Wednesday, March 12, 1997

1529 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ALBANY, NEW YORK 9 March 12, 1997 10 11:05 a.m. 11 12 13 REGULAR SESSION 14 15 16 17 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President 18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1530 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senate will come to order. Ask the members to 4 take their places, the staff to take their 5 places. I'd ask everybody in the chamber to 6 rise and join with me in saying the Pledge of 7 Allegiance to the Flag. 8 (The assemblage repeated the 9 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 10 In the absence of clergy, may we 11 bow our heads in a moment of silence. 12 (A moment of silence was 13 observed.) 14 The reading of the Journal. 15 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 16 Tuesday, March 11th. The Senate met pursuant to 17 adjournment. The Journal of Monday, March 10th, 18 was read and approved. On motion, the Senate 19 adjourned. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing 21 no objection, the Journal stands approved as 22 read. 23 Presentation of petitions. 24 Messages from the Assembly. 25 Messages from the Governor. 1531 1 Reports of standing committees. 2 The Secretary will read. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese, 4 from the Committee on Elections, offers up the 5 following bills: 6 Senate Print 1167, by Senator 7 Lack, an act to amend the Election Law, in 8 relation to polling places; 9 1440, by Senator Maltese, an act 10 to amend the Election Law, in relation to 11 political committees; 12 1474, by Senator Maltese, an act 13 to amend the Election Law, in relation to 14 cancellation of registration; 15 2069, by Senator Johnson, an act 16 to amend the Election Law, in relation to the 17 transmitting of certain information; 18 2651, by Senator Farley, an act 19 to amend the Election Law and the State Finance 20 Law. 21 All bills directly for third 22 reading. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 24 objection, hearing no objection, the bills are 25 ordered directly to third reading. 1532 1 Reports of select committees. 2 Communications and reports from 3 state officers. 4 Motions and resolutions. 5 Senator Skelos, we have a 6 substitution at the desk. Can we take that up. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Make the 8 substitution. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 Secretary will read the substitution. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous 12 moves to discharge from the Committee on Health 13 Assembly Bill 4394 and substitute it for the 14 identical Senate Bill 1913. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 substitution is ordered. 17 Senator Skelos. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 19 at this time if we could have a reading of the 20 non-controversial calendar. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 Secretary will read the non-controversial 23 calendar. 24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 25 36, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 355-A, an 1533 1 act to amend the General City Law and the Penal 2 Law, in relation to creating the crimes of 3 urinating in public. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 6 bill aside. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 110, by Senator Present, Senate Print 765, an 9 act to amend the State Administrative Procedure 10 Act, in relation to compliance requirements. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Secretary will read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect on the first day of 15 October. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll.) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 21 is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 150, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 366, an act 24 to amend the Education Law, in relation to 25 defining non-residents of a district for 1534 1 purposes of admission. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 4 bill aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 206, by Senator Present, Senate Print 909-A, an 7 act authorizing the Belmont Central School 8 District name change. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 Secretary will read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect on the 30th day. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll.) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 238, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 1499, an 21 act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation 22 to reimbursement of city or county medical 23 expenses. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 25 Secretary will read the last section. 1535 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 8 is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 239, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 1943, an 11 act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation 12 to authorizing the provision of Hospice. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Secretary will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll.) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 247, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 310, an act 25 to amend the Executive Law, in relation to the 1536 1 search of criminal history records. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Secretary will read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect on the first day of 6 November. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 12 is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 252, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 2144, an 15 act to amend the Banking Law and the Criminal 16 Procedure Law, in relation to the regulation of 17 licensed transmitters of money. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 19 Secretary will read the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 23 roll. 24 (The Secretary called the roll.) 25 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36. 1537 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 2 is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 253, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 2145, an 5 act to amend the Banking Law, in relation to 6 money transmitters. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Secretary will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 10 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 279, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 2396, an act 19 to amend the Village Law. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 Secretary will read the last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 23 act shall take effect immediately. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 25 roll. 1538 1 (The Secretary called the roll.) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 4 is passed. 5 Senator Skelos, that completes 6 the reading of the non-controversial calendar. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Take up the 8 controversial calendar, please. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 Secretary will read the controversial calendar, 11 beginning with Calendar Number 36, by Senator 12 Velella. 13 THE SECRETARY: On page 4, 14 Calendar Number 36, by Senator Velella, Senate 15 Print 355-A, an act to amend the General City 16 Law and the Penal Law, in relation to creating 17 the crimes of urinating in public. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside 20 temporarily. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 22 bill aside temporarily. 23 The Secretary will continue to 24 read the controversial calendar. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 1539 1 150, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 366, an act 2 to amend the Education Law, in relation to 3 defining non-residents of a district for 4 purposes of admission. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation, 6 please. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Cook, an explanation of Calendar Number 150 has 9 been requested. 10 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, 11 this bill permits a school district to charge 12 tuition for students who are residing in tax 13 exempt properties. 14 With the problems that we have of 15 trying to fund schools adequately, when we have 16 large establishments within school districts 17 which are sending substantial numbers of 18 students to the school district and are 19 contributing absolutely nothing toward the cost 20 of educating those students, it simply shifts 21 the burden to everybody else who resides there. 22 In one particular school 23 district, the assessed value of that particular 24 property is over $1 million that is off the tax 25 rolls. Conversely, there are 30 students 1540 1 attending school -- the Fallsburg School from 2 one particular property at a cost of at least 3 $100,000 per year to all the other taxpayers in 4 the school district and those students are 5 contributing absolutely nothing toward the cost 6 of their education and the property is 7 contributing nothing toward the general budget 8 of the school district. 