1
1 BEFORE THE NEW YORK STATE SENATE FINANCE
AND ASSEMBLY WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEES
2 ----------------------------------------------------
3 JOINT LEGISLATIVE HEARING
4 In the Matter of the
2020-2021 EXECUTIVE BUDGET ON
5 HIGHER EDUCATION
6 ----------------------------------------------------
7 Hearing Room B
Legislative Office Building
8 Albany, New York
9 February 2, 2020
9:35 a.m.
10
11 PRESIDING:
12 Senator Liz Krueger
Chair, Senate Finance Committee
13
Assemblywoman Helene Weinstein
14 Chair, Assembly Ways & Means Committee
15 PRESENT:
16 Senator James L. Seward
Senate Finance Committee (RM)
17
Assemblyman Edward P. Ra
18 Assembly Ways & Means Committee (RM)
19 Assemblywoman Deborah J. Glick
Chair, Assembly Higher Education Committee
20
Senator Toby Stavisky
21 Chair, Senate Higher Education Committee
22 Senator John C. Liu
23 Assemblywoman Barbara S. Lifton
24 Assemblywoman Karen McMahon
2
1 2020-2021 Executive Budget
Higher Education
2 2-4-20
3 PRESENT: (Continued)
4 Assemblywoman Jo Anne Simon
5 Senator Kenneth P. LaValle
6 Assemblywoman Patricia Fahy
7 Assemblywoman Rebecca A. Seawright
8 Senator Anna Kaplan
9 Assemblyman Al Stirpe
10 Assemblywoman Alicia Hyndman
11 Senator Rachel May
12 Assemblyman Harvey Epstein
13 Assemblyman Doug Smith
14 Senator Andrew Gounardes
15 Assemblyman Charles D. Fall
16 Senator James Gaughran
17 Assemblywoman Rodneyse Bichotte
18 Assemblyman John T. McDonald III
19 Assemblywoman Marianne Buttenschon
20 Senator Brad Hoylman
21 Assemblyman Jake Ashby
22 Assemblywoman Judy Griffin
23 Assemblyman Victor M. Pichardo
24 Senator Robert Jackson
3
1 2020-2021 Executive Budget
Higher Education
2 2-4-20
3 PRESENT: (Continued)
4 Assemblyman William Colton
5
6
7 LIST OF SPEAKERS
8 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
9 Kristina M. Johnson
Chancellor 9 20
10
Felix V. Matos Rodriguez
11 Chancellor
City University of New York 155 165
12
Shannon Tahoe
13 Interim Commissioner
NYS Education Department 252 262
14
Dr. Guillermo Linares
15 President
Elsa Magee
16 Executive Vice President
NYS Higher Education
17 Services Corporation 312 316
18 Andrew Pallotta
President
19 New York State United Teachers
-and-
20 Frederick Kowal
President
21 United University Professions
-and-
22 Barbara Bowen
President
23 Professional Staff Congress 357 372
24
4
1 2020-2021 Executive Budget
Higher Education
2 2-4-20
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont.
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Santana Alvarado
Chairperson, Student
6 Board of Directors
Wali Ullah
7 Policy Associate
Blair Horner
8 Executive Director
NYPIRG 396 402
9
Juvanie Piquant
10 Vice Chair, Legislative Affairs
Nicole Agu
11 Vice Chair, International
Student Affairs
12 Timothy Hunter
Chairperson
13 CUNY University Student Senate 410 417
14 Austin Ostro
President
15 Brad Hershenson
Director, Legislative Affairs
16 Bryce Mac
Treasurer
17 SUNY Student Assembly
-and-
18 Takeena Strachan
Student Association President
19 SUNY Oswego 437 449
20 Mary Beth Labate
President
21 Commission on Independent
Colleges and Universities
22 (CICU) 451 458
23
24
5
1 2020-2021 Executive Budget
Higher Education
2 2-4-20
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont.
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Donna Stelling-Gurnett
President
6 Association of Proprietary
Colleges (APC)
7 -and-
Christopher Barto
8 VP, Government Relations
LIM College 465 471
9
Samuel Rowser
10 Executive Director
Kevin Marken
11 Utica Director
On Point for College 473
12
Ivelisse Gilestra
13 Community Organizer
College & Community
14 Fellowship 479
15 Diana E. Cruz
Director of Education
16 Policy
Hispanic Federation 484
17
Ryan Law
18 University Police Officers
Director
19 PBA President
Police Benevolent Association
20 of New York State 490 497
21 Mac-Olivier Lalanne
Student
22 SUNY Plattsburgh 500 505
23
24
6
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: If people could
2 take their seats.
3 Good morning. I am Helene Weinstein,
4 chair of the New York State Assembly Ways and
5 Means Committee and cochair of today's
6 hearing.
7 Today we begin the sixth in a series
8 of hearings conducted by the joint fiscal
9 committees of the Legislature regarding the
10 Governor's proposed budget for fiscal year
11 2020-2021. The hearings are conducted
12 pursuant to the New York State
13 Constitution and the Legislative Law.
14 Today the Assembly Ways and Means
15 Committee and the Senate Finance Committee
16 will hear testimony concerning the Governor's
17 budget proposal for higher education.
18 I'll introduce members of the Assembly
19 majority, and Senator Krueger, chair of
20 Senate Finance, will introduce members from
21 the Senate.
22 So we have with us our chair of the
23 Higher Education Committee, Deborah Glick;
24 Assemblyman Pichardo, Assemblyman Epstein,
7
1 Assemblyman Stirpe, and Assemblywoman Fahy.
2 Senator Krueger?
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Good morning.
4 Thank you, everyone.
5 I'm joined by the chair of Higher Ed,
6 Toby Stavisky; the ranker on Higher Ed,
7 John {sic} LaValle; the ranker on Finance,
8 Jim Seward; Senator Andrew Gounardes; and
9 Senator Anna Kaplan. And I know I saw
10 Senator Liu, but I think he's disappeared and
11 will come back.
12 Thank you. Oh, I'm sorry, Ken
13 LaValle, how -- excuse me, Ken.
14 SENATOR LaVALLE: That's all right.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Nobody will
16 forget, Senator.
17 So before introducing the first
18 witness, a couple of ground rules for all of
19 the hearings that we've gone through at the
20 beginning. We have these countdown clocks,
21 both for the witnesses and for the members to
22 pay attention to. There will be a green
23 light when your time starts. When there's
24 one minute left, the light turns -- as the
8
1 clock goes down to one minute, the light
2 turns yellow. And when it's red, it means
3 thank you and goodbye.
4 (Laughter.)
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: No. But you
6 can always finish your last sentence, please.
7 And witnesses, particularly those
8 nongovernmental witnesses, are reminded that
9 we do have your testimony, which was
10 submitted electronically in advance, it's
11 been circulated to all the members. So we
12 encourage you to not read your testimony, but
13 summarize.
14 A lot of people think they can get
15 through several pages in five minutes. We're
16 here to tell you you can't. And if you have
17 your important point at the end of your
18 testimony, you'll never get to it. So make
19 sure to highlight your important parts.
20 And to the members, just timing,
21 chairs of the relevant committee have
22 10 minutes. They are the only ones allowed a
23 follow-up of five minutes after everyone has
24 gone. All other members have five minutes.
9
1 And when we get to the nongovernmental
2 witnesses, the members have three minutes.
3 And the time is for both questions and
4 answers.
5 So now I'll introduce our ranker,
6 Assemblyman Ra, to introduce his Republican
7 colleagues.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
9 We're joined this morning by
10 Assemblyman Doug Smith, our ranking member on
11 the Higher Education Committee, and
12 Assemblyman Jake Ashby.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So with that,
14 we are anxious to begin our hearing. And our
15 first witness, Kristina Johnson, chancellor,
16 State University of New York. Please.
17 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Thank you.
18 Good morning. It's a pleasure to be
19 here. And I'd like to start off by saying
20 that I will keep to the time.
21 And I'd also like to thank you for all
22 your support that you've provided, both the
23 Governor and the Legislature. I really feel
24 SUNY has tremendous momentum. And so what
10
1 I'd like to do today is, for the record, I am
2 Kristina Johnson, the 13th chancellor of the
3 State University of New York. And I'd like
4 to personally thank Chairpersons Krueger,
5 Weinstein, Stavisky and Glick, members of the
6 Senate and Assembly and legislative staff,
7 for the opportunity to share with you our
8 perspective on Governor Cuomo's proposed
9 Executive Budget, the progress we've made
10 since last year's hearing, and our plans for
11 the future.
12 I'd also like to acknowledge and thank
13 Chairman of the Board Dr. Meryl Tisch and our
14 entire Board of Trustees for their leadership
15 and support, and particularly our student
16 trustee -- who's president of the Student
17 Assembly of the 1.4 million students in the
18 State University of New York -- and that is
19 Austin Ostro, who is here today as well; my
20 leadership team, who is seated behind me; and
21 of course all of the people that keep our
22 system moving forward -- the students, the
23 faculty, staff and our leadership teams
24 across the system.
11
1 Last fall I had the pleasure of
2 finalizing visits to every single one of the
3 SUNY institutions, all 64, and really got a
4 chance to see the size, the scope, the
5 breadth and the diversity of the quality that
6 goes into the 30 community colleges, the
7 29 state-operated colleges, the five
8 statutory, the law school, the medical
9 schools, the hospitals -- even the national
10 laboratory.
11 We are involved in all kinds of
12 activities, ranging from scholarship research
13 to workforce development, carrying out the
14 Governor's robust initiative. We deliver
15 320,000 non-credit-bearing courses to our
16 community college students. That's in
17 addition to the couple of hundred thousand
18 community college students that are enrolled,
19 and the couple of hundred thousand enrolled
20 in our four-year institutions as well.
21 Now, I'm an engineer by training, so
22 for me it comes down to data. And what I'd
23 like to do is try and put a few words with
24 some of those numbers to show you some of the
12
1 progress we've made and the impact that we're
2 having on the State of New York.
3 So the first thing is social mobility.
4 Almost a third of our students have TAP or an
5 Excelsior scholarship. Think about that. A
6 third of our students, more than half go
7 tuition-free. And that's measured by a
8 social mobility index where 18 out of 29 of
9 our state-operated campuses rank in the top
10 10 percent nationally for taking large
11 numbers of low-income students and graduating
12 them into high-paying jobs.
13 In fact, on PayScale's recent index,
14 Maritime College ranked 11th in the entire
15 country, including all the Ivys, for the kind
16 of careers that those students get right out
17 of college and then again their salaries at
18 mid-career. So SUNY is certainly a gem in
19 the constellation of the State of New York.
20 SUNY is known for the quality of
21 education we provide and of course the sheer
22 size of the largest comprehensive system of
23 higher education in the country. And it is a
24 game-changer for New York's economy. When
13
1 you think about it, almost a third --
2 actually, a little more than a third of every
3 college-educated individual in the State of
4 New York has a SUNY degree.
5 This year we received 371,000
6 applications, and we have roughly 3 million
7 alums. And three out of four of our alums,
8 within three to five years of their
9 graduation, are still working and
10 contributing to the State of New York.
11 SUNY hospitals are the heartbeat of
12 the local healthcare in the underserved
13 communities they call home. They're also the
14 economic engines of Brooklyn, Central
15 New York, Long Island, Buffalo -- including
16 the hospital of Buffalo, of course.
17 Each SUNY hospital serves higher
18 percentages of people covered by Medicaid and
19 Medicare than the general population seen at
20 other hospitals. Collectively they serve
21 1.2 million individual patients and 2 million
22 visits a year. They contribute $6 billion to
23 their local economy. And in fact, Downstate
24 Health Sciences University -- we just changed
14
1 the name from Downstate Medical Center to
2 Downstate Health Sciences University --
3 they're number two in START-UP NY, with
4 24 spin-off companies in the Governor's
5 START-UP NY program.
6 So yes, we do serve those that don't
7 have another option for healthcare. We're
8 also driving the local economy in these
9 communities.
10 Our community colleges are critically
11 important to providing the State of New York
12 an educated workforce for our dynamic
13 economy. For many, it's the first stop to
14 realizing their dreams and aspirations for
15 social mobility. We look forward to working
16 with the Governor and the Legislature
17 throughout this budget process to restore the
18 community college funding floor that you
19 included in last year's budget, and I thank
20 you for that.
21 SUNY's Educational Opportunity
22 Programs are life-changing as well. I didn't
23 realize this, but the Educational Opportunity
24 Programs, the average income of the families
15
1 these students come from is $21,000. At our
2 Educational Opportunity Centers, the average
3 income for those students that come from
4 families making less than $15,000 a year. If
5 you want to talk about how you get into the
6 middle class in this country, you do it
7 through SUNY. And we're doing it through our
8 EOCs, our EOPs, our community colleges, our
9 tech sector, our comprehensives and our
10 doctoral institutions. So I'm so proud of
11 it.
12 Today we've got 10,274 students within
13 48 campus-based programs in our EOP programs.
14 And we've had about 75,000 students over the
15 52- or 53-year horizon of the EOP program.
16 And this last fall, we started the Norman
17 McConney Award for outstanding EOP students.
18 And I want to tell you about one of these
19 students. This is a student that's at
20 Dutchess Community College -- I will not
21 mention the name -- but she is a mother of
22 five, with students with special needs, and
23 she had a 4.0 full-time community college
24 grade point average. I never had a 4.0 grade
16
1 point average. This is stunning.
2 But those are the kind of students
3 that EOP attracts. I couldn't be prouder of
4 her and every one of those 42 students that
5 we honored. And the Speaker also was there
6 to recognize them.
7 Results from two years of the
8 Excelsior Scholarship Program. I want to say
9 that enrollments are increased 20 percent.
10 We had 20,000 SUNY and CUNY students in the
11 first year and increased to 24,000.
12 Let's look at the results. Our
13 community college first-year retention rates
14 went up 20 percent. And they're also up in
15 our state-operated. That means the program
16 is working as designed, which is to get more
17 students out faster with less debt. And they
18 do have less debt. We're excited about
19 increasing the cap on family income
20 eligibility to 150,000.
21 So I said I'd talk about some of our
22 results from last year. With your support of
23 our Open Educational Resources, since the
24 fall of 2017 we have reduced textbook costs
17
1 to our students a cumulative $47 million. As
2 a result of the Provost Innovation Fund, we
3 have re-enrolled 8,000 students who dropped
4 out before their loans became due. So they
5 have the best opportunity to repay those
6 loans because they will have a degree which
7 will garner them a higher wage.
8 And with rising rates of anxiety,
9 depression and suicide among our young adults
10 nationwide, we launched the SUNY Mental
11 Health and Wellness Task Force this last
12 fall, chaired by two of our presidents,
13 Dr. Wayne Riley of Downstate and Dr. Deborah
14 Stanley at Oswego.
15 I know you know this; we did
16 establish, under Governor Cuomo's leadership,
17 a Food Insecurity Task Force in 2018 which
18 resulted in, over the last year, having
19 students having access to food pantries who
20 are food-insecure at every single one of our
21 campuses.
22 In all, about 150,000 students are
23 impacted by one of our SUNY Achieve programs,
24 which is to get students into credit-bearing
18
1 courses faster. And that's our corequisite
2 model. We've been able to get students to
3 pass basic math and English, a barrier to
4 completion, in half the time -- twice as
5 fast.
6 And speaking of half the time and
7 twice as fast, I have a minute 23 seconds
8 left, so I'm going to skip to just a couple
9 of quick accomplishments.
10 One of the pillars of my
11 chancellorship is not only individualized
12 education, which is our SUNY Achieve,
13 SUNY Online -- which I can talk about in a
14 minute -- it's research and innovation. This
15 last year SUNY, partnering with Empire State
16 Development, brought $5 billion to the State
17 of New York, working in partnership with IBM,
18 Applied Materials and Cree. We've increased
19 our research expenditures $136 million. We
20 will reach, we believe, in 2019 more than
21 $1.7 billion. I set a goal, when I first
22 became chancellor two and a half years ago,
23 of reaching $2 billion.
24 And then with 42 seconds left, just
19
1 let me conclude that we're excited about the
2 SUNY Global Cannabis Center in the Governor's
3 budget. We are excited about the Education
4 Opportunity Programs, the EOCs and the
5 Attains.
6 And we ask that you consider restoring
7 the community college funding floor,
8 restoring the childcare at community
9 colleges, our Mental Health Tele-Counseling,
10 the Small Business Development Centers work,
11 our graduate diversity fellowships, and
12 support for all our graduate students, the
13 Hispanic Leadership Institute, and continue
14 support for our hospitals.
15 I would like to thank you for inviting
16 me here to testify, and with that I will
17 conclude.
18 (Timeclock chiming.)
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Perfect.
20 (Laughter.)
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Let that be a
22 lesson to all here.
23 We've been joined by Assemblywoman
24 Seawright.
20
1 And we go to our Higher Education
2 chair, Deborah Glick, for some questions.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We've also been
4 joined by Robert Jackson in the Senate.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you very
6 much.
7 Chancellor, appreciate your testimony.
8 The budget -- the Executive Budget
9 calls for regular annual increases in
10 tuition, authorizing regular annual increases
11 of $200 per year through the year of
12 2024-2025.
13 If we agree to that, what does the
14 final tuition wind up being? And with that
15 escalation, what would be the impact on the
16 TAP gap that the university is already
17 struggling with? As we increase tuition, we
18 increase the TAP gap. And so that seems like
19 it is almost ice in winter.
20 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Thank you very
21 much for your question.
22 So an increase of $200 per year for
23 the next four years would be $800, on top --
24 at our state-operated institutions, the
21
1 tuition right now is $7070, so that would be
2 $7870.
3 The TAP gap right now is $1905. So
4 adding 800 to that, that would be 2700 for
5 the TAP gap. Right now the cumulative TAP
6 gap -- we have about 100,000 students
7 getting -- mostly full-time students getting
8 TAP support. It's about 82 million. So this
9 would increase -- that's the TAP gap, the gap
10 between what our campuses need to educate a
11 student and what the tuition pays.
12 So it would be, just bottom line,
13 $2700. It would increase the TAP gap unless
14 we got some sort of relief.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: I'm sorry, what
16 was that?
17 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Unless we got
18 some sort of relief, it would be $2705.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: And you already
20 have some built-up TAP gap on the books.
21 What is that at the --
22 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: That's $1905 at
23 the state-operated. I want to be clear, at
24 the state-operated, where the tuition is 7070
22
1 and the TAP support is 5165. So the
2 difference is every student on TAP has a gap
3 that the campuses need to pay.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: We know what
5 that is, it would be -- rather than by
6 student, what is the current burden?
7 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Eighty-two
8 million.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Eighty-two
10 million, thank you.
11 And you indicated that you have 10,294
12 EOP students.
13 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Right.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Those students
15 come from families with an average of $21,000
16 in family income. How many applications do
17 you get for those spots that you obviously
18 don't have room for?
19 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Right. So we get
20 12,000 applications a year, and we have room
21 for 4,000 students.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Okay. Now, the
23 Governor is proposing to expand Excelsior,
24 which is viewed as a completion program. I
23
1 think TAP is viewed as a completion program
2 too, since it's only available for eight
3 semesters. From my perspective, it's a
4 completion program. Even though you can be
5 viewed as full-time even if you're carrying
6 12 credits, you wind up on your own if you
7 don't graduate on time. So -- which of
8 course I didn't, so -- not that I was
9 eligible for TAP, but ...
10 The Governor's proposal for increasing
11 Excelsior to $150,000 of household income --
12 and that tuition would be frozen. So the
13 system gets a student in, and their tuition
14 stays the same for the four years. Other
15 students, who for whatever reason -- work or
16 whatever -- can't carry 30 credits a year,
17 they pay an extra $200 in tuition.
18 And the difference between those
19 students -- now, the students who are in EOP,
20 they generally graduate at the same or better
21 rate than students who come in without. What
22 is that graduation rate, do you know offhand?
23 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I do. It's
24 actually higher. I will get the exact
24
1 number, but it's roughly -- I want to say
2 78 percent for the state-operated, compared
3 to 71 percent. But I'll make sure you get
4 the right -- the exact numbers.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: I appreciate
6 that.
7 So we have a fairly high completion
8 rate from families that are making $21,000,
9 with the additional supports that they get.
10 And now we're suggesting that students who
11 are kind of in the middle get tuition
12 increases, but not the families that are up
13 to $125,000, $150,000. Does that seem that
14 there may be a better use of those resources?
15 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So I think the
16 opportunity to increase the aid to all
17 students attending SUNY would be welcome.
18 And there's many different ways, as you
19 mentioned, that we do that -- with EOP, with
20 TAP, with the PTS program, with Excelsior.
21 And now expanding Excelsior will allow more
22 students to go with less debt.
23 We would be grateful for any increase
24 in EOP and some of the other support programs
25
1 as well.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you.
3 The Governor has repeated his -- the
4 critical maintenance piece from last year.
5 At this point, what's the -- that's
6 $550 million. Do you have a backlog in
7 critical maintenance across the system? And
8 will the 550 actually meet the need?
9 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: We do have a
10 backlog. The 550 is part of a five-year
11 plan. So that's very helpful, and we're very
12 appreciative to the Governor and the
13 Legislature for giving us a multiyear
14 critical maintenance plan.
15 We estimate that probably to take care
16 of the backlog in a timely manner for our
17 roughly 850 state-owned-and-operated
18 buildings that we take care of, we probably
19 need a few hundred million more per year. So
20 we are looking for something in the 750 to
21 850 range.
22 What we're very excited about is the
23 opportunity to have appropriations for new
24 construction, because several of our
26
1 campuses are bursting at the seams for the
2 high-demand sort of STEAM and STEM programs.
3 So we're very thrilled about the opportunity
4 to have new construction.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: And speaking of
6 the new capital, it seems to be somewhat of a
7 matching program. How do you envision being
8 able to make full use of the dollars that are
9 available if there is in fact a match
10 required? What's been the record for SUNY
11 being able to attract those capital dollars?
12 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So there's
13 several different ways that we could come up
14 with the match. So I know you all know this:
15 It's 300 million, 200 million from the state
16 and 100 million from the individual campuses.
17 Now, that could be in the form of
18 philanthropy dollars, it can be in the form
19 of reserves, it can be in the form of
20 dollars, we believe, supplied by some of the
21 auxiliary operations. So -- as well as
22 savings.
23 We have launched, in anticipation of
24 being able to develop those sort of resources
27
1 through efficiencies, for example, a print
2 initiative, a print conservation. We believe
3 we can take 25 million out of the costs,
4 across SUNY, of printer and paper and toners
5 from printing. And so we're really going to
6 push this electronic initiative. I believe
7 we'll be as successful as we were with the
8 Open Education Resources, where we are saving
9 our students 47 million.
10 So I think it's a combination of
11 efficiencies, philanthropy, reserves, and
12 other resources from our campuses to come up
13 with that particular match.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: In view of the
15 fact that 40 percent of the state buildings
16 are in fact SUNY buildings, how much need is
17 there? So if we're looking at you having to
18 come up with 100 million and this year
19 300 million would be available, what is the
20 real need?
21 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So I think it's a
22 two-part answer, if I may.
23 One is there's a need every year for
24 about 300 million of new construction. The
28
1 important thing is to be able to plan over a
2 larger horizon. So we'd be very excited
3 about, just like the critical maintenance,
4 having a multiyear of the -- 550 a year for
5 five years, is to be able to have the
6 300 million per year for five years would be
7 a billion from the state and we'd be raising
8 a third of that on top of it.
9 So it's two things. One is we
10 probably need about a billion dollars over
11 five years from the state, and we need to
12 match that with about 330 million.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you.
14 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Thank you.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Before we go to
16 the Senate, I just wanted to acknowledge
17 we've been joined by Assemblywoman Lifton,
18 Assemblywoman Buttenschon, and Assemblywoman
19 Simon.
20 Now to the Senate.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 The chair of Higher Ed, Toby Stavisky.
23 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
24 Thank you, Chancellor, for your
29
1 service. We certainly appreciate your
2 enthusiasm and dedication and background.
3 It's I think going to be a great relationship
4 between you -- I know you've been here
5 several years, but it's I think going to be a
6 positive relationship.
7 Let me ask you a couple of questions.
8 You spoke about the various programs. What
9 is the university spending on remediation for
10 those students who are not able to provide
11 the necessary background for admission?
12 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So we've really
13 put a lot of effort into helping get students
14 ready for college. And give me just a minute
15 to explain what I mean by that.
16 If you go back to 2014-2015, there was
17 about 77,000 of our students -- so think
18 about that, on a base of roughly 450,000 at
19 that time -- 77,000, almost 80, out of 450
20 that required some sort of remediation. And
21 at that time the way we determined that was
22 the students would come in and they'd take an
23 exam. And based on that one piece of
24 information we'd put folks into --
30
1 individuals into our remediation math or
2 remediation English.
3 And as I said in my State of the
4 University System, how more discouraging can
5 that be than to have to go back and repeat?
6 And it's not credit-bearing.
7 So working with the leadership of
8 Johanna Duncan-Poitier, who's here, and the
9 campus presidents, and the coalition of the
10 willing, we have grown a corequisite English
11 and a math. So we've changed the way we look
12 at this. We say, okay, in English you're
13 going to go into a credit-bearing course but
14 we're going to provide non-credit-bearing,
15 another unit of non-credit-bearing but help
16 with preparing for English.
17 And here's what we found. This is
18 really fascinating. It turns out that if you
19 set the expectation that you will be able to
20 pass a credit-bearing course and you provide
21 the resources, we're finding that those
22 students actually pass that class faster and
23 on the first try.
24 So today, instead of 77,000 students
31
1 going into remediation, we have less than
2 40,000 students. I think last year it was
3 44,000, now we're down to 39,000. I believe
4 there will come a time when that is something
5 that is -- we'll either figure out something
6 even better to do than the corequisite model
7 that's working, or that model will take care
8 of the math and the English.
9 Now, you can do an estimate -- and I
10 tried to do an estimate just now kind of off
11 the top of my head -- what that means if
12 you're providing that extra instructional
13 support. So if you'd allow me to not give
14 you a number now off the top of my head, but
15 we'll come back with you, we'll get together
16 with the team and noodle out what that is
17 costing us.
18 SENATOR STAVISKY: That was my -- the
19 second part of the question, obviously, was
20 the price tag.
21 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Yeah.
22 SENATOR STAVISKY: I know it's
23 preferable to have classes taught by
24 full-time experienced faculty. But
32
1 unfortunately, colleges have to rely on
2 part-time or adjunct faculty.
3 Can you tell us the percentage of
4 adjuncts who are teaching, let's say at the
5 four year colleges?
6 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Yup. Yes. So if
7 I could start with the top-line number and
8 then I'll disaggregate the data.
9 So it's 50.6 percent of our faculty
10 are adjuncts. That's up. If you look at the
11 four-years, the comprehensives and the tech,
12 it's almost 50 percent exactly. It's like
13 49.6 percent. If you look at the doctoral
14 and the community colleges, they're almost
15 flipped. What do I mean by that? The
16 doctoral are basically 71.5 percent -- just
17 call it 70 percent for round numbers --
18 full-time, 30 percent adjunct. Community
19 colleges are just flipped, they're 30 percent
20 full-time, 70 percent adjunct.
21 SENATOR STAVISKY: And what about the
22 community colleges?
23 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: And that's the
24 community colleges, I'm sorry, 30 percent
33
1 full-time and 70 percent part-time.
2 That's interesting, right? I mean,
3 it's ...
4 SENATOR STAVISKY: About a year ago an
5 article appeared in the Times Union
6 discussing the question of the Confucius
7 Institute at the University at Albany. And
8 at the time the article -- the reporter had
9 called me, it was Rick Karlin, and I said
10 we've got to check into the situation.
11 And then Sunday the Daily News had an
12 op-ed by a SUNY professor outlining the
13 dangers -- and I thought it was a fairly
14 balanced article. It presented the arguments
15 both for and against the Confucius Institute.
16 And in fairness, this is a nationwide program
17 by the government of the People's Republic of
18 China. It's been -- I happen to support, as
19 you know, international programs, and I think
20 they are excellent.
21 But could you explain or respond to
22 some of the questions concerning academic
23 freedom, First Amendment, and all of the
24 other issues that have been raised?
34
1 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Certainly.
2 So this is something that I started
3 looking into when I first became chancellor.
4 And I looked into it for several reasons. I
5 think one of the reasons it's coming up now
6 is the concern, as you mentioned, about
7 academic freedom, transparency, and being
8 open about what's going on where. All very
9 valid and very important.
10 At the same time I was asked to go to
11 Washington to join in classified briefings --
12 of which I will not, obviously, divulge any
13 of the briefing -- but with senators, and to
14 learn about what their concerns are. And I
15 also made some recommendations in the general
16 area of intellectual property protection.
17 So this is something that we have been
18 thinking about and working on for a couple of
19 years. Turns out we have six Confucius
20 Institutes. Some of the information in the
21 article wasn't accurate, we'll correct that.
22 There is no longer a Confucius Institute at
23 SUNY Global, but that is being -- pending a
24 move to Nassau Community College. So there
35
1 are still six.
2 We are reviewing each one of the
3 contracts. We want to ensure that if we do
4 continue, which is contemplated at some of
5 them, that we'll be transparent, you'll know
6 what is being funded by when and the faculty
7 members have control over the content and the
8 curriculum, which was one of the main issues.
9 And it's really an issue -- as a
10 chancellor of the State University of
11 New York, you want to make sure your faculty
12 owns the curriculum, owns the content in
13 their classroom. And that's federal law,
14 that's SUNY policy, and that's the way those
15 particular contracts will read.
16 SENATOR STAVISKY: I was particularly
17 troubled when I read -- and perhaps it was
18 inaccurate -- that the contract between the
19 Confucius Institute at Binghamton was not
20 with the university, but with the Research
21 Foundation.
22 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Right.
23 SENATOR STAVISKY: Would you comment
24 on that? Because I think there's certainly a
36
1 lack of -- the Research Foundation is far
2 better than it was when I first joined the
3 Legislature, and in fact asked questions at
4 the budget hearing about 10 years ago. It is
5 far better, but it's still very -- to me,
6 very troubling.
7 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So the Research
8 Foundation, as you know, was established I
9 think in 1977 to support the -- maybe '57,
10 one of those "seven" years -- to support the
11 research enterprise of the State University
12 of New York and to monitor and to track. And
13 we have put in place in the last few years a
14 very strong board, on which SUNY has
15 representation, and they monitor and manage
16 all of our research contracts.
17 So because these contracts have to do
18 with international exchange and they are a
19 funded research contract, that would be the
20 vehicle by which SUNY engages in any contract
21 with anyone, is through the Research
22 Foundation.
23 Having said that, I just want to
24 reiterate, we are going to be open,
37
1 transparent, and make sure that we account --
2 and we'll be glad to get back to you with all
3 the funding that's going through the Research
4 Foundation, in particular for the Confucius
5 Institutes.
6 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
7 One last quick question. I received a
8 memo from the University Police, and it was
9 troubling because of the attrition, the fact
10 that we spend time and money training these
11 officers and they leave. And there are --
12 apparently they have some issues with the
13 university, and I think you ought to have an
14 opportunity to respond.
15 Have you seen the --
16 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I have not. But
17 I'd be more than happy to receive the letter.
18 SENATOR STAVISKY: We'll provide you
19 with a copy. Oh, you'll hear their
20 testimony, I think, today. But I will
21 provide you with a copy.
22 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Great. Thank
23 you.
24 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
38
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
2 We've been joined by Assemblywoman
3 Bichotte, Assemblyman Fall. And we go to
4 Assemblyman Epstein for questions.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you.
6 And thank you for being with us today.
7 I do appreciate your testimony. But I just
8 have some real concerns about what you're
9 proposing. And just, you know, along those
10 lines with Assemblywoman Glick was talking
11 about where we're seeing so much food
12 insecurity on our campuses, people struggling
13 to make ends meet, people going part-time
14 because they can't afford to continue to go
15 to school -- and then we're making choices
16 around expanding Excelsior but cutting other
17 programs where students have much greater
18 need.
19 And I'm wondering what the logic is to
20 expand a program from 125 to 150 when we see
21 students who can't afford the tuition
22 increase that we're proposing, students who
23 tell us every day they can't drop out. My
24 daughter attends a SUNY, and there are so
39
1 many friends of hers who will not be able to
2 eat each month on campus because they don't
3 have the resources.
4 So I'm just concerned around this
5 choice. And why not expand the EOP programs?
6 Why not put resources for people who have
7 deeper need? Why not get from a thousand to
8 5,000 for those people we know it will make a
9 difference in their lives. And that we -- we
10 talked about getting people at lower economic
11 situations to higher, that's an exact
12 opportunity to do it. And I'm just not --
13 I'm baffled, really, by the choices here.
14 So I'd love to hear what the logic is
15 to making these choices around expanding
16 Excelsior but not really expanding for
17 programs with deeper needs and students who
18 are struggling on our campuses every day.
19 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So, first of all,
20 thank you very much for the question. And
21 look, it resonates with me, being able to go
22 to college and come out debt-free. Because I
23 went to university on a full scholarship,
24 both tuition and room and board. I could not
40
1 have gone otherwise. So you're speaking
2 exactly to this kid 40 years ago.
3 That said, I don't think we need to
4 make a choice between one or the other. I
5 think we need to do it all. And I think I
6 was -- well, we were all thrilled that the
7 EOP program, the EOC program and the Attain
8 programs were all continued in the Executive
9 Budget. So I think that's showing the
10 Governor's strong support for exactly the
11 individuals that you're talking about that we
12 care greatly about. And I would love to see
13 those programs increased.
14 At the same time we have a lot of need
15 for students -- you know, depending on where
16 you live, those levels are meaningful and are
17 challenging. Going to food insecurity,
18 that's exactly why we put a food pantry or
19 access to a food pantry -- and I've visited
20 many of these, in fact, and they're
21 wonderful. In fact at many of our campuses
22 they're run by students, which is just
23 awesome.
24 So we need to continue to be vigilant.
41
1 We need to continue to bring resources to
2 SUNY. And that's why, you know, I'm quite
3 interested -- one of my top priorities is
4 really philanthropy and helping our campuses
5 or working very hard to bring outside
6 resources to bear for our campuses so that we
7 can continue to create the kind of programs
8 we need if we're going to be that social
9 mobility engine.
10 And that's, I think, the thing that's
11 quite interesting now. When we look at the
12 cost of educating the student -- and I said
13 this in my testimony, but I think it bears
14 repeating, if I do say so myself -- 18.3 new
15 net jobs created since we started emerging
16 from the Great Recession 10 years ago, 18.3.
17 Eighteen of those went to individuals with
18 some kind of college education. And more
19 than that, 2 million jobs that were there for
20 students who only had a high school education
21 vanished.
22 So everyone needs a college degree.
23 Everybody has to have access to this. We
24 have to support all our students going
42
1 forward and particularly, of course, the most
2 vulnerable. I can't tell you how awesome it
3 was to go to that ceremony and see 42
4 outstanding students that had special needs,
5 families struggling, and were doing
6 fabulously because of the support of the EOP
7 program.
8 So I support what you're saying. We
9 should increase --
10 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Good, I would
11 love to see ways to expand that.
12 Same thing when we passed the DREAM
13 Act. And I know a lot of students have
14 applied. How many students have applied for
15 DREAM and TAP funding, how many students
16 applied versus how many got it? It would be
17 great to know what the differential is and
18 what's going on there.
19 And the last thing I'll raise, because
20 I know I'm out of time, is I would love to
21 see dedicated funding streams for CUNY and
22 SUNY. I'd love to see real dollars going.
23 And I know we have a concern about additional
24 revenue, but we've got to close that TAP gap,
43
1 because we need to do that.
2 And we'd love to see you partner with
3 us to -- I've got legislation and other
4 people have legislation to direct funding to
5 CUNY and SUNY. And we just need to have
6 dedicated funding streams, because we're
7 going to be in this fight where we expand the
8 TAP gap every year with tuition increases as
9 you're proposing.
10 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Totally agree.
11 And in fact if I may just --
12 (Timeclock chirping.)
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Sure.
14 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Can I? May I,
15 Chairpersons? Okay.
16 I think that there's even something
17 more we need to do. Because I think that
18 it's not good enough now just to educate
19 students in the kind of fields that they love
20 and aspire -- which we need to do that. We
21 also need to layer on top of that
22 entrepreneurship, innovation, the way that we
23 can help. When you've got a SUNY -- I mean,
24 this is, I think, the big idea. Right?
44
1 It's -- you've got a SUNY campus with an --
2 almost 90 percent of every New Yorker within
3 30 miles. And we have this outmigration from
4 upstate to downstate. Right? We all know
5 this. And the Governor has put together the
6 REDCs to get at that.
7 Now, imagine that the students -- you
8 know, I said during my testimony that
9 75 percent after three to four years are
10 still living in the State of New York.
11 Suppose we unleash their innovation, their
12 entrepreneurship, and we help them stay in
13 place and create those companies. It would
14 be phenomenal.
15 And I highlighted one of those at the
16 SOTUS, which is Ben Conard, who did Five
17 North Chocolate. He learned about
18 entrepreneurship at Geneseo; he's using a
19 kitchen at Stony Brook. That's what we need
20 to unleash in this state, and we can do it.
21 With a little more support.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
23 We've been joined by Assemblyman
24 McDonald.
45
1 Now to the Senate.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
3 Next, Jim Seward, ranker on Finance.
4 SENATOR SEWARD: Thank you,
5 Madam Chair.
6 And thank you, Chancellor. It's been
7 a real pleasure working with you since you
8 came here to New York and the SUNY system, on
9 behalf of the many SUNY campuses I have in my
10 district and the system as a whole.
11 I wanted to return to a discussion of
12 the proposed tuition authorization hikes that
13 are included in the budget. How much revenue
14 will be generated if these proposed tuition
15 increases are implemented?
16 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So for every $100
17 increase in tuition, the net, net of the TAP
18 gap and Excelsior, is about $9 million. So a
19 $200 increase would generate about
20 $18 million net each year.
21 SENATOR SEWARD: Per year.
22 You know, with the proposed increase
23 in the income eligibility for the Excelsior
24 scholarship, and with these proposed tuition
46
1 hikes only being paid by non-Excelsior
2 students, what percentage of SUNY students
3 will actually be paying the increase? Do you
4 know offhand?
5 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So I don't know
6 offhand, but we'll get back to you on that.
7 We can calculate it.
8 And the reason why is in part, as you
9 know, Excelsior is the last dollar. And so
10 when it looks to increase, you need to back
11 out students that would be eligible for TAP,
12 students that would be eligible for
13 Excelsior. You know, we just have to do a
14 little bit of sharpening a pencil.
15 SENATOR SEWARD: Do you have any
16 concerns -- for those students who do not
17 qualify for Excelsior, do you have any
18 concerns about as the tuition goes up, that
19 their average student loan debt will also go
20 up upon graduation?
21 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Well, we're very
22 concerned about, you know, the debt of our
23 students.
24 And you may know this, but the average
47
1 debt -- so half of our students graduated
2 debt-free, roughly -- 47.3 percent. Call it
3 a half for now. The other students, on
4 average, will have upwards about 27K in debt
5 when they graduate, like on average.
6 So we're very concerned about that.
7 We want to keep a SUNY education -- you know,
8 it's a balancing act -- affordable but also
9 high quality. And that's where, you know,
10 the support is so -- you know, so appreciated
11 from the Legislature and the Governor to be
12 able to do that.
13 SENATOR SEWARD: I wanted to shift
14 gears to the community colleges. You know,
15 last year the enacted budget included a
16 hold-harmless provision to offset some of the
17 enrollment declines on many of our community
18 college campuses. And actually there was a
19 base aid increase of $100 as well.
20 Neither of these are included in the
21 Executive's proposal. Do you have concerns
22 about how our community college campuses are
23 going to absorb both the flat base aid
24 funding that's included in the budget as well
48
1 as dealing with anticipated loss of funding
2 due to, you know, some additional projected
3 enrollment declines?
4 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So of our
5 415,000 -- that's head count -- students,
6 192,000 are community college. So roughly
7 half. A little less, but about half. So
8 we're very concerned about that.
9 We would very much like to see the
10 floor be put back in place, and that sort of
11 the held harmless, as well as an increase in
12 per-head count.
13 As I said earlier in the testimony,
14 for many of our students this is the first
15 entree into higher ed. And a lot of our
16 students commute, so the real cost for them
17 of education is tuition. And so it would be
18 very helpful to re-look at the floor.
19 And, you know, the way I think I
20 described it maybe even at last year's
21 hearing was, you know, it's a little bit
22 like -- there are base costs and variable
23 costs of education. And I know you know all
24 that. It's like going into a restaurant, you
49
1 know, and no matter if one person comes in
2 the door or 10 go in the door, you've still
3 got to pay the rent, you've got to keep the
4 lights on, and you still have to have the --
5 so those pay for the fixed costs. And that's
6 what the floor helps us do.
7 And then the $100 increase for some of
8 our community colleges that are increasing,
9 that helps them pay with -- you know, like
10 the salad and the main course and all that,
11 which is more variable.
12 So we really think that it was a
13 terrific vision and insight from the
14 Legislature to put that in, and we'd be very
15 grateful to see that restored.
16 SENATOR SEWARD: You would advocate
17 that we do it again this year.
18 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I'm sorry?
19 SENATOR SEWARD: You would advocate
20 that we do that again this year.
21 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Yes.
22 SENATOR SEWARD: Just one final
23 question on capital. You've outlined the
24 great needs that still exist out there on the
50
1 various campuses. Do you have any concerns
2 about that two-for-one matching program
3 that's in the budget that there will be,
4 shall we say an uneven availability of these
5 capital funds depending on whether or not a
6 campus could meet the match?
7 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So we are looking
8 very carefully at each and every campus to
9 see what the ability is to do the match. We
10 do believe that the majority of our campuses
11 will be able to do that. In fact, the great
12 majority of our campuses will be able to do a
13 match from a variety of sources, whether it's
14 philanthropy or reserves or auxiliary
15 services or help from the SUNY system.
16 And so we look forward to working with
17 the campuses to get the new construction, you
18 know, moving that we really need for some of
19 these high-need programs.
20 SENATOR SEWARD: Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Assembly.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We've been
24 joined by Assemblywoman Hyndman.
51
1 And we go to Assemblywoman Lifton.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And we've been
3 joined by Senator Rachel May.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: Good morning,
5 Chancellor.
6 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Good morning.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: I want to just
8 second the concerns about the childcare
9 centers on campus, Small Business Development
10 Centers, the Veterinary College at Cornell,
11 all very important investments for the state
12 and critical for people attending both two-
13 and four-year colleges.
14 I was glad to hear Senator Stavisky
15 talk about the full-time versus adjunct
16 faculty issue. As the daughter of a SUNY
17 professor and --
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Can you talk
19 more into the -- or pull the mic a little
20 closer?
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: -- and a leader
22 in SUNY for many years, secretary of the
23 State Faculty Senate many years ago, he would
24 not be happy if I didn't ask further about
52
1 that.
2 You know, we did the tuition increases
3 over how many years, we did the rational
4 tuition policy increases that were four
5 years. And I think we were sure that that
6 was going to work to improve the education
7 for students. That was going to go towards
8 improving the quality of students' education.
9 I have to assume you would agree that
10 having full-time faculty and having good
11 numbers there would be an important piece of
12 that. And I know this is -- I'm not laying
13 this at your doorstep, I lay it very much at
14 the state government's doorstep in terms of
15 support for SUNY. But -- and we're talking
16 about another tuition increase. Is it just
17 holding even? Is it talking about progress?
18 And, you know, 50 percent adjunct faculty is
19 not a great number. I was told eight years
20 ago, six years ago, five years ago that we
21 are working on it, we are improving it, we
22 are improving it. And these don't look like
23 improved numbers to me at all.
24 Do you have goals on that? Do you
53
1 have a plan, given -- you know, if that
2 tuition increase comes through here, is some
3 of that going to go towards truly -- not just
4 wishful thinking, but truly looking at the
5 issue of full-time versus adjunct faculty?
6 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Well, first of
7 all, thank you very much for the question.
8 Absolutely, I would love to see more
9 full-time faculty. Because when you have
10 full-time faculty, they're full-time. So you
11 get extra -- the benefit of someone that's
12 there often for the mentoring and the office
13 hours and those sort of things. Although I
14 must say that our adjunct faculty are very
15 dedicated as well. And so converting some of
16 those positions to full-time would be a goal.
17 What I'd like to do is come back and
18 look at the history and look at what progress
19 we have made. I know through some of the
20 innovation fund that I mentioned earlier, we
21 are actually using those funds to attract
22 full-time faculty.
23 Also something that I noticed my first
24 semester here at SUNY is that, you know,
54
1 somewhere between a third and 40 percent of
2 our faculty could retire over the horizon of
3 when I'm chancellor. So therefore we have
4 initiated a program called PRODiG, as you may
5 have heard about, where we've set a goal to
6 hire a thousand underrepresented minority and
7 women faculty over the next decade. And we
8 want to hire them early so that they can
9 learn from the existing faculty and
10 understand -- you know, get mentored at that
11 time.
12 So we think it's a really important
13 program. It's gotten off to a great start in
14 the first six months. I mean, we announced
15 it at the SOTUS last January, we started to
16 stand it up with workshops in March, and then
17 proposals were due in July. So we're really
18 in the first six months of this. But we've
19 already hired 74 faculty through PRODiG, and
20 we expect that we'll be able to increase
21 that.
22 So this is a big focus of mine, not
23 just the -- it's demographics writ large.
24 It's the do our students that are 35 percent
55
1 underrepresented minority, are they seeing
2 someone in the classroom that looks like
3 them? So that they see it, they can be it.
4 Well, when you only have 9 percent of your
5 faculty underrepresented minorities, they're
6 not seeing it, as much as we think that it
7 would be helpful.
8 So that's one reason why we launched
9 this. We've put a number out there, a
10 thousand over a decade. We don't think it's
11 too aggressive. We will accomplish that.
12 And so, yes, faculty and supporting our
13 faculty is one of the highest priorities you
14 can possibly have as a leader in the
15 institution.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: Of course I
17 support that program. It sounds like a very
18 important program to be doing. I know you've
19 spoken about it before.
20 Are we going to see a bump up in those
21 numbers from 50 percent to 55 percent or
22 60 percent over the next five years,
23 especially --
24 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So we are
56
1 about -- yeah. No, it's a good question.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: -- especially
3 with a tuition increase?
4 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: And let me
5 apologize, we should come back to that.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: That's all
7 right.
8 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So if you look at
9 the national averages, we are about 4 to
10 5 percent lower than we should be. So I
11 think last year we provided some information
12 about what it would cost -- what it would
13 take to move the numbers by 10 percent. I
14 don't remember that number off the top of my
15 head. But I -- then we looked at the data
16 and we saw that really we're national average
17 probably low -- more on the order of 4 or
18 5 percent than 10.
19 So if it would be okay, we'll come
20 back with an estimate on what it would cost
21 and how that would work with a tuition
22 increase from that.
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: Thank you,
24 Chancellor.
57
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
2 To the Senate now.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
4 We've been joined by Senator Brad
5 Hoylman, and Senator John Liu is next up for
6 questions.
7 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair.
8 Chancellor, we've got issues. Oh, I
9 apologize. I'm a proud graduate of SUNY
10 Binghamton.
11 We have issues, Chancellor. And the
12 issue is that we're not -- we're not
13 investing enough money in this state for
14 education. There's a great deal of focus on
15 I guess what some people call lower
16 education, the elementary through high school
17 education, and the need for more Foundation
18 Aid. But it's clear that we also need more
19 money for our higher education, both SUNY and
20 CUNY.
21 I have some questions because, you
22 know, it's been difficult to get some very
23 clear numbers out there. So perhaps you
24 would have them off the top of your head.
58
1 And if not, then you can ask your staff to
2 follow up with me.
3 But basically, what's the total
4 operating budget of SUNY, the whole system?
5 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: The whole system.
6 I think it's around 3, 3.5 billion? Eileen?
7 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN: {Inaudible.}
8 Thirteen billion.
9 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Yeah, 13 billion.
10 SENATOR LIU: Yeah, 13 billion. And
11 how much of that is state support versus
12 tuition?
13 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I think that's
14 the number that's about 3.5.
15 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN: Thirty percent.
16 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Thirty percent.
17 So it's about 3.9 billion, direct and
18 indirect.
19 SENATOR LIU: Yeah, that's very close.
20 I mean, I've got a chart here that says state
21 support is 32 percent, and the remaining
22 68 percent is supported by tuition.
23 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Right.
24 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN: {Inaudible.}
59
1 SENATOR LIU: Right, that's a --
2 what's that?
3 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: In-hospital
4 revenues, patient visits and so forth.
5 SENATOR LIU: Okay. But that's a
6 small amount, right?
7 (Overtalk; inaudible.)
8 SENATOR LIU: Twenty-five -- so it's
9 25 percent hospital revenues, 32 percent
10 state support and the remaining 43 percent
11 would be tuition?
12 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN: Tuition, fees,
13 yes.
14 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Tuition, fees.
15 Would some of that be auxiliary services too?
16 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN: It's in the
17 fees.
18 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Yeah, it's in the
19 fees, okay.
20 SENATOR LIU: And that 43 percent from
21 tuition and fees is much higher -- it's a
22 much higher percentage than it was perhaps 10
23 years ago.
24 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: We can look that
60
1 up. I don't know that number off the top --
2 SENATOR LIU: Okay. Well, I mean, I
3 don't -- I have some numbers here. It says
4 here that the state support was 46 percent
5 nine years ago. So it's down to 32 percent.
6 So we're clearly -- I mean, the state is just
7 not coughing up where it should. And that's
8 not your fault, Chancellor, I'm just putting
9 it out there.
10 So what do you think the trajectory is
11 with these tuition increases? Is it -- with
12 the tuition increases, is it even going to be
13 more than 43 percent tuition-supported? Is
14 it -- is more than 43 percent -- is even more
15 than 43 percent of the SUNY operating costs
16 going to be paid for by student tuition and
17 fees? And what's the trajectory here?
18 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I think the
19 trajectory will depend, you know, on some of
20 the ways that we can work together to improve
21 not just -- actually, to create new revenue
22 streams. So that's one of the reasons why
23 I'm really pushing philanthropy. It's
24 another reason why we are working at SUNY
61
1 Online, which is our online platform, to
2 launch that.
3 Because if you look at the
4 trajectory -- and we've done this in great
5 detail. From where we are now with 415,000
6 students in 2020 to where we're going to be
7 in 2025, if we don't have some sort of
8 intervention with regard to garnering more
9 out-of-state students or increasing the
10 number of students that go to higher ed in
11 the state, or through our online platform,
12 then we will be down probably tens of
13 thousands of more students.
14 Which will be harder to make up with
15 tuition and fees if you're losing, you know,
16 enrollment. So enrollment is a laser focus
17 for us right now as well.
18 SENATOR LIU: You're -- you're afraid
19 that enrollment will decline?
20 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Well, you see
21 that for the first time, I think over the
22 last four years it's -- actually, over the
23 last 40 years there's been outmigration from
24 the state. I mean, this is not a new
62
1 phenomenon. The state has been losing
2 population, and it isn't being offset by
3 immigration and new natural births. So we
4 are having a statewide, you know, decline in
5 population.
6 SENATOR LIU: But tuition is being
7 increased not to make up for a declining or
8 at least a flat level of enrollment, right?
9 Tuition is being increased because of
10 increased operating costs.
11 It just feels like the tuition
12 increases are higher than the increases in
13 operating costs. Which is why that
14 percentage keeps growing larger.
15 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So I think
16 that -- I am very sensitive to increasing
17 costs for our students. I think that one
18 gets a little bit of a contextual view of
19 that if we look at what's the tuition
20 in-state at Connecticut, New Jersey,
21 Pennsylvania, and our border states, our
22 so-called border states. So it's about 4,000
23 to $5,000 more per year.
