Tuesday, January 27, 1998

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 January 27, 1998 11 12:05 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President 19 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will 3 come to order. 4 Would you please rise and join 5 with me in the Pledge of Allegiance. 6 (The assemblage repeated the 7 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 8 The invocation today will be 9 given by the Reverend Carlton W. Veazey, who 10 is Pastor of the Fellowship Baptist Church in 11 Washington, D.C. 12 Reverend Veazey. 13 REVEREND CARLTON W. VEAZEY: 14 Let us pray. 15 God of all our years, God of 16 all solemn days, Thou Who hast brought us thus 17 far on the way, Thou Who, by Thy might, hast 18 led us to the light. Keep us forever in the 19 path, we pray. God of grace and God of glory 20 in Whom we live and move and have our very 21 being, we come to Thee today with thankful 22 hearts for this great country. We thank You, 23 O God, for our leadership and as we come 24 today, O God, to this Senate, we ask Thy 25 blessings upon this deliberative body. Remind 1 us, O God, to whom much is given much is 2 required. Help us to be mindful of the needs 3 of others, for we know that in Thy day we 4 shall hear the words, When I was hungry, you 5 gave me nothing to eat. When I was thirsty, 6 you gave me nothing to drink. When I was 7 naked, you clothed me not. When I was sick 8 and in prison you came not unto me. We will 9 say to him, Lord, when did we see Thee hungry 10 or thirsty or naked or a stranger or sick and 11 in prison, and he will say unto us, Inasmuch 12 as ye did it to the least of these, my 13 brethren ye did it unto me. 14 Help us to be mindful, O God, 15 of those who are less fortunate and help us to 16 champion justice. Remember the word said by 17 the prophet Micah, to do justly, to love 18 mercy, to walk humbly with Thy God. Now, God, 19 we thank Thee for the great times in this 20 country, and as we commemorate the Roe v. Wade 21 week, O god, remember those who have suffered 22 and sacrificed that others might be treated 23 justly, and that we might have rights. We ask 24 you, O God, to bless these who deliberate 25 today. May they understand that their power 1 is given to them by Thee. Help them to do 2 what is right in Thy sight, so that when we 3 come to the end of our lives, we might look 4 back at the life well spent, that we might 5 hear Your voice saying, Well done, good and 6 faithful servant. 7 This is our prayer, and we ask 8 it in His name. Amen. 9 THE PRESIDENT: Amen. 10 The reading of the Journal, 11 please. 12 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 13 Monday, January 26th. The Senate met pursuant 14 to adjournment. The Journal of Saturday, 15 January 24th, was read and approved. On 16 motion, Senate adjourned. 17 THE PRESIDENT: Without 18 objection, the Journal stands approved as 19 read. 20 Presentation of petitions. 21 Messages from the Assembly. 22 Messages from the Governor. 23 Reports of standing 24 committees. 25 The Secretary will read. 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack, 2 from the Committee on Judiciary, offers up the 3 following nomination: 4 As a judge of the Monroe County 5 Court, Philip B. Dattilo, Jr., of Honeoye 6 Falls. 7 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Lack. 8 SENATOR LACK: Thank you, Madam 9 President. 10 I rise to move the nomination 11 of Philip B. Dattilo as a judge of the Monroe 12 County Court. Justice Dattilo was nominated 13 by the Governor. He was examined by the staff 14 of the Committee, appeared before the 15 Committee this morning, and received unanimous 16 praise at the committee meeting and his name 17 was forwarded to the floor of the Senate this 18 afternoon for confirmation, and it is with 19 great pleasure that I yield to Senator Alesi 20 for purposes of a second. 21 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Alesi. 22 SENATOR ALESI: Madam 23 President. Thank you, Senator. 24 My colleagues, today is a day 25 of great pride for me to welcome my good 1 personal friend, Phil Dattilo and his wife 2 Linda, as well as those accompanying him 3 today, George and Rose Shaw from back home. 4 Judge Dattilo is not only a 5 distinguished attorney, but a distinguished 6 justice as well. He has earned a reputation 7 as a dedicated family man having for many 8 years served in the community as well. Also 9 recognized as someone who is committed to the 10 community that he will be serving at the 11 County Court level. 12 Justice Dattilo has made a name 13 for himself as someone who is committed to so 14 many issues that are important to him -- DWI. 15 He served on the Boy Scouts. He served in 16 Vince Lombardi Football, and that speaks to 17 the involvement that this man has in his 18 community with his fellow people. 19 As I said, he is a 20 distinguished attorney and well recognized as 21 someone who will interpret the law with 22 wisdom, who will apply it with fairness, and I 23 am personally pleased as I said to welcome him 24 and to applaud the Governor's nomination for 25 this judge who is eminently well qualified to 1 serve the people of Monroe County. 2 Judge, welcome. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 4 Thank you, Senator Alesi. 5 Senator Maziarz, please. 6 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you 7 very much, Mr. President. 8 I want to join my colleagues, 9 Senator Lack, Senator Alesi, in congratulating 10 the Governor in seconding the nomination of 11 Phil Dattilo. I think the Governor has 12 certainly chosen someone with a great deal of 13 experience in the town justice level, now to 14 move up to County Court, and I just want to 15 commend the judge and wish him well and 16 although I didn't personally know the judge 17 before the last couple of months, as I often 18 do in Monroe County when I want to know about 19 someone and someone's background and whether 20 or not they're qualified for a position, I go 21 to George and Rosemary Shaw, and they gave you 22 the highest recommendation, Judge, and that's 23 good enough for me. 24 Thank you, Mr. President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 1 Thank you, Senator Maziarz. The question is on 2 the confirmation of Philip B. Dattilo, Jr. 3 I'm sorry, excuse me. 4 Senator Dollinger. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 6 Mr. President. 7 I rise just to second my 8 colleagues from Monroe County. Phil Dattilo, 9 in addition to all of his accomplishments as 10 cited by Senator Alesi and Senator Maziarz, is 11 a good man and a good guy and he'll be a good 12 County Court judge. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 14 Thank you, Senator Dollinger. 15 The question is on the 16 confirmation of Philip B. Dattilo, Jr., as 17 judge of the Monroe County Court. All in favor 18 signify by saying aye. 19 (Response of "Aye.") 20 Opposed nay. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 22 President, may I just be recognized and ask 23 for unanimous consent to abstain from this 24 voting. I have what I believe something that 25 might create an appearance of a conflict in 1 this case, and I would ask for permission to 2 abstain. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 4 Without objection, Senator Dollinger will 5 abstain from voting. 6 Now the question is on the 7 confirmation. We've had the vote, and I don't 8 believe I heard any nays. So Philip B. 9 Dattilo, Jr., congratulations. You are hereby 10 confirmed as a judge of the Monroe County 11 Court. The judge is in the chamber with his 12 wife Linda. Congratulations, welcome and have 13 a great tenure. 14 Thank you. 15 (Applause) 16 The Secretary will read. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack, 18 from the Committee on Judiciary, reports: 19 Senate Print 311, by Senator 20 Skelos, an act to amend the General 21 Obligations Law; 22 1523-B, by Senator Trunzo, an 23 act to amend the Eminent Domain Procedure Law; 24 1588, by Senator Holland, an 25 act to amend the General Obligations Law. 1 Senator Alesi, from the 2 Committee on Consumer Protection, reports: 3 Senate Print 6020, by Senator 4 Stafford, an act to amend the General Business 5 Law. 6 Senator Padavan, from the 7 Committee on Cities, reports: 8 Senate Print 355-A, by Senator 9 Velella, an act to amend the General City Law 10 and the Penal Law; 11 4572, by Senator Cook, an act 12 to amend the General Municipal Law; 13 5559, by Senator Goodman, an 14 act to amend the charter of the city of New 15 York. 16 Senator Hannon, from the 17 Committee on Health, reports: 18 Senate Print Number 1496, by 19 Senator Hannon, an act to amend the Public 20 Health Law; 21 1499, by Senator Hannon, an act 22 to amend the Public Health Law; 23 1591, by Senator Holland, an 24 act to amend the Public Health Law and the 25 Penal Law; 1 1680, by Senator Farley, an act 2 to amend the Public Health Law; 3 2035, by Senator Leibell, an 4 act to amend the Public Health Law; 5 2705-A, by Senator Kuhl, an act 6 to amend the Public Health Law; 7 4964, by Senator Hannon, an act 8 to amend the Public Health Law; 9 4973, by Senator Hannon, an act 10 to enact the Health Care Fraud Prosecution 11 Act; 12 4974, by Senator Hannon, an act 13 to enact the Health Care Capacity Match Act of 14 1997. 15 Senator Spano, from the 16 Committee on Labor, reports: 17 Senate Print 3483-A, by Senator 18 Spano, an act to amend the Labor Law; 19 4149, by Senator Spano, an act 20 to amend the Labor Law. 21 All bills directly for third 22 reading. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 24 Without objection, all bills directly to third 25 reading. 1 Reports of select committees. 2 Communications and reports of 3 state officers. 4 Motions and resolutions. 5 Senator Skelos. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 7 I move that we adopt the Resolution Calendar 8 in its entirety. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: All 10 in favor of adopting the Resolution Calendar 11 signify by saying aye. 12 (Response of "Aye.") 13 Opposed nay. 14 (There was no response. ) 15 The Resolution Calendar is 16 adopted. 17 Senator Skelos. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 19 at this time if we could take up Resolution 20 2312, by Senator LaValle, which was previously 21 adopted at the desk. May we please have it 22 read in its entirety. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 24 Secretary will read. 25 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 1 LaValle, Legislative Resolution honoring 2 Jeremy Lack upon the occasion of his receiving 3 the prestigious Marshall Scholarship for 4 1997-1998. 5 WHEREAS, it is the sense of 6 this legislative body that those individuals 7 and organizations who give positive definition 8 to the profile and disposition of the 9 communities in the state of New York do so 10 profoundly strrengthen our shared commitment 11 to the exercise of freedom. 12 Attendant to such concern and 13 fully in accord with its long-standing 14 tradition, it is the intent of this 15 legislative body to honor Jeremy Lack of East 16 Northport, New York, for being chosen as one 17 of 40 Americans to receive the prestigious 18 Marshall Scholarship for 1998. 19 The Marshall Scholarships were 20 instituted by the British Parliament in 1953 21 as a practical and enduring gesture of thanks 22 on behalf of the British people for assistance 23 received from the United States in the after 24 math of World War II. 25 The scholarships are named 1 after General George C. Marshall, President 2 Truman's architect of peace, whose name became 3 associated with the European recovery 4 program. 5 In appointing scholars, the 6 program seeks candidates who demonstrate 7 maturity, self-reliance, self-discipline, 8 intellectual distinction, the potential for 9 leadership, good communication skills and 10 outward looking disposition, an interest in 11 society in general and the potential to 12 promote British-American understanding. 13 Jeremy Lack, one of three 14 students from Cornell University to be chosen 15 this year for the Marshall Scholarship is on 16 the Dean's List in the School of Industrial 17 and Labor Relations at Cornell University. He 18 was a 1997 finalist for the Rhodes Scholar 19 ship. 20 Jeremy Lack is the first 21 Marshall Scholar in the 51-year history of the 22 School of Industrial and Labor Relations. 23 As an undergraduate, Jeremy 24 Lack has combined the studies of industrial 25 and labor relations with biology, with his 1 research pursuits at Cornell focused on 2 economics and biology, and has taken on 3 research projects in the Department of 4 Pharmacology at the College of Veterinary 5 Medicine and at the Cornell Center for 6 Advanced Technology in Biotechnology. 7 Jeremy Lack will enroll in 8 Oxford University in the fall and pursue a 9 doctoral degree in biochemistry. 10 Jeremy Lack has been active in 11 a number of activities on and off campus, 12 including as a member of the Faculty Committee 13 on Academic Programs and Policies and the 14 Cornell Judicial Hearing Board. He also was a 15 group leader for "Into the Streets", a program 16 of the Cornell Public Service Center. 17 An accomplished athlete, Jeremy 18 Lack is captain of the Cornell fencing team 19 and the foil squad. 20 NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED 21 that this legislative body pause in its 22 deliberations to pay tribute to Jeremy Lack 23 for bringing honor upon himself, his family 24 his college, his state and his nation by 25 virtue of winning the prestigious Marshall 1 Scholarship; and 2 BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that a 3 copy of this resolution, suitably engrossed, 4 be transmitted to Jeremy Lack. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: The 6 Chair recognizes Senator LaValle. 7 SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. 8 President, I rise to just say a few comments 9 about the resolution that I hope we will pass 10 and that the members of this body will join me 11 by co-sponsoring the resolution. 12 I've always believed that it is 13 important that we as an institution, Senate 14 institution, recognize each other as 15 colleagues, our families, members of our 16 staff, because it is indeed a family. I've had 17 the opportunity of knowing Jeremy Lack and 18 many of you who have been in this Senate 19 chamber know Jeremy, who came into this 20 chamber as somewhat of a little guy, sat in 21 his father's chair, and the chair literally 22 embraced him. As years went on, that chair 23 did not embrace him any longer. He now 24 physically towers over his father and is, as 25 you know, a mature individual. 1 The resolution talks about the 2 Marshall Scholarship as being a very, very 3 prestigious scholarship. The criteria for 4 selection is not only intellectual distinction 5 but the potential for leadership and good 6 communication skills, and it goes on. 7 The one thing that it does not 8 talk about beyond all of the achievements and 9 the requisite skills that you need is the kind 10 of person that Jeremy Lack really is. He is 11 just a super individual and a very nice 12 person, and we don't often place enough on 13 those kinds of qualities in an individual, 14 being a nice person and one that can get along 15 with individuals. 16 Jeremy, we hope and we wish him 17 by passage of this resolution, much good luck 18 in his journey through achieving his Ph.D., 19 and as you've heard he is multi-talented in 20 handling -- being able to do biology, 21 scientific work, and yet be involved in the 22 labor side and being a graduate of the ILR 23 School at Cornell. 24 To be the first one in 51 years 25 says an awful lot about the young man who we 1 are recognizing and honoring by passage of 2 this resolution. I'm sure that Dr. Therese 3 Lack and our colleague, Senator Jim Lack, are 4 indeed very proud of their son, their 5 children, and I ask that we move the 6 resolution, Mr. President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 8 Thank you, Senator LaValle. Please be advised 9 that the resolution was previously adopted on 10 January 15th, and Jeremy Lack is not in the 11 chamber with us, but I know his very proud and 12 beaming father is. Congratulations, Jim. 13 (Applause) 14 Senator Skelos. