Tuesday, March 15, 2005

1 NEW YORK STATE SENATE 2 3 4 THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 March 15, 2005 11 1:31 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 LT. GOVERNOR MARY O. DONOHUE, President 19 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary 20 21 22 23 24 25

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 3 Senate will come to order. 4 I ask everyone present to please 5 rise and repeat with me the Pledge of 6 Allegiance. 7 (Whereupon, the assemblage recited 8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 9 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: In the 10 absence of clergy, may we bow our heads in a 11 moment of silence. 12 (Whereupon, the assemblage 13 respected a moment of silence.) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Reading 15 of the Journal. 16 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 17 Monday, March 14, the Senate met pursuant to 18 adjournment. The Journal of Sunday, March 13, 19 was read and approved. On motion, Senate 20 adjourned. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Without 22 objection, the Journal stands approved as 23 read. 24 Presentation of petitions. 25 Messages from the Assembly.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Messages from the Governor. 2 Reports of standing committees. 3 Reports of select committees. 4 Communications and reports from 5 state officers. 6 Motions and resolutions. 7 Senator Skelos. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 9 believe there's a substitution at the desk. 10 If we could make it at this time. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 12 Secretary will read. 13 THE SECRETARY: On page 4, 14 Senator Padavan moves to discharge, from the 15 Committee on Finance, Assembly Bill Number 16 2928B and substitute it for the identical 17 Senate Bill Number 1591B, First Report 18 Calendar 282. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: 20 Substitution so ordered. 21 Senator Skelos. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I 23 move that we adopt the Resolution Calendar. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: All in 25 favor of adopting the Resolution Calendar

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 signify by saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye.") 3 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: 4 Opposed, nay. 5 (No response.) 6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 7 Resolution Calendar is adopted. 8 Senator Skelos. 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 10 if we could go to the noncontroversial reading 11 of the calendar. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 13 Secretary will read. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 60, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 120, an 16 act to amend -- 17 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Lay it 18 aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Lay it 20 aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 156, by Senator Winner, Senate Print 1712A, an 23 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 24 operating a controlled substance 25 establishment.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Read 2 the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect on the first of 5 November. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Call 7 the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll.) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 35. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 11 bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 159, by Senator Golden, Senate Print 2212, an 14 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 15 aggravated loitering. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Read 17 the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Call 21 the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: Lay it 24 aside. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 bill is laid aside. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 164, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 2452, an 4 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 5 establishing the offense of unlawfully 6 residing. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Read 8 the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2 -- 10 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Lay it 11 aside. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Lay it 13 aside. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 171, by Senator Morahan, Senate Print 706, an 16 act to amend the Military Law, in relation to 17 extending certain benefits. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Read 19 the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect immediately. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Call 23 the roll. 24 (The Secretary called the roll.) 25 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 35.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 2 bill is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 179, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 1518, an 5 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law and 6 the Penal Law, in relation to suspension. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Read 8 the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 10 act shall take effect on the first of 11 November. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Call 13 the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 16 the negative on Calendar Number 179 are 17 Senators Duane and Sabini. 18 Ayes, 33. Nays, 2. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 20 bill is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 277, Senate Budget Bill, Senate Print 553D, an 23 act making -- 24 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Lay it 25 aside.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Lay it 2 aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 278, Senate Budget Bill, Senate Print 554D -- 5 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Lay it 6 aside. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Lay it 8 aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 279, Budget Bill, Senate Print 990B -- 11 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Lay it 12 aside. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 14 bill is laid aside. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 280, Budget Bill, Senate Print 991B -- 17 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Lay it 18 aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 20 bill is laid aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 281, Senate Budget Bill, Senate Print 992B, an 23 act to amend the Public Health Law. 24 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Lay it 25 aside.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 2 bill is laid aside. 3 Senator Skelos, that completes the 4 noncontroversial reading of the calendar. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 6 would you please have the clerk ring the bell 7 to indicate that we're on the controversial 8 calendar. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The 10 Secretary will ring the bell. 11 We will commence the controversial 12 calendar. 13 Senator Skelos. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 15 we're about to commence the controversial 16 calendar, so I would urge all members of the 17 Senate to please come over and sit in their 18 seats so they can listen to the debate and 19 also vote accordingly. 20 If we could go to the controversial 21 reading of the calendar. 22 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 23 will read. 24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 25 60, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 120, an

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 act to amend the Environmental Conservation 2 Law, in relation to reducing. 3 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: 4 Explanation. 5 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Johnson, 6 an explanation has been requested. 7 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside 8 temporarily. 9 THE PRESIDENT: The bill will be 10 laid aside temporarily. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 159, by Senator Golden, Senate Print 2212, an 13 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 14 aggravated loitering. 15 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 16 section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 19 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll.) 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President. 22 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Skelos. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: As we go to each 24 bill on the controversial calendar, could we 25 please ring the bell. And we'll pause

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 temporarily so that members can come into the 2 chamber. 3 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 4 will ring the bell. 5 Senator Skelos. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President. 7 Would you please urge the members to find 8 their seats so that we can proceed with the 9 controversial calendar. 10 THE PRESIDENT: Will the members 11 please take their seats so we can proceed with 12 the calendar. 13 Thank you, Senator. 14 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President. 15 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Skelos. 16 SENATOR SKELOS: I believe we're 17 on a roll call now on Senator Golden's bill. 18 If we could proceed with the roll call. 19 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 20 will read the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 23 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 24 (The Secretary called the roll.) 25 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 will announce the results. 2 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 3 the negative on Calendar Number 159 are 4 Senators Duane and Gonzalez. 5 Those absent from voting on 6 Calendar Number 159: Senators Little, 7 Maltese, Montgomery, Oppenheimer and Stavisky. 8 Ayes, 48. Nays, 2. 9 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 10 passed. 11 The Secretary will continue to 12 read. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 164, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 2452, an 15 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 16 establishing. 17 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 18 section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect on the first of 21 November. 22 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll.) 24 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 25 will announce the results.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 2 the negative on Calendar Number 164 are 3 Senators Montgomery and Duane. 4 Those Senators absent from voting 5 on Calendar Number 164 are Senators Brown, 6 Little, Maltese, Oppenheimer and Stavisky. 7 Ayes, 49. Nays, 2. 8 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 9 passed. 10 Senator Skelos. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 12 I believe commencing at 2 o'clock there are 13 going to be two joint conference committee 14 meetings: General Government and Local 15 Assistance, which is Senators Farley, Little, 16 Robach, Wright, and Stachowski; and 17 Agriculture/Environment, Senators Marcellino, 18 Bonacic, McGee, Rath, Trunzo as an alternate, 19 Valesky and Liz Krueger. 20 For those members who are attending 21 those joint conference committees, and this 22 will carry through the next few days, when you 23 return to session, the Journal Clerk will have 24 a form for you to fill out and make a motion 25 that you were attending a joint conference

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 committee meeting so that you can register 2 your vote. 3 When your conference committee is 4 over, I would urge you to come back to the 5 chamber, and certainly before 5 o'clock. 6 So if we could now continue with 7 the controversial calendar. 8 THE PRESIDENT: There will be a 9 joint conference committee meetings at 10 2:00 o'clock, General Government and Local 11 Assistance, and Agriculture. 12 The Secretary will read Calendar 13 Number 60. 14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 15 60, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 120, an 16 act to amend the Environmental Conservation 17 Law. 18 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: 19 Explanation. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Maziarz, 21 an explanation has been requested. 22 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, 23 Madam President. 24 This legislation lowers the age 25 from 14 to 12 that is required to obtain a

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 junior archery license. By lowering the age, 2 we are keeping the minimum age consistent with 3 obtaining a small game license. A junior 4 archery license allows a holder to hunt with a 5 longbow during both the archery and regular 6 hunting season. 7 An individual who has a junior 8 archery license must, according to this 9 legislation, be accompanied by a parent or 10 legal guardian or by a person 18 or over who 11 has had at least one year's experience in 12 hunting with a longbow and such person holds a 13 license to hunt. 14 There are numerous criteria that an 15 individual must pass before becoming eligible 16 for a junior archery license, including the 17 successful passage of a hunting safety and 18 responsibility course. 19 Thank you, Madam President. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Does any other 21 member wish to be heard? 22 Senator Krueger. 23 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you, 24 Madam President. 25 Hello, sponsor.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR MAZIARZ: It's a shame 2 that you have to leave by 2 o'clock for that 3 conference committee. 4 (Laughter.) 5 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Maziarz, 6 do you yield for a question? 7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I do, Madam 8 President. 9 THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, 10 Senator Krueger. 11 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 12 Sponsor -- Senator, what penalty 13 are we paying in the state now for not 14 allowing children this young to be hunting 15 deer and bear? 16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: The penalty -- 17 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Why is it 18 so important to lower the age from 14 to 12? 19 SENATOR MAZIARZ: The penalty, I 20 think, that -- oh, I'm sorry, Senator, I 21 didn't mean to -- 22 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: No, that's 23 okay. 24 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I think the 25 penalty that we are paying, Senator, is that

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 we're giving young children an opportunity to 2 go out and to enjoy an activity with their 3 parents in one particular area of hunting that 4 we're not giving them in another particular 5 area of hunting. 6 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: On the 7 bill, Mr. Chair. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 9 Liz Krueger, on the bill. 10 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 11 We've had this debate now several 12 years, and actually I get reports back 13 afterwards that it entertains some people that 14 I feel so strongly about not lowering the age 15 of hunting bear and deer for children with 16 crossbows. 17 So for the record, but without 18 spending too much time on this busy budget 19 day, I don't see this as an anti-hunting bill, 20 I see this as a protecting children bill. 21 Deer are large. Bear are larger. 22 12-and-13-year-olds tend to be small, 23 sometimes exceptionally small. My research 24 into hunting is that hunting with bows and 25 arrows actually have the highest likelihood of

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 not actually killing the animal immediately, 2 but rather causing them to be maimed and in 3 pain and more likely, in fact, to respond by 4 attacking the hunter. 5 And so without making comment on 6 hunting in general, again, I urge my 7 colleagues to consider the points that I have 8 made, more extensively in previous years, and 9 that are on the record, that the statistics 10 for hunting accidents is highest among young 11 hunters; that bow and arrow hunting is not a 12 guarantee of actually an immediate kill of the 13 animal, increasing the risk to the child; that 14 in New York State, according to the Department 15 of Environmental Conservation, 18 New York 16 State big-game hunters have been mistaken for 17 deer or bear and killed in the state between 18 '92 and 2001; that a third of hunting injuries 19 are self-inflicted and, in most other cases, a 20 friend or relative of the shooter is injured; 21 and the maturity level of 12-and-13-year-olds 22 handling dangerous weapons in a situation in 23 the woods, even though the Senator pointed 24 out, the sponsor pointed out that they must be 25 accompanied by an adult when they are hunting,

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 that the dangers from hunting are highest 2 among those who are least experienced. 3 We're talking young children. 4 We're talking about scenarios where these 5 children are facing a violent sport. And 6 while I agree that parents and children should 7 be spending as much time together in 8 activities that are educational and bonding 9 and pleasurable and include sports, I have to 10 ask the question in this day and age why we 11 want 12-and-13-year-olds to be in a dangerous 12 situation in the woods at risk of, in fact, 13 being the victim of another hunter or a victim 14 of a maimed animal when in fact there are so 15 many other wonderful activities and sports 16 available for parents and children to 17 participate in without the necessity of going 18 into the woods and hunting animals with bows 19 and arrows at the age of 12 and 13. 20 The law now is 14. And surely that 21 is young enough to still learn about the sport 22 of hunting without being put at such great 23 risk at such a young age, when, again, they 24 are immature, they are small, they can be 25 mistaken for game, they can harm themselves,

