Monday, March 2, 1998

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 March 2, 1998 11 3:03 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President 19 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 P R O C E E D I N G S. 2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will 3 come to order. Would you please all rise and 4 join with me in the Pledge of Allegiance. 5 (The assemblage repeated the 6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 7 The invocation today will be 8 given by Pastor Iris Tucker from the Flatbush 9 Church of the Redeemer, in Brooklyn. 10 Welcome, Pastor Tucker. 11 PASTOR IRIS TUCKER: Almighty 12 wise God, we come before You this afternoon 13 invoking Your power and Spirit and Your 14 peace. We come asking You to fill these 15 Senators with wisdom, patience and the 16 understandings of the constituents that they 17 serve, so that they might look at issues of 18 social justice and keep them ever so mindful 19 in Your heart and in Your head. God, we come 20 asking You this in the name and the power and 21 the presence of Jesus Christ. Amen. 22 THE PRESIDENT: Amen. 23 Senator Bruno? The reading of 24 the Journal, please. 25 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 1 Friday, February 27th. The Senate met 2 pursuant to adjournment. The Journal of 3 Thursday, February 26th, was read and 4 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 5 THE PRESIDENT: Without 6 objection, the Journal stands approved as 7 read. 8 Presentation of petitions. 9 Messages from the Assembly. 10 Messages from the Governor. 11 Reports of standing 12 committees. 13 Reports of select committees. 14 Communications and reports from 15 state officers. 16 Motions and resolutions. 17 Senator Marcellino. 18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 19 Madam President. We have a few motions here. 20 On behalf of Senator Saland, 21 Madam President, on page number 16, I offer 22 the following amendments to Calendar Number 23 264, Senate Print Number 680-A, and ask that 24 said bill retain its place on the Third 25 Reading Calendar. 1 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments 2 received. 3 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 4 Madam President. 5 On the -- on page number 14, on 6 behalf of Senator LaValle, I offer the 7 following amendments to Calendar Number 247, 8 Senate Print Number 2597, and ask that said 9 bill retain its place on the Third Reading 10 Calendar. 11 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments 12 received. 13 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 14 Madam President. 15 On behalf of Senator Leibell, 16 on page number 14, I offer the following 17 amendments to Calendar Number 242, Senate 18 Print Number 3930, and ask that said bill 19 retain its place on the Third Reading 20 Calendar. 21 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments 22 received. 23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 24 Madam President. 25 On behalf of Senator Meier, on 1 page number 16, I offer the following 2 amendments to Calendar Number 265, Senate 3 Print Number 2588, and ask that said bill 4 retain its place on the Third Reading 5 Calendar. 6 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments 7 received. 8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 9 Madam President. 10 On behalf of Senator Larkin, on 11 page number 16, I offer the following 12 amendments to Calendar Number 271, Senate 13 Print Number 2012, and ask that the bill 14 retain its place on the Third Reading 15 Calendar. 16 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments are 17 received. 18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam 19 President, I move the following bills be 20 discharged from their respective committees 21 and be recommitted with instructions to strike 22 the enacting clause, and that would be Senate 23 Numbers 1713, 1716, 1852, 3760-A, 4267, 4984, 24 4985, 4987, 4988, 4990, 5123, that's on behalf 25 of Senator Maziarz, and on behalf of Senator 1 Kuhl, same request, 4334. 2 THE PRESIDENT: So ordered. 3 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 4 Madam President. 5 The Secretary will read one 6 substitution. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 DeFrancisco moves to discharge from the 9 Committee on Commerce, Economic Development 10 and Small Business Assembly Print 1216-B and 11 substitute it for the identical Senate bill 12 4349-A. 13 THE PRESIDENT: Substitution 14 ordered. 15 Senator Bruno. 16 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam 17 President, may we at this time stand at ease 18 in the chamber. I think we have some 19 important work to do, if you will all sort of 20 face that way. O.K. 21 THE PRESIDENT: Stand at ease. 22 (The Senate stood at ease from 23 3:09 to 3:15 p.m.) 24 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno. 25 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam 1 President, while we are being organized, I 2 would recommend that we go to the 3 non-controversial calendar. 4 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 5 will read. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 81, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 2469-A, 8 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 9 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 10 section, please. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it 12 aside. 13 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 101, by Senator Volker, Senate Print Number 16 5007, an act to amend the Criminal Procedure 17 Law. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it 19 aside, please. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 107, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print Number 23 3646, an act to amend the Public Authorities 24 Law. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it 1 aside, please. 2 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 127, by Senator Present, Senate Print 532, an 5 act to amend the General Municipal Law. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay that 7 aside. 8 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 151, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 355-A, 11 an act to amend the General City Law. 12 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside 13 for the day. 14 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside. 15 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside for 16 the day? 17 THE PRESIDENT: Yes. 18 SENATOR GOLD: That's for the 19 day. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Yes. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 161, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 1499, an 23 act to amend the Public Health Law. 24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay that 25 aside. 1 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside, 2 please. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 187, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print Number 5 4834-D, an act to amend the - 6 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside 7 for the day. 8 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside 9 for the day, please. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 209, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 150, an 12 act to amend the Environmental Conservation 13 Law. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it 15 aside, please. 16 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside, 17 please. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 210, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 389, an 20 act to amend the Environmental Conservation 21 Law. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it 23 aside. 24 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside, 25 please. 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 219, by Senator Wright, Senate Print Number 3 3890, an act to amend the County Law. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it 5 aside. 6 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside, 7 please. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 220, by Senator Cook, Senate Print Number 10 4647, an act to amend the Town Law. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay that 12 one aside too, please. 13 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside, 14 please. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 231, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print Number 17 1977, an act to amend the Penal Law. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay that 19 aside. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside, 21 please. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 274, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 2729. 24 SENATOR COOK: Lay it aside for 25 the day. 1 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside 2 for the day, please. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 276, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 5390, an 5 act to amend the General Municipal Law. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it 7 aside. 8 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 278, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 6250, an 11 act in regard to filing applications. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it 13 aside. 14 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside, 15 please. 16 Senator Bruno, that completes 17 the non-controversial reading of the 18 calendar. 19 Senator Bruno, we have a motion 20 at the desk. 21 SENATOR BRUNO: Take it up, 22 please. 23 THE PRESIDENT: We'll return to 24 motions and resolutions. The Secretary will 25 read. Oh, Senator Marcellino. 1 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 2 Madam President. 3 I appreciate the motion. On 4 page -- on behalf of Senator Libous, on page 5 number 21, I offer the following amendments to 6 Calendar Number 1, Senate Print Number 1122, 7 and ask that said bill retain its place on the 8 Third Reading Calendar. 9 THE PRESIDENT: So ordered. 10 Senator Bruno. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam 12 President, it appears that we are progressing 13 slowly. I would like to at this time take up 14 Calendar Number 278 until we are ready and 15 then we will take a short recess, but if we 16 can start the deliberation and the debate on 17 Calendar 278. 18 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 19 will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 278, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 6250, an 22 act to extend the period for filing 23 applications for real property disability 24 exemption. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: 1 Explanation. 2 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 3 Dollinger has requested an explanation. 4 Senator Rath. 5 SENATOR RATH: Thank you, Madam 6 Chairman. 7 Senator Dollinger, my 8 colleagues, this is a remedy to a problem that 9 has - 10 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mike's not 11 on. Got the wrong desk. 12 SENATOR RATH: In July 1997 13 legislation was enacted authorizing tax units 14 to provide, by local law, disability real 15 property tax exemption. The law took effect in 16 January 1998. Applications for disability 17 exemption could not be accepted until after - 18 accepted, pardon me, until the taxing units 19 opted in and could not be accepted beyond the 20 taxing units' taxable status date. 21 A problem surfaced in that at 22 least one taxing unit did not opt in until 23 after the taxable status date, thus precluding 24 multiple disabled persons from benefiting from 25 the 1998-99 exemption. The purpose of this 1 bill is to remedy that problem whereby, 2 because of early taxable status dates there 3 was insufficient time in which to receive 4 applications for the 1998-99 disability 5 exemption. 6 Accordingly, this legislation 7 authorizing -- authorizes taxing units who had 8 opted in and who had taxable status dates 9 prior to March 1st, 1998 to opt to extend the 10 date for filing applications for the exemption 11 to March 15, 1998. Eligibility, however, 12 would be based on the taxable status date. 13 Corresponding with this piece 14 of legislation that many of us have been 15 talking about in relation to the STAR program 16 the above was brought to our attention and 17 when that particular piece surfaced, it was 18 appropriate that the other part come along 19 with it, and this provides this corresponding 20 exemption made to extend the timetable for the 21 appeals process. 22 The assessing unit would 23 establish a date by which the assessing of tax 24 on the application, a date on which the board 25 of assessment would review and convene for 1 hearing complaints on denial of these 2 applications and a date by which the board of 3 assessment review is required to act. If the 4 assessment roll is completed and filed prior 5 to the date of the assessment review, the 6 taxing units may enter such exemption on the 7 final 1998 assessment roll until May 15, 8 1998. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Madam 10 President, may I ask a question? 11 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 12 Dollinger. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: A question 14 of the sponsor. 15 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath. 16 SENATOR RATH: Surely. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Does this 18 bill deal with the particular problem created 19 in the city of Rochester and Monroe County 20 with respect to the tax -- the tax status date 21 that occurred for the disability exemption in 22 the city of Rochester? 23 SENATOR RATH: Yes, Senator, it 24 does and it was brought to our attention that 25 there was a circumstance wherein the taxing 1 jurisdiction had not opted in and because of 2 that, we sent them a message. This bill will 3 provide for that. I believe the deadline date 4 is the 15th of March for that, so it's timely 5 that we do this very quickly. 6 The other -- the other piece 7 was part of the examination of the kinds of 8 things we were into, not only we are but again 9 with the assessment unit; so yes, Rochester is 10 taken care of. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 12 you, Madam President, if the sponsor would 13 continue to yield. 14 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath, 15 would you continue to yield? 16 SENATOR RATH: Sure. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Who brought 18 it to your attention, Senator Rath? 19 SENATOR RATH: There were 20 several people brought it to our attention, 21 Senator Dollinger being one of them, and to 22 move back a little bit from this juncture 23 where we are today, when it was brought to our 24 attention, it was quickly recognized that it 25 not only covered Rochester but it also covered 1 the rest of the state, and the bill and the 2 situation that was brought to our attention 3 covered the Monroe County area that you 4 represent, and we thought it was important 5 that the residents have the exemption. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, 7 through you, Madam President, do you know 8 whether the city of Rochester or Monroe County 9 support the portion of this bill that deals 10 specifically with Rochester and Monroe County? 11 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Any 13 evidence from them that they support this 14 bill? 15 SENATOR RATH: I do. There was 16 a resolution by the County Legislature, I 17 believe it was. I had called for the bill - 18 for the folder to come over inasmuch as we are 19 a little bit out of order in the timing of 20 this, but I believe it was the Monroe County 21 Legislature that I looked at. 22 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 23 Dollinger. 24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 25 you, Madam President. 1 SENATOR RATH: Sure. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Isn't it 3 the case that the county of Monroe did approve 4 a resolution for another bill that's sitting 5 in the Local Government Committee that 6 specifically addresses the situation for 7 Monroe County? 8 SENATOR RATH: I'm sorry, I 9 didn't understand your question. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 11 through you, Madam President, there was a 12 memorandum of approval by the Monroe County 13 Legislature signed by, I believe, 26 of the 29 14 members, but I think that related to another 15 bill and not to this specific bill; is that 16 not correct? 