PUBLIC FORUM: SUFFOLK COUNTY PANEL DISCUSSION ON LONG ISLAND'S HEROIN EPIDEMIC

President, Nassau County Detectives Association 20 21 ---oOo--- 22 QUESTIONS & ANSWERS, AND STATEMENTS: 23 MORNING PORTION PAGE 98 24 AFTERNOON PORTION PAGE 175 25 ---oOo--- 1 "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the 2 United States of America and to the republic for 3 which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, 4 with liberty and justice for all. 5 SHANNA [ph.]: Hi, I'm Shanna [ph.], and this 6 is my story. 7 I'm 26 years old and come from a great 8 family. My parents are happily married, and I have 9 three sisters. I grew up with tons of love and no 10 trauma. 11 I always like to say that in my story because 12 this disease does not discriminate. 13 I struggled in school because of having ADHD. 14 My mom did not want to put me on medication, but 15 I quickly self-medicated. I was drinking, and 16 smoking marijuana, almost every day on the weekends. 17 I didn't see a problem with it. It was just weed 18 and alcohol. 19 I dropped out of high school in 20 eleventh grade and went to beauty school. 21 I continued to drink and smoke, and I didn't see a 22 problem with it. 23 People would tell me that I drank too much. 24 Every time I drank, it was to black out or 25 pass out, but, I still didn't see a problem. 1 I met a boyfriend at 18. He was using 2 pain killers. I tried them and it was love at first 3 try. I quickly became addicted. My body needed it 4 and I couldn't live without it. I was addicted from 5 that first time. 6 I ran out of money quickly, and he turned me 7 on to heroin because it was cheaper and easier to 8 get. 9 My parents came to me and told me I needed to 10 go away and get help. 11 That was my first experience with the detox. 12 The detox, they told me that I was able to go 13 to inpatient, but only for two weeks, because that's 14 all my insurance would cover. It just wasn't 15 enough. I got out and I started using right away. 16 I met another guy, going to the rooms of 17 Narcotics Anonymous, and at that point, I thought 18 that maybe I wanted to change, and maybe I wanted to 19 do the right thing, but, a part of me just still 20 didn't have enough treatment in me, didn't have 21 enough time away from the drug. And, he started 22 using, and, quickly, I just followed down that same 23 path again. 24 He was an IV user, and I quickly realized how 25 much more high you can get if you injected it 1 instead of sniffing it; and that's what happened. 2 My parents, you know, begged me to stop, and 3 begged me to get into treatment. 4 And a couple of times I said yes, and I would 5 go, but, my insurance would run out, and I'd have to 6 leave. Or, they've told me that I couldn't get in, 7 'cause I had to go to outpatient and fail first. 8 And, definitely, outpatient at that point was 9 not an option for me. I needed help. I needed to 10 be away, and I needed to be away for a long time. 11 I would just continue to go back out and 12 I continued to use, and, eventually, the money ran 13 out. My parents couldn't have me live in the house 14 anymore. 15 Like I said, I have three sisters that I was 16 destroying. They would watch me walk around like a 17 zombie. 18 And, I went and stayed in my car, with my 19 boyfriend. And, we didn't have anymore money, so we 20 decided to rob someone. 21 This is not something that I would ever have 22 done if I wasn't addicted to heroin and so sick, 23 that I just didn't know how else to get what 24 I needed. 25 I had gotten arrested. That was on 1 October 4, 2010. And, I was sent to Nassau County 2 Jail. 3 I was arraigned for $120,000, and now I was 4 sitting in a jail cell, and didn't know how my life 5 had gotten to where it was, and how I was ever gonna 6 come out of where I was. 7 On October 5, 2010, I got called down in 8 Nassau County Jail, and I was told that my boyfriend 9 had committed suicide. 10 He had been struggling for 10 years with 11 heroin. He's tried to get clean, and he just 12 couldn't do it. He had tried to get into treatment 13 a couple of times, and he was denied treatment. 14 And, we ended up in that cell, and he was 15 withdrawing, and I guess he found no better way than 16 to just end it. 17 So now I was sitting in jail, with $120,000 18 bail. My boyfriend was now dead, and I just -- 19 I didn't know what to do. 20 And my dad came, and my grandfather bailed me 21 out of jail. 22 I still got out of jail and could not get 23 into treatment. The judge saw it as two separate 24 issues: a robbery, and a drug addict. 25 That, they didn't see the reason that I did 1 the robbery was because I was addicted to drugs. 2 They completely separated it. 3 And, I had to pay a lot of money to get into 4 treatment. I went to a 28-day program, and I got 5 out. 6 And in that 28-day program, something clicked 7 to me, you know, I really needed to change my life 8 because, if I didn't, I was gonna die. 9 And, I got out, and for a week I was using. 10 And while I was in treatment, my the little 11 sister, she was 12 years old, she wrote me a letter: 12 I just want my sister back. Like, please. 13 And, uhm -- she -- when I got out, that kept 14 playing in my head, over and over again. 15 And at that point I said: I need to go away, 16 and I need to go away for a long time. I really 17 need to change. 18 And I went to my dad and I told him: I'm 19 ready to go, and I need to go, and I need to be away 20 for a very long time. 21 And, I went to Daytop for nine months, and 22 that's when my journey started. 23 I just really -- I was willing to do anything 24 I had to, to live. I didn't want to die. 25 And I did. I got enrolled in school. I went 1 to a sober house out east. And, my life has been 2 just completely different since that day. 3 Now I'm in Suffolk Community College, going 4 to get my CASAC, to be able to help other people, 5 you know, that were struggling once like I was. 6 And, I have a beautiful 4-month-old little 7 girl, and, it terrifies me that she'll have to go 8 down the same path that I did. 9 But I know she doesn't have to, as long as 10 I can remain a power of example to her, and, you 11 know, just do what I have to do to make sure that, 12 you know, she doesn't have to try these drugs, and 13 she doesn't have -- but, if there's not a change in 14 being able to get into treatment, then, you know, 15 like, what if she does need help and she can't get 16 it? 17 That's what my biggest concern is, and I just 18 hope everything changes, and, you know, we can 19 change something. 20 That's it. 21 Thank you. 22 [Applause.] 23 ARTHUR MURR: Hi, my name's Art Murr. This 24 is my wife, Denise. 25 We really want to thank Senator Boyle and 1 everybody for putting this together for us. 2 We lost our son, Matt, 25 -- he was 25. We 3 lost him on February the 3rd, 2011, after a 4 7-year battle with addiction. 5 He was our only child, but, in reality, they 6 were like -- there were two of him: There was Matt, 7 clean and sober. There was Matt, when he wasn't. 8 He was -- when he was clean and sober, he was 9 confident, he was fun-loving, he was sensitive, he 10 was gregarious. He had this laugh that everybody 11 would just, like, draw themselves towards. 12 DENISE MURR: We could talk about anything. 13 The three of us had a strong bond that never 14 wavered. 15 A rehab counselor told us, when Matt read the 16 part of his bio about his family life before drugs, 17 people actually cried because it sounded like such a 18 happy life. 19 ARTHUR MURR: Matt on drugs, however, was a 20 completely different person. He was depressed, he 21 had low self-esteem, he hated himself. He was 22 disappointed with the world. He was withdrawn. 23 And, just adjectives I don't even want to think 24 about. 25 He was always very sensitive. 1 9/11 was a big thing for him. He just never 2 understood what happened there. It was horrifying 3 to him. 4 But at moments of reflection, he'd start 5 crying hysterically to us. He knew what he was 6 doing was wrong: what he was doing to himself, what 7 he was doing to us, what he was doing to his 8 friends. 9 He knew it was wrong, but the drugs would 10 negate anything that was, like, rational thought or 11 behavior. 12 He said he was ashamed, he was embarrassed. 13 He didn't want us to tell anyone. 14 We didn't. 15 Basically, shame and stigma won in that 16 situation. 17 Matt was diagnosed with ADD in the 18 middle school. Medication was suggested. We said 19 no. Drugs weren't just -- well, they weren't part 20 of our lives. 21 But when he turned 15, we real- -- we had 22 to -- we decided that medication was really 23 necessary. 24 He was very frustrated in school, but he was 25 very against medication. 1 He said we in the school taught him that 2 drugs was not the answer. 3 DENISE MURR: We finally felt that Matt 4 agreed, but had a battle many times with him taking 5 the Adderall. He would put it in his mouth, and 6 spit it out if I turned away. 7 Many times I found the pill left somewhere in 8 the house. 9 In Matt's case, Adderall was the first drug 10 that he later abused. 11 ARTHUR MURR: He lasted one semester in 12 college. He failed, came home -- we brought him 13 home, and told us he was using drugs. 14 Since that time, we visited Matt in rehabs 15 for seven years, and when he lived in a homeless 16 shelter. He was down in Florida, and he lived in a 17 homeless shelter. 18 He said every time he went to a new rehab, he 19 would learn about a new drug, and then he would try 20 it. Mushrooms, cocaine, LSD, opiates, pills, 21 heroin, methadone, ectasy; he couldn't stop himself, 22 but he desperately wanted to. 23 He failed one rehab, he'd check himself into 24 another to get clean. 25 Addiction's not a choice here. 1 Addiction's a disease, and he had it. 2 DENISE MURR: We found out about Matt 3 injecting heroin during one of our family sessions 4 with his psychiatrist. I was horrified, and said in 5 disbelief: Needles? But you pass out when you have 6 a blood test. 7 He stood up and he said: That's how much 8 I hate myself. 9 ARTHUR MURR: We do believe that Narcan saved 10 his life during an overdose just after his 11 25th birthday, but we just don't know for sure. 12 The rehab wouldn't talk to us. They said it 13 was privacy laws. It didn't matter that he was 14 gone. 15 Matt died alone in a Brooklyn SRO hotel. The 16 police found him, and called Denise. 17 She called me at work so we could get to the 18 morgue and identify someone else; not Matt. 19 Now we visit Matt at the cemetery. We 20 believe he's not really there, but finally at peace, 21 and someday we'll all be together again. 22 It's just amazing what you can talk yourself 23 into. 24 We printed a poem Matt wrote about addiction 25 on the church funeral pamphlet, and told the priest 1 to talk about addiction at his funeral mass. 2 He did; that started it. We wanted to get it 3 out in the open. We want to stop the shame, we want 4 to stop the stigma. 5 DENISE MURR: Our story is not unique. We 6 know many friends with similar stories. Some are 7 here today. 8 We need to end the shame and stigma. We need 9 awareness, compassion for these people that are 10 sick, and change. 11 ARTHUR MURR: Thank you very much. 12 DENISE MURR: Thank you. 13 [Applause.] 14 JASON: Hi, my name is Jason. 15 My story is very similar to Matt's, similar 16 to Shanna's, similar to a lot of my friends. 17 I grew up with -- my father passed away when 18 I was young; I was about 5 years old. And, I grew 19 up with a mom who loved me more than anything, and 20 gave me everything I ever needed. Right? 21 And, I grew up feeling, the best way to 22 describe it is, like there was like a pebble in my 23 shoe. And I always felt like that pebble was in my 24 shoe, and I could never get it out. Right? 25 When I was young, I played sports. That was 1 the only time I really felt good. 2 I played sports, skated. I -- you know, when 3 I was with my friends, playing, you know, I felt 4 good. 5 But not until I started drinking and smoking, 6 I didn't feel that release of taking that pebble out 7 of my shoe. That's when I felt that. 8 So I continued to look for that feeling. 9 And I made friends, who were good kids, who 10 felt the same way and wanted to get their pebble out 11 of their shoe. Right? 12 Growing up, I, uhm, started progressing into 13 more drugs, just like everybody else. 14 And when I was about 17, just turning 18, it 15 was about a week before my birthday, my best friend 16 overdosed and passed away. 17 And he was IV'ing -- using heroin, shooting 18 heroin. And that was the first time I had tried it. 19 I was so depressed, and I didn't care, and it 20 was available to me, and I just didn't care about 21 myself, and I put my arm out and I had someone just 22 boot it right into me. 23 And, I didn't stop doing that because I felt 24 what I was looking for. That's basically what I was 25 looking for. I didn't feel right without it, and 1 I did with it. 2 And six months later, I had -- same like 3 Shanna, I had a girlfriend overdose and pass away, 4 too. 5 And I felt that I was haunted and that I was 6 different than everybody else, and I was meant to 7 die with a needle in my arm. 8 That's how I lived: like I was going to die 9 with a needle in my arm. 10 And I did that for 5 years -- 4 1/2 to 11 5 years, and in that time I was homeless. 12 I went to numerous psych wards, numerous 13 rehabs; about eight altogether. I can't count the 14 detoxes, jail. 15 I had been everywhere, and I was in a vicious 16 cycle. 17 And, uhm, January 27, 2012, I woke up in a 18 psych ward, and I didn't know where I was, what 19 happened, what I did. 20 Fortunately, I didn't kill anybody, and 21 I didn't do anything that changed my life forever. 22 I could have, though, and I was -- because 23 I was doing things like I was gonna die in a week. 24 That's how I was living my life. 25 And I got -- had a chance to get sober. 1 Right? 2 I was put in a psych ward and they held me 3 there until a rehab bed opened up, and I had a 4 chance to get sober. 5 For another time -- it took me a long time; 6 it took me a long time to get sober. I didn't get 7 it my first shot, and I had this chance. 8 And like Shanna said, I didn't want to die, 9 for once. I wanted to live. 10 So I went on that. 11 And I thought I -- I thought I -- I didn't 12 think I would be living the life I had now. 13 If you would have asked me when I got sober, 14 I would have short-changed myself. 15 I just didn't want to -- I couldn't live with 16 drugs and I couldn't live without them, and I didn't 17 want to feel the way I felt anymore. 18 And there were only a couple ways out: 19 One was suicide; one was to use drugs for the 20 rest of my life. And the other one was to get 21 sober. 22 And I didn't understand what being sober was, 23 and I didn't like how it felt. I couldn't handle 24 it. 25 And, I struggled for a long time, I fought, 1 and I stayed sober, and things got better and life 2 got good. 3 I got my trust of my mother back. 4 I couldn't see where my mother lived for the 5 first eight months of her life. I couldn't see my 6 nephew for the first six months of his life. 7 For the first eight months of her life -- for 8 eight months, she had a new home. I couldn't see 9 where it was, for eight months into sobriety. 10 And for the first six months of my nephew's 11 life, I couldn't see him. 12 And, I got those things back, the intangible 13 things, the things that I really wanted. You know, 14 those good feelings, that happiness that I had when 15 I was younger. 16 And I didn't think I could attain that. 17 And I got that back. 18 And I watch -- it said, because I watched 19 people die all the time. I'm on the firing line, 20 I'm on the front line, and I deal with people. 21 I work in the field, I'm interning in the 22 field right now, and I'm a strong member in 12-step, 23 and I watch people die all the time. 24 My friend -- one of my friends died last 25 month, Nick. He was a great kid. And, he passed 1 away just like so many of my friends. 2 I think I've been nearing 100 wakes right 3 now, I would say, in my lifetime. 4 So, this is an epidemic. 5 My brothers are dying. 6 And, I have to -- it's terrible, because 7 I have to tell somebody: There's no bed in rehab, 8 your insurance doesn't cover you. 9 And, you know, they're throwing up in my 10 garbage pail. And then I have to go to a wake the 11 next night. 12 So, I think that's a problem, and I think 13 there needs to be something done. 14 I don't have that power, but I have as much 15 power -- as much power as I can, I'm giving right 16 now. Try to put a voice to it, try to put a face to 17 it. 18 You know, I'm a recovering heroin addict. 19 I've been arrested by the heroin task force 20 before, so it's kind of funny I'm here speaking in 21 front of it. So -- 22 [Applause.] 23 JASON: But, uhm, I'm here, and I just want 24 to say that, we do get sober, and we live amazing 25 lives, and, we're useful to people. 1 So, thank you. 2 Thank you very much. 3 [Applause.] 4 SENATOR BOYLE: I'd like to thank Shanna, 5 Mr. and Mrs. Murr, and Jason, for sharing your 6 stories. 7 You can find your seats. 8 Thank you very much. 9 [Applause.] 10 SENATOR BOYLE: And this is a perfect example 11 of people who are taking their personal stories and 12 tragedies and turning it around to help others in 13 the same situation. 14 Obviously, Mr. and Mrs. Murr are advocates, 15 and have been for years. 16 And, I met Shanna and Jason in the 17 Suffolk Community College chemical-dependency 18 counseling class I was speaking to last week. 19 And, so, their -- no one knows the story 20 better than they are, and how to help people who 21 need treatment. 22 I want to thank everyone for coming here 23 today. 24 I'm Senator Phil Boyle. I'm the Chairman of 25 the Senate Heroin and Opiate Addiction Task Force. 1 This is the first of 12 forums we're holding 2 around the state. And, Long Island is a very 3 important place to start it, because this is really 4 one of the epicenters of the heroin epidemic. 5 We see it on the news outlets, the 6 Long Island Expressway being the heroin highway. 7 Dealers coming out from the city and giving this -- 8 selling this poison to our children. 9 We need to stop that, and that's why we're 10 here today: to get input from an extremely 11 distinguished panel. 12 We have some of the top prevention, 13 treatment, and law-enforcement officials here on 14 Long Island, in both Nassau and Suffolk county. 15 We're gonna have a forum, a roundtable 16 discussion, and also input from the audience later 17 on in the show -- in the event, with different 18 questions, to get the best kind of answers we need. 19 We're gonna look at legislation. 20 Our task is to -- our mission, is to offer a 21 report by June 1st. 22 Now, our legislative session this year is 23 gonna go to probably the third week in June, so, 24 we're gonna have a few weeks to pass legislation, 25 based on what will be coming out of this report. 1 We're going to hear about some legislation 2 that's probably already been introduced, and some, 3 hopefully, new legislation, thinking outside the 4 box, on the way to fight this heroin epidemic. 5 And it's not just Long Island. It's 6 statewide. 7 I would like to, first, thank 8 Suffolk Community College for hosting this forum. 9 As always, they do a tremendous job and, the place 10 looks great. 11 I'd like to thank all of the participants. 12 And, also, thank my staff -- Chris, Krista, 13 Stevie, everyone -- you did a great job, and, thank 14 you very much for setting this up. 15 Thank you. 16 [Applause.] 17 SENATOR BOYLE: I'd also like to thank our 18 elected official today. 19 We are joined by Suffolk County Sheriff 20 Vincent DeMarco. 21 Sheriff DeMarco, thank you very much. 22 [Applause.] 23 SENATOR BOYLE: And we have 24 Legislator John Kennedy, of the Suffolk County -- 25 the Republican leader of the Suffolk County 1 Legislature. 2 Thank you, John. 3 [Applause.] 4 SENATOR BOYLE: Importantly, as we, members 5 of the task force, look at the heroin epidemic, we 6 have to focus on three things, in my opinion: 7 We have to focus on prevention, to stop our 8 kids from ever trying heroin and other opiates; 9 Treatment for those people who are addicted, 10 and the stories we heard about, multiple times, 11 trying to get treatment and get help, and not being 12 able to get in. 13 I think one of the things we'll talk about 14 is, perhaps, Senator Hannon's bill on insurance 15 coverage during the course of the day. 16 And also, of course, criminal penalties: 17 increasing the penalties. 18 We're not going back to the Rockefeller drug 19 laws, but we need to increase the penalties on 20 heroin and opiate dealers that we're looking at 21 right now. 22 'Cause I can tell you, there was a recent 23 story in the paper in our area: One dealer was 24 caught with 864 bags of heroin, but it's not a 25 felony. 1 Don't ask me how that is the case, but we 2 need to change the laws and we need to make it 3 tougher so these drug dealers cannot harm our 4 children and our families. 5 Even -- I was recently -- I don't know if you 6 saw the press conference last week about a major 7 drug -- heroin bust in Holtsville? 8 I was with District Attorney Spota on that. 9 And even Tom Spota, a great prosecutor, and 10 the top law enforcement -- top prosecutor in 11 Suffolk County, obviously, he said: We cannot 12 arrest our way out of this epidemic. 13 It's true. 14 We need to focus on prevention and treatment, 15 as well as law enforcement. 16 I'd like to introduce the other members of 17 our task force. 18 My colleague Senator John Flanagan. 19 John, thank you for coming. 20 [Applause.] 21 SENATOR BOYLE: Also, 22 Senator Carl Marcellino. 23 Carl, thank you for coming. 24 [Applause.] 25 SENATOR BOYLE: And the Chair of the Senate 1 Health Committee, Senator Kemp Hannon. 2 Thank you very much, Kemp. 3 [Applause.] 4 SENATOR BOYLE: And our moderator today, a 5 leader in the Senate, and a leader fighting this 6 heroin epidemic in the Long Island community, is my 7 colleague from Nassau County, I turn it over to, 8 Senator Jack Martins. 9 Thank you, Jack. 10 [Applause.] 11 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 12 Good morning, everyone. 13 (The audience says, "Good morning.") 14 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you for joining us 15 today on this incredibly important topic. 16 You know, I've relayed this story before. 17 Just a couple years ago, I had an opportunity 18 to be in one of the communities that I represent, a 19 suburban community on the north shore of Long Island 20 in Nassau County, and we talked about opioid abuse 21 and heroin abuse. 22 And I was told, point blank, by this parent 23 group, that: That doesn't happen in my community. 24 You know, our kids have a problem with alcohol, 25 maybe a little bit of marijuana. But, you know, 1 opioids and heroin is not an issue in our suburban 2 community. 3 And I think, if you heard a topic and a theme 4 in our discussion thus far this morning, this is 5 particularly a suburban epidemic; and it is 6 particularly hitting our communities here in 7 Nassau County and Suffolk County. And it's about 8 time we did something about it. 9 [Applause.] 10 SENATOR MARTINS: You know, cheaper than a 11 pack of cigarettes, and deadlier than anything else 12 we've seen out there to date, we all know how 13 addictive these substances are. 14 Whether it's prescription, opioids, or 15 whether it's heroin, the fact that our kids can get 16 addicted on the very first dose should scare all of 17 us into a sense of reality. 18 And I want to thank the panelists who are 19 here today to participate in this discussion. 20 Here are some of the rules for today: 21 We're going to take the opportunity to 22 introduce all of our panelists, and then we're going 23 to get into some questions. 24 And, yes, we do have different facets of the 25 discussion here. 1 We have law enforcement. We have treatment. 2 We also have education. 3 And education, I think, is going to be our 4 path towards seeing this through, as we get our 5 schools and our school districts and our educators 6 involved in this discussion, and how do we begin to 7 address this holistically and bring it to the 8 surface. 9 It's about time we dealt with this in a very 10 real way. 11 So, we will have opportunities for questions 12 from the audience. I ask you to please consider 13 participating. 14 If you do have a question along the way, 15 raise your hand, someone will come to you. You'll 16 get an index card, fill it out, bring it up. And 17 we'll have an opportunity, then, to call on you at 18 some point during the session, so that we can have 19 that kind of active give-and-take that we're looking 20 for this morning. 21 So without further ado, I'm going to start by 22 asking, starting here on the top left corner of our 23 dais, Richard Buckman, who's the president of the 24 Long Island Recovery Association, to just briefly 25 introduce himself. 1 And then we can continue along the dais, and 2 then we'll continue again with Mr. Murr, until the 3 end of the dais, as well, so that we can then begin 4 our discussion. 5 Mr. Buckman. 6 RICHARD BUCKMAN: Sure. 7 Thank you, Senator Martins. 8 I'd like to thank Senator Boyle and the other 9 distinguished Senators for taking part in this very 10 important forum today. 11 My name's Richard Buckman, and the most 12 important thing I could say today, is that I'm a 13 person in long-term recovery from addiction since 14 August of 1988. 15 [Applause.] 16 RICHARD BUCKMAN: Thank you. 17 And I'd like to say that, in my estimation, 18 the reason I was able to be successful, and never 19 have a relapse since I started, was because I had 20 the opportunity to go to inpatient rehabilitation 21 for 28 days. 22 My insurance company paid for that. 23 We pay premiums for those kinds of things. 24 And, in my opinion, once again, I would not 25 be up here today, clean and sober nearly 26 years 1 later, if I didn't have that opportunity. 2 We have an opportunity now to do something to 3 change the law and impact that aspect. And I think 4 it's a highlight of what we're gonna talk about 5 today, hopefully. 6 And at the same time, I'm really excited that 7 everybody's here to talk about this, and we can come 8 out of here with a comprehensive way to address this 9 epidemic, not only here, but across the state. 10 We are charged with mobilizing people in 11 recovery statewide. 12 And I think you've been able to see that 13 we've been pretty successful with that, and we're 14 hoping to continue to contribute from that end. 15 Thank you very much. 16 [Applause.] 17 SENATOR BOYLE: Thank you. 18 DR. FRANK DOWLING: Thank you. 19 I'm Frank Dowling. I'm a psychiatric 20 physician with a practice in Suffolk County, and I'm 21 a counselor in the Medical Society of the State of 22 New York, and very active in the New York State 23 Psychiatric Association, and the New York State 24 Society for Addiction Medicine. 25 And I -- I, as well, want to thank 1 Senator Boyle and the Task Force for having these 2 meetings. 3 And I think it's really important that people 4 understand, although the focus is heroin and other 5 opioid addictions, addiction, across the board, is a 6 societal problem, and has been for over 100 years, 7 and will remain a problem. 8 And if we really get a handle on heroin and 9 other opioids, some other drug is gonna fill in, 10 unless we do that, because there's always a buyer 11 and there's always a seller. 12 So, any solutions really have to be 13 multifaceted, and, it needs to start with education. 14 It needs to start with families, community groups, 15 schools. 16 It does need to happen better in physicians' 17 offices. 18 I'm gonna keep my comments very brief right 19 now, and, hopefully, more comes out in the 20 discussion, but, primary-care physicians need more 21 support, to be better trained, to be able to screen 22 and intervene for addictions. And that includes 23 pediatricians, family physicians, OB/GYNs, 24 internists, et cetera. 25 And then there does need to be more access to 1 services. There really need to be a lot more 2 services there to begin with. 3 And then, payers -- whether it's Medicare, 4 Medicaid, or private payers -- need to pay for it, 5 and need to pay for it when that person with 6 addiction has the opportunity and the wherewithal to 7 say: I think I need to do something about this. 8 We need more research to figure out what 9 really does work, because I could argue that every 10 single treatment strategy works or doesn't work, and 11 find a study to support it. 12 Everybody finds their own way through all 13 that. 14 And the Medical Society had been asking for 15 years for improvements to the prescription-drug 16 database. 17 We now have that with I-STOP, and we have to 18 look up every single person before we prescribe a 19 controlled medication. 20 From Department of Health, I've been told, 21 the director of bureau narcotic enforcement, that 22 we're seeing a 75 percent drop in prescription-drug 23 doc shopping. 24 Heroin is rising faster because of that. 25 But it's important that everyone understand, 1 heroin first rose in the '90s, and never went away. 2 It started before the prescription-drug epidemic, 3 and never left. And now that we're getting a handle 4 on the prescription drugs, and have more to do, 5 heroin may be rising more, but it's part of the same 6 problem. 7 So, the Medical Society is still happy to 8 continue to work with everyone in this room and the 9 Legislature, to see if we can come up with some 10 solutions to bring forth this year. 11 One of them that's already passed the Senate 12 is legislation for Naloxone, which is an opioid 13 blocker that can reverse an overdose, and it can be 14 given intravenously, by intramuscular injection, or 15 even intranasally. 16 And non-medical people have been trained in 17 pilot programs to give it. And that's something 18 that we support very much, is the expansion of that. 19 There's some details in the wording of 20 legislation, that we can talk about another time. 21 And, I want to make it clear: Some people 22 misunderstand and think, if that's available, people 23 will be encouraged to use more. 24 I understand that question, but there's no 25 data to support that whatsoever. 1 People who use are at high risk for overdose, 2 especially with heroin, and high risk for accidental 3 overdose, death, and suicide death. 4 If Naloxone can be given and can reverse that 5 potential death, that person has, with the current 6 broken system and lack of access to care, about a 7 10 percent chance of getting into treatment in the 8 next 30 days. 9 I'll take that 10 percent and build from 10 there. That's 100 lives saved, 10 get into 11 treatment. 12 Let's get it up to 50 or 60, or even 100 out 13 of 100. 14 And I'll thank you, and I'll stop there. 15 SENATOR MARTINS: I appreciate that. 16 Thank you very much, Doctor. 17 [Applause.] 18 SENATOR MARTINS: I'll tell you what, why 19 don't we get through our panel. We'll make our 20 introductions, brief introductory statements, 21 because this give-and-take is exactly what we have 22 to come back to, and it's going to be part of our, 23 I guess, global discussions, and perhaps some of our 24 interaction with the audience. 25 So, please, continue. 1 JUDITH RAIMONDI: Good morning. 2 My name is Judy Raimondi, and I am the 3 president and founder of the Lindenhurst Community 4 Cares Coalition. 5 I want to thank Senator Phil Boyle for 6 including me today, and supporting our coalition. 7 The LCC's mission is to bring the 8 Lindenhurst community together in a united approach 9 against the alcohol and substance-abuse problem 10 plaguing our neighborhoods. 11 Our strategy is to raise awareness, 12 knowledge, and education, targeted to prevent 13 underaged drinking and substance abuse. 14 The strength of the strategy lies in the 15 number of community members willing to take a stand 16 for the health and wellbeing of our young people. 17 The goal is a well-informed and empowered 18 community committed to a healthy and drug-free 19 Lindenhurst. 20 The formation of my dedication to the LCC 21 started a year ago, when I became aware that, my 22 16-year-old daughter Victoria, her friend 23 Sarah [ph.] was using heroin. 24 This information scared and enraged me, and 25 triggered my protective instincts for my daughter, 1 for her friends, my family, and my community. 2 And as a result -- as a resident of 3 Lindenhurst for six years, a dedicated parent, and a 4 successful business person, I knew I had to do 5 something. 6 You want me to stop there? 7 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. I appreciate 8 that. 9 Thank you very much. 10 JUDITH RAIMONDI: Okay, you got it. 11 TOM WILLDIGG: Hi, I'm Tom Willdigg. I'm now 12 a presently retired Nassau County detective, after 13 41 years of service: 31 of them as a detective, 14 8 as the union president for Nassau detectives, and 15 3 of them as the president of the New York State 16 Association of PBAs. 17 It's an honor to serve on this dais. 18 Thank you, Senator Boyle. 19 Thank you, Senator Skelos, who's not here. 20 It's also an honor to serve with my boyhood 21 friend Art Murr, who lost his son to heroin 22 addiction. 23 Addiction is a driving force for almost every 24 underlying -- for every major crime that occurs, up 25 to and including murder. 