Tuesday, May 8, 2007

1 NEW YORK STATE SENATE 2 3 4 THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 May 8, 2007 11 3:07 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 SENATOR JOSEPH A. GRIFFO, Acting President 19 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary 20 21 22 23 24 25

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(518) 371-8910 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 3 Senate will come to order. 4 I ask everyone present to please 5 rise and repeat with me the Pledge of 6 Allegiance to the Flag. 7 (Whereupon, the assemblage recited 8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 9 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Today 10 we are pleased to have with us, for the 11 invocation, Reverend Ron Stelzer, pastor of 12 Our Savior Lutheran Church in Centereach. 13 Reverend. 14 REVEREND STELZER: Thank you. 15 Our Father in heaven, in the 16 formative days of this nation Benjamin 17 Franklin called our assembled leaders to begin 18 each session with prayer, quoting from the 19 Bible: "Unless the Lord builds the house, 20 those who build it labor in vain. Unless the 21 Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays 22 awake in vain." 23 Today we recognize that without 24 Your blessing our best efforts, our highest 25 human wisdom, our vast resources are simply

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(518) 371-8910 1 not enough. 2 Remind us that we will always be 3 one nation under God, not one over God or 4 exempt from God. May we not put "In God We 5 Trust" on the periphery of our lives, but 6 front and center. 7 Grant us wisdom to do justice, love 8 kindness, and walk humbly before our God. 9 Preserve us from war, terror and civil strife, 10 and help us to govern with the realization 11 that one day we will not answer to the polling 12 booths but stand before the judgment seat of 13 Christ and long for your approbation: "Well 14 done, good and faithful servant." 15 And thank You for loving this world 16 full of lost mankind, subject to sin and its 17 consequences, loving us so much that You sent 18 us Your son, our Savior, in whose name I pray. 19 Amen. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Reading 21 of the Journal. 22 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 23 Monday, May 7, the Senate met pursuant to 24 adjournment. The Journal of Sunday, May 6, 25 was read and approved. On motion, Senate

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(518) 371-8910 1 adjourned. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Without 3 objection, the Journal stands approved as 4 read. 5 Presentation of petitions. 6 Messages from the Assembly. 7 Messages from the Governor. 8 Reports of standing committees. 9 The Secretary will read. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson, 11 from the Committee on Finance, reports the 12 following nomination. 13 As a member of the Niagara Frontier 14 Transportation Authority, Cesar A. Cabrera, of 15 Buffalo. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 17 Johnson. 18 SENATOR JOHNSON: Move the 19 nomination. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 21 question is on the nomination of Mr. Cesar 22 Cabrera, of Buffalo. 23 Senator Stachowski. 24 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 25 President, I'd just like to rise to second the

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(518) 371-8910 1 nomination of Cesar Cabrera of Buffalo, a 2 great community activist, long record of 3 community involvement. 4 A voice for the community on this 5 board will be very important and I think a 6 real positive influence to a board that 7 sometimes seemed to not have the best 8 interests of the people of the community when 9 they made some of their decisions. 10 So I'm very happy to have this 11 opportunity to stand and commend the Governor 12 for his appointment and congratulate Cesar on 13 his new appointment to the NFTA board. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 15 question is on the nomination of Cesar A. 16 Cabrera, of Buffalo, for appointment to the 17 Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority. 18 All in favor signify by saying aye. 19 (Response of "Aye.") 20 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: 21 Opposed, nay. 22 (No response.) 23 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Mr. 24 Cabrera is hereby confirmed. Congratulations 25 and best wishes.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Reports of select committees. 2 Communications and reports from 3 state officers. 4 Motions and resolutions. 5 Senator Farley. 6 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, 7 Mr. President. 8 On behalf of Senator Maziarz, on 9 page 10 I offer the following amendments to 10 Calendar Number 102, Senate Print 105, and I 11 ask that this bill retain its place on the 12 Third Reading Calendar. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 14 amendments are received and adopted, and the 15 bill will retain its place on the Third 16 Reading Calendar. 17 Senator Skelos. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 19 if we could adopt the Resolution Calendar, 20 with the exception of Resolutions 1942 and 21 1971. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: All in 23 favor of adopting the Resolution Calendar, 24 with the stated exceptions, signify by saying 25 aye.

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(518) 371-8910 1 (Response of "Aye.") 2 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: 3 Opposed, nay. 4 (No response.) 5 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 6 Resolution Calendar is adopted. 7 Senator Skelos. 8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 9 Resolution 1971, by Senator Golden, is at the 10 desk. If we could have the title read and 11 move for its immediate adoption. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 13 Secretary will read. 14 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 15 Golden, Legislative Resolution Number 1971, 16 honoring RoseMarie Carro upon the occasion of 17 her designation as recipient of the New York 18 State Senior Citizen of the Year Award. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 20 Golden. 21 SENATOR GOLDEN: Thank you, 22 Mr. President. 23 It's a privilege to rise today and 24 to talk about our New York State Citizen of 25 the Year.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Many seniors have gathered around 2 the state today in the Capitol, and they've 3 honored seniors from each county across this 4 great state. And there were two chosen. And 5 today RoseMarie Carro, one of those chosen to 6 be our Senior of the Year for the State of 7 New York is up in the balcony, joined by her 8 daughter Maria, son Michael, and her friend 9 Mary Troise. 10 RoseMarie has made a difference. 11 She's made a difference in the lives of people 12 that live in the Marine Park area of Brooklyn 13 and across the City and State of New York. 14 It's the points of light that those seniors 15 make, the difference they make each and every 16 today in the lives of the families that live 17 in our communities, and the volunteerism and 18 the work that they do. 19 RoseMarie was born and raised in 20 Brooklyn, New York, and she is a graduate of 21 Sarah J. Hale Vocational High School. She 22 married a great man, Carmine Carro, in 1956, 23 and moved to Marine Park, where they raised 24 their children. 25 While raising her family, she

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(518) 371-8910 1 continued her education at the City Tech 2 College, majoring in hotel and restaurant 3 management. Working for over 30 years in two 4 family-owned businesses, Sweet Caroline 5 Caterers and Madison Steak House, RoseMarie 6 was the matriarch of the family business. 7 She continued her career in the 8 food industry with the New York City Board of 9 Education as a HACCP appointee, with a 10 certificate from Cooks College at Rutgers 11 College, until she retired in 2003. 12 For 24 years, she has been an 13 active member of the Marine Park Civic 14 Association, where she proudly holds the 15 office of fourth vice president of the 16 association. 17 She lost her husband recently, a 18 great man, and the two of them were 19 instrumental in helping to build the community 20 of Marine Park and the different events that 21 they would hold, whether it be the Haunted 22 Halloween Walk or the Back to School Fair or 23 Santa in the Park or the tons of events that 24 they would do each and every year, year after 25 year, to keep that community alive.

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(518) 371-8910 1 And when you look around the 2 communities, you look for people and community 3 groups that keep those communities alive. 4 Because when those communities are alive, 5 people are satisfied and happy and they want 6 to live in a community that's on fire. 7 And she has definitely made a 8 difference, RoseMarie. And she is not only 9 active in being able to take care of Marine 10 Park Civic, but she's also the treasurer of 11 the Brigham Park Number 2 board of directors, 12 where she started a senior group where they 13 meet two days a week and have lunch. 14 She's also effective with the 15 Active Adults, which is a new senior group 16 which meets each and every week over in the 17 Marine Park area. They don't want to be 18 called seniors, so they call themselves 19 "active adults" as they go around the city and 20 they're instrumental in helping other seniors. 21 And we're very thankful for the 22 work that she's been able to do as a member of 23 the Resurrection Church and as a person that 24 works at Beth Israel hospital, volunteering, 25 and doing the same thing with the Crown

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(518) 371-8910 1 Nursing Home. 2 RoseMarie, we thank you, and we 3 thank all the seniors that make a difference 4 in our state. Thank you for being one of 5 them. 6 (Applause.) 7 SENATOR GOLDEN: Thank you, 8 Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Thank 10 you, Senator Golden. 11 The question is on the resolution. 12 All in favor signify by saying aye. 13 (Response of "Aye.") 14 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: 15 Opposed, nay. 16 (No response.) 17 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 18 resolution is adopted. 19 We congratulate RoseMarie. Our 20 best wishes. 21 (Applause.) 22 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 23 Skelos. 24 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 25 Resolution 1942, by Senator Stavisky, is at

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(518) 371-8910 1 the desk. If we could have the title read, 2 move for its immediate adoption, and Senator 3 Stavisky would like to open it up for 4 cosponsorship. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 6 Secretary will read. 7 THE SECRETARY: By Senator 8 Stavisky, Legislative Resolution Number 1942, 9 memorializing Governor Eliot Spitzer to 10 proclaim May 2007 as Asian-American Heritage 11 Month in the State of New York in conjunction 12 with the National Asian Pacific American 13 Heritage Month. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 15 Stavisky. 16 SENATOR STAVISKY: On the 17 resolution, Mr. President. 18 This resolution congratulates the 19 Asian-American community. And I am proud to 20 say that I represent approximately 100,000 21 Asian-Americans in the 16th Senate district. 22 They have come to the United States not 23 speaking the language, having a different 24 culture, but they have brought such a vibrancy 25 and a vitality not only to the business

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(518) 371-8910 1 community, but they have enhanced the 2 diversity and the social fabric of the entire 3 state of New York. 4 And I say it many times, but I am 5 very proud to represent so many 6 Asian-Americans in the New York State Senate, 7 as I know Senator Sabini is proud to represent 8 those who live in the Jackson Heights, 9 Elmhurst, Woodside area. 10 They have made such wonderful 11 contributions to our state. They continue to 12 do so. And I am invite anyone who wishes to 13 join the resolution to do so. 14 Thank you. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: On the 16 resolution, all in favor signify by saying 17 aye. 18 (Response of "Aye.") 19 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: 20 Opposed, nay. 21 (No response.) 22 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 23 resolution is carried and is open for 24 cosponsorship. If you do not choose to be a 25 cosponsor, please notify the desk.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 3 Resolution 2077 is at the desk by Senator 4 Bruno. If we could have the title read and 5 move for its immediate adoption. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 7 Secretary will read. 8 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Bruno, 9 Legislative Resolution Number 2077, honoring 10 Lee A. Bordick upon the occasion of his 11 retirement as superintendent of the 12 Lansingburgh Central School District, after 13 many years of distinguished service in 14 education. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 16 question is on the resolution. All in favor 17 signify by saying aye. 18 (Response of "Aye.") 19 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: 20 Opposed, nay. 21 (No response.) 22 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 23 resolution is carried. 24 Senator Skelos. 25 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,

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(518) 371-8910 1 we have one substitution. If we could make it 2 at this time. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 4 Secretary will read. 5 THE SECRETARY: On page 33, 6 Senator Volker moves to discharge, from the 7 Committee on Codes, Assembly Bill Number 7373 8 and substitute it for the identical Senate 9 Bill Number 3908, Third Reading Calendar 646. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: 11 Substitution ordered. 12 Senator Skelos. 13 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 14 now if we could go to the noncontroversial 15 reading of the calendar. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 17 Secretary will read. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 35, by Senator Morahan, Senate Print 568, an 20 act to amend the Mental Hygiene Law. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 24 act shall take effect immediately. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call

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(518) 371-8910 1 the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 56. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 5 bill is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 67, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 1263A, an 8 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to 9 unlawful operation. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 11 the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect on the first of 14 November. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 16 the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 55. Nays, 19 1. Senator Duane recorded in the negative. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 21 bill is passed. 22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 23 307, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 806, an 24 act to amend Chapter 340 of the Laws of 2005 25 amending the Insurance Law.