17 SENATOR RATH: That's not my 18 understanding. My understanding was that that 19 resolution from the Monroe County Legislature 20 was in regards to this bill. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My 22 understanding is, again through you, Madam 23 President, that that relates to 6030 and not 24 to this bill, which is 6250. I just ask you 25 if you could produce that document for me. I 1 feel perhaps it would enable me to better vote 2 on this, but my understanding is that there's 3 no evidence from Monroe County in support of 4 this bill, and I'd ask through you, Madam 5 President, is there any indication from the 6 city of Rochester that they support this bill, 7 6250? 8 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath. 9 SENATOR RATH: Madam President, 10 this bill is a different bill number because 11 what we're talking about was a stand alone 12 bill only dealing with the exemption for the 13 disabled. This is a bill that has several 14 facets to it. I think that's the difference 15 in the number. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 17 through you, Madam President. 18 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 19 Dollinger. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I 21 understand that this has different aspects to 22 it. It has a statewide ramification in 23 addition to the local ramification for the 24 county of Monroe and the city of Rochester. 25 My question is, through you, Madam President, 1 do you have any indication from the city of 2 Rochester that this is the bill that they want 3 passed in order to solve the problem of 4 disability tax exemptions on the tax eligible 5 status date for people in the city of 6 Rochester? 7 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath. 8 SENATOR RATH: The piece that 9 came through from the County Legislature was 10 clear about the intent. I have no concern 11 that this bill is in any way, shape or form 12 not addressing the intent of the Monroe County 13 Legislature. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 15 through you, Madam President. 16 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 17 Dollinger. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Do you have 19 any indication that the city of Rochester, 20 which is where the people who have disability, 21 who applied for the tax exemption, where they 22 are and how they would be affected? Do you 23 have any indication from the city of Rochester 24 -- of which I represent 75 percent, Senator 25 Alesi represents the other 25 percent -- that 1 they support this bill as a solution to their 2 problem? 3 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath. 4 SENATOR RATH: The bill was 5 presented approximately a week ago and I know 6 how diligently the Rochester representative 7 works with their constituency. If they had a 8 problem with this bill, I'm sure they would 9 have gotten hold of me immediately if they 10 have a problem, but if you have a problem, I 11 suggest you vote no. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, 13 again, through you, Madam President. 14 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 15 Dollinger. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: We have no 17 indication as you sit here today that the city 18 of Rochester supports this bill; is that 19 correct? 20 SENATOR RATH: The bill has 21 provisions that they did support in another 22 bill. It basically -- they are basically the 23 same provisions and, if you are interested in 24 hearing the assessing units which had the 25 taxing status date before March 1st, they're 1 Syracuse, Buffalo, New York City, Rochester, 2 Yonkers, Auburn, Watertown, Amsterdam, Oswego, 3 Hornell, Bronxville, Lackawanna, Niagara 4 Falls, White Plains and Nassau County. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 6 through you, Madam President. 7 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 8 Dollinger. 9 A little order in the chamber, 10 please. 11 Senator Dollinger. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 13 through you, Madam President, my under 14 standing that the reference in the sponsor's 15 memo specifically occurred in the city of 16 Rochester; is that correct? 17 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath. 18 SENATOR RATH: The -- pardon me 19 again. Say that again, Senator. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The 21 sponsor's memo for the passage of this bill 22 which was drafted, I assume by you since 23 you're the author of this bill, Senator, 24 specifically refers to the problem in Monroe 25 County and the city of Rochester; isn't that 1 correct? 2 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath. 3 SENATOR RATH: Rochester is the 4 only jurisdiction that has raised the issue at 5 this point, and we wanted to make it very 6 clear to the Rochester representatives that we 7 were certainly looking out for their best 8 interests. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. 10 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 11 Dollinger. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 13 through you, Madam President, if you're 14 looking out for the city of Rochester's best 15 interests, why doesn't the city of Rochester 16 have a memorandum in support of this bill in 17 their file or some evidence from the city of 18 Rochester that this solves the problem that 19 they saw? 20 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath. 21 SENATOR RATH: Senator, you 22 represent the city of Rochester, I assume, 23 which is what your great interest is, you're 24 not just a Monroe County legislator. I would 25 assume, as I said, if you have a problem with 1 this bill we would need to see a memorandum on 2 that. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator - 4 through you, Madam President. 5 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 6 Dollinger. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: This isn't 8 the question I asked, Senator. The question I 9 asked is, do you have any written evidence 10 that this is the bill that the city says 11 solves the problem, this bill 6250, not 6030 12 A, drafted by some other Senator in this 13 house, but does your bill 6250 -- is that what 14 they want to solve their problem? 15 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath. 16 SENATOR RATH: We have -- I 17 have been advised by counsel that we have 18 talked with the representatives of the city of 19 Rochester, and this bill is fine with them as 20 we move forward. I understand it's been 21 introduced in the Assembly, and there is no 22 problem with this bill. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 24 through you, Madam President. 25 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 1 Dollinger. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: If I could, 3 I'm just trying to find out, Senator, this is 4 an issue that I actually have been involved 5 in. I know Senator Alesi there and I'm trying 6 to simply find out, I know there was a prior 7 bill drafted by someone in this house, sent to 8 the Monroe County Legislature, was endorsed by 9 the Monroe County Legislature. I know that 10 there was this -- another bill sent to the 11 City Council which we got a memorandum 12 approved by a letter signed by the mayor, the 13 president of the City Council saying that that 14 bill solved the problem. 15 My question is, if that other 16 bill solved the problem, I'd like to know that 17 this bill also solves the problem. Do you 18 have any written evidence from either one of 19 those governmental entities that I represent, 20 that this bill solves the problem? 21 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath. 22 SENATOR RATH: If you will wait 23 just one minute. I may have it in my folder 24 which is under the desk because I assumed we 25 were going to do photographs first. 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My 2 pleasure. 3 SENATOR RATH: Through you, 4 Madam President. 5 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath. 6 SENATOR RATH: The letterhead 7 that I thought I had carried into the chamber 8 with me, unfortunately, is not here. It's my 9 recollection that it was the Monroe County 10 Legislature, and I'm advised by counsel that 11 there is no negative -- there has been no 12 negative memorandums or comments that have 13 come from the city of Rochester and 14 representative Gantt introduced this same 15 legislation, so I'm very comfortable with it. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 17 through you. 18 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 19 Dollinger. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just so I 21 understand it there's no written approval of 22 either the city of Rochester or the county of 23 Monroe for this bill? 24 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath. 25 SENATOR RATH: It is not in my 1 possession in the chamber right now, but I 2 would assume you received the same thing I 3 received. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I don't 5 know -- I don't know what you've received, 6 Senator. I'm trying to figure out. I received 7 some things. You obviously must have received 8 something different. I'm trying to find out 9 what the difference is in what I received in 10 support of another bill and what you received 11 in support of this bill. 12 Madam President, I'd simply ask 13 that the bill be laid aside until perhaps 14 later in the session today. Maybe we can work 15 out what it is that the city of Rochester has 16 given you, the county of Monroe has given you, 17 that they have not given me in support of bill 18 6250. 19 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm simply 21 asking that it be laid aside temporarily until 22 that information is provided, since I 23 represent Monroe County and most of the city 24 of Rochester. I'd like to see that 25 information. 1 SENATOR RATH: Through you, 2 Madam President. 3 The bill that you presented, 4 Senator Dollinger, was a bill that was at 5 local option. This is -- this bill is making 6 it mandatory, so I don't -- as I grasp that by 7 this bill we were making it a better bill and 8 also the February 5th date was erroneous 9 because it had gone past as we were attempting 10 to include a number of things in the bill that 11 were very, very necessary, not only for your 12 jurisdiction and Monroe County's concerns but 13 for all across the state. 14 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 15 Dollinger. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Madam 17 President, I would simply ask that the bill be 18 laid aside for - 19 THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead, 20 sorry. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Simply ask 22 the sponsor to lay the bill aside temporarily 23 and allow me to get information that 24 apparently the sponsor has that I don't have 25 with respect to the approval of this bill 1 either by the city of Rochester or the county 2 of Monroe. Is that unreasonable, Madam 3 President? 4 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath. 5 SENATOR RATH: Senator 6 Dollinger, my clear recollection -- and I 7 looked at it within the last few hours; I'm 8 sorry, I don't have it with me -- this bill is 9 fine with the city of Rochester. 10 Thank you. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Will the 12 sponsor just continue to yield? 13 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath, 14 will you continue to yield? 15 SENATOR RATH: One more 16 question. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The taxable 18 status date in your bill, the March 15th date 19 that apparently is selected in this bill, do 20 you have any specific approval from the county 21 of Monroe or the city of Rochester with 22 respect to the practical nature of that 23 specific date in the bill, whether that date 24 is acceptable or given the late date that 25 we're acting on, that April 1st would be a 1 better date? 2 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath. 3 SENATOR RATH: The March 15th 4 date was discussed with the city of Rochester 5 officials earlier today by Majority Counsel 6 and advised that March 15th was fine. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But you 8 have nothing in writing to that effect. 9 SENATOR RATH: I have nothing 10 in writing. 11 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 12 Dollinger. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the 14 bill, Madam President. 15 THE PRESIDENT: Proceed. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I believe 17 it's somewhat unfortunate that we're in this 18 position today talking about a bill that 19 should do something for Monroe County, may do 20 something for Monroe County, may do something 21 for the people of the city of Rochester, 75 22 percent of whom I represent those people in 23 the city of Rochester who would benefit from 24 this bill, and yet there was another bill 25 introduced at an earlier time, much earlier 1 time, more than a month ago which the issue 2 was raised, put on the table. 3 I came to Senator Rath, other 4 people in this chamber, said, Let's pass this 5 bill, let's do it. Let's do it so we have a 6 March 1st deadline. Let's get it done in 7 February, so that we give the disabled people 8 in the city of Rochester lots of time. There 9 are about 880 of them who would benefit. There 10 were loopholes in the law that we had to 11 correct, something we had to fill. 12 I worked with it, sent a copy 13 to Senator Alesi, who represents the city with 14 me, sent a copy to Senator Rath. I worked hard 15 to put the bill together. I sent the bill to 16 the County Legislature. I sent it to the city 17 of Rochester. The County Legislature said 18 it's a great idea, we want to see the city 19 people benefit from the disability exemption. 20 We approve your bill, Senator Dollinger. 26, 21 I believe, of the 29 members signed the bill, 22 a letter in support of that bill. That's the 23 letter that Senator Rath is referring to. 24 Sure enough, then the city of 25 Rochester weighs it; my bill is circulated to 1 the city of Rochester. The mayor and the 2 president of the City Council sign a letter 3 that says, the Dollinger bill, we can go with 4 that; that's fine. I tried to get the members 5 of this house to put that bill through, to 6 prevent -- to protect the citizens of my 7 district. 8 Then what happens? All of a 9 sudden this new bill appears. This new bill 10 appears. I'm willing -- my bill doesn't have 11 to pass but you would think that someone who 12 represents 75 percent of the people who are 13 affected, who did all the work, laid all the 14 foundation, would, as a matter of courtesy - 15 simple, simple courtesy -- be included on the 16 bill, that simple courtesy would say include 17 someone on the bill. 18 No, doesn't exist here in the 19 state Senate. Now we're going to pass a bill, 20 we don't have any evidence it's supported by 21 the county, don't have any evidence that this 22 bill is supported by the city. And what 23 rules, in my judgment? Nothing but cheap 24 partisan politics. I think everybody ought to 25 be ashamed. 1 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 2 section, please. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. 4 This act shall take effect immediately. 5 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 6 (The Secretary called the 7 roll. ) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 9 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 10 passed. 11 Senator Bruno. 12 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam 13 President, can we at this time once again 14 stand at ease. Thank you. 15 I would recommend that the 16 members get in their regular seats, and you 17 might want to then follow the direction of the 18 photographer on the platform. 19 THE PRESIDENT: Would the 20 members please clear their desks for the 21 purpose of making a nice picture. 22 (The Senate stood at ease at 23 3:37 p.m.) 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 25 Senate will come to order. Ask the members to 1 take their seats, please, the staff to take 2 their places. 3 Senator Skelos. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 5 before we start and continue with the 6 controversial calendar, there will be an 7 immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in 8 the Majority Conference Room. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 10 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules 11 Committee, an immediate meeting of the Rules 12 Committee in Room 332, the Majority Conference 13 Room. 14 Senator Holland. 15 SENATOR HOLLAND: We will 16 return to the controversial calendar, regular 17 order, starting with Calendar Number 81, 18 please, Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 Secretary will read the controversial 21 calendar. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 81, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 2469-A, 24 an act to amend the Social Services Law. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: 1 Explanation, please. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Maltese, an explanation of Calendar Number 81 4 has been requested by Senator Dollinger. 5 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. 6 President, this is an act to amend the Social 7 Services Law in relation to access to criminal 8 history records by the Department of Health. 9 This bill is introduced in the 10 Assembly by Assemblyman Joseph Crowley. The 11 bill permits the Department of Health to have 12 access to the criminal history records of any 13 persons seeking approval to become an 14 operator, administrator or receiver of an 15 adult care facility, any person seeking 16 recertification as an operator, administrator 17 or receiver. This occurs every four years. 18 Any person at any time the Department deems it 19 necessary to determine their criminal 20 histories. All requests must be accompanied 21 by the fingerprints of the subject of the 22 request. 23 In addition, in order to make 24 it all-inclusive as far as operators, 25 administrators or receivers of adult care 1 facilities, in the event that they have a plea 2 of guilty or they are found guilty by a jury 3 or a court, the court must notify the 4 Department of Health. 5 The bill in 1997 passed the 6 Senate 62 to zero. In 1996 it passed the 7 Senate 57 to zero. In prior years it also 8 passed unanimously in this house. 9 The justification is that the 10 Department of Health has the comprehensive 11 responsibility for the development and 12 administration of program, standard methods of 13 operation and all other matters of state 14 policy with respect to residential care 15 programs for adults. 16 The press has documented and 17 the courts have documented many instances of 18 abuse in adult care facilities. When we 19 entrust our seniors and the persons who have 20 earned a right to be unmolested certainly or 21 not disturbed in their declining years if they 22 must reside in an adult care facility, there 23 is an obligation on the part of the 24 Legislature, it would seem to me, to protect 25 those persons who, because of age or 1 infirmity, are unable to protect themselves. 2 This, by enabling the Department of Health to 3 inquire into the criminal histories, would 4 seem to serve that purpose. 5 The obligation on the 6 Department of Health in the granting or the 7 retaining of these operators or administrators 8 of these health care facilities is conditional 9 upon the moral -- moral health, the moral 10 character of these operators. Certainly they 11 should not be in a position that the -- they 12 would be guilty of a crime and in order to 13 provide some latitude, it is the Department of 14 Health that makes the judgment depending on 15 what the crime and the circumstances of the 16 crime that would be evidenced by the criminal 17 history to make a determination as to whether 18 the certificate of operation would be revoked 19 or suspended. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 21 you, Mr. President, if the sponsor would yield 22 to a couple of questions. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Maltese, do you yield to a question from 25 Senator Dollinger? 1 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senator yields. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: First of 5 all, Senator, in Section 3 of the bill, it 6 refers to making fingerprints of any person 7 who is subject to the request available. 8 Could you tell me why you need the 9 fingerprints of someone if you're going to get 10 their criminal history anyway? 11 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. 12 President, because so many persons are -- have 13 similar names, we -- it was felt that the best 14 way to secure the criminal history, an 15 accurate and complete criminal history, in 16 whatever jurisdiction was to have the 17 fingerprints that could be put through the 18 computer systems to pick up any crime that 19 there had previously been a conviction or plea 20 of guilty. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 22 through you, Mr. President. Is there 23 currently a provision in state law that 24 requires the fingerprinting of someone who 25 applies for this license? In other words, 1 Senator, I'm trying to find out, you ask for 2 them from DCJS. Where do you get the 3 comparisons so you can compare the 4 fingerprints together, find out whether the 5 person is who they claim to be? What's the - 6 where do you get the comparison material? 7 SENATOR MALTESE: Well, Mr. 8 President, a comparison with what? 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, again 10 through you, Mr. President. As I understand 11 this bills DCJS will, upon the Health 12 Department's inquiry, furnish a set of 13 fingerprints from someone who's been convicted 14 of a bill. If you want to know whether a 15 person who is applying for the license is the 16 same person who's arrested, you have to get 17 the fingerprints from the person who's 18 applying for the license, don't you? 19 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. 20 President, I see the -- I see the purpose of 21 the question but the fingerprints are 22 accompanying the request -- the fingerprints 23 are accompanying the request for the criminal 24 history records to the Department of Criminal 25 Justice. So they have these records. All 1 we're looking for is the criminal history. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 3 through you, Mr. President. Where is - 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Maltese -- excuse me, Senator Dollinger -- do 6 you continue to yield? 7 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes, I do. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Senator continues to yield, Senator Dollinger. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 11 Mr. President. 12 Where is the authorization in 13 current statute that someone who applies for 14 an operator's license has to provide their 15 fingerprints? 16 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. 17 President, I'm not aware there is one, but I 18 plan to introduce legislation to that effect 19 if there is not such a requirement. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 21 through you, Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Dollinger. Senator Maltese, do you continue 24 to yield? 25 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Senator continues to yield. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So we 4 really don't know whether this bill will be 5 effective then until you introduce some other 6 bill at a future time, is that correct? 7 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. 8 President, since the Department of Health has 9 the jurisdiction and the authority to grant 10 either the application or to continue the 11 application, any -- and the judgment is 12 theirs, it would seem certainly incumbent upon 13 them that if a request was made for 14 fingerprints and the subject refused to 15 comply, that in itself would be sufficient 16 grounds to not grant the certificate. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 18 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Maltese 19 continues to yield. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Maltese, do you continue to yield? 22 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 24 Senator continues to yield. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: In Section 1 2 of the bill, Senator, it refers to the fact 2 when an operator, administrator or receiver in 3 an adult care facility is convicted of a crime 4 while operating or administrating a facility, 5 is it your intention that those crimes only 6 relate to the operation of the facility, or 7 would this include any crime, including 8 driving while intoxicated? 9 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. 10 President, it is my intention that it be any 11 crime, any misdemeanor or felony, any crime as 12 defined by the Penal Law and then it would be 13 up to the Department of Health to make the 14 determination as to whether or not that crime 15 would be sufficient grounds to either revoke 16 an application or to discontinue the privilege 17 of administering or operating the health care 18 facility. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 20 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Maltese 21 would continue to yield. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Maltese, do you continue to yield? The 24 Senator continues to yield. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Where in 1 this bill do you give the Health Department 2 the discretion to deny them -- deny someone a 3 license on the basis of a crime such as 4 driving while intoxicated, that that finds 5 them incapable of serving as an administrator 6 or an operator of a nursing home? 7 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. 8 President, it is not within the four corners 9 of this bill, but it is defined by statute as 10 the -- as the privilege of the Health 11 Department to grant or continue that 12 application, and I believe it's covered under 13 461 of the Social Services Law and it 14 specifically refers to, for instance, 461 (b) 15 -- I bring your attention to 7 (a) -- "The 16 Department shall suspend, limit, modify or 17 revoke an operating certificate of a shelter 18 for adults, residence for adults or such home 19 upon determining that such action would be in 20 the public interest." It would seem to me 21 that in those cases that action would be 22 certainly in the public interest and they 23 speak -- they give the same rights to the 24 receiver in bankruptcy and they refer to - 25 461 (a) refers to the responsibility for 1 inspection and supervision, gives that right 2 to the Department of Health and in another 3 section that I can't lay my hands on right 4 now, but they indicate that the operator of a 5 health care -- operator or administrator of a 6 health care facility shall be of good moral 7 character. 8 So it seems to give untrammeled 9 authority to the Department of Health, as 10 should be the case, to make a judgment as to 11 whether the person or -- the person is a fit 12 person to operate or administer such a 13 facility. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 15 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Maltese 16 will yield. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Maltese, do you continue to yield? 19 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 Senator continues to yield. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: How does 23 your bill, Senator Maltese, deal with the 24 problem of a corporate owner of one of these 25 homes? 1 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. 2 President, according to the statutes, you 3 cannot -- you must have a person to be -- oh, 4 a person rather than a corporation. 5 Mr. President, I also found the 6 section I was referring to before, 461 (b), 7 Subsection 2 (a), "No adult care facility 8 shall be operated unless and until the 9 operator obtains the written approval of the 10 Department. Such approval may be granted only 11 to an operator who satisfactorily demonstrates 12 that the operator is of good moral character, 13 that the operator is financially responsible 14 and that there is a public need for the 15 facility. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 17 through you, Mr. President. With respect to 18 that section of the statute that will be 19 impacted by this bill, is it your intention to 20 include the fact that if you're convicted of a 21 crime, you are presumptively disqualified from 22 doing that? 23 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. 24 President, no. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: With 1 respect to -- again through you, Mr. 2 President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Maltese, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Senator continues to yield. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: With 9 respect to the ownership of a nursing home, 10 what about the situations in which a general 11 partnership owns a nursing home? Who would be 12 responsible for having the certification or 13 the fingerprints taken? 14 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. 15 President, it would seem that under the Social 16 Services Law -- unless I'm mistaken -- that 17 they indicate that such responsibility shall 18 only reside in a natural person; in other 19 words, the ultimate responsibility that the 20 health care facility itself may be a 21 corporation or a partnership, but if they are 22 actually a -- an operator or an administrator 23 of a nursing home, that would enter into the 24 securing or retaining of the certificate. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 1 Dollinger. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 3 through you, Mr. President, just one other 4 question. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Maltese, do you yield to one more question? 7 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Senator yields. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: This only 11 applies to operators and administrators of 12 nursing homes. What about the other personnel 13 that are involved in nursing home 14 administration, other people that are involved 15 in direct care supervision, the director of 16 nursing, the director of patient services, all 17 of whom would have the same potential to 18 create the kind of abusive damage to one of 19 their residents that you're addressing this 20 to? Doesn't this really address simply the 21 figure head and not really get at the people 22 who are supposed to be or are applying the 23 direct care who have probably a greater 24 opportunity for the kind of abusive conduct 25 that this bill is designed to prevent? 1 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. 2 President, it would seem that many of us have 3 legislation that would remedy the type of 4 abuse that Senator Dollinger is speaking 5 about, and I certainly would support or 6 endorse such legislation, but this legislation 7 would seek to remedy the type of abuse that is 8 prevalent in some nursing -- some health care 9 facilities that is -- starts at the top, the 10 type of abuse that involves a lack of 11 supervision, lack of care, lack of attention 12 when a patient or a resident requests some 13 type of assistance or needs some type of 14 special treatment, in the interests of a false 15 economy or outright greed, the operator or 16 administrator shortcuts. This is the type of 17 person that we do not wish to operate or 18 administer a health care facility and this is 19 the type of person we're seeking to stop from 20 being granted or retaining a certificate. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: A final 22 question through you, Mr. President. This 23 will be my last one. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Maltese, do you yield? 1 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senator yields. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, in 5 Section 2 of your bill, you require that local 6 criminal courts, if they know that an 7 administrator, operator, or receiver in an 8 adult care facility is convicted of a crime, 9 within ten days thereafter they have to notify 10 the Department of Health in writing of such a 11 conviction. Isn't that correct? 12 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What if the 14 conviction is overturned on appeal? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is that 16 a second question, Senator Dollinger. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's 18 correct. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are you 20 asking Senator Maltese to yield to a question 21 beyond your last question? 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 23 Mr. President. Yes. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Maltese, do you yield? 1 SENATOR MALTESE: I do, Mr. 2 President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Senator yields. 5 SENATOR MALTESE: I would 6 imagine that an operator or administrator of a 7 health care facility who's had a conviction 8 overturned would be very speedy about 9 notifying the Department of Health if such a 10 situation has taken place. It would also seem 11 incumbent upon his attorney or someone acting 12 in his interest to so notify the -- to so 13 notify the Department of Health. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 15 Mr. President. I thank Senator Maltese for 16 the explanation of the bill. 17 I simply raise those issues 18 because I think that this is a bill well 19 intentioned, that if you look at it very 20 carefully needs a provision that gives the 21 ability of a convicted operator to go back and 22 strike out a conviction that's overturned on 23 appeal, as I once represented someone who was 24 involved in a situation exactly like that, had 25 their conviction overturned on appeal without 1 the ability to file a correction with the 2 Department of Criminal Justice Services, get 3 your fingerprints back, you may have someone 4 who's unfortunately found in essence not 5 guilty or should not have been tried in the 6 first place, they end up with a permanent 7 black mark against them, may end up with a 8 proceeding before the Department of Health, 9 may end up spending an awful lot of money for 10 something they were never found guilty to have 11 done. 12 I would also suggest that -- I 13 voted for this bill in the past. I'm going to 14 vote for it again. I think it's a good poster 15 bill. I think it does some good things. My 16 hope is that when it comes back maybe next 17 year after we approve it for the sixth or 18 seventh time in a row, that the bill will be 19 refined to better reflect the intricacies of 20 trying to apply this on a day-to-day basis. 21 When it gets there, I'll even 22 vote for it more emphatically than I do today. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 24 Secretary will read the last section. 25 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 1 This act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 3 the roll. 4 (The Secretary called the 5 roll.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 bill is passed. 9 Senator Skelos. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 11 if we could return to reports of standing 12 committees, I believe there's a report of the 13 Rules Committee at the desk. I ask that it be 14 read at this time. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 16 return to the order of reports of standing 17 committees. There is a report of the Rules 18 Committee at the desk. 19 The Secretary will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno, 21 from the Committee on Rules, reports the 22 following bill directly for third reading: 23 Senate Print 6302, an act to 24 amend Chapter 115 of the Laws of 1995, by the 25 Committee on Rules. 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 2 move to accept the report of the Rules 3 Committee. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 5 motion is to accept the report of the Rules 6 Committee. All those in favor signify by 7 saying aye. 8 (Response of "Aye".) 9 Opposed, nay. 10 (There was no response.) 11 The report is accepted. The 12 bill is reported directly to third reading. 13 Senator Skelos. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: At this time 15 if we could take up Senate Bill Number 6302. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 Secretary will read. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 315, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate 20 Print 6302, an act to amend Chapter 115 of the 21 Laws of 1995, amending the General Business 22 Law, relating to hawkers and peddlers. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Skelos. 25 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 1 is there a message of necessity at the desk? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 3 is. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Move to 5 accept. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 motion is to accept the message of necessity 8 on Senate Bill 6302. All those in favor 9 signify by saying aye. 10 (Response of "Aye".) 11 Opposed, nay. 12 (There was no response.) 13 The message is accepted. 14 The bill is advanced. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Last section, 16 please. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: 18 Explanation. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Skelos, an explanation has been requested by 21 Senator Dollinger. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: A careful 23 reading of this bill, Mr. President, extends 24 the existing, what is called the Peddlers Law, 25 from March 1st to April 1st. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 2 Secretary will read the last section. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one 4 question. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Dollinger, on the bill. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Could you 8 just explain to me what the -- again through 9 you, Mr. President, to Senator Skelos, could 10 you just explain to me what the bill does, 11 what the underlying bill does. I remember we 12 did this peddler bill at some point earlier, 13 Mr. President, but I'm not - 14 SENATOR SKELOS: 6302, as I 15 explained and I think that is sufficient, 16 extends the law until April 1st, 1998. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 18 through you, Mr. President. Which law are we 19 talking about that we're extending? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are you 21 asking Senator Skelos to yield to a question? 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I would, 23 Mr. President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 25 Pardon? 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I would, 2 Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Skelos, do you yield? 5 SENATOR SKELOS: No, I don't 6 yield. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Senator refuses to yield. 9 Senator Dollinger. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 11 President, is there anybody on the Majority 12 who could explain this bill and tell me what 13 the bill is that we're extending so that at 14 least I will know, so before I cast a bill 15 that I guess it's not going to affect any of 16 my people, but I would like to know what the 17 bill is that we're extending? Again - 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Dollinger, which Senator are you asking to 20 yield? 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll take 22 all comers, open mike, Mr. President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: No 24 Senator is appearing to yield at this time. 25 Senator Dollinger, the floor is 1 yours, if you wish. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 3 Mr. President. 4 I find it amazing that we go 5 through these exercises where we ask for a 6 little bit of courtesy on the floor of the 7 chamber and we don't get much and then all of 8 a sudden we do a bill that's going to extend 9 something. I guess someone somewhere has 10 figured out that we're right at the deadline 11 where we have to do something and, lo and 12 behold, we're right at that deadline right 13 now. Here comes a bill. I don't know what it 14 does. 15 I guess my vote is taken for 16 granted or maybe all 61 votes are taken for 17 granted, but I find it a shame that when 18 someone, whoever this guy is, Rules, who 19 passes all these bills, when we ask questions 20 about what the bills are and what they do, we 21 don't get any answers, and I can't believe 22 that -- I guess that's what democracy has come 23 to. You ask questions. You don't get answers 24 and you make votes in the dark. I guess there 25 are 35 votes that are maybe cast with a little 1 bit of light, but it seems to me a silly way 2 to do business. 3 I've said it before. I'll say 4 it again. I'm going to say it time and time 5 and time again today. I think it's my 6 prerogative to do that and, frankly, when 7 maybe at some day it changes, if it ever 8 changes, I'll stop saying it. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 Secretary will read the last section. 11 Senator Leichter. Excuse me. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 13 President, on the bill. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 15 Leichter, on the bill. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: I think it's 17 unfortunate that a perfectly valid and 18 reasonable question is refused an answer. 19 Senator, we're now extending 20 the date of a law. Senator Dollinger asked a 21 perfectly reasonable question, what is the law 22 that we're extending? I think he's entitled 23 to an answer. I'm sure there's a number of 24 you sitting on this floor who can't really 25 remember exactly what the "peddlers law" 1 does. Frankly, even though it's in my city, 2 I'm not 100 percent certain about every term 3 and provision of that law, but I think a 4 general description would be helpful, and I 5 think there's a certain arrogance on the part 6 of the Majority. I'm sorry to say this. 7 We're putting bills out. We'll pass whatever 8 we damn please and you're not even entitled to 9 ask questions about it. Well, I guess we 10 could always talk about the bill, and I guess 11 what you're saying is you have a lot of time 12 to spend on the floor and that's fine. I can 13 think of a lot of things I can speculate about 14 and talk about and maybe we should and maybe 15 in the meantime somebody will want to look up 16 that law and try to give Senator Dollinger an 17 answer. 18 I mean, this whole process 19 today started because one of our colleagues 20 here was treated in a very petty, shameful 21 manner. His bill was stolen. Somebody else 22 took his bill, put their name on it and 23 without even the courtesy of telling him and 24 it's so petty. It's so petty. 25 Aren't we out to serve the 1 people of the state? Does anybody in Monroe 2 County who's affected by the legislation that 3 we debated earlier care whether the bill is 4 passed under the same of Senator Rath or 5 Senator Dollinger or Senator Smith or any name 6 that you want? The whole point is to pass the 7 law and it has no political implications 8 because I assume that Senator Rath is 9 extremely popular in her district and I don't 10 know whether she needs this additional notch 11 and this additional gubernatorial pen and my 12 belief is that Senator Dollinger is very 13 popular in his district. I think last time - 14 I don't know whether he even had an opponent 15 or whether he'll have an opponent this time, 16 but certainly whether his name is on the bill 17 or not is not going to change the political 18 universe in this state. 19 So I think Senator Dollinger 20 had a real grievance, but I think he also made 21 a very good substantive point in debating 22 Senator Rath as to the effective date of the 23 bill and who it would affect, and so on, and 24 things that could have been worked out if 25 somebody just had the courtesy to speak to 1 him, and he's made it a point since then to 2 get up and to debate bills, I guess partly to 3 say, if you want to treat me this way, then 4 I'm going to ask that you get up and defend 5 your bills and actually it's been very useful 6 because ordinarily Senator Maltese's bill just 7 would have swept through and we would have the 8 chance, I guess to vote on it again next year, 9 the year after, and so on, but I think Senator 10 Dollinger happened to make some very good 11 points and since I had a lot of time, I read 12 the bill over ten times, and I thought of 13 something that could be done to improve that 14 bill. So maybe there's something to be gained 15 by this. 16 Now, we come to the next bill 17 and it's a bill, the "peddlers law" which 18 there was some furor about the few times that 19 that bill has been taken up, and Senator 20 Dollinger asked a perfectly legitimate 21 question. What law are we extending, and it 22 seems fair that before we extend the law, that 23 we ought to know what law we're extending and 24 the Majority says, "I'm not going to tell 25 you." 1 Now, you might say in ordinary 2 circumstances you had this bill on your desk 3 for three days, you should have looked it up 4 yourself, but this bill just came out of 5 Rules. It was just printed. It's being 6 passed under a message of necessity. So 7 Senator Dollinger, nor for that matter other 8 members, had any way of knowing that this bill 9 was going to come before us and why is it 10 wrong to know what bill is being passed or 11 what law is being extended, and I think if 12 that question had been answered and it could 13 have been answered, I think fairly simply, we 14 probably would have gone on and we would be on 15 the next bill. 16 So it would seem to me that if 17 we had a more collegial and a more rational 18 and a more objective procedure here, and less 19 partisan and less political, I would think, 20 one, we would find that our work is going to 21 get done in a more expeditious manner, and I 22 think secondly we'll find out that we do a 23 better job, that we provide better service to 24 the people of the state of New York. 25 Now, if this proceeding was 1 being televised -- and usually the only time 2 you see television cameras is when maybe some 3 member of the Majority has a bill, but if we 4 could have these proceedings televised as 5 congressional proceedings are, I suspect we 6 wouldn't have these sort of disruptions 7 because I think people would be too 8 embarrassed to do it. Would you want what 9 happened today shown to the people of the 10 state of New York? They would say, my God, 11 what is this, a kindergarten class or is this 12 the Legislature of what was once known as the 13 Empire State? I don't think you would expect 14 people in grade school to behave in this sort 15 of a petty fashion. 16 Now, on this particular bill, 17 as I remember, there was an issue about 18 licenses for peddlers and since there's a 19 provision of the law, if memory serves me, 20 that veterans are entitled to, I won't use the 21 word "peddle". There's something about the 22 word "peddle" that is somewhat demeaning, 23 although God knows many of our forebears who 24 came to this country, they started as peddlers 25 and did very well. I have an uncle or - 1 great, great uncle by marriage who started as 2 a peddler in Texas and then ended up owning 3 ten big department stores. So there's really 4 nothing wrong with being a peddler, but I 5 think nowadays you don't like to be called a 6 peddler and I guess what the law provided is 7 not that all veterans but disabled veterans, 8 Senator Stachowski's particularly learned on 9 matters affecting veterans and the bills 10 pointed out -- so that disabled veterans were 11 excluded. 