1 2007, I remember being at a union meeting, 2 and one of my delegates from narcotics said: You 3 can't throw a rock in [unintelligible], Seaford, or 4 Massapequa without hitting somebody using it or 5 dealing it. 6 With that, we went to the legislators. 7 We were very proactive in legislation 8 locally; 9 We dealt with the Nassau contingency, mostly, 10 Senator Marcellino, Senator Hannon, Senator Martins; 11 Upstate, as the New York State Association of 12 PBAs. 13 And we were pretty active in getting more 14 stringent drug laws. 15 Again, I have to agree with everybody at the 16 dais: It doesn't -- it's not about locking them up. 17 It's about educating them, and educating them all 18 the way down until they -- when they first get into 19 school. 20 It's all about education. 21 You don't want to end up on our side. 22 Thank you. 23 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 24 [Applause.] 25 DR. JAMES DOLAN: Hello, I'm Dr. Jim Dolan. 1 I'm the director of the Nassau County Office of 2 Mental Health, Chemical Dependency and Developmental 3 Disability Services. 4 Thank you, Senator Boyle, for inviting me 5 here today. 6 And thank you to the rest of the Senators and 7 all involved in this important effort. 8 Humans have been using one substance or 9 another since the beginning of recorded history. 10 Unfortunately, this often leads to substance abuse 11 that has dampened human potential and destroyed 12 lives. 13 Those most likely to experience the adverse 14 consequences of substance use are individuals with 15 mental illness, or people with typical levels of 16 depression or anxiety that is exacerbated by the 17 substance abuse. 18 Substance abuse is a biologically-based 19 disease that coincides with mental-health issues. 20 This is important to know, because it moves 21 us from the inaccurate understanding that 22 substance-use disorders can be separated from 23 mental-health concerns. 24 The best-practice treatment is to address 25 substance-abuse and mental-health issues 1 simultaneously. 2 However, oftentimes, that does not occur, 3 with the result being the delivery of care that is 4 less than one deserves. 5 Therefore, as the prevalence of addictive 6 disorders remains a pressing problem, we must 7 deliver the type of care that is most likely to 8 promote recovery. 9 The type of care that I am referencing is 10 known as "integrated care." 11 To "integrate care" means that one's drug, 12 alcohol, and mental-health concerns are treated 13 together, and one's physical health-care needs are 14 incorporated into the same treatment plan. 15 This treatment approach is necessary because 16 mental-health issues almost always accompany a 17 substance-abusing condition. 18 This is the case when the person with mental 19 illness abuses a substance to obtain relief from 20 their psychiatric symptoms, and when the person 21 undiagnosed with mental illness finds that their 22 underlying feelings of depression or anxiety are 23 ultimately worsened by the substance abuse. 24 Research findings also show that adults 25 experiencing any mental illness were more than 1 three times as likely to have a substance-use 2 disorder. 3 Children with depression are three times as 4 likely to have used an illicit drug. 5 And those with mental-health disorders are 6 more likely to be prescribed opioids for chronic 7 pain, and 2.4 times more likely to become 8 long-time -- long-term opioid users. 9 It is also noteworthy, that three-quarters of 10 mental illnesses emerge by age 24, but fewer than 11 one in five youths with diagnoseable problems 12 receive treatment; therefore, the likelihood that 13 someone with untreated mental-health concerns will 14 turn to substance abuse for self-medication purposes 15 is very high. 16 In addition, when we look at the high relapse 17 rates among those who abuse substances, we must 18 recognize that, without the substance, the person 19 may lack the psychological stability or coping 20 skills that are needed to maintain sobriety. 21 This all means that, while substance-abuse 22 and mental-health treatments have been effective in 23 many cases, the full potential of the treatment 24 intervention is not attained unless the 25 substance-abuse and mental-health care is integrated 1 and is coupled with the provision of physical health 2 care. 3 The reference to physical health care is made 4 because we know that, when people are accepting of 5 behavioral health care, it is the behavioral 6 health-care setting that becomes the person's 7 medical home. 8 And this provides us with the opportunity to 9 combine behavioral-health treatment with physical 10 health care, which may not be utilized unless it is 11 co-located with the behavioral-health service. 12 So, the implication of my comments are that, 13 we must move away from the inefficient siloed 14 approach to care, where one's substance-abuse, 15 mental-health, and physical health-care services are 16 delivered in three separate venues, in a manner 17 suggesting that we are able to divide the person 18 into three separate components. 19 Implementing the integrated-care approach 20 means that services are to be delivered at a single 21 location, practitioners are trained to treat the 22 substance-abuse and mental-health conditions 23 simultaneously, and State oversight bodies integrate 24 their regulations and funding streams in ways that 25 promote, rather than frustrate, integrated-care 1 delivery efforts. 2 Thank you. 3 [Applause.] 4 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you, Dr. Dolan. 5 ROBERT EWALD: My name is Robert Ewald. I am 6 the bureau chief of narcotics in the Suffolk County 7 District Attorney's Office, and I am here on behalf 8 of Tom Spota, the District Attorney. 9 We fully agree, and I've heard it very 10 eloquently said already, that there are three 11 components here that need to be combined: It's the 12 education, the treatment, as well as the 13 enforcement. 14 It's none of them by themselves, and other 15 people have spoken very well about that. 16 The one thing I will add at this point, is 17 that, for over 30 years dealing in narcotics, which 18 is where I have been, I've seen drug patterns 19 change, societal groups shift back and forth with 20 who's got a favorite for whatever drug, and so 21 forth. 22 And the end to the story is here: Whatever 23 collaborative effort comes out among those three 24 components, it is incumbent, for our own 25 preservation as a community, that us as panelists, 1 that all of you who have taken the time to come 2 here, and the press, must help spread this: That 3 this is a collaborative effort, and all three 4 components have to be supported; or else, in the 5 end, we'll end up with apathy, we'll end up with 6 these components being split up, and we will not 7 accomplish effectively what we want to, which is our 8 preservation and fruitfulness in the community. 9 [Applause.] 10 SENATOR MARTINS: Ms. Brown. 11 KATHY BROWN: Good morning. 12 I'm Kathy Brown. I'm the director of 13 Chemical Dependence Services for Catholic Charities. 14 I was the nurse manager at the crisis center 15 in Suffolk County for 25 years, and of the thousands 16 of people that I assessed for admission, not one of 17 them said to me: You know, I woke up one day and 18 decided I wanted the disease of addiction, and 19 I want to be an addict. 20 As a nurse, I also treated people with cancer 21 over the years, and not one of them also said to me: 22 I want the disease of cancer. 23 And, yet, we respond to these two diseases so 24 differently. 25 You don't hear communities saying: Cancer 1 isn't in our neighborhood. 2 But we do hear people saying: Drug addiction 3 is not in our neighborhood. 4 There's a stigma attached to this disease, 5 and we all need to work together, to reduce, to 6 eliminate, that stigma. 7 It's only then that we all work together. 8 It's only then that we can support those who 9 are fighting this disease, living with this disease, 10 that they can come out and say, "I need help." 11 We need to work together. 12 And I'm glad we're all here together, from 13 all the different disciplines, because, as I said: 14 A person doesn't choose to have this disease, but we 15 need to work together to convince them to treat the 16 disease. 17 Thank you. 18 [Applause.] 19 RENE FEITCHER: I'm Rene Feitcher, I'm an 20 assistant DA. I direct community affairs for the 21 Nassau DA's Office, under Kathleen Rice. 22 I'm also here as the chairman of the 23 Nassau County Heroin Prevention Task Force, which 24 I'm pleased to see many members are up here on the 25 panel, and in the audience. 1 I want to thank, Senator Boyle, and your -- 2 other Senators, for putting together this task 3 force. 4 And I also want to express my celebration of 5 Shanna's and Jason's victory. 6 And, also, my condolences on the loss of 7 Matt. 8 Now, that's why we're here. 9 I've been doing this since 1975, when the 10 first wave of heroin came around. 11 I lost my younger brother to heroin 12 addiction. 13 I counted, recently, five people from the 14 family gone at this point. 15 And it was really a shock, when I came over 16 to the DA's office, to find that heroin was back. 17 I said: How could that have happened? 18 Didn't they know it was a bad thing? I thought we 19 were done with that. There'd be some new drug to 20 battle, but not heroin. 21 But, of course, we forgot about the 22 prescription drugs. And, we forgot that it's 23 cheaper and it's easier to get, and it's being 24 pumped, and it isn't -- it isn't a ghetto effort. 25 It's not that at all. 1 It's a middle-class, upper middle-class, 2 problem. 3 And that's actually the good news, because 4 it's in the news, and we're doing something about 5 it. 6 Now, most people say they're pretty broke. 7 So over at the DA's office we also agree with 8 the slogan: That you can't arrest your way out of 9 it. 10 Well, you do have to do some arresting. 11 There's no doubt about it. 12 There's predators out there, there's 13 "merchants of death" out there, that you have to 14 deal with. 15 But the addict is often the victim, and the 16 addict needs to get into treatment. And sometimes 17 coercion works to get a person into treatment. 18 And, it's for that reason that we believe 19 strongly in the diversion programs. 20 The drug court, TASK, the adolescent 21 diversion programs...all those are good vehicles. 22 I feel terrible that, you know, Shanna, you 23 didn't get into it through the proper door, but I'm 24 glad that you're doing so well with it now. 25 So our message is, really: That we want to 1 see a strong investment in those preventive 2 services. 3 Youth services really need a lot of help. 4 They need the money. 5 The drug and alcohol agencies need the money. 6 Our college students should be hired right 7 away into those programs. Who else but them can 8 talk to their peers better? 9 So we want that to be done. 10 We want the insurance laws to be changed, as 11 well. 12 We salute Senator Hannon's bill, that would 13 prevent -- would actually help get the insurance 14 policies to be more responsive; to have quicker 15 doors into treatment. 16 And we also salute the new laws that are 17 gonna allow Narcan to be disseminated much more 18 broadly. 19 I thought it was skeptical. 20 Who's gonna come across somebody having an 21 OD? 22 Well, actually, it's the families of the 23 people who have relapsed time and time and time 24 again. They will; they need it. 25 So our police have done a great job with it. 1 And, thanks to the Attorney General, it's a 2 good thing. 3 And I think that, if we can get it out -- the 4 Narcan out to more people, as a coalition, as Eden 5 and Detective Stark and some of the others have been 6 doing. 7 So, I'll be quiet, because I know it's short, 8 but thank you so much for this opportunity. 9 And thank you for being here. 10 [Applause.] 11 SENATOR MARTINS: Back to this side, Mr. and 12 Mrs. Murr. 13 ARTHUR MURR: Hi. Again, my name is Art 14 Murr. My wife, Denise. 15 We represent the parents. 16 I have to say, it's -- I mean, I'm so 17 grateful that Tom told me about this, and was 18 helping -- helped to get me onto this panel. 19 The fact that what I'm hearing is one of the 20 first times I'm actually hearing people talk about 21 treating this holistically. 22 About not looking at this and saying: We 23 have to arrest them. 24 Not looking at this and saying: Well, you 25 know, you have to just put them in treatment. 1 Or, it's not in my community, and there's 2 nothing to do with education. 3 This has got to do with everything. 4 And seeing this panel, and seeing all you 5 here, means that somebody's listening to this; 6 somebody's trying to understand. 7 And we have a very good opportunity at this 8 point to make change, and to make things happen. 9 I used to tell people -- I used to see 10 people, and I -- you know, and like when you tell 11 your story, or, worse, somebody would come up to me 12 and say -- who hadn't seen me in a long time, and 13 say, "Hey, how's Matt?" 14 And I'd stop, and I'd say it, and they'd look 15 at me. 16 And I would say: Yeah, that's a 17 conversation-stopper. "How's your family?" 18 They were relieved, and just went on about 19 their family. 20 They obviously felt bad about what happened, 21 but they just had no words. They couldn't figure 22 out what to say. 23 So, I started asking a question. 24 I used to ask people: So, do you know 25 somebody who has a problem with substance abuse? 1 And people would say: No. 2 And I would say: Think again. Do you know 3 somebody who has a problem with substance abuse? 4 And almost everyone would say: Yes. 5 I've changed that. 6 I now say to people: How many people do you 7 know who have problems with substance abuse? 8 And they'd say: One. 9 And I'd say: Well, uhm, you know me, so 10 that's two. How many more you gonna find out? 11 And they'd stop, and they'd think, and they'd 12 once again say: Right, there's a lot. 13 I said: It's maddening. 14 It's madness about what's going on. It's got 15 to stop. 16 This panel, I just -- you have no idea how 17 I feel about the idea that this is what's going on. 18 You've got to stop the shame. You have to 19 stop the stigma. 20 You gotta talk about the success stories that 21 are out there, because there are success stories out 22 there. There's lots of people. 23 Lots of famous people, in all walks of 24 life -- business, entertainment, politicians -- who 25 are successful, and had -- and had a substance-abuse 1 issue, who are in long-term recovery, and they're 2 very successful. 3 They need to speak up. You need to have role 4 models. 5 Without role models, people just look at it 6 and they go: Well, that's just me. It's just me. 7 No, no, no, that person out there has it. 8 You need to have that happen. 9 So, again, just, thank you, everybody, for 10 having the panel. 11 [Applause.] 12 DENISE MURR: Denise Murr, Matthew's mom. 13 I'm a retired special-ed teacher, so 14 education is really important to me. 15 I just find -- I've been asking the 16 high schools: How long do you speak about drugs? 17 One week. And sometimes they have a speaker 18 come in to the auditorium. 19 That's just not enough. 20 I mean, we all know that. It's not enough. 21 The other thing that I would like to mention 22 is the rehabs, the facilities. 23 My son was recommended to stay a certain 24 period of time. We had a very nice duly certified 25 psychiatrist working along with him, and he was 1 suggested to stay a certain period of time. 2 One facility released him, because his 3 counselor had hit one of the residents in the head, 4 so they were reorganizing, and they felt Matt was 5 ready to go home. 6 So, he came home to us. 7 Another facility, it had gotten very 8 dangerous. Drugs had come into the facility, and 9 the guys were beating up on each other, or whatever, 10 I don't know. But, he wasn't a troublemaker, so 11 they said he should leave. 12 His psychiatrist had said, and we all agreed, 13 including Matt, that he should be there for 14 15 months. And they released him after eight, 15 saying it was too dangerous for him to be there. 16 I just feel there has to be some more 17 supervision of the rehabs. Maybe they should be 18 overseen by someone, but, these things can't happen. 19 How is there gonna be rehabilitation when 20 they're sending them home, when they're not ready? 21 Thank you. 22 [Applause.] 23 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 24 ANTHONY RIZZUTO: Hi, everybody. 25 My name is Anthony Rizzuto. I work for 1 Seafield, and I'm the founder of FIST (Families in 2 Support of Treatment). 3 You know, I'm gonna try not to repeat. 4 There's been a lot of great things that have 5 been said already, and I really look forward to the 6 rest of the day. 7 And I want to thank Senator Boyle and the 8 rest of the Senators for giving me an opportunity to 9 share a couple of thoughts with you. 10 I'm gonna just take a look. 11 None of us need to be convinced that there's 12 an epidemic going on, and that our communities, our 13 families, our sons, our daughters, are -- are 14 dealing with situations that have really never been 15 seen to this extent. 16 You can't talk to too many 20-year-old -- 17 today, 20-year-olds that haven't -- don't know 18 somebody that has been exposed to this, and have 19 gone to at least five funerals. 20 So that one we can kind of put aside. 21 I think we're in agreement with that. 22 The issue that we're having is, that we have 23 a systemic problem, and this systemic problem needs 24 to be approached, as my colleagues said up here, 25 from many different areas. 1 We cannot just go and have one solution. 2 I think law enforcement does play a part, in 3 terms of helping to take away some of the supply. 4 We cannot allow that to just continue coming in the 5 way it comes in. 6 I think that, you know, when you're dealing 7 with an addiction which is a disease, it's a brain 8 disease, that we need to have treatment that's 9 available. 10 I think, in the long term -- because we have 11 a short-term solution to deal with the situation 12 that we're currently up against right now -- but if 13 we're gonna look down the road, we need to do some 14 prevention. 15 We need to start with our kids. We need to 16 implement prevention into our schools and start the 17 process, so we're not dealing with this 10, 15 years 18 down the road. 19 So I think there's many different sides to 20 this. 21 I'm gonna just to share with you where I am. 22 I have been a clinician now for the last, 23 about, 13 years. 24 And I will tell you that, along the lines of, 25 I believe it was Jason had mentioned, and Shanna had 1 mentioned, the frustrations of being a clinician and 2 having somebody come to you, and you do a 16-page 3 evaluation, and determine, a person reporting, you 4 know, using 15 bags of heroin a day intravenously, 5 and then trying to set up a treatment plan for them. 6 And hearing stuff like -- well, for instance, 7 in that scenario, the first thing I would want to do 8 is separate that person from the drug. And call up 9 the insurance companies and hear they don't meet 10 medical necessity. 11 Now just think about that for a second. 12 Somebody that you love and care about, who 13 you have been trying to get help for, forever, who 14 is not willing to accept it, was fighting with you 15 tooth and nail, and did not -- because inherent in 16 the disease is denial, so the first one that sees 17 the problem is not the person that struggles with 18 the problem. It's the people that love and care 19 about them, and they start trying to intervene, to 20 try and get them help. 21 And for some people, it takes many 22 consequences before they say "uncle", and they say, 23 Okay, I'm ready. I'll do whatever it takes. 24 That window of opportunity, as the Murrs 25 explained, is very short. Okay? 1 Being able to get them the help when that 2 window is open is essential. 3 On a regular basis, we call up to try and get 4 authorization, and we get denied access. 5 So, today, you can be a person using heroin 6 intravenously, 15 bags a day, and be told that you 7 don't meet medical necessity. 8 Digest that for a second. 9 How is that possible? 10 That is pathetic. 11 So, what's the outcome? 12 So the outcome is, that when a person can't 13 get the help, right, because, when a person decides 14 they want to get help, it's, either, I get help and 15 I deal with my withdrawals in a medical setting, and 16 I'm able to be able to get treatment here, or, 17 I have to continue getting high. 18 Because if you've ever seen anybody withdraw 19 from using a substantial amount of heroin or 20 pain killers, it's not a pretty sight; hence 21 pharmacy shootings, and hence all these things that 22 people are willing to do. 23 We have people that are criminals today that 24 had never committed a criminal act in their life 25 prior to getting involved in drugs and alcohol. 1 The last thing I'll say is, that's how FIST 2 came about; is trying to bring families together to 3 give families a voice. 4 And this issue, by the way, is not limited to 5 New York State. 6 Right after FIST was born, we got phone calls 7 from Florida, Connecticut, New Jersey, "Would you 8 come here?" 9 The idea is, to give those that don't have a 10 voice a voice. 11 And the whole idea behind FIST is, in unity 12 there is strength. 13 And there are a lot of families that are 14 yelling and screaming about what's happening, and it 15 seems like nobody's listening. 16 Well, the goal is to try and bring those 17 voices together and be able to make a change. 18 And I'm -- I can't help but talk about this 19 stigma and this shame, because I can't tell you how 20 many people are isolated because of the stigma and 21 shame, and don't realize -- I'll share this last 22 thing and I'll move on. 23 I run a family education series, and I had 24 two parents. I had a woman come in to speak, and 25 I had someone that was in the audience, and she went 1 over and said to her, you know, "You don't remember 2 me." 3 And, their kids played on the soccer field 4 together. Both of them were going through the same 5 thing at the same time. They were shoulder to 6 shoulder on the side of the field, and neither knew 7 what the other was going through. 8 That's because of shame, and that's because 9 of stigma. 10 So I'm going to do my little part to try and 11 do something towards shame and stigma. 12 My name is Anthony, and I am a person in 13 long-term recovery, for over 20 years, through the 14 grace of God, through a loving family, through a 15 12-step fellowship, and through treatment. I have 16 not had to use anything for over 20 years. 17 That's allowed me -- 18 [Applause.] 19 ANTHONY RIZZUTO: Thank you. 20 That's allowed me to be a father to my son. 21 It's allowed me to be a father to my daughter. It's 22 allowed me to be a husband to my wife. It's allowed 23 me to be a son to my parents. 24 Unless we start doing this, the only thing 25 that people know about addiction is all of the 1 ugliness of it. 2 So it is imperative, I reach out to my 3 brothers and sisters that struggle with the same 4 illness, let people know, "we count." 5 Thank you. 6 [Applause.] 7 JOHN VENZA: Good morning, ladies and 8 gentlemen. 9 My name is John Venza. I'm the 10 vice president, Adolescent Services for Outreach. 11 I'd like to thank Senator Boyle and the rest 12 of the Senators and Task Force for convening this 13 important panel discussion today, and around the 14 state, particularly for those young people and 15 families in all of our communities. 16 As vice president of a non-profit 17 organization and outreach that helps address the 18 issues stemming from drug and alcohol abuse, I have 19 a front-line perspective to the destructive 20 consequences opiate use has had on our young people. 21 Many recent discussions concerning opiate use 22 and young people has appropriately focused on the 23 transitional-age youth, 18 to 25 years of age. 24 Unfortunately, I am witnessing another trend 25 emerging out of the opiate crisis. I want to assert 1 that Outreach is treating an alarming number of 2 adolescents, 17 and under, for use of opioids and 3 heroin. 4 A short while back I shared about the 5 13-year-old female from Suffolk County in treatment 6 at Outreach House who became heroin-involved. 7 Understandably, this case continues to 8 unnerve people when I mention it. 9 Today I want to open by again mentioning the 10 high school-age opioid and heroin users. 11 At Outreach, we are treating the largest 12 number of opioid-involved teens in the agency's 13 34-year history. 14 As of last week, approximately 50 percent of 15 the teenagers at Outreach House were 16 opiate-involved, and many heroin-addicted. 17 Lives are being ruined, children are dying, 18 as the opioid crisis now has a foothold in the 19 13-to-17-year-old population. 20 I look forward to the discussion we're 21 beginning here today on Long Island, and the lively 22 dialogue that will set us on the way to a meaningful 23 action agenda to stem this emerging tide. 24 Thank you. 25 [Applause.] 1 KYM LAUBE: Good morning. My name is 2 Kym Laube. I am the executive director of HUGS, the 3 president of the Quality Consortium of 4 Suffolk County. I also serve on statewide task 5 forces. 6 It is my pleasure to be here. 7 My primary role is in prevention, so every 8 time these folks are mentioning education and 9 prevention, my heart is skipping a beat, and I'm 10 getting really excited, because that's where this 11 dialogue -- uhm, that must be part of the dialogue 12 that we're having. 13 Young people are protected by four different 14 places: The individual and their peer groups, their 15 school groups, their family groups, and their 16 community groups. 17 And those are the four areas we must focus 18 on; that sound prevention is happening in every one 19 of those areas. 20 We also need to make sure that we begin the 21 dialogue of substance abuse, and look at it as 22 health policy, the same as we look at washing hands, 23 wearing seat belts, using sun block; that this is 24 part of a disease we're trying to prevent, and it 25 needs to be, just simply, that part of the dialogue 1 that starts early on, long before even kids hit 2 high school. That this is really family policy that 3 gets established. 4 In following the suits of my colleagues who 5 I respect and admire, I also love to share that the 6 fact that I got sober before it was even legal for 7 me to drink, when I was 20 years old. 8 And for those of you who are trying to figure 9 out the math, I just turned 45, so I'll keep it 10 really simple on you. 11 [Laughter.] 12 [Applause.] 13 KYM LAUBE: And I share that. It's not 14 something I generally share in public, in a venue 15 like this, but in the spirit of today, it is 16 important. 17 So I look forward for the opportunity to talk 18 about this, to talk about prevention, to talk about 19 all the different strategies we can put in place. 20 We were here not so long ago when we had the 21 first hearing; that Senator Boyle held the first 22 hearing. 23 It's awesome that the audience numbers have 24 probably quadrupled, in my guesstimate. 25 And that's awesome, and that means we're 1 paying attention, folks. 2 So, now -- we now know the now -- the 3 "So what?" 4 Now we need to face and look at the 5 "Now what?" What are we going to do now? 6 Thanks for the opportunity to join in the 7 dialogue. 8 [Applause.] 9 STEVE MARGOLIES: Good morning. My name is 10 Steve Margolies. I'm the vice president and 11 medical director of the New York Region of 12 Phoenix House. 13 First, I'd like to thank Senator Boyle and 14 his esteemed colleagues for inviting us to 15 participate in this event, and I think this is a 16 great start. I think we're really moving in the 17 right direction. 18 I've been treating addiction in my career 19 for -- in most of my career as a physician. 20 And, if you look at the extent of the 21 epidemic, as where it is right now, if you add up 22 all the previous drug-abuse and substance-abuse 23 epidemics in the United States, from the '70s heroin 24 epidemic and the crack cocaine epidemic in the 25 '80s, it does not equal to half of what's going on 1 today. You can look at the sheer numbers. It's 2 actually on par with, and surpassing, HIV/AIDS right 3 now. 4 The National Institute on Drug Abuse is 5 estimating that there's 23 million Americans who 6 would qualify for a substance-abuse disorder; 7 however, 7 to 10 percent are actually accessing 8 treatment. 9 And in my -- to me, that's an unacceptable. 10 If you look at how people access treatment, 11 this is a multifactorial system that needs to be 12 developed. We need to partner with law enforcement, 13 with schools, with primary-care physicians. 14 There isn't anybody in this country who's not 15 affected by substance abuse in one way or another. 16 And I think, until we look at meeting people 17 where they are, rather than waiting for them to be 18 referred to us because something happened, we're 19 really not affecting on this problem as well as we 20 should be. 21 For Phoenix House, we've seen an immense 22 increase in the opiate use, especially in 23 Long Island, and it's all starting in the same 24 place. This is a new demographic for 25 substance-abuse treatment. 1 In the past, it was sort of concentrated in 2 the inner cities, and now we are seeing suburban, 3 middle-class, and upper middle-class coming in, all 4 starting with the same story: Everyone is starting 5 using prescription drugs, and switching to heroin 6 when they can't afford it. 7 I think that we've made some good steps with 8 I-STOP, but I think the work really has to be done, 9 and it has to be done together. 10 And, again, thank you. 11 [Applause.] 12 DR. MICHAEL F. RING: Good morning. I'm 13 Michael Ring, and I'm superintendent of the 14 Rocky Point School District. 15 And I, too, want to thank Senator Boyle and 16 the Task Force for inviting me to be here today. 17 It's important to get the message out that 18 schools, just like everybody who's on this panel, 19 are on the front lines of this war and the everyday 20 battles that we fight. 21 And I'm glad to hear that everyone believes 22 that education is a key component of it, but within 23 education there's so much that we need to do, that's 24 what would normally be thought of as outside the 25 bounds of traditional education. 1 And, this is one of those areas. 2 And we in Rocky Point, with a very supportive 3 community, have been, I don't know if we're at the 4 forefront, but we're certainly up there, in terms of 5 being unique in how we're approaching the problems 6 in our community. 7 Senator Martins indicated earlier that this 8 isn't a problem just in certain places, and there 9 aren't certain communities that are immune to it. 10 And that in those communities, the kids smoke 11 cigarettes, which as you pointed out are more 12 expensive than some of these other substances, or 13 they just drink. 14 They don't. They're doing this as well. And 15 it's happening in every community. 16 Perhaps one of the things that makes 17 Rocky Point community and our board of education 18 unique, is that our head's not in the sand. 19 We see it, we see it for what it is, and 20 we're trying to address head-on. 21 We, too, look at the approach as being a 22 three-part approach: 23 Part one, of course, is education, and that's 24 what we're best at, but we need to get a lot better 25 at education on substance abuse; 1 The second part is prevention and 2 intervention; 3 And the third part is support and building 4 bridges. 5 And being here today is part of that building 6 bridges. And we need more of those bridges. 7 You've heard the theme over and over again 8 this morning about resources, and it does come down 9 to money, because we need to put soldiers on the 10 ground, we need boots on the ground, in terms of 11 fighting this battle. 12 In Rocky Point, when we looked at it, we 13 said: 14 This isn't something that's just Johnny's 15 problem, who's in eleventh grade, who we know is 16 involved with heroin, because Johnny's got a sister 17 who's in the middle school, and he's got a little 18 brother who's in the elementary school. And he's 19 out on the playground right now. He doesn't know 20 what life has in store for him. 21 Or, there's Sally, who's out there on the 22 playground. And Sally's parents are substance 23 abusers, and no one's dealing with Sally. 24 So our program is a K-to-12 integrated 25 program, and it takes a lot of resources. 1 And we've had a supportive community in terms 2 of those resources. 3 Last night, after a generally unexciting 4 board-of-education meeting, thankfully, I was home, 5 and I was reading a federal grant proposal that 6 we're getting ready to put in at the end of this 7 month, and it's for support for counseling, 8 including psychiatric, other mental-health 9 professionals, substance abuse. 10 And I think it's great, and we need those 11 funds. And I hope, out of all of the schools in the 12 country that apply, that we're one that is chosen. 13 But one of the things that went through my 14 mind as I'm reading it, is this is a 36-month grant, 15 and it has to be renewed each year during that 16 36-month period. 17 So, what if we get started and we can't keep 18 going? 19 And it came through my mind -- and I'm sort 20 of pleased to see Senator Flanagan here today, not 21 to put him on the spot, but as the head of -- 22 [Laughter.] 