Forum/Town Hall Roundtable Discussion

1 NEW YORK STATE SENATE COMMITTEE ON

HOUSING, CONSTRUCTION, AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT 2 --------------------------------------------------

FORUM/TOWN HALL 3

ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION 4

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Senate Hearing Room 6 250 Broadway

New York, New York 10007 7

October 15, 2011 8 1:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. 9

PRESIDING:10

Senator Catharine M. Young 11 Chair 12

ROUNDTABLE PARTICIPANTS:13

Frank Anelante 14 CEO

Lemle and Wolff 15

Vicki Been 16 A Faculty Director

Furman Center for Real Estate and Urban Policy; 17 and law professor, NYU Law School 18 Judy Calogero

CEO 19 New York Housing Conference 20 Howard Husock

Vice President, Policy Research 21 Manhattan Institute for Public Policy 22 Jerilyn Perine

Executive Director 23 Citizens Housing and Planning Council 24

ALSO PARTICIPATING:Howard - Back Row 25 1 SENATOR YOUNG: Everyone has a busy schedule, 2 so why don't we begin. 3 First of all, I'd like to formally introduce 4 myself. 5 I'm Senator Catharine Young, and I have been 6 in Senate since 2005. Was elected to the 7 State Assembly in 1998. 8 I've known Judy for a long time, because, 9 while I was in the Assembly, I was ranking member on 10 the Housing Committee. 11 So, this year, I was appointed as the Chair 12 of the Senate Housing Committee on Housing, 13 Construction, Community Development. 14 And, so, I've been trying to immerse myself 15 in housing issues. And, as we get ready for the new 16 session, it's important that we discuss policies, 17 and we have ideas. 18 And, today, I'm hoping that we can have a 19 free-flowing, stimulating conversation about housing 20 issues, some of the challenges that we face, some 21 of the solutions. 22 And what's interesting about this group, is, 23 you look around, is that there are different 24 viewpoints represented at the table. But I think 25 that's good, because we'll be able to have a lively 1 discussion on some of the issues at hand. 2 So, I thought we could begin by going around 3 the table, and everyone introducing themselves, and 4 sharing which organization they're with. 5 JUDY CALOGERO: Great. 6 And are we taping, so I should -- 7 SENATOR YOUNG: Yes, we're taping. 8 JUDY COLOGERO: We are taping. 9 SENATOR YOUNG: Yes. 10 JUDY CALOGERO: I'm Judy Calogero. I'm the 11 CEO of the New York Housing Conference. 12 It's a pleasure to be here. 13 Thank you, Senator, for bringing us together. 14 SENATOR YOUNG: And why don't you could share 15 your background. I think everyone knows. 16 JUDY COLOGERO: I have over 30 years of 17 experience in the affordable-housing industry. 18 Quite a bit with non-profit organizations. 12 years 19 with the State of New York. 20 I had the pleasure of serving at the 21 Division of Housing and Community Renewal as their 22 deputy commissioner for community development. 23 When you became ranking on Assembly Housing 24 Committee, and spent, I think, a week with you, 25 touring the state. 1 And, I think that -- one of the things that 2 I'm so grateful that you have ascended to this post, 3 is because, during that week, we covered the entire 4 state. And your interests expounded beyond your 5 district. You showed a true interest in wanting to 6 learn more about this topic from, both, the rural 7 perspective, the suburban perspective, and the urban 8 perspective. 9 We came here to the city, and you were the 10 first person -- first elected official to see one of 11 the state -- State Tax Credit projects. 12 And, the gentleman sitting across from me was 13 one of the first developers of the State Tax Credit 14 project, but not the one that you saw. 15 She saw Caposha's (ph.) deal on -- in Harlem. 16 But, to have that -- that involvement at that 17 time, and to bring that into this current position 18 that you hold, is important to us in the housing 19 world, important to the New York Housing Conference. 20 We're grateful that you came to meet with our 21 board members in our Young Leadership Council. 22 And, we're grateful for your leadership on 23 the improvements that we've proposed, and you've 24 agreed are needed, for the State Tax Credit Program. 25 But, I'm interested to be here today, to talk 1 about issues related to that, and beyond that, 2 because it's -- there are compelling issues that 3 we're facing. 4 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. 5 Thank you, Judy. 6 JUDY COLOGERO: Thank you, Senator. 7 Vicki. 8 VICKI BEEN: Oh, I'm Vicki Been. I'm a law 9 professor at NYU Law School; and a faculty director 10 of the Furman Center for Real Estate and Urban 11 Policy, which is a joint research center between 12 NYU's Law School and its Wagner School of Public 13 Service. 14 We are not an advocacy organization, so we 15 don't back particular legislation, or -- but we 16 really are a research organization that provides 17 data and analysis. And we work, most especially, on 18 a couple of different issues. 19 We've built a database called the 20 "Subsidized Housing Information Project," which 21 brings together information about every 22 subsidized -- every unit subsidized under one of the 23 major corporums in New York, to try to help us do 24 preservation smarter and more effectively. 25 And we've got a great deal of research about 1 when projects opt out, when they stay in, and how 2 that could work better. 3 We do a lot of work on the effect of 4 affordable housing on neighborhoods, in terms of 5 property values, in terms of crime. 6 You might have seen some news in the last 7 couple of weeks about our study, indicating that 8 voucher recipients do not bring crime to the 9 neighborhood, unlike some of the contentions in 10 the Atlantic, and other places. 11 We've also done a great deal of work on 12 foreclosures; and, both, what precipitates 13 foreclosure, who's getting modifications, how those 14 modifications are performing, and then, how 15 foreclosures are affecting neighborhoods. 16 And then, last, but not least, we have 17 recently gotten a great deal of data from around the 18 country -- not New York, but around the country -- 19 about the tax-credit properties and the tenants who 20 live in them. And, are doing a lot of work, trying 21 to look at the income levels of tenants who are 22 being served by the -- by the tax-credit properties, 23 and, you know, what's that -- what that is looking 24 like. 25 So, we really are a source of data and 1 analysis about the situation. 2 SENATOR YOUNG: Great, thank you. 3 Howard. 4 HOWARD HUSOCK: I'm Howard Husock. I'm 5 vice president for policy and research at the 6 Manhattan Institute for Policy Research. 7 And even though I oversee the portfolio of 8 research projects at the institute, I've, myself, 9 written about housing policy for about 20 years. 10 I wrote a book in 2003 called 11 "The Trillion Dollar Housing Mistake," which was a 12 critique of subsidizing and public housing projects 13 in certain ways. 14 And before that, I was 19 years at the 15 Kennedy School of Government, where I was director 16 of case studies, and a member of the management 17 faculty. 18 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. Thank you. 19 JERILYN PERINE: My name is Jerilyn Perine, 20 and I'm executive director of the Citizens Housing 21 and Planning Council. 22 We're the oldest civic organization in 23 New York City that's been focused on housing and 24 (inaudible) matters. 25 We started in 1937, different sort of time, 1 and a different set of problems, but, you know, 2 oddly -- oddly similar to now. 3 I'm an urban planner. I worked in 4 New York City government, in different capacities, 5 for 28 years, before I took over this 6 organization. 7 I was 18 years in the City's Housing 8 Department: Housing, Preservation, and Development. 9 And I was commissioner for Mayor Giuliani, 10 and then, again, for Mayor Bloomberg. 11 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. Great, thank you, 12 Jerilyn. 13 Frank. 14 FRANK ANELANTE: I'm Frank Anelante. I'm the 15 CEO of Lemle and Wolff. 16 We're an affordable-housing manager and 17 developer. The firm was formed in 1938. 18 I was a CPA, and "CPC" was my client; 19 Community Preservation Corporation. I left the 20 public accounting world; became about their 21 treasurer in 1977. 22 Went to Lemle in 1980. Became a principal in 23 '82. And, since then, I was able to grow the firm, 24 from about a 1,000 units, to well over 7,000 now. 25 It is a -- it is a firm that devotes itself 1 to affordable housing. 2 We're up in -- we were up in 3 Washington Heights. Now we're in the Bronx. 4 We believe in rehabilitating all our housing. 5 We started out, with the help of Jerilyn, and 6 HPD, with moderate rehabs, with tenants and 7 occupancy. 8 We went on to vacant buildings. 9 Now we do new construction. 10 And, virtually, our whole portfolio is 11 affordable housing. 12 And I do believe in our model, where we just 13 rehabilitate to, you know, get the economic and 14 physical viability back to where they are, because 15 they go hand and hand. And by rehabilitating on a 16 regular basis -- and that's every 20 or 30 years, 17 real rehabilitating -- we find that, by doing that, 18 and not just putting on mortgages and taking money 19 out, we're able to keep the portfolios and the 20 neighborhoods viable. 21 So, it's been a success. 22 And I do thank you for inviting me, because 23 there is a housing crisis, especially, and I think 24 there's -- the underbelly is not even recognized, I 25 think, by many politicians, where we have it, like 1 in New York City -- and I can only speak to the 2 City -- where we have this vast -- it's -- there's 3 also an older housing stock here in the City. And, 4 much of it's deteriorating, and not getting any 5 better. It doesn't get better with age unless you 6 rehabilitate. 7 And that's not being done on the scale it 8 should be, for a variety of reasons. 9 So, in addition to need for new construction 10 and new housing, we do have to preserve what we 11 have. And I think that's a big problem. 12 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. 13 Okay, well, thank you, Frank. 14 So, with that, I would open it up for 15 discussion. 16 You were sent a series of questions, and 17 those are, you know, kind of specific questions, 18 but, we'd like to have kind of broad-based 19 discussion. 20 And, you know, you started a little bit, 21 Frank, but the questions tie into the questions 22 that I'll be asking today. 23 So, the first question is: How do we 24 determine the real level of housing assistance 25 needs, and the adequacy of current levels of 1 housing assistance? 2 And anybody can jump in. 3 JERILYN PERINE: Well, you know, I think one 4 straightforward way, is to look at the people who 5 fall out at the bottom of the bucket. 6 Right? 7 So, I mean, there's the obvious need, that 8 you can see in New York City, with a growing, 9 particularly, family-homelessness segment. 10 So -- so that's one. 11 The other, and the one where our organization 12 spends more of its time focusing on, is this really 13 growing underground illegal housing market. 14 So, again, these are people who, for a whole 15 host of reasons, cannot find housing in the 16 housing market; right? In the normal legal housing 17 market. 18 For some, that adaptation, and obtaining 19 housing in this underground illegal housing market, 20 puts them in, both, illegal circumstances, makes 21 them vulnerable that way, but, also, can make them 22 physically vulnerable. 23 SENATOR YOUNG: Could you give some 24 examples? 25 JERILYN PERINE: Well, what we've seen in 1 New York, it's kind of, sort of like, the rise of 2 building fires, where people are dying in fires. 3 And what ends up being turned up in the story 4 of the fire, is illegal occupancy: A basement. A 5 cellar. An attic. Tremendous overcrowding in an 6 apartment, which leads to furniture blocking 7 windows and exits; or people in rooms that 8 don't -- that then don't have a means of egress in 9 a fire. 10 We also had, in -- you know, one of the worst 11 examples, a building in the Bronx, that there was 12 a fire -- 13 HOWARD - BACK ROW: (Inaudible.) 14 JERILYN PERINE: No, that wasn't the building 15 I was thinking of. 16 HOWARD - BACK ROW: Oh. 17 JERILYN PERINE: -- where our two firemen 18 were killed, because they went into an apartment 19 that had been illegally subdivided. They didn't 20 know those partition walls were there. They got 21 turned around, they weren't able to escape, and they 22 died. 23 The City's response, you know, which I 24 wouldn't argue, was to step up enforcement against 25 this kind of illegal occupancy, which is important. 1 But, that kind of occupancy is an expression of an 2 unmet market need. 3 So if -- I mean, to just -- to just -- to 4 just use enforcement, but not recognize that the 5 need is not going to go away because you enforce the 6 laws. 7 So, we might need some other solutions, which 8 we think is about, you know, changing the shape 9 inside of housing, and creating more choices in the 10 marketplace. 