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 they can harm others. 2 And again, particularly if we're 3 talking about bear -- and I've said it before 4 on the floor, so I'll say it again -- it's 5 perhaps the one category of hunting where the 6 animal stands as good a chance of harming the 7 hunter as the hunter does of harming the 8 animal. 9 I see this as both a bill that goes 10 against common sense for parents with children 11 who -- although I know we are usually hesitant 12 to want to dictate our rules about how parents 13 treat their children, but also a bill that 14 would increase the likelihood of young, small, 15 immature children being harmed when in fact 16 the goal of the day was to have a pleasant 17 sports experience. 18 And that there are so many other 19 sports that parents and children can 20 participate in, and that 14 is young enough, 21 and that this house should not support and 22 encourage younger children from hunting in 23 dangerous situations. 24 Thank you, Mr. President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Stavisky. 2 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 3 if the sponsor would yield for one question. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 5 Maziarz, do you yield for a question? 6 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes, Mr. 7 President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 9 sponsor yields. 10 SENATOR STAVISKY: Through you, 11 Mr. President, I understand how young people 12 can bond with their parents, the mother or the 13 father or somebody, a father figure, in 14 quotes. 15 Can you explain to me why they have 16 to -- why they can't bond when shooting 17 against a bull's-eye in target practice rather 18 than bonding in the killing of a deer? Or 19 bear or whatever animal. 20 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Well, the 21 answer to that question is they can and they 22 do. 23 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you, Mr. 24 President. 25 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 3 Schneiderman. 4 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you, 5 Mr. President. Very briefly on a bill. 6 Actually, on this bill. On the bill. On the 7 bill, thank you. My counsel advises me I 8 should speak on the bill. 9 I find this to be a sort of a 10 baffling exercise in one-house legislation 11 that we go through every couple of years. And 12 I just have to say I'm going to vote against 13 this bill again. 14 I think Senator Krueger has 15 enumerated absolutely reasonable safety 16 concerns, unassailable facts and figures 17 relating to the potential for young children 18 to be injured in these situations. 19 I actually have a 12-year-old. And 20 I assure you, she would be at great risk were 21 she in the woods. She is short, she is not 22 that strong, and she would have trouble 23 operating the bow in this sort of situation 24 and would be vulnerable to all the things 25 Senator Krueger cited, which are documented

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 facts of injuries. 2 I have to add, though, for the 3 sponsor -- because I guess we're going to be 4 seeing this bill again -- any parent who 5 brings their 12-year-old child into the woods 6 to shot at a bear with a longbow is not just a 7 bad hunter but a lousy parent. Because that's 8 just likely to produce an annoyed, irritated, 9 angry animal charging your 12-year-old. 10 If I'm hunting a bear, I'm not 11 going with a longbow, I'll tell you that right 12 now. Deer is one thing, but bear is something 13 else. So maybe as we're going forward you 14 could limit this to animals that are less 15 likely to claw, maul, or bite your 12-year-old 16 after you attempt to shoot at it with a weapon 17 that is really virtually impossible to kill a 18 bear with. 19 I'm going to be voting no, and I 20 respectfully recommend to the sponsor some 21 reconsideration of the animals at issue in 22 this exciting ongoing debate on public policy. 23 Thank you, Mr. President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 25 Montgomery.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr. 2 President. If the sponsor would yield for a 3 question. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 5 Maziarz, do you yield for a question? 6 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes, Mr. 7 President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 9 sponsor yields. 10 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, thank 11 you, Senator Maziarz. 12 I don't have a copy of a memo in 13 support of this legislation. But I note that 14 the Farm Bureau somehow supports it, your 15 bill. Is there any reason that they give as 16 to why it's important to them, the farmers? 17 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Well, for the 18 Farm Bureau -- I don't have the memo in front 19 of me, but I think that the overpopulation of 20 deer is a problem. You know, particularly 21 with fruit and vegetable farmers, where the 22 deer will come in and destroy the crops. 23 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I see. So 24 if I may just pursue that one a little 25 further.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 2 Maziarz, do you yield for another question? 3 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes, I do. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 5 Senator yields. 6 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator 7 Maziarz, then there is a presumption vis-a-vis 8 the Farm Bureau's understanding of the 9 legislation that it sort of targets the deers 10 as opposed to bears and other large animals, 11 is that -- 12 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I think that's 13 one of the reasons that they gave in their 14 memo. 15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: And perhaps 16 squirrels and -- perhaps some squirrels, the 17 squirrels? 18 (Laughter.) 19 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I don't have 20 the memo in front of me. I don't think they 21 mention squirrels in their memo, Senator. 22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Okay. Thank 23 you. That was -- I just wanted to know that. 24 Thank you. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Does any

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 other member wish to be heard? 2 Senator Volker. 3 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, I 4 have to say here we go into the other cultural 5 issues here. 6 Senator Krueger, I don't think 7 anybody has ever shot a bow and arrow in your 8 district; that is, in Manhattan. But there 9 are thousands of people who shoot -- 10 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: You've 11 never heard of the Robin Hood Killer, famous 12 case? 13 (Laughter.) 14 SENATOR VOLKER: Well, I'm 15 talking about legally. 16 (Laughter.) 17 SENATOR VOLKER: Let me just say 18 this. The problem here is the Humane Society 19 is opposed to any kind of hunting at all. In 20 most of New York State, and I say most of 21 New York State, young people start hunting at 22 a very early age. Twelve is not really as low 23 as it could be. But we're talking about 12 24 for legal hunting, and where parents are with 25 the children.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 A very short season, by the way. 2 You have to realize that when you're talking 3 about bear hunting, there's only a couple of 4 places in this state you can hunt bear. And 5 that's mostly in the Adirondacks. We don't 6 have, thank God, bear in Western New York. 7 Once in a while one ambles in, but you can't 8 shoot it. 9 So you have to understand what this 10 is all about. This is really about rural 11 life. Ninety-nine percent of this is about 12 young people who are more than capable of 13 handling bow and arrows. They couldn't handle 14 crossbows. Of course, it's not legal to use 15 crossbows in most of this state. 16 But I think the problem here is we 17 think in terms of criminals, because it's hard 18 for us to understand that the tradition of 19 this state is that young people are able to 20 hunt and are able to be responsible with their 21 parents. If you don't do that, you're going 22 to create problems. Criminal problems also, 23 by the way, because people are going to do it, 24 they're going to do it illegally, and you're 25 going to have problems.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 I realize -- and I don't mean to be 2 difficult about this, but there is a huge 3 difference in the mindset of New York City and 4 of upstate New York. I mean, the fictitious 5 nonsense about the canned hunt was the -- 6 people look at canned hunts and say, Oh, this 7 is terrible, because there's one group that 8 does a bad job with the canned hunt in this 9 state. 10 The truth is that much of this is 11 totally misunderstood. And there are small 12 groups of people who don't like society in 13 this country, by the way, and who would prefer 14 to have us believe that kids of 12 and 14 15 years old are totally immature unless they 16 murder somebody. Because that's happened, by 17 the way. And we have to realize that there is 18 a certain responsibility we have to develop 19 with young people. 20 You're going to have hunting in 21 most of New York whether you like it or not. 22 The question is, is it going to be legal 23 hunting and are parents going to guide their 24 children, or is it going to be done in a way 25 in which we prefer not to?

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Now, if you want to do what so 2 often happens, and that is ban all hunting in 3 New York City, which is -- it is banned now 4 anyways. And if you want to say you can't use 5 a crossbow, a hand -- anything you want, 6 that's up to you. I think it's silly, but if 7 you want to do that, because almost nobody 8 does it, they come up to my region. And we 9 keep an eye on them, because usually they -- 10 they're not the most -- you know, they're 11 sometimes a problem. 12 We always say out in my area, and I 13 live outside the admitted urban areas, that 14 some of the Buffalo hunters -- and by Buffalo, 15 I mean Buffalo people -- come out, because 16 they don't do much hunting. And you got to 17 keep an eye on them, because sometimes they 18 are a little reckless. But you know why they 19 are? Because they don't have any experience 20 the way young people do in the suburbs and in 21 the rural areas with not only handling guns, 22 but handling things like bow and arrows. It's 23 part of their education. 24 And you can say all you want -- and 25 I don't mean to denigrate. I think you

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 probably have many people in your region that 2 could do it and could do it well. The only 3 trouble is that there is a bias against the 4 normal people who in this state want to hunt, 5 want to fish, and want to do all those things, 6 because there are people that consider that to 7 be cruel and inhuman. 8 Well, that's fine, except that's 9 the way we all grew up in this country. And I 10 mean all, meaning our parents and our families 11 and so forth. 12 So it just seems to me that because 13 the Humane Society, which is opposed to any 14 kind of activity that protects animals as well 15 as hunting -- it just seems to me that I think 16 that the Farm Bureau and a lot of the hunting 17 groups are much more capable of understanding 18 the issue of archery. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Any 20 other Senator wish to be heard on the bill? 21 Debate is closed, then. 22 The Secretary will ring the bell, 23 please. 24 Read the last section. 25 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the 3 roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll.) 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 6 Balboni, to explain his vote. 7 SENATOR BALBONI: Mr. President, 8 I supported this measure last year and am 9 constrained not to do so this year. And the 10 reason for the change is that I have begun a 11 great discussion with Senator Volker about the 12 nuances and complexities of hunting in 13 New York State. 14 And I think some of the arguments 15 that we have back and forth are going to be 16 resolved. But until they do, I'm going to err 17 on the side of not allowing for this expansion 18 at this current particular time. 19 Thank you, Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 21 Balboni will be recorded in the negative. 22 Senator Skelos. 23 SENATOR SKELOS: If I could 24 explain my vote. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Skelos, to explain his vote. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: I'm going to 3 support this legislation because I'm concerned 4 that Senator Schneiderman and some of my 5 colleagues from the city -- and I know 6 everybody is just waiting for this comment -- 7 are confusing hunting bear and bare hunting. 8 (Laughter.) 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 10 Schneiderman, to explain his vote. 11 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: I don't 12 want there to be any dispute as to my record 13 on this issue. I support bare hunting. 14 (Laughter.) 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 16 Secretary will announce the results. 17 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 18 the negative on Calendar Number 60 are 19 Senators Andrews, Balboni, Diaz, Duane, Klein, 20 L. Krueger, LaValle, Montgomery, Morahan, 21 Onorato, Oppenheimer, Padavan, Parker, 22 Schneiderman, Serrano, A. Smith, M. Smith and 23 Stavisky. 24 Those absent from voting on 25 Calendar Number 60 are Senators Bonacic,

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Farley, Little, Marcellino, Robach, 2 Stachowski, Trunzo, Valesky and Wright. 3 Ayes, 32. Nays, 18. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 5 is passed. 6 Lions and tigers and bears, oh my. 7 The Secretary will continue to 8 read. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 277, Senate Budget Bill, Senate Print 553D -- 11 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: 12 Explanation. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 14 Skelos. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 16 if it would be possible, at this time we're 17 going to be discussing different budget bills. 18 And perhaps we can tone things down in the 19 chamber a little bit and members can come into 20 the chamber that are not at a conference 21 committee. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Could we 23 ask members to come into the chamber. 24 We ask members in the chamber to 25 refrain from conversation so that we can get

