Monday, April 10, 2006

1 NEW YORK STATE SENATE 2 3 4 THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 April 10, 2006 11 3:02 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 LT. GOVERNOR MARY O. DONOHUE, President 19 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary 20 21 22 23 24 25

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(518) 371-8910 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will 3 please come to order. 4 I ask everyone present to please 5 rise and repeat with me the Pledge of 6 Allegiance. 7 (Whereupon, the assemblage recited 8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 9 THE PRESIDENT: In the absence of 10 clergy, may we bow our heads in a moment of 11 silence, please. 12 (Whereupon, the assemblage 13 respected a moment of silence.) 14 THE PRESIDENT: Reading of the 15 Journal. 16 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 17 Sunday, April 9, the Senate met pursuant to 18 adjournment. The Journal of Saturday, 19 April 8, was read and approved. On motion, 20 Senate adjourned. 21 THE PRESIDENT: Without 22 objection, the Journal stands approved as 23 read. 24 Presentation of petitions. 25 Messages from the Assembly.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Messages from the Governor. 2 Reports of standing committees. 3 Reports of select committees. 4 Communications and reports from 5 state officers. 6 Motions and resolutions. 7 Senator Seward. 8 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes, Madam 9 President. I move to amend Senate Bill Number 10 6766B by striking out the amendments made on 11 March 15 and restoring it to its previous 12 print number, 6766A. 13 THE PRESIDENT: So ordered, 14 Senator. 15 SENATOR SEWARD: Thank you. 16 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Spano. 17 SENATOR SPANO: Madam President, 18 on page 22 I offer the following amendments to 19 Calendar 335, Senate Print Number 2271A, and 20 ask that said bill retain its place on the 21 Third Reading Calendar. 22 THE PRESIDENT: The amendments 23 are received, and the bill will retain its 24 place on the Third Reading Calendar. 25 Senator Skelos.

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 2 there are two resolutions at the desk, 4506 3 and 4507, by Senator Flanagan. Could we have 4 the titles read and move for their immediate 5 adoption. 6 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 7 will read. 8 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 9 Flanagan, Legislative Resolution Number 4506, 10 commending Abby Cassella-Graeser upon the 11 occasion of receiving the State University of 12 New York Chancellor's Award for Student 13 Excellence. 14 And by Senator Flanagan, 15 Legislative Resolution Number 4507, commending 16 William Lahti upon the occasion of receiving 17 the State University of New York Chancellor's 18 Award for Student Excellence. 19 THE PRESIDENT: All in favor of 20 the resolutions please signify by saying aye. 21 (Response of "Aye.") 22 THE PRESIDENT: Opposed, nay. 23 (No response.) 24 THE PRESIDENT: The resolutions 25 are adopted.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 3 if we could go to the noncontroversial reading 4 of the calendar. 5 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 6 will read. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 188, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 6259, an 9 act to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control 10 Law, in relation to sale. 11 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 12 section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect on the 180th day. 15 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Duane, to 18 explain your vote. 19 SENATOR DUANE: Thank you, Madam 20 President. To explain my vote. 21 I'll be voting no for this bill. 22 First, I don't really understand this bill. I 23 understand that currently the only soju that 24 can be sold in restaurants is soju imported 25 from Korea, but I don't know who makes soju in

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(518) 371-8910 1 New York and how much of an impact this will 2 have. So I'd like to take a closer look at 3 this. 4 Secondly, it of course makes it 5 easier for people to consume alcohol. And 6 while this may not be a problem for most 7 New Yorkers, for a large number of New Yorkers 8 I think it's safe to -- it's clear that many 9 New Yorkers have an addiction to alcohol. And 10 since we haven't passed Timothy's Law in this 11 house, a lot of New Yorkers are going to be 12 denied the alcohol and drug treatment they 13 desperately need, as well as other kinds of 14 mental health treatment. And so not passing 15 Timothy's Law hurts New York's families. 16 So in an effort to get this bill 17 into law, I want to point out to everyone that 18 this is the middle of April and we're going 19 away on break, and then we only have two 20 months after that. And we need to get this 21 bill done. The mental health of New Yorkers 22 is obviously too important to ignore. 23 So I vote no on the bill, but I'm 24 looking forward to voting yes on Timothy's Law 25 this session.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Thank you, Madam President. 2 THE PRESIDENT: You will be 3 recorded as voting in the negative, Senator. 4 The Secretary will announce the 5 results. 6 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 7 the negative on Calendar Number 188 are 8 Senators Duane and Padavan. 9 Ayes, 43. Nays, 2. 10 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 11 passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 345, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 1324, 14 an act to amend the Correction Law, in 15 relation to requiring. 16 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Lay it 17 aside. 18 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid 19 aside. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 411, by Senator Little, Senate Print 3376D, an 22 act -- 23 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Lay it 24 aside. 25 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid

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(518) 371-8910 1 aside. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 586, by Senator Fuschillo, Senate Print 1951, 4 an act to amend the Education Law, in relation 5 to the transportation of children. 6 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 7 section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 9 act shall take effect on the first of July. 10 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 45. 13 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 14 passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 588, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 5416, an 17 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to 18 the streamlining of planning. 19 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 20 section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 29. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 24 (The Secretary called the roll.) 25 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 45.

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(518) 371-8910 1 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 2 passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 594, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 5208, an 5 act to amend the Tax Law, the Administrative 6 Code of the City of New York, and the Codes 7 and Ordinances of the City of Yonkers. 8 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 9 section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 13. This 11 act shall take effect upon enactment. 12 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 45. 15 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 16 passed. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 598, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 1973C, 19 an act to amend the Energy Law, in relation to 20 implementing. 21 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 22 section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 24 act shall take effect immediately. 25 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.

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(518) 371-8910 1 (The Secretary called the roll.) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 48. 3 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 4 passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 619, by Senator Alesi, Senate Print 970A, an 7 act to amend the Correction Law, in relation 8 to the penalty for a sex offender. 9 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last 10 section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 47. Nays, 16 1. Senator Montgomery recorded in the 17 negative. 18 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 19 passed. 20 Senator Skelos. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. If you 22 would recognize Rabbi Butman, please. 23 THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I will. 24 Thank you, Senator Skelos. 25 With us this afternoon now to give

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(518) 371-8910 1 the invocation is Rabbi Shmuel Butman, from 2 Lubavitch Youth Organization in Brooklyn, 3 New York. 4 RABBI BUTMAN: Our Heavenly 5 Father, we have gathered here today as we have 6 once every year, and this year in honor of the 7 104th birthday of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, 8 Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson. 9 The Rebbe is the one who said that 10 every person, regardless of race, religion, 11 color or creed, has a special spark and it is 12 our obligation to ignite that spark. And 13 therefore the Rebbe encouraged all people, 14 regardless of affiliation, to a greater 15 plateau of dedication and service. 16 The Rebbe also said that this is 17 the last generation of exile and the first 18 generation of redemption. And we can do -- we 19 can bring the redemption even closer by doing 20 more deeds of goodness and kindness. 21 The Rebbe also encouraged the seven 22 Noahide Laws, which are the seven universal 23 laws that govern honest and decent societies. 24 Each and every single one of you was chosen by 25 Almighty God and by divine providence to

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(518) 371-8910 1 represent goodness and kindness, morality and 2 decency in the state of New York. And you are 3 the ones who are the custodians of the laws of 4 morality, of goodness and kindness and decency 5 in the state of New York. And you have a 6 special -- you have a special mission that 7 Almighty God gave you. 8 And I want you to know that every 9 Saturday in our synagogues we pray for you. 10 We say the [Hebrew], that all those who serve 11 the public faithfully, Almighty God should 12 send them a special blessing. We ask for a 13 blessing for everyone, but then for a 14 particular blessing for all of you who serve 15 the public faithfully. 16 When I opened the Senate the first 17 time, the Rebbe said to me that I should bring 18 a pushkeh and we should give charity while 19 we're doing the prayer, so everybody should 20 see what we are doing and they should know the 21 purpose of funds and of money. So therefore I 22 will offer a dollar, where it says "in God we 23 trust," in this pushkeh. 24 I don't want you to think that this 25 is a fundraising campaign. Nevertheless,

