Public Hearing to Identify Gaps in the Delivery of Social Services in New York State

1 BEFORE THE NEW YORK STATE SENATE

STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL SERVICES 2 ---------------------------------------------------- 3 PUBLIC HEARING 4 TO IDENTIFY GAPS IN THE DELIVERY OF SOCIAL SERVICES

IN NEW YORK STATE 5

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Pearl River Public Library 8 80 Franklin Street

Pearl River, New York 10965 9

July 30, 2015 10 1:00 p.m. to 3:30 p.m. 11 12 13 PRESIDING: 14 Senator David L. Carlucci

Chair 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1

SPEAKERS:PAGE QUESTIONS 2

Susan Sherwood 4 13 3 Commissioner

Rockland County Department 4 of Social Services 5 Steve Piasecki 17 21

Upstate Member Services Coordinator 6 Supportive Housing Network of

New York State 7

Susan Antos 29 33 8 Senior Staff Attorney

Empire Justice Center 9

Ken Stephens 51 58 10 Attorney

Legal Aid Society 11

Tracie Robinson 69 79 12 Policy Analyst

Human Services Council of New York 13

Carmelita Cruz 82 87 14 Director of NYS Advocacy & Organizing

Housing Works 15

Mary Ellen Natale 91 16 Deputy Director

Legal Aid Society of Rockland County 17 18 ---oOo--- 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Good afternoon. 2 I want to welcome everyone to our hearing for 3 the Senate Committee on Social Services. 4 I'm Senator David Carlucci, the Chairman of 5 the Committee on Social Services. 6 And, I want to thank everyone for spending 7 their time with us today. 8 The idea here is to address some of the main 9 concerns in delivering social services around 10 New York State. 11 And the goal here today is to meet with the 12 people on the front lines, to get on the record some 13 of the problems that you're having, some of the 14 suggestions, so that we can really have a plan of 15 action moving into the next legislative session. 16 And the idea is to really work as a team, to 17 get everyone on board, so we can really figure out 18 and prioritize what we can do on a legislative level 19 to help make sure that you can do your jobs as 20 effectively as possible. 21 You know, if we exchange ideas, I think it's 22 extremely powerful, and I'm excited to hear from 23 each of you. 24 So with that, we'll get right into it. 25 We'll keep it pretty informal, as I'm the 1 only legislative person here right now. So, we can 2 move through it quickly and keep it on an informal 3 basis. 4 Our first speaker is Susan Sherwood, who is 5 the Commissioner of Rockland County Department of 6 Social Services. 7 Commissioner, thanks for being with us today. 8 COMM. SUSAN SHERWOOD: Well, thank you. 9 I'm pleased to be here, and I think this is a 10 wonderful opportunity in what you're doing, in 11 planning to go around the state and speak directly 12 with the local districts and the local providers of 13 services. 14 So, I really do appreciate this opportunity 15 to speak to you today on behalf of the clients and 16 the employees of the Rockland County Department of 17 Social Services. 18 Our clients, approximately 93,000 19 Rocklanders, currently rely on one or more of our 20 economic supports, such as Medicaid, SNAP or food 21 stamps, HEAP, the child-care subsidy program 22 employment assistance, or use one or more of our 23 human services, such as child welfare, CPS, adult 24 protective services, or child-support enforcement. 25 The Rockland district, in working with the 1 many families from across Rockland's diverse 2 communities, sees firsthand the needs of our 3 residents and the difficulties they have with 4 meeting complex social and economic needs. 5 Most programs and services, however, are 6 fragmented, and users need guidance in accessing 7 them, understanding them, and complying with them. 8 They face language barriers, transportation 9 difficulties, cultural differences, and need much 10 more help with navigation and case management. 11 Rockland County government and the many 12 wonderful not-for-profits in our county do provide a 13 rich menu of services, but the burden is too often 14 on a client in need and in stressful times to find 15 them and access them. 16 The need for coordination of services, 17 similar to what is happening in health care today, 18 is becoming more and more obvious to our workers. 19 Additional affordable rental housing is 20 needed in Rockland County. 21 Our stock of affordable renting units is very 22 low. And even affordable here is relatively 23 high-priced, and current public-assistance grants 24 and shelter allowances are far below actual living 25 and rent expenses. 1 The monthly maximum shelter allowance for a 2 family of two in Rockland County is $350. 3 Where can you rent an apartment for $350 per 4 month in Rockland County? 5 But the urgent need for supportive and 6 transitional housing for our difficult-to-place 7 populations, the medically frail, and those with 8 behavioral-health issues is even more problematic. 9 And the reimbursement rate for those facilities is 10 very, very low. 11 I will defer on issues of the unmet needs for 12 our residents with mental-health, behavioral-health, 13 substance-abuse issues, to my colleagues with 14 professional expertise in the field, but, the 15 absence of good supports for our residents with 16 these challenges, and the families who struggle 17 daily to care for them, is interwoven in and 18 complicating every other social problem we see 19 across every program we manage, and is preventing 20 self-sufficiency. 21 These individuals represent a large 22 proportion of our client base in all our programs, 23 comprise much our homeless population. Many 24 mentally-ill homeless individuals without community 25 supports end up in our county jail. 1 DSS has embedded a handful of psychiatric 2 social workers within our staff and situated them in 3 key units: temporary assistance, employment, 4 children's services, and adult protective services. 5 But we recommend the integration even further 6 of mental health and social services, because we 7 believe that we are seeing the fallout of the 8 decrease of New York State's support for community 9 mental-health services, and we are becoming, 10 de facto, the new department of mental health. 11 For our temporary-assistance clients, work 12 training and employment opportunities are somewhat 13 limited in Rockland County, because our unemployment 14 rate is low, and we do not have a large number of 15 entry-level and unskilled jobs. 16 Adding to that already existing gap, and 17 since the recession, able-bodied adults without 18 dependents, "ABAWD" is what they're called, in 19 New York State were, and are currently, exempt from 20 participating in work activities in order to receive 21 SNAP. 22 As the New York State unemployment rate has 23 improved, this exemption is scheduled to end 24 December 31st this year, and beginning then, our 25 employment unit will need to begin working directly 1 with these individuals -- we estimate another 2 1200 clients -- to find jobs or participate in 3 employment activities. 4 We believe this is the right course of 5 action, ultimately, for both the client and the 6 community, but it will be difficult to gear up to 7 meet the demand without help. 8 If we or the client is unsuccessful, that 9 individual will suffer, because then they will only 10 be eligible to receive SNAP assistance for just 11 three months in a three-year period. 12 Additional staff, as well as more 13 public-private partnerships that provide job 14 coaches, subsidized employment, and mentoring 15 programs, will be required. 16 Again, additional mental-health services will 17 also be necessary, as mental-health issues continue 18 to be barriers to employment and participation in 19 employment activities. 20 Of most concern are the unmet needs of 21 children and family. 22 For us, it really is kids first. 23 We believe in, and know we need, early 24 education, quality child care, after-school 25 programs, mentoring programs, enhanced educational 1 social and cultural opportunities, for all our kids, 2 but particularly for those in our poorer communities 3 whose parents cannot provide as much on their own. 4 But we also see such a great need for 5 parental education and support. 6 Programs that could interlace with social 7 services and provide help to the families our 8 caseworkers are working with would be a wonderful 9 support. 10 DSS should have the funds available to offer 11 additional complementary support programs to the 12 families that we are working with. 13 The large number of undocumented immigrants 14 living in Rockland County have a multitude of needs 15 that our programs cannot, by federal regulations, 16 provide. 17 Without the valued assistance of community 18 agencies and partners, like Catholic Charities, 19 Helping Hands, HACSO, The Immigrant Coalition, DCS, 20 Legal Aid, People to People, and others, our 21 Rockland community would see many more tragic 22 instances of hardship and neglect. 23 Speaking for the County and DSS, I would like 24 to thank the partners that we have in the different 25 communities and constituencies across 1 Rockland County for the work they do and their 2 willingness to work with us; and to express a plea, 3 on their behalf, for both an increase and for 4 stability in their funding, to enable them to 5 continue to assist the newest among us. 6 We in Rockland see much opportunities for 7 smarter program designed to help more clients to 8 better outcomes, and, to save taxpayer funds. 9 Savings from reducing fraud, waste, and abuse 10 in our eligibility programs should be reinvested in 11 the kind of worthwhile programs that I have spoken 12 of above. 13 To that end, I speak specifically of 14 Medicaid. 15 Rockland County currently has approximately 16 28 percent of its population now receiving Medicaid, 17 with the numbers growing each and every month. 18 This worthwhile program for the most needy 19 has now expanded, particularly with the 20 Affordable Care Act implementation and the 21 institution last year of the New York State of 22 Health Exchange, to a point where it may become 23 unsustainable. 24 Approximately 70 percent of the New York 25 health-exchange enrollees are receiving Medicaid, 1 and only 30 percent are entering the paid and 2 subsidized plans. 3 The growth in the Medicaid numbers in 4 Rockland mirror the growth in the population in our 5 federal census poverty tracts. 6 This is not fraud, as too often alleged, but 7 it is high use, and it is troubling as to its 8 sustainability. 9 The State of New York should take over the 10 entire payment for Medicaid with no local share to 11 the counties who have no input into the regulations 12 and no legal ability to make local changes. 13 Rockland County is, I believe, the first 14 county in New York to urge our federal and state 15 elected officials to take a better look at the 16 Medicaid program and consider some commonsense 17 reform. 18 Under the direction of County Executive 19 Ed Day, and with the assistance and advice of 20 District Attorney Tom Zugibe, with whom our 21 DSS special investigations unit has a successful and 22 effective working partnership to prevent, detect, 23 and prosecute fraud, we developed a series of 24 recommendations that were considered by and 25 ultimately adopted unanimously by the 1 Rockland County Legislature. 2 Memorializing Resolution Number 282 of this 3 year, urged the United States Congress and the 4 New York State Legislature: 5 To strengthen guidelines for the distribution 6 of Medicaid services and to prevent Medicaid fraud, 7 waste, and abuse; 8 To require resource testing of applicants; 9 To require more in-person interaction with 10 Medicaid staff; 11 Requiring that the New York State Medicaid 12 inspective (sic) general partner with the counties 13 to develop a process aimed at preventing Medicaid 14 fraud from online applications. 15 Local districts are aware of no front-end 16 fraud-prevention controls on the New York health 17 exchange. 18 That deeply concerns us. 19 These are but a few of the recommendations 20 included in memorializing Resolution 282. 21 Copies of this resolution were sent to 22 designated members of our executive and legislative 23 branches of government in June of this year, and 24 I have attached copies to my testimony. 25 Thank you for allowing me to highlight some 1 of the many gaps in the delivery of social services 2 in Rockland County and tell you what we see on the 3 ground. 4 As always, we appreciate your support and 5 consideration. 6 Thank you, Senator. 7 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Great. 8 Thank you, Commissioner. I really appreciate 9 that testimony. 10 One question I had is, the numbers that you 11 gave were very helpful. 12 You talked about 28 percent of Rockland 13 residents are on -- receiving Medicaid. 14 COMM. SUSAN SHERWOOD: Yes. 15 SENATOR CARLUCCI: You talked about that 16 it's -- really, there's not an issue of fraud. 17 COMM. SUSAN SHERWOOD: There's always some 18 programs in -- fraud in every program that's 19 provided. 20 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Right. 21 COMM. SUSAN SHERWOOD: I mean, that's 22 inherent in, you know, what people do, sadly, but, 23 it is not an enormous percentage. 