Monday, May 4, 1998

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 May 4, 1998 11 3:00 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 SENATOR CARL L. MARCELLINO, Acting President 19 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 P R O C E E D I N G S. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 The Senate will come to order. 4 I'd ask everyone present to 5 please rise, including in the balconies, and 6 repeat the Pledge of Allegiance. 7 (The assemblage repeated the 8 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 9 We thank you in the balcony for 10 the help. 11 The invocation today will be 12 given by the Reverend John A. Nelson, of the 13 First Congregational United Church of Christ 14 in Gloversville. Reverend? 15 REVEREND JOHN A. NELSON: Thank 16 you, Senator. 17 Ladies and gentlemen, please 18 join me in a spirit of prayer. 19 God of our fathers and mothers, 20 since the beginning of memory, You call us 21 together to remember and to praise You and 22 since the beginning of time You gather us 23 together to build ways of living together that 24 may honor You and Your vision of a better 25 world. You hold up images of Your will for 1 righteousness, a human community where all 2 have food and shelter, a city where every 3 woman, man and child knows their own dignity, 4 a nation at peace. 5 The vision is so great, and it 6 is an audacious thing we do in this chamber to 7 turn to You in prayer. It is audacious 8 because we are more accustomed to finding ways 9 to use our own power than to seek Yours, but 10 for a moment, we pray, come to us. Set aside 11 our agendas and give us Yours. 12 Loving and creating God, the 13 women and men who assemble in this hall are 14 charged with an awesome task. Give them 15 wisdom and strength that they may become Your 16 hands. Give them wisdom to see where 17 suffering and brokenness have become the 18 people's food, and give them grace to 19 respond. Give them strength to treasure the 20 lives and dreams of the many citizens whom 21 they represent. In the thick of competing 22 interests, we pray for the courage to discern 23 better ways of building your realm. Empower 24 every one of us with Your spirit, a spirit of 25 deep and true compassion that knows our 1 deepest struggles and yet persistently offers 2 us a vision of Shalom, Your world, a world 3 within our reach, when love and justice rule 4 our lives. Calling Your name in our hearts, 5 we pray. Amen. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Thank you. Thank you very much. 8 We'll have the reading of the 9 Journal. 10 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 11 Sunday, May 3rd. The Senate met pursuant to 12 adjournment, Senator Farley in the Chair upon 13 designation of the Temporary President. The 14 Journal of Saturday, May 2nd, was read and 15 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Without objection, the Journal stands approved 18 as read. 19 We have the presentation of 20 petitions. 21 Messages from the Assembly. 22 Messages from the Governor. 23 Reports of standing committees. 24 Reports of select committees. 25 Communications and reports from 1 state officers. 2 Motions and resolutions. The 3 Chair recognizes Senator Meier. 4 SENATOR MEIER: Mr. President, 5 I move that the following bills be discharged 6 from their respective committees and be 7 recommitted with instructions to strike the 8 enacting clause: Senate 7026. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 So ordered. 11 SENATOR MEIER: Mr. President, 12 on page number 14, I offer the following 13 amendments to Calendar Number 6, Senate Print 14 Number 459, and ask that said bill retain its 15 place on the Third Reading Calendar. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Amendments are received and so ordered. 18 SENATOR MEIER: Mr. President, 19 on page number - 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Excuse me, Senator. Gentlemen, we can't hear 22 the numbers for accuracy, please, and ladies. 23 Thank you. 24 SENATOR MEIER: Mr. President, 25 on page 14, I offer the following amendments 1 to Calendar Number 40, Senate Print Number 2 5942-A, and ask that said bill retain its 3 place on the Third Reading Calendar. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Amendments are received and so ordered. 6 SENATOR MEIER: On page number 7 28, I offer the following amendments to 8 Calendar Number 500, Senate Print Number 6332, 9 and ask that said bill retain its place on the 10 Third Reading Calendar. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Amendments received and so ordered. 13 SENATOR MEIER: Mr. President, 14 I wish to call up Senator Saland's bill, Print 15 Number 4519-A, recalled from the Assembly 16 which is now at the desk. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 The Secretary will read. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 413, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 4519-A, 21 an act to amend the Domestic Relations Law. 22 SENATOR MEIER: Mr. President, 23 I now move to reconsider the vote by which 24 this bill was passed. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 1 Secretary will call the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll 3 on reconsideration. ) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47. 5 SENATOR MEIER: Mr. President, 6 I now offer the following amendments. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Amendments are received. 9 Senator Padavan. 10 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you, 11 Mr. President. 12 Would you please remove the 13 sponsor's star from, on page 36, Calendar 14 Numbers 273, 319, 459 and 461, at the request 15 of Senator Paterson as well. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 So ordered, Senator. 18 SENATOR PADAVAN: And, Mr. 19 President, on today's calendar, would you 20 place a sponsor's star on Calendar Number 551, 21 Senate Print Number 3080. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 That shall be done, Senator. 24 SENATOR JOHNSON: At this time 25 may we please have the reading of the 1 non-controversial calendar. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Before we do that, Senator Johnson, may we do 4 some substitutions. 5 SENATOR JOHNSON: Sure. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Thank you. Secretary will please read. 8 THE SECRETARY: On page 5, 9 Senator Lack moves to discharge from the 10 Committee on Judiciary Assembly Bill 9763 and 11 substitute it for the identical First Report 12 Calendar 701. 13 On page 5, Senator Lack moves 14 to discharge from the Committee on Judiciary 15 Assembly Bill Number 9762 and substitute it 16 for the identical First Report Calendar 17 702. 18 On page 6, Senator Holland 19 moves to discharge from the Committee on 20 Housing, Construction and Community 21 Development Assembly Bill Number 1337 and 22 substitute it for the identical First Report 23 Calendar 708. 24 And on page 35, Senator Velella 25 moves to discharge from the Committee on 1 Insurance Assembly Bill Number 10723 and 2 substitute it for the identical Third Reading 3 Calendar 617. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Substitutions received and accepted. 6 Senator Johnson, do you want us 7 to read now the non-controversial calendar? 8 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Mr. 9 President, please go ahead with the 10 non-controversial. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 May we have a reading of the non-controversial 13 calendar, please. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 241, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 2351, an 16 act to amend the Administrative Code of the 17 city of New York. 18 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Lay the bill aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 307, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 2720-A, 23 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation 24 Law, in relation to establishing a state and 25 municipal scrap off-the-road. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 4 This act shall take effect April 1. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Call the roll. 7 (The Secretary called the 8 roll. ) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 The bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 423, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 5563, an 14 act to authorize the Commissioner of General 15 Services to sell and convey. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. 19 This act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Call the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the 23 roll. ) 24 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 1 The bill is passed. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 431, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 4741, an 4 act to amend Chapter 554 of the Laws of 1996. 5 SENATOR JOHNSON: Lay it 6 aside. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Lay the bill aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 465, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 4595-A, 11 an act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, 12 the Education Law and the Personal Property 13 Law. 14 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 Lay the bill aside, please. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 479, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 6263-A, 19 an act in relation to permitting the Church of 20 the New Life, Incorporated to file an 21 application. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it 23 aside. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 25 Lay the bill aside, please. 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 517, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 6206, an 3 act to authorize the village of Horseheads, 4 county of Chemung, to offer an optional 5 20-year retirement. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 We have a home rule message at the desk. Read 8 the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. 10 This act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Call the roll. 13 (The Secretary called the 14 roll. ) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 The bill is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 521, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 6255-B, 20 an act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation 21 to authorizing insurers to offer. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Read the last section. 24 THE SECRETARY: Section 18. 25 This act shall take effect immediately. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Call the roll. 3 (The Secretary called the 4 roll. ) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 The bill is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 534, by member of the Assembly DiNapoli, 10 Assembly Print 9663, an act to amend the 11 Public Health Law, in relation to date by 12 which the annual water supply statement shall 13 be mailed. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Read the last section. 16 SENATOR GOLD: No, hold on. 17 Last section. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Thank you for that permission, sir. Read the 20 last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 22 This act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Call the roll. 25 (The Secretary called the 1 roll. ) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Are you sure about that number? O.K. The bill 5 is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 545, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 1955, an 8 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law and the 9 Social Services Law, in relation to 10 withholding. 11 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Lay the bill aside, please. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 550, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 16 Number 3005-A, an act to amend the County Law, 17 in relation to the autopsy of an inmate of a 18 correctional facility. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 22 This act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Call the roll. 25 (The Secretary called the 1 roll. ) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 The bill is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 552, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print Number 7 3135, an act to amend the General Municipal 8 Law, in relation to point systems for service 9 award programs. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Read the last section, please. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 13 This act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Call the roll. 16 (The Secretary called the 17 roll. ) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 The bill is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 617, substituted earlier today, by the 23 Assembly Committee on Rules, Assembly Print 24 10723, an act to amend the Insurance Law, in 25 relation to homeowners insurance. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Read the last -- oh, Senator Paterson. 3 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside, 4 please. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Lay the bill aside, please. 7 Senator Cook, why do you rise? 8 SENATOR COOK: May I be 9 negative on 479, please? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Senator Cook will be recorded in the negative, 12 without objection, on 479. Senator, that was 13 laid aside. 14 SENATOR COOK: Was it? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 It was laid aside, I'm sorry. 17 You want to do the last one? 18 Senator Johnson. 19 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. 20 President, may we please return to motions and 21 resolutions. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Can we return to motions and resolutions, 24 please. We have a resolution at the desk. 25 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. 1 President, I believe there are two privileged 2 resolutions at the desk, by Senator 3 DeFrancisco. May we please have the titles 4 read and move for their immediate adoption. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Secretary will read. 7 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 8 DeFrancisco, Legislative Resolution 3287, 9 honoring the students of the Fourth Grade 10 Inclusive Class at Ramsdell Elementary School, 11 Jordan, New York, for their participation in 12 the 49th Senate District "Good News! Good 13 Kids!" Youth Responsibility Program. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator DeFrancisco. 16 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Thank 17 you, Mr. President. 18 I'm pleased to have students 19 from the Ramsdell Elementary School in the 20 gallery today, and they are the winners of the 21 elementary section of the "Good News! Good 22 Kids!" Program, and this is a real interesting 23 program that they did that I'm sure everybody 24 is going to listen to carefully, including 25 Senator Lack and Senator Libous. 1 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes, sir. 2 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Basically 3 every year we honor a high school class, an 4 elementary class and a middle school class and 5 a school that puts in a project that shows 6 that good kids are out there doing good things 7 as opposed to the negative news we all too 8 often hear about. This is an interesting 9 thing that happened in Ramsdell Elementary 10 School. It's off the Erie Canal, and they did 11 some clean-up projects, but more importantly 12 in their studies they learned that there was a 13 cannonball in a tree that marked the spot 14 where Lincoln came through Jordan during one 15 of his -- one of the tours through this fine 16 state. That's Abraham Lincoln, and they did 17 some more research on that and study on that 18 and ended up finding the exact location where 19 that historic event took place and, when they 20 found that location, they had Abraham Lincoln 21 himself come to the school area and help plant 22 the tree, and it really was Abraham Lincoln. 23 I saw him; I talked to him. He's from 24 Illinois. By the way, he told me something 25 and it's a little side bar that I thought 1 everyone should hear, because I was really 2 talking to Abraham Lincoln, the man who's been 3 portraying him for 20 years. He's from 4 Illinois; he came to Syracuse, and he said, 5 "It's a little chilly here." He said, "I 6 hear it's usually quite cold in these parts of 7 the country." I said, "Yes, it is." He said, 8 "I understand politicians keep their hands in 9 their own pockets in this particular area 10 because it's so cold." I said, "It was like 11 that back in your day, too, wasn't it, Mr. 12 President?" He said, "Absolutely, absolutely," 13 but a man who looked exactly like him, and 14 sounded like him and I think it was him. 15 So he was there for the 16 celebration. So by this clean-up effort, by 17 planting the tree on the exact spot where this 18 historic event took place, they're not only 19 learning things he did, but they're doing good 20 things for their community. So I salute all 21 the children and the teachers and parents from 22 Ramsdell Elementary School who share the day 23 with me, and congratulate them on their 24 winning the "Good News! Good kids!" project 25 for the elementary students. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 All those in favor of accepting the resolution 3 signify by saying aye. 4 (Response of "Aye.") 5 Opposed nay. 6 (There was no response. ) 7 The resolution is passed. We 8 congratulate the students of Ramsdell 9 Elementary School. Your project is a worthy 10 one. Anyone who appreciates the environment 11 certainly deserves this very much. 12 The Secretary will read. 13 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 14 DeFrancisco, Legislative Resolution 3288, 15 honoring Fourth Grade students of Enrichment 16 Teacher Mary Stanton at Ramsdell Elementary 17 School, Jordan, for their participation in the 18 49th Senate District "Good News! Good Kids!" 19 Youth Responsibility Program. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 All in favor of this resolution, signify by 22 saying aye. 23 (Response of "Aye.") 24 Opposed nay. 25 (There was no response. ) 1 The ayes have it. The 2 resolution is passed. 3 We have one more resolution, 4 Senator Johnson. By -- one more? One more 5 resolution. Secretary will read. 6 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 7 Mendez, Legislative Resolution 3324, honoring 8 Metropolitan Hospital Center as they celebrate 9 National Nurses Recognition Week in New York 10 State. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 On the resolution, all those those in favor 13 signify by saying aye. 14 (Response of "Aye.") 15 Opposed nay. 16 (There was no response. ) 17 The resolution is passed. 18 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. 19 President, may we now go to the controversial 20 calendar and first call up Calendar Number 21 617. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 The Secretary will read. 24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 25 617, substituted earlier today, by member - 1 by the Assembly Committee on Rules, Assembly 2 Print 10723, an act to amend the Insurance 3 Law, in relation to homeowners insurance. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 5 Read the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act - 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 9 I'm sorry. Senator Smith. 