12 I think what happens, Senator 13 Dollinger, and Senator Goodman who's carried 14 this bill and very ably so and got it through 15 this Legislature a number of times, that in 16 the city of New York, particularly on Fifth 17 Avenue, people were taking advantage of the 18 disability exemption and were peddling in 19 great numbers on Fifth Avenue. Now, Fifth 20 Avenue maybe shouldn't be deserving of any 21 greater protection than any other street of 22 the state of New York, but on the other hand, 23 Fifth Avenue is sort of the mecca for 24 tourists, for shoppers, and it was a problem 25 in the city of New York and, I believe not 1 only the current City administration but if 2 memory serves me, I think the previous City 3 administration under Mayor Dinkins, and maybe 4 it even goes back to the time of Mayor Koch 5 and, again, Senator Goodman would probably 6 know that, asked that we remove the exemption, 7 and I believe that was done and that bill or 8 that law then came up for renewal last year 9 and some of the veteran organizations looking 10 out for the interest of veterans were 11 concerned that this was being used in such a 12 manner that truly disabled veterans were being 13 denied rights that we think that they ought to 14 have, and again, if memory serves me, there 15 was some discussion, although I don't believe 16 it was in the bill, that an effort would be 17 made for truly disabled veterans to be placed 18 somewhere near Fifth Avenue, if not on the 19 avenue itself, that the City would have the 20 obligation of providing a specific zone where 21 these disabled veterans could go and sell 22 their wares, and that bill was passed last 23 year. I didn't remember, frankly, that it 24 only had a -- it was -- had a sunset date of 25 March 1, 1998 and that law is now being 1 sunset, and I guess the aim and purpose of 2 this bill is to extend it for 30 days while 3 certain of the effects of the law and how the 4 law has been implemented and worked out could 5 be looked at and maybe there will be some 6 modifying language. I guess the interests 7 were trying to protect both those of the 8 disabled veterans and certainly everybody in 9 this house has their interests very much in 10 mind. On the other hand, there's an effort 11 and an intent to see that a major shopping 12 thoroughfare in New York City is not clogged 13 up with a lot of people selling their wares 14 there, competing with stores, driving tourists 15 away, and I think that is the issue. 16 So there's certainly nothing 17 offensive to my mind about this particular 18 bill. I think it makes a lot of sense and 19 with a little courtesy and a little 20 explanation, we might have been able to have 21 disposed of this bill before now. 22 Thank you. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Dollinger, on the bill. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you 1 very much, Mr. President. 2 Senator Leichter, I think that 3 when I have questions about Rules Committee 4 bills in the future, I think I'll just direct 5 them to you. There were one too many "I 6 think"s and "I suppose" and I understand in 7 your answer for me to have -- give it the full 8 weight of fact, but that was as good an 9 explanation as I have heard on this bill, 10 which I guess the only thing I have heard 11 about it is that it changes the date from 12 March to April, which is I guess all the bill 13 does. 14 Mr. President, my only reason 15 in rising today is that I have heard many 16 people in this chamber say that we ought to 17 run government more like a business. What I 18 find so fascinating about this is that if this 19 were a business under our Business Corporation 20 Law, we have a provision that says that if 21 you're a director of a corporation, you can go 22 in and inspect the records and all the 23 information in the corporation any time you 24 want. You not only have the right to ask 25 questions, you have an obligation to get 1 answers before you do something. Look it up 2 in the Business Corporation Law, Section 700, 3 "Obligations of Directors." You're required 4 to do certain things. 5 Well, here we are the board of 6 directors of New York State and, lo and 7 behold, this place which is supposedly run 8 like a business that our president, I think 9 rightfully so, has brought many business 10 practices to, in the course of his two-year 11 tenure as the Senate leader, he heralds the 12 fact that we're running it like a business, 13 but yet we don't extend to the directors, the 14 members of the board the statutory obligations 15 that we would require of a director of a 16 business corporation. So we have this little 17 fiction. This little fiction is that we run 18 this house like a business, that we require 19 businesses, our corporations, to be run like 20 businesses, but when you look at our own 21 chamber, we can't even get answers to very 22 legitimate questions, simple questions. 23 What does the bill do? 24 Unanswered. Disappointing. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 1 Secretary will read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 3 This act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 5 the roll. 6 (The Secretary called the 7 roll.) 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 9 Announce the results when recorded. 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56, nays 11 1, Senator Dollinger recorded in the negative. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 bill is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 101, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5007, an 16 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: 18 Explanation. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside 20 for the day. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 22 bill aside for the day. 23 The Secretary will continue to 24 read the controversial calendar. 25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 1 107, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 3646, an 2 act to amend the Public Authorities Law. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: 4 Explanation. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Leibell, an explanation of Calendar Number 107 7 has been requested by Senator Dollinger. 8 SENATOR LEIBELL: Mr. 9 President, this bill would specifically amend 10 Section 2417 of the Public Authorities Law to 11 add directors, officers and employees of 12 SONYMA to the list of persons who are defended 13 and indemnified by the state of New York. 14 As with all state defense and 15 indemnification, such would apply only for 16 actions made by such directors, officers and 17 employees that are within the scope of their 18 office, employment and authority. 19 Currently because directors, 20 officers and employees of the state of New 21 York Mortgage Agency are not provided with 22 state defense and indemnification, the agency 23 must incur private legal defense costs and 24 maintain expensive professional liability 25 insurance. 1 These costs, if this bill 2 passes, could be redirected by providing more 3 affordable housing and more financing for 4 first-time home buyers, rather than being 5 wasted on unnecessary legal fees and insurance 6 premiums. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 8 you, Mr. President, if the sponsor would yield 9 to a couple of questions. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Leibell, do you yield to a question by Senator 12 Dollinger? 13 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 Senator yields. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Why at the 17 formation of SONYMA where provisions that you 18 seek to introduce, why were they not included 19 in the original enabling legislation? 20 SENATOR LEIBELL: I don't know 21 the answer to that and it was certainly before 22 me, but I would comment, I think it's a 23 historical curiosity that this and maybe 24 others were not included whereas many are. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 1 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Leibell 2 would - 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Leibell, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, I do. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: He will? 7 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Senator yields. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Isn't it a 11 fact when SONYMA was created, it was going to 12 be in essence the equivalent of a 13 free-standing agency that would be out in the 14 marketplace doing some things on its own, 15 standing on its own legs and, therefore, it 16 wasn't entitled to that indemnification and 17 hold harmless protection that we only accord 18 to people who are acting in a state capacity, 19 in essence, acting like the king. This is 20 really acting like a private enterprise, isn't 21 this correct? 22 SENATOR LEIBELL: It is a 23 subdivision of our state but SONYMA is a 24 public authority. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 1 through you, Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Leibell, do you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But SONYMA 5 was involved - 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Dollinger, excuse me. 8 Senator Leibell, do you 9 continue to yield? 10 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, I do. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Senator continues to yield. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: SONYMA was 14 involved in a business -- in the mortgage 15 business and, in essence, although it was 16 chartered by the state of New York and formed 17 as an authority by the state of New York, is 18 really in a business of participating in the 19 private marketplace, was it not? 20 SENATOR LEIBELL: There are 21 many organizations that come within the state 22 that deal in the private marketplace. There 23 are many out there that function similarly to 24 SONYMA would have these protections, but this 25 agency just does not. 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 2 through you, Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Leibell, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes. 6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I note in 7 your memorandum in support, you indicate that 8 UDC, MAC and the HFA have similar 9 indemnification divisions. What other state 10 agencies that are in the same general business 11 activity as SONYMA do not have this hold 12 harmless indemnification provision? 13 SENATOR LEIBELL: I'm not aware 14 of any. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So this - 16 again through you, Mr. President, if Senator 17 Leibell would continue to yield. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Leibell, do you continue to yield? 20 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr. 21 President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I know 23 it's all right with Senator Farley, but I 24 wasn't sure about you. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So it 1 appears as though this is the only state 2 agency that doesn't have this protection; is 3 that what I understand you to say? 4 SENATOR LEIBELL: Well, no. I 5 was trying to answer your question and your 6 question was what others do not, and I'm not 7 aware of any others that do not. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 9 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Leibell 10 would continue - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Leibell, do you continue to yield? 13 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr. 14 President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Senator continues to yield. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: As I 18 understand, this indemnification and hold 19 harmless will be triggered upon a finding by a 20 jury that they weren't acting in bad faith, is 21 that correct? 22 SENATOR LEIBELL: Counsel is 23 checking. It's a defense. So, in other 24 words, when an action is commenced, the 25 defense would begin. 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But the - 2 again through you, Mr. President, if Senator 3 Leibell would continue to yield. 4 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6 Senator yields. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That would 8 be an affirmative defense of indemnification 9 raised by SONYMA and its officers and 10 directors because this would apply to them, 11 isn't that correct? So it would be raised as 12 an affirmative defense. It would be the 13 obligation of them to prove that they were not 14 acting in bad faith, is that correct? 15 SENATOR LEIBELL: No. If they 16 are sued, they would -- under this, if they 17 are sued, they would get a defense and be 18 indemnified. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 20 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Leibell 21 will continue to yield. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Leibell, do you continue to yield? The 24 Senator continues to yield. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm trying 1 to determine how the indemnification is 2 triggered. An action is bought against an 3 officer or director in their individual 4 capacity. 5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Okay. 6 There's no affirmative defense. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 8 through you, Mr. President. You've thrown me 9 a curve ball. If it isn't an affirmative 10 defense, what is it? 11 SENATOR LEIBELL: Senator, this 12 is really straightforward. We are attempting 13 to put SONYMA in the same position as many 14 other authorities. Other similar public 15 authorities which are currently afforded state 16 defense and indemnification include the state 17 Urban Development Corporation, the Project 18 Finance Agency, Municipal Assistance 19 Corporation, the Housing Finance Agency, the 20 Facilities Development Corporation, the Long 21 Island Power Authority, the State University 22 Construction Fund, the Local Government 23 Assistance Corporation and the State Energy 24 Research & Development Authority. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 1 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Leibell 2 would continue - 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Leibell, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 Senator yields. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm simply 9 trying to determine how the indemnification is 10 triggered. I read it to say that it says they 11 shall be entitled to it. Is it presumed that 12 they are indemnified to start and then if they 13 aren't indemnified, who would have the burden 14 of proof to show that they would not have 15 acted in good faith for a purpose which is 16 reasonably believed to be in the best interest 17 of the agency or not to have reasonable cause 18 to believe this conduct is lawful. When is 19 that proof presented where it says, "for a 20 judicial determination"? 21 SENATOR LEIBELL: Upon verdict 22 they will get indemnification. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 24 through you, Mr. President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 1 Leibell, do you continue to yield? 2 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Senator continues to yield. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Does that 6 mean that the director and officer of SONYMA 7 has to go through the entire trial not knowing 8 whether they'll be indemnified by the state 9 and whether their costs and expenses will be 10 paid? 11 SENATOR LEIBELL: You're not 12 going to know you're indemnified until you get 13 a verdict. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 15 through you, Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Leibell, do you continue to yield? 18 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 Senator continues to yield. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is that the 22 way we trigger indemnification for all the 23 agency employees and directors for all those 24 other agencies? They go to trial, hire a 25 private counsel not knowing whether they'll be 1 entitled to indemnification; we force them to 2 pay all the money themselves without our 3 fronting the money? 4 SENATOR LEIBELL: You wouldn't 5 be hiring private counsel here. The state 6 would provide your defense. If there's a 7 verdict against you, you would then be 8 indemnified. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But if the 10 verdict -- again through you, Mr. President. 11 I apologize. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Leibell, do you continue to yield? The 14 Senator continues to yield. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But if the 16 -- you would be indemnified unless the 17 verdict went against you, unless the word - 18 you're entitled to indemnification, the state 19 pays for the cost of defense, pays the cost of 20 any judgment against you, that's 21 indemnification and hold harmless. The only 22 way that can be reviewed is by a judicial 23 determination that you weren't acting with a 24 reasonable belief that it was lawful. 25 SENATOR LEIBELL: Within the 1 scope of your employment. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. So 3 you get the indemnification up front and it's 4 only upon a later determination that you would 5 be stripped of it if you were determined to be 6 acting outside the scope of your employment. 