Tuesday, January 31, 2006

1 NEW YORK STATE SENATE 2 3 4 THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 January 31, 2006 11 11:02 a.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 LT. GOVERNOR MARY O. DONOHUE, President 19 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary 20 21 22 23 24 25

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: The 3 Senate will come to order. 4 I ask everyone present to please 5 rise and repeat with me the Pledge of 6 Allegiance. 7 (Whereupon, the assemblage recited 8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 9 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: The 10 invocation today will be given by the Reverend 11 Charles J. Roof, Jr., Pastor of Calvary 12 Baptist Church in Albany. 13 Reverend Roof. 14 REVEREND ROOF: Let us pray. 15 Holy God and Heavenly Father, we 16 thank You for another day of grace. 17 We thank You for this beautiful 18 place called New York State, and we thank You 19 for the privilege of calling it home. 20 We thank You for these ladies and 21 gentlemen that You've called to public service 22 to minister to our needs. We ask for Your 23 help upon this session today. We ask that 24 You'll give each one here wisdom in 25 decision-making. And, Father, we pray for a

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 productive year in the New York State 2 Legislature. 3 We do pray, Father, for the family 4 members of Coretta Scott King today, and we 5 ask that You would comfort them during this 6 time of loss. 7 We pray for New York's sons and 8 daughters today who are fighting the battles 9 in Iraq and Afghanistan and serving overseas 10 around the world. We ask for success. We ask 11 for safety of each one. We ask, Father, that 12 You would comfort those families who've lost 13 loved ones in this war against terror. 14 And we just ask, Father, that You 15 would meet the needs of those around our 16 state, other needs that are represented. We 17 pray for those who are sick and hurting today, 18 that You'd minister to their needs. We pray 19 for those who are having a difficult year with 20 finances, with increased utility costs. And 21 we just pray You'll continue to meet needs and 22 guide and direct each one. 23 We thank You for the privilege of 24 serving You today. Be glorified in all that 25 is done, we ask in Jesus' holy name.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Amen. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 3 you. 4 Reading of the Journal. 5 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 6 Monday, January 30, the Senate met pursuant to 7 adjournment. The Journal of Saturday, 8 January 28, was read and approved. On motion, 9 Senate adjourned. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Without 11 objection, the Journal stands approved as 12 read. 13 Presentation of petitions. 14 Messages from the Assembly. 15 Messages from the Governor. 16 Reports of standing committees. 17 Reports of select committees. 18 Communications and reports from 19 state officers. 20 Motions and resolutions. 21 Senator Bruno. 22 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 23 myself, with Senator Breslin, have a 24 privileged resolution at the desk. I would 25 ask that it be read in its entirety and move

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 for its immediate adoption. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: The 3 Secretary will read. 4 THE SECRETARY: By Senators Bruno 5 and Breslin, Legislative Resolution Number 6 3373, celebrating the life and accomplishments 7 of Morris "Marty" Silverman, noted 8 philanthropist and distinguished citizen. 9 "WHEREAS, It is the custom of this 10 Legislative Body to honor the life and 11 accomplishments of citizens of the State of 12 New York whose enduring gifts to the community 13 and state will long be cherished; and 14 "WHEREAS, It is with deepest regret 15 and sincerest sorrow that this Legislative 16 Body records the passing of Morris 'Marty' 17 Silverman, a noted philanthropist who donated 18 millions of dollars to causes in the Albany 19 area and beyond, and established the nation's 20 richest prize for medical research; and 21 "WHEREAS, Morris Silverman, 22 affectionately known as 'Marty,' died in 23 Manhattan on Thursday, January 26, 2006, at 24 the age of 93; and 25 "WHEREAS, Born in 1912 to Polish

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 immigrants, Morris Silverman grew up in Troy, 2 New York, in a wood-frame house across the 3 Hudson River from Albany, with his two 4 sisters. After graduating from Troy High in 5 1930, he attended New York University and 6 later Albany Law School, managing the Standard 7 Oil gas station, located in South Troy, to 8 help pay for tuition; and 9 "WHEREAS, After graduating from 10 Albany Law School in 1936, Morris Silverman 11 worked briefed with the Legal Aid Society in 12 Albany, then moved to New York City with his 13 wife, the late Dorothy, to become a 14 businessman; and 15 "WHEREAS, Morris Silverman bravely 16 served his country during World War II, 17 retiring as a major. He was decorated with 18 two Purple Hearts, two Bronze Stars, a Silver 19 Star, four Battle Stars, and a Combat Infantry 20 Badge, and he served as a lawyer to assist in 21 the prosecution of Nazi war criminals; and 22 "WHEREAS, Morris Silverman built 23 his fortune after returning home after World 24 War II, starting what would become the largest 25 family-owned leasing company in the country.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 He later founded National Equipment Rental, 2 which he sold in 1984, using the proceeds to 3 establish the Marty and Dorothy Silverman 4 Foundation; and 5 "WHEREAS, Many institutions and 6 agencies, locally and nationally, benefited 7 from his philanthropy, including Albany Law 8 School, Albany Medical Center, the Sage 9 Colleges, the Jewish chapel at the United 10 States Military Academy at West Point, the 11 Holocaust Museum in Houston, and children's 12 literacy programs. Furthermore, the New York 13 State Military Museum and Veterans Research 14 Center in Saratoga Springs, New York, was 15 established with his generous support; and 16 "WHEREAS, Morris Silverman's vision 17 of Albany as an international center for law, 18 medicine, and higher education led to the 19 formation of University Heights Association, a 20 unique consortium of four neighboring 21 institutions -- Albany Law School, Albany 22 College of Pharmacy, Albany Medical Center, 23 and the Sage Colleges; and 24 "WHEREAS, Morris Silverman's vision 25 and determination led to the purchase of the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 New Scotland Avenue Armory, a key step in 2 realizing the goal of University Heights; and 3 "WHEREAS, In 2000, Morris Silverman 4 pledge $50 million to create the Albany 5 Medical Center Prize in Medicine and 6 Biomedical Research to be disbursed over the 7 next century in annual awards worth $500,000. 8 The largest medical research award in the 9 United States, it is second in the world, only 10 behind Sweden's $1.3 million Nobel Prize; and 11 "WHEREAS, Giving back and pulling 12 oneself up were constant themes in Morris 13 Silverman's life. He and his wife wrote a 14 note to their three children in 1980 extolling 15 the virtues of both: 'Remember, if you ever 16 need a helping hand, you'll find one at the 17 end of your arm. As you grow older you will 18 discover that you have two hands, one for 19 helping yourself, the other for helping 20 others'; and 21 "WHEREAS, The sincere condolences 22 of this Legislative Body are offered in great 23 respect and honor to Morris Silverman's 24 family. He is survived by his son, Lorin; his 25 daughter-in-law, Patty; two daughters, Carol

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 and Joan; nine grandchildren -- Marc, Ama, 2 Fae, Garey, Jeremy, Marna, David, Allison, and 3 Seth -- and one great-granddaughter, Abigail; 4 and 5 "WHEREAS, Armed with a humanistic 6 spirit, imbued with a sense of compassion, and 7 comforted by a loving family, Morris Silverman 8 leaves behind a legacy which will long endure 9 the passage of time and will remain as a 10 comforting memory to all he served and 11 befriended; now, therefore, be it 12 "RESOLVED, That this Legislative 13 Body pause in its deliberations in a moment of 14 silent tribute to Morris Silverman, whose 15 unselfish concern for the welfare of others 16 enhanced the lives of so many; and be it 17 further 18 "RESOLVED, That a copy of this 19 resolution, suitably engrossed, be transmitted 20 to the family of Morris Silverman." 21 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno. 22 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you, Madam 23 President and colleagues. 24 I'm glad to see so many young 25 people here in the chamber -- who are

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 themselves champions that will be recognized 2 later -- because when we celebrate Marty 3 Silverman's life, we celebrate an individual 4 who spent 93 years here on this earth and now, 5 this weekend, went to another place. But 6 Marty Silverman and the good things that he 7 has left behind will go on affecting people's 8 lives for generations. 9 Now, think about an individual who 10 was born in Troy, New York -- born in Troy, 11 New York, very humble beginnings, grew up 12 unsatisfied with where he was in life, worked 13 his way through college, through law school, 14 and saw an opportunity. 15 Here's a poor kid struggling and 16 working. And he told me this story himself, 17 that he saw an ad for a couple of used cars. 18 You want to talk about opportunity? And he 19 bought those used cars, and he sold them 20 within a week and I believe like doubled his 21 money. He thought: Hey, this is the way to 22 go, this is better than practicing law. See 23 how smart he was? 24 (Laughter.) 25 SENATOR BRUNO: He went on to

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 build one of the largest leasing companies in 2 the United States. That's why he could give 3 away $50 million, building through the 4 Renaissance Corp. that John Egan, who was a 5 close friend of Marty's -- and John is here, 6 and John himself has dedicated much of his 7 life to public service. But he has 8 implemented the University Heights program to 9 improve the quality of life for people. 10 Marty always had a smile on his 11 face. He was around here last year at age 92. 12 He had more energy than most people here put 13 together. And wherever Marty went, he handed 14 out this, a real two-dollar bill. He gave me 15 a stack of them. I wish he had given me a 16 million of them, but he didn't. 17 But on the back of this two-dollar 18 bill it says: "If it is to be, it is up to 19 me." Just think about that as you go on to 20 your life. If it is to be, it is up to me. 21 So I want to thank Marty -- his 22 children, grandchildren, great- grandchildren, 23 John, for being such a supporter -- for the 24 legacy that he leaves, for sharing his wealth, 25 for caring enough about you and about me and

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 about everybody here in New York State and in 2 the Northeast with all of the good works that 3 he has left behind. 4 Thank you, Madam President. 5 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, 6 Senator Bruno. 7 I also want to make remarks just 8 briefly about my friend Morris Silverman. One 9 of Marty's greatest tributes I think is the 10 selection of John Egan to head Renaissance 11 Corp. John, you really exemplify a lot of 12 what we all loved and respected about Marty. 13 I have to say candidly, though, 14 that his wit was tremendous, wisdom was 15 excellent, his drive was unequaled. But all 16 of those stellar qualities were exceeded by 17 the size of Marty's heart. I never met anyone 18 who had achieved so much and yet retained so 19 much humility. 20 My hometown is Troy, New York, and 21 his hometown will always remember Marty, first 22 of all with affection, secondly with respect, 23 and mostly with deep appreciation for all that 24 he did for the Capital Region as well as our 25 state.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 I'd like us to observe a moment of 2 silence now, before we vote on this 3 resolution, in memory of Marty. 4 (Whereupon, the assemblage 5 respected a moment of silence.) 6 THE PRESIDENT: All in favor of 7 the resolution please signify by saying aye. 8 (Response of "Aye.") 9 THE PRESIDENT: Opposed, nay. 10 (No response.) 11 THE PRESIDENT: The resolution is 12 adopted. 13 Senator Bruno. 14 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 15 can we at this time adopt the Resolution 16 Calendar, with the exception of Resolution 17 3312. 18 THE PRESIDENT: All in favor of 19 so adopting the Resolution Calendar please 20 signify by saying aye. 21 (Response of "Aye.") 22 THE PRESIDENT: Opposed, nay. 23 (No response.) 24 THE PRESIDENT: The Resolution 25 Calendar is so adopted.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Bruno. 2 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 3 can we at this time take up the privileged 4 resolution by Senator Hugh Farley, 3312, have 5 it read in its entirety, and move for its 6 immediate adoption. 7 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 8 will read. 9 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 10 Farley, Legislative Resolution Number 3312, 11 congratulating the Amsterdam High School 12 Rugged Rams Football Team upon the occasion of 13 winning the Class A New York State 14 Championship. 15 "WHEREAS, The State of New York 16 takes great pride in acknowledging the 17 outstanding achievements of its high school 18 athletic teams; and 19 "WHEREAS, The Amsterdam High School 20 Rugged Rams Football Team won the Class A 21 New York State Championship following a 35-14 22 victory over Geneva at the Carrier Dome in 23 Syracuse on November 26, 2005; and 24 "WHEREAS, The team, with a record 25 of 11-2 for the season, was also victorious in

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 the Section II Super Bowl on November 4th, 2 defeating Averill Park 42-14; and 3 "WHEREAS, They went on to defeat 4 Indian River 33-8 for the Northern Regional 5 Championship on November 11th and to defeat 6 Harrison 20-10 for the Eastern Regional 7 Championship on November 19th; and 8 "WHEREAS, Their impressive victory 9 for the Class A State Championship is the 10 school's first ever Class A title and the 11 football team's first state title in ten 12 years. The last title won by the school's 13 football team was the Class B title in 1995; 14 and 15 "WHEREAS, Player T.J. Czeski was 16 named Most Valuable Player. He completed nine 17 of 14 passes for 119 yards and two touchdowns, 18 rushed for 78 yards, had five tackles, and 19 intercepted a pass in the red zone; and 20 "WHEREAS, The team was honored with 21 a parade through the city held on December 4, 22 2005. The streets were packed with adoring 23 and proud fans despite the cold weather; and 24 "WHEREAS, The extraordinary 25 52-member team was led by Head Coach Pat

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Liverio and his assistants; and 2 "WHEREAS, Their tremendous success 3 and outstanding sportsmanship and teamwork are 4 a wonderful inspiration to teams across 5 New York State; and 6 "WHEREAS, The State of New York is 7 proud to congratulate this group of 8 extraordinary young men; now, therefore, be it 9 "RESOLVED, That this Legislative 10 Body pause in its deliberations to 11 congratulate the Amsterdam High School Rugged 12 Rams Football Team upon the occasion of 13 winning the Class A New York State 14 Championship; and be it further 15 "RESOLVED, That copies of this 16 resolution, suitably engrossed, be transmitted 17 to the Greater Amsterdam School District and 18 to Head Coach Pat Liverio." 19 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Farley. 20 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Madam 21 President. 22 I rise to salute this magnificent 23 team which is in our gallery here, the 24 champions, Class A champions for the state of 25 New York.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Football in Amsterdam has been a 2 tradition, from the Little Giants -- how many 3 of you guys played for the Little Giants one 4 time in your life? Raise your hand. They 5 start -- they teethe on a football in 6 Amsterdam. 7 These people are the state 8 champions for New York State. And it's the 9 first time in their history, incidentally. 10 Unfortunately, in the Super Bowl in 11 Region II, they defeated Averill Park, which 12 Senator Bruno is still wincing over, and our 13 Lieutenant Governor comes from there, and our 14 distinguished counsel up there lives in 15 Averill Park. But those things happen in the 16 line of football. 17 I'm also joined here on the floor 18 with my colleague, who lives in Amsterdam and 19 is a graduate of their school system, 20 Assemblyman Paul Tonko, who's right over here. 21 And we will be meeting with the team a little 22 bit later. 23 But let me just say a couple words 24 about this magnificent accomplishment. Not 25 only did they go to the Carrier Dome and go

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 through and win the state championship, they 2 played a magnificent team from Geneva. 3 And my dear friend and colleague 4 Senator Nozzolio, we had a friendly wager. 5 And he supplied us with a bushel of apples. 6 And I offered them up in my district office in 7 Amsterdam, and I think everybody in Amsterdam 8 came to get one of your apples. I had to 9 supplement that order a little bit because it 10 was so popular. 11 But with that being said, I know 12 that Senator Nozzolio is very, very proud of 13 this team. And let me just say a word before 14 I yield to Senator Nozzolio. 15 T.J. Czeski, who was named the Most 16 Valuable Player, a remarkable young man who is 17 on a full scholarship to Wagner University -- 18 and that's in basketball, no less, so he's a 19 dual threat in that area -- I know his family 20 quite well. 21 And let me just say a word about 22 their magnificent coach, Pat Liverio. I'll 23 tell you, he's being looked at nationally. So 24 we want to keep him in Amsterdam to go on and 25 win more championships.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 We're very, very proud of this 2 magnificent team and particularly their 3 scholarship and so forth. Incidentally, 4 sitting with Assemblyman Tonko, we have the 5 McDermotts, who have a son -- Mrs. McDermott 6 has a son, and the grandfather is there. So 7 we're very, very honored to have you here in 8 our gallery. 9 And with that, I'm going to yield 10 to Senator Nozzolio, who represented Geneva. 11 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Nozzolio. 12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 13 Madam President. And thank you, Senator 14 Farley. On the resolution. 15 I rise to support the resolution 16 authored by my good friend and colleague 17 Senator Farley recognizing the tremendous 18 success of the Amsterdam Rugged Rams. 19 As Senator Farley indicated, I 20 represent the community of Geneva. And I am 21 very proud to say that on the evening of 22 Saturday, November 24th, I was seated in the 23 Carrier Dome cheering on the Geneva Panthers. 24 That it was great to see, though, 25 such a tremendous outpouring of support from