11 SENATOR YOUNG: Okay, Howard would like to 12 jump in. 13 HOWARD HUSOCK: I certainly agree with 14 Geraldine [sic], that we really have to learn from 15 those kinds of situations that people are putting 16 themselves in. 17 But I wanted to return to your phrase: That 18 we see this kind of thing for a host of reasons. 19 And I don't think that we should ignore the 20 possibility that the housing market, as it exists in 21 New York, is profoundly distorted by some of the 22 systems that we already have in place. 23 And one of those, that I would point out, and 24 the Bronx is a great example, because we have a lot 25 of public housing in the Bronx. I mean, there is 1 really a lot of public housing in the Bronx. 2 Probably the densest concentration, next to East and 3 Central Harlem, in the United States. 4 But, we know that John Rhea at the -- at 5 NYCHA was saying, that up to 40,000 units, out of 6 180,000, are underoccupied. 7 And, so, we're seeing a mismatch between the 8 needs of those, right in the same neighborhoods 9 as that public housing, and public housing that the 10 City and the State have made an historic, really 11 significant, investment in, which has been 12 underutilized right now. 13 Now, I understand, as soon I raise an issue 14 like that, it is no simple matter to think about how 15 to align the needs. But I do think it's something 16 that we ought to dedicate ourselves to thinking 17 about, how do we minimize the kind of distortions 18 that end up forcing people into those very 19 unfortunate kind of situations. 20 SENATOR YOUNG: Thanks, Howard. 21 Yes, Frank. 22 FRANK ANELANTE: The City actually started a 23 program on its Mod Section 8 buildings some time 24 ago. And I don't remember, it was probably around 25 seven years ago, where, when we had -- and we had 1 a number of Mod Section 8 buildings in our 2 portfolio, so it was project-based Section 8. And 3 when there was a mismatch in family applies to the 4 apartments, we were required to move the tenants, 5 and the tenants had to move. 6 And we were able to do it, but it meant a 7 tremendous amount of resistance. 8 And I agree with your point, it should be 9 addressed. It's -- and the City did address it for 10 a time. And it was -- but it was a big lift, 11 because people didn't want to leave, where they were 12 going. And, ultimately, sometimes, you had to drop 13 them from Section 8. 14 It was a -- it was a big burden. 15 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. 16 Yes? 17 VICKI BEEN: I want to expand the frame-up, 18 because I completely agree that the homeless and 19 the -- and those people housed in illegal 20 subdivisions are one sign of the problem. But I 21 think another sign of the problem is, just the 22 tremendous number of people who are extremely 23 rent-burdened. 24 Right? 25 The number of people who are paying more than 1 30 percent of their income, more than 50 percent of 2 their income, just on rent, keeps going up, as 3 housing prices go up, as wages stay stagnant. 4 SENATOR YOUNG: We have done an extensive 5 study on this. 6 VICKI BEEN: Yes, we have documented that; 7 and also documented how few of the housing units 8 that are being built are, you know, accessible to 9 the people in those price ranges, either, because, 10 not enough is being built in that price range, not 11 enough is filtering down in that price range, or, 12 you know, it's being, you know, devoted into 13 other -- into other sources. 14 So... 15 JUDY CALOGERO: And I'd like to jump on that, 16 because I see that a lot in the work that I do, 17 both, through the New York Housing Conference, and 18 through some consulting work I do. But, the -- 19 there is a huge rent burden that's been documented, 20 I think, in part, by the Furman Center, but also by 21 other studies as well. 22 And what -- I think what happens in public 23 policy is, we end up with a program, or a series of 24 programs -- and you can take any number of the 25 programs, like, the State Tax Credit, or the 1 Housing Trust Fund -- and they're written at a point 2 in time when there's a specific need, or an idea 3 that is put forward, and we put in place 4 parameters for those programs, including income 5 guidelines. 6 We're writing accurate at that time, but they 7 don't necessarily work today. 8 And if there is capacity to build more 9 flexibility into some of these programs, it would 10 be tremendously helpful for the entities -- 11 non-profit, for-profit, local governments -- that 12 end up using these programs to meet various 13 different needs across the city. 14 FRANK ANELANTE: Well, that's also the second 15 point: How do we adequately define 16 "affordable housing"? 17 It's not just for very low-income people, or 18 low-income people. In fact, like the state tax 19 credit; whereas, a tax-credit program could target 20 30 percent of AMI, with 60 percent of AMI, the state 21 tax credit targeted to 120 percent of AMI. 22 And that fulfilled a big need. We had no 23 problem renting. I mean, there were plenty of 24 people that wanted our product. The rents were a 25 little higher, but they were still affordable to 1 those people. 2 So it's, really, I think what you said, 3 that -- really, that 30 percent; it's 30 percent of, 4 no matter what income bracket you're in, it's -- 5 it's -- there's a derth of housing, generally, in 6 that bracket. 7 JUDY CALOGERO: I think we all struggle, 8 every day, to find new ways to explain what it is 9 that we do, and why it's so important to our 10 communities. 11 I had an interesting dialogue, about 12 two weeks ago, with a BID -- Business Improvement 13 District -- personnel in Queens. 14 And you -- we have our business -- on one 15 hand, the Business Improvement District Corporation 16 that is working to bring new businesses into the 17 area. And the businesses that they're bringing in 18 are employing people at a certain income level: 19 Hotels. There was a -- a Home Depot. 20 And this -- these people from this 21 Business Improvement District were saying that they 22 were opposed to affordable housing; and, yet, they 23 didn't realize that the very housing that was being 24 proposed, because they had this label on it called 25 "affordable housing," was really there to serve the 1 very people that they were bringing in and creating 2 jobs for. 3 And, so, there's this disconnect. 4 We actually used data from the Furman Center 5 to help to make our case, and to have a conversation 6 with them in a different way, in a different light, 7 that could shine light on that. 8 But, if you could simply say that 9 affordable housing is really about providing housing 10 opportunities for the very people who are going to 11 live and work in a neighborhood, where you're 12 creating economic-development opportunities, they 13 also need to have housing. 14 HOWARD HUSOCK: At the same time, what 15 conclusion can one draw from Vicki's accurate 16 description of the rent burden that families feel? 17 No city, and no state, has put forward more 18 affordable-housing programs, over the 19 generations, than New York City. 20 Yet, if you go to Los Angeles, and you go to 21 Chicago, you don't hear this same kind of 22 discussion: We have a housing crisis here. 23 It becomes a perennial discussion in 24 New York. 25 So one begins to wonder: Does the fact of 1 the rent burden inevitably call for another 2 intervention, another program, and another 3 adjustment in an existing program, (inaudible) in an 4 effort to take stock of the programs, as a group, 5 to see whom they're serving, who they should serve, 6 and whether they can be altered in a way that 7 limits some of the distortion that may actually be 8 freezing some households out of housing, that 9 would otherwise be able to afford, and for which 10 they would be less burdened. 11 VICKI BEEN: Well, I'd go further, not to 12 challenge you, Howard, but, it's about the 13 distortion -- maybe some potential distortions in 14 the programs that need to be paid attention to, 15 but it's also distortions in the market's ability 16 to provide housing at prices that would be 17 affordable; right? 18 HOWARD HUSOCK: Right. 19 VICKI BEEN: So, we need to look at both 20 ends, not just what's happening with the housing 21 programs, but: 22 Why are we not zoning to allow more building? 23 Why are we not changing the building code in 24 ways that would allow the kind of housing that, 25 really, Jerilyn has been championing; the champion 1 of? 2 And, you know, why are we, both, creating 3 enormous costs to housing, and then trying, at the 4 same time, to desperately fill that need that we're, 5 in some ways, creating? 6 HOWARD HUSOCK: It's the perfect question. 7 You know? 8 And, in answer to, you know, the, "What is 9 affordable housing?" 10 Well, "affordable housing" is people -- 11 housing people can afford, but, what gets them to 12 that point? 13 And I suspect Vicki would agree with this, is 14 that, then City creates affordability. 15 And that's how affordability has historically 16 been sustainably created in New York City. 17 So, Brooklyn was, and is, affordable in many 18 places, because you have so many units on square 19 acre. 20 People are desperately trying to create 21 affordability through the kind of unfortunate 22 adjustments they're making, that you described. 23 And, so, are there ways? 24 I think it's a great question: Are there 25 ways the City can revisit the zoning code, and 1 other, you know, God knows, accessibility 2 requirements? 3 The whole world of ULURP, right, that 4 builds in higher costs, rather than saying, 5 that's amenable; and, therefore, we have to 6 subsidize construction, or maintain the stock of 7 subsidized housing that we have, in perpetuity, at a 8 time of tremendous, tremendous fiscal stress. 9 JERILYN PERINE: Yeah, I think I would be 10 careful, though, about, sort of, isolating just 11 the -- the sort of, affordable, or subsidized, 12 stock. 13 I mean -- and it's fine to say that there's 14 underoccupied NYCHA housing, but, you know, half of 15 the apartments in Manhattan, "half," are occupied 16 by a single person living alone. 17 So that's not just about, sort of, the 18 subsidized stock. We're stuck in the housing market 19 here. 20 HOWARD HUSOCK: Rent-controlled too. 21 JERILYN PERINE: Well, very few people are 22 actually rent-controlled, Howard. I mean, that's a 23 very small number of people. 24 HOWARD HUSOCK: True. 25 JERILYN PERINE: But, you know, what you 1 really have are a shrinking number of choices for 2 people. So people get stuck if they're in a place, 3 whether it's the -- you know, the elderly woman in 4 St. Albans, Queens, who's got the four-bedroom house 5 that she raised her family in, and doesn't want to 6 (inaudible) the four-bedroom house, but doesn't 7 really have a viable option for herself. 8 You know? 9 Or, it is the person in public housing who's, 10 you know, underoccupying, or -- whatever it is. 11 It's a range of people, they're stuck, 12 because that's not enough movement in the housing 13 market. 14 JUDY CALOGERO: You can't disregard that this 15 is a very personal issue, and an emotional issue. 16 And the fact that, maybe, you don't own where 17 you love, doesn't mean that you don't call it home, 18 "your home." And, the longer you're there, the more 19 you come to believe, "That's mine." 20 JERILYN PERINE: Right, but the more 21 disconnected you are from the cost. 22 If it's actually your home, you do reach a 23 point where maybe you can't afford to keep it. 24 And, this, I think, is a distortion in our 25 overly rental housing market in New York. 1 And, so, you know, you don't have to pay, you 2 know, for what those increasing costs are, really, 3 for a lot of people. And I think this is where we 4 would agree. 5 But, I think -- you know, for me, it's less a 6 question of the economics, in a way, and it's more 7 a question of the products being put forward. 8 You know, if you look at cities all over the 9 world, they've got -- you know, I mean, a lot of 10 them has no minimum-space standards for its housing 11 units. Neither does Tokyo. 12 You know, in Vienna, you can rent an 13 apartment in downtown Vienna, that is rented, that's 14 250 square feet, that comes furnished, that you 15 get to live in for six months, and then you're 16 supposed to leave. 17 You know, all of these things in New York 18 City are highly regulated very much in these silos. 19 It becomes very difficult for real people to adapt 20 to changing conditions. 21 I mean, we have more single people than we've 22 had in a long time. People stay single longer. 23 People are looking to share, for -- 24 sometimes, for economic reasons, sometimes for 25 social reasons, sometimes for cultural reasons. 1 Often, those all create illegal situations. 