24 We estimate, the standard rule of thumb in 25 all programs, is approximately 10 percent. 1 So even if that's true, that's still a lot, 2 and it should be avoided. And everything saved is 3 saved for the right reasons: to save money, defend 4 the program integrity. 5 But what we see here is not rampant fraud. 6 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Right. 7 Because the reason why I ask is, because 8 then, when the recommendations, in memorializing 9 Resolution 282 -- 10 COMM. SUSAN SHERWOOD: Right. 11 SENATOR CARLUCCI: -- it sounds like that's, 12 basically, going after fraud in that memorializing 13 resolution -- 14 COMM. SUSAN SHERWOOD: Well, it is in that 15 sense. And also -- indeed it is, and to protect the 16 program. 17 Some of the recommendations in there are 18 things like, yes, programs should be looked at in a 19 way that is not, perhaps, quite as easy. 20 You know, applications now can be submitted, 21 right now, anywhere in the world, online, with no 22 documentation presented at the time. 23 There's a lot of attestation that's done. 24 SENATOR CARLUCCI: See, and that's where I -- 25 COMM. SUSAN SHERWOOD: And it needs to be 1 looked at, because now we're not seeing those frond 2 ends kick out the way they are for a higher look. 3 When applicants came in and we worked with 4 them directly, we were able to stop something at the 5 door, even if it was a mistake, and give somebody a 6 chance to correct themselves, or for to us say, This 7 isn't going to work. 8 But if people go automatically onto the 9 system, it could be months, it could be years, 10 before something is found, and then it's very 11 difficult to go back and correct it then. 12 SENATOR CARLUCCI: So this could be a way to 13 integrate the need, as you started the testimony, 14 talking about the unique needs, in terms of cultural 15 language, transportation, in terms of providing 16 people with the right benefits? 17 COMM. SUSAN SHERWOOD: Indeed. 18 SENATOR CARLUCCI: So you believe, by doing 19 that, we could also weed out some of the fraud or 20 abuse as well, by making sure that we're better able 21 to allow people to access the programs that they 22 deserve and need? 23 COMM. SUSAN SHERWOOD: We really do. 24 If people are applying all by themselves 25 online and missing that human contact, my 1 caseworkers tell me, you know, When you're speaking 2 face to face with someone, you can find other needs, 3 you can build a relationship. You can also find 4 inconsistencies between programs. 5 So, we need to start treating people as more 6 human beings, with a range of services and needs. 7 SENATOR CARLUCCI: So as the commissioner 8 that's doing this on the front lines, how do we do 9 that? 10 COMM. SUSAN SHERWOOD: Well, then it becomes 11 tricky -- 12 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Right. 13 COMM. SUSAN SHERWOOD: -- and that's why it 14 needs to be a partnership. There needs to be a 15 balance between ease of access, technology, and that 16 human touch. 17 I mean, there's a phrase that says, The more 18 high tech, the more human touch is needed. 19 So, I think a discussion could be made about 20 the kinds of cases that perhaps the local district 21 is involved in. 22 Perhaps there are cases that have been on the 23 record for a while. 24 If someone is getting food stamps, for 25 example, for a year, and then they -- which is what 1 we hope, they move up and move on, that's fine. 2 But if someone is lingering, they're coming 3 on and off the file, if something is noted that 4 would trigger that look; other programs they're 5 accessing, for example, there may be a way that some 6 of those particular clients, let's call them 7 "tentatively high-need," "or high-risk," could be 8 kind of identified for some second look. 9 It's really worthy of a conversation. 10 We can't just make everything be an ATM where 11 nobody ever sees a human being anymore. 12 This is human services. 13 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Right. 14 Well, Commissioner, thank you so much, and 15 look forward to working with you on these issues. 16 COMM. SUSAN SHERWOOD: You're very welcome. 17 It's a pleasure. 18 Thank you. 19 SENATOR CARLUCCI: We have our next speaker, 20 Steve Piasecki, who's the upstate member services 21 coordinator for Supportive Housing Network of 22 New York State. 23 Thank you for coming. 24 STEVEN PIASECKI: Thank you. 25 Thank you, Senator. 1 Appreciate the opportunity to testify here 2 today, and be in Rockland County. 3 I am Steve Piasecki. I'm the upstate member 4 services coordinator of the Supportive Housing 5 Network of New York. 6 The network is a statewide organization that 7 represents over 200 non-for-profit developers and 8 social-services providers who run over 50,000 units 9 of supportive housing throughout the state. 10 Supportive housing is permanent, affordable 11 rental housing linked to on-site services, and it's 12 the most effective -- most cost-effective and humane 13 way to provide a safe, stable home for homeless 14 individuals and families living with disabilities or 15 other barriers to finding and maintaining housing on 16 their own. 17 The people who come to live in supportive 18 housing: chronically homeless people, people with 19 HIV/AIDS, mental-health issues or other disabling 20 conditions, individuals leaving prisons or other 21 institutions, youth aging out of foster care, and, 22 now, veterans returning from combat. 23 When left homeless, they cycle in and out of 24 expensive emergency services, like shelters, 25 hospitals, prisons, and psychiatric centers. 1 These publicly-funded interventions are 2 significantly more expensive -- 3 (Interruption, cell phone ringing.) 4 STEVEN PIASECKI: Oh, gesh. I'm embarrassed. 5 Sorry about that. 6 Just rolled in from Albany today. 7 Let's see. 8 So they're significantly more expensive than 9 supportive housing. 10 Some of the -- some things, like psychiatric 11 centers cost, more than $1,000 a day, which is 12 20 times more than the cost of supportive housing. 13 My testimony today is about the homelessness 14 crisis in New York State, and why statewide 15 supportive housing agreements of those 35,000 units 16 of supportive housing is critical to helping win 17 this battle. 18 1 out of every 7 homeless people in the 19 United States lives in New York State. Statewide, 20 there are, roughly, 67,000 men, women, and children 21 staying in shelters at any given time. 22 In New York City alone, over 59,000 people, 23 including 24,000 children, sleep in a homeless 24 shelter every night. 25 An additional 7,700 people stay in shelters 1 outside New York City. 2 Thousands of others sleep on the street or in 3 abandoned buildings or in makeshift campsites, while 4 thousands more exit foster care, hospitals, or -- 5 and other institutions each year without a home. 6 Supportive housing is, by far, the most 7 successful way to end homeless for individuals and 8 families living with disabilities and other 9 challenges; however, there is not enough -- not 10 nearly enough supply to meet the record need. 11 4 out every 5 people found eligible for 12 supportive housing in New York City have to stay in 13 a shelter or on the street because there are too few 14 supportive housing units available to meet the need. 15 Outside New York City, where there have been 16 no New York/New York programs, there are even fewer 17 resources. 18 To make matters worse, the Supportive Housing 19 Production Initiative in New York City, which is the 20 New York/New York three agreements -- this last one 21 was a 10-year agreement to build 9,000 units -- is 22 rapidly coming to an end, and there is about 23 100 units left to be awarded and implemented on that 24 agreement here in the -- 25 1 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Now, has the Supportive 2 Housing Network been involved in all of those? 3 STEVEN PIASECKI: Yes. 4 We have been active in all three agreements. 5 The three started about 25 years ago in 6 New York City. 7 All of them have been in New York City, and 8 they started with 1,000 units, 2,000 units, and the 9 last one, 10 years ago, was 9,000 units. 10 Also, I'll say the last one expanded in the 11 types of disability populations that could be 12 served. 13 The first two were all strictly mental 14 health. And the last one expanded to HIV/AIDS and 15 substance abuse, and also, for the first time, 16 families. 17 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Now, you're the upstate 18 coordinator? 19 STEVEN PIASECKI: Yes, so this must be 20 upstate. 21 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Yeah, well, it depends on 22 who you ask; right? 23 STEVEN PIASECKI: Exactly. 24 SENATOR CARLUCCI: So what -- how does that 25 correlate with New York/New York, in terms of -- 1 STEVEN PIASECKI: What I want to get to, and 2 I can paraphrase here, the Governor proposed in the 3 last budget to do a New York/New York agreement, but 4 he wanted to make it statewide, which was really 5 heartening. 6 We all would love to see it, something that 7 could be spread throughout the state. 8 So he proposed a small -- what we like to say 9 is a small down payment on that, 5,000 units, funded 10 initially through JPMorgan money. 11 Of those 5,000 units, the split was, roughly, 12 1,000 for upstate, meaning, everything outside of 13 New York City, for our purposes; and then 4,000 in 14 New York State. 15 So we've taken a lot of time looking at, you 16 know, what the need is. 17 And the fact is, that, you know, there's a 18 vast majority, something north of 80 percent, of the 19 homeless people are in New York City. 20 But, we still would love to be able to 21 address, in a very targeted fashion, the need in the 22 rest of the state. And -- 23 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Does the 24 Supportive Housing Network have a number in terms of 25 what you believe the need is? 1 STEVEN PIASECKI: Well, we're asking -- and 2 we're part of a larger coalition as well. We're 3 asking for 35 units -- 35,000 units across the whole 4 state, of which 5,000 would be outside of 5 New York City. 6 And we really bore down a lot, to take a look 7 and see if that makes sense, if it's doable. 8 A lot of what we're looking for are some 9 incremental increases and ongoing support from 10 various parts of local government, including the 11 HHAP program to build it. 12 And there are a few programs, but in the 13 New York State Supportive Housing Program, which is 14 funded through Social Services, through OTDA, is a 15 significant player, particularly outside the state, 16 in providing the on-site supports to make it work. 17 Does that answer your question? 18 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Yeah, thank you. 19 STEVEN PIASECKI: Great. 20 So there's more details, and maybe I'll just 21 leave it, to have you read the testimony later 22 today. 23 You know, we're really hopeful, moving 24 forward, that we can get support from the Senate. 25 We've gotten a lot of support from the 1 Assembly. 2 Like I said, an initial down payment from the 3 Governor's Office, but we're really encouraging an 4 expansion, to really -- 5 SENATOR CARLUCCI: And what you're referring 6 to, in terms of support, is the support of the 7 35,000 units? 8 STEVEN PIASECKI: Yes. 9 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. 10 STEVEN PIASECKI: Exactly. 11 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Right. 12 And you're confident that, 5,000 for the rest 13 of the New York is sufficient; 30,00 for New York 14 City? 15 STEVEN PIASECKI: I think 5,000 is a very 16 realistic -- 17 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Well, realistic -- this is 18 one part that I'm a little confused on. 19 In terms of what you believe the need is, and 20 what's realistic, how about, what you're saying is, 21 the vision, what do we want? And then we can talk, 22 about, you know, being realistic, and bringing it 23 up. 24 Because, obviously, we haven't had anything 25 until -- 1 STEVEN PIASECKI: Right. 2 SENATOR CARLUCCI: -- this newer -- 3 STEVEN PIASECKI: Yeah, I mean, I think 5,000 4 would really, particularly because the way we're 5 working now is targeting resources to the people 6 most in need. It's not a waiting-list model. 7 And all of the continuum cares around the 8 state, the local groups that get together around 9 homelessness, they do an assessment of what the 10 homelessness number is. But they actually then 11 spend a lot of time targeting the resources, which 12 are limited, some of them are federal, to the 13 neediest people. 14 So I think that 5,000 for the rest of the 15 state will solve the problem of chronic 16 homelessness, really get at some of the people who 17 have the largest amounts of expenses to other 18 systems, and make a dramatic difference. 19 I'm not saying homelessness goes away and 20 never comes back. 21 I'm saying any incidences of homelessness 22 would be brief, and addressed promptly, so people 23 won't languish in the shelters or in these other 24 high-need sites, expenses -- high-expensive systems. 25 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Great. 