Tuesday, May 27, 1997

4006 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 May 27, 1997 11 3:11 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President 19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 20 21 22 23 24 25 4007 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will 3 come to order. 4 Would everyone please rise and 5 join with me in the Pledge of Allegiance. 6 (The assemblage repeated the 7 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 8 The invocation today will be 9 given by Reverend Peter G. Young from the 10 Blessed Sacrament Church in Bolton Landing. 11 Reverend Young. 12 REVEREND PETER G. YOUNG: Let us 13 pray. We pray then today for all New York State 14 people, now that we have enjoyed the opportunity 15 of having the Memorial Day behind us. We think 16 of the wealth and the power that might then 17 become a force for peace rather than conflict, a 18 source of hope rather than discontent, and be an 19 agent of friendship rather than enmity. May the 20 actions of the Senate then be that example. Now 21 and forever. Amen. 22 THE PRESIDENT: Amen. 23 The reading of the Journal, 24 please. 25 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 4008 1 Saturday, May 24th. The Senate met pursuant to 2 adjournment, Senator Farley in the Chair upon 3 designation of the Temporary President. The 4 Journal of Friday, May 23rd, was read and 5 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 6 THE PRESIDENT: Without 7 objection, the Journal stands approved as read. 8 Presentation of petitions. 9 Messages from the Assembly. 10 Messages from the Governor. 11 Reports of standing committees. 12 Reports of select committees. 13 Communications and reports from 14 state officers. 15 Motions and resolutions. 16 Senator Tully. 17 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Madam 18 President. On behalf of Senator Trunzo, I wish 19 to call up Calendar Number 792, Assembly Print 20 Number 7594. 21 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 22 will read. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 792, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, 25 Assembly Print Number 7594, an act to provide 4009 1 for the adjustment of stipends of certain 2 incumbents. 3 SENATOR TULLY: Madam President, 4 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this 5 Assembly bill was substituted for Senator 6 Trunzo's bill, Senate Print Number 5237 on May 7 7th, 1997. 8 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 9 will call the roll on reconsideration. 10 (The Secretary called the roll on 11 reconsideration. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42. 13 SENATOR TULLY: Madam President, 14 I now move that the Assembly Bill Number 7594 be 15 committed to the Committee on Rules and Senator 16 Trunzo's bill be restored to the order of the 17 Third Reading Calendar. 18 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate bill 19 is restored to the Third Reading Calendar. 20 SENATOR TULLY: Madam President, 21 I now offer the following amendments. 22 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments 23 received. 24 SENATOR TULLY: And adopted. No? 25 No. O.K. 4010 1 Madam President, on behalf of 2 Senator Levy, please place a sponsor's star on 3 Calendar Number 993. 4 THE PRESIDENT: So ordered. 5 SENATOR TULLY: Madam President, 6 on behalf of Senator Volker, please place a 7 sponsor's star on Calendar Number 656. 8 THE PRESIDENT: So ordered. 9 SENATOR TULLY: Madam President, 10 amendments are offered to the following Third 11 Reading Calendar bills: 12 Senator Tully, page 7, Calendar 13 Number 184, Senate Print 2567-B; 14 Senator Johnson, page 11, 15 Calendar Number 342, Senate Print 2684-A; 16 Senator Nozzolio, page 13, 17 Calendar Number 377, Senate Print Number 177-B; 18 Senator Hannon, page 17, Calendar 19 Number 493, Senate Print Number 1736; 20 Senator Hannon, on page 30, 21 Calendar Number 770, Senate Print Number 4361; 22 Senator Hannon, page 30, Calendar 23 Number 774, Senate Print Number 4959; 24 Senator Stafford, page 33, 25 Calendar Number 801, Senate Print Number 5178; 4011 1 Senator Alesi, page 33, Calendar 2 Number 813, Senate Print Number 5122; and 3 Senator Holland, page 35, 4 Calendar Number 841, Senate Print Number 4483. 5 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments 6 received. 7 SENATOR TULLY: Madam President, 8 I now move that these bills retain their place 9 on the order of third reading. 10 THE PRESIDENT: So ordered. 11 Secretary will read. 12 THE SECRETARY: On page 28, 13 Senator Saland moves to discharge from the 14 Committee on Rules Assembly Bill Number 7029 and 15 substitute it for the identical Third Reading 16 Calendar 748. 17 THE PRESIDENT: Substitution 18 ordered. 19 Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 21 there will be an immediate meeting of the Labor 22 Committee in the Majority Conference Room. 23 THE PRESIDENT: There will be an 24 immediate meeting of the Labor Committee in the 25 Majority Conference Room. 4012 1 Senator Tully. Oh. 2 Senator Skelos. Oh, I'm sorry, 3 Senator Paterson. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 5 Madam President, on behalf of Senator Connor and 6 Senator Smith, both of whom have two privileged 7 resolutions at the desk, I would like to read 8 the titles and move those resolutions at this 9 time. 10 THE PRESIDENT: Secretary will 11 read. The Secretary will read the resolution by 12 Senator Connor. 13 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 14 Connor, Legislative Resolution 1461, 15 commemorating the 30th Anniversary of the South 16 Street Seaport Museum. 17 THE PRESIDENT: On the 18 resolution, all those in favor please signify by 19 saying aye. 20 (Response of "Aye.") 21 Those opposed, nay. 22 (There was no response. ) 23 The resolution is adopted. 24 The Secretary will read. 25 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 4013 1 Resolution, by Senator Smith, commending Yvonne 2 H. Davis upon the occasion of her designation as 3 recipient of the Civil Servant Award by the 4 African-American Customs Organization, Inc., on 5 June 14, 1997. 6 THE PRESIDENT: On the 7 resolution, all those in favor please signify by 8 saying aye. 9 (Response of "Aye.") 10 Those opposed nay. 11 (There was no response. ) 12 The resolution is adopted. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President. 14 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Skelos. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: I believe 16 there's a resolution at the desk sponsored by 17 Senator Holland. I ask that it be read in its 18 entirety and move for its immediate adoption. 19 THE PRESIDENT: Secretary will 20 read. Senator Skelos, we have one more 21 resolution by Senator Smith. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: O.K. 23 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Smith, 24 Legislative Resolution commending Barbara Faison 25 upon the occasion of her designation as 4014 1 recipient of the Community Service Award by the 2 African-American Customs Organization Inc., on 3 June 14, 1997. 4 THE PRESIDENT: On the 5 resolution, all those in favor please signify by 6 saying aye. 7 (Response of "Aye.") 8 Those opposed nay. 9 (There was no response. ) 10 The resolution is adopted. 11 Secretary will read. 12 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 13 Resolution, by Senator Holland: Legislative 14 Resolution 1459 memorializing Governor George E. 15 Pataki to proclaim May 26th through 31st, 1997 16 as Bone Marrow Donor Awareness Week. 17 WHEREAS, this legislative body is 18 justly proud to memorialize Governor George E. 19 Pataki to proclaim May 26 through 31, 1997 as 20 Bone Marrow Donor Awareness Week, and 21 WHEREAS, bone marrow transplants 22 now give people dying of blood-related diseases 23 such as leukemia and aplastic anemia a chance to 24 be cured if a donor can be found whose bone 25 marrow matches their own; and 4015 1 WHEREAS, an individual has only a 2 30 percent chance of finding a donor among his 3 or her own family members; once family members 4 have been tested and a match is not found, an 5 individual is faced with only about a one in 6 20,000 unrelated people who will match closely 7 enough to allow the opportunity for a bone 8 marrow donation; 9 The National Donor Registry was 10 begun in 1987 to assist finding suitable donors 11 from a pool of "typed" readily available 12 volunteers. To date over two and a half million 13 volunteers are in the registry but more are 14 needed; 15 Many people in the United States 16 have died because their desperate searches have 17 not produced a matching donor in time; it is 18 vital, therefore, that every effort be made to 19 assure that the donor pool is as large and 20 diverse as possible; 21 Marrow transplants require 22 matching tissue types which are characterized by 23 complex genetic traits often unique to a 24 particular race, and currently about 80 percent 25 of the volunteer donors are Caucasian; 4016 1 It is of critical importance that 2 African-Americans, Hispanics, Asians and Native 3 Americans, who are presently underrepresented on 4 the registry, become volunteers so that the same 5 hope can be offered to all Americans in need; 6 and 7 WHEREAS, in observance of Bone 8 Marrow Donor Awareness Week, several New York 9 race car drivers will participate in a One Lap 10 of America Road Race which will be held from May 11 31st through June 7th, 1997 and cover 5,725 12 miles; 13 A 1997 reincarnation of the famed 14 "Cannonball Run" cross-country car race is a 15 most unlikely setting for a Bone Marrow Donor 16 Registration Drive, yet road racers Bob 17 Kleinman, Gary Gerson and Cheryl Carl of the 18 Dancing Bears Racing Team from Somers, New York, 19 are embarking on a 5,725-mile high speed bone 20 marrow registration drive while competing in the 21 One Lap of America; starting at legendary 22 Watkins Glen International Racetrack, 95 race 23 teams will compete in the grueling seven-day One 24 Lap with 12 competitive segments at racetracks 25 throughout the United States; 4017 1 Driving a state of the art Derek 2 Daly Volkswagen race car, the racers have 3 rallied to the cause of Project Share Life, a 4 joint effort of the Leukemia Society of America 5 and the National Marrow Donor Program; with 6 1-800-MARROW-2 emblazoned across the hood and 7 rear bumper of their high speed billboard and 8 the Leukemia Society of America logo along the 9 sides, the team is running a high tech mobile 10 media campaign to rally potential bone marrow 11 donors to register with the National Marrow 12 Donor Program registry; 13 This legislative body is proud to 14 acknowledge the efforts of Bob Kleinman and the 15 Dancing Bears Racing Team for their unique 16 effort to raise awareness and solicit donors in 17 participating in the race; and 18 WHEREAS, in memory of the late 19 Senator Eugene Levy it is the intent of this 20 legislative body to designate May 26th through 21 31, 1997 as Bone Marrow Donor Awareness Week in 22 New York State, recognizing and honoring all of 23 those who have selflessly donated marrow or have 24 been tested as a potential donor, and to enhance 25 public awareness of the desperate need for bone 4018 1 marrow donors, particularly minority donors; 2 During Bone Marrow Donor 3 Awareness Week, the Bone Marrow Resource 4 Foundation will distribute educational material 5 and conduct a donor drive to test individuals as 6 potential donors on Tuesday, May 27th and 7 Wednesday, May 28th on the third floor terrace 8 of the Legislative Office Building; donors will 9 be registered with the National Marrow Donor 10 Program through a local donor center at the 11 American Red Cross in Syracuse; 12 Funds to test individuals as 13 potential donors during Bone Marrow Donor 14 Awareness Week are to be raised through a 15 Legislative Bowl-a-Thon on May 28th, 1997; 16 To date at least 1200 individuals 17 have been tested and added to the registry as a 18 result of funds raised through the Legislative 19 Bowl-a-Thon and eight of these individuals have 20 actually been matched with patients in need and 21 donated their marrow to save a life; and 22 WHEREAS, everyone has the ability 23 to give the gift of life by donating bone marrow 24 to someone who faces imminent death from a 25 blood-related disease; 4019 1 Through its commitment to the 2 preservation and enhancement of human life, Bone 3 Marrow Donor Awareness Week so clearly advances 4 that spirit of united purpose and shared concern 5 which is the unalterable manifestation of our 6 American experience. 7 NOW, THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED 8 that this legislative body pause in its 9 deliberations to memorialize Governor George E. 10 Pataki to proclaim May 26 through 31, 1997 as 11 Bone Marrow Donor Awareness Week in New York 12 State; and 13 BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that 14 copies of this resolution, suitably engrossed, 15 be transmitted to the Bone Marrow Resource 16 Foundation, the National Marrow Donor Program, 17 the New York State American Red Cross of 18 Syracuse, and the Dancing Bears Racing Team in 19 recognition of their efforts in educating the 20 public and assisting those in need of a bone 21 marrow donation. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 23 Chair recognizes Senator Holland. 24 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President, 25 I would like to thank everybody who has been 4020 1 associated with bone marrow transplant and 2 anybody who has had their blood tested and gone 3 into the data bank. You have saved lives 4 because of this data bank, and we are doing 5 blood testing today and tomorrow on the third 6 floor terrace. Anybody under 60 years of age 7 who hasn't put their blood type in, we would 8 appreciate you going down and being tested. You 9 may save a life. 10 Also the Bowl-a-Thon that we have 11 each year to raise money in order to pay for 12 this, this year had to move because the Playdium 13 was struck by lightning. We will return to that 14 next year, but this year the Bowl-a-Thon will be 15 at the Albany Bowling Center on Watervliet 16 Avenue tomorrow night starting at 6:00 p.m., and 17 I'd like to thank those Senators who were 18 involved and have teams bowling and contributed 19 money: Senators DeFrancisco, Johnson, Kuhl, 20 Maltese, Maziarz, Rath, Skelos, Spano, and yours 21 truly. 22 Thank you very much. 23 Senator, if anyone else would 24 like to go on the resolution, the resolution is 25 open. 4021 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Any 2 other Senator like to be heard on the 3 resolution? 4 We will open the resolution for 5 the entire house, unless anyone does not wish 6 to be on the resolution. All those in favor of 7 the resolution, signify by saying aye. 8 (Response of "Aye.") 9 Opposed nay. 10 (There was no response. ) 11 The resolution is adopted. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 13 believe there is another resolution at the desk 14 sponsored by Senator Holland. May we please have 15 the title read and move for its immediate 16 adoption. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: 18 Secretary will read. 19 THE SECRETARY: Resolution Number 20 1460, by Senator Holland, paying tribute to Neil 21 and Ruth Luther for their generosity in donating 22 their Playdium Bowling Center for the past 23 annual Legislative Bone Marrow Bowl-a-Thons. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Question 25 is on the resolution. All in favor signify by 4022 1 saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye.") 3 Opposed nay. 4 (There was no response. ) 5 The resolution is adopted. 6 Senator Skelos. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 8 believe there's a privileged resolution at the 9 desk, by Senator Connor. I ask that the title 10 be read and move for its immediate adoption. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: 12 Secretary will read. 13 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 14 Connor, Legislative Resolution honoring Paul 15 O'Dwyer, President and Founder of the Mayo 16 Foundation, upon the occasion of his designation 17 for special commendation at a celebration to be 18 held May 30th, 1997. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 20 question of is on the resolution. All in favor 21 signify by saying aye. 22 (Response of "Aye.") 23 Opposed nay. 24 (There was no response. ) 25 The resolution is adopted. 4023 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 3 at this time, if we could have the reading of 4 the non-controversial calendar. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 6 Secretary will read. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 75, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print Number 179 9 A, an act to authorize the payment of 10 transportation aid to the Baldwin Union Free 11 School District. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside, 13 please. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 15 bill aside. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 87, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 133, an act 18 to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 19 expanding other expenses. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 21 last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 23 act shall take effect on the 180th day. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the 25 roll. 4024 1 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 4 is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 126, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 1373, an act 7 to amend the Executive Law, in relation to the 8 task force on school-community collaboration. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 10 last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 15 bill aside. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 312, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 2625-A, an 18 act to amend Chapter 693 of the Laws of 1996, 19 amending the Social Services Law. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 21 last section. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 24 bill aside. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4025 1 349, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 3358-A, an 2 act to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law 3 and others, in relation to the enforcement of 4 the prohibition on the sale of alcohol. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 7 bill aside. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 456, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 3679-A, 10 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation 11 Law, in relation to Scup and black sea bass. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay that bill 13 aside. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 15 bill aside. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 487, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 3029, an 18 act to create the Piermont Library District in a 19 portion of the town of Orangetown. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 22 bill aside. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 576, by member of the Assembly Morelle, Assembly 25 Print 937, an act to amend the Education Law, in 4026 1 relation to the practice of speech-language 2 pathology. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 4 last section. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay the bill 6 aside. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 8 bill aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 620, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 3765, an 11 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 12 standardizing and improving state agency permit 13 applications. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 15 last section. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 18 Paterson, did you say something? Read the last 19 section. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay the bill 21 aside, please. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 23 bill aside. 24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 25 686, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 4176, an act 4027 1 to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in 2 relation to payment. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 4 last section. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside, 6 please. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 8 bill aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 741, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 1342-A. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 13 bill aside. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 753, by Senator Meier, Senate Print 4110-A, 16 concurrent resolution of the Senate and 17 Assembly. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside, 19 please. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 21 bill aside. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 778, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, 24 Assembly Print 7700, an act to amend the Public 25 Health Law. 4028 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 3 bill aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 796, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 3939, an 6 act to establish a public library district. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 8 last section. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside, 10 please. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 12 bill aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 816, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 3062, an 15 act to amend Chapter 246 of the Laws of 1916. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay it 18 aside. 19 Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay aside for 21 the day. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 23 is laid aside for the day. 24 THE SECRETARY: 848, by Senator 25 Rath, Senate Print 4852. 4029 1 SENATOR VOLKER: Lay aside. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Bill is 4 laid aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 862, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 4478, an 7 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in 8 relation to permitting certain electronically 9 transmitted statements. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 11 last section. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 14 bill aside. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 869, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 5141, an act 17 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 18 increasing the criminal penalties. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay that bill 20 aside, please. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 22 bill aside. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 870, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5180, an 25 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 4030 1 establishing. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside, 3 please. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay it 5 aside. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 886, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 3651, an 8 act to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law, 9 in relation to permitting. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 12 bill aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 901, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 4568, an act 15 to amend the Arts and Cultural Affairs Law. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 17 last section. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 20 bill aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 910, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 4015-A, an 23 act to amend the Navigation Law, in relation to 24 the establishment. 25 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside, 4031 1 please. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 3 bill aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 913, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 1965, an 6 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 7 appeals. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 10 bill aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 915, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 2779, an 13 act to amend the Correction Law, in relation to 14 charging taxes on sales. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 16 last - 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay the bill 18 aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 20 is laid aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 920, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 3429, an 23 act to amend the Correction Law, in relation to 24 requiring. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 4032 1 last - 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 4 bill aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 993, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 4308, an act 7 to amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation 8 to authorizing the Metropolitan Transportation 9 Authority. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 12 bill aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 1041, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 3356, an 15 act to amend the Not-For-Profit Corporation Law, 16 in relation to the resale. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Bill is 18 laid aside at the sponsor's request. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay that aside. 21 Lay it aside for the day, and also lay aside for 22 the day Senate 1042. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senate 24 1042 will also be laid aside at the sponsor's 25 request for the day. 4033 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1055, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 4431, an 3 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to 4 the sharing of information. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside, 6 please. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 8 bill aside. 9 Senator Skelos, that completes 10 the reading of the non-controversial calendar. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 12 now that Senator Paterson is exhausted, could we 13 take up the controversial calendar. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 15 Secretary will read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 75, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 179-A, an 18 act to authorize the payment of transportation 19 aid to the Baldwin Union Free School District. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for 22 the moment. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay 24 aside for the moment. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4034 1 126, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 1373, an act 2 to amend the Executive Law, in relation to the 3 task force on school-community collaboration. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: 6 Explanation is requested, Senator Cook. 7 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, 8 last summer New York State was one of, I think, 9 four states that successfully bid for a Danforth 10 Foundation grant to go to St. Lawrence and talk 11 about how to deal with problems of school 12 community collaboration in a manner of trying to 13 make the most efficient use of community human 14 services programs to address some of the 15 problems of youth that are showing up in our 16 schools and to try to develop a preventive 17 strategy so that, hopefully, we can help young 18 people before they get into serious problems 19 later on in life, by having concentrated human 20 services counsel being available within the 21 schools, both for the students and for the 22 families. 23 The bill which is before us is 24 the bill that was developed by that task force. 25 The task force consisted of members of the 4035 1 Assembly, Assemblywoman Clark was an active 2 participant in this -- in that discussion. It 3 is a joint Assembly-Senate bill. It's also - 4 the task force had members from the Governor's 5 office and also from the state Education 6 Department who are involved. 7 This bill tries to -- actually 8 uses the existing task force rather than 9 creating a new one, but it does enlarge their 10 mission. Then the effort is to try to get state 11 agencies to get their policies lined up so that 12 they will enhance the ability of localities 13 which, in many cases, are already doing many of 14 these collaborative efforts by changing the 15 regulations in places where it is necessary so 16 that the local agencies who are trying to work 17 together will have an easier way of doing it. 18 Much of the time we find that the 19 accountability requirements of the various state 20 agencies actually get in the way of local people 21 who are trying their best to do a good job with 22 limited resources, and we have had in New York 23 State a history over the past three or four 24 years of many local agencies, many local 25 counties, most of these regions which have 4036 1 cooperated and done some very, very good things 2 in this area of having social workers available 3 in schools, of having schools who are talking 4 with human services agencies who, in turn, are 5 working with the families, and we've -- we've 6 really made some good progress. 7 But again we still have that 8 problem that the agencies are prohibited in some 9 instances from talking among themselves about 10 certain cases that need to get discussed where 11 there need to be common understandings, and the 12 requirement that narrowly focused agency 13 policies and programs have to be complied with 14 in order for this collaborative effort to take 15 place. 16 Hopefully, this task force will 17 be able to overcome some of those problems and 18 we hope that New York State will move forward. 19 I'm very proud of what we've done so far, but 20 this bill will make it possible for us to do 21 more and, incidentally, Mr. President, up to 22 this point -- and I say this with some regret - 23 most of the progress we've made in this area has 24 been in the smaller school districts and many of 25 the very serious problems in the urban areas 4037 1 have not been addressed as well as they should 2 have because of some of the very barriers which 3 exist and one of the things that we hope this 4 bill will do will be to get the entire state 5 involved in this type of program. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: That's fine. 7 Thank you, Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 9 last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 312, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 2625-A, an 20 act to amend Chapter 693 of the Laws of 1996, 21 amending the Social Services Law. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation, 23 please. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 25 Tully, an explanation has been asked for. 4038 1 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you, Mr. 2 President. 3 In 1996, this house passed the 4 current Medical Assistance Presumptive Eligi 5 bility program to permit ALC patients who are 6 transferred to residential health care facili 7 ties or hospices to be deemed presumptively 8 eligible for Medicaid for 60 days. The Governor, 9 in his approval message, raised some concerns 10 about the fiscal impact of this legislation. In 11 order to give patients, providers and the state 12 an opportunity to see what happens, we agreed to 13 a sunset which is the gravamen of the bill 14 before us for two years. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 16 Paterson. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 18 much, Mr. President. If Senator Tully would 19 yield for a question. 20 SENATOR TULLY: I will, Mr. 21 President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 23 Tully, will you yield? 24 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Tully, 25 I understand there was a concern, even one that 4039 1 the Governor might have shared, but I don't want 2 to put words in the Governor's mouth, but at 3 least there was a concern about those patients 4 that would not necessarily be Medicare-eligible 5 who would then be discharged from nursing homes 6 and then the state would be left with the bill. 7 Is that accurate and, if so, how does the 8 legislation you are proposing cure this? 9 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, 10 the answer to your first question is yes, that 11 is accurate and this would give the Governor an 12 opportunity, it will give the state an 13 opportunity over a two-year program to assess 14 what happens as these patients are transferred 15 from the hospital setting to a hospice or to a 16 nursing home and these are really dealing with 17 the ALC situations which sometimes change from 18 day to day. You may have a patient who is ALC 19 for one hour and two minutes later he becomes 20 acute, so it becomes a difficult problem to 21 assess, and that's the reason for this legisla 22 tion, to give them an opportunity to study it. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 24 President. 25 If Senator Tully would continue 4040 1 to yield. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 3 Tully, do you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, I will. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 6 Tully yields. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I'm 8 actually quite impressed with this piece of 9 legislation, and no one knows exactly what it 10 does and do you think two years will be 11 sufficient enough to get an idea of what the 12 potential loss to the state might be and, of 13 course, if there is none that I guess we would 14 come back and try to do something about it, but 15 do you think two years is enough of a period of 16 time to make that assessment? 17 SENATOR TULLY: I think that's an 18 excellent question, Mr. President. I wish that 19 it could be for a longer period of time, but the 20 need is now and this is the recommendation of 21 the Governor, when he did approve it initially 22 and that's the reason we're going with the 23 two-year period. 24 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 25 President. On the bill. 4041 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 2 Paterson, on the bill. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: This is a need 4 that probably is overdue, but there was a 5 reasonable concern that was raised in this 6 particular area. I agree with Senator Tully 7 perhaps a little bit longer period of time would 8 be better, allowing us to assess what the 9 potential loss might be, but the again is 10 undeniable, and I want to congratulate Senator 11 Tully for introducing the legislation. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 13 last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 21 is passed. 22 Secretary will read Calendar 23 Number 75. 24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 25 75, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 179-A, an 4042 1 act to authorize the payment of transportation 2 aid to the Baldwin Union Free School District. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: There is 4 a local fiscal impact note at the desk. Read the 5 last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation, 9 please. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 11 this legislation, the original print passed 12 earlier this year unanimously. The bill also 13 passed last year unanimously. All the amendment 14 does to this bill is change a date in the 15 legislation which was incorrectly printed the 16 first time and would authorize the state 17 Education Department to apportion '93-94 18 transportation aid to the Baldwin Union Free 19 School District for certain contracts which were 20 not filed in a timely fashion, although the 21 school district does indicate that the contracts 22 were mailed in a timely fashion and the state 23 Education Department is saying they did not 24 receive the contracts. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 4043 1 Paterson. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: If Senator 3 Tully would yield for a question. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: I'm Senator 5 Skelos. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Sorry. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Does the 8 Senator yield? 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Do you want 10 Senator Tully to yield? 11 SENATOR PATERSON: No, no. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 13 Skelos, do you yield for a question? 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, Senator 16 Skelos. I didn't know Senator Skelos' name, so 17 I believed that I was Senator Skelos. 18 Senator, other than the fact that 19 there is really kind of a ministerial problem 20 between the Department of Education and the 21 school board, I mean, and between the school 22 district, is it clear what would be put in place 23 so that we wouldn't have this problem with the 24 date occurring again? What I'm really saying is 25 the fact that the information came late was 4044 1 ministerial, you said, didn't really change the 2 outcome of anything, did it? 3 SENATOR SKELOS: No. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: And so what 5 I'm just asking is there any discussion, other 6 than the two sides blaming each other, of what 7 might facilitate a solution where the situation 8 might arise? 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Well, the school 10 district now is sending it return receipt 11 requested. There are a number of these bills, 12 Senator Paterson, that you will see move through 13 the process this year. I remember a couple of 14 years ago when I was on the Education Committee, 15 Senator Oppenheimer had a couple of bills, I 16 believe, for the Mount Vernon School District, 17 so when these errors occur, we're not looking to 18 penalize the school district for the money that 19 they deserve. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 21 much, Mr. President and Senator Ski-los? . 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Skelos. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Skelos. Thank 24 you. Senator Skelos. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 4045 1 Oppenheimer. 2 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I would 3 just like the record to show that I appreciate 4 the reference made but I do not represent Mount 5 Vernon. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 7 Dollinger. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Does the 9 sponsor yield to a question? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Does the 11 sponsor yield for a question? The sponsor 12 yields. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: One of the 14 issues that we dealt with when I first came here 15 dealt with a number of pension bills which gave 16 people the opportunity to buy back into the 17 pension system and then I can't recall, maybe 18 Senator Trunzo was the sponsor, we did a bill 19 that said that the pension system can accept and 20 resolve on its own the decisions of who is able 21 to show through good cause that they're entitled 22 to back pension benefits. We do a number of 23 these bills each year. I know that both the 24 Majority and Minority members carry these 25 bills. Ours tend to get done later rather than 4046 1 sooner, but nonetheless they get done. 2 My question is, has any 3 consideration been given to setting up a system 4 under which these types of bills don't have to 5 come back to us that we could give the 6 Commissioner of Education the ability for good 7 cause shown to relieve school districts from 8 default, very similar -- I know this school 9 district says we sent it but you didn't get it. 10 Is there any way we can put this in an 11 administrative process or some other process so 12 we don't have to do these bills in the future? 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Great 14 suggestion. I'll suggest it to Senator Bruno; 15 he can then suggest it to the Governor. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 17 you, Mr. President, it just seems to me to make 18 good sense. We do a lot of these bills. We take 19 up our time doing them. It seems to me that 20 Baldwin -- Baldwin Union Free School District 21 has shown this was an inadvertent omission on 22 its part in the delivery of the document and for 23 the Department of Education to put in an 24 absolute cutoff just means that we're spending 25 extra time doing this stuff when they should be 4047 1 able to resolve this administratively. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Again, it's a 3 suggestion I will convey to Senator Bruno. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you. 5 No further questions. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 7 last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 15 is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 349, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 3358-A. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 19 THE SECRETARY: An act to amend 20 the - 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside 22 temporarily. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay 24 aside temporarily. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4048 1 456, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 3679-A, 2 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation 3 Law, in relation to scup and black sea bass. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay aside 5 temporarily. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the 7 bill aside temporarily. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 487, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 3029, an 10 act to create the Piermont Library District. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 12 Holland, an explanation has been requested by 13 Senator Paterson. 14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, Mr. 15 President. This bill creates the Piermont 16 Library District and provides for its management 17 and operation, and what it does basically is it 18 allows the people of the village of Piermont to 19 separate the budget of the library from the 20 village budget to a separate budget when they 21 vote in November, should the bill pass here and 22 the Assembly. There is no additional cost to 23 the taxpayers of the village, state, nation, et 24 cetera. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 4049 1 Paterson. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 3 if Senator Holland would yield to a question. 4 I'd ask if Senator Holland would do me a favor. 5 I missed the last part of what he said. Would 6 you mind restating it for me? 7 SENATOR HOLLAND: There is no 8 additional taxes. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: I got that 10 part. 11 SENATOR HOLLAND: To the village, 12 county, state, nation, et cetera. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 14 I'm relieved. Thank you, Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 16 last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 24 is passed. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4050 1 576, by member of the Assembly Morelle, Assembly 2 Print 937, an act to amend the Education Law, in 3 relation to the practice of speech-language 4 pathology. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 6 last section. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 8 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 9 I understand someone asked for an explanation. 10 This bill would add one word to the practice of 11 speech-language pathology; that is, the word 12 "swallowing". Speech pathologists have long 13 treated this type of disorder because they have 14 the expertise in that field. They've done it in 15 hospitals, nursing homes, and so on, and this is 16 going to upgrade the statute to the current 17 practice as it is across the nation. It will be 18 covered by health insurance plans, malpractice 19 coverage. Everything seems to be in order for 20 this to pass as they've already done in the 21 Assembly. If anyone has a question they would 22 like to address? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 24 Paterson. 25 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 4051 1 if Senator Johnson would yield for a question. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 3 Johnson, do you yield for a question? Senator 4 yields. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I was 6 just hoping that you would relieve my concern. 7 I never knew that swallowing disorder was 8 associated with speech pathology even though 9 speech pathologists have treated it. I always 10 thought it was more related to an ear, nose and 11 throat problem, known as TMJ. Could you explain 12 to me where I'm in error? 13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, speech 14 language pathology, one of the -- they -- how 15 will I say this? They're not surgeons, they're 16 not doctors. They don't give pills. They teach 17 a person how to use the muscles of their throat. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Excuse me, Mr. 19 President. Is Senator Johnson using a cellular 20 phone? 21 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, the door 22 is open here, and there is a little noise. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 24 Johnson. 25 SENATOR JOHNSON: I will talk to 4052 1 the microphone instead of to you, Senator. I 2 hope you can hear it that way. I tried to look 3 at you when I did. The speech-language patholo 4 gists are more or less therapists. They're not 5 surgeons. They're not pill pushers; they teach a 6 person how to use their throat muscles, their 7 neck muscles, in their speech. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Will you 9 just hold for a minute. 10 SENATOR JOHNSON: Can you hear me 11 now? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 13 Johnson. 14 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I 15 don't know how much you heard of what I said 16 except that these are not eye, ear, nose and 17 throat people. These are people who teach 18 people how to speak after they've had drugs or 19 other diseases or removal of their vocal chords 20 or voice box, and so on. These people already 21 do that, and what we're saying is that the same 22 muscles and the same activity takes place when 23 you shorten your neck to swallow as when you 24 speak because when you teach them how to speak 25 you teach them how to swallow and we're only 4053 1 legitimatizing, we're only doing what they're 2 already trained to do and capable of doing in 3 connection with speech disorders. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 5 President. If Senator Johnson would continue to 6 yield. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Do you 8 continue? Senator yields. 9 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, how 11 was the disorder originally omitted from the 12 delineation of what was actually treatable? 13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I 14 wasn't here when this went into effect. I 15 couldn't tell you that. Maybe a lot of progress 16 has been made in this field where people were 17 not formerly treated at all and some of these 18 disorders were merely left mute or left unable 19 to swallow. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 21 Paterson. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 23 President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 25 last section. 4054 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take - 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: I'm 4 sorry. Senator Oppenheimer. 5 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Explain my 6 vote. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Well, we 8 have to read the last section. Secretary will 9 read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 16 Oppenheimer, to explain her vote. 17 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I would say 18 that this is probably a new area of speech 19 pathology, and one in which myself and my 20 youngest child had some -- has had really the 21 new area defined because of her problems, and 22 she spent about three and a half years with 23 speech pathologists trying to correct what 24 Senator Johnson is discussing is a swallowing 25 and a fright disorder of the muscles of the 4055 1 throat and actually in time there was developed 2 a procedure, an operation which did give her the 3 gift of speech overnight. Because they have 4 moved ahead with this area called velopharyngeal 5 insufficiency, there is now a considerable 6 cross-over in the last ten years, in six years 7 of speech pathologists and people who actually 8 do surgery and deal with the musculature of the 9 throat. So this is a very good bill, and I'm 10 very happy to vote against it. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 12 is passed. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Happy to vote 14 against it? 15 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I'm voting 16 for it. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 18 Oppenheimer voting in the positive. The 19 Secretary will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 620, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 3765, an 22 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 23 standardizing and improving. 24 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: 4056 1 Explanation has been requested by Senator Gold. 2 Senator Cook. 3 SENATOR COOK: Point of order. 4 Was the vote announced on the previous bill? 5 SENATOR GOLD: I can't hear you. 6 SENATOR COOK: I was just asking 7 whether the vote was actually announced on the 8 previous bill? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: No, it 10 was not. Announce the results. Secretary will 11 announce the results on Calendar 576. 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 14 is passed. 15 The Secretary will resume the 16 calendar. A request was made for an explanation 17 by the sponsor. 18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr. 19 President. 20 Mr. President, this bill is a 21 bill that the people who are working on 22 regulatory reform have suggested. I didn't just 23 take the bill without looking at it. I do think 24 at times we say, let's do this, let's do that. 25 Let's change this, let's change that. You know, 4057 1 sometimes people say, let's have no taxes at 2 all, and then I say, Well, let's do it. We'll 3 just have no taxes. And how much sense does 4 that make? 5 On the other hand, I do know that 6 all of us have constituents and all of us at 7 times get permits for various functions, busi 8 ness and otherwise, and this would standardize, 9 I was going to use the word "uniformity" but my 10 counsel says "standardize", so I'll use the word 11 "standardize". 12 Also what I like in this day when 13 I'm in the dark ages, when it comes to FAXes, 14 computers and the like, this will also make it 15 possible to use technology to submit your 16 applications and you will get it back by 17 technology which I think does make sense. I'm 18 even becoming a believer, Mr. President, in some 19 of this. 20 I do have to point out, my -- one 21 of my -- one of my sons noticed that I didn't 22 have an address for my computer address when 23 they put us up on the computer. I now have one, 24 so I guess it's time that we all get into the, 25 whatever century we're in, and I think this is a 4058 1 good suggestion. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 3 Gold. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Will my 5 distinguished colleague yield to a question? 6 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 8 yields. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I don't 10 think that anybody is arguing with the 11 generalization you gave. Now I'd be very 12 grateful if you could tell us what the bill does 13 and with some specificity, because generally 14 speaking, if you just say, you know, we want to 15 do something, standardize or whatever, it 16 doesn't tell me anything. 17 What does the bill do, if you 18 don't mind? 19 SENATOR STAFFORD: Very, very 20 valid point because I do tend to take sort of 21 broad strokes with the conceptual brush, and I 22 think sometimes very candidly more people should 23 do that in here. I don't think sometimes we 24 need some of the specifics that we get into, but 25 I think Senator Gold has every right to ask 4059 1 that, and I think it's a very fair question. 2 Apparently there's 38 state 3 agencies that have jurisdiction over more than 4 1100 business permits. The application for 5 these permits vary in color, size and composi 6 tion, therefore, special printing, manuals, 7 collating -- and, by the way, I looked up 8 "collating". That means nothing more than 9 putting things in order. I found that 10 interesting in this new day and age. Varied 11 filing; mailing systems are required to process 12 and store applications. 13 This legislation would allow 14 businesses to submit an application in the form 15 of a photocopy that generally or in computer 16 form is almost substantially identical to the 17 original application. This would reduce 18 paperwork, simplify the permitting work without 19 changing any substantive criteria in the 20 issuance of a permit. Further, it will reduce 21 the cost for permit applications for both the 22 state and the applicant. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 24 Gold. 25 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Will the 4060 1 gentleman yield to a question, please? 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 4 Stafford, do you yield? He yields. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, at the 6 present time, the various agencies responsible 7 for preparing applications at various times use 8 differences of color or size or shape or things 9 of that nature. I thought it would make it 10 easier administratively for them to do the 11 processing so that sometimes from the point of 12 view of their employees or personnel, they know 13 when things come in, for example, to the mail 14 room or whatever, that something goes to a 15 particular department. For example, I don't 16 know whether it's a good example or not, 17 Senator, but Fish and Wildlife, for example, 18 they may have different departments that deal 19 with hunting and with gun hunting versus long 20 bow hunting or fishing licenses for in-state or 21 out-of-state, et cetera, et cetera, and they may 22 or may not be done in different ways to make it 23 easier for them to handle them 24 administratively. 25 I don't know, but are we now 4061 1 perhaps going to be adding costs rather than 2 saving costs if we make it more difficult for 3 the agency to deal with the paperwork? 4 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, Mr. 5 President, I do not support Senator Gold's 6 position, but let me give you an argument in 7 support of what he's suggesting. I have been 8 here long enough that it won't be long before 9 when we have everything the same, we'll be 10 passing a law to make it different so that we 11 can differentiate. I know exactly what you're 12 saying. 13 On the other hand, I too come 14 down on the side of simplifying and making all 15 applications the same and being able to send it 16 by way of a computer and through technology. I 17 get the gist of your argument and your concerns 18 whenever this -- the role of this agency comes 19 forth, but I think it is a step in the right 20 direction. 21 I do think, when you see the 22 various applications that have to be filled out, 23 I think standardization to save paperwork 24 requirements relating to permit applications 25 will result in long-term savings to the state 4062 1 including eliminating the need to purchase 2 specialty paper as we were just talking, color, 3 sizes and bonds, and unique size envelopes and 4 we will minimize printing, postage and storage 5 costs. I think it makes sense. Businesses will 6 likely save significant time and expenses in 7 obtaining and preparing permit applications and 8 reduce the expenses associated with professional 9 services for preparation of the many forms. 10 Simplifying a permitting process 11 will encourage entrepreneurial activity and 12 provide greater productivity. As agencies 13 maintain increased numbers of applications on 14 computer systems rather than paper copies this 15 will reduce the cost of storing such records. 16 It will also encourage networking and sharing 17 information among permitting agencies and 18 achieve greater efficiencies in the permitting 19 process and, Senator Gold, if this just does one 20 thing, how many times have you and I -- and 21 we're in the Legislature, we both have law 22 degrees. How many times do you pick up an 23 application, they ask you a question and there 24 isn't even room to put the answer. How many 25 times do you see that? And you say to yourself, 4063 1 what, you know, it doesn't even make sense and, 2 you know, the person who isn't maybe in the loop 3 -- of course, I'm not convinced we're that much 4 in the loop sometimes, including me and both of 5 us -- but those of us who are in the loop if we 6 can start getting some of these applications and 7 some of these papers uniform and make some sense 8 out of some them, I want to try to do it. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Will the gentleman 10 yield to a question? 11 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 13 yields. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, three 15 questions based on what you just said. First of 16 all, Senator - 17 SENATOR STAFFORD: Not going to 18 use any of that against me. 19 SENATOR GOLD: First of all, 20 Senator, when you say that some applications 21 don't give you room for an answer, why doesn't 22 this bill which deals with standardization not 23 deal with that at all? 24 SENATOR STAFFORD: Because - 25 SENATOR GOLD: Excuse me, excuse 4064 1 me. 2 The bill, as I understand it, 3 Senator, doesn't tell the agencies they have got 4 to change the question. It doesn't tell them 5 that they've got to change the space for the 6 answer. You're just talking about, as I 7 understand it, the color of the paper, the size 8 of the paper. I don't know what it's going to 9 do. 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: Many times you 11 ask questions that are very penetrating and it's 12 difficult to have an answer. This one is not. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Good. 14 SENATOR STAFFORD: What I like is 15 it says right in here you can put the 16 application in computer form and answer it. In 17 other words, you more or less make your own 18 form, that's what I like, and you don't have a 19 form that you have to fill out and you have 20 three paragraphs with a little slot to put them 21 in. That's really what I was driving at. I've 22 found that, and sometimes it confuses me -- of 23 course, that's not difficult. 24 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 25 yield to a question? 4065 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 2 Stafford, do you yield? 3 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 5 yields. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, now 7 you've really confused me on an issue. I 8 thought that, when you -- when you were talking 9 about standardization it was to help the process 10 get a little easier. You now said that people 11 can create their own form. Are you saying that 12 if I wanted to apply for a certain license that 13 as long as the information was in there that I 14 FAXed over, even if it was in a different form, 15 it would have to be acceptable? 16 SENATOR STAFFORD: No, I have the 17 answer. I have the answer there. Now, you've 18 often heard me say that one man's floor is 19 another man's ceiling. 20 SENATOR GOLD: I remember often 21 you've said that. 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: Now, the point 23 here is that, when they provide the information 24 in answering or sending in for this permit, they 25 can put it in a form that is substantially 4066 1 identical, and I like that and I think it gives 2 them -- what's the word, leeway -- no, leeway is 3 an upstate word; got to have a downstate word 4 for him -- a flexibility that I think makes some 5 sense. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 7 yield to a question? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 9 Stafford, do you continue to yield? 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 12 Senator yields. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I think 14 that it's getting more confusing, not clearer, 15 because you started out by saying this is a bill 16 that's going to make things easier because of 17 the standardization. Now you're telling me that 18 the bill makes it easier to be more flexible. 19 Flexible takes it away from standardization. 20 Flexible means that when the paper gets to the 21 agency or the department, the person examining 22 it is now going to see something which may be, 23 quote, "substantially" similar to the other 24 application forms but not identical to that form 25 and, therefore, I would imagine they'll take 4067 1 more time for the civil servant or the person 2 dealing with it to have to deal with it because 3 now it's a new form. It's a flexible Stafford 4 form rather than a standardized form. 5 SENATOR STAFFORD: I'd rather you 6 didn't put any surname with it. On the other 7 hand, Mr. President, excuse me, through the 8 Chair, I don't think -- but I would say -- let 9 me say this. You know, don't -- you know, it's 10 the trouble sometimes with our minds. For 11 instance, if I say I like my hot dogs cooked, 12 that doesn't mean I like 'em burned. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 14 Gold. 15 SENATOR GOLD: That's the answer? 16 That's the answer? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 18 Gold, are you asking the Senator to yield? 19 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, one more 20 question. 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means. 22 SENATOR GOLD: My question on 23 flexibility only gets a hot dog as a response? 24 SENATOR STAFFORD: Hot dogs 25 started in Brooklyn. 4068 1 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, but I'm from 2 Queens, Senator. 3 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yeah, I know 4 it; that's why I said it. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 6 yield to a question? 7 SENATOR STAFFORD: Nathan's. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Reading 9 from your memo in support, you have made 10 reference to, on page 3, where it says 11 simplifying the permitting process will 12 encourage entrepreneurial activity. Are you 13 saying, Senator, that if we allow somebody to 14 FAX in an application that is black and white 15 rather than -- God bless you! -- black and 16 white rather than on a green form, somebody 17 might decide to do business in New York whereas 18 otherwise they'll take their $5 million plant 19 and put it in another state? 20 SENATOR STAFFORD: We're almost 21 there, Senator. You are helping me. Now, with 22 that, you're getting to the crux of it. Good 23 for you! Yes. 24 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. If the 25 Senator will yield to one more question? 4069 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Will the 2 Senator yield to one more question? 3 SENATOR GOLD: Well, one more 4 until the next one. On page 3, again it says 5 this will reduce the cost of storing such 6 records. 7 Senator, isn't it a fact that 8 what reduces the cost of storing records is a 9 process that almost all of the agencies are 10 trying to get involved with now and that is 11 scanning these records into computer disks and 12 into computer materials, and that's where the 13 real cost saving is, and if you're going to do 14 that, it doesn't matter whether you scan 15 something that's 8 x 10, 8 x 12 or 5 x 7. 16 SENATOR STAFFORD: Let me help 17 you with something, Senator. 18 SENATOR GOLD: I wish you would. 19 SENATOR STAFFORD: Have you ever 20 heard how many angels can dance on the head of a 21 pin? 22 SENATOR GOLD: I have that 23 answer. Yes, I've heard that, Senator. 24 SENATOR STAFFORD: Do you know 25 that they can take some kind of a chip, a thing 4070 1 -- do you know they can take a chip -- I read 2 this in both TIME and NEWSWEEK, so it must be 3 true -- and they can take a medium-sized law 4 office and take a storage room and not fill up a 5 -- what do you call it? No, a chip. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 7 Gold. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Will the 9 Senator yield to a question? 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 12 yields. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, you're 14 doin' great. We're getting there. That's my 15 point, Senator. I assume you're agreeing with 16 me. If we could take a medium-sized law office 17 and put all the information in that law office 18 in one little chip -- and, by the way, Senator, 19 you know, we all are used to computerized 20 mechanisms and I know you win the day when it 21 comes to small phones -- yours is about half the 22 size of mine -- but, Senator, do you realize 23 that the reason that your phone is the size it 24 is is because of the human hand? If it wasn't 25 for the human hand being so big, that telephone 4071 1 could be the size of -- a hundredth the size of 2 your nail? 3 SENATOR STAFFORD: Will the 4 Senator yield to one question? 5 SENATOR GOLD: Oh, my pleasure. 6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Do you know 7 why the hand is so important? Because you can 8 touch this finger (indicating the index finger) 9 to the thumb. That makes all the difference. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 11 Gold. 12 SENATOR GOLD: I'm writing that 13 down. Wait a minute. Yeah, that separates us 14 from apes, I understand, right. But Senator, 15 the point is - 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 17 Gold, are you asking the Senator to yield? 18 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, I was in the 19 middle of my question; thank you. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 21 Stafford, do you continue to yield? 22 SENATOR GOLD: But the point is, 23 Senator, and what I'm getting at and you stated 24 it so beautifully in the articulate way you 25 always answer me, a chip -- an entire little 4072 1 chip can do an entire law office, it's 2 incredible, and the only reason our computer 3 equipment, as I was saying, is the size that it 4 is, is because of the size of our fingers. If 5 we could get -- if our fingers were smaller, the 6 chip capacity is extraordinary and much smaller; 7 however, if that is true, Senator, and we all 8 know that to be true, and we all know that 9 throughout the court system and throughout the 10 agencies, there are huge amounts of money that 11 this Legislature has authorized for the specific 12 purpose of computerizing our recordkeeping, so, 13 Senator, all I'm saying to you is, I know that 14 as much as you like to kid, Senator, you are a 15 very successful businessman and a very sophisti 16 cated citizen who the computer age has not left 17 behind, and I know that. So, Senator, I'm sure 18 you know that, if you take today's scanning 19 devices -- and I'm not talking about very, very 20 sophisticated and very expensive scanning 21 devices, I'm talking about going to -- I don't 22 want to give a store a plug, but any of the 23 local electronic stores and for a few hundred 24 dollars you can buy scanning equipment which 25 will take your wallet-sized photograph, it will 4073 1 take an 8 x 12 photograph, it will take an 8 x 2 10 page, an 8 x 12 page and that is basically 3 the way recordkeeping is done. 4 So it seems to me, Senator, that 5 if it's a question as you say here, of reducing 6 the costs of storing records, that's what's 7 going to reduce the cost of storing records on 8 computerization, not whether or not we 9 standardize a sheet of paper. 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I think 11 that if we're better organized and it's 12 standardized and it's methodical, I think it 13 goes without saying that it also will make the 14 storage simpler and more efficient. I would 15 suggest that - 16 SENATOR GOLD: Well, will the 17 Senator yield to one more question? We're down 18 near the end now. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator, 20 do you yield to one more question? The Senator 21 yields. 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: Senator Marchi 23 said res ipsa loquitur. That's a local thing. 24 SENATOR GOLD: Sic utere tuo ut 25 alienum non laedas, Senator. 4074 1 Senator, we -- I know we don't do 2 things for no reason, and you were very, very 3 smart to point out something, and I don't know 4 whether it's smart as much as you and I have 5 been around long enough to see these curves go 6 up and down, Senator, so as you said we'll pass 7 this law and then Gus will still be around in a 8 few years when we pass the new law that says 9 it's got to be green, red, yellow, back again. 10 But, Senator, do we have any idea 11 what we're really talking about in money here? 12 In other words, you as a businessman know that 13 when it comes to buying in quantity, that 14 there's still a bottom line, and if you're 15 buying bulk, whether it's bulk green paper and 16 red paper and white paper, when you get to a 17 certain amount of that bulk, it's all the same 18 price, whether it's red, green or white. 19 There's no -- there's no cost savings. The only 20 cost savings may be if you're dealing with 21 limited quantities, so that's not a cost 22 saving. 23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Senator, could 24 I ask? 25 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, go ahead. 4075 1 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would just 2 point out that you follow this type of thing, I 3 don't know whether they're still the wealthiest 4 or not, but there was the wealthiest on the list 5 and then they divided it up four ways and there 6 was still the wealthiest, what business they 7 were in -- yeah, what business they were in was 8 buying in bulk. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Right. 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: And 11 interestingly enough, when you do that, it's 12 saving, handling, negotiating, and, of course, 13 that's been a secret of -- of that company and 14 you look at some of these other companies that 15 are booming, you look at the mergers, that's 16 really what it's all about, and I would say it's 17 indeed suggested that if -- when you get into 18 buying more bulk, you save even more. That's 19 what's the word ex... Go ahead, David. What is 20 it? Expert... 21 SENATOR GOLD: Ex post facto. 22 SENATOR STAFFORD: No, no. 23 SENATOR GOLD: That's what he 24 said. 25 SENATOR STAFFORD: Exponential, 4076 1 in other words it multiplies. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, 3 exponential. 4 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes, all 5 right. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, the 7 last question really -- I'll come back to that 8 paper stuff, but the last question I'd like to 9 ask you, sir. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator, 11 are you asking the Senator to yield? 12 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, yes. 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means. 14 SENATOR GOLD: When all is said 15 and done, Senator -- when all is said and done, 16 what is the state really talking about in saving 17 money for this 1.8 million applications that 18 we're talking about where we are actually just 19 changing this whole process, and do you have any 20 idea what we're talking about in cost savings? 21 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would -- I 22 would say that it's going to be large because of 23 just the principle again of buying in bulk when 24 one department buys, another division buys, 25 another department. 4077 1 SENATOR GOLD: Is the savings in 2 the paper costs, is that what you're talking 3 about? 4 SENATOR STAFFORD: This will make 5 a savings in everything. You can borrow from 6 the permit and it will be personnel savings. I 7 just think, Senator Marchi mentioned this -- now 8 I'll use it, thank you, Senator -- but I believe 9 res ipsa loquitur means the thing speaks for 10 itself, is that correct? Well, it speaks for 11 itself, that if you streamline things, buy in 12 bulk, have the same people working on forms for 13 every agency, have it centralized, have cost 14 controls, have savings, I think it makes a great 15 deal of sense, inventory control, that type of 16 thing, and this is the type of activity that 17 government has started to get into now, because 18 again, they're finding that the people are 19 demanding it for various reasons that we won't 20 go into today. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Mr. 22 President, I hate to do this, but that answer 23 did raise another question because I don't 24 understand that answer. Senator Stafford - 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 4078 1 Stafford, do you yield for one more question? 