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Amsterdam. The entire community had to travel 2 a long way on a cold night, but they certainly 3 were warm and heated the Carrier Dome and 4 supported their Amsterdam team. 5 And I want to congratulate the 6 players, the coaching staff, the 7 administration for such a wonderful display of 8 athleticism. You beat a very, very good team 9 because you played very, very well. An 10 outstanding game. An outstanding group of 11 young men. 12 And I must also tell you that when 13 I delivered that bushel of Red Jacket Orchard 14 apples grown in Geneva to Senator Farley, I've 15 never seen such pride on his face. Because he 16 cared very much for his community. I know he 17 took great interest in the development of this 18 championship team. 19 Congratulations, State Champions. 20 Congratulations, Senator Farley. Couldn't 21 lose to a better colleague. And that I 22 certainly want to congratulate you all for a 23 job well done. 24 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you very 25 much, Senator Nozzolio.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 And let me just say that this team, 2 despite the snowstorm, despite everything that 3 happened -- and it was snowing a lot harder 4 than Amsterdam than it did here in Albany -- 5 made it in here. And again, they are winners 6 all the way. Congratulations, and we're very, 7 very proud and happy to have you here. 8 Madam President, if you would 9 please welcome this Championship Class A team. 10 THE PRESIDENT: I certainly will. 11 But first I believe Senator Bruno would like 12 to close. 13 SENATOR BRUNO: I would like to 14 add my congratulations to this Class A 15 championship team; to Senator Farley, for 16 having the wisdom to have you in his district; 17 and to Senator Nozzolio, for being such a good 18 sport. 19 You know, losing is no fun. But 20 somebody wins, somebody loses. And when 21 somebody loses, you got to be good-natured 22 about it. Like I don't resent the fact that 23 you beat Averill Park. 24 (Laughter.) 25 SENATOR BRUNO: You're welcome in

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 the chamber, and we are respecting and 2 honoring you. 3 But in a sincere way, you look 4 around at each other: you are champions. And 5 you are champions because you support each 6 other. You're a team. 7 When you go on in life, you will 8 fully appreciate what you have learned as a 9 team where you support each other. Because 10 you don't do much alone in this life, you do 11 it as a team -- with support, giving support, 12 being friends, getting friends. That's what 13 life's all about. 14 So you are champions, and we 15 congratulate you on what you have accomplished 16 so far in your life and congratulate you on 17 all the good things that you are going to do 18 as you go on in your lives being champions. 19 Congratulations. 20 And thank you, Madam President. 21 THE PRESIDENT: All in favor of 22 the resolution please signify by saying aye. 23 (Response of "Aye.") 24 THE PRESIDENT: Opposed, nay. 25 (No response.)

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 THE PRESIDENT: The resolution is 2 adopted. 3 And I have to say, I used to teach 4 in Averill Park so I have some sentiments. 5 But I have to defer to your excellence and to 6 emphasize again that the qualities that made 7 you successful in sports are definitely a sign 8 of future success. So I wish you the very 9 best. 10 Let's give them a big round of 11 applause and a warm welcome to the New York 12 State Senate. 13 (Extended applause.) 14 SENATOR FARLEY: Incidentally, 15 this resolution, which Assemblyman Tonko has 16 also sponsored in the Assembly, is open to 17 everybody in this chamber. So if anybody 18 would not like to be on it, please notify the 19 desk. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno, do 21 you have any objection to opening up the last 22 resolution? 23 Senator Skelos, do you have any 24 objection to opening up this resolution? 25 SENATOR SKELOS: No objection.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 THE PRESIDENT: Then any member 2 who do not does not wish to cosponsor the last 3 resolution please notify the desk. 4 Senator Skelos. 5 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 6 Resolution 3369, by Senator Golden, he asks if 7 we could open it up for sponsorship. Anybody 8 that wishes not to sponsor it, they should 9 notify the desk. 10 THE PRESIDENT: Any member who 11 does not wish to cosponsor Senator Golden's 12 resolution just referenced by Senator Skelos, 13 please so notify the desk. 14 Senator Skelos. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 16 if we could go to the noncontroversial reading 17 of the calendar. 18 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 19 will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 45, by Senator Fuschillo, Senate Print 785A, 22 an act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 23 establishing. 24 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 25 section.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll.) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 54. 6 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 7 passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 48, by Senator Golden, Senate Print 5984A, an 10 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 11 enabling. 12 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 13 section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 15 act shall take effect immediately. 16 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 55. 19 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 20 passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 54, by Senator Flanagan, Senate Print 5966A, 23 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in 24 relation to extending. 25 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 55. 7 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 8 passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 83, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 5763B, 11 an act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 12 the alternative fuels credit. 13 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 14 section. 15 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 16 act shall take effect immediately. 17 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll.) 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 55. 20 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 21 passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 84, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 58 -- 24 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Lay it 25 aside.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid 2 aside. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 85, by Senator Spano, Senate Print -- 5 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Lay it 6 aside. 7 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid 8 aside. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 86, by Senator Robach, Senate Print -- 11 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Lay it 12 aside. 13 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid 14 aside. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 87, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 5970A, an 17 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 18 providing a sales and compensating use tax 19 exemption. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 21 section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 13. This 23 act shall take effect immediately. 24 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 25 (The Secretary called the roll.)

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 55. 2 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 3 passed. 4 Senator Bruno, that completes the 5 noncontroversial reading of the calendar. 6 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President, 7 can we ask that the bells be rung. We are 8 going to now proceed to the controversial 9 calendar. 10 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 11 will ring the bell, and the members should 12 return to their seats now so we can proceed 13 with the controversial calendar. 14 Senator Skelos. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 16 can we take up the controversial calendar now, 17 beginning with Calendar Number 84, by Senator 18 Wright. 19 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 20 will read. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 84, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 5846A, an 23 act to amend the Tax Law. 24 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: 25 Explanation.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 THE PRESIDENT: An explanation 2 has been requested, Senator Wright. 3 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you, Madam 4 President. 5 The bill before us this morning 6 creates a new section, 28, of the Tax Law and 7 provides tax credits for biofuel production 8 plants. 9 The biofuel tax credit is 10 calculated at 15 cents a gallon after 11 production of 40,000 gallons, with a maximum 12 tax credit of 2.5 million per taxpayer per 13 year. The credit is available for a maximum 14 of four years. 15 The credit may not lower taxes 16 below the minimum tax fixed by law. If it 17 does, it will be treated as a refundable 18 overpayment of tax, but without any interest. 19 Biofuel includes both biodiesel and 20 ethanol. The intent of the legislation is to 21 encourage the development of the biofuel 22 industry in New York State. New York is 23 already using ethanol as a mix in its gasoline 24 as a result of action of this Legislature 25 banning the use of MBTE. And so as a result,

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 we need that as an additive to achieve 2 compliance with federal air emissions 3 standards. 4 Equally important, we're now 5 currently importing that biofuel rather than 6 producing it here in New York State and 7 thereby creating jobs and adding to the 8 economy of the state. 9 So by pursuing this tax incentive, 10 we encourage an industry to develop in the 11 state. That will have positive benefits for 12 our agricultural industry. It in turn will 13 have positive environmental impacts and have 14 positive economic impacts. 15 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Krueger. 16 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you, 17 Madam President. If the sponsor would please 18 yield. 19 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Wright, 20 will you yield for a question? 21 SENATOR WRIGHT: Yes, I will, 22 Madam President. 23 THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed 24 with a question, Senator. 25 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 We had an extensive debate on this 2 last year. And since this is an A version, 3 can I start off, have you amended this bill at 4 all since last year? 5 SENATOR WRIGHT: This is the same 6 version that was passed in September. 7 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 8 Madam President, if the sponsor would continue 9 to yield. 10 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Wright, 11 do you continue to yield? 12 SENATOR WRIGHT: I will, Madam 13 President. 14 THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed 15 with a question. 16 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 17 You mentioned in your explanation 18 that it would be up to $2.5 million per plant 19 per year for no more than four years. Do we 20 have any existing plants this would apply to 21 in New York State? 22 SENATOR WRIGHT: We have several 23 plants that are under consideration. We 24 anticipate that by the end of the year there 25 will be four plants in the state, two in the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Central New York area, one in Western 2 New York, and one in the mid-Hudson. 3 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 4 Madam President, if the sponsor 5 will continue to yield, please. 6 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Wright, 7 do you yield? 8 SENATOR WRIGHT: I will continue 9 to yield, Madam President. 10 THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed 11 with a question, Senator. 12 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 13 There's been more attention, I 14 think, around biofuels and ethanol production 15 even since we last debated this bill, perhaps 16 because of the radically rising costs of 17 petroleum. And one of the new concerns that 18 seems to be coming out in the literature is 19 that the shifting of the use of agricultural 20 products to ethanol and biofuels can actually 21 dramatically raise the costs for others in the 22 agriculture sector because those products 23 suddenly are not available as easily for feed 24 or for human consumption. 25 And I was wondering, since you

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 talked about the economics for New York State, 2 whether anyone's done an analysis for us of 3 what if any negative consequences there might 4 be on other parts of our agricultural industry 5 if we shift the use of these products to 6 ethanol and/or biofuel production. 7 SENATOR WRIGHT: Madam President, 8 I'm not aware of any detailed analysis that 9 has been done. 10 The agricultural community, 11 including the Farm Bureau, supports this 12 legislation. So from their perspective, they 13 do not anticipate any dramatically adverse 14 impacts upon their industry. 15 In turn, of course, it's like any 16 other commodity, there will be supply and 17 demand issues initially. But once you have an 18 existing capacity within the state, that sends 19 a very clear signal to producers, be it corn 20 or willow or whatever we're using to create 21 the biofuel, that there will be a permanent 22 market that they can sell into. 23 And as a result, I believe you will 24 see supply in fact increase, and that will 25 have a positive impact, providing a diverse

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 product to many of our farms throughout 2 northern New York. 3 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 4 Madam President, on the bill. 5 THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed 6 on the bill, Senator Krueger. 7 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you, 8 Madam President. 9 I appreciate the sponsor's 10 responses to my questions. 11 I spoke out against this bill last 12 time and voted against it, and I've done some 13 additional homework since. But I have to say 14 my concerns are that the State of New York 15 needs to do more homework for itself before it 16 goes down this road. 17 Once you start to open the door of 18 tax exemptions and credits and encouragement 19 for certain new industries -- and as the 20 Senator clarified, we don't have this yet in 21 New York, we're talking about having some in 22 the pipeline -- I think it's incumbent on us 23 in the government to figure out, before we 24 start to incentivize a new type of business, 25 what that impact would be for us, both for

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 other parts of the agriculture sector, whether 2 there are differences out there between 3 biofuels that use, as was said, hardwoods, 4 grasses, nuts, as opposed to ethanol, where 5 there has been some research showing that that 6 is a seriously costly model for replacement of 7 petroleum. 8 So while I am more open than I was 9 a few months ago to the idea of exploring what 10 could the State of New York do to increase the 11 use of biofuels, particularly since I would 12 argue that we need to do everything possible 13 to decrease our use of petroleum products and 14 decrease our dependence on foreign oil, I 15 still think that the right type of legislation 16 for us to be moving at this time is some kind 17 of mandated research by government and the 18 industries that would be affected in New York 19 to figure out what is the right direction to 20 go. 21 Because not all biofuels are equal 22 or offer the best or the same options for us. 23 And I think before we start to incentivize by 24 giving away our tax dollars to particular 25 industries or new developing industries, we

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 need to ask the question what will it really 2 mean for us. 3 So I continue to argue that it's 4 too early for us to pass this kind of bill and 5 open up this door. I'll be voting no. 6 Thank you, Madam President. 7 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 8 Marcellino. 9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, Madam 10 President. Thank you. 11 I rise in support of this 12 legislation. I use, as a classic example, a 13 few years ago when I proposed the tax credit 14 on hybrid vehicles and the hybrid technology, 15 we didn't propose a tax credit for any 16 particular car, we proposed a tax credit on 17 the technology. Nobody was buying hybrid cars 18 then. In my office was General Motors, 19 Chrysler -- representatives, obviously -- and 20 Ford. They were opposed to this: "Senator, 21 it was an interim technology. It's not the 22 future. Fuel cells is going to be the 23 future." Well, fuel cells is hydrogen 24 technology. 25 And I said to them, you know, then:

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 "It may be in the future, but you're 20, 30 2 years down the road before you're even close. 3 Hybrids are going to be here." 4 Today, hybrids you can't buy. It's 5 a six- to eight- to nine-month waiting list to 6 buy hybrid cars. Who manufactures the vast 7 majority of them? Japanese car makers. Who's 8 laying off thousands of workers in this 9 country? American car makers. Who's losing 10 profits? American car makers. Who's losing 11 jobs? American workers. It's an outrage. 12 We can wait and wait and wait and 13 wait and wait. It doesn't help. Do you know 14 who's going to be, ladies and gentlemen of the 15 Legislature, who's going to be the largest 16 manufacturer of cars in this country next 17 year? Toyota. The largest manufacturer of 18 cars is going to be Toyota. Not General 19 Motors, not Ford, and not Chrysler. It's an 20 outrage. 21 We cannot afford to wait. American 22 car manufacturers seem to be waiting for some 23 myth down the road. We can research things to 24 death. It's time to move. In Brazil, 25 gasoline in Brazil, 85 percent ethanol.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 85 percent. That's nationwide. We could do 2 that here. Ford is now beginning to develop 3 their supersecret car which would operate on 4 ethanol. Think what that would do for our 5 economy. We produce more sugarcane than we 6 can take. That's, by the way, where they get 7 it from. They get it from sugarcane, not 8 corn. 9 So the technologies that we want to 10 incentivize have to be moved. Senator Wright 11 is to be congratulated. We need to bring 12 these types of vehicle, these types of plants, 13 this type of industry online now and in 14 incentivize them and grow them and grow jobs, 15 literally, and grow ourselves out of this 16 dependency on fossil fuels and foreign fuels. 17 It's destroying this country and eventually 18 will destroy the world. 19 Ladies and gentlemen, I think we 20 should all support this bill wholeheartedly. 21 It's the right thing to do. 22 THE PRESIDENT: Does any other 23 member wish to be heard on this bill? 24 Then the debate is closed. 25 The Secretary will ring the bell.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Read the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 7 will announce the results. 8 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 9 the negative on Calendar Number 84 are 10 Senators Duane, Hassell-Thompson, and 11 L. Krueger. 12 Those absent pursuant to Rule 9 are 13 Senators Breslin, Johnson, Libous, Montgomery, 14 M. Smith, Stavisky, and Trunzo. 15 Those Senators absent from voting: 16 Senator Sampson. 17 Ayes, 47. Nays, 3. 18 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 19 passed. 20 The Secretary will continue to 21 read. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 85, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 5965A, an 24 act to amend the Tax Law. 25 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Explanation. 2 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Spano, an 3 explanation has been requested. 4 SENATOR SPANO: Thank you, Madam 5 President. 6 Last September, September 14th in 7 New York City, the Investigations Committee 8 conducted hearings on the surging prices of 9 home heating fuel as well as gasoline taxes. 10 We listened to testimony from everyone from 11 the oil companies to the service stations and 12 everyone in between. 13 We learned a lot at that hearing. 14 We learned about the failed energy policies of 15 the federal government. I would take it a 16 step further; we heard that there are no 17 energy policies of the federal government. 18 And maybe tonight maybe we'll hear the 19 president talk about cracking down on profits 20 of oil companies. Because as we read today, 21 Exxon, with a $10 billion surplus in the final 22 quarter of the year, is something that is 23 obnoxious to all of us. 24 We know there have been no 25 refineries, no new refineries. We know that

