Wednesday, June 25, 1997

6134 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 June 25, 1997 11 10:15 a.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President 19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary 20 21 22 23 24 25 6135 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senate will come to order. Ask the members to 4 find their chairs, staff to find their places. 5 Ask everybody in the chamber to rise and join 6 with me in saying the Pledge of Allegiance to 7 the Flag, and please remain standing for the 8 prayer. 9 (The assemblage repeated the 10 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 11 We're very pleased to be joined 12 by the Reverend Amy Perkins, whose husband was 13 with us yesterday, who comes from the Bethany 14 Presbyterian Church in Menands. 15 Reverend Perkins. 16 REVEREND AMY PERKINS: Let us 17 pray. 18 Great and Almighty God, God of 19 all grace and mercy, throughout history You have 20 called men and women, our forefathers and fore 21 mothers, to be leaders of Your people. Grant 22 these, our leaders, Your wisdom, Your discern 23 ment, Your power, Your truth and Your righteous 24 ness, through the gift of Your Holy Spirit. We 25 pray all of this in the name of our son -- of 6136 1 Your son, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. 2 Amen. 3 THE PRESIDENT: Reading of the 4 Journal. 5 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 6 Tuesday, June 24th. The Senate met pursuant to 7 adjournment. The Journal of Monday, June 23rd, 8 was read and approved. On motion, Senate 9 adjourned. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing 11 no objection, the Journal stands approved as 12 read. 13 Presentation of petitions. 14 Messages from the Assembly. 15 Messages from the Governor. 16 Reports of standing committees. 17 Reports of select committees. 18 Communications and reports from 19 state officers. 20 Motions and resolutions. 21 The Chair recognizes Senator 22 Hannon. 23 SENATOR HANNON: Yes, Mr. 24 President. 25 On behalf of Senator Skelos, 6137 1 would you please remove the sponsor's star from 2 Calendar Number 223. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: At the 4 request of the sponsor, the star will be removed 5 on Calendar Number 223. 6 Senator Hannon. 7 SENATOR HANNON: And also on 8 behalf of Senator Stafford, please remove the 9 sponsor's star from Calendar Number 904. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Star will 11 be removed on Calendar Number 904 at the request 12 of the sponsor. 13 Senator Bruno. 14 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I 15 believe that there is a privileged resolution at 16 the desk by Senator Leibell. I would ask that 17 the title only be read and move for its 18 immediate adoption. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will read the title to the privileged resolution 21 by Senator Leibell. 22 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 23 Leibell, Legislative Resolution honoring the 24 life of Michael Eric Neuner, Sr. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 6138 1 is on the resolution. All those in favor 2 signify by saying aye. 3 (Response of "Aye.") 4 Opposed nay. 5 (There was no response. ) 6 The resolution is adopted. 7 Senator Bruno, that brings us to 8 the calendar. 9 SENATOR BRUNO: Can we take up 10 the non-controversial at this time, Mr. 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 13 will read the non-controversial calendar. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 78, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 731-A, an 16 act to legalize, ratify and confirm. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 18 bill aside. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 124, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number 738 21 A, an act to amend the Education Law, in 22 relation to prohibiting financing municipal 23 organizations. 24 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside, 25 please. 6139 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 2 bill aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 232, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 18-B, an 5 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 6 binding by excess line brokers. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 10 act shall take effect in 180 days. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 280, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 2514-A, an 19 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in 20 relation to liability. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside, 22 please. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 24 bill aside. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6140 1 306, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 1983-A, an 2 act to amend the Domestic Relations Law, in 3 relation to any action or proceedings involving 4 the custody of a child. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6 will read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 332, by member of the Assembly Sweeney, Assembly 17 Print 3221, an act to amend the Election Law. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 20 bill aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 339, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 453-C, an 23 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 24 the settlement. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6141 1 is high. Lay the bill aside. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 390, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 1745, an act 4 to amend the Education Law, in relation to 5 requirement for written prescriptions. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 7 will read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect on the first day of 10 January. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 394, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 3201, an 19 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to 20 proceedings in cases of professional misconduct. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 24 act shall take effect immediately. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6142 1 roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 492, by member of the Assembly Tocci, Assembly 8 Print 2017, an act to amend the Public Health 9 Law, in relation to composition and purpose of 10 the tick-borne disease. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 498, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 403-A, an 23 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 24 requiring the use of child-proof locks. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6143 1 will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside, 5 please. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 7 bill aside. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 633, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 4111-A, an 10 act to amend Chapter 521 of the Laws of 1994. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 12 bill aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 643, by Senator Seward, Senate 3585, an act to 15 amend the Energy Law, in relation to transfer of 16 certain functions. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 18 will read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 17. This 20 act shall take effect October 1st. 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 23 roll. 24 (The Secretary called the roll.) 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6144 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 784, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 5081-A, an 4 act to amend the Social Service Law, in relation 5 to establishing. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 7 bill aside. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 801, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 5178-A, 10 an act to amend the Education Law, in relation 11 to authorizing. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 13 bill aside for the day. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 855, by Senator Meier, Senate Print 3307-B, an 16 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in 17 relation to power of federal enforcement 18 officers. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 20 bill aside temporarily. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 928, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 4127, 23 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation 24 Law, in relation to establishing restrictions on 25 the feeding of waterfowl. 6145 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 2 will read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 10 is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 982, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2703-B, an 13 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 14 relation to a parking system. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Home rule 16 message is not at the desk. Lay the bill 17 aside. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1012, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 4817, an act 20 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 21 relation to requiring the successful passage of 22 a vision test. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 24 will read the last section. 25 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6146 1 act shall take effect April 1st. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 3 roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 7 is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 1056, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 4484-A, 10 an act to establish the Long Island Groundwater 11 Resource Institute at the Marine Resource 12 Center. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 22 is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 1135, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 2244-A. 25 SENMATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 6147 1 THE SECRETARY: An act to amend 2 the General Municipal Law. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 4 bill aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 1349, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 5320-C, an 7 act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation 8 to establishing cancer detection and education 9 advisory council. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This 13 act shall take effect in 180 days. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 1369, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 5098, an 22 act to amend Chapter 879 of the Laws of 1936. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 24 will read the last section. 25 THE SECRETARY: Section 9. This 6148 1 act shall take effect June 30th. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 3 roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 7 is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 1373, by Senator Montgomery, Senate Print 10 5374-A, an act to amend the Agriculture and 11 Markets Law, in relation to injuring a guide dog 12 or a hearing dog. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect on the first day of 17 November. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 19 roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 23 is passed. 24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 25 1379, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 6149 1 5506, an act in relation to granting Tier I 2 retirement status. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 4 bill aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 1382, by 6 Senator Levy, Senate Print 5513, an act to amend 7 the Public Authorities Law, in relation to 8 extending. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: CALENDAR nUMBER 20 1383, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 5514, an act 21 to amend Chapter 56 of the Laws of 1993. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the last section. 24 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 25 act shall take effect immediately. 6150 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 2 roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll.) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6 is passed. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 1384, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5523, an 9 act to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law, 10 relation to modifying. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 SENATOR PADAVAN: No. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 1392 - 23 SENATOR PADAVAN: In the 24 negative. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6151 1 Padavan, you wish to be recorded in the negative 2 on Calendar Number 1384? 3 SENATOR PADAVAN: That is 4 correct, Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 6 objection, hearing no objection, Senator Padavan 7 will be recorded in the negative on Calendar 8 Number 1384. 9 Secretary will continue to read 10 the non-controversial calendar. 11 THE SECRETARY: 1392, by Senator 12 Santiago, Senate Print 5595, an act to authorize 13 the Office of General Services to sell and 14 convey. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 16 no home rule message at the desk. The bill will 17 be laid aside. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1396, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 1173, an 20 act to amend the Retirement and Social Security 21 Law, in relation to return of member 22 contributions. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 24 a home rule message at the desk. The Secretary 25 will read the last section. 6152 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 3 bill aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1417, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5552-A, 6 an act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 7 exemption from Article 9. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay aside. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 10 bill aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1421, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 13 5598, an act to amend the Insurance Law, in 14 relation to continuing. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 17 bill aside. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1422, by Senator Gentile, Senate Print 3836, an 20 act authorizing the city of New York to 21 reconvey. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the last -- there is a home rule 24 message at the desk. Secretary will read the 25 last section. 6153 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 8 is passed. 9 Senator Bruno, that completes the 10 reading of the non-controversial calendar. 11 Senator Tully, why do you rise? 12 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, 13 may I have unanimous consent to be recorded in 14 the negative on Calendar 1384. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 16 objection, hearing no objection, Senator Tully 17 will be recorded in the negative on Calendar 18 Number 1384. 19 Senator Hannon? 20 SENATOR HANNON: Mr. President, 21 I'd like to be recorded in the same way on 22 1384. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 24 objection, hearing no objection, Senator Hannon 25 will be recorded in the negative on Calendar 6154 1 Number 1384. 2 Senator Bruno. 3 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 4 can we at this time take up the controversial 5 calendar. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 7 will read the controversial calendar beginning 8 with Calendar Number 78, on page 4. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 78, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 731-A, an 11 act to legalize, ratify and confirm. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Local 13 fiscal impact note is at the desk, but the bill 14 is high, so it will be laid aside. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 124, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 738-A, an 17 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to 18 prohibiting financing political organizations. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 20 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay aside 21 temporarily. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 23 bill aside temporarily. 24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 25 280, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 2514-A, an 6155 1 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in 2 relation to liability for environmental 3 clean-up. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside 6 temporarily. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 8 bill aside temporarily. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 332, by member of the Assembly Sweeney, Assembly 11 Print 3221, an act to amend the Education Law, 12 in relation to transmitting of certain 13 information. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside 16 temporarily. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 18 bill aside temporarily. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 339, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 453-C, an 21 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 22 settlement of claims. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 24 is high. The bill will have to be laid aside. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6156 1 498, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 403-A, an 2 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to 3 requiring the use of child-proof locks. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside 6 temporarily. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 8 bill aside temporarily. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 633, by Senator Tully. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Bruno. 13 SENATOR BRUNO: Can we ask for an 14 immediate meeting of the Finance Committee in 15 Room 332. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 17 will be an immediate meeting of the Finance 18 Committee, immediate meeting of the Finance 19 Committee in the Majority Conference Room, Room 20 332. 21 Secretary will continue to read 22 the controversial calendar. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 633, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 4111-A, an 25 act to amend Chapter 521 of the Laws of 1994. 6157 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar 2 Number 633 is high also, so we'll lay the bill 3 aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 784, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 5081-A, an 6 act to amend the Social Service Law, in relation 7 to establishing. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 9 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside 10 temporarily, please. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 12 bill aside temporarily. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 855, by Senator Meier, Senate Print 3307-B, an 15 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in 16 relation to powers of federal law enforcement 17 officers. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 19 will read the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 23 President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Marcellino, why do you rise? 6158 1 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 2 President, can I have unanimous consent to be 3 recorded - 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: No. 5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: No? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Because 7 we're on a slow -- we're on a roll call. 8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: O.K. I'll 9 wait. Then I'll unroll. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 11 bill aside. 12 Now, Senator Marcellino. 13 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 14 Mr. President. May I have unanimous consent to 15 be recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 16 1384. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 18 objection, hearing no objection, Senator 19 Marcellino will be recorded in the negative on 20 Calendar Number 1384. 21 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 22 Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 24 will continue to read the controversial 25 calendar. 6159 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 982, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2703-B, an 3 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 4 relation to authorizing a permit parking system 5 in the city of Beacon. 6 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President, 7 lay that aside, please. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 9 bill aside awaiting a home rule message. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1135, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 2244-A, an 12 act to amend the General Municipal Law and the 13 Town Law, in relation to the practice of 14 forestry. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 16 President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Paterson. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 20 to save the Chair a trip and also to provide a 21 little clarification, Senator Leichter and 22 Senator Dollinger have laid the past three or 23 four bills aside. They're both in the Finance 24 Committee, and that is the reason that we're 25 having a little problem right here because 6160 1 they're in committee meeting and we would like 2 to give them the opportunity to debate these 3 bills on the floor. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We can 5 lay this bill aside temporarily. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1379, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 8 5506, an act in relation to granting Tier I 9 retirement status to certain public employees. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 11 bill aside temporarily. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 1396, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 1173, an 14 act to amend the Retirement and Social Security 15 Law, in relation to return of member 16 contributions. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 18 a home rule message at the desk. Secretary - 19 Senator Paterson. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 21 might we temporarily lay that bill aside. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is that 23 because some member had a request who is not 24 here in the chamber because of the Finance 25 Committee, Senator Paterson? 6161 1 SENATOR PATERSON: That's right, 2 Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Skelos, what's your pleasure? 5 SENATOR SKELOS: No objection. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 7 bill aside. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 1417, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5552-A, 10 an act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 11 exemption from Article 9. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Paterson. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Same trouble. 15 The next bill, Mr. President, 1421, that's a 16 bill that we could take up right now if it's 17 your pleasure, if it's the Majority Leader's 18 pleasure, excuse me. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside 20 temporarily. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 22 bill aside temporarily. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 1421, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 25 5598, an act to amend the Insurance Law, in 6162 1 relation to continuing the purpose and extending 2 the existence of the Medical Malpractice 3 Insurance Association. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 6 bill aside temporarily. 7 Senator Skelos, that completes 8 the first time through the reading of the 9 controversial calendar. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 11 there's a privileged resolution at the desk by 12 Senator Meier, 1934. Could we have the title 13 read and move for its immediate adoption. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 15 return to the order of motions and resolutions 16 and the Secretary will read the title to 17 Resolution Number 1934, by Senator Meier. 18 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Meier, 19 Legislative Resolution, commemorating June 25th, 20 1997 as Korean War Day in the state of New 21 York. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 23 is on the resolution. All those in favor 24 signify by saying aye. 25 (Response of "Aye.") 6163 1 Opposed nay. 2 (There was no response. ) 3 The resolution is adopted. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Skelos. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. With the 8 consent of the Minority, would you please call 9 up Calendar Number 1417, by Senator Goodman. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read Calendar Number 1417. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 1417, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5552-A, 14 an act to amend the Tax Law. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 16 will read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 18. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 24 is passed. 25 Senator Skelos. 6164 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 2 is there any housekeeping at the desk? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We have 4 one resolution at the desk, privileged 5 resolution by Senator Seabrook we could take up 6 at this time. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: If we could have 8 the title read and move for its adoption. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 10 return to the order of motions and resolutions. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Could we have 12 that resolution read in its entirety. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the privileged resolution by Senator 15 Seabrook, Number 1935, in its entirety. 16 THE SECRETARY: Legislative 17 Resolution, by Senators Seabrook, Smith, 18 Paterson and Montgomery, 1935: Mourning the 19 death of Dr. Betty Shabazz, distinguished 20 citizen. 21 WHEREAS it is the custom of this 22 legislative body to mourn publicly the death of 23 prominent citizens of the state of New York 24 whose life work and civic endeavor served to 25 enhance the reputation of the state; 6165 1 WHEREAS Dr. Betty Shabazz of 2 Yonkers died on June 23, 1997; 3 Dr. Betty Shabazz distinguished 4 herself by her sincere dedication and 5 substantial contribution to the welfare of her 6 community; 7 Dr. Betty Shabazz' spirit of 8 humanity, of devotion to the good of all, 9 carried over into all fields of enterprise 10 including charitable and philanthropic work; and 11 WHEREAS, born in Detroit, 12 Michigan, Dr. Betty Shabazz, age 61, studied at 13 Tuskegee Institute, Brooklyn State Hospital 14 School of Nursing, Jersey City State College and 15 earned a doctorate in education from the 16 University of Massachusetts in 1975; 17 After her education was 18 completed, Dr. Betty Shabazz became Director of 19 Public Relations at Medgar Evers College and 20 later became head of the school's Office of 21 Institutional Advancement; 22 WHEREAS in the decades after the 23 death of her husband, Malcolm X, Dr. Betty 24 Shabazz emerged as a leader in her own right, 25 but her three-week struggle for life inspired 6166 1 her largest following of all; 2 A blood drive on June 17, 1997 3 held at a Harlem bank that was intended to 4 support her surgeries drew long lines of donors 5 from many races and nationalities; 6 WHEREAS among those who visited 7 her in the hospital were civil rights leader 8 Jesse L. Jackson, poet Maya Angelou, Coretta 9 Scott King, the widow of Dr. Martin Luther King, 10 Jr., Kweisi Mfume, the President of the National 11 Association for the Advancement of Colored 12 People, and former New York City Mayor David M. 13 Dinkins; 14 WHEREAS along with Coretta Scott 15 King and Myrlie Evers-Williams, Dr. Betty 16 Shabazz emerged as a powerful symbol in her own 17 right, for millions of people looked to her for 18 some kind of understanding of the civil rights 19 movement; 20 NOW, THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED 21 that this legislative body pause in its 22 deliberations to mourn the death of Dr. Betty 23 Shabazz, distinguished citizen; and 24 BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that a 25 copy of this resolution, suitably engrossed, be 6167 1 transmitted to the family of Dr. Betty Shabazz. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Any 3 Senator wishing to speak on the resolution? 4 Hearing none - 5 SENATOR WALDON: Wait a minute. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Waldon. 8 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 9 rarely have I felt the way I do this morning. I 10 applaud Senator Seabrook on bringing this 11 resolution before us. 12 I had the good fortune of repre 13 senting Dr. Shabazz in regard to recovering 14 monies from the products that were across this 15 nation which were using the likeness of Malcolm 16 X without benefit to Sister Betty or to her 17 children. As a result of that representation 18 effort, if you will, as her agent over the last 19 five, six, seven years, Barbara, my wife, and I 20 got to know her very well. We visited each 21 other at our homes. She spent time in our home; 22 we went to many dinners and lunches together. 23 In fact, we even traveled a little bit back and 24 forth in regard to her business enterprises and 25 to some personal things that she had asked me to 6168 1 do in regard to the Malcolm X Foundation. 2 This is not just a sad moment for 3 Al Waldon and his family. This truly, her 4 passing, is a moment of mourning, a moment of 5 pathos for the entire nation. This lady was 6 regal, the manner in which she carried herself, 7 in the manner in which she conducted her 8 business. She was inspirational, and that 9 despite the tragedy which had followed her since 10 the death of her husband, and all of the 11 controversy which surrounded her and the fact 12 that she was part of the Muslim community. She 13 stood tall. She was a conciliator, because it 14 would have been very easy for her to exclude 15 people because of the pain the manner in which 16 she had been treated brought upon herself and 17 her family. 18 She was a brilliant woman, very 19 intelligent and gifted woman, a moving speaker, 20 someone who not only could move you with the 21 substance of her speech, but caused you 22 laughter, because of her wry sense of humor. I 23 don't know if words would allow me to truly 24 express my feeling, but they are all that I 25 have. 6169 1 I suspect that this period of 2 morning should not be celebrated just in this 3 chamber or in the city of New York or in the 4 state, but across the nation, because there are 5 very few people, not just women, but very few 6 people in this country, who have the stature, 7 who demand the respect, admiration and love as 8 did Sister Betty Shabazz. 9 I am very sorry that she's passed 10 away, especially under the circumstances in 11 which it is alleged that she suffered her 12 injuries; but I'm very glad that I had the 13 opportunity on a very personal note, in a very 14 personal way to get to know her and to get to 15 love her. 16 Thank you very much. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Paterson, on the resolution. 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 20 when the bright light of scrutiny surrounds the 21 life of an individual, often it, in many ways, 22 obfuscates some of the greatness that they 23 display on their own. It would not have 24 mattered who Dr. Betty Shabazz was. She was an 25 outstanding achiever, a great humanitarian, an 6170 1 ambassador for all of the principles, I think, 2 that this body would represent, and probably as 3 well respected a New Yorker as we have ever been 4 privileged to know. 5 She was beset with great 6 intimidation and hardship in her life. She was 7 married to Malcolm X who was assassinated in 8 front of her and four children on February 21st, 9 1965. She at the time was pregnant with twins. 10 One week earlier, on February 14th, 1965, her 11 home was fire bombed so she was left at that 12 period in her life, homeless and widowed and 13 somehow like the phoenix out of the ashes, was 14 able to bring her family together and to educate 15 her children and to persevere herself, receiving 16 a Ph.D. and some of the other great accolades 17 that are described in the resolution. 18 But as Senator Waldon so aptly 19 put it, as he so often does, this was a human 20 being that we would all have been privileged to 21 know. I was one of the luckier among us. She 22 was a very good personal friend of the former 23 Assemblywoman Geraldine Daniels and visited her 24 at least once a week. I live in the same 25 apartment building with the former Assembly 6171 1 woman and was pleased to know her and was 2 privileged to speak with her on many, many 3 times. 4 She had a unique insight and was 5 certainly a universalist. Malcolm X, who lived 6 in our time and offered us a disciplined 7 criticism and honesty, a steadfast honesty about 8 the America as it was in the '60s and in the 9 late '50s and as the America as it was for 10 African-Americans, was misunderstood in his 11 time. 12 Later he traveled to Mecca and 13 found that there were people of all races and 14 all religions who could live together and had 15 the courage and had the conviction to change a 16 lot of his beliefs, while at the same time 17 militating very strongly for economic, political 18 and social justice for all Americans, 19 particularly those of his community, the 20 African-American community. 21 That courage, that character that 22 he demonstrated is the reason that he was buried 23 at age 39. It is so often that individuals who 24 have achieved great notoriety recognize that 25 there must be some fine tuning of their message 6172 1 and then unfortunately are assassinated for it. 2 He more -- as the decades passed, becomes more 3 understood and greater revered by all peoples 4 around the world, and so this international star 5 was also the benefit of his relationship with 6 Dr. Betty Shabazz, who was a driving force in 7 his life and was certainly a partner in all of 8 his efforts; and so it was so tragic to hear 9 nearly a month ago of the unfortunate and tragic 10 situation that befell his family again, which 11 has suffered for four generations from the 12 murder of Malcolm X's father, to his own 13 assassination, to some of the misfortunes of 14 other family members, and now the tragic death 15 of Dr. Betty Shabazz, that it almost seems an 16 ironic twist that some of the greatest and some 17 of those who displayed the greatest virtue are 18 beset with the most severe tragedies. That's 19 something that I can not explain and do not 20 understand at this point in my life, but it's 21 something that we all should recognize when we 22 pay tribute to this great family and to this 23 outstanding woman of achievement who will be 24 buried in the next couple of days. 25 I want to thank Senator Seabrook 6173 1 for bringing this resolution before the body and 2 all of my colleagues for allowing us to present 3 to you a great person of all communities who we 4 had the privilege of knowing in our generation. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Smith, on the resolution. 7 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you, Mr. 8 Chairman. 9 My family and I too suffer a 10 personal loss with the death of Dr. Betty 11 Shabazz. 12 Dr. Shabazz was a good friend who 13 was always there with the shoulder to cry on and 14 an ear to listen and a kind word in time of 15 sorrow or in time of need. I remember her phone 16 calls when I lost my mother, and my -- there was 17 an outpouring from all of the people of the city 18 of New York because she was truly a considerate 19 and great woman. 20 Much has been said about the life 21 of Malcolm X. It's been portrayed in movies and 22 on television, and it talks about some of the 23 bad things, but it also shows the gifts that he 24 gave to each and every one of us; but the 25 greatest gift he gave us was that of his wife, 6174 1 Dr. Betty Shabazz, and all of us will mourn her 2 greatly. 3 Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Lachman, on the resolution. 6 SENATOR LACHMAN: I rise also, 7 Mr. President, to speak on Dr. Shabazz. 8 I knew her as an academic and as 9 administrator in the City University of New 10 York. She graced the academic community and the 11 administrative community with a great deal of 12 dignity, a great deal of knowledge, a great deal 13 of perseverance. She was beloved by her 14 students, her fellow faculty members and 15 administrators and she will be missed by all. 16 She was an extraordinarily gifted person who 17 lived through many tragedies and fought each one 18 to the utmost of her ability. 19 Her memory will be remembered. 20 Her acts and deeds will be remembered by people 21 of all faiths, races and backgrounds, because of 22 her own innate ability and achievements in this 23 world. 24 Thank you. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6175 1 Oppenheimer, on the resolution. 2 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Yes. It's 3 been said that she was an important person in 4 New York City. I have to also note that she was 5 a very important person in Westchester County 6 where she lived for a large portion of her life 7 in Mount Vernon and was very instrumental to 8 those of us in Westchester in the academic field 9 and also in the arena of social services. 10 She will be missed by all of us 11 because she was a dear friend to all of us. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Seabrook, on the resolution. 14 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yes, Mr. 15 President. This is truly a living tribute to 16 one who has given so much and is considered a 17 treasure in our community and in this state and 18 I'd like to thank the body for allowing the 19 resolution to be presented and also to say a 20 special thanks to the Governor for seeing fit to 21 memorialize and commemorate this by having the 22 state flags flown at half staff, to say that 23 Betty Shabazz was truly a treasure to all of us 24 and she meant so much to all of us, and on a 25 personal note that she was truly a friend and 6176 1 very dear and she would be here with us in 2 celebration each year and she never missed a 3 caucus we did and was always here to do whatever 4 we asked of her to do. 5 So I'd like to say that she will 6 truly be missed by all of us, but she was a 7 woman's woman. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 9 is on the resolution. All those in favor 10 signify by saying aye. 11 (Response of "Aye.") 12 Opposed nay. 13 (There was no response. ) 14 The resolution is unanimously 15 adopted. 16 Senator Skelos. 17 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 18 there will be an immediate meeting of the Rules 19 Committee in the Majority Conference Room. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Immediate 21 meeting of the Rules Committee, immediate 22 meeting of the Rules Committee in the Majority 23 Conference Room, Room 332. 24 Senator Abate, why do you rise? 25 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. I ask for 6177 1 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative 2 on Calendar Number 1384. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 4 objection, hearing no objection, Senator Abate 5 will be recorded in the negative on Calendar 6 Number 1384. 7 Senator Skelos. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 9 know it was inadvertent, but perhaps the 10 Minority would consent to any member wishing to 11 sponsor the resolution that just passed if they 12 could notify the desk and go on the resolution. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Seabrook, is that all right with you? 15 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All 17 right. If there is any member who wishes to 18 co-sponsor in addition to those who have already 19 indicated they wish to co-sponsor, if they would 20 have the staff fill out the appropriate forms 21 and file them with the desk. 22 Senator Seabrook? 23 SENATOR SKELOS: Senate will 24 stand at ease. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 6178 1 will stand at ease. 2 (The Senate stood at ease from 3 10:55 a.m., to 11:31 a.m.) 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 5 will come to order. Ask the members to take 6 their chairs, staff to find their places. 7 Senator Skelos. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 9 if we could return to reports of standing 10 committees, I believe there's a report of the 11 Rules Committee at the desk. I ask that it be 12 read. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 14 return to the order of reports of standing 15 committees. I'll ask the Secretary to read the 16 report of the Rules Committee. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno, 18 from the Committee on Rules, reports the 19 following bills: 20 Senate Print 430-A, by Senator 21 Goodman, an act to amend the Education Law; 22 751, by Senator Volker, an act to 23 amend the Criminal Procedure Law; 24 1667, by Senator Stachowski, an 25 act directing the Commissioner of the Division 6179 1 of Criminal Justice Services; 2 1882, by Senator Velella, an act 3 to amend the Administrative Code of the city of 4 New York; 5 2186, by Senator Hannon, an act 6 to amend the Education Law;. 7 2574, by Senator Montgomery, an 8 act authorizing the city of New York; 9 2659-A, by Senator LaValle, an 10 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law; 11 2688, by Senator Velella, an act 12 to amend the Public Housing Law; 13 2697, by Senator Skelos, an act 14 to amend the Public Service Law; 15 2707-A, by Senator Spano, an act 16 to amend the Public Health Law; 17 3689-A, by Senator Present, an 18 act to amend the County Law; 19 3799-A, by Senator Present, an 20 act authorizing the payment; 21 4467, by Senator Padavan, an act 22 to amend the Public Service Law; 23 4707-A, by Senator Hannon, an act 24 to amend the Social Services Law; 25 4741, by Senator LaValle, an act 6180 1 to amend Chapter 554; 2 4798-B, by Senator Seward, an act 3 to enact the Ithaca City School District Public 4 Construction Flexibility; 5 5301, by Senator Larkin, an act 6 to legalize, ratify and confirm; 7 5435, by Senator Maziarz, an act 8 to amend the Family Court Act; 9 5522, by Senator Goodman, an act 10 to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law; and 11 5579, by Senator Saland, an act 12 to authorize the city school district. 13 All bills ordered direct for 14 third reading. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Skelos. 17 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 18 move to accept the Rules report. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 20 to accept the report of the Rules Committee. 21 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 22 (Response of "Aye.") 23 Opposed nay. 24 (There was no response. ) 25 The report is accepted. 6181 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 3 believe there is a report of the Finance 4 Committee at the desk. I ask that it be read. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Ask the 6 Secretary to read the report of the Rules 7 Committee -- excuse me, report of the Finance 8 Committee. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 10 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 11 following nominations: 12 Member of the Small Business 13 Advisory Board, Ross M. Weale, of South Salem. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 15 is on the nomination. All those in favor 16 signify by saying aye. 17 (Response of "Aye.") 18 Opposed nay. 19 (There was no response. ) 20 The nominee is confirmed. 21 Secretary will read. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 23 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 24 following nomination: 25 Member of the Metropolitan 6182 1 Transportation Authority, Andrew Saul, of 2 Katonah. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 4 is on the nomination. All those in favor 5 signify by saying aye. 6 (Response of "Aye.") 7 Opposed nay. 8 (There was no response. ) 9 The nominee is confirmed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 11 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 12 following nomination: 13 Member of the Advisory Council on 14 Alcoholism and Substance Abuse Services, Robert 15 G. Gardner, of Cortland. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 17 is on the nomination. All those in favor 18 signify by saying aye. 19 (Response of "Aye.") 20 Opposed nay. 21 (There was no response.) 22 The nominee is confirmed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 24 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 25 following nomination: 6183 1 Members of the New York State 2 Hospital Review and Planning Council, Sal 3 Alfiero, of Amherst, and Georgia Jenis, of 4 Williamsville. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 6 is on the nominations. All those in favor 7 signify by saying aye. 8 (Response of "Aye.") 9 Opposed nay. 10 (There was no response.) 11 The nominees are confirmed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 13 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 14 following nomination: 15 Member of the Public Health 16 Council, Joan H. Ellison, of Livonia. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 18 is on the nomination. All those in favor 19 signify by saying aye. 20 (Response of "Aye.") 21 Opposed nay. 22 (There was no response.) 23 The nomination is confirmed. 24 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 25 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 6184 1 following nomination: 2 Members of the Medical Advisory 3 Committee, John Angerosa, Jr., M.D., of Scotia; 4 Randall D. Bloomfield, J.D., of Brooklyn; Norman 5 Loomis, M.D., of Ontario; Tamton Mustapha, M.D., 6 of Valatie and Dennis P. Norfleet, of Oswego. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 8 of is on the nominations. All those in favor 9 signify by saying aye. 10 (Response of "Aye.") 11 Opposed nay. 12 (There was no response.) 13 The nominees are confirmed. 14 Secretary will continue to read. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 16 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 17 following nominations: 18 Members of the Medical Advisory 19 Committee, Inga J. Scott, of Pulaski; Roger W. 20 Triftshauser, D.D.S., of Batavia; Ellen M. 21 Vossler, D.D.S., of Eggertsville, and Charles E. 22 Wisor, M.D., of Geneva. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 24 is on the nominations. All those in favor 25 signify by saying aye. 6185 1 (Response of "Aye.") 2 Opposed nay. 3 The nominees are confirmed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 5 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 6 following nomination: 7 Member of the Board of Visitors 8 of the Broome Developmental Disabilities 9 Services Office, Joseph F. Abissi, of Johnson 10 City. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 12 is on the nomination. All those in favor 13 signify by saying aye. 14 (Response of "Aye.") 15 Opposed nay. 16 (There was no response.) 17 The nominee is confirmed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 19 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 20 following nominations: 21 Members of the Board of Visitors 22 of the Central New York Developmental 23 Disabilities Services Office, Doris W. Latimer, 24 of Rome; Henry F. Miller, Jr., of Barneveld; 25 Shirley Mary Wilcox, of Little Falls, and Thomas 6186 1 Yousey, Sr., of Lowville. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 3 is on the nominations. All those in favor 4 signify by saying aye. 5 (Response of "Aye.") 6 Opposed nay. 7 (There was no response. ) 8 The nominees are confirmed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 10 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 11 following nomination: 12 Member of the Board of Visitors 13 of the Letchworth Village Developmental 14 Disabilities Services Office, Alice Kayser, of 15 Orangeburg. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 17 is on the nomination. All those in favor 18 signify by saying aye. 19 (Response of "Aye.") 20 Opposed nay. 21 (There was no response.) 22 The nominee is confirmed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 24 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 25 following nominations: 6187 1 Members of the Board of Visitors 2 of the Middletown Psychiatric Center, Frank P. 3 Dodd, of Middletown, and Helen R. Swanwick, of 4 Middletown. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 6 is on the nominations. All those in favor 7 signify by saying aye. 8 (Response of "Aye.") 9 Opposed nay. 10 (There was no response. ) 11 The nominees are confirmed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 13 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 14 following nomination: 15 Member of the Board of Visitors 16 of the Mid-Hudson Psychiatric Center, Albert R. 17 Lybolt, of Middletown. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 19 is on the nomination. All those in favor 20 signify by saying aye. 21 (Response of "Aye.") 22 Opposed nay. 23 (There was no response.) 24 The nominee is confirmed. 25 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 6188 1 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 2 following nomination: 3 Member of the Board of Visitors 4 of the Rockland Psychiatric Center, Elizabeth A. 5 Van Wynen, of Pearl River. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 7 is on the nomination. All those in favor 8 signify by saying aye. 9 (Response of "Aye.") 10 Opposed nay. 11 (There was no response. ) 12 The nominee is confirmed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 14 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 15 following nomination: 16 Member of the Board of Visitors 17 of the Taconic Developmental Disabilities 18 Services Office, Joan E. Klink, of Fishkill. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 20 is on the nomination. All those in favor 21 signify by saying aye. 22 (Response of "Aye.") 23 Opposed nay. 24 (There was no response. ) 25 The nomination is confirmed. 6189 1 Senator Skelos, that completes 2 the Finance Committee report. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 4 if we could return to the controversial 5 calendar, with the consent of the Minority, 6 we're going to call up three bills now which I 7 think we can dispose of. 8 Would you please start with 9 Calendar Number 784. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read Calendar Number 784. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 784, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 5081-A, an 14 act to amend the Social Services Law. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 16 will read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 24 is passed. 25 SENATOR SKELOS: Please call up 6190 1 Calendar Number 855. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 855, by Senator Meier, Senate Print 3307-B, an 6 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 16 is passed. 17 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you please 18 call up Calendar Number 1392. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will read. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 1392, by Senator Santiago, Senate Print 5595, an 23 act to authorize the Office of General Services 24 to sell and convey certain real property. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6191 1 will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 5 roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 9 is passed. 10 Senator Skelos. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 12 at this time if we would take up Senate 13 Supplemental Calendar 59-A, non-controversial. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 15 will read the non-controversial reading of 16 Supplemental Calendar 59-A, which is on the 17 members' desks. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1380, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 430-A, an 20 act to amend the Education Law. 21 SENATOR GOODMAN: Lay the bill 22 aside. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 24 bill aside temporarily at the request of the 25 sponsor. 6192 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1400, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 751, an 3 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay aside. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 6 bill aside. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 1412, by Senator Stachowski, Senate Print 1667, 9 an act directing the Commissioner of the 10 Division of Criminal Justice. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 1423, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 1882, an 23 act to amend the Administrative Code of the city 24 of New York. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 6193 1 a home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 2 read the last section. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 5 bill aside. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1424, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 2186, an 8 act to amend the Education Law. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 11 bill aside. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 1425, by Senator Montgomery, Senate Print 2574, 14 an act authorizing the city of New York. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 16 no home rule message at the desk. The bill will 17 be laid aside. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1426, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 2659-A, 20 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation 21 Law. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the last section. 24 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 25 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 6194 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 2 roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6 is passed. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 1427, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 2688, an 9 act to amend the Public Housing Law, in relation 10 to requiring. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 1428, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 2697, an 23 act to amend the Public Service Law, in relation 24 to definition. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6195 1 will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Leichter 5 has asked that it be laid aside. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 7 bill aside. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 1429, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 2707-A, an 10 act to amend the Public Health Law. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 13 bill aside. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present 15 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 16 Assembly Bill Number 5816-A, and substitute it 17 for the identical Third Reading Calendar 1430. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 19 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 1430, by member of the Assembly Parment, 22 Assembly Print 5816-A, an act to amend the 23 County Law. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 25 a local fiscal impact note at the desk. Bill 6196 1 will be laid aside. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 1431, by Senator Present, Senate Print 3799-A, 4 an act authorizing the payment of certain school 5 building aid. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 7 will read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 15 is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1432, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 4467, an 18 act to amend the Public Service Law, in relation 19 to prohibiting the Public Service Commission. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 21 will read the last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 23 act shall take effect on the 60th day. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 25 roll. 6197 1 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 4 is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 1433, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 4707-A, an 7 act to amend the Social Services Law, in 8 relation to limiting. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sec... 10 SENATOR GOLD: What is that 11 number? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 1433. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 15 bill aside. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1434, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 4741, an 18 act to amend Chapter 554 of the Laws of 1996. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 24 roll. 25 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6198 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1435, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 4798-B, an 6 act to enact the Ithaca City School District. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside, 8 please. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 10 bill aside. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 1436, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 5301, an 13 act to legalize, ratify and confirm the acts and 14 proceedings of the board of education. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 16 a local fiscal impact note at the desk. 17 Secretary will read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, 24 just want to explain my vote. 25 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6199 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Gold, to explain his vote. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 4 President. 5 I'm going to support this bill by 6 Senator Larkin which deals with legalizing and 7 ratifying acts for a community which I found out 8 in the Rules Committee is in his district, as I 9 will also support Senator Seward's bill for 10 Ithaca which I understand is in his district 11 and, of course, I've already voted for Senator 12 LaValle's bill dealing with Brookhaven, and 13 Senator Present's bill for the Forestville 14 Central School District, which is in his 15 district. 16 Vote me in the affirmative, 17 please. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Gold will be recorded in the affirmative. 20 Announce the results. 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 23 is passed. 24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 25 1437, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 5435, an 6200 1 act to amend the Family Court Act, in relation 2 to violations. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 5 bill aside. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1438, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5522, an 8 act to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law, 9 in relation to requiring. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 13 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 1439, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 5579, an 22 act authorize the City School District of the 23 city of Hudson. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 25 will read the last section. 6201 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Gold, to explain his vote. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. I 10 spoke to the Senator involved, and I'm pleased 11 to support Senator Saland's effort to help the 12 city of Hudson which is in his district. 13 Vote me yes. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Gold will be recorded in the affirmative. 16 Announce the results. 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 Senator Skelos, that completes 21 the reading of the -- the non-controversial 22 reading of Supplemental Calendar 59-A. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 24 if we could read the supplemental calendar now, 25 controversial. 6202 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 2 will read the controversial calendar, 3 Supplemental Calendar 59-A commencing with 4 Calendar Number 1380, by Senator Goodman. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 1380, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 430-A, an 7 act to amend the Education Law. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Bill is 9 before the house. Secretary will read the last 10 section. 11 SENATOR GOODMAN: One moment, Mr. 12 President. Is that Senate Number 13 -- lay it 13 aside temporarily, please. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 15 bill aside temporarily. 16 Secretary will continue to road. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 1400, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 751, an 19 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Volker, an explanation of Calendar Number 1400 23 has been requested by Senator Paterson. 24 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 25 this bill which actually was introduced back in 6203 1 January, was really introduced in the last 2 session, first introduced, I believe in 1994, 3 and the reason that's significant is that the 4 bill was drafted by my former counsel, Ken 5 Connolly, who is -- who is now counsel to DCJS 6 and in conjunction with Ted Hallman, who is 7 deputy commissioner there, but anyways, so I 8 don't take any real credit for this bill, but 9 anyway what this bill does is it is a -- it is 10 very, very close, in fact, it is based on the 11 Kansas law on violent felony or violent felony 12 predators and -- sexual predators, I'm sorry, 13 and the reason it's here today is because the 14 Supreme Court just ruled, and the announcement 15 was made Monday at noon -- shows you how speedy 16 we are here in New York these days -- that the 17 Supreme Court of the United States by a five to 18 four decision had approved a process for 19 retaining violent sexual predators after their 20 term of imprisonment has been -- has been 21 ceased, and it sets a process up which mirrors 22 the process in Kansas that says that a D.A. must 23 be notified within 90 days of the release of 24 that person. There is a process whereby a 25 psychiatrist would review the person, examine 6204 1 the person. The D. A. then would have the 2 option to proceed to put that person before a 3 jury, and a decision would be made as far as 4 that person's retention. 5 Two things I'd like to point out 6 here. One, under the Kansas statute, the -- the 7 commitment does not have to be made beyond a 8 reasonable doubt. In this bill, we say that it 9 -- if a jury is to decide that this person is 10 to be kept in a secure mental hygiene facility, 11 it has to be done beyond a reasonable doubt. 12 My counsel has been checking into 13 this. We actually go farther, as I say, than 14 the Supreme Court has actually allowed, that is 15 farther meaning we put more protections in. 16 Just so that that's aware. 17 Secondly, let me say that there 18 was an editorial today, and I want to talk about 19 it up front, that -- in the local newspaper that 20 said, the state Constitution prohibits 21 government from locking up citizens beyond the 22 term of the legal incarceration, so forth. 23 Obviously they got that from some defense 24 attorney, and I understand. We read the 25 Constitution. There is no such provision in the 6205 1 Constitution. Not only is there no such 2 provision in the Constitution, there have been 3 Court of Appeals cases, in fact, that allow the 4 reverse. There is nothing that we can find in 5 the last five years that, in effect, would 6 supersede or would bar this kind of a Supreme 7 Court decision. 8 So we believe that this book - 9 this bill will stand up to constitutionality. 10 Now, obviously the question is as to whether you 11 want to do this. Senator Padavan informs me 12 that the process is similar to the process for 13 people with mental disease, and he's had a bill 14 for years for criminally -- for guilty but 15 mentally ill, which I've been a co-sponsor on. 16 The process is somewhat similar. 