2 If we could kind of uncork some of the 3 creativity in the marketplace, and sort of relieve 4 them of some of these burdens, at the same time, 5 increasing density where that's appropriate, you 6 could begin to see, you know, a growth, let's say, 7 of housing options in the city that we haven't had 8 for a very long time. 9 JUDY CALOGERO: I've also seen, in Hong Kong 10 and China, an average of 80-square-feet per person 11 in public housing. And the quality of life is very 12 poor. 13 And I don't -- I -- you know -- 14 JERILYN PERINE: For anybody, though, Judy. 15 FRANK ANELANTE: (Inaudible) life in some of 16 these un-rehabilitated buildings is really 17 horrifying. 18 JERILYN PERINE: And the quality of life in a 19 cardboard box on the subway grate is not that great 20 either. So -- 21 FRANK ANELANTE: Another dynamic that's 22 hitting, and it's not as obvious, is the speculation 23 that's happening in the affordable-housing market. 24 I mean, you have speculators coming in, and 25 they're paying outrageous prices on buildings. 1 I mean, I operate buildings, and I know what 2 it costs to operate, and I know the mortgages they 3 can keep. 4 And these guys are well overpaying. And, as 5 a result, they're pushing rents up as much as they 6 can, which is forcing people to double- and 7 triple-up, and whatever. 8 It's also taking the housing out of the 9 affordable realm. And it's also stymieing 10 rehabilitation, because the owner is going to say: 11 Why should I rehabilitate? I'm just going sell this 12 for -- you know, make my money, and walk away. 13 So, that's a whole nother problem, but it is 14 impacting it. 15 HOWARD - BACK ROW: I think it's still 16 occurring, right, Frank? 17 JERILYN PERINE: Right. 18 FRANK ANELANTE: It's still occurring. 19 HOWARD - BACK ROW: That hasn't -- 20 FRANK ANELANTE: That is still occurring. 21 HOWARD - BACK ROW: -- even with the 22 financial collapse? 23 FRANK ANELANTE: Amazingly, it didn't. 24 JERILYN PERINE: Right. 25 HOWARD HUSOCK: I think Geraldine is putting 1 us in -- 2 SENATOR YOUNG: It's Jerilyn. 3 HOWARD HUSOCK: Jerilyn. I'm sorry. 4 JERILYN PERINE: That's okay. You're not the 5 first. 6 [Laughter.] 7 JERILYN PERINE: Common mistake. 8 HOWARD HUSOCK: Jerilyn is putting us in an 9 incredibly constructive direction, you know, to -- 10 rather than thinking about, what are the novel 11 ways that we can write-down expensive costs, how 12 can we reduce costs at the outset? 13 Now, I would take that to be one of the -- 14 the implications of what you're saying; right? 15 JERILYN PERINE: Yeah, I mean, look, I'm a 16 big fan of subsidizing housing. And I think we 17 always are going to need that in this town, because 18 there's always going to be this gap between, what it 19 costs to deliver housing, and what people can afford 20 to pay. 21 But, I do think that we have to stop thinking 22 that everybody wants, or needs, a two- or 23 three-bedroom apartment for their nuclear family, 24 because that's, often not -- increasingly, that's 25 not just who we are. We're -- we're, that, but 1 we're a lot of other things, too. 2 You know, we're four single adults, with 3 masters's degrees, who want to pool their 4 resources, and -- you know, and share for a while. 5 We're, you know, low-wage workers who, you 6 know, can live in 80 square feet, if they can go 7 someplace for a decent meal, and live close to their 8 work, and save up money, and then move on. 9 You know, we're elderly people who don't just 10 want to retire to Florida anymore, who are looking 11 for -- 12 VICKI BEEN: Comradery? 13 JERILYN PERINE: -- different ways to live, 14 and don't need assisted living. You know, they -- 15 these are people -- not everybody needs to be, like, 16 with a social worker. 17 You know? 18 So, sometimes, people just want to live 19 together, in changing ways, and they don't -- you 20 know, it doesn't make them, like, mentally ill, you 21 know, because they don't want a three-bedroom house. 22 JUDY CALOGERO: But they might give up their 23 square footage in order to be closer to services 24 they need, like -- 25 JERILYN PERINE: But they might want to open 1 their house and, you know, rent rooms to people, 2 and have some help, and support -- 3 HOWARD HUSOCK: Well, so, lady in 4 St. Albans could start -- I mean, with the zoning, 5 I doubt the zoning code would allow her to start a 6 boarding house. 7 JERILYN PERINE: No, it would not. 8 And it wouldn't allow her to work with a 9 local not-for-profit to do it, either. 10 I mean, you know, there's -- I mean, I don't 11 think we're -- I'm not talking about, just sort of, 12 you know, unfettered, everybody goes crazy. 13 But -- right now, you couldn't actually do 14 those things, unless they were under a rubric of 15 supportive housing, or -- you know, something that 16 implied, like: You have a problem. 17 FRANK ANELANTE: But they do it now, by the 18 way. 19 JERILYN PERINE: But they're doing it, but 20 they're doing it legally. 21 FRANK ANELANTE: But there are people that do 22 (inaudible). I mean, there's hasps -- 23 JERILYN PERINE: Yeah. 24 FRANK ANELANTE: -- there's locks on bedroom 25 doors, and they rent out rooms. 1 JERILYN PERINE: And that's dangerous. 2 FRANK ANELANTE: There's one, I discovered 3 once, at the beginning of my career. I'll never 4 forget it: The 24-hour bed. 5 It was, a guy had an apartment. There were 6 beds all over the place. 7 HOWARD HUSOCK: Right. 8 FRANK ANELANTE: You would rent a mattress 9 for 8 hours. And then, after your 8 hours, you 10 got up, and someone came in. 11 I mean, the whole (inaudible), you know, 12 renting an apartment by the hour. 13 HOWARD HUSOCK: (Inaudible) like in the 14 1890s. 15 FRANK ANELANTE: And, I mean, we evicted the 16 guy, but, I mean, this happens all the time. 17 JERILYN PERINE: But we can do better than 18 that. You know, we could create alternatives that 19 would be legal, that would be safe, that would have 20 more choice. 21 That wouldn't solve every problem, would not, 22 I don't believe, take away the need for, 23 straight-up, subsidized housing. You know, I don't 24 think it does that, but, I think it would begin to 25 introduce more choice. 1 SENATOR YOUNG: So some of the barriers 2 you're identifying, for example, are local zoning 3 laws that the City controls? 4 And how would those have to be changed? 5 JERILYN PERINE: You know, very difficult. 6 There's a couple of things. 7 I mean, we're looking, now, to see if we can 8 do at least a pilot project, which we could do, 9 which would allow us to have a special little box, 10 and relief from the building code, not from zoning. 11 We would real actually have to try to 12 pre-negotiate, maybe, some waivers, and special 13 permits, that we could at least show what could be 14 done. 15 But, yeah, you're talking about changing 16 zoning. You're talking about changing the building 17 code, the multiple-dwelling law. You know, it's a 18 variety of things. 19 It's still (inaudible) happening in other 20 places. 21 SENATOR YOUNG: Is there a good case study? 22 Is there another city where this has been 23 done? 24 JERILYN PERINE: There's other places, 25 they've taken different tacts. 1 In Seattle, for example, they simply -- like, 2 in New York City, we've got a restriction against 3 more than three unrelated adults living together. 4 In Seattle, they had a similar regulatory 5 problem. They just changed that number to be a very 6 big number; like, 12, or something. I for -- you 7 know, 9, or 12. 8 So I just -- but, you know, that one thing 9 that kind of opened the door to a variety of 10 choices. 11 In California, their occupancy requirements 12 that dealt with people's relationships, as a family, 13 were, basically, overturned as being 14 unconstitutional for their state constitution. 15 So, that sort of went a different way. It 16 was, like, one fell swoop. It kind of wiped away 17 any local ordinances that would -- that would do 18 that. 19 So I think, you know, different places have 20 kind of approached different things. 21 We're -- we're kind of working, you know, 22 pretty collaboratively with the City. So, I mean, 23 we're not trying to kind of challenge this in the 24 courts, or -- you know, we're trying to persuade 25 people, that, you know, changing, and putting more 1 choice, is not scary. But, people already living in 2 communities, who they may be afraid of, but they're 3 already there, and they're living in situations that 4 aren't very good. 5 And, we can improve on them. 6 I'm hoping that, maybe, by doing a pilot, I 7 do think the complexity, actually, I think is 8 zoning. I mean, I don't -- I think that's, in a lot 9 of ways, the hardest thing. (Inaudible) the 10 barrier. 11 JUDY CALOGERO: And in all fairness to the 12 City, there has been -- I think, in the last 13 ten years, there's been a lot of, I'll call it 14 "creative rezoning." 15 But, it's been difficult. 16 I mean, there's been a lot of rezoning that's 17 done, but it hasn't necessarily addressed the issues 18 that we're talking about here, but it has brought 19 about some meaningful change in certain key 20 neighborhoods. And those -- those rezonings have 21 been difficult. I mean, they're -- 22 JERILYN PERINE: Yeah, but it's not been 23 enough. I mean, this has really been Vicki's 24 (inaudible) -- 25 VICKI BEEN: And, I mean, we've studied the 1 rezonings. 2 But, you know, one of the issues is, just 3 creating options, like, mother-in-law apartments, 4 or, you know that kind of thing. And many cities 5 are doing that. 6 But, a lot of the City's recent -- 7 Excuse me. Got a frog in my throat. 8 FRANK ANELANTE: Want some water? 9 VICKI BEEN: No, I'm okay. 10 A lot of, you know, the City's recent 11 rezonings are downzonings (inaudible), the sort 12 of, single-, two-, three-family areas -- 13 (Handed a glass of water.) 14 VICKI BEEN: Oh, thank you. 15 FRANK ANELANTE: You're welcome. 16 VICKI BEEN: -- that -- you know, where we 17 could put mother-in-law apartments, or those kinds 18 of things. 19 So, you know... 20 FRANK ANELANTE: And I know Jerilyn 21 (inaudible) started an SRL. I mean, SRLs are 22 desperately needed. And I think that would 23 finish -- 24 JERILYN PERINE: Or going to SLR alternative; 25 again, I mean, I think we're looking at a 1 twenty-first-century solution. You know, we're not 2 looking to replicate the bad housing models of the 3 past. 4 And I think that was -- 5 Where's Teresa? 6 So, Teresa came to our event, last Monday, at 7 the Japan Society, where we had -- we worked with 8 the architecturally. We had, like, five teams of 9 architects, to put forward ideas that would, 10 hopefully, get people to feel like this is not so 11 scary. "I can think of people in my life who might 12 be happy living in such situations." 13 And they tackled everything, from the small 14 house in Queens, to the old industrial building in 15 Astoria, to begin reshaping the 1970s office 16 building and allowing more mixed use. 17 Now, most of these things actually did -- 18 most of these designs challenged zoning more than 19 anything else. 20 I mean, zoning and -- 21 VICKI BEEN: Parking regulations. 22 JERILYN PERINE: -- and parking. That's 23 right. 24 VICKI BEEN: Parking is a huge -- 25 JERILYN PERINE: Is a huge thing. But -- 1 SENATOR YOUNG: In what way? 2 VICKI BEEN: Because, the City zoning often 3 requires minimum parking -- minimum off-street 4 parking. And that just limits what it is that 5 developers can build. 6 If they have to provide a certain amount of 7 parking space, it raises their costs, it limits 8 their flexibility on a lot. It causes people to 9 divide lots in, basically, inefficient ways. 10 So -- 11 JUDY CALOGERO: And if you're more -- I mean, 12 people -- I mean, I think the (inaudible) has been 13 smart growth and transit, or the development. 14 And, in New York City, most of what we do is 15 transit-oriented development. 16 And if you're near a good transportation hub, 17 that there is no need to be requiring any parking, 18 in my opinion, but, getting people over that is very 19 difficult. 20 SENATOR YOUNG: I mean, it's a choice; right? 21 If somebody wants parking, they can find a 22 site that has parking. But, it's just different 23 choices. 24 VICKI BEEN: Right, yes. Right. 25 HOWARD HUSOCK: Are all of these within the 1 purview only of the City? 2 But I'm -- you know, I'm aware of the fact 3 that we have a State Senator here. 4 Is there anything the State can do to 5 enable -- would a building-code change ultimately 6 have to go to the State? 7 JERILYN PERINE: I don't think so. 8 HOWARD - BACK ROW: The building code now, I 9 mean, although there are restrictions, both, the 10 housing maintenance code and the New York City 11 building code are, basically, authorized by the 12 New York State Multiple Dwelling Law. 13 And there are things you could do in the 14 New York State Multiple Dwelling Law which could 15 give the City more room to maneuver. 16 For instance: Right now, the New York State 17 Multiple Dwelling Law says, that, local 18 jurisdictions -- I mean, a local jurisdiction that 19 comes under it is New York City -- are free to 20 pass laws that are more restrictive than the 21 building code. 22 They're not free to pass laws that are less 23 restrictive than the Multiple Dwelling Law. 24 HOWARD HUSOCK: That sounds really important. 