9 So this is an attempt to remedy 10 that situation by permitting the school district 11 to charge tuition to those students who reside 12 in that type of property. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Paterson. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 16 President. 17 If Senator Cook will yield for a 18 question. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Cook, do you yield? Senator Cook yields. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 22 Senator. 23 I can certainly understand the 24 public policy of trying to make sure that any 25 students that use our public schools share in 1541 1 the cost, or at least that their families share 2 in the cost and that with the difficulty funding 3 schools, that large sums of money that would be 4 not operable because individuals are living on 5 poverty that's not taxed is -- would be a 6 significant issue. 7 My question to you is do you see 8 this legislation as the only remedy? Wouldn't 9 an impact fee or some kind of use tax that might 10 be applied more to the entity, not to the 11 individuals who are using the school, achieve 12 the same purpose and not in any way penalize 13 children from getting their education? 14 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, I 15 don't disagree with that statement. 16 Unfortunately, we have had numerous bills 17 through the years that have attempted to take 18 that type of approach to this problem. 19 We've had bills that, for 20 example, limit a -- the tax exemption to only 21 the portion of the property that's actually used 22 for the exempt purpose which would mean all the 23 residential portions of those properties where 24 people simply live would have been taxable just 25 like everyone else. That's one example. 1542 1 A second bill that we've 2 attempted to get passed limits the acreage to a 3 limited numbers of acres, except that the 4 property owner is able -- if they are able to 5 prove that additional acreage is utilized for 6 the exempt purpose, that that can be added to 7 the acreage. We have never been able to get 8 that passed as well. 9 We are attempting a third effort 10 now in a different direction because the first 11 two don't seem to meet the approval of the 12 members of the Legislature for -- or at least 13 the mechanism by which these bills get passed. 14 We have been able to get the bills out onto the 15 floor in the Senate on several occasions. Never 16 even been able to get them out of committee in 17 the Assembly. In the meantime, the other 18 taxpayers in the district where the property 19 taxes continue to escalate are paying the cost 20 of educating these students who live and are 21 getting a totally free education. 22 The irony is that people who 23 attend private schools are both paying taxes to 24 the school district and paying tuition in the 25 private schools but these people are living on a 1543 1 religious property and attending the public 2 schools and paying nothing and getting the 3 benefit of the education. So it's actually the 4 flip side of what the folks are who attend 5 private schools. So it's really trying to 6 remedy a problem in a very narrowly crafted way. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Paterson. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 10 if Senator Cook would continue to yield. 11 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 13 I'm wondering if this bill is not in many ways 14 over-reaching because, while I can understand a 15 large entity, some religious institution having 16 a number of residents on it, they're using the 17 public schools, as you said and pointed out, I 18 think very aptly, when their neighbors are not 19 only paying school taxes but maybe sending their 20 children to private school, does seem as if 21 there is a pretty severe inequity but, Senator 22 Cook, what about the local minister who just 23 lives where the religious institution is, who 24 lives next door to the church and it's on the 25 church's property? Because of the way this bill 1544 1 is laid out, it's at least my understanding that 2 that minister and his family may be charged for 3 the education of his children when their service 4 to the community may never really be repaid even 5 by the fact that the location in which they 6 reside allows them not to have to pay the school 7 taxes. 8 So what I'm saying is I think 9 this legislation is going too far and is not 10 specific, what you're probably trying to 11 address, which are those large institutions and 12 would you consider finding a way to scale the 13 legislation down so that it would coincide with 14 the entities that you're trying to address? 15 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, the 16 difficulty, Senator, as you fully recognize, is 17 the equal protection requirement. You simply 18 cannot pick out one religious organization 19 simply because they happen to have a large 20 number of students who are attending a school 21 and charge them tuition, whereas someone else 22 who maybe only has one child attending a school 23 is exempt. So, in fact, you are correct. 24 If the school district chooses to 25 charge that tuition, they do have to charge it 1545 1 to everyone who lives on an exempt property in 2 the district. That being the case, I would 3 indicate parenthetically that it is increasingly 4 the practice, at least among Protestant 5 denominations -- and generally Catholics don't 6 have children so we don't have that problem 7 there -- that they pay housing allowances and 8 the pastors actually own their own properties 9 and pay taxes on them anyway. So I think that's 10 getting to be less of a differentiation than 11 originally it was. 12 However, you are correct, of 13 course, that if a school district chose to 14 charge tuition to the students in this 15 particular institution that I'm discussing, they 16 would have to charge taxes on all the other 17 properties -- charge tuition to students 18 residing in all the other exempt properties in 19 the district. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 21 if the Senator would continue to yield. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Cook, do you continue to yield to Senator 24 Paterson? 25 SENATOR COOK: Yes, Senator 1546 1 Paterson. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senator continues to yield. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Cook, 5 I'm actually in a way disappointed that you 6 agreed with my statement, and the reason is 7 because I think that the issue that you're 8 trying to address does identify a real inequity 9 and had it been the case that perhaps some of 10 the local ministers that just live on the 11 properties of their churches -- you know, had 12 been a way to exempt them, perhaps this 13 legislation would be more appealing to me, and 14 you're probably right about the equal protection 15 clause as it would extend to those ministers, 16 which is why the nature of the bill concerns me 17 to a great degree. 18 Therefore, what I'm suggesting 19 takes us back to my original question which is 20 there's got to be some kind of substitution, 21 some kind of use tax or impact statement that 22 could be assessed to the entity rather than the 23 individuals, whereby the government would 24 collect what it needs and the children would not 25 be in any way punished, because my fear is that 1547 1 you're going to be assessing tuition to 2 individuals who can't pay them and certainly 3 their families are extending a great service to 4 the local community. 5 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, I 6 fail to see how, for example, the bill -- the 7 other bill I mentioned which said that only the 8 portion used for the tax-exempt purpose would be 9 exempt. That, of course, would also include the 10 residents of the clergy member as taxable 11 property. In fact, it would be even more so 12 because it would even include people who do not 13 have -- who are not sending children to school 14 because it would be a tax on the property. 15 Senator, let me just tell you, we 16 have been trying to deal with this problem for 17 more than a decade. We had a meeting -- and I'm 18 going into ancient history here, but we had a 19 meeting in which we called all the religious 20 organizations of the state, the Catholic 21 bishops, the Catholic churches, the Jewish 22 organizations. We had representatives of the 23 city of New York and we said to them, you know, 24 you tell us what you think would work. Their 25 response was, yes, we will try to get back to 1548 1 you and find a solution to this problem. The 2 response after all these years has been 3 absolutely nothing because they have felt that 4 they have been able to successfully so far 5 stonewall the issue and not get any action taken 6 by this Legislature. 7 In the meantime, we have folks 8 out there who are suffering under the burden of 9 property taxes who probably are less able to pay 10 the property taxes and the very people that 11 you're trying to protect in your statement and 12 who have no choice except to pay the taxes, 13 whereas the other folks are getting a free 14 ride. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Paterson. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 18 I want to thank Senator Cook for, I think, a 19 pretty thorough explanation. 