1
1 BEFORE THE NEW YORK STATE SENATE FINANCE
AND ASSEMBLY WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEES
2 -----------------------------------------------------
3 JOINT LEGISLATIVE HEARING
4 In the Matter of the
2022-2023 EXECUTIVE BUDGET ON
5 PUBLIC PROTECTION
6 -----------------------------------------------------
7 Virtual Hearing
Held via Zoom
8
January 25, 2022
9 9:36 a.m.
10
PRESIDING:
11
Senator Liz Krueger
12 Chair, Senate Finance Committee
13 Assemblywoman Helene E. Weinstein
Chair, Assembly Ways & Means Committee
14
PRESENT:
15
Senator Thomas F. O'Mara
16 Senate Finance Committee (RM)
17 Assemblyman Edward P. Ra
Assembly Ways & Means Committee (RM)
18
Senator Brad Hoylman
19 Chair, Senate Committee on Judiciary
20 Assemblyman Charles D. Lavine
Chair, Assembly Committee on Judiciary
21
Senator Jamaal T. Bailey
22 Chair, Senate Committee on Codes
23 Assemblyman Jeffrey Dinowitz
Chair, Assembly Committee on Codes
24
2
1 2022-2023 Executive Budget
Public Protection
2 1-25-22
3 PRESENT: (Continued)
4 Senator Julia Salazar
Chair, Senate Committee on Crime Victims,
5 Crime and Correction
6 Assemblyman David I. Weprin
Chair, Assembly Committee on Correction
7
Assemblyman Kenneth P. Zebrowski
8 Chair, Assembly Committee on Governmental
Operations
9
Senator Diane J. Savino
10 Chair, Senate Committee on Internet and
Technology
11
Senator Gustavo Rivera
12
Assemblyman Harry B. Bronson
13
Senator Pete Harckham
14
Senator Andrew Gounardes
15
Assemblyman Erik M. Dilan
16
Assemblywoman Jenifer Rajkumar
17
Assemblyman Phil Steck
18
Senator Zellnor Myrie
19
Assemblywoman Dr. Anna R. Kelles
20
Senator James Tedisco
21
Assemblyman Robert C. Carroll
22
Assemblyman Joseph M. Giglio
23
Senator Luis R. Sepúlveda
24
3
1 2022-2023 Executive Budget
Public Protection
2 1-25-22
3 PRESENT: (Continued)
4 Senator Anna M. Kaplan
5 Assemblyman Thomas J. Abinanti
6 Assemblywoman Karen McMahon
7 Assemblyman Ron Kim
8 Assemblyman Philip A. Palmesano
9 Assemblywoman Catalina Cruz
10 Assemblyman Mike Lawler
11 Senator Kevin Thomas
12 Assemblyman Michael Tannousis
13 Assemblywoman Marcela Mitaynes
14 Assemblyman Harvey Epstein
15 Senator Anthony H. Palumbo
16 Assemblyman Michael Cusick
17 Senator George M. Borrello
18 Assemblywoman Rebecca Seawright
19 Assemblywoman Latoya Joyner
20 Assemblyman Michael Reilly
21 Assemblywoman Alicia Hyndman
22 Senator James Gaughran
23 Assemblyman William Colton
24 Assemblywoman Monica P. Wallace
4
1 2022-2023 Executive Budget
Public Protection
2 1-25-2022
3 PRESENT: (Continued)
4 Senator Jeremy A. Cooney
5 Assemblywoman Marjorie Byrnes
6 Senator Sue Serino
7 Assemblyman Angelo J. Morinello
8 Senator Phil Boyle
9 Assemblywoman Latrice Walker
10 Assemblyman Chris Burdick
11 Assemblyman Mark Walczyk
12 Senator Patrick M. Gallivan
13 Assemblywoman Linda B. Rosenthal
14 Assemblyman Jeffrion L. Aubry
15 Assemblyman Kenny Burgos
16 Senator Fred Akshar
17 Assemblywoman Vivian E. Cook
18 Senator Peter Oberacker
19 Assemblyman John T. McDonald III
20 Assemblyman J. Gary pretlow
21 Senator Patty Ritchie
22
23
24
5
1 2022-2023 Executive Budget
Public Protection
2 1-25-22
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Honorable Lawrence K. Marks
Chief Administrative Judge
6 NYS Office of Court
Administration 15 24
7
Robert H. Tembeckjian
8 Administrator and Counsel
New York State Commission on
9 Judicial Conduct 158 163
10 Jackie Bray
Commissioner
11 NYS Division of Homeland Security
and Emergency Services 188 194
12
Rossana Rosado
13 Commissioner
NYS Division of Criminal
14 Justice Services 216 224
15 Anthony J. Annucci
Acting Commissioner
16 NYS Department of Corrections 303 309
17 Kevin P. Bruen
Superintendent
18 NYS Division of State Police 434 441
19 Angelo Riddick
Interim CIO and Director
20 NYS Office of Information
Technology Services 510 517
21
Patricia Warth
22 Director
NYS of Indigent Legal
23 Services 534 543
24
6
1 2022-2023 Executive Budget
Public Protection
2 1-25-22
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Shayna Kessler
Senior Planner
6 Vera Institute of Justice
-and-
7 Karin Anderson Ponzer
Director
8 Neighbors Link Community
Law Practice 581 588
9
Rachel Halperin
10 CEO
Legal Services of the
11 Hudson Valley
-and-
12 Joan Gerhardt
Director of Public Policy
13 and Advocacy
New York State Coalition
14 Against Domestic Violence
-and-
15 Anthony Maud
Member
16 Treatment Not Jail Coalition
-and-
17 Sebastian Doggart
Executive Director
18 Families Civil Liberties
Union 597 611
19
20
21
22
23
24
7
1 2022-2023 Executive Budget
Public Protection
2 1-25-22
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Karen Murtagh
Executive Director
6 Prisoners' Legal Services
of New York
7 -and-
Theresa Grady
8 Community Leader
Release Aging People in Prison
9 Campaign
-and-
10 Sirena Sharpe
Community Leader
11 Center for Community Alternatives
-and-
12 Nan Gibson
Executive Director
13 JPMorgan Chase PolicyCenter 631 645
14 Brian Zimmerman
Vice President
15 Assigned Counsel Association
of New York State
16 -and-
Susan C. Bryant
17 Executive Director
NYS Defenders Association 668 674
18
Troy Caupain
19 PBA Secretary
Police Benevolent Association
20 of New York State
-and-
21 Timothy M. Dymond
President
22 NYS Police Investigators
Association
23 -and-
Michael B. Powers
24 President
NYSCOPBA 676 685
8
1 2022-2023 Executive Budget
Public Protection
2 1-25-22
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 J. Anthony Jordan
President
6 District Attorneys Association
of the State of New York
7 -and-
Imogene V. Jones
8 President
NYS Court Clerks Association
9 -and-
Elena Sassower
10 Director
Center for Judicial
11 Accountability 727 738
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
9
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Good morning,
2 everyone. Hi. I'm State Senator Liz
3 Krueger, the chair of the Finance Committee
4 in the Senate.
5 I'm joined by many legislators, but --
6 perhaps most importantly for budget
7 hearings -- my colleague in the Assembly
8 Helene Weinstein, the chair of the Assembly
9 Ways and Means Committee, which means
10 "Finance Committee" in Senate language.
11 We take turns in these budget
12 hearings, and today's hearing is the first of
13 13 hearings, but that will be chaired by the
14 Finance Committee.
15 I just want to quickly go over a
16 couple of rules of the road for all the
17 hearings.
18 First, if you're not speaking, please
19 keep yourself on mute, because it's amazing
20 how it can get so confusing if you go to
21 answer a phone or somebody walks into the
22 room.
23 Second, everyone will be getting --
24 excuse me, the government representatives
10
1 will be getting 10 minutes to testify and
2 then the legislators will be able to ask
3 questions. The chair of the committee also
4 gets -- of the relevant committee gets
5 10 minutes to ask questions. All the other
6 legislators get five minutes. And we go back
7 and forth between Senate and Assembly until
8 we complete that particular testifier's
9 questions.
10 And this is a long hearing, for people
11 who have followed Public Protection, so that
12 will continue as a pattern throughout the day
13 and I suspect evening. Hopefully just early
14 evening.
15 Again, if you want to ask a question,
16 please raise your hand with the hand button
17 at the bottom of your screen, Assemblymembers
18 and Senators, and we will be calling on you.
19 I want to just make the opening
20 statement first, and then I will start to
21 introduce Senators and Helene will start to
22 introduce Assemblymembers.
23 So again, good morning. Today is the
24 first of 13 hearings conducted by the joint
11
1 fiscal committees of the Legislature
2 regarding the Governor's proposed budget for
3 state fiscal year '22-'23. These hearings
4 are conducted pursuant to the New York State
5 Constitution and Legislative Law.
6 Today the Senate Finance Committee and
7 the Assembly Ways and Means Committee will
8 hear testimony concerning the Governor's
9 proposed budget for the Judiciary, the State
10 Commission on Judicial Conduct, the Office of
11 Indigent Legal Services, the New York State
12 Division of Homeland Security and Emergency
13 Services, the New York State Office of
14 Information Technology, the New York State
15 Division of Criminal Justice Services, the
16 New York State Department of Corrections and
17 Community Supervision, and the New York State
18 Division of State Police.
19 Following each testimony there will be
20 some time for questions from the chairs of
21 the fiscal committees and other legislators.
22 I will now introduce members of the
23 Senate, and Assemblymember Helene Weinstein,
24 chair of the Assembly Ways and Means
12
1 Committee, will introduce members from the
2 Assembly. In addition, Tom O'Mara, my
3 ranking member of the Senate Finance
4 Committee, will introduce the members from
5 his conference.
6 And now let me just get to the list of
7 people who are here already. All right.
8 It's a little tricky because we're looking at
9 boxes and lists, but we do our best here.
10 All right, as I mentioned, we have the Senate
11 chair of Codes, Jamaal Bailey; Senator Luis
12 Sepúlveda; Senator Andrew Gounardes;
13 Senator Anna Kaplan; Senator Brad Hoylman,
14 chair of Judiciary; Senator Gustavo Rivera;
15 Senator Jeremy Cooney; Senator Zellnor Myrie.
16 And Tom O'Mara, I'm going to ask you
17 to introduce the Republican Senators here
18 with us.
19 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you,
20 Senator Krueger.
21 In addition to myself, at this point
22 we are joined by Senator Jim Tedisco on the
23 minority side. And that's it right now. I
24 think a bunch of our members are finishing up
13
1 another meeting right now, so I'm sure there
2 will be more joining us.
3 Thank you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
5 much.
6 And so now Helene Weinstein to
7 introduce the Assemblymembers.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you,
9 Chair Krueger. It's a pleasure to join you
10 today and start probably our longest budget
11 hearing of the series. And as everybody
12 knows, since we're virtual there is a
13 little -- we'll catch up with -- as things go
14 along.
15 I want to introduce our committee
16 members who are here: Assemblyman Dinowitz,
17 chair of our Codes Committee;
18 Assemblyman Weprin, chair of our
19 Corrections Committee; Assemblyman Bronson,
20 Assemblyman Burdick; Assemblyman Carroll;
21 Assemblyman Epstein; Assemblywoman Hyndman;
22 and Assemblywoman Rajkumar.
23 I also just wanted to clarify the time
24 frames, because -- for the chairs are
14
1 10 minutes, and the chairs of each of the
2 committees are the only ones who will have a
3 second round of three minutes. The rankers
4 have five minutes. And so that we end before
5 the next hearing begins, all other members
6 who are here have three minutes.
7 I just would encourage members to ask
8 questions, not make statements, so that the
9 witnesses have time to answer the questions.
10 And now I'd like to turn it over to
11 the ranker of the Assembly Ways and Means
12 Committee, Assemblyman Ed Ra.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you,
14 Chair Weinstein. Good morning, everybody.
15 We are currently joined by
16 Assemblyman Joe Giglio, our ranker on the
17 Corrections Committee; Assemblyman Mike
18 Lawler, the ranker on the Gov Ops Committee;
19 Assemblyman Angelo Morinello, our ranker on
20 Codes; as well as members Palmesano, Walczyk,
21 and Tannousis.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Great. Thank you
23 very much.
24 And Helene, thank you so much for
15
1 clarifying on the second-round issue and on
2 the three minute versus five minutes. It's
3 so easy to get lost in the details of these
4 hearings as we re-practice what we'll be
5 incredibly good at by Day 13, for those of us
6 who stick it out with us.
7 With that, I would like to introduce
8 the Honorable Lawrence Marks, Chief
9 Administrative Judge of the Office of Court
10 Administration, as our first testifier.
11 And all the legislators should have
12 already received the testimony. And I
13 believe the public also has access to the
14 testimony for following along.
15 Good morning, Judge Marks.
16 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Good
17 morning, Chair Krueger, and good morning,
18 Chairperson Weinstein. And I'd like to say
19 good morning and acknowledge the Judiciary
20 chairs, Senator Hoylman and Assemblyman
21 Lavine, as well as all the other members
22 participating today.
23 I'm Lawrence Marks. I'm the
24 Chief Administrative Judge of the state court
16
1 system. And thank you for the opportunity to
2 be here with you this morning to discuss the
3 Judiciary's budget request for the 2022-2023
4 fiscal year.
5 Our budget request will enable the
6 courts to continue to fulfill their mission
7 of providing justice to the people of
8 New York. It calls for an appropriation of
9 approximately $2.4 billion in state operating
10 funds. Our budget also projects a
11 $58.2 million increase in state operations
12 spending, which is a 2.5 percent increase
13 over our current cash plan.
14 So as was the case last year, this
15 year's budget request must be viewed in the
16 context of the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic.
17 The pandemic has presented the Judiciary with
18 multiple challenges. These have included the
19 unprecedented task of keeping the courts open
20 consistent with rapidly changing public
21 health needs -- and, at least in the early
22 stages of the pandemic, to do so with
23 significantly less funding than would
24 otherwise have been available during a normal
17
1 year.
2 Throughout the course of the pandemic,
3 the court system has adapted its operations
4 to comply with the prevailing guidance
5 provided by public health authorities. And
6 very early on, while determined to keep the
7 courts open for business, we limited our
8 in-person operations to essential and
9 emergency applications only. That was
10 quickly followed by a program of virtual
11 court operations which used the latest in
12 technology. And this made it possible for
13 judges and staff to safely adjudicate cases
14 in all of our courts across the state.
15 But as time passed and as we learned
16 more about COVID-19, we were able to resume
17 in-person court appearances in critical
18 matters such as grand jury proceedings,
19 criminal arraignments, evidentiary hearings,
20 and criminal and civil jury trials. In doing
21 so, we followed a rigorous screening program
22 of temperature checks, self-reporting of
23 exposure and symptoms for court personnel and
24 court users, extensive use of masks and other
18
1 personal protective equipment in all public
2 court spaces, social distancing, and cleaning
3 protocols.
4 In addition, beginning in the late
5 summer of 2021, we were one of the leaders in
6 the state in introducing a mandatory testing
7 program requiring all unvaccinated judges and
8 nonjudicial staff to undergo weekly COVID
9 testing; and, subsequently, in introducing a
10 mandatory vaccination program requiring
11 judges and staff to be vaccinated unless they
12 qualified for a medical or religious
13 exemption.
14 Looking forward, we are committed to
15 resuming full court operations, including the
16 full resumption of jury trials, in the
17 upcoming fiscal year. And this budget will
18 enable us to do so.
19 In following through on this
20 commitment in 2022-'23, we will continue to
21 make every effort to fill vacant nonjudicial
22 positions in the courts. During the pandemic
23 the court system has seen hundreds of
24 employees retire and leave for other reasons.
19
1 And at the same time, because of the state's
2 fiscal crisis in 2020-'21, the Judiciary, at
3 the urging of the Executive, cut its planned
4 spending through a variety of austerity
5 measures, which included a system-wide hiring
6 freeze.
7 These circumstances prevented the
8 courts from filling vacancies, although
9 fortunately this past year we were able to
10 end the freeze and resume hiring. And the
11 budget we have submitted will enable us to
12 continue to fill vacancies during the
13 upcoming fiscal year.
14 While this will still leave us with
15 vacancies to fill to return to pre-pandemic
16 employment levels, the new hires will allow
17 us effectively to resume full court
18 operations. This in turn will enable us to
19 continue our commitment to Chief Judge Janet
20 DiFiore's Excellence Initiative, our
21 comprehensive effort to achieve operational
22 and decisional excellence throughout the
23 Unified Court System.
24 Our budget submission will also permit
20
1 us to meet other critical goals. These
2 include the funding of three new court
3 officer academy classes to help ensure safety
4 in courthouses statewide, and an upgrading
5 and expansion of the courts' technology
6 capacity to facilitate virtual court
7 appearances where appropriate, to expand case
8 management systems, to enhance cybersecurity
9 for the courts' computer network, and to
10 increase our ability to provide the
11 Legislature and the public with critical
12 information regarding caseload activity.
13 Another crucial goal addressed in our
14 budget request is enhancement of the
15 Judiciary's support for civil legal services.
16 In our budget we ask for an increase from
17 $85 million to $95.7 million in funding for
18 nonprofit agencies that provide direct legal
19 services and access to justice services to
20 help low-income New Yorkers across the state
21 secure the essentials of life. We also ask
22 for an increase from $15 million to
23 $16.8 million in funding for the Interest on
24 Lawyer Account Fund, likewise to be
21
1 distributed to nonprofit agencies that
2 provide legal services to the poor. These
3 increases are necessary to help fulfill the
4 state's longstanding commitment to civil
5 legal services.
6 I'd like to mention briefly three
7 other key initiatives that we are actively
8 pursuing, and the first is our commitment to
9 expanding our statewide program of
10 presumptive alternative dispute resolution.
11 And in the interests of time, I won't
12 go into the details of this, but I would
13 refer you to the written remarks that I've
14 submitted to the members.
15 But we are also continuing our full
16 commitment to implementing the
17 recommendations of the Johnson report. In
18 2020 the Chief Judge appointed Jeh Johnson,
19 the prominent New York City attorney and
20 former U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security,
21 to serve as our Special Advisor on Equal
22 Justice in the Courts. His charge was to
23 conduct a broad review of the programs,
24 practices, and policies of the court system
22
1 for evidence of systematic and implicit
2 racial bias.
3 In the fall of 2020 he reported that,
4 notwithstanding the hard work of Judiciary
5 personnel, there is ample evidence that
6 New York's court system remains
7 underresourced and overburdened, and that
8 this has a disparate impact on people of
9 color. In his report, Secretary Johnson
10 presented numerous recommendations to broadly
11 improve the court experience for people of
12 color.
13 We have fully embraced all of them,
14 and our efforts have yielded numerous
15 accomplishments, which are summarized in an
16 annual report released last November by the
17 Chief Judge. Many challenges remain,
18 however. And in the year ahead, we will
19 redouble our efforts to keep faith with
20 Secretary Johnson's recommendations to
21 promote a court system free of bias and
22 discrimination.
23 Finally, in 2022 we will renew our
24 effort to simplify our trial court system
23
1 through a constitutional amendment to merge
2 our nine major trial courts into two courts:
3 a Supreme Court and a Municipal Court. In
4 making this effort, we will be joined by a
5 coalition of over 100 groups representing all
6 corners of the community -- bench, bar, legal
7 services providers, business, and good
8 government.
9 Our task is challenging, but it is not
10 insurmountable. The end we seek -- a court
11 system that can be more efficiently managed,
12 that distributes its resources more evenly to
13 ensure that every community has fair access
14 to justice, and that is more easily
15 accessible and understandable to the
16 public -- is one we all should share. We
17 look forward to working with you in the days
18 ahead to make it happen.
19 So I close by emphasizing that even
20 while the COVID-19 pandemic stays with us,
21 the courts remain committed to assuring the
22 fair and prompt administration of justice.
23 And the budget we have submitted, if
24 approved, will enable us to meet that
24
1 commitment.
2 So thank you for your attention, and
3 of course I'm more than happy to answer any
4 questions you may have.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
6 much, Judge.
7 And before we turn it over to the
8 first questioner, Judiciary Chair Brad
9 Hoylman, I want to announce that we have been
10 joined since the last time we went through
11 the list by Senator Diane Savino, by Senator
12 Jim Gaughran, by Senator Patrick Gallivan, by
13 Senator Pete Harckham.
14 I don't know if you have additional
15 Assemblymembers, Helene. Okay, I don't think
16 so right now.
17 Then I'm going to turn it over to --
18 oh, hi. Did you have additional
19 Assemblymembers you wanted to announce?
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes, if we
21 could.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sure.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We've been
24 joined by Chair Zebrowski of the Government
25
1 Ops Committee; Assemblyman Abinanti;
2 Assemblyman Cusick; Assemblywoman McMahon;
3 Assemblywoman Mitaynes; Assemblywoman
4 Seawright; Assemblyman Steck; and
5 Assemblywoman Walker.
6 Thank you.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
8 All right, so our first questioner is
9 Senator Brad Hoylman, chair of the Judiciary
10 Committee.
11 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you,
12 Madam Chair -- Madam Chairs.
13 Good to see you, Judge Marks. I look
14 forward to discussing further with you the
15 plans on court reorganization. We've already
16 had some preliminary conversations. I know
17 how important this initiative is.
18 And I also am happy to see that your
19 budget has increased by 2.5 percent. I think
20 you know that we in the Legislature want to
21 continue to support your efforts with the
22 state resources available.
23 I wanted to ask you first about what's
24 in the news recently -- of course, bail
26
1 reform. Since the enactment of bail reform
2 we've seen, I believe, an inconsistent
3 application of the laws by judges across the
4 state. Many tragic incidents that have been
5 blamed on bail reform stem from situations
6 where the defendant was bail-eligible but the
7 judge, it appears, in some instances declined
8 to exercise their discretion.
9 I was wondering if you could inform us
10 what kind of training has the Office of Court
11 Administration and the Judicial Institute
12 provided to judges about the new laws. And
13 in some cases, judges know the law but
14 apparently purposefully flout it.
15 And as a follow-up, what are the
16 consequences for those judges who do flout
17 the law?
18 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, I
19 guess I'd have to take issue that judges are
20 deliberately flouting the law. I mean, I'm
21 not aware of that.
22 Judging obviously is not a science.
23 Judges don't have a crystal ball. And, you
24 know, it's impossible to predict -- you can
27
1 try to predict but it's impossible to predict
2 with any certainty what the consequences
3 would be of releasing someone to the
4 community or not releasing someone to the
5 community.
6 But in terms of the training that
7 judges received on the bail legislation, they
8 did receive extensive training, in-person
9 training in 2019 at our summer judicial
10 seminars following the original enactment of
11 the legislation.
12 And the amendments that were made to
13 the bail legislation in the -- around the
14 adoption of the budget in 2020, again --
15 although judges I don't believe received
16 in-person training. But there was extensive
17 online training and webinars on bail reform.
18 There have been memos and educational
19 materials, extensive educational materials
20 that have been distributed to judges in the
21 early stages of the enactment of the
22 legislation, so -- look, you can never do
23 enough training.
24 But I'm comfortable in saying that
28
1 judges did receive extensive training on the
2 new legislation, both the original version
3 and then the amendments that took place in
4 the early months of 2020.
5 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you.
6 I would point to a Nassau County
7 district judge; in news reports, it appears
8 that the judge ignored the bail reform law
9 last year.
10 But to change tack, Judge, I was
11 wondering if we could discuss briefly the
12 eviction moratorium, which of course sadly
13 has expired, but thankfully there are still a
14 variety of protections for tenants, including
15 ERAP, the Tenant Safe Harbor Act, and various
16 protections from legislation in the Housing
17 Stability and Tenant Protection Act.
18 Can you explain to us how courts are
19 assisting tenants in understanding what their
20 rights are and what the instructions to
21 judges are on how to process these cases?
22 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well,
23 firstly, in New York City -- and the
24 overwhelming, overwhelming number of these
29
1 pending eviction cases are in New York City.
2 The number dwarfs the number of cases in the
3 57 counties outside New York City. And more
4 cases will be filed, certainly, but the vast
5 percentage of these cases are pending in
6 New York City and will ultimately be filed in
7 New York City.
8 And the most important thing that a
9 judge can do to ensure that tenants' rights
10 in these cases are recognized or understood
11 by tenants and are realized in the court
12 process is the appointment of counsel. And
13 fortunately in New York City, going back to
14 the prior mayor's administration and
15 continuing in the current mayoral
16 administration, tenants who can't afford a
17 lawyer will be matched with a lawyer. And
18 we've established a process in New York City
19 Housing Court where the first appearance will
20 be a virtual appearance -- and actually this
21 has been going on -- this isn't taking effect
22 now, this has been going on for a number of
23 months now in the New York City Housing
24 Court.
30
1 The first appearance will be for the
2 purpose of connecting the tenant with a
3 lawyer if the tenant can't afford a lawyer.
4 And the second appearance will be an
5 in-person appearance with the tenant, if the
6 tenant chooses to appear, but the lawyer
7 that's been assigned to the tenant will
8 appear in person. And the landlord, and if
9 the landlord has a lawyer, the landlord
10 and/or the landlord's lawyer will be in
11 person, with the goal of trying to resolve
12 the case without further litigation.
13 So hopefully that answers your
14 question, that the critically important step,
15 so that not only the tenants understand what
16 their rights are, but that their rights are
17 protected by legal representation, is
18 something that is assured in New York City,
19 again where the vast, vast percentage of
20 these cases are pending and will be filed.
21 Outside New York City, less of a
22 guarantee that a lawyer will be assigned to a
23 tenant who can't afford one. But I know the
24 Governor has thankfully identified that as a
31
1 problem and has suggested at least that maybe
2 there will be funding from the state to
3 replicate sort of the very positive situation
4 in New York City, in that lawyers will be
5 provided to replicate that in landlord/tenant
6 cases outside of New York City.
7 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Yes. I mean, that's
8 obviously an enormous problem outside of
9 New York City, and thank you for supporting
10 the efforts of the Governor in that regard.
11 Just to make one more pivot with my
12 remaining time, when we're discussing court
13 reopenings, particularly during the pandemic,
14 many stakeholders have continued to point to
15 significant issues with court plans. Of
16 course since that time we've had vaccines but
17 also variants that continue to threaten the
18 public's safety.
19 What have you learned since the
20 pandemic in terms of reopenings? And have
21 you considered returning to virtual
22 arraignments as requested by the defense bar?
23 Are there any plans in place for, say, the
24 safe operation of Housing Court as you
32
1 described this new process?
2 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, let
3 me just say in general, and then I'll get to
4 the specifics on the question you raised, in
5 general we've learned a lot over the last
6 nearly two years, and there have been steps
7 forward we've had to take, and steps
8 backward, based on the public health
9 circumstances. And, you know, public health
10 is critically important to us. I mean, that
11 goes without saying.
12 With respect to arraignments, for a
13 very substantial percentage of the last two
14 years now of the pandemic, arraignments were
15 conducted virtually. I can tell you -- and I
16 viewed many, many virtual arraignments in
17 this time.
18 (Zoom interruption.)
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Would everybody
20 please mute unless they are Judge Marks or
21 Brad Hoylman.
22 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Sorry.
23 That it -- the virtual approach to
24 arraignments is not ideal. And in fact
33
1 that's why the State Office of Indigent Legal
2 Services propounds a policy that
3 arraignments, except in extreme situations,
4 need to be done in person. It's a critically
5 important first appearance in a criminal
6 case.
7 And the communication and interaction
8 between the defendant and the lawyer is far
9 superior in an in-person proceeding than it
10 is in a virtual proceeding at arraignments.
11 And I believe that the Chief Defenders
12 Association of the state also strongly
13 supports in-person arraignments.
14 As for Housing Court, that's a real
15 challenge, I have to tell you. In normal
16 times our Housing Court facilities,
17 particularly in New York City, are very, very
18 crowded, Brooklyn and Bronx in particular.
19 And which is why in Housing Court we've
20 expanded to some in-person proceedings, but
21 very cautiously and very carefully. And we
22 have a limited number of in-person
23 proceedings.
24 But most of the proceedings in Housing
34
1 Court it's fair to say are still virtual, and
2 we believe it can be effective. I mean,
3 ideally we would have full in-person, but at
4 the moment that's just not practical and
5 feasible. And -- but we can conduct even
6 virtual trials in Housing Court. They're not
7 jury trials, they're judge trials. And we
8 feel a lot can be accomplished and the rights
9 of the litigants can be protected and
10 vindicated with a combination of in-person
11 and virtual proceedings in Housing Court
12 cases.
13 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you, Judge.
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry, the
15 time is up, shockingly, for 10 minutes.
16 I'm turning it over to Assemblywoman
17 Helene Weinstein to announce the first
18 Assemblymember.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
20 The first questioner will be -- and
21 actually, he joined us while Judge Marks was
22 speaking -- chair of the Assembly Judiciary
23 Committee, Assemblyman Charles Lavine, for
24 10 minutes.
35
1 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Thanks,
2 Chair Weinstein.
3 And good morning, Judge Marks. Always
4 great to see you.
5 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Good
6 morning.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Judge, during the
8 course of our sessions at times some members
9 have criticized the Judiciary, shocking as
10 that may seem, for its inability to open the
11 courts the way the courts were open
12 pre-pandemic. Now, that's an argument I
13 don't accept. I'm not even going to ask you
14 to comment on that. But having spent much of
15 my life in the courts, that's not the way it
16 is.
17 But can you describe what's been the
18 human toll on the Judiciary and court
19 personnel as a result of the pandemic?
20 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, at
21 the outset of the pandemic there was, I think
22 it's fair to say, a devastating toll. We
23 lost three judges, who passed away in the
24 early spring of 2020. Of course there's no
36
1 way to know whether they contracted COVID
2 while in the courthouse or in their -- at
3 home or, you know, in their personal lives.
4 But regardless, it was a devastating
5 circumstance for us.
6 We also lost -- fortunately, a small
7 number, a very small number, but we did lose
8 to COVID, again, back in the early spring of
9 2020, we did lose a small number of employees
10 who passed away.
11 And we've been very fortunate since
12 then in that there haven't been further
13 deaths. But a lot of our people, judges and
14 judicial staff, have contracted the virus.
15 We keep careful tracking of this. We know
16 when someone's tested positive; they're
17 required to report that to us.
18 And aside from the human toll, it's
19 had a very substantial and difficult impact
20 on court operations, particularly I would say
21 under the latest resurgence of the virus,
22 which -- knock on wood -- has not been
23 anywhere near as devastating in terms of the
24 health consequences but has exerted itself on
37
1 a much larger scale than prior resurgences.
2 And we do the best we can. I mean,
3 you know, we haven't been able to operate --
4 you know, particularly with this latest
5 resurgence, at full staffing, but we do the
6 best we can, relying on virtual proceedings
7 where it's necessary to do that, but relying
8 on in-person proceedings. And our goal is to
9 go back to full in-person proceedings when
10 public health circumstances would allow for
11 that.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Judge, I
13 understand that at a recent jury trial on I
14 believe a criminal matter, more than one
15 courtroom had to be utilized. One courtroom
16 had to be used to house the jury, and another
17 courtroom for arguments. It was a total of
18 three courtrooms. Is that accurate? Are we
19 now in a logistical situation, a logistical
20 conundrum, so to speak, where we have to use
21 multiple courtrooms in order to conduct a
22 single jury trial?
23 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: You're
24 absolutely correct in what you're describing.
38
1 The reason for that is we've adhered and
2 continue to adhere to the six-foot social
3 distancing rule, which is the CDC guideline
4 for indoor public places where there's no
5 assurance that people coming into those
6 indoor public spaces have been vaccinated,
7 which is a category that the courthouses and
8 courtrooms fall into.
9 So -- and the State Health Department
10 has adhered to the six-foot social distancing
11 rule in these situations.
12 We would like to get the backing of
13 the CDC and the State Health Department to
14 mitigate the six-foot social distancing rule,
15 because it would allow us to conduct many
16 more trials, which is something that we are
17 very determined to be able to do. As I say,
18 a court system can't be a full court system
19 without being able to conduct a significant
20 number of jury trials.
21 I mean, as you know as a former
22 practicing lawyer, most cases on both the
23 criminal side and the civil side are resolved
24 without the necessity of a trial. But we
39
1 need to do trials. Trials can keep the
2 system honest. And again, under existing
3 protocols, it's been very difficult to do
4 that on a large scale.
5 But our goal is to be able to return
6 to conducting jury trials on a large scale,
7 and hopefully that will happen.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Last question, on
9 a microeconomic scale.
10 For capital projects, the Judiciary
11 Budget includes $25 million for continued
12 improvements to court technology
13 infrastructure. Can you describe how that
14 money will be used?
15 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, it
16 will be used to upgrade and expand our case
17 management systems. For those of you not
18 familiar with that term, our case management
19 systems that every court in the state has, it
20 is a part of -- it's where all the relevant
21 information and data about the case is
22 entered. And it would be hard to imagine
23 running a court system these days, with the
24 volume and complexity of cases we have,
40
1 without a robust and efficient and effective
2 case management system.
3 So some of the funding would go to
4 that. Some of it would go to things like
5 enhancing sound within courtrooms, which
6 believe it or not can be a problem,
7 particularly with participants -- witnesses
8 and lawyers -- wearing masks. Audio, there
9 are audio challenges with that. So some of
10 the money would be going to enhancing sound
11 competency in courtrooms. Money will go to
12 replacing x-ray machines and magnetometers in
13 the lobbies of courthouses. Some of it will
14 go to continuing our digitization of court
15 records, which is an enormous undertaking
16 that's been underway for several years.
17 So those are some of the examples of
18 where that money will be very well spent.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Thanks,
20 Judge Marks. I have no further questions.
21 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Thank you.
22 SENATOR RIVERA: You're muted, Liz.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Am I supposed to
24 just continue on and on?
41
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I apologize. I
2 apologize, everyone. I for some reason lost
3 my unmute button for a second. We are now
4 turning it over to --
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senator,
6 before -- can I just announce some of the
7 members who have joined us while --
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Of course. Of
9 course.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: -- questions
11 have been going on? Assemblywoman Cruz,
12 Assemblyman Cusick, Assemblyman Dilan,
13 Assemblywoman Kelles, Assemblyman Kim,
14 Assemblywoman Rosenthal.
15 Thank you. Now to the Senate.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
17 And actually we've been joined by
18 Senator George Borrello and Senator Fred
19 Akshar since the last list was called up.
20 And I believe our next questioner, for
21 three minutes, is Senator Zellnor Myrie.
22 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you,
23 Madam Chair.
24 And thank you, Judge Marks. I'm going
42
1 to try and be as efficient as possible in my
2 questioning, and my hope is that you will do
3 the same in answering.
4 I want to talk about Surrogate's Court
5 very briefly. And if you can, again, try and
6 be brief in your responses. Am I correct in
7 understanding that the Surrogate's Court and
8 specifically the Kings County Surrogate's
9 Court handles upwards of tens of millions of
10 dollars in real and personal property every
11 year?
12 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: That's
13 correct.
14 SENATOR MYRIE: And it is correct that
15 that is also handled by the Kings County
16 public administrator's office?
17 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: The public
18 administrator's office handles cases where
19 there's no will and there's no family member
20 or relative or someone who will step forward
21 to serve as the administrator of the estate.
22 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you. So they do
23 handle, in many cases, pretty valuable real
24 and personal property, correct?
43
1 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yes.
2 SENATOR MYRIE: And is there an
3 auditing function by the OCA? Do you oversee
4 that particular office to assure that general
5 accounting principles are met and that the
6 estates of the deceased are being handled
7 correctly?
8 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: We don't
9 have any formal oversight role. The public
10 administrator and the staff of the Public
11 Administrator's Office are city employees.
12 The public administrator is appointed by the
13 surrogate judge, and in Brooklyn there are
14 two surrogates, so they would be appointed by
15 the two surrogates.
16 There have been problems that have
17 plagued that office for a number of years,
18 and there have been audits done by the
19 New York City Comptroller's office, which has
20 jurisdiction and authority to conduct those
21 audits.
22 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you for that,
23 Judge Marks. And speaking of those audits,
24 the Comptroller's office has done, I think,
44
1 recently one in 2021 and another one in 2015.
2 They issued I believe 18 recommendations.
3 That office has not adopted the overwhelming
4 majority of those. Is there any consequence
5 from OCA for that office not complying or not
6 fulfilling its duty as recommended by the
7 audits by the Comptroller's office?
8 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Since I've
9 been in this position, although I have no
10 formal role in the public administrator's
11 offices in Kings County or any other
12 counties, for that matter, I've tried to
13 facilitate disputes and disagreements between
14 surrogates in that court to try to address
15 and get the public administrator to try to
16 address some of those problems.
17 By the way, I believe the current
18 public administrator has announced that he is
19 resigning. So --
20 SENATOR MYRIE: So Judge Marks, I'm
21 sorry, just because my time has expired. So
22 there is no function for a public
23 administrator's office that has been found
24 not to meet the recommendations -- some of
45
1 those recommendations include competitively
2 bidding vendor contracts. They can flout
3 that without consequence from OCA?
4 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: If you look
5 at the relevant statutes, the surrogates
6 themselves have direct oversight, the ability
7 to hire the public administrator and the
8 ability to dismiss the public administrator.
9 And there's been serious disagreement on that
10 topic among the surrogates in that court.
11 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you, Judge.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you,
13 Senator Myrie. We need to do more work on
14 this issue, I agree with you.
15 I'm turning it over to Assemblywoman
16 Weinstein.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We've been
18 joined by Assemblyman Colton.
19 And to chair of the Codes Committee,
20 Assemblyman Dinowitz, for 10 minutes.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Thank you.
22 Good morning, Judge Marks. It is very
23 good to see you.
24 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Good
46
1 morning.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: I have a few
3 different, unrelated questions, but I'm going
4 to talk fast because I want to get all my
5 questions in.
6 So the backlog. I know at least in
7 the Bronx there's not a whole lot of trials
8 going on. There are some, but not a lot.
9 Given two years of this, and a
10 continuing pandemic, in terms of time, how
11 long do you think it will take to clear up
12 the backlog, just the backlog from the
13 pandemic, let alone what we had before the
14 pandemic?
15 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: That's a
16 great question, but a very difficult question
17 to answer.
18 You know, the thinking and the wisdom
19 about civil litigation in particular, but it
20 applies to criminal litigation as well -- and
21 I think, Assemblyman Dinowitz, is your
22 question more focused on the civil term of
23 Supreme Court when you ask that, or is it
24 both?
47
1 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Well, I think
2 it's both. While I'm more familiar with, you
3 know, the goings on on the civil side, the
4 fact is in terms of, you know, really
5 affecting people's lives in an extremely
6 serious way, I think perhaps on the criminal
7 side is what we really need to focus on.
8 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yeah.
9 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. But I think
10 it's both sides.
11 But the conventional wisdom was always
12 that you needed the real and credible threat
13 of a trial -- and this is to the lawyers --
14 to resolve cases, to either settle them on
15 the civil side or to achieve guilty pleas on
16 the criminal side. And that conventional
17 wisdom is still the conventional wisdom, but
18 there have been dispositions and resolutions
19 of many, many cases during the pandemic on
20 the civil side and the criminal side without
21 the realistic threat of -- throughout the
22 pandemic of a robust capacity to try cases.
23 But that's had its limitations. You
24 know, I think alternative dispute resolution,
48
1 which we're committed to and sort of -- we
2 were in the process of institutionalizing
3 that throughout the state as we came into the
4 pandemic in the spring of 2020 -- that can
5 play a very significant role in resolving
6 backlogs. And getting judges actively
7 involved in trying to resolve cases can play
8 an important role.
9 But I'm not going to minimize the
10 importance and utility of trials to resolve
11 cases. And, you know, we have been
12 conducting jury trials. It's a limited
13 number compared to pre-pandemic levels. And
14 I'll mention again the comment to Assemblyman
15 Lavine, which is that if we could get some
16 relief with the six-foot rule, which
17 requires -- makes it so much more difficult
18 to conduct jury trials than under normal
19 circumstances -- if there could be some
20 relief with that.
21 And that's obviously influenced by the
22 circumstances of the pandemic. But if that
23 can happen, you know, we can return to
24 something resembling the normal court system
49
1 that we had pre-pandemic, where the
2 overwhelming percentage of cases get resolved
3 without the necessity of a jury trial, but
4 the jury trial is critically important to
5 achieving dispositions and resolutions of
6 cases.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: I will rely on
8 Dr. Fauci as to whether or not six feet is
9 the right and correct distance. Personally,
10 I'd rather have a larger distance, but okay.
11 On a separate issue, I held a hearing
12 back in October, a Codes Committee hearing,
13 not on the subject of bail reform, but
14 several witnesses decided that was their
15 opportunity to talk about bail reform,
16 including some of the top police people,
17 including then-Commissioner Shea.
18 And I make it a habit of not
19 necessarily believing everything I read in
20 certain newspapers unless -- unless there's a
21 second source, I suppose. But I asked the
22 commissioner -- and I know my colleague
23 Assemblymember Walker will remember this
24 well -- I asked him does he have any data
50
1 that shows that people who are accused of
2 certain offenses and were out without bail
3 then committed the same offense.
4 And he said that it happens rarely. I
5 don't know if that was his exact words, but
6 that was essentially what he said. Meaning
7 that the people who were out were not
8 necessarily committing the same offense
9 again.
10 And I was wondering if you -- I don't
11 know if you would have data on that.
12 Because, you know, reading one thing in some
13 of the newspapers, that all the people that
14 are out without bail are committing crimes,
15 but the data doesn't seem to back that up.
16 And I just would like to know what the
17 reality is.
18 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yes, we
19 have extensive data that's on our website.
20 We worked with the State Division of Criminal
21 Justice Services on this. And I know the
22 DCJS commissioner is testifying, and you
23 should, if you're able to, ask her that
24 question as well.
51
1 But we have extensive data. I can
2 tell you I haven't absorbed it all, it's not
3 sort of on the tip of my brain right now.
4 But I can tell you that there have been
5 people who have been released either on their
6 own recognizance or non-monetary conditions,
7 or for whom bail was set and they posted bail
8 and have been released.
9 There have been a fair number of
10 people who have been arrested while they were
11 released. I mean, the good news on bail
12 reform is that only 14 percent statewide were
13 detained over the period of time we looked
14 at, which means that approximately 200,000
15 people were released. And if you're a
16 proponent of bail reform, that's I think a
17 positive statistic. But at the same time,
18 there have been -- 22 percent of that number
19 were rearrested.
20 Were they rearrested for the same
21 offense for which they were charged, on the
22 pending charge? I can't answer that. But I
23 can tell you that if you have specific
24 questions or queries that you could send us,
52
1 you know, we can answer probably most if not
2 all of the questions that you might have.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: On a separate
4 issue, as you know, I was not happy about
5 the -- I'll call it the firing, for lack of a
6 better word, of the 70-year-old-plus judges
7 at the end of 2020, most of whom or many of
8 whom are back.
9 I'm concerned that this could happen
10 again. And I'm just wondering what future
11 you see in terms of budget and whether we
12 would see a repeat performance of that.
13 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, as I
14 think you know, it was entirely 100 percent
15 driven by what we viewed as very dire budget
16 circumstances that we found ourselves in in
17 the 2020 calendar year.
18 Thankfully, that budget situation
19 turned around. And I want to thank the
20 Legislature for that, because the budget that
21 was approved for the current fiscal year, the
22 one we're still in, allowed us to lift our
23 hiring freeze and undo a number of the strict
24 austerity measures that we imposed, including
53
1 we invited back the judges who because of the
2 budget problem were not certificated.
3 In the fall of 2020 we invited them to
4 reapply. Many of them did. And judges
5 returned as certificated judges and are
6 sitting on the bench handling cases today,
7 which is a great thing.
8 In terms of the future, I can tell you
9 last fall, when the next class of judges were
10 up for certification or recertification, they
11 were all approved. I think it was -- I think
12 it was 27, approximately 27, who were all
13 approved.
14 So to answer your question, I'm not
15 the -- clearly not an economics expert. But
16 from everything I read and hear and people
17 tell me, that the state's economic situation
18 looks pretty rosy for the next few years.
19 And if that's the case, you know, we will
20 continue to have a full and robust
21 certification program.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: I have a few
23 seconds left. You had mentioned earlier that
24 the judges in the system, basically they're
54
1 all vaccinated, or pretty much all. I
2 thought I read -- I mean, shockingly, I
3 thought I read that one of the Court of
4 Appeals judges has refused to be vaccinated
5 and therefore is not appearing in person in
6 court. Am I wrong about that, or is that
7 true?
8 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: You're
9 correct in saying that you read that. I'm
10 reluctant to talk about individual judges
11 because there's an exemption process where
12 you can apply -- either be vaccinated -- and
13 98 percent of the judges across the state
14 have been fully vaccinated. But there's a
15 process to apply for a medical exemption or a
16 religious exemption. And that's a strictly
17 confidential process.
18 But I can tell you that there are a
19 very small number, you could count them on
20 one hand, or part of one hand, who are not in
21 compliance with our program, who either have
22 not provided proof of full vaccination or
23 have not received a religious or a medical
24 exemption. There's a tiny number of judges
55
1 who fall into that category. And hopefully
2 you'll understand why I don't want to
3 identify individual judges by name.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Right. Well,
5 the newspaper took care of that anyway.
6 Anyway, thank you very much,
7 Judge Marks.
8 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Thank you.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
10 much.
11 So there was a little confusion and
12 Assemblymember Dinowitz, the chair of Codes,
13 was given 10 minutes. So I want to make sure
14 that I give my chair of Codes, Jamaal Bailey,
15 the remainder of his 10 minutes. He had
16 three minutes already, so we'll give him
17 another seven minutes, please, Mr. Clock.
18 Thank you.
19 SENATOR BAILEY: Thank you, Madam
20 Chair.
21 Judge Marks, good to see you.
22 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Good to see
23 you.
24 SENATOR BAILEY: Thank you for
56
1 testifying today.
2 To piggyback off of what
3 Assemblymember Dinowitz was talking about
4 regarding the data in relation to bail and
5 securing orders, how was that data collected?
6 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: That data
7 is collected from the state court system's
8 database as well as some of it, particularly
9 rearrest data, comes from the State Division
10 of Criminal Justice Services database.
11 And the statute reflected that by
12 requiring the court system and DCJS to work
13 together to develop data and to post it on
14 our websites.
15 SENATOR BAILEY: Sure.
16 So in terms of the aggregation of that
17 data, how was that aggregated? Is it
18 aggregated based upon offense? Is it
19 aggregated based upon bail eligible and
20 non-bail eligible? How is that data
21 aggregated?
22 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yes, all of
23 the above. It's categorized in a number of
24 ways which we think will be helpful.
57
1 And we added additional data fields
2 because researchers from Vera and John Jay
3 and the center for court innovation were very
4 interested in this data, and we added fields
5 at their request. And we provide it in a
6 format that we think is very user-friendly so
7 that they can do, you know, extensive
8 research and really dig down into this data
9 and draw, you know, whatever conclusions they
10 draw from it.
11 SENATOR BAILEY: Excellent. Because
12 it will be helpful to be able to find out --
13 you know, because there's much ado -- as
14 Senator Hoylman mentioned, maybe certain
15 judges may or may not be flouting the law.
16 And if it was aggregated based upon bail
17 eligibility and non-eligible offenses, I
18 think that would go a long way in helping us
19 determine what judges are in fact not setting
20 bail when they have the ability or
21 discretion, as has been asked.
22 So I think that would be very helpful
23 to do that.
24 Also another point that you mentioned
58
1 in your prior commentary with Assemblymember
2 Dinowitz, do we have data about individuals
3 who pay bail and reoffend? And do we have
4 percentages of that data as well? Is that in
5 the aggregate as well? Because we always --
6 like the conversation is generally about
7 those who are released on bail reform, or
8 based upon what people believe bail reform
9 is. But individuals who pay bail and are
10 out, they often also reoffend, correct?
11 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yes, they
12 do. And there's data on that, and it's
13 categorized and available to whoever is
14 interested.
15 SENATOR BAILEY: Okay, excellent.
16 A question about Raise the Age. You
17 know, when an adolescent is arraigned in a
18 youth part of the criminal court, what
19 criteria are used to determine whether that
20 kid should stay there or be moved to -- be
21 moved to Family Court or be moved to criminal
22 court?
23 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Don't hold
24 me to the precise language, but I'm pretty
59
1 sure there's a presumption that the case
2 would stay -- would go to Family Court. An
3 application would be made by the prosecutor.
4 If the prosecutor would like to see the case
5 transferred over to Family Court, or the
6 attorney for the child would like to see
7 that, there's an application that's made.
8 The prosecutor could argue the case should
9 stay in criminal court; you know, the
10 converse of that. And the precise
11 standard -- I apologize --
12 SENATOR BAILEY: No problem. I just
13 want to get to the heart of it, is that each
14 of these cases are handled on a case-by-case
15 individual basis, correct?
16 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Absolutely.
17 SENATOR BAILEY: And it's not like a
18 blanket policy, right?
19 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Correct.
20 SENATOR BAILEY: So like these
21 individuals, they would know the facts of the
22 specific case better than anybody else
23 because it's individualized, correct?
24 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: It's a
60
1 case-by-case determination, that's right.
2 SENATOR BAILEY: Okay. A question
3 about -- thank you for the questions on that.
4 Questions about 18-B, assigned
5 counsel. Like there's obviously been
6 conversation about it in the media. And do
7 you believe that, you know, a raise in
8 attorney compensation would help alleviate
9 backlogs that we have in the court system?
10 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Absolutely.
11 It's been -- and I know you have a bill on
12 that --
13 SENATOR BAILEY: Yes.
14 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: And thank
15 you. You know, we support what you're trying
16 to do, and thank you for your leadership on
17 this. I think it's been 18 years now, am I
18 correct, since the last increase in the 18-B
19 fees?
20 SENATOR BAILEY: Correct.
21 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: And that's
22 having like a serious, serious impact on the
23 processing of cases. The attorney panels or
24 rosters from which -- these attorneys apply
61
1 and get on rosters and then take assignments
2 to these cases in the criminal courts and in
3 the Family Court. Those rosters are
4 depleted. Fewer and fewer attorneys are able
5 to -- they've concluded they can't afford to
6 take these cases because the rate is so low
7 and there's been no increase in such a long
8 period of time.
9 I would add that prior to the last
10 increase, which I think was 18 years ago, it
11 was a 16-or-17-year delay. Which I remember,
12 actually. And there's got to be a better way
13 to do this. It has a direct impact on delays
14 in the criminal courts and in the Family
15 Court, and it's just something that really
16 must -- it just needs to be done. It's a
17 long time.
18 SENATOR BAILEY: Thank you. I would
19 certainly agree. As you mentioned, there's a
20 piece of legislation that I carry. And
21 understanding that those backlogs could be
22 alleviated significantly and those who are at
23 most risk could be able to receive counsel
24 that is efficient.
62
1 I guess the last question that I'll
2 have is related to diversity in the courts.
3 And you and I have spoken about this I think
4 at every budget hearing since I've been a
5 member of the New York State Senate. And
6 strides have been made in terms of the LEO
7 Program. But in terms of greater diversity,
8 what steps is OCA taking to make sure that we
9 have great diversity, not just in race but in
10 gender, in orientation, in any diverse group?
11 What steps are we taking in OCA to make sure
12 that this is taking place in our court
13 system? And not just on the bench, in terms
14 of court personnel and employees as well.
15 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yeah. No,
16 thank you for that question.
17 There's a lot going on. We're
18 particularly focusing on human resources
19 practices and protocols. We're doing more
20 outreach into the community about
21 opportunities in the court system,
22 particularly when we conduct a civil service
23 test for court officers or court clerks and a
24 lot of the courtroom titles. We're doing
63
1 much more outreach.
2 We are providing services to people
3 who -- it's not just hiring people into the
4 court system, it's promoting people and
5 having a full opportunity for everyone to
6 have a chance of promoting within the court
7 system. And we've organized workshops to
8 help people with their interview skills and
9 resume-building opportunities.
10 We are making it clear to managers
11 that their efforts to diversify the people
12 who work under them will be a factor in the
13 performance evaluation of court managers. So
14 we're taking a number of steps to further
15 diversify our nonjudicial staff in the court
16 system.
17 And in terms of judges, obviously we
18 don't pick the judges, with the exception of
19 Housing Court judges. And I think our record
20 is strong on diversity among Housing Court
21 judges whom we appoint. Administrative
22 judges, a lot of diversity. The
23 administrative judge for the New York City
24 Criminal Court is a person of color. The
64
1 administrative judge for the New York City
2 Civil Court, which includes the Housing
3 Court, is a person of color. The
4 administrative judge for the New York City
5 Family Court is a person of color.
6 Three of four of our deputy chief
7 administrative judges, which is the level
8 below me as the chief administrative judge,
9 three of four are judges of color. So we --
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you, Judge
11 Marks. I'm afraid I'm going to have to cut
12 you off because we are beyond time.
13 I'm going to ask everybody to mute if
14 they're not actually speaking.
15 I apologize, Senator Bailey, I need to
16 also end your questioning.
17 SENATOR BAILEY: I am grateful for the
18 extra time. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank
19 you, Judge Marks.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
21 We've been joined by Senator Phil
22 Boyle, the ranker on Codes; by Senator Pete
23 Oberacker, Senator Sue Serino, and
24 Senator Pat Ritchie.
65
1 And now turning it over to the
2 Assembly.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We've been
4 joined by Assemblyman McDonald,
5 Assemblyman Pretlow.
6 And we go to Assemblyman Weprin, three
7 minutes.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Thank you,
9 Madam Chair.
10 And thank you, Judge Marks, for --
11 once again, I'm glad to see that we're
12 getting back to trials, although slowly.
13 I've had a bill for a number of years
14 to allow for a program of allowing
15 televisions in the courtroom. That bill has
16 been dormant for many years. I've
17 reintroduced the bill. And I think with some
18 of the skepticism in the courts during the
19 pandemic, and the lack of trials, hopefully
20 the return of trials as we get out of COVID,
21 that's something I'd like to see you and OCA
22 look at to restore confidence in trials and
23 in the courtroom post-pandemic.
24 Would you be able to comment on that,
66
1 Judge?
2 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well,
3 personally, and this is just my own
4 opinion -- I don't think we have an
5 institutional opinion or position on cameras
6 in the courts, but personally I favor cameras
7 in the courts.
8 I remember the statute going back a
9 number of years that would come up for sunset
10 every few years and would be renewed, and
11 then ultimately was permitted to sunset. And
12 there's been no formal authorization for
13 camera coverage of court proceedings in New
14 York since then, and it's been a long time.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Yeah, that was
16 my -- my late father is the one that
17 sponsored that original bill, Sol Weprin. So
18 I'd like to see it restored.
19 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yeah. I
20 can -- again, I'm speaking for myself, not
21 for the institution, but I think the more
22 sunlight you can shine on court proceedings,
23 the better that is.
24 The public -- it's difficult to go to
67
1 the courthouse and sit there, for people who
2 work, have childcare or other
3 responsibilities, and if there was more --
4 particularly all these remote judicial
5 proceedings that we've been conducting during
6 the pandemic, I don't know if that supports,
7 I'd have to think about that, whether that
8 supports cameras in the courts for the more
9 public viewing of court proceedings. But,
10 you know, we need to be as responsive a
11 governmental institution as we can possibly
12 be, and I personally believe that audiovisual
13 coverage of court proceedings promotes
14 responsiveness and accountability.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Yeah, I think it
16 particularly may be more relevant
17 post-pandemic as we're restoring trials and
18 the public is reenergizing.
19 So thank you.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go now to
21 the Senate.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
23 much.
24 And we're actually going to jump to
68
1 the ranker for Codes, Senator Phil Boyle.
2 Are you there, Senator Boyle? Well,
3 perhaps we're not right now. Senator Boyle,
4 are you there? Well, we're going to come
5 back to Senator Boyle next round, and we're
6 going to go instead to Senator Andrew
7 Gounardes.
8 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Thank you very
9 much, Senator Krueger.
10 Hello, Judge Marks.
11 I really have just two questions. One
12 you kind of touched on a little bit in terms
13 of the backlog of cases. I'd like to hear
14 your thoughts specifically in response to
15 what the mayor had called for yesterday,
16 citing the 4,000 gun cases that are still
17 pending in our criminal trials. And
18 understanding the issues with spacing and the
19 logistics of trying to get back to normal, he
20 had talked about prioritizing a lot of these
21 cases. And I would just love to hear you
22 talk more about -- in response to what the
23 mayor was asking the courts to undertake as
24 part of this fight against gun violence.
69
1 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: We support
2 what the mayor announced yesterday. There
3 were discussions that took place before the
4 announcement with respect to the courts, and
5 we're fully supportive.
6 We have an existing gun case
7 initiative with designated judges handling
8 gun cases. The goal is to be able to conduct
9 more suppression hearings, which is the fancy
10 name for a court proceeding that determines
11 whether -- typically in a gun case, whether
12 the gun was constitutionally seized from the
13 accused. And so our goal is to conduct more
14 of those suppression hearings. Which
15 presents fewer pandemic challenges than a
16 jury trial does because it's just a hearing
17 before the judge with far fewer people in the
18 courtroom.
19 And with the capacity to conduct more
20 suppression hearings, that will lead to
21 quicker resolution of cases even if the case
22 needs to go to trial.
23 But the mayor also called for
24 something which I mentioned a few minutes
70
1 ago, which is relaxing or reducing the
2 six-foot social distancing protocol, which I
3 think it was Assemblyman Lavine described
4 very accurately requires multiple courtrooms
5 to be able to try before a jury a single
6 criminal case. And we're in discussion with
7 the public health authorities about the
8 possibility of being able to do that.
9 So in terms of being able to conduct
10 more trials and applying more resources to
11 that goal, we fully support what the mayor
12 announced yesterday.
13 SENATOR GOUNARDES: I appreciate that.
14 Thank you very much, Judge.
15 And my second question is the
16 Executive Budget is proposing to cut
17 $86 million in pension contributions under
18 general state charges, mostly because a lot
19 of the pension obligations have been
20 fulfilled last year, as well as the growth of
21 employees in the Tier 6 system.
22 In my former capacity as chairman of
23 the Civil Service Committee, we've heard a
24 lot of issues about the difficulty in
71
1 recruiting and retaining state workers
2 because of the pension benefits that are
3 under Tier 6. As you are looking to fill in
4 some of the open vacancies you have, both
5 pre-pandemic and because of the pandemic,
6 what challenges do you think you're facing
7 because of the benefits package that we are
8 now currently offering state employees?
9 How does that affect your ability to
10 fully staff up your department's operations?
11 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, it's
12 a good question.
13 I think, you know, in general our
14 benefits in state government -- you know, and
15 the Judiciary is part of the civil service
16 benefit structure that the executive
17 branch -- particularly health insurance that
18 they offer, and it's pretty good, the health
19 insurance benefits. It could always be
20 better, but it's pretty good, particularly
21 compared to other large organizations
22 including, I think, in the private sector to
23 some extent.
24 So does the Tier 6, which obviously is
72
1 less generous than the lower tiers, does that
2 discourage people from looking at employment
3 within the court system? You know, that's
4 something I'd have to take a look at that and
5 ask our HR people, and I could get back to
6 you.
7 SENATOR GOUNARDES: That would be
8 great. Thank you.
9 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: But there's
10 no question it's a less generous pension
11 benefit than some of the other tiers.
12 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Thank you.
13 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So we go to our
15 ranker on Ways and Means, Assemblyman Ra, for
16 five minutes.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you, Chair.
18 Good morning, Judge Marks. Good to
19 see you again.
20 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Good
21 morning.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Just to go back to
23 the bail reform conversation, as people know,
24 you know, right now only in qualifying
73
1 offenses is it legally permissible for judges
2 to exercise really any form of discretion,
3 and it's really only when the judge finds
4 bail or remand to be the least restrictive
5 means necessary to ensure court attendance.
6 You know, in light of yesterday's plan
7 that was put out by Mayor Adams of New York
8 City, do you have any thoughts on his
9 statement basically asking for discretion for
10 your judges to consider dangerousness?
11 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, I
12 haven't seen the details of the mayor's
13 proposal. He did call for that. I can tell
14 you -- and, you know, to be fair about this,
15 many judges, if not most of our judges who
16 sit on criminal cases, would like more
17 discretion in making determinations about
18 bail and release of people accused of crimes.
19 I mean, we don't have a formal
20 proposal. But judges as a group, I think
21 it's fair to say -- you know, I'm not
22 speaking for a hundred percent of our judges,
23 and I'm not sure what percentage I am
24 speaking for, but I think it's fair to say
74
1 that individual judges would like to have
2 more discretion in making this decision and
3 feel that they would be able to fairly and
4 effectively make decisions on a case-by-case
5 basis if they had more discretion.
6 I believe that's a fair
7 characterization of how most judges who sit
8 on criminal cases in the State Unified Court
9 System feel.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
11 Could whoever is unmuted and typing,
12 please mute? It's coming through the feed.
13 A totally different topic with regard
14 to, you know, backlogs in eviction
15 proceedings and all that with the eviction
16 moratorium now having expired. And one of
17 the issues obviously is that despite that,
18 there is the Emergency Rental Assistance
19 Program, and that does provide protection for
20 an applicant, you know, with a case,
21 requiring that to be reopened.
22 How is OCA handling that, A, in terms
23 of knowing -- do you have a number of how
24 many cases are currently stayed as a result
75
1 of somebody applying for the Emergency Rental
2 Assistance Program?
3 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Off the top
4 of my head, I don't know the number, but I've
5 seen the number. OTDA, you know, the
6 executive branch agency that's administering
7 the ERAP program, has that information. We
8 can get it for you or you could get it
9 directly from them.
10 But, you know, there is number of
11 pending applications for ERAP grants. And if
12 there are eviction cases pending for all of
13 those people who have applied -- and there
14 isn't necessarily an eviction case pending in
15 all of those situations. But if there is, as
16 you know, the eviction proceeding is stayed.
17 And we have data that the OTDA has
18 shared with us on, you know, listing people
19 who have applied. And that information is
20 used in Housing Courts throughout the state
21 when cases are calendared, which they have
22 been all along and will continue to be
23 calendared now that the moratorium has been
24 lifted. And those lists are referenced by
76
1 courts to ensure that someone who has a
2 pending application is not evicted, that
3 their case is stayed.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: And with regard to
5 just ones that do have filed eviction
6 proceedings, now with the -- taking out ERAP,
7 assuming that's not a factor in a case, are
8 those being automatically recalendared? Or
9 is it on the litigant to come and make an
10 application to recalendar those matters that
11 had been, you know, subject to the eviction
12 moratorium?
13 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: The courts
14 are recalendaring cases themselves.
15 Particularly in the New York City Housing
16 Court, which has, as I mentioned before, the
17 vast lion's share of pending eviction cases,
18 the court itself is calendaring cases -- you
19 know, generally speaking, in chronological
20 fashion, meaning the older cases are being
21 calendared. That's sort of -- that's the
22 process.
23 So the courts are calendaring cases,
24 to answer your question.
77
1 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
2 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
4 Okay, now we're going to try again
5 Senator Phil Boyle, ranker on Codes.
6 SENATOR BOYLE: Thank you,
7 Madam Chair. And thank you, Your Honor.
8 Just a quick question. Obviously on
9 Long Island we've had a long history of
10 overburdened courts. And I'm asking you what
11 are the steps that you're taking to advance
12 the creation of a Fifth Department appellate
13 division for the Long Island region?
14 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well,
15 interesting you raise that, because in our
16 proposed constitutional restructuring of the
17 trial courts -- which focuses mainly on the
18 trial courts. We have 11 trial courts in
19 New York; it's far more than any other state
20 in the country has. And we're trying to get
21 approval to consolidate and reduce the number
22 of trial courts. But within that proposal,
23 that issue was addressed, the Fifth
24 Department.
78
1 You're in the Second Judicial
2 Department. The four departments of the
3 Appellate Division were created I think in
4 1898, back when there was roughly equal
5 population among the four. And that's
6 changed drastically. The Second Department
7 has over 50 percent of the population of the
8 state within its jurisdiction, which is a
9 problem.
10 And our constitutional proposal
11 addresses not only consolidating the trial
12 courts, but would specifically give the
13 Legislature, I think every five years or
14 every 10 years -- I apologize, I don't
15 remember the exact time period -- but would
16 give the Legislature authority by statute --
17 the Constitution would be amended to give the
18 Legislature the authority, every five years
19 or 10 years, whatever it is, to determine the
20 number of appellate judicial departments.
21 So it's in that proposal.
22 SENATOR BOYLE: Thank you. I hope
23 that the need for this department is not held
24 up by other reforms that may have been talked
79
1 about for a long time.
2 But thank you very much, Judge. And
3 thank you, Madam Chair.
4 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
6 Assemblywoman.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes, so now we
8 go -- next up is Assemblywoman Rajkumar,
9 followed by Assemblywoman Walker.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN RAJKUMAR: Thank you.
11 Good morning, Your Honor.
12 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Good
13 morning.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN RAJKUMAR: I want to
15 talk to you about the severe backlog of cases
16 in our courts. As is often said, justice
17 delayed is justice denied. And yet around
18 our state, as has been mentioned, courts are
19 backlogged severely with cases. The district
20 attorney of Onondaga County actually
21 estimated that clearing his backlog will take
22 18 months to two years.
23 Now, part of the reason may be delays
24 related to COVID-19. And OCA I know limits
80
1 the number of trials conducted at once. But
2 I'm very interested in last year's study by
3 the Center for Court Innovation, which
4 partnered with you at OCA. And that study
5 concluded that the actual caseload is not the
6 real driver of delays; the culprit is
7 inefficient calendar management and judges
8 setting lengthy adjournments without
9 considering whether parties could complete
10 the tasks sooner in between court
11 appearances.
12 And in 2019, the Center for Court
13 Innovation managed to launch a study with
14 you, and in it they increased the percentage
15 of cases disposed in six months by
16 11 percent.
17 So could you please speak more about
18 how OCA can resolve this backlog of cases in
19 an expeditious manner, and how we can help
20 make that happen?
21 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well,
22 again, there's a number of steps to be taken.
23 I've mentioned some of them.
24 I think first and foremost there's
81
1 wide agreement that we have to be able to
2 conduct more trials, jury trials in
3 particular. And under the social distancing
4 protocols currently in place, it's very hard
5 to do that, as we discussed -- as I discussed
6 with a previous colleague of yours.
7 So more jury trials. Broader use of
8 alternative dispute resolution, where a
9 judge, a court attorney, a community dispute
10 resolution center, a private mediator gets
11 the parties together and tries to mediate a
12 settlement --
13 (Zoom interruption.)
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Somebody please
15 mute.
16 SENATOR RIVERA: Brad. Brad.
17 It's Brad Hoylman. There you go.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, thank you.
19 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: So greater
20 use of ADR. Refocused attention
21 on individual cases, inventories and -- this
22 is a component of the Chief Judge's
23 Excellence Initiative. Which I should say,
24 by the way, the pandemic has presented real
82
1 challenges to resolving more cases in
2 attacking backlogs. But the Excellence
3 Initiative, which was in effect from 2016 to
4 2020, eliminated backlogs in many courts
5 throughout the state and greatly reduced
6 backlogs in other parts of the state. And
7 but for that, the situation would be even
8 more challenging today.
9 As to the Center for Court Innovation,
10 yes, we worked with them and supported that
11 pilot program which tried to reduce the time
12 between court appearances and made efforts to
13 ensure that the lawyers performed the tasks
14 that they were supposed to perform between
15 court appearances. And that court
16 appearances be meaningful, that something
17 happened at every court appearance in a case
18 to move the case forward.
19 We worked with them on that pilot
20 program, and it was successful -- I don't
21 want to say it was dramatically successful,
22 but it was successful in reducing the age of
23 cases and promoting the earlier disposition
24 of cases. And we've been in discussions with
83
1 them to replicate that approach in other
2 courts, which is something that we would like
3 to do.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay, the time is
5 up. I'm going to take it back for the
6 Senate.
7 Senator Sepúlveda.
8 SENATOR SEPÚLVEDA: Good morning,
9 everyone. Good morning, Judge.
10 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Good
11 morning.
12 SENATOR SEPÚLVEDA: You know, we've
13 had discussions about diversity in the courts
14 over the years. When you talked about the
15 merger plan, the first information I received
16 about it indicated a lot of traditional law
17 firms, but very few -- law firms and law
18 groups, like the Bar Association and so
19 forth, but not many law groups, bar
20 associations of color were included in the
21 initial consideration.
22 Has that changed in the development of
23 this issue of court merger? Which I believe
24 will have a deleterious effect on
84
1 representation of color in the courts.
2 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, we
3 just zoomed our efforts, which were on the
4 back burner since the pandemic for obvious
5 reason -- but we returned our attention back
6 to the court simplification proposal, and we
7 are reaching out to more groups and will be
8 reaching out to and seeking input from
9 affinity bar associations, for example.
10 That's something that there wasn't enough
11 opportunity to do a few years ago when we
12 last made a push, because of the pandemic,
13 which put a halt to the pursuit of the
14 proposal.
15 But you're absolutely right, the
16 affinity bar associations in particular
17 raised some concerns. And those are concerns
18 that, you know, realistically will have to be
19 addressed if this thing is going to progress.
20 SENATOR SEPÚLVEDA: Judge, you know,
21 again, we'll be battling that when the time
22 comes. But I just wanted you to be aware of
23 my feelings about the entire merger
24 discussion.
85
1 Any particular reason why you only
2 have two Latinos in positions of either
3 policy or management in the entire OCA
4 system? You have an administrative judge in
5 the Bronx, and I believe you have Judge
6 Rolando Acosta in the Appellate Division. No
7 other judges exist in the entire OCA. Is
8 there any particular reason for that?
9 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: There's no
10 reason. We did lose three Hispanic judges
11 to -- Judge Jeanette Ruiz, who was the
12 administrative judge for the New York City
13 Family Court, retired. Julio Rodriguez, in
14 your county, who was the administrative judge
15 in the Civil Term in the Bronx, went to the
16 Appellate Division. And Judge Joe Zayes, who
17 was our administrative judge for the criminal
18 term in Queens Supreme Court, went to the
19 Appellate Division.
20 So the -- I agree with you, it's
21 difficult sometimes, you know, in terms of
22 who applies and who has the best
23 qualifications for the job. And by the way,
24 these administrative jobs are critically
86
1 important these days, because our focus is so
2 much on court operations and frontline court
3 activity. So --
4 SENATOR SEPÚLVEDA: Judge, I'm sorry
5 to interrupt you, because I have a really
6 critical question also on HP actions in
7 Housing Court. You have multiple courts for
8 holdover proceedings and nonpayment
9 proceedings, but you only have one part
10 that's set aside for HP actions. In light of
11 the fires and the explosions and everything
12 that's happening in our county, is there any
13 particular reason why we don't increase the
14 number of HP parts so that we can address
15 these issues and have less fatalities and
16 tragedies like we had?
17 And again, I apologize for cutting you
18 off, but my time is limited.
19 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: No, no, no
20 problem at all. You're referring to Bronx?
21 SENATOR SEPÚLVEDA: I'm referring to
22 most of the court systems, they only have one
23 HP part --
24 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: In each
87
1 county --
2 SENATOR SEPÚLVEDA: -- that handles --
3 in case people don't know, they handle the
4 complaints about building violations and so
5 forth.
6 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Right.
7 I can promise you we'll look at that.
8 We'll look at the inventories in those parts
9 and if the inventories are preventing those
10 courts from resolving those cases efficiently
11 and fairly, we can make changes.
12 But frankly it's the first I've heard
13 about this, but I promise you we'll look into
14 it. And if you're right, we can make
15 changes.
16 SENATOR SEPÚLVEDA: Hopefully we can
17 have a discussion soon.
18 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Sure.
19 Thank you.
20 SENATOR SEPÚLVEDA: Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I do have to cut
22 you off.
23 But Judge, I suspect that if we took a
24 hand-raising here, you would find many
88
1 legislators from New York City agree with
2 that last recommendation. So just raise your
3 hand if you agree with Senator Sepúlveda.
4 I thought so. So yes, please, Judge,
5 let's all look into that.
6 SENATOR SEPÚLVEDA: And this is just a
7 question that Senator Gustavo Rivera and I
8 were talking about, so I don't want to get
9 all the credit for raising the issue.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Fine. Well,
11 thank you, everyone.
12 Assemblywoman Weinstein.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
14 Assemblywoman Walker.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Thank you. So
16 in your opening remarks, Judge, you mentioned
17 a finding of systemic racism, inherent bias
18 and discrimination that are found in the
19 court system. So I guess my question is, is
20 there a particular court such as criminal
21 court where those findings seem to be more
22 prevalent than others? As one note.
23 And on the other note is if we allow
24 for the judges to have discrimination in
89
1 their analysis of dangerousness, do you
2 believe that those inherent biases,
3 discrimination and systemic racism will and
4 can have an impact on a determination of
5 dangerousness for the people who we have
6 jurisdiction over?
7 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Okay, two
8 questions. Let me answer the first question
9 first.
10 I mentioned in my opening remarks that
11 the Chief Judge appointed Jeh Johnson to
12 conduct a sort of a top-to-bottom evaluation
13 of are we doing a good enough job in the
14 court system of combating and preventing
15 institutional racism and bias. And he
16 concluded, and I think you're following up
17 your question on his conclusion that there
18 are two systems of justice in New York, one
19 for the economically disadvantaged, people of
20 color, which would include --
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Thank you,
22 Judge. Judge, I'm just asking whether or not
23 the biases that were found have the ability
24 to be utilized in assertation of
90
1 dangerousness in the discretion that's being
2 requested for people with respect to bail
3 reform.
4 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: I would
5 hope not. But do people have biases and do
6 judges have biases? They probably do. But
7 they should work to ensure that they don't
8 have biases --
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Thank you.
10 Thank you.
11 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Okay.
12 You're welcome.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: If there's any
14 accountability or indictment -- is there any
15 accountability or indictment on judges for
16 exercising these biases and/or
17 discriminations?
18 And if so, I'd like to hear more about
19 those. Because I did notice that it was
20 cited that there was bias and discrimination
21 that was alleged against a judge in
22 Surrogate's Court prior to her removal. So
23 is there any accountability and/or indictment
24 with respect to those judges?
91
1 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: The -- I
2 mean, I don't want to get into great detail
3 about the example you raised, but that --
4 that is an extreme situation that was brought
5 to our attention, and we addressed it --
6 after investigating it, we addressed it
7 immediately.
8 But on an overall level, if people --
9 people in the court system have biases and
10 those biases impact decisions that they make,
11 judges in particular.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Thank you,
13 Judge. Last moment before I have to end.
14 So then the information that you cited
15 with respect to DCJS may not be available
16 prior to bail reform was implemented. The
17 Mayor's Office of Criminal Justice also has
18 data that contradicts the data that you just
19 mentioned, and I'd like to discuss more with
20 you about what happens with bail reform
21 rearrests prior to bail reform and after bail
22 reform, so that we are comparing apples to
23 apples.
24 Thank you, Honorable Chairwomen.
92
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to the
2 Senate.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
4 And we go to Senator Diane Savino.
5 SENATOR SAVINO: Thank you, Senator
6 Krueger.
7 Good to see you, Judge Marks. I only
8 have three minutes, so I'm going to try and
9 be brief because I have two areas that I just
10 want to mention.
11 One of course is following up on this
12 continuing public discussion around bail
13 reform. As you know, we undertook three
14 years ago to change what was inherently a
15 discriminatory process to begin with. But as
16 legislators, we write laws, somebody
17 implements them, and then it's up to you good
18 folks in the judiciary to interpret them.
19 And I think it's important that from
20 time to time we hear from judges as to
21 whether or not we've drafted a confusing
22 statute. And for those of you who think that
23 we did or we didn't, I would suggest you read
24 an op-ed in the January 21st Daily News
93
1 written by a criminal court judge from the
2 Bronx, Jeff Zimmerman, who in fact says that
3 what we have handed them is an incredibly
4 complicated, confusing statute.
5 On the one hand, we are the only state
6 in the country that says we utilize bail for
7 the sole purpose of making sure defendants
8 return to court. Every other state allows
9 the consideration of dangerousness. At the
10 same time, we amended the statute a short
11 time later to delineate certain crimes that
12 the Legislature determined were potentially
13 violent.
14 So we've given them a confusing
15 statute, and I think it's important that be
16 part of the public debate. So I just want to
17 leave that there. I suggest we start to talk
18 to judges more frequently about what we are
19 asking them to do so we have a clear statute
20 that people can apply.