25 HOWARD - BACK ROW: So, I mean, not that 1 anybody -- not that people, other than the fact that 2 the issues that Jerilyn and Vicki and Judy are 3 raising, not that -- since those issues haven't 4 really been raised that much before, you know, there 5 hasn't been an outcry to allow people to do things 6 that are, you know, less restrictive than the 7 Multiple Dwelling Law. 8 But that might -- but, you need to look at 9 the Multiple Dwelling Law, to start opening the 10 doors to making changes in the building code, 11 and the housing maintenance code, that would go in 12 that direction. 13 And they'll, actually, kind of have a strange 14 little example of this; and that example is, of 15 course, the "loft" law, which was designed to 16 legalize otherwise illegal units in places that they 17 weren't legal to be in, and the configurations that 18 didn't need any existing code. And, in fact, you 19 did it in the Multiple Dwelling Law. 20 HOWARD HUSOCK: At the state level? 21 HOWARD - BACK ROW: At the state level. 22 Basically, what you did, in that law, was, 23 you cut the Gordian Knot of all the complexities of 24 zoning, building codes, et cetera, and just said: 25 Okay, we can pass a state law, that, for this kind 1 of (inaudible) buildings, wipes all that away. 2 And we did that in the "loft" law. 3 Now, whether or not that would work on a 4 broader scale, is questionable, but it's just kind 5 of a little example, indicating what's possible at 6 the State level. 7 SENATOR YOUNG: So, the State did it for the 8 "loft" law. 9 Is there another category that you could look 10 at, similar to lofts, where you could apply this? 11 Because, as you said, I think a broad-based 12 approach might be very difficult to do. 13 But, are there categories of buildings, or 14 living arrangements, that we could look at? 15 JERILYN PERINE: Yes. And we sort of 16 challenged the architectural teams to kind of look 17 at three things: 18 A mini studio: something less than the 19 450-square-foot minimum that's required now in 20 New York City; 21 We asked them to look at a model for single 22 adults sharing; 23 And also asked them to look at the adaptation 24 of, essentially, a one-family house, to provide for 25 an accessory unit. Additional family member, you 1 know, whatever that might be. 2 A couple went, you know, further, and, like, 3 you know, sort of, like, the reshaping of the 4 1970s office building, which was, in some ways, 5 my favorite. 6 But -- so, we are taking those designs, and 7 with our, sort of, technical team, looking at each, 8 and figuring out, well, exactly, which laws are 9 being broken here, you know. And, can we come up 10 with, for each of these three types, a potential 11 pilot that could carve out a real-built example. 12 That would mean, we would have to be 13 challenging less on the zoning side, and more on the 14 building-code side, but -- and see if we can get 15 them built. 16 But I think the analysis will answer that 17 question, of, sort of: Where are the two or three 18 keys that need to be turned? 19 JUDY CALOGERO: And if you were to go to 20 finance that, which I think would be intriguing to 21 do, even if it was just on some type of 22 demonstration model, but, if you were going to go to 23 the State and finance that, you wouldn't be able to 24 currently do that, because of the regulatory -- 25 they're not legislative -- but the regulatory 1 restrictions that are in place, as it relates to 2 design standards; and, in particular, unit size. 3 And, also, storage standards, and things like that. 4 And, so, if you could get HCR to put together 5 some type of demonstration finance program to go 6 along with the model Jerilyn recommends, I think 7 that you'd be able to implement a unique and an 8 interesting study that you could do, to see the 9 impact of that. 10 And that would -- that financing wouldn't 11 need to be all of the financing for it, but it would 12 be the piece that would help to maintain part of its 13 affordability. I think that the unit size itself 14 will help to do that as well. But, still, that 15 subsidization, I think, would be necessary. 16 VICKI BEEN: Another thing that the State -- 17 many states have preempted, is the family 18 ordinances. And they -- states typically preempt 19 them for supportive housing, for group homes, and 20 that kind of thing. 21 But some states, you know, preempt them 22 altogether, so that the city can't specify that a 23 family can only be three, or a household can only be 24 three. 25 So that's another area that -- 1 JUDY CALOGERO: Other cities in the state do 2 that. I know Albany does it. 3 And I think that it's been -- it was -- well, 4 it was seen more in Albany as an anti-student 5 housing. There were so many colleges there, to try 6 to preclude grouping of students. And -- and they 7 don't want to discourage colleges from building 8 dormitories for that type of -- that purpose. 9 But, I think Albany is another city that has 10 that. 11 HOWARD HUSOCK: Is it imaginable for 12 two young single mothers to share premises? 13 Would that be illegal, under family 14 arrangements, as things stand now? 15 JERILYN PERINE: It would really depend. 16 I think it probably wouldn't be illegal, from 17 the -- no more than three unrelated adults. Or, 18 possibly, you'd be okay with that, maybe. 19 But where you probably wouldn't be okay, 20 would be strictly on the occupancy per room. 21 You know, you get into a lot of complexity. 22 Now, normally, the City would never enforce 23 just that aspect of the occupancy rules. 24 Right? 25 Like, they're not going to come knock on your 1 door, and see if you actually put your three kids in 2 one bedroom, or not. 3 I mean, you know, that's -- they're not going 4 to do that, but, there's rules that would make 5 that -- that would actually prohibit that. 6 So, if you really -- you know, what we're 7 saying is, let the stuff be out in the light of day. 8 I mean, like, why would this be so terrible? 9 Like, why can't we just try to think about 10 how to make that easier for people to do, rather 11 than think about rules for them to sneak around 12 the regulations. 13 And put the regulators, by the way, who 14 tend to be, like, the code inspectors on the 15 ground, or -- you know, in this horrible situation, 16 of having to make these judgments about people and 17 their lives. 18 And, so, if we could bring more of these 19 models out, into having the developers talk 20 about it, the architects, the housing, you know, 21 let people discuss them. 22 HOWARD - BACK ROW: Well, (inaudible), I 23 mean, like those two families -- two female-headed 24 families, with a couple of children -- 25 HOWARD HUSOCK: Yep. 1 HOWARD - BACK ROW: -- might well likely -- 2 and this is probably beyond the scope of our 3 conversation -- might well likely be 4 Section 8-eligible. Section 8, even to pair up 5 (inaudible) for that apartment. And, of course, the 6 Feds wouldn't allow that. 7 JERILYN PERINE: They couldn't get it. 8 (Inaudible discussion.) 9 FRANK ANELANTE: And they couldn't that. 10 And that gets to another point -- 11 (Inaudible discussion.) 12 FRANK ANELANTE: But, since all housing is 13 local, and we didn't even talk about Upstate, I 14 believe in block granting. I don't believe HUD 15 should exist, other than to make certain -- 16 you know, maybe oversee. Just give the states and 17 localities, which have good housing agencies, the 18 money, and let them figure it out, because, the more 19 rules there are, the harder it is to develop 20 affordable housing. 21 JUDY CALOGERO: I do want to raise one point, 22 though, that you -- on one hand, you -- I think that 23 you would disagree with me on: The federal 24 government, the Section 42 of the tax code, is what 25 creates the low-income housing and tax-credit 1 program, and it's used throughout the state. 2 And the code requires that there be a 3 market study done, to demonstrate, in part, need, 4 but demand also. 5 In a New York City -- the state allows 6 New York City projects to bypass that, because the 7 assumption is, there's been so many studies done. 8 You look at the RGB -- the Rent Guidelines 9 Board; you look at studies that HPD has done; you 10 look at the Furman Center reports; and it all 11 clearly demonstrates that there is high demand. I 12 don't think that people doubt that. 13 But, in other parts of the state, a market 14 study needs to be done, to help to demonstrate that. 15 But what that market study does, is, in those 16 projects, it helps to determine what the income 17 bands are that are really needed, so that that 18 project can be targeted to where those specific 19 needs are. 20 In New York City, we don't do that. And it's 21 almost a disadvantage that we don't know a little 22 bit more about those specific income bands. 23 So, we when you talk to me about, is the need 24 at 60 percent of AMI, for families of two and three? 25 Or is it -- is that 72 percent of AMI? 1 In New York City, I don't have a market 2 study. I may not know that -- the reports that I 3 have may not get me (inaudible) down to that level 4 of specificity. But, if I'm outside of New York 5 City, I can tell you that, because I can point to 6 any number of market studies. 7 It is a requirement -- 8 FRANK ANELANTE: I know, but in 9 New York City, I don't know how much of a 10 requirement you need, because we -- if we have good 11 apartments, we'll rent them to people that need 12 them. 13 I mean -- 14 JUDY CALOGERO: But what you don't -- 15 FRANK ANELANTE: (Inaudible.) 16 JUDY CALOGERO: -- but you wouldn't -- right. 17 But what you don't know, is: Is there a need 18 for HCR to expand their income bands? 19 Do we need to go beyond 80 percent of AMI? 20 Do we need to be -- go beyond 60 percent of 21 AMI? 22 FRANK ANELANTE: I think the worst -- 23 JUDY CALOGERO: What is the real -- 24 FRANK ANELANTE: -- in fact, there's two 25 points. 1 I think one, is, that I think the only 2 housing that really, truly works in affordable 3 housing, is mixed-use housing. 4 I think the fact that, say, the Bronx, has 5 more -- you know, that more of these huge 6 developments, these NYCHA developments, it's 7 horrible. 8 I mean, mixed-use is the best. I mean, our 9 model is now, more, 70/30, or something like that. 10 Or, you know, 60/40, or -- whatever, and get them 11 mixed. We find that it's just a more sustainable 12 model, going forward. 13 JUDY CALOGERO: And I'll even go one further. 14 I worked in a project up in the Bronx, that 15 NYCHA's working on. It's with a private developer. 16 And, a percentage of the units would be public 17 housing within a privately owned development. 18 FRANK ANELANTE: And that's good. 19 JUDY CALOGERO: Then there will be a wide 20 range of income bands. 21 FRANK ANELANTE: And that's great. 22 JUDY CALOGERO: And I think that that's the 23 way to go. 24 HOWARD HUSOCK: I have an Upstate question. 25 I mean, our Senator, and host, is from 1 Upstate. 2 I -- to me, I think the analogue to what 3 Jerilyn was suggesting, for, you know, adjusting 4 expectations about what housing should be, would be 5 something that is not probably from in Baltimore, 6 which name I'm forgetting right now, but they used 7 the term "minimal rehab codes." 8 All right? 9 So, what -- you've got so much abandoned and 10 underutilized housing, in Buffalo, in Utica, it's 11 really quite extraordinary. And I don't think 12 people in the city are aware of the devastation 13 Upstate. 14 And, so, the question, then, is: Well, what 15 do you really need to make that unit habitable? 16 You know, what's the minimum you need, so 17 that you don't offend the sensibilities, and make 18 it, really, too horrible a place to live? 19 And I think that's a question that Upstate 20 cities may want to look at, because, Buffalo is 21 actually in the market for the same young singles 22 that New York -- they're interested in trying to 23 become an artsy place. But you're not going to be 24 able to do that if you have to subsidize to the 25 highest levels -- I mean, to renovate to the 1 highest levels. 2 VICKI BEEN: Well, New Jersey has 3 experimented with that. 4 HOWARD HUSOCK: And that's right. That's 5 right. 6 VICKI BEEN: And that would be something to 7 look at. I mean, New Jersey has a rehab code that 8 is different than its building code, you know, that 9 it -- 10 JUDY CALOGERO: We did a -- 11 VICKI BEEN: -- (inaudible) standard. 12 JUDY CALOGERO: -- I did a project in 13 Buffalo, in downtown Buffalo, that tried to attract 14 that very population. And, it was an old factory 15 building that was renovated, and it was 16 minimalistic, but in, somewhat, an attractive way. 17 And, at the end of the day, they actually 18 poured these rubber floors in it. It was 19 fascinating, and, it was not that expensive to do. 20 It was a mixed-income grouping. 21 And the thing that attracted young people, 22 was, they put flat-screened TVs in them; panel TVs 23 on the wall. And everything else was minor. And, 24 it attracted, you know, a huge waiting list. 25 SENATOR YOUNG: So, it was a success? 