Wednesday, February 12, 1997

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 February 12, 1997 10 10:03 a.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 SENATOR CARL L. MARCELLINO, Acting President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 3 Senate will come to order. I ask everyone 4 present to please rise and repeat the Pledge of 5 Allegiance. 6 (The assemblage repeated the 7 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 8 There being -- in the absence of 9 clergy, may we all bow our heads for a moment of 10 silence. 11 (A moment of silence was 12 observed.) 13 Can we have the reading of the 14 Journal. 15 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 16 Tuesday, February 11th. The Senate met pursuant 17 to adjournment. The Journal of Monday, February 18 10th, was read and approved. Upon motion, the 19 Senate adjourned. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Without objection, the Journal stands approved 22 as read. 23 Presentation of petitions. 24 Messages from the Assembly. 25 Messages from the Governor. 1 Reports of standing committees. 2 The Secretary will read. 3 We'll go to motions and 4 resolutions. 5 The Secretary will read. 6 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Rath, 7 Legislative Resolution, commemorating March 1997 8 as Women's History Month. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Senator Rath. 11 SENATOR RATH: Yes, Mr. 12 President. I would like to encourage all of the 13 members of the Senate to join me in recognizing 14 March as Women's History Month through the 15 vehicle of the resolution that we are presenting 16 here today. 17 I don't think we need to spend 18 any time talking about the importance of this 19 particular recognition. I think what's 20 important is that we move forward asking all the 21 women of New York State to join us in this 22 recognition and, again, through the vehicle of 23 this resolution we can do it. I urge its 24 adoption. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 1 Senator Rath, are you urging all Senators to be 2 on the resolution? 3 SENATOR RATH: Yes. I'm urging 4 everyone to join me. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Okay. Then without objection, we'll place 7 everyone's name on the resolution unless the 8 desk is otherwise notified. 9 The question is on the 10 resolution. All in favor signify by saying 11 aye. 12 (Response of "Aye".) 13 Opposed, nay. 14 (There was no response.) 15 The resolution is adopted. 16 I believe we have another 17 resolution by Senator Rath. 18 SENATOR RATH: Thank you, Mr. 19 President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 21 Secretary will read the title, please. 22 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Rath, 23 Legislative Resolution, congratulating the Girl 24 Scouts of the United States of America upon the 25 occasion of its 85th Anniversary. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Senator Rath. 3 SENATOR RATH: Yes, Mr. 4 President. Like the previous resolution, the 5 Girl Scouts don't need someone like me to talk 6 about how wonderful they are and how important 7 an organization they are. I think it's 8 important that, as a governmental body, we note 9 the anniversary -- the 85th Anniversary, and 10 again, I would like all my colleagues to join me 11 on this resolution. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: All 13 right. Unless -- we'll use the same procedure 14 as before. Unless the desk is notified 15 otherwise, everyone will be placed on the 16 resolution. 17 The question is on the 18 resolution. All in favor signify by saying 19 aye. 20 (Response of "Aye".) 21 Opposed, nay. 22 (There was no response.) 23 The resolution is adopted. 24 Senator Skelos. 25 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 1 at this time if we could have the reading of the 2 non-controversial calendar. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 4 Secretary will read. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 95, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 244, an act 7 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 8 establishing a presumption that a child has been 9 permanently removed. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Read the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Call the roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 33. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 19 bill is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 96, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 333, an act 22 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 23 increasing the penalties for custodial 24 interference. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 1 Read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 3 act shall take effect on the 15th day of 4 November. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Call the roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll.) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 33. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 10 bill is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 97, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 402, an act 13 to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in relation 14 to plea bargains and felony sex offenses. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 18 act shall take effect on the first day of 19 November. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Call the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 25 bill is passed. 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 98, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 488, an 3 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in 4 relation to the collection of court-imposed 5 financial obligations. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Call the roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll.) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 15 bill is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 103, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 816, an act 18 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 19 authorizing restitution for expenses. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Read the last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 23 act shall take effect on the first day of 24 November. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 1 Call the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 5 bill is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 104, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 882, an act 8 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to the crime 9 of criminal employment. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Read the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect on the first day of 14 November. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Call the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 20 bill is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 107, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 889, an act 23 to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, the Public 24 Health Law and the Family Court Act, in relation 25 to the authorized destruction of dangerous 1 drugs. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 5 act shall take effect on the first day of 6 November. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Call the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 12 bill is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 112, by Senator Present, Senate Print 535, an 15 act authorizing the Commissioner of General 16 Services. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Lay 19 the bill aside. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 135, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 2180, an act 22 to amend Chapter 708 of the Laws of 1992. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Read the last section. 25 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Call the roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll.) 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 6 bill is passed. 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 9 bill is still passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 149, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2379, an 12 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Lay 15 the bill aside. 16 Senator Skelos, that completes 17 the non-controversial calendar. 18 Senator Skelos, may we return to 19 standing committees. We have a report at the 20 desk. 21 The Secretary will read. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese, 23 from the Committee on Elections, offers up the 24 following bills: 25 Senate Print 156, by Senator 1 Maltese, an act to amend the Election Law, in 2 relation to time of opening of polls; 3 158, by Senator Maltese, an act 4 to amend the Election Law, in relation to 5 extending filing deadlines; 6 560, by Senator Goodman, an act 7 to amend the Election Law, in relation to 8 candidate biographies; 9 912, by Senator Larkin, an act to 10 amend the Election Law, in relation to the hours 11 for voting; 12 1219, by Senator Maltese, an act 13 to amend the Election Law, in relation to party 14 recommendations; 15 1354, by Senator Maltese, an act 16 to amend the Election Law, in relation to making 17 certain technical corrections; 18 1443, by Senator Maltese, an act 19 to amend the Election Law, in relation to the 20 form of ballot; and 21 1468, by Senator Maltese, an act 22 to amend the Election Law, in relation to the 23 use of new voting systems. 24 All bills directly for third 25 reading. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: All 2 bills are direct to third reading. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Senator Skelos. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 7 Present's bill, Calendar Number 112, would you 8 lay it aside for the day. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 10 bill is laid aside for the day at the request of 11 the Acting Majority Leader. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: And at this time 13 would you take up Calendar Number 149, by 14 Senator Saland. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 16 Secretary will read. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 149, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2379, an 19 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, the 20 Executive Law, the Family Court Act and the 21 Penal Law, in relation to enacting the Juvenile 22 Justice Act of 1997. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 25 Senator Saland, an explanation has been 1 requested by Senator Paterson. 2 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 3 President. 4 Mr. President, my colleagues, the 5 bill before us currently is a Governor's program 6 bill, the Juvenile Justice Accountability and 7 Procedural Reform Act of 1997. 8 This bill reflects the coming 9 together of the Senate Majority and the 10 Governor, an issue of great importance to people 11 throughout New York State. 12 What it does, ladies and 13 gentlemen, is to attempt to take a system, a 14 juvenile justice system that substantially 15 represents a system that was created probably 16 somewhere in the area of 35 or so years ago, a 17 system that was created at the time of Ozzie and 18 Harriet's children, a system that perhaps 19 reflected the types of crimes that Ozzie and 20 Harriet's children might have been engaged in, 21 such as perhaps car theft, joyriding, petty 22 theft, truancy, a system that was not designed 23 to deal with the types of violent crime with 24 which our juvenile justice system currently 25 finds itself, a system in which not only is the 1 nature of the crime severely heinous but at 2 times gratuitous, defying logic of any of our 3 criminal justice authorities. 4 What this bill does on the one 5 hand is to create a mechanism that's going to 6 say if you're going to engage in violent 7 criminal conduct, there are going to be 8 consequences and, to that effect, what this bill 9 does is to dramatically increase penalties for 10 those who engage in violent crime. It does it 11 both on the criminal justice side of the 12 equation and the Family Court side of the 13 equation. 14 It says that if, in fact, you 15 engage in violent crime, you're going to find 16 that the law enforcement mechanism in this state 17 is going to be far better armed than it has been 18 previously to deal with that crime because, 19 among other things, it says that in Family Court 20 procedures there will be search warrants 21 available. There will similarly be the ability 22 to provide a look back in Criminal Court, for 23 instance, where there's been a Y.O. felony. If 24 you commit a second within five years, there 25 will be the ability to look back and look at the 1 prior, in effect, as a predicate. 2 There will be arrest warrant 3 procedures for juvenile delinquencies, juvenile 4 delinquency in addition to search warrant 5 procedures. There are elements of restitution 6 and community service that are added to the 7 juvenile justice portion, to the Family Court 8 procedure. There are a number of new designated 9 felonies that are added. 10 This is but a small component of 11 what happens on the Criminal Court and the 12 Family Court side, but this bill is certainly 13 not blind to the fact that these very same 14 youths are, if for no other reason than their 15 age, going to be back into the community. 16 It also recognizes the reality 17 that New York's juvenile justice system has been 18 inadequate, witnessed by the fact that New 19 York's juvenile crime rate is twice the national 20 average, that New York's juvenile homicide rate 21 is 40 percent above the national average. It 22 recognizes that it's time to leap from the 23 1960s, not merely to the 1990s but to the 21st 24 Century. 25 It recognizes that there are a 1 host of young people who engage in criminal 2 conduct, much of which is non-violent. It 3 recognizes that we have to emphasize, in 4 addition to a more stern deterrent approach to 5 those who engage in violent crime, the reality 6 that there has to be alternatives available to 7 try and direct these youths away from a life of 8 crime, keeping in mind that the recidivism rate 9 of those who go through our juvenile justice 10 system is probably somewhere in the area of 70 11 to 75 percent. 