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, Senator 4 Stafford, when you're talking to me about bulk 5 purchases, to me that's paper. But you also 6 mentioned to me inventory control, I don't know 7 what that has to do with anything, and you also 8 mentioned personnel savings. Senator, it would 9 seem to me that if the forms that are coming in 10 to the various agencies now are different than 11 what they're used to dealing with and they're 12 not separated by color, it seems to me that 13 you're going to have a slowdown of personnel, 14 not because they are doing anything wrong and 15 they would do anything wrong, but just in the 16 natural course and flow of it and when you say 17 standardization, Senator, the wording has to be 18 different, that somebody applying for an 19 exemption under a pollution code, it's not the 20 same information as the guy that wants a fishing 21 license or the same information as someone who 22 wants to get copies of a birth record, so the 23 information on all these forms is obviously 24 totally different, and the only thing I've heard 25 you talk about so far, Senator, is buying paper 4079 1 in bulk. Other than that, I don't know what 2 we're talking about. 3 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I've 4 tried to say more. I'm sorry that I haven't 5 gotten it across better. Let me try again. 6 I'll start over. Maybe we're getting off base 7 here by talking about saving funds which I think 8 is something we're trying to do, but let's take 9 this tack of being user friendly. That's 10 something -- a term now that's used often like 11 win/win. 12 Now, I think "user friendly" 13 means, we want -- we want the state to be 14 treating their people in a way that, as you 15 mentioned, and by the way, you were getting 16 right into the swing of things here when you - 17 you know, you were saying it better than I, when 18 people would want to do business here in the 19 state if our permit system was organized, 20 standardized, computerized and made -- set up in 21 a way that made some sense, and then people 22 could be entrepreneurial. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. Mr. 24 President, on the bill. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 4080 1 Gold, on the bill. 2 SENATOR GOLD: I want to, first 3 of all, thank Senator Stafford, who is not only 4 bright but has his own way and really clarified 5 this issue for me in a way that few others 6 could. 7 I do have some questions about 8 the bill. First of all, Mr. President, the 9 agencies are run by the appointed representa 10 tives of our former distinguished colleague, 11 Governor George Pataki, and it seems to me, Mr. 12 President, that it is not in the law that a 13 particular application is green or pink or red 14 or white or whatever. There are some places in 15 the law where we require certain kinds of 16 information but we do not tell any agency the 17 size and shape or color of this applications or 18 its permits. 19 It seems to me that for less 20 money than the printing of this bill, Governor 21 Pataki could call each agency head -- as a 22 matter of fact, I don't suggest the Governor do 23 it. He has more important things to do. We 24 still don't have a budget. We're not supposed 25 to talk about that but we don't, but it seems to 4081 1 me somebody from the Governor's office could 2 call each agency head and say, Look, guys. 3 We're in the 20th Century, almost the 21st 4 Century, and if somebody FAXes in an 5 application, as long as they don't FAX in a 6 check and the check is for real, you ought to 7 really consider the application and we ought to 8 make everything user friendly, and I would think 9 that in terms of cutting the costs of 10 government, that would have been one way to cut 11 the cost of government rather than spend the 12 government's money to print this bill. A simple 13 phone call. All of those agency heads are 14 controlled by the Governor. 15 As far as the issue of specialty 16 paper and bulk purchases, Senator Stafford, as 17 usual, when it comes to business issues, you are 18 correct and, if I wanted to buy a ream of paper 19 and you wanted to buy 1,000 reams of paper, 20 you're going to get a good price but, Senator, 21 you know as a businessman that that bottom - 22 that paper company has a bottom line. That 23 bottom line may be at 1,000 reams, it may be 24 2,000 reams. Whatever it is, the state of New 25 York is well past those bottom lines. So that 4082 1 if you placed an order for paper for the state 2 of New York and you made it all white paper or 3 you made it white, green, pink and zinc or 4 whatever colors you wanted, the price wouldn't 5 vary one iota because you've already reached 6 that huge purchase allotment. So that is rather 7 unpersuasive. 8 I am concerned, Senator, with the 9 argument that we will, in fact, be helping 10 personnel. It seems to me, Senator, that the 11 Civil Service force in this state, extremely 12 competent work force, has a tough job and as we 13 consistently cut personnel, as we consistently 14 have cutbacks, our job shouldn't be to make 15 their jobs harder, and it seems to me right now 16 they are used to dealing with certain documents. 17 The documents are readily available. It's not 18 like they are not readily available and those 19 documents are handled in a way which seems to 20 run very smoothly. 21 Now, you take somebody in Fish 22 and Wildlife and you explain to them that they 23 can't deal with the paperwork that they have 24 been dealing with for a year or two because 25 people over in the Health Department are used to 4083 1 dealing with a different kind of paper and 2 they'll look at all of us like we're a bit 3 meshugge and David will explain what that means 4 later, but they'll think we're nuts. Each 5 department already has its paperwork. 6 Now, Senator, if the only thing 7 your bill did was to say that if somebody has 8 the form of the agency and they FAX it in, you 9 don't need an original, I don't see anything 10 wrong with that. I don't think anybody here 11 would see anything wrong with that. 12 If your bill said, Senator, that 13 you should be able to call up an agency and have 14 them FAX an application to you and you could 15 fill it out and FAX it back and they would, 16 let's say, work some way that you could pay them 17 so that they were comfortable with that, I don't 18 see anything wrong with that either, but the 19 "standardization" word, I think is just way out 20 of proportion to what is necessary to handle a 21 problem and, as I indicated to you, Senator, 22 this is an interesting situation when you talk 23 about storage costs and things like that because 24 this -- that argument flies in contradiction to 25 the way agencies are now being encouraged to 4084 1 operate. 2 As far as the standardization 3 versus flexibility, I just think, Senator, we 4 have to know which way you're going. If 5 standardization means that everybody uses the 6 same form but you can FAX it in or not FAX it 7 in, that's one thing. If it means that it's 8 standardized to the point where you can be 9 flexible, well, flexible is not standardization 10 and I must tell you, Senator, I liked what you 11 said about flexibility because obviously if an 12 agency needs information it's more important 13 that they get the information than the 14 particular little itemization as to how they get 15 it but, Senator, there comes a point where I 16 know I've got to make a decision on this bill 17 because we just can't spend the valuable time in 18 this Legislature, you know, any more on this 19 particular bill -- although I would like to 20 because it's a fascinating subject and I have 21 become riveted to it -- I know I've got to make 22 up my mind as to which way to vote, and I say to 23 myself, Senator Stafford, few times -- and you 24 have never heard me say that -- that's your 25 line, you have never heard me say this again 4085 1 but, Senator, there are few times when members 2 have gotten up on a piece of legislation with 3 the degree of sincerity, the degree of clarity, 4 the degree of desire for accomplishment as you 5 have on this bill. 6 So I'm going to give you my vote. 7 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 9 last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect on the 365th day. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 686, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 4176, an act 20 to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in 21 relation to payment by milk dealers. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 24 Kuhl, an explanation has been requested by 25 Senator Paterson. 4086 1 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, Mr. 2 President. As many of the members here may 3 remember, over the years we have tried to 4 provide protections for our dairy farmers and 5 particularly by establishing certain protection 6 accounts which will guarantee the fact that 7 there are fundings -- funds available to pay 8 them and also we've tried to help them from a 9 business standpoint by requiring that payments 10 made to them by the purchasers of their milk at 11 the farm level pay within a certain period of 12 time. 13 What we're finding now is that 14 there is a small community out in the western 15 part of the state, mainly the Amish, who have 16 been forced because of the criteria that we make 17 a requirement for the sale of certain types of 18 milk and for the payments, that are being forced 19 to either sell their milk illegally under the 20 system that we currently have or not sell it at 21 all. 22 This is a very simple bill that 23 would allow for the sale of what's called 24 non-Grade A milk to be extended rather than 25 being paid by the tenth of the month or by the 4087 1 end of the month to have an extension of, I 2 believe it's 90 days thereafter at the end of 3 the month to have that payment made to them. 4 This is essentially a request 5 coming from that segment of the agricultural 6 community who envisions no market for the milk 7 and being forced out of this business if this 8 particular change is not made. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 10 Paterson. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 12 President. 13 If Senator Kuhl would yield for a 14 question. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 16 Kuhl, will you yield for a question? 17 SENATOR KUHL: Absolutely. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator, 19 am I correct in assuming that since the milk is 20 non-Grade A, therefore, the time in which it 21 must be sold is extended to such an extent that 22 it would accommodate what you're trying to 23 accomplish in this bill? 24 SENATOR KUHL: I don't think I 25 understood the question, Senator. 4088 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 2 Paterson. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 4 Since -- Senator, what I'm saying 5 is that since there is -- there are not the 6 constraints that there would be if this was 7 Grade A milk being sold and this is a small 8 amount of the milk that's actually sold in New 9 York State, therefore, that would make it 10 feasible for this legislation to actually be 11 passed and for this accommodation to be made to 12 the Amish, the individuals who are most closely 13 affected by the fact that the delay in paying 14 the dealer is something that they need? 15 SENATOR KUHL: Senator, the 16 statistics I have is -- are that this is 17 essentially an insignificant portion of the 18 overall sale of milk in the state. It's less 19 than two-tenths -- yeah, two-tenths of one 20 percent of all the milk that's sold or 21 purchased, however you want to look at it, in 22 the state of New York. So it's a relatively 23 small group of individuals. I think it's 24 roughly 180 dairy farmers out of thousands that 25 exist in the state. 4089 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 2 President. 3 If Senator Kuhl would continue to 4 yield. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator, 6 do you continue to yield? 7 SENATOR KUHL: Yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 9 Senator yields. 10 Senator Paterson. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, who 12 are the dealers that would actually be affected 13 by this? You said there would be 180 farmers 14 but - 15 SENATOR KUHL: Primarily these 16 are what we call the manufactured milk dealers; 17 in other words, people who produce cheese. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: If the Senator 19 would continue to yield, Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Does the 21 Senator continue to yield? 22 SENATOR KUHL: Yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 24 Senator continues to yield. 25 SENATOR PATERSON: Then, Senator, 4090 1 are they on the record in terms of what they 2 would consider this delay in the payment to be? 3 SENATOR KUHL: I don't have any 4 memo but they're kind of put in a position that 5 either they purchase the milk illegally under 6 the current requirements relative to payment, 7 which means they cannot provide payment because 8 what they're doing is they're buying the milk 9 currently on contract. The law of the state of 10 New York requires a payment within a very short 11 period of time, yet they're not able to sell 12 their product because of the length of time for 13 production of the cheese, so they don't have the 14 revenues to pay the farmers. What the farmers 15 are saying is that we don't mind waiting that 16 60, 90, 120 days for them to get the money to be 17 able to pay us for the milk because if we don't 18 do that, then we won't be able to sell our milk 19 and we will be totally out of business. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator -- Mr. 21 President, now I understand exactly what it is 22 you're trying to accomplish, the point being 23 that the real reason that they can't pay is that 24 unless there was some great surplus that 25 obviously from your explanation does not exist, 4091 1 there are no resources to actually make those 2 payments, rendering them in a position of - 3 being in a position of not being able to pay and 4 so that's the reason for the legislation? 5 SENATOR KUHL: That's the reason 6 for the legislation, Senator. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, now I 8 have understanding. 9 SENATOR KUHL: Thank you. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 11 last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 19 is passed. 20 The Secretary will read Calendar 21 349. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 349, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 3358-A, an 24 act to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law 25 and others, in relation to the enforcement of 4092 1 the prohibition. 2 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. - 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the 4 last section. 5 SENATOR VOLKER: Hold it. Hold 6 it. Are we waiting for somebody or -- Franz? 7 Okay. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 9 Volker. 10 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 11 let me explain the bill. Do you want me to 12 explain it? 13 SENATOR PATERSON: With Senator 14 Volker's permission, could we hold this just for 15 a moment? Senator Leichter had a question on 16 it. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 18 Volker. 19 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 20 this bill would increase the penalties for 21 persons under the age of 21 who purchase 22 alcoholic beverages and basically who have 23 previously been convicted. 24 There is presently in the law a 25 statute that speaks of the use of false or 4093 1 fraudulent identification and allows the 2 possibility of the use of suspension of 3 licenses. This would broaden that use upon a 4 second offense of illegal purchase of alcoholic 5 beverages and additionally for a third or 6 subsequent violation, the offender, which would 7 be the person who bought under 21, would have to 8 submit to an evaluation to determine whether the 9 person is suffering from alcoholism. In other 10 words, following the manner in which we deal 11 with DWI statutes, this would further deal with 12 people who, on a number of occasions, purchase 13 alcohol illegally under the age of 21. 14 Finally, the bill would authorize 15 the State Liquor Authority to develop and 16 establish a minimum criteria for a training 17 awareness program which would give employees of 18 these establishments, of the people who sell on 19 and off premises an opportunity to have their 20 employees trained to -- as far as alcoholic 21 beverage sales are concerned and the completion 22 of the program could provide an affirmative 23 defense by the licensee in a proceeding, revoke 24 his license or suspend it. Of course, if there 25 was a showing of deliberation or that the owner 4094 1 even or the person involved deliberately sold it 2 to a person under age and knew that they did, 3 then they could still be -- the Liquor Authority 4 would still proceed under the Alcoholic Beverage 5 Control Law. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 8 Leichter. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 10 if Senator Volker would please yield, please. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 12 Senator yields. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, let 14 me say that I certainly applaud your effort to 15 try to deal with the problem of under age 16 drinking, and I'm sure that all of us are 17 grateful for an effort to try to deal with what 18 is a serious problem. I'm just concerned about 19 certain of the provisions here and I wanted to 20 ask you a couple of questions, if I may, about 21 them. 22 One concern I have is you provide 23 for an evaluation for a third offense. 24 SENATOR VOLKER: M-m h-m-m. 25 SENATOR LEICHTER: And that 4095 1 evaluation is to be paid for by the offender, is 2 that correct? 3 SENATOR VOLKER: M-m h-m-m. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Now, what 5 happens if the offender is incapable of paying 6 for the evaluation? 7 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, what 8 normally happens in any of these is, as you 9 know, if the person is unable to pay for 10 something, then the court would order the 11 evaluation to be done at the expense of the - 12 of the county, basically, because that's a 13 system now that would be considered a poor 14 defendant and, therefore, they would be 15 considered -- by the way, this happens very 16 infrequently because the numbers of these 17 multiple offenses are fairly infrequent because 18 they only obviously go to the person that is 19 under 21. So when they become 21, then the 20 whole system changes, but it is presumed that 21 what would happen is that then any evaluation 22 would be paid for by the local jurisdiction. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Again, if 24 Senator Volker would be good enough to continue 25 to yield. 4096 1 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, 3 that's certainly a perfectly reasonable way of 4 doing it, but while you infer that or imply 5 that, it's certainly not stated in your bill and 6 I don't know whether necessarily the courts or 7 the counties would accept your interpretation in 8 the absence of the bill being silent as to the 9 procedures that would be applied where somebody 10 is incapable of paying. 11 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, I think 12 under -- I would accept that except for the fact 13 that we generally -- there's other areas of the 14 law where we don't do that either because the 15 so-called poor persons provisions of both the 16 County Law and I believe of the State Law 17 provide that where you are unable to pay for not 18 only just an attorney but are unable to pay for 19 some services, that the local jurisdiction has 20 to foot the bill if it's part of a penalty that 21 is pursuant to a -- to a statute. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator, 24 do you continue to yield? 25 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 4097 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 2 Senator yields. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 4 think the instances which you're referring to 5 are services that are rendered by the county. 6 Here it could well be argued that this is a 7 service or, if you will, a requirement of the 8 state. At the very least, I think you'll have 9 to agree with me that it's an unfunded mandate 10 to put this cost on the -- on the counties and 11 I'm concerned that we may find ourselves in a 12 situation where these evaluations -- that are 13 not inexpensive, by the way, Senator -- are 14 going to be required to be done. Counties are 15 going to refuse to do it or certainly is going 16 to refuse to bear the costs, and I think that 17 you would have a better bill if you provided 18 that this was going to be a state charge. 19 SENATOR VOLKER: I don't know. 20 We can certainly look into that. I think that 21 the reason that we really haven't gotten into 22 that is the numbers of people, as I understand 23 it, that are in this sort of a position are so 24 small that we're really talking about 25 comparatively a handful of people, as I 4098 1 understand it. 2 I think you're aware probably, 3 Senator, that the numbers of people who are even 4 charged under the previous section, what is it, 5 65, I think, of the -- I forget the number. I 6 think it was 65 of the -- S. 65(b) of the 7 Alcoholic Beverage Control Law are, I believe 8 less than 50, if I'm not mistaken, but they're 9 very, very small and one of the things I think 10 there's hope for is that there will be a little 11 more diligence by the local authorities in 12 dealing with these kinds of cases if we upgrade 13 and improve the law, but the chances of getting 14 very many three-time violators that will be 15 subject to this evaluation, frankly, is very, 16 very slim and -- but that's something certainly, 17 Senator, that we can look at in terms of whether 18 just to be safe, and I certainly would address 19 that if you think it is a problem. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 21 if Senator Volker would continue to yield. 22 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 24 Senator yields. 25 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, 4099 1 you're absolutely right that the number of 2 three-time offenders is fairly low now but the 3 reason is we have very poor enforcement of the 4 under age drinking law. I think I've seen 5 statistics that 75 to 80 percent of the people 6 under the age of 21 do drink on occasion. I 7 don't suggest that they're alcoholics. I don't 8 believe they are, but I think we know that on 9 colleges and high schools in our communities, we 10 have a terrific amount of under age drinking 11 that the authorities either are incapable of 12 dealing with or haven't really paid that much 13 attention, and I imagine one of the purposes of 14 your bill is to make people more conscious of it 15 to increase enforcement so those 50, if we 16 started enforcing the law, are going to become 17 500, 5,000 and conceivably even more. 18 So I would suggest to you that I 19 think some procedure whereby we provide for 20 payment of these evaluations for those people 21 who are indigent and I think a number of them, 22 considering the fact that young children don't 23 have -- young children -- youths don't have this 24 amount of money, that I think this does present 25 a problem. 4100 1 Senator, if I may continue to ask 2 you about other features of the bill. 3 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 5 Senator yields. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: I know you 7 provide that for a first violation, there's an 8 automatic three-month suspension of a driver's 9 license. 10 Now, I understand we want to be 11 very firm. On the other hand, it seems to me a 12 question whether or not being in a certain sense 13 counterproductive, and I frankly just raise a 14 question. I don't know how I feel. On the one 15 hand, I certainly want to discourage under age 16 drinking. On the other hand, there's a lot of 17 20-year-olds who have jobs, who need their cars, 18 who may stop off and have a beer. Are we now 19 going to take away their driver's license? Are 20 we going to make it impossible for them to earn 21 a living? I think you sort of have to weigh the 22 alternatives here and maybe, you know, this sort 23 of tough love approach maybe may have more 24 toughness in it than love. 25 SENATOR VOLKER: Yeah. I think 4101 1 -- I think -- by the way, you probably have 2 noticed that under the subdivision that's 3 involved here, the subdivision of the Vehicle 4 and Traffic Law, that the commissioner is 5 allowed to issue restricted licenses even though 6 there's a mandatory situation as far as the 7 suspension is concerned. So you could have the 8 same situation as you have with a first offense 9 versus -- as far as DWI is concerned and that is 10 that the commissioner could issue a restricted 11 license to that person and when it gets to the 12 second offense, of course, it gets into a little 13 different situation, but that could happen. 