1 JUDY CALOGERO: It was a success. And it was 2 done with state funds, and it was a minimalistic 3 approach. 4 HOWARD HUSOCK: I forgot about the New Jersey 5 code. That's important. 6 FRANK ANELANTE: Some of our most successful 7 rehabs are when we first started out in the 8 '70s. Moderate rehabs with tenants in 9 occupancy. 10 We'd take an old building. You wouldn't 11 change the layouts. There were no -- we didn't 12 have the ADA codes to go by. 13 We would -- uhm, we would really do 14 systems. You know, the plumbing, the heating, 15 roof, windows. It evolved more, later on, into, 16 say, new kitchens and bathrooms. 17 But, you'd give people a decent place to 18 live. And it was not a palace, but it was a 19 wonderful, solid housing. 20 And that housing is viable even today. 21 In fact, stuff we've done in the '70s, 22 we're re-rehabilitating now. But, it was more 23 minimalistic, and it worked. 24 JUDY CALOGERO: And I think if you look at 25 some of the provisions for lofts in New York City, 1 and allowed for that in some of the cities, like 2 Utica and Buffalo, it could be, not only attractive, 3 but less of a burden on the infrastructure, and less 4 pressure on the suburbs and rural parts of the 5 state. 6 We've got to stop losing, you know, farmland. 7 We've got to stop doing five-acre, you know, zoning; 8 one house per five-acre zone. 9 We've got to do more to encourage people to 10 live in the areas where there is existing 11 infrastructure: hamlet, cities, whatever it is, a 12 town. 13 And I think that that can be very beneficial. 14 HOWARD - BACK ROW: I would just caution, 15 before we run off to emulate the "loft" law, it has 16 a lot of its own problems. 17 JERILYN PERINE: Right, of course. 18 Right. 19 HOWARD - BACK ROW: So, it's only -- 20 JERILYN PERINE: (Inaudible) problems. 21 HOWARD - BACK ROW: -- a suggestion, 22 (inaudible) emulate it. 23 SENATOR YOUNG: Well, what would you -- what 24 are the problems that you see -- 25 HOWARD - BACK ROW: Well, the way it was 1 created, it has this complex administrative process, 2 with a board that basically rules on each and 3 every transition -- legalization. And there's a 4 very hand-crafted process, for each set of plans. 5 An adversary proceeding in which it can get 6 challenged. 7 And this is, basically, been going on for, 8 basically, 30 years now, and it's not quite yet 9 complete for the properties that were designated in 10 1980-whatever. 11 (Inaudible discussion.) 12 JUDY CALOGERO: But the notion of adaptive 13 reuse of a building, I think -- 14 HOWARD - BACK ROW: Yes, that's fine. 15 JUDY CALOGERO: -- is -- it is practical. 16 HOWARD HUSOCK: Well, it would be, as of 17 right use, somehow. 18 HOWARD - BACK ROW: And I just, for those not 19 familiar with the "loft" law, I just didn't want 20 to -- well, I just wanted to make sure that it was 21 clear, we weren't -- 22 (Inaudible discussion.) 23 SENATOR YOUNG: We're familiar with that. 24 But, administratively, it's a nightmare. 25 HOWARD - BACK ROW: Exactly. 1 VICKI BEEN: Yeah. 2 SENATOR YOUNG: It's too much of take. 3 VICKI BEEN: Yeah, but much of the housing 4 that we would need to be using a different kind of 5 rehab, would be the foreclosed stock. 6 HOWARD HUSOCK: That's a great idea. 7 (Inaudible discussion.) 8 VICKI BEEN: Right. 9 I mean, some of it is the bigger, but a lot 10 of it would be the REO stock, or the foreclosed 11 stock. 12 JUDY CALOGERO: But you've got to have a 13 population. 14 I mean, I'm from Utica. But, you know, the 15 population in the city of Utica has gone, from 16 100,000, down to 55,000. 17 VICKI BEEN: Right. 18 JUDY CALOGERO: And, so, you know, there's 19 got to be people there that are going to rent. Or, 20 that their jobs are there, and they're going to come 21 there. 22 JERILYN PERINE: Again, you know, there are 23 examples of cities, right, which have the same 24 sort of shrinking-city phenomenon, right; the job 25 goes away, and the people shrink, and then all kinds 1 of bad things begin to happen. -- who have, 2 actually, I mean, have done a good job at kind of 3 reshaping themselves. 4 I mean, in -- you know, Pittsburgh, is a good 5 example, I think, of that, and, yeah, did the good 6 steel jobs. 7 Are they the same as if you're working an 8 admin job at the university? Maybe not exactly, no. 9 But -- you know, but they sort of realigned 10 themselves into a different place. 11 There are certainly international examples 12 of this. You know, places like Liverpool, 13 Manchester, you know, lost so much population -- 14 essentially, their jobs -- were left with an 15 infrastructure that was well larger than their -- 16 you know, than their population. And, they've kind 17 of reshaped who they are. 18 In some places, like in [unintelligible], 19 they'd really kind of thrown out the book of what 20 you can do inside residential buildings. And 21 just, kind of, eliminated ideas about: This is a 22 residential building, so only people could live 23 here. 24 Well, you can do other things inside 25 buildings. You could, you know, have this -- 1 HOWARD HUSOCK: (Inaudible.) 2 JERILYN PERINE: -- you -- 3 Well, but you could also have small opera 4 companies. Or, they could do all kind of things 5 inside walk-up multiple dwellings in cities in the 6 former GDR. 7 And I think, if we could get away from, both, 8 some of -- you know, create more flexibility for, 9 like a rehab code in New Jersey, that set off a wave 10 of rehabilitation work. 11 But if we also could get away from use 12 restrictions. I mean, I think, you know, when 13 Frank talked about mixed-use, he really meant 14 mixed-income. 15 FRANK ANELANTE: That's right. 16 JERILYN PERINE: I think we actually have to 17 also think about uses not being so constrained in 18 places, like Utica. I mean -- and if you -- 19 JUDY CALOGERO: If you want to bring life 20 back to your downtown areas, you need to have people 21 walking around there; right? 22 You need people living there, not just 23 working there. You can't well have -- you can't 24 have everyone leave at 5:00. 25 If you want people to go to the 1 restaurants, to go to the theater, you've got to 2 have some people living there. 3 And I think, that if you take this idea 4 farther, and allow, second-, third-story spaces 5 above store fronts to be renovated for this 6 purpose, it could be very, very useful. 7 I think that there's a small part of the 8 state, where I lived, Saratoga and the Glens Falls 9 area, where there's a lot of this going on. 10 And, quite honestly, some of it has come from 11 encouragement from the housing and community 12 renewals. 13 Main Street program, which had a provision, 14 that you could use some of the money to create 15 apartment space above stores. 16 SENATOR YOUNG: That's why we did Pro 21-M 17 this year -- 18 JUDY CALOGERO: Okay. 19 SENATOR YOUNG: -- because it's a way to 20 revitalize downtowns. 21 You look at -- 22 What is it, Laurie (ph.), 50 percent? 23 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yeah. 24 SENATOR YOUNG: -- has to be affordable 25 housing. 1 But, we had a model project in Mount Morris, 2 which is near Geneseo, near Rochester, in 3 Livingston County, and they're actually able to 4 totally restore the downtown. A developer did that. 5 And the housing now is above. It's very nice 6 housing. But, you know, small businesses are moving 7 back into those downtown areas. And, it's really 8 been -- it really has been a great success. 9 But, you have to try to find ways to leverage 10 private-sector investment so that those types of 11 things occur. 12 And, so, this is just another tool in the 13 toolbox, but it's something that we're hoping could 14 spread across the state; because, you look at the 15 downtowns, and you're absolutely right, that, we 16 need to have kind of a captive audience that lives 17 down there to support the small businesses, with the 18 advent of Wal-Mart and some of the Big-Box stores. 19 If we don't have that, then that's one of the 20 main reasons why downtowns are deserted now. 21 JERILYN PERINE: And you also can think 22 about -- like, Judy's really the state expert, you 23 know, certainly not me -- but I spend time in 24 Delaware County, which is shocking. 25 I mean, you could travel around India, and 1 use your cell phone. You can't travel around 2 Delaware County and have cell phone service. 3 You can (inaudible) your cell phones in 4 Delaware County. I mean, it's -- it's kind of 5 shocking. 6 And, so, this is, 2 1/2, 3 hours from 7 New York City. It could have an explosion of 8 entrepreneurial businesses; people who want to live 9 in a big old house, and run their business from 10 their house. But, you can't get it if you don't 11 have a cell phone, you don't have -- 12 (Inaudible discussion.) 13 JERILYN PERINE: -- computer service, and no 14 cell phone service. 15 JUDY CALOGERO: But -- 16 JERILYN PERINE: You know -- 17 JUDY CALOGERO: But, you know, the 18 Adirondack Park has been trying, for years, to get 19 the Federal Administration to help with bringing 20 broadband to the Adirondacks. And I think they've 21 submitted applications three or four times, and, 22 every time, they get shot down. 23 JERILYN PERINE: But even outside -- I mean, 24 just, again, this is not even the Adirondacks. 25 It's, like -- it's, like, we could get in a car 1 right now, we could be there in two hours, and your 2 cell phone won't work. 3 JUDY CALOGERO: Yeah. 4 JERILYN PERINE: So, it's sort of, like -- 5 it's hard for me to understand how the third world 6 has skipped over the infrastructure of cables 7 built in the ground, and they are huge users of -- 8 HOWARD HUSOCK: Now we're talking about 9 public utility regulations. 10 (Inaudible discussion.) 11 JERILYN PERINE: Okay, but -- but, you know, 12 what? But it relates to housing. It relates to 13 jobs. I mean, it relates to all these things, 14 because you create this desert, 2 1/2 hours away 15 from here. 16 JUDY CALOGERO: Well -- but -- and, just, you 17 know, when you said, Delaware County, what comes to 18 mind right now, also, is, that there are -- there 19 were 17 counties in the state that were devastated 20 by the floods. And I don't know that people fully 21 appreciate what happened. 22 There are communities that are gone. 23 JERILYN PERINE: Yeah, and Delaware's one. 24 Yeah. 25 JUDY CALOGERO: And there are some in 1 Delaware that are just -- there's communities that 2 are gone, because of that. 3 And, so, you have that; there's been people 4 who have been permanently displaced. 5 HOWARD HUSOCK: Judy's discussion of the 6 Buffalo building with the rubber floors -- 7 Not be confused with rubber rooms; right? 8 [Laughter.] 9 HOWARD HUSOCK: -- you know, reminds us, and 10 it echos, you know, Frank's point about block 11 grants. 12 There's, really, a kind of a "one size fits 13 all" mentality of the federal housing programs. 14 And low-income-housing tax credit is a good example. 15 So, why do you really want to build more 16 rental complexes in places where you have a surplus 17 of used housing? 18 The new is actually going to compete with 19 that existing housing, and you're going to be 20 chasing your tail, in terms of the quality of that 21 housing, because it's only going to get undermined 22 by that subsidized competition. 23 And, so, one could imagine, you know, with 24 the democratic Governor, and, you know, Sean Donovan 25 at HUD, let's try to get waivers, to allow 1 different kinds of uses for this stream of federal 2 money, whether it's community-development block 3 grants, Section 8, low-income-housing tax credit, so 4 that it's more appropriate for local needs. 5 And the example I like to promote, is 6 Atlanta, where, Renee Glover, who was, I think, you 7 know, probably the most admired public housing 8 director in the country, got a waiver. She -- they 9 did a block grant with Section 8 money there. And 10 she, among other things, attached a work requirement 11 to Section 8. 12 Well, we can have the long discussion about 13 whether that's a good idea or not, but, it worked in 14 Atlanta. They brought (inaudible) participation up, 15 from 17 percent, to, pre-recession, 80 percent. 16 Still at 60 percent. 17 That's a big, big change in the Section 8 18 world. 19 And, on the federal level, but my larger 20 point here, is, try to make the programs that we are 21 going to spend money on more aligned with the actual 22 local needs, rather than undermining and destroying 23 local housing markets. 24 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 25 JUDY CALOGERO: I would agree. 1 And I think that there are some policies that 2 are in place, that the state has. And I think, HPD, 3 to some degree too. But they -- that you can't -- 4 that if you -- I think there's close attention paid 5 to occupancy levels at elder subsidized housing, 6 in particular, before something new, or -- and/or 7 renovated is fund -- government funds are used to do 8 that. 9 And, maybe -- look, there's always local 10 pressure, and political pressure, to not always 11 follow those standards, but there are policies in 12 place to prevent that very thing from happening. 