10 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. 12 Would the sponsor please yield 13 to one question? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 15 Senator Velella, do you yield to a question? 16 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 18 Senator yields, Senator. 19 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you. 20 Under normal circumstances, when a board is 21 increased, the Minority and the Majority have 22 had the opportunity to make appointments. In 23 this particular instance, only the Majorities 24 will be making additional appointments. Could 25 you tell me if there's a reason why? 1 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, there 2 are four Minority, and I mean by "minority" I 3 mean political minority. There are four 4 political minority appointees, two Senate 5 Minority appointees and two Assembly Minority 6 appointees. You will now have two appointees 7 and we will have five. I think that's a good 8 ratio. 9 SENATOR SMITH: So actually 10 there will be ten to four. 11 SENATOR VELELLA: What? 12 SENATOR SMITH: There'll be ten 13 to four. 14 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, if you 15 add us together with the Assembly Majority, 16 yes, ten-four. 17 SENATOR SMITH: Well, we were 18 doing Majority versus Minority. We won't even 19 get into the other Minority. 20 SENATOR VELELLA: Remember 21 Avis? Harder. I say remember Avis? Try 22 harder. 23 SENATOR SMITH: I'll leave the 24 reply to that one until later. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 1 Thank you very much. 2 Senator Dollinger. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would the 4 Senator yield to just two questions? I was 5 only going to ask him one. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Will you yield to two questions? 8 SENATOR VELELLA: Oh, no, I'll 9 yield one at a time. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 I'm sure he will. 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 13 you, Mr. President, was the five to two ratio 14 a good ratio when you were in the Assembly? 15 SENATOR VELELLA: We didn't 16 even get the distinction of having that. We 17 were told we didn't get any. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But you 19 would -- would now presumably. 20 My second question which 21 perhaps deals with a more substantive one, one 22 that you and I have talked about before and 23 that's the question that affects my neck of 24 the woods with respect to wind-blown wave 25 damage. 1 I note that there is a 2 requirement in here that talks about wind 3 storm insurance notices, presumably to require 4 the Commissioner to give greater specificity 5 in the policies that are sold about the 6 effects of wind -- wind storm damages. I 7 think you and I have talked about this before, 8 my concern about wind-blown wave damage in the 9 Great Lakes. It's not a flood. The water 10 doesn't rise to flood level, but yet when the 11 waves come up on Lake Ontario they pound the 12 south shore, raise the water, and it has the 13 effect of acting like a flood even though the 14 water level isn't up. 15 Does this, in part, address 16 that? 17 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, I don't 18 know that this, in part, addresses the flood 19 action that you're talking about, the wave 20 action, but our research and our staff has 21 told us, and I don't know if you have a 22 different message from the fed's, that the 23 federal flood insurance does cover wave action 24 and has been changed apparently since our last 25 discussion to include wave action, so that 1 that would be covered in flood insurance and 2 that they are doing some very aggressive 3 programs, as I understand, in your community 4 to try and encourage people to sign up for the 5 federal insurance that's available to them. 6 The notices that we talked 7 about in this bill deal with some things that 8 I have a little bit of a problem with and that 9 probably most home owners in the state don't 10 realize, and that is that some of the 11 companies have slipped in deductibles that 12 weren't there before, and that when you have a 13 policy and you have this hurricane damage, 14 there are some -- and wind storm damages, 15 there are some deductibles that didn't apply 16 before and the policy terms have been changed, 17 so we are asking that when those terms are 18 altered that notice be given to the 19 policyholders. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. O.K. 21 So this, again through you, Mr. President, 22 this will - 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Senator, do you continue to yield? 25 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 He yields. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: This 4 requires greater -- requires the Commissioner 5 to come up with a notice that will give home 6 owners greater specificity and better language 7 that describes exactly what is covered in a 8 wind storm and whether there's a deductible, 9 if so how much it is and what it applies to, 10 whether just the wind storm value or the 11 overall value of the house. 12 SENATOR VELELLA: Exactly. 13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is that 14 correct? 15 Thank you, Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. 19 This act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Call the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the 23 roll. ) 24 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 1 The bill is passed. 2 May we continue reading the 3 controversial calendar in the regular order, 4 please. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 241, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 2351, an 7 act to amend the Administrative Code of the 8 city of New York and the Emergency Tenant 9 Protection Act of 1974. 10 SENATOR PATERSON: 11 Explanation. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Senator Leibell, an explanation has been 14 asked. 15 SENATOR LEIBELL: Thank you, 16 Mr. President. 17 This bill would amend the 18 Emergency Tenant Protection Act to provide 19 that a tenant's failure to file a New York 20 State and New York City Resident Income Tax 21 return from the tenant's rent-regulated 22 apartment shall result in a legal 23 determination that such tenant does not 24 occupy the unit as his or her primary 25 residence. This bill would also add a new 1 section to the Tax Law to provide for 2 verification of the resident's filing 3 address. 4 There is little question that 5 the protections afforded under New York 6 State's rent regulation statutes are intended 7 for the benefits of New York residents who 8 live in their rent-regulated apartments as 9 their primary residence. No one can 10 rationally assert that the benefits that are 11 granted under our state's rent regulation 12 laws, intended to ease the burden on New 13 York's families to find affordable housing 14 within New York, should be extended to persons 15 who do not live in the rent-regulated 16 jurisdiction. This concept has been a part of 17 the law of rent regulation as long as there 18 has been rent regulation. 19 That is why the Emergency 20 Tenant Protection Act requires that a rent 21 regulated unit be maintained as a tenant's 22 primary residence in order for the unit to be 23 eligible for rent regulation. However, 24 despite this clear intent of the law, 25 enforcement has been almost non-existent, and 1 no law is effective or will be obeyed unless 2 it is enforced. 3 This legislation would provide 4 for such enforcement of the primary residence 5 law, by permitting the verification of the 6 tenant's primary residence address through a 7 review of his filing address on the tenant's 8 city and state income tax returns. Pursuant 9 to -- to this bill, the failure to file such 10 returns with the address of the rent-regulated 11 apartment shall result in a finding that the 12 unit is not used as a tenant's primary 13 residence. 14 It should be noted that case 15 law presently allows for the inspection of tax 16 returns in determining whether the unit should 17 be eligible for coverage under the applicable 18 rent protection regulations. This legislation 19 would codify this case law and expressly 20 provide for this verification information to 21 be applied to the eligibility sections of the 22 ETPA. 23 One additional comment that 24 needs to be made is the fact that the very 25 integrity of the rent regulation system 1 depends upon the fact that it is helping our 2 citizens. The very purpose of rent regulation 3 is to help citizens of a community find 4 affordable housing in that community. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Read the... Senator Paterson, why do you rise? 7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 8 President, if Senator -- if Senator Leibell 9 would yield for a question. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Senator, do you yield? 12 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Senator yields, and might I ask that we have 15 some order in the chamber, please. 16 Senator. 17 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 18 Mr. President. 19 Senator, the court of competent 20 jurisdiction, as it is designated under the 21 law, is right now the arbiter of whether or 22 not a tenant is actually acting as the primary 23 resident. Is there anything in the law as it 24 stands right now, the Emergency Tenant 25 Protection Act, that restricts the court of 1 competent jurisdiction from examining the 2 income tax returns to determine whether or 3 not, by failure to pay state or city income 4 taxes, that the individual is not a primary 5 resident? 6 SENATOR LEIBELL: No, it's my 7 understanding there is not, Senator. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 9 Senator. 10 Mr. President, if the Senator 11 would yield for another question. 