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 2 the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect immediately. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 6 the roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll.) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 57. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 10 bill is passed. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 339, by Senator Fuschillo, Senate Print 3543, 13 an act to amend the General Obligations Law. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 15 the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect immediately. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 19 the roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll.) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 57. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 23 bill is passed. 24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 25 374, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print

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(518) 371-8910 1 2062, an act to amend the General Obligations 2 Law. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 4 the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect immediately. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 8 the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 57. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 12 bill is passed. 13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 14 389, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 1810, an 15 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 17 the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 19 act shall take effect on the 60th day. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 21 the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 57. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 25 bill is passed.

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(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 390, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 2695B, an 3 act to amend the New York State Defense 4 Emergency Act. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 6 the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect immediately. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 10 the roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 57. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 14 bill is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 445, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 2892, an 17 act to amend the Racing, Pari-Mutuel Wagering 18 and Breeding Law. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 20 the last section. 21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 22 act shall take effect immediately. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 24 the roll. 25 (The Secretary called the roll.)

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(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 56. Nays, 2 2. Senators Duane and Padavan recorded in the 3 negative. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 5 bill is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 446, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 2895, an 8 act to amend the Racing, Pari-Mutuel Wagering 9 and Breeding Law. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 11 the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect immediately. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 15 the roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 57. Nays, 18 1. Senator Duane recorded in the negative. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 20 bill is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 447, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 2939, an 23 act to amend the General Municipal Law. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 25 the last section.

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(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 2 act shall take effect on the first of January 3 next succeeding. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 5 the roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 57. Nays, 8 2. Senators Duane and Padavan recorded in the 9 negative. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 11 bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 449, by Senator Bonacic, Senate Print 462, an 14 act to amend the Administrative Code of the 15 City of New York. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 17 the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 21 the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 25 bill is passed.

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(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 501, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 3 4038, an act to amend the New York City Civil 4 Court Act. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 6 the last section. 7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 8 act shall take effect on the 30th day. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 10 the roll. 11 (The Secretary called the roll.) 12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 14 bill is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 533, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 3877, an 17 act to amend the Penal Law. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 19 the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect on the first of 22 November. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 24 the roll. 25 (The Secretary called the roll.)

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(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 57. Nays, 2 2. Senators Duane and Perkins recorded in the 3 negative. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 5 bill is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 534, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 3886, an 8 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 10 the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect on the first of 13 September. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 15 the roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 19 bill is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 547, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 2771, an 22 act to amend the Tax Law. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: There 24 is a local fiscal impact note at the desk. 25 Read the last section.

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(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 4 the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 58. Nays, 7 1. Senator Valesky recorded in the negative. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 9 bill is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 571, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 1465A, an 12 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law. 13 SENATOR LaVALLE: Lay it aside, 14 please. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Lay it 16 aside. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 579, by Senator Winner, Senate Print 3316A, an 19 act to amend the Town Law. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 21 the last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 23 act shall take effect on the 180th day. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 25 the roll.

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(518) 371-8910 1 (The Secretary called the roll.) 2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 4 bill is passed. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 580, by Senator Alesi, Senate Print 34, an act 7 to amend the Business Corporation Law. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 9 the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 13 the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 17 bill is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 594, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 423, an 20 act to amend the Education Law. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This 24 act shall take effect on the 180th day. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call

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(518) 371-8910 1 the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 4 Stavisky, to explain her vote. 5 SENATOR STAVISKY: To explain my 6 vote. 7 I'm going to vote no on this bill. 8 Much as I believe in economic development, and 9 particularly in the Hudson Valley and other 10 parts of the state of New York, I think this 11 bill does not accomplish what it really 12 intends to do. There are parts of it I think 13 that are misleading. 14 For example, on page 2 it talks 15 about a knife museum located in Orange, 16 Sullivan or Ulster County which is devoted to 17 the public exhibition, et cetera, of knives, 18 and then it goes on, further down in that 19 section, to say "which is not located in a 20 city having a population of 1 million or 21 more," obviously meaning New York City. This 22 is superfluous. 23 Secondly, the bill talks about how 24 various people working for the museum will 25 have to be fingerprinted, but nowhere does it

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(518) 371-8910 1 say that if they come up with a positive hit 2 on the fingerprints if the individual has been 3 convicted of a felony, for example, that the 4 person should be disqualified from employment 5 or from operating such a knife museum. 6 And lastly, and what bothers me, is 7 on page 2, subdivision 7, it says that the 8 cutlery and knife museum shall be able to 9 "sell automatic knives to further their 10 activities to promote art, education, history 11 and science," et cetera. I think this does 12 not accomplish what it wishes to, and I vote 13 no. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 15 Stavisky will be recorded in the negative. 16 Announce the results. 17 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 18 the negative on Calendar Number 594 are 19 Senators L. Krueger, Marcellino and Stavisky. 20 Ayes, 56. Nays, 3. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 22 bill is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 609, by Senator Klein, Senate Print 2284, an 25 act to amend the Tax Law.

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 2 the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 4 act shall take effect on the first of the 5 calendar month next succeeding the 90th day. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 7 the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll.) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 11 bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 625, by Senator Bonacic, Senate Print 3445, an 14 act to amend the Executive Law. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 16 the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 20 the roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll.) 22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 58. Nays, 23 1. Senator Duane recorded in the negative. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 25 bill is passed.

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(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 628, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 3420, an 3 act to amend the General Business Law. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 5 the last section. 6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 7 act shall take effect on the 60th day. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 9 the roll. 10 (The Secretary called the roll.) 11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Can we 13 have order, please, in the chamber. 14 The bill is passed. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 645, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 3907, an 17 act to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 19 the last section. 20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 21 act shall take effect on the first of January. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 23 the roll. 24 (The Secretary called the roll.) 25 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59.

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 2 bill is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 646, substituted earlier today by Member of 5 the Assembly Jaffee, Assembly Print Number 6 7373, an act to amend the Civil Practice Law 7 and Rules. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 9 the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 13 the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 17 bill is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 651, by Senator Lanza, Senate Print 4053, an 20 act to amend the Penal Law. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 24 act shall take effect on the first of 25 November.

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 2 the roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll.) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 6 bill is passed. 7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 8 669, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 1466, an 9 act to amend the Education Law. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 11 the last section. 12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 13 act shall take effect on the 30th day. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 15 the roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 19 bill is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 671, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 3687, an 22 act to allow a filing for state aid. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 24 the last section. 25 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This

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(518) 371-8910 1 act shall take effect immediately. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 3 the roll. 4 (The Secretary called the roll.) 5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 7 bill is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 673, by Senator Morahan, Senate Print 243, an 10 act to amend the Executive Law. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 12 the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 16 the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 20 bill is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 678, by Senator Flanagan, Senate Print 1258 -- 23 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: There 24 is a local fiscal impact note at the desk. 25 Read the last section.

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR DUANE: Lay it aside, 2 please. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Lay it 4 aside. 5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 6 679, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 3614, an 7 act to amend the Correction Law. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 9 the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 13 the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 17 bill is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 680, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 3713, an 20 act to amend the Correction Law. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 24 act shall take effect on the 180th day. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call

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(518) 371-8910 1 the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 58. Nays, 4 1. Senator Montgomery recorded in the 5 negative. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 7 bill is passed. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 681, by Senator Golden, Senate Print 3718, an 10 act to amend the Executive Law. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 12 the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 16 the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 20 bill is passed. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 715, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2827, an 23 act to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 25 the last section.

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(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This 2 act shall take effect immediately. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 4 the roll. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 8 bill is passed. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 716, by Senator Young, Senate Print 3714 -- 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for 12 the day. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Lay it 14 aside for the day. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 728, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 849 -- 17 SENATOR DUANE: Lay it aside, 18 please. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Lay it 20 aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 737, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 4728 -- 23 SENATOR DUANE: Lay it aside, 24 please. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Lay it

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(518) 371-8910 1 aside. 2 That completes the noncontroversial 3 reading of the calendar, Senator Skelos. 4 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 5 if we could go to the controversial reading at 6 this time. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 8 Secretary will ring the bell and conduct the 9 controversial reading of the calendar. 10 The Secretary will read. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 571, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 1465A, an 13 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 15 LaValle. 16 SENATOR LaVALLE: Yes, on the 17 bill, Mr. President. 18 It's a rare time that I disagree 19 with my esteemed colleague Senator Saland on a 20 piece of legislation. It is a piece of 21 legislation that he has sponsored in the past 22 and I have not supported in the past. 23 But I feel today that I wanted to 24 rise to talk about this a bit, particularly at 25 a time when school districts have received

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(518) 371-8910 1 historic state aid increases and yet at the 2 same time have put in or proposed increases in 3 school real property taxes. And we have 4 talked about that, and there are many remedies 5 that have been proposed to deal with that 6 problem. 7 And speaking for myself, I have 8 felt very, very strongly that school 9 district -- we have a process under, I 10 believe, Article 41 for the presentation of a 11 budget, hearings. And the school district 12 prepares a budget and then sends it to the 13 voters for approval. 14 And that budget, they go through a 15 very arduous process. Many districts have 16 budget advisory committees, make proposals 17 over an extended period of time going back 18 into the cold winter days and months. And so 19 the voters have a good idea of what teaching 20 positions they need, what the equipment needs 21 are, what the administrative needs are and so 22 forth. 23 But one of the perplexing problems 24 within a school budget has always been the 25 issue of reserve funds and fund balances. And

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(518) 371-8910 1 school districts, it's a mentality -- because 2 I remember, just digressing, when I was both a 3 teacher and school administrator, people 4 always said, you know: Squirrel away 5 construction paper and writing paper. You 6 never know when a budget is going to fail, so 7 you've got to think ahead. 8 And so a lot of people in education 9 have a mentality that you want to be like a 10 squirrel, you want to put money away for some 11 event that no one could think of. 12 And so when you look at a budget 13 really closely and you question people about 14 how many teachers do you have in a district -- 15 and let's just pick a number, 13 -- you say, 16 Gee, I note you've budgeted here for 15 17 positions. And you can do that with each and 18 every category in a budget. 19 Now, I'm sure people do that in 20 business and elsewhere, but there's one 21 exception. The money and the trust is with 22 the taxpayer. That's the taxpayers' money. 23 And the trust should not be broken, that if 24 you need 13 positions and that's what's in 25 your budget, then you fund for 13 positions.