13 I think, that, you have to be constantly 14 judicious to implement that. It's a tough thing. 15 HOWARD HUSOCK: Well, I will go even further, 16 and now I'll get into housing heresy territory; 17 right? 18 So -- so, for instance, in Buffalo -- but 19 this is true in the Lower East Side by the 20 Brooklyn Waterfront, too -- you have large public 21 housing projects which -- uhm, let's say they're 22 fully occupied, just to throw that out, so they 23 wouldn't necessarily be competing with -- but, 24 they're sitting on land which is not being put to 25 its highest and best use. 1 And, so, you have some of the best 2 real estate in Buffalo, on Lake Erie, is an old and 3 dilapidated public housing project. 4 Now, could you imagine building replacement 5 housing so that you feed that housing up? 6 Could you imagine, somehow, freeing up the 7 housing in the Ingersol Raymond (ph.), which is my 8 favorite, uhm -- you know, the -- Brooklyn is just 9 booming, and the Brooklyn Waterfront is booming. 10 And then you have this dead zone there, 11 unchanging forever, one of the largest public 12 housing projects in the city. 13 Do we now want to say that that will never be 14 put to any different use? 15 Can we not find another way to re-purpose 16 that land? 17 Is it always to be off the table? 18 I understand it's complicated, but I think it 19 is worth considering. 20 JUDY CALOGERO: I think that the real problem 21 there, is HUD, and their one-for-one replacement 22 wall. And they implement that, both, urban and 23 non-urban areas. And I think it's misguided. 24 And I've personally attempted to demonstrate 25 that. 1 There is a project in Niagara Falls, where, 2 there had been 200 units. But -- whereas, it was 3 all -- it was completely. It was sitting there. 4 And, in order to take advantage of the HAP 5 agreement that had been -- that was still existing 6 on that project, for a new development that was 7 right sized for the community, 70 units, instead 8 of 200, HUD wouldn't participate, and they removed 9 their HAP agreement because they wanted one-for-one 10 replacement. 11 And the market study that was done 12 demonstrated there wasn't demand for 200 units. 13 But they had to have -- 14 JERILYN PERINE: And I think that's a big 15 Upstate-Downstate difference, though, too; right? 16 I mean, because the demand for public housing 17 in New York City is huge. So, you know, consider -- 18 JUDY CALOGERO: It's just not right. 19 JERILYN PERINE: So, you know, that's 20 different. 21 And I actually think that the 22 Housing Authority has actually made a lot of 23 in-roads to this, and has actually been -- they've 24 looked at all of their properties. They know how 25 much, sort of, F -- buildable FAR they leave on the 1 table. They're redeveloping sites. 2 They're doing them in Chelsea -- 3 (Inaudible discussion). 4 FRANK ANELANTE: (Inaudible.) There was an 5 RFP that was put up, jointly, between NYCHA and HPD. 6 And I think it was about two years ago. 7 We applied for a few sites, got 8 Sound View (ph.), and, the financing was tough, 9 which is just a whole nother issue. 10 JERILYN PERINE: Right. 11 FRANK ANELANTE: But, (inaudible) developer 12 on NYCHA land, and the other RFP, you know, the 13 other respondents, other people got other ones. 14 And, we are going to do some of the -- use 15 some of that excess FAR, and do mixed-income 16 projects. 17 JUDY CALOGERO: The point is, is that it's 18 not a "one size fits all" type of thing. 19 FRANK ANELANTE: Right. Exactly. 20 JUDY CALOGERO: You need to know what the 21 specific needs are in your community. And that's 22 where block granting works better -- 23 FRANK ANELANTE: It really does. 24 It really does. 25 JUDY CALOGERO: -- in all aspect of 1 programming. 2 JERILYN PERINE: Right. 3 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. 4 FRANK ANELANTE: And HUD could do oversight, 5 but -- you know, but they don't have to dictate the 6 programs; because, as developers, we have to 7 tailor what we develop, to what program we can get 8 funded through. 9 You know? 10 HOWARD HUSOCK: As opposed to what the demand 11 is actually for. 12 FRANK ANELANTE: Exactly. 13 JUDY CALOGERO: So, I think one of issues, 14 and I think you'll hear this repeatedly, because, as 15 a housing advocate for many years, we've come to the 16 members of the Legislature, including yourself, in 17 the past, and said: Help us with Washington. Help 18 us get to the members of Congress, to help make 19 this an issue; because, there's only so much we can 20 do in the state. So much of the resources, so much 21 of the control, comes from HUD. 22 And if we could get, yourself, and 23 Assemblyman Lopez, to use your positions as a little 24 bit of a bully pulpit on some of this, I think that, 25 if we help to come up with some policies for you, I 1 think it could be very effective. 2 SENATOR YOUNG: Have you talked to the 3 Governor or HCR about this? -- because, obviously, 4 we would need their support in order to -- 5 JUDY CALOGERO: To do it. 6 SENATOR YOUNG: -- you know, begin to work on 7 that. 8 JUDY CALOGERO: Yes. 9 SENATOR YOUNG: So, you need to determine 10 where they're at -- 11 JUDY CALOGERO: Yes. 12 SENATOR YOUNG: -- I suppose, first. 13 JUDY CALOGERO: Yep, I agree. 14 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. 15 So, that -- I agree with the block granting 16 too. I think it, just -- you know, we need to 17 tailor programs so that they actually meet the 18 market needs. 19 So, I don't think that happens, as you're 20 pointing out, all the time. 21 HOWARD HUSOCK: I think if, Andrew Cuomo, as 22 a former HUD Secretary, approached Sean Donovan, and 23 said: Can we get a waiver? 24 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. 25 FRANK ANELANTE: Hey, the pilot program, we 1 could show them one could work. 2 HOWARD HUSOCK: For some portion. 3 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. That's good idea. 4 VICKI BEEN: But back to the things the State 5 has control over -- 6 SENATOR YOUNG: Yes. I know, because -- 7 (Inaudible discussion.) 8 VICKI BEEN: -- one thing that I would 9 suggest, bears -- and I don't have specific 10 proposals, but, I think bears some more scrutiny, 11 is the whole environmental-impact review process, 12 and the cost that that's imposing. 13 And I am a proponent of environmental-impact 14 review. I just think that it's done terribly badly 15 at the present time, because, by the time you get an 16 environmental-impact review, that's cost you a 17 bazillion dollars -- it's cost the developer a 18 gazillion dollars, it's really too late. 19 And, so, it's a document that sits on 20 shelf, rather than really helping to reframe the 21 project. 22 And, so, you know, I think that that's one 23 area where there are big costs, potentially big 24 benefits, but I think a mismatch of the cost and 25 benefits at that present time. 1 SENATOR YOUNG: Absolutely. 2 Does anyone have any ideas on how to change 3 that? 4 JUDY CALOGERO: Well, DHCR is asking for them 5 early. And they're accepting them, as long as 6 they've been done within the year of when you're 7 applying for financing. 8 And, so, in those instances, it is known what 9 the impact is -- well, let me say it differently: 10 You're more likely to get funded if you've done it. 11 It's not an absolute requirement. 12 So, Vicki's right. 13 But, to show readiness, and to show your 14 knowledge of the site, and to show that you do have 15 an appropriate plan for that site, an EAS is 16 required as part of the application. 17 So -- but, it's not -- that's -- that's just 18 one housing agency. It's -- I'm not sure how it's 19 treated by HPD or HTC. 20 It may be treated differently. 21 FRANK ANELANTE: I mean, it's less of a 22 problem here in the city. I mean, it's more 23 pro forma. But, like, for Upstate, I would think, 24 if the agency wanted to have a certain area 25 developed, they could do it, and they could say: 1 This is what we feel. 2 And leave it with the developer. You know, 3 be more proactive: We want this area developed. 4 And, so, you know: Here, we'll do this. 5 We'll determine, you know, what it is. 6 And then have developers go develop it. 7 You can always find a developer that's willing to 8 develop. 9 JUDY CALOGERO: There's not a lot of 10 comprehensive planning going on in communities in 11 Upstate. 12 And, in one of the areas that I think the 13 2 percent tax cap is affecting, is, I've seen that 14 some of the planning departments that are 15 (inaudible) there are being downsized, because it's 16 whatever the governments can get rid of, to stay 17 within the tax cap, they're gonna to do things that 18 are not regulated, or required, or mandated. 19 And, so, planning is not one of them, so 20 you're going to see, I think, planning negatively 21 impacted by the tax cap. 22 FRANK ANELANTE: That's a shame. 23 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. 24 Okay. 25 HOWARD HUSOCK: You know, Jerilyn mentioned 1 my reference to rent control before that. And 2 there's -- 3 (Inaudible discussion.) 4 HOWARD - BACK ROW: You mean, rent 5 regulations. 6 (Inaudible discussion.) 7 HOWARD HUSOCK: I understand, rent 8 regulation/rent-stabilized, but it's within the 9 State's purview, speaking of what's in the State's 10 purview. 11 So it -- and I don't want to get it into 12 (inaudible), but, I will in a moment -- but it does 13 seem like it's worth it. 14 My concern with that is, not so much the -- 15 you know, the aggrieved landlord, or anything else, 16 but it's really of a piece with the other things 17 we're talking about. And I call it: The problem of 18 the frozen city. 19 All right? 20 When you fix uses, when you don't permit the 21 kind of adaptations that you're talking about, you 22 risk the dynamicy (ph.) becoming the frozen city. 23 And it's a terrible risk to New York, in particular. 24 And, so, I agree that, most of the time, rent 25 regulation is irrelevant right now. Especially in 1 the outer boroughs, is a wash. 2 Right? 3 But we know there are high demand areas 4 where there are going to be people who just -- 5 (inaudible) a high-end version of the example of the 6 older woman in St. Albans, right, who stayed put 7 forever, because we've given them a powerful 8 disincentive to ever move. 9 Now, I don't know if there's any way to do 10 anything about that without getting into a total 11 time war, but -- 12 JERILYN PERINE: I mean, I don't disagree 13 with you, Harry, actually. I mean, I actually think 14 you should, sort of, stop picking on the 15 public-housing people, and start picking on the 16 people who live in the Biltmore (ph). 17 But -- personally. 18 But, you know, because they live, like, 19 catty-corner from each other. But, the bigger 20 subsidies are actually going to the people in the 21 Biltmore, you know, who are in, like, you know, 22 ten-room fabulous, palatial apartments. 23 And, you know -- 24 JUDY CALOGERO: Rent stabilized. 25 JERILYN PERINE: -- so -- 1 HOWARD HUSOCK: And we did have a long-term 2 plan -- and we did have a long-term plan to deal 3 with it. 4 JERILYN PERINE: -- so -- 5 That's right, which was vacancy decontrol. 6 FRANK ANELANTE: Right. 7 JERILYN PERINE: I just -- you know, to me, 8 it's just become one of those issues, that you 9 just -- you just -- you can't get traction on it. 10 It's sort of -- it's like having -- 11 SENATOR YOUNG: It's demagogue. 12 JERILYN PERINE: -- it's just too much to 13 even -- you know, it sucks the air out of -- out 14 of the room. 15 JUDY CALOGERO: Let's just agree, there's no 16 relationship between rent stabilization and 17 affordable housing. 18 JERILYN PERINE: Yeah, and I -- you know, 19 look -- look, I think -- I think, on both sides, the 20 arguments are wrong; right? 21 I mean, I think, on the developer's side, the 22 idea that, you know, no one builds because -- well, 23 that's nonsense, because anybody who builds after 24 74 isn't subject to rent regulation. 25 And I think, that: Oh, my God, if we didn't 1 have rent regulation, all of these poor people would 2 be kicked out. -- well, I think, you know, every 3 study that's done sort of shows that that's not 4 really the case, you know, either. 5 (Inaudible discussion.) 6 JERILYN PERINE: But -- but, sort of, is one 7 of those bizarre affectations of New York City, 8 that I think it's, kind of, like, we have to live 9 with. It's -- you know. 10 But, I do think there are ways to eat away 11 at the edges. I think, you know, the vacancy 12 decontrol rules, I think, also. 13 And, just trying to create other ways to 14 create movement in the housing market. 15 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Right. 16 SENATOR YOUNG: Like, succession, for 17 example; right? 