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(518) 371-8910 1 anyone who wants to do an act of goodness and 2 kind is very, very welcome to join me. 3 So in the -- in the merit of the 4 Rebbe, we ask You, Almighty God, to bestow 5 Your blessing upon all the members of this 6 great assemblage, the Senate of the State of 7 New York, to their families. Grant them, 8 Almighty God, health, happiness, and 9 fulfillment in all of their endeavors. 10 And let us together say amen. 11 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Skelos. 12 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 13 if we could go to the controversial reading of 14 the calendar. 15 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 16 will read first ring the bell. The members 17 should take their seats so we can begin the 18 controversial calendar. 19 Senator Skelos. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: If we could go 21 to the controversial reading of the calendar. 22 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 23 will read. 24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 25 345, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 1324,

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(518) 371-8910 1 an act to amend the Correction Law. 2 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: 3 Explanation. 4 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Nozzolio, 5 an explanation has been requested. 6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 7 Madam President. 8 Madam President and my colleagues, 9 the measure before us was originally passed by 10 this body in 1997 and has been passed in each 11 year subsequently to that year. The purpose 12 of the measure is to require inmates in state 13 correctional facilities to pay a modest $7 14 copayment for medical treatment. This makes 15 inmates partially responsible in some way for 16 their medical treatment. 17 But that responsibility is in no 18 way going to, under this legislation, deny any 19 inmate medical treatment for a lack of ability 20 to pay. Emergency care would not be denied 21 under this legislation. Medical care for 22 chronic conditions would not be denied by this 23 legislation. 24 The requirement for a medical 25 copayment is simply a way that we can say to

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(518) 371-8910 1 the citizens of the state that yes, inmates 2 should pay a small portion of the cost of 3 their incarceration. 4 And as some of you have 5 consistently shaken your heads against this 6 measure, I say to you this, that you have to 7 tell me why -- and, more importantly, the 8 taxpayers of this state -- why the states of 9 California, Connecticut, Ohio, Pennsylvania, 10 and New Jersey can require a copayment similar 11 if not identical to this copayment and have 12 any system of healthcare that's any less 13 caring and supportive of inmates' needs than 14 our healthcare system. 15 Frankly, it's an argument I believe 16 that has been made against this measure that 17 is totally indefensible, and that one need 18 look only to those states and, if those states 19 in and of themselves don't change your minds, 20 certainly look to the federal prison system, 21 which has also an identical copayment for 22 healthcare as this one measure before us 23 requires. 24 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Serrano. 25 SENATOR SERRANO: Madam

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(518) 371-8910 1 President, I have an amendment at the desk. 2 I'm asking that the reading of the amendment 3 be waived and that I be heard on the 4 amendment. 5 THE PRESIDENT: The reading is 6 waived, and you may proceed on the amendment. 7 SENATOR SERRANO: Madam 8 President, my colleagues, this amendment to 9 Calendar Number 345 would replace the $7 10 inmate medical copay with a copay of 50 cents. 11 It would also require the Department of 12 Correctional Services to facilitate each 13 inmate's medical application at least 90 days 14 before the inmate's release, which would begin 15 the process of enrollment before release so 16 that there are no gaps in service for those 17 who need medical and mental health services. 18 Now, I know that this bill precedes 19 me coming to the Senate. It's actually been 20 coming before this house since 1997. And 21 while I firmly believe that inmates, based on 22 the fact that they're not making any real 23 money, should not be held responsible for any 24 copays, I see this amendment as a sign of, 25 hopefully, a compromise, to move this bill

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(518) 371-8910 1 along once and for all in the direction that 2 it should be going. 3 It's really, I think, not the right 4 way to go to require inmates to pay $7. That 5 may seem reasonable to the general public, but 6 for those making 17 cents an hour, which is 7 what the average inmate is making, that would 8 be more than a week's pay. 9 So one of the greatest challenges 10 for newly released inmates is avoiding 11 returning to drug use and to incarceration. 12 And I believe that the other part of this 13 amendment, which would begin the enrollment 14 process ahead of time, would also alleviate in 15 that area. 16 So I hope that we can move this 17 amendment along, and I ask my colleagues to 18 support it. And hopefully we can move this 19 bill along here in this house with a much more 20 reasonable 50-cent copay instead of $7, which 21 I think is just unrealistic, given that 22 inmates make 17 cents an hour. 23 Thank you. 24 THE PRESIDENT: All those 25 Senators in agreement please signify by

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(518) 371-8910 1 raising your hands. 2 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 3 agreement are Senators Breslin, Coppola, 4 Dilan, Gonzalez, L. Krueger, Oppenheimer, 5 Parker, Sabini, Savino, Schneiderman, Serrano, 6 A. Smith, M. Smith, Stachowski, and Stavisky. 7 THE PRESIDENT: The amendment is 8 not agreed to. 9 Senator Krueger. 10 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Madam 11 President, on the bill. 12 THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed 13 on the bill. 14 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 15 Well, I'm sorry that our amendment 16 did not carry, because I think that Senator 17 Serrano, through his amendment, was attempting 18 to highlight what the real problems are with 19 this legislation. 20 We've had this debate several years 21 in a row. Senator Nozzolio referenced that 22 debate. And while it is true this bill has 23 passed this house, it hasn't gone anywhere in 24 the Assembly, and actually each year there are 25 more people who vote against this bill when we

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(518) 371-8910 1 have this debate. 2 So again, I'd like to just 3 highlight some of the arguments of why it is 4 necessary that when we imprison people we 5 ensure they have access to healthcare. 6 Because it's not just a humane question of 7 ensuring that prisoners in the New York State 8 correctional system have access to healthcare 9 for themselves, it is a public health issue to 10 ensure that an exceptionally ill population -- 11 because in fact the prisoner population of 12 New York State is significantly more sick than 13 the overall population of New York State. We 14 have disproportionately high rates of people 15 who are chronically ill, who are HIV positive, 16 have AIDS, have hepatitis C, have 17 tuberculosis, have illnesses that not only put 18 themselves at risk but put the overall prison 19 population at risk, put the staff at prisons 20 at risk. 21 And of course as people move out of 22 prisons into their communities, if in fact 23 they have long-term illnesses that may in fact 24 be contagious that are not treated, they put 25 the overall broader community at risk. If

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(518) 371-8910 1 they are not treated appropriately through 2 healthcare when they are in prison and they 3 end up leaving the prison system far sicker 4 than they would have been without good 5 healthcare, they in fact then become a greater 6 burden on the public when they leave the 7 prison system. 8 So in fact I would argue that the 9 prison population is the last population you 10 want to decrease access to healthcare for, 11 because it is a price then paid not just by 12 the prisoners themselves but by the staff in 13 prisons and by the greater community overall, 14 a cost not just -- 15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Madam 16 President. 17 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Nozzolio. 18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Will Senator 19 Krueger yield? 20 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Krueger, 21 will you yield? 22 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Yes, I 23 will, Madam President. 24 THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, 25 Senator.