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(518) 371-8910 1 And of course if you are overfunding in that 2 category, then you're going to provide for 3 pension, health insurance and so forth. 4 So it's a long way of saying that 5 there is, within a budget, plenty of wiggle 6 room to take care of unexpected things that 7 will face a school district. 8 There are also legitimate reserve 9 funds -- capital reserve funds, equipment 10 reserve funds -- and all of those also have a 11 little room for the unexpected situation. 12 The fund balance, and this is one 13 of the greatest abuses, right now, under the 14 law, a school district can carry 2 percent. 15 Under Senator Saland's bill, in 2007-2008 the 16 budgets that people are voting on, they could 17 carry 3 percent, and the following year, 18 2008-2009, 4 percent. 19 That money is sitting there. And 20 it has been my contention that that money 21 should be in the pockets of the hardworking 22 taxpayers that we represent. It should not be 23 sitting in a fund doing nothing. 24 In my Senate district there have 25 been numerous school districts that have been

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(518) 371-8910 1 carrying fund balances that are incredible -- 2 20, 30 percent. Bridgehampton School 3 District, they could not even put a percent 4 because the fund balance was $4 million over 5 the floor, the 2 percent limit, $4 million 6 over. That money had to go back to the 7 taxpayer. What is the penalty when a district 8 does that? Nothing. Nothing. 9 In another piece of legislation I 10 have, the Truth in Voting Act, we talked about 11 this with the State Education Department. 12 When this is abused -- and it's abused on a 13 regular basis by school districts -- there is 14 no penalty. So what do you do? So you catch 15 a school district, you say, Okay, we're going 16 to fine you a thousand dollars. Who are you 17 penalizing? The taxpayer. 18 And so in the Truth in Voting Act 19 we said simply you have to report this 20 indiscretion, this breaking of the law to the 21 voters in your district, to say "we have 22 broken the law." 23 This legislation or similar 24 legislation has been vetoed, on numerous 25 occasions has passed here. But again, I rise

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(518) 371-8910 1 today and speak and ask, as I very 2 infrequently do, that you not support this 3 legislation because of the stresses between 4 the taxpayer and the school district. And 5 that money really belongs, as I have said, to 6 the taxpayer and should not sit in a fund 7 balance or otherwise. 8 Thank you, Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 10 Saland. 11 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, 12 Mr. President. 13 Like my friend and colleague 14 Senator LaValle, I am as loath to disagree 15 with him as he might be to disagree with me. 16 And I think in this particular case perhaps we 17 can respectfully disagree. 18 What this bill does, Mr. President, 19 as was alluded to by Senator LaValle, is to 20 over a period of time of two years, starting 21 with next year's budget, permit the fund 22 balance of independent school districts to 23 increase by 1 percent a year -- 2 to 3, 3 to 4 24 in the second year. 25 Some of us may well recall, over

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(518) 371-8910 1 the course of the past several years we saw 2 the state's credit rating increase, in large 3 part because of the improved health and 4 increased amount of our fund balances. There 5 is no entity other than school districts that 6 I'm aware that has the ability of its 7 constituents, its taxpayers, to express its 8 distaste for any district that might choose to 9 abuse its taxing authority. 10 And if in fact there was reason for 11 a group of taxpayers within a particular 12 school district to feel that this mechanism 13 was being abused, I'm sure the school board as 14 well as the school administration would feel 15 the pain or wrath of those taxpayers. 16 There are expenses that school 17 districts are forced to contend with, at times 18 very unexpectedly. As recently as the past 19 two or three years, there was an enormous 20 spike in pension costs. Certainly the costs 21 of healthcare remain unpredictable from year 22 to year, but they never go down. 23 Fuel costs. We're now witnessing 24 once again a spike in the cost of gasoline. 25 That, I'm sure, will impact budgets. But

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(518) 371-8910 1 certainly the cost of fuel, the cost of 2 energy, the cost of utilities -- these at 3 times spike with little or no notice, with 4 little or no sense of the ability to plan. 5 What a fund balance does and what 6 it's intended to do is to enable the governing 7 entity to sort of top those peaks and avoid 8 the valleys, to try and keep things at a 9 relatively level stream or playing field so as 10 not to engage in sudden spikes and having to 11 tax your constituents. 12 Are there abuses? I'm not aware 13 but certainly take at face value the 14 existence, as has been referred to by Senator 15 LaValle. And to the extent that that occurs 16 and this is not handled directly by those 17 within that particular district at the polls, 18 I think the appropriate way to deal with that 19 is by way of some legislation to deal with 20 those who would seek to have surplus funds 21 that exceed whatever the lawful cap may be. 22 This provides for prudent planning. 23 It's no different than any other level of 24 government. We just went through a budget 25 process where our planned reserves once again

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(518) 371-8910 1 were increased. People get good grades for 2 having reserves. I mean, the Comptroller, the 3 prior Comptroller, has said 2 percent is not 4 adequate for purposes of a fund balance for a 5 school district. 6 This basically enables far more 7 prudent planning, and in a fashion that most 8 government watchdogs would think would be an 9 appropriate tool and in a fashion that will 10 avoid short-term borrowing being forced upon 11 school districts in times of unexpected 12 expenditures and in a fashion that may well 13 also result in them having the benefit of 14 improved bond ratings. 15 So while I'm, as I said, loath to 16 disagree with Senator LaValle, I must in this 17 case. We've passed on two occasions during 18 this decade a similar bill, only to have it 19 vetoed by the Governor. And as far as I know, 20 there's only been, at least at the last 21 instance -- I don't recall the one several 22 before -- there's only been one negative vote 23 in both houses in opposition to this bill. 24 Thank you, Mr. President. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Is

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(518) 371-8910 1 there any other Senator wishing to be heard? 2 The debate is closed. 3 The Secretary will ring the bell. 4 Read the last section. 5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 6 act shall take effect July 1, 2008. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 8 the roll. 9 (The Secretary called the roll.) 10 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 11 Sabini. 12 SENATOR SABINI: Mr. President, 13 to explain my vote. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 15 Sabini, to explain his vote. 16 SENATOR SABINI: Even though I 17 voted for this bill in the past, Senator 18 LaValle made a very cogent argument, coupled 19 with the fact that there was a front-page 20 story in the New York Times the other day that 21 despite the efforts of both houses on both 22 sides of the aisle to increase school aid, the 23 property taxes in many localities continue to 24 rise. 25 So it looks like the flagrant

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(518) 371-8910 1 spenders in this state may not be people in 2 this building but very often people in their 3 school districts who, despite the fact that 4 they're getting more money in their budgets -- 5 thanks to increased state aid and thanks to 6 the Governor and the Legislature -- continue 7 to raise property taxes and inflate their 8 budgets. 9 So I think the timing on this bill 10 is bad. Even though I voted for it last year, 11 Senator LaValle made some good points, and 12 I'll be voting in the negative. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 14 Sabini will be recorded in the negative. 15 Senator Marcellino, to explain his 16 vote. 17 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yeah, 18 Mr. President, I'm going to be voting aye on 19 this bill, to support it. Not that I disagree 20 totally with my colleague Senator LaValle, 21 because I think he made some very good points. 22 We should have seen, I think, even more 23 decreases in school budgets this year as a 24 result of the aid that we gave. 25 However, the points that Senator

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(518) 371-8910 1 Saland make are cogent and on target. The 2 costs have risen for every area of a school 3 and school budget. If there are 4 misappropriations, if there are overinflating 5 of budgets, that is the function of the 6 Comptroller's office of this state. 7 That is why we passed a bill that I 8 sponsored to require the Comptroller of the 9 State of New York to audit every school 10 district in this state. We gave him 11 $3 million to do that, to hire staff to do 12 that, to point out and find just the kind of 13 egregious -- I won't call them errors, but 14 misbudgeting that Senator LaValle pointed out 15 that occurred in a district in his area. 16 The present legislation should 17 eliminate this problem. If there are weak 18 penalties, put up legislation to increase the 19 penalties on the administrators who are 20 misappropriating the funds so we don't punish 21 the taxpayers. I agree with that. 22 However, this bill goes to a point 23 that most school districts are suffering from, 24 and that is the cost of repair, the cost of 25 fuel, the cost of everything, and the

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(518) 371-8910 1 unnecessary and unplanned-for spikes that may 2 occur. 3 So I vote aye on this legislation. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 5 Marcellino recorded in the affirmative. 6 Senator Volker. 7 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, I 8 feel a little awkward on this bill because I 9 understand Senator LaValle's problem. 10 But the problem is that it appears, 11 very honestly, that on Long Island they're 12 paying no attention to the law. And in 13 upstate New York, in my district -- by the 14 way, it's interesting, I always love it when 15 the New York Times tells us upstaters about 16 taxes. 17 But I have to admit that most of my 18 districts try to follow the law. And the 19 problem is that by following the law, 20 sometimes they get themselves in trouble. 21 Because of the fact that by pouring all the 22 money -- and sometimes I admit they spend too 23 much money. But the good districts that 24 follow the law sometimes are penalized. 25 And so the interesting problem is