20 Speaking on the bill - 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Paterson, on the bill. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: My concern 24 over this legislation is the precedent that it 25 may set. If the religious institution rents out 1549 1 the property, would we then be charging the 2 renter a tuition that they might not be able to 3 pay to send their children to the public 4 school? 5 In the situation of the minister, 6 where the salary of the minister already assumes 7 that the minister is not paying any property 8 taxes because the entity, the religious 9 institution is paying them, now we're going to 10 assess the minister a tuition cost. There are a 11 lot of ministers who serve almost at the 12 pleasure and don't really collect large sums of 13 money from their churches. So I think that the 14 problem that Senator Cook is trying to address, 15 interestingly enough, is better addressed by the 16 other pieces of legislation that he referred to 17 earlier which really would create the scenario 18 whereby the government would be collecting what 19 it certainly provides in services going around 20 what would be the -- certainly the tax exemption 21 in certain situations, but in the current piece 22 of legislation that's before us, I think it 23 would open up the door and make it very 24 difficult for a number of outstanding ministers 25 and other clergy in our institutions from 1550 1 serving us particularly well in an attempt to 2 stop a process that does need to be stopped. I 3 just think that we're going to have to find a 4 better way. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Lachman. 7 SENATOR LACHMAN: Would the 8 distinguished Chairman of the Education 9 Committee continue to yield? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Cook, do you yield to Senator Lachman? 12 SENATOR COOK: Well, I'll send 13 out and ask him if he would come in. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 Senator yields. 16 SENATOR LACHMAN: Senator Cook, 17 how many children approximately are involved in 18 this? 19 SENATOR COOK: In this particular 20 property, it's 30 -- about 30 children. 21 SENATOR LACHMAN: About 30 22 children. 23 SENATOR COOK: It varies a little 24 bit because, interestingly enough, to give a 25 little bit of the scenario, these are often 1551 1 children of very wealthy, out-of-state people 2 who simply come to this place and stay there for 3 a period of time and attend the local schools. 4 So it's sort of a changing population. 5 SENATOR LACHMAN: I'll be 6 discussing that on the bill in a few minutes. 7 Will you continue to yield for another question 8 or two? 9 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 10 SENATOR LACHMAN: Do you know of 11 any precedent in this county or in the state of 12 New York where children -- or the parents of 13 children have to pay money even though they're 14 residing in buildings which are tax-exempt, 15 thereby denying them resident status and 16 charging their children to attend the public 17 schools of the district in which they live? 18 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I don't 19 believe that's possible under present law. 20 That's what this law would -- what this bill 21 would do is change the law so that would 22 conceivably be possible. 23 SENATOR LACHMAN: So what you're 24 saying is that this is a precedent bill that 25 would change the law, not only in your district 1552 1 in reference to 30 children but would change the 2 law for the entire state of New York. 3 SENATOR COOK: That's correct, 4 Senator. I would indicate, however, Senator, 5 that the bill is a local option. In other 6 words, the district does not -- is not mandated 7 to charge tuition. It's their choice. 8 SENATOR LACHMAN: I know that you 9 have checked the constitutional issue, Senator 10 Cook, because you are a very meticulous and 11 intelligent person, but has the issue of 12 constitutionality of establishing such a 13 precedent in the state of New York arisen in 14 your deliberations regarding this bill? 15 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, the 16 issue of constitutionality is always raised 17 whenever any of these tax exemption bills comes 18 before us and, again, that is why in this case 19 we believe we have responded to that because 20 we're not taxing the exempt property, per se. 21 We're putting -- to use Senator Paterson's 22 words, we're really charging a service charge to 23 the persons who reside on those properties. 24 SENATOR LACHMAN: On the bill, 25 Mr. Chairman. 1553 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Lachman, on the bill. 3 SENATOR LACHMAN: I understand 4 Senator Cook's frustrations and the people who 5 live in South Fallsburg in Sullivan County 6 because this bill is even more complex than 7 perhaps the Senator realizes and my colleagues 8 realize. 9 It touches upon basic 10 constitutional rights and it also impacts upon 11 not only religious groups but what has been 12 called by the New York -- the publication, The 13 New Yorker, a group that might not necessarily 14 be defined in the normative terms of religion 15 but has been called by researchers a cult group. 16 Now, we are discussing a group 17 known as Syda, S-y-d-a, Syda Yoga Dam, which is 18 a multi-million-dollar complex in South 19 Fallsburg, and if I'm wrong, Senator Cook, 20 please correct me. There are ashrams now in the 21 hotel -- former hotels known as Brickman's, 22 Gilbert's and I believe the Windsor and, at any 23 one time, there could be 3,000 people at a 24 particular ashram. 25 Now, in a recent article in The 1554 1 New Yorker magazine, as well as other articles 2 that have appeared in Time Magazine and the 3 Village Voice, this group was discussed, and I 4 think the discussion impacts upon the 5 educational issue we have before us. 6 The founder -- if I may for five 7 minutes -- of Syda Yoga Dam or home of Syda Yoga 8 was Swami Muktananda who died in October of 9 1992. He came to America in 1970 and founded 10 this group. According to his will, he was 11 supposed to be succeeded by a sister and brother 12 whose names are Gurumayi and Nityananda. 13 There was a violent split between 14 these siblings, between the sister and brother 15 and the sister came out on top. Both sides have 16 accused the other side of using brainwashing, 17 sexual and physical abuse of women and children 18 and the focusing of veneration upon an 19 individual rather than a deity. Both sides, 20 according to The New Yorker article, have called 21 the other group a cult group and not a religion, 22 and that is a major issue because if it is 23 accurate, it might not have tax exemption. Some 24 have even called this group a destructive cult. 25 Now, there is an agency in New 1555 1 York State known as the Interfaith Coalition of 2 Concern About Cults which consists of 3 Protestants, Catholics, Jews, people of Eastern 4 Orthodox faith, Muslims and others and they have 5 defined the destructive cult with three 6 characteristics: 7 1. A cult is a self- -- has a 8 self-appointed Messianic leader who focuses his 9 or her follower's veneration upon him or her 10 claiming divine selection and exercising 11 autocratic control over members; 12 2. The use of deception and 13 misrepresentation for the purposes of 14 recruitment, retention and fund-raising; 15 3. Using techniques aimed at 16 controlling individuals' thought and personal 17 privacy that frequently lead to coerced 18 reconstruction of personality which means simply 19 brainwashing. 20 Some have said in articles that I 21 have read that this group falls within at least 22 two if not all three criteria of a cult group. 23 Now, the bill before us proposes 24 to punish children and parents residing in these 25 buildings which are tax-exempt by denying them 1556 1 resident status and charging them to attend the 2 public schools of the district where they 3 reside. 4 I agree with NYSUT that this 5 would be unfair, if not unconstituional. Now, 6 NYSUT recommends a use tax or impact fee upon 7 the group's properties that are tax-exempt. 8 Now, I have problems with that and I have 9 discussed it with the NYSUT representatives. 10 A use tax in this nation is 11 usually if not always used on a voluntary basis, 12 usually for water and rarely, if ever, for 13 education. Since the tax on the building could 14 be in violation of the First Amendment and the 15 tax on the children and the parents would, as 16 NYSUT states, violate the tradition of free 17 public education, I would recommend that an 18 exception be made for these 30 youngsters 19 without taxing their parents and without taxing 20 the buildings, and I recommend an exception 21 because of all the children in the state of New 22 York. If these articles that I have read are to 23 be believed, these are the children that need a 24 free public education with free inquiry and free 25 thought. That is the American way. 1557 1 I would, therefore, have to 2 oppose this legislation. Thank you. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 4 recognizes Senator Dollinger. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Will the 6 sponsor yield to a couple questions, Mr. 7 President? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Cook, do you yield to Senator Dollinger? 10 SENATOR COOK: Yes, Mr. 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 Senator yields. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, 15 could you just tell me, would this bill apply to 16 children that are in group homes in a school 17 district if that group home is owned by the 18 state of New York? 19 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I don't 20 believe that under the definition of exempt 21 properties, municipally-owned properties, that 22 they would be liable. However, it could apply 23 to properties that are owned by non-profit 24 organizations. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. We 1558 1 have a group home -- again, through you, Mr. 2 President, if the sponsor would continue to 3 yield. We have a group home in the community I 4 live in which is run by DFY. The property is 5 actually owned by the state of New York. It is 6 tax-exempt because it's owned by another 7 municipal government. There are about a dozen 8 young men that live in that facility, are 9 educated in the Brighton School District. How 10 would they pay tuition? 11 SENATOR COOK: Well, as I 12 indicated, Mr. President, those particular 13 students, because they are living in a state 14 owned property, would not be but -- because of 15 other sections of law, the state simply doesn't 16 -- isn't taxable, but I will not beg your 17 question because there are certainly properties 18 that are owned by non-profit organizations where 19 they do have people attending schools, but I 20 would indicate, Mr. President, that, in fact, 21 there would be a tuition due the district and, 22 in fact, this is a problem as well because, 23 again, we are facing increasing opposition in 24 the placement of group homes in school districts 25 because that burden is, in fact, then absorbed 1559 1 by the local school district and the school 2 district has no means of recouping any costs - 3 any of its costs relative to those students. 4 So even though it's not the 5 intent of this bill to address that particular 6 problem, I think that it would -- it would, in 7 fact, apply or could apply to those cases but 8 it, in fact, may also be a remedy for a 9 different problem that we have which is a matter 10 of the communities that are getting saturated by 11 group homes that are imposing costs upon local 12 school districts for whom there's -- for which 13 there is no reimbursement. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through you, 15 Mr. President. In some of those cases, those 16 group homes involve children who are wards of 17 the particular local social service district or, 18 in some cases, actually wards of the 19 not-for-profit entity that places them in those 20 homes. Is it your intention that they would 21 have to pay tuition? 22 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, I 23 would assume that if someone is financially 24 responsible for the bills of a particular child 25 and there is a bill that -- charges levied 1560 1 against that child, that whoever is financially 2 responsible for that child, indeed, becomes 3 financially responsible for the charge, yes. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 5 you, Mr. President, if Senator Cook would 6 continue to yield. Is there anything in this 7 bill that prevents the local school district 8 from charging a tuition that would reflect the 9 actual cost of educating a child who has 10 enormous special needs that requires their 11 placement in a group home? As you know and I'm 12 sure well aware, that cost would be many, many 13 multiples of the tuition charge that a school 14 district would otherwise set. Is there anything 15 that prevents the school district from charging 16 the actual cost of special education for those 17 special disabled populations? 18 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, I 19 believe that the present law which permits 20 school districts to charge aid tuition to 21 students from other school districts -- and that 22 already exists in law -- provides that it be a 23 uniform tuition large, and I would indicate, 24 Senator, as you know, that the school district 25 does receive excess cost aid and various kinds 1561 1 of things from the state which help pay some of 2 those costs. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: May 4 ameliorate some of the costs. Again through 5 you, Mr. President, if the sponsor would 6 continue to yield. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Cook, do you continue to yield? The Senator 9 continues to yield. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: How would 11 this apply in the case of a graduate student 12 dormitory? Again, I represent a community - 13 the University of Rochester has a very 14 substantial graduate student housing complex in 15 one of my school districts. There are many 16 young children who are picked up by the buses 17 every single day. I assume, and I should add, 18 that I'm not 100 percent sure, but I believe 19 those apartment buildings are all tax-exempt as 20 part of the university property. Would they be 21 included as well? 22 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, 23 those properties could be included and, again, 24 if the folks who reside and own homes in those 25 school districts are picking up the cost of 1562 1 educating those students, I see no reason why 2 those students shouldn't be required to pay a 3 tuition cost. It is, after all, a burden upon 4 the other taxpayers in the district who are, in 5 effect, subsidizing them. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 7 you, Mr. President. Senator, are you familiar 8 with the programs that are sponsored by DHCR and 9 other entities that create a reduction in taxes 10 for new homeowners in special property 11 developments where they are exempt from all real 12 property taxes for the first two years as an 13 incentive for home ownership and, therefore, 14 they phase in their school taxes over time so 15 theoretically you could buy a house and not pay 16 any real property taxes in the very first year; 17 would this bill say to those people who are 18 trying to be first-time buyers of homes, that 19 instead of paying your property taxes for the 20 schools, you have to go out and tuition finance 21 the education of each of your children in that 22 first year? 23 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, 24 that is correct. If the people are living in a 25 tax-exempt property and they're sending children 1563 1 to the public school, they are, again, 2 responsible for paying the cost of that 3 education for the children, and I don't see how 4 that violates the principle of helping people 5 buy their property. You know, we give that as a 6 benefit, but I don't see where it's a right that 7 we necessarily owe it to them. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just a final 9 question, Mr. President. What does this do to 10 the concept of the old vicarage, that is, in the 11 Protestant churches, the home that is purchased 12 usually on the church grounds, I assume, Senator 13 -- and I don't know for a fact -- but I assume 14 it's part of the tax-exempt status, that it 15 doesn't pay real property taxes. It's a benefit 16 that's given to the vicar of the church so he 17 can live in a property that is part of his 18 salary. They reduces his salary, he gets 19 housing. Would his children have to pay tuition 20 as well? 21 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, if 22 the school district were to impose that cost 23 upon the -- were to impose a fee, that, indeed, 24 would be the case, but let me also indicate, if 25 I happen to live in a school district -- and I 1564 1 have a number of them in my area -- where the 2 only such residences would be occupied by 3 Protestant ministers, then why should I expect 4 the Catholic residents and the Jewish residents 5 to, in fact, subsidize the pastor of a 6 Protestant church, which is basically what 7 they're doing under the present law. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 9 Mr. Chairman. 10 I appreciate the candor of the 11 Chairman of the Education Committee, but I'm 12 going to oppose this bill. I think that there 13 are many obstacles to be faced in achieving 14 access to public education. 15 I'm concerned because there are a 16 number of things which I have tried to 17 highlight, areas that we may not necessarily 18 think of as tax exempt for a year but 19 nonetheless are. It would seem to me that if we 20 were encouraging home ownership in my community, 21 both in the city of Rochester, the town of 22 Brighton, the town of Greece that I represent, 23 and what we're doing is we're asking DHCR to 24 come in with very innovative programs to allow 25 the working poor to buy homes and as part of 1565 1 those programs, we absolve them from the 2 obligation to pay real property taxes in the 3 first year of ownership and phase in their 4 payment of those taxes so that after a period of 5 five years they are then at full assessment and 6 are paying their full share, that's an incentive 7 for them to own a home. 8 If what we do is say to those 9 parents, we're going to give you an incentive to 10 buy the house but, oh, by the way, you've got to 11 come up with $8,000 or $6,000 or 5- -- and I 12 believe in the communities that I represent, the 13 going tuition rate is in excess of $6,000 - 14 it's far more than what they would pay in real 15 property taxes for schools. So we end up in a 16 situation where we give them an incentive to buy 17 a home and then we immediately force them to go 18 and pay tuition if their local school board 19 decides that's appropriate. 