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 there's a concentration of refineries in the 2 Gulf Coast. And we recognize that those in 3 Washington are pointing fingers of blame all 4 over the place. 5 We also learned, of course, that 6 there's nothing at all that we can do about 7 that and that let us focus on what we can do 8 to those people who we continue to call the 9 overburdened taxpayers in our communities. 10 Who are more overburdened than our 11 seniors? It's easy for us to say to our 12 family members, lower the thermostat. But 13 when you're a senior living in an apartment or 14 living in a house, particularly in the 15 metropolitan area of New York or all across 16 New York State, it is not realistic to say, 17 lower the heat. 18 So the alternative is for us to 19 come up with a program, $140 million, that 20 impacts 640,000 seniors across this state. We 21 provide a $100 personal income tax credit to 22 the renters, and we provide a $200 rebate 23 check to those seniors who are eligible for 24 the enhanced STAR program. It's a direct way 25 of helping those people who are most in need

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 in this state. 2 And this has been an issue that we 3 in the Senate have continued to take a 4 leadership role on and hope to see passage of 5 this soon so that the benefit will go directly 6 to those seniors before April, so that they 7 will see a benefit when they're seeing those 8 heating fuel bills, when they open those 9 bills. 10 Yes, consumption may be down, but 11 the cost of heating fuel is significantly 12 higher as a result of what's happening in 13 Washington. But this is the best way that we 14 can come up with to find a solution to 15 lessening the burden on our seniors and our 16 communities. 17 THE PRESIDENT: Senator 18 Schneiderman. 19 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you, 20 Madam President. On the bill. 21 THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed. 22 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: This is 23 the same bill, and the other legislation we're 24 moving today is essentially the same, subject 25 to changes in a few dates and technical

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 details, that we passed when we were here in 2 September. And the objections that some of us 3 had to this legislation is equally applicable 4 to the legislation presented to us today. 5 What I find the most discouraging, 6 frankly, is we are clearly in a time when the 7 people of the State of New York are paying too 8 much for gas, for oil, for energy. And I 9 respectfully disagree with my friend and 10 colleague Senator Spano that there's nothing 11 we can do to deal with the lapses with the 12 federal government. I mean, we certainly, for 13 starters, we can withdraw our support from the 14 parts of the federal government that are 15 responsible for this catastrophe. 16 But second of all, the State of 17 New York has tremendous power to develop an 18 energy plan not to deal with this in a 19 haphazard way, to deal with something that is 20 fair to all the people of the State of New 21 York. The reason we are not doing that is 22 because the Energy Planning Board expired in 23 2002. The 2002 energy plan is badly outdated. 24 This is state policy. This is 25 something we have the ability to remedy. So

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 what is required is leadership at the state 2 level, what is required is a comprehensive 3 energy plan not just to deal on a piecemeal 4 basis with small parts of the problem, but to 5 deal comprehensively with the explosion of 6 energy prices in our state. 7 Now, this particular piece of 8 legislation, again, I think we pointed out 9 some problems with it when it came up in 10 September. It is the same bill. It's not 11 moving in the Assembly. It's not going 12 anywhere. I'm not sure, on an energy bill, 13 what the justification is for wasting the 14 energy to reprint the exact same bill that 15 hasn't moved forward at all. But this is a 16 bill that many of us voted against because it 17 clearly and blatantly discriminates against 18 tenants and against renters. 19 I appreciate the fact that 20 homeowners have problems with heating costs, 21 but so do renters. And to continue to push a 22 bill that provides a $200 credit to homeowners 23 that meet certain qualifications, but only a 24 $100 credit to tenants, to renters -- who 25 very, very frequently have less resources, are

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 poorer than the homeowners -- is simply 2 discrimination that we shouldn't accept. 3 It's not necessary for it to be in 4 this bill. We pointed this out when it came 5 up in September. This bill is not moving 6 forward in the Assembly. I don't see any 7 progress towards a comprehensive energy plan. 8 Let's do this right. Let's not continue to 9 press bills that aren't going anywhere and 10 reprint them, at some cost of energy. Let's 11 work towards passing something that can pass 12 the Assembly, that can get done with the 13 cooperation of the Executive. Let's move 14 towards an energy plan. 15 And please, as we go forward, let's 16 provide justice for all New Yorkers. Let's 17 provide relief from energy costs for all 18 New Yorkers. Let us not be, the Senate be the 19 house that discriminates over and over again 20 against renters and tenants. That's what this 21 bill does. For that reason, I'm voting no. 22 And I would urge that we move 23 forward and try and come up with some energy 24 proposals that could pass the Assembly, that 25 could become law, that could be a part of a

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 comprehensive energy plan. 2 Thank you, Madam President. 3 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Wright. 4 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you, Madam 5 President. 6 I rise to recognize Senator Spano's 7 efforts, because this effort commenced with 8 Senator Spano in this house last September. 9 And it's because of that effort 10 that a week ago we achieved an agreement 11 dealing with the HEAP program and providing 12 unprecedented commitment of state dollars to 13 assist low- and moderate-income individuals 14 across the State of New York, to the tune of 15 $100 million. 16 This is an important component of a 17 comprehensive approach to energy. Because we 18 have provided HEAP money, we've called upon 19 the federal government to provide additional 20 HEAP money. And now we are providing a 21 component to those individuals most in need, 22 our senior population. 23 Now, the bill in fact is balanced. 24 If one looks at square footage and utilization 25 records, you'll find that renters typically

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 have smaller space than homeowners, typically 2 have lower heating costs than homeowners. 3 Consequently, you see the differential in the 4 bill. Not discrimination, but in fact equal 5 treatment, recognition of the differences in 6 cost and impact. 7 So we in fact do have a balanced 8 approach. We do have a bill that, when 9 coupled with the additional appropriations 10 last week to HEAP, provide a solution that is 11 badly needed in this state. 12 I commend Senator Spano for his 13 efforts, and I'm very pleased to join with him 14 in supporting the bill today. 15 Thank you, Madam President. 16 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Parker. 17 SENATOR PARKER: Madam President, 18 on the bill. 19 THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed 20 on the bill. 21 SENATOR PARKER: First let me 22 begin by thanking Senator Spano for his 23 concern on this issue. Energy issues really 24 should be really more on the front burner of 25 what we are talking about this year and what's

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 going on in the State of New York, especially 2 in the wake of Katrina and what we saw in 3 terms of both rising fuel prices but also 4 what's happening to our school districts, 5 what's happening in people's homes. 6 I'm sure there's not any member 7 here who hasn't gotten a significant amount of 8 calls from constituents complaining about 9 their heating bills. And I think that, you 10 know, we really need to be working together to 11 figure out how we in fact move forward to 12 provided relief for seniors, for poor 13 New Yorkers who can't afford to heat their 14 homes and apartments. 15 However, this bill doesn't do that. 16 This bill does not take us where we need to 17 be. This bill provides a significant 18 inequity. There's a significant lack of 19 distribution of resources. 20 We have tried to deal with this 21 issue. This bill would cost the state roughly 22 around $300 million. And I think that that 23 money could be better used in a program like 24 the Temporary Home Energy Assistance Grant 25 program. And I think that those kind of

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 programs, that really work on the federal 2 model and really supplement what is being done 3 by the federal government for folks who are 4 not eligible for that program, really is the 5 way we ought to be going. 6 So I want to rise not to oppose 7 you, Senator Spano, but to work with you on 8 creating a solution together that we think 9 will help everybody equally across the state. 10 THE PRESIDENT: Does any other 11 member wish to be heard? 12 Senator Krueger. 13 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you, 14 Madam President. On the bill. 15 THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed. 16 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 17 Again I rise to argue against this 18 bill. The Home Energy Assistance Program has 19 been mentioned now several times by my 20 colleagues. And yes, we put a hundred million 21 dollars into that, although analysts argue 22 that, given what the federal government has 23 failed to do and the cost of home heating 24 increases, that we really should have put in 25 at least $200 million or $300 million into

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 HEAP, not $100 million. 2 So then suddenly we have a 3 revisiting of a bill from September that would 4 cost us that kind of money in a different 5 model. We should be putting that money -- if 6 we're prepared to put more state money into 7 assisting low-income people with their ability 8 to pay for heating in their homes, we should 9 be putting that money into an existing 10 successful program called HEAP. 11 But even HEAP tends to discriminate 12 against renters versus homeowners, because the 13 money shifts to the owners of the building for 14 tenants, and that money is not always then 15 reinvested into the building to ensure that it 16 is weatherized, to ensure that rents don't go 17 up disproportionately when the building owner 18 has already received assistance from the HEAP 19 program. 20 But this bill -- and the words were 21 used before, and I have to emphasize it -- it 22 does discriminate in several ways between 23 people who own their own homes versus people 24 who lease or rent theirs. And it's not just 25 the $200 versus the $100 difference, it's also

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 the mechanism. 2 For the homeowners, it would be a 3 rebate, a check in the mail from the Tax 4 Department immediately and directly when you 5 need the money. Like HEAP, that gives you 6 money to pay your bill directly and 7 immediately. 8 And for renters and leasers, it 9 would be a tax credit, meaning you would have 10 to learn somehow that there was a new credit 11 for you out there, if you fell into certain 12 categories; you would have to make an 13 application for it through the Department of 14 Tax and Finance; and you would have to hope 15 that that worked through correctly and you got 16 a credit against other taxes owed, not a check 17 in the mail to pay your utilities when you 18 need to. 19 And technically, the way the bill 20 is written, in order to draw down that hundred 21 dollars -- if you figured out that credit, if 22 you got that paperwork in, if you ever got a 23 response and got a credit on taxes, not a 24 rebate check in the mail -- it would be 25 dependent on being able to prove that you paid

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 separately for heat. 2 And of course the dilemma in the 3 big cities of this state -- I won't speak for 4 everywhere, but having done a little homework, 5 about 90 percent of renters actually have 6 their heat costs attached as part of their 7 rent cost, or the bill technically comes as 8 part of their landlord's costs, not a separate 9 freestanding bill from a utility company. 10 So it's not clear to me how the 11 vast majority of renters, even though their 12 housing and heating costs are going up, would 13 ever be eligible to apply even for this 14 discounted, harder-to-get benefit. 15 So New York State should move 16 forward with simple, tried-and-true models for 17 ensuring that low-income people who can't 18 afford to pay their heating bills get that 19 money when they need it. HEAP is a program 20 that exists. As was said by Senator Wright, 21 we just proudly put a hundred million more 22 into it. We could do more to adjust for some 23 of the unfairness of the federal HEAP program, 24 because we're now putting state money in. 25 That's where we should be focusing

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 our energy and our attention. And in fact we 2 have support in both houses and I believe the 3 Governor's chambers for HEAP, and we should be 4 moving forward immediately on that. 5 So I will be voting against this 6 bill. It goes in the wrong direction and it 7 complicates the debate. 8 Thank you, Madam President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 10 you. 11 Is there any other Senator wishing 12 to be heard? 13 Senator Marcellino. 14 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam 15 President, just briefly on the bill. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: On the 17 bill. 18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I think it's 19 important. I want to commend Senator Spano 20 for this legislation. I think it's time and 21 it's something that we need to do at this 22 point in time. 23 But what I'm hearing from the other 24 side about getting a policy, getting things 25 done, you know, we're doing bills that we've

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 done before -- yeah, we're doing bills that 2 we've done before. And the reason we're doing 3 it, we're trying to prod, as Senator Bruno 4 said at a press availability a couple of hours 5 ago, is to get the other house to do 6 something. 7 This house is passing legislation 8 with an energy policy in mind, a current 9 policy and a policy for long-term. We're 10 doing something, or we're trying to. But in 11 this state, it takes three legs of the stool 12 to work. We need something from the other 13 house. 14 If they don't agree with everything 15 that is in our package, I urge them and I ask 16 my colleagues to take a deep breath and urge 17 their colleagues on the other side to pass a 18 bill, pass their own version. We'll go to 19 conference committees, resolve the issues as 20 we've done in the past, and resolve our 21 issues. I see no reason why they can't do 22 that. But the Assembly has done nothing but 23 talk. 24 Talk is cheap, and heating costs 25 are expensive. So I suggest we move ahead on

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 this thing. Ladies and gentlemen, we should 2 move this bill. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 4 you, Senator Marcellino. 5 Senator Diaz. 6 SENATOR DIAZ: Thank you, Madam 7 President. On the bill. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: On the 9 bill. 10 SENATOR DIAZ: It is 11 understandable that the bill doesn't cover 12 everything that we want and that there is more 13 to be done. 14 However, I come from a district 15 that represents a lot of senior citizens, 16 homeowner senior citizens and all kinds of 17 senior citizens. And this bill would provide 18 the financial relief to New York seniors to 19 assist them with their home heating bills this 20 winter. 21 I know seniors that -- I know some 22 seniors -- a lot of seniors in my district 23 that, even though they are homeowners, some of 24 them, and some of them are renting, they have 25 to decide if they should buy their medicine,

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 to pay their rent, to pay their heating bills, 2 or to purchase food. 3 So I understand that this bill 4 doesn't go all the way that we want. But 5 ladies and gentlemen, anything, anything, 6 anything that could help senior citizens is 7 good. For us to come here and to prevent some 8 seniors to get some relief and some seniors to 9 get something based on the fact that not 10 everybody is going to get it, that's wrong. 11 I'm here to do anything possible, 12 whatever I could do, to protect and to help 13 senior citizens. In my district, throughout 14 New York State, in anywhere, senior citizens 15 are carrying a heavy burden. And we all 16 should be concerned with that, and we all 17 should be concerned in protecting senior 18 citizens, and we all should be concerned doing 19 for seniors whatever we can. 20 So even though this is not a 21 perfect bill, it is a good bill. And I'm 22 voting for it. 23 Thank you. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 25 you, Senator Diaz.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Hassell-Thompson. 2 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: Thank 3 you, Madam President. Just two points on the 4 bill. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: On the 6 bill. 7 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: 8 Senator Spano, you and I share contiguous 9 communities. And certainly I would not like 10 to go on the record as having anyone believe 11 that I would not be supportive of any 12 legislation that would give relief to seniors. 13 However, the two points that 14 concern me greatly is that there's nothing in 15 this bill that prohibits oil companies and 16 retail outlets from raising the price next 17 week or tomorrow, thereby undermining the 18 entire notion of providing direct relief to 19 New York consumers. 20 The second is that this tax relief 21 may only encourage an increase in the amount 22 of consumption of gasoline, which would then 23 continue to cause the price of oil to rise. 24 So if we were able in some way to 25 ensure that we were capping it so that the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 relief -- we knew that the relief would go 2 directly to consumers, I would be much more 3 amenable to supporting this bill. However, I 4 cannot. 5 Thank you, Madam President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 7 you, Senator. 8 Is there any other Senator wishing 9 to be heard? 10 Senator Saland. 11 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Madam 12 President. 13 I've listened to the debate, and 14 I've certainly heard the comments in 15 opposition to the bill. For those of us who 16 own homes, we do know that, depending upon the 17 size of your home, it's going to cost you 18 more. The larger the home, the more to heat 19 it. I considered myself fortunate this year 20 to be able to lock in a price in fuel oil that 21 was merely about 50 percent more than I had 22 paid last year. 23 And contrary to what I think was 24 the message I just heard, the fact of the 25 matter is if you're paying for your own fuel

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 oil, the price of it being as expensive as it 2 is, or I would think regardless, you don't 3 squander that resource. You are very careful 4 in what you set your term thermostat at, and 5 you take great pains not to waste your heat. 6 So the size of the house -- 2,000, 7 3,000, 3,500 and perhaps much larger -- 8 certainly is much larger than anything you're 9 going to see in most apartments. The fact 10 that you own a home and you're paying taxes 11 and you're writing off your taxes, you're 12 filing a return in which you take your 13 deductions -- perhaps, as an apartment owner, 14 you're merely taking a standard deduction. 15 The difference between a rebate and a tax 16 credit may well reflect the manner in which 17 you are filing. 18 But certainly the vast majority of 19 people who have homes are taking personal 20 deductions for whatever it is costing them in 21 the course of paying their taxes and, if they 22 happen to own as distinguished from lease, 23 paying their mortgage. 24 So I think it is certainly, at the 25 very least, counterintuitive to assume that

