Friday, December 18, 1998

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 December 18, 1998 11 12:42 A.M. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President 19 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 3 Senate will come to order. Ask all the 4 members and everybody to please rise and join 5 with me and we'll have the Pledge of 6 Allegiance to the Flag. 7 (The assemblage repeated the 8 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 9 In the absence of clergy, may 10 we bow our heads in a moment of silence. 11 (A moment of silence was 12 observed.) 13 Reading of the Journal. 14 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 15 Thursday, December 17th. The Senate met 16 pursuant to adjournment. The Journal of 17 Wednesday, December 16th, was read and 18 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing 20 no objection, the Journal stands approved as 21 read. 22 Presentation of petitions. 23 Messages from the Assembly. 24 Messages from the Governor. 25 Reports of standing 1 committees. Secretary will read. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno, 3 from the Committee on Rules, reports the 4 following bills: 5 Senate Print 7879, by Senator 6 Kuhl, an act to amend the Agriculture and 7 Markets Law; 8 7880, by the Senate Committee 9 on Rules, an act to amend the Legislative Law; 10 and 11 Senate Print 7881, by the 12 Senate Committee on Rules, an act to amend the 13 Education Law. 14 All bills ordered direct for 15 third reading. 16 SENATOR BRUNO: Move to accept 17 the report of the Rules Committee. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion 19 to accept the report of the Rules Committee. 20 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 21 (Response of "Aye.") 22 Opposed nay. 23 The Rules report is accepted. 24 Bills are reported to third reading. 25 Senator Bruno. 1 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 2 can we at this time call up Senate 1686. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 4 Secretary will read Calendar Number 1686, 5 Senate Print Number 7880. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 1686, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate 8 Print 7880, an act to amend the Legislative 9 Law, relating to the payment of compensation 10 and allowances. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: Is there a 12 message at the desk? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 14 is. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: Move to accept 16 the message. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion 18 is to accept the message of necessity on 19 Calendar Number 1680. All those in favor 20 signify by saying aye. 21 (Response of "Aye.") 22 Opposed nay. 23 (There was no response. ) 24 The message is accepted. The 25 bill is before the house. Secretary will read 1 the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. 3 This act shall take effect on the same date as 4 a chapter of the laws of 1988. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 6 the roll. 7 (The Secretary called the 8 roll. ) 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 10 Chair recognizes Senator Leichter, to explain 11 his vote. 12 SENATOR LEICHTER: No, no, I 13 want an explanation. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Roll 15 call is withdrawn. 16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. 17 President, I've served in the Legislature 18 almost 30 years, and I think back to the many 19 Rules bills that I've seen over those 30 20 years, quite a few in that span of time, but 21 this bill would certainly make the list of the 22 ten worst. 23 It's hard to believe that this 24 Legislature would pass a bill that, in effect, 25 would give a sledgehammer to the Governor to 1 force the Legislature to enact a budget that 2 the Legislature may think is not in the 3 interests of the people of the state of New 4 York and to do it by saying, You will not be 5 paid. Your salary will be deferred unless you 6 agree to the Governor's budget. 7 And why didn't he find this 8 bill before? Would you think that for two days 9 he should pander a little more about this 10 whole issue in question why a budget is late 11 and what should be done about it. Frankly it 12 started with a previous governor who came out 13 one year that the Legislature should not be 14 paid because the budget is late. Sheer 15 pandering to the public, and I think that the 16 public understands and appreciates as they 17 will if this bill should be held constitu 18 tional and is ever put into effect and is 19 workable, that their interests are not being 20 protected because they've sent us up here to 21 protect their interest, to do what they think 22 is right, and it may well be that what is 23 right as far as the public is concerned, as 24 far as our constituents are concerned - 25 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. 1 Will Senator Leichter stand for a question? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Leichter, will you yield to Senator Bruno? 4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, I would 5 yield to you, and with delight. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 7 yields. 8 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator, thank 9 you. Thank you. I just wonder - 10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: -- if you are 12 clear that this bill indicates that only the 13 Legislature has to pass a budget and send it 14 to the Governor. We don't have to pass the 15 Governor's budget. He doesn't have to agree 16 that this is a budget. All we have to do is 17 pass it and send it to the Governor as we have 18 done for the last 200 years in this state, and 19 then it further states that the Comptroller 20 would deem or determine that we have done our 21 work, and that is all that this bill states 22 and all of us fully intend to do a budget 23 before April 1st, and we will have met the 24 requirements of this bill. 25 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator 1 Bruno, you're absolutely correct, but I 2 believe that the guidelines, the parameters of 3 the whole budget debate, are, of course, set 4 by the budget that the Governor proposes, by 5 his Article 7 bills. It's also that when we 6 find ourselves in a situation, as we have for 7 ever since 1974 where we have a split 8 Legislature and the Governor is of the party 9 of one of the houses, that it then becomes 10 extremely difficult to resolve disputes, so I 11 think that to say, Well, all the Legislature 12 has to do is to come up with their own budget 13 and pass it and that will satisfy the -- the 14 requirements of this bill, they have to 15 consider what the realities of the situation 16 are. 17 You are giving a sledgehammer 18 to the Governor, and what I can't understand 19 is why we would demean this institution, why 20 we would diminish this institution. I'm 21 getting up and speaking on this because I love 22 this institution. I really do, and I believe 23 strongly in it, and I don't think that we 24 should do anything that diminishes our 25 responsibility vis-a-vis the Governor. I 1 don't want to diminish his responsibility 2 either. But we are a co-equal branch of 3 government, and this bill doesn't say that if 4 a budget isn't passed that the Governor's 5 salary is going to be deferred or that the 6 Governor still isn't free to go out and make 7 speeches out of state and make money. 