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 our business done. 2 Senator Johnson, an explanation has 3 been requested. 4 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 5 this is the Education, Labor and Family 6 Assistance bill, and something we'd like to 7 adopt today. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 9 Montgomery. 10 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr. 11 President. I would like to ask the sponsor to 12 yield to a couple of questions. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 14 Johnson, do you yield for a question? 15 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Mr. 16 President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 18 sponsor yields. 19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes. 20 Senator Johnson, can you give me some idea of 21 exactly what is in this budget in terms of the 22 education funding? 23 SENATOR JOHNSON: The Senate has 24 added an increase, a school-year increase of 25 $626 million, according to the formulas.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 That's above the amount that the Governor 2 proposes, which was $201 million. Flex aid, 3 full funding of BOCES aid, special services 4 aid, public and private excess cost aid, and 5 also additional money for public libraries, 6 public broadcasting, et cetera. 7 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Mr. 8 President, through you, if the sponsor would 9 continue to yield. 10 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Mr. 11 President. 12 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Mr. 13 President, I would like to, through you, ask 14 Senator Johnson what is the percent of 15 increase in this budget for the CFE 16 specifically. 17 SENATOR JOHNSON: As you know, 18 Senator, it does not deal with CFE at all, 19 since the Governor is appealing that decision. 20 And until that's resolved, we're not 21 appropriating the money for that. 22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Do you 23 have -- is there some targeted number that our 24 budget, as we're looking at this budget, your 25 budget, reflects as it relates to an attempt

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 to address CFE, even though we have not come 2 to an agreement? 3 SENATOR JOHNSON: The school year 4 increase of $626 million, which I mentioned to 5 you, would cover all schools according to the 6 present formula. We haven't changed the 7 formula. 8 Okay. This money is going to be 9 dispensed according to the present formula, 10 period. 11 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 13 Schneiderman. 14 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you, 15 Mr. President. If the sponsor would rise 16 for -- 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 18 Johnson, do you yield to a question from 19 Senator Schneiderman? 20 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Mr. 21 President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 23 sponsor yields. 24 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you. 25 Just to clarify what this does to

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 the Governor's proposal, this Senate Budget 2 Bill eliminates the $325 million Sound Basic 3 Education fund that the Governor proposed and 4 provides a pot of $400 million distributed 5 according to the current formula; is that 6 correct? 7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 8 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you. 9 Mr. President, on the bill. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 11 Schneiderman, on the bill. 12 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: We will be 13 discussing this bill. We'll be seeking to 14 amend this bill. But I think that the one 15 central point that we have to focus on as a 16 house is the fact that we are eliminating a 17 proposal. 18 And again, I guess it's the second 19 day in a row I've got something good to say 20 about the Governor. The Governor, to his 21 credit, proposed a Sound Basic Education fund 22 that would distribute school aid primarily 23 based on need. 24 What we're doing here is taking a 25 step backwards. Because while the Senate

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 proposes $400 million instead of $325 million, 2 which is a small increase, we're going back to 3 the same old formula which it has been clearly 4 stated and documented by the Court of Appeals 5 and by the trial court, in excruciatingly 6 detailed findings of fact, that the City of 7 New York and other high-needs school districts 8 are shortchanged under this formula. 9 So I think this is an issue that we 10 should address. There are a great many 11 improvements that were made in the Senate's 12 budget bills over the Governor's Executive 13 proposal. Unfortunately, when it comes to 14 what many of us view as one of the most 15 central issues before the state today, the 16 adequate and fair funding of our public school 17 system, here the Senate is taking a step 18 backward. 19 So we will seek to address this 20 issue. And, Mr. President, I believe there's 21 an amendment at the desk. And I ask that the 22 reading of the amendment be waived, and I ask 23 to be heard on the amendment. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 25 amendment is at the desk. The reading is

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 waived, and you're recognized to explain the 2 amendment. 3 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you 4 very much. 5 The Campaign for Fiscal Equity 6 decision is not something that, as some would 7 have it, was originated by what are called 8 "educrats." It was initiated by parents in 9 School District 6, in my district, in 10 Washington Heights. It was initiated because 11 they realized that their children were getting 12 inadequate educations throughout the district 13 and throughout the City of New York, that 14 there were hundreds of thousands of children 15 being inadequately educated. 16 It is incomprehensible to me that 17 we are here now passing a budget in 2005 that 18 does not address the issues raised by the CFE 19 case. And I realize that there is a certain 20 attitude that prevails among some members of 21 the Legislature that if we can avoid this 22 problem as long as we can, that should be an 23 acceptable way to deal with the problem. 24 That is unacceptable, and it should 25 be unacceptable to every member of this house

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 on both sides of the aisle. We cannot allow 2 children to lose the opportunity for a decent 3 education. If there is one thing that should 4 be sacrosanct in our civil society, in our 5 secular government, it should be a public 6 school education of high quality for every 7 child. That is the key to the American way of 8 life, that is the key to opportunity, that is 9 the key to economic success -- not just for 10 individuals, but for us as a state. 11 We cannot compete with other 12 states. We certainly can't compete 13 internationally with Germany and Taiwan and 14 other places with great public school systems 15 if we do not provide a sound, basic education 16 for all of our children. 17 The Court of Appeals in the CFE 18 case simply said we had a constitutional 19 obligation to provide it. It had been 20 demonstrated by the plaintiffs that there are 21 schools all over the City of New York -- and 22 in fact, we know that there are schools in 23 other parts of the state too -- that were not 24 providing a sound, basic education. And they 25 said, fix it. It's our constitutional

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 obligation. 2 Last year we had the latest budget 3 in history. Some members of the Assembly, it 4 has been charged, held out specifically to get 5 money for CFE. After the latest budget in 6 history, the longest holdout in the history of 7 the state, New York City, which had been 8 receiving 37.15 percent of the state's school 9 aid, received some new money. And because we 10 added a little bit of money, New York City 11 received 37.23 percent of the new money. That 12 is an increase of .08 percent over a formula 13 and a distribution that was found to be 14 unacceptable, unconstitutional and that leaves 15 hundreds of thousands of our children in 16 inadequate schools. 17 We are not asking for luxury. But 18 there are ways to provide this money. This 19 amendment would add, to the Governor's 20 $325 million that he proposed for a Sound 21 Basic Education fund, $562.4 million. And we 22 have -- this would add to the SBE fund. We 23 follow the same distribution formula the 24 Governor would. 25 This would result in the Buffalo

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 school district receiving $26.3 million in aid 2 more than they received last year. This would 3 provide, for the City of New York, 4 62.2 percent of the total Sound Basic 5 Education aid, which is in line with the Zarb 6 Commission and every other commission that has 7 examined the need to revise the funding 8 formula. 9 And this would serve as a message 10 to the people of the State of New York and the 11 City of New York that we're not ignoring our 12 constitutional responsibilities, that the 13 Senate of this state is not saying, You know 14 what, we have all these findings of fact that 15 children are getting inadequate education, 16 that there are children being taught in 17 bathrooms, in closets, that there are 18 lunchrooms that are running, because of the 19 overcrowding in those schools, on a schedule 20 where kids have 20 minutes for lunch and they 21 are running from 9:00 in the morning till 2:00 22 in the afternoon. 23 If you had a school system in any 24 other district -- and we've been accused of 25 wanting too much money for the city -- where

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 73 percent of the children were eligible for 2 the federal free lunch program, because that's 3 how poor they are, you would want more money, 4 you would vote for more money. If you had a 5 school district where 442,000 children came 6 from families receiving Aid to Families with 7 Dependent Children, you would vote for more 8 money for that district. When you have a 9 higher portion of the children who are not 10 native English speakers, as we have, where you 11 have 135,000 children enrolled in special 12 education programs, this is a school district 13 in New York City that deserves and needs more 14 money so we can have a sound, basic education 15 for every one of our children. 16 And the Court of Appeals has 17 recognized that, experts that have looked at 18 this have recognized that, and yet the Senate 19 in the budget this year has walked away from 20 its responsibility. 21 If you support this amendment, if 22 we go back to the Governor and say, Resubmit 23 this, we will have the money for it. We do 24 not raise taxes to generate this money. We 25 adopt three commonsense proposals to close

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 corporate tax loopholes. 2 We eliminate a loophole that allows 3 corporations to use intersubsidiary 4 transactions to shift incomes into states and 5 counties that have no corporate tax. So a 6 corporation in New York could shift income to 7 a Delaware subsidiary and not pay tax. We 8 close that loophole. That will generate 9 $400 million. Combined reporting is done in 10 17 other states; we should do it here. 11 We also can reform New York's 12 corporate alternate minimum tax, which had 13 many loopholes added to it over the last 14 decade that specifically favor multistate 15 corporations. We should have the same rules 16 for those big corporations as we do for small 17 businesses. That would generate another 18 $200 million. 19 And if we reform the Empire Zone 20 program and have oversight tying the provision 21 of tax breaks and resources to the creation of 22 jobs, we could save another $175 million. 23 That's simple common sense, good 24 public policy, treating like transactions 25 alike, treating all businesses fairly. And

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 that would generate the money we need for the 2 $562 million. 3 This is not a one-shot. This is 4 recurring revenue. Let's put a down payment 5 on CFE. Let's add the $562 million to our 6 school funding formula, in accordance with the 7 distribution system proposed by Governor 8 Pataki. He did the right thing on the 9 distribution formula this year. Let's get rid 10 of this $400 million mystery pot of money 11 that's in the Senate bill, and let's go back 12 to a formula where we can tell the voters of 13 this state that we are voting to distribute 14 based on need and we are going to provide a 15 down payment on the CFE decision. 16 I urge everyone to support this 17 amendment, Mr. President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 19 Oppenheimer. 20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I'd like to 21 speak in support of this amendment. 22 This morning I was at a wonderful 23 discussion, the Warren Anderson Lecture 24 Series. And I think perhaps I was the only 25 Senator there, which is unfortunate, because

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 it really was a very interesting discussion. 2 And one of the things that I came 3 away thinking this was really the heart of it, 4 was when Michael Rebell, who was the leader in 5 the CFE case, said we really have to make a 6 choice in this state. Either we are going to 7 keep the same amount of money and lower our 8 Regents standards, or, if we are going to keep 9 the higher Regents standards, we have to add 10 the money in order to help our kids to meet 11 the higher standards. 12 And that seems to be the crux of 13 it. Where do we want to go here? 14 Obviously we feel that the Regents 15 standards are very important and produce 16 students who can meet them to graduate and 17 perhaps, more likely than not, go on to 18 college. We know large numbers of our 19 Hispanic students and our black students are 20 not meeting the standards. And therefore, 21 that is why we're saying if we are keeping the 22 higher standards we must provide additional 23 funding to help these children that need that 24 extra effort in order to meet the standards. 25 Many, many states have faced the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 same problem. We are not alone in New York 2 State. But it's interesting that in most of 3 the states where this case -- a similar case 4 has come up, that in most of the states, the 5 courts have decided for the plaintiffs. And 6 the various states are doing their best to try 7 and meet the needs of the students and the 8 decision of the courts. 9 I guess I didn't want to say too 10 much more on this subject. I do want to talk 11 on the next amendment, which will concern 12 itself with capital construction. 13 But I think it's up to us to decide 14 what it is we really want for all the kids in 15 this state. Do we want them to meet the 16 higher standards? We have to provide more 17 funds. It's not just money, we know that. 18 But money is an essential piece of it. 19 Thank you. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: On the 21 amendment, those Senators in agreement please 22 signify by raising your hand. 23 The Secretary will announce the 24 results. 25 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 agreement are Senators Breslin, Brown, Diaz, 2 Dilan, Duane, Gonzalez, Hassell-Thompson, 3 Klein, L. Krueger, C. Kruger, Montgomery, 4 Onorato, Oppenheimer, Parker, Paterson, 5 Sabini, Sampson, Savino, Schneiderman, 6 Serrano, A. Smith, M. Smith, Stachowski, 7 Stavisky. Also Senator Andrews. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 9 amendment is not agreed to. 10 Senator Saland. 11 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 12 President. On the bill. 13 I listened certainly very carefully 14 to both Senator Johnson as well as Senator 15 Schneiderman and Senator Oppenheimer. 16 This proposal that the Senate has 17 advanced certainly is a proposal that enriches 18 considerably the amount of funding that the -- 19 in excess of the amount of funding the 20 Governor had proposed for the education K-12 21 portion of his budget. 22 As you will recall, the Governor's 23 budget proposed some $201 million in one or 24 another operating aid formula and some 25 $325 million in his SBE, Sound Basic Education