21 On to the other issue I want to talk
22 to you about. I notice you're not asking for
23 money to cover the cost of labor contracts.
24 You do have some outstanding ones. And
94
1 you're in the middle of negotiations, I
2 believe, with the Superior Court Officers
3 Association -- which is not going well, from
4 what I understand, because there's not enough
5 money at the table.
6 So can you talk to me about why you're
7 not seeking more money, since we seem to be
8 printing it in the basement right now.
9 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, we
10 are seeking -- we have money in the
11 current-year budget to pay for a percentage
12 salary increase this year, and we're putting
13 money in our proposed budget for the next
14 year to pay for percentage salary increases
15 for our represented employees --
16 SENATOR SAVINO: Not to cut you off,
17 but my understanding is the percentage you're
18 offering is certainly not something they're
19 willing to accept. Again, that's a labor
20 negotiation that you're in the middle of.
21 But if we go back to -- an earlier
22 questioner was talking about recruiting and
23 retaining people and the problems you're
24 having recruiting people to work in the court
95
1 system. You might want to aim higher,
2 Judge Marks. So perhaps a higher percentage
3 increase would assist you in recruiting
4 people, retaining them, and keeping the
5 courts operational.
6 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, I
7 appreciate that comment.
8 SENATOR SAVINO: (Laughing.) Thank
9 you.
10 I'm done. I yield my 30 seconds.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
12 much, Senator Savino.
13 Assemblywoman Weinstein.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We've been
15 joined by -- a little while ago by
16 Assemblyman Aubry, and we go to
17 Assemblywoman Mitaynes.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: Hi. Thank
19 you very much.
20 My question is more around Housing
21 Court. And I'm actually from Brooklyn. But
22 so just wanting to piggyback on the HP cases.
23 We have various ones that we're aware of that
24 are trying to be filed and they're not moving
96
1 forward. And our understanding is that there
2 is a backlog because they don't have
3 sufficient staff to process them. So I just
4 wanted to throw that out there.
5 But also you talked about the upgrade
6 and expanding the court's technology capacity
7 to be able to facilitate virtual court
8 appearances. So my question is what are you
9 doing with respect to those people that might
10 not have access to technology or own a
11 computer at home? What does the judicial
12 process look like for them? And please
13 describe at what point in the judicial
14 process this technological literacy is
15 evaluated and who conducts such evaluations
16 and how such evaluation changes and
17 determines the process that they go through.
18 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, first
19 let me say our goal is to return to as high a
20 level of in-person proceedings as we can,
21 because the courts are an in-person business.
22 And that's our goal, to be able to conduct as
23 many in-person proceedings as possible.
24 However, there will be a role for
97
1 virtual proceedings going forward. And you
2 highlight an important issue about not
3 everyone has the knowhow or the
4 technology and the equipment to participate
5 in virtual court proceedings. It's a real
6 problem. You're absolutely right.
7 And we -- there are a number of ways
8 to address it, including installing
9 technology in the community so that people
10 can go to a community organization or a house
11 of worship, perhaps, and use the technology
12 there to be able to participate in court
13 proceedings. And that's an initiative that
14 we are very interested in pursuing, and will
15 pursue, because hopefully, you know, the
16 pandemic will go away one of these days for
17 good, or largely go away for good, and we can
18 go back to more normal proceedings in
19 courthouses, which would mean in-person
20 proceedings.
21 But we can't predict for sure that
22 that will happen, so we may have to rely on
23 virtual proceedings for some time longer.
24 And even if we go back to normal, there could
98
1 still be a value for people, in the example
2 that I'm raising, who rather than have to
3 travel all the way to the central courthouse,
4 can participate by going to a nonprofit
5 organization in their community which --
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: That sounds
7 great. And I understand -- sorry -- that
8 this is for the future. But what are you
9 doing right now to address those issues?
10 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, in
11 Family Court, which has a significant number
12 unfortunately of unrepresented litigants,
13 people who come to court without a lawyer,
14 the telephone, believe it or not, it's not
15 ideal, but the telephone has been found to be
16 helpful and useful. And, you know, more
17 people have phones than have Surface Pros or,
18 you know, fancy computer equipment.
19 So it's low-tech, but the phone has
20 served its purpose in a court like Family
21 Court. So on an immediate basis, that's not
22 ideal, it's not perfect, but it's sort of a
23 patchwork approach that we can do
24 immediately.
99
1 But in the long term, where we can
2 think, you know, with more vision, technology
3 in the community could be of great benefit to
4 people who don't have equipment to
5 participate in virtual proceedings or the
6 knowhow or the computer savviness to be able
7 to do that.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Back to the
9 Senate.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
11 much.
12 Senator Palumbo for five minutes,
13 ranker on Codes.
14 SENATOR PALUMBO: Thank you,
15 Madam Chair.
16 Nice to see you, Judge Marks. How are
17 you?
18 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Very good,
19 thank you.
20 SENATOR PALUMBO: Good to see you
21 again.
22 And just by way of follow-up on what
23 you were just discussing, do you think that
24 some form of hybrid may be here to stay?
100
1 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yes,
2 absolutely. Because the crowded courtrooms,
3 they're called "cattle calls" by some people,
4 where 150 people are in a courtroom, you
5 know, at 9:30 in the morning, are really a
6 thing of the past.
7 And you know, there are routine court
8 appearances for scheduling and, you know,
9 where routine decisions have to be made, can
10 absolutely be conducted virtually and will be
11 in the future. It's more efficient for
12 everyone, it saves money for lawyers for
13 their clients. It can be more efficient for
14 the judges. And, you know, absolutely
15 there's a permanent place for technology in
16 virtual court proceedings in the court system
17 of the future.
18 SENATOR PALUMBO: Sure. Sure. And in
19 that regard, I came in and I missed some of
20 the conversation with Chairman Bailey. But
21 on the 18-B panel, are you seeking additional
22 funding to increase their rates?
23 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: We don't
24 have our own bill, but we strongly, strongly
101
1 support increasing the assigned counsel fees.
2 It's been --
3 SENATOR PALUMBO: I've had many
4 friends who --
5 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yeah.
6 SENATOR PALUMBO: Yeah, I'm sorry.
7 I've just had many friends who have turned
8 down cases who are, you know, the best
9 lawyers in the room, they're there every day,
10 but they just can't make a living. And
11 unfortunately the indigent individuals are
12 not getting, you know, excellent
13 representation that they otherwise would have
14 had. So --
15 (Overtalk.)
16 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: I'm sorry.
17 Because there are fewer lawyers willing to
18 serve on these rosters and panels, it's
19 leading to -- we discussed this earlier --
20 it's leading to further delays in the
21 processing of cases.
22 SENATOR PALUMBO: Sure. Sure, I
23 agree.
24 On to the public protection side, and
102
1 really just on the criminal justice side of
2 the conversation. And you indicated earlier
3 that there was a conclusion that there were
4 some -- that it was socioeconomic, as far as
5 the discrimination that you indicated, or was
6 it based on race or something else? Tell me
7 a little more about that data, if you can.
8 Fairly quickly, I'm running out of time,
9 please.
10 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yeah, it
11 wasn't so much in data. It flows from the
12 study and report of our special advisor on
13 equal justice in the courts, Jeh Johnson, who
14 concluded that the courts that tend to
15 service poor people, people of color from
16 economically disadvantaged communities, are
17 more crowded, have fewer resources, and
18 struggle more than the courts that service,
19 you know, people of means or people who can
20 afford to hire a lawyer.
21 And that was an observation made which
22 we accept and embrace as the reality, and
23 it's a problem that needs to be addressed.
24 SENATOR PALUMBO: Sure. And do you
103
1 have a demographic of the judiciary itself?
2 Because I know there have been many positions
3 taken by some members of the Legislature as
4 well that the bench itself is inherently
5 racist. But I'm just curious as to the
6 demographics of the judiciary themselves. Do
7 you have that?
8 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Absolutely.
9 Yes.
10 SENATOR PALUMBO: Can you tell me a
11 rough percentage as to what that would be?
12 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: I can tell
13 you that the percentage of judges of color is
14 less than the percentage of people of color
15 in the state at large. I don't have the
16 exact numbers handy, but of course we can get
17 you that.
18 SENATOR PALUMBO: That would be great.
19 Thank you, Your Honor.
20 And regarding, you know, there's --
21 just as discussed by Senator Savino as well,
22 that there's some concern about the clarity,
23 the results of the criminal justice reforms
24 that have been implemented in recent years,
104
1 do you have any numbers on people who are
2 released pursuant to that program who have
3 actually been rearrested or reoffended?
4 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yes.
5 SENATOR PALUMBO: I know there's
6 something -- I believe the new county
7 executive in Nassau County is asking his
8 police to keep track of that. Do you have
9 any numbers in that regard?
10 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yeah, we
11 have detailed information that -- data that
12 the court system collects and that the State
13 Division of Criminal Justice Services
14 collects, and we have detailed data on that
15 point.
16 SENATOR PALUMBO: Great. And if you
17 wouldn't mind forwarding that to me as well,
18 that would be terrific.
19 And lastly, with 8 seconds to go, do
20 you have any comments with regard to allowing
21 judges to have discretion of some kind?
22 because we could just have a computer sit on
23 the bench if we're not going to allow judges
24 to actually exercise discretion, in my
105
1 opinion.
2 But do you have any opinion in that
3 regard as to whether or not that's something
4 we should be considering on the policy side?
5 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: What I can
6 tell you is judges as a group -- and I can't
7 be certain that I speak for 100 percent of
8 the judges -- but judges as a group who
9 handle criminal cases would favor having more
10 discretion to make these decisions.
11 SENATOR PALUMBO: Thank you again,
12 Your Honor. Nice to see you.
13 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
15 Chair Weinstein.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes, we go to
17 Assemblyman Lawler. I believe he's back from
18 his committee. Yes, there he is.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: Thank you,
20 Madam Chair.
21 And Your Honor, good to see you. I
22 apologize, I was on a committee meeting, so I
23 may have missed some of your answers. So
24 just bear with me if I ask something that
106
1 you've already answered.
2 But yesterday Mayor Adams released a
3 plan to try and combat gun violence in the
4 City of New York, and part of that plan was
5 allowing judges to consider a dangerousness
6 standard. I think that has been one of the
7 issues -- and my colleague just touched on
8 it, with judicial discretion -- that has been
9 one of the major concerns of those who have
10 been opposed to some of the bail reform
11 changes.
12 New Jersey implemented bail reform
13 around the same time that we did, but they
14 allowed for a dangerousness standard and
15 allowed judges to consider whether or not the
16 public safety was at risk. New York State is
17 the only state in the country that does not
18 allow for a dangerousness standard under
19 these previous laws.
20 So I know you briefly elaborated on it
21 just now. I think it really warrants a more
22 thorough response, with all due respect. I
23 think the mayor of the City of New York, the
24 new mayor, has inherited quite a problem when
107
1 it comes to a rising level of crime, a rising
2 level of gun violence in the City of New
3 York. He is asking and imploring all of us
4 to act with respect to giving judges judicial
5 discretion. And so I'd really like to hear
6 from you, you know, why New York State is the
7 only state that does not allow it and whether
8 or not you think it's warranted.
9 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, I
10 can't answer why that is, but I can -- the
11 answer I can give you is that judges as a
12 group favor having more discretion. You
13 know, that's -- this is what they're trained
14 to do, they're trained to make assessments,
15 to evaluate facts and circumstances, to
16 achieve a fair result.
17 And we support them, you know, we
18 train judges, we provide them with assistance
19 and resources to be able to do their job as
20 best they can. And that judges as a group,
21 judges who handle criminal cases, would favor
22 having more discretion.
23 Now, having said that, are they able
24 to carry out their duties and their functions
108
1 under the current bail reform legislation?
2 Yes, absolutely, they're able to perform
3 their responsibilities.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: Your Honor, do
5 you believe -- and I'm sorry to cut you off,
6 I'm just running out of time. Do you believe
7 that the evidence and prior criminal history
8 should weigh in the decision with respect to
9 bail?
10 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Do I
11 believe that? I don't think my own
12 individual opinion is what matters.
13 But I can report to you that as a
14 group, it's fair to say that judges feel that
15 way, yes.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: Okay. Thank you
17 very much.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
20 Senator Kevin Thomas.
21 SENATOR THOMAS: Thank you,
22 Chair Krueger.
23 And good morning, Judge. Thank you
24 for joining us once again.
109
1 I wanted to talk about Article 81
2 guardianships. As you know, this is under
3 the New York Mental Health Law, where the
4 judges make a decision as to whether this
5 individual has capacity. So OCA has not made
6 any efforts to fully or consistently fund
7 guardianship programs. OCA has relied for a
8 long time on volunteer guardians, usually
9 attorneys. But as you know, these cases are
10 intensive and time-consuming.
11 We know there's a critical need for
12 guardians here on Long Island and throughout
13 the state. And OCA has administered a pilot
14 program on Long Island that was funded by the
15 Legislature since 2018, but that funding is
16 always tied up in bureaucracy, going through
17 other agencies before reaching OCA, who then
18 distributes the funds to local organizations
19 who provide guardians.
20 Why has OCA not requested funds
21 through the budget in order to fund this
22 critical program and streamline the money to
23 get it out quicker?
24 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, let
110
1 me say I agree with you that this is a
2 problem, that the population is aging, as
3 everyone knows, and older people often are
4 not able to manage their day-to-day personal
5 affairs and/or their finances. And ideally
6 there's a relative or a close friend who can
7 step in to do that, but that's not always the
8 case, so that courts have to appoint someone
9 off a list to serve as guardian. And if
10 there's --
11 SENATOR THOMAS: But, Judge, why
12 hasn't OCA asked for funding through the
13 budget for this?
14 Like I get it, we know there's a huge
15 need. By why hasn't OCA asked for money to
16 fund these programs?
17 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, is
18 that a -- we could have a discussion about
19 this, and we should, because this is the
20 first time I think we've talked about it.
21 We've talked about other issues, but I don't
22 know that we've ever discussed this issue.
23 SENATOR THOMAS: Okay. Would you --
24 would you support a statewide program through
111
1 the budget for guardianship?
2 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: I think we
3 would have to discuss who -- what is the
4 right organization or entity to administer a
5 program like that. Is it the county social
6 service agency? Is it a state social service
7 agency? Or is it the court system?
8 SENATOR THOMAS: Well, it's the courts
9 that really determine the capacity issue
10 here, so they should be the ones that are,
11 you know, giving out the money. I mean, I
12 know it's under New York Mental Health Law,
13 but again, we can talk about this after the
14 budget hearing, but I just wanted to get your
15 thoughts on this and maybe we can work
16 towards funding this program. Because
17 there's a huge need, as you say.
18 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: There's
19 absolutely a real problem and a growing need,
20 and I'm in complete agreement with you about
21 that. We should talk further about how to
22 address it.
23 SENATOR THOMAS: All right, will do.
24 Thank you, Judge.
112
1 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Thank you.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
3 Chairwoman Weinstein.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
5 Assemblyman Carroll, but I just wanted to
6 announce first we were joined by
7 Assemblyman Burgos and Assemblywoman Wallace.
8 Now to Mr. Carroll.
9 Assemblyman Carroll, we can't hear
10 you. You're not muted, but we still can't
11 hear you. I'm not sure why.
12 Why don't we -- why don't we go to --
13 we're going to go to the next -- and let's
14 try and figure out what's going on. Let's go
15 to Assemblywoman Hyndman. And maybe exit and
16 come back in, Mr. Carroll, and then we'll get
17 back to you.
18 Assemblywoman Alicia Hyndman.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you,
20 Chairs Weinstein and Krueger.
21 Judge Marks, I have two questions.
22 I'll ask them both because of the time. In
23 Housing Court, are there resources and/or
24 measures in place for litigants that don't
113
1 have and haven't had access to the technology
2 required for virtual hearings? That's the
3 first question.
4 And the second question. Data from
5 the New York City Mayor's Office of
6 Criminal Justice shows pretrial rearrests
7 have remained consistent over time and
8 haven't changed with bail reform. In January
9 2019, prior to the implementation of bail
10 reform, 95 percent of people had no new
11 arrests. January 2021, two years later, the
12 number increased to 96 percent, meaning
13 slightly fewer people were rearrested
14 following bail reform implementation.
15 Shouldn't we look at the city's data,
16 being that everyone outside of New York City
17 refers to New York City when it comes to this
18 matter?
19 So if you could answer both questions,
20 I'd appreciate it.
21 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yeah,
22 taking the last one first, if the city data
23 is showing different results from the court
24 system and DCJS data that I'm familiar with,
114
1 we should look at that. There must be an
2 explanation for that.
3 But if there are discrepancies -- I
4 mean, this is very important. I mean, bail
5 reform seems like it's always debated, the
6 debate never ends. It's an important public
7 policy issue, and the data is critically
8 important. If there are any discrepancies in
9 the data, that should be resolved so that
10 policymakers who have to make these decisions
11 know that they have accurate and reliable
12 data that they can rely upon.
13 In terms of technology available to
14 Housing Court litigants, I did speak about
15 that a moment ago. I think the number-one
16 most important --
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: I was at a
18 hearing, sorry.
19 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: No -- no
20 problem. I'll repeat what I said. Happy to
21 do that.
22 But the most important thing that we
23 can do in Housing Court is to provide lawyers
24 for people who can't afford one. And
115
1 fortunately, in New York City the city
2 government is committed to doing that and has
3 been committed to that for a while, so that
4 everyone who can't afford a lawyer, every
5 tenant who can't afford a lawyer in New York
6 City will get one to represent him or her.
7 And in terms of outside the city,
8 there isn't that guarantee, although as I
9 noted a while ago, the Governor has suggested
10 that maybe funding -- the state should
11 identify funding to offer that opportunity
12 for people outside New York City who find
13 themselves in Housing Court and can't afford
14 a lawyer. Ultimately, that's the answer to
15 the problem.
16 But where that isn't the case, you
17 know, there are real challenges for -- not
18 everyone has the computer equipment that you
19 would need to successfully participate
20 virtually in a court proceeding. Or if they
21 did, they might not know how to use it
22 effectively.
23 And one of the answers -- and it's not
24 an immediate answer, because this will take
116
1 time and money. But one of the answers is to
2 install technology in community organizations
3 where people can go to a nonprofit community
4 organization in their community which has the
5 technology, and they can participate
6 virtually from that remote location.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to the
9 Senate.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
11 Senator Fred Akshar.
12 SENATOR AKSHAR: Madam Chairwoman,
13 thank you so much.
14 Your Honor, good to be with you.
15 Thanks for joining us today.
16 As you can tell, not only today but
17 for the past many months or last couple of
18 years, we've been having this robust debate
19 about public safety and the criminal justice
20 system throughout the State of New York. I
21 for one believe that we are failing New
22 Yorkers and we are less safe today than we
23 were just a short two years ago.
24 I have two questions, very briefly.
117
1 Does OCA have measures in place to address
2 the perceived racism or biases that exist?
3 So in the event that something like this
4 presented itself, are there measures in place
5 for OCA to deal with them directly?
6 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yes. We
7 have a robust investigative process when
8 there are complaints of bias or
9 discrimination happening in the court system.
10 We have our own independent inspector
11 general's office which will fully investigate
12 and make findings and recommendations.
13 And if there is a finding of bias or
14 discrimination, we have a zero tolerance
15 policy now in the court system and will take
16 swift and appropriate action to address it.
17 And to address implicit bias, we're
18 embarking on a mandatory five-year implicit
19 bias anti-bias program for all judges and all
20 staff in the court system. It will be
21 mandatory. It will be mandatory. It will
22 not be just a one-and-done presentation, it
23 will be a series of educational programs for
24 everyone over the course of a five-year
118
1 period. And we're very excited about this
2 and looking forward to this starting. And we
3 feel that effective training on bias will
4 prevent bias.
5 SENATOR AKSHAR: Your Honor, thank
6 you. So not only have you had a strong
7 program, you've taken the steps to ensure
8 that you have an even stronger and more
9 robust program moving forward. Is that a
10 fair assessment?
11 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yes, it is,
12 absolutely.
13 SENATOR AKSHAR: Thank you,
14 Your Honor.
15 Secondly, I say this with all due
16 respect. When Assemblyman Lawler asked you a
17 question, I think you had referred to like
18 your opinion didn't matter or what you felt
19 didn't matter specifically. I would say this
20 very strongly, that your opinion does in fact
21 matter.
22 So I'm just looking for a yes or a no,
23 if you can. Do you believe that if your
24 judges were able to make the determination
119
1 from the bench of the dangerousness of a
2 defendant in front of them, would that
3 ability keep New Yorkers more safe, yes or
4 no?
5 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: I think
6 judges would be able to make a more informed
7 and more effective decision about issues like
8 bail if they had broader discretion to do so.
9 SENATOR AKSHAR: So if they were able
10 to weigh the dangerousness of the defendant
11 in front of them, they would be able to make
12 a more informed decision with respect to
13 keeping New Yorkers safer?
14 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: They -- if
15 they had -- I'm sorry, could you repeat that
16 question?
17 SENATOR AKSHAR: Yeah. I just want to
18 make sure I understood your answer.
19 If judges in fact could make that
20 determination from the bench, the
21 dangerousness of the defendant in front of
22 them with respect of what to do with the
23 defendant, they could make a more informed
24 decision about whether or not to release them
120
1 back into the community or to set bail?
2 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: I think
3 they could be -- judges would feel that they
4 would be able to make a more informed
5 decision if they could take more information
6 into account in making these decisions.
7 SENATOR AKSHAR: Do you believe that,
8 as the chief administrative judge of the
9 great state of New York?
10 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: You know,
11 I'm not sitting on criminal cases these days
12 so, you know, I'm loath to express my own
13 opinion. But I'm here to convey how judges
14 feel as a group. And by the way, I'm not
15 saying a hundred percent of judges feel that
16 way, but I'm confident in saying that the
17 great majority of judges who sit on criminal
18 cases would agree with that.
19 SENATOR AKSHAR: Madam Chairwoman,
20 thank you so much. Your Honor, thank you for
21 answering my questions.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you,
23 Senator.
24 Assemblywoman Weinstein.
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1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes, we go back
2 to Mr. Carroll. I think he's corrected
3 his -- the issue he had. Three minutes.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: Chair Weinstein,
5 can you hear me?
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes. Yes, we
7 can hear you.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: I'm not that
9 much of a troglodyte.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: Judge Marks,
12 thank you for being here. I have a comment
13 and I have a question.
14 I would like to reiterate what Senator
15 Myrie said before about our Surrogate's
16 Court, especially in Brooklyn, and the issues
17 around the public administrator's office.
18 For my colleagues who don't know, I have a
19 piece of legislation that would actually put
20 the public administrator's office inside the
21 corporation counsel and have the mayor
22 appoint our public administrators in New York
23 City, which I think would be very important
24 to depoliticizing that office and making sure
122
1 the New Yorkers most vulnerable, you know,
2 those who have family members who die
3 intestate, are treated fairly and equitably.
4 But my question for you, Judge Marks,
5 is there are many members of the bar who have
6 reached out to me, especially in our civil
7 parts of the Supreme Court, who are at their
8 wits' end. They have had civil matters
9 delayed and delayed and delayed. You know,
10 they can't get simple motion work done let
11 alone actually get a trial date set.
12 What can the OCA do to make sure that
13 we find a way to efficiently run our civil
14 parts so that plaintiffs can actually have
15 their cases heard? This is a massive
16 windfall for the insurance industry and
17 monied interests who have been able to delay
18 cases and delay judgments, to the detriment
19 of plaintiffs.
20 And I'm highly, highly concerned, and
21 I'm concerned that OCA is not directing
22 judges at all costs to figure out ways to get
23 trials done, but to just get settlements
24 done, because they know that there is so much
123
1 delay and backlog.
2 What can OCA do, what can the
3 Legislature do to help you do your job?
4 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: The best
5 thing that we can do is to resume fuller
6 trial capacity. And I don't know if you were
7 on the meeting earlier, but we talked about
8 that, that it's the realistic threat and
9 capability of a trial that drives
10 settlements. Not entirely. And believe me,
11 we've resolved thousands and thousands of
12 cases over the last two years during the
13 pandemic, but we're not doing enough trials.
14 We fully acknowledge that. There are social
15 distancing requirements that make that
16 particularly challenging.
17 We're making an effort on both the
18 civil side and the criminal side to get
19 Health Department officials to mitigate,
20 but --
21 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: Judge Marks,
22 I --
23 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: That's the
24 number-one thing we can do.
124
1 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: I have limited
2 time.
3 You know, I hear from trial lawyers in
4 New York City every single day that they just
5 can't get simple appearances, that they have
6 judges who are, for lack of a better phrase,
7 missing in action. What is going on?
8 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well,
9 judges are not missing in action. Judges
10 have been in the courthouse for months and
11 months. They're conferencing cases. I'm
12 happy to talk about this with you further,
13 but --
14 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: I would love to
15 because I don't think that there -- you know,
16 there are so many stories that I've heard,
17 and I don't think they're all anecdotal,
18 where folks who have trials cannot get
19 appearances. And they feel as if they
20 cannot -- they can't practice, and they can't
21 represent their clients. And I really do
22 believe that this is a massive, massive
23 windfall for the insurance industry and
24 monied interests generally against plaintiffs
125
1 who otherwise would have claims be
2 adjudicated in their favor.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: With that,
4 we'll go to the Senate. Senator Krueger.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Just
6 double-checking on a hand that disappeared
7 but was not supposed to disappear.
8 Senator Jose Gustavo Rivera. I added
9 a Jose. What am I doing? Senator Gustavo
10 Rivera.
11 SENATOR RIVERA: That is my full name,
12 Madam Chair.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You know, I was
14 looking at a text from you and it had the
15 full name. So sorry.
16 SENATOR RIVERA: No worries. Thank
17 you, Madam Chair.
18 Thank you, Your Honor. My question
19 will be quick, and I actually just want to
20 underline something that was said earlier.
21 Many of the questions that I wanted to ask
22 have been asked, but specifically something
23 that Senator Sepúlveda brought up earlier at
24 the end of his questioning, and I just wanted
126
1 to give you, just so that you know -- because
2 I understand, obviously, you're responsible
3 for the entire court system.
4 But in the Bronx there are Part H and
5 Part A. Part H is for HP actions, and Part A
6 is for NYCHA cases -- you know, nonpays and
7 holdovers. But then Part B, C, D, E, F, G,
8 I, J, K and L are all of them dedicated to
9 nonpays and holdovers.
10 So the difference is extreme. So I
11 would certainly ask you to please look into
12 this, because it is obvious when you have --
13 I mean, the fire that killed all these folks
14 in the Bronx happened in my district in a
15 building that had, you know, all sorts of
16 issues with lack of heat, et cetera. And we
17 deal with these issues on a daily basis in my
18 district office. And I know that everybody
19 else probably in the city, but certainly in
20 the Bronx, deals with it.
21 So I just wanted to put that on the
22 record. There is that enormous a
23 distinction: One part for HP actions and
24 eight, I think, or nine for everything else.
127
1 That's -- that just seems completely -- just
2 crazy.
3 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yeah, I
4 promise you we will look at that to make sure
5 there's not an imbalance in that. I mean, we
6 have to be able to address code violations,
7 it's critically, critically important. And,
8 you know, the latest tragedy underscores
9 that, obviously. And if, you know, the
10 numbers justify additional HP parts, we can
11 do that. But it's something -- it's the
12 first I'm hearing about this. So this is
13 helpful, and we'll absolutely look into it
14 and --
15 SENATOR RIVERA: I will definitely
16 follow up with you on it. But since you've
17 said that this is the first time you heard
18 it, I wanted to make sure to underline it so
19 that it is right there. Underline it in your
20 notes or what have you, and we will follow up
21 with you afterwards.
22 Thank you, Your Honor. And thank you,
23 Madam Chair.
24 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Thank you.
128
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
2 Assemblywoman Weinstein.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
4 Assemblyman Burdick.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you. And
6 thank you, Your Honor.
7 I had two questions. I will ask both
8 of them, in the interests of time.
9 A question from a long-serving town
10 justice in one of the towns I represent,
11 whether the court system might go to
12 centralized arraignments, as he believes they
13 do in Nassau County. And if so, how would
14 this impact the future role of town and
15 village courts?
16 And the second question is I represent
17 a portion of Westchester, and prior to bail
18 reform nearly 24,000 people were incarcerated
19 prior to -- in pretrial between 2010 and 2014
20 because bail couldn't be met. Those who are
21 white made bail at twice the rate of those
22 who are Black.
23 And bail reform, as you know, was
24 intended to address this disparity as well as
129
1 to reduce the degree that people are jailed
2 without a conviction.
3 And apart from bail reform, what
4 additional basic guardrails and protections
5 against jailing without a conviction exist?
6 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: The first
7 question, about centralized arraignment
8 parts, we've expanded them. They're
9 terrific. I mean, they're a great
10 improvement over what preceded them in
11 counties, particularly -- not just rural
12 counties, but particularly rural counties
13 throughout the state where, if someone gets
14 arrested, they have to go find -- wake -- in
15 the middle of the night, the police have to
16 take the person and find like a judge and
17 wake him or her up and conduct the
18 arraignment. Not an ideal system.
19 So the centralized arraignment part
20 for -- off-hour arraignments can take place
21 in a central location where there will be a
22 lawyer, staff there, and a prosecutor staff
23 there and a judge, obviously, there. And
24 it's far preferable to, you know, running
130
1 around all over the place trying to find a
2 judge in the middle of the night, and often
3 not succeeding.
4 So we're supportive. We have them in
5 many jurisdictions around the state, many
6 counties. And this is of course outside
7 New York City exclusively. And we're
8 committed to setting up more of them.
9 In terms of the economic inequality of
10 cash bail, I mean, I agree with you
11 completely about that, that whole notion of,
12 you know, how much money you have can dictate
13 whether you can attain your liberty is --
14 it's un-American, frankly. I mean, it flies
15 in the face of everything this country is
16 about.
17 So, you know, I'm just -- now I'm
18 expressing my own opinion, which some of your
19 colleagues asked me to do.
20 But we still have cash bail in this
21 state, and there are states that have
22 eliminated cash bail. And, you know, that's
23 something that should be considered,
24 obviously.
131
1 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you very
2 much. I appreciate it.
3 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: You're
4 welcome.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. Now
6 to the Senate.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. And I
8 believe our last Senator, unless someone else
9 pops up, is Senator Sue Serino.
10 SENATOR SERINO: Thank you,
11 Chairwoman.
12 And hello, Your Honor. Thank you for
13 taking our questions today.
14 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Sure.
15 SENATOR SERINO: I know some of my
16 colleagues have already asked your thoughts
17 on allowing judges to consider dangerousness
18 when setting bail, and I really appreciated
19 your answers. I've carried a bill since 2019
20 that would give judges discretion to consider
21 dangerousness, and I would be interested to
22 hear your thoughts on that bill. But
23 obviously you don't have that bill in front
24 of you, so I'd like to follow up after the
132
1 hearing, if possible, because we really think
2 that that change is critically important.
3 And I also share the concerns for the
4 backlogs that some of my colleagues have
5 spoken about as well.
6 But my question is, does the Housing
7 Court have anything in place right now where
8 people who are not eligible for ERAP but may
9 have an application pending that will likely
10 be denied, can be directed to other
11 appropriate resources? And I apologize if
12 somebody asked that question; I had to jump
13 off for a Zoom before.
14 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, the
15 current state of the law, and this includes a
16 judicial decision from a judge in Manhattan
17 rendered within the last couple of weeks, is
18 that if -- even though the money is exhausted
19 at the moment -- and there may be more money
20 coming, and hopefully -- I think everyone
21 would agree that it would be good if there
22 were more money, good for tenants, good for
23 landlords, good for everyone.
24 But the current state of the law is if
133
1 there's an application pending -- and people
2 can file new applications now, even though
3 there's no money at the moment. But if an
4 application is filed, then the court
5 proceeding is stayed. So that's the current
6 state of the law as a result of a court
7 decision from a few weeks ago.
8 SENATOR SERINO: So -- I guess that
9 answered my question. It's just a -- okay.
10 All right, thank you, Your Honor. I
11 appreciate it.
12 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: You're
13 welcome. Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
15 So Chairwoman Weinstein, I think the
16 Senate has completed its list. So why don't
17 you just start rolling Assemblymember after
18 Assemblymember.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We have two
20 members, Assemblywoman Kelles and then it
21 will be Assemblyman Walczyk, to close.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Helene, my
23 name's been on the stack for a bit.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Wait, who's
134
1 this?
2 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Harvey.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Harvey's first.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Oh, I'm sorry.
5 Yes, I cut you off. Yes, Assemblyman Epstein
6 and then Kelles and Walczyk.
7 When I copied it, I left you out. It
8 was unintentional, Harvey.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Chair, we also have
10 Mr. Reilly, who joined us and has his hand
11 raised.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay. I don't
13 see that on my screen, but that's not a
14 problem.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay. Thank you.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So we go to
17 Assemblyman -- oh, the problem is for some
18 reason Assemblyman Reilly is mixed in with
19 the Senate. I don't know if that was a
20 demotion or a promotion for him.
21 (Laughter.)
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry, we're
23 not starting that fight today. No, no, no.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
135
1 Epstein.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you,
3 Chair.
4 And thank you, Judge Marks, for being
5 here.
6 I know we all don't have a lot of
7 time. Just on the diversity of the bench,
8 what percentage of judges are Black in OCA?
9 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: I have
10 those numbers. I could find them, it might
11 take me a minute. Could I get them to you
12 post-hearing?
13 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Yeah. I mean,
14 great to know Asian, Black, Latino judges,
15 court attorneys who are Black, Asian, Latino.
16 I mean, because -- you know, obviously
17 people's personal experiences impact how they
18 view the bench. And you're saying the
19 majority of judges are in favor of
20 dangerousness, I'm just wanting to know who
21 those judges are and how they represent our
22 state. I'd love to have that data.
23 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: We have the
24 demographic data, and of course happy to
136
1 share it with you.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: I appreciate
3 that.
4 And do you have the eviction data for
5 2021, how many evictions occurred in 2021?
6 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: We have
7 that also, yes.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Could I get --
9 could you share that with my office? I'd
10 appreciate that.
11 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Of course.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And I just want
13 to reiterate what we heard from my colleagues
14 around the HP issue. I understand that you
15 may say that the percentage of cases might be
16 lower for HP actions, but as someone who's
17 practiced in Housing Court for decades, what
18 we've heard is not just the number but the
19 slowdown of these trials where heat and hot
20 water cases are taking months because the
21 judge is -- even though there's only --
22 there's one HP judge, and they do a half a
23 day, you know, for weeks at a time because
24 they have an HP calendar.
137
1 So I just would love for you not just
2 to look at the number of cases but how those
3 cases are impacting the people appearing
4 before them.
5 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yeah. No,
6 I -- that's I think an excellent point.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Great. And then
8 I want to turn our attention to the backlog,
9 because I know that you mentioned that a lot
10 on the backlog. Because what we've heard is
11 a lot of people who are being held at Rikers
12 are staying there because of the backlog of
13 their trials.
14 And I understand the issues of the
15 social distancing. But, you know, the real
16 world impact that's having on people who, you
17 know, there are allegations that they've
18 committed a crime and are just sitting in
19 Rikers six months, a year -- we've heard from
20 defender associations that they're there for
21 long periods of time.
22 Like what is the real plan? Because
23 18 months isn't a real plan to get these
24 cases taken care of. We really need to hear
138
1 what the short-term plan is. Is it
2 additional resources? What is the plan, is
3 it additional space? Like what is the plan
4 to get this backlog taken care of?
5 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Every week
6 we schedule criminal jury trials with a great
7 preference to, you know, what are described
8 as in-defendants, who are in detention, as
9 opposed to being out at liberty.
10 And we -- as was discussed two hours
11 ago at the outset of this hearing, under
12 social distancing protocols -- and the
13 defender groups will certainly support what
14 I'm saying -- it's very difficult to conduct
15 criminal jury trials because of the --
16 particularly the jury selection requires
17 multiple courtrooms.
18 And so it's a function of space, which
19 is a function of the 6-foot social distancing
20 rule. And I don't know if you --
21 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Judge Marks, I'm
22 almost out of time, but I know -- if there's
23 more space, then that's something we can talk
24 through. If it's a space issue, please come
139
1 to us and say it's space.
2 And I ran out of time, but I do want
3 to talk about the court consolidation issues.
4 I have some concerns I raised years ago when
5 you first produced that, and I'd love to
6 follow up with you about some of those
7 concerns that I still have.
8 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Sure.
9 Sure. Absolutely.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: But please come
11 to us if it's a space issue.
12 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Okay.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
14 So now we go to Assemblywoman Kelles.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Thank you so
16 much.
17 In the interests of time, I'm going to
18 try and run through mine as well really
19 quickly.
20 Just, first, one comment that was
21 previously mentioned about funding and
22 staffing for assigned counsel. I just wanted
23 to add my two -- you know, additional support
24 for that. We are also having a very
140
1 difficult time and I know the rates have not
2 increased since 2004. I definitely think we
3 are due.
4 And wanted to also add my two cents to
5 considering requesting or putting in funding
6 also for any kind of centralized staffing.
7 It's not just that they don't have the
8 funds -- the correct rate at this point, I
9 think -- but that whatever they do get, they
10 have to use it if they want to get any
11 staffing support. So that's something we
12 don't talk about very often, but I do think
13 that that's also an issue.
14 And another thing I wanted to ask you
15 about was related to mental health court or
16 wellness court. It statistically has been
17 shown to be hugely successful, and there have
18 been a lot of people in my district who are
19 asking questions of whether or not that could
20 be expanded in every county throughout the
21 state. I have one county that has it, it's
22 hugely successful; another county that does
23 not.
24 And so I wanted to ask really quickly
141
1 if that has been something that you at all
2 discussed and something that you would
3 consider supporting and advocating for.
4 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yeah, I
5 think it's fair to say that's our ultimate
6 goal, that the mental health courts are
7 successful. And every county ideally should
8 have one, and I think that's a reasonable
9 goal to strive towards.
10 They are resource-intensive, however,
11 and the -- usually they're initiated by grant
12 money, grant money that the state gets from
13 the federal government. The SAMHSA
14 administration, which is part of HHS,
15 distributes block grant money to states. And
16 the State Office of Mental Health would want
17 to be on board on that. So yes --
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Thank you so
19 much. I will follow up with you on that.
20 I'm so sorry to cut you off. But I will
21 definitely follow up, because if there is a
22 way to do that together, then I certainly am
23 interested.
24 But I did want to make one comment
142
1 quickly about bail reform, and a question.
2 One thing that I'm very concerned
3 about is that we are not taking the data in
4 context. We have seen an increase in gun
5 violence and violent crime throughout the
6 entire country, and in fact New York State is
7 less than the average across the entire
8 country. Which begs the question if we're
9 the only ones that have had bail reform, then
10 would we not expect that we would actually be
11 higher?
12 So I would ask you, do you think that
13 the COVID crisis has influenced the increase
14 that we are seeing, rather than bail reform?
15 That is my first question about it.
16 And my second question is a concern
17 that I have, which is the fact that as a
18 result of bail reform we have seen a
19 reduction in people incarcerated pretrial,
20 but we've actually seen as a result a
21 significant increase, an exacerbation of the
22 number of Black people who are incarcerated
23 specifically after bail reform.
24 So I wanted to know if you could
143
1 comment on that, and specifically the
2 questions on right now, given implicit bias
3 and the lack of the fact that you've had that
4 yet, of whether you feel comfortable with the
5 movement forward of giving the discretion of
6 assessing dangerousness, given the imbalance
7 I believe --
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman,
9 leave --
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: -- for people
11 of color.
12 Yes, thank you very much. If you
13 could just answer those briefly, that would
14 be good.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: If you have a
16 very brief response, Judge Marks.
17 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Sure. I
18 think that the rise in shootings is not just
19 a phenomenon here in New York, but it is
20 particularly in cities across the country,
21 some of which have bail reform, some of which
22 don't, I assume. I don't have all the
23 information on all the jurisdictions across
24 the country.
144
1 But there's no doubt, I would think,
2 that it's fair to say that the pandemic has
3 had an impact on that. Exactly how, I'm not
4 sure. I'm not a criminologist. But I think
5 the evidence would point to the pandemic
6 having an impact on the rise in shootings in
7 jurisdictions around the country.
8 In terms of bias built into the
9 pretrial detention in New York, I would hope
10 that's not the case, but I haven't seen data
11 on that one way or the other. And I don't
12 know if there is data. There should be.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: I'll share the
14 data.
15 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Okay.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay, thank
17 you. We're going to move on to Assemblyman
18 Walczyk.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Thanks,
20 Madam Chair.
21 Your Honor, wonderful to hear from you
22 today. Appreciate your answers to a number
23 of the questions, and that's cut down on the
24 number of questions that I have today.
145
1 So the Judiciary Budget that's
2 presented by the Executive here requests --
3 shows that the New York City Civil Court is
4 disposing of less than half of the new case
5 filings, yet the budget does not request a
6 significant increase in personnel and
7 requests only a minuscule amount of
8 overtime -- I think I'm reading this right,
9 only $14,000?
10 So how would OCA address the terrible
11 increase in cases that have not been
12 disposed?
13 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, you
14 can't be looking at the right number for
15 overtime. The overtime number that we're
16 seeking is closer to -- between 25 and $30
17 million, and closer to the $30 million.
18 So we are relying on more overtime
19 because our staffing numbers are down, so
20 there's pressures to -- more reliance on our
21 existing workforce and getting them to work
22 additional hours for which they're entitled
23 to overtime.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Yeah, so on
146
1 page -- and, Your Honor, it may be a typo
2 that you want to take up with the Executive,
3 because on page 74 I'm reading the personal
4 service request also includes $14,239 for
5 overtime, which supports current level of
6 operations. Which I was surprised by that
7 small number to even be able to -- but, I
8 mean, understandably, if there's almost no
9 overtime allotted, that we would be less than
10 50 percent of filings to dispositions.
11 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yeah, I'm
12 sorry, I'll have to take a look at that, and
13 I will.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Okay. And then
15 if you could comment, with my remaining time,
16 town and village courts were virtually closed
17 for a year pursuant to directives from OCA,
18 creating a substantial backlog. And I know
19 you've talked about this quite a bit already
20 today. Is the funding for town and village
21 courts increased to address the huge backlog
22 of cases in a timely manner consistent with
23 the Executive's initiative goals of fairly
24 and promptly adjudicating cases and
147
1 eliminating delay and backlog in court
2 operations?
3 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, we --
4 this budget doesn't fund town and village
5 courts. I mean, we have a unified court
6 system in New York, you know, state-financed
7 and state-managed. But when the Constitution
8 was amended to provide for that, it did not
9 include the town and village courts. They're
10 funded and staffed by their local locality,
11 their local town and village.
12 We do have a grant program, which has
13 been in place for a number of years, that
14 allows town and village courts to apply for
15 enhancements like to purchase a magnetometer
16 or to build a bench.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Yeah, Your
18 Honor, how do you expect those local courts
19 are going to be able to catch up on their
20 backlogs?
21 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: I think
22 they -- and, by the way, they never closed.
23 They operated virtually. You know, we always
24 emphasize that, that during the worst days of
148
1 the pandemic, once we set them up with
2 technology -- and we help the town and
3 village courts with technology, even though
4 we don't fund them -- you know, the courts
5 conducted proceedings virtually.
6 But I think the way to do it is -- and
7 virtual has great advantages, but it
8 sometimes can't be as efficient as in-person.
9 And I think the town and village courts, like
10 a lot of the state-paid courts in New York,
11 are going to just have to plow through --
12 calendar these cases and plow through them
13 and resolve them as best that they can.
14 Is that going to happen overnight?
15 No. But, you know, improvement in the public
16 health conditions will facilitate the
17 resolution of many more cases once that
18 happens.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Appreciate it,
20 Your Honor. Thanks, Madam Chair.
21 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: You're
22 welcome.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
24 We go to Assemblyman Reilly.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: Thank you, Madam
2 Chair.
3 Thank you, Your Honor, for coming
4 today and talking to us.
5 One question that I have up front is
6 there's a lot of misinformation going around
7 about the current case out of Nassau County
8 with the mask mandate, saying that it was
9 unconstitutional. There's talk going on now
10 that there's a stay on it.
11 Can you clarify for us today, is there
12 an actual stay on that decision right now,
13 where everything will remain in place, or is
14 there not?
15 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Yeah, I
16 haven't read the decision. I saw a newspaper
17 account about it. But don't hold me to this,
18 because I could be incorrect, but I believe
19 when the state files a notice of appeal under
20 Civil Practice Law, that there's an automatic
21 stay of the trial court decision.
22 So I don't know if that's happened
23 yet, but what I read is that there will be an
24 appeal, and if there's an appeal there will
150
1 be a notice of appeal filed. And you know,
2 that will resurrect an automatic stay of the
3 trial court's decision.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: Thank you for
5 that clarification, sir.
6 So one thing I want to raise under
7 public protection is Raise the Age, and we
8 talked about -- many people have talked about
9 gun violence here. And especially the things
10 in New York City, we see the uptick in crime.
11 One of the parts of Raise the Age -- I
12 have a bill I introduced where it's about 16-
13 and 17-year-olds in possession, arrested for
14 possessing a loaded firearm. Currently they
15 would go to Family Court unless they used it
16 in the act of a crime. I'm hoping that the
17 legislation will allow them to stay in Youth
18 Part Criminal.
19 The reason why I say that is here are
20 some numbers that we have from over the last
21 two years: 2021, under 18, 940 -- combined
22 2020 and 2021, 947 people under the age of 18
23 were arrested for a firearm. In 2020, there
24 were 411, and in 2021 there were 536. That's
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1 an alarming number, and it's on the rise.
2 And I think one part of clarifying
3 Raise the Age, where the DAs could say that
4 they have extenuating circumstances, just by
5 possessing a loaded firearm, under the Penal
6 Law, to stay in Youth Part, would help
7 address those concerns. Do you have any
8 insight on that?
9 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: I really
10 don't. I know there's been talk about
11 revisiting the Raise the Age statute, which I
12 think over the four-plus years, however long
13 it's been of its existence, I think has
14 worked well.
15 That's not to say that it's perfect,
16 but I really have no opinion and haven't
17 evaluated the change that you're suggesting.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: One of the
19 concerns we have is that when you have
20 someone like a 14- or a 15-year-old that has
21 a firearm and it goes to Family Court, that
22 case is sealed and can't be used.
23 While just a recent incident in the
24 Bronx, that defendant actually had a case in
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1 Family Court Act and pled, and it was a
2 misdemeanor they pled it down to, but it
3 can't be used, and now the 16-year-old
4 incident. So it's as if that never happened.
5 So they've used a gun twice, and
6 unfortunately only one could be used. So I
7 think this is a step that could help us in
8 all directions.
9 Thank you.
10 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Well, let
11 me just say quickly that I think one of the
12 primary purposes of the Raise the Age statute
13 was not to saddle people of that age bracket
14 with criminal records. But is that always
15 the right policy? It may --
16 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: I agree -- I
17 agree with that --
18 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: It may or
19 may not be, but that was one of the
20 underlying purposes of the legislation.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: Well, when we
22 have gang members that are using 16- and
23 17-year-olds to skirt the law by having
24 loaded firearms, knowing that they won't be
153
1 held accountable, that's where we jeopardize
2 safety. And I think that's something that we
3 have to consider, and that's a narrow point
4 of change that could be made.
5 Thank you, though. I appreciate it,
6 and I'm sorry for cutting you off.
7 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: No problem.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you,
9 Assemblyman.
10 And our final questioner is
11 Assemblyman Palmesano.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry, I'm
13 just going to jump in for one second.
14 Apparently the stream for people on the
15 outside watching and listening to us cut off
16 for a few minutes. But it was fixed, and
17 everybody should be back on. So if you get
18 any individual complaints that your
19 constituents suddenly weren't there, whatever
20 the issue was, it was resolved.
21 Thank you.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
23 So now to Assemblyman Palmesano.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Yes, thank
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1 you, Your Honor, for being here and your
2 patience for this long day.
3 My first question really is last year
4 the Legislature approved funding -- or
5 approved 14 new Supreme Court judgeships.
6 Does the Judiciary Budget account for funding
7 for the judges and their support staff? And
8 also, along that same line, who pays for the
9 physical courtroom space for these 14 new
10 judges that they will need for court
11 operations? Is this going to be a fiscal
12 burden that's going to be placed on our
13 localities and counties, or is this going to
14 be in the Judiciary Budget?
15 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: First of
16 all, the funding for the new judgeships is
17 absolutely included in this budget request,
18 so the money will be there for the judges and
19 their staff.
20 And court facilities, as you may
21 know -- it's a state court system, and the
22 judges and employees are all state employees.
23 But the facilities are -- at least for the
24 trial courts, the facilities are owned and
155
1 maintained by the localities, New York City
2 in the City of New York, and individual
3 counties outside New York City.
4 So we -- these judges were elected in
5 November, the new judges, and they came on
6 board in early January. And if there was any
7 problem in securing space for them, I'm sure
8 I would have heard about this, and I haven't
9 heard any problems. So I think the existing
10 facilities are able to absorb the new
11 judgeships. Of course, they're spread out
12 over a number of counties. If 14 new judges
13 showed up in one county, that would be a
14 problem.
15 But I haven't heard of any facilities
16 concerns, and as a result of that I'm
17 assuming that they've been absorbed
18 successfully in the courthouses where they're
19 assigned.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Great. Thank
21 you, Your Honor. I have one more question.
22 Last year the Legislature unanimously
23 passed legislation, A6044, that basically
24 required that any retired judge of the Court
156
1 of Appeals shall be recertified by the OCA,
2 instead of may, as long as they have the
3 mental and physical capacity to perform
4 such duties.
5 What is OCA's position on this
6 legislation, and have you had conversations
7 with the administration on whether they're
8 supporting the bill or chaptering it or
9 reading the legislation? Because obviously
10 that's an important piece of legislation that
11 had unanimous support from the Legislature.
12 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: To be
13 blunt, we think it's a terrible bill. It
14 would lead to really unfortunate consequences
15 if that became law. I could go into the
16 reasons why with you, but we could talk about
17 that offline. And we've made our views known
18 to the Governor's office why we think it's a
19 really bad bill.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Fair enough.
21 Thank you, Your Honor, for your time and
22 patience.
23 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: You're
24 welcome.
157
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. We
2 have one more Assemblymember, Assemblyman
3 Abinanti for a question to conclude. He
4 seems to have raised his hand and now not, so
5 perhaps that was an error. We'll assume that
6 was an error.
7 So I just want to take a moment, Judge
8 Marks, to thank you for being here with us
9 and spending as much time as you did. And I
10 just really want to say thank you. I don't
11 have any questions for you; our colleagues
12 have asked sufficient questions to cover any
13 of my concerns.
14 CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: Thank you.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senator
16 Krueger?
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes, I also want
18 to thank you for your time with us today.
19 I think it's clear, Judge Marks, that
20 we appreciate how much the court system has
21 been going through during this complex period
22 of COVID and keeping distance and keeping
23 people healthy and safe while ensuring our
24 judicial system goes forward. But I also
158
1 think it's we have lots of questions and
2 concerns moving forward. And we look forward
3 to working with you and the court system to
4 make our New York court system even better in
5 addressing the needs of our communities.
6 So I know we took up quite a bit of
7 your time today. And for people following
8 along, we have a very extensive list of
9 testifiers, so stay comfortable in your
10 chairs. We're going to be around for a
11 while.
12 We'll allow Judge Marks to leave, and
13 we will welcome Robert -- I never pronounce
14 your name right, but I'm going to try it --
15 Tembeckjian, who is the administrator and
16 counsel for the New York State Commission on
17 Judicial Conduct.
18 Hi, Robert, how are you?
19 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Fine,
20 thank you, Senator. And how are you? And I
21 appreciate the opportunity to see you and all
22 of your colleagues.
23 I'm in an unaccustomed position this
24 year because for the first time in a decade,
159
1 the Executive Budget and the Judicial Conduct
2 Commission are in agreement on what our
3 funding levels should be. And I believe that
4 this is primarily due to two factors. One is
5 that we have a Governor with a senior staff
6 that appreciate the commission's
7 constitutional independence, recognize that
8 although our budget comes to the Legislature
9 through the Executive, that we are not a
10 gubernatorial agency and that these
11 recommendations ought to be the result of
12 conversation as opposed to dictation.
13 And secondly, because I think the
14 effect of several years of assistance that
15 the Legislature has provided to the
16 commission, by supplementing what previous
17 Executive Budgets have recommended for us,
18 has made a statement and is having an impact.
19 So apart from this Governor having an
20 appreciation for the unique constitutional
21 role that the commission plays, I think that
22 she and her senior staff appreciate that the
23 Legislature has had that appreciation for
24 quite some time.
160
1 As you know, the commission is the
2 state agency that enforces the rules of
3 ethics on the judiciary. There are 3500
4 judges in the State Unified Court System over
5 whom we have jurisdiction. Despite the
6 disruptions over the last two years as a
7 result of the pandemic, we have managed to
8 meet our responsibilities with innovative
9 technological improvements and advances, so
10 that we processed last year over 1900
11 complaints and over 3400 over the last two
12 years. We engaged or conducted over 630
13 preliminary reviews and inquiries, we have
14 initiated over 240 full-fledged
15 investigations, and have removed or
16 effectuated the permanent resignation of
17 24 judges, publicly reprimanded 17, and
18 confidentially cautioned 53.
19 So despite the challenges posed by the
20 pandemic, we have been effectively meeting
21 our responsibilities.
22 The one thing that I would ask the
23 Legislature to consider -- and it's not
24 strictly a money-related bill, although it
161
1 affects the manner in which the commission
2 makes its financial presentation to the
3 Legislature. I have asked the Governor's
4 office to consider, in one of the 30-day
5 amendments, a single-sentence addition to our
6 governing statute in the Judiciary Law which
7 would emulate the way the Executive presents
8 the Judicial Budget to the Legislature.
9 We're asking for authorization to submit our
10 budget to the Legislature through the
11 Executive, but without amendment and with
12 comment.
13 Because we don't report to the
14 Governor, because we are not an executive
15 agency, we would like to enshrine in law the
16 relationship that we have with the current
17 Governor and her staff, because history has
18 taught us all too clearly and painfully that
19 a different governor, a different budget
20 director, different senior staff have a view
21 of the commission that is less appreciative
22 of our independence of the executive branch.
23 We are in the Judiciary Article of the
24 Constitution. We perform an exclusively
162
1 judicial branch function, which is to
2 discipline judges of the State Unified Court
3 System. And while you and the various
4 committees of both houses -- Assembly
5 Judiciary, Senate Judiciary, Finance on both
6 sides -- have long appreciated that the
7 Executive should not control, via the
8 funding, the discipline of judicial branch
9 officers, a simple amendment in the law would
10 codify that and resolve, you know, any
11 dispute or issue that we might have with
12 future governors as we certainly have had
13 with past governors on this issue.
14 So if it is in the 30-day amendment, I
15 hope it would be adopted. If it's not, I've
16 spoken to Senator Hoylman's staff just this
17 week about standalone legislation for this
18 proposition which I think would resolve the
19 conflicts that have so often in the past been
20 the subject of my testimonial appearances
21 before you.
22 So seeing the smile on my face instead
23 of the hat in my hand this year, I'm happy to
24 answer whatever questions you might have,
163
1 Senator Hoylman, Chairman Lavine on the
2 Assembly side, and any of your other
3 colleagues.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Great. Thank you
5 very much.
6 I also want to thank you for coming
7 and testifying at the Senate's recent Ethics
8 hearing on visiting JCOPE and that it could
9 be built back better, so to speak, and you
10 were very helpful and enlightening to us as
11 well.
12 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Well,
13 thank you, I appreciate that. And I never
14 fail to note that the legislation you've
15 proposed to fashion an alternative to JCOPE
16 is in large part modeled on the Judicial
17 Conduct Commission, which has demonstrated
18 success as an ethics enforcement entity.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Correct. Thank
20 you.
21 I'm going to turn it over to the
22 Judiciary chair for the Senate, Brad Hoylman.
23 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you, Chair
24 Krueger.
164
1 And good to see you. We're so glad
2 that you're happy, because that's been an
3 effort in both of our houses. And I just
4 want to acknowledge Senator Krueger, our
5 Finance chair in my house, for her leadership
6 on this issue over the years to make certain
7 that you are well-funded and that our judges
8 are reviewed properly, as you do. And so we
9 appreciate all of your work.
10 And I'll be reaching out to
11 Chairman Lavine on the legislation that you
12 discussed to see if we might pursue that
13 option.
14 But I wanted to ask you a couple of
15 questions. Specifically, we've heard
16 conversations around bail reform today and
17 the issue of how judges have implemented it.
18 In the CJC annual report from last year, the
19 report says that the commission doesn't take
20 a position on the efficacy of the law or
21 proposals to amend it -- this is under a
22 section entitled "Judicial Responses to the
23 New Bail Law" --
24 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Right.
165
1 SENATOR HOYLMAN: -- but that the
2 commission "takes the opportunity to remind
3 judges that whatever their individual views
4 of the law may be, they are obliged under the
5 rules governing judicial conduct to respect
6 and comply with the law, to be faithful to
7 the law, and to maintain professional
8 competence in the law.
9 "In a particular case, a judge who in
10 good faith interprets the law need not fear
11 disciplinary consequences for what may turn
12 out to be a legal error that is reversed on
13 appeal. However, a judge who purposefully
14 fails to abide by the law, e.g., to make a
15 political point or because s/he personally
16 disagrees with the law, invites discipline."
17 I wanted to ask you, on that specific
18 point, inviting discipline, have any judges
19 been subject to discipline on this basis
20 since the implementation of bail reform?
21 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: We have
22 not publicly disciplined any judge yet for
23 violating or failing purposefully to avoid
24 the bail law.
166
1 You're absolutely right, in the
2 section that you read, that judges are
3 obliged to respect and comply with the law,
4 to be professionally competent in the law, to
5 be faithful in the law. There have been --
6 and I heard your exchange with Judge Marks on
7 this subject earlier today -- there have been
8 some newspaper reports, not all of them
9 accurate, about highlighting some situations
10 in which it appeared as if a judge or two
11 were purposefully avoiding the bail law.
12 To date, we have not found that to be
13 the case. We get several complaints every
14 few months related to the bail law issue. We
15 examine them carefully. If we find that
16 there is any judge who is purposefully not
17 enforcing the law -- and that's true of the
18 bail law, it's true of any statute -- that
19 judge would be subject to discipline for it.
20 We have in the past, even before the
21 bail law reforms, publicly disciplined,
22 including removed from office, judges who
23 were abusing bail and otherwise not abiding
24 by statutory guidance. So we're not afraid
167
1 to take it on. We have disciplined judges in
2 the past for violations of the bail statutes.
3 And if we find that anyone is currently
4 purposefully avoiding, as opposed to making a
5 good-faith error that would be reviewable on
6 appeal, we have reviewed those complaints and
7 we would take action.
8 SENATOR HOYLMAN: So you say that you
9 have in the past disciplined judges on the
10 issue of bail laws, but not since the bail
11 reform laws were passed.
12 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Correct.
13 Publicly, correct. Absolutely right.
14 SENATOR HOYLMAN: And are there any
15 open investigations or inquiries?
16 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: We do.
17 There are a couple of matters that we are
18 currently reviewing. But obviously, as you
19 know, because of our confidentiality statute,
20 I can't say more about that.
21 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Yes. Speaking of
22 which -- so I appreciate that response.
23 We've previously discussed ways to
24 increase transparency in judicial conduct
168
1 proceedings, including making proceedings
2 public once there is a formal charge. Could
3 you discuss how that might work and why it
4 would be important to foster public trust in
5 the judiciary?
6 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: New York
7 is in the minority of states which keep
8 confidential all judicial disciplinary
9 proceedings until the very end and then make
10 them public only if there is a public
11 discipline imposed.
12 And I think that the significance or
13 the importance of transparency is twofold:
14 One, for the public to have confidence that
15 the disciplinary system is working as it
16 should. So in the same way that a grand jury
17 investigation of an alleged crime would be
18 confidential, once there is an indictment
19 returned, even if the individual goes on to
20 be acquitted at trial, the matter becomes
21 public. That is enshrined in the U.S.
22 Constitution and in our law since
23 post-colonial constitutional government was
24 founded.
169
1 Secondly, as the commission itself has
2 said in previous annual reports, it's a way
3 to keep the disciplinary body honest and for
4 the public to appreciate or understand that
5 the body is dealing with important, serious
6 matters in a way that the public can see, the
7 process can be seen, so that the public can
8 have faith that the commission is not, for
9 example, to use an old vernacular,
10 deep-sixing the case unjustifiably.
11 And I think that would be true of any
12 ethics enforcement entity. Investigations
13 should always be confidential. There is too
14 much at stake for any allegations without
15 some sort of filtering process to become
16 public. But once an official body has
17 determined that cause exists to discipline a
18 judge -- or any other public official -- it's
19 my view that that should be public both to
20 keep the enforcers honest and to undermine --
21 and to underscore the public's faith that the
22 process is working and that public officials
23 will be held accountable for wrongdoing.
24 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you.
170
1 We've seen in recent years how judges
2 can avoid discipline by resigning. Do you
3 think we should amend the commission's
4 jurisdiction to provide continuing oversight
5 jurisdiction after resignation?
6 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: I do. And
7 the commission has written about this as
8 well.
9 Currently, under law, Section 47 of
10 the Judiciary Law limits the commission to
11 120 days after a judge resigns and then only
12 if the discipline is going to be removal from
13 office, because under the Constitution a
14 judge who's removed is ineligible ever to
15 return to the bench.
16 But there is a lot of behavior that is
17 less than removable -- censurable or
18 admonishable -- that a judge should not be
19 able to avoid the consequences of by leaving
20 office before the inquiry is done. And I
21 think a fair amendment of that statute would
22 give the commission -- keep the 120 days, but
23 give the commission 120 days to conclude its
24 investigation. And it if determines that
171
1 formal charges are required, then let the
2 process play itself out.
3 And if a judge did something in the
4 last six months of office that should be
5 censured, so be it. That is certainly true
6 of other public officers. The law was
7 amended some years ago so that other public
8 officials can be disciplined after resigning;
9 resignation doesn't give you a free pass from
10 accountability. And the same should be true
11 of the judicial branch.
12 SENATOR HOYLMAN: You know, we're
13 hearing of unvaccinated judges, you heard
14 that mentioned today. Last week there was
15 news of a City Court judge who was not only
16 unvaccinated but continuing to come into the
17 office, and refused to wear a mask despite
18 court rules requiring him to work from home.
19 Are there any complaints to the
20 Commission on Judicial Conduct on this
21 subject? And what are the potential
22 consequences for a judge that, you know, puts
23 their colleagues and staff and litigants at
24 risk?
172
1 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Well,
2 judges are obliged by the Ethics Code to obey
3 not only the law but court rules. And the
4 court system has promulgated rules on
5 vaccination and on masking -- in fact, the
6 state has obviously the masking requirement
7 that is the subject of some litigation.
8 Failure to abide by rules subjects a
9 judge to public discipline. So as Judge
10 Marks was unable to discuss specific cases,
11 suffice it to say that a serious as opposed
12 to an inadvertent violation of an important
13 public health rule of the court system, such
14 as vaccination or masking, would subject a
15 judge to review by the Commission on Judicial
16 Conduct. And in fact the Office of Court
17 Administration has publicly said that it
18 would refer judges who don't abide by those
19 rules to the commission.
20 Now, I can't get into the individual
21 details, but this is something that in my
22 experience suggests that Judge Marks and OCA
23 are taking seriously, and I know the
24 commission is taking seriously.
173
1 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you,
2 Mr. Tembeckjian. Thank you, Madam Chair.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you,
4 Mr. Chair.
5 Assemblywoman Weinstein.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We go to the
7 chair of our Judiciary Committee,
8 Charles Lavine.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Thanks, Chair
10 Weinstein.
11 So Mr. Tembeckjian, it's always good
12 to see you. As someone who --
13 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: And you,
14 you've had a busier year than I have with the
15 ethics matters, haven't you?
16 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Which may be
17 good. Which may be good for you.
18 But as former chair of the Legislative
19 Ethics Commission and chair of the Assembly
20 Ethics Committee and presently chair of the
21 Judiciary Committee who had responsibility
22 for the investigation of the former governor
23 and the report, I want you to know something
24 that I know you know, which is that I have
174
1 great respect for what the Judicial Conduct
2 Commission does and what you do for the
3 Judicial Conduct Commission and for all the
4 people of the State of New York.
5 Number two -- but I only have three,
6 but this is the second one. Number two, I
7 share with you a sense of joy at the fact
8 that the commission's budget is being
9 substantially increased this year. And that
10 is a good thing for everyone in New York.
11 But what I want to ask you is this.
12 In the age of the pandemic, which is
13 affecting each and every one of us, even the
14 people who seem to think there is no
15 pandemic -- but which is affecting each and
16 every one of us, and we're now about two
17 years into it, just about -- but have the
18 number of cases that have come before the
19 commission increased? And if so -- compared
20 to the prior years. And if so, can you
21 associate any of the conduct with stresses of
22 the pandemic?
23 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: The raw
24 number of cases is more or less static. I
175
1 think in five of the last six years we have
2 averaged over 1900 complaints a year. Last
3 year was the -- two years ago, 2020, was the
4 only year where we dipped under 1900, and
5 that was -- we still had over 1500. And that
6 was I think significantly attributable to the
7 early effects of the pandemic and the fact
8 that the court system was in, let's say,
9 hiatus for several months.
10 But otherwise we're back up to norms
11 this past year. We had over 1900 in 2021,
12 and that's pretty much usual.
13 We're not seeing any different
14 distribution in the subject matter of these
15 complaints than usual. The range has more or
16 less been steady. I can't really say that
17 we've seen that the stresses of the pandemic
18 have been responsible either for changes in
19 judicial behavior or among those who are
20 making complaints. And it's understandable,
21 because there's a lot of stress involved even
22 without the pandemic in -- for all the
23 participants in judicial proceedings, from
24 judges and court staff down to the litigants.
176
1 And in certain places, such as Family Court,
2 where the stakes are more volatile, there is
3 a natural built-in stress to the process.
4 But the pandemic per se, I can't
5 say -- from what we've seen so far, I can't
6 say that the pandemic has been responsible
7 for any greater proportion of our complaints
8 than the ordinary stresses of litigation.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Thank you very
10 much. I have no further questions.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
12 Senate, do you have --
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. I
14 think we have Senator Palumbo.
15 SENATOR PALUMBO: Thank you,
16 Madam Chair. I was up and down with my hand.
17 I was contemplating. But it's always nice to
18 talk to Robert here. Good to see you again.
19 How are you?
20 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Likewise,
21 thank you.
22 SENATOR PALUMBO: So my question
23 was -- it's more of a hypothetical. So I was
24 thinking, as you were speaking earlier about
177
1 disciplinary rules and your disciplinary
2 concerns with some judges, I'm sure -- or how
3 do you reconcile situations where a judge is
4 particularly reluctant to go along with the
5 positions of a district attorney? Obviously
6 they have discretion. We see what's going on
7 in Manhattan now with some proclamations as
8 to how they're going to proceed.
9 I'm almost thinking in the other
10 direction. When a DA is too heavy-handed
11 according to a judge's liking, have you had
12 any situations where there were ethics
13 concerns? And I'm thinking -- that's what
14 made me think of kind of an odd question, but
15 either the judge was trying to do what they
16 could outside of the parameters of, say,
17 someone's a prior felony offender, and it's
18 an indicted felony. They can only give them
19 a felony. They cannot reduce it to a
20 misdemeanor in that example. But judges were
21 doing what they could to possibly get around
22 the Criminal Procedure Law or the Penal Law.
23 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: We have
24 not seen instances where -- not typically,
178
1 anyway. There has been an odd case here or
2 there over the years in which judges seem to
3 be working hand in hand with law enforcement
4 as opposed to being independent arbiters of
5 the cases.
6 One of the matters that I alluded to
7 earlier, which was some years ago, involved a
8 city court judge who was setting punitive
9 bail, literally -- and shocking to hear --
10 $25,000 for bicycle equipment violations.
11 Which is not even a violation of law. Riding
12 your bike on the sidewalk without a warning
13 device, meaning a bell, is not punishable as
14 a crime.
15 But there were several defendants
16 brought into court on such charges. They
17 were all indigent. And the judge set $25,000
18 bail. They were remanded. And a week later,
19 a week later after being in custody, they
20 were given the option of pleading guilty and
21 being sentenced to time served. And by the
22 way, a week in jail is not an authorized
23 penalty for riding your bike without a bell.
24 That judge was removed from office.
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1 There is that rare case where it does happen.
2 More often than not, what we see are
3 judges who -- through social media or other
4 public forums, allying themselves with law
5 enforcement by liking tweets that promote
6 police causes or the prosecution of certain
7 cases, failing to appreciate that remaining
8 neutral is an obligation, and appearing to
9 remain neutral is an obligation regardless of
10 the medium.
11 So if you can't say it personally, you
12 shouldn't say it on social media. The
13 disciplinary result is going to be the same.
14 And we have had disciplines, including
15 censure and some resignations of judges who
16 have publicly aligned themselves with one
17 side of the criminal justice system as
18 opposed to honoring their obligation to
19 remain neutral.
20 That's usually where we see the
21 crossing of the line.
22 SENATOR PALUMBO: Thank you. And I'd
23 expect you could also see in the other
24 direction as well --
180
1 (Inaudible overtalk.)
2 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: On
3 occasion we do. Yes, we do. We absolutely
4 do.
5 SENATOR PALUMBO: Great. Well, thank
6 you again.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
8 Assemblywoman Cook and Assemblywoman
9 Byrnes have joined the meeting -- the
10 hearing, and we go to Assemblywoman Walker.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Thank you,
12 Robert, for your insightful testimony.
13 So Judge Marks indicated that there
14 was a finding that there was bias and
15 discrimination that was found throughout the
16 court systems of New York. Is there any
17 indication as to a timeline for the number of
18 bias and/or discrimination complaints that
19 you've received? And how has your office
20 worked with the Office of Court
21 Administration to address those biases?
22 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Typically,
23 if the OCA inspector general finds evidence
24 in some court system inquiry of bias by a
181
1 judge, they refer that to the commission. We
2 also get complaints of bias from third
3 parties. And we also, on occasion, come
4 across it on our own in the course of
5 investigating other misconduct.
6 We have an annual report that
7 indicates in chart form at the back of the
8 book a breakdown of the subject matter of
9 complaints, so that we can actually trace the
10 number of bias complaints, the number of
11 demeanor complaints and so forth that come in
12 in any given year, and report on the action
13 that's taken.
14 It's been relatively constant in the
15 last few years. But we have, in the last
16 several years, either removed or negotiated
17 the resignation of judges who have publicly
18 made biased statements against the LGBTQ
19 community, against the Black community,
20 against women. We've had several public
21 decisions where judges were either removed or
22 forced to resign. For example, we had one
23 case involving a judge in deep upstate
24 New York, near the Canadian border --
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1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Can you speak a
2 little bit more about the judge -- the
3 Surrogate's Court judge in Brooklyn? Because
4 I think that's also a huge concern.
5 Because once a judge is censured or
6 removed, what happens to that person's court
7 case? Is that person allowed to just sort
8 sit in limbo for the remainder of their term?
9 Like what -- what happens in those
10 situations?
11 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Well, I
12 don't want to speak specifically about the
13 Brooklyn surrogate.
14 But in general, whether it's
15 Surrogate's Court, criminal court or anywhere
16 else, if a judge's caseload has been removed
17 because there is serious pending allegations
18 of misconduct, typically what the chief
19 administrative judge will do, either directly
20 or through one of his deputies, is to order
21 an acting judge to take the place of the one
22 whose caseload has been removed. So that
23 those cases will not languish, there will be
24 some other judge who comes in with authority
183
1 to do this.
2 In the same way that in a perfectly
3 innocent situation it might be the case --
4 if, for example, a judge takes ill or if a
5 judge must step aside from a case because a
6 family member is involved, the Office of
7 Court Administration has the authority -- the
8 chief administrative judge has the authority
9 to make a corrective assignment. So that
10 those cases should now be addressed.
11 If the situation were or the complaint
12 were that the judge was not doing the job,
13 and so the cases were taken away from that
14 judge, they would be given to someone else
15 who can take the job. And there have been
16 public reports in Brooklyn of that having
17 happened.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Well, I was
19 asking what happens to the judge. Does she
20 just -- well, do they just sit and languish
21 on the state payroll? Like what happens with
22 that particular person?
23 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Two things
24 would occur. One is the commission would
184
1 investigate. Because clearly the failure to
2 perform the duties of the office is spelled
3 out in the Constitution as a basis for a
4 judge to be disciplined. And secondly -- but
5 this is less often the case, because the
6 Constitution narrowly limits the authority to
7 suspend a judge.
8 The Judicial Conduct Commission has no
9 authority to suspend a judge. Only the Court
10 of Appeals can suspend a judge, but only in
11 very, very limited circumstances. So if a
12 caseload is taken away from a judge for
13 failure to do the job, the commission would
14 investigate and potentially discipline,
15 including the option of removing the judge
16 from office.
17 But until then, there's no means in
18 New York to stop the salary of that judge or
19 to remove that judge from office. We have to
20 go through the disciplinary process. And as
21 Senator Hoylman's question pointed out, that
22 process by law is confidential until there is
23 a result.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
185
1 We've been joined by Assemblywoman
2 Joyner.
3 I'm going to send it back to the
4 Senate. I believe there are no further
5 questions on our side.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
7 much, Chair Weinstein.
8 I just have one final question for
9 you, Robert. I'm always shocked when I learn
10 that there are judges in New York State who
11 never went to law school. Do you think we
12 need to change this law?
13 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: To be
14 clear, the town and village courts -- which
15 are not courts of record under the
16 Constitution -- may be populated by
17 individuals who are not law trained or are
18 not admitted to the bar. Of the
19 approximately 2100 or so town and village
20 court justices in New York, about 1400 are
21 not attorneys. And over the years, I think a
22 statistical analysis of the commission's
23 public disciplines would reveal that a
24 significant majority of our public
186
1 disciplines involve judges who are not
2 attorneys.
3 The commission has itself purposefully
4 never taken a position on this subject
5 because we don't want to be perceived -- or
6 we don't want our disciplines to be perceived
7 as having been motivated by a bias or a
8 predisposition that we shouldn't have
9 non-lawyer judges in New York.
10 I have a personal view on that subject
11 which I would be happy to share with you
12 privately. But institutionally, we've never
13 taken that position publicly for want of
14 undermining confidence in the disciplines
15 that we do impose.
16 And by the way, as our public record I
17 think would plainly illustrate, there is
18 almost no behavior for which we have
19 disciplined a non-lawyer judge for which we
20 haven't also disciplined lawyer judges.
21 Lawyer-trained judges as well as
22 non-lawyer-trained judges can engage in
23 misconduct. And when they do, we discipline
24 them without regard to whether or not they
187
1 hold a law degree.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
3 I mean, I'm not a lawyer. I don't
4 even think I should get involved in endorsing
5 judges because I didn't go to law school and
6 don't have an ability to judge whether
7 someone's qualified to be a judge or not. It
8 is always amazing to me that we allow people
9 who never even had to study the law to be the
10 judges in our courtrooms. So I know where I
11 stand on this. So I appreciate your -- if
12 not showing what your opinion is, your
13 research result is from your work on the
14 commission that clearly, statistically, we
15 end up with far greater problems brought to
16 your attention by people who sit on -- sit as
17 judges who were not trained in the law.
18 So thank you very much. And thank you
19 for your testimony here today and your
20 continuing good work on behalf of the people
21 of New York. Because if we can't have faith
22 in our courts, I don't know where else we can
23 go. So we need to have faith in our courts,
24 that and we need to police them correctly.
188
1 So thank you for your testimony and
2 your hard work, and we're going to excuse
3 you.
4 And we're going to invite I think
5 perhaps as of today our newest officially
6 confirmed nominee to a commissionership,
7 Jackie Bray, as the new head of the New York
8 State Division of Homeland Security and
9 Emergency Services.
10 Hi, Jackie.
11 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Hi, good
12 afternoon.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So I've been in
14 this hearing; I don't even know if we got to
15 the confirmation yet or not.
16 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Not yet.