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Spano's bill is going to drive up the 2 cost of oil, because there's no consumer who's 3 paying the price of his or her cost of heating 4 that's going to indiscriminately drive up 5 their own cost. What they're doing to do is, 6 in a measured fashion, control how they're 7 heating their homes. 8 As distinguished from somebody who 9 may be in an apartment in which they're not 10 paying for their heat and the heat continues 11 to flow at rates far beyond what you would 12 expect in an owned or leased residence in 13 which somebody is paying for their own fuel 14 oil. 15 So I commend Senator Spano for 16 bringing this bill before us. I think it 17 fills a need. I think it fills a critical 18 need for seniors. And I think it fits very 19 well in the package of bills we've seen today. 20 And I would hope that this debate 21 somehow or other will incite our friends over 22 in the other house to bring forth their own 23 package, and perhaps from that we will be able 24 to make some progress on behalf of the people 25 of the State of New York.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Thank you. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 3 you, Senator Saland. 4 Senator Spano, to close the debate. 5 SENATOR SPANO: Thank you, Madam 6 President. 7 Just a couple of corrections on 8 some of the things that were said. As Senator 9 Krueger was talking about, and as well Senator 10 Schneiderman, about negative impact on 11 tenants, what we're talking about is giving a 12 $100 tax credit to our tenants. 13 And every one of our tenants who 14 live in buildings across the state do pay 15 their fair share of heating that apartment. 16 They may not pay it directly to the energy 17 company or to the oil company, but they're 18 paying it as a part of their base rent, and 19 it's certainly our intention to cover all of 20 those as a part of this. 21 With regard to my colleague from 22 Westchester's comments, you know, the Attorney 23 General right now is and should continue to go 24 after those companies who are gouging. We 25 should be looking at our statutes with regard

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 to gouging here. And there are 2 recommendations that Senator Wright and others 3 have made with regard to that issue. 4 It shouldn't mean that we shouldn't 5 do anything here, though. You would have 6 taken that argument when we talked about, a 7 few years ago, limiting the sales tax on home 8 heating fuels. Well, there's 41 counties in 9 this state who have removed the sales tax on 10 home heating fuels. You didn't see an 11 increase in heating fuels as a result of that. 12 The market wouldn't allow that. And if they 13 did, we have an Attorney General who could go 14 after them. And we need to encourage them. 15 I started off by saying that -- I 16 didn't say we can't do anything about the 17 federal government's lack of a federal policy, 18 energy policy. I think we can. And the fact 19 that we're standing here on the Senate floor 20 in New York State speaking about the lack of 21 energy policy is tantamount to us doing 22 something about it. Maybe someone in 23 Washington will listen to us, whether they be 24 Republicans or Democrats, and that's our 25 purpose in standing here today.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 But we can also add to those issues 2 that were raised by Senator Wright. We are 3 standing here doing something. Senator Diaz 4 said it, we are doing something. Any one of 5 us can find a reason not to do something. But 6 our seniors, when they open those bills every 7 month, are going to look to us and say: What 8 are you doing about it? 9 If you want to vote against this 10 bill, that's your prerogative. But we are 11 standing here saying to our seniors in this 12 state: We recognize the struggles that you 13 have. We are standing here talking about 14 starting a process, asking for partnership 15 from the Assembly, asking for partnership from 16 Washington. And let's make this happen. It 17 has to start somewhere, and it's starting here 18 in the Senate. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 20 you, Senator Spano. 21 The Secretary will ring the bell. 22 Read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 24 act shall take effect immediately. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Call

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: 4 Announce the results. 5 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 6 the negative on Calendar Number 85 are 7 Senators Andrews, Connor, Duane, 8 Hassell-Thompson, L. Krueger, Parker, 9 Paterson, Schneiderman, Serrano, and A. Smith. 10 Those absent pursuant to Rule 9 are 11 Senators Breslin, Johnson, Libous, Montgomery, 12 M. Smith, and Stavisky. 13 Those Senators absent from voting: 14 Senator Sampson. 15 Ayes, 46. Nays, 10. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: The 17 bill is passed. 18 Senator Trunzo. 19 SENATOR TRUNZO: Madam President, 20 Pursuant to Rule 9, I was required to be at a 21 meeting of the Finance Committee, Standing 22 Committee on Transportation, and I cast my 23 vote as follows on a bill on the controversial 24 calendar. On Bill Number 5846A, Calendar 25 Number 84, I vote aye.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 2 you, Senator Trunzo. The record will so 3 reflect. 4 SENATOR TRUNZO: Thank you. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: The 6 Secretary will read. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 86, by Senator Robach, Senate Print 5968, an 9 act to amend the Tax Law. 10 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: 11 Explanation. 12 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: 13 Explanation. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Senator 15 Robach for an explanation, please. 16 SENATOR ROBACH: Gladly, Madam 17 President. 18 This is a bill which would cap the 19 sales tax on gasoline at $2 a gallon. Again, 20 in a comprehensive package, something that 21 will help all New Yorkers across the state -- 22 upstate and downstate, young and old, for 23 business transportation, family 24 transportation, to again attempt to cut the 25 amount of money people are paying for fuel at

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 the pump. 2 This is certainly something I've 3 heard from greatly from my constituents as 4 these spikes go on. And while I wish I had 5 the magic wand to get into the profits, the 6 large profits of some of the oil companies, 7 this clearly is something we can do in our 8 purview, sales tax, to help working men and 9 women all across this state have to pay a 10 little bit less for gas at the pump. 11 And I am hopeful -- this was 12 brought up once before, passed this house 13 overwhelmingly. We will do all we can to work 14 with our colleagues on the other side of the 15 aisle to get this implemented. 16 And I know this is an explanation, 17 but let me caution everyone in the chamber. 18 While to some degree I wouldn't say gas has 19 become cheaper, because that's the wrong word, 20 it has stabilized out somewhat. My guess is 21 we will be seeing that increase as we move 22 forward. Now is the time to act to help all 23 our constituents. 24 And so hopefully this policy, 25 again, to help people at the pump will move

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 forward. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 3 you. 4 Senator Duane. No? I'm sorry. 5 Senator Schneiderman. 6 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you, 7 Madam President. Senator Duane will lead us 8 in calisthenics. 9 On the bill. Thank you. 10 Once again, ladies and gentlemen, 11 there is no basis for any assertion that 12 anyone on this side of the aisle does not want 13 to do something about high energy costs. My 14 colleagues on this side of the aisle do 15 represent most of the very poor communities in 16 this state where people are burdened the most 17 by energy costs, where people have to make 18 decisions between heat and fuel. This is 19 something that is of vital concern to everyone 20 in this house. And I believe that, with all 21 good faith, it's of vital concern to my 22 colleagues on the other side of the aisle. 23 The problem I have with this bill, 24 the problem I have with the approach we're 25 taking in this house is that, frankly,

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 continuing to print and advance the same 2 flawed bills over and over again does not in 3 fact move the debate forward. 4 You want to move the debate forward 5 with the Assembly? Let's show we're actually 6 doing something. Let's take suggestions that 7 make sense and do something with them. 8 The bill that we debated just a few 9 moments ago, no one here objects to the effort 10 in good faith to provide relief to seniors 11 from increased home heating oil costs. The 12 problem is when you look at a piece of 13 legislation that's going to cost hundreds of 14 millions of dollars and say, in fact, if you 15 analyze it, the people who are most in need 16 are not going to be eligible for this relief, 17 then that's a problem. That's not something 18 that's going to move forward. That's not 19 something that's going to become law and 20 provide relief to anyone. 21 This piece of legislation, once 22 again, I thought we offered helpful 23 suggestions in September. The sponsors have 24 not seen fit to add any of those suggestions 25 to improve the bills. This legislation does

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 not deal with the fact that sales taxes, which 2 it would reduce on motor fuel and diesel motor 3 fuel, are collected from wholesalers when they 4 accept delivery of a shipment of fuel. This 5 would give a break to wholesalers. Absolutely 6 caps taxes for wholesalers, no question. 7 There is nothing in this bill, as 8 there was nothing in September, to ensure or 9 to even monitor whether or not those savings 10 are passed to the retailers. There is nothing 11 in this bill, as there was not in September, 12 to ensure or even to find out if the savings 13 are passed from the retailers to the 14 consumers. 15 So once again we have a piece of 16 legislation that sounds good, that's a 17 one-house bill with no sponsor in the 18 Assembly, that doesn't have corresponding 19 legislation. Maybe it doesn't have 20 corresponding legislation because it is, on 21 its face, not particularly compelling. 22 This does not guarantee that one 23 dollar goes to a consumer. Maybe it would. 24 Maybe it would. Again, and I think perhaps 25 the sponsor is a bit idealistic about oil

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 companies, saying that, you know, we do 2 believe they will -- they want to reduce costs 3 and they want to keep costs down. Maybe they 4 do. But the relief is slow. A lot of money 5 is left on the table at the wholesaler level 6 and at the retailer level. 7 If we really want to help the 8 consumers of this state, let's pass a bill 9 like this and add in some provisions to ensure 10 that the savings are passed on. Let's pass a 11 bill like this that adds in provisions for 12 monitoring where the savings go. That's easy 13 to do. 14 As with the bill that we just were 15 debating earlier, it's easy to do something 16 that tries to ensure that the people most in 17 need of relief from home heating oil costs, 18 even if they're paying through their landlord 19 and their landlord increases their rent and 20 heating costs -- rent and utility costs, which 21 is the way it's broken out in many cases -- 22 they go up, but they wouldn't be eligible for 23 Senator Spano's bill. 24 Let's make the modifications that 25 make these bills better and not continue to

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 reprint and push bills that aren't going to go 2 anywhere in their present form. 3 So I'm going to be against this 4 bill for the same reasons we were against it 5 in September. This does not guarantee any 6 pass-through of the savings from the 7 wholesalers to the retailers or from the 8 retailers to the consumers. We need to do 9 better than that. We need to take action on 10 things like the proposal we made in September, 11 on our side of the aisle, to change the 12 price-gouging statutes for more effective 13 enforcement of price-gouging laws in New York 14 State. 15 Let's look at the overall picture 16 and ensure that the people we are claiming to 17 help actually will receive the benefits from 18 the legislation. Until we do that, we're 19 engaged in an exercise of one-house pandering, 20 continuing to assert that we're solving 21 problems that we're not in fact solving. 22 There is a lot we can do in this 23 state to reduce energy costs. Senator Wright 24 was absolutely correct when he said we have to 25 look ahead, we have to anticipate the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 direction of the markets. We should be a 2 state with strong portfolio standards, 3 reducing costs, using photovoltaic, using wind 4 energy, using alternative fuels where they 5 will save money for our consumers. We should 6 have an energy plan to do that. 7 But the legislation that we're 8 passing today I'm afraid is not getting the 9 job done. Certainly this bill and the last 10 bill, if you really analyze them, don't 11 deliver the results, don't deliver the aid 12 where it is most needed, do not guarantee that 13 the consumers most in need will receive the 14 benefits. 15 If we're going to spend our 16 taxpayers' precious dollars, let's make sure 17 it goes to the right place. Until we do that, 18 Madam President, I will continue to vote no on 19 this piece of legislation. 20 Thank you very much. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 22 you, Senator Schneiderman. 23 Senator Winner. 24 SENATOR WINNER: Thank you, Madam 25 President.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 I listened with interest to Senator 2 Schneiderman's comments with regard to his 3 concern that the price savings on the sales 4 tax relief will not be passed on to the 5 consumers. And all I can say is that he 6 certainly doesn't have a very good 7 appreciation of the area in the state of 8 New York from which I come from, or the area 9 in the state of New York which is populated by 10 our upstate senators. 11 Certainly those also that are on 12 the borders of this state know that when you 13 shop for gas and go across the line, that you 14 have a price break. And for someone who 15 drives down Route I-86 along the Pennsylvania 16 border, all I know is I have to just hop off a 17 little bit into Wilawana or some of these 18 other communities on the Pennsylvania border, 19 and guess what? What the price is is 20 reflective of the difference in the tax. And 21 it's right there in front of you. 22 So I would welcome you to take a 23 drive up that road and shop in Pennsylvania. 24 Or also, maybe if you want to hop across the 25 line into New Jersey from Manhattan, you'll

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 find that the price of gas is substantially 2 less over there because the taxes are less. 3 And they're reflective almost exactly, day to 4 day, as to the difference in the tax that is 5 levied on a gallon of gasoline from the 6 wholesale level to the retailer. 7 So if you believe at all in the 8 competitive marketplace, you'll know that if 9 you're paying less for that gallon of gas as a 10 retailer, you're going to pass it along to the 11 consumer. Because if you don't, your 12 competitors certainly will in this 13 marketplace. 14 So again, Madam President, this is 15 a great idea to help our hard-pressed 16 motorists out there in the state of New York. 17 I heartily welcome the passage of this bill 18 because it will go a long way to providing 19 some relief to those particularly who live in 20 the upstate regions who rely on their 21 automobile, not only to work but to do almost 22 anything as far as their travel needs. 23 So, Madam President, I commend 24 Senator Robach for advancing this measure. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 you, Senator Winner. 2 Senator Volker. 3 SENATOR VOLKER: Madam President, 4 I normally don't get into these esoteric 5 debates, I call them. Because the funny thing 6 about it is that, so my constituents 7 understand, I'll have no problem with 8 guaranteeing my constituents, if this bill 9 became law, that they would pay cheaper 10 amounts at the gas pump. 11 Now, I've been the first to admit 12 to you, Eric, that if you lived in Manhattan 13 that might be a different story. And part of 14 the thing here is -- and I understand that 15 you're protecting the Assembly. Because the 16 Assembly really doesn't want to do a bill that 17 decreases sales tax, because of course they 18 want to spend it on different things and so 19 forth. 20 And not that they don't want to 21 keep energy costs down, but they'd like to be 22 able to criticize the federal government, 23 because we know there is very little that this 24 house or either house can do about energy 25 costs. We had our chance years ago and let

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 the environmentalists keep us from doing 2 refineries and all that other stuff. 3 And as I always tell my 4 constituents when they ask me, they say: Is 5 there enough power in Western New York? I 6 say: We got enough power for 40, 50 years. I 7 say: We send so much power down to New York 8 City because they can't bring themselves to 9 build a refinery or a power plant or any of 10 that stuff. We send 90 percent of our power 11 down to the south. 12 But the key to this issue is I will 13 guarantee you that if this bill passes in both 14 houses, the gasoline prices will fall by the 15 amount of the sales tax. It has to. You 16 don't have to mandate it. I'll tell you one 17 guy who will be happy to tell you that is a 18 guy named Eliot Spitzer. He'll be all over 19 these gas stations if they try to fool around 20 with the gas pump prices. 21 And as a result, I can assure you 22 that the problem here is -- I know it's hard 23 for people to understand all this stuff. But, 24 Senator, in upstate New York, I'll guarantee 25 you that we and my constituents will

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 enormously benefit from this. And I wish we 2 could do this only because it's a temporary 3 kind of thing. 4 And you're right, it's not a 5 solution. Because the solution lies in 6 Washington, more than anything, and lies in an 7 intention of people to determine that we're 8 tired of allowing certain people in this 9 country, people like Ralph Nader, to make 10 decisions for us on energy that are 11 outrageous. The Clean Air Act costs us about 12 30 to 40 cents per gallon on every gallon of 13 gasoline. Now, we don't want to admit that, 14 and we talk about all this stuff. 15 Western New York has the cleanest 16 air in the whole Northeast, and yet we have to 17 put some crap in our -- excuse me -- gasoline 18 because the Clean Air Act says we have to. 19 Everybody knows it doesn't do it anything. 20 But we're supposed to put it in there. And 21 then we have to have another refinery for 22 that. 23 By the way, there's four refineries 24 still down in Louisiana, four oil refineries. 25 The last I knew, there were still four natural