23 DR. MICHAEL F. RING: -- but as the head of 24 Public Education Committee -- it strikes me that we 25 have categorical aid lines and expense-driven aid 1 lines in our State aid for a number of different 2 things. We really don't have one for this. 3 And a lot of schools don't have the resources 4 and they've cut programs like this. They're not 5 mandated, and we could cut them and save hundreds of 6 thousands of dollars a year, just to keep our 7 classrooms with teachers in them. 8 But, perhaps, a categorical aid or an 9 expense-driven aid that would be based on what 10 schools are doing, in terms of education, 11 intervention prevention, support, and building those 12 bridges, would give every school district, even 13 those that are in denial, the opportunity to do what 14 we're doing in Rocky Point. 15 And I thank you, and thank you for having me 16 here. 17 [Applause.] 18 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 19 I'm going to -- I'm gonna start on our -- on 20 everyone's right, with Sheriff DeMarco. 21 SHERIFF VINCENT DEMARCO: My name is 22 Vincent DeMarco, and as the Suffolk County Sheriff, 23 I have a unique perspective on the heroin epidemic 24 on Long Island. 25 Every day, I encounter drug-addicted 1 individuals at the Suffolk County Correctional 2 Facility, who are destined to years, and possibly a 3 lifetime, of cycling in and out of the criminal 4 justice system. 5 In fact, studies show that two-thirds of 6 substance abusers leaving jail or prison will return 7 within three years. 8 The cycle jeopardizes public safety, and 9 presents a heavy burden on taxpayers, small 10 businesses, families, and communities. 11 These are the same people robbing banks, 12 convenient stores, and pharmacies, burglarizing 13 homes, and creating the lure for drug cartels to 14 target our area. 15 I've often stated that we can't incarcerate 16 our way out of this drug epidemic and expect that it 17 will somehow make our communities safer. 18 The facts are: 19 That it costs county taxpayers $277 a day to 20 incarcerate someone. That's almost $100,000 per 21 inmate per year. 22 The cost of recent jail construction in 23 Suffolk will cost more than $255 million by the time 24 it's paid off in 2031, and that doesn't even include 25 another $150 million for upcoming State-mandated 1 jail-construction projects. 2 Policymakers from both sides of the political 3 spectrum need to come together to find 4 rehabilitative and preventive solutions that can 5 break the cycle of addiction and inmate recidivism. 6 "NBC News" is running a story this week 7 called "How To Fix Rehab." And what many experts in 8 the field are saying, is that there needs to be more 9 flexibility built into the existing treatment 10 models. 11 That might mean addressing educational 12 deficits, health-care and mental-health problems, 13 housing, and other issues, within a long-term 14 recovery environment. 15 This makes a lot of sense. 16 And because there's so much overlap between 17 the criminal justice and drug-treatment systems, 18 I think there needs to be a concerted effort among 19 policymakers to develop alternatives to 20 incarceration that will address the underlying 21 causes of addiction and crime. 22 Thank you for having me here today, Senators, 23 and I look forward to answering any questions 24 throughout the day. 25 [Applause.] 1 SENATOR MARTINS: Dr. Jeff Reynolds. 2 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Good morning. 3 My name is Dr. Jeffrey Reynolds. I'm the 4 executive director of the Long Island Council on 5 Alcoholism and Drug Dependence. 6 I want to thank Senator Boyle and the rest of 7 the delegation for holding this event. 8 It's ironic that I'm seated next to the 9 sheriff. 10 Can you guys hear me? 11 SENATOR MARTINS: Yes. 12 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Is that better? 13 Nobody told me. I sat up here -- 14 [Laughter.] 15 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: You lost all the good 16 stuff now. 17 [Laughter.] 18 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: I notice I'm seated 19 next to the sheriff. 20 I wonder if that's intentional? 21 I took an extra water. I'm sorry. 22 [Laughter.] 23 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: You know, I've done a 24 couple of these things before. We've been doing 25 them for many, many years, and I think we no longer 1 kind of question whether or not there's a crisis 2 or -- or an epidemic. 3 And I think one of the things that the 4 current crisis has done, is to put a spotlight on 5 all the preexisting conditions that led us to this 6 point in time. 7 Whether we're talking about our failures to 8 adequately prevent substance abuse, which seems to 9 grow exponentially over time. 10 We look at what's happening in schools, and, 11 perhaps, present company excluded, there's not 12 enough happening in Long Island school districts. 13 [Applause.] 14 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Good prevention isn't 15 throwing a thousand kids in an auditorium and having 16 a guy like me come and scare them. 17 [Laughter.] 18 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: It doesn't work. 19 And as we talk about the Core Curriculum and 20 high-stakes testing, we can't pit these two things 21 together, because we know kids who are drunk, high, 22 or dead of overdoses do lousy on standardized tests. 23 If we want them to do better -- 24 [Applause.] 25 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: -- let's treat their 1 needs. Let's meet them where they're at, and make 2 sure that we're doing what we should be doing on the 3 treatment front. 4 And a couple folks have talked about this: 5 The stuff insurance companies are doing today would 6 not be acceptable for any other disease. 7 It shouldn't be acceptable for addiction. 8 [Applause.] 9 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Our folks should not 10 be told they need to fail -- and the language is 11 intentional -- at outpatient treatment before they 12 get inpatient. Insurance companies then pay for 13 seven days worth of inpatient. 14 The person relapses, and they say: Whoop, it 15 didn't work. We're not paying for it again. 16 This has to stop. And it's the ultimate 17 cost-shift. 18 When the insurance companies say yes -- say 19 no, Vinnie DeMarco says yes. 20 When the insurance companies say no, our 21 medical examiners are saying yes. 22 And parents like the Murrs are left running 23 around in circles, looking for help. 24 That can't happen anymore. We need to stop 25 that. 1 The one thing we haven't talked a lot about 2 here, in terms of continuum or prevention access to 3 treatment and recovery: 4 You've got folks who go off to, perhaps, the 5 best treatment in the world. We get them early on 6 in the game and they go off to great treatment. 7 They come back after 28 days, if they're 8 lucky, and we throw them right back into the same 9 environment: the same family, the same friends, the 10 same dealers, the same school, the same communities, 11 that led them down the path in the first place. 12 And then we point a finger at them and say: 13 Why did you relapse? 14 We've got to build better support systems for 15 young people in recovery. 16 We remain the only major metropolitan area 17 without a recovery high school. 18 And though I believe that every school should 19 be a recovery school, the God's honest truth is, 20 they're not. 21 We remain one of the only major metropolitan 22 areas without a recovery center for young people. 23 That's got to change, too. We've got to make 24 sure that we're supporting these kids: lifting up 25 their stories and lifting up their lives. 1 You know, finally, when we think about the 2 other natural disasters, and that's how I look at 3 this, that have hit Long Island, including 4 "Hurricane Sandy"; in the wake of "Sandy," we all, 5 especially these guys to my right, stepped back and 6 said: 7 Why weren't we better prepared? 8 What do we need to do as individuals and 9 communities to make sure this devastation never 10 happens again? 11 And nobody was that worried about what it 12 would cost, quite frankly. We did what it took to 13 rebuild. 14 The same needs to go for this natural 15 disaster, so that we don't have more families 16 walking this road. 17 We need to take this as seriously as a 18 hurricane. It's wiping out families, left and 19 right. 20 So, thank you again for hosting this. 21 I appreciate the opportunity. 22 [Applause.] 23 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you, Dr. Reynolds. 24 Congratulations, and thank you to all of our 25 panelists. 1 I want to take the opportunity to give each 2 of our Task Force members also an opportunity to say 3 a few words before we get into the topics that we 4 have today. 5 We have a very ambitious agenda. 6 We'll go over the ground rules in a few 7 minutes, as far as the Q&A and the give-and-take. 8 We have a lot of passion here in the room. 9 Certainly, a lot of passion here amongst our 10 panelists. And I'm sure in the audience, as well. 11 But we do have, and would like to cover, each 12 and every one of these topics, so we're going to 13 start limiting our responses. 14 But before we get there, Senator Flanagan, as 15 was mentioned, Chair of our Senate Education 16 Committee. Certainly one of our leaders on 17 education issues statewide, and the go-to person in 18 the New York State Senate, if not the state, when it 19 comes to education. 20 Senator Flanagan, would you like to say a few 21 words? 22 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Yes, thank you. 23 It really is humbling to be sitting up here 24 with all these experts and professionals. 25 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: The microphone's off. 1 SENATOR FLANAGAN: I'm doing the same thing. 2 Okay. 3 Hi, I'm Dr. Jeff Reynolds. 4 I'm sorry -- 5 [Laughter.] 6 SENATOR FLANAGAN: I apologize. 7 It is humbling to be up here with all these 8 professionals and experts, and, equally, if not 9 more, humbling to be looking out at all the parents 10 and the family members out here, because, as people 11 are speaking, you know that you're engaged, when you 12 can see in the audience, the reaction, the human 13 reaction, from all the people that are here. 14 The human-interest stories, Shanna and Jason: 15 awesome. 16 That four-month-old baby must be absolutely 17 adorable. Congratulations. 18 And, I just want to speak to a very few brief 19 things. 20 I want to congratulate Senator Boyle. 21 This is ambitious, because I know I've 22 traveled around the state on education. 23 To do this type of work in such a tight time 24 period will be exemplary, in many ways. 25 Senator Hannon, he won't say this; I'll say 1 it on his behalf: I-STOP, he has been a champion. 2 And he is one of the few legitimate experts in the 3 Legislature. 4 So, from a policy level, he's as good as it 5 gets. And he is our -- 6 [Applause.] 7 SENATOR FLANAGAN: He is. 8 Then I think of people. 9 I just saw again today, Mrs. Ventorino [ph.] 10 from Kings Park, here, who I met in Albany; had some 11 meetings. 12 Her son passed, roughly, two years ago. And, 13 that, in itself is humbling. 14 Dr. Ring, the -- I'm going to say it flat 15 out. Okay? 16 I am Chair of the Senate Education Committee, 17 and there are many school districts across 18 Long Island that absolutely have their heads in the 19 sand. They don't want to recognize this problem. 20 They don't want to recognize this epidemic. And, 21 it's because of things, like, property values, and 22 no one wants the scourge of drugs or substance abuse 23 in their communities. 24 It's here. 25 And as Jeff said, we have many things that we 1 need to do, and be prepared. 2 If it's expense-based aid, so be it. 3 To me, probably the most effective thing, and 4 I'm by no means an expert, is peer-to-peer. 5 You get kids who can be leaders and group 6 leaders and semi-counselors in the high school and 7 the junior high school level, there is nothing more 8 effective. 9 No disrespect to our experts up here, but, 10 peer-to-peer seems, to me, to be one of the single 11 most important and effective things we can do. 12 So, I'm gratified to be amongst you, and 13 I appreciate the opportunity. 14 [Applause.] 15 SENATOR MARTINS: Senator Marcellino. 16 SENATOR MARCELLINO: (Turns on microphone.) 17 See, I listened and I learned. 18 [Laughter.] 19 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I'm also not exactly one 20 of the younger members of this group. 21 I've taught school for 20 years in the city 22 of New York: biology. 23 And when I started teaching in the early 24 '60s, I would stand out, because I was one of the 25 bigger guys in the building, so, they made me Dean 1 of Boys. 2 We could say that then. 3 Now have you to be Dean of Students, 4 politically correct. 5 But I was Dean of Boys then. 6 We had deans of girls, as well. 7 I would stand out in the hallway, and as the 8 kids walked by, "Hey, Mr. M," "Hiya, Mr. M"; 9 "Come here. Go in my office." 10 Fewer kids more, "Come here. Go in my 11 office." 12 One of the teachers would come up to me and 13 say: Why are you doing that? 14 I said: He's stoned. He's stoned. She's 15 stoned. It's as simple as that. And I'm not 16 letting them walk through the halls of this building 17 without getting ahold of their parents. 18 Some parents wanted to hear from us. 19 Some parents did not want to hear from us, it 20 was painfully obvious. 21 But, you did what had to do, and you did what 22 you could. And maybe we saved some lives; maybe we 23 lost some lives. 24 But we tried to inform and we tried to 25 educate, and we tried to do this. 1 So this scourge has been going on forever. 2 Someone asked: Why in the suburbs now? 3 It was a fellow by the name of Willie Sutton, 4 some years ago. He used to rob banks. 5 And I asked him: Why do you rob banks? 6 And he said: That's where the money is. 7 [Laughter.] 8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Well, the suburbs is 9 where the money is. 10 That's where the money is. 11 If you're gonna sell something, you want to 12 go where people have the money to buy what you want 13 to sell. 14 We have the money in the suburbs. 15 We run a program every once in a while, out 16 of my office, called "Shed the Meds," where we go 17 and we tell people: Bring us your unused 18 medication, all of it, and we'll take it from you. 19 And we always have a member of the 20 police department here, either Nassau County's 21 finest or Suffolk County's finest, sitting with us, 22 and they take the stuff. We bag it, they take it 23 away, and they dispose of it and destroy it. 24 We have never taken less than six 60-gallon 25 garbage bags full of pills, just by sitting out in 1 front of a firehouse, or whatever, and advertising 2 in a community: Just come in here, drop off your 3 unused, expired, unwanted medications. 4 One building, we picked twelve 60-gallon bags 5 of pills, that were disposed of by the 6 Suffolk County Police Department. 7 There's an awful lot of stuff that we have in 8 our homes. 9 Kids have parties with that stuff. 10 They take fists full of it, they bring them 11 to the party, they throw them in a jug, and then, 12 they grab a fistful and they take them, and see what 13 happens. 14 They don't know what they're taking. They 15 haven't got a clue. It's just from mom and dad's 16 medicine chest that they're grabbing this stuff. 17 So, what we can do, to a large extent, is 18 clear the crap out of your houses. Get rid of it. 19 Don't keep it around. 20 Don't flush it. We don't want it in our 21 water supply. 22 But dispose of it. 23 The police department will take it from you, 24 no questions asked. They'll remove it for you, and 25 dispose of it for you. 1 Every precinct has a place for it. 2 So I would suggest, that, go through your 3 medicine chests and deal with that right away, and 4 get rid of the stuff that's in your homes. 5 We have too much, just lying around. 6 If you need it, that's one thing, but make 7 sure you have it and count it. 8 When I travel, I take pills with me because 9 I need to take some. And I always keep them, and 10 I count them, so I know what I have. 11 And, in the morning, I count them again, to 12 make sure whoever came in and fixed the room up 13 didn't remove some of my pills, because I found that 14 they were doing that for a period of time. 15 So you never know what's going on. 16 The words here: Education. Information. 17 Interaction. 18 Talk to your children. Talk to them. 19 Kids, talk to your parents. Sometimes they 20 need education more than you do about this stuff. 21 Let them know what you know. 22 Engage in the conversation. 23 Not always pleasant. Sometimes there is a 24 little resistance on the part of the youngster. 25 That makes me think that maybe you should get 1 involved even more. Don't let them push you away. 2 And don't be easily removed from this situation. 3 I'm glad to hear the superintendent say, and 4 John knows it, as well as I do, that many districts 5 do have their heads in the sand and are in denial. 6 "We don't have a drug problem in the system." 7 "We don't have a drug problem in this 8 neighborhood." 9 Nobody wants to admit to it, but it's in 10 every neighborhood. We all know it. You all see 11 it. They all behind us treat it. 12 And, frankly, it's been going on too long. 13 It's time to end this, and time to bring it 14 to closure. 15 Legislation, we'll do. 16 We have bills on the table now. There are 17 bills in the Senate and in the Assembly. 18 There are laws that are passed, but they 19 don't mean much unless we all get involved in this. 20 This is not something someone else can do for 21 you. You have to do it, for your family, for 22 yourselves. 23 And we'll help, but, you're on the front 24 lines. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. 25 You're on the front lines. 1 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 2 [Applause.] 3 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you, 4 Senator Marcellino. 5 And, as a brief introduction to our next 6 panelist: 7 Senator Kemp Hannon, as has already been 8 mentioned, chairs Health in the New York State 9 Senate. 10 For those of you who may not know this, 11 Senator Hannon is the go-to person in New York State 12 when it come to health issues. 13 He's also among a handful of go-to people 14 nationwide, and experts, when it comes to health 15 issues. 16 And we're truly fortunate to have him, not 17 only as a resource here in New York State, but, 18 certainly, as a resource here on Long Island. 19 He is the architect behind I-STOP. 20 He is the architect behind efforts to take 21 that second step, which we all knew would be 22 necessary when we closed off access to prescription 23 drugs; that there would be a push towards an 24 increased use of illegal drugs: heroin. 25 And Kemp Hannon has been leading that fight, 1 introducing legislation, and keeping the issue on 2 the forefront of our state-policy initiative. 3 He is the person we all turn to on any issue 4 having to do with health. 5 And it truly is remarkable that we have him 6 right here with us, and available as a resource. 7 Senator Hannon. 8 [Applause.] 9 SENATOR HANNON: Thank you, Senator Martins. 10 And thank you to my colleagues who are here, 11 because, as all of you in this room have gone 12 through a personal circumstance in your families, 13 and your relatives and your friends, you've often 14 wanted to make sure that somebody was listening. 15 And, in a gradual way, the State has begun to 16 listen more and more as we've gone through this wave 17 of addiction. 18 Somebody before said: I was there at the 19 first wave in the '70s. 20 Well, it really predated that. 21 There was the whole methadone treatment 22 program for heroin addiction in the '60s. 23 So we've been fighting a long time, and 24 things come in into popularity and go out. 25 But, Senator Boyle, by your commitment to 1 this, and to your staff, gathering together so many 2 people who are key to moving forward, I think we've 3 taken a major step. 4 You'll have eleven more hearings to 5 illustrate how it's just not Long Island; how it's 6 in every community of the state. 7 And, unfortunately, it tends to be more in 8 the suburbs than in the inner city, or in the rural 9 areas than in the inner city, so we have a different 10 locus of our problem at the moment. 11 But, thank you, Senator Boyle. 12 The phrase that I use sometimes as a joke is: 13 I'm from government, I'm here to help you. 14 [Laughter.] 15 SENATOR HANNON: And you laugh, because you 16 should, because we're not the repository of 17 information. 18 And as you go through trying to formulate 19 policy in regard to treatment for health or 20 addiction or mental illness, you don't always have 21 the just-right answers, and that's why we have 22 persistent problems. 23 So, you're gonna have to be -- bear with me a 24 little bit, because I'll be a little pedantic about 25 the legislative process. 1 We just finished the budget a week ago. The 2 fourth year we did it on time. And it was a pretty 3 excruciating process for all of us, and pretty 4 time-consuming, not to say, probably the most 5 consuming was for Senator Flanagan, who's very happy 6 not to hear the phrase "Common Core" this morning. 7 [Laughter.] 8 SENATOR HANNON: But at the end of a process, 9 there's a lot of things that don't happen. Nothing 10 to do with here today. 11 But I often say: If we did something 12 legislatively or in the budget, the folks who are 13 interested in getting that enacted say, "What took 14 you so long?" 15 And if they didn't get it, they'll say, 16 "You're a bunch of bums." 17 So, we go through legislation as a meeting 18 place of ideas, a meeting place of concepts, trying 19 to figure out what's going to make things work the 20 best. 21 And sometimes we do, and sometimes we don't. 22 It's almost a decade ago that we passed the 23 legislation on Naloxone for the emergency medical 24 services, but I had no idea how effective it was, 25 until we heard some of the statistics from Suffolk, 1 and how many lives were saved. 2 And the next thing that started to become as 3 a phenomenon was the opioid drugs. 4 The simple statistic: In 10 years, by 2010, 5 New Yorkers were getting 21 million prescriptions a 6 year for opioid drugs. 7 21 million, without refills. And we only 8 have 19 1/2 million New Yorkers. 9 So, obviously -- and this was all a 10 phenomenon in the first decade of this century. It 11 really wasn't there in the 1990s. 12 And I can say that, because we did some work 13 on treatment of patients, and the attitude of 14 doctors towards treating patients with pain-relief 15 medicines. 16 So, we had to deal with this in a way, with 17 tracking who was prescribing, tracking who was 18 using, tracking who was dispensing. Trying to do it 19 as rapidly as possible, as accurately as possible. 20 Changing prescribing behavior patterns of 21 physicians. Mandating that, in a physician's 22 office, before a controlled substance was 23 prescribed, there had to be checking the database. 24 Same thing within the pharmacies. 25 We had a lot of things of behaviors to 1 change. And it took a large amount of cooperation 2 all over the place. 3 We really didn't have any villains to do it, 4 but it was a question of saying: Wait a minute, 5 opioids are not addictive-free. 6 And I started asking some of the doctors: 7 I bet you were sold by people from the pharmacy 8 companies, that you can prescribe this because 9 there's no downside. 10 And they started to say: Yeah, that's what 11 they came to us as. 12 I don't know that for a fact, but it was the 13 only reason to see this sharp escalation. 14 So, we passed I-STOP. It's about a year and 15 a half ago. We don't know how well it's working. 16 I'm told it's working fairly well, in terms 17 of tracking the doctor shopping. 18 Ironically, one of the parts that's not in 19 I-STOP was: How many pills do have you to prescribe 20 if you've had a tooth out? 21 Because now I start to hear, instead of 22 getting a month's supply of pain relief, you're 23 getting two or three or four days, which is 24 medically indicated as to what's appropriate. 25 So that's a behavior change that we're 1 starting to do; and, therefore, the medicine 2 cabinets, that Senator Marcellino spoke of, are 3 starting to decrease in being the source of supply. 4 And, obviously, we now have a problem with 5 heroin. And it started just before we did I-STOP. 6 I remember being in Massapequa, with the 7 Yes community group, and hearing this, and it was 8 just phenomenal. And then it started to replicate 9 itself as we had hearings in the rest of the state. 10 So we will, this week, next week, two weeks 11 from now, broaden the availability of Naloxone. 12 It's passed in the Senate already. 13 Yesterday it was reported out of the 14 Health Committee in the Assembly. 15 We'll be back in session in about two weeks. 16 And, hopefully, that will be worthwhile, so 17 that, if you're in a family and you have a concern, 18 because you have, one of your children or of your 19 siblings is susceptible, is an addict, or whatever, 20 you'll be able to have it in your house. 21 And the FDA, just the other day, talked about 22 an EpiPen type of thing that you can have. Fairly 23 safe. I don't know if it's safer, or not, than the 24 inhalant that you can now use, but it allows for a 25 broader use. 1 We expect to talk to the commissioner, which 2 groups are active in the drug-addiction prevention 3 programs, whether they can have that, 'cause this 4 will be allowed for the non-prescriptive use, 5 non-patient prescriptive use, of this drug. 6 In another sense: The legislation allows, 7 but the regulations do not yet, perhaps this will be 8 available through the pharmacies. 9 Obviously, a challenge to the pharmacies, but 10 this is not a drug -- as far as I know, and I'm 11 assured by Dr. Reynolds is the case -- this is not a 12 drug that leads to addiction, leads to a street 13 value, leads to some type of high. 14 We'll find out. 15 That's exactly what was said 40 years ago 16 about methadone. 17 To some extent, methadone, at the beginning, 18 had to be done, take your dose in front of the 19 doctor or nurse. 20 Now it's prescribed, and it allows many 21 people to lead very productive lives, and we don't 22 even know about it. 23 What's the next thing? 24 And by the way, as we were doing I-STOP, it 25 was -- this is what government can do for you -- it 1 occurred to me: We can have the best I-STOP 2 legislation in the world, but we're not going to 3 stop addiction. 4 So, we still have to keep -- that's a 5 continuing goal for all of us. 6 And when you do legislation, it's like 7 dropping a pebble into a still pond. There are 8 ripples, and you don't know what those ripples start 9 to show. 10 You'll find out. 11 You'll find out through roundtables like 12 this, because we don't -- we're not testifying at 13 each other. We're trying to compare notes, we're 14 trying find out things that are working. 15 Mr. Dolan up there, in his biography, says 16 he's involved with a health home. 17 One of the things we've started to do in this 18 state is to remove silos, and to not just look at 19 substance abuse as one silo, or even drug addiction 20 and alcohol as two silos. We're not looking at 21 mental health as just one silo, physical health 22 another silo. 23 We're trying to make a care coordination, and 24 it's very difficult to do. 25 I don't know that it's ever been totally 1 successful in the United States, but we're doing it 2 through the vehicle of managed care. 3 So, what, is that going to work? 4 We put $120 million in the budget for the 5 various social community-based treatment modalities, 6 that will be these health homes, be a medical home. 7 Try to say that the locus of treatment shall be in 8 the community. 9 Is it all there yet? No, but the State's 10 been moving on that in a large way. 11 So, we'll focus on having Naloxone more 12 widely available. 13 What will be a more lasting effect, will be 14 how we continue to treat those of us who we love so 15 much, in the community, a continuous treatment. 16 Are we going to face, "I don't have any space 17 in this treatment program"? "I don't have any 18 beds"? 19 I don't know all of that, but we certainly 20 are set in motion the approach to try to do that. 21 Now, when it comes to the next piece of 22 legislation that I have, is, get the insurance 23 companies to cover treatment. 24 Okay, we -- 25 [Applause.] 1 SENATOR HANNON: -- we can all beat up on the 2 insurance companies, but, they are us, because we 3 pay them. 4 And, ironically, the -- most of managed care 5 tends to use an insurance company. 6 And how do you get them to behave right? 7 It's groups like this who will start to say: 8 What's the best treatment modality? What is 9 evidence-based? What can we really push to get to 10 work? 11 And that, hopefully, will come out of the 12 Task Force report. 13 Senator Boyle, you have an awesome calendar 14 to do this report by the 1st of June, because that 15 only leaves us 2 1/2 weeks before the end of 16 session. 17 But that's the type of thing we'd like to get 18 done, try to move forward. 19 Just getting the insurance coverage doesn't 20 always solve the problem. 21 This morning I'm reading in my BlackBerry 22 here, all the things we're doing in health, but 23 there was a story in the Rochester paper, where the 24 Attorney General just fined an insurance company who 25 was not giving availability to mental-health 1 treatment, according to what we've done in federal 2 and state law. 3 Was not. 4 They just got fined $350,000. 5 That's a big deal in the insurance world. 6 So, just passing the statute, saying, mental 7 health gets equal treatment with physical health, 8 didn't solve the problem. 9 I remember a couple of years ago, the 10 chiropractors who got mandatory coverage about 11 10 years ago, 5 years in, they came into my office 12 one day and they were screaming. 13 Now, I had nothing to do with the original 14 bill. 15 But they said: The insurance companies have 16 made us write notes on all of our treatments, and 17 make reports on all of our treatments, and show that 18 what we're doing is effective. 19 I said: Well, that's kind of logical. 20 But, they were not happy about what the 21 changes had been. 22 So we need to figure out -- we need to take 23 the people who are providers in this panel, we need 24 to take other providers in the state, we need to 25 look nationally -- to see what's working. 1 Is it going to be nine months? I don't know. 2 Sometimes we've had some testimony from 3 folks, who, their only reason they got off, was 4 because they were thrown in jail for two months. 5 That's a terrible way to go about it, because 6 withdrawal is excruciatingly difficult and doesn't 7 always lead to success. 8 So we have a continuing obligation. 9 And, your input, your feedback, will be 10 totally welcomed. 11 And I hope that we can, from today, and the 12 other hearings, have some very solid, productive 13 proposals, to move forward. 14 Thank you. 15 [Applause.] 16 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you, Senator Hannon. 17 I just want to take the opportunity to 18 recognize two other officials, representatives, that 19 are here with us today. 20 We have Suffolk County Legislator Tom Cilmi, 21 who's here. 22 Tom, thanks for joining us. 23 [Applause.] 24 SENATOR MARTINS: As well as a representative 25 from Senator David Carlucci's Office, Evan Sullivan, 1 the Senator's Deputy Chief of Staff. 2 [Applause.] 3 SENATOR MARTINS: So let's get at it. 4 I've appreciated the comments, I appreciate 5 the insight, but let's get into a Q&A. 6 I'm going to ask that we keep our responses, 7 now, to 30 seconds, and there's a reason for that. 8 I know that we have questions. I have 9 questions that have been handed up already. 10 Bear with me. I want to get as many of these 11 in as we can. 12 And we're quickly approaching an hour where 13 we're supposed to take a break. 14 I'm going to take executive privilege and 15 extend it, so that we do get into these topics more 16 wholly, but I do want to have an opportunity, 17 certainly, to have more questions come up from the 18 audience, and be able to get to as many of our 19 panelists as we can. 20 And to start our discussion, which we'll 21 break down: 22 The first group having to do with civic 23 groups, I have a question for Judith Raimondi. 24 Let's begin with an important aspect of 25 combating this heroin epidemic; and that is, the 1 local community groups which are working diligently 2 to rid our towns of these harmful drugs. 3 As the president of Lindy Cares, can you give 4 us idea of the problem your town is facing, and some 5 of the steps you are taking to fix it. 6 JUDITH RAIMONDI: Sure, thank you. 7 Lindy Cares has been totally about a 8 community partnering up with all areas. 9 What we found so far, through different 10 activities, we have a heroin epidemic. 11 We have a -- parents allowing children to 12 drink under age. 13 We have not enough police in our area. 14 We have a school district that needs support, 15 and they're willing. That we have a lot of willing 16 people within our district, willing to start to look 17 at this problem. 18 So, Lindy Cares came together, invited 19 Phil Boyle; our mayor, Kevin McCaffrey. 20 We've worked with the superintendent and 21 business owners, to try to come together and talk 22 about prevention and education. 23 So, we hold forums, from parent-prevention 24 forums. 25 Kym Laube was there, and she was able to -- 1 she was really informative. 