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 16 before we start, I do want to congratulate 17 Senator Lack and just say that obviously 18 Jeremy takes after Therese, but both of you 19 are to be congratulated, as Ken said. We have 20 all had the pleasure of seeing Jeremy grow 21 up. I know many of you have seen my own son 22 Adam growing up. Hopefully he turns out half 23 as good, but both of you have done a 24 tremendous job and, on behalf of Senator Bruno 25 and all of us, Jimmy, congratulations. 1 If we could take up the 2 non-controversial calendar at this time. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 4 Secretary will read. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 27, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5789, an 7 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 54, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 45, an act 11 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in 12 relation to requiring school bus and other 13 motor vehicle drivers. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Read 15 the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 17 This act shall take effect on the first day of 18 September. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Call 20 the roll. 21 (The Secretary called the 22 roll. ) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: The 25 bill is passed. 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 55, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 75-A, an act 3 to amend the Public Authorities Law and the 4 Railroad Law. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Read 6 the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. 8 This act shall take effect on the first day of 9 November. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Call 11 the roll. 12 (The Secretary called the 13 roll. ) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: The 16 bill is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 56, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 308, an 19 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Call 21 the roll. I'm sorry. Read the last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 23 This act shall take effect on the first day of 24 November. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Call 1 the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the 3 roll. ) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: The 6 bill is passed. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 58, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 699, an 9 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law and 10 the Criminal Procedure Law. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Read 12 the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. 14 This act shall take effect on the first day of 15 November. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Call 17 the roll. 18 (The Secretary called the 19 roll. ) 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: The 22 bill is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 59, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 1659-A. 25 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay aside for 1 the day. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Lay 3 the bill aside, please, for the day. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 60, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 2969, 6 an act to amend the Navigation Law. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Read 8 the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Call 12 the roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll. 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: The 16 bill is passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 61, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 3812, an 19 act to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control 20 Law and the Mental Hygiene Law. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This 24 bill shall take effect on the first day of 25 January. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Call 2 the roll. 3 (The Secretary called the 4 roll.) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: The 7 bill is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 89, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 1134, 10 an act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Read 12 the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. 14 This act shall take effect on the 30th day. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Call 16 the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the 18 roll.) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: The 21 bill is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 109, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 3840, an 24 act to amend Chapter 698 of the Laws of 1991. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Read 1 the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. 3 This act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Call 5 the roll. 6 (The Secretary called the 7 roll.) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: The 10 bill is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 110, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 4487, an 13 act to amend the Public Authorities Law. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Read 15 the last section. 16 I'm sorry. Lay aside the 17 bill. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 132, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 6025, 20 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 24 This act shall take effect immediately. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Call 1 the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the 3 roll.) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: The 6 bill is passed. 7 Senator Calendar, that -- or 8 Senator Skelos, that completes the reading of 9 the consent calendar. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 11 if we could take up the controversial 12 calendar. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 14 Secretary will read. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 27, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5789, an 17 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law. 18 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 19 this is a bill that passed the Senate last 20 year rather late, and I regret to say in 21 August. It was a Governor's program, and is a 22 Governor's program bill that was a revised 23 version of a bill that we had passed earlier 24 in 1997, which was a broader bill on the issue 25 of police stops and on suppression motions. 1 The bill, by the way, just for everybody's 2 information, passed this house by a vote of 48 3 to 9. 4 Primarily, and it's really this 5 bill comes down to two prime issues and rather 6 than go through as we did, Senator Waldon and 7 I went through extensive preliminaries last 8 year on this bill, but I think rather than do 9 that, let me just say that what this bill 10 provides is, and it relates to a series of 11 court decisions that have gone several ways on 12 the issue of police stops, and the changes in 13 the law that have come through court decisions 14 that, frankly, have appeared to have burdened 15 New York with a test that is beyond any test 16 in the United States of America on police 17 stops under either the federal or our state 18 Constitution. 19 At any rate, what it says is it 20 provides that a police officer is authorized 21 to stop someone in a public place, not in a 22 car by the way -- that issue came up last year 23 -- if he has an objective credible reason to 24 approach that person in a public place and ask 25 questions and take such action as is 1 permissible under the law. 2 The reason for that provision 3 relates to constitutional guarantees under the 4 issue, since we are defining stops as to what 5 actions a police officer can take and, as I 6 pointed out, it would relate obviously to 7 reasonability. 8 The other provision in this 9 bill relates to the question of a person's 10 presence at a trial where there have been a 11 number of cases where a person either chose 12 not to be present at a trial or chose not to 13 be present, for instance, during the picking 14 of a jury which, in several cases, has caused 15 cases to be thrown out, never objected during 16 the trial and later on, after a conviction, 17 the person on appeal in one case after he had 18 gone through two or three appeals, then 19 suddenly came up with an appeal that said, 20 Well, I wasn't really present and, therefore, 21 under the Constitution, I wasn't given the 22 right to a -- to a fair trial and one of our 23 supreme judges agreed with that and threw the 24 case out on the basis of the fact that even 25 though his own attorney never disagreed, he 1 never disagreed, there was no evidence in fact 2 that the fact that he wasn't there would have 3 anything to do with the trial itself, the 4 conviction was reversed. 5 So what we're really talking 6 about here is two basic provisions. The first 7 one relates to changing the law which now 8 relates to criminal conduct and that the 9 police officer is supposed to not stop someone 10 unless there is some suspicion in effect with 11 respect to criminal conduct. What our courts 12 have done is twisted that around so that you 13 almost have to have a crime committed, 14 otherwise in a number of cases you cannot get, 15 for instance, things such as drugs and guns, 16 and so forth, introduced into evidence. It's 17 way beyond anything that we have ever -- we 18 have ever thought in the state or federal 19 Constitution. 20 I think that what we're trying 21 to do here is develop a rational standard and 22 the language here, I think, allows us to do 23 that. That doesn't mean that in every case 24 the police officer is going to be found to be 25 right, but what we are trying to do here is 1 develop an evidentiary standard that makes 2 some sense, given the present state of the 3 state and federal constitutional guarantees. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 5 Senator Gold. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr. 7 President. 8 Mr. President, if the Senator 9 would yield to a question, I'd be very 10 grateful. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 12 Senator Volker, do you yield? 13 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly. 14 Certainly. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I'm 16 glad that you clarified before you even start 17 that this has nothing to do with automobiles 18 because that is a different situation. We 19 don't have to talk about that. 20 I think again just by way of 21 clarification, the bill does limit this to a 22 geographical area, and it deals with him being 23 employed; so again to clarify, Senator Volker, 24 we are not talking about an off-duty cop in a 25 different jurisdiction, am I correct? 1 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. 2 SENATOR GOLD: All right. We're 3 talking about a police officer theoretically 4 on duty within his precinct or general area. 5 Having said that, I would also 6 like to point out, Senator Volker, that as to 7 the second part of this bill, on page 2, you 8 said somebody put forward an argument and a 9 judge agreed, and we're going to change that. 10 As a matter of philosophy, Senator, I agree 11 with what you're doing philosophically. I 12 don't think judges ought to make law, and I 13 think if a judge interprets the law to be a 14 certain thing and we want to disagree, then we 15 do our job, the judges do their job, so that 16 part I don't want to discuss at this time. 17 But I want to ask you some 18 questions on the first part of the bill and 19 that deals with what a police officer can and 20 cannot do, and it says: "In addition, when 21 engaged***", the officer being engaged, "*** 22 in criminal law enforcement," so I assume, 23 Senator, that, to begin with, when a police 24 officer leaves the stationhouse, the precinct, 25 wherever it is he starts his employment in the 1 course of the day, isn't it fair to say that 2 from that time until he comes off duty, he 3 would be, quotes, "engaged in criminal law 4 enforcement"? 5 SENATOR VOLKER: Yeah, I would 6 think that that's probably true. 7 SENATOR GOLD: All right. So 8 that the language that follows deals with 9 anything a police officer does, I assume, once 10 he has that uniform on or once he's in plain 11 clothes or whatever, once he's on duty, so 12 we're talking about all of the time. That 13 language, I assume, does not limit his conduct 14 into any specific situation. 15 Then it says, "A police officer 16 may approach***," and it says, "*** when he 17 has an objective credible reason," and then it 18 goes into, and it says very clearly, "*** not 19 necessarily indicative of criminality." 20 Now, Senator, can you give me 21 an idea what you're talking about of a 22 situation where he would have an objective 23 criminal -- I'm sorry, an objective credible 24 reason to approach someone which was not a 25 reason involved with criminality. Give me a 1 few examples of that. 2 SENATOR VOLKER: There have 3 been a number put forth. One relates to a 4 person who may appear to be ill. Another one 5 relates to, in all honesty, somebody who 6 pretty clearly, for one reason or another, is 7 doing something that appears to be out of 8 character with -- with the situation, for 9 instance someone walking out in the middle of 10 the street in front of a car. There's a whole 11 series of things that have been suggested. 12 What we're talking about is, 13 and that's the reason for the "objective 14 credible" standard, and the person, by the way 15 walking out in front of a car deliberately, by 16 the way, not necessarily committing a criminal 17 act but clearly they're doing something which 18 would indicate that it would be in the purview 19 of a police officer to at least question them 20 as to what they're up to. That's just an 21 example, I think, is one of the examples that 22 I would have. 23 I used the other example, by 24 the way, of the -- the hold-up in a nearby 25 neighborhood, something similar to that 1 happened to me when I was -- and I don't want 2 to get into my law enforcement days; I get 3 away from that, but you stop someone who is 4 coming up the street from where you know a 5 hold-up has occurred and, by the way, this has 6 happened, but you don't know if that person 7 had anything to do with it, but you just ask 8 them a couple of questions as to where they 9 came from, if there was any reason to believe 10 that they may have been in that -- in that 11 area, whether they saw anything, in other 12 words whether they did see anybody running or 13 whatever. They didn't commit any crime or at 14 least you don't know they committed a crime 15 but they may have been a witness, and it turns 16 out, by the way, that that person was one of 17 the people who committed the crime and you 18 find out, under some of the cases we've had 19 you couldn't prosecute that person because you 20 didn't have an indication of criminality 21 connected directly with that person, so 22 that's, I think, to me is an example of 23 objective credible evidence. 24 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Mr. 1 Gold -- Senator Gold. 2 SENATOR GOLD: Would the 3 distinguished gentleman yield to another 4 question? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 6 Senator Volker, would you yield? 7 SENATOR VOLKER: I yield to the 8 distinguished Senator. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Volker, 10 you mentioned as your first example someone 11 who appeared to be ill, and let's say for the 12 sake of argument that a police officer thought 13 somebody was ill, and the person was ill or 14 not or whatever, and the officer's act of 15 seeing a citizen who he or she thought was ill 16 is a very nice gesture. It's a kind gesture. 