12 It also recognizes the inordinate 13 expense associated with placing juveniles in 14 secure facilities, sometimes at a cost in excess 15 of $80,000, and in using alternatives we not 16 only have a much more cost-effective means of 17 diverting young people but also affording them 18 the opportunity to take charge and control of 19 their lives and to venture out into a world in 20 which there will be opportunity for them. 21 It creates an alternatives 22 commission with appointments to be made by both 23 the Governor and the Legislature. What it does 24 is it, in effect, says we want to make sure that 25 those alternatives that this commission will 1 devise will be alternatives that, in effect, do 2 the job because it provides for an analysis and 3 review of those alternatives to ensure that they 4 are, in fact, effective. 5 It involves families in Family 6 Court proceedings. It enables families to be 7 part of the alternatives programs. It creates a 8 dispositional services plan. Far too often what 9 occurs, particularly in the Family Court side of 10 the equation, is that a youth who has committed 11 a violent act gets placed in a secure facility 12 and in a matter of months, that youth 13 disappears. The court has no idea where he or 14 she is. They are back on the street only to 15 again recidivate, engage in further criminal 16 activity and get back in that revolving door 17 that seems far too often to be the hallmark of 18 our juvenile justice system. 19 It's interesting to note that 20 under the existing law, that a young person who 21 finds himself or herself in the Family Court can 22 only be sentenced to a restrictive placement 23 where they have caused serious physical injury 24 and the person to whom they have caused that 25 injury is over the age of 62 years. 1 Now, it seems to me that the 2 logic of saying that, in effect, you get a bite 3 of the apple, to virtually come close to killing 4 somebody, in some instances, and as long as that 5 person is not over the age of 62 years, you 6 can't put them into a secure placement. What 7 this bill says is anybody who engages in that 8 kind of conduct, any youth who engages in that 9 kind of conduct will, in fact, wind up with a 10 secure placement, will find themselves not only 11 in a secure placement but one in which the 12 sentencing structure has been altered to ensure 13 that you'll serve a minimum sentence in a secure 14 facility before you have the ability to be 15 transferred into a residential facility. 16 This bill is an integrated one, 17 one which I think addresses the issue on the 18 criminal justice side very well. It addresses 19 the issue on the Family Court side. It 20 recognizes the importance and the reality of 21 alternatives as being a measure of the success 22 of any endeavor to reform the system and what it 23 basically says is we have lagged woefully beyond 24 the majority of states in this country, most of 25 whom have reformed their systems over the course 1 of the past six to eight years. This presents 2 us with the opportunity not only to join our 3 colleagues in other states but to make our 4 streets safer, to afford opportunity to young 5 people through a mechanism that's been sorely 6 lacking through this alternatives commission 7 that we will create and it says, in effect, 8 1997, after any number of years of flirting with 9 the issue, is the year in which we can finally 10 accomplish success. 11 The Speaker, Speaker Silver, as 12 recently as December of this past year, has 13 indicated his desire to deal with the issue of 14 juvenile justice. He has spoken in terms of 15 many of the things that I think you'll find in 16 this bill, and I'm hopeful that passage of this 17 bill today will be the catalyst that will ensure 18 quick and successful action and bring agreement 19 and results, the results of which, I think will 20 better the constituencies of each and every one 21 of the 61 members of this house and improve the 22 lives and lot not only of those in their 23 respective districts, not only of those who are 24 concerned about the safety of their streets but 25 again afford greater opportunity for young 1 people, those who this system can be devised to 2 ensure just that very opportunity. 3 Thank you, Mr. President. 4 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 6 Chair recognizes Senator Nozzolio. 7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. 9 Mr. President, my colleagues, I 10 rise to support this legislation. As Chairman 11 of the Crime Victims, Crime and Corrections 12 Committee, I personally wish to thank Senator 13 Saland as Chairman of the Children and Families 14 Committee for his attention to this important 15 matter, and especially I wish to thank Governor 16 Pataki for taking another step in our efforts to 17 establish zero tolerance for violence in this 18 state, first with ending work release for 19 violent criminals, secondly for establishing a 20 new era of zero tolerance for violence in 21 domestic situations, in domestic matters. This 22 is another step in establishing zero tolerance, 23 no acceptance of violence in our society. 24 It's a disturbing reality that 25 young teenagers in our state are committing an 1 alarming number of serious adult crimes. Just 2 two weeks ago a 16-year-old in Rochester was 3 violently attacked in a robbery attempt by two 4 14-year- olds. That individual lay near death, 5 fought back and is fortunately recovering but 6 nonetheless it is indicative of the type of 7 violence we're seeing in our society where young 8 people are preying on other young people in a 9 very violent way. 10 By increasing sentences for 11 juvenile offenders, establishing additional 12 victims rights procedures, encouraging parental 13 accountability in opening up our courts, we are 14 going to see with the passage of this 15 legislation landmark steps in trying to 16 eliminate youth violence. 17 Juvenile rates for violence in 18 our state and in our nation have tripled during 19 this last decade. Even though crime generally 20 is seeing a decrease, the incidence of murder, 21 robbery and rape by those who are under the age 22 of 18 has increased dramatically. 23 Mr. President, it's clear that 24 our current approach to dealing with serious 25 crime committed by youth is not working. 1 Children are representing the fastest growing 2 segment of the criminal population. 3 We need to check that growth. We 4 need to establish very reasonable laws as 5 presented here today to check that growth, and 6 that's why I think Governor Pataki's Juvenile 7 Justice Accountability and Procedural Reform Act 8 of 1997 is just the right prescription to 9 present to solve this growing problem. 10 Mr. President, thank you very 11 much for the opportunity to comment on this 12 issue. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Thank you. 15 The Chair recognizes Senator 16 Connor. 17 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. 19 Mr. President, I'm going to show 20 my age a little bit because I well remember 21 Ozzie and Harriet, and I remember how it would 22 start out in the morning with David and Ricky 23 coming down and Ozzie would be sitting there and 24 Harriet would put out a nice breakfast for Ricky 25 and David. They were nicely dressed, sent off 1 to a good public school. When Ozzie and Harriet 2 had to go out, their neighbor Thornie would come 3 over and watch the boys. When they came home 4 from school, Harriet was there to ask them how 5 school went and provide them with a snack. They 6 lived in a comfortable, supportive, warm 7 environment not free of government because I 8 said they went to a quality public school where 9 the teachers cared. They lived in a 10 neighborhood where the neighbors cared about 11 each other and they weren't teenage criminals. 12 Senator Nozzolio just said the 13 fastest growing crime -- criminal population is 14 among youth, but we have a bigger problem than 15 that, Mr. President. The fastest growing 16 portion of the New York population over the next 17 ten years, fifteen years, are youth. 18 It's estimated that while New 19 York State's population will grow overall in the 20 next 15 years by 2 percent, that portion of the 21 population that falls in the 15- to 19-year-old 22 category will increase by 21 percent. So to the 23 extent that some of the decrease we've seen in 24 crime is due to better policing, tougher laws, 25 we also all know it has something to do with 1 demographics, but the demographics, Mr. 2 President, is going to come back and bite us 3 over the next 15 years and overall in the United 4 States while crime is down, crime among youth is 5 up, albeit today's Times Union shows the latest 6 statistics -- and it's a happy statistic - 7 shows that we've actually had recently a dip in 8 youth crime as well. That's good, but I don't 9 think anyone thinks that it's a trend. 10 I pointed out the other aspect of 11 the Ozzie and Harriet life because one of my 12 colleagues gave me a statistic yesterday that 13 was rather startling. It seems that 80 percent 14 -- now, we all know, Mr. President, some of my 15 colleagues who served there, there are 150 16 Assembly Districts in New York State, 150. My 17 colleague told me that -- and you'll probably 18 hear more about this, but I just want you to 19 think about this -- that 80 percent of the 20 prison population in New York State -- and we 21 know that prison population has grown 22 exponentially in past years as we've been 23 confronted -- and even through the Cuomo years 24 of building new prisons, we're under pressure to 25 agree to more prisons now -- 80 percent of that 1 population comes from seven Assembly Districts. 2 Rather startling! Rather startling, but doesn't 3 it suggest a solution? 4 Now, I agree we should get tough 5 but taking a page from Governor Pataki, I think 6 we should get tough and smart, tough and smart 7 because with this population increase we're 8 facing in that age category in the next 15 9 years, we can't afford to put all them in jail, 10 nor can our citizens afford to be the victims, 11 but think about that statistic. Doesn't it tell 12 you where we ought to focus? 13 What stops us from focusing on 14 that? Politics, politics. In one house of the 15 Legislature, I dare say probably no one in the 16 Majority represents any of those seven Assembly 17 Districts. So I understand it's tough to go 18 home to wherever in the state and say, We want 19 to send some extra funds to these seven Assembly 20 Districts that I don't represent, that you've 21 never visited. I understand you get re-elected 22 bringing home the pork to your district, but we 23 have a responsibility, it seems to me, to 24 transcend those kind of political concerns when 25 there's such a glaring statistic that begs the 1 solution. Doesn't it beg the solution? If we 2 could only do something about education, health 3 care, opportunity, intensive work with youth and 4 children -- not youth. You know, by the time 5 you got the 12-year-old killer or the 6 13-year-old killer -- and it's why we have to 7 get tough because we do have to protect the 8 public -- but those 14-year-old killers are lost 9 causes already. A child that's so brutalized 10 that they have no empathy for a victim and can 11 commit these crimes by that age, I think any 12 psychologist would say they're probably a lost 13 cause. They're hopeless and that's why, of 14 course, we need to get tough. We have to 15 protect people, but how do we prevent this 16 enormous population of three- and four- and 17 five-year-olds and a few not yet born who will 18 be there in 10 or 15 years at 14 and 15 years 19 old, how do we stop them from going down that 20 road, because when they get there, they're lost. 21 Now, when I say get smart, I 22 think we have to look at prevention. I know - 23 I know we hear about midnight basketball and all 24 that stuff that was a big hullabaloo a couple 25 years ago in the federal crime package. I'm not 1 talking about that. I'm talking about following 2 suggestions that we get from Bill Bennett. You 3 know Bill Bennett, hardly a liberal crusader, in 4 Body Count, he talks about the need to really 5 focus on prevention. 6 The Rand Institute did some 7 amazing studies. They did some comparisons. 8 They did a two-year Rand Corporation study, 9 compared the impact of "three strikes and you're 10 out" laws, the goal being lengthy imprisonment, 11 and prevention development efforts that 12 encourage young people to stay in school that 13 teach parenting skills to high-risk families and 14 that provide preschool programs. Yes, 15 preschool. It's the three- and four- and 16 five-year-olds that you have to get these kids, 17 that you have to get control of the situation, 18 that you have to recognize some don't have 19 families. It's not that they're missing Ozzie 20 and Harriet. They don't even have one of them 21 that are effective parents. They have no 22 effective adult role model. That's the age you 23 have to catch them, if you're going to be 24 smart. 25 Rand found that California's 1 "three strike" laws averted 62 serious crimes 2 for every $1 million spent on carrying out the 3 program, building, operating prisons, and so 4 on. In comparison, the study demonstrated that 5 for every $1 million spent on programs, these 6 parenting programs and educational preschool 7 programs, 250 serious crimes were averted per 8 year through graduation incentive programs, 160 9 prevented through parent training initiatives 10 and 70 were headed off by special delinquency 11 supervision programs. 12 Even as our Division for Youth 13 director testified last week pointing to these 14 findings, the most successful programs were 15 found to prevent five times as many crimes per 16 every dollar spent in incarceration. This study 17 reinforces the growing body of research showing 18 that a human development approach works to 19 reduce youth, family and community problems. 20 Where's the prevention? Where's 21 the Majority and the Governor following good 22 conservative thinking, good conservative, 23 cutting edge thinking like you get from Bill 24 Bennett about focusing on prevention? 