1 And how do you work, or -- with the homeless 2 shelters in terms of, maybe, thoughts on the shelter 3 allowance? 4 STEVEN PIASECKI: In terms of -- there are -- 5 communities, I know, like Westchester across the 6 river, have provided additional resources to the 7 shelter allowance for people moving into supportive 8 housing. 9 They see it as a means of really 10 cost-effectively addressing the overall homelessness 11 issues. 12 So our -- you know, typically, our members 13 are taking referrals directly from shelters; a lot 14 of times directly from the streets. 15 Like I say, communities right now are 16 developing pretty sophisticated systems of 17 centralized intake into the homeless system. 18 So there are models where there's "no wrong 19 door" approach. So wherever you present yourself as 20 homeless, your information will be taken and, you 21 know, your case can move forward. 22 Or, you know, that's like a -- or a 23 centralized one, you know, one-stop, where everybody 24 knows to go to access it. 25 So that's -- so the idea is, and in a lot of 1 cases, homelessness has -- the amount of times that 2 people are staying in shelters, and this is outside 3 the city more than in New York City, are decreasing. 4 There are programs now, also some of the 5 programs that are funded through OTDA, that are 6 rapid rehousing. 7 So for folks that aren't disabled, that don't 8 have chronic homelessness, the idea is to not look 9 for a lengthy shelter placement, but to actually 10 move people back into permanent housing as quickly 11 as possible, or, in some cases, prevent homelessness 12 for people that are becoming evicted, who are 13 one-time interventions. That's the OTDA Step 14 Program. 15 So that's another resource. 16 So the way the system is sort of -- is 17 designed and rolling out, is there are short-term, 18 brief, one-time, titrated interventions for folks 19 who are presenting with an acute need, but not a 20 chronic need. 21 And then there are -- you know, supportive 22 housing is really the answer for the folks that 23 have -- need more complicated circumstances, that 24 really need ongoing support, in order to make their 25 housing placement work. 1 SENATOR CARLUCCI: And would you -- you serve 2 both spectrums? 3 STEVEN PIASECKI: Well, our members do 4 supportive housing, but, a lot of the times, our 5 members do everything. 6 We have members that do transitional housing. 7 We have members who are involved in this sort 8 of rapid-rehousing intervention that I'm talking 9 about. 10 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. 11 STEVEN PIASECKI: So -- but we're primarily 12 focused on that end of the spectrum, that is 13 targeted to people who have multiple disabilities. 14 Really, the folks that have a hard -- have a 15 long history of not being able to successfully stay 16 housed in any other situations, that's how our 17 network got a start many, many years ago. 18 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Now, before you leave, are 19 there any other recommendations that you would like 20 to put out for the supportive housing? 21 STEVEN PIASECKI: That is the only one that 22 I'm here today -- 23 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. 24 STEVEN PIASECKI: -- with reference to the 25 Department of Social Services, the OTDA part of 1 government, and the social services committee. 2 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. Great. 3 Well, Mr. Piasecki, thank you so much for 4 being with us. 5 STEVEN PIASECKI: Thank you. 6 SENATOR CARLUCCI: We look forward to working 7 with you. 8 STEVEN PIASECKI: Great you. 9 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Our next speaker is 10 Susan Antos, the senior staff attorney for 11 Empire Justice Center. 12 SUSAN ANTOS: Good afternoon. 13 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Good afternoon. 14 SUSAN ANTOS: Good afternoon, and thank you 15 for having this hearing. 16 It's so important to be able to, especially 17 off-session when things aren't so crazy, to be able 18 to have a little time to talk about some of the 19 issues, particularly identifying gaps in the 20 social-services system. 21 My name is Susan Antos, and I'm a senior 22 staff attorney at Empire Justice. 23 We're a support center for legal-aid and 24 legal-services offices across the state. 25 We work cooperatively with the New York City 1 folks, but we're not a support center for the 2 New York City folks. 3 The -- we practice in areas that go beyond 4 public benefits, but I'm one of the public-benefits 5 attorneys in our office. 6 We also do civil rights, disability law, 7 immigration, consumer, but there are, essentially, 8 three or four of us that focus on public-benefits 9 issues. 10 The issue that I want to focus on today is a 11 gap in the delivery of social services that has to 12 do with eligibility for people who really only need 13 "temporary assistance," which is what we call it 14 now. 15 I -- we've written a report, I've given you a 16 copy of it, called "Driven Into Poverty," and it's, 17 "How New York's Asset Tests Keep People Poor." 18 And before we get down to the local level, 19 I kind of want to take up to 30,000 feet, and talk a 20 little bit about policy in general, about keeping 21 people out of poverty. 22 As a whole, as a nation, we are more and more 23 encouraging people to do asset-building, to save, 24 particularly for retirement, for home ownership, for 25 their children's education. 1 Our tax code creates many incentives for 2 people to do these things. They are touted as a 3 critical tool in keeping people out of poverty and 4 in shoring up a real middle-class. 5 However, there is a real double-standard when 6 it comes to low-income people and poverty programs. 7 When low-income people squirrel away money, 8 either for education or for buying a home or they -- 9 or for buying a car, and then they hit hard times 10 and apply for public assistance, they are required 11 to, essentially, divest themselves of resources -- 12 and I'm going to talk about the details in a 13 minute -- which then make it harder for them to get 14 out of poverty. 15 On the cover of our report is a real person 16 who really, really wants us to use his name, because 17 he's very mad. 18 His name is Anthony Lapika (ph.). He lives 19 up in Madison County. He worked for 35 years as a 20 stone mason, and built a nice little individual 21 retirement account that he thought was going to 22 support him in his old age. 23 And what happened was, he ended up throwing 24 out his back, which isn't really good for a stone 25 mason, very severely. It required significant 1 surgeries, and he was not able to work anymore. 2 We do have -- because he reported his wages, 3 we do have a social security disability system, so 4 he's now in receipt of social security disability 5 supporting him. 6 He gets that in about the amount of $950 a 7 month. 8 But from the time he stopped working, until 9 the time his social security came through, he had no 10 income at all. 11 He owned his own home. 12 And, when we went to the Department of Social 13 Services to ask for help, they said, You have an 14 IRA. Sorry, you have to liquidate that IRA. 15 So as you may know, when you liquidate an 16 IRA, first off, 10 percent off the top is a penalty 17 because he wasn't yet 59 1/2 when this happened; 18 and, secondly, he had to pay taxes on it. 19 He supported himself with the remainder, 20 until it was gone. 21 Fortunately for him, he only had a couple of 22 months after it was gone and then his 23 social security came through. 24 But now he only lives -- and he's in his 25 60s now, he only lives on his $930 a month in 1 social security. 2 And his roof just fell in during one of these 3 big storms we had. 4 He's on a five-year waiting list for some 5 community program that will help him rebuild his 6 roof, and now he has buckets all over his house. 7 SENATOR CARLUCCI: And since we're talking 8 about this individual, did he have a pension that he 9 was involved with? 10 SUSAN ANTOS: No, no. He was a self-employed 11 stone mason, so he -- 12 SENATOR CARLUCCI: He was self-employed. 13 Okay. 14 SUSAN ANTOS: -- so he -- but he created an 15 IRA for himself for a retirement account. 16 So if he had that IRA, we would have had a 17 little bit of a cushion above and beyond his 18 social security. But in order to make him eligible 19 for public assistance, he -- 20 SENATOR CARLUCCI: So is one of the 21 strategies saying that, if you meet these criteria, 22 that you wouldn't have to pay that penalty? Or 23 maybe that -- 24 SUSAN ANTOS: No. Our -- we're actually 25 bolder. 1 Our proposal is that IRAs should be exempt 2 when people apply for public assistance. 3 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. 4 SUSAN ANTOS: And in your materials 5 I identify, there are 20 states -- this is not a 6 very radical proposal -- there are 20 states, 7 including California and a number of other states, 8 that have exempted IRAs and other retirement 9 accounts for people who apply for public assistance, 10 understanding that people hit rough times. 11 And if you look through fair hearings that 12 the Department of Social -- the Office of Temporary 13 Disability Assistance has, you'll see that this 14 isn't a unique situation. 15 And in our experience, most of the folks that 16 get penalized this way are people who have hit hard 17 times and probably will only need temporary 18 assistance. But this cushion will allow them in 19 their old age to, essentially, be supported by their 20 savings instead of the government. 21 SENATOR CARLUCCI: So the proposal, and how 22 it is in these 20 states, is that it would be 23 completely exempt, the IRA? 24 SUSAN ANTOS: That's correct. 25 SENATOR CARLUCCI: And they wouldn't access 1 it until they meet the eligibility to make 2 withdrawals, and, in the meantime, they would be 3 eligible for benefits? 4 SUSAN ANTOS: That's correct. 5 So all -- of the 20 states that have waived 6 the "resource" rule, 19 of them exempt IRAs 7 totally. 8 Tennessee has a $20,000 cap, so they will 9 only exempt IRAs under $20,000. 10 But, the other 19 states exempt them. 11 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Completely? 12 SUSAN ANTOS: Completely. 13 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Tennessee is the only one 14 with that scale then? 15 SUSAN ANTOS: Yes. 16 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Interesting. Wow. 17 SUSAN ANTOS: Yes. 18 So the other thing -- the other thing 19 I wanted to bring to your attention is that, looking 20 at New Yorkers as a whole, it's a sort of shocking 21 figure that over 44 percent of New Yorkers do not 22 have enough savings to go three months. 23 And so looking at that, as a state, we should 24 say: What can we do to encourage savings? What can 25 we do to encourage people to have a safety net? 1 More and more states are saying, we need to 2 encourage savings, we need to encourage support. 3 Since 1996, when the Temporary Assistance to 4 Needy Families Block Grant went into effect and 5 allowed states to set their own eligibility rules, 6 eight states have eliminated the asset test for 7 people applying for public-assistance benefits 8 altogether; any asset test, not just retirement 9 accounts. 10 And in your -- in the papers I gave you, 11 there's a little info-graphic with those states. 12 And the interesting thing about states, 13 I know the worry is that, Well, if we eliminate the 14 asset tests, we're going to increase caseloads. 15 There have been follow-up studies in five of 16 the states -- Alabama, Colorado, Louisiana, 17 Virginia, and Michigan -- who -- they've looked at 18 the increase in caseload as a result of the asset 19 test, and the increase has been little to none, 20 which kind of shows that most people will rely on 21 their cushions rather than turn to the 22 public-assistance system if they can. 23 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Now, is this -- the eight 24 states that you mentioned, are there any overlap 25 with the 20 that you mentioned before? 1 Because it seems -- 2 SUSAN ANTOS: Yes. 3 SENATOR CARLUCCI: There is? 4 SUSAN ANTOS: Yes. 5 So -- 6 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Because it seems that if 7 you did the first -- if you did the latter, with the 8 eight states -- 9 SUSAN ANTOS: Right. 10 SENATOR CARLUCCI: -- you wouldn't have to do 11 the first one. 12 SUSAN ANTOS: That's correct. 13 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. 14 SUSAN ANTOS: Right. 15 So the twenty I mentioned include these eight 16 that have eliminated the asset test because they 17 don't count any assets. 18 So -- in fact, I have, which I am happy to 19 share with you -- 20 SENATOR CARLUCCI: While we're on -- we 21 talked about -- I know you're going into other 22 items. 23 SUSAN ANTOS: Yes. 24 SENATOR CARLUCCI: There are any other 25 investment vehicles that you would talk about 1 recommendations on? 2 SUSAN ANTOS: Yes, I'm getting to that. 3 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay, you are? 4 SUSAN ANTOS: Yep. 5 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. 