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 gas refineries down, which is even worse for 2 us. So I just want to point that out. 3 I'm in favor of this bill because I 4 think it will give a temporary help to a lot 5 of my people, my constituents, and I would 6 hope -- and I think that even in Manhattan, 7 where most people don't drive, it will 8 actually have a good impact. 9 The Assembly takes the attitude, I 10 think, Well, there's a better way to do this, 11 because it will make some people, maybe the 12 Governor, look better. Well, I don't care 13 whether the Governor looks better, whether the 14 Assembly looks better, whether we look better. 15 I just want to see my constituents pay less 16 for gas. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 18 you, Senator Volker. 19 Senator Liz Krueger. 20 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you, 21 Madam President. Will the sponsor please 22 yield. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 24 you. Will the sponsor yield for a question? 25 SENATOR ROBACH: Absolutely will.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 2 you. Senator Robach yields. 3 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 4 How much per gallon would this bill 5 save us? 6 SENATOR ROBACH: Approximately 7 7 cents a gallon for those counties that did 8 not opt out of, on a gallon of gas. 9 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Madam 10 President, if the sponsor would continue to 11 yield. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 13 you. Do you continue to yield, Senator 14 Robach? 15 SENATOR ROBACH: Yes. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Yes, he 17 does. 18 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 19 What average cost per gallon are 20 you basing that 7 cents on? 21 SENATOR ROBACH: Well, actually, 22 let me take that back. 23 If gasoline went up to $3 a gallon, 24 as it had in some cases in upstate New York -- 25 I don't know about downstate New York -- even

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 went above that, that savings would be on 2 every cost over $2. Because obviously we're 3 capping it at $2. 4 So let me take that back to 5 specifically clarify where the savings would 6 come from. 7 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Madam 8 President, if the sponsor will continue to 9 yield. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 11 you. 12 SENATOR ROBACH: Sure. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: The 14 sponsor yields. 15 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: And the 16 counties that would opt out in your bill, or 17 would be allowed to, are whom? 18 SENATOR ROBACH: The way the 19 legislation is is that counties would have to 20 opt out not to give the full 7-cent rebate for 21 every additional dollar over $2. Which is 22 what we had predicated our budget reading on 23 previously, what we estimated our revenue 24 would be. 25 Perhaps part of the reason why we

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 have the windfall in the state may have come 2 from, ironically, the spike in gas. So not 3 only are the oil companies making a lot of 4 money, perhaps New York State benefited from 5 that -- I think which is the point of our 6 bill -- at the cost of the taxpayers, which we 7 like to give some of that money back to them 8 or minimally at least ensure we're not 9 continuing to take that from them as outgoing 10 policy, as outgoing energy and taxation 11 policy. 12 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Madam 13 President, if the sponsor would continue to 14 yield. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 16 you. Senator Robach, do you continue to 17 yield? 18 SENATOR ROBACH: I do. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: The 20 Senator yields. 21 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Since 22 there's been so much dialogue already on the 23 floor today about the fact that this isn't 24 actually a rebate to the consumer but, rather, 25 a reduction in taxes above a certain dollar

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 amount, in a formula between wholesalers and 2 retailers -- and there does seem to be 3 disagreement on the floor as to whether or not 4 consumers would ever see this, because it 5 would in fact be within the decision-making of 6 the oil wholesalers and perhaps even 7 manufacturers that would determine that, not 8 the actual individual gas station negotiating 9 a lower price with the consumer -- since we 10 seem to have disagreement about that, and yet 11 earlier today we were told that the best way 12 to help homeowners with their heating costs 13 was a direct rebate check from the State 14 Department of Finance, why wouldn't you 15 approach this problem by offering a rebate or 16 a credit directly to the consumers, a la the 17 proposal of Senator Spano for home heating? 18 Why not go that road if the real 19 concern is -- or one of the real concerns on 20 this floor is will consumers ever see that 21 money. 22 SENATOR ROBACH: Well, there's a 23 number of ways I could answer that. 24 Home heating oil doesn't have a 25 tax. So there is no tax to take off.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Secondly, we also don't know who 2 those consumers and consumption or what level 3 it is. I think this is a very fair way to 4 help everybody in the system. 5 And again, if this is the goal. I 6 think this is really what we disagree on. I 7 am desperate to help my constituents have more 8 money in their pocket. And ironically, not to 9 digress, Eric Schneiderman and I may have 10 similar districts, or at least an interest. I 11 represent a lot of the lower-income people 12 also. And I can assure you, from their 13 mouths, not mine, every cent they have in 14 their pocket is important to them. 15 This clearly, while you may not 16 like the mechanism, it's called free 17 enterprise. Just like when we did clothing 18 tax and everything else, whatever consumers 19 out there -- and if they're going to lower 20 their price of gasoline, and I believe at 21 least some of them, if not all of them, will 22 initially; the rest will follow suit to be 23 competitive. 24 The bottom line is it will put more 25 money or at least give the opportunity for

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 people to save money at the pump. I think 2 that is something we all agree on. 3 So we're here with this bill, and I 4 would guess I'd turn it around and ask you 5 what you could do in the other house to get 6 something passed so we're not here in this 7 rhetorical quagmire of once again delivering 8 nothing to the constituents. That's what I'm 9 concerned about. 10 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 11 Madam President, on the bill. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 13 you. Senator Krueger, on the bill. 14 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 15 I appreciate my colleague's 16 responses to my questions. 17 I'm not sure I agree on the 7 cents 18 question, although you did clarify it, because 19 I think the average cost now is about $2.50 a 20 gallon statewide, although obviously we need 21 to do a comparison. It's certainly much 22 higher in my district. But I only have, 23 shockingly, one gas station in my district. 24 So I think it would probably be closer to 25 4 cents a gallon.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 And I accept the challenge of many 2 colleagues here, what are we going to do about 3 this. And I would argue there are many things 4 we could do about this, but this is still the 5 wrong way to go, even in concern for our 6 constituents. 7 One, you mentioned Senator 8 Schneiderman and you both have lower-income 9 constituents. The trick about sales taxes in 10 general is it's not a really good way to 11 address progressive or regressive taxation. 12 This isn't a bill that will be more relevant 13 for people based on their having lower income. 14 One might even argue that there's a 15 correlation of the more you drive, probably 16 the higher your income, particularly because 17 automobiles, auto insurance and of course now 18 gasoline are so incredibly expensive. So it's 19 not really the right model in tax policy for 20 trying to address the problems of lower-income 21 New Yorkers. 22 It also risks the problem of not 23 addressing the real problem -- and I agree we 24 all think there's a real problem -- because 25 lowering taxes on petroleum products

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 statistically has been shown to not discourage 2 use of petroleum products but, in many cases, 3 actually encourage the continued use of 4 petroleum products. Which most of us, I 5 think, think is bad public policy in the state 6 of New York and the country. It continues our 7 dependence on foreign oil. It continues our 8 usage of polluting products. 9 And Senator Volker blamed or 10 credited Ralph Nader for the Clean Air Act. 11 I'm not sure what the reality there is of 12 Mr. Nader's role in the Clean Air Act. But 13 speaking for, I think, most of the people of 14 the state, the country, and the world, we 15 really need cleaner air. It's really not 16 clean enough. We have a global warming 17 problem which is making Albany in January more 18 delightful than usual, but in general is 19 actually bad for us all. 20 And so continuing use of petroleum 21 products and negating the need for regulation 22 of clean air and a clean environment isn't 23 really going to get us to our solutions 24 either. 25 And unfortunately, I don't think

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 this bill will. I don't believe there is any 2 way, despite my colleague Senator Winner's 3 analysis, that of course they will lower their 4 prices. I don't think there's any evidence 5 that passing this bill translates to the 6 entire oil/gas international conglomerate 7 model of pricing that it's going to lower the 8 price for consumers. And that there's so much 9 better we could be doing, not pushing our 10 colleagues in the other house to pass this -- 11 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Excuse 12 me, Senator Krueger. 13 Senator Robach, why do you rise? 14 SENATOR ROBACH: Senator Krueger, 15 would you just yield for a question? 16 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Oh, yes, 17 absolutely. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Senator 19 Krueger, do you yield? 20 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Absolutely. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: She 22 yields. 23 SENATOR ROBACH: Do you think 24 lowering or removing the tax on clothing 25 helped the consumers in New York?

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: I think 2 lowering the sales tax on clothing below $110, 3 which I believe is the actual proposal you're 4 referencing, encourages people to buy clothing 5 under $110. 6 SENATOR ROBACH: So why do you 7 think that this wouldn't help people who 8 are -- because we don't know who they are. 9 Though I would dis -- not disagree, I would 10 say depending on where you live, how important 11 your mode of transportation is or what options 12 you have for transportation. 13 Certainly rural low-income people 14 don't have the option of mass transit as we do 15 in some of our larger cities. They do have to 16 rely on that. Why do you think that wouldn't 17 apply or help them? 18 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Well, 19 again, I think the way you asked the question, 20 all right, would lowering the sales tax on 21 clothing encourage people to buy clothing 22 below $110, I think you and I would both agree 23 yes. 24 And so I will answer your question 25 with a reverse question. Do we want to,

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 quote, unquote, encourage people to use more 2 petroleum gas products? 3 SENATOR ROBACH: You know what, 4 I'm on the topic of what it costs. I probably 5 don't disagree with you on energy policy or 6 other stuff. But I think we're sticking our 7 head in the sands if you don't think that 8 people need to drive a certain amount to get 9 to their place of work, to get their kids to 10 where they need to go. And that certainly 11 really is a very vital thing for my 12 constituents. 13 I don't try to judge other people's 14 districts. But I can tell you in mine, and I 15 know a lot of other people's districts around 16 here, it is in theirs. Since we cannot 17 dictate the cost of gasoline by law -- that 18 would be unconstitutional -- I would still ask 19 you to look at, knowing that this will help 20 them -- because I don't think the way you're 21 suggesting it would really -- is pragmatic. 22 You're saying we should try to do a rebate 23 check to people who might not even own a car. 24 I would ask you to say let's look 25 at what we're really at and what we could do

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 today, and then worry about energy consumption 2 and these larger issues that are critically 3 important at another time so we can get 4 something done this session, this time, right 5 now. 6 And maybe even work -- or even if 7 we can get the Assembly to pass something, I'd 8 be willing to go to a conference committee on 9 it and talk about it. But let's do something 10 like we did on clothes, how's that. 11 Thank you. 12 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Madam 13 President, thank you. 14 To continue on the bill, I 15 appreciate the Senator's analysis. I think 16 the debate I'm trying to have is tax policy 17 and what the use of tax policy is. 18 Because no, I wouldn't -- I'm 19 sorry, just to clarify, no, I wasn't 20 suggesting a rebate even if you don't use a 21 car to pay for gas, just to clarify, a la the 22 proposal before that, you would only receive 23 this if you actually had the expenses in 24 heating. 25 But what I'm trying to say is there

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 are lot of ways we can go down the road of 2 changing our tax policies to help New Yorkers 3 or, one could argue, to hurt New Yorkers. 4 This bill takes $200 million out of the 5 budget. I ask you -- although I won't, since 6 I didn't ask the sponsor to yield to more 7 questions -- but I rhetorically ask all of us, 8 what are we cutting out of the budget with the 9 loss of that $200 million? That's a realistic 10 question for us as legislators every time we 11 make a change in tax policy, every time we 12 give a tax cut or a credit or exemption. 13 And if you're asking a question 14 about what's in the best interests of 15 New Yorkers -- and I do not accept that this 16 is a downstate/upstate fight or an argument 17 over vehicles. We all recognize that at this 18 point in history, until we solve the problem 19 of being so dependent on petroleum products, 20 that most of the people driving most of the 21 cars will be using mostly oil to fill their 22 gas tanks. 23 I'm saying that this Legislature 24 and I agree. Both houses should come 25 together, we should have an ongoing conference

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 committee, one on energy policy -- I totally 2 support that. Another Senator suggested that 3 earlier. It shouldn't be unique to any bill. 4 We should have an ongoing conference committee 5 between the two houses on energy policy. But 6 I would challenge you, because your bill is a 7 tax bill, we should have an ongoing conference 8 committee on tax policies and on tax credits 9 and exemptions. 10 Because I just said this bill, you 11 say, will cost us $200 million. If you lack 12 at our full tax expenditure/tax credit budget, 13 right now in this year we're going to spend 14 $28 billion in tax credits and exemptions, 15 with a B. And that means that's $28 billion 16 we're not collecting for other things. 17 And that forces to us make the 18 kinds of decisions we have to make when we say 19 are we going to cut a sales tax on clothing, 20 are we going to cut a sales tax on oil, how 21 much money do we give up from the coffers of 22 our tax finance and revenue department when we 23 make these decisions, and who is making them. 24 And we shouldn't make them in a vacuum. We 25 shouldn't make them one at a time, as this

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 bill proposes. 2 So I vote against this bill both 3 because I don't think it's good energy policy, 4 I also vote against this bill because I don't 5 think it's good tax policy. But I completely 6 agree that both houses and the Governor could 7 sit down on energy policy and on tax policy 8 and accomplish a great deal for all of our 9 constituents in this session. 10 Thank you. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 12 you, Senator Krueger. 13 SENATOR ROBACH: May I ask just 14 one more question? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Senator 16 Robach. 17 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Absolutely. 18 SENATOR ROBACH: I listened 19 intently -- 20 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Senator 21 Krueger, do you yield to Senator Robach? 22 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Oh, yes, I 23 do, Madam President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: The 25 Senator yields.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR ROBACH: I think if I 2 heard you correctly, then, your tax policy is 3 you feel that we don't tax enough in New York? 4 Is that what you're saying why you're opposed 5 to taking this tax off the gas tax? 6 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: No, I 7 certainly didn't say that. 8 SENATOR ROBACH: Oh, okay, I'm 9 sorry, I thought that's what -- 10 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: I said that 11 every time we pass a bill that reduces taxes, 12 we take revenue out of the budget; this bill, 13 $200 million. We ought to be answering the 14 question at the same time what won't we fund 15 instead because we don't have that 16 $200 million. 17 And I say that we should look at 18 tax policy from the broader perspective of 19 what is our entire tax policy, who are we 20 taxying, who are we not, what are those tax 21 exemptions and credits that we're not 22 collecting to the tune of $28 billion, and 23 let's put those all on the table and have a 24 rational discussion. 25 SENATOR ROBACH: -- because I

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 would just point out that you understand that 2 this also, we've never estimated the gas 3 revenue side ever anticipating it going above 4 $3 a gallon. Really not even above $2 a 5 gallon, that was the rate. So in this 6 particular case I would say we're not taking 7 anything out of the coffers. 8 But on tax policy, certainly 9 there's critical things we have to fund -- 10 education, economic development, public 11 safety, healthcare. But I think we are kind 12 of saying this, I guess as a group over here, 13 we think the tax policy's been pretty 14 intensive for kind of the overburdened average 15 New Yorker. This is one little thing we want 16 to give them back which was a windfall to us. 17 Hopefully you see it the same way. 18 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you, 19 Madam President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 21 you. Thank you, Senator Krueger. 22 Senator Parker. 23 SENATOR PARKER: Madam President, 24 on the bill. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 you. Senator Parker, on the bill. 2 SENATOR PARKER: Colleagues, we 3 could do better. And I really -- I share, 4 Senator Robach, your desperation over wanting 5 to help your constituents. But as Senator 6 Volker said, this is not a solution to the 7 problem that we're trying to face. 8 I drive a car too. I represent a 9 district where the vast majority of the people 10 in my district, you know, live in one- or 11 two-family homes. Many, many, many, many of 12 them -- probably, from our estimation, too 13 many of them -- own their own cars. You know, 14 in a family of four there's probably three 15 cars in my district per family of four. 16 So that being said is that I, like 17 you, have been hearing the cries of my 18 constituents who have been desperate to get 19 some relief on energy issues. 20 But again, this is not an answer. 21 Once again, here we are with a short-term 22 solution to a long-term problem. I mean, we 23 learned, as we looked at what has happened 24 over time with energy prices, that they're 25 going to go up, because we continue to use and

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 rely on fossil fuels. We continue to, in this 2 state, not have an energy policy. 3 So we can sit around and we can 4 bemoan and critique the federal government -- 5 which is run by Republicans, I believe -- but 6 we have no federal policy right now. And so, 7 you know, what are we going to do in this 8 state when we also don't have a state policy. 9 So, you know, it's better, I know, 10 for some people to curse the darkness as 11 opposed to trying to light a match. This, 12 unfortunately, is not that match. This, 13 unfortunately, does not provide light to the 14 situation because it's again a short-term 15 solution to a long-term problem. And we can 16 do better. 17 When we start talking about 18 partnerships and critiquing, you know, the way 19 in which the process happens around here, if 20 you want to start with partnerships, forget 21 partnerships between this body and the 22 Assembly, let's talk partnerships between that 23 side of the aisle and this side of the aisle. 24 You know, we have conversations 25 here all of the time where no one ever pays