17 It's something that -- it's a compassionate 18 gesture. But supposing that person isn't 19 feeling well for the moment and just doesn't 20 want to have anything to do with the police 21 officer and doesn't want to answer any 22 questions or be involved and just wants to 23 walk away. 24 As you're explaining it under 25 this statute, that police officer, can in some 1 way do something more than just feel bad, if I 2 could put it that way, but their kindness is 3 not being appreciated by the individual, am I 4 correct? 5 SENATOR VOLKER: I think you're 6 incorrect. I think if there is nothing and 7 there is no other -- I don't think other than 8 asking that person some questions, and one of 9 the interesting things that was asked me last 10 year by Senator Waldon, What if the person 11 says, I'm not feeling well, I don't need any 12 help and I don't want to answer any 13 questions. The question was what does the 14 police officer do? And the answer is nothing 15 because from there on in, unless there is 16 something else besides that, he probably has 17 no jurisdiction to do anything else. 18 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, 19 if Senator Volker would yield to another 20 question. 21 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Yes. 23 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, but 24 you're going past my example. The police 25 officer walks over to someone who appears to 1 be ill, and he says, Are you ill, are you 2 this, are you that, and the person looks at 3 the cop, and just starts to walk away, doesn't 4 want to tell the cop, I'm O.K., or I'm not 5 well or Don't worry or No, thank you, just 6 wants to walk away. Under your bill isn't it 7 a fact that the police officer would have the 8 right to do something more? 9 SENATOR VOLKER: I think the 10 only thing he might have the right to do more 11 is just ask a couple questions, and I think 12 probably, let's assume that your example is 13 correct, there's nothing more he could do. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, 15 if you'll yield to another question. 16 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 17 SENATOR GOLD: Now, you have 18 somebody who is running down the street away 19 from what you say was a criminal scene. 20 SENATOR VOLKER: M-m h-m-m. 21 SENATOR GOLD: And the police 22 officer says, Stop, I want to ask you some 23 questions. 24 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes. 25 SENATOR GOLD: And the person 1 doesn't want to. 2 SENATOR VOLKER: Right. Well, I 3 think, you know, you've added a different - 4 you've added something different to the 5 equation. Now, you have something which 6 clearly could indicate not only "objective 7 credible" indication, but also an indication 8 that there might be something other than just 9 as -- and you talked about medical situations, 10 and I'm -- now, you're talking about the 11 possibility and, in fact, you're adding in the 12 potential for a criminal act, which you didn't 13 add in, in the first place. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 15 SENATOR VOLKER: Which, of 16 course, is still there. 17 SENATOR GOLD: If the Senator 18 would yield to a question. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 20 Senator Volker, do you yield? 21 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly. 22 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I 23 didn't add anything, but I wanted you by your 24 examples to show that the bill is going too 25 far. I said to you in my first question, 1 Senator, will you tell me what's an objective 2 credible reason, not necessarily indicative of 3 criminality? You gave me two instances. One 4 was the person who appeared to be ill and one 5 where someone was running from something, so 6 I'm only giving you back your instances. If 7 you have a situation where they're involved 8 with criminality and if they have reason to 9 believe, et cetera, et cetera, you're dealing 10 with situations which are far different than 11 the language in your bill. 12 The bill says an "objective 13 credible reason not necessarily indicative" 14 and all I'm saying to you is, a person who may 15 be ill might be a situation which is not 16 indicative of criminal activity. I'm saying 17 what other ones do you have? If you're 18 starting to talk about people running from a 19 crime, as you indicate, Senator, now there is 20 something which is involved with criminal - 21 criminality or may be involved in criminality, 22 and that I'll deal with in another way, but 23 I'm just saying what are the objective 24 credible reasons where it's not involved with 25 credibility where this statute would now have 1 effect, and one of them you gave me was 2 illness, and we discussed that. What other 3 one would there be, Senator? 4 SENATOR VOLKER: The one I just 5 gave you, the person running in front of a 6 car. You see, Senator, you are tying in the 7 fact that someone is running that may have 8 been involved in a criminal act as some sort 9 of indication of criminality. The courts have 10 said in some cases that's not necessarily an 11 indication of criminality although it might 12 well be objective credible evidence of a 13 reason to stop and talk to somebody. 14 I think, Senator, I'm not the 15 one moving ahead. I think maybe, Senator, in 16 a sense you're moving ahead. I think what 17 this is trying to do is bring some sort of 18 rationality. We're not really changing that 19 much by the way, Senator Gold. What we're 20 really doing, is trying to do -- to develop a 21 system that we've always had, and a system 22 that basically says that you do what's 23 rational under the circumstances. 24 The trouble, I think, is that 25 what courts have tried to do is take street 1 situations and after they're done and after 2 all the things have happened that's involved 3 and say, Well, you know what? We don't know if 4 that guy's idea was quite what we think it 5 should have been. What you're really doing 6 here is saying, We want a police officer to do 7 what's logical and what's right under the 8 circumstances if he's -- by the way, if he 9 can't show some sort of credible objective 10 standard and if he's made an arrest and even 11 if he has, for instance, confiscated drugs, 12 which in many cases is the case, or found a 13 gun, and all that sort of thing, it may well 14 be that the arrest may fall and it may well be 15 that the search may fall, but at least we're 16 trying to set up a standard here which makes 17 more reasonable sense than the one that the 18 courts are now following. 19 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Yes, 21 Senator Gold. 22 SENATOR GOLD: If the Senator 23 would yield to a question. 24 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly. 25 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I'll 1 take your second example. Somebody walks in 2 front of a car now. I assume if they walk in 3 front of a car, they get hit. The police 4 officer is in the middle of an accident 5 investigation, but I assume if they walk in 6 front of a car, somebody blows the horn and 7 they jump back out of the way. 8 You're saying that that might 9 be a reason then why a police officer might 10 stop somebody and start asking them 11 questions? Is that - 12 SENATOR VOLKER: I'm saying if 13 somebody deliberately jumps in front of a car 14 for whatever reason, I certainly think -- I 15 guess I'm using that because it's something 16 which is totally out of the ordinary and might 17 indicate that that person has some -- has some 18 problem that a police officer should inquire 19 about. 20 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 21 SENATOR VOLKER: And which 22 would constitute an objective credible 23 evidence not necessarily of wrongdoing but of 24 a reason to question that person. 25 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 2 Senator Gold. 3 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, on the 4 bill. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: On 6 the bill. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, 8 Senator Volker is very kind and I know that if 9 it was a question of debate for debate's sake, 10 we could carry this on and pick it apart, but 11 I see the vote from last year, and I think 12 there was only about nine of us who were in 13 the negative anyway, and I just want to thank 14 Senator Volker for helping me make my points. 15 There is law in this state, and 16 I believe that the law in this state does 17 permit a police officer to do his or her job, 18 and certainly I am one of those people who, 19 over the years, has fought to see to it that 20 police officers are armed properly and that 21 police officers have every opportunity to do 22 their job. I happen to believe that the 23 police officer in the street is not the enemy 24 and thank God they're there and help protect 25 us. 1 But the fact of the matter is 2 that when all of us went to school, if we were 3 getting 99 percent in a subject, we were 4 almost at the genius level and you take a look 5 at how many police officers you have in the 6 state and in the city of New York, for 7 example, and take just one percent, one 8 percent of the police force of the city of New 9 York is a number of hundreds of policemen 10 running around who if, God forbid, they're the 11 bad apple make the whole force look bad and 12 can cause a lot of damage in the streets, and 13 what Senator Waldon was trying to emphasize 14 last year, as I remember it, was the -- the 15 actuality of life in some of the areas of this 16 state where people are not driving Mercedes, 17 and people are not earning six figure incomes 18 and where, unfortunately, some police officers 19 use any excuse to make life kind of in 20 tolerant for some of our citizens. 21 I am not one of those who 22 believe that every time a charge is made 23 against a police officer of brutality that the 24 charge is accurate but, unfortunately, there 25 are enough cases that do reach public opinion 1 -- the public view where we ought to be a 2 little bit concerned about what we do. 3 This statute, in my opinion, 4 would allow police officers to stop 5 individuals for what is almost no reason, 6 because while they -- and by the way, as the 7 head of the Dale Volker fan club, there's no 8 doubt in my mind that if this was the law, 9 Senator Volker as a policeman would not - 10 would not be doing the wrong thing or abusing 11 it, but, unfortunately, every police officer 12 that we have in this state and in this country 13 doesn't pass the Dale Volker test, so we have 14 to be a little bit more careful. 15 But this basically says that 16 any police officer engaged in criminal law 17 enforcement, which means only that he's on 18 duty or she's on duty and in their area, which 19 doesn't help too much either, it says 20 objective credible reason, and the problem 21 with that is when you talk about things which 22 give you objective credible reasons and have 23 nothing to do with criminality you are now 24 taking one major, major step, because the 25 purpose of having a police force and 1 protecting us is to protect us against 2 criminal acts and for keeping the peace in our 3 society, and helping us -- as a matter of fact 4 there are areas where police used to do 5 traffic details, where they're trying to get 6 them out of the traffic details and bring 7 other people in to do traffic, because we want 8 the police out there protecting us on a 9 day-to-day basis against criminal activity and 10 maintaining the peace of society. 11 But this language about "not 12 necessarily involved in criminal activity" is 13 just a huge expansion of the kinds of 14 situations where police officers might 15 determine that they are going to stop people 16 and, as Senator Waldon pointed out last year, 17 his concern was for young people, for young 18 minority people, and I can understand that. 19 Senator Waldon has made arguments from time to 20 time and he has urged upon us that the kinds 21 of situations we are used to in some of our 22 communities which may not be heavily inhabited 23 by minority groups, might be different than 24 people in the -- in the areas which are 25 heavily minority and the experiences they've 1 had and the laws we pass apply to both 2 communities. 3 I remember years ago, and I 4 mean really years ago, if your kid was in 5 trouble and/or a cop picked up your kid, most 6 -- most people would say "Oh, my God, what 7 did the kid do," you know, and they'd give him 8 a slap on the ear, and "Why did the cop pick 9 you up" and that was a more in some 10 communities that the cop was always right, and 11 if the teacher called you and said the kid got 12 to be too wise in class you'd take the kid 13 home and give him a "potch" on the rear 14 because the teacher had to be right and maybe 15 those were better days in certain ways, but 16 unfortunately today there are just too many 17 situations where there are confrontations and 18 the kid didn't do anything except maybe be in 19 the wrong place at the wrong time as far as 20 some police officer was concerned, and I think 21 that we're opening the door for that few 22 hundred, if there are, and I'm not -- I don't 23 want anybody to say that I said there were 24 hundreds of bad cops in the city of New York, 25 because I'm not saying that, but what I'm 1 saying is that when you have a force that runs 2 into 30,000-some-odd, the opportunity for just 3 a half of a percent or one percent, and I 4 think we have to be careful of the doors that 5 we open. 6 The Court of Appeals decision 7 which this case, or which this law seeks to 8 change, has been the law in this state for 9 some 21 years at least. At least that's the 10 restatement of it, and there's no doubt in 11 existing law that a police officer can act in 12 reasonable suspicions and in cases where there 13 have been crimes committed. We allow police 14 officers to act, and thank God we allow them 15 to act for our own protection, but I think 16 with the greatest respect for Senator Volker 17 and the greatest respect for the Governor, and 18 I do have that respect, that this bill goes 19 too far. It tries to handle a problem that 20 doesn't exist, and I'm afraid it's going to 21 create some real problems which we then will 22 have and have to deal with. 23 So I'm going to vote in the 24 negative, Mr. President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 1 Thank you, Senator Gold. 2 Read the last section. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 4 President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 6 Senator Leichter. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Maybe it is 8 superfluous to get up and speak on the bill 9 because I think Senator Gold has made a very 10 good analytical examination of the bill; but I 11 just ask you again to read the bill because 12 with all due respect to Senator Volker or the 13 second floor, if that's where the bill came 14 from, it's an incredibly poorly worded bill. 15 I know no other way to describe it. 16 I don't know what it means that 17 the person has an objective credible reason. 18 These are words that have no known meaning. I 19 don't know what is an objective reason. You 20 could have a reason that could be totally 21 unrelated to the welfare of the person that 22 you're going to stop and ask questions. Could 23 be unrelated to the benefit of society; could 24 be objective. I don't know what objective is. 25 Credible in one sense, credible for the taking 1 a side or credible from the viewpoint of a 2 police officer who is doing certain personal 3 interests, I -- that could be credible, but it 4 may not be justifiable, and then -- and I 5 think Senator Gold pointed this out, that in 6 the event you stop the person you may ask this 7 question and take such other actions as the 8 officer deems appropriate. So the officer is 9 made the judge of what is appropriate in that 10 instance that Senator Gold gave, where an 11 officer stops somebody, seems to be acting a 12 bit strange and says, Are you ill, and the 13 person says, I don't want to talk to you, and 14 so on. Well, the officer could take that 15 person into custody because that's deemed 16 appropriate by the officer. 