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 2 Madam President. 3 Madam President, the question I 4 have, does Senator Krueger have any evidence 5 that the healthcare system for prison inmates 6 in New York is deficient when compared to the 7 states of California, Connecticut, New Jersey 8 or the federal system? 9 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you, 10 Madam President. 11 I appreciate the question, Senator. 12 Yes, I do. In fact, there have been a series 13 of reports done, newspaper proceedings, and 14 even lawsuits arguing that in fact the 15 healthcare system in our jails in New York 16 State can, to quote The New York Times, be a 17 death sentence: "Private Healthcare in Jails 18 can be a Death Sentence," February 27, 2005, 19 The New York Times. "A year-long examination 20 of the prison health system by the Times 21 reveals repeated instances of medical care 22 that has been flawed and sometimes lethal." 23 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Madam 24 President. 25 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Nozzolio.

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Will Senator 2 Krueger yield to a question? 3 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Krueger, 4 will you yield for a question? 5 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: I'd like to 6 answer the first question on the floor before 7 I yield, Madam President. Might I continue? 8 THE PRESIDENT: You may complete 9 your answer, Senator. 10 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 11 So this series, which I'm happy to 12 share with all of my colleagues, actually was 13 a 15-page series in The New York Times. 14 There was also a study done, a 15 background briefing paper on healthcare in 16 California prisons, a comparison. A report on 17 organizing principles of care and the 18 importance of ensuring access to healthcare in 19 our prison system. 20 So there are a series of reports 21 that have been done that in fact argue that 22 New York State's prison healthcare system 23 actually is inferior to several other states, 24 including California's. And again, I think 25 most tellingly, the series in The New York

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(518) 371-8910 1 Times just a year ago highlights the answer to 2 the first question by the Senator. 3 I'm happy to take an additional 4 question. 5 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Nozzolio, 6 you have another question? 7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator 8 Krueger, I heard with some interest your 9 bibliography, yet you didn't answer my 10 question. 11 My question was whether or not if 12 our system is inferior -- I think you answered 13 the opposite of my question. I asked was the 14 states of California, New Jersey, Connecticut, 15 or the federal system, who are requiring a 16 copay, in some way inferior to our healthcare 17 system. You're saying that it sounds like it 18 is -- like our system, which does not require 19 a copay, is in fact inferior to those states, 20 by your studies. 21 So if those states which have a 22 copayment -- my question is this. If those 23 states which already have copayments required 24 are superior to our healthcare system, then 25 how could you be opposed to a copayment when

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(518) 371-8910 1 in fact we are not requiring a copayment now, 2 those other states and the federal system are 3 requiring a copayment now? 4 You are stating -- somehow listing 5 studies that show our system is inferior to 6 those states. Well, if our system is inferior 7 to those states, Senator -- we are not having 8 a copayment, they do have a copayment -- I 9 think you're making the case that says a 10 copayment is irrelevant to whether a state's 11 healthcare system is in fact inferior to 12 another state's. 13 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: I'm sorry, 14 Madam President, is that a question? 15 THE PRESIDENT: That is a 16 question, Senator Krueger. 17 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: All right. 18 Well, then, I'll try to continue as best I can 19 in response. 20 First off, my point in response to 21 your first question is that yes, our 22 healthcare system in our prisons is not a good 23 healthcare system and we do need to improve 24 it. 25 If your question is will copays in

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(518) 371-8910 1 some way improve it, since my understanding is 2 the copays would go into the General Fund, not 3 into the healthcare system in our prisons, 4 it's not at all clear how payment through 5 copayments would improve the healthcare system 6 in our prisons, although I do believe we need 7 to improve the healthcare system in our 8 prisons. 9 As regards to California, 10 conceivably California's system is also not a 11 perfect system. The report I referenced 12 actually is a comparative study of many 13 reports. And I would like the time to 14 actually review it with you, if you like, 15 after session, as to what we learned from it. 16 The arguments on the federal system 17 I think to some degree are a separate issue, 18 because of course it's a very different prison 19 population in the federal prison system than 20 in New York. 21 To continue with my points about 22 why I think this bill is not in the best 23 interests of the people of New York State is 24 does it answer that question of the Senator, 25 will copay payments improve the quality of

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(518) 371-8910 1 healthcare in our prison system. And I don't 2 believe there's a basis to argue that it will, 3 particularly since the money won't go into our 4 prison system. 5 I would also argue that we know 6 that copays decrease access, particularly when 7 the cost of the copay is so disproportionately 8 high in comparison to the available income. 9 And, Senator -- 10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Madam 11 President. 12 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Nozzolio. 13 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: If I could 14 finish my thought. 15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Madam 16 President, will Senator Krueger yield? 17 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Krueger, 18 will you yield for another question? 19 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: I would 20 like to finish my thought, and then I'll be 21 happy to yield, Madam President. 22 THE PRESIDENT: Please finish 23 your thought. 24 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 25 That again, as Senator --

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Point of 2 order, Madam President. Is Senator Krueger 3 refusing to yield? 4 THE PRESIDENT: Senator, are you 5 refusing to yield? 6 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: No, I asked 7 to continue my thought on my statement on the 8 bill before I accepted another question. 9 THE PRESIDENT: I understood you 10 to say you do yield. You'd like to finish 11 your answer, and then you will yield. 12 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you, 13 Madam President, yes. 14 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Nozzolio. 15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 16 Madam President. 17 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Krueger, 18 please finish your answer. 19 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you, 20 Madam President. Thank you so much. 21 So to continue my thought, my 22 concern is that with Senator Nozzolio's bill, 23 with the price of the copay being so 24 excessively high in comparison to the actual 25 possible income stream of prisoners -- and I

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(518) 371-8910 1 believe that my colleague Senator Serrano's 2 amendment that just failed to pass highlighted 3 that the average pay of a person in our prison 4 system works out to an average of 17 cents an 5 hour -- that the proposed cost of $7 of a 6 copay to see a doctor will result in fewer 7 prisoners having access to our healthcare 8 system. 9 And as we know, when you are ill 10 and you cannot get access to healthcare, you 11 are more likely to continue to be ill, to 12 become more ill, and to have increased costs 13 associated with when you are finally seen. We 14 all know that it is far more expensive to be 15 seen for emergency care than for ongoing care. 16 And we all know that there are 17 long-term risks to a prison population, both 18 the prisoners and the staff that work with 19 them, to have people with illnesses that are 20 easily transferable -- particularly in a 21 closed population, as they are in prison -- 22 not having access to the appropriate 23 medications and treatments to decrease their 24 illnesses and to decrease the spread of their 25 illnesses.

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(518) 371-8910 1 I'd now be happy to respond to 2 Senator Nozzolio's additional question. 3 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Nozzolio, 4 you may proceed with a question. If you still 5 have one. 6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 7 Madam President. 8 Senator Krueger's comments are all 9 well and good, except she continues to fail to 10 make the case that there is any causal 11 connection between a state or the federal 12 system requiring a copayment and the provision 13 of medical services. 14 I think that, Senator, you 15 certainly show compassion and concern -- at 16 least you're talking about -- your interest is 17 certainly an interest of having high-quality 18 care for inmate medical services. And on that 19 score, we're certainly sharing your objective. 20 However, you continually spout 21 study after study, newspaper report after 22 newspaper report chastising the services 23 provided in New York State, yet you fail to 24 say how the states that require copayments 25 already have any diminution of medical care.