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(518) 371-8910 1 that they are all, those districts that I call 2 the good districts -- and I would point out to 3 you that last year's school vote, not one 4 budget was rejected in my district, first time 5 I could ever remember, and it's because of the 6 additional funding, the tax rates were down 7 somewhat, and because of rebates, because 8 people knew rebates were coming. There's no 9 question that that was a factor. 10 And it's going to be a factor this 11 year. It will be interesting to see -- and I 12 have four counties, by the way, four counties 13 in upstate New York. 14 But I do have to say as much as I 15 agree -- and I think if I lived on Long 16 Island, I'd certainly agree with Senator 17 LaValle. But I live in an area that, frankly, 18 really believes in the law. And therefore 19 many of those districts are saying to me, We 20 want to have the flexibility to make sure that 21 we don't get caught up short with fuel costs 22 and all the rest of the stuff. 23 In a way, I think that's fiscally 24 responsible. So that's why I'm going to vote 25 for this. But I certainly understand Senator

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(518) 371-8910 1 LaValle's problem. 2 And my colleagues from downstate -- 3 whose taxes, by the way, are four to five 4 times the taxes of my constituents in upstate 5 New York -- and of course our people all think 6 that their taxes are completely out of 7 control. And the problem is they're high, but 8 nowhere near as high as some of my colleagues 9 in downstate New York. And we realize that. 10 I vote aye. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 12 Volker to be recorded in the affirmative. 13 Announce the results. 14 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 15 the negative on Calendar Number 571 are 16 Senators Bonacic, Connor, Diaz, Fuschillo, 17 Gonzalez, Hassell-Thompson, Huntley, Klein, 18 L. Krueger, LaValle, Parker, Perkins, Rath, 19 Sabini, Savino, Serrano, Stavisky and 20 Stewart-Cousins. Also Senator Schneiderman. 21 Absent from voting: Senators Adams 22 and Sampson. 23 Ayes, 39. Nays, 19. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 25 bill is passed.

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(518) 371-8910 1 The Secretary will read. 2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 3 678, by Senator Flanagan, Senate Print 1258, 4 an act to amend the Executive Law and the 5 Criminal Procedure Law. 6 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Explanation. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 8 Flanagan, an explanation, please. 9 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Thank you, 10 Mr. President. 11 Briefly, this bill allows counties 12 to impose fees for administration, for drug 13 testing fees and for electronic monitoring 14 fees. 15 It is an outgrowth of opinion by 16 the Attorney General back in 2003, 17 then-Attorney General Eliot Spitzer. And he 18 found this practice, that had been started and 19 imposed by counties throughout the state of 20 New York, to be illegal. And actually, I'll 21 read a quote, because I think it is quite 22 helpful. 23 Back in 2003, Attorney General 24 Spitzer requested that the State Legislature 25 change the law, saying that "This is sound

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(518) 371-8910 1 public policy and the State Legislature should 2 take steps to explicitly grant local 3 governments the authority to adopt such 4 measures." 5 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Thank 6 you, Senator Flanagan. 7 Senator Montgomery. 8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, 9 Mr. President. I would respectfully disagree 10 with Attorney General Spitzer, who was 11 Attorney General, I believe, when that quote 12 was made. 13 And the reason that I do is the 14 reason that I've offered in the prior debates 15 on this. I continue to oppose it because, 16 one, I think that when we are talking about 17 probation, we're often talking about young 18 people, because they tend to receive 19 probation, often, hopefully as an alternative 20 to incarceration. And, two, because it is 21 very onerous, because we're now up to almost 22 $5,000, and this is -- these fees are being 23 imposed on a population that is the least able 24 to afford these fees. 25 So, Mr. President, I will continue,

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(518) 371-8910 1 along with a number of my colleagues who have 2 in the past opposed this, including Senators 3 Connor, Diaz, Dilan, Duane, Krueger, Parker, 4 Sabini, Sampson, Schneiderman, Serrano, 5 Minority Leader Smith, Stavisky, 6 Hassell-Thompson, and Gonzalez. And Krueger. 7 Thank you, Mr. President. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Thank 9 you. 10 Senator Diaz. 11 SENATOR DIAZ: Thank you, 12 Mr. President. Mr. President, through you, 13 would the sponsor yield for one question or 14 two? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Will 16 the sponsor yield to a question? 17 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Yes. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 19 Diaz. 20 SENATOR DIAZ: Thank you. 21 Senator Flanagan, this piece of 22 legislation calls for someone that is in jail 23 and is supposed to come out on probation to 24 pay a fee? 25 SENATOR FLANAGAN: There's a

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(518) 371-8910 1 possibility of three different fees. One is 2 for an administration fee, up to $30; one is 3 for a drug testing fee of up to $8 per day; 4 and the other is for an electronic monitoring 5 fee, which could be up to $8 a day as well. 6 It doesn't have to be all three, it could be 7 any one. 8 SENATOR DIAZ: Would Senator 9 Flanagan still yield for another question. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 11 Flanagan, are you willing to yield to another 12 question? 13 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Yes. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 15 Diaz. 16 SENATOR DIAZ: What would happen 17 to someone that cannot pay those fees? 18 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Senator Diaz, 19 I'm going to the glasses now. 20 Page 2 of the bill, line 40: "The 21 probation department shall waive all or part 22 of such administrative, drug testing and 23 electronic monitoring fees where, because of 24 the financial circumstances of the probationer 25 or releasee, the payment of said fee would

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(518) 371-8910 1 work an unreasonable hardship on the 2 probationer or releasee, his or her immediate 3 family, or any other person who depends on 4 such person for financial support." 5 The fee can be waived. 6 SENATOR DIAZ: Thank you, 7 Mr. President. On the bill. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 9 Diaz, on the bill. 10 SENATOR DIAZ: Again, I think 11 that every day I say this, I try to remind you 12 of the same thing here, that I represent the 13 32nd Senatorial District. I don't represent a 14 district where people make a lot of money. I 15 represent a poor district. 16 And for one of those members of my 17 district or in any area of New York, a poor 18 area, to come out of jail, poor people that 19 have to pay $8 a day -- $8 a day, you know how 20 many containers of milk could a family buy 21 with $8 a day? And now you're imposing -- you 22 know, sometime I'm with you guys. But this 23 time, you know, this is something very -- 24 very -- very hard for me to understand that to 25 impose a person that already paid their dues

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(518) 371-8910 1 to society, is coming out, now they have to be 2 charged $8 a day? For how long? For how 3 long? Even for one or two days, this is 4 something that is not -- it's not feasible. 5 I think that, Senator Flanagan, 6 with all due respect, this is an ill-advised 7 bill which I ask my fellow Senators not to 8 support. There are people out there that 9 cannot afford this kind of pressure. And this 10 is another way of telling people in my 11 community -- 12 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 13 Flanagan, for what reason do you rise? 14 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Would Senator 15 Diaz yield to a question. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 17 Diaz, will you yield to a question from 18 Senator Flanagan? 19 SENATOR DIAZ: Should I? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Yes. 21 Senator Flanagan. 22 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Senator Diaz, 23 perhaps I'm -- 24 SENATOR DIAZ: Do I have to? 25 Wait, wait, wait. Let me -- let me -- I'm

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(518) 371-8910 1 sorry, I wasn't paying attention. 2 SENATOR FLANAGAN: In response to 3 your original question, I read you express 4 language in the bill that allowed for a 5 hardship waiver if someone does not have the 6 financial means or support to pay these fees. 7 There is clear authority for someone who is 8 financially incapable of paying to have the 9 fees waived. You do understand that? 10 SENATOR DIAZ: Mr. President, 11 through you. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: You 13 have the floor, Senator Diaz. 14 SENATOR DIAZ: Who determines who 15 is incapable of paying? Because in my 16 community -- you don't understand my 17 community, Senator. Who will determine a 18 person that cannot afford $8 a day? This is 19 not that easy. It's not that easy. 20 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Are you asking 21 me a question? 22 SENATOR DIAZ: I'm asking you a 23 question. Who will determine that? 24 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Okay. The 25 probation department will determine that.

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR DIAZ: Oh. Oh, oh 2 (laughing). I used to go to Lehman College in 3 the Bronx, and in my philosophy class there 4 was a teacher from Spain that used to say 5 "Children of my heart" -- let me say it in 6 Spanish. [in Spanish] In English it says: 7 "Children of my heart, that blue sky, that 8 ain't blue and it ain't the sky." 9 So, you know, a lot of people are 10 telling us who -- who could pay and who could 11 not pay. You go to my community, we got poor 12 people there. Even in the Medicaid, one cents 13 or two cents -- there are people dying that 14 cannot even buy food. There are people that 15 have to decide to buy food or to buy medicine, 16 whatever. And you're trying to impose another 17 burden on them? 18 Come on, Senator, you know you 19 could do better than this. 20 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Mr. President, 21 if Senator Diaz would continue to yield. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 23 Diaz, will you continue to yield to a question 24 from Senator Flanagan? 25 SENATOR DIAZ: I might be getting

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(518) 371-8910 1 myself into trouble, but I have to say yes. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Yes, 3 Senator Flanagan. 4 SENATOR FLANAGAN: A comment and 5 a question. While my Spanish is certainly not 6 as proficient as yours, I understood it in 7 both Spanish and English in terms of what you 8 were saying. 9 But I would offer to you that there 10 is also a cap of $600 on the drug testing and 11 $900 on the electronic monitoring, so there's 12 an additional cap. 13 But my question to you is, do you 14 believe that anybody should have to pay any 15 fees for probation? 16 SENATOR DIAZ: No, no, I don't 17 believe that, because people already pay their 18 dues. I mean, they committed a crime, they 19 committed an action, they went in front of a 20 judge, they were found guilty, they were 21 sentenced by the society to pay for their 22 crimes. That's it. 23 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Senator Diaz, 24 do you agree with our present law that allows 25 for the imposition of probation fees for

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(518) 371-8910 1 DWI-related offenses? Because that's present 2 law. So do you disagree with that law? Do 3 you believe that those people should not have 4 to pay any fees? 5 SENATOR DIAZ: We're talking 6 about -- 7 SENATOR FLANAGAN: I'm talking 8 about present law. If I take your argument to 9 its next step, you would then also say that 10 DWI fees should not be imposed on anybody. 11 SENATOR DIAZ: I'm talking about 12 Bill Number 678. That's what we're referring 13 to now, Bill 678 that we're about to vote yes 14 or no. So I would concentrate on this bill 15 and talk about this bill. And I'm saying this 16 bill is wrong for my community. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: May I 18 ask my fellow Senators to please address their 19 questions to the chair. 20 SENATOR DIAZ: Mr. President, I 21 asked my question and I'm going to take my 22 seat now. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 24 Flanagan, is that okay? Very good. 25 Senator Schneiderman.