6 SUSAN ANTOS: Yep. 7 So the -- just one other thing I want to talk 8 about, savings, is that, oddly enough, what you 9 might not think of a saving, Illinois did a study, 10 because they've just recently repealed their 11 "resource" rule, and they did a study, and they 12 found out that they spent a million dollars in 13 caseworker time, verifying resources, and only found 14 that eight applicants were over their resource 15 limits. 16 So that was one big motivational factor in 17 terms of them eliminating their "resource" rule. 18 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Now, what you hear, 19 though, on the flip side of that, and you even heard 20 it from the previous testimony, our first speaker, 21 on local social services, when we talk about the 22 issues, we say, "Oh, well, fraud is not a big deal," 23 but then when we get recommendations, it's all 24 fraud-related. 25 So wouldn't this kind of be in the face of 1 that? 2 Because what we were just talking about 3 before was, validating people, and not just for the 4 purpose of saying, Hey, you qualify, or you don't, 5 but to make sure that you get the right resources. 6 SUSAN ANTOS: Right. 7 SENATOR CARLUCCI: So that example would kind 8 of say we're getting rid of all of that human 9 interaction. 10 SUSAN ANTOS: Well, I'm not -- I think human 11 interaction is good, because I think some of the 12 things, in terms of making people available -- aware 13 of the services and programs that can help them with 14 other things. But you actually take away a lot of 15 the fraud if you don't have the "resource" rules. 16 Because one -- you know, one of the things 17 that we see, and it wasn't the case for the 18 gentleman who's on the cover of our report, but 19 we've had clients come to us who had jobs where they 20 had an IRA when they were young. And, of course, 21 you can't access it, so they don't even think about 22 it. They apply for public assistance. They don't 23 put on it their application, because they didn't 24 even remember they have it. 25 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Right. 1 SUSAN ANTOS: And through a computer check, 2 this small IRA comes up. You know, some counties 3 will be understanding about it, but other -- and 4 just deny the application. 5 Other counties will accuse the person of 6 fraud. 7 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Wow. 8 SUSAN ANTOS: If you don't -- 9 SENATOR CARLUCCI: And we have examples of 10 that -- 11 SUSAN ANTOS: Oh, yes. 12 SENATOR CARLUCCI: -- where people have been 13 convicted of that? 14 SUSAN ANTOS: Oh, yes. 15 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Wow. 16 SUSAN ANTOS: Oh, yes. 17 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. 18 SUSAN ANTOS: So, again, you take away the 19 fraud piece. 20 I did want to talk about vehicles. That's a 21 big concern -- 22 SENATOR CARLUCCI: And just before we move 23 on -- 24 SUSAN ANTOS: Sure. 25 SENATOR CARLUCCI: -- what would you say to 1 the critics of that proposal, that you would take 2 away the asset test? 3 What -- people would say, Oh, well, you're 4 going to have people apply that don't need it or are 5 abusing the system. 6 What would you say to that? 7 SUSAN ANTOS: Well, I would be happy to 8 share, if this is something that you're interested 9 in, we have the information from the five states 10 that I mentioned that did the follow-up research. 11 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Eight, right, originally, 12 you said -- 13 SUSAN ANTOS: Well, eight states eliminated 14 the asset tests altogether. 15 Five states did a research to determine what 16 the impact was on the size of their caseloads -- 17 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Ah. 18 SUSAN ANTOS: -- that I'm aware of. 19 Maybe they all did, but I'm aware of five of 20 them, and they all found little to no impact. 21 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Interesting. 22 SUSAN ANTOS: And so that is -- you know, 23 these states did studies, and -- 24 SENATOR CARLUCCI: And that's where you said 25 they actually saved money because there was less 1 time verifying -- 2 SUSAN ANTOS: That's correct. 3 SENATOR CARLUCCI: -- the fact? 4 Okay. 5 SUSAN ANTOS: The other issue that we're very 6 concerned about is the "automobile resource" rule. 7 The -- as you know, New York State is a big 8 state, and public transportation is an issue, 9 particularly outside of New York City. 10 We have information here in terms of job 11 readiness, that a person with reliable access to a 12 car is twice as likely to find a job as someone 13 without, and four times as likely to keep that job. 14 In New York State we have a couple of issues 15 with our "auto resource" rule. 16 Right now, the "automobile resource" rule is 17 $9,300 if you need that car to work or look for 18 work. 19 It's $4,650 if you need -- if you don't need 20 the car to work or look for work. 21 But what that means is, that if you're a 22 disabled individual, you may still need your car for 23 many things. 24 If your car is worth over $4,650, you're 25 going to be denied public assistance. 1 The -- particularly for people who have been 2 working, and then are hitting hard times, it makes 3 no sense to make them get rid of a reliable car. 4 SENATOR CARLUCCI: This was a question I had 5 before, and I know someone had told me -- 6 SUSAN ANTOS: Okay. 7 SENATOR CARLUCCI: -- but, the value of the 8 car, how do you figure that? 9 Is that the Kelly Blue Book value? 10 SUSAN ANTOS: Kelly Blue Book is the one 11 that's most often used. 12 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. 13 SUSAN ANTOS: The recipient, if they can 14 bring in a reputable estimate that shows, for some 15 special reason, that their car is valued less than 16 the Kelly Blue Book, maybe it has some damage -- 17 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. 18 SUSAN ANTOS: -- then the district should 19 take that estimate. 20 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Interesting. 21 Okay. 22 SUSAN ANTOS: The other issue that we have in 23 New York, and, interestingly, I have three cases 24 right now that have been brought to my attention 25 from three different counties in the state, and 1 these are all people who have cars in which they 2 have little or no equity. 3 The value of cars in New York is valued at 4 its fair-market value. 5 And in each of these three cases, people 6 applying for public assistance have cars over this 7 resource level, not by much, but they -- but they're 8 over this resource level. 9 One of the families that contacted us has 10 six children and a minivan, and a car worth $13,000. 11 The father in the family works as a 12 landscaper. He also had some health issues that 13 were short-term. 14 His family turned to public assistance during 15 that time, and they were told that they had to sell 16 their car to get public assistance. 17 Now, if you have no equity in your vehicle, 18 that makes no sense. 19 What happened was, in this particular case, 20 is that the gentleman, for some reason, the agency 21 made an error and gave him public assistance. 22 By the time they realized the error, he was 23 back at work. 24 So now, instead of having to have sold his 25 car to get public assistance, he's now being charged 1 with an overpayment of public assistance for the 2 four months that his family received public 3 assistance while he was between jobs. 4 It makes no sense for someone to have to have 5 sold their vehicle, and then have nothing, because 6 they have no equity in the vehicle. 7 SENATOR CARLUCCI: And part of your argument 8 is saying this is in violation of the ADA? 9 SUSAN ANTOS: Well, the 9300, 4650 -- 10 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Having that -- 11 SUSAN ANTOS: -- is definitely a violation of 12 the Americans with Disabilities Act, because it's 13 imposing a condition of eligibility that adversely 14 affects people with disabilities. 15 SENATOR CARLUCCI: So now, besides 16 eliminating that two-tiered system, do you have 17 recommendations on what to do about -- 18 SUSAN ANTOS: Yes. 19 Our recommendation is that New York eliminate 20 the "resource" rule entirely for automobiles. 21 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. 22 SUSAN ANTOS: And that may seem like a 23 radical notion, but there are only 14 states in the 24 entire country that have an "auto resource" rule. 25 Every other state in the country has 1 abolished the "resource" rule. 2 Now, some of them are different than others, 3 in that some say one per household; some say one per 4 adult. But, within that range, they say, We don't 5 look at the value of the car. You're allowed to own 6 a car when you apply for public assistance. 7 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. 8 SUSAN ANTOS: And there are only 14 states 9 left, including New York, that have a resource 10 level. 11 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Does it touch upon any 12 contractual obligations, like a lease or a loan, for 13 a car that you already entered into? 14 SUSAN ANTOS: Well, oddly enough, the rule in 15 New York is that if you're leasing a car, it doesn't 16 count as a resource because you don't really own it. 17 So -- 18 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Just kind of exempt in a 19 way? 20 SUSAN ANTOS: Yeah, well, and it's not yours 21 to liquidate. 22 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Right. 23 SUSAN ANTOS: And so, in the rare instance 24 that people have leased cars instead of owned them, 25 it doesn't very -- happen very much with low-income 1 people. 2 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Right. 3 SUSAN ANTOS: The -- it's not a disqualifying 4 resource. 5 SENATOR CARLUCCI: So -- okay. 6 Interesting. 7 SUSAN ANTOS: Yeah. 8 So there have been initiatives. 9 This last session, you had a bill that would 10 exclude college-savings accounts. 11 We strongly support that bill. 12 There was another bill Senator Krueger and 13 Assemblymember Titus sponsored, that would at least 14 take care of the Americans with Disabilities Act 15 issue, the two-tier issue, and make it a uniform 16 $9300 exemption. 17 We, of course, support that bill, but we 18 would recommend that New York join the other states 19 and exempt an automobile altogether. 20 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. 21 SUSAN ANTOS: We will have other 22 recommendations as we get closer to the session for 23 you. 24 I was happy to hear the commissioner talking 25 about the inadequate shelter allowance. 1 I know that's a concern that you're probably 2 going to hear from other people, and I know that 3 it's a concern that we share as well. 4 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Have you looked at that 5 closely, and have recommendations for that yet? 6 Or -- 7 SUSAN ANTOS: We are looking at that closely, 8 and we will have recommendations. 9 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. Great. 10 This is extremely helpful. I really 11 appreciate it. 12 I do have so many questions for you, because 13 this is something that I'm obviously very interested 14 in. I think it's extremely important. 15 The statistic that you gave about, I believe 16 you said 46 percent of New Yorkers, or 41 percent, 17 or 44 percent, of New Yorkers don't have adequate 18 savings for three months. 19 SUSAN ANTOS: Three months, and that's a look 20 at all New Yorkers. 21 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Right. And that's 22 something that I think, if we can help, and, you 23 know, get people to a system where we can 24 incentivize them to save, so if they lose their job, 25 they're not on the street. 1 And that's something that I'm deeply 2 passionate about, and have tried to do some 3 legislation that would do that, in a way, to 4 incentivize savings. Just savings. Not a 5 retirement account. 6 SUSAN ANTOS: Yes. 7 SENATOR CARLUCCI: But maybe something for 8 people in a certain income range, that they would be 9 able to save, tax-free, into this account, and it 10 would be just for the purpose of building wealth; 11 just for the purpose to be more independent, and not 12 living paycheck to paycheck. 13 Obviously, that meets up against some of the 14 rules of IRS and our federal government. But 15 I believe that if we think hard and we work 16 together, there could be some mechanisms that we 17 could use. 18 I like to point to some of the things that 19 New York has come up with, with things like 20 START-UP NY, and some of the these incentives, to 21 get some of the wealthiest people and the biggest 22 corporations here in New York. 23 And I think we could focus on some of our 24 middle-income families and low-income families, and 25 adopt some of those same strategies, but give 1 them -- give low-income workers the tools they need 2 to get themselves out of poverty, and we'll save so 3 much in the long run. 4 So I have some legislation that I have worked 5 on. I don't think it's perfect by any means. 6 But, I'd love to have your opinion and the 7 Empire Justice Center's opinion on that, and see if 8 can work on those. 9 SUSAN ANTOS: Wonderful. 10 Thank you. 11 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Great. 