17 Let me just finish by saying, and I won't -- I 18 mean I could describe the entire process all the 19 way down, but it -- it is a very detailed and 20 careful process. In fact, I don't have to - 21 I'm not going to, but it is a very detailed 22 process of how this person would be -- the 23 decision would be made whether this person would 24 be freed or kept in. 25 Remember, this is only for 6206 1 violent sexual predators, not for any other 2 people that involved in violence. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Waldon, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR WALDON: Would the 6 gentleman yield to a question? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Paterson has the floor, Senator Waldon. I have 9 a list going on. 10 Senator Paterson. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: I will allow 12 Senator Waldon to go in front of me. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You're 14 willing to yield? Senator Paterson passes. 15 Senator Waldon. 16 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 17 much, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator 18 Paterson. 19 Senator Volker, you are familiar 20 with ex post facto laws, are you not? 21 SENATOR VOLKER: I'm sorry. I'm 22 what? 23 SENATOR WALDON: You're familiar 24 with ex post facto laws, are you not? 25 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly. 6207 1 SENATOR WALDON: Could this be 2 characterized as an anticipatory cousin of the 3 ex post facto law because the person here hasn't 4 done anything, according -- as I understand your 5 proposal, according to the law, the person has 6 served the sentence to its fullest in regard to 7 the crime committed and what this does is say, 8 Wait a minute. We're not so sure that you can 9 go back out into society. So we're going to 10 hold a special hearing in anticipation of the 11 possibility that you might commit again what you 12 have been committing in the past, we're going to 13 create a mechanism to hold you. Is that true? 14 SENATOR VOLKER: Well, first of 15 all, let's -- the answer is no. It is not an ex 16 post facto law and you say well, Senator, how 17 can you say that? 18 SENATOR WALDON: I said a cousin. 19 SENATOR VOLKER: It may be a 20 cousin of, except that the Supreme Court says 21 that cousin is legal because the Supreme Court 22 of the United States has specifically ruled that 23 this is not an ex post facto statute, meaning 24 that this -- the Kansas statute was not ex post 25 facto and, therefore, since this is patterned 6208 1 after the Kansas statute, that this is not an ex 2 post facto law because this is a civil 3 commitment. This is not a criminal commitment. 4 In other words, this is not an extension of the 5 criminal -- the criminal sanction. This is a 6 civil commitment based on the ability of society 7 to protect itself and what the decision says is 8 -- and there have been several decisions, by 9 the way, not just this decision, although 10 admittedly this is probably the most extensive 11 in this area -- that say that the ability of 12 society to protect itself supersedes a lot of 13 the normal, quote-unquote, protections for 14 individuals and particularly in this area of 15 sexual predators -- and we have the decision 16 here, by the way, from the Supreme Court -- and 17 it mirrors a lot of the thoughts that have been 18 discussed on the floor of this house as regards 19 the dangers of people who are sexual predators 20 and whether they can be cured and the treatment 21 that's necessary, and keep in mind that if a 22 person is found under this statute to be 23 somebody who should be kept -- they wouldn't be 24 kept in prison. They would be kept in a secure 25 mental facility and if you follow the tracking 6209 1 of the bill, they would be checked periodically 2 to make sure that they're not a danger to 3 themselves, to society, whatever. If they're 4 found not to be, then they can be released but 5 until that time, they have to stay in a secure 6 mental health facility. 7 SENATOR WALDON: Would the 8 gentleman continue to yield, Mr. President? 9 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Senator continues to yield. 12 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Volker, 13 I heard what you said and then I looked at the 14 note on the bill and it says "An act to amend 15 the Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to 16 retention of sexually violent predators" which 17 causes me to question the fact that it is a 18 civil procedure which would retain them, but let 19 me ask this question. 20 In the history of our nation, to 21 your personal knowledge or to your counsel's 22 knowledge, have we ever had a proviso where 23 someone who has in the past committed criminal 24 acts will not be held beyond the time that they 25 have paid their debt to society on a maneuver of 6210 1 this type? 2 SENATOR VOLKER: The answer to 3 that is yes. If a person who is in a prison is 4 found at the time that he or she is proposed to 5 be released, is found to be insane, and on 6 several occasions I guess it has happened. It 7 is rare, but it has happened on several 8 occasions, where that person would be a threat 9 to himself or to society, that person would then 10 be kept not in a prison but in a mental health 11 facility. 12 Now, in the old days that would 13 have meant places like Dannemora, for instance, 14 for the criminally insane. Since we've had a 15 ruling here in this state that we can't keep 16 mentally deficient people or mentally diseased 17 people in the prison system, we have to keep 18 them on the mental health side. 19 So, therefore, in compliance with 20 that, that's why we talk about a secure mental 21 facility. So there have been people who have 22 been kept after their term not because of a 23 criminal sanction but because of civil 24 commitment and of the -- the potential danger to 25 society. 6211 1 SENATOR WALDON: Would the 2 gentleman continue to yield, Mr. President? 3 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 5 Senator continues to yield. 6 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, were 7 there any public hearings conducted regarding 8 your proposal which would have allowed the 9 Office of Mental Health and its commissioner or 10 the Department of Correctional Services and its 11 commissioner or the Office of Mental Retardation 12 and its commissioner or community organizations 13 and/or organizations which have a specialty in 14 this area, the Defenders Association, Legal Aid 15 or whatever to come before you or your committee 16 and indicate to you their reservations, their 17 support, their ideas in regard to this dramatic 18 and drastic change in public policy vis-a-vis 19 the laws of the state of New York before you 20 submitted this proposal? 21 SENATOR VOLKER: Before we 22 submitted the proposal, there have been -- to my 23 knowledge, there have been a lot of public 24 hearings and discussions on the issue. Frank - 25 Senator Padavan has had over the years 6212 1 innumerable hearings on the issue of guilty but 2 mentally ill and on this entire issue of mental 3 illness, and we have had -- we have had hearings 4 over the years on sexual predator legislation. 5 On this specific bill, no, and 6 keep in mind -- the reason, I guess, is although 7 this issue has, you know, gone to the forefront, 8 until this Supreme Court decision just the other 9 day, it was the -- obviously we were reluctant 10 to move because we wanted to feel that we were 11 on totally solid ground before we were able to 12 move. 13 Although there have been no 14 hearings on this bill, it seems to me this is 15 such a serious issue, the issue of violent 16 sexual predators and just recently in Senator 17 Maziarz' district an issue came up where a 18 person was released on parole and that became 19 one of the -- a huge problem. It just seems as 20 if -- that this is an issue that needs to be 21 dealt with as quickly as possible. We know, 22 obviously, defense attorneys are going to oppose 23 it, as I think it's to be expected. It is an 24 issue, I think, that should be dealt with and 25 that's why it's on the floor today. 6213 1 SENATOR WALDON: Would the 2 gentleman continue to yield? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Volker, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Senator continues to yield. 8 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, I heard 9 what you said in regard to hearings by Senator 10 Padavan and yourself and others perhaps amongst 11 our body some time ago, but this decision was 12 very recent and you are moving forward with the 13 proposal without the most recent information 14 from the state agencies which should have a say 15 about this. 16 Furthermore, it appears from what 17 you've said that you're moving forward without 18 the benefit of the best minds in the state to 19 give you their feelings and suggestions and 20 intelligence on this issue. You don't in any 21 way feel that this move is premature without the 22 benefit of all of these experts who could have 23 indicated some considerations for you? 24 SENATOR VOLKER: I certainly - 25 and I -- I say very humbly, I am not -- I don't 6214 1 profess to be one of those acknowledged 2 experts. I like to think that some of the 3 people that have worked for me have some 4 expertise in this area and I've discussed this 5 for -- at some point -- at different points with 6 a lot of people that are involved in the various 7 areas. It's not as if this is something that 8 has been totally not discussed over the last 9 three to four years. In fact, this bill, by the 10 way, was in the Rules Committee, I think either 11 two years ago or a year ago. It was thoroughly 12 discussed and frankly, because of -- I pulled 13 the bill back because of the fact that there was 14 a lot of objections to the fact as to whether 15 the Supreme Court of the United States, what the 16 ruling would be, that there would probably be an 17 adverse ruling, and so forth, and so on, and 18 rather than, in an issue of this sensitivity, 19 move the bill at that point without any specific 20 grounds to say that -- I could say that it would 21 be upheld constitutionally -- since it was in 22 litigation at the time, we decided to hold back 23 on it. 24 So the answer to your question is 25 that this is something that has been discussed 6215 1 on and off for a long period of time. I don't 2 think it really is precipitous. Certainly we're 3 going to continue to speak to some people about 4 this, but I think it's something that really 5 should be dealt with quickly and get this whole 6 process moving. 7 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, 8 would the gentleman yield again? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Volker, do you continue to yield again? 11 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 Senator continues to yield. 14 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 15 President. Thank you, Senator Volker. 16 Senator Volker, you said earlier 17 we have precedent for this procedure, those who 18 are found to be mentally insane and, therefore, 19 from places historically in the state like 20 Matteawan, Dannemora, et cetera, when they are 21 about to be released, they can be held over, or 22 at least historically were held over because 23 they were adjudged to be mentally insane, but I 24 don't see anything in 1400 which says that these 25 people are first found mentally insane and then 6216 1 held. It is my understanding that that is not 2 the case, and so let me ask you the question 3 again. 4 Is this absolutely new and 5 precedent setting procedure by our state and 6 from a historical sense, is there not a 7 precedent to do this? 8 SENATOR VOLKER: Well, let me 9 say, first of all -- and as Senator Padavan just 10 mentioned to me, that these types of people are 11 sent to Mid-Hudson, but if they would be 12 declared to be mentally incompetent, they 13 shouldn't be in a prison to start with. I mean, 14 so, yeah, it is different and it would be 15 different than the issue of a competency 16 precedent. If they were mentally incompetent, 17 then they wouldn't be in the prison to start 18 with and they would have to go to Mid-Hudson or 19 whatever it was anyways. 20 What we're doing here is coming 21 short of that to -- in dealing with violent 22 sexual predators which the Supreme Court of the 23 United States has said -- and a number of 24 courts, by the way, not just the Supreme Court, 25 but obviously we're using the highest authority 6217 1 now -- have said that this type of action, these 2 types of people should be taken in a different 3 context from normal violent criminals and that 4 since we -- it's acknowledged by some of the 5 best experts in the field -- are not able to 6 deal with these people psychologically and 7 emotionally, are not able to deal with them in 8 the same way, that what we are trying to do is 9 set up a process here. You can call this 10 process unique -- and I guess it is unique. 11 It's a process related to processes that we have 12 had for years, but it is a unique process in 13 this category and we are setting up, in effect, 14 a special category of people who, in fact, by 15 their crimes, have set themselves up into a 16 special category for special attention and that 17 special attention is that they will be reviewed 18 at the time they're about to be released to make 19 sure that they can function in society without 20 creating havoc in society. 21 SENATOR WALDON: Will the 22 gentleman yield again, Mr. President? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Volker, do you continue to yield? 25 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 6218 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Senator continues to yield. 3 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 4 President. 5 Senator Volker, have you ever 6 been to Green Haven prison? 7 SENATOR VOLKER: Have I even been 8 to what? 9 SENATOR WALDON: To Green Haven. 10 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes, I have. I 11 haven't been there recently but I was there a 12 few years ago, yes. 13 SENATOR WALDON: When I was there 14 last, they had a section of the prison which 15 housed primarily sexual offenders and they had a 16 program of support systems to try to help these 17 people in terms of their propensity to act out 18 in a deviant sense. 19 To your knowledge, is there any 20 history in New York State, any history in New 21 York State of any success in treating those who 22 are sexual predators, if you will? 23 SENATOR VOLKER: I think in all 24 honesty -- and I think it -- remember, that this 25 whole area, the attention to this area is 6219 1 something fairly new. I mean, obviously sexual 2 predators are not new but the violence and the 3 amount of violence that has occurred by these 4 individuals and the numbers of victims have 5 escalated over the last few years. 6 I would have to say I think there 7 has been some success, but I think the general 8 consensus is that it's been extremely limited 9 and that's the reason that we are attempting in 10 this bill to set up what amounts to an 11 additional process to try to make sure that 12 these individuals do not create continued havoc 13 in society. 14 I want you to keep in mind that 15 we have a forensic center at Gowanda. I have 16 been to that a number of times, which is part of 17 the prison system. I just talked to 18 Commissioner Goord about that last night when we 19 had a chat about this bill because one of the 20 options in looking at the decision, you could 21 probably try to push it and say maybe that a 22 separate prison facility could be acceptable but 23 in reading literally the decision, we believe 24 that a mental health facility is really the best 25 option, the best constitutionally and probably 6220 1 the best in any case and that's why the bill 2 envisions mental health and we -- so that's why 3 it envisions someone going to mental health 4 rather than a prison psychiatric facility. 5 SENATOR WALDON: On the bill, Mr. 6 President. 7 Thank you, Senator. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Waldon, on the bill. 10 SENATOR WALDON: I'm really torn 11 on this issue. No one wants to put back into 12 society or to be responsible for the placement 13 back in society of someone who's going to create 14 such severe trauma as those who we characterize 15 because of what they do as sexual predators, but 16 my fear is that we are creating a precedent, 17 even though sanctioned, unfortunately by the 18 Supreme Court, which is not always right but in 19 this nation of laws, when they make a statement, 20 it has great and pervasive impact. 21 When we are about to say what you 22 may do down the road we'll hold you for now, is 23 unprecedented historically in this nation. It 24 is unprecedented, and my fear is who will be 25 told you are the one who we anticipate will do 6221 1 the wrong if we should let you out? 2 Will it get back to a situation 3 similar to what has happened with certain people 4 in our society in regard to the death penalty, 5 when those who are of color are those who have 6 most often been executed? I would hope not. 7 When those who are poor are those who are most 8 often executed? I would hope not. When those 9 who commit crime, black against white, are most 10 often executed? I would hope not. But my fear 11 is that historically this nation has proven that 12 that is the case. 13 This is not something that Al 14 Waldon dreamed up, that I created in the ether. 15 Historically this nation has applied its 16 criminal justice laws in a racist fashion, and I 17 sincerely hope that this will not happen 18 regarding this particular proposal. 19 I'll make my decision after I've 20 heard all of my colleagues speak, but I can tell 21 you truthfully that this is tearing at my 22 innards as to what I should do which will be 23 right and for the greater good of the society. 24 Thank you, Mr. President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6222 1 Abate. 2 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. Would 3 Senator Volker yield to a question? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Volker, do you yield to a question from Senator 6 Abate? The Senator yields. 7 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. I 8 understand clearly and the Supreme Court talked 9 about the balance between protecting society 10 against sexual predators which we know will 11 commit similar crimes in the future and the 12 balance that must be rendered in terms of 13 providing procedural due process safeguards to 14 ensure the right and appropriate people are kept 15 detained. 16 One of my concerns is what would 17 be the standard that would be set? Is it beyond 18 a reasonable doubt? Is it clear and convincing 19 evidence? 20 SENATOR VOLKER: The answer is 21 beyond a reasonable doubt. 22 SENATOR ABATE: It would be 23 beyond a reasonable doubt. 24 SENATOR VOLKER: Yeah. In fact, 25 I mentioned that -- and that's a point. We 6223 1 checked -- and we have the decision here and the 2 Kansas statute, as I understand it, their civil 3 commitment, we think is the same as it is here. 4 A civil commitment here is not beyond a 5 reasonable doubt, as you know. 6 SENATOR ABATE: It's clear and 7 convincing evidence. 8 SENATOR VOLKER: It's clear and 9 convincing. What we have done here -- and I 10 remember that's part of it. I do remember when 11 we talked about this way back when was that we 12 could have allowed the civil commitment, the 13 jury trial to be clear and convincing because it 14 appears under the decisions that we could do 15 that but we did not want to do that because we 16 felt that this is something severe enough and 17 restricting enough that it should be beyond a 18 reasonable doubt. So clearly at every step of 19 the way, the decision to keep a person in a 20 mental facility after their term has to be 21 beyond a reasonable doubt. 22 SENATOR ABATE: Would Senator 23 Volker continue to yield, Mr. President? 24 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6224 1 Senator continues to yield. 2 SENATOR ABATE: I'm very pleased 3 that it's the higher standard. It's my 4 understanding right now in a civil commitment if 5 an individual is shown to be a danger to 6 themselves or others, upon a showing of clear 7 and convincing evidence to that fact, they can 8 be detained indefinitely - 9 SENATOR VOLKER: That's exactly 10 right. 11 SENATOR ABATE: -- with a 12 periodic review. 13 SENATOR VOLKER: You're right. 14 SENATOR ABATE: What would be - 15 while we have established what the standard is 16 beyond a reasonable doubt, what would have to be 17 shown and to whom? Who would preside over this 18 matter? 19 SENATOR VOLKER: Well, the notice 20 goes to the D.A. The psychiatric exam has to be 21 held. The issue then would go to a court and 22 the - 23 SENATOR ABATE: Would it go to 24 the sentencing judge? Who would hear this 25 case? 6225 1 SENATOR VOLKER: No. I think it 2 would be probably the judge in the area where 3 the person was incarcerated, I would think. We 4 don't specify that but traditionally if you have 5 somebody who is about to be released, the judge 6 that would hear it would be -- for instance, if 7 it's Attica, it would be in the Wyoming County 8 Court. It could be in Erie because it's a 9 judicial district but wherever the area is, the 10 decision then, the actual decision, assuming 11 that the D.A. decides to move and the evaluation 12 is set -- the D.A., by the way, says "may". 13 Well, the reason for that is if the psychiatric 14 decision -- evaluation says that this person is 15 not a problem, he can then withdraw it and then, 16 as I understand it, the person could be 17 released. Otherwise he could move ahead. The 18 judge would order a jury impanelled and they 19 will have a jury trial on the issue of whether 20 that person should be retained as a civil 21 commitment. 22 SENATOR ABATE: So not only is 23 the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. 24 The decision would be unless it was waived by 25 the defendant, the defendant would be entitled 6226 1 to a jury trial in this case. 2 SENATOR VOLKER: Absolutely. 3 SENATOR ABATE: And what would 4 the district attorney have to demonstrate? What 5 would he or she have to prove beyond a 6 reasonable doubt? 7 SENATOR VOLKER: He would have to 8 show that he was convicted, number one, of a 9 violent -- violent felony offense -- sexual 10 violent -- that he was a violent predator, in 11 effect, a violent sexual offense and that he 12 suffers from a mental illness or deficiency 13 which is defined in the bill and, therefore, 14 that he should be -- I'm listening as I'm 15 talking here -- that he would have to find out 16 that he had a disease or defect that would keep 17 -- that would possibly allow him to continue to 18 be, in effect, a danger to himself or to others; 19 in other words, that he could still continue to 20 prey on society. 21 SENATOR ABATE: My understanding 22 is they would have to demonstrate that in the 23 past, the instant crime which the person is 24 doing time for, was for a violent sex offense. 25 SENATOR VOLKER: Violent sexual 6227 1 offense, yep. 2 SENATOR ABATE: That there was a 3 likelihood or predisposition to commit these 4 crimes in the future and is there a third 5 criteria that the individual is dangerous to 6 themselves and others if released? 7 SENATOR VOLKER: I use that as a 8 -- in general, that's it. That's part of the 9 -- in fact, I think in the data, the judge 10 mentions that, in effect, but what you just 11 described correctly -- specifically is what must 12 be determined. 13 SENATOR ABATE: The -- my last 14 question is the dissenting opinion, while I have 15 not read it completely, I've just - 16 unfortunately I only read press clips of a 17 synopsis of the four dissenting judges. They 18 were not totally uncomfortable with the 19 majority's decision except for two points. 20 SENATOR VOLKER: M-m h-m-m. 21 SENATOR ABATE: And I need 22 clarification about those points. Would this 23 bill be applied retroactively? Clarence Thomas 24 talks in the majority opinion that it would not 25 be applied retroactively, and I think there are 6228 1 some constitutional issues raised if we apply 2 retroactively and not just prospectively. 3 SENATOR VOLKER: Yeah, I think 4 the issue of retroactivity is a fascinating 5 issue and I think -- what does retroactivity 6 mean? Does it mean somebody who is actually now 7 in prison or -- I think what maybe they were 8 concerned about is re-evaluating people who are 9 presently about to be released, for instance. 10 SENATOR ABATE: I think they're 11 talking about pre-plea, when someone pleads 12 to - 13 SENATOR VOLKER: I was going to 14 say or already released, and I think what the 15 judges are concerned about is you can't bring 16 people back, and I think that may have been one 17 of the issues that was being -- I think Thomas 18 pretty clearly was saying you can't do that. In 19 other words, these are all people that are - 20 this is going to be in the future once this 21 statute is established. 22 Now, does this mean that you have 23 to wait for new crimes and new people to 24 actually be sentenced and wait until the end? I 25 don't think so, and I think -- although the 6229 1 Minority may have worried about that 2 dissenting. I think it's envisioned here that 3 people who are presently incarcerated, who have 4 presently committed violent felony offenses and 5 after this bill -- or assuming this bill became 6 law and was signed by the judge after November 7 1st, that when they came up for their release, 8 then the -- this statute would be applied and, 9 therefore, they could be -- the process would 10 begin at that point but not for people, for 11 instance, who are already released or before 12 that time. 13 SENATOR ABATE: Well, Senator 14 Volker, perhaps we can just - 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Abate, are you asking Senator Volker to yield to 17 another question? 18 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, I am. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I have 20 been rather limited in hoping that would 21 expedite the process here but it appears not to 22 have. So we'll have to go back so we can 23 maintain some sort of semblance of control in 24 this chamber anyway. 25 Senator Volker, do you continue 6230 1 to yield? 2 SENATOR VOLKER: I certainly do. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Senator continues to yield. 5 SENATOR ABATE: This bill will 6 probably pass today, Senator Volker, but I hope 7 you would look at the retroactivity issue 8 because I'm not sure this bill will pass 9 constitutional muster, if it is done 10 retroactively and I'm talking retroactively, 11 before someone pleads guilty to a crime and what 12 I'm saying is someone pleads guilty to a crime 13 knowing that not only will they have to do it - 14 the time in terms of the instant crime but if 15 they're held to -- and they're convicted later, 16 they may not be released even after they do 17 their time, and I think that's an issue that's 18 worth doing some legal research on. 19 SENATOR VOLKER: Let me just say, 20 we will do that research, all right, but it was 21 just pointed out to me, the Hendrick case, the 22 decision was that this fellow was in that 23 position and the decision says that they can't 24 hold him and they can do the process. So we 25 assume that that is a pretty good indication. 6231 1 SENATOR ABATE: All right. 2 Okay. 3 SENATOR VOLKER: And so we 4 certainly will do research, by the way. You can 5 be sure of that. 6 SENATOR ABATE: And then the 7 other issue, if you would continue to yield, for 8 my last question. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Volker, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 Senator yields. 14 SENATOR ABATE: The other issue 15 raised by the four dissenting Supreme Court 16 judges is that when you civilly commit someone 17 because of their mental abnormality in this case 18 -- I don't know if they found the person 19 mentally ill but they call it a mental 20 abnormality - 21 SENATOR VOLKER: Yeah. 22 SENATOR ABATE: -- and you don't 23 have mandatory treatment, then the civil 24 commitment becomes too punitive and they raise 25 some other constitutional objections. Would you 6232 1 consider, with these civil commitments, along 2 with it mandatory treatment? 3 SENATOR VOLKER: Absolutely. 4 SENATOR ABATE: And would you 5 consider amending this bill to reflect that? 6 SENATOR VOLKER: Let me just say 7 to you, we don't have to because the Mental 8 Hygiene Law, when you commit someone, must admit 9 -- treatment is absolutely mandatory under the 10 present law. We'll certainly look at that but 11 -- and Senator Padavan just mentioned that to 12 me. When you commit someone to a mental health 13 facility for a specific malady under the Mental 14 Hygiene Law, my recollection is you must treat 15 them, and I see Senator Leichter shaking his 16 head but that's the law already and we don't 17 have to put it in the statute because that's the 18 reason why, in fact, you put people in mental 19 institutions and if, by the way, the state 20 wouldn't do that, then obviously the defense 21 attorney could bring that up in the re 22 evaluation which, according to this bill, has to 23 be done on a regular basis, and I think it would 24 mean that that person would be released. 25 SENATOR ABATE: Unfortunately I 6233 1 don't have the bill before me, that's why I'm 2 saying these many questions. So it's your 3 understanding -- but if it's not clear in terms 4 of the exact language of the bill, would you 5 consider making it very clear in the bill that 6 this -- what's required is mandatory treatment, 7 a possible commitment. 8 SENATOR VOLKER: It's already in 9 the Mental Health Law but we would certainly 10 consider it, but I really don't think it's a 11 problem but we will certainly look at it. 12 SENATOR ABATE: Are they being 13 detained under the Mental Health Law in this 14 bill? 15 SENATOR VOLKER: Pardon me? 16 SENATOR ABATE: Are they being 17 detained in the Mental Health Law in this bill? 18 SENATOR VOLKER: Well, they'll be 19 committed to the Commissioner of Mental Health 20 and under the Mental Health Law, when you send 21 people to mental health, they must treat them. 22 SENATOR ABATE: The last question 23 -- would you please continue to yield? 24 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6234 1 Senator continues to yield. 2 SENATOR ABATE: And how often 3 would the periodic review be and -- once someone 4 is civilly committed and who would do that 5 review and would it come back before a court and 6 under what circumstances would it return to a 7 court? 8 SENATOR VOLKER: You have the - 9 it occurs at least once a year, and I think 10 there's a -- it seemed to me there was -- yeah, 11 once a year, but it seemed to me there's a 12 process -- a defense attorney could bring an 13 action, if I'm not mistaken, if I remember 14 right, if he has, for instance, an examination 15 that shows the person is well and cured, and so 16 forth, could bring an action even sooner to have 17 that person released, but once every year there 18 must be a re-evaluation. 19 SENATOR ABATE: Okay. Thank 20 you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Gold. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 24 President. 25 Would Senator Volker yield to a 6235 1 question? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Volker, do you yield to Senator Gold? The 4 Senator yields. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Volker, 6 while this bill, on its face is getting some 7 people concerned -- and I listened to Senator 8 Abate and Senator Waldon -- if you really 9 undress this bill, it seems to me that it's not 10 that much different than existing law. It seems 11 to me that -- and please answer this for me. It 12 seems to me that under existing law, if these 13 people were not in jail convicted of crimes but 14 were out in the street and they had an illness 15 which this bill mandates and they were a danger, 16 they could be picked up. They could be brought 17 before a Supreme Court judge, have a trial and 18 put in jail. Is that not correct? 19 SENATOR VOLKER: Not the jail, 20 committed. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Committed. I'm 22 sorry. 23 SENATOR VOLKER: To a mental 24 institution. You're absolutely right. 25 SENATOR GOLD: On the bill, Mr. 6236 1 President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Gold, on the bill. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. I for one 5 admire Senator Abate and Senator Waldon and 6 their sensitivity in these issues, and I hope I 7 am sensitive too, but I really do believe that 8 this bill, for all of its window dressing, 9 doesn't do too much to change existing law. 10 When I heard about it in the 11 Committee, my first inclination was, What are we 12 doing? People get convicted. You can sentence 13 them for long periods of time. You make them 14 serve every single day, don't give them parole 15 and the case is over. Why should they now not 16 be able to go out on the street, but the fact is 17 that they can go out on the street even under 18 this bill if they are not proven to have a 19 mental illness because this bill requires that. 20 If, in fact, they do have a 21 mental illness, then under existing law today 22 without this bill, someone could pick them up, 23 hold a hearing and have them committed. 24 So, Senator Volker, I'm going to 25 support it. I understand the motivation and I 6237 1 think it's unfair when you throw into debate 2 that it was Ken Connolly that drafted it because 3 many of us still revere him but I'm going to 4 support the bill. I don't see a major change. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Dollinger. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would the 8 sponsor yield to some questions, Mr. President? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Volker, do you yield to some questions from 11 Senator Dollinger? 12 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Senator yields. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 16 Mr. President. 17 Senator Volker, I'm not sure 18 whether this is, as Senator Gold characterizes 19 it, some permutation of Criminal Law or whether 20 this is a very tough, tough bill. One thing 21 I'll admit is this is a very tough, tough 22 problem and I appreciate it being addressed. 23 Let me take, if I could, three or 24 four minutes, again with the indulgence of the 25 President, to just ask you some technical 6238 1 questions about the bill. 2 Who gives the notice? 3 SENATOR VOLKER: The - 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And again, 5 just so you understand, Senator, I'm talking 6 about the notice - 7 SENATOR VOLKER: Let me give you 8 the process, as I understand it. 90 days before 9 the release of a person who is a violent sexual 10 predator, the prison has to -- the Correction 11 Department has to notify the local D.A., that is 12 the D.A. that sentenced the person or 13 participated in the case, that this person is 14 about to be released, that is, he's being 15 released in 90 days and then the D.A. then - 16 according to this then commences the process of 17 doing the evaluation of the person. The 18 notification, obviously, is to the inmate 19 because he has the right to an attorney. 20 There's language in here that allows -- and we 21 even have the language -- I don't want to say 22 death penalty language but it is, in a sense. 23 If you don't have the funds, which most of these 24 people obviously would not have, they have the 25 right to an assigned attorney and all that sort 6239 1 of thing and then that starts the process and 2 the evaluation. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 4 you, Mr. President, if Senator Volker will 5 continue to yield. 6 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: He 8 continues to yield. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I was just 10 concerned because I read the bill as carefully 11 as I can here in the last 20 minutes and it says 12 "notice shall be given" but he doesn't specify 13 on page 2, line 20, who gives the notice. So I 14 would just call that to your attention that, if 15 there's eventually some kind of cleanup bill or 16 there's a discussion with the Assembly - 17 SENATOR VOLKER: Well, let me 18 explain to you -- and we will certainly look at 19 that but when a person is in prison, all notices 20 come from the Correction Department as regards 21 that inmate. Now -- at least that's my 22 understanding and -- Senator. So that when you 23 say notice, we'll certainly look at that, but 24 because the prison is possessed with the 25 information as to when this person would be 6240 1 released, the prison would be the one who would 2 notify the D.A. and anybody else. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The reason 4 why I asked that question, Senator, is because I 5 know this is an inclusion of the Criminal 6 Procedure Law and I'm not sure whether in the 7 prior sections of the Criminal Procedure Law, 8 that there's a definition of the commissioner, 9 whether it means the Commissioner of Corrections 10 or the commissioner of some other entity. 11 SENATOR VOLKER: You want me to 12 answer that question, because I noticed that 13 right away. I saw the commissioner and I said 14 to J.R., "We got a little problem" and he said, 15 "No, we don't" and he showed by reference the 16 commissioner -- he referenced back the language 17 and the commissioner is -- in fact, we have it 18 right here -- the commissioner that's referred 19 to is -- "Commissioner means the state 20 Commissioner of Mental Health or the state 21 Commissioner of Mental Retardation and 22 Developmental Disabilities." 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. Again 24 through you, Mr. President, a second question. 25 I apologize. These are generally technical 6241 1 questions, and then I'll address the bill. 2 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The notice 4 goes from the Department of Corrections to the 5 district attorney. 6 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Did you give 8 consideration of the fact that the victim or the 9 victim's family should be notified as well, 10 simply to prevent the situation where the 11 district attorney gets the notice and something 12 happens and it doesn't trigger the proper 13 procedure. 14 SENATOR VOLKER: We -- you may be 15 right. That's something we'll look into. I 16 don't think we -- I just wondered whether the 17 present law would cover that but we will look at 18 it. Maybe it wouldn't cover it because this 19 isn't a -- the kind of release that was 20 anticipated at parole, and so forth, so that's 21 possible. We'll certainly look at that. That's 22 a good point. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Another point 24 that deals with the question of release, in the 25 definitions of release between, again, page 2, 6242 1 lines 24 through 32, it talks about release. 2 Are you talking about the final release without 3 any parole, without any conditions attached, 4 because it says here release -- and the reason 5 why it caught my mind, Senator, is because in 6 examples A and B, you talk about anticipated 7 release from total confinement and then in "C" 8 and "D", you talk about release of a defendant 9 and I'm not sure whether you're talking about 10 release back in the general population without 11 any probation monitoring or anything or - 12 SENATOR VOLKER: This is final 13 release we're talking about. The anticipation 14 that this person is going to be sent back into 15 the -- onto the streets without any kind of 16 supervision because we have a procedure now to 17 evaluate a person, for instance, who's on parole 18 and who is -- who is about to be paroled and so 19 what this envisions -- this is where this person 20 is to be released at the end of his term, 21 whatever it is, and is about to be sent back 22 onto the streets, period. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, I 24 would just -- Senator, if there's a discussion 25 with the Assembly about this bill, I would just 6243 1 suggest that you look at that definition of 2 release to make sure it conforms with that exact 3 same thing, because I was struck by the 4 difference of total confinement in "A" and "B" 5 and just total -- it doesn't mention confinement 6 at all in Section C and D, and I think some 7 language cleanup might be appropriate. 8 The third question, again through 9 you, Mr. President, is 45 days -- I understand 10 the way this works. Three months notice to the 11 district attorney, 45 days prior to the release 12 -- 45 days after the petition has been filed, 13 there has to be a trial. 14 I'd just ask you, Senator, is 15 that enough time to make this happen? I mean, I 16 can just envision, Senator, that the public 17 defender is hired or assistants of counsel, 18 immediately extensive discovery, EBTs and 19 experts on both sides to determine the course of 20 treatment, the way it works. Is 45 days 21 enough? 22 SENATOR VOLKER: The reason for 23 this, by the way, is really on the -- not for 24 the -- obviously the prosecution side or the 25 state side. This is for the person's side so 6244 1 that the process would be moved under -- what is 2 it 30.20, under the present confinement, the 3 hearing is, I think even less than that. It's 4 -- the idea -- I suppose -- and I think despite 5 the fact we say it must be held within 45 days. 6 Obviously we can look at that, but I think the 7 reason for that is to make sure that this person 8 is evaluated and that the process is moved along 9 as quickly as possible so that a determination 10 could be made so that this person, if he or she 11 is not -- because a lot of this is going to be 12 -- obviously is going to be the determination 13 of the psychiatrist. You know, I mean, this is 14 not as if we're doing technical legal kind of 15 stuff. This is really a question, either he is 16 or he isn't, if you know what I mean? Obviously 17 there's evidence to be presented and all that 18 sort of thing, but I think the answer to that is 19 that I suppose if he needs more time, no 20 question the judge would have the right because 21 this provision is designed to protect the person 22 him or herself. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I was just 24 concerned about whether the 45-day period was 25 accurate. 6245 1 Now, let me ask what I think is 2 maybe the critical constitutional question that 3 this poses. As I understand it, in the 4 determination section, Section 7 on page 3, the 5 district attorney has to prove beyond a 6 reasonable doubt two things. He has to prove - 7 he has to prove one thing, that is, he's a 8 sexually violent predator, but in order to do 9 that, he has to prove that he -- beyond a 10 reasonable doubt something that he's already 11 proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Isn't that 12 correct? 13 SENATOR VOLKER: No. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Because, as I 15 read it, what he says is -- on line 17, it says 16 the district attorney shall prove beyond a 17 reasonable doubt that the alleged sexual violent 18 act was sexually motivated and if the jury 19 determines that he's a sexually violent 20 predator, under the definition of sexually 21 violent predator, it says that he committed an 22 act, a violent felony offense. It's a sex 23 offense but that will have already been 24 determined in the trial years before. 25 Here's my concern, Senator. Do 6246 1 we set up a problem, if we require the jury that 2 is going to civilly confine this individual, to 3 redetermine the issue beyond a reasonable doubt 4 of whether the offense that he was originally 5 committed with was a sexually violent offense; 6 and the reason why I suggest that, Senator - 7 just sort of finish out the rest of my question 8 -- and maybe -- wouldn't it be acceptable if we 9 simply said assume he committed a sexually 10 violent offense and the only issue that has to 11 be proven beyond a reasonable doubt is the 12 second part of your test, that is, whether he 13 suffers from a mental illness that makes such 14 person likely to engage in predatory acts of 15 sexual violence, because here's my concern, 16 Senator. Again, I -- it's a little loud, a 17 little noisy, but I'll continue. 18 My concern is this. Is a jury, 19 the second jury that hears this civil 20 confinement, isn't there a danger that the 21 passion and power of the original defense, that 22 at least from my perspective, Senator, this 23 person who's petitioning the court, or even if 24 the district attorney is petitioning, he will 25 have no defense, he will have no ready way that 6247 1 he will ever be able to deny that he was 2 convicted of the underlying offense. We're 3 going to replay the whole crime a second time in 4 front of a jury. Isn't there a danger that the 5 jury hearing the civil confinement will actually 6 say he should have been more severely punished 7 for the first crime? 8 SENATOR VOLKER: Well, let me 9 just say so what? They can't -- they can't 10 resentence him, number one and number two, the 11 problem is this. The alternative is simply to 12 assume that the person is a sexually violent 13 predator. The problem with that is that we want 14 to give this person the maximum protections and, 15 therefore, the only way to give them the maximum 16 protections, I would think, would be to say that 17 you have to prove the two criteria beyond a 18 reasonable doubt and the first one is that you 19 have to show that he's a sexually -- that he was 20 a sexually violent predator and the second one, 21 that that person should be committed because of 22 mental abnormality or personality disorder, and 23 so forth, which is, in effect, the second 24 criteria. 25 I guess my problem is if you say, 6248 1 well, okay, maybe, how would you not prove that 2 the person was -- or how would you prove the 3 person was not a sexually violent predator? The 4 interesting thing is if he can prove he was not 5 a sexually violent predator, obviously he's 6 going to be released because he probably 7 shouldn't have been there in the first place. 8 Although I would point out to you, I admit it 9 would be difficult to do because the jury 10 already found him to be but it, in effect, gives 11 him the opportunity, if there is some way to do 12 that because this person is going to be held in 13 an unusual procedure -- obviously an unusual 14 procedure and, therefore, we want to give him or 15 her the maximum ability to present his case. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And again 17 through you, Mr. President. I appreciate 18 Senator Volker continuing to yield, but doesn't 19 that run into -- smack into the problem of the 20 double jeopardy clause? 21 SENATOR VOLKER: No. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That he's 23 going to be tried a second time by a jury that 24 will find beyond a reasonable doubt that he was 25 guilty of an offense that he was already 6249 1 convicted by a prior jury for the exact same 2 offense and my question to you, Senator, is 3 can't we serve the purpose of this bill? I'm 4 perhaps asking for a lesser test than what 5 you've put in the bill because I think that 6 there will be no dispute in any case that 7 Defendant A was found guilty. A court could 8 find just by taking judicial notice, We hereby 9 notice that there was a conviction entered, that 10 Tom Jones was found guilty of a sexually violent 11 offense in 1997. It's now the year 2010 and we 12 find that the predicate offense was established 13 by a prior jury or by a plea of guilty and that, 14 therefore, the offense he was charged with has 15 already been taken care of. The only issue that 16 this jury needs to resolve is an issue that has 17 never been resolved before, that doesn't trigger 18 the double jeopardy clause that says, is he 19 suffering from a mental illness that makes him 20 -- him or her likely to engage in predatory 21 acts of sexual violence and then I agree with 22 you, Senator. You built in a huge procedural 23 protection for him, which is you've got to prove 24 that fact beyond a reasonable doubt in order to 25 confine him, which I agree with you is the right 6250 1 standard. I'm just concerned that does this 2 whole statute run potentially afoul of the 3 double jeopardy clause because you're going to 4 retry the underlying case and I'm worried about 5 the spill-over prejudice to the second jury that 6 would say, We don't think he's necessarily 7 suffering from a debilitating illness that would 8 make him more likely but what he did the first 9 time was so outrageous, we think he should be 10 confined more. Isn't that a danger for that 11 jury? 12 SENATOR VOLKER: Number one, let 13 me just say to you that redoing that statute is 14 a little bit of a problem. This is the Kansas 15 statute and what we're doing here -- your 16 argument was argued, I believe in the courts and 17 the court came down on the other side. My 18 counsel here gave an interesting question - 19 gave an interesting response to that. He said, 20 what if the guy pled guilty or the woman pled 21 guilty initially to a violent sexual predator 22 offense and now that he's about to be confined, 23 the issue comes up and now he's able to present 24 evidence that he really -- although he pled 25 guilty, he may have been guilty of something 6251 1 else but maybe he wasn't the violent sexual 2 predator that was shown in the case. That's a 3 possibility, but the problem -- the bigger 4 problem with your argument is that this issue of 5 double jeopardy has already been decided by the 6 Supreme Court of the United States, specifically 7 in this case, and they said it's not and they 8 said that this procedure is the proper procedure 9 to use and they are actually saying this fellow 10 Hendricks, who was in Kansas, is going to have 11 to -- is obviously subject to this procedure - 12 has been subject to this procedure legally. So 13 that you can make the argument that we should 14 maybe make a different kind of procedure but the 15 problem is that the Supreme Court of the United 16 States said this is the correct procedure 17 already. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The Kansas 19 statute -- again through you, Mr. President. I 20 appreciate Senator Volker's continuing to 21 yield. The Kansas statute actually said that 22 the second jury would find beyond a reasonable 23 doubt whether the - 24 SENATOR VOLKER: No, no, 25 Senator. 6252 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. That's 2 right. It was a preponderance of the evidence. 3 SENATOR VOLKER: No, but we have 4 -- it's true, we have made it stronger but my 5 point is that we have -- it seems 6 incomprehensible to me that the Supreme Court of 7 the United States would say, Well, you did a 8 stronger -- you did a stronger statute here. So 9 we're going to throw it out because you're too 10 strong. I just don't think that's going to 11 happen. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, so I 13 understand it better, the Kansas statute 14 actually allowed the second jury to determine 15 the culpability of the defend... of the 16 petitioner or the person petitioned against, 17 allowed them to adjudicate the culpability after 18 it had already been resolved in a criminal trial 19 some time without violating - 20 SENATOR VOLKER: I understand it 21 was by clear and convincing evidence. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. You 23 hear my concern there. 24 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: May I just 6253 1 ask two other questions again through you, Mr. 2 President. 3 The confinement that this 4 prisoner would await -- strike that -- it 5 wouldn't be a prisoner. 6 SENATOR VOLKER: Mental health. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mental health 8 confinement. It would be in a mental health 9 institution? 10 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My question 12 is, because this is a type of confinement 13 designed to deter activity, is there any sense 14 that the confinement should be in the least 15 possible or least restrictive environment in 16 order to prevent the harm? 17 My concern is you're taking 18 someone and placing them in a general 19 population. 20 SENATOR VOLKER: No. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: You're 22 extending their confinement beyond what is 23 reasonable and necessary to deter the activity, 24 and my question is do you anticipate a least 25 restrictive environment to prevent the harm kind 6254 1 of confinement? 2 SENATOR VOLKER: At this point, 3 the facility that -- as Senator Padavan pointed 4 out to me, the major secure mental health 5 facility, I believe is at Mid-Hudson. I think 6 we have another one some place, but I think that 7 is the place where most of the people who are 8 considered to be sexual predators or serious, 9 serious people who are very serious mental 10 problems and are needed to be kept in a very 11 secure place, that's where at this point they 12 would be. 13 Now, one of the interesting 14 questions is we probably -- if this law -- if it 15 becomes law, and I think it eventually will, we 16 will probably develop a specific place for these 17 types of people and it would make, you know, 18 eminent sense. These people now are going 19 primarily to one place but once this becomes 20 law, then I'm sure mental hygiene would develop 21 a specific place separate from everybody else 22 for these people. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. I 24 think that's a good -- just a final question, 25 Mr. President, then I'll just address the bill 6255 1 briefly. 2 As I understand it, reading the 3 text of the bill, Senator Volker, the burden of 4 proof is always on the people to prove beyond a 5 reasonable doubt even if the petition is brought 6 by the confined individual? 7 SENATOR VOLKER: Exactly. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It's always 9 on them to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that 10 they are a sexually violent predator. 11 SENATOR VOLKER: Let me be honest 12 with you about this. I am not sure that is 13 specifically the Kansas -- I don't think it is 14 specifically the Kansas statute but we added 15 that in as some added protections for the 16 individual because this is such an unusual 17 procedure. So it's my understanding and my 18 recollection that the Kansas statute does not 19 necessarily go that far but we have gone that 20 far just to make sure that this person gets the 21 maximum rights that he can. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through you, 23 Mr. President. I'll just speak briefly on the 24 bill. Most of it highlights some of the 25 questions that I've raised. 6256 1 I think that if this does go to a 2 Conference Committee or discussions with the 3 Assembly, I'd just encourage you to look at the 4 notice issue, who gets the notice, who issues 5 the notice. I'd prefer that it go to some 6 victim or family of victims so that there's some 7 identification. That would eliminate the 8 possibility -- I think it just broadens the 9 knowledge of this release and of this whole 10 procedure. 11 I'm concerned about whether 45 12 days is enough time, but I agree with Senator 13 Volker that the 45 days are designed to protect 14 this person who is potentially facing 15 confinement. It's not going to be enough time. 16 It will probably be longer than that. I just 17 wouldn't want to be in a position where if for 18 some reason they failed to meet the 45-day 19 period, the guy walks, which I think is 20 something that we don't want to do. 21 I raised the issue of least 22 restrictive environment only because I think 23 Senator Volker is correct. We don't have a 24 facility that would accommodate individuals 25 under the statute at this time. I have some 6257 1 confidence that I think I share with Senator 2 Volker that we would develop an environment 3 which would not be a general prison environment, 4 which would not be a general mental health 5 confinement environment but nonetheless an 6 environment where the treatment issues that 7 Senator Abate talked about would perhaps be 8 streamlined and put on the table and used in a 9 rigorous manner. 10 I do think -- and this is where, 11 Senator Volker, I think you've probably gone to 12 all the extent that Kansas allows you. I still 13 have a reservation. I'm going to vote for this 14 bill, but I think you may unnecessarily run into 15 a double jeopardy problem by permitting the 16 second jury to retry the culpability of the 17 defendant beyond a reasonable doubt to the 18 underlying crime. I can imagine the situation 19 -- and, Senator Volker, I think it just would 20 be so unbelievable if someone who had either 21 pled guilty to an underlying offense and spent 22 20 years in jail for it or who had been 23 convicted and found 20 years later, would come 24 back, retry the case 20 years later when the 25 witnesses are gone, when nobody's there and 6258 1 somehow the second jury finds we find beyond a 2 reasonable doubt that he didn't do it, an 3 unbelievable circumstance. 4 What I would suggest -- and I'm 5 not so sure -- I understand that the Kansas 6 statute may require this, but I would just 7 suggest that you don't need to retry the 8 underlying case because that's what will create 9 a double jeopardy problem for this statute. 10 What I would suggest instead is 11 either by plea of guilty or by finding of beyond 12 a reasonable doubt by a prior jury the predicate 13 offense is established, the only issue that the 14 jury has to consider and, in fact, the danger of 15 allowing a jury to consider both factors is that 16 a jury could sit down and say, We don't think it 17 will ever happen again. We don't think he's 18 really a future risk but, boy, we think what he 19 did merits more punishment and, therefore, they 20 would find him guilty of the underlying offense 21 and guilty of being a predator with a mental 22 disease or illness, simply to punish him for the 23 first offense, and I think that may be, if you 24 run into a constitutional problem with this 25 bill, that's where you'll run into it. 6259 1 I think you could solve that and 2 achieve a better goal by simply assuming the 3 predicate offense, simply try the issue beyond a 4 reasonable doubt of whether they're a predator, 5 whether they're a fear to the future. Then you 6 get a jury that isn't tainted by the prior crime 7 and establishes that issue and you got a bill 8 that's constitutional. 9 I'm going to vote for it because 10 I think it's a step in the right direction, but 11 I caution you that I think you might have a 12 problem. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair 14 recognizes Senator Padavan. 15 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you, Mr. 16 President. 17 First, let me say that Senator 18 Volker ought to be congratulated for moving 19 quickly on this issue with regard to the Supreme 20 Court decision in providing the people of New 21 York State with a level of protection for this 22 category of mental illness that previously did 23 not exist to the extent we can now apply. 24 The point I would like to make is 25 just to build upon something that Senator Gold 6260 1 said earlier. In the late '70s and in mid-'80s, 2 this Legislature, this state, developed a whole 3 series of mechanisms and expanding upon previous 4 law dealing with involuntary commitment, 5 involuntary commitment which could take place if 6 the person was acquitted by reason of insanity, 7 found incompetent to stand trial and more 8 recently, could be involuntary committed if they 9 did not continue out-patient treatment, and that 10 is a pilot program currently underway in the 11 city of New York under the auspices of Bellevue. 12 This bill clearly articulates a 13 definition of mental illness involving activity 14 of a sexual predator. It defines it, which is 15 something clinicians and psychiatrists have 16 identified as a mental illness for years, for 17 years. 18 In answer to an earlier question, 19 hearings on this general subject were held all 20 over the state with forensic psychiatrists, 21 district attorneys, law enforcement, 22 professionals at all levels contributing. What 23 we have done and what Senator Volker has done 24 with this bill is provide a mechanism for 25 someone who is in prison or someone who is not 6261 1 in prison who's found incompetent to stand trial 2 but was a sexual predator, for placing that 3 person in a mental health facility. 4 Now, if you read the bill, there 5 are specific requirements incumbent upon the 6 state in these OMH facilities which exist today 7 but are transposed for this particular category, 8 such as the annual review, the requirement that 9 the commissioner initiate on behalf of the 10 individual in question an action for release if 11 in the judgment of the commissioner and his 12 psychiatrist that person has been cured of his 13 mental illness. All of that is in here and the 14 level of protections that we provide consistent 15 with our history in this subject area go far 16 beyond the mandate that the Supreme Court 17 allowed us to impose or the -- or the actions 18 that it allows us to impose. 19 So as was said earlier, if you 20 take the sexual predator phrase out of this and 21 its definition as a mental illness, what we are 22 doing here, in essence and, in fact, is exactly 23 what we're doing today in cases where people 24 have been found to be mentally deficient to the 25 extent that they are a danger to themselves or 6262 1 others and while not in a position either by 2 virtue of that incompetence, to stand trial or 3 by virtue of acquittal by reason of insanity, 4 not to be placed in a state prison but can be 5 placed in a mental health facility. That's the 6 law today. It serves us well, but even though 7 that is the law, the mental health information 8 services and all the other safeguards, including 9 the responsibility of the Attorney General to 10 deal with these individuals on a predetermined 11 periodic basis -- and in this bill it says no 12 less than one year. So every year this person 13 would come up for review. A psychiatrist would 14 evaluate him. They would make a determination 15 whether he's still mentally ill and then an 16 application would be made one way or the other. 17 So, Mr. President, I again say 18 that I think this bill is balanced. It's well 19 thought out. It's constitutional, obviously and 20 it will serve the people of this state in this 21 very narrow area properly. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Leichter. 24 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Mr. 25 President, if Senator Volker will yield. 6263 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Volker, do you yield to a question from Senator 3 Leichter? 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 5 Volker, I must say I have some serious questions 6 about your bill for two reasons: One is because 7 I really think, with all due respect to the fine 8 counsel who drafted it, that it was poorly 9 drafted and secondly -- and secondly, because I 10 think you're going into an area where really we 11 don't have any clear standards, any scientific 12 basis for some of the determinations that 13 underlie the bill, but let me first deal with 14 the drafting and deal with language that Senator 15 Dollinger sort of very, I think generously said, 16 well, this raises constitutional issues. I 17 think it just -- with all due respect, I think 18 it was just careless drafting, when on page 3 19 you left in -- you put in language -- and I'll 20 read it, line 17, "The district attorney must 21 prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the alleged 22 sexual violent act was sexually motivated" 23 because, Senator, first of all, we're not -- as 24 to one class of people covered by your bill - 25 that's people who have been convicted -- they 6264 1 either pled guilty or they've been convicted. 2 We're not dealing with an alleged act. We're 3 dealing with a sexually violent act, and I think 4 the reason that language is in there is because 5 people covered by your bill are not only those 6 who have been convicted but those who have ever 7 stood trial because they were mentally 8 incompetent and it's as to those that the 9 draftsman thought that it was necessary or 10 appropriate now to have a trial to determine if 11 they had committed the act, but it certainly 12 would make no sense. It would be totally 13 unworkable to require a retrial of people that 14 have already been convicted or pled guilty. In 15 most instances, these would occur many years 16 after. So constitutionally -- and the Kansas 17 decision did not require that you retry the 18 person. That doesn't make any sense. You've 19 just left that language in there and you meant 20 it to apply to a different category of persons 21 who are covered. I mean, it seems clear to me. 22 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, I don't 23 think it's clear at all. Senator -- in fact, 24 Senator, your thinking -- this has nothing to do 25 with people who have mental disease or defect. 