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you, 2 Mr. President. Would the sponsor yield for a 3 brief question. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 5 Flanagan, will you yield for a question? 6 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Yes. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 8 Schneiderman. 9 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Senator 10 Flanagan, there was a question and Senator 11 Montgomery raised an issue, the suggestion 12 that this bill was in fact supported by the 13 Governor. 14 This is not in fact a Governor's 15 program bill, is it, Senator Flanagan? 16 SENATOR FLANAGAN: No. 17 And through you, Mr. President, in 18 case it was not clear, I made a reference to 19 2003, by then-Attorney General Eliot Spitzer. 20 I never suggested for a second that this was a 21 Governor's program bill in any way, shape or 22 form. I spoke to his comments as the Attorney 23 General. 24 Maybe I'll go out on a limb and 25 suggest that if he supported it as Attorney

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(518) 371-8910 1 General, he would probably do the same thing 2 as Governor. But I don't want to pretend to 3 speak for the Governor. 4 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank the 5 sponsor for his answer. On the bill. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 7 Schneiderman, on the bill. 8 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: I think 9 that we're dealing with an area in which 10 people are evolving and consciousness is 11 evolving on this issue. It is clear now that 12 even the conservative Republican president, 13 George Bush, has begun to speak about reentry 14 as a priority, developing programs so people 15 who get out of prison can reenter society, 16 become productive members of society. Again, 17 this is a theme that is coming up over and 18 over again. 19 And I believe that our conference, 20 many of us believe that New York State is 21 behind the curve on the issue of reentry. We 22 have to get the barriers out of the way to let 23 people who have served their debt to society 24 under some of the stiffest sentences in the 25 country reenter. What works for everyone is

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(518) 371-8910 1 to make sure that people do not commit further 2 crimes -- that's a crime-reduction strategy; 3 that they can get back together with their 4 families, get jobs -- that's an economic 5 development strategy; that they can educate 6 themselves and that they can become helpful 7 members of their community -- that's a 8 community empowerment strategy, and that's a 9 strategy that helps poor communities of color 10 such as those represented by Senator Diaz, 11 Senator Montgomery, and myself. 12 I think that this bill is a 13 throwback to a time when thinking was very 14 different and people thought it's all about 15 punishment, let's punish them as much as we 16 can and, when they get out of prison, let's 17 punish them some more. 18 It seems like a small amount of 19 money, but it is hard enough -- you know, 20 think about the unemployment rates for young 21 men of color in our society. Three, four 22 times that of young white men in our society. 23 And then add to that what about the young men 24 of color who have a criminal record. Boy, 25 it's hard to get a job, it's hard to support

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(518) 371-8910 1 your family. 2 And yet we, through this bill, 3 would impose an additional burden that would 4 make it harder for those courageous souls who 5 do want to straighten up their life and 6 reenter. 7 This is an outdated bill, ladies 8 and gentlemen. I respect Senator Flanagan's 9 sincerity on the issue, and I think the 10 concern for local governments should be dealt 11 with by ensuring that the state fund the 12 underfunded probation departments and provide 13 additional resources, provide educational and 14 counseling resources to prisoners. But 15 punishing the prisoners further has not 16 worked, will not work. 17 Let's give everyone a fair shot at 18 reentry into society. It's the right way to 19 go. It's better from a criminal justice point 20 of view, it's better from a social point of 21 view, and it is better to try and reflect the 22 fact that sometimes the blue sky is not the 23 blue sky, but there are always a few people 24 who are willing to reach out and do better no 25 matter what the obstacles.

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(518) 371-8910 1 And I think that until we're able 2 to address all these other issues, it would be 3 prudent for us to vote no against this bill 4 and against imposing additional burdens on 5 people getting out of prison in New York 6 State. Let's give everyone a chance to 7 succeed. 8 Thank you, Mr. President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 10 Hassell-Thompson, on the bill. 11 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: Thank 12 you, Mr. President. 13 Part of what I wanted to present 14 was presented by Senator Schneiderman. But 15 another aspect of concern that I have is that 16 yes, the bill speaks to the fact that if 17 people cannot afford that it would be -- 18 consideration would be given or it would be 19 waived. 20 However, in the real world, Senator 21 Flanagan, I have worked with some young men 22 who are on probation and on parole. And in 23 order to -- in your probation, you have to pay 24 $30 a month. And the law says if you can't 25 afford to pay, that should be waived or

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(518) 371-8910 1 adjusted. However, his parole officer, his 2 probation officer has made that a condition of 3 his probation and has said if he fails to pay 4 it, he will violate him. 5 And so in the real world it doesn't 6 matter what this law says. You're not in that 7 office telling that probation and that parole 8 officer what the law says. They have 9 discretion, and they use that discretion in 10 any way that they choose. And many of these 11 young men continue to be violated because they 12 cannot pay these fees. 13 I do not believe that the State of 14 New York should bear all costs, no. So don't 15 ask me that question, because I will answer it 16 for you. But what I will tell you is that we 17 sit here and we talk about the numbers of 18 positions and jobs and employment 19 opportunities that young men returning to our 20 communities cannot have. They cannot be 21 barbers, they cannot be beauticians. 22 Every day, practically, we commit 23 them to going back to prison because the 24 employment opportunities are minimal. And the 25 more minimal the opportunities, the more

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(518) 371-8910 1 minimal the salaries. 2 So in the process of those 3 salaries, when they pay their parole and 4 probation costs, and then you want them now to 5 pay for drug testing -- what else is it that 6 you want them to pay? 7 And so my concern to you and to all 8 of us is that somehow we need to look at the 9 real world when we sit here in these very 10 comfortable seats and talk about how we're 11 going to affect the lives of people that we 12 will never meet, that we will never see, and 13 who will never impact our lives directly. 14 Thank you, Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 16 Robach. 17 SENATOR ROBACH: Yes, 18 Mr. President. I rise to support this bill. 19 This is interesting to me. But I 20 think we have to clarify some points here, 21 first and foremost. This is for probation, 22 not for parole. This is not about reentry, 23 this is about people that don't go to jail in 24 lieu of that. So oftentimes -- the DWI 25 analogy that was given was very good.

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(518) 371-8910 1 I think this is, I guess, what you 2 want to focus on. I would think that this 3 would be something that would actually be more 4 onerous on those people who violate the law 5 that have the ability to pay that perhaps 6 would be more likely -- maybe, perhaps -- to 7 be suburban rather than urban, to say to them 8 as a relief to the taxpayer and the 9 overburdened system, This is a mechanism to 10 let you pay and take a little bit more 11 responsibility for the crime that you have 12 perpetrated. 13 I think this makes all the sense in 14 the world. I would love to have a bill that 15 says everyone that chooses to drink and drive, 16 even though they don't hurt somebody -- 17 because it will be a different charge -- we're 18 going to make you not only take that 19 punishment in the fine you're going to have to 20 pay, but pay for the attached cost. 21 I think when the Attorney General 22 at the time said that statement, that's 23 exactly what he was trying to address. When 24 people have the ability to pay, to take that 25 burden off the system that's paying for it

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(518) 371-8910 1 now, you would do that. I think that one 2 could even make the argument it would give 3 government more money to spend on preventive 4 side things rather than other things to go 5 right after the affected communities that are 6 in there. 7 So I'm really not disagreeing. I 8 guess that when I look at what this focuses 9 on, what it does is -- I don't think we're 10 trying to already -- the purpose of this isn't 11 to more aggressively go after the downtrodden 12 or those that don't have the ability to pay, I 13 think it's to free up more money and put more 14 money back in the system from those offenders 15 that do have the ability to pay. And that's 16 why I'm going to support the bill. 17 I applaud Senator Flanagan. I 18 think in other areas where we've done that, 19 it's helped accomplish the goal and put more 20 personal responsibility on people that have 21 the ability to pay. And for those reasons, I 22 will support the bill. 23 Thank you, Mr. President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: 25 Senator Adams, on the bill.

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR ADAMS: Would the sponsor 2 yield for a question. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 4 Flanagan, would you yield for a question from 5 Senator Adams? 6 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Yes. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 8 Adams. 9 SENATOR ADAMS: First, probably 10 unlike my colleagues, I find the bill to have 11 some attractive points. I just need some 12 clarity on some aspects of the bill. 13 Those who cannot pay, is there a 14 mechanism to ensure that there's a standard? 15 Or is it discretion for probation to decide if 16 they're going to pay or not? 17 SENATOR FLANAGAN: The rules and 18 regulations regarding that conduct have to be 19 promulgated. Is it set out, is there a 20 standard in the bill specifically? No. 21 SENATOR ADAMS: The fees, would 22 the fees -- 23 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 24 Adams, please address the chair. 25 SENATOR ADAMS: I'm sorry. Would

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(518) 371-8910 1 the sponsor please yield for another question. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 3 Flanagan, do you yield for an additional 4 question? 5 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Yes. 6 SENATOR ADAMS: The fees that are 7 paid, would that go into a fund for victims, 8 or would it just go into a fund for probation, 9 a general fund for probation? 10 SENATOR FLANAGAN: It is to go 11 directly into county for local probation 12 services. It can't be used by the State of 13 New York to offset any other money that 14 otherwise would go to that county. So it's 15 directly into local probation services. 16 SENATOR ADAMS: On the bill. 17 SENATOR FLANAGAN: It is 18 supported by NYSAC. I have a specific memo, 19 not an updated one. This was supported by 20 Westchester County in a very extensive memo, 21 again by CSEA, by NYSAC as well. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Thank 23 you, Senator Flanagan. 24 Senator Adams, on the bill. 25 SENATOR ADAMS: On the bill.