17 The one thing that's been 18 totally lacking from the explanation in 19 support of this bill: Why do we need it? 20 What instances have you pointed to where 21 society right now is endangered or is a 22 problem because we don't have this provision? 23 I think there is ample opportunity, ample 24 rights for police officers if they have a 25 suspicion of criminality, to stop somebody to 1 ask questions and to take action, but to allow 2 a police officer to do it when, as this bill 3 says, there is a reason not necessarily 4 indicative of criminality, it seems to me is 5 so extending the powers of the police, and I'm 6 sorry to have to say this, but all I see in 7 bill after bill extending the powers of the 8 police, extending the powers of prosecutors, 9 and so on. There seems to be little regard 10 for constitutional protections, little regard 11 for what really created this country, what was 12 the prime motivating cause, which is people's 13 freedoms, people's rights not to be 14 questioned, not to be harassed, not to have 15 authority put its heavy hand on somebody's 16 shoulder and say, What are you doing? 17 Bills like that do move us 18 towards a police state. You may argue, well, a 19 police state is a much safer country. Well, 20 maybe in some respects it is. You give police 21 totally unfettered powers, yes, maybe you'll 22 have less crime, but obviously at a cost that 23 I don't think the people of this state or the 24 people of this country are willing to pay. 25 So while all of us want to give 1 the police all of the powers that are right, 2 that are appropriate, and we certainly want 3 safety in our streets, but don't do it at the 4 expense of people's rights, of people's 5 liberties. Remember what really is the 6 crowning jewel of our society, which is the 7 liberty and the independence and the freedom 8 that we have, and I tell you this bill 9 trespasses on those rights and that liberty 10 and on our freedom. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 12 Thank you, Senator Leichter. 13 Senator Paterson, please. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 15 Mr. President. 16 If the sponsor would yield for 17 a question. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 19 Senator Volker, do you yield? 20 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 22 President, my question applies to something 23 Senator Volker said earlier. He said this 24 bill does not apply to those individuals that 25 are in a car. Would you explain that, Senator 1 Volker, because in urban areas around the 2 city, people are often sitting in cars and 3 perhaps that's what causes them to appear to 4 be suspicious. They may not be actually 5 operating the vehicle, or would the police 6 officer be able to observe a certain kind of 7 conduct for which the officers found raised an 8 eyebrow and then pursued someone who then got 9 into a car, or an individual who was observed 10 in a car conducting themselves in some fashion 11 that gave rise to inquiry and then got out of 12 the car? What is the actual rule about the 13 automobile? 14 SENATOR VOLKER: I mean the 15 question of whether you get in or out of the 16 car is another issue, but the reason this 17 wouldn't apply to auto stops is that there's 18 another -- there's other areas of the law 19 that, frankly, deal with that. 20 We're talking about in a public 21 place and, as you know, there have been a 22 number of cases that have dealt with the issue 23 of public places, and inside an auto is not a 24 public place as such, and I think it's 25 generally considered that what we're talking 1 about here is someone who is, in effect, 2 stopped on a public street because that's what 3 the cases have talked about and where the 4 issue of police stops as far as cars is, 5 frankly, a different issue. 6 You may -- I suppose you make a 7 point, if somebody runs into a car, I suppose 8 somebody could question somebody but what this 9 really deals with is the question of somebody 10 who is separate from an auto situation in a 11 public place because, when you get into the 12 auto situation, you get into traffic 13 situations and was there traffic violations 14 and all the rest of the things that might 15 allow stops or might involve the right to stop 16 which ironically has been found to be broader 17 than the right to talk to someone on the 18 street, even though their conduct clearly 19 appears to have been questionable conduct. The 20 cases don't seem to go that way. 21 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 22 Senator Volker. 23 Mr. President, on the bill. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: On 25 the bill. 1 SENATOR PATERSON: The content 2 of my questions were covered in the dialogue 3 between Senator Volker and Senator Gold. 4 However, I have a grave concern about this 5 type of legislation. 6 We live in a country, the 7 greatest country in the world, that was 8 founded on the basis of freedom, where people 9 were encouraged to initiate, not to retreat; 10 people were encouraged to explore, not to 11 retire, to prosper, not to plunder, and the 12 whole basis of our Constitution and our 13 Declaration of Independence was to move away 14 from the arbitrariness of the tyrranical 15 British system that subjected people who lived 16 in this land to that kind of scrutiny. 17 I feel that this piece of 18 legislation brings back that type of 19 observation to those who, for the most part, 20 are innocent. There is no evidence that there 21 is a great need for this legislation. Crime 22 is not up; crime is down. Police officers are 23 not being unduly harassed by the citizenry. 24 If anything, the greater complaint is often 25 that few and very few police officers often 1 exercise their duties in an excessive manner. 2 So the relationship between the 3 public and the police is actually, other than 4 that, rather good, and so to expand the 5 jurisdiction of police officers and to adopt 6 what is called an objective standard but can 7 only be enforced in a subjective way, in my 8 opinion, is taking a giant step backward in 9 our history. 10 I recognize that the Governor's 11 office put this legislation on the table. I 12 hope the office knows about the situation that 13 occurred in Oneonta where a woman identified 14 an African-American male as the perpetrator in 15 a crime, and the officers went to a school and 16 then questioned every African-American student 17 in the school who was male. 18 When we look at the number of 19 times that individuals bring forward, as 20 Senator Waldon did in his eloquent debate last 21 year, his own scrutiny as a former police 22 officer, as an elected official, it really 23 raises an eyebrow. 24 I myself, Mr. President, have 25 been stopped on at least four or five 1 occasions, once because the officer said that 2 someone had robbed a house in a block that I 3 was running out of. I was out running; I had 4 a jogging suit on. He didn't know that that 5 was the block, or he didn't know that that was 6 the block in which I resided and took the time 7 to ask. There was no house that was actually 8 robbed on that particular block. 9 In the last four years the 10 automobile that I use, in spite of the fact 11 that it used to be used by Senator Gold, we've 12 been stopped four times for reasons such as, 13 We checked the license plate number and we 14 thought it was a stolen vehicle. One time I 15 was called at my home because the police 16 officer did not believe that a staff member of 17 mine really was a staff member, and he called 18 me to make sure that the officer's interest 19 was addressed. 20 So what I'm trying to say is 21 that the issue of the disproportionate effect 22 that this bill would have on particularly 23 African-Americans and Hispanics in this state 24 and the fact that there is often selective 25 enforcement outweighs any positive value of 1 this legislation that I can find. 2 There are many pieces of 3 legislation that I have felt privately had a 4 disproportionate effect on the African 5 American community, and I hope my colleagues 6 would recognize that I actually don't get up 7 and address the issue, and the reason that I 8 don't is that even though I feel that it may 9 have that actual effect, I don't want to in 10 any way diminish the value of my argument by 11 applying it in every single case or in 12 numerous cases, but it is in situations such 13 as this that I think that it is very important 14 to raise this issue, because while not wanting 15 to minimize the argument over other cases 16 where there may be some degree of selective 17 enforcement, this is a situation where almost 18 any African-American male you will talk to has 19 a litany of experiences about problems with 20 police officers regardless of their ideology, 21 whether it be liberal or conservative or 22 whatever their party affiliation is, and the 23 reason that it seems to occur is not because 24 the police officers are biased, not because 25 the police officers are necessarily bigoted, 1 but because these officers have actually 2 fallen into the trap of making associations 3 and profiling criminality with certain 4 elements of the community which I think is a 5 human frailty that we all suffer, and 6 therefore, it's not actually the individual 7 conduct of the police officers that I'm 8 objecting to. It would be applying a legal 9 standard as we would be here today that would 10 actually, in a sense, lure and seduce the 11 individual into those types of ideosyncratic 12 behavior from which we all suffer. 13 So I oppose this bill without 14 any malice toward police officers, but 15 actually with a great confidence in our laws 16 that already exist, and the two cases that the 17 Court of Appeals has ruled on have really 18 given us great guidance in this particular 19 area. They have first suggested that probable 20 cause should be the reason that police 21 officers should stop and question 22 individuals. Now, any police officer that 23 wants to render assistance as another member 24 of the public or as a police officer is 25 actually welcome. 1 The second is that the court 2 has rules that even those inquiries that fall 3 short of any kind of Fourth Amendment seizure, 4 or any kind of unconstitutional search, even 5 those inquiries that fall short, still 6 actually impugn -- impede on the integrity of 7 a person's individual right to freedom, and 8 this is something that is severely challenged 9 by this bill. 10 So as much as any negative vote 11 that I would actually recommend in this 12 session, I strongly suggest that this -- the 13 passage of this legislation is only going to 14 create unnecessary fear and anxiety in the 15 hearts of the innocent public, the 16 overwhelming number of people who are just 17 trying to conduct business and make use of our 18 public places without any undue inhibited 19 action on the part of any law enforcement and, 20 therefore, I would suggest a no vote on this 21 bill, Mr. President, and that in an otherwise 22 piece of legislation that has some other 23 values, I think that the Governor's office 24 really needs to reconsider this particular 25 measure which is actually not borne out by any 1 need and is in many respects devastating in 2 its effect not only in the selective 3 enforcement, but in the public confidence in 4 their police department. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 6 Thank you, Senator Paterson. 7 Senator Montgomery. 8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, thank 9 you, Mr. President. 10 Senator Paterson has stated so 11 much more eloquently. I would just like to add 12 and reiterate that the legislation, as I have 13 said to Senator Volker in the past, in past 14 years when the legislation has come before us, 15 that this particular bill, the police officers 16 right now, as I have been instructed by police 17 officers in my district, they have the 18 authority to make an arrest or at least take a 19 young person into the precinct if that 20 youngster does not have proper I.D., so they 21 have, therefore, instructed me and others that 22 one of the things that we should be doing is 23 trying to develop a system whereby youngsters 24 can have I.D., carry it with them, to carry 25 with them at all times in the event that a 1 police officer stops them. So that is already 2 in the law. They already have the authority 3 to do that, and obviously on occasion they 4 do. 5 Very often what I see young 6 people who are idling on the street doing 7 their -- whatever their activities are, it is 8 not criminal -- it is not with criminal intent 9 that they gather and play their music and talk 10 loud, and swear and do whatever they do, but 11 with this legislation, we now set up a 12 situation where an officer can move into that 13 kind of gathering of young people and, if I 14 read this correctly, take whatever action they 15 deem necessary, and so not only does it give 16 the officer the authority to do that, but it 17 also places the officer in a position to 18 provoke young people to respond in a hostile 19 fashion. 20 So the whole notion of 21 community respect and responsibility that the 22 City has instituted would be undermined just 23 to a large extent by this, and I must say that 24 it is obviously specifically going to impact 25 most dramatically on young African-American 1 males in particular, but young people in 2 general, and so I think this is, as Senator 3 Paterson has so eloquently stated, and Senator 4 Gold, this really is a step in the wrong 5 direction. 6 We really take the whole issue 7 of law enforcement far out of the realm of 8 stopping crime or protecting the safety of the 9 public. We now put it in a position where the 10 police become the enemy in neighborhoods 11 because they have the authority to stop 12 anyone, me or anyone else, just because they 13 feel that they want to stop and force me to 14 show my I.D. for no apparent reason. 15 So I am opposed to this and I 16 hope that my colleagues will join those of us 17 who will be voting no on this legislation. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 19 Thank you, Senator Montgomery. 20 Senator Volker. 21 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 22 let me first of all say, and I understand the 23 sensitivity of some of my colleagues, and I 24 hesitate to over-simplify things because, you 25 know, obviously this is a very sensitive 1 issue. 2 Senator Montgomery, let me 3 suggest this to you. Whoever the police 4 officer that told you that he can bring 5 someone in to a police station because they 6 don't have any I.D., you can tell him the 7 chairman of Codes Committee who used to be a 8 police officer would like to know under what 9 authority that person would be able to do that 10 unless there was some criminality or, by the 11 way, under this legislation it would limit 12 that even more. The ironic twist is this 13 legislation's passage would mitigate against 14 that because they would have to have some 15 objective credible evidence to do it. 16 The second thing I'd like to 17 point out to everyone is, before you get too 18 excited that this is going to change the 19 world, this will change extremely little out 20 in the streets. For one thing, and I think 21 it's something that all of us should think 22 about, particularly minorities, most of the 23 cases -- and there's been a lot of cases and 24 one thing I would just -- Senator Gold is 25 extremely bright, and I mean this very 1 sincerely, and has been involved in these 2 areas longer than I have, I would say to you 3 that the standard -- you said the standard has 4 been in place for 21 years. 5 Senator, the standard has been 6 in place totally for one year. The latest 7 change in the standard was 196... 1996 8 rather, the Terrigo case. Let me point out to 9 you that a number of the people who were 10 victims whose cases now, the convictions of 11 the people who either killed them or 12 victimized them were minorities because the 13 minority neighborhoods are the places where 14 many of these crimes are being committed. 