2 But, looking at signs and symptoms, we just 3 had our first Narcan training. Totally, you know, 4 important stuff for a community to have access to. 5 You know, the possibilities are endless, but 6 it really is important that partnering up, and the 7 community members coming forward and saying, 8 "I'm willing to help." 9 Currently, we have, like, five strong board 10 members that are just so dedicated to this 11 community. 12 And, we have a lot of -- we're working on 13 neighborhood watches. That was another really 14 important thing: our community wants more safety 15 within the community. 16 So, we're developing neighborhood watches on 17 different blocks. 18 SENATOR MARTINS: Well, I appreciate that. 19 You know, one of the themes that we heard, 20 not only from Shanna and from Jason, but from others 21 as we went through the panelists today, was, there 22 are introductions to drug abuse. There are entrees 23 to that in our communities. 24 And sometimes it starts with our own 25 attitudes at home as to what is permissible; whether 1 it's alcohol, whether it's marijuana, that there are 2 entrees into this, that sometimes we take for 3 granted. And that by being lax at the front end, 4 sometimes we're opening a doorway for things to 5 happen down the road. 6 Dr. Reynolds, I was wondering if you could 7 share some of your thoughts about, you know, the 8 concept of, you know, a lot of things that we're 9 hearing these days, specifically with regard to 10 marijuana around the country. You know, loosening 11 regulations and laws having to do with marijuana 12 use, and what that may have to do with longer-term 13 situations and drug abuse and addiction like this. 14 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Thanks for the 15 question. 16 You know, when we use words like "epidemic" 17 and "crisis," and we talk about opiates, and we talk 18 about heroin, I think it makes it easier for 19 parents, school districts, maybe even some of us, to 20 say, heroin and opiates are the serious stuff, and 21 alcohol and marijuana are somehow less serious in 22 this context. 23 And I think, for parents, any of us who work 24 with parents on a regular basis, hear time and time 25 again: I know he's drinking. I know he smokes pot 1 a lot. Thank God it's not heroin. 2 And I think part of what we need to do out of 3 this crisis, is begin to connect some of the dots; 4 to talk about underage drinking, marijuana use, and 5 what that means to -- to kind of the future. 6 I think the discussions around marijuana have 7 left young people with a sense that marijuana use is 8 not risky. 9 In fact, our own President suggests that it's 10 safer to smoke a joint than it is to drink a beer. 11 Those are the kind of conversations we're 12 having, and it works against everything we're trying 13 to do to educate our young people. 14 So, there's a direct connection. 15 I hope we can broaden the conversation and 16 talk about alcohol and marijuana use, and certainly 17 understand the impact that some of these policy 18 debates are having on young people and families. 19 SENATOR MARTINS: No, I appreciate that. And 20 I know we will get into that. There's a topic 21 further along in the day, where we'll be talking 22 about treatment recovery and prevention, and we can 23 get into this more specifically. 24 But, there is a common theme, not only in, 25 you know, the discussion we just had, but, the 1 insight that we got earlier, is that very few people 2 start by starting heroin, for the first time. There 3 are usually entrées into illegal drug use and 4 addiction that takes a different path. 5 And the attitudes we take as a society 6 earlier on, certainly have ramifications down the 7 road. 8 I have a question here -- or a point here, 9 that was handed up from a King's Park organization, 10 In The Know. "Kings Park In The Know." 11 And there's a representative here, 12 Maureen Rossi [ph.]? 13 MAUREEN ROSSI [ph.]: Yes. [Inaudible.] 14 SENATOR MARTINS: Well, do me a favor, come 15 on up. 16 MAUREEN ROSSI [ph.]: Okay. 17 SENATOR MARTINS: There's a microphone right 18 here. 19 And, another civic group that is working 20 locally in the community to address the issue. 21 And, I apologize. I would have brought the 22 mic to you. 23 MAUREEN ROSSI [ph.]: That's all right. 24 I just had my knee replaced. I'm sorry. 25 SENATOR MARTINS: No, no. Thank you. 1 MAUREEN ROSSI [ph.]: This is a challenge. 2 Hey, guys, thank you all for being here 3 today. 4 We've been on the front line for about 5 9 years now. We're just a small non-profit, and, we 6 work to shine a light on, and eradicate, the 7 region's opiate and heroin epidemic. 8 There are a lot of great points brought out 9 today, and, there is a threefold approach to this 10 problem, and you guys have reiterated it: 11 Law enforcement, arrest the dealers; 12 Treatment. You know, let's get rid of 13 obstacles to treatment. Let's get the sick kids 14 help; 15 And, prevention. 16 But, like everyone's saying, we cannot arrest 17 our way out of this epidemic, and we cannot 18 legislate our way out of this epidemic. 19 Prevention, prevention, prevention. 20 There is no coincidence that we have this 21 epidemic on Long Island. It's been 12 years since 22 we've have had prevention programs in our school 23 districts. 24 DARE was deemed ineffective about -- I think 25 it was about 12 years ago. 1 And there's no coincidence that our kids have 2 gone without prevention programs and we find 3 ourselves in this crisis. 4 I'm also a member of the press, so I've 5 interviewed some of you guys. 6 As a journalist, I knew we were in tough 7 shape, because I would read -- every day I would 8 read the crime and the obits. 9 And every day there would be, you know, 10 Brittany, 19, Sayville. You know, Brandon, 11 Massapequa. 12 Kids dying, quietly, on our tree-lined 13 streets in our well-performing school districts. 14 It was Long Island's dirty little the secret 15 for a long time, but the secret's out. 16 You know, we all obviously know, like you 17 guys said, we're in the midst of a crisis. 18 In the last decade, since we've kind of begun 19 this, depending on what numbers you have, you know, 20 opiate, opiate combined with heroin, we've lost 21 between two and three hundred young people under the 22 age of 25 every year. So in the last decade, we've 23 lost over 2,000 young people. 24 If someone came to Long Island and murdered 25 2,000 of our young people, it would be hunting 1 season. There would be vigilante groups in every 2 community. 3 Well, someone did come in and murder our 4 children. 5 And, you know, this is great, we love that 6 you guys are here. 7 And John Flanagan left, and it's too bad. 8 John and I produced a documentary about the 9 heroin epidemic a couple years ago. 10 And what I want to see happen here on 11 Long Island, and New York State, we need to 12 "Common Core" this bad boy. 13 [Applause.] 14 MAUREEN ROSSI [ph.]: You know? 15 I know it's kind of a dirty word for 16 John Flanagan, but, the fervor, I mean, when 17 Common Core came out, I mean, the Facebook pages, 18 the tweets, the social media, parents rising up in 19 every community. 20 We need to "Common Core" this bad boy. 21 Thank you. 22 [Applause.] 23 SENATOR MARTINS: Kym, what do you think? 24 KYM LAUBE: So, I love the opportunity to 25 talk about prevention, love the opportunity to talk 1 about how we need to get this in schools, and how we 2 really need to move this into families. 3 And, your coalitions -- King's Park In The 4 Know, Lindy Cares, West Hampton Coalition, 5 Sag Harbor -- the coalitions really become a major 6 player in getting us to do this. 7 You know, some of our states to the east -- 8 uh, to the west of us have a prevention provider in 9 every school. 10 I can't tell you how paramount that is. 11 Our prevention staff as a state is down. Our 12 youth-development staff and our youth bureaus are 13 getting smaller and smaller and it's getting more 14 difficult. 15 As much as we want to say we want to get into 16 schools, because we know that needs to happen, it's 17 hard to get through those doors now, and hard to 18 connect this type of education into the current 19 educational system, and where it is. 20 So that's where we really need to make our 21 voices louder, and we need to do exactly what 22 Maureen talked about. We need to fight this fight 23 harder and louder and stronger, and not back off of 24 it. 25 Common Core brought tremendous parents out. 1 There's a lot of different issues that have 2 brought parents out fighting and arguing; and this 3 is one we need to get behind. 4 And my hope is, the continued dialogue, good, 5 clear, accurate information. The strengthening of 6 the forces is really gonna be what is gonna help us 7 turn this corner. 8 Drug and alcohol prevention, sound 9 prevention, is capacity building and workforce 10 development. Right? 11 This is not only good health practice, but 12 this is about our future. 13 And when we talk about keeping medication out 14 of our natural resource of our drinking water, let's 15 keep it out of our natural resource of our young 16 people, right, because that's where the answer and 17 that's where this lies. 18 [Applause.] 19 KYM LAUBE: Young people need -- they need 20 good strong adults. They need -- and my whole job 21 is about building young people who make a choice to 22 be drug- and alcohol-free before it's an issue for 23 them. Right? 24 That's what the basis of my work is. 25 So they need adults who help carry that 1 message right along there with them. 2 But, they need the peer-to-peer; so that when 3 you're sending young people from treatment programs 4 back into high school, there's already a group and a 5 network of young people who have made it cool, who 6 have made it trendy, who've made successful lives 7 out of being drug- and alcohol-free. 8 And we need more workers to help us get 9 there. 10 [Applause.] 11 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 12 What do you think? 13 RICHARD BUCKMAN: Am I working? 14 Okay. 15 I actually am at work. 16 I just want to add something to what Kym 17 said, because some of you are familiar with recovery 18 high schools -- 19 [Applause.] 20 RICHARD BUCKMAN: -- that's sort of sprouting 21 up across the country a little bit. 22 In the movie "The Anonymous People," which, 23 if you haven't seen yet -- 24 [Applause.] 25 RICHARD BUCKMAN: -- who's seen it? Anybody? 1 Okay. 2 [Applause.] 3 RICHARD BUCKMAN: -- I would encourage our 4 distinguished panelists to make sure they catch a 5 screening of "The Anonymous People." We'd certainly 6 be more than glad to arrange one for them, as well. 7 Recovery high schools, there's a few in 8 Boston, and the impact that they're having breaks 9 out statistically, this way: 10 If a young person in high school goes to 11 treatment, and returns to the same high school they 12 came from, 90 percent of those kids will relapse, 13 and 80 percent of them will relapse within less than 14 30 days. 15 If they go to a recovery high school, the 16 attendance is over 90 percent, and more than 17 70 percent of them graduate, clean and sober. 18 I think that says a lot about recovery 19 high schools. 20 [Applause.] 21 SENATOR MARTINS: I appreciate that. 22 That -- that's a perfect segue, as we address 23 this issue. I think it's important that we go to 24 those who are most affected and can speak to it 25 personally. 1 I'm going to ask Mr. and Mrs. Murr: Can you 2 tell us more about the parent group you're in. And, 3 any tips for parents who are currently struggling 4 with a child who is addicted to opioids? 5 DENISE MURR: Well, okay, when we lost 6 Matthew, we found a parental bereavement group, 7 The Compassionate Friends. It's national. 8 We went to the one on Long Island. And, 9 through going there, of course, you know, children 10 lost their lives to various reasons, but we 11 formed -- a group of us formed a group from children 12 that had -- of children that had passed from 13 overdoses. 14 We've been trying to make change. 15 We've gone to the "Fed Up" rally last 16 October, which was for federal recognition of the 17 epidemic of the opioid epidemic. 18 We've gone to Harm Reduction Coalition; we 19 spoke there. 20 I'm trying to think. 21 We've visited sober homes. We're about to 22 visit another sober home this coming month. Have 23 spoken to young men and women in recovery. 24 I'm trying to think of what else. 25 ARTHUR MURR: What you need to do is talk to 1 your kids. You need to -- they may not talk to you. 2 Or, they're talking to you and you're just not 3 hearing it. 4 Matt was famous for asking us a question, and 5 we'd sit there and we'd listen, and we'd give him an 6 answer, and then he'd walk away, and we'd go, What 7 was he just saying? 8 Because he was asking -- there was the 9 question he was asking, there was the question he 10 wanted the answer to, which was not necessarily the 11 same thing. 12 I'm not saying we were good at it. I'm just 13 saying that we were acutely aware that we had to do 14 that. That you had to do what you had to. 15 Listen to your kids, because lots of times 16 they're testing you. 17 We were tested all the time. 18 He was asking a question to see, Was this 19 good? Was this not good? 20 He used to have a conversation with me about 21 pot, and say: Dad, it's not bad. It's okay. 22 I said: If it was so good -- and I can't 23 believe I'm about to say this. 24 I said: Well, if it was so good, it would be 25 legal, and they'd be making millions of dollars off 1 it on tax revenue. 2 DENISE MURR: Yeah. 3 [Laughter.] 4 ARTHUR MURR: It's the truth. 5 I mean, you know, he -- and he kind of 6 stopped, and he looked, and he was like: Oh, okay, 7 okay. 8 I ask you all to look at Colorado, okay, and 9 see what's going on in Colorado. 10 You know, with the comments of: You know, 11 marijuana, it's not as bad as alcohol. 12 Okay, I'm not an advocate of -- you know, of 13 drinking. Whatever you decide to do, I mean, 14 I understand. 15 When you have a glass of wine, when you have 16 a beer, when you have a drink, and you're not having 17 something to excess, are you doing that to get high, 18 or are you doing that because you, either, like it, 19 it goes with your meal? 20 What's the point of smoking a joint? 21 There is only one point: it's to get high. 22 It's not because, Hey, you know, I really 23 like this menthol flavor of this. 24 That's not what's happening here. 25 You gotta think about it. 1 You know, listen to your kids. 2 I'm not saying it's always gonna to work. 3 I'm just saying to you, you have to listen, 4 and you have to keep on them, all the time. 5 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 6 We have a few questions. 7 The first one is from Liz Barardi [ph.] from 8 SafeSoberLiving.org. 9 Liz? 10 Would you like to pose the question, or would 11 you like me to read it for you? 12 LIZ BARARDI [ph.]: [Unintelligible.] 13 SENATOR MARTINS: Come on up. 14 LIZ BARARDI [ph.]: My name is Liz Barardi, 15 and my youngest son, Carter, died of a heroin 16 overdose January 12th. 17 And what I have not heard anybody discuss 18 today -- I did hear you just mention sober homes. 19 He was in treatment. 20 He was denied treatment twice by his 21 insurance company, MVP, but I put him in treatment. 22 He went willingly. 23 But, in his honor, we formed Safe Sober 24 Living to help other people. 25 And what I haven't heard anybody talk about, 1 the long term. This is a lifelong disease. 2 According to Cozet [ph.] Colombia, 50 to 3 75 percent of it is genetics, and it is 4 multifaceted. 5 And I'm just wondering, in this very piece of 6 the puzzle that we're dealing with, what about 7 regulations for sober homes? Because there are 8 none. 9 [Applause.] 10 SENATOR MARTINS: Anthony, what do you say? 11 ANTHONY RIZZUTO: Well, I definitely agree 12 with what you're saying in terms of, this is not 13 something, that a person goes to a 28-day program, 14 or this -- you know, most of the people that we see 15 that come into addiction have been addicted for a 16 while, and it's not a quick fix. 17 Sober homes, I'll tell you, when I first came 18 into this field, I was actually opposed to them, 19 because I saw them, the stigma, you know, going back 20 to stigma, when I close my eyes and I thought about 21 sober homes, prior to getting into this field, was 22 roach-infested, filthy, people shooting up in the 23 bathroom. 24 That was my understanding, having no 25 knowledge about them; just the stigma that was 1 associated with it. 2 I came in and started working in the field, 3 and I was running men's day treatment. And a lot of 4 the people that were in men's day treatment were in 5 sober homes. And I started realizing the benefit 6 that sober homes was having on some of the folks in 7 there. 8 And then I went out and saw them. And, you 9 know, Seafield happens to have a pretty good array 10 of sober homes, but there aren't a lot of -- if you 11 look on Long Island, we've actually -- 12 Legislator Browning has put together a "sober home" 13 oversight board, because there was no oversight. 14 And when there's no oversight, unfortunately, some 15 people look at it as a means to be able to make 16 money. 17 So what I can tell you today, 12 years later, 18 I can tell you that I am a big believer in the 19 benefits of recovery homes -- I like to call them 20 "recovery homes" -- if they're done right. 21 So if there is a certain set of guidelines 22 and criteria, it can be a very, very useful tool in 23 the continuum of the help that we try to give 24 people, especially like some of the folks I've 25 talked about. 1 If you take them and put them back in the 2 same environment where the problem started, where 3 the dealer is down the block, you know, and having 4 the access. So you have cravings, and you, 5 literally, got to go across the street. 6 Here's what I've seen in terms of the 7 recovery homes: 8 First of all, some of them are really bad. 9 Okay, so that's one concern. 10 And, I'm sure that my friend Kelly over here 11 can speak to that. 12 Some of the homes are really bad because 13 there has been no oversight. 14 The other issue that we find, is that we find 15 that when people come into sober homes, if the house 16 is being run right, there is support, there is 17 structure, there's curfews. They have to go to a 18 certain amount of meetings. They have to be 19 involved in treatment. There's testing being done. 20 Not everybody is willing to do that. 21 And then there is the person who takes 22 advantage of the person in recovery, knowing that 23 they have burned their bridges and need a place to 24 live, and they put six people in a room, you know, 25 and they're a slum lord. 1 So, unfortunately, we have to be able to 2 distinguish them, but I absolutely, no doubt, am a 3 big supporter, and believe that recovery homes, if 4 they are done right, are an essential part of the 5 continuum, especially with the fact that people are 6 getting limited amount of time in treatment. 7 So, the 28-day model is kind of like going 8 out the window. It's rare when you hear somebody, 9 from an insurance company, be able to get 28 days. 10 So we're talking, average days, 10 to 11 14 days. 12 I have people that are getting three or 13 four days. 14 So a perfect fit for that, sometimes, if 15 there is no way to extend them, would be an 16 intensive outpatient program, five days a week, 17 three hours a day, in addition to living in a 18 structured environment where there is a house 19 manager, there is testing that is able to be done if 20 there's any suspicion, and they're working towards 21 sustaining long-term recovery. 22 [Applause.] 23 SENATOR MARTINS: Our next question, and 24 forgive me, I believe it's Angie Rurie [ph.]. 25 Would you like -- 1 Thank you, Angie. 2 ANGIE RURIE [ph.]: Hi, I'm Ange Rurie, and 3 I'm the proud mother of Peter, who passed away 4 three -- well, it will 40 months ago, from a heroin 5 overdose. 6 While he was alive, I would tell him 7 privately how proud I was of him, and how hard he 8 was fighting to obtain sobriety and maintain 9 sobriety. 10 Unfortunately, although he had said, "Ma, you 11 can tell anyone, I don't care," I chose not to. 12 So what message was I giving him, really? 13 Was I proud? 14 So my big question is, how we can get rid of 15 the shame, blame, and stigma. 16 It saddens me to see, while we're in the 17 midst of an epidemic, all these empty seats. 18 Any other disease, there'd be standing room 19 only. 20 I don't believe our government can help us 21 completely get out of this epidemic. 22 I believe we need to get rid of that shame so 23 that there would be more people. I think we'd have 24 a lot more resources. There would be a lot more 25 people advocating. I think there would be a lot 1 more private funds being raised. 2 It doesn't just hit poor people. There are a 3 lot of hospitals with wings named proudly after 4 people. 5 That's not happening for the rehabs. 6 And I just would like to -- I know prevention 7 is a big part of it. 8 I heard Friday that Long Island is proud to 9 have a program in the schools called "Too Good For 10 Drugs." 11 It made me feel -- I've learned to really 12 listen to my feelings, and it made me feel really 13 bad. 14 My son Peter was not bad. 15 It made me think about a 7-year-old possibly 16 hearing those words, and having a father that served 17 our country and came back with PTSD, that's now 18 self-medicating. 19 Is that little boy gonna think his dad is 20 bad? 21 Is he going to think he's bad? 22 Is he going to resent his dad? 23 What about the high-schooler who thinks he 24 may have a problem, and they're being taught you're 25 too good for drugs? 1 Is he going to ask for help? 2 What are his friends going to think? 3 I understand the other side of it, but I want 4 you to hear how, as a parent, whose son fought very 5 hard for recovery, how it made me feel to hear 6 those. 7 So I just wish you would consider that. 8 I also, just in closing, would like to read, 9 one of my friends has a 20-year-old son in recovery, 10 and he posted this on Facebook the other day. 11 "Prayers go out to an old classmate of mine 12 tonight. If the prayers can give you even a moment 13 of relief, it would bring me joy. 14 "In such a dark, lonely spot, love and 15 compassion from others can make all the difference. 16 "I've also seen how judgment towards others 17 can be such an ignorant act. 18 "How can one judge another man if one's never 19 walked in their shoes? 20 "How, even more so, does it make you feel 21 better about yourself? 22 "Does hate and negativity improve your life 23 and attitude in any way? 24 "I myself am grateful I have gotten myself 25 out of a similar hole, and learned some principles 1 along the way. 2 "Hate should have no place in the heart." 3 Thank you. 4 [Applause.] 5 SENATOR MARTINS: Angie, thank you. Thank 6 you very much. 7 And, I don't think anybody up here could have 8 said it anymore eloquently. 9 Thank you very much for sharing. 10 Steve, what do you think? 11 You know, the stigma, the shame, that comes 12 with it, I mean, we've talked about different 13 aspects of that already today. 14 We talked about education. We talk about 15 civic groups. We talk about pulling back the veil 16 that oftentimes hides, you know, the fact that this 17 is much more prevalent than I think many of us wish 18 to accept. 19 What more should we be doing about this? 20 STEVE MARGOLIES: Well, I think part of this 21 also has to do with where we -- I mean, let me take 22 that back. 23 One of the things we need to do is look at 24 this, really, as a disease with a treatment, and 25 remove all the obstacles that we can in any way we 1 can. 2 We talk -- we heard earlier about talking 3 about educating medical providers, to start 4 screening for substance abuse and start treating 5 earlier. 6 We've talked about schools. 7 So I think the more you look at it as a 8 disease that needs to be treated, just like 9 diabetes, just like high blood pressure, the more 10 stigma can be removed from this. 11 It's a very difficult thing. People have 12 very fixed ideas, and it takes a lot of education 13 and a lot of time. But I think the more prevalent 14 treatment becomes in everyday lives, the less stigma 15 there would be. 16 If I had my choice, I would bring treatment 17 into primary-care clinics, I would bring treatment 18 into hospitals, I would bring it into schools, where 19 people that come in for every other aspect of their 20 health, also have this -- have addiction as part of 21 something they're screened for, and possibly treated 22 for, so it becomes routinized; it becomes a routine 23 thing. 24 SENATOR MARTINS: I appreciate that; and that 25 leads us into a natural segue to a further topic, 1 having to do with education, and the place education 2 has. 3 And I'll pose this question to Dr. Ring. 4 Doctor, you know, there's been a lot going on 5 in the education system lately, but one thing that 6 may be underaddressed is having drug-awareness 7 programs in schools. 8 Can you speak to what is being done, and what 9 can be done, to bring awareness into the classroom? 10 DR. MICHAEL F. RING: Sure. 11 As I said earlier, at Rocky Point we start 12 with kindergarten. 13 We start with kindergarten in terms of 14 education, but we also start at that level with 15 intervention. 16 And we know -- we're very confident that none 17 of our kindergarteners are involved with heroin. We 18 just know people around them are, and that it's 19 impacting them in different ways, and may cause them 20 to be the next person to be involved. 21 So, we handle it directly, with the support 22 and intervention with those students. 23 We handle it, really, what is an indirect 24 approach, with the general education. And that's a 25 tough one. 1 And as an educator, I often say, that can be, 2 at times, our least effective method, particularly 3 if you go down that old road, as was said earlier, 4 of putting a thousand people in an auditorium and 5 talking at them. 6 The difference, it was mentioned before -- 7 and now that the words "Common Core" have been used, 8 I can use them freely here without fear -- but, it 9 was mentioned about the Common Core, and we need to 10 "Common Core" this. 11 It was mentioned about the number of people 12 in this auditorium, and it's true: If this were the 13 heroin and opioid and Common Core forum, we'd have 14 to have it in Yankee Stadium. 15 And the only difference, we have a lot of 16 people here who are directly involved in the battle, 17 and we have a lot of parents here who have been 18 directly impacted. 19 The only difference between those parents and 20 every other parent, is it hasn't happened to those 21 other parents, yet. 22 It hasn't happened to my child, yet. It 23 hasn't happened to their children, yet. 24 They see Common Core and the testing as a 25 very real threat to their children. 1 I don't know of anyone who's died from that 2 yet. I don't know of any child whose future has 3 been ruined over that yet. 4 I know plenty of kids in my own district, and 5 families, that have been. 6 We need to get that level of education out. 7 We recently partnered with the 8 county executive on what is a small measure, but 9 it's a start -- 10 And as I said, building bridges is key for 11 me. I'll take any opportunity. 12 -- and that's creating a small PSA (public 13 service announcement); a video. 14 And when we got together last December to 15 discuss the theme of it, some people wanted to talk 16 at the kids. 17 And I said: If we're to going do just this 18 one, we need to talk directly to the parents. 19 Parents have the greatest influence in the 20 lives of their children. They are the true front 21 line. 22 We need to talk to the parents. The parents 23 need to believe that this can happen, and it will 24 happen. 25 And we have people in this room who have 1 testified to that, and who will. 2 So, our education needs to go beyond our 3 walls. 4 And when we deal with it within our walls and 5 directly with our kids, it has to be real to them as 6 well. 7 It can't be: Well, I'm gonna go to the 8 auditorium and sleep for the next 42 minutes, and, 9 the administrator gets to check off a box that I did 10 this thing; and, therefore, I did the right thing by 11 my community. 12 [Applause.] 13 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 14 I have a question by E. Skoyan [ph.]. 15 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: That would be me. 16 SENATOR MARTINS: Ma'am. 17 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: I'm not used to 18 this. I taught high school for 28 years, and never 19 used a microphone. You know, I have a cane. 20 [Laughter.] 21 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: My name is 22 Elizabeth Skoyan. Not many people know that. I go 23 by "E." It's a nom de plume. 24 I recently retired from teaching high school 25 on Long Island for 28 years. 1 I also was an administrator for at-risk 2 intervention services, a mandate that's not funded, 3 as many mandates are from this State. 4 No disrespect to Senator Flanagan. 5 My experience is professional and personal. 6 The first thing I want to say is, in school 7 we have a thing called "Sum It Up." And that way, 8 the kid has to write what they learned that day in 9 class, and they sum it up. 10 And if I summed up what we've discussed so 11 far, I would say we're preaching to the choir here; 12 that I don't think there's one person here that 13 doesn't disagree with anything anybody has said. 14 And we all know that the problem, I believe, 15 is that the voice is not being heard at the level it 16 needs to be heard. 17 And, I grew up in the '60s. And they say, 18 "If you remember the '60s, you weren't there." 19 And that was true for me. 20 [Laughter.] 21 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: I became a diabetic 22 at the age of 11, back in the day of the Dark Ages. 23 At the age of 12, I picked up narcotics, 24 opiates. And at 15, I detoxed from heroin in a jail 25 cell. 1 This was back in the '60s. And, I don't 2 know if it was the times, but my parents had me a 3 ward of the State, and I was put away for two years 4 in what would now be considered a residential rehab. 5 My father was a judge. Imagine the 6 embarrassment. But, my parents loved me enough. 7 And, I got out of that program at 18 and 8 I said: Wow, that didn't work too well for me. 9 And, I never graduated high school. 10 I was a journalist. 11 I don't know how it happened, but I ended up 12 a high school teacher. 13 And there's one thing I know, and that's, 14 I know the Sweat Hogs. 15 I know the Sweat Hogs. I was one, and 16 I became a teacher of them. 17 And, I taught in a maximum-security prison 18 for convicted felons, 14 to 18, in Oakland, 19 Alameda County. That was my first teaching job. 20 And, education in California is mandated to 21 18, so it really doesn't matter. 22 But would I say, even back then in the 23 '70s, those kids that came off the streets, those 24 were the ones we thought of as the addicts. 25 They were the victims as well. And they 1 celebrate these dealers. 2 This one guy was shot on the corner. They 3 had a caisson, and, through the streets of Oakland, 4 and he was revered. And he was one of the biggest 5 dealers there was. 6 And we see that here on Long Island. 7 But to get to my comment, or my point, 8 regarding education: 9 I did go to an alternative program. 10 I eventually got a GED. And when I began teaching, 11 my empathy for those kids that didn't fit. 12 I didn't teach special ed. I taught at-risk 13 education. 14 And Dr. Dowling mentioned co-occurring 15 symptoms, where there might be some kind of a mental 16 illness, and then you find a drug, which is what 17 happened to me, and life was beautiful. 18 And, I saw a lot of that in my years in BOCES 19 and several other districts in Nassau. 20 But, I think Dr. Ring spoke to it as well, 21 that peer-to-peer, and Dr. Reynolds spoke to it, 22 peer-to-peer, in my personal experience and 23 professional experience, is pandamont [ph.] to 24 getting kids to open up. 25 It's not gonna cure -- there is no cure. 1 I've been in recovery since January 26, 1988. 2 I go to AA. I speak, I share my story, 3 because I don't -- my parents weren't ashamed to 4 help me. I'm not ashamed to help other people. 5 I've taken kids to AA. 6 [Applause.] 7 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: It's humility. It's 8 nothing to be... 9 But the thing is, I started a SADD club every 10 high school I was in. And SADD is now "Students 11 Against Destructive Decisions." 12 I didn't do it by the text book. We did 13 stuff, like, we went down and went like crazy people 14 to the middle school, and took high-schoolers down 15 there, and did silly things. 16 And I didn't care if I was embarrassed. And 17 I think the kids felt like they weren't embarrassed. 18 Because those middle-schoolers would come up, 19 in ninth grade, and they have would have, something: 20 Gee, I remember those crazy SADD people came down. 21 It's not the total answer, but more programs 22 like that. 23 Like you said, somebody coming in and talking 24 about probation, and what's going to happen to you, 25 and, kind of -- 1 SENATOR MARTINS: Yeah, we're not gonna 2 frighten our kids -- 3 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: No. 4 SENATOR MARTINS: -- by having a 42-minute 5 lecture on the cons of getting involved in this 6 discussion. 