deliberations to commend New York State's first 16 African-American legislator, Edward a Johnson, 17 in honor of Black History Month; and 18 BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that a 19 copy of this resolution, suitably engrossed, be 20 transmitted to the black and Puerto Rican 21 Legislative Caucus and the Schomburg Center for 22 Research in Black Culture, Harlem, New York. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 24 Waldon. 25 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 1 President, my colleagues. On the resolution. 2 First. Let me invite each of you 3 to join with me in supporting this resolution. 4 In the spirit of what America is all about, I 5 submitted it for your consideration. When you 6 think that Mr. Johnson's parents were born 7 slaves and that he, too, was born in slavery, 8 that his father's first name, fitting or unfit 9 ting, was Columbus, although we think of what 10 America is all about and who it is claimed 11 discovered America, and how you can have the 12 hope of, no matter your circumstances, no matter 13 how meager they may be, that you can rise to 14 whatever your talents will allow you to reach 15 for and to actually achieve, then Edward A. 16 Johnson, is certainly someone who realized the 17 American dream. When it was impossible for many 18 African-Americans to go to school at all, not 19 only did he attend the secondary schools but he 20 attended college and taught after he had 21 finished law school at a law school and became 22 its dean. 23 We know of Booker T. Washington 24 and his many accomplishments, but many of us in 25 this chamber have never heard of Mr. Johnson, 1 but he was someone who worked with Booker T. in 2 terms of establishing entrepreneurial 3 enterprises amongst and for African-Americans. 4 I must actually thank Jim Watson, 5 on my staff, for having not only the zeal and 6 the inclination and the sensitivity to discover 7 who Edward A. Johnson is and was and what he 8 means to African-Americans, Caribbean-Americans 9 and, in fact, all Americans. 10 He came to this chamber when he 11 was the only voice for people of color. No one 12 had preceded him. No one had been as sensitive 13 to his needs or his people's needs as he was at 14 that time, and so I rise to champion his memory, 15 and to challenge those of us who are from the 16 African-American and Caribbean-American communi 17 ties serving in Albany now, that we not forget 18 that this man was able to pass laws that dealt 19 with civil rights even in the early 1900s, that 20 this man was able to rail against a system which 21 had denied access prior to his ambition to run 22 for office and to be successful and that, if we 23 believe that America is what America is all 24 about, that each of us can make a contribution, 25 then the contributions we've made to date are 1 far too few and far too little because the 2 system still denies some of us -- some of us who 3 look like Senator Paterson and myself, some of 4 us who look like Senator Montgomery and myself 5 -- has denied us true access to all that this 6 nation is about, but if we decide internally 7 that enough is enough and we will move forward 8 to make sure that there is truly a level playing 9 field and equity, that in the memory and in the 10 posture of Edward A. Johnson, we will achieve 11 great things in the future. 12 I welcome you to support this 13 resolution. This is a time of the year that we 14 celebrate Negro history or African-American 15 history or however you wish to characterize it, 16 bespeaking the contributions made by the people 17 from Africa to this great nation, and surely 18 Edward A. Johnson was a champion in that 19 regard. 20 Thank you very much, Mr. 21 President. Thank you, my colleagues. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Question 23 is on the resolution. All those in favor signify 24 by saying aye. 25 (Response of "Aye.") 1 Opposed nay. 2 (There was no response. ) 3 The resolution is adopted. 4 Senator Paterson. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 6 I believe that Senator Waldon graciously opened 7 the resolution for co-sponsorship at the 8 beginning of his remarks, and I think he'll 9 affirm that he'd like to open it up for all 10 sponsors if they so desire. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 12 Johnson. 13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 14 at this time may we please have the 15 non-controversial reading of the calendar. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 17 Johnson, Senator Paterson asked if, without 18 objection, all members of the Senate be included 19 on the previous resolution. 20 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, certainly; 21 that's great, Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: All 23 members will be included unless you notify the 24 desk, and we will now have the reading of the 25 non-controversial calendar. 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 64, by Senator Present, Senate Print 532, an act 3 to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation 4 to giving municipalities the power. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay that 6 aside. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay 8 aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 69, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print Number 336, 11 an act to amend the Public Health Law, the 12 Criminal Procedure Law and the Family Court Act, 13 in relation to the testing of persons. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Laid 16 aside. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 82, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 918, an act to 19 amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation to 20 requiring the Metropolitan Transportation 21 Authority. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 23 last section. 24 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 25 act shall take effect immediately. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 2 roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 6 is passed. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 85, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 19, an act 9 to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 10 increasing the amount of credit life insurance. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 12 last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 20 is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 86, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 114, an 23 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 24 premium or compensation. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 1 last section. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Laid 4 aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 93, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 1182, an act 7 to amend the County Law, in relation to 8 establishing county communications systems. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Laid 11 aside. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 94, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 87-A. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Laid 16 aside. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 105, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 887, an act 19 to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in relation 20 to fingerprinting persons. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 22 last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 24 act shall take effect immediately. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 5 is passed. 6 Senator Skelos, that completes 7 the reading of the non-controversial calendar. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Can we take up 9 the controversial calendar. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 64, by Senator Present, an act to amend the 12 General Municipal Law, in relation to giving the 13 municipalities the power. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 15 Present. 16 SENATOR PRESENT: Thank you, Mr. 17 President. 18 The General Municipal Law 19 requires counties to award bids to the lowest 20 bidder under a purchase order or a contract. 21 Under the provisions of this, if a contract 22 comes in for more than five percent above the 23 lowest bidder, but it's state-operated, state 24 provided services and workers, that bid can be 25 awarded to the organization. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 2 Paterson. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 4 President. 5 If Senator Present would yield 6 for a brief question. 7 SENATOR PRESENT: Certainly. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 9 Present yields. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, this 11 legislation, which exists under the General 12 Municipal Law, does it in any way conflict with 13 the set asides provided for women's businesses 14 under the Public Authorities Law? 15 SENATOR PRESENT: None that I 16 know, sir. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 20 last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the 24 roll. 25 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 69, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 336, an act 6 to amend the Public Health Law, the Criminal 7 Procedure Law and the Family Court Act, in 8 relation to the testing of persons. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 11 Explanation has been asked for on Calendar 69. 12 Senator Skelos. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, Mr. 14 President. 15 This legislation, which was 16 debated last year, allows early detection and 17 early treatment for our law enforcement 18 community when, during the course of their 19 duties, an injury incident relates to possible 20 exposure to a transmissible disease. I'm 21 talking about daily incidents in the life of a 22 cop or correction officer. It could be a 23 scuffle on the street, a brawl in a correction 24 facility or in routine frisking that potentially 25 exposes these officers to deadly transmissible 1 diseases. 2 The purpose of this legislation 3 is to provide a measure of protection to our 4 police, correction and peace officers. It gives 5 them a method of discovering whether they have 6 been exposed to a transmissible disease during 7 the performance of their job without jeopardiz 8 ing the confidentiality of the suspect's medical 9 condition. 10 Treating a possible transmissible 11 disease right away can prevent these diseases 12 from becoming full-blown. It is, therefore, 13 imperative that treatment begin immediately. 14 For example, we know now that a gamma globulin 15 shot administered soon after exposure can stop 16 hepatitis. Science now tells us that early use 17 of AZT can potentially stop HIV, and early 18 injections of antibiotics can cure TB. 19 So basically, what this 20 legislation does, it provides a measure or a 21 peace of mind to police officers, early 22 detection, early treatment and, hopefully, a 23 cure. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the 25 last section. 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 2 President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: I'm 4 sorry. Senator Dollinger. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I just have a 6 couple questions that I wanted to make sure I 7 understand this, but I think you and I discussed 8 many aspects of this last year at some length. 9 Just so I understand the 10 structure of the bill, again through you, Mr. 11 President if the sponsor will yield, there are 12 two sections of the Criminal Procedure Law that 13 would be changed here. One says that this is a 14 requirement for testing of transmissible 15 diseases in persons under arrest, and then the 16 second section which actually amends, I believe, 17 the Family Court Act, which provides for those 18 that are in custody. 19 I guess my question is, is there 20 a difference between the procedures in those two 21 bills, or are they identical? 22 SENATOR SKELOS: No. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. So it's 24 the same procedure for either instance. Again 25 through you, Mr. President, turning to the bill 1 that -- the definition of transmitable disease, 2 it suggests that it refers to and you refer to 3 the immunodeficiency virus, HIV, or its 4 derivatives, you talk about hepatitis and its 5 derivatives, tuberculosis and then you say any 6 other serious illness which the court finds the 7 petitioner could have a reasonable expecta 8 tion.... 9 Could you tell me what that 10 means? Is it - 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Exactly what you 12 just said. A police officer, or correction 13 officer, if they felt that they were potentially 14 exposed to a transmissible disease -- and we 15 know that presently 25 percent of the prison 16 population test positive for TB; 15 percent of 17 the prison population test positive for the HIV 18 virus; many of them have both -- what would 19 happen is the police officer would make an 20 application to a judge, would have to show 21 probable cause that he -- he or she may have 22 been exposed to a transmissible disease. A 23 judge would then order, if he felt in his 24 discretion that a test was warranted for this 25 potential of having a transmissible disease. 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. But my 2 question is, is it a subjective standard or any 3 other infectious disease? 4 SENATOR SKELOS: O.K. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My question, 6 again through you, Mr. President, is it a 7 subjective standard on the part of the officer 8 that he could have a reason -- that the officer 9 could have a reasonable expectation of 10 contracting the disease, or is it an objective 11 standard from medical science that says under 12 these circumstances there was a reasonable 13 opportunity for the disease to be transmitted, 14 and do you understand the difference? 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Basically what 16 it is, Senator Dollinger, is their practical 17 experience in law enforcement. For example, 18 patting down an individual and pricking 19 themselves with a hypodermic needle, if I were a 20 police officer I would want that individual 21 tested immediately. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: M-m h-m-m. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: If I am a prison 24 guard and a prisoner bites me, throws urine and 25 feces on me, which occurs at times, if there's a 1 fight and there's blood involved and it gets on 2 me, to me in my experience as a police officer 3 or correction officer, at that point I would 4 feel the need to apply to the judge to have this 5 person tested for a potential disease. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And again 7 through you, Mr. President, I understand that 8 situation. I question whether your language 9 here -- your language suggests that the 10 petitioner -- that the judgment made is whether 11 the petitioner, the person who has been exposed, 12 could have a reasonable expectation. That 13 suggests that the court would be required to use 14 a subjective standard based on the officer's 15 fear of contracting the disease rather than a 16 medical objective standard for determining 17 whether the disease could be communicated under 18 those circumstances. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Many instances 20 there's not a doctor right on the scene. We 21 want to move this expeditiously because so often 22 with treatment, if it occurs within 24 hours, 48 23 hours, there's a better chance of the treatment 24 being effective with the police officer or the 25 -- or the prison guard. If the judge feels 1 that a hearing would be necessary, then he could 2 bring in a medical doctor to make that -- that 3 -- help him make his determination. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right, but 5 I'm just -- again through you, Mr. President, 6 I'm just suggesting that the standard you're 7 using is a subjective standard, that is whether 8 the petitioner could have -- could have, might 9 have, could have a reasonable expectation of 10 contracting these illnesses from a subject as a 11 result of the alleged exposure. 12 That suggests to me that it's a 13 subjective standard. The courts would apply a 14 subjective standard and not a medically 15 objective standard about the conditions under 16 which the disease could be transferred, and I'm 17 simply highlighting the difference between an 18 officer coming in and saying, I'm afraid I might 19 have gotten exposed to this disease, and a judge 20 saying, There's medical evidence based on 21 certain facts which would lead to a conclusion 22 that there might have been a transmission. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: It is to some 24 extent subjective. It is something the police 25 officer could discuss. For example, at the 1 press conference we had today, we had a Dr. 2 Belmonte with us, who is a specialist in 3 occupational medicine, a surgeon and a 4 consultant to approximately 20 municipalities 5 dealing with police and correction officers. He 6 averages ten cases a month similar to this. You 7 could consult with him. 8 The bottom line, what we're 9 trying to do with this legislation is get early 10 detection, early treatment and protect the life 11 of this police officer. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Again 13 through you, Mr. President, I'm not going to 14 focus on the entire bill but just one other 15 thing I want to make sure about. Who pays for 16 the court costs of applying for the court order 17 to conduct the test? 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Same answer as 19 last year, the county. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The county 21 pays for the cost of applying. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: You would make 23 an application, ex parte application, to the 24 court. The court would make that decision on 25 whatever costs there are involved. It would be 1 paid by the -- by that county. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 3 you, Mr. President, I'm a police officer, I want 4 to get the test done. I file the petition in my 5 name, and it's -- the cost is paid for by the 6 county. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Or the state if 8 you filed the petition with the court. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: If I file. 10 O.K. The other question is, with respect to 11 Section 3 in the bill, this is line 42 through 12 45, it says that there is notice to the other 13 side, to the person under arrest, and there's an 14 opportunity -- is there an opportunity to be 15 heard? 16 SENATOR SKELOS: The person will 17 get notice of the decision of the court. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right, but my 19 question again through you, Mr. President, is 20 whether -- if Senator Skelos will continue to 21 yield is, does he get an opportunity to be 22 heard? 23 SENATOR SKELOS: No, it's an ex 24 parte application and, if the judge in his 25 discretion wants to bring in the person that's 1 been arrested or that's incarcerated to be part 2 of that proceeding, he can. It's in the 3 discretion of the court, but it's an ex parte 4 application. When the court makes its decision, 5 they then will obviously notify both the 6 petitioner and the person who is going to be 7 tested. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. I thank 9 Senator Skelos for enduring another set of 10 questions as last year. 11 Just on the bill, Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator 13 Dollinger, on the bill. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The reason 15 why I highlighted those two sections of the bill 16 is because I think, to some extent, they're what 17 the bill is all about. What this bill talks 18 about is the fear of transmissible disease and 19 not necessarily the reality of circumstances 20 under which diseases are transmitted. 21 In the definition of 22 "transmissible disease," the way the language 23 reads, it says, If the petitioner could - 24 could, not does, but could have a reasonable 25 expectation -- expectation -- that he might - 1 might have been exposed and that he might have 2 been in contact with someone, then under those 3 circumstances, you are entitled to bring a 4 petition to be tested. 5 It seems to me that that 6 addresses the one issue that we all agree with 7 and that is that people are afraid of the 8 transmission of diseases in these situations. 9 But the mere fear alone is not enough to require 10 testing, and I would strongly suggest that there 11 be a medical standard that the court would apply 12 to the process by which testing occurs. 13 In order to apply a medical 14 standard, it seems to me, Mr. President, what 15 you have to do is, you have to give notice and 16 an opportunity to be heard by the defendant, by 17 the person in custody because the defendant 18 could walk in the courtroom and say, I disagree 19 with the facts alleged in the petition and I 20 want a hearing on the issue of whether or not 21 there is probable cause. 22 I think what this shows is the 23 bill, although it tries to address a very 24 complicated issue, is so hastily drafted and 25 somewhat inartfully drafted that could create 1 problems for our courts in trying to interpret. 2 I also think that this deals with 3 a problem of fear and it is the second best way 4 to determine whether diseases have been 5 transmitted. There is one absolutely clear 6 first way to do it and that is, have the officer 7 pay -- have the cost paid for by the county for 8 the officer to be tested immediately and tested 9 as frequently as possible to determine whether 10 exposure has occurred. That's the easy way to 11 do it. It's not based on fear; it's all based 12 on simple medical science. 13 That is what we should be 14 focusing on, and it seems to me that's the right 15 thing to do. This may be the second best thing 16 to do. I'm not sure this bill even does what 17 the sponsor may or is attempting to do, but the 18 best thing to do, the first thing to do, the 19 thing that simply allays the fears and solves 20 the problem is to simply allow the person to be 21 tested and have the government pay the cost. 22 When that bill comes forward, I 23 will be voting for it. This bill, I will not. 24 SENATOR GOLD: Last section. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: Thank 1 you, Mr. President. Would the Deputy Majority 2 Leader yield for a question? 3 SENATOR SKELOS: I will. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 5 Senator Skelos. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, I will. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 8 Skelos, understanding as we do these are pretty 9 egregious situations and they place the 10 individuals who are affected into situations 11 that create a lot of fear and anxiety as Senator 12 Dollinger referred, assuming that the - 13 assuming that the defendant tested negative for 14 whatever the disease might be, the HIV virus or 15 tuberculosis, assuming that the defendant tested 16 negative, to what extent would you suggest that 17 it provides relief for the party that is perhaps 18 urged by that not to be tested when the more 19 responsible medical advice might be that they 20 take the test? 21 SENATOR SKELOS: It offers some 22 peace of mind, but certainly the -- I think the 23 consultation and the advice that a doctor such 24 as Dr. Belmonte would give them is that perhaps 25 you should be tested down the road, especially 1 for the HIV virus, but there is an added measure 2 of protection by having that person arrested 3 tested at that time, especially the hepatitis 4 and especially for TB where, if you can start 5 treatment within 28 hours to 48 hours, you can 6 have an cure of the disease. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Understanding 8 that, I think that's precisely relating to the 9 question that I previously asked. In other 10 words, since that is the best medical advice 11 that we can come up with, the question is not 12 really the merit of the legislation, because the 13 legislation does have merit, but I think the 14 question I'm asking is, for individuals who are 15 already afraid to be tested that there's a kind 16 of avoidant conduct that's been evidenced among 17 people who have these types of problems that 18 doesn't this provide in a sense a false comfort 19 to them since we don't even know what diseases 20 the defendant might have or might have 21 transmitted? 22 SENATOR SKELOS: It offers some 23 sense of security that, if the defendant or the 24 person arrested is tested at that time, we can 25 find out whether, in fact, they are infected 1 with one of these diseases. Is it a hundred 2 percent? The answer is no. But that's some 3 thing that -- that they would be counseled by 4 with their doctor, that perhaps there still is a 5 need to be tested, but at that time there can be 6 some sort of a determination as to whether they 7 have been infected with this transmissible 8 disease. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: If the Senator 10 would yield for another question. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 12 Senator Skelos. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Then how does 14 the information that we derive from the test 15 affect treatment? 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Well, let's talk 17 about a situation where the person is tested, 18 does not have TB or hepatitis. The police 19 officer then can opt not to get the gamma 20 globulin shots, not to get the other shots that 21 are often very painful because he knows that 22 this person is not infected with at least these 23 two diseases so, by the -- by the -- by the 24 person that's been arrested or in custody, not 25 at least showing these two diseases, you can 1 avoid certain painful and costly tests at that 2 time. So at least it eliminates those 3 potentials. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Following up 5 on that, Mr. President, if Senator Skelos would 6 yield again. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 8 Senator Skelos, do you continue to yield to 9 Senator Paterson? 10 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 12 Senator Paterson. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Then I would 14 imagine that the distinction that you're drawing 15 with the HIV virus is that it takes longer to 16 get the test results. 17 SENATOR SKELOS: It may take 18 longer to get the results. It may take longer 19 to manifest themselves. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Right. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, I 23 certainly understand that, and thank you, 24 Senator Skelos, but I think the point that I am 25 very concerned about is that in these situations 1 that are quite dangerous, and you set them forth 2 quite well in your legislation. In other words, 3 this is not an issue that should be taken 4 lightly, and it's an issue that you've taken a 5 lot of time to research and it's quite 6 commendable, but then somewhere at the end of 7 the legislation, we're stopping short of what 8 would be, in my opinion, the desired effect 9 which would be to be as close to being certain 10 as we possibly can be when the lives of police 11 officers are at stake and, in my opinion, the 12 only way that would be best accomplished is 13 through the testing of the potential victim 14 based on their contact with the defendant, the 15 inmate or whoever the person is. 16 I have one last question on 17 another part of the bill, if the Senator would 18 continue to yield. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 20 Senator Skelos, do you continue to yield? 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Certainly. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 23 Senator Paterson. 24 SENATOR SKELOS: The police 25 officer, the correction officer it would be 1 common practice if they are bitten, if somebody 2 spits on them, if blood is put on them, that 3 they would be tested also. So now what we have 4 is the person arrested being tested and also if 5 this legislation passes, and also the police 6 officer. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, now - 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 9 Senator Paterson. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. 12 Senator, if you wouldn't mind 13 yielding. I'm somewhat confused because if 14 we're going to test, if that's the standard 15 practice, then why do we need to test the other 16 party where the information is certainly a lot 17 more faulty? 