15 The real impact of this bill 16 lies not really as much in the street as it is 17 in the courtrooms, because what's really 18 happening, this won't have a dramatic effect 19 out there because police officers are going to 20 operate in reasonably the same way that they 21 have. The fact that we're going to do a bill 22 that says, Well, you have to have reasonable 23 credibility or whatever it is, they're going 24 to deal with it and hopefully, by the way, 25 they'll be apprised of even more of their 1 obligation, and that's something that I think 2 we all want. 3 The real truth is that one of 4 the things that we as legislators should 5 understand is we're dealing with the courts. 6 We're really not dealing with the streets as 7 much. We can say we are. We can think that 8 everybody reads our legislation and says, 9 Well, now I can do this or I can do that. 10 It's not really the way it works. We're 11 talking about what's happened here is the 12 courts have been reinterpreting statutes that 13 we have passed for years and set up. For 14 instance now, we used to have a one-tier 15 standard for stops; now it's four, four tiers. 16 By the way, no state in the Union has that, 17 and I am very sensitive -- and by the way I've 18 been stopped also, so that you understand in 19 fact as legislators, I can tell you some 20 instances of people calling on, Where is my 21 car, things of that nature, so it's not just 22 minorities. I mean law enforcement people are 23 much more aware, which is probably a good 24 thing, by the way. When my son was driving my 25 car one time, they saw a young person driving 1 the car, he did not have -- they wanted to 2 know, you know, Is this your son, and so forth 3 and so on, not necessarily a bad thing I guess 4 because of the world we live in. 5 But, and I don't mean to tell 6 you that there isn't a sensitivity in the 7 minority neighborhood. The problem is -- and, 8 by the way, it's sometimes in the white 9 neighborhoods for other reasons, and I think 10 it's unfortunate, and I think the way to stop 11 it, though, is to deal with the root cause of 12 it, which is crime. 13 One of the things we forget 14 sometimes is that the relationship between law 15 enforcement people and the people in the 16 streets is extremely important and, if we 17 frustrate the process with interminable 18 nonsense in our courts and allow criminals - 19 let's face it, criminals to go free because 20 we've decided on -- the judges have decided on 21 some complicated ratio system that has nothing 22 to do with our rights, but has to do with the 23 fact that they're redissecting the process 24 after a police officer has done what he 25 thought was rational under the circumstances, 1 and which they don't even say what's 2 irrational. It's just they say he didn't 3 follow the procedure completely and, 4 therefore, the Terrigo case, they found the 5 body, they found the drugs and the guns, and 6 so forth, but he didn't approach him 7 correctly. I mean does that make any sense? 8 And I think this is really the problem here. 9 I would not -- and I tell you this very 10 sincerely. I would not develop any standard 11 that I believed would directly enhance the 12 problems that are occurring out there in the 13 street or give any law enforcement officer the 14 authority to do something he shouldn't do and 15 any police officer that tells you that he can 16 pick someone up simply because they don't have 17 identification and take them to the station, 18 all other things being absent, because I don't 19 know, you know, all other things being absent, 20 if there's a crime been committed or in the 21 case if this person is a suspect for whatever 22 reason or, of course, if he gives information 23 that's clearly erroneous for some reason, 24 that's different, but simply because he 25 doesn't have identification, there is no such 1 law and you can tell that police officer for 2 me and I'd like to know where that -- where 3 that statute came from. It goes for any 4 neighborhood, whether it's minority, whether 5 it's majority, whatever it is, and it's 6 possible some law enforcement people do that, 7 but if they're going to arrest somebody, 8 they're going to end up losing that case. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Read 10 the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. 12 This act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Call 14 the roll. 15 (The Secretary called the 16 roll. ) 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 18 President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 20 Senator Leichter, to explain his vote. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Just one 22 second. You checking on Catherine and other 23 people? 24 Mr. President, I just want to 25 answer some of the things that Senator Volker 1 said. I mean, Senator, you know, this court 2 bashing, like the Legislature has got to step 3 in because these judges don't know what the 4 Constitution is, they don't read the laws 5 correctly, these are the judges that we 6 confirm here, a judge like we confirmed 7 earlier. Everybody gets up and praises the 8 judges, the judges that we elect. There's 9 many of them are former members of the 10 Legislature. The fact of the matter is that 11 the courts traditionally have the role of 12 protecting the liberties and the rights of 13 people and, Senator Volker, I don't know 14 anything the courts have done that have 15 impeded the rights of police officers if they 16 have a probable cause from stopping somebody 17 and taking appropriate action. 18 What you're doing is giving 19 police officers the right to stop people and 20 to possibly arrest people or in other ways 21 impose their authority on people when, as your 22 bill says, there's no indication of 23 criminality. That's not needed. That's wrong. 24 That infringes on our liberties, and let me 25 say it's not only the courts, Senator Volker, 1 but it's us here too that ought to have a 2 concern about the right of free people. 3 I vote no. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 5 Thank you, Senator Leichter. 6 Senator Montgomery, to explain 7 her vote. 8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr. 9 President. I just want to, in brief response 10 to my colleague, Senator Volker, who obviously 11 knows the law much better than I do having 12 been in law enforcement and all, but as I read 13 what the law allows already, it is that if an 14 officer reasonably suspects that a person is 15 committing, has committed or is about to 16 commit, now in many instances he may take 17 action and may demand of him his name, address 18 and an explanation of his conduct. 19 Now, what happens frequently is 20 that officers do come along. There is some 21 special drug enforcement activity going on or 22 whatever, but I am aware that the police do 23 have the authority, and I'm not certain of all 24 of the circumstances. They do have the 25 authority to take young people in, and they 1 do. They have said they do, especially if 2 that young person does not have proper I.D. 3 That is a very big issue in New 4 York City, and it is one of the things that we 5 are working together with the police 6 department to try and do, develop a system of 7 having I.D. made available to youngsters so 8 that they won't be stopped. 9 So certainly it is the case. I 10 certainly don't want to say to you that the 11 police are doing anything wrong. I think that 12 they are doing what is -- what is under their 13 -- in their authority to do based on the law 14 that already exists. 15 So, Mr. President, I'm voting 16 no on this, and I hope that my colleagues will 17 join me in voting no because clearly this sets 18 up a very, very dangerous situation between 19 police and the public. 20 Thank you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 22 Senator Montgomery in the negative. 23 Senator DeFrancisco, to explain 24 his vote. 25 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: To 1 explain my no vote by saying that the standard 2 reasonable credible standard not necessarily 3 indicative of criminality is too broad, and I 4 believe it's also unconstitutional. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 6 Senator DeFrancisco votes no. 7 Senator Stavisky, to explain 8 his vote? Thank you, Senator Stavisky. 9 Senator Abate also in the negative. Senator 10 Smith in the negative. O.K. Senator Santiago 11 in the negative. 12 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded 13 in the negative on Calendar Number 27, 14 Senators Abate, Connor, DeFrancisco, Gold, 15 Leichter, Mendez, Montgomery, Paterson, 16 Sampson, Santiago, Seabrook, Smith and 17 Stavisky. Ayes 45, nays 13. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: The 19 bill is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 110, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 4487, an 22 act to amend the Public Authorities Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 24 Senator Velella, an explanation has been 25 requested. 1 SENATOR VELELLA: This is a 2 bill that we have debated and passed several 3 years now. What it says is that, when in the 4 city of New York we are awarding contracts to 5 build schools, no longer will the requirement 6 that one percent of the cost of construction 7 be devoted solely to producing works of art 8 within that school. 9 Many of you will remember, and 10 I believe Senator Leichter has alluded to the 11 photograph of the Governor and I at a school 12 in the Bronx in past debates, and that school, 13 there was an arch that was built with some 14 wire hangers dangling from it. We paid 15 $187,000 for that piece of work that was such 16 an exquisite work of art. To the best of my 17 knowledge, we have still not located the local 18 resident artist who created this beautiful 19 piece of work. $187,000 worth of art work in a 20 school that the elevators weren't working. 21 I think that the priority ought 22 to be to put those dollars that are available 23 for bricks and mortar, to repair our schools. 24 Certainly the Speaker has expressed a very, 25 very keen interest in seeing that dollars go 1 into repairing our schools in the city of New 2 York and that we ought not to be putting one 3 or two percent of a contract to being 4 appropriated for art work. 5 There are other avenues to 6 provide art work within our schools. There are 7 foundations that will provide us -- loan art 8 work to our schools. There are the students 9 themselves that produce art work. There are 10 locals artists who would be happy to have 11 exhibitions within our schools. So we're not 12 being totally insensitive to the artistic 13 community. What we're saying is we've got to 14 get our priorities in order, and if there are 15 a limited amount of dollars, the dollars ought 16 to be spent in giving our children and our 17 young people the opportunity to have an 18 educational experience in sound settings 19 without roofs leaking, without windows 20 rattling, without the danger of a building 21 collapsing around us, and I think that's the 22 priority, and we can work on the Council -- on 23 the arts work later on. 24 There are certainly funds 25 available through the Council on the Arts. 1 There are local groups that would be happy to 2 participate in artistic programs within the 3 schools, and that basically is the bill. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 5 Senator Gold. 6 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, Mr. 7 President. Thank you very much, and I will be 8 brief, but I just wanted to make a point. I 9 couldn't help thinking as Senator Velella was 10 speaking how many of us on this side of the 11 aisle from the city of New York have been 12 fighting for years on the issue of dollars for 13 schools, and yesterday the mayor who is not of 14 my political party, the mayor of the city of 15 New York spoke before the Finance Committee on 16 the Governor's budget, and I thought the mayor 17 was very eloquent, and one of the points he 18 made was the need for some proper adjustment 19 of the school aid formula and, Senator 20 Velella, I need not tell you that without 21 getting into the issue of art which I think is 22 being scapegoated in this bill -- and I say 23 that respectfully because I think you're very 24 sincere about the presentation -- but without 25 getting involved in the art question, if you 1 just did what the Republican mayor of the city 2 of New York suggested and give us a fair deal 3 on the school aid formula, if you gave us a 4 fair deal on the STAR program, and if we 5 weren't constantly being cut in our 6 percentages of state dollars, we could have 7 that little bit of art work, and we could take 8 care of all the needs of the schools also. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 10 Senator Oppenheimer. 11 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank 12 you. In a way, I think Senator Velella was 13 sort of pitting education against art, or the 14 arts. 15 You can't hear me, Guy? You 16 sounded like you were pitting education and 17 quality buildings in which education should be 18 taking part against the art. 19 Many of us feel a major 20 component of education is art -- is the arts, 21 is the viewing of arts, the teaching of arts. 22 Many of us feel that though math and science 23 will in many ways stay with us the rest of our 24 lives that it is music and visual and 25 performing arts that is with us on a daily 1 basis. 2 So to say that art is not a 3 part of the academic or educational experience 4 is, I think, a misrepresentation of what many, 5 many people in New York State feel, where art 6 is so important to our state, not only for the 7 value that it gives to society, but for the 8 enormous economic incentive it gives for the 9 engine to drive here in our state. 10 So I think up to one percent of 11 the cost, where it is not mandated, is - 12 simply said is it may be applied to the arts. 13 SENATOR VELELLA: No, 14 required. 15 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No? It's 16 required, but still I think it is a small 17 price to pay for something so enormously 18 significant to the state of New York and, if 19 we don't bring our young people along in the 20 arts, they are not going to be a party to it. 21 I spend a considerable amount 22 of time in Lincoln Center. May I say that 23 there almost everybody has gray hair. And 24 it's kind of sad, because we certainly want 25 the arts to stay alive and without educating 1 our youngsters, it won't. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 3 Thank you, Senator Oppenheimer. 4 Senator Montgomery. 5 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, thank 6 you. 7 As I had said last session, 8 when Senator Velella introduced this bill, Mr. 9 President, the bill -- if I may just ask 10 Senator Velella to -- if he would yield for 11 one question. 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 14 Senator Velella, do you yield? 15 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 16 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: The bill 17 seems to essentially ultimately eliminate the 18 arts program entirely. 19 SENATOR VELELLA: Those of us, 20 if I may respond, those of us who are on this 21 side of the aisle have a Majority Leader who 22 tries to lead us a little bit on something 23 that is very important, and that is 24 communicating with each other. He constantly 25 stresses that. What I said apparently is not 1 what you and Senator Oppenheimer heard. 2 This is not involving arts 3 programs, teaching people about art, dance 4 programs, Council on the Arts money. We are 5 probably going to be increasing that. There 6 will be increased arts programs, so that the 7 revenue you are concerned about, Senator 8 Oppenheimer, that the arts generate will be 9 going up. Senator Goodman would have a heart 10 attack here if I were proposing to cut arts 11 money. That is going to be increased. 12 This is saying where we have 13 construction money in your district, Senator 14 Montgomery, there are tremendous needs to 15 improve the structure of buildings, the 16 infrastructure, the bricks and mortar, the 17 leaking roofs, the windows that are broken. 