14 I think the issue that you have 15 to deal with, I guess, is whether you're either 16 going to deal with this kind of an issue on a 17 firm and yet not overly tough way or, I guess, 18 whether you're going to leave such flexibility 19 that what continues to happen is what's happened 20 in the past and then you and I, I think, know, 21 Senator, that there's virtually no enforcement 22 now of the alcohol beverage laws for young 23 people other than suspending your license - 24 suspending or revoking the license of the 25 establishment. Almost no one is ever charged or 4102 1 convicted -- much less convicted of youthful 2 violations of this statute, and I think the 3 attempt is being made here to set up some sort 4 of standards that will be useful in enforcing 5 this statute. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if 7 you continue to yield. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Volker, do you continue to yield? Senator 10 Volker, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 Senator continues to yield. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, one 15 approach that I don't see in your bill and some 16 efforts have been made at it and maybe your 17 bill, frankly, would be a more effective 18 approach to dealing with under age drinking, if 19 it also addressed the problem of education, 20 provided some money for schools to give courses 21 or have instruction on the pitfalls of drinking, 22 alcoholism, and so on. 23 I mean, one of the difficulties 24 we have, we have a society where young people, 25 they're watching a football game. They'll see 4103 1 advertisements about beer, drinking and the good 2 life if you drink beer and they see commercials 3 or they see billboards. They see their parents, 4 their friends who are over age drinking. 5 There's an awful lot of temptations and maybe 6 what we need to do besides saying to them, We're 7 going to wrap your knuckles if you drink, is 8 also to give them a greater incentive and a 9 greater awareness of what responsible drinking 10 is about and the importance of obeying the law. 11 Have you considered that approach? 12 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, the 13 problem with that approach is we are already 14 spending a great deal of money, frankly, in the 15 DWI area and, as you well know, there is 16 enormous advertising in the DWI area and, in 17 fact, we are developing a number of courses at 18 different schools, specifically and admittedly 19 designed to DWI but it's primarily designed - 20 aimed at young people and the problem of 21 drinking and driving, but I think the problem 22 is, Senator, that if we try to develop a program 23 on under age drinking on alcohol itself, we 24 could expend a tremendous amount of money on 25 such a program and it may be something we can 4104 1 think about, but I suspect strongly if you 2 talked to any local authorities, they will tell 3 you that we already have one of the most 4 effective education programs around, which is 5 the programs that deal with youthful drinking as 6 far as driving is concerned and I just don't 7 think that at this point that we would be very 8 successful with a bill of this nature if we 9 tried to fund it thoroughly as far as an 10 education program is concerned. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Volker, do you continue to yield? 14 SENATOR VOLKER: Yep. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Senator continues to yield. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I'm 18 not sure that you would have to spend a great 19 deal of money. You would have to spend some 20 money but, as you know, the costs of alcoholism 21 in our society are enormous and an investment in 22 better education might make a great deal of 23 difference and end up saving us large sums of 24 money and all of the costs that are associated 25 with alcoholism, all the damage that alcoholism 4105 1 does. 2 Senator, you referred to programs 3 that are being developed by some schools but do 4 you know whether there's a statewide program to 5 deal with alcoholism in the schools and all of 6 the high schools maybe have one or two courses 7 or lectures during the course of the year, show 8 pictures, not just the DWI because the DWI, 9 obviously it affects young people but it affects 10 all people and that program is not one that's 11 specifically geared to young people and deals 12 with under age drinking. 13 SENATOR VOLKER: Yeah. I think, 14 though, Senator, that you'll find, as far as the 15 State University is concerned, there are 16 programs that are aimed at under age drinking. 17 As a matter of fact, most of the state 18 universities now have been looking at some of 19 the drinking problems on their campuses and not 20 only the public campuses but also the private 21 campuses have been doing a lot of soul searching 22 as far as such programs because of problems that 23 have occurred because of drinking. 24 As far as high schools are 25 concerned, I think you're right that, although 4106 1 the programs are not being provided in general 2 but virtually every school that I'm aware of, 3 certainly in my district, provides some sort of 4 program that deals with the dangers of drinking 5 and driving and youthful drinking in general. I 6 think the Commissioner of Education, in fact, is 7 looking at such programs right now. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 9 on the bill. 10 I think this is a very, very 11 tough bill and let me say we're dealing with a 12 very serious problem. On the other hand, 13 there's -- and I'm not suggesting this in one 14 moment on the part of Senator Volker but I think 15 more on part of our society, there's a little 16 hypocrisy because, you know, we say, Oh, my 17 goodness. We have under age drinking and at the 18 same time we provide so many stimulants to young 19 people and so many examples that leads them to 20 drink and the real problem of alcoholism is 21 really throughout our society. It's not limited 22 to people who are under the age of 21. The 23 problem of DWI is not limited to people under 24 the age of 21. 25 So while we crack down very hard 4107 1 on the under age drinkers, we ought to realize 2 that it's a societalwide problem that I don't 3 believe can be dealt with just by saying to 4 young people, We're going to take away your 5 license. We're going to have you evaluated. 6 We're going to be really tough, but once you 7 reach the age of 21, and so on, you know, in our 8 society, drinking is quite celebrated. 9 So while I'm going to support the 10 bill, I think it could be made a much better 11 bill if it also dealt with the whole problem of 12 education, if we maybe provided incentives to 13 young people not to drink, if we made them 14 understand some of the risks of starting 15 drinking at an early age, the risks of 16 alcoholism, how to distinguish between what is 17 really recreational drinking and what becomes a 18 dangerous form of alcoholism. 19 I also pointed out I think some 20 ways that Senator Volker can improve the bill, 21 certainly as far as the evaluation is concerned 22 because, while providing that evaluation, 23 Senator, it's not clear to me who's going to do 24 it, who's going to pay for it. I think if it's 25 a worthwhile effort, than we ought to make sure 4108 1 that it's done in a responsible, effective way. 2 It should be paid for by the state. We 3 shouldn't have an unfunded mandate. There's a 4 lot of talk in this chamber about unfunded 5 mandates, but every week I see one or two or 6 sometimes more bills coming -- sponsored by the 7 very same people who talk about we've got to get 8 rid of unfunded mandates. 9 So, Senator, I think you've 10 addressed an important problem, a very serious 11 problem, and I want to support you in that 12 effort. I think there's provisions in there 13 that are good but tough love is fine as long as 14 there isn't just toughness, there's also love, 15 and I don't find that sort of support and that 16 sort of direction and that sort of aid that we 17 want to give young people that I think is going 18 to make for a more effective program to reduce 19 under age drinking. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 21 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill? 22 (There was no response.) 23 Hearing none, the Secretary will 24 read the last section. 25 THE SECRETARY: Section 9. This 4109 1 act shall take effect on the first day of 2 January. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Record 7 the negatives. 8 Senator DeFrancisco to explain 9 his vote. 10 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I'm going 11 to vote in the negative. Senator Leichter 12 mentioned about the hypocrisy of this particular 13 bill. In one respect, I think it's a bill that 14 has a lot of hypocrisy in it for another 15 reason. You know, yesterday we were at a lot of 16 events for Memorial Day, many of whom -- many of 17 which dealt with young people who died for their 18 country. If we have an alcohol problem in this 19 country or in this state, we should have laws 20 that apply to everybody across the board. If 21 you vote and if you're 18 years of age, you 22 should be able to do the same things as anyone 23 else in that -- of this society and to suggest 24 that because there's a huge alcohol problem in 25 this state, that we're going to penalize a young 4110 1 person who's between 18 and 21 years old by not 2 only fining them but also taking away their 3 driver's privileges for one drink, I think is a 4 little bit overboard, to say the least and if 5 it's a great idea, and if it's a wonderful idea 6 that we want to embrace in this conference, in 7 this body, then why don't we make it across the 8 board so it deals with everyone of all ages if 9 it's such a great problem. 10 So for those reasons, I'm going 11 to vote no on this bill. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 DeFrancisco will be recorded in the negative. 14 Announce the results when tabulated. 15 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 16 the negative on Calendar Number 349 are Senators 17 Cook, DeFrancisco, Montgomery and Stavisky. 18 Ayes 56, nays 4. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 Senator Skelos. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 23 Calendar Number 456, would you lay that aside 24 for the day. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar 4111 1 Number 456, laid aside for the day at the 2 request of the sponsor. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: And also at the 4 request of the sponsor, if you would lay aside 5 for the day Calendar Number 869. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar 7 Number 869 will be laid aside at the request of 8 the sponsor. 9 Senator Skelos. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: We're waiting 11 for -- Senator Stafford's bill is next. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 Secretary will call the controversial calendar, 14 regular order, Calendar Number 741. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 741, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 1342-A, 17 an act to amend the Family Court Act, in 18 relation to providing for a Family Court judge 19 in Clinton County. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explanation. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay that aside 22 temporarily. Would you please take up Senator 23 Meier's bill, Calendar Number 753. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar 25 Number 741 is laid aside temporarily. The 4112 1 Secretary will read Calendar Number 753 by 2 Senator Meier. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 753, by Senator Meier, Senate Print 4110-A, 5 concurrent resolution of the Senate and 6 Assembly, proposing an amendment to Section 6 of 7 Article V. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Meier for an explanation. 11 SENATOR MEIER: Mr. President, as 12 you know, the Constitution, in setting up the 13 Civil Service system in this state, provides for 14 additional credit to be given to people who have 15 been discharged honorably from the Armed Forces 16 after serving during a time of war. 17 This resolution proposes a 18 constitutional amendment which basically 19 clarifies at what point those qualifications 20 must be possessed. 21 The present provisions of the 22 Constitution are unclear as to whether a veteran 23 must qualify at the time of taking the 24 examination or at the time of receiving the 25 appointment or promotion. 4113 1 If we read the Constitution to 2 require that the qualifications must attach at 3 the time of taking the examination, then the 4 effect of that is to deny to people who are 5 presently in the Armed Forces but preparing for 6 a post-military service career the opportunity 7 to have the benefit of those additional 8 credits. 9 The amendment would make it clear 10 that all of the qualifications mentioned in the 11 Constitution and in the Civil Service Law must 12 be possessed at the time of actually receiving 13 the appointment which then assists those people 14 in the Armed Forces preparing to leave for a 15 civilian life. It assists them by permitting 16 them to take the examination and to have the 17 benefit of those additional credits. 18 This is particularly useful at a 19 time when we are experiencing military 20 downsizing. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Paterson. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 24 President. 25 If Senator Meier would yield for 4114 1 a question. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Meier, do you yield to a question from Senator 4 Paterson? 5 SENATOR MEIER: Yes, I do. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Senator yields. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 9 Senator. 10 In amending the Constitution, I 11 note that there's a -- well, maybe I'll just ask 12 you. Is there any proposal to make the 13 appropriate amendments to the Civil Service 14 Law? 15 SENATOR MEIER: Mr. President, 16 the -- this would, if it were to be passed, 17 would require amendments to the Civil Service 18 Law. So this would then require, of course, 19 passage by the voters and at that time it would 20 be appropriate for the Legislature to continue 21 -- or to consider, rather, amendments to the 22 Civil Service Law. Such amendments prior to the 23 constitutional amendment being passed would not 24 be constitutional. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4115 1 Paterson. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 3 President. 4 If Senator Meier would yield for 5 another question. 6 SENATOR MEIER: Of course. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Senator continues to yield. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Actually, one 10 final question, Senator. Specifically, an 11 individual who is currently in service to this 12 country is eligible now for what while they are 13 still serving this country prior to leaving to 14 take the Civil Service exam? In other words, at 15 the point that they leave, there would be almost 16 automatically the ability to transfer that 17 service credit right into the Civil Service 18 process. 19 SENATOR MEIER: Well, if you're 20 talking about additional credits in terms of 21 competitive exams for purposes of appointment or 22 promotion, the problem is exactly, Mr. 23 President, that it is unclear at what point the 24 right to receive those credits attaches. It is 25 beyond dispute, as Senator Paterson suggests, 4116 1 that one earns those credits by serving during 2 time of war, by being honorably discharged, by 3 being a citizen or a person otherwise lawfully 4 in the country. That's not under dispute and 5 those rights attach. 6 The question that this amendment 7 seeks to address is at what point do they attach 8 and it is in that sense really clarifying 9 language rather than something that opens new 10 ground. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 12 Senator, and at this juncture, at what point 13 does it attach? 14 SENATOR MEIER: Mr. President, as 15 I believe I've stated a couple of times earlier, 16 it is unclear at this point at what point it 17 attaches and so, therefore, most civil service 18 authorities around the state will err on the 19 side of caution and take the position that it 20 attaches at the point of administering the 21 examination which, as I said, has the effect of 22 foreclosing the ability of people currently 23 serving in the Armed Forces but preparing for 24 discharge, to take the exam and have the credits 25 attach at that point when they go forward. 4117 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Paterson. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 4 Senator Meier, I'm sorry. It 5 must have been my error. What I'm really asking 6 you is, as a result of the passage of this 7 legislation, we've now clarified it to what 8 extent? In other words, at what point does two 9 attach, assuming we pass this constitutional 10 amendment in two consecutive sessions, put it 11 before the voters and we make this law? 12 SENATOR MEIER: Mr. President, 13 should this constitutional amendment pass, the 14 right to receive the credits would attach at the 15 time of -- would attach at the time of -- will 16 attach at the time of receiving appointment or 17 the promotion. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Paterson. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Okay. Thank 21 you, Senator. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 23 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill? 24 (There was no response.) 25 Hearing none, the Secretary will 4118 1 read the last section -- excuse me. This is a 2 resolution. The Secretary will call the roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll.) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6 resolution is adopted. 7 Senator Skelos. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 9 would you lay aside Calendar Number 778 by 10 Senator Hannon for the day. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar 12 Number 778 is laid aside for the day. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: And if you would 14 take up Calendar Number 741 by Senator Stafford. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Secretary will read Calendar Number 741, Senate 17 Print 1342-A, by Senator Stafford. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explanation. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 741, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 1342-A, 21 an act to amend the Family Court Act, in 22 relation to providing for a Family Court judge 23 in Clinton County. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Stafford, an explanation of Calendar Number 741 4119 1 has been requested by Senator Dollinger. 2 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr. 3 President. 4 This legislation would provide 5 for a Family Court judge in Clinton County. The 6 county has grown. It's one of the counties that 7 has increased in population. 8 From firsthand knowledge, I can 9 share with you that OCA is correct that an 10 additional judge is necessary. They have to 11 call in judges from other areas now and I think 12 also this work is very difficult. It's very 13 challenging, and I think the work would be 14 served better by having a person who would be 15 responsible for this work. 16 I reviewed the matter completely 17 before we supported this legislation. As I say, 18 it has the support of the Office of Court 19 Administration and the support of the Clinton 20 County Legislature. 21 Thank you. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 23 President, would the sponsor yield to a couple 24 questions. 25 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 4120 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Stafford, do you yield to Senator Dollinger? 3 The Senator yields. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, this 5 bill seeks to amend Section 131 of the Family 6 Court Act, is that correct? 7 SENATOR STAFFORD: Read it. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. My 9 understanding is that it does. 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: Good. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. Are 12 you familiar with Section 131 of the Family 13 Court Act? 14 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Does that - 16 that includes a listing of all the subdivisions 17 of the Family Court judges that are created in 18 each county, isn't that correct? 19 SENATOR STAFFORD: Right. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. What 21 is the propo... again through you, Mr. 22 President, if the sponsor would continue to 23 yield. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Stafford, do you continue to yield? 4121 1 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yeah. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senator continues to yield. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What's the 5 total cost of the addition of the Family Court 6 judge in Clinton County? Do you know what the 7 cost would be? 8 SENATOR STAFFORD: The cost, of 9 course, would be picked up by the Office of 10 Court Administration. I can get that for you. 11 I will just have to add it up. It will be the 12 salary, the secretary, personnel. I can get 13 that for you. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 15 you, Mr. President, since we're on the floor in 16 this debate. Is it fair to say that that cost 17 is somewhere between -- with all the amenities 18 and the courtroom space and everything is 19 somewhere between 350- and $500,000? 20 SENATOR STAFFORD: I think you're 21 high. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. Again, 23 Mr. President, if the sponsor would yield for a 24 question. My understanding is that this judge 25 ship - 4122 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Stafford, do you continue to yield? 3 (Senator Stafford nods head.) 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 5 Senator continues to yield. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My 7 understanding is that this judgeship in Clinton 8 County -- and you explained the reason why it's 9 needed -- that this judgeship is also included 10 in the list of Family Court and other judgeships 11 that OCA believes are needed in this state this 12 year. 13 SENATOR STAFFORD: I believe I 14 said that. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. Okay. 16 Mr. President, I believe there's 17 an amendment at the desk to Senator Stafford's 18 bill. I would ask that the amendment be waived 19 -- the reading of the amendment be waived and 20 that it be considered now at this time. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 23 an amendment to Senator Stafford's bill at the 24 desk, Senator Dollinger, but, Senator Skelos, 25 why do you rise? 4123 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 2 have had the opportunity to review the 3 amendment. I would ask the Chair to rule that 4 under Rule 6, Section 4(b), this amendment is 5 not germane. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 7 President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Did you 9 wish to be heard on that? 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, I do, 11 Mr. President, and I am not sure the Deputy 12 Majority Leader -- I believe that the discussion 13 about whether it's germane would precede a 14 ruling of the Chair and then the ruling of the 15 Chair would follow. 16 On the ruling of the Chair, Mr. 17 President, I would point out that this amendment 18 amends the exact same section of the Family 19 Court Act of the laws of the state of New York. 20 I would point out that the cost of a Family 21 Court judge, since that's set by statute, is 22 exactly the same in Monroe County as it is in 23 Clinton County. 24 I would point out that the reason 25 that Senator Stafford gave for adding a judge in 4124 1 Clinton County is exactly the same reason, Mr. 2 Chairman, that I would propose an additional 3 Family Court judge is needed in Monroe County, 4 that is, the number of complaints have grown. I 5 have a statement here from the administrative 6 judge of the Family Court in Monroe County which 7 says that their case load was up 11 percent in a 8 single year. He describes this court -- and he 9 provides the same rationale and explanation that 10 Senator Stafford does. He says "This court is 11 already strained to the limits by complex and 12 emotionally charged cases which require 13 considerable time and effort. Unfortunately, 14 given the enormous volume of cases, it is not 15 always possible to give sufficient time to a 16 particular matter. This often results in 17 repeated appearances on the part of the 18 litigants and delayed justice. It must be 19 remembered that the necessity for appearances in 20 Family Court are usually the result of family 21 discord or malfunction and, therefore, have a 22 widespread effect on the family and children of 23 the community." 