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 attention to what we say. Let's have some 2 real conversation. Let's have a -- here's an 3 idea. Let's have a conference committee in 4 the Senate. How about that? 5 How about, you know, instead of 6 getting up -- if you don't want to have a 7 three-hour debate about something, then, I 8 don't know, let's do something novel and let's 9 really have committee meetings that in fact 10 work actually happens in the committee, where 11 people actually have an opportunity to debate 12 bills and to make policy recommendations on 13 bills before they come to the floor. All 14 right? 15 And we can do a working committee. 16 I'm committed to that, and I think my 17 colleagues are. So let's try that before we 18 start going out and pointing fingers about 19 partnerships. 20 The only thing, frankly, that stops 21 anything in Albany from getting done is will. 22 Simple will. And, colleagues, we can do 23 better. We develop the will to say we're 24 going to do something about energy policy, 25 we'll do it. If we don't, we won't do it.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Just like last year we developed the will, all 2 of a sudden, after 21 years, to do an on-time 3 budget, and it happened. And if we have the 4 will again, it will happen again. 5 So to say it's not going to happen 6 because of this side or that side -- you know, 7 it's not about pointing fingers. We shouldn't 8 be trying to assign blame, we should be trying 9 to develop solutions. And I think that we 10 haven't kind of gone there to this point. 11 The sales tax that we're trying to 12 get rid of I think frankly doesn't do the job 13 and goes far enough. But I'm glad you brought 14 up the issue of the sales tax on clothes, 15 because I think that you're comparing, Senator 16 Robach, apples and oranges. 17 When you look at the clothing sales 18 tax versus the sales tax here, in this 19 particular case you're talking about giving 20 money -- and frankly, when you look at the 21 7 cents that you may be talking about per 22 gallon, it's a minuscule amount of money, 23 folks. This is not significant amounts of 24 money. This is not hundreds of dollars, this 25 is not even tens of dollars that you're giving

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 to people per purchase. 2 So let's -- but let's not pretend 3 that we're trying to, you know, throw dollars 4 back into the hands of people. When you're 5 looking at what we ought to be doing, and not 6 what we are doing, what we ought to be doing 7 around sales tax on items that are $110 or 8 less, what we're trying to do is not just put 9 money back into, you know, the poorest 10 New Yorkers' hands, but we're also trying to 11 equalize the playing field and create more 12 opportunities for our retailers to compete 13 with the markets in Jersey and Connecticut, 14 which oftentimes have either no or lower sales 15 tax on those kind of items. 16 And so being that, you know, we're 17 so happy about giving taxes back, I really 18 hope that people around budget time will 19 oppose your Governor's attempts to, for a 20 third year, break the promise of giving people 21 back the money that they promised to give them 22 on the sales tax of $110, because that's 23 currently not in his budget proposal. You 24 know, we could do better on sales tax if you 25 really want to start doing things to give back

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 stuff to people. 2 I wanted to address the issue that 3 Senator Winner raised about gas prices and why 4 gas prices are cheaper in Pennsylvania than 5 they are here. And it's a good point, but 6 sales taxes is not nearly the only thing. 7 There's really -- you know, the 8 price of fuel is very, very complex, and it 9 changes state to state based on a number of 10 things, taxes just being one of them. Some of 11 them have to do the policies that we as a 12 Legislature set in terms of what kind of 13 additives and preservatives and whatever 14 things go into gas. Those things also have a 15 significant impact on pricing. And so in 16 fact, you know, forgoing these taxes may in 17 fact not give you the tax break that you 18 expect and still have people going across the 19 line. 20 I frankly don't -- I frankly don't 21 think that people in -- 22 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 23 you. Senator Winner, why do you rise? 24 SENATOR WINNER: Will Senator 25 Parker yield for a question?

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 2 you. Senator Parker, will you yield for a 3 question? 4 SENATOR PARKER: I will yield 5 when I'm finished, if that's okay. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 7 you. The Senator wishes to conclude his 8 remarks first. 9 SENATOR PARKER: I frankly don't 10 understand why we care whether somebody goes 11 to a Mobil station in New York State as 12 opposed to Pennsylvania, because frankly the 13 amount of traffic that's going to proceed over 14 the border is not going to affect, you know, 15 business in any kind of significant way. 16 And like I said, because of the 17 amount of this transaction is so minuscule 18 that people are not going to find a 19 significant savings to keep them on this side 20 of the aisle. So, you know, we can do better 21 as we look to get that done. 22 So let's talk about some solutions 23 for a second. And I think that, you know, 24 nothing is guaranteed. But certainly we ought 25 to understand the way in which these things

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 happen. Right now there is no effective way 2 in which we monitor gas prices. So right now, 3 you know, you can point to the Attorney 4 General and say, Well, you know, he should do 5 this and they should do that. But the reality 6 is is that right now we have not provided for 7 any division to go around and monitor where 8 prices are going. 9 And so we would have to, you 10 know -- you know, and if you want to put some 11 more money in the budget for the Attorney 12 General's office to develop an office of fuel 13 enforcement, then let's have that conversation 14 and let's figure out if that's worth doing. 15 But right now it's not being done. 16 So to say that the federal 17 government or the state government is doing 18 it, right now no one is doing it. No one is 19 systematically sampling, either randomly or in 20 totality, gas stations and making sure that 21 they are in fact providing the prices that 22 they should be doing. 23 And I frankly don't even think that 24 the Consumer Protection Board, as good as they 25 are here in the State of New York, I'm not

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 even sure that they do it with any kind of 2 regularity. 3 We could do better. We could do 4 much better as it relates to making sure that 5 enforcement happens and that when we in fact 6 are handing down tax relief that those tax 7 reliefs are actually getting to the people 8 that we intend those tax reliefs to go for. 9 I want to conclude really on some 10 solutions, because I really think that this 11 debate is not about where we differ, Senator. 12 I think this is about where we want to be 13 helpful. And I'll say what I said before, is 14 I'm as desperate as you are to provide some 15 relief to consumers on this issue because I 16 think that it's important. 17 But if we're going to look for 18 where to get the best bang for our dollars, 19 where we can create a significant economy of 20 scale in fact to put dollars into such that we 21 create relief for folks, the answer is public 22 transportation. The answer is that when you 23 put dollars into public transportation -- and 24 I think that one of our major failures as a 25 state government is not to provide the proper

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 types of public transportation in some of the 2 suburban and rural areas. 3 So let's take the $200 million that 4 looks to be a windfall, and let's take that 5 $200 million and let's invest that. Instead 6 of spending it, let's invest that back into 7 public transportation and let's provide a way 8 for your constituents, for the constituents 9 around the state and the people around the 10 state who are looking to get to work and get 11 to their family's house and go shopping and do 12 other things, for them to be able to do that 13 in a way that both saves them money -- because 14 we understand that public transportation is 15 significantly cheaper than people driving 16 their own cars. 17 And so if you want to look for a 18 real savings for your constituents, public 19 transportation is the answer. 20 I look forward to us working 21 together in these conference committees 22 between your side of the aisle and this side 23 of the aisle. 24 And if Senator Winner has a 25 question, I'll be happy to take it.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 2 you. 3 The noise level is at point where 4 it's difficult to hear. If we could keep it 5 down, please. 6 Senator Winner. 7 SENATOR WINNER: Senator Parker, 8 I appreciate your thoughts on gasoline prices 9 and the fact that you're trying to distinguish 10 the state of Pennsylvania for other reasons 11 other than I believe are the facts. 12 Here's the state of facts. I mean, 13 I live on the border of Pennsylvania and I 14 have a very good familiarity with a wholesale 15 dealer who owns a bunch of gas stations in 16 New York and owns a bunch of gas stations in 17 Pennsylvania. He's got the same truck. He 18 takes the gas over to Chemung, New York, and 19 fills up the tanks over there, and they have a 20 certain price per gallon. Then he takes the 21 same truck and drives a little ways away to 22 Wilawana and Sayer and Athens, Pennsylvania, 23 some other places that are just, you know, 24 within a mile or so of the other gas station. 25 And you know the difference in the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 price? The difference in the price is the 2 sales tax. And that's exactly what he tells 3 me. 4 So I beg to differ with you when 5 you try to make these pronouncements about 6 gasoline pricing policies based upon no 7 experience. I have the experience of knowing 8 and seeing and watching and driving down that 9 particular area day in and day out, and that's 10 the difference in the price. 11 So if you take the sales tax off, 12 the difference between you and me and this 13 side of the aisle and that side of the aisle 14 is that we want to reduce the price of 15 gasoline. You don't want to reduce the price 16 of gasoline. I want to reduce the price of 17 gasoline. And one way I know it's going to 18 get reduced is to reduce the sales tax. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 20 you, Senator Winner. 21 Senator Nozzolio. 22 SENATOR PARKER: Wasn't that a 23 question? 24 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Will Senator 25 Parker --

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR PARKER: I thought there 2 was a question. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: There 4 was a question, excuse me. 5 SENATOR PARKER: I'm not sure 6 there was a question there, but let me respond 7 to what I thought the question was, was -- and 8 I'm guessing you're questioning whether I have 9 experience in this or not. 10 I guess I drive a car like 11 everybody else does. I didn't know that you 12 were actually a gas owner. So unless you told 13 me that you personally owned a gas station 14 yourself and you were delivering it, I mean -- 15 SENATOR WINNER: I'm familiar 16 with someone who owns a gas station. 17 SENATOR PARKER: And so am I. 18 And we can talk about our 19 experiences all the time. I'm the ranker on 20 the Energy and Telecommunications Committee. 21 I have actually gone places and talked to 22 people about it. I've attended national 23 conferences on this very subject to talk to 24 people exactly about how this stuff gets done. 25 Let me say this. This is not a

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 matter of about whether that side of the aisle 2 wants to reduce gas prices and whether we do 3 or not. This is about how best to get that 4 done. 5 I think we all agree that we would 6 like to see more money in the hands of our 7 constituents. And on that we don't disagree. 8 I think where we disagree at is how to do 9 that. 10 And I am not disagreeing with 11 Senator Robach's attempt to do that. I'm 12 arguing that this particular method is not the 13 best method. We can do better. And I think 14 we can do better by having a comprehensive 15 energy policy for this state. I think we can 16 do better by investing money into public 17 transportation. I think we can do better by 18 stop lying to ourselves and lying to the 19 public, quite frankly, about how much money 20 we're going to save them with these minuscule 21 investments or tax relief that we're 22 proposing. 23 So this is not a matter of us not 24 wanting to do it. It's a matter about this 25 not being the proper tool. And whenever you

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 get serious about wanting to talk about the 2 proper tools, I'm more than happy -- my 3 extension is 2580. Anybody here can give me a 4 call and I'm happy to meet with them at any 5 time to make sure that it gets done. 6 SENATOR WINNER: Will Senator 7 Parker yield for a question? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 9 you. Senator Parker -- 10 SENATOR PARKER: Absolutely. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Senator 12 Parker yields. 13 SENATOR WINNER: Senator Parker, 14 is it your statement on the floor that I'm 15 lying to you when I suggest that Senator 16 Robach's bill will reduce the price of 17 gasoline by the amount of the sales tax that 18 will no longer be charged? Are you suggesting 19 that I'm lying to you? 20 SENATOR PARKER: No, I'm 21 suggesting that it is insincere and that there 22 is an overestimation of how important this 23 tax, you know, rebate is going to be in terms 24 of people's day-to-day spending habits. 25 SENATOR WINNER: So you're not

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 suggesting that I'm lying, we're lying to you. 2 SENATOR PARKER: I'm suggesting 3 that there's an overestimation and that this 4 is not the best way. We can do better. And 5 that's what I've said continuously. 6 SENATOR WINNER: But you do agree 7 that this will lower the price of gasoline? 8 SENATOR PARKER: I agree that 9 this is an attempt to do that. I don't 10 actually agree that this is going to in fact 11 lower the price of gasoline and that's going 12 to make a difference. 13 See, lowering the price of 14 gasoline, when you say a generalization like 15 that, yeah, but you may lower it by one cent. 16 And at the end of the day, if I'm making a 17 transaction -- 18 SENATOR WINNER: Senator Parker. 19 SENATOR PARKER: -- and it costs 20 me -- 21 SENATOR WINNER: Senator -- 22 SENATOR PARKER: You asked me a 23 question. And if it costs me -- 24 SENATOR WINNER: Senator, would 25 you --

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 2 you. We need order. Order. 3 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: I request 4 that we go through the chair. 5 I appreciate the emotion in this 6 debate, but let's try and follow procedure and 7 rules, and we can get answers to all sincerely 8 and passionately held questions. Thank you. 9 SENATOR WINNER: Madam President, 10 I asked -- 11 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Just a 12 moment, please. 13 I would ask both Senator Winner and 14 Senator Parker, please address your questions 15 through the chair. 16 SENATOR PARKER: Yes, ma'am. 17 SENATOR WINNER: Will Senator 18 Parker yield? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Senator 20 Parker, do you yield? 21 SENATOR PARKER: Yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Senator 23 Parker yields. 24 SENATOR WINNER: Senator, you 25 said you don't necessarily agree that lowering

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 the sales tax on gasoline will lower the 2 price. Now, would you agree that raising the 3 sales tax would raise the price? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Senator 5 Parker. 6 SENATOR PARKER: Madam President, 7 through you, this is a matter -- this whole 8 matter is not about whether it actually lowers 9 it, it's whether it's effective or not. 10 It may raise it -- raising it in 11 general terms, yes, will raise it. Lowering 12 it, yes, will lower it. The question is how 13 much. And it's insincere to stand here and 14 talk about this like it's significant. It's 15 not a significant savings, Madam President. 16 That in fact, if we do this on a 17 transaction that may cost you $40 or $50 -- it 18 costs me $50 to fill up my vehicle from E. On 19 that transaction, even if I save 7 cents, over 20 the cost of the transaction it's less than a 21 dollar that I'm saving. 22 I'm not clear that that 23 less-than-a-dollar savings is enough savings 24 for us to give up over $200 million worth of 25 tax revenue. A better bang for the buck would

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 be to invest in public transportation. 2 A better way to do this is for us, 3 as a state legislature and as a state 4 government, to work together to get a 5 comprehensive energy policy for this state. 6 We can do better. And that's what I maintain. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 8 you. 9 Senator Winner. 10 SENATOR WINNER: Thank you, Madam 11 President, for the coherent discussion of 12 gasoline pricing in the state of New York. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 14 you, Senator Winner. 15 Senator Nozzolio. 16 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 17 Madam President. On the bill. 18 Madam President and my colleagues, 19 I thank Senator Robach for putting forth this 20 bill. It's saying very clearly that we do not 21 want one penny more of taxation on our already 22 overburdened taxpayers. Simple as that. 23 We do not believe, those of us who 24 support this legislation, that our taxpayers 25 can afford to pay more in sales tax because of

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 international policies driving up the price of 2 oil. Simply stated, that's what Senator 3 Robach's bill does. 4 I did not intend to speak on this 5 measure. But after hearing the dialogue from 6 the other side of the aisle, I could not sit. 7 Because what I heard was answers to Senator 8 Robach's solution. He never intended it to be 9 a total solution. 10 But I heard Senator Krueger say my 11 constituents, that's all they have to do, is 12 drive less and conserve more. And Senator 13 Parker said that that's all my constituents 14 have to do, is have more public 15 transportation. 16 I think, with all due respect to my 17 colleagues, they need to get out more. They 18 need to come upstate. I guess that's your 19 answer for helping the upstate economy: Drive 20 less, get more buses. Frankly -- Senator 21 Krueger is, I know, from Manhattan Island. 22 You could put all of Manhattan Island in the 23 center of the smallest county of my district. 24 It takes at least 7, 8 miles for some people 25 one way to travel to get a gallon of milk or a