12 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Senator yields. 15 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, then, 16 that is the case, Senator, and especially 17 considering that it appears in this 18 legislation that a finding that the tenant did 19 pay state and city income tax that that will 20 not automatically qualify the tenant as a 21 primary resident; that's how it's described in 22 the legislation, then I submit to you, 23 Senator, that wouldn't it then be best that 24 among the other variables that the court of 25 competent jurisdiction is considering that we 1 just leave the law the way it is right now and 2 let the court decide? 3 SENATOR LEIBELL: I don't think 4 so, for this reason: I think that this is such 5 a significant issue that's before us and, as 6 you know, we have that rent regulatory statute 7 because it is perceived by many that there is 8 a housing crisis within the city of New York. 9 If that is the case, we wish to make 10 absolutely certain, leave no stone unturned, 11 to make certain that those people who are 12 occupying those units that are, in fact, to be 13 regulated by our regulatory machinery would, 14 in fact, be residents and that, in fact, that 15 they are not living in another jurisdiction 16 possibly outside of the state of New York 17 where that would be their primary residence. 18 The purpose of this legislation 19 is to make sure that that is, in fact, the 20 case, that there would be no question, that if 21 it should be -- go before any court, there 22 would be no question as to the intent of this 23 legislative body. 24 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, 25 Senator. 1 Mr. President, if the Senator 2 would continue to yield. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Senator, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Certainly. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 He continues to yield, sir. 8 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, 9 what I don't understand is that had you made 10 this issue a threshold issue by allowing the 11 filing of a state and city income tax form to 12 have been the determining factor as to what 13 would establish the primary residency, then I 14 can honestly tell you I think I would have to 15 vote for the bill because now -- or even if I 16 didn't vote for the bill, I would understand 17 it better, because now you have defined 18 exactly what would be the terms in which a 19 person would establish residency; but what 20 you've done is you've created a qualifier that 21 eliminates one that does not pay state and 22 city income tax, and yet the actual 23 fulfillment of the requirement doesn't entitle 24 the tenant to any more protection than in the 25 first place; so then we'd have to go back to 1 the court of competent jurisdiction anyway and 2 examine telephone bills, utility bills and 3 other variable factors. 4 So what I'm just asking is, why 5 did you not, if you -- if you were trying in 6 the legislation -- and I can understand what 7 you're trying to accomplish and certainly I 8 have some -- some feeling that the primary 9 residency was the real protection that the 10 Emergency Tenant Protection Act was designed 11 to -- to assist, but at the same time my 12 question to you is, why have you left part of 13 the -- why have you left part of the 14 determination open at the same time you've 15 created in a sense a nullifier through the 16 income tax process? 17 SENATOR LEIBELL: If I may, 18 Senator, there are many factors I'm certain 19 that could be considered, especially utility 20 bills, driver's licenses, these factors can be 21 considered but, as you know, there are many 22 ways to get around those, for instance, a 23 driver's license which is not as easy to do 24 when you're talking in terms of a tax return. 25 A tax return is really quite specific. It's 1 not easily gone around. It's not easily 2 subverted. 3 In order to guarantee that this 4 housing stock is open to those who are, in 5 fact, residents, this certainly, I believe, 6 would have to be the safest way to proceed. 7 SENATOR PATERSON: O.K. Thank 8 you very much, Senator. 9 Mr. President, on the bill. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 11 Senator Paterson, on the bill. 12 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 13 President, sometimes this kind of an argument 14 is made in an almost cynical or satirical way, 15 but I mean this in all sincerity. Senator 16 Leibell, in many respects, outlined what would 17 really be the thrust of my argument even 18 though he disagrees with me. His noting on 19 the record that the specifics of the income 20 tax return, and certainly in our society, the 21 -- the attention to detail as we are reading 22 about in the newspapers, perhaps too much 23 attention to detail at times, demonstrates 24 that this would be a very hard roadblock to 25 get around for someone who is trying to 1 establish their primary residence. 2 So, therefore, I would 3 certainly understand it if the thrust of the 4 legislation enured to the benefit of the 5 tenant as much as to the detriment, whereby if 6 the person could establish that they have paid 7 their personal income tax on the city or state 8 level from that residence, that that's the 9 primary residency, but I think to have 10 legislation that is at best confusing by the 11 fact that it -- it can eliminate or nullify 12 the primary tenancy on one hand but doesn't 13 have any access to verifying it, is a piece of 14 legislation that we suggest needs to be 15 reworked. 16 We certainly understand Senator 17 Leibell's honest concern about individuals who 18 are probably taking the places of others who 19 would be qualifying and deserving to be 20 tenants in New York City and primary 21 residents, but at the same time to have a 22 system that has no reward and at the same time 23 great penalty, and that the reason for it is 24 because of the specificity of the way income 25 taxes are applied in our country, in our 1 opinion, creates in a sense an imbalanced 2 scale and, for that reason, 19 Senators in 3 1996 voted against this piece of legislation, 4 and this is the same legislation that we voted 5 on at that time, and we recommend its defeat 6 today. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Read the last -- Senator Gold. 9 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, Mr. 10 President, I've gotten a lot of civics lessons 11 over the years in this chamber, and I have 12 also been the beneficiary, if you want to use 13 that word, of many lectures from my colleagues 14 on the other side about representative 15 government, and I've been told that -- as a 16 matter of fact, almost an Edmund Burke 17 philosophy coming from that side on the -- and 18 the anti-Edmund Burke questioning whether it's 19 your industry alone as well as your intellect 20 that you're supposed to give constituents, and 21 what do they want back home, and during that 22 time I think it's really classic because -- I 23 don't want to offend anyone on the other side, 24 but I don't recall any member of the 25 Republican Party in this house being the 1 chairman of the Housing Committee who ever 2 represented a district in the city of New York 3 and, of course, that sets up the classic good 4 guy/bad guy case, as we all know, and if we 5 are going to talk about representative 6 government, everybody in this chamber knows 7 that the reason that there's so much 8 opposition here is because those who represent 9 these tenants, such as Senator Paterson, can't 10 possibly support this legislation, and it's 11 not a question of not supporting it because we 12 are anti-landlord or anti-this and we're 13 afraid of a tenants' group here and there. I 14 think some of the people on this side of the 15 aisle have, over the years, stood up and been 16 very courageous. But the bottom line here is 17 that the reason that this bill has such a long 18 legislative history is because, as most of us 19 understand, it will have an even longer 20 legislative history because it ain't goin' 21 nowhere, and the problem is that it is a one 22 sided law, and most of the things we do here, 23 you know people talk about partisan politics 24 and very few people realize that this 25 distinguished body votes 18-, 1900 times a 1 year very often, and if you take a look at 2 those roll calls the vast majority of them are 3 unanimous because both sides of the aisle are 4 trying to do the right thing, and most of the 5 things we do benefit the people in a very fair 6 way. 7 I think, having said that, I 8 will vote with my distinguished leader, 9 Senator Paterson, because this doesn't handle 10 it in an even way. It's an invitation by one 11 side of the aisle to gain favor with one part 12 of the constituency that's involved with this 13 issue, and to create a rift right down the 14 middle with this side of the aisle, and that 15 constituency. But it's O.K., because you do 16 the same thing for your people. 17 Be interesting to see how your 18 New York City members vote on this, and I 19 always find it interesting that in those 20 situations where the majority party in this 21 house offers legislation which opposes 22 interests in New York City, every once in a 23 while we pick up a New York City vote on your 24 side, and I wonder why in conference you don't 25 listen to those votes. 1 But I -- having said that I 2 adopt the philosophy of my leader, Senator 3 Paterson, and I will vote in the negative. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 5 President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Senator Leichter. 8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 9 President. Senator Leibell, I could support 10 this bill - 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Excuse me, Senator. Are you speaking on the 13 bill? 