25 Now we're in a budget process and 1 it will be the usual fight and whatever, and 2 those programs that could do things like this 3 somehow or other will seem soft or get mushy, 4 liberal stuff. Oh, it's going to focus on some 5 inner city districts. What's that do for my 6 folks upstate, people will say. Well, I say 7 wake up. Wake up because while we have to get 8 tough, we just can't get tough enough, not tough 9 enough to deal with that bulge in the population 10 we're going to experience -- in that youth 11 population in the next ten or fifteen years, and 12 I would hope we would look at this as not an 13 issue that, Well, it doesn't affect my district, 14 what's my concern? It affects our entire state, 15 my colleagues, the entire state, and that's 16 obvious because we have this bill, this rush to 17 get tough. Fine. Get tough, but get smart. 18 Get smart, because you'll never be tough enough 19 and you'll never be able to afford fiscally 20 being tough enough to deal with this blooming 21 problem, but if we get smart now -- if we get 22 smart now, we can save a whole lot of money and 23 a whole lot of innocent victims of these crimes 24 and after all, when we get tough, yes, we 25 prevent future victims, but it's of little 1 consolation. It may be justice but it's of 2 little consolation to those who have already 3 been victims. Getting tough is always closing 4 the barn door after the livestock has escaped 5 and what your hope is, you won't have any future 6 incidents in that barn in terms of recidivism, 7 and so on, but at 15 or 16 or 17, a hardened 8 killer is a hopeless cause and we can't afford 9 to keep playing catch-up. 10 Now, you know, get tough, but if 11 we were serious about this, we wouldn't be 12 trying to do it by press release, rush the 13 Governor, Majority Republican proposal out here 14 even though the Assembly wants to get tough too 15 and they have their proposals. What we'd really 16 do if we were serious is we would legislate 17 getting tough. We would negotiate it. 18 I look at this bill -- and I 19 intend to vote for this. I intend to vote for 20 this. As I've said on other issues a year or 21 two ago, I'll vote for your press releases, but 22 let's get serious. Let's legislate, negotiate. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Excuse me, Senator Connor. Can we -- it's 25 getting a little hard to hear in the chamber, a 1 little bit of noise. Can we take the 2 conversations outside if you have to. 3 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. 4 President. 5 But let's get serious. Let's 6 look at these statistics. I recommend Body 7 Count by William Bennett to all the members of 8 this house. Let's be serious about getting 9 smart because I remember in 1978 when we got 10 tough on juvenile justice, I remember voting for 11 that. I surprised myself as well as some of my 12 colleagues voting for it. It had nothing to do 13 with the fact that I had a primary about a month 14 later and juvenile crime was in the headlines. 15 People were concerned and we got tough. We 16 provided for five years to life for youth for 17 crimes like murder. We got tough, but nobody 18 thinks secure facilities for hardened youth is 19 going to do anything more than be a prep school 20 for future crimes and nobody -- and I don't 21 think the sponsors do -- I understand we got to 22 get tough but think about it. No one can stand 23 up here and say this will solve the youth crime 24 problem for the next 15 years. Let's get 25 smart. 1 Those seven Assembly Districts, 2 we can't manage that small a piece of New York? 3 It's like three percent of the turf in New York 4 is producing 80 percent of the prisoners and we 5 can't figure out how to replow that turf and 6 reseed it and grow children there to have hope, 7 to have a future, that don't turn to crime, that 8 aren't so brutalized? 9 I remember years ago there were 10 twins in the Bronx who were both before the 11 justice system at age 16 or 17, murders, 12 muggings and the estimates were that, you know, 13 they pinned a dozen or two serious robberies and 14 a couple of murders on each of them. They 15 estimated they had been a two-person crime wave 16 and been responsible for thousands and thousands 17 of muggings, and one of the newspapers went 18 around the neighborhood, couldn't find any 19 parents at all and they came up with the 20 startling thing. At age three and a half, these 21 kids were just put out on the street and never 22 had a home. They lived on the streets in 23 doorways and alleyways of the Bronx from age 24 three and a half to four until they were finally 25 captured and incarcerated at age 16. They stole 1 food. They ate out of garbage cans until they 2 got big enough to steal food and then they stole 3 food until they got big enough to steal money 4 from people to buy food. 5 Now, who doubts that if you put a 6 child of three or four years old totally on its 7 own, that it will end up a feral being? Why 8 not? Survival. How else does a four- or five 9 or six-year-old -- can't get a job. You steal 10 and you hate the world and you have no empathy 11 for anybody else, and an old woman with a 12 pocketbook, you have no empathy for that. You 13 want the pocketbook. Why wouldn't you if that 14 was your only life experience? You never knew 15 love. You never knew anybody caring for you. 16 You never had any hope or opportunity. They had 17 never gone to school either, but since they had 18 never gone to school, nobody in the City, 19 government or anywhere knew they were truants. 20 I mean, why would they think of going to 21 school? So let's get smart. All I see here is 22 the tough part. When are we going to get smart 23 and prevent what's to come? 24 I don't want -- I don't expect to 25 be here in ten or fifteen years. I don't want 1 whoever is here to be standing up and talking 2 about the explosion of juvenile crime and how we 3 have to have even tougher laws, and that's where 4 we'll be unless we get real smart now. 5 Mr. President, I'm going to vote 6 for this. I think it's flawed in some 7 respects. I look forward to voting on the real 8 bill when people get down to legislating instead 9 of rushing to grab the headlines on who's 10 tougher and we have a real bill, but I really 11 look forward to working with whoever wants to 12 develop some very, very needed, smart, 13 innovative programs to cut this problem off at 14 the root. 15 Thank you, Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Senator Saland. 18 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 19 President. 20 I listened intently to my 21 colleague, the Minority Leader's comments, and I 22 heard him make reference to being tough and 23 smart. I heard him make reference to the fact 24 that he thought politics was standing in the 25 way, and I would suggest to the Minority Leader 1 that if this is a mere political statement - 2 and I must remind him that this quest to reform 3 the juvenile justice system began back in 1995 4 when I introduced a bill and began working 5 closely with Governor Pataki and have worked 6 continuously with he and his staff through much 7 of last year, and you may remember that this 8 house passed a bill last year, a juvenile 9 justice reform bill. So this is not a rush, as 10 you put it, to come up with a quick fix. If 11 politics is what stands in the way, I would 12 suggest to you then you vote your conscience and 13 make a statement here and now and vote against 14 this. 15 I would suggest to you that this 16 is anything but a political statement. I would 17 suggest to you that this is a well reasoned 18 statement that is not merely tough but it is 19 smart. 20 We've created a dispositional 21 services plan. You may have read the bill, but 22 let me remind you of some of the things that 23 happens. Every Family Court in this state loses 24 track of violent juveniles. They walk out the 25 door. They get placed and in a vast majority of 1 incidents within six to eight months thereafter 2 they're back in the street. The court doesn't 3 know they're there. Nobody knows they're there, 4 and they do it again and again and again. 5 Alternatives, much needed. I 6 thought I drawled at them in some length, and 7 this Governor has put his money where his mouth 8 is because this Governor, Governor George 9 Pataki, has put $2.5 million in new money for 10 alternatives and, let me add, we're not talking 11 merely about paying lip service. We want these 12 alternatives, in effect, to be the best 13 alternatives. We don't want to commit to 14 mentoring. We don't want to commit to juvenile 15 juries. We don't want to commit to day 16 detention programs. We don't want to make those 17 commitments to any of those programs unless they 18 know -- unless we know they work, and this bill 19 endeavors -- and I'm not quite sure many other 20 states have endeavored to do this -- to make 21 sure they work. We want them evaluated. We 22 want them weighed. 23 Your advocacy of the cause of 24 Bill Bennett I find really much enlightening to 25 me, and I welcome it. My recollection -- I 1 didn't read his book. You may have read it, but 2 I have seen him on the talk circuit, and I do 3 know that his emphasis was on the decay of our 4 society and on the integral role that the family 5 has played in our society, the importance of 6 parenting and the importance of family and 7 development. I don't think he was necessarily 8 committing to government intervention in each 9 and every avenue of American life. 10 It's a reality, whether you look 11 at numbers of single-family households, whether 12 you look at the enormous number of out-of 13 wedlock births ever increasing. It's a 14 frightening reality. 15 This bill endeavors to take the 16 15-, 16-year-old that you referred to as a lost 17 cause -- and I'm not prepared to admit that the 18 livestock is out of the barn and it's too late 19 to close the door because I think, whether it's 20 based on demographics or whether it's based on 21 the reality of what goes on out in the street 22 every single day, that we can and will and must 23 do better and this is the vehicle that's going 24 to provide it, and I think that it's not too 25 late to close the door. 1 Yes, there are a number of souls 2 who have been lost. There were souls who were 3 lost this decade, last decade, the prior 4 decade. This is contemporary. This endeavors 5 to provide for the bad guys and gals who are 6 saying -- that 15- and 16-year-old that you 7 described -- you're going to get treated in a 8 fashion that's more criminal in nature, more 9 corrections in nature. There are consequences 10 of your acts. You will pay for them, but for 11 each and every one of them, there are many more 12 who we have to reach out to, and the 13 alternatives mechanism is the way we do it. 14 I don't want them placed either 15 in a prison or in a secure facility. I want to 16 use alternatives whenever and however we can 17 because not only are they cost-effective, which 18 is great for the taxpayer, but they keep them 19 out of a system that to date has been a system 20 that is basically a license to recidivate. 21 So this, yes, is tough, and I'm 22 happy that it's tough, and I'm glad that the 23 Governor and my Majority Leader have helped to 24 work to bring this out here today but it's also 25 smart. It's a lot smarter than anything that's 1 been on the books of this state at any time 2 dealing with juvenile justice and it's -- I 3 welcome the opportunity to become even smarter, 4 and if the Speaker who has spoken again 5 admirably about the need for tougher juvenile 6 justice laws has more to add to this mix, I'm 7 prepared to sit down with he and his 8 representatives, as I'm sure the Governor is, 9 and craft an even better bill. 10 This is the only game in town. 11 This is nothing new. This is the third year 12 we've endeavored to bring this out and to forge 13 agreement, and I'm pleased, couldn't be happier 14 that we're here on the floor with this today. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Senator Abate. 17 SENATOR WALDON: I thought I was 18 next. I asked earlier when I came to the 19 chamber. 20 SENATOR ABATE: I would yield to 21 my colleague. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: I'm 23 sorry, Senator Waldon. We did not have your 24 name up here. 25 Senator Waldon. 1 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you. I 2 appreciate that, Senator Abate. 3 The bible says something like 4 this. "When I was a child, I spate as a child" 5 -- and I respectfully ask when I finish reading 6 this that Senator Saland yield to a question or 7 two. "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I 8 understood as a child, I thought as a child; 9 when I became a man, I put away childish 10 things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; 11 but then face to face. Now I know in part" - 12 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Excuse me, Senator Waldon. 15 Senator Saland. 16 SENATOR SALAND: I can't 17 completely hear Senator Waldon because he's 18 down. If you - 19 SENATOR WALDON: I apologize for 20 that. Sometimes you fool yourself. You think 21 because you're a certain size that your voice 22 just resonates throughout this chamber. 23 SENATOR SALAND: It's my hearing, 24 I'm sure, Senator. 25 SENATOR WALDON: We'll correct 1 that, Senator. In the Bible it reads, "When I 2 was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as 3 a child, I thought as a child; but when I became 4 a man, I put away childish things. For now we 5 see through a glass, darkly; but then face to 6 face; now I know in part; but then shall I know 7 even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, 8 hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of 9 these is charity." 10 I would like to now share another 11 thought before I ask you some questions, my dear 12 colleague. 13 SENATOR SALAND: Excuse me, 14 Senator Waldon. If that's in Hebrews, ask 15 Senator Lachman. 16 SENATOR WALDON: I beg your 17 pardon? 18 SENATOR SALAND: I said if that's 19 in Hebrews, ask Senator Lachman. 20 SENATOR WALDON: This is in St. 21 Luke 18:16, "But Jesus called unto Him, and 22 said, 'Suffer little children to come unto me 23 and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom 24 of God'". 25 Now -- could you just take this, 1 please -- if the gentleman will yield to a 2 question or two. I want to set a tone. 3 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 4 President. 