6265 1 These are people that got convicted and, 2 Senator, I read this and it reads very logically 3 to me. I mean, it says that you've got to show 4 -- and you don't have a retrial. If you have, 5 for instance -- obviously there is all sorts of 6 evidence, if this person has been in jail all 7 this time, it's assumed that you can bring the 8 record in to show that this person was a violent 9 predator, a violent sexual predator. I don't - 10 I think that your -- what you're assuming 11 somehow is that there will be some full trial on 12 this issue. Nobody is saying there will be a 13 full trial on this unless the person who is the 14 violent sexual predator has some evidence that 15 possibly he couldn't raise at the trial, I 16 suppose, or something that's assumed he probably 17 won't be able to do, but what we're trying to do 18 is give him the maximum ability to make his 19 arguments at the time that he is going to be 20 confined. 21 I do not think this is bad 22 draftsmanship. I think it's rather logical 23 draftsmanship and I think that -- I suppose what 24 you could say is -- is what Senator Dollinger 25 said and that is leave that language out, and I 6266 1 think we would be in a little bit of a risk 2 because this process was approved by the Supreme 3 Court of the United States with that language in 4 there and it just seems to me except for one 5 thing, except we're talking about reasonable 6 doubt and that's true, and I don't know if it 7 was in the Kansas statute or not. We know it 8 wasn't in the commitment itself and I'm really 9 not sure that it -- that reasonable doubt was 10 the criteria but it certainly was in the Kansas 11 statute and since it's already been determined, 12 I find it a little hard to believe that we 13 should leave that language out of there. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President 15 -- I mean, Senator Volker, it's sort of strange 16 in one respect that you and I should be arguing, 17 where I'm saying you put in a provision in there 18 that is not constitutionally required and I 19 don't believe it was in the Kansas statute. 20 Secondly, it makes absolutely no sense because 21 you're dealing at least with one category of 22 persons who had been guilty. So -- but, 23 Senator, if you insist on your language, let me 24 just ask you this question. Why do you say 25 "alleged"? Alleged means there's been a charge 6267 1 that somebody has committed an act, right, a 2 crime? We say alleged. If somebody has been 3 convicted of a crime, we don't say alleged, we 4 say -- and that -- I think that exactly proves 5 my point, Senator, and you can continue to argue 6 it - 7 SENATOR VOLKER: Okay. All 8 right, Senator. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Let me just 10 continue, please -- as you will, but that 11 language, Senator, was intended and what the 12 draftsman had in mind was he was referring to 13 persons covered by this bill who had not stood 14 trial. That's the only way the use of the word 15 "alleged" makes any sense and what you would 16 have to do -- it wouldn't be a very hard thing 17 to do -- is, one, put in that as to those who 18 stood trial, maybe you have to establish that, 19 indeed, they had committed a violent sexual act, 20 that the violent act was sexually motivated but 21 you certainly don't have to prove it as to those 22 people who had stood convicted or pled guilty. 23 So it's just a matter of 24 draftsmanship and with all due respect, I know 25 how carefully you go over these bills. These 6268 1 are complicated bills. You had a terrific 2 counsel who did it, but I think in that instance 3 he left some language in there without properly 4 defining who he meant to have that language 5 apply to. 6 SENATOR VOLKER: I think you're 7 wrong, Senator, and let me just say to you, I 8 guess I just thought of an example. What if a 9 person is convicted of a sexual violent - 10 violent -- sexual violent predator offense and 11 is also convicted of attempted murder, for 12 instance, and is incarcerated. While he's 13 incarcerated, the sexual violent predator 14 offense is appealed or whatever and is thrown 15 out. Now he's technically -- he was 16 incarcerated and he was convicted of a violent 17 felony sexual offense. He was also convicted of 18 attempted murder. He's now about to be 19 released. It presents an interesting question 20 as to whether there should be at least some - 21 at least some check as to whether that person 22 maybe really was a violent felony offender even 23 though while he was in prison he was found that 24 that case was thrown out and so what this would 25 do is this would create a check for that person 6269 1 to make sure that he or she didn't get out into 2 society and become a danger to society. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 4 Senator Volker, I'm not going to pursue this 5 further, but I just want to say in the instance 6 that you've given, since the person was 7 convicted of two different acts, obviously the 8 indictment specifies a different act and the 9 jury is asked to consider different acts, so I 10 think you know what you're dealing with, but let 11 me also just on the issue that I'm addressing at 12 this moment, which I think is some draftsman 13 problems here, if you look on page 4 -- if you 14 look on page 4, where the person covered by this 15 bill can petition the court to be let out of 16 confinement and probable cause exists and the 17 standard that the court is to address is the 18 issue of mental abnormality or personality 19 disorder, neither of which have been defined. 20 They suddenly appear in the act. Previously we 21 have been talking about mental illness. Now - 22 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, you're 23 wrong. Look back, you'll find that it's in the 24 bill two or three different places, because if a 25 person has a mental disease or defect, they 6270 1 shouldn't be there in the first place. They 2 would be in a mental institution. You can't 3 convict them. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, take 5 a look at the definitions and maybe I've 6 overlooked it and show to me -- excuse me. Let 7 me - 8 SENATOR VOLKER: Page 3 - 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- just finish 10 my question -- and show to me where it defines 11 mental abnormality or personality disorder in 12 the definition. 13 SENATOR VOLKER: No, that's not 14 the issue, Senator. Mental -- that's not 15 something -- what is mental disease or defect, 16 Senator? 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mental - 18 SENATOR VOLKER: By the way, 19 Senator - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Gentlemen 21 -- gentlemen, if we might, we have been very, 22 very, very, I think accommodating from the Chair 23 in allowing your conversations -- as a matter of 24 fact, I was thinking about asking the two of you 25 to take your conversation out of the chamber so 6271 1 we could actually proceed, but I thought maybe 2 that would be out of order. 3 Could we go through the Chair on 4 asking questions and so that we can kind of keep 5 the conversation in an orderly fashion. 6 Senator Leichter, are you asking 7 Senator Volker to yield to another question? 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator - 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Leichter -- Senator Leichter, are you asking 11 Senator Volker to yield to a question? 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, I am, Mr. 13 President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Volker, do you yield? The Senator yields. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Through you, 17 Mr. President. Senator, the -- you have a 18 definition here of mental illness and, as I 19 understand it, the standard here that is to be 20 met in determining whether somebody now is going 21 to be subject to this confinement is that the 22 jury determined beyond a reasonable doubt a 23 mental illness and mental illness is defined as 24 "A congenital or acquired condition affecting 25 the emotional volitional capacity which 6272 1 predisposes the person in the commission of 2 criminal sexual acts in a degree constituting 3 such person a menace to the health and safety of 4 others." 5 There's no reference in the 6 definition whatsoever to mental abnormality or 7 personal disorder. What are they? How are they 8 defined? How is the court to determine those? 9 Suddenly they appear as the standard in the 10 court determining whether to grab a show cause 11 petition. 12 SENATOR VOLKER: It doesn't - 13 Senator, you didn't read page 3. "If the jury 14 determines the defendant is a sexual violent 15 predator, then it must be committed... treatment 16 until such time as the defendant's mental 17 abnormality or personality disorder has so 18 changed that the defendant no longer constitutes 19 a physical danger to others." That has been - 20 and it's quoted in three or four different 21 places and, Senator, that is a part of the bill 22 that is part of those definitions that are 23 assumed to be part of our understanding of what 24 these kinds of people are involved with. I 25 don't think -- the psychiatric experts on the 6273 1 stand, they are the kinds of definitions that 2 are very part of the -- the kind of illness or 3 problems that these people are involved with and 4 that's why the determin... determination has to 5 be made by psychiatric experts and, Senator, 6 you've argued this before. We know that there 7 are certain types of definitions that are 8 virtually indefinable because they are part of 9 the very language that we use to determine 10 whether people are sick or ill or whatever. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 12 if Senator Volker will continue to yield. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Volker, do you continue to yield? 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 16 Volker, isn't it a fact, isn't it true that in 17 your definitional provisions, you don't define 18 what mental abnormality or personality disorders 19 are? Isn't that true? 20 SENATOR VOLKER: This bill does 21 not and I don't think it's necessary to do it, 22 Senator, because if it was necessary to do it, 23 we would do it. By the way, the Supreme Court 24 didn't -- it didn't bother the Supreme Court 25 because they upheld this bill just as it is and 6274 1 this language was in that provision in the 2 Kansas statute and this apparently didn't bother 3 the Supreme Court. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 5 Senator Volker, are you telling me - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Leichter -- Senator Leichter, are you asking the 8 Senator to yield? 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: I did, sir. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Well, I'm 11 asking -- I would like to be included in the 12 request. So, Senator Volker, do you - 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Always through 14 you, Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Volker, do you yield to another question from 17 Senator Leichter? The Senator yields. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 19 Volker, are you representing to us that what we 20 have here is precisely the -- in haec verba the 21 Kansas statute that was the subject of a Supreme 22 Court decision? 23 SENATOR VOLKER: The language 24 that you're talking about is exactly -- and I 25 have this right here. I'm looking at the Kansas 6275 1 statute. I'm not saying that every single 2 provision is exactly but that language is 3 exactly, that is, the mental abnormality or 4 personality disorder, that comes directly out of 5 the Kansas statute. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 7 Volker, if you'll continue to yield. 8 SENATOR VOLKER: Yep. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: In the Kansas 10 statute, were those terms defined? 11 SENATOR VOLKER: Not any more 12 than they are in this bill right here. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Where are they 14 -- if you'll continue to yield. Where in this 15 bill are they defined at all? 16 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, you 17 know well and we've argued this before on a 18 number of occasions, you do not have to define 19 every single category that is involved in 20 disease or defect or that is involved in these 21 kinds of issues where technical -- particularly 22 where technical people, such as psychiatric 23 examinations are involved and these types of 24 disorders are assumed to be understood in the 25 community that makes the determinations. 6276 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if 2 you would continue to yield. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Volker, do you continue to yield? The Senator 5 continues to yield. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: What 7 statistics do we have as to the recidivism rate 8 of sexual predators? I mean, we've had a number 9 of bills this session, last session and all of 10 us sort of proceed on the assumption -- and one 11 reads it continuously or hears it that sexual 12 predators are more likely to commit their act 13 again. I'm not so sure that we have the 14 scientific basis for it or that the scientific 15 basis shows the degree that these people are 16 more likely to commit the same act again and to 17 what extent it is. I mean, I think we ought to 18 know some of these things before we embark on 19 what are really very radical changes in the way 20 that we have dealt with individuals as far as 21 their confinement is concerned. 22 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, I agree 23 with you on that and I must tell you that there 24 are innumerable studies going on right now. I 25 have never seen a study -- and I have seen 6277 1 several of them and I must believe that you have 2 too -- I have seen reports by psychiatric 3 bodies. I have seen several studies that have 4 dealt with preliminary determinations on people 5 who are involved in violent sexual offenses - 6 in fact, I believe the Supreme Court in this 7 decision speaks about the difference between 8 normal violent offenders, normal violent - 9 ordinary violent offenders, we may call them, 10 whatever the term is and sexual predator 11 offenders, that they assume -- they assume, 12 because every evidence that has appeared - 13 every evidence from psychiatric examinations and 14 psychological examinations and from the crimes 15 that have been committed, the numbers of crimes 16 have been committed show that recidivism is far 17 higher in these people and much more difficult 18 to deal with. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Hoffmann, why do you rise? 21 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I just wonder 22 if Senator Volker would like to yield for one 23 second for a statistic that might help to 24 elaborate on it. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Well, 6278 1 Senator Leichter has the floor. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Sure. I'll 3 yield. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Leichter yields. 6 SENATOR HOFFMANN: The last 7 period of time in which my office obtained 8 statistics on this subject is a little bit out 9 of date, and I can tell you that I know the 10 statistics have increased since that time, but 11 between 1978 and 1982, there were 598 first 12 degree rapists released from New York State 13 prisons. Within five years, 42 percent of those 14 had returned to prison. Only 19 percent came 15 back as parole violators but 23 percent were 16 returned having committed new sexual offenses. 17 Many of them -- I can't give you the exact 18 number but the majority of them were again for 19 first degree rapes. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Leichter, the floor is yours. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 23 I thank Senator Hoffmann, but I guess those 24 figures would only be meaningful, Senator 25 Hoffmann, if they -- if you compared them to 6279 1 burglars, murderers, muggers, embezzlers, and so 2 on. I mean, these are raw figures that by 3 themselves tell us nothing. 4 Senator Volker, if you would be 5 good enough to continue to yield. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Volker. 8 SENATOR VOLKER: Yep. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 Senator yields. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Senator, 12 you made some representations, I think in 13 discussion with Senator Abate, that this was all 14 under the Mental Hygiene Law. I see nothing in 15 this bill which refers to the Mental Hygiene Law 16 or which states that the confinement will be 17 under the supervision of the Department of 18 Mental Health. All it says is that upon being 19 found a violent predator, that the person were 20 to be put in a secure facility. 21 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, you'll 22 notice that the top of the section here, we talk 23 about the section of the law, 330.20, which is 24 the procedure for following a verdict - 25 SENATOR LEICHTER: What line? 6280 1 SENATOR VOLKER: Right at the 2 top, right in the beginning of the statute and 3 the procedure here is already in law, under the 4 Criminal Procedure Law, and we refer to it and 5 the commissioner as listed under 30.20 means the 6 state Commissioner of Mental Health or the state 7 commissioner, and so forth. That is already 8 referred to here. We didn't restate it because 9 it's already in the law. 10 This statute, this provision here 11 is an amendment to what's already in the law on 12 releases -- or on procedures following verdicts 13 or pleas or not responsible by reason of mental 14 disease or defect. In other words, we're adding 15 this as an additional part of that section and 16 that's why we don't refer to the commissioner - 17 we refer to the commissioner which has already 18 been designated in this section. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: I accept 20 that. Thank you. 21 Senator, let me -- if you would 22 continue to yield. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Volker, do you continue to yield? 25 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 6281 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Senator continues to yield. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, 4 you've -- in answer to Senator Abate and it was 5 picked up by Senator Gold, you implied or 6 actually stated that the test here in deciding 7 whether the person had a mental illness which 8 justified confinement was really pretty much the 9 same as he's a danger to himself or a danger to 10 others, but isn't it a fact, Senator, that 11 you've established a totally different 12 standard? That's not the standard because if it 13 was the standard, you wouldn't need the bill 14 because that's already in law. 15 SENATOR VOLKER: Well, what I was 16 pointing out was in the -- we refer back -- we 17 talk about predatory acts and things of a 18 sexually violent offense. What I said was it 19 was in the same -- in effect, in the same 20 neighborhood. If this person would have - 21 would be determined to be mentally ill and to 22 have mental defect, he would be -- he or she 23 would be confined, in fact, probably shouldn't 24 have been in prison in the first place. 25 What we are saying here is that 6282 1 we are using a special area for sexual predators 2 and sexually violent -- people that are sexually 3 violent offenders but it's in the same type of 4 area except since these people have -- have been 5 determined to have special problems, that we 6 are, in effect, using a bit of a different 7 standard. If the -- this jury, obviously should 8 find this person to be totally mentally ill, as 9 I pointed out, under the present law you 10 couldn't release them anyways. So what we are 11 doing here is we are using not exactly the same 12 standard but it's like a variation of that 13 standard short of totally mentally ill which 14 would allow these people to be determined to be 15 held for the time being. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 17 I thank my good friend. Senator Volker has 18 always -- has very effectively and articulately 19 defended his bill and, frankly, I think the bill 20 needed a lot of defending. 21 With all due respect, Senator 22 Volker, I think there's two issues here. One is 23 are we really smart enough as a society and do 24 we have clear enough guidelines to say that 25 somebody is so likely to do an act again, a 6283 1 criminal act that we're going to confine that 2 person? I'm not sure that we've reached that 3 degree of understanding of human motives, human 4 behavior, and while I accept that maybe there's 5 a greater predisposition on the part of certain 6 persons who have been convicted or committed 7 sexual offenses to do so again, I'm not sure 8 that the statistics show that the increase is so 9 far greater than for other acts that we really 10 want to, as to those people, completely change 11 what is a basic constitutional safeguard, that 12 we put people in jail for acts they've 13 committed. We don't put them in jail for acts 14 that they might commit. That's a very, very 15 significant change in the way we operate our 16 criminal justice system, and I think without 17 clear and compelling proof that this group is 18 really such a danger to society and that we can 19 tell which of these people, in fact, is likely 20 to commit a crime again, I think that we should 21 not shred this basic constitutional safeguard. 22 I think in addition -- and I want 23 to look at the Kansas statute -- with all 24 respect, I think that Senator Volker -- I won't 25 say Senator Volker because he told us he hadn't 6284 1 drafted the bill, but the draftsman of this bill 2 -- certainly Senator Volker has embraced it - 3 has actually provided a great deal of 4 protections. Some of the protections are so 5 great that actually it would impose such a 6 burden on the district attorney that I don't 7 believe you would ever be able to find anybody 8 -- a sexual violent predator because Senator 9 Volker insists that you have to almost retry the 10 earlier conviction. I just submit that that is 11 draftsmanship that wasn't carefully done, but 12 I'm particularly concerned that other aspects of 13 draftsmanship here, the use of words that are 14 not in the definitional section, I think make it 15 very difficult for the court or anybody else to 16 be guided in what is already a very difficult 17 area when we use terms such as personality 18 disorders. I mean, we're talking about people's 19 freedom, and I think all of us use the term 20 "personality disorder" in a very loose way. 21 It's used loosely in our society. It's not a 22 clearly defined term and now to make it the test 23 as to whether somebody gets out of this 24 confinement or not, without any definition, I 25 find to be a terrible flaw in this bill. 6285 1 So much as I would like that we 2 do the certainty that we could protect society 3 by saying, This guy's going to commit a crime 4 next year, we better put him in jail now, I 5 don't think we have that skill, the ability. I 6 don't think we have the constitutional 7 safeguards. The Supreme Court may say that 8 under certain circumstances you may do it, but 9 that doesn't mean that it's right policy. I 10 don't think it is right policy and, as I pointed 11 out, that policy, even if you wanted to pursue 12 it, under this bill, because of the language 13 difficulties, I don't think you would ever be 14 able to work that out in a rational manner. 15 So for all these reasons, Mr. 16 President, I'm going to vote against the bill. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Hoffmann. 19 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr. 20 President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Paterson, why do you rise? 23 SENATOR PATERSON: I don't know, 24 Mr. President. I'll sit down. 25 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Senator 6286 1 Paterson, would you like me to yield to you 2 or - 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Hoffmann, the floor is yours. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Yeah, if you 6 don't mind. 7 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Fine. I'll 8 reserve my remarks until after Senator Paterson. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Hoffmann passes. 11 Senator Paterson. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 13 I yielded an hour and 35 minutes ago. So I 14 thought I might not get another chance, but I'm 15 happy that Senator Hoffmann is yielding to me. 16 It was Senator Hoffmann who, in 1990, brought 17 this whole issue of sexual predators to the 18 attention of New Yorkers and cited some of the 19 same statistics that she did in the discussion 20 with Senator Leichter and Senator Volker. 21 Between 1978 and 1982, 42 percent 22 recidivism rate among sexual predators, 23 23 percent not related to parole violation but 24 actually furtherance of committing similar 25 offenses demonstrates the severity of this issue 6287 1 and also it is not the statistics taken alone 2 but it's the comparison of the recidivism in 3 this particular crime as opposed to other crimes 4 that makes it clear that it is not often the 5 willful act of the felon but really a 6 psychiatric condition that's overriding the 7 entire process. 8 This is something that Senator 9 Hoffmann was involved with when she introduced 10 the legislation in 1991 and has visited a number 11 of facilities around the state to try to focus 12 us on this particular issue and it's unfortunate 13 that it's taken until this time until we 14 actually have. 15 There are many types of reasons 16 that we put people in facilities and in -- for 17 the purpose of incarceration. One would just 18 simply be retribution. Another one would be 19 punishment. Another certainly would be 20 rehabilitation and it's on the issue of 21 rehabilitation that sparked really what is 22 probably the centering case that Senator Padavan 23 referred to, Jackson versus Indiana, U.S. 408, 24 which I believe is a 1977 case which held and 25 provided for the civil commitment of those who 6288 1 suffer from mental disease or disability even at 2 the time of trial and one of the original 3 problems with this type of situation is that 4 individuals who are charged with very serious 5 offenses were civilly committed and then because 6 they were just civil commitment cases, there was 7 no further examination of them and when 8 psychiatrists determined that there wasn't any 9 further mental problem, they actually slipped 10 into the cracks and got out on the streets 11 before the time that they would have served had 12 they been convicted of the crime. 13 So to really put this issue in 14 proper perspective, the access for criminality 15 and the access for civil commitment based on a 16 mental disease or defect are really 17 perpendicular. There is often not much of a 18 relationship and so, therefore, we can have 19 situations where an individual can serve a 20 longer time because in the opinion of 21 psychiatrists, they are not able to distinguish 22 between right and wrong and are not able to 23 significantly take care of themselves to the 24 point that they can make that judgment. So this 25 is why we already have legislated this 6289 1 opportunity. 2 So to put it simply, if a person 3 goes to prison for auto theft and about three 4 months before they are going to be released it 5 becomes clear from observers that they are 6 suffering from psychiatric problems, we right 7 now under Section 330.20 of the Criminal 8 Procedure Law can seek an order of retention. 9 There would be an annual review of these types 10 of cases which Senator Padavan referred to. 11 What this bill simply is trying 12 to do is to extend this option to situations 13 where there are -- where there's a relationship 14 of predatory action in terms of violent sexual 15 offenses. 16 So, therefore, on that scope, I 17 don't have any problem on this bill, but if 18 Senator Volker would yield for a question, there 19 is an issue I do have with this legislation. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Volker, do you yield? 22 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 24 Senator yields. 25 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, if a 6290 1 violent sexual offense is committed and the 2 prosecutor does not seek for there to be a 3 similar order of civil commitment such as is 4 provided for in this case and in the Kansas case 5 that was upheld by the Supreme Court, would it 6 not be likely that the prosecutor puts himself 7 or herself in the ambit of public criticism 8 should another violent felony be committed after 9 the incarceration by the then prisoner? 10 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, I 11 thought of that also, by the way. That is very 12 astute but the answer to that is that's true 13 except for the fact that if he's got to have the 14 evidence, he's got to be able to show that the 15 person would be one of those people who would 16 create a potential problem, and I would think 17 that the district attorney obviously would be in 18 a situation where he would have to have a very 19 thorough psychiatric exam and he would want to 20 have that psychiatric exam available. Should he 21 decide not to pursue it, I think he would use 22 that as -- he or she would use that as the 23 reason to show why he didn't pursue trying to 24 keep this person for a civil commitment, but I 25 think that is true. There would be a lot of 6291 1 pressure on that district attorney to pursue and 2 make sure that this person was not a danger 3 because should that person be released without 4 -- without any kind of a trial or whatever and 5 commit a serious sexual crime, he would probably 6 be in some jeopardy. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 8 if Senator Volker would continue to yield. 9 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, my 11 issue with this is that if we set up a scenario 12 where the prosecutor really -- prosecutors 13 really for their own public protection for 14 scrutiny which would come after the fact -- and 15 we already know based on the statistics that 16 Senator Hoffmann offered us in all of her 17 research, we already know that there is a high 18 degree of recidivism anyway. So we know that 19 there's a serious problem with these types of 20 offenses and these types of offenders. We just 21 don't know specifically who it is that's coming 22 back. So we're trying to make a determination 23 as to who it is. With the high number of 24 returning felons and the prosecutor, as I 25 assert, being left almost no option but to seek 6292 1 these orders within 90 days of release, aren't 2 we creating a situation where individuals -- in 3 other words, I'm going about it in a different 4 way but am I not coming to the same conclusion 5 that Senator Waldon came to, that in the end we 6 are taking individuals based on the type of 7 crime they committed and in a sense holding them 8 to a higher standard when our alternative could 9 have been if we demonstrate that this is a crime 10 that has the serious ramifications that it does, 11 that we simply just extend the sentence for this 12 crime in the first place? 13 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, the 14 problem with that is -- and I admit to you that 15 -- because we haven't had a lot of time since 16 the Supreme Court decision. I did think about 17 that, but I guess you have to think about the 18 process here. Remember, these people are 19 criminally incarcerated, that is, they're 20 incarcerated for a crime and the reason it's 21 logical, we go back to the district attorney who 22 prosecuted the case -- because obviously they 23 have the records and they're the people that 24 actually did this case in the first place. When 25 it comes to a civil commitment, the problem is 6293 1 you have incarcerated people under a crime. You 2 couldn't very well automatically refer them to 3 mental hygiene. Somebody would have to do some 4 sort of determining and make some sort of 5 presentation. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President. 7 SENATOR VOLKER: So although I 8 understand what you're saying, I just don't know 9 how else logically you would do this because, 10 although certainly there will be some pressure 11 on a district attorney, you still have the 12 situation he has to have the proof -- he or she 13 has to have the proof, the psychiatric proof, 14 psychological proof, whatever, to determine that 15 person's status. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Paterson. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 19 on the bill. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Paterson, on the bill. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm going to 23 vote for the bill, Mr. President, because I 24 think that it really creates a new avenue for 25 the application of law the same way it's been 6294 1 applied before. I don't know that people knew 2 that the district attorney had that option, as I 3 said before, under Section 330.20 of the 4 Criminal Procedure Law as it stands right now 5 and that there did not have to be any indication 6 at the point of the trial that the prosecutor 7 was going to seek this action. As a matter of 8 fact, it's usually events that occur while the 9 individual is incarcerated that bring this 10 about. 11 However, my point -- and it's 12 just an admonition should this come close to 13 becoming law, that I think we've got to take a 14 look at the situation that befalls many people 15 who are incarcerated that, in many respects, 16 regardless of their behavior, that the 17 prosecutors may not want to take the chance. 18 They may not win in the proceeding but they at 19 least can state later that they brought the 20 proceeding so that somebody doesn't raise the 21 issue of, Didn't you know about violent 22 felonies, violent sexual offenses? Didn't you 23 know the percentage of it? Didn't you know this 24 person, whatever personal statistics can be 25 compiled about the individual and then a charge 6295 1 is made later on, our public servants didn't do 2 their job, they should have brought this 3 action. It's a little bit different than in the 4 standard crime, and so I have a concern that 5 makes it difficult for me to go forward. 6 However, because of the 7 staggering statistics and the difference between 8 the recidivism rate on these types of offenses 9 based on -- in comparison to others, I actually 10 think that had we done this in order, we would 11 have probably approached the violent sexual 12 offenses first and the other types of situations 13 where the prosecutor can raise the issue of 14 mental disease or defect would have come later 15 because of the starkness with which it appears 16 clear that these acts seem to be more related to 17 mental disease than they are to anything else. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Hoffmann. 20 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr. 21 President. 22 I'd like to compliment Senator 23 Volker on bringing this bill before us and thank 24 Senator Bruno for allowing it to come before to 25 the floor today. It's a subject which I have 6296 1 been concerned about for many years and studied 2 at some length in the early 1990s and believed 3 that its time has come and I look forward to a 4 -- an opportunity with the other house to 5 develop, probably through the Conference 6 Committee process, legislation will pass both 7 houses. 8 I don't look at this as a 9 one-house bill. One of my colleagues asked 10 about this a little while ago. I think this is 11 a very important first step to putting New York 12 State on that short list of other states which 13 have taken the responsibility that is incumbent 14 upon us to do something meaningful to protect 15 the women and children of this state from those 16 predatory sex offenders who it is clearly known 17 will rape and will commit horrible cases of 18 child molestation upon their release. 19 It is known by the people who are 20 handling them in treatment while they are 21 incarcerated that in some instances, not all, 22 but in some instances they are beyond almost any 23 certainty of a doubt going to commit the same 24 crime again and sometimes worse crimes and what 25 is particularly frustrating to the people who 6297 1 are in the treatment profession is the situation 2 that presently exists, whereby in some cases a 3 convicted rapist has made it abundantly clear 4 during his period of incarceration that he 5 intends to do the same type of thing upon 6 release. 7 Our parole situation is such in 8 New York State that such rapists are generally 9 not paroled. We don't have a mandated aftercare 10 system for sex offender treatment as we should 11 in this state. Therefore, the Parole Board 12 wisely and to cut its own losses will not 13 release an inmate who has demonstrated that type 14 of violent sexual offense until he has max'ed 15 out. Once he has max'ed out, he's released from 16 state custody and there is no means of 17 controlling or even supervising his behavior. 18 When such an individual states 19 while incarcerated that he has every intention 20 of committing the same crime again, it is a very 21 frustrating situation for those people in our 22 criminal justice system. The district attorneys 23 who originally prosecuted the case, the victims 24 from the first -- or not always the first but 25 from previous sexual offenses, even the 6298 1 perpetrator's families shudder in horror of the 2 prospect of this individual being released 3 having stated that he has the intention of 4 committing the same or similar crimes again, and 5 it's important for us to understand that it is 6 not always a case of the mental health experts, 7 the psychologists and psychiatrists determining 8 that a person is, in fact, capable of it. It is 9 sometimes the individual himself who has 10 announced that very clearly and there is no way 11 to prevent him from being released to society 12 without having this type of statute on the books 13 in New York State. 14 Senator Leichter asked a question 15 about statistics and then seemed to not be 16 interested in the response and made some strange 17 reference to the fact that he didn't think it 18 was relevant because it didn't compare the 19 recidivism rate for first degree rapists for the 20 recidivism rate for burglars. I find that a 21 little bit offensive because the case of 22 burglary has a very different type of victim 23 population than does rape or child molestation, 24 and I think it is our responsibility to address 25 the problem of rape and recurring crimes by 6299 1 rapists with the same seriousness that we should 2 be looking at many other issues and, 3 unfortunately, this one has languished for a 4 number of years. 5 It's hard for me to understand 6 why but for several years, a bill which I had 7 introduced was never heard in committee, has 8 never been allowed to come to the floor, and I'm 9 pleased to be on the bill that Senator Volker 10 has brought forward today but I'm a little bit 11 sad because I know that had we enacted 12 legislation ourselves a number of years ago, it 13 might have been the New York statute that was 14 tried before the Supreme Court and upheld, not 15 the Kansas statute. 16 I embarked upon this study back 17 in 1990 -- actually it was in the late '80s 18 after a number of hearings where the Finance 19 Committee would listen to the Department of 20 Corrections Commissioner explain what was 21 happening statistically within our prison 22 system. I recognized the dramatic increase in 23 sexual offenses and while the Department was 24 looking for huge budgetary increases to deal 25 with drug abuse problems among the drug offender 6300 1 population, there was no similar request being 2 made of the Legislature and the Governor to come 3 up with a special source of funding to deal with 4 the unique problems caused by sex offenders. 5 The statistics were staggering. 6 Between 1982 and 1989 in New York State, 7 sentenced sex offenders increased by 174 percent 8 in our prison population. I thought that that 9 warranted some additional study and additional 10 decision-making on our part to either attempt to 11 reduce or curb the increase that we were 12 experiencing with sex offenders and I did not 13 know why when I went into this process we were 14 experiencing this increase. It's still very 15 difficult to determine why but it is real. 16 The problem is with us. The 17 number of child abuse, child molestation and 18 first degree rape cases is markedly increasing 19 all over the country and we have to deal with 20 the problem of who these individuals are and 21 what happens to them upon completion of their 22 sentence and what happens to them while they're 23 incarcerated. 24 I looked at what several other 25 states have done. I visited the programs in 6301 1 place in Minnesota, in Washington State and in 2 New Jersey. Working with our Division of 3 Criminal Justice Services and its commissioner 4 at that time, John Poklemba, and his staff, we 5 did an analysis at that time and we studied that 6 states offered unique examples of sex offender 7 legislation and treatment options and determined 8 that it was wise to visit those states and do 9 the following: visit with the corrections 10 officials who run the programs in those states, 11 visit with the legislators who had enacted very 12 significant legislation on the cutting edge of 13 sex offender law, see the programs in action, 14 including interacting with the sentenced sex 15 offenders and have the opportunity to come back 16 and see what would work within New York State's 17 system of criminal justice and correctional 18 services. 19 There were a number of things 20 that became apparent on this trip. First of 21 all, the state of Minnesota is the one which has 22 the lowest recidivism rate in the nation for sex 23 offenders. Once they have completed their 24 sentence, sex offenders in Minnesota do not 25 return to the prison population, anything like 6302 1 the statistics that we experience in New York 2 State and, indeed, most other states. 3 There was several reasons for 4 this. One is the fact that they have a mandated 5 sex offender treatment program in that state. 6 All sex offenders, regardless of the degree of 7 offense are required to undergo mandatory 8 treatment and they are kept in this treatment 9 for as long a period of time as they cooperate 10 with the treatment. They are not allowed parole 11 without having a mandated aftercare component. 12 This means that they continue in treatment and 13 they have close psychological supervision, both 14 as inmates and as parolees. This is totally 15 unlike New York State where once they are 16 paroled, there is no supervision whatsoever 17 because they have inevitably max'ed out. The 18 Parole Board won't take a chance in paroling a 19 sex offender. They max'ed out. They serve 20 their term and then they are let go. The phrase 21 that they use in Minnesota is we keep a hook in 22 them. 23 In Minnesota, the Parole 24 Department and the Corrections Department are 25 run under the supervision of one agency. The 6303 1 Department of Corrections in that state under 2 Commissioner Orville Pung, who had been there 3 for many, many years, was capable of managing 4 the movements of these inmates both while 5 incarcerated and upon release in such a way as 6 to ensure both the best type of treatment for 7 the individual to eventually in many cases 8 become a responsible member of society but more 9 importantly to provide a high measure of safety 10 for the citizens of the state of Minnesota. 11 That model, good as it was for 12 Minnesota, unfortunately would not work in New 13 York State because of our very different type of 14 system. We have very different forms of 15 supervision for parole in New York State and an 16 entirely separate bureaucracy. Sadly, there is 17 not as much connection and a lot of 18 communication between these two agencies and it 19 will be helpful for us as we go into this issue 20 now in greater detail, armed with some of this 21 information, to see how we can better mesh these 22 two agencies, but when I returned from having 23 seen Minnesota, Washington and New Jersey's 24 programs, the one that seemed most likely for us 25 for the sex offender treatment component was, in 6304 1 fact, the Minnesota model and with Commissioner 2 Tom Coughlin, we embarked upon a mandatory sex 3 offender treatment program here in New York 4 State on a somewhat smaller scale than what 5 Minnesota does, not for as long a duration and 6 not with the mandated aftercare but 7 nevertheless, in 1991, New York State entered 8 that age as well and we now have mandated sex 9 offender treatment at Oneida Correctional 10 facility where all of the sentenced sex 11 offenders in New York State must spend some 12 time, at lease a minimal amount of time, 13 sometimes as little as six weeks, generally at 14 six months and in a few years we will begin to 15 compile statistics to show whether we have 16 reduced recidivism by even a modest amount by 17 virtue of that program. 18 The state that had the best law 19 dealing with predatory sex offenders at that 20 time and the one that was in the forefront was 21 Washington State. Washington State had a 22 particularly heinous series of sexual offenses 23 for that state, probably not that shocking for 24 people in New York who are used to reading about 25 such things in the tabloid newspapers on a 6305 1 fairly regular basis, but in Washington State, 2 they had become shocked into the reality that 3 there were incredibly dangerous people in that 4 state committing heinous crimes of rape and 5 sexual abuse against children and murder and 6 they began a series of public hearings that the 7 Legislature convened. The select committee held 8 hearings around the state and out of those 9 hearings they determined that they would embark 10 upon a two-pronged approach. 11 One was to increase their sex 12 offender treatment for the incarcerated inmates, 13 strengthen the sentencing guidelines, make it 14 somewhat easier to sentence some of those sex 15 offenders who previously were let off on plea 16 bargain charges because it's always very 17 difficult to prove, especially in the case of 18 children, where witnesses are not resisting the 19 nature of the sexual offense and very often the 20 victims -- in an attempt to spare the victim the 21 agony of the trial, it's the perpetrator who 22 catches the break, but in Washington State they 23 did something else and in 1990, they passed a 24 law in Washington State that was the Sexual 25 Predator Law upon which Kansas and many other 6306 1 states then based their sexual predator laws. 2 I introduced the first bill in 3 1991 in New York State, modeled very much upon 4 the Washington statute and I'm sorry that a few 5 of my colleagues who raised some questions 6 aren't here right now so that I could explain 7 the differences between the Washington statute 8 and the Kansas statute. 9 I'm pleased as everyone -- as I 10 hope most people are pleased -- that the Supreme 11 Court has upheld the Kansas statute. I think 12 they would have found it equally comfortable to 13 uphold the Washington State statute. It was 14 just a circumstance of the process by which 15 appeals move through the judicial system in this 16 country that brought the Kansas statute before 17 the Supreme Court ahead of the Washington State 18 one. Had the Washington State law gone first, 19 it too would have been upheld by the Supreme 20 Court of the United States, I'm quite sure, but 21 within these two laws, Kansas and Washington 22 State, there are absolute guarantees for due 23 process to allow the kind of careful check and 24 balance that some of my colleagues on this side 25 of the aisle, particularly Senator Waldon, have 6307 1 raised. 2 This is not an automatic sentence 3 to a mental health sentence. It requires the 4 kind of evaluation that sets up the process by 5 which the psychological evidence must be so 6 clearly demonstrated that the person is 7 incarcerated under the Mental Hygiene Law as 8 opposed to the Corrections Law. 9 I have no doubt that the bill 10 that Senator Volker has introduced can contain 11 every one of the guidelines that's necessary but 12 if more are deemed reasonable by members of this 13 house and members of the other house, then I 14 would have no problem with putting them on 15 because I have every confidence that this 16 measure, once signed into law, is going to be 17 enacted fairly. I have confidence in this 18 system by which the psychological evidence will 19 be the determining factor for recommitment under 20 the mental hygiene statute, that there will not 21 be violation of individual rights. We are only 22 talking about a mere handful of cases per year 23 that would be likely to find the force of this 24 law in effect. It's not dozens and dozens or 25 hundreds of those first degree rapist. The vast 6308 1 majority of them will continue to serve their 2 sentences and be released to society and sadly 3 many of them will commit the same crimes again. 4 We cannot do much about the vast majority of 5 them but there are a unique handful, a unique 6 handful who are, in fact, so dangerous, who have 7 made it abundantly clear through their actions 8 while incarcerated, not just because of their 9 crime -- we do not need to retry that crime 10 again. It is their actions while incarcerated. 11 It is their own statements which make them 12 mentally unstable to the point that the 13 psychological testimony will have them 14 recommitted into a mental hygiene facility for 15 their benefit as well as for the benefit of 16 society and with an annual evaluation, it's 17 possible some of them would after a few years be 18 released or be released to a less secure 19 facility and begin the phasing process into 20 society again. It does not have to be a 21 lifetime commitment as some would have suggested 22 but for the most dangerous, it must be a 23 commitment beyond the current criminal sentence 24 that they serve and I'm glad that we have taken 25 this step. 6309 1 I wish we could have done it in 2 1991 or 1992 or any number of other times. It's 3 too bad that we are doing it in a reactionary 4 mode following the Supreme Court decision 5 instead of having taken the opportunity to be 6 one of those states that set the example for the 7 rest of the nation on this, but I look forward 8 to the future dialogue between the houses and, 9 again, I want to thank Senator Volker for having 10 the courage to bring this measure before the 11 rest of the Senate, and I would urge all of my 12 colleagues to demonstrate their support for this 13 very important measure for protection for the 14 women, the children of this state. 15 Think of it in terms of avoiding 16 the crime of rape. It's a lot different from 17 burglary. It is not -- it is not a victimless 18 crime. It is one in which we should be spending 19 more time, not less time. Nobody likes to talk 20 about the subject of rape. We've never held 21 hearings on this particular measure, but I hope 22 following the Supreme Court decision, following 23 the passage of this bill today in this house 24 that we will then take this matter to the public 25 and be able to make sure that we are comfortable 6310 1 passing the strongest measure of protection that 2 we can possibly do in New York State to protect 3 the people of this state from some of the most 4 horrendous crimes imaginable. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: With the 6 two-hour time limit on debate having expired, 7 the Secretary will read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 9 act shall take effect on the first day of 10 November. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Record 15 the negatives and announce the results. 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55, nays 1, 17 Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 Senator Present. 21 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 22 I would like to announce there will be an 23 immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in Room 24 332. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 6311 1 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules 2 Committee, an immediate meeting of the Rules 3 Committee in the Majority Conference Room, Room 4 332. 5 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Mr. President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Hoffmann, why do you rise? 8 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I was out of 9 the chamber when Calendar 855 was brought up and 10 I would request unanimous consent to be recorded 11 in the negative. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 13 objection, hearing no objection, Senator 14 Hoffmann will be recorded in the negative on 15 Calendar Number 855. 16 Senator Present. 17 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President, 18 could we take up Calendar 1423, Senator 19 Velella's bill. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 Secretary will read. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 1423, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 1882, an 24 act to amend the Administrative Code of the city 25 of New York, in relation to establishing. 6312 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 2 a home rule message at the desk. The Secretary 3 will read the last section. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: 1423? 5 Explanation. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Velella, an explanation of Calendar Number 1423 8 has been requested. 9 SENATOR VELELLA: Mr. President, 10 this bill establishes a procedure for the 11 Corrections Department employees and members of 12 the disability retirement system to have a 13 medical expert review panel put in place to 14 review cases and applications they may make on 15 the medical disability claims. 16 This is similar to provisions 17 that are already in place for members of the 18 Sanitation Department and for the Police 19 Department. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Leichter. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Would Senator 23 Velella yield, please? 24 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6313 1 Velella, do you yield? The Senator yields. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, you 3 actually addressed one of the questions I had. 4 Do we have these independent medical review 5 panels for other City employees? You mentioned 6 police and you mentioned sanitation. How about 7 the fire department? 8 SENATOR VELELLA: I only know of 9 the police -- I only know of the police and 10 sanitation and hopefully with the passage of 11 this bill, correction officers. I don't know 12 about the others. They may or may not have. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 14 if Senator Velella continues to yield. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Do you 16 continue to yield, Senator Velella? 17 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 19 Senator yields. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, 21 wouldn't it seem to you that it would make sense 22 to have a uniform policy for all City 23 employees? 24 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, it 25 makes sense to me that we pass this bill and let 6314 1 the opportunity for medical experts make rulings 2 on applications for correction officers. If you 3 feel you want to expand that to other groups, 4 put the bill in. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 6 I was trying to get your opinion, Senator. I 7 know what my opinion is. 8 SENATOR VELELLA: Oh, okay. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Leichter. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, I'm 12 asking Senator - 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator, 14 this is an orderly body, not an argumentative 15 one, and we're going to keep it that way. If 16 you have a question to ask Senator Velella, I'll 17 certainly ask him if he'll yield to that. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: I was in the 19 process of asking my question when Senator 20 Velella felt that he wanted to jump to an 21 answer. 22 Let me finish asking the 23 question. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Velella, do you yield to another question from 6315 1 Senator Leichter? 2 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Senator yields. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: I certainly 6 have in mind, as I'm sure Senator Velella does, 7 it's always good to know we're an orderly body. 8 So, Senator, my question to you 9 is, I know my view but I wanted to get your view 10 as to whether you think all City employees ought 11 to have the benefit of these independent medical 12 review panels to determine if there's 13 disability, or is there something special about 14 correction officers, police and sanitation that 15 distinguish them from fire department, people 16 who work for HRA, and so on? 17 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, my 18 response to that is that, first of all, my 19 personal belief is that in this case that we are 20 discussing here, this is a good idea. Secondly, 21 I have a basic premise that I operate under that 22 may be different than yours and that is if it 23 isn't broke, you don't fix it. Correction 24 officers came to me and said this is a problem 25 they have. They're seeking to have this problem 6316 1 that they have in their disability pensions 2 resolved. They would like to have the same type 3 of panel as the other groups have that -- that I 4 mentioned and I said, I think I agree with you, 5 I think I'll put the bill in and let it be 6 passed, and let the Senate make a decision on 7 it. 8 If other groups out there or 9 within the sound of our voices, seek to have the 10 same benefit, let them come in; I'll be happy to 11 look at it. But my policy is I don't go out 12 there looking for things to fix if they aren't 13 broke. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Leichter. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator 18 Velella continues to yield? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Velella, you continue to yield? 21 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: You made a 24 determination that as to correction officers, 25 the determination of disability was broken. 6317 1 Would you tell us in what respect the current 2 system failed to work and why you deemed that it 3 was broken? 4 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, Senator, 5 you've made -- you've made a tremendous jump as 6 to what my conclusions were. I know you think 7 you can get into everybody's mind and attribute 8 reasons to them, but at least give me the 9 opportunity to explain to you my own mental 10 process. Again I'll try to make it simple so 11 you can understand it. 12 The correction officers came to 13 me complaining of an inequity. They said there 14 are not medical professionals of competence and 15 expertise to make judgments on their 16 applications. They would like to broaden the 17 panel, and I said, I think that's a good idea. 18 You don't have that. Is there a precedent for 19 it? They said, Yes; they gave me precedents 20 from other unions, other groups, and I said I 21 would put the bill in. 22 Now, if you want to expand that 23 to what other processes and decisions I made, it 24 was pretty simple. It was a group of 25 constituents seeking to get assistance in a 6318 1 problem they had that had precedents in law, and 2 it's that simple. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 4 if Senator Volker continues -- Senator Velella, 5 that is continues to yield. Senator - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Leichter, let me find out if he continues to 8 yield. As a good lawyer, you don't want to 9 assume anything. 10 Senator Velella, do you continue 11 to yield? 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 continues to yield. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 16 Velella, I raised the issue of being broke 17 because you said that you thought it was 18 broken. Now, you explain it in terms of you 19 thought it was fairer that there would be an 20 independent medical review panel and that may be 21 so. 22 I'm just trying to find out, were 23 there problems with the current system; has it 24 been unfair? Did it not work? Were there 25 instances of people who you and I and others 6319 1 would clearly consider disabled who were denied 2 disability pensions? 3 SENATOR VELELLA: Is that the 4 question? 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 6 SENATOR VELELLA: I don't know 7 that there were people that were denied that 8 were rightfully or wrongfully denied. I know 9 that this is a suggestion for a better way of 10 doing it and putting more competent people on 11 the board. I think it's a better way to do it. 12 It gives a broader base of medical expertise to 13 the panel that's going to be selected. 14 Now, unfortunately, every piece 15 of legislation that comes before this house we 16 don't have the opportunity to go out and contact 17 every member of the union that's being affected, 18 and say, Do you think this is working right or 19 wrong? I made a judgment. I hope the house 20 makes a judgment. This broadens the base of 21 expertise available on applications and it's 22 been done for other unions, should be done for 23 this union, and I think that the bill should be 24 voted on the merits that this is a better 25 system, not worrying about what little nuances 6320 1 may have occurred in the past. We're moving 2 ahead to a better way of doing it. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 4 if Senator Velella continues to yield. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Velella, do you continue to yield? 7 SENATOR VELELLA: I'm not going 8 to yield any more. I'll let the bill stay the 9 way it is. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 refuses to yield. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. Well, I 13 think it's unfortunate, because I think there 14 are some questions here as to the position of 15 the city of New York. Is this a matter that's 16 in collective bargaining? I'm sorry that Senator 17 Velella doesn't want to defend his bill or 18 address these issues, but I think I am troubled 19 by the fact that unless we're given some sound 20 reason as to why we should interfere in a matter 21 which is basically settled by collective 22 bargaining between the city of New York and its 23 employees, and we have another bill on later 24 today where this legislature meddles in what is 25 really a matter of the city of New York and its 6321 1 relationship it has with its employees. 2 So based on, you know, Senator 3 Velella's answers and what he hasn't answered, I 4 take this to be an infringement on the rights of 5 the city of New York, maybe an interference in 6 the collective bargaining. I know no reason why 7 the current system is not working. I also don't 8 know whether there's any effort here to broaden 9 the bases upon which disability is granted. 10 Disability pensions cost an 11 enormous amount to the city of New York and its 12 taxpayers. Some are fair and some are very 13 unfair and, frankly, people taking advantage of 14 the city of New York. Is this an effort to try 15 to broaden the people that are going to win 16 disability pensions that have to be paid for by 17 the people of the city of New York? 18 It might well be the case. We 19 never -- we won't have all the answers because 20 Senator Velella said he didn't have time to look 21 at the nuances. I don't think I asked him to 22 check with every member of the union. I don't 23 know whether he checked with the commissioner. 24 In fact, we have a former commissioner of 25 corrections, Senator Velella, sits about 20 feet 6322 1 from you. Maybe she might have given you some 2 information or advice as to how well the current 3 board was working. 4 Based on the information I have, 5 I would urge members to vote against this bill. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 7 will read the last section - 8 SENATOR VELELLA: Speak on the 9 bill. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Velella, on the bill. 