24 SENATOR LIU: Okay. Thank you.
63
1 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So -- I mean, but
2 that's the real -- so our -- if we charged --
3 our out-of-state tuition is $18,070. The
4 in-state tuition of our border states is
5 about 12,000. Which is about 5,000 more than
6 our in-state and about 5,000 less than our
7 out-of-state.
8 SENATOR LIU: Regardless of whether
9 they're coming from in-state or out-of-state,
10 it's -- you said 75 percent of the graduates
11 do stay in New York.
12 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: That's right. So
13 we want to attract them to the state. And
14 SUNY can be that engine that attracts
15 students to the state because of outstanding
16 institutions like your alma mater.
17 SENATOR LIU: And attract corporations
18 and employers. Thank you, Madam Chair.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
20 Assembly.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
22 We go to Assemblywoman Fahy.
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you.
24 Thank you. A pleasure to see you and
64
1 have you here, Chancellor.
2 A few things, not to repeat some of
3 the questions, but I just -- one of the first
4 questions and comments was on the TAP gap,
5 and I just want to reiterate those concerns.
6 I share the concerns that we really need to
7 address that and hear it all the time, not
8 just from the students, but also from the
9 universities, so want to reiterate that.
10 Also love the continued graduation
11 rates and good feedback on the EOP program.
12 So I just wish it was there for everybody
13 that applied. So I want to also share in
14 those comments and support for the EOP
15 programs. I have to wonder why we're not
16 doing a little more there.
17 Finally, your comment on the
18 credit-bearing courses is just -- that's
19 really good news. For years we had heard
20 about the remedial courses, we were losing
21 students being saddled with remedial courses
22 and then not making it or giving up on them.
23 Couple of questions. In the community
24 colleges, the cut -- can you explain the cut
65
1 and can you address the charge-back issue?
2 There's a reduction of 22 million on the
3 community colleges. Is that all due to
4 enrollment? And do we know how that will
5 affect Hudson Valley here?
6 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So the
7 22 million, you're saying, without having the
8 floor or an increase of $100 per student,
9 that will be a net of about 22 million.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: That's what's in
11 the books.
12 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So -- well, we're
13 hoping that the floor will get reinstituted.
14 And we'd also like to have an increase
15 in the head count. So I will have to do some
16 good work on advocacy to see if we can put
17 back the floor.
18 I don't know how it will specifically
19 impact Hudson Valley. Some of that will
20 depend on enrollment. Some of that will
21 depend on -- but we can certainly get you
22 that information.
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Okay. And I'd
24 love the update on the chargeback issue,
66
1 which becomes -- it's an annual issue I bring
2 up between Rensselaer County and Albany
3 County, and would appreciate the feedback on
4 that, because Albany County gets hit and yet
5 we have more students there at Hudson Valley,
6 a terrific community college.
7 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: If I could -- can
8 I just say one thing on the chargeback?
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Sure.
10 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So we have put
11 together a working group studying the
12 chargeback, seeing how we might be able to be
13 helpful there, and we can come back to you
14 with where that is.
15 That's one thing that I promised we
16 would do last year at the hearing.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Okay. And we've
18 had working groups before on that, so I
19 really am anxious to see the update.
20 Childcare, that's been mentioned, the
21 cut. Serious concern. Childcare is just a
22 crisis throughout the state.
23 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Yes, absolutely.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: And I was very
67
1 concerned to see that even we would cut that.
2 I know that's been mentioned before, so I
3 want to get that in.
4 Sustainability, along with capital
5 funding. I know since you've been here,
6 sustainability and energy efficiency of the
7 SUNY buildings -- which I understand are
8 40 percent of the state-owned buildings in
9 the state. I know you keep mentioning it.
10 I'm pleased that the Governor has proposed a
11 $200 million increase. Tell me how much that
12 it is in comparison to what the needs would
13 be.
14 As you know, I've talked before about
15 expanding on the bond, the Environmental
16 Bond Act, so that we can address SUNY and
17 CUNY needs. But what do you need to get at
18 this sustainability issue that I know you've
19 championed since you've been here?
20 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Right. So we
21 proposed -- we have 550 for critical
22 maintenance. And last year we proposed an
23 additional 200 a year in order -- the best
24 time to do -- and I know you all know this,
68
1 but energy efficiency and upgrade is when
2 you're doing critical maintenance. So if
3 you're going to replace the roof anyway, then
4 that's when you want to put in the
5 insulation, because you're going to increase,
6 you know, the better insulation because
7 you're going to be having to replace it. So
8 it's just more efficient to do it at that
9 time.
10 So additional funding in order to
11 address the energy efficiency through
12 critical maintenance would be great. The
13 match also allows us to get at the need for
14 new construction.
15 So we have between, say -- well, I'll
16 just say a couple of billion and I'll get
17 back to you -- over a period of time like
18 five years of new construction on the drawing
19 board. So it's new engineering buildings,
20 you know, at Stony Brook and at Albany and
21 Buffalo and Binghamton. There are new
22 buildings at the university centers. There's
23 new buildings at Purchase. And then there's
24 a renovation, which is more like a new
69
1 building, of the natural sciences at
2 Old Westbury. We have tremendous needs in
3 the STEM area and we need -- and it's on the
4 order of billions over a period of time.
5 And it's that surety of knowing those
6 fundings will be there year after year so
7 that we can plan it, design it, construct it
8 and move in. And that whole process can take
9 four to five years. So having that support
10 there is just very important.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Okay, Chancellor,
12 I really would love to hear more on this.
13 I'm almost out of time. I'd be remiss if I
14 didn't mention our own parochial need here in
15 that engineering building at UAlbany. But
16 I'd love to hear what the overall number is
17 to get at this retrofitting and energy
18 efficiency for the SUNY buildings. Because
19 again, I think we need to go beyond what is
20 proposed.
21 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: And we'll get
22 back to you on that in detail.
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Okay, thank you.
24 Thank you, Madam Chair.
70
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
2 Senator Robert Jackson.
3 SENATOR JACKSON: Good morning,
4 Chancellor.
5 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Good morning.
6 SENATOR JACKSON: It's always good to
7 see you.
8 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: It's good to see
9 you too.
10 SENATOR JACKSON: And I'm surprised
11 you don't have other staff up there with you,
12 but it appears as though you're so
13 knowledgeable about the fact that -- the
14 statistics that you're putting out. And I
15 clearly believe you're a highly qualified
16 professional doing the best job that you can.
17 But let me ask you a question. I'm
18 looking at some of the highlights. So the
19 Higher Education Services Corporation is
20 being cut 5.3 percent. What impact is that
21 going to have on children, young adults,
22 getting into college, in your opinion?
23 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So HESC
24 obviously, and I saw Guillermo here, supports
71
1 all of our Excelsior and supports many other
2 programs such as STEM programs. And they're
3 very important to the success of both SUNY
4 and CUNY. So I --
5 SENATOR JACKSON: But it will have an
6 impact, though. I would --
7 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Yes, it will.
8 Yes, sir.
9 SENATOR JACKSON: What are they
10 cutting, 64 what?
11 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I'm not -- I
12 don't know the exact number, but --
13 SENATOR JACKSON: Sixty-four million
14 dollars, I think, out of an $18 billion
15 budget. Clearly it's going to have an impact
16 when you're cutting that much money out. I
17 mean, I'm looking at SUNY overall is an
18 increase of 6.5 percent, is that correct?
19 That's what it says here. Am I right or
20 wrong?
21 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: SUNY overall
22 would be 1.9 percent, we had requested in our
23 budget, from base aid. I'm sure more than
24 that, because of the benefits and the costs
72
1 there.
2 SENATOR JACKSON: So with respect to
3 that, knowing this budget is -- a lot of talk
4 was about tuition, so -- and there is a
5 proposal on the table to continue the $200
6 per year for the next five years. Would you
7 be in favor of freezing it where it is now,
8 with no increase, and let the State of
9 New York pick up -- you said it's $18 million
10 per year, is that right, TAP?
11 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Eighteen million,
12 that's net, yeah. That's taking into account
13 the gap.
14 SENATOR JACKSON: Okay, 18 million.
15 But will you be willing to just charge no
16 additional tuition for students coming in and
17 the State of New York would just pick up that
18 cost factor? When you look at a $178 billion
19 budget, that's not a lot of money, would you
20 agree?
21 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Sorry --
22 SENATOR JACKSON: That is not a lot of
23 money to freeze it and just whatever the cost
24 factor is, in order to continue to provide
73
1 the colleges and universities the monies that
2 we'd get from normal tuition that students
3 are paying for.
4 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: We certainly
5 would love to work with you on exploring the
6 ability to make SUNY even more affordable to
7 our students as well as get the support we
8 need for the ongoing operations, including
9 the well-deserved and long overdue pay raises
10 to our faculty and staff, our operations, and
11 also putting in place the floor for the
12 community colleges. So we would look forward
13 to having a conversation.
14 SENATOR JACKSON: And talking about
15 the operations and talking about staff, what
16 is the situation with your unionized staff?
17 I think your -- most of the staff at SUNY is
18 represented by UUP, is that correct?
19 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: That's correct,
20 yes.
21 SENATOR JACKSON: Has that contract
22 expired? What's going on with that?
23 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: No, it was just
24 renewed -- I think it was last year? And
74
1 therefore it's -- there is a retroactive
2 piece for two years and then going forward
3 for four years, and it's a 2 percent base and
4 a 1 percent merit.
5 SENATOR JACKSON: And how was that
6 covered in the budget process? I mean, did
7 the State of New York then give that
8 additional money to cover that contract, or
9 it would expect to be taken out of the hides
10 of the colleges?
11 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Well, we would
12 love to work with you to explore ways that we
13 can make SUNY even more affordable.
14 SENATOR JACKSON: I understand. I
15 know you will -- I know you want to work with
16 me. I asked the question, was the -- did the
17 State of New York pick up that and pay for
18 that, or is it expected to come out of the
19 hides of the colleges? That's my question to
20 you. That's a direct question.
21 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Yeah. The direct
22 base aid has been flat over the last, I
23 think, so many years.
24 SENATOR JACKSON: So in essence,
75
1 then, it has not been picked up by the
2 government overall.
3 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Well, base aid
4 has remained flat. But of course our debt
5 service and our benefits are paid for, and
6 we're very grateful for that, from the state,
7 because that's an expensive -- as you know,
8 the increase in the overall budget is, as you
9 said, over 6 percent because of the increased
10 costs and because of the debt service that
11 we're very, very happy to receive.
12 SENATOR JACKSON: But, I mean, you
13 would say that all of your staff deserve a
14 raise in order to live appropriately and --
15 from a normal point of view, is that correct?
16 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I do support our
17 staff receiving raises, absolutely.
18 SENATOR JACKSON: Uh-huh. So overall,
19 from a capital point of view, my
20 understanding in hearing all around that the
21 capital amount of money needs to be
22 increased. Do you agree with that or
23 disagree with that? Or you have --
24 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I believe there's
76
1 300 million in the Governor's budget for
2 capital, and we're very excited about that.
3 SENATOR JACKSON: You're what?
4 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: There's 300
5 million in appropriations --
6 SENATOR JACKSON: You said you're
7 satisfied with that or you're happy about
8 that?
9 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I'm happy about
10 that. Two hundred of that is new capital,
11 and 100 of that is match from SUNY.
12 SENATOR JACKSON: Well, I don't -- I'm
13 not happy about that.
14 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Well, then I'm --
15 okay.
16 (Laughter.)
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You get to remain
18 unhappy about that, Senator Jackson.
19 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you. Thank
20 you, Madam Chair.
21 (Laughter.)
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: And we go to
23 Assemblywoman Buttenschon.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BUTTENSCHON: Thank you,
77
1 Chancellor, for being here today. I
2 appreciate your efforts, as a SUNY graduate
3 also.
4 My colleagues have brought up many
5 issues that are very concerning, I know, to
6 you also, the TAP gap, EOP, and many aspects.
7 I do just want to touch back on the adjunct
8 ratio. You said it was 70/30 in our
9 community colleges.
10 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Correct.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BUTTENSCHON: Is that
12 something we're looking at to change? My
13 rationale, obviously, is many of these
14 students, this is their first time coming
15 into a higher educational setting, and the
16 need for those faculty that are experienced
17 and working full-time.
18 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So, you know,
19 adjuncts -- there's many different ways that
20 an adjunct works with us at SUNY. Some of
21 the adjuncts are what you might call
22 professors of the practice. As you said,
23 they are full-time or they're part-time in
24 the workforce or retired, and they have such
78
1 a wealth of experience we definitely -- you
2 know, we love all our adjuncts, and those are
3 a particular set of experiences that we
4 relish.
5 You know, I think the opportunity to
6 capture newly minted Ph.D.s or masters in the
7 community college who want to make a career
8 out of teaching with SUNY by converting those
9 adjunct positions to full-time would be
10 really terrific. So I think that's something
11 that we really need to look at.
12 I think without a funding floor or a
13 per -- and/or the increase in the individual
14 state support for the students, it would be
15 difficult to do that.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BUTTENSCHON: I guess so
17 the question is, are you looking to change
18 those numbers? Or you're just going to
19 continue to remain at 70/30 and feel, I guess
20 as my colleague stated, satisfied or happy?
21 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Sure, yeah.
22 Well, I'd like to increase the full-time
23 faculty, absolutely.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BUTTENSCHON: And then a
79
1 question regarding mental health obviously
2 facing so many of our institutions. You have
3 created a task force. Is this a new task
4 force or is it a task force that's been in
5 place? And when do you anticipate hearing
6 recommendations from this task force?
7 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Certainly. So
8 this is a task force that I put in place in
9 the fall. It's had already two meetings, and
10 I've attended one of them. It will come back
11 with recommendations. And, you know, it's
12 borne out by the fact that according to the
13 one survey by Healthy Minds, about 39 percent
14 of the students that responded are
15 experiencing some significant mental health
16 issue.
17 Well, that's a high percentage. I
18 mean, you know, you have to ask, well, how
19 many base and what was the survey response,
20 and I get all that. But it's still a
21 significant number. And this is, you know,
22 part of the challenge, is that we know that
23 our students, to be successful, need all
24 kinds of support. They need academic
80
1 support, they need food security support,
2 mental health, in some cases, support.
3 So these are things we want to be
4 there to provide. Childcare. That's one of
5 the reasons why we would like to see the
6 telehealth mental counseling funding
7 restored. So yes, it's very important to us.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BUTTENSCHON: And as my
9 colleague Fahy stated about the numbers, I
10 would be interested in those numbers --
11 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Okay, very good.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BUTTENSCHON: -- of
13 students that are in.
14 And then just a little bit on the
15 connection with workforce development in
16 regards to new initiatives that you see this
17 year, possibly at different colleges,
18 four-year and two, that you find have helped
19 gap that link, possibly, for the need of
20 workforce within expanding industry.
21 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So over the last
22 year, and one of the successes that we've
23 had -- and again, this is really due to the
24 work of our senior vice chancellor Johanna
81
1 Duncan-Poitier, working with Department of
2 Labor Commissioner Roberta Reardon -- we've
3 garnered about 17 million in support
4 altogether. About half of that is from the
5 state, and half of that is from federal and
6 philanthropic organizations.
7 So these are programs where we're
8 increasing the number of apprenticeships, the
9 number of companies. We now have I think
10 over 300 companies that we're working with in
11 order to give that internship, that
12 apprenticeship. Because what we've found is
13 if a student in business, IT, or the
14 performing arts gets an internship, their
15 starting salary is $26,000 more with IT, it's
16 $9,000 more in business, and it's $13,000, if
17 I are remember that right, for the performing
18 arts. That's phenomenal. That's a very
19 large percentage of their starting salary.
20 So it's -- part of my commitment to
21 individualized learning and education is
22 those applied learning experiences, which is
23 really the hallmark of what SUNY is known
24 for.
82
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BUTTENSCHON: Thank you.
2 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 Senate?
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
6 Senator Gounardes.
7 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Good morning.
8 Thank you. I want to just start off by
9 echoing some of the comments that were made
10 earlier about, you know, the TAP gap funding
11 and how -- you know, maybe we should look to
12 redirect more funds to closing that gap
13 instead of expanding Excelsior.
14 And to Senator Liu's point about, you
15 know, the drop in public support for SUNY,
16 you know, nationwide, since the Great
17 Recession, funding for public education at
18 the higher education level has dropped by
19 $9 billion. And we clearly have not met
20 that -- restored funding to that level across
21 the country, and clearly here in New York as
22 well, and that's very, very concerning.
23 And so I think we absolutely need to
24 be looking to see other ways to increase
83
1 support for both SUNY and CUNY and public
2 funding for that. Because to keep pushing
3 the burden onto students' shoulders is just
4 not tenable.
5 But I do want to kind of revisit the
6 question about mental health that has been
7 talked about a little bit. How many --
8 what's the ratio we have of mental health
9 counselors to students right now across the
10 system?
11 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I'll have to get
12 back to you on that. It's going to be
13 different at different campuses. And of
14 course it's going to vary depending on the
15 size of the campus. So I think that we want
16 to normalize it by the number of students.
17 I think that's one of the reasons why
18 we were pretty excited about the -- and we
19 are pretty excited about the telemedicine
20 mental health program that we had in place,
21 because we had have ten campuses involved
22 with that. And that was being staffed by
23 psychiatrists at Upstate Medical University.
24 And it was very effective, but it got
84
1 oversubscribed pretty quickly. So we're
2 hoping to expand that program, and that's why
3 we're asking to restore some of the funding,
4 or all the funding for the telecounseling
5 program.
6 SENATOR GOUNARDES: That's the
7 $500,000 that was proposed to be cut?
8 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: That's correct,
9 yes.
10 SENATOR GOUNARDES: I think nationwide
11 the average is one counselor for every
12 1200 students. And I think that where we are
13 in New York, I think it's significantly
14 higher than that. According to the numbers
15 I've seen, it was like 2,000 in some cases,
16 you know, systemwide. That's a very, very
17 big discrepancy. And I think we need to do a
18 lot more to address that. Because as you
19 point out, there are a large number of
20 students who need that type of support
21 service.
22 I want to transition a little bit. Do
23 you have a sense of what percentage of our
24 graduates from SUNY end up entering the
85
1 public service workforce or civil workforce,
2 systemwide?
3 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: You know, I
4 don't, off the top of my head, but I'll get
5 you those. We have those numbers. We can
6 get them for you.
7 SENATOR GOUNARDES: And what is SUNY
8 doing to create pathways for its graduates
9 into the public sector, if anything? Do we
10 have programs that currently exist? Are we
11 doing things to recruit students to put them
12 onto these pathways? Can you speak to that a
13 bit?
14 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Sure. I know
15 that obviously the University at Albany has a
16 pretty big pipeline through to the
17 Legislature, and we meet a lot of alums when
18 we go through, you know, and make our visits.
19 So I know that that's one program for sure.
20 We do meet other students, obviously,
21 from some of our other SUNY campuses. But
22 let me get you an inventory and I'll come
23 back to you on that -- both of those
24 questions. One is the number of mental
86
1 health counselors per student, and also what
2 our programs do with regard to public
3 service. Both very important.
4 SENATOR GOUNARDES: And do you have
5 any data as to how many students who have
6 graduated with debt are enrolled in the
7 public service loan forgiveness program?
8 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: No, I don't. But
9 we'll come back to you on that.
10 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Is that data that
11 you think that you might be able to collect
12 in the future or, find a way to get some type
13 of measure of that from your graduates?
14 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN: Let me come back
15 to you. I think that would be a good thing
16 to collect.
17 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Because it's very
18 concerning, you know, with what's happening
19 with this program -- it's obviously a federal
20 program -- that only 3 percent of students
21 who are enrolled and eligible have been
22 granted forgiveness. And so if we have a
23 large number of our own graduates who are
24 not -- who are being screwed by the system,
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1 we should know that and find ways to help
2 address that.
3 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN: Absolutely.
4 Thank you. Great points.
5 SENATOR GOUNARDES: All the questions
6 I have for you. Thank you.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
9 Assemblyman Smith.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Thank you.
11 And thank you, Chancellor. Our
12 students are so lucky to have you, with your
13 great background and your passion for this
14 new job.
15 So the campuses must make up the TAP
16 gap somehow. If the state were to step in
17 and close the TAP gap, I assume that would
18 leave more money to spend on education. What
19 are some of the things that could be done, or
20 what are your thoughts on that?
21 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Right. So it's a
22 good point. So with 82 million -- and that
23 would be distributed throughout all the
24 campuses. So, you know, locally, I mean, you
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1 know, if you divide it by 64, you'd come up
2 with a number that -- but again, it's going
3 to be based on the number of students.
4 So some of the things that you would
5 use it for, if you were at a university
6 center, those funds -- so let me just step
7 back for a minute. Where that money comes
8 from is from tuition and fees. Right? And
9 some probably philanthropy. So if those
10 dollars were relieved, right, as you said,
11 they could go back into the academic mission.
12 So you could do things like more full-time
13 faculty. You could renovate classrooms and
14 have them be more in line with sort of the
15 high-tech classrooms that many of their peer
16 institutions are seeing.
17 You could look at the operations that
18 could maintain some of the new facilities
19 that we desperately need to build for these
20 high-demand courses. You could do curricular
21 development. We looked at -- and I can get
22 you these numbers. We have something like
23 3,000 labs and classrooms throughout SUNY,
24 and many of them need to be renovated. They
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1 need to be wired, they need to be high-tech,
2 there need to be smartboards, they need
3 access to the internet. And we've done an
4 estimate of what that would cost. So that's
5 just to mention a few.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Okay, great --
7 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Also, you know,
8 one of the things that I'm personally
9 invested in and personally passionate about
10 is increasing the support at our
11 comprehensives for their master programs; at
12 our colleges of technologies and at our
13 community colleges, student scholarships and
14 fellowships.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Great. Now, is
16 SUNY going to be pushing for a representative
17 on the Medicaid Redesign Team, or is there
18 any push -- because as you mentioned in your
19 written testimony, that our SUNY
20 hospitals are safety net hospitals and they
21 serve a very important role. So is that
22 going to be -- are you going to be pushing
23 for that or do we know if there's going to be
24 an appointment representing public hospitals?
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1 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I don't know if
2 there is, but we'd be willing to serve. Of
3 course I'm recommending someone back there
4 (gesturing), right.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: I see Bob shaking
6 his head.
7 Now, in terms of the $500,000 cut to
8 the telecounseling, is that something that
9 consistently students mention that they
10 support? I see, you know, some head nods.
11 Is that something that could be made up at
12 all -- you know, obviously I know many of us
13 are going to be advocating to get that
14 funding back in. But any federal funds that
15 you think could be available to help with
16 that? Because I think above the 500,000 -- I
17 think it should be expanded, really, given
18 the need.
19 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Yeah. I think we
20 do need to expand it. We can look for those
21 kinds of programs. I'm not aware of any.
22 But we certainly are -- in fact, one of the
23 things that the SUNY system does is that we
24 focus on trying to garner external support,
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1 both from foundations and philanthropy
2 sources and the federal government, to
3 leverage our scope, size, scale and breadth
4 in order to bring those resources to the
5 state, do pilots, expand those pilots, and
6 then be a leader for the rest of the country.
7 So certainly that's within what we value and
8 what we focus on.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Now, with the
10 Strategic Needs Capital Matching Program,
11 where's that funding coming from? So would
12 it come from a foundation -- you know, if
13 it's not necessarily tuition or -- you know,
14 where would a SUNY campus be expected to --
15 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So we would look
16 at philanthropy, we would look at reserves,
17 we would look at auxiliary services, we would
18 look at synergies and efficiencies.
19 Let me give you an example. We have
20 been reducing our energy use over time. In
21 fact, one of the things that I'm very proud
22 of, and I just want to share all this, is
23 that in 1990 the greenhouse gas emissions
24 from our SUNY campuses were a million metric
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1 tons. Today we've reduced them to 600,000.
2 That's a 40 percent decrease by 2020 --
3 39 percent, I'll be precise -- ahead of the
4 State Energy Plan, that was in 2015, which
5 called for the 40 percent reduction by 2030.
6 We're on track to -- we're right now probably
7 60 percent of our electricity is from
8 renewable sources. We've made a goal that
9 by the end of SUNY at 75, we'll be
10 100 percent from renewable sources.
11 So some of those will create savings,
12 some of those initiatives where we are
13 conserving and not wasting. So it's an
14 entire sustainability program that we're
15 going after. Not printing paper, saving
16 25 million with not printers and toners and
17 paper. You know, that's just one aspect of
18 the kind of savings that we're trying to
19 provide.
20 So, you know, there are many resources
21 that we're going to be pulling and trying to
22 get very conservative so we can afford the
23 new facilities that we need.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Thank you.
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1 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Thank you.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
3 Senator Rachel May.
4 SENATOR MAY: Thank you.
5 Good morning, Commissioner. Nice to
6 see you again.
7 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Good morning.
8 Good to see you too.
9 SENATOR MAY: So this is -- I may
10 sound like a broken record from last year,
11 but because I represent four SUNY campuses
12 and five independent colleges, I'm always
13 concerned about policies that are pitting
14 them against each other. Because they're all
15 important employers in my district, they all
16 serve students in different and unique ways.
17 And so the Excelsior expansion is one
18 that concerns me. I know it concerns a lot
19 of the independent colleges. And especially
20 when the TAP gap is increasing, it just seems
21 like maybe we're putting our resources in the
22 wrong place.
23 So I'm wondering -- there's been an
24 pretty steep decline in the number of
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1 students taking advantage of TAP over the
2 last six or seven years. You look surprised
3 by that, so maybe you can't answer this --
4 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: No, I'm trying to
5 make a note.
6 SENATOR MAY: -- question, but I'm
7 wondering if that's just a demographic shift
8 or if you think that that's because the money
9 just isn't going far enough, it's not worth
10 it to the students or if -- even if SUNY
11 campuses might be turning students down
12 because it costs them more to bring
13 TAP-eligible students in.
14 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: No, I will take
15 it on, the question, so thank you very much.
16 We have 60,000 students at our
17 state-operated campuses that receive TAP,
18 Tuition Assistance Program, and about 40,000
19 are community colleges. So that's -- and
20 then when you add on the 20,000 from
21 Excelsior, that's about 120,000 out of our
22 400 and some thousand. So it's a large --
23 which is great. I mean, a majority of our
24 students are going tuition-free.
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1 So that's extremely important to us
2 because, you know, just think about our
3 founding DNA in 1948. We were founded
4 because higher ed wasn't always open to
5 everyone who wanted to attend. And so as a
6 result, that's really core to our mission.
7 So that's why I was a little surprised. But
8 we'll look at the numbers.
9 We -- our campuses don't turn away
10 people because they're TAP. Absolutely,
11 that's not -- again, that wouldn't be in our
12 DNA either. It does mean, though, that the
13 campuses do provide financial aid to those
14 students. And we're providing something like
15 $229 million of additional support. Some of
16 that is the TAP, of course, which is helpful,
17 but some of that is the -- filling in the TAP
18 gap.
19 So making college affordable is one of
20 my number-one priorities. Making it
21 excellent is the other. They're the yin and
22 yang. You can't really have one without the
23 other, or else you're paying for anything
24 that isn't worth anything. So that's why
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1 it's critically important that we continue
2 to -- and thank you for the support and the
3 Governor for the support for higher ed,
4 including our benefits and our debt service.
5 And also any additional things that we can do
6 will be put to great use.
7 We love working with our private
8 school colleagues as well. And so I think
9 that's one of the things -- in fact, I don't
10 know if you know this, but we have -- part of
11 our sustainability initiative is the
12 large-scale energy purchase, 150,000 megawatt
13 hours. We have 20 campuses, four of which
14 are private, our private colleagues. So
15 there are many different ways that we work
16 with our private colleges and they work with
17 us, so we need to continue to do that and --
18 SENATOR MAY: So -- so let me follow
19 up with a question about that, because I also
20 have two Centers of Excellence in my
21 district, and the Centers of Excellence are
22 facing pretty drastic cuts in this budget.
23 SUNY ESF and Clarkson have a collaboration
24 that they just got approval for last year,
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1 but now they're -- it looks like the way the
2 new definitions are created that that
3 collaboration may be threatened.
4 So I'm wondering if you are -- what
5 you think about what's going on with the
6 Centers of Excellence.
7 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So that's --
8 it's -- I'm glad you raised that, because
9 it's interesting, there was a study that was
10 done in the U.S. -- now, this is going back
11 maybe a decade, but the important thing is
12 that if you look at the places that are
13 thriving, they're characterized by a great
14 public university and a great private
15 university.
16 Think about RTP, you've got Duke and
17 North Carolina. Think about L.A. Think
18 about Berkeley in the Bay Area. All those
19 places are characterized by that partnership
20 between a public and a private university.
21 So I think that whatever we can do to
22 maintain those partnerships is really, really
23 important.
24 I think the other thing with the
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1 Centers of Excellence and the Centers for
2 Advanced Technology -- you know, there is a
3 continuum of R&D development. There's
4 fundamental work that needs to go on -- the
5 kind of work that won Stanley Whittingham the
6 Nobel Prize in Chemistry this last year, to
7 the actual implementation which may preserve
8 civilization as we know it in terms of
9 bringing grid-scale storage to bear, and the
10 continuum in between.
11 We have to support it all, because if
12 you just focus on the development and the
13 implementation, then you have eaten your seed
14 corn for the next generation of technologies
15 that are required, whether it's in drug
16 discovery or in IT or in energy.
17 So I think that we, you know, need to
18 be mindful that we need big R, little D,
19 reasonable size R, reasonable size D, and
20 then big D and little R. And we need it all.
21 We can't ignore any of it. So that would be
22 my comment.
23 SENATOR MAY: Thank you.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
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1 Assemblyman Pichardo.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO: Good morning.
3 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Good morning.
4 How are you?
5 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO: Hi, how's it
6 going, Chancellor? Appreciate your time.
7 To my colleagues, to the respective
8 chairs, thank you for convening this hearing.
9 So I want to add my voice to many of
10 my colleagues who have mentioned the issue of
11 the TAP gap. I'll just sort of use a
12 football analogy -- we just had the
13 Super Bowl this Sunday -- it's like putting
14 up two brand-new goal posts but there's a
15 giant crater in the middle of the field and
16 we're asking our students to play around the
17 crater.
18 So we need to fill that gap, we need
19 to fill that hole, and we need to figure out
20 a better investment than upping the ante with
21 the Excelsior scholarship. I think we need
22 to take care of those high-needs first and
23 then move forward.
24 But the thrust of my question -- I
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1 just want to make sure that this is
2 mentioned, Madam Chancellor -- so there's a
3 $600,000 decrease in the Graduate Diversity
4 Fellowship, there is a $200,000 elimination
5 of the SUNY Hispanic Leadership Institute,
6 there's another $200,000 elimination of the
7 SUNY Institute for Leadership and Diversity
8 Inclusion. And right now I know that you
9 have made strides yourself to create a much
10 more diverse faculty and leadership within
11 the SUNY system. So I don't understand, if
12 we're moving in a better direction, why does
13 the Executive see that it's necessary to cut
14 these programs when we need more support?
15 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Well, thank you
16 for the question.
17 Let me pick up on the first one that
18 you mentioned. And that is something that,
19 you know, obviously I feel very passionate
20 about, and that is the support for our
21 graduate students and specifically our
22 Graduate Diversity Program. You know, we
23 would be grateful to have those resources
24 restored. And one of the reasons why is it's
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1 the same thing as the little R -- I mean, big
2 R to little R and little D to big D. It's --
3 it's -- you need that whole continuum of the
4 pipeline in education.
5 So we're focused on PRODiG and trying
6 to hire and diversify a thousand faculty over
7 the next decade. But where are they going to
8 come from? They're going to come from our
9 graduate ranks. So I'm so proud of our
10 comprehensive colleges, because they got
11 together as a sector and proposed a program
12 by which they would support -- well, working
13 together with us, we would support postdocs
14 and near-terminal-degree-ready graduate
15 students of color, and women in STEM, that
16 then could become the PRODiG faculty of
17 tomorrow. And that's the beautiful thing
18 about taking a 10-year view of this. Our
19 high school students today that we're
20 recruiting to our SUNY schools are the PRODiG
21 faculty of 2030. So having these programs
22 where we can support the graduate students is
23 really, really critical.
24 And, you know, I was a graduate
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1 student. I didn't have other means of
2 support. You know, frankly, in the Bay Area
3 my stipend was less than the rent I had to
4 pay. So I had -- you know, that made it
5 difficult. I had to borrow money. It was a
6 challenging time. So I'm, again, very
7 sensitive. I see these students, I want to
8 increase their money. I want to raise money,
9 philanthropic resources.
10 One of the things that I talked about
11 in my State of the University System and that
12 I'm very passionate about, again, is going
13 back to entrepreneurship: How are we going
14 to attract those students to stay and create
15 the companies here. A lot of times it's the
16 postdocs and the graduate students of our
17 faculty members that want to be close to
18 their mentor, and they start their company
19 close to their university.
20 And so that's the kind of opportunity,
21 if we can give the kind of -- attract the
22 best and the brightest graduate students
23 here, as well as keep our rising seniors
24 thinking about going on to graduate school,
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1 it's that whole continuum that we have to be
2 concerned about.
3 So that's just one piece of the puzzle
4 that you mentioned, and that is supporting
5 our graduate students and particularly the
6 Graduate Diversity Program.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO: I cannot
8 emphasize this enough, that we need to make
9 sure that we continue to support and fund
10 these programs to support the ability for
11 SUNY to continue to diversify. So I know
12 that my colleagues here on both sides of the
13 aisle in the Legislature, that we'll continue
14 to support those programs. But more
15 importantly --
16 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Thank you.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO: You're welcome.
18 -- I just wanted to ask and mention
19 this about the FTE issue. I had a meeting
20 with your equivalents at CUNY, and they
21 mentioned that there is a lack of enrollment
22 on the community college side. So if we
23 maintain flat, it's an effective cut.
24 How exactly are we going to be dealing
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1 with the lack of enrollment if the FTE number
2 stays flat at this point?
3 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Right. So I'm
4 glad you mentioned that, because there's many
5 sides to the enrollment story.
6 One thing just to note is that we
7 report head count. We're going to start
8 reporting also FTE at our state-operated.
9 Our FTE has been flat if not slightly up.
10 It's our community colleges that in FTE are
11 down. Also in head count, right?
12 So what we're going to do about that.
13 First of all, we know the demographics of the
14 State of New York has been declining in the
15 18-to-24-year-old, but we also know that the
16 demographics of the 24-to-44-year-old is
17 increasing. And so that's with our real push
18 behind SUNY Online.
19 So right now there are 40,000 students
20 in the State of New York that are going
21 outside the State of New York for their
22 online education. Well, that's crazy.
23 Especially when we have such outstanding
24 systems like CUNY, like SUNY and our
105
1 privates. We've got to capture that here
2 because we want to keep those students here,
3 thriving, and we also want to serve them.
4 They are ours.
5 So we're going to put a lot of effort
6 into online. And what we found out already,
7 in a little pilot that we ran, is that the
8 majority of those online students are in that
9 demographic of the 24-to-44-year-old. So
10 that's one of our strategies.
11 A second strategy is to be -- really
12 communicate more the value of a higher
13 education degree. We know over the lifetime
14 of someone who has a degree versus someone
15 who doesn't, it's about a million bucks. How
16 many people really know that? How many
17 18-to-22-year-olds or 24-to-44-year-olds
18 really appreciate that? So we have to do a
19 better job.
20 We've started a program which I give a
21 lot of credit to our CFO, Eileen McLoughlin,
22 who's behind me, which is financial
23 literacy -- teaching our students how not
24 only to manage money, but what their loans
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1 mean and how that they can pay them back and
2 manage that.
3 So a lot of this is putting in place
4 the kind of services that will help our
5 students be successful. And that's really
6 what we're passionate about.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO: Thank you.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
9 Senate.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Ken
11 LaValle.
12 SENATOR LaVALLE: Chancellor, I'm
13 going to start with an easy question. This
14 is your what time before this committee?
15 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Third, sir.
16 SENATOR LaVALLE: Third time, good. I
17 want to start with a SUNY hospital question.
18 Is there any operating deficits projected for
19 our hospitals?
20 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So our hospitals,
21 as I put it in the written testimony, provide
22 about 6 billion in economic activity. About
23 2 million patient visits, 1.2 million
24 distinct patients visit. There's Upstate,
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1 Downstate, Stony Brook. The mix of Medicaid
2 and Medicare at Upstate and Downstate is
3 maybe -- I know Downstate is close to
4 80 percent. Upstate is -- I can get the
5 number for you, but it's over 50 percent.
6 And at Stony Brook it's about 50 percent.
7 In terms of operations, I think
8 Stony Brook is operating in the green, and we
9 have some challenges at Downstate and Upstate
10 that we're working on in terms of being more
11 efficient. And a lot of that has to do with
12 the facilities, which is why I'm so excited
13 that the -- in the Governor's budget there's
14 150 million for capital, 50 million for each
15 one of our hospitals. So that was really
16 terrific.
17 And so we're -- but we've got great
18 leaders and we're working with the leaders
19 and we're making great strides. These are
20 very important to the communities they reside
21 in, both as our safety-net hospitals but also
22 as our engines of economic activity.
23 SENATOR LaVALLE: Have you had an
24 opportunity to visit our hospitals?
108
1 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I have, each one
2 of them. In fact, if I could just say one
3 thing, we were just at Downstate last week.
4 And I was -- it was amazing the care that
5 they give. They have about 1200 births a
6 year, Stony Brook has over 4,000, Upstate
7 about 1200 births. To see the care in the
8 infant NICU was amazing. These are little --
9 I mean, the kids would fit in your hands.
10 And the kind of care and dedication of that
11 team was phenomenal.
12 So I can't say enough about the work
13 that our hospitals and faculty and staff are
14 doing. And, you know, it's also important
15 for the entire state. I know you know this,
16 but one out of three nurses, one out of three
17 docs are educated at a SUNY. And one out
18 of -- I think of eight licensed physicians in
19 the state are SUNY, and one out of five
20 dentists are educated in SUNY, and one out of
21 like seven, I think, are a licensed dentist.
22 Actually, no, it's more like one out of
23 eight. So we're really important in terms of
24 the healthcare for all citizens.
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1 SENATOR LaVALLE: I know you've been
2 using a lot of superlatives to describe, you
3 know, the hospitals. And I don't think we
4 spend enough letting the public know what we
5 have and what we do at these great
6 institutions. As a matter of fact, even the
7 campuses we don't really highlight -- because
8 word of mouth is one of the best
9 advertisements. And so anyone who's gone to
10 a SUNY campus is always very proud and lets
11 the world know about their campus.
12 I also had a question that Senator
13 Stavisky had, dealing with our SUNY police.
14 So I just wanted to mention that, because
15 it's important that we continue to attract
16 and maintain people who keep our students
17 safe.
18 Going on to safety. Suicides, number
19 of suicides in 2018-2019?
20 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I can -- I can
21 get you that number. I don't have that off
22 the top of my head. Unfortunately, more than
23 one.
24 SENATOR LaVALLE: I'm sorry, I
110
1 couldn't hear that.
2 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I said
3 unfortunately, more than one. Even one would
4 be too many.
5 SENATOR LaVALLE: You know, I've
6 always -- and to this day -- feel mental
7 health services are critically important.
8 What are we doing to maintain and expand our
9 mental health services?
10 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I couldn't agree
11 more with you. And that's why this fall I
12 established a Mental Health Wellness
13 Task Force led by Dr. Wayne Riley at
14 Downstate and also Dr. Deborah Stanley at
15 SUNY Oswego. So they've been meeting often,
16 and I'll have a set of recommendations in the
17 spring. That's the first thing.
18 The second thing is that we set up the
19 telecounseling mental health network with 10
20 campuses involved. That was very well
21 received and supported by students, so we're
22 hoping that the funding will be restored with
23 that.
24 I will get back to the Senator about
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1 the number of mental healthcare professionals
2 that we have on campus per student, so we'll
3 come back to you with that.
4 SENATOR LaVALLE: Thank you.
5 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: And that will
6 inform what are the resources that we truly
7 need to meet the needs.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
9 Assembly.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Some time ago
11 we were joined by Assemblywoman Griffin, and
12 we go to Assemblywoman Bichotte for some
13 questions.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE: Hello,
15 Chancellor. Thank you for being here.
16 As you know, I'm a proud alum of
17 Buffalo State College and SUNY Buffalo.
18 I had a few questions. First I want
19 to say that I'm really happy to see that some
20 of the programs have been maintained, like
21 CSTEP, HEOP, SEEK. These are programs that
22 we've been fighting every year that's been
23 threatened to be decreased, so I'm happy that
24 they are maintaining their budget.
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1 I do have some concerns with the
2 childcare centers being cut significantly,
3 813,000. Certainly we'd like to know the
4 driving force of that.
5 I do have some questions around TAP.
6 You know, was TAP really having an enrollment
7 problem? It seems as if TAP is being
8 decreased by over 10 percent. And there has
9 been -- has there been a corresponding fall
10 in the numbers of low-income students to
11 warrant this? If anything, we should be
12 increasing the services for the number of
13 low-income students and their opportunities.
14 Can you give specifics on TAP
15 enrollments? Is TAP making itself aware to
16 the population it's supposed to be working
17 with? And all of this cut, again, is
18 addressing -- widening the TAP gap. I
19 thought there was a commitment to narrow the
20 gap.
21 In addition to that, what percentage
22 of the TAP funds that are falling are going
23 to Dreamers? And I'll stop here.
24 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Okay. Well,
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1 thank you very much, and it's good to see you
2 again as well.
3 I'll have to get back to you on some
4 of the specifics on TAP. What I can tell you
5 is that I know we have 100,000 students that
6 are getting TAP. The majority of those are
7 full-time. They're split about 60-40 between
8 state-operated and community college. I
9 don't have the year-on-year number, so I will
10 get back to you on that.
11 We do have a TAP gap of about
12 82 million. And as tuition went up this
13 year, that widened the gap. I think last
14 year it was 60-some million, but the increase
15 in tuition created another gap.
16 So we would like to, you know, start
17 to narrow that gap. So that would be
18 certainly something we would be supportive
19 of.
20 The other questions I'm --
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE: So is the
22 percentage of the TAP funds, the fall, are
23 they going to Dreamers?
24 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Oh. So I don't
114
1 have numbers on the Dreamers. We don't keep
2 that data. So maybe I can find out if it's
3 available, but we tend not to track DACA
4 students.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE: With the
6 enrollment increasing, why is the total of
7 176 FTEs staying the same? Why is that
8 consistent and not increasing as well?
9 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Right. So our
10 enrollment in the state ops has been pretty
11 flat on an FTE basis. I mean, it's slightly,
12 slightly, slightly up. It's really, at the
13 community colleges, been in decline, both in
14 head count and FTE. So that may be one of
15 the reasons there's a change in the TAP
16 students. I'll have to look at it, and I'll
17 definitely get back to you.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE: Okay. I know
19 you were very highly impressed with the
20 progress made in diversity leadership and the
21 target of increasing diversity in our faculty
22 and adjunct professors on the campus.
23 However, you know, I did have some
24 concerns with all of these programs being
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1 cut, these diversity programs being cut.
2 And, you know, let's be honest, it's really a
3 small, tiny amount, so why are we targeting
4 these diversity programs that are servicing
5 our students?
6 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Yeah. I think
7 what I was really thrilled to see in the
8 Governor's budget was the support for EOP and
9 EOC and Attain. So I thought that was just
10 really excellent. And then the decrease in
11 the Graduate Diversity Fellowship is on a
12 base of, you know, 6.6 million, so it was a
13 decrease of 600,000. And we would like to
14 ask to restore that, because I think it's
15 important, again, for that education
16 pipeline, to make sure that all along the way
17 that we increase our diversity.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE: Okay.
19 Speaking of diversity, I also saw that about
20 $1.4 billion is being allocated to SUNY
21 capital programs. What's the percentage of
22 these capital programs going to be
23 MWBE-certified or be dedicated to MWBE
24 vendors?
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1 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Right. So MWBE,
2 we actually exceed the Governor's goal of
3 30 percent. So we will continue to keep our
4 record, you know, really strong in that
5 regard. I think last year -- I'll get you
6 the exact numbers, but it was over 30 percent
7 went to MWBE contractors.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE: Over
9 30 percent?
10 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Yeah. Yes.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
12 Senate?
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 I think I'm the closer, and then it
15 will be Toby Stavisky, second round.
16 So we talked about the fact that the
17 number of students getting TAP is actually
18 going down in SUNY. We talked about the fact
19 that you, like many of us, are a big fan of
20 HEOP, EOP, other programs that are serving
21 exceptionally low income students with family
22 incomes of 15,000 to 21,000 and how valuable
23 a college degree is for exactly this
24 population.
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1 So you have fewer poor students coming
2 to you. Is it because they're not
3 college-ready when they're getting out of our
4 high schools, hence can never even get into
5 the SUNY system?
6 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So if I
7 understand the question, are there students
8 that are not graduating from our high schools
9 college-ready? Is that the question?
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yeah.
11 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Certainly what we
12 see is there are a number of students that
13 need additional support to be college-ready.
14 The good news -- and again, this is
15 something that we've discovered in our pilots
16 and are very pleased with -- is that if you
17 set an expectation for success, students will
18 meet it. You have to provide the resources
19 and the support, and we do do that through
20 the corequisite English and math programs
21 that are being pioneered not just at our
22 community colleges -- although the majority
23 at our community colleges -- but also at our
24 colleges of technologies as well as our
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1 comprehensives and university centers.
2 So I think that we have, through -- we
3 have an umbrella program for student success
4 called SUNY Achieve, and that includes things
5 like corequisite math and English. So it's
6 not remediation, but it's augmentation. This
7 works, and we're going to continue to really
8 focus on it.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So to follow
10 up -- actually, it was on Senator Jackson's
11 concern that because we fail to provide
12 adequate Foundation Aid funding for K-12, our
13 students aren't college-ready when they leave
14 school. Do you actually know whether you're
15 seeing fewer poor students applying, or
16 you're just not letting them in?
17 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Oh, our
18 admission -- well, as you probably know, our
19 community colleges are open enrollment, so
20 all students are going to be admitted. There
21 are admission criteria for the colleges of
22 technology and the comprehensives, but I'll
23 have to get back to you on just where those
24 admissions are.
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1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Mm-hmm. Okay.
2 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: But we have a mix
3 of -- and I think that's the strength of
4 SUNY, is that we have a mix of -- I mean, if
5 you look at the head of the EOC program in
6 Rochester, Roosevelt started as getting his
7 GED at the EOC. And then he got his
8 associate's and then he got his four-year and
9 then he got his E.D. Then he came back and
10 he's now the dean running that program.
11 You can start at SUNY and we will meet
12 you where you are and bring you along.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So looking at the
14 other side of the equation -- and we've had a
15 number of questions there around the
16 Governor's proposed expansion of the
17 Excelsior credit scholarship, so going from
18 125,000 to 150,000 in family income.
19 Do you know currently what percentage
20 of your students fall into the 125 to 150? I
21 don't expect you to know it off the top of
22 your head, so probably get back to us.
23 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: We'll get back to
24 you.
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1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So the questions
2 are what percentage of your students now are
3 in the 125 to 150 population? What
4 percentage of them appear to have trouble
5 finishing school within four years? And
6 what's the average student debt they're
7 carrying when they end SUNY?
8 Because I do think there's been quite
9 a bit of questions about how does the state
10 prioritize those in greatest need. And of
11 course it's both looking at can they get into
12 our schools, can they complete the work of
13 our schools, and what kind of debt they might
14 be carrying.
15 And we know the numbers for -- and the
16 issues for lowest-income, but these would, I
17 assume, fall into some of the higher-income
18 families that are throughout the SUNY system.
19 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: We'll get back to
20 you on that. Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I appreciate
22 that.
23 And then also I know you partly
24 answered this question, but I'm not sure it
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1 was asked directly. Do you agree with the
2 independent colleges that this program
3 specifically will lead to some of the smaller
4 independent liberal arts colleges closing in
5 this state?
6 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I haven't really
7 focused on that, just because I'm -- you
8 know, let's just say I have all I can say
9 grace over at the public sphere. And I don't
10 mean to be flip about that at all, but I
11 really haven't looked at it and I haven't
12 seen the data. But again, we're happy to
13 have a conversation. Let's -- we can put the
14 data out and just see what really is going
15 on.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. Thank you.
17 Assembly.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
19 Assemblyman Stirpe.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN STIRPE: Good morning.
21 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Good morning.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN STIRPE: Thanks for being
23 here and addressing all our questions.
24 I have a question from one of my
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1 colleagues that I'm supposed to carry to you,
2 and it involves the new STEAM regional high
3 school that was approved in Syracuse. And
4 it's sort of been changed a little bit; now
5 it also includes workforce development. And
6 she wants to know how that will affect the
7 Syracuse EOC, which is one block away from
8 that potential new school.
9 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Right. So I
10 think that there's a natural synergy between
11 the EOC -- again, if we look at that
12 pipeline, high school students could go to
13 the EOC, could get particular training around
14 workforce development. Right now they're
15 not -- they're near each other, but they're
16 not collocated, so it would be interesting to
17 see how this evolves. And we'll do whatever
18 we can in support from SUNY to make it
19 successful.
20 I think that that's -- I had a chance
21 in the fall to go up to the central region
22 and sit down and spend time with five of our
23 SUNY presidents as well as the head of
24 economic development in that area, and
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1 learned that there are something like
2 5,000 unfilled skilled jobs.
3 So, you know, I think the exciting
4 thing about what SUNY can do is that you
5 could actually, using machine learning, sit
6 down and say okay, what's the criteria that
7 these jobs are needed, what are the skill
8 sets, what's the skill set of the resumes of
9 the individuals who aspire and want to be in
10 that industry, and then figure out for each
11 particular job what's the skills that are
12 needed and point that individual to a SUNY
13 class, a microcredential, vocational
14 training, EOC or some other program that we
15 can develop and provide. That's what
16 individualized learning is about. That's
17 where we need to focus going forward.
18 So I'm excited about that, and
19 working -- we will work and do whatever we
20 can, as SUNY, to support those efforts.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN STIRPE: Okay. In the
22 beginning of your tenure you came around and
23 visited all the regions and talked about some
24 of your goals. And one of the big ones was
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1 around research dollars, and especially AI.
2 And can you talk about what's happened in the
3 last few years and where some of this
4 research might be going on right now?
5 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Sure.
6 Absolutely. We have seen an increase year
7 over year in our research expenditures by
8 $136 million. And a lot of that is focusing
9 on -- and this is really the great work of
10 Senior Vice Chancellor Grace Wang, who's
11 sitting behind me, and her team and the
12 RF Foundation and our colleagues.
13 So it's really being cognizant about
14 where is the future of the future of work?
15 What's the kind of research and development
16 that our students need to go through in terms
17 of training to be ready to go into those
18 industries? Then what are the -- you know,
19 if you look at where research is going --
20 when I started out a long time ago, it was
21 one professor and a few students working in a
22 lab on your own. Then we evolved into groups
23 where you get -- you know, maybe if you're a
24 chemist you invite a physicist over for
125
1 coffee and maybe work together. Then we had
2 these larger interdisciplinary programs, and
3 I ran one in Colorado which was in optical
4 AI. So it was chemists and physicists and
5 engineers, psychologists, cognitive
6 neuroscientists working together to figure
7 out how could we built smarter, faster,
8 better computers that emulate the
9 organizational properties of the human brain.
10 Right? Well, that's really kind of what AI
11 is today.