8 The fact is that this is a club 9 to make the Legislature act on the budget when 10 it may really not be in the interest. There 11 may be differences that need to be resolved. 12 We all know that we have a very short window 13 within which we have to pass a budget. We 14 have to do it by April 1. I certainly haven't 15 been proud of what has happened in the past 16 few years, but I don't -- I can't say, Well, 17 it was the fault of the Legislature. It 18 wasn't the fault of the Legislature. There 19 were honest differences between the two 20 houses. There were differences between one 21 house and the Governor. There were 22 differences between the two houses and the 23 Governor. It's part of the democratic process 24 of how to work this out, and I don't think 25 that you can resolve it by this sort of an 1 artificial mechanism. 2 There are -- the other reason 3 that we see this bill before us at this 4 particular time and, you know, to be doing 5 this sort of legislation at this hour under 6 this pressure is, of course, because of the 7 pay increase bill. Of course, we gave, in 8 this particular instance -- the way that we 9 did the pay increase, you gave the Governor a 10 gun and he's been able to use it to get 11 legislation out of the two houses that, 12 frankly, I don't think ever should see the 13 light of day, and I'm thinking particularly of 14 the charter bill -- charter school bill which 15 comes next, but I think this bill also, so I 16 think what you're doing is just putting 17 yourselves in an inferior position as against 18 the Governor. 19 It's a bill that really 20 shouldn't be before us and no pay increase, to 21 my mind, is worth our doing something which 22 erodes the authority, the responsibility of 23 this Legislature. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 25 Secretary will read the last section. 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. 2 This act shall take effect on the same date as 3 a chapter of the laws of 1998. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 5 the roll. 6 (The Secretary called the 7 roll. ) 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Record 9 the negatives. Keep your hands up if you're 10 voting in the negative. 11 Announce the results. 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47, nays 13 10; those recorded in the negative are 14 Senators Connor, Gonzalez, Leichter, 15 Markowitz, Montgomery, Paterson, Santiago, 16 Seabrook, Smith and Waldon. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 18 bill is passed. 19 Senator Bruno. 20 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 21 can we at this time take up Calendar Number 22 1666. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 24 Secretary will read Calendar Number 1666, 25 Senate print 7879. 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 1666, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 7879, an 3 act to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, 4 in relation to enacting the Northeast 5 Interstate Dairy Compact. 6 SENATOR BRUNO: Is there a 7 message at the desk? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There 9 is. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Move to accept 11 the message. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion 13 is to accept the message of necessity on 14 Calendar Number 1666. All those in favor say 15 aye. 16 (Response of "Aye.") 17 Opposed nay. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: No. 19 SENATOR MENDEZ: No. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Message 21 is accepted. Bill is before the house. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: An 23 explanation has been asked for. 24 Senator Kuhl. 25 SENATOR KUHL: Senator 1 Dollinger, this is what is referred to as the 2 dairy compact bill. It's a bill that's been 3 before this house earlier this year. There is 4 one slight modification. An amendment has 5 been written into the bill which would provide 6 for an additional section of the Agriculture 7 and Markets Law in the state of New York that 8 essentially provides that, if the price that 9 were established -- let me put this in the 10 right way -- if the price that were 11 established by the New Jersey-New York Federal 12 Order price were less than what the dairy 13 compact price would be, then the contingent 14 that represents the state of New York would be 15 directed to vote no for raising the price 16 higher than that price. 17 That's the only amendment to 18 the provision. Now, given today's situation, 19 currently as I understand it, the federal milk 20 marketing order pricing is around $19 and, I 21 think, 24 cents. The compact price is 22 something like $16.84 per hundredweight, and 23 so if the federal order price is higher than 24 the compact price, there's no indication that 25 the compact price is going to go any higher 1 and this is a provision that is meant to try 2 to protect the consumer in the state from 3 paying an exorbitant price for the milk. 4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 5 you, Mr. President, if I could, just for a 6 question - 7 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 8 Senator Dollinger, why do you rise? 9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- if I 10 could for clarification. If Senator Kuhl 11 would yield to a question? 12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 13 Senator Kuhl, will you yield to Senator 14 Dollinger? 15 SENATOR KUHL: I'd be happy 16 to. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 18 Senator yields. 19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Does the 20 amendment that was -- that was inserted this 21 time around, does it provide the New York 22 State delegation must vote no, or does it 23 require New York State to withdraw from the 24 compact? 25 SENATOR KUHL: As I think I 1 indicated -- I thought I answered that when I 2 explained the bill -- it's just a no vote. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 4 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Kuhl 5 will yield. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 7 Senator Dollinger. Senator Kuhl, do you 8 continue to yield? 9 SENATOR KUHL: Yes. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So if the 11 New York delegation votes no, the price could 12 still go up in New York State, correct, by 13 virtue of the compact? 14 SENATOR KUHL: No, it's not. 15 It's a unanimous vote for the price to go up. 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So if New 17 York votes against it, the price doesn't go up 18 at all. 19 SENATOR KUHL: That's correct. 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just on the 21 bill, briefly, Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 23 Senator Dollinger, on the bill. 24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm aware 25 of the time and perhaps the minimal patience 1 of some of my colleagues. I think it's 2 unfortunate that perhaps the state Legislature 3 on all three of these bills may have given 4 away a portion of its soul for, frankly, 5 something we've all had an interest in, a pay 6 raise, and I find it astounding that on this 7 week before Christmas, literally seven days 8 before Christmas, we're doing a dairy compact, 9 we're doing charter schools and we're doing 10 bud...quote, a budget reform bill. 11 On this bill, Mr. President, I 12 made my comments; I'm drinking my milk, 13 Senator Kuhl, trying to contribute to 14 increased consumption of milk, which is what's 15 needed if we're going to keep the price where 16 it should be. 17 This is, in my judgment, the 18 worst thing we could ever do. We made about a 19 6- or $7 billion mistake 10 or 15 years ago. 20 I wasn't here. We set a price on the 21 commodity of electricity. We've paid for it 22 since then. Our consumers have paid billions 23 more; it's been a disaster. 24 Setting the price, tinkering 25 with price, frankly, is something they used to 1 do in those countries they called Communist. 2 We shouldn't be doing it in a free market 3 system like this. It really is -- I 4 understand the need and the interest in 5 protecting small farms, but the way to protect 6 is not to freeze prices and have the state of 7 New York or, for that matter, states working 8 together in the form of a cartel set a price. 9 It's a horrible idea. It's an 10 un-American idea. We shouldn't be doing it. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 12 Senator Hoffmann. 13 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, 14 Mr. President. 15 I'm acutely aware of some of 16 the information that some of my colleagues in 17 the City, in fact all of us have received, but 18 particularly my colleagues in the City, over 19 the last few months that we have debated the 20 dairy compact in and out of this chamber. 21 There has been an incredible amount of propa 22 ganda put forth, and upon close examination, 23 most of the anti-compact propaganda comes from 24 one principal source. It's an organization 25 headquartered in Washington called the 1 International Dairy Foods Association. This 2 is the organization of milk dealers. These 3 are the people who make the profit at the 4 middle; whether the market is up or down, they 5 manage to protect their interest in the 6 middle. 7 Unfortunately, they went too 8 far in their anti-compact propaganda because 9 they attacked dairy farmers. They attacked 10 dairy farmers in a way that disgraces and 11 embarrasses those of us in the Legislature and 12 gives a bad name to the art, and it is an art, 13 of lobbying, by labeling farmers as 14 "milkionaires", they showed their abysmal 15 lack of respect for those people who till the 16 land, and who live in upstate New York et al, 17 by preying upon the fears that people have in 18 New York City that an essential commodity 19 would go sky high. Without knowing what any 20 of the facts were, they successfully stalled 21 this measure over a period of more than a 22 year; but I'm pleased today that we finally 23 have a piece of legislation that addresses 24 even the worst kind of fears from people who 25 represent constituents in New York City. 1 If it is not possible to 2 explain to your constituents that farmers who 3 may own a hundred acres of land or more can 4 still be living at or near the poverty level 5 when the price is down at the farm gate as 6 many of my constituents are, you can at least 7 tell your constituents in the City who live in 8 housing where they pay rent and sometimes an 9 astronomical amount of rent and never dream of 10 owning their own land, that under the 11 Northeast Dairy Compact, the price of milk to 12 the consumers will never go higher relatively 13 speaking than it is today. 14 There are safeguards in this 15 bill that ensure that at no time would they be 16 forced to pay more than they pay today 17 relative to their income and relative to 18 inflation. This is the figure for milk that 19 we will live with for years, for generations 20 to come as long as there is a dairy compact in 21 effect, and there is time -- this is the time 22 for a dairy compact because this is the time 23 that the entire federal market order system is 24 to be revamped. It was designed at a time in 25 this country when we were coming through the 1 Depression, when there was a need to establish 2 a price for milk to ensure that farmers would 3 even remain in business. 4 It was well-intentioned at the 5 time, but this country has moved past that and 6 I have to give credit where due. Some of you 7 remember our colleague here in the Senate, 8 Senator John McHugh, who chaired the Dairy 9 Commission a number of years ago. It was 10 under Senator McHugh's leadership that the 11 dairy compact was created. The original 12 legislation to create the Northeast Dairy 13 Compact was developed jointly between the 14 state of New York and the state of Vermont in 15 the late 1980s, and a very capable legislator 16 from Vermont by the name of Bob Starr worked 17 with Senator McHugh and his staff. Our Dairy 18 Commission was led at that time by Eric 19 Rasmussen, who is now the market administrator 20 for Federal Order I headquartered in Boston. 21 All of these individuals had a 22 vision at that time that there was going to be 23 a point in the future in which we would have a 24 federal pricing mechanism that allows all of 25 the parties to be at the table, the milk 1 dealers, the retail food industry, government, 2 the farmers and, of course, the consumers. 3 That is the work of the dairy 4 compact. It has been in effect for one year 5 in New England, and the price of milk in New 6 England is stable. In fact, it was less a 7 year after it went into effect than it had 8 been a year before. 