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Because the 19 disease may not have manifested itself at that 20 immediate time, hours after the incident, with 21 the police officer or the correction officer. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: What I'm 23 suggesting, Senator, is that this disease being 24 present in the inmate does not necessarily mean 25 that it was transferred, and so in a sense we 1 have a situation where both possibilities exist, 2 in other words, where the -- where the police 3 officer or the corrections officer may or may 4 not have the disease or may not -- may or may 5 not have acquired it, symptomatic or not, based 6 on the contact with the -- the inmate and the 7 defendant, and although the information might be 8 important, for instance, if you were saying that 9 this information is important because we need to 10 know based on the contact that this inmate might 11 have with other officers as yet where there 12 hasn't been contact, in other words as a safety 13 precaution, then I wholeheartedly agree with 14 you, but I'm saying to know for the point of 15 whether or not it got transferred to the 16 individual who's making the applications where I 17 don't think the information provides us with 18 what is as close to what we would need in this 19 case which is to have medical accuracy, and so 20 now I'll go on to the next question, if the 21 Senator will yield. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 23 Senator Skelos. 24 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr. 25 President. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 2 Senator Paterson. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, just 4 very briefly on the issue of confidentiality. I 5 notice that you have listed the potential of 6 reaching out to the victim, the victim's 7 immediate family, the health care providers, the 8 victim's attorney. I'm just wondering if there 9 isn't a wide range of individuals that would be 10 provided information who might not necessarily 11 need to know the information about the result of 12 these tests. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: We've tried to 14 keep it as tight as possible and, in fact, the 15 person that's been tested, if they opted not to 16 get the information, they won't be told the 17 information. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 19 Senator Waldon. 20 SENATOR WALDON: Thanks very 21 much, Mr. President. 22 Would the gentleman yield to a 23 question or two? 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 25 Senator Skelos, would you yield to a question 1 from Senator Waldon? 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 4 Senator Waldon. 5 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. Thank you, Senator Skelos. 7 Just for my personal edification, 8 would you clarify some things. Do you know 9 definitively what is the gestation period for 10 some -- let's just deal with the one that causes 11 the most fear in the universe, for the HIV 12 virus? 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator Waldon, 14 what I know definitively is the testimony of 15 Albany Police Officer Steve Reilly, whose wife 16 works in the Senate, who is presently pregnant. 17 He had his blood commingled with a murder 18 suspect's in a car. I know what they're going 19 through right now in their lives because this 20 person would not be tested. 21 I know what Todd Tortia, a police 22 officer from Nassau County, is going through 23 that finally after six months and being treated 24 with AZT as a precautionary measure, actually 25 more than six months, not being able to work for 1 six months, how it affected his family, and 2 finally the person that was incarcerated 3 submitting to a test and being found not to be 4 infected with any transmissible disease so that 5 this treatment that the police officer went 6 through was needless -- actually it was over a 7 year -- and I also know what 28-year-old Albany 8 city police officer Victor Pizzola went through 9 -- oddly enough his wife also works for the 10 Senate and they have a one-year-old daughter - 11 and the person that he was involved with would 12 not submit to a test until a plea bargain 13 arrangement was arranged with the court. Finally 14 he submitted to a test and was not found to be 15 positive for any transmissible diseases. That's 16 what I know that's certain, what these people 17 have gone through with their lives. 18 SENATOR WALDON: Senator -- if I 19 may, Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 21 Senator Waldon. 22 SENATOR WALDON: I have great 23 respect for you, I have great respect for what 24 you're attempting to do with the bill, but 25 considering that respect on a personal level I 1 have to -- you are totally non-responsive to my 2 question. 3 I'm asking you to help me and 4 perhaps others in this chamber to understand the 5 fear surrounding the issue of transmissible 6 diseases to law enforcement personnel who are 7 heroes on the line, good samaritans who give 8 their lives all too often and take risks all too 9 often so the rest of us can be safe and secure. 10 This is not a frivolous activity. If you don't 11 know the gestation period for HIV, I would 12 respectfully request that you just say no. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: I know that it's 14 an extended period of time. 15 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you for 16 that. Mr. President, if I may ask another 17 question. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 19 Senator Waldon. Senator Skelos, do you continue 20 to yield? 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 22 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, 23 Senator Skelos. Thank you, Mr. President. 24 Then, Senator Skelos, can we 25 create a hypothetical? The hypothetical I wish 1 you to respond to is the following: Someone may, 2 in fact, be infected but the infection has not 3 reached a level where it will present itself 4 even if that person is tested. Can you accept 5 that that's a possibility? 6 SENATOR SKELOS: And, Mr. 7 President, I think, if I may, I think I 8 mentioned that to Senator Paterson that that 9 possibility does exist, but we know with TB and 10 hepatitis, because for some reason you seem to 11 be focused only on HIV. I mean I'm talking 12 about tuberculosis, hepatitis, other type 13 infectious diseases also, so that we're not just 14 focused on the HIV virus, but TB, hepatitis, you 15 detect it and start treatment within 28, 48 16 hours, the potential for curing that disease 17 within the police officer is nearly a hundred 18 percent. 19 SENATOR WALDON: If I may 20 continue, Mr. President. Would the gentleman 21 just continue to yield to a few more questions? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 23 Senator Skelos, would you continue to yield to 24 Senator Waldon? 25 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 1 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, my 2 purpose for asking is for a real purpose, and 3 we'll get to it in a minute. If -- another 4 hypothetical. If someone is infected and the 5 gestation period for when that infection will 6 show on a test does not happen, then there's no 7 way even if he or she is tested, that the 8 victim, the officer, will be able to 9 definitively say Aha!, they have something, and 10 I need to go through the process of treatment. 11 Is that what you were saying earlier? 12 SENATOR SKELOS: You can sit here 13 and come up with so many possibilities. We do 14 not live in a perfect world, Senator Waldon, but 15 all I know are the police officers, the peace 16 officers, the correction officers that are 17 supporting this legislation and, as I said to 18 you last year when we went through our dance, 19 our annual dance on this bill, these individuals 20 feel that it's necessary in order to give them 21 an additional way of protecting themselves when 22 this type of incident occurs to them, so I'm 23 going to err on the side of going along with our 24 police officers. 25 SENATOR WALDON: May I continue, 1 Mr. President? Would the gentleman - 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 3 Senator Skelos, do you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr. 5 President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 7 Senator Waldon. 8 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Skelos, 9 we will pass this bill in this house. What 10 effect will this bill have, and now we're 11 getting down to what I really want to deal with 12 this year, and I must tell you that you're a 13 very great dancing partner. The rhythms have 14 always been good, and we engage each other in a 15 very fine, fine fettle, if I may. 16 There is nothing in this bill as 17 proposed by you which will create a change in 18 the procedures in any of the police departments 19 across the state; is that a correct analysis? 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Doesn't change 21 any procedures. 22 SENATOR WALDON: O.K. Thank you 23 very much. 24 On the bill, Mr. President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 1 Senator Waldon, on the bill. 2 SENATOR WALDON: I believe I 3 understand the Senator's concern and his concern 4 on behalf of our law enforcement personnel and I 5 am extremely sensitive to the needs of law 6 enforcement personnel across the state, but I 7 think this is flawed. 8 One, for a police officer on the 9 line, the detective or a uniformed officer at 10 the lowest level to get anything done, he has to 11 go through a sergeant, through his lieutenant, 12 through his captain if he's in a bureau, through 13 his bureau chief and nothing is going to happen 14 within 24 to 48 hours which will allow him or 15 her to be tested in a proper fashion to 16 accomplish what Senator Skelos wishes to do. 17 Senator Paterson was on the 18 money. Why should we mess around with all these 19 other activities? Why not cut to the chase? If 20 the officer who, most of them, when they begin 21 their career graduated only from high school, 22 has no medical degree, has no ability to say 23 that I was in the Army, because most people do 24 not go into the Army or the Air Force or the 25 Marines or whatever now, but I have training in 1 a second eight weeks in the service which gives 2 me some expertise in this area which I can then 3 say definitively I know that medically this 4 person might have a disease that I need to 5 protect myself from. 6 What we need to do is cut right 7 to the chase and, if the officer, in his or her 8 opinion, feels I've been exposed then go right 9 into a treatment component until they find out 10 whether or not it's true. It saves money. It 11 saves aggravation. It doesn't violate 12 constitutional guarantees in terms of someone 13 giving up their rights. 14 I think that it is an exercise - 15 an exercise in futility to follow the mandates 16 of this particular proposal, and I would 17 encourage us not to support it. 18 Thank you very much, Mr. 19 President. Thank you very much, Senator 20 Skelos. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: Thank 22 you, Senator Waldon. 23 Senator Leichter. 24 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Thank 25 you, Mr. President. 1 Senator Skelos, I just read our 2 debate of last year, and I must say I was pretty 3 persuasive. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Well, then, 5 maybe you just want to say "ditto". 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, I will 7 say "ditto" to the extent of not asking you any 8 questions because the questions that you were 9 asked by Senators Dollinger and Paterson and 10 Waldon pointed out, I think, some of the 11 difficulty that the rest of us have with this 12 bill, and let me say that all of us want to take 13 action to actually protect police officers. 14 Theirs is a tough job and, if we can give them 15 realistic honest protection, if we could do so 16 within constitutional bounds, we certainly ought 17 to do that and I have no problem with that. 18 The difficulty that we have with 19 this bill is that it doesn't help police 20 officers because, as you admitted last year and 21 I think you admitted this year, irrespective of 22 the test that is given the offender, the 23 subject, as he or she are referred to in your 24 bill, you have to test the police officer. It 25 would be irresponsible not to test that police 1 officer. 2 So if you're in a situation where 3 there's a chance of the passage of a 4 communicable disease, the very first thing you 5 must do is have that officer tested and it's the 6 results of that test which will determine 7 whether treatment is necessary or is not 8 necessary. 9 Now, what you -- what you've done 10 with this bill is, you've cloaked it with all 11 sorts of communicable disease, but really, 12 you're talking about HIV, and I submit to you 13 it's a punitive bill because for HIV it makes 14 absolutely no sense whatsoever to test the 15 person who might have commun... communicated the 16 disease because, as we know, and HIV is 17 extremely complex and so on, the person could 18 test negative and still have transmitted the 19 disease. He could test positive and may not 20 have transmitted the disease and everyone will 21 tell you that you must test the person who 22 thinks he or she were infected. 23 Now, as far as TB and hepatitis, 24 those have been around for a long time and 25 nobody ever brought out a bill of this sort. I 1 don't think it's a problem, but it may be that 2 in the case of TB, maybe in the case of 3 hepatitis, tests would be justified. Keep in 4 mind that you have to have a very compelling 5 standard here, because you're testing people who 6 have not been convicted, so you have certain - 7 they have certain rights, rights against search 8 and seizure, but it may be that if you can 9 really show a great medical advantage or 10 benefit, that the courts will say that that is 11 justifiable. 12 But that's not really what you're 13 trying to do. You're trying to deal with HIV 14 and that's why this bill surfaced at the time 15 that HIV became a problem in our society, and I 16 think that it is punitive. It's punitive saying 17 you're somebody, you've been arrested, you're a 18 subject, we think you might even have HIV; we're 19 going to test you although it does absolutely 20 nothing insofar as telling you whether the 21 arresting officer, whether he pricked his finger 22 or was bitten, or so on, might have been 23 infected with the HIV virus. 