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 16 O.K. Senator Leichter, on the bill. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 18 Leibell, I could support this bill if it did 19 what I think you intended to do, but I think 20 the bill suffers from a drafting -- or I won't 21 say "error", but incompleteness, and maybe for 22 that purpose, if you'd be so kind and yield to 23 a question. 24 SENATOR LEIBELL: Certainly. 25 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, as I 1 read - 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: I 3 thought you were on the bill, Senator. 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: I was on the 5 bill, but now I'm asking him a question. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 You're getting off the bill; is that what 8 you're telling me? 9 Senator Leibell, do you yield 10 for a question? 11 SENATOR LEIBELL: Certainly. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 He yields, Senator Leichter. 14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you, 15 Mr. President. Thank you, my good friend, 16 Senator Leibell. 17 Senator, what happens if 18 somebody files a tax return two days late - 19 no question under my example, this is somebody 20 lives in New York, every night he sleeps in 21 his rent-controlled or rent-stabilized 22 apartment, but he files his return two days 23 late? As I read that bill, he would lose his 24 right to remain as a rent-stabilized or as a 25 rent-controlled tenant. 1 SENATOR LEIBELL: To respond to 2 that, Senator, if he had filed for an 3 extension? 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: He didn't 5 file for an extension. He did what, 6 unfortunately, some people do. He filed 7 late. People do that, he's two days late. 8 He's committed an offense. He's probably 9 going to have to pay interest and a penalty 10 but, as I read this bill, he loses his 11 apartment. 12 SENATOR LEIBELL: That would 13 not be correct. Commissioner of Taxation and 14 Finance would have the ability to look into 15 that, to examine that and make a 16 determination, and I would suggest to you that 17 it's not a question of two days that we're 18 talking about. 19 Senator, if I thought there was 20 some way that I could improve this bill to 21 your liking, I'd be happy to talk about it 22 without gutting it, but I think the issue is 23 not really a question of two days. We're not 24 looking for something de minimus even though, 25 in fact, that may have been something wrong. 1 That's not our purpose. 2 Our purpose is to find those 3 people out there actually defrauding the 4 system, and we would wish to turn that housing 5 over to your constituents who might need it. 6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 7 Leibell, we agree on the purpose. The purpose 8 is fine, but you and I, as we vote on this 9 bill, have to consider specific language, and 10 the Commissioner of Taxation doesn't have 11 super power of the Legislature. He can't say, 12 Well, they didn't mean that. 13 Let me just read exactly what 14 you've written and again ask you whether, in 15 fact, my example doesn't mean that this long 16 time New York City resident would lose his 17 apartment or at least would lose his right to 18 be a rent-controlled or rent-stabilized 19 apartment. 20 It says, For determining 21 primary residence... finding that the tenant 22 has not occupied the unit... his or her 23 residence -- I'm sorry, here it is. It's on 24 line 8, "*** purposes of determining primary 25 residence using this chapter, the failure to 1 file a New York City resident income tax 2 return by an individual required by law to 3 file such a return***" then the only exception 4 is that if you have an extension, so if you 5 don't have an extension, you have not filed a 6 return. You've not made a timely filing of 7 the return. 8 There's nothing in the law 9 which says that the Commissioner of Taxation 10 can waive it. Suppose he's a week late; 11 suppose he's a month late. Suppose he's two 12 months late. Senator, I think with all due 13 respect, I mean I think my point is well 14 taken, if I have to say so myself, but - 15 SENATOR LEIBELL: Got it, 16 Senator, if you did. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: But in all 18 fairness, Senator, if this bill said that if 19 somebody filed a state or, for that matter, 20 even a federal income tax return and he states 21 his address to be other than where he or she 22 occupies an apartment that is under rent 23 control or rent stabilization, I will vote for 24 that bill, but that's -- I think that's what 25 you intend to say, but I think that the way 1 you've set it up, I think you've really left 2 a -- a loophole, if you will, or at least 3 worse than a loophole, you've caught people in 4 the mesh of your bill that really, you don't 5 intend to get. You're trying to get the 6 people who have a rent-controlled apartment 7 but they're off in Connecticut or Florida and 8 they're paying taxes there. They shouldn't be 9 getting the benefits of the rent control law. 10 I agree with you, but I think that your bill 11 as it's written is going to apply to people 12 who clearly are New York residents who have 13 committed the mistake or the error of having 14 filed late, and who now will lose their rent 15 controlled apartment. 16 SENATOR LEIBELL: Well, 17 Senator, it's not -- first, I'd be interested 18 to see if you're going to be submitting a bill 19 espousing what you've just said. 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, may 21 I just interrupt and ask you a question? 22 SENATOR LEIBELL: Will that be 23 forthcoming, Senator, your bill? 24 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Let me 25 answer it this way, Senator. 1 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes. You 2 have - 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: You've been 4 here a number of years. How many Leichter 5 bills have you seen on the calendar? I have 6 to -- I don't think -- I can't remember one, 7 the last three, four years, so my putting in a 8 bill, Senator, if it's a good idea, you do it 9 and I'm not going to waste my time or anybody 10 else's time - 11 SENATOR LEIBELL: Well, Senator, 12 as chairman of Housing, I'd be very interested 13 in seeing that bill, I can assure you, but in 14 answer to your question, you are correct, I 15 have not been on the Leichter watch, I have 16 not been looking for your legislation, you are 17 correct, but I would be more than happy to 18 entertain that bill if it came through. It 19 would be shocking, but I'd be happy to 20 entertain it. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I'm 22 telling you right - 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Senator, do you continue to yield? 25 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, I do. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 2 Senator Leibell continues to yield. 3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 4 can assure you, you put in a bill that says if 5 somebody files a tax return listing his 6 primary residence other than New York -- New 7 York State, that he or she then can 8 conclusively presume not to have their New 9 York -- that New York apartment as their 10 primary residence, I'll vote for it. You 11 don't need me to put the bill in, because my 12 bill isn't going to go anywhere. Even though 13 you -- even though you'll put the bill out, 14 there'll be some gnome on the third floor 15 who's going to say, Leichter, Democrat, no. 16 This bill can't go, so let's not waste our 17 time. 18 I'm just suggesting change your 19 bill that way, and probably most of those 19 20 votes against it will become in favor, and 21 I'll certainly be one in favor. All I'm 22 suggesting is correct what I think is an 23 oversight in your bill, or I think a wording 24 of the bill that may lead to an injustice, and 25 you could very simply have the bill accomplish 1 your purpose by stating what I just said, say 2 any filing of a tax return which lists a 3 primary residence other than the person's 4 claimed rent-controlled or rent-stabilized 5 apartment proves that the person is -- that 6 New York is not his primary residence, and you 7 got it. 8 SENATOR LEIBELL: I think that 9 this is a strawman that we're dealing with 10 here, and begs the real issue. This is a, I 11 think a bill that is quite fair and it 12 certainly in no means intends to entrap anyone 13 who is on a two-day delay. In fact, a 14 certification, I believe, that would come from 15 the Commissioner would -- would address that 16 and I'd be shocked if they had opened any tax 17 returns that fast, but I don't -- I think this 18 legislation is well crafted. 19 I certainly, as I say, would be 20 happy to entertain any additional concerns you 21 may have legislatively, but I think this is a 22 good bill. This bill has been before us 23 before. It's been passed in this house 24 before, and I am certainly satisfied that it 25 would go a long way towards helping us with 1 some of our problems in the city. 2 Thank you. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. 6 This act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Call the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the 10 roll. ) 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Calculate and announce the negatives, please, 13 and the results. 14 Announce the results, please. 15 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded 16 in the negative on Calendar Number 241 are 17 Senators Abate, Connor, Gentile, Gold, 18 Goodman, Kruger, Lachman, Leichter, Marchi, 19 Markowitz, Nanula, Onorato, Rosado and 20 Santiago. Ayes 42, nays 14. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 22 The bill is passed. 23 Senator Johnson, Bill 24 Number -- Calendar Number 441 has been laid 25 aside for the day at the request of the 1 sponsor. Can we move on to Calendar Number 2 465. 