12 The problem was when we were doing
13 that 30 years ago, we didn't have the sensors
14 and the computational power because Moore's
15 Law hadn't continued on for 30 years to where
16 we are today, which is sort of done. But
17 wow, you know, a thousand times -- on every
18 single dimension -- better. Now we have the
19 capability to actually design the kind of
20 programs I talked about to do that career
21 matching with the vocation and the avocation
22 of every student.
23 And I have to say just one little
24 quote by Mark Twain {sic} which I think
126
1 brings it all together, "Two Tramps in Mud
2 Time": When you can bring an avocation and a
3 vocation together like two eyes in sight,
4 that's what our goal is. And we have now the
5 capability and the desire to do that.
6 So we started a new center in AI at
7 Stony Brook, we have a center in AI up in
8 Buffalo. Grace Wang, Dr. Wang, is
9 coordinating all the AI activities across all
10 of SUNY. And the way that we're increasing
11 our research expenditures is to be able to
12 develop group multidisciplinary and now
13 convergent research where you're really like
14 a partner in the labs. You get rid of the
15 ego, and you work together for the greater
16 purpose. That's why we're being successful,
17 in my opinion. We'll do 1.7 billion in
18 research expenditures this year. I want to
19 get to 2 billion.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN STIRPE: Great, thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
22 Senate?
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
24 Toby Stavisky to close for the Senate.
127
1 SENATOR STAVISKY: Real quick, let me
2 just follow up with some of the questions.
3 The Higher Ed Committee in the Senate held
4 hearings throughout the state, there were six
5 of them, in the fall. And the students, I
6 must tell you, I think were the stars. And
7 many of them talked about the mental health
8 issues that were discussed here today. And
9 in fact, as you know, the recommended ratio
10 is about one counselor for every thousand
11 students.
12 You said you didn't -- weren't sure of
13 the ratio, but let me ask you if you have any
14 idea of the waiting time. The students spoke
15 about long waits for counseling.
16 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: It's too long.
17 It's too long.
18 SENATOR STAVISKY: One other --
19 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: But I'll quantify
20 that. But I know from talking with some of
21 the students it's too long.
22 SENATOR STAVISKY: And I know you have
23 your task force with two of your experts, and
24 we await what they say.
128
1 One other quick question. What has
2 been the enrollment projection -- what are
3 the enrollment projections for the future for
4 the four-year -- I know a lot depends on the
5 economy, obviously -- but the four-year and
6 the community colleges?
7 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So our four-year
8 colleges are pretty steady. And where we're
9 seeing the decrease is in the community
10 colleges, in part because our economy has
11 been growing, on average, 2 percent a year.
12 We have a very low unemployment rate.
13 So what we are putting in place, three
14 or four -- actually, six different
15 strategies. And this is the great work by
16 our still fairly new provost, Dr. Tod
17 Lauersen.
18 SENATOR STAVISKY: He is, I must tell
19 you, very responsive in many ways.
20 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Terrific.
21 SENATOR STAVISKY: It's appreciated.
22 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So we are looking
23 at many different strategies. One is the
24 individualized learning. So it's the
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1 Re-enroll to Complete, it's the corequisite
2 English and math, it's reducing the cost of
3 our textbooks, it's bringing financial
4 literacy to our students.
5 Then there's the research and
6 innovation and the apprenticeships and
7 internships. I think when you create the
8 opportunity for our students to learn, how to
9 apply what they're learning in the classroom
10 in a real world environment, they get turned
11 on, they get super excited. And then that
12 also helps with completion.
13 And then the emphasis on
14 entrepreneurship, sustainability,
15 partnerships. I mean, this is all part of
16 the ecosystem that we're trying to put
17 together to, you know, create that student
18 success program.
19 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you. And
20 your stability programs have really -- I hope
21 are going to be very successful. Thank you.
22 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Thank you.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
24 Assembly.
130
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
2 Assemblywoman Griffin.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN: Good morning,
4 Chancellor.
5 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Good morning.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN: As a SUNY
7 graduate, I am grateful for the success and
8 continued growth of SUNY. But I do have a
9 couple of questions.
10 I was wondering, are there statistics
11 available to show geographic usage of the
12 Excelsior Scholarship Program?
13 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I'm sure there
14 are. I don't know them off the top of my
15 head.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN: You know, I'd
17 be very interested if we could get a
18 breakdown by Assembly and Senate district,
19 because I think it's important to know. Like
20 in my district, a lot of people can't use it,
21 aren't using it, find there's challenges with
22 it. So it would be important to have those
23 numbers to see the success. You know, are a
24 lot of people using it would mean a lot,
131
1 especially that we're expanding it at this
2 point.
3 My other question is I understand that
4 community colleges are experiencing a massive
5 reduction in enrollment directly related to
6 these Excelsior scholarships. And as a
7 result, you know, they are experiencing
8 various decreases in their funding.
9 So what is being done to address this
10 impact, and how is this underusage impacting
11 taxpayers?
12 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So I mentioned
13 earlier in the testimony, we have about
14 24,000 students between SUNY and CUNY that
15 are attending on Excelsior. It's not clear
16 that there's massive decreases in the
17 community college due to Excelsior, so I
18 think that we really need to look at the data
19 there to see.
20 When you consider that we have about
21 200,000 students attending community college,
22 I'm not sure that the decreases that we're
23 seeing would be attributed to that. I think
24 more what I would say in our community
132
1 colleges, if you plot the decrease in
2 population over the last year, the slope went
3 a little sharper. We're running into a time
4 when the population is experiencing an even
5 bigger decline, and that's borne out by I
6 think in the last maybe four years, we've had
7 a net loss of about a million -- maybe it's a
8 little longer period of time, but just
9 particularly decreasing right now.
10 So what we're doing is we're putting
11 in place a number of different programs in
12 order to recapture those students. Like the
13 one I mentioned, Re-enroll to Complete, which
14 returned 8,000 students who had dropped out.
15 And we got them back before their federal
16 loans came due so that they now can complete
17 their degree and then garner the type of
18 salary that will help them repay.
19 So we're putting together a -- you
20 know, I would say a multiprong -- we have put
21 together a multiprong strategic approach to
22 the enrollment which I think will really help
23 our community colleges.
24 So, you know, when we think about the
133
1 success of Excelsior -- and we'll get the
2 breakout -- if you think about the majority
3 of the students going to community colleges
4 that are on Excelsior are retained at
5 20 percent higher than non-Excelsior, it's
6 working.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN: Right.
8 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Now, I'm not
9 saying that anything is perfect. But I
10 think, you know, it would be good to get the
11 data and to see, you know, are there
12 particular places where it could work better.
13 So we'll do that.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN: Yeah, I know I
15 represent -- a lot of my constituents go to
16 Nassau Community College, which is a very
17 large community college. But they are
18 struggling with their finances as a result.
19 And quickly, I just wanted to echo the
20 comments on the TAP gap. Of course, you
21 know, I'd really love to be able to resolve
22 that because I think our independent and
23 private colleges are very important to every
24 community in New York State. I happen to
134
1 have Molloy College in my community, and I
2 know a lot of constituents use that
3 university.
4 Mental health, I echo the support for
5 much more to be done for mental health for
6 students.
7 And then also the university police
8 officers. I know there's a little bit of a
9 challenge with the attrition rate with the
10 university police officers, and I wondered
11 have you met with the New York State PBA to
12 see what can be done about that attrition
13 rate?
14 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Well, they
15 haven't contacted me, but I would be
16 delighted to meet and to talk about it. But
17 I wasn't aware of any large attrition rate,
18 so.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN: Oh, okay.
20 Yeah, they are -- they report to me that it
21 was a 30 percent attrition rate, so they
22 are -- that's a concern to them, yeah.
23 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Is that from one
24 particular campus or overall? That seems
135
1 high.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN: I believe
3 that's from all.
4 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Thirty percent.
5 Hmm. Okay. Well, we'll look at it.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN: Okay, thank
7 you so much.
8 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: By the way,
9 Nassau Community College, you have a great
10 new president there, so we're really excited
11 about {inaudible} Dr. Williams --
12 (Overtalk.)
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN: Yeah, really
14 great, it seems like he'll be a fantastic
15 proposition. Thank you so much.
16 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: You bet.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
18 Since the Senate doesn't have any more
19 questioners, we go to Alicia Hyndman.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you,
21 Chair Weinstein.
22 Thank you, Chancellor, and thank you
23 to your team. I know you don't do this
24 alone.
136
1 So I am in agreement with my
2 colleagues; I fully support TAP gap. And I
3 have my comments on Excelsior, which most of
4 my colleagues said.
5 I wanted to talk about OER, because
6 you mentioned it in your report. You said
7 over 59 campuses are utilizing it and it's
8 been a savings of about -- or reduced
9 textbook costs of 47 million. Do you have a
10 breakdown per campus?
11 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: We can get that
12 for you.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Okay. So from
14 the research that we've found, a lot of
15 required textbooks that are in or available
16 in OER are from professors that are teaching
17 in SUNY. Are you aware of that? And a lot
18 of the books that they're also using are also
19 recommended by some of their colleagues.
20 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So I can
21 certainly look at that. It's not unusual to
22 have a professor write a textbook, especially
23 when they're a leader in their particular
24 field, and then have the students use it.
137
1 But --
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: I know.
3 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Yeah. But I'll
4 look into it.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Is there a way
6 you can ensure that more resources or more
7 textbooks that are not by college
8 professors are available in OER?
9 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So generally the
10 textbooks that are written for college are
11 written by college professors. But there are
12 other materials that are available that --
13 that's I think one of the things we're trying
14 to put in place with OER that has saved our
15 students 47 million bucks over three years,
16 is equivalent materials, maybe materials that
17 are prepared -- you know, as a former
18 professor myself, I know that I did often
19 prepare my own materials and then provide
20 them to the class, and that's what we see our
21 professors doing as well.
22 There are some times when a particular
23 textbook is sort of, you know, the standard
24 of that particular course. Sometimes it's
138
1 developed by someone at the particular
2 college, sometimes it's at another
3 university. So our goal is to keep cost of
4 textbooks low independent of, you know, who
5 wrote or provided them for our students. And
6 I think that we're making a lot of great
7 headway there, so we'll continue to be
8 vigilant.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: I'm glad
10 New York State is using it, because as a
11 parent of a child who's in college, once
12 everything's paid, the tuition and the
13 housing, then comes the textbooks. And I'm
14 always looking for -- she's always looking
15 for ways to cut down costs.
16 With telehealth, is that occurring
17 now, or is that something that you're looking
18 at doing?
19 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: It is occurring
20 now, and it started a couple of years ago.
21 We are, I believe, in our second year, and
22 we've expanded it to 10 campuses. And it's
23 being run by psychiatrists from our Upstate
24 Medical University, where students at these
139
1 10 campuses can call and make an appointment
2 and then get help.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: How do you
4 know if that's successful? And how many
5 campuses does SUNY have, and you're only
6 using it at 10 right now?
7 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So there's 10,
8 and we're hoping, with -- you know, to
9 restore the funding so that we can look at
10 expanding. So we would love to expand that
11 opportunity for all of our students.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Okay. Thank
13 you.
14 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Thank you.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So we go now to
16 Assemblywoman Simon.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Am I on? This
18 little red light doesn't really light up very
19 well.
20 Thank you, Chair Weinstein and
21 Senator Krueger and Chancellor.
22 I have a couple of questions. You
23 know, I want to sort of just add my voice to
24 the concerns about the TAP gap. It is a
140
1 persistent problem that's only getting worse.
2 And we have to find some way of addressing
3 this issue, and we need somebody -- we need
4 to put our heads together and figure this
5 out.
6 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Right. Right.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: I'm also
8 concerned about the kind of separation
9 that -- we address this issue of the
10 Excelsior Scholarship Program, but we're not
11 addressing the other issues that students
12 face. So, for example, the problem with
13 books, transportation, food insecurity. It's
14 nice that we have food pantries on campus,
15 but we really shouldn't have to have food
16 pantries on campus. We shouldn't be putting
17 our students in a position where they are
18 food-insecure because their tuition is going
19 up.
20 And I think that it's an issue that I
21 think is a big problem in higher education,
22 it's a big problem in New York State. And it
23 seems to me that the way we are addressing
24 the increase in tuition and not addressing
141
1 these other issues that go hand in hand with
2 trying to make our schools more accessible to
3 people who need that education so we can move
4 them forward -- we're kind of just dancing
5 around this.
6 And so I'm curious what, if anything,
7 SUNY is doing to look differently at this
8 situation and come up with a way that perhaps
9 through varied policies we can start tackling
10 this issue on the ground in the way that
11 students are experiencing it.
12 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Yup. Well,
13 absolutely. And we look forward to working
14 with you during the next few months in the
15 legislative session to see about coming up
16 with ways to address this.
17 I think one of the things that we're
18 doing internally is looking at efficiencies
19 of scale. I know I already said it once,
20 maybe I said it twice, but there are ways
21 that we believe, through the print initiative
22 that our CFO is leading, that we can take
23 some costs out of SUNY which then will allow
24 us to put the resources into the academic end
142
1 and the other resources that we need for our
2 students.
3 And that's not an insignificant amount
4 of money we think we can recapture for the
5 campuses. So I think it's, you know, looking
6 at making sure that we don't waste anything,
7 whether it's food, whether it's water,
8 whether it's energy, whether it's our other
9 resources, so that we're great stewards of
10 the taxpayer dollars.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Another question
12 I have is about students with disabilities.
13 There has not been an increase in the
14 per-capita rate that is paid or allocated for
15 students in about 30 years. And clearly the
16 cost of serving students with disabilities is
17 greater.
18 And we are happy that we have more and
19 more students with disabilities taking part
20 in the education in New York State, but we
21 are really undercutting the ability of our
22 SUNY campuses to provide for their needs so
23 that they can graduate and -- because we're
24 just not funding that. And so everything is
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1 on a shoestring. And I'm curious what your
2 office is doing to help think through a way
3 that we can address that issue.
4 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So we do know
5 that we have at least 32,000 students,
6 probably around 32,000 students with
7 disabilities, of which about 22,000 of those
8 are neurodevelopmental, so whether it's ADHD,
9 autism and other issues.
10 So we are working with those students
11 day in and day out to have them become
12 successful. We have resources on our
13 campuses to provide support. In fact, I
14 think we -- we can get you some numbers
15 because recently we looked at what are we
16 spending on and allocating to help all of our
17 students be successful, particularly students
18 with disabilities. So I'll get back to you
19 on that.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Okay. Because
21 it may be staffing issues as well, there's
22 not enough staff to go around.
23 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Yup, it could be.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: That's a big
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1 issue on these campuses, as well as
2 technological advances.
3 And then one other issue I'd like to
4 address is our schools of education, and SUNY
5 has a number of schools of education. And
6 the issues that have been raised with
7 students who need remedial work and the
8 education that we're giving our kids from
9 K-12.
10 (Protestors chanting in background.)
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Okay. And the
12 issues about adequate teacher preparation,
13 that our schools are not teaching our
14 teachers how to teach reading and if
15 scientific ways that we know are the -- that
16 we know are validated. And it seems to me
17 that this all feeds into this problem.
18 And I would like to talk about what it
19 is the SUNY schools are doing in their
20 colleges of education to change that picture.
21 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Okay. And I'll
22 come back to you. I know we have 16 or 17
23 colleges of education. So we can certainly
24 get you the information.
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1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Okay, thank you.
2 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Thank you.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Appreciate it.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
5 We go to Assemblyman Ra.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Good morning,
7 Chancellor.
8 So I just wanted to go back to
9 Excelsior and TAP. How many students have
10 applied to Excelsior last year and how many
11 are receiving awards under Excelsior?
12 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: I think the
13 number in SUNY is 20,000 are receiving
14 awards. I'm not sure how many applied, but I
15 could ask -- {inaudible exchange}.
16 We'll get back to you on that. I know
17 for sure, though, at least 20,000 are at
18 SUNY. Which is a 20 percent raise over the
19 year before.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay. So really my
21 question, then, is when we look at -- I mean,
22 any student that we can help go to school and
23 alleviate, you know, the debt issue and all
24 of that is a good thing. But when we look at
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1 the students impacted by the program, by
2 Excelsior, versus TAP, which we haven't, you
3 know, modernized in years in terms of income
4 levels and everything, I guess my question is
5 if we -- you know, in an ideal world we would
6 fund all of these things. But if we are
7 going to put, you know, a set of resources of
8 whatever it is, doesn't it make more sense to
9 put it towards TAP, which gives those
10 students, you know, the opportunity to go to
11 school, pick where they want to go? And it
12 seemingly, to me, impacts a lot more
13 students.
14 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So we'll come
15 back to you on the numbers and just look at,
16 you know, how many students would be impacted
17 potentially with this change. We'll
18 definitely get back to you. I don't know
19 those numbers right now.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay.
21 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: What I will
22 say -- and again, I know you all know this --
23 our ability for offering students TAP support
24 coming from families with incomes of less
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1 than 80,000, Excelsior -- and I know you know
2 this -- was provided to hit the next tranche.
3 You know, the 80 to the 125. And now the
4 Governor is looking at the 125 to 150. So
5 that is a different segment of the population
6 for sure.
7 I think that with the campuses
8 providing the TAP gap, any relief on that
9 would be very much appreciated and would help
10 the campuses tremendously. So we'll look
11 forward to working with you to see what we
12 can come up with. I think I've heard pretty
13 clearly that's something that would be a good
14 thing for all of us to think about.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: And then just as --
16 and, you know, I don't necessarily expect you
17 to have this information right now, but with
18 following up on the number of applications.
19 If you can provide any information regarding,
20 you know, students that are applying or maybe
21 losing it because they have to drop a class
22 or -- you know, because we know that the
23 stringent requirements of Excelsior have, you
24 know, caused some issues with students. I've
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1 had constituents who I've worked with to try
2 to get hardships and stuff, who have had
3 illnesses that have come up, you know, family
4 situations that are have come up.
5 And I think that, you know, that has
6 been a source of frustration for many who
7 otherwise would qualify and get an award that
8 obviously would be a financial benefit to
9 them and their families but have, for
10 whatever reason, not been able to meet that
11 requirement. I know we have a little more
12 flexibility than we perhaps had initially
13 with this, but I think that's something we
14 need to look at as we're looking at
15 expansions, is making sure that this is
16 available to as many students as possible
17 who, you know, may have something come up,
18 through no fault of their own, that makes
19 them not eligible for those very stringent
20 requirements.
21 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Agreed. Thank
22 you.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
24 We go to our final questioner,
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1 Assemblywoman Glick, for a second round.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you very
3 much.
4 Not to belabor it, but just to make
5 clear, Excelsior is the last dollar. So
6 students who have TAP, Pell, can apply if
7 they can meet those 30 credits a year, and it
8 makes up for the difference. That delta, you
9 know, eats up their Pell so they don't have
10 money for books, transportation and the like.
11 So it is clearly intended, as you say,
12 to hit the higher income bracket, and those
13 are kids who perhaps have sufficient support
14 to ensure that they have family support that
15 makes it easier for them. They may not have
16 to have a job in order to go to school.
17 That's not your -- I know they need to reset
18 the timer -- that -- so I'll just continue.
19 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Yeah, go ahead.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: On the STEM
21 scholarship, we had a bill that got vetoed,
22 because we wanted to make a change. If you
23 have a STEM scholarship, it's like Excelsior,
24 but you have to graduate in the top
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1 10 percent of your class. You don't have
2 that requirement from Excelsior.
3 If you are in that top 10 percent,
4 you're pursuing STEM, we tried and had vetoed
5 the work requirement for the years after in
6 that specific field, because we had students
7 from largely upstate who said they wanted to
8 go home, but they couldn't get a job in that
9 specific field. So it converts to a loan.
10 So what happens is now you're coming
11 from a family that maybe makes $50,000, you
12 worked hard, you got your scholarship, and
13 now you find out that you can't get a job in
14 Malone, so it turns into a loan. And now you
15 have a loan, you don't have the job prospects
16 in your area where you wanted to live, so now
17 you move to Boston, where you can perhaps get
18 a job in the field that you studied.
19 So you're talking about the advisement
20 that helps students make good choices. And
21 it seems to me clearly there have been some
22 students who have made -- you know, they
23 believed our rhetoric that these are the jobs
24 of the future, but the future hasn't arrived
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1 in a lot of places. And so now we have lost
2 a kid who graduated in the top 10 percent,
3 focused on STEM. And somehow we've got other
4 kids who come from families with higher
5 incomes who don't have the same work
6 requirement, and they go home and do flower
7 arrangements with mom and they stay in the
8 state, but they're not necessarily the kids
9 that we were hoping to support.
10 So what is SUNY going to do to make
11 certain that we don't have any more kids
12 talking to their representative, who then
13 talks to me about this problem in terms of
14 matching students with what is actually
15 available should they actually want to return
16 home?
17 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: So I think that
18 one of the things that I'm very, very focused
19 on is increasing the number of
20 internships and apprenticeships for our
21 students so that they don't have to make
22 those choices that you're talking about. And
23 one of the things is -- you know, I always
24 think about Excelsior is one of the tools in
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1 the toolbox. TAP's another one. Pell
2 grants. All -- we need to increase the
3 number of fellowships and scholarships to
4 give a broader set of choices and
5 opportunities for our students, without a
6 doubt.
7 The second thing is I think we are
8 making inroads on using the strength and the
9 quality of our SUNY schools to attract
10 industries that then provide those
11 internships. To give an example, Cree. Cree
12 is going to invest a billion dollars --
13 Empire State Development and the state is
14 going to invest funding as well to attract
15 them -- to put a major silicon carbide fab
16 next to SUNY Poly in Utica that will create
17 600-some careers -- not just jobs, but
18 careers, a lot of overnight jobs. But
19 they're already hiring our students for those
20 summer internship programs.
21 So I think it's that marrying of the
22 opportunity for our companies that need a
23 talented workforce and skilled workforce to
24 meet with our campuses, develop the kind of
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1 curricula and programs, create those summer
2 opportunity programs.
3 And so one of the things that we're
4 going to do is invest in a position where we
5 actually really help Senior Vice Chancellor
6 Johanna Duncan-Poitier and Senior Vice
7 Chancellor Grace Wang go out and develop more
8 of those kind of partnerships. I mean,
9 that's really what it's going to take.
10 And we've been successful at doing
11 that. We have many of these companies. We
12 just need another order of magnitude and
13 scale. So we need to put some more resources
14 into it, and that's what we're going to do.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: For the cost of
16 accommodation, what is the need, do you
17 think, for students who have disabilities,
18 especially if we're going -- you know, we
19 have a lot of outreach to veterans and stuff,
20 and there's a range of accommodations that
21 are needed. And I've been to some schools
22 where they say they just have to do some
23 really basic things like widen areas so that
24 people in wheelchairs can get through.
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1 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Sure, yeah. You
2 know, I can come back to you on the number of
3 projects that we're doing throughout SUNY. I
4 do know we have 32,000 students that are
5 coming to SUNY, which I'm so proud of that we
6 have this opportunity for all students to be
7 successful here. We can break it down by
8 campus and we can look at the kind of
9 projects and investment that we're doing to
10 accommodate.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: That's very
12 helpful. Thank you so much, and thank you
13 for your very responsive answers.
14 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Thank you very
15 much.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So, Chancellor,
17 thank you so much for being here. We look
18 forward to having some of the follow-up
19 answers that members have asked for. And
20 look forward to continuing to work with you
21 as we go forward. Thank you so much.
22 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: And I with you.
23 Thank you all very much. Thanks so
24 much for your interest and for your support.
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1 It means the world to us. As I said when I
2 started, we got momentum.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: And for your
4 endurance.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
6 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON: Thank you all.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So next we'll
8 have Felix Rodriguez, the chancellor of the
9 City University of New York. We'll just give
10 people a couple of moments to stretch their
11 legs and leave as we wait for the chancellor.
12 (Pause.)
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: If we can
14 settle down. And the people who are leaving,
15 if you could leave, because the voices carry.
16 So, Chancellor, feel free to begin.
17 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Thank you.
18 Good morning, buenos dias, Chairs
19 Krueger, Weinstein, Stavisky and Glick and
20 members of the Senate Finance, Assembly Ways
21 and Means and the Senate and Assembly Higher
22 Education Committees, staff and guests. My
23 name is Felix Matos Rodriguez, chancellor of
24 the City University of New York.
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1 I am joined this morning by Executive
2 Vice Chancellor and University Provost Jose
3 Luis Cruz, and Senior Vice Chancellor and our
4 Chief Financial Officer Matthew Sapienza.
5 I am now in my tenth month as
6 chancellor, so this is my first appearance to
7 provide testimony before this body. For
8 those of you who do not know me, I am a
9 historian by training and started my CUNY
10 career 20 years ago as a professor at Hunter
11 College and director of its Center for Puerto
12 Rican Studies. I later served for five years
13 as the president of Hostos Community College
14 and then five years as president of
15 Queens College.
16 After two decades in a variety of
17 roles on several CUNY campuses, I am honored
18 to oversee the premier and largest urban
19 public university in the United States,
20 serving half a million students, 20,000
21 faculty and 25,000 staff at our 11 four-year
22 colleges, seven community colleges, and seven
23 graduate and professional schools.
24 On behalf of the entire CUNY
157
1 community, I want to thank Governor Cuomo,
2 the State Senate, and the State Assembly for
3 your past support, which has enabled CUNY to
4 deliver strong results for our students and
5 the citizens of New York.
6 I am pleased to share with you some of
7 our important recent achievements and to
8 outline our priorities, plans and goals for
9 the coming fiscal year and beyond.
10 In my first year as chancellor, I have
11 built an exceptional leadership team of
12 experienced and diverse professionals who
13 mirror the students and the city we serve.
14 In addition to the two members of my
15 leadership team sitting here, let me
16 introduce you to two other members who are
17 here today. Sitting in the audience are
18 Executive Vice Chancellor and Chief Operating
19 Officer Hector Batista, and Senior Vice
20 Chancellor and Special Counsel Glenda Grace.
21 My administration will also have the
22 rare opportunity to shape the future of CUNY
23 leadership for years to come. We have nine
24 presidential vacancies, and yesterday I named
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1 the first of those nine: The Board of
2 Trustees approved a new president for Baruch
3 College, Dr. David Wu, currently the provost
4 and executive vice president of George Mason
5 University. Dr. Wu is an accomplished
6 scholar who makes history by becoming the
7 first Asian-American president of a CUNY
8 school. I expect to make about half a dozen
9 presidential appointments this year.
10 At a time of growing inequality, CUNY
11 has become a national leader in promoting
12 upward social and economic mobility. In
13 2019, six CUNY colleges placed in the top 25
14 nationally on collegeNET's 2019 Social
15 Mobility Index, with Baruch College ranking
16 number one for a fifth straight year. CUNY
17 also dominated both the Forbes and Wall
18 Street Journal's "best-value" college
19 rankings.
20 Our history of delivering
21 high-quality, affordable education and
22 promoting social mobility help explain why
23 freshman enrollment rose 3 percent this past
24 fall, countering the national trend. It was
159
1 part of a 17 percent increase since 2010 -- a
2 decade in which freshman enrollment for both
3 public and private universities nationwide
4 remained largely flat.
5 Also in my first year we made a vital
6 investment in the future with our historic
7 agreement with our largest union, the
8 Professional Staff Congress, which provided
9 well-earned increases for our faculty and,
10 perhaps most notably, reaffirmed the
11 importance of adjunct faculty -- not only
12 with substantial pay increases, but with
13 provisions that advanced our efforts to
14 further integrate them into academic and
15 campus life. With these advances, we are
16 blazing a trail for higher education
17 nationwide.
18 We have also started to identify key
19 priority areas that establish a foundation
20 for a bold vision for CUNY over the next
21 10 years. We will be laying out our ideas in
22 the coming year with input from all our
23 stakeholders. But even before then, we will
24 get a head start with moves that increase our
160
1 focus on pedagogy and improve the craft of
2 teaching, and others that expand
3 career-engagement initiatives so that CUNY
4 students have the same opportunities for
5 internships and career paths that young
6 people from more affluent families have.
7 We are pleased that the Governor's
8 Executive Budget includes an increase of
9 $24.3 million in funding for employee fringe
10 benefits and continues current-year funding
11 levels for our critical Opportunity Programs,
12 SEEK and College Discovery. The budget
13 proposal also continues to include $4 million
14 for Open Educational Resources, which is
15 funding that we have leveraged to
16 significantly reduce the costs of textbooks
17 for our students. Our students saved
18 $49 million in textbook costs from 2017 to
19 2019, which amounts to students saving $7 for
20 every $1 invested by the State of New York.
21 We are also grateful that the
22 Executive Budget proposes to raise the
23 income-eligibility cap for the Excelsior
24 Scholarship and that it would make more
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1 community college students eligible for
2 Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program
3 benefits, or SNAP. The Governor's budget
4 moves us closer to a future in which quality
5 higher education is accessible to all low-
6 and middle-income New Yorkers at no cost, and
7 we thank him for his leadership.
8 For our community colleges, we are
9 very thankful that the Legislature has
10 supported base aid increases in recent budget
11 cycles. The university seeks your help in
12 this again.
13 Now I would like to take a few minutes
14 to address tuition. The capacity to adapt
15 and plan ahead is critical to effective
16 leadership, and we welcome the flexibility
17 that the Governor's proposal to extend the
18 Predictable Tuition Policy through 2025 gives
19 us. The current proposed tuition increase of
20 $100 per semester would generate $36 million
21 for the senior colleges for the next fiscal
22 year.
23 Students who are in the most need will
24 have any additional out-of-pocket tuition
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1 costs significantly defrayed or covered
2 completely by New York State's generous
3 financial aid programs -- TAP, Excelsior,
4 SEEK, College Discovery, and the Peralta
5 DREAM Act -- along with federal Pell grants.
6 We are proud of our affordability and
7 the value that we are able to offer our
8 students. Two out of three CUNY
9 undergraduates do not pay for tuition out of
10 pocket, and three of four of our graduates
11 leave debt-free. As such, even with the
12 proposed adjustments, CUNY's tuition will
13 remain of high value, even as it will
14 continue to be much lower than any other
15 university systems throughout the country.
16 As I mentioned, CUNY has earned high
17 regard as a national model in promoting
18 social and economic mobility. For it to
19 remain so in a rapidly changing world, the
20 university must maintain our ability to
21 innovate and serve our core mission. With
22 the continued support of the Governor and
23 you, I am confident that we can do so.
24 Regarding the university's capital
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1 program, we appreciate the Governor's
2 Executive Budget commitment to CUNY's
3 infrastructure needs, including its
4 $284 million investment in critical
5 maintenance for senior colleges and the
6 $64 million in matching funds for community
7 colleges. These will continue to make a
8 significant difference in upgrades and
9 replacements for aging, mission-critical
10 elements of these buildings.
11 We are excited by the opportunities
12 offered by Governor Cuomo's proposal for a
13 two-to-one capital matching program, which
14 offers a unique opportunity for our senior
15 colleges to leverage private funds to
16 generate state support for new building
17 initiatives.
18 We have always been at the forefront
19 of integrating sustainability and energy
20 efficiency into our campus operations, our
21 curriculum and our research. That is why
22 CUNY is currently investing over $340 million
23 in dozens of energy performance capital
24 projects on its campuses that will
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1 significantly reduce emissions. But we have
2 a challenge with our aged building stock,
3 which includes 300 buildings, totaling
4 29 million square feet. They range in age
5 from one year old to over 100 years old, with
6 the average building age exceeding 50 years.
7 That is why, over the past 10 years, CUNY has
8 focused on retro-commissioning a process to
9 improve the efficiency of an existing
10 building's equipment and systems.
11 Looking to the future, CUNY continues
12 its focus on leveraging its capital funds in
13 the upcoming five-year capital plan for
14 projects that will reduce CUNY's carbon
15 footprint and energy consumption. CUNY's
16 capital program and initiatives reflect the
17 university's commitment to sustainable
18 technology and energy efficiency, including
19 CUNY's commitment to develop a plan to meet
20 the Climate Leadership and Community
21 Protection Act goals.
22 CUNY is an unparalleled resource for
23 the state and the city. The increasing
24 investments that our funding partners have
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1 made over the past few years have paid
2 undeniable dividends. CUNY is finding new
3 ways to help more students succeed
4 academically, earn their degrees on time, and
5 acquire the skills they need to build
6 successful careers and fulfilling lives.
7 There is also no question about the powerful
8 impact that a dynamic CUNY has on all our
9 citizens. Now is the time we need to be an
10 even better and bolder university, and we ask
11 for your continued support in that
12 aspiration.
13 That concludes my testimony, and I'll
14 be very happy to answer your questions.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So thank you.
16 We're going to go to Deborah Glick, our
17 Higher Ed chair.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: It's great to
19 see you, Chancellor.
20 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Good to see you
21 too.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you for
23 being here, and thank you for your testimony,
24 which covered a number of areas.
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1 In the capital, obviously you have a
2 lot of owned space but also leased space, and
3 I'm wondering, considering the money that has
4 been allocated, what's your backlog, how long
5 do you think it will take, how many years of
6 providing this level of resources, for you to
7 bring the campuses up to where you would like
8 them to be? So it's nice that we've done
9 this, hopefully we could add more. What is
10 the trajectory for capital needs at CUNY,
11 both the critical maintenance and really any
12 new builds?
13 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So thank you so
14 much for your question, and you know, thank
15 you also for your leadership in the Higher Ed
16 Committee. And always, you know, proud to be
17 talking to a Queens College alum, and bring
18 you greetings on behalf of the 663 CUNY
19 students who live in your district and are
20 happy for your leadership.
21 We believe that the $284 million
22 provided in critical maintenance is about the
23 same amount that we received last year, and
24 it's a great step in moving to sort of build
167
1 up our critical infrastructure needs. I'll
2 be happy to provide you -- because I think
3 it's something that is in the five-year
4 capital budget request that we put together,
5 we have the actual number of what, you know,
6 what that capped critical maintenance need
7 is, so I can provide that to your office
8 later.
9 One of the things that we've been
10 exploring too is also the capacity to be able
11 to spend all those dollars in an efficient
12 way too, so that we can -- when we receive
13 funding from the state for capital, that we
14 can move quickly on the projects and get to
15 them.
16 So I'll be happy to provide you --
17 because we have quantified that number of
18 sort of what it will take to be in a state of
19 good repair, and I can provide that number to
20 your office.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: And include in
22 that if there are additional specific areas
23 that have to do with accommodations for
24 students with disabilities. CUNY has been a
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1 very open door, but sometimes the door isn't
2 wide enough.
3 So we'd like to know what additional
4 specific dollars are needed for -- whether
5 it's technological upgrades for kids with
6 either hearing impairment or visual
7 impairment. So we understand that what you
8 do for one cohort doesn't necessarily meet
9 the need for others, so we would very much
10 like to --
11 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: We'd be
12 delighted to do that.
13 And in my previous life I -- for
14 example, at Queens College I can tell you how
15 important some projects that would seem
16 fairly basic to some others -- about sort of
17 making sure that our bathrooms are
18 ADA-compliant, small other things like making
19 sure that the ramps on the sidewalks are done
20 in the right way so that students with
21 disabilities that have to use their wheel
22 equipment can move forward.
23 We know how much that means to really
24 create an accessible campus, so we're doing
169
1 work all across our campuses to do that.
2 We'll be happy to quantify that. And we also
3 know how critical that is.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Obviously the
5 ASAP program has been a model across the
6 country, and we have to fight for it all the
7 time. There's always a cut.
8 So perhaps you could provide the
9 committee with how many students have moved
10 through ASAP over whatever particular period
11 of time, how many are currently enrolled, how
12 many have graduated, how many have moved on
13 to a four-year school. We want to make the
14 case that this is a model that should be
15 replicated. I know a lot of the other
16 schools, some of the private schools, see
17 that and say, That's the kind of thing we
18 need to do to get some of our at-risk
19 students over the finish line. So that would
20 be very helpful.
21 You had some specific details on how
22 many -- what you're doing around the
23 sustainability. And again, when you're
24 talking about you're investing 340 million --
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1 and I assume that a lot of that is
2 energy-efficiency either in lighting,
3 weatherization, that sort of thing -- it
4 would be helpful for us to have a clearer
5 understanding of where you've spent the money
6 and how much more in that particular arena
7 you need to go to meet your goal for having
8 sustainable campuses.
9 Because to some extent fixing up
10 science labs, which may be a very big part of
11 your capital plan, is not the same as making
12 certain that you don't have drafty windows
13 everywhere where you're losing out on both
14 air-conditioning or heating or whatever. So
15 that would be helpful to understand where you
16 are in that goal.
17 And you also talked about the faculty.
18 We're always interested in knowing the
19 percentage of full-time faculty to adjuncts
20 and to graduate assistants. So do you have
21 any of that information available now, where
22 you are in terms of your percentage of
23 full-time faculty to adjuncts?
24 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So yes, we --
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1 systemwide, the number of full-time faculty
2 is a little under 40 percent, and the number
3 of adjuncts is a little higher than 60: I
4 think like 39-61.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Do you have a
6 large number of graduate teaching assistants?
7 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Yes, we do. I
8 mean, I don't have the exact number of those;
9 we can provide that to your office.
10 And again, the issue of the adjuncts
11 that you bring -- actually, on your first
12 question of ASAP, I do have at least some --
13 three out of four of your questions, I know
14 the answers. So we have about 25,000
15 currently, students on ASAP. They're about
16 38 percent of our entire community college
17 enrollment. So a very robust part of our
18 community colleges are benefiting from ASAP.
19 We have graduated about 58,000 students from
20 ASAP over the duration of the program.
21 The data that you requested on their,
22 you know, graduation and where they're going,
23 that I don't have recorded to memory so we
24 can clearly provide that.
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1 We have been investing in leveraging
2 resources. For example, we have a
3 million-dollar grant from the Bank of
4 New York Mellon to provide transfer
5 scholarships for ASAP students, sort of
6 continuing the success of those students that
7 have successfully moved through ASAP, and
8 they're able to go to one of our four-year
9 institutions.
10 As you know, ASAP has doubled the
11 graduation rate of students who are
12 comparable from a three-year graduation rate
13 of 53 percent for the ASAP students and
14 25 percent for comparable students over that.
15 So it's been an incredibly successful
16 program. We are actually providing technical
17 assistance to several states, there are about
18 seven states that are replicating ASAP-like
19 programs, and CUNY is their technical
20 assistance partner. Three community colleges
21 in Ohio just got a grant to do that. And we
22 continue to learn from our ASAP program to
23 see what parts of that are things that we can
24 replicate with other student groups.
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1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: A lot of
2 colleges are facing pretty wholesale
3 retirement age for an awful lot of faculty.
4 Being in New York City, you may have a better
5 record on diversity than perhaps SUNY, which
6 is far-flung. But where are you in terms of
7 a diverse faculty?
8 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So there's --
9 there's two ways to address that. One is
10 that our numbers compare extremely favorably
11 to universities all over the nation. I mean,
12 we have an extremely diverse faculty, and we
13 can provide the exact numbers and the
14 breakdown by groups -- I know I have that in
15 a table here someplace.
16 But we have a higher responsibility
17 precisely because we serve New York City, and
18 we're not where we need to be. So we need to
19 have faculty, students -- I mean, we do have
20 faculty and staff that look like the students
21 that we have in the classroom. We need
22 administrators that can do that too. The
23 great thing is that we'd be making a
24 significant investment systemwide in that.
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1 And in the last five years, the
2 numbers of new faculty that we hire, which is
3 the key engine that's going to get that
4 percentage higher, has increased by over
5 50 percent. So in the last five years, a
6 vast majority of our hires have been coming
7 from underrepresented groups, and so that's
8 continued to move the dial. And we're very
9 proud of the work that our college presidents
10 have been doing in that front.
11 On that question, that is why I also
12 began my testimony making reference to the
13 importance of having a diverse team. If I'm
14 going to be holding presidents accountable,
15 if I'm going to be talking to the system
16 about hiring more diverse faculty and staff,
17 the team that's around me has to represent
18 that diversity. The presidents in the system
19 have to represent that diversity. And I'm
20 very proud of the record that we have built
21 so far in getting individuals of great
22 credentials to join the administrative team,
23 and I think that sets the tone for the rest
24 of the system.
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1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you very
3 much.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
5 We go to the Senate now.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
7 Higher Ed Chair Toby Stavisky.
8 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
9 Welcome back.
10 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Great to see
11 you.
12 SENATOR STAVISKY: Good to see you,
13 and thank you for mentioning Queens College.
14 (Laughter.)
15 SENATOR STAVISKY: First of all, you
16 indicated you would provide follow-up
17 information to the Assembly, and I ask that
18 you send a copy to the Senate also, because
19 some of those issues are issues that I was
20 going to bring up.
21 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Absolutely.
22 SENATOR STAVISKY: Real quick,
23 remediation. Because I'm -- I know the
24 numbers are getting better, but I don't think
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1 we're there yet. What are the percentages or
2 the costs of remediation, both at the
3 four-year and two-year colleges?
4 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So remediation
5 is a very, very important topic and there's
6 been a significant investment in CUNY to move
7 away from remedial courses and more to
8 co-curricular courses, which is where the
9 field indicates is the better approach to get
10 students up to speed more quickly and
11 actually allow them to go into regular
12 courses in a timely fashion and spend less of
13 their financial aid with remedial courses.
14 We can provide you details on the
15 numbers in each of our community colleges,
16 and we're very proud of the progress that we
17 have made in moving from remedial courses to
18 co-curricular courses. We are hoping that in
19 the near future we can be in a place where
20 all of our formerly remedial courses are done
21 in a co-curricular way. So we're talking to
22 our community college presidents. And I have
23 some experience, having served as the
24 president at Hostos Community College, about
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1 how important it is to do that in a timely
2 fashion, so we can provide you those figures.
3 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
4 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: I'm also very
5 proud of our partnerships with the DOE.
6 We just began a pilot program, it's
7 CUNY On Track, with funding from the Carnegie
8 Endowment, and that is a way to see if we can
9 use some of the lessons that we have learned
10 with some of the programs like CUNY Start,
11 Math Start, that we have shown that they're
12 very good at remedial, can we start with our
13 schools in 10th grade, in 11th grade, letting
14 the students know whether they're on track or
15 not -- and then, if they're not, do some
16 interventions, in partnership with the DOE,
17 that would get them to be college-ready by
18 the time they graduate, meaning there would
19 be less remediation when they get to us. So
20 we're very excited about those partnerships
21 with the DOE.
22 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you. Yes,
23 I've always felt that this should not be a
24 cost on CUNY but on DOE.
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1 You mentioned the Governor's 24 or
2 $25 million allocation for the maintenance of
3 effort to fund the contract, et cetera. But
4 there are additional costs mandated through
5 the contract and not funded. How do you
6 propose to fund all of those other costs?
7 Traditionally we've done it in an MOE bill or
8 a pay bill, as we used to call it.
9 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So thank you
10 for your question, and let me begin by saying
11 how important it was for me and how proud I
12 was to be able to work with our partners in
13 the Professional Staff Congress early on in
14 my tenure to get that contract done.
15 SENATOR STAVISKY: Good.
16 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: I mean, we have
17 now, you know, five years of stability on the
18 labor front. I believe that we have also all
19 of the other contracts with the rest of our
20 labor unions also ratified, so I'm very, very
21 proud of that track record. I think it was
22 an important signal to our adjuncts to show
23 that we value them, and to be able to
24 compensate them in a fairer way.
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1 We included the cost for the contract
2 in our budget request, and we look forward to
3 working with you all throughout this
4 legislative session to be able to sort of
5 meet all those needs.
6 SENATOR STAVISKY: You discussed the
7 ASAP program, which I think is -- it's got
8 the funding, the additional 2.5 million, I
9 think -- the funding has to be found, whether
10 it's with the city or with the state.
11 But there are other programs -- the
12 childcare, the College for Labor and Urban
13 Studies, CUNY LEADS, there were other costs.
14 How do you propose to take up the gap that's
15 caused by these program -- the budget cuts?
16 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Thank you for
17 that question and bringing those very
18 important issues to bear.
19 On the issue of childcare, as those of
20 you who are in the -- who are part of the
21 hearing and know me, very dear to my heart.
22 As a former commissioner of family service
23 for the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, I was in
24 charge of certifying childcare and day
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1 centers in Puerto Rico and made it my habit
2 then, as commissioner, and at Hostos in our
3 childcare center, and at Queens, to go read
4 and visit and spend time, because I know how
5 important that is for our students to be able
6 to know that their children are taken care of
7 so they can study.
8 I know that now I need to find a place
9 where I can go read because, you know, the
10 child center offices have a daycare, I have
11 to visit some of the campuses to do that. So
12 we look forward to working with all of you to
13 be able to restore those vital funds.
14 We're also looking into other
15 partnerships so that we can expand the work
16 that we do around the issue of childcare. I
17 am part of an Aspen Institute group that
18 works on two-generational strategies to
19 combat poverty. So we're looking into some
20 funding to be able to be creative to work in
21 our centers and also with our students who
22 are parents.
23 SENATOR STAVISKY: We touched upon the
24 capital, the 200 million for CUNY, the
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1 capital two-for-one match. Which means that
2 you're going to have to raise the $1 million.
3 And you and I discussed that briefly prior to
4 this hearing, because I certainly don't want
5 to see that go unmatched, so to speak.
6 How do you propose to raise -- that's
7 a lot of money for the -- raising that
8 $1 million match for the construction. And I
9 must say I think it's extremely critical
10 because so many of the buildings at CUNY,
11 they were built 50, 60, 70 years ago, and
12 critical maintenance is not sufficient. You
13 need some shovels in the ground, and you need
14 some new construction. How are you going to
15 do this?
16 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So thank you
17 for your question. And I know the interest
18 in capital funding for CUNY has been an
19 interest of you historically, so you've been
20 a partner with us in advocating for those
21 resources.
22 I believe that the Governor's proposed
23 two-for-one program presents a great
24 opportunity for us at CUNY. First, we've
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1 been able -- now we'd be able to go to donors
2 that would have an incentive to support some
3 because they know their dollars are going to
4 go a longer term, right? We didn't have that
5 incentive before when we go out there talking
6 to potential donors about that. Donors like
7 to donate to capital. They like to have
8 buildings and rooms and spaces named after
9 them.
10 So I think that the combination of
11 that, the philanthropic spirit that combines
12 many of our alumni that have been supportive
13 of the work that we do at CUNY -- and now we
14 have an added incentive to be able to do
15 that. We look forward to working with all of
16 you and with the Executive in creating the
17 most flexible terms for that matching program
18 so that we have the utmost flexibility, and
19 concur with you that the capital needs are
20 really critical.
21 As I mentioned to you, our enrollment
22 has increased significantly in the last
23 decade. Our campuses are anchor institutions
24 in all those communities, so it's not just
183
1 that they're used for classroom space, but
2 they're used for outside community groups
3 that use our space that convene there. Many
4 of the elected officials also, you know, use
5 our facilities for town halls and things like
6 that. So those buildings take an extra
7 beating, so they need to be repaired. So I
8 would look forward to working with you on
9 that.
10 But we think that the two-for-one
11 presents a great opportunity to tap into
12 resources that now would now be motivated to
13 give.
14 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
15 At the December hearing at
16 250 Broadway, the students spoke very
17 graphically about the crumbling
18 infrastructure. They spoke about how they
19 learn -- classes were being held in trailers
20 and all sorts of situations. And I sent you
21 the material, and I appreciate your response.
22 But I emphasize that these students should
23 not have to try to study under very trying --
24 it's hard enough if they are -- have food
184
1 insecurity, housing insecurity, and then come
2 to school and don't have a decent classroom.
3 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: I couldn't
4 agree more with you, Senator. Thank you.
5 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
7 Assembly.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
9 Assemblyman Epstein.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Chancellor,
11 thank you for being here. I really
12 appreciate all your dedication.
13 So just -- are you happy with the
14 state funding the Governor has proposed for
15 CUNY?
16 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So thank you
17 for your question, and great to see you
18 again.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: You too.
20 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: And I bring you
21 greetings on behalf of the 1,690 CUNY
22 students that are in your district.
23 (Laughter.)
24 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So thank you
185
1 for your support and representing them well.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you.
3 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: The budget
4 provides some exciting opportunities for us.
5 The -- the funds for the Opportunity Programs
6 is very, very dear to my heart, and I've seen
7 at the campuses how important the SEEK
8 program, for example, is to so many of our
9 students and opening the door --
10 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Chancellor, I'm
11 sorry, I only get five minutes --
12 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Okay.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: -- so I don't --
14 so you think it's fine, it's adequate, is
15 that what you're saying?
16 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: We're excited
17 and we look forward to working with all of
18 you here to continue to find additional
19 resources.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Because, as you
21 know, Baruch is in my district -- and thank
22 you for the appointment, I look forward to
23 working with him in this stark moment that we
24 have.
186
1 But I go to the buildings and, like we
2 hear, crumbling infrastructure, students who
3 are telling us they won't eat today, right?
4 Students are saying, I can't afford to either
5 pay the books fee or the mental health
6 services fee. And when they are now paying a
7 new fee, they don't even have access to real
8 mental health services. So the waiting list
9 is forever, and people who have serious
10 mental health needs are being unmet.
11 So I want to know, really, can we rely
12 on you to come push for real funding?
13 Because students really need additional funds
14 to be able to have a high-quality education.
15 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So again, thank
16 you for the question and for your commitment.
17 I look forward to introducing you to
18 President Wu at the appropriate time. I
19 think that I'm very proud of that first
20 appointment and I'm sure he's going to do
21 great things for Baruch and take it to the
22 next level.
23 We have been working very, very hard
24 in making sure that many of those needs that
187
1 you identified are met throughout the system.
2 If you look at programs that help students
3 with their transportation costs, right, in
4 ASAP those 25,000 students all get free
5 MetroCards.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: But -- but
7 the -- I do appreciate that. But the kids
8 outside of ASAP and the kids who we hear
9 from, from the part-timers, right. You know,
10 I -- I -- I don't want to make it -- I
11 appreciate a rosy picture, but it's not what
12 we're hearing from students or from faculty.
13 We're hearing the opposite story.
14 So is there something that we're
15 missing here where the students and the
16 faculty are saying "We're struggling" and
17 you're providing a real rosy approach to it?
18 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: I -- I -- I --
19 I wouldn't necessarily characterize my
20 approach as rosy. I'm just telling you all
21 the efforts that we're doing in the different
22 fronts, on transportation, on the cost of
23 books. I mean, the Open -- the funding, as I
24 mentioned to you, $48 million saved on
188
1 students' -- on books, that's about $100 per
2 student in the past two years. That
3 investment from you all, it goes to allowing
4 students to free up that money to do other
5 things.
6 On the food insecurity front, we are
7 fighting that on a number of fronts. We have
8 an initiative, a pilot program that we're
9 doing with the City Council that provides a
10 thousand students with vouchers of $400 per
11 semester to address food insecurity.
12 The work that we've been doing in
13 making food pantries available, we have
14 funding from the Petrie Foundation for the
15 food pantries. We have funding from the
16 Petrie Foundation to explore more ways to
17 support the students.
18 One thing that in our budget request,
19 when it put the category of more resources
20 into wellness, we want folks on our campus --
21 we have data that 70 percent of our students
22 who are eligible for SNAP might not be
23 seeking that benefit. We need additional
24 staff to be able to connect the students to
189
1 all those things. And that is why our budget
2 request talks about exactly those kinds of
3 issues.
4 And I want to point out other things
5 that we're doing, and we are conscious that
6 we need to do more.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: So great, I do
8 appreciate it. And you know you have
9 partners here to help you do more.