5 SENATOR WALDON: I heard you 6 speaking earlier in response to what our 7 Minority Leader had said that you had not read 8 William J. Bennett's book Body Count but you are 9 familiar with him because you've seen him on 10 television, on talk shows and certainly you are 11 familiar with the Secretary, as a political 12 operative of long standing in this state, is 13 that correct? 14 SENATOR SALAND: You referred to 15 him as a political operative? 16 SENATOR WALDON: You. 17 SENATOR SALAND: I'm sorry? 18 SENATOR WALDON: That you, a 19 person in politics of long standing in this 20 state, are certainly aware of Secretary Bennett. 21 SENATOR SALAND: Oh, certainly. 22 SENATOR WALDON: As a result of 23 your awareness of him and his stature in the 24 Republican Party, do you put any credibility in 25 what he says? 1 SENATOR SALAND: I'm not quite 2 sure what the relevance of debating the comments 3 that may have been contained either in the 4 Secretary's -- former Secretary's book or on his 5 talk show circuit. I certainly believe he's a 6 bright and eloquent spokesman for many of the 7 things that he advocates. Some of them 8 certainly are integral parts of what many 9 conservatives feel are the social issues of the 10 day. 11 SENATOR WALDON: If the gentleman 12 would continue to yield. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Do 14 you continue to yield, Senator? 15 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 16 President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 18 yields, sir. 19 SENATOR WALDON: Would it 20 surprise you, Senator Saland, if in his book at 21 first blush the Secretary appears to say that 22 harsh treatment is necessary because crime of a 23 violent nature is really up amongst young people 24 and he projects in his book that not only is it 25 up now but it is really moving very rapidly up 1 towards the year 2000. 2 SENATOR SALAND: At this stage of 3 my life, Senator Waldon, there's very little 4 that surprises me. I will take it as a given if 5 you're, in fact, telling me that. It's 6 certainly consistent with what I've heard from 7 others as well. 8 SENATOR WALDON: If the gentleman 9 would continue to yield, Mr. President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Do 11 you yield, sir? 12 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 13 President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 15 yields. 16 SENATOR WALDON: Would it also be 17 intriguing for you and maybe even somewhat 18 surprising if later in his work he stated that 19 harsh treatment -- harsh treatment, long 20 sentences, taking a punitive attitude in posture 21 only is counterproductive; it is not 22 cost-effective? 23 SENATOR SALAND: Again, if you're 24 telling me that, I will accept it as it is, but 25 I full well understand, and I assume you 1 understand, that one of the cornerstones of his 2 very essence is personal responsibility. 3 Personal responsibility is, in effect, what 4 drives, as best as I understand it, the essence 5 of Bill Bennett and, if we're going to debate 6 Bill Bennett, perhaps we should do it in the 7 members' lounge and get on with the substance of 8 this bill. 9 If you're telling me, does this 10 bill that's currently before you emphasize the 11 reality of personal responsibility, I will use 12 personal responsibility as being synonymous with 13 what I said before when I said, if there are 14 acts, there are consequences. If there are 15 acts, there are consequences. I believe that is 16 something that Secretary Bennett would probably 17 embrace. 18 SENATOR WALDON: Would the 19 gentleman continue to yield, Mr. President? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Senator, do you yield? 22 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 23 President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 25 yields, sir. 1 SENATOR WALDON: I assure you, 2 Senator Saland -- and you've known me for a long 3 time from our days in the Assembly, my days 4 here, my days in the Commission of Investigation 5 for the state -- that this is not an exercise in 6 futility, and though I may go around Robin 7 Hood's barn to get to where I'm going, 8 eventually I get there. 9 Are you familiar with the recent 10 Rand report? 11 SENATOR SALAND: Which of the 12 Rand reports? 13 SENATOR WALDON: Let me see if I 14 can quote it for you. This is a Rand Corpora 15 tion study which was conducted for two years, 16 was released this past year and speaks to the 17 issues of juvenile delinquency and punishment 18 and whether or not it is cost-effective to be 19 very punitive in that approach versus using 20 models which actually turn people around. In 21 that report, it stated, in effect, that $5.5 22 billion a year in a "three strikes" program was 23 estimated to produce an annual 21 percent 24 reduction in crime. However, by spending just 25 under one billion more on youth prevention 1 programs, the study found that the potential 2 reduction in crime could rise to twice that 3 rate. You're not familiar with that study, sir? 4 SENATOR SALAND: I am aware of 5 the study. I believe the Minority Leader made 6 reference to it in his comments as well. Again, 7 this bill deals with a juvenile justice system 8 and it is not a bill which at this current phase 9 is endeavoring to augment whatever may be the 10 types of programs which I'm sure you are 11 ultimately working your way to. We're dealing 12 with the commission of crime. We're dealing 13 with how we shall treat those who commit those 14 crimes and in the case where they're juvenile 15 delinquents, how we shall treat them in a system 16 which has been, by everybody's admission, I 17 would hope, woefully inadequate and how we shall 18 craft a system that will hopefully prevent these 19 young people once they have committed some 20 misdeed from finding themselves being propelled 21 down a path of more and far more serious crime. 22 You know, the reality is that 23 this is a universal. This is not an upstate 24 problem. It's not a downstate problem. It's 25 not a Western New York problem. It's not a Long 1 Island problem. This affects each and every one 2 of us to one degree or another in our respective 3 districts. Certainly nobody, regardless of 4 where you come down in this bill, can ignore the 5 extent of the violence, nor its gratuitousness, 6 nor the frequency with which far too many are 7 repeating it. 8 If you're saying we should 9 continue down this same path and just blindly 10 ignore and rely on a system that was substan 11 tially created back in the 1960s to address 12 what's going on, then I would say you're 13 divorcing yourself from reality. If you want to 14 stick your head in the sand and let it all pass 15 you by and swing and take shots for whatever 16 reason, then I would say you serve neither this 17 house nor your own constituency by doing that. 18 I think you've got to recognize 19 the enormity of the problem. I think you can do 20 whatever you would like with your statistics, 21 but is there anybody in your district - 22 certainly there's nobody in mine -- who thinks 23 the current situation, and I think, however 24 begrudging you might want to make it, I think 25 you would have to admit that this is a far 1 better way of dealing with the problem than is 2 what -- the means by which we currently endeavor 3 as woefully as we do to deal with juvenile 4 crime. 5 SENATOR WALDON: Would the 6 gentleman continue to yield, Mr. President? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Senator, do you yield? 9 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 10 President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 12 yields. 13 SENATOR WALDON: Have you ever 14 read my report on Unhealthy Choice: Prisons over 15 Schools in New York State? 16 SENATOR SALAND: No, I have not. 17 SENATOR WALDON: Would you please 18 give the gentleman a copy of my report. I'm so 19 glad, Senator, that you said what you just said, 20 that I should not want to keep my head in the 21 sand and that if I had an answer to this 22 problem, I should listen to that answer, no 23 matter from whence it cometh. Being that you 24 made that statement and being that you're 25 carrying the Governor's program bill, I would 1 hope that you would look at this report and look 2 at the statistics and data contained therein, 3 which I guarantee you if the state of New York, 4 in its wisdom, were to adopt some of the things 5 I propose, would eradicate the need, not only 6 for these youthful prison situations and 7 treatment modalities as you are prescribing, but 8 even for our adults. 9 In the report it says that 34.5 10 percent -- and you know this as well as I - 11 state school aid goes to New York City even 12 though we have 37 percent of the student 13 population, but what is so frightening about all 14 of this is that 46 percent of the total number 15 of persons arrested in New York City live in the 16 neighborhood served by the City's 16 poorest 17 performing schools, that over half of the 18 state's prison inmate population comes from a 19 geographic area which contains 11 of these 20 schools. That's 75 percent of state prison 21 inmates have no high school diploma and that 40 22 percent of them cannot read. 23 I submit to you, Senator -- and 24 now I will ask you a question -- I submit that, 25 one, if we correct the ills of the school system 1 in these SURR schools -- Schools Under Registra 2 tion Review -- we can correct the need to build 3 prisons and to intensify punitive measures 4 regarding the youth of the state and even to 5 some extent the adults of the state. 6 Do you see -- the question is do 7 you see a correlation between criminal behavior 8 and the absence of good school systems in the 9 city of New York? You said earlier -- before 10 you answer that, by the way -- that it is not a 11 downstate or upstate problem. I totally disagree 12 because 50 percent of the jails' populations, 13 the prisons', I should say, populations in the 14 state of New York come from downstate in these 15 areas. Do you see a correlation between the 16 absence of good schools and the prison 17 population and what you're trying to do with 18 this proposal? 19 SENATOR SALAND: I think what 20 you're attempting to do, Senator, is to expand 21 the parameters of the debate surrounding this 22 bill. Certainly I would assume that you're 23 absolutely elated by the Governor's proposal in 24 his STAR program in which he proposes to 25 increase the amount of aid to the city of New 1 York to where it reflects its 37 percent student 2 population overall versus the balance of the 3 state. 4 Crime, the causation of crime, 5 certainly is something that is not readily 6 explainable. Do some of the things that occur, 7 occur because of factors that can be measured? 8 Perhaps. Do some of them occur simply because 9 somebody at a given place and a given time feels 10 that they can take advantage of a situation? 11 Perhaps. Will providing universally similar and 12 identical education to every young person in the 13 state of New York eradicate crime? You may feel 14 that perhaps it will. Can we say that the 15 failure of some of the supporting social 16 structures is what's responsible for the cause 17 or causation of crime? I think if we go that 18 far, we basically say that taken to its ultimate 19 conclusion, poverty gives license to crime. 20 Failure to create a mechanism that somehow or 21 other is totally embracing and totally 22 encompassing in providing a uniform or 23 substantial form of benefits is what's required 24 and it may well be that there are people who 25 believe that. Do I think that there are 1 disadvantaged people? Certainly there are. Do 2 I think that we can do more for disadvantaged 3 people? Certainly I do. Do I think that that 4 is the explanation that explains what's going on 5 in our criminal justice system and in our 6 juvenile system? For me that's a terrible 7 stretch. I can't go that far. 8 I certainly will take a look at 9 your report. I'm not quite sure that I will 10 necessarily concur in whatever your conclusions 11 may be, but having presented it to me, I 12 certainly will take a look at it. 13 SENATOR WALDON: I thank you very 14 much for that, Senator. 15 Would the gentleman continue to 16 yield? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Senator, do you yield? 19 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 20 President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 22 does. 23 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Saland, 24 since 1981, New York State has seen its 25 investment in correctional services increase 1 four-fold, from 435.7 million in fiscal years 2 1981-82 -- fiscal year 1981-82 to almost 1.9 3 billion last year. During that same period, 4 school aid has only slightly more than doubled 5 from 4.27 billion to 9.99 billion, a two and 6 one-third-fold increase. 7 Getting back to what I asked 8 earlier in regard to the SURR schools, in regard 9 to the overwhelming number of people who 10 populate our prisons coming from just 11 schools 11 in the districts that I mentioned, does it not 12 make some sense to you that if the emphasis were 13 on education so that these people who are in our 14 prisons who cannot read, many of them cannot 15 read, those who read, read below a fifth grade 16 level understanding of English, many of these 17 people have no possibility of coming back to 18 society and working in decent jobs because 19 there's no rehabilitation going on in our 20 prisons. The programs which work like the DETAP 21 program that D.A. Brown has in Queens County 22 where all of those in that treatment program 23 stay out of prisons in the future except ten 24 percent, whereas the recidivism rate in the 25 general population in all kinds of treatment 1 modalities is 43 percent. 2 Does it not make some sense to 3 you that there should be a greater emphasis on 4 education and on shoring up young people before 5 they reach the third grade or the fifth grade or 6 whatever age it is that will cause them to turn 7 around and not have a life of crime so that we 8 can save the massive expenses that are required 9 to build prison cells and to incarcerate people 10 on the back end? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Before you answer that question, Senator, ladies 13 and gentlemen, please, the level of noise is 14 coming back up. If we could -- so we can hear 15 the debate. 16 Senator. 