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 loaf of bread. It takes many of my 2 constituents at least a 60-, 70-mile round 3 trip to go to work. You tell the lady in my 4 district that has to pick up her children at 5 daycare, a 20-mile round trip, that she should 6 drive less. 7 I think that what you're suggesting 8 may make sense in Manhattan. You've got 9 public transportation that parenthetically, I 10 should add, is supported by the sales tax 11 revenue from my constituents who are forced to 12 drive more. Your buses, your subways are 13 second to none. And that's the way it should 14 be, because there are subways and buses of our 15 state. But the fact of the matter is they're 16 subsidized, in large part, by upstate 17 taxpayers who have to drive very far to and 18 from work, to and from school, to and from 19 grocery shopping, to and from daycare. 20 Senator Robach's bill says, simply, 21 we want to help that burden. If you want to 22 design comprehensive energy policy, I welcome 23 you. We need that. We need it -- but it's a 24 question, I think, not just for the state 25 legislature but for the national legislature.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 These are national and international issues. 2 What Senator Robach is trying to do 3 is all he can do to stop the already 4 tremendous crush of tax burden and cost burden 5 to our upstate taxpayers and, in this case, 6 our upstate motorists. And I think it's so 7 naive for you to suggest that we drive less. 8 Because, frankly, we don't have jobs. We need 9 more jobs. We have to drive a long way to and 10 from work, to and from commerce. 11 I think that this bill is the right 12 bill at the right time. We need to reduce 13 this burden. 14 Senator Robach, thank you for 15 proffering it. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 17 you, Senator Nozzolio. 18 Senator Padavan. 19 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you, 20 Madam President. 21 I'm sure everybody in this chamber 22 is familiar with the FOMC, the national body 23 that periodically meets and determines 24 monetary policy for this nation. They're 25 meeting today, as I believe. All of the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 measures of that group are economists in the 2 main, as is its chairman, Mr. Greenspan. 3 We've heard time and time again 4 these national leaders in our economy telling 5 us that energy costs and the rise in these 6 costs is a tax on the people in this nation. 7 A tax. And that tax has reduced their ability 8 to be consumers of other goods and services. 9 And the net result on the economy is a 10 negative. 11 Now, all of the bills we've dealt 12 with today, including this one, have one 13 primary purpose, and that is to reduce the 14 magnitude of that tax. We can't set national 15 monetary policy or national energy policy. 16 But we can deal with a tax. 17 I also suggest to some of other 18 colleagues over there that we can also walk 19 and chew gum. Meaning that we can not only do 20 this, but we can also advance transportation 21 initiatives that increase the number of people 22 getting on trains and buses and out of their 23 cars. As a matter of fact, we did that 24 recently with our proposals dealing with the 25 Amtrak and other trains from New York all the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 way to Buffalo up to Albany, getting more 2 people out of their cars into trains. 3 We could also do it by getting more 4 goods off of trucks and onto railcars. And 5 there are proposals to do that. And we should 6 encourage that. So we agree. 7 But the issue here is very, very 8 direct. It's been said here time and time 9 again, we are reducing the economic burden on 10 the riders, the consumers of energy. Whether 11 it's home heating fuel with Senator Golden's 12 bill or drivers in their automobiles with this 13 bill, we are reducing that burden. And no one 14 should object to that. 15 If there are subtleties in the 16 approach, let's resolve them. You talk about 17 setting up dialogue with the other house. 18 Fine, that's great. Let's do it. But let 19 them pass some bills so we can do it together 20 and we can make some sense out of all of this. 21 Thank you, Madam President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 23 you, Senator Padavan. 24 Senator Liz Krueger. 25 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 On the bill and in response. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 3 you. On the bill, Senator Krueger. 4 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 5 I appreciate Senator Padavan's 6 comments we can walk and chew gum and take 7 deep breaths. And now that we are televised, 8 we can also go to the tape. 9 So in response to the comments that 10 I was told I made a few minutes ago, anyone 11 who wants to rerun the comments, I did not 12 criticize the people of upstate New York for 13 needing to use their vehicles more than those 14 of us who live in areas with public 15 transportation. I said if you want to address 16 the problems of people who have to use their 17 vehicles, this isn't the right answer. 18 The right answer is to figure out 19 how they can be less dependent on 20 petroleum-driven vehicles. The answer in tax 21 policy is to ask where are the tax burdens 22 falling most unfairly and what can we in the 23 New York State Legislature do to make a more 24 fair and progressive tax system. Which 25 requires evaluating our tax policies, not

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 doing one-house, one-sales-tax bills at a 2 time. 3 And in technical fact, while it is 4 true that New York City residents use public 5 transportation more than the rest of the 6 state -- I appreciate Senator Parker's 7 arguments and in fact Senator Padavan's 8 reconfirmation of that, that we should be 9 doing more to expand our public transportation 10 options throughout the state of New York, in 11 suburban New York, in rural New York, and in 12 urban New York -- that in fact the subsidies 13 for public transportation are not 14 disproportionately carried by upstate 15 New Yorkers. 16 But in fact, when you look at the 17 budget and you look at the distribution of tax 18 revenue to public transportation and highways 19 and roads, in fact it is just the opposite. 20 There is disproportionately less of a 21 supplement or a subsidy to urban public 22 transportation users than to the rest of 23 New Yorkers. 24 So I am delighted we are having 25 this debate. I am delighted that now the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 entire state can turn on their televisions and 2 watch these debates and weigh in with their 3 own views. I think it will make us a better 4 government. 5 And I agree with everyone who said 6 let's go to conference committees and let's 7 figure out the big-picture problems, rather 8 than spending our time on one-house small 9 bills that won't accomplish our larger goals. 10 Again, I'll be voting no. 11 Thank you, Madam President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 13 you, Senator Krueger. 14 Are there any other Senators 15 wishing to be heard? 16 Senator Wright. 17 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you, Madam 18 President. 19 I want to commend Senator Robach 20 for his leadership. 21 What we're talking about is simply 22 a tax that is too high and every time the gas 23 price goes up, the tax goes up. Simple. 24 We're here to cut taxes. That's the 25 objective. And every time we cut that

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 gasoline sales tax, whether it's state or 2 local, we reduce the cost per gallon to every 3 individual in this state, every business in 4 this state. Everyone who pays that tax 5 benefits, period. That's all we need to be 6 focused on. 7 It is part of a comprehensive 8 energy solution. But without a comprehensive 9 energy solution, reducing the gasoline tax 10 still has merit. And we are fully prepared to 11 negotiate with the Assembly. We are fully 12 prepared, as we did back in September when 13 this idea was advanced and we advanced the 14 senior heat bill. That led to the Assembly 15 acting and providing us with a HEAP proposal 16 that ended up with a compromise and us last 17 week providing a hundred million dollars of 18 assistance to the people of this state. 19 This is the same approach. We're 20 fully prepared to negotiate. We're fully 21 prepared to consider an alternative, but we 22 haven't had one advanced. In the meantime, 23 we're not going to just sit here and do 24 nothing. And that's what the alternatives I'm 25 hearing are being advanced: Let's study,

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 let's evaluate, let's analyze, let's delay 2 further and maybe the prices will go down and 3 we won't have to worry about cutting the 4 taxes. 5 Well, that time is now. We should 6 stand up, cut the taxes to the people of this 7 state so they will have that direct benefit. 8 It's a relatively simple equation. We stand 9 up, we say, yes, we reduce taxes, the people 10 of this state benefit. I don't understand how 11 you can disagree with that proposal. 12 Thank you, Madam Chairman. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 14 you, Senator Wright. 15 Senator Schneiderman. 16 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you, 17 Madam President. Very briefly; I realize 18 people want to get out of town. 19 I think it is quite healthy for us 20 to actually have a debate on energy issues, to 21 the extent we're not degenerating into 22 personal recriminations or geographic or other 23 sorts of divisiveness. 24 I would suggest the following. 25 Everyone's constituents feel they pay too much

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 for taxes. There is no question we want to 2 reduce taxes. There's no question our energy 3 costs are too high. Let's all settle down and 4 try and come up with something better than 5 simply passing the same bills over and over 6 again. 7 Senator Volker suggested, which I 8 gather on the other side of the aisle is 9 considered one of the most -- you know, it's 10 those offenses you have duels over, that I'm 11 covering for the Assembly. Well, I'm not 12 covering for the Assembly. 13 Ladies and gentlemen, I think 14 you're covering for the Assembly if you think 15 this whole system of us passing a bunch of 16 one-house bills and pointing the finger at 17 them and them passing one-house bills and 18 pointing the finger at us is working with the 19 voters. It's not. They're on to the game. 20 They want results. 21 And with all due respect, 22 everyone's in favor of reducing taxes. You 23 know what doesn't reduce taxes? If we cut 24 taxes in one area but, as we have found a way 25 to do every year in the budget since I've been

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 here, miraculously we raise them in other 2 areas, so that state and local taxes and fees 3 go up and up and up. I think the Majority 4 votes in all of those budgets, ladies and 5 gentlemen. 6 So let's be honest about it. Let's 7 not distort the facts. We are all in this 8 together. We're not going to solve our 9 state's energy problems by upstaters attacking 10 downstaters or vice versa. 11 In fact, it is the case, pretty 12 clearly documented by the Center for 13 Governmental Responsibility in Rochester, that 14 City of New York subsidizes the rest of the 15 state between 7 and 11 billion dollars a year. 16 I'm not saying, you know, give all that money 17 back. But let's be honest and respectful 18 about how we raise our taxes. Upstate sales 19 taxes do not pay for the MTA. That's a 20 regional tax. 21 So let's get the facts on the 22 table. Let's have an honest debate about 23 energy policy. Let's try and do away with the 24 divisiveness. And let's do something that 25 actually reduces energy costs. I don't think

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 you're hearing from people on this side of the 2 aisle -- I think the debate got carried 3 away -- that we object to some of the ideas 4 you're advancing. We have to do something 5 when taxes go up to make adjustments. We have 6 to do something, as Senator Spano's bill 7 attempted to address, about seniors and home 8 energy costs. 9 We're saying let's do it better, 10 let's make sure the relief is targeted to the 11 consumers, to the people who actually suffer 12 the worst from increases in energy costs. We 13 welcome the opportunity to work with you on 14 that. We're not doing anyone any good if we 15 degenerate into a debate on, you know, what 16 part of the state is hurting worse than other 17 parts of the state. 18 All of the taxpayers in this state 19 are hurting. We should be looking out for all 20 of them. The energy costs are a tax, as 21 Senator Padavan said, on everyone in the 22 state. Let's not just focus on the sales 23 taxes, let's focus on the costs of energy. We 24 can improve efficiency, we can promote 25 conservation. And it is in fact the position

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 of every conservation organization, liberal 2 and conservative and bipartisan, in the 3 country that we do drive too much. So I would 4 respectfully suggest that that's not an 5 offensive comment for someone for make as a 6 part of an overall solution. 7 I'm going to vote against this bill 8 because, once again, coming back to the 9 specific legislation, I do have a concern over 10 the failure to ensure that the savings are 11 passed on from the wholesaler to the retailer 12 and the retailer to the consumer. 13 I do not reject the suggestion 14 others have made that this could result, this 15 would result in some savings to some people. 16 It's just not a good enough bill. We passed 17 it in September; we should have improved it by 18 now. 19 Let's not keep coming back with the 20 same bill, ladies and gentlemen. Let's try 21 and do a better job. We welcome the debate. 22 We welcome the discussion. We should not end 23 this session without enacting a comprehensive 24 energy plan and moving forward on many of the 25 issues that have been raised by members on the

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 other side of the aisle. But let's 2 incorporate -- we do have some ideas over here 3 also. Let's incorporate some of those ideas 4 and let's try and move forward as one state 5 together to solve our collective problems. 6 Thank you, Madam President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 8 you. 9 Senator Skelos. 10 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 11 I listened with great interest to Senator 12 Schneiderman. And sometimes I think that some 13 of the representatives from Manhattan are from 14 another world and really do not understand the 15 issues that confront people that have to use 16 their cars on a daily basis. 17 Now, Senator Schneiderman talks 18 about this imbalance of revenues from the city 19 to other parts of the state. I believe last 20 year this Legislature voted to cap the 21 Medicaid costs within the state of New York, 22 of which over 70 percent and probably higher 23 go directly to help the taxpayers of New York 24 City. Over 70 percent of the burden is 25 New York City. And probably in the next year

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 or so it will be approximating a billion 2 dollars. 3 So I think really when you govern 4 or even more so when you look to lead -- and 5 this is what this Majority does, is lead -- 6 you look to strike a balance between the 7 different regions of the state. 8 And what's critically important for 9 those of us who live in suburban communities, 10 but even more so those of us who live in 11 upstate communities, is the fact that gasoline 12 is expensive, people have to drive 55, 13 60 miles to go to their place of business. 14 That costs a lot of money in sales tax. 15 And anything that we can do, even 16 if it's $100 a year, $50 a year, when you cut 17 some taxes here and there, it all adds up. 18 And there are people that if we can save them 19 $500, $1000 a year from different programs 20 that have been brought forth by this 21 Majority -- the rebate program with the STAR 22 program, and I can go on and on -- to these 23 individuals, it means a lot. It can be the 24 difference between maybe a one-week vacation 25 or not going on vacation, and it enhances

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 their quality of life. 2 So I would urge many of my 3 colleagues that think saving a few dollars on 4 the gasoline price is not lowering the cost, 5 that they're simply wrong, and perhaps be a 6 little bit more sensitive to the needs of 7 those whose livelihood and their lives are 8 dependent upon the use of an automobile. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 10 you, Senator Skelos. 11 The debate is closed. 12 The Secretary will ring the bell. 13 Read the last section. 14 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 15 act shall take effect on the 30th day. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Call 17 the roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll.) 19 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Senator 20 Bonacic, to explain his vote. 21 SENATOR BONACIC: Thank you, 22 Madam President. 23 I think this debate crystallizes 24 the difference between Republicans and 25 Democrats. Republicans want to cut taxes.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 They want to help small businesses reduce 2 their energy bills. The Democrats do not. 3 And this debate that I've heard 4 today, whenever the Democrats get up and they 5 try to justify why they don't want to cut 6 taxes, it's, I think, the inaction of the 7 other house that never takes the bills up to 8 cut taxes. That is the fundamental difference 9 between Republicans and Democrats. 10 I'm voting yes. Thank you, Madam 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 13 you. Senator Bonacic will be recorded in the 14 affirmative. 15 Senator DeFrancisco, to explain his 16 vote. 17 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I'm voting 18 yes, and proudly. 19 And I think no one has mentioned up 20 to this point a very simple concept of what's 21 happened over the last -- I don't think 22 anybody has mentioned it -- over the last year 23 or so. And that is the state has received a 24 windfall. A windfall. And by receiving a 25 windfall, they're collecting taxes only

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 because of a market totally beyond our 2 control. 3 If a state is receiving a windfall, 4 you can talk all the policy you want to talk. 5 We should give the money back. And that's 6 what Senator Robach's bill does. We should 7 give the money back. 8 Senator Nozzolio mentioned 9 something very simple: Not one penny more. 10 You say it's not enough? It's certainly more 11 than nothing. And not passing this bill is 12 nothing. And our consumers deserve that. 13 We need to continue the long-term 14 solutions. The long-term solutions are the 15 most important. But the short-term ones are 16 all that we can do, and we're going to 17 continue rolling these out. 18 And if you want to vote no, vote 19 no. But we're going to make these things 20 happen. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 22 you. Senator DeFrancisco will be recorded in 23 the affirmative. 24 Senator Wright, to explain his 25 vote.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you, Madam 2 President. 3 I'm going to vote in favor of this 4 bill because this will be the seventh bill 5 that we've passed today, all of which comprise 6 a comprehensive approach to addressing the 7 energy issues in this state. 8 And I would note that all seven of 9 those bills have passed with bipartisan 10 support -- not unanimous, but certainly 11 bipartisan support from all of the regions of 12 this state, reflecting the comprehensiveness 13 and appropriateness of the policy being 14 advanced this morning by us. 15 Madam President, I vote aye. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 17 you. Senator Wright will be recorded in the 18 affirmative. 19 Senator Oppenheimer. 20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you, 21 Madam President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: To 23 explain her vote. 24 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Yes, I'm 25 changing my vote. But I have been with you on