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(518) 371-8910 1 You know, there is a real concern 2 about those who are on probation and can't 3 afford to pay any additional fees. And we 4 don't want to put people in a state to 5 continue crimes. 6 But there is a concern that I 7 believe in. And we have a tendency sometimes 8 to forget the guys that play by the rules. 9 And it is always my belief that we almost have 10 abandoned the nine-to-five guy, the guy who 11 plays by the rules. He may not have enough to 12 buy a loaf of bread, but you know what, he'll 13 put another hour in so he can. He's not doing 14 a stickup, he's not doing a robbery. And I 15 think we're moving away from just dealing with 16 that everyday nine-to-five guy. 17 And when someone decides not to 18 play by the rules, life is supposed to be 19 challenging, and he must understand there's a 20 responsibility for his crime. And I don't 21 think merely, unlike what my counterparts 22 stated, that after someone serves time in a 23 correctional facility that he has paid his 24 dues. No, he hasn't. I think there's more 25 you have to do. There needs to be some

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(518) 371-8910 1 consolation to the victim. 2 I would like to see something like 3 this go into a fund to go to those victims of 4 crimes -- rape, robbery and burglary -- and 5 how they are impacted, not just to go into a 6 general fund. I would be more enthused to 7 support a bill like this if we do more for the 8 victim. And those who commit crime, 9 particularly victim crimes, predatory crimes 10 that scar the life of people long before the 11 physical wounds heal -- the emotional and 12 psychological wounds last a lifetime. 13 And so a bill like this I would be 14 more inclined to support if we do more for the 15 victim and send the statement that those men 16 and women all over the state that play by the 17 rules should not have to compensate the 18 requirements that others may do to fulfill 19 their obligation of probation. 20 Not going to jail for committing a 21 crime and having to pay to take a urine test, 22 to pay to take a drug test or to offset the 23 cost to the public, those funds that can go 24 into some real programs in my own community 25 I'm in support of. I would rather we have

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(518) 371-8910 1 more to deal with victim services, to ensure 2 that victims that are victims of crime are 3 compensated in some way. 4 That is not lined out, as I just 5 learned today, so that is the reason I will 6 not support the bill at this time. But if a 7 bill is ever introduced that would include 8 funds that are taken from persons who commit 9 crimes that go into a fund for victims and 10 victim services, I would be more than happy to 11 support a bill of that nature. But at this 12 time I will not support it. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 14 Krueger. 15 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you, 16 Mr. President. On the bill. 17 So my colleagues have made many 18 points today, back and forth. I do want to 19 just correct one thing. The bill is both for 20 people on probation and conditional release. 21 So in fact it is people -- as Senator 22 Schneiderman pointed out earlier and Senator 23 Hassell-Thompson pointed out, it would both be 24 probation people and people who are being 25 released from prison under the conditional

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(518) 371-8910 1 release category. 2 But I guess I want to raise an 3 additional point here, as someone who spent 4 many years of her life working with government 5 benefits programs for low-income people and 6 working in low-income communities. One, to 7 highlight several things that were said today. 8 When someone, whether they are on 9 probation or they are coming out of prison and 10 they are poor, what the research shows is the 11 most effective model for making sure they 12 don't go back to a life of crime, they don't 13 go back into the system, is to ensure that 14 they have the opportunities to get good jobs 15 and meet their economic obligations to 16 themselves and their families and their 17 community. 18 So I worry that from an operational 19 perspective what we will be doing with this 20 kind of legislation is actually putting a 21 fairly high tax on the lowest-income people, 22 who are the in fact parolees and people coming 23 out of prison, and that the win would not 24 actually be ours. 25 I respect Senator Adams' point

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(518) 371-8910 1 about where the money would go. I would be 2 hesitant to do a math equation right now, but 3 I suspect if you actually did the analysis of 4 the cost to the local probation organizations 5 in each county, and they had to do the math on 6 what it would mean to set up a system to do an 7 evaluation of each possible candidate who 8 might have to pay or might be asking for an 9 exemption, there would be a significant 10 administrative cost for operating that 11 approval or rejection process. 12 There would be a significant cost 13 in trying to collect the money and making the 14 decisions about how you would go about 15 collecting money. Certainly in social service 16 agencies and in government we have learned 17 that when you take an emergency grant and you 18 turn it into a loan that must be repaid, the 19 costs of collecting that money back often 20 exceed the cost if you had just exempted it in 21 the first place. 22 Ironically, we've even discovered 23 that with the school meals program, where, 24 rather than collect a cost per day for a meal, 25 the school systems can actually save money by

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(518) 371-8910 1 not collecting any cost for the meals because 2 it's more expensive to administer the program 3 than to collect the quarters and the dollars 4 from the children. 5 So I would also wonder whether we 6 would really actually see any significant 7 savings or revenue to the localities, while I 8 know we'd be setting up an administratively 9 complex system that would cost us money to set 10 up. And I particularly worry that we would be 11 ending up then either putting people back into 12 prison because they failed their conditional 13 release when they couldn't pay their money, or 14 we ended up increasing the number of people 15 who -- 16 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 17 Flanagan, why do you rise? 18 SENATOR FLANAGAN: If Senator 19 Krueger would yield for a question. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 21 Krueger, would you yield to Senator Flanagan? 22 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: If I could 23 just finish my sentence, I'd be happy to 24 answer the Senator's question in a moment. 25 Thank you. I would also be

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(518) 371-8910 1 concerned -- thank you -- that we'd end up 2 actually having people put into institutional 3 settings because of their inability to pay or 4 to meet the obligations of this new 5 administrative setup. 6 So I think that Senator Flanagan's 7 intention with this bill is to say if you were 8 guilty of something, you should pay some of 9 the cost. And I fear the way this is set up, 10 that wouldn't be the outcome, and we would be 11 creating an additional penalty for exactly the 12 type of people who the win for us is if they 13 go into their communities, they get 14 good-paying jobs, they become taxpayers, and 15 the win back into the coffers of government is 16 the tax revenue they can pay us when they 17 accomplish their goals of becoming the wage 18 earners I know that Senator Flanagan and I 19 both want them to be. 20 And now I'd happy to answer any 21 questions, Senator. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 23 Flanagan. 24 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Thank you, 25 Mr. President.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Krueger, following up on 2 something that Senator Hassell-Thompson said 3 as well, you are aware that there are 4 provisions in this bill that these fees cannot 5 be imposed as a condition of probation? So 6 the scenario you described about somebody 7 being returned and institutionalized based on 8 the fact that they haven't paid is 9 inapplicable. There's specific language in 10 the bill against that. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 12 Krueger. 13 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 14 Thank you, Senator Flanagan. 15 I think my concern -- and I don't 16 want to speak for Senator Hassell-Thompson. 17 Obviously she can herself -- is the point 18 about in real life how are decisions made by a 19 system as to whether somebody is released, is 20 not released, has been concluded to fail the 21 tests of the program or not. 22 So yes, I see the language that 23 says that there's supposed to be an undue 24 hardship category and a process for, I guess, 25 almost the equivalent of a fair hearing

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(518) 371-8910 1 process or an administrative judicial 2 proceeding to make your argument for hardship. 3 But I think my concern is, and I 4 think my colleagues' -- not to speak for 5 them -- concern is that in real life it's much 6 more likely that somebody would just have the 7 box checked off that they failed to meet the 8 proof for themselves that they couldn't pay. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 10 Krueger, will you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Of course, 12 Mr. President. 13 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Thank you, 14 Mr. President. 15 I would respectfully offer that, in 16 this context of the real world that everyone 17 seems to be bringing up, are you aware that 18 counties were running programs like this for a 19 number of years and then the Attorney General 20 said, You can't do this anymore, so you need 21 to get state legislation? Are you aware of 22 the fact that there were counties all across 23 the state running these programs? 24 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 25 Krueger.

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: No, 2 Mr. President, I'm not aware of that. 3 May I ask the sponsor why the 4 Attorney General ended that program. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Will 6 the sponsor yield for that question? 7 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Because that's 8 the reason we have the bill. He said they 9 didn't have explicit state authorization to do 10 so. 11 And there were two primary 12 objectives here: To make the counties whole 13 so they wouldn't have budget deficits created 14 as a result of losing money. But the other 15 point is that this allows them to continue a 16 program that many of them started in good 17 faith. 18 So I would ask you another 19 question. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 21 Krueger, will you yield to Senator Flanagan? 22 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Certainly I 23 will, Mr. President. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 25 Flanagan.

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR FLANAGAN: You talked 2 about some different programs separate from 3 probation. And I look and think, okay, this 4 is not some brain trust idea that emanated 5 from office of Senator Flanagan, this is the 6 New York State Association of Counties who had 7 come to us with an idea on programs they were 8 actually running, that they were working on 9 where they had an administrative setup where 10 they were collecting fees and they were 11 actually implementing programs about which you 12 have raised some fears and concerns. 13 I listen to the people and my 14 colleagues listen to the people who are 15 actually running the programs. So there's 16 quantifiable evidence, there's an experience 17 that demonstrates how it works. 18 And I can also tell you that in a 19 memorandum -- it is not updated, I will be 20 very clear -- but from Westchester County, 21 from Andrew Spano, talking about the hardship 22 provisions in particular, that the 23 administrative fee that they had been allowed 24 to impose since 1993, the county had never 25 gone after anybody for failure to pay that

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(518) 371-8910 1 fee, that the hardship provisions work. 2 So I'm taking this from the 3 standpoint that we have people in the field in 4 the real world, like Senator Hassell-Thompson 5 referenced, who are running these programs or 6 were running these programs and knew how to do 7 it every day. I'm going to rely on the 8 expertise of the people in the field who knew 9 how to do it and were actually doing it and 10 they're now actually coming and asking for 11 state authorization to, frankly, do it the 12 right way. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 14 Krueger. 15 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you, 16 Mr. President. Thank you, Senator Flanagan. 17 On the bill. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: On the 19 bill. 20 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 21 I would be very interested in 22 seeing the reports that you have referenced. 23 I have not seen them. And interested in, I 24 suppose, the economic analysis of what 25 happened in the counties that were running

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(518) 371-8910 1 these programs, what the size of the counties 2 were, what people they were applying them to. 3 As you point out, it was pre-your proposed 4 legislation, so I suspect it was different 5 models in different counties. 6 So I will remain as a no vote on 7 your bill today. But I would be very 8 interested in seeing the materials, the 9 findings from the different counties of the 10 economics of it for them, what rules they 11 followed, in order to evaluate whether in 12 fact, in fairness, your arguments have been 13 proven by the trials of different counties. 14 But for now I'll stand with the 15 argument that I think that really the goal of 16 both when we make a decision to put someone on 17 probation rather than put them into jail, when 18 we make the decision to have a conditional 19 release, in recognition of the fact that 20 statistically the vast majority of people who 21 are both in our prisons and are on probation 22 are exceptionally poor, that it does not -- 23 the research that I am familiar with does not 24 lead me to conclude that quote, unquote, a 25 high tax on the poorest people who have gotten