17 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. 19 Senator Waldon, again, let me 20 come back to the context of this bill and this 21 bill also has an aftercare component because 22 that -- that commission is also required to 23 provide for reintegration, but let me suggest to 24 you that notwithstanding what you're saying, I 25 cannot take that last leap and get to the point 1 where I say that the inability of somebody to 2 read, the inability of somebody perhaps to -- to 3 be computer-literate, those inabilities explain 4 maiming, killing, violating other people. There 5 is no justification for that, and regardless of 6 -- from whence you come or what your background 7 may be, I can't give license to that conduct. 8 Now, if you feel that we could be 9 doing better in the kinds of programs we're 10 providing educationally to our young people, 11 particularly in some of our more hard-pressed 12 areas, I would be blind if I told you that I 13 didn't -- I was not aware of that or didn't 14 agree with that, and that's part of a process 15 that -- which is not part of what we're doing 16 with this bill. That's a budget function that 17 gets negotiated separately and independently of 18 what we're doing here today. 19 SENATOR WALDON: Would the 20 gentleman yield just to another question or two, 21 Mr. President? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator Saland, do you yield? 24 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 25 President. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 2 yields. 3 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Saland, 4 you are very informed about the costs of 5 incarcerating people in this state, even our 6 juveniles. 7 SENATOR SALAND: Even? I'm 8 sorry. I didn't hear what you said. You said 9 even-something. I didn't hear what you said. 10 SENATOR WALDON: Even juveniles. 11 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you. 12 SENATOR WALDON: So I don't have 13 to walk you through the miasma that is, you 14 know, per cell to incarcerate, whether it's a 15 secure facility or not a secure facility, how 16 much to construct, the debt service on each 17 prisoner. We don't have to go through that 18 megillah, but what I would like to address 19 momentarily is that when we have programs, 20 alternatives to incarceration, which work and 21 which are parallel or in sync' at least with 22 what the Rand Corporation study says and which a 23 very learned personality, William J. Bennett, 24 has said in his book that treatment and 25 prevention measures are much more cost-effective 1 than imprisonment and incarceration and very 2 severe punitive approaches, could we not begin 3 to focus more as a state on the alternative to 4 incarceration phase to a greater extent than has 5 been proposed, not in this legislation but as a 6 policy and a philosophy for the state of New 7 York? 8 SENATOR SALAND: I certainly 9 would welcome that discourse. I certainly am 10 well aware of the importance of alternatives and 11 they're important for more than one reason. 12 They're important not merely for, as I explained 13 earlier, providing greater opportunity for 14 people to, in effect, find the right path, a 15 more appropriate and socially acceptable path, 16 but they're also important for a very sound 17 fiscal reason. They are a heck of a lot less 18 costly than putting somebody in a secure DFY 19 placement or putting someone into a DOCS 20 facility, but we're talking to some extent 21 apples and oranges. 22 Yes, there is opportunity by way 23 of educational opportunity is important, but one 24 of the prime functions of any society is public 25 safety and you really don't have to compromise 1 one in order to accomplish the other. I don't 2 believe you have to compromise public safety in 3 order to make commitments to education. 4 SENATOR WALDON: On the bill, Mr. 5 President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Senator Waldon, on the bill. 8 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 9 much, sir. 10 First, let me thank Senator 11 Saland for his patience in responding to my 12 queries, and I appreciate the patience of my 13 colleagues in listening to this portion of the 14 debate. 15 I absolutely disagree with 16 Senator Saland. He alluded to the fact that 17 perhaps my head is in the sand and that I'm not 18 being realistic in my perception of what's going 19 on. I sincerely believe, Senator, and my 20 colleagues, that if we do not change our 21 direction, change the rhythm of what we're doing 22 in regard to incarceration, that we're going to 23 have a burden that will overwhelm us in a very 24 few years, that if we don't begin to recognize 25 that the SURR schools hold the answer, if we 1 decide to put massive resources and support 2 systems and mechanisms around those kids who are 3 in those schools, we're going to have a problem 4 that will strangle New York State shortly after 5 the turn of the century. 6 I believe that unless we as a 7 body recognize that punishment doesn't do it, 8 punishment just doesn't do it alone -- and, by 9 the way, that doesn't mean that people who are 10 violent felony offenders shouldn't be in jail. 11 Some should never come out of jail, but it does 12 mean that the approaches we're using now are 13 going to be counterproductive, not only from a 14 social and a moral aspect but from a financial 15 bottom line aspect. 16 Recognizing what happens in the 17 SURR schools and in those Assembly Districts 18 downstate where the overwhelming majority of the 19 prison population comes from and addressing the 20 needs demanded by those areas is the answer. It 21 is the key that will allow us to have more money 22 for other services needed and desired by the 23 people of the state of New York. 24 I think that what you're 25 attempting to do, Senator Saland, is certainly 1 understandable. I think I understand what the 2 Governor wants to do in the short term and in 3 the long term. I sincerely believe that you 4 believe in what you're doing and that the 5 Governor believes in what he's doing, but I 6 think someone ought to stop for a moment and 7 look at the Rand Corporation study report, read 8 William J. Bennett's book, read my report and 9 listen to those of us who advocate for 10 alternatives to incarceration, but more 11 importantly, for saving the young people. 12 Suffer the little children to come unto us. 13 I leave you with this thought 14 from my favorite poet/philosopher. "He who 15 wears his morality but as his best garment were 16 better naked." 17 Thank you very much, Mr. 18 President, my colleagues. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Thank you, Senator Waldon. 21 The Chair recognizes, with the 22 permission of Senator Abate, Senator Marchi for 23 a brief interruption. 24 SENATOR MARCHI: If the Senator 25 would yield just for the very briefest moment. 1 We're honored by the presence of people who are 2 -- hold major responsibilities in the United 3 States of Brazil because it is the United States 4 -- there is the United States of Brazil as well 5 as the United States of America -- and they're 6 here to observe and to interact with those 7 coordinating efforts that are made and if there 8 are agencies involved and the people that are 9 involved in presidential or executive and 10 legislative branches. So that they are here for 11 a period of four days and then they're going to 12 Washington and repeat that experience with major 13 exponents in the federal government, and I just 14 want to introduce them briefly because they are 15 -- they do carry important responsibilities and 16 I'm sure that all of us here on both sides of 17 the aisle are delighted that they've come and 18 visited with us, and I just wanted to introduce 19 them. 20 We have Mr. Eduardo Graeff, who's 21 currently chief congressional advisor to the 22 President of Brazil, and Ms. Rosinethe Monteiro 23 Soares, who is presently chief advisor of the 24 Liberal Party -- Liberal Front Party of Brazil, 25 and Ms. Beatriz Mendes Lacerda, who is the chief 1 of staff of Senator Jose Serra, an advisor to 2 the Federal Senate of Brazil, and Dr. Celio 3 Franca, who is advisor to the legislative 4 affairs in the ministry of the Environment of 5 Brazil. 6 I might point out that they're 7 accompanied by Walid Khayrallah, program manager 8 for the Center of Legislative Development, and 9 Peg Clement, who also holds that position as a 10 program manager at the Center for Legislative 11 Development at the University of Albany. 12 So we do appreciate your presence 13 here and we look forward to those opportunities 14 for further exchanges, and I will have one 15 shortly, and I would be very pleased, Mr. 16 President, if you would extend the greetings of 17 this Senate, all of us, to our distinguished 18 visitors and wish them a happy stay. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Thank you, Senator Marchi. 21 We congratulate our guests from 22 Brazil. We hope you enjoy your visit and hope 23 that you bring back our best regards to your 24 colleagues in your country. 25 Thank you very much and welcome. 1 (Applause) 2 Senator Markowitz. 3 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Thank you 4 very much. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Read the last section -- Senator Markowitz 7 wishes to record his vote early. 8 Senator Skelos. 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Can I have the 10 last section read. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 91. This 14 act shall take effect in 120 days. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Senator Markowitz. 17 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Senator Markowitz, you're recorded -- call the 20 roll. Please. I'm sorry. 21 (The Secretary called the roll.) 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator Markowitz, your vote is? 24 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No. Thank 25 you very much. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: His 2 vote is in the negative. We'll withdraw the 3 roll call now, please, and continue on. 4 Senator Abate. 5 SENATOR ABATE: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. 7 On the bill. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Senator Abate, on the bill. 10 SENATOR ABATE: I think one of 11 the hardest policies that we have to grapple 12 with is developing criminal justice policy. 13 It's an area that concerns just about all of us, 14 all our communities. We're talking about 15 people's quality of life, their fear, their 16 ability to live in their communities and work in 17 their communities and raise their children in a 18 manner where they can live and work safely, and 19 much of our criminal justice policy is developed 20 out of our concern for our constituents. We 21 hear their outrage. We hear their fear. We 22 hear their frustration, but our criminal justice 23 policy should not just respond to outrage. We 24 should not just do things that make us feel 25 better. We also must do things that make us 1 safer, and there's a distinction. 2 I agree with Senator Saland that 3 there are certain parts of this bill that make a 4 lot of sense. Violent youth need to be 5 punished. Many of them need to be separated. I 6 believe that crime victims need to have a role, 7 not just in our adult system but in Family 8 Court. They need to have an opportunity to be 9 heard, restitution. There are lots of things in 10 the bill that make sense. Some don't make so 11 much sense, but my problem is it goes half the 12 way. It presents half the solution. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Excuse me, Senator. Can the conversations - 15 please. 16 Thank you. 17 SENATOR ABATE: It presents half 18 the solution to an enormous problem, and I agree 19 with Senator Connor that our hope is that this 20 bill gets amended and that it deals with the 21 entire picture because it's not about just 22 dealing with the violent kids that have already 23 gotten into trouble, but we have a huge problem 24 facing us within the next ten years. While the 25 national population increases 12 percent, the 1 population of kids 15 to 19 will increase by 21 2 percent. That's an enormous number of kids of 3 crime-prone age, and so, yes, we can deal with 4 the kids today that have committed violent 5 crimes. What are we doing for the kids in our 6 communities that are growing up to ensure they 7 don't enter into Family Court, don't graduate on 8 to the adult criminal justice system and end up 9 spending their lives in DFY facilities and jail 10 and prison? 11 So while there's one half of the 12 equation dealt with, let me deal with the other 13 half that I hope will be resolved and addressed 14 over time, and that we can do it in a 15 collaborative fashion. 16 This bill talks about one-tenth 17 of one percent of the monies invested in 18 prevention and treatment. Now, everyone says, 19 you know, the Governor is talking about 20 treatment and prevention, but where is the real 21 investment, and what I still contend, whether we 22 talk about alternatives to incarceration or drug 23 treatment, probation, everyone says they agree 24 that these are important entities. We agree 25 that Family Court should be resourced. To this 1 point, I've only heard rhetoric. I've never 2 seen that rhetoric accompanied by real dollars 3 and real investment. 4 So if we really want to go away 5 from making us feel better and dealing with 6 outrage, we have to do more than what this bill 7 says. We need -- and let me give some examples 8 -- commissions. You talk to probation. You 9 talk to the chief judge. You talk to 10 commissioners around this state, ATI, pretrial 11 services, for the last 15 and 20 years, model 12 programs have been designed around what needs to 13 be done in terms of aftercare, alternatives to 14 incarceration, development of intermediate 15 sanctions. 16 In my prior life I developed 17 intermediate sanctions. I've evaluated them. 18 There's tons of information about what works and 19 what doesn't work. What we don't need is 20 another commission. What we need is real 21 dollars investing in those programs and models 22 that are out there. They need to be 23 replicated. There shouldn't be a handful of 24 them in a few communities. Every county of the 25 state should have access to this money to 1 develop these intermediate sanctions. So no 2 commission. Let's talk about a program bill 3 that puts real dollars invested in these 4 programs. 