10 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Absolutely.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Just -- I wonder
12 if there -- you know, with additional
13 resources and dedicated funding, I know we
14 hear that a lot, with the TAP gap, really
15 closing the TAP gap, helping expand ASAP --
16 do you think if we had dedicated funding
17 you'd be in a position to be able to expand
18 ASAP, provide additional resources to
19 students for books, food insecurity, housing
20 insecurity -- we hear story after story of
21 kids who are homeless who are just trying to
22 go to school, kids who just aren't eating and
23 trying to get to school. These are real
24 stories that I know you know about, and we
190
1 want to make those stories that the
2 experience of that doesn't happen, so people
3 can actually graduate and not have these
4 insecurities and really become productive
5 members in our society.
6 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So we're
7 totally on the same page. And that's why in
8 our budget request we have an entire category
9 sort of dedicated to precisely providing that
10 kind of support.
11 On the issue of the TAP gap, which you
12 address, also in our budget request we know
13 that the -- that the gap is -- it would be an
14 $86 million estimate on the next year, 78 in
15 this current year. And we know that that's a
16 big, that's a big number, so in our budget
17 request we suggested beginning with 9 and
18 sort of phasing it in to be able to get
19 additional resources.
20 So again, at the end of the day, we
21 concur that if we have more full-time
22 faculty, if we have more advising, more
23 counselors, more individuals to be able to
24 connect students to resources, you know,
191
1 we'll have the university that we all aspire
2 to.
3 Thank you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
5 Senate?
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
7 Senator John Liu.
8 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair.
9 Welcome, Felix.
10 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Good to see
11 you, sir.
12 SENATOR LIU: We've known each other
13 for a long time.
14 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: That's correct.
15 SENATOR LIU: Congratulations, or my
16 condolences, take whichever one you like.
17 (Laughter.)
18 SENATOR LIU: Even though we've known
19 each other for a long time, nothing's
20 personal here because we've got issues.
21 Right? And let me ask, who -- who appointed
22 you?
23 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: The Board of
24 Trustees.
192
1 SENATOR LIU: The Board of Trustees,
2 okay. Interesting.
3 Who nominated you?
4 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Nominated me
5 for the job?
6 SENATOR LIU: Yes.
7 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: I don't know.
8 That is -- you have to ask the search firm.
9 SENATOR LIU: Okay. All right, good
10 answer.
11 (Laughter.)
12 SENATOR LIU: I think we -- I think we
13 know the Governor had something to do with it
14 too, right? A little bit. Yes, the Governor
15 had something to do with it?
16 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: I -- I -- I
17 have the full support of the Governor and of
18 the Mayor, yes.
19 SENATOR LIU: Okay. And the Governor
20 is proposing this budget that Assemblymember
21 Epstein asked you about.
22 So look, I'm just saying that we know
23 you have to be a gentleman here, but I know
24 deep in your heart you are deeply upset and
193
1 disappointed at the paltry amount that the
2 Governor is proposing for CUNY funding. You
3 don't have to answer that.
4 But Harvey, I really believe that, all
5 right? Because the funding is not enough.
6 It's just not enough. And we keep asking our
7 students to pay more and more and more. I
8 mean, for goodness sake, they're resorting to
9 having to hold bake sales, bake sales, so
10 that they can take care of their tuition.
11 The problem is this. The problem is
12 that for too many years, operating costs for
13 CUNY has -- the percentage of operating costs
14 for CUNY paid out of tuitions and fees keeps
15 going up. So does your administration think
16 that at some point this could be reversed, or
17 is it just going to keep going up and up and
18 up?
19 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So let me talk
20 to you from the bottom of my heart. Right?
21 And first, I'm deeply proud of serving as the
22 chancellor of the City University of
23 New York. I think there's no institution of
24 higher ed in the country that has a better
194
1 track record of social mobility, of moving
2 individuals that come from the lowest
3 socioeconomic index to the middle class and
4 above. That's been documented. That is the
5 core of our mission, which is done through a
6 formula of a high-quality education and
7 access.
8 The State of New York has been a
9 champion nationally in investing in higher
10 education, and that is the work of the
11 Governor and that's the work also of the
12 Assembly and the Senate in providing funding
13 for all of us. So I am happy and proud for
14 that support and will continue to advance
15 that cause moving forward.
16 I am also proud of a university where
17 two out of three students do not pay any
18 tuition. Right? That is the national model
19 for our country. Three out of four of our
20 students graduate debt-free. Right? Very
21 few --
22 SENATOR LIU: I know, but we keep
23 hearing that --
24 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Very few
195
1 college presidents can actually make those
2 numbers.
3 So from the bottom of my heart, I am
4 very proud of those numbers. I wake up every
5 day to help to continue to transform this
6 university, in partnership with you, with
7 additional --
8 SENATOR LIU: Is the implication of
9 that to say that the $200 or $100 per
10 semester tuition increases don't really
11 matter, that they don't hurt? Because two
12 out of three don't pay tuition or three out
13 of four graduate debt-free, is that what
14 you're trying to imply?
15 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So what I'm
16 saying is that in the last four or five years
17 in which we also had the discretion to raise
18 tuition, right, the City University of
19 New York has used that discretion very, very
20 thoughtfully.
21 For four years there was no tuition
22 increase in the community colleges. Right?
23 That we had the authority to do that, it
24 didn't mean that we used it all the time.
196
1 Every year we did a detailed budget analysis
2 and we looked at the reality of our fiscal
3 responsibilities and our student body, and we
4 have used that authority judiciously, in a
5 way that provides investments to the
6 campuses.
7 I want to make sure that the record is
8 clear, those are the facts, that we have --
9 at different times we have decided not to
10 increase tuition. So --
11 SENATOR LIU: I'm just trying to get a
12 better handle about why tuition is being
13 relied upon more and more to pay a larger
14 share of the operating costs. That's what
15 I'm trying to get at here.
16 Is there any way to at least -- you
17 know, is there any breakdown between the
18 classroom aspect of CUNY costs and kind of
19 administrative CUNY costs? Is there any kind
20 of breakdown there?
21 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: In terms of the
22 cost?
23 SENATOR LIU: I think your deputy is
24 nodding his head like "yes."
197
1 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Yeah, we can
2 provide you those figures, yes.
3 SENATOR LIU: What I mean, what's --
4 what percentage, roughly? Administrative
5 costs 30 percent of the overall CUNY costs?
6 Twenty percent? To the nearest 10 percent.
7 We don't have to be that precise here.
8 CUNY CFO SAPIENZA: Administrative
9 costs are, I would say, less than 10 percent
10 of the overall costs.
11 SENATOR LIU: And has that been
12 decreasing or increasing over the last, say,
13 10 years?
14 CUNY CFO SAPIENZA: I would say it's
15 probably been stable --
16 SENATOR LIU: About the same.
17 CUNY CFO SAPIENZA: (Nodding.)
18 SENATOR LIU: About the same. So
19 CUNY costs overall continue to increase. But
20 because tuition keeps paying -- is funding
21 more and -- a larger and larger share of the
22 overall costs, CUNY tuition is going up
23 faster than these operating costs.
24 CUNY CFO SAPIENZA: Well, Senator Liu,
198
1 the one thing I just want to point out is
2 that the budget request that we put forth for
3 fiscal year '21 that was approved by a Board
4 of Trustees, one of the things that we really
5 looked at and that we were pleased that we
6 were able to accomplish in the budget request
7 is the amount of money that comes from our
8 operating budget from tuition would stay
9 stable within our budget request.
10 SENATOR LIU: Even though the last
11 nine years it's gone up --
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: No, John, I'm
13 sorry, you can't continue. He can just
14 close.
15 SENATOR LIU: All right, thank you.
16 Thank you.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
18 Assembly.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
20 Assemblyman Pichardo.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO: Thank you,
22 Chancellor. Welcome. Congratulations again.
23 So I don't want to -- we're short on
24 time, but I want to reiterate the concerns
199
1 that both my colleagues Senator Liu and
2 Assemblymember Epstein have mentioned. So I
3 add my voice to theirs.
4 But with that being said, I kind of
5 want to get a sense of -- you know, we passed
6 the DREAM Act last year, which was a
7 fantastic victory for this state. So in your
8 sense and estimation, do you have a sense of
9 how many students -- how many CUNY students
10 have participated or taken advantage of the
11 Jose Peralta DREAM Act so far?
12 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: We don't -- we
13 don't have those numbers exactly. And that
14 is, you know, sort of still a moving target.
15 We work very closely with Dr. Linares
16 and the entire team at HESC in making sure
17 that -- you know, particularly as a new
18 program that's being launched, there's always
19 initially some kinks. So we're working very
20 closely with that team to make sure that if
21 we identify issues, we share them with them
22 quickly so they can make the adjustment.
23 One of the things that referred to our
24 campuses, we also continue to -- but we've
200
1 been out there letting students know about
2 the opportunity. I was particularly
3 concerned about students that might have been
4 at CUNY before and might have left --
5 right? -- because they didn't have funding.
6 And I assume that because the program is new,
7 it only included new students. Right? So we
8 are very aggressive in targeting the
9 communications to both students who will be
10 starting now, to some students that might
11 have, you know, sort of left and come back.
12 But we're very, very excited. I know
13 that all of you worked very, very hard to get
14 that funding approved. And obviously being
15 named after a CUNY and Queens college alum
16 and a dear friend means a lot to me
17 personally too.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO: Thank you.
19 And, last question, I know it's been
20 mentioned about the Opportunity Programs,
21 especially ASAP. I think we mentioned that
22 the Governor zeroed out the program. It's
23 important that obviously we all raise our
24 voice to make sure that we re-implement those
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1 cuts, that this is a priority for not only
2 the Legislature, but for the Executive.
3 And I know that for CUNY itself, it's
4 important that we continue to support these
5 students, particularly students who need the
6 most help. Like in my district, I have the
7 opportunity and the honor of representing
8 Bronx Community College. So we need to make
9 sure that they stay in the forefront.
10 Also, speaking of Bronx Community
11 college, I've met with Dr. Isekenegbe many
12 times on, obviously, the concerns of the
13 capital needs for the campus. And I know
14 CUNY has invested heavily within the Bronx
15 Community College, but there's still a lot of
16 pretty big capital needs, particularly on the
17 issue of the central heating and cooling
18 system. So I know we are trying to move
19 forward and figure out investments and
20 pathways to fund that.
21 But right now, where do you think is
22 the biggest need in terms of Bronx Community
23 College in terms of its capital needs?
24 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So again, thank
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1 you for your support. And again, on behalf
2 of your 4,181 CUNY students in your
3 district --
4 (Laughter.)
5 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO: You're really
6 good at this.
7 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: -- I bring you
8 greetings. And I know you know them, because
9 I know that you are a presence in our campus
10 and you've been a higher ed supporter and
11 champion.
12 And ASAP is particularly important for
13 Bronx Community College because as you know,
14 we are trying to use Bronx Community as a
15 flagship of what a college would look like if
16 almost, you know, most of the students could
17 be supported by ASAP. And that experiment
18 continues very, very well, that program of
19 President Isekenegbe and his team. So it's
20 very, very important for the future of ASAP
21 that what we're doing at BCC continues to go
22 well.
23 BCC is one of the most beautiful
24 campuses, and the investments in
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1 infrastructure sometimes are the things that
2 nobody sees, like the steam pipelines and the
3 things that are not attractive, because you
4 don't get to cut a ribbon when you do HVAC
5 and those things. But they're indispensable
6 to be able to support our students. So we're
7 happy that the current budget provides
8 critical maintenance funding to be able to
9 continue those programs by the matching funds
10 for the community colleges. It's important
11 to put that up-front so that we can get the
12 rest of the funding from the city.
13 You and I were there in the
14 ribbon-cutting for the renovated swimming
15 pool also at BCC, so we continue to invest in
16 Bronx Community and our other campuses too.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO: All right, my
18 time is up. Thank you.
19 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Thank you.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO: Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
22 Before we go to the Senate, I just
23 wanted to acknowledge that Assemblyman
24 Colton, member of the Ways and Means
204
1 Committee, has been here for some time. And
2 we also were joined by Assemblywoman McMahon.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Great. And we've
4 been joined by Senator Jim Gaughran.
5 But our next questioner is Senator
6 Robert Jackson.
7 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you, Madam
8 Chair.
9 Chancellor, good afternoon.
10 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Good afternoon.
11 Great to see you.
12 SENATOR JACKSON: Good seeing you.
13 And I'm happy that you're the chancellor of
14 the City University of New York. And I say
15 to you, I'm looking at some of your staff
16 there -- and I know some of them -- and I'm
17 looking at the diversity of the people that
18 are sitting there. And that's a very
19 positive sign, in my opinion.
20 But I wanted to touch base with you
21 about the budget. Do you think that the
22 Executive Budget put forward by the Governor
23 is enough in order to move forward CUNY in
24 the direction that you want it to go?
205
1 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: I mean, clearly
2 we're excited about the funding to be able to
3 advance the agenda we've laid out as
4 chancellor. As I mentioned in my testimony,
5 there are some areas like career engagement
6 which are very, very clear and important to
7 me. I know that Chancellor Johnson in her
8 testimony about SUNY spoke about the
9 importance of internships, and it's
10 something -- a passion that we both have.
11 Internships, for example, we have examples
12 that students who participate in paid
13 internships, right, when they go get jobs,
14 they get that job faster and their first-time
15 pay is higher. Right?
16 When 50 percent of the students you
17 serve are students who are the first one in
18 their family to go to college, that
19 opportunity is something that we need to
20 advance.
21 Also, if you think about our price
22 point at the City University of New York, if
23 we have students going out there, getting
24 paid between $3,000 and $5,000 for a paid
206
1 internship, right, if you're a community
2 college student, that's a year of tuition.
3 Right? If your tuition is paid for, that's
4 your money for transportation, for food
5 insecurity.
6 So I'm excited about the chances that
7 this budget allows to make investment in
8 those areas, yes.
9 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you. Thank
10 you. Chancellor, I'm just going to try to
11 ask some quick questions --
12 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Sorry.
13 SENATOR JACKSON: -- because my time
14 is limited. I would love to have a dialogue
15 with you, maybe I'll come to your office.
16 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: The door is
17 always open. Or I'll go to yours.
18 SENATOR JACKSON: But with respect
19 to I asked a question -- I'm asking you the
20 question, the Professional Staff Congress
21 just negotiated a contract, and you have a
22 lot of adjuncts that were working and they
23 were paid peanuts, in my opinion, and so they
24 got an increase.
207
1 In the Executive Budget, was their
2 contract paid for in the Executive Budget, or
3 it must come out of the hides of all of the
4 colleges?
5 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So again, I am
6 extremely proud of that contract, to be able
7 to provide a 71 percent increase in the
8 salary of the adjuncts. It's national news.
9 SENATOR JACKSON: It's about damn
10 time. You know that, right?
11 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: I agree with
12 you. And also to create some mechanisms to
13 allow them to be more integrated. I mean
14 now, for example, they're going to be getting
15 paid for their hours -- their office hours
16 and things that we did not include before.
17 SENATOR JACKSON: But I just asked
18 you, is it covered -- was that money for the
19 contract put into the Executive Budget, or
20 it's not? Because if not, then it has to
21 come from somewhere. And so if I'm the
22 president of City College, which is in my
23 district -- along with Bryan Benjamin -- then
24 I'm going to either have to cut staff or cut
208
1 programs.
2 So my question is, it wasn't covered,
3 an increase in the budget? So how do you
4 expect them to then deal with that if in fact
5 it was not put in the budget?
6 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So we put -- in
7 our budget request, we requested funding to
8 be able to pay for our mandatory cost
9 increases. We also included a request for
10 the funding to be able to provide for the
11 increase in our regular salary costs too.
12 And I'm very confident that throughout this
13 process, at the end of the journey, with your
14 support, we'll be able to get a budget that
15 I'll also be able to fund all those needs.
16 SENATOR JACKSON: Well -- and I read
17 your statement as far as -- and I have CUNY
18 PSC's testimony. They say, from a capital
19 point of view, the needs are like $5 billion.
20 And the labs are so outdated, it's not really
21 functioning at the level that they're
22 supposed to. Do you agree or disagree with
23 that?
24 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So we're happy
209
1 to have about $284 million in critical
2 capital needs -- to address needs like the
3 ones that you identified. I'm sure that our
4 good colleague Barbara Bowen will also
5 identify when she provides her testimony.
6 And we're trying to address all those
7 needs and make sure that the students have
8 the facilities that they need. We're also
9 working very hard with our campuses to
10 expedite the usage of the funds when we get
11 them, to be able to get to those construction
12 projects and renovations quickly.
13 So we're aware of those needs and I
14 look forward to, with your support,
15 addressing them in the future.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
17 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman
20 Hyndman.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you,
22 Madam Chair, and to Chancellor Matos
23 Rodriguez, congratulations.
24 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Great to see
210
1 you.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: I've -- we've
3 come to know each other very well over your
4 trajectory from Puerto Rico to the Bronx to
5 Queens and now as the chancellor.
6 So one of the things you mentioned is
7 that you have to fill vacancies for nine CUNY
8 presidents?
9 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Now eight.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Now eight.
11 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: How close are
13 you for -- I don't have a college in my
14 district, but how close are you to the one
15 that is close to my district, in making a
16 decision there? That was one of my
17 questions.
18 The other question is, of the ASAP
19 program that you talked about, you know, it's
20 great. I don't think CUNY should have ever
21 needed a program to make sure students are
22 graduating on time, but apparently we did.
23 What about the students that are not
24 part of ASAP -- food equity, transportation?
211
1 A lot of these students are part-time;
2 Excelsior doesn't apply to them. What is
3 your take on those students and the
4 remediation courses that I know you're trying
5 to get away from, but we know are necessary.
6 That's my second question.
7 And when it comes to OER, how -- I'm
8 glad that the increase -- you've been able to
9 save money on the increase from 2017 to 2019
10 of those individuals. So you said $1 for
11 every $7 is what you're saving?
12 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: The students --
13 the students saved $7 for every dollar that
14 the State of New York put into the program.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Oh, okay. How
16 do you audit the materials that are in OER as
17 a system? And how many CUNY students in my
18 district?
19 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So for some
20 reason, I need to get the number of students
21 in your district, and we'll have that in a
22 second. So let me take all your questions in
23 turn.
24 First, we cannot do eight searches at
212
1 the same time, it would be impossible given
2 the staffing that we have and also the number
3 of trustees and others that determine those
4 committees.
5 So we are currently about to conclude
6 the searches for the Graduate Center and
7 Queens College. We've seen the final list
8 for those searches. This week we just began
9 the searches -- I was just at Borough of
10 Manhattan Community College, LaGuardia
11 Community College, and Queensborough
12 Community College, so we began those three
13 searches for community colleges this week.
14 In April we will begin the searches
15 for Lehman College, your college, and Guttman
16 Community College. So -- and I am hoping
17 that after that, no more of my presidents
18 decide to retire and we catch a little break
19 on the search business.
20 (Laughter.)
21 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: You were asking
22 about ASAP. One of the great things about
23 being a university that really cares about
24 its students is that we're always thinking to
213
1 see what lessons from ASAP we learned that we
2 can apply in some of the other colleges.
3 Right?
4 So for example, a lesson from ASAP was
5 the importance of the MetroCards. So at
6 Guttman Community College, the 1,000 students
7 that attend Guttman, through support from the
8 City Council, get a free MetroCard. It's
9 something that we learned, we replicated at
10 Guttman.
11 Twelve thousand CUNY students have
12 been able to benefit from the first phase of
13 the Fair Fares program that New York City
14 started. Right? Now the program will sort
15 of roll out big, so we assume that we're
16 going to have a substantial number of our
17 students that are going to have a reduced
18 transportation cost as a result of that
19 program.
20 Overall, right now at CUNY between
21 Fair Fares, ASAP and Guttman, about 38,000
22 students have their MetroCards paid for free.
23 So we're trying in every place that we can to
24 learn what we learned from ASAP and see how
214
1 it applies to other students and other
2 populations to be able to continue to advance
3 our Student Success Agenda.
4 You asked about OER, right? Those
5 programs are implemented with the help of the
6 campus library and the faculty. The faculty
7 who participate, participate voluntarily.
8 And I am proud to say that when faculty have
9 seen the kinds of resources available and the
10 impact it has on the students, the number of
11 faculty who are interested in participating
12 keeps increasing.
13 But it is something that is done with
14 full faculty input. Nobody is told, you
15 know, which books they need to use. But I
16 think that given the faculty that we have
17 that come to CUNY in part because they want
18 to teach the students that we have and
19 they're committed to public higher education,
20 they've been embracing this initiative. And
21 the kinds of success and savings that you're
22 seeing there couldn't have been done without
23 the support of our faculty, and we hope that
24 we can continue to expand that.
215
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
2 Senate?
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
4 Senator Gounardes.
5 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Good morning.
6 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Good morning,
7 Senator.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Good afternoon.
9 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Good afternoon,
10 jeez. We'll be here all day. Good afternoon.
11 My parents met at Brooklyn College, I
12 graduated Hunter College, and I had the
13 privilege of teaching at Hunter College this
14 past semester, so CUNY runs through my blood.
15 I want to ask what is the dollar
16 amount for CUNY's budget today that is
17 covered by student tuition or private
18 sources? And what percentage is that of the
19 total operating budget?
20 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So the
21 percentage of -- your question is student --
22 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Student tuition
23 and private support versus public support,
24 essentially. So the dollar amount and the
216
1 percentage.
2 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So the
3 undergrad percentage is 13 percent. The
4 graduate percentage is 4 percent.
5 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Four percent.
6 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
7 SENATOR GOUNARDES: And what's the
8 dollar amount for that?
9 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Do you want
10 that now?
11 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Well, I guess --
12 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: We can get that
13 to you. We have it here.
14 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Yeah, I mean I'd
15 like to see that number now. Because I think
16 it's relevant when we're talking about what
17 it's going to take to fully fund the City
18 University and what type of investment we
19 should be making.
20 If we're talking about 13 or
21 4 percent, that's not a lot that we can't
22 make up through a robust public investment.
23 So I want to know what that dollar amount is
24 and what we should be thinking about in terms
217
1 of fully funding the operation of the
2 university.
3 CUNY CFO SAPIENZA: The total amount
4 that supports our operating budget -- which
5 is 3.7 billion -- that comes from payments
6 from students is $736 million.
7 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Seven hundred
8 thirty-six million. So if we found
9 736 million, we could wipe out student
10 tuition, essentially. Is that a fair
11 assessment, a fair way of thinking about
12 that?
13 CUNY CFO SAPIENZA: Seven hundred
14 thirty-six million is the amount of money
15 that students pay out of pocket.
16 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Okay. That's
17 helpful, thank you.
18 I want to come back to the notion of
19 the, you know, three-fourths of students
20 graduate debt-free. And that sounds really
21 great, but I guess at what cost is that? You
22 know, if a student has to work two or three
23 jobs or has to elongate their education by a
24 year, two years or three years, does that --
218
1 how do we -- students shouldn't have to put
2 themselves through wringer just to graduate
3 on time and debt-free.
4 And the experience we've heard from
5 students is that a lot of them are working
6 two jobs. Students that I taught this
7 semester working two jobs just to pay their
8 rent and pay their tuition.
9 So when we say three-fourths graduate
10 debt-free, it feels like it's a little
11 disingenuous. And we need to be doing a lot
12 more to make sure that we're fully supporting
13 all of the needs of students and giving them
14 an environment, both in the classroom and
15 outside the classroom, where they can
16 actually survive and thrive.
17 And I don't think we're doing that
18 right now. That's based on my own
19 observations, the testimony we heard at the
20 hearings in the fall that Senator Stavisky
21 led, and my ongoing conversations with
22 students.
23 And so I too am very disappointed with
24 the investments we're making in this budget,
219
1 or propose to make in this budget, that
2 really goes to help students. And I'm very
3 concerned about that.
4 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So thank you
5 for your concern.
6 And I've always said, since my
7 experience at Queens College and previously
8 at Hunter, where I was on the faculty, that
9 if we had instituted a $5 alumni gift from
10 all couples that met at CUNY, maybe, you
11 know, some of this fiscal situation would
12 have been addressed, because we have so many
13 couples that met either at the campuses or
14 between campuses. So great to have your
15 story about your parents, and also your
16 commitment to CUNY.
17 You talked about the needs of our
18 students, and that's one of the things that
19 we take very seriously. And it's very dear
20 to the heart -- my heart, our presidents
21 team. That is why on areas like food
22 insecurity we've gone out there and secured
23 funding for this pilot program with the City
24 Council to be able to award food vouchers to
220
1 our students. We're beginning with a
2 thousand students, and we're going to see how
3 that has an impact on retention and
4 graduation, and hopefully be able to expand
5 it.
6 The investment in lowering the cost of
7 books -- if you have to spend less on books,
8 that's more money that you have to be able to
9 spend on other things. And that's I think a
10 significant investment.
11 The investment in cutting down the
12 transportation costs, going back to the
13 numbers that I provided Assemblywoman Hyndman
14 in her question. So I think that --
15 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Just to respond
16 there, you know, if we weren't raising
17 tuition and if we weren't charging students
18 fees for mental health services, if we
19 weren't doing all these things, they could
20 afford transportation, they can afford room
21 and board, they could afford their rent, they
22 can afford to buy themselves a meal.
23 I think we need to shift the paradigm
24 of how we're thinking about funding higher
221
1 education. All these programs are great and
2 we're spending a lot of money on them, but we
3 can do more to make the costs lower for
4 students on the education front and then find
5 other ways to help them outside of that. I
6 think we need to think very carefully and
7 smartly about how we need to do this in the
8 future, because it's not working, I guess is
9 my overall point.
10 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Thank you.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you,
12 Senate.
13 Assembly?
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go now for a
15 second round to Assemblywoman Glick.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you.
17 You must have sort of an overall view
18 of the capital needs -- not year to year, but
19 at some point I'd like to understand what
20 your long-range projection is so we can have
21 a -- you know, we've -- both houses have
22 supported five-year capital plans. They
23 aren't always embraced, the bill gets vetoed.
24 So we'd like to know what the target is
222
1 overall.
2 Have you or the presidents been
3 directed to increase your outreach for
4 philanthropy? Do you have a target that you
5 would like to hit in order to -- obviously
6 now you have a recommended, suggested in the
7 budget, a match. So already you're being
8 told you have to go out and raise money in
9 order to get some of the capital. That's
10 public. We want to understand if there's
11 been this suggestion for some time or if
12 there's some target that the trustees would
13 like you to hit that even might exceed what
14 is in the Governor's budget.
15 And you have the ASAP program. It's
16 wonderful. What is the equivalent in the
17 four-year schools? Because clearly you have
18 students who come in, they're doing well --
19 they may have some sort of family crisis,
20 illness, what have you, and they start to
21 struggle. Do you have a mechanism for
22 identifying them? And then do you have a
23 plan or a program in place that replicates
24 ASAP, but for the four-year schools? I think
223
1 there is something, it's just the name is
2 escaping me.
3 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Yes. ACE.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: ACE, okay. If
5 we could know a little bit more about how
6 many students are getting supported in ACE,
7 what's the -- how successful is it in the
8 four years as compared to the ASAP program?
9 So how big is it, how many have graduated,
10 and how many students are being assisted?
11 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Okay.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Here in the
13 Capital Region there's something called
14 Universal Access. It's a combination of
15 money that's been funded by some of the
16 corporations, and SUNY Albany throws money
17 in. And it -- on your ID card it's in -- you
18 know, it's encoded and you can take a bus
19 or -- it's covered.
20 The city has put out a new sort of
21 low-income half-fare program. How many
22 students are eligible for that? Do they know
23 about it? If this is something that you're
24 looking for additional money for One Stop, I
224
1 assume, is --
2 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Single Stop.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Single Stop.
4 And so is this one of those things that
5 students are assisted in? I assume you have
6 to apply for it. Everything has to be
7 applied for. So you have to know about it in
8 order to benefit. That's okay. So is this
9 one of those things that students might be
10 able to access?
11 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So let me take
12 your questions in order. You're making
13 reference to the Fair Fares program. CUNY
14 was one of the target populations in the
15 initial rollout. In that initial rollout,
16 already 12,000 students already signed up for
17 a discount MetroCard. Now the city is going
18 out citywide, and it's based on income
19 eligibility. That's a city program.
20 So we assume that thousands of CUNY
21 students will be able to benefit from that
22 program, and we've been out there
23 publicizing, you know, working with the city
24 in letting our students know that they need
225
1 to take advantage of this program because it
2 will be a significant benefit for them.
3 In the community colleges where we
4 have your Single Stop, which you made a
5 reference to, that is one place that we've
6 been partnering, getting the message out to
7 get the students to know about all these
8 programs.
9 The connection of students to
10 programs -- you made a reference that
11 students need to know, that they need to
12 apply, they need to know the rules -- is one
13 of the reasons why in our budget request we
14 asked for additional resources to be able to
15 support staff that can connect students to
16 all those opportunities and can serve as
17 liaisons with the city agencies that provide
18 the rulings.
19 I'll send you the information on ACE.
20 ACE is a pilot program, we've done it for
21 three years now at John Jay. We just began a
22 cohort at Lehman. We can provide you with
23 the numbers. The initial numbers are very,
24 very promising. Modeled after ASAP. We --
226
1 in the same way that we built ASAP, we want
2 to do that, test it, research, make sure that
3 we're getting it right.
4 To your question of philanthropy, all
5 the presidents are expected to fundraise.
6 And actually the ACE version at Lehman got a
7 philanthropic gift to be able to expand the
8 number of students. Based on the prestige of
9 ASAP, they said they want to invest in
10 Lehman, so the president got a gift. Provost
11 Cruz used to be the president at Lehman
12 before I asked him to join us.
13 So we can send you more information.
14 It's extremely promising. I've been charging
15 the committees that are looking for
16 presidents that an ability to fundraise is
17 one of the criteria they need to have. It's
18 an important thing. And the Governor's
19 two-to-one matching program allows us to go
20 to potential funders and have them further
21 incentivized to give because their dollar is
22 going an extra mile.
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
227
1 We go to the Senate now.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
3 Senator Ken LaValle.
4 SENATOR LaVALLE: Thank you.
5 Senator Stavisky told us about her
6 concerns for students being in crumbling
7 facilities. Senators Liu, Jackson and
8 Gounardes told us of their concern for
9 student costs going up, lack of funding.
10 Now, Chancellor, we all have personalities
11 and we show and express ourselves in
12 different ways. I didn't get a sense -- I
13 mean, students being in crumbling facilities?
14 I would get a sense that you would be
15 outraged by that.
16 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Well, Senator,
17 first I want to thank you for your years of
18 service in the Senate and in higher ed. And
19 all of us who are part of public higher ed
20 owe you a big debt of gratitude for your
21 commitment and your service.
22 To your question, I served 10 years as
23 a college president and 10 before as a
24 faculty member. Right? So I've been in the
228
1 buildings at Hunter, at Hostos and at Queens.
2 I think my colleagues both at Queens and at
3 Hostos will tell you that as president I was
4 always very attentive to all our
5 infrastructure needs to make sure that if
6 there were issues about, you know, bathrooms
7 that were not ready, you know, buildings that
8 needed repairs, that they were looked after
9 quickly and in a way that showed respect for
10 the students.
11 We're doing the same thing at the City
12 University of New York. We're trying to
13 stretch every dollar that we get. We're
14 trying to get additional dollars to be able
15 to provide the facilities that our students
16 deserve.
17 So I am clearly, clearly disturbed
18 when I hear comments about things in our
19 facilities that do not match the -- the
20 respect that our students deserve. My mom
21 and my dad in Puerto Rico are products of a
22 public university. My dad became an
23 engineer. I wouldn't be standing in front of
24 you if it was not that that door of
229
1 opportunity was open for them, so I know what
2 that means. And when I see our students, I
3 see them. So I want for them the same kind
4 of infrastructure that students at private
5 campuses have.
6 SENATOR LaVALLE: You have requested a
7 $120 a year health and student fee. What is
8 a student going to get for that?
9 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So thank you
10 for your question.
11 First let me say that that will be the
12 first fee that the City University of
13 New York has added since 2002. Right? So
14 when we think about tuition increases, when
15 we think about increasing fees, these are
16 things that we are thoughtful of when we do
17 them because we want to be sensitive to our
18 student population.
19 We have heard about needs of
20 additional mental health counselors. We have
21 heard about needs about expansion of hours in
22 our wellness clinics. We have heard about
23 additional support for students that have
24 food and housing insecurity.
230
1 The proposed fee will work in this
2 way. We'll take one-third of the funding
3 from the fee, the central office, and we will
4 tell the campuses to invest it directly and
5 immediately in adding mental health
6 counselors and in adding personnel so that
7 they can help the students -- for example, if
8 you're food insecure, to be able to apply for
9 SNAP. If you have issues with housing, to be
10 able to identify -- we need people on the
11 ground to be able to connect the students to
12 do that.
13 So the first third of that fee will
14 begin to transform by providing, directly,
15 mental health counselors and other staff to
16 the campuses.
17 The other two-thirds will work in the
18 same way that the tech fee works now, which
19 means that it will go to a committee on the
20 campus, a committee with student voices,
21 faculty voices, and they will determine what
22 campus needs they have. It won't be the
23 central office. It will be, in each campus,
24 how do we supplement, what are some of the
231
1 priorities that students have. Right?
2 Because the fee will be coming from the
3 students. So this will be a very direct way.
4 We're also, you know, going to
5 request -- we're asking the city and state
6 for additional funding in the area of
7 wellness, right? So it's a comprehensive
8 way.
9 But the fee will directly go to
10 address some of these things we've been
11 hearing about in a very direct way, with
12 two-thirds of the funding going to the
13 campuses with student input into how the
14 funds get to be spent.
15 SENATOR LaVALLE: I'm glad to hear
16 mental health was highlighted by you --
17 critical in today's world on our campuses.
18 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: We're in
19 agreement. Thank you.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
21 Assembly?
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Nope, we're
23 done.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, the
232
1 Assembly's done.
2 So Senator Jim Seward.
3 SENATOR SEWARD: Thank you, Madam
4 Chair.
5 And Chancellor, welcome.
6 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Thank you.
7 SENATOR SEWARD: I wanted to return to
8 the discussion on tuition-free students at
9 CUNY. You mentioned that two out of three
10 students are tuition-free?
11 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: That's correct,
12 sir.
13 SENATOR SEWARD: Does that mean that
14 with the tuition increases that we've seen as
15 well as projected for the next four years,
16 does that mean that those increases in
17 tuition are falling onto that third student?
18 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So about
19 70 percent of our students pay full tuition.
20 And so again, I want to remind you that the
21 proposed authority in our history at CUNY --
22 for example, we had it for the past four or
23 five years -- every year we determine whether
24 we want to be to able to -- we want to
233
1 proceed with a tuition increase. For four
2 years in our community colleges we didn't do
3 it. Right? So the fact that we're given the
4 flexibility to move forward to do this --
5 right? I want to make sure that is clear,
6 that every year we make an assessment as to
7 whether we need that amount to be able to,
8 you know, be part of our full funding
9 structure or, like we've done in the past, we
10 decided that maybe in that year that's not
11 necessary.
12 So I want to make sure that we
13 remember that is the flexibility to do that,
14 and that we have a history at the City
15 University of at times deciding that we're
16 not going to do it.
17 SENATOR SEWARD: If the proposed
18 tuition increases become part of the final
19 budget and you have that option, do you have
20 any concerns about how that will affect the
21 TAP gap moving forward for your various
22 campuses?
23 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Absolutely.
24 And as I mentioned in reference to
234
1 another question too, in our budget request
2 we propose that -- just sort of a partial
3 movement of restoring the TAP gap. The
4 amount that we put in the budget request was
5 to begin with 9 million.
6 You know, we know that 86, which is
7 the total predicted for next year, is a large
8 number. We also know that you have many
9 individuals coming to you with different
10 requests, right, so we want to be judicious
11 in that. But we hope that over time we're
12 able to sort of fill that TAP gap, yes.
13 SENATOR SEWARD: Okay. Getting back
14 to the capital program and that issue, do you
15 maintain a backlog of projects that are
16 needed in regard to the facility condition
17 index, which measures the current conditions
18 of facilities requiring capital investment?
19 Can you give us some idea of what that
20 backlog is in your system?
21 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So I don't know
22 the number offhand, but we'll be happy to
23 provide that to your office.
24 SENATOR SEWARD: Can you share with us
235
1 what your budget request for capital projects
2 and strategic initiatives were this year?
3 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: I'm going to
4 defer to our CFO, who knows those numbers a
5 little better than I do.
6 CUNY CFO SAPIENZA: Senator, this is
7 our capital project request book
8 (indicating). I hope all of you have it. If
9 you don't, we can certainly make sure we can
10 provide it to you. It's 185 pages, very
11 comprehensive. There's capital projects in
12 here for every single campus that are fully
13 detailed.
14 In our request for the next five-year
15 plan, we are seeking $5.2 billion: 3.8 for
16 the senior colleges, 1.4 for the junior
17 colleges.
18 SENATOR SEWARD: Well, if it was up to
19 the Legislature, we would have a five-year
20 plan for both CUNY and SUNY.
21 I just wanted to shift gears quickly
22 to the community colleges in your system.
23 Are you experiencing enrollment declines?
24 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: We have. And I
236
1 think that it is something that -- you know,
2 I served five years as a community college
3 president at Hostos from 2009 to '14.
4 First, it is not atypical at a time
5 when the unemployment numbers are low and the
6 economy is perceived to be better, the
7 enrollment numbers in higher ed, but
8 particularly in community colleges, are sort
9 of countercyclical in that regard.
10 So we have seen -- we have been able,
11 in the past year or so, to sort of put some
12 of the brakes on that decline, but the
13 numbers have been going down for the past
14 two, three years.
15 SENATOR FELDER: Even in declining
16 enrollment, the community colleges, both CUNY
17 and SUNY, do a tremendous job in terms of
18 workforce training and development.
19 And would you anticipate an
20 increase -- the need to increase community
21 college tuition based on the enrollment
22 levels of today?
23 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So we are
24 asking for, first, additional support. In
237
1 this process in the past, the increase to the
2 base aid I think is a continuing component,
3 and we look forward to working with you to be
4 able to restore that.
5 We did, in this year, after four years
6 of not having any increase in our community
7 college, ask for an increase. That increase
8 would still be below the maximum TAP award.
9 So we anticipate, you know, 90 percent of our
10 students in the community colleges not being
11 affected in terms of having to pay
12 out-of-pocket for that increase.
13 And again, as someone who served five
14 years in a community college, I also concur
15 with you about how important they are as a
16 door of opportunity, as a gateway, and also
17 as a key partner to the business community in
18 the workforce area.
19 SENATOR SEWARD: Thank you.
20 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 I'm going to take my questions and
23 then we'll let Toby Stavisky close for the
24 Senate.
238
1 So tuition goes up each year, but
2 you're reporting that students aren't
3 finishing school with debt. So are we seeing
4 an impact on their retention and how many
5 years it takes them to finish schools if in
6 fact they're still completing school without
7 debt?
8 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So thank you
9 for your question. And obviously we're very
10 proud of the success we've had over the last
11 couple of years in increasing both our
12 graduation rates and our retention rates.
13 It's been really a remarkable story, both at
14 the community colleges and the four-year
15 colleges, of advancing an agenda of student
16 success, making sure that students keep
17 academic momentum, that they take as many
18 credits that they possibly can, that they
19 stay on track, that we provide support for
20 them.
21 In preparation of the budget, we
22 actually also looked at the past and we
23 looked at the students that were paying
24 out-of-pocket, and we didn't find a direct
239
1 correlation between students that were paying
2 the tuition increases and students that were
3 stopping out or not graduating. Right? So
4 we're very thoughtful in our analysis to do
5 that request.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So we know that
7 you've gotten your -- well, we don't know for
8 sure, but we think you have resolved your
9 adjunct situation for a while, that there is
10 capital money for the first time in a while.
11 What if you didn't do an increase in
12 the next couple of years? What would be the
13 impact on your university?
14 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So the -- let
15 me just make a reference to the adjunct issue
16 because it's something that I know is of
17 interest to many of you, and it's a big
18 concern of mine, and that's why we moved
19 aggressively at the beginning of my tenure to
20 work with the PSC to be able to bring the
21 contract to resolution and, in that, provide
22 a historic increase to the adjuncts.
23 Putting on my hat as a former college
24 president, right, when we moved to the point
240
1 where the adjuncts at the lowest rate of
2 compensation receive $5500 as their salary --
3 when you do the math, you would not be too
4 far away of what the salary would be for a
5 full-time lecturer. Right?
6 So it is my hope and it was part of
7 the aspiration of this contract that you
8 begin to see a move of having the campuses,
9 for example, hire more full-time faculty --
10 the full-time lecturers are part of the
11 full-time faculty -- in a way that advances
12 student success and makes us to be less
13 dependent on adjuncts.
14 So the contract was both a way to do
15 justice to the adjuncts in terms of payment
16 but also part of our longer-term strategy to
17 sort of bring down the reliance on the number
18 of adjuncts and continue to increase the
19 number of full-time faculty that we have.
20 As I mentioned before, every year we
21 do an analysis of where our fiscal needs are
22 and what we would need to be able to get
23 there. And in the past there's been times in
24 which we have decided to go ahead with
241
1 tuition increases; there have been times when
2 we have decided not to do that.
3 The tuition revenue this year that we
4 get at the senior colleges is 36 million.
5 Right? So if you can project that moving
6 forward, there would be a comfortable amount
7 in the outlying years that we have to be able
8 to address to be able to think about
9 different forms of tuition increases or not.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So you don't
11 necessarily have to know this now, but I'm
12 very interested in you getting back to us.
13 You know how many students came in on
14 Excelsior scholarship so far. It wasn't that
15 many.
16 If we jump 125 to 135 to 150 in three
17 years, can you project for us, one, how many
18 additional students that will bring in versus
19 how many students who already were coming and
20 graduating on time will now just get full
21 freight, so to speak, for college?
22 And then I'm assuming that you, CUNY,
23 have to pick up that cost.
24 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: In the TAP gap,
242
1 you mean?
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So if another 300
3 students come in with Excelsior at 125 up,
4 they've not been eligible for TAP at all up
5 until now, so they're going to get
6 100 percent of TAP. So is that billed
7 against your colleges, as opposed to the
8 state comes up with that money separately?
9 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So we have now
10 about 4500 students in CUNY that benefit from
11 the Excelsior program. And our estimate is
12 about another $1,400 when the eligibility
13 moves to the $150,000 in household income. I
14 have to make sure I get those numbers right.
15 The 400,000 is an estimate based on
16 the number of students currently that their
17 families make that amount. I think it's fair
18 to estimate that there might be another
19 number of students who now are not thinking
20 of CUNY as an option, right, who might
21 consider CUNY as an option as a result of
22 Excelsior, who are in that bandwidth that now
23 are deciding to go elsewhere. And making a
24 projection of that is really tricky.
243
1 So the number that we share with you
2 is a number based on the number of students
3 that we do have now that fit that household
4 income data.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So I'm from
6 Manhattan, so whenever anybody talks about
7 building anything, we're talking air rights.
8 Are we talking that you can count air
9 rights against the half that you have to come
10 up with to get the matching money from the
11 state?
12 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: That if you
13 count air rights --
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Against -- so you
15 have this two-to-one match assignment for the
16 capital money. So in Manhattan, almost
17 anything that gets built as a public
18 building, a public amenity, has some piece of
19 an air-rights deal tied into it. Is it the
20 assumption that that's what you were going to
21 be working with and that the sale of those
22 air rights will count towards the matching
23 funds you have to come up with?
24 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: That -- I mean,
244
1 that is an interesting proposition. I mean,
2 if you think about it as a private source,
3 right, that would count as a private source
4 because the air rights would come with, you
5 know, whatever developer or company you're
6 dealing with.
7 So we'll definitely suggest that that
8 kind of creative thinking -- and if you're
9 doing it -- which is, you know, part of the
10 Manhattan real estate sense, is something
11 that is part of the matching program.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. And
13 crumbling buildings. The nursing students on
14 25th Street have been in an untenable
15 situation now for years. Do you have any
16 good news to share with me?
17 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: We are looking
18 into that as something that we discuss. And
19 for the public record, I want to show that
20 the Senator is equally committed to those
21 students in the public hearing as she is
22 privately when I went to meet with her in her
23 office.
24 We are also very fortunate, as part of
245
1 the new team that we have in the office --
2 and I think he's in the audience -- Allen
3 Lew, our new senior vice chancellor for
4 facilities and planning. One of the tasks
5 that he has -- and he is a City College alum
6 who decided to come back after being the city
7 manager in D.C. and running all the public
8 infrastructure programs in D.C.
9 So he's been charged to begin to look
10 at situations like that to see if we can
11 expedite solutions to be able to advance the
12 situation for the nursing students at Hunter
13 and some of the other capital needs that we
14 have in Hunter and other parts of the city.
15 So it is one of his first assignments as our
16 new senior vice chancellor for facilities and
17 planning.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And how many
19 students live in my district? I'm feeling a
20 little hurt.
21 (Laughter.)
22 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: No, no, no, no,
23 we have that.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Twenty-eight.
246
1 Senate District 28.
2 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: No, no, I know.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: It's okay, I
4 wasn't really trying to put you on the spot.
5 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: No, no, no,
6 this is -- I want to make sure that -- 2,129.
7 So I want to make sure that you feel the love
8 too.
9 (Laughter.)
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
11 Toby Stavisky to close.
12 SENATOR STAVISKY: I'm not going to
13 ask you that question. Or maybe I will.
14 Since the Governor's -- really for the
15 past year and a quarter that I've been chair
16 of the Higher Ed Committee, I've been meeting
17 with everybody, all aspects of the education
18 community. And the one theme that I hear, in
19 addition to the underfunding of public higher
20 education, is the TAP gap. And I hear it
21 from the students, but I hear it from the
22 faculty and I hear it from constituents.
23 How do you propose we deal with the
24 TAP gap?
247
1 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: So thank you,
2 Senator, and --
3 SENATOR STAVISKY: You've thanked me
4 for every question I've asked.
5 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: To be an
6 equal-opportunity chancellor, thank you on
7 behalf of the 11,268 CUNY students that live
8 in your district. And which used to be --
9 SENATOR STAVISKY: You mean CUNY
10 students --
11 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: CUNY students
12 in your district, yes.
13 The TAP gap is a concern. If you look
14 at our budget request, it is one of the
15 things that we addressed. And we propose a
16 scale way to sort of get back to restore that
17 number, which would be projected at
18 $86 million next year. Our request was
19 $9 million to begin.
20 And again, that is something which,
21 you know, we recognize that presents a sort
22 of a structural issue. And we look forward
23 to working with all of you in trying to
24 address that.
248
1 SENATOR STAVISKY: We brought up the
2 issue of students learning in temporary
3 facilities, whether they be trailers or
4 prefab buildings or whatever. Can you give
5 us a number -- I'm sure you don't have it at
6 hand -- how many classes are being taught or
7 how many students are being taught in these
8 temporary structures?
9 Because the testimony from -- I think
10 it was the student leaders, I think it was
11 Medgar Evers, if I'm not mistaken, at the
12 December 16th hearing, was very compelling.
13 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: And I received
14 your letter after the hearing. Thank you.
15 And we're getting the information for that.
16 And I can get you that information.
17 SENATOR STAVISKY: And lastly, it was
18 discussed a little this afternoon the issues
19 concerning the mental health fee that is
20 being charged the students. Which I must
21 tell you, it seems to me this is an issue
22 that should be borne by the college, not by
23 the recipients of the services. And that's
24 really what's happening.
249
1 And I think the students themselves
2 throughout the hearings, whether it be in
3 Buffalo from SUNY students, in Syracuse, we
4 went to New Paltz, we went to Brooklyn
5 College, Nassau Community College, 250
6 Broadway. And mental health issues have been
7 a rising concern, particularly in today's day
8 and age. And I really urge you to try to
9 resolve that issue without charging the
10 students for the fee.
11 And lastly, along those lines, we had
12 a pilot project where students were able to
13 work with other students, graduate students
14 in psychology were able to -- I think it was
15 teleconferencing, and I think they used
16 Upstate Medical School students to try to
17 provide services, really a listening device,
18 I guess, for students with mental health
19 issues. And I think this is an issue that
20 calls for creative solutions.
21 And I thank you, and I thank the
22 chairs.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
24 Assembly.
250
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Just to close,
2 I would be remiss if I didn't say if it
3 wasn't for Brooklyn College, I probably
4 wouldn't be here. Both my parents were
5 graduates at a time when obviously it was --
6 tuition was free.
7 And I think some of those buildings
8 they took classes in are still there and
9 probably need some of this capital
10 improvement. So I appreciate your work
11 there.
12 A question about Brooklyn College.
13 There's a program, Lifelong Learning, which
14 has allowed seniors to come and take classes,
15 really courses. It's not -- they run their
16 own courses, lectures. And it was very
17 popular. They lost their space at Brooklyn
18 College. So perhaps we can work together to
19 find a way for them to have some space.
20 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: What is the
21 name of the program?
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: It's called
23 Brooklyn Lifelong Learning.
24 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Thank you.
251
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So it was local
2 people would come and teach a program, teach
3 a class. They were using the space on the
4 campus, and it was very worthwhile.
5 And I know you didn't tell me the
6 numbers of how many students I have, but I
7 know I have some of the highest numbers of
8 CUNY students in Brooklyn.
9 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Four thousand
10 two hundred and seventy-seven.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: And they are
12 very good students. And I have -- I think
13 most of my staff actually are CUNY graduates,
14 for either undergraduate or actually with
15 master's degrees. So I know the kind of
16 quality of learning that goes on over the
17 years at CUNY. And obviously we're committed
18 to make sure that continues for the next
19 generation of students.
20 Thank you for being here.
21 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Thank you for
22 your support. I'll look at the information
23 about that program and get back to you. And
24 thank you also for being such a great higher
252
1 ed ally over the years.
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So that's it.
5 We're finished with questions. And to the
6 extent that there are any follow-ups, we'll
7 share them with all the members.
8 CHANCELLOR RODRIGUEZ: Thank you.
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Our next
10 witness, as people are leaving, is going to
11 be the New York State Education Department's
12 Interim Commissioner, Shannon Tahoe.
13 (Pause.)
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Commissioner,
15 why don't you begin. Thank you.
16 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Good
17 afternoon, Chairs Krueger, Weinstein,
18 Stavisky and Glick and members of the Senate
19 and Assembly here today. My name is Shannon
20 Tahoe, and I am the Interim Commissioner of
21 Education.
22 I am joined today at the table by
23 Senior Deputy Commissioner for P-20 John
24 D'Agati, Chief Financial Officer Phyllis
253
1 Morris, Deputy Commissioner for the Office of
2 the Professions Doug Lentivech, and Deputy
3 Commissioner for the Office of Adult Career
4 and Continuing Education Services Kevin
5 Smith.
6 You have my full testimony before you.
7 Before I begin, I also want to welcome
8 members of the Board of Regents who are in
9 the audience today, including Chancellor
10 Rosa, Regent Cashin, and Regent Mead.
11 The Regents' priorities in higher
12 education are laser-focused on equity and
13 access to postsecondary education
14 opportunities, particularly for our
15 underrepresented students. We know from
16 multiple indicators college completion leads
17 to better employment opportunities and higher
18 income.
19 In order to support this critical
20 priority of increasing equity and access, as
21 you can see on slides 3 through 7, the
22 Regents recommend an increase of $10 million
23 for our Higher Education Opportunity
24 Programs. These programs provide access to
254
1 postsecondary education for students who are
2 at the highest risk of either not graduating
3 from high school, not attending college, or
4 not completing a degree.
5 We were pleased to see that the
6 Executive Budget proposal included last
7 year's additional funding for these programs
8 in this year's proposed amount. Over 39,000
9 students are served by one of these programs.
10 We would reach even more students across the
11 state with these additional recommended
12 investments.