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Mr. President, 13 on the bill, I would like to point out to the 14 members that there is a message at the desk from 15 the city of New York that the City has approved 16 this bill and is in full support of the bill so, 17 again, we have a case of Senator Leichter's 18 all-knowing knowledge superseding everybody 19 else's ability to make decisions. 20 I would suggest that the state 21 Senate is not the place for a classroom to 22 educate someone as to everything that's going on 23 in the city of New York. If the Senator has a 24 particular question and a particular concern, 25 it's their obligation also to look into the 6323 1 issue. This bill is on the calendar; calls 2 could be made to find out about it. 3 I believe we've met the obliga 4 tion. The city of New York has requested it; 5 the union has requested it; the administration 6 has requested it. There is precedent for it. 7 It's a better system to operate under despite 8 Senator Leichter's concerns and lack of 9 knowledge in terms of looking into what he has 10 concerns about. I'm not here to educate him. 11 I'm here to make proposals to improve the 12 process. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Leichter, why do you rise? 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: I raised the 20 issue whether the city of New York's for the 21 bill. I don't know; I just saw it. Senator 22 Velella, I was going to ask you is the city of 23 New York for it? I'll ask you to yield now. 24 Is it not the home rule message 25 -- the City Council I understand. Is the city 6324 1 of New York, your mayor, my mayor, have they 2 come out in favor of the bill? 3 SENATOR VELELLA: The same answer 4 that I gave you in the Rules Committee, the same 5 answer that I'm giving you here now. Sometimes 6 it doesn't get through your head when you hear 7 something direct. There is a home rule 8 message. I have not had any reason to believe 9 anybody is against this bill. The mayor has not 10 contacted me. There's been no memo that I have 11 seen against it. If you have one, show it to 12 me. 13 I appreciate your concern for the 14 mayor of the city of New York, but if he had a 15 problem, I assure you he would let me know. The 16 Council has voted for it. Yes, I say the voices 17 I have heard from the city of New York say they 18 want this bill. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Leichter. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: There's a big 22 difference saying that there's a home rule 23 message which came from the City Council and 24 saying the city of New York is for it. We've 25 had a number of instances where there have been 6325 1 home rule messages and the mayor has taken a 2 different position. 3 I happen to have a lot of 4 disagreements with the mayor, but I do happen to 5 believe that when it comes to management issues 6 between employer and employee that the chief 7 execute ought to have freedom to work out that 8 relationship. 9 So, Senator, I gather now that - 10 and I thank you for answering -- that the city 11 of New York has not approved the bill. You 12 pointed out that they haven't opposed it. I 13 have not seen a memo of opposition either, but 14 what you were referring to is a home rule 15 message which is far different than saying the 16 city of New York supports the bill. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 18 will read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Record 25 the negatives. Announce the results. 6326 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55, nays 2 one, Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Larkin, we have some housekeeping at the desk 5 we'd like to do if that's possible. 6 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, please. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Return to 8 the order of motions and resolutions. Secretary 9 will read the substitutions. 10 THE SECRETARY: On page 5, 11 Senator Farley moves to discharge from the 12 Committee on Rules Assembly Print 5281 and 13 substitute for the identical Senate Third 14 Reading 147. 15 On page 9, Senator Velella moves 16 to discharge from the Committee on Rules 17 Assembly Print 7728-A, and substitute for the 18 identical Senate Third Reading 340. 19 On page 10, Senator Goodman moves 20 to discharge from the Committee on Rules 21 Assembly Print 5036-B and substitute it for the 22 identical Senate bill, Third Reading 371. 23 On page 17, Senator Tully moves 24 to discharge from the Committee on Rules 25 Assembly Print 8009-A and substitute it for the 6327 1 identical Senate bill, Third Reading 633. 2 On page 26, Senator DeFrancisco 3 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules 4 Assembly Print 6652-A and substitute it for the 5 identical Senate bill, Third Reading 911. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 7 Substitutions are ordered. 8 Chair recognizes Senator 9 Marcellino. 10 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 11 Mr. President. 12 On page number 23, I offer the 13 following amendments to Calendar Number 839, 14 Senate Print Number 4124, and ask that said bill 15 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 17 Amendments to Calendar Number 839 are received 18 and adopted and the bill will retain its place 19 on the Third Reading Calendar. 20 Senator Marcellino. 21 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 22 President, I wish to call up, on behalf of 23 Senator Leibell, Calendar Number 504, Assembly 24 Print Number 2931. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6328 1 will read. 2 THE SECRETARY: By member of the 3 Assembly Lopez, Assembly Print 2931, an act to 4 amend the Private Housing Finance Law. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Marcellino. 7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I now move 8 to reconsider the vote by which this Assembly 9 bill was substituted for Senator Leibell's bill, 10 Print Number 3508, on April 8th. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will call the roll on reconsideration. 13 (The Secretary called the roll on 14 reconsideration.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Marcellino. 18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I now move 19 that Assembly Bill Number 2931 be committed to 20 the Committee on Rules and Senator Leibell's 21 bill, Senate bill, be restored to the order of 22 third reading. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 24 Assembly bill will be committed and the Senate 25 bill will be restored. 6329 1 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I now move 2 to offer the following amendments. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 amendments are received and adopted. 5 Senator Marcellino. 6 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 7 President, I wish to call up Senator Leibell's 8 bill, Print Number 3731, recalled from the 9 Assembly which is now at the desk. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read. 12 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 13 Leibell, Senate Print 3731, an act to amend 14 Chapter 915 of the Laws of 1982. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Marcellino. 17 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 18 President, I now move to reconsider the vote by 19 which this bill was passed. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 21 will call the roll on reconsideration. 22 (The Secretary called the roll on 23 reconsideration.) 24 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6330 1 Marcellino. 2 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 3 President, I now offer the following 4 amendments. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 6 Amendments are received and adopted. 7 Senator Marcellino. 8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 9 President, I wish to call up Calendar Number 10 792, Assembly Print Number 8089. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 792, by the assembly Committee on Rules, 15 Assembly Print 8089, an act to provide for the 16 adjustment of stipends. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Marcellino. 19 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 20 Mr. President. I now move to reconsider the 21 vote by which this Assembly bill was substituted 22 for Senator Trunzo's bill, Senate Print Number 23 5237-A on June 9. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 25 will call the roll on reconsideration. 6331 1 (The Secretary called the roll on 2 reconsideration.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Marcellino. 6 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I now move 7 that Assembly Bill Number 8089 be recommitted to 8 the Committee on Rules and Senate Bill -- and 9 Senator Trunzo's bill be restored to the order 10 of Third Reading Calendar. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Senate bill will be restored to the Third 13 Reading Calendar. 14 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 16 you, Senator Marcellino. 17 Senator Larkin. 18 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 19 may we now call up Calendar 1380, by Senator 20 Goodman. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will read the title. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 1380, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 430-A, an 25 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to 6332 1 the unauthorized practice of a profession. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 3 will read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 7 roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 11 is passed. 12 SENATOR LARKIN: Could we now 13 proceed on regular order. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar 15 Number 1380 was passed. 16 We'll now go to regular order, 17 commencing with Calendar Number 1424, by Senator 18 Hannon. 19 SENATOR GENTILE: Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Gentile. 22 SENATOR GENTILE: I would just 23 ask for unanimous consent to be recorded in the 24 negative on Calendar Numbers 124 and 1135. 25 SENATOR KUHL: Without objection, 6333 1 hearing no objection, Senator Gentile will be 2 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 3 124. Senator Gentile, we're just checking, but 4 apparently you're on a different time schedule 5 and calendar than we are because neither of 6 those -- we appreciate your optimism and 7 enthusiasm for the adoption of bills which have 8 not been adopted by this chamber, so we're not 9 able to record your votes at this time. 10 SENATOR GENTILE: Trying to speed 11 the process along. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We 13 appreciate that. Maybe you can talk with some 14 of the other members of the house. 15 Secretary will continue to call 16 the controversial calendar, commencing with 17 Calendar Number 1424, by Senator Hannon. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1424, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 2186, an 20 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to 21 experimental alternative institutional. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the last section. 24 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 25 act shall take effect July 1. 6334 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 2 roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6 is passed. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 1425, by Senator Montgomery, Senate Print 2574, 9 an act authorizing. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 11 no home rule bill at the desk, so the bill will 12 be laid aside. Continue to call the 13 controversial calendar. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 1428, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 2697, an 16 act to amend the Public Service Law, in relation 17 to definition. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 19 will read the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 23 roll. 24 (The Secretary called the roll.) 25 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 6335 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 2 is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 1429, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 2707-A, an 5 act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation 6 to the extension. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read the last section. 9 SENATOR LARKIN: Lay it aside 10 temporarily. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 12 bill aside temporarily. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 1430, substituted earlier today, by member of 15 the Assembly Parment, Assembly Print 5816-A, an 16 act to amend the County Law, in relation to the 17 allocation. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 19 a local fiscal impact note at the desk. 20 Secretary will read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 24 roll. 25 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6336 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1433, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 4707-A, an 6 act to amend the Social Services Law, in 7 relation to limiting the method of payment. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 9 will read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1435, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 4798-B, an 20 act to enact the Ithaca City School District 21 public construction. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the last section. 24 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 25 act shall take effect immediately. 6337 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 2 roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6 is passed. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 1437, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 5435, an 9 act to amend the Family Court Act, in relation 10 to violations. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 14 act shall take effect in 90 days. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 Senator Larkin. 22 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 23 can we now return to motions and resolutions. I 24 believe you have a privileged resolution at the 25 desk -- would you just read the title -- by 6338 1 Senator Rath. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 3 a privileged resolution by Senator Rath at the 4 desk. Secretary will read the title. 5 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Rath, 6 Legislative Resolution commending Dr. Stuart 7 Steiner, president of Genesee Community College 8 upon the occasion of his designation by the 9 Association of Community College Trustees as a 10 recipient of the 1997 Northeastern United States 11 Chief Executive Officer Award. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 13 is on the resolution. All those in favor 14 signify by saying aye. 15 (Response of "Aye.") 16 Opposed nay. 17 (There was no response. ) 18 The resolution is adopted. 19 Senator Larkin, as long as we're 20 on motions and resolutions, we do have two 21 motions we'd like to take up at this time. Is 22 that O.K. with you? 23 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, Mr. 24 President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6339 1 Marcellino. 2 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 3 President, on behalf of Senator Farley, on page 4 number 7, I offer the following amendments to 5 Calendar Number 275, Senate Print Number 2339, 6 and ask that said bill retain its place on the 7 Third Reading Calendar. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 9 Amendments to 275 are received and adopted and 10 the bill will retain its place on the Third 11 Reading Calendar. 12 Senator Marcellino. 13 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 14 Mr. President. 15 On behalf behalf of Senator 16 Leibell, I wish to call up his bill, Print 17 Number 3580, recalled from the Assembly which is 18 now at the desk. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will read. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 507, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 3580, an 23 act to amend the Private Housing Finance Law. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Marcellino. 6340 1 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 2 President, I move to reconsider the vote by 3 which this bill was passed. 4 (The Secretary called the roll on 5 reconsideration.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Marcellino. 9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. 10 President, I now offer the following 11 amendments. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 13 Amendments are received and adopted. 14 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Padavan. 17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President, 18 I'd like, by unanimous consent, to be recorded 19 in the negative on a bill that passed earlier 20 today, Calendar 855, Senate Bill 3307-B. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 22 objection, hearing no objection, Senator Padavan 23 will be recorded in the negative on Calendar 24 Number 855. 25 Senator Larkin. 6341 1 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 2 can we now return to our original calendar and 3 start with Calendar Number 78. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 5 return to the controversial reading of the 6 original calendar of the day, Calendar 59, 7 beginning with Calendar Number 78, but before we 8 do that, we'll recognize Senator Trunzo. 9 SENATOR TRUNZO: Mr. President, 10 there will be an immediate meeting of the Civil 11 Service and Pension Committee meeting - 12 Committee in the Conference Room, Room 332. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Immediate 14 meeting of the Civil Service and Pensions 15 Committee. Immediate meeting of the Civil 16 Service and Pensions Committee in the Majority 17 Conference Room, Room 332. 18 Secretary will read Calendar 19 Number 78. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 78, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 731-A, an 22 act to legalize, ratify and confirm the acts and 23 proceedings of the board of education of the 24 Mexico Central School District. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6342 1 Larkin. 2 SENATOR LARKIN: Is there a 3 message, Mr. President? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 5 a message of necessity for Calendar Number 78 at 6 the desk. 7 SENATOR LARKIN: Move to accept 8 the message. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 10 to accept the message of necessity. All those 11 in favor signify by saying aye. 12 (Response of "Aye.") 13 Opposed nay. 14 (There was no response.) 15 The message is accepted. 16 There is a local fiscal impact 17 note at the desk also. Secretary will read the 18 last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 24 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6343 1 is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 124, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 738-A, an 4 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to 5 prohibiting. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Johnson, an explanation of Calendar Number 124 8 has been requested. 9 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 10 this bill is intended to amend the Education Law 11 in relation to prohibiting financing of 12 political organizations through mandatory 13 student fees by state universities and 14 colleges. 15 This will assure that money 16 raised by students is spent for student 17 benefits, not for any other organization which 18 has its own agenda. It does permit, however, 19 optional fees to be paid by students who choose 20 to support these types of organizations if that 21 is approved by a majority vote of the students 22 voting. 23 So I think it's one that clears 24 up a lot of problems that we've had for years 25 with a particular organization and still lets 6344 1 them exist if they choose to do so but not 2 mandatorily being paid by activity fees of 3 students on the campuses. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Oppenheimer. 6 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I think I'm 7 going to borrow a statement from one of the 8 Senators who said earlier today, if it ain't 9 fixed don't break -- if it ain't broken, don't 10 fix it. 11 Yes, there are, as Senator 12 Johnson said, mandatory student activity fees 13 for all kinds of extracurricular activity on 14 campus, social and educational, recreational, 15 cultural, but the fact is that if a student does 16 not choose to see those fees put into a 17 particular activity, they can request a portion 18 of the fees back. 19 I think this would change the 20 nature of all extracurricular activities on 21 campuses and would really prevent the young 22 people from advocating their opinions on a 23 variety of public policy issues. I think this 24 is critical if we want these young people to 25 learn how democracy works and how better than to 6345 1 take stands on public policy issues and try and 2 work through them. 3 I think it's enormously important 4 to our democratic form of government, and we 5 always are talking about informed citizenry, and 6 we also are always talking about how our young 7 people have been turned off by the system and 8 many of them are not voting. Now, if we keep 9 talking about this and then say, on the other 10 hand, the activities they do on campus 11 concerning public policy and advocacy are not 12 worthy and should be restrained, I think we're 13 giving a terrible message. 14 I think we should be encouraging 15 this kind of activity, not discouraging it, and 16 -- and lastly, I would say that the students, 17 they decide how they're going to spend their own 18 money. It is their student government who 19 decides every four years when all of the various 20 organizations are enumerated, and there is a 21 detailed discussion of how the money will be 22 spent, so it's -- you know, we don't permit 23 their own student government to determine how 24 they should spend the money that they are 25 putting up, the students are putting up. It has 6346 1 nothing to do with our money, it is student 2 money. Then I think we are giving them a 3 message that democracy is not working and that 4 we are not interested in the opinions of young 5 people. 6 I'll be voting no. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Any other 8 Senator wishing to speak on the bill? Senator 9 Stavisky. 10 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 11 this bill comes up periodically. We've debated 12 it on the floor several years ago. It's been 13 considered in committee, and it has been held. 14 I don't know why we seek to resurrect this 15 notion which is a "get NYPIRG" agenda. If 16 someone has difficulty in accepting the 17 positions of NYPIRG, so be it, but if there is 18 no hidden agenda such as getting NYPIRG, then we 19 should also consider that. 20 I don't believe there is any 21 reason for presenting this bill except somewhere 22 in the distant past, NYPIRG may have offended a 23 member of the Legislature. I am not seeking to 24 undermine anyone's opposition to NYPIRG, but 25 this bill goes much further. It sends a 6347 1 chilling message to many organizations that are 2 on campus. It sends a chilling message to 3 organizations such as student newspapers, campus 4 radio stations, cultural and religious groups, 5 speaker programs, ecology clubs and public 6 interest research groups, all of which are in 7 the business of trying to encourage students to 8 participate, not to be turned off by the 9 system. 10 I don't believe this is a well 11 thought out bill. I don't believe that we 12 should be considering this kind of legislation 13 because someone's feelings may have been upset 14 in the past by virtue of a position that NYPIRG 15 may have taken. In that case, the sponsor 16 perhaps could meet with NYPIRG, could discuss 17 the reasons for the submission of this piece of 18 legislation, but we in the Senate should not 19 supersede what is voted upon by the students 20 themselves as mandatory activity fees, and we 21 should take -- take it easy. We should not be 22 jumping to the conclusion that this should be 23 discontinued. 24 The source of funding is 25 important. No one would presume to take any 6348 1 part of the funding away from a group that is 2 performing a worthwhile function. We should 3 not. We should not, in my opinion, define 4 public policy issues as anything that affects 5 the -- that affects the -- the -- that affects 6 the rights of the students to determine which 7 organization they are willing to support. 8 This is micromanagement of the 9 State University of New York. It's 10 micromanagement of the four-year institutions, 11 the two-year community colleges, and may even 12 have an impact on schools such as Syracuse 13 University which does have a part that is 14 involved in the State University system, the 15 College of Forestry. 16 I think that those of us who are 17 supportive of the university should not be 18 misled in supporting this legislation. It's a 19 mistake. I hope the sponsor will reconsider his 20 effort to have this pass. It's a one-house 21 bill, I believe. This is a bill that has never 22 been passed in any form in the New York State 23 Assembly, and I'm not asking the Senate to 24 forego its own position, but rather I ask the 25 Senate to avoid micromanaging the State 6349 1 University. 2 There are new appointments that 3 have been recommended by the Governor of this 4 state to the Board of Trustees of the State 5 University system, and even those new members 6 who are now in a majority on the SUNY trustee 7 board have not asked us to do this. Why should 8 we? Why should we not hold our fire, keep our 9 cool? No disrespect to our presiding officer, 10 and avoid the micromanagement and I think the 11 destructive micromanagement that is inherent in 12 this bill. 13 I will be voting in the negative 14 and I hope my colleagues, some of them, will 15 join me. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Abate. 18 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, would 19 Senator Johnson yield to a couple questions? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Johnson, do you yield to Senator Abate? 22 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Mr. 23 President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 yields. 6350 1 SENATOR ABATE: Senator, I've 2 been told that 25 years ago CUNY and SUNY 3 authorized the mandatory fee, student fee. What 4 was their rationale for the institution of this 5 or the initiation of this mandatory fee? 6 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, Senator, 7 back in those days a fellow named Ralph Nader 8 was running around organizing a lot of political 9 activities and one of the things he decided to 10 do was organize students in a political group to 11 advance his agenda. 12 SENATOR ABATE: Mr. President, 13 I'm having a hard time hearing. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I think 15 your point is very well taken. Excuse me, 16 Senator Johnson. 17 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, is 18 this one any better? No? 19 I said back in those years Ralph 20 Nader was actively organizing political groups 21 to advance his agenda in the nation and in the 22 legislatures and the federal Congress as well, 23 and NYPIRG was an outgrowth of the Nader 24 movement where they decided to organize students 25 to advance their agenda, and that's the origin 6351 1 of NYPIRG. 2 SENATOR ABATE: But, Senator 3 Johnson, would you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 5 SENATOR ABATE: But it's my 6 understanding, and please correct me, that it 7 was put in place to generate more opportunity 8 for extracurricular activities, for more 9 involvement in activity upon the student to 10 organize, and as an outgrowth, can you tell me 11 in the CUNY and SUNY systems what organizations 12 have been formed as a result of this mandatory 13 fee? Certainly not just NYPIRG or Nader 14 organizations. Have there been other 15 organizations that have been formed as a result 16 of the mandatory fee? 17 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I can 18 only tell you that there are 2,000 lobbyists 19 registered in this state. The only lobbyist 20 organization getting money from student activity 21 fees is NYPIRG. 22 SENATOR ABATE: But under this 23 fee schedule, aren't there NAACP chapters and 24 Hillel chapters and religious chapters and 25 Catholic chapters, and MADD and RID and crime 6352 1 victims groups and women's groups that are 2 funded through this student fee? 3 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I -- I 4 can't name the chapters, perhaps you can. The 5 significant thing is that this is an 6 organization which is a political organization 7 which I don't feel should be funded by student 8 activity fees. Nonetheless my bill doesn't 9 prohibit that. 10 My bill says it should be an 11 optional payment; it shouldn't be a part of your 12 mandatory student activity fee which, as you 13 know, Senator, if you don't pay you don't get 14 your grades, you don't get ready for next year 15 so you got to pay this. It's a $400 fee. If 16 you subtract the $7 out and pay 393, you will 17 not get your grades, you will not be registered 18 for the next class because you didn't pay NYPIRG 19 $7. That isn't fair; it isn't right; it isn't 20 democratic. 21 SENATOR ABATE: Will Senator 22 Johnson continue to yield? 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Johnson, do you continue to yield? 25 SENATOR ABATE: But, am I 6353 1 correct, Senator Johnson, this bill doesn't say 2 NYPIRG, it says political organizations, so 3 beyond NYPIRG what organizations would be 4 covered? Could it cover just about any organi 5 zation that's involved in voter registration or 6 is involved in, for instance, a tuition hike 7 rally or demonstration, or invites a legislator 8 to their meeting? 9 I don't see this as just a NYPIRG 10 issue. It seems to encompass many organizations 11 would be covered by this bill. 12 SENATOR JOHNSON: I don't -- I 13 don't believe that's correct, Senator. I think 14 you're misinterpreting it. 15 SENATOR ABATE: So this bill only 16 deals with NYPIRG, no other organization? 17 SENATOR JOHNSON: That's the - 18 that's the organization which is involved in the 19 political lobbying, fraudulent science, mis 20 education of the public and pronouncement of 21 their ideologies that are detrimental to the 22 greater society of this state. 23 SENATOR ABATE: But by your 24 definition, if Hillel was involved and lobbied 25 legislators because they wanted a hate crimes 6354 1 bill, they wanted the bill that's been before 2 this house for many years, it doesn't come out 3 of committee, and let's stay Hillel and the 4 Catholic organizations lobbied for that bill. 5 They would be covered by this -- by this 6 proposed legislation, am I correct? 7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I'm 8 not discussing that legislation. I'm talking - 9 I'm not discussing whatever organization you're 10 referring to. Quite frankly, NYPIRG has been a 11 -- a source of concern for years and we're only 12 talking about primarily political organizations. 13 We're not talking about the Catholic Church or 14 any other group, primarily political 15 organizations and you should know, students are 16 being involved in activities which deliver 17 fraudulent reports, upon which improper public 18 action may very well be taken, legislative 19 action. 20 I have a letter here from Dr. 21 John Chamberlain, Professor, chairman of the 22 Department of Geology of Brooklyn College, and 23 he tells me, In September 1996 I sent you a 24 scholarly report which demonstrated that NYPIRG 25 falsified data in a study of New York's 6355 1 recycling capacity and I'd like to inform you 2 NYPIRG's research misconduct is more pervasive 3 after examining evidence in several NYPIRG 4 studies, and so forth -- it's a very long 5 letter, and they're saying here that CUNY has 6 failed to take action against NYPIRG and its 7 unfortunate reports, in trying to develop false 8 public policy based upon those reports. This is 9 signed by more than 50 members of Brooklyn 10 College, and they said regrettably that SUNY has 11 thus far failed to fulfill its oversight 12 responsibility or provide the chancellor 13 evidence that NYPIRG has falsified data, and 14 that the University maintains there is no need 15 for action on its part. 16 I might add, Senator, that they 17 say, the Legislature must get involved because 18 this organization is doing wrong things for the 19 people of the state of New York, wrong things 20 for the students. All I'm saying is we 21 shouldn't force students to pay for an 22 organization which is permitting so many 23 improper activities. As a matter of fact, 24 Senator, it's been very hard to get rid of 25 them. In 1994 they were voted out, out of 6356 1 funding in the Brooklyn College, and yet the 2 trustees -- as was asked by someone -- the 3 trustees reversed that and would not permit the 4 vote to be taken, I believe, so they didn't even 5 have the democratic right to vote yes or no on 6 NYPIRG. 7 All we're saying is we're going 8 to give them a democratic right to choose to 9 contribute or not contribute to this 10 organization. The fact that they're doing bad 11 things is just a good reason not to fund them 12 mandatorily, but it doesn't mean if people who 13 agree with them and if they don't mind the false 14 science and mis-education they're giving to 15 youngsters, that they can contribute to them. 16 They shouldn't be forced to do it. 17 SENATOR ABATE: On the bill. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Abate. Senator Abate, on the bill. 20 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. We may be 21 looking at different bills. I don't see 22 anywhere in the bill that talks about NYPIRG and 23 only NYPIRG. It describes political 24 organization as any political organization 25 that's directly or indirectly concerned with the 6357 1 forming of policy or political campaigns, 2 engaging in lobbying, et cetera, et cetera. 3 That is broad; it is vague. It 4 could entail all student activities, because I 5 dare say what we want to encourage through this 6 student fee is people getting involved, being 7 more knowledgeable about what happens in public 8 and civic affairs, whether it's through their 9 religious organizations or gender or racial 10 organizations, whatever it is, that they have a 11 better understanding of what's happening in the 12 world around them. 13 So it may involve inviting a 14 legislator. It may involve voter registration. 15 It may involve a student demonstration and under 16 this bill, just about every organization that a 17 student could be involved in would be covered by 18 the definition under the bill, of political 19 organizations. 20 Why are we getting involved in 21 this issue when there's so many critical issues 22 at hand at SUNY and CUNY? The issues around 23 tuition, how they're going to finance 24 themselves, staffing, standards, implementation 25 of those standards, even rethinking SUNY. 6358 1 The Governor said, Let's give 2 more autonomy to campuses. What we're saying 3 today, we don't trust students. The students 4 can't decide how they want their student fee to 5 be utilized. They vote on this. That's called 6 democracy. We allow students to vote. We think 7 students are capable of learning, but we're 8 saying to them they're not capable of deciding 9 how their fees should be utilized. 10 I think it's wrong. I think the 11 state Senate should be involved in much more 12 important activity. So what we should be doing 13 is encouraging student involvement, giving them 14 an autonomy to make important decisions about 15 their lives and how they want to grow and learn 16 because we want young people to learn. What 17 we're saying through this bill is we want them 18 to go to classes and complete their classes and 19 not interact in a meaningful way through 20 extracurricular activities. 21 I think this is a misguided 22 bill. It's misdirected and we should allow 23 students in a democratic way to decide their own 24 destiny. I vote against the bill. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6359 1 Paterson. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 3 I don't want to belabor the point. I think that 4 Senator Abate made it very well. It just needs 5 to be restated and restated and it's the reason 6 that we're going to ask for a slow roll call on 7 this particular piece of legislation. There are 8 a lot of organizations -- Catholic organiza 9 tions, the Newman Society is one of them, Jewish 10 organizations, the Hillel society is one of 11 them, women's organizations, women, minority 12 organizations, black student unions, all types 13 of groups that have all types of points of view 14 which is what is really most exciting about - 15 about having that kind of discourse on college 16 campuses. It's very interesting to note that 17 back in the '60s which is a period of tremendous 18 student activity and vast disagreement in this 19 country on different points of view, but 20 interestingly enough at that period of time with 21 all of the public discourse, there was the 22 highest -- there were the lowest incidences of 23 dropout rates from schools and the highest 24 incidence of student involvement on those 25 issues. So just the disagreement on ideology 6360 1 does not necessarily -- is something that we 2 should actually be encouraging. 3 Now, Senator Johnson made some 4 charges against one of the organizations. He 5 said that they committed fraud. If that's the 6 case, I think that information needs to be taken 7 to a law enforcement agency and not transposed 8 through any bill to try to stop the advancement 9 of public policy, and, therefore, when I think 10 about all the organizations that would possibly 11 lose funding -- CUNY right now allows students 12 that if they're not interested in the New York 13 Public Interest Research Group, that they can 14 have that money returned to them and SUNY 15 conducts elections locally on the campuses to 16 determine where their funds are going to go as 17 we all, as taxpayers, live by the vote of the 18 majority and certainly around here we certainly 19 have learned to live by the vote of the 20 majority. So I am going to recommend a vote 21 against this legislation. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Johnson. 24 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, Mr. 25 President, I really have to correct a couple of 6361 1 misapprehensions that people share here. 2 First, I would like to correct 3 Senator Abate. It's probably my fault because 4 she must have the previous print, not the "A" 5 print. Our bill does not read "directly or 6 indirectly", "indirectly" was removed, so it 7 only deals with groups that are directly 8 involved in political activities such as NYPIRG, 9 would not include a lot of other organizations 10 to which you made reference. 11 Senator Oppenheimer says, if it 12 ain't broke, don't fix it. Well, I've been 13 receiving letters for several years about the 14 fraudulent research activities, and, Suzi, I can 15 give it to you because you're interested in 16 waters and bays and things like that, and the 17 research they put out is fraudulent and the 18 decisions have been made based upon the 19 fraudulent research and it's demonstrated here, 20 as I mentioned, by this letter from 50 21 professors. 22 I've received mail the past two 23 years about that. I think there's good reason 24 to suspect that NYPIRG is only a political 25 organization and their research is a cover for 6362 1 presenting ideological objectives that they'd 2 like to see enacted into legislation. I think 3 that's pretty well demonstrated. 4 If you want to show how democracy 5 works, Senator, you wouldn't require people to 6 show their support through student activity fees 7 organizations with which they disagree. As a 8 matter of fact, in last November in Wisconsin, 9 the U.S. District Court ruled that the 10 University of Wisconsin had violated the First 11 Amendment rights of three students when it 12 required them pay activity fees to subsidize 13 campus organizations with missions which they 14 opposed. 15 I think that's democracy, not 16 forcing them to support alien objectives, alien 17 objectives which are not familiar, not 18 compatible with your own views. You shouldn't 19 be forced to do that, so democracy means giving 20 people a chance if they want to, to contribute 21 to those organizations and that's what my bill 22 does. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Oppenheimer, why do you rise? 25 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I would ask 6363 1 a question of Senator Johnson. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Johnson, do you yield to a question from Senator 4 Oppenheimer? He yields. 5 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: It was my 6 understanding in New York State that if a 7 student objected -- granted the student fees are 8 mandatory, they are required, the student fees 9 -- and the student fees go to fund all kinds of 10 student activities, political, cultural, social, 11 but I -- it was my understanding that if a 12 student said, I do not support X organization, 13 that that amount of funding that went to that 14 organization from that student's fees would be 15 refunded to the student. 16 SENATOR JOHNSON: That would be 17 -- Senator Oppenheimer, that would be the 18 result of my bill, but that is not the case 19 presently. I think you've been misinformed. If 20 that were the case, the bill would not be before 21 us today. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the last section. 24 SENATOR JOHNSON: Also, I'm sorry 25 I don't want to prolong this. 6364 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 2 will read the last section. 3 SENATOR JOHNSON: I'll explain my 4 vote. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6 will read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 8 act shall take effect August 1st. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll.) 12 SENATOR GOLD: Slow roll call. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Slow roll 14 call has been requested. There are five 15 Senators in the chamber who are standing or 16 semi-standing who have requested it, so a slow 17 roll call being requested will be called. 18 Secretary will read the roll. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 20 SENATOR ABATE: No. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Alesi. 22 SENATOR ALESI: Yes. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Breslin. 24 SENATOR BRESLIN: No. 25 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno. 6365 1 (Affirmative indication. ) 2 Senator Connor. 3 (Negative indication. ) 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook. 5 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 DeFrancisco. 8 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator 10 Dollinger. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: No. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley. 13 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gentile. 15 SENATOR GENTILE: No. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Speaking for this 18 side of the aisle, I vote no. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator 20 Gonzalez. 21 (There was no response. ) 22 Senator Goodman. 23 (There was no response. ) 24 Senator Hannon. 25 (Affirmative indication. ) 6366 1 THE SECRETARY: Aye. 2 Senator Hoffmann. 3 SENATOR HOFFMANN: No. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Holland. 5 (Affirmative indication. ) 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Goodman, why do you rise? 8 SENATOR GOODMAN: Ask my name be 9 called, please. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 will read. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman. 13 SENATOR GOODMAN: Aye. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Continue 15 the roll call. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson. 17 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 18 to explain my vote. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Johnson, to explain his vote. 21 SENATOR JOHNSON: I would commend 22 to my city colleagues a New York Post editorial 23 of April 26th, 1997 entitled "NYPIRG's Fiction 24 Science" and it says among other things that, in 25 New York City Chancellor Ann Reynolds should 6367 1 conduct a probe of CUNY because of the $470,000 2 a year extracted from SUNY students against 3 their wishes. NYPIRG has an ideological ax to 4 grind and Reynolds should certainly pursue the 5 allegations brought by this professor and his 59 6 colleagues. 7 So I say, Senator, if you want to 8 be on the right track, you City Senators, vote 9 for this bill. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Johnson will be recorded in the affirmative. 12 Continue to call the roll 13 slowly. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger. 15 SENATOR KRUGER: No. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 17 SENATOR KUHL: Aye. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lachman. 19 SENATOR LACHMAN: No. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack. 21 SENATOR LACK: Aye. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin. 23 (There was no response. ) 24 Senator LaValle. 25 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye. 6368 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell. 2 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator 4 Leichter. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: No. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy 7 excused. 8 Senator Libous. 9 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese. 11 (There was no response. ) 12 Senator Marcellino. 13 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi 15 excused. 16 Senator Markowitz. 17 (There was no response. ) 18 Senator Maziarz. 19 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Meier. 21 SENATOR MEIER: Yes. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez. 23 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 24 can we get a little order in here? We can't hear 25 the roll call. 6369 1 (Negative indication.) 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Larkin, your point is very well taken. For the 4 benefit of the members, we are not proceeding on 5 the roll call until there is some order in the 6 chamber. So Senator Hoffmann, Senator Smith 7 over here on this side, we have the members 8 please take their chairs. Staff, if you have 9 conversations, take them out of the chamber. 10 Senator Gold, I'd be happy to 11 talk to you about your golf game but would you 12 please stop the conversations? We'd like some 13 quiet. 14 Secretary will continue to call 15 the roll. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Montgomery. 18 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula. 20 SENATOR NANULA: No. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator 22 Nozzolio. 23 (There was no response. ) 24 Senator Onorato. 25 SENATOR ONORATO: No. 6370 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2 Oppenheimer. 3 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan. 5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 Paterson. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: No. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present. 10 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 12 (There was no response. ) 13 Senator Rosado. 14 SENATOR ROSADO: No. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 16 SENATOR SALAND: Aye. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sampson. 18 SENATOR SAMPSON: No. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator 20 Santiago. 21 (There was no response. ) 22 Senator Seabrook. 23 SENATOR SEABROOK: No. 24 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward. 25 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes. 6371 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 4 SENATOR SMITH: No. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano. 6 SENATOR SPANO: No. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Stachowski. 9 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: No. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator 11 Stafford. 12 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator 14 Stavisky. 15 SENATOR STAVISKY: No. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo. 17 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully. 19 SENATOR TULLY: Aye. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella. 21 (There was no response. ) 22 Senator Volker. 23 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 24 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon. 25 (Negative indication. ) 6372 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright. 2 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 absentees. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator 6 Gonzalez. 7 (There was no response. ) 8 Senator Maltese. 9 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator 11 Nozzolio. 12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye. 13 SENATOR STAVISKY: Results. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: We have the 15 results. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Skelos, we're not through with the absentee call 18 yet. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath. 20 (There was no response. ) 21 Senator Santiago. 22 (There was no response. ) 23 Senator Velella. 24 (There was no response. ) 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6373 1 Paterson, why do you rise? 2 SENATOR PATERSON: To request the 3 results, Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yeah, 5 we're just trying to determine whether or not 6 there were any other members -- I understand 7 Senator Santiago had an emergency call out of 8 the chamber -- Senator Gonzalez, several 9 members, but if you're requesting it, Senator 10 Paterson, Secretary will read the results. 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31, nays 23. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. Senator Larkin, what's your pleasure? 14 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 15 can we return to regular Calendar Number 280. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 17 will read. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 280, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 2514-A, an 20 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 24 act shall take effect immediately. 25 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Explanation. 6374 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Johnson, an explanation of Calendar Number 280 3 has been requested by Senator Oppenheimer. 4 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 5 this bill would amend the real property law in 6 relation to liability for environmental clean-up 7 on real property acquired by a tax district or 8 an in rem foreclosure. 9 Right now -- right now, the 10 municipalities have been precluded from taking 11 this property because they don't want to be 12 responsible for environmental damages that might 13 be expensive -- require an expensive clean-up. 14 All this does is say that they can take it and 15 they're not responsible for that clean-up, but 16 it doesn't eliminate the responsibility of the 17 previous owner from whom they've taken it. 18 There is an outlandish example in 19 the city of Schenectady, and I'm sure there are 20 many others, where taxes are owed since 1986 21 exceeding $25,000. The city cannot take the 22 property in rem because -- because they don't 23 want to have the responsibility for the clean-up 24 which still would remain with the previous owner 25 so they haven't been able to take the property. 6375 1 Meanwhile they've had to take that, every year 2 pay the taxes for the villages and towns and the 3 schools in their respective areas, but yet they 4 don't have any control over that property, so 5 what we'd like to do is let them foreclose on 6 this property so an owner cannot enjoy the 7 benefit of using this polluted property year 8 after year; he doesn't clean it up; nobody can 9 do anything about it. 10 In this case, the county would 11 take it over, pay the taxes to the various 12 municipalities and then do what they can about 13 getting it cleaned up by the next owner or 14 pursuing action. But to preclude in rem 15 proceedings with this scenario of being afraid 16 of the property, is very detrimental and the 17 fact that the city of New York, the City 18 Council, the Conference of Mayors, all the 19 counties and associations, bar associations, 20 treasurers, county directors, county attorneys, 21 and so forth are all in favor of this bill to 22 clear up a situation which is intolerable at the 23 present time. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Oppenheimer. 6376 1 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I -- I 2 appreciate the local point of view, Senator 3 Johnson, but I think the other side should also 4 be presented in this issue. 5 The local government has a choice 6 in taking and going -- taking in rem parcels. 7 They don't have to take them, and if they take a 8 -- a parcel that has contamination or 9 pollution, they know that they are taking that 10 parcel with contamination or pollution right on 11 the property, and to exempt the taxing district 12 from the obligation of cleaning up this 13 property, I think, is definitely the wrong way 14 to go. It simply under -- undercuts the 15 restoration programs that we are trying to put 16 in place with the Clean Water/Clean Air Bond 17 Act. 18 I think exempting tax districts 19 from third-party liability for injuries or for 20 property damage which is caused by the 21 contamination of the site simply says that, 22 Neighbor, we are not interested in protecting 23 you from the exposure to these toxins, and I - 24 I think it is the wrong way for government to be 25 handling sites that are toxin. They should be 6377 1 handling them in a responsible and concerned way 2 for the citizens who live in that area, and 3 taking away the liability is -- that has always 4 been a very strong incentive for mitigating 5 hazards, and this bill would remove a very 6 important motivation for the tax district to 7 manage the property, the contaminated property 8 in what I consider a reasonable manner. 9 I'll be voting no. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 11 -- Senator Leichter. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 13 Johnson yield, please? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Johnson, do you yield to a question from Senator 16 Leichter? 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 18 Johnson, under your bill, what happens if a 19 municipality after having acquired the parcel 20 now sells it to a third person? Would that third 21 person not have the protection and the immunity 22 from liability that the municipality had? 23 SENATOR JOHNSON: Definitely not, 24 Senator. He does not acquire any immunity as a 25 result of this. This only deals with the - 6378 1 with the county that takes the property over, or 2 the city. It does not insulate the following 3 succeeding owner from any responsibility for the 4 contamination. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 6 Johnson, if you'd continue to yield, please. 7 I'm not -- I'm not sure your answer is correct, 8 Senator, because you've now interposed in the 9 chain of ownership an owner who has no liability 10 or responsibility for clean-up. That owner 11 passes along the rights and liabilities that the 12 owner has. That owner doesn't have a 13 responsibility, or liability for clean-up. 14 It would seem to me that the 15 purchaser from the taxing district similarly 16 would not have an obligation or liability for 17 the condition of this property. 18 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, I know 19 that's an opinion which has been expressed by 20 the Trial Lawyers, but I don't believe that's 21 the correct opinion. 22 Yeah. Senator, I personally have 23 had some experience with a case in my district 24 where a new owner was held responsible at the 25 same time they went back to the previous owner 6379 1 who they're after to get the majority of the 2 money, so this does not insulate the previous 3 owner or any succeeding owners who buy 4 contaminated property from their obligation to 5 remediate the situation. This only protects the 6 county who takes the property. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 8 if Senator Johnson continues to yield, please. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Johnson, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 yields. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 15 think your bill is certainly clear as to the 16 previous owner. It would be a very simple 17 matter to make it clear that succeeding owners 18 do not possess that same immunity from 19 liability. All you'd have to do is just write 20 it into the bill. I don't believe it is, and I 21 think you've left an issue. Frankly, you say 22 the Trial Lawyers have raised this problem with 23 you. Nobody raised it with me, but it just 24 sprung at me reading the bill. 25 So I think that it's -- it's an 6380 1 issue that's going to be raised. I'm not sure 2 that that would cure the bill as far as Senator 3 Oppenheimer and I and others are concerned, but 4 it would certainly avoid, it seems to me what is 5 an even bigger loophole from environmental laws 6 by having succeeding owners now also enjoy the 7 immunity from liability. 8 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I 9 could agree with you but -- if I agreed with 10 you, if I thought your argument was correct, I 11 would certainly hold this bill and amend it. I 12 don't believe your argument is correct, but by 13 the same token, I don't want to take a chance in 14 doing that because I certainly think -- well, 15 first of all I say as a lawyer you probably know 16 whether you have real estate or not, that nobody 17 is buying any property these days without an 18 environmental assessment. So it's not likely 19 they would buy it and be unaware of it and think 20 that they could possess and never clean it up 21 and not be responsible. They are responsible. 22 Succeeding owners are responsible. Even banks 23 are responsible if they foreclose property which 24 is polluted. They have a responsibility to 25 clean it up, so everyone knows that's the way 6381 1 the system works, and I don't think they'd be 2 out of it but, quite frankly, I'd like to have a 3 bill that would -- that would pass both houses 4 without any hang-ups, and I think perhaps right 5 now, Senator, we'll lay it aside for the moment 6 so that you and I can explore this more fully. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you very 8 much, Senator Johnson. 9 I'm really not, you know, urging 10 you to do this, because even if you did it, I 11 would have problems with the bill, but I think 12 that it would cure, to my mind, what could be a 13 real loophole and something that I think others 14 will look at and might discourage people from 15 supporting the bill or supporting this concept. 16 I mean in some respects, I can understand, we 17 want to avoid placing a burden on taxing 18 authorities. They want to take property that 19 may be in rem on foreclosure, and so on. Why 20 make them clean up? 21 That's your -- your point, 22 Senator Johnson, and I think it has some 23 credibility, but I -- I think the other argument 24 is really more persuasive. It was well made by 25 Senator Oppenheimer, which is that we have a 6382 1 great public and social concern to get this 2 property cleaned up, and one way of doing it is 3 by saying anybody that owns this property, this 4 property which is a danger to the health of 5 people, is going to have to clean it up, and 6 that should include taxing districts. I mean 7 who are taxing districts? They're the people. 8 Who's affected by contaminated land? It's the 9 people. 10 So I would -- I would say to you 11 that really, exempting taxing districts from 12 what should be an across-the-board obligation if 13 you are the owner of contaminated land, you owe 14 it to your neighbors, you owe it to your 15 community to see that that property is cleaned 16 up. I would -- I would apply it to taxing 17 districts. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 19 will - 20 SENATOR JOHNSON: May I respond? 21 Senator, that responsibility for the clean-up 22 still resides with the previous owner. No 23 subsequent owner is going to buy it when it's 24 contaminated and think they can use it without 25 cleaning it up. 6383 1 Senator, in view of the fact the 2 city of New York, the city of Schenectady, 3 Conference of Mayors, counties, Association of 4 Counties and Towns have all read this bill and 5 feel it's appropriate, I don't feel that they're 6 going to let anybody off the hook for cleaning 7 up the property because we say the county can 8 take this property back without incurring any 9 liability doesn't really say that it doesn't 10 have to be cleaned up from now on; so I think 11 it's a misinterpretation of the bill and in this 12 case, I'd just call the bill. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 14 will read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 18 roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Record 21 the negatives and announce the results. 22 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 23 the negative on Calendar Number 280 are Senators 24 Abate, Breslin, Connor, Dollinger, Gentile, 25 LaValle, Leibell, Leichter, Montgomery, Onorato, 6384 1 Oppenheimer, Rosado, Sampson, Seabrook and 2 Stavisky. Ayes 43, nays 15. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 4 is passed. 5 Secretary will continue to call 6 the controversial calendar commencing next with 7 Calendar Number 498. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 498, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 403-A, an 10 act to amend the Executive Law. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Mr. 22 President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Oppenheimer, why do you rise? 25 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I would 6385 1 like the record to show that I wasn't in the 2 chamber when a particular bill passed on June 3 4th. That would be bill 5404, Calendar Number 4 1130. If I had been in the chamber, I would 5 have voted no. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 record will so reflect, Senator Oppenheimer. 8 Secretary will continue to call 9 the controversial calendar. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 633, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly 12 Committee on Rules, Assembly Print 8009-A, an 13 act to amend Chapter 521 of the Laws of 1994. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 Senate bill was high. The Assembly bill is not 16 high. It's before the house. Secretary will 17 read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 21 roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 25 is passed. 6386 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 982, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2703-B, an 3 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 4 relation to authorizing. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Home rule 6 message is at the desk. Secretary will read the 7 last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 11 roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 15 is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1135, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 2244-A, an 18 act to amend the General Municipal Law and the 19 Town Law, in relation to the practice of 20 forestry. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will read the last section. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Senator Kuhl, an explanation of your bill has 25 been asked for. 6387 1 SENATOR KUHL: Thank you, Mr. 2 President. 3 This is a very simply explained 4 bill. The bill essentially allows for the 5 continuation of the practice of harvesting 6 timber in the state of New York without the 7 unnecessary and overburdensome interference by 8 local municipalities. 9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you 10 for that in-depth explanation. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Read the last section. 13 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No, I - 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Oh, 15 I misunderstood. I apologize, Senator. 16 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I meant to 17 be funny. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Can 19 only try. 20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I guess 21 it's who defines the language here. The bill 22 would prohibit state agencies and local 23 government -- it would prohibit state agencies 24 from adopting regulations that affect forestry 25 practices that are, quote/unquote, "recognized" 6388 1 by the industry. Unfortunately, the determiner 2 of what is a "recognized", quote/unquote, 3 practice or procedure is apparently the forestry 4 products industry itself, so we are saying, 5 Industry, mind yourself, and do not let 6 constraints of local government interfere with 7 your -- your practices, because this distinctly 8 limits the ability of local government - 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Excuse me, Senator. Are you speaking on the 11 bill? 12 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Yes, I am. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Senator Oppenheimer is speaking on the bill. 15 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Sorry. 16 It distinctly says that local 17 governments may not unreasonably burden the 18 cultivation and harvesting of trees. It seems 19 to be unreasonably restrictive of what local 20 authorities can do in regard to forestry 21 practices. 22 I don't understand why the 23 measure is -- is required. I have to assume 24 that some local governments are -- are being 25 more restrictive than the forestry industry 6389 1 would like them to be, but I think that the 2 legislative intent section here endorses 3 forestry practices and forest management as 4 environmentally sound. However, many forestry 5 practices are not considered so terribly sound 6 by the environmental community because they lead 7 to soil erosion and they lead -- it leads to 8 siltation in streams and rivers, and often leads 9 to destruction of fish and wildlife habitat. It 10 leads to watershed damage occasionally, and to 11 flooding. 12 So I think it's a very healthy 13 thing that -- that government is involved and is 14 trying to preserve the land as best it can in 15 consideration of the needs of the forestry 16 industry as long as it is also environmentally 17 sound. 18 So I will voting no, and I would 19 say that there are many memos in opposition to 20 this particular bill from the Alliance for 21 Consumer Rights, from the Citizen Campaign for 22 the Environment, from the Adirondack Council, 23 and a couple of smokestacks from Environmental 24 Advocates/EPL. 25 I'll be voting no. 6390 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Senator Kuhl. 3 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, just briefly, 4 and I, like some other Senators, I realize this 5 is the last day, but I did want to correct one, 6 perhaps, misunderstanding that Senator 7 Oppenheimer had was, and she mentioned that this 8 prohibited state agencies from having control, 9 and that's not true. This bill only affects 10 local municipalities' impact on this industry 11 and this bill comes from experience where some 12 localities have, in fact, shut down completely 13 any harvesting of timber products in those 14 municipalities. 15 Certainly that's not fair given 16 the outline and diversity of the economics in 17 this state. Our state is tremendously occupied 18 with timber, and it is a very big economic 19 industry in this state which needs to be 20 preserved and is actively being cultivated. 21 What you didn't say, Senator, is 22 there are a number of people like the Empire 23 State Products Association which supports this 24 bill. The Farm Bureau of the state of New York 25 supports this bill. The Association of Towns 6391 1 takes no position on this bill. The Association 2 of -- the New York State Conference of Mayors 3 takes no position in opposition to the bill, so 4 the very people who this piece of legislation 5 would have an impact on don't have an objection 6 to the bill because they recognize the language 7 in the amended version allows for a reasonable 8 ness and not an unreasonableness as far as their 9 activities as it takes on these individuals, and 10 the other thing and perhaps the most important 11 part of this bill is it only really affects 12 those private property owners, doesn't impact 13 public ownership at all. It's those people who 14 own and want to cultivate their property in 15 growing timber and who want to make a growing 16 enterprise out of it. It simply says you'll be 17 allowed to do that on your own property without 18 interference coming from the localities. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Senator Kuhl, will you yield to Senator 21 Oppenheimer? 22 SENATOR KUHL: Certainly. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 24 does. 25 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Just two 6392 1 short questions. Who determines what is 2 "reasonable"? 3 SENATOR KUHL: I think it's 4 already pre-determined, Senator, by those 5 overriding issues and requirements and 6 regulations that the state imposes on the 7 industry. 8 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: But it is 9 in effect - 10 SENATOR KUHL: So things like - 11 things like, if you would, complete -- what do 12 they call it, cross-cutting without dealing with 13 erosion. That's already controlled by the state 14 agencies, Department of Environmental 15 Conservation. That would continue. 16 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: And if the 17 Senator will yield again. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Senator, do you yield to another question? 20 SENATOR KUHL: Absolutely. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 22 yields, Senator. 23 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: The vast 24 majority of our forests in New York State are 25 under private control, are they not? 6393 1 SENATOR KUHL: The major 2 percentage, yes, private property. The property 3 in New York is owned by private individuals, 4 yes. 5 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Right, but 6 my point is that most forests are privately 7 held? 8 SENATOR KUHL: Those that are not 9 currently under control, I think it's roughly 92 10 percent is privately owned; about 8 percent is 11 publicly owned. 12 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you, 13 Senator. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Any 15 other Senator wishing to be heard? 16 Read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Call the roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Record the negatives and announce the results. 24 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 25 the negative on Calendar Number 1135 are 6394 1 Senators Breslin, Connor, Dollinger, Gentile, 2 Gold, Goodman, Hannon, Kruger, LaValle, Leibell, 3 Leichter, Nanula, Onorato, Oppenheimer, 4 Paterson, Sampson, Seabrook, Spano, Stachowski, 5 Stavisky and Tully. Ayes 37, nays 21. 6 SENATOR NANULA: Mr. President. 7 THE SECRETARY: Also Senator 8 Padavan. Ayes 36, nays 22. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Senator Nanula, why do you rise? 11 SENATOR NANULA: Mr. President, I 12 would like to request I should say, unanimous 13 consent to be recorded in the negative on 14 Calendar Number 280. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: We 16 just have to announce the results and pass this 17 particular bill. 18 SENATOR NANULA: Thank you, Mr. 19 President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 21 bill is passed. Senator Nanula. I apologize. 22 SENATOR NANULA: Thank you, Mr. 23 President. 24 I'd like to request unanimous 25 consent to be recorded in the negative on 6395 1 Calendar Number 280. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Without objection, Senator Nanula will be 4 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 5 280. 6 SENATOR NANULA: Thank you. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Senator Hannon. 9 SENATOR HANNON: I'd also like to 10 to be recorded in the negative on Calendar 11 Number 280. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Without objection, Senator Hannon will be 14 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 15 280. 16 Senator Rath, I'm sorry, why do 17 you rise? 18 SENATOR RATH: Yes, Mr. 19 President. I request that the record should 20 reflect that when bill number -- Calendar Number 21 124 went through, I was out of the chamber on 22 Senate business, and I'd like to be recorded in 23 the affirmative. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 25 record will show reflect -- so reflect. 6396 1 Senator Larkin. 2 SENATOR LARKIN: Would you now 3 call Calendar Number 1396 for Senator Maltese. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Secretary will read Calendar Number 1396. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1396, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 1173, an 8 act to amend the Retirement and Social Security 9 Law. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Senator Maltese, an explanation has been 13 requested. 14 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President, 15 this is an act to amend the Retirement and 16 Social Security Law, in relation to the return 17 of member contributions. The purpose is to 18 allow Tier II and III New York City correction 19 officers below the rank of captain who 20 participate in the 20-year improved benefit 21 retirement plan to withdraw their contributions 22 when they cease to be members of such plan 23 regardless of their length of service. 24 The contributions that are made 25 under the 20-year improved benefit retirement 6397 1 plan are designed to provide an enhanced pension 2 benefit upon retirement as a correction officer 3 below the rank of captain. The pension benefit 4 that may be received by an individual who leaves 5 this plan regardless of reason or time in 6 service, is determined by other provisions of 7 the Retirement or Social Security Law and are 8 not dependent upon these additional 9 contributions. 10 Basically, Mr. President, the - 11 the opposition, or the city of New York has 12 issued a memorandum in opposition. One of their 13 main arguments appears to be that the 14 Legislature should not intrude in the collective 15 bargaining procedure. Every other union 16 similarly situated has this benefit. The - 17 their objection arises out of a contract with 18 the Correction Officers Benevolent Association 19 up until 1990. Since then, continuously, I am 20 advised that the correction officers have 21 attempted to negotiate -- to renegotiate this 22 aspect of the contract and the City, through 23 successive administrations, has refused to do 24 so. 25 It does seem -- it does seem fair 6398 1 to allow these correction officers who serve on 2 the front lines, so to speak, to have the same 3 benefits as every other union similarly 4 situated. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 6 President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: It 8 should be stated, Senator Leichter, before you 9 rise, before I acknowledge you, that there is a 10 home rule message at the desk on this particular 11 piece of legislation. 12 Senator Leichter. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 14 if Senator Maltese would yield for one or more 15 questions. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Senator Maltese, will you yield? He yields, 18 Senator. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 20 Maltese, isn't it true that at one time these 21 very correction officers entered into a contract 22 with the city of New York where they said rather 23 than having this benefit, we want you to give us 24 another benefit; isn't that true? 25 SENATOR MALTESE: That's 6399 1 basically true, Mr. President. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: And what 3 you're saying to us is that they would like to 4 renegotiate it now, and the City says, You made 5 an agreement with us. We offered you what every 6 other union had, but you said, No, we won't take 7 that, we want something else and the City said, 8 O.K., economically we'll give you that other 9 thing which is about equal to your giving up 10 this particular right, and I assume that's the 11 reason that the City won't renegotiate that; 12 isn't that -- isn't that true? 13 SENATOR MALTESE: Well, 14 basically, Mr. President, the enhanced half-pay 15 pension plan which was the agreed-upon price, if 16 you will, of agreeing to this, only inures to 17 the benefit of those who remain in the pension 18 plan 20 years or more, so we have a situation 19 where these members who are involved in a 20 participatory pension plan, a contributory plan, 21 are contributing their money plus interest and 22 are the only ones that have been denied this 23 benefit in collective bargaining with the city 24 of New York. 25 It does not seem to be fair to 6400 1 deny this, and it affects all correction 2 officers below the rank of captain, and 3 correction officers in the city of New York 4 basically they don't have the rank of sergeant, 5 captain is equivalent to sergeant, so you have 6 all line correction officers affected by this 7 failure of the City to agree to treat them 8 equitably. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you very 10 much, Senator Maltese. You know, on the bill. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Senator Leichter, on the bill. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: I like to be 14 as generous and maybe more generous than most 15 people. I'm called, you know, a big spender, 16 and I don't mind spending on certain social 17 matters and I also think we ought to pay our 18 municipal and public employees well. They 19 provide a real service, and correction officers, 20 God knows, it's a difficult job. I want to see 21 them well paid. 22 But I'm troubled, Senator 23 Maltese, when you come before us with a bill 24 where a particular provision that was bargained 25 for by these correction officers with the city 6401 1 of New York, where they said we'll take another 2 economic benefit and we will give up the right, 3 which other unions have, to have monies on our 4 pension system paid out to us with interest when 5 we leave that pension system. 6 Having made that deal, they now 7 run to the Legislature and they say change it 8 for us. Is that the role really that we want to 9 take onto ourselves. We're interfering in the 10 management of the city of New York. We're 11 sticking our nose into collective bargaining 12 negotiations, and we're allowing public 13 employees -- I don't say it critically of them, 14 because I have a very good relationship with 15 them, based on my respect for them, but I don't 16 think we ought to be in a situation where once 17 public employees make a deal they then want to 18 appear and have us do that deal or better that 19 deal for them or change the deal or undo the 20 deal that they voluntarily entered into, and 21 that's what you're doing here, Senator Maltese. 22 Much as I'd like to see us do - 23 be generous to all public employees, I think 24 that we've got a greater responsibility here and 25 that's to a proper process, to the City where 6402 1 you and I live, Senator Maltese, and really to 2 the basic fairness. It's just not fair for 3 these employees to make a deal and then run to 4 the Legislature and say, Now, give us something 5 better. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Read the last section, please. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Call the roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Announce the results. Count the negatives. 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays 16 one, Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 18 bill is passed. 19 Senator Tully, why do you rise? 20 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, 21 may I have unanimous consent to be recorded in 22 the negative on Calendar Number 280. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 24 record will reflect Senator Tully in the 25 negative on Calendar Number 280. 6403 1 SENATOR LACHMAN: Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Senator Lachman, why do you rise? 4 SENATOR LACHMAN: Mr. President, 5 I request unanimous consent of this body to also 6 be recorded in the negative on Calendar Item 7 280. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Senator Lachman will also be recorded in the 10 negative on Calendar Number 280. 11 Secretary will read. 12 Senator Larkin? 13 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 14 Can we now take up Calendar Number 371, by 15 Senator Goodman. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Secretary will read Calendar 371, by Senator 18 Goodman. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 371, substituted earlier today, by member of the 21 Assembly McLaughlin, Assembly Print 5036-B, an 22 act to amend the Transportation Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Read the last section. 25 An explanation has been asked 6404 1 for. Senator Goodman. 2 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President, 3 one day a couple of years ago a reporter came 4 into my office and said, "I just observed a 5 wheel rolling off a double decker bus." The 6 wheel apparently was not properly attached 7 with a lug nut in a fashion which is customary 8 to keep wheels attached to vehicles, which gave 9 rise within the alert Investigations Committee 10 of the state Senate, to a small investigation of 11 who inspects buses, and which gave further rise 12 to the indication that the authority to do so is 13 quite ambiguous. 14 This bill unambiguously charges 15 the Commissioner of the state Department of 16 Transportation with the responsibility to 17 inspect double decker sightseeing buses and also 18 makes it clear that the operator of such buses 19 shall bear the cost of such inspection. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Read the last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 23 act shall take effect immediately. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 25 Call the roll. 6405 1 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 4 bill is passed. 5 Senator Abate, why do you rise? 6 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, I ask for 7 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative 8 on Calendar Number 1135. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Senator Abate will be counted in the negative on 11 Calendar Number 1135. 12 Senator Leichter, why do you 13 rise? 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: I was just 15 stretching. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Senator Leichter will be recorded as 18 stretching. 19 Senator Montgomery, why do you 20 rise? 21 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Mr. 22 President, I would like unanimous consent to be 23 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 24 1135. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: I'm 6406 1 sorry. Say the number again, Senator. 2 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Number 3 1135. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Senator Montgomery will be recorded in the 6 negative on Calendar Number 1135. 7 Secretary will read. 8 Senator Larkin, what is your 9 pleasure? 10 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 11 can we go on the "A" calendar, 1429, by Senator 12 Spano. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Secretary will read. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 1429, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 2707-A, an 17 act to amend the Public Health Law. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Senator Spano, an explanation has been 21 requested. 22 SENATOR SPANO: Thank you, Mr. 23 President. 24 This bill clarifies the 25 provisions in the Public Health Law with regard 6407 1 to granting hospital privileges to -- to 2 podiatrists. The -- right now, the existing law 3 does in an appropriate way clarify the 4 making of an improper practice by a hospital to 5 refuse to grant an application of a -- to give 6 staff membership or hospital privileges to a 7 podiatrist. 8 This legislation clears up that 9 problem in the statute. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Senator Stachowski. 12 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 13 President, would Senator Spano yield to a couple 14 questions? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Senator, would you yield to a couple questions? 17 He yields, Senator. 18 SENATOR SPANO: Yes. 19 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Last year 20 HANYS, the Health Care Association, and the 21 Medical Society were opposed. All we have is 22 last year's and then they said they were still 23 opposed. Are you aware if these two groups are 24 still opposed, or do you have any kind of notice 25 of opposition because all we have is last 6408 1 year's? 2 SENATOR SPANO: The Medical 3 Society has memo'd against it; I believe HANYS 4 is also opposed to it, but I don't have a memo. 5 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Thank you, 6 Mr. President. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Senator Leichter, why do you rise? 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Would Senator 11 Spano yield, please. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Hold on one second. The stenographer holds - 14 can we have some order in the house, please. We 15 can't hear the debate, and that's important. 16 I'm sorry, Senator. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator Spano, 18 if a hospital takes presently the position 19 that it will not have any podiatrists whatsoever 20 who will have admitting privileges to that 21 hospital, does that -- does your bill now 22 prevent a hospital from making that sort of 23 decision? 24 SENATOR SPANO: What this bill 25 would basically just say is that the hospital 6409 1 could not make a decision based solely upon the 2 practitioner's category of licensure, so if a - 3 if a podiatrist is -- is providing services to a 4 -- to a patient, this patient should be - 5 should not be forced to change doctors or travel 6 long distance, so the answer to your question is 7 yes, it does require it. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you, 9 Senator Spano. On the bill. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Senator Leichter, on the bill. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: I just don't 13 know why we're telling hospitals that they've 14 got to have podiatrists who have admitting 15 privileges. I mean I think these are decisions 16 that hospitals ought to be able to make on their 17 own. If they decide that they don't want to 18 have a particular category of doctors, they 19 should be allowed to do it. I mean I'm always 20 somewhat amused in the course of a session, but 21 particularly at the end, you seem to get all of 22 the inconsistencies. 23 I mean I hear other people, 24 people on the other side of the aisle speaking 25 about government shouldn't interfere, let the 6410 1 market decide, let's get rid of government 2 regulation, and then on something of this sort, 3 well, hospitals certainly ought to be able to 4 govern themselves in this respect. We're 5 telling them, you can't exclude podiatrists. 6 I don't know what particular 7 social purpose is served by our doing that. I 8 don't know if there's knowledge in this chamber 9 as to how hospitals ought to be operated. Every 10 hospital in this state, to say that three must 11 have podiatrists on their staff. I just think 12 that's an improper interference on our part, in 13 the operation of hospitals. I don't believe we 14 should be doing this. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Senator Dollinger. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Sponsor yield 18 to a question, Mr. President? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Senator Spano, do you yield to Senator 21 Dollinger? 22 SENATOR SPANO: Yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Senator Dollinger, he yields. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, has 6411 1 this bill been amended since the bill we did 2 last year? I notice it's an "A" print, and if 3 so, what was the amendment? 4 SENATOR SPANO: Yes, it has. If 5 you remember, Senator, the Governor vetoed this 6 bill last year and because he felt that the bill 7 was possibly too broadly written, that it would 8 include more than podiatrists, so what we did 9 was added the word in the last line of the bill, 10 we added line 17 of the bill added the word 11 "podiatrist" instead of "practitioner" so that 12 we made it specifically clear about what 13 profession we were speaking about, so that we 14 could remove that objection of the Governor. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 16 you, Mr. President, if Senator Spano would 17 continue to yield to a question. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Senator, you continue to yield? 20 SENATOR SPANO: Yes. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 22 yields, Senator. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What types of 24 practice -- you remove the word "practitioner" 25 and substitute "podiatrist" but then you used 6412 1 the word "practitioner", you describe "practi 2 tioner" the last four words, "practitioner's 3 category of licensure." 4 What does that phrase mean? Are 5 there particular kinds of podiatrists that would 6 be involved in this? Are there other categories 7 of licensure? 8 SENATOR SPANO: No, there's no 9 other categories of licensure within -- I mean a 10 podiatrist is a podiatrist and the -- I felt, 11 frankly, that we did not need to -- to amend 12 this word, but the Governor felt otherwise, so 13 we -- so we added the word "podiatrist" in that 14 sentence just to -- just so that we can remove 15 any question on the part of the Governor's 16 counsel's staff. 17 Frankly, I don't think it makes 18 much of a difference. The -- it -- it, the fact 19 that "podiatrist" and "practitioner" are -- are 20 used interchangeably, I think, is a common 21 practice. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 23 you, Mr. President, just so I understand. 24 It says "privileges to 25 podiatrists", I understand that this would 6413 1 require hospitals -- prevent hospitals from 2 denying privileges solely because they're 3 podiatrists, but based solely on the 4 "practitioner's category of license". I just 5 don't understand the phrase "category of 6 licenses". Are there categories of licensures 7 for podiatrists? I mean are there like a Class A 8 podiatrist, a Class B podiatrist or, as you 9 know, Senator, we do create for physicians, for 10 M.D.s, we have limited licenses which allow them 11 to practice in underserved areas. 12 The reason why I'm asking is, I'm 13 trying to find out is there a similar category 14 for podiatrists and, if so, is this requiring 15 them to take people of all -- of the limited 16 licenses or full licenses? If you're a 17 podiatrist you get in no matter what, and that 18 addresses the point Senator Leichter made. 19 SENATOR SPANO: There is not - 20 there are no different categories within 21 podiatry. There is one -- one license. There 22 are no different categories within that 23 licensure, so it would be the fact that we're 24 including podiatrists is based solely upon a 25 particular practitioner's category of licensure, 6414 1 and the category of licensure would be the fact 2 that they are licensed as a podiatrist. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Just 4 through you, Mr. President, just on the bill. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Senator Dollinger, on the bill. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator 8 Spano, I don't understand your explanation. I'm 9 still not quite sure why that language is in 10 there, but I voted against your bill last year. 11 I'm going to vote against it again this year. I 12 agree with Senator Leichter, the scope of 13 services provided in the hospitals, we ought to 14 leave that up to the hospitals. 15 I've done a lot of work with 16 privileges. There are a lot of things about 17 2801 that I would change to prevent more 18 arbitrary removal of privileges by hospitals 19 but, frankly, adding podiatrists, while it may 20 make some sense, is something that's best left 21 to the judgment of the individual hospitals. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Any 23 other Senator? Read the last section. 24 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 25 act shall take effect on the 30th day. 6415 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Call the roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Record the negatives and announce the results. 6 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 7 the negative on Calendar Number 1429 are 8 Senators DeFrancisco, Dollinger and Leichter. 9 Ayes 55, nays 3. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 11 bill is passed. 12 Senator Larkin, what is your 13 pleasure? 14 SENATOR LARKIN: How about 15 Calendar Number 877, please. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Secretary will read Calendar Number - 18 SENATOR LARKIN: On the main 19 calendar. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: - 21 877. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 877, by Senator Lack, Senate Print Number 24 2699-B, an act to amend the Alcoholic Beverage 25 Control Law, in relation to interests. 6416 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Senator Lack. Can we lay that bill aside 3 temporarily? Oh, Senator Lack is here, I'm 4 sorry. 5 Senator Lack, an explanation of 6 your bill 877 has been requested. 7 SENATOR LACK: Thank you, Mr. 8 President. 9 Mr. President, this bill would 10 create an acceptance of the "tidehouse" law. 11 Let me explain briefly what a "tidehouse" law 12 was. It dates from English common law where 13 there was a requirement for a pub owner to serve 14 the beverages of only one manufacturer or 15 brewer. This common law enactment became 16 statute in New York in 19 -- in 1933, and it 17 prevents monopolies whereby a liquor or beer 18 manufacturer, distiller or brewer, could through 19 mortgaging or other types of financing control 20 the products that would be sold at retail and 21 prevent what we today call vertical integration 22 of a specific industry. 23 In the main the law has worked 24 very well because retail sellers of alcoholic 25 products are always much smaller than the 6417 1 manufacturers or brewers who manufac... who make 2 or distribute the products. This particular 3 exception is to recognize - 4 Will you excuse me, please? 5 Hello! Would you move over because I think 6 Senator Gold and I are engaging in something. 7 This particular exception is to 8 recognize what's happened in the '90s as there 9 has been a rapid expansion and change in the 10 manner by which large brewers, liquor 11 distilleers, et cetera, have engaged in the 12 business. 13 This particular one has to do 14 with Dream Works which is owned by Stephen 15 Spielberg and Universal Studios, and Sega Game 16 Works. Universal Studios is, by itself, a 17 subsidiary of MCA, which is a subsidiary of 18 Seagram's and Universal Studios, together with 19 Sega, Dream Works and Stephen Spielberg are 20 engaging in a joint venture to establish an 21 entertainment complex, entertainment complexes 22 for adult games throughout the United States 23 which will offer and sell liquor as part of the 24 Game Works. 25 Seagram's, which has a minor 6418 1 percentage through two other subsidiaries, and 2 Sega Game Works would be prevented under New 3 York's "tidehouse" laws from allowing Dream 4 Works to open up establishments in New York. 5 This exception would establish a footprint of 6 eight different requirements in order for such a 7 facility to operate legally in New York, 8 including the prohibition of any liquor 9 advertising, et cetera. It is merely a way to 10 accommodate and recognize the fact that we 11 should still have a "tidehouse" law but 12 understand that you can have a conglomerate 13 that's engaged in the liquor business that owns 14 a lot of other businesses as well. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Read the last section. 17 Senator Paterson, why do you 18 rise? 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Just one 20 moment, Mr. President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Senator Paterson. 23 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 25 Senator Paterson, are you ready? 6419 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 2 President. Senator Lack stated that there are 3 eight standards that are set forth in this 4 legislation that would, in a sense, provide the 5 threshold for what would establish an exception 6 to the "tidehouse" law, and as good as that may 7 be, I hope that eight is enough, because since 8 we have excepted in these types of cases before, 9 I would just like to say -- and then I'm going 10 to vote for the bill -- but I would just like to 11 say that perhaps what would be a better way to 12 do it because it's not protect -- the interests 13 that we're serving in this particular 14 legislation that I'm concerned about, it's just 15 that we maintain the integrity of why we have 16 the "tidehouse" law in the first place and I'm 17 just saying that perhaps what we need to do is 18 just codify what the threshold is and the 19 particular -- the particular issues that would 20 -- that are in this particular bill that 21 perhaps we make a law that would encompass them 22 and that would satisfy what the standard would 23 be, and then in the other areas that don't fall 24 within the ambit of the law, the "tidehouse" law 25 would still have its full effect. 6420 1 SENATOR GOLD: Last section. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Read the last section, please. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Call the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 11 bill is passed. 12 Secretary will read Calendar 13 Number 641? Senator Larkin, thank you. 14 Calendar Number 641. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 641, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 4194, an 17 act to amend the Racing, Pari-mutuel Wagering 18 and Breeding Law. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Senator Larkin, an explanation has been 22 requested. 23 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: For 25 those members who are wondering where we're 6421 1 going, we're on the main original calendar. 2 Senator Larkin. 3 SENATOR LARKIN: First of all, 4 this bill is based on an agreement between the 5 New York Breeders -- Horsemen's Association and 6 the New York Breeders Association and the Racing 7 Association as a whole and basically what this 8 bill does, it would amend the law to clarify 9 that owners' premiums shall not be considered as 10 purse money for thoroughbred racing in New York 11 State. 12 In essence, the bill would ensure 13 that New York bred horses will not have to amend 14 the races for which they are eligible to run 15 based on artificially inflated purse winnings 16 which instead reflect the amount of the premium 17 and the amount of the purse. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Read the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Call the roll. 24 (The Secretary called the roll.) 25 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 6422 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 2 bill is passed. 3 Can we read Calendar Number 343, 4 Senator Larkin. 5 The Secretary will read. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 343, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 3102-A, an 8 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to 9 the retention of group life insurance. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Senator Velella, an explanation has been 12 requested. 13 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, Mr. 14 President. 15 This bill gives employees or 16 members of covered -- who are covered under a 17 group life insurance policy the option to 18 continue their life -- to continue their term 19 life insurance coverage for one year after 20 leaving a group if such member was terminated 21 because such employee or member was permanently 22 or totally disabled. 23 After a period of one year, that 24 disabled person will have an option to convert 25 to either whole life or a term policy based on 6423 1 their age at the time that they want to convert 2 the policy. 3 I apologize for my voice. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Can 5 I again ask -- can I again ask for some silence 6 in the chamber. We cannot hear the members. 7 Will you take the conversations out of the room, 8 please. 9 Thank you. 10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Senator Gold. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. This is - 14 my comment is not necessarily on this bill but 15 as a member of the Rules Committee, I have the 16 advantage of seeing the calendars and asking 17 questions in the Committee, but there are many 18 members who don't have that advantage, and I 19 just wanted to suggest very, very respectfully 20 to the Majority, that if we stay on one 21 calendar, if that's what we're doing, great, but 22 stay on one calendar and go through it with some 23 predictability, I think that members may have 24 less suspicion as to what bills are and what 25 they're about. 6424 1 So I'm not -- I have no problem 2 with this, Senator Velella, but I would just 3 suggest that, Mr. President, if we could go 4 through one calendar orderly and then take the 5 next one, I think it just makes it easier for 6 the members instead of grabbing for papers and 7 that's why some of these explanations are being 8 asked for because people are afraid they're 9 going to miss something in the transition. So 10 that's just a very respectful suggestion. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: On 12 the basis of that, the bills that we will be 13 picking up after this one is passed are Senate 14 -- Calendar Number 467 and 1098, so that 15 members can read ahead. 16 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, you 17 are a wise man, and I appreciate that. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Thank you, Senator. I'll use that in my 20 endorsement piece. 21 Senator Lack. 22 SENATOR GOLD: I wish you 23 wouldn't. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 25 Call the roll -- read the last section. I'm 6425 1 sorry. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect on the 180th day. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Call the roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 9 bill is passed. 10 Senator Lachman, why are you 11 rising? 12 SENATOR LACHMAN: Mr. President, 13 I would like to have unanimous consent to be 14 recorded in the negative on item 1135. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 16 record will show reflect -- will so reflect. 17 The Secretary will read Calendar 18 Number 467. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 467, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 3204-A, an 21 act to amend the Insurance Law and the Vehicle 22 and Traffic Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Read the last section. 25 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 6426 1 act shall take effect in 90 days. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Call the roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll.) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 7 bill is passed. 8 The Secretary will read 1098. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 1098, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 11 4799, an act to amend Chapter 272 of the Laws of 12 1991. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Call the roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll.) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 22 bill is passed. 23 Senator Paterson. 24 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 25 President. 6427 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Thank you, Senator. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Can we have an 4 explanation. 5 SENATOR LARKIN: Would you please 6 call Senator Spano's - 7 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation, Mr. 8 President. 9 SENATOR LARKIN: Announce the 10 results. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: We 12 did that already. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Last section. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: We 15 read the last section on 1098. The bill has 16 already been passed. 17 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 18 can we now return to motions and resolutions. I 19 believe you have a couple of privileged 20 resolutions at the desk. Just please read the 21 title only. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 23 Secretary will read. 24 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 25 Leibell, Legislative Resolution congratulating 6428 1 Sol and Ruth Kroll upon the occasion of their 2 50th wedding anniversary, July 3rd, 1997. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: On 4 the resolution, all in favor signify by saying 5 aye. 6 (Response of "Aye".) 7 Opposed, nay. 8 (There was no response.) 9 The resolution is passed 10 unanimously. 11 The Secretary will read. 12 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 13 Saland, Legislative Resolution commending 14 Dolores Alexander for her distinguished service 15 as a board trustee for the Wappingers Central 16 School District. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 18 motion is on the resolution. All in favor 19 signify by saying aye. 20 (Response of "Aye".) 21 Opposed, nay. 22 (There was no response.) 23 The resolution is passed. 24 Senator Larkin, can we take up 25 the report of the Rules Committee. 6429 1 SENATOR LARKIN: Can we now 2 return to reports of standing committees, the 3 Rules report. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Thank you, Senator. 6 The Secretary will read the 7 report of the Rules Committee. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno, 9 from the Committee on Rules, offers up the 10 following bills: 11 1401-A, by Senator LaValle, an 12 act to amend the Tax Law; 13 2092, by Senator Volker, an act 14 to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules; 15 2576, by Senator Montgomery, an 16 act authorizing the city of New York; 17 3438-B, by Senator Alesi, an act 18 to amend the Insurance Law; 19 3520-A, by Senator Velella, an 20 act to amend the Insurance Law; 21 3526-A, by Senator Alesi, an act 22 requiring further consumer protections; 23 4242, by Senator Trunzo, an act 24 to permit members of the retirement system; 25 4299-A, by Senator Alesi, an act 6430 1 to amend the General Business Law; 2 4439, by Senator Skelos, an act 3 to amend the Retirement and Social Security Law; 4 4662-A, by Senator Trunzo, an act 5 to amend the Retirement and Social Security Law; 6 4706, by Senator Velella, an act 7 to amend the Insurance Law; 8 4733-B, by Senator Farley, an act 9 to amend the Banking Law; 10 4821, by Senator Skelos, an act 11 to amend the Civil Service Law; 12 4968-A, by Senator Hannon, an act 13 to amend the Public Health Law; 14 5371-A, by Senator Goodman, an 15 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law; 16 5395-A, by Senator Bruno, an act 17 to amend the Navigation Law; 18 5413, by Senator Cook, an act to 19 amend the Public Health Law; 20 5439, by Senator Markowitz, an 21 act authorizing the city of New York; 22 5483, by Senator Seward, an act 23 to amend the Public Service Law; 24 5504, by Senator Cook, an act to 25 authorize payment; 6431 1 5509, by Senator Spano, an act to 2 amend Chapter 824 of the Laws of 1987; and 3 5524, by Senator Kuhl, an act to 4 amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law. 5 All bills directly for third 6 reading. 7 SENATOR LARKIN: Move we accept 8 the report, Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Thank you, Senator Larkin. 11 The motion is to accept the 12 report of the Rules Committee. All in favor 13 signify by saying aye. 14 (Response of "Aye".) 15 Opposed, nay. 16 (There was no response.) 17 The report is accepted. 18 Senator, can we return to the 19 order of motions and resolutions. We have a 20 motion. 21 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes. Recognize 22 Senator Rath, please. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Senator Rath. 25 SENATOR RATH: Mr. President, I 6432 1 move that the following bills be discharged from 2 their respective committees and be recommended 3 with instructions to strike the enacting 4 clause: Senate 1504, on behalf of Senator 5 Abate. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 7 bill is recommitted and the enacting clause is 8 stricken. Thank you, Senator Rath. 9 Ladies and gentlemen, we are now 10 looking at the non-controversial reading of 11 Senate Supplemental Calendar Number 59-B which 12 was placed on your desks earlier. So if you 13 have a problem, look at 59-B. 14 The Secretary will read. 15 SENATOR LARKIN: The 16 non-controversial calendar, Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Thank you, Senator. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 1440, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 1401-A, 21 an act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 22 providing exemption. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Read the last section. 25 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 6433 1 act shall take effect in 180 days. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Call the roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll.) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 7 bill is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 1441, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 2092, an 10 act to amend - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Lay 12 the bill aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: -- the Civil 14 Practice Law and Rules. 15 Calendar Number 1442, by Senator 16 Montgomery, Senate Print 2576, an act 17 authorizing the city of New York. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Ladies and gentlemen, there's no home rule 20 message for this bill, so we'll lay it aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 1443, by Senator Alesi, Senate Print 3438-B, an 23 act to amend the Insurance Law. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 25 Secretary will read the last section. 6434 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Call the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 8 bill is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 1444, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 3520-A, 11 an act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation 12 to including. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect in 120 days. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Call the roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll.) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 22 bill is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 1445, by Senator Alesi, Senate Print 3526-A, an 25 act to amend the General Business Law, in 6435 1 relation to providing. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Call the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll.) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 11 bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 1447, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 4242, an 14 act to permit members of the retirement system. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Call the roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll.) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 24 bill is passed. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6436 1 1448, by Senator Alesi, Senate Print 4299-A, an 2 act to amend the General Business Law. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Call the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 12 bill is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 1449, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 4439, an 15 act to amend the Retirement and Social Security 16 Law. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Lay 19 the bill aside. 20 THE SECRETARY: In relation to 21 Calendar Number 1450, Senator Trunzo moves to 22 discharge from the Committee on Rules Assembly 23 Print 7894-A and substitute it for the identical 24 Senate bill, Third Reading 1450. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6437 1 Read the last section -- the substitution is 2 ordered and lay the bill aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: 1451, by Senator 4 Velella, Senate Print 4706, an act to amend the 5 Insurance Law, in relation to automobile 6 insurance rates. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 10 act shall take effect on the 180th day. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Call the roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 16 bill is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 1452, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 4733-B, an 19 act to amend the Banking Law, in relation to 20 creating certain exemptions. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Lay 23 the bill aside, please. 24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 25 1453, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 4821, an 6438 1 act to amend the Civil Service Law, in relation 2 to reimbursement. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Call the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 12 bill is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 1454, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 4968-A, an 15 act to amend the Public Health Law. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Call the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 25 bill is passed. 6439 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1455, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5371-A, 3 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in 4 relation to tax exemption. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Lay 11 Senator Goodman's bill aside, please. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 1456, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 5395, an 14 act to amend the Navigation Law, in relation to 15 regulating the speed of vessels on Saratoga 16 Lake. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Read the -- call the roll -- there is a home 19 rule message at the desk. Read the last 20 section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Call the roll. 25 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6440 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 3 bill is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1457, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 5413, an act 6 to amend the Public Health Law, in relation to 7 funding. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect on the same date as a 12 chapter of the Laws of 1997. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Lay 15 this bill aside. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1458, by Senator Markowitz - 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Lay 19 this bill aside. There is no home rule message 20 at the desk. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 1459, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 5483, an 23 act to amend the Public Service Law. 24 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Lay 6441 1 the bill aside. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 1460, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 5504, an act 4 to authorize payment of transportation aid. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Read the last section and there is a local 7 fiscal impact message at the desk. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Call the roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll.) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 15 bill is passed. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1461, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 5509, an 18 act to amend Chapter 824 of the Laws of 1987. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Read the last section, please. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Call the roll. 25 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6442 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 3 bill is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1462, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 5524, an act 6 to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law, in 7 relation to wineries and farm wineries. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 11 act shall take effect on the 30th day. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Call the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside, 16 please. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Can 18 we lay this bill aside, please. Thank you. 19 That completes the reading of the 20 non-controversial calendar, Senator. Shall we 21 go ahead with the controversial reading? 22 SENATOR LARKIN: Is there any 23 housekeeping at the desk? 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 25 Yes, we do, Senator. We have some. 6443 1 SENATOR LARKIN: Okay. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Senator Maziarz, my co-president of our 4 graduating class. 5 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. 7 On page number 43, I offer the 8 following amendments to Calendar Number 495, 9 Senate Print Number 300-B, and ask that said 10 bill retain its place on the Third Reading 11 Calendar. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 13 amendments are received and accepted. The bill 14 will retain its place on the Third Reading 15 Calendar. 16 Senator, may we continue with the 17 reading of the controversial calendar. 18 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 20 Secretary will read the controversial calendar 21 of 59-B. The calendar is -- I'm sorry. 22 SENATOR LARKIN: Would you please 23 call up Calendar 449 by Senator Skelos, please. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Can 25 we call up -- yes, we can, Senator. Calendar 6444 1 Number 449, Supplemental 59-B. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 449, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 4439, an 4 act to amend the Retirement and Social Security 5 Law, in relation to State Police disability 6 retirement allowance. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Read the last section. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Senator Leichter. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah. Senator 13 Skelos, if you would be good enough to yield. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator Skelos, do you yield to Senator 16 Leichter? He yields, Senator. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yesterday we 18 had a bill by Senator Meier where we allowed a 19 transfer to the State Police system which cost 20 180,000 for one individual. The fiscal note, I 21 see that it -- your bill would apply to six 22 retired members and at a total cost of $1.1 23 million. In addition, there may be additional 24 costs for members and retirees who we have not 25 identified. Can you tell us - 6445 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Let me explain 2 this bill to you. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: When the Parkway 5 Police on Long Island were merged into the State 6 Police, the people that were brought over to the 7 State Police were Tier I employees. They were 8 brought over as Tier I employees for everything 9 but disability benefits where they are Tier II 10 employees. The money over the years was paid 11 into the system. In fact, the Comptroller has 12 no objection to what we're trying to do, and the 13 State Police are supportive of this since the 14 money has already been paid into the retirement 15 system, for these people now to get the same 16 percentage of disability, which I believe is 75 17 percent as against 55 percent if they were 18 treated as the Tier I employee. 19 So this is not a hit on the 20 treasury or anything. It's money that's been 21 paid in in the past. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Let me just 23 see if I fully understand it, if you'll yield to 24 one more question. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6446 1 Senator, do you yield? He yields. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: In other 3 words, there's been a transfer of whatever 4 credits these employees have. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: I believe it 6 happened in 1980 -- in 1980. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. Thank 8 you. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Senator Gold. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. I just have 13 one short question for Senator Skelos. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator Skelos, do you yield? He yields, 16 Senator Gold. 17 SENATOR GOLD: I just want to 18 clarify, Senator, something that maybe some 19 other people are interested in also. This bill, 20 if it costs any amount of money -- I thought we 21 were not permitted to pass legislation that, 22 quotes, makes appropriations or it does 23 expenditures until we pass the budget, and I 24 know that's a very technical area because 25 somehow some bills get out and somehow some 6447 1 bills don't. 2 I know there's no prohibition 3 against bringing out a bill to the floor. I 4 know there's no prohibition against passing a 5 bill which sets up a program subject to an 6 appropriation, but it seems to me if this has a 7 fiscal note and it's spending money, I don't 8 know how we do it before the budget. 9 SENATOR SKELOS: This money has 10 already been paid into the retirement system. 11 It's not new money that has to be paid because 12 when they were making the - 13 SENATOR GOLD: But it's an - 14 it's an authorization for payment. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: From the 16 retirement system, disability benefits. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, I'm 18 certainly not opposed to the bill. It's just a 19 question of timing, and I think that we -- I'm 20 just not sure it's a timely bill. It doesn't 21 mean that we wouldn't support it at any other 22 time, and I'm not going to oppose it at this 23 point, but I really do question whether we 24 should be spending any monies before budget. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6448 1 Read the last section, please. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Call the roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 9 bill is passed. 10 Senator Larkin, return to regular 11 order? 12 SENATOR LARKIN: Let's go back to 13 Calendar 1450, by Senator Trunzo. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 15 Secretary will read Calendar Number 1450, page 16 2, if anybody's looking, on the supplemental 17 calendar. Read the last - 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1450, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly 20 Committee on Rules, Assembly Print 7894-A, an 21 act to amend the Retirement and Social Security 22 Law. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Did 25 I hear an explanation asked for? Explanation, 6449 1 Senator Trunzo, has been requested. 2 SENATOR TRUNZO: Mr. President, 3 what this bill does is, this would create the 4 same disability program for EnCon police and the 5 Park Police as the New York State Police have. 6 These police officers are state 7 policemen and, therefore, they have statewide 8 jurisdiction in specific areas of law 9 enforcement. So what we're doing is putting the 10 Park Police and the EnCon police with the same 11 disability effects that the State Police have 12 because they are state policemen. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 14 just - 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Senator Trunzo, will you yield to Senator 17 Leichter? 18 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yeah. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: I 20 believe he yields, Senator. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 22 assume presently, as employees of the Department 23 of Environmental Conservation, they're entitled 24 to whatever disability benefits the employees of 25 the Department are entitled to; is that right? 6450 1 (Senator Trunzo nods head.) 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: And I assume 3 this bill will give them greater disability 4 benefits. 5 SENATOR TRUNZO: Greater, and the 6 equity with the other state police. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: And is that 8 based on the fact that the functions that they 9 perform as peace officers or police officers 10 present certain risks, and so on? 11 SENATOR TRUNZO: That's right. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: And is the 13 nature of their functions such that they're 14 likely to incur the same sort of disabilities as 15 members of the State Police? 16 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: In what 18 respect is that? 19 SENATOR TRUNZO: They have the 20 same jurisdictional work as policeman do, the 21 State Police. They patrol the parks and, you 22 know, those areas and as a result they encounter 23 the same type of problems that any police 24 officer would encounter. They're in uniform. 25 They are cops and the different agency other 6451 1 than the state troopers but -- so they have the 2 same jurisdictions and the same - 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: If you would 4 yield just to one more question. I understand 5 the matter of jurisdiction, but I think what we 6 need to look at is the risks that they face. 7 SENATOR TRUNZO: Well, they face 8 the same safety factors as anyone else, any 9 other policemen. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: They're not on 11 the highway - 12 SENATOR TRUNZO: No. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- and cars 14 going 80, 90 miles an hour, which I assume is a 15 particular risk to the State Police. I just 16 want to make sure, Senator, that you've looked 17 at this carefully and that these people are 18 really entitled to the more generous disability 19 benefits that they're now going to be entitled 20 to get. 21 SENATOR TRUNZO: Well, I honestly 22 believe that very strongly because even in their 23 patrolling of the state parks, they can 24 encounter the various problems and things that 25 happen at picnics and other things that may go 6452 1 on in the state parks. 2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Run into a 3 bear. 4 SENATOR TRUNZO: And EnCon. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Read the last section, please. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect on the 60th day. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Call the roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 14 bill is passed. 15 Senator Larkin, what's your 16 pleasure? 17 SENATOR LARKIN: Regular order. 18 Senator Farley. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: May 20 we return to -- Senator, that's not the regular 21 order. Senator Farley's bill. Farley's bill, 22 1452. 23 The Secretary will please read 24 Senator Farley's bill, 1452. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6453 1 1452, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 4733-B, an 2 act to amend the Banking Law. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Senator, an explanation has been requested. 6 SENATOR FARLEY: Is that my 7 colleague and friend, Senator Leichter, that 8 would like this? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Who 10 else? 11 SENATOR FARLEY: The friend of 12 the American banker. Actually, this is not a 13 banking situation, but it would authorize the 14 Superintendent of Banks to increase the maximum 15 percentage that a limited trust company may 16 invest in the obligations of a foreign nation. 17 This bill is important to New 18 York companies to compete in the global custody 19 business. Franz, this is not a special interest 20 bill. There's 38 of these, not four or five or 21 whatever it might be, 38 of these companies and 22 the global custody business often involves 23 short-term investment of foreign currencies. 24 The main options are to deposit 25 such assets in a foreign bank or to invest such 6454 1 assets in foreign government securities or 2 obligations. Both these options are subject to 3 the statutory limits based on the institution's 4 capital stock. 