7 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: I've seen those many 8 times, and the kids will be crying, and the 9 speaker's left. 10 SENATOR MARTINS: I agree with you. 11 So, and I'll give you one -- 12 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: But the peer review 13 is -- or peer -- peer, uh -- 14 SENATOR MARTINS: Peer counseling is key. 15 The idea of integrating programs into a 16 school environment that is seamless. It's not once 17 every month, once every two months. It's part of 18 the everyday curriculum. 19 And it really is gonna take an overall 20 effort, like the effort that we had taken societally 21 to combat smoking, alcohol use. 22 I can tell you that, societally, my parents' 23 generation had one view when it came to these 24 things. 25 Our generation was far less tolerant. 1 And my kids are far tolerant because of the 2 environment that they get and the learning that they 3 get from school. 4 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: Correct. 5 SENATOR MARTINS: And from society, 6 generally. 7 That's what it's going to take. 8 So your point is very well made. 9 Thank you very much. 10 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: Start a rehab 11 school, I'll come out of retirement. 12 [Applause.] 13 SENATOR MARTINS: I have a question from 14 Miss Ramos [ph.]; Joanna Ramos. 15 Joanna, are you here? 16 Thank you. 17 JOANNA RAMOS [ph.]: I actually want to thank 18 all of you for doing this. 19 I'm a parent, at Smithtown schools. 20 And my issue is, that I am trying so hard to 21 get one of the evidence-based programs into our 22 school, and I'm getting resistance, not from the 23 parents, but from our school district. 24 I believe -- I have a high-schooler, I have a 25 college student, and a little one going into school. 1 I really strongly believe that early -- 2 early, evidence-based programs are how to go, 3 especially with these children. 4 It's evidence. 5 It's evidence that our children need early 6 education on this epidemic. 7 I have a problem: I just need to get the 8 school board on board. 9 How can I do this? 10 Too Good For Drugs, HUGS...something, 11 anything, I'm desperate. 12 I'm a parent. I'm dealing with my children, 13 trying to educate them in the best way that I can. 14 I need help, and I'm asking for help. 15 Thank you. 16 [Applause.] 17 SENATOR MARTINS: Miss Ramos, thank you. 18 Dr. Reynolds, what do you say to that? 19 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: So, here's a story: 20 I'm also a Smithtown parent. 21 And three years ago, I went to 22 Smithtown School District and trotted out my fancy 23 credentials, and talked about LICADD and Too Good 24 For Drugs, and everything like that. 25 And the superintendent at the time, who 1 I grew to like very, very much, kind of looked and 2 said: Well, you know, maybe some parents might be 3 upset, that kind of thing, but it looked like we 4 might be going forward. 5 Parenthetically, I said: By the way, 6 I didn't mention, but I have a daughter in one of 7 your middle schools. 8 The red carpet appeared. Right? 9 [Laughter.] 10 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Suddenly, I was no 11 longer the professional banging on the door, looking 12 for something, whatever else. I suddenly became the 13 parent with an interest in the district. 14 I will tell you that we lost a lot of 15 momentum after that superintendent left, but some of 16 the seeds we planted continue today. 17 But the main fear on the part of the 18 school -- and we did it in two out of three 19 middle schools -- the main concern, was that the 20 parents from those two middle schools would be upset 21 that we were doing those kind of programs, and 22 suggesting that, God forbid, Smithtown had a 23 substance-use problem. 24 Instead, the parents from the third school 25 that got left out, came to our announcements and 1 said: How come our kids aren't getting this? 2 So here's what I'd say to you: 3 The lesson here is, when parents ask for 4 things, and correct me if I'm wrong, they're more 5 likely to get them than someone who's perceived as 6 being an outside organization and coming and asking 7 for it. 8 The perception is, that parents don't want 9 these kind of programs in the schools. 10 If you go and ask for it, you make our job a 11 lot easier. And I think there are a number of 12 organizations that are ready, willing, and able to 13 help you carry this down the field. 14 Speak up as parents; ask for it. 15 [Applause.] 16 SENATOR MARTINS: And as another point on 17 that: 18 You know, members of your board of education 19 are elected. They campaign like everyone else. 20 And, when they are running for reelection, or 21 running for election, it is not out of the question 22 to ask them, "What is your position on"...fill in 23 the blank. 24 And if that topic is clearly important to 25 those of us who are here and many who will be 1 watching, that should be an important topic: How do 2 we address this issue? It is an issue. We know 3 it's there. We shouldn't hide from it. 4 And have those people who are in our 5 communities running as members of the board of 6 education, ask them where they stand on the issue 7 and make that part of the campaign, as well. 8 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: [Inaudible.] 9 SENATOR MARTINS: Give me just one second, 10 because no one is going to be able to hear you. It 11 is being recorded. 12 And, frankly, before I go to you, I did 13 promise that I would recognize someone else, but 14 I will come back to you, but we'll take you right 15 here at the mic. 16 I want to take an opportunity to recognize 17 Detective Pam Starr [ph.], who's here -- 18 Detective? 19 [Applause.] 20 SENATOR MARTINS: -- who has been an 21 incredible advocate on this issue for years. 22 I remember, Pam, we discussing this issue -- 23 DETECTIVE PAM STARR [ph.]: Minneola. 24 SENATOR MARTINS: -- Minneola, four, five, 25 six years ago, before anyone recognized openly that 1 we had an epidemic. 2 You were there, you were talking about it, 3 and you were leading the way. 4 Thanks for being here. 5 DETECTIVE PAM STARR [ph.]: Oh, thank you. 6 With regard to the Too Good For Drugs, 7 Nassau County, I just wanted to offer some 8 information to everybody in the audience. 9 Nassau County Police Department actually 10 worked with Dr. Reynolds -- 11 And, I think you're one of the reasons why 12 I'm here today, Dr. Reynolds. 13 -- giving me a spot to be, pretty much, a 14 liaison between our department and the community. 15 And one of those avenues was education, where 16 they use asset-forfeiture money from drug seizures. 17 And, I was the one who was sent to be 18 certified as a Too Good For Drug trainer. And to 19 date, I did six 2-day trainings. 20 The first day is K through 8. The second day 21 is high school. 22 And once I certify a school district -- 23 And we have 56 in Nassau County. 24 -- after I certify them, we then pay for the 25 curriculum to every school district in 1 Nassau County, at no charge, through the 2 asset-forfeiture funds. 3 That also goes to parochial schools, 4 private schools, as well. 5 So, we've been doing it. 6 And I heard you mention about the Too Good 7 For Drugs, and that it offended you. 8 You know what I would like to do? 9 I'd like to offer you to come to my next 10 training, so this way, you can get to know, because 11 I don't think that the title really represents the 12 goal. 13 ANGIE RURIE [ph.]: [Inaudible.] 14 DETECTIVE PAM STARR [ph.]: Well -- 15 ANGIE RURIE [ph.]: [Inaudible.] 16 DETECTIVE PAM STARR [ph.]: Well, I promise 17 you, that's not how I feel, and it would be my 18 pleasure to -- 19 ANGIE RURIE [ph.]: [Inaudible.] 20 DETECTIVE PAM STARR [ph.]: Well, let me just 21 explain something -- 22 SENATOR MARTINS: I will add this, and 23 I think this is critically important: That we have 24 this dialogue and we understand that sometimes there 25 are unintended consequences to certain phrases, 1 certain turns of phrases, and we have to be much 2 more open to that. 3 And thanks for bringing that out, because 4 I don't -- personally, I don't believe that there 5 was any intent other than to promote a certain 6 policy, but no one thought about it from that other 7 standpoint. 8 And now that we have, I think we have an 9 opportunity to go back and reevaluate. 10 So thank you for that. 11 DETECTIVE PAM STARR [ph.]: Well, the 12 Too Good For Drugs program, just so that you know, 13 is from the Mendez Foundation. It's been in the 14 schools since 1978, and it's in 50 states, over 15 3,000 schools. 16 I do believe that Nassau County Police 17 Department is the only school that backed it. And 18 it's, pretty much, 95 percent role play. It's drug 19 prevention, not -- 20 ANGIE RURIE [ph.]: [Inaudible.] 21 SENATOR MARTINS: Folks, listen, please. 22 We're not going to be able to get this. This can't 23 be a back-and-forth. 24 Let's -- 25 DETECTIVE PAM STARR [ph.]: It would be my 1 pleasure for you to be in my audience the next time. 2 Thank you. 3 SENATOR MARTINS: I appreciate it. 4 Detective, thank you very much. 5 [Applause.] 6 SENATOR MARTINS: And, I can't tell you -- 7 you know, this is helpful. It is very helpful. The 8 exchange is helpful. The opportunity to have 9 different experiences and shared experiences, and 10 different points of view on the same topic, it's 11 healthy, and it's how we're able to grow. 12 Sir, you had a question before. I'm going to 13 recognize you now. 14 Would you? 15 Thank you. 16 ROB GOLDMAN: My name is Rob Goldman. 17 As I mentioned, I am a professor here at 18 Suffolk Community College, and I also run two 19 programs called the "I Matter Project" and the 20 "Just Like Me Program," that are now being 21 distributed through -- thankfully, through the 22 Suffolk County library system. 23 There's something I want to share that just 24 hasn't come up, and it was really brought to the 25 surface by this woman from Smithtown, and from Jeff 1 who I know is also from Smithtown. 2 That, Lisa Hamilton, who is the head of -- 3 You here, Lisa? 4 No? 5 -- she works here, and she runs the 6 student -- campus activities department. 7 And for 5 1/2 years that I've been here, my 8 ideas that I come up with for my class to do are far 9 from mainstream. They're very touchy, they're very 10 challenging, for the students, and for the campus, 11 and oftentimes for the community. 12 So in the beginning I would go to Lisa and 13 I would say: Hey, I have this great idea. 14 And she would say: Uh, no. No. It's a good 15 idea, but, no. 16 And after maybe the third or fourth year, 17 I got tired of being shot down. 18 And one day, sitting in class, I said: You 19 know, I went to Lisa Hamilton, and I had this idea, 20 and we are all so for it. You guys came up with an 21 amazing idea, but she said no again. So what are we 22 gonna do? 23 And one of my students raised their hands and 24 said: Why don't we ask her? 25 From that day forward, no project has been 1 turned down. 2 And Lisa said to me: You just had to figure 3 it for yourself. We can't say no to our kids or 4 we're going against what we stand for, we're not 5 doing our jobs. 6 So when I look back at my history, I started 7 off as an educator, quote/unquote, as a cub scout 8 leader, and my kids were 7 and 8 years old. 9 We brought programs into our community, and 10 into our school, believe it or not, into our school, 11 where the favorite answer of all answers in public 12 schools is just that beautiful little deadly phrase, 13 "No." 14 And I had my kids, when they were 7 and 15 8 years old, walk into the assistant superintendent 16 of finance and say: We have an idea for a project. 17 The woman who sat in the chair in that office 18 said that no child in her 20-something years had 19 ever walked into the superintendent's office. 20 8:00 the next morning, I had a "go." My 21 project was funded. 22 So, as a professional, my school district 23 said, Thanks, but no thanks. 24 As a parent, my school district said, Thanks, 25 but no thanks. 1 But I want to thank -- who is that person 2 from Smithtown? Because we're coming there next. 3 Who are you? Your name? 4 SENATOR MARTINS: We'll connect you 5 afterwards. 6 ROB GOLDMAN: Joanna? 7 I just want to say that there is a new way, 8 and it's empowering our kids; not only for them to 9 think intelligently, but to allow them to learn what 10 it means to take a stand for themselves in the 11 community, in their home, with their peers, with 12 their teachers. 13 It's good to have a voice. It's really 14 healthy. 15 So don't just listen to your kids, don't just 16 talk to your kids. Empower them. 17 They're just young, but they're smart, and 18 they know what they need more than any of us do. 19 They really do know. 20 Thank you. 21 [Applause.] 22 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you very much. 23 I have a question here from Kate Mire [ph.]. 24 Kate? 25 KATE MIRE [ph.]: You can read it. 1 SENATOR MARTINS: I will read it then. 2 Thank you. 3 It's for Richard Buckman. 4 Richard, there are many people in recovery 5 out there that want to share their experience, to 6 help many of the initiatives you speak about today. 7 What is the best way for them to advocate for 8 recovery, and reduce the negative stigma associated 9 with addiction? 10 RICHARD BUCKMAN: Thanks, Kate. It's nice to 11 see you again. 12 I think, uhm -- what we need to continue to 13 do is to put a public face and voice on people in 14 recovery. 15 I wanted to speak to this a little earlier, 16 when the young lady was speaking about the stigma, 17 and that whole thing around, "How do you change 18 stigma?" 19 It's a monumental battle, but the way that 20 you change the stigma is you continue to put a 21 public face on it. 22 Produce family members. 23 Produce people in long-term recovery, that 24 are famous, that are well known; that are everyday 25 people, that are electricians, that are state 1 senators, that are Assembly people. 2 Let those folks continue to come forward and 3 put their face out there, and say: 4 I'm a person in recovery, and what's 5 happening here is unacceptable. 6 And you know what? There's 23 million more 7 people just like me. 8 And guess what? We're coming. 9 That's what we do. 10 [Applause.] 11 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you, Richard. 12 [Laughter.] 13 SENATOR MARTINS: You know, it is a fine 14 line; it is a fine line that we walk here, and it 15 probably is a razor's edge. 16 If you think about it, you know, on one end, 17 we do not want to glorify the use, and we have to 18 take, I think, a proactive approach when it comes to 19 how it is portrayed in media, in films, on TV; and 20 on the other hand, we don't want to demonize it, nor 21 can we. 22 And, so, we have to strike the proper 23 balance, I would think, between the need to provide 24 help, and to understand that it exists, and that we 25 have to work together to overcome it, but, we cannot 1 portray it, or allow it to be portrayed societally, 2 as something that is acceptable. 3 And so there is the fine line. 4 Dr. Dowling, what do you think? 5 DR. FRANK DOWLING: I think you're spot-on. 6 And I think it's a challenge that, the fact 7 is, substance use, alcohol and other drug use -- 8 elicit drug use, is normal. It's unhealthy and it's 9 risky very often, but it's normal. 10 Most kids drink before they finish 11 high school, at least once, even with the drinking 12 age being 21 for a long time. 13 About half of kids smoke pot at least once 14 before they finish high school. 15 But before they finish college, it is a 16 majority who have tried it at least once. 17 And then other drugs, lower percentages, but 18 it's normal. 19 "Normal" does not mean it's okay. There's 20 healthy choices and unhealthy choices. 21 And I agree with everything that's been said 22 about stigma and educating, and I wanted to grab on 23 to the "peer." 24 I do a lot of work with cops, firefighters, 25 EMTs, and docs, cultures that don't get help, and 1 the peer is always the key in getting help. 2 We see that with our militaries, we try and 3 reduce suicide. 4 We need to have peers who aren't just 5 honor students. We need honor students, we need 6 athletes, we need average students, we need people 7 in drama club, people on the football team, people 8 wherever, who are points of contact that can say 9 from get-go: You know, I know you went drinking at 10 the party. I don't think that was a good idea. Do 11 you have a problem? Do you need to talk to someone? 12 And then get them to the proper people at 13 school. 14 That's just one very simple example, but, 15 it's carried out in a million ways. 16 So it's normal, and it's unhealthy, and we 17 need to tackle. 18 We also have to recognize that not every 19 person who uses an elicit substance has a clinical 20 problem, even if it's all unwise, and that's where 21 the challenge is. 22 A good parent who's trying to tease this out 23 could be in denial and saying: Well, it's okay 24 'cause it's just this or that. 25 Or, that kid might have just experimented and 1 might not really have a problem. 2 But either way, the kid probably needs to 3 look at it more, and look at it more with a 4 professional, to try and figure it out. 5 So, you know, those are some thoughts that 6 I think we need to throw into this mix. 7 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you, Doctor. 8 Arthur? 9 ARTHUR MURR: It wasn't just Matt, but most 10 of the kids that we know about, they all used to use 11 the same phrase: I just want to be normal. 12 "Normal" to them was not necessarily normal 13 that you would think as "normal." 14 "Normal" meant that, to your point, they'll 15 go out, they'll have a beer, they may smoke a joint, 16 and the next day they'll function. They'll be okay, 17 they'll be able to do something. They'll be fine. 18 There's no problem. They can take the test, they 19 can pass. 20 I mean, you can't -- you know, I hear, you 21 know, okay, the drinking age is 21. They're gonna 22 drink at 18. 23 Well, we're not gonna have prohibition. 24 We've already proven that one didn't work. Okay? 25 But the kids that couldn't stop, that's where 1 the problem, that's where it is. 2 You know, I mean, yes, you should not be 3 drinking. Yes, you should not be doing this. 4 But, you know, when they wake up the next 5 morning and they can't stop, or they're completely 6 destroyed, and the person next to them, like in a 7 college dorm, is up, taking their test, doing all 8 this sort of, they look at this and go: I just want 9 to be like him. I want to be normal. 10 It's not -- keep it in mind: it's not the 11 normal that you might think that it is, but to them, 12 it's very real. And it is real. 13 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 14 I'm going to try and keep us within an hour 15 of our time, because we are going beyond, but, the 16 discussion has been very important, I believe, this 17 morning. 18 I have a number of questions, and some people 19 who would like to make statements. 20 So, I will go through the balance that are 21 here before we get to the three topics that we have 22 for our afternoon. 23 After going through these, we'll take a brief 24 break, perhaps 15, 20 minutes or so, come back, and 25 then we'll begin addressing the afternoon topics 1 which are: Legislation; medical/pharmaceutical; 2 treatment, recovery, and prevention; and law 3 enforcement. 4 But before we get there, we have a question 5 from Claudia Hutchinson-Stewart [ph.], and if you'll 6 permit, I'll ask the question. 7 The question is: How safe are residential 8 facilities, and what steps are being taken to keep 9 drugs out of the facilities? 10 And, what steps are being taken to reengage 11 residents back to a safe environment? 12 Who would like to try and take that one? 13 I believe we're talking about recovery homes, 14 residential facilities. 15 Please. 16 JOHN VENZA: When it comes to safety and 17 residential facilities, I think the first thing is, 18 we have to talk about different types of residential 19 facilities. To make one garden-variety statement 20 that residential treatment facilities are all the 21 same would be very dangerous. 22 I think that when it comes to programs, 23 whether they're long-term, short-term residential, 24 programs have to have written policy and procedure 25 in place that speak to what they do around safety, 1 surveillance, the environment, the community, the 2 children-parent involvement. 3 One of the things that programs that have 4 parents involved heavily do, is they keep parents 5 very informed about what happens in programs on a 6 regular basis. 7 Sitting here telling you about residential 8 facilities, obviously, you're taking, for example, 9 55 children like we have, who all came with the most 10 severe progressed mental health and substance 11 addictions, putting them under one roof. 12 And, adolescents, for example, are still 13 drug-seeking. 14 You know, and as far as safety, constant 15 facility runs, constant communication with the kids, 16 constant communication with the parents. 17 Some of the challenges that people heard, and 18 I heard somebody earlier mention about drugs getting 19 into the facilities, recently, a lot of residential 20 programs have been very challenged. 21 And that being the fact, that there are new 22 oversight committees, the New York State Justice 23 Center, and whatnot, and it's changed the way that 24 residential facilities can screen people coming in 25 and out of those programs. 1 And, unfortunately, that's created a huge 2 barrier for treatment facilities to have to deal 3 with and manage and negotiate. 4 And I think most programs, with good 5 leadership, are strategizing around that, of how you 6 do that. 7 Programs, when they are running well, the 8 community itself, the people that live there, are 9 speaking with the staff, and the staff are 10 listening. 11 As much as you will do runs, observations, 12 checking common areas, to make sure they're safe, 13 I think nothing substitutes for the fact that -- and 14 when you're doing client surveys. 15 And by regulations, programs are required to 16 do client-satisfaction surveys for the residents, 17 and, if they're minors, for the adults or the 18 parents. 19 Programs that are listening to the people who 20 are there, the people who are living there, are the 21 programs that are gonna be more likely to be keeping 22 the facility safe. 23 The programs that have a disconnect with the 24 family members, I don't want to say that they're 25 gonna be unsafe, but I think that that's, for us, 1 has been a huge strength, and I think for a lot of 2 programs that are doing that. 3 So... 4 CLAUDIA HUTCHINSON-STEWART [ph.]: I know you 5 said adolescents, but I'm asking for, you know, 6 adults. 7 You know, I've worked in a facility where it 8 was residential, and that was just my question, 9 I was just asking, so that the forum would know. 10 And, actually, as an insider, and as a 11 counselor, I just wanted, you know, the question to 12 be answered, so that everyone would be aware, and, 13 that was my question. 14 It wasn't just for an adolescent forum. It 15 was just for a group forum, so that everyone would 16 be aware. 17 And me as a counselor, working in the 18 facilities, you know, you have your opinions, and 19 I also have mine. 20 So, okay, so that was my question. 21 Okay. 22 And the second part of my question, the 23 answer? 24 How -- what do you do to integrate the 25 families back into a safe -- well, the client back 1 into a safe environment? 2 Or, anyone can answer that question. 3 JOHN VENZA: Again, I can give you one 4 perspective. I'm sure there are multiple 5 perspectives. 6 We created a -- what's called a "school-out 7 transition program." Our kids live there between 8 6 and 12 months. And, generally, between the last 9 4 and 10 weeks of their program residential stay, 10 they'll go back to their district schools. 11 Sometimes there is busing involved from some 12 districts, sometimes it's parents taking them back 13 and forth, so they can begin to go back and deal 14 with the kids who want to bring them down, the kids 15 that want to get them high, to put them through 16 tremendous feelings, and then come back to the 17 safety of the treatment facility at night, as 18 they're doing that reintegration back into the 19 district school. 20 We also begin to extend their time home, on 21 structured passes, with their family during the 22 final phases of treatment, so they begin, not just 23 going home on a weekend, but a workday, when mom and 24 dad go out to work and they have to go and do what 25 they need to do to make it more like real life. 1 That transition process, the whole reentry 2 process, and I know adult programs do very similar 3 things, is critical. 4 We also touch base with very specific student 5 assistant counselors in each of the districts, so 6 there is a liaison when they go back to their 7 district schools and communities. 8 CLAUDIA HUTCHINSON-STEWART [ph.]: Just a 9 question, and then I'm going to sit down and shut 10 up. 11 [Laughter.] 12 CLAUDIA HUTCHINSON-STEWART [ph.]: But, if -- 13 let's say you have a particular situation, where you 14 know that the client is going back, not -- I'm still 15 not talking about adolescent. Understand, I don't 16 work with the adolescents. -- but as an adult, and 17 they're going back to a home where you know it's not 18 safe, do we continue to place them back into a crack 19 house where everyone's getting high? Or do we find 20 a different alternative with different resources to 21 say: Okay, you know what? I feel that, or step in 22 now, and say, This is where I -- you know, we're 23 gonna gear you toward maybe moving you out of your 24 environment, or finding a safe place for you to 25 live? Or do we throw them back out on streets? 1 SENATOR MARTINS: Let me just intercede here 2 for just one moment. 3 There are obviously best practices out there, 4 and I think what we're going to get is, each 5 organization highlighting how that organization has 6 chosen to address this issue. 7 And, perhaps, a more global answer would be, 8 perhaps we have to do a better job at determining 9 those best practices, highlighting them, those that 10 are more successful, in different environments. 11 And, perhaps, create an opportunity for different 12 groups to work together in developing, perhaps, a 13 more holistic approach. 14 Otherwise, I do believe that we're gonna get 15 here is, each group and each organization giving 16 their opinion as to what has worked in their 17 particular instance. 18 And that really isn't, I think, the purpose 19 for this particular forum. 20 It could be a purpose for a future forum. 21 STEVE MARGOLIES: Well, actually, all I was 22 gonna say, is that it really takes a holistic 23 approach; that treatment doesn't end when the 24 treatment episode ends. You have to look at the 25 living situation, employment, school, where they're 1 gonna provide follow-up, and, really address each 2 life area before someone's ready to leave. 3 SENATOR MARTINS: And what kind of a support 4 structure -- 5 STEVE MARGOLIES: Exactly. 6 SENATOR MARTINS: -- does the person have 7 around them, personally, to help them -- 8 STEVE MARGOLIES: It's all part of it. 9 SENATOR MARTINS: It's all part of it. 10 STEVE MARGOLIES: Yeah. 11 SENATOR MARTINS: And it is a very individual 12 question, and there are so many different factors. 13 Yes. 14 DR. JAMES DOLAN: Is this on? Okay. 15 So, just specific to the housing question for 16 adults: Obviously, we have the different levels of 17 housing when someone is in treatment crisis, 18 short-term rehab, and long-term rehab. 19 And, the New York State Office OASAS -- 20 New York State OASAS Office has been criticized over 21 the years for not doing more to assure that there's 22 a safe, stable, supportive housing available to 23 adults to support the recovery process. 24 Fortunately, I think, through the advocacy 25 efforts, such as those that are taking place today, 1 OASAS is moving further in the direction of funding 2 what is called "supported house." It's called 3 "permanent supported housing." 4 Those type of opportunities, housing 5 opportunities, are getting off the ground in 6 Nassau County and in Suffolk. 7 And, in fact, my office does have an RFI 8 kicking around right now with our provider 9 community, also offering the opportunity to provide 10 additional housing slots, to support people who are 11 in the recovery process. 12 So, it is certainly recognized as essential 13 to the recovery process: safe, stable, supportive 14 housing. 15 And, I think we're starting to do more in 16 that area. 17 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 18 Thank you very much. 19 Question here, no attribution, it says: What 20 do we need to do to provide support to parents of 21 people under and over 18 years old of age -- yes, so 22 HIPAA doesn't prevent access to care and support? 23 No, I appreciate that. 24 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I'm specifically looking 25 at, what legislation could be made available to 1 support those parents that are doing everything, 2 like yours did, to get their kids into treatment? 3 Kids are not necessarily under the age of 18, 4 or they are under the age of 18, and HIPAA laws 5 prevent (inaudible) to get information, to get them 6 care? 7 SENATOR MARTINS: And let me repeat that, 8 because unless you're at a mic, they're not gonna 9 get that. 10 No, no, it's fine, and I'll do that. 11 And it's a great question. 12 You know, we have children, that are 13 children, that are over the age of 18, and because 14 of our laws and protections that are rightfully 15 there, they will interfere with a parent's need to 16 be involved, and sometimes excluded from decisions 17 that are made, and care that may be available to a 18 child, "child," although over the age of 18. 19 Arthur? 20 ARTHUR MURR: Right, and, first of all, when 21 they're over 21 -- [technical difficulties]. 22 So when they're over 21, they can walk out. 23 And they do. Okay? 24 Whenever we -- whenever Matt agreed -- and 25 I gotta say it this way -- whenever Matt agreed to 1 go to a facility, we worked very hard to make sure 2 that he would sign the paper that allowed us to 3 speak to him, and speak to the counselors. Okay? 4 That's an option. That's not a requirement. 5 And we were told, and when he was -- when he 6 was -- you know, just started, when he was -- you 7 know, when he was under 21. 8 When it became over 21, it got to be: Well, 9 he's here, but if he decides to leave, we can't stop 10 him, and we can't tell you anything about it when 11 he -- when he does leave. 12 Fortunately for us, by the time he got over 13 21, he was getting more and more motivated to do 14 something about himself, you know, and to try to 15 help himself. 16 But it is a problem. It really is. 17 He has protections, he should have 18 protections, but it's not -- but it can't be 19 absolute. No right that we have is absolute. 20 There's always something that goes on with it. 21 And there's something here that needs to 22 change with it also. 23 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 24 Yes. 25 DR. JAMES DOLAN: I'll turn this on. 1 It's not working. I'll just talk loud. 2 Oh, there we go. 3 This might be more pertinent to the later 4 discussion about legislative issues, but, on the 5 mental-health side of the business, we have what is 6 known as "AOT Law," or also referred to as 7 "Kendra's Law," which means that it's court-ordered 8 outpatient treatment. It's -- it's made available 9 to individuals who are a danger to themselves or 10 others, and that fact has been established over a 11 period of a recent history, and that dangerousness 12 is due to, uh -- oftentimes, non-compliance due 13 to -- non-compliance with treatment. 14 So the question is always oftentimes posed to 15 me: Why don't we have it, an AOT Law/Kendra's Law, 16 similar to -- or on the chemical-dependency side of 17 the business. 18 And then I think that would be appropriate. 19 When children or adults are a danger to 20 themselves or others, but they're in between 21 overdoses, the law -- New York State law doesn't 22 allow for us to do, so to speak, a pickup, or 23 mandate that person into outpatient treatment. 24 So we -- again, with the people who have a 25 primary psychiatric diagnosis, if we know that that 1 person is a danger to themselves or others, without 2 treatment, that we have AOT Law that enables us to 3 have a court-ordered outpatient treatment in those 4 instances. 5 We don't have that same tool available to us 6 when the person is in between overdoses. We are not 7 able to mandate treatment for those individuals. 8 So, if a parent was to report -- if a child 9 is under this AOT Law extension that includes people 10 who are in between overdoses, if the parent was to 11 report that the child is using again, that would, 12 theoretically, give us the ability to, so to speak, 13 bring that person to the emergency room and restart 14 the treatment process. 15 SENATOR MARTINS: Doctor. 16 DR. FRANK DOWLING: The question about 17 HIPAA privacy and under 18/over 18 is really a great 18 question, and it's important that people understand. 19 And I answer this question as a parent of 20 four children who are 19 through 26, and as a 21 psychiatric physician who does address addictions, 22 as well as the gamut of mental illness. 23 Your child may be 15, 14, 13, 17 and 24 11 months, and you may have to consent to their 25 treatment. But under the law, I can't discuss 1 anything about that with you without their 2 permission. 