24 I would point out that that's the 25 exact same justification that Senator Stafford 4125 1 put in and finally, Mr. Chairman, I would point 2 out that consistent with the bill that I 3 submitted which this amendment incorporates, 4 this is also one of the judges that OCA has 5 agreed is on the list of judges that need to be 6 created in New York State. 7 So, Mr. President, with all due 8 respect, I understand Senator Skelos' motion but 9 this couldn't be more germane. This is exactly 10 the same section of law, the exact same 11 rationale, the exact same costs and it amends 12 the exact same section. 13 Finally, Mr. President, I would 14 point out the last time I was able to get an 15 amendment on the floor because it was determined 16 to be germane, it was because it amended the 17 exact same section of the Penal Law as the 18 proposed bill before, that the rationale was 19 exactly the same. It was exactly the same kind 20 of situation. I would ask the President, for 21 purposes of consistency, to remember that 22 decision and to ask the President, the very same 23 Senator in the Chair, that consistency would 24 require that since this is the exact same 25 section of the law, the exact same 4126 1 justification, this amendment ought to be heard 2 by the chamber today. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 4 you, Senator Dollinger, and that's one of the 5 reasons I am here is so that we can provide some 6 consistency to the chamber. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 8 President, nobody appreciates that more than I. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: If you 10 were, Senator Dollinger, to talk today to my 11 children, you would find out that they know that 12 I'm consistent and being consistent, you would 13 also know that the rules, of course, have 14 changed. They were significantly adopted last 15 year in alteration of what the previous rules of 16 this chamber were, which changed the methodology 17 by which we proceed in this chamber. 18 Under the former rules of the 19 house, Senator Dollinger, you would be correct, 20 and the ruling of the Chair would be that the 21 issue -- the amendment is germane but under the 22 current rules of the house, it's the 23 determination of this Chair that the specific 24 and original object of Senator Stafford's bill 25 is to create one position to the Judiciary in 4127 1 Clinton County. It has nothing to do with 2 Monroe County, even though it's contained in the 3 same section of the law. That's where an 4 amendment would have to occur. 5 So I will rule that your 6 amendment is out of order and not germane. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 8 President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Paterson, why do you rise? 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 12 I'm not sure where we are in the discussion. I 13 would like to appeal the ruling of the Chair. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 15 recognizes you, Senator Paterson, on an appeal 16 of the ruling of the Chair. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. 19 The germaneness of a topic is not 20 one that involves geography. It involves 21 thought. It involves really what the thrust of 22 the legislation addresses and, in this 23 particular case, there is a need for a Family 24 Court judge in Clinton County and there's 25 certainly no disputing that. 4128 1 There's also a need, according to 2 the Office of Court Administration for a long 3 period of time -- it's on the 14 issues that 4 they feel must be addressed immediately. It's 5 certainly one of them -- for a Family Court 6 judge to be implanted in Monroe County and both 7 of these counties are important. In fact, 8 Monroe and Clinton were both Presidents. In 9 fact, Monroe came before Clinton. 10 So what we are trying to suggest 11 here, Mr. President, is that the citizens of 12 these different counties have the same needs. 13 So when Senator Dollinger, who otherwise might 14 go through a committee process and not see his 15 bill out here because I don't see any Dollinger 16 bills on this current calendar, nor do I see any 17 of my own -- not to in any way diminish Senator 18 Dollinger, but he seems to be suffering from the 19 same affliction that I am -- the point really is 20 that while we may have these somewhat 21 intemperate differences here in Albany, that the 22 residents of these different neighborhoods in 23 our state, of which we're all one people that 24 live in New York, are having the similar problem 25 and, therefore, it is the similarity of 4129 1 circumstance, not the contrasting geography, 2 which I think would be the preferred issue and, 3 Mr. Chairman -- Mr. President, if you would 4 review the issue, I would feel that you should 5 favor the value of need which is really what 6 government's credo is, over the delineation of 7 lines of demarcation that separate counties. 8 With that, Mr. President, that 9 concludes my appeal. I'm sure you not only 10 found it interesting but persuasive, and if you 11 would be so kind as to change your ruling, you 12 would spare us all from hearing Senator 13 Dollinger's appeal. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Nozzolio, did you wish to be heard on the appeal 16 of the ruling of the Chair? 17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr. 18 President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Nozzolio. 21 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President, 22 I wish to indicate that this measure is not only 23 not germane under the rules of this house, it is 24 also not appropriately connected to a measure 25 that is brought forth by a sponsor of the main 4130 1 bill who has done his homework. 2 Senator Stafford has 3 appropriately taken steps in presenting this 4 bill before us that appropriately recognizes not 5 some oblique Office of Court Administration but 6 the county -- the county government and elected 7 leaders locally who are entrusted with bringing 8 these types of measures before their appropriate 9 state representatives. 10 Senator Dollinger, the author of 11 the amendment, whatever his intentions, has 12 neither checked with the local legislature or 13 the local county executive of Monroe. The 14 county legislature has no support or 15 documentation for this amendment, and I want to 16 point out to you, Mr. President, and to my 17 colleagues, that neither has the county 18 executive or county legislature of Monroe 19 supported this amendment. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Why do 22 you rise? 23 SENATOR GOLD: Would the 24 gentleman yield to a question? 25 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I have, Mr. 4131 1 President, no desire to yield to Senator Gold on 2 this matter. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Senator refuses to yield, Senator Gold. 5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator 6 Dollinger has not done his homework, purely and 7 simply, and has tried to use the parliamentary 8 machinations to present a measure before us - 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: -- that has no 11 legitimacy presented. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: -- under - 14 Mr. President, if I may continue my comments. I 15 wish not to yield. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse me 17 just a minute. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 19 I realize - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator, 21 why do you rise? 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: I realize 23 Senator Nozzolio is talking very loudly and you 24 obviously had trouble in hearing me, but I did 25 seek the floor on a point of order, Mr. 4132 1 President. I wanted to know whether we are now 2 debating the merits of Senator Dollinger's 3 amendment or we're debating the issue of a 4 ruling of the Chair. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We're 6 debating the issue of the ruling of the Chair at 7 this moment. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: May I suggest 9 then, Senator - 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- I mean, Mr. 12 President, that Senator Nozzolio is out of order 13 since he's clearly addressing the merits of 14 Senator Dollinger's amendment. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Well, 16 Senator Leichter, I was having a hard time 17 trying to gauge in or cue in your conversation 18 because you were interpreting him and he wasn't 19 able to complete his thoughts. So I wasn't sure 20 whether he was leading to the appeal of the 21 ruling of the Chair or what. I would so prefer 22 to let Senator Nozzolio at least complete his 23 thought, until I find if, in fact, you have 24 objections not relevant, you can raise the issue 25 then. 4133 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: But, Mr. 2 President, I'm delighted that Senator Nozzolio 3 had a thought but I don't think that's really 4 the issue. I believe under our rules if a 5 member gets up, he is entitled or she is 6 entitled to be recognized. I don't think that 7 we have to wait until some member finishes his 8 or her thought. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Leichter. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Unless I'm 12 wrong on that. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Leichter, I think that's up to the discretion of 15 the Chair as to when to intercede and recognize 16 a person or not and certainly without some sort 17 of orchestration and some organization and some 18 control, there would be chaos, which it appears 19 by your jumping up on the heels of Senator Gold 20 without even Senator Nozzolio having a chance to 21 think, that that may be the purpose behind your 22 standing. 23 So the Chair now gives the floor 24 back to Senator Nozzolio and I would ask you for 25 the common sense and decency of maintaining some 4134 1 kind of control of this chamber that you would 2 just sit down and wait your turn, sir. 3 Senator Nozzolio. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Have you ruled 5 on my point of order, Mr. President? Excuse me, 6 Mr. President. I suggested that Senator 7 Nozzolio -- and I certainly don't want to 8 prevent him from thinking as you suggest but, 9 Mr. President, I made a point of order 10 suggesting that Senator Nozzolio was out of 11 order based on your ruling that we're not 12 discussing the merits of Senator Dollinger's - 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Your 14 point is not well taken, Senator. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Not well 16 taken. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Not well 18 taken. 19 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 20 President. 21 If I may conclude. This measure 22 -- this amendment is not germane for the 23 reasons I suggested and I wish that this house, 24 when Senator Dollinger characterizes this 25 amendment as being requested from appropriate 4135 1 representatives in Monroe, that the record is 2 set straight, that the legislature has not 3 spoken from the county of Monroe on this issue, 4 nor has the county executive. 5 Thank you, Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 7 recognizes Senator Dollinger. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would Senator 9 Nozzolio yield to a question? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Nozzolio, do you yield to a question from 12 Senator Dollinger? 13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: From the 14 sponsor, yes, Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Senator yields. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is it your 18 position, Senator -- through you, Mr. 19 President. Is it your position, Senator 20 Nozzolio, that in order to create a judgeship, 21 that we are going to pay for entirely with our 22 tax dollars, that we need a local home rule 23 message from a county executive and a county 24 legislature in which that county occurs? Is 25 that your opinion? Is that the rule of this 4136 1 house, as you understand it? 2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: As I 3 understand it, Senator Dollinger, the cost of 4 the judgeship may be borne totally by the New 5 York State taxpayers. However, there are many 6 other costs entailed in running a Family Court 7 judge, additional court attendants, additional 8 office space, additional other support that's 9 necessary for that judge and that support is 10 paid for by the taxpayers of Monroe, just as the 11 bill before us, that additional support would be 12 paid for by the appropriate counties impacted by 13 Senator Stafford's bill. The county legislature 14 needs to address -- if we're talking about 15 judicial adds, Senator, I would think that at 16 the very least you should follow the proper 17 procedure of getting the support of the county 18 legislature because they are going to have to 19 bear additional costs as a result of this 20 measure -- of your amendment. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just so I 22 understand, Mr. President, if Senator Nozzolio 23 would yield to another question. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Nozzolio, do you yield to another question? The 4137 1 Senator yields. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Do you 3 understand the rules of this house to require a 4 home rule message before we create this 5 judgeship? 6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I didn't 7 suggest, Senator, that a home rule message was 8 necessary. That -- I never said that. I only 9 said Senator Stafford did his homework, that I 10 wish that you, in presenting this amendment, 11 would also do your homework. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Let me just 13 ask one final question, Mr. President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Nozzolio, do you continue to yield? 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator 17 Nozzolio, do you support the - 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Dollinger -- Senator Dollinger. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Excuse me. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Just let 22 me find out if the Senator continues to yield 23 first. 24 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr. 25 President. 4138 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Senator yields. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator 4 Nozzolio, in your position as a member of the 5 state Senate, do you support the creation of a 6 sixth judge in the Family Court in Monroe 7 County? Do you do it? 8 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Not at this 9 time, Senator. That is an issue - 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: No final 11 questions, Mr. President. 12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: If I may 13 finish my answer, Senator. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's fine. 15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, I am 16 waiting for appropriate guidance from the county 17 of Monroe, from the duly elected representatives 18 at the county legislative level, as well as the 19 county executive, to decide the appropriateness 20 of this issue and to bring it before us as is, I 21 believe, the proper procedure. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the issue 23 of germaneness, Mr. President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Dollinger. 4139 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I expressed 2 my concern about the germaneness issue. I 3 appreciate the update. I sometimes wish, I 4 guess, that consistent with Senator Paterson's 5 argument, maybe we could add a Family Court 6 judge in Jefferson and Madison County and we 7 would cover all the Presidents and we could do 8 it that way but, frankly, your Honor, I reject 9 the notion that we haven't done our homework on 10 this motion. 11 I filed this amendment when I 12 became aware of Senator Stafford putting the 13 amendment in for Clinton County. His 14 justification for Clinton County is exactly the 15 same justification for Monroe County. It's been 16 on the table and talked about in Monroe County 17 for the better part of the decade. One reason 18 why it isn't done is because this chamber hasn't 19 been willing to do it. Here is the chance for 20 this chamber to stand up and say let's overrule 21 the decision of the Chairman -- of the President 22 of the issue of germaneness. Let's put the 23 amendment before and let's analyze the 24 objectives that this amendment seeks to achieve 25 and why this would be a good thing for the 4140 1 people of the state of New York. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Dollinger. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My 5 understanding is - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse me 7 just a minute. 8 Senator Nozzolio, why do you 9 rise? 10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President, 11 would Senator Dollinger yield? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Dollinger, do you yield to a question from 14 Senator Nozzolio? 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I would be 16 glad to yield, Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 Senator yields. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm willing 20 to yield most all of the time. 21 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr. 22 President. 23 Senator, do you have in your 24 records a resolution passed by the Monroe County 25 Legislature requesting this judgeship? 4141 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I don't, but 2 I have the authority, the same authority that 3 Senator Stafford does, that OCA believes that 4 this job is necessary. This job has been talked 5 about in the Family Court judges. I've got a 6 letter from every single member of the Family 7 Court suggesting that this job is necessary. I 8 think that I was given the responsibility by the 9 people that live in my district to appropriate 10 state monies where they are needed to pay for 11 judicial appointments. This is one. 12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I agree with 14 Senator Stafford. This is entirely appropriate 15 that we create one in Clinton County. This is 16 my vehicle to create one in Monroe County, part 17 of which I know, Senator Nozzolio, you 18 represent. So that the people in Webster, just 19 like the people in Brighton and Greece, can get 20 the same kind of Family Court attention that 21 they need. That's what this amendment is all 22 about. We have the authority to do it. We 23 don't need a family -- we don't need a home rule 24 message from the county of Monroe in order to do 25 it. We can do it ourselves. That's what the 4142 1 people elected us to do, to find out what the 2 need was, to address the need and to spend the 3 peoples' money if -- in our judgment which 4 should be spent there. We've got that 5 opportunity now. Overrule the Chair and we'll 6 have a debate about it. It's that simple. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Nozzolio, why do you rise? 9 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Will Senator 10 Dollinger continue to yield? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Dollinger, do you yield? 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I will, Mr. 14 President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Senator yields. 17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, the 18 sum and substance of your amendment, as I see 19 it, does not reimburse the county of Monroe for 20 any additional costs that may be incurred as a 21 result of the creation of this judgeship. 22 Senator, I think it's in error 23 for you to say that the state is picking up the 24 total cost to Monroe County to afford this new 25 additional Family Court judgeship as sponsored 4143 1 by your amendment. 2 My question to you is how can 3 your amendment -- how can you say that your 4 amendment picks up the total cost of this 5 judgeship when it, in fact, does not? 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 7 President, through you, to respond. All of the 8 personnel that would be hired with the Family 9 Court judge are all paid for by the state of New 10 York. They're employees of the Office of Court 11 Administration. The judge is paid. His 12 secretary is paid by us. The court personnel 13 are all paid by us. They're all state 14 employees. They're not county employees. The 15 only cost to the county -- the only possible 16 cost to the county would be a facility's cost to 17 find a courtroom. They've got a building 18 there. They're building a new Family Court 19 right next door. They're building a courtroom 20 in anticipation of another judge and all we have 21 to do is create the judgeship and we'll fill it 22 and they've got the courtroom ready to go. 23 The county, in its planning, my 24 understanding is, has already anticipated that 25 there will some day be a sixth Family Court 4144 1 judge. They've already built the cost in. All 2 we have to agree to do -- and this is where 3 Senator Stafford -- our costs may be slightly 4 higher in Monroe County but when we cost out 5 this, the total cost to the state of New York 6 for benefits, for salaries, for staff is about 7 $425,000 a year. 8 My request is if we overrule the 9 ruling of the Chair in this instance, we can 10 allocate $425,000 for the people of Clinton 11 County who need a Family Court judge and we can 12 take $425,000 for the people of Monroe County 13 who have been waiting for a decade to get a 14 Family Court judge. 15 I know Senator Lack has been 16 dealing with this issue. He knows it's on the 17 OCA list. Here's our chance to create it. 18 Let's stop the politics and let's just get down 19 to business. This has been talked about in 20 Monroe County for a decade. This is the only 21 tool that I can find to bring it to the floor. 22 I can't get it out of committee. I understand 23 why I can't. It's my only opportunity to put it 24 on the floor. 25 The Chairman now rules it out of 4145 1 order even though under my view of the 2 definition of "germaneness", there is nothing 3 that is germane any more unless I pick apart the 4 specific language of this amendment. 5 I regret those are our rules, Mr. 6 Chairman, but I've got to play by them. I'm 7 simply playing by your rules. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Stafford, why do you rise? 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President, 11 to discuss your ruling. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Stafford, on the appeal of the ruling of the 14 Chair. 15 SENATOR STAFFORD: I think a 16 great deal of you, Senator Dollinger. I 17 mentioned the other day we're friends. We're 18 going to remain friends. I don't think I would 19 be doing my job, though, if I didn't share this 20 with you today. 21 Everybody does their job 22 differently here. I compliment you for 23 whatever, but I also want to share this with 24 you. I think it's understood and I think we all 25 realize and whether it's tradition or whatever, 4146 1 I think what Senator Nozzolio, the point he 2 raised -- and I think I should say this, that 3 obviously the local government should pass a 4 resolution supporting this. I don't want to 5 interrupt you. Go ahead. Finish and then I'll 6 finish speaking. 7 I think that to introduce an 8 amendment to a bill that has been requested by 9 the county -- I had various words I was going to 10 use that I'm not because I think it would be 11 better not to, but I think, yes, let's take the 12 politics out of it. I can argue that it is not 13 being taken out of it by the way you are doing, 14 but I would be less than candid, Mr. President, 15 if I didn't say that no matter what we do in 16 this chamber, we have to have some sensitivity 17 and this goes to exactly what you're going to be 18 ruling on and we all know, as Senator Skelos so 19 -- pointed out so well, that this piece of 20 legislation that's been requested by the local 21 government that Senator Nozzolio has pointed 22 out, is something -- yes, it is on the OCA list 23 but together with the OCA, we always do look to 24 the local governments. 25 I could argue, Mr. President, 4147 1 that this is something that is less than what 2 should be done in this house and the reason I'm 3 not going to say any more is because I don't 4 think Senator Dollinger intends it to be taken 5 the way it can be taken when you're in my 6 position here, but I'd leave it at that, Mr. 7 President, that we support your ruling and I 8 think we should get on with it. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Paterson. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 12 when we opened session today, there were a 13 number of amendments offered up from the floor 14 to pieces of legislation and having taken a look 15 at some of those amendments, what some of those 16 amendments did was actually to expand the 17 jurisdiction of the legislation from one area to 18 another. That's exactly what Senator Dollinger 19 did later on. 20 Now, there's no prerequisite that 21 Senator Dollinger get any home rule message or 22 home rule approval from his particular area 23 since by the nature of his representation, he's 24 entitled to introduce the legislation. So since 25 you were kind enough and gracious enough to 4148 1 listen to an appeal of a ruling that you already 2 made, obviously you were inviting those of us 3 who are members of the Senate to give 4 information that would perhaps persuade you that 5 your original ruling might be better served by 6 another ruling. 7 Senator Nozzolio, with all due 8 respect, never debated the issue of 9 germaneness. He debated the amendment. So if 10 all else is lost, we've debated the amendment 11 here today. He never discussed one issue that 12 related to germaneness. He just didn't like the 13 bill, which he would be invited to vote against 14 the amendment. 15 Senator Stafford's point was more 16 relative to the issue of germaneness but where I 17 respectfully disagree with Senator Stafford, who 18 has been here for a much longer time and has a 19 much greater understanding of this chamber and 20 its workings than I, is just my assertion that 21 the issue of germaneness is not one that relates 22 to many of the legislative issues that we debate 23 every day. 24 If Senator Dollinger got up and 25 offered an amendment to this legislation that 4149 1 called for -- let me think of something -- like 2 a ban of assault weapons or something, if he did 3 that, that would not be germane under the new 4 rules of -- that we adopted in 1995 through 5 Majority Leader Senator Bruno, but since what 6 the Senator was introducing was an amendment to 7 a piece of legislation which calls for the exact 8 same action and is buttressed by the same type 9 of research, it was, in my opinion, within the 10 threshold of what would be considered 11 germaneness and exactly the same thing that the 12 Chair accepted earlier in this session when it 13 accepted a variety of amendments from 14 legislators that wanted to expand the 15 jurisdiction of the legislation. 16 So with all due respect, Mr. 17 President, I would ask you to reconsider your 18 previous ruling. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Does 20 Senator Dollinger wish to be heard further? 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the issue 22 of germaneness, Mr. President. I appreciate the 23 words of Senator Stafford in his restraint. He 24 has a long tenure in this chamber and one that I 25 respect but, quite frankly, I don't write the 4150 1 rules. In fact, I think every year I vote 2 against the rules when we do the rules and all I 3 can do, Senator, as a member of the Minority - 4 my bills don't come out of the committee. I've 5 carried the bill for a sixth Family Court 6 judge. I swear if I changed my party 7 affiliation, there would probably be a Family 8 Court judge in 20 minutes in Monroe County. I 9 won't change my party registration to do that. 10 I don't think that's any way to do the business 11 of government. 12 So I sit here on the Minority 13 side. I don't write the rules. I don't 14 interpret the rules. I don't have the votes to 15 overturn the interpretation of the rules but 16 when I look at a rule like germaneness and I 17 look at the needs of my community as the people 18 elected me to determine them, I try to do 19 whatever I can. 20 I apologize, Senator Stafford, if 21 that seems like too aggressive. I apologize if 22 that seems like it's not in the tradition of 23 this house but, unfortunately, not one of my 60 24 colleagues votes for me. 300,000 people do. 25 They sent me here to do a job and sometimes 4151 1 doing that job means that I'm going to disagree 2 sharply with you, Senator Stafford. I may 3 disagree sharply with Senator Nozzolio. I may 4 disagree sharply with anyone, but I look at that 5 as my job in coming here. 6 I'm proud to be here. I'm proud 7 to stand up and ask that this ruling of the 8 Chair be overturned because I believe that a 9 Family Court judge in Monroe County is germane 10 to the creation of a Family Court judge in 11 Clinton County and more importantly, it's the 12 right thing to do for the people in both 13 counties. That's what the business of 14 government ought to be about. It shouldn't be 15 about silly parliamentary rules. I understand 16 why they're necessary, why a chamber can't run 17 without rules but sometimes we've got to sweep 18 away all the rules to do the right thing. 19 That's all I'm trying to do. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 question is on the appeal of the ruling of the 22 Chair. A vote in the affirmative is a vote to 23 overturn the ruling of the Chair as to 24 germaneness. A vote in the negative is a vote 25 to sustain the ruling of the Chair. 4152 1 The Secretary will call the 2 roll. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Party vote in 4 the negative. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Slow roll 6 call. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are there 8 five Senators in the chamber requesting a slow 9 roll call? I see five standing. 10 The Secretary will call the roll 11 slowly. Ring the bells. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 13 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Alesi. 15 SENATOR ALESI: No. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Breslin. 17 SENATOR BRESLIN: Yes. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: No. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor. 21 (There was no audible response.) 22 THE SECRETARY: Aye. 23 Senator Cook. 24 (There was no response.) 25 Senator DeFrancisco. 4153 1 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: No. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator 3 Dollinger. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley. 6 SENATOR FARLEY: No. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gentile. 8 SENATOR GENTILE: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Gold to explain his vote in two minutes. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 14 President. 15 Does the "Thank you, Mr. 16 President" come off the two minutes? Yeah. 17 Mr. President, I think that it's 18 unfortunate that we have these situations, 19 except I find something interesting. 20 For years we've made points on 21 this floor and I read the newspapers and it 22 seems to be above the heads of most people that 23 write for the papers except that we maybe are 24 getting a new crop because all of -- I didn't 25 say "crock". I said "crop" -- because all of a 4154 1 sudden I start to see some of this creeping into 2 the newspapers. Now, I'm telling my very 3 distinguished Republican colleagues, the press 4 is starting to understand. 5 Now, Senator Nozzolio spoke about 6 procedures but what I get out of it is that 7 Senator Nozzolio believes that there is not the 8 need for a Family Court judge in Monroe County. 9 Now, he may or may not be right. He has the 10 right to have that opinion and I respect it, but 11 the press is starting to understand that the 12 procedural business is just - 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Excuse me, 14 Senator Gold. Could we have some order, please. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Your 16 point is very well taken, Senator Skelos. 17 SENATOR GOLD: This isn't out of 18 my two minutes. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You're on 20 pause, today's world. Can we take the 21 conversations out of the chamber. 22 Senator Larkin, Senator Cook, 23 Senator Dollinger, shhh! Senator Nozzolio. Just 24 please take your chairs. Senator Lack. 25 Senator Gold. 4155 1 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You have 3 three seconds left. 4 SENATOR GOLD: How much? So, Mr. 5 President -- as I was saying, Mr. President, 6 everything is procedure. Procedure gets things 7 to the floor. Procedures are how we operate. 8 So offering an amendment is as legitimate as 9 anything else. If Senator Nozzolio is opposed 10 to the judgeship, I respect that. I think his 11 constituents will give that whatever value it 12 is. 13 I believe that since we are 14 dealing in this fantasy land -- because I will 15 remind you that I vote against judgeships unless 16 they come through the Office of Court 17 Administration and unless they are funded 18 because I think it is a fraud on the public if 19 we put these things out there and they're only 20 one-house situations, but I will support the 21 fact that the Chair, while being a much better 22 putter than I am and much better out of sand 23 traps than I am, is wrong on this issue. 24 So on the issue before us, I will 25 vote yes. 4156 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Gold will be recorded in the affirmative. 3 Continue to call the slow roll call. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gonzalez. 5 (There was no response.) 6 Senator Goodman. 7 SENATOR GOODMAN: No. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon. 9 SENATOR HANNON: No. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann, 11 excused. 12 Senator Holland. 13 SENATOR HOLLAND: No. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson. 15 SENATOR JOHNSON: No. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger. 17 (There was no response.) 18 Senator Kuhl. 19 SENATOR KUHL: No. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lachman. 21 SENATOR LACHMAN: Yes. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack. 23 SENATOR LACK: No. 24 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin. 25 SENATOR LARKIN: No. 4157 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle. 2 SENATOR LAVALLE: No. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell. 4 SENATOR LEIBELL: No. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leichter. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 7 to explain my vote. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Leichter, to explain his vote. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: It's important 11 that issues affecting people in this state, 12 counties, have an opportunity to come to this 13 floor. You bottle up the bills and now you 14 interpret the rules in such a twisted manner 15 that you make it impossible to bring matters 16 that are important to this state to the floor. 17 Mr. President, you would be the 18 last person I would accuse of partisanship, but 19 I question and I have to ask you, that when you 20 take that chair, there's got to be a certain 21 impartiality, and I certainly hope that nothing 22 will be done that whoever is up there, whether 23 it's the Lieutenant Governor or somebody who 24 takes her place, that debases the chair by 25 making blatantly partisan rulings. 4158 1 Take a look at the rules. The 2 rules say that "no amendments shall be allowed 3 to any bill which is not germane to the original 4 object or purpose." What could be more germane 5 than in the bill creating a judgeship in one 6 county to have an amendment which creates a 7 judgeship in another? I'm afraid what we're 8 seeing here -- and I want to say, you know, 9 there's a certain jocular quality to this and we 10 are all old friends, but there are some 11 important principles and the important principle 12 is democracy, which I realize is of a very 13 scarce quality in this house, but I think to 14 shut off debate in this fashion -- and, Mr. 15 President, it almost seems that maybe you're 16 following a precedent that any Dollinger 17 amendment is not germane. I would ask you to 18 give a more considerate attention to the rules 19 of this house than you have. 20 I vote yes. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Leichter will be recorded in the affirmative. 23 Continue to call the slow roll 24 call. 25 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy. 4159 1 SENATOR LEVY: No. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous. 3 SENATOR LIBOUS: No. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese. 5 (There was no response.) 6 Senator Marcellino. 7 (There was no response.) 8 Senator Marchi. 9 SENATOR MARCHI: No. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator 11 Markowitz. 12 (Affirmative indication) 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz. 14 (There was no response.) 15 Senator Meier. 16 SENATOR MEIER: No. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez. 18 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator 20 Montgomery. 21 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula. 23 SENATOR NANULA: Yes. 24 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nozzolio. 25 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: No. 4160 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato. 2 SENATOR ONORATO: Yes. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator 4 Oppenheimer. 5 (There was no response.) 6 Senator Padavan. 7 (There was no response.) 8 Senator Paterson. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present. 11 SENATOR PRESENT: No. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 13 SENATOR RATH: No. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rosado. 15 (There was no response.) 16 Senator Saland. 17 (There was no response.) 18 Senator Sampson. 19 (There was no response.) 20 Senator Santiago. 21 SENATOR SANTIAGO: Yes. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seabrook. 23 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yes. 24 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward. 25 SENATOR SEWARD: No. 4161 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: No. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 4 SENATOR SMITH: Yes. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 6 SENATOR SPANO: No. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Stachowski. 9 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Yes. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford. 11 SENATOR STAFFORD: No. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stavisky. 13 SENATOR STAVISKY: Aye. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo. 15 SENATOR TRUNZO: No. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully. 17 SENATOR TULLY: Nope. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella. 19 (There was no response.) 20 Senator Volker. 21 SENATOR VOLKER: No. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon. 23 (There was no audible response.) 24 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright. 25 SENATOR WRIGHT: No. 4162 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 2 absentees. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook. 4 SENATOR COOK: No. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gonzalez. 6 (There was no response.) 7 Senator Kruger. 8 (There was no response.) 9 Senator Maltese. 10 (There was no response.) 11 Senator Marcellino. 12 SENATOR MARCELLINO: No. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gonzalez. 14 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Yes. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz. 16 (There was no response.) 17 Senator Oppenheimer. 18 (There was no response.) 19 Senator Padavan. 20 (There was no response.) 21 Senator Rosado. 22 SENATOR ROSADO: Yes. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 24 SENATOR SALAND: No. 25 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sampson. 4163 1 (There was no response.) 2 Senator Velella. 3 (There was no response.) 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce 5 the results. 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 22, nays 31. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 appeal of the ruling of the Chair is lost and 9 the ruling of the Chair is sustained. 10 SENATOR STAFFORD: Last section, 11 please. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 Secretary will read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes - 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 20 President, to explain my vote. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Dollinger, to explain his vote. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 24 President, my temptation would be to vote no on 25 this as a form of protest, but I'm not going to 4164 1 do that because I believe that Senator Stafford 2 has established a case for the creation of a 3 judgeship in Clinton County. 4 What I'm disappointed at is that 5 having established the same case for Monroe 6 County, the people that I represent won't get 7 one as a result of the shenanigans in today's 8 debate. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Dollinger will be recorded in the affirmative. 11 Announce the results. 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59, nays 1, 13 Senator Gold recorded in the negative. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 15 is passed. 16 The Secretary will continue to 17 call the regular order of the controversial 18 calendar. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 796, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 3939, an 21 act to establish a public library district to be 22 known as Blodgett Memorial Library. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation, 24 please. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4165 1 Saland, an explanation of Calendar Number 796, 2 Senate Print 3939, has been requested. 3 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 4 President. 5 Mr. President, this is a bill 6 which has been requested by the village of 7 Fishkill and the town of Fishkill which would 8 permit the creation of the Blodgett Memorial 9 Library which would be a public library -- I'm 10 sorry -- the Blodgett Memorial Library District 11 would be a library as distinguished - 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 13 me, Senator Saland. It's getting awful noisy 14 again, awful noisy. 15 Senator Gold, take the 16 conversations outside, please. The staff, take 17 their places. 18 Senator Saland, pardon the 19 interruption but I think it's now a little 20 quieter so they can hear the explanation. 21 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 22 President. 23 Again, what this bill would do 24 would be permit these two municipalities to 25 create this public library district which would 4166 1 be defined by the boundaries of the two 2 municipalities exclusive of the city of Beacon 3 School District. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 5 Secretary will read the last section -- excuse 6 me. Senator Paterson. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 8 I'm sorry. I'm still a little hurt over that 9 last ruling of the Chair, but - 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You'll 11 get over it, Senator. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. I 13 always do. 14 If Senator Saland would yield for 15 a question. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Saland, do you yield to a question? 18 SENATOR SALAND: I certainly 19 would. He sounds as if he's in pain and anguish 20 and I wouldn't want to be responsible for 21 somehow or other expanding that hurt. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 Senator yields. 24 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, I just 25 have one question, Senator, and it pertains to 4167 1 whether or not there would be any additional tax 2 to the local counties as a result of passage of 3 this legislation. 4 SENATOR SALAND: I don't believe 5 there will be any additional tax to the county. 6 What this would enable to occur would be the 7 creation of a district which would have the 8 authority to raise its funds by way of a tax as 9 would any other improvement district. I would 10 not imagine there would be any great difference 11 in its budget or the types of dollars that would 12 be raised. 13 However, the people in the 14 district would first have to agree that this 15 would be appropriate to create the district and 16 then would have the ability to vote on those 17 budgets. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Paterson. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 21 if Senator Stafford would continue -- I'm sorry 22 -- if Senator Saland would continue to yield. 23 Senator, in the event there is 24 not a tax, could it still be said that there 25 would be an increase in the budget that would be 4168 1 required to execute this? 2 SENATOR SALAND: I could not say 3 that with certainty, although it certainly is a 4 possibility. Right now the library is receiving 5 funds by budget lines from each of the 6 municipalities, both the village and the town 7 and in addition raises monies privately. I'm 8 assuming it will continue to raise monies 9 privately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Paterson. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 13 President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Saland, do you continue to yield? 16 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 17 President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Paterson, any further questions? 20 (There was no response.) 21 Hearing none, the Secretary will 22 read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section - 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Dollinger. 4169 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 2 President, just -- I apologize. I didn't listen 3 to Senator Paterson, but if Senator Saland would 4 just yield to one question. Is there a home 5 rule message on this bill? 6 SENATOR SALAND: This bill does 7 not require a home rule message. I have 8 resolutions passed -- copies of resolutions 9 passed by each of the two municipalities 10 endorsing and supporting this bill by bill 11 number. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Secretary will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 9. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll.) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 848, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 4852, an act 25 to amend the State Administrative Procedure Act, 4170 1 in relation to public hearings on proposed 2 rules. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 4 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Lay it 5 aside temporarily, please. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 7 bill aside. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 860, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 4307, an 10 act to amend the Penal Law and the Criminal 11 Procedure Law, in relation to criminal 12 diversion. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Volker, an explanation of Calendar Number 860 16 has been requested. 17 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 18 this is a bill that was sent to us by the 19 Attorney General's office that is a second of a 20 bill -- we did a bill last week that related to 21 possession of stolen prescription medications. 22 What this bill involves is what they call a 23 criminal diversion. It's actually the sale of 24 prescription medication or medication devices 25 and what the prime part of the bill says is that 4171 1 the value for purposes of criminal conduct is 2 the value -- the actual value, street value of 3 the prescription rather than the discounted 4 value. 5 In other words, the -- when this 6 -- these prescriptions are stolen, they're 7 usually stolen in bulk and sold off in pieces. 8 For instance, the value of the prescription may 9 be $100 and the person who is -- has stolen the 10 property and is selling it off sells it for $20 11 because it's a discounted value. The result of 12 that is that the degree of larceny that's 13 involved or the degree of criminal conduct 14 that's involved is lessened by the fact that it 15 is sold for a lesser value, street value than 16 the actual value that it was when it was -- when 17 it was stolen. 18 The second part of the bill 19 involves the specific authorization for the 20 Attorney General to have enforcement 21 jurisdiction and one of the reasons for this - 22 this bill really is primarily involved in the 23 issue of Medicaid fraud and the prosecution of 24 Medicaid fraud for illegal transactions 25 involving medical prescriptions and devices. 