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(518) 371-8910 1 And that, I think, is the essence of this 2 debate. 3 The debate is to focus on the 4 provision of services and how we should spread 5 the cost of incarceration to those who are 6 receiving benefits while incarcerated. There 7 is no causal connection that any of these 8 studies have made or certainly that you have 9 made on how copayments in any way, shape or 10 form diminish the provision of services for 11 inmates. 12 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you, 13 Madam President. I would like to answer. 14 I think to some degree the Senator 15 is asking me to prove a negative: if we had 16 copayments, would that decrease the quality of 17 care in the New York State prison system. And 18 I suppose the dilemma is, since we are already 19 starting with a very bad model of quality of 20 care in the New York State prison systems, 21 would it continue to harm it further if you 22 made it harder for prisoners to get access to 23 this healthcare system. 24 I hope, even though the Senator and 25 I disagree on his bill, that where we do agree

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(518) 371-8910 1 is we want a better quality of care in our 2 prison system, in our healthcare system, and 3 that that really is the assignment in front of 4 us. 5 That in the State of New York, 6 where we are legislators overseeing the 7 Department of Corrections and the prison 8 system, that it is not in the best interests 9 of the public or the prison system to have a 10 bad model of delivery of healthcare. That 11 unfortunately, based on the evidence before 12 us, we do have a bad quality of healthcare, 13 that we should do better. And where we 14 disagree is whether copays will get us there. 15 I argue copays will not get us to 16 where we need to go, because there is data 17 that shows that copays for very low income 18 people ends up decreasing their ability to 19 access healthcare. 20 I respect that the Senator and I 21 may disagree on whether or not copays will 22 decrease access to healthcare for prisoners. 23 But I assume we do agree that a problem we 24 face in our prison system is that the quality 25 of our healthcare is not at the standards it

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(518) 371-8910 1 ought to be and should be. And I hope that 2 that's where we can move forward in agreement 3 in the future in both houses, and with the 4 Governor and with the agency, that it is not 5 acceptable to have a healthcare system where 6 prisoners currently have such desperate 7 healthcare needs that are not addressed. 8 And no, I do not believe that 9 copays will increase the chances of improving 10 the system. 11 Thank you, Madam President. 12 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Nozzolio, 13 on the bill. 14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 15 Madam President. On the bill. 16 My colleagues, I believe that the 17 other side has tried to confuse the debate. 18 This is -- the issue of healthcare in our 19 prison system is certainly an important issue. 20 But the bill before us is trying 21 focus on another important issue, and that 22 important issue is that while our senior 23 citizens are scraping to make copayments on 24 their medical insurance, while state employees 25 have to provide a copayment for receiving

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(518) 371-8910 1 benefits, while those who are abiding by the 2 law are scraping to provide those copayments, 3 those who are breaking the law are in effect 4 given free medical care at taxpayers' expense 5 with no sense of responsibility whatsoever for 6 the cost of that payment. 7 This is not a unique issue. It's 8 one that other states have aggressively 9 addressed. And states larger than New York -- 10 witness California -- systems that are larger 11 than the state system, the federal system, 12 those prison systems require a copayment. 13 I was very pleased to see Senator 14 Serrano stand up and support the concept of 15 copayment. At the risk of sounding like 16 Senator Volker, I was honored to serve with 17 Senator Serrano's father. And that I know 18 that his sincerity in bringing this amendment 19 was one certainly that should be recognized. 20 I would ask Senator Serrano to go 21 into the house where his father and I served 22 and get the Assembly to also pass a copayment 23 for the amount that Senator Serrano suggested. 24 If they did, I certainly would look at this 25 measure and move to compromise.

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(518) 371-8910 1 But it's my understanding, Senator, 2 that the Assembly has yet to support any type 3 of copayment. If you could get them to 4 support the type of amendment that you put 5 forward, I would move to support a similar 6 type of procedure in this house. 7 So I think that your movement was 8 fine, to a point. But frankly, the Assembly 9 has never moved on this issue. That we in the 10 Senate have taken leadership and have 11 demonstrated what other states have already 12 said to their taxpayers, to their senior 13 citizens, to their government employees -- all 14 of whom have not broken the law -- that we 15 believe that the inmates in our prison system 16 should not be denied medical care, but those 17 who do have inmate accounts, those who do have 18 funds to pay a modest copayment should be 19 required, as the states that have been already 20 enumerated, and the federal system, require 21 copayments to be made. 22 Parenthetically, the $7 copayment 23 that is part of this legislation was chosen at 24 the time that the state employees' copayment 25 was at a $7 level. Since the time this

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(518) 371-8910 1 legislation has been drafted, the employees of 2 the state have had to pay considerably more, 3 almost 50 percent more -- more than that, in 4 some cases -- where their copayments are 5 greater. So we took the model of the state 6 employees' healthcare insurance. 7 If you're lucky enough to have 8 healthcare insurance in this state, you are 9 required in most cases for some modest 10 copayment. We believe that should be placed 11 for everyone in the prison system who gets 12 medical care at the expense of our taxpayers. 13 Before I sit down, I'd just like to 14 address one other thing. I don't know how 15 many of you have visited our prison facilities 16 or visited the healthcare systems in our 17 prisons. But I have, and I've heard from the 18 doctors who work there, the physician's 19 assistants who work there, and from the 20 correction officers who work there. And they 21 can tell you, as they've told me time and 22 again, that there are literally hundreds of 23 inmates in our prison system that are using 24 sick call as a form of sport; in effect, a 25 hobby by many who are trying to get out of the

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(518) 371-8910 1 daily routine of prison and utilize sick call 2 as a way to get out of that routine -- whether 3 it be to avoid work, avoid the prison 4 drudgery. 5 Whatever their motives, they're 6 using sick call not because they're sick, but 7 because they want something to do. And those 8 are the folks that -- the inmates that we are 9 focusing this measure's attention on. 10 We believe the taxpayers deserve 11 better. We believe that those who are abusing 12 the system should be held accountable. And 13 frankly, a modest copayment would tell the 14 abusers, find another hobby. That we believe 15 that the hobby paid for at taxpayers' expense 16 cannot be justified to the senior citizen, to 17 the person on Social Security that is 18 scratching to get the amount of money 19 necessary for their own copayment. 20 Frankly, this debate is clouded too 21 often by those who are saying our healthcare 22 system is inferior, we need to do more. Our 23 conference is not denying that we should do as 24 much as we possibly can to help those who are 25 sick in our prison system. What we're only

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(518) 371-8910 1 saying to you is to establish equity and to 2 provide the same type of equity to those that 3 are not breaking the law. That, in effect, 4 seeing that those who are breaking the law pay 5 the same type of bill. 6 Madam President, that's why I'm 7 supporting this legislation. 8 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Volker. 9 SENATOR VOLKER: Madam President, 10 I just -- the reason I'm rising is that I'd 11 like to see some of those so-called reports 12 and studies. First of all, I don't consider 13 The New York Times to be a real reputable 14 report on the prison system. 15 I have to tell you something about 16 the New York prison system. I've been 17 involved one way or another for 34 years in 18 helping to oversee the prison system. I've 19 watched when the Attica riot occurred back in 20 '71. I'm the first to admit to you that 21 healthcare in the New York prison system was 22 not the greatest. 23 I would have to say, in my humble 24 opinion -- and I don't know this for sure, but 25 I do know we spend more money on inmates than

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(518) 371-8910 1 any system in the country. I believe we now 2 have the finest healthcare system in the 3 United States of America. Obviously, I can't 4 say -- I can tell you one thing. It's a heck 5 of a lot better than California. California 6 is a mess. 7 In fact, when our commissioner, who 8 I happen to think is the best commissioner in 9 the country, went out to California, he was 10 aghast. They have 175,000 inmates out there. 11 We have a little under 63,000. The reason 12 that's significant is in 1980, they had 40,000 13 and we had 40,000. Think about that. 14 The California prison system is in 15 chaos. They even asked -- well, rumor has it 16 that they asked Glenn Goord if he'd be 17 interested in taking that system over, and he 18 just laughed at them. There's no way that 19 system is anything close to ours. 20 And let me tell you something else. 21 I don't know who did a study on health, but 22 someday, if you want, come on up to my 23 district. There's a hospital in Erie County 24 at Wende -- it's called Wende. It's kind of 25 embarrassing, because it's the best new