18 Where that money is, let's not take one 19 percent of that money and put it towards 20 decorating school buildings with arches and 21 hangers on them so that these local artists or 22 whomever they may be, are peddling the stuff 23 at the cost of $187,000 dollars for one piece 24 of art I still can't figure out. 25 I think maybe if we look back a 1 few years if I were here, I would say we made 2 some mistakes in some of the art work that we 3 appropriated for the Mall, but then again I'm 4 not very sensitive to that art type. I'm not 5 a modern art fan. 6 But what I am saying is we 7 should not be wasting our money on art work 8 when we need to spend our money on the 9 physical structures for our students to learn, 10 an environment where the roof isn't leaking, 11 where the windows aren't being blown out, and 12 the bricks aren't falling out of the building 13 like we're seeing in our city. 187,000 in the 14 school that I went to with the Governor would 15 have made that elevator work, would have done 16 a lot of repair work instead of an arch and 17 some hangers. That's what I'm talking about, 18 not eliminating the arts program in our 19 schools. It's funded differently and 20 certainly, you know, I support the mayor's 21 concept that we should be restructuring the 22 financial system by which the City receives 23 money. We have a lot of work to do to undo 24 all the harm that Mario Cuomo did, and we're 25 working on it. We're going to straighten that 1 out inch by inch and step by step, so work 2 along with us on this. 3 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I 4 apologize for my miscommunication, but I do 5 understand that this is a different program 6 from the arts program in the schools, the arts 7 curriculum. I understand that, but 8 nonetheless, this eliminates essentially the 9 opportunity for schools to invest in art work 10 that is related to the permanency of the 11 building which becomes part of the culture. 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Will you 13 yield to a question? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 15 Senator Montgomery. 16 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: For as 17 long as the building exists. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 19 Senator Velella, why do you rise? 20 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, let 21 me ask you this question. You have a choice, 22 fixing the roof that's leaking in the 23 classroom and water dripping down on these 24 kids or having a nice painting on the wall, 25 which would you take? 1 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Let me 2 just respond by saying - 3 SENATOR VELELLA: You can't 4 have both. 5 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: -- that we 6 can have both. One has nothing to do with the 7 other, because the maintenance and upkeep 8 ongoing of a building happens long after the 9 art has been placed in the building, long 10 after the building has been built, 11 constructed. We still, no matter what, if you 12 have art or not, you still are going to have 13 to find additional funding to fix the 14 elevators and the roof and the windows at some 15 later date. 16 This program happened as part 17 of the initial construction of the building, 18 so what you are referring to, the broken 19 elevators don't really have to do and are not 20 -- was not caused by the fact that school 21 invested in art. 22 What I'm talking about, what we 23 are talking about, Senator Velella -- Mr. 24 President, if I can speak to Senator Velella 25 through you -- what I'm concerned about is 1 that we have an opportunity to create a very 2 unique environment that incorporates some form 3 of art work that will last for the lifetime of 4 the building and becomes part of the community 5 and an identifying aspect of that school. 6 It has nothing to do with the 7 fact that the elevators are going to break 8 down and things are going to happen. That 9 school must also, in addition, have an ongoing 10 source of funding for the maintenance of the 11 building. So this is your -- as one of the 12 Senators before me has said, the art is being 13 scapegoated here and that's what we're talking 14 about, Senator Velella. 15 We don't want to lose the 16 opportunity to have art in the schools because 17 we're concerned about the elevator breaking 18 down. 19 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Tell him 20 the art won't break down. 21 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: One has 22 nothing to do with the other. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 24 Thank you, Senator Montgomery. 25 Senator Smith. 1 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you, Mr. 2 President. 3 I'd like each and every one of 4 us to take the opportunity to look around this 5 beautiful room. This room gives art, elegance, 6 quietude, and if you go into the Assembly 7 where the decor is not as elegant, the members 8 there are not as genteel as they may be on 9 this side in this chamber. 10 Surveys have shown that young 11 people learn better when they have the things 12 that are aesthetically beautiful, when they 13 have barren gray walls there's nothing to 14 view, there's nothing -- it doesn't -- it's 15 not creative, and I think that art is 16 important to the learning process and 17 hopefully, the beauty in this room will be a 18 learning process for some of you on the other 19 side of the aisle, and you will vote no on 20 this bill. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 22 Thank you, Senator Smith. 23 Senator Paterson. 24 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 25 Mr. President. 1 I can't add very much to what 2 Senator Smith said. I think she really hit the 3 nail right on the head not only about the art 4 work but the relative relationship of the 5 houses of government here. I agree completely, 6 and would one of those who makes this body so 7 much more distinguished, Senator Velella, 8 kindly yield to a couple of questions? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 10 Senator Velella, do you yield? 11 SENATOR VELELLA: Be careful 12 what you say. I did ten years in the big 13 house. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 15 President, Senator, you're -- I don't really 16 understand your legislation. I don't think it 17 actually cures the problem that you wish to 18 cure. I guess sometimes there's these little 19 simple expressions that explain what one feels 20 about a situation. I want to say that you're 21 barking up the wrong tree, but maybe you're 22 hanging from the wrong arch. 23 I think that you have touched 24 upon an issue that needs to be addressed, but 25 I don't know why you would address it through 1 this type of legislation and obviously what 2 happened was somebody threw a bunch of hangers 3 together or some really appalling work that 4 they called art and strung it up on some 5 school and then billed the state for $187,000, 6 and you may have gotten the impression - 7 excuse me. 8 SENATOR VELELLA: And then 9 disappeared. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: And then 11 disappeared after that. 12 Well, I've been here talking to 13 you about this for four years about this 14 person and we really need to find him because 15 the issue is -- the issue really is that the 16 system as we created it doesn't work, and what 17 I would suggest is, for instance, in those 18 types of situations perhaps we would have a 19 task force and it doesn't have to be any big 20 deal but some people just to go around and 21 look at the finished product so that we don't 22 have this kind of waste. 23 But what you've actually done 24 is to create legislation where your own memo 25 says that there isn't enough money for -- for 1 adequate school construction, and that's 2 exactly what we fear, that in other words 3 because there's an assumption that there isn't 4 enough money that there would, therefore, 5 never be any kind of artistic work or any kind 6 of expression that would be considered when - 7 when building these edifices that we use as 8 schools, and that, therefore, they would stand 9 as eyesores rather than pillars of learning, 10 and my question - 11 SENATOR VELELLA: Is your 12 question "is that correct"? If your question 13 is "is that correct," the answer is no. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Pray 15 elucidate. 16 Well, then, Senator Velella, 17 what I'm saying is, isn't it going to be the 18 case that after we make this proposal that 19 you've offered us law, that we'll never see 20 any artistic construction in these buildings? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 22 Senator Velella, I believe there's a 23 question. 24 SENATOR VELELLA: Let me 25 respond. First of all, by this committee that 1 you suggest, I think that might be very nice 2 but would you like me to be a member of that 3 committee to evaluate the value of that art 4 and whether or not we ought to pay the person 5 who created these rather unique artistic 6 expressions? 7 SENATOR PATERSON: I would 8 suggest that, sir, you seem to have a great 9 range - 10 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, let me 11 tell you, I wouldn't spend $187,000 on arches 12 and hangers and some of the things we've seen, 13 and certainly less than we've spent on the 14 Mall and around here. Certainly in the days 15 before they created the two chambers I would 16 say that the Senate is a lot more artistic, 17 because of the sensitivity of the members. 18 I'm sure both houses had equal amounts of 19 money back in the old days, but I would say we 20 probably spend the money more wisely but 21 certainly I would not have a problem in trying 22 to incorporate the works that you speak about 23 in a budget, were the money available. 24 We are in serious problems in 25 the city of New York and I would venture to 1 say that if you went to your own constituents 2 like we went to some of the people in some of 3 these schools where we saw this proposed art 4 work, the parents in those schools said, We 5 don't want this. We want good solid 6 classrooms, good desks, good fixtures, windows 7 that don't let water in, roofs that don't leak 8 on our kids, and bricks that don't fall on 9 their heads. 10 We want our kids to have a good 11 learning environment and, yes, we can find 12 alternative ways of providing art. We're not 13 eliminating an art budget. As I said before, 14 we're putting more money into the arts. Let 15 some of our artistic institutions, some of the 16 foundations lend some art work out to the 17 schools. It's been done before. Let some of 18 the teachers, some of these programs develop 19 artistic things, local art, cultural art, 20 those are all things that can be done. Let 21 the students participate in decorating the 22 building. We don't have to spend one percent. 23 That adds up to an awful lot of money. The 24 building of a high school it's almost $300,000 25 in the building of a high school, 180,000 in 1 the building of a junior high school, and 2 maybe 120,000 in the building of an elementary 3 school. That can provide something more for 4 those students by way of construction needs as 5 opposed to the artistic waste of money that's 6 being spent now on these types of structures 7 like an arch with some hangers, and I use that 8 only as an example. There are many more. If 9 we traveled around the City, we'd see them. 10 One you might be familiar with 11 is down in the Police Plaza where they have a 12 couple of gigantic manhole covers that they 13 put together and call art, which I think cost 14 about a million dollars. Those are things 15 that, if you like them, great, but what we 16 have to get back to basics of where your kids 17 are being educated, what type of a building it 18 is, whether or not they're safe. 19 I venture to say to you that 20 every parent in your district would vote for 21 repairing the roof, repairing the windows, 22 building the new schools, rather than having 23 an artistic expression there. We can find 24 other ways, so we ought to work together to do 25 that, to decorate these buildings and provide 1 artistic sensitivity. 2 We haven't eliminated art 3 classes. We haven't eliminated the arts 4 programs. We're eliminating taking 5 construction money and spending it on these 6 artistic expressions that we can't afford. We 7 need bricks and mortar, not more art. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 9 President, I do not believe that Senator 10 Velella's bill cures this problem because at 11 some point he does not eliminate the art work 12 being involved in the actual construction of 13 buildings. What he does is he removes the 14 mandate that one percent of the funds be 15 designated toward art work when erecting the 16 buildings and so, therefore, as long as there 17 is -- as long as the School Construction 18 Authority has the option to actually engage in 19 using art work, as long as that's the case, 20 the same problem that Senator Velella is so 21 exercised about can happen again. It will 22 happen again, and what I'm simply saying is, 23 let's not confuse what decisions we would make 24 if it came to weighing the value of art work 25 versus the value of construction. 1 Independent School 88, which is 2 known as the Wadleigh School, which is located 3 in my district, was in such an appalling state 4 that I actually invited the late Senator 5 Donovan there ten years ago to look at that 6 school and it became actually emblematic of 7 the creation of our School Construction 8 Authority. 9 I would suggest that many of us 10 have seen schools like that and we know very 11 well that you can't, as a matter of humanity, 12 ask children to study in schools where there 13 are holes in the roof or they're sitting in 14 the halls, where the buildings are falling 15 apart, where the windows have been blown in by 16 wind, where bricks are falling off the 17 building. 18 We would never misprioritize 19 the choice of whether or not to put art work 20 in or to finish the construction of the 21 building, but what I am trying to let Senator 22 Velella take notice of is the fact that when 23 it comes to curing the actual problem as long 24 as the School Construction Authority still has 25 the option which you've left them after we 1 pass this bill, Senator Velella, they will 2 still have the process and the case of our 3 people putting up monstrous looking pieces of 4 or collections of wires and arch work and 5 calling it art can still happen. What I'm 6 saying is it's not cured by capping it when 7 it's not cured by removing the mandate. 8 Now, on the issue of art work 9 itself, it is great that we tell young people 10 that they should have an appreciation for art 11 and then ask them to learn in these eyesores 12 that often are lacrimose and dolorous in their 13 appearance to the public. 14 What we are really saying is 15 that there's an inexorable connection between 16 the appreciation of art and education itself. 17 It's education which comes from the Latin 18 educo or educare, which really means to lead 19 out or away from what would be an ignoble 20 presence into what would be a sense of 21 understanding. Education and art are really 22 correlative. 23 I mentioned last year that the 24 president of the American Museum of Natural 25 History visited Albany some years ago and he 1 said that no matter how far back archaelogical 2 studies revealed certain elements of history 3 that even when they found the most primitive 4 hammers and shovels and little artifacts from 5 that period, on almost all of those artifacts 6 there was some insignia, there was some 7 signal, there was some design, and that is 8 really something that even some of our most 9 fascist dictatorships understand. In Cuba, 10 where there are no civil liberties, they still 11 understand dance and the culture as it relates 12 to their own education, and what we're saying 13 that those young people who are studying in 14 those buildings, you can tell them to 15 appreciate art but when you put them in an 16 edifice that has no actual cultural value, 17 you're really sending a mixed message. 