9 Clearly, it is to the benefit 10 of consumers to have a long-term stable price 11 for milk. It is in the best interest of 12 farmers for this state to have knowledge that 13 the consumers can afford to buy milk long into 14 the future, and it is in the best interest of 15 our state to have a dairy economy that is 16 healthy. This measure addresses all of those 17 concerns. 18 So I would urge all of my 19 colleagues who have expressed their concerns 20 in the past, and understandably expressed 21 their concerns based on the information that 22 they were given, often totally erroneous, 23 often outright insulting to the intelligence 24 of the American people and certainly outright 25 insulting to the people who are farmers in the 1 state of New York. 2 I would urge all of my 3 colleagues on both sides of the aisle, urban, 4 rural or suburban, you can in clear conscience 5 support the Northeast Dairy Compact. It is 6 good for everyone in the state of New York. 7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 9 Senator Wright. 10 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you, Mr. 11 President. 12 I don't intend to reiterate the 13 virtues of this bill. I think they were well 14 recognized by this house earlier when we 15 passed the first version of the dairy compact 16 with bipartisan upstate/downstate support. 17 I simply want to point out that 18 we began in the North Country, the dairy 19 farmers began 1998 with probably the worst 20 natural disaster that they had encountered in 21 their history and I think it's important that 22 we recognize the commitment of Senator Bruno 23 and the commitment of Senator Kuhl that they 24 have persevered throughout the 12 months to 25 see that when we end 1998 we're ending it with 1 legislation that will enact the dairy compact 2 and address the economic concerns of those 3 same dairy farmers who struggled so 4 desperately in the beginning of this year. 5 So I join my colleagues in 6 supporting this legislation and encouraging 7 all the members of the Senate to do likewise 8 so that we can maintain a strong dairy 9 industry in this state. 10 Thank you. 11 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 13 Senator Gold, why do you rise? 14 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, Mr. 15 President. May I ask unanimous consent to be 16 voted in the negative on Calendar 1686 which I 17 believe is the bill we just concluded. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 19 Without objection. 20 Returning to the calendar, read 21 the last section. 22 Senator Abate. 23 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, I ask for 24 unanimous consent to be recorded in the 25 negative on Calendar Number 1686. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 2 Without objection. 3 Read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 5 This act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call 7 the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the 9 roll. ) 10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 11 Announce the results. 12 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded 13 in the negative on Calendar Number 1666 are 14 Senators Breslin, Connor, Dollinger, Gentile, 15 Gold, Gonzalez, Kruger, Lachman, Leichter, 16 Markowitz, Mendez, Nanula, Onorato, 17 Oppenheimer, Paterson, Rosado, Santiago, 18 Seabrook, also Senator Goodman. Ayes 40, nays 19 19. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The 21 bill is passed. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Bruno. 24 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 25 can we at this time take up Calendar Number 1 1687. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 3 Secretary will read Calendar Number 1687. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 1687, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate 6 Print 7881, an act to amend the Education Law, 7 in relation to establishing a charter school 8 program. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion 10 is to accept the message of necessity on 11 Calendar Number 1687 which is at the desk. 12 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 13 (Response of "Aye.") 14 Opposed nay. 15 The message is accepted. The 16 bill is before the house. 17 Senator Cook. 18 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, I 19 apologize for taking my colleagues' time at 20 this hour of the evening, but no one in this 21 chamber, and particularly Senator Bruno, 22 planned to be here this time of night, and 23 this is just too important an issue for me not 24 to have something to say. 25 I left this chamber a few weeks 1 ago amid good cheer, handshakes and hugs, and 2 thought that that would be the atmosphere in 3 which I would leave the Legislature, but 4 unfortunately, tonight we have before us an 5 issue on which I feel compelled to speak, 6 because until December 31st, I still represent 7 the 40th District and have a responsibility to 8 the people who I represent who elected me. 9 I wonder how many members of 10 this chamber are aware that in voting for this 11 bill we may be actually mandating on some of 12 our constituents a property tax increase of 13 perhaps ten percent? This bill gives to school 14 districts absolutely no say over the private 15 school which would be established in their 16 district for which they would have to make a 17 payment per student equal to the amount that 18 they are spending on all the public school 19 students in their districts. 20 At the same time, the school 21 district has very little that it can do to 22 actually save money. If ten percent of the 23 students are taken out of the school and put 24 into a charter school, that school district is 25 simply going to have to add the cost of that 1 charter school to the tax bill that they send 2 to the people in their district. There's very 3 little probability that a school is going to 4 be able to offset by savings these costs that 5 they're going to have to pay over to the 6 private school. 7 Nothing is going to change 8 their fixed costs. Nothing is going to cut 9 their maintenance costs on the building or the 10 cost of heating the building and maintaining 11 -- paying the insurance on the building. 12 Very little impact will be felt in support 13 areas such as the library or the cafeteria or 14 the gymnasium by removing two or three 15 children from each classroom is certainly not 16 going to eliminate the need for any teachers 17 or any space, and indeed you will be 18 increasing the cost of transportation because 19 the public district is going to have to 20 provide transportation for students to this 21 private school. 