3 And what's being referred to here under 4 Kendra's Law, Kendra's Law itself, you have to have 5 another psychiatric problem, not just a 6 primary-addiction problem, where the law doesn't 7 even apply to you, but only at the level of imminent 8 danger. 9 And we don't have to mince words. 10 Think of: I'm really afraid as a doctor, 11 death could happen in the next day, and then I can 12 violate that privacy without permission, and only 13 then. 14 Now, on the other hand, in this 15 doctor-patient or therapist/counselor-patient 16 relationship, privacy, confidentiality, and trust is 17 foremost. 18 If I have an addiction problem, I have to 19 know that I can trust that counselor, what they may 20 or may not share, or I'm not willing to get help or 21 willing to talk about the real reasons that are 22 going on with my addiction. 23 It's a troublesome balancing act, but I will 24 say that, legislatively, we need some room for 25 clinical discretion, to say, even if it's not 1 serious and imminent danger, today, tomorrow, is the 2 day, particularly for people under 21 or under 18, 3 there's a high risk of harm over the next few months 4 or something -- we'd have to really figure it out -- 5 where now I can have permission that I can use my 6 judgment and talk to my patient and say: I'd like 7 you to give me permission, but without it, I need to 8 let your parents know. 9 So, it's a very complicated issue, and I'm 10 really glad that question was asked. 11 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 12 [Applause.] 13 SENATOR MARTINS: Richard. 14 RICHARD BUCKMAN: If I could just add 15 something, to extend that a little bit: 16 I think one of things, I was going to suggest 17 this later on as part my own personal 18 recommendations, but -- but I think we do need an 19 involuntary-treatment law here in New York State. 20 And -- 21 [Applause.] 22 RICHARD BUCKMAN: And the reason why we need 23 that, is we're talking about people right here who 24 are already in treatment. But, families have loved 25 ones who are dying because they won't go to 1 treatment, even though everybody knows that they 2 need to be in treatment. 3 And, we have precedent. 4 There are at least 12 states across America 5 who have involuntary-treatment laws. 6 Comes to mind for me are: The Marchman Act 7 in Florida. Casey' Law in Kentucky. 8 Casey's Law in Kentucky, just a quick tidbit, 9 that law materialized out of the passion of a mother 10 who lost her 25-year-old son to an overdose, because 11 he refused to go into treatment. 12 So, I think this is another one of the 13 suggestions that we have to put on the landscape. 14 And, it kind of makes sense. 15 You know, the first responders reversed over 16 500 overdoses last year, according to the statistics 17 that we're seeing. 18 What happens to those people now? Do they 19 get forced into treatment? 20 I think that they should. "We saved your 21 life, now let's go get you some help." 22 I think it's important. 23 [Applause.] 24 RICHARD BUCKMAN: Otherwise -- otherwise, 25 they're gonna OD again next year, especially because 1 they can't get access to treatment. 2 SENATOR MARTINS: It almost seems like a 3 shame to break right now, doesn't it? 4 We're getting -- we're getting to, I think, 5 some rather critical issues. 6 But, I'm going to pose two more questions 7 that have been asked, and then we are going to take 8 a break, and, we will be back. 9 There are a series of other topics, but we 10 will be able to come back to some of these, I think, 11 this afternoon. 12 The first one I'll pose, on behalf of Janene, 13 is to Dr. Ring. 14 Doctor, the question is: How have you 15 bridged the gap of communication with the community? 16 Is there a protocol, or, perhaps, a best 17 practice that you've used, in terms of outreach to 18 the Rocky Point community when it comes to issues 19 having to do with addiction? 20 DR. MICHAEL F. RING: Well, thank you for the 21 question. 22 Janene, is Janene Gentile, who is executive 23 director of the North Shore Youth Counsel. 24 And we have Peggy Ward with us, who's our 25 lead substance-abuse counselor, districtwide, and 1 also handles cases for us in the high school. 2 And the answer really is: Through people 3 like Janene, you know, Janene's organization 4 educated me. And I -- you know, I am an educator, 5 but I don't know everything, even though I may act 6 like it from time to time. 7 And, Janene's organization is the 8 organization that educated me. 9 I do know people who have died from 10 overdoses, but I still wasn't well educated. 11 So, it starred with getting an education from 12 those who are the true professionals out there in 13 the community, building the bridges with them, and 14 then getting very comfortable -- and this is 15 something that's come up over and over again 16 today -- getting very comfortable with talking about 17 this publicly, as a public problem, without worrying 18 that we would be stigmatized as a community; that 19 someone would think less of us as a school district, 20 or as individuals, just because we're talking about 21 it. 22 And the more you talk about it, the more 23 comfortable you become talking about it, and that 24 allows us to bridge the gap that may exist with 25 parents, as I said earlier, who haven't yet been 1 impacted, but their day may sadly be coming. 2 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you, Janene, for the 3 question. 4 Thank you, Dr. Ring for clarification. 5 [Applause.] 6 SENATOR MARTINS: And, so, I am going to 7 finish this segment, almost full circle, with one of 8 the first questions we asked early on, and it had to 9 do with Lindy Cares. 10 And one of the questions, as a follow-up, 11 was: 12 Are there, again, best practices, practical 13 things, specific things, that groups that are out 14 there, if they're individuals here, or that may be 15 watching, who want to start a similar advocacy group 16 locally, what advice would you give, specifically, 17 as to how they can go about doing it, and what your 18 experience has been? 19 Because, frankly, this can be an opportunity 20 to inspire so many others to follow your lead. 21 JUDITH RAIMONDI: Absolutely. 22 Thanks. 23 Currently, the Suffolk County Prevention 24 Resource Center is very available to help 25 communities that do not currently have a coalition 1 in place. 2 They have led us, and held our hand, from the 3 very beginning, so I'm really grateful for them. 4 The peer-to-peer is an amazing and beautiful 5 idea, and it works, but parent-to-parent is what the 6 problem -- where the problem does lie. 7 So, you know, simple things that we talk 8 about, meeting monthly to try, again, the partnering 9 with community members, with parents, has been 10 critical. 11 But, going to your medicine cabinet and 12 cleaning out the bottles, locking them up, simple 13 things that we can do as parents, is a really great 14 place to start. 15 Another thing: Lock your car doors at night. 16 I mean, we -- just basic things. 17 What we're finding in our community is, 18 heroin addicts will just roll up on your car. 19 If you have your door unlocked, they open it 20 and they steal everything out of the car. 21 I mean, we don't have to necessarily fuel 22 their addiction either. 23 So, some basic practical ideas are, those, as 24 well as continuing conversation. 25 I loved what the -- you know, the gentleman 1 that lost his son, said. 2 My children are, like, Here she goes again. 3 And that's what they're gonna have to hear. 4 This disease runs in my family. 5 I am a recovering person. I live it, 6 I breathe it, I walk it. And coming from that 7 perspective, I know the importance of talking about 8 it. 9 And the piece that I think we don't talk 10 about enough is, if it runs in a family, how, just, 11 you know, the chances are so much higher. 12 So, go to your -- call the Suffolk County 13 Prevention Resource Center, or go to LIPRC.org. 14 The women at that organization will so help 15 you start a coalition, and help you build. 16 It's a lot of work of reaching out to 17 senators, mayors, county legislators, town 18 supervisors, business owners. 19 We went to the Beautification Society, the 20 Kiwanis Club, the Rotary Club. We went to every 21 organization and person that we possibly could. 22 And our first meeting were 40 people, main 23 players in the community. 24 Senator Phil Boyle has -- he has sent 25 Ann Parmalee [ph.] to every one of our meetings. 1 She's attended, she's been a support. She was a 2 judge on our pizza-box-campaign art work. 3 Like, we're just getting some great stuff out 4 there to just raise awareness. 5 The issues are hard enough. 6 The campaigns to raise the awareness can be 7 fluffy. They can be soft. 8 You know, so, I just support you. 9 And, if you don't have a coalition in your 10 community, start one. 11 If you have any questions, come and -- you 12 know, you can go to our website, www.LindyCares.org. 13 My phone number is on the website. You can call me 14 personally and I will bring you to their office. 15 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you, 16 Jennifer Leibowitz [ph.], for the question. 17 Thank you very much. 18 [Applause.] 19 SENATOR MARTINS: And, Rene, to wrap up on 20 this point. 21 RENE FEITCHER: Yeah, thank you. 22 When we first started the county's coalition, 23 the very first activity we did was coalition 24 building, and we brought coalitions from all over 25 the island. We were incredibly impressed with the 1 network. 2 But what I wanted to leave you with, is that 3 many of these really good groups -- 4 Like, for me, I know Nassau really well, 5 Nassau. But my wife is active on the North Port -- 6 East North Port Coalition. 7 -- they were started by SAMSHA, which 8 provides incredible grants. 9 Now, the last round of grants was missed 10 about two weeks ago, but there's a new round called 11 the "Mentoring SAMSHA Grant." 12 For those who would like to form their 13 coalition, and haven't done such a hot job on 14 getting an application in, there are grants that are 15 not -- they're due by April 23rd. Provides you 16 $78,000 to help a burgeoning group pull together and 17 get it done. 18 And Robin McKinnon and the recovery group 19 have been absolutely fabulous. 20 But, I think that's one of the real key 21 things that's sustainable, that keeps the momentum 22 of this battle that we're fighting, and save a 23 couple of lives. 24 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you very much. 25 DR. JAMES DOLAN: I just want to make a very 1 quick point, if the microphone ever turns on. 2 Yeah. 3 Okay, so, in Nassau County, we have contracts 4 with 29 of the 56 school districts, where we fund 5 social-worker salaries in those school districts. 6 The social workers, as a requirement of that 7 contract, are required to deliver evidence-based 8 programming during the course of the school day. 9 They're required to do coalition building in their 10 community. 11 So, again, as an advocacy team here, I think 12 we should look to further that ability on our part, 13 to put social workers, funded, to do prevention 14 services in each of our schools, and do that kind of 15 community coalition building in Nassau and in 16 Suffolk. 17 SENATOR MARTINS: So to wrap up: 18 One, let's work through our schools. Let's 19 make sure our schools have the resources available 20 to them, so that they can provide, as part of the 21 curricula, not only an opportunity to bring our kids 22 along, integrate them in education, but, also, 23 after-school clubs, and other activities that are 24 school-related. 25 Two, let's bring our parents together and 1 civic groups together to work on this. Parents have 2 to be involved. It can't just be our children, but 3 parents have to be involved, as well. 4 And, certainly, if we're able to work 5 together with our kids, with our parents, and with 6 all of the support structures and groups that we 7 have, as represented here on this panel, we've taken 8 a huge step forward. 9 We're gonna take a break. 10 It was originally supposed to be a half-hour 11 break. 12 I'm going to ask, again, as part of an effort 13 to continue this dialogue, let's try to get together 14 in about 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and see if we can't 15 continue this. 16 I will also point out that I have some 17 requests for statements; that people want to make 18 statements. 19 There will be an opportunity to make 20 statements further on in the program. 21 Thank you very much. 22 (A recess was taken.) 23 (The forum resumed, as follows:) 24 SENATOR MARTINS: We'd like to keep this to a 25 Q&A format, so, if there's a statement you'd like to 1 make, and, certainly, you're free to do so, we'd ask 2 that you prepare the statement and send it to 3 Senator Boyle's office, where it will be included in 4 the record. 5 Aside from that, just to keep this format 6 going and give everybody an opportunity to have 7 their question asked, we're gonna stick to the Q&A 8 format, as we go forward. 9 If there is time at the end, certainly, we 10 will afford the opportunity, but I think the 11 give-and-take has been very interesting thus far. 12 And I think it's been important that we continue 13 with that format. 14 Three topics that we're going to address now 15 in this session -- excuse me, four, we're going to 16 start with legislation, then we're gonna go to 17 medical/pharmaceutical, then treatment, recovery, 18 and prevention, and then, lastly, law enforcement, 19 before we close out. 20 This session is being filmed, as was the one 21 this morning. It is available, and will be 22 available, on the New York Senate website. So if 23 anyone is interested in accessing this, you'll 24 certainly be able to do so by going to the 25 New York State Senate website. It should be 1 available by tomorrow on the website, as will all of 2 the 12 sessions that will be held across 3 New York State. 4 And I was remiss earlier in not recognizing a 5 colleague in government, Eden Laikin is here. 6 Eden is the chair of the Nassau County -- 7 [Applause.] 8 SENATOR MARTINS: Yes, she deserves that, and 9 much more. 10 Eden is the Chair of the Nassau County 11 Prescription Drug Abuse Task Force. And she 12 certainly has been no stranger to the issue of 13 opioid abuse and heroin abuse, right out there on 14 front edge of this issue, here on behalf of 15 County Executive Mangano. 16 Eden, thanks for being here. 17 So let's start with our discussion on 18 legislation, and I'll pose this question, well, to 19 Senator Boyle: 20 This year we have been -- had more discussion 21 than ever focusing on the heroin epidemic throughout 22 the state of New York. We have introduced proposed 23 legislation, and held hearings and forums, such as 24 this one. 25 As Chair of this Task Force, and Chairman of 1 the Senate Committee on Alcoholism and Drug Abuse, 2 perhaps you can give us an overview of recently 3 passed and currently proposed legislation pertaining 4 to this epidemic, and your thoughts on where we 5 should go -- direction we should take, as a 6 Legislature, as we approach the end of this 7 legislative session. 8 SENATOR BOYLE: Thank you, Jack. 9 And I would start out by saying that, as many 10 of you know, we recently passed, the New York State 11 Senate, on time, for the fourth year in a row. 12 Good for us. 13 It's sad when you have to brag about 14 something like that. 15 But, as part of the legislation, though, as 16 part of state budget, we did increase funding for 17 the -- for heroin and opioid prevention and 18 treatment programs. 19 Now, the way the system works, we have 20 one-House bills. 21 The Senate passes our version, the Assembly 22 passes their version, and then they meet to come 23 upon the perfect, or as best as they can get, final 24 state budget. 25 In our State Senate version of the budget, we 1 actually put in place $7.45 million towards 2 prevention and treatment of heroin. 3 The Assembly, unfortunately, they only put a 4 million dollars in, which is a good amount of money, 5 but, you know, not as much as we'd like to see. 6 In the final analysis, we passed 7 $2.8 million, additional. 8 Now, there's, obviously, tens of millions of 9 dollars being spent on prevention and treatment in 10 New York State already, but we increased that 11 funding by 2.8 million. 12 Good step in the right direction. Not as far 13 as we'd like to go. 14 And that's actually why we're having this 15 panel today, and we'll have the other forums 16 throughout the state, to find out, as we talk in 17 this afternoon's discussion, about the most 18 effective programs, treatments, that we -- we have 19 to think of the things that are working now, and 20 things that we think will work in future, to where 21 to put those additional funds, and, to best combat 22 this heroin problem statewide. 23 Another piece of legislation which was passed 24 recently, was Senator Hannon's bill regarding 25 Naloxone. I always call it "Narcan," but there's 1 other different -- I know that's a brand name, the 2 legislation. 3 We started out a couple of years ago with the 4 pilot projects in Nassau and Suffolk county, where 5 first responders had more access to Naloxone. 6 It worked out so well, and there was another 7 county upstate that it worked out so well in, that 8 we now put it statewide, to get more access to first 9 responders. 10 We want to make it as wide as possible for 11 family, friends, community members, to have access 12 to Narcan, and training. 13 And I would add, parenthetically, for those 14 of you who did not see the flyer up there, we're 15 doing a Naloxone and Narcan training program on 16 Tuesday, April 22nd, from 6 to 7 p.m., at the 17 Deer Park Fire Department. 18 I know that many of you have already had the 19 training, but for those of you who have not, it's 20 well worth it. 21 As a former EMT myself, I've seen Narcan work 22 as a true miracle drug, where it saves lives. 23 We have to talk about getting treatment to 24 people, these patients need in the long term, but it 25 does save lives in the immediate situation. 1 And that legislation was passed in the 2 State Senate and the State Assembly with broad 3 bipartisan support. Everyone agrees we need to make 4 Naloxone more readily available to people throughout 5 the state. 6 One of the pieces of legislation that we are 7 talking about, and we've discussed a little bit 8 today, was Senator Hannon's bill on mandating 9 insurance coverage for treatment services. 10 That is not passed yet. We're looking to do 11 this. 12 And I can tell you, Jack, that, just in this 13 morning's discussion -- I can't thank everyone here 14 enough, the audience, the panelists -- I've been 15 taking copious notes, and probably come up with four 16 or five ideas for pieces of legislation that will 17 probably be part of the final -- final report that 18 we're gonna issue on June 1st, as part of the 19 Heroin Task Force. 20 And if the other 11 forums are half as good 21 as this one, then we're gonna have a great report, 22 and come out with some very effective and serious 23 legislation in the coming part of the Legislature's 24 legislative season. 25 Thank you. 1 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 2 Thank you very much. 3 [Applause.] 4 SENATOR MARTINS: You know, he's absolutely 5 right, this is -- there is no silver bullet when we 6 deal with this particular issue. There are multiple 7 facets. 8 And I think, if there's anything we've heard 9 here so far today, it's that there are going to have 10 to be various ways that this is approached. 11 It's not just going to be about providing 12 additional funding for those groups that address the 13 issue head-on, but it's also going be a challenge to 14 our State Education Department to incorporate 15 curricula in a -- incorporate drug abuse and opioid 16 abuse and heroin abuse, in a holistic way, into our 17 curricula statewide, so that our schools will begin 18 taking on this challenge. 19 There are many fronts, and we've heard about 20 them. And, certainly, this is very helpful. 21 The measures that are out there, we'll 22 continue to support, we'll continue to move them 23 forward. 24 There are law-enforcement measures: stricter 25 rules. Penalties for selling drugs, people over the 1 age of 18, to people under the age of 14, because 2 that's the reality today. It's no longer, you know, 3 teenagers. It's 12 -- 11-, 12-, 13-, 14-year-olds 4 that are getting access to these drugs, and we have 5 to be prepared to deal with those consequences, as 6 well. 7 You know, one of the questions that came to 8 us as we were on break, had to do with just the 9 realities of a parent of a child who is addicted, 10 and, getting treatment, access to treatment, and 11 being able to mandatorily provide for treatment for 12 a child. 13 And many people here in the room may be well 14 aware of the fact that a child can, at 14, 15, 15 16 years of age, walk out of a treatment facility 16 and decide they don't want to be treated, and 17 there's very little, if anything, that a parent can 18 do. 19 I don't think people out there understand 20 that that is a reality; that when we're dealing with 21 minors, not only kids over the age of 18, but when 22 we're dealing with children, that it is 23 extraordinarily difficult if they refuse to 24 participate in a program. 25 So there was a question that came in, 1 specifically from a parent from Lindenhurst. 2 And I'm gonna ask -- I'm gonna ask John Venza 3 if he'll give us his thoughts on this, and, perhaps, 4 avenues that, you know, the State can take, 5 legislatively, to try and allow for that family 6 structure, parents, with regard to, you know, 7 obviously, loved ones who they want to see get 8 treatment, not be thwarted simply because a child 9 has chosen not to participate. 10 How do we deal with that? 11 JOHN VENZA: Thank you for the question. 12 It's a very real situation. I think a lot of 13 folks in the audience have experienced it. 14 I see it every day in our facilities that 15 kids want to self-discharge. They want to leave 16 against clinical advice. 17 You know, we intervene. We have their peers. 18 We have a room full of staff. Sometimes we're lucky 19 enough get a probation officer to come up to the 20 facility and assist. 21 And, yet, at the end of the day, if the kid 22 maintains, the child leaves treatment and ends 23 treatment, ultimately, by regulation right now, the 24 primary patient is the adolescent, the young person. 25 And regulations say: Treatment is voluntary, 1 and I may choose to end my treatment at any time. 2 It's -- we have that in all of our outpatient 3 and inpatient facilities that are OASAS-licensed. 4 So this is a very real reality. 5 I think an incremental change, Senator, that 6 may be something that we could revisit, if I may, 7 respectfully, is, some years back, the legislation 8 around PINS was modified. 9 And I think the ability for a school or a 10 parent to expeditiously get a child into 11 family court for some assistance, because they need 12 the help, was changed, where they had to show a 13 diversion process first, mandatorily. 14 And I think folks were back and forth with 15 it, you know, and nobody wants to necessarily see 16 their child in court. 17 But I think what we've seen over the years 18 is, a lot more kids progress further out of control. 19 Parents saying: I can't do anything. The 20 process of diversion is taking way too long. I've 21 tried many of the things they're asking us to do. 22 The child is progressing in their mental-health 23 symptomology, their substance-abuse symptomology. 24 They're finding themselves very out of control. 25 And, unfortunately, an unintended consequence 1 of that legislation, is they end up in court anyway, 2 the criminal court, and then they get mandated into 3 treatment. 4 And I think if, you know, we could maybe 5 revisit that, there may be an incremental change 6 that could really help assist parents in getting 7 their young folks into program. 8 SENATOR MARTINS: I appreciate that, because, 9 again, as a parent of a couple of teenagers, and a 10 few on the way to being teenagers, you know, the 11 thought that, somehow, I want what's best for my 12 child, and I want her to have access to the best 13 treatment, because I want her to get help. 14 And the fact that, as an adolescent, as a 15 person who doesn't have an understanding of the need 16 for treatment and the need to go through the 17 process, that they can remove themself from the 18 process, would leave me as a parent with absolutely 19 no option, other than to throw my hands in the air 20 and say: It's beyond me. 21 There has to be a better answer, and the 22 answer can't be that, the State, the laws, won't 23 allow a parent of a minor child the ability to 24 prepare, protect, that child, even if it means 25 protecting that child from herself. 1 Dr. Reynolds, what do you think? 2 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: So I think, back at a 3 time when the progression of things perhaps took a 4 little bit longer, some of these measures that we've 5 looked at made sense. And we looked at the courts 6 and said, Look, there's a pretty predictable 7 progression when it comes to young people and their 8 use and their addiction. 9 Point A to Point B now happens, like that 10 [snaps fingers], and families run out of options 11 very, very quickly. 12 And to John's last point, you know, the issue 13 of the criminal justice system: You know, one of 14 the surest ways, in fact, the only sure way, to get 15 treatment paid for, is to have your child arrested. 16 And so it's built into many managed-care 17 contracts, that if there's an arrest, then the 18 insurer must pay; whereas, outside of that, insurers 19 consistently refuse to pay. 20 So we're in a position, where, (a) we're 21 waiting for that are kid to, quote/unquote, hit 22 bottom, whatever that might mean. And for a lot of 23 kids, "bottom" means an overdose; 24 And also saying that our only solution to 25 this, when you've run through other options, and 1 you've sat down and had the conversation, and 2 brought in folks from the panel and everybody else 3 to have a conversation with that family, is: Okay, 4 have them arrested. 5 And then we wind up coaching people about, 6 when to do it, what to get them charged with, and, 7 you know, let's do it at a time when they don't have 8 significant quantity on them, so they're not in 9 Vinny's place for a long time. 10 That's craziness; and that's one of the 11 reasons why we're spending $255 million to build a 12 new jail. 13 There's an easier solution to this. 14 So I think John is exactly right, we've got 15 take a look at -- 16 [Applause.] 17 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: -- we've got to take a 18 look at what we're doing, and how we're addressing 19 this. 20 And to Angie's point, this really gets to: 21 Do we view addiction as a health problem or as a 22 criminal justice issue? 23 And while addiction has criminal justice 24 components, and sometimes the resultant behavior 25 interfaces with the criminal justice system, this is 1 a health problem. 2 Trying to force a criminal justice solution 3 onto a health problem, historically, hasn't worked 4 for us. 5 [Applause.] 6 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 7 You know, I think we can all draw the line 8 somewhere, but I think, and I would agree with you, 9 addiction is a health problem. The drug sale is a 10 criminal justice issue. 11 And if we're beginning to come to that 12 conclusion ourselves, I think we're in a much better 13 place. 14 But these forums are incredibly important, 15 because I would tell you, that 95 percent of the 16 public out there doesn't understand what we just 17 discussed. 18 95 percent of the public, who, thankfully, 19 has never had to go through that, and the 20 frustration of having to, literally, wrestle with 21 their own government, so that they can have the 22 opportunity to protect their child. They don't 23 understand that. 24 And I think the more we bring that to light, 25 the more likely there's going to be that we can 1 actually effectuate some meaningful change and get 2 something done about it. 3 You know, one of questions that came up, 4 also, and I'll throw it out there and ask if anyone 5 wants to take it: 6 I have a child, a 17-year-old, a 14-year-old, 7 who are teenagers; the others are younger. 8 If I wanted, as part of my child's, my 9 14-year-old's, physical exam, if I wanted my child 10 to be tested for drug use, you know, as part of 11 their analysis when they take blood and they check 12 for cholesterol and they check for other things, if 13 I wanted my child to be tested for drugs, as a 14 parent, can I do that? 15 Doctor. 16 DR. FRANK DOWLING: You may be able to, but 17 in my experience, there's a few obstacles. 18 One is, as we've talked about with other 19 issues, the patient has to know, and they have to 20 agree. 21 The other is, as much as I wish this were not 22 the case, the fact is, drug screening is not a 23 perfect science. And there are false positives with 24 the office-based easier and less-expensive testing. 25 The more detailed, sophisticated testing that 1 gets sent out to a lab, to really know for sure, to 2 confirm, is more expensive. And, again, plans don't 3 want to cover it. 4 And it becomes a very complicated issue, just 5 to get a drug screen. 6 In my opinion, and I said this to someone 7 earlier, if I were the commissioner of mental health 8 or the commissioner of health, I would probably 9 mandate that anybody who is in any psychiatric 10 treatment anywhere, could go for a drug screen on 11 admission to that, and -- and then, randomly, or 12 more, depending on if they have substance-use 13 issues. 14 However, you'd also have to mandate that 15 no one can be refused treatment or kicked out of a 16 program because there's a positive, because that's 17 the fear, and that's why people don't agree. 18 But it would be very difficult just to get 19 that done. The doctor may not know how to order it. 20 If they do order it, who's gonna pay for it? 21 And, then, what do I do with this positive; 22 is it accurate, or not? 23 It's actually more complicated than I wish it 24 were. 25 SENATOR MARTINS: Well, and, again, and I'm 1 throwing it out there for anyone who wishes to 2 participate, but the question I'm getting at is: 3 When I spoke about my 17-year-old and my 4 14-year-old, how about my 8-year-old? At what point 5 do you need a patient's consent? 6 And I'm not -- look, I'm not advocating that 7 we drug-test 8-year-olds, but I'm getting -- I'm 8 trying to make a point here, that at some point, 9 "at some point," we have to understand what we're up 10 against. 11 And if there is an epidemic, and we're all 12 convinced -- we're all convinced that we have an 13 epidemic of truly, truly significant proportions, 14 then we have to be prepared to do things about it. 15 And if that means getting out of our comfort 16 zone, why shouldn't we be advocating for having 17 uniform drug testing as part of a physical, as 18 radical as that may sound, so that a parent has the 19 opportunity to understand, when their child is -- 20 has been, you know, under the influence of drugs, or 21 taking drugs, so that they can intercede and help 22 that child receive the help at an earlier age, as 23 opposed to dealing with the consequences down the 24 road? 25 And I'm being provocative intentionally here: 1 Why shouldn't we do that? 2 [Applause.] 3 SENATOR MARTINS: Yes, Ms. Brown. 4 KATHY BROWN: I think there's another piece 5 to that. 6 I know we have a few doctors here on the 7 panel who are very interested in addiction; and, so, 8 have all the knowledge about addiction. 9 I'm gonna toss out: You might go to a doctor 10 and they might do a drug test on you, and identify 11 that you have a problem with addiction. 12 Do they have a list of referrals there, as if 13 they would have a list of referrals if you had a 14 GI problem or an eye problem? 15 I think, and I'm part of the medical 16 profession, we're not well educated about addiction. 17 And we are all agreeing here that this is a 18 health issue; and, yet, the medical profession isn't 19 fully on board. You know, they don't have the 20 knowledge. 21 In Suffolk County, I know we have 22 Esprit [ph.], and a lot of the addictions' people 23 are involved in educating the medical profession 24 about this. 25 But I think we need to do more, even. 1 I think we need to get out there and try to 2 convince the medical profession that this is a 3 health issue; that they need to get on board, they 4 need to have the knowledge, they need to have the 5 wherewithal to do the referrals and to have people 6 treated. 7 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 8 [Applause.] 9 DR. JAMES DOLAN: On that point, and 10 consistent with what we were talking about earlier 11 about the importance of destigmatizing this work 12 that we do, and destigmatizing the fact that one 13 might have a substance-abuse condition, this 14 issue -- or, this service should be incorporated, or 15 as I said earlier, integrated, into the general 16 physical health care that is delivered to our 17 clientele. 18 That would be one of the easiest ways to 19 destigmatize the delivery of this care; that one 20 doesn't have to go to a discreetly located 21 chemical-dependency program. That they can receive 22 that service at a primary-care center, where the 23 chemical-dependency service, and even the 24 mental-health services, is integrated into the 25 general physical health care. 1 The question, or the issue, about how to 2 attain emotional, and maintain emotional, wellness 3 should be a part of any wellness-promotion effort 4 that we are a part of as a treating community. 