18 When you look, Senator Velella, 19 at a magnificently organized piece of art, 20 something kind of shines through. It's kind 21 of like a light. You know it as soon as you 22 see it. As soon as Senator Smith got up and 23 talked about this chamber, we all looked up 24 and saw how beautiful it is and we don't know 25 what the connection is between our own ability 1 to engage in dialogue and the actual facility 2 that we're actually in. 3 What I'm saying is that that 4 also applies to younger people. The more they 5 are exposed to the true beauties of not only 6 our educational system and the books that they 7 read, but even the environment that they are 8 studying within, the more they get the 9 opportunity to have that light reach out and 10 touch them, the more they dream, the more they 11 think about what they can be, the more they 12 fantasize and perhaps create lofty ambitions 13 and goals for themselves and then act to 14 actually fulfill them. That connection 15 actually is there. It exists. 16 Now, the poet John Keats wrote, 17 Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard 18 are sweeter. We know that the building has to 19 be strong. It has to have a foundation. It 20 has to protect children but what we often - 21 we often don't know is that its actual 22 appearance actually influences their desire to 23 learn and that's why we think it's so 24 important, but because you are -- continue to 25 be so inspired by that arch work, Senator 1 Velella, we have decided to help you out. 2 All of us here in the Minority 3 Conference have put our funds together and we 4 are going to find the person who had put that 5 piece of whatever it was called up. We're 6 going to locate him, and so I appeal not only 7 to my colleagues but to all of you who are 8 here or even within the sound of my voice, if 9 you have any information leading to the 10 discovery of the individual that put that 11 piece of whatever it's called up in the Bronx, 12 please get in touch with my office or call our 13 toll-free number, 1 (800) APPRECIATION. 14 Thank you. 15 SENATOR VELELLA: Would the 16 Senator yield to a brief question? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 18 Senator Paterson, would you yield to a 19 question? 20 SENATOR VELELLA: I don't know 21 where this guy went, I don't want to ever see 22 him again. I don't know, I don't want to see 23 him, but wherever he is, we've never found 24 him. 25 SENATOR PATERSON: If we found 1 the individual, Senator, we could attach the 2 property. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 4 Senator Abate. 5 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. I'm not 6 sure what I can add to this debate, but I will 7 attempt to do this. 8 Would Senator Velella yield to 9 a question. Would you yield to a question? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 11 Would you yield? 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 13 SENATOR ABATE: Senator, I'm 14 not going to question you on your (inaudible) 15 ability, I want to ask you of your awareness 16 of how much we invest in the arts in the 17 United States as compared to other countries. 18 Are you aware that France invests $27 per 19 capita in the arts. 20 SENATOR VELELLA: France? That 21 would be - 22 SENATOR ABATE: The country in 23 Europe. 24 SENATOR VELELLA: Let me -- I 25 want to confess in my research on this bill, I 1 did not check what France spends per capita on 2 the arts. 3 SENATOR ABATE: O.K. 4 SENATOR VELELLA: I might have 5 been negligent in my research, Senator. 6 SENATOR ABATE: And are you 7 aware that Germany -- you know, I was 8 incorrect. Germany - 9 SENATOR VELELLA: Germany 10 either. 11 SENATOR ABATE: I was incorrect. 12 I stand to be corrected. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 14 Senators, would you come through the Chair, 15 please. 16 SENATOR ABATE: Pardon me? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 18 Would you address your remarks through the 19 Chair. 20 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, Mr. 21 Chairman, I would ask that Mr. -- Senator 22 Velella yield to another question. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 24 Senator Velella, do you continue to yield? 25 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 1 SENATOR ABATE: I was incorrect, 2 Senator Velella. Are you aware that Germany 3 invests $27 -- not France, Germany invests $27 4 per capita and that France invests $32 per 5 capita in the arts, and the United States, 6 which is an industrialized, civilized nation 7 who cares about the arts, right? Cares about 8 children, cares about education, only invests 9 68 cents per capita in the arts. I just 10 didn't know if you were aware of that and if 11 you were -- now that you are aware of it, 12 would you change your position on this bill? 13 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, what 14 I am aware of, let me tell you, is that 15 between 1989 and the present date, we have 16 spent over $11 million from our school 17 construction fund on 107 projects benefiting 18 only 61 schools, $11 million. I don't know 19 what that comes out to per capita but I say 20 for $11 million, we could have done a lot more 21 within the city of New York to help make our 22 buildings a lot sounder than we did, and for 23 $11 million, I would have thought even you 24 would have some projects in your district that 25 would have benefited from that $11 million 1 rather than just $11 million worth of art 2 work. 3 I believe this is a priority 4 and I am very happy that France is spending 5 whatever it is, $27, and Germany is spending 6 whatever it is, maybe their legislature 7 decided that's their priority. I think this 8 Legislature ought to make a statement and say 9 our priority is decent schools for our kids to 10 learn in and, if we have any money left over 11 -- we spend a fortune on the arts in this 12 state. I don't know where you got your 60 13 cents, but if you took - 14 SENATOR ABATE: 68 cents. 15 SENATOR VELELLA: 68 cents, but 16 if you take a look at what we spent on the 17 Council on the Arts, I would say and Senator 18 Goodman ought to be here shortly - 19 SENATOR ABATE: I checked all 20 my numbers with Senator Goodman. 21 SENATOR VELELLA: I would say 22 to you that I believe that we're spending a 23 lot more than that, but I can be corrected and 24 I will be back when we talk about the budget 25 and remind you about what we're spending on 1 the Council on the Arts in New York State and 2 what New York City puts into the budget for 3 the arts, and we do get a lot of benefit out 4 of that, there is a lot of revenue that's 5 generated through our supporting the arts, but 6 I don't think we are as callous as the picture 7 would be the way you're painting it when you 8 talk about Germany and France spend all this 9 money and we just have no sense of spending 10 any money on the arts. Let's spend the money 11 on the schools. The art will come later. 12 SENATOR ABATE: On the bill. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: On 14 the bill, Senator Abate. 15 SENATOR ABATE: We probably 16 agree that we should be spending as much money 17 as possible to educate our youth, and that's 18 the problem I have with this bill. We should 19 not be pitting education on the arts against 20 education on math and science and English, and 21 what you're suggesting is, if we don't find 22 this money for construction, and there is 23 plenty of money for construction and 24 maintenance, if we make that a priority. We 25 have $1.8 billion surplus; New York City is 1 facing a surplus. If that's not priority to 2 rehabilitate and make safe schools let's do 3 it, but let's not make a statement that we 4 only have money to do one thing. 5 Where in this Legislature have 6 we said we have one priority, we make it that 7 priority and everything else falls to the way 8 side. I don't think we would have this debate 9 today if the argument was should we cut the 10 math program, should we cut English, should we 11 cut civic programs, or whatever, and now you 12 may say, what's art work. It's not the 13 teaching of art. What is that painting in the 14 school? What meaning does that have to 15 students, and I suggest that's the gateway to 16 their learning and to the appreciation and 17 history of art. 18 Many young people who come into 19 the schools have never seen a piece of art. 20 It may be their first and only exposure to 21 something different in their world. And so I 22 take the premise, yes, I agree, we need to 23 spend money on construction, but we're talking 24 about pennies here. We need to invest in 25 introducing young people to the arts. It not 1 only enriches their minds, their souls. 2 SENATOR VELELLA: Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 4 Senator Velella, why do you rise? 5 SENATOR VELELLA: You said 6 something about -- would you yield to a 7 question? 8 SENATOR ABATE: Absolutely. 9 SENATOR VELELLA: You said that 10 some of our students come into our schools 11 without ever having seen a piece of art. I 12 think that's baloney. I mean let me tell you 13 something. Some of the best art has come from 14 the poorest areas throughout the world. 15 Simply because you're poor doesn't mean that 16 you have a lack of sensitivity to the arts or 17 that you haven't experienced something 18 artistic. I have seen some artistic works of 19 cavemen that are very interesting. 20 I think it's unfair to equate 21 poverty or deprivation or certain social 22 opportunities with the fact that you have a 23 lack of sensitivity to art and that we have to 24 educate you. I'm not that patronizing to the 25 poor. I hope that's not what you're 1 insinuating. 2 SENATOR ABATE: I think you 3 could have the record reread. There's nowhere 4 in that statement that I talked about poor 5 people, rich people, or any people that - 6 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, who are 7 the people that come to school that don't have 8 exposure to art? 9 SENATOR ABATE: You're - 10 SENATOR VELELLA: I ask you 11 again, where are those who don't have exposure 12 to art? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 14 Senators, please address your comments to the 15 Chair, if you would please. 16 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. I would 17 like to be able to continue to speak on the 18 bill. 19 I don't think it's a question 20 of wealth. I think it's a question of 21 exposure, what people learn in their family 22 and community. There are some communities and 23 families where young people have not seen, 24 maybe they've seen scribbling of art, and 25 maybe they've seen things on television, but 1 many of our young people, I don't care, rich 2 or poor, have not been exposed to the art, and 3 that's an opportunity within the educational 4 system to ensure everyone gets that exposure. 5 It's very important. I ran, and 6 I didn't understand the importance of the arts 7 until I ran art programs at Rikers Island 8 where there were young people who were exposed 9 to painting and drafting for the first time 10 and actually became proficient and they began 11 to see themselves differently and the world 12 differently. It taught them skills about 13 themselves, and so this is about opening 14 doors, it's opening up who they are, 15 understanding who they are, who the world - 16 what the world around them is. 17 So it's more than just an art 18 in a frame. It is about self-awareness. It's 19 about the awareness of the world, and it's 20 about general education. So if you were to put 21 forward today a companion bill that said we 22 need to spend this money differently for the 23 arts and for art appreciation and we need to 24 find -- definitely find some money for the 25 arts, I would say that's O.K. You want to 1 spend more money for construction and 2 maintenance but we're going to find another 3 pool of money and fund it appropriately and 4 spend it appropriately to make sure there's 5 art work and art appreciation classes in our 6 high schools and our elementary schools, then 7 that would be a good debate and we can talk 8 about how to wisely spend those dollars and 9 achieve our goals. 10 But, in fact, what this bill 11 does is says we only can have one value and 12 that value is, firstly and only, construction 13 and maintenance, and I think we're doing a 14 disservice to our communities, a disservice to 15 our children by supporting this bill; and also 16 be mindful we care about jobs. We want all 17 kinds of young people to pursue different 18 careers. Some people will become lawyers, 19 some legislators and doctors and teachers and 20 some people will become artists. 21 Over 1.53 million people in 22 this country are artists, and the whole 23 industry contributes about 6 percent to our 24 gross national product, and if we did not have 25 the arts in New York City, if we didn't have 1 all the associated trades and businesses 2 working with the arts, we would have an 3 economy that's dwindling. 4 So let's support it. It may 5 not -- you may not see the correlation between 6 the introduction of art in our high schools 7 and what happens in our economy, but the link 8 is there. Let's nourish it; let's invest in 9 it. Art is not a luxury; it's something we 10 need to do for our economy, for our 11 communities and for our young people. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 13 Thank you, Senator Abate. 14 Senator Leichter, please. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr. 16 President, I guess just about anything that 17 can be said about this bill and probably more 18 has been said, but since Senator Velella likes 19 to bring what I call his "quonset hut" bill up 20 before this body, I think it's fair to point 21 out some additional things about it. 22 First of all, Senator, I agree 23 with the statement that you made to Senator 24 Abate, although I think you misconstrued what 25 she said about that appreciation of art 1 doesn't really reflect the neighborhood or 2 your wealth or your background and I think you 3 proved that very well by your comments on art. 4 Senator, I'm going to wait 5 until you - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 7 Senator Leichter. Senator Leichter. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. Yeah. 9 But as I said, I think you just proved the 10 point that you made that the fact that you 11 have no appreciation of art doesn't relate to 12 your community or neighborhood or your 13 background, but Senator, I think Senator 14 Paterson, you know, his idea about our pooling 15 our money and trying to find that artist, I 16 don't agree with that, but I'm going to 17 propose that we pool our money and send you to 18 an art appreciation course and let me -- let 19 me say with all due respect, Senator, I have 20 not heard such misanthropic and negative view 21 of the arts since Eddie Mason tried to - 22 Senator Ed Mason got up and he wanted to 23 eliminate all the funding for the Council of 24 the Arts, and Al Lewis, Senator Al Lewis, got 25 up and said, Senator Mason, if you were the 1 Pope at the time that the Sistine Chapel were 2 built, you would have sent Michelangelo out to 3 do it with a drop cloth and a roller. 4 Senator, I wish you - 5 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 6 Senator Leichter. Senator Leichter, could I 7 interrupt for just one second. Could we please 8 have some order in the chamber. Would you 9 please keep the conversations quiet, please. 10 Thank you, Senator Leichter. 11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I'd 12 be delighted to go to that school that you 13 mentioned with the art work that so offends 14 you and I must say that the works of art that 15 I look at, mainly modern art and I 16 occasionally have some difficulty in 17 understanding it but I try to be broadminded 18 enough and to appreciate that art has 19 different -- attracts people in different 20 ways, and states different things, but what 21 your bill does, you couldn't even have a 22 picture of George Washington. If somebody 23 wanted to say, I want to have a picture of 24 George Washington, I'm going to spend some 25 money that's up to that one percent that the 1 law presently allows, can't do it, not -- not 2 under Senator Velella's bill. No art. Don't 3 show a picture of Washington. You want to show 4 one of these great pictures of the signing of 5 the Declaration of Independence, no, can't do 6 it under Senator Velella's quonset hut bill. 7 Just bare walls and the basic rudiments. 