17 Not yet. I'm acting commissioner as of this
18 hour still.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. Well, the
20 rumor is that will be completed as an
21 assignment later in the day.
22 Welcome to the budget hearing, your
23 first budget hearing. And please -- you have
24 10 minutes to give us your testimony.
189
1 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Thank you.
2 Well, I want to thank Chair Krueger
3 and Chair Weinstein and the distinguished
4 members of the joint committee. My name is
5 Jackie Bray. I am the acting commissioner of
6 the Division of Homeland Security and
7 Emergency Services. It's my honor to share
8 with you the accomplishments of our agency
9 and provide an overview of the Executive
10 Budget as it relates to our mission.
11 Division staff continue to work
12 tirelessly on COVID-19 response and recovery
13 efforts while performing their daily
14 emergency management duties, including
15 responding to extreme weather, natural
16 disasters, and providing training to first
17 responders.
18 The Executive Budget provides
19 necessary resources for the division to carry
20 out our mission of enhancing public safety
21 and to continue pandemic response. The total
22 agency appropriation in the Executive Budget
23 is $4.9 billion, which includes $32.5 million
24 in new appropriations. The Executive Budget
190
1 puts forth additional funding to build a new
2 Emergency Operations Center, expand the
3 division's cybersecurity capabilities, and
4 further improve our State Preparedness
5 Training Center.
6 The Executive Budget continues last
7 year's appropriation authority of
8 $4.15 billion, which will allow DHSES to
9 administer federal funding in New York State.
10 This funding supports COVID-19 response and
11 recovery efforts, including testing and
12 vaccination operations as well as other costs
13 associated with reopening public services
14 during the pandemic.
15 The division works directly with FEMA
16 and State, local and nonprofit applicants to
17 maximize federal funding to recover from
18 natural disasters and other emergencies,
19 including COVID-19. This past year there
20 were two federal Major Disaster Declarations
21 in New York: Tropical Storm Fred in August,
22 and Hurricane Ida in September. This
23 appropriation will also help deliver funding
24 to New York to rebuild and recover from the
191
1 impacts of these two storms.
2 Following the devastation of Hurricane
3 Ida, division staff worked with our federal
4 and local partners to quickly assess damages,
5 which ultimately led to the approval of
6 FEMA's Public Assistance Program for
7 13 counties. This partnership also resulted
8 in FEMA authorizing Individual Assistance
9 programs in New York State for the first time
10 since Superstorm Sandy. Through the
11 Individual Assistance Program, over
12 $195 million was directly provided to more
13 than 88,600 New Yorkers to help them recover
14 and rebuild.
15 The division also worked to secure
16 federal public assistance for nine counties
17 impacted by Tropical Storm Fred. While our
18 request for Individual Assistance was denied,
19 we continue to fight for Steuben County and
20 have obtained a Small Business Administration
21 Disaster Declaration that will provide
22 low-interest loans to homeowners and
23 businesses in Steuben.
24 Throughout the pandemic, the division
192
1 has managed and coordinated efforts to
2 address the many challenges presented by the
3 ongoing public health crisis, including
4 testing and vaccination operations, PPE
5 storage and distribution, and responding to
6 local requests for assistance. These are all
7 coordinated through the State Emergency
8 Operations Center, which has been
9 continuously operational since March of 2020.
10 Designed and built during the
11 Cold War, this underground fallout shelter is
12 outdated. It has real space and technology
13 limitations. Governor Hochul's budget puts
14 forth $25 million in capital funding for the
15 development of a modernized Emergency
16 Operations Center, which will absolutely
17 enhance the state's preparedness and response
18 capabilities.
19 Governor Hochul's proposed budget also
20 seeks to expand the Division's Cyber Incident
21 Response Team. Since 2018, the CIRT has
22 assisted local governments, school districts,
23 and non-Executive agencies through
24 assessments as well as direct incident
193
1 response support. In 2021, the CIRT
2 responded to all requests for assistance,
3 helping more than 50 local entities. Governor
4 Hochul's commitment to cybersecurity in the
5 budget will allow the CIRT to expand
6 preventative assessments, response
7 capabilities, and training.
8 The Executive Budget also allocates
9 $3 million for additional classroom space,
10 training space, a new auditorium and
11 technological upgrades at the SPTC in
12 Oriskany. Because of the Legislature's
13 approval and support of prior capital funding
14 over the last decade, the SPTC has added our
15 CityScape and our Swift-Water Training
16 Facilities, some of the most state-of-the-art
17 facilities across the country. This next
18 round of upgrades will continue to keep the
19 SPTC as a national leader in emergency
20 response training for our state, local and
21 national partners.
22 It's impossible to address all the
23 fantastic work of the division during this
24 testimony, but I appreciate the opportunity
194
1 to appear before the Senate and the Assembly
2 today. I look forward to our continued
3 partnership with the Legislature, and I'll
4 gladly take any questions you have at this
5 time.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
7 much.
8 I'm just looking to see who's raised
9 their hand, and I don't see any -- oh, good,
10 a Senator raised their hand. Thank you, Pat
11 Ritchie, because I wanted to be able to call
12 on a Senator first.
13 Senator Patricia Ritchie.
14 SENATOR RITCHIE: Thank you,
15 Chairwoman.
16 I just have a question about something
17 that happened at the New York State Academy
18 of Fire Science. We unfortunately had a
19 young firefighter who was killed there, and
20 your predecessor had assured us that your
21 agency would be commissioning an independent
22 investigation into the incident.
23 I'm just wondering, are you planning
24 to do that? Do you have financial resources
195
1 to do that? Or do you have an update, by any
2 chance, on this issue?
3 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Absolutely.
4 Thank you, Senator.
5 In March of 2021 there was a tragedy
6 that occurred at the State Fire Academy, and
7 there was a death of a firefighter recruit
8 during our recruit training program. There
9 are currently three independent
10 investigations, one of which has concluded,
11 the PESH investigation. There are two
12 additional independent investigations
13 ongoing, one by the State Police and one by
14 the CDC NIOSH.
15 I was briefed on this incident, on
16 this event on my first day on the job. I
17 directed my team to continue to fully
18 cooperate with all of the independent
19 investigations. And as soon as we have the
20 results of those independent investigations,
21 I'll be taking appropriate action.
22 SENATOR RITCHIE: Okay, I very much
23 appreciate this. You know, it's been very
24 difficult for the family and as time goes on,
196
1 it's, you know, made it even more difficult
2 to move on. So I appreciate that, and I'm
3 glad that you were briefed and you're going
4 to move ahead, and I'm sure the family will
5 be glad to hear that also. Thank you.
6 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Thank you.
7 And I should say my sympathies are
8 absolutely with the Morse family and the
9 community. And, you know, I -- it's an
10 unimaginable loss, and my thoughts are with
11 them.
12 SENATOR RITCHIE: Thank you very much.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 And because Assemblywoman Weinstein
15 had to step away for a few minutes, I'm going
16 to call on Ranker Ed Ra for a question, or
17 questions.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Great, thank you.
19 Just really one particular question.
20 You know, as I'm sure you're aware, you know,
21 with some of the recent incidents we've seen,
22 there's a recent federal Department of
23 Homeland Security and Federal Bureau of
24 Investigation announcement that faith-based
197
1 communities have been and will likely be
2 targets of violence. And I know there's hate
3 crime grant funding within the DCJS budget,
4 but I was wondering if within the Department
5 of Homeland Security if there are any
6 particular programs or funding in place to
7 try to prevent these types of incidents and
8 protect, you know, houses of worship and
9 other faith-based facilities that could be
10 targeted.
11 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Mm-hmm. So
12 you're absolutely right, the state hate
13 crimes program moved to DCJS last year, and
14 it remains in DCJS. That was in an effort to
15 expand the flexibility that our local
16 partners needed from that program.
17 At DHSES we continue to administer the
18 federal grants for the federal hate crimes
19 program. And in addition, I think we all
20 need to be clear-eyed about the fact that in
21 New York State, as is true across the
22 country, domestic violent extremism,
23 motivated by antisemitism and white supremacy
24 primarily, is on the rise and represents one
198
1 of the great terrorism threats that we face
2 today.
3 And so this agency administers about
4 $250 million worth of Homeland Security
5 grants, and I think that more and more of
6 that money over the past couple of years, and
7 certainly moving forward, will go to make
8 sure that our local law enforcement is
9 prepared for these domestic violent
10 extremists and for the new evolving threat.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay, well, thank you
12 for that. I know certainly, you know, I've
13 had local facilities, particularly within the
14 Jewish faith, reach out looking -- over the
15 past, you know, really decade, looking for
16 support for grants and things of that nature.
17 So, you know, definitely a continuing
18 concern for all of us with these events
19 unfortunately continuing to happen. So
20 thank you.
21 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Thank you.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
23 Senator Tom O'Mara.
24 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you, Chairwoman
199
1 Krueger.
2 And Commissioner Bray, thanks for
3 being with us again.
4 My question is a brief one. And we
5 have spoken directly on the Tropical Storm
6 Fred disaster that hit Steuben County back in
7 August, and the denial of individual
8 assistance aid by FEMA.
9 I see in the budget, in the Aid to
10 Localities, there's a $4 million
11 appropriation, I believe is the amount. Is
12 that something that could be utilized by the
13 state should the Legislature and the Governor
14 approve providing some individual assistance
15 aid from the state, since the feds are not
16 doing that?
17 We have certainly a track record of
18 past disasters where that type of assistance
19 has been provided directly by the states, and
20 I'm just wondering, from your perspective,
21 where those funds could be found if approved
22 for that, and where they should be in the
23 budget, if they're not in there right now,
24 for something like that.
200
1 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: So let me
2 say I share your frustration and
3 disappointment that the feds didn't approve
4 the individual assistance for Steuben and for
5 Tropical Storm Fred. I thought they should
6 have done that, and I'm very sorry that they
7 didn't and frustrated that they didn't.
8 DHSES does not have an appropriation
9 at this time that could support state funding
10 to replace that federal funding. It's our
11 job at DHSES to maximize the federal dollars
12 we can bring in, and I am glad that we got
13 public assistance after Tropical Storm Fred,
14 and I'm also glad that we got the Small
15 Business Administration's low-interest loan
16 program for homeowners and small business
17 owners. But we don't have an appropriation
18 for the type of individual assistance you're
19 talking about.
20 SENATOR O'MARA: Would that not be
21 able to come out of that $4 million
22 appropriation that's in the Aid to Localities
23 if the Governor chose to utilize it that way,
24 or a portion of that?
201
1 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: I don't
2 believe it would. That appropriation
3 specifically is a federal pass-through
4 appropriation and not designed for state
5 funding. But I'm happy to continue that
6 conversation with you.
7 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you. That's
8 all I have.
9 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Thank you.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Chair Weinstein.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes, we go to
12 Assemblyman Burdick.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you very
14 much.
15 And thank you for your testimony, and
16 congratulations for your appointment. And I
17 appreciate your testimony about what your
18 agency is doing to try to help recover from
19 natural disasters. And I represent a portion
20 of Westchester County, which got hit pretty
21 hard by Hurricane Ida. And the federal
22 infrastructure bill appropriates a huge
23 amount of money to FEMA, and I'm wondering
24 the extent to which some of those monies --
202
1 which I understand are still in the process
2 of being distributed to the states -- might
3 be coming to New York State and the extent to
4 which you see it coming into Westchester
5 County.
6 I'm working very closely with a couple
7 of my municipalities and would love to see
8 what might be available, because I assume
9 that your agency is going to be involved in
10 that.
11 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Yes, thank
12 you.
13 So the first thing I would point to is
14 we just released a Notice of Funding
15 Opportunity for about $315 million worth of
16 hazard mitigation funds for FEMA. That
17 wasn't based specifically on the Ida
18 disaster, but that's a funding opportunity
19 currently on the street. We expect to
20 release a hazard mitigation funding
21 opportunity for Ida and for Fred in the
22 coming weeks, so those opportunities will be
23 out there for counties.
24 I do think it's essential that we as a
203
1 state maximize the amount of money that we
2 have coming out of these infrastructure
3 bills. This is a little orthogonal to your
4 question, but there is a pot of about
5 $429 million that's going to the National
6 Water Centers, specifically to increase what
7 they call hyperspectral -- think of that as
8 very high resolution -- urban and suburban
9 area flood mapping for inland rain events,
10 that should increase our preparedness.
11 So there's I think a number of pots of
12 money, and we do have our eyes on all of
13 them.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: And I'm sorry to
15 cut you off here; I have very little time.
16 Do you expect more money to be
17 becoming available, and so further as we
18 proceed in the year into next year, more
19 funding opportunities to be made available by
20 your agency? And do you see any of that
21 being made available to towns and villages,
22 not just counties?
23 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Yes. We are
24 waiting for FEMA to release those
204
1 opportunities, but we certainly expect them.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Any idea about
3 how much, the magnitude?
4 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: I don't have
5 the magnitude yet for New York State, but I'm
6 happy to follow up with you as we learn.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: If you could,
8 that would be wonderful.
9 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Absolutely.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: I'm working with
11 a number of my Westchester colleagues on the
12 issue that I posed to you, so -- thank you
13 very much for your good work. Appreciate it.
14 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Thank you.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
16 I don't believe there are any more
17 Senators, Assemblywoman.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So let us go to
19 Assemblywoman Rajkumar.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN RAJKUMAR: Thank you.
21 And congratulations, Commissioner
22 Bray, on your appointment.
23 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Thank you.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN RAJKUMAR: In June the
205
1 New York City Law Department was the victim
2 of a cyberattack. I'm a senior advisor to
3 Mayor Eric Adams' transition team, and
4 interestingly, he stated that while
5 discussing the transition with Bill de
6 Blasio, the outgoing mayor told him, "COVID
7 is a problem, but the real problem we're
8 facing is cybersecurity."
9 There are approximately, as you know,
10 2,800 non-executive agencies, local
11 governments and public authorities, with
12 which the Department of Homeland Security's
13 Cyber Incident Response Team is tasked to
14 provide cybersecurity services. However, a
15 report from the State Comptroller's office
16 found that CIRT was reaching only a small
17 percentage of these entities, had only
18 offered five sessions on phishing emails,
19 only conducted 11 risk assessments for
20 entities from August 2019 through 2020. And
21 moreover, most of the team's work is by
22 request instead of proactively evaluating
23 systems and educating the government
24 entities.
206
1 So my question for you is, do you
2 believe that CIRT has the capability to
3 support the cybersecurity of 2,800 government
4 entities? And if not, how can we help and
5 what additional resources would you need?
6 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Thank you
7 for the question.
8 So it's clear that we need far greater
9 investment in cybersecurity across the board.
10 That's why I'm so happy that Governor Hochul
11 has increased our cybersecurity in this
12 Executive Budget by $44 million. That
13 includes additional money for DHSES,
14 4.5 million additional directly to DHSES
15 specifically to increase our proactive
16 security assessments for our non-executive
17 agencies, our localities, our counties, and
18 to make sure that we can continue to respond
19 to any calls we get, the CIRT response to a
20 hundred percent of the requests for help we
21 get, and to increase those training programs
22 that you mentioned, the training sessions
23 that you mentioned.
24 But critically, it also for the first
207
1 time appropriates money for shared services
2 for localities. So that DHSES, working in
3 partnership with ITS, will be able to offer
4 localities the type of end-point detection
5 and incursion detection and protection that
6 they want, if they choose to opt in.
7 So I agree with you there's more work
8 to be done, but this budget is a big,
9 important first step.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN RAJKUMAR: Great. Thank
11 you so much for your good work.
12 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Thank you.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So we go to
14 Assemblyman Walczyk, I believe is our final
15 questioner.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Thank you,
17 Chairwoman.
18 And congratulations on your
19 appointment, Commissioner.
20 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Thank you.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Sort of
22 following up on what Senator Ritchie brought
23 to your attention, I appreciate your
24 cooperation with any investigation that has
208
1 to do with Peyton Morse's death, which was
2 tragic.
3 Were you able to read the PESH report?
4 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Yes.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Any reaction,
6 sort of as a commissioner who obviously
7 doesn't want to see this happen to any
8 recruit under your care ever again? Any
9 reaction to that report?
10 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Yeah. So
11 let me say you're absolutely right. I think
12 that this is a tragedy and we always want to
13 take every step we can to increase safety and
14 to protect anyone that's training at either
15 of our major training facilities.
16 You know, the PESH report found no
17 violation of current health and safety
18 standards, but they did make a handful of
19 recommendations about how to improve -- how
20 to help our recruits report any injuries or
21 illness they might be experiencing and how to
22 make sure that our Fire Academy meets the
23 standards that we set for ourselves. And
24 we're taking those recommendations and
209
1 working them in as we move forward.
2 So, you know, reading the PESH report
3 for me was about making sure that I was
4 taking this incident as seriously as it
5 deserves to be taken, and that I understood
6 from an independent perspective what happened
7 that day.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: I appreciate
9 that. And I brought this up with your
10 predecessor. Have you had the opportunity or
11 have you taken the opportunity to call the
12 family?
13 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: The family
14 reached out to me with -- through a letter.
15 I have responded to that letter. I
16 understand the family has retained counsel,
17 and I want to respect the process that the
18 family is engaged in. But if they wanted to
19 talk to me, I would be absolutely happy to
20 talk to them.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: I think it might
22 go a long way.
23 Shifting gears -- and I appreciate the
24 continued dialogue on that topic -- on
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1 January 13th I sent you a letter about
2 fraudulent testing kits and masks that have
3 been in circulation in some cases. When
4 should I expect a response on that?
5 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Well, sir,
6 your letter in mid-January was about masks
7 that were sent out -- we've sent well over
8 30 million masks out. In the last month
9 alone, we've sent over 6 million. Less than
10 5 percent of them, when they arrived in the
11 counties, were found to be counterfeit.
12 These were masks that were bought in the
13 spring of 2020 and were reviewed at that time
14 by the Department of Health. We have an
15 ongoing process to bring legal action against
16 any of the vendors that have provided the
17 state over the past two years with any
18 counterfeit goods, and these masks certainly
19 triggered that.
20 I will say I believe the ones that you
21 were holding up in the photo were 3M masks.
22 That's an incredibly high-quality brand of
23 mask. So I wouldn't worry about the masks
24 that you got. But I think the reference is
211
1 to some masks that were sent -- less than
2 5 percent in the last month. We've gotten
3 those masks back and have replaced them for
4 the counties that got them.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: I see that I'm
6 out of time.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
8 We now have Assemblyman Palmesano to
9 ask a question.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Yes,
11 Commissioner, thanks for your time. And I
12 apologize, this is probably repeating a
13 little bit of what Senator O'Mara asked
14 earlier -- I wasn't there when he asked --
15 relative to the FEMA reimbursements to
16 localities of $4 billion. And it's my
17 understanding it's the same level as last
18 year's. It goes to -- you know, for
19 disasters that happened, and it's to
20 reimburse localities.
21 So is this funding available? I mean,
22 I know maybe it's -- we had terrible flooding
23 in Steuben County that received a FEMA
24 disaster declaration, which would be
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1 75 percent from the federal government, and
2 then it's a 12.5 percent state share,
3 12.5 percent local share.
4 Isn't this funding available at the
5 discretion of the administration, working
6 with your office and the Legislature, to be
7 able to use this funding, this $4 billion
8 that's there to provide to pick up the local
9 share for those local municipalities? As
10 there is precedent for, it's been back as far
11 as Sandy, Lee, Irene, Yates County in 2014,
12 Lake Ontario flooding.
13 Isn't this something, if worked out
14 with the Governor's office and DHSES -- which
15 you guys have been very helpful, your office
16 and staff, which we appreciate it. Isn't
17 there something that can be done to their --
18 when it talks about reimbursements for
19 locals, whether it's a pass-through or not,
20 that can be allocated to provide that
21 assistance to pick up that local share for
22 these communities that were affected by
23 particularly Tropical Storm Fred on
24 August 18th? I know Ida in New York City was
213
1 another one.
2 I mean, isn't that -- this funding
3 available for that purpose that could be
4 used? Or is there a way to make it work
5 under those circumstances?
6 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: So the
7 $4.15 billion appropriation specific for FEMA
8 is really only for federal pass-through
9 dollars. And for Steuben and Fred
10 specifically, obviously we've got the public
11 assistance money coming and the Small
12 Business Administration loans.
13 As I've said to Senator O'Mara and I
14 will say to you, I want to come out and see
15 the damage. Let's arrange to do that
16 quickly. And I understand that there's real
17 pain there and that people lost property, and
18 we should continue the conversation. But
19 that 4.15 billion, that's unfortunately just
20 for the federal dollars to come to the state.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: That would be
22 like putting the -- if that's the -- that
23 total storm was like $36 million, that would
24 be like to cover that 75 percent of local
214
1 share, the $27 million, which would be the
2 federal share, possibly.
3 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: It would
4 cover that and then the COVID dollars that we
5 expect to be flowing this coming year.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: But we would
7 welcome you to come out to see what happened
8 there, and it was disastrous.
9 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Yeah.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Jasper-
11 Troupsburg School was decimated. You see
12 videos of the flood coming, breaching the
13 doors. I mean, homeowners and businesses
14 were decimated.
15 And we've been pushing, and we want to
16 see the state provide individual assistance
17 because the federal government failed and did
18 not provide that individual assistance. And
19 there's precedent for the state providing
20 direct grant assistance to individuals and
21 businesses over the past storms Lee, Irene,
22 Sandy, Lake Ontario, Yates County flooding.
23 So we want to push on that front too,
24 because these individuals -- they announced
215
1 SBA grants. They don't need grants, they
2 need loans {sic}. And this is an area that
3 needs that help.
4 So you coming out there would really
5 send I think a positive message and hopefully
6 we can make the case to the administration
7 that they need to provide that direct
8 assistance, both on picking up the local
9 share for -- and not just for Steuben County,
10 other counties -- pick up that local share
11 for those communities that were decimated and
12 devastated by this flooding. And also to
13 provide direct grant assistance to
14 individuals and businesses who were also
15 impacted.
16 So we would welcome to have you come
17 up there to see the devastation of the
18 schools, see the devastation of those
19 communities. It's been five months, and they
20 haven't really received anything yet, and
21 they -- they need help.
22 Thank you.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
24 Thank you. So I do not believe -- at this
216
1 moment we do not have any further speakers.
2 Thank you, Commissioner Bray, for
3 being here, and congratulations also on your
4 appointment.
5 So the Senate?
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes, Commissioner
7 Bray, thank you for being with us today.
8 Of course the Senate Finance Committee
9 had an opportunity to interview you
10 extensively yesterday, so I think we didn't
11 have enough time to come up with more
12 questions today. And so thank you and good
13 luck to you. Thank you.
14 DHSES COMMISSIONER BRAY: Thank you.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: All right, the
16 next testifier will be Rossana Rosado,
17 New York State DCJS, the new commissioner --
18 although many of us know her as our previous
19 Secretary of State.
20 Commissioner, are you here with us?
21 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I am. Can
22 you see me?
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you, yes,
24 we can now. Welcome. You have up to
217
1 10 minutes to offer your testimony. We'll be
2 listening.
3 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Thank you.
4 Good afternoon, Chairs Krueger and
5 Weinstein, legislative fiscal committee
6 members, and other distinguished members of
7 the Legislature. I am Rossana Rosado, acting
8 commissioner of the Division of Criminal
9 Justice Services. Thank you for the
10 opportunity to be with you today to discuss
11 Governor Kathy Hochul's fiscal year '22-'23
12 budget for DCJS.
13 Before I begin, I would like to take a
14 moment to share my heartfelt condolences with
15 the families of the fallen and wounded
16 officers from this past weekend's tragedy,
17 and the extended family of the New York City
18 Police Department. As the Governor
19 expressed, we are here to fully support our
20 city partners in any way.
21 While I know many of you from my
22 previous position as Secretary of State, I
23 wanted to share a little about myself before
24 outlining how the Executive Budget expands
218
1 the critical work of DCJS.
2 I joined the agency eight weeks ago,
3 after serving as Secretary of State since
4 2016. I chaired the state's Council on
5 Community Re-Entry and Reintegration since
6 2014.
7 I came to state service after a
8 30-year career in media, including as CEO of
9 El Diario La Prensa, the nation's oldest and
10 largest Spanish-language newspaper. As a
11 journalist, I got to hear and share stories
12 about society's most vulnerable. Those
13 experiences shaped my life and inspired me to
14 earn a master's degree in criminal justice
15 from John Jay College. I also taught at
16 John Jay College and in four of New York
17 State's prisons.
18 Now, this leadership role at DCJS and
19 the Governor's proposed budget provide a
20 tremendous opportunity to positively impact
21 the state's criminal justice system.
22 Later this year, DCJS will mark its
23 50th anniversary. We have continued to
24 evolve with the criminal justice system and
219
1 gained invaluable experience working with
2 each and every stakeholder. We also have the
3 knowledge to see where the system has been,
4 where it is now in a moment of change, and
5 the vision to help guide it forward. That is
6 the very mission of DCJS: to enhance public
7 safety by providing resources and services
8 that inform decision-making and improve the
9 quality of the criminal justice system.
10 The work of talented professionals at
11 DCJS, often in partnership with state and
12 local colleagues, has advanced New York
13 toward a more fair, equitable, and efficient
14 justice system. New York is the safest large
15 state in the country and maintains the lowest
16 rate of incarceration. However, our work is
17 unfinished. Our statewide progress has not
18 been shared across all of our neighborhoods.
19 We know that communities of color are
20 disproportionately affected by violence.
21 Just as New York's recovery from the
22 COVID-19 pandemic has been challenging, so
23 too have the persistent issues of gun
24 violence and violent crime. While overall
220
1 reported crime remains near its statewide
2 historic low, we have seen a surge of gun
3 violence within our state and across the
4 country, in the wake of the pandemic and
5 social unrest in 2020. Preliminary data from
6 2021 reveal a continued decrease in overall
7 crime but a slight increase in violent crime,
8 indicating that we have not returned to a
9 pre-pandemic state.
10 While last year's data are still being
11 finalized, we estimate there will be more
12 than 800 homicides statewide for the second
13 consecutive year. This has not happened
14 since 2008. This trend mirrors the nation,
15 where homicides increased by 29 percent in
16 2020 -- the largest one-year increase on
17 record. Alarmingly, more than three out of
18 every four of those homicides involved a
19 firearm.
20 In response to the continued epidemic
21 of gun violence in 2021, Governor Hochul
22 extended a disaster emergency, which
23 leveraged interagency resources and expedited
24 funding. This allowed DCJS to administer
221
1 $8.3 million to support 129 new positions
2 within hospitals and community-based
3 organizations that participate in the SNUG
4 Street Outreach Program and the New York City
5 violence interruption network.
6 The Governor's proposed budget
7 provides DCJS with an additional
8 $100 million. This significant investment
9 will allow us to provide law enforcement and
10 communities with resources, programs and
11 strategies to better address the persistent
12 problem of crime. This budget also continues
13 our agency's evidence-based and innovative
14 practices that have been nationally
15 recognized, placing New York at the forefront
16 of public safety in the nation.
17 To support our law enforcement
18 partners, DCJS will invest $18.2 million in
19 our Gun-Involved Violence Elimination
20 initiative, known as GIVE, and $15 million in
21 our Crime Analysis Center network. These
22 investments reflect a combined increase of
23 $10.7 million and will provide local law
24 enforcement agencies with resources to solve
222
1 gun crimes, build community trust and
2 relationships, and expand an evidence-based
3 community supervision model.
4 To support our communities, DCJS will
5 provide $24.9 million to support street
6 outreach and violence interruption throughout
7 New York. This commitment sustains emergency
8 funding from 2021 and provides an additional
9 $6.1 million to add gun violence prevention
10 specialists within hospitals, expand the SNUG
11 program to three new cities, provide
12 wraparound social and employment services,
13 and recruit and retain outreach workers.
14 The division will also provide
15 $20 million for collaborative programs in the
16 areas hardest hit by gun violence. This
17 funding will foster new partnerships between
18 government and community organizations, with
19 the goal of repairing and rebuilding
20 neighborhoods by meeting the complex needs of
21 individuals and families living in those
22 communities.
23 To support the successful reentry of
24 justice-involved people, the Governor's
223
1 proposed budget includes the Clean Slate Act,
2 which would seal certain criminal history
3 records after the completion of a sentence,
4 including any incarceration or supervision
5 and a defined period of time -- seven years
6 for a felony, three years for a misdemeanor.
7 The Governor also announced a new
8 Jails to Jobs initiative, which includes a
9 plan for DCJS to train Department of
10 Corrections and Community Supervision parole
11 officers on a comprehensive employment
12 curriculum to better support each person's
13 return home and transition to the workforce.
14 Recognizing that recent pretrial
15 reforms were implemented without dedicated
16 resources from the state, this Executive
17 Budget also provides $10 million to support
18 pretrial services outside of New York City.
19 This funding, paired with the existing
20 resources, will expand the continuum of these
21 services, including screening and
22 assessments, supervision, case management,
23 and information-sharing with the court
24 system.
224
1 Finally, the proposed budget includes
2 another round of the Securing Communities
3 Against Hate Crimes grant program within
4 DCJS, providing up to $25 million to
5 safeguard New York's not-for-profit
6 organizations at risk of hate crimes or
7 attack.
8 At DCJS, public safety is paramount.
9 We look forward to building upon our
10 evidence-based work, strengthening
11 police-community relationships, and enhancing
12 the capabilities of our local partners to
13 reduce crime and save lives.
14 Thank you for your support and time
15 today. I look forward to answering any
16 questions you may have.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
18 much.
19 I don't see a Senate hand yet, so I'm
20 going to actually start with a couple of my
21 own questions as chair. So thank you very
22 much, Commissioner.
23 So you talked about your role as sort
24 of an agency that tries to pull together the
225
1 siloes of different criminal justice
2 agencies. And certainly from New York City,
3 currently much of the conversation is about
4 people with mental illness behaving
5 dangerously in public and ending up being
6 thrown into Rikers -- perhaps before they do
7 something heinous, or after, but clearly the
8 services we intended to provide the people
9 who suffer from mental illness and act out in
10 ways that are dangerous to themselves and
11 others, you know, are inadequate at best.
12 Does your agency have any role or can
13 it have any role in expansion and improvement
14 of these programs -- I believe that are
15 called AOT?
16 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Senator, I
17 don't believe that DCJS has a direct role in
18 that. I think that is an issue for OMH. I'd
19 be happy to look into that for you.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So you don't see
21 a role for yourself in trying to help figure
22 out why we simply don't have the right
23 services or aren't getting them, you know,
24 through the court system. Because my
226
1 understanding is that AOT is something that
2 you might be assigned into when you are
3 arrested or when you are ready for parole.
4 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I see
5 ourselves in a role to help everyone in the
6 criminal justice system figure these things
7 out. We don't have a direct role right now
8 when it comes to issues of mental health.
9 And I'd have to do a deeper dive on that
10 specific issue in Rikers and the city and in
11 mental health.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay, thank you.
13 I hope you will because I think this issue
14 is -- it crosses mental health lines, it
15 crosses criminal justice lines. It's clearly
16 a major concern for public protection, you
17 know, I think throughout the state but
18 certainly in my city at this point in time.
19 You also talked about, you know, the
20 research component of the Office of Criminal
21 Justice. So at one point in time the state
22 passed a law that required the tracking of
23 guns and even a database on bullets that was
24 never actually implemented. Are you familiar
227
1 with that law, and do you see a role for your
2 agency at this time in that?
3 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I am
4 familiar with that you're referring to. I
5 think that is mostly State Police.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You think it is
7 State Police. But you do research and
8 tracking of criminal justice data, is that
9 correct?
10 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: That's
11 correct.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And do you do any
13 tracking of gun crimes or guns?
14 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Yes. Yes,
15 we do.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And what is that
17 that you do?
18 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Well, we do
19 collect the data and we post that data. We
20 do that in -- you know, in collaboration with
21 the individual police agencies. And we use
22 that data to help both folks on the local
23 level and at the state level, you know, work
24 on solutions. And we post it, you know, for
228
1 the public, we try to track that.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. So perhaps
3 my primary question is then for State Police
4 a little later in the hearing today. All
5 right, thank you.
6 Assemblywoman Weinstein.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to our
8 chair of Codes, Assemblyman Dinowitz.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Okay, thank you
10 very much.
11 Good afternoon.
12 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Good
13 afternoon.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: One of the
15 issues which remained unresolved in the last
16 session dealt with Clean Slate. We had a --
17 I guess a two-way agreement between the
18 Assembly and the Senate. Assemblymember Cruz
19 sponsors the bill in the Assembly.
20 There is a Clean Slate proposal in the
21 Executive Budget, as you alluded to. But
22 while both proposals contain the three- and
23 seven-year waiting periods, under the
24 legislative proposal those waiting periods
229
1 would begin to run when a person is released
2 from custody, but on the Executive proposal
3 it will begin to run upon the expiration of
4 the maximum sentence imposed by the court,
5 regardless of when the person is released
6 from custody.
7 Those two dates could be very
8 different dates. There could be years in
9 between. And I was wondering if you could
10 comment on that and why that aspect of the
11 two proposals is so radically different.
12 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Well, I can
13 tell you that we are ready, you know, to
14 implement Clean Slate as it is passed by the
15 Legislature. We're ready to implement --
16 implement whichever one of those -- we are
17 ready to implement.
18 I think one of our -- not so much a
19 concern, but we'd like to do it as quickly as
20 possible, and we believe we're prepared. We
21 believe in this -- in this. We estimate
22 there are about 2 million records that we can
23 seal immediately upon passing that
24 legislation.
230
1 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Okay. So let
2 me just make sure I understand this. If the
3 Assembly and the Senate pass the bills as is,
4 let's say, next week, it's your opinion that
5 that would likely be signed into law then, as
6 opposed to waiting for the -- with the
7 proposal in the Executive Budget?
8 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I think it
9 has to be in the Executive Budget in order to
10 be passed.
11 Upon -- you know, as soon as we have
12 the green light to implement, we're ready to
13 seal, and we estimate it will be 2 million
14 right at the start.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Okay. Well, I
16 mean --
17 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: We have the
18 ability to do that rather quickly.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Right. I mean
20 certainly there may be costs attached, but I
21 think some of us believe as a general rule
22 that major policy decisions such as this
23 would be best done not in the budget.
24 But in either case, I'm glad to hear
231
1 that there's room for discussion in terms of
2 the specifics of the proposal as we just
3 discussed.
4 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Yes, I'm
5 saware that those conversations are happening
6 right now.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: So the
8 legislative proposal also contained an
9 exception that would allow access to sealed
10 records of convictions for entities required
11 under state and/or federal law to request
12 criminal history background information such
13 as public schools, childcare facilities,
14 adult care facilities and nursing homes.
15 But in the Executive Budget proposal,
16 that piece is not included. Do you have any
17 explanation for that?
18 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I
19 understand that we are working on that right
20 now with the Legislature in sorting that out.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Okay. There's
22 another -- there's another significant
23 difference between the two proposals. The
24 legislation -- the legislative proposal, that
232
1 is, provides for private right of action for
2 people who are aggrieved by violations of the
3 sealing statutes, and it makes it a
4 discriminatory act under the Executive Law
5 for employers to inquire or base employment
6 decisions upon sealed convictions.
7 Now, the proposal in the Executive
8 Budget doesn't get into that at all.
9 Comments?
10 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I don't
11 really have a comment on that directly.
12 As I said, we remain poised to
13 implement what is passed, you know, both in
14 the budget and through the Legislature. We
15 have the ability to seal those records, and
16 we take that responsibility very seriously.
17 I think it's a positive move.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: I know this is
19 not common for legislators to do, but I'm not
20 going to use up all my time. So thank you
21 very much.
22 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Thank you.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Well done,
24 Mr. Chair.
233
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay, back to
2 the Senate.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
4 Chair of Codes, Jamaal Bailey.
5 SENATOR BAILEY: Thank you, Madam
6 Chair.
7 And thank you, Chair Dinowitz, for
8 ceding me your additional five minutes in
9 time. I truly appreciate it.
10 (Laughter.)
11 SENATOR BAILEY: Commissioner, good to
12 see you. Thank you for the work that you've
13 done throughout your career.
14 Briefly on Clean Slate, which in the
15 Senate is carried by Senator Zellnor Myrie.
16 You mentioned the number of people that would
17 be affected -- did you say roughly 2 million
18 people would be affected?
19 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Correct.
20 SENATOR BAILEY: And the amount of
21 time that it would take to seal these
22 records, it would take approximately how
23 long?
24 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: About a
234
1 year and a half.
2 SENATOR BAILEY: About a year and a
3 half. And the additional resources required
4 to do so? Just want to make sure we're
5 continuing to take up the req.
6 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: We're
7 working with OCA and the Legislature to, you
8 know, come up with the cost.
9 SENATOR BAILEY: Okay. I would just
10 like to figure that out, because again, you
11 know, I go on record as a proponent of the
12 legislation. I think that being able to
13 provide individuals with economic justice and
14 the ability to sustain themselves
15 economically is the best prevention method in
16 terms of justice involvement.
17 And I think you sort of alluded to it
18 in your opening remarks, but I don't want to
19 put words into your mouth.
20 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Oh, I agree
21 that it's a positive thing to say, and I
22 think it's our responsibility to do it in the
23 most efficient way possible so that someone
24 is -- you know, we're affecting people's
235
1 livelihood. And if they can have a clean
2 slate, we should deliver that.
3 SENATOR BAILEY: Certainly.
4 I want to talk about gun violence,
5 because I think some of my colleagues will
6 touch on the -- the sponsors will touch on
7 the Clean Slate bill in a little bit.
8 Gun violence -- you mentioned in your
9 opening remarks that this was a problem
10 that's not just happening in New York State,
11 it's happening across the country. And you
12 mentioned that you have a background in
13 criminal justice. Is there any data that
14 shows us what this spike is being caused by
15 nationwide?
16 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Senator, as
17 you know, communities across the country,
18 including those in New York State,
19 experienced increases in gun violence over
20 the past two years -- 2020, 2021. The
21 researchers, academics, pundits and everyone
22 will debate the causes.
23 There is a complex confluence of
24 factors that occurred in 2020 and throughout
236
1 the pandemic that shouldn't be discounted.
2 It may not be the cause, but it cannot be
3 discounted. Right? Unemployment, we had
4 closure of schools and other essential
5 programs, we had isolation from family and
6 friends and support systems, we had
7 disruptions within the criminal justice
8 system itself. And obviously we had social
9 unrest and anti-police sentiment in
10 communities.
11 As I mentioned in my testimony, the
12 Governor's proposed budget for DCJS includes
13 an additional $100 million, and most of that
14 funding is dedicated to reduce gun violence
15 by scaling our existing programs that have
16 been -- you know, they're tried and true, and
17 establishing new ones to address the complex
18 causes of violent crime and meet the needs of
19 the victims.
20 In 2019, New York State reported
21 304 firearm-related homicides, the
22 second-lowest number during the most recent
23 10-year period. Only 2017 had fewer, at 296.
24 I don't know if you want to hear all these
237
1 numbers, but -- in addition, shooting
2 incidents involving injury and the number of
3 shooting victims reported by police
4 departments in communities with these
5 programs declined annually from 2016 to 2019,
6 when both reached 10-year lows.
7 New York uses programs like GIVE and
8 SNUG, applying evidence-based strategies and
9 proven practices. And the state has been
10 recognized nationally as a leader for its
11 comprehensive statewide investment to reduce
12 gun violence.
13 In GIVE, we work with the folks in the
14 law enforcement community, you know, we bring
15 them all to the table and we work on not just
16 solving crimes, solving them quickly, but
17 also, you know, identifying all the crimes
18 that involve guns.
19 And in SNUG we work with street
20 outreach teams and folks in the community at
21 the very grassroots level in trying to
22 prevent the use of guns.
23 SENATOR BAILEY: So in sum and
24 substance, based upon what you created as --
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1 would it be fair to say that there is no one
2 particular causation factor that we could
3 attribute to the rising gun violence? Would
4 that be a fair statement?
5 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: That's a
6 fair statement. None of the experts here in
7 the city or across the country have been able
8 to point to -- you know, to prove that it's
9 one thing.
10 SENATOR BAILEY: Certainly. So let me
11 first -- and I was hasty to begin my
12 question, but let me also echo your
13 sentiments in giving my condolences to the
14 families of the officers who were taken from
15 us far too soon with this scourge of gun
16 violence.
17 But I wanted to ask you about the SNUG
18 programs. I'm a long-time proponent of them.
19 The expansion, you mentioned expanding to
20 three new cities. When we're expanding these
21 programs, are we looking -- is this money
22 that's in the budget going to be able to
23 expand the catchment area of existing
24 programs? Because in one of the recent -- in
239
1 one of the unfortunate incidents in my
2 borough, in the City of New York, there is a
3 Credible Messenger group that stops just a
4 couple of blocks away from where that took
5 place.
6 Are we going to be able to get funding
7 to expand it? And quite frankly, are we
8 going to be able to get that money out the
9 door, as it were, yesterday in order to be
10 able to effectuate that sort of change?
11 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Yes. The
12 answer is yes. The short answer is yes. We
13 work with the data. You know, we follow the
14 data based on the communities where we
15 already are, and we use the data to determine
16 the new communities where we're going. But
17 the answer is yes.
18 And -- I'm sorry, I forgot the last
19 part of your question. But we are able to
20 get the money out of the door because these
21 are programs that already exist. And so, you
22 know, we know how to do it. I mean,
23 obviously we have, you know, procurement
24 processes and things to follow. But we
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1 consider this -- I mean, under the leadership
2 of Governor Hochul, this is an emergency.
3 SENATOR BAILEY: And I certainly
4 appreciate that. The exigent circumstances
5 that we're in, I would hope that we could
6 figure out a much more streamlined way to get
7 this money out the door, because as you well
8 know, with these Cure Violence programs, it
9 is not merely just about sending these
10 Credible Messengers into the street, it is
11 often removing these individuals from the
12 neighborhoods, taking them somewhere to do
13 something as simple as taking them bowling or
14 getting something to eat, away from the areas
15 in which these traumatic incidences are
16 taking place.
17 So our Credible Messengers need to be
18 able to get this funding, and they need it
19 sooner rather than later because the cost
20 fluctuates. I just want to make sure that
21 we're trying to get it out the door as soon
22 as possible because we are in the midst of an
23 incredibly important crisis.
24 I would ask another question in
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1 relation to the capital funding. There are
2 some buses that -- Erica Ford and LIFE Camp,
3 they have these buses that go around. Would
4 this funding be able to utilize some of these
5 mobile trauma centers in order to -- would
6 this be able to be purchased or procure some
7 of those centers as well?
8 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Yes.
9 Again, the short answer is yes. We have a
10 $50 million budget for that, for capital.
11 And so we're working with the folks we
12 already work with, with Erica Ford and other
13 folks on the ground, and so we are -- and
14 they have tons of ideas on how to put this
15 money to work, and we intend to do that.
16 SENATOR BAILEY: Certainly. And
17 again, Erica Ford is just one of the many
18 great folks doing this incredible work.
19 I would ask, I guess the last couple
20 of minutes of my questions would be related
21 to the bail reform conversation that began
22 with Judge Marks in terms of the data. He
23 mentioned that DCJS would be able to further
24 illuminate us on some of the data as related
242
1 to bail eligible or not eligible. What
2 information would you have to be able to
3 further illuminate that point?
4 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Okay.
5 Well, you know bail takes more than a few
6 minutes, Senator.
7 But I'll start with one of the main
8 arguments for reforming cash bail was to make
9 pretrial release decisions more equitable and
10 remove the perverse connection between
11 financial means and freedom. Whether or not
12 a person was detained or released from
13 pretrial was associated with, you know, an
14 increased likelihood of conviction and
15 sentences to incarceration. We went through
16 all this several years ago, right?
17 Given that important fact, an
18 evaluation of bail would have to include
19 pretrial release decisions and court
20 appearances, both of which are available, and
21 court case outcomes, which are not yet
22 available. And so our position is that we
23 need to have -- you know, wait till that
24 information is available to make what I think
243
1 someone referred to earlier, in very
2 scientific language, as an apples-to-apples
3 comparison. Right?
4 A review of pretrial data shows that
5 48 percent of New York City arraignments in
6 2020 for violent felony offenses was still
7 pending as of September 2021, and 42 percent
8 was still pending outside of New York City.
9 To evaluate the impact of bail reforms
10 on appearances rates and racial equity in
11 release decisions and final case outcomes,
12 many more of these cases would need to be
13 disposed. We continue to work with the
14 researchers to best understand the dynamics
15 of pretrial reform implementation and its
16 impact on the criminal justice system and
17 New Yorkers.
18 And you will recall, or you may recall
19 that in this year's budget, the Governor
20 added money -- 20 million? -- 10 million for
21 the pretrial services outside of New York
22 City to address those concerns.
23 SENATOR BAILEY: Certainly. And I
24 guess that leads me to my final question, at
244
1 least for now. Like that $10 million for
2 discovery reform, right -- I guess that's
3 primarily going to be utilized for it -- how
4 is it going to be utilized? Do you have a
5 breakdown for it, or is it going to be based
6 upon what the county's specific need would
7 be?
8 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Yeah, it
9 will be based on what the specific needs of
10 the counties are, but that has not been
11 worked out yet.
12 SENATOR BAILEY: Okay. Perfect
13 timing. Thank you, Commissioner, for your
14 indulgence.
15 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Thank you.
16 SENATOR BAILEY: Thank you, Madam
17 Chair.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
19 Assemblymember Weinstein.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
21 Assemblyman Ra, Ways and Means ranker, for
22 five minutes.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you, Chair.
24 Good afternoon, Commissioner. Good to
245
1 see you again in your new role.
2 Just continuing on the conversation
3 you were just having with Senator Bailey with
4 regard to bail reform and some of the data.
5 And I think that's I guess an important point
6 as we go forward and have more -- right, as
7 this is beginning to affect more and more, we
8 have more data. But certainly if you don't
9 have a full conclusion of a case, you know,
10 so that makes -- you can't fully evaluate
11 that individual matter.
12 I was just wondering if you could just
13 clarify -- you know, there was this whole
14 issue -- obviously you have to work in
15 conjunction with OCA regarding this data.
16 There was, you know, the data that had been
17 put up and then taken down and then re-put
18 up. Exactly what happened there? And, you
19 know, for the public, why we should be
20 confident that, going forward, the data will
21 be properly compiled.
22 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Sure. You
23 should be confident because when we see that
24 there's something wrong, you know, we deal
246
1 with it immediately.
2 There was nothing wrong with the data
3 per se. It's just that the data that was
4 posted included some post -- post-trial
5 information that should not have been
6 included. Because in order to measure the
7 effectiveness of the bail reform as it was
8 passed, you need the apples-to-apples
9 comparison, which is the pretrial to
10 pretrial.
11 Our researchers at DCJS noticed that
12 and decided to repost, you know, with the
13 right information.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay. And so
15 according to the data that you do have, in
16 terms of kind of an apple-to-apple comparison
17 do you have numbers on, you know, what you've
18 seen in terms of rearrests and then what, you
19 know, they were for, whether they were
20 violent felonies or weapons charges?
21 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Sure. But
22 I'll start by repeating, you know, what I
23 said earlier, that we don't feel that
24 there -- we don't have enough numbers to
247
1 have, you know, the -- to reach -- to have a
2 complete picture, I should say.
3 The public perception of bail reform
4 is that it has increased violent crime and
5 made us less safe. But in fact the
6 preliminary data is far from a complete
7 picture.
8 As required by law, DCJS collaborated
9 with OCA to publish the data on pretrial
10 release and detention, and that data is
11 available on our website as well as OCA's
12 website. However, the data does not include
13 roughly half of the arraignments outside of
14 New York City that are current town and
15 village courts, nor does it include
16 Superior Court arraignments.
17 So OCA will begin to collect that
18 information over the coming year. And again,
19 when the data comes to us, it comes to us
20 through OCA.
21 Furthermore, given the ongoing impact
22 of the pandemic, there has been a fundamental
23 disruption to the criminal justice system,
24 and I think the judge spoke about that
248
1 earlier. The time from arrest to arraignment
2 has increased, and so has the time from
3 arraignment to disposition. We also see that
4 more than a third of all cases from the most
5 recent data are still pending. All of that
6 makes comparing the current system to the
7 pre-COVID one an exercise in comparing apples
8 to oranges.
9 We are working with the best minds in
10 the state to continue to review the
11 information we and OCA have to -- you know,
12 what we have access to.
13 So I just want to run through the
14 numbers that we do have in terms of the
15 number of arrests. From June 2019 to June
16 2021, the number of arrests dropped
17 36 percent in New York City, and 28 percent
18 in the rest of the state. And I'm happy to
19 take any of you on a deep dive of these
20 numbers, you know, in the coming days if
21 you're interested.
22 Arraignments. From June 2019 to June
23 2021, the number of arraignments fell
24 38 percent in New York City and 29 percent in
249
1 the rest of the state. Notably, the types of
2 arraignments shifted. Proportionally, there
3 were fewer misdemeanors and more violent
4 felony charges.
5 In terms of releases, from January
6 2020 to June 2021, 87 percent of people were
7 released at arraignment in New York City, and
8 81 percent in the rest of the state.
9 In terms of the pretrial jail
10 population, from September 2019 to December
11 2021, the average number of people detained
12 in New York City's jails dropped 25 percent,
13 25 percent being like 1,726 -- in New York
14 City -- and 24 percent, which is about a
15 total of 3,000, in the rest of the state.
16 And then rearrests after release. For
17 a limited analysis of 2020 arraignments where
18 defendants were released, first, most
19 individuals released after arraignment,
20 72 percent in 2020, were not rearrested while
21 their case was pending. Secondly, of those
22 who were released and rearrested, most were
23 rearrested for nonviolent felonies and
24 misdemeanors. Third, rearrests for firearm
250
1 charges occurred the least often -- only
2 1 percent of all of those who were released.
3 Does that give you a picture? I mean,
4 I have --
5 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: All right, so you
6 said just in terms of misdemeanors, what was
7 that percentage of those rearrested?
8 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: So of those
9 who were released and rearrested, most were
10 rearrested for nonviolent felonies. That's
11 12 percent. And misdemeanors was 10 percent.
12 So to translate that, the 12 percent
13 is 12,542 of 108,552, to be precise. And the
14 misdemeanors, 10 percent, which is 10,561 of
15 108,552.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Great. Thank you
17 very much.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: The Senate?
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
20 Senator Diane Savino.
21 SENATOR SAVINO: Thank you, Senator
22 Krueger.
23 Good afternoon, Commissioner.
24 I'm not sure if people saw the news
251
1 that the police commissioner just announced
2 the second police officer passed away just a
3 few minutes ago. So we might want to take a
4 moment of silence for him. It's a bad week
5 for all of us.
6 But I want to thank you for providing
7 your testimony. And I want to just focus --
8 because I only have three minutes, I just
9 want to focus on a couple of things. I know
10 many people will continue on the discussion
11 of the statistics on bail reform. I just
12 want to direct you to the issue of the SNUG
13 program, which I'm glad we're continuing.
14 The SNUG program was born in the New York
15 State Senate, in fact in the Senate
16 Democratic Conference. It was an idea that
17 was the brainchild of the current mayor of
18 the City of New York, Eric Adams, when he was
19 a member of the Senate.
20 But as we move forward and put money
21 out there, not all of the SNUG programs work
22 as well, and so I would hope that we actually
23 invest in the ones that are working, the ones
24 that have an anti-violence collaborative
252
1 approach, that they bring in the local
2 precinct, local social services, healthcare
3 providers. I have one in Coney Island, it is
4 amazing, and you can see the effects of it.
5 It has driven down gun violence tremendously
6 and also worked on other issues.
7 They have a saying that in social
8 work -- it's very simple: Hurt people hurt
9 people. And so you need a collaborative
10 approach. So hopefully we'll put money where
11 it works.
12 On the issue of pretrial detention, I
13 just have a simple question. Why -- it's
14 $10 million, it's not a lot of money. But
15 why is it only going to areas outside of
16 New York City, which as we know, New York
17 City is more than 50 percent of the
18 population, and a significant number of the
19 cases are in the five boroughs.
20 So if there's a reason that that makes
21 sense, it's just not evident to me. I'm
22 hoping you can explain it to me. Why aren't
23 we helping with discovery and pretrial
24 services in the five boroughs of the City of
253
1 New York?
2 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: It's -- we
3 already fund in New York City, I think it's
4 about $30 million. And so, you know,
5 New York City is already covered in that
6 sense.
7 SENATOR SAVINO: Okay. See, that was
8 simple. Thank you.
9 (Laughter.)
10 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: And I just
11 want to say, you know, you mentioned the
12 second officer. Really, you know, it's --
13 SENATOR SAVINO: It's heartbreaking.
14 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: It's really
15 heartbreaking because, you know, these kids
16 are the same age as, you know, my children --
17 my daughter's 27, my son is 30, so -- and
18 they're the same age as the students I taught
19 at John Jay College, you know, at least a
20 dozen of whom are in the -- you know, have
21 gone through the academy and are in the
22 police force.
23 So I think it's appropriate that we
24 take time -- that we take time to mourn them,
254
1 you know, to honor them, and then to work
2 together, you know, to find solutions.
3 SENATOR SAVINO: Absolutely. Thank
4 you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
6 much.
7 Assemblywoman.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
9 Assemblyman Weprin, three minutes.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Thank you, Madam
11 Chair.
12 Thank you, Commissioner Rosado. I'm
13 very excited about your new appointment --
14 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Thank you.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: -- and working
16 with you. This is now my seventh year, going
17 into my seventh year as chair of the
18 Corrections Committee, and we've spent a lot
19 of time together at various facilities with
20 educational programs, seminars and what have
21 you.
22 So I've had a bill for educational
23 release in correctional facilities for a
24 number of years, and one of the oppositions
255
1 to it was not having TAP available to
2 incarcerated individuals. The Governor, of
3 course, has proposed in her budget that that
4 change. And that goes back to an old Pataki
5 law.
6 So I'm looking forward to working with
7 you on some of these educational programs. I
8 don't know how much you know about the
9 proposal on the educational release and
10 furlough for those eligible, but if you could
11 maybe talk a little bit about it. And I look
12 forward to working with you on that
13 expansion.
14 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Thank you,
15 Assemblyman. And yes, you and I have visited
16 many of those facilities together and seen
17 evidence of the value of the educational
18 programs. We've seen them graduate, and
19 we've actually seen them come home as well.
20 The work release program, which I had
21 been involved with when we were on the
22 reentry council in talking about it, you
23 know, and kind of including it, you know, on
24 a list of things every year, is really
256
1 something you should talk to Commissioner
2 Annucci about, something he's passionate
3 about, and he would have the details.
4 We do not have a direct role. DCJS
5 does not have a direct role. Except, you
6 know, I would love the opportunity,
7 regardless of what agency I'm in, I'd always
8 love an opportunity to go and visit and to
9 help in any way possible people coming home
10 from prison, you know, find employment and
11 get those opportunities.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Well, I look
13 forward to visiting other facilities with
14 you, hopefully when COVID dies down a little
15 bit. We thought it was over, but obviously
16 now, you know, it's come back a little bit.
17 But hopefully the worst is behind us.
18 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Agreed.
19 Thank you so much.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
21 Our next testifier is -- excuse me,
22 our next questioner is Senator Sepúlveda,
23 three minutes.
24 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Hi,
257
1 Senator.
2 SENATOR SEPÚLVEDA: Thank you. {In
3 Spanish.}.
4 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Gracias.
5 SENATOR SEPÚLVEDA: So I just read an
6 article -- I can't remember what paper it was
7 in, I'm having senior moments. But they
8 indicated that if you look at Texas and
9 New York, Texas is the easiest state to get a
10 gun. New York is one of the most difficult.
11 However, if you look gun violence involved in
12 Texas, something like 75 to 80 percent of the
13 guns were purchased in Texas. And something
14 like less than 10 percent of the gun violence
15 in New York were guns that were purchased or
16 manufactured in New York.
17 Now, why do I mention this? There is
18 a case before the Supreme Court, the New York
19 Rifle and Pistol Association vs. Bruen, which
20 I believe if the Supreme Court rules the way
21 I believe they're going to rule, it's going
22 to be a disaster for New York State. I
23 believe you're going to see more guns sold.
24 Unfortunately, where you have an
258
1 explosion of guns as you had during the
2 pandemic -- we had an article by The Atlantic
3 that said that they believe that one of the
4 causes and one of the main causes of gun
5 violence in the country, it's the explosion
6 of gun -- purchasings of guns in the country.
7 And I know there's a segment in our society
8 that just refuses to have that discussion,
9 that the main reason why we have so much gun
10 violence now is because there are more guns
11 in circulation, especially here in New York.
12 With what I believe is the impending
13 decision that's coming, what is the State of
14 New York going to do to fight back against
15 what I believe is going to a massive amount
16 of more sales of guns into our communities
17 and our communities of color where we don't
18 produce guns, we don't make them, we don't
19 sell them, we buy them many times illegally.
20 But what preparation do you have to combat
21 this potential crisis?
22 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Well,
23 Senator, I can tell you that we use our crime
24 analysis centers that are funded through DCJS
259
1 to keep track of guns and to stop them from
2 coming into the state.
3 I understand the Governor is having a
4 major gun discussion tomorrow, right here in
5 the area, and bringing everyone to the point
6 that that effort is being led by State
7 Police. But we are all in this space -- you
8 know, those of us in the criminal justice
9 space are all greatly concerned and newly
10 motivated to get these guns off the street.
11 SENATOR SEPÚLVEDA: Well, I'd like to
12 see hopefully what kind of a plan of action
13 your agency has, the New York State Police
14 has, because if we're not ready on Day 1, I
15 believe we're going to see even more gun
16 violence, we're going to have more tragedies
17 like, you know, the deaths we had of our
18 police officers.
19 I'm not going to talk about bail
20 reform because many of my colleagues have
21 asked you the questions. I just hope that
22 the Governor doesn't fall prey to the massive
23 amount of fearmongering and misinformation
24 that's out there in the media and other
260
1 sources, because it's just not accurate.
2 Thank you.
3 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Thank you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
5 I've been asked to pinch-hit for
6 Chair Weinstein while someone fixes her Zoom,
7 so Assemblymember Mike Reilly, you're up.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: Thank you,
9 Madam Chair.
10 Thank you, Commissioner, for joining
11 us today.
12 You know, I'm a little shaken up. I
13 mean, losing the -- Officer Mora now, as a
14 retired member of the NYPD, you know, you
15 never lose that brotherhood and sisterhood.
16 So thank you, Senator Savino, for asking
17 everybody to take a moment of silence. We
18 all will.
19 So I have a couple of questions, just
20 on Raise the Age. The firearms portion of
21 Raise the Age at 16 and 17 years old, where
22 just the mere possession goes to Family
23 Court, it's not eligible to go to Youth Part
24 Criminal Court -- do you have the numbers on
261
1 how many arrests there were for 16 and 17
2 year olds, or under 18 with loaded firearms?
3 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Senator
4 {sic}, I'm going to have to get back to you
5 on -- is he a Senator or Assembly?
6 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: That's all right,
7 I'm not -- you can -- just don't call me
8 late.
9 (Laughter.)
10 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I'm going
11 to have to get back to you on that. I do not
12 have that data -- I'm sure the agency has it,
13 but I don't have it in front of me broken
14 out. And I can turn that around for you
15 pretty quickly.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: So just -- I have
17 some data from New York City, and I'm
18 thinking that, you know, there's a carveout
19 there that we can help in Raise the Age where
20 we can have loaded firearms as one of the
21 extraordinary circumstances that could remain
22 in Youth Part.
23 Over the last two years, 2020 and
24 2021, 947 people under 18 were arrested for a
262
1 firearm. In 2020 there were 411, and in 2021
2 there were 536. Now, we see the uptick --
3 yes, I know there's a whole bunch of issues
4 that could be responsible for it. But I
5 think one of the key issues that we have to
6 look at is the street violence with gangs.
7 They know that those under 18 are not going
8 to be held criminally responsible,
9 potentially, for holding a firearm for those
10 older gang members.
11 And I think this is a loophole in
12 there that's actually endangering us, you
13 know, endangering public safety. And of
14 course we want to make sure that we have the
15 resources in there -- not necessarily to --
16 you know, it is to hold them accountable, but
17 we also want to stop them from repeating it.
18 And unfortunately we saw in the Bronx that
19 the officer who was shot was shot by a
20 defendant who was convicted in
21 Family Court -- or I should say, right, it
22 was not convicted, because it's not convicted
23 in Family Court, but they took a plea deal
24 for the firearm but now committed another
263
1 firearm case and now the officer was shot.
2 So I think these are the things that
3 we could use to stop recidivism. And I'm
4 hoping that we can get changes. What's your
5 thoughts on that?
6 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Well,
7 Senator {sic}, we're looking at these issues
8 now. And as I mentioned, the Governor is
9 holding a big conversation about guns
10 tomorrow. I'm aware that the Mayor proposed
11 some things yesterday. I've been preparing
12 for this, and I haven't seen his plan.
13 I would just say, on Raise the Age,
14 that -- that Raise the Age, you know,
15 dramatically changed how New York State's
16 justice system processes cases involving kids
17 who are 16 and 17. The goal of Raise the
18 Age, to keep those kids out of adult
19 prisons -- and we're doing that. Raise the
20 Age is doing what it set out to do.
21 But as with, you know, Raise the Age
22 and bail and all of these other initiatives,
23 they came about and they were passed by the
24 Legislature to solve problems of the past. I
264
1 don't think anybody believes that they're
2 perfect solutions, but we remain open, you
3 know, to all the conversations. We're in
4 touch with, as I said earlier, through the
5 CACs we're in touch with folks on the ground
6 trying to solve crimes. We're in touch,
7 through SNUG, with folks at the community --
8 and you're right, you know, we're in touch
9 with the folks who are working with the gangs
10 to prevent these things from happening.
11 So I think we all have to be --
12 collectively we all have to be open to, you
13 know, new conversations.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: Thank you.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
16 Next is Senator Gounardes.
17 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Thank you,
18 Senator Krueger.
19 Hello, Commissioner. Really
20 appreciate your dialogue on a lot of these
21 issues today.
22 I want to focus a little bit on hate
23 crimes. There was a recent report that said,
24 based on NYPD data, that there was a
265
1 361 percent increase in hate crimes
2 specifically against Asian-Americans in
3 New York City over the last year. And so I'd
4 love to hear you talk a little bit more about
5 what more we can be doing in relation to
6 helping to stop these hate crimes from being
7 committed.
8 I know the Governor proposed the
9 $25 million I think in capital costs for
10 enhanced security for Securing Communities
11 Against Hate Crimes, but that's for capital.
12 What more should we be doing to
13 address this outrageous spike in hate crimes
14 targeting some of our neighbors?
15 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Thank you,
16 Senator. As you know, you know, we believe
17 that hate doesn't have a place in New York
18 State.
19 And we -- at DCJS we collect and
20 report the data on hate crimes incidents, and
21 we give that data back, you know, to all of
22 you, to the communities and to the law
23 enforcement agencies. Police agencies are
24 required to report hate crime incidents to
266
1 DCJS. The investigating police officers are
2 responsible for determining if an offense is
3 a hate crime and identifying the specific
4 bias or motivation.
5 And then using that information, DCJS
6 publishes an annual report providing an
7 overview of hate crime incidents and arrests
8 throughout New York. To ensure the
9 completeness of the information, DCJS staff
10 follow up with all reporting agencies to
11 ensure that the data is submitted each month.
12 And to ensure the accuracy of the
13 information, staff review the incident report
14 as it is received and then contact the
15 submitting agency to correct any details.
16 From the most recent data, through the
17 first months of 2021, hate crimes are up
18 52 percent compared to the same period in
19 2020. The most notable increase was an
20 anti-Asian bias --
21 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Commissioner, I
22 just want to cut you off a second. We know
23 the data. We know what the numbers are
24 showing. I don't need to hear the process.
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1 I'd love to hear your thoughts.
2 What else should we be doing from a
3 funding perspective, from a law perspective?
4 Clearly we know there's a problem. And so
5 based on your experience and your expertise,
6 where do you think we can be improving and
7 moving the ball down the field to keeping
8 these neighbors safe, who literally fear
9 walking down the street based on their -- you
10 know, their ethnic, their cultural, their
11 physical attributes?
12 Do you have any thoughts, any
13 suggestions, anything you can be doing more
14 of, looking at more? I'd really appreciate
15 your insights there.
16 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Yeah, sure.
17 I think that, you know, we have the
18 $25 million in the Securing Communities
19 Against Hate Crimes grant program, and I
20 think we should do what we do with our other
21 programs, which is listen to folks on the
22 ground and try to help them with the
23 resources that they need.
24 And in the case of the Securing
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1 Communities Against Hate Crimes grants, we
2 had over 352 applications. And we got more
3 money in the new budget for more of those.
4 Those are -- and those are the organizations
5 that are not only just being targeted, but
6 also work with folks, you know, in those
7 communities. And so we should listen to them
8 and help them access the resources they need.
9 SENATOR GOUNARDES: I'd love to carry
10 on this conversation with you offline, as my
11 time has expired. Thank you.
12 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Any time.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 I believe the next Assemblymember up
15 is Assemblymember Harvey Epstein.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you,
17 Chair Krueger.
18 And thank you, Commissioner, for being
19 with us today. I really appreciate your
20 time.
21 I'm wondering -- this is a different
22 conversation point about trainings for police
23 officers in using firearms and tasers. You
24 know, we had an incident recently where, you
269
1 know, someone was tased and unfortunately
2 they were set on fire. I'm wondering if you
3 think there should be a centralized process
4 for training people how to use firearms and
5 tasers before they have access to them.
6 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Well, we do
7 have a centralized process, Senator {sic}.
8 We have, as you may know, the Office of
9 Public Safety at DCJS. We have an incredible
10 staff of folks who work every day to help law
11 enforcement, you know, both implementing kind
12 of the Professional Policing Act, but also
13 trainings -- a long list for trainings for
14 existing what we call in-service officers,
15 people who, you know, came through the
16 academy a long time ago. And so that
17 includes firearms.
18 And I want to --
19 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Commissioner,
20 you know, I don't have a tremendous amount of
21 time, so I don't mean to cut you off, but --
22 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Oh, no,
23 please.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: But my
270
1 understanding is for every officer statewide
2 there isn't one centralized training program
3 so that every officer across the state -- but
4 maybe we can continue this conversation
5 offline and talk more about it.
6 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I'm happy
7 to talk to you offline. We have basic
8 courses at BCOP --
9 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And it's
10 mandatory for everyone?
11 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Yes.
12 Except for State Police.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And so I just
14 wanted to follow up with you around some of
15 the information you said around rearrests.
16 I'm wondering what the numbers are for
17 people who are rearrested who when they
18 initially were arrested, bail was set and
19 then they were released. Were they -- what
20 data do you have about those people being
21 rearrested who had bail the first time and
22 then maybe were rearrested for violent or
23 nonviolent offenses or not rearrested?
24 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Let me see
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1 what I have, if I have the numbers.
2 Rearrests -- did you say after paid bail?
3 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Yeah, after bail
4 was set and they paid bail.
5 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Got it. So
6 here are the numbers I have for rearrests
7 after paid bail. This is, again, from a
8 limited analysis of 2020 arraignments where
9 defendants posted bail.
10 Thirty percent -- which would be 906
11 out of 2986 -- of individuals who posted bail
12 in New York City were rearrested. And
13 32 percent in the rest of the state, the
14 32 percent being 619 out of 1963.
15 The individuals who posted bail were
16 rearrested at a greater rate than those
17 released on their own recognizance.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And do you know,
19 were they rearrested for violent or
20 nonviolent offenses?
21 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: That I
22 would have to get back to you. We'd have to
23 do a deeper dive into those cases.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: I'd greatly
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1 appreciate that. Because, you know, the
2 conversation around bail, we need facts.
3 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Absolutely,
4 yes.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: You know,
6 obviously -- I represent one of the seven
7 neighborhoods across the state where we see
8 75 percent of incarcerated folks coming
9 from --
10 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Let me tell
11 you that I am extremely motivated that we
12 have conversations around accurate data.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you
14 Commissioner. Thank you, Chair Krueger.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
16 much.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senator, do you
18 have any other Senators?
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Hello. I've been
20 just going down the Assembly list,
21 Assemblywoman.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay. So I'm
23 back. They certainly fixed my computer; now
24 I can see everybody.
273
1 So we're going to go to -- I see
2 Assemblywoman Walker is here. She was next
3 on the list, so we'll go to her.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Great.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Awesome. Thank
6 you much.
7 And thank you so much for your
8 testimony as well.
9 So one of the things that we have
10 noticed here is that there's some
11 contradictory data between the Mayor's Office
12 of Criminal Justice and then the report that
13 your office has placed out. And so one of
14 the things that we saw was that the data from
15 the Mayor's office includes information
16 post -- pre, sorry, pre-bail reform, and then
17 they looked at it juxtaposed -- with respect
18 to the rearrests, they looked at it
19 juxtaposed to post-bail reform.
20 Does your data show, you know, any
21 analysis of that pre-bail reform information?
22 Because, you know, for whatever reason,
23 people think bail is a phenomenon that just
24 began in 2019, as opposed to recognizing that
274
1 people have been paying bail and being
2 released since, you know, the beginning of
3 time. For the State of New York, at least.
4 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Yes,
5 Senator {sic}, I do not have the city's data.
6 I know that they collect that and that they
7 report it in that way, but we don't have
8 access to that data.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: So one of the
10 things that I wanted to just also ask is
11 whether or not the Division of Criminal
12 Justice Services, with respect to desk
13 appearance tickets -- there's also been this
14 conversation about these sort of repeat
15 arrests with respect to desk appearance
16 tickets.
17 Now, if a person is arrested for,
18 let's say, a petty -- stole a bottle of
19 aspirin and they go to the precinct for a
20 desk appearance ticket, it's DCJS that has to
21 approve that desk appearance ticket. Part of
22 the question is whether or not there's
23 another rearrest before that person actually
24 appears in court.
275
1 Is it possible, through your agency,
2 that you can have a shortened time period for
3 when that person actually appears in court so
4 that there isn't as much of a time period for
5 another rearrest during that wait?
6 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I
7 understand the question that you're asking,
8 and I'd like to look into it for my own
9 curiosity. But that information is not
10 reported to DCJS.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: No, the -- so
12 it's DCJS who actually approves the desk
13 appearance ticket -- no?
14 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: No, it's
15 not.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Okay. So do
17 you know which agency that provides that
18 approval?
19 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: No. There
20 may be an entity in the city. I mean, I'd
21 have to look into that. I'm sure someone in
22 this agency will be able to answer that
23 question.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Okay. All
276
1 right. So that --
2 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: It's not --
3 it's not DCJS.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Okay. And then
5 the information that was provided with
6 respect to the rearrest -- no, so one of the
7 things, too, does your organization also deal
8 with like maybe the algorithm or the system
9 in terms of how a person gets determined to
10 get release on their own recognizance because
11 there was some --
12 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: (Shaking
13 head.)
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: No, you don't
15 deal with --
16 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: (Shaking
17 head.)
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: So none of
19 those pretrial services gets included in, you
20 know, sort of looking at -- because it's the
21 pretrial services that determines whether or
22 not someone gets -- when they are released on
23 their own recognizance, how that scorecard
24 gets, you know, utilized, the community
277
1 check-ins and all of the other things with
2 respect to bail reform.
3 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: We collect
4 the data, but we don't provide the services.
5 We don't -- you know, that would be somewhere
6 between OCA and -- you know, and the city.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Okay. Thank
8 you.
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
10 We go to Assemblywoman Wallace now.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALLACE: Good
12 afternoon, Commissioner. Thank you so much.
13 A few times today you were asked about
14 if we implemented this initiative or that
15 initiative, how quickly would DCJS be able to
16 get that up and running. And I believe you
17 mentioned a few times that once it was passed
18 by this Legislature, DCJS has the ability to
19 get the programs up and running pretty
20 quickly.
21 I want to talk about a program that we
22 passed in last year's budget. In last year's
23 budget you may recall we allocated
24 $10 million for the purchase of police body
278
1 cameras by local municipalities to help
2 offset the costs associated with acquiring
3 them, because we recognized that there was a
4 need to increase transparency in policing,
5 and we thought that that would be a good
6 practice.
7 But to date, to my knowledge, none of
8 that money has been allocated, and I don't
9 even think that there's a plan for allocating
10 or granting that money. There has been -- I
11 know the police agencies that I work with
12 have been looking -- asking questions about
13 how can we apply for it, and I haven't really
14 received any answers yet.
15 So I'm wondering -- I just wanted to
16 flag that for you, and I wanted to see if you
17 had any sense of how quickly it is that you
18 can get that up and running. And if you
19 don't have an answer to that, I guess I'd ask
20 that you look into that and reach out and let
21 us know.
22 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Yes, I am
23 aware, because you sent me a letter.
24 And as I mentioned earlier, I've been
279
1 here for eight weeks. And within the eight
2 weeks, I got your letter, we have a response,
3 I believe there is an RFI, we do have a plan.
4 And I don't know what the delay was.
5 As I said, I got here on November 30th and I
6 am extremely motivated to move solutions out
7 the door. So I will -- I believe we have a
8 response to you or we sent a response to you,
9 Assemblymember. I will look -- you know, I
10 will look into it and definitely get back to
11 you directly.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALLACE: Okay. And
13 when do you anticipate once the RFI goes out,
14 how quickly do you think you might be able to
15 get those funds out the door?
16 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: For me,
17 it's as soon as possible.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALLACE: Okay. Thank
19 you.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
21 Assemblyman Lawler.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: Thank you,
23 Madam Chair.
24 And thank you, Commissioner, for
280
1 joining us.
2 I know you're two months in, and so I
3 understand, you know, you're not going to
4 have everything at your disposal. But I want
5 to follow up on something that my colleague
6 Mr. Reilly focused on a short while ago with
7 respect to Raise the Age.
8 According to DCJS, in 2020 only
9 3 percent of 16- and 17-year-old AOs were
10 arrested for a felony -- that were arrested
11 for a felony received a felony conviction.
12 So that was only 119 out of 3,727 AOs
13 received a felony conviction. And of that,
14 only 44 were sentenced to one year or more of
15 imprisonment. And that is -- notwithstanding
16 the fact that 48 of those folks were arrested
17 for homicide, 52 for attempted homicide, 55
18 for sex offenses, 460 for firearms and
19 dangerous weapon offenses.
20 So when we talk about the rise in gun
21 violence in New York City and we're looking
22 at some of these stats from DCJS, isn't it
23 concerning to you in some way that we aren't
24 going after violent offenders, even if
281
1 they're 16 and 17 years old? As my colleague
2 pointed out, many of those folks are being
3 used by gangs in furtherance of crime,
4 because they're not going to be treated the
5 same as adults.
6 And so some of these violent offenses
7 and gun violence really needs to be
8 reexamined. And in light of the Governor's
9 comments the other day, the Mayor's comments
10 the other day, many of my colleagues'
11 comments today, don't we need to kind of
12 reevaluate that a little based on those
13 statistics?
14 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I think
15 it's the job of -- I mean, I think it's
16 appropriate to reevaluate, you know, all
17 initiatives. I reiterate that the goal of
18 Raise the Age and our responsibility was to
19 implement what was passed and agreed upon.
20 The goal of Raise the Age was to keep 16 and
21 17 year olds out of adult prisons. We've
22 done that.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: Right. But --
24 but -- but -- and I understand that was the
282
1 goal. And in most cases I think that's a
2 fair goal. But when you're talking about
3 violent offenders -- I mean, 48 people were
4 arrested for homicide, 52 for attempted
5 homicide, 55 for sex offenses, 460 for
6 firearm or dangerous weapons -- and only 44
7 were sentenced to a year or more in prison,
8 and only 119 were actually convicted of a
9 felony offense.
10 So I get we want to keep them out of
11 an adult prison, but not at the expense of
12 public safety. And certainly if they're
13 committing violent felonies, that needs to be
14 the priority, not keeping them out of an
15 adult prison just for the sake of reaching
16 some laudatory goal.
17 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I think as
18 I mentioned earlier, you know, the Governor
19 -- I mean, this is an appropriate moment to
20 talk about gun violence. Which, you know, I
21 would only, you know, continue to point out
22 that it's not a New York problem, it's a
23 national problem. And we need help, you
24 know, from the federal government in that
283
1 regard too, across the board, with all crimes
2 that involve guns.