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(518) 371-8910 1 hospital in all of upstate New York. It 2 treats inmates. Specifically, it treats 3 inmates with severe problems. 4 The inmates who say they're not 5 being treated are phoney, I'll tell you right 6 now. In fact, remember this. Most of the 7 problems we have in our prison system, they 8 don't come from inside the prison, they come 9 from outside. We get a lot of prisoners with 10 TB and with AIDS problems and all kinds of 11 hepatitis B, which is a lot of people. We 12 have people from all over the state there. 13 Frankly, I happen to know of 14 inmates who want to stay in prison to get 15 better healthcare than they can get outside. 16 I defy you to show me any reliable study that 17 shows that the corrections system in New York 18 has poorer healthcare than some of the average 19 neighborhoods in this country. It is 20 ridiculous. In fact, the Times Union has said 21 that too, because anybody that criticizes the 22 corrections system, the Times Union will 23 repeat it. 24 But I will tell you this. George 25 Pataki -- and I'm not supposed to say good

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(518) 371-8910 1 things about George, because his numbers are 2 down, but I don't care. Of all the 3 governors -- and I've been here with a lot of 4 governors. I have to say to you that our 5 system now, in my humble opinion, is running 6 better, the healthcare is better, the 7 supervision is better than it has ever been in 8 this state's history. And I'll put this 9 system in New York above any system in the 10 country. 11 And I have to tell you, certainly 12 Senator Nozzolio's observations of the 13 system -- I know he will tell you the same 14 thing, and he's been very helpful to make sure 15 that system stays what it is. But I know a 16 lot of doctors in the system. One, I'll admit 17 to you, who was the head of medical at Attica, 18 happened to be my doctor. He's gone now, he's 19 retired. But he used to tell me stories about 20 what they did in the old days before what they 21 do now. 22 The amount of money that goes in to 23 take care of inmates is substantial. But 24 there's a problem. One of the reasons that 25 they decided to build a hospital is because

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(518) 371-8910 1 the inmates wanted always to go into the major 2 cities -- and that, in this case, would be 3 Buffalo -- so they could get a ride. And they 4 wanted to go there, and they'd feign injuries 5 or sickness or whatever. And of course under 6 the federal rules and under all the rules, 7 you've got to take them. So they would take 8 them. But what they found was it was getting 9 dangerous and expensive. That's one of the 10 reasons that they built this gorgeous 11 hospital. 12 But I'll just finish by saying I've 13 been in a lot of prisons. I know Senator 14 Nozzolio has been in a lot more than I have. 15 But I have not seen bad medical care in any 16 prison in our system. 17 I'll be the first to confess to 18 you, maybe twenty years ago it was nowhere 19 near as good as it is now, because we put the 20 money into it, we put the doctors into it, and 21 we put the people in it. And some of the 22 people who complain about the system were 23 helpful in getting better care. I'm the first 24 to admit that. I hate to admit it, but it's 25 true.

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(518) 371-8910 1 But I have to tell you, I just 2 don't buy it that our prison healthcare system 3 is bad. And I have never seen a report -- a 4 legitimate report -- that says that. 5 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Parker. 6 SENATOR PARKER: Thank you, Madam 7 President. On the bill. 8 THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed 9 on the bill. 10 SENATOR PARKER: I really hadn't 11 intended on speaking on this bill, but I've 12 been compelled to. 13 I think -- I want to thank Senator 14 Nozzolio with bringing this important issue, 15 as he always does, really bringing important 16 issues -- and this is something we ought to be 17 debating and discussing. So thank you. 18 I think that you are absolutely 19 right when you look at what's happening in our 20 prisons and say we really need to be providing 21 some relief to administrators, to nurses, to 22 doctors, to people who are there trying to do 23 their jobs and being side-tracked from doing 24 it. I'm not clear that this bill is the way 25 to do it, but I'm certainly with you and I

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(518) 371-8910 1 think we should continue to struggle through 2 our attempts to get this done. 3 People have talked about their 4 experiences. I unfortunately have a great 5 deal of experience with New York State 6 prisons. I've had family members, I've had -- 7 my brother was in a New York State prison for 8 a great deal of time -- as a matter of fact, 9 was in an AIDS ward and died in the AIDS ward 10 back in 1988. So I've spent more -- and this 11 is not something I ever thought I would be 12 standing on the floor of the Senate kind of 13 confessing to. 14 But as I hear people talking about, 15 you know, inmates wanting to be in -- you 16 know, people staying in a prison, I'm just 17 kind of outraged that anybody would think that 18 somebody would want to be in prison to get 19 medical care. And although the medical care 20 on the streets of the city of New York and in 21 the state of New York are not what they ought 22 to be, they're certainly, you know, better 23 than being in prison. 24 And I'm not sure where people -- if 25 people know of health clinics or hospitals

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(518) 371-8910 1 that are worse than prison hospitals, they 2 ought to be reporting them to the Department 3 of Health today. And in fact I will help you 4 fill out the forms and the paperwork, my 5 office will write the letters today to make 6 sure that we get some people into those 7 hospitals and clinics if they're worse than 8 the ones that we're finding in prison. 9 Access to affordable, quality 10 healthcare really should be a right of every 11 single person in this country, let alone the 12 state of New York. And I'm sure there's not a 13 person in this body who would disagree with 14 that. And I think that's where we ought to be 15 going with our proposals, with our 16 legislation, is looking at how we in fact 17 create a healthier society overall. 18 And I think that Senator Volker is 19 absolutely right when he talks about the fact 20 that, you know, many people come to prison 21 sick. And that's really an indictment of not 22 the prison system, but it's an indictment of 23 our overall health system. And we ought to be 24 figuring out how do we in fact make healthcare 25 more accessible and more -- and how do we

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(518) 371-8910 1 raise the quality of that healthcare. 2 I'm not clear that this bill does 3 that. In fact, I think that this bill, 4 despite its good intention, in fact 5 discourages people from going to the doctor, 6 people who may in fact have real needs, people 7 who may have real concerns but in fact may not 8 have the real money that $7 represents in a 9 state facility where people are making, on 10 average, 17 cents a day or whatever they're 11 making. 12 We voted earlier on an amendment 13 that failed in this body that would have 14 lowered that number to 50 cents. I voted for 15 it, I thought it was a better move, but it's 16 not really, frankly, the move. We really 17 ought to be, in fact, making healthcare free. 18 Not just for prisoners, it ought to be free 19 for everybody. In fact, we ought to be trying 20 to figure out, you know, models that are based 21 on wellness. 22 In fact, people ought to be -- you 23 know, we ought to stop paying our doctors when 24 we get sick. This is what I suggest. Let's 25 write a bill: doctors get paid every month

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(518) 371-8910 1 you're not sick. The months you are sick, 2 they don't get paid. A wellness model; right? 3 Right now there's an economic incentive for 4 your doctor to keep you sick, because he gets 5 paid every time you come and sit in the 6 waiting room. So that's where we ought to be 7 going. We'd actually save money as a system, 8 we'd have a healthier society and we'd have 9 healthier people. 10 Again, I agree that in fact we do 11 have some problems in our system as it relates 12 to healthcare and how it's being abused. I 13 think that we ought to be working with the 14 Department of Corrections to in fact address 15 those issues. I'm not clear that this 16 legislative solution in fact is where we ought 17 to go, and so I'm going to vote no. 18 THE PRESIDENT: Does any other 19 member wish to be heard on this bill? 20 Senator Schneiderman. 21 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you, 22 Madam President. Very briefly. 23 I have to say I don't see that this 24 is a piece of legislation that is going 25 anywhere. I'm not afraid of -- at the risk of

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(518) 371-8910 1 sounding like Senator Volker -- I'm happy to 2 sound like Senator Volker. This is all 3 started many years ago when I was a police 4 officer -- no. 5 (Laughter.) 6 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: The issue 7 that is before us is very simple. This is a 8 bill that's been introduced since 1997, and 9 every year it gets less votes than it got the 10 year before. This is not happening. 11 Maybe part of the reason it's not 12 happening is if you look at the State of 13 California, which was discussed earlier, a 14 California state auditor's investigation 15 determined that it cost California 16 $3.2 million to collect $654,000 in copays. 17 So this would actually reduce the amount of 18 money available to our corrections system for 19 guards, for transportation, and for other 20 things. 21 This is not a good solution to the 22 problem. I would suggest that this is not 23 something -- maybe it helps to have this as an 24 issue to beat the Assembly up on. This is a 25 one-house bill that's not going anywhere.