13 Under our CSTEP and STEP programs, for
14 example, we would provide students with
15 opportunities to participate in STEM-based
16 research, internships or exploratory career
17 opportunities at area facilities.
18 We appreciate the strong support you
19 have demonstrated for our Opportunity
20 Programs. These programs work, and your
21 support and funding has made a difference.
22 Another Regents priority proposal
23 aimed at increasing equity and access,
24 described on Slide 8, is to enhance supports
255
1 and services for postsecondary success of the
2 over 75,000 individuals with disabilities
3 attending New York State institutions of
4 higher education.
5 The Regents are requesting a
6 $15 million grant program that would be
7 designed to supplement funding for support
8 and accommodations of individuals with
9 disabilities, support summer college
10 preparation programs to assist individuals
11 with disabilities with the transition to
12 college, provide full- and part-time college
13 faculty and staff with disability training,
14 and improve the identification process of
15 individuals with disabilities and enhanced
16 data collection capabilities.
17 Another priority related to ensuring
18 equity and access in higher education is on
19 page 9, the Readers Aid Program, which
20 provides funding to institutions of higher
21 education on behalf of students who are
22 blind, deaf, deaf-blind or hard of hearing.
23 Thanks to your support, in 2017 the
24 Legislature and Executive provided an
256
1 increase in the amount of the maximum
2 reimbursement rate per student and allowed
3 for the purchase of assistive technology.
4 Last year over 200 students from 28 colleges
5 and the universities received Readers Aid
6 funding.
7 Unfortunately, the current annual
8 appropriation for this program is
9 insufficient to meet the needs of the
10 increased number of eligible students. That
11 is why the Regents are requesting a total of
12 $1 million to serve approximately
13 400 students per year. We need to start this
14 critical conversation of how, as a state, we
15 can better support individuals with
16 disabilities to be successful in college.
17 Continuing with our focus on equity
18 and access, one of the top Regents priorities
19 is funding programs that support teacher
20 diversity in our classrooms. This means
21 ensuring access to higher education as well
22 as recruiting, preparing and supporting
23 students in teacher and leader preparation
24 programs and thereafter.
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1 Aligned with the department's December
2 2019 Educator Diversity Report, on Slides 10
3 and 11 we emphasize the need for our teaching
4 workforce to be as diverse as our student
5 population. Our Teacher Opportunity Corps II
6 program has been funded by the My Brother's
7 Keeper initiative, and we want to thank all
8 of you again, especially Speaker Heastie.
9 We are asking for $3 million in new
10 funding to establish a separately
11 appropriated Teacher Opportunity Corps II
12 program to increase the number of certified
13 educators of color, who are underrepresented
14 and underserved in the teaching profession.
15 This program also aims to better prepare
16 teachers to address the learning needs of
17 students in high-need districts and to become
18 culturally responsive and sustaining
19 educators.
20 To address teacher diversity needs,
21 the Board of Regents also recommends that
22 $2.5 million in funding be provided to create
23 innovative birth to Grade 3 teacher
24 preparation programs and birth to Grade 12
258
1 teacher leader programs. These programs
2 would better serve as transformational models
3 through collaborations between institutions
4 of higher education, school districts,
5 community-based organizations, and health and
6 mental health systems. This funding would
7 provide opportunities for approximately
8 240 individuals from New York State
9 historically underrepresented and underserved
10 populations to become teachers and leaders.
11 Finally, in order to eliminate
12 potential barriers and to promote teacher
13 diversity and encourage more candidates to
14 join the teaching profession, the Regents
15 have prioritized, on Slide 12, $1.2 million
16 in new funding to provide more fee-waiver
17 vouchers to assist economically disadvantaged
18 students to pay for their certification
19 exams.
20 As you negotiate this budget, please
21 remember that our workforce and the workforce
22 pipeline are the state's most important
23 investment. A state-of-the-art workforce
24 pipeline does not depend only on traditional
259
1 college pathways. Ensuring equity and access
2 to other successful pathways for our
3 out-of-school youth and adults is also a
4 priority of the Board of Regents.
5 As you can see on Slide 13, the
6 Regents are requesting a $3 million
7 investment in Bridge Programs to enable
8 out-of-school youth and adults to obtain
9 essential basic skills, a high school
10 equivalency diploma, industry-recognized
11 credentials, and preparation for
12 postsecondary study and careers.
13 The programs would consist of
14 partnerships between an adult education
15 program and colleges or training providers of
16 demonstrated effectiveness. This proposal
17 could pilot up to 10 Bridge Programs across
18 New York State.
19 Ensuring public health and safety of
20 New Yorkers and enhancing customer service in
21 our Office of Professions are the final
22 priority areas of the Board of Regents that I
23 would like to highlight today. On Slides 14
24 through 18, we provide you with updates on
260
1 the efforts of the Office of Professions as
2 our work and responsibilities continue to
3 grow in this area.
4 In the last two years, the Office of
5 Professions has seen a 10 percent increase in
6 the number of new licenses issued. Notably,
7 this included approximately 6,000 additional
8 applicants from non-registered programs whose
9 education must be individually reviewed,
10 increasing this workload by 50 percent.
11 These increased responsibilities and
12 complex reviews, coupled with challenges in
13 hiring, training and retaining qualified
14 staff to replace positions lost due to
15 retirement, promotion and previous budget
16 constraints, have made it challenging to
17 timely meet the growing demands placed on
18 this office.
19 I want to bring particular attention
20 to this office's modernization and electronic
21 licensing activities on Slides 17 and 18,
22 which, when fully implemented, will help to
23 improve cycle times in both licensure and
24 discipline.
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1 In 2009, the Legislature and Executive
2 approved a 15 percent registration fee
3 increase so that we could replace a
4 30-year-old COBOL-based licensing system and
5 enhance our customer service. We have begun
6 that work and are using these funds to
7 develop user-friendly online applications in
8 nearly 50 professions, implement a more
9 robust call center, and begin the complex
10 work to replace our antiquated mainframe
11 system.
12 We ask for your support in the
13 Executive Budget proposal to allow us to use
14 $25.4 million in capital spending authority
15 to continue these efforts.
16 Finally, on Slide 21, we ask the
17 Legislature to pass and the Governor to enact
18 the enhanced disciplinary authority bill, to
19 ensure we can protect patients and consumers
20 in a timely manner while still maintaining
21 important due process protections.
22 This bill would provide the department
23 with similar authority already granted to the
24 Department of Health's OPMC to authorize the
262
1 commissioner or his or her designee to order
2 a temporary suspension of practice privileges
3 when there is an imminent danger to public
4 health or safety, require all licensed
5 professionals to report moral character
6 issues upon application for licensure, and
7 require that all licensed professionals
8 report to SED any record of conviction of a
9 crime in a timely manner.
10 Before I take your questions, we want
11 to thank you all for the opportunity to
12 discuss our priorities and for your support
13 last year. We look forward to working with
14 you again on our shared goals and in this
15 important discussion.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
17 We go to Deborah Glick.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: First of all,
19 thank you very much for your very
20 comprehensive presentation. Lots of the
21 questions that one might ask -- how many
22 programs, how many students -- you have in
23 there, as well as the additional requests
24 that you need.
263
1 Overall, since the Opportunity
2 Programs you've asked for additional
3 resources in a number of these areas. And
4 you may not have this immediately, but how
5 many slots are you short in these different
6 areas? You're asking for a certain amount of
7 money so you can add -- I don't know if it's
8 students or programs, so --
9 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Sure. So
10 we have four Higher Education Opportunity
11 Programs. First is our Liberty Partnerships
12 Program. We're requesting a $2 million
13 increase to provide projects with the
14 opportunity to serve an additional 1300
15 students for Liberty Partnerships.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Okay. I see
17 that's down in the -- thank you.
18 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Yes.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: The student ed
20 programs, some years ago linked to the
21 measuring teachers by student test scores --
22 one of the things that got slipped in was the
23 requirement that in order to get into a
24 master's program in order to be a teacher,
264
1 you needed a 3.0. We put in a bill to
2 eliminate that because, you know, we think
3 that there probably are people with a 3.2 who
4 really can communicate information to
5 students. But somebody who may have taken a
6 tough course early in their career in
7 college, maybe they have a 2.8, but they are
8 dynamic, they're engaging, they're
9 motivating -- and yet they can't get into a
10 program.
11 Do you have any thoughts about whether
12 there's going to be a teacher shortage, if we
13 have a teacher shortage, if we are making it
14 impossible for qualified students to get into
15 these programs to address a teacher shortage?
16 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: I think
17 this is one of the main priorities of the
18 Board of Regents and the department for this
19 coming year.
20 I think teacher shortages is a major
21 issue. I think it's a statewide issue. I
22 also think it's a regional issue. We're
23 seeing certain shortage areas at the state
24 level that are common across like special ed
265
1 and bilingual. We also have individual areas
2 in pockets of the state where they have
3 individualized regional needs and regional
4 shortages in certain subject and
5 certification areas.
6 One of the things we're working on
7 internally is talking to our higher education
8 partners about ways in which they can
9 communicate directly with school districts in
10 their regional areas to say where are your
11 demands, or where are your needs? Let us
12 support you in these areas and try to work on
13 creating teacher education pipelines for the
14 shortages that exist in those regionalized
15 areas. This is something the department is
16 very committed to.
17 We're also engaging in a workgroup
18 across the state, and the ECB is about to put
19 out recommendations on the teacher shortage
20 issue. We're looking at those
21 recommendations and creating a statewide
22 workgroup with all of our stakeholders to
23 come up with solutions on specific statewide
24 issues as well as how to resolve those
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1 regional issues that are appearing throughout
2 the state.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: I think that
4 there was some desire not to erode standards.
5 I think the department sort of went to war a
6 little bit, if you'll pardon the expression,
7 over allowing charter schools to just certify
8 their own teachers.
9 So do you see some sort of disconnect
10 between this policy? Have you had outreach
11 from campuses around the state complaining
12 about this restriction on accepting students
13 based on the 3.0?
14 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Right.
15 On the 3.0 specifically, I'll refer to John
16 D'Agati, our deputy commissioner for P-20, on
17 that.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Good to see you
19 back, John.
20 (Laughter.)
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER D'AGATI: Thank
22 you, Assemblymember.
23 If I recall correctly, the 3.0
24 provided -- it was put in place, but it also
267
1 provided an opportunity to -- if you had --
2 it did provide flexibility in that if you had
3 students who didn't quite meet that, you had
4 like a 15 percent -- 15 percent of your
5 admits did not have to meet that requirement.
6 So I have not -- recently I have not
7 heard that as being a barrier to getting into
8 graduate programs. I haven't -- nobody's
9 reached out to me to say directly that that's
10 causing people not to be able to get in.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Okay. You have
12 a lot of information here on the e-licensing.
13 That -- there is some additional capital
14 provided. What more will that do?
15 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: The
16 $25.4 million in additional spending
17 authority, that's through fees we've already
18 collected through our registration and
19 licensure fees. It's just a spending.
20 That additional fee, we are looking to
21 do a comprehensive OP modernization of our
22 website, our application process. What we're
23 looking to do is have an automated system
24 wherein essentially applicants for any of our
268
1 over 50 licensed professions can go online,
2 they can upload their different, varying
3 educational documents, experience documents.
4 And there would almost be -- the computer is
5 going -- it's a system where it's going to be
6 able to automatically, essentially, be able
7 to tell whether or not they've met the
8 licensure requirements in some of these
9 cases, which will streamline our backlogs and
10 our situations where we have, you know,
11 significant delays in the licensure process.
12 We're also creating a comprehensive
13 new call center and redoing our complete
14 website modernization for the Office of
15 Professions. So it would do all of those
16 things.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: I suspect that
18 this will be an answer from Doug.
19 There are several proposals in the
20 Executive Budget regarding changes to
21 professions that would normally go through
22 the Legislature. There was an article just
23 last week, I think, in the New York Times,
24 fairly extensively, about concerns that
269
1 pharmacists, particularly those who work for
2 chains -- which in a lot of places are the
3 only game in town -- are concerned about the
4 metrics that are being used. They have to
5 have X number of contacts with people, they
6 have to produce X number of refills. Doctors
7 are saying, I don't want to refill that
8 prescription, and they're getting these calls
9 from pharmacists who are required to make the
10 calls.
11 And the proposals focused on pharmacy
12 seem to expand the number of people who a
13 pharmacist would have to supervise.
14 Are there any concerns that the
15 department has about proceeding in the budget
16 with proposals that -- we've hardly measured
17 the changes we made with pharmacy techs in
18 the last session. Do you have any concerns
19 about we're moving too quickly on some of
20 this?
21 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Yes,
22 Chair Glick. And I think that's -- thank you
23 for bringing that up.
24 I think some of these proposals are
270
1 really included in the budget proposal which
2 actually need more intensive thought. And we
3 have some technical concerns with a lot of
4 the Office of Professions bills that are
5 currently embedded in the Executive proposal,
6 and we would work with the Legislature on
7 solutions to those problems.
8 But we do find that sometimes it's
9 best to put it out of the budget
10 conversation.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: So you would
12 recommend that the Legislature sort of say,
13 you know, let's have this conversation
14 post-budget and vet these.
15 Have you had any opportunity to review
16 what we've already done in terms of pharmacy
17 techs?
18 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Yes, we
19 have. Currently the pharmacy techs are
20 limited to the Article 28 institutions, and
21 the Executive proposal bill would expand that
22 and allow registered pharm techs outside of
23 the Article 28 facilities.
24 This is something that we're greatly
271
1 concerned with. We're just getting off the
2 ground with initial enactment of the pharmacy
3 tech bill for Article 28 facilities, and we'd
4 like an opportunity to see how that goes
5 first before expanding that any further.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Are there other
7 issues that impact your department that
8 where -- that in the course of the budget,
9 other than these dollar figures that you've
10 included, that you think we should be paying
11 attention to?
12 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Yes. I
13 think any time the Legislature adds a new
14 program or a requirement on SED, we would
15 respectfully request a 5 percent set-aside of
16 funds for those programs to be administered
17 so that the department could have, you know,
18 sufficient funds to administratively provide
19 the oversight and monitoring that are
20 necessary to implement these new programs
21 with fidelity.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you.
23 And I just want to thank you -- the
24 staff is always very available, and they're
272
1 very helpful in working through some of the
2 questions that we have or getting us an
3 answer if they are, you know, unable to do it
4 personally. So I want to thank you for the
5 close association.
6 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Thank
7 you, Chair Glick.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
9 We now go to the Senate Higher Ed
10 chair, Toby Stavisky.
11 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
12 And thank you for what you're doing
13 during the -- I guess you could almost call
14 it the interregnum. I think the department
15 has been really responsive and helpful on so
16 many occasions. And perhaps we forget to say
17 thank you, but we do appreciate it.
18 And I too have concerns about the
19 question of pharmacy techs, because we did
20 pass the bill and it was chaptered last year,
21 but it dealt only with hospital pharmacy
22 techs. And in fact, until that time, there
23 was no definition of what a pharmacy tech is
24 or could do, what their scope could be, and
273
1 how many a licensed pharmacists could
2 supervise.
3 And I'm a little troubled by the
4 proposal in -- I believe it's the Health and
5 Mental Hygiene Law, which does talk about a
6 pharmacist supervising six technicians. And
7 I think your position --
8 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Yes, we
9 share those concerns. And we would like to
10 actually get the chapter that was enacted
11 last year off the ground before expanding it
12 in any way so we can determine the impact of,
13 you know, the new profession itself.
14 SENATOR STAVISKY: Without question.
15 And that took a long period of time of
16 negotiation with all of the stakeholders.
17 And to put it in the budget like this I think
18 is maybe doing our consumers a disservice.
19 I have a couple of other questions.
20 What's not in your presentation,
21 incidentally, is the issue of the CPAs. And
22 I was curious because it talks about the
23 $300 fee. Would that fee go to SED or into
24 the General Fund?
274
1 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Thank you
2 for raising that very important point,
3 Senator.
4 That provision for the public
5 licensure accounting firms -- obviously we've
6 been working with the Legislature over the
7 last couple of years on that proposal and
8 will continue to do so and provide our
9 comments and support on that proposal.
10 However, we are very concerned with
11 the fee, because the fee will be going right
12 to the General Fund, even though the State
13 Education Department is responsible for
14 administering and overseeing the public
15 licensure firms. So that is something that
16 is very concerning to us. Thank you.
17 SENATOR STAVISKY: And do you see
18 associated costs that would be incurred by
19 the department as a result of that fee,
20 implementation of that fee?
21 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Yes,
22 there will be significant costs on the
23 department for overseeing that program
24 without -- if we don't receive those fees.
275
1 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you. You
2 didn't mention it in your presentation.
3 Getting back to the pharmacy tech
4 issue -- and I saw the story in the New York
5 Times, it was last Saturday. And it was, I
6 know, a front page and then a two-page
7 full-page spread in the Times about the
8 mistakes that are being made, particularly in
9 the chain pharmacies.
10 Do you want to comment? I'm not sure
11 we have that problem in New York; it was
12 primarily reported throughout the country.
13 But it's certainly something that could
14 develop here. Has anybody seen the story
15 and --
16 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Yes, we
17 have seen the stories. And I will actually
18 ask Doug Lentivech, our deputy commissioner
19 for the Office of Professions, to respond to
20 that.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LENTIVECH: Thank
22 you. We see pharmacy discipline cases on a
23 regular basis in New York, as they do in
24 every state.
276
1 And, you know, it's a very challenging
2 profession, because what you go to a
3 pharmacist for is being exact and detailed in
4 what you're asking for. It's like if you
5 have a prescription for a certain medication
6 and for a certain dosage of that medication,
7 you want that dosage and you want that
8 medication to be in the vial. And most of us
9 are not sophisticated enough to protect
10 ourselves, so that's what we look for.
11 As the demands of the practice, of
12 the -- and in pharmacies, these are corporate
13 practitioners. These are not PCs or PLLCs,
14 these are corporate practitioners. And
15 they're very expansive and very large. And
16 to be competitive in our society, this is a
17 profession that really, really sustains huge
18 demands on their professional time. And we
19 see these regularly in our disciplinary
20 system, and I don't know that it's different
21 in New York. But it's something we've been
22 concerned about for a long time.
23 And I think that the proposals before
24 us are something you've got to look at in
277
1 terms of those constraints are being put on
2 our licensees.
3 SENATOR STAVISKY: And I assume, on a
4 totally different issue -- but I'm sure you
5 remember discussions during budget hearings
6 of the processing time for some of these
7 applications. I assume that the time has
8 increased dramatically, am I correct, the
9 time is takes SED to process?
10 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: So that
11 is something we're looking at very seriously,
12 Senator. It's something that we have
13 actually shifted resources to. Where we have
14 backlogs in our Office of Professions, we're
15 actually taking staff from other units and
16 targeting them toward the backlogs. We've
17 been paying overtime for individuals to get
18 through the backlog.
19 As we stated before, with the
20 $25.4 million investment in our OP
21 Modernization Act, we believe that that's
22 going to dramatically reduce the online
23 processing because it will all be automated
24 instead of paper.
278
1 Also, we have noticed a significant
2 increase in the number -- we went from 10,000
3 to 16,000 applications from non-New York-
4 registered programs, so individuals coming in
5 from out of state or a foreign country, where
6 it takes a significant amount of time to
7 review those educational credentials to
8 ensure that they meet the requirements of our
9 licensure requirements. This takes -- it's a
10 very timely process, and so that has been a
11 dramatic increase in the number of
12 applications too.
13 But like I said, this is a priority
14 for the department. We are targeting
15 resources in that area, doing everything we
16 possibly can to address the backlogs, because
17 we know individuals deserve timely feedback
18 on their applications.
19 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you. Because
20 I represent -- well, Queens County is a
21 county with a lot of immigrants and a lot of
22 people who practice various professions in
23 other parts of the world. They come here to
24 live, and it is important to process their
279
1 applications in a timely fashion.
2 Two more quick questions. Number one,
3 the time it takes to process approval
4 programs for new programs at colleges. I
5 spoke to Commissioner D'Agati -- and it's
6 great to see you back -- about this just
7 before -- I guess it was last year. And
8 others have complained that it takes colleges
9 a long time to get approval on new programs.
10 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: This is
11 another issue which sometimes people forget
12 exactly what we're trying to make sure. We
13 want to ensure that the students that are in
14 these programs receive a quality education
15 and that their tuition is going to good use.
16 And sometimes when we're receiving
17 these new program approvals, we're looking at
18 it from the bottom up. We're looking at the
19 entire curriculum for every program that they
20 wish to offer, the resources within the
21 institution to ensure that they have the
22 stability that the institution needs to best
23 serve those students. We're looking at the
24 administration, the faculty, to make sure
280
1 that they're being taught by competent,
2 qualified teachers. This is an extensive
3 review. We're also doing site visits at the
4 campuses to ensure that what's happening on
5 the ground is what's reflected in their
6 application.
7 So yes, it does take a significant --
8 you know, it's a timely and detailed process.
9 But again, we have actually streamlined our
10 process in the last couple of years under
11 Leslie Templeman, our director in that unit.
12 And I think -- I'm really proud of the
13 efforts that that unit has made in improving
14 their times on these program approvals.
15 But yes, you're right, oftentimes some
16 of them do take a longer amount of time.
17 We're going back and forth for additional
18 information from the individuals and the
19 applicants and the institutions of higher
20 education. Sometimes we don't get all the
21 information we need up-front and we have to
22 keep going back and forth with the
23 institution until we get what we need to
24 ensure that that's a quality program for
281
1 these kids.
2 SENATOR STAVISKY: It was suggested
3 that there be a blind kind of study with
4 names and specifics redacted, and then use
5 volunteer administrators at various colleges
6 for approval or preliminary approval to cut
7 down on some of the time-consuming approval
8 process. And I had spoken to Commissioner
9 D'Agati about this.
10 And I still think it's a way of making
11 sure that nobody knows the college
12 involved -- because you certainly don't want
13 to have your competition, so to speak,
14 approved. But on the other hand, you do want
15 to approve the applications. And I think we
16 should talk further about this.
17 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: This is
18 something we would be a little concerned
19 with. We'd want to make sure of consistency
20 in the review of the applications and ensure,
21 as you indicated, that your competitors
22 aren't reviewing your application. So we
23 would want to make sure of that.
24 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you very
282
1 much. And welcome to the Regents.
2 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Thank you
3 so much.
4 SENATOR STAVISKY: Tomorrow we're
5 interviewing future Regents.
6 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Yes.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
8 Senator Seward.
9 SENATOR SEWARD: Thank you.
10 I just wanted to follow up on the
11 question that Senator Stavisky has been
12 asking about, the approval process for new
13 programs for our colleges. Is there an
14 average time frame for new program approval
15 that you can share with us? I know obviously
16 it may vary, depending. But this is a --
17 continues to be a concern that we hear from
18 colleges, is the length of time.
19 And do you have an average time frame
20 for approvals?
21 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: I
22 don't -- I think it would depend on the type
23 of program approval and for which specific
24 type of registered program.
283
1 But I will defer to John D'Agati, our
2 deputy commissioner for higher education. He
3 may have more insight.
4 SENATOR SEWARD: I guess what I'm
5 asking is, has the time frame improved or
6 been shortened?
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER D'AGATI: I think,
8 since we've streamlined the application
9 process, it has improved significantly. I
10 think where we -- as Commissioner Tahoe
11 mentioned, some applications come to us
12 incomplete, some are more complicated.
13 And also, to make a distinction when
14 it's a program that is being reviewed by the
15 Office of Professions where licensure is
16 involved, there's even a more detailed review
17 than what we would do as a general, you know,
18 English program, for example. So there are
19 distinctions to be made in terms of the
20 application and the processes that it goes
21 through.
22 But, you know, some applications
23 are -- come in, they're complete, and they're
24 reviewed within 30 days, and it goes through.
284
1 Others take somewhat longer. Others, because
2 there's, you know, a lack of information, we
3 need more detail, or there's concerns about
4 who's teaching the courses, whether or not
5 they're qualified or not, they take longer.
6 SENATOR SEWARD: Thank you, John. And
7 it seems just like yesterday you were behind
8 us here whispering in our ears.
9 (Laughter.)
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER D'AGATI: I know.
11 SENATOR SEWARD: One final question on
12 proprietary colleges. Are there new
13 regulations being considered in regard to our
14 proprietary colleges?
15 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: We have
16 heard there may be new regulations. We have
17 not seen those regulations. Obviously, it
18 would depend on the details of what those
19 regulations said, you know, what our position
20 would be on those.
21 However, I would say that our
22 proprietary colleges -- I think we have 24 in
23 the state at this moment. And the graduation
24 rate at our proprietary colleges is at I
285
1 think 44 or 45 percent, which is higher than
2 the nationwide average for proprietary
3 schools.
4 As we've indicated before, our program
5 approval for our proprietary schools is just
6 as robust as any other higher education
7 institution in this state. So we believe
8 State Ed has, you know, significant oversight
9 and accountability for these institutions.
10 So we would be, you know, wary of any
11 proposal, you know, as to what that would
12 look like. But I would need to see the
13 details of any regulation first.
14 SENATOR SEWARD: Where would those
15 regulations come from, if not from you?
16 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: That's a
17 great question. I would think that they
18 would be coming from SED if there were going
19 to be regulations on this. But we have heard
20 something, as you've mentioned, but we
21 haven't seen them yet.
22 SENATOR SEWARD: Okay. Thank you.
23 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Thank
24 you.
286
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
2 Assemblywoman Simon.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
4 Thank you very much.
5 And welcome to your first budget
6 hearing.
7 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Thank
8 you.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: I wanted to
10 thank you, first of all, for requesting the
11 additional funding to help provide supports
12 and services to students with disabilities in
13 New York schools. That's an area that has
14 been seriously underfunded for many, many
15 years, and we really need that money. So I
16 want to thank you for doing that.
17 I also want to ask you a couple of
18 questions about teacher education. We have
19 identified and we know that there is a real
20 lack of education in our schools of education
21 on how to teach reading to our teachers. And
22 this is an effort that I've been working on
23 for some time, and I know I've worked with
24 the department in connection with a bill a
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1 few years ago requiring that students with
2 dyslexia be able to use that word in their
3 eligibility documents, IEPs, et cetera.
4 It's very clear that there are two
5 issues that we need to address. One is early
6 identification. And one good way to do that
7 is to have teachers recognize the kinds of
8 errors students are making so that they can
9 help target instruction and identify those
10 students.
11 And the other is making sure that we
12 actually give our teachers the tools they
13 need in order to do that job. Fifteen to
14 20 percent of kids have dyslexia or related
15 learning disabilities, but they're in the
16 same first and second grade, the same
17 kindergarten, and the teachers don't know how
18 to help them.
19 So I would like to know what efforts
20 the department is undertaking to ensure that
21 the training that is given to teachers in New
22 York State's teacher education/preparation
23 programs are addressing the science of
24 reading and how we teach reading in this
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1 state.
2 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: This is
3 something we're actually looking at right
4 now, and our Early Child Blue Ribbon
5 Committee has been evaluating the work in our
6 birth to Grade 2 certificates in our teacher
7 preparation programs in early learning. So I
8 think this is something we'll be looking at
9 as we're moving forward with our blue ribbon
10 recommendations for early child learning.
11 This is something -- I agree with you,
12 this is extremely important. We've also --
13 the department has issued guidance or is
14 working on guidance on dyslexia and the
15 identification of dyslexia. So this is
16 something our office of Special Ed is
17 currently involved with. And as I said, on
18 the teacher ed side, this is something we
19 will be reviewing as part of our early child
20 workgroup recommendations and what to do in
21 our birth to Grade 2 pathways.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you. I
23 want to just stress, if I can, that while
24 teachers in special education need this
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1 training as well, it's general ed teachers,
2 because that's where the kids are so often.
3 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: You're
4 absolutely right.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: And just
6 ensuring that the work that is done is really
7 consistent with the science as we know it in
8 terms of the way the brain works, and that so
9 many kids need direct instruction in reading
10 who are not necessarily students with
11 disabilities but still need the same methods
12 used in order for them to learn.
13 Thank you.
14 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: You're
15 absolutely right. Thank you for bringing
16 this to our attention. And we will
17 definitely consider this as we move forward
18 with our changes to the birth to Grade 2
19 programs. Thank you.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you very
21 much.
22 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Thank
23 you.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: To the Senate.
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1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Thank
2 you for being here. I'm sorry I ran out for
3 a few minutes.
4 So you run through your testimony, you
5 list out a number of different programs for
6 low-income students going to our colleges and
7 STEM programs and an additional million here,
8 an additional 2 million -- very small amounts
9 of money.
10 Do you agree that college has proved
11 to be the most successful model for helping
12 people move into jobs and out of poverty?
13 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: I
14 think that's an interesting question. And I
15 think that's something that we're looking
16 at -- I mean, obviously we know and the data
17 reflects, and I think it's reflected in our
18 slides that we provided today, that students
19 who graduate with a high school diploma or a
20 high school equivalency diploma receive
21 1.5 percent more wage earnings than those who
22 do not. And those with an associate's
23 degree, it's 2 percent more -- or two times
24 more.
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1 So I think that there is some evidence
2 to show that going through college, you know,
3 you earn higher wage limitations.
4 However, I think there's other
5 pathways as well for students, and that's
6 something we're considering as part of our
7 graduation measures project is, you know,
8 what are the additional pathways or what does
9 it mean to have an meaningful high school
10 diploma. And not all kids, as we know, are
11 geared to go to college, and they may have
12 other additional pathways that may suit their
13 needs and keep them in school for longer, you
14 know, through our CTE pathways or additional
15 pathways.
16 So this is something we're actually
17 looking at and reviewing right now with the
18 Regents' graduation measures project.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: But again -- so
20 maybe I asked it slightly wrong, because I'm
21 just pointing out you're talking about
22 serving 500 kids with a million dollars,
23 serving 4450 kids with 4.5 million.
24 Next week, if you want to come back
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1 for our Economic Development Hearing, you'll
2 hear me asking why are we spending a million
3 dollars a job, $500 million for 500 jobs at
4 an LED factory in upstate New York. And I
5 just wanted to highlight for the record --
6 not that you have to answer -- that I think
7 there's something very wrong with our
8 priorities when you have to literally beg us
9 for nickels and dimes for models that have
10 been successful in higher ed, and through our
11 economic development budgets we blow money by
12 the billions.
13 So it's a rhetorical statement, not a
14 question --
15 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Yes,
16 thank you.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Unless you'd like
18 to jump in and go, you're right, Senator
19 Krueger, that's outrageous.
20 (Laughter.)
21 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: You're
22 absolutely right, Senator Krueger.
23 (Laughter.)
24 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: I would
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1 say that you're absolutely right. These are
2 our most successful programs. And we know
3 that these kids without these programs,
4 they're underrepresented youth who they may
5 never have gone to college, and these
6 programs keep them in college, give them the
7 remedial supports that they need while
8 they're in there, put them into summer
9 training, giving them, you know, additional
10 supports that they can graduate.
11 So thank you.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Thank
13 you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
15 We go to Assemblyman Epstein.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Hi. Good
17 afternoon, and thank you for being here for
18 so long.
19 First I want to thank you for putting
20 the priorities of $15 million in your request
21 for students with disabilities. And I wanted
22 to see what you thought that $15 million
23 would offer. Obviously we have 72,000
24 students with identifiable disabilities
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1 across the state, and there's such a huge
2 need. And I wonder, do you think
3 15 million -- what does it get you? I know
4 we haven't seen any new money for 20 years.
5 What are the needs for students with
6 disabilities right now across the state? And
7 how do we ensure that those students who have
8 disabilities can be successful and graduate
9 from college and then move on to fulfilling
10 employment?
11 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: I think
12 one of the things we're noticing is that
13 we're always worried about students with
14 disabilities in our K-12 world. And one of
15 the things is that when they get to college,
16 we still need to be worried about those
17 students with disabilities.
18 There's 75,000 individuals with
19 disabilities across this state in our higher
20 education community, and I think what we're
21 seeing is we need -- the 15 million is to do
22 a number of things. One is to ensure that we
23 have the data collection that we need to know
24 who those kids are, what types of
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1 disabilities they have, what supports are
2 needed, what are effective supports for those
3 students. The monies are also used for
4 summer training to get those kids who may not
5 have ever even thought about going to
6 college, but getting them ready to get it
7 going and giving them the pre-college
8 experience they need over the summer to get
9 them ready for college. It's also to provide
10 remedial supports and accommodations for
11 those kids once they're in school so that
12 they can be successful in college.
13 So I think it's for a number -- for
14 all of those purposes.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And 75,000, as
16 you said, students and 15 million, it doesn't
17 seem that we're -- per student, it's not a
18 lot of money. So --
19 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: It's not
20 a lot of money. If you'd like to give us
21 more, we would love that too.
22 (Laughter.)
23 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: I'm just
24 kidding.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And so I want to
2 move on to -- and I would love to give you
3 more, so I -- you know, obviously we're not
4 the only players in this conversation. But I
5 think it's well-needed.
6 I want to talk more about disclosure
7 of information you mentioned from proprietary
8 schools, and the government might be coming
9 forward with regulations. But more of my
10 interest is making sure the students across
11 the state have good access to good
12 information, whether they choose to go to a
13 proprietary school, CUNY or SUNY, or a
14 nonprofit institution.
15 Do you feel like there's enough
16 information out there for people to make
17 informed choices about what the default
18 rates are three, five, 10 years out, you
19 know, what money is being spent on student
20 education versus paying for advertising, what
21 money is -- in the for-profit context, how
22 much profit is being taken out of the system?
23 I wanted to get a sense of if there's
24 enough public disclosure for students to make
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1 informed choices around decisions they're
2 making.
3 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: I think
4 more public disclosure is always best. And
5 the more transparent you can be so that
6 students know exactly where they're going and
7 what they're going to get out of their
8 educational experience, I think that's always
9 helpful.
10 I'll turn to John D'Agati as well, our
11 deputy commissioner for P-20, to see if he
12 has any additional thoughts on this.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER D'AGATI: Yeah, I
14 do believe there's a lot of information out
15 there. I worry that people don't always know
16 where to go to find it. But there is an
17 abundance of information about graduation
18 rates, about employment, about costs
19 associated with attending.
20 But oftentimes people don't know how
21 to access it. And we probably in the
22 department can help with that in trying to
23 consolidate a lot of that information and put
24 it someplace where it's easily accessible and
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1 also understandable.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: So when you say
3 put it someplace, you mean put it on your
4 website or have the universities put it on
5 theirs, or what are you thinking?
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER D'AGATI: All of
7 the above. Particularly put it on the
8 university's website and making it more
9 readily available.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Yeah, I think
11 that would be really helpful. Because I --
12 you know, I have actually a daughter in
13 college right now and a son who's in high
14 school, and for their decisions, you know,
15 they -- it wasn't readily accessible to them,
16 like what this would cost them versus like
17 how do you -- you have to compare apples to
18 apples, right, and it's really hard to do
19 that, especially for some institutions, when
20 people don't really understand the options
21 that are available and they don't have
22 parents, you know, who are fortunately
23 educated and can help them navigate the
24 system about loans, what it means, programs,
299
1 access, all those things that come up that
2 people don't really understand. So great
3 to -- happy to partner with you on that.
4 And my last question is I'm really
5 thinking about dedicated funding for public
6 education. So I know we have this dance
7 where you come ask us for money and then we
8 have to figure out if we can work with the
9 Senate and the Assembly and the Governor to
10 get a budget. What do you think about having
11 a real, dedicated funding stream to go
12 directly to institutions of higher ed and not
13 have to have this dance up here in Albany,
14 there are dedicated streams.
15 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: I will
16 defer to Phyllis Morris, our chief financial
17 officer, on that one.
18 SED CFO MORRIS: So there's pros and
19 cons to that, as with everything. If you
20 were to do that, I would just suggest having
21 something very specific in statute that -- so
22 that your intended purpose is actually
23 achievable.
24 Having the funds come to the State
300
1 Education Department for distribution, you
2 know, we can ensure that the funds are
3 distributed in a way that meets the
4 legislative intent. And so that would be the
5 only caveat we'd put on that.
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
7 Assemblywoman Hyndman.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you,
9 Madam Chair.
10 Commissioner Tahoe, I think you're
11 doing a tremendous job for someone who's
12 interim acting, so you're very knowledgeable.
13 Mr. D'Agati, I thought you left.
14 (Laughter.)
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER D'AGATI: I
16 thought I did too.
17 (Laughter.)
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: They pull you
19 back in.
20 So this is more of an observation over
21 the years. I note that your proprietary
22 school supervision is under access, under
23 Deputy Commissioner Smith. It used to be
24 higher ed.
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1 And the reason why I'm bringing this
2 up is because I know that when it comes to
3 that sector, there's a lot of misinformation,
4 there's a lot of lumping proprietary schools,
5 non-degree-granting, into the degree-granting
6 proprietary school sector.
7 And how would we discuss or have an
8 opportunity to discuss putting that back
9 under higher ed? Just because a lot of the
10 legislators don't really know about that
11 sector until there's a problem. Not you,
12 Chair Glick. But a lot of us don't -- I
13 do -- a lot of members don't always know
14 about that sector till there's a problem.
15 And it is postsecondary. We're
16 talking about adults, those who are -- maybe
17 have received a TASC instead of the GED, and
18 those who are looking to change careers. The
19 information they provide, the amount of jobs
20 that stay in New York State because people
21 have further education. That's something
22 that used to be under higher ed, and I would
23 really like to talk about how do we get it
24 back under higher ed. I see Dr. Owen is here
302
1 too, so I understand, you know, that this is
2 a particular area of interest and it's not
3 under -- and we don't get to really
4 scrutinize that sector and talk about it as
5 colleagues, about what those schools are
6 doing and how they're educating our residents
7 here in New York State.
8 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: I think
9 you're right, we do receive a lot of
10 different questions regarding the differences
11 between our BPSS schools and our proprietary
12 schools and our proprietary colleges.
13 They're two very different things.
14 And so traditionally, you know -- and
15 I will defer to Kevin on this, obviously,
16 because he may have more history than I do on
17 this issue. But we can definitely work with
18 you on this.
19 But like I said, they are two very
20 different things. They're -- you know, adult
21 education has traditionally been seen as in
22 our access unit, and that is something where
23 we think of these licensed private career
24 schools as more adult education and getting
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1 them toward careers, where the colleges and
2 universities are somewhat in a separate world
3 that are higher education, and that's how
4 they've been treated.
5 But this is something we can
6 definitely explore with you moving forward.
7 But I would defer --
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: I also bring
9 it up because you talk about -- in one of
10 these you talk about alternative pathways.
11 And so I think as New York State, as we've
12 grown and evolved, we're seeing that a lot of
13 students who go and get a four-year degree
14 may not get a job in that career. Right?
15 And whatever debt or whatever issues that
16 they are dealing with, then they look to that
17 sector to change their career or get a job or
18 make -- the shorter-term training gets them
19 into the workforce.
20 So that's why I do think -- it is
21 different, but we're talking about adults,
22 and we recognize adults as those who are 18
23 who may not go to college and use those
24 schools in order to get into the workforce,
304
1 and may go on later -- to get an income, go
2 on later and then decide to go to a four-year
3 degree-granting institution later. That's
4 why.
5 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: You're
6 bringing up a very good point. I mean, and
7 this is something that we can definitely talk
8 about later. And I don't know if Kevin has
9 any additional thoughts on this.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER SMITH: Well, only
11 to say I know you're not suggesting that you
12 want to move it to higher ed because I'm
13 doing a bad job with it.
14 (Laughter.)
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: No, no. Not
16 at all.
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER SMITH: Just to
18 give you a sense of size and scope, 391
19 licensed career schools, non-degree, over
20 200,000 students. Programs, career programs
21 ranging from coding -- which is growing
22 astronomically every day in the New York City
23 metropolitan area and across the state -- a
24 full range of allied health programs, dog
305
1 grooming, cosmetology. You name it, we do it
2 in the proprietary schools sector.
3 It is an important postsecondary
4 destination. I wish all of our school
5 counselors would recognize the opportunity to
6 send and advise students to attend those
7 programs.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly?
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
11 Assemblywoman Glick to close.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Just to go back
13 to the potential or existing teacher
14 shortage, what are -- and you say you're
15 having conversations with regional partners
16 about what kind of shortages they're facing
17 and so forth.
18 What more can we be doing to -- you
19 know, I'm not sure that people realize that
20 there is a teacher shortage if they don't
21 have kids in school. That's a large number
22 of the population. They're older, they don't
23 like paying school taxes as it is, so can't
24 we get by with fewer teachers, and so forth.
306
1 So what exactly could or should we be
2 doing to address this issue, and why do you
3 think we have a teacher shortage? What are
4 the issues that prevent people from pursuing
5 teaching?
6 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: I think
7 that's a very loaded question and one which I
8 will answer in several different ways.
9 First I'll say I think the teaching
10 profession, over the last few years,
11 unfortunately, it doesn't have the reputation
12 that it did once have. And I think that's
13 the first thing that needs to change.
14 I think the way strategically across
15 the state the way that everyone, including
16 parents, other teachers and administrators in
17 school buildings, it's all in how we think of
18 the profession and treat those teachers and
19 the way that -- the respect that they feel in
20 the classrooms and how we're raising our kids
21 to say going into the teaching profession is,
22 you know, a wonderful thing, you can help
23 other children or students.
24 I think it's the way we talk about the
307
1 teaching profession and the teaching
2 profession in general in the mindset of
3 people in the education field.
4 So I think, first thing first, we need
5 to change the way the profession is viewed in
6 public.
7 Secondly, I think that we need to --
8 State Ed is taking a look at our regulatory
9 requirements on our certification pathways to
10 see if there's ways in which we can, you
11 know, provide more flexibility, additional
12 pathways for teachers to get certified and
13 licensed in the classroom.
14 I think other ways is our fee voucher
15 program where we're asking for $1.2 million
16 in getting certification fee waivers so that
17 people -- you know, disadvantaged students
18 might be able to take those exams without
19 paying for them, because we've heard that the
20 fees are a barrier.
21 Another issue is I think we're looking
22 at our higher ed institutions and we're
23 talking to them regularly -- and John and I
24 are having conversations about really looking
308
1 at the regional needs and trying to ensure
2 that you're opening teacher ed programs where
3 there's an actual need, rather than having an
4 oversupply of early childhood programs.
5 Looking at if your regional need is
6 special ed, open a special ed program, open a
7 bilingual program. We're really trying to,
8 you know, have people in programs think about
9 ways to -- and talking about data sharing.
10 John and I have been discussing ways in which
11 we can try to share data with various
12 regional partners to say: This is where the
13 needs in your region are, take a look at
14 these needs and try to design programs that
15 meet those needs.
16 And really taking a look at -- we're
17 looking holistically at this, literally how
18 the teaching profession is viewed, our
19 certification requirements, our higher
20 education partners. We're working with our
21 stakeholder groups to say, you know, how can
22 we make -- how can we change this dynamic?
23 Because something has to change now.
24 We're in severe shortages across the state in
309
1 areas where there shouldn't be. I mean,
2 special ed and bilingual, we need certified
3 teachers who are qualified in those areas to
4 be serving those vulnerable populations of
5 students.
6 And this is something that we're very
7 concerned with and that we are addressing
8 immediately and taking steps to address
9 immediately.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Just one area
11 that came to mind was some friends who are,
12 you know, of a certain age -- and so some
13 people actually have the great wisdom to
14 semiretire or actually retire -- who have
15 been college professors, they don't have a
16 certification, they don't have -- they've
17 taught in college, but they haven't taught
18 and gotten a master's in ed. And they may be
19 in some communities that are short of
20 teachers, and there's no -- they're not, at
21 age 63 or 66, going back to get a master's in
22 education so that they can then apply to
23 teach in a school in a community that they're
24 living in.
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1 Is that an -- is there -- I don't know
2 that it's a huge number of people, but I
3 think that there are a lot of folks who want
4 to give back and --
5 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: And I
6 think that the one pathway you're just
7 describing is our Transitional G pathway,
8 which is a certification pathway that we
9 offer for faculty of higher education
10 institutions to try to lessen the teacher
11 certification requirements for those folks so
12 that they can get into the classroom.
13 Because that's something we've -- especially
14 in STEM areas, as we have it in the science,
15 technology, engineering and math areas, and I
16 think we've expanded that as well.
17 So that's something that we currently
18 have a pathway for. And if you want to refer
19 us the names of those individuals, we'd be
20 happy to help them work through this.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Yeah, maybe just
22 learning a little bit more about that.
23 Because I think there is a -- you know, a
24 cohort of people who might be available in
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1 some of these areas that -- you know, they've
2 left the city and they're, you know,
3 looking --
4 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: And I
5 think you're right, Chair Glick. And we're
6 trying to really think out of the box, like
7 what other types of people would be -- have
8 the education and experience, maybe in a
9 nontraditional pathway, but still be
10 qualified to serve those students. So that
11 is something we're thinking through
12 multiple -- you know, every way we can, into
13 which, you know, non-alternative pathways.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thanks so much.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. I
16 believe that's all the questions we have.
17 Thank you for being here --
18 INTERIM COMMISSIONER TAHOE: Thank
19 you. Thank you.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: -- with us
22 today.
23 Next we'll be hearing from New York
24 State Higher Education Services Corporation,
312
1 Dr. Guillermo Linares, president.
2 Whenever you're ready to begin.
3 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Good
4 afternoon. Chairs Krueger, Weinstein,
5 Stavisky, Glick, and to all my former
6 colleagues in the Senate and Assembly, thank
7 you for the opportunity to speak today about
8 the Governor's 2020-2021 Executive Budget
9 recommendations that impact the New York
10 State Higher Education Services Corporation,
11 HESC.
12 I'm Dr. Guillermo Linares, president
13 of HESC, and this morning I am joined by my
14 executive vice president, Elsa Magee.
15 HESC is responsible for administering
16 more than two dozen New York State student
17 financial aid and college access programs
18 that help to ease college costs for New York
19 State students and families, including the
20 first-in-the-nation Excelsior Scholarship and
21 the newly implemented Senator Jose Peralta
22 New York State DREAM Act. Collectively,
23 these programs provide nearly $1.05 billion
24 in financial aid awards to support the
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1 college costs of more than 343,000 students
2 attending public and private colleges inside
3 our state.
4 New York continues to be a leader in
5 college access, including the nation's first
6 free-tuition program, the Excelsior
7 Scholarship. This milestone program has
8 opened the doors of higher education to
9 thousands of working- and middle-class
10 families making $125,000 or less, while
11 helping students complete their degrees on
12 time.
13 In addition to providing free college
14 tuition to more than 20,400 students in its
15 first year and more than 25,000 students in
16 its second year, the numbers are coupled with
17 other promising outcomes, including higher
18 graduation rates, increases in the percentage
19 of students taking 15 credits, and higher
20 retention rates. This suggests that these
21 students will incur less total costs in
22 completing their degrees and begin their
23 careers sooner.
24 To expand this transformational
314
1 opportunity to more middle-class families,
2 the Governor has proposed to raise the
3 Excelsior eligibility threshold from $125,000
4 to $150,000 for New York's families. By
5 increasing the threshold, more than
6 230,000 -- or nearly 58 percent -- New York
7 resident students will be able to attend SUNY
8 or CUNY tuition-free.
9 But it's not just Excelsior. New York
10 spends over $1 billion each year on aid for
11 the financially neediest students through
12 TAP, Opportunity Programs, and the Aid for
13 Part-Time Studies program. New York ranks
14 first in the nation in support for
15 undergraduate need-based student financial
16 aid. And the recent implementation of the
17 Senator Jose Peralta New York State DREAM Act
18 has further opened the door to higher
19 education, allowing thousands of undocumented
20 New York State students access to TAP and all
21 other state award and scholarship programs
22 available to their citizen peers.
23 To date, nearly 75 percent of the
24 reviewed applications have been determined
315
1 eligible to receive TAP, Excelsior, ETA and
2 other New York State financial aid awards.
3 Our investment in higher education continues
4 to open doors to all New Yorkers.
5 In closing, Governor Cuomo is a
6 leading voice in protecting access to higher
7 education for everyone. Since 2012, funding
8 for higher education has increased by nearly
9 $1.8 billion -- 29 percent -- from $6 billion
10 to $7.8 billion in the fiscal year 2021
11 Executive Budget. This investment includes
12 nearly $1.3 billion for strategic programs to
13 make college more affordable and encourage
14 the best and brightest students to build
15 their future in New York.
16 The Governor's recommendations for
17 higher education programs continue to pave a
18 path to an affordable and high-quality
19 college education, and HESC is pleased to
20 play a vital role in providing New York State
21 students with a gateway to a successful
22 academic and professional career.
23 Thank you, and I would be glad to
24 answer any questions you may have.
316
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
2 Assemblywoman Glick.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you very
4 much. It's good to see you, both of you.
5 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Same here.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: How many
7 students -- I think you said that there are
8 45,000 students who have gotten into
9 Excelsior. In your testimony, in addition to
10 providing tuition to more than 20,000
11 students in the first year and more than
12 25 {sic} students in its second year -- did
13 that not refer to Excelsior?
14 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: The second
15 year is 25,000 students.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Right. The
17 first year was 20, and then it was 25. So is
18 that --
19 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Those are the
20 first two years. We're in the third year.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Right. Out of
22 those 45,000, how many students fell out of
23 the program?
24 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: We don't --
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1 we don't have that information at this point.
2 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: It's a cumulative
3 25,000 are currently receiving. Between
4 Year 1 and Year 2, some have graduated who
5 received awards in Year 1. And then we have
6 new --
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Could you just
8 pull that a little bit closer? Elsa, you're
9 such a soft-spoken person.
10 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: Sorry.
11 So the net number is 25,000 for the
12 current year, and growing for 2019-2020.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Do we know how
14 many students each year fall out of TAP
15 eligibility because they haven't maintained
16 their prescribed program of study?
17 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: We can get you
18 that data. I think what we find more with
19 TAP is that there are fewer students who are
20 failing to meet the standards for academic
21 progress than there are who just don't come
22 back for another term.
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Okay. Well, it
24 would be helpful to know how that's going.
318
1 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: Yeah, we can --
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: And also I am
3 concerned about students who go into a
4 scholarship program, they and their families
5 assume that they will be without a debt on
6 that portion. Obviously if they go to a
7 school out of town, they're going to have a
8 room and board cost. But they assume that
9 their tuition is covered. And then they fall
10 out of the program for any number of reasons,
11 and it turns into a loan. Which, you know,
12 sort of after the fact is a shock. It's
13 like, you know, buying a car that was a gift
14 from a relative who then says, You know what,
15 you changed the oil, now you've got to pay
16 for the car.
17 That's sort of like a little bit of a
18 problem. It may be only for a very small
19 percentage, but it is of concern to those
20 individuals. And we've had that happen with
21 students in the STEM scholarship who are
22 unable to find work.
23 So what are the forbearances that are
24 allowed -- and what are the hardships -- in
319
1 Excelsior, in TAP, and in the STEM program?
2 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: I'd say, first,
3 if there's a student who you know of who has
4 had their award converted to a loan because
5 they weren't able to find a job, they should
6 contact us, because we do have -- there are
7 qualifications under which they would not
8 have to repay the loan.
9 So we do have provisions in the law
10 for students who really cannot find a job in
11 New York State, and other hardships that --
12 where it would not convert to a loan.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Are --
14 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: And what I --
15 what I would add to that is that one thing
16 that we -- in communicating with both SUNY
17 and CUNY, for Excelsior students, be mindful
18 of the 30 credits that they have to carry.
19 There's been sensitivity to really lend, in
20 the college where they attend, extra guidance
21 and support and to be able to guide them to
22 the possible way so that they don't lose the
23 scholarship.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Well, you know,
320
1 stuff happens in life. And so a parent could
2 die, which disrupts -- you know, in some ways
3 college is the least of their problems,
4 except they've gone for two years and then
5 their parent dies, and then there's this
6 upheaval. They may be sick themselves. A
7 friend of mine has -- not going to a school
8 in this state, but the kid had to withdraw
9 because of a health problem.