12 SUSAN ANTOS: I wasn't planning on including 13 it with my testimony, but since you seem to be 14 interested, I only have one copy of this, but, there 15 is an Assets-and-Opportunities Scorecard that is 16 created by a national organization which gives a 17 state-by-state analysis of what the "resource" rules 18 are. 19 Would you be interested in that? 20 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Great. Absolutely. 21 Thank you. 22 SUSAN ANTOS: I only have one copy with me, 23 but I'm happy to give you my copy. 24 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Appreciate it. 25 Thank you so much. 1 SUSAN ANTOS: And they update it every 2 six months or so. 3 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Oh, excellent. 4 Great. 5 All right. Thank you very much. 6 Our next speaker is Ken Stephens, a 7 supervising attorney for Legal Aid Society of 8 New York. 9 KEN STEPHENS: Thank you, Senator, for 10 bringing us together. 11 As is already obvious I think from the first 12 three speakers you've had this afternoon, there's a 13 consensus, in some ways, about some of the problems 14 that we're confronting, and I think some very good 15 ideas and first steps. 16 I was particularly impressed with the very 17 thoughtful testimony from the commissioner here in 18 Rockland County, who identified both, problems, in 19 terms of shelter allowance being one of them, and 20 how out of sync that is, and, also, the idea of 21 solutions, with very much looking more human touch 22 and integrated services, because there are, in fact, 23 so many people who are served through the county 24 social-services districts, who do have a range of 25 disabilities, and, the need to create opportunities 1 for people who can work, to be able to work their 2 way out of poverty, and address the needs of, as she 3 put it in very nice terms, the newest Americans, the 4 immigrants, who are living in our communities. 5 We have prepared some fairly extensive 6 testimony on issues that are of great concern to the 7 Legal Aid Society. 8 Just, very quickly, the Legal Aid Society is 9 the oldest and largest nonprofit public-interest law 10 firm in the world. 11 We currently serve over 300,000 individuals 12 each year through our practice in the criminal 13 justice, juvenile justice, and civil practice. 14 My particular job at Legal Aid is a 15 supervising attorney in what we call the "law-reform 16 unit," where we try and look at cases that are 17 coming in from our local neighborhood offices and 18 through other organizations that we work with on a 19 regular basis, and look at, Are there systemic 20 approaches? 21 Because, the way things are, you know, 22 there's just not enough legal services, lawyers, 23 unfortunately, to address all of the individual 24 problems. 25 And, quite frankly, from the point of view of 1 good government, it doesn't make sense, when you can 2 solve a problem, you know, on a systemic basis, to, 3 instead, keep repeating and seeing client after 4 client with the same problem over and over and over. 5 My friend and colleague Susan Antos talking 6 about, for instance, reforms on the assets test, 7 I think has laid out a very sensible approach to an 8 issue that both, meets a need, and would simplify 9 and streamline the administrative process. 10 As she was talking, and you had your 11 colloquy, about possible fraud when there really was 12 no fraud, I'm reminded of a situation we've had with 13 New York City, where there have been some computer 14 errors, and so they had information about banks and 15 bank savings that was totally inaccurate because one 16 digit was off in a computer string. 17 So people were being told that they had a 18 bank account someplace upstate, and it was all a 19 mistake. All, just, you know, people being denied; 20 people in a lot of need, being denied benefits, 21 because of an administrative process that might have 22 been totally avoidable from the outset. 23 And so when you have those opportunities, 24 there is obviously a need for more people in this 25 field to help people one-on-one. 1 And one of the best ways to do that is, in 2 fact, to reduce bureaucracy when you can. 3 We all know that it's very important to be on 4 top of any potential fraud. 5 But I can tell you, I once had a frank 6 conversation with somebody who worked for a former 7 commissioner, who said, you know: The money we're 8 spending on fraud protection far exceeds the actual 9 benefits, but we have to do it. We have to do it 10 because the public expects us to do it, and because 11 program integrity is really important when you're 12 trying to help poor people. That the public needs 13 to know that their funds are not being wasted on 14 people who, frankly, are committing fraud. 15 But your observation, I think, is strictly on 16 point, that, in many ways, the rhetoric around fraud 17 exceeds the actual real problem that exists. 18 And I think the commissioner herself was 19 indicating as much. 20 I'm going to jump into something pretty 21 quickly, you know, poverty. 22 When you talk about gaps in the 23 social-services systems, I mean, one of the most 24 fundamental, I think, goals of our social-service 25 system is to address and support people living in 1 poverty. 2 And, unfortunately, we're in a situation now 3 where, in New York, we have too many people who are 4 continuing to live in poverty, and many of them for 5 too long. 6 Part of the problem, from the 30,000 feet, if 7 you will, is that our social-services system hasn't 8 adequately addressed the impact of inflation on the 9 support network that was designed to be there as a 10 safety net for people who are in need. 11 And as Ms. Antos was testifying, since most 12 working Americans only have three months worth of 13 saving, you not only have to talk about people for 14 whom they've been living in poverty all their lives, 15 but people who could be, you know, they're just one 16 bad medical incident, or one bad life event, one bad 17 plant closing, one -- you know, one bad budget 18 crunch in the public sector, and they're back in the 19 state of need also; or, you know, something like the 20 mega-crisis we had in 2008 with the bank failures, 21 banking crisis. 22 So, currently, the standard of need, the 23 shelter allowance, in New York City, and it varies 24 from county to county, but it's -- New York City is 25 pretty typical. I think, Rockland, the shelter 1 allowance is pretty similar. 2 $400 for a family of three. 3 $400 for a family of three. 4 When I told my mother that, she said, "Oh, 5 $400 a week, it's not too much, but you ought to be 6 able to do that." 7 I said, "No, mom. It's $400 a month." 8 She said, "Who makes up these rules?" 9 And the answer is, the rules were made up, in 10 reality, years, in fact, almost decades ago, and 11 they probably never accurately reflected the cost of 12 housing, the real cost of housing, in high-rent 13 areas like we have here in the Lower Hudson Valley, 14 Long Island, and New York City. 15 But it becomes so far out of sync; yet, 16 they've helped create what we've been calling this 17 year, "the homelessness catastrophe." 18 Two years ago you had a homelessness crisis. 19 Since then, I think there's been an 20 additional 20,000 people who have been forced into 21 the homeless-shelter system, and many more living on 22 the streets. Many of them, as you know from your 23 work for many years, are people who have psychiatric 24 disabilities. 25 Strengthening the Supportive Housing Network, 1 as was suggested by Mr. Piasecki, makes a lot of 2 sense, but we also have to look at just supporting 3 people who could stay in their homes, or secure 4 homes, if only the shelter allowance more closely 5 matched the reality. 6 In New York City, the fair-market rent for a 7 two-bedroom apartment is $1,400. 8 So you're talking about $1,000 gap between 9 the shelter allowance and reality. 10 And that $1,400 is something that HUD comes 11 up with, and they update each year, $1,480, and it's 12 not meant to be luxury living. It's just your basic 13 apartment, that's what it costs. 14 I think today you're even finding it 15 difficult to find a two-bedroom apartment in areas 16 in New York City, and much of the Hudson Valley and 17 Long Island, at that level. 18 So you have, you know, swaths. 19 We have in our testimony, on page 8, 20 I provided you with a little map we've developed, 21 that shows the level of difference between the 22 shelter allowance and the fair-market rents 23 throughout the state. And we've color-coded it so 24 that you can see that, you know, it's a problem, 25 even up in Buffalo, but it's also much more 1 significantly a problem in certain areas of the 2 state that are subject to high rents. 3 That's just reality. 4 SENATOR CARLUCCI: So according to this map, 5 there's at least a $300 difference in any part of 6 the state? 7 KEN STEPHENS: Exactly, exactly, exactly. 8 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. 9 KEN STEPHENS: That's the lowest. 10 So, we have a specific recommendation, that 11 the Legislature adjust the shelter allowance, as a 12 first step, a down payment, if you will, to at least 13 50 percent of the fair-market rent. 14 It should be higher than 50 percent, and I'm 15 putting that out as a minimal. 16 That would mean that, a family in 17 New York City, the shelter allowance would go up 18 to -- from $400, to about $770. 19 So it's still, obviously, going to be a 20 challenge to find housing at that level if you only 21 were to make that much of a down payment, but it 22 will at least begin to create a path. 23 My office worked with the legislature, and 24 eventually the executive branch, back, from 2005 to 25 2008, to come up with a plan to raise the other part 1 of what's known as the, you know, "public assistance 2 grant," which they call the "basic grant." 3 And what we came up with was a plan to phase 4 in and increase over a series of years. It was a 5 multi-year phase-in. 6 And I think that's what you want to probably 7 look at here, because, frankly, the numbers are 8 large. 9 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Just a question on that. 10 So if we tied the 50 percent of fair-market 11 rent, in a way, you're tying it to HUD standards, 12 which we expect to increase, or make those 13 adjustments every year -- 14 KEN STEPHENS: Exactly. 15 SENATOR CARLUCCI: -- where right now we're 16 stagnant? 17 KEN STEPHENS: Exactly. 18 And that's a good point, because the way the 19 law is currently structured, the legislature has 20 left it up to the executive branch to set the 21 shelter allowance. 22 That record speaks for itself. 23 I'm sorry to say, but, you know, 24 four governors and so many commissioners later, we 25 are still living in the situation where, you know, 1 you only have a $400 shelter allowance for a family 2 of three. 3 In order to address the difference, what we 4 call the "affordability gap," because even if you 5 come up to 770, you're still going to need, at least 6 in some cases, to raise that to prevent 7 homelessness. 8 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Now, are you aware, as 9 Mr. Piasecki had talked about, that 10 Westchester County has supplemented the shelter 11 allowance? 12 KEN STEPHENS: Yes. 13 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Have other counties done 14 that? 15 KEN STEPHENS: Yes. 16 SENATOR CARLUCCI: And how are they doing 17 that? 18 KEN STEPHENS: Yeah, we've laid out, 19 New York City has the largest shelter-supplement 20 program. 21 Westchester, Nassau, and Suffolk, pretty much 22 the highest rent areas. 23 SENATOR CARLUCCI: The map on page 8, that 24 doesn't include the supplement from the County; 25 right? 1 KEN STEPHENS: No, it doesn't. 2 SENATOR CARLUCCI: All right. 3 KEN STEPHENS: But, for an example, in 4 New York City, we call it the -- it's called "FEPS" 5 (Family Eviction Prevention Supplement). 6 That will currently bring you up to $850 for 7 a family of three, if I -- yes. 8 The FEPS supplement, this is on page 11 of 9 our testimony. 10 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Yes. 11 KEN STEPHENS: So -- and that gives you an 12 idea. 13 I think the other counties are somewhat 14 similar, but you still have that gap. 15 So our proposal is, take the supplement -- 16 I mean, take the shelter allowance up almost to the 17 level now that the supplement was set, which was 18 set, by the way, Senator, back in, you know, 19 mostly -- most of that was set back in 2003, over a 20 decade ago, and allow local districts, on a 21 case-by-case basis, where it makes sense, to avoid 22 homelessness, to prevent eviction, and, in fact, to 23 save money, because the homeless shelters are 24 costing about $3,000 a month. 25 You're also talking about, study after study 1 has shown that homeless people are going to be more 2 frequent users of emergency rooms. They're going to 3 drive up those Medicaid costs that the commissioner 4 and others are concerned about. 5 So, districts will need to have that 6 flexibility to go up to at least the fair-market 7 rent, to prevent homelessness. 