3 Our job at DCJS is to track them and
4 to give the data back to law enforcement and
5 to work with all of you and people in elected
6 office to, you know, find the right
7 solutions.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: And I know my
9 time has expired, but I --
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
11 We go to Assemblyman Tannousis. Thank
12 you.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS: Thank you so
14 much.
15 Thank you, Commissioner, for
16 testifying before us today.
17 I know that you went through some
18 statistics in regards to defendants that were
19 released because of bail reform and how many
20 of those individuals reoffended. I just -- I
21 know that you divided it with misdemeanors,
22 violent felonies and nonviolent felonies.
23 What I'm interested in is a total
24 picture of how many of those individuals were
284
1 arrested again, whether it be a misdemeanor,
2 felony or violent felony. Do you have those
3 total statistics for us?
4 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I don't
5 have them in front of me, but we have them
6 available. They're posted on our website.
7 And I'm happy to do a deep dive with our
8 research people -- anytime, you know, you're
9 available, we can give you precise data based
10 on, you know, what we've posted so far.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS: Okay. But I
12 just want to be clear about something.
13 Because before you testified, Judge Marks
14 testified, and he threw out a number, and I
15 want to ask you if this is accurate. He said
16 22 percent of individuals that were released
17 because of bail reform recommitted another
18 crime. Is that accurate? Is that specific
19 to felonies or nonviolent felonies or
20 misdemeanors, or was he mistaken as to that
21 number?
22 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I can't say
23 if he was mistaken because I'm not looking at
24 the data that he's looking at. I can look
285
1 at -- I am certain that we're both looking at
2 the same data that we posted on both of our
3 websites and I'm happy to go through that.
4 And I don't remember -- I was watching
5 his testimony; I don't remember the
6 20 percent number. But I'm happy to take a
7 look at that for you.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS: Okay. Thank
9 you very much.
10 And I also just want to ask you one
11 more question in regards to Mayor Adams, his
12 press conference yesterday where he stated
13 that there are changes that need to be made
14 in regards to the Legislature's bail reform
15 laws that were passed a few years back.
16 What is your position as to those
17 laws, being that you do have the statistics?
18 Do you think that there needs to be a change
19 in regards to these laws for the safety of
20 New Yorkers, or is there another solution
21 that you see going forward?
22 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I think
23 that, you know, the role of DCJS is to
24 implement the laws as they are passed, and
286
1 we've done that. And I think that the
2 conversations are taking place -- I did not
3 get to watch, you know, the Mayor's. I think
4 that based on this weekend's events, you
5 know, we're all feeling incredibly sad and
6 motivated, you know, to address all of these
7 policies. And I think that those
8 conversations should happen.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS: Okay. Thank
10 you very much.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
12 Brown.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN: Thank you,
14 Madam Chair.
15 Commissioner, thank you for being
16 here. I wanted to ask you -- I'm the ranker
17 of the Assembly Committee on Alcoholism and
18 Substance Abuse. And with bail reform, a
19 very powerful tool was taken away to treat
20 individuals with substance abuse problems by
21 having an opportunity to go in front of a
22 judge and take involuntary treatment in lieu
23 of incarceration.
24 So my question to you is, how can we
287
1 get back that tool, get people into treatment
2 more easily, you know, get them in front of a
3 drug court judge to allow them the
4 opportunity to choose treatment in lieu of
5 incarceration? Thank you.
6 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Thank you.
7 Thank you for the question. I think that
8 question is a good one, and it's appropriate
9 for both OASAS and OCA, who really -- that's
10 their bailiwick, and we're not -- we don't
11 have a direct role in that.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN: That was my
13 question, Madam Chair.
14 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Thank you.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN: Thank you.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
17 So our last -- oh, we have Assemblyman
18 Burdick and then Assemblyman Palmesano.
19 But Assemblyman Burdick, the floor is
20 yours.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you.
22 And congratulations, Commissioner, on
23 your recent appointment.
24 I represent Bedford, which has two
288
1 correctional facilities, as you may know.
2 And there are several community-based
3 organizations which have done really and are
4 continuing to do a stellar job in providing
5 correction programs for those who are
6 incarcerated there. And I notice that in --
7 your website sets out the core services of
8 your agency, which includes funding and
9 oversight of probation and community
10 correction programs.
11 So I have two questions related to
12 that. One is, where -- what funding is in
13 the Executive Budget for such programs, and
14 how might it be accessed? Is it done through
15 grants? And if you don't have the answer to
16 that, I'm fine with hearing back from you on
17 that.
18 And the other is, can you explain how
19 your agency coordinates and collaborates with
20 DOCCS in terms of the oversight of probation
21 and community correction programs?
22 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Sure. On
23 the first question, we work through existing
24 communities -- you know, through the existing
289
1 community organizations --
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sorry. Could
3 everyone else please mute your lines so we
4 can hear the commissioner? Thank you.
5 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Sorry about
6 that.
7 And I've been to both of the
8 facilities in your district. I'm also a
9 Westchester resident. So we work through the
10 organizations that exist, and we work through
11 our office -- OPCA, I'm learning all the
12 acronyms, works directly with the
13 organizations, with probation officers in the
14 communities, and we, you know, provide
15 funding for tons of organizations doing this
16 work at the very local level.
17 And your second question, you know, we
18 work closely with DOCCS. As you know, at
19 DCJS we oversee probation directly, and DOCCS
20 oversees what we used to know as parole, but
21 is community supervision now. And those are
22 people who are mostly released from the state
23 prisons and have still time to serve, you
24 know, under supervision.
290
1 But we collaborate -- as I mentioned
2 in my testimony, in the new budget we have
3 some money, we're going to use our trainers
4 to help do some training of parole officers
5 in the Jobs to Jail program, you know, in
6 workforce development and to help the
7 folks -- you know, to help them with their
8 clients who are on parole. And, you know, we
9 have a lot of mutual, you know, support
10 between DOCCS and DCJS. They don't report to
11 us and we don't report to them, but we
12 collaborate on a lot --
13 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: I'm sorry to
14 interrupt, but could you get back to me with
15 how we can get information to some of these
16 local groups on accessing some of the funding
17 that you mentioned, you know, for the
18 programs?
19 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Absolutely.
20 Absolutely.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: That would be
22 wonderful.
23 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I'm
24 interested to know if you have organizations
291
1 that haven't received our funding or who, you
2 know, may qualify. You know, some
3 organizations are tiny and we work with them,
4 you know, to partner with others so that we
5 can move the money to them more efficiently
6 and help them --
7 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: That would be
8 great if I could get some information on
9 that.
10 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Absolutely.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you so
12 much, Commissioner. Appreciate it.
13 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
15 And our last questioner is Assemblyman
16 Palmesano.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Thank you,
18 Commissioner.
19 I know there's been a lot of talk
20 about the rising gun violence that's going on
21 in our cities across the state. You know, we
22 talk about New York City a lot, obviously.
23 Isn't it time -- we all know that Mayor de
24 Blasio got rid of the Anti-Crime Unit, whose
292
1 job and focus was to track down and find
2 illegal guns that are used in the commission
3 of a crime. Wouldn't you agree it's time for
4 us to reinstate the Anti-Crime Unit in
5 New York City to maybe help on this
6 situation? And if there's a -- we could make
7 a direct correlation in the closing down of
8 that Anti-Crime Unit with the increase in gun
9 violence that you're seeing in New York
10 City -- and isn't there a direct correlation
11 there?
12 And shouldn't they re-set that up
13 again so we can have the Anti-Crime Unit on
14 the streets trying to find the gun
15 trafficking and the illegal guns? Which they
16 were tasked to do before the mayor closed it
17 down.
18 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Thank you,
19 Assemblyman.
20 I -- you know, as I said earlier, I
21 believe, you know, that we're all in this
22 moment in time based on the incidents of the
23 last few weeks. We have a new mayor. I
24 understand -- I think he spoke about that
293
1 yesterday too, and I haven't had time to
2 really focus on it. But I believe that we're
3 all looking for solutions and that it's time
4 to -- you know, to reevaluate all the things
5 that happened. Sometimes things that worked
6 in the past can work again.
7 And we stand ready, again, when all
8 those conversations are done and those of you
9 who are elected into these positions, as well
10 as the Governor and the Mayor, and everyone
11 agrees on what to do, we stand ready to
12 implement at every level any innovative ideas
13 that will work to (a) reduce gun violence and
14 keep our communities safe.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: One of my
16 colleagues, Mr. Lawler, was talking about
17 the -- and Mr. Reilly were talking about the
18 Raise the Age, and Mr. Lawler brought up some
19 of the statistics. Along with those
20 statistics, do we have -- do you have --
21 where are the rearrest statistics for those
22 individuals who qualify under Raise the Age?
23 Where are those numbers as far as rearrests
24 and reoffense, so we can see them for
294
1 transparency purposes?
2 And wouldn't you agree that there are
3 a multitude of crimes that are being
4 committed that we don't even know about? And
5 doesn't this really kind of -- not
6 having these numbers or not being transparent
7 with the numbers really kind of question the
8 accuracy of the statistics that are really
9 being provided by DCJS and OCA?
10 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: As I --
11 I'll make you the same offer as everyone on
12 this call. I'm happy to take you through a
13 deep dive. I'm sure the numbers exist. I
14 don't have them on my screen. We can help
15 you find them. You know, we can help to find
16 them and, again, help you make the --
17 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Appreciate
18 that.
19 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: -- with the
20 most accurate information and make the
21 comparisons.
22 I understand --
23 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Wouldn't you
24 agree that it's important for the public to
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1 know those numbers as well? I mean, not just
2 the --
3 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Yes, we
4 post -- all of the numbers that I would take
5 you through, you know, with the research
6 folks are already posted. You know, we post
7 all of our numbers online.
8 But those -- you know, that doesn't
9 mean they're easy to analyze. One of my
10 visions for the agency is that we also spend
11 some time, you know, on the narratives, you
12 know, on helping folks understand what those
13 numbers mean. You know, bring that back to
14 the communities as well.
15 But I thank you for the question.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Thank you,
17 Commissioner.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Now we go to
19 Assemblywoman Kelles, who I believe is our
20 last questioner for this witness.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Hi, and
22 congratulations, I want to add my
23 congratulations as well.
24 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Thank you.
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1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Absolutely.
2 I see that you're starting a program
3 to reduce rural juvenile delinquency. That's
4 one of the programs that there's I think an
5 RFP out. I'm curious, the criteria -- when
6 you put your programs together, are you
7 looking at things like programs that are
8 providing community services, housing
9 stability, mental health supports, substance
10 use issues, some of these issues that we have
11 seen that are highly critical correlated with
12 criminality, to help reduce some of those?
13 Or is this specifically addressing,
14 you know, helping getting people who are
15 committing crimes off the street? I'm trying
16 to get a sense of what you're looking for in
17 the program.
18 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Yes -- no,
19 I don't know about the actual one you
20 mentioned, but I can tell you that, for
21 example, before I got here -- as I said, I've
22 been here eight weeks and kind of focused on
23 confirmation and this, which -- I haven't
24 been confirmed yet, though. But I've been
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1 focused on preparing for the -- you know, on
2 the budget.
3 But I can tell you, for example, I
4 want to say two years ago in the SNUG
5 program, you know, we had a very important
6 collaboration between the folks doing SNUG
7 and the Office of Victim Services, OVS, where
8 OVS provided funding from some of the federal
9 funding to provide social workers in those
10 SNUG sites.
11 Because, you know, we know from the
12 people on the ground that some of these
13 issues can be solved, you know, with case
14 management, with alternatives to
15 incarceration, with redirecting of resources
16 where someone may -- you know, I don't know,
17 may need a notebook or some tool that they
18 need, you know, for -- especially in the work
19 we do with youth.
20 So, you know, in all of our work, both
21 with law enforcement and with community
22 folks, we try to have a holistic approach,
23 which is --
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Great.
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1 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: -- why the
2 money that we got in the budget this year
3 allows us a little more flexibility to
4 address those things that are not, you know,
5 in the budget line. You know, whether you
6 have to try to help someone get a pair of
7 shoes or a shirt for an interview. I mean,
8 we have to --
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: I'm going to
10 throw in -- thank you so -- I'm going to
11 definitely be one of those people and get in
12 line to meet with you, because I would love
13 to hear more in depth about these.
14 I'm going to just throw a
15 few things --
16 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO:
17 (Inaudible.)
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Thank you.
19 Thank you. So I'm going to throw a few
20 things out there about the training with law
21 enforcement on implicit bias. If you could
22 describe some of that, community policing
23 efforts.
24 And the third one, I'm particularly
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1 interested in your focus on or support of or
2 help in expanding Law Enforcement Assisted
3 Diversion programs, LEAD programs.
4 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: So I can
5 tell you I'm -- first of all, thank you for
6 providing an opportunity to talk about the
7 professional policing. You know, we had an
8 executive order, 203, which allowed us to
9 work with, you know, the local law
10 enforcement.
11 I think as I mentioned earlier, one of
12 my goals is to tell the positive stories. I
13 mean, we've focused on all the things we've
14 talked about today, but this agency has a lot
15 of, you know, great things to demonstrate
16 how we've worked with law enforcement and how
17 we have provided tools.
18 You mentioned implicit bias. We
19 have -- you know, DCJS was consulted on the
20 guidance that the administration provided to
21 the police agencies as a result of EO203,
22 which is where, you know, the police
23 departments submitted plans last year. And,
24 you know, I was on the outside of the agency
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1 and I said, I wonder whatever happened to
2 those plans. And, you know, we were busy
3 dealing with COVID, and so everybody just
4 assumes nothing happened.
5 And I came to this agency and I was --
6 it was heartwarming to know that a lot of
7 things were being done, in fact, as a result
8 of that. And we've talked to folks outside
9 of the agency who are also looking at the
10 plans and really saying to police
11 departments, We want to help you accomplish
12 these plans. As you remember, that process
13 involved bringing stakeholders and
14 communities to the table, and we want to help
15 them go back to those communities and say,
16 Here are the solutions, how can we help?
17 Some of that is resources, and some of
18 them are learning modules. We've already
19 been involved, our Office of Public Safety
20 has already been involved over the last year
21 in training law enforcement, specifically
22 officers and folks both in the academy and
23 what we call in-service, training on implicit
24 bias, on deescalation, on, you know, kind of
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1 all of these -- you know, the buzzwords of
2 the things that we actually provide training
3 on how to do these things in the spirit of --
4 in the spirit of professional policing.
5 And we've had a lot of success --
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Commissioner,
7 I --
8 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Yes?
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I hate to cut
10 you off --
11 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Oh, is that
12 the clock? I'm sorry.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: -- because it's
14 exciting information you're sharing with us.
15 And perhaps, you know, we can have some
16 follow-up conversations offline on it.
17 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: I'm happy
18 to do that.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Right now I've
20 been -- and also I've known you for a while.
21 Congratulations in this new role --
22 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Thank you.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: -- and look
24 forward to continuing to work with you.
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1 I would like to turn it back over to
2 the -- our chair Senator Krueger for the next
3 witness.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Thank
5 you very much.
6 And yes, thank you, Commissioner
7 Rosado, and welcome to your new assignments
8 in Albany. We all look forward to continuing
9 to work with you. Clearly there are many
10 members who have I think some really
11 excellent ideas as well as proposals, so
12 thank you very much for your time today.
13 DCJS COMMISSIONER ROSADO: Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And we're going
15 to move now to -- for people who are
16 following, we have a very long agenda for the
17 remainder of the day. We're really only on
18 No. 5, Anthony Annucci, the New York State
19 Department of Corrections and Community
20 Supervision. And Anthony has been the acting
21 commissioner for a very long time, but
22 apparently he likes that job and doesn't want
23 to become the commissioner.
24 Are you with us, Commissioner?
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1 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Good
2 morning, Senator. Yes, I am with you.
3 And I'm also pleased to announce that
4 my name was submitted in nomination by
5 Governor Kathy Hochul. So I'm very pleased
6 about that and look forward to the
7 confirmation process.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Wonderful. And
9 you had the illusion you'd be testifying in
10 the morning, but for the record it is
11 actually a quarter to 3:00 in the afternoon.
12 (Laughter.)
13 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I
14 apologize.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: It's not your
16 fault.
17 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Good
18 afternoon --
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: It's our fault;
20 we have so many questions for everyone.
21 So please, you have 10 minutes to
22 submit your testimony to us.
23 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Sure.
24 Thank you.
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1 Good afternoon, Chairwoman Krueger,
2 Chairwoman Weinstein, and other distinguished
3 chairs and members of the Legislature. I am
4 Anthony J. Annucci, acting commissioner for
5 the Department of Corrections and Community
6 Supervision. It is my honor to discuss some
7 of the highlights of Governor Hochul's
8 Executive Budget plan and the various
9 initiatives that will benefit public safety.
10 Over the past year, while COVID-19 has
11 plagued our nation and state, the department
12 was not spared from its effects.
13 Accordingly, at the start of the pandemic I
14 convened a multidisciplinary COVID-19 Task
15 Force to guide our comprehensive response.
16 Throughout the pandemic, there have
17 been many heroes along the way. Our
18 essential workers, including corrections and
19 community supervision staff, came to work
20 every day and consistently carried out their
21 professional duties in a superb manner,
22 oftentimes going above and beyond their
23 traditional responsibilities. I am very
24 proud of the dedication and sacrifice staff
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1 have displayed throughout the duration of the
2 pandemic, and I thank them for their tireless
3 efforts and resoluteness, despite the obvious
4 risks.
5 Similarly, incarcerated individuals
6 have shown resiliency in the face of the many
7 changes in policies to keep them safe. They
8 too contributed to the response effort in a
9 variety of ways, such as manufacturing
10 millions of masks, gowns, and hand sanitizer,
11 that significantly helped to support and
12 protect fellow New Yorkers.
13 The dramatic reduction in the
14 incarcerated population has assisted our
15 ability to manage the system safely during
16 this pandemic. Through the efforts of the
17 Legislature in enacting various laws, and the
18 good work of DOCCS staff, New York leads the
19 nation with the lowest imprisonment rate of
20 any large state. Remarkably, the
21 incarcerated population, now under 30,500,
22 has decreased by more than 40,000 since 1999,
23 marking the lowest total since 1983, and
24 representing a 58 percent decline from its
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1 all-time high of 72,773. More significantly,
2 the total population reduction since
3 January 1, 2020, exceeds 13,700.
4 Even with these drastic reductions in
5 incarceration, New York proudly remains one
6 of the safest large states in the country.
7 With this significant reduction in
8 population, the state has safely eliminated
9 excess capacity through the closing of
10 correctional facilities and the removal of
11 all double bunks in our medium-security
12 facilities. This year's closure process is
13 underway with the transfer of staff to vacant
14 positions at other facilities or offices,
15 while the incarcerated population is
16 transitioned into vacant beds elsewhere.
17 There are no additional closures contemplated
18 in the upcoming fiscal year.
19 Despite the pandemic, the department
20 has worked hard on last year's new laws that
21 included implementing voter registration for
22 those being released from prison; moving
23 individuals to facilities in close proximity
24 to their children; preparing to enact the
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1 HALT and Less is More laws; and continuing to
2 expand our Medication Assisted Treatment
3 program. I look forward to seeing these bold
4 new initiatives come to fruition, and I
5 believe that they will lead to better
6 outcomes for both the incarcerated and
7 releasee populations.
8 The Governor has set a vision for this
9 state in the coming fiscal year, and the
10 department is excited to pursue many new
11 initiatives that will be more humane and
12 better prepare individuals for reentry to
13 their communities. In addition to
14 gender-affirming treatment for incarcerated
15 individuals, the Governor's Jails to Jobs
16 initiative prioritizes education by the
17 restoration of Tuition Assistance Program
18 funding for incarcerated students and an
19 expansion of eligibility for educational
20 release.
21 I have been a strong supporter of
22 education throughout my tenure as acting
23 commissioner, and I look forward to
24 implementing the Governor's vision to elevate
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1 education behind the walls to a whole new
2 level altogether.
3 Additionally, the other initiatives
4 include starting new programs that will align
5 with today’s workforce and conducting a
6 comprehensive review of existing vocational
7 programs to meet today's challenging job
8 market. We will work with the Division of
9 Criminal Justice Services to train reentry
10 managers and parole officers around the state
11 on career planning and job placement and
12 retention.
13 We will also leverage one of our
14 residential treatment facilities as a pilot
15 for use as transitional housing for
16 undomiciled parolees returning to New York
17 City.
18 Furthermore, we will offer stipends to
19 the head of households that provide
20 opportunities for those individuals to
21 transition to stable housing, and we will
22 eliminate the parole supervision fee.
23 Lastly, the Governor has proposed a
24 constitutional amendment to allow for
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1 public-private partnerships that would enable
2 hybrid work-release programs within our
3 facilities.
4 In conclusion, while we will continue
5 to tackle the many challenges posed by
6 COVID-19, under the Governor's vision, we
7 will continue to move this department forward
8 in support of a more just criminal justice
9 system that delivers necessary programs and
10 services while simultaneously advancing
11 safety within our facilities and in the
12 community.
13 I look forward to furthering the
14 Governor's agenda with the assistance of our
15 professional, well-trained and dedicated
16 workforce that performs its responsibilities
17 in an exemplary manner, often under dangerous
18 and difficult circumstances.
19 Thank you, and I will be happy to
20 answer any questions.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
22 much.
23 And our first questioner is the chair,
24 Julia Salazar.
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1 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you,
2 Chair Krueger.
3 Thank you so much, Commissioner, for
4 taking the time to testify today.
5 I wanted to begin by asking you about
6 the Governor's proposal to allow gender
7 affirming treatment for incarcerated
8 individuals. Does DOCCS currently take an
9 incarcerated individual's gender identity
10 into consideration when determining where
11 they will be housed?
12 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: The
13 answer, Senator, is yes, we do. We've had a
14 process in place for a number of years. We
15 have a central office committee composed of
16 deputy commissioners for program services and
17 facility operations and class and movement,
18 assistant commissioner for prayer and mental
19 health, counsel, and I believe program
20 services as well.
21 And every case is considered on an
22 individual basis. And we have moved
23 individuals -- I will just call them trans,
24 for purposes of this exchange. But we take
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1 them into consideration, they have been
2 moved.
3 A quick anecdotal story: When I was
4 in Rikers island doing a tour and I toured
5 their unit, one individual recognized me.
6 She was from a state facility, and she came
7 up to me and said, "Commissioner, I want to
8 thank you. I had been in a male facility,
9 you allowed me to be moved to a female
10 facility, Taconic. I'm much happier there."
11 And I said, "Always happy. We want you to
12 succeed and be safe."
13 So with that, we're prepared to
14 implement this new law, which will formalize
15 many of the existing processes and do many
16 other things; in particular, bring the locals
17 online so that we can better coordinate, in
18 advance, the information that we need before
19 transfer happens.
20 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you.
21 I'm curious about what effect the
22 Governor's proposal would have on DOCCS
23 online search -- you know, search of
24 incarcerated individuals. Will it display
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1 the gender identity that the person prefers
2 or their sex assigned at birth? Do you know
3 yet what the impact would be there?
4 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Well, I
5 can tell you that currently -- the sex that
6 appears currently matches the gender
7 classification of the facility.
8 But we are in the process of updating
9 the system to remove the sex field from
10 display from the lookup.
11 SENATOR SALAZAR: And I wanted to ask
12 also about the proposal to expand educational
13 release and furlough.
14 According to DOCCS' 2020 Temporary
15 Release Report, it looks like only six
16 individuals applied for educational release,
17 and none were approved. And according to
18 previous temporary release reports, since
19 2014 a total of only about 23 individuals
20 applied for educational release, and none
21 were approved.
22 So I wanted to clarify, based on what
23 the reports show, does zero participation
24 mean that zero applicants were approved? Is
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1 that correct, or were potentially some
2 approved and didn't participate for some
3 other reason?
4 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: More the
5 latter, Senator. We have a number of
6 temporary release programs, and people can
7 simultaneously be approved for work release
8 and educational leave, and they might choose
9 to participate in work release.
10 We have a number of other different
11 types of temporary release programs, and a
12 number of individuals may not have been
13 eligible by virtue of their crime.
14 The Governor's initiative changes this
15 dramatically, because it takes a whole cohort
16 that can't apply now, by allowing them to be
17 eligible. And these are people that have
18 been in the system a long time. Many of them
19 are doing very well in college programs, and
20 this will raise it to a whole new level by
21 letting our incarcerated students learn side
22 by side with students on the outside
23 campuses. Sometimes we brought the outside
24 students in; it has opened their eyes.
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1 This will open the respective
2 individuals' eyes to each other as they side
3 by side learn at the same time in classrooms.
4 SENATOR SALAZAR: Great. And assuming
5 that this policy is adopted in this year's
6 budget -- or, rather, it's in this year's
7 adopted budget -- and for the record, I hope
8 it will be -- how will incarcerated
9 individuals be informed of the policy change
10 of the expanded eligibility, both actually
11 for educational release but also for
12 furlough?
13 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Well, we
14 will assuredly make sure that we put out the
15 formal notices to the population. It may be
16 a memo from me to the entire population; it's
17 easy enough for me to write something
18 detailed to explain how it would work.
19 It's very exciting. We already have
20 so many in the college programs. We have,
21 for example, people at Otisville that might
22 be interested in continuing to apply and
23 participate in John Jay or wherever they
24 would be accepted.
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1 And the other benefit, it allows them
2 to participate in furlough at the same time.
3 So you would go temporarily to like
4 Queensboro, and then you would have a
5 furlough approved and you'd be allowed to go
6 there. And after a year and a half of
7 combined total, you would meet the limited
8 credit time allowance to allow you to
9 actually be released six months early.
10 So we will get the notice out. There
11 will be changes in the regulation. There
12 will be -- everyone that will need to know
13 will know how to do it and be eligible to
14 apply and be approved.
15 SENATOR SALAZAR: I want to pivot to a
16 different subject entirely, and that's the
17 Inspector General's report that was recently
18 released that revealed that DOCCS had
19 administered previously faulty drug tests,
20 which led to false positives and of course in
21 some cases -- in many cases -- led to
22 punishments for incarcerated people that
23 jeopardized their release dates or resulted
24 in punitive segregation.
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1 What action has DOCCS taken to respond
2 to this and remedy the situation where there
3 was harm caused by the false positives?
4 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Yes,
5 Senator, thank you very much for that
6 question. It is one of the most regrettable
7 things that happened in the past couple of
8 years.
9 I always say: If anything, a
10 corrections system has to be fair. We have
11 to hold ourselves accountable if we're ever
12 to teach individuals entrusted to our custody
13 to respect the law. We committed a terrible
14 mistake here.
15 I can tell you that we no longer have
16 that vendor and we've dramatically changed
17 our policies going forward. We (a) have a
18 new vendor for the preliminary test, and now
19 we have an outside laboratory that must
20 confirm any test that indicates a positive
21 result -- and only then will we take action.
22 Moreover, we have changed our
23 disciplinary system so that a positive drug
24 test is only a Tier 2, it's not a Tier 3.
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1 You can only get SHU or segregated
2 confinement with a Tier 3 offense. So we're
3 moving in a whole new direction altogether on
4 that.
5 What I also did, once we realized the
6 terrible mishap that had happened, I convened
7 a major task force of every single discipline
8 in our system, and we met on a regular basis.
9 So we had class and movement, we had guidance
10 and counseling, we had grievance, we had
11 temporary release. We had every program
12 imaginable -- we had discipline, facility
13 operations -- and we would review and counsel
14 everything about unwinding every individual
15 that had been affected, which included
16 everybody that legitimately was positive. It
17 wasn't everybody that was a false positive,
18 but in the interests of correcting this harm,
19 we simply took everybody that had a positive
20 test during that period and we took every
21 possible action to restore good time, to
22 expunge their records, to restore them to
23 temporary release, closer to home transfers,
24 whatever was involved. It was a massive
318
1 effort.
2 And I can also tell you that we do
3 have a lawsuit pending against the original
4 vendor, and I believe PLS and perhaps another
5 law firm also has a separate lawsuit on
6 behalf of the harmed incarcerated
7 individuals.
8 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you. It's
9 encouraging to hear that.
10 I wanted to ask you a bit about the
11 incarceration of older adults. When does an
12 incarcerated older person generally begin to
13 be defined as an older individual or as
14 aging? At what age would they be designated
15 that way by DOCCS?
16 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Senator,
17 it's more or less an informal designation.
18 It is not something that is defined as an
19 official classification.
20 So for example, for our senior
21 program, which is a program we're very proud
22 of, the age is 55 and older. For Adirondack
23 it's 65 and older.
24 I think generally speaking, because
319
1 we've compared ourselves to the regular
2 population, whereas you might look at
3 somebody 65 and older as a senior, it's fair
4 to use 55 as the cutoff, for a variety of
5 different reasons. Many individuals come to
6 us with having not had the best healthcare in
7 their lives. They may have had addiction
8 issues, they may have had smoking issues,
9 they may have high blood pressure. And then
10 of course add to that the stress of being
11 confined and being separated from family;
12 that could exacerbate any health problems.
13 So generally speaking, 55 and older is
14 kind of looked at by us as a senior category,
15 but it's an unofficial classification.
16 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you,
17 Commissioner. I have many more questions,
18 but I realize that I'm out of time, so I'll
19 give it back to you, Chair.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
21 much.
22 Assemblymember Weinstein.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes, we're
24 going to go to our ranker on Corrections,
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1 Assemblyman Giglio.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN GIGLIO: Thank you. Thank
3 you. Can you hear me?
4 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Yes.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN GIGLIO: Good afternoon,
6 Commissioner. It's good to see you.
7 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Good to
8 see you.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN GIGLIO: And I've got some
10 questions. My first question is, you've
11 mentioned population. And you mentioned that
12 population keeps dropping. And you use 1999
13 as your base point. Of course it's going to
14 seem excessive at that point when you go back
15 that many years. I'd be more curious to -- a
16 closer part. How about like 2015 to 2021, to
17 give us actual numbers, and see how much the
18 drop -- you know, how dramatic that was.
19 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I can
20 give you all those numbers. I can even go
21 back 50 years to give you the entire numbers.
22 I can tell you that prior to twenty --
23 prior to COVID, which was 2020, that in 2019
24 we had the single biggest drop in the history
321
1 of Corrections. And so we -- our decline
2 matched the declining crime rate and came
3 well past all the Rockefeller drug laws.
4 I have a chart here, I can give you
5 the population totals from 2021 going back to
6 1970. I think 2018 we were at 47,459; 2017,
7 50,271; 2016, 51,466; 2015, 52,344.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN GIGLIO: Okay. Well,
9 thank you. Thank you.
10 I'd like now to get to what nobody's
11 talked about yet, is the men and women that
12 work in Corrections. How much overtime costs
13 are included in this budget, and how many of
14 these people are forced to work overtime?
15 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I don't
16 have the current overtime numbers for you,
17 Assemblyman. I certainly can get them for
18 you. It's something we try to avoid.
19 It was a real challenge managing
20 through COVID, it really was. There were
21 huge numbers of people at any one time who
22 had to be quarantined at home or tested
23 positive, et cetera.
24 I can tell you that right now we're
322
1 making big inroads into redistributing the
2 staff where they're needed, because the staff
3 are moving from the closed facilities to the
4 facilities where there are huge numbers of
5 vacancies. So we're making some significant
6 progress there. There's another whole
7 movement of staff scheduled in a couple of
8 weeks, in February. That will further help.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN GIGLIO: Thank you. Can
10 you give me a ratio of how many inmates to
11 one correction officer, say on the midnight
12 shift?
13 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: One to
14 three, I believe, is the current number.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN GIGLIO: Okay, thank you.
16 Now, the other thing I'd like to know
17 about is what kind of training are you
18 providing for the men and women that work
19 within Corrections to help them deal with the
20 COVID problem and every other problem that
21 they're facing right now?
22 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Well, we
23 have a whole slew of different resources from
24 our health services staff that are
323
1 continually providing updated information.
2 We make the vaccine available, we provide
3 protective equipment, masks, et cetera.
4 Training in general is something we
5 always pursue. I have a task force that I've
6 just formed where I've invited and I'm
7 getting participation by union
8 representatives so that we can work together
9 to address prison violence. We train on
10 implicit violence {sic}, deescalation
11 training. And I also make it a big priority
12 to provide them with all the latest equipment
13 as a safety -- not just the regular pepper
14 spray, but new pepper spray that -- MK that
15 should help in certain situations like when
16 there's a melee in the yard and it's a group
17 of individuals fighting.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN GIGLIO: Okay. So what
19 kind of mental health services again are you
20 providing for these folks that are under such
21 pressure to perform on a daily basis?
22 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I have a
23 huge priority centered around wellness, and
24 my associate commissioner for mental health
324
1 is chairing it.
2 We deal with corrections systems
3 across the country so that we can learn what
4 they are doing, and we have new apps that
5 we're putting on phones to make available for
6 them. We have telephone contacts that they
7 can make if someone's feeling stressed and
8 potentially wanting to harm themselves. Many
9 other things --
10 ASSEMBLYMAN GIGLIO: They know all
11 this is opportunity for them and all's they
12 have to do is ask?
13 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: We're
14 making it available. We have systems staff
15 to make it available for them, and many other
16 things.
17 We have an employee assistance
18 program, and they have all kinds of contacts
19 that they make available to our staff. So we
20 try very hard --
21 ASSEMBLYMAN GIGLIO: I have one more
22 question -- I don't mean to cut you off, sir,
23 but one more question. What are you guys
24 doing about recruitment to get people to come
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1 and take these jobs now under the conditions
2 that they're being offered?
3 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: We
4 aggressively advertise at different fairs.
5 We put notices out to different individuals
6 so that we can get the word out.
7 I want people to understand that we
8 are a very progressive system. We prioritize
9 wellness, we prioritize our people. And I
10 think our last announcement was about 5,000
11 that it went out to. So I think the word is
12 getting out. And people are interested,
13 especially who know -- who know people that
14 have families, and they know it's a good
15 place to work.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN GIGLIO: Thank you, sir.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to the
18 Senate.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
20 much.
21 Our next questioner is Senator Pat
22 Ritchie.
23 SENATOR RITCHIE: Thank you,
24 Chairwoman.
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1 Commissioner, I have a couple of
2 questions starting with the issue of violence
3 in our facilities that I'm really concerned
4 about. You sent out a memo in November, I
5 believe it was, that described some of the
6 violent actions as savagery. And that is
7 definitely concerning.
8 So part two of that question is
9 instead of closing correctional facilities
10 like Ogdensburg Correctional Facility --
11 where the staff feels safe, where those
12 individuals who are incarcerated there wrote
13 letters to myself and the Governor begging
14 for the facility to be kept open because they
15 felt safe there -- instead, the facilities
16 continue to be closed, including OCF, in a
17 time when we have 60 to one -- 60 individuals
18 incarcerated to one officer at midnight, on
19 the midnight shift during COVID, when you
20 would think that it would be the best time to
21 space out not only staff but those
22 individuals who are incarcerated.
23 So I would like to know what caused
24 you to send out that memo, but also what
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1 caused you to close Ogdensburg Correctional
2 Facility, given the positives there,
3 including $10 million that was just spent on
4 upgrading the facility that I believe is
5 supposed to be completed this month, and the
6 fact that we have an incidence of rise in
7 violence. And would not it make more sense
8 to keep those incarcerated separated more and
9 keeping these other facilities open, at least
10 during COVID?
11 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: A lot to
12 address there, Senator. Let me try to do as
13 thorough a job as I can.
14 First of all, never an easy decision
15 to close any correctional facility. The
16 staff at Ogdensburg have always done a great
17 job. It's very difficult to tell them that
18 we need to close. They did nothing wrong.
19 There's no density problem whatsoever.
20 We have thousands and thousands and thousands
21 of vacancies throughout the system. I'm not
22 sure where you got the 60-to-1 ratio. We've
23 taken down all the double bunks in the
24 system, which means the maximum number at any
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1 one time at any medium-security prototype
2 dorm is 50.
3 I can tell you that what prompted me
4 to send out that memo was that there were
5 some serious assaults -- it's not raw
6 number -- serious assault where somebody was
7 seriously beaten and the individual was in a
8 rage at the time. There's about three or
9 four of them at a time.
10 And I put that memo out there because
11 I wanted the individuals to realize that
12 there are going to be serious consequences.
13 We have liaisons with outside prosecutors
14 throughout the entire state. And if you
15 seriously assault an officer or any staff, if
16 you commit a Class B violent felony offense,
17 that is punishable by a consecutive 25-year
18 determinate sentence. And I wanted everybody
19 to understand that.
20 We continue to work together with the
21 union. We created the Prison Violence Task
22 Force, and we will work together, we'll get
23 their recommendations, we'll look at a number
24 of different things to make sure that we run
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1 the safest possible system.
2 One thing I'm very thankful of, since
3 being acting commissioner I've never had to
4 add another name either to the Correction
5 Officer Memorial or the Parole Officer
6 Memorial. And that is something that is very
7 important to me, and I want to keep going in
8 that direction.
9 SENATOR RITCHIE: Well, my time is up,
10 but I would just like to say I find it
11 totally in opposition to what I believe
12 should be happening in COVID. I am certainly
13 not saying COVID is not serious. I
14 wholeheartedly think we all should be doing
15 everything we can.
16 But I don't -- I don't understand why
17 we would be closing facilities in the middle
18 of a pandemic and sending people away from
19 their families at this moment.
20 Thank you, Commissioner.
21 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Sure.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
23 Just want to remind everyone,
24 including chairs, to please make sure -- if
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1 you want to speak, please raise your hand
2 virtually. We can't just look over at you.
3 I want to next go to Assemblyman
4 Weprin, the chair of our Corrections
5 Committee. Ten minutes, Mr. Weprin, please.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Thank you,
7 Madam Chair.
8 Thank you, Commissioner Annucci. This
9 is now my sixth year, starting my sixth year
10 as chair of the committee, and I've enjoyed
11 working with you for these many years. And I
12 know you've been involved a lot longer, but I
13 look forward to your tenure under Governor
14 Hochul once you're confirmed.
15 I wanted -- as you know, we've been on
16 a number of panels together on educational
17 release. I've had legislation for years
18 about educational release, which -- and the
19 answer, the pushback has always been that we
20 didn't have TAP for incarcerated individuals.
21 Obviously the Governor has proposed changing
22 that, and I'm hoping with TAP there will be a
23 way to pay for it.
24 Can you just get into, for me, how
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1 this new initiative on educational release as
2 well as furlough will be operated? And how
3 are you going to see that you have the
4 maximum amount of people that are eligible?
5 Because I know you're very committed to
6 education in facilities.
7 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Thank
8 you, Assemblyman. And you're right, it's a
9 pleasure working with you. I look forward to
10 continuing to collaborate, and especially on
11 something like education. We've both been at
12 events where education and higher education,
13 college has been prioritized.
14 So let me say that first of all we
15 already have a fairly developed network of
16 college programs. And I can also tell you
17 that I just came from a conference where I
18 heard a briefing on the potential rules and
19 regulations for the restoration of Pell
20 funding, which will be coming in about a
21 year, I believe. And so the eligibility for
22 TAP will coincide nicely.
23 And I believe that that will help
24 further build the option of the different
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1 colleges that are out there and can build
2 upon what they're able to offer.
3 I can tell you that if there is one
4 single thing that really addresses
5 recidivism, it is the word "education." More
6 than anything else, education is
7 transformative. I think that's the key thing
8 for everybody to understand. And you not
9 only see that from the studies that are
10 performed, you see that from the individuals
11 who have been through the system and
12 completely changed their lives around.
13 And I can tell you that we will work
14 with the current students that are there, we
15 will look at who becomes eligible for
16 educational release, meaning that if they're
17 in a college program and they come within two
18 years of their earliest release date, and
19 they have one year already of college under
20 their belt, they can then transfer into the
21 general confinement facility, but probably a
22 facility like Queensboro in New York City,
23 and start there and then enroll in classes
24 and then get approved for a furlough on the
333
1 weekends and come back to the facility, you
2 know, when they have to.
3 So they gradually get -- almost like a
4 work release inmate -- to the point where
5 they fully get LCTA credit. And then when
6 they release their -- reach their LCTA
7 release date, they get released.
8 So they'll be studying in the same
9 classrooms, on the same campuses with other
10 individuals, and I think it's a great
11 learning experience for everybody.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Can you tell me,
13 as a follow-up, how many and approximately
14 what percentage of incarcerated individuals
15 in DOCCS custody are enrolled in college-
16 degree-granting programs? And how many
17 facilities are offering a degree-granting
18 program?
19 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: So right
20 now I think it's -- we have a college program
21 in 30 different facilities. And I think we
22 currently have about 23 different higher
23 education institutions that are delivering at
24 30 different correctional facilities.
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1 I have to get you the exact number. I
2 think obviously with COVID we had our
3 challenges. But we have been able to deliver
4 programming through the tablet program,
5 through the Ashland College that delivers it
6 through the tablets, and we have the ability
7 for others to use that technology as well.
8 So I'll get the exact number of
9 current participants, but I think I -- it's
10 about 2056 right now is the current number of
11 college participants. I'd have to do an
12 analysis of how many of them are within two
13 years of their earliest release date, and
14 that's the ones. And if they have one year
15 of college under their belt, they'd be able
16 to go into educational release.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Okay, I just want
18 to talk a little bit about deaths in prison.
19 As you know, we passed legislation to prevent
20 the redaction where you can't even determine
21 what the deaths were.
22 And of course the Rikers Island
23 situation with the highlighting of how many
24 people have died in the last year in prison,
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1 you know, has gotten obviously a lot of
2 airing in the public.
3 It was the Columbia university report
4 that found that an incarcerated person in
5 New York State prisons dies every three days.
6 How many total incarcerated people have died
7 in DOCCS custody in 2021?
8 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I think
9 I have that number here. And I may have
10 misplaced it. One second. Give me a few
11 moments.
12 There were 136 deaths reported in
13 2021. Which is an increase of 14 from the
14 year before, 122. And 97 were considered
15 natural causes; that's about 71 percent.
16 (Pause.)
17 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Hello?
18 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I can
19 hear you.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Okay, I lost you
21 for a second. Technology problems.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. Are you
23 still with us?
24 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: I'm still with
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1 you.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Are there any
3 more --
4 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Yeah, along the
5 same line as deaths in prison, I know there
6 are a number of states that actually publish
7 online various deaths in prison. Is that
8 something that DOCCS would be able to
9 consider?
10 And also I know there's been a lot of
11 information about, you know, deaths related
12 to COVID, but I think it's important that we
13 know what the cause of a lot of these deaths
14 are in facilities. Commissioner, would you
15 be able to comment on that?
16 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Yeah,
17 certainly we'll consider that, Assemblyman.
18 One of the things is sometimes we
19 don't always know the cause of death for a
20 little bit of time. As you know, every
21 single death is required, under the County
22 Law Section 674, to have an autopsy
23 performed. If it's an outside hospital or if
24 it's inside a facility, wherever it occurs,
337
1 an autopsy must be performed, even if
2 seemingly it might be natural causes, like
3 somebody has cancer or what have you.
4 Now, that may take a little bit of
5 time before we get the final results. So
6 we're always a little bit behind where we
7 are. COVID deaths are posted.
8 But we'll consider whether or not at
9 any one time we would post that. Certainly I
10 think -- I can see giving the accurate
11 information. But the final determination as
12 to whether or not something is a
13 natural-cause death or a drug overdose death
14 is something that may have to wait until nine
15 months or whatever until we get an autopsy
16 report.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Okay, thank you,
18 Commissioner.
19 One last question on the area of the
20 public/private partnership and increasing
21 work release programs with the private sector
22 once it's allowed. I know there was an issue
23 with paying labor.
24 I mean, what's contemplated as far as
338
1 how much incarcerated individuals will be
2 paid by the private sector? Have you
3 determined that? And has there been
4 discussions about, you know, what wages would
5 be paid to those incarcerated individuals
6 doing, in many cases, skilled labor?
7 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: They
8 would be paid the exact same salary that
9 John Q. Private Citizen would get doing that
10 same job in the private sector. If somebody
11 is, on the outside, making X dollars an hour
12 working in a food establishment, and that
13 same food establishment is working them
14 behind the walls, they would get the same
15 exact rate of pay. There's going to be no
16 difference whatsoever.
17 Just like now in work release. You
18 participate in work release, you get the same
19 salary, the labor laws are applicable, you
20 pay taxes on your salary, et cetera. Just
21 like that, it would work behind the walls.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: I know you've
23 been doing a lot of work on vocational
24 programs, so I look forward to a
339
1 public/private partnership with expanded
2 opportunity for incarcerated individuals. So
3 I look forward to that.
4 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Thank
5 you, Assemblyman.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Thank you,
8 Madam Chair. I don't know if my time's up,
9 but it probably is.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Sure, you gave
11 us back 13 seconds.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thirteen seconds.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senator?
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you so
15 much.
16 Senator Pete Harckham.
17 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Thank you,
18 Madam Chair.
19 Commissioner, good afternoon. Thank
20 you for your testimony. Good to see you.
21 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Good to
22 see you, Senator.
23 SENATOR HARCKHAM: And congratulations
24 on your appointment. That's good news.
340
1 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Thank
2 you.
3 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Let's talk a bit
4 about medication-assisted treatment. As we
5 know, the largest per-capita group of deaths
6 from overdose are from recently released
7 folks from incarceration.
8 So in the beginning of your testimony
9 you alluded to expanding medication-assisted
10 treatment. So if you could tell us in detail
11 what you're doing, but also how we're going
12 to have a continuum of care so when people
13 leave from behind the walls to get out into
14 society, that medication-assisted treatment
15 prescription is going with them in some sort
16 of continuity of care.
17 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: So let
18 me first address people leaving.
19 We've made it a big priority to make
20 sure that individuals get registered on
21 Medicaid before they leave. We've hired a
22 number of clerks that their job is to go
23 around and register individuals so that they
24 have the Medicaid card when they leave.
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1 We have all forms of MAT right now in
2 a number of different facilities. I may be
3 able to give you the breakdown, but we are
4 expanding it. We have methadone, we have
5 buprenorphine and -- naltrexone? I'm sorry,
6 it's eluded my mind for a moment.
7 But we're expanding the program now,
8 and we were planning to put out an RFP in
9 February so that we have one provider that
10 will be able to respond to all of our
11 facilities. Our target is to be able to have
12 MAT present in 40 facilities I think by
13 sometime later this year -- I'll get you the
14 exact month. But we are moving forward
15 aggressively with that. We strongly believe
16 in it. It will have to continue with the
17 appropriate connections to the providers in
18 the community when we get out. It's part of
19 discharge planning. It is lifesaving.
20 We also do training for the population
21 so that they can take with them kits when
22 they leave to be able to resuscitate someone
23 who might be on an overdose that they
24 encounter in the community.
342
1 So it is an initiative we're
2 proceeding on multiple fronts. It is
3 lifesaving. There's no question people dying
4 of drug overdoses in the communities is on
5 the rise. We need to do everything possible
6 to safeguard that.
7 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Thank you. That
8 all sounds very promising.
9 Do you know what the increased number
10 of individuals from those who are receiving
11 medication today to when you expand the
12 program to the other facilities?
13 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I do. I
14 have a projection, it was based upon
15 screening that we've done in the population.
16 And I have a number, I just don't have it at
17 my fingertips --
18 SENATOR HARCKHAM: If you want to get
19 it to me offline, that would be great.
20 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Sure,
21 absolutely, Senator.
22 SENATOR HARCKHAM: All right. Thank
23 you for your testimony.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you,
343
1 Senator.
2 Assemblywoman Weinstein.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes. Next we
4 have Assemblyman Lawler.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: Thank you. And
6 thank you, Commissioner, for being with us.
7 Over the past six months or so I've
8 visited Sing Sing, Rikers, and my county
9 jail, and one of my biggest takeaways from
10 visiting these facilities was really the need
11 to support our corrections officers, as well
12 as the need for some level of punitive
13 segregation.
14 And I note that in November you sent a
15 memo to the incarcerated population where you
16 described some of the violent actions as,
17 quote, unquote, savagery. And I want to know
18 what exactly prompted this memo, and why did
19 you specifically use that terminology?
20 And you talk about holding individuals
21 accountable to the fullest extent of the law
22 in that memo. What does that mean, in your
23 mind?
24 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: So as I
344
1 said earlier, there were several different
2 attacks that rise to the level of something I
3 hadn't seen in a while -- cutting an officer
4 seriously on the face, breaking orbital
5 bones, knocking a female officer down and
6 trying to stomp on her with boots. Those are
7 the examples that I was talking about.
8 They're very serious.
9 And the message I wanted to send was
10 that for those small number of individuals
11 that think it's okay to do that, there are
12 going to be serious repercussions. We have a
13 saying in corrections: 95 percent of the
14 problems that are caused by incarcerated
15 individuals are caused by 5 percent of the
16 individuals. It's a small number that
17 disproportionately cause the most harm.
18 And in order for them to understand
19 what might happen, I put that memo out that
20 described in detail these are the convictions
21 that will happen if you commit these acts.
22 We have liaisons with every single prosecutor
23 office in the state. We pay -- by operation
24 of law, we pay for all the costs related to
345
1 incarceration. So if this is going to happen
2 and we have these liaisons, we are going to
3 pursue a consecutive sentence of imprisonment
4 for these types of acts.
5 Again, it's a small number, but they
6 need to have their --
7 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: I appreciate -- I
8 appreciate that explanation, and I support
9 you in that. And absolutely do what you need
10 to do to keep your corrections officers safe.
11 With the time I have left, I just want
12 to make a statement to you with respect to
13 community supervision and the Parole Board.
14 I think the Parole Board is an absolute
15 disgrace. I think what they have done in
16 just this past calendar year -- in my
17 district, they've released a domestic
18 terrorist and cop killer who was responsible
19 for the deaths of two law enforcement
20 officers in the 1981 Brinks robbery, and they
21 released a child rapist and murderer who
22 killed a 16-year-old girl on her way home
23 from school -- from work at the library.
24 It's an absolute disgrace what has
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1 happened, and I hope you'll support my
2 efforts to reform the Parole Board and stop
3 the release of unrepentant cop killers and
4 child rapists and murderers.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you, we
6 go to the Senate.
7 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:
8 Assemblyman, I just need to respond that I
9 have the utmost respect for the chairwoman
10 and the Board of Parole. They work very,
11 very hard. It's basically a thankless job.
12 No matter what they decide, someone is going
13 to be upset with the decision. And it's
14 never an easy decision. I respect your
15 opinion, and you may be critical of them for
16 that, but they work very hard and in an often
17 thankless job.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
19 Senator Bailey.
20 SENATOR BAILEY: Thank you,
21 Madam Chair.
22 Thank you, Commissioner, for
23 appearing.
24 Senator Harckham asked a lot of the
347
1 questions related to the MAT in prison
2 facilities that I was going to ask, and I was
3 going to ask -- I was going to thank you for
4 what DOCCS has been doing in order to make
5 sure we implement this lifesaving treatment,
6 which is quite frankly -- and I see my good
7 friend Senator Akshar on the Zoom. We've
8 spoken about this, and this is clearly a
9 bipartisan issue and this is something that
10 we can all agree on. So I thank you for
11 understanding that, that this expansion is
12 critical.
13 I just wanted to ask I guess one brief
14 question, yes. And I see I do only get three
15 minutes, I do not get the 10 minutes on this
16 one. I just wanted to ask a brief question
17 about the TAP for incarcerated individuals.
18 If its place is in the budget and it
19 goes through the process, at what rate would
20 it be able to expand within DOCCS facilities?
21 And how would you see that expansion in
22 facilities?
23 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I didn't
24 hear the first part of the question, Senator.
348
1 The expansion of MAT, did you say?
2 SENATOR BAILEY: No, no, I was
3 thanking you for MAT because I was talking
4 about the expansion of TAP.
5 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I'm
6 sorry, I apologize for that.
7 I can't really predict exactly how
8 this is going to play out at this time. I
9 know that we're involved with State Ed. I
10 know that we previously used to have a number
11 of individuals who received the benefit of
12 TAP funding and Pell funding. Certainly
13 we'll work with the colleges.
14 I think, you know, it's just like in
15 years gone by when they dealt with the
16 applicants and they decided who was eligible.
17 There might be a statutory structure to what
18 might be involved. If we need to enter into
19 MOUs with colleges or other types of legal
20 arrangements, we will.
21 Presently when we deal with the
22 colleges, we don't require them to enter into
23 anything formal. But whatever the
24 Legislature would want us to do to ensure the
349
1 integrity and the fairness and the
2 distribution of funding for incarcerated
3 students, we will certainly support and make
4 it happen.
5 Again, I repeat, education is
6 transformative. It's the single most
7 important thing to deliver for incarcerated
8 individuals to lower recidivism.
9 SENATOR BAILEY: Without a doubt. And
10 I would say that I had a chance to tour Green
11 Haven and I saw the BPI individuals and I got
12 to witness the magic, for lack of a better
13 term, in that classroom, and it was quite
14 incredible.
15 And I would just hope that -- I know
16 my actual formal time is ending shortly. I
17 just wanted to make sure I underlined the
18 point that in having these conversations with
19 our SUNY and CUNY institutions that we should
20 make sure that us as legislators and you as
21 DOCCS, we're having substantive conversations
22 about the expansion and making sure that we
23 can take on as many individuals as possible.
24 Because as I tell my kids, as I will tell any
350
1 kid, we should never be discouraging anybody
2 from being able to pursue an education.
3 So I just want to say thank you for
4 your time, Commissioner, and thank you,
5 Madam Chair.
6 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Thank
7 you, Senator.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
9 Assemblyman Walczyk.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Thank you,
11 Chairwoman.
12 Commissioner, the inmate on staff
13 violence is increasing at a faster rate than
14 inmate on inmate violence, at least according
15 to the numbers that we've got from your
16 department. Drugs are like a sieve in our
17 facilities, and you've ignored some of the
18 recommendations that this body has sent to
19 you. Retention is bad, morale is terrible.
20 You're continually closing facilities and
21 moving families all over New York State. The
22 Academy is short and not graduating as many
23 as it used to, so your advertising at fairs
24 probably isn't going to cut it when it comes
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1 to some of those shortfalls.
2 As far as incentives go, are you
3 looking at raises for corrections officers,
4 doing any staff increases? Or how about
5 tuition reimbursement or loan forgiveness for
6 corrections officers?
7 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I don't
8 believe we have any of those in the pipeline.
9 But we're always looking at a number of
10 different things to improve morale or
11 wellness.
12 I think that their participation on
13 this task force is very, very important. We
14 didn't just want superintendents or central
15 office types, we want the rank and file to be
16 represented. We want to hear from them
17 directly what they think.
18 And I think you're seeing, in society
19 in general -- it's not just the violence in
20 the streets, you're seeing it on airlines,
21 you're seeing it with traffic accidents,
22 you're seeing generally Americans being
23 intolerant with one another, and it's playing
24 out in a lot of different forms, including
352
1 our correctional facilities.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Well,
3 commissioner, respectfully, this isn't crime
4 on the streets, this is crime in your
5 facilities. This is inmate-on-staff violence
6 increasing at a faster rate than
7 inmate-on-inmate violence. How do you square
8 that? What's responsible for that?
9 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I don't
10 have an easy answer. I intend to get
11 feedback.
12 But back to your question on raises, I
13 can tell you that the collective bargaining
14 agreement does call for increases, and that's
15 in our budget presently. And I think there
16 is a provision for tuition reimbursement as
17 well.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: How does your
19 staff that works in these facilities every
20 single day, doing a dangerous job, that is
21 getting assaulted with more frequency, feel
22 about free college for the individuals under
23 their care?
24 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I can't
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1 speak for them. They'd have to speak for
2 themselves. But ultimately if they're
3 taxpayers and it results in less people
4 coming back to prison and more people
5 becoming law-abiding citizens and more people
6 paying taxes, I think they would be happy as
7 taxpayers.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Will the inmates
9 receiving free college be screened for drugs?
10 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: They
11 won't be separated out. We have general
12 random testing of the population, all with
13 probable cause. That will be continued.
14 And if somebody misbehaves while
15 they're in a college program, as is the case
16 now, they could forfeit their place in the
17 program.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: I'm glad you
19 brought that up. What misconduct would
20 disqualify them from free college?
21 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Well,
22 any misconduct of a serious nature. It
23 doesn't have to be just one particular type.
24 It could be an assault, it could be
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1 destruction of property, it could be
2 paraphernalia. Anything of any serious
3 nature could result in your being removed
4 from a college program -- or any program, for
5 that matter.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: I'm out of time.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
8 Senator Sue Serino.
9 SENATOR SERINO: Thank you,
10 Chairwoman.
11 And thank you, Commissioner. I have a
12 couple of questions. And I just want to say
13 I also share Senator Ritchie's comments that
14 she had mentioned earlier.
15 You know, as you know, I represent the
16 district where Downstate Correctional
17 Facility is located, and Downstate employs
18 more than 600 residents who have made their
19 homes in and around Dutchess County. I have
20 to say I'm deeply disappointed with how we
21 received news of the proposed closure. And
22 in your letter in November, you noted that
23 you were mindful of the impact the closure
24 would have on the community. However, to
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1 date, I'm not aware that any stakeholders,
2 whether local lawmakers, union
3 representatives, the facility employees or
4 others, were consulted before the closure was
5 announced.
6 You claim you also did a detailed
7 review, but where are the details and why
8 weren't critical stakeholders consulted or a
9 public meeting held?
10 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Senator,
11 respectfully, if we were to consult in
12 advance of announcing a closure with any
13 interested stakeholder anywhere in the state,
14 we would still have 72 correctional
15 facilities and a population of 30,000, which
16 the taxpayers would not tolerate.
17 I am so sensitive to the impact on
18 communities. We look at a whole number of
19 factors, we look at programs that are
20 offered, we look at infrastructure, we look
21 at capital improvements that are needed, we
22 look at neighboring facilities that are close
23 by -- there's a whole host of factors that we
24 look at in determining to close.
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1 Once closure is announced, the
2 number-one priority I have is to try as hard
3 as we can to arrange a soft landing for all
4 affected staff. I want them to have the
5 opportunity to continue to be employed in our
6 system in as close-as-possible other location
7 or at least with the state.
8 We've met with the staff. I send my
9 HR directors down there, they explain what
10 their rights are, they meet with the union
11 individuals, they go through this, and then
12 we try and arrange the transfer so that they
13 can continue in our employ. Which --
14 SENATOR SERINO: With all due respect,
15 Commissioner, because you were just talking
16 about employees having continued employment,
17 so can you tell us, did they have to uproot
18 their families and move elsewhere? Do you
19 know where the employees are being
20 reassigned?
21 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Oh, yes.
22 When they're being reassigned, they're given
23 the option -- we can tell you where they've
24 gone, to each facility and how much of a
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1 distance it is.
2 I don't have that at my fingertips,
3 but I can give you that information for those
4 that are --
5 SENATOR SERINO: I'd like to follow up
6 with you with that also. And there's another
7 concern.
8 The Glenham Fire District is located
9 like directly adjacent to Downstate and has
10 been providing fire emergency response there
11 for over 20 years through a contract with the
12 state. And this contract actually provides
13 fire protection coverage, which includes
14 mutual aid protection in the event that a
15 firefighter is injured or equipment is
16 damaged during a mutual-aid response.
17 Given that the need for fire and
18 emergency response will remain for the
19 facility after its closure, will continue
20 once the facility is closed, so are -- is
21 there going to be aid for the fire companies
22 for the facilities?
23 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I'll
24 have to look into that, Senator. I'm not
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1 aware that we've ever done that in the past.
2 But if there is a legitimate need and there's
3 a way to do it, we'll find a way to do it.
4 We have a whole process that we follow
5 when we're closing a correctional facility,
6 in the maintenance that we have to do and
7 ensuring that it still is a viable asset for
8 potential reuse. There's a lot of different
9 things that we will look at.
10 I'll certainly take that under
11 advisement and see if there's anything that
12 can be done.
13 SENATOR SERINO: I hope that that --
14 the contract will just continue and not have
15 a lapse.
16 And I just want to say, again, how
17 disappointed I was in the way this has
18 unfolded, especially when the Governor
19 promised to be someone who governs by
20 listening. These employees never even got a
21 chance to make their voice heard -- in a
22 surprise holiday announcement, and with just
23 a couple of months' notice. It's just not
24 right. These men and women put their lives
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1 on the line every day to do a very dangerous
2 job, and the way they were treated here isn't
3 right.
4 And I really urge my colleagues to do
5 all that they can to prohibit these 90-day
6 closures and enact a better process going
7 forward.
8 Thank you, Commissioner.
9 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I
10 respect your position, Senator.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
12 Assemblymember Weinstein.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
14 Assemblywoman Mitaynes.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: Thank you.
16 Good afternoon. Are you aware that
17 the state owes a legal duty to incarcerated
18 people to prevent their death, including by
19 suicide? And how many people died by suicide
20 in DOCCS custody last year? And can you
21 describe what conditions in DOCCS facilities
22 are causing incarcerated New Yorkers in DOCCS
23 custody to take their own lives?
24 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: So thank
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1 you for that question. And preventing
2 suicide is a challenge to every single
3 correction commissioner in the country. And
4 I belong to an association, we meet
5 periodically. There's 50 of us in the
6 country, and it is something that is very
7 challenging and very difficult.
8 I have many different initiatives that
9 are related to suicide prevention. I have
10 two hours of annual training mandated for
11 every single employee. I have every single
12 employee that works in one of our mental
13 health treatment units, they receive an
14 annual amount of training I think of either
15 six or eight hours.
16 We have all kinds of new initiatives
17 to remind families of individuals that if
18 they become aware of any indicia that someone
19 may be thinking of taking their own life,
20 they should let the officials know in the
21 facilities. There's a prompt that is
22 activated when a phone call is made to the
23 family. They hear that. There's a prompt
24 that is made when someone sends a secure
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1 message. We have posters.
2 We have downloaded a video on the
3 tablet that was made by an incarcerated
4 individual at Attica Correctional Facility as
5 part of a TEDx talk where he talked about his
6 own journey and why he was at one point
7 thinking of taking his own life and why he
8 sees value in his own life.
9 This past Christmas we played, for the
10 entire population -- donated 100 copies of
11 the movie "It's a Wonderful Life" and a
12 message to the population by two of the
13 surviving actors. The message of that movie
14 is everybody's life matters, everybody's life
15 touches another life.
16 So we are trying so many different
17 things to make the population understand,
18 regardless of what they've done in the past,
19 it's never too late to do good. Your life
20 still matters. You still have value. We
21 need to look after each other.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: Thank you.
23 And really quickly, in 2016 the Second
24 Circuit Court of Appeals found DOCCS
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1 grievance procedures were so opaque and
2 confusing that they were, practically
3 speaking, incapable of use and so confusing
4 that no ordinary prisoner can discern or
5 navigate them, and recommended that DOCCS
6 revise its grievance procedures to make them
7 more usable.
8 Can you explain what DOCCS has done
9 since then to improve its grievance
10 procedures and whether the filing of
11 grievances has been added as a function to
12 the electronic tablets distributed to
13 incarcerated people?
14 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Yes. We
15 have added the grievance process to our
16 tablets. I'm not -- well, it's in the
17 process of being worked on but it's not yet
18 been done. But it is certainly an area that
19 definitely needs improvement, and it is
20 something that we'll give our attention to
21 going forward.
22 The prior question you asked was the
23 total number of suicides in 2020-'21. I
24 think it was 16.
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1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: Thank you.
2 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you. I --
3 this is Senator Hoylman. I think Chair
4 Krueger --
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes, I was
6 going to call on you, Senator Hoylman.
7 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Oh, thank you.
8 Thank you.
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: You're next.
10 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you,
11 Madam Chair.
12 Thank you. Good to see you, Acting
13 Commissioner. First I just wanted to
14 compliment you for your defense of the use of
15 TAP for incarcerated individuals. And I want
16 to thank you and the Governor for your
17 support of that and particularly the Bard
18 Prison Initiative, which we've seen such
19 success come from.
20 I wanted to ask you about various
21 studies from newspapers like the New York
22 Times and Albany Times Union, NYU Law School,
23 the Vera Institute for Justice, that have
24 shown that the Parole Board grants release to
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1 white individuals far more frequently than
2 Black and Latinx people, even when you
3 control for factors such as crime and
4 disciplinary record.
5 Do you have any comments about that
6 disparity? And what can we do to address it
7 in terms of the Parole Board's release rates?
8 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Well,
9 first of all, Senator, let me say that the
10 Parole Board is the most diverse Parole Board
11 that -- throughout my experience with
12 Corrections, and I've been here 37 years.
13 I can give you the breakdown -- I'll
14 separately send it to you -- are women of
15 color, men of color and Hispanic and all the
16 different categories. So it's the most
17 diverse it has ever been.
18 Second of all, these studies I
19 question significantly, because there's no
20 way anyone on the outside can actually have
21 all the information in order to do an
22 apples-to-apples, oranges-to-oranges
23 comparison. You have to even actually do a
24 further dive. You have to look at, you know,
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1 Empire apples to Empire apples, McIntosh
2 apples to McIntosh apples, because there's so
3 many different factors in an individual's
4 background, starting with his criminal
5 history or her criminal history.
6 We have a second felony offender law
7 that we keep applying, and it could be the
8 sixth, seventh or eighth time someone --
9 SENATOR HOYLMAN: With my remaining --
10 thank you. With my remaining few seconds, is
11 that something you would commit to examining
12 from within, since you do have the data to
13 make these comparisons?
14 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Well,
15 Senator, that's probably a huge study,
16 number one.
17 Number two, the Board of Parole is
18 independent. And when we merged, the
19 Legislature wisely separated them out, and my
20 responsibility is to give them all the
21 support -- we have a wonderful partnership.
22 I give them access to all the records they
23 need. But their decision-making is
24 independent. And any type of study of the
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1 nature you're proposing I think would be
2 extremely labor-intensive.
3 I am completely confident that with
4 their diversity, they are making the
5 decisions on the merits, they are completely
6 color-blind.
7 SENATOR HOYLMAN: With all due
8 respect, I don't think you can question
9 outside analyses and then say this is beyond
10 our ability to double-check the numbers,
11 given the importance of the issue at hand,
12 racial disparities in the, you know, release
13 of incarcerated individuals.
14 I'd urge you to think about that, sir.
15 Thank you.
16 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Thank
17 you, Senator.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
19 We're going to go to Assemblyman
20 Burgos.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN BURGOS: Thank you,
22 Madam Chair.
23 Thank you, Commissioner, for being
24 here today.
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1 I think the State Comptroller released
2 reports that one in four incarcerated folks
3 are older New Yorkers. He even went as far
4 as making the suggestion that policymakers
5 should be decreasing the prison population,
6 especially for older New Yorkers, because
7 they pose much less risk to our society.
8 I wanted to ask you, are you in
9 agreement with the State Comptroller on this?
10 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Well, I
11 don't like to comment on potential
12 legislative matters, and I know it's the
13 subject of a lot of legislative bills out
14 there that want to look at the issue.
15 Generally speaking, people tend to age
16 out of the criminogenic behaviors as they get
17 older. But you also have to look at how they
18 came to prison. Are we talking about
19 somebody that's been in prison a long time,
20 or are we talking about somebody that at
21 age 50 was a child molester? And that's a
22 whole different paradigm altogether.
23 I can tell you that sometimes when we
24 release somebody to a nursing home -- it took
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1 us a long time to find a nursing home for a
2 sex offender, then he managed to abuse one of
3 the patients there and it really blew up in
4 our face. So it's a complicated issue.
5 There's no question the older
6 population requires a lot more attention.
7 I'm trying to deliver to them meaningful
8 programs. We have a senior dorm at one
9 facility for 50 and older where we've
10 selected programs that are just right for
11 them for wellness, for engagement and a
12 number of other things. If somebody requires
13 skilled nursing care, they're placed in
14 regional medical units. But --
15 ASSEMBLYMAN BURGOS: And I have a --
16 I'm sorry, just because I have a question
17 that I think you were kind of diving into, so
18 I wanted to take it in that direction.
19 In the same report the Comptroller
20 reported that older adults, it costs nearly a
21 quarter million dollars more to incarcerate
22 them. So I think you were kind of alluding
23 to that. Can you explain why it does cost so
24 much more to incarcerate an older adult?
369
1 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Well, in
2 general they have a lot more health problems
3 at that age. Once you get to be a senior
4 citizen in a correctional facility, your
5 conditions, whether it's diabetes or you
6 require, you know, heart treatments or you
7 may be HIV-positive, you may have
8 hepatitis C -- the treatment for that is
9 rather expensive -- whatever your medical
10 problems are, like all of us, as we get older
11 they seem to come to the forefront.
12 And if you have a background where
13 you've neglected your health a little bit or
14 you've also taken drugs or you've smoked or
15 you've abused alcohol and you haven't
16 exercised and you've eaten poorly, those
17 problems will manifest themselves in
18 compromised health conditions as you get
19 older.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN BURGOS: Okay, thank you.
21 One last question. I've had
22 difficulty getting a pretty clear and concise
23 answer on this. I guess it can vary
24 sometimes. But I'm really focused on the
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1 reentry, right, when individuals are released
2 from these prisons. And I wanted to know
3 what is the DOCCS policy for individuals that
4 are set to be released? How exactly are we
5 releasing individuals? What are we giving
6 them on the day of release, and how are we
7 setting them on a path, you know, to a
8 fruitful life?
9 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: It's
10 going to require a little bit of a detailed
11 answer. There's a lot that we do with
12 reentry. In fact, that was a big reason why
13 we merged, so that we can have a smooth
14 hand-off to community supervision when the
15 people are being released from our
16 correctional facilities.
17 We have transitional accounting plans
18 and Phase 3 is when we really focus on the
19 individual who's leaving prisons. One of the
20 Governor's priorities is to make sure that we
21 facilitate the process of giving them
22 identification so that when they leave, they
23 have the birth certificate in hand, they have
24 their Social Security card -- I'm trying to
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1 advance the date when we can apply for that
2 from four months to six months. We're
3 working with DMV to expand a pilot. We're
4 making them connections in the community. We
5 have reentry managers that we hand off to.
6 We're going to focus significantly on
7 job retention, so we train our parole
8 officers to get them actively engaged in
9 employment, because ultimately it has to be a
10 smooth transition. We want them to succeed
11 when they reenter society.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN BURGOS: I appreciate your
13 time, Commissioner. Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
15 To the Senate.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
17 Our next questioner is Senator Savino.
18 Senator Savino, are you there? I see
19 you, but you're not listening to us. Hi, can
20 you unmute? Senator Savino. Apparently not.
21 Senator Savino, can you hear me?
22 SENATOR SAVINO: Yeah, but I wrote in
23 the chat to let Senator Akshar go first
24 because I'm doing something. I'll come back.
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1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, I didn't see
2 that, I'm sorry.
3 Okay, we're going to go to Senator
4 Akshar first, thank you.
5 SENATOR AKSHAR: Madam Chairwoman,
6 thank you. Senator Savino, thank you as
7 well.
8 Commissioner, good to be with you.
9 I want to just turn your attention to
10 HALT, obviously a piece of legislation that
11 had been dated -- excuse me, debated for
12 nearly a decade. We know now that there's no
13 longer debate, it is now law. I've been here
14 for seven years, and you have consistently
15 stated that you cannot, nor will you, opine
16 publicly on pending pieces of legislation.
17 I'm curious to know, now that this
18 piece of legislation has been enacted, do you
19 believe that the HALT Act will make the
20 prison system safer or more dangerous for
21 both the incarcerated and those that are
22 charged with their care and custody?
23 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Sure.
24 First let me say when I don't comment on
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1 pending legislation, I'm not trying to be
2 obstructionist. I always try to take --
3 whatever the Legislature inquires about, I
4 try to be responsive to your questions. But
5 there's a forum to discuss pending
6 legislation, and it's not a public forum.
7 There may be issues, so we communicate our
8 questions to the Governor's counsel's office
9 and let them --
10 SENATOR AKSHAR: Let me just publicly
11 say I meant no disrespect by that.
12 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Sure.
13 Sure.
14 So HALT is now the law. And I will be
15 honest, when it was first passed I had some
16 concerns. But I can tell you that we have
17 marshaled tremendous resources in order for
18 us to implement this law as the Legislature
19 intended.
20 I created an executive steering
21 committee, and then I created four
22 subcommittees, and they have worked extremely
23 hard to structure an elaborate program to go
24 forward to implement it, from infrastructure
374
1 to changing our disciplinary guidelines to
2 developing programming for the individuals
3 when they come out of their SHUs and their
4 RRUs and also for movement of incarcerated
5 individuals from the SHUs to the RRUs.
6 So it was a very labor-intensive
7 process. I am very comfortable where we are
8 that we'll hit the ground running. I believe
9 that we will change behavior for the better,
10 especially when I heard the program
11 presentation. We're not just providing them
12 out-of-cell time. Other systems will provide
13 out-of-cell time, let them play cards. We
14 are really trying to focus on the behavior
15 that got them into segregated confinement to
16 begin with. And I'm confident that we'll be
17 able to make some changes that ultimately
18 they'll reintegrate into general confinement
19 and not return. Or -- oh --
20 SENATOR AKSHAR: So do you -- I'm
21 sorry, Commissioner. Do you feel comfortable
22 with its full implementation in the timeline
23 that's been prescribed?
24 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: It is an
375
1 aggressive timeline. But at this point, I
2 am. We worked very, very hard coordinating
3 with a lot of different forces within our
4 agency, coordinating with OGS to do all the
5 infrastructure changes, doing the training
6 for the hearing officers, the memos that went
7 out to the field. I feel very confident --
8 it certainly didn't hurt that the population
9 also continued to decline as well. So that
10 has kind of been the wind at our back
11 somewhat.
12 But we're confident that we can
13 deliver this. I have a breakdown of every
14 facility where the RRUs are taking place,
15 when they'll be ready, and I'm confident
16 we'll hit the ground running.
17 SENATOR AKSHAR: Commissioner, with
18 respect, with this looming threat of
19 savagery, as you author in your letter -- I
20 mean, how can you be so confident that, you
21 know, its full implementation will in fact
22 occur, with all of the violence that we've
23 seen? Do you feel like you're being -- a
24 tool is being taken away from you?
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1 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: No.
2 Because at the end of the day, our ability to
3 separate is still intact. The theme going
4 forward is separation, not isolation.
5 So we'll continue to separate the
6 troublemakers, and we even put a memo out to
7 the population, who may have been under the
8 impression that they can do some act, go into
9 SHU for 15 days, and they'd be back into
10 general population. If that's what they're
11 thinking, they're sadly mistaken, and that's
12 not going to be the case.
13 They'll get out-of-cell structured
14 programming and treatment, but my number-one
15 priority is when we do this, we're going to
16 keep everybody safe. Other incarcerated
17 individuals, staff, volunteers, whomever,
18 everybody will remain safe. That's my
19 number-one priority.
20 SENATOR AKSHAR: Commissioner, why
21 hasn't the department reimplemented the
22 Secure Vendor Program?
23 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: It is
24 something I still intend to pursue and to
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1 follow. I'm looking for feedback from my
2 task force on violence; that might give me
3 some recommendations on that.
4 We learned the last time; we've talked
5 to the advocates. We think it's valuable.
6 We think it will save lives if it ultimately
7 keeps dangerous drugs like fentanyl out of
8 the system and ultimately be safer for
9 everybody.
10 It's a question of timing. I need to
11 be able to do this at a time when there is a
12 lot more steadiness to the system. We have
13 implemented so many programs in the last
14 year. We are still in a state of change with
15 closing facilities and new programs that are
16 coming online. So it's a question of when
17 the timing is appropriate, and I fully intend
18 to pursue that at the appropriate time.
19 SENATOR AKSHAR: I would just
20 respectfully --
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. I'm
22 sorry, I have to cut you off, Senator Akshar.
23 SENATOR AKSHAR: Thank you,
24 chairwoman. Thank you.
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1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You can follow up
2 with the commissioner later.
3 Assemblywoman Weinstein.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes, we go to
5 Assemblyman Palmesano.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Yes,
7 Commissioner, over the last two cycles we've
8 seen 10 prison closures, Willard and
9 Southport included, which I commented which
10 is a bad idea, given the programs they
11 provided, given the fact that none of these
12 facilities are getting any dollars for their
13 communities for repurposing, and given the
14 fact that the short-term 90-day prison
15 closures were disrespectful and an insult to
16 the correctional facilities.