8 Senator, you've set up a false 9 choice. The choice isn't between having roofs 10 that don't leak or art. The fact is that we 11 need to have both. Art is an integral part of 12 education, and the learning environment, the 13 ambience in which students learn is terribly 14 important, if they're going to, in fact, be 15 reached by the educational system. 16 Quonset huts don't produce good 17 learning, Senator. We do need the arts. We do 18 need to provide the proper environment and 19 conditions for students to appreciate, and art 20 is certainly part of it. 21 So yes, we need money to 22 construct schools properly and we need money 23 to repair our schools and we also need money, 24 a very small amount, a very, very small amount 25 of the sums that we're spending on 1 construction to see that the schools are 2 attractive. That's all that we're saying. 3 May not always be a mobile hanging that 4 Senator Velella doesn't appreciate or like, it 5 could be, as I said, a picture of George 6 Washington, but it's something that makes the 7 school more conducive for the student to 8 appreciate, and that's really what we're 9 talking about. 10 Let me just make a suggestion 11 for you, Senator, because you put this false 12 choice before us. Well, it's either money for 13 construction or money for art. It isn't. If 14 you could convince your Conference to stop 15 cheating the city of New York on school funds, 16 then maybe, as Senator Gold said, we wouldn't 17 have to make this sort of a Hobson's choice 18 which you're trying to put before us. 19 Senator, I really think your 20 bill does not advance education in this 21 state. It means that we're going to have 22 barren, sterile schools, that education will 23 be hindered and hampered. But Senator, maybe 24 after you take that arts appreciation course, 25 you'll be back next year and you'll agree with 1 me there is a place in the school for arts. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 3 Thank you, Senator Leichter. 4 Senator Marcellino. 5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 6 Mr. President. 7 We've debated this bill every 8 year since I've been in this chamber and maybe 9 I'm confused. I've heard these arguments 10 before, we're cutting money for art. We're 11 cutting out art appreciation. We can have no 12 aesthetics in schools unless we spend at least 13 one percent of school construction money on 14 art work. 15 I have heard the term "unfunded 16 mandates". How about an unfunded -- how about 17 a funded ripoff. When we say we're going to 18 put money into schools to have school 19 construction and it doesn't go to 20 construction, it goes to someone buying 21 pictures for walls. 22 Senator Leichter, what about 23 aesthetically designing a school to be a nice 24 place, to be an attractive environment instead 25 of some barren institutional building. What 1 about the architect and the engineer who 2 design it? Can we not make it architecturally 3 pleasing to be in? Does it have to have 4 paintings on the wall to be a pleasing place? 5 Let's think beyond the box. Let's think out 6 the issue more clearly. 7 I'm hearing a debate here which 8 is really just plain silly. There is nothing 9 that I know -- well, let me ask the question. 10 Senator Velella, would you yield to a question 11 please? 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 13 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Are you 14 opposed to spending money on art in schools? 15 SENATOR VELELLA: Absolutely 16 not. This bill doesn't do that. It makes it 17 optional. 18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Let's just 19 qualify that again. Does your bill prevent the 20 city of New York from spending money on art 21 work in schools? 22 SENATOR VELELLA: No, it does 23 not. 24 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Pardon 25 me. Say that one more time. Senator Gold, 1 kind of overlooked, I'm sure - 2 SENATOR VELELLA: I will repeat 3 that answer because there are minds that are a 4 little more dense and set in their ways than 5 we have on this side of the aisle. No, it does 6 not prevent that spending. 7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Does your 8 bill, Senator, if you will yield to another 9 question. Does your bill, through you, Mr. 10 President, in any way cut any money for art 11 programs in the schools? 12 SENATOR VELELLA: No, it does 13 not. 14 SENATOR MARCELLINO: What are 15 we arguing about, ladies and gentlemen? Let's 16 put more money into new school construction. 17 Let's build better schools for the city of New 18 York. Let's build more schools for the city of 19 New York, and let's let them spend their money 20 on as much -- as much of their money on art as 21 they want in consultation with community 22 school districts and community school boards 23 rather than doing a mandate from Albany that 24 you must spend X millions of dollars on art 25 when it isn't wanted in a lot of districts. 1 They could do it better, they could do it more 2 properly and more appropriately themselves. 3 You keep talking about 4 mandating it from up here. This is exactly 5 what you're doing. You're telling the people 6 in the City, This is what you will do. Why 7 can't we say, What do you want to do? Here's 8 the money. What do you want to do with it? 9 Go get them. Let's build better schools, let's 10 build more schools. Let's not waste any more 11 time. Pass this bill. 12 I vote aye. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 14 Thank you, Senator Marcellino. 15 Read the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 17 This act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Call 19 the roll. 20 (The Secretary called the 21 roll.) 22 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 24 Senator Gold, to explain his vote. 25 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, I just want 1 to say, firstly, just a personal plea from me 2 to you. After this debate, I hope you're not 3 going to follow your instinct and run right 4 back to the Assembly. Give us a few more days 5 and a few more opportunities before you judge 6 us; and secondly I'd like to say that while I 7 agree that most youngsters starting school are 8 not seeing art for the first time obviously, 9 Senator, the biggest problem I see is they 10 come from a family and they've seen Rembrandt; 11 they've seen a Van Gogh. Maybe now, all of a 12 sudden they are seeing Picasso and others, so 13 it's a question of opening minds; but maybe, 14 maybe a kid walks in who feels exactly like 15 you. He sees those hangers or whatever, and 16 he says, That's art? I could do that, I could 17 do better than that, and maybe now you've 18 inspired a new artist who doesn't say, as you 19 have, I don't agree with it, we'll never have 20 art again in the world. It's a waste of 21 money. 22 Maybe they are a little Velella 23 walking around, saying, I could do that and 24 that's a good profession; I could do better 25 than that. So, Senator, the bottom line of 1 all this, the amount of money is infinitesimal 2 compared to to what we get out of it. I agree 3 with all that's been said in opposition to 4 this bill, but I do thank you for giving us an 5 opportunity to fill the day in these early 6 days of session with these old chestnuts. 7 I vote no. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 9 Senator Gold in the negative. 10 Senator Paterson to explain his 11 vote. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 13 Mr. President. 14 SENATOR VELELLA: Could you 15 briefly interrupt and withdraw the roll call. 16 Senator Goodman has an announcement that he'd 17 like to make, if you would just withdraw the 18 roll call for a moment and recognize Senator 19 Goodman. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Roll 21 call is withdrawn. 22 SENATOR GOODMAN: Senator 23 Velella, it's my great privilege and pleasure, 24 ladies and gentlemen, to introduce to you 25 today Miss America 1998. Her name is Kate 1 Shindle. She's seated in the front of our 2 chamber. 3 Miss America Shindle travels 4 20,000 miles a month on a national speaking 5 tour entitled "On the Way to a Cure Preventing 6 HIV Transmission in America." During her year 7 of service she's choosing to direct the Miss 8 America spotlight away from herself and toward 9 the critical need for HIV prevention. 10 Prior to becoming Miss America, 11 Kate was a senior Theater and Sociology major 12 at Northwestern University in Illinois, where 13 she volunteered for the Chicago Test Positive 14 Aware Network. She's recently named honorary 15 board member of the AIDS Policy Center for 16 Children, Youth and Families. She's also been 17 honored by the Ryan White Foundation and the 18 Oleander Foundation as America's role model in 19 1998 for her tireless work in the area of HIV 20 AIDS. 21 Since launching her nationwide 22 initiative from Capitol Hill last fall, Kate 23 has been criss-crossing the country educating 24 and enlightening diverse audiences in the need 25 to fight the spread of this deadly epidemic. 1 I know that the entire chamber 2 will join me in extending a warm Senate 3 welcome to a young American, a lady of 4 idealism and practical involvement in one of 5 the worst problems, a great and distinguished 6 American, Miss America, Kate Shindle. 7 (Applause) 8 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 9 Thank you, Senator Goodman. Without 10 objection, the Senate recognizes Miss 11 America. 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Continue the 13 roll call. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 15 Thank you. Please return to the roll call. 16 Senator Paterson, did you 17 conclude your remarks concerning your vote? 18 SENATOR PATERSON: No. 19 Actually, Mr. President, I hadn't started. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 21 Senator Paterson, to explain his vote. 22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 23 President, just briefly. Senator Marcellino, 24 I think, refocused us on what the discussion 25 was. It didn't have to do with art programs; 1 he's absolutely right, but inadvertently he 2 touched on what I think is really the argument 3 against this bill. 4 The option of the School 5 Construction Authority to still have that 6 amenity of aesthetics in the construction of 7 the school buildings can still be violated and 8 abused as much as it was in the case that we 9 would all deplore that was brought to our 10 attention by Senator Velella. 11 What we are simply saying is 12 that you cannot put a really numerical value 13 or financial quotient on what proportion of 14 the art work or of the construction should be 15 dedicated to art work, but that it should be 16 something, even as slight as one percent, 17 because even though it adds up to a lot of 18 money, that's still one percent of a greater 19 amount of money and that that percentage 20 reflects some priority that we're giving to 21 the value of children learning in an 22 environment that has some -- has some 23 aesthetic. 24 Certainly we can't ask children 25 to have an appreciation for art if they're 1 learning it in a place that has absolutely no 2 aesthetic value to it, and what young people 3 may or may not have seen before they come to 4 school or what types of neighborhoods from 5 which they are indigenous really isn't at 6 issue here. 7 What's at issue is what we're 8 trying to show them in our conduct as adults. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 10 Thank you, Senator Paterson. How do you vote? 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, I'm 12 sorry, Mr. President. I vote no. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 14 Thank you. Senator Paterson in the negative. 15 Senator Oppenheimer to explain 16 her vote. 17 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: One thing 18 that I believe we can say on behalf of the art 19 work, even the one you detest, you should have 20 knocked down the one you detest, but -- it's 21 not that; I didn't say that. But I think the 22 difference between the art work and the 23 building is that this art work will not fall 24 apart. It will be there for as long as the 25 building is there and can be transferred 1 elsewhere. This is an enduring thing. 2 The maintenance seems to me to 3 be quite a separate issue from the 4 construction cost in which this art work, 5 whatever the art work is involved. Further, I 6 would say we were talking now about some of 7 the beautiful spots, the cities in our 8 country, and I commented on the beauty of 9 Chicago, which has as part of their 10 requirement sidewalk art of distinction, so 11 that you walk around in what would otherwise 12 be a concrete cold environment and you see 13 things of beauty as you walk around, and I 14 think the same thing with schools, the things 15 of beauty will remain, and I wasn't referring 16 before just to the teaching of art. It has to 17 be the experience of seeing beautiful art, and 18 that does enhance a child's education. 19 I'm voting no. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 21 Thank you, Senator. 22 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded 23 in the negative on Calendar 110 Senators 24 Abate, Connor, Gold, Leichter, Markowitz, 25 Mendez, Montgomery, Oppenheimer, Paterson, 1 Sampson, Santiago, Seabrook, Smith and 2 Stavisky. Ayes 44, nays 14. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: The 4 bill is passed. 5 Senator Velella. 6 SENATOR VELELLA: Mr. 7 President, on behalf of Senator Bruno, in 8 consultation with the Minority Leader, I hand 9 up the following minority committee assignment 10 changes and ask that they be filed in the 11 Journal. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 13 Notice will be filed in the Journal. 14 Senator Velella. 15 SENATOR VELELLA: Is there any 16 housekeeping? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: Yes, 18 there is. 19 Senator Volker. 20 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 21 on page 13, I offer the following amendments 22 to Calendar Number 150, Senate Print 5691, and 23 ask that that bill retain its place on the 24 Third Reading Calendar. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 1 Amendments received and the bill will retain 2 its place on the Third Reading Calendar. 3 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. 4 President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 6 Senator Volker. 7 SENATOR VOLKER: I have another 8 one. On page 4, I offer the following 9 amendments to Calendar Number 21, Senate Print 10 3407, and ask that said bill retain its place 11 on the Third Reading Calendar. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 13 Amendments are received and the bill will 14 retain its place on the Third Reading 15 Calendar. 16 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 17 on behalf of Senator Larkin, on page 12 I 18 offer the following amendments to Calendar 19 Number 130, Senate Print 2305, and ask that 20 said bill retain its place on the Third 21 Reading Calendar. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: 23 Amendments are received and the bill will 24 retain its place on the Third Reading 25 Calendar. 1 Thank you, Senator Volker. 2 Senator Velella. 3 SENATOR VELELLA: Mr. 4 President, any other further housekeeping? 5 There being no further business, I move we 6 adjourn until Monday, February 2nd, at 3:00 7 p.m., intervening days to be legislative 8 days. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT BALBONI: On 10 motion, the Senate stands adjourned until 11 Monday, February 2nd, at 3:00 p.m., 12 intervening days being legislative days. 13 (Whereupon at 2:18 p.m., the 14 Senate adjourned.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25