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 fund. 2 We have preserved that 3 $325 million, in effect, setting it aside for 4 a couple of reasons. Number one, there is no 5 negotiated agreement between us and the 6 Assembly and the Governor, notwithstanding the 7 great desire of this majority to have such an 8 agreement. 9 Unfortunately, the politics of the 10 issue being what they are, the bottom line is 11 that the referee's decision or report 12 incorporated by Judge DeGrasse in his decision 13 has set what for the Assembly is a floor, a 14 floor which to the Senate, this majority, is a 15 ceiling -- and an unattainable ceiling, 16 because spending $14.6 or $14.8 billion five 17 years out, coming off this budget with 18 $15.5 billion in the highest per capita aid of 19 any state in this nation, is simply a bit 20 unrealistic, at least unrealistic in my 21 opinion. 22 And the simple fact of the matter 23 is that that's without dealing with the needs 24 of the rest of the state. This majority has 25 consistently expressed its desire for a

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 statewide solution. We have expressed our 2 willingness and interest to try and negotiate. 3 But the position of the court has basically 4 created a political climate in which the 5 Assembly dare not negotiate down. 6 So I fear, notwithstanding the fact 7 that we're willing to set aside some money to 8 deal with SBE -- can I have some quiet, 9 please, Mr. President? I'm having a difficult 10 time hearing myself. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Can we 12 have some order in the chamber. 13 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr. 14 President. 15 In the absence of that agreement, 16 what we have is a Supreme Court decision. Not 17 a Court of Appeals decision, a Supreme Court 18 decision. A Supreme Court decision which some 19 if not many believe is on very shaky ground in 20 terms of directing this Legislature, which 21 isn't even a party to the action, to 22 appropriate some 14-plus billion dollars some 23 five years from now. 24 When you read the referee's report, 25 when you read the decision that was rendered

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 by Judge DeGrasse, you look at a couple of 2 precedents. One, which the referees offered, 3 which was truly so weak that, in one of the 4 rare occasions I agreed with Judge DeGrasse, 5 he was too embarrassed to include it as one of 6 his precedents, where the court relied on some 7 relatively inconsequential Supreme Court case 8 coming out of the City of New York setting the 9 fees for 18B attorneys, a stretch beyond the 10 imagination of any reasonable thinking person. 11 And to Judge DeGrasse's credit, he elected not 12 to go there. 13 The other case upon which he relies 14 upon, quite candidly, other than the desire of 15 Judge Kaye to drive policy in this state, 16 probably would not stand muster with many 17 lawyers who would look at this objectively 18 either as a constitutional issue or an issue 19 of interpretation. 20 But that being said, this is a 21 Supreme Court decision. And you can't pick 22 those decisions that you like and those 23 decisions that you don't like as a matter of 24 governance. And it is a matter of governance. 25 You can't let some judge in Manhattan or some

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 judge in Watertown or some judge in 2 Plattsburgh or some judge in Poughkeepsie 3 who's a lower court judge, which is basically 4 a trial court, drive state policy. 5 If the Court of Appeals wants to be 6 the arbiter of social policy, for better or 7 worse -- and, in my opinion, worse -- they 8 have the ability to do that. They've done it 9 in family law, they've done it on the death 10 penalty, they've done it with regard to the 11 powers of the Governor, they've done it with 12 regard to education, they've done it hither 13 and yon, and they've done it really over the 14 course of the past several years just about to 15 a fare-thee-well. 16 Now, the comment was -- I think 17 earlier I heard Senator Schneiderman say 18 something about avoiding the problem as long 19 as we can, in the context of dealing with CFE. 20 I believe that our position is 21 really tempered by reality, tempered by the 22 fact that, as I mentioned earlier, in the 23 absence of an agreement, which may well prove 24 unattainable, it would be a sorry state of 25 affairs to let a Supreme Court judge determine

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 that we have to appropriate billions of 2 dollars -- regardless of what the cause may 3 be, whether it be for public protection, 4 whether it be for education, whether it be for 5 health care, whether it be for any service you 6 can name. 7 That is not within the domain of a 8 trial court judge. For that matter, I don't 9 believe it's within the domain of the Court of 10 Appeals and threatens a grave constitutional 11 crisis if it gets there. But that's something 12 for a little later. 13 One other comment. And perhaps I 14 misunderstood the context of the comment or 15 the comment. Again, in Senator Schneiderman's 16 remarks, he made some reference to the formula 17 being found unconstitutional. Let me assure 18 you that the Court of Appeals has not found 19 the formula to be unconstitutional. Lacking 20 in transparency, yes. Cumbersome, yes. But 21 they have not found the formulas to be 22 unconstitutional. 23 Can we do better? Perhaps we may 24 well be able to do better. And we should 25 welcome the opportunity to do so. But that's

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 not the context within which we're dealing 2 now. 3 To set aside money to deal with CFE 4 when we don't know what the outcome of this 5 process is going to be and have no idea what 6 the consequences in the outyears will be, to 7 arbitrarily pick a number -- or less than 8 arbitrarily pick a number, if you want to 9 consider it to be a rational exercise -- still 10 does not deal with a multitude of issues, 11 particularly the costs associated with 12 outyears. 13 So this proposal is the proposal 14 that we will take to the table. It's a 15 proposal which I believe is fair, it's a 16 proposal that addresses the situation with 17 which we are currently confronted that exists 18 today. It doesn't deal in the realm of the 19 hypothetical. We're dealing with the status 20 with which we are presented. 21 I urge my colleagues to vote in 22 favor of this measure. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Any 24 other Senator wish to be heard on the bill? 25 Senator Stavisky.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President, 2 I would just like to comment on one aspect of 3 Senator Saland's comments. 4 I agree that it is the 5 responsibility of the Legislature in our State 6 Constitution in Article XI, where the 7 Legislature shall provide for a system of -- I 8 think it's free common education, common 9 schools where all the children of the state 10 may be educated. 11 However, when we fail to do that, 12 then we have to rely upon the courts. And it 13 seems to me that if we didn't rely on the 14 courts in the past, then we would still have 15 separate but equal schools. 16 Thank you, Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 18 Liz Krueger. 19 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you, 20 Mr. President. On the bill. There's so much 21 in this bill. 22 I appreciated my colleague's 23 comments on public education and the CFE 24 lawsuit and respect my colleague Senator 25 Saland and his point of view. But I suppose

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 my point of view is slightly different. It's 2 what a shame that the courts are telling us 3 what to do, and the shame is ours because we 4 failed to do what we needed to do for public 5 education for so many years. 6 Well, my colleagues have spoken 7 eloquently on that. So I'd like to talk about 8 the section of this bill that perhaps is a 9 similar theme, what we failed to do in higher 10 education and what we may continue to do if we 11 move forward as this bill proposes. 12 Why are we in so much trouble in 13 the New York City school system and other 14 underserved districts in this state? Because 15 we failed to make the investment in public 16 education and we failed to ensure that our 17 children K-12 could get the education that 18 they need to become citizens and compete in 19 our labor market. 20 And what is the path we seem to be 21 walking down over the last decade in the State 22 of New York when it comes to higher education? 23 We're also failing to follow through on the 24 commitments that we know work in public higher 25 education. We know that the great State of

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 New York is a state that is dependent on 2 having an educated workforce; that the labor 3 market demands more and more of us and our 4 children and the next generation; that we are 5 a high-tech state -- we are striving to become 6 even more of a high-tech state, in fact, 7 investing state monies in research and 8 development and technology and the next 9 generation of science. 10 But we won't keep those jobs and no 11 one will come here to start businesses and 12 they certainly won't stay here if we're not 13 producing young people out of our public 14 education system that have the skills that 15 they need. 16 So the fact that there's research 17 showing that between '94-'95 and 2004-2005 18 state spending on higher education decreased 19 by 3.2 percent and support for SUNY and CUNY 20 decreased by 17.5 percent, if you adjusted it 21 for inflation; the fact that during that same 22 period, tuition costs in SUNY have jumped by 23 29 percent, in CUNY by 28 percent, adjusted 24 for inflation; the fact that the combination 25 of declining state support and increasing

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 tuition has led to students and their families 2 having to take on an increasingly larger share 3 of funding the cost for higher ed; the fact 4 that our commitment to higher ed pales behind 5 almost every other state in the country; the 6 fact that as we make it more expensive to go 7 to our universities in New York State, we find 8 that it's taking our students longer, they are 9 having to balance out working longer hours 10 with trying to get through their classes, 11 making it impossible for them to in fact excel 12 in their educational endeavors as they ought 13 to; and that while this year I suppose we can 14 all feel a little good that we've reversed 15 some of the Governor's proposed cuts to TAP, 16 that's the game we play here every year. 17 The Governor attacks the TAP 18 program and several other programs we all know 19 and all care about -- HEOP, EOP, SEEK -- and 20 then we feel victorious that we put them back. 21 And in this bill, I don't believe we even 22 completely put TAP back. And so we make no 23 progress, and we technically continue to fall 24 further behind in our commitment to higher 25 education. And yet we go: Well, we saved TAP

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 and we saved HEOP and we saved SEEK. 2 That's not the assignment. The 3 assignment is to make sure that we continue 4 our commitment to higher education. 5 Certainly if we hope that our state 6 will have jobs in the future and will have 7 businesses who want to stay here and not flee 8 to other states, there is, as my colleagues 9 said when they talked about K-12 education, 10 there is no more important commitment that the 11 state has -- and I believe, despite our 12 arguments on CFE, I believe that Senator 13 Saland agrees with me, there is no greater 14 commitment than our commitment to public 15 education. 16 But that is not just K-12, that is 17 for college students as well. And the 18 proposal this year to somehow pretend that 19 we're not continuing our plan to cut our 20 commitment to higher education by proposing 21 this frozen tuition with each freshman 22 semester -- with each incoming freshman class, 23 excuse me, is also, please, a game of smoke 24 and mirrors. 25 You need to look at the findings

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 from other states that went down the road of 2 claiming they were indexing annual tuition 3 increases only for incoming freshmen. And 4 each of those states have in fact violated 5 that commitment. And we will violate that 6 commitment when we find ourselves short of 7 money next year or the year after. 8 So we should not be starting out 9 our plan for SUNY and CUNY by actually 10 proposing that we're going to freeze in annual 11 increases. We have to look at the ground that 12 we've lost and make the commitment to make up 13 on that. We are going to be dependent on this 14 year's college students when we are senior 15 citizens and need to make sure that others 16 have taken responsibility for our state, and 17 yet this budget bill goes the wrong direction 18 on higher education. 19 This budget bill also -- a complex 20 bill, education, labor and family 21 assistance -- in addition to what I don't 22 believe are the right answers for higher 23 education, also raises some serious questions 24 about what we're doing in social services and 25 the Office of Temporary and Disability

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Assistance. 2 Because while I had hoped that this 3 house would join in arguing against the 4 Governor's proposal for a flexible funding 5 block grant of a billion dollars in federal 6 TANF money, we do not reject that proposal in 7 this bill. But we should. We should reject 8 this because your localities, if they talk to 9 you, may have told you they want to reject it. 10 My locality, the City of New York, 11 is opposed to this. They see this as a shift 12 from state responsibility and authority to the 13 local level. We claim it offers flexibility; 14 it actually offers less money, even in the 15 short run, and no money if the federal 16 government, through reauthorization of the 17 federal TANF bill, does away with these 18 monies. 19 We hand the responsibility to our 20 counties without the money, but it would give 21 us an out when the federal government doesn't 22 move that billion dollars to us. 23 That is also a dangerous precedent 24 for us as we continue to complain, because we 25 hear from the localities about unfunded