17 What's used over and over again is a
18 decrease in prison population. But even as
19 the prison population has decreased, the
20 alarming results of assaults continue to
21 rise. I've said over and over again I
22 believe these closures, coupled with bad
23 policy, taking away and not providing tools
24 and resources for our correction officers and
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1 staff, is creating a dangerous powder-keg
2 environment.
3 We talked about restricting special
4 housing units and now HALT. There's no
5 discipline for these actions. Your letter
6 talked about savagery, but a letter's fine,
7 but that's not -- what are you going to do
8 about it? HALT I'll say is a disaster, it's
9 going to be a disaster and going to lead to
10 more violence inside our facilities.
11 Even your own numbers show you
12 inmate-on-staff assaults are up 55 percent
13 over the past six years, to an all-time high
14 of 1176 this past year. Yet at the same
15 time, Commissioner, drugs and contraband
16 continues to be a great problem in our
17 facilities -- 3500 last year and 4,000 each
18 year of the past four years.
19 But yet as we mentioned, we're still
20 here without a Secure Vendor Program. You
21 said the time needs to be right. The time
22 was right several years ago when it was
23 canceled. When we talk about drug dogs in
24 our correctional facilities, you always say
380
1 it's a budget issue. You know, TSA-type
2 screening devices to keep the -- we know the
3 drugs get in through the mail and through
4 visitation. Adequate staffing for our staff
5 so they can be safe and not have mandated
6 overtime.
7 You know, all the savings that are
8 supposed to be realized through closures, why
9 isn't any of it being reinvested back into
10 the communities to provide tools and
11 resources to keep them safe? We talk about
12 iPads and TAP and free college tuition, but
13 nothing seems to be going into the
14 facilities.
15 Commissioner, you're a career guy.
16 You know what's going on in these facilities
17 isn't working, and you know it's not safe.
18 You need to be speaking out. So why not the
19 Secure Vendor Program now? It was due
20 before. What are we doing about the
21 assaults? Are there any charges being
22 charged for individuals on the assaults since
23 your memo went out? What about drug dogs at
24 each facility? What about technology
381
1 screening devices like TSA-type that screen
2 individuals when they come in?
3 Aren't all these things going to be
4 helpful and make things better? If so, why
5 not advocate to the Governor and say we need
6 to do these things? Better staffing and, you
7 know, speaking out on all of this, I think.
8 So Secure Vendor, drug dogs,
9 technology screening devices, staffing
10 resources. What's going on with the assaults
11 as far as charges? Where do we stand?
12 because this is not safe and it's not fair to
13 these corrections officers who work a
14 dangerous job, Commissioner.
15 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: So first
16 of all, Assemblyman, we have invested
17 significantly in K-9 teams. We are
18 significantly expanding them. I think the
19 number is going to be, when all is said and
20 done, about 28.
21 So we have our own school, we've
22 been -- we've had our people certified by
23 DCJS, and we keep the dogs fresh. And
24 they've been doing a tremendous job
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1 uncovering contraband and leading to the
2 arrests of many individuals. There are
3 serious consequences for bringing in
4 contraband.
5 With respect to closures, I can tell
6 you that the Governor has created or will be
7 creating a new commission that's going to
8 have private as well as public officials, ESD
9 leading the charge so that we can find a use
10 for these facilities consistent with the job
11 needs of New York State and what all the
12 different possibilities are. So we're paying
13 a lot of attention to that.
14 The task force, I look forward to its
15 first meeting and hearing feedback, whatever
16 the recommendations are. We're continuing to
17 look at technology, all the different devices
18 that are out there. We're continuing to
19 experiment -- from Cellsense to cameras to
20 you name it, we've invested millions into our
21 facilities. The body cameras and the fixed
22 cameras alone, they show what's happened. So
23 if someone is assaulting somebody and we have
24 it on film, then the district attorney can
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1 easily bring a prosecution based on that
2 evidence.
3 So there's a lot that we're doing.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Has there been
5 any increase in the --
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
7 (Inaudible overtalk.)
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We're going to
9 go to the Senate, but I just want to remind
10 members to -- and Senators -- to leave enough
11 time for the answers in the time.
12 So Senate?
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
14 much, Assemblymember.
15 Now Senator Diane Savino.
16 SENATOR SAVINO: Thank you, Senator
17 Krueger.
18 Good to see you again, Commissioner.
19 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Good to
20 see you, Senator.
21 SENATOR SAVINO: We've been doing this
22 dance so many years. At least I'm not
23 yelling at you about overtime this time.
24 A lot of the questions I had have been
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1 addressed by other members, so I'm not going
2 to belabor the point. I do want to go to the
3 issue of the $45 million that's going to be
4 utilized to support the implementation of
5 HALT -- which I supported. But I'm curious
6 as to -- I heard you describe to I think
7 Senator Akshar and others how a lot of time
8 and effort has gone into how you're going to
9 implement it and the training, et cetera.
10 That has always a concern of mine, how do we
11 train the staff.
12 So I just -- I'm curious, were they --
13 did they participate in the development of
14 the training that's going to be used when
15 HALT goes into effect? That's the first
16 question. Because as you pointed out, inmate
17 assaults against other inmates and against
18 COs is -- in very limited areas are very
19 high, and they are very violent, and so
20 there's a real concern there that they're
21 prepared to deal with this. So that's one
22 question.
23 And then the second thing is we're all
24 focused on some of the challenges we're
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1 seeing in the city with respect to the
2 mentally ill, some of whom have been released
3 from prisons to their own communities with no
4 support services. One of the criticisms of
5 Kendra's Law, among many, is that there's a
6 loophole in it that does not require DOCCS to
7 notify local mental health providers when a
8 prisoner or inmate who has been receiving
9 mental health services while they were
10 incarcerated -- to notify local mental health
11 providers in their home community that
12 they're being released so they can, if
13 necessary, be connected with a local mental
14 health provider or be evaluated to determine
15 whether they have a propensity for violence.
16 Is there a possibility that, absent a
17 change in the statute, do you think this is
18 something that DOCCS can do? Because people
19 are being released, sent without -- with no
20 resources -- I see in your budget the
21 Governor is putting aside $2.5 million to
22 support transitional housing for people who
23 are released with no resources. But this
24 seems to be, you know, a glaring loophole
386
1 that perhaps absent a change in the statute,
2 it could just be a change in policy to
3 connect people at their home base with the
4 necessary services that they need.
5 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Okay,
6 Senator, so addressing that question first,
7 there is a statute that does require us to
8 provide notice to law enforcement whenever
9 anybody's getting released, every single --
10 SENATOR SAVINO: Law enforcement, but
11 not mental health services. That's
12 different.
13 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Right,
14 you're right. Not mental health.
15 But there is a unit that we work with
16 directly with OMH for anybody that is
17 diagnosed as seriously mentally ill. We work
18 together four months prior to their potential
19 release to line up potential resources in the
20 community for them so that there is a smooth
21 hand-off. Which includes, by the way, us
22 doing a direct transport to ensure that the
23 individual arrives at the destination. We
24 don't want to just release them and send them
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1 on their way to public transportation.
2 Sometimes that's to a residential
3 program, sometimes it's directly to community
4 supervision, so that there's a hand-off.
5 A lot of times with some of these
6 individuals after they're out there, if they
7 abscond, if they stop taking their
8 medication, there's a problem. So it's not
9 one that's amenable to an easy solution.
10 I know that they are protected under
11 HIPAA. There's limited information we can
12 give right now, under current law, about
13 somebody's mental health status. I don't
14 know if, you know, that would help public
15 safety if they were giving that information
16 to law enforcement.
17 I think, you know, we have to continue
18 to make sure we coordinate our services.
19 We're working with OMH. We make sure that
20 they get their Medicaid card, they have that
21 available so that they can continue -- we
22 give them a 30-day supply of their
23 psychotropic medications, if they're on that,
24 when they leave, and they have to continue to
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1 take it when they're in the community.
2 So there's a lot of different forces
3 at play when these terrible events happen.
4 They just shock everybody's conscience.
5 Back to your training question,
6 there's a lot of training that's going to go
7 out there, especially for hearing officers.
8 Most of this is going to come from our
9 central office. I'm going to record a
10 message in, you know, a few days as part of
11 that training. It is an all-encompassing
12 effort. A lot has to be done. And certainly
13 we want to listen. It's an ongoing process,
14 listening to the feedback from the rank and
15 file as we roll this out.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
17 SENATOR SAVINO: My time is up.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sorry, we do have
19 to cut you off, Senator Savino.
20 Assemblywoman Weinstein.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes, we're
22 going to go to Assemblyman Epstein now.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you,
24 Chair.
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1 And thank you, Commissioner, for being
2 with us today.
3 So I note that the average death of
4 folks behind the wall based on natural causes
5 is between 56 and 59 years old. I'm
6 wondering how you define natural causes for
7 such an -- and how do you -- I mean, it's
8 such a low death average compared to what we
9 see out in the general public.
10 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Well,
11 natural causes is something that's basically
12 a health services determination. It is not,
13 you know, an operations determination.
14 And every single individual has to
15 have an autopsy performed, and that will tell
16 us what the cause of death is. When death
17 happens, that generates what's called an
18 unusual incident report, where we have to put
19 down what seems to be a cause of death, which
20 can change once we get the ultimate autopsy
21 report.
22 It also might be listed initially as
23 "unknown," because we simply -- if we find
24 somebody who's dead, unfortunately deceased
390
1 in their cell, we have no idea if it's
2 natural causes, we have no idea if it's a
3 drug overdose or anything else. We also will
4 have BCI come in and do an investigation.
5 But you're right about the average age
6 of death for natural causes. It's the same
7 as basically in the general public. If the
8 health services, if the medical examiner
9 tells us natural causes and he writes it up
10 for arterial sclerosis or brain tumor or
11 cancer or whatever the cause of death may be,
12 that's what we go by.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: I would just
14 hope that we could explore that a little
15 more, because it just seems, you know, much
16 lower than the general public and I believe
17 there's something we should be doing about
18 that.
19 I want to focus on, you know, access
20 to phone calls. I know inmates, folks behind
21 the walls are -- you know, really need to
22 stay connected to their family and their
23 community. And this is an issue that keeps
24 coming up when we hear from advocates. And
391
1 I'm wondering, you know, like expanding
2 opportunities for free phone calls -- you
3 know, I know there were free phone calls
4 that's been available during the pandemic --
5 and looking at extending that. And what's
6 your view on giving them access to more free
7 phone calls to stay connected to their
8 community?
9 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Well,
10 let me say I support generally, you know, the
11 practical means to connect incarcerated
12 individuals with their families. That's why
13 I continue to have a family reunion program
14 so that they can have an intimate visit and
15 be a family again, and I put a lot of time
16 and effort into upgrading them so they look
17 like family environments.
18 Staying connected to family is
19 critical. We have among the lowest phone
20 rates right now because by statute we are not
21 allowed to take any commissions. Other
22 jurisdictions, around the state and local,
23 they use commissions from phone calls and
24 they'll apply it to subsidize their
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1 operations. We do not do any of that at all.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: So,
3 Commissioner, I'm almost out of time. I'd
4 love to, you know, talk to you more about
5 that.
6 And I just have one last question,
7 because I do think free phone calls is
8 important. I'm wondering if there's any
9 formerly incarcerated people on the Parole
10 Board right now. And what's your thought
11 about having a formerly incarcerated person
12 on the board?
13 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I don't
14 believe anyone who's formerly incarcerated is
15 on the board.
16 I won't speak for the board, but I'll
17 tell you that we hire a lot of formerly
18 incarcerated, they're volunteers in our
19 system. I think they're the most credible
20 people to deliver messages about what their
21 experience has been and get other people to
22 turn their lives around. So I strongly
23 support hiring formerly incarcerated
24 individuals.
393
1 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you,
2 Chair. Thank you, Commissioner.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
5 much.
6 We're actually up to me. Thank you,
7 Commissioner.
8 So following up I believe on Senator
9 Savino's last point, a real concern to me --
10 even though I am very pleased that the
11 agencies have been merged with the intent of
12 far more focus on what happens when people
13 are released from prison and go back to
14 community and the importance of rethinking
15 all of that -- I am still not clear even who
16 is eligible, say, for these housing services.
17 I am very worried that when we release
18 elderly prisoners and/or mentally ill
19 prisoners to New York City, we are releasing
20 them to the streets right in front of the
21 Bellevue Men's Shelter, and then no one ever
22 knows what happened other than I'm pretty
23 sure it's a less humane model than whatever
24 was happening in our prisons.
394
1 And so I feel that it is imperative
2 that there be a mechanism to ensure not just
3 notification of criminal justice people -- I
4 mean, with all due respect to NYPD, they're
5 not going to go out there and get mental care
6 health services or housing or senior services
7 for returning prisoners -- that we need a
8 very specific construct of how people are
9 going to be coming back to the city and being
10 placed in a residential site that actually
11 can deal with their needs.
12 So I'm particularly, again, concerned
13 about seniors and about people with mental
14 health issues. And I'm curious, do we have
15 any pilots that we know anything about that
16 are working or not, or are we -- are we
17 changing the policy that -- I think the last
18 time I checked, you were releasing about
19 2,000 people from buses to the entrance of
20 the men's shelters in my city and my
21 district.
22 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Okay,
23 Senator, let me take it one step at a time.
24 First of all, the Governor's new
395
1 initiative is a bold new initiative with a
2 residential treatment facility where
3 voluntarily, they'll be able to stay for
4 90 days. It will be without many of the
5 restrictions that we usually have with a
6 correctional facility. They'll be able to
7 have cellphones, they'll come and go.
8 And then that -- the purpose of that
9 is so that they're otherwise homeless, they
10 can have the right to stay at Edgecombe for
11 up to 90 days. And to help them gain houses,
12 we're going to pay a stipend to the head of
13 the household that agrees to take them for
14 12 weeks, $100. So -- and if that works like
15 we think it might work to help people get a
16 toehold, we think we'll start to move the
17 needle with respect to homelessness.
18 I think the average stay, for those
19 arriving at Bellevue now, is I think 37 days.
20 So they end starting there, many of them, but
21 then they are -- they do end up finding
22 housing after that.
23 So you're right, this is a big
24 challenge. I mean, we are not in the
396
1 business of finding, you know, housing for
2 people that are otherwise homeless. We do
3 provide notifications, under the law, like
4 we're required, to all social service
5 districts when someone who appears to require
6 homeless housing is going to be released to
7 that jurisdiction.
8 So we do that throughout the state.
9 It is a challenge, and I think this is one
10 initiative that will help.
11 There's many programs out there that
12 are coming online. Right now, if you call --
13 Fulton Correctional Facility was given to the
14 Osborne Association. That is almost ready,
15 from my understanding, to start accepting
16 people from DOCCS who might otherwise be
17 homeless. There are all kinds of
18 not-for-profits, especially that deal with
19 releasing elderly individuals that may have
20 lost their connections to families.
21 I know one initiative that's out there
22 in the Ossining area where Hudson Link, the
23 executive director has purchased housing,
24 he's rehabbed them, and he's allowing them to
397
1 be used for otherwise people that have no
2 place to go when they're released from
3 Sing Sing.
4 So there's a well of goodwill out
5 there with a lot of not-for-profits and
6 people that want to help returning citizens
7 get homes, get adjusted. And I can help that
8 in one way by maintaining the family
9 connections while they're still with us.
10 There's a lot that can be done there, a lot
11 that is being done to reestablish family
12 connections while they're with us. So it's a
13 multifaceted approach to a very complex
14 problem.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And you described
16 a stipend for this new program beyond the
17 90 days. So that's $100 a week that you're
18 offering?
19 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Yes. To
20 the head of the -- if they find -- if they
21 can find someone that can say, look, my
22 brother-in-law will take me in and he'll let
23 me live with him, finances are tight, but
24 he'll let me in if you agree to pay him $100
398
1 a week for the 12 weeks.
2 So we hope that that's enough to give
3 them a toehold, get them on their feet, get a
4 job and then either stay there or find
5 permanent housing after that.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And do you have
7 any data that shows that elderly people and
8 mentally ill people coming out of prisons
9 have any success with getting employment?
10 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I know
11 that a lot of the not-for-profits do work
12 with them and they're able at some point to
13 get employment, but it's a big adjustment for
14 somebody that's been incarcerated for many,
15 many years. It's a complex problem.
16 I don't have any statistics on who
17 gets employed, who doesn't. I mean, the
18 number-one concern is immediate housing,
19 where they're going to live as soon as
20 they're released from the correctional
21 facility. And employment is right on its
22 heels as well. Coupled with sobriety
23 thereafter.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. And you're
399
1 not going to be using halfway houses as the
2 model? Which I don't think have been very
3 successful.
4 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: There
5 are people that can avail themselves of
6 halfway houses. There's a lot of resources
7 out there.
8 But this is going to be different.
9 This is going to be not unlike a halfway
10 house, but it's going to have structure.
11 There's going -- you're going to have to
12 agree to abide by certain conditions. And
13 the punishment is if you don't, then you
14 can't participate anymore. You're going to
15 have to, you know, go elsewhere. Most people
16 probably don't want to go to a homeless
17 shelter if they can avoid it.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: That is
19 absolutely true.
20 And again, my particular focus here is
21 the discussion around the most vulnerable
22 people leaving prisons, which I do believe
23 are the elderly and the mentally ill, and
24 they are the least likely to have had an
400
1 ongoing relationship with family, you know,
2 either because they've been in the prison
3 system so long or because they, with mental
4 illness, had burned bridges with their family
5 even before they went to prison.
6 So I'm particularly interested in
7 seeing what we can do that are models that
8 actually work for these populations. Because
9 I know everyone in the world is calling for
10 us to, you know, pass legislation that says
11 just release these people. And my
12 perspective is I certainly don't want anyone
13 to spend a day more in prison than they need
14 to. But I also feel very strongly that
15 releasing them to the streets of New York
16 City with no supports and no future is
17 actually a worse storyline than in many of
18 the situations they find themselves.
19 So I appreciate your response. I
20 congratulate you on becoming the actual
21 commissioner. I feel like my whole life
22 you've been the acting commissioner. I'm not
23 sure -- that's not really true, but I feel
24 like that.
401
1 And I'm going to not use my last two
2 minutes and pass it back to Chair Weinstein.
3 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Thank
4 you, Senator.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
6 We'll go to Assemblyman Burdick.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you.
8 And Senator Krueger, you touched upon
9 the very topic that I wanted to discuss as
10 well, and thank you for those questions.
11 And Commissioner Annucci, thank you
12 for your responses on it.
13 And I wish to first commend you for
14 embracing Clean Slate and other recent
15 reforms to ensure that they're implemented
16 well. And we do hope that the Governor will
17 be supporting further reforms such as Fair
18 and Timely and Elderly Parole.
19 And I noticed your reply to the
20 question about what constitutes elderly, and
21 I think you mentioned that there is no
22 definition, but generally thought of as 55 or
23 more. I share the Senator's views that we
24 need to be sure that there is sufficient
402
1 supports in the community for those who are
2 released.
3 And along those lines, and further to
4 the question about those that are released to
5 homeless shelters, I recall in the budget
6 hearings last year there was a question --
7 not mine, but whether you happened to know,
8 you know, what percentage or what number of
9 those that are released go to homeless
10 shelters. And I'm not looking for an answer
11 now, but if we could try to get that, that
12 would be helpful.
13 But my question actually goes to what
14 work DOCCS does in coordination with the
15 Division of Housing and Community Renewal,
16 which as I'm sure you're aware, the Governor
17 has provided a great deal of funds for
18 addressing homelessness.
19 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Off the
20 top of my head, Assemblyman, I'm going to
21 have to check on that.
22 I do know that our reentry managers
23 are working very diligently with individuals
24 when they get released to find them housing.
403
1 And I'm sure that they have connections with
2 every entity that's out there that could
3 offer housing.
4 I know that we've worked with MOCJ,
5 which is the Mayor's Office of Criminal
6 Justice. They're making funding available
7 for us that will help with the placement of
8 those with serious mental illness as well as
9 other individuals that are homeless. There
10 is a lot more resources that are available in
11 the city versus in the rural areas of the
12 state, so we are taking advantage of that.
13 There are, you know, a lot of
14 not-for-profits that --
15 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you. And
16 I don't mean to interrupt, but I think that
17 it would be very helpful if there's more of a
18 connection directly with HCR on this. And
19 those community organizations are terrific
20 that you mentioned, and working with the
21 Mayor's programs I think are terrific too.
22 But I think this needs to be an
23 interagency approach. And it would be
24 terrific if something could be developed
404
1 there. This is something that became
2 apparent to me since I serve on both the
3 Housing Committee and Correction Committee,
4 and I would love to pursue that further with
5 you.
6 And my time is out, but if we could
7 try to set something up where I can discuss
8 it further with you, I would greatly
9 appreciate it.
10 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Happy to
11 do it, Assemblyman.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you so
13 much.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
16 much.
17 And now we have Senator O'Mara.
18 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you.
19 Good evening, Commissioner. It's a
20 long day. You're No. 5 on a list of 30-some.
21 So thanks for your time; thanks for being
22 with us.
23 I had a couple of questions on the
24 prison closures that came about this year.
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1 In prior years there has been local economic
2 development money attached to the prisons
3 that have been closed. Can you outline for
4 me what's being put in place for these
5 localities for the prisons that are slated to
6 be closed this year?
7 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: The
8 prior appropriation has been reappropriated
9 for this year, so that money will be
10 available going forward. That's my
11 understanding.
12 SENATOR O'MARA: And how much is that?
13 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I don't
14 know off the top of my head, but I'll get
15 that for you, Senator.
16 SENATOR O'MARA: Okay. And in regards
17 to the prior prison closures over the last
18 decade or so, how many of those facilities
19 have been reused, repurposed for something
20 else? And how much of that local economic
21 development money for those facilities was
22 used, and how much remains for those?
23 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I know
24 that of the closures we've done -- including
406
1 these, will total 27 -- that six have been
2 either purchased or repurposed for public use
3 or local use or private use. One was turned
4 over for a not-for-profit in New York City,
5 Fulton, to the Osborne Association. The
6 Buffalo work release facility was converted
7 for use by us. And a number of others are
8 still potentially there for reuse.
9 Again, I will refocus on what the
10 Governor's initiative -- the proposal going
11 forward to create this commission to have a
12 lot of different perspectives, private
13 individuals who can bring to the table their
14 perspective of how to reuse a closed
15 correctional facility going forward, taking
16 into account the needs, what's best for the
17 community, what the job needs are for the
18 state.
19 SENATOR O'MARA: In regards to the
20 economic development money available, is that
21 money -- is there a certain amount for each
22 facility, or is there a lump sum to be used
23 across the state?
24 And do those dollars have to be used
407
1 on a site-specific economic development
2 project -- in other words, the actual
3 repurposing of the facility -- or can they go
4 to another economic development project in
5 the community?
6 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I
7 believe the entity to answer those specific
8 questions, Senator, is ESD. They would
9 control the money and the flow, and they can
10 answer your questions as to what is a
11 permissible use and would not be a
12 permissible use.
13 SENATOR O'MARA: Okay. I will follow
14 up with them. Thank you for that.
15 And if you could, you know, get me the
16 current dollars that are -- were appropriated
17 last year and will be reappropriated this
18 year for these current closures underway.
19 Another follow-up question in regards
20 to the free college for inmates. You know,
21 we've in recent years enacted the Excelsior
22 Scholarship Program for SUNY students with
23 some pretty rigorous requirements of
24 full-time attendance, certain GPA levels, or
408
1 you risk losing that free tuition and
2 actually have to pay that back.
3 Are there any of those types of
4 requirements being proposed with this free
5 college tuition for inmates at this point?
6 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Senator,
7 I think those details will have to be worked
8 out.
9 But the other thing I'll tell you is
10 this. The students that participate in
11 college behind the walls, they work very
12 hard. I just -- this is anecdotal, I just
13 got the notice from all the recent graduates
14 I think at Washington Correctional Facility.
15 And out of 21 graduates, something like 20
16 made the Dean's List, and one made the
17 President's List or something along those
18 lines.
19 They work very hard. They don't take
20 it for granted. They're not there to pass
21 the time away. They really want to get a
22 degree because they know what it means. And
23 the multiplier effect is very often members
24 of their family then follow suit and also are
409
1 incentivized to get their college degree as
2 well.
3 So those kinds of details are still
4 what consequences there would be for not
5 attending class or not following through. I
6 think those things can be worked out. And,
7 you know, they make sense.
8 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you,
9 Commissioner. Thanks for being here.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
11 Assembly.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes, we go to
13 Assemblyman Carroll.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: Thank you,
15 Chair Weinstein. And thank you,
16 Commissioner Annucci, for your testimony.
17 During this current administration,
18 only one incarcerated person -- who was
19 actually physically incarcerated -- has been
20 granted clemency. Of the thousands of people
21 who currently have requested clemency, do you
22 think that only one is worthy of clemency?
23 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I'm not
24 sure if your numbers are accurate.
410
1 I do know that clemency wisely, by the
2 Constitution of our state, is reserved to the
3 Governor for her to decide, or him to decide.
4 I know that since the start of the
5 pandemic, the population has decreased by
6 13,000-some-odd, many of them by the
7 Governor's direction to implement now the
8 spirit of Less is More. I can give you those
9 numbers; it's either 600 or 700 that have
10 been released from our correctional
11 facilities.
12 I know that we do have a --
13 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: But clemency
14 specifically, sir, I do believe that this
15 current Governor has only granted clemency to
16 one person who was actually physically
17 incarcerated. I think she has granted it to
18 10 people, but they otherwise were not in
19 custody when she granted that.
20 But the reason I ask you is not to say
21 if it was one or 10, but you have spoken
22 passionately previously about individuals who
23 are committing suicide behind bars and what
24 you've done to stop suicide rates in our
411
1 jails. And my question really is as our jail
2 population ages -- now one-quarter of our
3 jail population is considered elderly --
4 don't we think that we are going to see more
5 suicides, we are going to see more extreme
6 outcomes if we do not figure out a way to
7 make sure that more people who are aging in
8 prison are released?
9 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I can
10 tell you that my big focus is to give every
11 individual in my system a reason to hope.
12 And hope is something that can come in many
13 ways.
14 Now, this Governor had to take the
15 reins of state government at a quick time,
16 she had to wrestle with the State of the
17 State, the budget, appointments, a number of
18 things. At some point she will probably have
19 more time to devote to clemency. I'm not
20 going to speak to her --
21 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: Commissioner --
22 Commissioner, I believe you believe in hope,
23 and I'm sure you believe in grace. But if
24 somebody is facing down an indeterminate
412
1 sentence or a sentence that is so long it
2 might as well be indeterminate, why should
3 they have hope? Why wouldn't they start to
4 believe that they have no hope and that the
5 policy of the State of New York is for them
6 to die behind bars, and thus why not make it
7 quicker and kill themselves?
8 Aren't we going to see more people
9 kill themselves if we keep having
10 indeterminate sentences where there is no
11 hope?
12 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Senator
13 {sic}, I can only say that people that have
14 long sentences, when I meet and speak with
15 them, a lot of them have turned their lives
16 around, a lot of them believe in giving
17 something back to society, and they find
18 purpose where they are.
19 Whether or not they will someday have
20 the ability to get out and that's what
21 they're hoping for, that is a personal,
22 individual decision for them.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: Thank you,
24 Commissioner.
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1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
2 I think our final Senator is Senator
3 Salazar, who's the chair, and she gets a
4 three-minute follow-up question or questions,
5 plural.
6 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you, Chair.
7 I just want to quickly note, because
8 Assemblyman Walczyk asked about it, all DOCCS
9 staff actually are eligible for tuition
10 reimbursement, but it's administered through
11 GOER rather than through DOCCS.
12 I wanted to ask you, Commissioner,
13 about the work release program. My
14 understanding is that currently individuals
15 at maximum-security facilities are
16 categorically excluded from eligibility for
17 work release. Is that correct?
18 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Well,
19 you have to be eligible under the rules and
20 regulations. There's nothing that says you
21 can't apply for work release if you are
22 confined in a maximum-security prison.
23 There are very detailed regulations.
24 You have to be within two years of your
414
1 earliest release date. So if you're still in
2 a max, you're probably not within two years
3 of your earliest release, or you're there
4 because of some complicated reason like your
5 mental health or medical reasons.
6 The statutes are extremely complex
7 that deal with work release, and there are
8 crimes of restriction that are involved. And
9 at some point maybe before I die or -- I'll
10 try and straighten out those statutes and
11 make them a little more understandable.
12 But for example, if you're convicted
13 of any homicide offense, you're ineligible
14 for work release. And maybe that needs to be
15 reexamined. Sex offenders, for good reason,
16 are barred as well, and other types.
17 But work release is a very important
18 program. It is a way of transitioning back
19 into society where you're given some degree
20 of liberty. You, to participate, are
21 transferred to a facility designated as a
22 work release facility, and then you gradually
23 furlough and get an approved residence and
24 reintegrate with your family and earn real
415
1 money like John Q. Public does as well, and
2 pay taxes.
3 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you. Yeah, I
4 agree with you, it's a very good program, and
5 would also like to see eligibility expanded
6 to include people even if they have been
7 convicted of certain crimes that currently
8 render them ineligible.
9 Wanted to ask quickly about the
10 Executive proposal to waive fees for
11 non-driver IDs for formerly incarcerated
12 people. Under the current law, when do
13 incarcerated individuals apply for a
14 non-driver ID? Can they begin the process
15 while they're incarcerated, for example, or
16 is it only after?
17 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: We
18 intend to allow that to happen under the
19 pilot that we're going to work on with DMV.
20 Right now what we do have is a program
21 that's operated out of a community
22 supervision in New York that is funded by
23 outside money where they can get their
24 non-driver ID when they report there. So --
416
1 and that's for parolees in the entire five
2 boroughs. And they have the physical
3 machinery there at the office, so we make it
4 easier for them to apply.
5 Now, what we're going to do -- and we
6 have to work out the details, and we're
7 currently in intensive discussions with DMV,
8 an excellent partner on this -- we're going
9 to pilot it at least at a couple of sites.
10 There's a lot of logistics that have to be
11 worked out, and what equipment is needed and
12 technology, et cetera. But the idea is to
13 give them, for this pilot, non-driver ID when
14 they leave the correctional facility.
15 So if that works the way we think it
16 can -- and there's a lot of details that
17 we'll work out, but we're working together,
18 it's an excellent partnership --- it will
19 give us a leg up on that.
20 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you.
21 Appreciate it.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
23 I am now playing Chair Weinstein for a
24 little while. The next Assemblymember is
417
1 Linda Rosenthal.
2 There you are. There you are, yes.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Yes. Thank
4 you, Senator.
5 Hello, Mr. Commissioner. I have a
6 couple of questions for you. DOCCS has
7 suspended programs and limited visits because
8 of COVID-19. Is the COVID release policy
9 still in place?
10 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: The
11 COVID release policy?
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Yeah.
13 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: We have
14 not had to do that recently. So -- but we
15 are implementing the Less is More, we're
16 still continuing to do that and release
17 people that are under -- the spirit of
18 Less is More. Totally, I think it's about
19 573 that have been released.
20 Right now we are on program pause. We
21 reevaluate that every two weeks because of
22 the recent spike. But I'm hopeful of
23 reinstating that in the not-too-distant
24 future.
418
1 But visits are not suspended, by the
2 way. We're still allowing visits. A visitor
3 comes, they get the test, if it's negative,
4 then they can visit with their loved one.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: So the move
6 from delta to omicron, how has that affected
7 this policy?
8 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Because
9 of the spike in numbers, we basically just
10 look at who's positive. And it causes us
11 to -- when we're seeing the spike, and it
12 happened pretty significantly. We think
13 we're on the downswing now.
14 But we've decided, in the best
15 interests of everybody, just put a program
16 pause on so that that is on hold -- and it's
17 been on since December of whatever date, not
18 too terribly long. And we're watching the
19 numbers, and I'm hopeful of reinstating that
20 in a couple of weeks.
21 But still delivering program related
22 things with our outside colleges, through the
23 tablets and other means of getting them the
24 materials they need. And then hopefully
419
1 bringing the volunteers back as well.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: So what
3 determinants -- do you have like a list of
4 determinants that will guide you in terms of
5 when you --
6 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: We look
7 at the raw number of positives at every
8 correctional facility, we look at the number
9 of staff that are out, we look at who's
10 positive, pending tests, who's quarantined,
11 who is in an outside hospital. There's no
12 magic number, but it's just when we sit
13 down we'll meet with our deputy commissioner
14 and chief medical officer, who works hand in
15 glove with DOH. And when there's a consensus
16 that we may need to do this now to stay ahead
17 of it before it overwhelms things, we act it.
18 We want to avoid what happened in
19 2020, and we're pushing as many things as we
20 can. We just now crossed 53 percent for the
21 number of population that have been
22 vaccinated. It's a lot of cajoling and
23 incentivizing that we're trying to do. I
24 wish I could get that number up higher, but
420
1 we'll continue to show them educational
2 materials and anything else that can get them
3 to change their mind and accept the vaccine.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Is it that
6 many people who don't want a vaccine, or for
7 what reasons?
8 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: People
9 make their own decisions. Just like people
10 in the outside world, they'll decide that
11 they want the vaccine or don't want the
12 vaccine.
13 We've made the vaccine available going
14 way back, and we keep making it available.
15 And the best we can do is just keep giving
16 them the educational materials, but you can't
17 compel someone to accept the vaccination if
18 they don't want one.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Okay, thank
21 you.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I have to cut you
23 off, Assemblywoman. Thank you.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Thank you.
421
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
2 Next is Assemblymember Ra, who's the
3 ranker and gets five minutes.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you, Chair.
5 Commissioner, thanks for being with us
6 again.
7 So just a couple of questions relative
8 to the staff there. And, you know, a lot of
9 people have brought up the situation. And
10 I'm sure you're familiar that last fall
11 Governor Hochul made an agreement for
12 two-and-a-half-times overtime for nurses and
13 other healthcare professionals, which I
14 believe includes healthcare workers that work
15 in DOCCS facilities.
16 Do you think that perhaps the
17 corrections officers should get a similar
18 overtime rate?
19 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I could
20 tell you, Assemblyman, that that's an issue
21 that we're looking at. I've received an
22 official letter from the president of the
23 union.
24 Our initial approach was to be very
422
1 surgical and try to deal with those positions
2 that really were -- we were losing to other
3 agencies. So it was an immediate response to
4 put us on par with other agencies and not
5 have our nurses -- and we already have very
6 high vacancy rates with our nurses and
7 similar healthcare titles leaving. So this
8 was an immediate surgical step.
9 From Day 1, both myself as well as the
10 Governor has recognized that our staff, all
11 of our staff who have come to work in our
12 correctional facilities during COVID are
13 heroes and heroines, and they deserve our
14 appreciation. And she has come to our medals
15 event, and she personally conveyed the
16 appreciation to the entire audience, which
17 was a cross-section of superintendents and
18 representatives of the union and medal
19 recipients as well.
20 So I'll tell you that it's something
21 we're studying right now. There's a big
22 fiscal to it, a huge fiscal to that. I'm not
23 sure if we can balance that. But I
24 understand why the request was made, and
423
1 we'll give it careful consideration.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Sure. And I -- you
3 know, well, fiscal things are what we're here
4 to talk about today, so just wanted to get
5 your thoughts on that.
6 A few different -- you know, of my
7 colleagues have talked about violence.
8 Obviously there's been a huge uptick. You
9 did talk about, you know, the relationship
10 with the DAs. Do you have any data you can
11 share in terms of how many cases the last
12 couple of years have been referred to DAs for
13 criminal charges for inmate-on-inmate or
14 inmate-on-staff violence?
15 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: I don't
16 have that number at my fingertips, but it's
17 something I believe we do track and I'll see
18 if I can get that for you.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you, yeah. And
20 likewise, if you could, you know, any that
21 have resulted in convictions with, you know,
22 additional concurrent or consecutive
23 sentences.
24 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Sure.
424
1 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Great. And then, you
2 know, really along the same lines, I know you
3 mentioned -- you know, I and the rest of the
4 Legislature I think are well aware of this,
5 that there are tons and tons of programs that
6 you have been -- initiatives that you've been
7 asked to implement after the last few years.
8 And my colleagues from the Senate have talked
9 a little bit about HALT.
10 And, you know, when we look at the
11 fact that over the last few years the inmate
12 population, you know, is half yet, you know,
13 I saw a chart, and it's almost like the
14 violence is going up, you know, in the
15 opposite direction of the number of inmates,
16 which is very alarming.
17 So, I mean, do you think that
18 implementing something like HALT while the
19 situation seems to be the way it is in the
20 facilities is a problem? Is it something
21 that perhaps needs to be looked at to slow
22 the implementation of that?
23 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Well,
24 first let me say one of the potential drivers
425
1 of what we're seeing is how the percentage of
2 the population, the numbers that are
3 convicted of violent felony offenses, it's
4 about 76 percent. So the reduction in the
5 population has been disproportionately
6 nonviolent. It wasn't that long ago it was
7 at 66 percent; now it's 76 percent. So that
8 may be one of the drivers of it. I don't
9 know. I hope that the task force will give
10 us better ideas.
11 I will repeat what I said earlier: We
12 are still going to be able to separate, which
13 is the number-one thing you need to do when
14 you have violence. Whether it's an
15 incarcerated individual against another one,
16 or against staff, they need to be removed
17 physically from where they are, they can't
18 remain in general confinement.
19 The conditions of SHU, traditional
20 SHU, are going to change. RRUs are going to
21 change. But they will still be managed
22 safely. We're going to deliver out-of-cell
23 programming and treatment safely so that
24 everybody can still feel safe. If anybody
426
1 thinks they can commit serious crimes or, you
2 know, be involved in gangs and they'll still
3 be able to run their game in the yard or
4 whatever -- not going to happen.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you,
6 Commissioner.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
8 We go to Assemblywoman Kelles now.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Wonderful,
10 thank you so much.
11 Hello, Commissioner.
12 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Hello.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Good afternoon,
14 not morning.
15 Just a couple of comments, a few
16 questions. One of the things that has been
17 brought up before is programming,
18 specifically for rehabilitation.
19 I just want to mention -- I know I've
20 spoken to your staff about this, others have
21 as well. But I would love to see the Roots
22 of Success program initiated and expanded
23 within the prison system, the program that is
24 a 10-module program to teach about
427
1 sustainability and work development in
2 housing, electrification, water resources.
3 It's an amazing program in 34 states,
4 20 years of experience, two countries. It
5 has shown to reduce costs of waste and water
6 usage and energy usage, reduction in
7 recidivism rates, reduction in violence to
8 corrections officers -- you name it, this
9 program has been really {unintelligible}.
10 I'd love to see that put in place in
11 our system. I know Ohio has been doing this
12 for 10, 20 years and they have seen huge
13 turnarounds in their system.
14 Another thing I wanted to mention from
15 my conversations -- I think I asked you a
16 similar question last year and in talks with
17 some of the prisons that I've visited -- the
18 people who are released from prison, between
19 40 and 50 percent of them go directly into
20 shelters. So I think relying specifically on
21 the goodwill of nonprofits is not going to be
22 enough to absorb that level. I think putting
23 in state funding and supports specifically
24 into transition housing is going to be
428
1 necessary. So just wanted to add that.
2 And you had mentioned -- a quote-ish
3 from you: Whatever you've done in the past,
4 there's still a chance to turn your life
5 around, and your life matters. I believe in
6 this. I agree with you deeply. And wanted
7 to just add, then, if the way that people can
8 build a sense of meaning and self-value in an
9 incarceration system is to actively
10 participate in college courses that build a
11 sense of self-worth and provide valuable life
12 skills that could be used in the community
13 once they're released as well as reduce their
14 likelihood of recidivism, would it not be
15 logical, then, to maximize access to these
16 merit-time programs?
17 And a previous questioner specifically
18 asked what disqualifies someone from
19 participating in college courses and other
20 programs, alluding to a mindset of punishment
21 in a system that's supposed to be about
22 corrections.
23 Do you not believe that giving a
24 person hope and a sense of self-worth through
429
1 these types of programs could actually be
2 seen as a way to reduce crime in a prison and
3 protect corrections officers?
4 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: So very
5 good points. First of all, we'll always look
6 at any new programs. The one you just
7 described -- I meet with my corrections
8 commissioners from across the country
9 regularly. We stay in touch with each other.
10 When I go there I look at their programs,
11 whatever's being showcased. There's a lot of
12 good stuff out there. So we'll certainly be
13 happy to look at that.
14 The shelter issue number is a
15 challenge. I think I mentioned that a lot do
16 go to shelter, but at least they don't stay
17 too terribly long. The average stay in the
18 New York City shelter system for those being
19 released to it is about 37 days. I'd like it
20 to be zero days, but it's 37 days.
21 Back to who is eligible to participate
22 in college, we don't put up any barriers for
23 anybody to participate in college. We
24 welcome them. I continually showcase the
430
1 success stories. When I was out in Phoenix
2 recently there was a presentation by an
3 individual, he gave me his book. I'm going
4 to distribute it in my library. He was a
5 significant drug dealer. His book is From
6 Prison Cells to Ph.D. He got his Ph.D.,
7 he's an endocrinologist at John Hopkins. I'm
8 going to put his book in our library so he
9 can further incentivize other individuals.
10 And his point is we should be as open
11 as we can to everybody to participate in
12 college. It's not just get them a vocational
13 job -- which is very important, but people
14 can go beyond college. They can get master's
15 degrees, they can get Ph.D.s. And if it was
16 possible for him, it could be possible for
17 just about anybody.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
19 Thank you, Commissioner.
20 We're now going to go to our final
21 questioner, Assemblyman Weprin, chair of
22 Corrections, for a second round of three
23 minutes.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Thank you,
431
1 Madam Chair.
2 Commissioner, thank you for the long
3 day of participation.
4 The racial diversity study that
5 Senator Hoylman referred to was a little
6 disturbing, based on the statistics that they
7 cited. I think the answer is the
8 diversification of the Parole Board, which
9 has happened since I'm chair. We've filled a
10 number of spots, and they've been a much more
11 diverse board, as you pointed out earlier
12 today.
13 I believe there are still even three
14 or four vacancies. I think we passed
15 legislation to allow up to 19 members, and I
16 think it's either 15 or 16. I think your
17 website says 15; I've heard 16. So there are
18 either three or four vacancies on the Parole.
19 Can you recommend to the Governor that they
20 be filled as soon as possible? And I would
21 hope that, you know, video interviews not be
22 a substitute for in-person post-COVID.
23 because I know they've been emphasizing video
24 visits because of COVID, but I would like to
432
1 see more in-person, especially if we can get
2 more parole commissioners up to speed, up to
3 19, and then they can travel all over the
4 state. And I think that is certainly the
5 best way to give people a fair chance at, you
6 know, being released and being welcomed back
7 into society.
8 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: So,
9 Assemblyman, the Governor has already done
10 that. She's announced in her State of the
11 State and it's in the budget that she wants
12 to have all 19 positions filled. There's
13 also a provision in there that they can't do
14 any outside employment so that they can
15 devote their full time and attention to the
16 job at hand, which is making informed
17 decisions following parole release
18 interviews, setting conditions, et cetera,
19 and doing all related work.
20 So that's her intention. I fully
21 support that. I think it makes sense. And
22 I'm sure they'll come up with continuing
23 diversity to represent all New Yorkers on the
24 Parole Board.
433
1 I'll convey your sentiments on the
2 second point to the chairwoman, and it will
3 be her decision what to do with that.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Okay, thank you.
5 Again, I will also emphasize to the
6 Governor the importance of filling these,
7 because as you know, since I've been chair
8 since 2017, we had about six or seven
9 vacancies, and I urge filling them and have
10 made recommendations of various diverse
11 members.
12 So, you know, I do think that the
13 newer members are much more diverse than the
14 older members, and certainly more reflective
15 of the population of New York State. So, you
16 know, I strongly would emphasize that as
17 well.
18 ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI: Very
19 good, Assemblyman. Thank you.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you,
21 Commissioner. I'm going to turn -- thank you
22 for being here with us this year as well as
23 so many other years.
24 I'm going to turn this back to
434
1 Senator Krueger.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
3 much. And indeed, Commissioner, thank you
4 for spending much of your afternoon with us.
5 We will now allow you to go back to the rest
6 of your day.
7 And we will be calling up, from the
8 New York State division of State Police,
9 Kevin Bruen, the acting superintendent.
10 Are you with us, Superintendent?
11 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: I am.
12 And I'm no longer acting, which is
13 good.
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. Well,
15 welcome, Superintendent.
16 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Thank you.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And you know the
18 drill around here.
19 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: I do.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We have your
21 testimony, but try to summarize your key
22 points in 10 minutes or under, and then we
23 will start to ask you questions, those of us
24 who are still standing ourselves. Thank you.
435
1 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: I will. Thank
2 you, Chairs Krueger and Weinstein and
3 distinguished members of the joint committee,
4 for the opportunity to discuss Governor
5 Hochul's Executive Budget for the Division of
6 State Police.
7 I'm Kevin Bruen, superintendent of the
8 New York State Police.
9 I want to thank the Legislature for
10 its continued support of the New York State
11 Police. Because of your support, Troopers
12 continue to uphold this agency's reputation
13 as one of the finest law enforcement agencies
14 in the country.
15 For more than 100 years, the New York
16 State Police has consistently provided a high
17 level of professional public service. We
18 learn and adapt to the needs of a constantly
19 changing society, and we strive for
20 continuous improvement in every aspect of our
21 work. Our mission priorities remain the
22 same: Highway safety, professional police
23 services, investigative support, detecting
24 and preventing terrorism, preparing for and
436
1 responding to emergencies and disasters.
2 As you are aware, the majority of the
3 appropriations for the State Police
4 operations are in support of personnel
5 service obligations. Most non-personnel
6 service appropriations are non-discretionary
7 expenditures for things like vehicles,
8 equipment, facilities, and communications.
9 These expenditures are essential for
10 providing the tools necessary for the men and
11 women of the State Police to fulfill their
12 law enforcement missions.
13 Getting the State Police back to an
14 adequate staffing level is a top priority.
15 To that end, we currently have an Academy
16 class, and we are expecting a second, and
17 potentially a third later this year.
18 In addition, we are currently offering
19 our Trooper Entrance Exam, and we continue to
20 seek the highest-quality candidates. We want
21 to hire and retain the most diverse group of
22 individuals that reflect our communities and
23 the communities we serve. To that end, we
24 have made our exam more accessible by moving
437
1 to a computer-based platform, making the exam
2 available at testing centers across the
3 state, upwards of 50, 250 nationwide, and
4 across the military installations around the
5 world.
6 We have also enhanced our recruiting
7 efforts and implemented a marketing plan to
8 expand our reach into minority communities.
9 I know that many of you reached out to your
10 constituents on our behalf to help build
11 awareness of the exam, and we appreciate any
12 continued assistance you can provide.
13 Another top priority is addressing gun
14 violence. The Governor has included in the
15 proposed budget expenditures that would help
16 expand our efforts to reduce the threat of
17 gun violence across the state.
18 One such proposal is funding expanded
19 Community Stabilization Units, where we
20 partner with local law enforcement to
21 proactively address gun violence with an
22 intelligence-based approach that identifies
23 and concentrates on the greatest threats of
24 gun violence. We have had success since this
438
1 initiative was started last year, and these
2 additional resources will allow us to assist
3 more communities.
4 We also seek to improve our crime
5 tracing abilities so that we can identify and
6 break up illegal firearms trafficking
7 operations. We are already working closely
8 with our federal, state and local partners,
9 including the NYPD and the ATF, and have had
10 success in taking illegally possessed guns
11 off the streets.
12 Governor Hochul's proposal to fund a
13 team of analysts at the New York State
14 Intelligence Center will provide much-needed
15 additional support that would help the State
16 Police and our partners identify, disrupt,
17 and shut down such gun trafficking
18 operations. Our focus on gun trafficking is
19 already paying off -- our gun seizures, as an
20 agency, are up over 200 percent from last
21 year.
22 Another pressing concern relates to
23 the analysis of smartphones and other digital
24 devices by our Computer Forensic Laboratory.
439
1 There has been an exponential increase in the
2 lab's caseload and the complexity of the
3 devices being used to commit crimes has
4 highlighted the need for additional
5 resources. The Governor's proposed budget
6 includes funding for new equipment and
7 software to expand our Computer Crime Unit to
8 combat the proliferation of crimes being
9 committed using highly technological means.
10 In addition, highway safety remains
11 one of our core missions. I would like to
12 update you on our ongoing efforts to ensure
13 highway safety following the legalization of
14 adult-use cannabis. One part of our safety
15 strategy includes training all Troopers in
16 something known as ARIDE, Advanced Roadside
17 Impaired Driving Enforcement.
18 This is a federally developed program
19 that allows Troopers with additional training
20 to help identify drug- and alcohol-impaired
21 drivers, and it fills the gap between the
22 standard field sobriety tests and something
23 known as the highly specialized Drug
24 Recognition Expert training.
440
1 So far, nearly 80 percent of our
2 Troopers on the road have received ARIDE
3 training, and all new Academy recruits are
4 instructed and trained in ARIDE.
5 Our highest priority continues to be
6 public safety and the safety of our members.
7 With your support, the Executive Budget
8 continues to provide Troopers with the
9 necessary equipment, training, and other
10 valuable resources to ensure their safety as
11 they carry out their duties in serving and
12 protecting the public.
13 Again, I am honored and privileged to
14 represent the nearly 6,000 dedicated men and
15 women of the State Police who serve and
16 protect the people of this great state. They
17 do so selflessly, with tremendous pride, and
18 at sometimes great personal risk.
19 Thank you very much for your support
20 for the State Police and for the opportunity
21 to address you all. I welcome any questions
22 you may have.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
24 much, Superintendent Bruen.
441
1 I believe our first questioner will be
2 the chair of our Codes Committee, Senator
3 Jamaal Bailey.
4 SENATOR BAILEY: Thank you, Madam
5 Chair.
6 And Superintendent, good to see you
7 again. We briefly -- we were able to
8 converse last year during your confirmation
9 when you went from "acting" to
10 "superintendent." So I just wanted to
11 congratulate you and thank you for your
12 testimony today.
13 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Thanks,
14 Senator. Good to see you.
15 SENATOR BAILEY: Yes, sir.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Jamaal, one
17 second. Whoever's on clock, please end the
18 superintendent's 10 minutes. Oh, there you
19 do. Perfect. Thank you, Jamaal.
20 SENATOR BAILEY: No problem.
21 So you mentioned the -- obviously the
22 issue of gun violence is something that has
23 permeated a lot of the conversation today in
24 the Public Protection hearing, regardless of
442
1 who's been testifying. And you mentioned
2 there was an effort by the Governor in the
3 Executive Budget, speaking about, you know,
4 local law enforcement and the State Police.
5 What does that look like in practice?
6 Like, for example, how does the State
7 Police -- like how does a certain troop,
8 Troop A or Troop B or whatever the troop
9 number is, how would that troop partner with
10 local law enforcement in order to be able to
11 assist with gun violence prevention?
12 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: It looks
13 different depending on the community and on
14 the problem. When they reach out to us, we
15 assign the right number of supervisors and
16 investigative support. They gather
17 intelligence, they come up with a plan. And
18 it could be, for example, problems on
19 weekends in particular areas, so we may
20 deploy both uniformed Troopers or
21 investigators, and we may do follow-up,
22 depending on arrests or intelligence
23 developed around gang violence.
24 A lot of this -- unfortunately, a lot
443
1 of this gun violence is associated with gang
2 activity, which may mean things like local
3 disputes and if you have enough intelligence
4 you might be able to get ahead of that and
5 disrupt that violent event.
6 So it will look different at different
7 places.
8 SENATOR BAILEY: Okay. Because again,
9 there's been conversation about the Troopers
10 and their presence in the City of New York
11 in -- I also represent Westchester County as
12 well, and so I'm just always curious as to
13 how the interagency I guess synergy, for lack
14 of a better term, would work.
15 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Great question.
16 And quite frankly, the way it works when it's
17 the City of New York or other communities, I
18 may speak initially with the police
19 commissioner of the City of New York, we'll
20 talk about things to develop new plans or
21 things that -- ways that we're not already
22 cooperating.
23 But we're already cooperating with
24 NYPD on guns. Their intel units and their
444
1 people are right up -- the Troopers who
2 develop some of these cases may not in fact
3 be in New York. They may be somewhere else
4 and -- but the destination of these illegal
5 guns, let's say is Westchester or is New York
6 City, and in that case we'll reach out and
7 develop a strategy with them on any
8 particular case.
9 SENATOR BAILEY: Thank you.
10 So my understanding is that there's
11 roughly $6.1 million allocated towards
12 recruitment efforts. You mentioned in terms
13 of recruitment that there were efforts afoot
14 to attempt to reach out to communities of
15 color and to engage communities of color in
16 relation to the tests. I know it's a
17 conversation that you and I have had before
18 about the diversity within the ranks of that.
19 How does that money get spent in
20 actuality? And also I'd like to ask a
21 follow-up question in terms of diversity
22 within the leadership structure of the State
23 Police.
24 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Right. Let me
445
1 answer the first one.
2 I don't think I have that much money
3 dedicated to recruiting. I would love if I
4 could go into the couch and pull out $6
5 million for that. We have used asset
6 forfeiture money and are approaching a
7 million dollars in terms of it, but I don't
8 think we're approaching 6 million.
9 I would say, more importantly, is what
10 we've done is -- I've told you that we've
11 changed that test. And that was a great
12 idea, internally driven. When I looked at
13 our diversity numbers, I said: "You've got a
14 great idea here, we need to now exploit it."
15 And so I created a dedicated recruiting unit
16 that is a full-time recruitment and
17 development unit that has developed
18 recruiting teams and these community outreach
19 programs, and also revamped our advertising,
20 which -- where we spend significant money
21 there, and internet-based advertising, and
22 our own kind of social media presence.
23 The other thing we've done is we've
24 reached out to community partners across the
446
1 state -- Rochester, Buffalo, Syracuse, the
2 Hudson Valley, Poughkeepsie, we've got
3 meetings in New York City -- where we'll meet
4 a range of community leaders -- youth group
5 leaders, church folks, elected officials --
6 and we'll have sort of a meeting with
7 influencers, community influencers, pitch
8 that idea, and then use those contacts and
9 connections to then get in and do active
10 recruiting.
11 So -- and I have something to tell you
12 which is -- I don't want to lose the good
13 news for all the details -- we have a testing
14 period right now, people have signed up to
15 take the test, people have actually taken the
16 test. And our numbers, in terms of the
17 minority sign-ups, are double, triple what
18 they were the last cycle. So we're over
19 20 percent African-American signed up, four
20 times Asian-Americans, increase in Hispanics.
21 It's early days yet, but this effort,
22 this targeted effort -- and I sometimes like
23 to say it's a targeted effort to someone who
24 doesn't necessarily see themselves as a
447
1 Trooper. But you do the social media, and
2 then you do the one-on-one kind of recruiting
3 saying to this person, hey, we see qualities
4 in you that would make you an excellent
5 State Trooper, and here's why.
6 So the effort has paid off so far.
7 SENATOR BAILEY: That certainly does
8 bode well for the efforts of improving
9 overall diversity within the ranks of the
10 department.
11 The second question I guess dovetails
12 off of that in relation to leadership
13 positions within the State Police. You know,
14 and we would hope that the leadership would
15 also be reflective of the great diversity of
16 the state. How is that effort going? How is
17 that taking place in practice? How are we
18 diversifying the ranks of leadership within
19 the organization of the State Police?
20 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: So the second
21 mission of that group I created that's headed
22 up by a commissioned officer -- a captain,
23 which is a significant rank inside the State
24 Police -- the second part of that mission
448
1 is -- the first is get people in the door
2 right now. The second part of it is I want
3 you to look at the whole process,
4 holistically. Are there barriers, are there
5 barriers to promotion coming on the job or
6 promotions through the ranks?
7 The good news is that there doesn't
8 appear -- at first blush, there does not
9 appear to be barriers, that the number of
10 commissioned officers, which is our highest
11 group of supervisors, reflects the number of
12 the overall ranks. So just sticking with
13 African-Americans, I have 4 percent
14 African-American Troopers, I have 4 percent
15 African-American commissioned officers.
16 But we still have to look at those,
17 are there -- and beyond barriers, is there
18 support we could provide? You know, hey,
19 there's -- to develop leaders, to retain
20 leaders longer into their career to reach the
21 higher level commissioned officer and
22 supervisor ranks.
23 I still go back to my initial problem,
24 which is I do not have a diverse enough
449
1 workforce. We need to put maximum effort
2 into that. I do believe, although it's
3 longer term, that once we get those numbers
4 up, the promotion and supervisory thing will
5 work out, we'll benefit from that. But
6 again, the direction is look at every piece
7 of it, defend every piece of what we're
8 doing, and expand our efforts for minority
9 and women in terms of the higher-ranking
10 officers.
11 SENATOR BAILEY: Superintendent, so I
12 guess my last couple of minutes will be
13 utilized in terms of speaking about the body
14 cameras, the recent body cameras, I guess.
15 In sum and substance, how many body cameras
16 have you purchased and how many will be
17 purchased this year, and how is the program
18 going thus far in its implementation?
19 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: We have rolled
20 out the body cameras to the vast majority of
21 the Troopers. The number of body cameras
22 will be roughly 3,000. The last troop that's
23 being rolled out is A Troop. That's the
24 Buffalo area. I expect that that rollout
450
1 will be completed by the end of next month,
2 and that will be -- and Troopers will have
3 that fully done.
4 The experience has been very good.
5 The Troopers have accepted it and in fact
6 embraced it. It's been very useful so far,
7 and I think it's a great program.
8 You know, I've got a concern, which is
9 we've got to make sure that we're able to
10 reproduce and get the video out the door, so
11 that's an effort. It takes a fair amount of
12 time to redact the video and make -- get it
13 ready to be disclosed in a public -- under
14 our FOIL system. But I really wish people
15 could watch the videos I've watched, just
16 randomly. You'd see Troopers helping people
17 and being professional and great all the
18 time.
19 SENATOR BAILEY: Without a doubt.
20 And I would imagine -- so I guess the
21 final -- I guess the final question is let's
22 say that there is a violation. What happens
23 if an officer is found not have turned on the
24 body camera? What are the rules and
451
1 regulations of the State Police if it's not
2 being recorded during their time of duty?
3 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Well, it's a
4 requirement. You are supposed to use it.
5 You are supposed to utilize it, engage it
6 when appropriate and required.
7 If you don't, you're going to be
8 subject to discipline. If you've done it
9 accidentally, if there's a minor inattention
10 to detail, you'll get one set of punishments;
11 if you're really doing it on a routine basis,
12 your job is in jeopardy. You know, there's a
13 wide range of ways that you could create
14 this. So far we have not run into that
15 problem.
16 SENATOR BAILEY: Okay. Thank you,
17 Superintendent. Madam Chair, I may have a
18 second round. But for now, thank you so
19 much.
20 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Thank you, sir.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
22 We go to chair of the Assembly Codes
23 Committee, Assemblyman Dinowitz, 10 minutes.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Thank you.
452
1 Superintendent, good afternoon. It's
2 still afternoon, right, it's not evening yet?
3 Oh, it is evening. Sorry about that.
4 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: We're getting
5 closer.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: We are.
7 Well, listen, we've made progress.
8 You are the sixth of 26 witnesses, and we
9 have managed to do that in just a little --
10 about six and a half hours. So pretty good.
11 So several years ago when we passed
12 the SAFE Act, New York extended -- wrongly,
13 in my opinion -- I should say ended wrongly
14 its own attempt at creating a database to
15 collect and submit all ballistics evidence of
16 weapons sold in New York.
17 And as I'm sure you know, the Assembly
18 Codes Committee, which I chair, held a
19 hearing that examined in part this database.
20 Now, your agency, for whatever reason, chose
21 not to appear at that hearing, which was
22 unfortunate because I thought it could have
23 been very helpful to try to get to the bottom
24 of why it's taken so long to get this done.
453
1 So my question is, when will the state
2 create its ammunition database to track sales
3 to residents who may be assembling deadly
4 stores of ammunition, as mandated by the SAFE
5 Act? Because too much time has passed
6 already.
7 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: The -- if I
8 understand the -- I think you're talking
9 about the ammunition check as opposed to the
10 CoBIS database that was shut down years ago,
11 which was the storage of expended shell
12 casings. So I think we're talking about the
13 SAFE Act, which is the ammunition check.
14 There are significant problems and
15 challenges with creating that system. The
16 most significant and the biggest problem we
17 face is that federal law prohibits the use of
18 the NICS system to check the eligibility or
19 suitability of someone purchasing ammunition.
20 So the only database that we could check is
21 New York's criminal records system.
22 The next problem is the problem of
23 infrastructure. We do not have an existing
24 infrastructure or a technology infrastructure
454
1 to create the check of the suitability for
2 sale. However, I've spoken to Director
3 Riddick, and he and I both have agreed that
4 he and I need to start meeting on this again
5 and re-look at it from our team's point of
6 view, to see if there are things that we can
7 advance the ball here on. Because I agree
8 with you, it's gone too long and we need to
9 move this further down the road.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Okay. I mean,
11 nine years. I think the state built the
12 Tappan Zee Bridge, or the Cuomo Bridge, in
13 just a few years, so I'm pretty sure we have
14 the capability of getting this done if we
15 really wanted to.
16 So about three years ago the
17 Legislature enacted a law that allows law
18 enforcement to remove firearms from people
19 charged with domestic violence offenses and
20 the courts to revoke or suspend their
21 firearms licenses. And this info is then
22 reported to the State Police and DCJS,
23 presumably for inclusion in the statewide
24 license and record database established in
455
1 the SAFE Act.
2 However, as far as I know -- and tell
3 me if I'm wrong -- this -- it's my
4 understanding this license and record
5 database, like the ammunition sales database,
6 is not operational, and it's been -- it's
7 been quite some time.
8 So I just want to first find out, is
9 that correct, what I just said?
10 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: I don't think
11 so. I mean, the -- there -- a couple of
12 years ago there was something called the ERPO
13 law that was passed, and that's one thing.
14 The -- if you have your license revoked by a
15 county -- or suspended -- based on domestic
16 violence, that county licensing officer would
17 communicate to the State Police that that's
18 occurred, and we'd make a record of it.
19 The license database years ago was
20 very crowded, had multiple platforms -- in
21 other words, when -- a license that was just
22 issued in the '30s was on paper and, you
23 know, it was done in very different ways
24 around the state. That's been cleaned up
456
1 through the recertification process. I think
2 we're now into the second round of pistol
3 permit recertification.
4 So a lot of that has been cleaned up,
5 and we have a pistol permit database and we
6 also have a -- it obviously mirrors the
7 county records, licensing. The State Police
8 does not issue pistol permits. And we have a
9 registry of assault weapons, which we're in
10 the second round of recertification of that
11 as well.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Okay.
13 Regarding the first one that I talked about,
14 the ammunition, what is your sense in terms
15 of being able to adhere to the -- what we
16 decided to do so many years ago? Like how
17 soon?
18 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: I don't have an
19 estimate on it right now. I'm telling you
20 that my -- my read and understanding of this
21 is the challenges are very significant. The
22 biggest challenge is that we could only --
23 due to the federal law, only check records
24 generated in New York. So if you come in
457
1 from Iowa, there's no check. So we have that
2 initial problem that's built in.
3 The next problem is similar to -- you
4 know, is a technological one, which is in the
5 middle of Hamilton County when there's not a
6 lot of connectivity, how do you check that
7 system against the database -- and these
8 databases are in place and owned by DCJS and
9 OMH -- against that?
10 What I'm telling you is that we're
11 going to -- the director of ITS and myself
12 are going to sit down and grab people and
13 really examine what it is we're doing, what
14 can we do, and what recommendations we can
15 make based on this. I get the frustration.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Okay. Well,
17 obviously I would encourage that to happen
18 expeditiously. Thank you very much.
19 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Thank you, sir.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: To the Senate.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Senator Pete Harckham.
23 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Thank you, Madam
24 Chair.
458
1 Superintendent, thank you for your
2 testimony thus far. Good evening. And
3 please accept my thanks to all the women and
4 men of the State Police for everything you do
5 to keep us safe.
6 In my brief time I want to discuss the
7 opioid crisis and overdose. As we know, very
8 often it's law enforcement who are the first
9 to arrive on the scene of an overdose. And
10 we have a spectrum of responses to that. We
11 have some local police that treat an overdose
12 scene like a crime scene, and other
13 departments treat it like a behavioral health
14 crisis and actually will bring peers and
15 social workers to connect those people, if
16 they survive the overdose, with services and
17 treatment.
18 Where does the New York State Police
19 fall in that spectrum?
20 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Well, I would
21 say we do both. For one thing, we understand
22 that an individual who's overdosed has a
23 certain set of problems. And I don't think
24 there's anybody in the State Police --
459
1 members of the State Police family are not
2 excluded from being aware of people who have
3 had real tragedies with the opioid crisis.
4 But we also are a police agency and we
5 want to know where they got -- who provided
6 this to them, who's profiting off of this.
7 And so we have a -- I won't get into the
8 details, but a robust effort put on by the
9 Bureau of Criminal Investigation to
10 backward-track how that person got the
11 opioid, how was it dealt, and who was the
12 person profiting from this outrage.
13 SENATOR HARCKHAM: What are you doing
14 at the scene to hook that individual up with
15 services, whether it be a peer, a warm
16 handoff to treatment? What is the State
17 Police's role, what do you view your role as
18 in that interaction?
19 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: We have crime
20 victim specialists and other people that we
21 make that referral to, but we would also --
22 it would vary from county to county and place
23 to place depending on the services available.
24 It's sometimes hard in that very
460
1 particular situation, as much as I would like
2 to control and have the response be the same
3 in every community, depending on available
4 services we would do it differently in
5 different places.
6 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Are all of your
7 Troopers trained in the use of naloxone, and
8 are they required to carry it with them at
9 all times?
10 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: The answer is
11 they are all trained and they all have it in
12 the vehicles, troop cars.
13 SENATOR HARCKHAM: All right,
14 terrific, thank you. I would like to offline
15 discuss with you, when we have some time,
16 some of the innovative programs that are
17 being done in some of the counties across the
18 state.
19 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Outstanding.
20 Thank you, sir.
21 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Thank you.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
23 much, Pete.
24 Next, Assembly?
461
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
2 Assemblyman Lawler.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: Thank you,
4 Madam Chair.
5 Thank you, Superintendent, for joining
6 us. I know it's been a long day of waiting
7 around.
8 So on the issue of bail reform, the
9 mayor of the City of New York put out
10 yesterday, as part of his plan to combat gun
11 violence, the need for judicial discretion
12 and the ability of judges to look at the
13 dangerousness of the individual, look at the
14 evidence, look at their prior history.
15 Do you support what the mayor has said
16 on this as a means of reforming the bail law
17 that was passed?
18 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: You know, we
19 make it a point of sticking to our lane, and
20 decisions about bail reform or changes or
21 tweaks to the bail, you know, I would leave
22 to all of you and the courts.
23 You know, we follow and implement the
24 rules as they are. You know, I understand
462
1 the general concept that it was difficult to
2 see someone stay in jail when there was --
3 you know, for failure to be able to post a
4 small amount of bail for a minor offense, and
5 I understand the other end of the spectrum,
6 which is what status do we give to a person
7 when police officers have made an arrest in
8 what's an armed felony offense and the
9 person's armed with a gun? I understand
10 that.
11 But, you know, we pretty much stick to
12 what my job is, and that whatever you
13 implement, we live with.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: Okay. And
15 further along those lines, the mayor also
16 indicated that he would be bringing back the
17 anti-crime unit, which has focused primarily,
18 in the past, getting illegal guns off the
19 streets. Obviously the Governor has made it
20 a priority of hers to address the scourge of
21 illegal guns coming into the state. She has
22 also talked about the State Police going down
23 to New York City and working cooperatively
24 with the NYPD on this effort.
463
1 Do you support or do you think it
2 necessary for the anti-crime unit to be
3 brought back? And would you support using
4 the State Police to help in that effort?
5 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: I wouldn't
6 presume to tell the NYPD what units to stand
7 up or not stand up. We don't have a similar
8 unit. We have a different approach, and
9 that's the Community Stabilization Unit.
10 I have been in conversations with the
11 police commissioner, the new police
12 commissioner, and we have discussed a range
13 of options. We want to do something on gun
14 violence. We're already doing it together.
15 We -- as I told Senator Bailey,
16 we'll -- we, the State Police, can develop
17 intelligence that guns are coming -- heading
18 to a particular area in New York City, open
19 that case up, gather information, do
20 surveillance and other things. And we work
21 directly with the New York City Police
22 Department, and those cases have led to
23 arrests within the last few days. We're
24 doing that constantly.
464
1 The Troopers are already there. They
2 may not be wearing the Stetson and the full
3 uniform, these may be investigators who are
4 developing intelligence and listening to
5 phone calls and doing surveillance and that
6 sort of thing. So we're doing it, we're
7 expanding it. The Governor has made it a
8 priority and, in essence, told me, you know,
9 get going. And the new police commissioner
10 and I have had very productive conversations
11 and are really looking forward to continuing
12 to work together and even work together more
13 collaboratively and in sort of a more free
14 police agency-to-police agency way.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: I appreciate
16 that.
17 And the last thing, you know, I think
18 there certainly can be bipartisan support for
19 increased training for law enforcement, and
20 especially with some of the reforms that have
21 been put in place in recent years, ensuring
22 that our police officers have the resources
23 they need to implement many of these laws.
24 And so I've introduced a bill that
465
1 would create a $250 million fund for training
2 for law enforcement as well as other first
3 responders. And so I would just encourage
4 you to talk with the Governor, certainly, and
5 certainly I will talk with my colleagues.
6 But I think creating a designated fund to
7 support training for law enforcement -- and
8 truly ensuring they have the resources they
9 need -- is critical. And so I would
10 certainly encourage you to support that
11 effort.
12 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: We certainly
13 would.
14 But, Assemblyman, we spend a great
15 deal of time and effort training New York
16 State Troopers. It takes a very long time to
17 become a State Trooper, more than six
18 months -- it's almost a year to become a
19 fully functioning State Trooper, and they get
20 thousands of hours of training and then
21 continued training. So -- and that's due to
22 your support.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: My cousin is one,
24 and they do a great job. So thank you very
466
1 much for your service.
2 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Thank you, sir.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 Senate?
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
6 Next is Senator Andrew Gounardes.
7 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Thank you,
8 Senator Krueger.
9 Good -- I guess it's almost evening
10 now, Superintendent.
11 I want to talk a little bit about the
12 executive order that former Governor Cuomo
13 issued in 2019 that basically gave your
14 department operational control of the
15 New York State Park Police. And my first
16 question to you is in the last two years, I
17 would like to get your assessment as to how
18 you think that transfer of operational
19 control has been thus far.
20 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Yeah, the State
21 Police has had operational control of the
22 Park Police for about two years.
23 The relationship between the State
24 Police and the Park Police, in my judgment,
467
1 has been excellent for years. The
2 cooperation between the Troopers and the Park
3 Policemen and Park Policewomen has been
4 fantastic. They were tremendous partners
5 during COVID. They have, like us, not had
6 new recruits for some time, so they've got
7 falling numbers. And my Troopers have had to
8 fill the gaps and provide some services
9 there.
10 You know, I've met with the Park
11 Police union upwards of half a dozen times,
12 particularly early on. So we're making it
13 work.
14 We're going to provide the support to
15 the Office of Parks and Historic Preservation
16 going forward in terms of looking at areas
17 that the Park Police -- where they need to
18 be, what's the right size of them, where they
19 should be physically present all the time,
20 what parks can operate as response parks.
21 The parks downstate --
22 SENATOR GOUNARDES: I'm sorry,
23 superintendent, I want to piggyback -- I
24 appreciate that answer. I only have a little
468
1 bit more than a minute left.
2 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Sorry.
3 SENATOR GOUNARDES: I do appreciate
4 your answer.
5 I know over the last two years the
6 Park Police has lost about a hundred members
7 and I think they're under 200 officers right
8 now for the entire State of New York, which
9 is shocking in many ways.
10 They've had no -- like you said, no
11 new academies, but they've also not been
12 eligible for any transfers or promotions
13 every since this effective merger or
14 operational control was made. And so while
15 it's great, I'm glad to see that the
16 Governor's proposing a new class specifically
17 for the Park Police to graduate in a few
18 years, I really wonder whether or not it
19 makes sense to continue to have the
20 Park Police operate under the State Police
21 control and whether or not you would agree or
22 you would support rescinding that executive
23 order from December of 2019 to allow the
24 Park Police to operate the way that they used
469
1 to, with fuller resources, under the Office
2 of Parks and Historic Preservation.
3 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: So I'm also
4 at -- I've lost nearly 600 Troopers during
5 that same period due to retirements and what
6 have you. We're at staffing lows.
7 The good news for the State Police and
8 the Governor is if the Governor asks us to do
9 something, we'll do it. So we'll either
10 administer and work with our brothers and
11 sisters in the Park Police and serve and
12 protect the patrons of the parks just like we
13 do the citizens of the state, or not.
14 But in any case, whether we're
15 operating -- using operational control or
16 we're not, I have to say that the working
17 people, Troopers and Park Police officers,
18 work fantastically well together and the
19 relationship is great.
20 SENATOR GOUNARDES: I appreciate that.
21 Thank you.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
23 Chair Weinstein.
24 You're on mute.
470
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I want to just
2 actually go to myself to -- since my question
3 was a follow-up to Senator Gounardes'
4 question about the Park Police.
5 Are the Troopers going to be
6 responsible for conducting the next Park
7 Police Academy?
8 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: The Park Police
9 has run their own academy. And to the extent
10 they needed discrete help from us, we would
11 certainly provide it. We've done that in the
12 past and would continue to do it.
13 They have capabilities in training
14 that we've taken advantage of from time to
15 time. So the Park Police have the capability
16 of running their own academy.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: And as you said
18 to Senator Gounardes, so for the time being
19 you're continuing with the operational
20 control of the Park Police? There's not an
21 end date set for that?
22 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: I've not been
23 told of one.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay, great.
471
1 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: So we're trying
2 to -- yeah, trying to right-size it, trying
3 to make sure that they're in the right places
4 and where they're not able to do things,
5 we're going to follow up and support.
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Great, thank
7 you, Superintendent.
8 I'm going to send it back to the
9 Senate.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay, thank you,
11 Assemblywoman.
12 Our next Senator is Senator Savino.
13 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: I think Senator
14 Savino has left the hearing.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh. Well, thank
16 you. I guess -- you're right, I'm looking
17 for her box and I don't see her.
18 All right, so then I'm going to jump
19 in with my questions, Superintendent.
20 Let's start with under the Cuomo
21 administration he had a policy of taking I
22 believe up to 250 State Troopers and moving
23 them into New York City at a time. And I'm
24 in New York City, so I'm certainly not
472
1 unhappy to see State Troopers, but I never
2 saw any real demand for them from NYPD or
3 other city government agencies, while I've
4 heard from many of my colleagues from upstate
5 that they desperately are looking to find
6 more State Troopers.
7 So I'm curious whether there might be
8 a change of policy with the new Governor.
9 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: The Governor
10 has instructed me to make sure that what
11 we're doing in New York City is not
12 duplicative of the NYPD. And we're not doing
13 that.
14 And that's part of the discussions
15 I've had with the police commissioner, that
16 we're going to do things that support them,
17 add value to public safety, and are different
18 than what they would normally do. And we've
19 had plenty of great conversations with the
20 NYPD, and you will be seeing some things that
21 I think really add to the public safety
22 picture of the city.
23 But there's no doubt, we are not a
24 replacement to the NYPD, nor would we dream
473
1 to be. We're the State Police, and we have
2 capabilities and talents that are different
3 and can mesh well with the NYPD.
4 And the relationship and existence of
5 the State Police in New York City has been
6 there for a long time. I know there was much
7 made of it recently, and there were more
8 uniformed Troopers then, but there have been
9 State Police in the city for over 50 years.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And I don't have
11 a conflict with there being a good
12 relationship between the State Police and
13 NYPD, obviously. But 250 is a significant
14 head count. And given that I hear from
15 colleagues in other parts of the state how
16 worried they are that they don't have an
17 adequate supply of State Troopers, I just
18 wondered whether it was a discussion worthy
19 of changing the formula or the number of
20 people on New York City duty --
21 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: There's no
22 doubt -- there's no doubt that we're looking
23 to make sure that we have the right size for
24 the mission that we have in there. There's
474
1 no doubt. And that we can support the
2 mission in New York City -- I said this
3 before. That gun task force or gun operation
4 that we're doing, and gun interdiction, the
5 Troopers may in fact -- may not be anywhere
6 near New York City. But the guns they're
7 investigating, the destination is New York
8 City.
9 So that's a lot of -- a fair piece of
10 what we're doing as well. But we --
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: That's a
12 perfect -- yes, go ahead, sorry.