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(518) 371-8910 1 There is not even a same-as bill in the 2 Assembly, although I know Assembly Member 3 Gunther has something similar. 4 Let's stop with the one-house 5 repetitive bill passing. Let's try and come 6 up with a solution to the problem of 7 healthcare in the prison system. And as 8 Senator Parker points out, let's make it a 9 part of the broader solution to the fact that 10 this is the state with the fastest-growing 11 pool of uninsured New Yorkers of any state in 12 the country. It is something that we need to 13 address. More people who don't go to doctors 14 make all of us less well and less safe. 15 I'm going to be voting no for the 16 same reasons I have voted no every other year 17 this has come to the floor. 18 Thank you, Madam President. 19 THE PRESIDENT: The debate is 20 closed. 21 The Secretary will ring the bell. 22 Read the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 24 act shall take effect on the 120th day. 25 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.

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(518) 371-8910 1 (The Secretary called the roll.) 2 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 3 the negative on Calendar Number 345 are 4 Senators Breslin, Coppola, Dilan, Duane, 5 Gonzalez, L. Krueger, Montgomery, Oppenheimer, 6 Parker, Sabini, Savino, Schneiderman, Serrano, 7 A. Smith, M. Smith, and Stavisky. 8 Absent from voting: Senator 9 Connor. 10 Ayes, 39. Nays, 16. 11 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 12 passed. 13 The Secretary will continue to 14 read. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 411, by Senator Little, Senate Print 3376D, an 17 act to amend the General Municipal Law. 18 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: 19 Explanation. 20 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Little, 21 an explanation has been requested. 22 SENATOR LITTLE: Thank you, Madam 23 President. 24 Before explaining this bill, I 25 would like to say what this bill is not. This

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(518) 371-8910 1 bill is not an IDA reform bill. Last year we 2 tried unsuccessfully to work with the Assembly 3 to do an IDA reform bill, which many members 4 on both sides of the aisle feel that there 5 should be some reform made to the IDA 6 policies. However, we were not able to reach 7 any kind of agreement. 8 But this bill is a more 9 straightforward bill that makes permanent the 10 IDA's authority to finance civic facility 11 projects, because that authority expires July 12 1, 2006. Last year we extended the authority 13 for one year. In previous years, we've 14 extended it for one year and three years. 15 This bill would make it permanent. 16 The legislation also removes the 17 $20 million cap for dormitories, public health 18 facilities, and senior housing. This is 19 necessary because in 1986, when IDAs were 20 given the ability to finance not-for-profit 21 projects, there was an unlimited amount of IDA 22 financing that could take place. In 1997, 23 dormitories, public health facilities and 24 senior housing projects were added to the list 25 of not-for-profits, and a temporary cap of

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(518) 371-8910 1 $20 million was put on these projects to see 2 how this whole thing worked. There have not 3 been problems with it, and it has worked 4 successfully, and we would like to see that 5 $20 million cap removed, as the cost has 6 escalated for many of these projects. 7 This is not about economic 8 development projects in that sense. It is 9 about financing our senior housing facilities, 10 libraries, YMCAs, group homes for the mentally 11 disabled. By making these provisions 12 permanent, we give them the ability to plan 13 and to apply and to know that they are going 14 to be able to get this kind of IDA funding. 15 The law has allowed over 1,000 16 not-for-profit projects with more than 17 $8 billion in investment since -- assisted by 18 IDAs since 1987. 19 I would also like to point out that 20 this bill is 3376D, which means that the bill 21 has been amended four times. We have a 22 same-as bill that's been filed in the Assembly 23 by Assemblyman Morelle, and we have worked 24 hard to reach agreement so that we could get 25 this bill passed through both houses.

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(518) 371-8910 1 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Krueger. 2 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you, 3 Madam President. On the bill. 4 THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed. 5 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 6 I appreciate Senator Little's 7 explanation. And I agree with her, this is 8 not an IDA reform bill. My frustration is: 9 Where is our IDA reform bill? 10 We did a one-year extender last 11 year in the hopes that both houses would be 12 moving forward with significant reforms to the 13 models used by Industrial Development 14 Agencies. And it's a year later, and we're 15 not there. 16 And I also agree this bill has been 17 modified and primarily addresses the 18 sunsetting for not-for-profit civic 19 organizations, who I know, based on the large 20 number of calls I've been getting today, are 21 very worried about the sunsetting provisions 22 of this bill. 23 Although that raises for me the 24 second issue: Why is this bill not just 25 exclusively, then, addressing the issue of

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(518) 371-8910 1 sunsetting for not-for-profit organizations 2 hoping to be able to continue to draw down 3 bonds through IDAs? 4 I am disturbed that we are, in this 5 bill, doing a permanent lifting of a cap 6 currently at $20 million for civic facilities. 7 I don't think it is necessary to do a 8 permanent lifting of a cap. I'm not sure why 9 it's required to do a permanent anything for 10 IDAs, since we are still in the process of 11 hoping we have serious reform of IDAs. 12 I'm equally concerned that in this 13 bill we would be making permanent certain 14 restrictions in IDAs that I don't think are 15 what any of us in this house or the other 16 house think are the right long-term model for 17 IDAs. 18 This would make permanent the 19 current restriction that antipirating 20 provisions applied only if an occupant moves 21 from one area of the state to another. But 22 we've never defined "area." What is an area, 23 in moving from one to another? 24 We've seen, in Albany alone 25 recently, two well-known organizations take

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(518) 371-8910 1 advantage of IDA provisions when they simply 2 moved, in one case literally down the block. 3 Both HANYS and Time Warner drew down on the 4 advantages of IDAs when they didn't move or 5 create new jobs in any serious way. 6 I'm also concerned that we 7 shouldn't be making permanent restrictions 8 that are vague at best when it comes to 9 exemptions on retail sales. I am concerned 10 that even for not-for-profit projects and the 11 projects that would be allowed permanently 12 through this bill, there is no mechanism, as 13 there is none for any other IDA deal, that 14 there's any review by either the PACB board, 15 Public Authority Control Board, or the 16 Comptroller's office. 17 I think that all of the research 18 coming out in the last few years about what 19 works and doesn't work in state oversight of 20 programs where we play a role is how important 21 it is to have standards and a review process. 22 And if this bill is passed and made permanent 23 law, we have also not built in these review 24 processes or a reasonable set of 25 across-the-board standards for the sections of

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(518) 371-8910 1 IDA approvals that this bill would again make 2 permanent in the law. 3 Just to highlight some of the 4 issues that are not in this bill, as Senator 5 Little said, and again are the problems before 6 us -- although I suppose the good news is this 7 is not the last week of session, and there's 8 still time to work through IDA reform 9 legislation -- that we need to truly evaluate 10 the successes and failures and problems of 11 IDAs, whether in fact they are doing a good 12 job of remaining accountable and ensuring 13 adequate public input into their proposed 14 projects on a local level, whether the local 15 governments have a say in the decisions that 16 are made and the projects that are approved. 17 Again, most IDA projects are not 18 not-for-profit civic projects but, rather, 19 economic development, industrial development 20 projects, projects where the IDAs have the 21 authority to do lease deals where there are no 22 taxes paid, where there is no -- there are no 23 clawback provisions if the jobs are not 24 delivered, where land is taken off the tax 25 rolls, perhaps permanently, as part of the