5 SENATOR MARTINS: Yes, Arthur. 6 ARTHUR MURR: It is all about the stigma, 7 though. When you bring it down to it, that's what 8 it is. 9 If it were, if your child could potentially 10 have diabetes, nobody would have a problem with 11 having them tested. If they thought they were going 12 to have a child with -- nobody would have a problem 13 with it. 14 It's, this; it's this situation. It's 15 this -- that, keep it under the covers, don't say 16 anything about it. Don't do -- not don't do 17 anything about it, but, keep it under the covers. 18 Don't make it widely available. 19 If you remove the stigma, suddenly, it 20 becomes part of your general health. It becomes 21 part of what you normally are going to do. You're 22 going to find out how your child is. 23 You give blood today. If you go to a blood 24 bank and you give blood today, they test you for 25 AIDS. You signed a consent on that. You get tested 1 for AIDS. You get tested for all about sorts of 2 things. They will tell you if you have anything. 3 You go to a doctor, your kid has a physical, 4 and nobody's gonna test them for whatever else? 5 They may tell you you have diabetes, but they 6 won't tell you that he's on -- that he's sniffing 7 glue, or doing something else? 8 It's just -- it's crazy. 9 We were -- we used to find doctors, when we 10 would go, if we had something, and they would check 11 him. They wouldn't even ask for his consent. They 12 knew -- you know, it's amazing, when you talk to 13 somebody and you get personal with them, you get a 14 different reaction, than if you walk in and just -- 15 you know, as like patient -- doctor-patient, you 16 know, you get close, you try to understand, they try 17 to understand you, they hear what your story is, 18 they hear what's going on. 19 Suddenly, the world kind of opens up and 20 they're willing to do things. 21 I mean, if Matt ever went into a hospital for 22 something, we'd go up to them and say: He's got a 23 substance-abuse problem. Be careful what you're 24 giving him, be careful what's going on. 25 You know, and they said: No problem, we'll 1 be careful about that we. We -- and thanks for 2 telling us. We're gonna do that. 3 You have to get personal with them. 4 You shouldn't have to do that. It should be 5 part of the general course of events, but, that's 6 what we wound up having to do: you'd have to get 7 personal with the doctor or somebody else who would 8 do something to help you. 9 Were they risking something on their own? 10 Yes, they were. 11 But they also were compassionate, and they 12 felt that it was important to do. 13 SENATOR MARTINS: So the issue is: If we 14 look at -- 15 ARTHUR MURR: As a -- 16 SENATOR MARTINS: -- this as a mainstream -- 17 ARTHUR MURR: Correct. 18 SENATOR MARTINS: -- health issue, like, 19 high blood pressure, cholesterol. 20 ARTHUR MURR: Right. 21 SENATOR MARTINS: -- diabetes, any of the 22 other health issues that we would want our 23 health-care provider to, not only identify, but then 24 to provide access to different modalities. 25 ARTHUR MURR: Suddenly, the barrier goes 1 away. 2 SENATOR MARTINS: And then there is no -- 3 there is no reason why we would differentiate 4 between one and the other -- 5 ARTHUR MURR: Right. 6 SENATOR MARTINS: -- because if it is health 7 issue, then it should be treated like any other 8 health issue. 9 ARTHUR MURR: Right, the barriers go away. 10 Suddenly, it's becoming -- it's part of your general 11 society. It's part of what you -- what generally 12 happens. 13 I mean, think about -- think about AIDS. 14 Nobody was going to -- nobody wanted to know 15 if this was going on. This was that whole thing, 16 "under the cover." 17 Okay, that's part of general society right 18 now. Okay? 19 People -- you can get tested for it, you can 20 have this, it's not a question. 21 This, there's still a question. 22 This, there's still a stigma. 23 This, people go, "Ah, no, no." 24 That's wrong. 25 SENATOR MARTINS: And there's plenty of 1 opportunity to intervene and to get help -- 2 ARTHUR MURR: [Unintelligible.] 3 SENATOR MARTINS: -- and provide help to a 4 person who is on the wrong path when it comes to 5 substance abuse. 6 There's an opportunity to intercede much 7 earlier point along that path, where the 8 opportunities for recovery are so much surer. 9 ARTHUR MURR: And it's not just -- and it's 10 not just the early ones. 11 I mean, we all about talk about it. You 12 know, are we -- the kids, the -- and, you know, 13 believe me, you have to go education -- you have to 14 educate the kids. You have to do all that. 15 But, you know, my son was 18. 16 I mean, I've heard parents, you know, their 17 kids -- their children, quote/unquote, are 23, 25. 18 They need it just as much. They don't have the 19 education. They need it just as much. 20 And that help is there. 21 You know, it could be from a loved one from 22 them, it could be from a parent, it could be from 23 anybody. 24 It just should be part of the general health 25 of what goes on in your society. 1 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 2 You know, we have a question here regarding 3 sober homes, recovery homes, and the need for the 4 State to do more in terms of providing, not only 5 oversight, but regulations, having to do with -- 6 with recovery homes. 7 How should we do that? 8 What are things that the State can do, that 9 perhaps it isn't doing right now, that would take us 10 in a direction that would provide some real -- some 11 real relief, and some opportunities, you know, to 12 make a difference? 13 Anthony Rizzuto, what do you think? 14 ANTHONY RIZZUTO: I think that, you know, 15 historically, they -- OASAS really hasn't wanted to 16 have too much to do with it, with the relief being, 17 that we are a -- we don't license sober homes. 18 That's not treatment. We oversee treatment and 19 prevention. 20 But I think that it would be beneficial in 21 many areas, because if you have some kind of 22 oversight, the chances of people complying with 23 certain criterias and certain guidelines would be 24 much more readily. 25 So, I think that -- I don't know exactly why; 1 I know we've had this conversation a couple of 2 times, and money came up as an issue. "We don't 3 have the staff to be able to do that." 4 But if you take a look at what's going on 5 right now with sober homes, and not just in 6 Long Island, go into the five borough, it is scary 7 with what's happening. 8 So, as we spoke about it earlier, it being a 9 crucial part of the continuum, and being able to put 10 people in an environment where they didn't have to 11 worry about opening up a refrigerator and there 12 being a beer in there, or they didn't have to worry 13 about the person that's living in the house with 14 them smoking crack, or doing whatever it is that 15 they're doing. 16 So I think that, I've heard about that push. 17 And I know Senator Zeldin -- not Senator Zeldin -- 18 yes, Senator Zeldin, I believe, had put forward some 19 legislation with that. 20 I don't know exactly where it is. I know 21 that there has been some discussion on it. 22 I know it hasn't been received too well, in 23 terms of -- from OASAS, at least what I've heard. 24 So I would say that it would be something 25 that would be beneficial, because it would put 1 people -- there would be oversight to it, and there 2 would be certain criteria in place. 3 SENATOR MARTINS: Steve Margolies, what do 4 you think? 5 STEVE MARGOLIES: I think -- I actually 6 agree. 7 I think one of the issues with sober homes is 8 that, you know, from -- and we refer a lot of 9 clients through -- from -- to sober homes from our 10 programs. But one of the main issues is, there is 11 no centralized oversight, there's no regulations. 12 And while some are very well-intended, and 13 some are excellent, some really do good work, it 14 opens it up for all about sorts of things to happen. 15 It can be misuse of funds. There can be 16 people that are doing it to try to just, you know, 17 make a quick buck. 18 And on the other end of it, there is no core 19 curriculum, there is no set regulation, of what 20 happens in a sober home, and how it's overseen. 21 So I think, you know, putting that in place 22 would actually, at least standardize, so we know 23 what the expectation is when somebody is gonna be 24 referred to a sober home: You're gonna get a, b, c, 25 and d. 1 Maybe it's tied into an outpatient program, 2 or something, but I think that the lack of 3 standardization and the lack of regulation has 4 actually -- has made it this sort of nebulous area 5 that no one can quantify and say, This is what it 6 is. 7 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 8 Senator Boyle. 9 SENATOR BOYLE: I think Anthony and Steve 10 were very diplomatic in saying that OASAS doesn't 11 want anything to do with regulating these sober home 12 or recovery homes. 13 [Applause.] 14 SENATOR BOYLE: I'm a co-sponsor of 15 Senator Zeldin's bill, and I have been involved with 16 numerous meeting on this topic. And I can tell you, 17 as someone who -- I'm fairly new to the Senate, but 18 served in the State Assembly for a number of years, 19 and saw in the district that I represented, 20 sober homes, in certain communities, where, 21 basically, these people came in, bought a house, 22 packed 30 people, or more, into the home, took their 23 social services money, their Medicaid, and paid off 24 the mortgage in less than three years. They were 25 much more interested in making the money than 1 helping these people who needed treatment. 2 And I do think that we need to pass 3 legislation. It is a tough -- a tough situation 4 because we need to negotiate how it's going to work, 5 but, these homes do need to be regulated, and good 6 organizations, like Seafield and others, do the 7 right things in terms of treatment, and providing a 8 safe, a protective environment, for people with 9 addiction needs. 10 The way it's going to happen, the 11 legislation's not there yet, but I can promise you 12 that, as part of this Task Force, we're gonna take a 13 serious look at that. 14 Thank you. 15 [Applause.] 16 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 17 Yes, Doctor. 18 DR. FRANK DOWLING: If I could, I wanted to 19 make a brief comment about this. 20 The sober homes, everything that's been said 21 so far, I agree, but, another area that I don't 22 think people may be as aware of, there's a whole 23 system of supported housing for people with chronic 24 psychiatric illnesses. 25 And, one of the common obstacles is, these 1 homes will have, as entry criteria, you cannot have 2 a substance-use disorder, or, you must be drug- and 3 alcohol-free for six months. 4 Well, half or more, and it's likely more than 5 just half, of anyone with a chronic psychiatric 6 illness, and this is not just schizophrenia, it's a 7 psychotic illness -- bipolar depression, et cetera, 8 posttraumatic stress -- have a substance-use 9 disorder. 10 A person can't get sober unless the whole 11 package is together. 12 So one of the things that needs to happen, 13 it's not just what we're talking about with 14 sober houses, in my opinion, and I respect that some 15 would disagree strongly with me, there should be no 16 Office of Mental Health-funded housing that does not 17 accept people with a substance-use disorder, and 18 there should be no automatic "you must be sober for 19 six months." 20 It should only be: Are you sober today, or 21 some reasonable period of time, and are you 22 addressing it in your plan of care? 23 [Applause.] 24 DR. FRANK DOWLING: But, when we were talking 25 about drug screening before, I'm the medical 1 director of a clinic for people with chronic 2 psychiatric illnesses, and, we'll get drug 3 screening, and we tell people outright, We're never 4 gonna fire you as a patient because there's a 5 positive. We just want to know, because we know if 6 you're using, it's hard to be totally honest with 7 us. 8 But we're afraid that someone from the 9 residence is gonna press them to get the results, 10 and if there's a positive, will throw them out. 11 So, that type of thing needs to change in the 12 housing, wherever it is, in this whole spectrum of 13 addiction and psychiatric illnesses. 14 SENATOR MARTINS: And isn't that -- isn't 15 that part of what we just discussed: the transition 16 from addiction as a law-enforcement issue, to a 17 health issue? 18 And as we transition from law enforcement to 19 health, perhaps people will be more forthright and 20 welcoming of the help that they'll be able to get in 21 the health-care context, and less concerned about 22 the -- the -- you know, the legalities and the 23 illegalities associated, and the penalties 24 associated, with the drug use. 25 STEVE MARGOLIES: I was just going to add, 1 the other thing I think we need to see change in, 2 there is talk about changing regulations for certain 3 treatment programs, to allow services to be provided 4 outside the treatment program. 5 And every other, basically, you know, OMH, 6 OPWDD, there's provisions to allow case management 7 or services in the home or in the field. 8 And our field, substance-abuse treatment 9 specifically, does not have that right now. 10 And I think that, if you're talking about 11 putting people in stable environments and housing, 12 it's essential that we also have the ability to 13 provide services at those sites, to meet people 14 where they are, rather than just wait for them to 15 come in to see us. 16 I know there's some talk about doing this 17 very soon, but I'd like to see it move ahead sooner 18 than later. 19 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 20 Thank you very much. 21 You know, I have a -- there's a comment here, 22 from Claudia Friesel [ph.] 23 Claudia? 24 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: She's left. 25 SENATOR MARTINS: She did. 1 Then let me -- I will paraphrase, because 2 it's valid. You know, we've all about been down 3 this road before, and Claudia asks, you know: 4 Once the hype around heroin abuse goes away, 5 how do we know that this Task Force is actually 6 going to stick around, and, is committed to getting 7 this done? 8 It's the natural question at an event like 9 this: How do we know that there's gonna be 10 follow-through? 11 Let me just say that, Senator Boyle's 12 Committee and the Task Force has set June 1st as the 13 deadline for recommendations. 14 Not a year from now, not 2 years from now; 15 literally, less than two months from now, which 16 gives us all about an opportunity, in less than 17 2 months, after 12 hearings during the next, less 18 than 60 days, to evaluate that plan, hopefully, 19 support the recommendations of the Task Force in our 20 individual capacities and in our community 21 capacities back home, to ensure that the 22 recommendations there will be able to be acted upon, 23 and have the necessary consensus around them, so 24 that as we approach the end of session, there is 25 real opportunity for us to do something special, 1 based on the recommendations and the suggestions 2 that we've heard, not only from the panel, but 3 certainly from the audience as well. 4 So I think if there's anything that I can say 5 to that point, is, there's a very short timeline 6 here, and that the recommendations that are gonna be 7 made are going to be far longer lasting and far more 8 important, you know, than the 2-year or 2-month or 9 20-year timeline that we have. 10 It's a two-month time line, we have plenty of 11 time to do it. We're gonna need everyone's help to 12 make sure that we pass, and have the necessary 13 consensus, and political consensus, to get this 14 done. 15 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: I have an FYI, 16 [inaudible --] 17 SENATOR MARTINS: Why don't we do this, just 18 in fairness, because -- and I -- Elizabeth, I do 19 appreciate it. 20 When we -- if we have room at the end, 21 I will -- I promise you I'll circle back to you. 22 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: No, it's the 23 petition -- 24 SENATOR MARTINS: No, I understand, but we'll 25 come back, because part of this process is a 1 give-and-take. 2 It's not only educational, but it's the 3 give-and-take, and the opportunity to go through 4 these questions, and allow for these panelists to be 5 able to offer their opinion, so that we can, 6 hopefully, craft some legislation. 7 Dr. Reynolds, do you feel that there's an 8 area where we are lacking in the treatment programs? 9 Once we have an addict in our care, how can 10 we more adequately serve them, that they may achieve 11 a full recovery? 12 Broad question. 13 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Awesome. 14 SENATOR MARTINS: Run with it. 15 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: So, look, before I -- 16 there's a couple things that I would say, and one of 17 them relates to the time frame that you just 18 outlined. 19 So, if there's a report that's gonna come out 20 on June 1st, which, of course, is ambitious, 21 I worry, because you guys are all about going home 22 come June 19th, God willing. 23 And I will tell you, that when it comes to 24 this insurance bill, we all can't wait another year. 25 And so I would say, to the extent that you 1 can speed up this process, I think you have 2 consensus in this room -- 3 [Applause.] 4 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: -- and perhaps among 5 your colleague, we gotta get it done. 6 I can't imagine us going through another year 7 without that in place. 8 But here's what we know: 9 You know, Senator Hannon made some comments 10 earlier about, you know, figuring out what works, 11 and kind of this being a new landscape. 12 In reality, we know a lot about treatment, 13 and we know a lot about how treatment works. There 14 are very clear criteria when we place patients. 15 There's a heavy-duty science base when it comes to 16 treatment. 17 We know that the timeliness of the 18 intervention makes a big difference. We know that 19 matching somebody's treatment with where they're at, 20 in terms of their disease process, is absolutely 21 critical. 22 And more than anything, we know that an 23 adequate duration of time, and adequate dose, if you 24 will, are absolutely critical to somebody's success. 25 At the same time, we know that we can treat 1 patients until the end of the day. 2 Unless we're addressing the needs of 3 families, we're only doing half the job. 4 [Applause.] 5 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: And almost all of the 6 funding streams and reimbursement mechanisms are 7 patient-focused. 8 And so we go out to families, and we make a 9 very nice-looking referral list, and we throw them 10 at them and say: Here are the referrals, here are 11 the referrals. 12 And there's a dozen treatment centers on 13 there. 14 And if their kid says, "I'm not going," 15 they're back to square one. 16 So -- and a lot of those services have not 17 expanded over time; they've eroded over time. 18 So I'd say, look, involve the family. Make 19 sure we're getting folks the care they need. Make 20 sure there's the follow-up. 21 And the issue about sober housing is 22 absolutely critical. It's part of the treatment 23 continuum. 24 So, there's a couple of things there. Let's 25 make sure that we're doing it the right way. 1 I will tell you, it's my belief, that 2 treatment is less accessible today than it was 3 four years ago. It's less accessible today than it 4 was one year ago. 5 And the one thing we tell families, is that 6 nothing changes if nothing changes. 7 We haven't made a significant change in the 8 way we do treatment with folks in a very long time. 9 We gotta do that. 10 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 11 Yes, Doctor. 12 DR. JAMES DOLAN: I think it's also important 13 to pick up on the comments I made at the 14 introductory stage of this Task Force meeting, is 15 that it's almost -- like, we have to almost use -- 16 move away from the idea of chemical-dependency 17 disorders and mental-health disorders being viewed 18 as separately. 19 We should be referring to them as 20 "behavioral-health disorders." 21 I had a judge reach out to me the other day, 22 and was asking me: What do I do in the instance, 23 when I have a 24-year-old attorney, just out of law 24 school, who's telling me that the person is in 25 chemical-dependency treatment and they're doing 1 fine, and, you should give this person a conditional 2 discharge from -- from the centers? 3 Or, we have -- so the point I'm trying to 4 make, is that, we have drug courts in Nassau County: 5 We have misdemeanor drug court. We have felony drug 6 court. We have a mental-health court. 7 So the mental-health court isn't doing 8 toxicology exams on a regular basis. 9 The drug-treatment court isn't doing 10 comprehensive mental-health examinations, reviews, 11 assessments, consistently. 12 The judges want one place to go, where the 13 entire -- where the full person's needs are going to 14 be addressed in one shot in a behavioral-health 15 court. 16 So, that's an initiative we would like to see 17 get off the ground in Nassau County, when it was 18 mentioned earlier. 19 And I think, throughout the state, that kind 20 of initiative should be supported. 21 The idea that people with serious mental 22 illness, or even non-serious forms of mental 23 illness, have co-occurring disorders, and are going 24 to be applying for housing, that's a given. 25 The high percentage of individuals with 1 psychiatric symptoms are going to have co-occurring 2 disorders. 3 So what happened in terms of the sober homes, 4 is that OASAS didn't pick up the ball in that 5 regard, in terms of the importance of providing for 6 safe, stable supportive housing that promotes the 7 recovery process, so a void was created, which led 8 to the proliferation of the sober homes. 9 The mental-health system did not choose to go 10 that route. They're very much -- they licensed, 11 they fund, housing options of various types, 12 depending upon where the person is in their recovery 13 process. 14 So, there's a model there for the OASAS 15 chemical-dependency community to follow. 16 And it shouldn't be, as was mentioned 17 earlier, if you have a co-occurring condition, that 18 there's going to be more -- it's gonna be more 19 difficult to get into that program or into that 20 housing situation. 21 If a person has a behavioral-health disorder, 22 that should be the criteria for admission. 23 Thank you. 24 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 25 I have a question here from Nora, who has -- 1 NORA: [Inaudible.] 2 SENATOR MARTINS: Pardon? 3 NORA: [Inaudible.] 4 SENATOR MARTINS: Please. 5 NORA: Hi, my name's Nora. 6 Uhm, I just want to thank everybody that's on 7 the panel, and everybody that's come out today. 8 My son is a recovering heroin addict. We've 9 been fighting this disease -- I say "we," because 10 it's a family disease and a family recovery -- since 11 he's 15 years old. 12 And I'm listening to about multifaceted, and 13 I'm saying, "It's amazing," because every person on 14 this panel, in some way, shape, or form, has either 15 directly affected his recovery process, or 16 indirectly by the people that you represent, the 17 schools. 18 He's been in every -- every program out 19 there -- Outreach, Phoenix House -- every single 20 one, right down to the Sheriff's corrections office, 21 he's been there, too. 22 [Laughter.] 23 NORA: And I'm happy to say that, today, 24 he's, uhm -- he's 63 days clean, and he's alive, and 25 in a program. 1 [Applause.] 2 NORA: And I have so much gratitude for that. 3 And even right down to Mr. and Mrs. Murr, 4 parents like you showed me that this was a disease, 5 not good or bad -- we gotta get away from those 6 words -- and helped me to understand the urgency in 7 getting him care. 8 And so I fight. I'm a fighter. 9 And I really just want to address a question 10 to Senator Boyle. 11 13 months ago, my son was hospitalized. He 12 tried to stop using on his own, and he suffers 13 symptoms due to that, he was hospitalized for that. 14 And as Dr. Reynolds had elaborated earlier, 15 this is like a parent's dream, when your kid finally 16 hits a bottom and says, "I want to go to treatment." 17 Before that, every treatment he had been 18 to -- Phoenix House, Outreach -- they were all 19 mandated. I went through PINS, I went through all 20 those things. 21 And, yes, when your kid is 15, you can't make 22 them just go. You have to go through certain stages 23 to get them. 24 And I did those stages, and I would get him 25 there, and he didn't want to stay. And he would 1 complete, and he would leave, and he would use. 2 And it's a progressive, fatal disease, and it 3 progressed. 4 And he was in this hospital bed, he had 5 suffered a seizure, he had had withdrawals, and 6 I thought, Yes, we're there. 7 And to date, no insurance company had paid 8 for any of his treatment. I paid for everything. 9 Long-term coverage is not paid for by your 10 insurance company, I don't care. 11 There are parents here that I know, they 12 would pay with two houses, bankruptcy, like I have, 13 just to have a day back with their kid. 14 And I'm very aware of that, and I don't care 15 it's gone. 16 But here he is in this hospital bed, and he's 17 calling. He called 14 inpatient programs, and the 18 first thing they said was: What's your insurance 19 carrier? 20 And he said, "Fidelis Managed Care," because, 21 by now, he's a Medicaid patient. He's over the age 22 of 18, my funds are gone. 23 And so I think, Ah, he's gonna get care. 24 They wouldn't even do the intake. 25 "No, you won't get approved." 1 "Oh, you won't get approved." 2 So the long story short is, we finally found 3 one that would at least do the process. 4 He went through the process, they accepted 5 him, but when we posed it to the insurance company, 6 they denied. They said he didn't meet medical 7 necessity. 8 And I'm getting to my question. 9 So I said, This is ridiculous. 10 I went to the doctor, and I had the doctor 11 call and appeal; the bedside doctor who's treating 12 my son: Please call this, this insurance company, 13 and speak to their medical officer, who, by the way, 14 has no training in addiction whatsoever, but he's 15 the one making the life-and-death, "life-and-death," 16 decision over my son's life. 17 And they denied him again, and they streeted 18 him. 19 Subsequently, in next year, in the next 20 eleven months, my son overdosed twice. 21 Thank God for Narcan. 22 Thank you Suffolk County Sheriff's Department 23 that's carrying this lifesaving drug. They 24 resuscitated my son twice. 25 He was incarcerated. Suffered an inhumane 1 and painful detox while incarcerated, and I couldn't 2 get him out. 3 Not that I would, even if I could, because he 4 had to go through it. 5 And in the end, he was granted a long-term 6 program, which he's in now, and to date, 7 Fidelis Care has never paid. 8 I took them to court. 9 I said: I want to know these guidelines, 10 this "medical necessity." 11 [Applause.] 12 NORA: And they, finally -- through a court, 13 and they still tried to refuse. They tried to 14 refuse giving me these guidelines, until I had the 15 judge send them a letter, fax them a letter, and 16 stated they had to. Because they denied him, they 17 had to disclose to me the criteria that they used 18 for their medical necessity. 19 And I found out a lot in that process. 20 The biggest thing I found out is, out of all 21 of the insurance companies, each insurance company 22 can make up their own "medical necessity," and they 23 don't have to tell you what it is. 24 So, in the end, when I got this list of 25 "medical necessity," at first, they said they denied 1 him because he had received treatment in that year 2 prior, and they felt that another level of treatment 3 would not yield a different result. 4 Which is really kind of in direct conflict 5 with the Parity Act: Well, you've had this much 6 treatment so we're not gonna give you any more. 7 That wasn't acceptable. 8 And so when I took them to court, and I got 9 this "medical necessity," there was 11 criterias, 10 and he met 9 out of the 11. And the two that he 11 didn't meet was, he wasn't pregnant -- 12 [Laughter.] 13 NORA: -- and he wasn't homicidal or 14 suicidal. 15 So, if he was homicidal or suicidal, all 16 these great providers up there, not one of them 17 would let him in. 18 So they created a death warrant for my son. 19 So my question is, I'm here: 20 What can we do about this "medical necessity" 21 guidelines? And why can't we take it away from the 22 insurance company? 23 And I applaud the bill. 24 Let's take the power away from the insurance 25 company and give it to that bedside doctor. 1 But, also, why can't we take away this 2 various "medical necessity" guidelines, and give 3 one, across the board, This is the 4 "medical necessity." If you meet it, you get 5 treatment, end of story. You qualify, you're in, 6 and you have a chance to live. 7 So, thank you. 8 SENATOR MARTINS: Amen. 9 [Applause.] 10 SENATOR BOYLE: Thank you, Nora. 11 And, you really got to the heart of the whole 12 situation right there. I mean, we've dealt with 13 this "medical necessity" issue and the insurance 14 companies for a number of years now. 15 And I can tell you that, legislation we'd 16 like to come out of this Task Force. 17 I'm not sure about mandating what 18 "medical necessity" can be for the different -- but 19 what I can tell you is, that as a parent, you should 20 have had access to that before you got the 21 insurance. 22 So, you want to make a decision about what 23 insurance company you're looking at, well, I think 24 this "medical necessity" is doable, "I'll choose 25 this company over this one," and that really creates 1 the free market. 2 Having -- not finding out until it's too 3 late, is absolutely unacceptable. 4 And, I thank you. And I will certainly bring 5 that up to my colleagues on the Task Force, yeah. 6 NORA: [Inaudible.] 7 SENATOR BOYLE: Absolutely. 8 SENATOR MARTINS: Let me just give you an 9 example, just where this has happened in other areas 10 of the law. 11 We all have -- well, most of us have auto 12 insurance. Right? 13 We have no-fault as part of our auto 14 insurance. 15 In the No-Fault law, there's actually a law 16 that defines what a "serious injury" is, that 17 applies to every automobile insurance policy in 18 New York State. 19 In order to qualify, we have, as a state, 20 defined the term "serious injury" for purposes of 21 access to insurance. 22 And, certainly, to the extent that we have 23 the opportunity to look at a holistic approach 24 towards defining "medical necessity," we'll have the 25 opportunity to do that. 1 There's a very similar question, and so 2 I sort of put the two of you together, by 3 Ira Costel [ph.], as to a specific bill that is 4 sponsored by Senator Hannon, that would have 5 insurance companies specifically required to cover 6 treatment as long as the doctor prescribed it. 7 And it goes, I believe, very much to your 8 point about determining what that -- what 9 "medical necessity" is once you have a doctor make 10 that determination. 11 The need for uniformity and for some level of 12 comfort for all of us, I think is important. 13 And, Mr. Costel, not the to steal your 14 thunder, but, thank you for bringing it up. 15 IRA COSTEL [ph.]: No, no problem. Not at 16 all. 17 I want to thank you very much, you know, 18 Nora, for articulating, in the most profound and 19 moving way, what so many people in this audience 20 have experienced themselves. 21 And it's just -- it's gut-wrenching. And, 22 you know, too many families have experienced that. 23 And, so, I really can't say it any much 24 better. 25 And I know, as a co-sponsor of the Senate 1 bill, that you're in support of it. 2 I do have a practical question that I want to 3 ask you in a moment, but there's some things, as I'm 4 listening here all today, that I'm not sure -- 5 I came in about 20 minutes late, but I've been here 6 the bulk of the day and I'm not sure I've heard it 7 really discussed; and that is, most of the providers 8 up here, well, none of the providers that you'll 9 talk to will take somebody who needs to go through 10 detox first. 11 And that, of course, is, you know, at the 12 crux of the bill. 13 And one of the things, just to amplify on 14 what Dr. Reynolds said, you know, there's fewer 15 and fewer resources around. 16 And I don't know, you know, how many people 17 in this room, but I know that I stayed on the phone, 18 from about 2:00 in the afternoon until 3:00 in the 19 morning, helping my brother go from Quanticut [ph.] 20 in Hampton Bays, to Long Beach, to Nassau Medical 21 Center, trying to find a bed for my nephew David, 22 and being turned away, because there just were no 23 beds. 24 People didn't realize you need a reservation 25 to get into detox. 1 [Laughter.] 2 IRA COSTEL [ph.]: And there are now fewer 3 beds than there were six or seven years ago when my 4 brother was experiencing that nightmare, when you 5 finally have a child who's come to their knees and 6 said, "I need help, I'm willing." 