5 What this bill needs to add to 6 it, and I hope Senator Saland will develop a 7 bill and I hope you'll take some notes and maybe 8 these will be part of the next bill, is that 9 it's silent on the role of DFY to look at what 10 programs are there in building skills and 11 helping these kids stay out of trouble in the 12 future. What are we doing to make DFY more 13 productive and investing those programs that 14 work? Is there enough drug treatment? Is there 15 enough violence reduction programs? Are there 16 enough strong education programs? Are there 17 enough mental health programs in DFY? We need 18 to look at that. 19 If we're saying if someone gets 20 placed in DFY let's give up on them because they 21 made a mistake, we're making a mistake because 22 most of these kids will get to the street and 23 return to our communities. We need to help them 24 and in helping them, we help ourselves. 25 Also, one of my pet peeves -- and 1 this bill is silent -- we put all our resources 2 in the back end. I'm not going to talk about 3 what we should be doing in communities because 4 everyone knows we need quality health care. We 5 have to build stronger communities and churches 6 en masse and synagogues and hope children live 7 in communities where they can get decent 8 employment. I'm not even going back that far, 9 and prenatal care, et cetera. 10 Let's just look at the juvenile 11 criminal justice system where we're failing. 12 What happens to that young person when they make 13 their first mistake and they go to Family 14 Court? Family Court has no resources to deal 15 with that kid. That's when we should be tough. 16 That's where we should put the resources. Hold 17 kids accountable. Have programs there that 18 involve parents, involve schools, restitution, 19 community service programs. We do nothing when 20 a kid gets involved in Family Court because we 21 take all our money and put it in the back end of 22 the system and we say to that kid, you can get 23 five, six, seven bites of the apple. We're 24 going to wait 'til you commit the most heinous 25 crime and we're going to be forced to put you 1 away for a long period of time. We need to look 2 at early intervention programs when that kid 3 gets in trouble, when they're at risk in the 4 first instance. That's what we need to add to 5 this bill. 6 There are 12 counties now that 7 have a JISP program. Many judges -- and a JISP 8 program is the Juvenile Intensive Supervision 9 Program. If you ask the alternative to 10 incarceration community, if you ask the 11 probation commissioners around this state, 12 they're saying, why can't we have a JISP 13 program. The Family Court judges around the 14 state are saying, we want JISP. That's a 15 program that says they're going to supervise 16 juveniles, juvenile delinquents and case loads 17 of 15 to 1. We're going to do what we can 18 because Family Court wants this intervention but 19 there's no money in the localities to replicate 20 this program. So a lot of kids are going to DFY 21 for short stays, not getting the interventions 22 they need. We're spending $80,000 a year. JISP 23 makes sense because it teaches kids, gives them 24 some skills, gives them self-esteem, holds their 25 parents accountable, involves the schools, yet 1 we're not putting money into JISP. JISP costs 2 about $4,000 a year in New York City. Case 3 loads are 15 to 1. The judges love it. They 4 have 100 people a year. Where's the money to 5 invest in these programs? 12 counties have it. 6 Shame on us. Why don't all 62 counties of this 7 state have the opportunity for a Juvenile 8 Intensive Supervision Program? This bill is 9 silent on that. 10 Aftercare. If you ask John 11 Johnson what he needs the most, he needs money 12 for aftercare. Studies have shown, you send a 13 kid -- it's like sending someone out of 14 Corrections. If they're placed and they do some 15 time and they get back on the street, they go 16 back to the same dysfunctional life unless there 17 are supports in that community and aftercare 18 provides those supports. Study after study 19 shows that kids that have aftercare services are 20 less likely to recidivate and if they do 21 recidivate, recidivate for less serious crimes. 22 What are we doing with an aftercare component? 23 This bill is silent. 24 Again, we talk about finding 25 money for the back end of the system. Again, 1 probation reimbursement this year is cut from 32 2 percent to 25 percent. 3 I remember talking to 4 probationers, young people on probation and 5 asking them, why are you now staying out of 6 trouble? Why are you willing to become 7 productive citizens, stay in school, get off 8 drugs, learn that you can do something with your 9 lives, and they said because there was someone 10 in that community, whether it was a parent, a 11 teacher, a religious advisor, a probation 12 officer, someone who taught them to believe in 13 themselves and taught them how to do better for 14 themselves. We need to build that system early 15 on in Family Court, providing help and resources 16 to probation, not at case loads of 200 to 1 or 17 100 to 1 or 150 to 1. 18 Do you know that there are 190 - 19 maybe it's 180,000 people on probation out in 20 our communities? We talk about the 70,000 21 people incarcerated, but if we want to talk 22 about public safety and helping kids do better 23 so we are, therefore, safer, why aren't we 24 investing in probation statewide? That's why I 25 say it's pure rhetoric until we begin to invest 1 in probation. 2 Every budget year I see more 3 money going to prisons and I see less money 4 going into probation, and we have to fight every 5 year to restore those crumbs to probation. 6 That's the difference between public safety, is 7 when you invest not just in police but you need 8 to invest in probation. 9 Drug treatment. Every budget 10 year we cut drug treatment. Maybe we, after a 11 long fight, restore it. Again this year $4 12 million is cut from drug treatment. 13 So we need to strengthen our 14 response at the back end and a lot -- this bill 15 covers that, but we need to talk about the front 16 end, strengthening communities, strengthening 17 Family Court, strengthening community 18 corrections. 19 Police chiefs around the country, 20 similar to the Rand study, have been surveyed 21 and they said if we're going to deal with 22 reducing crime in the future, we must talk about 23 punishment but we must also talk about treatment 24 and prevention. So the people who know crime 25 the most who are on our front lines day in and 1 day out say we're not doing enough for treatment 2 and prevention. This state and this Legislature 3 cannot take a halfhearted approach to an issue 4 that affects so many people and so many lives 5 and it's one of the issues that really taints 6 everyone's existence. We need to take a 7 wholehearted comprehensive approach. 8 Senator Saland, I'm looking to 9 you and others in this chamber for leadership so 10 we can put a second bill that addresses some of 11 the issues we've all talked about so we can take 12 a comprehensive approach to crime fighting, and 13 the last thing that I would like to say, yes, we 14 can place and incarcerate every child at risk, 15 but if we don't do the things around treatment 16 and prevention, for every child that gets 17 placed, there's two or three other in our 18 community ready, willing and able to take 19 another bed, ready, willing and able not to 20 graduate on to higher levels of education but to 21 graduate on to higher levels of detention and 22 incarceration. 23 Let's be smart. Let's be tough 24 and let's take a full view to crime fighting. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 1 Senator Gold. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 3 President. 4 Mr. President, some things work, 5 I believe, and some things are rhetoric, and I 6 support the concepts of my Minority Leader and 7 I'm not going to go into that too much, but one 8 of the items that is in this bill which I think 9 works is addressing youthful offender treatment, 10 and I want to congratulate Senator Saland over 11 his colleagues because, while some of you are 12 still not on board, it only took Senator Saland 13 19 years to catch up with me, and this is my 14 press release from January 1977, urging that we 15 change the way youthful offender treatment is 16 given because I believe that if we do change 17 that, if word gets around the street that you do 18 not get youthful offender treatment and then 19 that's wiped out but that those people who 20 deserve it can get it but those people who have 21 made their minds up they're going to live a life 22 of crime will not get that advantage and we will 23 start treating the second crime like a real 24 second crime. I think that has deterrent effect 25 when I think that kind of word gets around. 1 So, Senator Saland, I'm delighted 2 that that's included since the likelihood of 3 your colleagues putting out my bill will not 4 come out too much. 5 Now, having made that point which 6 is very significant, the next point I would like 7 to make is that I'll stop for a minute while 8 Senator Trunzo votes. Is that okay? 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, 10 Senator Gold. 11 Mr. President, could you have the 12 last section read for the purposes of Senator 13 Trunzo voting. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 15 Secretary will read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 91. This 17 act shall take effect in 120 days. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Call the roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll.) 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Senator Trunzo, how do you vote? 23 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 25 Senator Trunzo should be recorded aye. We'll 1 record the vote. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 3 Senator Saland, I only spoke a 4 minute or so. I got your vote right away. 5 Doing good. Doing good. I just want to make a 6 point, though, about -- Senator Connor made what 7 I thought was an astonishing point when he said 8 that 80 percent of this problem is in seven 9 Assembly Districts, and so I started to think to 10 myself if I were from upstate New York, would I 11 want to go and tell my constituents that they 12 ought to spend a large amount of money - 13 because, Senator, this bill is going to cost a 14 large amount of money in prison space and in 15 care. How do I say to them that they should 16 spend a lot of money to make sure that people, 17 for example, in Harlem don't get victimized by 18 some other people who live in Harlem because, as 19 I understand it, most crime is local and people 20 commit crimes in the areas that they live, and 21 here you would go around the state in upstate 22 New York and say your pocketbook has to be 23 emptied out in order for us to protect these 24 poor minority people in areas of Brooklyn, in 25 areas of New York; but you start to understand 1 what this bill is. 2 This bill is a jobs bill. That's 3 what it is. This bill is going to cost money, 4 but the theory of this bill is that the money 5 will be spent in upstate New York where we can 6 build jails and have jobs rather than spend that 7 money in the city of New York or other places 8 where we could be doing prevention, and the 9 proof of the pudding is the testimony of the 10 head of Division for Youth at our budget 11 hearings, and Senator Stafford was there and 12 many of the members of this house were at the 13 hearing, and we were told that it's costing 14 $80,000 a year -- that's not my number - 15 $80,000 a year for the Division for Youth to 16 take care of and house someone who has gone 17 astray and someone who is in their charge, and I 18 assume that $80,000 is being spent where the 19 facility is and a lot of this is in upstate New 20 York. 21 I'm suggesting to you that the 22 proposals that were made by Senator Connor, the 23 suggestion, the overall philosophy does not cost 24 money more than this bill, and I know there's a 25 cry out there. It's a popular political cry. 1 Take a problem, give it to a liberal, they'll 2 throw money at it. 3 Well, our proposals are not 4 throwing new money. What we're suggesting is 5 instead of spending your money on the jails 6 where you're spending, according to your 7 Division for Youth head, $80,000 per person per 8 year, that you spend that money to see that it 9 never gets there because, as I've indicated - 10 if you make a motion in the courts, a clerk 11 touches the paper, another clerk touches the 12 paper. If a crime is committed, it is expensive 13 not only to the victim; it's expensive to the 14 entire system and the constituencies throughout 15 the state, through their tax dollars, are 16 supporting that system even though you may not 17 be the direct victim that day. 18 So, Senator Saland, as one of 19 your admirers, I'm glad the bill is out. I'm 20 glad it has the youthful offender piece. If it 21 doesn't pass, I'll give you the bill number I've 22 got in. There are a lot of other things in this 23 bill which really open up a good debate on an 24 issue that we should be discussing and with that 25 in mind, let's just put it where it's at. 1 This bill is really a budget 2 bill, in my opinion, that suggests a method of 3 spending money to take care of a huge problem. 4 As long as you're going to talk about spending 5 that money, I think the proposals by Senator 6 Connor and Senator Abate and others deserve 7 similar consideration. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 91. This 11 act shall take effect in 120 days. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Slow roll 13 call. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Slow roll call. Do we have five Senators 16 standing? 17 The Secretary will call the roll 18 slowly. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 20 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Alesi. 22 SENATOR ALESI: Yes. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Breslin. 24 SENATOR BRESLIN: Yes. 25 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno. 1 (There was no response.) 2 Senator Connor. 3 (There was no response.) 4 Senator Cook. 5 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 DeFrancisco. 