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(518) 371-8910 1 themselves into trouble with our criminal 2 justice system is ultimately in the best 3 interests of trying to make sure that we not 4 only keep people following our laws and out of 5 our very expensive institutional settings but 6 that we support them to become the hardworking 7 nine-to-five, to use Senator Adams' reference, 8 participants in our communities that we hope 9 they can be, that we want them to be. 10 But I would look forward to seeing 11 the materials from you, Senator. 12 Thank you, Mr. President. I'll 13 vote no. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 15 Volker, to close. 16 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, I 17 just want to say, you know, Senator Krueger, 18 you should vote no on this. And there's a 19 reason. Because your district is one of the 20 only districts in the entirety of New York 21 City where anybody ever collects any fines. 22 The truth is that New York City is 23 virtually totally exempt from fines and fees. 24 And I have never heard -- Senator 25 Hassell-Thompson, it was interesting to listen

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(518) 371-8910 1 to you talk about probation officers. It's an 2 automatic waiver in New York City. We pass 3 these rules and regs and all this stuff saying 4 that you can charge somebody who can afford it 5 extra fines and fees. The one place that this 6 is never collected is New York City. It's no 7 secret. 8 The truth is, it's collected from 9 Senator Flanagan's district and mine and 10 places where people that can afford it -- most 11 of whom never went to jail, by the way, 12 because most of these people are probation 13 people. They go in for a hearing, whatever. 14 And instead of sending them to jail, they get 15 put on probation. Not parole, probation. 16 Now, I want to thank Senator Diaz 17 for defending Paris Hilton. Because this is 18 the classic bill that would be used against 19 someone like Paris Hilton. And I mean that. 20 And what the judge did in the 21 situation with Paris Hilton was get tired of 22 just letting her walk in, pay a fine or 23 whatever, and said: Wait a minute, you're 24 going to do more than just do the kind of 25 things you've been doing. You're going to go

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(518) 371-8910 1 to jail. 2 Now, this bill, by the way, if she 3 was going to get on probation, she'd still 4 have to pay all kinds of other things, because 5 of course she'd have to be drug tested and all 6 sorts of -- I mean, I would think. 7 At any rate, what I'm trying to 8 point out is, this is not for poor people. 9 This is for drug people and people who can 10 afford to pay the fees. These are people all 11 over the place. 12 You asked the process. The process 13 is you go before the judge and he says "Okay, 14 forget it," in the city. That's what happens. 15 I have the numbers. We've had them for years. 16 People don't pay assessments and fines 17 downstate, because most of the judges pay no 18 attention. 19 Virtually throughout New York City, 20 except occasionally in Manhattan -- and that's 21 true because they get some really wealthy 22 people occasionally there, just as 23 occasionally we do in Buffalo and places like 24 that. 25 I think there's a rule down here, I

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(518) 371-8910 1 think for some time, to pay fees and so forth, 2 but they just ignored it. 3 My point is that what someone 4 says -- and I believe in reentry and all that 5 sort of stuff. In fact, I'm doing legislation 6 on that. This has nothing to do with reentry. 7 This has to do with some people that keep 8 violating the law and getting breaks who don't 9 have to pay for a lot of the things that my 10 constituents, my county, my city and your 11 city, are paying, because they don't want to 12 pay them. 13 It isn't poor people. It's 14 wealthier people, middle-income people that 15 have the money. In some cases, wealthy 16 people. 17 The problem is we feel so badly for 18 poor people, who it really doesn't apply to, 19 that we forget that in many cases the drug 20 people are not poor people. Especially 21 sellers. Who, by the way, in this state, in 22 New York City, probably get more breaks than 23 any sellers of drugs in the nation. In the 24 city. 25 It's been no secret for a long

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(518) 371-8910 1 time, you got to get arrested dozens of time 2 before you ever go to jail. You go on 3 probation or eventually you go on parole. And 4 then you get in trouble, and if you don't have 5 to pay for all the stuff that happens after 6 that, why, you're fine. 7 You think that it has poor people 8 involved. Not true. Just not true. We have 9 the numbers in from the city, and they're 10 staggering about the amount of assessments and 11 penalties that are never collected. Now, 12 we're not saying that they should collect all 13 of them. But there is a culture that's 14 developed that says we're just not going to do 15 it because it's not worth it. And that costs 16 probation millions and millions and millions 17 of dollars -- 18 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 19 Diaz, why do you rise? 20 SENATOR DIAZ: Would Senator 21 Volker yield to a question, please. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 23 Volker, will you yield to a question from 24 Senator Diaz? 25 SENATOR VOLKER: Yeah, I guess

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(518) 371-8910 1 so. I'm supposed to be summing up, but yeah. 2 SENATOR DIAZ: Senator, I need 3 for you to explain to me again when you say 4 "drug people" in this bill, what do you mean 5 exactly. 6 SENATOR VOLKER: What I mean is 7 especially sellers, people that sell drugs 8 that have money and go on probation in 9 New York City rather than go to jail. Because 10 that's what happens to a lot of people in the 11 city. 12 Now, Senator, let me finish by 13 saying there's a provision in this bill that 14 you didn't see. It says Senator Diaz's 15 district is not included in this bill. And 16 the reason I say that is because the poor 17 people in your district will never have to pay 18 it. 19 SENATOR DIAZ: Do not get angry 20 at me. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 22 Diaz. 23 SENATOR DIAZ: Can the Senator 24 yield for another question. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator

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(518) 371-8910 1 Volker, will you yield for another question? 2 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes, I yield. 3 SENATOR DIAZ: Are you willing to 4 tell the sponsor, to ask the sponsor of the 5 bill -- 6 SENATOR VOLKER: I'm not the 7 sponsor. He's the sponsor. Senator Flanagan. 8 SENATOR DIAZ: Are you willing to 9 ask the sponsor of the bill to draft the bill 10 exclusively for drug dealers, rich drug 11 dealers? Are you willing to do that? 12 SENATOR VOLKER: So you're saying 13 if somebody shoots somebody and has gotten 14 probation, that we shouldn't include them in 15 this bill? 16 SENATOR DIAZ: Will the 17 sponsor -- would the Senator -- 18 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Would 19 you like Senator Volker to yield or Senator 20 Flanagan, Senator Diaz? 21 SENATOR DIAZ: No, I'm talking to 22 Senator Volker. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 24 Volker, will you yield to another question 25 from Senator Diaz?

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR VOLKER: I yield. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 3 Diaz. 4 SENATOR DIAZ: Senator Volker, we 5 are dealing with this bill. You are the one 6 bringing in rich drug dealers in this 7 equation. So I'm saying the bill, okay, 8 includes everybody. But if you want to do the 9 bill exclusively for those rich drug dealers, 10 I will support it. 11 SENATOR VOLKER: I'm sure you 12 would, yeah. 13 SENATOR DIAZ: I will support it. 14 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure. 15 SENATOR DIAZ: But we're talking 16 about the other people, the people -- the 17 parents, the father, the mother. You know, 18 someone that really commit a crime, went to 19 jail, is coming out -- 20 SENATOR VOLKER: No. 21 SENATOR DIAZ: -- is coming 22 out -- 23 SENATOR VOLKER: Most of these 24 people are not coming out. They're on 25 probation.

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 2 Diaz, Senator Volker has the floor. You've 3 asked your question. 4 SENATOR VOLKER: You're 5 misinterpreting this bill. I am telling you 6 that this bill is for people on probation, 7 basically. This is not parole. They don't 8 come out of jail. 9 SENATOR DIAZ: I'm -- I'm -- 10 SENATOR VOLKER: Most of the 11 people on probation -- 12 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 13 Diaz, you're out of order. He's answering the 14 question. 15 SENATOR DIAZ: Could the 16 Senator -- 17 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: You 18 would like to address another question, 19 Senator Diaz? 20 SENATOR DIAZ: Yes, Mr. 21 President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 23 Volker, will you yield for another question? 24 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes, I will. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: He will

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(518) 371-8910 1 yield, Senator Diaz. 2 SENATOR DIAZ: I just want, 3 Mr. President, to be clear, because Senator 4 Volker brought to the floor rich drug dealers, 5 making believe, making believe that we are in 6 favor of letting the rich drug dealers get 7 away and implying, implying that the bill is 8 made for rich drug dealers -- 9 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: What is 10 your question, Senator? 11 SENATOR DIAZ: I'm trying to 12 clarify -- I just want to the Senator to 13 clarify, to be clear, to answer to me 14 clearly -- 15 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Address 16 it in the form of a question, please, Senator 17 Diaz. 18 SENATOR DIAZ: Okay. Senator 19 Volker, will you please be clear enough and 20 explain to the viewers that are watching you 21 that this bill is not only for drug dealers 22 and that when you refer to the drug dealers, 23 the rich drug dealers, you are not implying 24 that we are here protecting drug dealers. 25 SENATOR VOLKER: Of course not.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator, may I just point out 2 something. I was pointing out that it could 3 do that. I am pointing out to you, Senator -- 4 I don't know about viewers, all I know is 5 reality, in the real world. And the real 6 world is it could apply to wealthy drug 7 dealers, is all I'm saying. 8 It applies to all sorts of people, 9 but primarily it applies to people with money. 10 Because if you don't have money, you're not 11 involved in it, because automatically it's 12 waived. He gave you what it says. 13 And I'm telling you in your 14 district, I bet you that not one cent of fines 15 and fees and so forth has been collected over 16 the years, because judges just don't do it. 17 And it's -- in fact, it's a little 18 frustrating, because I have poor people in my 19 district too. 20 Senator, you don't realize, you 21 don't understand the criminal justice in 22 New York City. I'm sorry. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 24 Diaz, you must allow the Senator to continue 25 to answer the question before interruption.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Do you have a further question? Do 2 you have a further question, Senator Diaz? 3 SENATOR DIAZ: I have a 4 clarification here. Can I? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: No, you 6 cannot. You are asking a question. You rose 7 to ask a question. 8 Senator Volker has the floor, is 9 speaking on the bill. 10 SENATOR DIAZ: Thank you. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 12 Volker, on the bill. 13 SENATOR VOLKER: And I shouldn't, 14 I suppose, get excited. But I got to tell you 15 something. We've got to live in the real 16 world. 17 And Senator Hassell-Thompson, you 18 talked about the real world. And I agree with 19 you that there probably are some probation 20 officers, and you should know, who do things. 21 That can be overruled. There's no question 22 about it, because it happens constantly if 23 they want to do it. Now, if the people have 24 money, that's true, they got a problem. 25 I believe in reentry. I believe in