7 SENATOR LEIBELL: That would be 8 correct. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's what 10 I thought. 11 Again through you, Mr. 12 President, one final question. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Leibell, do you yield for one final question? 15 The Senator yields. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: To whom 17 will this indemnification apply? How far down 18 the ladder, chain of authority at SONYMA, will 19 be protected by this indemnification and hold 20 harmless clause? 21 SENATOR LEIBELL: As in my 22 opening statement, I said it would be 23 directors, officers and employees acting 24 within the scope of their employment. 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm 1 satisfied, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator 2 Leibell. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Secretary will read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 6 This act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 8 the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the 10 roll.) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 bill is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 127, by Senator Present, Senate Print 532, an 16 act to amend the General Municipal Law. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: 18 Explanation. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Present, an explanation of Calendar Number 127 21 has been requested by Senator Dollinger. 22 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. 23 President, the purpose of this bill is to 24 promote jobs, industry in this state by 25 encouraging local municipalities to purchase 1 from New York State owned and operated 2 companies. 3 Currently the General Municipal 4 Law of the state requires counties and 5 municipalities to award work or purchase 6 contracts to the lowest bidder. This gives 7 the counties no ability to give preference to 8 New York State workers or out of -- if out-of 9 state companies with out-of-state workers 10 submit the lowest bid. 11 This legislation would allow 12 counties and municipalities to award contracts 13 to companies who work and employ persons in 14 New York State as long as their bid comes 15 within five percent of the lowest bid 16 submitted for that contract. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 18 President, if the sponsor will yield to a 19 couple of questions. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Present, do you yield to a question from 22 Senator Dollinger? 23 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 25 Senator yields. 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, do 2 you have any opinion from the Attorney General 3 that this bill is constitutional in view of 4 the requirement, I believe in the state 5 Constitution, that we award our bids to the 6 lowest responsible bidder? 7 SENATOR PRESENT: No. I have 8 no opinion from the Attorney General. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The statute 10 -- the proposed bill makes - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 12 Dollinger, you're asking Senator Present to 13 yield again? 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I am, Mr. 15 President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Present, do you yield to another question from 18 Senator Dollinger? 19 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 21 Senator yields. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 23 Mr. President. 24 The proposed bill on page 2, 25 line 4, refers to a finding by a local 1 governing body that such bidder shall 2 manufacture, produce, fabricate, grow, or 3 distribute materials called for in the 4 contract and will employ the residents of the 5 state in the performance of such contracts. 6 Is it your intent to make that requirement a 7 part of the bidding process, that every bidder 8 would have to submit that information? 9 SENATOR PRESENT: Every New 10 York State bidder. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 12 you, Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Present? 15 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would 17 Senator Present continue to yield? 18 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 20 Senator yields. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Even if 22 there were an out-of-state bidder who was 23 going to use New York labor and New York 24 materials, that out-of-state bidder would have 25 to provide the information requested, isn't 1 that correct? 2 SENATOR PRESENT: I think 3 you're right. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And through 5 you, Mr. President, if Senator Present would 6 continue to yield. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Present, do you yield? 9 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Senator yields. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Who on the 13 local governing body is it your intention to 14 make -- or enable to make this decision about 15 content -- local content or statewide content 16 of the materials? 17 SENATOR PRESENT: Who? 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Who? 19 SENATOR PRESENT: I believe it 20 probably would be the committee that had the 21 spec's for this bid drawn up and let and 22 received, Transportation Committee, the 23 Housing Committee, whatever. 24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. 25 Again through you, Mr. President. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Present, do you continue to yield? 3 (Senator Present nods head.) 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is there 5 any process for a hearing or investigation as 6 part of this bill? For example, if a 7 contractor makes a representation that someone 8 suggests may not be true, is there any 9 opportunity for a hearing on the validity of 10 the representations made by the contractor? 11 SENATOR PRESENT: No, there's 12 no provision for appeal. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 14 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Present 15 would continue to yield. 16 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 Senator continues to yield. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Don't you 20 think it would be appropriate to have some 21 form of hearing to allow the local governing 22 board to determine the accuracy of 23 representations made by contractors with 24 respect to local content? 25 SENATOR PRESENT: No, I don't 1 think that's necessary at this time. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: One final 3 question for Senator Present, Mr. President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Present, do you continue to yield? 6 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Senator continues to yield. 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Do you have 10 any guidelines, Senator, for how many 11 employees would need to be -- of this state 12 would need to be hired by this contractor in 13 order to justify varying our public bidding 14 laws? Is there any threshold number, 5, 10, 15 15 employees that would have to be hired in 16 order to justify us doing something other than 17 taking the lowest possible bid? 18 SENATOR PRESENT: No, sir. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. 20 Thank you, Mr. President. 21 On the bill. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Dollinger, on the bill. 24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I also 25 appreciate Senator Present's courtesy extended 1 to me in answering my questions. 2 This bill which I think I voted 3 for in the past -- my guess is I did -- again 4 has a very good idea and that is, let's 5 promote local content. Let's increase the use 6 of New York State materials, New York State 7 requirements, New York State employees in our 8 construction contracts, in all of our 9 contracts. Let's encourage people to buy New 10 York State. I think it's a great idea, and I 11 think that this bill, in part, contains that. 12 I think it's fatally flawed - 13 may be fatally flawed for two reasons: One, I 14 think it's a departure from our state 15 constitutional requirement for accepting 16 lowest possible bids; two, I think without a 17 hearing process in it, without some way to 18 verify the representations made by the local 19 contractor. Quite frankly, I think the bill 20 could use a little extra draftsmanship, a 21 little refinement so we actually get something 22 that really achieves the goal that Senator 23 Present and I agree would be a good idea, 24 which is to give local preferences to people 25 who are using New York State labor. 1 I voted for it in the past. 2 I'll vote for it again. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 4 Secretary will read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 6 This act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 8 the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the 10 roll.) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 bill is passed. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 161, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 1499, an 16 act to amend the Public Health law. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: 18 Explanation. 19 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 21 bill aside. 22 The Secretary will continue to 23 read. 24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 25 209, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 150, an 1 act to amend the Environmental Conservation 2 Law. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside 4 for the day. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 6 bill aside for the day. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 210, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 389, an 9 act to amend the Environmental Conservation 10 Law. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: 12 Explanation. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay the bill 14 aside for the day. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 16 bill aside for the day. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 219, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 3890, an 19 act to amend the County Law. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: 21 Explanation. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay the bill 23 aside for the day. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 25 bill aside for the day. 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 220, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 4647, an 3 act to amend the Town Law. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: 5 Explanation. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 Cook, an explanation of Calendar Number 220 8 has been requested by Senator Dollinger. 9 SENATOR COOK: Thank you, Mr. 10 President. 11 The position of town counsel - 12 constable is an old and revered title. It 13 goes back, I guess probably to Colonial days 14 and originally it was a position. In fact, I 15 think at one point it may have even been an 16 elected position, but in more recent times 17 it's become an appointed position, but the 18 interesting thing was that as towns got bigger 19 and second class towns can have constables 20 until they reach the population of 10,000, so 21 that some towns have numerous constables but 22 there has never been a provision for somebody 23 to be the chief. So consequently every 24 constable that a town employs in theory at 25 least reports directly to the town board, 1 entire town board which, of course, makes it 2 in modern times pretty impossible in a town 3 that may have 9,000 population, may have eight 4 or nine constables to be each of them 5 reporting on an equal basis directly to the 6 town board. 7 So what this bill does -- and 8 quite honestly, most of the towns have sort of 9 blinked at that and somebody has been, in 10 effect, acting as the chief constable, but 11 there is really no provision in law that 12 provides for that and this bill simply is to 13 make honest people out of those who have been 14 doing the right thing all along, but there 15 hasn't been any statutory authorization for 16 it. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 18 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Cook 19 would yield to a couple of questions. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Cook, do you yield? The Senator yields. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What are 23 the duties of a chief constable? 24 SENATOR COOK: Well, the chief 25 constable is basically in the same manner as 1 the chief of police to make the job 2 assignments, preside over the general 3 operation of the constable -- the constables 4 of the town. 5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 6 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Cook 7 will continue to yield. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 9 Cook, do you continue to yield? 10 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Senator yields. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Cook, are those duties spelled out in 15 statute? 16 SENATOR COOK: No, they're not, 17 Senator. The town board would have the 18 authority. Since the town board appoints all 19 of the constables in the town, the town board 20 would be the one to create the chief 21 constable. They are the ones who would also 22 determine what the powers and authorities of 23 the constable are. 24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 25 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Cook 1 will yield. 2 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Isn't it 4 possible under the current Town Law for towns 5 to create the position of chief constable, or 6 for that matter, the principal constable or 7 the lead constable or the boss constable or 8 the number one constable versus the number 9 two, number three and simply through the Town 10 Law, in the exercising of its own discretion, 11 without assistance from us, create a hierarchy 12 of authority and reporting responsibilities in 13 the towns? 14 SENATOR COOK: Well, Senator, 15 as a practical matter, that's what they have 16 been doing but it also as a legal matter, they 17 technically have not had the legal authority 18 to do it and that's all we're trying to take 19 care of here. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 21 through you, Mr. President, if Senator will 22 yield. 23 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 25 Senator yields. 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What are 2 the legal problems with doing it through the 3 Town Law versus having a state enabling 4 statute? 5 SENATOR COOK: The only 6 problem, Senator, is that if at some point 7 someone challenges the authority of the chief 8 constable either operating under authority of 9 the town board or if the town board actually 10 creates this position, the courts, as you 11 know, have more than once out... overruled 12 something that localities have done simply on 13 the basis that there exists no statutory 14 authority to do it, and that's all we're 15 really trying to remedy. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Excuse me, 18 Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 20 Leichter, why do you rise? 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Point of 22 order. I don't believe that we have a quorum 23 here. I see an absence of a quorum, Mr. 24 President, and either we should adjourn or, if 25 the President wishes to have a quorum call, 1 that's fine but there certainly aren't 31 2 members here at the present time. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are you 4 requesting a quorum call, Senator? 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm asking a 6 quorum call. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Secretary will read. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate. 10 (There was no response.) 11 Senator Alesi. 12 (There was no response.) 13 Senator Balboni. 14 (There was no response.) 15 Senator Breslin. 16 (There was no response.) 17 Senator Bruno. 18 (Indication of present.) 19 Senator Connor. 20 (Indication of present.) 21 Senator Cook. 22 SENATOR COOK: Here. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator 24 DeFrancisco. 25 (There was no response.) 1 Senator Dollinger. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Here, 3 present. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley. 5 SENATOR FARLEY: Here. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 Gentile. 8 SENATOR GENTILE: Here. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold. 10 (There was no response.) 11 Senator Gonzalez, excused. 12 Senator Goodman. 13 SENATOR GOODMAN: Here. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon. 15 SENATOR HANNON: Here. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Hoffmann. 18 (There was no response.) 19 Senator Holland. 20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Here. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator 22 Johnson. 23 (There was no response.) 24 Senator Kruger. 25 SENATOR KRUGER: Here. 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl. 2 SENATOR KUHL: Present. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator 4 Lachman. 5 (There was no response.) 6 Senator Lack. 7 (There was no response.) 8 Senator Larkin. 9 SENATOR LARKIN: Here. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator 11 LaValle. 12 SENATOR LAVALLE: Here. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator 14 Leibell. 15 SENATOR LEIBELL: Here. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Leichter. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Present. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous. 20 (There was no response.) 21 Senator Maltese. 22 (There was no response.) 23 Senator Marcellino. 24 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Present. 25 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi. 1 SENATOR MARCHI: Here. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator 3 Markowitz. 4 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Here. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator 6 Maziarz. 7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Here. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Meier. 9 SENATOR MEIER: Present. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez. 11 (There was no response.) 12 Senator Montgomery. 13 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Here. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula. 15 SENATOR NANULA: Here. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator 17 Nozzolio. 18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Present. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator 20 Onorato. 21 SENATOR ONORATO: Mr. 22 President, to explain my presence. I'm happy 23 to be here, to be part of the quorum. 24 Thank you. 25 THE SECRETARY: Senator 1 Oppenheimer, excused. 2 Senator Padavan. 3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Here. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator 5 Paterson. 6 SENATOR PATERSON: Can I 7 explain my presence? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 9 is a quorum present. We're on debate on 10 Calendar Number 220 by Senator Cook. 11 The Secretary will read the 12 last section. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 14 President. On the bill, Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 16 Dollinger, on the bill. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 18 President, this is one of those bills that 19 we've done, I'm sure before, we'll do again. 20 I don't object to Senator Cook trying to 21 remedy what appears to be a minor gap in the 22 statute. It is a little teeny-weeny, 23 itsy-bitsy issue, whether you can have a chief 24 constable. I don't believe -- it's a kind of 25 solution looking for a problem because even as 1 Senator Cook admitted, there's really no 2 evident problem, no problems that have arose 3 yet and yet what we're going to do is we're 4 going to create another title in government. 5 We're going to create another layer of 6 government. We're going to decide here that 7 this is the right thing for towns to do, to 8 give towns the ability to do it. We're 9 creating more government. Why we would be 10 creating more government is beyond me. 11 I have heard all kinds of 12 rhetoric in this house in the last five years 13 about creating less government, doing less 14 with government, using less of the heavy hand 15 of government to accomplish these things and 16 quite frankly, here we are creating more 17 government. 18 Senator Cook, this may be a 19 solution, but I don't think there's a problem 20 to attach it to. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 22 Secretary will read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 24 This act shall take effect immediately. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 1 the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the 3 roll.) 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Record 5 the negatives and announce the results. 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56, nays 7 2, Senator Dollinger and Leichter recorded in 8 the negative. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 bill is passed. 11 Senator Skelos. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 13 would you please take up Senator Hannon's 14 bill, Calendar Number 161. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 Secretary will read the title to Calendar 17 Number 161. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 161, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 1499, an 20 act to amend the Public Health Law. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: 22 Explanation. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Hannon, an explanation of Calendar Number 161 25 has been requested by Senator Dollinger. 1 SENATOR HANNON: Thank you, Mr. 2 President. 3 This legislation would allow a 4 city or a county government to seek 5 indemnification from the insurance company 6 which insures a prisoner when that prisoner 7 has received covered medical services and the 8 individual covered has been then contained in 9 a city or county correctional facility. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 11 you, Mr. President. Will Senator Hannon yield 12 to a couple of questions? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Hannon, do you yield?? 15 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 17 Senator yields. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Pursuant to 19 your bill, Senator Hannon, how does the county 20 find out that the prisoner has health 21 insurance? 22 SENATOR HANNON: Ask. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 24 you, Mr. President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 1 Hannon, will you yield to another question? 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Where is 3 that authorized in the - 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 5 me, Senator Dollinger. I didn't hear Senator 6 Hannon. 7 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 Senator yields. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Where is 11 that authorized in statute that you can 12 inquire of a prisoner whether he's got health 13 insurance? 14 SENATOR HANNON: As part of the 15 intake process to have an individual become a 16 resident of a correctional facility, one goes 17 through a whole series of questions and that 18 would be one of them. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 20 you, Mr. President. Is there any provision in 21 here that says that the prisoner is compelled 22 to grant -- to give that information? Through 23 you, Mr. President. Is there anything that 24 compels him to give that information? 25 SENATOR HANNON: Nope. 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is there 2 any -- through you, Mr. President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 4 Hannon, do you continue to yield? The Senator 5 continues to yield. 6 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. Excuse 7 me. 8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is there 9 anything in your bill that gives the local 10 community, the city or the county the ability 11 to go out and independently investigate and 12 find out those facts for themselves? 13 SENATOR HANNON: I would think 14 they would have general power for somebody 15 under the care to make a general inquiry if 16 that was the case. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Dollinger. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 20 you, Mr. President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Hannon, do you continue to yield? 23 SENATOR HANNON: Yes, sir. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 25 Senator continues to yield. 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Your bill 2 makes reference, Senator, to any necessary 3 forms on behalf of the person receiving 4 medical services. What kind of forms are you 5 talking about with respect to that, Senator? 6 SENATOR HANNON: Claim forms. 7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: They would 8 file -- again through you, Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 10 Hannon, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 13 Senator continues to yield. 14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The county 15 would be able to file the claim form directly 16 with the insurance carrier? 17 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 19 you, Mr. President. Does those claim forms 20 require the signature of the prisoner? 21 SENATOR HANNON: No. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 23 you, Mr. President, just - 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Hannon, do you continue to yield? 1 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: -- two 3 final questions. One is what's the dollar 4 amount of anticipated reimbursement for these 5 expenses? 6 SENATOR HANNON: It's not known 7 since this is not something that would be 8 asked of everybody but just people who have 9 insurance and we haven't taken any surveys of 10 that. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 12 through you, Mr. President. Do you know how 13 many people in New York State would have been 14 affected by this provision in the course of, 15 let's say the last five years? 16 SENATOR HANNON: No, but from 17 the number of people who had considerable 18 assets and who were incarcerated and who were 19 reported to have received medical services for 20 which the county or city had to pay, I would 21 say that it would be significant. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just a 23 final question as a follow-up, Mr. President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Hannon, do you continue to yield? 1 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senator continues to yield. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Could you 5 define the term "significant" for me, Senator, 6 so I can make some judgment about what we're 7 talking about, hundreds of thousands, 8 millions, ten thousands. 9 SENATOR HANNON: Senator, I 10 wouldn't. However, I would point out that you 11 have not only voted for this on the floor 12 twice in the last two years but also you voted 13 for it correspondingly when it came out of 14 committee. 15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 16 Mr. President. 17 Senator Hannon is absolutely 18 correct. I voted for this bill in the past. 19 Senator, I want to thank you for extending the 20 courtesy of answering my questions on this 21 bill. I know we've been through this before. 22 There were other bills that were on the floor 23 that we hadn't been through before, where I 24 asked a couple of questions and couldn't get 25 any answers. Nobody wanted to answer. 1 I think it's great that we have 2 a chamber where the courtesy is extended even 3 though we've done the bill two or three times 4 before, someone will get up, answer a couple 5 of reasonable questions and give some 6 reasonable answers. 7 Frankly, I couldn't understand 8 what happened about 45 minutes ago, but I 9 appreciate it, Senator. I think you're 10 right. I don't think this is a bad idea. I 11 now fully understand it. 12 I'll vote yes like I did 13 before. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 15 Secretary will read the last section. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 17 President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Leichter, you wish to speak? 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator 21 Hannon would yield. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Hannon, do you yield to a question - 24 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 25 Hannon - 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Leichter -- excuse me, Senator Leichter. I 3 would like to find out if the Senator would 4 yield. 5 SENATOR HANNON: Yes, Mr. 6 President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 Senator yields. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, 10 just one thing struck me as I looked at the 11 bill and I don't believe that was -- this 12 applies to counties and local governments, is 13 that correct? 14 SENATOR HANNON: Counties and 15 cities. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Counties and 17 cities. How about the state? Do we presently 18 have a provision which allows the state to get 19 third-party reimbursement? 20 SENATOR HANNON: I'm not aware 21 of that, and I don't think the situation 22 necessarily arises because if you get 23 incarcerated and you're in a state facility, 24 you're there for more than a year. So this is 25 not a situation where you're temporarily 1 incarcerated and in and out of the city or 2 county jail. So that's -- you're more apt to 3 have individual insurance coverage. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 5 President, if Senator Hannon will be good 6 enough to continue to yield. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Hannon, do you continue to yield? 9 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 11 Senator continues to yield. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 13 understand your response, and I think it makes 14 perfectly good sense what you're trying to do, 15 but I think there is a gap. I can certainly 16 envisage a situation where somebody is 17 sentenced to jail, it may be for life, but 18 maybe for that first year, if they still have 19 some third-party insurance, why shouldn't the 20 state get the benefit of it? 21 All I'm trying to do is take 22 your good idea and have it apply also to those 23 situations - 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Leichter, I don't mean to interrupt the 1 quality of debate or the quantity of the 2 debate but it's a little difficult to hear 3 when you turn with these new microphones. If 4 you're going to turn, if you could stand a 5 little closer toward Senator Onorato, I think 6 the microphone will pick that up but it's 7 cutting in and out, and I know that's 8 difficult for the stenographer to pick that 9 up. 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you, 11 Mr. President. 12 And it's not that I don't like 13 to be near Senator Onorato. It's just as a 14 matter of courtesy one turns towards the 15 Senator with whom one's having the debate or 16 the discussion, but I understand our new 17 'phones don't seem to allow that. So excuse 18 me, Senator Hannon, for having my back to you, 19 but just to repeat very quickly briefly my 20 question. It is, why don't we carry a good 21 idea over to those instances where somebody 22 who is incarcerated in a state facility may 23 have insurance? It may be insurance that's 24 going to last only for another year or even 25 less amount of time, but it would just seem to 1 me to make sense to cover that eventuality. 2 SENATOR HANNON: Senator, since 3 -- I won't reply since that's not a 4 question. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm sorry. 6 I didn't hear the - 7 SENATOR HANNON: It's not a 8 question, so I don't need to reply. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, my 10 question is wouldn't it make sense to have it 11 apply also to the state? Couldn't you 12 envisage one or two or maybe more situations 13 where the state would be entitled to 14 reimbursement? 15 SENATOR HANNON: It's 16 possible. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: And, 18 therefore, don't you think it would make sense 19 to have this bill also apply to the state? 20 SENATOR HANNON: I'm just 21 trying to deal with one problem at a time. 22 There's lots of problems with prisoner health 23 care. This, I thought, was a fair thing so 24 people who have individual wealth and 25 individual coverage are not getting covered at 1 the sacrifice of others who don't have that 2 wealth. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 4 President, on the bill. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 6 Leichter, on the bill. 7 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm sort of 8 sorry about Senator Hannon's response because 9 it would seem to me, Senator, that it's a 10 natural logical progression from what you're 11 trying to do to also include the state. I 12 would say it's more than a progression. It 13 would just seem that any level of government 14 ought to have the benefits that you're 15 providing for cities and counties in this 16 particular bill. It's not a matter that we 17 can only do one problem at a time. This is, 18 first of all, part of the same problem which 19 is to take advantage of third-party 20 reimbursement for levels of government. 21 Secondly, it certainly fits 22 into the context of this bill and it's a 23 simple enough matter for you to amend the bill 24 and say you're going to put in another bill. 25 I mean, it's -- you seem somehow offended that 1 anybody would make the suggestion that 2 anything you put out on the floor, Senator 3 Hannon, is of such perfection that it's 4 impossible for anybody, least of all somebody 5 from the Minority, to presume to think that 6 they could improve upon your handiwork. 7 Well, I think my suggestion and 8 most of my suggestions, frankly, you might not 9 want to take, but here's one that I think 10 makes sense and you obviously -- or obviously 11 you've conceded that there are instances, yes, 12 where the state might benefit if it had the 13 ability to draw down on some of these 14 third-party insurance. 15 So I don't think an idea like 16 mine has to be met with solemnness or as if 17 it's an affront. I think that's what we're 18 about here, trying to work together to improve 19 the job product and help the people of the 20 state of New York. 21 I'm going to vote for this 22 bill, but I certainly hope, Senator Hannon, 23 that you might consider having a bill that 24 would also give this very same benefit to the 25 state of New York. 1 SENATOR HANNON: Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Hannon. 4 SENATOR HANNON: I appreciate 5 the word "perfection", but grudgingly, I must 6 add -- and I don't want you to feel paranoid 7 about this -- that the bill came about because 8 we were trying to help the City health care 9 system, the city of New York, and it came from 10 an article when it was twigged that it said 11 "As the City health care system braces for 12 nearly $820 million in Medicaid cuts proposed 13 by Lieutenant Governor Elizabeth McCaughey, 14 City Hall points to a prison health care 15 system whose costs are borne almost entirely 16 by the City" and it pointed out that one of 17 these rock stars had been in Bellevue and when 18 Bellevue went to bill that rock star's health 19 insurer, the health insurer didn't ignore it 20 because they expected to be informed that the 21 person was now a ward of the City. So to try 22 to benefit that health care system, I thought 23 this was an apt piece of legislation. 24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 25 President. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 Dollinger, on the bill. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 4 President, I appreciate the comments of the 5 chairman of the Health Committee, and I think 6 this bill would -- the spirit and intention of 7 this bill is a good one, but let me just throw 8 out one example that the chairman of the 9 Health Committee might appreciate, which might 10 go even a long way to making this bill work. 11 Most of those health insurers, 12 if they're covered by HMOs, will not reimburse 13 the services if they're not approved by the 14 primary care physician. There's nothing in 15 this bill that waives that requirement. 16 So we get the bill. We submit 17 the bill to the HMO. We say, pay the HMO the 18 cost of the medical services and the HMO says, 19 We're not going to pay those costs. They 20 weren't authorized beforehand by the primary 21 health care provider. The prisoner didn't 22 comply with the requirements of the HMO and, 23 therefore, we're not going to pay the bill. 24 We wouldn't pay it for the prisoner. We're 25 not going to pay it for the city of New York. 1 A little bit more thinking on 2 the bill might produce, I agree with Senator 3 Leichter, a better idea and a way to maybe 4 actually make the bill work. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 6 Secretary will read the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 8 This act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 10 the roll. 11 (The Secretary called the 12 roll.) 13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 14 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 16 bill is passed. 17 Senator Gold, why do you rise? 18 SENATOR GOLD: First to say 19 hello to you. How are you doing? 20 Mr. President, I was out of the 21 room on Calendar 151. I would be grateful if 22 I could be voted in the negative. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: That 24 was laid aside for the day, Senator Gold. So 25 that won't be necessary. 1 SENATOR GOLD: Could you make a 2 note. 3 Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 5 Secretary will continue to read the 6 controversial calendar. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 231, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 1977, an 9 act to amend the Penal Law. 10 SENATOR LARKIN: Lay it aside 11 for the day. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the 13 bill aside for the day. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 276, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 5390, an 16 act to amend the General Municipal Law. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 Secretary - 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: 20 Explanation. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 22 Larkin, an explanation of Calendar Number 276 23 has been requested by Senator Dollinger. 24 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, Senator 25 Dollinger. This bill was -- is a repeater of 1 1997 that was passed 60 to nothing. 2 This bill amends the General 3 Municipal Law in relation to making technical 4 amendments to authorizing nutrition programs 5 to purchase goods, supplies and services. 6 When Chapter 731 of the Laws of 7 1992 was passed, everybody thought that it was 8 totally inclusive but recently the comptroller 9 has requested some certain changes. So due to 10 the failure of Chapter 731 to encompass all of 11 those aspects of it, one of the counties, 12 Orange County in specific, was placed out of 13 the program because what they did was not 14 covered in competitive bids. They were buying 15 it outright from hospitals for Meals on 16 Wheels. 17 If this isn't passed this year, 18 this correction which everybody agrees is 19 essential to the Meals on Wheels program in 20 Orange County, the county will be out of the 21 program for three to four months when their 22 current contract expires. 23 This bill puts in operation 24 what we believe, what the Office of the Aging 25 and what the comptroller believes was the 1 original intent of Chapter 731 of the Laws of 2 1992, which again I would repeat was passed 60 3 to nothing. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 5 you, Mr. President, if Senator Larkin would 6 continue to yield. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 8 Larkin, do you yield to a question? 9 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, Mr. 10 President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 12 Senator yields. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I believe 14 I'm one of those 60 that voted for this bill 15 last time and I don't know whether I asked any 16 questions last time about it. 17 SENATOR LARKIN: You did not, 18 sir. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But you've 20 always been very good in extending me the 21 courtesy of answering questions when I ask 22 them. So let me start with two quick ones. 23 Through you, Mr. President. 24 What's the dollar value that's purchased 25 through the nutrition programs, do you know? 1 SENATOR LARKIN: You know, 2 Senator, if you look at your county is larger 3 than mine, so the dollar value in your county 4 would be larger than mine. Senator Wright's 5 district would be smaller. 6 I think the key thing, Senator, 7 you should -- I would like to remind you of is 8 no matter how they do it, this comes into some 9 federal money. It's going to be spent. It 10 isn't a case of squandering any money. It's 11 these people are doing it with the intent of a 12 direct action. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 14 you, Mr. President. Let me make it very clear 15 up front. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 17 Larkin, do you continue to yield? Senator 18 Larkin. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Meals on 20 Wheels - 21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse 22 me, Senator Dollinger. 23 Senator Larkin, do you continue 24 to yield? 25 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, Mr. 1 President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senator continues to yield. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 5 you, Mr. President. Let me make very clear at 6 the start that the Meals on Wheels, the 7 nutrition programs that you referenced, as far 8 as I'm concerned, get every penny out of every 9 cent of every dollar that they spend on food 10 programs. I'm simply trying to find out how 11 big is the dollar volume of products purchased 12 through nutrition programs that receive state 13 and federal local money that we're now going 14 to waive the public bidding requirement? 15 SENATOR LARKIN: I think if you 16 just take a look at what we're talking about 17 here, let's take Meals on Wheels for the 18 specific, in your county based on what they're 19 purchasing, it could be voluminous. In my 20 county it would be smaller. It all depends on 21 the respective counties and the purchasing 22 that they're going to make. 23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 24 through you, Mr. President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 1 Larkin, do you continue to yield? 2 (Senator Larkin nods head.) 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I believe, 4 Senator Larkin, my own county, there are about 5 3700 Meals on Wheels delivered every day. I 6 assume those meals cost a dollar, dollar and a 7 half apiece. If that's the case, then there's 8 $5,000 a day times seven days a week, that's 9 $35,000 a week times 52 weeks. That's a 10 million and a half dollars in my county alone 11 that we're going to waive the public bidding 12 requirements on. 13 I'm just asking, if this 14 applies statewide, it could be 10-, 20-, 30-, 15 40-, 50-, 60-, 100 million if you include the 16 city of New York. 17 SENATOR LARKIN: Senator, I 18 think if you take it from this point here, we 19 have a Meals on Wheels program in our county 20 -- I would like to just read something for 21 your information. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Sure. 23 SENATOR LARKIN: In one of my 24 counties that I represent, the nutrition 25 program with nine dining sites, 60 home 1 delivery routes serves 490 frail homebound 2 seniors a day. The annual total, 190,000 3 meals home delivered a year, 60,000 in their 4 nine sites. 5 What we're trying to do now is 6 make a cooperative effort so that they can 7 collectively purchase this here. The 8 cooperative effort that they have been 9 striving for will reduce the outcosts to 10 provide these meals, generate additional 11 revenue and let us take care of some other 12 people. It meets every requirement that there 13 is with the federal government, the state, 14 except that one glitch that there was a 15 concern about the competitive bidding, 16 period. 17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 18 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Larkin 19 will - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Larkin, do you yield? 22 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, one 23 more. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 25 Senator yields. 1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think - 2 I understand your position, Senator. My 3 concern is this program, obviously if it's 4 generating 40,000 meals a year in your county, 5 and I think more than a million meals in my 6 county every single year, and obviously 7 throughout the state many millions of meals, 8 my question is, why shouldn't we require them 9 to get the best possible price for what they 10 buy, which is what the public bidding laws 11 were designed to do? 12 SENATOR LARKIN: I think if you 13 go back to the 1992 legislation, Chapter 731, 14 it exempts them from the competitive bidding. 15 We've already done that. What you're saying 16 is you would like to repeal what we did in 17 1992. What we're saying is we're trying to 18 correct a glitch in that piece of 19 legislation. We're not trying to amend it. 20 The legislation was very clear in 1992. It 21 exempted them because they recognized how they 22 could -- conglomerates could purchase this 23 food. 24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. 25 Again through you, Mr. President -- actually 1 just on the bill, Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Dollinger, on the bill. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: As I 5 understand this bill -- and again, this is one 6 of the things that I'm not quite sure is 7 written in the text of the bill but, Senator, 8 I appreciate your explanation and the courtesy 9 you've shown to me in giving me that 10 explanation, but I understand that this 11 applies to cooperative purchasing agreements. 12 This gives local communities the ability to 13 bring all of the nutrition programs into a 14 cooperative and buy from the cooperative 15 rather than require each one to do it 16 separately. 17 That's been educational for 18 me. It makes me better understand the 19 building -- the bill. It gives me a better 20 understanding about why I should vote yes, and 21 I will. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 23 Secretary will read the last section. 24 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 25 This act shall take effect immediately. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 2 the roll. 3 (The Secretary called the 4 roll.) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 7 bill is passed. 8 Senator Paterson, why do you 9 rise? 10 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 11 President, I wanted to explain my vote. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 13 Paterson, to explain his vote. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: I wanted to 15 explain that I am going to vote for Senator 16 Larkin's bill in spite of the fact that he has 17 limited me to three questions and extended 18 Senator Dollinger a fourth question, and the 19 reasons for that are being investigated by my 20 office right now but in the interim, I will 21 vote for this bill. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Paterson will be recorded in the affirmative. 24 Senator Larkin, we do have one 25 substitution. Can I read that? 1 The Secretary will read the 2 substitution. 3 THE SECRETARY: On page 20, 4 Senator Marcellino moves to discharge from the 5 Committee on Environmental Conservation 6 Assembly Print number 1624 and substitute it 7 for the identical Senate Print 6216. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 9 substitution is ordered. 10 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 11 is there any other house... business up 12 there? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 14 is no other housekeeping at the desk, 15 Senator. 16 SENATOR LARKIN: If there's 17 nothing, then I would move that we adjourn 18 until Tuesday, March the 3rd, at 3:00 p.m. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 20 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until 21 tomorrow, Tuesday, October 3rd, at 3:00 p.m. 22 -- excuse me -- March 3rd, at 3:00 p.m. 23 (Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the 24 Senate adjourned.) 25