24 For that reason, I think the bill 25 is unconstitutional because it serves no purpose 1 and again, I remind you you're dealing with 2 people who are arrested, have not been 3 convicted. If you want to bring in a bill that 4 deals only with hepatitis or TB, it may be that 5 you have a bill that I and others could support 6 and that's constitutional. But your bill is 7 aimed at HIV and for HIV it does absolutely 8 nothing. If anything, it's misleading. 9 That officer who says, Well, I 10 think I might have contacted HIV, and they have 11 tested that subject and he doesn't have it, I'm 12 not going to be tested, he would be -- he would 13 be in danger. He shouldn't in any respect rely 14 on the test, and similarly, if the test shows 15 that the person was arrested was positive, it 16 doesn't mean that he right away goes into 17 treatment. You have to test him. 18 So, Senator Skelos, I think the 19 bill makes an ideological statement. It 20 expresses the disgust that some people have with 21 persons who have -- who are HIV positive, but it 22 does nothing for the law enforcement community. 23 It does nothing to deal with the real medical 24 problem, and I think it's constitutionally 25 defective. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: Thank 2 you, Senator Leichter. 3 Senator Abate. 4 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. Would 5 Senator Skelos yield to just a couple questions? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 7 Senator Skelos, would you yield to a couple 8 questions? 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Same as last 10 year? 11 SENATOR ABATE: I'd like to say 12 same as last year but also I want to cover a 13 couple questions that my colleagues raised, but 14 I want to take it one step further. 15 Senator Leichter raised a very 16 good issue. We all understand that particular 17 ly with TB, it's contagious and hepatitis is a 18 very serious disease and the medical knowledge 19 at hand says that, when you test someone for 20 either hepatitis and TB, you have a very good 21 idea whether they have it or not. You don't 22 have to wait for the immunity and the virus to 23 show within the blood stream to see if the test 24 is accurate. 25 If we really were concerned about 1 protecting officers and giving them adequate - 2 SENATOR SKELOS: We really are 3 concerned, Senator, that's your interpretation. 4 We really are concerned. 5 SENATOR ABATE: Well, the reason 6 I'm separating out because it's my understanding 7 that we could pass today easily and pass in the 8 Assembly easily if we separated out HIV testing 9 and had a bill that just talked about hepatitis 10 testing as well as TB. 11 Why not separate out the 12 controversial from the non-controversial so at 13 least immediately we could provide some relief 14 to law enforcement officers and then go back and 15 debate the HIV testing issue? 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Because at least 17 15 percent of the prison population is now HIV 18 positive. 19 SENATOR ABATE: But even a 20 greater percent of the prison population have 21 TB. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: 25 percent. 23 SENATOR ABATE: And hepatitis, so 24 why not create some immediate relief where we're 25 testing these defendants and providing some good 1 relief to law enforcement, and I guess that's my 2 question, why not separate HIV testing out and 3 do two-thirds of the bill today? 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Because I think 5 this is a very important component. If you 6 consider HIV a socially protected disease that's 7 fine. I consider it a disease that can 8 negatively impact our police officers and 9 correction officers just as TB can, just as 10 hepatitis can. 11 SENATOR ABATE: Well, let me 12 rephrase the question. If, in fact, we debate 13 this bill like we did last year and we come back 14 a year later with the same debate, around the 15 advisability and the accuracy of this HIV test, 16 and yet we would, if we could in this short term 17 interim pass something, even though it's two 18 thirds of a loaf, why not do it instead of 19 coming back here next year in the same position 20 we are today? Why not at least pass immediately 21 the testing that could require testing of 22 defendants on TB and -- and hepatitis, even 23 though it's not ideal as far as you're 24 concerned? We would be providing some real 25 peace of mind to law enforcement officers on two 1 thirds of the loaf. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator Abate, 3 it's amazing how things sometimes happen in this 4 Legislature. Bills pass the Assembly that we 5 never think would pass, and I'm hopeful that 6 they'll see the wisdom of this legislation and 7 pass it. 8 SENATOR ABATE: But what I'm 9 suggesting is we still could pass potentially 10 two bills. If everyone began to see it the way 11 you did, we could pass two bills, one dealing 12 with HIV testing, maybe down the road if you're 13 right, but at least today we could reach a 14 consensus and provide testing of defendants 15 around the critical areas where there's 16 agreement. 17 SENATOR SKELOS: Why don't we 18 suggest this to your colleagues in the Assembly 19 majority, that they pass the bill you're 20 suggesting and we, with consent, of course, of 21 the Majority Leader and the Speaker, that we go 22 to joint conference committee, and air out the 23 difference between the two bills and see if we 24 can resolve our differences? 25 SENATOR ABATE: Not being in the 1 leadership, I mean I think there is a 2 difference. Sure, we'll look at that, but I 3 think there is a difference between the testing 4 of HIV in terms of sound health care policy and 5 the testing of TB and hepatitis, but let me go 6 on. When I talk on the bill, we can discuss the 7 differences, but I think we in the Legislature 8 should be about providing immediate relief when 9 we can agree on issues. We should identify 10 those issues and pass legislation instead of 11 putting forth legislation year after year that 12 dies because we can't agree on a hundred percent 13 of the bill. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Well, first of 15 all, this is the second - 16 SENATOR ABATE: I say let's be 17 practical. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: This is the 19 second year that I brought this bill before the 20 house and it reminds me of other legislation 21 that I've had such as Megan's Law and others 22 that it took sometimes two years for the 23 Assembly to see the wisdom, the wisdom of the 24 legislation that the Senate passed. 25 SENATOR ABATE: Well, this is not 1 about politics or ideology, this is about 2 relying on the medical profession to give us 3 some guidance, but at any rate, let me just go 4 on to the testing of the defendants in this 5 situation. Who will bear the cost, and what 6 will be the cost of this testing? I know I asked 7 that question last year. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: The county. 9 SENATOR ABATE: And the counties 10 -- do we have a price tag on what that will 11 cost the counties? 12 SENATOR SKELOS: No, no, no. 13 SENATOR ABATE: And then 14 procedurally, what will be the increased cost to 15 local corrections because there will be a sub 16 set of people who now could be detained up to 24 17 hours for a hearing, or more than 24 hours if 18 they refuse to get tested. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: I'm looking to 20 our police. I'm not putting the cost factor on 21 a policeman's life. You may want to put a cost 22 factor on a policeman's life or a correction 23 officer's life. I won't do that. 24 SENATOR ABATE: I know probably a 25 lot more about correction officers, and I'm very 1 concerned about their security, but this bill 2 does not provide any more health security than 3 they have now. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Well, then, 5 you're smarter and brighter than every 6 correction officer, every police officer that's 7 supporting this legislation, and I compliment 8 you on your intelligence, being smarter than all 9 of these. 10 SENATOR ABATE: I don't have a 11 medical degree, but I will talk on the bill. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: You should chat 13 with Dr. Belmonte who comes in contact with 14 these situations almost on a daily basis and 15 says that it's absolutely necessary not only to 16 test the individual who -- the police officer 17 that perhaps has been bitten or spat upon. 18 SENATOR ABATE: I agree with 19 that, every officer must be tested. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: But also the 21 person that does that because, if that person, 22 for example, the test indicates that he or she 23 is HIV positive, with the advances that we've 24 seen now, immediate treatment with AZT, that 25 police officer's life may be saved. That's my 1 bottom line, saving that police officer's life. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 3 Senator Abate. 4 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, could the 5 Senator yield to additional questions? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 7 Senator Skelos, would you yield to additional 8 questions? 9 SENATOR SKELOS: We'll yield to 10 one more additional question. 11 SENATOR ABATE: Well, then, I'll 12 have to ask someone else to yield because I have 13 additional questions. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Well, if you 15 know the rules of the Senate, it says you're not 16 allowed to ask anyone additional questions. 17 SENATOR ABATE: Let me ask a 18 question and then if I need additional questions 19 I'll understand where you're going. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Fine. 21 SENATOR ABATE: The question is 22 where in the bill does it provide money and 23 programs to provide testing to the officers 24 themselves and where in the bill does it provide 25 for pre- and post-counseling for the officers 1 who are going through a great deal of trauma who 2 need this kind of relief? What are we doing for 3 the officer, the HIV testing? 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Most counties 5 now, through their own procedures, pay for the 6 testing of the officer if he is -- comes in 7 contact with the type of situation we've been 8 discussing. It provides counseling to these 9 officers presently. All we're doing now is 10 saying, test the person that's been arrested or 11 that's in custody also. That's the additional 12 step that we're taking here. 13 SENATOR ABATE: But there's 14 nothing in this bill that would enhance those 15 services to the officers who need immediately - 16 immediate testing, giving localities the money 17 to do that immediate testing, making sure that 18 medications and drugs are available to the 19 officers and making sure that there's counseling 20 available to those officers? Is this bill silent 21 on those issues? 22 SENATOR SKELOS: The testing will 23 be -- will occur. The results will be found and 24 it will be paid for by the county. 25 SENATOR ABATE: O.K. On the 1 bill. Thank you very much. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 3 Senator Abate, on the bill. 4 SENATOR ABATE: I agree 5 wholeheartedly with the notion that we owe an 6 immense debt of gratitude, and we have to do 7 everything we can to protect our law enforcement 8 officers so, if they have some real needs, so 9 that we can relieve their peace of mind to give 10 them some comfort we should do that and that's 11 why I support a bill which makes a lot of sense 12 because we will be giving good health 13 information to that officer if we mandate the 14 testing of defendants for TB and hepatitis. 15 But what we're doing when we say 16 that we need to test defendants in terms of HIV 17 is what my colleagues have said, the doctors 18 have said, depending on when an individual is 19 tested that person may test negative when, in 20 fact, they do have the HIV virus. We should not 21 ever sanction as a government giving -- give bad 22 information, particularly to our law enforcement 23 officers. They need accurate information so 24 they can make good and sound health decisions to 25 protect themselves. So what we should be 1 talking about is making sure the localities have 2 enough money available to, on the spot, give 3 testing to the officers who need it, to make 4 sure they have counseling available, that there 5 is enough money by the localities to deal with 6 all these other issues, to protect the peace of 7 mind of officers. 8 There's nothing in this bill that 9 does that. The response was, Well, the 10 localities have enough money now and have the 11 resources to do it. I submit the localities do 12 not have the money. There should be enough 13 programs designed where law enforcement officers 14 can meet and get that counseling separate and 15 apart from other programs that provide the 16 counseling to constituents generally. 17 If you talk to law enforcement 18 officers, they want to receive this kind of 19 counseling and testing in a -- in a -- in a very 20 private way. I don't believe that the 21 localities have these resources. We should be 22 talking about that and not giving them bad 23 information. 24 Also, we haven't gotten answers 25 today, and I think it's a major issue. What 1 will the impact of this bill be on the court 2 system, on the correction system? We heard not 3 so long ago from local jail system that they're 4 dealing with enormous overcrowding and the state 5 keeps putting more and more burdens on them in 6 terms of unfunded mandate relief. 7 This bill could, in fact, mean 8 that some people will be in the jail system 9 longer, because they refuse to be tested. The 10 judge has to make a decision. They talk about 11 24 hours and it may be longer than 24 hours. 12 Have we done a cost:benefit analysis to see if 13 this makes sense? We do know in terms of 14 health, it does not produce a sound health 15 policy. Now, let's look at what kind of 16 financial burden are we creating on the 17 locality. 