8 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator 10 Dollinger. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: To explain my 12 vote, Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Senator Dollinger, to explain his vote. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 16 President, I'll be brief. I'm going to vote yes 17 on this bill, but I'm exceptionally cognizant of 18 the comments of my colleagues who have said that 19 juveniles in this state can rightfully look at 20 us with some skepticism when all they hear us 21 say is we're going to punish you, punish you, 22 punish you, but we're not going to give them the 23 support necessary to make the transition from a 24 child to an adult, and it seems to me -- I hope 25 that the debate will now shift if this passes 1 and some day becomes law to look to a point 2 where we'll actually take our children, 3 recognize them as our investment in the future 4 and make the investment to stabilize their lives 5 so that the temptation of crime will not exist. 6 Thank you, Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 8 voted aye. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley. 10 (There was no response.) 11 Senator Gentile. 12 SENATOR GENTILE: Yes. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gonzalez, 16 excused. 17 Senator Goodman. 18 (There was no response.) 19 Senator Hannon, excused. 20 Senator Hoffmann. 21 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Aye. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Holland. 23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. 24 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson. 25 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye. 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger. 2 SENATOR KRUGER: Yes. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 4 (There was no response.) 5 Senator Lachman. 6 SENATOR LACHMAN: Yes. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack. 8 SENATOR LACK: Aye. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin. 10 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle. 12 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell. 14 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leichter. 16 (There was no response.) 17 Senator Levy. 18 SENATOR LEVY: Aye. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous. 20 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese. 22 (There was no response.) 23 Senator Marcellino. 24 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye. 25 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 1 (There was no response.) 2 Senator Markowitz voting in the 3 negative earlier today. 4 Senator Maziarz. 5 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Meier. 7 SENATOR MEIER: Aye. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez, 9 excused. 10 Senator Montgomery. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Senator Montgomery, to explain her vote. 13 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr. 14 President. I would like to explain my vote. I 15 have an article from the New York Times, Mr. 16 President, from Monday, February 4, and it talks 17 about police -- former police officers who 18 retire and then decide that they're going to 19 become teachers in the public education system 20 in New York City, and there's a couple of 21 paragraphs that I would like to read that 22 describes an experience of a particular police 23 officer, which I think is quite revealing. 24 It says "A couple of months ago 25 Mr. Giles" -- and I'm probably mispronouncing 1 his name -- "said an 18-year-old student who had 2 recently missed a lot of school began screaming 3 at another teenager and then started fighting 4 with a dean. The teacher started talking to him 5 steadily but softly. His years of scrutinizing 6 witnesses and suspects told him there was a way 7 to get behind the boy's anger. I said, 'Where 8 have you been', Mr. Giles said. 'I kept asking 9 questions and suddenly I heard the crack in his 10 voice. He broke down and started to cry. He 11 had been thrown out of his house'", end of 12 quote, from the article. 13 I think that -- I am very, very 14 pleased with the eloquence of the way that my 15 colleague, Senator Abate, has explained the 16 issue, particularly as it relates to the 17 implications of changes in the system that we do 18 need to make. 19 I want to point out to my 20 colleagues that in the last -- this last week - 21 or I believe it was perhaps on Monday we had 22 before us three bills which I call weapons 23 proliferation bills. I believe they all passed 24 this Legislature and hopefully they won't pass 25 the Assembly, but they did pass in this house. 1 We know that we have a 50 percent 2 reduction in spending for the Board of Education 3 for at-risk youth funding. We do not have in 4 our high schools funding that allows the school 5 to offer crisis intervention for young people 6 who are in trouble. We do not have in our 7 communities facilities such as community justice 8 centers and community courts which I have had 9 teenagers ask me for because they have a need to 10 have some immediate attention paid to certain 11 issues that they run into as young people. 12 I have in certain parts of my 13 district an over 70 percent youth unemployment 14 rate. We do not have early intervention 15 programs that are in place as a permanent part 16 of our system to address the issues related to 17 what young people -- the problems that young 18 people get into. 19 About 20 years ago there was a 20 study of California youth which showed a direct 21 correlation between young people in foster care 22 and people who end up incarcerated in their 23 state prisons. 24 I have in front of me from our 25 Commissioner of Corrections where most of the 1 prisoners, the inmates come from in the state of 2 New York and 68 percent of them come from New 3 York City, and we know that this state has not 4 invested 68 percent of funding as it relates to 5 the criminal justice system to address those 6 districts where these people are coming from. 7 So I am voting against this 8 legislation. I think that it sends a message 9 that we are very much ready to punish young 10 people, to increase the number of years that we 11 will incarcerate them for whatever they do, 12 including assaulting a police officer, and 13 that's a charge that every young African 14 American male that I have ever spoken to who's 15 ever been arrested has on their record, and 16 we're willing to incarcerate them longer and 17 longer periods of time for lesser and lesser 18 crimes and we're not willing to invest $2 19 million. 20 I need $5 million to upgrade a 21 YWCA in my district, Senator Saland, that I 22 would be happy to work with you to get money to 23 do that because it serves young people in my 24 district and there are a number of other 25 facilities, and I also need more than $2 1 million, for sure, in my own district to develop 2 a facility for young people so that they can 3 remain out of trouble. 4 So as long as we have that kind 5 of commitment that we will put millions and 6 millions -- we're talking about in 2002 -- 2002 7 -- it's right here from Mr. Shechtman himself 8 -- Commissioner Goord, in 2002 we will be 9 spending $2 billion a year on a system that 10 incarcerates people and we will -- and the 11 Governor is boasting about $2 million that he is 12 willing to put into facilities for young people. 13 So I cannot vote for this bill. 14 I think it is an abomination and certainly I 15 believe you are waiting for the young people 16 from my district to fill up those prisons, and I 17 vote no. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Continue the roll call, please. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula. 21 SENATOR NANULA: Mr. President, 22 to explain my vote. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Senator Nanula, to explain his vote. 25 SENATOR NANULA: I'm going to be 1 voting for this measure today because, quite 2 frankly, I feel unfortunately in many of these 3 instances it's too late. It's too late to save 4 a young person who has turned to violent crime 5 or other types of crime of the nature that this 6 bill is addressing, but I think it's important 7 as a body. I think it's important as a 8 government, as a Legislature that we look at the 9 reasons why and that we don't just dismiss this 10 as a solution. 11 This is not the solution. Things 12 that have been discussed today, my colleague, 13 Senator Abate and others, the types of things 14 that were brought up during this debate, in my 15 opinion, are incumbent upon us to spend more 16 time and more energy, and if we can develop the 17 kind of sensitivity to searching for the reasons 18 why young people are turning to this kind of 19 violent crime, as much as we have been sensitive 20 to this bill and looking at ways in which we can 21 further incarcerate them, hopefully together we 22 can find some solutions so that these tougher 23 penalties won't have to be implemented moving 24 forward into the future. 25 Thank you. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Continue the roll call, please. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nozzolio. 4 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato. 6 SENATOR ONORATO: Aye. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Oppenheimer. 9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Explain my 10 vote. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Senator Oppenheimer, to explain her vote. 13 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I agree 14 with some of my colleagues here. I'm going to 15 be voting for the bill but, as I have often 16 said, if we could intervene in the lives of 17 these children when they are young, very young, 18 with programs like Pre-K where we can take 19 advantage of their youth, see that they get in a 20 better track than they are starting off on, if 21 we could offer more in prevention, in education, 22 I think we could see a turn-about in the 23 statistics that we are now looking at, but in 24 recognition that the problem is there and these 25 children are now in their teens and late teens, 1 I feel I have to support the bill, but I think 2 there is so much more that can be done and 3 should be done in society that has the wealth to 4 do the right job. 5 I'll be voting yes. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Continue the roll call, please. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan. 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Paterson. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: No. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present. 13 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 15 SENATOR RATH: Aye. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rosado. 17 SENATOR ROSADO: Aye. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 19 SENATOR SALAND: Aye. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sampson. 21 SENATOR SAMPSON: Explain my 22 vote. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Senator Sampson, to explain his vote. 25 SENATOR SAMPSON: I believe, my 1 colleagues, that we should be tough on 2 juveniles, but I think this is a bad bill. I 3 think it just concentrates on the issue of 4 punishing, not about early intervention or not 5 about prevention. 6 As my colleague, Senator Gold, 7 said, this is basically a budget bill. It talks 8 about -- it's telling our children that we are 9 investing in prison systems, but we are not 10 willing to invest in their education. 11 I also believe that, as Senator 12 Saland said, the Governor's willing to put his 13 money where his mouth is, approaching 2.5 14 million -- $2.5 million in alternatives. 15 However, he's willing to build -- he's calling 16 for an additional $200 million increase to build 17 state-of-the-art prison facilities. What about 18 state-of-the- art education facilities? What 19 about helping our children to get wired to the 20 Internet? This is something that we're going in 21 the wrong direction on this and, don't worry, 22 come the year 2000 we will be spending a lot 23 more money than what we are willing to spend 24 today, especially for early intervention and 25 education. 1 Thank you. I vote no. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Continue the roll call, please. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Santiago. 5 SENATOR SANTIAGO: Yes. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seabrook. 7 SENATOR SEABROOK: To explain my 8 vote. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Senator Seabrook, to explain his vote. 11 SENATOR SEABROOK: I think that 12 it is very interesting here that we're now 13 looking at the adults just losing their minds, 14 and I say that because in this bill it is 15 interesting that there was a purpose and a 16 reason why we had different rules for children 17 and while we call them children and why we call 18 people adults. 19 I think that this bill is unfair 20 and the kids are really going to see just how 21 insane we are because this bill refers to 22 children. Read the bill. It constantly talks 23 about the child and children, and all the kids 24 are asking for is to be fair. 25 If you want them tried as adults, 1 then be fair. Let them have a jury trial as you 2 have adults have jury trials. Be fair. Let 3 them be able to maneuver the system as adults. 4 The one thing we as adults have 5 done in this state is never treated them as 6 children. So we have allowed them to just be 7 adults because we've never provided them with 8 anything that would allow them to be children. 9 We've decided to spend more money on the back 10 end of the problem than the front end of the 11 problem and we spent more monies on 12 incarcerating children than we do adults. 13 If we're going to talk about 14 providing a sense of punishment equally across 15 the board, then we should treat everybody 16 fairly, but we're asking the kids to do more 17 than we allow ourselves as adults. We're 18 supposed to be the responsible ones and we're 19 saying, I want you now to be a grown-up at the 20 age of 12. I don't even want you to even think 21 about being a kid because we spend $82,000 to 22 incarcerate you and we spend less than $8200 to 23 educate you. Don't be a child. 