5 However, the Superintendent of 6 Banks, may, on a case-by-case basis, establish 7 higher limits for deposits in banks and has done 8 so on numerous occasions. In other words, they 9 can go into banks. The Superintendent, in my 10 judgment, in this bill's judgment, and the 11 Banking Department's judgment, should have 12 similar flexibility to establish higher limits 13 for investments in foreign government 14 obligations and repurchase agreements. That's 15 the essence of it. 16 These investments often have 17 advantages over deposits in foreign banks 18 because there's more security, there's less 19 credit exposures. The yields are generally 20 better and repurchase agreements, in particular, 21 are generally more liquid and also, as an aside, 22 there's no limits at all on investments in the 23 United States and New York State obligations and 24 since trust companies are increasingly managing 25 foreign currencies, it is appropriate that the 6455 1 law regarding investments in foreign government 2 obligations be revisited and to provide some 3 increased flexibility subject to discretion of 4 the Superintendent. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 6 if Senator Farley will yield for one or two - 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Senator Farley -- excuse me one second. 9 Ladies and gentlemen, once again, 10 please. Thank you. 11 Senator, he yields for a 12 question. 13 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr. 14 President. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 16 appreciate that these are trust companies that 17 don't take deposits from the public so we're not 18 placing that money at risk but, nevertheless, 19 they could be sister companies of companies that 20 do take monies from the public and certainly if 21 any of these 38 trust companies were to get into 22 a financial difficulty, you would have a great 23 impact on the people of the state of New York. 24 I just have one question to you, 25 Senator, and I don't mind giving them certain 6456 1 added authority to invest in foreign securities, 2 but is there going to be a periodic check by the 3 Superintendent? Are there going to be 4 examinations so that we don't find ourselves in 5 a situation where one of these bank companies 6 gets too heavily involved in the obligations of 7 a foreign country? 8 SENATOR FARLEY: Good question. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you. 10 SENATOR FARLEY: The Department 11 -- the Banking Department examines these 12 people, reviews these decisions and 13 incidentally, we're talking about government 14 securities which are, generally speaking, more 15 secure and are safer than some of the bank 16 deposits. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you very 18 much, Senator Farley, and when we see that 19 Farley-Leichter bill - 20 SENATOR FARLEY: I'm ready. I'm 21 working on it. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator Gold, why do you rise? 24 SENATOR GOLD: If I see a 25 Farley-Leichter bill, I'm going to debate it. 6457 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Read the last section, please. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Call the roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll.) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 10 bill is passed. 11 Senator Larkin. 12 SENATOR LARKIN: Senator Seward 13 has a Conference Committee, so we'll take his 14 bill now, 1459, so he can finish it. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Yes. Will the Secretary please read Calendar 17 Number 1459. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1459, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 5483, an 20 act to amend the Public Service Law, in relation 21 to cellular telephone services. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Read the last section. 24 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, Mr. 25 President. 6458 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: I'm 2 sorry. 3 SENATOR STAVISKY: Explanation, 4 please. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Senator Seward, an explanation has been 7 requested. 8 SENATOR SEWARD: Certainly, Mr. 9 President. 10 This is a bill which passed 11 unanimously last year. We're presenting it 12 again this year because unlike last year we do 13 have an Assembly sponsor, Assemblyman Vann in 14 the other house, who is intending to pass it 15 over there. 16 Basically this bill would suspend 17 the regulation by the Public Service Commission 18 of cellular telephone services. However, we 19 make it very clear in the legislation that, in 20 the event the PSC finds that because of customer 21 complaints and other factors that they, after 22 one year -- after the effective date of the 23 legislation, they could reimpose regulations 24 should they determine that that is necessary. 25 So we do make that provision and the other part 6459 1 of the legislation is that -- that it states 2 very clearly that the tax status of the cellular 3 telephone corporations remains the same. 4 There's no change in that, but basically the 5 reason for the bill is in the cellular business, 6 in terms of telephones, there's so much 7 competition today. It's growing all the time 8 and it seems that if one customer is having a 9 problem, there are plenty of other cellular 10 providers available to take their business. So 11 competition is very evident there and it is 12 taking away really the need for regulation. 13 Also, the FCC at the federal 14 level, the Federal Communications Commission, 15 has determined that the states have very, very 16 limited authority to exercise regulation. In 17 fact, they've taken away the Commission's right 18 to exercise entry and rate jurisdiction. So 19 there's very -- basically there's very little 20 left that we would regulate anyway. 21 So for those reasons, I'm 22 presenting the bill, and I'm calling for its 23 passage. 24 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6460 1 Senator Gold. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Would the 3 distinguished gentleman from Central New York 4 yield to a question? 5 SENATOR SEWARD: Certainly. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Senator Seward, do you yield? He yields. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, are there 9 more cellular companies doing business in New 10 York than there are banks doing business in New 11 York? 12 SENATOR SEWARD: Banks, did you 13 say? 14 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, banks. 15 SENATOR SEWARD: I've never -- to 16 be honest with you, Senator, I've never 17 compared. 18 SENATOR GOLD: You never cared? 19 SENATOR SEWARD: I've never 20 compared. I've never taken a count. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, if you'll 22 yield to question. Are there more cellular 23 phone companies doing business in New York than 24 there are insurance companies? 25 SENATOR SEWARD: I have never 6461 1 compared the numbers. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, if you'll 3 yield to one more question. 4 SENATOR SEWARD: Certainly. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I really 6 don't understand the bill at all because to say 7 there's competition and, therefore, we don't 8 have to regulate -- I thought we had competition 9 in the banking field and I don't see Senator 10 Farley -- Professor Farley telling us we 11 shouldn't regulate the banks. I mean, there's 12 all these insurance companies out there 13 competing, the mail that comes in, the phone 14 calls that come in, and I don't hear us being 15 told we shouldn't regulate the insurance 16 industry. It's just a situation where there's a 17 big gap in logic that I see here. 18 I understand the federal 19 government has certain controls and that that's 20 fine, but from the point of view of protecting 21 consumers, to say that consumers are protected 22 because they can change service, I can make that 23 same argument about a bank, an insurance company 24 or any other industry that we regulate. So I 25 don't see the logic. 6462 1 It just seems incredible that we 2 would take cellular phones and determine that 3 for some reason we exempt them from these laws. 4 What is the real reason here? 5 SENATOR SEWARD: I've stated very 6 clearly, Mr. President, the - 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: I 8 understood it. 9 SENATOR SEWARD: Thank you. No, 10 seriously, the fact is that, as I said, the FCC 11 has taken away the state's authority to regulate 12 in some very key areas, such as the entry and 13 the rates, and I see some difference in terms of 14 the examples you've mentioned. 15 The cellular service is 16 predominantly a non-essential -- it's a 17 discretionary service that's being provided by a 18 very dynamic and rapidly changing market 19 structure. I see that as a difference when 20 compared to some of the other examples that you 21 outlined. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Senator Gold. 25 SENATOR GOLD: I don't -- I don't 6463 1 have to ask the Senator any more questions. 2 I'll just make my comments. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Senator Gold, on the bill. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Seward, I 6 respect you but this bill, I'm missing 7 something. It doesn't make any sense to me. 8 For example, we say that the FCC 9 is now regulating some areas. Well, that's an 10 honest man talking, Senator Seward. It doesn't 11 regulate all the areas. So if we drop our 12 regulation, it seems to me there are going to be 13 areas that are unregulated. 14 Secondly, you say that it is a 15 non-essential service and, Senator, to me, 16 what's an essential service? If you want to say 17 you need a doctor, you need a hospital, that's 18 essential. You have to eat. That's essential. 19 Well, Senator, in the real word today, cellular 20 phones is essential. There are people who 21 believe that. 22 Now, if you're saying to me every 23 human being in the world doesn't have a cellular 24 phone, you're right, but businesses use them 25 regularly, people not in business use them and 6464 1 they have dropped in their cost to some extent 2 and to say they're non-essential, I don't think 3 is really an accurate picture unless you want to 4 just determine that the word "essential" means 5 health services and food and things like that, 6 and housing. 7 I am prepared to support a bill 8 that makes sense if it makes sense but, in all 9 fairness and with no disrespect meant to you, I 10 haven't heard one logical reason why these 11 people should be treated differently from other 12 telephone companies or from banks or from 13 insurance companies or other kinds of businesses 14 like that. The state is now there. They are - 15 they are subject to our laws for the protection 16 of consumers, and I just don't understand based 17 upon what I've heard so far, why we would 18 justify taking them out of the protections of 19 the law. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Senator Stavisky. 22 SENATOR STAVISKY: Will the 23 sponsor yield to a couple of questions? 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 25 Senator Seward, do you yield? 6465 1 SENATOR SEWARD: Certainly. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 3 yields. 4 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator 5 Seward, are you familiar with a study that was 6 undertaken by Canadian scientists at the 7 University of Toronto and republished widely 8 here in the United States on the relationship 9 between the use of cellular phones and driving? 10 Are you familiar with that study? 11 SENATOR SEWARD: Senator, I've 12 seen some publicity regarding the issue. I'm 13 not intimately familiar with the study. 14 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator 15 Seward, the study found that the use of a 16 cellular phone while driving dramatically 17 increased the danger -- the danger to the 18 driver, passengers in the car and other drivers 19 and pedestrians to the extent that it was 20 comparable to the increase in hazards caused by 21 alcohol consumption. That was the study. 22 There was a second study at the 23 Rochester Institute of Technology here in New 24 York State which came out with the very same 25 conclusion and, if you have not become familiar 6466 1 with this issue, I would suggest that you do so 2 before sponsoring this legislation. The 3 research is very recent. It came out in the 4 past year and, if there is a relationship 5 between hazards to other drivers, pedestrians 6 and the use of a cellular phone while driving, I 7 think that you should think of the other aspect 8 of the regulation or non-regulation of this 9 industry. 10 I know the cellular phone 11 industry is good for the economy. I know that 12 it creates business and job opportunities and 13 I'm not challenging that issue, but it seems to 14 me that if the use of a cellular phone by a 15 person driving a motor vehicle creates a hazard 16 comparable to driving with a .10 alcohol level 17 in the blood, then that should be an important 18 part of any attempt to deal with this industry, 19 and I would urge you to hold this bill until you 20 can become familiar with that aspect of the 21 issue so that you will have before you not only 22 the desire to suspend the regulations but 23 perhaps the desire to put some other teeth into 24 a warning. "Do not drive while operating a 25 cellular phone" and that should be included in a 6467 1 piece of legislation rather than this attitude 2 we don't have to do anything about it. 3 Would you be willing to consider 4 holding this bill until the research -- which, 5 by the way, has come out since the 1996 piece of 6 legislation. 7 SENATOR SEWARD: Well, Mr. 8 President, I understand what Senator Stavisky is 9 saying. However, it does not have a 10 relationship to this particular piece of 11 legislation. Whether or not people use a 12 cellular phone while driving or what the risks 13 are, and so on, that's not a matter that would 14 be addressed by the Public Service Commission. 15 That's a -- would be another -- if this 16 Legislature -- it would require this Legislature 17 to do so -- wish to get involved in that type of 18 regulation, that would require additional 19 statutes, amending other sections of the law. 20 It's not a Public Service Commission issue in 21 terms of whether or not the cellular telephone 22 companies have to file papers at the commission 23 regarding their rates and if they want to 24 provide new services they've got to file that 25 information with the commission. That's what 6468 1 we're talking about here in terms of 2 regulation. Nothing to do with those -- what I 3 would consider to be health and safety issues 4 which you're outlining. 5 I would like to proceed with this 6 legislation. I know there's legislation that 7 others have introduced dealing with the issues 8 that you are outlining and - 9 SENATOR STAVISKY: Chairman Levy 10 has introduced a bill. I have introduced a bill 11 on this subject. I would encourage you - 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Excuse me, gentlemen. 14 SENATOR STAVISKY: Forgive me for 15 interjecting. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Back and forth, the questions directed through 18 the Chair, please. 19 Senator Stavisky, you have 20 further questions? 21 SENATOR STAVISKY: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator Seward, do you yield? He yields. 24 SENATOR STAVISKY: Norman Levy 25 has introduced a bill to begin collecting this 6469 1 data, and I have introduced legislation to 2 research and also get answers to the question of 3 the relationship between the use of a cellular 4 phone by a driver. I'm not saying that we 5 should stop the use of cellular phones. I'm 6 simply saying that there should be some 7 regulation that would address the issue of 8 safety. A person on a cellular phone cannot - 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Excuse me. Senator Stavisky, are you speaking 11 on the bill? 12 SENATOR STAVISKY: I'm speaking 13 on the bill. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator Stavisky, on the bill. 16 SENATOR STAVISKY: A person on a 17 cellular phone cannot -- cannot be aware of what 18 the impact will be on the driver's safety 19 record. As a matter of fact, talking to someone 20 at the other end of a cellular phone poses a 21 greater risk than any other distraction in the 22 car. If there, for example, is a situation 23 where passengers are distracting in the car or 24 where the driver is listening to a radio, there 25 is still not the danger that a cellular phone 6470 1 use while driving poses because you become so 2 engrossed in the conversation that it becomes a 3 distraction. 4 I think that we will be sending 5 the wrong message if we are to pass this 6 legislation in the wake of the recent research 7 and the findings that have been widely reported 8 since the last vote on this, and I would hope 9 that the members would be mindful of what I'm 10 suggesting, that there has got to be a 11 willingness to address the safety issue because 12 the mere fact that you're using a cellular 13 phone, whether it's hand held or, in fact, 14 installed in the vehicle itself and is not hand 15 held, poses a problem for other drivers, the 16 passengers and pedestrians alike and if we are 17 discontinuing all regulations as this bill 18 proposes, then we will never address the issue 19 of the safety of the use of a cellular phone. 20 I'm not suggesting that cellular 21 phone not be used. It could still be used for a 22 limited period of time, a window of opportunity 23 to make a call, to report an emergency, to do 24 any of the things that are necessary in the use 25 of a cellular phone, and I think it would be 6471 1 untoward to pass such legislation in the wake of 2 the findings. 3 I would hope that the sponsor 4 would not proceed with this while there are 5 safety features that deserve to be considered 6 and I would hope that the sponsor would be 7 willing. Hold your horses. Don't have a 8 vehicle hurtling forward while a driver is 9 distracted and, if the driver is distracted for 10 whatever reason, calling the boss, calling a 11 girlfriend, speaking on a -- on a phone call 12 aimed at changing the -- changing the 13 arrangements for a meeting later in the day, 14 whatever the reason is, the person at the other 15 end of the phone has no knowledge of what's 16 going on with the traffic conditions and that, I 17 think, should take equal precedent in this 18 legislation as well as the desire to discontinue 19 unnecessary reporting. 20 I would hope that the sponsor - 21 I would hope that the sponsor would reconsider 22 his position. If he's not able to reconsider 23 his position, I would hope that the members of 24 this body would be willing to vote no in order 25 to give us sufficient time to examine the 6472 1 ramifications of this legislation and the 2 ramifications of the use of cellular phones by 3 drivers, no one else. A passenger in the 4 vehicle could still make the call. Anyone not 5 driving could still make the call, but I'm 6 saying that the driver should not be able to 7 make the call with an impunity and allow this to 8 be a hazard. 9 The findings of the study I'm 10 citing indicated that the risk of accident and 11 injury and even death was increased four-fold, 12 400 percent increased by the use of a cellular 13 phone by the driver and this bill does not 14 address that issue and it moves us in the 15 opposite direction. 16 I would hope that the sponsor 17 would reconsider his position on this. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Senator Abate. 20 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. Would 21 Senator Seward yield to a question. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator, do you yield to Senator Abate? 24 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes, I do. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 6473 1 yields, Senator. 2 SENATOR ABATE: It's my 3 understanding that the Public Service Commission 4 has the power to currently regulate customer 5 billing information and practices, billing 6 disputes, customer protection matters such as 7 privacy, false advertising and service quality. 8 Do you agree, Senator, that 9 consumers still have problems in these areas 10 vis-a-vis cellular phone service? 11 SENATOR SEWARD: Senator, I have 12 reached out to the Public Service Commission - 13 in fact, this is a -- one of their program 14 bills, and I have been told by the Commission 15 that the complaints in these areas over the last 16 ten years are practically nil and so that is the 17 reason that it is believed that we can move 18 forward to lift the regulation from the cellular 19 telephone companies with the understanding, 20 though, that regulations in the areas that 21 you've outlined could be reinstated if the 22 complaints increase. 23 SENATOR ABATE: But if, as you 24 say -- and I have not checked that. I certainly 25 trust you, if you reached out to the PSC and 6474 1 they say it's no longer a problem. If it's no 2 longer a problem and these regulations are not 3 burdensome -- because many complaints are not 4 filed with PSC -- why do we need to deregulate 5 the cellular phone industry if it's not a 6 burden? 7 SENATOR SEWARD: Well, Senator, I 8 -- through you, Mr. President -- I didn't say 9 that it wasn't a burden for the companies. I'm 10 suggesting that in terms of the complaints 11 coming in to the PSC have been very, very few 12 over the last ten years but still the companies 13 need to -- when they change a procedure, they 14 have to file papers and it seems to be 15 unnecessary paperwork and expense to the 16 company, particularly when we have -- and I 17 think this is the reason why there are so few 18 complaints, because of the fact that we have a 19 variety of providers in the various service 20 markets. We have new types of technology coming 21 on-line very rapidly and, frankly, because of 22 this very competitive atmosphere that's out 23 there, should someone have a problem with their 24 cellular carrier, boy, there's another carrier 25 right there ready to assume your business. 6475 1 So for that reason, why would we 2 want to continue to regulate and to cause 3 unnecessary paperwork, delay in moving out new 4 products and services because of having to file 5 papers at the PSC? 6 SENATOR ABATE: Would you 7 continue to -- Mr. President, would Senator 8 Seward continue to yield. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Senator, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR SEWARD: Certainly. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 13 yields, Senator. 14 SENATOR ABATE: I'm hearing about 15 the burden to certain companies because of 16 paperwork. There are two separate issues. If 17 an individual regulation is burdensome or how 18 that regulation is implemented in terms of 19 paperwork, shouldn't we be looking at elimin 20 ating a regulation but not just deregulating an 21 entire practice or industry? Isn't there a 22 middle ground? Let's look at those regulations, 23 make some evaluations instead of suspending all 24 of them, taking away from PSC its power and 25 responsibility to ensure consumer protection in 6476 1 this area? 2 SENATOR SEWARD: Well, Mr. 3 President, I feel our legislation does strike 4 that so-called middle ground by saying that we 5 will lift these regulations, what few the state 6 can under FCC regulations and rules continue to 7 impose. 8 We do strike that middle ground 9 because we are suspending the regulations for 10 one year and after that one-year period, the PSC 11 can take a look at the experience of that - 12 over that year period and then if it's 13 determined that regulation is needed, they can 14 reimpose it. 15 So I feel that we are striking 16 that middle ground and trying this approach and 17 if need be to go back to regulation, we give the 18 PSC the authority to do that. 19 SENATOR ABATE: Last question, 20 Senator. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Senator, do you yield for one more question? 23 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes, I will. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 25 yields. 6477 1 SENATOR ABATE: What happens in 2 that year experiment where we suspend the 3 regulations and I am a consumer and I do not 4 have money to hire an attorney or enter into a 5 class action suit and I want relief? I've 6 entered into a long-term contract. I'm 7 receiving poor service. I'm being charged 8 exorbitant rates. False advertising is involved 9 by this company. I want relief from 10 government. I want to still go to PSC and say 11 "I want you to investigate. I need you to 12 review patterns and practices." What are we 13 going to say to those consumers throughout the 14 state because we want to experiment and suspend 15 these rules for a year? What would your answer 16 be? 17 SENATOR SEWARD: Well, Mr. 18 President -- I think you will like my answer, 19 Senator Abate. I would suggest they call the 20 Attorney General. 21 SENATOR ABATE: That's one 22 avenue. That's a very expensive avenue. 23 SENATOR SEWARD: I don't think 24 the Attorney General charges in their Consumer 25 Frauds Unit, and I don't mean to be facetious 6478 1 here. I'm merely making the point, the Attorney 2 General does have a utility unit that would 3 handle a complaint such as this, as well as the 4 regular Consumer Fraud Unit. The Consumer 5 Protection Board is in place to handle 6 complaints and that would take care of a matter 7 that you're suggesting and, of course, the PSC, 8 both of these agencies also have direct contact 9 on an ongoing basis with the PSC. So if this is 10 a problem, then the regulation would be 11 reinstated but in addition to calling these 12 agencies which we have in place to handle 13 consumer complaints, the customer that you 14 outlined could very easily switch to another 15 provider and if they are experiencing a problem 16 - 17 SENATOR ABATE: This is after the 18 damage has been rendered and they're seeking 19 relief, though. 20 SENATOR SEWARD: M-m h-m-m. 21 SENATOR ABATE: If I could, on 22 the bill very briefly. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Senator Abate, on the bill. 25 SENATOR ABATE: In terms of the 6479 1 Attorney General's office, if you eliminate 2 rules and regulations, the responsibility of the 3 Attorney General is to enforce local and state, 4 federal rules and right now, the PSC has joint 5 jurisdiction with the Attorney General on a 6 whole host of issues in telecommunications. 7 We saw recently in the NYNEX-Bell 8 Atlantic merger, everyone was concerned that 9 there be -- competition remain in the state, 10 that with this new merger, we were concerned 11 about whether jobs would stay here, what would 12 happen with service quality, the cost to the 13 consumer. If PSC moved out of that arena, as 14 you're suggesting, with a cellular phone system, 15 the consumers would lose. 16 We're seeing now even with these 17 regulations enormous expansion in the 18 telecommunications market on all levels, whether 19 it's issues of Inter-LATA rates that are going 20 to be looked at and regional rates and long 21 distance, as well as cellular. It is much too 22 early to experiment with total deregulation. 23 A much more sensible route would 24 be to look at individual regulations that no 25 longer make sense to be amended because they're 6480 1 burdensome but to take the PSC out of review 2 altogether on cellular phones would put 3 consumers at risk throughout the state. 4 So I suggest and I hope that you 5 will look to amend this bill, take a middle 6 ground because I believe we need a balanced 7 approach, a balanced approach that protects 8 consumers while allowing a healthy and 9 competitive market in the telecommunications 10 field. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Any 12 other Senator wishing to be heard? 13 (There was no response.) 14 Read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Call the roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll.) 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Record the negatives and announce the results, 22 please. 23 SENATOR STAVISKY: To explain my 24 vote. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6481 1 Senator Stavisky, to explain his vote. 2 SENATOR STAVISKY: I have a 3 feeling that what I suggested here is a problem 4 has not sunk in. What will happen in the course 5 of a year if there are people who are injured, 6 who are dying because of accidents resulting 7 from the improper use of a cellular phone? 8 I have in my possession in the 9 office an advertisement taken from the cellular 10 phone industry which clearly, clearly shows the 11 dangers. There's a picture of a woman driving a 12 car while using a cellular phone and two 13 children are in the front seat with her where 14 they don't belong, and I think that that 15 exemplifies the wrong direction taken by this 16 legislation which deregulates instead of 17 addressing the problems, the real problem 18 associated with the use of cellular phones. 19 What will happen over the course 20 of this year if nothing is done? No warning 21 label? No warning label? "Do not drive while 22 operating a motor vehicle and using a cellular 23 phone unless there is an emergency." That could 24 be added to the bill and that could begin to 25 address the problem, but I see no effort being 6482 1 made in this legislation except to say that we 2 are deregulating and we will continue to 3 deregulate in the public interest. 4 Now, if a public interest 5 involves the safety and the health of people, I 6 think that is a serious enough consideration. 7 If the research that I've cited is valid - 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Senator, your two minutes to explain your vote 10 has expired. 11 SENATOR STAVISKY: I will 12 conclude. If the research I've cited is valid, 13 there will be hundreds and thousands of 14 accidents in New York State caused by the 15 distractions emanating from the use of a 16 cellular phone, and I would not wish to be on 17 the side of ignoring this record of safety or 18 lack of safety without an attempt being made to 19 amend this bill. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Senator, your two minutes is up. Please 22 announce the results. 23 SENATOR STAVISKY: For this 24 reason I'm going to be recorded in the negative. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6483 1 Senator Stavisky in the negative. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Senator Gold. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, 6 I - 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Are 8 you explaining your vote, Senator? 9 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. If you don't 10 mind, Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: I 12 don't mind. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I 14 respect the sincerity from my colleague from 15 upstate, but I really think this is a mystifying 16 bill. 17 Let me say to you, when you say 18 the complaints are minimum, then the costs are 19 minimum and they can keep it, and while I would 20 be very comfortable with the fact that if there 21 was a complaint made to Attorney General Abate, 22 that she would be sympathetic. The fact is that 23 under this bill, you take away the protections 24 in the Public Service Law, so there's nothing 25 the Attorney General can do. 6484 1 Senator, let me just tell you one 2 very, very quick story. I came home one night a 3 number of years ago, I got my bill, I went 4 upstairs and I said to my wife in front of the 5 children, "Judy, this is the last straw. It's 6 all over. This marriage isn't working." She 7 said, "What are you talking about?" I said, 8 "Take a look at this" and I showed her a 9 cellular bill, which I just called to verify the 10 amount, was $35,000. Now, for a month that 11 might be a little bit much even in your home, 12 Senator Seward. The point is that obviously it 13 was a fraud situation. Under existing law, I 14 called the company. They were very nice. 15 Things get taken care of. 16 Senator, now with all of the 17 fraud that goes on, they're getting not quite so 18 nice. Now they say, well, I know, we know 19 there's some fraud but why don't you identify 20 this and why don't you identify that. 21 I'm telling you, Senator, if you 22 take away the protections of the Public Service 23 Law, there's still going to be fraud but now how 24 do you enforce your rights? Now they say, Well, 25 okay, maybe fraud was part of it and now you're 6485 1 involved in a whole negotiation. 2 All I'm saying to you is there 3 are problems in this field. The people going 4 into it are decent people. The companies are 5 decent but the concept of taking this mass 6 market and the people involved in it and taking 7 away all controls is going too far too fast and 8 it's wrong. 9 I vote in the negative. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Senator, your two minutes is up. Senator Gold 12 in the negative. Would you please announce the 13 results. 14 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 15 the negative on Calendar Number 1459, Senators 16 Abate, Gentile, Gold, Leichter, Onorato, 17 Stavisky and Waldon. Ayes 51, nays 7. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 19 bill is passed. 20 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Senator Waldon, why do you rise? 23 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, I 24 was away from the chamber on other Senate 25 business when the house considered Calendar 280 6486 1 and 1135. I respectfully request unanimous 2 consent to be recorded in the negative on those 3 two bills. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Without exception, calendar -- Senator Waldon 6 will be recorded in the negative on those two 7 bills. 8 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 9 President. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Senator Larkin, what is your pleasure? 12 SENATOR LARKIN: Call up Calendar 13 Number 1455, by Senator Goodman. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 15 Secretary will please read Calendar Number 1455, 16 by Senator Goodman. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 1455, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5371-A, 19 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in 20 relation to tax exemption. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator Goodman, an explanation has been 24 requested. 25 SENATOR GOODMAN: May I ask who 6487 1 requested it, Mr. President? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: I 3 believe either Senator Leichter - 4 SENATOR GOODMAN: Senator 5 Leichter, all right. 6 Mr. President, this bill would 7 extend the terms of the Section 421 (a) of the 8 Real Property Law by one year. This is, I 9 think, familiar legislation to most of us in the 10 City. It was responsible over the past number 11 of years for the building of 111,000 units with 12 the accommodation of approximately one-third of 13 a million people in new housing accommodations. 14 It is a bill which, as you know, 15 is designed by creating a tax abatement to 16 induce realtors and construction developers to 17 build buildings in the city of New York, which 18 is, of course, a very important part of our 19 city's economy. 20 In the early years of this 21 legislation, the focal point of this was high 22 rise luxury building, but over time the 23 legislation was altered to make it clear that 24 this was not to be done within the so-called 25 luxury band from 96th Street to 14th Street on 6488 1 the East Side of Manhattan and that became a 2 geographic exclusion area. So that 421 (a) 3 scope is outside of that area and it will 4 encourage construction in both the outer 5 boroughs and parts of Manhattan that do not 6 focus upon luxury housing. 7 May I say that, in the event that 8 the housing is constructed under this law, that 9 a provision is made, developers must finance the 10 construction of off-site affordable units equal 11 to 20 percent of the units in the projects in 12 order to obtain a ten-year 421 (a) benefit. In 13 the non-excluded areas, ten-year benefits are 14 available as of right. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 16 if Senator Goodman would yield, please. 17 SENATOR GOODMAN: Yes, I will. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 19 Senator yields to a question. 20 SENATOR GOODMAN: Incidentally, 21 this is a City program bill. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, you 23 mention the fact that initially this program 24 really just led to the construction of luxury 25 housing. Presently, as I understand it, to be 6489 1 entitled to take this 421 (a) benefit, the tax 2 abatement exemption, you need to at least 3 provide 20 percent low income housing. 4 SENATOR GOODMAN: In the excluded 5 zone, that's correct. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Within the 7 excluded zone, but there's nothing in your bill 8 that provides for that. Is that under the city 9 law? 10 SENATOR GOODMAN: Well, let's see 11 if I can give you a direct response to that. I 12 know it's the law, but I can't tell you where 13 it's codified. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: I do believe 15 that that is the provision of the City 16 Administrative Code and it might make a lot of 17 sense to also embody this in the state 18 legislation, but there's another aspect that I'm 19 concerned about. I want to ask you if you'll 20 continue to yield, Senator. 21 SENATOR GOODMAN: Yes, I will. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator Goodman continues to yield. 24 SENATOR LEICHTER: While I 25 applaud the fact that we restricted the use of 6490 1 421 (a), my impression is -- and I don't have 2 the figures; this is an impression -- that we're 3 still seeing a great deal of construction, 4 mainly in Manhattan, parts of your district, 5 parts of my district, where really there is no 6 need to subsidize or to spur on the construction 7 of new housing and that, if you take a look at 8 the construction in the other boroughs, you take 9 a look at the construction in northern 10 Manhattan, Lower East Side, there's relatively 11 little of that going on, and my concern is that 12 this is still, in large part, a program that 13 seems to be directed at the construction of, 14 even the subsidizing of luxury housing. 15 SENATOR GOODMAN: Senator, as you 16 know, this very problem was what prompted the 17 bill's modification to the 20 percent provision 18 and it's my judgment that this creates a well 19 balanced series of incentives and benefits to 20 the public-at-large when one-fifth of all of the 21 housing constructed within the restricted zone 22 will be devoted to moderate income housing. 23 It seems to me this is a very 24 constructive total package. It's one which has 25 in a period of housing shortage with which we're 6491 1 very familiar and which was amply discussed on 2 the night of the rent discussions here in this 3 chamber. This is good legislation because it 4 provides a very muscular incentive in the form 5 of a tax abatement for the purpose of building 6 buildings and incidentally provide stabilization 7 during the period of that abatement, as you 8 know. 9 So that this is, I think, well 10 proportioned and I guess honest men will differ 11 as to the precise ways in which it might be 12 done, but I think it's in good balance and I 13 would not only encourage this but I think other 14 similar legislation is now called for to try to 15 alleviate the housing shortage. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 17 just very briefly on the bill. 18 I think Senator Goodman is 19 correct when he says that the program has been 20 improved. I'm not sure it's been improved 21 sufficiently. I'm going to support it because I 22 think it is important for parts of the City, 23 Senator, but I'm concerned, for instance, in my 24 district where a very large, primarily luxury 25 housing development is under way. This is 6492 1 Donald Trump's Riverside South, is going to have 2 some of the most expensive housing in the world, 3 maybe outside of Hong Kong and maybe even more 4 expensive than Hong Kong, yet that program may 5 very well be entitled to this 421 (a) housing 6 subsidy, and that's really the problem. 7 Well-intentioned as the program 8 is and carefully crafted as Senator Goodman, 9 city officials have sought to limit the program 10 so that it would be mainly available for the 11 construction of affordable housing, it's still 12 used in large measure to build luxury housing, 13 and I think we've got to ask ourselves whether 14 we're in a position and whether we want to 15 subsidize what is going to be primarily luxury 16 housing. 17 So I would like to see further 18 restrictions written in the program to direct 19 this money where it's needed, affordable 20 housing, not luxury housing, and I hope that 21 maybe in the City Council we can achieve some of 22 those changes. 23 Thank you. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 25 Read the last section, please. 6493 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Call the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 8 bill is passed. 9 Can we call up - 10 SENATOR LARKIN: 1457. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: - 12 Calendar Number 1457, Senator Cook's bill, 13 please. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 1457, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 5413, an act 16 to amend the Public Health Law. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect on the same date as a 21 chapter of the laws of 1997. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Call the roll. 24 (The Secretary called the roll.) 25 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 6494 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 2 bill is passed. 3 Senator Paterson. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 5 with unanimous consent, I'd like to be recorded 6 in the negative on Calendar Number 459 -- 1459. 7 Sorry. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 9 record will show Senator Paterson will be 10 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 11 1459. 12 SENATOR SPANO: Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Senator Spano, why do you rise? 15 SENATOR SPANO: Can I be recorded 16 in the negative on Calendar 1457, please. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Senator Spano will be recorded in the negative 19 on Calendar Number 1457. 20 Senator Stachowski. 21 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 22 President, can I have unanimous consent to be 23 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 24 1459. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6495 1 Senator Stachowski will be recorded in the 2 negative on Calendar Number 1459. 3 Senator Larkin, what's your 4 pleasure? 5 SENATOR LARKIN: Calendar 1462, 6 by Senator Kuhl, please. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 8 Secretary will read Calendar Number 1462, by 9 Senator Kuhl. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1462, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 5524, an act 12 to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 16 act shall take effect in 30 days. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Call the roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll.) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 22 bill is passed. 23 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Mr. 24 President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6496 1 Senator Oppenheimer, why do you rise? 2 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I would 3 appreciate unanimous consent to be recorded in 4 the negative on 1459. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Senator Oppenheimer will be recorded in the 7 negative on Calendar Number 1459. 8 Senator Larkin. 9 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 10 could we return to motions and resolutions for 11 one item. I believe you have a privileged 12 resolution at the desk. Please read the title. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 14 Secretary will read the title to the privileged 15 resolution. 16 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 17 Leibell, Legislative Resolution commending Dr. 18 Mark Levy upon the occasion of his 30 19 distinguished years as an educator with the 20 Mohonk Central School District. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 22 motion is on the resolution. All in favor 23 signify by saying aye. 24 (Response of "Aye".) 25 Opposed, nay. 6497 1 (There was no response.) 2 The resolution is passed. 3 Senator Larkin. 4 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 5 can we now go on Calendar 59-B, page 1, Senator 6 Volker's bill, Calendar Number 1441, Senate 7 Print 2092. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 9 Secretary will read Calendar Number 1441, 10 please. 11 SENATOR ABATE: Explanation. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Explanation has been asked for, Senator -- I'm 14 sorry. Let the Senator -- let the Secretary 15 read the - 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1441, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 2092, an 18 act to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Senator Volker, an explanation has been 21 requested. 22 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 23 we go from sexual predators to certificate of 24 merit. Well, at any rate, this is a bill that 25 has passed this house before, by the way, at 6498 1 least once and possibly twice, which relates to 2 extending the certificate of merit in actions 3 for negligence or malpractice against architects 4 who are professional engineers. 5 Presently, this doctrine is used 6 in relation to medical, dental and podiatric 7 malpractice suits and what this bill would do 8 would be to extend that concept to architects 9 and professional engineers. 10 Now, the process would be that, 11 in such an action, the person who made the 12 complaint would have to involve an architect or 13 professional engineer and accompany it with a 14 certificate of merit from an attorney showing 15 that at least one architect or professional 16 engineer has been consulted and the attorney has 17 concluded there is a reasonable basis for the 18 action and, Senator, now that we're here, we 19 can - 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Now that I'm 21 here, we can debate it. 22 Mr. President, if Senator Volker 23 would - 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 25 Senator, you have a question of Senator Volker? 6499 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Would Senator 2 Volker yield for a question? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Senator Volker, do you yield to a question? 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 6 Senator Volker. Why don't you hang around while 7 I think of one. 8 Senator, this section 3012 (a) of 9 the Civil Practice Law and Rules was enacted in 10 1986 really in a special situation involving 11 physicians, podiatrists, medical professionals 12 who very much needed this legislation because of 13 the crisis at that time in the area of medical 14 malpractice. 15 Do you think that the architects 16 and engineers have any basis to make a -- to be 17 trying to have this Legislature act on a 18 comparable statute when it appears that there 19 isn't really any relevant data at all that they 20 have been the victims of excessive lawsuits? 21 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, and you 22 and I, I believe were here in 1986 and it was a 23 crisis. There's no question about it at that 24 time. It was a severe crisis and, Senator, you 25 were here also, but I think there is a crisis in 6500 1 the area of architects and professional 2 engineers and the crisis is, in fact, pervading 3 through so much of the areas of construction and 4 various areas that, in effect, rely on the fact 5 that insurance premiums are such an integral 6 part of the life blood of these different 7 organizations. 8 The lawsuits against such 9 organizations as architects and engineers have 10 been escalating dramatically over the years and 11 not that the judgments against these people have 12 necessarily been so much higher because the 13 judgments probably have been lessened except 14 that in certain specific cases these people end 15 up sharing in some of the judges -- judgments, 16 maybe on a questionable basis, but the problem 17 is that the numbers of lawsuits, the exposure of 18 the insurance companies -- because the real 19 problem that I don't think is understood is that 20 a great deal of the problem that we have with 21 costs in our society relates to exposure and 22 that is the fact that you have to purchase 23 extremely high priced insurance that relates to 24 consumer costs. It's a major reason why 25 building costs have gone up dramatically. 6501 1 So I think what we're trying to 2 do here is develop a better process, frankly, so 3 that we can do construction in a much more 4 cheaper way and a better way. I think there is 5 a crisis, I think, in regards to architects and 6 engineers, and I think we're trying to deal with 7 that here. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: One other 9 question, if the Senator would yield. 10 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 12 Senator yields for another question. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, just 14 the issue of establishing the information that 15 would be requisite to bringing a suit, it would 16 appear to me that there's a greater encumbrance 17 that would be set upon the counsel for the 18 plaintiff in an action -- counsel really for one 19 who is being -- the plaintiff who is trying to 20 bring an action in a situation such as exists in 21 this bill, as opposed to medical malpractice. 22 In medical malpractice, it's not 23 very difficult to get the medical records to 24 consult with the other physicians that worked on 25 the case. They all work in hospitals. There's 6502 1 a regular network of people who work in the 2 health care industry that can be accessed. The 3 medical records are pretty straightforward. 4 They might be difficult for you and I to read 5 but not for people who are actually in the 6 industry, whereas the counsel for the plaintiff 7 in an action where perhaps a building has fallen 8 and has caused someone an injury is going to 9 have a devil of a time trying to compile the 10 evidence for discovery because you have not only 11 the architect but the subcontractors and other 12 companies that may have participated in the 13 structure of the building. You don't know that 14 the architect's plans were followed correctly. 15 There is a lot of interaction between those 16 different elements of the construction of the 17 building that may have gone wrong and it's going 18 to be very hard to pin an action on anyone. 19 So to pass legislation in this 20 regard where they would be able to have the 21 certificate of merit as is proposed, in my 22 opinion, creates almost a shield that would 23 almost make it impossible for a plaintiff to 24 successfully gain relief. 25 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, I don't 6503 1 agree with that. I think it -- I'm not saying 2 that it might not be a little bit more difficult 3 than it would be in the area of medical 4 malpractice, but that's why -- one of the 5 reasons that we put in Section 2 of this bill, 6 by the way, that the attorney was unable to 7 obtain the consultation required and that, in 8 effect, gives some out to the attorney, but let 9 me point out to you that it's true, I guess, 10 that this would make it a little more 11 difficult. 12 What it really means is that you 13 have to have some proof and some real solid 14 proof in these cases against these architects 15 and engineers rather than just including them in 16 a suit that may have absolutely nothing to do 17 with them but because they were there and 18 because they had something -- just a peripheral 19 connection, they end up in a situation where 20 they have to defend -- their insurance company 21 has to defend and the attorneys that represent 22 them have to defend and the cost to the people 23 soars. 24 I think that there are enough 25 architects and engineers around, to tell you the 6504 1 truth, who can advise in these kinds of 2 situations. So that I think it's much more 3 practical probably than it was even a few years 4 ago when we first started talking about this 5 bill, and I think the ability is there to do 6 it. I would agree with you that it's a little 7 more difficult maybe than it would be in 8 malpractice against doctors, and so forth. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 10 President. 11 On the bill. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Senator Paterson, on the bill. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm somewhat 15 satisfied that there probably are engineers and 16 architects that could come in and render a 17 degree with -- a certain degree of professional 18 certitude what -- certainty what the actual 19 result may have been and would be able to give 20 good guidance on who may have been at fault in 21 the case of a collapsed building. 22 However, it would seem to me, 23 going back to my first question, that a decade 24 ago we came together to put in this new section 25 in the Civil Practice Law and Rules, 3012 (a) in 6505 1 what was a highly special circumstance, one that 2 was very well known. It was documented. There 3 was a great degree of loss and suffering by 4 physicians and others in the medical 5 professional world and we gave them some relief. 6 What I think really has occurred 7 here is that you have a second group of 8 professionals who are now seeking the same 9 relief but don't really have the same problem 10 and one wonders where this will end? Will we 11 now have attorneys and perhaps accountants, 12 psychologists, teachers, anybody that feels that 13 their profession has come under great scrutiny 14 will now be running to the umbrella of Section 15 3012 (a) to try to get protection when, in fact, 16 the plaintiffs are put in these situations, I 17 would much prefer that there be a joint and 18 several liability where the contributors to the 19 erect -- erecting of the building might be held 20 responsible and let them work it out whose fault 21 it is between each other, but where you have an 22 injured party and they seek relief and it's 23 clear that it wasn't caused through any action 24 of the plaintiff, I think the action, in this 25 case, the legislation proposal should be denied 6506 1 and that we continue to reserve the CPLR section 2 that we put in a decade ago for the cases that 3 are totally clear and very special, such as what 4 we did for physicians and podiatrists and other 5 medical professionals. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Read the last section, please. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 9 act shall take effect on the first day of 10 January. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Call the roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator DeFrancisco, do you rise to explain your 16 vote? 17 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I do. I 18 vote no on this proposal, for several reasons. 19 First of all, there is -- we do 20 have it for doctors and podiatrists and dental 21 people and it's really a needless step because 22 if you have a lawsuit that's a legitimate 23 lawsuit, you certainly are going to get a doctor 24 to say it's a legitimate lawsuit. There's 25 doctors out there that will review a file to do 6507 1 that. The same thing with dentists and 2 podiatrists. It's a needless expense, a 3 needless step in the judicial process. 4 Secondly, to give a special 5 category to one profession or another profession 6 sets the law on its head. Everyone should be 7 treated the same way if they're negligent no 8 matter what profession or if they're a 9 professional or not. 10 So for both reasons, I think this 11 bill is ill-advised and I vote no. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Count the negatives and announce the results, 14 please. 15 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 16 the negative on Calendar Number 1441 are 17 Senators Abate, Connor, DeFrancisco, Gold, 18 Leichter, Paterson and Stavisky. Ayes 51, nays 19 7. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 21 bill is passed. 22 Senator LaValle, why do you 23 rise? 24 SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President, 25 may I have unanimous consent to be recorded in 6508 1 the negative on Calendar Number 1459, please. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Senator LaValle, you will be counted in the 4 negative on Calendar 1459. 5 SENATOR LAVALLE: Thank you. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Senator Larkin, what is your pleasure, sir? 8 SENATOR LARKIN: Would you now 9 call Calendar 223 on the regular calendar. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Say 11 it again, Senator. I didn't hear the number. 12 Calendar Number 223, please read. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 223, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 476-B, an 15 act to amend the Business Corporation Law, in 16 relation to corporate finance. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section - 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation. 21 What calendar number is that again? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Calendar Number 223. It was on the original 24 schedule. It was not taken up earlier. 25 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 6509 1 I have been told this bill is coming up, but I 2 don't see it on the calendar. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: It 4 was a bill that was starred previously. The 5 star was removed earlier today. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: The bill was 7 -- I thought there was a one-day notice 8 requirement before a star could be removed. 9 Mr. President, let me raise a 10 point of order whether this bill is properly 11 before us. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: If 13 we can just hold a second, we may have an answer 14 for you. 15 Can we lay this bill aside 16 temporarily. 17 SENATOR LARKIN: Lay it aside 18 temporarily. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Thank you, Senator. 21 Senator Larkin, that - 22 SENATOR LARKIN: Is there any 23 housekeeping? 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: No, 25 Senator. We don't have any housekeeping. 6510 1 SENATOR LARKIN: Let's stand at 2 ease. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: At 4 ease. 5 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at 6 ease from 5:25 p.m. until 5:36 p.m.) 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 8 will come to order, please. Members take their 9 places. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 11 can we at this time take up Calendar Number 223, 12 by Senator Skelos. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 14 Secretary will read the title. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 223, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 476-B, an 17 act to amend the Business Corporation Law. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 19 Secretary will read the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 71. This 21 act shall take effect on the 180th day. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Leichter, why do you rise? 24 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 25 I will explain my vote. Is this Calendar 223? 6511 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: This is 2 Calendar Number 223. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: 223. Mr. 4 President - 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You want 6 to explain you vote, Senator? 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: I would like 8 to explain my vote. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Let me 10 get to the roll call first, if you would. 11 The Secretary will call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Leichter, to explain his vote. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: All right. 17 Mr. President, last year we debated a similar 18 bill at quite some time. This bill has some 19 revisions and some of the objectionable features 20 that some of us found in the bill regarding 21 eliminating the liability of directors and 22 shareholders for the wages of corporations, as I 23 understand, has been taken out of the bill. 24 There were also objections that 25 some of us raised about the authority that was 6512 1 given directors to make loans to other 2 directors. That power has somehow been 3 circumscribed but there's still a way in which 4 directors can make loans and provide loans to 5 other directors. 6 It seems to me one of the big 7 issues in corporations is to provide for more 8 openness, for more democratic procedures within 9 the corporation and to cut down on the golden 10 parachutes, the enormous payouts, all of the 11 many ways in which shareholders are being denied 12 their rights. 13 This bill, I feel, goes in the 14 opposite direction. It does not provide for 15 greater shareholder democracy or greater 16 fiduciary responsibility on the part of 17 directors. I think it allows directors and 18 principal shareholders to deal with a 19 corporation pretty much as if it was exclusively 20 and solely their own rather than a business 21 entity that had responsibility to all of its 22 owners and for that reason, Mr. President, I 23 vote in the negative. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Leichter will be recorded in the negative. 6513 1 Announce the results. 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays 1, 3 Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 5 is passed. 6 Senator Bruno. 7 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, we 8 are at this time printing the emergency 9 appropriation bill to extend the budget for a 10 week and it appears that it's going to take, oh, 11 at least an hour. So since everyone has been 12 working so hard, it would appear to be prudent 13 and make sense for us to stand at ease until 14 7:00 o'clock and -- 7:00 o'clock sharp, and I 15 know that that limits the opportunity to have an 16 extended dinner but what we're trying to 17 accomplish, Mr. President, is to get what we can 18 get done tonight which would allow us to leave 19 and not be back tomorrow and not be back Monday, 20 hopefully, if we can get the bills done that we 21 have to be dealing with and then come back 22 Tuesday. 23 So if we're here at 7:00, I would 24 hope that we will have the agenda to complete 25 within the following hour or two, okay? Do you 6514 1 hear any objections, Mr. President? I don't 2 hear any. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Senate will stand at ease until 7:00 p.m. 5 sharp. 6 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at 7 ease from 5:40 p.m. until 7:15 p.m.) 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Senate will come to order. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Can we at this 11 time take up Calendar Number 507. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 13 will read Calendar Number 507. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar number 15 507, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 3580-A, an 16 act to amend the Private Housing Finance Law. 17 SENATOR SAMPSON: Explanation. 18 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 20 bill aside temporarily. 21 Senator Skelos, or excuse me, 22 Senator Bruno. 23 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, at 24 this time can we take up Calendar Number 899. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 6515 1 will read Calendar Number 899. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 899, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 4 4314-B, an act to amend the Tax Law, in relation 5 to extending - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 7 a home rule -- excuse me, Senator Bruno. The 8 bill is high, but there is a message at the 9 desk. Would you like to move to accept the 10 message? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 12 to accept the message of necessity on Calendar 13 Number 899, which is at the desk. All those in 14 favor signify by saying aye. 15 (Response of "Aye.") 16 Opposed nay. 17 (There was no response.) 18 The message is accepted. 19 Senator Skelos, an explanation 20 has been requested of Calendar Number 899. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 22 this legislation would amend the Tax Law in 23 relation to extending the authority of the 24 county of Nassau to impose additional sales and 25 compensating use taxes, extending the local 6516 1 government assistance program to towns and 2 cities, further authorize the establishment of a 3 local government assistance program for the 4 villages in the county. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Sampson. Explanation satisfactory. Secretary 7 will read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 9 act shall take effect January 1st, 1998. 10 SENATOR SAMPSON: Slow roll call. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Slow roll 12 call has been requested. Are there five 13 Senators in the chamber requesting? Would they 14 stand? I don't see five. Slow roll call is not 15 honored. 16 Secretary will read the last 17 section, or the roll call. 18 (The Secretary called the roll.) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 21 is passed. 22 Secretary will read Calendar 23 Number - 24 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays 25 one, Senator Gentile recorded in the negative. 6517 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 2 is passed. 3 Senator Bruno. Senator Bruno, 4 what's your pleasure? 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 6 can we at this time take up Senator -- Senate 7 Calendar Number 1425, by Senator Montgomery. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 9 will read the title. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 1425, by Senator Montgomery, Senate Print 2574, 12 an act authorizing the city of New York to 13 reconvey. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 15 a home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 16 read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 24 is passed. 25 Senator Bruno. 6518 1 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 2 can we at this time take up Calendar Number 3 1389, by Senator Levy. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1389, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 5566-A, an 8 act to authorize the incorporated village of 9 Freeport. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Bruno. 12 SENATOR BRUNO: Is there a 13 message at the desk, Mr. President? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: Move we accept 16 the message. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 motion is to accept the message of necessity on 19 Calendar Number 1389 by Senator Levy. All those 20 in favor signify by saying aye. 21 (Response of "Aye.") 22 Opposed nay. 23 (There was no response. ) 24 The message is accepted. 25 There is a home rule request at 6519 1 the desk. The Secretary will read the last 2 section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 10 is passed. 11 Senator Bruno. 12 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 13 can we at this time take up Calendar Number 752, 14 Senator Padavan's bill sorry, it's 1252. 15 SENATOR HOFFMANN: What calendar 16 number? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar 18 1252, Senator Bruno? It's on the regular 19 calendar, regular calendar of the day, Calendar 20 Number 59, I believe it is. Calendar Number 21 1252, by Senator Padavan. I'll ask the 22 Secretary to read. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 1252, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 5359-A, 25 an act to amend the Tax Law and the 6520 1 Administrative Code of the city of New York. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Bruno. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Is there a 6 message at the desk, Mr. President? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is, 8 Senator Bruno. 9 SENATOR BRUNO: Move we accept 10 the message. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 motion is to accept the message of necessity on 13 Calendar Number 1292 by Senator Padavan -- All 14 those in -- excuse me, 1252 by Senator Padavan. 15 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 16 (Response of "Aye.") 17 Opposed nay. 18 (There was no response. ) 19 The message is accepted. The 20 bill is before the house. An explanation has 21 been requested. 22 Senator Padavan. 23 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you, Mr. 24 President. 25 This bill comes to us at the 6521 1 request of the city of New York and their memo 2 gives a more succinct and direct explanation. 3 I'll read that part of it. 4 It says: This bill is designed 5 to provide relief from the City real property 6 transfer tax in cases in which a residence 7 subject to a pre-existing mortgage or lien is 8 transferred and the transferee takes subject to 9 or assumes that mortgage or lien. 10 Now, under the current law, the 11 taxable consideration for the transfer includes 12 the amount of the mortgage or the lien which is 13 really unfair and certainly a penalty to the new 14 buyer, so by passing this bill, it would bring 15 the City transfer tax into conformity with the 16 New York State transfer tax which has an 17 exclusion that's now allowed for continuing 18 liens. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 24 roll. 25 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6522 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 SENATOR SAMPSON: Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Skelos. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Please take 8 Calendar Number 792 by Senator - 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will read Calendar Number 792. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 792, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 5237-A, an 13 act to provide for adjustment of stipends. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Skelos. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there a 17 message at the desk? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 19 a message of appropriation at the desk on 20 Calendar Number 792. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Move to accept. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 23 to accept the message. All those in favor 24 signify by saying aye. 25 (Response of "Aye.") 6523 1 Opposed nay. 2 (There was no response. ) 3 The message of appropriation is 4 accepted. 5 Secretary will read the last 6 section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 8 bill shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 SENATOR SAMPSON: Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Sampson, why do you rise? 17 SENATOR SAMPSON: I would like 18 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative 19 on Calendar Number 855. 20 SENATOR KUHL: Without objection, 21 Senator Sampson will be recorded in the negative 22 on Calendar Number 855 passed earlier today. 23 Senator Skelos. 24 SENATOR SKELOS: Could you call 25 up Calendar Number 1442, by Senator Montgomery. 6524 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 2 will read the title to Calendar Number 1442, by 3 Senator Montgomery. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1442, by Senator Montgomery, Senate Print 2576, 6 an act authorizing the city of New York to 7 reconvey. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 9 a home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 10 read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 14 roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 18 is passed. 19 Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Please call up 21 Calendar Number 495, by Senator Hannon. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 23 will read the title to Calendar Number 495. 24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 25 495, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 3000-C, an 6525 1 act to enact the Cancer Research Improvement Act 2 of 1997. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Skelos. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there a 6 message at the desk? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 8 a message of necessity at the desk. 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Move we accept. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 motion is to accept the message of necessity on 12 Calendar 495. All those in favor signify by 13 saying aye. 14 (Response of "Aye.") 15 Opposed nay. 16 (There was no response.) 17 The message is accepted. 18 Secretary will read the last section. 19 Secretary will read the last 20 section. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 22 could you lay that aside temporarily. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll lay 24 aside Calendar Number 5 -- excuse me, 495, by 25 Senator Hannon, temporarily, Senator Skelos. 6526 1 SENATOR SKELOS: And I'd ask the 2 members to please assemble so that we can 3 complete in an orderly and reasonably early 4 fashion. 5 Next would you call up Calendar 6 Number 507, by Senator Leibell. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read the title. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 507, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 3580-A, an 11 act to amend the Private Housing Finance Law. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Skelos. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there a 15 message of necessity at the desk? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 17 is. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Move to accept. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 20 to accept the message of necessity on Calendar 21 Number 507, by Senator Leibell. All those in 22 favor signify by saying aye. 23 (Response of "Aye.") 24 Opposed nay. 25 (There was no response.) 6527 1 The message is accepted. 2 Secretary will read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 6 roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Record 9 the negatives and announce the results. 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays 11 one, Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 Senator Seabrook, why do you 15 rise? 16 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yes, Mr. 17 President. I'd like to have unanimous consent 18 to be recorded in the negative on Calendar 19 Number 855. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 21 objection, hearing no objection, Senator 22 Seabrook will be recorded in the negative on 23 Calendar Number 855. 24 Senator Skelos. 25 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 6528 1 would you call up Calendar Number 1409, by 2 Senator Stachowski. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4 will read the title of Calendar Number 1409, by 5 Senator Stachowski. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1409, by Senator Stachowski, Senate Print 5297, 8 an act to permit the reopening of the 9 twenty-year retirement plan for Thomas W. 10 Schultz. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 12 a home rule message at the desk or a facsimile 13 thereof. Secretary will read the last section. 14 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you call 19 up Calendar Number 495, by Senator Hannon. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 21 will read the title of Calendar Number 495. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 495, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 3000-C, an 24 act to enact the Cancer Research Improvement Act 25 of 1997. 6529 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Skelos. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there a 4 message at the desk? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 6 is. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Move to accept. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 9 to accept the message of necessity on Calendar 10 Number 495. All those in favor signify by 11 saying aye. 12 (Response of "Aye.") 13 Opposed nay. 14 (There was no response.) 15 The message is accepted. 16 Secretary will read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 20 roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll.) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 24 is passed. 25 Senator Skelos. 6530 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Please call up 2 Calendar Number 1379. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4 will read the title to Calendar Number 1379. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 1379, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 7 5506, an act in relation to granting Tier I 8 retirement status. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 10 will read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Stafford, an explanation - 16 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Bill is 18 laid aside. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 20 would you call up Calendar Number 1105. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will read the title to Calendar Number 1105. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 1105, by Senator Markowitz, Senate Print 304, an 25 act authorizing the city of New York to 6531 1 reconvey. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 3 a home rule message at the desk or a facsimile 4 thereof. Secretary will read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 12 is passed. 13 Senator Skelos. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Could we just 15 stand at ease for a moment, Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 17 will stand at ease for a moment. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Skelos. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you please 22 call up Calendar Number 1376. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 24 will read the title. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6532 1 1376, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 2 5490, an act to amend the Tax Law, in relation 3 to extending. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll.) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 Senator Skelos. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Please call up 16 Calendar Number 1377. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 18 will read the title. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 1377, by the Committee on Rules, an act to amend 21 the Tax Law, and Chapter 535 of the Laws of 22 1987. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 24 will read the last section. 25 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 6533 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 3 roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 7 is passed. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Skelos. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: There will be an 12 immediate meeting of the Finance Committee in 13 the Majority Conference Room. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Immediate 15 meeting of the Finance Committee. Immediate 16 meeting of the Finance Committee in the Majority 17 Conference Room, Room 332. Immediate meeting of 18 the Finance Committee in the Majority Conference 19 Room, Room 332. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 21 can we stand at ease. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 Senate will stand at ease. 24 (The Senate stood at ease from 25 7:44 p.m., until 8:03 p.m.) 6534 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 2 will come to order. Ask the members to find 3 their places, staff to find their places. 4 Senator Skelos. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 6 would you please recognize Senator Saland 7 first. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Saland. 10 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President, 11 I'd like to request unanimous consent to be 12 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 13 1377. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Without 15 objection. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 17 objection and with Senator Gold's consent, 18 Senator Saland will be recorded in the negative 19 on Calendar Number 1377. 20 Senator Skelos. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you call 22 up Calendar Number 517, by Senator Goodman. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 24 will read the title of Calendar Number 517. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6535 1 517, by member of the Assembly Feldman, Assembly 2 Print 6658-A, an act to amend the Real Property 3 Law. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect immediately. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 9 roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll.) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 13 is passed. 14 Senator Skelos. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Stand at ease, 16 Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 18 will stand at ease, momentarily. 19 (The Senate stood at ease 20 briefly.) 21 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Mr. 22 President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Hoffmann. 25 SENATOR HOFFMANN: As a 6536 1 convenience to the Senators, when you read the 2 calendar number, I wonder if you could also read 3 us the number of the calendar so we'll know 4 where the reference is. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 6 attempt to do that, Senator Hoffmann. That's a 7 very good point. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Skelos. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Please call up 12 Calendar Number 891, on the original calendar, 13 by Senator Goodman. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: On 15 Calendar Number 59, first calendar of the day, 16 brown/tan cover, we're going to up Calendar 17 Number 891, by Senator Goodman. Secretary will 18 read the title. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 891, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 4052, an 21 act to amend the Arts and Cultural Affairs Law, 22 in relation to the trust for cultural 23 resources. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 25 will read the last section. 6537 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 4 roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 8 is passed. 9 Senator Skelos. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: If we could 11 return to reports of standing committees. I 12 believe there's a report of the Finance 13 Committee at the desk. I ask that it be read. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 15 return to the order of reports of standing 16 committees. There is a report of the Finance 17 Committee at the desk. Secretary will read. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford, 19 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 20 following bill: Senate Print 6646, by the 21 Committee on Rules, an act making appropriation 22 for the support of government. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Skelos. Motion is to accept the report of the 25 Finance Committee. All those in favor 6538 1 significant by saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye.") 3 Opposed nay. 4 (There was no response.) 5 The report is accepted. 6 Senator Skelos. Senator Skelos. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 8 there will be an immediate meeting of the Rules 9 Committee in the Majority Conference Room. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Immediate 11 meeting of the Rules Committee. Immediate 12 meeting of the Rules Committee in the Majority 13 Conference Room, Room 332. 14 Chair recognizes Senator 15 Breslin. 16 SENATOR BRESLIN: Mr. President, 17 I would like to request with unanimous consent 18 to be in the negative on Calendar Number 855, 19 also would request unanimous consent to be 20 recorded in the affirmative on Calendar Number 21 280, 2-8-0. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 23 objection, hearing no objection, Senator Breslin 24 will be recorded in the negative on Calendar 25 Number 855 and on Calendar Number 280, Senator 6539 1 Breslin will be recorded in the affirmative. 2 (The Senate stood at ease.) 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate 4 will come to order. Ask the members to take 5 their chairs, staff to take their places. 6 SENATOR LARKIN: President Kuhl, 7 will you recognize Senator Stachowski, please. 8 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 9 President, may I please have unanimous consent 10 to be recorded in the negative on Calendar 11 Number 855, please. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 13 objection, Senator Stachowski will be recorded 14 in the negative on Calendar Number 855. 15 Senator Larkin, we have one piece 16 of housekeeping if we could do that. 17 SENATOR LARKIN: Motions and 18 resolutions. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motions 20 and resolutions. Return to that order. 21 Chair recognizes Senator Farley. 22 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr. 23 President. 24 On behalf of Senator Holland, on 25 page 9, I offer the following amendments to 6540 1 Calendar 339, Senate Print -- or excuse me, 2 Assembly Print 453-C, and I ask that that bill 3 retain its place. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 5 Amendments to Calendar Number 339 are received 6 and adopted; bill will retain its place on the 7 Third Reading Calendar. 8 Senator Larkin. 9 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, we 10 have a privileged resolution at the desk, if we 11 could just read the title. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 13 a privileged resolution at the desk. Secretary 14 will read the title. 15 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 16 Larkin, Legislative Resolution congratulating 17 Mr. and Mrs. L. Robert Scanlon on their 50th 18 wedding anniversary. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question 20 is on the resolution. All those in favor 21 signify by saying aye. 22 (Response of "Aye.") 23 Opposed nay. 24 (There was no response.) 25 The resolution is adopted. 6541 1 Senator Larkin. 2 SENATOR LARKIN: We'll take up now 3 Calendar 1480, Senator. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 5 will read Calendar Number 1480. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1480, Senator Stafford moves to discharge from 8 the Committee on Finance, Assembly Bill 8444 and 9 substitute it for the identical Third Reading 10 1480. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 12 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read 13 the title. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 1480, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, 16 Assembly Print 8444, an act making appropriation 17 for the support of government. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Larkin. 20 SENATOR LARKIN: Move to accept 21 the message. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 23 to accept the message of necessity and 24 appropriation which is at the desk on Calendar 25 Number 1480. All those in favor signify by 6542 1 saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye.") 3 Opposed nay. 4 (There was no response. ) 5 The message is accepted. The 6 bill is before the house. 7 Secretary will read the last 8 section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 12 roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Record 15 the negatives and announce the results. 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays 17 one, Senator Dollinger recorded in the 18 negative. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 20 is passed. 21 Senator Larkin. 22 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 23 there's a report of the Rules Committee at the 24 desk. Can we have it read. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 6543 1 return to the order of reports of standing 2 committees. There is a report of the Rules 3 Committee at the desk. The Secretary will read. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno, 5 from the Committee on Rules, offers up the 6 following bills: 7 Senate Print 1347-B, by Senator 8 Kuhl, an act to amend the Public Service Law; 9 1919, by Senator Libous, an act 10 to amend the General Business Law; 11 5248, by Senator Smith, an act 12 authorizing the city of New York; 13 4946, by Senator Breslin, an act 14 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law; 15 3510, by Senator Rath, an act to 16 amend the Tax Law; 17 4463-A, by Senator Leibell, an 18 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law; 19 4637, by Senator LaValle, 20 authorizing the creation; 21 4712-A, by Senator Nozzolio, an 22 act to amend the General Business Law; 23 4913, by Senator Alesi, an act to 24 amend the General Business Law; 25 5339-A, by Senator Velella, an 6544 1 act to amend the Insurance Law; 2 5510, by Senator Maziarz, an act 3 to amend Chapter 41 of the Laws of 1997; 4 5568, by Senator Maziarz, an act 5 to amend the Election Law; 6 5574, by Senator Hannon, an act 7 to amend Chapter 884 of the Laws of 1990; 8 5578, by Senator Kuhl, an act in 9 relation to the issuance of serial bonds; 10 5597, by the Committee on Rules, 11 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation 12 Law; 13 5599, by the Committee on Rules, 14 an act to amend the Civil Service Law; 15 5605, by Senator DeFrancisco, an 16 act in relation to reapportionment; 17 5613, by Senator Leibell, an act 18 to amend the Real Property Tax Law. 19 All bills directly to third 20 reading. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Larkin. 23 SENATOR LARKIN: Move to accept 24 the Rules report. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 6545 1 to accept the report of the Rules Committee. 2 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 3 (Response of "Aye.") 4 Opposed nay. 5 (There was no response. ) 6 The Rules report is accepted. 7 Bills are ordered directly to third reading. 8 Senator Larkin. 9 SENATOR LARKIN: Stand at ease 10 for a few minutes, Mr. President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Have some 12 order in the house, please. 13 Senator Farley, have some order, 14 please. Have to have conversations, take them 15 out of the chamber. 16 Senator Larkin. 17 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 18 we'll now go to Calendar 59-C, 19 non-controversial. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 21 will read the non-controversial reading of 22 Senate Supplemental Calendar 59-C which is on 23 all the members' desks, beginning with Calendar 24 Number 1446. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6546 1 1446, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 1347-B, an 2 act to amend the Public Service Law. 3 SENATOR FARLEY: Explanation! 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Larkin? Motion is to accept the message of 6 necessity at the desk. All those in favor 7 signify by saying aye. 8 (Response of "Aye.") 9 Opposed nay. 10 (There was no response. ) 11 The message is accepted. 12 There is a home rule message at 13 the desk. Secretary will read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 21 is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays 23 one, Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Leichter, you voting in the negative on that 6547 1 bill? The bill is passed. 2 Secretary will continue to call 3 the non-controversial calendar. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senate Print 5 1463, by Senator Libous, Senate Print 1919, an 6 act to amend the General Business Law. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 8 Libous, did I hear you saying lay aside? 9 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes, Mr. 10 President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Did I 12 hear you say lay aside the bill? 13 SENATOR LIBOUS: Is that the 14 opinion of the Chair? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I was 16 just asking, Senator Libous. 17 The Secretary will read the last 18 section. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Leichter wishes to lay the bill aside. 22 SENATOR LIBOUS: Lay that bill 23 aside. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Bill will 25 be laid aside. 6548 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1464, by Senator Smith, Senate Print 5248, an 3 act authorizing the city of New York. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 5 a home rule message at the desk. Secretary will 6 read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 14 is passed. 15 Secretary will continue to call 16 the non-controversial calendar. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 1465, by Senator Breslin. 19 SENATOR LACK: Lay aside. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senate Print 21 4946, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic 22 Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 24 a home rule message at the desk. The bill will 25 be laid aside. 6549 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1466, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 3510, an act 3 to amend the Tax Law. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Bill will 6 be laid aside. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 1467, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 4463-A, 9 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 12 bill aside. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 1468, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 4637, an 15 act authorizing the creation of a greenway. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 18 bill aside. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 1469, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 4712-A, 21 an act to amend the General Business Law. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 24 bill aside. 25 THE SECRETARY: In relation to 6550 1 Calendar Number 1470, Senator Alesi moves to 2 discharge from the Committee on Rules Assembly 3 Print 2224-B and substitute it for the identical 4 Senate bill, Third Reading 1470. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 6 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 1470, by member of the Assembly Lafayette, 9 Assembly Print 2224-A, an act to amend the 10 General Business Law. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 13 bill aside. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 1471, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 5339-A, 16 an act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation 17 to investment. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 20 bill aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 1472, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 5510, an 23 act to amend Chapter 41 of the Laws of 1997. 24 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 6551 1 bill aside. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 1473, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 5568, an 4 act to amend the Election Law. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 7 bill aside. 8 Senator Maziarz, why do you rise? 9 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yeah, I just 10 have a question. On Calendar 1472, was that 11 laid aside by Senator Libous or by Senator 12 Paterson? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: That was 14 laid aside by Senator Paterson. 15 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 17 will continue to read. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1474, Senator Hannon moves to discharge from the 20 Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 8110 21 and substitute it for the identical Senate Bill 22 Third Reading 1474. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 24 Substitution is ordered. Secretary will read. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6552 1 1474, by the Committee on Rules, Assembly Print 2 8110, an act to amend Chapter 884 of the Laws of 3 1990. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 6 bill aside. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 1475, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 5578, an act 9 in relation to the issuance of serial bonds. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 11 a home rule message at the desk. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 14 bill aside. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 1476, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 17 5597, an act to amend the Environmental 18 Conservation Law, in relation to use of 19 information. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside, 21 please. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Larkin, did you wish to move to accept the 24 message of necessity at the desk? 25 SENATOR LARKIN: Move to accept 6553 1 the message. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 3 to accept the message of necessity which is at 4 the desk on Calendar Number 1476. All those in 5 favor signify by saying aye. 6 (Response of "Aye.") 7 Opposed nay. 8 (There was no response.) 9 The message is accepted. 10 Senator Paterson, you wish to lay 11 the bill aside? 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Bill will 14 be laid aside. 15 Secretary will continue to read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 1477, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 18 5599, an act to amend the Civil Service Law. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 20 will read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 24 roll. 25 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6554 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 3 bill aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1478, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 5605, 6 an act in relation to the apportionment of 7 transportation. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 10 a local fiscal impact note at the desk. Bill 11 will be laid aside. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 1479, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 5613, an 14 act to amount the Real Property Tax Law. 15 SENATOR LARKIN: Is there a 16 message? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 18 a message of necessity at the desk on 1479. 19 SENATOR LARKIN: Move to accept 20 the message it. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is 22 to accept the message. All in favor signify by 23 saying aye. 24 (Response of "Aye.") 25 Opposed nay. 6555 1 (There was no response.) 2 The message is accepted. Bill is 3 before the house. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Bill is 6 laid aside at the request of Senator Paterson. 7 Senator Larkin. 8 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 9 on Calendar 59-C, let's start with 1463 on the 10 controversial. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 12 will read the title to Calendar Number 1463. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 1463, by Senator Libous, Senate Print 1919, an 15 act to amend the General Business Law, in 16 relation to store sale and rental of X-rated and 17 NC-17 rated films. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 19 SENATOR LIBOUS: Somebody ask for 20 an explanation? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Which 22 Senator asked for an explanation? I didn't hear 23 it. 24 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 25 Paterson. 6556 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Libous, an explanation of Calendar Number 1463 3 has been requested by Senator Leichter, please. 4 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr. 5 President. 6 Basically the bill would require 7 that the owner/operator of an establishment that 8 sells or rents motion pictures with an X rating 9 to maintain that these films or advertisements 10 for such films be in separate areas from the 11 non-X rated films. 12 Basically what we're saying is we 13 don't want to walk into Video King or a store - 14 I don't mean to mention that particular store, 15 but any one of these stores -- and we don't want 16 the movie, The Lion King, and Debbie Does Dallas 17 next to each other. There's requirements here, 18 we don't want people walking in to see. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Leichter. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator 22 Libous would yield, please. 23 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes. 24 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I - 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6557 1 Leichter. Senator Leichter, excuse me just a 2 minute. I don't know whether you can hear 3 Senator Libous, but I know I'm having a very 4 difficult time. If we could just have a little 5 order in the house. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President, 7 always possible to hear Senator Libous. If you 8 would be good enough to yield, Senator Libous. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Libous, do you yield? 11 SENATOR LIBOUS: I'd be happy to, 12 Mr. President. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I - 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 yields. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: You know, it's 17 with some diffidence that I ask you questions on 18 a bill in an area where obviously you're very 19 expert as we've seen by the way you were able to 20 advise us of certain titles that you didn't want 21 to be shown next to The Lion King, but - 22 SENATOR LIBOUS: I'm well read, 23 Mr. President, I'm well read. 24 SENATOR LEICHTER: But in all 25 seriousness, Senator, I think in an ideal world 6558 1 you certainly probably ought to do what you 2 suggest. I just question whether it's 3 practical. 4 Let me first point out you're not 5 talking about X rated movies, you're also 6 talking about movies NP-17. There's a lot of 7 movies that don't fall into what would be 8 considered pornographic category. I just 9 wondered, you have thousands of video stores 10 throughout this state. For instance, in the 11 upstate community, Senator Stafford's district, 12 there's a wonderful little store called 13 Everybody That Has Videos. 14 I just don't know how practical 15 it is to ask each of these stores now to set up 16 a separate area. 17 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, 18 actually, most of the stores are beginning to 19 set up on their own that way. It's very simple 20 with a door or curtain. It's really not an 21 awful lot of work. Many of the stores are 22 actually, Senator Leichter, beginning to do this 23 on their own. We just want to ensure that all 24 stores were doing it. 25 SENATOR LEICHTER: What? Mr. 6559 1 President, again if Senator Libous would yield. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Libous do you continue to yield? Senator 4 continues to yield. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, and 6 I'm -- I don't watch any videos, let me quickly 7 say, but while it's possible for some store to 8 do it, I think it is extremely difficult for 9 stores to partition off areas of their store. I 10 just really don't think it's practical, and I 11 think that you're going to very seriously 12 interfere with stores that sell Videos. 13 This is a big business. You talk 14 about, you know, economic life in New York 15 State. I submit to you, you're going to be 16 hindering that economic life. You're going to 17 be hindering people because the only alternative 18 is not to carry these particular titles or see 19 movies that they want to see. 20 I just really don't think it's 21 practical. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Gold. 25 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, I had some 6560 1 concern, Senator Leichter, but the truth of the 2 matter is that I mean I still have one young son 3 at home and my kids come home, and we happen to 4 be a family that likes movies, and so we go into 5 these stores and, Senator, if you go in and you 6 do movie rentals, you will find that the -- if 7 you want to find The Sound of Music or things 8 like that, you're crushed into more and more of 9 a corner of the store because apparently they do 10 a big business in this area and most of the 11 stores that I go into, they have already done 12 this, so economically they want to stock the 13 movies that are selling, and apparently these 14 movies sell pretty good, and most of the stores 15 have already set up these booths because 16 otherwise they can't get people to come in, so I 17 think the business world has already done this 18 and I think this bill is only catching up with 19 what the reality is. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 21 will read -- Senator Paterson, sorry. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 23 would Senator Libous yield for a question? 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Libous, do you yield for a question? 6561 1 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes, I would. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 yields. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 5 Senator. 6 Under the laws of the state of 7 New York, we require that the videos that are 8 sold in the stores display the motion picture 9 industry's labeling of what the content of the 10 movie is; is that correct? 11 SENATOR LIBOUS: Are you asking 12 me if that's correct? 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. 14 SENATOR LIBOUS: I believe it to 15 be correct, but I would have to read the law, 16 check it thoroughly, but would I believe it to 17 be correct. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: No, I believed 19 it was correct; I wasn't totally sure. 20 SENATOR LIBOUS: Are you 21 answering your own question, Senator? 22 SENATOR PATERSON: I wanted to 23 know if you knew as fact what I believed, but my 24 question is why are we leaving to the motion 25 picture industry and not deciding as a state 6562 1 ourselves what that designation should be? 2 SENATOR LIBOUS: Senator, that's 3 certainly an option that the state or any member 4 of this chamber can do in the future. Right now 5 I believe there's a need to address this issue 6 and, as has been mentioned by Senator Gold and 7 others, that some of the stores are beginning to 8 address the issue. Certainly any member can put 9 a bill in to do whatever they choose or whatever 10 they deem necessary. I happen to believe that 11 for right now, this is the right way to go. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 13 President. 14 Mr. President, on the bill. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Paterson, on the bill. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: I agree with 18 Senator Libous it is the right way to go. It 19 just struck me when I looked at the bill that 20 here we are as a state actually taking what the 21 motion picture industry designation of what the 22 -- what the movie's rating should be and 23 perhaps even in terms of our separating those 24 movies out in the actual video store, we may not 25 be separating them out as distinctly as we 6563 1 could be, so I'm in support of Senator Libous' 2 bill and since we're on the subject, I would 3 hope that in the future he might consider 4 perhaps even setting up a task force or some 5 commission so that we can make our own 6 determination, and perhaps Senator Leichter and 7 Gold could sit on the committee and that way 8 they could get to see all the movies without 9 anyone ever really knowing. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Smith. 12 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you, Mr. 13 President. 14 Would the sponsor yield for a 15 question, please? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Libous, do you yield? 18 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I 19 would be just pleased to yield to Senator 20 Smith. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 yields. 23 SENATOR SMITH: I believe that 24 I'm in favor of this bill, but I desire a 25 further clarification. I understand The Lion 6564 1 King, but could you please give me an 2 explanation of Debbie Does Dallas? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 4 will read the last section. 5 SENATOR LIBOUS: No comment. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect on the first day of 8 January. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 10 roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Record 13 the negatives. Announce the results. 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays 15 one, Senator Leichter recorded in the negative. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 17 is passed. 18 Senator Larkin. 19 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 20 will you now take up Calendar 1472. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 22 will read. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 1472, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 5510, an 25 act to amend Chapter 41 of the Laws of 1997. 6565 1 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Maziarz, an explanation of 1472 has been 4 requested by Senator Paterson. 5 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr. 6 President. 7 Mr. President, employees of the 8 public university systems who participate in 9 private annuity-based retirement programs 10 receive as the retirement incentive benefit, not 11 service credit as is the case for participants 12 in the public employees retirement system but 13 rather cash payments based upon years of service 14 and annual salary. 15 In 1995 and 1996, such payments 16 were subject to federal, state and local income 17 tax. The payments were also treated as current 18 income by the Comptroller and thereby adversely 19 affecting the amount of Social Security benefits 20 such that retirees would receive if they were 21 eligible for such benefits. 22 The tax treatment discourages the 23 number of persons who might possibly avail 24 themselves of the retirement incentive, thus 25 lessening the savings realized by the university 6566 1 systems in the state. 2 I also have a memo, Mr. President 3 and Senator Paterson, from SUNY-Brockport which 4 is in my district, and I think this is the case 5 throughout many of the SUNY units in the state 6 of New York, where they estimate that an 7 additional 33 individuals would probably take 8 advantage of the early retirement incentive 9 retirement package if this bill were passed. We 10 also have a letter of support from John W. 11 Ryan, Chancellor of SUNY. 12 Thank you, Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Paterson, you wish to - 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation 16 was quite satisfactory, Mr. President. Both 17 Senator Libous and I are satisfied. He actually 18 asked me to lay it aside. 19 THE SECRETARY: Secretary will 20 read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 24 roll. 25 (The Secretary called the roll. ) 6567 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 3 is passed. 4 Senator Larkin. 5 SENATOR LARKIN: Would you now 6 take up Calendar 1473. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary 8 will read. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 1473, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 5568, an 11 act to amend the Election Law, in relation to 12 special federal voters. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Maziarz, an explanation has been requested. 16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you very 17 much, Mr. President. 18 Is Senator Libous in the chamber, 19 Mr. President? Oh, there he is. I thought that 20 since Senator Libous asked that this bill be 21 laid aside, that he'd be interested in the 22 explanation. 23 Mr. President, there are many 24 U. S. Citizens who have never resided in a state 25 and under current law are not entitled to vote. 6568 1 They are usually first and second generation 2 citizens who are subject to U.S. income tax and 3 all other requirements for citizenship except 4 for the fact that they have never resided in a 5 state. 6 They would be eligible to vote in 7 federal elections only, and this bill would 8 allow that in the state of New York. This bill 9 was sent over by the New York State Board of 10 Elections. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Paterson. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm sorry, Mr. 14 President. If Senator Maziarz would yield for a 15 question? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Maziarz, do you yield? 18 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Surely. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 yields. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 22 Senator. 23 These are individuals who never 24 resided in the United States. 25 SENATOR MAZIARZ: These may be 6569 1 children of military personnel or people who are 2 U. S. citizens who are employed outside of the 3 country, missionaries. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: And you're 5 saying that they might participate in elections 6 on the federal level. 7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: On the federal 8 level only. That's what the Board of Elections 9 is saying, Senator Paterson. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: I see. What 11 is the explanation for why we wouldn't want them 12 to participate in any other elections; in other 13 words, what public policy would we fulfill by 14 doing this? 15 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I believe that 16 the answer is, Senator, that by federal 17 legislation they are designated as only special 18 federal voters. That's what the Board of 19 Elections memo said to us. 20 SENATOR PATERSON: Right, but my 21 question is, they're not allowed to vote in an 22 election that would concern the state, is that 23 correct? 24 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Correct. 25 SENATOR PATERSON: And my 6570 1 question is, even if that's how the federal 2 election law sees them, why would we as a state, 3 since we're legislating here tonight, why would 4 we want to impinge upon their ability to 5 participate in any state election? 6 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I'm sorry, 7 Senator. Could you repeat that question? 8 SENATOR PATERSON: I guess I'm 9 just asking why we're restricting them to the - 10 to voting in the federal elections? 11 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I believe that 12 since they never resided in a state, Senator 13 Paterson, federal law will only allow them to 14 vote in the federal election since they don't 15 reside in any one particular state and never 16 have resided in any one particular state. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 18 Senator. I think your answers have been quite 19 responsive. I think it's possible I may be 20 missing something about this bill, so I 21 apologize if I have confused you at all. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Gold. 25 SENATOR GOLD: Would the 6571 1 gentleman yield to a couple of questions? 2 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Certainly, Mr. 3 President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 yield. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I hate to 7 go backwards a little bit but I heard the 8 dialogue with Senator Paterson, and to tell you 9 the truth, I am really very stunned and don't 10 understand it. I'm certainly in favor of doing 11 everything possible to allow American citizens 12 to vote. I certainly I am not for that kind of 13 a limit, but I am perplexed as to what we are 14 really talking about here. 15 The memo says, according to the 16 federal voting assistance program in the 17 Department of Defense there are usually first or 18 second generation citizens who are subject to 19 U. S. income tax and all other requirements of 20 citizenship except for the fact they've never 21 resided in the United States. Is that what this 22 is about? 23 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes. 24 SENATOR GOLD: Can you tell me 25 what we're talking about in different kinds of 6572 1 terms? First of all, to vote you have to be a 2 certain age, is that correct? 3 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Right. 4 SENATOR GOLD: So these people 5 are now adults. 6 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Living in a 8 foreign country. Never lived in America, and I 9 don't understand the issue here. If they are 10 living in -- pick a country, I don't care, in 11 Europe, let's say and they're -- they've got 12 their lives involved in that country, they could 13 be married, for all I know; working, for all I 14 know, whatever, where is the exercise of 15 interest so that they would want to vote here? 16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Well, that's 17 their choice, Senator. Apparently enough of 18 them have contacted the state Board of Elections 19 with a desire to vote and that's why they 20 forwarded this bill over to the Legislature. 21 SENATOR GOLD: Now, this says 22 that they in some way are subject to U.S. 23 income tax. Are these people who have done 24 anything affirmative in order to become U. S. 25 citizens, in other words, I assume that if you 6573 1 have a U. S. citizen who happens to be, let's 2 say in Spain, part of the government, and they 3 are born in Spain of American parents then I 4 believe they are citizens, is that correct? 5 SENATOR MAZIARZ: That's 6 correct. 7 SENATOR GOLD: The child is 8 brought up in Spain, lives in Spain his or her 9 whole life, the parents come back to America. 10 Now, the child can be 24, 25 years old and 11 working in Spain, never been in America. Are 12 you saying that they are subject to American 13 income tax? 14 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I don't know 15 what the answer is on the tax question, 16 Senator. My learned counsel over here, Senator 17 Farley, is telling me that if they visit the 18 U. S. that they are subject to U. S. income 19 tax. 20 SENATOR GOLD: If they visit. 21 Well, Senator, I'm trying to -- I'm trying to 22 understand the situation. I certainly don't 23 have a problem with U. S. citizens who are out 24 of the country voting by absentee ballot because 25 they happen to be out temporarily or with people 6574 1 who work for the State Department, who happen to 2 be out of the country and exercising their 3 rights. This one is an unusual class and I 4 think that some of us are just having trouble 5 understanding who really makes up this class. I 6 mean who are they? 7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I think it 8 would be primarily children of American citizens 9 who were born overseas but who have never been 10 in the United States. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Gold. 13 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. I have - 14 if the gentleman will yield to a question. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Maziarz, do you yield again? 17 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes, yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 yields. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I'm 21 really curious to know, for example, what we're 22 talking about in terms of numbers. It sounds 23 like -- I mean let me put it in the form of a 24 question because I know Senator Rath wants - 25 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I'm 6575 1 clairvoyant, Senator. I anticipate what your 2 question is going to be. 3 SENATOR GOLD: That's because you 4 sit next to Senator Leibell. That'll do it. 5 SENATOR MAZIARZ: You're right. 6 SENATOR GOLD: I mean, first of 7 all, I feel sorry for all of these people who 8 never had the opportunity to go to Cuzco on 9 Saturday and Sunday, and Senator Leibell will 10 explain it, but when you put a bill in front of 11 us, and it says that, you know, you want to open 12 the door for U. S. citizens to vote, of course, 13 everybody on this side of the aisle looks at 14 their flag and feel very patriotic, but then I 15 say to myself, what are we talking about, and if 16 -- how many people are out there? What are we 17 talking about? We talking about people who have 18 nothing to do with this country apparently 19 except for the fact that they may have been born 20 from an American U. S. parent, and I say to 21 myself, why would they want to vote? If they 22 want to come back here as citizens, I would say 23 open our arms and certainly I don't want to 24 exclude anybody but it's just the whole thing 25 sounds a little bit bizarre to me. 6576 1 You got a 35-year-old man or a 2 35-year-old woman who lives in Australia or 3 Austria or Germany or Italy and they're living 4 their lives and they're working and they do this 5 or they do that, and they've got their family 6 and we're worried about whether they want to 7 vote in the United States election, and I don't 8 understand it. 9 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Well, Senator 10 Gold, it's really up to them whether they want 11 to vote in a federal election or not. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Don't you think we 13 have any interest in that? 14 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Pardon me? 15 SENATOR GOLD: Don't you think we 16 have any interest in that? 17 If the Senator would yield to a 18 question. 19 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, we got 21 bills on this floor which deal with the issue of 22 whether college students should be able to vote, 23 for example, in Ithaca if they're going to 24 Ithaca College or Cornell or whether we should 25 mandate that they vote where their parents live 6577 1 where their home is, because there could be 2 perhaps an unfair influence on local elections 3 by people who may be transients, so to speak. 4 These are college students actually living some 5 place maybe for four, six, five years, whatever 6 it is, and some of your colleagues have raised 7 the question as to their interest in the 8 locality, whether they should vote. 9 On the other hand we're being 10 told now that there are some people who have 11 never been in America, who are living in all 12 parts of the world, apparently no interest in 13 coming back here and we're putting in a bill 14 because they want to vote for who's president, 15 vice-president of this country, and I guess 16 Congress -- Congresspeople. That's a federal 17 election. I don't know whether they're included 18 in this bill or not, but they're going to turn 19 out to vote to decide who represents a 20 Congressional district where they don't live, 21 have no apparent desire to come back and are 22 living fruitful, lovely lives in Italy, France, 23 Spain, England or whatever. I'm trying to find 24 the rationale. 25 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Senator Gold, I 6578 1 have to say that I'm somewhat shocked that you 2 want to limit an individual's participation in 3 -- in government. I'm stunned, quite frankly. 4 SENATOR GOLD: I didn't say I 5 did. 6 SENATOR MAZIARZ: The way I - 7 the way I interpret your statement, I think you 8 did. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Well, if you will 10 yield to a question. Senator, I'm not saying I 11 want to limit anything. I'm trying to 12 understand the rationale, the difference in 13 philosophy between bills that have been put in 14 by your side of the aisle. 15 On the one hand you think that 16 college students, where it has been a matter of 17 years, where college students have no interest 18 where they're really living for years, but 19 you're suggesting that people who have never set 20 foot in America should be voting to determine 21 who our Congressmen are and who our Senators 22 are, who our presidents are. I don't understand 23 that particular philosophy. 24 I'm not saying they shouldn't do 25 it. Maybe you'll convince me. Question mark. 6579 1 SENATOR MAZIARZ: O.K. The 2 federal government, Board of Elections is 3 encouraging these people have a right to vote, 4 they're paying taxes, and I would do anything to 5 encourage voter participation. Now, you keep 6 referring to a law about college students. I 7 don't recall that law being voted on in the two 8 and a half years I've been here, Senator Gold, 9 but I -- I would not have voted for any 10 legislation that would have curtailed anyone's 11 right to vote in an election. 12 SENATOR GOLD: Senator -- Mr. 13 President, on the bill. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Gold, on the bill. 16 SENATOR GOLD: First of all - 17 first of all, Mr. President, I'm happy to hear 18 the statement that was made by Senator Maziarz 19 about he would not have voted to stop college 20 students from voting, and in all fairness, I 21 appreciate that. There are people on your side 22 of the aisle who were very concerned about that 23 particular issue. 24 I don't blame anybody -- anybody 25 in the world for wanting to be a U. S. citizen, 6580 1 and coming here and having the opportunity to 2 play golf with Mike Tully or just to enjoy our 3 country in general. 4 VOICE: The Assembly's adjourned, 5 I want you to know. 6 SENATOR GOLD: They're out? O.K. 7 I can't blame anybody for wanting 8 to be a citizen, so, Senator Maziarz, there are 9 people who come here illegally. There are 10 people who use all kinds of ruses in order to 11 get into our shores, just to live here and there 12 are people involved in immigration fraud. It's 13 a wonderful thing to be a U. S. citizen. So if 14 you've got somebody who in fact is technically 15 and in the most technical sense is a U. S. 16 citizen, because of birth, the accident of 17 birth, I don't blame them at all for cherishing 18 that citizenship and for wanting to take full 19 advantage of all of the rights of the citizens. 20 I don't blame them at all. 21 I do, however, find it strange - 22 well, let me go back one before that. I'd 23 really like to know the circumstances under 24 which they pay U. S. taxes. I don't pretend to 25 be an expert in that field, but the -- but I 6581 1 guess under federal tax laws, you only have to 2 pay taxes on what you earn in America and then 3 you probably get some kind of exemption if you 4 earn the money outside of America, so when you 5 say pay taxes, it maybe the most minimal of 6 taxes. If somebody wants to give us any money, 7 I guess just to keep the door open to being a U. 8 S. citizen, I guess that's very admirable and I 9 don't want to discourage them; but I do find it 10 a little ironic that we are passing legislation 11 and opening up the ballot boxes in things like 12 national elections, and again I didn't ask you 13 the question directly but from your lack of 14 response I gather I was correct when I included 15 Congressional races and U.S. Senate races 16 because it says federal elections. 17 Of course, I don't know -- I 18 don't know how you work the ballot. I guess 19 they get sent a special ballot which would only 20 have the federal candidates on it and, for 21 example, it wouldn't have as distinguished as 22 Senator Gentile is, I guess his name wouldn't be 23 on a ballot coming from that district, but it 24 just seems to me strange that people who are, by 25 choice at this point, because we're talking 6582 1 about adults choosing to live in various 2 countries all over the world and not set foot in 3 America, want to be that much involved with our 4 political system. 5 I know that it would be strange 6 if having come over here, and all of us at some 7 point came from some place else, if we all of a 8 sudden started to petition Poland or Hungary or 9 Russia for the right to -- to vote because at 10 one point in time some people in our family had 11 an interest. 12 So I say to myself, you know, 13 hurray for the federal government for a bill 14 which sets up a process, and I know that the 15 states of Georgia and Iowa and Tennessee and 16 Oregon have passed similar legislation. I think 17 it would be fascinating, Senator, to know how 18 many people actually have registered whose 19 parents, for example, were in Tennessee and went 20 across to Europe -- and I got about another 17 21 more points, but I see Senator Paterson is 22 standing. 23 Do you want me to yield, Senator? 24 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6583 1 Paterson, why do you rise? 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Would Senator 3 Gold yield for a question? 4 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, sir. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 yields. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, we 8 seem to have a different point of view about 9 this bill as I was expressing to Senator 10 Maziarz. 11 If individuals are connected with 12 this country, they may not live in this country 13 but they're connected with this country, and 14 they have voiced an opportunity, they have 15 voiced an interest in voting in state and local 16 elections here, I can only surmise, and perhaps 17 we'd have to ask Senator Maziarz, as to the 18 reason why, in other words, I don't know if 19 there's been any survey or any information that 20 would tell us why they want to be voting in 21 these particular elections. 