20 I'm concerned about the vicarage, 21 the fact that there's a church somewhere that 22 has bought property for its minister to live in, 23 that he or she has children and that suddenly a 24 school district says we're now going to assess 25 tuition on you even though you live in our 1566 1 school district. 2 Lastly, I'm concerned about the 3 issue of group homes. There's been a group home 4 experiment in my community involving youths from 5 DFY. There are a dozen kids that live in that 6 house. It's right across from the Brighton Town 7 Hall. They've done a very good job in the 8 Brighton School District in trying to bring them 9 into the school district, to mainstream them, to 10 make up for educational deficiencies. The 11 school district has done it, I believe without 12 the payment of tuition. I think what we ought 13 to be doing is encouraging school districts to 14 live up to their responsibilities so that 15 everybody gets a free public education. 16 I'm concerned that the tuition 17 costs will be far more than what they would 18 otherwise pay in real property taxes and for 19 those reasons -- I'm also concerned about the 20 college dormitory. I think that's another huge 21 problem. We should be encouraging people to 22 take advantage of free public education. 23 This bill steps away from that. 24 I understand why the New York State United 25 Teachers oppose it. I would urge my colleagues 1567 1 to do the same. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Waldon, do you wish to speak on the bill? 4 Senator Waldon? Senator Waldon, I know you're 5 having a wonderful conversation. 6 SENATOR WALDON: I had had a 7 discussion with the Majority Leader in regard to 8 being permitted to vote no on Bill Number 36 9 because there's a hearing of Racing and Wagering 10 that I need to attend, Mr. President. I don't 11 know if that's appropriate at this moment. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I would 13 like to finish debate on this bill. 14 SENATOR WALDON: That's fine. I 15 had that discussion and that was what I thought 16 would happen. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 18 move to Senator Stavisky. We'll be back to take 19 your vote in a moment then, Senator Waldon. 20 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. Speaker, I 21 heard the artful presentation of Senator 22 Lachman, Senator Dollinger, and I do not wish to 23 duplicate the points that they have raised. 24 In my district, the district that 25 I represent for many years, was a military 1568 1 establishment known as Fort Totten located in 2 Bayside and at Fort Totten, there were many and 3 are still many military personnel who live 4 there, who have families. 5 I would like to ask the sponsor 6 of the legislation if he would yield. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Cook, do you yield to Senator Stavisky? The 9 Senator yields. 10 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator Cook, 11 are you suggesting that the military personnel 12 who are at a place such as Fort Totten would be 13 required to pay tuition for their children's 14 education? 15 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, two 16 responses to the Senator's question. I would 17 see nothing wrong with those military residents 18 paying some tuition because, after all, it is, I 19 assume, the city of New York then or the city of 20 New York school district that is absorbing the 21 cost of educating those students and most of 22 those folks being military personnel probably 23 aren't New York -- New York residents anyway, 24 but the other side of the issue, Senator, is I 25 would believe that since it's a federally-owned 1569 1 property, that probably we wouldn't be able to 2 enforce this on the federally-owned property, I 3 guess. 4 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. Speaker, 5 on the bill. 6 We have a problem here. The 7 problem is the failure of the United States 8 government to pay for the cost of the education 9 of the children since the United States 10 government is exempt from the imposition of 11 school property taxes. 12 I think that those of you who 13 have a concern for military personnel whose 14 salaries are not usually very great, would be 15 forewarned not to vote for this bill which would 16 cause a soldier, any military personnel living 17 at Fort Totten who has children and they do 18 attend the public school to pay tuition. I 19 think this is a very dangerous precedent that 20 does a great disservice to those people who are 21 serving our nation. The nation should pay the 22 tax. The nation should pay in lieu of taxation 23 but not the individual family, and for that 24 reason and the others that have already been 25 stated, I would hope the members of this body 1570 1 would defeat this bill. 2 Thank you. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 4 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill? 5 (There was no response.) 6 Hearing none, the Secretary will 7 read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect on the first day of 10 September. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 15 the results when tabulated. 16 SENATOR STAVISKY: I'm going to 17 explain my vote, Mr. Speaker. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Stavisky, to explain his vote. 20 SENATOR STAVISKY: I do not wish 21 to limit my presentation to Fort Totten. Think 22 of what it would do to the people at West Point, 23 the families living at West Point whom we honor 24 here regularly with resolutions. Think of 25 that. 1571 1 There are many other 2 installations, federal installations, military 3 installations throughout the state but think of 4 West Point, and do you want to tax the parents, 5 the service people who live at West Point with a 6 school tax? I think that would be, again, a 7 very serious error. 8 I vote in the negative. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Stavisky will be recorded in the negative. 11 Announce the results. 12 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 13 the negative on Calendar Number 150, Senator 14 Abate, Breslin, Connor, Dollinger, Gentile, 15 Kruger, Lachman, Leichter, Markowitz, Mendez, 16 Montgomery, Onorato, Paterson, Rosado, Sampson, 17 Santiago, Seabrook, Smith, Stavisky and Waldon. 18 Ayes 36, nays 20. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 Excuse me, Senator Leichter. 22 Senator Waldon. 23 SENATOR WALDON: With unanimous 24 consent, Mr. President, I would like to be 25 recorded out of order in the way we're 1572 1 considering bills on Calendar Number 36 in the 2 negative. You have to read the last section. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Alesi. 5 SENATOR ALESI: Mr. President, 6 would you please call Calendar 36. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Secretary -- before we do that, Senator 9 Leichter, why do you rise? 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: May I, before 11 we get in the debate on that bill, have 12 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative 13 on Calendar 110. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 15 objection. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing 18 no objection, Senator Leichter will be recorded 19 in the negative on Calendar Number 110 -- 110. 20 SENATOR ALESI: Mr. President, 21 Calendar Number 36. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: That 23 completed the calling of the controversial 24 calendar's first reading. Would you like to 25 take up Calendar Number 36? 1573 1 SENATOR ALESI: Yes, Mr. 2 President. Would you please read the last 3 section so that Senator Waldon may have the 4 opportunity to vote. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Why don't 6 we get the bill before the house, Senator 7 Alesi. We'll do that. 8 The Secretary will read the title 9 to Calendar Number 36. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 36, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 355-A, an 12 act to amend the General City Law and the Penal 13 Law, in relation to creating the crimes of 14 urinating in public. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the 16 last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This 18 act shall take effect on the first day of 19 November. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 SENATOR WALDON: No. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Waldon, you vote in the negative? 1574 1 SENATOR WALDON: In the negative. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The roll 3 call is withdrawn. We'll return to debate on 4 Calendar Number 36. We're on debate on Calendar 5 Number 36. 6 Senator Montgomery. 7 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr. 8 President. I am not going to ask the sponsor to 9 answer any questions because I think the bill is 10 self-explanatory, although we have -- several 11 members have indicated that there are other 12 titles of this legislation, none of which can be 13 stated in the record. 