3 Senator Onorato, why do you 4 rise? 5 SENATOR ONORATO: Mr. 6 President, on Thursday I was out of the 7 chamber when the vote was taken on Calendar 8 Number 539, Senate Number 647. If I had been 9 in here for the vote, I would like the record 10 to indicate that I would have voted "no" on 11 the bill. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 The record will so indicate. 14 Secretary will read. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 465, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 4595-A, 17 an act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, 18 the Education Law and the Personal Property 19 Law. 20 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: 21 Explanation. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 Senator Saland, an explanation has been 24 requested. 25 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 1 President. 2 Mr. President, what this bill 3 would do would be to convert the current 4 status of security personnel on SUNY campuses, 5 generally known as public safety officers, to 6 police officers, and this year's version of 7 the bill is somewhat different than last 8 year's, and I'd like to take a minute or two 9 to explain what those differences are, perhaps 10 with the idea of abbreviating the debate. 11 As many will recall, there was 12 an effort to try and define the geographical 13 area of the police officers who would be 14 appointed by the State University, and to 15 narrow somewhat the language which last year 16 talked in terms of their jurisdiction 17 including a public highway which crossed or 18 abuts the SUNY campus property. 19 We have described that language 20 somewhat differently, talking in terms of - 21 and I'm looking at subsection (d) of Section 1 22 on the third page of the bill which makes 23 reference to any portion of a public highway 24 which crosses or abuts such property, and 25 then, interestingly enough, there were 1 conflicting concerns as is the case around 2 here from time to time, with regard to the 3 status of the relationship between a SUNY 4 campus and the municipality within which it is 5 located, some concerns being expressed that 6 there was in some instances a desire for some 7 type of mutual or reciprocal agreement whereby 8 the SUNY police would be authorized to offer 9 assistance to local police and the converse 10 being true, the great concern in some quarters 11 that there be no unauthorized involvement by 12 SUNY police in matters which would otherwise 13 be within the realm off campus of the work of 14 municipal police, and to that end I would call 15 everybody's attention to page 8, lines 40 16 through 45, which basically talks in terms of 17 subject to the approval of the chancellor, 18 each -- the president of each campus would 19 have the ability to enter into agreements with 20 adjoining law enforcement agencies 21 establishing protocols which would basically 22 define the interaction of campus police within 23 a municipality and in conjunction with local 24 police where desired, and I probably have 25 somewhere in the area of in excess of five 1 dozen supportive letters from various and 2 sundry sheriffs' departments, police 3 agencies. A number of those agencies are 4 agencies in which they do have SUNY campuses 5 and there seems to be, at least in those that 6 I have seen, a ringing endorsement of the idea 7 of making the SUNY police in those communities 8 the SUNY -- I'm sorry, security personnel in 9 those communities police officers as well. 10 With that, I'll be more than 11 happy to yield to any questions that anybody 12 might have. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 Senator Hoffmann, please. 15 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I wonder if 16 Senator Saland would yield for a question, 17 please. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 Senator, do you yield? 20 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 21 President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 23 He yields. 24 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you. 25 Has -- to your knowledge, Senator Saland, has 1 the New York State Sheriffs Association 2 withdrawn its opposition to this? 3 SENATOR SALAND: I have not 4 seen a memo in opposition from the sheriffs 5 this year; that's not to say that they're 6 not. I have seen a memo in opposition from 7 the Police Conference. 8 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you. 9 Thank you, Senator Saland. 10 Mr. President, on the bill. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 12 Senator Hoffmann, on the bill. 13 SENATOR HOFFMANN: It is my 14 understanding that the Sheriffs Association 15 and the Police Conference continues its 16 objection to this bill. There are a number of 17 reasons that they have cited in the 18 memorandums last year which they apparently 19 are standing by this year. 20 Just in the very briefest 21 fashion, if I could encapsule it in part by 22 saying that in every campus there is already a 23 sheriff's department or a local law 24 enforcement entity prepared to work in 25 conjunction with the campus police officers. 1 They point out the disparity in the training 2 between campus security officers and municipal 3 or county police officials, and they also 4 make, I think, a rather telling argument about 5 accountability which I would just read to my 6 colleagues, from the 1997 police memo and if 7 this -- excuse me, Sheriffs Association memo 8 and, if this is out of date, I apologize, but 9 it is my impression that it is accurate. 10 I read that it is a very 11 dangerous thing to give the state's police 12 powers to officers who are shielded from 13 accountability to the public by layers of 14 bureaucrats, none of whom anywhere in the 15 chain are chosen by the electorate and, while 16 I applaud Senator Saland for his concern for 17 the well-being of the college students on the 18 SUNY campuses and for people in the area who 19 might be affected by criminal activity and the 20 desire to see more people able to respond to 21 criminal activity, there is still a question 22 about disparity in training as well as 23 disparity in accountability, and I think that 24 we owe it to the men and women of this state 25 who are sworn law enforcement officials and 1 who count the Police Conference or the 2 Sheriffs Association as their voices here in 3 this Capitol, I think it behooves us to take a 4 more serious look at this measure. 5 So at this point I am still 6 prepared to cast a no vote. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 Senator Leichter. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 10 President, if Senator Saland would yield 11 please? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Senator, do you yield? 14 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 15 President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Senator yields. 18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I 19 think it was somewhat telling that, in your 20 explanation of the bill, you never told us why 21 this is needed. 22 SENATOR SALAND: Well, I'll be 23 more than happy to review some of the things 24 that we've discussed previously. I was 25 trying, and perhaps I misjudged and I owe the 1 chamber an apology, not to prolong the debate. 2 Let me give you some of the 3 things which I think would justify a concern 4 and I mentioned this, I believe, in last 5 year's debate: Back in 1993 or 1994 I chaired 6 a task force which dealt with the subject of 7 campus crime, and we held hearings at a number 8 of locales throughout the state and, in each 9 and every instance, one of the things that 10 came up -- and I say in each and every 11 instance, and it came up not merely from the 12 public safety officers but student personnel 13 and administration as well -- was the need for 14 law enforcement police status for campus 15 security personnel. 16 Some of the things of interest 17 and I'll make reference to Senator Hoffmann's 18 comments. What happens far too often is that 19 the requests for response at SUNY campuses 20 become in a number of areas, in a number of 21 situations, very low priority requests and the 22 local police or local sheriff's department 23 will concentrate their resources elsewhere and 24 very often that hampers the ability to pursue 25 a criminal investigation because, as you know, 1 in order to pursue a criminal investigation 2 the sooner you get on the evidentiary trail 3 the sooner you take your statements, the 4 likelier you will have a successful 5 prosecution, and while I'm at it, I'd like to 6 just dispel one other thing and then I'll get 7 into some statistics which I think you will 8 find interesting. 9 There was talk about a lack of 10 training. SUNY personnel currently are 11 trained at the State Police Academy. They 12 receive virtually the same training as 13 municipal police receive, and they receive 14 some 531 hours of training and, if you'd like, 15 I could share with you from the manual what 16 they receive -- training in firearms, training 17 with arrest procedures, virtually identical 18 with certain, I would assume, accommodations 19 to the difference of dealing with a student 20 population than perhaps dealing with the 21 population at large. 22 But I think your question 23 implies the need, and I have before me a chart 24 of crime statistics at the SUNY campuses, and 25 there for the last five years the most recent 1 being 1996, and what it shows is an increase 2 in robberies, an increase in burglaries, an 3 increase in crimes involving dangerous 4 weapons. Yes, in some areas there's been a 5 diminution in crime. Certainly it has not 6 been uniform, and certainly not unlike the 7 situation that exists today where we have seen 8 a diminution in some instances in crime data, 9 nobody is out clamoring for us to do away in 10 our localities or at the state or county level 11 with either municipal police, State Police or 12 county sheriffs. 