10 So these things happen in real life.
11 And I'm wondering how flexible we have -- you
12 know, and whether there's on your website, if
13 somebody has been looking and saying, hey,
14 this looks like the right thing for me, and
15 then it turns out it didn't work out, is
16 there anything there that lets them know you
17 don't have to know Assemblymember So-and-so
18 or Senator So-and-so, that you can actually
19 reach out to HESC for an amelioration of
20 this -- what is a crisis?
21 If somebody -- and I -- we did a bill
22 specifically because of some problems people
23 had upstate on the STEM scholarship. It was
24 very upsetting, and the reaction from
321
1 Executive -- members of the Executive who I
2 spoke with about the veto around the STEM
3 scholarship, doing something to change some
4 of the postgraduate requirements, was, you
5 know, not overly encouraging.
6 So how do people know that if they've
7 had a crisis they can reach out to you? Is
8 there something specific like "in the event
9 of a problem, call us"?
10 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: Well, what we do
11 each year for anyone who's receiving a
12 scholarship that has a post-graduate service
13 requirement, we reach out to the students
14 every year to see if they're still in the
15 right program, et cetera. But if they're not
16 when they respond back to us, that's the time
17 that we really try to identify the reason for
18 that and if they're really eligible for one
19 of these hardship exemptions or not.
20 So we do have annual contact with
21 these students to make sure they did attend
22 for the year in the program, met those
23 requirements, and if they're going to
24 continue further or if there's a reason why
322
1 they were not able to remain in the program.
2 If it is medical hardship for a
3 student or death of a parent, disability of a
4 parent, disability of the student, those are
5 all already exemptions that we take into
6 account.
7 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: And we look
8 at it on a case-by-case basis. Obviously we
9 maintain very close relationship and
10 communication with colleges where the
11 students attend. And, you know, extenuating
12 circumstances may be health-related, they may
13 be something unexpected but grave that may
14 have impacted the student and their family.
15 So it's on a case by-case basis.
16 But there are triggers. Because if
17 you are receiving an Excelsior scholarship,
18 obviously you don't want to lose it. If
19 something comes underway, then you want to
20 negotiate with your college and also with us.
21 And we are very sensitive to when those
22 circumstances come. But again, it's a
23 case-by-case situation.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: But there are --
323
1 perhaps you can get us some information if in
2 fact there have been scholarships that have
3 turned into loans. I'm not sure how much of
4 an issue it is.
5 But they contacted their
6 Assemblymember, who then contacted me. So
7 clearly somehow they didn't know that there
8 was help through you all. So that's -- you
9 know, we want to just make certain that when
10 students think that we've made a pact with
11 them and they've, you know, signed on and
12 then they have a problem, they -- I just want
13 to be sure they know. And, you know, we'll
14 check the website. Maybe there's something
15 there that should be added into this -- not
16 where you have to hunt for it, like now
17 you're in deep trouble, now you can call us.
18 But something a little bit more closer up to
19 where they're signing up for this but should
20 there be a crisis, you can contact us. I
21 mean, that I think would be helpful.
22 Thanks very much.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
24 Senator Toby Stavisky.
324
1 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
2 Good to see you again, Dr. Linares,
3 Ms. Magee.
4 Eleven days ago I sent a letter to
5 HESC, dated -- and it was emailed and I think
6 regular mail. And it said, and I'll just
7 read the first paragraph: "In anticipation
8 of the February 4, 2020 budget hearing, I
9 want to provide you with the opportunity to
10 gather information because I will be asking
11 questions relevant to HESC. I would like to
12 avoid 'I'll get back to you' responses. If
13 it's easier, substitute the calendar year
14 instead of the academic or fiscal year."
15 I never got any of those answers. So
16 I don't want to read you the questions that I
17 gave you ahead of time. I'm looking at your
18 testimony, and I don't see -- you know, I see
19 sort of a sketchy response.
20 We want to know about the DREAM Act,
21 Enhanced TAP, Excelsior, and how it's
22 working -- the number of students that are
23 applying, the number that are rejected --
24 broken down by program -- the number that are
325
1 rejected and the reason that they're
2 rejected. And all of these questions I think
3 should be answered in anticipation of budget
4 negotiations.
5 I have no further questions.
6 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Madam Chair,
7 I am in receipt of your letter, or of the
8 questions that you posed. We want to be able
9 to provide to you all the specific numbers
10 that go with each one of the questions that
11 you posed. I am prepared to give you a
12 general sense of some of the questions that
13 you posed now. And immediately follow up
14 with you, responding with specific numbers
15 that we are looking into.
16 As you understand, the DREAM Act is
17 just being rolled out now, so the numbers are
18 fluid, but we are preparing to respond with
19 your request.
20 With regards to Excelsior, we do have
21 the numbers for the first and second year in
22 general terms. We do have a clear sense now
23 of where the third year will take us, which
24 we fully anticipate we are now at 28 -- over
326
1 28,000 students will benefit from Excelsior.
2 By the time this fiscal year -- the school
3 year ends, we fully anticipate about 30,000
4 students will be receiving the Excelsior
5 Scholarship.
6 I can tell you that the projected
7 funding for Excelsior is around 120 million
8 to cover the program. That is the projection
9 that we have.
10 I can share with you that the specific
11 question that you asked regarding the DREAM
12 Act -- first let me preamble, before I give
13 you the number, to share that we had a very
14 successful rollout for the DREAM Act. We
15 were aggressive in approaching the vast
16 network of organizations that provide
17 services to immigrant communities and engage
18 them, understanding how important it was to
19 address the fear factor that so many Dreamers
20 and immigrant communities, with aggressive
21 federal intervention, have.
22 And we engaged those institutional --
23 along with our partners, CUNY, SUNY, and
24 other universities, in helping prepare a
327
1 simplified application for the Dreamers.
2 Bear in mind that many of them are not
3 experienced filling out financial aid
4 applications, so we wanted to simplify it.
5 The other thing we did was to change
6 the platform to address the issue of fear but
7 also safety, and also confidentiality with
8 them. We did away with Social Security
9 numbers, which is the system we have to
10 provide financial aid across the state, and
11 we now use ID numbers for students. That was
12 quite an undertaking. And in an eight-week
13 time frame we launched the application, also
14 crafted guidance, step by step, for the
15 students to be able to successfully apply.
16 And over 5,000 Dreamers applied for the
17 scholarship.
18 Of those that we have reviewed thus
19 far, 75 percent are eligible to receive
20 financial assistance, primarily through TAP,
21 but also a number of them were able to apply
22 for Excelsior and ETA. The vast majority,
23 though, TAP.
24 But we are now in the middle of
328
1 reviewing all of those applications. Given
2 how short a time frame we had, I have to say
3 the rollout has been successful, and we have
4 worked very closely, again, with many
5 partners to make sure that any issue -- we
6 have no issue whatsoever in terms of the
7 rollout or the program. And whenever we had
8 any issue or concern, they were addressed as
9 we needed.
10 SENATOR STAVISKY: That's why I sent
11 the letter.
12 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Yeah.
13 Regarding the other question that you posed,
14 which I'd like to respond to now, in terms of
15 the time frame for applying for Excelsior,
16 once we do the residency and the income
17 questions, we are able to have a 48-hour
18 turnaround for the majority of those that
19 apply, particularly if they're freshmen.
20 If they have been attending school
21 previously, we then have to rely on the
22 college that they attended to provide that
23 information.
24 And for the DREAM Act, once a Dreamer
329
1 submits an application and fulfills all the
2 requirements, we have a response, a
3 turnaround of 10 days to be able to get back
4 to them.
5 SENATOR STAVISKY: You will provide
6 the information.
7 Let me ask a question. I understand
8 that the appropriation on the DREAM Act, as
9 an example, is about 27 million, something
10 like that. What happens if the money is not
11 expended in that particular budget year?
12 What happens to the unused money that has
13 been appropriated?
14 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Well, the
15 application for the DREAM Act is year-round.
16 So we've seen over 5,000 have applied, but
17 this is an ongoing process.
18 SENATOR STAVISKY: That's not my
19 question. My question is what happens if you
20 do not allocate all of the $27 million?
21 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: Those are General
22 Fund dollars.
23 SENATOR STAVISKY: What happens to the
24 money? Does it go back to the General Fund,
330
1 does it go into your -- is it reappropriated?
2 What happens to it?
3 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: The funds will
4 stay in the General Fund if they're not
5 utilized --
6 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Right, in the
7 General Fund.
8 (Overtalk.)
9 SENATOR STAVISKY: They'll stay in
10 HESC --
11 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: Yeah, they're
12 there and that's where they would remain.
13 SENATOR STAVISKY: Okay.
14 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: But if there are
15 awards that are owed in the future for this
16 current year, there are reappropriations. So
17 the funds -- the student would still get the
18 payment, correct.
19 SENATOR STAVISKY: It doesn't go back
20 to the General Fund.
21 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: It -- it's in the
22 General Fund. It's never come to us, it's
23 paid out of the General Fund in all
24 instances. So it would sit there.
331
1 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Through the
2 colleges where the Dreamers attend.
3 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
5 Assembly.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Mr. Epstein.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you for
8 being here and taking the time to talk to us
9 about these really important issues.
10 Just, I know, with Senator Stavisky's
11 issues, how many people applied for the DREAM
12 Act?
13 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: How many
14 people applied?
15 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Yeah.
16 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: This year
17 for --
18 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: This year.
19 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: -- Excelsior
20 or DREAM?
21 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: DREAM.
22 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: DREAM. Over
23 5,000 initiated the application.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Right. And how
332
1 many people applied for --
2 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Seventy-five
3 percent of those completed.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: When you say
5 "completed," they were awarded? When you say
6 "completed," what do you mean?
7 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: There are
8 5,000 completed applications.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And those 5,000
10 were awarded TAP?
11 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Mostly TAP
12 has been awarded for those that have been
13 processed. And we're currently in the
14 process of --
15 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Of those 5,000,
16 how many were rejected?
17 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: So 5,000 have
18 completed applications. Some are pending
19 review. Of the ones that have been reviewed,
20 75 percent -- it's really 73 percent -- of
21 the reviewed applications have been deemed
22 eligible.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And how many
24 have been reviewed?
333
1 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: We've had --
2 about 4,000 of the 5,000 have been reviewed.
3 So we have about 2100, 2200 students who have
4 already been deemed eligible for --
5 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: So out of 5,000,
6 2100 or 2200 have been deemed eligible.
7 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: Yeah. And some
8 of those -- we have about a thousand that
9 really have not been reviewed yet. So they
10 could also be eligible. And students are
11 continuing to apply as well.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you.
13 How many people have applied for
14 Excelsior?
15 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: About 52 --
16 this year?
17 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: This year.
18 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: About 52 --
19 over 52,000 have applied. We have identified
20 eligible about 28 -- over 28,000.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you.
22 Have you thought about -- we've heard
23 a lot around TAP being at an insufficient
24 level at this point, with tuition over
334
1 $7,000. Would you advocate increasing the
2 TAP award for students?
3 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Well, as you
4 know, TAP is the bulk of the funding that we
5 provide across the state, nearly a billion
6 dollars. And of course I understand that
7 there are discussions taking place about how
8 best to use or change the TAP --
9 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Do you believe
10 TAP should go up for students?
11 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: The need, for
12 students, is always there. We -- we have
13 specific populations that could benefit from
14 that. But the answer is yes, but it's a
15 question that the Legislature and the
16 Governor need to address.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you.
18 And I'm wondering, the TAP dollars,
19 what percentage of it goes to for-profit
20 schools, nonprofit schools, versus public
21 schools?
22 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Well, we can
23 provide you with a breakdown of --
24 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: That would be
335
1 great.
2 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: -- of all of
3 that breakdown. You know, across a billion
4 dollars is significant in all three sectors,
5 the for-profit, nonprofit and also --
6 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And do you
7 maintain default rates for all three sectors
8 separately?
9 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: I'm sorry?
10 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Do you maintain
11 default rates for all three sectors
12 separately?
13 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: Not by sector.
14 We have, by colleges, default -- cohort
15 default rates by college.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: I'm sorry, I
17 couldn't hear that.
18 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: We have cohort
19 default rates by college but not by sector.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Not by sector,
21 but you do by college. And how far out do
22 you do? Do you do three years or do you do
23 five and 10 years?
24 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: It's a three-year
336
1 look.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Do you keep
3 information five and 10 years out as well?
4 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: No, the
5 national -- we use the national formula, and
6 it's always a --
7 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: But if they're
8 not paying back, you don't -- you don't have
9 any data that says what happens after three
10 years? There's nothing that you maintain?
11 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: We don't.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And is there a
13 reason you don't, just to see post-three
14 years how people are doing with their loan
15 repayment?
16 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: We don't -- we
17 don't touch all of the students who have
18 student loans. We only have information on
19 students who either got loans with us, now
20 going back more than 10 years ago, or --
21 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: So why don't you
22 just maintain that record five, 10 years out
23 so we know past the three years how people
24 are doing just with your loans? It would be
337
1 great to have that information as well.
2 Yeah, I'd appreciate, if you have that
3 information, it would be great for you to
4 gather it.
5 And I know my time is up, so thank you
6 both.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay, thank you.
8 Senator Jim Seward.
9 SENATOR SEWARD: Thank you, Madam
10 Chair.
11 And Dr. Linares, Ms. Magee, thank you
12 for being here.
13 In terms of the rollout of the DREAM
14 Act program, am I correct in saying that the
15 undocumented students do not have to fill out
16 the FAFSA forms?
17 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: That's correct.
18 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: That's
19 correct.
20 SENATOR SEWARD: Now, my question is,
21 how is income eligibility being verified for
22 students who receive a -- you know, pursuant
23 to the DREAM Act? Is there an income
24 eligibility check?
338
1 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Yeah. They
2 self-report and fill out an affidavit
3 specifying, if they have income, what that
4 income is. And that's a provision that we
5 provide within the application process. And
6 so it's a self-reporting because there's no
7 way of knowing whether they generate income
8 or not. But we use that to determine
9 eligibility.
10 SENATOR SEWARD: So that's part of the
11 application process, is what you're saying?
12 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Yes. Yes.
13 SENATOR SEWARD: Can you share with us
14 how many individuals have applied for
15 financial aid because they qualify under the
16 DREAM Act? How many students have applied
17 for financial aid because they qualify?
18 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: The vast
19 majority -- we anticipate, because we don't
20 have the final numbers, because we are in the
21 process of reviewing all of the applications.
22 But we -- of those who complete all
23 the requirements that they have, and after we
24 have done the review of those, we find about
339
1 75 percent of those that we complete the
2 review are found eligible for financial aid.
3 SENATOR SEWARD: Thank you. No
4 further questions.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
6 Assembly.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Assemblymember
8 Pichardo.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO: Good afternoon,
10 EVP Magee and Dr. Linares {in Spanish}.
11 So I just want to make sure, just out
12 of curiosity, is there a sense or a way where
13 we can -- this committee in our respective
14 houses can receive the exact number of
15 applications, the failure rate in terms of
16 applications for both Excelsior and for the
17 Jose Peralta DREAM Act, by any chance?
18 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Sure.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO: Okay. We'd
20 love to see those numbers. Because again, I
21 know that -- first of all, sir, appreciate
22 your service, and you and I both served with
23 Jose. And, you know, if he wasn't around, if
24 he wasn't here with us, he would be here
340
1 asking these same questions of us. So, you
2 know, it's important that we make sure that
3 this program is successful and that, if there
4 is a slack of funding or a lack of funding,
5 that we are able to make up the shortfall.
6 So in terms of just asking, what else
7 do we need to make sure that every single
8 eligible student that is eligible for not
9 only Excelsior but for DREAM Act, that they
10 get the word out? How else can we be helpful
11 in that endeavor?
12 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: That's a very
13 good question. Because, you know, as the
14 original sponsor when I was in your chair of
15 the DREAM Act in 2011, this program is close
16 to my heart.
17 So my biggest fear, as we had it
18 finally approved, thanks to you, is that the
19 aggressiveness with which Washington is
20 approaching particularly our state brings to
21 higher levels the level of fear in many
22 immigrant families and Dreamers. So that's
23 why we were so aggressive in engaging trusted
24 institutions across the state, knowing that a
341
1 large portion of undocumented families and
2 students find themselves in the five boroughs
3 and also Long Island, Westchester, but
4 they're also present in other parts of the
5 state. And engaging in a proactive way with
6 those diverse institutions working with
7 immigrant families was key and instrumental
8 in approaching the number that we have
9 received so far.
10 We have to continue to spread the
11 word. And this is now a renewed effort that
12 we're undertaking using all media that is
13 accessible, TV, but by and large the ethnic
14 media and also the community-based
15 organizations across the state. Because the
16 only way to address the fear factor is really
17 to have the word of mouth but also trusted
18 individuals and institutions.
19 And so having Dreamers know that when
20 they provide information to us, it comes to
21 us and it is highly confidential by law,
22 federal and state, and that that information
23 goes nowhere. The only connections we've
24 made as an agency is to the institution where
342
1 they're attending to get a degree, for the
2 purposes of providing the financial aid. And
3 that alone goes a long way in them not being
4 hesitant and concerned about applying when
5 they're undocumented under these
6 circumstances.
7 So we are engaged in a campaign and
8 using all those that can help us make sure
9 that every Dreamer that's eligible to attend
10 one of our universities has that opportunity
11 without fear.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO: Well, thank
13 you. And again, I want to reiterate my point
14 to you, Dr. Linares, that we would love to --
15 if we can share those numbers with the
16 committee. Just obviously the raw totals,
17 not confidential information, just to see how
18 we can continue to support Dream specifically
19 and making sure that it's a successful
20 program.
21 And thank you for your time and your
22 service.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
24 To the Senate, Robert Jackson.
343
1 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you, Madam
2 Chair.
3 Dr. Guillermo Linares, let me thank
4 you for your leadership. Obviously we -- you
5 and I go back a long way. Community school
6 boards, fighting for the children in District
7 6. I remember loud and clear when parent
8 voters -- parents were allowed to vote even
9 if they were noncitizens. And we, along with
10 other community leaders, registered 10,000
11 parent voters to vote in school board
12 elections. And so --
13 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: In three
14 months.
15 SENATOR JACKSON: Three months. So
16 you've been a fighter, and I think you're in
17 a great position to help students to access
18 higher education.
19 I think you may have been here earlier
20 when I asked about looking at the budget as
21 far as the decrease in the Higher Education
22 Corporation's funding. Have you -- your
23 budget has been decreased, am I
24 understanding, yes or no?
344
1 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: I'm not aware
2 that that's the case. In fact, what my
3 understanding is that is -- there is an
4 increase in terms of the funding for the
5 programs that we administer. And in terms of
6 our operation as an agency, we're whole.
7 SENATOR JACKSON: You're whole?
8 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Yes.
9 SENATOR JACKSON: Okay. Because I
10 think it's so important that students have
11 the opportunity to go into higher education.
12 Obviously they indicate this is the
13 Empire State. Someone said to me, we need
14 this to be the progressive state,
15 that Governor Cuomo says he's progressive, so
16 let's call this a progressive state and make
17 sure that our children receive a progressive
18 education and not the opportunity for a
19 sound, basic education which is not being
20 funded -- which has been challenged in the
21 courts and we won. So obviously that's
22 important for me, and you know that.
23 But with respect to your subject
24 area -- and I'm sorry I walked in late, I was
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1 in conference dealing with the presentation
2 on education. Can you tell me what effect,
3 if any -- to the best of your knowledge, what
4 effect does it have on children, students
5 going into higher education if in fact they
6 do not receive a good education? What effect
7 does that have on them entering college and
8 life beyond?
9 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Well, the
10 Governor usually says that a college degree
11 today is what 50 years ago a high school
12 diploma was. And never in the history of our
13 country has there been such an urgent need in
14 getting a two- or a four-year degree and
15 beyond for the workforce demands that we
16 have. And earlier we had both CUNY and SUNY
17 chancellors speaking to that.
18 Sixty-five percent of the jobs that
19 are most promising in terms of income when
20 you hit the workforce require -- 65 percent
21 require a college degree. And so we cannot
22 afford, when we have a student enter the
23 doors, to not to get to the finish line. So
24 that's why one of the things that we're doing
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1 now in a very aggressive way is to engage
2 K-12 -- but I say to K to 3rd purposely
3 because it is not engaging only the guidance
4 counselors in the high school level, but if
5 by fifth or sixth grade there has not been
6 engagement with our young people about
7 planning and expecting to attend college,
8 it's too late. So we need to really engage
9 K-12, but also engage other partners at the
10 higher education level.
11 SENATOR JACKSON: Sure. So with
12 respect to your agency, what is the primary
13 role of your agency as far as to help
14 students get into college?
15 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: I am -- I am
16 working -- when I arrived to my agency three
17 years ago, I found that it did a very good
18 job processing scholarships and grants and so
19 forth. I have now engaged in trying to make
20 the agency a service-oriented agency for
21 students and families, and by extension
22 communities, leveraging as much communication
23 as possible, a strategy in communication
24 leveraging the new technology that we have.
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1 We're having soon a director of
2 communication coming on board, because the
3 27 programs that we have to provide financial
4 aid and provide assistance to students -- the
5 information of those programs needs to be in
6 the hands of students and families. And they
7 need to be aware of what exists for them,
8 what's available to them, in order for us to
9 be fully successful.
10 So it's shifting the agency to be
11 service-oriented to students and families,
12 working closely with very trusted and strong
13 partners that we have -- CUNY, SUNY, the
14 private colleges --
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Guillermo, I'm
16 going to cut you off so that the Assembly can
17 ask you more questions.
18 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you, Madam
19 Chair. Thank you, Dr. Linares.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Thank
21 you.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Assemblymember
23 Ra.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Good afternoon,
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1 Dr. Linares. Good to see you.
2 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Good to see
3 you.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: I just have a quick
5 question, and if you don't have this
6 information, perhaps you can get it to us.
7 But last year there was a new kind of small
8 scholarship that was put into the budget, the
9 Child Welfare Worker Incentive Scholarship
10 and the Child Welfare Worker Loan Forgiveness
11 Program, which was designed as, you know, an
12 incentive to an industry that's having a lot
13 of trouble with recruitment and retention of
14 staff.
15 And if you'd be able to get us some
16 information just in terms of -- you know,
17 they're looking to expand that; I think
18 there's a need there. But just in terms of
19 how many people have participated in these
20 programs, how many have applied for these
21 programs, just to get a real sense of what
22 the demand is for those programs.
23 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Be glad to
24 send you that information.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay, thank you.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
3 Continuing with the Assembly.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Assemblymember
5 Simon.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
7 Good afternoon. I have a couple of
8 questions that really go to TAP and our use
9 of TAP. Obviously there's the TAP gap that
10 we've been talking about, but I'm also
11 concerned about part-time TAP and --
12 part-time TAP and how our policies require
13 students to be a full-time student for a year
14 before they can access part-time TAP, instead
15 of the other way around.
16 Because we know so many students start
17 school -- and often in community colleges it
18 is the entryway for 75 percent of students
19 with disabilities, is to begin their college
20 careers, postsecondary careers in a community
21 college, and they are pretty much foreclosed
22 from taking advantage of TAP if they are
23 starting out part-time.
24 Can you give me some sense of the
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1 decision-making behind that and what you're
2 doing to look at that issue?
3 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Well, I'm
4 going to ask Elsa to respond to this specific
5 question, but we also have the part-time
6 scholarship that we just initiated, right,
7 which complements those students who need
8 financial aid to -- because they attend
9 part-time.
10 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: But specific to
11 students with disabilities, they do not need
12 to meet the full-time requirement to receive
13 TAP. So for any student who has a disability
14 under the Americans with Disabilities Act,
15 they -- it doesn't matter whether they start
16 off part-time or they can enroll for 12
17 credits, they are always eligible for TAP.
18 And we'll just prorate so that they continue
19 to receive the award while they're in
20 attendance at school.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: And I know there
22 had been an issue where they would be
23 foreclosed after four years if they needed
24 additional years, and that has been fixed.
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1 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: That would be
2 prorated so they'd get it for as many years
3 as they --
4 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: That's the
5 way it works for Excelsior also.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: But outside of
7 students with disabilities, there are still
8 plenty of students who start off in community
9 colleges who can't access TAP unless they go
10 full-time for a year.
11 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: But as
12 Dr. Linares said, for students we do have the
13 part-time scholarship program for students
14 attending a SUNY or CUNY college, where they
15 can continue to take anywheres from three to
16 11 credits, and they can receive $3,000 under
17 that program.
18 And then there's also the Aid for
19 Part-Time Studies Program, where there's
20 $14 million available, and that's
21 administered by the college directly as well,
22 for part-time students.
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: And how do
24 students find out about this? How do
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1 students find out about this?
2 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: The colleges --
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: The availability
4 of these programs, how are they communicated
5 to students? Because -- and obviously if
6 they're beginning -- you know, how is that
7 information getting down to the high schools,
8 for example, to help parents to know that
9 this is a resource available to their
10 children?
11 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: I think,
12 interestingly, we don't typically market
13 part-time programs to high school guidance
14 counselors. But we can begin doing that,
15 certainly.
16 The schools -- we work directly with
17 financial aid officers, and they tend to
18 be -- because the students are there in their
19 offices. They know about our programs, and
20 they're usually the ones -- they administer
21 the Aid for Part-Time Study Program right on
22 their campuses. So they're usually the ones,
23 when they see that a student is part-time and
24 meets the eligibility requirements, they make
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1 the students aware of those requirements.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: And how many
3 students have accessed that part-time
4 scholarship program?
5 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: Part-time
6 scholarship? I'd have to get you the actual
7 numbers.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you. I'd
9 be interested in learning more about that.
10 Thank you.
11 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: Sure.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
13 Assembly continues.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblymember
15 Fahy to close.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you.
17 Thank you, Dr. Linares, it's good to
18 see you here, former colleague. And thank
19 you for all your service here and at HESC.
20 I want to share -- just briefly share
21 the concerns about the expansion of TAP and
22 the serious and growing need for TAP. So I
23 just -- I'm not going to reiterate some of
24 the comments, but even the part-time TAP I
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1 know is something very much in demand. So
2 thank you for all you can do to try to
3 address that, as well as the demand across
4 the board for the financial aid.
5 I have a smaller question, and happy
6 to follow up with you on it. The master's
7 and teachers program, it's a bill that I've
8 had the last few years to try to expand that.
9 And if I understand correctly, it's -- the
10 number of scholarships awarded for that
11 master's and teachers program has kind of
12 held steady, I think it's allocated at $5
13 million. It hasn't broken a million dollars.
14 And yet, as you know, we have a very serious
15 teacher shortage, and I think it could be
16 quite instrumental in helping teachers.
17 We've also added that not just public
18 universities could access that, but private
19 nonprofits could as well. Do you happen to
20 know where -- it seems to be consistently
21 around that 60 range. Do you know where --
22 is it just that certain universities are
23 marketing it better, or is there something
24 that we can do to increase those numbers,
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1 given that we haven't even broken the million
2 dollars, yet we know there's a need for those
3 master's degrees?
4 HESC EXEC VP MAGEE: We have not
5 really focused so far. But as Dr. Linares
6 said, we are getting a new communications
7 director in, and this is one of the programs
8 where we really want to work with SUNY and
9 CUNY at their colleges that are educating our
10 teachers, to make sure that the students do
11 know about it, because we do know that we can
12 award 500 each year, and we're not at that
13 mark yet.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Yes, that's
15 right, up to 500, and I think it's allocated
16 at 5 million, yet we're in and around the 60
17 range.
18 Again, I have the bill to try to
19 expand that to make sure that we are using
20 those monies, given the critical shortages.
21 I welcome the opportunity to follow up with
22 you to see which schools are using it, and
23 maybe it's somewhat of a marketing issue, as
24 well as I would contend an expansion of that
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1 program.
2 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Yeah. Part
3 of what we want to do is really raise
4 awareness of all of the programs that we
5 have, whether it is Get Off Your Feet or this
6 particular program, just to raise awareness
7 about them that they are there to take
8 advantage of, and this is a big priority.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you. Thank
10 you. Thank you, Chair.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Thank
12 you very much for your testimony here today.
13 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You are now free.
15 (Laughter.)
16 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Thank you.
17 (Discussion off the record.)
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Next up,
19 Andrew Pallotta, NYSUT president, along with
20 Frederick Kowal, president of United
21 University Professions, and Barbara Bowen,
22 president of Professional Staff Congress.
23 And there might be a fourth -- Alithia Rolon,
24 NYSUT legislative director.
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1 Good afternoon.
2 MR. PALLOTTA: Good afternoon,
3 Chairperson Krueger, Chairperson Stavisky,
4 Chairperson Glick.
5 I first commend you for your stamina.
6 This is amazing, and we've heard some great
7 testimony today.
8 I am Andy Pallotta, president of
9 New York State United Teachers. We represent
10 600,000-plus members around the state
11 involved in education and healthcare. Thank
12 you for the opportunity to testify before you
13 today. I am joined by Fred Kowal, UUP
14 president, and also Barbara Bowen, president
15 of the PSC. They will testify today, and I
16 will make sure that I do not repeat too many
17 things that we've heard for the last day.
18 So public higher education, as we all
19 know, provides a pathway out of poverty and
20 into the middle class for so many families
21 throughout New York State. We've heard how
22 many folks have gone through the system, and
23 I would start off by saying I went to
24 Kingsborough Community College and then
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1 Brooklyn College for my master's in
2 education.
3 When the state doesn't invest in
4 public education, it's harmful to all of our
5 students and our communities. Worse still,
6 these effects most strongly impact low-income
7 communities, and thus this impact is borne by
8 those who can least afford to shoulder it.
9 This year the Executive Budget once again
10 holds SUNY and CUNY's instructional core
11 budgets flat from last year. The negative
12 impact of all this is too familiar to us and
13 is felt by our students and the educators in
14 the field.
15 When we refer to investment, we are
16 asking the state to cover all mandatory
17 costs, which include collective bargaining
18 increases, energy and other inflationary
19 costs, as well as tuition credit waivers.
20 Without state funding to cover these rising
21 costs, SUNY and CUNY are forced to absorb
22 them, which often necessitates reductions in
23 academic programs and student supports. We
24 would like to thank you for continuing to
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1 support the legislation that requires the
2 state to reimburse all mandatory costs.
3 At this time I'll just discuss quickly
4 about community colleges, and I thank you for
5 your support for these campuses around the
6 state. As you well know, community colleges
7 educate and prepare students for the
8 workforce and provide the necessary
9 foundation for students moving on to
10 four-year campuses and universities or into
11 the workforce. They often collaborate with
12 regional businesses and employers to develop
13 and provide training to access specific local
14 workforce needs.
15 The Executive Budget proposes flat
16 funding per FTE for community colleges, which
17 will likely force many campuses to raise
18 tuition and/or eliminate programs and student
19 services.
20 We believe now is the time to provide
21 baseline funding to financially stabilize our
22 campuses. Accordingly, we are asking for a
23 base aid increase of $250 per FTE and for
24 SUNY community colleges. In addition to the
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1 $250 FTE, we are also continuing to advocate
2 for the hybrid FTE funding methodology for
3 SUNY community colleges that would provide
4 funding based on a model that will insulate
5 them from enrollment fluctuations. This
6 methodology will provide our SUNY community
7 colleges with some level of security and
8 allow them to strategically plan for the
9 future, as well as provide them with
10 additional support.
11 And before I wrap up, I wanted to talk
12 to you about the need to eliminate the TAP
13 gap. We've heard a lot about this today, and
14 I'm glad that everyone -- everyone -- seems
15 to be talking about the TAP gap today, so
16 this is excellent. And this has resulted in
17 serious educational inequality issues within
18 SUNY and CUNY. The nature of the tuition
19 credit is such that schools that serve poorer
20 communities where students are more likely to
21 receive the maximum TAP award are forced to
22 bear the heaviest hits to their operating
23 budgets.
24 We appreciate the state's desire to
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1 increase student access to public higher
2 education, and we must focus on providing the
3 funding to preserve and enhance the quality
4 of the education offered by CUNY and SUNY.
5 We understand that the table target typically
6 allotted to higher education is limited and
7 does not allow for new investments after
8 funding is restored to programs such as
9 student Opportunity Programs.
10 Also, NYSUT is aggressively pursuing a
11 campaign to secure stable revenue streams to
12 fund the futures of our students. It is time
13 to close the ever-widening gap between the
14 haves and the have-nots. It is time to hold
15 billionaires and ultra-millionaires
16 accountable and demand that they pay their
17 fair share in taxes. Funding generated from
18 these revenue streams could be used to make
19 much-needed improvements and investments in
20 education and help reverse the years of flat
21 funding and ensure that we are providing the
22 students with a first-rate education.
23 We have much polling to support the
24 public support for taxation, and I will now
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1 turn it over to Dr. Fred Kowal.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Very well-timed.
3 MR. PALLOTTA: That was -- I practiced
4 all day.
5 (Laughter.)
6 DR. KOWAL: Thank you, Chairperson
7 Krueger, Chairperson Weinstein, Chairperson
8 Stavisky, Chairperson Glick, members of the
9 Senate Finance Committee, Assembly Ways and
10 Means Committee, and the Higher Education
11 Committees. I would like to thank you for
12 the opportunity for United University
13 Professions to testify on the 2021 Executive
14 Budget for higher education.
15 My name is Dr. Fred Kowal, and I'm the
16 president of UUP. And I do have the distinct
17 honor and privilege of representing more than
18 37,000 academic and professional faculty and
19 staff doing their work across New York State
20 at SUNY.
21 With regard to the Executive Budget
22 proposal, quite simply, the Governor's
23 proposed budget fails to provide the
24 necessary funding for SUNY. The spending
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1 plan is essentially flat, which will only
2 make things worse for our cash-tight
3 campuses. A 3 percent increase for public
4 higher education is earmarked for the cost of
5 state fringe benefits, an increase in capital
6 bonded costs, and a planned expansion of the
7 Excelsior Scholarship Program.
8 We heard a great deal this morning
9 from the chancellor, Chancellor Johnson,
10 concerning the need for philanthropic --
11 philanthropy, sorry. I should have known how
12 to pronounce it, I heard it so often.
13 As a state we must never, never become
14 dependent on private sources of money to
15 accomplish the important public mission of
16 our state universities. This has never been
17 more evident than in a newly proposed
18 two-to-one capital construction matching
19 program, a SUNY budget request proposal that
20 was then incorporated in the Governor's
21 proposal.
22 This proposal will divide SUNY
23 campuses into groups of haves and have-nots:
24 Campuses that can afford to access the
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1 matching funds, and campuses that can't.
2 This will create a vicious cycle. Campuses
3 with private dollars will utilize the match
4 and build impressive new buildings, hopefully
5 attracting new students. Those that can't
6 raise the funds will continue to deteriorate
7 and see their enrollments decline. A system
8 will result that will become more and more
9 tuition-dependent, and these campuses will
10 fall further and further behind.
11 We are not a quasi-public higher
12 education system. We are the State
13 University of New York, a public higher
14 education system. The time has come to
15 remind and continue to remind the Chancellor
16 and the Governor that these are their
17 campuses, their hospitals, but at the same
18 time, this is the people's SUNY. We are a
19 system, not a collection of franchisees.
20 We have heard a great deal
21 specifically in terms of funding about the
22 TAP gap. The TAP gap in fact is a major
23 burden for our campuses. Allow me to share
24 with you a couple of specific cases as to how
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1 the TAP gap has impacted, for instance, the
2 campus at Plattsburgh, which is suffering
3 right now under a $3 million deficit. The
4 TAP gap there in the last year was slightly
5 over $2 million. If it is addressed, that
6 would diminish deeply the gap that that
7 campus faces.
8 My home campus of Cobleskill has a
9 $2 million deficit. Its TAP gap is
10 approximately $1 million. Again, a long way
11 to solving the budget problems facing our
12 campuses could be achieved by addressing the
13 TAP gap.
14 I would be remiss if I did not share
15 with you the serious situation facing the
16 SUNY hospitals. Once again, the Governor has
17 chosen to propose a budget that includes no
18 money in what is referred to as the "SUNY
19 subsidy." We need to recall that when a
20 patient comes to a SUNY hospital or an
21 academic medical center, regardless of that
22 individual's ability to pay, the color of
23 that person's skin, the country of that
24 person's origin, the level of that person's
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1 education, all will receive the best care
2 possible anywhere.
3 However, when we look at what has
4 happened over the last couple of years in
5 terms of the subsidy, there have been direct
6 impacts on patient care in the hospitals.
7 Just this past week -- today, as a matter of
8 fact, I received word from our chapter
9 president at Upstate Medical University that
10 in one of the trauma care centers there was a
11 leak in the ceiling which was taken care of
12 by the use of a trash bag and a trash barrel
13 to catch the water.
14 There is such a demand for the trauma
15 and emergency room services at Upstate that
16 patients are being kept in physical therapy
17 gymnasiums and in the hallways. This is
18 totally unsafe, while at the same time
19 undermining, for instance, HIPAA requirements
20 that these institutions must follow.
21 The hospitals need the subsidy, we
22 need to support them, it is part of the
23 central core mission of SUNY. And that
24 mission calls on all of us to be committed to
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1 building a better future for our students and
2 our state.
3 Thank you very much.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: You're knocking
6 it out of the park on the timing.
7 MR. PALLOTTA: Professors.
8 (Laughter.)
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: It's a high
10 mark -- a high bar now, Barbara.
11 (Laughter.)
12 DR. BOWEN: I'll try. I'll try.
13 Good afternoon -- almost good
14 evening -- Senate Chairpersons Krueger and
15 Stavisky and Assembly Chairperson Glick. And
16 thank you all, those of you who are here,
17 those of you who have been here for most of
18 the time, for your time and your questions.
19 And also thank you for your support
20 for CUNY, for the nearly half-million
21 students we educate, and for the 30,000
22 faculty and staff whom I represent.
23 Legislators on both sides of the aisle have
24 fought to increase funding in the past for
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1 community colleges, you've protected
2 Opportunity Programs year after year, and
3 you've understood the need to stabilize the
4 public funding for CUNY and SUNY senior
5 colleges, and we thank you for that.
6 I'm proud to be here with my
7 colleagues and also two colleagues from the
8 PSC, Andrea Vasquez and Mike Fabricant. We
9 deeply appreciate, the PSC, your efforts to
10 increase funding for CUNY and your support
11 last year -- and the Governor's support --
12 for the PSC's landmark contract that we just
13 settled. And you've heard quite a bit about
14 it.
15 But I need to tell you that CUNY
16 cannot withstand another year of New York
17 State's current funding policy. New York's
18 policy on CUNY funding is planned poverty,
19 impoverishment by design. State budgets that
20 consistently fail to cover even mandatory
21 costs and collective bargaining increases
22 amount to a policy of sabotaging CUNY and
23 sabotaging CUNY students. There's no other
24 way to say that. Not everyone here today has
369
1 said that. But year after year of
2 underfunding adds up to a policy. And that
3 policy is deliberate underfunding for the
4 students we teach and the students we love.
5 So to make up for missing state
6 funding, CUNY either cuts resources or
7 increases tuition or both. Neither approach
8 is acceptable or sustainable. Incremental
9 cuts and flat budgets may look innocuous, but
10 repeated year after year, they amount to a
11 policy of destroying the university's
12 capacity to provide the education and support
13 CUNY students need. On a per-student
14 basis -- and I don't think you've heard this
15 yet in all the statistics -- on a per-student
16 basis, state funding for FTE students,
17 adjusted for inflation, for CUNY senior
18 colleges, has declined by 21 percent in the
19 last decade alone.
20 How is a university supposed to
21 continue to educate students when operating
22 funds have been cut by more than a fifth, if
23 one in five students cannot get into a class
24 needed for graduation, if college libraries
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1 have to close one day in five, if one in five
2 full-time faculty positions is cut, if every
3 advisor is responsible for hundreds more
4 students, if buildings are dilapidated, roofs
5 leak, rats and mold endanger the classroom,
6 and students have to navigate around buckets
7 catching rainwater as they try to make their
8 way to class?
9 That any state would allow or even
10 cause such shortfalls is regrettable, and I
11 would say shameful. But it's especially so
12 here in New York. This state prides itself
13 on leading the nation in progressive policy,
14 and in many areas it does. The Legislature,
15 you showed last year that you could do things
16 against the odds, you made breathtaking
17 changes in policy. But in fiscal support for
18 public higher education, that has yet to
19 happen. New York is far from a progressive
20 leader. It's actually failing CUNY students.
21 The consequences are heaviest for
22 those least able to bear them. And you've
23 heard about our students today, and we can
24 say more later. And we know that you stand
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1 with us, and you have stood with us. But
2 this year we're asking for a higher level of
3 commitment because nothing else will serve.
4 So we are calling on you to make sure
5 that full funding for CUNY's essential needs
6 is a priority -- one of the few priorities in
7 your conference -- and that the leaders of
8 each house take a stand in favor of the new
9 revenue necessary to achieve it. We ask you
10 to refuse to pass a budget -- I know this is
11 a heavy lift -- refuse to pass a budget
12 unless it includes new revenue from
13 progressive taxation and covers CUNY's basic
14 operating costs without raising tuition.
15 So the requests that we've made you've
16 seen in our written material; they
17 concentrate on funding the unmet mandatory
18 needs. The basic year-to-year costs of our
19 contract are not funded yet. The chancellor
20 mentioned that he hopes that they will be
21 funded in the final budget. We hope they
22 will. But basic contract increases.
23 Filling the TAP gap. That is a gap at
24 every college -- $8 million at Hunter,
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1 $7 million at John Jay. Each of those
2 places, the more students of economic need
3 the college accepts, the more they are
4 punished. That is a structural deficit; it
5 should be removed.
6 We call on you to restore the
7 legislative funding that you generously put
8 in last year to increase the community
9 college base aid. And let me just mention
10 again this must be done without raising
11 tuition. The tuition increase generates
12 $36 million. The state should put that
13 public money into a public university, should
14 not extend the authorization for endless
15 tuition increases.
16 And we certainly stand with UUP on the
17 issue of capital. It should not be based on
18 private funding match.
19 Thank you very much.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
21 First up, chair of Higher Ed for the
22 Assembly, Deborah Glick.
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you very
24 much.
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1 We -- you know, those of us who are
2 here and many who are in session now
3 understand that the issue of the TAP gap is a
4 very -- it's not going to get fixed in a
5 year. We would like to see a plan to
6 eliminate it in a shorter period of time.
7 But you've mentioned the collective
8 bargaining costs, which fall to each campus.
9 Do we have a figure for what needs to be
10 added to cover that cost?
11 DR. BOWEN: CUNY gives a cost in their
12 breakdown of mandatory costs that are unmet,
13 and I'd rather use their figure since they've
14 worked it up. And it can be divided by
15 campus. And they give a figure for this
16 year. But the increases across the board
17 were the same ones that the state has
18 insisted on, I'll say, for the other unions,
19 a 2 percent increase.
20 But we were able to do a much bigger
21 increase for adjuncts because of two things.
22 We redistributed some of that money, and also
23 we do have support from the Governor's
24 office -- which is very important -- and from
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1 the Mayor of New York City to pay adjuncts
2 for hundreds of thousands of additional
3 office hours, time with students. So that
4 cost we're expecting to be funded in. And
5 that's not visible on CUNY's sheet.
6 DR. KOWAL: And we're in the --
7 presently in the fourth year of our
8 collective bargaining agreement. And
9 similarly, we got the 2 percent increases.
10 We also have had new minimum salaries
11 established for adjuncts, and they go up
12 every fall semester.
13 However, calculating what that is,
14 again, I would take the same tack as my
15 colleague Dr. Bowen, and that is I would
16 depend on SUNY's number because we don't know
17 how many of the adjuncts will be in the
18 workforce and in our bargaining unit when
19 those increases go through. So the
20 calculation can be a little tricky.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: This is a more
22 abstract question. We've heard that, you
23 know, there are literally millions of
24 New Yorkers who have gotten their education,
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1 as I did, from CUNY or SUNY at a very
2 reasonable cost. They're out there. The
3 systems are in an awkward position to reach
4 out to alumni and say "Write to the Governor
5 and say there's not enough money," even
6 though I wish they would. But, you know,
7 they send me a very lovely little note that,
8 you know, it was nice of you to go to Queens
9 College, can you send us a check? And it's
10 like, I can, I will, but you're not going to
11 get very far on it, so.
12 But I do think that we have missed the
13 boat on reaching out and having a concerted
14 effort to reach out to alumni and ask them to
15 participate. Maybe through, you know, some
16 of your organizations you have some folks who
17 have come through the systems. But you're
18 located everywhere, and there should be some
19 thought given to how we can harness and do an
20 outreach program together -- I'm more than
21 willing to participate in that -- in order to
22 get people to speak up. I don't want to hear
23 from somebody who's a very lovely individual,
24 who's an ophthalmologist and I'm sure is
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1 making a very good living, coming to me
2 personally and saying, You have to save SUNY.
3 And I've said back, I'm glad you've gone on
4 for, you know, all of this additional
5 training and education, but maybe you're the
6 one who should be pointing out to the powers
7 that be above me that you, in fact, are
8 successful in paying your taxes at a higher
9 rate because of this education.
10 So I know I'm speaking to the choir,
11 but we haven't done it.
12 DR. BOWEN: I have an idea, if I may.
13 I would love to work together. As the union,
14 we have access, of course, to the addresses
15 and emails of our members, but we don't to
16 the alumni. The colleges have not shared
17 those addresses. If they'd be willing to
18 share them with you in a respectful,
19 non-badgering collective effort to stand for
20 CUNY, we would love to do that. We do
21 collect alumni names when we can, and we
22 reach out to people. One in 16 New Yorkers
23 is a CUNY student right now -- and then think
24 of how that multiplies with graduates and
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1 workers. You know, every subway car you get
2 on, there are probably eight people who are
3 involved with CUNY.
4 So we would love to partner with you,
5 and I say this quite seriously. It's a
6 brilliant idea, and perhaps there's a way
7 with the Legislature that would be respectful
8 of people's privacy and not intrusive that we
9 could draw on that very wide network of
10 people who love this university. I mean, it
11 changes lives. There are so many people who
12 say: CUNY made my life, CUNY saved me. They
13 should be a strong force with us. And I
14 would love to partner with you in an
15 appropriate way to do that.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
18 Senator Toby Stavisky, Higher Ed chair
19 in the Senate.
20 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
21 As I was sitting here at the hearing
22 this morning at 10:01 a.m., my email came in
23 and it said "This is the weekend to be in
24 Syracuse, Toby," and it tells me all the
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1 reasons. And at the bottom it says, "Make a
2 gift." Enough said. Let me get to my
3 questions.
4 We've been hearing a great deal about
5 the TAP gap. Are there any structural
6 changes in the governance of CUNY and SUNY
7 that we should look at to avoid this -- to
8 mitigate, perhaps, some of the effects of the
9 TAP gap?
10 DR. KOWAL: I would offer a couple of
11 different ideas on that. I think it's an
12 important question.
13 One of the problems at SUNY, and it
14 has grown to be, I think, a very serious
15 problem, is that -- and I use the term
16 franchisees. Unfortunately, SUNY seems to be
17 less and less of a system than a collection
18 of semi-independent colleges that are left on
19 their own.
20 And so the cases that I highlighted --
21 and that was just a couple, in the interests
22 of time. These campuses are out there on
23 their own dealing with, you know, enrollment
24 challenges, in part because of where they're
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1 located, far upstate, and then secondly
2 because of the structure of the TAP program.
3 And they take a lot of TAP students, a lot of
4 our upstate campuses do, and they are also
5 the ones that are suffering the most.
6 What we find is within SUNY, instead
7 of there being a collective effort to address
8 the structure of the TAP program so that we
9 get rid of the ceiling in terms of what
10 campuses get for full TAP awardees and all
11 TAP awardees, there is instead, you know, a
12 situation literally where campuses, if they
13 fall into financial difficulty, are offered
14 the opportunity to take loans from the
15 system.
16 I don't understand that. SUNY is not
17 a bank. SUNY is one university system. And
18 if there are campuses or the system has the
19 resources, then it must be used to assist
20 those campuses who are taking more TAP
21 students, more full-award TAP students, which
22 means the students who can least afford to go
23 to SUNY. And they're doing the good work,
24 and they should be rewarded for that and not
380
1 punished.
2 So that would be the initial thing in
3 terms of this structure that's become far too
4 decentralized. And with SUNY, with this
5 laissez-faire approach, until the campuses
6 become really troubled economically or
7 financially and then SUNY steps in and says,
8 Well, if you want a loan, we will give you a
9 loan. That is not how the SUNY system ought
10 to operate.
11 DR. BOWEN: I would just add, if I
12 may, that I think the main problem is -- at
13 least as far as CUNY is concerned, is not in
14 the governance of the university but in the
15 structure of the law itself, which mandates
16 that the students don't pay the cost above
17 the maximum TAP award but the colleges absorb
18 that cost, which is about $2,000 a person.
19 And so really it's the law that needs
20 to change. The consequence I'm sure was
21 unintended, and it's punishing the colleges
22 for each student they take who's on a TAP or
23 Excelsior award, and all the new DREAM Act
24 students. So it was not the intended
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1 consequence, and I think it really needs to
2 be changed.
3 And I would also suggest that before
4 the state considers an extension of the SUNY
5 2020 ability to raise tuition $200 every year
6 in advance of the 2025 version, that we look
7 at TAP. And that the tuition-granting
8 authority to raise tuition should not be
9 permitted, should not be incorporated this
10 year. It should be done -- we think it
11 should not be done at all, and it certainly
12 shouldn't be done as a stand-alone before the
13 rest of the law comes in.
14 MR. PALLOTTA: And this had been only
15 an issue for the four-year campuses, and now
16 the community colleges are also seeing the
17 same thing. Because state support is
18 25 percent; it should be 40 percent. And the
19 students are putting in more.
20 SENATOR STAVISKY: One quick question.
21 Actually, I have another. Two quick
22 questions.
23 The contract that was just signed
24 by -- fortunately just signed and ratified by
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1 Professional Staff Congress, are there any
2 suggestions in terms of the payment or
3 coverage for the mandated costs as well as
4 some of the other costs, the rentals and --
5 you know, and the maintenance of effort, if
6 you --
7 DR. BOWEN: Certainly the union -- the
8 PSC and CUNY administration are united in
9 calling for those costs to be covered. That
10 is the cost across the board of across the
11 board increases.
12 And in the past, what the colleges
13 have had to do is sequester 2 percent out of
14 their budgets to cover that anticipated cost.
15 That means that something is being cut, or
16 else tuition is being imposed, an increase --
17 SENATOR STAVISKY: That's my point.
18 DR. BOWEN: That is not fair. We --
19 the purpose of our contract was not to raise
20 students' tuition. We are in solidarity with
21 them.
22 Nor is it to cut another program,
23 because the benefit of your raise is
24 diminished if then you come to your
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1 department and find that you have no Xerox
2 paper and you can't hire anyone. You don't
3 feel so -- that your raise is so valuable
4 when your working conditions every day are
5 sabotaging your work.
6 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Assemblymember
9 Epstein.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: I want to really
11 thank you all for highlighting some of the
12 structural problems we have here and really
13 advocating to deal with the TAP gap and raise
14 the TAP payment for students.
15 I wanted to focus on a different
16 topic, because we've heard a lot around
17 mental health services for students and the
18 dire need that we see students placed in, and
19 the ration that currently exists. Can you
20 tell us what's going on on campuses and what
21 you're hearing from students around the lack
22 of adequate mental health services and what
23 impact that's having on our students across
24 the state?