22 What kind of public 23 accountability is this? If your town 24 supervisor were to simply mail a check for ten 25 percent of his budget to some private operator 1 over whom he has no control or oversight, not 2 only would he be widely criticized but he 3 would probably end up in jail for 4 misappropriation of public funds; and yet in 5 this bill we mandate that public boards of 6 education do exactly that. 7 And what are the presumed 8 benefits? Do we want to bring to the school 9 the talents of highly qualified professionals 10 to teach certain subjects? The public school 11 system can already do that with no reason it 12 can't be done. Do we want to provide schools 13 with specialized programs and innovative 14 programs and personnel? I was in Manhattan two 15 weeks ago. I walked past two public schools 16 who already do that. Last year I visited a 17 school in Senator Markowitz' district and saw 18 such a program in progress. There are magnet 19 schools in many of our cities. Many of our 20 school districts are running innovative 21 programs. 22 The difference is they are 23 funded with public money but they also are 24 under the oversight of publicly elected boards 25 of education who are responsible to the voters 1 in their district. 2 Is this a means of letting 3 parents and professionals in a given area run 4 a school? Well, Mr. President, there are 60 5 pretty intelligent people in this room, 6 dedicated people, I'm sure, but I would hate 7 to have this 60 people constitute the faculty 8 of any school that I want my kids to go to. 9 The Regents are talking about 10 certifying and increasing responsibility for 11 certifying teachers. There's a general 12 acceptance of the -- of the principle that the 13 way we're going to improve education, we're 14 going to improve learning, is to improve the 15 quality of teaching, and yet we're setting up 16 a school system in which we don't require 17 teachers to be certified, even though in the 18 public school system we're increasing the 19 certification requirements for every student 20 -- every teacher who is going to walk into 21 the classroom. 22 Teaching is not just a matter 23 of assigning home work and checking 24 attendance. Teaching is a process of 25 mentoring, of encouraging and counseling. 1 It's a profession that requires skill and 2 knowledge. It's not something that can be 3 accomplished by someone who happens to have a 4 Wednesday afternoon with nothing better to do 5 than volunteer to take over a class in a 6 charter school; so to pass this bill is as 7 dumb as permitting teachers to remove our 8 appendix. 9 So we're going to put these 10 children into storefronts and unused community 11 buildings. Who are we kidding? Who in this 12 room wants to waive the building codes and the 13 fire regulations so that some private group 14 can collect taxpayer dollars to run a charter 15 school? Is this charter school going to be any 16 less subject to the laws of handicapped access 17 or fire drills or air quality than the public 18 schools? If not, then how are they going to 19 make any great savings on their facilities 20 and, if so, do you really want to vote to 21 reduce the quality of the surroundings for 22 students who are attending taxpayer-financed 23 schools in this state? 24 So we're going to save money by 25 not having expensive equipment in the public 1 schools. We're going to do away with 2 computers and musical instruments and 3 libraries and laboratories, and end up giving 4 students better education. Tell me that we 5 aren't so naive. Also we're going to save 6 money by reducing mandates. What mandates 7 other than those that I have mentioned are we 8 enforcing in the public schools? I'll tell you 9 what mandates. Education standards. After 10 years of trying to upgrade the school 11 curriculum and ensure that a high school 12 diploma in this state is evidence of real 13 academic performance, we're saying it really 14 doesn't matter. 15 And what about students with 16 special educational needs? The program 17 provides that charter schools have to provide 18 for those special educational needs of 19 students providing they have the 20 qualifications to do so, but if they don't 21 have the capability of providing services for 22 that student with special needs, those 23 students go back to the public schools to pick 24 up that cost and that responsibility. 25 And what about students who 1 have behavioral problems? There's nothing 2 included in the charter school that says they 3 have to keep these kids in the school. They 4 simply expel them. They become the 5 responsibility of the public school. With all 6 this brave language about inclusion, there's 7 no inclusion in the charter school when it can 8 exclude some students who don't fit their 9 profile. 10 Charter schools in many states 11 have become a clever means for shifting public 12 schools into segregated schools and maybe not 13 schools segregated by race, but there are 14 schools that will be designated to siphon off 15 an elite of students from the public school 16 system, and this leads to the public schools 17 having the children who have the greatest 18 challenges for learning, and yet this bill 19 mandates that dollar for dollar the school 20 district has to fund the elite private school 21 at the same per student level as the public 22 school. 23 Mr. President, I voted for the 24 pay raise. I voted for that bill because I 25 thought it was justified by the facts, that it 1 was a justifiable and honorable thing to do, 2 but I do not think, Mr. President, that it is 3 a justifiable and honorable thing to pass this 4 bill in order to get that pay raise signed 5 into law. 6 Thank you. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Any 8 other Senator wishing to speak on the bill? 9 Senator Oppenheimer. 10 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Well, I 11 certainly have to agree with what Senator Cook 12 said. 13 I'd like to make a few other 14 observations. One is that there are lots of 15 viable programs right now that are indeed 16 alternative schools within high schools and 17 within other lower grade schools. For 18 instance, in my high school we've had for the 19 last 25 to 30 years, had two alternative 20 schools. One is the potential drop-out 21 students, and yet we're managing to hold onto 22 these kids through these special programs 23 within our high school. We permit them to 24 work part of the day and go to school part of 25 the day, and we have a lower teacher ratio to 1 the student, and it has been very successful. 2 You have a very low drop-out 3 rate because of this program in that school 4 district. We also have another program, 5 Senator, involving children one to four years 6 and that is where the autistic children are 7 chosen that are interested in dance and arts 8 and music, and we have held onto these 9 students through a variety of programs. So I 10 think that this can be done within the context 11 of what now exists in our high schools and our 12 lower grade schools. 