8 But you don't have to -- you don't have to 9 start off, in my -- in our proposal, to legislate 10 that the shelter allowance be at the fair-market 11 rent. 12 I mean, I think that there's some logic for 13 doing that, but being aware of the realities of the 14 budget world, it does seem to me that it makes sense 15 to incrementally move in that direction. But it's 16 long past due to take that important first step. 17 SENATOR CARLUCCI: So this really should be, 18 we should include this conversation in the overall 19 talk about how we're moving to managed care, the big 20 funding that's around DSRIP, which, if you're aware 21 of that, maybe this is a way to say, Look, we should 22 include this conversation in that because, overall, 23 it's going to keep health-care costs down. 24 KEN STEPHENS: Yes. 25 You know, I think for the first time, in the 1 past year, the State used some Medicaid-savings 2 moneys to do supportive housing. 3 And I know that, you know, years ago, we 4 learned that in, I think it was San Francisco, a 5 doctor in an emergency room issued a prescription 6 for stable housing, because, quite literally, he was 7 dealing with an individual with psychiatric 8 distress, and, you know, housing first. 9 I mean, without a stable living environment, 10 the likelihood that that person wasn't going to be 11 back either at the emergency room or in a -- 12 hospitalized was pretty slim. 13 And so your observation, I think, is an 14 insightful one, that there is a close linkage 15 between housing costs, the supportive that people 16 need, and the avoidance of other costs, either, you 17 know, in the health system, or, quite frankly, in 18 the criminal justice system, where you'll also see, 19 you know, connections there. 20 Recently, in Columbia University, Dr. Noble 21 and a group of physicians from around the country 22 have documented the impact of poverty on infant 23 brain development. 24 So we're at the point now where we can -- you 25 know, we've always appreciated, on a human level, 1 that poverty hurts people. 2 And now we can see that, you know, you 3 actually may be causing irreversible, and in some 4 cases, multi-generational, poverty by not providing 5 the proper supports in the first place. 6 I'm going to move quickly to just a couple of 7 other points we've brought to you this afternoon for 8 your consideration, some of which bear on the same 9 theme of addressing what I call "inflation erosion 10 over time." 11 And as somebody with a financial background, 12 I know that you can appreciate the fact that, you 13 know, you can't ignore the effect of inflation over 14 long periods of time. 15 You couldn't -- you know, as an individual 16 trying to plan for your retirement, you can't avoid 17 it, and, as public officials, we can't avoid it. 18 The people who depend upon our 19 Social Security Supplemental Security Income system, 20 some of the most vulnerable New Yorkers, senior 21 citizens, and those with disabilities, haven't been 22 able to see the New York State supplement to the 23 federal Social Security SSI program increase at a 24 pace that keeps up with inflation. 25 We've given you a chart that lays out how 1 dramatically that failure to adjust for inflation 2 affects these individuals, so that seniors are 3 forced to live in poverty. 4 They're not even given enough support, 5 basically, to live at the poverty level under the 6 federal standards, which probably, you know, 7 understates the case for New York. 8 In New York, the federal standards, right now 9 we have 16 percent. But if you use a realistic 10 standard, it's closer to 18 or higher, something 11 that reflects New York. 12 One of the other recommendations: 13 So we're recommending that the Legislature 14 this year adjusts the State Supplemental Income 15 program so that it actually reflects income erosion, 16 because people now only have 41 cents on the dollar 17 that they had when the program began in the 1970s. 18 You know, poor people just can't afford that. 19 Another area where you see the impact of 20 trying to ignore inflation is in the area that we've 21 identified as "earned-income disregard." 22 And this is important because, in order for 23 the social-services program to succeed, we want 24 those who are able to work to be able to earn their 25 way out of poverty. 1 It's the most fundament -- it's what 2 I call -- consider the "low-hanging fruit." 3 You really want to support those people who 4 have shown initiative, who have gotten back into the 5 workforce. 6 And, the program that's set up now only 7 offers a $90 disregard, that was set years ago, and, 8 it excludes anybody who doesn't a minor child. 9 So if you're a mom who has a 16-year-old, 10 17-year-old, daughter, and you've worked really 11 hard, struggling, and now she's going to go to 12 college, she's going to turn 18, suddenly you're 13 going to lose that support, at exactly the wrong 14 time? 15 And what better way to ensure failure than 16 having a rigid rule that excludes individuals in 17 that circumstance. 18 So, you know, based on, you know, prior 19 discussions we have had with your office, we think 20 that this is an area that you would be keenly 21 interested in, because we believe that there's a 22 growing consensus that people need a transition to 23 employment. 24 And that frequently now, for our clients in 25 particular, employment is transitory at the 1 beginning. They may not be able to secure lasting 2 employment and they may not be able to secure 3 full-time employment either. 4 It's kind of the rule of the day, 5 unfortunately. 6 So you want to make sure that you don't have, 7 as we were discussing earlier, a cliff, where people 8 suddenly fall off, and all the progress that might 9 have been made is suddenly lost because of some 10 rigid application of a rule that's at latest 11 10 years out of date. 12 And, finally, we're recognizing that the new 13 Americans, immigrants, could achieve -- with 14 disabilities in particular, could be very much 15 helped by a change in the state's supplemental 16 program. 17 We're now 20 years past the initial wave of 18 so-called "welfare reform." 19 And one of the most pernicious things that 20 happened, was there was some really -- some real 21 heavy anti-immigrant flavor to legislation back 22 then, quite frankly, and, so people are no longer 23 eligible for federal SSI. 24 And we in New York State have decided to 25 follow that rule and not provide those people with 1 the state supplement that we provide to other 2 individuals with disabilities. 3 That's a decision that's totally within the 4 realm of Albany, New York. We can make that 5 decision. 6 And if we do so, it's a two-for-one, because 7 not only are you securing a basic level of income 8 for those immigrants with disabilities, but you're 9 also making them eligible for federal SNAP benefits, 10 because they've also been excluded from the 11 SNAP program. 12 So, you're kind of being able to leverage 13 state dollars to bring in some federal dollars, and 14 at the same time support these individuals. 15 So, it's another area in which we think it's 16 a commonsense reform that will help people who need 17 help, but also draw in the federal government as a 18 kind of partner in helping these families secure a 19 more stable living -- standard of living. 20 Thank you. 21 There's a -- we're happy to continue a 22 discussion with you and the Committee. 23 There's a lot of things that can be done. 24 And I just would say, we're really encouraged 25 that you've begun this process of calling people 1 together, because it's been a long time overdue. 2 Thank you. 3 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Well, Ken, thank you very 4 much. 5 And these recommendations are extremely 6 helpful. I mean, this is really a goldmine of great 7 ideas, so I really appreciate that. 8 KEN STEPHENS: Thank you very much, Senator. 9 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Look forward to working 10 with you further. 11 Thank you. 12 Next we have Tracie Robinson, who's the 13 executive -- or, is filling in for Allison Sesso who 14 is the executive director of Human Services Council 15 of New York. 16 And, Tracie, if give us your title, that 17 would be great. 18 TRACIE ROBINSON: Tracie Robinson. I'm the 19 policy analyst for the Human Services Council. 20 Unfortunately, Allison Sesso was unable to 21 make it today, so I am testifying on her behalf. 22 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Great. Thanks for being 23 with us. 24 TRACIE ROBINSON: Thank you so much for 25 having us, for inviting the Human Services Council, 1 and for having these hearings. 2 This is really important work, and the topic 3 is obviously important, and the discussion is long 4 overdue. 5 I would like to start by saying that I think 6 it's really important that you invited the 7 Human Services Council to testify because, for us, 8 this really is a recognition of the role of 9 nonprofit human-services providers in combating 10 poverty. 11 And, obviously, we are really grateful for 12 the opportunity to talk about some of the issues 13 that our sector is facing. 14 I'll just highlight some of the issues that 15 we address in our written testimony, and I will do 16 my best to keep my oral remarks brief. 17 So as you know, nonprofit human-services 18 providers play a critical role in combating poverty, 19 but I think it's important to note that there are 20 two sides to this coin. 21 So not only do non-profits serve as bridges 22 to opportunity for New Yorkers in need, providing 23 all kinds of services, including child care, child 24 development, services for the elderly, services for 25 the hungry, services for the needy, those with 1 chemical-dependency issues, and all kinds challenges 2 that they're facing in life, the other side of the 3 coin is that nonprofit human-services providers are 4 also an economic engine for our state. 5 This is a multi-billion-dollar industry in 6 New York State, and so I tend to shy away from 7 characterizing what we do too much as charity. 8 First of all, many of the challenges that our 9 sector's clients face are challenges they face 10 through no fault of their own. 11 And second of all, the sector does employ 12 almost 20 percent of the state's workforce. 13 So that's just to provide a backdrop to some 14 of the issues that I want to highlight today. 15 The first, and sort of overarching theme, 16 I think, of my remarks, is institutional 17 underfunding of programs. 18 We all know that government agencies don't 19 always pay the full cost of running a 20 social-services program, no matter what that type of 21 program may be. 22 Our sector has sustained nearly $1 billion in 23 funding cuts since the financial crisis. 24 We're hearing now that we're on the road to 25 recovery, but, to be honest, for our sector, the 1 crisis isn't over. We're still seeing the effects 2 of the recession. 3 The problem is that underfunding of programs 4 doesn't actually save money. 5 I think a lot of times the government and the 6 public think that by underfunding social-services 7 programs they're saving taxpayer dollars. 8 But as you've already heard from some of the 9 people who testified today, a lot of social-services 10 programs actually are proven to save taxpayer 11 dollars. 12 I think, in this regard, supportive housing 13 is really the shining star. 14 We constantly hear about how that saves so 15 much money for taxpayers, by keeping individuals out 16 of more expensive emergency-care situations. 17 It costs taxpayers money, also, by crippling 18 organizations that provide a safety net in the 19 state. 20 When nonprofit human-services providers are 21 underfunded, not only does that mean that their 22 workers face low salaries and have lower purchasing 23 power and are unable to contribute less to the 24 economy of the state and the nation, but, obviously, 25 it limits the quality and scope of services that can 1 be delivered. 2 So the next point is related to the 3 institutional underfunding of programs, and the 4 previous speaker really highlighted this very well 5 in regard to inflation. 6 One of the things that the Human Services 7 Council has been a tireless advocate for is 8 cost-of-living adjustments for the human-services 9 sector. We refer to them as "COLAs," as short. 10 This is always a battle, when, in fact, COLAs 11 should be systemized and automatic. 12 We all know that inflation happens. It's -- 13 there's no refuting that fact. 14 Rents never go down. 15 Costs of doing business never seem to go 16 down. 17 And, yet, over the past eight years or so, 18 our sector has really had to fight for 19 cost-of-living adjustments. 20 We went more than five consecutive years 21 without a cost-of-living adjustment. 22 And I just want to highlight some of the 23 consequences of this underfunding and chronic 24 failure to acknowledge the impact of inflation on 25 our sector. 1 When COLAs are not given, this means that 2 employees of human-services organizations, 3 obviously, they don't get raises. 4 What are the practical implications of that? 5 What it means is that, it's hard to attract 6 and retain qualified, caring, dedicated workers. 