18 JERILYN PERINE: Yeah, I mean, look, we've 19 got a very dysfunctional situation, where people 20 just hang on to where they are, because -- because 21 they've got, you know, the proverbial good deal, is 22 part of it, but, there's no other option, is the 23 other side of it as well. 24 So, I'm -- I've given up on that side of it, 25 and I'm now just trying to focus on the other 1 options that might be put on the table for people, 2 and see if we can get some movement that way. 3 HOWARD HUSOCK: No, and I totally recognize 4 that you're doing something constructive and 5 positive. And that's a lot better than hitting your 6 head against the wall. 7 JERILYN PERINE: Yes, which I spent many 8 years doing, so, I have given that up. 9 [Laughter.] 10 (Inaudible discussion.) 11 JERILYN PERINE: It feels good when you 12 stop. 13 [Laugher.] 14 HOWARD HUSOCK: Has there ever been -- I 15 mean, just -- I mean, you might consider laying the 16 ground work for change. 17 I mean, has it -- do we know much about the 18 income mix, by zip code, or census track, of 19 rent-regulated apartments? 20 JERILYN PERINE: We know a great deal. Oh, 21 yeah, absolutely. Sure. 22 FRANK ANELANTE: The CDC also does the study. 23 And, Elizabeth Rohrstocker (ph.) just did one 24 last year. 25 JERILYN PERINE: Yeah, Betsy Rohrstocker does 1 it every year. I's really good. It shows the 2 (inaudible). 3 (Inaudible discussion.) 4 JERILYN PERINE: Thank God for (inaudible). 5 The people with the highest income are getting the 6 biggest benefit. I mean -- 7 VICKI BEEN: It's in Manhattan. 8 JERILYN PERINE: It's in Manhattan. 9 (inaudible). 10 HOWARD HUSOCK: It's exactly what you would 11 expect (inaudible). 12 (Inaudible discussion.) 13 JERILYN PERINE: It's (inaudible) 14 neighborhood, yeah. 15 VICKI BEEN: So why -- so, why do, then, we 16 continue to have it? 17 That's part of the question; right? 18 And part of the answer is: Because, 19 tenants don't understand what it costs them. 20 HOWARD HUSOCK: Right. 21 FRANK ANELANTE: That's right. 22 JERILYN PERINE: That's right. 23 FRANK ANELANTE: That's right. 24 VICKI BEEN: So, one way would be, to tell 25 tenants how much they're paying in the monthly 1 rent for property tax. 2 You know? 3 FRANK ANELANTE: Or, the whole rest of the 4 city; right? 5 VICKI BEEN: (Inaudible) across the city; 6 right? 7 (Inaudible discussion.) 8 FRANK ANELANTE: And there are, really, 9 two places of rent stabilization -- or, rent 10 stabilization, rent regulation. 11 I mean, there's the, you know, higher-priced 12 apartments that are rent regulated; 13 And there's apartments, like in my 14 portfolio. I rent a one-bedroom apartment, on 15 average, for about $731. That's not tax -- that 16 excludes our tax (inaudible). 17 HOWARD HUSOCK: Absent regulation, what would 18 it rent for? 19 FRANK ANELANTE: It would probably rent for 20 minimal, but, you know, let me -- we all often had 21 this, the concept of legal rent and market rent. 22 And, at any one time, we have 20 to 25 percent of 23 our apartments where we give a preferential rent. 24 We register the higher legal rent to preserve 25 it, but we find we can't rent that apartment for -- 1 SENATOR YOUNG: So the market really -- 2 FRANK ANELANTE: -- so, the market really 3 does dictate. 4 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well, that's -- 5 HOWARD HUSOCK: That's really interesting. 6 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: That's just, really, 7 (inaudible) that's dysfunctional. 8 JUDY CALOGERO: You preserve the right to go 9 back to the market rate. 10 FRANK ANELANTE: Yes, we give them 11 preferential (inaudible). 12 JUDY CALOGERO: What are the reasons for 13 preferential rent? Is it strictly market-driven, or 14 are there other reasons? 15 FRANK ANELANTE: Mainly -- 16 JUDY CALOGERO: (Inaudible) tenant? 17 FRANK ANELANTE: Excuse me? 18 JUDY CALOGERO: Would you use it to keep a 19 good tenant? 20 FRANK ANELANTE: We have -- after the 21 economic downturn in 2008, we actually did freeze 22 some rents. We didn't roll any back, but we did 23 freeze some rents in some projects, to help the 24 tenants out, and we said: We understand. 25 We'll -- you know. And we work with them, to do it. 1 But it's, basically -- and I've seen it over 2 time, the -- that 20 to 25 percent varies among the 3 buildings. It's not like every -- the building 4 stays with that preferential rent. It varies from 5 building to building, and, you know, the vagaries of 6 the market. But, we do preserve it. 7 But market really does work, even on that 8 end. 9 And vacancy decontrol would be a nice simple 10 way of living -- 11 HOWARD HUSOCK: It really would. 12 FRANK ANELANTE: -- of -- you know, where -- 13 but, it's not going to happen. 14 In fact, the rent laws were just extended, 15 only four years, which tells me, in four years, 16 there's going to be, probably, a bloodbath. 17 HOWARD HUSOCK: I mean, if you couldn't do it 18 in 1973, when you had a declining population in the 19 city, and it became politically impossible to do it 20 even then -- 21 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Right. 22 HOWARD HUSOCK: -- and, then, when will you 23 be able to do it? 24 SENATOR YOUNG: But that's the question that 25 I have now: The income and the rent levels were 1 raised, and what impacts will that have on the 2 market now? 3 And, you know, I'm interested in seeing some 4 information on that. 5 I mean, what is the real impact of raising 6 the rent levels? 7 Because, as you said, in four years, the 8 whole topic is going to come up again. And, you 9 know, we need to fully understand what just 10 happened. 11 JERILYN PERINE: Right. 12 Well, I'm assuming that will be 13 Betsy Rohrstocker -- (inaudible). 14 HOWARD - BACK ROW: Yeah, and I assume 15 (inaudible). She's pretty good (inaudible) on that. 16 I mean, you can get -- 17 JUDY CALOGERO: Where's that published? 18 HOWARD - BACK ROW: (Inaudible.) Most times, 19 in (inaudible) citizens' budget. 20 So, they had a report when this was a hot 21 topic, was it, this year, or the year before -- or 22 whatever -- which ever year it was. 23 I mean, but we can -- what we basically 24 (inaudible) understand, that, you know, the new 25 system was will slow down the process. 1 There might be some buildings there, some 2 units that will convert, but it will be fewer than 3 it would have been before. And, rent that was a 4 40-year program may become a 50-year program, I 5 mean, absent further changes, but there will 6 always pressure for further changes. 7 (Inaudible) hyperbaric; right? 8 We'll never get to -- you know, we'll keep 9 changing it so that we never get to zero. I don't 10 know. 11 SENATOR YOUNG: Just getting this interesting 12 dynamic out there now, where you have 13 Occupy Wall Street down the street from here, and 14 this whole movement against the 1 percent; yet, 15 we're the -- the data and the changes to the rent 16 laws actually benefited, in many cases, the 17 1 percent of the wealthy people in Manhattan. 18 JERILYN PERINE: Yes. 19 SENATOR YOUNG: So there's a real disconnect 20 there. There's a dichotomy there, that -- 21 FRANK ANELANTE: (Inaudible.) 22 SENATOR YOUNG: Right. 23 -- and it's interesting that the very same 24 people in government who are nodding the 25 Occupy Wall Street people, are the same ones who are 1 pushing to expanded rent regulations. 2 HOWARD HUSOCK: The theory of that is, that 3 housing should be cheap. Anywhere you have it, it 4 should be cheap. 5 It's the only theory I can infer from that. 6 But, your observation is exactly accurate. 7 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. 8 So -- 9 FRANK ANELANTE: But, though, because it's 10 not built on logic. It's built on emotions, and 11 people are afraid. 12 An interesting thing, I did it last year: If 13 you looked at -- the New York Council of 14 Cooperatives puts out operating data for 15 cooperative apartments. 16 And if you added that up, and compare it to 17 the rent levels for affordable housing, you see 18 what low margins there are. 19 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. 20 FRANK ANELANTE: I mean, there's always a 21 precarious balance of keeping these things 22 physically viable and economically viable. 23 And, when I testified before the RGB, I tried 24 to point this out. 25 I say: You know, you're not making tons of 1 money on something under the $31 rents. But you've 2 got have to give us enough rent. 3 And like my most successful projects, were 4 the ones, simple. The old PLPs, or the old 5 straight CPCs, where you'd have, you know, they 6 would set the rents here, and operating expenses 7 would be here. And, over time, they went up, and we 8 always had a nice little gap. 9 And those were very successful projects. And 10 the more -- the more we tinker with the programs, 11 the more, you know, complicated we make them. And, 12 now, our tax credits, those income maxes, you 13 know, rent maxes, that you can't go beyond, again, 14 if you're going to start capping rents and don't cap 15 expenses, you're going to run into problems. 16 It's -- I mean, it's disaster waiting to happen. 17 It's kicking the can down the road. 18 And, as Jerilyn said, nobody's willing to 19 take on rent regulation. They're just not. 20 HOWARD HUSOCK: Here's a question I have in 21 that regard; and, I think, Howard, you mentioned, 22 about, the property taxes, are -- property taxes 23 have been artificially low in New York forever, 24 compared to most cities, and certainly compared to 25 the adjourning suburban counties. 1 Is that going to start to change, because 2 Wall Street's, actually -- I mean, it's occupied by 3 Dodd-Frank; right? 4 And the likelihood of, kind of, outsized 5 revenues that are going to be able to 6 cross-subsidize property taxes, as they have 7 historically, I think, is diminishing, so you could 8 see, property tax bills have to rise. And that 9 would make those costs -- those cross-subsidization 10 costs more apparent, and could change the dynamic of 11 the discussion. 12 JERILYN PERINE: But it's not all property 13 taxes; right? 14 I mean, the Class 1, the small homes, are 15 artificially low. The taxes on multiple dwellings 16 are disproportionately high. 17 So, we've created sort of dysfunction layered 18 on dysfunction in our tax system locally. 19 JUDY CALOGERO: How about, on the co-ops and 20 condos, are they disproportionately high also? 21 JERILYN PERINE: Yes. 22 HOWARD - BACK ROW: But they're in a special 23 tax break, so they're paying less than they would 24 pay as if they were rentals. 25 JERILYN PERINE: But the moral -- I mean, 1 this is always our example. 2 Howard lives in a one-family house in a very 3 nice neighborhood, Forest Hills in Queens; and I 4 live in a co-op apartment on the Upper West Side. 5 I pay a lot more. But, you know, we each 6 have a comparably sized family in our spaces. We 7 probably even have comparable space. 8 Close. 9 HOWARD - BACK ROW: Close. 10 JERILYN PERINE: Close. 11 You can park your car there. 12 HOWARD - BACK ROW: Yeah. 13 JERILYN PERINE: I can't. 14 So -- but he pays a lot less than me. 15 HOWARD - BACK ROW: But, because Cost 1 is 16 assessed at 6 percent of market value, and everybody 17 else is 45 percent of market value. 18 JERILYN PERINE: Right. 19 FRANK ANELANTE: And, luckily, for when you 20 rehabilitate, we (inaudible) benefits. Or, if it's 21 new construction, 421A, which mitigates the tax 22 burden. 23 But what is happening, unfortunately, is the 24 water. The water bills are really going to sink 25 us, literally. They have gone up enormously. I 1 mean, they've just doubled since 2001. And that's a 2 serious problem, because that's something that the 3 landlord has to pay. The tenant has no idea what 4 their water usage is, or cost to the landlord, so 5 there's no incentive for them to conserve. 6 And it's -- 7 HOWARD - BACK ROW: (Inaudible) -- 8 JUDY CALOGERO: Can you submeter for water? 9 FRANK ANELANTE: No. 10 JUDY CALOGERO: No? 11 FRANK ANELANTE: No. 12 JUDY CALOGERO: Isn't that allowed, or not 13 possible? 14 HOWARD - BACK ROW: It's, physically, very 15 different, because then you've got to, like, put 16 a -- you've got to put a meter on, basically, every 17 pipe -- 18 JUDY CALOGERO: Yeah. 19 HOWARD - BACK ROW: -- and then add them up. 20 FRANK ANELANTE: (Inaudible.) 21 HOWARD - BACK ROW: -- normally, because, 22 normally, you don't pipe your building from one rise 23 at a -- into an apartment. You pipe it just, 24 vertically, right, and there's multiple -- 25 FRANK ANELANTE: And then you'll have to read 1 it. 2 Comet (ph) doesn't even let you individual 3 meter for gas anymore. Now they have a building 4 master meter, so they don't even read the meters for 5 gas anymore. 6 JUDY CALOGERO: They won't? 7 So you can't submeter for gas? 8 FRANK ANELANTE: Nope. No more. 9 I once went to the Public Service Commission 10 on one of the rehabs. I was so ordered. And I 11 got a $9-a-month increase for the rent -- to pass on 12 to the rent. 13 But, no, you can put it in individual meters 14 for gas anymore. So, they'll never do water. 15 SENATOR YOUNG: So how should the tax 16 structure be structured? 17 HOWARD - BACK ROW: And just to go to 18 Howard's point, we were looking at the components 19 of expanding the average rent-stabilized building. 