13 Also within my Senate District 14 we have at least two or three school systems 15 that are all magnet, so that a child may go to 16 the school that is going to be most 17 appropriate for his skills and for his 18 interest or her interest. 19 A point, I think, that is made 20 is that about teaching. To teach is more than 21 just to do well or wanting to do the best that 22 you can do to have children learn. Teaching 23 requires study. I have watched my daughter 24 just complete her Master's. I can tell you it 25 was a very complex undertaking at a very fine 1 school in New York, Bank Street. 2 I think it just requires a lot 3 of pedagogical skills which, with the best of 4 persons who want to help children, cannot just 5 walk into a charter school and say, I really 6 want to help, because they're not going to 7 help that child. 8 I think the most important 9 thing for me right now is that we have reached 10 a juncture which I am so pleased with and in 11 our stated policy we have in our state, we 12 have done away with standards for all students 13 in New York State and this isn't going to be 14 easy. It's going to require money. It's 15 going to require every dollar that might be 16 going to these charter schools because we are 17 trying to lift all children. We recognize 18 that our school system is not doing the job it 19 must do to provide children for the work force 20 of the next century. 21 So what are we doing? We are 22 trying our hardest through after school 23 programs, through summer programs, through a 24 variety of programs to lift all children in 25 our high school systems, and I believe that 1 charter schools are really a diversionary 2 attractor. I think it would attract the money 3 that should be going to lift all children and, 4 by the way, everybody is on board on these 5 higher standards. Teachers are on board. 6 Administration is on board. Regents are on 7 board. Our super... what is it? -- the head 8 of our Department of Education is on board. 9 Everybody is on, trying their hardest to meet 10 these new standards. 11 This is no time to try 12 something that can only benefit a very small 13 number of our children and that is going to 14 divert public funds, and I think it's a shame 15 that something like this is put up to hold 16 hostage our pay raise bill. The fact is this 17 is an important issue, and this issue is 18 worthy of public comment, is worthy of public 19 hearings around the state. This is not 20 something that we should be trading on. 21 I'll be voting no. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 23 Montgomery. 24 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Mr. 25 President, I just want to say how much I 1 appreciate Senator Cook and his laying out 2 some of the really fundamental flaws with this 3 approach and, furthermore, I think that it's 4 very unfortunate that we have been presented 5 with legislation at this hour, 1:25 or 1:00 6 o'clock perhaps in the morning -- 1:25, to - 7 which will -- which has the potential of 8 substantially changing the way that we fund 9 public education in our state, and it has 10 implications for many decades as it relates to 11 how we fund and support public education. 12 Let me say that for New York 13 City, I know that there is a tremendous 14 revolution going on. That revolution is 15 related to the change in school governance, 16 number one, and number two, the fact that the 17 Regents have come up with changes in academic 18 standards for all of the schools, specifically 19 for high school graduation. 20 There have been -- also been 21 changes in requirements for teacher 22 certification, and there are also changes in 23 standards for teacher institutions, teacher 24 training institutions, and so there is 25 essentially a revolution that has come into 1 play and that has really trickled down to 2 what's happening in the schools, and so people 3 really are trying desperately to improve the 4 approach to education for children 5 universally, certainly in the city of New 6 York. In fact, we're trying desperately to 7 bring our schools up to at least the same 8 level of some of the upstate school 9 districts. 10 But what do we need to do that 11 in the city, universally for all students? We 12 need school facilities. We need new meal 13 facilities so that we can, in fact, accomplish 14 a major goal which is reducing drop-outs in 15 the city. We need a substantial ability, 16 increase in our ability to provide support to 17 teachers so that they can be trained to meet 18 the new standard and support it, in how they 19 approach curriculum and learning with 20 children. 21 We need to have a system that 22 we have in place supported in a way that we 23 can have positive outcomes for all children. 24 So for us to now be working on creating 25 another mid-level system that is going to, in 1 fact, take very stressed dollars out of the 2 public schools to create something that is 3 very mean, that is very new, we don't know if 4 it will work or not and, in fact, some of the 5 information that we're receiving now from 6 other states causes us to question whether or 7 not this is an effective way to approach 8 public education, but nonetheless we're doing 9 this at the expense and despite the fact that 10 we need to be putting more resources to make 11 sure that the system that we have would serve 12 most -- the majority of the children who 13 attend school in the entire state. We're 14 taking money out of that system to put into 15 this. 16 I am going to oppose this bill, 17 although I think it's much improved from what 18 we were presented with a few months ago and 19 certainly even a couple of weeks ago, but I 20 think it's an issue that is of such importance 21 that we cannot afford to do it and we should 22 not be doing it hastily and without a lot more 23 research, a lot more time, a lot more 24 discussion and consideration of all of the 25 problems that we might be creating while at 1 the same time removing resources from the 2 public school system that we have already. 3 So I'm going to vote against 4 this bill, Mr. President, and I certainly hope 5 that the leaders and the Governor will come - 6 will rethink this and consider the possibility 7 of delaying any decision on this because it's 8 so important to so many children for 9 generations. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 11 Dollinger, do you wish to speak on the bill? 12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 13 President, I didn't say the 1:00 o'clock. 14 Now, would the Senator, 15 chairman of the Education Committee, yield to 16 just a couple quick questions, Mr. President? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 18 Cook? 19 SENATOR COOK: I'll yield, but 20 I'm not going to have very many answers, I'm 21 afraid. 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 23 you, Mr. President, we in this chamber passed 24 a law that said every school in the state of 25 New York must teach about the Holocaust. 1 Would a charter school, under this bill, have 2 to teach about the Holocaust? 3 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, 4 it's my understanding that basically the 5 charter school is not mandated to teach 6 anything other than what its charter requires 7 it to teach, and it's my understanding that 8 the -- that that would be prescribed in the 9 charter that's issued to the particular 10 school. 11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So if there 12 was nothing in the charter about the 13 Holocaust, it would not have to be taught? 14 SENATOR COOK: That's my 15 understanding. Is that correct? 16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. 17 President, again through you, we also passed a 18 bill that said the Irish potato famine must be 19 taught. 20 SENATOR COOK: Same answer. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator 22 Maltese -- Senator Cook, Senator Maltese 23 carries a bill that carries a requirement on 24 patriotism and the American flag. Same 25 answer? 1 SENATOR COOK: Same answer. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: We passed 3 the law, but the charter schools don't have to 4 do it. 5 Senator Cook, if we pass a law 6 that said abstinence -- that abstinence only, 7 abstinence only was the only type of sex 8 education that could be taught in the schools, 9 if we said that, the charter school could 10 teach anything they wanted to about sex 11 education, is that correct? So they wouldn't 12 be governed; we have would lose our ability to 13 control the curriculum in the schools that are 14 funded by public dollars in this state, is 15 that correct? 16 Again through you, Mr. 17 President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 19 Cook? 20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: We, by 21 state Education Law, require that fire drills 22 be performed in schools every year; isn't that 23 correct? 24 SENATOR COOK: (Nods head). 25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But a 1 charter school wouldn't have to abide by that, 2 would they? 3 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, I 4 understand that health and safety rules are 5 not -- are not excluded among the mandates, so 6 I believe that probably fire drills are 7 something they would have to do. In fact, Mr. 8 President, if I may volunteer, I believe that 9 the building would have to comply with all the 10 existing fire and building codes that are - 11 that exist, which leads me to the point that 12 nobody is going to take an old A & P store and 13 suddenly run this very inexpensive school 14 system because you're going to have to build a 15 structure that complies with all the existing 16 standards the public schools have to meet, so 17 it's really the other way around. 18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Again 19 through you, Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are you 21 asking Senator Cook to continue to yield? 22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: If he 23 would, Mr. President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 25 Cook, do you continue to yield? Senator 1 yields. 2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through 3 you, Mr. President. Senator Cook, we have 4 rules about truancy passed in this Legislature 5 which apply to public schools. Would they 6 apply to charter schools? 7 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, 8 truancy is a law that requires the attendance 9 of students at schools, so that applies. The 10 difference, however, is that we have also 11 rules when a student -- when the school 12 suspends a student or dismisses a student that 13 there's a requirement that the public school 14 continue the educational program for the 15 student. 16 The charter school, on the 17 other hand, if they dismiss a student, they 18 don't have to do that. The student goes back 19 to the public school and they have to provide 20 the program for them. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: One final 22 question for Senator Cook. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 24 Cook, you continue to yield? 25 SENATOR COOK: Yes. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 2 continues to yield. 3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, 4 perhaps you can refresh my recollection about 5 the taxpayer bill of rights that we had put 6 into the public schools. Didn't that say that 7 if we raised the tax rate higher than the CPI 8 or four percent, that you required a super 9 majority to approve your budget; is that 10 correct? I'm trying to remember. 11 SENATOR COOK: No, Mr. 12 President. I believe that the provision to be 13 put in law was if the overall district budget 14 increased -- I'm sorry. If the voters of the 15 school district twice defeated a proposed 16 school budget, that then the board of 17 education would have -- would be empowered, in 18 fact, be required to impose a budget that 19 would increase no more than either four 20 percent or the CPI minus -- plus 20 percent. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again 22 through you, Mr. President, if I can just make 23 sure I understand that with Senator Cook. If, 24 as you predicted, we mandate by this action 25 today ten percent increase in the cost of 1 education to local school districts, if they 2 suddenly had to send this money to other 3 schools for which they had no control over, 4 and they had to increase their budget ten 5 percent and the voters twice turned it down, 6 what does the school district do then? 7 SENATOR COOK: The school 8 district then, Mr. President, would have to 9 reduce the amount of money that they're 10 spending in the public school in order to stay 11 within the spending parameters because that 12 money that they pay to the charter school is a 13 part of their local school budget. It's an 14 expenditure of the local school districts that 15 is -- it is claimed as a part of their school 16 aid. The state pays it to the school 17 district. It's part of -- those students 18 continue to be counted just as they are today 19 but there's no provision for additional money 20 to go to that school district. 21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So is it 22 safe, again through you, Mr. President, safe 23 to say that under the example I just used on a 24 ten percent increase that school district 25 would have to cut its overall school spending 1 by six percent, in order to comply? 