14 However, I would like to just 15 reiterate what my comments were last year in 16 relationship to this bill. It seems to 17 establish a criminal penalty for such behaviors 18 as begging and urinating in public as well as, I 19 believe urinating and begging and defecating, I 20 believe is also included in this bill. 21 As I said last year, there is an 22 attempt with the legislation to address a major 23 social crisis which is essentially homelessness, 24 I believe, by establishing criminality and 25 criminal penalties for these behaviors, such 1575 1 that a person who is sleeping on the streets or 2 a person who has no facility to relieve 3 themselves appropriately, in an appropriate 4 place, or a person who is attempting to receive 5 charity by asking as an individual on the street 6 with a cup in their hand, can now be sanctioned 7 with a Class B misdemeanor charge. 8 All of those behaviors, we know, 9 are abhorrent to all of us in this room and I 10 believe to all of our neighbors and people - 11 civilized people who live in our cities across 12 the state, but I don't believe any of us would 13 like to see the social -- the social problem of 14 homelessness addressed by trying to criminalize 15 them. We know that we've tried these kinds of 16 remedies in other instances and they have not 17 worked, and so to try and address a symptom of a 18 major social problem by establishing criminality 19 just does not work and we may, in fact, end up 20 with an increase in the population that we're 21 trying to address in reducing that population, 22 mainly prison population, by adding to it with 23 these kinds of petty behaviors, behaviors that 24 are really not criminal but are indications of a 25 social breakdown. 1576 1 So, Senator Velella, I certainly 2 must oppose your legislation, not because I'm 3 opposed to what you would like to see happen, 4 and that is you would like to see people not be 5 begging on the street and not be sleeping on the 6 street and not be urinating in your front yard 7 perhaps and mine, but because I think that we 8 need to look for other means of remedying these 9 problems and not to make criminals of them and, 10 in fact, you indicate at one point -- just to 11 read one little part of the bill -- you want to 12 order them to perform community service if they 13 can't pay the penalty of $50 which you would 14 establish in the legislation, and so they're 15 already homeless, penniless and you are also 16 going to require of them community service. I 17 don't know how that's going to work, who is 18 going to have them work and where would you have 19 them perform the community service and who would 20 likely be pleased to have these people 21 performing community service? They need 22 treatment, obviously. They need a home. They 23 need a lot more of what we have not been 24 providing for them but certainly they don't need 25 to be charged with a crime. 1577 1 So I'm voting no on this, Mr. 2 President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 4 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill? 5 (There was no response.) 6 Hearing none, the Secretary will 7 read the last section. Oh, I'm sorry. Senator 8 Seabrook. 9 SENATOR SEABROOK: Will the 10 sponsor yield for a couple of questions? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator? 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Certainly. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Senator yields. 15 SENATOR SEABROOK: Senator, just 16 a quick question, if you could possibly just 17 define two things for me. What is considered 18 this urban commercial zone and how is that 19 defined and who dictates what that zone is? 20 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, the 21 person -- the entity that would dictate the 22 commercial zone under the guidelines set in the 23 bill would be the local government. So, in your 24 case and in mine, for example, we both represent 25 the city of New York and we both represent the 1578 1 city of Mount Vernon. That local government 2 would decide what would be these commercial 3 zones that people would not be allowed to lie 4 down in the streets in front of commercial 5 establishments and we have a safety valve on 6 that that no more than 15 percent of the streets 7 of the City could be set aside as these critical 8 commercial zones. 9 I would hope that you would read 10 the bill rather than listen to what our 11 distinguished colleague from Brooklyn has said 12 because apparently the lapse of time from last 13 year's debate to this year's debate has clouded 14 her mind, and I would suggest she goes back and 15 reads the bill because everything she said is 16 absolutely wrong. 17 We do not mandate B misdemeanors 18 in this bill. We say it's a violation and, if 19 you repeat it again, like we do in all the 20 criminal laws and all the statutes, if you 21 repeat the crime, it elevates it to the next 22 level, a battery of things which she chose not 23 to ask me questions but if you would like to, I 24 would be happy to explain. She's just dead 25 wrong on what she said. 1579 1 It is not about social problems. 2 It's about quality of life issues and about 3 cleaning up our communities and making people 4 behave in a socially responsible matter - 5 manner and not to have people begging and put 6 people in fear of imminent bodily harm that, if 7 they don't respond to a beggar in an aggressive 8 manner, they might be injured in some way. That 9 is what we're talking about. 10 I agree with it. There are a lot 11 of social problems, things that we need to 12 address and we will address, but one of the 13 things that we need to address is the quality of 14 life in our cities. Mayor Dinkins, when we had 15 the Democratic National Convention, made a very 16 aggressive stand on cleaning up the streets down 17 in Manhattan, so that the Democratic delegates 18 across the City, across the country wouldn't see 19 the people lying in the streets, the people 20 interfering with delegates from across the 21 country. We had Manhattan -- it was a jewel. I 22 would like to see that all over, even in our 23 borough, and I think this is a law that we would 24 follow Mayor Dinkins' pattern. We would say 25 we're not going to tolerate that kind of 1580 1 behavior. We didn't want the rest of the 2 country to see it. Dave Dinkins didn't want to 3 have the rest of the country see it. I don't 4 want the rest of the country -- I don't want my 5 constituents to see that kind of behavior, 6 defecating in the streets, urinating in the 7 streets, threatening people that, if they don't 8 give you money, they might have some kind of 9 danger, interfering with our commercial 10 establishments. Those are all things that bring 11 our city down, whether it be Mount Vernon, 12 whether it be New York City or whether it be any 13 city. 14 We ought to follow Dave Dinkins' 15 lead, and I think he has a pretty strong social 16 conscience. I think he did a pretty good thing 17 in setting that example. I want to follow his 18 lead. People who break those laws ought to be 19 punished and, if they can't afford to pay a 20 fine, maybe we ought to let them do community 21 service. Do what? Clean up after themselves. 22 They're making the messes in the streets, 23 community service. Let them clean up after 24 themselves. That's what the bill is about, 25 Senator. 1581 1 SENATOR SEABROOK: Would the 2 Senator yield? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Velella, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Senator yields. 8 SENATOR SEABROOK: Just a - 9 SENATOR VELELLA: I know that 10 wasn't a very direct answer but I had to get it 11 in. 12 SENATOR SEABROOK: Just because 13 -- some clarification. A person who has to 14 relieve themselves is a natural act so it's 15 going to take place either in a proper place or 16 an improper place. What proper places are 17 available in the districts in which we 18 represent, in the Bronx and in Mount Vernon, 19 that's public accessible in the Bronx and Mount 20 Vernon, even if someone has to put a coin in? 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, off 22 the top of my head, we have facilities that the 23 parks department has available. We have 24 restaurants. We have establishments. We have 25 many places where, when you're walking through 1582 1 the streets of Manhattan, when you're walking 2 through the streets of our district, when you're 3 walking up in Mount Vernon in our district, if 4 you have to go to the men's room or have to 5 relieve yourself naturally, I don't believe 6 under any circumstances you would relieve 7 yourself on the streets of Manhattan, the 8 streets of Mount Vernon or the streets of the 9 Bronx. You would find a proper place to do it, 10 and that's all I'm asking the rest of these 11 people to do. Find a proper place, whether it 12 be a public facility like a park where we have 13 park rest rooms. We have them in Mount Vernon. 14 We have them in the Bronx. We have them in 15 various places. There are public facilities. 16 We don't have enough but we all manage to follow 17 the social behavior of not doing it in the 18 street. You wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it, 19 and I don't think anybody else should do it. 20 That's all I'm saying. Whatever the problem is 21 that when you have that emergency, you find a 22 place to go to, I'm asking them to perform to 23 the same level. 