18 I still argue two-thirds of a 19 loaf that we can produce today is better than no 20 loaf. If the law enforcement officers want this 21 in terms of testing with TB and hepatitis, let's 22 give it to them today and continue the debate 23 and bring in medical professionals around the 24 HIV testing. If we don't want to do it, then I 25 suspect that maybe we're only doing this for 1 political or rhetorical reasons. We don't want 2 to help law enforcement officers. I submit 3 let's separate it out, let's do something good 4 today, and let's not wait. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 6 Senator Marcellino. 7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, Mr. 8 President. 9 Senator Skelos, you're to be 10 congratulated and commended for bringing this 11 piece of legislation to the floor. One of the 12 police officers you mentioned, his spouse is one 13 of my staffers and when that incident occurred, 14 I know the pain that the family felt. I know 15 the pain that they went through for a long 16 period of time, and I know that the person who 17 inflicted the injury on the police officer plea 18 bargained, used it it as a ploy to get a lighter 19 sentence. There was no doubt about guilt and he 20 used it as a ploy and held it out and said, I 21 won't let you test me unless you give me a 22 lighter sentence. Ha! Ha! Ha! Go through the 23 pain, have all the agony, the pain that was 24 inflicted upon your family, I don't care. I'm 25 going to try to get a lighter sentence for 1 myself. 2 I think we can eliminate that by 3 this bill. This bill may not be perfect, but I 4 think it goes a long way in taking a firm step 5 in supporting our law enforcement officials. 6 These people are on the line daily, risking 7 their lives in support of everyone in this 8 chamber, and our families and those of all of 9 our constituents. They are to be not only 10 applauded, but aided in any way we can and if we 11 can make their lives easier by providing 12 whatever information a test of an individual 13 would provide them, then we should do it. We 14 should do it. And if they need counseling, they 15 may know that the results of these tests may not 16 be perfect. They know that they should get 17 tested themselves. The police departments will 18 provide and offer the counseling services for 19 their membership. They know that. 20 It's amazing to me how we are 21 willing to pass legislation for hepatitis, 22 polio, tuberculosis, or even the common cold, 23 anything we can imagine, but suddenly when you 24 mention HIV, the flags go up all over the 25 place. Nothing can be done when you mention 1 HIV. We can't test, we can't do anything 2 because HIV is a problem. I don't understand 3 that. We should help these people too. They 4 may not know they're infected. Let them know. 5 We went through this on the baby 6 AIDS bill. Let these people know they're 7 infected. Maybe they can change their life 8 style and today we know there are different 9 medications that will prevent the full-blown 10 appearance of the disease. It seems to me 11 they're getting better and better. Well, maybe 12 the testing will get better and better as we go 13 along, but at least let's do it. Let's get 14 involved. Let's not put a mask in front of our 15 face. Let's not say we can do anything but when 16 it comes it AIDS, we won't talk about it. We 17 won't do anything, and we dance around about 18 costs and all this other nonsense. 19 Ladies and gentlemen, this bill 20 is a good bill. It's time we move it. It's 21 time the other house comes to the table with the 22 legislation. Like Senator Skelos said, let them 23 pass a bill, then we'll urge them to conference 24 it, like we did the registry bill which no one 25 said we could have. We have it. 1 The conference committee system 2 works. Let's do it. We talk, we talk, we talk; 3 meanwhile, there are police officers and law 4 enforcement officials out there risking their 5 lives, and they're put through pain and anxiety 6 unnecessarily that we could possibly alleviate 7 some of it, not all the of it, but some of it 8 with this legislation. 9 I'm going to vote aye. I urge 10 all my colleagues to vote the same. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: Read 12 the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 14 act shall take effect on the 1st day of 15 November. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: Call 17 the roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 19 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 21 Senator Gold. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, Mr. 23 President. I -- I didn't have the advantage of 24 hearing a lot of the debate because of the 25 Finance hearings, but one thing I did hear from 1 Senator Skelos which I was impressed with and 2 maybe this is a place for it. I'm going to vote 3 against this because I -- I believe there are 4 some flaws in the legislation as has been 5 explained very well by Senator Abate and Senator 6 Leichter and others, but I would like to see a 7 situation if the Assembly believes they have a 8 bill that does it better, for them to pass it 9 and send it to the conference committee. 10 We've talked about conference 11 committees. We've had, I think, one or two 12 situations with it and maybe we really ought to 13 do more instead of going through the process 14 every year of having bills that come before us 15 year after year as one-house bills. 16 So, Senator Skelos, I took your 17 words very seriously. Perhaps Senator Abate and 18 others can persuade the Assembly to deal with 19 this in a different way and maybe we'll resolve 20 it into a law. I vote in the negative. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 22 Senator Paterson, to explain your vote. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 24 I was very impressed by the remarks of Senator 25 Abate, as I always am and her offer that perhaps 1 we vote on the issues that had direct 2 consequence such as the contraction of hepatitis 3 and tuberculosis, and felt, as she, that perhaps 4 the issue of HIV was a little bit more complex, 5 but since we're probably relying on the study 6 that the New York State AIDS Institute offered 7 in 1990, which demonstrated that AIDS testing 8 was not reliable within six months, what I'm in 9 formed now is that the PCR test that could be 10 taken by the individual who is charged with 11 possibly inflicting the disease could in the - 12 in its immediacy reveal not only whether or not 13 the person is HIV positive, but would reveal 14 actually whether there's even an infinitesimal 15 chance that the virus may be transferred. 16 Apparently these diseases have 17 been pared down to 300 sets of types of diseases 18 that could theoretically be transferred. If 19 that is the case, then it would mean that 20 treatment with AZT within the first 72 hours 21 could probably prevent the spread of the virus 22 and in some cases there's evidence that it might 23 kill it all. 24 Now, AZT has been effective in 25 the treatment of perhaps killing off the virus 1 to newborns where the treatment is given to the 2 mother in three to seven months of pregnancy. 3 Also there are tests that demonstrate that 4 individuals weave back and forth between HIV 5 positive and HIV negative and that whether or 6 not AZT is actually affecting the process is not 7 known. AZT is an immuno-suppressant drug which 8 treats an immuno-suppressant virus. Simply that 9 means that it exacerbates bringing down the 10 immune system and that was the problem that the 11 officer had that Senator Skelos referred to 12 because if he took AZT for six months he did 13 significant damage to his immune system without 14 knowing the results of that particular test. 15 So I think this is something that 16 merits -- merits more study. I'm certainly 17 willing to discuss it. I don't think this is an 18 annual dance. I think this is a very serious 19 problem in which people differ on their points 20 of view but are united in their desire to try to 21 bring comfort and safety to individuals who are 22 public servants who are trying to protect us. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 24 Announce the results. I'm sorry. 25 Senator Paterson. 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 2 Leichter wanted to know how I voted. I voted 3 no. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: We 5 knew that. 6 Senator DeFrancisco to explain 7 his vote. 8 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. I'm 9 going to vote in the affirmative. You know, 10 there seems to have been an awful lot of dancing 11 around this issue. I have been here about four 12 years and it's pretty obvious to me that for 13 some reason HIV is a politically protected 14 disease in the eyes of some. It seems to me if 15 you don't know all the answers, as everyone 16 seems to admit, as to treatment, and so forth, 17 you would at least want all the information you 18 could possibly get to analyze the situation and 19 why should we have a different situation with 20 certain diseases and not for one other and 21 whether or not we provide counseling for police 22 officers and provide them money and all these 23 diversions that we heard on the floor today, the 24 fact of the matter is information is important 25 in the treatment of anything, and if we have 1 someone who has committed an act which possibly 2 can transmit a disease no matter what it is, I 3 think it would be important for the medical 4 treatment to know whether or not that person has 5 that disease, and it may very well be that that 6 person may be released on bail, may have his 7 case disposed of and we may never see that 8 person again and we may never get that 9 information. 10 So for that reason, I think it's 11 very important to pass this bill in a bill that 12 really would deal with the same issue no matter 13 what happens -- what the disease happens to be. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 15 Announce the results. 16 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 17 the negative on Calendar Number 69 are Senators 18 Abate, Breslin, Connor, Dollinger, Gold, 19 Leichter, Markowitz, Montgomery, Nanula, 20 Paterson, Santiago, Seabrook, Smith and Waldon. 21 Ayes 45, nays 14. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: The 23 bill is passed. 24 The Secretary will read. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 1 86, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 114, an 2 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 3 the premium or compensation for giving bail 4 bond. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 7 Senator DeFrancisco, an explanation of Calendar 8 Number 86 has been requested by Senator 9 Paterson. 10 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Presently 11 the law allows for premiums on bail bonds in the 12 amount of 5 percent for the first $1,000 which 13 means $50, 4 percent for the next 1,000, which 14 is another $40, and 3 percent on the amounts in 15 excess of that. 16 The bill would increase the 17 premiums for the first 3,000 to 10 percent of 18 the face value. The next 7,000 would be 4 19 percent, and the next 10,000 would be 6 20 percent. 21 The reason for it is that 22 presently there is reluctance in many 23 jurisdictions, and I know for sure mine, for 24 bail bondsmen to even bother with a $1,000 bail 25 bond for a premium of $50 when most of that 1 money gets transmitted to the insurance company 2 who's posting the bond anyway and these bonds in 3 smaller amounts are not being offered and as a 4 result people are staying in jail because 5 there's not this service that is a valuable 6 service provided by bail bondsmen in the lower 7 amounts of bonds, so -- and since 40 states - 8 we have the lowest bail bond premiums in the 9 country, and I think it is unfair to those 10 having an alternative to cash to be given an 11 opportunity to get out of jail while that person 12 is accused and waiting trial, and that's the 13 reason for the bill. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: Thank 15 you, Senator DeFrancisco. 16 Read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation, 20 please. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 22 Senator Leichter, Senator DeFrancisco just gave 23 a very detailed and excellent explanation. 24 Senator Paterson. 25 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 1 if Senator DeFrancisco would yield for a 2 question. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 4 Senator DeFrancisco, would you yield for a 5 question? 6 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 8 Senator Paterson. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm concerned 10 that at the low ends where the poor and the 11 indigent are looking for the opportunity to 12 receive bail, that perhaps raising the 13 percentage might be raising it out of reach, and 14 so I was wondering if you -- have you given any 15 thought to perhaps minimizing the bail on the 16 lower ends and then increasing it at other 17 points because basically the point that you're 18 making -- your legislation is quite good and at 19 this point, particularly with respect to where 20 the insurance companies see this, it is valid. 21 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Well, it is 22 a sliding scale. The first 10 -- excuse me. 23 The first 3,000 is 10 percent, then it goes down 24 to 4 percent for the next 7- and it's a sliding 25 scale, but as far as the low end, that's where 1 the problem arises. If a judge sets a bail of 2 $1,000 cash, $1,000 bond, I think it's easier 3 under the bill to raise $100 if you get a bail 4 bond at 1,000 rather than try to find $1,000 in 5 cash and that's -- I guess the alternative of 6 not having that bond is a cash bail or pretrial 7 release which we do use substantially in 8 Onondaga County through the Probation Department 9 without having to raise any bond. So if there's 10 an indigent who's not a risk, the Probation 11 Department is likely to take that individual in 12 its program. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 14 Senator Paterson. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 16 Senator. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: Read 18 the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: Call 22 the roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll.) 24 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays 2, 25 Senators Abate and Leichter recorded in the 1 negative. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: The 3 bill is passed. 4 The Secretary will read. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 93, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 1182. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for 8 the day. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: The 10 bill is laid aside for the day. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 94, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 87-A, an act 13 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to criminal 14 possession of marijuana in the third degree. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: Read 16 the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect on the first - 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: Excuse 20 me. Senator Leichter. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm just 22 voting negative. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 24 act shall take effect on the first day of 25 November. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: Call 2 the roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll.) 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 5 Senator Waldon, to explain his vote. 6 SENATOR WALDON: Let me apologize 7 to Senator Volker because he and I concurred on 8 this issue and we're going to try to bring some 9 light to our respective positions regarding the 10 use of marijuana and, in fact, what is 11 characterized as the sale of marijuana when 12 young people -- thank you very much, Mr. 13 President. I apologize for that -- giving away 14 to others. 15 It is my belief that we can no 16 longer take a position which allows our young 17 people to think that we're sending them a signal 18 that the use of something, as they characterize 19 it, as mild as marijuana is acceptable 20 behavior. 21 It is my belief that this 22 experimentation with marijuana all too often 23 leads to the use of stronger drugs and certainly 24 those who are looking to create a clientele will 25 give away -- and everyone who has ever read 1 anything about drugs knows this to be true - 2 will give away drugs in order to create a client 3 base, and so if we in the Legislature recognize 4 that these are potential dangers to our young 5 people, we cannot afford to be soft regarding 6 even something that the youth of America claim 7 is as soft a drug as marijuana. 8 So I encourage my colleagues to 9 recognize that even social experimentation with 10 this substance creates a potential danger, not 11 just to those who use it but to those who 12 surround them and all of society, and I would 13 encourage you to join me and others in this 14 chamber who feel that the distribution, as a 15 gift or otherwise, to peers is just as dangerous 16 as someone who's running a business of selling 17 drugs and we should stop it at all costs. 18 So I encourage you to support 19 this and for us to take a step and send a signal 20 that even the use of marijuana is unacceptable 21 behavior to us as a Legislature. 22 I thank you, Mr. President, and I 23 apologize, Senator Volker. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 25 Announce the results. 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58, nays 1, 2 Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: The 4 bill is passed. 5 Senator Skelos, that completes 6 the controversial reading of the calendar. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 8 if we could return to reports of standing 9 committees, I believe there's a report of the 10 Rules Committee at the desk. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: The 12 Secretary will read. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno, 14 from the Committee on Rules, reports the 15 following bill direct to third reading: 16 Senate Print 1663, by Senator 17 Goodman, an act to amend Chapter 912 of the Laws 18 of 1920, relating to allowing and regulating 19 boxing, sparring and wrestling matches. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 21 Senator Skelos. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: I move we accept 23 the report of the Rules Committee. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: All in 25 favor of accepting the report of the Rules 1 Committee signify by saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye".) 3 Opposed, nay. 4 (There was no response.) 5 The report is accepted. 6 Senator Skelos. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Can we take up 8 the Rules report at this time. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: The 10 Secretary will read. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman 12 moves to discharge from the Committee on 13 Tourism, Recreation and Sports Development 14 Assembly Bill Number 2718 and substitute it for 15 the identical Third Reading Calendar 127. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: The 17 substitution is ordered. 18 The Secretary will read. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 127, by Member of the Assembly Kaufman, Assembly 21 Print 2718, an act to amend Chapter 912 of the 22 Laws of 1920, relating to allowing and 23 regulating boxing, sparring and wrestling 24 matches. 25 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 2 Senator Goodman, an explanation has been 3 requested from Senator Leichter. 4 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President, 5 our action today culminates what I think could 6 fairly be called a crusade of year long length 7 to do away with a sport that I have 8 characterized as nothing more than vicious human 9 cockfighting. 10 "Ultimate fighting", as it is 11 known, is a fight which has just recently been 12 held in Alabama and which had a sign above the 13 ring, I am informed, which said "Anything goes", 14 and that was not an exaggeration, Mr. President, 15 because this form of fighting is not anything 16 with which anyone in this room would normally be 17 familiar. It is not boxing. It is not 18 wrestling. It is neither the show time form of 19 wrestling, nor the Greco-Roman form of 20 wrestling. It is a vicious confrontation of two 21 individuals intent literally upon destroying one 22 another. 23 Anyone who has seen one of these 24 contests -- and I'm not sure how many of you 25 have had occasion to either rent the available 1 VHS tape from your local tape rental stores or 2 whether you've seen them on pay television or, 3 perish the thought, actually attended one, will 4 know there's an audience screaming for blood and 5 that invariably their screams are well gratified 6 by virtually the action that occurs. 7 If you'll half close your eyes 8 and visualize a television screen, I'll tell you 9 what you can see if you watch an "ultimate 10 fight". A typical one would involve two men 11 charging at one another and one will raise his 12 foot in a kick to the throat or the head of his 13 opponent and down the opponent on the mat, who 14 will then leap onto the opponent. They may 15 grapple for a time, and in the particular film 16 to which I refer which I will show you gladly in 17 my office, or at least unhappily in my office 18 since it's quite revolting, there is a 19 deliberate effort to take a fist and to pummel 20 directly the vital parts which are situated 21 between the legs of one contestant. This is 22 done repeatedly and viciously. It is done with 23 no other intent than to visit the worst kind of 24 injury upon the opponent. There is eye 25 gouging. There is head butting. There is every 1 form of attempt by one human being to literally 2 destroy another and the match is invariably 3 concluded with blood and gore all over the mat. 4 Now, the proponents of this type 5 of contest contend that this is really a very 6 innocent form of sport because no one has yet 7 been killed, but let me say that in March of 8 1956, your Senate Investigations Committee held 9 a hearing and called before it medical experts 10 to comment upon the films which we showed them 11 of these contests and they commented that in all 12 probability deaths would occur in the ring and 13 at least very severe injury could result in a 14 significant number of cases. These opinions 15 were being delivered by sophisticated ringside 16 physicians and other neurologists who observed 17 the action and felt that it is absolutely 18 subhuman. 19 Now, Mr. President, as bad as 20 this is for the contestants participating in the 21 contest, in my judgment, it has an even worse 22 effect, and that is the abominable example which 23 it sets for the youngsters of the coming 24 generation upon whom this Legislature votes $9 25 billion annually to educate and uplift them for 1 a constructive role in society. These 2 youngsters are treated to an exhibition of the 3 worst kind of sportmanship. In fact, they're 4 treated to what is nothing more nor less than a 5 barroom brawl or an alley fight of the lowest 6 conceivable type. 7 They're given the impression that 8 this is something which should be emulated and 9 the result could very well be behavior which 10 will result in injury to youngsters fighting in 11 a school yard or other places where they think 12 that these types of tactics ought to be 13 encouraged and utilized by them. 14 How many times do we see a 15 youngster with a toy gun shooting another 16 youngster? This is not a toy gun situation. 17 This is one in which kicks to various sensitive 18 body parts where the exposed Adam's apple is hit 19 and this can be a killing blow, and I just 20 cannot tell you -- words fail to describe the 21 depth of my feeling as to the undesirability of 22 this type of contest. 23 Mr. President, I'm very proud 24 that the Senate has finally seen fit to come 25 forward and to take action which will provide a 1 surgical strike to remove this cancer from the 2 body politic. We've done this in some 3 successive steps. 4 First, we passed a bill which 5 placed this type of fighting under regulation. 6 There's a misapprehension about that bill. Some 7 thought that it was a bill to permit the 8 fighting. The fighting has always been 9 permitted and the bill ought to regulate it. 10 The next step was that the State 11 Athletic Commission then proceeded to issue a 12 set of very stringent regulations which, when 13 they were about to be applied in Buffalo last 14 week, resulted in the fight promoters removing 15 the fight from Buffalo and bringing an action in 16 federal court for the purpose of seeing that 17 these fights were permitted to continue. 18 The federal district judge ruled 19 that the regulations of the State Athletic 20 Commission were appropriate and that they should 21 be enforced and not drive the fight out of the 22 state, but that's not sufficient because various 23 evasive techniques would undoubtedly be 24 identified by various of the promoters of these 25 contests to keep the sports in New York, which 1 is after all the Empire State where some of the 2 greatest boxing matches occur, and let it be 3 noted I happen to be a fan of good professional 4 boxing, and I would remind you that the Senate 5 Investigations Committee suspended boxing for 60 6 days in this state in an earlier investigation 7 when a fighter was killed in the ring and we 8 reached the conclusion that there was inadequate 9 medical supervision of these contests. 10 But, Mr. President, to wrap this 11 up, let me just say this is the worst kind of 12 conceivable public exhibition. People have 13 said, Well, shouldn't people have the right to 14 do anything they please? Well, should they? 15 Should people have the right to stage knife 16 fights in a ring? Should I have the right to 17 take a needle and insert it into your eyeball in 18 a contest to see whether I can impair your 19 vision? 20 There are certain things which 21 society sets standards for and precludes and 22 says "this is not acceptable behavior." This is 23 surely Exhibit A of that type of stricture which 24 we need to apply in the interest of good 25 government and better civic understand- ing of 1 what constitutes good, clean fighting and a 2 contest that's properly supervised. 3 And so, Mr. President, we've 4 reached the point where we now feel it is 5 imperative that we have a sweeping definitive 6 block to this. The Assembly has passed this 7 bill. The Governor, the Attorney General, the 8 mayor of the city of New York, innumer- able 9 elected officials have rallied to this standard, 10 and frankly, it's due to the outraged public 11 outcry that this whole action is now possible 12 this afternoon. 13 I want to commend the Senate for 14 considering this measure, and I want to urge 15 upon my colleagues immediate and sweeping action 16 to put an end to this scourge forthwith. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: 18 Senator Stachowski. 19 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Just, Mr. 20 President, a couple of comments on Senator 21 Goodman's remarks about ultimate fighting. 22 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President, 23 may I be forgiven? Senator, would you yield for 24 one moment? There's a rather vital part of 25 legislative intent that I want to be sure is 1 spread upon the record. It will take 30 2 seconds. 3 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Actually you 4 had most of the votes, Senator, but if you keep 5 talking you might start losing them. 6 SENATOR GOODMAN: I'll take my 7 chances on that. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: Do you 9 yield, Senator? 10 Senator Goodman. 11 SENATOR GOODMAN: I do want to 12 say, Senator, that there is one piece of 13 legislative intent which must be placed upon the 14 record very explicitly, and that is, there is no 15 intention to block this form of fighting on 16 television because we do not have the right 17 under the First Amendment to accomplish that 18 effect. 19 Therefore, let it be understood 20 that in the legislative intent of the Governor 21 whose program bill this is, and I as the sponsor 22 in the Senate, and I believe the Assembly would 23 say the same thing, cable television can 24 continue. We have no right to block this under 25 the U.S. Constitution and we don't intend to do 1 that. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: 3 Senator Stachowski. 