4172 1 Thirdly -- and I suppose this is 2 the area that has gotten some notice -- this 3 would add another section to the RICO section 4 because, whether we realize it or not, in the 5 area of Medicaid fraud, the major criminal 6 elements have moved into Medicaid fraud and 7 there are millions and millions of dollars in 8 prescriptions and prescription devices being 9 sold out on the street and on the market that 10 are costing the state of New York and various 11 individuals huge amounts of money. So this 12 would include this sort of action as criminal 13 action that would be part of the so-called 14 enterprise criminal acts or RICO acts under 15 Article 700 of the Penal Law. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Paterson. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 19 President. 20 If Senator Volker would yield. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Does 22 Senator Volker yield? 23 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 25 Senator yields. 4173 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, the 2 companies that distribute a lot of these 3 prescription medications report that they are 4 losing millions of dollars as a result of this 5 theft and resale. 6 My question is, in some ways, are 7 not we as the state subsidizing the effort that 8 the companies should be making themselves in 9 fighting what is often a careless handling of 10 these medications that allows them to be 11 pilfered in the first place? Isn't it in many 12 ways allowing them to relax the standards and in 13 many ways diminish the resources that they are 14 putting forth in order to try to fight it and if 15 we were going to pass this legislation, would it 16 not be better served if we were to insist that 17 the drug companies and the companies that market 18 these products were a lot more strenuous in 19 their stand against the criminal element and in 20 many ways exacted more protections against 21 theft? 22 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, I think 23 you're absolutely right, although I don't 24 exactly see where this legislation would do 25 that. The companies stand at the present time 4174 1 to lose an enormous amount of money in many 2 cases, and I don't think making the penalty for 3 sale of these prescriptions and these devices, I 4 don't see where that would make the companies 5 any less diligent in attempting to make sure 6 that this sort of activity doesn't happen 7 because they're still liable in a number of 8 cases for the losses that occur when these 9 prescriptions and these prescription devices are 10 stolen or somehow fall into the hands of people 11 who sell them. 12 It just seems to me that this 13 would not at all lessen their desire to continue 14 to attempt to save themselves enormous amounts 15 of money because although the state, in some 16 cases, if these -- if this material has been 17 turned over to the state or to the individuals 18 that are involved, obviously the state could be 19 held liable but in some cases the company itself 20 could be held liable if it is previous to 21 getting to the ultimate people who are to sell 22 it on the open market. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Paterson. 25 SENATOR PATERSON: The point is 4175 1 well taken, Senator Volker, if you would 2 continue to yield. 3 That brings me to the second part 4 of my question. There's obviously an expansion 5 in the powers vested in the Attorney General's 6 office, I guess through Article 700 of the 7 Criminal Procedure Law and at that, what we're 8 really doing, I would imagine, is the Attorney 9 General is making the argument that there's a 10 compelling state interest vis-a-vis the theft 11 and resale of these types of medications and 12 their danger to the public and so the Attorney 13 General, in a kind of broad way, probably 14 through -- including sections of the -- 63 of 15 the Executive Law, would come in at this point 16 and perhaps supervise these types of 17 prosecutions. 18 Number one, do you see this as a 19 power grab on the part of the Attorney General's 20 office and then suddenly, does this also, the 21 fact that this is included in the legislation, 22 in many ways relieve the drug company of their 23 responsibility in allowing for the continually 24 larger numbers of medications to fall into the 25 wrong hands? 4176 1 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator Calandra 2 once said "No. No. Yes. Yes. No. No." 3 Anyways, let me just say, first of all, that the 4 Attorney General is already involved in this 5 area because a great deal of the problems that 6 are involved here are Medicaid fraud problems 7 and one of the difficulties is that local 8 prosecutors, although they are already involved 9 in prosecuting Medicaid fraud and are very 10 concerned about it because there are millions of 11 dollars in counties, state and in local money 12 that is involved, the trouble that many of the 13 prosecutors have is sometimes difficult to 14 determine the difference between Medicaid 15 prescriptions that are sold and other 16 prescriptions that are sold and the Attorney 17 General's office has the competency in their 18 prosecutorial operation to be able to determine 19 where they came from and who was involved and 20 has the expertise to do that. 21 I think it's one of the reasons 22 why the local prosecutors are more than happy in 23 this area, not always in other areas, to have 24 the Attorney General's office doing many of 25 these prosecutions because some of them are 4177 1 across county lines and all the rest of the type 2 things and this seems to be a perfect area for 3 the Attorney General to get even more greater 4 ability to do so. 5 As far as a power grab is 6 concerned, there's a lot of money involved in 7 the conversion of prescriptions now. I think 8 there's probably enough trafficking in this 9 area, unfortunately, so that all the prosecutors 10 that wanted could get in, plus the Attorney 11 General, but I think overall in the big numbers, 12 it's important for the Attorney General to be 13 involved. 14 Once again, let me just say, 15 though, that when you talk about the drug 16 companies here, actually the prosecution of 17 these cases by the Attorney General, it seems to 18 me, would put more pressure on the drug 19 companies and the companies that are involved to 20 be more careful in dealing with these sorts of 21 things because the Attorney General's office has 22 the ability to put direct pressure on the drug 23 companies much more so than, for instance, a 24 district attorney would have. 25 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 4178 1 President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Paterson. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: If Senator 5 Volker would yield for one last question. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Volker, do you yield for one last question? 8 SENATOR VOLKER: Why certainly. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 Senator yields. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator 12 Volker, would it be all right with you if 13 Senator Gold asked you a few questions? 14 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Gold. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Would the 18 gentleman yield to a couple of questions? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Volker, do you yield to Senator Gold? 21 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 Senator yields. 24 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, when I - 25 first of all, on page 3 of the bill where it 4179 1 talks about third degree, second degree and all 2 of that, that's all new classifications, am I 3 right or am I - 4 SENATOR VOLKER: Yeah, I believe 5 it is because it sets up separate classifi 6 cations for prosecution. Although some of the 7 sections, although these are new sections now, 8 they're actually second and third degree 9 sections under the old law but we're changing it 10 to apply to these new sorts of criminal 11 diversion language rather than the old larceny 12 language. 13 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Well, 14 Senator, if you would yield to one more 15 question. 16 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Just so we know 18 what we're talking about, I have the memo in 19 front of me and I'm not trying to be difficult, 20 but the memo does not explain. I mean, what is 21 the difference of the third degree and the 22 second degree and first degree? What is the 23 difference, because we're voting to create this 24 and make a reference but there's nothing in the 25 bill or the memo that tells me. 4180 1 SENATOR VOLKER: The degrees 2 relate to the value of the prescriptions sold 3 and then to multiple sales after a person has 4 been convicted of a previous criminal diversion. 5 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Mr. 6 President, if the Senator will yield to another 7 question. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Volker, do you continue to yield? The Senator 10 continues to yield. 11 SENATOR GOLD: The Senator, the 12 valuation question is a question that I think is 13 very important here. For example - 14 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 15 SENATOR GOLD: For example, 16 there's something called wholesale and retail. 17 If somebody is selling a prescription medication 18 and it was stolen from a manufacturer, do you 19 value it at the cost from the manufacturer and 20 if somebody stole it from a pharmacy, is it 21 valued at the cost that the pharmacist would 22 sell it on the open market, or is the loss to 23 the pharmacist what he paid the manufacturer? I 24 mean, how are these values determined? 25 SENATOR VOLKER: As I understand, 4181 1 the value would be determined basically and, of 2 course, obviously you know that any defense 3 attorney, I suppose would be able to challenge 4 such a determination but it would be basically 5 what the product is sold at from the place where 6 it was stolen from. In other words, if it was 7 stolen from a pharmacy and the value of the 8 property would be -- on the open market would be 9 $100, then that presumably would be the value 10 that it would be valued at as far as the larceny 11 is concerned, even though it was sold, 12 discounted out on the street for $20, and I 13 think that's the difference. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, if 15 you would yield to another question. 16 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 Senator continues to yield. 19 SENATOR GOLD: And after all, 20 Senator, I have no sympathy with the people who 21 are selling illegal prescriptions. That's not 22 the issue here, but I think that you and I both 23 agree, Senator, that if we're going to clamp 24 down -- and I'm proud of you that you're trying 25 to clamp down -- at least let's have a section 4182 1 that, you know, we don't wind up having problems 2 with in the courts. 3 If for the sake of argument, 4 Senator, somebody has something stolen from them 5 that is of a -- what should I say? It's a work 6 product of somebody. Let's say it's an artist. 7 I don't know how those valuations get done. 8 Let's say you steal something in a raw materials 9 stage. What I'm concerned about is that the 10 pharmacist may have a prescription which the 11 pharmacist will sell for $100 but let's say it 12 costs the pharmacist $60. The loss to the 13 pharmacist at that point is $60. That's what 14 his loss is. His loss is not $100, but what I'm 15 getting from you is that -- and by the way, if 16 it's stolen from the pharmacist, he paid $60 for 17 it and it's sold on the street for $30, I agree 18 with you that the value of the theft should not 19 be $30. I think that's foolishness, but I don't 20 have a problem if it's $60. I do have a problem 21 if you're going to say that the value is now 22 $100 because it was never $100. The guy who had 23 the loss, the pharmacist or the company who had 24 the loss is not out $100. They're out $60. Why 25 do we want to make that inflation and perhaps 4183 1 open up the question of the constitutionality of 2 the statute? 3 SENATOR VOLKER: I don't think it 4 would be the constitutionality of the statute, 5 Senator. You can make that argument if you 6 want, but the plain language of the statute says 7 the value of the medication or the device is 8 what it would be if purchased lawfully, and I 9 think the argument would be that that would be 10 the value that it is -- what it would be sold on 11 the street at the time, and I think that seems 12 to be the plain language of the statue. I think 13 a defense attorney could probably argue 14 otherwise, and I suppose that would be an 15 interesting issue at some trial, but I think the 16 language of the statute does suggest what I just 17 said and I think that would be the price. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Fine. Will the 19 Senator yield to one more question? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Volker, do you continue to yield? 22 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 24 Senator continues to yield. 25 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, if you 4184 1 had, as the test, the cost to the pharmacist 2 from whoever it's stolen, nobody can argue that 3 particular valuation. 4 On the other hand, you can have 5 something that's sold at a certain cost to five 6 different pharmacies and they have different 7 pricings. They have different coverages. They 8 have different values to what these medications 9 are and that's why I'm raising the question. 10 If you are trying to find a value 11 based upon an open market which is a varying 12 open market, I think that's harder to deal with 13 than if you deal by the valuation of what the 14 individual lost out of pocket and, by the way, 15 I'm agreeing with you, Senator. You're 16 absolutely on target that the value should not 17 be what the criminal got for it, which is way 18 under value, but it seems to me that if you deal 19 with the pharmacist's costs, you have a 20 receipt. You know what the individual's loss is 21 and they're out of pocket. If you're trying to 22 deal with a market value, I think it's something 23 which opens up the statute and causes a problem. 24 For example -- let me just go one 25 step further. You're being very patient. This 4185 1 is a long question, but let me say this. The 2 pharmacist sells the prescription for $100 3 except if you're part of a union, you get it - 4 the cost is 95 because you pay 8 and your union 5 makes up the other, but if you're a state 6 worker, the total cost is $90. I mean, it just 7 seems to me that it opens it up to a situation 8 where it's harder to deal with than if it was 9 the out-of-pocket cost. 10 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, I think 11 you probably make a point. I think what -- as 12 you know, the prosecutor would have to prove 13 value and the proof of value would presumably 14 come in an affidavit by the person who intended 15 to sell the product, and I assume that that 16 person would have to truthfully say what the 17 value would be if it was sold from the pharmacy 18 itself and that would be the proof that would be 19 used. I think the defense attorney might argue 20 that he only paid $60 for it and I guess that 21 would be a proof problem, but I think -- I think 22 this statute clearly states what the actual 23 proof needs to be. I think the prosecutor could 24 use that and get an affidavit from the person 25 and then go on from there. 4186 1 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, one 2 last question. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Gold. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, this is 6 the last question and I'm - 7 SENATOR VOLKER: Okay. Last 8 question. 9 SENATOR GOLD: -- I'm giving 10 Senator LaValle my word on that and I would hope 11 that -- I give you my marker. I know you don't 12 go back on a marker, right? 13 Senator, the -- I know what 14 you're saying, it's a matter of proof, but I'm 15 trying to think from the prosecutor's point of 16 view now. A prosecutor has an easy situation. 17 The medications were stolen. They're all 18 marked. They identify the source of the theft. 19 They call the pharmacist in and in front of a 20 grand jury, the pharmacist can show his 21 receipt. You've got a valuation. It seems to 22 me that the way the statute is drawn now, a 23 pharmacist at a trial, forget the grand jury 24 now, in the one case that I'm presenting to you, 25 he presents his receipt. In the case that 4187 1 you're talking about, you hope that pharmacist 2 could have all of his records subpoenaed on the 3 basis of challenging -- and this is a valid 4 challenge -- to challenge the valuation because 5 the valuation might take the crime from one 6 level to another and, therefore, the 7 pharmacist's entire records are opened up and 8 that could be two weeks of trial while they're 9 trying to determine the value because, from the 10 point of view of the criminal, who we want to 11 get rid of anyway, it might make a difference as 12 far as the valuation and that two weeks or a 13 week or two days or whatever it is, of testimony 14 and subpoenas, is not even an issue if you had 15 one small amendment to this which said the cost 16 to the pharmacist is the real value and, 17 Senator, you and I both know that with 18 pharmaceutical markups, which are probably not 19 that big because they're not the ones that make 20 it all, the value as set forth in the receipt is 21 probably enough for the -- for the prosecution. 22 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, I 23 appreciate your input and I certainly will talk 24 to the Attorney General about it. I strongly 25 suspect that this is probably the best language 4188 1 they could come up with, and I think very 2 possibly hopefully this will be the language 3 that will be enacted into law. 4 Thank you. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6 Secretary will read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 8 act shall take effect on the first day of 9 November. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll.) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 15 is passed. 16 Senator Skelos. 17 SENATOR SKELOS: The balance of 18 the calendar will be laid aside at the request 19 of Senator Gold. 20 SENATOR GOLD: No. That's not 21 so. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: And Senator 23 Paterson. 24 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4189 1 Tully -- we'll move to the general order of 2 motions and resolutions. 3 The Chair recognizes Senator 4 Tully. 5 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. 7 On behalf of Senator Alesi, on 8 page 21, I offer the following amendments to 9 Calendar Number 610, Senate Print Number 4060, 10 and ask that said bill retain its place on the 11 Third Reading Calendar. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 amendments to Calendar Number 610 are received 14 and adopted. The bill will retain its place on 15 the Third Reading Calendar. 16 Senator Tully. 17 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you, Mr. 18 President. 19 On behalf of Senator Trunzo, on 20 page 28, I offer the following amendments to 21 Calendar Number 742, Senate Print Number 1523-A, 22 and ask that said bill retain its place on the 23 Third Reading Calendar. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 25 amendments are received and adopted. The bill 4190 1 will retain its place on the Third Reading 2 Calendar. 3 SENATOR TULLY: On behalf of 4 Senator Maziarz, Mr. President, on page number 5 41, I offer the following amendments to Calendar 6 Number 930, Senate Print Number 4709-A, and ask 7 that said bill retain its place on the Third 8 Reading Calendar. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 amendments to Calendar Number 930 are received 11 and adopted. The bill will retain its place on 12 the Third Reading Calendar. 13 Senator Tully. 14 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, on 15 behalf of Senator Alesi, I wish to call up his 16 bill, Print Number 3525, recalled from the 17 Assembly, which is now at the desk. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 19 Secretary will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 405, by Senator Alesi, Senate Print 3525, an act 22 to amend the General Business Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Tully. 25 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, I 4191 1 now move to reconsider the vote by which this 2 bill was passed. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 motion is to reconsider the vote by which the 5 bill passed the house. 6 The Secretary will call the roll 7 on reconsideration. 8 (The Secretary called the roll on 9 reconsideration.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Tully. 13 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, I 14 now offer the following amendments. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 amendments are received and adopted. 17 Senator Tully. 18 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, on 19 behalf of Senator Lack, I wish to call up 20 Calendar 739, Assembly Print Number 1069. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 Secretary will read. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 739, by member of the Assembly Sidikman, 25 Assembly Print 1069, an act to amend the Real 4192 1 Property Tax Law. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Tully. 4 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, I 5 now move to reconsider the vote by which this 6 Assembly bill was substituted for Senator Lack's 7 bill, Senate Print Number 586 on May 7th, 1997. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Secretary will call the roll on 10 reconsideration. 11 (The Secretary called the roll on 12 reconsideration.) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Tully. 16 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, I 17 now move that Assembly Bill Number 1069 be 18 committed to the Committee on Rules and Senator 19 Lack's bill be restored to the order of the 20 Third Reading Calendar. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 Assembly bill will be committed and the Senate 23 bill is restored to the calendar. 24 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr. 25 President. I now offer the following 4193 1 amendments. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 amendments are received and adopted. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 5 are there any substitutions at the desk? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 7 are. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Could you make 9 them, please. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Secretary will read the substitutions. 12 THE SECRETARY: On page 52, 13 Senator LaValle moves to discharge from the 14 Committee on Rules Assembly Bill Number 89-A and 15 substitute it for the identical Third Reading 16 Calendar 1058. 17 On page 5, Senator Goodman moves 18 to discharge from the Committee on Rules 19 Assembly Bill Number 1552 and substitute it for 20 the identical Third Reading Calendar 113. 21 On page 18, Senator Volker moves 22 to discharge from the Committee on Rules 23 Assembly Bill Number 4848 and substitute it for 24 the identical Third Reading Calendar 522. 25 On page 45, Senator Maltese moves 4194 1 to discharge from the Committee on Rules 2 Assembly Bill Number 1124 and substitute it for 3 the identical Third Reading Calendar 971. 4 On page 32, Senator Leibell moves 5 to discharge from the Committee on Rules 6 Assembly Bill Number 6890 and substitute it for 7 the identical Third Reading Calendar 797. 8 On page 48, Senator Levy moves to 9 discharge from the Committee on Rules Assembly 10 Bill Number 7694 and substitute it for the 11 identical Third Reading Calendar 1010. 12 On page 49, Senator Kuhl moves to 13 discharge from the Committee on Rules Assembly 14 Bill Number 7033-A and substitute it for the 15 identical Third Reading Calendar 1023. 16 On page 50, Senator Maltese moves 17 to discharge from the Committee on Rules 18 Assembly Bill Number 5635 and substitute it for 19 the identical Third Reading Calendar 1030. 20 And on page 52, Senator Meier 21 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 22 Assembly Bill Number 4552 and substitute it for 23 the identical Third Reading Calendar 1057. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 25 substitutions are ordered. 4195 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 3 there being no further business, I move we 4 adjourn until Wednesday, May 28th, at 3:00 p.m. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 6 objection, hearing no objection, the Senate 7 stands adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, May 8 28, 3:00 p.m. 9 (Whereupon, at 6:29 p.m., the 10 Senate adjourned.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18