22 I don't think there are enough of 23 them so this could be an organized effort to try 24 to swing or sway any campaign, but if they had 25 this interest, I would think that since they are 6584 1 really technically citizens of this country, 2 that we would want to encourage them. Perhaps 3 they're thinking of moving to the States when 4 they complete their service overseas or 5 something like that, and so my question to you 6 is, why would we not want to encourage them? 7 The participation might eventually lead to their 8 relocating in that particular area. There's 9 some reason that they want to have that interest 10 and I was wondering if you would comment on that 11 or - 12 SENATOR GOLD: I'll be glad to. 13 Senator Paterson, first of all, I understand 14 your point, and I think there is a lot of logic 15 to your point. If somebody is going to be 16 registered in the state and why would they not 17 care about the state elections as much as 18 federal elections. 19 But what I -- you made one 20 comment, Senator Paterson, and you make an 21 assumption which may or may not be true. You 22 say when they finish with their term, Senator. 23 The bill talks about people who are citizens and 24 they never have been here, and what I'm 25 suggesting to you is, that for the most part 6585 1 this could be children of people who work in the 2 foreign service and who stayed over there and 3 who are not in the foreign service at all, but 4 maybe their parents were in the foreign service, 5 they were born, they're technically American 6 citizens. They've gone to Italian schools. 7 They -- as many of us who have been to Italy 8 fall in love with the country and they decide to 9 stay there and visit the museums and live their 10 lives in some of the beautiful cities and now 11 have made a choice. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Gold, Senator Gold. Could I interrupt you just 14 for a minute. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Of course, sir. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 monologie that you seem to be going through now 18 is so illuminating that we want to make sure 19 it's captured on the transcript and the 20 stenographer has sent a message to me indicating 21 that she is having a very difficult time hearing 22 you as you're turning around and turning your 23 back to the microphone, so if you could just for 24 the ease of the stenographer if nobody else, 25 talk into the microphone, I would appreciate it 6586 1 and I know she would. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I 3 have always had the greatest admiration and 4 respect for our stenographer. The fact that she 5 now wants to hear what I'm saying has lowered 6 her a little bit in my estimation. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Gold, I didn't say that. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, Mr. 10 President, I'd be glad to be cooperative. 11 What I was saying, Senator 12 Paterson, and I hope you'll excuse my back, is 13 that these are not people as I see it who have 14 been here and who are away on diplomatic 15 missions and coming back, but people as defined 16 by the bill itself who have never been in 17 America, and since they are adults and of voting 18 age, I can only make the assumption that they 19 have chosen to live in another country, and 20 while I am very, very chauvinistic about America 21 and I tell you that I wouldn't want to live any 22 place else in the world, I would be untruthful 23 if I didn't tell you that on the number of 24 occasions I have been to Italy, I love it, I'm 25 comfortable there. The people are wonderful and 6587 1 I can understand why somebody lives in Italy and 2 enjoys Italy, and -- but if they're there and 3 they're doing that and they are comfortable, I 4 say to myself, I'm not saying close the door on 5 their voting here, but I say what is behind this 6 bill. Why would they want to vote in elections 7 for a country that they have never ever been in? 8 Now, I have ancestors. My 9 ancestry come from Hungary and from Poland and 10 every once in a while I may or may not like 11 something that happens in those areas of the 12 world and I say, Wouldn't it be interesting if I 13 could vote in those elections and turn around 14 some of the things in their government, and most 15 people here would say that's kind of ludicrous, 16 and I'm just wondering therefore, you know, 17 really, what gets behind this bill? 18 Where is this mass of people that 19 the federal government passed this legislation, 20 this enabling legislation, and why states are 21 getting all excited about it? 22 So, Senator Paterson, I think you 23 are probably right on target, if we're going to 24 do this, I don't know why we wouldn't say, well, 25 if they're that interested in America, and they 6588 1 feel American that strongly that they want to 2 vote, why not go all of the way, you know, why 3 not, not only let them vote in the -- for the 4 president and the vice-president and for the 5 United States Senate -- I think, Mr. President, 6 that my distinguished friend from Syracuse is 7 trying to get your attention, Mr. President. I 8 know I've lulled you a little but I think he's 9 trying to - 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 DeFrancisco, why do you rise? 12 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I wonder if 13 Senator Gold would yield to a question. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Gold? 16 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, I could use 17 the rest. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 yields. 20 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Knowing 21 that you're a very intelligent man, and that you 22 always do things for a purpose. 23 SENATOR GOLD: I wish you 24 wouldn't go any further than that. 25 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: And it's 6589 1 obvious that the purpose of your dialogue or 2 monologue here is not to illuminate anybody on 3 anything, I would request if you would please be 4 honest enough to tell everybody here assembled 5 at 9:35 what the true motive of this nonsense 6 is. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, 8 since I'm not the one responsible for the 9 nonsense, I can't tell you the motive behind it. 10 SSENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Well, if 11 you - 12 SENATOR GOLD: And let me finish 13 my answer saying this, Senator. We all have our 14 pluses, our minuses. We all have our 15 personalities and one -- one of my -- we all 16 have press clippings. You can't be in politics 17 without having press clippings. But the 18 proudest -- one of my proudest press clippings, 19 Senator, goes back to college and they wrote up 20 one of my boxing matches and the guy was smart 21 enough to realize that I was more of a counter 22 puncher than anything and the other guy would 23 take the first punch and then I was very 24 fortunate in college; I managed to get enough in 25 so that I never lost a fight, but I had to get 6590 1 hit first. 2 So I react, Senator, and if there 3 is nonsense going on here, believe me, it is not 4 me with the first punch. Me on this side, 5 Senator Gold and others, we're counter punchers 6 and so, if there's nonsense here, there's a way 7 of ending it, but unfortunately you have to talk 8 to the people who started it. 9 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Would you 10 yield? Would Senator Gold yield to another 11 question? 12 SENATOR GOLD: To you, of 13 course. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Gold yields. 16 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Would you 17 answer my question as to whether or not the 18 reason for your monologue is that the Senate 19 Majority had the audacity of laying some bills 20 aside of the Senate Minority? 21 SENATOR GOLD: I hadn't noticed. 22 Did they do that? 23 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I'm asking 24 you, could you honestly answer that question? 25 SENATOR GOLD: Well, I think 6591 1 that, Senator, I think that the level of honesty 2 in this chamber is something which is very 3 important, and I think that again as someone who 4 reacts, it is up to the Majority to set that 5 level of honesty and I tell you I will not go 6 below that level of honesty, but I'm not going 7 to go too much the other way either, and if 8 you're telling me, Senator, and I'm shocked to 9 hear it, shocked to hear it, that the Majority 10 has laid aside some bills of the Minority 11 members in this house, I say to myself what 12 possibly could be the motivation for such a vile 13 act? 14 But I -- you're telling me 15 something, I haven't really been following the 16 calendar. I just feel that there is a Senator 17 in this house by the name of Maziarz who I like 18 a lot and I figure, if he puts a bill on this 19 floor that it's something that is deserving of 20 serious consideration, and you can't respect - 21 God bless you; somebody sneezed on the truth - 22 and Senator, the only way you can show respect 23 is by showing respect. You don't talk about 24 it. You show it and, therefore, the respect I 25 have for the Senator is such that I wanted to 6592 1 show my respect by paying full attention to this 2 bill and making sure that I understood it 3 properly before I cast a vote. 4 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: And that's 5 your honest answer. 6 SENATOR GOLD: That's a tough 7 question. That's a tough one, but that is my 8 answer. 9 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: May I ask 10 Senator Gold one other question? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Gold, do you continue to yield? 13 SENATOR GOLD: Pleasure to 14 yield. 15 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Senator 16 Gold, do you think it's appropriate -- a proper 17 course of action for someone to lay a bill aside 18 in the event that they had a question about a 19 bill? 20 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I -- to 21 give you an easy answer, yes. I wish you'd 22 please tell that to Senator Skelos. He seems to 23 resent it more than most. 24 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Well, 25 apparently others do tonight as well. 6593 1 My question is, if someone had a 2 legitimate question, would it be all right to 3 ask a Minority member whose bill has been laid 4 aside? 5 SENATOR GOLD: I would be 6 disappointed if you didn't. 7 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Well, with 8 that clarification and that show of sincere 9 honesty by Senator Gold, I have nothing further 10 to ask him. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator 12 yield to a question? 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 14 President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Paterson, why do you rise? 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 18 I want to know if Senator DeFrancisco would 19 yield to a question? 20 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: 21 Absolutely. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Why do you ask him 23 to yield to a question? 24 SENATOR PATERSON: My money is as 25 good as yours. 6594 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Paterson, Senator DeFrancisco has indicated that 3 he would yield to a question. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, if 5 there was a question about a bill that was 6 introduced by a member of the Minority, perhaps 7 you and I might be able to settle this whole 8 issue right here. 9 I would suggest that we ask 10 Senator Maziarz if he would lay his bill aside, 11 that we call up that bill by the member of the 12 Minority and that right now we would be more 13 than willing to listen to the questions. 14 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: So what is 15 the question? 16 SENATOR PATERSON: The question 17 is what do you think? 18 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I think 19 it's immaterial. We have many bills to go, and 20 I would think that once the bills were called on 21 the Minority members, questions would be asked 22 and you would have your answer, but to -- we'll 23 probably have another Rules meeting. If you 24 want to hold bills up, you can do that but to go 25 on a monologue of -- well, to go on a monologue 6595 1 like the monologue we have been hearing is not 2 productive. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President. 4 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes -- oh, 5 excuse me. I'm not Mr. President. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 7 I think that Senator DeFrancisco has done us a 8 huge favor, and I think that perhaps his 9 entering the discussion may truncate this whole 10 process considerably because he's raised an 11 issue relating to what might be the validity of 12 this discussion and while I was particularly 13 interested -- and I had a few more questions for 14 Senator Gold, but maybe we'll take our 15 conversation out of the chamber -- the reality 16 is that this is not an isolated incident. This 17 is a pattern of occasions where we feel that we 18 were assured that there was legislation coming 19 before the floor. It went through the Rules 20 Committee and somewhere between the Rules 21 Committee and the floor it didn't seem to 22 materialize, and so if the question is should we 23 go in order and wait for the bill to come up, we 24 don't know the point at which whatever vital 25 legislation that the Majority felt needed to 6596 1 come on the floor tonight would actually have 2 been fulfilled and then at that point I 3 understand this is a last day, we might recommit 4 all the bills and we'll be back here in January 5 starting the process all over again. Now - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Paterson, may I just interrupt for a minute. I 8 think we're trying to be or at least the Chair 9 is trying to be very accommodating this evening. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: And we 13 are really stretching the question of 14 germaneness to the bill that's before us. I 15 think you're addressing more the issue - 16 SENATOR PATERSON: You know, Mr. 17 President, I thought the germaneness should have 18 come up about ten minutes ago. I'm surprised it 19 came up when I had the floor, but I'll conclude. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Paterson, I think you had one win this session 22 and I don't want to extend it any farther, and 23 that's not a mean-spirited statement. I just 24 want to try to keep some decorum and we really 25 are rambling far beyond the topic that Senator 6597 1 Maziarz' bill addresses. I never have an idea 2 as to who's going to ask what type of question 3 up here, but it's obvious from the pattern of 4 the dialogue that's gone back and forth between 5 Senator DeFrancisco, Senator Gold and now 6 yourself, that this discussion really is not 7 germane to the topic before the house. 8 So I would hope that you would 9 conclude your statements. If you have some 10 questions relative to Mr. -- or Senator Maziarz' 11 bill, I certainly would entertain them. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: You are right, 13 Mr. President. I am going to conclude. I 14 thought it had to do with citizenship and I 15 thought it had to do with democracy and I 16 thought it had to do with what this state's 17 Constitution stands for, an equal 18 representation. 19 42 percent of the members of this 20 house happen to be in the Minority party. I 21 would like to take the number of bills passed by 22 the Minority, divide them by the whole and I'll 23 bet we come out with something less than three 24 percent. 25 So that really is vital to what 6598 1 Senator Maziarz is talking about. He's talking 2 about inclusion. He's talking about people who 3 aren't even in this country who we're going to 4 give the opportunity to vote in the state 5 elections. I'm talking about individuals who 6 are right here in this chamber and don't seem to 7 have the opportunity to participate in the 8 business of the Senate right here in this 9 chamber, but you are right, Mr. President. If 10 you don't feel it's germane, I'll conclude just 11 by saying this. 12 I think what we might do at this 13 point is to ask the Majority to lay this bill 14 aside. We'll take up the issue since we 15 understand this bill is coming before the floor 16 and we can debate it right now and then go back 17 to regular order and then everyone's interest 18 would be satisfied. It would just be a matter 19 of moving one bill. It should take whatever 20 time it takes to ask and answer those questions 21 and I suggest, as I conclude, that that would 22 end this process. We would be well on our way 23 to conclusion this evening. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Waldon, why do you rise? 6599 1 SENATOR WALDON: I was trying to 2 ask the learned gentleman from the village of 3 Harlem a question or two but was not recognized 4 in a timely fashion. 5 Would he permit me to ask a 6 question or two? I was out of the chamber when 7 we began the discussion on 5568. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Waldon, what's your request again? 10 SENATOR WALDON: I would like to 11 ask Senator Paterson a question or two. I asked 12 would the gentleman from the village of Harlem 13 yield. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Paterson, do you yield to a question from 16 Senator Waldon? 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 18 with just the proviso that it does relate to 19 Senator Maziarz' bill, I would be happy to 20 answer the question. So long as I feel it's 21 germane, Senator Waldon. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank 23 you, Senator Paterson. 24 The gentleman yields. 25 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr. 6600 1 President. 2 I would sincerely hope that 3 within what I say, you will find something which 4 is germane. 5 Senator Paterson, do you recall 6 that on this floor we've dealt recently with 7 some bills proposed by Senator Padavan which 8 spoke to the issue -- he's not here -- which 9 spoke to the issue of people who are foreign 10 born attending colleges and having other 11 benefits which normally just the citizens of 12 this country are allowed to receive, according 13 to his thought process in his bill. 14 Is there any possibility from 15 your awareness of this bill that the people 16 excluded by what Senator Padavan would like to 17 propose could ever vote on what Senator Maziarz 18 has just proposed? 19 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr. 20 President. 21 Senator Waldon, apparently we 22 have different classifications of citizenship. 23 We have individuals that may not have ever been 24 present on our soil, may not have really 25 participated in our government and may not 6601 1 actually have any interest in what goes on here, 2 as Senator Gold pointed out quite thoroughly, 3 and yet they are preferred in some respects to 4 individuals who may have actually lived here, 5 may have actually in many ways contributed large 6 amounts of their government -- large amounts of 7 their salaries and large amounts of their 8 personal resources to sustain our government and 9 are basically heavily scrutinized right here in 10 our land, but I would imagine that the answer 11 that Senator Maziarz would have given or what 12 he's putting forth in his bill is that since 13 there's no dispute over the classification of 14 their citizenship, that they, therefore, would 15 be entitled not only to vote in federal 16 elections but with the enabling federal statute 17 that's been passed, would grant us in the state 18 and local governments the opportunity to vote in 19 the local elections. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Waldon. 22 SENATOR WALDON: Would the 23 gentleman yield to one or two more questions, 24 Mr. President? 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6602 1 Paterson, do you continue to yield? 2 SENATOR PATERSON: I'd be 3 delighted. 4 SENATOR WALDON: Senator 5 Paterson, the people who Senator Padavan was 6 targeting his legislation towards, to my 7 understanding, as a group are not very active in 8 terms of holding public office. If you know 9 better than that, correct me, but would the 10 people covered by Senator Maziarz' bill be 11 allowed to hold public office in this country? 12 SENATOR PATERSON: I would 13 imagine, Senator Waldon, that in spite of the 14 citizenship, they would be barred from holding 15 public office and if Senator Maziarz has further 16 information, I'd be certainly willing to have 17 him join us in this part of the discussion, that 18 they would not conform to our residency 19 requirements since they do not actually live 20 anywhere in the jurisdiction of any of the 50 21 states and, therefore, I would -- I would 22 imagine in that respect that they would be 23 barred from running for public office. 24 However, just by simply moving 25 into the jurisdictions within a year of any 6603 1 election, that would give them that opportunity 2 even though, as compared to those who seem to be 3 the targets of Senator Padavan's legislation, 4 they actually would have only that period of 5 time to learn our government, to learn our ways, 6 to learn our culture and yet would be far more 7 eligible than those who may have resided here 8 for long periods of time, including legal 9 permanent residents who are not allowed to vote 10 in any of the states and are restricted in New 11 York State to only voting in school board 12 elections where, in fact, we have only a five to 13 seven percent turnout in these elections. 14 So at a point when we have under 15 50 percent of the people voting in our 16 presidential elections, nearly one-fifth of our 17 population voting in primaries -- in our New 18 York State primaries for the Governor and the 19 United States Senate in 1994 and so few people 20 voting in elections and we're constantly talking 21 about trying to -- to encourage people to vote, 22 why we would not want to extend that courtesy to 23 individuals -- 11 of them who were legal 24 permanent residents in New York State died in 25 the conflict in Desert Storm -- is really an 6604 1 anathema to me, and I think it's a point well 2 taken, very germane to the legislation but very 3 apt for the topic when we start comparing human 4 beings and what burdens we put on them based on 5 what really are some technical classifications. 6 SENATOR WALDON: Last question, 7 if I may, Mr. President, if the learned 8 gentleman will continue to yield. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Paterson, do you continue to yield? The Senator 11 continues to yield. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, I do, Mr. 13 President. 14 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 15 much, Mr. President, for your patience and yours 16 as well, Senator Paterson. 17 Senator Paterson, the people 18 covered by Senator Maziarz' bill, to your 19 knowledge, are they dual citizens if this works 20 in terms of allowing them to vote in the federal 21 elections, or are they dual citizens because 22 they have a parent who is an American? Is there 23 a distinction between this group of people 24 characterized by this proposal versus those 25 characterized by the proposals of Senator 6605 1 Padavan in terms of the legislation that he has 2 proposed which restricts benefits for school, et 3 cetera, et cetera, et cetera? And that's my 4 last question, Senator Paterson. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 6 my response to Senator Waldon's comment is that 7 I think that it's actually the residing country 8 that would make the decision in that regard 9 since the United States does not have a dual 10 citizenship policy, to my knowledge, and, 11 therefore, if the individual, for instance, 12 lived in the United States as what has happened 13 to a number of citizens in this country who hail 14 from the Dominican Republic, they were granted 15 dual citizenship by their new president Lionel 16 Fernandez and, therefore, as of last August when 17 he was sworn into office, they were allowed to 18 vote in the United States and retain their 19 Dominican citizenship and that's the reason that 20 so many of them voted and the first Dominican 21 was elected to statewide office in New York 22 State, Assemblyman Espaillat, who resides in my 23 Senatorial District. 24 At the same time, we, in terms of 25 those individuals who are outside the country 6606 1 who are part of Senator Maziarz' bill, would 2 have to make the choice since the United States 3 does not allow for the dual citizenship status. 4 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 5 much, Senator Paterson. 6 Thank you, Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there 8 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill? 9 (There was no response.) 10 The Secretary will read the last 11 section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 15 roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 19 is passed. 20 Senator Larkin. 21 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 22 can we now take up 1474, by Senator Hannon. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 24 Secretary will read the title to Calendar Number 25 1474. 6607 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1474, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly 3 Committee on Rules, Assembly Print 8110, an act 4 to amend Chapter 884 of the Laws of 1990. 5 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation, 6 please. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Hannon, an explanation of Calendar Number 1474 9 has been requested. 10 SENATOR HANNON: This is an 11 extender of the current law that allows there be 12 paid to diagnostic and treatment centers and 13 certified home health agencies money from the 14 bad debt and charity care pools. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Paterson. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very 18 much. 19 Would Senator Hannon yield for a 20 question? 21 SENATOR HANNON: Yes, Mr. 22 President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Hannon, do you yield? The Senator yields. 25 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, the 6608 1 extender that we're acting upon tonight is an 2 extension of what would be awarded from the bad 3 debt and charity pool emanating from legislation 4 that commenced when? 5 SENATOR HANNON: Commenced when? 6 SENATOR PATERSON: In other 7 words, when was the period that we first passed 8 this? We're granting a one-year extender, and 9 so often it's the case that we extend things so 10 much around here, we don't know when they 11 started, and so that's just my question. When 12 did we first start doing this? 13 SENATOR HANNON: January 1, 1997. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Paterson. 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Do you have 17 any information that you can share with me as to 18 whether or not we've granted this authority from 19 the bad debt and charity pool prior to this 20 year? 21 SENATOR HANNON: The predecessor 22 pools which existed under the predecessor 23 financing system had monies that paid money into 24 the -- these entities, but those -- those pools 25 no longer exist because on January 1 of this 6609 1 year we have new pools. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Paterson. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: I guess my 5 question to Senator Hannon was how were the 6 original pools enacted? What's the variance 7 between what we've had for the last six months 8 and what existed up until January 1st, 1997? 9 SENATOR HANNON: We had a 10 regulated system and that was a whole different 11 thing and last year we passed the reform act and 12 it kicked in in the beginning of this year. I'm 13 not going to go through the whole thing because 14 it's, frankly, not germane to this. It had been 15 in existence in this state for 20 years. 16 What we're dealing with is the 17 current system and this allows these entities 18 which are diagnostic and treatment centers and 19 which are certified home health agencies, which 20 serve many people in your district and need 21 these payments in order to pay for those 22 individuals who don't have the money and who 23 would otherwise -- there would be no payment 24 from Medicaid for them and in order to provide 25 those vital services to them, we need to 6610 1 continue these payments. 2 I had hoped that this would have 3 been done in a budget but for reasons beyond my 4 control, it's not. So we have to extend this 5 ability which otherwise expires in the next 6 couple of days. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, you 8 bring me to really the point, and I don't want 9 to belabor asking you to define what the actual 10 pools were or -- but it's just that we went 11 through an entire reform of this whole process 12 last year and, as you pointed out yourself, we 13 have been doing this for 20 years. 14 So I guess you wouldn't find it 15 to be too obtuse or in any way not germane for 16 me to ask you if we created this reform and 17 we're now extending it for one year, was the 18 six-month period to see whether or not it worked 19 or if the six-month period was, why are we just 20 extending it for just one year? In other words, 21 we just went through without going into detail a 22 complete reform of the system and just to give 23 an example of why I'm asking this question, 24 suppose we extend this granting authority for 25 one year. We come back this time next year. We 6611 1 haven't passed a budget and exactly what is 2 frustrating you perhaps this evening and me as 3 well -- because, as you pointed out, so many 4 individuals that are in my district and in other 5 districts that have similar problems have this 6 need and we want to do this, but having had it 7 intertwined in the budget process as much as 8 possible, why would we want to extend it one 9 year when we can run right into this situation 10 where the inability of our state to resolve a 11 budget negotiation obfuscates the opportunity to 12 bring these needed services to areas all over 13 the state as we seem to have gotten ourselves 14 into this situation tonight? 15 SENATOR HANNON: Yes! 16 SENATOR PATERSON: Marv Albert 17 has joined us. 18 Senator Hannon, if you would 19 continue to yield. 20 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Can you give 22 me a reason why we would not create a structure 23 in which this process would not last for more 24 than one year? 25 SENATOR HANNON: No, I don't have 6612 1 an answer. 2 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 3 That was a much more detailed 4 answer than I got from the last question. 5 My -- if the Senator would 6 continue to yield. 7 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: I get as much 9 information from when he yields as when I 10 actually ask the question but, Senator, very 11 seriously, we're in a budget negotiating process 12 in which we aren't sure when we think it should 13 end. It would be certainly fine with myself and 14 -- well, it was fine with Senator Gold, but I 15 see he's walking away now but he's coming back 16 -- that there's a need for us not to lose this 17 vital opportunity based on the fact that we're 18 unable to complete this actual process, and what 19 I'm just trying to put forth is what is a - 20 what is a service that's very important and goes 21 to different parts of the state and is certainly 22 needed. 23 My question is, what is the 24 priority of determination that enables us to 25 know which of the -- which of -- in what 6613 1 diagnostic sense and to which agencies the funds 2 from the bad debt and charity pool will be 3 distributed? 4 SENATOR HANNON: The entire pool 5 had, before we changed the finance system 6 around, a number of incentives for the 7 institutions that received the money to add a 8 lot of overhead into the costs of the pool and 9 it was generally acknowledged that there was - 10 it was not being -- the monies were not being 11 directed as wisely as we would have hoped. In 12 the HCRA 1996 Act, Health Care Reform Act - 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Excuse me, Mr. 14 President. Senator Hannon, the 1996 - 15 SENATOR HANNON: Health Care 16 Reform Act, HCRA -- we changed the methodology 17 by which a bad debt is determined. I don't have 18 all that detail at hand but basically we just 19 made sure that bad debt was more closely to what 20 everybody would acknowledge is the inability of 21 the individual treated to pay and so we're -- we 22 were not able to extend that on a long-term 23 basis. 24 How it's actually working, it's 25 too soon to know, but I can tell you on a 6614 1 historic basis that 50 percent -- or over 50 2 percent of this money goes to agencies of the 3 city of New York. So where it's going, that's 4 where it's going. How it will flow in the 5 future, we don't know but it is all designed to 6 go for care for those people who cannot afford 7 to pay for it. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 9 Senator. 10 Mr. President, if the Senator 11 would continue to yield. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Senator Hannon, do you continue to yield? 14 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: He 16 does, sir. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, at 18 the point that we passed the legislation last 19 year, was it believed at the time -- and I know 20 of the involvement that you dedicated to it - 21 that there would be a better assessment of how 22 the program is working at the point that we 23 would be considering granting an extension at 24 this time? 25 SENATOR HANNON: I was hopeful 6615 1 but did I know predicting what would happen 2 when? Absolutely not. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: The -- Mr. 4 President, if the Senator would continue to 5 yield. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Senator Hannon continues to yield. 8 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 9 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I 10 don't know if you can answer this question or 11 not but I'll certainly accept it if you feel 12 that this calls for too much of an opinion, but 13 my question at this point would be, at what 14 point does -- do health care professionals or 15 analysts such as yourself feel that we would get 16 an idea whether or not we've actually corrected 17 some of the discrepancies that we may have had 18 in the system, in the mechanism up to when we 19 tried to pass the reform act? How long will it 20 take before we start to get any indication as to 21 where the money is going and whether or not it's 22 reflecting need or prioritization? 23 SENATOR HANNON: I think it's 24 always a changing scene, just as you try to 25 attempt to address the problems that were before 6616 1 us as of 1996, you get a number of other factors 2 that enter the picture that were the not there 3 then. 4 Entering the picture now, we have 5 the further penetration into insurance coverage 6 of health maintenance organizations which 7 continue to up the share of insurance coverage 8 for all concerned. 9 In addition to that, we have the 10 effect of the welfare enactments by Congress 11 last year which cut off eligibility for certain 12 individuals all without our participation. 13 We know now that pending in the 14 house, in the Senate in Washington there is a 15 potential for cuts in Medicare or Medicaid of 16 $130 billion over the next five years. So - 17 and everything keeps changing. 18 One of the major statistics that 19 came out of the United Hospital Association just 20 recently was a note that in the two-year period 21 last noted that hospital visits in the city of 22 New York for the first six months of the year - 23 and it was comparing 1993 to 1995 -- had 24 decreased by one million patient days over the 25 comparable six-month period. All of those folks 6617 1 didn't get better all of a sudden. Still 2 probably had pretty much the same amount of 3 illness and ailments. Where did they go? They 4 probably went to these very same institutions 5 that we are directing this money to, the 6 diagnostic and treatment centers and if they 7 didn't get to the clinics, then to being taken 8 care of by the home health care agency. 9 So it's a changing dynamic. You 10 put amendments in to try to meet the needs as 11 you best perceive them and you adjust it 12 accordingly when the situation changes. 13 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 14 Senator. 15 Before I comment on the bill, I 16 think that from your answers I now have a very 17 good idea of why you would want to put a 18 one-year extender on this. Apparently the 19 relative information is not clear and in spite 20 of the fact that preliminary indications would 21 seem to be that this is going to be very 22 effective, you wouldn't want to lock the state 23 into any kind of a process for any long period 24 of time absent any evidence to give us any kind 25 of indication as to how well the program is 6618 1 going. Is that correct? 2 SENATOR HANNON: I think that's 3 an appropriate summation, Senator. 4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. 5 Thank you very much for your 6 answers, Senator Hannon. 7 Mr. President, on the bill. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Senator Paterson on the bill. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: It does seem 11 that the visits to hospitals are decreasing and 12 the whole evolution of the hospital systems 13 seems to be changing right before our eyes as we 14 move more to clinics and diagnostic centers as 15 Senator Hannon certainly demonstrated. 16 You would understand that I am 17 representing a district that has lost eight 18 major hospitals in the last 25 years, hospitals 19 like Arthur Logan, Knickerbocker Hospital, 20 Flower Hospital, Fifth Avenue Hospital, Mother 21 Cabrini Hospital, the Joint Center of Diseases, 22 Francis Dellafield Hospital and, of course, the 23 major controversy in 1983-1984 when Siedman 24 Hospital was closed, there was a feeling in our 25 area that these closures were really reducing 6619 1 the amount of service to our particular area and 2 we are not totally satisfied that that has not 3 been the case but certainly recent information 4 certainly demonstrates that there has been a 5 greater movement in just the whole system based 6 on the presence of HMOs and certainly the 7 different types of health care maintenance that 8 actually exists. We're now finding that the 9 types of centers that Senator Hannon is 10 referring to have been very effective and in 11 many ways reduce costs and increase the ability 12 to have care. 13 So for that reason, there's 14 certainly a concern and if Senator Hannon is 15 right -- and I know that he is right -- but I'm 16 just pointing out that at this point we are very 17 pleased to know that so many people are being 18 serviced and in more cost-effective way, that 19 much of it is being funded by the information 20 that Senator Hannon gave us and by the 21 legislation that's going to continue this 22 program for another year and having understood 23 that, I support it and urge all my colleagues to 24 vote for it. 25 Thank you. 6620 1 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Oh, 3 I was going to read the last section. 4 Senator Gold. 5 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I'm 6 not going to stop you from reading the last 7 section. It's just a question of when, I guess. 8 Would Senator Hannon yield to a 9 question? 10 SENATOR HANNON: Yes, Mr. 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: I 13 think Senator Hannon is yielding, sir. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Hannon, I 15 was in the room for most of the question and 16 answers with Senator Paterson, but I did have to 17 step out for a minute and if -- I don't want to 18 impose upon you for maybe 35, 40 seconds, but if 19 you could -- I didn't understand why we're 20 talking in terms of just the one-year extender 21 and in looking at the bill history, I see back 22 in 1990, '93, '96. So I gather that it is like 23 some seven, eight years, but can you just 24 explain to me -- and I'll take 30 seconds of 25 it. I don't want to drag it out -- why we're 6621 1 just doing the one-year? 2 SENATOR HANNON: New health care 3 act, January 1, 1996 redid bad debt and charity 4 care. This group of clinics and agencies may 5 have extra costs and different costs and 6 different ways and impositions and, therefore, 7 it's most appropriate and given the facts out 8 there, it would only be done for a year. 9 SENATOR GOLD: You did it 30 10 seconds. Would the Senator now yield to one 11 other question? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Senator Hannon, do you yield for one more 14 question? 15 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I 16 understand what you've said, but isn't it 17 possible to do a bill that sets up a situation 18 where depending upon certain variables, we -- we 19 can make these adjustments without us doing it 20 legislatively each year? 21 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Do we have such a 23 bill in? 24 SENATOR HANNON: No. 25 SENATOR GOLD: Well, if the 6622 1 Senator would yield to one more question. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Senator, do you yield to one more question for 4 the third time? 5 SENATOR HANNON: One more 6 question. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Senator, is 8 there a reason why perhaps you have not done 9 that and rather than just say yes or no, can you 10 explain to me what the reason might be? 11 SENATOR HANNON: I thought this 12 was the most appropriate bill to put in because 13 it gives -- continues to give the Legislature 14 oversight. Any type of mechanism gets you into 15 a bureaucratic morass and the one year is 16 appropriate in my judgment. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 18 Mr. President, first of all, I 19 know Senator Hannon's -- Senator Hannon pretty 20 well and - 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Senator Gold, are you speaking on the bill? 23 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. May I. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 25 Senator Gold, on the bill. 6623 1 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Before you do, Senator, can we just ask -- this 4 is insightful discussion. Can we have it a 5 little quiet? 6 Thank you. 7 SENATOR GOLD: I know we all get 8 to know pretty well the different personalities, 9 and I know certain members have more tolerance 10 for certain things than other members and with 11 that in mind, let me preface my remarks saying, 12 Senator Hannon, you have been around all day. 13 We have been here about 12 hours except for our 14 dinner break and up until about an hour ago, I 15 think the record will indicate, I don't think I 16 spent more than a total of two or three minutes 17 total on anything in this session and certainly 18 I don't think you as a fair gentleman would 19 criticize me for any actions prior to about an 20 hour ago, but things change and I ask you as 21 somebody I respect to understand that it is not 22 me that makes these changes single-handedly. So 23 with that in mind, I ask your indulgence. 24 Mr. President, I find it 25 difficult in certain areas to constantly be 6624 1 arguing, debating, voting on bills year after 2 year because the Legislature doesn't do 3 something more creative that terminates some of 4 these issues, and I understand that with regard 5 to some issues. Some people have the feeling 6 that if we hang certain groups out there and 7 make them come back every year or two, that 8 that's good politics. It's probably not the 9 situation in this bill and I'm not certainly 10 accusing this particular sponsor, who I happen 11 to believe is an honorable man and I don't say 12 that in anything but in a sincere way, but there 13 are situations when we get bills that -- it's a 14 good bill. 15 I'll vote for it. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Call the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 25 bill is passed finally. 6625 1 Senator Larkin. 2 SENATOR LARKIN: Please call up 3 1475, Senator Kuhl's Senate Bill 5578. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 5 Secretary will please read. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1475, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 5578, an act 8 in relation to the issuance of serial bonds by 9 the village of Penn Yan, Yates County. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 There is a home rule message at the desk. Read 12 the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Call the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 20 bill is passed. 21 Senator Larkin. 22 SENATOR LARKIN: 1476, sir. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 24 Secretary will read 1476. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6626 1 1476 - 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Excuse me one second. 4 Senator Waldon, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very 6 much. 7 I was out of the chamber when the 8 chamber considered 1441. I respectfully request 9 unanimous consent to be recorded in the 10 negative. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: It 12 shall be done, sir. 13 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, sir. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 15 Secretary will read -- I'm sorry. 16 Senator Dollinger. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 18 Mr. President. 19 Could I also have unanimous 20 consent to be recorded in the negative on 21 Calendars Number 899 and 1377, Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Without objection, that shall be done. 24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 6627 1 Secretary will read. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 1476, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 4 5597, an act to amend the Environmental 5 Conservation Law. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Call the roll. 12 (The Secretary called the roll.) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 15 bill is passed. 16 Senator Larkin. 17 SENATOR LARKIN: Continue, 1477. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1477, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 20 5599, an act to amend the Civil Service Law, in 21 relation to proceedings. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Read the last section. 24 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 25 act shall take effect immediately. 6628 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Call the roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll.) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 6 bill is passed. 7 SENATOR LARKIN: 1478. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 1478, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 5605, 10 an act in relation to the apportionment of 11 transportation aid. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 There is a local fiscal impact statement on the 14 bill. Read the last section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Call the roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll.) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 22 bill is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 1479, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 5613, an 25 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law. 6629 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Call the roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll.) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 10 bill is passed. 11 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 12 call up 1466, by Senator Rath. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 14 secretary please read 1476, Senator? 15 SENATOR LARKIN: '66. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 '66. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1466, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 3510, an act 20 to amend the Tax Law, in relation to excluding. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 24 act - 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6630 1 Excuse me? An explanation has been called for. 2 Senator Rath. 3 SENATOR RATH: Mr. President, is 4 that Senator Leichter who's asking for an 5 explanation? 6 Senator Leichter, I would say I'm 7 pleased to be sponsoring this bill with Senator 8 Nanula, Senator Maziarz, Senator Present, 9 Senator Stachowski and Senator Volker. 10 The bill has a great impact on 11 Western New York which is an emerging call 12 center area and what this bill will do will be 13 to take companies who decide to come into 14 Western New York and in this case there has been 15 as many as 3,000 new jobs in the last couple of 16 years. This call center industry is a very new 17 kind of industry and instead of taxing a 18 business twice for the state that they reside 19 in, if they come to New York to locate the call 20 center because we have the space, we have the 21 kind of work force, et cetera, we don't want to 22 tax them a second time and discourage them from 23 coming to New York. So that's what this bill 24 provides for. 25 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if 6631 1 you would yield for a question. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Senator Leichter -- excuse me, Senator. 4 Senator Rath, do you yield? 5 SENATOR RATH: Surely. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 7 Senator yields. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Excuse me, 9 Senator. We're having difficulty locating the 10 bill. Senator - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Senator Leichter, the Senator has yielded 13 already. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator Rath, 15 I understand the point you're making of the 16 importance of this for the northwestern New 17 York, but I take it the bill has a statewide 18 application, is that correct? 19 SENATOR RATH: It does. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: And what is 21 the fiscal implication for the state if we enact 22 this bill? 23 SENATOR RATH: It's a 24 clarification, Senator Leichter, of the Tax 25 Law. There is no fiscal implication except to 6632 1 the businesses that would be discouraged from 2 coming to New York State. I might point out 3 that in Buffalo, a number of the new jobs -- of 4 the 3,000 new jobs are in the city; very, very 5 important to have jobs in the city. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: So the point 7 you're making is that the firms that would be 8 coming into the state that would be taking 9 advantage of this would more than make up the 10 loss of any revenue that we would have? 11 SENATOR RATH: "Western New York 12 emerges to take a prominent role in call center 13 industry." The second press release, "Toronto 14 company plans to bring at least 300 jobs to the 15 area." 16 No, there is no revenue 17 implication, Senator. It has to do with not 18 taxing companies twice. If they think about 19 coming to New York State in order to locate call 20 center industries, the bill will define what the 21 call center industry does and not tax them a 22 second time if they decide to put those jobs in 23 New York State. 24 SENATOR LEICHTER: I understand 25 it now, and I thank you. 6633 1 SENATOR RATH: Thank you. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Read the last section, please. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 5 act shall take effect September 1st, 1997. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Call the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll.) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 11 bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 1467, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 4463-A, 14 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Call the roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll.) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 24 bill is passed. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6634 1 1468, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 4637, an 2 act authorizing the creation of a Greenway 3 Riverside Park. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: We 5 have a home rule message at the desk. Read the 6 last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 Call the roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 14 bill is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 1469, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 4712-A, 17 an act to amend the General Business Law, in 18 relation to improvements. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Call the roll. 25 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6635 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 3 bill is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1470, by member of the Assembly Lafayette, 6 Assembly Print 2224-A, an act to amend the 7 General Business Law. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 Read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Call the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 17 bill is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 1471, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 5339-a, 20 an act to amend the Insurance Law. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 Read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 24 act shall take effect immediately. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6636 1 Call the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 5 bill is passed. 6 Senator Larkin, we finished the 7 controversial calendar. 8 SENATOR LARKIN: Any 9 housekeeping? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: No 11 housekeeping, Senator. 12 SENATOR LARKIN: Let's stand at 13 ease for a few minutes. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: The 15 Senate will stand at ease for a few minutes. 16 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at 17 ease.) 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: There will be an 21 immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in the 22 Majority Conference Room, Rules Committee, 23 Majority Conference Room immediately. The 24 Senate will stand at ease. 25 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at 6637 1 ease from 10:30 p.m. until 11:00 p.m.). 2 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: 4 Senator Bruno. 5 SENATOR BRUNO: Can we ask for an 6 immediate conference of the Majority in Room 7 332. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: There 9 will be an immediate conference of the Majority 10 in Room 332. 11 Senator Paterson. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President, 13 we would like to announce a meeting of the 14 integrity -- I mean the Minority in Room 314. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ: There 16 will be an immediate meeting of the Minority 17 Conference in Room 314. 18 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at 19 ease from 11:01 p.m. until 11:31 p.m.) 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 Senate will come to order. 22 The Chair recognizes Senator 23 Bruno. 24 SENATOR BRUNO: Good evening, Mr. 25 President. I would like to ask for an immediate 6638 1 meeting of the Rules Committee in Room 332. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 3 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules 4 Committee, immediate meeting of the Rules 5 Committee in the Majority Conference Room, Room 6 332. 7 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Bruno. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 11 can we return to the reports of standing 12 committees, and I believe there is a report from 13 the Rules Committee, and I would recommend that 14 we accept that report at this time. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I'll ask 16 the Secretary to read the report of the Rules 17 Committee. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno, 19 from the Committee on Rules, reports the 20 following bills: 21 1937, by Senator DeFrancisco, an 22 act to amend the State Finance Law; 23 2615-A, by Senator Padavan, an 24 act to amend the Administrative Code of the city 25 of New York; 6639 1 3683, by Senator Wright, an act 2 to amend the Economic Development Law; 3 4395-A, by Senator Maltese, an 4 act to amend the Administrative Code of the city 5 of New York; 6 4514-A, by Senator Farley, an act 7 to amend the Banking Law; 8 4933, by Senator Spano, an act to 9 amend the Workers' Compensation Law; 10 4974, by Senator Hannon, an act 11 to enact the Health Care Ambassador Match Act; 12 5016-A, by Senator Volker, an act 13 to amend the Tax Law; 14 5025-A, by Senator Farley, an act 15 to amend the Parks, Recreation and Historic 16 Preservation Law; 17 5071-C, by Senator Marcellino, an 18 act to amend the Labor Law; 19 5414, by Senator Montgomery, an 20 act to amend the Education Law; 21 5604, by the Committee on Rules, 22 an act to amend the Racing, Pari-mutuel Wagering 23 and Breeding Law. 24 All bills directly for third 25 reading. 6640 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 motion is to accept the report of the Rules 3 Committee. All those in favor signify by saying 4 aye. 5 (Response of "Aye".) 6 Opposed, nay. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Could I have 8 an explanation as to why we should accept the 9 Rules Committee report. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Dollinger, just a minute. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's fine, 13 Mr. President. 14 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, an 15 explanation was requested on what we're doing 16 here in accepting the Rules Committee. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I believe 18 that's the question, Senator. 19 SENATOR BRUNO: I believe the 20 rules of the Senate are such that when Rules 21 meet, they debate bills and those bills that are 22 deemed appropriate by the Majority of the 23 members of the Rules Committee recommend that 24 that be put on an agenda and that agenda appears 25 at the front desk and we then, before we can 6641 1 take it up, vote on accepting the Rules 2 Committee report and by that vote, we are in a 3 position to debate each and every bill and then 4 you can say what you please up or down, 5 sideways, inside, out as relates to the issue 6 and after we have had that exhaustive 7 deliberation, the bills will pass. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through 9 you, Mr. President. It's my understanding that 10 the acceptance of the Rules Committee report is 11 to further the business of the Senate, to get 12 the business of the Senate done. It's now 25 13 minutes to 12:00 on the last day of session and 14 there is a Rules Committee report before us. 15 What I understand that signifies, 16 Mr. President, is that there are some important 17 bills that the Rules Committee has determined 18 need to be acted upon by this body tonight. 19 My question to the President of 20 the Senate is, if there are other bills 21 currently on the calendar that also should be 22 acted on tonight and why we haven't done those 23 bills before we go on to a new agenda of putting 24 new bills from the Rules Committee -- there are 25 Rules Committee reports that are before this 6642 1 body right now and we could act on right now 2 before we accept this committee report and that 3 we should act on right now because they need to 4 be done tonight too. 5 My question is why should we 6 accept more work when we haven't finished the 7 work we've already started? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Dollinger, you're directing that question you 10 said to the President of the Senate, which I 11 believe is the title that I'm currently acting 12 in. 13 Are you directing that to me, or 14 are you directing that to some other member? 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm directing 16 it to the Temporary President, Mr. President, to 17 the Majority Leader, whichever title - 18 whichever hat he's wearing at the current time. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: So 20 Majority Leader, you're asking him. Now, you 21 should understand there's a question as to 22 whether or not that question is relevant. The 23 question before us as to whether or not we 24 should accept the report of the Rules Committee, 25 that is a motion properly before this house, as 6643 1 you know, and if you consulted the rules, which 2 I'm sure you have at this point, you know that 3 you're entitled to a half hour debate as the 4 Minority on this issue. 5 So at this point the debate is 6 about four minutes on your side and you have 7 about 26 minutes left, if that's what you wish 8 to do. 9 Now, if you wish to exhaust that 10 time in debate by asking the Majority Leader of 11 this house questions and he wishes to respond, 12 then certainly that is your prerogative. 13 Now, is that your desire? 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That is my 15 desire, Mr. President. Once again you have - 16 even at this late hour at this late day you have 17 both articulated the rule and I think 18 evenhandedly applied it. 19 So I appreciate that, Mr. 20 President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Bruno, would you like to respond? 23 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you, Mr. 24 President. 25 Mr. President, may I suggest that 6644 1 we lay this motion aside? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 motion is laid aside. 4 SENATOR BRUNO: Laid aside. 5 That's a good move, isn't it? And, Mr. 6 President, I would recommend that we return to 7 standing committees, and I believe the Rules 8 Committee has met and they now have a report 9 that is at the desk. I would ask that that 10 report be read and move for its acceptance. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is 12 another report of the Rules Committee at the 13 desk. 14 I'll ask the Secretary to read. 15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno, 16 from the Committee on Rules, reports the 17 following bill: 18 5651, by the Committee on Rules, 19 an act to amend the Insurance Law. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Bruno. 22 SENATOR BRUNO: Move to accept 23 the report, Mr. President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 25 motion is to accept the report of the Rules 6645 1 Committee. All those in favor signify by saying 2 aye. 3 (Response of "Aye".) 4 Opposed, nay. 5 (There was no response.) 6 The Rules report is accepted. 7 Senator Bruno -- the bill is 8 ordered directly to third reading. 9 Senator Bruno. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Read the last 11 section, Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 Secretary will read the title. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 1504, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 16 5651, an act to amend the Insurance Law, in 17 relation to medical malpractice insurance. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 19 Secretary will read the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 23 roll. 24 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6646 1 Bruno. 2 SENATOR BRUNO: Was there a 3 message at the desk? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, 5 there is, Senator Bruno. 6 SENATOR BRUNO: I move we accept 7 the message. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 motion is to accept the message of necessity on 10 Calendar Number 1504. All those in favor 11 signify by saying aye. 12 (Response of "Aye".) 13 Opposed, nay. 14 (There was no response.) 15 The message is accepted. The 16 bill is before the house. 17 The Secretary will read the last 18 section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the 22 roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll.) 24 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill 6647 1 is passed. 2 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 3 there being no further business to come before 4 the Senate, I would move that we stand adjourned 5 until Tuesday, at 11:00 a.m. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 7 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until 8 Tuesday, at 11:00 a.m., intervening days to be 9 legislative days. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 11 intervening days to be legislative days. 12 (Whereupon, at 11:41 p.m., the 13 Senate adjourned.) 14 15 16 17 18