24 SENATOR SEABROOK: Well, Senator, 25 I think that in some cases -- I don't know about 1583 1 you, but there have been times on various roads 2 on a number of occasions that I've witnessed 3 other people do it when they didn't have access 4 but nature made its call and it was done, but in 5 terms of the parks that you raised an issue, the 6 majority of the parks -- I would say that the 7 overwhelming majority of the parks in New York 8 City and in the Bronx, in particular, you don't 9 have access to the public bathrooms. 10 SENATOR VELELLA: Some you do, 11 some you don't. 12 SENATOR SEABROOK: In the 13 majority of the cases where those people who 14 actually are residing -- then there are also 15 signs that says "rest rooms for patrons only", 16 that if you aren't eating here, you aren't 17 drinking here, then you can't use the facility. 18 So basically these are people who, if you don't 19 have any money, you can't go in. There's no 20 access. There's not one paid public toilet in 21 your district or my district that the public 22 actually have access to. Maybe a few in 23 Manhattan but not in your district or my 24 district. 25 SENATOR VELELLA: I disagree with 1584 1 that, Senator. 2 SENATOR SEABROOK: Can you name 3 one and show me where? 4 SENATOR VELELLA: Oh, I know 5 several parks that have park attendants there 6 during the day and the facilities are open. 7 SENATOR SEABROOK: No. I said 8 public paying toilets -- public paying toilets. 9 SENATOR VELELLA: Oh, public 10 paid? 11 SENATOR SEABROOK: Right. 12 SENATOR VELELLA: I'm sorry. 13 No. I don't know of any paying toilets. I know 14 of free ones. 15 SENATOR SEABROOK: Well, if you 16 could -- you know of free ones that's available 17 in your district right now? 18 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, sir. I 19 could name you several parks that have open 20 toilet facilities where they have park personnel 21 during the day for people who have to relieve 22 themselves in public. 23 SENATOR SEABROOK: You're 24 probably right. In your district, you're 25 probably right. You're absolutely correct. 1585 1 That's true, but in a place where a lot of the 2 homeless people are, they have actually 3 padlocked the parks. So what I'm saying -- and 4 I agree with some portions of the bill in terms 5 of a person, but if we gave people access and 6 options that they would not have to urinate on 7 the streets, but in New York City, in Manhattan, 8 there are paid public toilets that people can 9 actually pay and have access to go to so that 10 they would not urinate. 11 In the Bronx, there is not one 12 paid public toilet that people actually have 13 access to go in to relieve themselves, so they 14 do it wherever. Subway stations that used to 15 have access to this have actually padlocked all 16 of their rest rooms unless you're in Grand 17 Central Station or Penn Station that you have 18 access to that. 19 So what I'm saying, if we're 20 talking about not allowing people just as, you 21 know, I have seen people decide to allow -- to 22 release themselves on the New York State 23 Thruway, couldn't make a rest stop, decided to 24 relieve themselves, some in perfect business 25 attire. The majority of them aren't homeless 1586 1 because they couldn't get a car. So they are 2 basically using whatever when nature makes that 3 call. 4 What I'm saying is that 5 opportunity, if we were to provide in those 6 areas that you're talking about, those 7 commercial zoned areas, public access to rest 8 rooms, then I would say that this would be a 9 good bill, but if we're telling a person, we're 10 not going to provide you with -- you look very 11 bad. You can't come into the facility because 12 you don't have the monies, now you make a 13 decision where you want to release yourself. 14 Nature calls, it's any place. I'm saying that 15 if we're going to talk about commercial zones 16 and we're going to develop these places, then we 17 should have people having access to public 18 facilities in some capacities so that would 19 allow them to do that. Other than that, it's a 20 very punitive thing for a natural thing that is 21 going to happen if you don't have access to a 22 rest room or facility. 23 SENATOR VELELLA: Is that a 24 question? 25 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yeah. I asked 1587 1 you in reference to the commercial zone by 2 saying that, if these provisions would dictate 3 that if you're going to have a commercial zone 4 area, then they should have -- at least have 5 public bathrooms available in those zones so 6 that a person would have an option and an 7 opportunity. 8 SENATOR VELELLA: In response, 9 Mr. Chairman -- Mr. President, through you. The 10 bill doesn't only require that you not go to the 11 bathroom and defecate or urinate in a commercial 12 zone. It says anywhere in the city. The 13 question of lying in doorways and sleeping on 14 doorways is for commercial zones. So this would 15 be citywide or statewide in any city where you 16 urinate or defecate on the public streets, you 17 would be subject to a fine. 18 Now, I agree with you. It 19 becomes very difficult. I am sure you have in 20 your lifetime been in a situation where you had 21 to relieve yourself and had to seek out a 22 bathroom, and I am sure ultimately you found one 23 some way, some how. I don't believe that we 24 ought to set a social policy in this state that 25 says, if you can't find the right place, just do 1588 1 it anywhere you want. 2 Now, that is the problem that we 3 have. We have people that are using our 4 streets, especially in the city of New York, as 5 public rest rooms. We've got to stop that and 6 we've got to try to tell these people that you 7 don't do that and, if you do do it, you're 8 breaking the law. 9 Now, I can't envision anybody 10 wanting to say that if you really have to go bad 11 enough, go ahead and go on the sidewalk. Go 12 ahead and go any place you want. We have to 13 have some degree of civil concern about the 14 health and safety and propriety in our 15 communities and we cannot tolerate people going 16 to the bathroom on the public streets, whether 17 they're homeless -- the areas you spoke about, 18 they have homeless shelters. They can go to the 19 homeless shelter. Be a little bit responsible 20 about your personal concern for your fellow 21 man. Just because you're poor, it doesn't mean 22 you have to act like a pig and pigs go in the 23 street. You know, unless there's an emergency 24 -- and this is an intentional act. We are 25 trying to tell people we will not tolerate this 1589 1 kind of behavior. It's unhealthy. It's 2 anti-social and it's wrong and whether you're 3 rich, poor or middle class, you shouldn't be 4 going in the street, and that's all I'm saying. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Seabrook. 7 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yes, on the 8 bill. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Seabrook, on the bill. 11 SENATOR SEABROOK: I think that 12 the bill, as it is, doesn't deal with the 13 problems in terms of saying that there are 14 options and opportunities for people who have a 15 desire. I dare say that if we did not have the 16 facilities here, then all of us in our attire 17 would do just what a homeless person would do 18 and some might do worse if the facilities were 19 not made available. 20 SENATOR VELELLA: Would Senator 21 Seabrook yield to a question? 22 SENATOR SEABROOK: Absolutely. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Seabrook, do you yield? The Senator yields. 25 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, are 1590 1 you telling me that, if the bathrooms in this 2 building were closed and you had to go to the 3 men's room, you would go anywhere you can in 4 this building? 5 SENATOR SEABROOK: If nature made 6 that call, it would dictate where I would go. 7 SENATOR VELELLA: You'd go right 8 here in the middle of the floor of the Senate? 9 SENATOR SEABROOK: If nature made 10 that call, it would dictate where you and I 11 would go. 12 SENATOR VELELLA: I will do 13 everything in my power, Senator, to see that we 14 protect you from yourself and keep the bathrooms 15 in this building open at all times because I 16 wouldn't go in here on the floor. Maybe you 17 might. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Did you 19 have another question, Senator? 20 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yeah. The 21 question that I have for Senator Velella is that 22 I would certainly like to see - 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Velella, do you yield? 25 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 1591 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: He 2 yields. 3 SENATOR SEABROOK: Senator 4 Velella, I would just like to ask how you would 5 certainly supersede natural calling, but since 6 you have that ability and capability, I would 7 hope that we would pass a resolution that we 8 would eliminate all of the rest rooms from here 9 to New York City and Senator Velella will show 10 us how not to do what we are supposed to do when 11 nature calls. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Seabrook, would you mind the interpretation? 14 Senator Paterson is waving like he has a natural 15 calling. (Laughter) 16 Senator Paterson, why do you 17 rise? 