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(518) 371-8910 1 helping wherever we can. But I also don't 2 believe in fooling ourself into thinking that 3 a bill like this has anything to do with 4 people that can't afford to pay the fees. Of 5 course it doesn't. 6 This is aimed primarily at people 7 who can afford to pay the fees and can be made 8 to make sure that the regular taxpayers, 9 whoever they are, rich or poor, end up funding 10 for those people. That's what it's about. 11 That's why the Senator is talking -- that's 12 why NYSAC supports it, that's why all these 13 people support it. 14 The problem is we seem to say, Ah, 15 those poor people. Well, the poor people are 16 not paying. And that's not wrong. I'm not 17 saying they should. But I think we have to 18 realize that this is a real world. It's not a 19 political world. In a political world, we 20 don't have to do any of this stuff. And 21 that's what many people, unfortunately, in the 22 City of New York are saying. 23 Let's not say that maybe they have 24 to pay. But that's not the real world. The 25 real world is different. And a lot of

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(518) 371-8910 1 constituents don't seem to understand what 2 really happens in the criminal justice system. 3 That's all I'm saying. That's why Senator 4 Flanagan's bill makes a lot of sense. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Debate 6 is closed. 7 The Secretary will ring the bell. 8 I mentioned earlier, Senator 9 Schneiderman, that Senator Volker would be 10 closing. Would you like to explain your vote? 11 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you, 12 I would like to explain my vote. But I'll 13 wait till we ring those bells. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Thank 15 you, Senator. 16 Read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 20 Schneiderman, to explain his vote. 21 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you, 22 Mr. President. Very briefly. 23 This was another good debate. 24 We're starting to get into the spirit here. 25 I do want to take Senator Volker's

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(518) 371-8910 1 admonition that we get back into the real 2 world. And, my colleagues, the real world is 3 not a world in which people get probation for 4 shooting someone, with all due respect to my 5 esteemed colleague, leader, and personal hero, 6 Senator Volker. The real world is not a place 7 where rich people deal street drugs. 8 I mean, you know, I'm sorry, I -- 9 you know, Senator Liz Krueger has a lot of bad 10 people in her district, but there are not a 11 lot of street drug dealers on the Upper East 12 Side of Manhattan. Rich people have other 13 ways to steal money and to engage in criminal 14 activities. 15 The truth of the matter is this. 16 The only people who will be hurt by this bill 17 are poor people who are on probation and 18 hopefully some of them -- and we know some of 19 them, from all of the statistical evidence, 20 are trying to get their lives back together. 21 It is not true that all the fees 22 are waived for everyone who's poor. If you 23 look at the section of this bill, which I 24 would urge the sponsor to edit if he wants to 25 revisit the issue, all it says is that the

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(518) 371-8910 1 determination of whether the fee shall be 2 waived shall be made by the probation 3 department based on regulations to be 4 promulgated. 5 There's no procedure with judges. 6 This could be arbitrarily done, there could be 7 mistakes made. And even if people have a job 8 at the point the determination is made, they 9 may lose that job. This hurts people trying 10 to get back into society. It is punitive. 11 The only people affected are the poor people 12 who are on probation. 13 I realize there are some rich 14 people who -- Paris Hilton types -- but it is 15 a very small number. The overwhelming number 16 of probationers in the State of New York are 17 poor people of color. I do understand how the 18 criminal justice works in New York City, and 19 that is an unassailable truth. 20 I vote no, Your Honor. Oh, excuse 21 me, Mr. President. 22 (Laughter.) 23 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 24 Schneiderman, thank you. You will be recorded 25 in the negative.

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(518) 371-8910 1 And let's call the roll now. 2 SENATOR DIAZ: Hello. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: We're 4 calling the roll now. 5 (The Secretary called the roll.) 6 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 7 Diaz, to explain his vote. 8 SENATOR DIAZ: Thank you, 9 Mr. President. Or should I join my colleague 10 and call you Your Honor? 11 I just want to say that, you know, 12 even though in words the bill says that it is 13 not established to be a condition for 14 probation, I just want all of you to know that 15 last year the probation department -- 16 probation officer came to me because now, as 17 Senator Hassell-Thompson said, they are paying 18 $30. The people on parole, they're paying 19 $30. And they are forcing -- the department 20 is forcing the parole officers to collect 21 those fees. 22 And what happens is that they have 23 put a quota, a quota on probation officers to 24 collect the fees. And the probation office 25 has stopped doing their duties as probation

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(518) 371-8910 1 officers, and now they've become collectors. 2 They've become collectors. 3 And we passed a bill here in the 4 Senate, I sponsored the bill, my son has 5 sponsored the bill in the Assembly, it passed, 6 and Governor Pataki vetoed it last year. But 7 I'm afraid that this bill also will do the 8 same, putting another burden on parole 9 officers. And parole officers have enough 10 work to do supervising parolees and not 11 being -- collecting money and making that part 12 of their duties as a quota, as a quota. So 13 they are forcing people to do it. 14 And -- and with all due respect to 15 all of you and to the sponsor, this bill will 16 affect poor people. Poor people that are not 17 drug dealers, poor people that are not 18 criminals per se, that kind of criminal. They 19 made a mistake, they come on parole and 20 probation, and they're going to be forced to 21 pay money that they don't have. 22 And that's why, Mr. President, I'm 23 voting against this bill and I'm asking 24 everybody else to vote against this bill. 25 This is a not-good bill.

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 2 Diaz to be recorded in the negative. 3 Senator Hassell-Thompson. 4 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: Well, 5 actually, Mr. President, I just raised my hand 6 to vote no. But I will take this opportunity 7 to make this final comment. 8 It's very interesting, Senator 9 Volker, that you talked about the fact that 10 these are not poor people that we're 11 targeting. And yet to my knowledge the rich 12 drug dealers that you're talking about very 13 rarely, if ever, use the product. Okay? And 14 so that they're not the ones that need drug 15 testing. But rather, it is users who get 16 drug-tested. 17 And the other thing is that I would 18 be more than happy to bring you receipts, 19 Senator Volker, from some young men that I 20 know in my district, including my nephew, who 21 has to pay his $30 a month. And this bill 22 does in fact say releasees. Releasees. I 23 read the bill. And so to tell me that it's 24 only probation is not accurate. And reading 25 is fundamental, even for me.

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 2 Flanagan, to explain his vote. 3 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Thank you, 4 Mr. President. 5 It's certainly an enlightening 6 discussion. In the context of the real world, 7 I want to share that I learned something new 8 today. Senator Volker, I never knew this 9 before, is obviously a Paris Hilton fan. 10 (Laughter.) 11 SENATOR VOLKER: It's true. 12 Absolutely. 13 SENATOR FLANAGAN: In relation to 14 this bill, I think this points up, in my 15 estimation, some fundamental differences. I 16 listened very carefully and very clearly to 17 the comments of my colleagues. But this bill 18 didn't go on, you know, overnight. This bill 19 was discussed, it was vetted, it was brought 20 by the New York State Association of Counties. 21 And yes, I have correspondence and 22 I have documentation from people who have 23 nothing to do with the area I represent, 24 statewide organizations weighing in in favor 25 of something like this. And frankly, I also

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(518) 371-8910 1 have had discussions with the probation 2 director in Suffolk County, have 3 correspondence of their strong support, 4 because they are administering the programs. 5 So for anyone to suggest that 6 somehow this is only going after poor people, 7 I couldn't disagree more. There's specific 8 language in the bill, which people don't seem 9 to want to pay attention to, that allows for a 10 hardship waiver. And for anyone to suggest 11 that, oh, we're only going after poor people, 12 that's just ridiculous. 13 The whole point of the bill is to 14 make sure that a practice that had been 15 started by the counties that was running well 16 and operating smoothly and efficiently is now 17 done in a legal way. It's to help our 18 counties. It's to make sure that they don't 19 have deficits. 20 And frankly, on a policy basis, I 21 think our constituents, no matter where you 22 live in the State of New York, it's common 23 sense and they would support it. 24 Thank you. 25 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO:

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(518) 371-8910 1 Announce the results. 2 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 3 the negative on Calendar Number 678 are 4 Senators Adams, Breslin, Connor, Diaz, Dilan, 5 Duane, Gonzalez, Hassell-Thompson, Huntley, 6 L. Krueger, Montgomery, Parker, Perkins, 7 Sabini, Sampson, Schneiderman, Serrano, Smith, 8 Stavisky and Stewart-Cousins. 9 Absent from voting: Senator 10 Wright. 11 Ayes, 39. Nays, 20. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 13 bill is passed. 14 Senator Skelos. 15 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 16 would you please lay aside for the day 17 Calendar 737. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 19 bill is laid aside for the day. 20 SENATOR SKELOS: And also on 21 Calendar Number 728, with the consent of the 22 Minority, if we could take it off the 23 controversial calendar and put it on the 24 noncontroversial calendar. 25 SENATOR DUANE: Yes.

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: So 2 ordered. 3 The Secretary will read. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 728, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 849, an 6 act to amend the Social Services Law. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Read 8 the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect on the 60th day. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Call 12 the roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 60. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: The 16 bill is passed. 17 Senator Skelos. 18 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 19 is there any further business to come before 20 the Senate? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: Senator 22 Farley has a motion. 23 Senator Farley. 24 SENATOR FARLEY: Senator Skelos, 25 thank you for taking that off controversial.

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(518) 371-8910 1 On behalf of Senator Robach, 2 Mr. President, I move to amend Senate Bill 3 3097A by striking out the amendments made on 4 April 23rd and restoring it to its original 5 print number, which is 3097. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: So 7 ordered. 8 Senator Skelos. 9 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, 10 there being no further business to come before 11 the Senate, I move we stand adjourned until 12 Wednesday, May 9th, at 11:00 a.m. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT GRIFFO: On 14 motion, the Senate stands adjourned until 15 Wednesday, May 9th, at 11:00 a.m. 16 (Whereupon, at 4:58 p.m., the 17 Senate adjourned.) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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