2 SENATOR COOK: Well, Mr. 3 President, the interesting -- the interesting 4 thing, though, is if they cut it by six 5 percent they would increase the amount they 6 pay to the charter school by six percent 7 because it's the same amount as they're 8 spending so, yeah, but the charter school 9 would bear some of that cost in addition. 10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, 11 Mr. President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 13 Secretary will read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. 15 This act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 17 the roll. 18 (The Secretary called the 19 roll.) 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 21 Negatives please raise their hands to be 22 counted. Please keep your hands up so that 23 the desk can make sure you're counted. 24 Announce the results. 25 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded 1 in the negative on Calendar Number 1687 are 2 Senators Abate, Breslin, Connor, Cook, Gold, 3 Hoffmann, Kruger, Leichter, Markowitz, 4 Montgomery, Nanula, Onorato, Oppenheimer, 5 Paterson, Rosado, Sampson, Santiago, Seabrook, 6 Stachowski, Fuschillo. Ayes 39, nays 20. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 bill is passed. 9 Senator Bruno. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 11 can we now return to motions and resolutions. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll 13 return to the order of motions and 14 resolutions. 15 Senator Bruno. 16 SENATOR BRUNO: Reconsider the 17 vote by which Resolution 4306 - 18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 19 Secretary will read. 20 SENATOR BRUNO: -- was 21 adopted. 22 THE SECRETARY: Concurrent 23 resolution, by Senator Bruno, 4306 of the 24 Senate and Assembly fixing the salaries of the 25 office of Governor and Lt. Governor. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion 2 is to reconsider the vote by which the 3 resolution passed the house. The Secretary 4 will call the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll 6 on reconsideration.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 9 Resolution is before the house and recommitted 10 -- or pardon me. 11 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 12 can we recommit that resolution to Rules. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 14 Resolution is recommitted to the Rules 15 Committee. 16 Senator Bruno. 17 SENATOR BRUNO: May we now 18 return to messages from the Assembly. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Return 20 to messages from the Assembly. Secretary will 21 read. 22 THE SECRETARY: The Assembly 23 sends for concurrence Resolution Number 2653 24 of the Assembly fixing the salaries of 25 Governor and Lieutenant Governor. 1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 2 Question is on the resolution. All in favor 3 signify by saying aye. 4 SENATOR GOLD: Wait a minute. 5 Are we voting to recommit this to Rules? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: No, we 7 are not. 8 SENATOR GOLD: Oh, too bad. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: No, 10 it's a resolution before the house, Senator 11 Gold. 12 Call the roll. 13 (The Secretary called the 14 roll.) 15 On the roll call, record the 16 negatives; announce the results. 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56, nays 18 3, Senators Breslin, Dollinger and Gentile - 19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 20 Results. 21 THE SECRETARY: Also Senator 22 Nanula. Ayes 55, nays 4. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 24 resolution is adopted. 25 Senator Bruno. 1 SENATOR LACK: Mr. President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 3 Lack. Excuse me. Senator Bruno. 4 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 5 can we at this time return to motions and 6 resolutions and recognize Senator Lack, 7 please. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Return 9 to motions and resolutions, recognize Senator 10 Lack. 11 SENATOR LACK: Mr. President, 12 would you call up Senate Print 3963-A recalled 13 from the Assembly which is now at the desk. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 15 Secretary will read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 1638, 17 by Senator Lack, Senate Print 3963-A, an act 18 to amend the Retirement and Social Security 19 Law. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 21 Lack. 22 SENATOR LACK: Mr. President, I 23 now move to reconsider the vote by which this 24 bill was passed and ask that the bill be 25 returned to the order of third reading. 1 (The Secretary called the roll 2 on reconsideration.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 5 Lack. 6 SENATOR LACK: Now, Mr. 7 President, that the bill has been restored to 8 its place on the Third Reading Calendar, I'd 9 like to offer up the following amendments. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 11 Amendments are received. 12 SENATOR LACK: Mr. President, I 13 now move to discharge the Committee on Rules 14 from Assembly Bill Number 6986-B, and 15 substitute it for my identical bill and ask 16 that it have its third reading at this time. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 18 Secretary will read. Substitution is ordered. 19 THE SECRETARY: By member of 20 the Assembly Vitaliano, Assembly Print 6896-B, 21 an act to amend the Retirement and Social 22 Security Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 24 Secretary will read the last section. 25 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. 1 This act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call 3 the roll. 4 (The Secretary called the 5 roll. ) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The 8 bill is passed. 9 Senator Bruno. 10 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 11 is there any housekeeping left at the desk at 12 this time? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator 14 Bruno, there is no housekeeping at the desk. 15 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, 16 there being no further business to come before 17 this Senate at this time and this hour, I move 18 that we stand adjourned subject to the call of 19 the Majority Leader, intervening days to be 20 legislative days, and may I wish you a Merry 21 Christmas and a happy, happy, happy New Year. 22 Thank you. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without 24 objection, the Senate stands adjourned subject 25 to the call of the Majority Leader, 1 intervening days to be legislative days. 2 (Whereupon at 1:42 a.m., the 3 Senate adjourned.) 4 5 6 7 8 9