20 And if you break that down into taxes, maintenance, 21 fuel, utilities, insurance -- all that kind of 22 stuff -- taxes -- real estate taxes is the biggest 23 one. It's about $200 a month, out of something 24 that -- something's that's under $800-a-month cost. 25 The real estate taxes is a big one, and 1 that's not even counting the water-and-sewer 2 component that's actually real estate taxes. 3 JERILYN PERINE: Of course, changing the 4 real estate taxes makes changing rent regulation 5 look like a walk in the park. 6 [Laughter.] 7 JERILYN PERINE: (Inaudible) grants, to 8 rent-regulation, to property taxes, (inaudible) the 9 trifecta of horrible, (inaudible) issues. 10 And then there's Santa Claus. 11 [Laugher.] 12 (Inaudible discussion.) 13 HOWARD - BACK ROW: (Inaudible) there is a 14 Santa Clause. 15 HOWARD HUSOCK: I'm not proposing to changing 16 those things. I'm saying, are facts on the ground 17 going to start to force change in the property 18 taxes, that are going to have -- 19 VICKI BEEN: And, Howard, the most depressing 20 class I believe I have ever had, was twenty of my 21 smartest law students, who insisted, that the fact 22 that they were renters protected them from any 23 property tax unfairness, or raises, or anything 24 else. 25 And we're, like: You pay property taxes in 1 your rent. 2 "No, we don't. No, we don't. We pay rent." 3 You're really smart. You pay that tax. 4 They you don't get it. 5 FRANK ANELANTE: (Inaudible) environment, 6 with Washington, with the budget cuts that are 7 looming. 8 They're going to have to loom in the state. 9 I was reading they're in bad shape too. 10 I mean -- 11 SENATOR YOUNG: That's one of the questions: 12 With limited resources, what do we do, going 13 forward? 14 JERILYN PERINE: But on the tax side, I think 15 this is something, where the State is so involved 16 with the City, because, this is why we have built up 17 a plethora of tax-exemption programs that support, 18 you know, housing development, in general, but, 19 affordable housing, very specifically. And these 20 programs are, God knows, not perfect, but they 21 are really important, because, until we reach that 22 moment when Santa comes, and -- you know, and it's 23 the unicorn arrives, we need these other 24 programs to keep -- to keep things on somewhat of 25 an even keel. And -- 1 JUDY CALOGERO: They're helping us to be able 2 to stay afloat. 3 FRANK ANELANTE: Yeah, right. Right. 4 JUDY CALOGERO: I mean, they're just -- 5 you're just -- 6 JERILYN PERINE: But we need them. 7 JUDY CALOGERO: Oh, I -- 8 JERILYN PERINE: I mean, without it, 9 everything -- 10 JUDY CALOGERO: Millions and millions of 11 dollars into the trust fund, and the state tax 12 revenue, it wouldn't be -- you would be -- you'd be 13 able to use it. 14 FRANK ANELANTE: When J -- yeah. 15 When J-51 legislation lapsed in the '80s, 16 rehabilitation just stopped. 17 JERILYN PERINE: Just stopped. 18 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. 19 FRANK ANELANTE: But -- I'm sorry. Go ahead. 20 JUDY CALOGERO: Well, I was going to say, and 21 you take that next -- that further: If you just 22 want to look at the State portfolio, and talk about 23 preservation, I think the looming issue for the 24 State is going to be its own portfolio, and what it 25 needs to happen to it in order to maintain it. 1 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. 2 FRANK ANELANTE: But -- yeah. 3 VICKI BEEN: And how the State sets 4 priorities for preservation. 5 FRANK ANELANTE: Right, but also looming 6 there, too, and there's a flag looming, is the 7 prevailing wage, which will add 30 percent to -- or 8 more, to the cost of rehab. 9 And the cost isn't even the worst of it. And 10 I keep saying this, but it gets lost in the 11 discussions: Prevailing wage, it's a matter of -- 12 listen, if we build it into the job, we pay the 13 wage, and that's what the cost is. 14 Of course, we need more subsidy. So, it 15 costs the government more, but it -- prevailing 16 wages (inaudible). 17 The biggest problem I have, as an 18 owner/developer, is, if I pay the prevailing wage, 19 and I give it to the sub, and he doesn't pay -- he 20 gives me certified payroll, whatever, whatever -- 21 but he doesn't pay it. He gets a kickback back, or 22 something else, and he gets caught, and he just goes 23 out of business, the liability comes back to me. 24 And that seems to me, unfair. 25 I think, if there is at least going to be a 1 prevailing wage, there should be rules to say: 2 Here's what you have to do to document that you paid 3 it. And if you followed these rules, and a sub 4 breaks it, you're not ultimately responsible. 5 So, I think it's a two-edged sword -- you 6 know, it's a two-part problem. 7 HOWARD HUSOCK: Like Romney and his gardener. 8 FRANK ANELANTE: There you go. 9 JERILYN PERINE: The Senator will never want 10 to come back and talk to us again, then, because 11 we're all mostly terrible. 12 [Laugher.] 13 (Inaudible discussion.) 14 JUDY CALOGERO: I think if you have 15 prevailing wage, that you'll see no affordable. I 16 think your subsidies that the State does have will 17 be meaningless, and I don't think that there's much 18 development that will happen. 19 I think that you'll see the benefits of the 20 program, they will be cut in half, if not more. 21 FRANK ANELANTE: Oh, it will be cut. I mean, 22 some developer will -- some will make the numbers 23 work. But the numbers are hard now without 24 prevailing wage. They really are, to getting the 25 adequate subsidies, and cobbling together what's 1 needed. It's unfortunate. 2 JUDY CALOGERO: Yeah, I wish the communities 3 would come together and just look at a deal, on 4 paper, and pencil out a deal, and look at it. 5 And -- because, I think that you can show the 6 unions, on paper, that it doesn't work, to pay 7 those wages. 8 And so (inaudible) the income group for the 9 developers required to, under those programs. 10 They don't pencil out. Very, very rarely. 11 SENATOR YOUNG: So the outcome would be, no 12 jobs? 13 JUDY CALOGERO: No jobs, and no housing. 14 Right. 15 FRANK ANELANTE: Right. 16 JUDY CALOGERO: It's lose-lose. 17 SENATOR YOUNG: Right. Okay. 18 Are there any other topics that you want to 19 bring up, because I think we are covered a -- this 20 is exactly what I wanted: I wanted to cover a broad 21 base of housing issues, and, identifying some of the 22 problems, identifying some of the solutions. 23 So, here's your big chance to jump in again, 24 before we go. 25 HOWARD - BACK ROW: This hasn't been 1 depressing enough? You want more? 2 HOWARD HUSOCK: (Inaudible) about the 3 "multiple dwellings" law, and new adaptations, is 4 a very promising strain to come up. 5 FRANK ANELANTE: That is, actually. 6 JERILYN PERINE: Yeah. And we'll -- you 7 know, we'll stay in touch with Teresa, because we 8 are -- we are, you know, taking it forward. I mean, 9 we've spent three years on this. And, you know, 10 at the beginning, everybody wanted to hit us with a 11 tomato, but, now, you know, we've actually got a lot 12 of very positive response. 13 And I think people realize that it can't all 14 be about trying to build brand new buildings, you 15 know, where everybody gets a two-bedroom apartment 16 for the mom, the dad, and the two kids. Like, 17 that's nice, but you keep doing it, but, it's -- 18 it's not going to really make room for another 19 900,000 people in New York City. 20 So -- 21 HOWARD HUSOCK: Right, and you don't have 22 interest groups lined up around this issue. 23 JERILYN PERINE: We do. 24 HOWARD HUSOCK: Do you? 25 JERILYN PERINE: Actually, many. 1 HOWARD HUSOCK: Oh, okay. 2 JERILYN PERINE: People interested in 3 immigrant rights are involved with us, people 4 interested in green-sustainable agendas, who -- 5 HOWARD HUSOCK: But they're outside. 6 Doesn't -- 7 (Inaudible discussion.) 8 HOWARD HUSOCK: Right, I'm saying, like a lot 9 of these other issues we've talked, we've got 10 entrenched interest groups against any changes. 11 JERILYN PERINE: Oh, well, they'll -- they'll 12 emerge immediately. 13 (Inaudible discussion). 14 JERILYN PERINE: But the fact is -- 15 HOWARD HUSOCK: It's something the Senator 16 could, actually, plausibly accomplish. 17 JERILYN PERINE: But the fact is, I think, 18 we -- you know, we do have the -- I mean, people who 19 are interested in green-sustainable housing are 20 interested in, you know, living smaller, living in 21 shared spaces. 22 Again, you know, the immigrants' groups'. 23 People who are advocating for the elderly. 24 Even the vision of what elderly people want, is 25 quite different today, and over the next 20 and 1 30 years, than it was 30 years ago. 2 And, so, like -- I mean, we're seeing a lot 3 of -- and, of course, like, the cultural group, the 4 arts groups, all those constituencies, are very 5 much part of this as well. 6 JUDY CALOGERO: I think the important thing 7 to do is, we're a "show-me society." 8 "Show me." 9 I think the idea of a demonstration project 10 or program would be very beneficial. 11 I think one of the opponents of this would 12 actually be some of the people in state government. 13 And, there are architects who are set on different 14 standards for square footage, in particular. 15 And, so, I think you have to bring them 16 along, and get them to do it. And I don't think 17 it's a matter of just saying: This is how it's done 18 in Japan, or this is how it's done in Hong Kong, or 19 this is how it's done in Germany. 20 I think we've got to show them that it can be 21 done here, in a reasonable way, and still maintain a 22 quality of life, or standard, that is common to our 23 ways in the state. 24 FRANK ANELANTE: And I would always be 25 willing to do a demonstration program. I have 1 offered in the past, and done things in past, as a 2 pilot. We'll take a shot at it. 3 SENATOR YOUNG: That's great, Frank. 4 VICKI BEEN: I just want to put one more 5 thing on the table -- 6 SENATOR YOUNG: Yes, Vicki. 7 VICKI BEEN: -- very briefly; and that is, 8 you know, we do have a huge amount of housing that 9 will come to its expiration point, and we'll have to 10 preserve it, or not, and, unlikely that we're going 11 to have enough dollars to preserve every unit. 12 And, I think that local governments need 13 help in prioritizing, because it's all too easy for 14 Stuy Town, or others to, you know, come out in 15 force, and say: We need to be preserved. 16 But, those dollars need to be spent in a 17 cost-effective way. And I think that's really hard. 18 JUDY CALOGERO: And I think that there's a -- 19 a lot of the money is controlled by the State and by 20 local government, but a lot of the problems are 21 housing that was originally financed by the Feds. 22 And I think that there's a reluctance by the State, 23 in particular, to use a lot of its money to fix 24 problems, in their opinion, they think are 25 created. And I think that's going to be part of the 1 challenge. 2 HOWARD HUSOCK: And you're implying 3 (inaudible), I think, that you can get a lot more 4 for your money if you're not preserving higher-end 5 projects; right? 6 VICKI BEEN: Well, there may be all kinds of 7 criteria that you would use, but it should be 8 thoughtful strategic criteria, rather than, just, 9 I'm going preserve whatever the neighbors are 10 noisy -- you know, (inaudible) noisiest about. 11 HOWARD - BACK ROW: There has to be a way to 12 weight that. There has to be a way to say: I could 13 spend $100 million in Stuyvesant Town, and what am I 14 preserving, as opposed to spending, maybe, in 15 Bed-Sty on some old federal Section 8 expiring 16 project, which costs a lot less? It's poor people. 17 What -- how do I weigh those two things, and 18 decide where my money should be spent? 19 And I think that's kind of Vicki's question, 20 and it's a really important one. 21 VICKI BEEN: And the political situation is 22 not one to ask those very strategic 23 cost-effectiveness questions; right? 24 So, it needs help. 25 SENATOR YOUNG: Uh-huh. Okay. 1 Well, I thought today was very positive. 2 Jerilyn, I think it was very positive. 3 But, I also want to say to you, that, I like 4 to be interactive. So, anytime you have an idea or 5 a concern or a question, I would love to hear from 6 you, because the Housing Committee in the Senate, I 7 think, in the past, hasn't been, you know, as active 8 as, maybe, it could be. 9 And, so, I want to make it more active and, 10 you know, more relevant and more effective. 11 And, people like you, who thoroughly 12 understand these issues, are tremendous resources, 13 for the Committee and the Senate, and the State. 14 So, hopefully, we can continue this dialogue, 15 but, I want to sincerely thank you for coming today. 16 I thought it was great. 17 JERILYN PERINE: Thank you. 18 JUDY CALOGERO: I haven't participated in 19 something like this since 1981, when, uhm, 20 Senator -- from Niagara Falls was the 21 Housing Committee. 22 SENATOR YOUNG: Senator Daly? 23 JUDY CALOGERO: -- Senator John Daly. 24 It has not happened since then. 25 Thank you. 1 SENATOR YOUNG: Thank you. 2 (Whereupon, the Roundtable discussion 3 concluded.) 4 ---oOo--- 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25