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(518) 371-8910 1 arrangements between the IDAs and the 2 companies they're doing business with. 3 I think it is critical that we not 4 continue to go forward with these kind of 5 models in the long term for the State of 6 New York. Every time there's an IDA deal for 7 an economic development project and taxes are 8 exempted or property is taken off the local 9 tax rolls, let's remember that that's a tax 10 dollar not collected for the school district 11 or by the locality or by the county. 12 That means every time somebody 13 isn't paying their taxes because of an IDA 14 arrangement, someone else at the local level 15 is paying those monies instead. The costs 16 don't go down for the localities, there is 17 just a shift in who is paying those taxes and 18 who is not. And there hasn't been nearly 19 enough review in the past about what has been 20 happening through IDAs all over the state of 21 New York. 22 I'm also equally concerned that 23 besides not having adequate oversight or 24 adequate standardized reporting requirements 25 or ensuring enforceable clawback penalties or

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(518) 371-8910 1 ensuring transparency of who's making the 2 decisions about who gets what deals through 3 IDAs, that we're also not evaluating whether 4 these IDAs have the technical capacity to 5 provide the services being asked of them. 6 A recent report shows that the 7 average IDA has only one to three employees. 8 Is it realistic to imagine that a thorough 9 analysis is being done of each of these deals 10 around the state with operations where there 11 may be only one employee or, in some cases, 12 only a part-time employee? 13 I'm also concerned that we have let 14 this go for so long between our failure to 15 reform IDAs or evaluate the role of LDCs, 16 local development corporations, in 17 relationship to Industrial Development 18 Agencies, that one report highlighted that 19 Erie County had 35 area municipalities and 20 42 separate government agencies within the 21 county with the authority to make economic 22 development funds available, 16 of which were 23 local development agencies, six of which were 24 IDAs. 25 Without a serious evaluation -- no,

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(518) 371-8910 1 to be fair, there have been serious 2 evaluations. The Comptroller's office has put 3 out any number of reports with 4 recommendations, including a new report that 5 came out this weekend. The Empire State 6 Development Corporation contracted for an 7 evaluation of the IDAs back in April '98 that 8 put out a series of recommendations. I have 9 their report. The Fiscal Policy Institute has 10 made recommendations and done evaluations. 11 Assembly Member Sweeney has a very detailed 12 bill about IDA reform. 13 I don't know that we need a lot of 14 time for evaluation. The evaluations have 15 been done. What we need is to ensure that we 16 pass IDA reform legislation in this house and 17 the Assembly as well before we leave this 18 year. 19 And while it is correct that this 20 bill deals with just one set of subsections 21 within the overarching concerns about IDAs, I 22 think it would be a mistake to move forward 23 and make permanent the prohibitions in this 24 bill, given the fact that I think there is 25 such a strong argument for full IDA reform

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(518) 371-8910 1 before we leave session this year. 2 So I would urge my colleagues not 3 to support this bill but to please, please 4 make sure that we move forward, in a joint 5 conference committee of both houses, to 6 actually address the real problems of IDAs 7 before this session is over. We still have 8 time to do so. 9 And again, I would urge that if 10 Senator Little wants to address the concerns 11 unique to civic organizations within this bill 12 that she consider a bill that just addresses 13 those concerns, not the broader permanency of 14 current sections of the law that also need 15 reform. 16 Thank you, Madam President. 17 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Little. 18 SENATOR LITTLE: Thank you, Madam 19 President. On the bill, if I may. 20 As Senator Krueger said, this is 21 not the end of our session. It is April 10th, 22 I believe, and we have plenty of time between 23 now and the end of session to work on an IDA 24 reform. 25 Last year we passed the public

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(518) 371-8910 1 authorities reform legislation, and in many 2 ways that has some effect on IDAs. I have 3 worked with Assemblyman Sweeney last year. We 4 tried to have an agreed-upon bill. I continue 5 to work with him, and hopefully we will. 6 However, I don't believe that we 7 should hold our public health facilities, our 8 continuing care retirement communities, and 9 these not-for-profits hostage while we try to 10 work out the IDA reform legislation. 11 Therefore, I would hope that 12 everyone would consider voting for this bill 13 to allow these not-for-profit IDAs to be able 14 to plan ahead, to know that their projects can 15 be applied for, and to extend this bill by 16 making it permanent so that they are not held 17 hostage every year or every two or three years 18 while we try to do this again. 19 So I would ask everyone to consider 20 voting for the bill. Thank you. 21 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Sabini. 22 SENATOR SABINI: Madam President, 23 if the sponsor would yield for a few 24 questions. 25 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Little,

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(518) 371-8910 1 will you yield for a question? 2 SENATOR LITTLE: Yes, I will. 3 THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed 4 with a question. 5 SENATOR SABINI: Through you, 6 Madam President, I'm just wondering if the 7 sponsor can tell us why this method of funding 8 would be better or more efficient or cheaper 9 than the Dormitory Authority's methods that 10 they already offer under the law. 11 SENATOR LITTLE: Under the 12 Dormitory Authority funding, I believe you 13 have to have insurance and go through -- not 14 always have the lowest interest rate as well. 15 The other thing that's important 16 about extending -- making this bill permanent 17 and allowing these public health facilities is 18 the current IDA financing is available for, 19 for instance, a $50 million parking garage at 20 a hospital or healthcare facility, but it is 21 not available for a $21 million cancer center. 22 There is a cap on anything they would use for 23 public health facilities. 24 This bill also has a great deal of 25 support, in that it's supported by the

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(518) 371-8910 1 New York Farm Bureau, New York State Economic 2 Development, HANYS, the New York City Mayor's 3 Office, NYSAC, the Alliance of Long Island 4 Agencies, NYAHSA, the Interagency Council of 5 Mental Retardation and Developmental 6 Disabilities, all of whom feel that this is an 7 important means of financing their 8 not-for-profit facilities. 9 SENATOR SABINI: Madam President, 10 if the sponsor would continue to yield. 11 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Little, 12 will you yield for another question? 13 SENATOR LITTLE: Yes. 14 THE PRESIDENT: She will. You 15 may proceed, Senator. 16 SENATOR SABINI: I'm wondering, 17 since the sponsor has talked about how this is 18 not a reform bill -- and I agree it's not -- 19 why does Section 3 on page 2 of the bill go to 20 such lengths to make the antipiracy provisions 21 that many of us feel are so inadequate 22 permanent? 23 SENATOR LITTLE: Well, actually, 24 in response, there are some things that have 25 been considered IDA reforms that expire

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(518) 371-8910 1 July 1st of 2006, and so we intend so make 2 those permanent as well. And one of those is 3 the provision which prohibits the financing of 4 retail projects. Another is the uniform tax 5 exemption policy, which would expire on July 6 of '06. 7 Therefore, in doing what we're 8 doing to the bill, with the dormitories, 9 public health facilities, and senior housing 10 not-for-profit projects, because that expires 11 July 1, 2006, we would also make permanent the 12 other provisions which expire in 2006 which 13 are in the bill, in the IDA legislation, and 14 are working. 15 SENATOR SABINI: Madam President, 16 if the sponsor would continue to yield. 17 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Little, 18 will you yield? 19 SENATOR LITTLE: Yes. 20 THE PRESIDENT: She does yield, 21 Senator. 22 SENATOR SABINI: I'm wondering if 23 the sponsor then thinks that the antipiracy 24 provisions that we're making permanent are 25 adequate enough for continuing fiscally