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1 DR. KOWAL: Well, I would just
2 basically share two things.
3 One is with the -- certainly with the
4 economic stress that students are under,
5 these issues have become more and more
6 severe. We have heard, through the course of
7 today, the electronic communication system
8 for counseling, well, that's based at
9 Upstate. And the amount of the money that is
10 budgeted for that is only $700,000. The
11 number of calls they get, you know, it's off
12 the chart.
13 And so again, the lack of funding
14 becomes a problem. And if we are serious in
15 ensuring that students have the best possible
16 setting for their education and for their
17 lives, there needs to be a greater investment
18 for that sort of resource.
19 DR. BOWEN: The national accrediting
20 organization on psychological mental health
21 counselors recommends at college a ratio of
22 one counselor to 1,000 students, assuming
23 that students have other forms of support --
24 one to a thousand.
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1 At CUNY the current ratio is one to
2 2,700. So I think that tells a story.
3 Then add to that the fact that most of
4 our students suffer tremendous odds,
5 encounter tremendous odds. And of course the
6 biggest stressor, one of -- the biggest,
7 certainly, material stressor of all is
8 poverty. So we strongly support the premise
9 that there should be more mental health
10 counselors.
11 But the union opposes the way that
12 CUNY has proposed to address that, which is a
13 kind of ironic imposition of a mental health
14 and wellness fee, an additional $120 fee,
15 that many students simply can't afford to
16 pay. And when one of the biggest stressors
17 is poverty, together with, you know, working
18 at low-wage jobs, being a parent, the
19 constant racism in our society -- and then to
20 address it, you add a fee -- that's not the
21 appropriate way to address it. So we need
22 to -- the state needs to step up and invest
23 there.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Well, thank you
386
1 for saying that. I agree that the fees
2 aren't appropriate, and there are so many
3 fees -- book fees, miscellaneous fees that
4 TAP doesn't cover and students have to pay
5 out of pocket. I think if we move towards
6 reducing those fees, that would be great.
7 I know I'm out of time, but I want to
8 ask you about looking for dedicated funding
9 streams for CUNY and SUNY, what you think
10 about having dedicated streams of funding
11 that could go directly to our public higher
12 education system.
13 DR. KOWAL: I think that Barbara put
14 it best, in terms of the necessity for us to
15 address the revenue side. If we are
16 committed to a public good, which is what
17 public higher education is, then the society
18 must invest. And right now we have the
19 resources to do it. It's just a matter of
20 making sure that the instruments are put in
21 place. And it's over time, it's past time
22 for this to be done.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
24 Senator Robert Jackson, I didn't ask
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1 you in advance, but I bet I know you do have
2 a question.
3 SENATOR JACKSON: And you're right.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I know you very
5 well.
6 (Laughter.)
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Robert
8 Jackson.
9 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you.
10 So very quick, I understand that
11 there's been no increase in the budget this
12 year compared to last year. So when it talks
13 about maintenance of effort, is there enough
14 money to run your programs and give all of
15 the raises that educators rightfully deserve?
16 Can you do that, in your opinion, without
17 cutting back on staff and cutting back on
18 programs?
19 DR. BOWEN: I'm not in charge of that,
20 but my answer would be no. The budget is
21 essentially flat. There's an increase in the
22 fringe benefits part of the fringe benefit
23 increase; $24.3 million is covered. There
24 are some other increases the chancellor spoke
388
1 about to a program here and there. Those are
2 all good.
3 But when the costs of rent and
4 electricity that go up, when other licensing
5 costs go up and are not covered, and when a
6 2 percent increase across the board for
7 30,000 people is not covered, that money has
8 got to come from somewhere.
9 SENATOR JACKSON: So how much more
10 money would you need in the budget -- I think
11 in your testimony you said you needed --
12 DR. BOWEN: Right, we said 208 million
13 for unmet mandatory needs and the TAP gap at
14 the senior colleges. Just the unmet
15 mandatory needs, the way that CUNY management
16 puts them together, I think they have
17 126 million. So it's --
18 SENATOR JACKSON: And that's just to
19 meet CUNY.
20 DR. BOWEN: Just CUNY. And that
21 doesn't cover the community college base aid.
22 This is a -- so for the community colleges,
23 another 25 million.
24 SENATOR JACKSON: And with respect to
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1 SUNY -- when the chancellor for CUNY was
2 there, he talked about people in the district
3 that were employees or graduated from CUNY.
4 Well, there are four members of my family
5 that have graduated from SUNY -- three from
6 SUNY New Paltz and one from the University at
7 Buffalo.
8 So with respect to the SUNY budget,
9 how does that impact, from your perspective
10 as the president of UUP, with respect to your
11 staff?
12 DR. KOWAL: It's incredibly difficult
13 to see any kind of optimistic future, I hate
14 to say it, when I travel across the state.
15 And I have visited all of the campuses many
16 times, as the chancellor has said she has
17 visited the campuses. I hope she's listening
18 to what people are saying, because campuses
19 are suffering. They have budgets that are
20 requiring, even at the university centers, to
21 have hiring freezes? There is not enough
22 money to pay the necessary costs.
23 And when you look at the SUNY
24 hospitals, as I described the situation just
390
1 at Upstate -- and Upstate is in good shape
2 financially -- there is a real danger in
3 terms of services not being done and, in
4 terms of the hospitals, lives endangered.
5 That's the reality.
6 SENATOR JACKSON: So here's a question
7 for both of you. And I only have 19 seconds.
8 With respect to the TAP gap, if in fact the
9 proposal to continue tuition increase through
10 '24-'25, if that was eliminated and we freeze
11 it, what impact would that have on both CUNY
12 and SUNY? That's my last question.
13 DR. BOWEN: It would freeze the amount
14 of the TAP gap. Of course it's dependent on
15 enrollment. But of course every time that
16 the -- so it would freeze the amount of that.
17 And the real solution, of course, is I would
18 say to eliminate tuition. But certainly that
19 would stop some of the growth.
20 SENATOR JACKSON: SUNY?
21 DR. KOWAL: Yeah, exactly. It would
22 freeze the growth of the TAP gap. And that
23 would be a help, but the gap would still
24 remain in terms of lost resources.
391
1 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you.
2 Thank you, Madam Chair.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
4 Assembly.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Assemblymember
6 Hyndman.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you,
8 Chair.
9 Just a quick question, because some of
10 my other questions were asked. For Andrew,
11 do you keep a number of how many of your
12 members are SUNY or CUNY grads?
13 MR. PALLOTTA: Off the top of my head,
14 I don't know. And we certainly -- we could
15 certainly -- we don't because those records
16 would be kept by SUNY in their HR offices, so
17 we don't know where individual faculty
18 members, for instance, get their terminal
19 degrees or where they receive their
20 undergraduate --
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: No, it was
22 just along the lines of the questions that
23 Chairwoman Glick was asking about, you know,
24 making sure that the masses realize what's at
392
1 stake here.
2 I mean, I went to SUNY New Paltz --
3 yay -- so I often get solicitations for --
4 MR. PALLOTTA: Right, when we're out
5 in the halls of the Capitol and the LOB, we
6 see the posters that say all these folks went
7 to SUNY and all these folks went to CUNY. So
8 we know that there's a lot out there, but we
9 don't actually have that stat. That would be
10 an interesting --
11 DR. KOWAL: We could survey members,
12 but -- you know, and it's getting back to the
13 earlier question. What I would like to see
14 is for us to find those alumni of SUNY and
15 those especially who are at the higher income
16 levels and get them involved in a campaign
17 where they exert pressure and say they are
18 willing to pay more in taxes to support the
19 public university system. I think that could
20 go a long way to help as well.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Anyone else? I
23 have just one question. So I'm reading a
24 paper put out by the Center on Budget and
393
1 Policy Priorities, a well-respected liberal
2 think tank, and it's showing me that all the
3 states have cut funding for higher education
4 over the last decade. But it's showing
5 New York basically at the least cuts; we're
6 like only down 2 percent.
7 So I'm wondering, besides the fact
8 that we don't invest enough and we probably
9 didn't 10 years ago either, are we spending
10 it wrong? Because if you look at their data,
11 we aren't doing as badly as most of the other
12 50 states. So I'm really curious whether we
13 also think that when we have the money, we're
14 not using it correctly for our colleges.
15 DR. BOWEN: No, I think what has to be
16 factored in there is TAP. We'd have to look
17 carefully at those statistics because many of
18 them put TAP as the Governor's budget does,
19 put TAP right in there as an allocation. And
20 also as the Governor's budget does, as you
21 know, puts any authorization for an increase
22 in tuition as an increase in the budget.
23 So you are great at reading these, so
24 we should look at them together. Because TAP
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1 is a program that covers many students:
2 56,000 students at CUNY. New York has an
3 unusual program with TAP -- remember, it goes
4 to the private colleges and for-profit
5 colleges as well as the public colleges. But
6 that's where our spending is concentrated,
7 and not in the operating budgets.
8 And that's why we're cutting classes.
9 I mean, that's why at Queens College the
10 semester began with telling them they'd have
11 to cut a thousand seats out of basic English
12 courses. I mean, we are hurting already, let
13 along what would happen next year.
14 So I think we'd have to look at those
15 figures and consider TAP in there.
16 DR. KOWAL: I think the other part of
17 this is that some other states have just, you
18 know, gone through some draconian cuts. We
19 saw what happened at the University of
20 Alaska, but other states where there have
21 been massive cuts. And so, you know, if we
22 set the bar low enough, then New York is
23 going to look okay.
24 I think the other problem too is --
395
1 and we heard some pointed questions this
2 morning concerning the issue of diversity in
3 SUNY, in the faculty and staff specifically.
4 One of the problems that we see all the time
5 is because of the inability or the
6 unwillingness of campuses to recruit and
7 retain faculty members from communities of
8 color -- and that means paying them
9 competitive salaries because there's a great
10 deal of demand across higher education for
11 these highly skilled individuals. Which is
12 why UUP has proposed taking the successful
13 EOP program, providing a program like that
14 specifically for medical education, to get
15 more diversity into our medical schools and
16 in the medical profession.
17 And by the way, I just want to make
18 that note as well. Though we are thankful
19 that the Governor did not cut the Opportunity
20 Programs this year, I for one am not going to
21 celebrate that. I think that, you know,
22 having four straight years of flat budgets in
23 Opportunity Programs is not a good thing. I
24 think that what's necessary is for those
396
1 programs to grow. They're very successful,
2 and they help address the issue of access.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you for all
4 being with us here this afternoon.
5 Appreciate it.
6 MR. PALLOTTA: Thank you.
7 DR. BOWEN: Thank you so much.
8 DR. KOWAL: Thank you.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
10 All right. And our next is a panel of
11 CUNY University Student Senate -- oh, I'm
12 sorry, excuse me. Blair Horner, NYPIRG --
13 thank you -- before we get to the panel. And
14 there may also be Santana Alvarado --
15 MS. ALVARADO: Hello.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Hello.
17 -- chairperson, NYPIRG. Sorry, I
18 turned the page too quickly.
19 MR. HORNER: Ready?
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes, when you're
21 ready.
22 MS. ALVARADO: Good afternoon. My
23 name is Santana Alvarado, and I am the
24 chairperson of the New York Public Interest
397
1 Research Group's Student Board of Directors
2 and a City University of New York Hunter
3 College student.
4 With me today is Wali Ullah, a NYPIRG
5 policy associate and a student at City
6 College, as well as Blair Horner, NYPIRG's
7 executive director.
8 NYPIRG is a statewide nonpartisan,
9 nonprofit organization founded by college
10 students in 1973 to engage their peers in
11 civic life. NYPIRG's broad programmatic work
12 provides students with a range of
13 opportunities to participate in public
14 affairs and advance responses to social
15 problems that matter most to them.
16 Our board of directors consists of
17 college and university students elected from
18 the State University of New York, CUNY, and
19 independent college campuses with NYPIRG
20 chapters.
21 Before I get into our testimony on
22 behalf of NYPIRG, thank you so much for last
23 year's approval of the Senator Jose Peralta
24 DREAM Act. We worked closely with Senator
398
1 Peralta for years, and thank you for
2 broadening financial aid eligibility to
3 undocumented immigrant public college
4 students.
5 You have our written testimony, and
6 I'd like to underscore some recommendations
7 for your consideration. In terms of tuition
8 policy, as you will see in our testimony, the
9 financial impact of New York's policy of
10 annually increasing public college tuition
11 has increased the costs of attending SUNY and
12 CUNY by billions of dollars. Yet from
13 anecdotal evidence that we've seen and heard,
14 the state's commitment to maintain financial
15 support has fallen far short.
16 As you will see in our testimony,
17 public colleges across the state have
18 reported declining services and cutbacks to
19 meet the educational needs of students. In
20 short, it looks like students are paying a
21 lot more and not getting enhanced services.
22 In fact, at least in some cases we are
23 getting less. The clearest evidence of this
24 problem is the TAP gap, which we urge you to
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1 close.
2 Tuition hikes should be stopped.
3 NYPIRG urges you to freeze college tuition
4 rates and to reject the Governor's proposal
5 for additional annual hikes for the next five
6 years.
7 In terms of financial aid, as you will
8 see in our testimony, there are a number of
9 issues we would address. In our view, the
10 most critical step that you can take is to
11 modernize the state's TAP program. The
12 current system creates campus-specific budget
13 gaps resulting from the growing difference
14 between the maximum TAP award and the
15 mushrooming tuition costs.
16 In addition, deserving students, such
17 as graduate students, have lost public
18 support. TAP needs to be modernized to help
19 today's college students to provide coverage
20 for graduate and part-time students and
21 incarcerated individuals, as well as other
22 enhancements. Such changes will benefit both
23 the public and independent sectors.
24 MR. ULLAH: We applaud the Governor's
400
1 proposal to maintain the funding levels for
2 the state's various Opportunity Programs.
3 Financial aid should, first and foremost,
4 help low- and moderate-income college
5 students and their families to make it
6 through their studies.
7 As you know, there has been an annual
8 budget dance, so to speak, in which the
9 Governor proposes less funding for
10 Opportunity Programs and the Legislature adds
11 it back in. But the result has been simply
12 status quo funding -- essentially a cut, when
13 factoring in inflation.
14 The Governor's support for these
15 programs is important. His plan opens the
16 door to further enhancement of these
17 incredibly successful efforts. Just a few
18 observations from our written testimony.
19 First-year retention, where a student
20 re-enrolls for a second year, for SUNY senior
21 college EOP students is 91 percent, whereas
22 first-year retention students from the
23 general student body at senior colleges in
24 SUNY is approximately 84 percent.
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1 Secondly, the six-year graduation rate
2 for EOP students is 73 percent, whereas the
3 rate for non-EOP students at SUNY is 68
4 percent.
5 Clearly these programs work, and they
6 deserve additional support. And SUNY's ASAP
7 should also be restored.
8 MS. ALVARADO: NYPIRG urges you to
9 restore cuts to the community colleges.
10 As you will see in our testimony, the
11 situation in CUNY and SUNY is dramatically
12 different. The City University of New York
13 has maintained low tuition and has a stable
14 community college system. SUNY community
15 colleges, on the other hand, have seen
16 plummeting enrollments and have had to hike
17 tuition in order to meet financial
18 obligations. The CUNY system should not be
19 penalized for its support and its efforts,
20 and the SUNY system needs help. We urge
21 restorations.
22 In addition, we urge restorations to
23 SUNY and CUNY childcare programs, which are
24 vital to students.
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1 Lastly, we live in an era of rapid
2 climate changes which could easily lead to
3 climate catastrophe for the planet. We urge
4 and support the sustainability efforts in
5 both SUNY and CUNY as well as the independent
6 college sectors.
7 Thank you for the opportunity to
8 testify.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
10 First up, Deborah Glick, Higher
11 Education, Assembly.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: You've heard
13 that the TAP gap is an enormous amount of
14 money. It's not going to happen -- if we
15 were able to make adjustments, it would cost
16 something like $50 million a year for several
17 years.
18 Do you have thoughts about what -- how
19 the government should view eliminating that?
20 MR. HORNER: Just to add, we talk
21 about in our testimony that the best way to
22 deal with it would be to restore the TAP
23 program. Prior to SUNY 2020, the deal was
24 when tuition went up, the maximum TAP award
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1 went up, and you didn't have a TAP gap.
2 And so if it ultimately comes down to
3 that, that would be our preference, and
4 certainly in the short term to fill the gap
5 with student resources is one way to sort of
6 deal with it, but it does turn into sort of
7 an annual problem. And as tuition goes up,
8 the gap gets bigger and the hit to the
9 colleges gets bigger. And you've heard
10 the -- all morning, all afternoon, and into
11 the evening how the TAP gap causes problems
12 on college campuses, and we document some of
13 that in our testimony.
14 But again, we think the best solution
15 would be to just start dealing with the TAP
16 program and do what it's supposed to do.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: NYPIRG over the
18 years has done a very effective job of
19 raising awareness of issues, and thank you
20 for doing that. And I've talked to some of
21 my friends in labor about how do we reach out
22 to alumni, and some of the students -- not
23 all -- many of the students are first in
24 their family to go to school, but they may
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1 have neighbors who are not.
2 Do you have suggestions or thoughts
3 about what we can do to raise awareness and
4 activate alumni to take a more active role in
5 advocating? Since you've obviously been able
6 to get students engaged.
7 MS. ALVARADO: Right. So I'm
8 graduating, upcoming in June, so I'll soon be
9 an alumna. And I don't know, I feel
10 personally on campus, as a student, there's a
11 lot of isolation going on about what we can
12 talk about and what we feel like we're going
13 through alone versus other students.
14 And I feel like that would continue on
15 into alumni realm. I feel like people are
16 dealing with trauma from going to CUNY and
17 SUNY. They're dealing with anxiety and
18 they're dealing with not having college work
19 out the way they thought it would in the
20 economy as it changes and as, you know, the
21 market changes and technology changes.
22 So I feel like engaging them on like
23 how they actually felt about going to CUNY
24 and SUNY, I think you'd be a little surprised
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1 about what people say about the colleges that
2 you all went to. And that shouldn't be --
3 you know, you shouldn't just reach out to
4 alumni to be like, Yo, we want to know what
5 you have to say and we want your money -- we
6 want to actually know how they felt and what
7 they would have changed. Because we're
8 encouraging students from high school to go
9 to CUNY and SUNY, and are we going to still
10 have those same problems when they graduate?
11 So I think just meeting them heart to
12 heart and saying, honestly, I'm sorry you had
13 to go through what you went through when you
14 were a student.
15 MR. HORNER: Just --
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Do you have to
17 prove that you have health insurance when you
18 go to school?
19 MS. ALVARADO: Yes? No, I don't
20 believe I've had to prove that I've had
21 health insurance. I also don't go to my
22 campus at all to get any health services.
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Well, I'm just
24 wondering that -- this institution of a fee
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1 for mental health services was the latest
2 little wrinkle. So I'm wondering whether or
3 not students are being asked to pay a fee for
4 which they already have coverage, and like
5 what's that about.
6 MR. HORNER: Again, we -- there's a
7 lot of issues with various fees. I mean, as
8 you know, under state law and federal law,
9 people are covered up to the age of 26 and 29
10 respectively, if their parents have insurance
11 and they're willing to pay the rider to do
12 it. If they're low-income, they're eligible
13 for Medicaid.
14 The fee is, you know, certainly from
15 our view the kind of thing that should be
16 coming out of tuition. And if you're going
17 to have tuition, which we don't even like
18 that either. But not that it would be a
19 separate fee.
20 So again, I defer to their experience
21 in college. And I'm not, as you can tell.
22 But in terms of sort of the structure of
23 those issues, that's the way we'd look at it.
24 Let me just mention one quick thing
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1 about the alums. You asked the unions about
2 it before. The tricky part is how do you get
3 the list. And then in an organization,
4 little organization like ours, how do you
5 work through the students to get to build a
6 list.
7 What we have done in the past, which
8 has been somewhat successful, is working with
9 the community near the campus that benefits
10 from the existence of it, in the same way as
11 you would with any large employer. There's
12 many, many, many small businesses. And
13 because they're in a contained geographic
14 area, it's easier to get to them than it is
15 to a diffuse alum situation where, you know,
16 people could be anywhere and it's hard to
17 track them down and may be more expensive.
18 So that's the way we've sort of tried
19 to attack in terms of broadening the sort of
20 the coalition effort around these issues, is
21 to look at the various community elements
22 that are connected to the campus itself and
23 close enough by that you could get them
24 activated. And they understand why it's
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1 important.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Toby Stavisky,
4 Senate Higher Ed.
5 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
6 I know NYPIRG very well, as Blair
7 knows, and I know you not only are speaking
8 for the college students, but you've also
9 done a lot of work over the years in terms of
10 environmental issues.
11 And how do you -- any suggestions for
12 SUNY and CUNY and the independent colleges in
13 terms of protecting our environment,
14 sustainability issues?
15 MR. HORNER: Yeah, we offered some
16 detailed testimony on that, I think it was
17 last month or the month before. I'll gladly
18 send it to you, Senator, in terms of these
19 ideas. I mean, it's -- it's the -- I mean,
20 when I talk to people on colleges, this is
21 the single biggest thing they bring up
22 because it's their future. If you believe
23 science, their future is threatened.
24 And so it's the same across the board,
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1 no matter what institution we're in, that's
2 what you hear the most, is about climate
3 change. And so we had specific suggestions
4 reacting to I think the SUNY chancellor's
5 ideas in the hearings that occurred, and I'm
6 glad to get them to you.
7 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly? Anyone
9 else?
10 MR. HORNER: Could I just mention one
11 quick thing before I go? Assemblymember
12 Epstein brought up the questions about the
13 breakdown in TAP. The HESC annual report
14 which is out breaks it down very detailed in
15 terms of numbers of recipients by sector, by
16 how much money they get.
17 And there was an issue brought up
18 about how many -- the percentage of people
19 that benefit from the Excelsior program that
20 apply. Syracuse.com put out an analysis a
21 few months ago that showed about half of the
22 people who applied for Excelsior get it, and
23 of the remaining half, half of them do not
24 get it for other reasons. So about a quarter
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1 of the people who apply receive it.
2 And then we have some interesting data
3 on Excelsior on page 12 of our testimony
4 which looks at the current academic year and
5 compares it to last year, to look at the
6 numbers that might be useful in terms of your
7 deliberations.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
9 much.
10 MS. ALVARADO: Thank you.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Now we go to a
12 panel of CUNY University Student Senate:
13 Timothy Hunter, Nicole Agu, and Juvanie
14 Piquant.
15 Hi. You're sharing five minutes, so
16 make sure that you don't cut each other
17 off -- or don't go on too long so that the
18 other can't speak a little bit. Okay?
19 MS. PIQUANT: Good afternoon,
20 everyone. Thank you, members of the Senate
21 and Assembly. Thank you for holding this
22 hearing. I see many --
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Hold the
24 microphone a little closer.
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1 MS. PIQUANT: I see many familiar
2 faces. I'm pretty sure you know why we're
3 here. But quite frankly, I don't think we
4 should be here. We have classes, and we're
5 missing class to go advocate for a quality
6 and fully funded higher education, where I
7 quite frankly think it's ridiculous. But
8 allow me to divulge into the list of issues
9 that we have over at CUNY.
10 My name is Juvanie Piquant. I am a
11 sophomore at City Tech majoring in law and
12 paralegal studies. But this journey hasn't
13 been easy. I pay every single dollar out of
14 my own pocket for tuition. Yes, 70 percent
15 of our students go to college for free, but
16 I'm a part of that percentage that does not.
17 Even the percentage that does go to school
18 for free are still impacted by the TAP gap
19 and these irrational tuition increases.
20 For us to be here on a Tuesday
21 afternoon pleading for the investment we
22 deserve in a quality higher education is
23 quite frankly ridiculous. Fully funded
24 higher education is a right, and it is not
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1 something we should be begging for.
2 Amongst the many problems we are
3 facing at CUNY senior colleges, our community
4 colleges are also being affected as well.
5 We've been experiencing a drastic enrollment
6 decrease in community colleges. However,
7 that doesn't mean quality resources should be
8 decreased as well.
9 With the new faculty contract, we need
10 the State Legislature to step up for
11 additional funding or else the burden will
12 fall on the backs of students. We are
13 calling for an increase in base aid funding
14 for community colleges. The Executive Budget
15 maintains base operating aid for community
16 colleges at $2,947 per full-time equivalent
17 student. However, the 98 percent funding
18 floor that was included in the enacted budget
19 is not continued, resulting in a $3.6 million
20 decrease in base aid funding.
21 We support CUNY's budget requesting a
22 funding increase by $250 per student in
23 community college funding and restore
24 98 percent funding for the 2018-2019 level.
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1 This brings me to my second point.
2 Childcare center funding --
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And you've used
4 up half the time for the three of you. So
5 I'm just letting you know.
6 MS. AGU: Hi, everyone. My name is
7 Nicole Agu, and I'm an international student
8 at the College of Staten Island in the City
9 University of New York.
10 I'm studying dual majors in accounting
11 and international business, and minoring in
12 finance and business data analytics, and I
13 currently serve as a student government
14 senator, club commissioner, and the
15 University Student Senate delegate on my CUNY
16 campus. In addition, I serve as the vice
17 chair for international students in the
18 University Student Senate in CUNY.
19 And I also want to appreciate every
20 Senator here for holding a hearing to listen
21 to students' testimony on how urgent it is
22 that you should consider funding CUNY
23 entirely.
24 So as an international student, we are
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1 required by the federal government to show to
2 the college that we can support ourselves
3 financially in the United States. That is
4 sufficient funding based on the projected
5 tuition and fees at that time.
6 And why am I emphasizing on this?
7 Because the tuition hikes every year, it
8 affects the projected tuition that we are
9 supposed to show for it, you know, as a
10 financial aid throughout our college journey.
11 But with the projected tuition, it's
12 overshadowed when the tuition keeps
13 increasing, and so that creates a really
14 heavy financial burden on us, as we already
15 pay three times more than the domestic
16 students.
17 So I'm trying to share my story that
18 it has not been easy for me, considering that
19 I've been here on my own, catering for
20 myself, applying for scholarships,
21 contributing to the economy in the best way
22 that I can, and it is very important that
23 higher education should be invested, because
24 every student, regardless of their status,
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1 deserves an affordable college education.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
3 And then I'm going to move over to our
4 third testifier.
5 MR. HUNTER: So my name is Timothy
6 Hunter, and I'm the student trustee for the
7 City University of New York and the
8 University Student Senate chairperson. I'm
9 also the student government president at
10 New York City College of Technology, which
11 Assemblymember Jo Anne Simon represents.
12 So, you know, I think -- again,
13 Senator Liz Krueger, I think that it's so sad
14 and kind of sickening for me personally that
15 we bring students all the way from the city
16 to come here to Albany to fight for something
17 that they deserve. And for us to only get
18 five minutes to speak, I think that's
19 something that we should strongly consider.
20 After sitting here and having to listen to
21 the chancellor and other people dancing
22 around questions, direct questions, like
23 Assemblymember Epstein asked, do you
24 appreciate the funding that you got in the
416
1 budget, and people couldn't even give a
2 straight answer.
3 So I think that the only -- I had some
4 things that I wanted to say, but the only
5 thing I'm going to say is this is not just a
6 funding issue, this is an equity issue. I
7 think that CUNY serves a population of
8 students a majority of which are black and
9 brown students, a majority of which are
10 immigrant students. And to have
11 international students who pay almost triple
12 the price and students who go for, quote
13 unquote, free through TAP awards, still not
14 getting the same education, I think it's sad.
15 My library closes at 8 o'clock now because of
16 the TAP gap, so I get out of class at 8:30 --
17 all my classes get out at 8:30 or 9 o'clock
18 because, you know, I do this as my day job.
19 And for me to not even have a library to go
20 to -- like if I don't have internet at home,
21 if my public library is closed, how do I even
22 study for class?
23 You know, and I think that -- again,
24 I'm going to just reiterate, this is an
417
1 equity issue. Cuts to ASAP? ASAP only helps
2 students from low socioeconomic backgrounds.
3 There's an ASAP student behind me, right,
4 that went from a 2.4 GPA to the Dean's List
5 because he started receiving ASAP.
6 And I think that it's super important
7 that we try to like, you know, preserve these
8 programs. And it's not just the he said, she
9 said, the Republicans, the Democrats, the
10 Governor, the Budget Director -- this is the
11 time where the State Legislature steps up and
12 does what they can. It's not waiting for a
13 veto-proof majority, this is doing what we
14 need to do to fund public higher education
15 and make sure that it's a right.
16 So thank you.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
18 Deborah Glick, Higher Ed, Assembly.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: I very much
20 appreciate your referencing the impacts, the
21 real-life impacts. So if you are working,
22 you take classes -- I spent a lot of time
23 working full-time, going to -- of course I
24 didn't have to worry about tuition.
418
1 So you said your library closes at 8.
2 What is the general circumstance, that on
3 most classes where the limitation that you
4 have on accessing the same services that some
5 other student who can go during the day
6 full-time isn't facing?
7 MR. HUNTER: So I think that this is
8 something that is a campus-by-campus basis.
9 Because of the TAP gap, which
10 disproportionately affects schools that take
11 in more TAP recipients -- and I'm pretty sure
12 you know this. So let's say if School A
13 takes in 80 percent TAP recipients and
14 School B takes in almost 40 percent, and
15 like, you know, School B has more students
16 coming in paying that full tuition and
17 therefore would have more revenue. But then
18 looking at School A that says, Well, I'll
19 take in more of these TAP recipients, they're
20 being disproportionately affected.
21 So schools like City Tech, when I last
22 spoke to President Hotzler, I think it's like
23 60 percent. That's where like the TAP --
24 like the amount of students that are coming
419
1 with the TAP.
2 And I think the worst part about it is
3 City Tech is a comprehensive school -- and
4 I'm pretty sure Assemblymember Jo Anne Simon
5 knows this -- so they offer associate degree
6 programs and bachelor degree programs. But
7 at CUNY, our associate degree tuition is
8 around $4,000 and our senior college tuition
9 is around $6,900. So guess which price the
10 students that are going to City Tech for an
11 associate's degree program are paying? Of
12 course that senior college amount.
13 So now even if you're -- like you get
14 an associate's degree and you're receiving
15 this TAP award for your associate's degree,
16 you're still paying more just because you
17 went to a comprehensive school rather than
18 going to a community college.
19 And I think when it gets into the tit
20 for tat city versus state, who's going to put
21 in what for what, I think that like the
22 students are at the fray of all this. And we
23 heard from an international student who is
24 battling home insecurities right now. And
420
1 you would think because she pays triple
2 she'll get triple the education, but she's
3 dealing with the same problems that we are.
4 You know?
5 So I think it's really sad and
6 disheartening that, you know, we have to deal
7 with this. Because if you ask any other
8 administrator from CUNY or SUNY or from
9 anywhere, straight up, they're like, Oh,
10 well, you know, there's this percentage and
11 this percentage. But it's real people, and I
12 think that's what we need to look at in the
13 State Legislature.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Are there
15 other -- it's not just tuition, because
16 there's also fees.
17 MR. HUNTER: Yes.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Which are the
19 most difficult fees to justify from your
20 point of view?
21 MR. HUNTER: I think --
22 MS. PIQUANT: Fees? I think all fees
23 are a little ridiculous for us to justify. I
24 just want to put it on the record, for the
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1 mental health fee, we students are not here
2 for it. Why do we have to pay for mental
3 health services or health and wellness or
4 whatever that becomes, and it takes six
5 months on some campuses to see a counselor?
6 Is that really seeing a counselor? I mean,
7 these are human beings that we're dealing
8 with. We are real people.
9 You know, we have a student like my
10 colleague, she was battling home insecurity
11 and she had to spend her whole winter break
12 trying to figure out where she's going to put
13 a roof over her head. But she's still here
14 today. So --
15 MR. HUNTER: I think that -- like just
16 piggybacking off what the vice chair of
17 legislative affairs, Juvanie Piquant, had
18 stated, the health and wellness fee is
19 something that kind of caught us off guard as
20 students because, you know, you're coming in
21 thinking okay, we're going to fight tuition
22 hikes, we're going to try to get this money
23 for the TAP gap, and then out of left field
24 you're seeing this health and wellness fee.
422
1 Because we spent the whole of the year prior
2 talking about the lack of mental health
3 services on our campuses, so it's like, Oh,
4 wait, so we talk about it so you can shift it
5 on us to pay it?
6 And I think that right now we're still
7 waiting for -- because if you look at CUNY's
8 budget proposal, the breakdown isn't really
9 there. So like, you know, it's kind of
10 interesting, you know, like -- just like
11 three or four sentences on the health and
12 wellness fee. So the board and everybody is
13 still kind of waiting for those documents.
14 I've got a chance to look at some. But, you
15 know, we're still working on whatever that
16 is.
17 But I think that it just shows that
18 the state disinvestment is too -- it's too
19 like -- it's just so distant, you know? Even
20 with the telecounseling, I know that there's
21 been cuts to that at the SUNY side too, which
22 is truly disappointing. You know, because
23 it's like you're going to try to shift it
24 onto students and if enrollment declines,
423
1 that means that we're going to lose a
2 guidance counselor? Like -- like, you know,
3 I think that it just doesn't make sense,
4 especially for our smaller schools. I wonder
5 how that's going to help them, you know.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you.
7 Thank you very much, A, for being here
8 waiting all day and for the fact that you're,
9 you know, still working hard to get through
10 school. And I appreciate that.
11 MR. HUNTER: Thank you so much,
12 Assemblymember Glick.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Toby
14 Stavisky.
15 SENATOR STAVISKY: We've spent a lot
16 of time together. I said earlier, I don't
17 know if you were here, that the Higher Ed
18 Committee in the Senate held hearings
19 throughout the state, from Buffalo to
20 Nassau County, and without question the
21 students were the stars of the testimony that
22 we received. And Tim and our -- his
23 colleagues and I have discussed many of these
24 issues, and I thank you.
424
1 I also asked about the fees, because I
2 thought they were a little bit unfair.
3 Is there anything you want to add to
4 your testimony? Because I really appreciate
5 your coming not only here, but also to the EI
6 hearings and for your work as student
7 government leaders.
8 MR. HUNTER: There are some -- oh, I'm
9 sorry, you get to go first.
10 MS. AGU: So as an international
11 student, it's very obvious that we are not
12 eligible for any of the financial assistance
13 that CUNY offers to their students, like TAP,
14 ASAP, financial aid and all that. So -- and
15 even scholarship opportunities are very,
16 very -- stressing the "very" -- limited for
17 international students, because even students
18 who receive scholarship opportunities, they
19 still pay half of their tuition or more than
20 half of their tuition.
21 So I'm in this position as a vice
22 chair representing all international students
23 because I was once an international student
24 peer advisor, and I counseled international
425
1 students like myself, and I heard their own
2 stories. And it's -- like Tim said, it's sad
3 that the financial pressure is just so much
4 on the students that sometimes the option is
5 to drop out. And I feel like if we were to
6 come in terms with, you know, ideas and
7 strategic plans in order to close this gap,
8 which you've mentioned time without number
9 that it can't happen in a year, that would
10 help international students to, you know,
11 plan strategically for their projected
12 tuition budget, and would also provide more
13 scholarship opportunities for them.
14 MR. HUNTER: I think that, you know,
15 in addition to what Nicole has said, there's
16 two things that I definitely want to
17 highlight for like, I guess, the State
18 Legislature. Number one being that the
19 DREAM Act, even though I think it was a
20 really great program, I think that there's
21 still some kinks to work out in terms of like
22 transparency of information.
23 But our student leaders on campuses,
24 some of these student leaders are Dreamers as
426
1 well, and they're undocumented students. But
2 because they're undocumented, they're not
3 eligible for some of the stipends from the
4 student activity fee, because I think they're
5 treated as tax-levy dollars.
6 So I think that this is -- I think my
7 predecessors have tried to get it into the
8 DREAM Act in terms of allowing Dreamers to
9 have access to a stipend. Because what we're
10 doing is we're saying, hey, listen, you're
11 going to pay this fee but you're not going to
12 be able to benefit if you serve as a student
13 leader.
14 And I know that on this panel we have
15 some former student leaders as well. And I
16 think that sometimes a small compensation can
17 help with paying tuition if you're in that,
18 what is it, like 25 percent of like students
19 that get rejected by HESC. You know, I think
20 that like if you're in that group, I think
21 the least that we can do is provide you with
22 some sort of stipend.
23 There's actually a predecessor that
24 served in this position as a student trustee
427
1 that did not get paid at all. And I think
2 that like it's kind of disappointing that
3 someone's out here putting their life on the
4 line for students, traveling to Albany every
5 other week, talking with so many elected
6 officials. And for you to just not have any
7 means, you know, I think that's something
8 that's a stand-alone bill that I'm pretty
9 sure right here we can probably pass. But I
10 think that's something to consider.
11 The second thing that I would take a
12 look at is those portables at Medgar Evers
13 College. I'm pretty sure like, again,
14 Senator Stavisky had asked the chancellor
15 about it and kind of got a little tap-dance
16 about it or whatever the case is. But I
17 think that for us -- my mom attended
18 Medgar Evers College in 1993. She had class
19 in those portables. Students are still
20 taking classes in those portables, those same
21 ones that my mom attended. Right? And then
22 she went to New Paltz afterwards. Right?
23 So I think that like seeing that, you
24 know, like it's just, to me -- again, it's
428
1 a -- it's an equity issue. If we're going to
2 be equitable across the board, you know, I
3 think that this is something that we need to
4 take a real serious look at, which students
5 aren't getting their end of the deal.
6 SENATOR STAVISKY: And your mother, I
7 can assure you, is very proud of you. I say
8 that as a mother.
9 MR. HUNTER: I'm proud to be her son.
10 SENATOR STAVISKY: Okay, thank you.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
12 Assembly?
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Assemblymember
14 Epstein, to be followed by Assemblymember
15 Smith.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: I also want to
17 really thank you for everything you're doing.
18 And obviously we all need to work harder to
19 ensure that public education is available for
20 people. And to see, you know, doubling of
21 tuition over a 15-year or 20-year period is
22 outrageous.
23 And so I guess one is -- I just want
24 to be clear, your position is no tuition
429
1 increase or no tuition increase without a TAP
2 increase? Which is your general position?
3 MR. HUNTER: Free CUNY. Okay, I think
4 that --
5 (Laughter.)
6 MR. HUNTER: -- what we need to do is
7 --
8 MS. PIQUANT: No, free CUNY. Free
9 CUNY. It's coming soon.
10 (Laughter.)
11 MR. HUNTER: I think that what we
12 should definitely take a look at is
13 freezing -- I think that -- actually it was
14 Thomas DiNapoli I think said it yesterday at
15 NYSUT, he said it shouldn't be education or
16 healthcare, it should be both.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Right.
18 MR. HUNTER: Right? And I think the
19 same thing applies to tuition increases and
20 TAP. It shouldn't be like a tuition increase
21 or TAP reform, it should be both. We should
22 try to freeze tuition and do that.
23 And I think another thing to
24 highlight, just to echo Senator Stavisky's
430
1 standpoint, if we decide that, okay, let's
2 get some money for a TAP gap, let's fill the
3 TAP gap together -- great. Tuition -- if
4 that hike gets approved by the board, we're
5 right back where we started. You know?
6 Let's say you fill that gap but it's not
7 enough to cover the TAP gap for the following
8 year. Basically what we're doing is just
9 playing the game of catch-up, and we'll just
10 always have a deficit.
11 So if you don't put enough to offset
12 the upcoming year tuition increases, or --
13 which I suggest -- put 36 million up front
14 and freeze tuition and then start trying to
15 fund the TAP gap separately, you know, I
16 think that makes more sense. You don't run a
17 business by just saying like, okay, well, I'm
18 not going to take in like, you know, any
19 revenue and somehow save crumbling
20 infrastructure. You want to be able to get
21 the state to put in that money in
22 substitute of the backs of the students that
23 made --
24 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Timothy, I'm
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1 almost out of time, so I don't know if
2 someone else wants to -- we all have time
3 limitations. I don't know if anyone else
4 wants to add to it.
5 And I know we wanted to -- so all
6 fees, all additional fees. You know, mental
7 health fees, book, the additional fees -- we
8 feel like we should be eliminating those,
9 that people should be able to go to school
10 and tuition through TAP should cover all
11 expenses. Is that everyone's position --
12 MR. HUNTER: Yes.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: -- that we
14 should have no additional fees?
15 MS. PIQUANT: And ultimately moving
16 towards a strategic planning of how we can go
17 back to free and fully funded CUNY.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Great. And then
19 you can start -- support my legislation to
20 allow tuition-free education.
21 And so just one last thing, because I
22 know we talked a lot about mental health
23 issues and a lot of students who are
24 struggling with mental health. Can you on
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1 the ground just tell us what you're hearing
2 from students around lack of access to mental
3 health providers and what impact that might
4 be having on students?
5 MS. AGU: Well, students whom I've
6 told about this mental health increase in the
7 tuition, they think that it's very
8 unnecessary because even -- even -- it has
9 already been implemented, there is already an
10 increase in the tuition. The Board of
11 Trustees have approved it.
12 But the thing is that they keep
13 increasing the fees, but the resources are
14 still going to be stagnant, and we all know
15 that. There will be more understaffed, you
16 know, mental health counsel offices, there
17 will be more long waiting hours to see a
18 counselor. So I feel like nothing will
19 actually change, even with this increase.
20 That is why they deem it to be very
21 unnecessary, every student that I've talked
22 to. No one has supported this fee as far as
23 I've mentioned it.
24 MR. HUNTER: And lastly, it doesn't
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1 come out of TAP. You know, it would have to
2 come out of your Pell grants or any other
3 grants that you get. So if you thought you
4 were going to use your money to get books,
5 it's going towards something that we still
6 have yet to see.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And moving to
8 Assemblymember Smith.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Thank you.
10 So my question is quick. If you had
11 an additional three minutes to speak to us,
12 what would you say, in closing?
13 (Laughter.)
14 MS. AGU: Okay, so I took this
15 position as vice chair to represent
16 international students, like I said, and
17 there is one thing that resonated to me was
18 international students in CUNY -- we all
19 fight for all students in CUNY and SUNY, but
20 I feel like sometimes we, you know, forget
21 the other small percentage of students which
22 are international students, and so we don't
23 really consider them when we're trying to
24 like talk about budgets and, you know, the
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1 rest of it that benefits other students.
2 So that is why I had to show up today,
3 to, you know, appeal to every one of you that
4 whenever you're making decisions for CUNY or
5 SUNY, please include international students
6 in your plan, because we are still students
7 in the City University of New York.
8 MS. PIQUANT: I have one minute, but I
9 would like to get a little bit personal.
10 Without CUNY I wouldn't be where I am today.
11 To serve as the vice chair of legislative
12 affairs and to represent 500,000 students is
13 really an honor, especially as a young woman
14 of color. My parents are immigrants. My
15 father was an adjunct at Brooklyn College.
16 Without CUNY I would not be here today, and I
17 hold education dearly to my heart.
18 And I would like you to think about
19 all the CUNY students, the CUNY students who
20 are at Medgar, you know, in trailers taking
21 classes, the students who are sleeping on
22 campuses, the students who are food insecure.
23 Just think long and hard when things come
24 across your desk. That's all I have to say.
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1 And you'll be seeing us much more very soon.
2 MR. HUNTER: Assemblymember Smith, I
3 appreciate you giving us the extra time to
4 just even like voice some of our concerns.
5 I think one of the easy wins this
6 year, definitely the DREAM Act, like whatever
7 that is in terms of helping those students to
8 get that like additional funding. I have
9 friends that are undocumented that are
10 student leaders that I don't -- I don't --
11 like I don't know how they're going to be
12 able to get through the semester without some
13 sort of additional help.
14 And I think that, you know, as we look
15 at, again, those trailers, looking at our
16 students, the morale is really low. So it's
17 really hard to get students like organized.
18 And if we can come away with some sort of
19 win, this is the second year on like a real
20 trailblazing front for the State Legislature.
21 And I think that the last thing I
22 would say is that ASAP -- well, two last
23 things. The ASAP program that got cut,
24 please don't let -- don't put politics over
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1 people. Please let's advocate for ASAP to
2 get back in the budget before the end of the
3 budget session.
4 And lastly, this TAP gap thing, it's
5 affecting more people than we know. And I
6 think it's important that we take a real,
7 real close look at it and put the pressure on
8 HESC, put the pressure on the chancellor --
9 he's on both sides -- and figure out what we
10 can do to help the students in New York
11 State. Because pretty much everyone here has
12 benefited from public higher education.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you all
14 very much for being with us today --
15 MR. HUNTER: Thank you.
16 MS. AGU: Thank you.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: -- and for
18 missing your classes. But they'll give you
19 credit for this.
20 MS. PIQUANT: Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Or we'll give
22 you credit.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We'll give you
24 credit.
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1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So next we have
2 the State University of New York Student
3 Assembly: Austin Ostro, trustee, president
4 of the SUNY Student Assembly; and Bryce Mac,
5 Student Assembly treasurer. And two other
6 people. Is one of you Brad Hershenson?
7 MR. HERSHENSON: Yes.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Takeena --
9 well, just introduce the other people. I
10 believe Austin and Bryce are the two who will
11 be --
12 MR. OSTRO: Absolutely.
13 So thank you so much for inviting us
14 to be a part of this important day. My name
15 is Austin Ostro. I am a graduate student at
16 the University at Albany and the president of
17 the SUNY Student Assembly, which represents
18 the 1.4 million full- and part-time students
19 across 64 SUNY campuses.
20 I'm joined on my left by Bryce Mac,
21 who's our Student Assembly treasurer and a
22 student at SUNY New Paltz; to my right by
23 Takeena Strachan, who is the student
24 government president at SUNY Oswego; and
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1 further to my right, Brad Hershenson, who is
2 our director of legislative affairs.
3 So we, as the SUNY Student Assembly,
4 are charged with representing all of those
5 voices. And given the charged political
6 environment we all exist in, those voices
7 have been louder than ever.
8 Higher education has been thrust into
9 the national policy spotlight like never
10 before. Every major Democratic candidate for
11 president has some sort of plan to offer at
12 least partial free tuition for public higher
13 education. And I think students are tapping
14 into that national enthusiasm for investment
15 in higher ed in ways that we've never seen
16 before, and that's juicing our advocacy like
17 never before.
18 But what I think is lost in that
19 national conversation about higher ed,
20 particularly about public higher ed, is that
21 it's not just about affordability. An
22 affordable degree is great, but a degree is
23 only worth as much as the education that
24 degree provides you and the skills you leave
439
1 with that -- that you gain over the course of
2 your education. And in order to get a
3 high-quality education, in order to make that
4 degree mean and be worth something, New York
5 State needs to invest in the academic success
6 of students.
7 And the Student Assembly has
8 identified a number of key funding priorities
9 for this budget cycle where we believe the
10 state's investment could help enhance the
11 student experience, enhance the academic
12 success of students, and continue to build on
13 the promise of a SUNY education for all.
14 And my colleagues will hit on some of
15 those key priorities. Bryce?
16 MR. MAC: Before I begin, I would like
17 to thank the entire panel for letting me come
18 here today and speak.
19 Like Austin said, my name is Bryce
20 Mac. I'm a student at SUNY New Paltz with
21 the hopes of one day running for public
22 office. So I hope to be where you are today.
23 But one of our key advocacy points is
24 the reform of the community college funding
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1 model. Community colleges in New York State
2 are funded one part by the state, one part by
3 the county, and one part by the students.
4 However, for the past several years, students
5 have had to hold the burden of increases in
6 tuition and fees when it's the state's
7 investment that is needed.
8 This is something that needs to be
9 addressed, and soon. If it isn't, students,
10 faculty and staff will suffer tremendously.
11 Community colleges are a hidden gem,
12 not only in this state but across the
13 country. They are the foundation for many
14 students, including myself. However, if the
15 state doesn't increase their investment,
16 these schools both in SUNY and CUNY won't be
17 able to uphold the messages they were founded
18 on.
19 This past summer, my family and I had
20 to go through one of the hardest situations
21 in New York State -- homelessness. My family
22 and I were homeless. And during those rough
23 months, we had to choose between living on
24 the streets or living in a hotel. My
441
1 grandmother is a stroke victim, and I am a
2 Type I diabetic, so of course we had to
3 choose the hotel. But everybody knows hotels
4 aren't cheap, so we exhausted all of our
5 money.
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Bryce, I'm
7 sorry --
8 MR. MAC: Yes.
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: -- can we just
10 stop the clock, and we'll put more time.
11 Can someone up there shut the door?
12 Because we're hearing the voices from the
13 hall come down and it's echoing, and we'd
14 like people to hear what you have to say.
15 MR. MAC: Thank you.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Why don't you
17 put the clock at three minutes, give you a
18 little extra time since we were having
19 difficulty hearing. But we need you all to
20 follow the time. Thank you.
21 MR. MAC: Thank you so much.
22 As you know, hotels aren't cheap, so
23 my family exhausted all of our money. I had
24 to make a Go Fund Me page to make sure we
442
1 stayed in that hotel and we wouldn't end up
2 on the streets.
3 I remember walking up to my mother and
4 asking her "Should I drop out of school and
5 work full-time?" to help her pay for that
6 hotel. She said "Absolutely not." She said
7 I should continue to go to school and obtain
8 my education.
9 During these times, because we had no
10 money, we had to rely on my former school's
11 food pantry. If it wasn't for that food
12 pantry, I wouldn't be sitting here today.
13 Also, since we couldn't afford food, I
14 couldn't afford any textbooks for the past
15 fall semester. But I am blessed to say that
16 I finished all those fall courses with
17 straight As.
18 However, not every student can do
19 that. I am one of the lucky ones. I have a
20 great support system; I survived. But the
21 reality is not every student can do that and,
22 sadly, I am not the only student who has been
23 homeless. There will be other students who
24 has, is, or will be homeless in the future.
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1 If you do not properly fund higher
2 education, schools both in SUNY and CUNY
3 won't be able to uphold the messages they
4 were founded on. If you do not properly fund
5 higher education, the youth of tomorrow will
6 be at a standstill. If you do not properly
7 fund higher education, that same food pantry
8 that saved my life won't be able to save
9 another. If you do not properly fund higher
10 education, dreams will die.
11 Please make sure higher education is
12 properly funded this legislative session.
13 MS. STRACHAN: Good afternoon. My
14 name is Takeena Strachan, and I represent the
15 thousands of students enrolled at SUNY
16 Oswego, as the Student Association president.
17 Today I will highlight a few of the
18 experiences of myself and my colleagues at
19 SUNY Oswego and speak upon the importance of
20 investing in higher education.
21 My institution successfully
22 administers a variety of student support
23 services and should be seen as a role model
24 for all institutions of higher education in
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1 the state. The mental health services
2 available to students at SUNY Oswego are
3 imperative to students' success. As a
4 student myself, I know the Counseling Center
5 does the best it can with the resources
6 available and the limited staff employed.
7 After hearing feedback of other
8 students and witnessing the increase in
9 mental health rates of young adults on my
10 campus and also nationwide, with the help of
11 the staff of our Counseling Center we are
12 working to provide more accommodating
13 resources to all students. We anticipate
14 accomplishing more as the semester continues.
15 Just like other student campuses, we
16 are determined to strengthen the mental
17 health resources on our campus by pushing
18 towards telehealth counseling alternatives,
19 diversifying our counseling team, and
20 providing more opportunities for students to
21 educate themselves on mental health issues
22 that they might encounter either personally
23 or by association with a peer.
24 Additionally, all students have the
445
1 ability to reap the benefits of SHOP, or
2 Students Helping Oswego Peers. SHOP is our
3 student- and community-supported clothing and
4 food pantry on campus. Although this
5 resource is a positive for all students, it
6 is not accommodating for everyone. To find
7 that our students on my campus were
8 struggling to access food and clothing
9 encouraged myself and my colleagues, through
10 constructive discussions, to identify how we
11 would increase support to students in need.