13 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Yes, there are
14 things we've done in the city in a uniformed
15 basis, but I can't tell you -- I can't stress
16 enough the Governor has said not to duplicate
17 efforts.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Great.
19 So on a very similar topic, what role
20 is your department taking in investigating
21 and following up on a growing trend in human
22 trafficking that appears to be going up and
23 down the Thruway from different parts of the
24 state, movement of people brought into the
475
1 country at Kennedy and then human trafficked
2 through Long Island, through upstate
3 New York. I am told by my colleague in
4 Syracuse, Pam Hunter, that Syracuse is a
5 center of sort of human trafficking
6 intersections going north, south, east, west.
7 There were definitely reports of
8 growth in this serious problem during the
9 pandemic. Is there a role that the
10 State Troopers have been playing to try to
11 capture the people involved in human
12 trafficking?
13 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Yes. Those
14 cases develop either from, you know, local
15 intelligence, one-off arrests where the
16 Troopers or the local police interview the
17 people involved.
18 And they can lead to very significant
19 cases. That's one of the resources that the
20 NYSIC is involved with, and some of the
21 commitments that we've talked about in terms
22 of additional tools -- cryptocurrency
23 detection and the cellphone capabilities of
24 analyzing that.
476
1 Cryptocurrency and cellphones go with
2 every major crime, organized crime function
3 that currently exists, from drugs, gun
4 trafficking and human trafficking. So that
5 capability is going to explode and ramp up.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. I
7 look forward to learning more about that.
8 At the time the state passed its
9 "Enough Is Enough" legislation to try to
10 address the growth in campus sexual assaults,
11 there was supposedly the creation of a campus
12 sexual assault victims unit within
13 State Police, with a funding allocation of
14 $4 million for that unit.
15 Does that unit exist? And are we
16 spending $4 million, and how is that going?
17 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Yes, that unit
18 exists and was at one time fully staffed.
19 But like every aspect of my agency, it's been
20 impacted by my dramatic drop in Troopers.
21 I'm at 10-year staffing lows, or close to it.
22 I do think these next three classes --
23 the one that's in there in the academy right
24 now, and the two that are proposed in the
477
1 budget -- will start to allow us to get back
2 up to being fully staffed.
3 But that is one place the BCI --
4 that's a BCI function, and that's a place
5 that I've had to slow the fill. Because if
6 you take -- you get BCI members by promoting
7 uniformed Troopers. And then if you've taken
8 the uniformed Troopers off the road, there's
9 nobody to respond to radio, you know, calls
10 and 911 calls.
11 So we're in that delicate spot of I've
12 got a lot of great Troopers who are ready to
13 be promoted to investigator and take on some
14 of those roles and work in what we call a
15 backroom, which is like a precinct detective
16 unit. They're ready to go, but I need people
17 out the door.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
19 much.
20 I'm going to not need my -- the rest
21 of my time, Assemblywoman Weinstein.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay, so we'll
23 go to Assemblyman Reilly, three minutes.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: Thank you,
478
1 Madam Chair.
2 Hi, Superintendent. Thank you for
3 joining us.
4 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Thank you.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: I wanted to talk
6 to you on what we spoke about last year
7 during the budget season -- and I was happy
8 to hear that you mentioned it earlier, of
9 course, the ARIDE and the DREs. And I'm glad
10 that you're going forward, everybody -- all
11 the Troopers are being trained for ARIDE,
12 which is an enormous task, and I thank you
13 for that.
14 Being that in last year's budget we
15 allocated an additional $10 million for DRE
16 training, have we seen any turnkey with that
17 in the State Police?
18 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: We are up over
19 100 DREs, which is significant.
20 You know, the real drag -- and I think
21 we talked about this last time -- is there's
22 only so much training capacity in the nation
23 for DRE training, due to the complexity of it
24 and the nature of it, and how advanced that
479
1 Trooper or police officer has to be in order
2 to get into the training.
3 But we're increasing it, and we're
4 over 100. And I think we're shooting for a
5 number that's over 110. And I would like to
6 get there.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: Awesome. Thank
8 you. And I thank my colleagues for actually
9 pushing for that in the budget and making it
10 happen. So thank you.
11 One thing I want to touch on with the
12 gun violence, with the shootings, especially
13 in New York City. Raise the Age seems to be
14 a point of contention with the 16- and
15 17-year-olds that are armed with a loaded
16 firearm. Currently that case would go to
17 Family Court because it wouldn't fit under
18 the exception where it could stay in Youth
19 Part Criminal.
20 So right now we're trying to push for
21 getting that part of the Raise the Age
22 changed to allow loaded firearms to proceed
23 in youth part. Do you know how many firearms
24 the New York State Police have recovered from
480
1 those under 18 years old?
2 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: I do not. I do
3 not have that number. We can get it.
4 I would say that it is probably
5 significantly lower than NYPD's number. They
6 have a different operating environment than
7 we do.
8 But I can have someone provide that
9 number to you.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: Yeah, if we can
11 get the state one. I have --
12 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Well, remember,
13 there would be two different numbers. One
14 would be a statewide number outside of the
15 City of New York, and one would be our
16 internal number, how many have we done. So
17 there would be two different numbers.
18 DCJS would probably have the -- well,
19 we could -- we'll find both numbers for you.
20 But I want to emphasize that, you know, the
21 State Police would have one number and that
22 that would be subsumed into the greater
23 number, which is how many outside the City of
24 New York.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: Yeah, for all
2 jurisdictions besides the State Police. I
3 get it, yeah.
4 So like in New York City we had -- in
5 2020 there were 411 arrests for under 18, and
6 in 2021, 536. So I want to see what that
7 comparison is, and I think that's a tool that
8 really needs to be used.
9 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: No doubt that
10 gun arrests and the numbers have been
11 skyrocketing.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: Thank you,
13 Mr. Superintendent, I appreciate it.
14 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Thank you, sir.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
16 I think now we're back to Senator
17 Diane Savino, who's returned.
18 SENATOR SAVINO: Thank you. Sorry, I
19 was on a phone call, I didn't hear you guys
20 calling me.
21 Good to see you, Superintendent.
22 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Good to see
23 you.
24 SENATOR SAVINO: I'm not going to
482
1 touch on some of the issues that have already
2 been raised. I'm happy to hear you guys are
3 focusing on computer crimes and cyber crimes.
4 They are certainly becoming a much more
5 complicated problem.
6 I do want to ask you about the issue
7 of cannabis. As you know, we legalized
8 cannabis for adult use, we expanded medical,
9 we have a thriving hemp program that's
10 operational. But there seems to be, out
11 there in the general public, this idea that
12 because we decriminalized marijuana for
13 personal use, that you could have up to
14 3 ounces for personal use, that you could
15 pretty much do whatever you want.
16 And no one seems to be enforcing this
17 statute that you're not allowed to sell
18 marijuana in the state yet. Anybody that
19 doesn't have a license to sell is operating
20 outside of the law. And yet and still, we
21 have people flouting the law all over the
22 place. They're setting up cannabis shops,
23 they're operating stores, they have mobile
24 vans, they're driving around Manhattan, and
483
1 nobody seems to be enforcing the law.
2 So -- and it upsets me only because if
3 we're going to set up a legal regulated
4 system where we're going to have licenses
5 issued and we're going to expect people that
6 we regulate to play by the rules, how is that
7 going to work if people are openly, you know,
8 violating the law and nobody's doing anything
9 to stop it? Not the State Police, not the
10 NYPD, no local government. Nobody's doing
11 anything to stop this, and I'm just baffled
12 as to why.
13 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Well, we
14 continue to enforce marijuana penal laws as
15 they exist, and continue to make arrests
16 related to marijuana trafficking.
17 To the extent that something was
18 regulatory in nature, unlike the NYPD, I
19 don't have the authority to enforce
20 non-criminal regulatory laws. I must --
21 SENATOR SAVINO: I understand that.
22 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: -- only
23 criminal laws. And we continue to do it,
24 obviously, though, we're not arresting for,
484
1 you know, small amounts of marijuana because
2 it's no longer a crime.
3 SENATOR SAVINO: So not to interrupt
4 you -- because I only have a few seconds
5 left -- so the other day the Albany Times
6 Union wrote a restaurant review of a local
7 restaurant that is getting into the cannabis
8 business now.
9 And instead of charging people for the
10 cannabis products, they're giving them away:
11 Come into our restaurant, pay a fee and we'll
12 serve you food and then we'll give you
13 cannabis products. And they don't seem to
14 have any concern about having this widely
15 advertised.
16 Now, would you say that that's
17 something your office or the State Police
18 should notify this restaurant, that they are
19 in violation of existing law because you
20 can't give or sell marijuana yet legally in
21 the State of New York without a license? Or
22 should the Albany police do it? Or what role
23 do you think you should play in enforcing
24 this law so that we don't have a system where
485
1 people are just doing what they want?
2 Because otherwise it doesn't make any
3 sense for us to create a regulatory structure
4 if we're just going to let people do whatever
5 the hell they want.
6 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: I have to fall
7 back on the fact that I can't enforce civil
8 regulations.
9 So to the extent they violate the
10 Penal Law, and to the extent that was a
11 violation, a crime, to set up your own shop
12 and that was a violation -- I mean a
13 misdemeanor or a crime, you know, we would be
14 able to enforce it.
15 But to the extent that it's a
16 violation of regulations and it's civil in
17 nature, I don't have that power, based on the
18 way the Executive Law is written and about
19 the jurisdiction of the State Police.
20 Local town, villages, the NYPD can
21 enforce their city codes and enforce other
22 kind of regulatory schemes, and I don't have
23 that ability.
24 SENATOR SAVINO: I would just suggest
486
1 we might want to rethink that.
2 I don't have any more time. I'm happy
3 to talk about it offline with you at some
4 point.
5 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Sure.
6 SENATOR SAVINO: Thank you.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And just for the
8 record, as the I guess lead sponsor of the
9 marijuana legalization bill, I completely
10 agree with Senator Savino.
11 This is not legal. They were never
12 intended to be allowed to give away cannabis
13 as a freebie with very expensive food or in
14 some places very expensive T-shirts that come
15 with free cannabis.
16 And I know that the Office of Cannabis
17 Management has told me that they are
18 exploring also how they insert themselves to
19 stop this from happening. So hopefully they
20 will reach out to you, Superintendent, and
21 somehow we all can coordinate. Because yes,
22 we wanted cannabis use to be out of the
23 criminal justice system as much as possible,
24 but it's the same issue. We have liquor
487
1 laws, and you can't sell liquor illegally.
2 And we want to have the same approach with
3 cannabis. So thank you.
4 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And now back to
6 Assemblymember Weinstein.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We next have
8 Assemblywoman Rajkumar up, for three minutes.
9 Thank you.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN RAJKUMAR: Thank you,
11 Madam Chair Weinstein.
12 Good evening, Superintendent.
13 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Good evening.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN RAJKUMAR: Our state and
15 our entire country has seen an uptick in hate
16 crimes recently, particularly directed
17 towards the Asian-American community. The
18 NYPD reported that New York City actually had
19 a 100 percent increase in hate crimes in one
20 year. This included a 361 percent increase
21 in anti-Asian hate crimes. And last summer,
22 one individual in Queens was arrested for
23 four separate hate crimes against people of
24 Asian descent. This included assaulting a
488
1 75-year-old woman with a hammer.
2 Last summer in my South Queens
3 District there was a string of crimes
4 targeted at Muslim Americans. And just a few
5 weeks ago, on January 3rd, there was an
6 attack on a Sikh American taxi driver at JFK
7 Airport, one of many completely unacceptable
8 hate crimes against the Sikh American
9 community.
10 In her State of the State address the
11 Governor included a proposal to combat hate
12 crimes through a new hate and bias prevention
13 unit. The State Police runs the Hate Crimes
14 Task Force, so I wanted to ask you what your
15 division will do to stem this tide of hate
16 crimes and what resources you may need, and
17 how can we help?
18 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: I think you're
19 already helping by getting my staffing back
20 up to acceptable levels. A lot of these
21 things require people.
22 Even without the increase in staffing,
23 I've doubled our commitment to the NYPD's
24 hate crime unit, which we're part of, and
489
1 we've also got our hate crime unit up and
2 running. That provides active support to
3 incidents that occur upstate, mainly upstate.
4 We'll either take the case over or work
5 discrete leads.
6 We also have -- a big part of that is
7 an education and support training program for
8 other -- for local agencies. While COVID did
9 not disrupt most police operations, it did
10 put a crimp in in-person training, which this
11 hate crimes training is in-person training.
12 But we're ramping that back up and hope to be
13 looking at that -- be expanding that back up.
14 The increase in anti-Asian hate crime
15 in the city is extremely concerning.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN RAJKUMAR: What have
17 been some of the greatest challenges that
18 you've seen in stemming the tide of hate
19 crimes against this community?
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: That's --
21 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: I'm sorry?
22 (Off-camera interruption.)
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN RAJKUMAR: I'm saying
24 what are some of the greatest challenges --
490
1 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Well, some of
2 the challenges are what they are, which is,
3 you know, policing in this age is difficult,
4 getting cooperation from communities that may
5 or may not, you know, trust the police.
6 We have not seen a huge barrier
7 upstate to that. By and large we've had very
8 good relationships with -- the State Police
9 have, with Muslim communities and Asian
10 communities upstate. So we're continuing to
11 work hard and do what we can in terms of
12 training support and apprehension of these
13 folks.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN RAJKUMAR: Thank you.
15 Please let me know what I can do to help
16 bridge any cultural sensitivity gaps with the
17 communities. And thank you for all of your
18 work.
19 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Thank you.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
21 Senator Brad Hoylman.
22 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you,
23 Madam Chair.
24 Good evening, Superintendent. I just
491
1 had a couple of quick questions about the
2 budget and gun tracing.
3 I see that there's $6.2 million to
4 support expansion of the gun tracing teams,
5 and there is a Gun Tracing Task Force that
6 the Governor is convening. Are you and your
7 organization going to have a role in that?
8 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: That is -- yes,
9 the Governor's directed that we do that. A
10 meeting is occurring tomorrow and is with
11 State Police and state fusion center folks
12 from around the Northeast, as far away as
13 Ohio.
14 That's an interstate group to look at
15 trafficking, leveraging some new techniques,
16 and leveraging -- I have to compliment the
17 ATF and the person who runs the ATF in
18 New York State. They have been, in my mind,
19 a game-changer in terms of providing
20 information, support and data for us to
21 exploit and analyze. And a lot of that money
22 that we're -- that's coming to the State
23 Police is going to come with folks to analyze
24 information that's been provided by the ATF,
492
1 raw information, and then lead to, you know,
2 the criminal-side cases that we're going to
3 be doing.
4 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you.
5 I just wanted to bring your attention
6 to -- and I'm sure you're familiar with --
7 microstamping technology such as the case in
8 California where guns are required to have a
9 stamp on the firing pin that leaves like a
10 serial number on the spent shell casings so
11 you can connect the shells you recover at a
12 crime scene to a particular gun.
13 We carry -- I carry legislation with
14 Assemblymember Linda Rosenthal in connection
15 with that.
16 Do you have any thoughts on gun
17 tracing technology and how it might be useful
18 for this task force?
19 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Well, there are
20 kind of two different concepts. There's the
21 serial number tracing, which is point of
22 sale, and then there's identification of two
23 bits of evidence, either the shell casing or
24 the lead, and tying that back to the gun.
493
1 That technology is fairly robust.
2 Experts can generally identify, due to
3 machine marks on the expended casing, that a
4 particular casing has come from a gun.
5 The thing we're looking to develop is
6 more on the lines of the flow -- what we're
7 doing now is more this flow of guns through
8 interstate trafficking and also tying them to
9 prior crimes by what you're talking about,
10 expended or recovered shell casings and tying
11 that back to the gun.
12 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you very much.
13 One final quick question. What do you
14 think about the feasibility of Mayor
15 Adams' idea of doing spot-checks for people
16 bringing guns into New York City?
17 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: You know, I
18 don't wish to express too many opinions. But
19 searches that the State Police conduct have
20 to always be in full harmony with the Fourth
21 Amendment. And if you're coming into
22 transportation infrastructure or getting on
23 an airplane or getting on a train or coming
24 into a public building, you may be subject to
494
1 searches or magnetometers.
2 If you're out on the street or driving
3 your car, the rules are much more stringent
4 in terms of what amounts to probable cause to
5 stop and search somebody.
6 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you for that.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
8 I believe the Senate is now done.
9 We're handing it over to the Assembly.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We have
11 Assemblyman Burdick, then Assemblyman
12 Walczyk, and then Assemblyman Palmesano, if
13 no one else raises.
14 So Chris, you're up.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you, Chair
16 Weinstein. I appreciate it.
17 And Superintendent, thank you very
18 much for the work that you do and the women
19 and men who every day do such an outstanding
20 job in their duties.
21 I represent eight towns in
22 Westchester County, each of course with their
23 own local law enforcement agencies. And
24 could you describe the relationship between
495
1 the State Police and local law enforcement,
2 meaning what shared services are there, what
3 programs, training, and so forth? Can you
4 delve into that a little bit?
5 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Well, we have a
6 relationship with all the police agencies in
7 Westchester County. And it varies
8 depending -- and in other parts of the state.
9 And it varies based on the department.
10 Some departments upstate are --
11 contain two or three part-time police
12 officers, so our relationship with them would
13 be very different. We would come in and
14 handle all their investigative work and all
15 their major crimes.
16 In the case of Westchester County
17 towns, who have a fully functioning,
18 full-staffed department, it may be that we're
19 working cases jointly, we're working a
20 particular problem area together.
21 In some areas that are heavily
22 policed, we -- our relationship would be
23 different in terms of providing investigative
24 support. We may be more on the highway in
496
1 certain spots of Westchester County, doing
2 commercial vehicle enforcement or other
3 things.
4 But frequently what happens in
5 Westchester County is something happens and
6 multiple agencies respond. And we've
7 assisted all those departments, and they've
8 assisted us in apprehending bad actors.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: And can you tell
10 me, do you feel -- and obviously I think
11 we're all concerned about staffing levels and
12 we're delighted to see that we're on our way
13 to trying to rectify that in terms of
14 appropriations.
15 But have there been instances in which
16 it's been difficult for you to have the
17 personnel in order to respond to requests for
18 assistance? And I'm not speaking so much
19 about an emergency situation, which you'd
20 find the resources to do it, but in
21 situations which were less dire.
22 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: There's no
23 doubt about it. It's happening every day.
24 I'm concerned about burnout on
497
1 Troopers who are in on overtime. The COVID
2 response was a massive undertaking by this
3 agency -- staffing locations, testing
4 locations, the Javits Center, upstate
5 locations, in addition to doing our ordinary
6 jobs.
7 I've already indicated the CSAVU unit,
8 you know, is suffering from people --
9 there -- our backrooms are -- my main-line
10 detective units are understaffed right now
11 but still have the same number of cases. You
12 know, it's hurting.
13 And you have done what you can do,
14 which is allocate money in the budget -- or
15 hopefully will allocate money in the budget
16 for two new classes.
17 The one thing I can say about State
18 Troopers is they can't be made in two months.
19 It's a long process, and so -- it's a long
20 process and a process that has to be planned
21 out, you know, years in advance. They just
22 don't -- I just can't hire them right off the
23 street. It takes a long time to train them.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you very
498
1 much. Appreciate it.
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
3 We now go to Assemblyman Walczyk.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Thank you,
5 Chairwoman.
6 Superintendent Bruen, thank you for
7 joining us today. You spent time in the
8 district attorney's office, lots of time with
9 the Troopers, spent some time over at the
10 Department of Corrections. Welcome. I think
11 that is very relevant experience that is
12 going to do great things, I hope, for the
13 New York State Police.
14 Earlier one of the members brought up
15 the old CoBIS program, which required us to
16 fire projectiles out of every single weapon
17 that got sold in the State of New York. It
18 was ongoing for a while -- I think it was the
19 Pataki administration that originally had put
20 it in. That this was going to be the, you
21 know, gun DNA that would be such a great
22 solver of crimes for New York. And that ran
23 for a while, I think until after 2010, maybe
24 '11 or '12, and was shut down.
499
1 Do you remember how many crimes that
2 CoBIS program, the gun DNA solved in the
3 State of New York?
4 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Yes, I do. It
5 was quite expensive, and the answer is it
6 solved no crimes.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: I'm sorry, it
8 was very expensive and not a single crime?
9 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Not a single
10 crime was solved with it.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Not even one
12 crime in the State of New York.
13 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: No.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: All right.
15 Well, thank you very much, Superintendent.
16 Now that you're out of the Department
17 of Corrections, what do you think about the
18 Secure Vendor Program over there? Can we get
19 it done?
20 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: I will say
21 this, that I think it's wonderful that Tony's
22 getting the commissioner -- is going to be
23 the full-time commissioner and confirmed. I
24 think that's spectacular. And I will keep my
500
1 opinions to myself.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: (Laughing.) Is
3 it the lawsuits that are the main deterrent
4 over there, is why we don't get the Secure
5 Vendor Program done? Or what do you think it
6 is?
7 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: I -- like I
8 say, I keep my opinions to myself.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: That's fair. I
10 will --
11 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: I will say
12 this, that it's my honor to be superintendent
13 and the State Police have done way for me for
14 me than I will ever do for the State Police,
15 I can tell you that.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Well, good deal.
17 It's exciting to have you. Thank you for the
18 time.
19 And I will yield back the rest of it,
20 Madam Chairwoman.
21 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Thank you.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay, I see
23 that Senator O'Mara has raised --
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes, I see
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1 Senator O'Mara snuck in there very --
2 (Overtalk.)
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I'll send it
4 back to the Senate.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: All right, thank
6 you.
7 So Ranking Member Senator Tom O'Mara.
8 SENATOR O'MARA: Yes, thank you. I
9 snuck in at the end.
10 Sorry, Superintendent, to prolong this
11 any more. But a few questions about the hate
12 crimes, which is, you know, obviously a very
13 growing concern -- my -- my video was stopped
14 by -- I don't know, the host? Okay. There
15 it goes. I'm back on. I don't know why they
16 cut me off. I think I'm dressed
17 appropriately.
18 But on the hate crimes and the
19 reporting of hate crimes, there has been an
20 effort in my district to encourage the
21 reporting of hate crimes. And there was an
22 entity, a large business in my district that
23 was interested in promoting this, and they
24 did some investigating, some research on
502
1 their own and asked my office to look into
2 it, and kind of hit a brick wall on what
3 exactly is being done with the reporting of
4 hate crimes. And there really didn't seem to
5 be any kind of funnel, so to speak, on what
6 either local law enforcement entities did
7 with that or how people could go directly to
8 the State Police too, because there is
9 something for the State Police on a hate
10 crimes reporting system.
11 So where does that stand? And are we
12 making use of that? Because, you know, we
13 certainly have these crimes -- I'm a very
14 rural upstate New York district. These are
15 not just New York City or larger-city issues.
16 Where we have individuals that want to be
17 more proactive on this, to highlight this,
18 you know, where do I send them? Or how do we
19 better coordinate this?
20 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Well, I'm not
21 exactly sure what the issue is. If somebody
22 is reporting a crime, they should call 911.
23 If they want to come to the State Police
24 barracks in their communities, whether it's
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1 --
2 SENATOR O'MARA: It's not about
3 reporting crimes in progress, it's about
4 incidents that were likely hate-related,
5 after the fact. Maybe nobody made a report
6 about it.
7 You know, how does that -- how can
8 that kind of thing be followed up on?
9 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Well, I would
10 say that that's the same -- it's not
11 necessarily a crime in progress, but you go
12 and report it to a State Trooper and we'll do
13 follow-up investigation on it.
14 If we can't develop suspects, which
15 sometimes happens in these things -- for
16 example, you know, graffiti left on a park
17 bench or on a road sign, that -- you know, a
18 swastika -- it can be very hard to figure
19 that out. We've managed to figure out, in
20 some cases, when someone finally told us who
21 it was, you know, when they've done it on a
22 number of occasions.
23 But for the most part, that's the way
24 it should operate, are the Elmira Police
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1 Department, in your case, the sheriff's
2 department, or my Troop E folks should pick
3 up that case, run it down, and investigate
4 it. And then do the reporting that's
5 necessary up through DCJS for a hate crime.
6 SENATOR O'MARA: Well, I can tell you
7 that we kind of ran down those lines a little
8 bit and there was no real coordination, it
9 seemed. And even reaching out to the
10 State Police and to DCJS on where this whole
11 hate crimes reporting system stood, we were
12 just unable to get a clear answer.
13 So I don't know, maybe I should touch
14 base with you further on getting an actual --
15 (Overtalk.)
16 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Yeah, I'd be
17 willing to look into that and discuss that
18 with the commissioner of DCJS. Generally
19 speaking, I don't produce those sorts of
20 reports, but I would be a submitting agency
21 to DCJS.
22 I can certainly also refer to my major
23 in Troop E, Major Staniszewski, and have him
24 follow up on what's going on in that area
505
1 vis-a-vis hate crimes, do we feel that it's a
2 sufficiently coordinated response. I know
3 the sheriff and the chief out there I'm sure
4 would be willing to look into it as well.
5 And I'm sure there are other village police
6 departments beyond Elmira and Horseheads and
7 what have you.
8 SENATOR O'MARA: Yes. Yeah,
9 absolutely. So thank you, I appreciate that.
10 I look forward to working further with
11 the coordination of these agencies. So thank
12 you.
13 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Any time.
14 Thank you.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: All right. Do
16 you have any more, Assemblywoman?
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes, we still
18 have Assemblyman Palmesano, with our final
19 three minutes, our final questioner.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: First,
21 Superintendent, I just wanted to say thank
22 you to you and the brave men and women of the
23 State Police for the dangerous job they all
24 do each and every day to keep us safe in our
506
1 communities, especially in light of the
2 rising and dangerous crimes and violence
3 we're seeing in our cities and communities
4 all across New York State.
5 So first and foremost, I wanted to say
6 thank you to you and, again, the brave men
7 and women of the State Police for what they
8 do for us. So thank you.
9 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Thank you.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: I just have
11 one question, and it really stems around the
12 issue of the legalization of marijuana.
13 I was opposed to the recreational use
14 of marijuana and passing that. I had spoken
15 to local law enforcement before this, spoken
16 to local social services agencies and
17 substance abuse agencies, and some of the
18 things they brought up over and over again
19 was the increased -- concerns regarding
20 increased drug use associated with other
21 drugs. Certainly point out the fact that it
22 certainly could lead to more increased
23 illegal and black market sales of marijuana
24 and also lead to other crimes, the cost to
507
1 our communities, but particularly the issue
2 of safety.
3 And I was wondering, do you have any
4 statistics relative to the percentage of guns
5 and victims and crimes that are associated
6 with the illegal or illicit sale of marijuana
7 and how that might be -- is there any
8 association with that that you could share
9 with us on how those crimes might be
10 associated with that relative to guns and
11 violence and victims?
12 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: We -- we
13 certainly have made arrests in the past year
14 where large amounts of marijuana were present
15 with other drugs and guns. I don't know as
16 my -- the Division of State Police numbers on
17 that issue would be dispositive, since we
18 don't track arrest numbers apart from our own
19 agency.
20 So I can certainly make -- you know,
21 have our analysts look and see, you know,
22 what we could find for the last year in terms
23 of that, but I don't have that specifically
24 broken down right in front of me.
508
1 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: I'd certainly
2 like that information, because I really just
3 think the point I'm trying to get at is, you
4 know, not everyone thinks, you know, this is
5 a positive -- many people think that this is
6 a positive thing, the recreational use of
7 marijuana. But, you know, the concerns that
8 were brought up before we passed this and
9 made this the law of New York, which I
10 understand the ramifications of that that
11 were brought up by law enforcement and others
12 about -- with the passage of this and are we
13 seeing that increase in percentage of guns
14 being involved in crimes, more victims, and
15 more dangerous crimes taking place relative
16 to this, you know, black market, illegal sale
17 of marijuana.
18 So yeah, it would be good to have,
19 because I think that's something we should be
20 paying attention to.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
22 And I'm going to throw it back to --
23 Senator Krueger, I believe we have exhausted
24 all of the questioners for the
509
1 superintendent.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Perhaps we've
3 literally exhausted them, but I don't know
4 about that.
5 So I want to thank you very much,
6 Superintendent. And we also, all of us,
7 appreciate the hard work of the men and women
8 of the State Police. So we just pass our
9 appreciation back, and excuse you for the
10 rest of the day. Thank you.
11 SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN: Thank you. And
12 I will definitely pass on all your good
13 wishes to the Troopers. Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. And I
15 am going to -- just for a little variation in
16 topic, I will now be calling up, from the New
17 York State Office of Information Technology
18 Services, the interim CIO and director,
19 Angelo Riddick.
20 Angelo, are you here with us?
21 INTERIM CIO RIDDICK: I certainly am.
22 Good afternoon.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I think it's
24 evening by now. Good evening.
510
1 (Laughter.)
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: All right, so I
3 think you know the rhythm of these hearings.
4 We have your written testimony, as does the
5 public. We'd like you to summarize in
6 10 minutes or less the major themes of your
7 testimony.
8 INTERIM CIO RIDDICK: Absolutely.
9 Thank you, Chairs Krueger and Weinstein and
10 distinguished members of the State
11 Legislature. It is the honor of a lifetime
12 to partner with you during this pivotal
13 moment in history.
14 I am Angelo "Tony" Riddick, New York's
15 chief information officer and director of the
16 state's Office of Information Technology
17 Services.
18 For the last 22 months, ITS has been
19 at the forefront of the state's COVID
20 response. I've had the honor and challenge
21 of being on the job for 14 of those
22 22 months.
23 We enabled fully remote and then
24 hybrid work for tens of thousands of state
511
1 employees, rapidly built applications and
2 revamped state websites, and provided the
3 tools that allowed New York to ensure
4 uninterrupted services during a pandemic.
5 ITS created the vaccine scheduling
6 system and the state's return-to-work portal
7 to safely bring workers back to their
8 offices.
9 We offered 24/7 support for the mass
10 testing and vaxx sites, and provided the
11 necessary upgrades to support online meetings
12 and virtual government.
13 And we worked with our partners in the
14 public and private sectors to build the
15 Excelsior Pass platform, becoming the first
16 state in the nation to offer digital proof of
17 a COVID vaccine.
18 In fact, we recently partnered with
19 the federal government and our friends at the
20 Division of Veterans Services and the
21 Department of Health to extend the Excelsior
22 Pass to veterans who received their COVID
23 shots at a VA facility. This information was
24 once outside the state's jurisdiction and
512
1 could not be included in our immunization
2 databases. Now, hundreds of thousands of
3 New York veterans are able to access the
4 Excelsior Pass so they can share proof of
5 immunization and be easily welcomed into
6 businesses and venues across the state.
7 As a 30-year active-duty veteran who
8 was vaccinated at the VA, I cannot thank
9 Governor Hochul enough for her leadership and
10 commitment to getting this done.
11 So often in the last two years, when
12 New York was challenged in new and varied
13 ways, ITS was there with the solution. And
14 while a number of long-term modernization
15 projects were already underway in March 2020,
16 the pandemic forced our state government to
17 continuously pivot and adapt.
18 Now that we've entered a new phase, we
19 are leaning forward and working to cement the
20 progress that has already been made. The
21 truth is there are countless opportunities to
22 be smarter, better and more agile.
23 We are focused on accelerating
24 modernization projects at multiple state
513
1 agencies, and understanding which solutions
2 can help bridge the gap while we move to
3 retire legacy technology.
4 We have enhanced our support model to
5 give more state employees the ability to work
6 remotely, so they can better support their
7 agencies and more quickly and confidently
8 respond to the next crisis.
9 As a state, we should be embracing
10 technology as a solution -- not only in times
11 of crisis, but also in times of calm. We
12 know technology can support processes and
13 help government operate more efficiently, and
14 it can provide greater access to many more
15 New Yorkers. Digital enhancements are
16 ongoing and will continue to improve citizen
17 interactions with their state government.
18 New tools are helping state agencies
19 and their hardworking employees deliver
20 faster results for all New Yorkers.
21 And right now our agency is
22 implementing the technology to support a new
23 law, which originated right here in the
24 Legislature, that will require state agency
514
1 websites to be accessible in each of the
2 12 most commonly spoken non-English
3 languages. We have procured the necessary
4 language translation tools and, following
5 additional testing and configuration work,
6 expect to deploy this new technology on time
7 and to the benefit of many more New Yorkers.
8 We know technology can provide a
9 lifeline to families in difficult times.
10 During the height of the pandemic, ITS
11 utilized technology to assist the Department
12 of Labor in clearing their unemployment
13 insurance backlog and delivering benefits to
14 families in need.
15 We know technology can even help
16 provide enhanced cyber-protection for the
17 state's network and its data. And that
18 brings me to cybersecurity, which is fast
19 becoming the defining IT issue of our time.
20 No agency is better prepared or better
21 positioned than ITS to tackle this diverse
22 set of cyber challenges. We start by taking
23 every threat seriously. We have endpoint
24 detection tools already in place which
515
1 provide an extra layer of protection against
2 intrusion, and in the coming year we will
3 work with our partners at the local level to
4 extend these protections.
5 We have top-notch security
6 professionals who monitor the state's network
7 and global threat landscape all day, every
8 day. Prior to coming to New York I had
9 extensive experience with the Army's Cyber
10 Command and taught cybersecurity courses at
11 the National Defense University, and yet I
12 have never seen more attempted attacks than
13 we are seeing today.
14 I urge you to join us in making this a
15 priority now. To fight this new cyber war,
16 we need more resources, we need more people
17 and new recruiting techniques, and we need
18 better intelligence-sharing at all levels of
19 government. I am pleased to say Governor
20 Hochul's budget achieves all of this and
21 more.
22 The Executive Budget funds Year 1 of a
23 multiyear investment that will allow the
24 state to establish a strong "Zero Trust"
516
1 framework. "Zero Trust" means everything we
2 do is secure and there are checks and
3 balances on every device, every transaction,
4 and every request for access. This will
5 better protect the state's data from
6 intrusion or attack.
7 If this budget is approved, we will
8 use a portion of the new funding to enhance
9 our Red Team, a group that tests security
10 across executive agencies by identifying and
11 launching attacks in a controlled
12 environment. They are critical to the
13 state's readiness to respond to a real
14 threat.
15 The Executive Budget also recommends
16 new cyber resources to provide local
17 governments with expert strategic assistance
18 and security solutions to mitigate ransomware
19 attacks so they can better protect their own
20 assets. I thank Governor Hochul for her
21 leadership on this important issue and know
22 it will allow us to make a strong statement
23 to the world that New York State takes
24 cybersecurity very seriously.
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1 Thank you for your service, leadership
2 and commitment to the State of New York. I
3 am happy to take any questions you may have.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
5 much, Commissioner.
6 And I believe that the first
7 questioner will be Senator Diane Savino, our
8 chair of Technology and all those topics that
9 committee is covering.
10 SENATOR SAVINO: Internet and
11 technology. Thank you, Senator Krueger.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
13 much, Diane.
14 SENATOR SAVINO: Commissioner, it's
15 good to see you again. I think the last time
16 we saw each other was in early 2020, at the
17 budget hearing then.
18 INTERIM CIO RIDDICK: Absolutely.
19 SENATOR SAVINO: You were just barely
20 days on the job, not really -- I remember we
21 met in my office and we talked about your
22 extensive history and how you would be an
23 amazing asset, not really understanding just
24 how important your experience would be as the
518
1 state was about to shut down and go
2 completely virtual.
3 Thank God you were part of the team;
4 otherwise, I'm not really sure we would have
5 been able to transition to a virtual
6 workforce either on the state side or with
7 local governments.
8 INTERIM CIO RIDDICK: Thank you very
9 much.
10 SENATOR SAVINO: I want to talk a bit
11 about, though, the area that you and I spoke
12 about that day and you are an absolute expert
13 on, and that of course is the issue of
14 cybersecurity and the threats, which as you
15 point out is really the threat of our
16 lifetime right now.
17 We confirmed earlier today Jackie Bray
18 as the new DHSES commissioner, and we talked
19 with her yesterday about the role that
20 homeland security plays with it. We also
21 spoke to the State Police and the role that
22 they play.
23 But we've had somewhat of a haphazard
24 approach in this state of who's really
519
1 responsible. And I'm happy to see you're
2 playing a bigger role certainly with the
3 state agencies. The threats that we're
4 seeing during the pandemic -- school
5 districts being hacked on a regular basis,
6 small local governments under attack
7 constantly. And I know that there are
8 limited resources and there have been up
9 until now.
10 So I just want to ask a bit about what
11 the Governor's proposing in her budget where
12 she's talking about the hiring of an
13 additional 248 people on your Red Team. And
14 also in the infrastructure bill that was
15 passed in Washington, there was $2 billion
16 set aside for states to apply for
17 cybersecurity grants to enhance their
18 protection.
19 So I'm wondering, are we going to use
20 this -- are these 248 people, are they going
21 to be part of the team to help local
22 governments and school districts, et cetera,
23 become more responsive and protect themselves
24 better? And were we able to apply for any of
520
1 that infrastructure money?
2 INTERIM CIO RIDDICK: As I understand
3 it, we're working on applying for that
4 infrastructure money. Unfortunately, I don't
5 have visibility on that process. But I can
6 assure you -- and thanks for meeting with me
7 last year -- that absolutely cybersecurity is
8 a priority.
9 As a matter of fact, after we met, I
10 worked with my team to develop our strategic
11 plan, and the number-one priority was and
12 remains cybersecurity.
13 The increase in the budget will allow
14 us to hire a number of technicians, some of
15 which will be working specifically cyber, as
16 we look to a whole-of-state approach outside
17 of just the state's infrastructure. But as
18 we look to work with local governments, we
19 have to help with ensuring that that
20 infrastructure is also secure.
21 There are a number of methods that we
22 can use, and my team is looking very deeply
23 at the methodology that we have to use to get
24 these people on board quickly. And yes,
521
1 personnel are a priority and cyber will be
2 inside of that priority stack. Thank you. I
3 think that's a great question.
4 SENATOR SAVINO: So also because we're
5 a home-rule state and we allow localities and
6 school districts and, you know, villages to
7 make their own decisions and purchase their
8 own equipment, there seems to not necessarily
9 be a cohesive approach to this.
10 Do you have any recommendations, as a
11 person who's an expert in this, about the way
12 we currently handle issues like technology
13 purchases and software purchases? Should we
14 allow that type of, I guess, autonomy because
15 of the inherent risks of cyber leaks?
16 INTERIM CIO RIDDICK: I support that
17 autonomy, and I think that's a great
18 question, thank you.
19 I support the autonomy, but we need to
20 partner with these local governments to make
21 sure that they have the resources that they
22 need, including tools and the sophistication
23 to delivering cyber solutions to their own
24 internal infrastructure.
522
1 SENATOR SAVINO: And finally, because
2 I know there's a lot of people that have
3 questions, the State of Pennsylvania two days
4 ago passed a bill -- I'm not sure if the
5 governor is going to sign it, though -- that
6 would ban the payment of ransomware attacks
7 from government funds.
8 I introduced a bill last year that
9 would essentially do the same thing. It was
10 a little controversial, but it's reflecting
11 how challenging it is for us to deal with
12 ransomware attacks. You know, when we reach
13 out to either, you know, the FBI or the
14 Justice Department, their response to
15 policymakers is not to pay them. Because
16 ransomware -- first of all, you're never
17 going to get your data back anyway. It's
18 just costing taxpayers an extraordinary
19 amount of money. And you're contributing --
20 my discussion with the FBI was you're
21 contributing to a criminal enterprise, you're
22 aiding and abetting, you know, international
23 criminals. So you shouldn't pay it.
24 But at the same time, what do we say
523
1 to, you know, school districts, what do we
2 say to healthcare facilities who have been
3 hacked and whose data has been encrypted and
4 they can't get access to it? So, you know,
5 we're going to move the bill through the
6 Senate's Internet and Technology Committee,
7 and I'm sure I'll get a million phone calls
8 from people who say that this is not the way
9 to go about it.
10 But there has to be a way for, you
11 know, states to develop policies that kind of
12 send a message that we are not going to
13 continue to be victims of cybercriminals.
14 The answer, of course, would come from
15 Washington. They're not doing anything on
16 this issue, in spite of, you know, their
17 rhetoric. They actually have not passed any
18 meaningful legislation or adopted any
19 policies.
20 So what would you suggest we say with
21 respect to ransomware payments?
22 INTERIM CIO RIDDICK: First, Senator
23 Savino, I absolutely respect your position on
24 not paying ransomware. I don't want to tilt
524
1 my professional hand and talk about the
2 strategies that we're discussing in ITS to
3 mitigate these vulnerabilities, to make sure
4 that we have resources available to help our
5 localities and our agencies within the
6 infrastructure recover from a ransomware
7 attack.
8 Unfortunately, the best we can be in
9 cybersecurity, and I've said this for years,
10 is one town ahead of the posse. So being
11 actively involved in establishing a
12 relationship with localities, and
13 establishing a solid relationship with the
14 agencies that we support, is the first step,
15 so that they understand what our strategy is.
16 And hopefully one day we'll be able to
17 totally defeat the ransomware attack. But
18 until then, my team discusses this daily, and
19 we have a plan.
20 SENATOR SAVINO: And then finally, do
21 you find that local governments are notifying
22 you when there are ransomware attacks?
23 INTERIM CIO RIDDICK: They certainly
24 are. We get the notification from our
525
1 resource as well as the call from local
2 governments at times. But we usually know
3 just as they know, and we reach out to them,
4 we provide ourselves -- we provide them the
5 availability to discuss mitigation 24/7.
6 SENATOR SAVINO: Thank you. I look
7 forward to working with you more on these
8 very complicated issues. Good luck.
9 INTERIM CIO RIDDICK: Thank you so
10 much. Look forward to talking to you again.
11 SENATOR SAVINO: Thanks. I yield my
12 time back, Senator Krueger.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assemblywoman
14 Weinstein.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We do not have
16 any Assemblymembers as of yet looking to ask
17 questions of Mr. Riddick. So I will send it
18 back to you, and you can go through the
19 Senators that have questions.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. All
21 right.
22 Next up is Senator Zellnor Myrie.
23 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you,
24 Madam Chair.
526
1 And thank you, Director Riddick, for
2 your patience and endurance in bearing with
3 us and testifying now.
4 I just had a question around -- you
5 know, you mentioned some of the great work
6 the state has had to do during this pandemic
7 to stand up programs and applications. You
8 know, there was just a news article about
9 Guidehouse and the ERAP program and
10 application. And I understand that that is
11 somewhat breaking news, and so you don't
12 really have the opportunity to think and
13 respond to that.
14 But I wanted to ask, in a somewhat
15 relevant way, what the implications are for
16 the Homeowners Assistance Fund application,
17 which I think is largely being utilized
18 online and that has a short window -- that we
19 are approaching in about a week -- for people
20 to apply.
21 One, I wanted to see if there were any
22 concerns with what you're seeing as far as
23 those applications and people utilizing it
24 online. And, two, whether the Legislature or
527
1 the public is going to get any breakdown on
2 where those applications are coming from and
3 sort of whether they're being highly
4 utilized, underutilized, or whether we need
5 to do some more promotion.
6 INTERIM CIO RIDDICK: Well, Senator, I
7 can assure you that the applications are
8 being utilized, that the system is working to
9 date, that we work with the agency to ensure
10 that we provide the support that they need.
11 I make myself available. The nuances, of
12 course, always involve privacy and
13 cybersecurity. Our team is actively involved
14 with that.
15 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
17 Senator Brad Hoylman.
18 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you,
19 Madam Chair.
20 Good evening, sir. Thank you for
21 being with us, Mr. Riddick. And thank you
22 for your acknowledgment of the legislation
23 that Assemblymember Yuh-Line Niou and I
24 passed to require the translation of websites
528
1 into the 12 most widely spoken languages in
2 New York State, and for your assistance in
3 getting this bill signed. It's greatly
4 appreciated.
5 Given concerns around COVID, and you
6 just heard my colleague Senator Myrie around
7 ERAP and other applications for homeowner
8 assistance, do you have any sense of whether
9 perhaps pushing the bill a little farther
10 than it currently stands -- the statute,
11 which says you have to translate within
12 60 days for COVID-related websites of the
13 State of New York, six months for everything
14 else -- do you think with some of the more
15 important websites like around ERAP, like
16 around COVID, like around hate crimes, at
17 NY.gov you could maybe get it done sooner
18 than 60 days?
19 INTERIM CIO RIDDICK: I've made sure
20 that my priority has always been the
21 customer's priority. We understand the
22 prioritization of COVID-facing websites,
23 those agencies that have interaction with
24 COVID business, if you will, for lack of a
529
1 better term, are prioritized.
2 Can we get that done in 60 days?
3 Absolutely, with that prioritization.
4 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you.
5 And what's your perspective, looking
6 back, on the Department of Labor and their --
7 the websites that had crashed repeatedly
8 during the height of the pandemic and the
9 applications for unemployment insurance? Do
10 you have any lessons learned from that?
11 INTERIM CIO RIDDICK: You know, the
12 biggest lesson I learned is working
13 personally with the commissioners and the
14 senators who have questions, and making sure
15 that I meet with them so that we can
16 prioritize as a unit what their concerns are.
17 I don't have any future concerns with
18 working with DOL and the infrastructure
19 that's in place. We work continuously to
20 improve not only relationships but the
21 operation itself.
22 Again, as I stated last year, I'm a
23 people person first, a process person. We've
24 got to look at the products to make sure that
530
1 we have the right products in place to
2 deliver the services that residents need, and
3 we also look at policy to make sure we stay
4 and guide them.
5 SENATOR HOYLMAN: And finally, are we
6 investing enough in your department? Do you
7 have any staff to -- I mean, it's an enormous
8 task that you have before you.
9 INTERIM CIO RIDDICK: That's a tricky
10 question, Senator.
11 I will tell you I did relate to my
12 staff just recently that this is the first
13 time that we received more money in any
14 operation that I've ever had the honor of
15 working with as a leader. I compliment and I
16 commend Governor Hochul on her effort to make
17 sure that resources are available.
18 Can we use more? Absolutely. But do
19 we have enough to operate? I assure you we
20 do.
21 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you very much.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
23 And if the Assembly still doesn't
24 have --
531
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We do not have
2 anyone.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Then I have one
4 more question for the commissioner. Also
5 recognizing that we met, and suddenly you
6 were in the middle of COVID and all the
7 complications therein. I think I asked you
8 this question then, but I'm asking you again.
9 The state has a system called WMS,
10 Welfare Management System, that OTDA and
11 Office of Children and Family Services
12 operate on and parts of the Medicaid program
13 operated on and our local governments'
14 departments of social services all interact
15 with. It was outdated in 1989 when we first
16 turned it on.
17 Even yesterday I was in a conversation
18 with a state commissioner who said, "We
19 really want to do this, but WMS is never
20 going to be able to do the simple thing that
21 would really help."
22 So do you imagine in your tenure with
23 the state we might finally get a system to
24 replace the, again, beyond antiquated, beyond
532
1 not working correctly WMS system?
2 INTERIM CIO RIDDICK: Thank you so
3 much for that question. And thank you for
4 last year's education as well. I did a lot
5 of homework to find out exactly what the
6 impact of upgrading WMS would be.
7 Number one, I found out that most of
8 the infrastructure itself resides on a
9 mainframe. Now, the challenge with
10 mainframes and moving to newer technologies
11 is to keep life in that mainframe while you
12 build a new solution. Therefore, I asked my
13 technology team to look at mainframe as a
14 service so that we can literally fix the car
15 with the tires rolling.
16 As we do that, I found out -- thanks
17 to you -- about the new instantiation that
18 we're evolving to, and that's the Integrated
19 Eligibility System. We've hired a new
20 director in IES, a very, very skilled
21 employee who's been with ITS for a number of
22 years. She's taken on that monster, if you
23 will. She's developed a program. We have a
24 now deputy secretary who oversees the
533
1 agencies that that particular solution will
2 provide for our residents.
3 We've had several meetings. I'm very
4 confident that with the collaborative efforts
5 that we've taken thus far, understanding what
6 the mission is, that we can be on track to
7 deliver this IES system in a reasonable
8 amount of time. And we will not be slowed
9 down by an antiquated system because we're
10 breathing life at the same time.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. I
12 take that as very encouraging, and I look
13 forward to living long enough to, I don't
14 know, turn off WMS for the State of New York
15 at some point. So thank you very much.
16 And I think, with that, we're going to
17 excuse you for the evening and thank you for
18 your hard work and urge you to move forth to
19 do so many things, because we're in a world
20 of everything being driven by technology and
21 we just need to get better and better at it.
22 So thank you very much for joining us.
23 INTERIM CIO RIDDICK: Absolutely.
24 It's definitely an honor. Have a good
534
1 evening.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
3 And now I'm going to be calling up our
4 last government representative for this
5 hearing. You thought it would never end.
6 That's only part one of the hearing, folks.
7 The New York State Office of Indigent
8 Legal Services, Patricia Warth.
9 Are you with us, Patricia?
10 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: I am here.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Great. Welcome.
12 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Thank you.
13 Good evening, everybody.
14 So as Senator Krueger said, I am
15 Patricia Warth. I was nominated by the
16 Indigent Legal Services Board earlier this
17 year to replace Bill Leahy in June of 2021
18 when he stepped down as director. So I'm
19 happy to be here. This is my first time
20 testifying on behalf of ILS.
21 And I want to thank you on behalf of
22 the ILS board and the ILS office for the
23 support that this Legislature has shown our
24 office in the 11 years of our existence. And
535
1 of course I also want to thank you for this
2 opportunity to talk to you about the
3 Executive Budget as it pertains to indigent
4 legal services.
5 And, you know, the Executive Budget
6 for ILS is a story of good news and
7 not-so-good news. So I'm going to start with
8 the good news.
9 And the good news is that once again
10 the Executive has included in the budget full
11 funding for ILS to work towards one part of
12 our mission, and that is improving the
13 quality of mandated criminal defense. And
14 this takes the form of, you know,
15 $23.8 million to fully fund implementation of
16 the Hurrell-Harring settlement in five
17 counties -- but, just as importantly, an
18 additional $50 million over last year's Aid
19 to Localities budget to fully fund extension
20 of the Hurrell-Harring settlement to the
21 entire state, so all of the
22 non-Hurrell-Harring counties and New York
23 City. And so this year that will be a total
24 of $250 million in our Aid to Localities
536
1 Budget for that endeavor.
2 And so that's the fifth year of the
3 five-year phase-in for full implementation of
4 the Hurrell-Harring settlement extension to
5 the entire state.
6 And I know that this funding, both the
7 settlement funding and the funding to extend
8 it statewide, would not be possible without
9 this Legislature's support for the work that
10 we do, and we very much appreciate it. We
11 work diligently to ensure that the funding is
12 being spent responsibly and in accordance
13 with the goals of the settlement and its
14 implementation statewide. And, you know,
15 when I'm done I'm happy to answer questions
16 about our progress in statewide
17 implementation and progress with the
18 settlement.
19 So that's the good news. But then
20 there's the not-so-good news. The
21 not-so-good news has to do with that part of
22 our mission regarding improving the quality
23 of mandated parental representation for
24 parents in Family Court proceedings.
537
1 And, you know, this is just as legally
2 mandated, constitutionally mandated and
3 statutorily mandated as criminal defense, and
4 yet once again, you know, the Executive
5 Budget, at $2.5 million in Aid to Localities
6 for improved-quality Family Court
7 representation is insufficient for the work
8 that we need to do.
9 And, you know, I feel confident that
10 based on last year's enacted budget, I don't
11 need to convince you of how important it is
12 to fully fund this initiative for ILS, to
13 fully fund our request of $9 million in Aid
14 to Localities for this. And I think I don't
15 need to fully convince you because it's
16 because of you that last year's enacted
17 budget included $2.5 million for
18 improved-quality Family Court representation.
19 This was a legislative add in last year's
20 budget, and we were gratified to see that the
21 Executive in this year's budget honored what
22 you did last year and included it in her
23 proposed budget.
24 But the 2.5 million in this year's
538
1 Executive proposed budget is 6.5 million less
2 than our request of 9 million and just a
3 fraction of what is needed to address the
4 lack of resources under which public defense
5 attorneys currently work in the Family Court
6 part of their practice.
7 And we recognize that the Legislature
8 alone cannot fix this problem. The right to
9 counsel in Family Court matters is a
10 foundational constitutional and statutory
11 right. It's no different from the right to
12 counsel in criminal proceedings. And so it
13 deserves a commitment by both the Executive
14 and the Legislature to fully fund the quality
15 improvements for mandated parental
16 representation.
17 And I think that you appreciate the
18 consequences of failure to address the crisis
19 in Family Court representation. I think you
20 understand that currently our public defense
21 providers in their Family Court part of their
22 practice work under crushing caseloads, that
23 they don't have the resources that they need
24 to fully investigate and litigate their cases
539
1 or to connect their clients with the supports
2 that can prevent, you know, children from
3 being removed from their parents. And I
4 think that, you know, you understand what the
5 model is that we're looking for in the
6 funding.
7 In my written testimony I talk about
8 sort of the various lenses through which one
9 can view the importance of adequate funding
10 for Family Court representation. I talk
11 about the importance of family integrity and
12 how fully funding this will not only honor,
13 you know, the constitutional rights that
14 parents have to legal representation, but it
15 will also guard against children from being
16 needlessly removed from their parents.
17 Because currently, under our current system,
18 public defense attorneys don't have the time
19 and resources that they need to get courts
20 the full information courts need in making
21 decisions that are in the best interests of
22 the children about these cases.
23 I also talk about the racial justice
24 implications of this. I mean, we know that
540
1 currently our system is biased towards
2 families of color and that bias plays out
3 every day in our Family Courts. And, you
4 know, the antidote to that is sufficient
5 funding for attorneys who represent parents
6 in Family Court issues.
7 And I also talk about the problems
8 inherent in fixing one part of the mandated
9 public defense system -- you know, the
10 criminal part of it -- but not fixing the
11 other part of it, which is the Family Court
12 part of it.
13 So, you know, I encourage you to read
14 my written testimony and to ask any questions
15 that you have about it.
16 But my ask to you today is that over
17 the next several weeks you make it a priority
18 to include the additional $6.5 million for
19 Family Court defense in the final enacted
20 budget. And like I said, I recognize that it
21 can't just be a legislative add, that this
22 has got to be an Executive and Legislature
23 joint commitment.
24 And in asking you to do this, I want
541
1 to emphasize that this funding does not need
2 to come from the General Fund. There is a
3 special fund available, the Indigent Legal
4 Services Fund, which has adequate funding
5 right now to pay both for mandated criminal
6 defense and to fully fund our request for the
7 9 million for parental representation. And
8 so I'm happy to answer any questions you have
9 about that.
10 But before I finish I just want to
11 touch very quickly on two additional issues
12 that, though not in the ILS budget, are
13 directly within our statutory mission.
14 And the first, of course, is the dire
15 need to increase the Assigned Counsel Program
16 rates. And I don't think I can explain the
17 need for increased rates any better than
18 Senator Bailey did in his editorial for the
19 Daily News, so I'm not going to, you know, go
20 on about it. But I will say that his
21 editorial echoed a 2019 letter that
22 Chief Judge DiFiore sent to the Legislature
23 about the need to increase assigned counsel
24 rates. And of course Judge Marks talked
542
1 about it earlier today in his testimony. So
2 I think we can all agree that this is very
3 important and now is the time to do it.
4 I would also just add, you know, from
5 ILS's perspective we're starting to see that
6 the failure to address this issue is starting
7 to have an impact on our ability to fully
8 implement the Hurrell-Harring settlement and
9 to extend it statewide. Because as you know,
10 an important component of that is caseload
11 relief. But if the Assigned Counsel Program
12 rates are not increased, we will continue to
13 see attorneys just abandon the assigned
14 counsel panels. And as Judge Marks told you
15 earlier today, when attorneys leave the
16 panels, there's not enough attorneys for
17 which courts can assign cases, and the
18 attorneys that are left have overwhelming
19 caseloads.
20 So that's the perspective that we
21 have. And, you know, I would encourage you
22 to also address this issue as an ongoing
23 discussion with the Executive about the final
24 enacted budget.
543
1 And then finally, as we do every
2 year -- and we do this every year because
3 it's important -- we do request full funding
4 for our partner, you know, the New York State
5 Defender Association. NYSDA's work is
6 incredibly important to the work that ILS
7 does. I describe it in a little more detail
8 in the written testimony.
9 But we see the work of NYSDA as, you
10 know, critical to the ongoing work of
11 improving the quality of both criminal
12 defense and mandated parental defense. So
13 again, I ask you -- you know, reiterate that
14 request, as we do every year, that NYSDA
15 receive full funding.
16 And so with that, I'm a little bit
17 short of my 10 minutes, and I will pause and
18 entertain questions.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
20 All right. So first up out of the box
21 is chairman of Codes, Jamaal Bailey.
22 SENATOR BAILEY: Thank
23 you, Madam Chair.
24 And thank you, Patricia, for being so
544
1 patient with today's testimony. It has been,
2 as Chairwoman Krueger mentioned, it's been
3 quite an extended hearing.
4 I want to thank you, and you've
5 already said a lot of what I was going to
6 already ask you about, the 18-B and the
7 necessity for a raise for assigned counsel.
8 Just to put it in context, the last
9 raise was in 2004. And in 2004 I, you know,
10 was a few pounds -- a lot lighter and I was
11 only an intern in the State Legislature.
12 That tells you how long it's been since there
13 has been a raise for assigned counsel.
14 But in all seriousness, could you --
15 if you could flesh out what that means to the
16 average indigent person, to that family who
17 can ill afford not to have representation,
18 especially in a Family Court proceeding.
19 Could you give me an example of what an
20 overburdened attorney pool or what
21 overburdened assigned counsel means for the
22 folks that you advocate for?
23 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Sure. I mean, I
24 think it means two really critical things.
545
1 First, there's often a significant delay in
2 the assignment of counsel, as the ACP
3 administrator or the judge, you know, calls
4 around trying to find somebody who will take
5 the case. And so what it means is that
6 somebody's not represented at their first
7 court appearance. And that's true for both
8 criminal cases and Family Court cases.
9 And, you know, that undermines the
10 goals, of course, of the settlement and its
11 expansion statewide.
12 But then the second thing that it
13 means is that you're not -- you don't have
14 time to -- your attorney doesn't have time to
15 fully investigate or litigate the case or to
16 meet with you. So practically speaking, as a
17 litigant, you're seeing your attorney for
18 five minutes at the beginning of a court
19 appearance and at the end of a court
20 appearance, and that's pretty much it. You
21 do not have the time to talk to your attorney
22 about the situation, about your life
23 circumstances, to really sort of flesh out
24 the situation.
546
1 And so as a result, you don't fully
2 understand the proceeding against you.
3 You're confused, you're anxious and you're
4 upset. But more importantly, you're not able
5 to convey to your attorney really critical
6 information that the attorney can use to
7 fully investigate the case, whether it's a
8 Family Court case or a criminal case. And so
9 what that means is that critical information
10 is left uninvestigated and not presented to a
11 court in whatever type of proceeding it would
12 be key.
13 And so, you know, from a person's
14 point of view, you know, you walk away from
15 the situation feeling like the system didn't
16 work for you. And often -- you know, I see
17 this a lot in criminal cases, but people give
18 up. And often they take a plea even if
19 they're not guilty, but because they're
20 just -- they know the system isn't working,
21 they know it's not fair for them, and so they
22 just throw in the towel and they just, you
23 know, take whatever plea is recommended to
24 them by the attorney.
547
1 And the same thing happens in
2 Family Court proceedings as well. And so
3 sometimes people lose their children, when
4 they really shouldn't have to, because of the
5 lack of resources that their attorney had.
6 SENATOR BAILEY: So it's fair to say
7 that the raise is not simply just about
8 compensating individuals more, it is about
9 providing families throughout the State of
10 New York with greater support systems via the
11 legal system and the surrounding system. I
12 think that would be a fair assessment to
13 make.
14 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: You know, and I'm
15 glad you said that, because what that goes to
16 is that, you know, we're asking for two
17 things. Right? We're asking for the
18 $9 million in Aid to Localities for parental
19 representation, improved parental
20 representation. And we're asking for this
21 Legislature to, you know, work hard on
22 increasing the ACP rates.
23 And I know you and I talked about that
24 earlier as parallel asks, and I really see
548
1 them as intertwined asks, because they both
2 achieve the same thing: Ensuring that
3 there's justice for our families and ensuring
4 that children are not needlessly taken from
5 their parents. And they're both needed to do
6 that.
7 SENATOR BAILEY: Absolutely. Look, I
8 think that -- you know, I think that we need
9 to fund defense, we need to fund prosecution,
10 we need to fund family attorneys, we need to
11 fund everybody. If we're not funding
12 attorneys or offices or agencies that
13 dispense the representation of the people,
14 then I think that, you know, we're not -- I
15 think we're doing ourselves a major
16 disservice.
17 My final question before I yield the
18 rest of my time. Is there any -- you
19 mentioned that -- and I think it's something
20 that, if you're paying attention, that these
21 unfortunate circumstances affect people and
22 children of color more adversely. Is there a
23 geographical bent to this in this state? Do
24 you find that this is happening more
549
1 downstate or upstate? Or is it something
2 that happens throughout our great state?
3 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: It's --
4 unfortunately, it's something that happens
5 throughout our great state.
6 People are discriminated against
7 because they're Black or brown and sometimes
8 just because they're poor. You know, I see
9 it every day in our courts, playing out, the
10 moral judgments against people who are poor.
11 And, you know, the sort of implicit biases
12 that play out because of those judgments.
13 It's unfortunate, but again, you know,
14 I can tell you -- you know, I was a lucky
15 attorney. My first gig as a criminal defense
16 attorney was working for the Capital Defender
17 Office here in New York, and we were
18 adequately funded. And so I had the time to
19 meet with my clients, to meet with their
20 family members, to learn about their life
21 circumstances. And I truly believe that that
22 armed me -- the information I learned from
23 them armed me with the tools that I needed to
24 be able to fend off that type of implicit
550
1 bias.
2 Because it's that ability to humanize
3 our clients, to tell their stories, that --
4 that's the best anecdote that I can think of
5 to the implicit bias in decision-making that
6 is natural that we see play out every day in
7 our court system.
8 SENATOR BAILEY: So it's fair to say
9 that whether it's the Bronx County or
10 Broome County, that we need to do this
11 throughout the state. I think that would be
12 a fair assessment.
13 This is my actual last question,
14 because I just thought of another one.
15 Obviously we have seen the -- based upon the
16 Hurrell-Harring settlement, we have seen
17 increased strength in representation along
18 with a decline in caseload.
19 Would you venture to say that if the
20 caseloads decline on the parental side, on
21 the family side, that we would see that same
22 quality of representation go up?
23 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Absolutely. I
24 mean, they go hand in hand. And that's not
551
1 to say that it happens automatically. And
2 that's -- you know, that's the value of
3 having a state agency like ILS work with the
4 counties on the plan for using the funding
5 effectively to not only reduce caseloads but
6 increase quality.
7 You know, it's that plan that's
8 effectuated through contracts that we issue
9 to the counties that I think is
10 accountability for everybody involved. And
11 we've seen that it's working very effectively
12 in the Hurrell-Harring counties. We're
13 starting to see it work effectively with, you
14 know, extending Hurrell-Harring across the
15 state. And we have an opportunity to see it
16 work just as effectively with the 2.5 million
17 that was part of ILS's Aid to Localities
18 budget this year, and this week we are
19 sending out the contracts to the five
20 counties that were awarded $500,000 each over
21 three years for that 2.5 million. And we're
22 already starting to meet with the counties to
23 talk about how do we measure the improvement
24 in representation that we're going to realize
552
1 through even that small amount of funding.
2 But yes, you know, the -- reduce the
3 caseloads, monitor what is happening, and you
4 will see improved quality.
5 SENATOR BAILEY: Thank you. I just
6 want to say thank you for all the work that
7 you do at ILS. I just want to say that the
8 agency remains in excellent hands. Thank you
9 for the work that you do in the agency,
10 Patricia. It's a pleasure to work with you.
11 Madam Chair, I yield the rest of my
12 time.
13 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
15 Chair Weinstein. We'll roll it to you
16 for dueling chairs.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes. And we'll
18 go to Assemblyman Dinowitz, chair of the
19 Codes Committee first, for 10 minutes.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Thank you.
21 Well, first let me just say thank you
22 to you, Patricia, and to ILS for the work
23 that you do and for the impact that you've
24 had on so many people, so many families in
553
1 New York. It makes a difference.
2 I just have a couple of questions.
3 One is kind of a very general question and
4 then the other is a little more specific.
5 So your office, your goal is to be
6 able to represent people who need
7 representation. My question is in terms of
8 people who should be eligible for
9 representation, like how many are actually
10 getting representation assigned to them?
11 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: That's a really
12 good question.
13 As part of that, we -- and as part of
14 the settlement, we were required to develop
15 standards for determining financial
16 eligibility for assignment of counsel in
17 criminal cases for the Hurrell-Harring
18 settlement. And those standards are -- our
19 authorizing statute, our implementing statute
20 authorizes us to do those as well. So the
21 settlement, you know, inspired us to do that.
22 And we have done those standards. We
23 did a very extensive training program in
24 partnership with NYSDA statewide to implement
554
1 these standards. I should also say OCA
2 worked with us and the Office of Justice
3 Court Supports on training judges, so we had
4 training of providers and judges.
5 And what we've been hearing, and
6 particularly in Hurrell-Harring counties, is
7 that they've been very effective at ensuring
8 that people who cannot afford to retain
9 counsel in criminal cases are getting
10 counsel. And that because they streamline
11 the eligibility process, people are getting
12 counsel quickly. It's not a long, belabored
13 process.
14 This past year we updated those
15 standards pursuant to a recommendation of the
16 Chief Judge's Commission on Parental
17 Representation. We updated those standards
18 to include Family Court representation as
19 well. And we're starting to work very
20 closely with counties on -- and we worked
21 with NYSDA on a training -- again, training
22 providers in how to implement those standards
23 in Family Court cases. And, you know, we're
24 looking forward to having, you know, the
555
1 capacity to start to see how that's working
2 too.
3 But what we're hearing is that when
4 the standards are applied, that people who
5 need counsel get it. In other words, that
6 most people who apply for counsel get
7 counsel.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Okay. Well,
9 that's good. That's very good to hear.
10 Coming from the Bronx, one of the big
11 issues we have is the tremendous need for
12 representation of people in our immigrant
13 community, immigrant proceedings where people
14 are facing deportation. And, you know, I
15 don't know what the numbers are, but I'm sure
16 it's quite significant.
17 Has your office been involved in
18 establishing and improving representation to
19 immigrant-related proceedings for persons who
20 can't afford representation? Which I'm sure
21 are a very significant portion of the
22 community.
23 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah. Our office
24 isn't. That's not part of our statutory
556
1 mandate. Again, our mandate focuses on
2 criminal defense in criminal court and
3 parental representation in Family Court.
4 However, as you may know, several
5 years ago the United States Supreme Court
6 issued a decision saying that in criminal
7 cases it's an obligation of the defense
8 attorney to advise his or her noncitizen
9 client of the immigration consequences of
10 both the arrest and a possible conviction.
11 And so towards that end, we've
12 developed six what we call regional
13 immigration assistance centers. And so there
14 are six centers across the state, they
15 essentially cover the whole state, and they
16 assist criminal defense attorneys and also
17 Family Court attorneys in advising their
18 clients as to the immigration consequences of
19 either a criminal proceeding or a Family
20 Court proceeding or, for clients who are
21 involved in both, of both proceedings.
22 And so, you know, it's not quite, you
23 know, what you were asking, but it's still
24 the work that we can do on our end to ensure
557
1 that noncitizens have the representation that
2 they need, at least in one part of their
3 involvement in the justice system or the
4 Family Court system.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Okay. Thank
6 you very much. And again, thank you for
7 everything that you do.
8 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Thank you.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I think we'll go
10 back now to our other chair, Senator Brad
11 Hoylman.
12 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you, Chair
13 Krueger.
14 Good evening, Ms. Warth. Thank you
15 for your advocacy and all of your work -- and
16 your colleague Burton Phillips, who used to
17 be my colleague in the Senate.
18 And wanted to also acknowledge all the
19 work that my colleagues did last session in
20 getting your -- and now the Executive having
21 bought in, if you will, to the increase that
22 we were able to provide last year.
23 But when it comes to Family Court, you
24 know, we look at Hurrell-Harring as kind of
558
1 the doomsday scenario, if you will, in terms
2 of the Legislature being able to dictate its
3 own budget.
4 Are you concerned that we might see
5 something similar -- you know, a court case,
6 a class action lawsuit where it might be
7 mandated for us to require the funding of
8 representation in Family Court?
9 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Absolutely. I
10 mean, you know, Burton talks about this,
11 right? He frames it as we're seeing
12 historical echoes right now. Right?
13 The Hurrell-Harring lawsuit, you know,
14 as people know was instigated by sort of a
15 couple of key components: One, a
16 constitutional and statutory right to counsel
17 in criminal proceedings; two, you know, the
18 counties having the responsibility of paying
19 for that, you know, implementing that, right,
20 which is really a state obligation; and
21 three, a commission that studied it and found
22 that the current system was deeply flawed and
23 wasn't meeting constitutional and statutory
24 obligations. So those were the essential
559
1 components that led to the Hurrell-Harring
2 litigation.
3 Well, they all exist right now for
4 Family Court representation. You know, you
5 have the constitutional and statutory right
6 to counsel of parents in Family Court
7 proceedings. You have the state not stepping
8 up to the plate, essentially, and doing its
9 part in funding that but instead, you know,
10 requiring the counties to do it. And then
11 you have -- in 2019 you have a commission
12 convened by a chief judge, in this case
13 Chief Judge DiFiore, which did extensive
14 hearings and collected a lot of information
15 and produced a report that just basically
16 mirrored the report that was issued back in
17 2006 by then the Kaye Commission, really just
18 outlining just how broken the system is for
19 the delivery of legal representation for
20 parents in Family Court proceedings.
21 And I also want to add one thing to
22 that. You know, I was rereading a case, a
23 1972 case called Matter of Ella B., and that
24 was a case in which the Court of Appeals
560
1 reminded everybody that the right to counsel
2 for parents in Family Court proceedings is a
3 constitutional imperative. And it was
4 interesting because the argument made to the
5 court at that point for defending a judge's
6 decision to not advise a mother who was at
7 risk of losing her child that she had the
8 right the counsel -- the argument that was
9 made to defend that decision was, Well, it's
10 Family Court, it's not the same as criminal.
11 This isn't a right that is important.
12 And the Court of Appeals rejected that
13 argument and said we're talking about a
14 fundamental interest that a parent has in his
15 or her children. Of course that's
16 fundamental. Of course that's just as
17 important as the right to counsel in criminal
18 proceedings.
19 And, you know, what I think is key
20 about the DiFiore Commission's report is that
21 they not only frame the issue as the right
22 for parents, but they also talk about the
23 issue as the right for children to make sure
24 that cases are fully and fairly litigated so
561
1 that judges have the full and complete
2 information that they need to make decisions
3 that are in the best interests of the
4 children.
5 And so I think the DiFiore Commission
6 sort of closed the loop in that regard and
7 really sort of talked about the importance of
8 this funding both, you know, to honor the
9 constitutional right for parents but also to
10 honor the importance of family integrity.
11 SENATOR HOYLMAN: It's so interesting.
12 So like -- so basically the sanctity of
13 parenthood is viewed as integral, as
14 important as the sanctity to one's liberty in
15 a criminal case.
16 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah. I mean and
17 I've had clients who had both a pending
18 Family Court proceeding and a criminal
19 proceeding, and almost uniformly they were
20 more worried about the Family Court
21 proceeding. That meant more to them. You
22 know, losing their children meant more to
23 them.
24 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Meant more.
562
1 Now, so we're talking about
2 6.5 million to make up the differential, is
3 that correct?
4 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: That's correct,
5 yes.
6 SENATOR HOYLMAN: And practically
7 speaking, what does that look like in terms
8 of the number of families that would then be
9 represented?
10 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Well, you know,
11 that -- I would love to be able to give you
12 that answer. I think with the 2.5 we're
13 going to find out more, you know, the exact
14 number of how the families -- or how that
15 works.
16 But it's also -- you know another way
17 to think about it is if, you know, you have
18 one public defender office, even just adding
19 one attorney reduces the caseloads of all the
20 attorneys in that office. So it really
21 impacts all of the clients for that office.
22 And so, you know, whatever number I
23 gave you -- you know, if I just gave you a
24 number of what that one attorney -- the
563
1 number of clients that one attorney
2 represented, it really would underestimate
3 the full impact. Still, that's the kind of
4 information we're going to try to get.
5 SENATOR HOYLMAN: And then finally,
6 can you help us understand why Family Court
7 representation is part of the Public
8 Protection budget hearing? How are those two
9 connected?
10 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah. I mean, I
11 think I go back to Ella B. for that one. You
12 know, as soon as the Court of Appeals said
13 this is the same, right, these two interests
14 are both so foundational that the state
15 really has a requirement to make sure that
16 there's the right to counsel.
17 And so after Ella B., the right to
18 representation of parents in Family Court
19 proceedings was added to County Law
20 Article 18, which was already established for
21 criminal cases. And so, you know, it's now
22 the same offices, the same providers do both.
23 They do both criminal representation and the
24 representation of parents in Family Court
564
1 proceedings.
2 And so that's our office's mission.
3 You know, we work to improve the quality of
4 representation provided under County Law
5 18-B. And so that's sort of where it all
6 came together. But that also speaks to why,
7 you know, I'm sort of reiterating the problem
8 of trying to fix one part of the system and
9 not the other part of the system.
10 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you.
11 Finally, on the ILS -- (overtalk).
12 Sorry, my 4-year-old interrupting. On the
13 assigned counsel rates -- I'm not sure if you
14 touched on this with Senator Bailey -- why do
15 you take the position that the cost of any
16 increases should be shouldered by New York
17 State rather than by the counties or
18 localities?
19 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Well, you know, I
20 think we need to learn the lesson that we
21 learned from 2004. And in 2004, you know,
22 when the rate was increased, the counties had
23 to fully assume fiscal responsibility for
24 that increase. And so what we saw across the
565
1 state is that in order to pay for that
2 increase, counties cut costs and mandated
3 representation in other ways. Right?
4 And so we saw public defense
5 providers, you know, their budgets were cut.
6 We saw the creation of these conflict
7 defender contracts that, you know, would ask
8 one person to represent an inordinate number
9 of clients in both family and criminal case
10 proceedings.
11 And, you know, I really felt like --
12 you know, my first several years at ILS was
13 working as the chief attorney for the
14 Hurrell-Harring settlement implementation
15 unit, and truly I felt like a lot of what I
16 was doing was undoing the damage from the
17 decision made in 2004 to require the counties
18 to pay the increase.
19 You know, and I'm not asking the state
20 to pay the full cost for assigned counsel
21 rates. You know, I think for the counties to
22 continue to pay the current rates and the
23 counties to, you know, to pay the increase I
24 think is a sort of fair resolution of that.
566
1 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you very much.
2 Thank you, Madam Chair.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 We go to Assemblyman Lavine, chair of
5 the Judiciary Committee, 10 minutes. And
6 he'll be followed by Assemblyman Epstein.
7 Go ahead, Mr. Lavine.
8 THE MODERATOR: I think you're still
9 muted.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: No, you are not
11 muted, but we cannot hear you.
12 Why don't we go to Assemblyman --
13 since there are no other Senators, we'll go
14 to Assemblyman Epstein while we figure out
15 Mr. Lavine's issue with sound.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And it might be
17 the best to just turn yourself off, Chuck,
18 and then try to come back into Zoom.
19 Sometimes that takes care of it.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Well, that
21 worked.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, okay. Fine.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Since Harvey's
24 busy talking on the -- yes, go ahead.
567
1 (Laughter.)
2 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Thanks. And
3 sorry.