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 all the other bills today. 2 But I'm changing my vote on this 3 one, because I feel that the information that 4 I heard, that it is the wholesaler who is 5 going to be the beneficiary of this, and there 6 is actually nothing that requires the 7 wholesaler to pass it down to the retailer. 8 And since prices on gasoline change every few 9 days, there's no way to even follow this 10 through. 11 I'm not interested in giving the 12 wholesalers this benefit. The reason I like 13 STAR and the programs that are going directly 14 to people is because it directly benefits 15 people. But I hear that this is only going to 16 benefit the wholesaler and there's no way to 17 make them pass it on. 18 So for that reason, I'm changing my 19 vote from this autumn. It will be no. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 21 you. Senator Volker will be recorded in the 22 negative. 23 I'm sorry, I looked at Senator 24 Volker. Senator Oppenheimer will be recorded 25 in the negative. I apologize.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Maziarz, to explain his 2 vote. 3 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Madam 4 President, I rise to support Senator Robach's 5 legislation. 6 I think that lowering the sales 7 tax -- I don't know how you can even dream 8 that this benefits wholesalers more than it 9 does the retailers, those people who drive to 10 the pumps almost on a daily basis to fill up. 11 You know, ExxonMobil, Sunoco, Shell 12 Oil Company are making billions of dollars in 13 record profits because they're gouging. The 14 State of New York is no better. They're doing 15 the same thing by making this windfall profit 16 on sales tax. 17 I agree with Senator Robach, 18 capping this at $2 a gallon is absolutely the 19 right way to go. And if it doesn't become the 20 law in the State of New York, we clearly know 21 that the blame rests with the other house 22 because of their concern for one geographic 23 area of this state over their concern for 24 another geographic area. 25 Thank you, Madam President.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 2 you. Senator Maziarz will be recorded in the 3 affirmative. 4 Senator Volker, to explain his 5 vote. 6 SENATOR VOLKER: Just very 7 quickly, Madam President, to explain my vote. 8 You know, Suzi, by the way, I'm 9 very much flattered that they thought that I 10 was you. 11 But let me just say that I used to 12 be chairman of Energy. And Jim Wright is 13 much, much better at this than I am. But I 14 could tell you something. There's no possible 15 way that the sales tax cut is not going to be 16 passed on to the consumers. 17 Yeah, the wholesalers. But if you 18 look at the pump -- next time you go get some 19 gasoline, look at the pump. What you'll find 20 out is that the sales tax is shown right on 21 there. If they don't reflect the sales tax, 22 it's fairly -- it's easy to go in and get 23 after the retailers and the dealers. 24 And that's basically what happened 25 with the Attorney General when he went in and

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 fined several of my gas stations. What they 2 did is they jumped ahead of the price 3 increase. That is not that the price wasn't 4 going up, but they knew it was coming, so they 5 increased the price the day before instead of 6 the day that they actually got the gasoline 7 with the higher price. And one of them got 8 fined, I think, $10,000 or something of that 9 nature. 10 But the truth is, I know it's easy 11 to say, Well, it's not going to get to the 12 consumers. I'll guarantee you it will get to 13 the consumers, no matter what they say. This 14 is not for wholesalers. When you cut taxes, 15 it's going to get to the consumers or else we 16 will pounce on them, and "we" meaning the 17 State of New York. 18 So my -- and I know that this is a 19 political debate to a certain extent. But the 20 truth is we are trying to cut taxes. And I 21 know you want to, but don't believe this 22 nonsense that because you cut at the wholesale 23 level that it's not going to get to the 24 consumers. Because it has to. Otherwise, our 25 system will pounce on the people who don't

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 comply. 2 I vote aye. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 4 you. Senator Volker will be recorded in the 5 affirmative. 6 Senator Onorato, to explain his 7 vote. 8 SENATOR ONORATO: Madam 9 President, I plan on supporting this measure, 10 but I think there is a little better way to do 11 it. 12 And the thing that I would like to 13 suggest again, that the tax should be based 14 upon the gallonage rather than the price. 15 Because the price fluctuates from day to day 16 as we see it lately. During this gasoline 17 shortage, I passed my gasoline station in the 18 morning and in the afternoon it was 10 cents a 19 gallon more than it was in the early morning. 20 And I know he didn't receive a delivery 21 between the morning and the afternoon. 22 And the other thing, Senator Volker 23 mentions about the taxes, you see them 24 alongside the gasoline thing? I don't see 25 that anymore. I used to see it. You used to

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 see the price of the gasoline, the federal 2 tax, the state tax, and the city tax. We 3 don't have that listed alongside the gas pumps 4 any longer. 5 And I think if we made that 6 mandatory that the taxes be shown, perhaps the 7 public will start getting on all of these 8 legislators, not only on the state level but 9 on the federal level, to bring the cost of it 10 down. And do it by doing it on the gallonage, 11 not the price. 12 I vote aye. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 14 you. Senator Onorato will be recorded in the 15 affirmative. 16 Senator Alesi, to explain his vote. 17 SENATOR ALESI: Thank you, Madam 18 President. I've been listening with great 19 interest, and I'd like to explain my vote as 20 well. 21 Because Senator Nozzolio very 22 passionately explained how necessary it is for 23 those of us who live in upstate to rely on our 24 vehicles and how expensive it can be when we 25 have to fill those vehicles with fuel.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 And, yes, Senator Schneiderman 2 paraphrased a lot of what was said here by 3 saying can't we all just get along. I guess I 4 can agree with that too. 5 You know, it struck me, though, as 6 someone who kind of has a love affair with 7 New York City, that if it's being suggested 8 that we drive a little less, then I don't know 9 how, when all of those subways are rolling 10 underneath New York streets, we can suggest to 11 those taxicabs, the 20,000 of them that are 12 running 24 hours a day, that they drive a 13 little less. 14 How do you suggest to them, as 15 small businesses or large businesses, and how 16 do you suggest to all of those delivery trucks 17 and how do you suggest to everybody that, 18 aside from their own personal needs, relies on 19 small business to provide the needs of 20 everything that we need in our daily lives, 21 whether it's a bread truck or whether it's 22 somebody delivering parts to an appliance 23 store, whatever it is -- how do you suggest to 24 them that they drive a little less? You 25 can't.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 And if you look at it from the 2 standpoint of the personal consumer, Senator 3 Nozzolio made the best argument anybody could 4 make for those of us who rely on our vehicles. 5 But let's look at New York City. 6 Let's go to Manhattan and let's look at those 7 congested streets. And what are they filled 8 with? They're filled with cabs and they're 9 filled with delivery trucks. It's business. 10 It's enterprise. It's commerce. 11 And what we're saying is if you 12 want to, join us in helping the constituency 13 in Manhattan and those other areas of New York 14 City that rely on that commerce, that rely on 15 those small businesses, that they themselves 16 rely on transportation that consume gasoline 17 and pay taxes when they do buy that 18 gasoline -- join us. Help us help you with 19 your constituents and with all of those small 20 businesses in New York City that have to pay 21 taxes on gasoline as well. Join us. Join us 22 and help us help you with your constituents. 23 Tax cuts work. They work just as 24 easily in Manhattan as they work in upstate 25 New York.

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 By way of explaining my vote, I'll 2 be voting yes. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 4 you. Senator Alesi will be recorded in the 5 affirmative. 6 Senator Young, to explain her vote. 7 SENATOR YOUNG: Thank you, Madam 8 President. I rise to support this bill for 9 many reasons. And I too have listened very 10 carefully to the debate here today. 11 And this whole argument about 12 there's really not going to be any savings to 13 the consumers is false, that the wholesalers 14 are just going to get the break. 15 Senator Winner talked about the 16 fact that his district is on the Pennsylvania 17 line. So is mine. You just have to travel a 18 short distance from the edge of my district to 19 see lower prices. 20 But nowhere do I see it most 21 greatly put forward as when you go on the 22 reservations in my district. Because you know 23 what? They're not collecting the state sales 24 tax on the gasoline in the reservations in my 25 district, and the price differential is

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 enormous. 2 You talk about the fact that people 3 should drive less and this really doesn't hurt 4 upstaters to have the high price in gasoline. 5 Senator Nozzolio spoke very well about the 6 impact. But I'll tell you some stories. I 7 can tell you at least one right now. 8 In my district, access to 9 healthcare is a huge issue. We have to drive 10 to get to the hospital. And if somebody has a 11 serious illness, they have to drive to Buffalo 12 or Rochester, which can be anywhere from 75 to 13 90 miles away. 14 Recently I was talking to a 15 constituent whose husband was seriously ill, 16 gravely ill. He had to have a valve replaced 17 in his heart, and there were complications. 18 She was driving 75 miles to Buffalo every 19 single day for two weeks, and she was out of 20 her mind with worry. But what compounded that 21 was the fact that her budget, her family's 22 budget was being busted because she had a very 23 difficult time paying for the gasoline. 24 You have to think about the real 25 life consequences that people face across this

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 state and keep those in mind. People in this 2 state feel like they're being taxed to death. 3 And they are. They are. They need to have 4 relief just to live their everyday lives, to 5 be able to afford to stay in this state. And 6 that's what this bill is about. 7 And I vote yes. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 9 you. Senator Young will be recorded in the 10 affirmative. 11 Senator Ada Smith, to explain her 12 vote. 13 SENATOR ADA SMITH: Thank you, 14 Madam President. 15 In a former life, directly out of 16 college, I worked for a major oil company. 17 And one of the things that we had to do late 18 at night was to go and visit service stations 19 throughout the five boroughs, Nassau and 20 Suffolk County, because prices were not being 21 shown at the pump from the wholesalers. The 22 wholesalers were keeping the money, and the 23 retailers were suffering and showing the 24 higher prices. 25 So therefore, with this knowledge,

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 I clearly vote no. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 3 you. Senator Ada Smith will be recorded in 4 the negative. 5 Senator Robach, to explain his 6 vote. 7 SENATOR ROBACH: Yes, very 8 briefly. 9 I rise to support this bill, 10 obviously. And I guess what I would say is, 11 first and foremost, I think it is very good 12 policy, long term or short term. 13 And secondly, I've appreciated the 14 dialogue. There was someone made the 15 suggestion that this bill was shortsighted. I 16 think Senator Parker said I was insincere. 17 I'll let you be the judge if those accusations 18 are true. 19 But one thing I can tell you I am 20 is a pragmatic person, and I like to be a 21 populist. And I just ask you to run this over 22 your head. If you think, if your constituents 23 could vote directly for this bill, that they 24 don't think it will help their bottom line, 25 you're wrong. Because if this was a survey, I

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 would guarantee you that overwhelmingly, 2 whether you're upstate or downstate, your 3 constituents would vote yes. 4 And so I think, in the spirit of 5 wanting to do something, and something that is 6 popular with our constituents on an issue 7 that's affecting them in their pockets, it's 8 time for New York to make a different change. 9 This is a start. 10 I'll be voting in the affirmative. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 12 you. Senator Volker will be -- Senator 13 Robach, excuse me, will be recorded in the 14 affirmative. 15 Senator Meier, to explain his vote. 16 SENATOR MEIER: Thank you, Madam 17 President. 18 I have to have to rise to thank 19 everyone here for educating me because I've 20 learned something valuable today. And it's 21 the answer to a question, and the question is 22 this. 23 When does a large organization, a 24 large, powerful organization, when are they 25 able to reap an obscene $200 million excess

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 profit and not get condemnation from the other 2 side of the aisle? And the answer is, it's 3 when that organization is government of the 4 State of New York. Two hundred million 5 dollars out of the pockets of the taxpayers of 6 this state that we didn't count on when we 7 enacted the budget last year. 8 Now, if you want to call what's 9 going into Exxon's pockets obscene, what about 10 what's going out of the pockets of my 11 constituents and yours into the treasury of 12 this state so that, oh, by the way, all of us 13 can carve it up and spend it later. That's 14 obscene. We ought to give it back. 15 I vote aye. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 17 you. Senator Meier will be recorded in the 18 affirmative. 19 Senator Parker, to explain his 20 vote. 21 SENATOR PARKER: Madam President, 22 I rise to vote no on this bill. Some of you 23 may be surprised by that. 24 The difference between the 25 Democrats and Republicans is not that you want

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 to do something and we want to do nothing, 2 it's that we are not willing to trick the 3 people of the State of New York to think that 4 we're giving them a whole bunch of money when 5 the reality is we're giving them dimes on the 6 bushels, whatever. 7 I mean, this is not a significant 8 savings. This is extremely short-term. There 9 is nothing long-term about this proposal at 10 all. 11 And, you know, when we really, you 12 know, understand what people really want is 13 they want -- they want services. They want 14 things. And the reality is if you take this 15 and you cost it out and you ask your voters 16 would you rather -- and you poll them on this, 17 would you rather have $10 back or would you 18 rather us give you $200 million worth of 19 services? And I bet you if you polled them on 20 that question you would get a very, very 21 different answer than the question that you 22 posed them. 23 They would say absolutely every 24 time that they'll take the $200 million in 25 services, because they understand what that

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 means in terms of reducing their kids' tuition 2 at CUNY and SUNY, they understand what that 3 means in terms of having access to affordable 4 housing, they understand what that means in 5 terms of accessible and affordable and quality 6 healthcare. 7 That's what they understand, not 8 the tricks that we try to pull off in this 9 chamber and call them tax breaks. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 11 you. Senator Parker will be recorded in the 12 negative. 13 The Secretary will announce the 14 results. 15 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 16 the negative on Calendar Number 86 are 17 Senators Andrews, Breslin, Diaz, Dilan, Duane, 18 Hassell-Thompson, L. Krueger, Oppenheimer, 19 Parker, Paterson, Schneiderman, and A. Smith. 20 Those Senators absent pursuant to 21 Rule 9: Senators Libous and Stavisky. 22 Those Senators absent from voting: 23 Senator Sampson. 24 Ayes, 46. Nays, 12. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: The

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 bill is passed. 2 Senator Johnson. 3 SENATOR JOHNSON: Madam 4 President, pursuant to Rule 9, I was required 5 to be at a meeting of the Finance Standing 6 Committee, and I cast my votes as follows for 7 the bills on the controversial calendar: 8 5846A, Calendar Number 84, aye; 5965A, 9 Calendar Number 85, aye. 10 Thank you. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 12 you, Senator Johnson. The record will so 13 reflect. 14 Senator Breslin. 15 SENATOR BRESLIN: Thank you, 16 Madam President. Pursuant to Rule 9, I was 17 required to be at the Finance meetings. And I 18 request that my votes be taken as follows. On 19 S5846A, Calendar 84, an aye. And on S5965A, 20 Calendar Number 85, aye. 21 Thank you, Madam President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 23 you, Senator. The record will so reflect. 24 Senator Malcolm Smith. 25 SENATOR MALCOLM SMITH: Thank

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 you, Madam President. 2 Pursuant to Rule 9, I was required 3 to be in a public hearing for the Finance 4 Committee. I'd like to have my vote recorded 5 on the following controversial calendar bills. 6 On Senate Bill 5846A, I vote aye. And Senate 7 Bill 5965A, I vote aye also. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 9 you, Senator. The record will so reflect. 10 Senator Montgomery. 11 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Madam 12 President. Pursuant to Rule 9, I was required 13 to be at a public hearing on finance. And I 14 would like to cast my votes as follows. On 15 Senate Bill 5846A, Calendar Number 84, my vote 16 is aye. And Senate Bill S5965A, Calendar 17 Number 85, no. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 19 you, Senator. The record will so reflect. 20 Senator Skelos, that completes the 21 controversial reading of the calendar. 22 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, Madam 23 President. 24 Is there any other business at the 25 desk at this time?

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: No, 2 there is not. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: I just want to 4 point out to the members of the Majority that 5 there will be a conference following session. 6 And also to all the members that 7 next week is a three-day week, so I know we 8 all look forward to that. 9 And I move we adjourn in memory of 10 Coretta Scott King -- and I'm sure at some 11 future time we will do an appropriate 12 recognition of her life -- and move we stand 13 adjourned until Monday, February 6th, at 14 3:00 p.m., intervening days to be legislative 15 days. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT LITTLE: Thank 17 you. 18 On motion, the Senate stands 19 adjourned until Monday, February 6th, at 20 3:00 p.m., intervening days being legislative 21 days. 22 (Whereupon, at 1:46 p.m., the 23 Senate adjourned.) 24 25

Candyco Transcription Service, Inc.

(518) 371-8910