13 Very similarly, nothing has 14 changed in terms of the need and the desire to 15 have status apply to SUNY security personnel. 16 There's a number of issues of territoriality 17 here, but I -- as I said earlier, I'll be very 18 happy to share and I'll read them into the 19 record at length, some five-plus dozen law en 20 forcement agencies, some of them in SUNY 21 communities, some not, that cross the spectrum 22 -- municipal, city police, county sheriffs' 23 offices all supporting this effort. 24 So we've tried to be as 25 accommodating as possible. We tried to 1 address some of the issues that were raised 2 during the course of your debate last year and 3 others. We believe this is a carefully 4 constructed bill, one which has moved out of 5 committee in the Assembly, I understand, and 6 we're hopeful that we're going to see 7 agreement on this bill and passage this 8 session. 9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Excuse me, 10 Mr. President. If Senator Saland continues to 11 yields. 12 Senator, I looked through the 13 bill quickly and I didn't see it. Is there a 14 provision in the bill which requires the 15 training which you state is now given? 16 SENATOR SALAND: I believe you 17 will find that in -- in law. I'm not sure if 18 you're going to find it here. I do have the 19 Public Safety Training Academy Manual which 20 does at length set forth what the training 21 is. 22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, that's 23 -- but my question is there's nothing in this 24 law or bill. 25 SENATOR SALAND: Nothing that 1 -- nothing that we've amended and, in all 2 candor, Senator Leichter, I haven't read this 3 with the provision with attempting to verify 4 where that is. I'm looking now at Section 355 5 of the Education Law, and that provides that 6 any person appointed a peace officer -- and 7 that's the current status for security 8 personnel, public safety officer at SUNY 9 campuses -- must have satisfactorily completed 10 or complete within one year of date of his 11 appointment a course of law enforcement 12 training approved by the Municipal Police 13 Training Council in consultation with the 14 university. 15 SENATOR LEICHTER: But, Senator 16 Saland, I mean, if you continue to yield, 17 that's my point. We now in the law provide 18 for training of peace officers. Now, you're 19 making them police officers. You're not - 20 I'm sure you're not implying that police 21 officers need not have any greater training 22 than peace officers. 23 Now, maybe it's in some other 24 provision of the law, but it would seem to me 25 that that would be important. Even though 1 that training is now provided, if it's not 2 required by law, it certainly creates a 3 problem. 4 So, if you continue to yield. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 6 Senator Saland, do you continue to yield? 7 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, I will, 8 if I may respond. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 10 You may respond. 11 SENATOR SALAND: Again, I'm 12 told that the 531 hours is comparable in terms 13 of numbers to what the local police receive as 14 part of their training, and I must share with 15 you that this will give you some comfort and 16 this is only in part, some of the items, and 17 this is one of 11 parts that are contained in 18 the SUNY basic summary for the training course 19 under "criminal investigation". 20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 21 Saland, excuse me, if -- I don't mean to 22 interrupt you, except I do, but that - 23 I don't doubt that the training 24 as you describe it is sufficient. I would 25 just think it would be wise, in the law, to 1 require that training be given because if it's 2 not required to be given, I can see some 3 campus determining that, for whatever reason, 4 they're not going to provide the training. 5 So that's -- that's the point 6 I'm making. 7 SENATOR SALAND: Senator 8 Leichter, the law does require that there be 9 training, and the training has to be approved 10 by the Municipal Police Training Council, and 11 that training is currently what is described 12 in far greater length and in far greater 13 detail under the Public Safety Training 14 Academy rules and regulations, and my 15 assumption would be -- and I think it's a 16 reasonable one -- to the extent that there 17 would be any additional training by reason of 18 their police status required, that that would 19 be part of that course and, if it gives you 20 any great comfort, I'm sure that that 21 accommodation could be reached, but I 22 certainly think it's implied. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Excuse me, 24 Senator Saland, if you continue to yield. 25 Where, in the bill, and that was my initial 1 question, and maybe - 2 SENATOR SALAND: It's in the 3 existing law, existing law, and I have a copy, 4 Section 355 of the Education Law. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: But that 6 referred to peace officers. 7 SENATOR SALAND: The section 8 deals with the appointment of security 9 officers, and it certainly dictates what the 10 response has been by the SUNY administration 11 by way of the creation of this particular 12 training course and if, in fact, that section 13 should be amended to reflect the word "police 14 officers", that's a relatively simple thing to 15 do, and I'd be more than happy to assure you 16 that it will be done. 17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you, 18 Senator. If you would be good enough to 19 continue to yield. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 Senator, do you continue to yield? 22 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr. 23 President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 25 He continues to yield. 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Police 2 officers are authorized to make an arrest 3 anywhere in the state if he has reason to 4 believe that a crime has been committed, as 5 opposed to peace officers. Are these peace 6 officers going to have the same power? 7 SENATOR SALAND: You will 8 recall in my earlier remarks I made reference 9 to page 1 of the bill about the geographic 10 employment of a person appointed under this 11 section. Their jurisdiction would be limited 12 to campuses, SUNY campuses. 13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Excuse me. 14 Senator - 15 SENATOR SALAND: The only way 16 their jurisdiction could be increased would be 17 under the section which I referred to you on 18 page 8 which provides for the ability to enter 19 into a protocol with the local municipality to 20 provide some, for lack of a more appropriate 21 term, mutual aid where a community would want 22 that. 23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 24 Saland, again, if you will continue to yield. 25 I understand that provision provides for what 1 their place of employment is but I don't think 2 that changes the general law of the powers of 3 a police officer to make an arrest anywhere in 4 the state. All that says is they're going to 5 be employed in their campus. That's fine, but 6 as police officers, they now have all the 7 powers that are given to police officers and 8 one of those is to make an arrest anywhere 9 within the state. 10 SENATOR SALAND: If you would 11 look at pages 8 and 9, Section 17 -- yeah, you 12 will see language which really recites where 13 the jurisdiction of this SUNY police officer 14 would be permitted to be exercised, and you 15 look at the underlined language at line 7 and 16 8 on page 9, which basically again would limit 17 it to the geographical area of employment of 18 such police officer. 19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, with 20 all due respect, and I don't know whether we 21 want to take the time of our colleagues who I 22 know are interested in this debate, but you do 23 take out the key language which is 24 "notwithstanding any inconsistent provision 25 of law" and that section just says that the 1 person designated police officers by the board 2 of trustees, et cetera, shall have among the 3 powers the following: and I don't think that 4 at all addresses the issue of whether they 5 will have the general powers of police 6 officers. 7 But let me ask you if you 8 would, if you will continue to yield, Senator 9 Saland. Will these police officers, like all 10 other police officers, carry guns? 11 SENATOR SALAND: They will 12 still be subject to the policy of the 13 university. Most SUNY campuses, I'm told, 14 roughly two-thirds or while I can't give you a 15 hard number, currently permit their public 16 safety officers to carry. There would still 17 be the ability to -- to -- there would still 18 be the discretion within the board of trustees 19 to determine whether or not a -- a police 20 officer should be able to carry. 21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Just one 22 final question, Senator Saland. 23 I still don't understand why 24 there's a belief that greater security will be 25 provided on the campus by having these police 1 officers than presently having peace officers 2 who certainly have powers, as I understand it, 3 that are sufficient to deal with problems of 4 crimes that arise on the campus. I mean the 5 only real distinction you've made is that, as 6 peace officers, they cannot conduct 7 investigations into crimes that have 8 occurred. I just can't believe any police 9 department where a crime has been committed on 10 a campus, a police department of the 11 municipality wherever that campus is located, 12 saying, Well, you know, this is a campus. 13 We're not going to bother looking into a 14 crime. 15 Outside of that, I -- I just 16 fail to see what additional protection you're 17 giving the students. 