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(518) 371-8910 1 prudent operations of the state. 2 SENATOR LITTLE: Well, whether or 3 not they're adequate enough I guess depends on 4 which side you're on. But we have not been 5 able to come -- 6 SENATOR SABINI: That's why I was 7 asking. 8 SENATOR LITTLE: We have not been 9 able to come to agreement on that. And that's 10 one of the things that would come in under an 11 IDA reform legislation, and it's something 12 that we continue to work on. 13 And nothing -- there's absolutely 14 nothing in this piece of legislation we're 15 doing today that precludes us from moving 16 forward with an IDA reform package. 17 SENATOR SABINI: Madam President, 18 on the bill. 19 THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed 20 on the bill, Senator. 21 SENATOR SABINI: I agree with the 22 sponsor there's nothing that precludes us from 23 moving forward with IDA reform. However, I 24 think that this makes the starting line for 25 that reform a little further back and creates

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(518) 371-8910 1 a few more hurdles to that reform. 2 I don't think this is a step in the 3 right direction. I think the whole system 4 needs to be overhauled and looked at. I find 5 it ironic that Sections 1 and 2 of this bill 6 deal with agriculture, when the bonds we're 7 talking about are industrial by title. The 8 agriculture business in our state is an 9 important one, and maybe we should have a 10 special series of bonds under a separate 11 program that works better for agriculture. 12 THE PRESIDENT: Excuse me, 13 Senator Sabini. 14 Senator Little. 15 SENATOR LITTLE: Thank you. 16 Would Senator Sabini yield for a question? 17 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Sabini, 18 will you yield? 19 SENATOR LITTLE: When I'm 20 through, Madam President, I'll be happy to. 21 THE PRESIDENT: You may finish 22 your answer, Senator. 23 SENATOR SABINI: So I'm concerned 24 this is really not going to help what I think 25 the Majority, what I know the Comptroller,

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(518) 371-8910 1 what I know our conference is hoping for, 2 which is true authority reform. We made a 3 step that way last year. 4 I don't think -- this step is 5 either a lockstep or a step back, and 6 therefore I am not going to be voting for this 7 bill until I see something a little better. 8 And I'll be happy to yield. 9 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Little. 10 SENATOR LITTLE: Thank you. 11 Senator Sabini, do you have print 12 3376D? Because we made several adjustments to 13 this bill to make it agreeable, and we took 14 out the agriculture part. 15 SENATOR SABINI: Madam President, 16 through you, the last copy I saw before I 17 arrived here today was not D, it was C. 18 SENATOR LITTLE: Well, D does not 19 have the agriculture part in it. It doesn't 20 have the part where you could lease a section 21 of the building to a municipality either. 22 So we've done a lot of changes to 23 this to try to make it agreeable. 24 SENATOR SABINI: Madam President, 25 through you, if I could answer.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Yes, the bill has had a lot of 2 changes. That's why it's on the D print. And 3 I apologize for not knowing that those two 4 sections, Sections 1 and 2 were changed. 5 But the fact of the matter is that 6 on the whole, I don't think this bill 7 necessarily addresses the progress we're 8 trying to make on authority reform, and I'm 9 still going to be voting against it. 10 Thank you. 11 THE PRESIDENT: Does any other 12 member wish to be heard on this bill? 13 Then the debate is closed. 14 The Secretary will ring the bell. 15 Read the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll. 19 (The Secretary called the roll.) 20 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 21 the negative on Calendar Number 411 are 22 Senators Coppola, Dilan, Duane, Gonzalez, 23 Hannon, L. Krueger, Maziarz, Parker, Sabini, 24 Schneiderman, Serrano, Senator A. Smith and 25 Stavisky.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Ayes, 43. Nays, 13. 2 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is 3 passed. 4 Senator Skelos, that completes the 5 calendar. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, Madam 7 President. Is there any further business at 8 the desk? 9 THE PRESIDENT: No, there isn't, 10 Senator. 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you please 12 recognize Senator Savino. 13 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Sabini. 14 Senator Savino, excuse me. 15 SENATOR SAVINO: Thank you, Madam 16 President. 17 Madam President, I believe I have a 18 motion at the desk. I would ask that it be 19 called up at this time. 20 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary 21 will read. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senate Print 23 6472A, by Senator Savino, an act to amend the 24 Labor Law. 25 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Sabini --

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(518) 371-8910 1 this time I was looking, too. 2 Senator Savino. 3 SENATOR SAVINO: Thank you, Madam 4 President. 5 I have a bill that I've introduced 6 called the Fair Share Healthcare Fund. And 7 the Fair Share Healthcare Fund would require 8 certain employers to provide minimum 9 healthcare benefits for their employees. 10 This bill is intended to make all 11 covered employers of the state spend a minimum 12 level of funding on healthcare for their 13 employees, based on the number of hours that 14 they work in the year, in order to reduce the 15 burden on the state and on taxpayers. 16 Specifically, we're talking about 17 employers who operate at least one retail 18 store and have at least 500 employees 19 statewide, where groceries or other foods are 20 sold for off-site consumption and where either 21 10,000 square feet or 5 percent of the overall 22 floor space in a store containing at least 23 100,000 square feet are dedicated to the sale 24 of groceries, that they provide minimum 25 healthcare for their employees.

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(518) 371-8910 1 No employee of a multibillion- 2 dollar corporation or a multinational company, 3 such as Wal-Mart, should be forced to go 4 without medical care, nor should they be 5 forced to resort to Medicaid. This bill will 6 ensure that large employers provide decent 7 health benefits, ensuring that thousands of 8 uninsured New Yorkers who work full-time for 9 large employers will get healthcare. 10 Just as the minimum wage sets the 11 standards for employee wages, this bill would 12 set the standard for minimum healthcare 13 coverage. 14 Taxpayers should not be required to 15 subsidize private businesses by providing 16 healthcare benefits to their employees. 17 Currently, many businesses do the right thing 18 and they struggle every day to provide minimum 19 healthcare to their employees. But these 20 responsible businesses are being harmed as 21 they try to compete against companies that 22 refuse to pay their fair share for their 23 employees' health benefits. Responsible 24 employers should not be penalized for 25 providing health insurance to their employees.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Stores such as Wal-Mart that do not 2 offer their employees healthcare benefits are 3 able to sell their products for a much lower 4 price than their competitors. But who ends up 5 paying for the difference? Taxpayers do. 6 This bill would end the business 7 model that says "save money by not paying 8 benefits and hit your competitors with those 9 costs." I urge my colleagues to join me in 10 supporting this important step toward 11 providing every New Yorker with quality, 12 affordable healthcare. 13 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, 14 Senator Savino. 15 All those members in favor of the 16 petition out of committee please signify by 17 raising your hand. 18 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 19 agreement are Senators Breslin, Connor, 20 Coppola, Dilan, Duane, Gonzalez, Klein, 21 L. Krueger, C. Kruger, Montgomery, 22 Oppenheimer, Parker, Sabini, Savino, 23 Schneiderman, Serrano, A. Smith, M. Smith, 24 Stachowski, Stavisky and Valesky. 25 THE PRESIDENT: The petition out

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(518) 371-8910 1 of committee is not agreed to. 2 Senator Skelos. 3 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 4 there being no further business to come before 5 the Senate, I move we stand adjourned until 6 Tuesday, April 11th, at 11:00 a.m. 7 THE PRESIDENT: On motion, the 8 Senate now stands adjourned until Tuesday, 9 April 11th, at 11:00 a.m. 10 (Whereupon, at 4:27 p.m., the 11 Senate adjourned.) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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