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 mandates, we continue to complain about each 2 other, about the other house, that we pass 3 these responsibilities, without the money, 4 over to our counties. And this is a 5 billion-dollar smoke and mirror trick that the 6 Governor is proposing, and we should not be 7 moving forward with that proposal this year. 8 If in fact the federal government 9 changes the rules of TANF, as I think most of 10 us suspect they will, then we should 11 reevaluate how the State of New York applies 12 its own rules, maneuvers with its own 13 legislation and its own options to maximize 14 federal dollars and best-case scenarios for 15 our districts and our counties. We should 16 not, in the final moments of federal 17 reauthorization of the TANF law, suddenly try 18 a new experiment with a billion dollars that 19 may not in fact be there for your counties, 20 having given them the responsibility for it. 21 It's a dangerous time to try such a 22 very, very high cost experiment. And there's 23 not one of us who would go back to talk to our 24 districts who might not find, as I have, that 25 in fact their districts are opposed to this

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 gift from the State of New York and, rather, 2 see it as a Trojan horse. And we should not 3 continue down that road. 4 I am going to vote against this 5 bill, although I would like to say there are 6 some good things in this bill and I am glad 7 that we are making some improvements over the 8 Governor -- but not at the price of so many 9 other mistakes we make in this bill and not at 10 the price of so many issues. We should 11 discuss in detail among ourselves, in 12 committees, in hearings, with the public 13 before we vote on this legislation. 14 But I'll be voting no. Thank you, 15 Mr. President. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 17 Oppenheimer. 18 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I just want 19 to make one brief comment on the K-12 20 education budget, and that's just to clarify a 21 potential misunderstanding which I heard today 22 come up in the Warren Anderson lecture. 23 And that is that wealthier 24 districts are opposed to what is occurring 25 under CFE. I can only speak from the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 knowledge that I have. I do represent 2 probably the wealthiest group of school 3 districts in the state. And I have spoken in 4 Scarsdale, in Chappaqua, in Armonk, in 5 Briarcliff Manor -- very wealthy districts, 6 and they are all supportive of the CFE 7 findings, the court findings. 8 Because they feel that the state is 9 more than just them, that the issue is more 10 than just their school district, that in order 11 for this state to move ahead in the next 12 decade and after, all of our children need the 13 same education or as close as it can get to 14 the quality education that those districts are 15 now providing for their students. 16 Thank you. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 18 LaValle. 19 SENATOR LAVALLE: Thank you, Mr. 20 President. 21 I was not going to speak, but after 22 Senator Krueger spoke I just wanted the record 23 to be clear that we did restore TAP in this 24 budget. 25 And I think the higher ed budget

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 continues to provide opportunities for the 2 students of our state, not only through the 3 Tuition Assistance Program, which was very, 4 very important -- the Opportunity programs, 5 money was restored, increases in the base aid 6 for our community colleges in both SUNY and 7 CUNY, and I think to meet the operating needs 8 of both the State University system and the 9 City University system. 10 I think this is probably one of the 11 most balanced approaches. And we added 12 $243 million to where the Governor was in his 13 budget. So I think that I am, you know, very, 14 very pleased. And I think after we get done 15 with conference committees and so forth, I 16 think what you see in this budget for higher 17 education and even the language in the 18 language bills will be very close to where we 19 will be. 20 But I just wanted to make that 21 clarification on TAP. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 23 Parker. 24 SENATOR PARKER: Thank you, Mr. 25 President. On the bill.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 I'm glad to hear our chairman on 2 Higher Education give a vote of confidence to 3 this legislation. But I'm still disturbed by 4 the fact that I think we have one of the most 5 anti-education governors in the history of the 6 United States, somebody who has consistently 7 not provided the kind of funding that this 8 state needs, has not provided the kind of 9 funding for education that the people of my 10 district need in the 21st Senatorial District 11 in Brooklyn, of Flatbush and East Flatbush, 12 Midwood, Ditmas Park, Kensington and Borough 13 Park. 14 We have several public schools and 15 a CUNY college that, quite frankly, depends 16 both within the context of employment but, as 17 well, for the educational needs. This is a 18 university system that, you know, despite 19 being underfunded, you know, produced two 20 Rhodes Scholars. And, you know, they joked 21 last week that they can do more with less, 22 imagine how much they could do with nothing. 23 And I think that we are trying to get to that 24 point. 25 I think that despite the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 improvements that we've made beyond the 2 Governor's original suggestion, that we still 3 don't go far enough in terms of providing the 4 kind of support that we need for CUNY, for 5 SUNY. And certainly we have not met the basic 6 educational needs under CFE. 7 I have been appalled, mostly by the 8 lack of respect for the appellate court that 9 I've heard from members of this house, that 10 I've heard from others. And I was happy to 11 hear Senator Saland express the fact that 12 that's exactly right, that we cannot pick and 13 choose what we're going to enforce and what 14 we're not going to enforce. We have a court 15 order that we still have not enforced in this 16 state. 17 And in this legislation, we are 18 still not meeting the funding requirements 19 that are going to ensure a sound, basic 20 education for the children of New York City. 21 And I think that we should continue to talk 22 about it. I think that, you know, we can come 23 up with something that it continues to not 24 just deal -- as I said last year, that not 25 just deals with New York City but also extends

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 to, you know, other high-needs districts 2 around the state. 3 And for that reason, I'll be voting 4 no. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 6 Montgomery. 7 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr. 8 President. I just did not want the 9 opportunity to pass to mention one of the 10 small but very, very important issues that I 11 have a problem with in this legislation, in 12 this proposal, budget proposal. 13 And that is the language that would 14 transfer the State Library, Museum and 15 Archives to a public-benefit corporation and 16 call it the New York State Institute for 17 Cultural Education. 18 Cultural -- the cultural 19 institutions in our state are indeed 20 educational institutions. They belong, I 21 believe, in State Ed. They should be viewed 22 as part of the continuum of education, from 23 early childhood education right up through and 24 including adult education, that these are not 25 separate but a part of.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 And it's very unfortunate that the 2 Governor has chosen to attempt to separate out 3 our cultural institutions so that they do not 4 continue to be partnered, in a very close and 5 real sense, with education. 6 I note that the Senate rejected the 7 attempt to take VESID out, and I'm very happy 8 to hear that. But I am sad to know that we 9 did not fight, as we always have, to maintain 10 the cultural institutions as part of State 11 Education. 12 So that saddens me, because I think 13 this is very shortsighted. And certainly it 14 goes in the opposite direction of where we are 15 trying to take youngsters, and that is we 16 would like for the cultural institutions to 17 support schools and not separate themselves 18 out. 19 And I'm being given a signal that 20 I'm wrong, and I'm happy to be corrected. So, 21 Mr. President, if Senator Johnson would yield 22 to answer whether or not my assumption is true 23 as I'm reading it in my notes here. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 25 Johnson, do you yield for a question?

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, I do, Mr. 2 President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 4 Senator yields. 5 SENATOR JOHNSON: I just wanted 6 to tell you, Senator Montgomery, that we have 7 rejected, the Senate rejected restructuring 8 the Education Department and keeping the 9 cultural education programs where they are in 10 the Education Department. 11 So I didn't want you to be upset 12 about that. 13 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you. 14 I stand to be corrected, and I'm very happy. 15 Thank you, Senator Johnson. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Any 17 other Senator wish to be heard on the bill? 18 Debate is closed, then. 19 I'm sorry. Senator Little. 20 SENATOR LITTLE: Thank you, Mr. 21 President. 22 Just for a moment, I'd like to 23 speak in the affirmative on the bill. I think 24 there are so many good things in this bill 25 that we were able to do as a result of New

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 York State being in a better economic 2 condition and having some available resources 3 that we can add money to education, to 4 libraries, and to many of the proposals in 5 this. 6 But there's one thing in this bill 7 that I think is so important to families and 8 to college students. We have rejected the 9 proposal for the higher tuition increase at 10 the SUNY system, but we have established a 11 CPI. So the tuition increase this year for a 12 SUNY student would be $121. 13 But the good part about this bill 14 and this proposal is that tuition would remain 15 the same for the four years that that student 16 is attending a SUNY school. And then an 17 increase would go to next year's student on a 18 CPI, and they would have the same tuition for 19 four years. 20 I think this is a wonderful program 21 to institute, as the mother of six children, 22 having put them through school, always getting 23 that tuition increase each and every year. So 24 that this way a family can plan, knowing the 25 cost of a four-year education in advance, and

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 be able to have more children attend our SUNY 2 system. 3 But it's a very good bill, and I 4 vote in the affirmative. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Any 6 other Senator wish to be heard on the bill? 7 Debate is closed, then. 8 The Secretary will ring the bells. 9 Read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Announce 16 the results. 17 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 18 the negative on Calendar Number 277 are 19 Senators Andrews, Diaz, Dilan, Duane, 20 Gonzalez, Hassell-Thompson, Klein, L. Krueger, 21 C. Kruger, Montgomery, Onorato, Parker, 22 Paterson, Sabini, Serrano, A. Smith and 23 Stavisky. 24 Those absent from voting on 25 Calendar Number 277: Alesi, DeFrancisco,

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Larkin, Leibell and Savino. Also absent from 2 voting on Calendar Number 277, Senator 3 Schneiderman. 4 Ayes, 37. Nays, 17. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 6 is passed. 7 Senator Oppenheimer, why do you 8 rise? 9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I'd like 10 to -- I can't ask unanimous consent anymore. 11 What do I ask? I would beg your approval. 12 Under Section 9, thank you, I would 13 like -- I had not been able to be in the 14 chamber. I would like to be recorded in the 15 affirmative on Calendar Number 164, please. 16 Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 18 Oppenheimer. 19 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: With your 20 approval, I withdraw my request. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: It's 22 withdrawn. 23 Senator Farley. 24 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr. 25 President. Pursuant to Rule 9, as required, I

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 was required to be at a public hearing, 2 actually on the General Government Conference 3 Committee, and therefore I would like to cast 4 my vote on Senate Bill 120, Calendar Number 5 60. I want to vote aye. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 7 record will so reflect, Senator Farley. 8 Senator Little. 9 SENATOR LITTLE: Thank you, Mr. 10 President. Pursuant to Rule 9, I was required 11 to be at a public hearing or meeting of the 12 General Government Standing Committee or 13 conference committee and cast my votes as 14 follows for bills on the controversial 15 calendar: Senate Bill Number 120, Calendar 16 Number 60, I vote aye. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: You will 18 be so recorded, Senator Little. 19 Senator Wright. 20 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, 21 pursuant to Rule Number 9, I was required to 22 be at a meeting of the General Government 23 Conference Committee, and I am requesting to 24 cast my vote on the controversial calendar, 25 Senate 120, Calendar Number 60, and I vote

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 aye. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: You will 3 be so recorded, Senator Wright. 4 Senator Valesky. 5 SENATOR VALESKY: Mr. President, 6 I was required to be at a public meeting of 7 the Agriculture, Environment and Housing 8 Budget conference committee. I'd like to cast 9 my vote in the affirmative on Senate Bill 10 Number 120, Calendar Number 60. 11 Also pursuant to the same rule, and 12 for the same reason, on Senate Bill Number 13 553D, Calendar Number 277, on the canvass of 14 agreement, I'd like to be considered voting in 15 the affirmative as well. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: So 17 ordered. 18 Senator Trunzo. 19 SENATOR TRUNZO: Pursuant to Rule 20 9, I was required to be at a public meeting of 21 the General Government Conference Committee, 22 and therefore request that my vote be cast on 23 the controversial calendar for Bill Number 24 S120, Calendar Number 60. I vote aye. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: So