7 You know, a parent, who's never been 8 educated, has no idea, but they call somebody, and 9 they check with somebody that they think knows, and 10 they'll run around and they'll do the circuit, only 11 to be turned away. 12 And my brother's child went back out for 13 another year and a half run after that, you know. 14 And, thank God, he did find a few months of 15 sobriety, you know. 16 But as I've said in many public forums 17 before, we all need to be mindful, as parents, and 18 legislators, and concerned citizens, you know, that 19 relapse definitely is a major component of this 20 disease, but as we all know, relapse can be the end 21 of your story, not just part of your story as a 22 recovering addict. 23 And, unfortunately, like too many other 24 people, you know, my family experienced that. And 25 my nephew, just two months shy of his 1 23rd birthday, was found dead in his own basement, 2 you know, by my sister-in-law. 3 But the point being, really, you know, the 4 parents are suffering out there, families are 5 suffering, so I appreciate your support for this 6 bill. 7 I have -- so -- but we need to talk about 8 more beds. How do we get more funding? 9 I haven't heard that discussed yet today in, 10 really, any consequential way: What funding stream 11 is available, to make sure? 12 I mean, we lost Long Beach due to 13 "Hurricane Sandy." There were beds that were lost 14 there, you know. 15 And then, just a few short months ago, 16 I became very close with my nephew's sponsor, and we 17 stayed friends. And after six or so years of 18 recovery, he relapsed over the summer. 19 And every day my heart was in my throat, 20 knowing he was shooting 10 bags of dope a day, you 21 know, thinking, that he knew what he needed to do, 22 but he just couldn't bring himself to do it. 23 And, thankfully, you know, I -- you never 24 know what when the next day can be the last day, in 25 this business, you know. 1 And you are, very directly, in the business 2 of saving lives. Very directly, every day. 3 And this bill can help. 4 But, the point that I experienced that was a 5 nightmare, was, he finally, 3 1/2 months ago, said: 6 Okay, I'm ready. 7 You know, he went in on to Nassau Medical 8 Center. They were prescribing him lower doses of, 9 you know, methadone than he physically felt capable 10 of handling. 11 Because they say you can't die from being 12 dope-sick, you only wish you could. 13 Okay? 14 So, he came out after 24 hours. 15 But, anyway, a couple of months later, he was 16 ready to go again. We went to South Oaks. And 17 I sat for 4 1/2 hours, while the insurance company 18 was saying this was not medically necessary, as 19 we've all about heard. 20 They said: You can go to outpatient and take 21 Suboxone. 22 He said: I'm ready to get off of drugs. 23 I don't want to go on another drug. So I'm gonna go 24 home and shoot up. 25 And it was only by his own smarts, that made 1 him lie, and say, "Oh, I've been taking Xanax, too," 2 that they were able to take him and gave him 3 four days. 4 And, thankfully, he's got 97 days today. 5 [Applause.] 6 IRA COSTEL [ph.]: So this was -- this is 7 just insanity. 8 This is insanity. 9 I mean, you know, the kid is shooting poison 10 into his veins, and they say this is not medically 11 necessary. 12 I mean, the world's upside down. 13 So just two things: 14 One: Can we start talking about, How do we 15 get more beds for people in detox? 16 Because you can't get into rehab until you've 17 detoxed. 18 Number one. 19 [Applause.] 20 IRA COSTEL [ph.]: And, number two: 21 I know you're on board. 22 And as Dr. Reynolds says, we can't -- you 23 know, next session. We'll get it to next session. 24 Well, next session, in the four hours that 25 we've been here, there have been 20 more people 1 across the United States who have died of 2 prescription overdose, just in these four hours. 3 Every day, there are people dying. 4 So what can we do, as concerned citizens, and 5 what can you do as a legislator, to ensure passage 6 this session of this bill? 7 Thank you. 8 [Applause.] 9 SENATOR BOYLE: I very, very much appreciate 10 that. 11 And I would say that, what you can do as 12 advocates, obviously, being here today, and 13 participating, and the panelists. 14 When we have this report, and come out with 15 some proposed pieces of legislation, to advocate, 16 call your Assembly person, call your Senator. And, 17 if you have a cousin upstate in Syracuse, and an old 18 college buddy in Buffalo, have them call their 19 Senate and their Assembly to support passage of this 20 piece of legislation. 21 And I will say this, that Jeff is right, that 22 it's an ambitious agenda to get this passed, from 23 the time, we'll have, like, three weeks, maybe, to 24 get these bills passed. 25 I believe we can do the most of them in the 1 Senate. 2 But if we don't; if, in the rush at the end 3 of session, we do not get this passed, what I would 4 like you to do is, join me in a call for 5 Governor Cuomo to call a special session of the 6 Legislature, to deal specifically with the heroin 7 epidemic in New York State. 8 [Applause.] 9 SENATOR BOYLE: We will make sure that we 10 focus on it completely. 11 SENATOR MARTINS: And that, ladies and 12 gentlemen, is the answer. 13 Legislative sessions are finite periods. 14 It doesn't mean that we can't legislate 15 outside of that session, as long as there's a will 16 to do so. 17 You see that will here. 18 And I know that there's a tremendous amount 19 of frustration in the room, on both sides, with the 20 pace. But we're here, and there's a real effort to 21 getting something done in the short term. 22 Let's understand that there's a real 23 opportunity here, because, as people tell me all 24 about the time, you strike while the iron is hot. 25 And, it's hot. 1 There's an opportunity right now for us to do 2 something meaningful, long-lasting, structural, 3 that, hopefully, will address many of the issues we 4 have here today. 5 Do I have any illusions at all that we are 6 going to have a perfect resolution where every issue 7 is resolved? No, I don't. 8 Do I have every confidence in the world that 9 we will end up in a much better place than we are 10 right now, because we're going through this process? 11 And the answer is yes. 12 So, I want to thank Senator Boyle for his 13 leadership on this. 14 Stay tuned. 15 We're gonna be here for longer than June, 16 longer than July or August, and certainly for longer 17 than 2014, dealing with this issue. 18 On that point, I have questions, and I have 19 comments, here. 20 Many of these are not questions. They're 21 comments, they're statements. 22 And I understand that everybody in this room 23 would love and like an opportunity to make a 24 statement. 25 I'm asking, if you have questions, ask it, 1 because we have wonderful panelists here, where we 2 can flesh out any of these issues. 3 We can probably make room at the end of the 4 session for statements, as people relay their 5 stories and their -- and I think that is important. 6 I'm not downplaying it. 7 But I do want to stick to the Q&A portion of 8 this, because it's through that Q&A that we're going 9 to have the opportunity to try and hopefully 10 influence some items on this legislative card. 11 And one of the questions that came up from 12 Kate Meyer [ph.] has to do with: Yes, let's say 13 that we get that Hannon bill passed, and that we're 14 able to get insurance companies to provide 15 treatment -- there's a question that was just 16 alluded to -- Where are the beds? Where are the 17 facilities? 18 And, sure, if the insurance companies are 19 willing to pick up the freight, even if they're not 20 willing to pick up the freight in the event that 21 there's legislation that requires them to, what do 22 we do, and how do we, marshal resources to make beds 23 available, facilities available, that provide for 24 the kind of intake and treatment that we're looking 25 for? 1 There are, by all accounts, tens, if not 2 hundreds of thousands, of people who are going 3 through addiction right now, in the midst of it, 4 trying to cope with it. 5 If we had the ability to have it paid for and 6 funded, where are they to go? 7 How should we be allocating those resources? 8 What kind of facilities should we be looking 9 to build? 10 Is it reasonable to expect that we're going 11 to build thousands, or tens of thousands, or more, 12 recovery homes across Long Island to deal with the 13 need? 14 Is that the model that we should be pursuing, 15 or is there another model that we should be looking 16 at? 17 Not too provocative. 18 Dr. Reynolds, what do you think? 19 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Look, the insurance 20 companies have made it financially unviable for any 21 provider to expand their beds. 22 Even the not-for-profit providers look and 23 say: This is what the reimbursement rates look 24 like. It's not feasible to expand. 25 If you fix the insurance issues, I think it 1 opens up the marketplace a little bit, and, perhaps, 2 brings some new players to the table, and allows the 3 existing providers, who do a really good job, the 4 ability to expand. 5 Secondly, we've got to take a look at some 6 new models. 7 The detox issue has come up again and again 8 and again, and it's spot-on. 9 The insurers believe, and, in fact, some 10 hospitals believe, that opioid detox is not 11 medically dangerous, and they're correct; and, 12 therefore, can be done in outpatient setting. 13 All right, tell that to the parents of a 14 19-year-old who's writhing in pain on the bathroom 15 floor, who's trying to keep that kid wrapped up 16 until they're through the detox. And then, as soon 17 as that detox is done, that kid feel likes he's on 18 top of the world, and in 48 hours, is back to 19 square one. 20 We should have models of care that are not 21 hospitals, but that provide that young person with 22 some supervision and guidance as they go through 23 that process. 24 All right, we have crisis residence called 25 "Talbot House." 1 We should be talking about expanding that 2 model of care. We need something in between. 3 We also need, we gotta deal with the 4 sober-home issue. 5 Look, the reality is then, not everybody 6 requires inpatient care. And although the insurers 7 would like you to believe that's where we believe 8 everybody should be, it's not. 9 The outpatient facilities need to be more 10 accessible in communities across Long Island. They 11 need to have longer hours. 12 We need to deal with the waiting lists in a 13 lot of those places. 14 In some places, if you call today, you're 15 gonna get a date three weeks down the line. 16 When it comes to the recovery-housing piece, 17 the fact that it's not regulated is absolutely 18 criminal. It's part of the continuum of care. 19 And along with dealing with regulating it, 20 we've gotta make sure that we're properly financing 21 it. 22 Part of the issue is, that the reimbursement 23 rates given out by local DSS are not enough for 24 folks to do this absolutely correct. 25 And, so, we can take the knowledge from other 1 regions and figure out how to do this. The models 2 are there. 3 It's a matter of changing up the game a 4 little bit in New York State. 5 And here's -- this is perhaps going to be, if 6 OASAS is in the room, perhaps the least popular 7 thing I'm going say all about day: 8 It should not take a year to expand an 9 existing facility. It should not take three to 10 five years to go through a licensure process to open 11 up a new facility on Long Island or across 12 New York State. 13 We are at the height of a crisis. It should 14 be easier to open a facility than it is now. 15 And in some states, we've gone to the nth 16 degree and you can open them up in a strip mall in 17 30 minutes. 18 We don't want that. We're not even close to 19 that. But the hurdles that folks have to jump 20 through to add beds or add slots in this region and 21 elsewhere across New York State is crazy at the 22 height of what we're dealing with. 23 Make it easier. 24 SENATOR MARTINS: Point well made. 25 But let me ask you: 1 You know, in the context of treatment, and 2 we've heard already previously today, issues about a 3 child being in a certain environment, and the 4 concerns about outpatient care, keeping that child 5 or that young adult in that same environment, and 6 the need to remove them from that environment. 7 So if we don't do it through recovery homes, 8 so we don't do it through removing that person from 9 their environment and putting them in a care 10 facility, that provides them with that necessary 11 shield, you know, how else can we do it? 12 Is it realistic to expect that we're gonna be 13 able to do it in the community, with the same 14 factors and the same experiences surrounding that 15 person that we're trying to remove them from? 16 Or, do we then start talking about schools, 17 and the types of schools, and the kinds of 18 environments, that we need to? 19 And, then, do we have a progressive 20 discussion on where we need to be, not only with 21 regard to removing them and putting them in recovery 22 homes, but, building schools that are appropriate to 23 that group? 24 Isn't that part of this discussion, and how 25 we're going to invest in making sure that they do 1 not fall back into that same cycle? 2 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Yeah, so I'm gonna say 3 stay a couple of thing, and then punt to Kim, 4 because I know she's dying to weigh in on this. 5 SENATOR MARTINS: I noticed that. 6 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: So, here, let me say 7 this: 8 I think you're exactly right. 9 We talk about the fact that we can't pull 10 every kid, right, out of the community and say: 11 We're gonna put you in a bubble and protect you. 12 We've gotta change the communities and change 13 the schools, and in some cases, educate parents. 14 I have parents, every day, who ask me very 15 basic questions. 16 "When my kid comes out of rehab, is it still 17 okay to drink a glass of wine with dinner?" 18 That kind of thing. 19 So we've gotta make this a community that's 20 safe for kids in recovery, so they can be who they 21 are and be proud of their recovery. 22 On the financial piece, and you mentioned 23 that, I think, tangentally, what I would say is, 24 while I recognize that resources are limited, we're 25 spending the money anyway. 1 We're giving the money to landlords who are 2 wrecking people's recovery and blowing our 3 investment of treatment. 4 And we're spending on jails, we're spending 5 it on POs, we're spending it on petty crime. 6 We are spending the dollars anyway, and at 7 the same time, losing a lot of kids. 8 So, the dollar-side a piece, reframing our 9 communities and making safer -- making them safer so 10 that kids can stay, I think is the heart and soul of 11 what Kim does. 12 KYM LAUBE: Absolutely. You know, and I'll 13 add on that -- 14 SENATOR MARTINS: Kym Laube. 15 KYM LAUBE: -- you know, for every dollar we 16 spend in prevention, we do save 10 to 22 on the 17 treatment side of the world. And we absolutely need 18 treatment, and we need better access to care, and we 19 need to do it smarter. 20 When it comes to prevention, and the 21 partnership that needs to come into this 22 conversation, is -- is simple policy -- What's the 23 policy in communities? What are the policies in 24 schools? What are the policies in families? What 25 are policies in individuals? -- and begin to 1 strengthen them. 2 See, part of the problem or the challenge 3 that I have is, you know, we -- and Anthony knows 4 I'll always we say this, we continue to blame the 5 fish for getting sick after swimming in a polluted 6 pond. 7 And it's really up to us now, at this point, 8 to figure out why the pond's so darned polluted in 9 the first place, you know, and begin to take a look 10 at, What are those changes we can make? 11 I got a call -- I got an e-mail last night 12 from an outraged parent who took her kids to go see 13 the new "Muppets Movie." 14 And as she sat there watching the previews, 15 there's a whole "Monsters, Inc." video that goes 16 on -- and "Monsters, Inc.," incredibly love it -- 17 but it's all about "Monsters, Inc.," and how they're 18 at a keg party now on a college campus. 19 So she's sitting here with her seven and her 20 eighth -- you know, her 7-year-old and her 21 9-year-old and her 11-year-old, going to enjoy a 22 family moment; and, yet, she's being saturated and 23 bombarded by messaging of using substances to have 24 fun. 25 So my challenge, when we begin this -- 1 continue this dialogue, is, you know, we need to 2 give -- we need to give parents the tools to create 3 those healthier environments to begin. 4 We tell kids all about the time, have fun 5 without using substances, but we fail to show them 6 how to do that sometimes, you know. 7 We need to be those role models and those 8 folks who are taking a stand. 9 And I encourage adults, any adults -- whether 10 you're a mom, a dad, a parent, you know, an uncle, 11 an aunt, a Godmother, a teacher -- throw one party a 12 year where the alcohol's not on at the table, and 13 have a blast, have a grand old time. 14 You know, when we take a look a family 15 policy, this needs to be very much part of the 16 discussion. 17 Just as going to church may be a policy in 18 your family; or, we're just kind to each other; or, 19 in this family, you have to wear your seatbelt; in 20 this family, you have to put on sunblock. 21 Those are health policies; and, again, going 22 back to this being part of the discussion. 23 So, yep, there's many challenges we have with 24 treatment. Many. 25 And -- and we need to do things smarter, and 1 get folks the care that they need. 2 And -- and, part of that dialogue, as 3 discussed today, must also be part of this changing: 4 changing those school policies, changing family 5 policies, changing individual policies, and 6 straightening -- strengthening those. 7 So, that, it's about that population-level 8 change, that community-level change, and it is no 9 longer normalized and just simply accepted because 10 we've done it for so many years. 11 Because, quite frankly, the adults in the 12 room, many of us, you know, I hear parents say: 13 Well, we did it and we were fine. 14 And the truth of us, many of us didn't come 15 out okay, you know, and many of us didn't make it, 16 and some of us still suffer to this day as a result. 17 And the game has changed. It's a different 18 game today. 19 And, so, our education must change to go 20 along with that, our response must change to go 21 along with that, and, the promptness and quickness 22 and the effectiveness needs to change right along, 23 because it is a different game today. 24 [Applause.] 25 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 1 Senator Boyle, you have a Narcan training 2 program on April 22nd. 3 Why don't you just give us a brief overview 4 of what it is, and why it's important. 5 SENATOR BOYLE: Yeah, we are gonna host it at 6 the Deer Park Fire Department, April 22nd, from 6 to 7 7 pm. It's at 94 Lake Avenue in Deer Park. 8 All about you need to do is, please call our 9 district office at 665-2311, and talk to 10 Stevey [ph.] 11 I don't know if Stevey's here. 12 Many of you know Stevey. She's been our 13 front person on my committee for Heroin Task Force. 14 And, she suffered the tragic loss of her 15 sister with an overdose last year, and is personally 16 committed, and her entire family is, to helping us 17 on this issue. 18 You can RSVP to Stevey. 19 We have quite a number of people that have 20 already signed up. 21 It's very short. I've taken the class 22 myself. It's about 45 minutes, and then you'll also 23 leave with a Narcan kit, and, we can help save 24 lives, and spread the word that everyone should have 25 Narcan in their home, and use it. 1 Hopefully, never have to use it, but when it 2 is there, it will save lives. 3 Thank you, Jack. 4 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. 5 [Applause.] 6 DENISE MURR: Carry it around in your 7 pocketbook, your car. 8 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Bring it to school. 9 SENATOR BOYLE: We're trying to make it as 10 far and wide as possible. 11 Certainly, the police -- and one of things 12 you're seeing in certain areas of the state, the 13 firefighters, the police officers, arguing about who 14 who's gonna use it. 15 Everyone should have it available: volunteer 16 firefighters, police officers, teachers, parents, 17 kids...whomever. 18 As many as we can get out there, we will. 19 SENATOR MARTINS: Alongside our 20 defibrillators, there should be a Narcan pack, as 21 well. 22 SENATOR BOYLE: Absolutely. 23 SENATOR MARTINS: And I want to thank again, 24 Eden Laikin, for having facilitated my having taken 25 that class as well. 1 [Applause.] 2 SENATOR MARTINS: I have a question for 3 Tom Willdigg, who's been patiently sitting here. 4 As a Nassau County -- retired Nassau County 5 detective, president of the detectives association, 6 I know how hard you worked with youth, and what a 7 priority you made in working with youth. 8 What can law enforcement do to more 9 adequately teach young people about, you know, 10 the -- the -- well, the concerns we have, and the 11 trap that is drug addiction? 12 How do you get to them? 13 How do you get them -- as a law-enforcement 14 official, not just from the arrest, not just from 15 the penal standpoint, but from being, you know, the 16 local police officer interacting with youth in our 17 communities, in our schools, how do you get them? 18 How do we help? 19 TOM WILLDIGG: Well, I think the first thing 20 you do is similar to what Detective Stark does: Go 21 out to the schools. 22 She's a one-man show -- one-woman show, and 23 she has a lot to do. 24 So we need more personnel to do that, to 25 start with. 1 You know, drugs, it's -- when they had the 2 other epidemics, when you had the crack epidemic of 3 the '80s, you went out and you threw a whole bunch 4 of money on it, you threw a whole bunch of personnel 5 on it, you put a lid on it. 6 Is it gone? No, it's not gone. 7 When you had the gang epidemic of 2000 -- the 8 early 2000s to 2005, we went to the legislators, and 9 all of a sudden, we had, you know, a Long Island 10 task force on gangs, working out of Hempstead with 11 the combined force of Nassau, Suffolk, corrections, 12 underneath the FBI. 13 And is it gone? No. 14 But did we put a lid on it? Yes. 15 Heroin came along and everybody's turned -- 16 they didn't turn a blind eye, but they put up a 17 heroin task force; they took down a heroin task 18 force. 19 Manpower, money; money's tight, manpower's 20 tight, so that part of it is over. 21 I think, as interacting with the cops, cops 22 interacting with the schools, I think the program 23 that Nassau has right now is great. 24 I would love to see them bring along some 25 young adults that are recovered addicts, that the 1 other children, or children -- they could be 2 children, adolescents, that they can relate to in 3 the audience. They're not gonna relate to 4 Detective Willdigg or Detective Stark as much as 5 they're gonna relate to somebody, like: Oh, my God, 6 that person up there, he's stopped. He's clean and 7 sober. I want to be like that person. 8 Okay, you're not gonna get every kid in the 9 audience or every young adult in the audience, but 10 you're gonna get one, maybe two, out of that whole 11 assembly. 12 So I think that's important for the police to 13 do that. 14 And every day, when they -- when they have 15 interaction with the public, when you have a call to 16 somebody's house, I think that the training, when 17 they get training in the academy now, they have to 18 be trained more so as more 19 community-relations-minded as far as drug addiction. 20 Even all about the way down to marijuana, it's a 21 gateway drug. 22 You know, marijuana's a gateway drug. 23 And, that's about all I can say as far as 24 community relations go. 25 But, I think Nassau, Detective Stark 1 especially, is on the right track with that 2 education part. 3 The enforcement end is another thing. 4 SENATOR MARTINS: I appreciate it. 5 You know, I know our children get many of 6 their signals from us as parents. 7 You know, if we look at certain things and we 8 say they're okay, our children are more than likely 9 to say they're okay, or it's no big deal. 10 And, so, we actually have to do more 11 ourselves, as parents, to strike the right balance 12 when it comes to setting a tone for what is 13 acceptable and what is not acceptable in our own 14 households, and in our own communities. 15 I have a question here with regard to the 16 Nassau County Police Department, and whether or not 17 they carry Narcan. 18 So, Eden, lay up for you? 19 Come on up, why you don't tell us about 20 Narcan. 21 EDEN LAIKIN: Well, I will tell you that -- 22 SENATOR MARTINS: Come on up. 23 Thank you. 24 EDEN LAIKIN: -- it is one of my favorite 25 subjects to talk about. 1 Thank you for showing that, Denise. 2 We do, since we became State-certified 3 through the State Health Department, as an 4 opioid-overdose program, the first county outside of 5 New York City in the state to do that, we've trained 6 1300 regular citizens, approximately -- 7 [Applause.] 8 EDEN LAIKIN: -- at about -- yeah -- 9 50 trainings. 10 I've seen almost everybody in this room at 11 the trainings at least once, you know. 12 SENATOR MARTINS: And every -- every car -- 13 every police car in Nassau County? 14 EDEN LAIKIN: No. I mean, we have -- it is 15 starting, the training of the police, but we didn't 16 do that right away; and mostly because the 17 difference between Nassau and Suffolk, I think, and 18 one big thing is, we have a huge -- you know, we 19 have a -- you know, our ambulances, most likely, are 20 gonna get to an aided before our, you know, police 21 officers usually. And they have Narcan, and they 22 save. 23 I talked to our police medics now. They 24 just -- the other night, they responded to 25 six heroin overdoses in their -- in one shift at 1 night. "Six." 2 They all lived, but -- yeah, so they all 3 about lived. 4 And, so, they usually get there first. 5 But our officers are gonna be trained. We're 6 told that by July, all of the them will be trained. 7 It will be in the patrol cars. 8 I know that this new class that was going 9 through the academy was trained. That's what I was 10 told by the Police Commissioner. 11 So -- but I could just talk about how, you 12 know, our thing is, yeah, a lot of these kids 13 credits dying at home, you know. And I want to get 14 one of these kits into every parent's. 15 Even if you're -- and one thing you should 16 know -- and I don't want to take up anymore time -- 17 but, you know, the easiest time to die of a fatal 18 overdose is when you have some period of abstinence 19 away, and then you relapse, and you think you have 20 the same, uhm -- 21 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Tolerance. 22 EDEN LAIKIN: -- tolerance, thank you, and 23 you go back to doing the same amount. 24 So, even if you're -- if your child is, you 25 know, blessed enough and in recovery and clean, have 1 the Narcan anyway. Don't -- you know? 2 It's better to have than not to have. 3 SENATOR MARTINS: And to the extent that we 4 can, again, put priority on all of the our emergency 5 responders, having them being trained, having the 6 kits in their cars, having them accessible. 7 And, certainly, whether it's our emergency 8 responders, schools, or other areas, certainly, it's 9 easy enough to do, and the training isn't that 10 difficult. 11 So thank you very much for all your efforts, 12 Eden. 13 EDEN LAIKIN: You're welcome. 14 SENATOR MARTINS: I have two questions here 15 with regard to the Good Samaritan Law. 16 Anyone familiar with the Good Samaritan Law? 17 [Applause.] 18 SENATOR MARTINS: Important. 19 Important, where do we -- where we draw 20 those -- that threshold? Where do we as a society 21 want to be when issues like this come up? 22 Richie, you want to give us an overview? 23 RICHARD BUCKMAN: Uhm, I'm probably not the 24 best qualified person. 25 SENATOR MARTINS: No? 1 Jeffrey? 2 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: The Legislature, in 3 its infinite wisdom -- unanimous in the Senate, by 4 the way. One vote against it in the Assembly, and 5 I'll leave that person out of the conversation -- 6 the Legislature -- 7 SENATOR MARTINS: But you can always look it 8 up if you want to. 9 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Right. 10 [Laughter.] 11 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: And he's from 12 Long Island. 13 But, look, it went up through the Senate 14 unanimously, it went through the Assembly 15 unanimously. It's one of the only times, I think, 16 probably in the past 30 years, that the Legislature 17 has agreed on something so quickly, and something 18 that, potentially, dials back our law-enforcement 19 response to addiction. 20 And, essentially, it's a law that creates 21 limited immunity for those who call for the help in 22 the midst of an overdose; whether you're calling for 23 somebody else or for yourself. 24 It doesn't apply if you have a pound of 25 heroin and a handgun on the table when the police 1 respond, but for low-level offenses it certainly 2 applies. 3 And I think that the MO here really was to 4 send a message to young people. 5 And if you see, there's a poster on the wall, 6 to get them to call for help. 7 Overdose is not a spontaneous event, kind of 8 like what you see in the movies. It usually takes a 9 couple of hours. 10 And more often than not, when someone begins 11 to suffer an overdose, there's a whole bunch of 12 people in the room. And, particularly, if they're 13 young, people get scared, people get afraid, and 14 people leave, and that person winds up dying. 15 And so this was a very clear step, supported 16 by law enforcement, to say: Look, in some cases, 17 public health comes before punishment. Call for 18 help. 19 And there's been a number of very 20 high-profile saves, where folks have called for help 21 and lives have been saved. 22 So kudos to the Legislature, and particularly 23 the Long Island delegation, for getting this done. 24 SENATOR MARTINS: Well, I appreciate that. 25 And I am going to give a shout out to 1 Traci Pew [ph.]. Traci, from the Drug Policy 2 Alliance. 3 If anyone is interested in any of those 4 posters, please reach out, and she'll be happy to 5 share. 6 You know, and to that point, let's 7 understand, there is a distinction, and I think 8 we've heard it here over and over and over again 9 today: This is a health issue. 10 Let's focus on it as a health issue. 11 Forgive me, when it comes to someone who's 12 dealing drugs to our kids, put them away. Bad 13 enough can't happen to them. 14 Let them get treatment for their own 15 addictions when they're away, but get them away. 16 That's my opinion. 17 And, so, if we can increase the penalties on 18 drug sales, and people who are pushing drugs on our 19 kids, I'm all in. 20 But we need to find a more equitable way, 21 appropriate way, of dealing with this health-care 22 crisis that is facing us. 23 I want to thank the panel for being here 24 today. I want to thank you all for your 25 participation. 1 Senator Boyle, as always, this was very 2 interesting. 3 I have certainly learned a lot. I think we 4 all about have. 5 And I hope that everyone here will continue 6 to participate and to dialogue as we move forward. 7 I will invite everyone again to, please, 8 I know there were many people we couldn't get to, 9 there are statements out there that you would like 10 to share, and those statements are important. 11 Some of the most poignant parts of today's 12 discussion came from those personal observations. 13 And I'm certainly not trying to discourage 14 anyone. I just want to point out that, from a time 15 standpoint, we just don't have the time right now. 16 But I would encourage you to, please, take 17 the opportunity, prepare those statements, send them 18 along, allow them to be part of the record; allow 19 other people to participate and share in your 20 thoughts, because they will make it into a final 21 result. 22 They will be read, and they will be 23 incorporated. 24 And with that, Senator Boyle, please, to wrap 25 up. 1 SENATOR BOYLE: Thank you very much. 2 I just would like to, again, thank all the 3 panelists. 4 And, Mr. Ewald, from the 5 District Attorney's Office, he was very instrumental 6 in the legislation we've already introduced 7 regarding increased criminal penalties. 8 Thank you, everyone, for today. 9 I can tell you that I have a number of ideas 10 in terms of legislation. It will be all part of the 11 report. 12 I'm just gonna, quick, for those of you who 13 can't make the April 22nd Narcan training: 14 The Long Island Minority AIDS Coalition is 15 having -- hosting one on May 9th. 16 It's gonna be for: Harm Reduction Solutions 17 For Public Health And Safety. 18 After -- that's at 8 a.m. to 12 p.m., at the 19 Four Points Sheraton Inn in Plainview. 20 And after that, at 12 to 1, there's gonna be 21 a Narcan training session there, as well. 22 Thank you all about again for coming. 23 And, I also would most like to thank our 24 moderator, Senator Jack Martins. 25 Jack, did you a great job. 1 Thank you very much for coming. 2 [Applause.] 3 4 (Whereupon, at approximately 2:25 p.m., 5 the forum held before the New York State Joint 6 Task Force on Heroin and Opioid Addiction 7 concluded, and adjourned.) 8 9 ---oOo--- 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Public Forum: Suffolk County Panel Discussion on Long Island'S Heroin Epidemic

Transcript