24 So we should say it in the bill. 25 In the bill, it specifically constantly talks 1 about the child and we have yet to treat them as 2 the child. Obviously there was a reason to 3 create a court that deals with children and a 4 court that deals with adults. 5 Now, it might be a good, sound 6 publicity hit to say that we're going to be 7 tough on these kids, but if we made it equal and 8 kids messed up and they went to jail, fine, but 9 be fair to them. Give them a shot at the 10 criminal justice system like we give every 11 adult, but we haven't been fair. Treat them as 12 children. Provide them with day care. Then 13 when they screw up, provide them an early 14 childhood education. Just let them be a kid. 15 Let them grow up and if they screw up, there's a 16 reason why we said they are children and we keep 17 referring to it in the bill, "the child", "the 18 child", but now we want to treat them as 19 adults. We should say to those young adults, 20 stop calling them children in the bill. Stop 21 calling them "the child" in the bill, and I 22 think that that would be the issue. 23 So let's go across the board. 24 Everything that you provide an adult when he 25 goes to jail, provide it to the children and 1 then we will truly believe in that, and one 2 thing we must learn and understand is that we 3 will never, ever build out of this problem. We 4 thought we could do that in 1984 when there was 5 less than 30,000 people incarcerated in the 6 state of New York. You'll never build out of 7 this problem until we decide to tackle it in on 8 the basis that we believe in an educational 9 system that will produce productive individuals 10 in our society, that we will truly talk about 11 solving the problems of crime and juvenile 12 justice, but we have yet to do that when we sit 13 back and see that we give more monies to 14 programs that does nothing for children that 15 solve the problem for adults. 16 Adults can't get no tax breaks - 17 I mean, children can't get tax breaks in this 18 state but adults can get tax breaks. Businesses 19 get tax breaks. The kids don't get any break. 20 So I am saying that we have to be 21 fair and treat them as children. Every child 22 should be treated as a child first and we will 23 have juvenile delinquents on the back end. 24 There was a reason when people who had the 25 wisdom to say that there's a difference between 1 a child and an adult and it still stands, if 2 there is such a thing as a mother and a father. 3 So on this legislation, until we 4 begin to be fair and treat children as children 5 and adults should be more responsible and stop 6 acting like children, then I think that I would 7 be in support of this bill. 8 Unfortunately, this bill is 9 unfair to children, and I vote no. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Continue the roll call. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward. 13 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 17 SENATOR SMITH: No. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 19 SENATOR SPANO: Aye. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator 21 Stachowski. 22 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Aye. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford. 24 (There was no response. ) 25 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stavisky. 1 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 2 there is a lack of consistency between what the 3 bill says and what the memo says. The bill was 4 introduced on February 6th, 1997 at the request 5 of the Governor. It's only a few days later and 6 the bill makes no recognition of what is con 7 tained in the memo. 8 I believe in having the 9 substantive committee make the first decision, 10 but the memo very clearly states that the 11 extended placement provisions may impose 12 additional costs on the Division for Youth and 13 the need for the dispositional service plan will 14 add to the case loads of local probation 15 departments. 16 So this is a budget implication, 17 but there is no budget implication from the 18 Senate Finance Committee. The Senate Finance 19 Committee should have had this bill after it 20 came out of the substantive committee and we 21 should see what the full fiscal implications of 22 the measure amount to. 23 Why wasn't that done? Why weren't 24 the members of the Finance Committee of this 25 chamber given the opportunity to fill in the 1 missing information as to what the implications 2 are? So you read the bill, no reference. You 3 read the memo, and there is an acknowledgement 4 that there is a major fiscal implication. 5 We are not leaving Albany 6 forever. We're going to be here for a 7 sufficient number of weeks, and I think that on 8 something which implies in the memo that there 9 are fiscal implications for the state and 10 localities, we should have the courtesy of 11 referring a measure such as this to the Senate 12 Finance Committee. I know the Governor has made 13 a request, but it doesn't mean that we have to 14 jump every time the Governor makes a request. 15 We should be prepared to know what we're voting 16 on, to know what the cost of what we're voting 17 on really is. 18 Nevertheless, with that omission 19 which is a serious one, I'm going to vote for 20 the bill, but I'm going to suggest that, in the 21 future, legislation having a price tag of this 22 sort and acknowledged as a price tag in the 23 memo, should go to the Senate Finance Committee 24 after the substantive committee has rendered its 25 verdict. 1 I vote aye. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Continue the roll call. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo 5 voting in the affirmative earlier today. 6 Senator Tully. 7 SENATOR TULLY: Aye. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Thumbs up. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker. 12 SENATOR VOLKER: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon. 14 SENATOR WALDON: To explain my 15 vote. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Senator Waldon, to explain his vote. 18 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 19 President, and my colleagues. 20 Earlier, and I will paraphrase, 21 when I read from the Bible I read something 22 like, when I was a child I spake as a child, I 23 acted like a child, but now that I'm an adult I 24 have put away childish things, which means that 25 I will act as a responsible adult even though in 1 this chamber, in this great legislative chamber 2 imbued with the history and the challenges and 3 the accomplishments of the Senators who have 4 preceded us, who I hope thought better about 5 issues of such substantive importance than we 6 are today regarding this particular issue. 7 I see that this bill will be 8 passed in this house and so my voice is but a 9 lonely voice, but I am not intimidated by the 10 fact that I may be only one of a few voices 11 because I believe totally, absolutely and 12 unequivocally that I am right on this issue and 13 one day, if I live long enough or one day that 14 my son or my grandson lives long enough, they 15 will see that we did the righteous thing in this 16 place. 17 I would think that, if you have a 18 child, you must give that child not three 19 strikes and you're in or three strikes and 20 you're out. You must give that child a second 21 chance, but more importantly than the second 22 chance is the first chance, and so you address 23 the needs of the SURR schools, you address the 24 needs of the Assembly Districts which are 25 falling down on the heads of the children, 1 clutching them and suffocating them with too 2 much disparity and too much despair. 3 If you're going to be right and 4 righteous in this house, you will say to the 5 children, you have a God-given right to an 6 education, a meaningful education, and though 7 you are from a dysfunctional family, a single 8 parent head of household family, we the people 9 of the state will embrace you and love you and 10 ensure that you can one day be a productive 11 citizen because as the alternative, my 12 colleagues, my friends, is that if we don't do 13 that, then this child will come back and create 14 havoc for our lives, will ruin our 15 neighborhoods, will kill our parents, will kill 16 our children. 17 So what we do here with these 18 words that we throw around and bandy around so 19 easily because we're bright and intelligent and 20 sometimes do things sub rosa and subversively in 21 terms of addressing the issue which is to help 22 the children, help themselves to help us to have 23 a better society. 24 Let me leave you with the words 25 of someone far brighter than myself, far more 1 intelligent and incisive than myself, but I 2 think as the jargon of the street says, "on the 3 money". Her name was Hanna Arendt and she said, 4 and I close and I vote no, Mr. President: No 5 punishment has ever possessed enough power of 6 deterrence to prevent the commission of crimes. 7 On the contrary, whatever the punishment, once a 8 specific crime has appeared for the first time, 9 its recurrence is more likely than its initial 10 emergence could have been. 11 Thank you. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Continue the roll call, please. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright. 15 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: May 17 we call the roll of absentees on the first 18 round? 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley. 20 (There was no response. ) 21 Senator Goodman. 22 (There was no response. ) 23 Senator Kuhl. 24 (There was no response. ) 25 Senator Leichter. 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 2 President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Senator Leichter, do you wish to explain your 5 vote? 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: To explain my 7 vote. I think this bill gets an A+ on political 8 appeal. I think it gets an F for dealing with 9 the problem of juvenile violence and juvenile 10 crimes. I reject the thesis of this bill which 11 is to apply the lash. This is a punitive bill 12 and it's a bill by which this chamber, in a 13 sense, washes its hands of the problem. 14 I don't think it's the children 15 who have failed. I think it's the Legislature, 16 it's the Governor, it's the government which has 17 failed. We have families, unfortunately a large 18 number of them, that are dysfunctional. We have 19 neighborhoods that don't work. Much of that 20 problem is due to the failure on our part to 21 provide the programs, the support, the 22 services. 23 The idea that you're going to 24 take a child who comes from one of these 25 dysfunctional families in a neighborhood that 1 doesn't work and, just by the threat of greater 2 punishment, you're going to materially change 3 his or her behavior is, I think, just fool 4 hardy. 5 We may be able to go out with 6 this bill and brag that we've done something 7 about juvenile violence. We've done nothing 8 about juvenile violence. We've perpetrated the 9 continued threat to our society by a growing 10 number of violent people, many of them 11 juveniles. 12 Mr. President, I'm -- I'm very 13 sorry to see this sort of approach, and I'm very 14 sorry to see that we can in this respect avoid 15 our responsibility of really providing the sort 16 of services and programs that will keep young 17 people from becoming a threat to society, from 18 becoming asocial people. 19 I vote in the negative. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Continue the roll call. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese. 23 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye. 24 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 25 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Announce the results, please. 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47, nays 8. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 5 bill is passed. 6 Senator Skelos, that concludes 7 the reading of the controversial calendar. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 9 believe there's a privileged resolution at the 10 desk by Senator Bruno. I ask that the title be 11 read and that it would be adopted. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Secretary will read. 14 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Bruno, 15 Legislative Resolution, commending the New York 16 Chiropractic Council upon the occasion of its 17 sponsorship of the Sixth Annual H.O.P.E. Day, 18 Help Other People Eat, February 14th, 1997. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Question is on the resolution. All in favor 21 signify by saying aye. 22 (Response of "Aye.") 23 Opposed nay. 24 (There was no response. ) 25 The resolution is adopted. 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there any 3 housekeeping at the desk? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: May 5 we return to the reports of standing committees, 6 Senator Skelos. We have a report of the 7 Agriculture Committee. Secretary will read. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl, from 9 the Committee on Agriculture, offers up the 10 following bills: 11 Senate Print 545, by Senator 12 Kuhl, an act to amend the Agriculture and 13 Markets Law and the Vehicle and Traffic Law; 14 546, by Senator Kuhl, an act to 15 amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in 16 relation to the producer referendum; 17 719, by Senator Cook, an act to 18 amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in 19 relation to examination of horses. 20 All bills directly for third 21 reading. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Without objection, all bills are to be directed 24 to third reading. 25 Earlier in the statement we 1 neglected to call for reports of select 2 committees and communications and reports from 3 state officers. 4 Senator Skelos. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: In behalf of 6 Senator Bruno, there being no further business, 7 I move we adjourn until Monday, February 24th, 8 at 3:00 p.m., intervening days being legislative 9 days, and may those intervening days be 10 enjoyable days. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Thank you. 13 On motion, the Senate stands 14 adjourned until Monday, February 24th at 3:00 15 p.m., intervening days to be very enjoyable 16 legislative days. Senate is adjourned. 17 (Whereupon at 12:11 p.m., the 18 Senate adjourned. ) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25