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ordered. 2 Senator Stachowski. 3 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 4 President, pursuant to Rule 9, I was required 5 to be at the meeting of the General Government 6 Conference Committee, and I would like to cast 7 my vote on the following bills from the 8 controversial calendar: Senate Bill 120, 9 Calendar 60, I vote aye. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: So 11 ordered. 12 Senator Bonacic. 13 SENATOR BONACIC: Thank you, Mr. 14 President. 15 Also pursuant to Rule 9, I was 16 required to be at a joint conference committee 17 with EnCon and Housing, and I would like to 18 cast my vote in the affirmative on Senate Bill 19 Number 120, Calendar Number 60, of the 20 controversial calendar. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: So 22 ordered. 23 SENATOR BONACIC: Thank you, Mr. 24 President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Marcellino. 2 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 3 Mr. President. Pursuant to Rule 9, I was 4 required to be at a meeting of the 5 Environmental, Housing and Agriculture Budget 6 Conference Committee and cast my vote as 7 follows: On the controversial calendar, 8 Senate Bill Number 120, Calendar Number 60, I 9 vote aye. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: So 11 ordered. 12 Senator Robach. 13 SENATOR ROBACH: Yes, Mr. 14 President. Also pursuant to Rule 9, I was at 15 the meeting of the General Government 16 Conference Committee, and I would like to 17 record my vote on the controversial calendar: 18 S120, Calendar Number 60, in the affirmative, 19 please. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: So 21 ordered. 22 The Secretary will continue to 23 read. 24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 25 278, Senate Budget Bill, Senate Print 554D, an

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 act making appropriations for the support of 2 government, HEALTH AND MENTAL HYGIENE BUDGET. 3 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: 4 Explanation. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 6 Johnson, an explanation has been requested 7 with regard to Calendar 278. 8 SENATOR JOHNSON: This is the 9 Medicaid and mental health budget. 10 We have proposed an increase, 11 fiscal year increase of $667 million for 12 Medicaid restorations, hospital restorations, 13 nursing homes, et cetera. It's a very good 14 bill. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 16 Liz Krueger. 17 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you, 18 Mr. President. If the sponsor would please 19 yield to some questions. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 21 Johnson, do you yield for a question? 22 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Mr. 23 President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 25 sponsor yields.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 2 So, Mr. Sponsor, my understanding 3 is that in the Governor's original proposed 4 budget he proposed cuts of about $1.1 billion 5 in health care funding, and that this bill is 6 putting back, so to speak, approximately 7 $600-and-something million of the cuts the 8 Governor made. 9 But when we look at the questions 10 for ourselves, since health care is so 11 complicated, it would help me to understand 12 how our dollars hold up against the Governor's 13 proposal. 14 So, for example, in the Governor's 15 budget he cuts, in state and then matching 16 federal funds, $731 million to hospitals and 17 $495 million to nursing homes, $32 million to 18 home care providers, and $340 million to other 19 health care providers. 20 In this budget bill, how are we 21 putting that back? Or what are our cuts in 22 comparison to the Governor's for hospitals, 23 nursing homes, home care providers, and then 24 other health care providers? 25 SENATOR JOHNSON: Would you

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 summarize your question so I may answer it 2 properly. 3 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Certainly. 4 In the Governor's proposed budget 5 there were actual dollar cuts to different 6 institutions for health care. We're not 7 cutting as much as the Governor, we're 8 actually restoring some of what he cut, but we 9 would still have reductions in health care. 10 So if the Governor's budget was 11 going to translate into $731 million reduced 12 to hospitals, state and federal match, what 13 would our bill do to reductions to hospitals? 14 How much would they face as a loss under our 15 bill in comparison to the Governor's bill? 16 SENATOR JOHNSON: I have some 17 very interesting figures here you may like to 18 be informed of. 19 The Governor cut, out of hospitals, 20 $395 million, and we restored $370.9 million. 21 On long-term care, the Governor cut out to 22 nursing homes $247 million; we put back 23 $240.8 million. And in home care, we restored 24 the entire thing. 25 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: I'm sorry,

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 I didn't hear that last one. 2 SENATOR JOHNSON: In home care we 3 reinstated everything that the Governor took 4 out, we put it back in. 5 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Got it. 6 Thank you, Mr. Sponsor. 7 If, through you, Mr. President, the 8 sponsor would continue to yield. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 10 Johnson, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Mr. 12 President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 14 sponsor yields. 15 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 16 And I appreciate that these are 17 complex questions, but these are big numbers. 18 And I believe the sponsor was answering the 19 state share, and the numbers I was giving were 20 combined state and federal. So I do recognize 21 the numbers you're giving me. 22 In this bill, Senator, do we 23 continue the 0.7 percent tax on hospitals that 24 the Governor had proposed, or do we not accept 25 that proposal of the Governor?

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR JOHNSON: We rejected 2 that tax. 3 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: We rejected 4 that. Thank you, that's very good to know. 5 And did we restore the benefits 6 covered under Family Health Plus that the 7 Governor had proposed? So he proposed 8 eliminating mental health, substance abuse, 9 dental and podiatry benefits. 10 SENATOR JOHNSON: We restored 11 mental health benefits and dental benefits. 12 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: But not 13 substance abuse and not podiatry? 14 SENATOR JOHNSON: Not everything, 15 yes. 16 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: And in 17 Medicaid, he also -- did we restore those 18 categorical cuts in Medicaid as well? Or just 19 in Child Health Plus -- Family Health Plus? 20 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, we did. 21 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: We restored 22 it in Medicaid? 23 SENATOR JOHNSON: That's correct. 24 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: And the 25 Governor had also proposed changing and

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 decreasing the dollar commitment to early 2 intervention services for young children. Did 3 we restore those, or do we support the 4 Governor's proposals? 5 SENATOR JOHNSON: We rejected all 6 cuts in those categories, yes. 7 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: We did. 8 All right. Maybe -- Mr. President, excuse me, 9 if, through you, the sponsor would continue to 10 yield. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 12 Johnson, do you continue to yield? 13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Mr. 14 President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 16 sponsor yields. 17 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 18 And again, it's a complex bill. 19 Maybe I should ask the opposite question. If 20 the Governor was cutting $1.1 billion and 21 we're restoring $605 million in Medicaid and 22 several other individual items, what did the 23 Governor cut that we kept? What are the big 24 cuts the Governor made that we continue to 25 have as cuts in our budget bill?

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR JOHNSON: There are quite 2 a few items, large and small, Senator, that we 3 have not eliminated which the Governor had 4 proposed. 5 As far as the managed care 6 premiums, Medicaid premiums, Medicare 7 premiums -- well, Medicaid, yes, we picked up 8 $75 million in additional drug rebates, 9 $40 million in fraud savings -- fraud, crime, 10 finagling, okay -- and various other smaller 11 items. 12 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 13 Mr. President, if, through you, the 14 sponsor would yield. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 16 Johnson, do you yield? 17 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Mr. 18 President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 20 sponsor yields. 21 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 22 Within this bill -- or perhaps it's 23 the language bill, but it all ties together -- 24 there's some concern about what we are doing 25 in relationship to the bad debt/charity care

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 bill. The Governor had proposed reforming it 2 within HCRA reauthorization, which I believe 3 we're covering HCRA in this budget bill as 4 well. 5 Are you familiar with the different 6 proposals for the bad debt/charity care issue? 7 SENATOR JOHNSON: We have not 8 affected that in any way. We have not cut 9 that in any way. 10 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: So you have 11 kept with the Executive's proposal on bad debt 12 and charity? 13 SENATOR JOHNSON: No, we rejected 14 the Governor's proposed changes. 15 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: You have 16 rejected the Governor's proposed changes. 17 SENATOR JOHNSON: That's correct. 18 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Mr. 19 President, if, through you, the sponsor would 20 continue to yield. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 22 Johnson, do you continue to yield? 23 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 25 sponsor yields.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: So again, 2 with bad debt, with charity, it's complicated 3 but affects uninsured patients who are covered 4 who are in hospitals and they receive care, 5 and then there's a question of what the 6 policies of the hospitals are in, in fact, 7 attempting to get the money in some way 8 through the patient, as opposed to drawing 9 down from the bad debt and charity pool. 10 So just again to reassure myself on 11 this, since it's an important issue for me, 12 under the plan that the Senate has proposed, 13 either in this budget bill, 554D, or in the 14 matching language bill, are we supporting that 15 general hospitals serving indigent patients 16 would be required to have actual financial aid 17 policies and procedures for reducing charges 18 to low-income individuals who don't have 19 health insurance and for reducing or 20 discounting the collection of copays and 21 deductible payments from individuals who 22 cannot afford to pay such amounts? 23 If Senator Hannon would like to 24 answer, as the Health Committee chairman, 25 that's fine.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR JOHNSON: The chairman of 2 the Health Committee in the Senate would like 3 to respond to that question. 4 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Great, 5 thank you. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 7 Hannon. 8 SENATOR HANNON: Mr. President, 9 could I ask that the question be repeated. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 11 Krueger, Senator Hannon is asking you to 12 rephrase the question succinctly. 13 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Certainly. 14 It's my understanding that there's 15 various proposals for clarifying the rules 16 around bad debt and charity care and that in 17 fact there is a proposal that would require 18 general hospitals to have financial aid 19 policies and procedures in place for reducing 20 charges to low-income individuals without 21 health insurance and for reducing or 22 discounting the collection of copays and 23 deductible payments from individuals who 24 cannot afford to pay such amounts. 25 This has been a proposal within the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 budget. I was wondering whether this bill or 2 the matching language bill accepts that 3 language and that concept or does not. 4 SENATOR HANNON: To respond fully 5 to your question requires me to really say 6 that the question combines two concepts that 7 ought not to be combined. 8 First, it combines the concept of 9 bad debt and charity care, which is something 10 that's been embodied in our hospital financing 11 system for a couple of decades. 12 And it combines an initiative of 13 the hospitals themselves, which they initiated 14 on their own to comply with the federal 15 Hill-Burton mandate that the poor be served. 16 You cannot mix those two. They are 17 separate and apart. 18 What this bill does is continue the 19 bad debt and charity care as it has been. We 20 do not accept the recommendation of the 21 Executive that we give the ability to the 22 commissioner to make changes in the bad debt 23 and charity care in an undetermined way. So 24 we reject that, and we leave the existing 25 language.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 The new initiative which was added 2 by the Executive was to in some way ratify 3 this initiative by the hospitals. But because 4 that initiative was not done on a uniform 5 basis, but within several bands of poverty 6 range and geographic impact, we have thought 7 it would be premature to embody that in 8 statute. It is also the subject of many 9 federal court actions, some applicable to 10 hospitals here, some not. So it would be 11 premature, so we do not accept that language. 12 But to go back to it, the bad debt 13 and charity care, as it has been, continues. 14 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you 15 for the clarification, Mr. President. 16 On the bill. Oh, excuse me. I 17 have -- excuse me, Mr. President. I lost 18 track of my assignment. 19 I believe that there is an 20 amendment at the desk, and I'd like to ask 21 that reading of the amendment be waived and to 22 be heard on the amendment. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Your 24 amendment is at the desk. The reading is 25 waived, and you're recognized to explain the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 amendment. 2 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you 3 very much, Mr. President. 4 I'm proposing that we amend this 5 health care bill. And while I didn't speak on 6 the bill yet, I have serious doubts about 7 voting against this bill because, by and 8 large, while we haven't addressed the 9 fundamental questions of health care, we've 10 actually done a better job than the Governor 11 when it comes to health care budgeting. 12 But I believe that in combining our 13 goals to improve access to health care, to 14 cover health care, to expand the potential for 15 research into -- lifesaving research in the 16 State of New York, that we should in fact 17 commit ourselves to funding stem cell 18 research, an extraordinarily promising source 19 of scientific research and biotechnology 20 development that in fact could save millions 21 of Americans who are suffering from crippling 22 economic and psychological burdens of 23 degenerative chronic and acute diseases, 24 including diabetes, Parkinson's, cancer, and 25 other illnesses.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 And that in fact there has been a 2 good deal of discussion about stem cell 3 research and the potential for its expanded 4 uses in all types of health care delivery over 5 the last year or two. And the fact is that 6 the State of New York seems to be prepared to 7 spend large amounts of money in less defined 8 categories of high-tech research and 9 bioresearch development. We went over some of 10 those yesterday, where we have large pots of 11 money that we're not exactly explaining how we 12 propose to spend them. 13 But we're proposing an amendment to 14 this bill that would use a hundred million 15 dollars for a stem cell research initiative, 16 which would be included in a 10-year, 17 $1 billion funding stream, which would mostly 18 come from revenues from the sale of general 19 obligation bonds. I do believe, though, this 20 doesn't have to be fully new money, but rather 21 could substitute for any number of the less 22 defined research and development and 23 technology funding streams that we discussed 24 during this budget debate yesterday. 25 That New York State is in fact