12 Currently the Oswego Student
13 Association is looking to provide an
14 extension on our pantry's operating hours
15 and, in collaboration with the administration
16 of Oswego, to advocate for an increase in
17 public donations to increase our inventory.
18 Our campus has encouraged our school's
19 alumni association to give back and to help
20 end our campus-wide issues, but their
21 donations are not measuring up to the number
22 of students deciding to eat their first two
23 weeks of school or to purchase their books
24 for class.
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1 There is more work to be done now, as
2 this is not just an issue on the campus of
3 SUNY Oswego but an opportunity to invest in
4 all institutions of higher education within
5 the State of New York.
6 Thank you.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
8 Brad, would you like a minute to say
9 something?
10 MR. HERSHENSON: Sure, thank you.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We'll do a
12 minute, sort of a family courtesy.
13 MR. HERSHENSON: Good afternoon. My
14 name is Brad Hershenson. I am a student at
15 the University at Albany and the legislative
16 director for the Student Assembly.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Move that
18 closer, or slide into it.
19 MR. HERSHENSON: I'd like to touch
20 upon the importance of capital investments,
21 specifically the element of sustainability.
22 At SUNY we need infrastructure
23 investment. One, because much of SUNY was
24 built decades ago, we need to make the
447
1 appropriate upgrades. A lot of SUNY is
2 deteriorating at the same rate, and we need
3 investment to make the upgrades to bring SUNY
4 to where it can be.
5 And two, we need investment in our
6 communities. We need buildings that properly
7 use resources, electricity efficiently, water
8 efficiently, to invest in geothermal heating,
9 green roofs, solar and wind where
10 appropriate. And what we can do with that
11 when we're demonstrating that on our
12 campuses, on our infrastructure, is we can
13 educate students and we can use the faculty,
14 students and staff on our campus to build the
15 new generation workforce that is going to
16 prioritize sustainable development.
17 I also want to mention that elements
18 of resiliency are demonstrated in our
19 communities when we do that. A lot of our
20 campuses have stormwater management plans
21 that are in collaboration with the different
22 regions across New York, and 40 percent of
23 public infrastructure in New York is
24 accounted for by SUNY. That's almost half of
448
1 the public infrastructure across the state,
2 is just the State University of New York
3 alone.
4 And when demonstrating those elements
5 of resiliency, whether it's the natural
6 landscape or the built environment or the
7 public health benefits, we're talking about
8 investment into our system. And as President
9 and Trustee Ostro has said time and time
10 again, investment in SUNY is investment in
11 New York.
12 And we bring elements of resiliency to
13 our community. SUNY pays that back through
14 the property taxes, through our income taxes,
15 through the houses that our students, faculty
16 and staff buy. Students and faculty and
17 staff from SUNY are likely to live in
18 New York, to stay in New York for decades,
19 and we pay that back, we pay that investment
20 back to New York.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you very
23 much, all of you, for being here. It's good
24 to see that we have a future generation that
449
1 will be taking our place eventually.
2 Thank you. Let me see if there are
3 any questions. Assemblywoman Glick?
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: It's not so much
5 a question except to thank you. And, you
6 know, we stay in constant contact about the
7 issues.
8 And, you know, I want to congratulate
9 you. There was never a term that I got
10 straight As, so to do that with all of the
11 challenges and barriers, I just want to take
12 the hat that I don't have on off to you.
13 And to say that, you know, the student
14 government from SUNY has been an incredibly
15 vibrant resource for us, and we hope we can
16 continue to do that and figure out how we can
17 reach out, within the community and beyond,
18 for alumni to step up and say -- as you say,
19 yes, you stay here, you pay taxes. We want
20 the Governor to know that. We need to get
21 people to communicate that directly -- not
22 through the students, but through folks
23 writing their own note, letter, email, phone
24 call, whatever.
450
1 Thanks.
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
3 Alicia? Alicia Hyndman.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Really quick,
5 I just wanted to say I'm a SUNY New Paltz
6 grad. And I never planned to run for office,
7 and you are planning to run for office, so
8 let's keep in touch.
9 (Laughter.)
10 MR. MAC: Definitely. Most
11 definitely.
12 And thank you, Chair Glick.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: I really --
14 the alumni association, a lot of us will be
15 up there in May. I really hope we could
16 connect and be helpful to you.
17 MR. MAC: I will love that. Thank
18 you.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Great. Thank
21 you all for --
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you all.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: -- for being
24 here. Good luck in your studies.
451
1 Next we have the Commission on
2 Independent Colleges and Universities, Mary
3 Beth Labate, president.
4 MS. LABATE: Good afternoon, everyone.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Good afternoon.
6 MS. LABATE: I thought we'd have the
7 results of the Iowa caucus by now, but we
8 don't, so I'm sorry, guys.
9 (Laughter.)
10 MS. LABATE: Good afternoon,
11 Chairpersons Krueger and Weinstein and
12 Higher Ed Chairpersons Glick and Stavisky.
13 Thank you for your leadership, your fortitude
14 during these hearings, and the opportunity
15 for me to share my thoughts with you and the
16 committee today.
17 I'm Mary Beth Labate, president of the
18 Commission on Independent Colleges and
19 Universities, representing more than a
20 hundred private, not-for-profit colleges and
21 universities and nearly 500,000 students
22 across the state.
23 New York State is home to the largest
24 independent sector of higher ed in the
452
1 nation, educating 40 percent of the state's
2 1.2 million students, including nearly
3 300,000 New Yorkers, and playing a vital role
4 in our state's diverse higher education
5 ecosystem.
6 Few other states rely so heavily on
7 its private, not-for-profit colleges to
8 confer degrees and fulfill dreams, yet
9 New York ranks 17th in the nation in its
10 per-capita, needs-based support for students
11 at private, not-for-profit colleges.
12 New York's independent sector is also
13 an integral part of the statewide economy,
14 responsible for more than 415,000 jobs across
15 the state and nearly $90 billion in economic
16 impact. For centuries we have embraced the
17 call to educate students of every background
18 while bringing jobs, talent and energy to
19 communities across the state from Long Island
20 to Buffalo. Those of you with campuses in or
21 near your districts know that better than
22 anyone.
23 Our students represent -- let me tell
24 you a little about our students. Our
453
1 students represent the diversity of our
2 state. Almost 50 percent of all
3 African-American and Latinx students who
4 receive a bachelor's or graduate degree earn
5 them at a not-for-profit college. Our
6 students represent every income level.
7 Two-thirds of our New York students are from
8 families that earn less than $125,000
9 annually. Our students have higher
10 graduation rates and lower loan-default rates
11 than any other higher education sector in the
12 state.
13 Eighty-five percent of our students
14 benefit from financial aid directly from our
15 schools, bringing the average net price to
16 attend one of our schools down to $26,888.
17 Our students are making an investment in
18 themselves and their future, and our colleges
19 are with them every step of the way,
20 providing $6 billion in financial aid from
21 our own resources.
22 This year, as our state faces a
23 looming multi-billion-dollar deficit, it is
24 more important than ever that we target our
454
1 resources towards students with the greatest
2 need. For this to happen, New York must
3 increase support for the state's low- and
4 moderate-income college students and restore
5 funding for programs that allow
6 not-for-profit colleges to remain a vital
7 part of their communities and the higher
8 education landscape.
9 Our most important ask is for the
10 long-overdue expansion of the state's Tuition
11 Assistance Program, TAP, which will benefit
12 New York's neediest students regardless of
13 which college in New York they choose to
14 attend, and will help to close the TAP gap at
15 CUNY and SUNY. For nearly 50 years, TAP has
16 helped students from New York's lowest-income
17 families realize their college dream. Today
18 the program supports roughly 320,000
19 recipients, including 64,000 students for
20 whom a not-for-profit college is their
21 choice.
22 Unfortunately, in recent years TAP has
23 been helping fewer and fewer students, in
24 part because the income eligibility has not
455
1 been adjusted in 20 years, and the size of
2 the award has been adjusted only once in
3 those same 20 years. Today New York spends
4 9 percent less -- $92 million less -- on TAP
5 than it did in 2014-2015, and serves 49,000
6 fewer students.
7 Unless action is taken to expand TAP,
8 this alarming decline is projected to
9 continue. In my testimony you'll see an
10 appendix that highlights this startling
11 trend.
12 While the proposed budget proposes to
13 expand the Excelsior Scholarship for
14 households who earn more than twice the
15 median income in New York, and three times
16 the median income of African-American and
17 Latinx households, I urge you instead to
18 focus on TAP, an equity-based solution to
19 college affordability that provides the most
20 support to families with lowest incomes and
21 the widest attainment gaps, and helps
22 students regardless of what college, public
23 or private, they attend.
24 Our colleges have almost doubled the
456
1 amount of financial aid we provide over the
2 past 10 years. Now, New York State, we are
3 asking you to do your part by increasing TAP
4 over a three-year phase-in period as follows:
5 Increase the minimum award to $1,000 from
6 $500, the maximum award to $6,000 from
7 $5,165, and the income eligibility ceiling to
8 $110,000 from $80,000. These actions will
9 help the neediest students at SUNY, CUNY and
10 not-for-profit institutions.
11 In addition to TAP, Opportunity
12 Programs like HEOP can open the door to
13 higher education for many of the state's
14 neediest students. We're grateful that the
15 Governor did not cut the programs, and we ask
16 them to be expanded.
17 Finally, I ask that you ensure that
18 our state's diverse higher education
19 ecosystem continues to thrive. This can be
20 done by supporting a small increase in the
21 Bundy Aid, a $35 million program and the only
22 source of operating aid for not-for-profit
23 colleges.
24 We're also requesting that the
457
1 $30 million be restored for the Higher
2 Education Capital Assistance Matching Grant
3 Program, or HECap. Our schools provide a
4 three-to-one match to HECap and pay
5 prevailing wage on all work funded from the
6 grant.
7 The Governor has proposed a historic
8 $175 billion state infrastructure plan,
9 including $9 billion for SUNY and CUNY
10 infrastructure over the next six years, and
11 that is fantastic. But in this context,
12 $30 million to support a sector that educates
13 40 percent of all students is a modest but
14 important investment.
15 In closing, I call on you to renew our
16 state's commitment to the higher education
17 landscape in New York that has for
18 generations been a hallmark of our greatness.
19 I look forward to working with you and your
20 legislative colleagues to ensure that low-
21 and moderate-income students are not
22 overlooked and that our campuses can remain
23 vibrant members of their communities.
24 Thanks, and I welcome any questions.
458
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
3 Smith.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Thank you.
5 Can you expand a little bit on the
6 Enhanced Tuition Awards? Do you know offhand
7 how many colleges are participating or what
8 the --
9 MS. LABATE: There are a total of 38
10 colleges participating; 30 are not-for-profit
11 colleges. It's been a little tough to get
12 data, but I believe there are about 2,000
13 recipients of the award and it's been about
14 an average award of something a little shy of
15 $2,000 per recipient.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Okay. And then in
17 terms of the HECap, what are some of the
18 projects that right now the proposed
19 $30 million cut -- obviously that would
20 really make it a little bit harder to do some
21 of these capital improvements. But can you
22 expand on some of the things that we're
23 looking to do this coming year?
24 MS. LABATE: Sure. It's a competitive
459
1 process, so it really will be up to the
2 colleges to put forward the capital projects
3 that they want to move with.
4 I can tell you in the past we've
5 built -- we've helped to build buildings,
6 HECap has helped to build buildings that have
7 a focus on sustainability. Sometimes it's
8 helping to equip those buildings with the
9 latest technology that is needed to, let's
10 say, serve in the nursing profession. So
11 it's all over the board.
12 I know on Long Island there have been
13 several schools that have benefited from it,
14 and I'd be glad to get you a list of all the
15 Long Island schools that have been able to
16 leverage HECap.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Thank you so much.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Toby
20 Stavisky.
21 SENATOR STAVISKY: Yeah, real quick.
22 I know the colleges are just starting
23 the application process, I assume for the
24 2019 money, for the HECap money.
460
1 MS. LABATE: That's correct.
2 SENATOR STAVISKY: So I assume all of
3 it -- none of it has been really expended.
4 MS. LABATE: Correct.
5 SENATOR STAVISKY: How would you
6 improve Enhanced TAP? In a minute.
7 MS. LABATE: I think there are a few
8 things. I think -- first and foremost, we --
9 our preference is the TAP program.
10 SENATOR STAVISKY: I know that.
11 MS. LABATE: We think it's more
12 progressive, it focuses on all students.
13 On the Enhanced Tuition Awards
14 Program, I think there are a few issues that
15 we take -- have some concern with. One is
16 it's not really the equivalent of Excelsior.
17 The maximum award that a student can receive
18 from the state is $3,000. The maximum award
19 that a student under Excelsior can receive is
20 the full cost of SUNY tuition and CUNY
21 tuition. We know that's infrequently the
22 case, but the fact is the award levels are
23 significantly different. So that would be
24 one big change.
461
1 I think the other thing that gives us
2 pause is this requirement that you freeze
3 tuition. Because what that tells our schools
4 is for the relatively few students who can
5 get an Enhanced Tuition Award and who have
6 their tuition frozen, someone needs to make
7 that up somewhere, and that unfortunately is
8 the majority of students who are not
9 receiving an Enhanced TAP award. And I think
10 that is really the same in the public
11 institutions as well.
12 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Jim
14 Seward.
15 SENATOR SEWARD: Well, Mary Beth, it's
16 good to see you.
17 MS. LABATE: Nice to see you, Senator.
18 SENATOR SEWARD: You've already shared
19 with us the number of campuses that are
20 participating in the Enhanced Tuition Awards.
21 Can you share with us how many campuses that
22 are currently participating in that program
23 that actually may be setting limits on the
24 number of students that will receive an award
462
1 due to having to provide that up to $3,000
2 match?
3 MS. LABATE: That's a great -- I don't
4 have that exact number. I can get that for
5 you.
6 Several of them, though, because they
7 do not -- I think they're concerned about the
8 equity of having some students guaranteed
9 their tuition frozen and others not. And
10 often you might have a higher-income student
11 who is guaranteed their tuition is frozen and
12 a lower-income student who cannot benefit
13 from ETA who does not.
14 So I'll get you that information.
15 SENATOR SEWARD: That would be
16 helpful.
17 And is the match the issue here?
18 MS. LABATE: The match is not so --
19 the match is not the issue. Our schools --
20 especially when the award is up to $3,000,
21 our schools are very generous in the amount
22 of financial aid they provide. So our
23 schools have always put a lot of skin in the
24 game. So the match is not the issue so much.
463
1 SENATOR SEWARD: Just for the record,
2 I appreciated your comments in terms of
3 increases in enhancement of the Tuition
4 Assistance Program, the TAP award. You know,
5 my conference has been big supporters of that
6 effort over the years and certainly share
7 your goals there this year.
8 One final question, and that is on
9 Bundy Aid. That has been kind of frozen for
10 many, many years. Are you seeking an
11 increase in Bundy Aid this year?
12 MS. LABATE: We are. We're seeking a
13 small increase --
14 SENATOR SEWARD: Could you give us a
15 number for that?
16 MS. LABATE: We're seeking an increase
17 of 3 percent. What we looked at was private
18 K-12 in New York State receives about
19 $200 million from the state every year, and
20 every year the amount of operating support to
21 private K-12 is increased equivalent with
22 school aid increase. So this year school aid
23 is increased by 3 percent, private K-12 is
24 increased by 3 percent, we're suggesting
464
1 Bundy Aid be increased by 3 percent. It
2 would amount to about $1.3 million.
3 The statute itself on Bundy Aid --
4 which is supposed to award money based on the
5 number of degrees, so it's a
6 degree-completion incentive -- if the statute
7 were allowed to prevail, funding for
8 Bundy Aid would be about $160 million.
9 SENATOR SEWARD: Great. Well, just in
10 conclusion, not a question but a comment, we
11 spent a lot of time today talking about SUNY
12 and CUNY, and those are important, important
13 issues. But I'm very pleased to have you
14 come forward because no question that the
15 independent sector in higher education serves
16 so many students in New York State, and very
17 often from lower-income levels as well.
18 MS. LABATE: Absolutely.
19 SENATOR SEWARD: And that's making a
20 tremendous contribution not only
21 educationally but economically, and we thank
22 you.
23 MS. LABATE: Thank you.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Thank
465
1 you for being here.
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
3 MS. LABATE: Thank you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Next we have
5 Association of Proprietary Colleges: Donna
6 Stelling-Gurnett, president, Christopher
7 Barto, vice president.
8 And they'll be followed by On Point
9 for College, to be followed by College &
10 Community Fellowship.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And while they
12 settle in, with 62 percent reporting, Iowa
13 seems to be in the following order: Pete,
14 Bernie, Elizabeth, Joe. More to come.
15 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: All right.
16 Late-breaking news, that's great. All right.
17 So Senator Stavisky, Senator Krueger,
18 members of the Legislature, thank you for
19 this opportunity to present this testimony on
20 behalf of the Association of Proprietary
21 Colleges.
22 My name is Donna Stelling-Gurnett.
23 I'm the president of the association. And
24 I'm here today with Christopher Barto of
466
1 LIM College.
2 Christopher and I have had the
3 opportunity to participate in this hearing in
4 the past, and I know you've heard us talk
5 about APC's 12 family-owned member colleges
6 that are -- have very strong student outcomes
7 and are really committed to educational
8 excellence, access and affordability.
9 Before I start our testimony today,
10 though, I'd like to start by just saying
11 thank you sincerely for your support and
12 leadership last year as you helped us push
13 back against the Governor's proposed
14 For-Profit College Accountability Act. We
15 feel his proposal was misguided and
16 essentially would have closed an entire
17 sector of higher education here in New York.
18 As we moved through the budget process
19 last year, though, APC certainly learned a
20 few lessons. We realized that there seems to
21 be a lack of understanding of the current
22 regulations that are already in existence,
23 perhaps a lack of understanding about what
24 data is already available, and probably most
467
1 importantly, what does it mean to truly be a
2 family-owned institution, and how are they
3 different than the large publicly traded
4 for-profit colleges that you may hear about
5 at the federal level.
6 So as we were heading into this
7 legislative session, we took a look at what
8 we have available on our website. We have a
9 very robust facts and figures page, but we
10 also added a new section to our website where
11 you can now see individual member profiles
12 for each and every APC member. So you can
13 click on that link and you can find out
14 information about what family owns that
15 institution, what year were they founded, who
16 are they accredited by. We provide a link to
17 their college scorecard page so you can get
18 an understanding of their outcomes. And we
19 also provide a student demographic section so
20 you can see what types of students are
21 attending that institution. And there's also
22 a financial section so you can see what that
23 college's 90/10 ratio is, what their fiscal
24 composite score is, what their cohort default
468
1 rate is.
2 And our hope is that having all of
3 this information will help foster a more
4 constructive dialogue as we move through this
5 legislative session.
6 So before I turn it over to
7 Christopher to talk about some of our
8 recommendations, I would just ask that you
9 use the association as a resource as we go
10 through this session.
11 So Christopher?
12 MR. BARTO: Thank you, Donna. Members
13 of the Legislature, thank you for the
14 opportunity to join my colleague in
15 testifying today.
16 I'd like to speak about continued
17 support for expanding TAP. TAP has served as
18 the cornerstone of New York State's financial
19 aid program, providing financial support to
20 help ensure that thousands of students
21 complete their degrees in a timely manner
22 every year.
23 APC member colleges share the state's
24 commitment to keeping college affordable. In
469
1 2018, the average tuition at APC member
2 colleges increased less than 1 percent over
3 the previous year, and in 2017 APC member
4 colleges provided over 95 million in
5 institutional grants and scholarships, more
6 than double the amount of TAP funds received
7 by all New York State proprietary colleges.
8 Together, institutional support and
9 TAP funding provides significant
10 life-changing opportunities for students
11 attending APC member colleges. Further, APC
12 member colleges focus on ensuring that
13 students progress towards their degrees while
14 graduating on time, which helps to keep their
15 student loan debt as low as possible.
16 APC respectfully requests your
17 consideration for the following enhancements
18 to the TAP program.
19 Increase funding, actually, for one of
20 the ancillary programs, the Enhanced Tuition
21 Award program. The ETA program is the
22 private institutional counterpart, as we
23 know, to Governor Cuomo's signature Excelsior
24 program. The Governor has proposed
470
1 increasing the maximum income eligibility
2 threshold to $150,000 for both programs.
3 While we appreciate the Governor's proposal
4 to support a greater range of students, we
5 also encourage lawmakers to increase the
6 overall funding for the ETA program.
7 We join with many of our other
8 colleagues who have testified today in
9 pushing for increased funding for the TAP
10 program. We feel that the TAP program is
11 currently constrained in fulfilling its
12 promise to students. We should be increasing
13 the number of students served under the
14 program, yet the Governor has proposed a
15 $60 million reduction in the program funding.
16 Increase the minimum TAP award to
17 $1,000, increase the maximum TAP award up to
18 $6,000. As has been noted today, the TAP
19 maximum has not appreciably increased in over
20 20 years, yet cost-of-living increases during
21 that time have gone up almost 50 percent.
22 We also would support increasing the
23 maximum net taxable income for TAP
24 eligibility to $110,000 and restoring maximum
471
1 TAP awards for two-year degree programs.
2 Investments in TAP are well
3 established and proven investments in the
4 future vitality of New York's workforce and
5 the economic development of local communities
6 around the state. Let's continue to ensure
7 the efficacy of the TAP program in supporting
8 New York's neediest students across all four
9 sectors of higher education.
10 Thank you.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
12 To Assemblymember Glick.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: I see that
14 you've chosen to highlight some of your
15 student veterans, and I'm just wondering, is
16 there -- what's the percentage of veterans
17 that attend the proprietary colleges?
18 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: It's actually
19 relatively small, honestly.
20 So we serve approximately 27,000
21 students in our 12 APC member colleges; less
22 than 700 of them are veterans that are using
23 GI benefits. So maybe 2 percent, I think.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Did you say
472
1 27,000 students?
2 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: Mm-hmm.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: And roughly
4 around 700 are --
5 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: Yes.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: The graduation
7 rate?
8 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: For those GI --
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: For -- on
10 average, your general graduation rate across
11 the 12 colleges.
12 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: A good
13 question, actually. Let me just take a quick
14 peek at our testimony.
15 On our last page of the testimony we
16 give -- our on-time associate degree
17 graduation rate is 29 percent.
18 MR. BARTO: And bachelor-degree
19 graduation rates are higher than that. I can
20 share that at LIM College our graduation rate
21 is 54 percent.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Thank you.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
473
1 Thank you for being here today. Thank you.
2 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Next we will
4 hear from On Point for College, Samuel Rowser
5 and Kevin Marken, then College & Community
6 Fellowship, followed by the Hispanic
7 Federation.
8 MR. ROWSER: Good evening. I'd just
9 like to thank Chairperson Stavisky on her way
10 out and Assemblyperson Weinstein and
11 Assemblyperson Glick for this opportunity,
12 the budget hearing on higher education, for
13 allowing us this opportunity to share.
14 My name is Samuel Rowser. I'm the
15 executive director for On Point for College,
16 and with me is our Utica director, Kevin
17 Marken. Not with us today are our partners
18 from New York City, Goddard Riverside Options
19 Program and New Settlement Apartments in the
20 Bronx.
21 I just want to thank you for this
22 opportunity to talk with you about investing
23 a million dollars in New York's future
24 workforce. Since On Point for College was
474
1 founded in 1999, we've helped more than
2 2700 students actually graduate from college.
3 Over the course of their working lifetime,
4 they'll earn over a billion dollars, which
5 will be spent in their communities.
6 About a year ago we did an assessment
7 in Utica of the number of individuals that
8 graduated that year, how many came back to
9 the community, and it was 93 percent of those
10 students came back to the community that they
11 graduated from.
12 Right now we're serving in Onondaga,
13 Madison, Cayuga, Cortland, Oswego, Oneida and
14 Herkimer Counties, and also with our partners
15 in Manhattan and the Bronx.
16 On Point provides college access,
17 college success and career services to help
18 young adults ages 17 to 29 to apply to,
19 enroll in, and persist at college through
20 graduation, while building skills and
21 pre-professional experiences to help launch
22 their careers.
23 On Point is unique in the nation for
24 the holistic approach we take to helping
475
1 students. Earlier you heard many of the
2 students talk about a lot of the issues that
3 they were having on the campuses and they
4 have going through the process of education,
5 and there are just a couple of things I
6 really want to highlight.
7 On Point takes hundreds of students
8 each year to visit colleges all over
9 New York -- over 70 colleges throughout the
10 state. In New York State we use a corps of
11 dedicated volunteers or bus tickets to help
12 students get to and from campus. On Point
13 also partners with two dentists. Someone
14 asked the question earlier, do you have to
15 have healthcare? Most colleges require you
16 have healthcare, but not dental. So what
17 happens if you get a toothache and you're
18 low-income? We have dentists that we go pick
19 you up, bring you home, fix your teeth, take
20 you back to college. Lose your eyeglasses,
21 we get you an eyeglass exam and two pair of
22 glasses.
23 On Point even partners with local
24 colleges and we have housing at a private
476
1 college, Le Moyne College in Syracuse. For
2 15 years, any students that are
3 housing-challenged have the opportunity to
4 stay on campus the entire summer semester,
5 free of charge. And during the winter breaks
6 we have an organization that they own
7 apartments and they allow us to use their
8 apartments over the short breaks for students
9 to stay who are housing-challenged.
10 We also help students pay for
11 textbooks, summer courses, outstanding bills
12 that prevent them from re-enrolling, housing
13 deposits and fees, when financial aid is
14 unavailable or has run out.
15 We just want to say that an investment
16 in On Point is also an investment in
17 New York's higher education institutions.
18 Seventy percent or more of our 2400 students
19 that are enrolled now, we're serving this
20 semester, attend public colleges across
21 New York State. That's about 23 million --
22 over $23 million in tuition and fees and room
23 and board at the community college, CUNY,
24 SUNY system as well as some of the private
477
1 schools.
2 We have a great deal of experience in
3 helping students navigate the system. On
4 Point's advisers, we actually go to the
5 campus and visit the students frequently
6 throughout the year. At the community
7 colleges we're there once a month. Our local
8 colleges, we're there a couple of times a
9 week.
10 On Point students persist at a higher
11 rate -- 77 percent higher than the average at
12 the community colleges, which is 60 percent.
13 Our students bring TAP, Pell awards as well
14 as student loan dollars to the campuses, and
15 our generous donors help us to support these
16 students.
17 If it had not been for On Point, many
18 of our students would not be attending
19 college. So we believe that providing the
20 $1 million in state funding for On Point's
21 program will have an impact on thousands of
22 low-income first-generation students each
23 year, helping people consider going to
24 college who might otherwise not have thought
478
1 college was possible and providing wraparound
2 services to support students on every step of
3 their journey toward their degrees.
4 Investments in these young people will
5 immediately support colleges across the state
6 and will bring long-term fruit as our
7 graduates bring their degrees and skills to
8 the state's workforce.
9 I just want to thank the members of
10 the Higher Education Committee for this
11 wonderful opportunity to share this
12 information with you. And at the end of the
13 day, we ask everyone to keep it On Point.
14 Thank you.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
16 Thank you for your testimony today. Thank
17 you.
18 So next we have College & Community
19 Fellowship, followed by Hispanic Federation,
20 followed by Police Benevolent Association of
21 New York State, followed by SUNY student
22 Mac-Olivier Lalanne. So people, if I called
23 your organization, your name, you should make
24 your way to the -- you should make your way
479
1 down. Thank you.
2 MS. GILESTRA: Hello. Thank you for
3 the opportunity to speak today and provide
4 testimony.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK: Pull it close to
6 you. The acoustics are lousy.
7 MS. GILESTRA: Yes. My name is
8 Ivelisse Gilestra, and I am the community
9 organizer for College & Community Fellowship.
10 And we have been providing services
11 for 20 years for formerly incarcerated women,
12 direct services, and helping them achieve a
13 college degree. We also have noticed that in
14 the work that we do, we also approach many
15 barriers from a systemic level.
16 And I'm here to talk today about the
17 Turn on the TAP campaign that we are
18 launching, and we seek the passage of Bill
19 S790, championed by Montgomery, and A3975, by
20 Aubry, to restore the Tuition Assistance
21 Program, or TAP, for those incarcerated.
22 We have a broad collaboration of
23 partners in this work. And just to give you
24 a little history that I'm pretty sure that
480
1 you all know, TAP was operating successfully
2 in New York State until 1995, a year after
3 Pell Grants were banned at the federal level
4 as well.
5 So in the Executive Chamber Fiscal
6 Year 2021 Budget Briefing Book it states that
7 New York is leading the nation in expanding
8 access to a quality and affordable college
9 tuition. But this is false, because Tuition
10 Assistance Program are not in New York for
11 people incarcerated.
12 There are 19 states that do provide
13 state financial assistance, but New York is
14 not one of them. And this is people that
15 need it the most. This is a population that
16 is usually excluded from conversation of
17 education. And I want to talk a little bit
18 about predictors or factors that lead to
19 pathways to people to prison.
20 One of them is growing up in a
21 marginalized community, which is usually
22 characterized by low rates of education
23 attainment, criminalization of poverty. We
24 have youth that drop out of high school,
481
1 which makes them 47 percent more likely to
2 end up in prison. So we need to uplift these
3 communities that need it the most.
4 Access to higher education also
5 produces a multigenerational effect,
6 disrupting that intergenerational poverty.
7 We have parents that partake in
8 college-in-prison models and education
9 inside, there's a likelihood their kids will
10 be motivated to do the same, even if their
11 parent is incarcerated.
12 So education usually provides better
13 employment, autonomy, which reduces the
14 reliance on government assistance, and upward
15 mobility. So education provides a myriad of
16 benefits and has the potential, like I said
17 again, to uplift a community that has been
18 marginalized, excluded. So restoring TAP in
19 general is just smart fiscal policy. It is a
20 win-win.
21 In the Executive Budget for fiscal
22 year 2020 there was a proposed increase of
23 $154 million in higher ed. But for less than
24 10 percent of this, and even less than
482
1 2 percent of the total TAP, we can be
2 providing that to people incarcerated, people
3 behind bars that really, really will benefit
4 from this.
5 So since this is an entitlement
6 program, this will not take from
7 nontraditional students, which is something
8 that we -- it's a myth that we need to
9 debunk. This does not take from non --
10 non-incarcerated students.
11 So this is an issue of educational
12 equity. Since 1995, New York State has
13 removed access to this opportunity, an
14 opportunity that has proven not only as a
15 need, as a benefit to marginalized
16 communities -- I know personally the powerful
17 benefits of education as being
18 transformative. I am a formerly incarcerated
19 woman. While in prison, I used education as
20 a catalyst to that transformation.
21 And not only education gave me the
22 tools to navigate the many barriers that I
23 have encountered in transitioning back into
24 society, but it has equipped me -- it has
483
1 really -- it has really built me in order to
2 understand the factors that led me into
3 prison. So this has been transferred to my
4 family and to my community. People that
5 obtain an education are very much involved
6 with civic engagement, because you want to
7 give back that gift that was given to you.
8 So to me it is an urgent necessity.
9 It affects mostly the people that are
10 disproportionately represented in prison,
11 which is black and brown communities. So I
12 have seen, I have seen the effects of people
13 obtaining their education inside. And I wish
14 we could restore TAP as it was before 1995.
15 I think everybody goes into prison
16 with already some trauma, but nobody leaves
17 unaffected. So I think as a society we
18 benefit from people leaving out with an
19 education.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you for
21 being a strong advocate and example for the
22 cause that you are advocating.
23 MS. GILESTRA: Yes.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you for
484
1 being here. It's much appreciated.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 MS. GILESTRA: Thank you for the
5 opportunity.
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Next, the
7 Hispanic Federation, Diana Cruz, followed by
8 Police Benevolent Association of New York,
9 followed by Mac-Olivier Lalanne.
10 MS. CRUZ: Thank you, Chairwoman
11 Krueger, Chairwoman Weinstein and other
12 committee members for taking the time to
13 listen to the testimony drafted by Hispanic
14 Federation. I know it's been a long day, so
15 your presence and commitment is vital to the
16 support for us to move forward the policies
17 that we want to present.
18 The Hispanic Federation is a nonprofit
19 organization seeking to empower and advance
20 the Hispanic community's programs and
21 legislative advocacy. My name is Diana Cruz,
22 and as the director of education policy for
23 the Hispanic Federation, I am here to
24 advocate for Latinx students in New York
485
1 State struggling to attain a postsecondary
2 degree.
3 Currently New York State is failing to
4 graduate Latinx students that are college and
5 career ready. From 2007 to 2017, in New York
6 City, Latinx young adults ages 18 to 24 have
7 increased their college enrollment by 9
8 percent, from 29 percent to 38 percent. In
9 the same decade, the Latinx completion crisis
10 has risen from 13 percent to 23 percent,
11 demonstrating that the Latinx
12 non-completion rate is growing slightly
13 faster than the increase of college
14 enrollment.
15 In order to address this, the Hispanic
16 Federation strongly urges the Legislature to
17 include and prioritize the following budget
18 and legislative recommendations in their
19 one-house budgets.
20 Starting with the Senator Jose Peralta
21 New York State DREAM Act, the Hispanic
22 Federation asks the Legislature to secure the
23 same funding as last year of $27 million to
24 ensure undocumented students continue to have
486
1 access to higher education.
2 I know that we have heard from
3 Dr. Linares earlier today, and he mentioned
4 the number of students that have been
5 applying to the DREAM Act. But approximately
6 146,000 young people are eligible for state
7 financial aid through the DREAM Act. It is
8 our hope that as we develop more trust from
9 the community, this opportunity will make
10 students want to utilize this new path to
11 receive financial aid.
12 However, it is important to
13 acknowledge that unfortunately the
14 undocumented and mixed-status families are
15 still fearful and have misconceptions about
16 what the DREAM Act entails. Further, school
17 counselors and professionals are also
18 confused on how to best help their students.
19 HESC is using its resources to the best of
20 its ability and yet does not have the
21 capacity to create and implement a plan to
22 educate families and educators on the
23 New York State DREAM Act.
24 We strongly believe that HESC needs a
487
1 minimum of $1 million to properly put the law
2 into action and spearhead community outreach,
3 along with CBOs to launch a statewide
4 campaign to dispel misunderstandings about
5 the New York State DREAM Act.
6 Moreover, HESC alone cannot provide
7 enough outreach to communities and high
8 schools. SUNY and CUNY must participate in
9 increasing marketing and recruitment efforts
10 to assist new students in understanding the
11 DREAM Act. We ask that SUNY and CUNY receive
12 $500,000 to increase outreach and recruitment
13 efforts.
14 When the Excelsior Scholarship came
15 into effect, SUNY made clear efforts in
16 marketing to assist new students in
17 understanding the Excelsior Scholarship. It
18 even explored the use of Smart Track targeted
19 emails to assist scholarship recipients.
20 Further, SUNY distributed information about
21 the Excelsior Scholarship to more than 8,000
22 high school students at college fairs.
23 We insist that both institutions
24 provide intentional outreach to high school
488
1 and college students to guarantee the right
2 understanding to apply for the New York State
3 DREAM Act.
4 Additionally, as we have heard from a
5 lot of other advocates here today,
6 Opportunity Program funding has been proven
7 to increase retention and graduation rates,
8 especially for first-generation students.
9 Many of those students are low-income
10 students of color that need additional
11 academic and financial supports to graduate
12 college.
13 These programs change generational
14 wealth disparities and in some cases set
15 students up to be the first ones in their
16 families to attain a college degree. We urge
17 the legislation to allocate the necessary
18 funding to these programs, and you can find a
19 direct budget ask and recommendations in the
20 testimony provided.
21 Moving forward, the shift in student
22 demographics attending higher education
23 demands institutions to take a closer look at
24 developing resources and acknowledge how
489
1 representation in their faculty and staff
2 also matters. Research studies consistently
3 show that when students of color have faculty
4 of color to learn from and lean on, the
5 success of their educational outcomes
6 increases dramatically.
7 We strongly support the creation of
8 the SUNY Office of Diversity and Educational
9 Equity and urge $500,000 in funding to be
10 allocated to SUNY for this purpose. This
11 office will be tasked with drafting a report
12 to the Governor and Legislature on diversity
13 efforts that must include enrollment from
14 underrepresented students, staff and faculty.
15 In summation, New York must continue
16 to fund the Senator Jose Peralta New York
17 State DREAM Act and invest in its
18 implementation, as well as ensure that HESC
19 and higher education institutions are
20 receiving enough funding to educate and
21 dispel misinformation to fearful undocumented
22 communities.
23 Additionally, Opportunity Programs are
24 specifically designed to benefit
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1 first-generation college students. New York
2 must increase the funding for these programs
3 to end generational wealth inequities.
4 Lastly, as we acknowledge that student
5 demographics become more diverse, there is a
6 high need of a center that specializes in
7 capturing data that reinforces diversity and
8 inclusion.
9 I thank you for your time and
10 re-emphasize how critical it is to prioritize
11 this budget ask for the benefit of many
12 students, communities and the whole state.
13 Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
15 Thank you for being here.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
17 much.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Next, the
19 Police Benevolent Association of New York
20 State, Ryan Law, PBA president and University
21 Police Officers director.
22 MR. LAW: Good evening, respected
23 members of the joint committee. My name is
24 Ryan Law, and I am the director of the
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1 University Police Officers and the current
2 president of the Police Benevolent
3 Association of New York State.
4 The PBA of New York State is a law
5 enforcement labor union representing
6 approximately 1200 members of the bargaining
7 unit representing the New York State
8 University Police, New York State
9 Environmental Conservation Police, New York
10 State Park Police, and New York State Forest
11 Rangers.
12 I submitted a lengthy written
13 testimony, but in the interests of time I
14 will speak on the highlighted areas here.
15 The four units of the PBA are
16 comprised of the second, third, fourth and
17 fifth largest units of police officers
18 employed in New York State. The officers
19 live and work in your districts. We are
20 keeping you, the students and staff of SUNY
21 campuses, the visitors of our parks and other
22 public lands, as well as New York State's
23 natural resources, safe. We are all
24 extraordinarily trained and have specialized
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1 skill sets to respond to a crisis anywhere in
2 the State of New York.
3 I am here today advocating for all
4 four police agencies of the PBA, but as
5 today's hearing is on higher education, I
6 will focus on the PBA members who are
7 New York State University Police Officers and
8 the attrition crisis facing the departments
9 they work for.
10 The dedicated men and women who have
11 worked for New York State University Police
12 protect students, staff and general campus
13 communities of 29 of our SUNY campuses from
14 Long Island to Buffalo, the Southern Tier and
15 the North Country. That includes three
16 campuses in New York City. If we don't have
17 a campus in your district, we most certainly
18 have one near it.
19 Gone are the days where SUNY campuses
20 were staffed with unarmed peace officers.
21 Today SUNY campuses are protected by
22 professional police officers who are fully
23 certified, trained and expect to protect
24 campus communities from active shooters with
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1 rifles to terrorists with even more dangerous
2 weapons. We had a shooting with two deaths
3 yesterday at Texas A&M University. These are
4 serious, real concerns of ours.
5 We take our job to protect students
6 and staff seriously. And if you have a child
7 or a loved one attending or working on a SUNY
8 campus, you can sleep better at night knowing
9 we are going to defend these people with our
10 lives.
11 There is, however, a notable weakness
12 in the State University Police of our 29
13 campuses, and that is our alarmingly high
14 attrition rates. Specifically, I am talking
15 about the constant resignations of recently
16 hired young police officers who leave the
17 New York State University Police to join
18 other police departments, municipal or state,
19 thereby creating vacancies in their
20 respective University Police departments.
21 New York State University Police are
22 bleeding officers at an astonishing rate,
23 which is resulting in dangerous attrition
24 numbers. The same applies to New York State
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1 Park Police. Young, diverse officers fresh
2 out of the Police Academy routinely leave PBA
3 of NYS to join other law enforcement units
4 that offer better pay, retirement and
5 benefits.
6 Research conducted by the PBA of NYS
7 indicates that over the last six years, a
8 total of 410 officers left the University
9 Police forces. One hundred eighteen of the
10 total departing 410 UPOs specifically went to
11 other law enforcement units at the state and
12 local level. This is an astonishing
13 attrition rate of over 30 percent.
14 The main factor in attrition rates for
15 UPOs transferring to other law enforcement is
16 the lack of a 20-year retirement option in
17 the units represented by the PBA. The
18 departments they are transferring to have
19 20-year pensions. Attrition, however,
20 fosters the development of other problems,
21 such as diversity. Unfortunately, as
22 research indicates, the attrition trend lines
23 are moving in the wrong direction and are
24 becoming more severe.
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1 Yes, there is a cost to the 20-year
2 retirement legislation for this unit, but the
3 savings from the stemming of attrition will
4 offset that. New York State spends between
5 $100,000 and $120,000, depending on location,
6 to hire, train and equip just one officer
7 from the academy to their first year of
8 service. Simple math reveals a total
9 attrition cost of over $12 million,
10 significantly offsetting the fiscal costs of
11 this bill.
12 More importantly than the cost savings
13 are the intangibles. SUNY campuses, like
14 other educational institutions, are
15 considered potentially vulnerable to active
16 shooters and terrorists. If we can't have
17 stable and well-staffed police departments,
18 how can these departments adequately protect
19 SUNY communities? They can't. And the high
20 attrition rate is a public safety issue that
21 must be addressed.
22 There's also a diversity issue here.
23 Competitive pay and benefits are invaluable
24 to retain and recruit female officers as well
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1 as young UPOs of color. New York State takes
2 great pride in the diversity of its SUNY
3 campuses and system. Shouldn't SUNY police
4 officers reflect the campuses they serve?
5 With the current substandard 20-year pension,
6 SUNY campuses are at a point that they have
7 poorly staffed police departments and lack
8 diversity.
9 I want to thank the Legislature for
10 understanding this and effectively addressing
11 it. Last year the Senate and Assembly
12 overwhelmingly passed Senate 5207-Gounardes,
13 same as Assembly 4431-Abate, which would have
14 provided the PBA members a 20-year retirement
15 plan. This body addressed the dangers of
16 unstable SUNY police forces and their lack of
17 diversity but, sadly and inexplicably,
18 Governor Cuomo vetoed the bill -- see Veto
19 Message 265 of 2019.
20 The legislation was simply about
21 parity, safety and diversity as New York
22 State Troopers and over 400 statewide
23 municipal police forces who are currently
24 entitled to a 20-year retirement plan. You
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1 also passed and the Governor also vetoed the
2 PBA's three-quarter accidental disability
3 bill and the SUNY heart bill, which also
4 harmed our morale and ultimately affects
5 attrition losses as well.
6 In closing, the PBA of New York State
7 encourages the Legislature to provide
8 University Police, Park Police, Forest
9 Rangers and Environmental Conservation
10 Officers with the proper tools and give us
11 parity with other law enforcement, such as a
12 20-year retirement and three-quarters
13 accidental disability benefits. This will
14 assure the PBA of NYS can continue to keep
15 the public safe and maximize the public
16 safety to take advantage of New York State's
17 natural beauty.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
19 We have a question from the Senate.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We have two
21 questions from the Senate.
22 Senator Toby Stavisky.
23 SENATOR STAVISKY: One question. I
24 raised the issue of the attrition rate with
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1 the chancellor, and she was not familiar with
2 it. And I promised to get her the material.
3 MR. LAW: Okay.
4 SENATOR STAVISKY: Okay? Maybe you
5 want to reach out as a result.
6 MR. LAW: Can I comment on that
7 quickly?
8 SENATOR STAVISKY: Excuse me?
9 MR. LAW: Can I comment on that
10 quickly?
11 SENATOR STAVISKY: Sure -- no, I -- I
12 want the relationship to be a positive one
13 between the police and the SUNY
14 administration.
15 MR. LAW: I have a very positive
16 comment.
17 SENATOR STAVISKY: Good.
18 MR. LAW: We did -- we were aware of
19 the testimony from earlier today. I
20 appreciate you raising that. And we did
21 reach out to the chancellor's office today,
22 and about an hour ago I heard back from the
23 chancellor's office, who stated that she will
24 be making an effort as early as tomorrow to
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1 reach out to us, or us to reach out to her,
2 to make a meeting.
3 SENATOR STAVISKY: Good. Good.
4 MR. LAW: Thank you.
5 SENATOR STAVISKY: Glad to hear that.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator John Liu.
7 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair.
8 Thank you for testifying today. I
9 know you've been waiting all --
10 (Mic off; discussion off the record.)
11 SENATOR LIU: There you go. I didn't
12 even touch anything.
13 But I just wanted to thank you for
14 your testimony. Obviously we have -- we have
15 a lot of activity on college campuses
16 nowadays, and SUNY is not -- it continues to
17 be a hotbed of activism.
18 So I recognize the sometimes very
19 difficult job that your members do to keep
20 peace on campus while allowing students as
21 much freedom as possible. And so I certainly
22 support your attempts at parity, recognizing
23 the very difficult work that you and your
24 members do.
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1 Thank you.
2 MR. LAW: Thank you very much.
3 Appreciate it.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you for
5 being here.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
7 MR. LAW: Thank you all.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Our next and
9 final speaker, Mac-Olivier Lalanne, who I
10 understand traveled here from Plattsburgh to
11 be with us tonight.
12 MR. LALANNE: Actually, that was a
13 quick run-down.
14 There was like a technical difficulty
15 with me printing the copies, so if you see
16 anything missing, I apologize for that.
17 And there's also -- not to repeat like
18 stuff that people said beforehand, which is
19 kind of most of the stuff I said on my
20 testimony, so I can put some additions and
21 summarize, since I have a short amount of
22 time. So I'm going to start now.
23 (Laughter.)
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay.
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1 MR. LALANNE: Good evening, members of
2 the Assembly and the Senate. My name is
3 Mac-Olivier Lalanne. I am currently a
4 sophomore at SUNY Plattsburgh, and I reside
5 in Brooklyn, New York. I am here to testify
6 on the need of funding for our college and
7 universities on behalf of students like me
8 attending college or preparing to attend
9 college.
10 First I want to say thank you for your
11 efforts to invest your time, money, and
12 energy to help us students get into college,
13 and thank you for allowing me to testify.
14 Next, I would like to say that
15 although we appreciate the effort, we all
16 believe that more can be done. Every year,
17 colleges and universities tend to increase
18 their tuition and fees, which the students
19 tend to go through tough decisions on either
20 continuing their education, apply and get a
21 private loan to pay the increase, despite the
22 consequences, in hopes to get an education,
23 get a job to pay for the increase, serve in
24 the Army via ROTC, or leave school. And the
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1 list goes on.
2 During my time as a student, I have
3 physically witnessed times departments within
4 SUNY Plattsburgh have come over and talked
5 about their budget and the importance of
6 increasing their fees -- at which I was also
7 a senator for the Student Association. And
8 students were outraged, especially when the
9 fitness or the recreation fee -- the
10 Recreation Department came over to the
11 student meeting, and the fee was approved
12 through the SUNY Board of Trustees --
13 students were outraged and even blamed the
14 Student Association for it despite the fact
15 that we had no power to approve the fee.
16 One thing that I believe is worth
17 considering is expanding the Excelsior
18 Scholarship and also the TAP, the state aid,
19 which I've -- to make it affordable for
20 people regardless of where the student goes.
21 Which as students who -- someone who goes to
22 CUNY benefits from the scholarship more than
23 a student who goes to SUNY. As we all know,
24 the Excelsior Scholarship replaces the
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1 financial aid that the students are going to
2 obtain.
3 Another thing to consider is investing
4 on a plan that would ensure students to pay
5 off financial holds in their student
6 accounts, as I too have seen many students
7 who want to apply to classes next semester
8 but can't do so because they have a hold in
9 their account, thus penalizing and exploiting
10 students to pay off the hold or risk not
11 going to class or even school the next
12 semester, which is not fair for those who
13 suffer from financial difficulties or
14 hardships.
15 Another thing I would say -- oh, I'm
16 sorry. Another thing that you all should
17 consider is granting aid for colleges and
18 universities when it comes to diversity and
19 inclusion, as I feel that yes, anyone can go
20 to college after high school, there is a lack
21 of diverse people and cultures which,
22 depending on the location of the college,
23 there is little to no resource or a voice for
24 the misrepresented people.
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1 During my times as a college student,
2 I have heard stories and incidents that
3 students like me have faced. To summarize it
4 all up, college administrations throughout
5 New York State didn't quite do a good job on
6 addressing issues concerning racial issues or
7 that involved misrepresented people. I know
8 my school isn't the only one which --
9 actually, one example is that -- which is a
10 true story.
11 A year before I came in, which was the
12 year of two thousand -- well, the year I came
13 in was 2018. But in 2017 there was a
14 Snapchat incident which, to summarize it, was
15 a student that kind of like -- there was a
16 student that is currently not in school
17 posted like a social media post that was kind
18 of insensitive towards the black community in
19 the school.
20 The administration didn't really quite
21 do a good job and -- which led to like the
22 school revitalizing the administration to
23 include a diversity and inclusion position,
24 to create a community room for unrepresented
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1 people, and the list goes on.
2 Thank you for allowing me and other
3 people to testify, and I hope this
4 legislative session goes well for you all.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
6 Senator Krueger.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Just one
8 question.
9 So in your testimony you talk about
10 that the college that I think you're at is
11 not necessarily handling diversity and
12 differences that well. But you also say you
13 think that CUNY students' aid goes further
14 than SUNY students'. I don't think there's a
15 difference. So can you clarify that for me?
16 MR. LALANNE: Well, because like for
17 the -- for like the Excelsior Scholarship,
18 like you will benefit more because like for
19 CUNY, people get to commute through -- like
20 if I would, say, go to Brooklyn College,
21 currently my time, I could like literally
22 just like commute through the train and won't
23 really cause as much of a problem.
24 But if I were to go to like a SUNY, it
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1 would like deny all of my financial aid and
2 then I would have to pay all of the fees
3 for -- because I am also a on-campus student.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. So I guess
5 I'll leave it there for tonight. Because I
6 didn't think we had different standards --
7 just the room and board difference --
8 MR. LALANNE: Yes, room and board and
9 fees.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: -- not the other
11 amounts.
12 Okay, thank you very much. Thank you
13 for your testimony.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
15 Just a quick question. What part of Brooklyn
16 are you from?
17 MR. LALANNE: I am from Crown Heights.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay. So
19 walking distance to Medgar Evers, and you
20 went all the way upstate.
21 (Laughter.)
22 MR. LALANNE: Yup.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay. Well,
24 you're getting a good education. Thank you
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1 so much for being here and helping to be the
2 face of the students that we are working to
3 make sure can succeed at college. Thank you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
5 MR. LALANNE: And also I actually
6 didn't read this in my testimony, which --
7 sorry to hold the time over. I would also
8 like to consider more aid and funding when it
9 comes to food pantries and also more aid and
10 funding when it comes to the civic engagement
11 and voter participation, as I feel like yes,
12 colleges can grant students those services,
13 but voter registration there is not
14 completely enough for those types of
15 services.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So thank you
19 for being here, and feel free to -- you
20 can -- everybody, not just you -- people can
21 have up to seven days after the hearing ends
22 to submit additional testimony or new
23 testimony if they haven't yet done so.
24 So this concludes the Higher Education
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1 hearing. The joint budget committees will be
2 reconvening at 9:30 tomorrow morning for the
3 Workforce Development budget hearing and at
4 noon for the Housing budget hearing.
5 Thank you.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
7 (Whereupon, the budget hearing concluded
8 at 6:02 p.m.)
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