7 If you are a client of a human-services 8 organization and you have a different caseworker 9 every time you go in, the quality of service that 10 you're getting is, de facto, not as good as it could 11 be. 12 And so in terms of identifying gaps in the 13 delivery of social services, I think COLAs play a 14 huge role in that. 15 It's very hard to maintain a qualified 16 workforce and continuity of services for people who 17 really, in most cases, need continuity. 18 It's not just the service itself that 19 matters. It's the relationship they have with the 20 person who's providing that service on the front 21 lines. 22 And so the failure to give COLAs to our 23 sector has really impacted the ability of providers 24 to deliver high-quality services. 25 COLAs also impact the ability of nonprofit 1 human-services providers to invest in 2 infrastructure. 3 And that actually leads to another issue that 4 we wanted to highlight today, which is the Nonprofit 5 Infrastructure Capital Investment Program. 6 HSC is really delighted to see this 7 recognition of our sector and of our infrastructure 8 needs. 9 The $50 million infrastructure fund is a 10 great start, but it is only a drop in the bucket in 11 the sense that, for large human-services providers 12 who have budgets that are well in excess of 13 $50 million a year, there's so much they can do with 14 $50 million. 15 I think that one of our members could 16 actually exhaust those funds in a year. 17 Our -- the infrastructure in our sector is 18 crumbling. 19 Organizations don't have the money to invest 20 in salaries. They don't have the money to invest in 21 professional development for their staff. 22 But the other side of that is that they also 23 don't have money to invest in their facilities, they 24 don't have money to invest in certain unfunded 25 mandates pertaining to information services and 1 information-management systems, particularly with 2 respect to our members who provide health services. 3 There are lots of recordkeeping requirements 4 and electronic-data requirements that they're really 5 struggling to keep up with and to remain in 6 compliance with. 7 So there's so much that our members could do. 8 And I actually have a list of just a few of 9 the things. This is actually a wish list that we 10 got from our members. These are just a few of the 11 things that they would do with some of this 12 infrastructure funding: 13 Modifying existing structures to be fully 14 accessible to individuals with disabilities. 15 Replacement of data-dysfunctional boiler 16 systems and roofs with compromised integrity. 17 Purchase of backup generator systems 18 necessary to maintain services during crises, such 19 as "Hurricane Sandy." 20 Upgrade of kitchens with 21 commercial-grade-quality and -capacity appliances to 22 enhance food preparation and storage capacity. 23 Purchase of new furnishings to help establish 24 a welcoming service-delivery environment. 25 Replacement of dated desktop computers, 1 laptops, servers, mobile devices, and other 2 electronic technology necessary to maintain agency 3 and program operations. 4 And, finally, purchase of software and 5 phone-system upgrades, and purchase of necessary 6 licenses. 7 Some of these things actually are mandated by 8 state or city regulations. 9 So the next issue that I wanted to highlight 10 is indirect costs, which are commonly referred to as 11 "overhead." 12 There is a pervasive stigma against indirect 13 costs. 14 Nobody wants to fund a chair or a desk or a 15 training. 16 People want to fund a meal for a hungry 17 child. They want to fund a wheelchair for a 18 disabled person. 19 Indirect costs just don't have appeal, but, 20 they are a fact of life. Just like any for-profit 21 organization, nonprofit organizations have 22 legitimate indirect costs. 23 As you probably are aware, the Federal Office 24 of Management and Budget, or, "OMB," recently 25 issued -- well, in 2013, issued regulations 1 regarding indirect costs on federal contracts 2 between pass-through entities, such as state and 3 local governments and nonprofit organizations. 4 And I want to be clear that, in the federal 5 guidance, there is a 10 percent floor for indirect 6 costs. And the federal government calls this floor 7 "de minimis." 8 I think we should take a second to think 9 about the term "de minimis," because if the federal 10 government is telling us that 10 percent is 11 de minimis, and our members are getting indirect 12 cost rates ranging from 2.3 or 2.5 percent to their 13 federal rates, which can be in excess of 15 percent, 14 the fact that the federal government is telling us 15 that 10 percent is so small as to be called 16 "de minimis" should tell us something about the way 17 our services are funded. 18 I also would like to point out that HSC is 19 not sure at this point how New York State and 20 New York City intends to implement this guidance. 21 They are required to follow the guidance for 22 all of their federal contracts, but we haven't 23 received any written communication as to how they 24 will be implementing it. And that's, obviously, a 25 problem for our members. 1 So in the interest of keeping my remarks 2 short, I will just conclude by saying: 3 That nonprofit organizations obviously play 4 an important role in alleviating poverty, but they 5 need funding and adequate support in order to 6 continue to thrive. 7 And, actually, I think "thrive" is probably 8 the wrong word at this point. 9 They need to recover from the effects of the 10 financial crisis, and then thrive, and be able to 11 deliver high-quality services, while also looking 12 for out for their own, and treating their staff in a 13 way that makes them want to stay in their jobs. 14 Thank you. 15 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Great. Thank you very 16 much. I really appreciate it. 17 One of the things I wanted to just mention to 18 you and see if you had any feedback, is when you 19 talk about the cost-of-living adjustment for 20 human-service workers, one of the things that we 21 have tried to do when I served as Chairman of the 22 Mental Health Committee, is to create a 23 credentialing process for direct-service providers, 24 because some of the things that you had talked 25 about, we know there's a direct link. 1 Right, if you're seeing a new caseworker each 2 time you go, that has a diminishing effect on the 3 quality of service. 4 And what we're looking to do through the 5 credentialing process is to reward experience; to 6 get people that have invested in themselves, in 7 their career, and to get paid an adequate wage, and 8 something that will encourage them to expand their 9 profession. 10 Is there something like that that we could 11 put into effect in the human-service field? 12 TRACIE ROBINSON: Absolutely. 13 And I think this ties in a little -- 14 actually, quite a bit, to what one of our partner 15 organizations has been doing a lot of work on, 16 The Federation of Protestant Welfare Agencies, or, 17 "FPWA." 18 They have something called a "career-ladder 19 initiative," and that's something that they're 20 really working on at the New York City level. 21 But I think there's an opportunity to create 22 something parallel at the state level. 23 And basically what the career-ladder 24 initiative is about, is just what you said: 25 rewarding investment in professional development. 1 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Now, when you mentioned, 2 you said 20 percent of New York's workforce is 3 comprised of the human-service field -- 4 TRACIE ROBINSON: Almost. 5 I think it's 18. 6 SENATOR CARLUCCI: -- now, would that include 7 the people working with people with developmental 8 disabilities and mental health? 9 TRACIE ROBINSON: (Nods head.) 10 SENATOR CARLUCCI: So it includes that? 11 TRACIE ROBINSON: Yes. 12 SENATOR CARLUCCI: And health care? 13 TRACIE ROBINSON: Yes. 14 SENATOR CARLUCCI: It includes that? 15 TRACIE ROBINSON: Yes. 16 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Great. 17 TRACIE ROBINSON: And so it is -- like 18 I said, it's not just a matter of supporting a 19 safety net. It's also a matter of contributing to 20 something that really is an economic engine. 21 I know I'm beating a dead horse, but, I just 22 really want to highlight that. 23 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Great. 24 All right. Good. 25 Any other recommendations that you have for 1 us? 2 TRACIE ROBINSON: We're actually working on 3 our recommendations. We had -- we actually had 4 specific numbers in terms of funding 5 recommendations, so on and so forth. 6 But, we will be revising them over the coming 7 month or two, and so I will refrain from giving any 8 specific numbers today. 9 SENATOR CARLUCCI: I agree. 10 TRACIE ROBINSON: But you will definitely be 11 hearing from us -- 12 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Excellent. Look forward 13 to it. 14 TRACIE ROBINSON: -- in the next month or so. 15 Thank you. 16 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Well, Tracie Robinson, 17 really appreciate it, and I look forward to working 18 with you. 19 TRACIE ROBINSON: Thank you, and, likewise. 20 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Our next speaker is 21 Carmelita Cruz, who is the director of the New York 22 State advocacy & organizing, Housing Works. 23 We're just going to take a quick, less than 24 five-minute break. 25 (Recess taken.) 1 (The hearing resumes.) 2 SENATOR CARLUCCI: So our next speaker, we 3 have Carmelita Cruz, the director of New York State 4 advocacy & organizing, Housing Works. 5 CARMELITA CRUZ: Great. Thank you so much. 6 And thank you for calling this hearing, and 7 we at Housing Works really welcome your attention to 8 identifying gaps in the delivery of social services. 9 So I want to take this opportunity to 10 identify gaps in social services for low-income 11 people living with HIV, and I provided you some 12 materials. 13 I know that folder is very thick. I promise 14 it's not all my written testimony. 15 It's also a copy of "New York State's 16 Blueprint to End the AIDS Epidemic." 17 So, first, low-income people -- low-income 18 HIV-positive people in Upstate New York and 19 Long Island don't currently have a coordinated way 20 of accessing essential services and housing 21 supports. 22 Second, New York City and state eligibility 23 requirements for receiving housing and critical 24 supports are out of date and don't conform with 25 current HIV-treatment guidelines and research that 1 overwhelmingly support the benefits of early 2 treatment. 3 The current criteria is based on an "AIDS" 4 definition which came into play in the '80s. And, 5 you know, everyone knows that, with the advances in 6 medicine, AIDS is no longer a death sentence. 7 So we encourage changing that definition so 8 that it's -- when someone becomes HIV-positive, 9 rather than waiting until their disease progresses 10 to AIDS. 11 And then, third, low-income HIV-positive 12 New Yorkers who reside outside of New York City 13 aren't currently eligible for the 30 percent rent 14 cap affordable-housing protection. 15 And as we've heard from some of the speakers 16 earlier, like we've heard from people all over 17 Upstate New York and Long Island, affordable housing 18 is an issue all over the state, not just within 19 New York City. 20 So this hearing is really being convened at 21 an exciting time. 22 Governor Cuomo's commitment to ending the 23 AIDS epidemic in New York State by the year 2020 is 24 actually extraordinary. 25 If we can accomplish this, we would be the 1 first state in the country, and the first 2 jurisdiction in the world, to do something like 3 this. 4 And what that means is, basically, lowering 5 the number of new HIV infections we have in the 6 state each year, from about 3200 last year, to 7 750 by the year 2020. 8 So, it's a big goal, there isn't a cure, but 9 there are steps that we can take, such as linking 10 and retaining people in care and providing housing, 11 transportation, and nutrition assistance, which is 12 what I'm going to focus on now, for people across 13 New York State. 14 So in the blueprint, which I've provided for 15 you, housing is named as the greatest unmet need of 16 people at risk or living with HIV in the state. 17 Research shows that there are still 18 significant barriers to staying on treatment for 19 people with HIV who are homeless or unstably housed. 20 If people don't have a safe place to live or 21 enough food to eat or transportation to even get to 22 their doctors' appointments, they're often unable to 23 stay within care and stay healthy. 24 The research is clear that people with HIV 25 who are homeless and unstably housed have higher 1 viral loads, worst health, are more likely to pass 2 the virus on to someone else, and die sooner. 3 Housing is a really strong predictor of HIV 4 health outcomes, more so than individual 5 characteristics such as gender, race, age, drug and 6 alcohol use, mental-health issues, or even receipt 7 of social services. 8 So it's really essential to support meeting 9 these basic subsistence needs. It's just as 10 important as providing medications for people living 11 with HIV. 12 So one of the reasons that New York State is 13 in a position to end the AIDS epidemic is because 14 we've done such a great job with consistently 15 reducing the number of new HIV infections over the 16 course of our history. 