4 Patricia, I was once a public
5 defender. I did 18-B work in the criminal
6 realm and in Family Court. And I was also
7 learned counsel on death penalty cases and
8 did CJA work in the federal courts. So
9 needless to say, I could not be prouder of
10 what you do. But I want to share what my
11 experience was as an 18-B attorney.
12 Sure enough, whenever I needed an
13 expert, whenever I needed an investigator, I
14 had to engage in a lengthy piece of motion
15 practice -- and that's assuming on some of
16 these cases I could find a qualified
17 investigator or the experts would be willing
18 to work at what were the 18-B rates in those
19 days. Now, this is a long time ago.
20 I never had that problem on death
21 penalty cases. I never once had that problem
22 in representation in the federal courts.
23 What's the experience these days in
24 terms of attorneys being able to work with
568
1 experts and investigators who actually will
2 be paid?
3 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah. Well, the
4 experience is different depending on whether
5 it's a criminal case or a Family Court case.
6 Because of the Hurrell-Harring settlement and
7 its extension statewide, we've worked with
8 the counties on making funding available --
9 and this is state funding available -- in
10 criminal cases for the ACP attorneys to
11 access experts without having to go through
12 that difficult motion process.
13 And so we're working with the assigned
14 counsel programs, you know, so part of what
15 we're doing is we're building the
16 infrastructure for the assigned counsel
17 programs so that there's somebody within the
18 program. And every program designates
19 somebody different to review a request for an
20 expert and then to review vouchers for an
21 expert. But it doesn't have to go in front
22 of a judge, and it's not a complicated
23 request process.
24 And in some cases, you know, if you
569
1 need an expert like an investigator --
2 sometimes you need the investigator
3 yesterday. And if you have to go through the
4 complicated process, evidence is going to be
5 lost. And so now the ACPs have systems in
6 place in their criminal cases where, you
7 know, the person can get the expert and then
8 get the ACP to pay for it with the, you know,
9 post hoc application, if you will.
10 And so that's working really, really
11 well for the criminal attorneys. The same
12 thing isn't available for Family Court
13 attorneys because the funding isn't there.
14 And that's the type of thing we want to do,
15 is to make sure that we can do that for both
16 the criminal side of a public defense
17 practice but also the Family Court side of
18 it.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Well, good
20 lawyering and good lobbying, Patricia.
21 If we are able to make some progress
22 in terms of being able to take care of this
23 differential, does the amount that you
24 suggested cover not simply just the attorneys
570
1 but experts and investigators as well?
2 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: So for -- you
3 know, we're issuing -- you know, again I go
4 back to the 2.5 that was added as a result of
5 this Legislature's work. We worked, you
6 know, very quickly to get board approval to
7 issue an RFP. We issued an RFP for five
8 awards of $500,000 each over three years. So
9 that's not a lot of money. It's $167,000 per
10 year.
11 We had 25 counties apply, all of
12 them -- I mean, just really excellent
13 proposals. You know, We had a scoring
14 system. We're issuing contracts to the top
15 five awardees this week. And I think three
16 of those contracts include that type of
17 funding. And so like Cortland County was one
18 of the awardees, and so they're funding an
19 attorney to reduce caseloads. And then the
20 extra funding that they have that -- you
21 know, they're having a pot of money so they
22 can access experts in their Family Court
23 cases as well.
24 And so, you know, it's a small amount
571
1 of money, but it's going to have a
2 significant impact in that county. And it's
3 going to jump-start the process of improving
4 the quality of representation.
5 Now, to be fair, when I talked to the
6 public defender, he said, you know, "I wish I
7 had enough money for a social worker. That's
8 what I really need." You know, so that's why
9 we're asking for more.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: And let me
11 advocate for that, because as part of the
12 training to be learned counsel on death
13 penalty cases, the fact that social workers
14 play such a critical role in adopting a
15 holistic approach to handling a case is
16 something I will never forget.
17 So I didn't mean to leave out social
18 workers from the equation. And I simply want
19 to say thanks for what you do. And whatever
20 time I have left, I rest my case.
21 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Thank you.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. I
23 think, Assemblywoman, we're still done, so --
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay, we have
572
1 now Assemblyman Epstein. Three minutes on
2 the clock, please.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you, Chair
4 Weinstein.
5 Appreciate you being here, Director.
6 So, you know, we've talked about
7 limited resources for -- just to disclose,
8 I'm a former civil legal services lawyer for
9 decades, ran programs. And so this is
10 something that is deeply meaningful to me as
11 well.
12 And I'm wondering, since we always
13 talk about limited pots, I'm wondering,
14 instead of focusing on an area of law,
15 focusing on a population. And I'm wondering
16 what -- if you've had those conversations
17 internally that say, you know, with a
18 population of veterans, they need family law
19 help, housing help, you know, public
20 benefits. Can we do comprehensive services
21 to that population instead of driven to an
22 area of law?
23 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah, I mean, I
24 think that's a really good question.
573
1 Except the issue that we would have
2 with that is that the constitutional
3 statutory mandate doesn't just target a
4 population. You know? It targets everybody
5 who is entitled to counsel. And so I think
6 we'd be doing a disservice to our mission if
7 we were to just limit it to a population.
8 Having said that, I will admit that
9 for the 2.5 million that we received in Aid
10 to Localities for improved-quality parental
11 representation, we did focus -- for the RFP
12 that we issued, we did focus that funding on
13 one type of Family Court matter, and that's
14 state intervention matters. Those are the
15 matters that involve parents, you know,
16 potentially losing their children.
17 And so yes, we did -- you know, given
18 the limited funding, we did focus, you know,
19 sort of along the lines of what you're
20 talking about.
21 I would also say, though, that, you
22 know, I understand the issue of limited
23 funding. But we do know that this year we do
24 have a healthier economy and a healthier
574
1 state budget. And I also reiterate what I
2 said about the Indigent Legal Services Fund:
3 The additional funding that we're requesting
4 for parental representation can and should
5 come out of that fund. That's exactly what
6 it was made for.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Just so you
8 know, I think we should have a right to
9 counsel. I firmly believe in the right to
10 counsel statewide on a whole host of issues
11 for lower-income New Yorkers. And so, you
12 know, I agree that the pot doesn't have to be
13 limited. But I think once we continue to
14 show successes, like you said, like in a
15 certain type of Family Court case if we
16 create a right, in a certain type of, you
17 know, population we create a right -- that,
18 you know, whether it's -- we talked about,
19 you know, more money for housing, but that's
20 still -- then the lawyer is making the
21 choice -- you know, the Governor.
22 Instead of saying you have a right,
23 now you can exercise this right to get free
24 services because you're entitled to it,
575
1 instead of the program saying, oh, we're
2 going to choose which case based on this
3 initial money we got that we think has the
4 most merit.
5 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Right, yeah.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: So I wonder how
7 you'd feel -- I know I've run out of time,
8 but it would be great to continue the
9 conversation about how we reframe the
10 conversation.
11 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah, I mean --
12 and I think that's how our mandate is
13 different from normal civil legal services.
14 There's already been a court decision that
15 somebody has the right to counsel for the
16 work that we do. You know, so -- so, you
17 know, it's not quite in the same area.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
19 We have Assemblywoman Kelles to close
20 for this witness.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Thank you.
22 And my deepest apologies. All of us
23 are running in between three different
24 meetings all at the same time, so I'm sure --
576
1 you know, I may have missed some things. And
2 I understand the questions that are being
3 asked.
4 I see that the budget increases by
5 50 million in funding for the continued
6 expansion of performed guidance for -- by the
7 Hurrell-Harring. Is that the funding you're
8 referring to that you are requesting?
9 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: No. That is
10 already in the Executive Budget. And that is
11 part of the five-year plan to implement the
12 extension of the Hurrell-Harring settlement
13 statewide in a five-year increment. So the
14 first year was 50 million, the second year --
15 and so this is the fifth year, so this is the
16 full 250 million needed.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Okay. And in
18 the request I'm curious if it incorporates
19 for all the specialty courts like the Mental
20 Health Court -- you were speaking about
21 Family Court earlier -- to cover the legal
22 counsel -- right to counsel.
23 I agree with my colleague who just
24 spoke. Absolutely huge supporter of right to
577
1 counsel across the whole state for everyone
2 who is low-income and needs it. So I'm
3 trying to get a sense of what the request
4 would cover. Does it cover all specialty
5 courts? Does it also cover resource
6 coordinators for these courts that I know
7 help once -- you know, once cases are
8 finalized, help individuals access the
9 resources that they're required to, for
10 example? A really important position on top
11 of the social workers.
12 So I'm trying to get a sense of what
13 is incorporated into that request.
14 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Well, the
15 extension of the Hurrell-Harring settlement
16 statewide is all criminal cases where
17 somebody's entitled to counsel and
18 financially eligible for assigned counsel.
19 And so that would cover any specialty
20 court that's a criminal court. Which tends
21 to be the -- you know, substance abuse
22 courts, the opioid courts, the mental health
23 courts. So that involves people arrested for
24 a criminal offense.
578
1 For the Family Courts, it's a little
2 bit different. And so, you know, you can
3 face a situation where somebody has, you
4 know, both a pending criminal case and a
5 Family Court case, in it might be an
6 integrated court, and they're going to have
7 one attorney, the criminal attorney, who's
8 going to have sufficient resources because of
9 everything this Legislature has done in
10 supporting our work to implement the
11 settlement and extend it -- but then the
12 Family Court attorney on the Family Court
13 proceeding isn't going to have the same
14 resources.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Right. So the
16 request is to -- but that's not --
17 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: The additional
18 6.5 million in Aid for Localities for
19 improved-quality parental representation.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Got it. And
21 that was the other piece you were speaking
22 with Assemblymember Lavine about.
23 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: Right.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: And with
579
1 respect to the resource coordinators and the
2 investigators for the criminal courts, I had
3 heard earlier a little piece. But does this
4 funding request also cover those types of
5 services and positions?
6 ILS DIRECTOR WARTH: So our funding
7 can pay for staff or people associated with
8 the public defender. Right? But we can't --
9 we don't pay for court staff.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Got it. Thank
11 you so much.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you for
13 testifying. And I think that our chairs did
14 a good job of grilling you, so we covered a
15 lot of territory. Thank you for being with
16 us tonight.
17 And for others who have been waiting
18 patiently, we are now shifting into the
19 second part of this hearing. And in the
20 second part, with non-governmental
21 representatives, we have panels that people
22 have been put on.
23 Each individual will get three minutes
24 to testify. Then legislators will have three
580
1 minutes in total to ask questions of the
2 panel. So hopefully that's not too
3 complicated. And the panels aren't that many
4 people. We have two or three -- oh, on one
5 or two we have four reps.
6 So I know some of you are thinking,
7 Will I ever leave for dinner? Maybe not.
8 But we're trying to make sure that everybody
9 has a chance to testify and that legislators
10 have a chance to ask a few questions.
11 And again, for anyone watching,
12 everyone is welcome to submit written
13 testimony, even if you feel that you don't
14 have a chance to go over all your critical
15 points in your presentation. Or you might
16 not have gotten a slot to testify. I'm
17 getting questions even today, now, can people
18 be added to today's hearing. The answer is
19 no, of course.
20 But you can submit written testimony.
21 And every legislator and all of the staff and
22 the central staff that work on the budget on
23 behalf of the Assembly and the Senate do get
24 all of this.
581
1 So now I would like to call up
2 Panel A: The Vera Institute of Justice,
3 Shayna Kessler, senior planner; and Neighbors
4 Link, Karin Anderson Ponzer, director,
5 Neighbors Link Community Law Practice.
6 Are both of our panelists here with
7 us? I see them, yes. All right, so let's --
8 in the order you were called up.
9 Hi, Shayna. Take your mute off and
10 please testify.
11 MS. KESSLER: Good evening. Thank you
12 very much, Madam Chair.
13 And thank you to the full committee
14 for your time and perseverance today.
15 My name is Shayna Kessler. I am a
16 senior planner with the Vera Institute of
17 Justice. I am pleased to testify today in
18 support of two areas in which Vera leads work
19 in New York: Legal representation for
20 immigrants, and pretrial reforms in the
21 criminal legal system.
22 Regarding immigration, we support an
23 increased investment in New York's
24 immigration legal services, specifically a
582
1 $15.3 million investment in the Liberty
2 Defense Project and a $9.1 million investment
3 in the Office for New Americans, totaling
4 $24.4 million. This would support critical
5 legal services for immigrants facing
6 deportation, including the pioneering
7 New York Immigrant Family Unity Project, or
8 NYIFUP.
9 New York's investment in such
10 representation provides a beacon of hope for
11 those torn from their homes by immigration
12 enforcement, which continues to be an
13 enormous risk.
14 Immigrant New Yorkers are deeply woven
15 into the fabric of our state. One in three
16 New York children has an immigrant parent,
17 and more than one-quarter of our workforce is
18 foreign-born. During the pandemic,
19 immigrants performed work that sustains our
20 economy and safeguards public health, and
21 they'll continue to do so long after it ends.
22 Providing lawyers to people is key.
23 Immigrants in detention with lawyers are
24 10 times more likely to prove the right to
583
1 remain in the United States than those
2 without lawyers. Governor Hochul included
3 $20 million in her Executive Budget for these
4 services, but that falls short of the need,
5 and thousands are still forced into detention
6 and immigration court without access to
7 counsel.
8 Just this month we're seeing the worst
9 COVID-19 outbreak in ICE detention since the
10 pandemic began. We call on the Legislature
11 to increase funding to $24.4 million this
12 year and simultaneously to pass the Access to
13 Representation Act, which would establish a
14 permanent right to representation for people
15 facing deportation in our state. The public
16 understands that this is the fair thing to
17 do, and polling shows that 93 percent of
18 New Yorkers support government-funded lawyers
19 for people in immigration court.
20 Regarding the public safety budget, we
21 appreciate the Governor's proposal to triple
22 Executive funding for community-based gun
23 violence responses and for $10 million in new
24 funding to support pretrial services. These
584
1 represent an important investment in
2 evidence-based approaches to gun violence and
3 criminal legal system involvement.
4 We hope the Legislature will continue
5 its long-time commitment to these issues by
6 providing additional funding, especially for
7 pretrial services. We also urge that this
8 money go to non-law enforcement entities that
9 are better suited to support the success of
10 individuals and communities.
11 Thank you very much for your time and
12 support for these issues.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 And Shayna Kessler -- I'm sorry, that
15 was Shayna Kessler.
16 Karin Anderson, excuse me. It's
17 getting a little late.
18 MS. PONZER: Absolutely. Thank you so
19 much for the opportunity to testify this
20 evening.
21 My name is Karin Anderson Ponzer, and
22 I'm the director of the Neighbors Link
23 Community Law Practice. The mission of
24 Neighbors Link is to make the whole community
585
1 stronger through the healthy integration of
2 immigrants.
3 Neighbors Link is grateful to the
4 Assembly and the Senate for convening this
5 important hearing today. We've long been
6 vocal advocates for access to legal
7 representation for immigrants in removal
8 proceedings and in applications for
9 immigration benefits.
10 We urge the inclusion of 24.4 million
11 in funding for immigration legal services in
12 the fiscal '22-'23 New York State budget.
13 Our legal team represents hundreds of
14 immigrant New Yorkers every year in
15 immigration matters ranging from deportation
16 defense to naturalization. But we still must
17 turn away many more because our attorneys and
18 our Department of Justice-accredited
19 representatives simply can't handle any more
20 cases.
21 Our community-based organization has
22 witnessed the devastation that immigrant
23 New Yorkers have experienced in recent years
24 due to harsh immigration policies. But we
586
1 also know the transformative power of
2 immigration law to protect the vulnerable and
3 to keep families together and transform
4 lives -- if and when an individual facing the
5 immigration system has access to
6 representation.
7 Our clients are low-to-moderate-income
8 New Yorkers who are balancing jobs, family,
9 and a lot of other responsibilities with
10 limited resources. They're the backbone of
11 the communities where we live and work.
12 They're healthcare workers, food service
13 workers, teachers, child and healthcare
14 providers, construction, building and trade
15 workers, and so many more.
16 When they are able to achieve
17 permanent legal status, naturalization as
18 U.S. citizens, and reunite with families, our
19 communities are stronger. But when their
20 families are torn apart by deportation,
21 separated by delays in immigration
22 application processing, and preyed upon by
23 unscrupulous practitioners, our communities
24 are weaker and we all feel the pain.
587
1 The experience of the past 10 years
2 demonstrates that immigration law will always
3 impact the lives of New Yorkers, whether it's
4 through overbroad civil enforcement that
5 tears families apart or changes in federal
6 law that may create new opportunities to
7 achieve legal status.
8 Whether it's through barriers to
9 federal benefits like the CARES Act funding,
10 because of a lack of immigration status --
11 which made it impossible for many people to
12 access those funds -- or the urgent need of
13 New Yorkers that we see these days for legal
14 assistance to help friends and family who
15 fled persecution and violence in their
16 countries of origin, robust funding for
17 immigration legal services is an investment
18 that makes all New York stronger.
19 Neighbors Link endorses the continued
20 funding of the LDP and ONA, and the expansion
21 of funding to 24.4 million.
22 Thank you so much.
23 CHAIR KRUEGER: Excuse me. I see
24 Senator Pete Harckham's hand up.
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1 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Thank you,
2 Madam Chair, and thank you both for your
3 testimony. Thanks for bearing with us so
4 late in the evening.
5 And Karin, always great to see you.
6 I'm proud that Neighbors Link is in my
7 district and Assemblyman Burdick's district.
8 You both spoke of the $24 million and
9 the need for more funding. We've been
10 speaking tonight with a number of folks about
11 structural issues with the legal system as it
12 pertains to our most vulnerable. So is this
13 just a fiscal issue for you and your partner
14 agencies? Or are there other structural
15 things that we need to be doing on New York's
16 side of the ledger to improve legal services
17 for our immigrant communities?
18 I know part of it is dealing with
19 federal law, but there are still some state
20 issues as well. So are there other things we
21 can do to be helpful? And that question goes
22 to both of you.
23 MS. KESSLER: Thank you very much. I
24 can begin -- and Karin, happy for you to
589
1 follow up.
2 Thank you very much, Senator, for the
3 question, and I think it's a terrific one and
4 thank you for considering it. There's
5 certainly an enormous need for funding for
6 legal and social services. There's
7 insufficient access to not just attorneys but
8 social worker support and a wide variety of
9 things.
10 And so there's a bill, the Access to
11 Representation Act, which would at the
12 structural level really advance New York's
13 leadership in this area by establishing a
14 right to representation for people in
15 New York facing deportation. And that bill
16 would -- the funding that we're seeking would
17 do a significant amount of good, but it
18 wouldn't come close to meeting the full need
19 of all the people that go unrepresented, of
20 all the people that go without the full scope
21 of services that they should have when
22 they're facing permanent family separation
23 and deportation.
24 And so, you know, passing the
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1 Access to Representation Act would advance
2 New York's leadership and really -- and
3 ensure that no one in New York faces the
4 terrifying prospect of deportation without an
5 attorney. And so I think that's really the
6 next step.
7 There's some great work that can be
8 done through the budget by funding this work,
9 and we very much look forward to advancing
10 the Access to Representation Act and
11 advancing New York's leadership on that
12 level.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 And next I see --
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: -- Assemblyman
16 Burdick.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, you're back.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. The
19 microwave is working.
20 I see Assemblymember Burdick, to close
21 on this panel.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Yes, thank you.
23 And thank you both for your testimony.
24 And Neighbors Link, without any
591
1 question, is an absolute gem in the district
2 that I represent in Mount Kisco -- but they
3 operate, of course -- you operate throughout
4 Westchester County, and you do some
5 trailblazing work. And I was pleased to be
6 able to get some funding to Neighbors Link
7 earlier this year.
8 And I just -- a couple questions. One
9 is on the budgetary request. Do you know
10 what agency that would be -- is that going to
11 be -- what agency would that be a part of a
12 budget to? Because I may have missed it in
13 your testimony, but I didn't see what part of
14 the budget it would relate to.
15 MS. PONZER: The Office for
16 New Americans.
17 Shayna, if you would like to speak to
18 that.
19 MS. KESSLER: That's correct. It's
20 under the Office for New Americans. There's
21 two lines --
22 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: But there are
23 two parts, right? One is the -- that there
24 are two different asks on the money side.
592
1 Are they both to the Office for
2 New Americans?
3 MS. KESSLER: That's correct.
4 Yes. They're both --
5 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Okay. That's
6 fine. I just need to know when we're putting
7 together budget letters and that sort of
8 thing to try to get support for it.
9 And the Access for Representation Act,
10 do you have any idea how that's coming along?
11 I assume that there might be other states in
12 the country that have similar statutes, and
13 could you tell us a little bit about that?
14 MS. KESSLER: Certainly, yes. This is
15 a growing movement across the country. There
16 is a bill -- Maryland is the other state with
17 the most active bill on this level. Colorado
18 is considering one, and several other
19 states -- there's a total of eight states
20 right now that fund deportation defense. All
21 of them followed New York's lead in doing so.
22 And really the sort of next step in
23 this movement is the leadership of New York
24 in passing the Access to Representation Act.
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1 And this is really, you know, to both serve
2 New Yorkers facing deportation and providing
3 really critical services to New Yorkers, but
4 also really modeling for the federal
5 government that it should be the federal
6 government stepping up to foot this bill.
7 And it will be with the leadership of
8 New York and the states that are following
9 New York, I believe, that will ultimately
10 make this happen at the federal level and
11 ensure that everybody does have access to
12 representation.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: And lastly, and
14 my time is running out, but then it would be
15 made -- by putting it in here, then, it would
16 be grant funding that would then be available
17 to agencies like Neighbors Link, correct?
18 MS. KESSLER: That's exactly right.
19 Yes.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Okay. Thank you
21 very much, and keep up the good work you're
22 doing.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you,
24 ladies, both for being with us and hanging
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1 out all day. Although at least you don't
2 have to sit in a conference room all day.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We have --
4 we do have another.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, you have
6 another --
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblymember
8 Kelles --
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assemblymember
10 Kelles likes to come in last.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: I apologize. I
12 like to listen to the conversation. I learn
13 so much from it.
14 But I will be quick. I actually both
15 wanted to thank you both on the work that
16 you're doing. And my deepest apologies, but
17 I'm pivoting slightly. I support -- I'm just
18 going to put that out there -- I will
19 certainly fight -- Chris, I'll second what he
20 said.
21 But Shayna, I actually wanted to speak
22 with you very briefly about a conversation
23 that I had earlier today with OCA with
24 respect to a report from the Vera Institute
595
1 on the worsening of the racial disparities in
2 bail being set that has been significantly
3 increased, actually, for people of color,
4 particularly men of color, and get a sense
5 from you of what needs to be -- what
6 information do we need.
7 What needs to be done, in your
8 opinion, from the research that you did? How
9 can we address that issue?
10 MS. KESSLER: I will say I will have
11 to refer you to my colleagues whose expertise
12 is in bail. My expertise is on the
13 immigration side.
14 But what I can say with certainty is
15 that standing firm on bail reform -- that the
16 reforms were solid. We are grateful that
17 they were enacted, and we certainly support
18 their continuation. And that will be what
19 will enable us to ensure that we have the
20 policy in place to address the racial
21 disparities in the system.
22 Apologies that I can't speak in detail
23 to that report.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Don't worry
596
1 about it.
2 MS. KESSLER: But certainly I will
3 inform my colleagues and refer them to you as
4 well.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Wonderful. If
6 they could reach out, that would be amazing.
7 I have worked with your institute for
8 many years as a county legislator as well, so
9 I know you cover many issues. So no worries
10 that you are not an expert in every single
11 one of them. I know you work with a great
12 team.
13 So thank you to both of you. I
14 relinquish my last minute.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. And now --
16 I just don't want to cut off anybody else
17 accidentally. No? All right.
18 Now I will thank these two testifiers
19 and go on to Panel B, Legal Services of the
20 Hudson Valley, Rachel Halperin, CEO; New York
21 State Coalition Against Domestic Violence,
22 Joan Gerhardt, director of public policy and
23 advocacy; Treatment Not Jail Coalition,
24 Anthony Maud; and Families Civil Liberties
597
1 Union, Sebastian Doggart, executive director.
2 Good evening, everyone. Okay. Is
3 Legal Services' Rachel Halperin in here?
4 Yes, she is. I'll start with you.
5 Good evening.
6 MS. HALPERIN: Good evening. I'm
7 Rachel Halperin. I'm the CEO of Legal
8 Services of the Hudson Valley. We provide
9 comprehensive civil legal services in seven
10 counties in the Hudson Valley.
11 I'm also here tonight on behalf of the
12 Legal Services Coalition of New York, which
13 is a membership organization of over
14 50 civil/legal services providers throughout
15 New York State.
16 We are requesting that New York State
17 dedicate state funding to ensure the
18 continuity and sustainability of New York's
19 legal services for crime victims, which is in
20 jeopardy because of the decline in federal
21 VOCA funds coming into New York State.
22 In 2018, OVS issued an RFP for
23 attorney services for crime victims and
24 awarded $16.7 million a year to over
598
1 60 providers, which created an extensive
2 network of civil legal services support for
3 crime victims. As a result of this funding,
4 for example, my organization created 20 new
5 positions and has provided legal services to
6 almost 1200 crime victims in close to 2,000
7 cases since 2018.
8 Last month, OVS notified all the
9 providers under this contract that the
10 contract was going to be terminated one year
11 early, effective September 2022. OVS did
12 explain that was because of a decline in
13 federal VOCA funds to New York State and they
14 could no longer afford these contracts.
15 OVS invited current providers to
16 compete in an RFP that was issued this month
17 that lumps all three of the OVS programs
18 together so we would compete against each
19 other for a smaller pot of money.
20 Immediately upon receipt of this notice,
21 LSHV, like other providers, had to close our
22 intakes.
23 These legal cases in custody,
24 immigration, divorce, orders of protection,
599
1 take months and years. And as attorneys,
2 we're ethically obligated -- once we enter
3 our appearance, we have to provide
4 representation to clients despite losing our
5 funding. We also put a hiring freeze on any
6 open positions.
7 Legal Services Coalition, in
8 coordination with NYSCADV, who you're going
9 to hear from after me, met with the
10 Governor's staff prior to her releasing her
11 budget to explain this issue and encourage
12 her to please put funding in the budget to
13 keep providers whole. Unfortunately, this
14 funding was not included in the budget.
15 Now is not the time to cut back on
16 these critical and life-saving supportive
17 services. You've heard all day about the
18 increase in crime and gun violence. It is
19 not the time to cut services to victims of
20 crime. Respectfully, we ask the Legislature
21 to ensure adequate funding for all providers
22 serving crime victims under the OVS legal
23 services funding for the next two years so
24 that services can remain intact and steady.
600
1 And finally, we support our colleagues
2 at NYSCADV and their advocacy to keep all
3 victim service organizations whole in all the
4 OVS organizations they have.
5 Thank you.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
7 Next, Joan Gerhardt from NYSCADV.
8 MS. GERHARDT: Thank you. Thank you,
9 Chair.
10 Yes, that's the New York State
11 Coalition Against Domestic Violence, and we
12 were established more than 40 years ago as
13 the statewide nonprofit organization of local
14 domestic violence service providers committed
15 to preventing and ending domestic violence.
16 In New York, nearly 100 domestic
17 violence programs operate 250 locations
18 around the state. NYSCADV is recognized by
19 the U.S. Department of Health and Human
20 Services and the U.S. Department of Justice
21 as the information clearinghouse and resource
22 center on domestic violence for New York
23 State. We provide education, training, and
24 technical assistance to service providers and
601
1 support policies to enhance domestic violence
2 intervention and prevention.
3 What makes this Executive Budget so
4 troubling is its funding cuts to victim
5 services and new government mandates. Here
6 are four specific concerns. First, OVS is
7 cutting funding for hundreds of victim
8 assistance providers in the next round of
9 awards -- providers that offer essential
10 services to victims of domestic violence,
11 sexual violence, child abuse, and many other
12 crimes.
13 These cuts are due to decreases in
14 New York's federal VOCA grant. Despite
15 New York State's surplus, and with millions
16 of dollars available in pandemic aid, there
17 is no proposed solution to these cuts in the
18 Executive Budget. Other states have
19 implemented fixes to protect their victim
20 serice providers -- New York has not.
21 New York's VOCA grant is $140 million less
22 today than it was just four years ago.
23 We are therefore asking for
24 $140 million in the state budget and again
602
1 next year. In total, the federal Crime
2 Victims Fund, which fuels state VOCA grants,
3 is expected to return to prior levels. One
4 hundred forty million dollars represents
5 0.06 percent of the proposed $216 billion
6 budget and will ensure the continuity of
7 these critical services.
8 Second, we have several concerns about
9 Part H in the PPGG budget, which would
10 mandate a 40-hour training for all
11 DV advocates. We ask that you remove the
12 proposal from the budget. Domestic violence
13 programs are finding it hard to recruit and
14 train new employees because of high turnover,
15 but creating new mandates and increasing
16 state oversight will not ease this burden.
17 Frankly, when providers are facing
18 significant funding cuts, the state should be
19 focused on making programs whole so they can
20 retain advocates, not placing more burdens on
21 them. We were not asked to collaborate on
22 this proposal despite our federally
23 designated role as a domestic violence
24 resource center for the state.
603
1 Third, we ask the Legislature to
2 increase the TANF set-aside for
3 nonresidential DV services. The Executive
4 Budget returns the set-aside to $3 million,
5 the same level it was when it was first
6 proposed in 2000.
7 So we're asking for $6 million, and
8 we're also seeking to maintain $5 million of
9 new Aid to Localities funding for an
10 OCFS-directed flexible-funding pilot project.
11 Thank you very much.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
13 Our next testifier is Anthony Maud. I
14 believe I'm -- I'm hopefully saying that
15 correctly.
16 MR. MAUD: Yes. My name is Anthony
17 Maud, and I'm 35 years old. I'm a proud
18 member of the Treatment Not Jail Coalition,
19 which is what I'm here today to discuss.
20 I grew up in Buffalo with a
21 developmental and learning disability,
22 including dyslexia and ADHD. As a child, it
23 always took me time to catch on to things. I
24 was also emotionally disabled due to being a
604
1 victim of physical and sexual abuse by a
2 trusted family member.
3 I was in group homes from ages 9 to
4 12, at which time I experienced additional
5 abuse. My father was severely addicted to
6 crack cocaine, which trickled down to me as a
7 teenager. I turned to drugs as a way to
8 cope. I have a record and have spent time in
9 prison, mostly due to my drug use and
10 untreated mental health issues.
11 Notably, despite having been through
12 the criminal legal system many times, I have
13 never been offered the opportunity to
14 participate in court-ordered diversion.
15 I'm not alone. Our justice system
16 currently does not provide enough
17 non-incarceratory opportunities for people
18 like me who are struggling with mental health
19 and substance use issues.
20 Our default is always jail and prison,
21 but it doesn't address the root causes that
22 bring people to engage in criminal behavior.
23 In fact, studies consistently show that jail
24 and prison exacerbate these underlying issues
605
1 and make people more likely to reoffend.
2 Treatment courts, as specialized court
3 parts that allow judges to mandate
4 alternatives to incarceration, are shown to
5 work. They are better at healing those who
6 are struggling with substance use and mental
7 health issues. They are better at breaking
8 the cycle of recidivism and promoting public
9 safety. And finally, they're substantially
10 more cost-effective.
11 Unfortunately, only a small fraction
12 of those charged with crimes are eligible for
13 these types of courts. The Treatment Not
14 Jail Act subsequently expands access to
15 courts by involving existing law, CPL 216,
16 which in 2009 created drug courts in every
17 county in New York.
18 TNJ extends eligibility to those with
19 mental health concerns and moves away from
20 arbitrary charge restrictions, instead
21 allowing judges to accept those they
22 determine would benefit from treatment and
23 whose treatment would benefit the public.
24 The TNJ Act also makes significant
606
1 improvements to the model outlined in 2009,
2 building on the research that we have learned
3 over the last 13 years to implement a
4 treatment court program rooted in harm
5 reduction, due process, and procedural
6 justice principles.
7 Please note that speaking today is the
8 single most scariest thing I have done in my
9 life. But I'm doing this to help others who
10 will get in trouble due to their own genetic
11 backgrounds.
12 I welcome questions.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 And our last testifier on this panel
15 is Sebastian Doggart, from the Families Civil
16 Liberties Union.
17 MR. DOGGART: Good evening. I am
18 Sebastian Doggart, executive director of the
19 Family Civil Liberties Union, an independent,
20 nonpartisan, nonprofit group assisting
21 families and kids across the U.S.
22 Four years ago, the FCLU testified
23 before this same body. We presented
24 extensive evidence to you to show why the
607
1 New York Unified Court System is causing
2 untold harm to our children.
3 We called on you to deny Lawrence
4 Marks' funding requests until independent,
5 effective oversight of the judiciary was
6 established. We warned you of specific
7 judges and court officials, including
8 Mr. Marks, and showed how they were all
9 perpetrating fraud, waste, and abuse on the
10 public. You ignored all those warnings.
11 Hoping we are not a 21st-century
12 Cassandra, the FCLU is now here again to warn
13 you of the harm being inflicted by this
14 broken judiciary on millions of New York
15 families. Our request is that you deny the
16 funding requests in their entirety by both
17 the UCS and Commission on Judicial Conduct.
18 We also ask that you fund cameras in
19 courts; insist on a radical review of the
20 corrupt Attorney for the Child program; enact
21 a total overhaul of the procedures for
22 appointing or electing judges; and work to
23 end the toxic Title IV-D program that is
24 tearing families apart.
608
1 Your task is to protect the public,
2 and that means to ensure that there is
3 effective oversight on expenditure. You have
4 failed in this task dismally. For the last
5 five years, the Center for Public Integrity
6 has given the State of New York's judicial
7 accountability a failing grade of F, ranking
8 48th out of 50 states in terms of judicial
9 accountability.
10 The organization which you fund to
11 oversee the judiciary is the Commission on
12 Judicial Conduct, the CJC. It is a sham.
13 Every complaint presented by private citizens
14 is dismissed with a boilerplate letter. And
15 guess who is on the CJC letterhead? Robert
16 Tembeckjian, to whom you gave a plum position
17 as a witness today. Robert Tembeckjian, who
18 has ruled the CJC, unelected, for a
19 Putin-style 17 years. Robert Tembeckjian,
20 who you have rewarded with ever-rising wages,
21 over $200,000 due to him the next year, not
22 including add-ons.
23 Of the hundreds of criminal complaints
24 filed by the FCLU, the CJC has investigated
609
1 precisely none. The CJC has shown it does
2 not need reform, it needs to be shut down.
3 Tembeckjian needs to be investigated and
4 audited, and a new judicial oversight body
5 set up that is truly independent and made up
6 at least partly by non-attorneys. The foxes
7 cannot be allowed to run the henhouse.
8 Now the consequences of Tembeckjian's
9 negligence have been tragic. In the report
10 we submitted to you four years ago, we warned
11 you of the conduct of a rogue Suffolk County
12 judge, Hope Zimmerman. It was Zimmerman who
13 willfully ignored the pleas of a mother that
14 her 7-year-old child Thomas Valva was in
15 mortal danger.
16 Siding with the father, an NYPD cop,
17 Zimmerman ignored ample evidence of imminent
18 danger. The result? Tommy Valva was left in
19 a freezing garage overnight and died of
20 hypothermia. If Tembeckjian had recommended
21 Judge Zimmerman's suspension earlier,
22 Tommy Valva would still be alive today.
23 We also warned you and the CJC of the
24 abusive practices of Douglas Hoffman, the
610
1 supervising judge for the New York Family
2 Court since 2009. Hoffman is being sued for
3 sexual harassment by his own court attorney,
4 Alexis Marquez.
5 In an age of Me Too, when Governor
6 Hochul and many in this Legislature have
7 called on us to believe women, you'd have
8 thought that Judge Hoffman would at least
9 have been suspended until the outcome of a
10 trial with independent investigation, right?
11 Not at all. Hoffman, a friend of
12 Mr. Tembeckjian, has continued to sit pretty
13 on the bench and even had his wages
14 increased.
15 The allegations here are strikingly
16 similar to those which brought down
17 Governor Cuomo.
18 Why does this Legislature apply double
19 standards to the executive and judicial
20 branches of government? This Legislature
21 needs to do a line-by-line audit of
22 Mr. Marks' application. That budget is a
23 blatant attempt to defraud the public. Why
24 are the salaries of judges not identified
611
1 anywhere there? Where in this budget are the
2 generous fringe benefits they reward you to
3 lavish upon them?
4 In Mr. Marks' budget, no reasons are
5 given for renewed funding of the appalling
6 Attorney for the Child program --
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Your time is up.
8 Thank you very much.
9 MR. DOGGART: I'm wrapping up now.
10 We ask you to please read our detailed
11 2022 report on the New York court system,
12 which provides evidence on why you need to
13 deny the Judiciary's demand for funding, to
14 shut down the CJC, and order Mr. Tembeckjian
15 to fund cameras in court. To radically
16 reform --
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Your time is
18 up, sir.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Your time is up.
20 Thank you.
21 Zellnor Myrie for the first question.
22 MR. DOGGART: -- tearing families
23 apart.
24 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you.
612
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you,
2 Sebastian.
3 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you,
4 Madam Chair.
5 Thank you to all of our panelists, and
6 a special thanks to Anthony for your
7 testimony and for being vulnerable and
8 sharing your story. That is very much
9 appreciated.
10 This is really for anyone on the
11 panel. You know, I empathize with the
12 request that you have made regarding the lack
13 of resources that you have to do your job.
14 We've introduced a bill that has to deal with
15 the Victim Compensation Fund and fair access
16 to it. We know that many individuals who are
17 unfortunately victims of crimes do not take
18 advantage of the resources that are available
19 to them because of the current structure and
20 the requirements that they either interface
21 with law enforcement or the short window in
22 which they can apply after the crime, the
23 reporting requirements, et cetera.
24 And I'm wondering if you can talk
613
1 about whether you are supportive of this
2 effort or you can speak to the challenges
3 that victims face in getting the resources
4 that they need.
5 MS. GERHARDT: I would be happy to
6 step in on that, Senator.
7 Yes, we're very supportive of the
8 bill. We think the more resources that can
9 go to all victims in New York State, the
10 better. They just don't have enough
11 resources.
12 And I think, you know, the very
13 compensation reimbursements that you're
14 talking about are the same VOCA grants that I
15 was talking about in my testimony. The VOCA
16 that comes into New York State is really
17 split into two buckets of money: Assistance
18 grants that go out to service providers, and
19 compensation that goes out directly to
20 victims. So I think, hand in hand, both of
21 these buckets are so critical to New York
22 State, and the compensation is working very
23 well. I think people are getting their
24 resources.
614
1 I think there's another proposal that
2 the Governor has to bump some of the
3 compensation reimbursement for private
4 property, with which we also agree. So I
5 think the more that we can get compensation
6 reimbursement to victims of all types, that's
7 great.
8 But I think right now our focus has to
9 be on the grants to victim service providers,
10 because we're talking about significant cuts
11 to the very organizations that help those
12 victims. Whether it's legal services, mental
13 health, medical, domestic violence advocacy,
14 it runs the gamut for all types of victims,
15 and it's something the state really needs to
16 address urgently.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assemblymembers?
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes, we do
19 have -- we have Assemblyman Ra first, and
20 then Assemblyman Walczyk, and then
21 Assemblyman Epstein. Three minutes each for
22 these members.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you, Chair.
24 I just had a question for Ms. Gerhardt
615
1 regarding this training requirement proposal.
2 I'm just wondering, you know, if you know
3 of -- relative to something similar in other
4 states, or whether there's any type of
5 standard that may be something that should be
6 advocated for as an alternative to this.
7 MS. GERHARDT: That's a great
8 question, Assemblymember.
9 There are many states that have
10 training and certification programs for
11 advocates. We in New York State already have
12 requirements in our regulations for domestic
13 violence advocates, but all of those states
14 rely on the coalitions or other domestic
15 violence service providers for that training.
16 And the reasoning is New York State is
17 the only state in the country that I'm aware
18 of that has a state-level agency focused on
19 domestic violence, which we really
20 appreciate.
21 But what we don't want to see is, you
22 know, with so much need out there with
23 respect to survivors, and so much support
24 that domestic violence service providers
616
1 need, we really don't need to be duplicating
2 efforts.
3 And NYSCADV, as the state coalition,
4 does a tremendous amount of training and TA,
5 as coalitions do across the country, and as
6 we are federally designated to do. So we'd
7 rather see the state-level agency do a bunch
8 of other things that are frankly already in
9 their enabling statute -- updating policies
10 for other state agencies and counties,
11 employee awareness programs, training for
12 court personnel and judges, which the
13 Governor's Blue Ribbon Commission on Forensic
14 Evaluators just called for.
15 So there is a critical need for a lot
16 of support. We just don't think it's wise to
17 have the state agency focus on training when
18 it's already happening throughout other
19 entities in New York State.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Great. Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
22 We go to Assemblyman Walczyk.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Yeah, my first
24 question -- thank you, Madam Chair -- my
617
1 first question is for Joan as well.
2 I was just looking at some crime
3 statistics statewide, some of the reports
4 from our cities showing over the last few
5 years what direction -- and we know, we've
6 seen large reports about crime waves, but
7 something that really stuck out to me was,
8 well, homicides are going up, shooting
9 victims, burglaries, grand theft auto has
10 doubled -- all of these things.
11 You have seen a decline in reports of
12 rape across New York State. How do you
13 square that? What's -- what do you think is
14 responsible for that? And what should we be
15 concerned about right now?
16 MS. GERHARDT: I'm not really familiar
17 with the decline in reports of rape. That
18 might be a question better posed to my sister
19 coalition, the New York State Coalition
20 Against Sexual Assault.
21 What I can tell you is throughout the
22 pandemic, certainly, demand for domestic
23 violence services increased. Because I think
24 we have seen a lot of increases in reports of
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1 violence in domestic settings, and that of
2 course has to do with a lot of people working
3 from home, not having the escape of working
4 outside of the house or the potential to meet
5 with advocates outside of the home.
6 So, you know, in the early days of the
7 pandemic, with respect to domestic violence,
8 we were actually referring to it as the
9 pandemic within the pandemic because we saw
10 such increases in the number of police
11 reports, calls to hotlines -- really
12 throughout the entire state.
13 So I can't quite square the data point
14 you're suggesting about the decrease in rape,
15 but I offer you the crime statistic increase
16 in domestic violence.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Yeah, neither
18 can I. I appreciate that perspective.
19 Is Mr. Doggart still with us?
20 MR. DOGGART: Yes, I am. Yes, I am.
21 Hi.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: I was just
23 wondering -- right at the top of your report,
24 Dr. Steven Baskerville said, "The family
619
1 courts are operating a kidnapping and
2 extortion racket." What are you talking
3 about, good sir?
4 I'll yield the rest of my time.
5 MR. DOGGART: Oh. Well, the family
6 court had become a racket in which there is a
7 huge amount of money going on, and the
8 victims of this are the kids.
9 Let me give you one example of
10 what's the -- part of the racket, which is
11 where the Legislature is in fact a
12 beneficiary of it. Your General Fund accepts
13 millions of dollars a year in federal funds
14 provided under the Title IV-D program of the
15 Social Security Act. And this provides
16 matching funds from all child support orders
17 made by family judges -- family court judges.
18 Now, that in turn incentivizes those
19 judges to always allocate a winner and a
20 loser, with that loser almost always being
21 the monied parent. This scheme tears
22 families apart. And it's a racket because
23 the Democrat -- or the judges, often
24 Democrats, are helping their Democrat
620
1 colleagues to earn huge amounts of money
2 through the Title IV-D money -- program.
3 So one of the -- and the consequences
4 of that, as we've heard -- and if you don't
5 pay the child support because of these
6 orders -- and I have seen orders which are
7 300 percent of someone's salary -- these
8 people go to jail. And many of them then
9 commit suicide. It's a terrible cycle. But
10 it's all there because of the money.
11 So that's why we call on the
12 Legislature to voluntarily withdraw from the
13 toxic Title IV-D program. There are many
14 other ways that this corruption is going on,
15 and it's a racket, and Dr. Baskerville is
16 correct in saying that --
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
18 Your time is up.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Time is up.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I see that
21 there is a Senator?
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senator --
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes, I see that
621
1 Senator Bailey has joined us. Thank you.
2 Senator Bailey.
3 SENATOR BAILEY: Thank you,
4 Madam Chair.
5 I just wanted to express my
6 appreciation for the Legal Services of the
7 Hudson Valley, being a representative of
8 Westchester County.
9 Thank you for the work that you do,
10 not just in your testimony but in ensuring
11 that we continue to provide excellent legal
12 services, specifically in the area of the
13 City of Mount Vernon, around the housing that
14 you do. It does not go unnoticed.
15 And Anthony, thank you for your
16 courage and for being willing to tell your
17 story today. It is very difficult to do that
18 in such public forum, and I just wanted to
19 say thank you for your bravery in doing so.
20 It takes a lot to do that.
21 And look, I just wanted to, I guess,
22 make a long statement in that I appreciate,
23 you know, you all taking your time for this
24 testimony.
622
1 But mostly, Rachel, I just want to say
2 thank you. Especially in Mount Vernon, in
3 the four square miles of Mount Vernon
4 obviously we've had some concerns with the
5 housing issues. And I just wanted to thank
6 Legal Services of the Hudson Valley for
7 really stepping up, and I figured this would
8 be the optimal time.
9 Madam Chair, I yield the rest of my
10 time.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
12 much.
13 MS. HALPERIN: Thank you,
14 Senator Bailey.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I think we have
16 Assemblymember Epstein.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Epstein, yes.
18 Mr. Epstein, who's the final Assemblymember.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you,
20 Chairs.
21 Yes. I also -- Anthony, thank you for
22 your testimony. I deeply appreciate it.
23 And Rachel, I just -- kind of on the
24 civil legal services front, I'm just trying
623
1 to figure out where the holes are, you know.
2 Because I know, you know, we've seen a lot
3 more money for housing representation and --
4 on the ground and in your offices across the
5 state. And, you know, obviously you talk to
6 other legal service partners.
7 Where do you see the biggest need, and
8 where do you see us not really having really
9 stepped up to kind of meet those needs?
10 MS. HALPERIN: Thank you. That's a
11 great question.
12 I mean, I think overall we have been
13 very happy, the civil legal services
14 community, with the Governor's budget. The
15 additional funds for tenant defense were
16 obviously much needed, she put money in there
17 for our foreclosure -- our HOPP program -- as
18 well as our Disability Advocacy Program,
19 which is why we were just very surprised that
20 with -- we know there is a focus and that
21 people understand the value civil legal
22 services brings to communities and the
23 importance of the work that we do -- that
24 this statewide network that was just built in
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1 2018 of legal services attorneys supporting
2 crime victims would be dismantled, you know,
3 a couple of years after it was built.
4 And this is really essential work that
5 we all do across the state. Victims of
6 consumer fraud, of identity theft, victims of
7 domestic violence, sexual assault, elder
8 abuse, bankruptcy -- this is really, soup to
9 nuts, supporting crime victims in our state.
10 And so we are very concerned that this
11 funding was just abruptly terminated with no
12 plans to keep providers whole and enable us
13 to keep services going.
14 Just additionally -- this is a bit off
15 topic, but since you asked, the LSAF funds,
16 which are always very needed, we are asking
17 this year, the Legal Services Coalition, for
18 funding to be added to the LSAF for civil
19 legal services. So rather than money being
20 transferred from that to general revenue,
21 it's to keep it in LSAF to support civil
22 legal services. It's $9.2 million, is the
23 coalition's ask in that.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And how would
625
1 that be distributed around the state? Do you
2 guys have a formula?
3 Because I know the LSAF funding
4 doesn't fund all the providers around the
5 state.
6 MS. HALPERIN: Right. So we would be
7 asking for that new money to then be RFP'd.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you.
9 MS. HALPERIN: Thank you.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
11 Just one more question from myself to
12 Joan Gerhardt.
13 You were talking about a loss of some
14 federal money that you're confident you're
15 going to get back next year, so you're asking
16 us to keep you whole in the absence of some
17 federal dollars that will come back.
18 Can you just clarify what that story
19 is?
20 MS. GERHARDT: Sure. We're talking
21 about the Victims of Crime Act funding at the
22 federal level, and those grants, that VOCA
23 grant bucket, is funded out of the Crime
24 Victims Fund, again at the federal level.
626
1 And that big, huge pot of money that
2 fuelled grants to all the states has been
3 depleted really since 2018. So in New York
4 State, our grant now is $140 million less
5 than it was in 2018.
6 Congress took steps to fix the Crime
7 Victims Fund to essentially divert more money
8 from general resources into the Crime Victims
9 Fund, and the forecast is that the Crime
10 Victims Fund will replenish itself in two to
11 three years to a level enough to return the
12 state grants to levels that we saw back in
13 our 2018-2019 timeframe.
14 But for now most states are trying to,
15 you know, take care of that shortfall for the
16 short-term period of two years. And they're
17 doing it by either using state general
18 revenues or using pandemic relief. So we
19 know states like California, Washington
20 State, Iowa, Alaska, Maryland have all taken
21 precautionary steps to ensure that the victim
22 service providers remained whole as this fund
23 at the federal level replenishes. That's
24 what we're asking New York State to do in
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1 this budget. And likely next year's as
2 well --
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay.
4 MS. GERHARDT: -- until we know that
5 that grant comes back up.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you for the
7 clarification of that.
8 I want to thank everyone for joining
9 us tonight -- yes? Sorry, Helene.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senator, we
11 have Assemblyman Burdick who has a quick
12 question.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh. Sorry,
14 Chris.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: He snuck in
16 there.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: That's right,
18 and I apologize because I was over on
19 another meeting.
20 So -- and first of all, I want to
21 thank you folks for doing the tremendous work
22 that you do.
23 And Rachel, it's so good to see you
24 and to represent you in the Assembly. We
628
1 have met, and you just -- you're doing an
2 awesome job with the services that you
3 provide.
4 And I'm wondering if you could explain
5 a little bit more -- that 200 million that's
6 obviously -- that you're looking for, it's
7 obviously statewide. And can you tell me
8 what the needs are? They would be
9 distributed, as we were discussing a minute
10 ago, throughout the state.
11 And can you give me an idea of what
12 your agency is needing out of that 280?
13 MS. HALPERIN: Well, I can tell you in
14 Westchester, for example, all of the agencies
15 in Westchester receive about $8 million a
16 year. And so that would be legal services,
17 that would be domestic violence providers, My
18 Sister's Place, Hope's Door, WestCOP, the
19 Office for Women. So I know for Westchester
20 it's a total of $8 million.
21 I think Joan can talk a little more
22 precisely about the numbers.
23 Part of our issue is we really need
24 information from OVS as to how much money
629
1 they currently contract and what their
2 deficit is going to be. And it's that
3 number, it's that difference of what programs
4 are currently funded at and what the cuts
5 they're anticipating for next year are --
6 it's that number that would close the funding
7 gap so that programs can remain whole and
8 continue providing the services they're
9 providing.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Okay. I think
11 I'm trying to get -- what I think that we
12 should do is to try to discuss this offline
13 so that I have a better idea of what the
14 needs are.
15 And I think you do -- you know,
16 obviously 280 million is a fairly big number.
17 And I think Helene would tell you that too.
18 And so we have to get an idea of how we're
19 going to approach this. But I certainly am
20 very sympathetic to wanting to see this
21 funded somehow.
22 You know, one concern that we in the
23 Legislature have is that, you know, where we
24 normally get funds from the federal
630
1 government, and we start funding it through
2 state funds -- then guess what -- we no
3 longer get funds from the federal government.
4 And so, you know, it's a little bit of
5 a balancing act to make sure that we can
6 continue to get the funding that we need from
7 the federal government.
8 But let's -- if we could, I would
9 really like to talk to you offline about it.
10 MS. HALPERIN: Thank you.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So I'm going to
13 thank the panelists, and we're going to move
14 on to Panel C.
15 And I will read off the groups and
16 names first. Prisoners' Legal Services for
17 New York, Karen Murtagh, executive director;
18 Releasing Aging People in Prison Campaign,
19 Theresa Grady, community leader; Center for
20 Community Alternatives, Sirena Sharpe,
21 community leader; and JPMorgan Chase
22 PolicyCenter, Nan Gibson, executive director.
23 Not familiar with that.
24 Anyway, welcome, everyone. You know
631
1 the rules. Three minutes, and we will go
2 down the list starting with Karen Murtagh,
3 Prisoners' Legal Services.
4 MS. MURTAGH: Thank you.
5 Good evening, Madam Chairs Krueger and
6 Weinstein and esteemed members of the
7 Legislature. It's so nice to see you all.
8 Thank you for inviting PLS to testify before
9 you today.
10 As you know, PLS was founded in 1976
11 in response to the uprising. This past fall
12 we commemorated the 50th anniversary of the
13 uprising. PLS provides legal representation
14 and assistance to incarcerated New Yorkers to
15 protect their civil and human rights and help
16 them prepare for reintegration into society
17 upon release.
18 PLS currently has six offices
19 statewide located in Albany, the Bronx,
20 Buffalo, Ithaca, Newburgh, and Plattsburgh.
21 Our work focuses on addressing conditions of
22 confinement in New York State prisons,
23 including medical and mental healthcare, jail
24 time and sentence calculations, illegal
632
1 disciplinary hearings involving solitary
2 confinement and loss of good time, visitation
3 rights of parents with their children,
4 educational and vocational training for
5 people with disabilities, and preparing
6 people who are maxing out of prison for
7 successful reintegration into their
8 communities through our Pre-Release and
9 Re-Entry Program -- we call it our PREP
10 program.
11 For fiscal year 2022-'23, Governor
12 Hochul has maintained PLS' prior executive
13 funding by including PLS in her Executive
14 Budget for $2.2 million. We are requesting
15 both houses of the Legislature to jointly add
16 an addition 2.4 million, 1.2 from the
17 Assembly and 1.2 from the Senate, resulting
18 in total funding for PLS of 4.6 million.
19 This funding will allow PLS to
20 adequately staff our six offices across the
21 state, continue providing critical legal
22 services to incarcerated people in state
23 prisons, and help address a significant
24 portion of the unmet needs. And it will
633
1 expand PLS's Pre-Release and Re-Entry Program
2 beyond the Bronx and Manhattan.
3 In my testimony I share in detail a
4 number of the court decisions and settlements
5 that we have entered into with DOCCS over
6 this past year that demonstrates how PLS
7 holds DOCCS accountable and ensures that the
8 incarcerated population is treated justly and
9 fairly. I also attached a very lengthy
10 appendix that summarizes PLS's advocacy
11 efforts over this past year on behalf of
12 hundreds of incarcerated people.
13 This advocacy and our litigation
14 highlights the need for PLS to be present --
15 because if left unchecked, our prisons could
16 quickly return to pre-Attica conditions. A
17 prime example of this is the recent release
18 of the New York State Inspector General's
19 investigation and findings where it found
20 that DOCCS's drug testing program needed to
21 be completely overhauled.
22 In her report, Inspector General Lang
23 lays out PLS's role in bringing the
24 false-positive issue to the attention of
634
1 DOCCS, a role that was critical in DOCCS's
2 final decision to suspend the buprenorphine
3 testing, reverse all of the sanctions that
4 had been given over the past year for
5 positive drug tests, and alert the Inspector
6 General's office.
7 I have said in the past, you know, PLS
8 saves the state money in thousands of
9 disciplinary hearings that we are -- that are
10 reversed over the years and seriously
11 restoring thousands of years of jail time and
12 sentencing time to people's sentences. But
13 more important than that, than the monetary
14 savings, is what PLS does for public and
15 prison safety.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
17 Karen, I have to cut you off; you have been
18 past your time for a little while.
19 MS. MURTAGH: Okay. Thank you,
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: But thank you.
21 We will look at the testimony.
22 Next is Release Aging People in Prison
23 Campaign, Theresa Grady.
24 MS. GRADY: Thank you, Chairperson.
635
1 My name is Theresa Grady, and I am a
2 community leader for the Release Aging People
3 in Prison Campaign. I'm speaking today on
4 behalf of myself and three of my fellow RAPP
5 community leaders: Nawanna Tucker, Lisette
6 Nieves, and Jeannie Colon.
7 The crisis of mass incarceration is at
8 a boiling point, with people dying in
9 New York state prisons once every three days,
10 on average. Academics have called long
11 sentences and perpetual parole denials
12 New York's new death penalty.
13 The path forward is clear. Give
14 incarcerated people who have rehabilitated
15 themselves a pathway to return home.
16 As of -- all of us -- me, Nawanna,
17 Lisette, and Jeannie have a loved one in a
18 New York State prison. My husband is 67
19 years old, 17 years into his 40-year
20 sentence, and suffering from severe chronic
21 illness. These men have grown into mature
22 adults who bear no resemblance to the people
23 who entered prison so long ago.
24 But under existing laws, the prison
636
1 system doesn't care about that. Even when
2 they do become eligible for parole, research
3 shows the Parole Board will likely ignore
4 their rehabilitation and deny their release
5 based solely on one thing that can never
6 change: their original conviction.
7 Worse, data shows they are even more
8 likely to get denied because they are all
9 Black or brown. Every day we live in fear
10 that our loved once will become, to the
11 state, another death statistic. The average
12 age of death in state prisons is only 58.
13 Governor Hochul included valuable
14 policies and programs to serve currently
15 formerly incarcerated people in her Executive
16 Budget, but there is a glaring omission. The
17 proposal falls into two categories of prison
18 programs and reentry supports. What's
19 missing is a bridge between them --
20 meaningful opportunities for those who have
21 transformed to actually get released.
22 If the prison system remains addicted
23 to endless punishment, much of the potential
24 of Governor Hochul's reforms will perish
637
1 behind bars.
2 Parole reform will give
3 community-driven and transformed people a
4 chance at freedom on a case-by-case basis,
5 and an opportunity to serve as mentors,
6 nonprofit leaders, and drug counselors for
7 young people in their home communities.
8 One report found a violence
9 interrupter program led by formerly
10 incarcerated people led to 20 percent less
11 gun violence.
12 A Columbia University report found
13 passage of elder parole, and fair and timely
14 parole, would save $522 million annually --
15 money that could be invested in mentor
16 programs, services for crime survivors,
17 quality mental health care, education, and
18 more. Together these bills would expand
19 eligibility for case-by-case parole
20 consideration and make the process more fair.
21 And they may save our loved ones' lives.
22 The bills are also backed by some of
23 the largest victim and survivor advocacy
24 groups in the state, including the Crime
638
1 Victims Treatment Center and the New York
2 State Coalition Against Sexual Assault, who
3 prioritize rehabilitation over endless
4 punishment.
5 It is time for lawmakers to act to
6 give our loved ones and countless others who
7 have transformed their lives a pathway to
8 return home.
9 Thank you.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
11 much. Perfect timing also. Thank you.
12 (Laughter.)
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Our next
14 testifier is Sirena Sharpe, Center for
15 Community Alternatives.
16 Good evening.
17 MS. SHARPE: Hi. Good evening.
18 My name is Sirena Sharpe, a leader
19 with the Center for Community Alternatives
20 and a resident of Syracuse. I'm testifying
21 in support of including the Clean Slate Act
22 in the Senate and Assembly one-house budgets.
23 I am one of more than 2 million
24 New Yorkers who have experienced perpetual
639
1 punishment because of a conviction record,
2 even though I finished serving my time over a
3 decade ago.
4 When I was 16, I became homeless and
5 struggled with drug use. A year later I was
6 convicted of a drug charge and spent a year
7 and a half incarcerated. I was released at
8 the age of 19 and was eager rebuild my life.
9 I applied for dozens of jobs but was
10 turned down repeatedly. More than 70
11 employers rejected me because of my record.
12 Finally I got a job as a cashier. I thought
13 I could finally move forward with my life, so
14 I put all my energy into applying for
15 college. But again, my conviction history
16 came up and the college didn't want to admit
17 me.
18 New York should not be systematically
19 blocking college access to the people who
20 need it most. A Brennan Center report
21 estimates that people with conviction
22 histories collectively lose hundreds of
23 billions of dollars in earnings every year.
24 This is particularly urgent in low-income
640
1 communities and communities of color, which
2 have borne the brunt of mass incarceration
3 and which are disproportionately affected by
4 old conviction records.
5 And what about women across our state
6 who are trying to overcome these barriers to
7 build stable lives for our families and
8 ourselves? As a survivor of domestic
9 violence with a conviction history, I
10 struggled to leave an abusive relationship
11 because landlords hesitated to rent to me due
12 to my record.
13 The mechanics of the bill are simple.
14 Once someone like me has completed their
15 sentence, is off of probation and parole, and
16 after a three- or seven-year waiting period,
17 our records would be automatically sealed.
18 Those who have new convictions or pending
19 charges would not be eligible.
20 For me and so many others, a clean
21 slate is a real chance at redemption. Those
22 of us who have served our time want the same
23 thing everyone else does: A stable job, a
24 roof over our heads, and the ability to
641
1 provide for our loved ones.
2 The Governor's inclusion of
3 Clean Slate in the 2023 budget is a testament
4 to the advocacy of directly impacted
5 individuals and the broad coalition of
6 supporters who have fought tirelessly for
7 this vital relief. We appreciate Governor
8 Hochul's support for the key principles that
9 underpin Clean Slate, but the proposed
10 language in her Executive Budget includes
11 changes that significantly weaken the
12 existing bill, including dramatically
13 delaying when an individual becomes eligible
14 for sealing and thereby limiting the
15 legislation's effectiveness.
16 We ask you to include in your
17 one-house budgets the full Clean Slate bill
18 as is. Clean Slate is a jobs bill, a housing
19 bill, and an anti-poverty bill.
20 Automatically sealing past conviction records
21 is also a matter of simple fairness. We urge
22 you to include the Clean Slate Act in the
23 budget without weakening amendments and bring
24 real relief to all New Yorkers.
642
1 Thank you.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
3 much.
4 And our last of the panel, Nan Gibson.
5 MS. GIBSON: Thank you,
6 Senator Krueger, Assemblymember Weinstein,
7 and committee members.
8 My name is Nan Gibson, and I'm
9 executive director of the JPMorgan Chase
10 PolicyCenter.
11 JPMorgan Chase is probably one of the
12 largest employers and contributors to the
13 economy of the State of New York. We
14 appreciate the opportunity to provide
15 testimony in support of the Clean Slate Act,
16 which would implement automatic record
17 expungement in New York State.
18 One in three Americans has an arrest
19 or conviction record that can significantly
20 impact their ability to get a job, housing,
21 or an education. The petition-based
22 expungement system is costly, complicated,
23 and time-consuming.
24 In New York State, it's estimated that
643
1 more than 600,000 people are today eligible
2 to have their records cleared, but very few
3 pursue the complex process. This means that
4 even after fulfilling their justice system
5 obligations, people with criminal records
6 often continue to be blocked from fully
7 participating in the economy.
8 The drag on the earnings potential of
9 tens of millions of Americans are costs not
10 only borne by individuals, their families,
11 and their communities, but they also have
12 larger economic consequences for business and
13 society.
14 This issue also disproportionately
15 affects people of color. Three-quarters of
16 New York State's formerly incarcerated
17 population is either Black or Latinx. Clean
18 Slate legislation can help change this.
19 As we continue to recover from the
20 pandemic, businesses are adapting to economic
21 conditions and resuming their search for
22 skilled workers. By reducing barriers to
23 employment for those with criminal records,
24 we will be able get more people back to work
644
1 more quickly.
2 JPMorgan Chase is committed to giving
3 people across the country a second chance.
4 In 2020, JPMorgan Chase hired more than
5 2100 people with criminal backgrounds --
6 about 10 percent of our new hires in the
7 U.S. -- whose history had no bearing on the
8 requirements of the job they were seeking.
9 And with a workforce of more than 30,000 in
10 New York State, the firm is always in need of
11 local talent to fill open positions.
12 Last year, JPMorgan Chase helped
13 launch the Second Chance Business Coalition,
14 co-chaired by our chairman and CEO, Jamie
15 Dimon. The coalition has grown to more than
16 40 large companies, many based in New York,
17 with the goal of expanding hiring and
18 advancement practices for people with
19 criminal records within these companies and
20 beyond.
21 If implemented, Clean Slate
22 legislation will help bolster the state's
23 economy by more fully tapping the talents of
24 thousands of people who are currently
645
1 unemployed or underemployed because of their
2 criminal records. When someone cannot get
3 their foot in the door to compete for a job,
4 it hurts businesses and communities by
5 limiting access to opportunity.
6 The benefits of automatic record
7 expungement are clear. We urge the New York
8 State Legislature and Governor Hochul to
9 enact Clean Slate legislation.
10 Thank you very much for your
11 consideration.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
13 much, all four of you.
14 And I'm going to call up
15 Senator Zellnor Myrie first.
16 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you,
17 Madam Chair.
18 And again, thank you to the panelists
19 for your incredible patience and endurance.
20 I'm not sure you anticipated having to
21 testify so late in the day, so I just want to
22 offer my thanks.
23 Thank you for sharing your stories as
24 well. Ms. Gibson, it is good to see you.
646
1 I'm hoping that you can convey to any
2 reticent business owner or businesses
3 throughout the state who say that this is not
4 a population that I can tap into -- if you
5 can just -- and you already alluded to some
6 of this in your testimony, but just sort of
7 talk to the economic benefits and to the
8 businesses across the state -- being that
9 JP Morgan is one of the largest, as you have
10 already communicated.
11 MS. GIBSON: Sure. And thanks for the
12 question, and thanks for your leadership on
13 this legislation.
14 Well, so as I said in the testimony,
15 JPMorgan Chase is committed to giving people
16 with criminal backgrounds an opportunity to
17 succeed and be part of our inclusive
18 workforce strategy.
19 We have gone and created community
20 hiring models where we work with nonprofit
21 partners in the communities, and legal
22 services partners, to help get more people
23 through what is a very complex process, the
24 hiring process, in and of itself.
647
1 And given the regulatory framework
2 that we operate in -- regulations through the
3 FDIC that have to be met -- we have worked
4 diligently to find a way to expand the number
5 of people who we can bring on board who have
6 a criminal background, as I said, but that
7 criminal background has no bearing on the job
8 that they're going to be performing.
9 So we have -- I think as evidence of
10 the success of the work that we've been
11 doing, our business leaders in markets across
12 the country are interested in having this
13 community hiring model in their markets,
14 because it's a very committed workforce. We
15 see very low turnover in the folks who we're
16 bringing on and, you know -- and we see
17 dedicated workers.
18 So I hope that answers your question.
19 SENATOR MYRIE: It does. Thank you,
20 Ms. Gibson.
21 And again, thank you to rest of the
22 panel for your time and your patience and for
23 being vulnerable.
24 Thank you.
648
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
2 And Assemblywoman Weinstein?
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Right. We have
4 several Assemblymembers. Let's start with
5 Assemblyman Lawler.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: Thank you,
7 Chairwoman.
8 I guess my question is probably
9 directed more towards Theresa, but certainly
10 I would be interested in everybody else's
11 opinions if they wish to opine.
12 It is really more of a -- just a --
13 one question, straightforward. You know, I
14 know there is a push for elder parole. I'm
15 just curious, is there any offense or crime
16 that you believe would not warrant release
17 for somebody who's over the age of 55?
18 (Phone interruption.)
19 MS. GRADY: Excuse me. I've got to
20 get this -- one second.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: No problem.
22 MS. GRADY: I'm sorry, Senator (sic).
23 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: That's okay.
24 MS. GRADY: No. No. My belief is
649
1 that everybody is due a chance at redemption.
2 I mean, you know, it could be a police
3 officer, it could be a doctor or nurse.
4 These people 55 and older, the
5 recividism rate for them is like 1 percent,
6 if that.
7 So I just believe that everybody is
8 due that respect. You know, most of them are
9 aged out. Ailed out. The recidivism for
10 them is so low that no, I don't believe that,
11 you know, there should be a limit to it.
12 And, you know, elder people today in
13 prison age by two years on a daily basis.
14 For instance, I'll say to you my husband, who
15 is 67, who's ailing -- very much so -- when I
16 see my husband today, he's shaking and
17 trembling from what's ailing him. So he
18 looks more to me like 72 years old instead of
19 67.
20 So what I'm trying to say is that no,
21 I don't believe there's a limit. Can you
22 understand that for me?
23 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: I do. And I
24 appreciate your sincerity in that, I do.
650
1 MS. GRADY: Okay.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: Okay.
3 Karen or Sirena, if either of you
4 wanted to respond to that, you're welcome to.
5 If not, that's fine.
6 Okay. Thank you.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
8 MS. SHARPE: Oh, I'm sorry. I was
9 going to answer. I was trying to find the --
10 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: So sorry. Go
11 ahead.
12 MS. SHARPE: For the Clean Slate bill,
13 I know one of the things that makes -- you
14 don't qualify if you have a sex crime. So
15 that's all I wanted to add, if that answers
16 your question.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: Okay. No, I
18 appreciate that.
19 Okay. Thank you very much.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to the
21 Senate, then.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. And I
23 believe we have Senator Hoylman.
24 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Good evening.
651
1 And let me echo my colleagues in our
2 gratitude for you staying so late and your
3 heartfelt and insightful testimony.
4 I wanted to ask Karen from Prisoners'
5 Legal Services of New York just to get down
6 to brass tacks in terms of your funding and
7 the gap that you are likely to experience in
8 the coming year. What does it looks like?
9 And what do we need to do to make
10 certain that your services are as widespread
11 as possible throughout the state?
12 MS. MURTAGH: Well, you know, we
13 really are very appreciative of
14 Governor Hochul's including us in her first
15 Executive Budget, but the problem is it was
16 for 2.2 million -- which is the same amount
17 that we have received from the Executive for
18 the past six years.
19 And in the past the Legislature has
20 always come through for us and has added to
21 that amount. But we're always behind the
22 eight ball.
23 We have never been funded at the level
24 that we need to be funded to provide the
652
1 services that are required. So we triage.
2 You know, we receive an average of 10,000
3 letters a year, and we can't take all of
4 those cases. So we take the worst cases.
5 So our proposal this year is to ask
6 for the Senate and the Assembly to both pitch
7 in an equal amount of 1.2 million, which
8 would get PLS to a final budget of 4.6.
9 Currently this year our budget is 3.55. The
10 4.6 would allow us to finally adequately
11 staff our existing offices.
12 And we just recently opened a very
13 tiny office in the Bronx. We have one person
14 working there, a social worker, who is
15 setting up our entire Pre-Release and
16 Re-Entry Project where we are working with
17 people that are maxing out of prison.
18 So earlier we heard from
19 Commissioner Annucci and a number of people
20 about the different safety nets when people
21 get out and parole is there. That isn't --
22 that doesn't exist for people that max out of
23 prison. They're given $40 and a bus ticket
24 and a pat on the back, "Hope you make it."
653
1 So our PREP program meets people in
2 prison for the year before they're released,
3 and then when they come home we work with
4 them for three years upon release to help
5 them reintegrate into the community. But
6 right now we can only accept, you know, 20 or
7 30 clients.
8 We have a small foundation funding to
9 do this, and if we could get the funding
10 we're requesting, we could expand the whole
11 PREP program to all five boroughs of New York
12 City, which have the highest percentage of
13 people maxing out of prison.
14 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you. That was
15 very clear, and I really appreciate it.
16 And a special hello to Ms. Grady from
17 RAPP. I look forward to working with you on
18 the elder parole legislation in the coming
19 weeks and months.
20 Thank you, Madam Chair.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 And I think we're handing it back to
23 the Assembly. I think we're done with
24 Senators.
654
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay. We have
2 a number of Assemblymembers.
3 We will start with Assemblyman Weprin.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN: Thank you,
5 Madam Chair.
6 And thank you, panelists, for being --
7 coming this late in the day. And I know
8 you've experienced it in the past, even in
9 person. So again, thank you for coming.
10 My first year as chair of Corrections
11 was 2017. And Karen Murtagh, you may
12 remember that you were one of the first
13 advocates to meet with me and explain how
14 important the work that you have done -- that
15 you do for those that really have no other
16 alternative. And I found out firsthand, and
17 I've referred you a number of cases during my
18 tenure. And every dollar that you get is not
19 enough. I mean, you do so much, such
20 God-sent work for people that really have no
21 other alternative, and I have seen it
22 firsthand.
23 And anything I can do in my power to
24 make you whole -- and I know it's always a
655
1 catch-up -- but a $4.6 million request, half
2 from the Assembly, half from the Senate, plus
3 the 2.2 from the Governor, seems very
4 reasonable, and I know you will put that to
5 good work.
6 And again, I want to thank RAPP for
7 all of their advocacy, and I'm hoping that
8 this year is going to be the year that we can
9 get fair and timely parole done as well as
10 elder parole. And I'm hoping to put elder
11 parole on an upcoming agenda very soon.
12 Thank you for coming.
13 MS. MURTAGH: Thank you, Assemblyman.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
15 Burdick.
16 I'm sorry. I mean, Assemblyman --
17 Senator Bailey, have you --
18 SENATOR BAILEY: Yes. I just --
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: He went.
20 SENATOR BAILEY: No, I didn't go yet,
21 Liz.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, I'm sorry,
23 Senator Bailey. I didn't realize -- for this
24 panel. Excuse me.
656
1 SENATOR BAILEY: No, no problem.
2 Sorry. Just really, really briefly.
3 Ms. Grady and Ms. Sharpe, thank you
4 for your stories. Ms. Sharpe, especially
5 speaking about the issues that many
6 individuals who have the best of intentions
7 in terms of making sure they procure
8 employment and do everything that they,
9 quote, unquote, are supposed do, and then
10 they are effectively disregarded by
11 society -- and I thank you for, you know,
12 continuing to, you know, to fight and show
13 that.
14 You know, everybody's life is
15 valuable. And that the economic sustenance
16 will be what eventually brings us to
17 prosperity. So that brings me to Ms. Gibson.
18 I didn't forget you, Karen, I'll get to you
19 in a second.
20 But Ms. Gibson, I would just ask you
21 that -- I guess from your experience, from
22 your personal experience implementing
23 something like Clean Slate, how quickly would
24 we as a state be able to reap the benefits of
657
1 this expanded economic pool?
2 MS. GIBSON: Well, I would say that
3 depends on how quickly you can implement it,
4 right?
5 But I think what we have seen in other
6 states is that by reducing the friction in
7 the labor market, it allows people to take
8 advantage of employment opportunities, you
9 know, housing opportunities, and education
10 opportunities. So it is, you know -- we have
11 already seen in the work that we have done,
12 you know, separately outside of the Clean
13 Slate legislation, just in our work with the
14 FDIC to encourage them to change some of the
15 regulations around the types of, you know,
16 crimes that someone might have in their past
17 or record that they might have in their past,
18 whether or not we would need to get a waiver
19 to hire them -- and just with changes to FDIC
20 regulations which all banks are able to take
21 advantage of.
22 You know, anecdotally, we have seen
23 that even those types of small changes have
24 made a meaningful difference in our ability
658
1 to hire. So, you know, when we have seen it
2 in a highly regulated environment, you could
3 imagine that the benefits, you know, will
4 also cascade in less-regulated settings.
5 SENATOR BAILEY: Again, I just imagine
6 that, you know, especially for a successful
7 organization like Chase to be able to see
8 that and to be able to see the benefits that
9 will be able to come from an economic
10 perspective, I would imagine that, as Senator
11 Myrie said, this would cascade, I think you
12 mentioned, all the way up and down the state.
13 So I wanted to thank you,
14 Senator Myrie and Assemblymember Cruz for
15 their work on this piece of legislation.
16 And Karen, I just wanted to thank you
17 for everything that you do with PLS in terms
18 of being incredibly responsive and having
19 conversations with the chair -- with Chair
20 Hoylman in terms of, you know, that possible
21 expansion. That would be excellent.
22 You have been nothing but excellent in
23 terms of some of the serious -- and to the
24 minute things that some -- or
659
1 apparently seemingly minute things that some
2 folks face in correction facilities. And PLS
3 has always been there every step of the way.
4 So I just wanted to show my
5 appreciation for you what do and again, as
6 many colleagues have said, thank you all for
7 your incredible patience and your testimony.
8 MS. MURTAGH: Thank you, Senator.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. Now back
10 to the Assembly. Thank you.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
12 Burdick.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you, and I
14 join my colleagues in thanking you all for
15 your perseverence and patience with us.
16 And Ms. Sharpe, thank you for sharing
17 with us your personal story and account.