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 losing our best researchers, who are moving or 2 planning on moving to other states because 3 they are investing in this type of research. 4 That we've got the cluster capacity 5 in our health care institutions and our 6 universities to expand the programs that we're 7 running to take advantage of our vast 8 intellectual capital and to attract rather 9 than lose leading scientists in New York. 10 And as I said, we have the 11 potential to save perhaps countless numbers of 12 lives over the next several decades and reduce 13 the cost of health care for ourselves and 14 others by moving forward with stem cell 15 research. 16 And so our amendment today is in 17 fact to provide a funding stream for stem cell 18 research. And I actually have a companion 19 bill, which is not the amendment today, that 20 would explain how we would authorize and limit 21 and define the use of stem cell research in 22 the State of New York, so I refer my 23 colleagues also to Senate Bill 433. 24 Thank you, Mr. President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Diaz. 2 SENATOR DIAZ: Thank you, Mr. 3 President. On the amendment. 4 Ladies and gentlemen, it seems that 5 nowadays everyone is rushing to put together a 6 stem cell research program. There are those 7 that have called it the new California gold 8 rush. 9 Last November, the people of 10 California voted and approved Proposition 71. 11 This is an initiative to obtain $3 billion in 12 funding over ten years for embryonic stem cell 13 research. This program will give out 14 $300 million every year for the financing of 15 stem cell research. 16 Many people have recognized and 17 realized that this field of study has 18 incredible potential for an economic tool. In 19 other words, there is a lot of money to be 20 made and a lot of people trying to get it. 21 Now, here in New York State, we 22 have suddenly opened our eyes, and we don't 23 want to be left behind and out of a pot of 24 money from the project -- from the projected 25 gold mine of stem cell research.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Some of the reasons that people are 2 giving here in New York are the following. 3 New York cannot stand to lose ground in the 4 competition for some of the most valuable 5 resources. Another one: We need to develop a 6 strong stem cell research program in order for 7 New York not to only maintain its current 8 status with the medical profession, but also 9 to begin to attract top doctors. 10 Another one, state funding for 11 developing of stem cell research will nourish 12 New York's vast intellectual capital and 13 attract leading scientists to New York State. 14 Ladies and gentlemen, to make 15 matters worse, and to be sure that we get into 16 this gold mine, there are those arguing for 17 and in favor of the embryonic stem cell 18 research who have embarked on a campaign of 19 misinformation, claiming that there are 20 scientific reasons to believe that this 21 research will lead to a cure for Alzheimer's 22 disease. Nothing is further from the truth. 23 But, as some people say, people always need a 24 fairy tale. 25 The truth of the matter is that

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 scientists have allowed society to believe 2 that stem cells will effectively cure 3 Alzheimer's disease. Researchers have 4 apparently known for some time that the 5 embryonic stem cell will not -- and I repeat, 6 will not -- be an effective treatment for 7 Alzheimer's disease. During one of the United 8 States' [sic] subcommittee hearings this past 9 month of May, two researchers testified that 10 Alzheimer's disease is a whole brain disease 11 and not a cellular disorder such as 12 Parkinson's. 13 This opinion has been kept out of 14 the news, but now the Washington Post 15 correspondent Mr. Rich Weiss has blown out the 16 leak of a scam. He has written an article 17 stating that Alzheimer's disease is the least 18 likely to benefit from the stem cell research. 19 Ladies and gentlemen, embryonic 20 stem cell research is another and more 21 sophisticated way for the continued killing of 22 unborn babies in America. I oppose the direct 23 destruction of innocent human life for any 24 purpose, including research. 25 As I said before, embryonic

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 research is simply another form of abortion in 2 America. What is an abortion? Abortion is 3 the termination of a pregnancy and the killing 4 or the destruction of an embryo or a fetus. 5 Before January 22, 1973, a day of infamy in 6 American history, abortion was illegal in most 7 states and in most states were only performed 8 for extreme circumstances. 9 In 1970, ladies and gentlemen, Sara 10 Weddington, a young lawyer from Texas, filed a 11 class action lawsuit and behalf of a pregnant 12 woman named Norma McCorvey. Ms. McCorvey not 13 use her real name, she used an alias, Jane 14 Roe. The purpose of this lawsuit was to 15 overturn the State of Texas' antiabortion 16 laws. The lawsuit charged that the laws were 17 unconstitutional, that they violated a woman's 18 rights under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th and 14th 19 Amendments of the United States Constitution. 20 Dallas district attorney Henry Wade was the 21 defendant in the case. Jane Roe against Henry 22 Wade. Therefore, the case is known as Roe 23 versus Wade. 24 Since that day of infamy, 25 January 22, 1973, every year there are

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 approximately 1.5 million abortions in 2 America. In 32 years, at the rate of 4,000 3 abortions each day, we have killed and 4 slaughtered 48 million unborn citizens. 5 Ladies and gentlemen, abortion is 6 the American Holocaust. I want to compare 7 Adolf Hitler and the Holocaust to what happens 8 here in America. The comparison is plain and 9 simple. Six million Jews were exterminated by 10 Hitler in Germany. Abortion here in New York 11 [sic] has killed almost 48 million babies. We 12 simply have been in the killing for a longer 13 period of time than Adolf Hitler. 14 Hitler believed that Jews were not 15 human beings. In America, abortionists 16 believe that a fetus and an embryo are not 17 life. Hitler killed Jews in masses. America 18 is killing babies at the rate of 4,000 per 19 day. Hitler used ashes, used the ashes of the 20 Jew to make bars of soap. In America, we are 21 selling human tissues to be used in the 22 manufacture of cosmetics as well as for 23 medical research. 24 What is the difference? Do not 25 point the finger at Hitler. We are worse. Do

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 not look at Joseph Mengele medically 2 experimenting on the Jewish children and say 3 that you are shocked. Our abortion clinics 4 are doing worse and more extreme things than 5 that. 6 Ladies and gentlemen, why am I 7 opposed to stem cell research using the 8 embryo? Simply because there are other ways 9 to do stem cell research without using 10 embryonic cells. For example, there is stem 11 cell research using adult tissues, blood from 12 the umbilical cord and other sources such as 13 bone marrow, blood, muscle, fat, nerves and 14 even the pulp of the baby teeth. 15 Today adult stem cell research has 16 been used to help people with Parkinson's 17 disease, spinal cord injuries, sickle cell 18 anemia, heart disease, corneal damages and 19 dozens of other conditions. 20 Ladies and gentlemen, there has to 21 be a fundamental commitment to protect and 22 preserve the value and sanctity of human life. 23 We are crossing a fundamental moral line by 24 supporting, promoting and providing taxpayer 25 funding to encourage the further destruction

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 of human embryos. That is simply the killing 2 of innocent human life. 3 Here in America we like to be 4 politically correct, so we just don't call it 5 abortion, we call it pro-choice. Well, let me 6 tell you something, to all of you that would 7 like to listen. Hitler was pro-choice. He 8 chose the Jews -- he chose to send the Jews to 9 Auschwitz. That was not Jewish choice, that 10 was Hitler's choice. Murderers and assassins 11 and criminals are pro-choice. They choose to 12 put a gun to your face and blow your head off. 13 That is not your choice, that is the 14 criminal's choice. 15 The baby in a womb of a woman don't 16 choose the saline solution that will burn his 17 skin away, nor will he choose the forceps that 18 will crack his little head off. That is not 19 his choice, that is your choice. 20 Finally, ladies and gentlemen, one 21 of the goals of embryonic stem cell research 22 is to be able to clone, create or manufacture 23 another human life in a laboratory with the 24 sole purpose of killing him or her to be able 25 to use their parts for experiments. This,

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ladies and gentlemen, is the ultimate 2 degradation of a fellow human life. 3 Therefore, Mr. President, I am 4 voting no in this issue, in this amendment, 5 and ask my fellow Senators to join me in 6 stopping this madness, this gold rush, this 7 disrespect for human life. Ladies and 8 gentlemen, stem cell research is the 9 reincarnation of Dr. Joseph Mengele's 10 experiments, this time on the unborn, the 11 innocent, and the defenseless human beings. 12 Thank you, Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: On the 14 amendment, those Senators in agreement please 15 signify by raising your hand. 16 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 17 agreement are Senators Andrews, Breslin, 18 Brown, Dilan, Duane, Gonzalez, 19 Hassell-Thompson, Klein, L. Krueger, 20 C. Kruger, Montgomery, Oppenheimer, Paterson, 21 Sabini, Sampson, Serrano, A. Smith, M. Smith, 22 Stavisky and Valesky. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 24 amendment is not agreed to. 25 Does any other Senator wish to be

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 heard on this bill? 2 Debate is closed, then. 3 Ring the bells. 4 Read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the 8 roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Announce 11 the results. 12 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 13 the negative on Calendar Number 278 are 14 Senators Andrews, Dilan, Duane, L. Krueger, 15 Parker, Paterson and Serrano. 16 Those absent from voting on 17 Calendar Number 278 are Senators Alesi, 18 DeFrancisco, Larkin, Leibell, Savino, 19 Schneiderman and Volker. 20 Ayes, 46. Nays, 7. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 22 is passed. 23 The Secretary will continue to 24 read. 25 THE SECRETARY: In relation to