17 We have great syringe-exchange programs which 18 have reduced transmitting HIV through the use of 19 injection-drug use, through sharing needles, by 20 90 percent since the epidemic was at its highest 21 rate. 22 It's also partially due to the HIV and AIDS 23 services administrations and the benefits that are 24 provided within New York City, that aren't available 25 to folks within the rest of the state at this time. 1 So outside of New York City, basic housing, 2 nutrition, and transportation benefits have not been 3 made available to low-income New Yorkers living with 4 HIV and AIDS, and it's estimated that there are, 5 roughly, four to six thousand people with HIV living 6 in Upstate New York and Long Island that have an 7 unmet housing need. And this is actually based on a 8 2004 housing-needs assessment, so it's outdated. 9 We're trying to work on updating those 10 numbers, so there's a chance that that number is 11 even higher. 12 It's essential -- 13 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Is that something that 14 Housing Works is doing? Or -- 15 CARMELITA CRUZ: Yes. 16 So the initial needs assessment, one of our 17 founders, who is now our senior policy associate, 18 Jenny Schubert, was involved. 19 It was also, I think, funded through the 20 Office of Temporary Disability Assistance. 21 So, we're working with OTDA to try and get a 22 new housing-needs assessment done. 23 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Ten years later. 24 CARMELITA CRUZ: Yes, yes, more than 10 years 25 later. 1 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Yeah. 2 CARMELITA CRUZ: So all of these services 3 that I've talked about are actually provided in a 4 bill that Senator Hoylman introduced earlier this 5 session, in May, called "The Point of Access to 6 Housing and Essential Services," which would, 7 basically, amend the social-services law to ensure 8 coordinated access to benefits for low-income people 9 living with HIV through a single point of access in 10 every local social-service district across the 11 state. 12 And what we've heard from some providers 13 already is that larger -- counties with a larger 14 population of people living with HIV, it would be 15 easier to provide this through their local 16 social-service district. 17 But, in some of the more rural areas in 18 Upstate New York, it would be something that would 19 be easier to contract out to AIDS service 20 organizations. 21 So that language is already provided in the 22 bill. 23 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Now, this document here, 24 "Ending the Epidemic," is that -- 25 CARMELITA CRUZ: That's all of our 1 legislative recommendations. 2 SENATOR CARLUCCI: That's yours? Okay. 3 Is the bill you just mentioned in here? 4 CARMELITA CRUZ: Yes. 5 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. 6 CARMELITA CRUZ: It would also protect 7 rent-burdened people living with HIV and their 8 families by expanding the 30 percent rent cap 9 statewide. 10 It would also change the eligibility 11 requirements. 12 So like I mentioned earlier, eligibility 13 requirements right now are based on someone having 14 an AIDS diagnosis. 15 But we know from research that folks, as soon 16 as they test positive, should be receiving 17 medication, should be stably housed, so that they 18 stay healthier. 19 SENATOR CARLUCCI: And this is all within the 20 single-point-access bill? 21 CARMELITA CRUZ: Yes, yes. 22 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Okay. 23 CARMELITA CRUZ: And then it would also 24 provide access to additional transportation stipends 25 and reimbursements, which are really essential for 1 people in more rural communities that don't have an 2 extensive public transportation system or that have 3 to drive a long way to access their care. 4 So the bill would really streamline the 5 supportive services, and it would enable continuous 6 engagement in care, which is one of the main pillars 7 of the blueprint in how we'll end the epidemic in 8 New York. 9 So I also include, and I just want to bring 10 to your attention, a fiscal-impact report, which was 11 actually conducted by Housing Works and the 12 Treatment Action Group. 13 And the fiscal-impact report shows that a net 14 savings of at least $1 billion in public spending 15 between now and 2020 could be saved by updating the 16 eligibility criteria, and funding safe and stable 17 affordable housing, and that's basically calculated 18 by averting new infections. 19 I think maybe 70 percent of the people living 20 with HIV in New York State utilize public-insurance 21 benefits, so it really brings that Medicaid cost 22 down. 23 And then also by providing those savings -- 24 those housing benefits, we would be limiting the 25 number of people in the shelter system currently. 1 So like it was mentioned earlier, there are 2 over 60,000 people that utilize the shelter system 3 each year in New York City. 4 We're trying to get some of that data on a 5 county-by-county level now as well, so that we can 6 kind of go through and figure out which of those 7 folks are also HIV-positive and that could be 8 receiving stable housing. 9 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Great. 10 Okay. 11 CARMELITA CRUZ: So that was the main thing 12 that I wanted to bring up. 13 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Great. 14 Well, thank you very much. This is very 15 helpful. I really appreciate it. 16 I look forward to working with you as we 17 continue this agenda to have a real strategic plan, 18 moving into the next legislative session. 19 So this is extremely helpful. 20 CARMELITA CRUZ: Okay. Great. 21 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Thank you so much. 22 CARMELITA CRUZ: Thank you. 23 SENATOR CARLUCCI: And our next speaker, we 24 have Alex Bursztein? 25 Is Alex still here? 1 No? 2 You're filling in? 3 Okay. Great. 4 From Legal Aid Society of Rockland County. 5 If you could just say your name and title. 6 MARY ELLEN NATALE: Good afternoon, Senator. 7 I'm Mary Ellen Natale. I'm the deputy 8 director of the Legal Aid Society of 9 Rockland County, and I'm here in place of 10 Alexander Bursztein, our executive director, who is, 11 as we speak, in court, working very hard to try to 12 prevent the eviction of a low-income family who 13 desperately needs shelter in Rockland County. 14 SENATOR CARLUCCI: I know he was here 15 earlier, so... 16 MARY ELLEN NATALE: He was. He had to go to 17 court for a trial this afternoon. 18 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Yeah, well, we wish him 19 luck. 20 MARY ELLEN NATALE: Thank you, Senator. 21 And thank you so much for convening these 22 hearings, and for inviting us to participate. We're 23 very grateful to be here. 24 I'll keep my remarks brief. 25 We have written testimony, and, basically, 1 I want to echo what you've heard today from all of 2 our partners in the social-services community who 3 are hearing every day from people in need, and who 4 are seeing the results of the gaps in our 5 social-services delivery system. 6 I know that you know our advocate 7 Mary Wallace, who's been working tirelessly on 8 public-benefits issues for years. 9 I'm not our welfare expert in the office. 10 What I do is housing work, and I see every 11 day the impact of the inadequate shelter allowance 12 on our client community. 13 We have the Rockland numbers here. 14 You've heard testimony about how inadequate 15 the shelter allowance is. 16 In Rockland County, for a single-person 17 household, the shelter allowance is $302. 18 $302. 19 There is nowhere a person can live in 20 Rockland County with a shelter allowance of $300 a 21 month. 22 Compare that to the fair-market rent of 23 1,196, that's almost four times the shelter 24 allowance. 25 For a family of four, the Rockland County 1 shelter allowance is $488. 2 Again, a family of four, in Rockland County, 3 there's nowhere they can live for less than $500 a 4 month. Or even at the fair-market rent, for a 5 family of four, or for a two-bedroom apartment, for 6 $1,481. 7 Again, more than three times. 8 There simply is nowhere people can live on 9 the shelter allowance. 10 As you're very aware, Senator, there's an 11 inadequate supply of subsidized housing in 12 Rockland County. 13 People wait for years, literally, years, for 14 the opportunity to live somewhere affordable in 15 Rockland. 16 The shelter allowance is simply inadequate. 17 We see the results every day. 18 Our caseload and the economic crisis has made 19 it even worse for our client community. 20 Our caseloads increased by 50 percent in the 21 5-year period, between 2004 and 2008, compared to 22 2009 to '13, in those recent years, our caseload 23 increased 50 percent in the landlord-tenant arena. 24 And that means for us, we were handling -- 25 or, we had almost 2,400 new landlord-tenant cases, 1 mainly people who are facing eviction in 2 Rockland County in that last 2009-to-2013 period. 3 So where do they go? 4 If they are receiving the shelter allowance 5 and they're a resident of Rockland County, if 6 they're on public assistance, they can't rent an 7 apartment, they can't afford it. 8 A whole family will be living in a room; in a 9 room of a subdivided illegal apartment, sometimes 10 with conditions that are so horrendous. 11 We see that they have no water. We see no 12 electricity, no gas, no heat. We see infestations 13 of all sorts of horrible vermin. 14 And we see people who are so afraid to 15 complain, because they know if the place they're 16 living is shut down, they don't have any options. 17 And these are not people who aren't working. 18 These are people who are between jobs, who 19 are trying to work, who may have been injured, like 20 a couple that recently came to our office, both 21 parties needed surgery and were out of work. 22 Hopefully, their surgeries will be successful 23 and they'll be back at work soon. And if not, 24 hopefully, they'll be eligible for disability 25 benefits, many months, or even years, down the road. 1 And in the meantime, in the meantime, they 2 have to live on the shelter allowance, and there's 3 nowhere for them to go. 4 Our recommendation is simple. 5 We echo what you've heard today from people 6 who see this problem every day, who work with people 7 who are struggling. 8 We need to increase the shelter allowance. 9 We would echo the recommendation to start, by 10 increasing it to 50 percent of the fair-market rent, 11 as a start, as a start, at least to give people a 12 fighting chance of having somewhere decent they can 13 live while they try to make a life for themselves 14 and their families here in Rockland. 15 Thank you very much for giving us the 16 opportunity to testify today. 17 SENATOR CARLUCCI: You're very welcome. 18 Mary Ellen Natale, thank you so much for 19 this. 20 And I know we've worked in the past on 21 suggestions, and please keep them coming, and look 22 forward to working with you as we progress in this 23 process. 24 So it was extremely helpful. 25 MARY ELLEN NATALE: Thank you very much, 1 Senator. 2 SENATOR CARLUCCI: Do we have any other 3 speakers that wanted to speak today? 4 Well, I really want to thank everyone for 5 spending the time with us here today. 6 This has really been a real goldmine of 7 ideas, and it's so important that we continue to 8 work together. 9 And my goal from having these hearings will 10 be to really identify a priority list; a priority 11 list of legislation that we can work together on. 12 And I was talking to a few people testifying 13 earlier, and saying that it would be great if we can 14 lay this out before we move into session, so we're 15 not turning around in March and April and June and 16 saying, Hey, do you like this bill? What's good 17 about it? What's bad about it? 18 Let's work those tweaks out before we even 19 step into the legislative session. 20 Let's prioritize around these, and we as a 21 community that's caring about these issues, we can 22 really make a dramatic difference. 23 I like to say, you know, we talk about how: 24 If I give you a dollar, you give me a dollar, we 25 each have a dollar. But, if you give me an idea and 1 I give you an idea, we have two ideas. Right? 2 And that's what we can build upon. 3 So, I've heard so many great -- so many 4 problems, but also so many great recommendations; 5 and who better to come from than the people working 6 on the front lines. 7 So, I really do appreciate your time, and 8 also the commitment that you have to serving some of 9 our most vulnerable population. 10 So thank you for the work that you're doing, 11 and many times, with little resources. You're truly 12 making difference in our state. 13 So, I want to thank you, and look forward to 14 continuing to have the dialogue. And please do 15 consider me as a partner in this way, that we're 16 going to help people in New York State. 17 So thank you for coming. 18 This hearing on the Committee of 19 Social Services for the New York State Senate is 20 adjourned. 21 Thank you. 22 (Whereupon, at approximately 1:51 p.m., 23 the public hearing held before the New York State 24 Senate Standing Committee on Social Services 25 concluded, and adjourned.)