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, 19 actually, Mr. President, Senator Abate has to 20 leave immediately for a very similar reason. We 21 would like to know if she could relieve herself 22 of voting before she relieves herself. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Alesi. 25 SENATOR ALESI: Mr. President, 1592 1 would you please call the last section in order 2 to accommodate Senator Abate. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Secretary will read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This 6 act shall take effect on 1st first day of 7 November. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll.) 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Abate, how do you vote? 13 SENATOR ABATE: No, and I wish I 14 could speak on the bill but I cannot, but for 15 the reasons I stated last year, I agree with the 16 intent and not the wording of this bill. Too 17 vague and too broad. I look forward to working 18 with the Senator to correct that language. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Abate will be recorded in the negative. 21 SENATOR ABATE: Thank you. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The roll 23 call is withdrawn. We're back on debate. 24 Senator Seabrook, you had the floor. 25 Senator Leichter, why do you 1593 1 rise? 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Before you 3 withdraw the roll call, would you call my name, 4 please? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I already 6 did. 7 Senator Alesi. 8 SENATOR ALESI: No objection, Mr. 9 President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Secretary will read the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This 13 act shall take effect on the 1st day of 14 November. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Leichter, how do you vote? 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you, Mr. 21 President. 22 Edifying as this debate is and 23 the high level that it's reached, I'm sorry to 24 have to leave. For reasons unrelated to the - 25 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 1594 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Skelos. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: We're trying to 4 accommodate people that have urgent business to 5 go back to their district. If they want to 6 vote, they can vote, but a lot of people are 7 staying here listening to the debate. We know 8 it's a getaway day. We understand that, but I 9 would ask if we're going to make accommodations 10 on voting, vote and please conduct your 11 business. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Leichter, how do you vote? 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you. 15 It's a fair statement. I vote in the negative. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Leichter will be recorded in the negative. 18 Senator Paterson. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 20 I would just like to agree with the Deputy 21 Majority Leader. Whatever the urgencies are 22 that people have to leave this chamber and as 23 urgently as they make it sound when they come 24 over here and ask me, it would seem to me that a 25 simple no vote would suffice. 1595 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 2 you. Points are both well taken. 3 The roll call is withdrawn. 4 We're back on debate. 5 Senator Seabrook. 6 SENATOR SEABROOK: Mr. President, 7 I won't belabor this too long because I have to 8 make a stop myself. So I'm going to be very, 9 very quick and make sure that it would not be in 10 this room, Senator Velella, but I would hope 11 that people would -- when we decide to do these 12 things and that Senator Velella would look about 13 putting a lot more public accessibility to 14 facilities so that people would do that, and I 15 agree with him in terms of the intent of what 16 he's trying to do, but I'm saying that there 17 should be some options and opportunities for 18 people, and I'm certain that they will 19 understand the necessity of doing it in the 20 proper place. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 22 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill? 23 (There was no response.) 24 Hearing none, the Secretary - 25 SENATOR VELELLA: Just to close 1596 1 debate -- I would like to speak briefly on the 2 bill in closing the debate. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Velella. 5 SENATOR VELELLA: I would just 6 like to point out to my colleagues, Senator 7 Seabrook said he would like to cut the debate a 8 little short because he has to make a stop on 9 the way. Senator Abate had a personal matter 10 that had to be attended to. All this shows is 11 that where there is a will, there is a way, and 12 I say that if we can do it, everybody else can 13 do it and this bill is a good, solid bill. 14 Thank you. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Secretary will read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This 18 act shall take effect on the 1st day of 19 November. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 24 the results when tabulated. 25 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 1597 1 the negative on Calendar Number 36, Senators 2 Abate, Breslin, Connor, Gonzalez, Leichter, 3 Montgomery, Paterson, Sampson, Santiago, 4 Seabrook, Smith, Stavisky and Waldon. Also 5 Senator Mendez. Ayes 44, nays 14. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 7 is passed. 8 Senator Oppenheimer. 9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: With 10 unanimous consent, I would like to be recorded 11 in the negative on Calendar 150. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 13 objection, hearing no objection, Senator 14 Oppenheimer will be recorded in the negative on 15 Calendar Number 150. 16 Senator Gonzalez. 17 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Mr. President, 18 may I be recorded in the negative on Calendar 19 Number 150. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 21 objection. 22 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Thank you. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing 24 no objection, Senator Gonzalez will be recorded 25 in the negative on Calendar Number 150. 1598 1 Senator Marcellino. 2 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 3 President, I recently read in the paper that one 4 of our colleagues, who I will not name, has 5 decided not to seek another office and has 6 decided to remain part of this body and I, for 7 one, am glad that that individual did that 8 because I don't think this body would be the 9 same without him and I'm pleased that he or she, 10 because I won't identify him, has decided to 11 remain. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Alesi. 14 SENATOR ALESI: Mr. President, 15 may we return to the order of motions and 16 resolutions, please. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 18 return to the standing order of motions and 19 resolutions. 20 SENATOR ALESI: Mr. President, 21 there is a privileged resolution at the desk by 22 Senators Bruno and Rath. May we please read the 23 title and move its immediate adoption. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 25 Secretary will read the title. 1599 1 THE SECRETARY: By Senators Bruno 2 and Rath, Legislative Resolution commending the 3 women of New York State government in 4 designating them for honor in conjunction with 5 the celebration of Women's History Month, March 6 1997. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Rath. 9 SENATOR RATH: Mr. President, I 10 would like to invite all my colleagues to join 11 me on this resolution, as I'm sure all of us are 12 willing and anxious, enthusiastic about 13 commending the women of New York State 14 government in Women's History Month. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are there 16 any members who would like to co-sponsor the 17 resolution? 18 Senator Marchi, everybody? 19 Senator Alesi, if it's okay with 20 you, standard procedure, we'll put everybody on 21 the resolution with Senator Rath excepting those 22 people who indicate to the desk that they don't 23 wish to co-sponsor, if they would do so. 24 Senator Paterson, why do you 25 rise? 1600 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 2 just a note of inquiry. Is Senator Marcellino 3 on that resolution? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: He is 5 now. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, good. I 7 would be pleased to be on it because there's no 8 one harder working in government than Senator 9 Marcellino. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Alesi. 12 SENATOR ALESI: Mr. President, is 13 there any housekeeping at the desk? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All has 15 been taken care of, Senator Alesi. 16 SENATOR ALESI: Thank you. 17 There being no further business, 18 I move we adjourn until Monday, March 17th, at 19 3:00 p.m., intervening days being legislative 20 days. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 22 objection, hearing no objection, the Senate 23 stands adjourned until Monday, March 17th, at 24 3:00 p.m. in the afternoon, all intervening days 25 to be legislative days. 1601 1 (Whereupon, at 12:19 p.m., the 2 Senate adjourned.) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10