4 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Again, Mr. 5 President, I would like to try to make just a 6 couple of comments on Senator Goodman's 7 remarks. I'm not going to vote against the 8 bill, but I would like to point out that the 9 fight last week was in Niagara Falls and the 10 people of Niagara Falls were very upset at being 11 referred to as Buffalo because it's 25 miles 12 away. 13 Secondly, I don't know which 14 famous fights he's talking about in New York 15 lately. It could be Riddick Bowe or the fight 16 that followed after the last -- you know, after 17 the big -- a lot of fights. So based on 18 security in the city of New York on boxing 19 matches now, I don't know what's worse, ultimate 20 fighting or going to a boxing match in Madison 21 Square Garden. 22 So hopefully they'll clean up 23 that while we're cleaning up ultimate fighting, 24 and then we'll have it back to regular boxing 25 that we enjoyed in New York State and that I 1 know Floyd Patterson wants to bring back to New 2 York State. 3 I vote aye on the bill. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: 5 Senator Dollinger. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 7 President, will Senator Goodman yield just to 8 two quick questions? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: 10 Senator? 11 SENATOR GOODMAN: Yes. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: The 13 Senator yields. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, you 15 said that the bill provides that it is not meant 16 to impair television, televising these images, 17 is that correct? 18 SENATOR GOODMAN: That's correct. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would that 20 apply to Pay Per View as well? 21 SENATOR GOODMAN: Yes, it would. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So it's not 23 intended to kick these matches off of Pay Per 24 View. 25 SENATOR GOODMAN: That's my 1 judgment. We don't have that power under the 2 First Amendment, Senator, and therefore that's 3 not its intent. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: If I read 5 your bill, your bill is certainly broad enough 6 to include Pay Per View, is it not? 7 SENATOR GOODMAN: We've 8 explicitly stated the legislative intent. So 9 there can be no misunderstanding of the wording 10 of the bill. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But there's 12 nothing in the term of "legislative intent" in 13 this bill that mentions it's not intended to 14 apply to Pay Per View or any other type of 15 televised -- I understand, Senator, you as the 16 sponsor of this legislation and a court looking 17 at the records of the deliberations of this body 18 would conclude that you as the sponsor did not 19 intend to affect Pay Per View but there's 20 nothing in this document that would prevent the 21 prosecution of Time Warner or MSG for putting on 22 Pay Per View an ultimate fighting match because 23 the language is broad enough. It says you 24 advance combative activity when you -- conduct 25 directed toward the creation, establishment or 1 performance toward the aforementioned premises, 2 paraphernalia, equipment, or apparatus, could 3 include television cameras, or towards the 4 solicitation or inducement of persons to attend 5 or participate. If it's participate, then they 6 could be out soliciting people to watch Pay Per 7 View. That's a solicitation to participate in 8 ultimate fighting to pay for it. It's just like 9 buying a ticket. Isn't that correct, Senator? 10 SENATOR GOODMAN: Your 11 interpretation is one which I think is laid to 12 rest by the very explicit statement I just made, 13 Senator. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. I hope 15 that -- again, through you, Mr. President - 16 that a court -- one of the things that we don't 17 do is make debate available to the court so that 18 they can figure out what statutory intent is all 19 about in New York. Maybe we should do that, 20 because I certainly read this as being broad 21 enough to affect Pay Per View here in this 22 state. 23 Let me ask one other question, 24 Senator. Is it your intention -- again through 25 the Chair, is it your intention to ban 1 promotional activities of ultimate fighting in 2 this state even if the fight doesn't occur in 3 New York? 4 SENATOR GOODMAN: Is it my 5 intention to do that? In such fashion as it may 6 not conflict with the First Amendment to the 7 Constitution, that's certainly our intention. 8 I'm not sure that under the free speech it's 9 guaranteed that if there's television 10 advertising, for example, would not be within 11 the ambit of the bill to prevent that. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 13 through you, Mr. President. Suppose there's an 14 ultimate fight in New Jersey. Can they promote 15 it in New York City under this bill? 16 SENATOR GOODMAN: The answer is 17 that if it's a free speech issue that they can, 18 yes. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. So if 20 the fight isn't held here in New York, then they 21 can still do all the promotional activities. 22 SENATOR GOODMAN: I'm not sure 23 why they would want to do that but they could. 24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, they 25 would obviously be soliciting people from New 1 York to go to the fight in New Jersey. 2 SENATOR GOODMAN: That's 3 certainly possible. Free speech guarantees your 4 right to do that, as well as to invite people to 5 a pornography show and a number of others 6 things, which you would never wish to attend, 7 Senator. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 9 you, Mr. President. I, like Senator Stachowski, 10 am not going to vote against this bill. I think 11 what's happened here is that Senator Goodman has 12 given the ultimate punch to ultimate fighting 13 here and knocked them out of New York State, 14 which I agree with. 15 I am concerned, however, because 16 I think the issue is that Pay Per View, the 17 television implications and the question of to 18 what extent you can be a promoter in New York 19 State even though the fight occurs some place 20 else, Senator, you're much more familiar with 21 that. You come from the tri-state region. You 22 know that region. You know the possibility of 23 interstate problems as well. I'm willing to 24 give the final punch to ultimate fighting, but 25 I'm not sure that this -- I think that this bill 1 could use a little further drafting to better 2 define exactly what we're trying to weed out of 3 the process. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: 5 Senator Leichter. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 7 President. Thank you. 8 I wanted to ask Senator Goodman a 9 question but before I do, I really want to say, 10 Senator, I commend you for the fight that you've 11 waged without resorting to any kicks to vital 12 parts or anything else to get this bill passed, 13 and I think it's important and I certainly 14 support you on it. 15 I just want to say, Senator, if 16 you would be so good to yield, I was concerned 17 about the questions that Senator Dollinger 18 raised. I see this is the Governor's bill. 19 Maybe it wasn't drafted by you, but I just say 20 it's not a carefully drafted bill because 21 certainly your reading of this bill would seem 22 to imply that any activity in this state related 23 to ultimate fighting, wherever, in Alabama, New 24 Jersey, and so on, could be a criminal act, and 25 I don't think it's a First Amendment issue at 1 all. It may involve interstate commerce, and so 2 on, but quite possibly some prosecutor might 3 proceed under this bill. I just think it could 4 have been more carefully drafted, but let me ask 5 you another question which sort of puzzles me. 6 The bill has a reference to 7 martial arts and the definition of martial arts 8 is in reference to organizations that put on 9 martial arts. I don't understand why that's in 10 the bill at all. 11 SENATOR GOODMAN: What I think 12 you're referring to is the definition which 13 commences on line 6 which says "A combative 14 sport shall mean any professional match or 15 exhibition other than boxing, sparring, 16 wrestling or martial arts," wherein contestants 17 do various things. It is excluding martial arts 18 which, as you know, are Judo, Tae Kwon Do or 19 other martial arts as they are so-called, not 20 boxing, not wrestling, but that special category 21 of Jiu-Jitsu, and the like. So they are 22 excluded from this bill. A Jiu-Jitsu match or a 23 Tae Kwon Do match would not be - 24 SENATOR LEICHTER: I understand 25 that, Senator, but what I'm puzzled at is you go 1 ahead and you define martial arts just as 2 matches or exhibitions sanctioned by a number of 3 organizations. So martial arts, as I understand 4 it, is in schools. There's martial arts 5 exhibits, and so on. It may be done by clubs, 6 and so on. 7 SENATOR GOODMAN: That's the 8 exclusionary clause. They are excluded from the 9 regulatory ambit of the bill. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, it says 11 that martial arts shall include any professional 12 match and exhibitions. 13 SENATOR GOODMAN: Other than 14 boxing, wrestling or - 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: No. I see 16 that, Senator. I'm referring to line 10 which 17 says "martial arts shall include any 18 professional match, exhibition sanctioned by any 19 of the following exhibitions." 20 SENATOR GOODMAN: And they are, 21 therefore, excluded from the 22 regulatory - 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: I understand. 24 My point is, Senator, that martial arts -- I 25 think some of our schools have martial arts 1 exhibits. Clubs have martial arts exhibits that 2 in no way have any relationship or reference to 3 these particular organizations, and it would 4 seem to me that you're now raising a question 5 whether these martial arts activities can 6 proceed. 7 SENATOR GOODMAN: I think quite 8 the reverse. I think what this does explicitly 9 is to exclude those types of martial arts from 10 the prohibitions contained in the bill. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well -- but 12 isn't it true, Senator, it's only the martial 13 arts that are sanctioned in exhibitions by these 14 organizations? If Junior High School 141 has a 15 martial arts exhibit - 16 SENATOR GOODMAN: It just says it 17 shall include them. It does not say that it 18 shall not include other forms of martial arts. 19 I don't think that's a problem, Senator. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, it says 21 -- if I may, Senator, it says that others may 22 be included, but you then have to apply to the 23 -- I think to the -- you have to apply to the 24 boxing commission. 25 I mean, I must say, with all due 1 respect, it's important what you've achieved. 2 We certainly have expressed our intent. I just 3 wish that the bill had been drafted maybe a 4 little more carefully and clearer because I 5 think it's going to raise some problems, and I 6 must say that last year as many of the members 7 in this house, I thought I voted for a bill to 8 ban ultimate fighting, and I know that was your 9 intent and I was somewhat embarrassed to read in 10 the paper that we had actually sanctioned it and 11 authorized it. So I -- and while that certainly 12 wasn't your intent and you brought it -- tried 13 to bring it under regulation -- I know the whole 14 sad history, and I don't mean this in any way as 15 any criticism of you because you tried to do 16 everything you possibly could. I'm just saying 17 how we word the bills obviously is very 18 important irrespective of what our intent may 19 be, and I think some of us were embarrassed last 20 year. Now, somebody could say, Well, you should 21 have to read the bill more carefully last year, 22 but it was at the end of the session and I saw 23 Senator Goodman, and I knew your good fight and 24 your intentions and they certainly are clear as 25 regard to this bill, but I just say to you that 1 I think that this bill may come back to create 2 some problems for us. At least it will stop the 3 ultimate fighting that has been planned for this 4 state and in that respect it's good, but I think 5 that we ought to be more careful, frankly, than 6 we are in this bill. 7 SENATOR GOODMAN: If that's a 8 question, let me respond briefly. As it turns 9 out, looking back in retrospect, last year's 10 bill accomplished a very salutary purpose. It 11 placed under the regulatory authority, the 12 absolute authority of the State Athletic 13 Commission, this form of contest. In so doing 14 what it inadvertently did, I grant you, is to 15 say that an individual municipality did not have 16 the right to ban it unilaterally but that would 17 require action by the State Athletic Commission 18 but let's follow what actually happened. 19 The State Athletic Commission 20 promulgated rules that were so strict that they 21 were an indispensable step toward the ultimate 22 result that we've achieved today -- or will 23 achieve, I trust, in a matter of moments, which 24 is the passage of the bill. 25 Now, as far as this is concerned, 1 your concern about the exclusion, I think is 2 explicitly taken care of by simply trying to 3 define what martial arts consists of, and in so 4 doing it speaks of several organizations which 5 have martial arts in their curricula, if you 6 please, and in so doing it does not preclude 7 other definitions from being applied. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: 9 Senator Dollinger. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 11 President, would Senator Goodman yield to just 12 one more question, an information question? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: The 14 Senator yields. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, are 16 the wrestling matches that are televised, those 17 -- I don't know whether they're called 18 professional or whether they're fake or whether 19 they're entertainment -- I know your bill 20 mentions the fact that wrestling matches are not 21 going to be included, but my question is are the 22 wrestling that appear on WWF and all those other 23 -- are they licensed by the state of New York? 24 SENATOR GOODMAN: The answer is 25 that they are and they are, as you said -- what 1 was the adjective you used? I'll call them 2 farcical. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The reason 4 why I asked the question is because they don't 5 appear to have any rules. Do those matches have 6 rules about where you can punch and kick? We're 7 not putting Hulk Hogan out of business, are we? 8 SENATOR GOODMAN: The whole thing 9 is obviously a sham for entertainment purposes 10 and what seems to be happening is not happening 11 at all. It's an illusion, a chimera. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I understand 13 that. I want to make sure that that illusion or 14 that form of entertainment isn't captured by 15 this bill. You don't intend to affect any of 16 that, what we call professional wrestling. 17 SENATOR GOODMAN: Perish the 18 thought. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Perish the 20 thought. Long live Hulk Hogan. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: 22 Senator Paterson. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 24 if Senator Goodman would yield. I thought I had 25 the answer to Senator Dollinger's question that 1 the professional wrestling matches, as they're 2 classified by the New York State Athletic 3 Commission, are considered to be exhibitions, 4 whereas the boxing matches are considered to be 5 contests. 6 So, Senator Dollinger, the 7 wrestling matches are more like these sessions. 8 They're exhibitions. We already know the 9 outcome. 10 (Laughter) 11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: Does 12 any further Senator wish to speak? Read the 13 last section -- Senator Stachowski. 14 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Just for a 15 serious note, I can explain to Senator Dollinger 16 having taken part in putting together a 17 wrestling thing last year in Buffalo where they 18 raised a lot of money for charity -- Buffalo, 19 big difference, 25, 26 miles apart, but they get 20 sanctioned by the state commission -- Athletic 21 Commission and the State Athletic Commission 22 actually usually has people there not only to 23 watch the matches but also they count the gate 24 to make sure they're getting their proper share 25 of what they're supposed to get. So it's very 1 regulated right down to the ticket dollars. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: Read 3 the last -- Senator Hoffmann. 4 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I have been 5 very quiet for awhile here. 6 Mr. President, I have some 7 familiarity with other forms of fisticuffs from 8 two different experiences since my legislative 9 tenure began, and this is an area on which I 10 want to apply a little bit of reasoning before I 11 arrive at a decision. Now I'm just going to 12 muse aloud for a minute on some of the things 13 that I've seen and observed in this chamber and 14 related to these activities. 15 In my first, I believe, term in 16 the Senate I had the distinction of being 17 appointed to a Minority task force on 18 professional wrestling. The late Senator Abe 19 Bernstein was every bit as concerned about 20 professional wrestling at that time as is the 21 good Senator from Manhattan today about the 22 ultimate fighting championship, and I remember 23 several hearings -- well, one hearing that was 24 held -- one hearing that was held in New York 25 City discussing the wrestling exhibitions and 1 there were a number of testimonies that came 2 through that hearing that stick in my mind, none 3 more so than the gentleman who described how it 4 was demeaning to him as an individual to be in 5 these exhibitions and be forced to take a fall 6 or be told by the promoter what the outcome 7 would be and he appealed to Senator Stachowski, 8 Senator Masiello, myself and Senator Montgomery, 9 along with Senator Bernstein at the Minority 10 Task Force on Professional Wrestling for 11 guidance, and we were pleased because as members 12 of the Senate Minority, people don't often ask 13 us for guidance, and we told them that if they 14 were concerned about their safety and about 15 their activity, clearly they could organize and 16 they could do something to defend their own 17 honor and they could create more stature to 18 their sport. I'm not sure that they followed 19 our direction too well. 20 Several of them came up to a 21 couple of us after the hearing was over and 22 asked if we would be willing to help them create 23 a wrestling union and there are days when I've 24 wondered what course that might have taken had I 25 taken them up on that offer, but the wrestlers 1 clearly had it within their power to enter or 2 not enter that particular activity. 3 The other area where I have 4 learned a little bit about the entertainment 5 world of the fight game comes from Canastota, 6 New York which I have proudly represented now 7 going into the 13th year. In Canastota, the 8 town fathers and mothers and many of the 9 business leaders asked me as a newly elected 10 Senator to help complete something that had 11 begun by my pred... begun by my predecessor, 12 Senator Auer, and that was the Boxing Hall of 13 Fame. 14 Now, all of you have noticed as 15 you drive west across the Thruway, or if you 16 drive east, the signs are on both sides of the 17 road, the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 18 Canastota, New York, attracts thousands of 19 people ever year for its induction ceremony. 20 Canastota is the home of the Boxing Hall of Fame 21 because it is the place where two world 22 champions grew up, Carmen Basilio and Billy 23 Backus and they were related. Carmen is Billy's 24 uncle and there are a large number of men in 25 that town who have been involved in boxing both 1 as professionals and amateurs for many years and 2 the town wanted this facility. They wanted a 3 museum to memorialize boxing because they 4 believed that this was an important part of 5 their culture and they also recognized something 6 that we should not overlook here today. It is 7 an important part of tourism activity. There 8 are so many people coming into the Boxing Hall 9 of Fame that hotels are full all the way from 10 Utica to Syracuse when the induction ceremonies 11 take place every year. 12 So I think before we casually 13 dismiss the whole ultimate fighting concept as 14 one that is just blood and guts or is blood 15 thirsty or some of the words that Senator 16 Goodman has used to describe it, we should 17 recognize that there are many people out there 18 who have decided that this is a legitimate form 19 of entertainment and it is a sport that is 20 regulated. 21 Now, while I'm musing aloud here, 22 I must also ask if, in fact, we have an Athletic 23 Commission in this state with commissioners 24 confirmed by this Senate, then why do we need to 25 supersede their power and impose additional 1 regulations? 2 It seems to me we're engaged in a 3 discussion about ending a problem that doesn't 4 exist. The Athletic Commission has already 5 taken care of this. They have impos- ed some 6 restrictions. Their restrictions were upheld by 7 the court over the wishes of the promoters and 8 the promoters chose to go elsewhere. 9 That is not to say, however, that 10 another athletic commission, or this athletic 11 commission, upon further review, might find 12 another arrangement, different types of 13 regulations that would be suitable both to the 14 promoters and to the general public and the 15 ultimate fighting games could take place in New 16 York State once again to the economic benefit of 17 New York State, and I think it's a very 18 important question that some of my colleagues 19 have raised, and I know one in the Assembly 20 raised as well. If it cannot be regulated on 21 Pay Per View, if we have no control over where 22 these events are taking elsewhere, if it's a 23 national issue and they've chosen not to do 24 anything about it in Washington, why do we want 25 to unilaterally exclude ourselves from any of 1 the economic benefits that would come from 2 staging the ultimate fighting championships here 3 in New York State? 4 So I'm very much troubled by the 5 fact that we have so many other pressing matters 6 that we could be dealing with here in New York 7 State. There are so many unreasonable things 8 that people do to each other that we could be 9 paying attention to ahead of this one. Why at 10 five minutes of 5:00 this afternoon, instead of 11 talking about the budget or the other state 12 agencies, we want to ban ultimate fighting in 13 New York State? 14 It seems not a terribly 15 productive use of our time and one that's a 16 little bit shortsighted since there is already 17 in place an entity duly empowered to regulate 18 this issue. I don't think it requires our 19 attention. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: Read 21 the last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 23 act shall take effect immediately. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: Call 25 the roll. 1 (The Secretary called the roll.) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes - 3 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: 4 Senator DeFrancisco to explain his vote. 5 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I'm going 6 to vote yes, but I -- I want to mention just a 7 couple of things that were mentioned in the 8 debate that I think were a little bit 9 inaccurate. 10 First of all, the regulations 11 were not upheld by the court. The question was 12 whether the promoters were being -- would be 13 allowed a temporary injunction to hold up the 14 enforcement of the regulations until this fight 15 took place and all the court decided was there 16 was not irreparable harm shown and moved to a 17 later date whether the regulations were 18 enforceable or not. 19 I think at that later date, 20 however, it will turn out that they are 21 enforceable and, you know, the irony of the 22 situation is that there are many, many dangerous 23 sports that are regulated in this state and 24 regulations were imposed and the promoters 25 decided they wanted to go elsewhere. That's a 1 decision that the promoters should have, but if 2 the regulations apparently were too tough and 3 because they had some of the protections that 4 maybe many of us would like to see in this type 5 of sport, regulations that may ultimately take 6 place in other states -- so I -- you know, I 7 think it's academic at this point in time 8 because promoters will not touch New York State 9 with a ten-foot pole, but when you have Niagara 10 Falls, some hotels losing 30 percent of their 11 occupancy overnight and you have bouts in boxing 12 that Senator Goodman enjoys where people have a 13 nervous breakdown and start crying to stop a 14 fight, there's a very, very thin line that we're 15 dealing with here, a very, very thin line and 16 that line is even blurred more when I still 17 watch the ultimate fight Friday night because I 18 wanted to see what we were preventing to be 19 shown in the state of New York, and I saw it on 20 the TV. 21 So the children we're trying to 22 protect, the competitors we're trying to 23 protect, all of these wonderful social benefits 24 that we're trying to impose aren't going to 25 happen because they're still going to be on TV 1 and anybody who wants to see them, child or 2 adult alike, will see them. The only difference 3 is, just like in casino gambling, the revenue is 4 going to Canada, Alabama, the Indian nations or 5 anywhere else. So we're on a high moral ground 6 and we're not doing a darn thing to promote 7 anything other than a loss of economic 8 well-being in the state of New York. 9 As I mentioned, the issue is 10 academic. No promoter under the regulations now 11 is going to have his fight here. So for that 12 reason, I'll vote yes, but it doesn't make any 13 sense because we've already regulated the sport 14 out of this state. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: 16 Results. 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: The 19 bill is passed. 20 Senator Marcellino. 21 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 22 President, can we return to reports of standing 23 committees for a report from the Veterans 24 Committee. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: The 1 Secretary will read. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Meier, 3 from the Committee on Veterans, reports the 4 following bills: 5 Senate Print 76, by Senator Levy, 6 an act to amend the Public Service Law; 7 423, by Senator Goodman, an act 8 to amend the Real Property Tax Law; 9 462, by Senator Larkin, an act to 10 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law; and 11 463, by Senator Larkin, an act to 12 amend the Education Law. 13 All bills ordered directly for 14 third reading. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: 16 Without objection, all bills ordered direct to 17 third reading. 18 Senator Marcellino. 19 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Move to 20 motions and resolutions. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: Yes. 22 Return to motions and resolutions. 23 Senator Marcellino. 24 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Senator 25 Trunzo. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: 2 Senator Trunzo. 3 SENATOR TRUNZO: Mr. President, I 4 move to amend Senate Bill Number 709-A by 5 striking out the amendment made on January 27th 6 and restore it to the original Print Number 709. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: The 8 amendment is received. 9 Senator Marcellino. 10 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 11 President, I believe there's a resolution at the 12 desk by Senator Stafford. We would like the 13 title read and the resolution adopted 14 immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: The 16 Secretary will read the title. 17 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 18 Stafford, Legislative Resoluation commemorating 19 the 200th Anniversary of the office of State 20 Comptroller. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: All in 22 favor of the resolution signify by saying aye. 23 (Response of "Aye".) 24 All opposed, nay. 25 (There was no response.) 1 The resolution is adopted. 2 Senator Marcellino. 3 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 4 President, is there any housekeeping at the 5 desk? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: No 7 housekeeping, Senator. 8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: There being 9 no further business, I move we adjourn until 10 Wednesday, February 12th, at 10:00 a.m. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOLLAND: Upon 12 motion, the Senate stands adjourned until 13 Wednesday, February 12th, at 10:00 a.m. 14 (Whereupon, at 5:01 p.m., the 15 Senate adjourned.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25