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Calendar Number 278, Senator Hassell-Thompson 2 voting in the negative. 3 Ayes, 45. Nays, 8. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 5 is passed. 6 The Secretary will continue to 7 read. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 279, Senate Budget Bill, Senate Print 990B, an 10 act to amend the Penal Law and others. 11 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Explanation. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 13 Johnson, an explanation has been requested 14 with regard to Calendar 279. 15 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 16 this is the Article VII or language bill on 17 public protection and general government, 18 which is the language bill for S550D, which 19 was passed yesterday. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Any 21 other Senator wish to be heard on the bill? 22 Debate is closed, then. 23 The Secretary will sound the bells. 24 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Mr. 25 President.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 2 Montgomery. 3 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: We 4 appreciate that thorough explanation from 5 Senator Johnson. We are satisfied. 6 (Laughter.) 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Thank 8 you. 9 Read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the 13 roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Announce 16 the results. 17 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 18 the negative on Calendar Number 279 are 19 Senators Montgomery, Parker, Paterson, 20 A. Smith and Stavisky. 21 Those absent from voting on 22 Calendar Number 279 are Senators Alesi, 23 Balboni, DeFrancisco, Larkin, Leibell, Savino, 24 Schneiderman and Volker. 25 Ayes, 47. Nays, 5.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 2 is passed. 3 The Secretary will continue to 4 read. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 280, Senate Budget Bill, Senate Print 991B, an 7 act to amend the Public Authorities Law and 8 others. 9 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Explanation. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 11 Johnson, an explanation has been requested 12 with regard to Calendar 280. 13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 14 this is the Article VII or language bill which 15 implements the provisions of S553D, which we 16 passed a short while ago. 17 Thank you. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 19 Oppenheimer. 20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I would 21 like to propose an amendment. I believe it's 22 at the desk. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Do you 24 waive the reading of the amendment? 25 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Yes.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Okay. 2 Your amendment is at the desk, the reading is 3 waived, and you're recognized to explain your 4 amendment. 5 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you 6 very much, Mr. President. 7 This amendment would provide for a 8 $10 billion capital construction program for 9 school districts and libraries, both inside 10 and outside of New York City, to address the 11 CFE decision. 12 In February of this year, State 13 Supreme Court Justice Leland DeGrasse affirmed 14 the recommendations of the panel of judicial 15 referees and ordered the Governor and the 16 Legislature to provide New York City schools 17 with $9.2 billion for school facilities 18 construction. This order only applies to 19 New York City. But many of us, I know, in 20 this house, we had high hopes that the state 21 would recognize the need for the overhaul of 22 the whole school financing system and provide 23 needed resources to school districts 24 throughout the state. However, as we all 25 know, this didn't happen.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 This amendment would provide enough 2 funds to address the capital construction 3 needs for school districts around our state. 4 All school districts would qualify for 5 participation, though funding is targeted at 6 districts that have the highest need. 7 Also, this proposal would not 8 affect the financial plan for this fiscal 9 year, our state fiscal year, as this is a 10 capital plan, capital spending, and no debt 11 service payments would be due until the 12 following year, 2006-2007. 13 Also, this amendment would address 14 financial inequities which in the past 15 prevented school districts from providing a 16 sound basic education. There will be no match 17 required for the lowest-wealth school 18 districts in their capital plans. For others, 19 there will be a match required. However, the 20 state share will be more than the current 21 building aid ratio is currently in our state. 22 In order for New York State 23 students to have a meaningful high school 24 education and a lower school education, K 25 through 8, we have to provide the adequate

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 physical facilities and classrooms for 2 students and teachers. This initiative 3 intends to create an environment that is 4 conducive to learning by providing much-needed 5 resources directed towards reducing class size 6 through capital construction and 7 rehabilitation of school and library 8 facilities. 9 We all have heard many horror 10 stories of overcrowding in schools and classes 11 being held in hallways and even in closets, 12 and I once heard in even a bathroom. 13 So I think the need is evident that 14 we have to do something in the way of capital 15 construction, because we can't be teaching our 16 children in inadequate rooms and in inadequate 17 facilities. We have to do new construction, 18 and this amendment would advance that. 19 Thank you. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: On the 21 amendment, those Senators in agreement please 22 signify by raising your hand. 23 Announce the results. 24 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 25 agreement are Senators Andrews, Breslin,

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Brown, Diaz, Dilan, Gonzalez, 2 Hassell-Thompson, Klein, L. Krueger, 3 C. Kruger, Montgomery, Onorato, Oppenheimer, 4 Parker, Paterson, Sabini, Sampson, Savino, 5 Schneiderman, Serrano, A. Smith, M. Smith, 6 Stachowski and Stavisky. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The 8 amendment is not agreed to. 9 Any other Senator wish to be heard 10 on the bill? 11 Debate is closed. 12 Ring the bells. 13 Read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the 17 roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll.) 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Announce 20 the results. 21 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 22 the negative on Calendar Number 280 are 23 Senators Andrews, Diaz, Gonzalez, 24 Hassell-Thompson, L. Krueger, Parker, 25 Paterson, Sabini, Savino, Serrano and

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 A. Smith. Also Senator Stavisky. 2 Those Senators absent from voting 3 on Calendar Number 280: Senators Balboni, 4 DeFrancisco, Duane, Nozzolio and Volker. 5 Ayes, 43. Nays, 12. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 7 is passed. 8 The Secretary will continue to 9 read. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 281, Senate -- 12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 13 Krueger, why do you rise? 14 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: I'm sorry. 15 I'd been rising waiting to explain my vote. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill 17 is passed, Senator. 18 The Secretary will continue to 19 read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 281, Senate Budget Bill, Senate Print 992B, an 22 act to amend the Public Health Law and others. 23 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: 24 Explanation. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Johnson, an explanation has been requested 2 with regard to Calendar 281. 3 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President, 4 this is the Article VII or language bill 5 accompanying Senate 554D, the health and 6 mental hygiene bill, which was passed a short 7 time ago. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Any 9 other Senator wish to be heard on the bill? 10 Debate is closed. 11 Sound the bells. 12 Read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the 16 roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 19 Breslin, to explain his vote. 20 SENATOR BRESLIN: Thank you, Mr. 21 President. 22 On each of these budget bills I 23 have voted in the affirmative, and I applaud 24 the Senate and the Assembly for taking 25 enormous steps in the past several days.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 But I'd like to point out that 2 although I am voting for this bill, I have 3 some serious reservations on the Medicaid cap. 4 I really don't think it should be referred to 5 as a Medicaid cap, and we can do better. 6 You know, when counties come to us 7 and they're suffering and we see counties that 8 have a high elderly population and a density 9 at nursing homes, and we have other poor 10 counties who can't handle the Medicaid, this 11 doesn't take into consideration various 12 factors. 13 And it seems to me it isn't the 14 kind of change that we need in Medicaid. It's 15 a small, small start that I think will be 16 unfair to many of the counties throughout the 17 State of New York. 18 Thank you, Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 20 Breslin, how do you vote? 21 SENATOR BRESLIN: In the 22 affirmative. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 24 Breslin will be recorded in the affirmative. 25 Senator Schneiderman, to explain

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 his vote. 2 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you, 3 Mr. President. 4 In addition to the very serious 5 issues Senator Breslin just addressed, there 6 are some other problems with this legislation 7 that I think are, in the long run, potentially 8 very serious. 9 We do not fully restore the 10 Governor's additions of copays. We do not 11 restore some critical services such as dental 12 services. And I'm afraid we are on the edge 13 of a catastrophic two-tier system of medical 14 care in this state in which all but the most 15 wealthy New Yorkers are on a downhill spiral 16 of reduced benefits, increased copays -- and 17 that is not acceptable. 18 We could save money in this state 19 by simply providing universal single-payer 20 health care under a state plan to everyone in 21 the state. It would make us more competitive. 22 I don't believe we're moving in the right 23 direction. 24 I realize that the major opposition 25 in this area comes from the Governor, and the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Senate has made extraordinary efforts to 2 restore cuts that the Governor first proposed. 3 But I do think we have to take a 4 more long-term view of this. This is not an 5 issue that's going to go away. It's not going 6 to go away with this sort of an approach. And 7 we're going to have to come back with a more 8 comprehensive treatment of it, I hope, before 9 the session is out. 10 I will be voting in the affirmative 11 also, Mr. President, but with those serious, 12 serious concerns. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 14 Schneiderman will be recorded in the 15 affirmative. 16 Announce the results. 17 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 18 the negative on Calendar Number 281 are 19 Senators Andrews, L. Krueger, Parker and 20 Paterson. 21 Those Senators absent from voting 22 on Calendar Number 281: Balboni, DeFrancisco, 23 Duane, Nozzolio and Volker. 24 Ayes, 51. Nays, 4. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 is passed. 2 Senator Skelos, that completes the 3 controversial reading of the calendar. 4 Senator Skelos. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 6 would you please recognize Senator Savino. I 7 think you have a motion to make. No? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator 9 Savino. 10 SENATOR SAVINO: Mr. President, 11 pursuant to Rule 9, I was required to be at a 12 public hearing of the Economic Development and 13 Taxation Budget Conference Committee, and I'd 14 like to cast my votes as follows for the bills 15 that were on the controversial calendar: 16 Senate 553D, Calendar Number 277, 17 in the negative; 18 Senate 554D, Calendar 278, in the 19 negative; 20 Senate 990B, Calendar 279, in the 21 negative. 22 And in addition, as I was required 23 to be at that meeting, I was forced to miss 24 the canvass of agreement on the following 25 bills, so I'd like to cast my canvass of

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 agreement as follows: For Senate 554D, 2 Calendar Number 278, in the affirmative. 3 Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: So 5 ordered. 6 Senator Larkin. 7 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, 8 pursuant to Rule 9, I was required to be at a 9 meeting of the Economic Development Conference 10 Committee and cast my votes as follows for the 11 bills on the controversial calendar: 12 553D, Calendar 277, yes; 13 554D, Calendar 278, yes; 14 Senate Bill 990B, Calendar 279, 15 yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: So 17 ordered. 18 Senator Alesi. 19 SENATOR ALESI: Thank you, Mr. 20 President. 21 Pursuant to Rule 9, I was required 22 to be at the public meeting of the Economic 23 Development Conference Committee and would 24 like to cast my votes as follows on the bills 25 on the controversial calendar:

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Senate Bill 553D, Calendar Number 2 277, I vote yes. 3 Senate Bill 554D, Calendar 278, I 4 vote yes. 5 Senate Bill 990B, Calendar Number 6 279, I vote yes. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: So 8 ordered. 9 Senator Leibell. 10 SENATOR LEIBELL: Mr. President, 11 pursuant to Rule 9, I was required to be at a 12 public hearing or meeting of the Economic 13 Development Conference Committee and cast my 14 votes as follows for bills on the 15 controversial calendar: 16 553D, Calendar 277, aye; 17 554D, Calendar 278, aye; 18 990B, Calendar Number 279, aye. 19 Thank you, Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: So 21 ordered. 22 Senator Schneiderman. 23 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you, 24 Mr. President. 25 Remarkably, I have the same problem

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 pursuant to Rule 9, and I was also at the 2 public hearing of the Economic Development and 3 Taxation Budget Conference Committee. I would 4 like to cast my votes as follows for the bills 5 on the controversial calendar: 6 Senate 553D, no; 7 Senate 554D, no; 8 And Senate 990B, no. 9 I would also like to cast my vote 10 on the canvass of agreement that was raised in 11 Senate Bill 554D, Calendar 278, in the 12 affirmative. 13 Thank you. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: So 15 ordered. 16 Senator Schneiderman. 17 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Yes, and 18 in addition, Senator Duane is scheduled to 19 speak on a mention to petition a bill out of 20 committee today. He is now at the Public 21 Protection Budget Conference Committee and 22 unable to be here to do so. So I would like 23 to request unanimous consent to adjourn his 24 motion to petition and allow him to do so 25 tomorrow.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Without 2 objection. 3 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you, 4 Mr. President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: That 6 will be so ordered for tomorrow. 7 Senator Skelos. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 9 is there any housekeeping at the desk? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: No 11 further business, Senator Skelos. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: I just would 13 like to point out session will be at 11:30 14 tomorrow. But prior to that, at 10:00 a.m., 15 the Human Services/Labor Conference Committee 16 will be meeting in Hearing Room C of the LOB, 17 Mental Hygiene, Hearing Room A of the LOB, and 18 Transportation will be in Hearing Room B of 19 the LOB. 20 There being no further business to 21 come before the Senate, I move we stand 22 adjourned until Wednesday, March 16th, at 23 11:30 a.m. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: On 25 motion, the Senate stands adjourned until

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Wednesday, March 16th, at 11:30 a.m. 2 (Whereupon, at 4:20 p.m., the 3 Senate adjourned.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910