18 SENATOR SALAND: Well, Senator 19 Leichter, as I mentioned in my earlier 20 comments, there certainly are statistics which 21 show that not only is crime comparable to 22 whatever may be occurring within the 23 communities within which these campuses are 24 located, but in a number of instances with 25 serious crimes, violent crimes, there the data 1 will show that crimes are on the increase. I 2 certainly can't speak for what occurs on each 3 and every one of those campuses; for that 4 matter not every one of those campuses having 5 the time to spend which are considerable 6 periods of time. 7 I can tell you from my 8 experience in the round of hearings that were 9 held. I can tell you from speaking with both 10 SUNY administrative personnel and with SUNY 11 public safety personnel that, yes, as much as 12 you don't want to believe it, that there are 13 instances in which -- reported instances in 14 which they advise me that local police 15 relegate their criminal complaints to a lesser 16 status. That jeopardizes the student, 17 jeopardizes the students' property, 18 jeopardizes the effective administration of 19 public safety on the campus, and it could be 20 literally resolved by providing these 21 providing these personnel police officer 22 status. 23 Nobody is going to be any the 24 worse for it, and many people are going to be 25 much better by reason of it. 1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 2 President, on the bill. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 Senator Leichter, on the bill. 5 SENATOR LEICHTER: As always, 6 Senator Saland, you're very forceful in 7 support of your legislation, and I understand 8 the good concerns which prompt your 9 legislation. 10 I think that campuses will be 11 worse off, and I think society will be worse 12 off if we bring people with guns onto campuses 13 unless there's a clear compelling need, and 14 you can identify and show a real benefit that 15 will occur. 16 Now, the crime statistics, 17 Senator, that you refer to, and I may be wrong 18 because I haven't really looked at them, but I 19 think by and large they deal with thefts, they 20 have -- they, insofar as violence occurs, 21 there may be fights among students or there 22 are instances of rape or -- which, of course, 23 are very disturbing and certainly need to be 24 deterred and acted on, but I don't think these 25 are the range of crimes where you're going to 1 get any meaningful or significant better 2 protection by having people with guns on the 3 campus than you do now from peace officers. 4 The only reason that you put 5 forth that I could understand is you say, 6 well, we need, where crimes have occurred to 7 conduct investigations and unfortunately, our 8 local police officials fail to do that or in 9 some instances fail to do that, but I think 10 that can certainly be dealt with, Senator, 11 because it's obviously, as I'm sure you agree 12 with me, wrong and we should not countenance 13 it and say that we're going to put uniformed 14 or create a new class of uniformed police 15 officers because a municipality or municipal 16 police forces are failing to carry out their 17 sworn obligation and duty of investigating 18 crimes and trying to arrest people who have 19 committed crimes. 20 I just like to think of a 21 campus as a place that is somewhat an oasis 22 from some of the other vicissitudes of life. 23 I realize that's somewhat naive and somewhat 24 illusory, but it is still true to some extent, 25 and I think to bring in uniformed police 1 officers really changes the character of that 2 campus. I just don't think it's necessary for 3 the protection of students. It isn't as if 4 students are being attacked at such a rate 5 that people are coming onto the campus where 6 you really need somebody with a gun to protect 7 the student. I just don't believe that's the 8 case at all. 9 I happen to represent probably 10 more educational institutions than anyone 11 else. I represent Morningside Heights which 12 is occasionally called the "Acropolis of 13 America". I've got Columbia; I've got 14 Barnard; I've got Union Theological; I've got 15 Jewish Seminary. I represent parts of Fordham 16 or used to represent Yeshiva University. I 17 represent a lot of institutions. I've never 18 had a university president come to me and - 19 in fact, I think the distinguished president 20 of Fordham is going to be in Albany today - 21 and said, "I need unformed police officers," 22 and these are campuses that are right in the 23 city where you are more prone to -- to 24 difficulties and to crimes occurring. 25 I just don't believe the case 1 has been made nor do I think that you've 2 provided the safeguards that you want to 3 provide. You haven't provided in the 4 legislation itself that training must occur. 5 If we're going to have people with guns on the 6 campus, Senator, it's not enough to have, 7 well, we got a training manual and we send 8 them now. You got to provide in law that that 9 training is going to be given and if you're 10 going to limit those police officers solely to 11 acting within the campuses, then I think 12 you've got to specify that very clearly which 13 I think your bill doesn't -- doesn't do. 14 So for all these reasons and I 15 think, as Senator Hoffmann said, and point to 16 the opposition of the Sheriffs Association, I 17 just don't think this is a bill we should move 18 at this time. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 20 Read the last section, please. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 20. 22 This act shall take effect on the first day of 23 the sixth month. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 25 Call the roll. 1 (The Secretary called the 2 roll. ) 3 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded 4 in the negative on Calendar Number 465 are 5 Senators Hoffmann and Leichter. Ayes 54, nays 6 2. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 8 The bill is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 479, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 6263-A, 11 an act in relation to permitting. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 That bill - 14 SENATOR JOHNSON: Star that 15 bill at the request of the sponsor. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 17 Thank you, Senator Johnson. Star that bill at 18 the request of the sponsor. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 545, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 1955, an 21 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law and the 22 Social Services Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Senator Paterson. 25 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 1 President, Senator Farley and I have discussed 2 this bill at great length the past few years, 3 also Senator Rath has some legislation that 4 pertains to this subject, and she's joined in 5 the discussion. Suffice it to say that the 6 spirit of this legislation, I think, is very 7 good. It would be a way to take taxpayer 8 dollars away from landlords who are in arrears 9 in their collections. 10 The problem is that it does it 11 at the expense of those clients of Social 12 Service who would, therefore, be penalized in 13 the sense that landlords, knowing that they 14 run this risk, would probably be more apt not 15 to rent to those tenants. 16 That pretty much summarizes the 17 opposition for which last year Senator Connor, 18 Kruger, Senator Leichter, and Lachman, Senator 19 Markowitz, Montgomery, Senator Santiago, 20 Stavisky and Senator Sampson and myself voted 21 against this bill, and we will probably vote 22 against it this year. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 Read the last section, please. 25 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. 1 This act shall take effect on the 90th day. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 3 Call the roll. 4 (The Secretary called the 5 roll. ) 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 7 Please announce the results. 8 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded 9 in the negative on Calendar Number 545 are 10 Senators Connor, Lachman, Leichter, Markowitz, 11 Montgomery, Onorato, Paterson, Santiago and 12 Seabrook. Ayes 47, nays 9. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 14 The bill is passed. 15 Senator Montgomery, why do you 16 rise? 17 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Mr. 18 President, I would like unanimous consent to 19 be recorded in the negative on Calendar 465. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 21 That will be done, Senator, without 22 objection. 23 Senator Paterson. 24 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. 25 President, with unanimous consent, I'd like to 1 be recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 2 241. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 4 You will be recorded in the negative on 5 Calendar Number 241, without objection. 6 Senator Seabrook, why do you 7 rise? 8 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yes, Mr. 9 President. With unanimous consent I'd like to 10 be recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 11 241. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 13 Without objection, it will be done, sir. 14 Senator Johnson. 15 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. 16 President, is there housekeeping at the 17 desk?. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 19 None, sir. 20 SENATOR JOHNSON: There being 21 no further business, I move we stand adjourned 22 until Tuesday at 3:00 p.m. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: 24 The Senate stands adjourned until Tuesday, May 25 5th at 3:00 p.m. 1 (Whereupon at 4:19 p.m., the 2 Senate adjourned.) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9