18 And I follow very closely the work of
19 RAPP, and in fact a member of RAPP is on my
20 own internal advisory committee on the work
21 that I do on the Correction Committee.
22 And I appreciate your mentioning your
23 concerns about the iteration of Clean Slate
24 that's in the Executive Budget. And I have
660
1 not had a chance to read the Article VII yet,
2 and I'm just wondering -- Ms. Gibson, I first
3 want to commend JPMorgan for endorsing
4 Clean Slate. And last year JPMorgan endorsed
5 Clean Slate in the form that Ms. Sharpe had
6 described.
7 And I'm wondering whether you have had
8 a chance to review the Article VII iteration
9 of it, and whether you're going to be urging
10 the Legislature as well to take action on
11 Clean Slate in its original form.
12 MS. GIBSON: Well, thank you for the
13 question.
14 And our -- as we understand it, there
15 are efforts underway to -- discussions
16 underway to try to come to some type of
17 agreement about moving forward. And we would
18 just encourage the Legislature and the
19 Governor to work together to, you know, move
20 a meaningful Clean Slate piece of
21 legislation.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Fair enough.
23 Thank you. I appreciate that.
24 And again, we really do appreciate
661
1 your advocacy. And keep up the good work
2 that you all are doing.
3 MS. GIBSON: Thank you. Appreciate
4 it.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I -- let's see
6 if we -- we have two Assemblymembers,
7 Assemblywoman Kelles and then Assemblyman
8 Epstein.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Wonderful.
10 Thank you so much.
11 I want to shout out to both Theresa
12 Grady and Sirena Sharpe. Thank you both for
13 being here and the work that you do. I very
14 much enjoyed working with your organizations.
15 And I do -- I want to follow up.
16 Theresa, really quickly, one thing that you
17 said -- just to add my support. I think
18 there is lot of misrepresentation of the
19 Elder Parole bill. First of all, people are
20 eligible only after serving 15 years and
21 being beyond the age of 55.
22 And I have been hearing people talk
23 about today that it would allow people who
24 committed a crime later on in life to be
662
1 eligible. That's why the 15 years is there.
2 So that's a clarification.
3 The second clarification is that it
4 gives them the opportunity to be eligible for
5 parole. There is lot of manipulation of
6 this, that it is an instantaneous allowing
7 them out of prison if they're over 55 years
8 old. That is a tremendous manipulation of
9 the actual details of the bill.
10 So, Theresa, you have been a wonderful
11 person in educating on the details of that.
12 I highly appreciate the distinction that this
13 creates the opportunity to enter back into
14 the community, to prove the rehabilitation
15 and transformation. So thank you for your
16 work on that.
17 MS. GRADY: Thank you.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Absolutely.
19 And Karen -- there you are, Karen.
20 Thank you so much for your work.
21 There are two things that I wanted to
22 just bring up. One -- and it's good to see
23 you again, I look forward to continuing to
24 work with you -- with respect to staffing.
663
1 From conversations that I have had with PLS,
2 the recommendation from the American Bar
3 Association is for one representative to
4 every 400.
5 We have 31,000 in our state, which
6 means that even by the national
7 recommendation, we are thousands, right --
8 we're hundreds of representives short. How
9 many short of what we actually need?
10 MS. MURTAGH: I haven't done the
11 numbers lately, but that -- that whole --
12 that math problem is on our website where we
13 lay out the American Bar Association
14 recommendations.
15 And we now have approximately
16 27 employees in core PLS. We have an
17 immigration unit too, but the immigration
18 unit does something completely separate from
19 conditions of confinement.
20 So we are way over.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: So it's 27 for
22 those 31,000 -- which is way under the
23 400 recommendation rate. So that is what
24 you're referring to when you're asking for
664
1 this additional funding.
2 With my last few seconds, if you could
3 talk about what you're not able to provide.
4 And specifically you mentioned issues with
5 good time, and not -- for people not being
6 given appropriate good time or being allowed.
7 Can you talk briefly about that? Maybe I
8 missed something.
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: You know --
10 Assemblywoman, you know, the time is up. So
11 perhaps you could send that information to us
12 and we would share --
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Yes, I'm good.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: -- that with
15 all of the members who have been here.
16 So we're going to move on to
17 Assemblyman Epstein to close this panel.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you,
19 Chair. And I'll be quick.
20 I also want to appreciate Theresa for
21 all you do, it really -- time and time again,
22 you keep coming back and talking to us.
23 Sirena, thank you for your advocacy.
24 MS. GRADY: Thank you.
665
1 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: These are
2 critical conversations that we're having, and
3 it's good to hear that you may get some
4 movement on elder parole from Chair Weprin.
5 That would be -- that's great.
6 And so, Karen, I heard the budget
7 request. And I'm wondering, have you had
8 conversations with the Executive about it?
9 What are they saying about this increase in
10 funding? And obviously it's, you know,
11 having stable funding over a longer period of
12 time and how critical that is for a legal
13 services program because of hiring and
14 retention issues. I'm wondering what they've
15 said around kind of ongoing support.
16 MS. MURTAGH: Well, I did have a
17 number of discussions with people in the
18 Executive prior to the budget coming out, and
19 there was extensive support for getting PLS
20 up to the level where we should be.
21 But that didn't seem to come through
22 in the budget when it was issued. Now, I
23 don't know if that is because perhaps there's
24 other money that was provided for -- our
666
1 pass-through agency is DCJS, and perhaps
2 there's money in there that they're going to
3 RFP down the road. But none of that was
4 communicated to me yet.
5 So all I know is that we got what we
6 have gotten, you know, for the past six
7 years.
8 And I completely agree with you. I
9 don't like coming to the Legislature to try
10 to get an add for this, because PLS is much
11 more like a state agency than a typical
12 nonprofit. We have six offices across the
13 state. We are tasked with providing civil
14 legal services to all incarcerated people in
15 New York State prisons.
16 So, you know, trying to piecemeal this
17 and saying you add this and you add that, it
18 really should be a complete Executive item.
19 It was, under Hugh Carey and under Mario
20 Cuomo, in its beginnings. But then slowly,
21 when more prisons were built and more money
22 was needed, then the Assembly pitched in and
23 now the Senate has pitched in. And I -- I
24 totally appreciate the support of the
667
1 Legislature, because we wouldn't exist if we
2 didn't have your support.
3 But it really should be, in my
4 opinion, my humble opinion, an
5 Executive-funded item, because it is a state
6 responsibility to provide civil legal
7 services for people that are incarcerated.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you.
9 Thank you, Chair.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. So I think
11 we have now completed this panel.
12 Thank you very much, all of you, for
13 your work and your advocacy.
14 I'm going to shift to Panel D, for
15 those of us still keeping track.
16 (Zoom interruption.)
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay, sorry.
18 Everyone else mute, please.
19 Assigned Counsel Association of
20 New York State, Brian Zimmerman, vice
21 president, and New York State Defenders
22 Association, Susan Bryant, executive
23 director.
24 Good evening, both of you. Why don't
668
1 we start with Brian Zimmerman.
2 MR. ZIMMERMAN: Thank you for this
3 opportunity to address you. My name is Brian
4 Zimmerman. I'm the vice president of the
5 Assigned Counsel Association, a group formed
6 to advocate for assigned counsel, who provide
7 legal representation for indigent adults and
8 children in family, criminal, Supreme and
9 Appellate courts.
10 Representing our most vulnerable
11 citizens in these courts is a privilege we
12 have chosen, and one we do not take for
13 granted. I'm here because of a growing
14 crisis in all these courts. There are too
15 few attorneys to represent the numbers in
16 need, whether a domestic violence victim, a
17 parent or child separated by state action, a
18 parent fighting to see their children, or a
19 criminal defendant seeking to defend their
20 innocence while languishing in jail or
21 seeking appellate redress.
22 Statewide, there are approximately 30
23 to 50 percent less attorneys available to
24 handle this ever-increasing number of cases.
669
1 Why the exodus? First and foremost, the
2 legislatively set compensation rate has
3 remained at $75 per hour since 2004, while
4 the costs to practice have risen every year
5 for 18 years. It is simply unaffordable for
6 our attorneys to continue this work, and even
7 harder to recruit new attorneys. No job in
8 New York State has seen no raise in over
9 18 years.
10 As a voice for the underserved we
11 represent, too many cases and too few
12 attorneys equates to an inability to provide
13 high-quality representation. Court
14 proceedings are needlessly delayed, and
15 decisions for these most vulnerable people --
16 the poor, the underserved, often in our Black
17 and brown communities, do not get public
18 protection. The lasting trauma inflicted on
19 those indigent communities is immeasurable
20 and repeats itself year after year.
21 In 2003, inadequate rates then
22 resolved when a court imposed a rate of
23 $90 per hour, admonishing the Legislature to
24 act then and not repeat this crisis. Sadly,
670
1 the crisis has repeated. Chief Judge
2 DiFiore, multiple state commissions, and the
3 New York State Bar Association have urged
4 action. You heard ILS today urge action.
5 Nine major New York City bar associations
6 have taken legal action, challenging
7 New York's failure to provide
8 constitutionally required access to justice.
9 We thank Senator Bailey, Assemblyman
10 Magnarelli, and former Assemblyman Lentol for
11 sponsoring legislation to increase those
12 rates that's been introduced for the last
13 three years under Senate 3527 and Assembly
14 6013. This is an upstate and downstate
15 issue.
16 We are advocating for attorneys to be
17 compensated at the federal defender hourly
18 rate of $158 per hour, with a cost-of-living
19 provision. We are asking that the costs
20 above $75 per hour be a state, not a county
21 expenditure.
22 We applaud the Senate and Assembly for
23 introducing legislation, but this crisis will
24 not end until the money to fund the
671
1 legislation is part of the final budget. We
2 ask the Senate and Assembly to make ending
3 this crisis a legislative priority and
4 include appropriations in the budgets of each
5 house to support the above legislation.
6 Our society is judged by what it does
7 to meet its responsibility to the least
8 fortunate, and never more importantly than
9 when their liberty and equal access to
10 justice is at stake. The time to act is now.
11 Thank you for your time and support.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
13 much.
14 And our next speaker is Susan Bryant.
15 MS. BRYANT: Good evening,
16 Chair Krueger and Chair Weinstein and members
17 of the Public Protection budget committee.
18 My name is Susan Bryant. I'm the
19 executive director of the New York State
20 Defenders Association, also known as NYSDA.
21 Thank you for the opportunity to testify this
22 evening about funding for NYSDA's Public
23 Defense Backup Center and Veterans Defense
24 Program. Continued survival of both will
672
1 improve racial justice, public defense, and
2 community safety.
3 For over 40 years NYSDA has received
4 yearly grants from the state to operate the
5 Public Defense Backup Center, which helps the
6 state meet its constitutional obligation to
7 provide quality public defense. Our staff
8 provide essential legal and technical support
9 services to public defenders around the
10 state, from training programs to our case
11 management system to our publications and
12 legal hotline.
13 I'm here to ask both the Senate and
14 the Assembly to ensure that this year's
15 budget includes 2,989,000 for NYSDA's Public
16 Defense Backup Center. This includes
17 2,089,000 -- which is the same amount we
18 received last year and since 2012. We're
19 also asking for an additional $900,000 in
20 order to meet a critical need to establish
21 the statewide Defender Discovery & Forensic
22 Support Unit.
23 In the brief time I have left, I want
24 to describe what we need for that unit. And
673
1 that unit comes out of the fabulous discovery
2 laws that you passed several years ago, which
3 removed the blindfold and have allowed
4 defenders to receive the information that
5 they so desperately need to advise their
6 clients and to provide representation.
7 The state's invested $40 million each
8 year to meet the needs of prosecutors, police
9 and other law enforcement with regard to the
10 discovery law, but no funding has been
11 provided to help public defenders. Public
12 defenders and their clients cannot continue
13 be left behind.
14 The $900,000 we have requested would
15 be a modest and cost-effective way to help
16 public defenders throughout the state. As we
17 have shown for the last four decades, our
18 Public Defense Backup Center's centralized
19 services have created efficiencies. The new
20 unit would also improve statewide efficiency
21 by centralizing resources, and staff with
22 forensic science and discovery expertise can
23 provide high-quality technical and legal
24 support and training.
674
1 It would also help us enhance our
2 public defense case management system, and it
3 would provide assistance to family defenders
4 as well who are significantly underresourced,
5 as you heard from Patricia Warth from the
6 Office of Indigent Legal Services a little
7 while ago.
8 Our budget testimony includes much
9 more details on the need for the unit and the
10 funding for it.
11 I also want to mention our Veterans
12 Defense Program, which we're asking for last
13 year's funding level of $720,000, and we'll
14 be submitting testimony with regard to VDP to
15 the Human Services budget committee members
16 as well.
17 Thank you for your support, and I
18 appreciate your time and appreciate the
19 support that we've received from the
20 Legislature over the years.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you both
22 for your time and your testimony.
23 And I see Jamaal Bailey, chair of
24 Codes, with his hand up.
675
1 SENATOR BAILEY: Very brief.
2 Susan, thank you so much for what you
3 do with the defenders and your constant
4 communication and correspondence with us and
5 our amazing staff. And so this is the
6 portion where we make sure we shout out to
7 our amazing staff here that does so much
8 incredible work in helping us get those
9 legislative accomplishments done. So I just
10 wanted to make sure I thank you for that.
11 Brian, thank you for the shout out,
12 but also the 18-B. These are definitely
13 things that are critically important that
14 we've heard about.
15 I think both of you have raised
16 salient arguments as to why, you know, each
17 of what you've spoken about should be
18 accomplished. I just, again, want to thank
19 you for your patience.
20 And we're at that point of the program
21 where I yield my time. Thank you,
22 Madam Chair.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you, Sir
24 Chair.
676
1 Chairwoman Weinstein, do you have any
2 Assemblymembers?
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We do not have
4 any members waiting to ask a question. So
5 it's all yours.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Well, then thank
7 you very much for having made your points so
8 clearly, both of you. We will now release
9 you for the evening.
10 And I will be calling up the next
11 panel, which is Panel E: Police Benevolent
12 Association of New York, Troy Caupain, PBA
13 secretary; New York State Police
14 Investigators Association, Timothy Dymond,
15 president; New York State Correctional
16 Officers & Police Benevolent Association,
17 Michael Powers, president.
18 Good evening, gentlemen. I guess
19 we'll take you in the order I just read your
20 names, so the State PBA first.
21 DIRECTOR CAUPAIN: Good evening,
22 Madam Chair and respected panel. I
23 appreciate the opportunity to speak to you
24 again this evening.
677
1 Two years ago I addressed the panel
2 for the Park Police members after an
3 executive memorandum was submitted, sent out
4 by the former governor and state operations
5 director, which basically gave operational
6 control to the State Police of the
7 Park Police as well as basically stopped all
8 hiring, transfers and promotions for the
9 Park Police within the agency.
10 And it's been two years of
11 frustration, anxiety and just unanswered
12 questions that we've received from the agency
13 regarding our futures. Obviously my written
14 testimony goes into more detail with that.
15 And I would just like to state that
16 this past Friday, ironically, the agency put
17 out a memorandum stating that they are now
18 going to put on an academy class for the fall
19 of 2022. Which is again ironic, because we
20 sat down with the Commissioner on
21 December 7th, which was supposedly a meeting
22 about his conversations with the Executive
23 Chamber, and there was no information passed
24 on at all regarding hiring or anything to do
678
1 with the Park Police. Basically it was: We
2 have nothing for you.
3 So again, it's very ironic that that
4 came out. We appreciate that it came out.
5 Obviously, according to the Commissioner, the
6 same day that our memorandum was sent
7 regarding the Park Police, he sent a
8 memorandum to the executive staff which
9 talked about the game-changing budget that
10 Governor Kathy Hochul has now submitted on
11 behalf of OPRHP, where in fact the agency is
12 going to receive -- will have an operating
13 budget of $199.3 million.
14 And in bold print he states on his
15 Executive Budget summary that the agency will
16 be in full hiring mode for 2022 and they're
17 bringing their ETFs to the number 2,087,
18 which is the highest level they've had since
19 2009.
20 So our questions today are --
21 obviously this is a budget hearing. So the
22 first thing we would ask the panel and the
23 legislative body is to please assist us in
24 rescinding that executive memorandum that put
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1 the Park Police basically in extinction,
2 through the agency.
3 And secondly, we would ask for more
4 transparency as it relates to the budget and
5 the money that was appropriated to the Office
6 of Parks and Recreation. If they're
7 receiving almost $200 million, how much money
8 is being allocated for the Park Police? Is
9 it just one academy class? Is it going to be
10 multiple academy classes?
11 And with that, we're going to need
12 help from the Legislature to ask the Governor
13 to pass the 20-year retirement bill that she
14 vetoed several weeks ago, and make that part
15 of the budget. And we also need additional
16 funding where we can have a geographic
17 package submitted on behalf of the
18 Legislature to, again, address the retention
19 problem. We've lost over 140 members since
20 2014, 79 in the last year and a half since
21 this executive order came out, two years
22 since this executive order came out.
23 So we would need those two things from
24 the Legislature, along with that memorandum
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1 being rescinded, in order for us to get some
2 kind of real direction as it relates to the
3 Park Police within OPRHP.
4 So I thank you for your time. Again,
5 my testimony was submitted. And I look
6 forward to any questions you have regarding
7 our future and what we need from the
8 Legislature moving forward. Thank you so
9 much.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
11 And our next testifier -- sorry, it's
12 not Michael Powers, it was the one, I'm
13 sorry, just above. Excuse me. Sorry.
14 Timothy Dymond, president of the New York
15 State Police Investigators Association.
16 PRESIDENT DYMOND: Thank you.
17 Good evening, Senate and Assembly
18 members. My name is Tim Dymond, and I am a
19 Senior Investigator for the New York State
20 Police. I am currently the elected president
21 of the New York State Police Investigators
22 Association.
23 I represent roughly 1100 Investigators
24 and Senior Investigators across the State of
681
1 New York, and several thousand retirees. I
2 am incredibly proud to represent this elite
3 group of men and women in the State Police
4 that handle the most serious of cases. Day
5 in and day out, these folks go out and do
6 their job at a high level, and without them,
7 this state would certainly suffer.
8 Our members buy the illegal handguns
9 undercover. Our members investigate and
10 infiltrate street gangs that are committing
11 many of the shootings that we're seeing
12 today. Our members go out and work on the
13 murders that these gangs commit. Those are
14 our people, and I'm very proud.
15 We continue to deal with historic
16 policy change and job expectations that seem
17 to increase by the day. But there are a few
18 topics I would like to touch on and have the
19 Legislature consider for the pending budget.
20 Our highest priority, as it was last
21 year, is replacement of retiring members in
22 our ranks. We continue to lose members at an
23 alarming pace. Last year I spoke of the
24 shortage we were dealing with with Senior
682
1 Investigators. I'm pleased to report today
2 that the Division has filled most of those
3 open senior positions, and for that we are
4 thankful. Now we need to backfill the
5 Investigator positions.
6 Nearly every special detail and
7 station is running on a reduced manpower
8 level, while the workload continues to
9 increase with the rise in violent crime. The
10 Legislature can debate the causes for the
11 increase in crime, but there's no debating
12 the fact that these crimes need to be
13 investigated to prevent future crimes from
14 being committed.
15 As Superintendent Bruen explained
16 earlier, it takes a while for us to get a
17 good Trooper candidate out and into the
18 field. It takes many, many more years to get
19 an Investigator out into the field. So we
20 need to get that process going this year. We
21 ask that the Legislature provide a
22 substantial new recruit class to help us
23 replenish the ranks and keep New Yorkers
24 safe.
683
1 We were pleased to hear this year the
2 Governor is supporting increased funding to
3 be used in the battle against gun violence
4 that is occurring across the state. I think
5 it's very important to note that we are
6 seeing violent crime increases not only in
7 New York City -- New York City gets the
8 headlines -- we are seeing the same problems
9 in Buffalo, Syracuse, Albany, Newburgh,
10 Poughkeepsie.
11 The expansion of our Community
12 Stabilization Units and Anti-Gun Task Force
13 and different technologies will help reduce
14 gun crime, but it's not enough. We must get
15 the trigger-pullers off the street, period.
16 We ask the Legislature to support
17 expanding these units and every other BCI
18 unit that investigates gun crime.
19 Lastly, last year during the budget
20 hearings we asked the Legislature to consider
21 supporting a safer, more appropriate firearm
22 for use by the 300 BCI members working
23 undercover in the most dangerous conditions
24 across New York. With your support, the
684
1 Division has explored this concept, and
2 approval of the updated concept is imminent.
3 For this we are thankful.
4 However, final approval for the
5 undercover weapons is the first phase. We
6 respectfully request that the Legislature
7 conclude this process by providing to the
8 Division the funding necessary to purchase
9 the firearms and related equipment to
10 complete the project. The estimated cost is
11 approximately $150,000, and it will be a
12 small investment in the safety of our
13 undercover police officers.
14 Lastly, thank you for allowing me the
15 opportunity to bring these important issues
16 to your attention on behalf of my membership,
17 and I appreciate it and I appreciate what you
18 guys do.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
20 much.
21 And next, Michael Powers.
22 Oops. I think your voice is not
23 coming through. Try to unmute yourself.
24 Okay, try again. I think he froze this time.
685
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We can't hear
2 you. But we can see you, that nice smile.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes, we do see
4 the nice smile.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Not frozen.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Try one more
7 time.
8 You know, I'm sorry, Mr. Powers, we
9 cannot hear you speaking.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Should we go to
11 some members' questions and --
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: What a good idea.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: And then you
14 can come back.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So let's go to
16 questions. And maybe what you can do,
17 Mr. Powers, is close yourself out of Zoom and
18 reopen it. Sometimes just that works.
19 All right. And we'll start with, I
20 guess, Assemblymembers. Helene Weinstein,
21 who would you like?
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I do see that
23 Senator Savino has her hand raised.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, okay. Hello,
686
1 Senator Savino. I thought you were off for
2 the evening. What would you like to ask?
3 SENATOR SAVINO: I am here, Senator
4 Krueger, ever-present, no matter where I am.
5 (Laughter.)
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Fair enough.
7 SENATOR SAVINO: Actually, I wanted to
8 ask -- I'll start with Troy from the
9 Parks Police, because he referenced a piece
10 of legislation that the Governor recently
11 vetoed, it was a 20-year pension bill that
12 the Legislature passed last year, I think it
13 was unanimously in both houses. And in her
14 veto message she made some reference to the
15 fact that it should be negotiated before it
16 comes to her desk. But in fact, it should be
17 negotiated at the bargaining table.
18 And I was just wondering if she had
19 raised that issue, because quite honestly,
20 you can't negotiate pensions, they are a
21 prohibitive subject of collective bargaining.
22 But since she referenced it in her
23 veto message, I was wondering if in fact that
24 you had brought it up in discussions with the
687
1 Park Police.
2 DIRECTOR CAUPAIN: Thank you, Senator,
3 for that question. I hope you can still hear
4 me; I don't see myself.
5 SENATOR SAVINO: I can hear you.
6 DIRECTOR CAUPAIN: Yes, we did bring
7 that to the attention of the executive
8 chamber. It was -- obviously we cannot do
9 that in contract negotiations. It's against
10 the law. It's actually against several laws.
11 And we did bring that to their attention.
12 Obviously we're hoping to have
13 conversation with the second floor and the
14 executive chamber to somehow clarify that,
15 and hope that if there was -- if the Governor
16 felt that we could do it in collective
17 bargaining, even though we couldn't, then it
18 seems to us that there was some type of
19 appetite, if you will, or feeling that if we
20 did get it done, that she would be okay in
21 passing it or putting it through in the
22 budget or through the Legislature.
23 So we're hoping that we can have some
24 real conversation regarding that and hope
688
1 that we can get the 20-year bill included in
2 this year's budget, because it is much
3 needed, not only for the Park Police but for
4 the other units within our PBA, because it
5 will help us with our retention. And it
6 helps us become, you know, competitive in
7 today's market when we're being poached from
8 every other municipality, and even the
9 State Police, all across the State of
10 New York.
11 SENATOR SAVINO: Thank you.
12 I'm happy to hear that hiring is going
13 on with the Police Investigators as well.
14 And I was hoping that Mike Powers would be
15 able to testify. If we can get him through,
16 the question I would ask him is we've heard
17 Commissioner Annucci speak about the training
18 has been put in place to help implement the
19 HALT legislation that goes into effect, and I
20 just wanted to hear from him if in fact that
21 training is taking place and whether or not
22 the union was consulted and other members
23 involved in the training.
24 As always, I'm always concerned when
689
1 the workers, whether it's the Park Police,
2 whether it's the New York State Police
3 Investigators or NYSCOPBA, is not included as
4 part of the implementation of policies that
5 we adopt and the agencies are supposed to
6 implement.
7 So hopefully Mike will be able to get
8 on board and tell us a bit of what's
9 happening at DOCCS and maybe share what's
10 happening with respect to the implementation
11 of HALT, and are his members being properly
12 prepared and trained.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Great. I believe
14 that Michael Powers has rejoined us. And
15 with any luck, we are now going to be able to
16 hear him.
17 SENATOR SAVINO: Great. Thank you.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So your
19 presentation now.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Hi, Michael. Are
21 you ready to testify?
22 PRESIDENT POWERS: Yes. Yes, I am.
23 Can you hear me?
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We can hear you.
690
1 Excellent.
2 PRESIDENT POWERS: Wonderful. Thank
3 you for your patience.
4 Again, good evening, esteemed members
5 of the Legislature. I'm Michael Powers,
6 president of NYSCOPBA. On behalf of more
7 than 30,000 active and retired members, thank
8 you for the opportunity to appear in front of
9 you.
10 For years the State of New York has
11 touted itself as the progressive capital of
12 the world. The process of decarcerating
13 New York's prisons is viewed as a victory for
14 social justice. Sadly, though, this effort
15 has also drastically changed the state's
16 rehabilitation model, which has resulted in
17 significant human costs.
18 Over the last decade, the working
19 environment inside correctional facilities
20 has become increasingly more violent.
21 Despite a prison population being at its
22 lowest point in nearly 40 years, violent
23 attacks on staff by incarcerated --
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, we've lost
691
1 your voice again. Let's see. Try it one
2 more time.
3 PRESIDENT POWERS: Can you hear me
4 now?
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes, now I can.
6 PRESIDENT POWERS: Thank you.
7 So as I mentioned, we're at 1173
8 assaults recorded this past year. Every one
9 of these assaults on staff has its own story.
10 The one that sent a shiver down my spine was
11 the story of Correction Officer Adrea
12 Adamczyk out at Mid-State. Officer Adamczyk
13 required 70 stitches to her forehead after
14 she was viciously assaulted by a man she was
15 charged to oversee, for simply directing him
16 to take a shower.
17 This was an unprovoked, violent
18 assault upon an employee of the state. But
19 don't be fooled -- this terrible incident was
20 inevitable. Today in New York State prison
21 facilities, more than three correction
22 officers like Adrea are injured at the hands
23 of inmates. Three more will be hurt
24 tomorrow, and three more will be hurt the
692
1 next day.
2 As a result of the overhaul of the
3 disciplinary system within correctional
4 facilities, there are very few deterrents in
5 place to dissuade inmates from attacking
6 staff. HALT is fully implemented, the
7 ability to remove and separate violent
8 individuals will be severely hampered. The
9 incarcerated population is well aware of
10 this. After an attack, the chants of 15
11 days, 15 days" echo the hallways and cell
12 blocks.
13 Our prisons will soon be
14 consequence-free environments, allowing
15 dangerous individuals to thrive in chaos and
16 hurt anyone who attempts to stand in their
17 way.
18 We have promoted a bill pending in the
19 Legislature that will bring stakeholders to
20 the table and partake in a violence study.
21 Until that legislation is passed and that
22 violence study is complete, we demand that
23 any changes in policies that alter the
24 disciplinary system be put on hold, including
693
1 the implementation of HALT.
2 There are ways to protect everyone.
3 The state just needs to implement them with
4 the same urgency that they enacted polices to
5 improve the well-being of the incarcerated
6 community. The pandemic has only made
7 staffing and morale issues worse. Correction
8 officers are physically and mentally
9 exhausted, mandated to work --
10 (Zoom audio dropped.)
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You're faded out
12 again, sorry.
13 Try doing that trick you seem to know
14 to come back.
15 (Pause.)
16 PRESIDENT POWERS: How's that?
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You're back.
18 PRESIDENT POWERS: We're back.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes, you are.
20 PRESIDENT POWERS: Now the hardworking
21 men and women of NYSCOPBA should be properly
22 recognized and equally compensated as their
23 healthcare counterparts, whom they escort
24 around the blocks every day. Simply put, all
694
1 correction officers must be included in a
2 financial incentive program to make up for
3 the --
4 (Zoom audio dropped.)
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sorry, Michael,
6 we've lost you again.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Can he not use
8 that mic? Is there a way to take the mic
9 off? Because there might be a short in the
10 mic.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: It could be a
12 short in the mic, but I don't know how he
13 goes --
14 PRESIDENT POWERS: Can you hear me
15 now?
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes.
17 PRESIDENT POWERS: Yes, we're back.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sometimes if you
19 take your visual off, it improves the mic.
20 So you could try that also.
21 PRESIDENT POWERS: We're just checking
22 one thing here real quick. I apologize.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sure.
24 PRESIDENT POWERS: As I mentioned, we
695
1 demand that correction officers be included
2 in the worker retention bonuses proposed in
3 the Executive Budget.
4 For years we've talked about
5 contraband in our facilities, and it's as
6 prevalent as ever. Now is the time to fund
7 our Secure Vendor Package Program, as well as
8 utilize full-body scanners. There is no
9 sugar-coating the current situation in our
10 facilities. Conditions are abysmal, and
11 these violence issues must be addressed
12 immediately.
13 Thank you for the opportunity. I
14 welcome any questions you may have.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
16 much.
17 And now, looking for hands up, and I
18 believe it's the Assembly's turn.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We will go to
20 Assemblyman Palmesano first.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Yes, thank
22 you.
23 First I just want to say briefly thank
24 you to all of you for -- you and your
696
1 members, for what you do for us in our
2 communities and your jobs each and every day
3 to keep us safe. So thank you.
4 My question is for Mr. Powers.
5 Mr. Powers, I know you talked about the
6 violence and assaults that are going on in
7 our correctional facilities. I've mentioned
8 that too. I know over the past six years
9 it's an increase of 55 percent,
10 inmate-on-staff assaults. You know, you
11 mentioned about HALT and the restrictions on
12 the special housing units. I think that's an
13 issue that needs to be addressed. You know,
14 obviously I don't think we're ready for it.
15 On that issue, you mentioned the
16 violence study bill that NYSCOPBA and others
17 are pushing. Earlier today Commissioner
18 Annucci talked about a violence task force
19 that DOCCS is forming to investigate violence
20 in the prisons. I know, obviously, those two
21 aren't the same. So is what DOCCS is
22 promoting, the violence study bill, compared
23 to -- like what's the differences? And this
24 DOCCS task force, is it sufficient enough,
697
1 and how is the study bill better?
2 PRESIDENT POWERS: Well, the violence
3 task force was presented to us a couple of
4 weeks ago, a little over a month ago, and we
5 haven't even scheduled -- we haven't even had
6 our first meeting here.
7 As you're well aware, Assemblyman,
8 we've had many issues -- you know, this is a
9 subject matter that quite frankly for this
10 last seven years as -- my tenure as president
11 of NYSCOPBA, we've been dealing with this
12 since Jump Street. A task force is between
13 the administration, some superintendents and
14 some --
15 (Zoom audio dropped.)
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We lost you,
17 Michael.
18 PRESIDENT POWERS: Can you hear me?
19 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Yes.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Now, yes.
21 PRESIDENT POWERS: The violence study
22 includes stakeholders such as members of the
23 Legislature, policyholders, administrators,
24 union officials and many others that we feel
698
1 is vital in addressing this violence study.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Mr. Powers, I
3 know you mentioned the compensation package.
4 I know, you know, from talking to correction
5 officers in my district, that the morale is
6 really down with the closures and everything
7 else, the working conditions, the mandated
8 overtimes.
9 And then when this came up earlier
10 about the two and-a-half-times overtime pay
11 being paid to nurses working in our
12 correctional facilities, whereas the
13 corrections officers working side by side
14 with them are not getting that same
15 compensation -- when your members see that,
16 what does that do for the morale of those who
17 are working a dangerous job?
18 PRESIDENT POWERS: Well, it's been
19 very difficult for our staff, especially from
20 a morale standpoint. In the height of the
21 initial pandemic in 2020, it became a very
22 difficult time. Many members got caught up
23 in some of the quarantine issues, as the
24 acting commissioner talked about earlier, you
699
1 know, and some of them unfortunately having
2 to --
3 (Zoom audio dropped.)
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We lost you
5 again.
6 PRESIDENT POWERS: The morale in our
7 facilities has been very, very low since --
8 well, the last year and a half. And it's
9 been very difficult to -- it's been very
10 difficult to bring that morale around in any
11 fashion with the department as of late. And
12 we feel it's necessary, as you mentioned, to
13 be categorized as the essential employees
14 that they are and that they --
15 (Zoom audio dropped.)
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sorry, Michael,
17 you both ran out of time and you ran out of
18 sound.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Madam Chair, I
20 would just ask if I could just indulge --
21 maybe give him a chance, you know, because he
22 got cut off a couple of times, you know, on
23 an important issue.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sure.
700
1 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: I'd like to
2 ask one more question, hopefully, if I could.
3 I'd appreciate your indulgence in that, and
4 my fellow committee members.
5 Mr. Powers, the other question I was
6 going to ask you is -- I mean, the
7 commissioner talked about regarding the
8 Secure Vendor Program. He said he's waiting
9 for the right time. I would argue the right
10 time was several years ago.
11 How much is the drug contraband
12 problem contributing to this rising violence
13 that's going on in our prisons? You know,
14 what do you say about the Secure Vendor
15 Program, and what can we be doing right now
16 for it?
17 PRESIDENT POWERS: It's significant.
18 You know, a majority of the contraband is
19 coming in through the packages and through
20 the visit room. And, you know, to be able
21 to -- to hinder that in any capacity I feel
22 strongly would reduce the amount of
23 contraband coming into the facility, which
24 would ultimately reduce the amount of
701
1 violence that we're dealing with.
2 And, you know, the numbers don't lie,
3 right? I mean, you know, we're dealing with
4 a much smaller inmate population and more
5 acts of violence.
6 (Zoom audio dropped.)
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
8 I think we don't -- oh, we do have an
9 additional Senator, excuse me.
10 Senator Sue Serino.
11 SENATOR SERRANO: Thank you,
12 Chairwoman.
13 And thank you to the panel for coming
14 here today and for everything that you do. I
15 really appreciate it.
16 And Mike, you know, sometimes it's a
17 little too easy for lawmakers to evaluate the
18 issues that are discussed today from the
19 comfort of our offices, but you did a really
20 good job I think helping legislators
21 understand the challenges that your members
22 are facing every single day.
23 And having said that, can you talk a
24 little bit about the prison closures and how
702
1 they've impacted your members? Because I'm
2 sure that your members have shared some
3 personal stories with you that really might
4 help lawmakers understand that there are very
5 real people and families at the other end of
6 these decisions.
7 PRESIDENT POWERS: Yes, Senator,
8 without question. You know, it's very --
9 it's a very difficult time when a facility
10 closes regardless of where it is in the State
11 of New York --
12 (Zoom audio dropped.)
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: No --
14 PRESIDENT POWERS: Can you hear me?
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I have to say I
16 think it's unfair to ask Mr. Powers questions
17 when we can't really hear him answer. So
18 maybe just -- if it's okay, perhaps Michael
19 could reach out to Senator Serino, perhaps
20 tomorrow during daytime, from a working
21 phone. I just -- it's very -- it's unfair to
22 him, and it's not his fault that his
23 equipment isn't working correctly.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Yeah, but I
703
1 think, Madam Chair, that he's trying and I
2 think we should, you know, keep giving him a
3 little bit of indulgence. I mean, these
4 individuals that he represents are going
5 through a very difficult time with the
6 violence that's going --
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I would make
8 this suggestion. I would make this
9 suggestion, that the member ask the question
10 and if Mr. Powers has a problem with his mic,
11 I'd like him to be able to give us, in
12 writing, the answers to the question so we
13 can circulate that. Because I think we'd all
14 like to hear the answers.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: That's a good
16 answer. Thank you.
17 SENATOR SERRANO: Chairwoman, I just
18 had another part of that too that I was
19 just -- my question, maybe they can answer
20 it, is do you believe DOCCS needs to
21 reevaluate its procedure for designating
22 prisons for closure? Because I'd like to see
23 what they have to say about that.
24 And then for just for Troy, you know,
704
1 Troy, your frustration is totally
2 understandable, and we'll do what we can to
3 ensure that your concerns are heard.
4 Transparency is the least the state can do
5 for members who do so much to protect such a
6 key part of this state.
7 So thank you very much to the whole
8 panel. And thank you, Chairwoman.
9 DIRECTOR CAUPAIN: Thank you, ma'am.
10 Appreciate that.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. So
12 Troy thanks you. And let's see if Mr. Powers
13 can speak to us again to answer your last
14 question, Senator Serino.
15 (Pause.)
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I don't think so.
17 PRESIDENT POWERS: We tried switching
18 to a new microphone.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Oh, okay.
20 PRESIDENT POWERS: We tried.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We tried? Is
22 that better?
23 PRESIDENT POWERS: I hope so.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay.
705
1 SENATOR SERINO: We can hear you now.
2 PRESIDENT POWERS: So to answer your
3 question, Senator, yes, it's very difficult
4 on our staff. And many have to uproot their
5 families, uproot out of the communities in
6 which they reside. It creates a burden.
7 And this round of closure was pretty
8 significant in numbers as far as it affected
9 across the State of New York. And, you know,
10 obviously it has an impact on not only the
11 community but, you know, in the state
12 workforce as well. And it falls outside the
13 lines of security as well, because it impacts
14 civilian staff as well.
15 SENATOR SERINO: And the other part of
16 that, Mike, was do you believe that DOCCS
17 needs to reevaluate its procedure for
18 designating prisons for closure?
19 PRESIDENT POWERS: Oh, yeah. You
20 know, a good heads up would be, you know, a
21 good idea, you know, because of the impact
22 that it has. And unfortunately in the last
23 two years, you know, we had to deal with that
24 during the holiday season, you know, in
706
1 rounds of closures. So it's -- yeah, it
2 became quite difficult for many of our staff.
3 And, you know, we've been assured that
4 going forward there will be a better
5 communication mechanism in place.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Thank
7 you. I think we've gone far beyond the three
8 minutes.
9 Assemblywoman?
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes, we have a
11 number of members. So just so people know
12 their order, Assemblyman Reilly, then
13 Assemblyman Walczyk, Assemblyman Lawler,
14 Assemblyman Ra and Assemblyman Weprin.
15 But we'll start with Assemblyman
16 Reilly.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: Thank you,
18 Madam Chair.
19 Thank you to the panel.
20 I have a question directed at
21 Mr. Diamond. With the investigations of the
22 firearms and how many incidents are happening
23 throughout the state, especially that the New
24 York State Police Investigators are involved
707
1 in, I know that we talked about, during the
2 day, firearm possession by those under
3 18 years old as it appears under Raise the
4 Age.
5 How many -- do you know the number or
6 how prevalent it is where those that are
7 under 16 -- under 18 are arrested with a
8 firearm, a loaded firearm.
9 PRESIDENT DYMOND: I don't have exact
10 numbers to present to you today, but I can
11 tell you that much like gangs did 10 or 15
12 years ago with drugs, where they had the
13 younger crowd hold for them for the lesser
14 penalty, we're seeing the same pattern in
15 urban areas now where younger members of
16 gangs are carrying the guns, holding the
17 guns, because they are inevitably going to
18 Family Court, which is just not really the
19 solution for the problems we're having.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: I know under
21 Raise the Age now, currently, that if they're
22 in possession of a firearm and they display
23 it, there's a possibility they can go to
24 Youth Part Criminal if there's extenuating
708
1 circumstances and the judge accepts it from
2 the DA.
3 I actually introduced legislation that
4 would require a loaded firearm, mere
5 possession by a 16- or 17-year-old, make that
6 qualification. I'm hoping that we'll be able
7 to make that happen, because I think that's
8 something you nailed there on the head with
9 gangs using these underage kids to hold the
10 firearms.
11 Do you think that's something that you
12 guys could support? And hopefully we can get
13 the DAs Association on board as well.
14 PRESIDENT DYMOND: Yes, we would
15 absolutely support that. I think it's
16 important that everyone listening tonight
17 knows that, you know, there's a small number
18 of shooters out there. And you -- I'm sure
19 you know this from your career, there's a
20 small number in these communities.
21 But that number can do a lot of damage
22 if there's no consequences for their actions.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: So in the unit
24 that you talk about at the state level -- I
709
1 know from the NYPD, we have similar units --
2 we have those that follow shooters that have
3 participated in multiple trigger-pulls.
4 Do you keep that record? And is it
5 possible that we can expand -- if you have
6 those records, and of course not publicly --
7 but to monitor how many are under age 18?
8 PRESIDENT DYMOND: We would have to
9 work on that. Our community stabilization
10 units, which are very similar to the teams
11 that New York City is about to roll out,
12 under Mayor Adams' plan yesterday, they
13 target our violent areas, areas that are
14 seeing a spike in shootings.
15 So we could track that, but that's
16 something to definitely look into so we can
17 take some of these more prevalent shooters
18 off the street.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY: Thank you, sir.
20 PRESIDENT DYMOND: Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Senator Jamaal Bailey.
23 SENATOR BAILEY: Thank you,
24 Madam Chair.
710
1 I want to thank you all for your
2 testimony and, most importantly, for your
3 service and those that you represent, for
4 what you do.
5 Let me say that the door is always
6 open to discuss justice-related items. As
7 the chair of the Codes Committee, I welcome
8 further discussion on what your opinions may
9 be on these important justice-related
10 matters -- not necessarily in these three
11 minutes that we have here, but you should
12 feel free to reach out to me.
13 I would love to speak to you in
14 furtherance of some of the discussions that
15 Assemblymember Reilly had mentioned in
16 relation to some of the conversations about
17 Raise the Age. They can't be appropriately
18 fleshed out here, but I would hope that we
19 could have a more in-depth conversation at a
20 later time.
21 To Mr. Dymond, I wanted to ask you a
22 question. In your written testimony, you
23 spoke about the need for more equipment.
24 Could you like illuminate a little bit more
711
1 about what equipment is required? And it was
2 said $150,000. How far would that go and how
3 many investigators would that be able to
4 assist?
5 PRESIDENT DYMOND: So the equipment
6 we're specifying in that is not just the
7 firearms we're looking to get, it's the
8 holsters, concealed holsters, and ammunition.
9 And that would be concealed for the 300,
10 roughly, working undercovers we have
11 throughout the state. And they're doing, you
12 know, not just gang work, they're doing
13 antiterrorism work. They're in pretty much
14 every area of the state, from down on
15 Long Island out to Buffalo and over to
16 Plattsburgh.
17 SENATOR BAILEY: Okay. I was just
18 reviewing the written testimony. I just
19 wanted to illuminate that.
20 PRESIDENT DYMOND: Thank you.
21 SENATOR BAILEY: And to Troy Caupain,
22 I understand about the inclusion and the
23 desire be included, and I think that's a
24 laudable goal that we should all continue to
712
1 have for the conversation.
2 Mr. Powers, we've heard you loud and
3 clear in terms -- well, as loud as we can. I
4 didn't mean that. But thank you for -- but
5 seriously, thank you for sticking with this
6 and thank you for the women and men that you
7 represent and what you do. I truly
8 appreciate you.
9 And with that being said, I yield the
10 rest of my time.
11 DIRECTOR CAUPAIN: Appreciate you,
12 Senator.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
14 much, Senator.
15 Assemblywoman.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
17 Assemblyman Walczyk.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Gentlemen, to
19 you and your members, thanks for protecting
20 and thanks for serving.
21 To Mr. Powers, do we have corrections
22 officers in the State of New York who are
23 still paying off student loans?
24 PRESIDENT POWERS: I would imagine.
713
1 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: What's that
2 going to be like for morale in the facility
3 if the Governor's TAP plan goes through in
4 this budget?
5 PRESIDENT POWERS: It won't be -- it
6 probably won't be received very well.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: I'm just -- I
8 mean, you represent -- I also represent and
9 know personally a bunch of COs, some of them
10 who are still paying for college, some of
11 them who went to the State University of
12 New York and are still paying for college,
13 and they have a job as a correction officer
14 to do so.
15 And it's just -- it's amazing to me --
16 I mean, I know the CO talk, right? And
17 there's going to be free college for the --
18 some of them inmates who they're afraid that
19 will assault them in our facilities. It
20 just -- it blows my mind.
21 The Secure Vendor Program, what's
22 stopping DOCCS from finally implementing this
23 thing? What do we gotta do?
24 PRESIDENT POWERS: Pull the trigger.
714
1 You know, I mean, we've been talking
2 about this for what, four or five years now.
3 You know, they started a pilot program, it
4 got pulled out from under them. They needed
5 to make some amendments to it. And we
6 haven't seen what that looks like yet.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Was there
8 anything actually wrong with that pilot
9 program?
10 PRESIDENT POWERS: In our opinion, no.
11 You know. But, you know, there was a lot of
12 politics involved in it and a lot of advocate
13 concerns. And, you know, they shelved it.
14 And I just -- I'm just as curious as you are
15 as to where it is.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Yeah, me too.
17 If we were to implement the Secure
18 Vendor Program and some of the other
19 recommendations that you put forward -- and I
20 know this has been a challenge in our
21 facilities for a long time -- do you think by
22 doing some of these things we could actually
23 eliminate drugs or in large part eliminate
24 drugs in our facilities?
715
1 PRESIDENT POWERS: I think it would
2 significantly reduce the amount of drugs and
3 contraband in our facilities, without
4 question.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: Thanks,
6 Mr. Powers.
7 Mr. Dymond, I notice that vehicle
8 theft has doubled. Nobody's really reported
9 on this thing; it's probably not as
10 interesting to talk about as gun violence
11 every day. But vehicle theft has doubled in
12 the State of New York. Is that something we
13 should be concerned about?
14 PRESIDENT DYMOND: Yes. I think the
15 vehicle theft in the State of New York,
16 there's so many other violent, more serious
17 crimes that are increasing across the state,
18 that vehicle theft or any type of theft,
19 which you're seeing everywhere, is kind of
20 being pushed to the back.
21 As sad as that is, that's kind of the
22 situation we're in with triaging the levels
23 of importance by the crimes.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK: I hear you.
716
1 And Chairwoman, just with the
2 remainder of my time, I want to just tell the
3 membership that the Secure Vendor Program in
4 our correctional facilities, this is going to
5 help protect employees, this is going to help
6 protect inmates or incarcerated individuals,
7 those college students that we're concerned
8 about their safety.
9 This will literally save lives and,
10 for many, is the only way, if we're able to
11 eliminate drugs coming into our facilities,
12 the only way that they're actually going to
13 beat addiction. If we continue to allow
14 these drugs to get into our facilities,
15 nobody is better off. Nobody is safe. The
16 public isn't better off, the individuals
17 aren't more rehabilitated.
18 The time has come and gone -- we need
19 to put the Secure Vendor Program in now.
20 PRESIDENT POWERS: Thank you,
21 Assemblyman.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I think it's
23 still yours, Assemblywoman.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
717
1 Assemblyman Lawler, followed by
2 Assemblyman Ra.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: Thank you,
4 Chairwoman.
5 Mr. Powers, I had the opportunity to
6 tour Sing Sing over the summer, and I just
7 want to commend NYSCOPBA, I toured it with
8 them, along with the superintendent of
9 Sing Sing. And I want to commend NYSCOPBA
10 and your members. They do a professional
11 job, they go to work every day under
12 difficult circumstances. And one of my
13 biggest takeaways from meeting with your
14 members was the concern that they have for
15 their own safety and the safety of their
16 fellow corrections officers.
17 And I think it is our responsibility
18 to ensure that your members have the
19 resources and support that they need to,
20 first and foremost, ensure the safety of
21 those that are in their care, but themselves,
22 to ensure that they go home at night.
23 I think the number of attacks and
24 assaults that have occurred in the jails, in
718
1 our prisons across the state is outrageous.
2 I had the chance to visit Rikers in the fall.
3 And even though that's, you know, New York
4 City, the concerns were the same, in many
5 respects heightened, given what has gone on
6 over in Rikers.
7 And I think, you know, punitive
8 segregation is necessary when you're looking
9 at what has occurred inside the prisons and
10 the violent attacks that your officers have
11 faced. And, you know, we will see, as HALT
12 is fully implemented, the impact that will
13 have on your members. But I can assure you
14 that we will not be silent, you know, as that
15 program is fully implemented and we see the
16 consequence of it.
17 So I just want you to know we do
18 support your efforts and those of your
19 members. And I also want to just point
20 something out for you as well as your
21 colleagues on the panel. I've introduced
22 legislation so that anyone who participates
23 in the death of a law enforcement officer,
24 first responder or corrections officer gets
719
1 life in prison without the possibility of
2 parole. And I think there needs to be severe
3 consequences for those who would commit such
4 a crime. And your officers and that of
5 Mr. Dymond and Troy, your officers all
6 deserve our support. And so I just want you
7 to know that. I appreciate your work. I
8 don't really have a question for you, but I
9 wanted you to know that we support you.
10 PRESIDENT POWERS: I appreciate the
11 words, sir, and --
12 DIRECTOR CAUPAIN: Thank you.
13 PRESIDENT POWERS: -- I appreciate the
14 fact that you've gone into the facility, as
15 many legislators should.
16 And I'll be sure to convey that
17 sentiment to our front line, and we thank
18 you.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: Absolutely.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We now go to
21 Assemblyman Ra.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you, Chair.
23 Just for the Police Benevolent
24 Association of New York, Mr. -- I apologize,
720
1 Cow-pain, Ca-pain? I'm sorry.
2 DIRECTOR CAUPAIN: That's fine, sir,
3 thank you.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Sorry, I have a
5 two-letter last name, so anything longer than
6 that I have trouble with.
7 (Laughter.)
8 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: It was great to hear
9 that news about a class coming in and
10 everything. But I'm wondering if you can
11 just elaborate -- I know -- certainly I share
12 your concern for transparency in terms of,
13 you know, what portion of that budget will go
14 towards officers. But A, you know, my
15 understanding is that you're down like
16 50 percent. So what is the number of
17 officers you need to really be at full
18 strength?
19 And then also, you know, how do we
20 make sure that -- having classes is great,
21 but what do we need to do to make sure that
22 those that are going through those academy
23 classes stay within your ranks and don't --
24 and we're not just training people for other
721
1 departments?
2 DIRECTOR CAUPAIN: Great question,
3 sir. I appreciate those.
4 DCJS recognizes our tour strength
5 should be statewide, somewhere around 387.
6 And that was several years ago when we
7 submitted a staffing bill -- obviously, the
8 PBA pushed that back in 2014 or '15. But 387
9 would be a huge number for us get to, you
10 know, provide the police services across the
11 state with the increased acreage and
12 properties that we're given every year. I
13 know in the Executive Budget the Governor
14 talks about a new park in inner-city
15 Rochester, and those things. So that number
16 would be ideal for us.
17 Secondly, in order to stop the
18 revolving door, if you will -- again, I'm
19 22 years on and I've watched 498 members
20 graduate the academy, and our number is 192.
21 Again, over the last seven years we've
22 watched over 150 walk out the door.
23 So I'd say we need several things from
24 the agency as well as the state. We need to
722
1 be competitive. Obviously we work in -- you
2 know, I'm from Long Island, I work out of
3 Jones Beach -- I see your Nassau County flag.
4 you know, we have Suffolk and Nassau, you
5 know, right beside us. We have a lot of our
6 members throughout the state that work, you
7 know, in -- around municipalities where their
8 benefits are greater, their salaries are
9 greater, they have opportunities for
10 promotions and transfers and things like
11 that. And we address all of those things
12 within the Park Police.
13 So first would be the 20-year bill.
14 That would be huge for our members in order
15 to obviously give them something to look
16 forward to after a year -- excuse me, a
17 career in law enforcement.
18 We need to have, you know, a
19 geographic put in place for -- obviously, to
20 be competitive in the downstate areas. And I
21 attached the agency's geographic plan that
22 they submitted back in November of 2019 but
23 never pushed for that to continue on.
24 And then thirdly, obviously, again, we
723
1 need to be able to increase our base
2 salaries, honestly. I mean, we haven't had
3 an upgrade since 2001. So again, we're not
4 competitive in this world of law enforcement,
5 and that's a problem for us.
6 And those academy classes are going to
7 bring a lot of those members downstate, sir,
8 and we need to be able to get them back home.
9 Because if we don't then, again, they're
10 going to walk out the door. So we need to
11 have continued classes, we need to offer
12 competitive salaries and pension and
13 retirement packages, and that will enhance
14 our staffing levels -- and it will keep
15 people here.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Great. Well, thank
17 you. Thank you for all you do, you know, not
18 just with -- you know, people have -- seek
19 outdoor recreation; you guys are keeping
20 those facilities safe. And certainly we've
21 taken advantage of so many facilities that
22 you guys work in, you know, as testing sites
23 and vaccine sites over the last couple of
24 years. So thank you, sir.
724
1 DIRECTOR CAUPAIN: I appreciate you.
2 Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
4 I just have one quick question before
5 I think I close this panel down, for
6 Tim Dymond.
7 So we heard about shortages of new
8 officers, the new class -- Troy is pointing
9 out real concerns about whether any of them
10 do end up going to and staying in the
11 Park Police division of State Police.
12 And I asked the head of the State
13 Police earlier today whether there was a real
14 need to have 250 State Troopers in New York
15 City at this time. Not that I don't like
16 running into them in my city, but we also
17 have, I think, 35,000 NYPD members. And I
18 hear from my upstate colleagues that they're
19 frustrated they don't have enough
20 State Police and Park Police.
21 So I'm just curious, from your
22 perspective, do you think 250 of you should
23 be assigned to New York City at a time?
24 PRESIDENT DYMOND: I don't know what
725
1 the appropriate number is. That is not my
2 skill set.
3 I can tell you that anywhere you can
4 have New York State Troopers, you want to
5 have them, with the level of professionalism
6 and the way they carry themselves. I know
7 our members do terrific work down there with
8 the DEA, ATF, FBI task force. We offer a
9 very dynamic skill set that's utilized daily
10 down there. So that's where I'll go with
11 that.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
13 much. And then I want to thank --
14 DIRECTOR CAUPAIN: Senator, if I
15 can --
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes, please.
17 DIRECTOR CAUPAIN: If I can address
18 that question just for the Park Police
19 members, we do obviously have state parks
20 within the city -- Riverbank State Park and
21 Roberto Clemente and Gantry and Clay Pits and
22 so many others. And they're acquiring new
23 property, you know, every year.
24 Unfortunately, our New York City
726
1 region, we are woefully down in membership
2 because, again, the members that do sign up
3 and are sent to New York City, most of them
4 are from upstate and then they want to go
5 home. And obviously not having the ability
6 to go home, they leave us.
7 Another issue that we can -- the
8 Legislature can help us with is the
9 diversifying of our recruitment. Because
10 again, I don't believe the agency is truly
11 taking a really good look at how to recruit
12 New York City and the downstate area, and
13 that's obviously to their detriment and we're
14 losing a lot of members out of the New York
15 City zone.
16 So I would say we do have a footprint
17 because of the environments that we work in.
18 We just need to be able to recruit in and
19 around those areas so we can keep those
20 members downstate.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Well, I want to
22 thank all three of you again for joining us
23 tonight, and we look forward to continuing to
24 work with all of you and your members.
727
1 And I'm going to call up the next and
2 last panel --
3 DIRECTOR CAUPAIN: Thank you, Madam
4 Chair.
5 PRESIDENT DYMOND: Thank you.
6 PRESIDENT POWERS: Thank you.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
8 DIRECTOR CAUPAIN: Thank you,
9 Chairwoman Weinstein.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We have the
11 District Attorneys Association of New York,
12 Anthony Jordan; We have the New York State
13 Court Clerks Association, Imogene Jones; we
14 have the Center for Judicial Accountability,
15 Elena Sassower.
16 So in the order that I called you,
17 Anthony Jordan.
18 DAASNY PRESIDENT JORDAN: Great.
19 Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And Chairwoman
20 Weinstein, thank you, and the esteemed
21 members who've persevered today. I saw you
22 start at 9:30, so it's been a long day.
23 Thanks for the opportunity to speak to
24 you briefly, and I think I would start with
728
1 saying that there are some things certainly
2 in the Executive Budget that are encouraging,
3 including ITAP and NIBIN. Those are
4 certainly important initiatives and ones that
5 we hope continue to be pushed forward.
6 What I want to touch on, though, is
7 what this Executive Budget really is lacking.
8 And I think most importantly, it's lacking
9 adequate resources to bring about the stated
10 goals that you all worked so hard and pushed,
11 beginning really in 2019 and even before, in
12 terms of criminal justice transformation, for
13 lack of the better word, and what has
14 occurred since.
15 And the budget -- this budget I think,
16 for one, really grossly underfunds pretrial
17 services. And that problem, that lack of
18 funding continues to contribute to a
19 significant resource gap throughout the
20 state, and something that ought to be and we
21 would encourage this body to consider.
22 But I think most importantly, this
23 budget continues to ignore the funding needs
24 and the costs of discovery. We've repeatedly
729
1 cautioned, beginning when these discussions
2 were beginning in earnest in 2019, that there
3 were going to be significant costs and
4 significant burdens associated with honoring
5 the spirit of that law and maintaining
6 compliance.
7 Counties have certainly been
8 advocating that they can't afford the
9 significant costs. And the result of this, I
10 think you're compromising victims, witnesses
11 and ultimately really harming the very
12 communities that you're charged with
13 protecting.
14 I think I would close -- and then open
15 for any questions, certainly. But if the
16 goal of the changes to discovery was to
17 improve the exchange of information, that is
18 something that the state should step up and
19 fund. And that is something that is lacking
20 in this budget. And we would certainly ask
21 and encourage that this body, both Senate and
22 Assembly, look to add important funding to
23 address those needs.
24 So thank you very much for giving us
730
1 this opportunity, and I'll answer any
2 questions or let you move on to the next
3 panelist.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. We'll
5 take all three of you and then we'll ask
6 questions. So thank you.
7 DAASNY PRESIDENT JORDAN: Thank you,
8 Senator.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
10 Imogene Jones.
11 NYSCCA PRESIDENT JONES: Good evening,
12 everyone. My name is Imogene V. Jones, and I
13 have the pleasure of being the president of
14 the New York State Court Clerks Association.
15 It's truly an honor to be before this august
16 body.
17 The Court Clerks Association is
18 composed of women and men working for the
19 Unified Court System in one of 19 supervisory
20 peace officer titles, including senior court
21 clerk and going up to deputy chief clerk,
22 located within the City of New York. With
23 over 1300 active and well over 1,000 retired
24 members, the Court Clerks Association is one
731
1 of the largest of the 11 employee
2 associations within the Unified Court System
3 of the State of New York. Our office is
4 located in Tribeca, at the core of the Big
5 Apple.
6 I've been employed by the New York
7 State court system for 32 years, and a civil
8 servant for 38. Today I urge you to look
9 favorably on the budget bills affecting the
10 court system. The system is suffering from
11 years of a starvation budget. The COVID-19
12 pandemic has wreaked havoc on the entire
13 court system.
14 As with many of our society's
15 institutions, years of neglect, the failure
16 to maintain infrastructure, and the failure
17 to cohesively implement modern technology has
18 made it very difficult for the courts to
19 deliver service as expected and deserved.
20 Despite the circumstances throughout
21 the pandemic, court clerks have done their
22 jobs. Our foremost challenge has been the
23 loss of employees. The courts are currently
24 suffering from unacceptable backlogs because
732
1 no one is there to do the work. Please
2 remember, as we prioritize cases involving
3 life and death, justice delayed is justice
4 denied.
5 In 2020 our membership was just under
6 1600 members, and as of today's date our
7 active members total 1332. In recent years
8 we've had over 1700 members. This incredible
9 loss of personnel, coupled with the salary
10 compression of our titles with those of lower
11 civil service titles, has led to incredibly
12 bad morale. It is long past time for the UCS
13 to reallocate our titles and pay us
14 accordingly.
15 The basic infrastructure, the
16 courthouses and courtrooms in New York City,
17 are in deplorable condition. The buildings
18 are crumbling, the basements where records
19 are often stored are dank, there is old and
20 broken furniture needing to be replaced. The
21 HVAC systems are wholly inadequate. These
22 buildings are the responsibility of the City
23 of New York. The State of New York should
24 hold the city accountable for these failures
733
1 and, if necessary, make the improvements and
2 charge-back the city, the same as the city
3 would do to a homeowner for a dangerous
4 sidewalk condition.
5 The court system's technology consists
6 of outdated computers, printers, scanners and
7 other equipment. The wifi service, which
8 modern civilization takes for granted, is
9 spotty, slow and inadequate. The video
10 formats for remote hearings, although they
11 are to be secure, are clunky compared to
12 available freeware. Which leads me to
13 comment on the software. Too many
14 applications are incapable of
15 cross-referencing and communicating with each
16 other. An address updated in Family Court
17 should automatically update a record in
18 Criminal Court.
19 It is probably easy for you to listen
20 to this and think, Well, this is government,
21 what do you expect? I will tell you what I
22 expect. I expect the equipment to do my job.
23 I expect to work in a safe environment. And
24 I expect to be paid for the full value of my
734
1 work.
2 Thank you very much for the
3 opportunity to be heard.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
5 much.
6 And then the last person on the panel,
7 Elena Sassower, from Center for Judicial
8 Accountability.
9 Hmm. Is Elena not with us? Or is she
10 just not --
11 CJA DIRECTOR SASSOWER: Hi. I'm
12 sorry --
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Ah, there you
14 are. Okay.
15 CJA DIRECTOR SASSOWER: Yes. My
16 statement is three minutes. I would ask your
17 indulgence if I go over perhaps a couple of
18 seconds so that I don't have to race through
19 it. Thank you.
20 I am Elena Sassower, director and
21 cofounder of the nonpartisan, nonprofit
22 citizens' organization Center for Judicial
23 Accountability.
24 By two citizen taxpayer actions we've
735
1 sued New York's three government branches for
2 corrupting the state budget. Each was
3 "thrown," by fraudulent decisions of
4 self-interested judges of the Unified Court
5 System, whose chief administrative judge,
6 Lawrence Marks, was your first witness and
7 was, with them, protected from accountability
8 by the Commission on Judicial Conduct, whose
9 administrator/counsel, Robert Tembeckjian,
10 was your second witness.
11 Andrew Cuomo may be gone as governor,
12 and Sheldon Silver long gone as Assembly
13 speaker and now dead, but Governor Hochul's
14 Executive Budget, with its included
15 legislative and judiciary budgets, is just as
16 flagrantly unconstitutional and rife with
17 unlawfulness, fraud, and larceny.
18 Thus far, the Legislature's response
19 has been of the same ilk. Look at how these
20 legislative hearings are being conducted --
21 not as hearings for each of Governor Hochul's
22 five appropriations bills, plus a revenue
23 bill -- consistent with the constitutional
24 scheme of a rolling budget, enacted bill by
736
1 bill. Rather, they are organized by
2 so-called "programmatic areas," with
3 testimony and questioning mostly not about
4 numbers, but about non-fiscal policy, such as
5 Governor Hochul has loaded into so-called
6 Article VII legislation, not bills -- which
7 the Legislature, by fraud, has converted into
8 budget bills, in the Governor's name,
9 including for "public protection."
10 And the 10 minutes that citizens used
11 to have for their testimony, as recently as
12 2018, is now three minutes.
13 Suffice to bullet point that the
14 unconstitutionality, fraud, and larceny of
15 the state budget have been enabled and
16 perpetuated by New York's corrupt "public
17 protection" entities funded in the budget.
18 The Commission on Judicial Conduct is a prime
19 example. Others include the Judiciary's
20 attorney grievance committees, the
21 Judiciary's Inspector General, the Joint
22 Commission on Public Ethics, the Legislative
23 Ethics Commission, and the State Inspector
24 General.
737
1 It is not a heavy lift to fix their
2 corruption. Indeed, it does not necessarily
3 require emendation of existing laws --
4 because, in many respects, the laws
5 establishing them are perfectly fine, even
6 exemplary. Rather, the laws are being
7 violated by those appointed to operate them,
8 such as Mr. Tembeckjian. In other words, the
9 personnel needs to be investigated,
10 prosecuted, and removed. And this is obvious
11 from comparing the laws with how the "public
12 protection" entities have handled complaints
13 filed pursuant thereto.
14 I look forward to discussing with you
15 the mountain of fully-documented complaints
16 pertaining to the budget that I have filed
17 with all the aforesaid "public protection"
18 entities -- and others. When are you
19 available?
20 Our website is www.judgewatch.org, and
21 from its prominent center panel entitled
22 "Comparing New York's Legislature Before &
23 After its Fraudulent Pay Raise," you can find
24 the evidentiary substantiation of this
738
1 testimony.
2 Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
4 All right, Senator Bailey, I saw your
5 hand up.
6 SENATOR BAILEY: Thank you,
7 Madam Chair. I thank you all for your
8 indulgence in staying up to the final panel.
9 DA Jordan, you mentioned that the
10 funding needs were not adequate. What would
11 be a sufficient amount that you would believe
12 would be adequate?
13 DAASNY PRESIDENT JORDAN: Thank you,
14 Senator.
15 What we have looked at in terms of
16 ongoing needs are -- you're probably looking
17 statewide at $100 million, is what we're --
18 best estimates based on technology, human
19 need, storage, training, and then additional
20 staffing for the review, especially -- I
21 think a very important initiative was the
22 implementation of body cameras for
23 State Police.
24 The consequence of that is they have a
739
1 very expansive policy for the length of time
2 that the cameras are on, which is ultimately
3 a very good positive, but that means
4 significantly more visual time to be
5 reviewing that.
6 So all of that comes with a benefit
7 and a cost. So that's roughly the number
8 we're probably looking at. Some of that
9 could be trimmed down, I think, if there were
10 some -- well, I know it could be reduced if
11 we were able to provide some modification not
12 in the ultimate delivery of documents, but
13 the timing within which that had to happen.
14 So I think there is room to work
15 for -- without ever compromising the
16 intention and goal of the changes to
17 discovery, but try to balance limited
18 budgets, right, with accomplishing the goal
19 of making sure defendants have everything
20 they need to make a balanced and intelligent
21 decision.
22 SENATOR BAILEY: Understood,
23 DA Jordan.
24 So when you say $100 million, do you
740
1 mean $100 million per year, $100 million in
2 totality, or phased over what period of time?
3 DAASNY PRESIDENT JORDAN: I think that
4 is our initial estimate per year, based on
5 all-in costs to do it right.
6 But again, I think because that can
7 be -- you know, that is a number that we have
8 been discussing and kicking around. I think
9 until you actually look at where do we end
10 and how do we balance it out -- I think
11 as we've looked at addressing the need for
12 discovery, one of the benefits, and I know it
13 was a problem for the court administration,
14 as they testified earlier, but the shutdown
15 of courts gave us time to get caught up, and
16 that is now gone.
17 So I think what we're looking at is a
18 significant need for increasing bodies just
19 to push through discovery.
20 SENATOR BAILEY: And I guess the last
21 question related to -- and having prior
22 conversations, I think that you were there
23 physically at one of the hearings that we had
24 and speaking about the regional differences
741
1 in county versus county. Some DA's offices
2 have been updated more recently, for lack of
3 a better term, and some unfortunately are
4 still running on relatively antiquated
5 equipment.
6 Does that also factor into the
7 $100 million figure? Or is that just the
8 global scale? And I think I've run out of
9 time, sorry.
10 DAASNY PRESIDENT JORDAN: I think one
11 of the resource gaps we see is the haves and
12 the have-nots. And that's something we
13 should always look to address.
14 But technology is definitely a gap
15 where those that have current technology,
16 it's a little bit easier, because they can be
17 more dynamic in their ability to review
18 things.
19 So yeah, that's definitely something
20 that we see as a challenge.
21 SENATOR BAILEY: Okay. And we can
22 follow up at a later time in relation to
23 other things.
24 I just want to thank you for your
742
1 patience and everybody for your patience in
2 this respect. And thank you --
3 DAASNY PRESIDENT JORDAN: Please do.
4 I look forward to working with you, Senator.
5 SENATOR BAILEY: Thank you, DA Jordan,
6 Mr. President.
7 Thank you, Madam Chair.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
9 Assemblywoman?
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
11 Lawler.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: Thank you,
13 Madam Chair.
14 Tony, I hope you're doing well. I'm
15 sure when you left the Assembly you didn't
16 envision being back on these budget hearings,
17 but here you are.
18 So I just want to address really one,
19 if you would, concern that I have. And it
20 really comes down to this. I certainly
21 believe that district attorneys should have
22 discretion in the charges that they bring,
23 based on evidence or lack thereof. But I do
24 not believe that district attorneys should be
743
1 blanketly saying "I will not enforce this law
2 because I don't agree with it." If they
3 don't like the law, they should run for the
4 State Legislature.
5 I'd like to know what the official
6 position of the District Attorneys
7 Association is with respect to members openly
8 defying the State Legislature and deciding
9 that their judgment is better than that of
10 the members who are elected to set the laws
11 of the State of New York and to blanketly
12 say, We will not enforce laws or to downgrade
13 those laws across the board.
14 DAASNY PRESIDENT JORDAN: So much like
15 you all, the DAs Association consists of
16 62 independently elected district attorneys
17 who represent their particular counties. And
18 we're all tasked with delivering criminal
19 justice in the way that we feel best
20 represents our communities.
21 The association is not in a position
22 to criticize or condemn someone who is, in
23 their mind, reflecting the values and the
24 desires of their county. I'm assuming -- you
744
1 know, in this particular instance DA Bragg is
2 new, DA Bragg is attempting to navigate
3 challenging waters. And, you know, what I
4 would suggest is that we all give him time to
5 find where he has hit the right message and
6 is addressing the right problems. And I
7 think we already heard him looking to say,
8 you know, there's things that we need to
9 address.
10 And so much like in your chamber, you
11 all have different constituents and different
12 needs, and I think that's very similar with
13 the 62 DAs.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: And there's no
15 question there's different parts of the
16 state. I just think it is deeply concerning
17 when a district attorney who is sworn to
18 uphold all of the laws of the State of
19 New York openly defies those laws and says:
20 I will not enforce them, I will not --
21 regardless of the evidence, regardless of the
22 facts, regardless of the circumstances, I'm
23 not going to enforce that.
24 I just think that's deeply troubling.
745
1 And I certainly hope within the DAs
2 Association internally -- you don't have to
3 share those discussions -- I do hope that
4 there is some level of pushback against that,
5 because it's a very dangerous precedent to
6 set across our state.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
8 Senator Brad Hoylman.
9 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you,
10 Madam Chair. We've almost made it to the
11 end, and I can see the finish line. So thank
12 you to the two chairwomen for this really
13 robust conversation that we've been having
14 today.
15 I just wanted to note that DA Bragg is
16 not the first district attorney to say that
17 he won't prosecute certain crimes. There's a
18 long history of that.
19 But I wanted to ask a question to our
20 court clerk representative, Ms. Jones. Thank
21 you for being here, really appreciate it. I
22 don't know if you heard, but Judge Marks
23 earlier today, the first person to testify,
24 alluded to the fact that the Chief Judge is
746
1 going to seek, again, consideration of a
2 court consolidation proposal.
3 And I was wondering what your thoughts
4 about that were, if you've been consulted on
5 anything up to now, and if your members have
6 concerns you want to share with us.
7 NYSCCA PRESIDENT JONES: Thank you so
8 very much, Mr. Hoylman for your question.
9 No, we have not been consulted in
10 regards to the consolidation. We've had no
11 input whatsoever. We would like some.
12 The problem that we see -- one of the
13 problems we see is the lack of people to
14 implement these items.
15 I want to say -- to Mr. Jordan, I want
16 to say that you were incorrect to say that
17 the courts were shut down. Truly, let me say
18 that myself and my fellow coworkers were
19 there at the courthouse every day from the
20 beginning of this pandemic, especially when
21 you consider talking about criminal court
22 cases, where there's a time frame and people
23 must be processed. And so the courts were
24 open every day in regards to that.
747
1 And we have some concerns about the
2 consolidation because of the fact of the lack
3 of manpower that we have. And as I said in
4 my statement, that we're down to 1300
5 members, and we need way more than that if
6 you want to consolidate a court.
7 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Thank you very much.
8 Thank you for your service.
9 And thank you, Chair Krueger.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
11 Assemblymember Weinstein.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
13 Palmesano.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Thank you.
15 Hey, Tony, it's good to see you. It's
16 been a long time. Hope you're doing well.
17 My question is around the issue of
18 discovery. When we talk about the bail -- a
19 lot of time -- there's always talk about the
20 bail laws, but the discovery laws come up a
21 lot when we talk about it.
22 My first question on that issue is
23 have you seen -- have our counties and our
24 DAs had to dismiss cases due to the inability
748
1 to comply with the discovery laws and
2 potentially releasing dangerous individuals
3 back onto the street, and to what extent?
4 DAASNY PRESIDENT JORDAN: And if I
5 could, Assemblyman -- Ms. Jones, I apologize.
6 I meant not to have suggested that your staff
7 wasn't coming in, but that the functioning of
8 processing cases -- or not processing, but
9 actually moving cases was delayed.
10 So I apologize, I certainly didn't
11 mean to imply that you folks weren't coming
12 in and working, because I certainly know that
13 you were.
14 Relative to dismissing of cases --
15 sorry, Phil -- absolutely. I know there's
16 been a significant number of cases around the
17 state that have had to be dismissed because
18 law enforcement couldn't get the material to
19 the prosecutor's office timely in order to
20 then be able to turn over, in compliance with
21 the requirements of the statute.
22 And much of that has been well-covered
23 and well-documented. But hundreds and
24 hundreds of misdemeanor cases in our city
749
1 courts have had to be dismissed by DAs around
2 the state. And that's unfortunate, because
3 that's not justice, that's not being able to
4 fit a widget through a particular-sized hole.
5 And that's not the way -- I don't think that
6 was the goal of the legislation when it was
7 passed, and it's certainly not something that
8 we want to see happen.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Great. Also
10 on the issue on discovery is your timing and
11 your releasing of that information -- you
12 know, when it's released, how early compared
13 to how it used to be.
14 Have these changes in the discovery
15 laws impacted witness and victim cooperation?
16 And if so, how?
17 DAASNY PRESIDENT JORDAN: It has. I
18 certainly couldn't tell you percentages or
19 the extent. But we do hear on a regular
20 basis concerns from witnesses and victims
21 when we can't assure them that their
22 identities won't be disclosed. We used to be
23 able to control that fact or that part of the
24 process much easier, and now it is dependent
750
1 upon a motion in front of a court. And
2 that's just a different conversation with the
3 witness or a victim that, well, we'll do our
4 best to protect your identity for as long as
5 we can, but -- and once you say the "but,"
6 depending on the nature of the crime, what
7 they witnessed, their own sensibilities or
8 sense of self-confidence is going to dictate
9 whether or not they cooperate at that point.
10 And we see it from simple vehicle and
11 traffic matters to street shootings.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: (Muted.)
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Phil, we can't
14 hear, but the time is up. So I don't know if
15 that was --
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes, I think
17 that's -- the time is up.
18 Senator Tom O'Mara.
19 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you. Palmesano
20 got the hook, huh? For the end of the night.
21 That's appropriate for Phil. Sorry, Phil.
22 DA Jordan, Assemblyman, it's great to
23 see you, be with you. We still miss you in
24 the Legislature.
751
1 I have a couple of follow-up questions
2 on discovery. I think you maybe intimated a
3 bit in some of your initial comments that
4 some changes to some of the timing of the
5 discovery requirements might be helpful in
6 the flow, in the management of your offices,
7 to be able to better handle the discovery.
8 Could you comment on that?
9 DAASNY PRESIDENT JORDAN: I think the
10 objective of that would be to try to take the
11 critical pieces of the discovery and get them
12 out as quickly as possible.
13 But when it comes to the, you know,
14 13th memo book of the officer directing
15 traffic and those types of items that don't
16 go to the merits of the case, and all of the
17 lab, the background of the lab work, all of
18 the different material that goes with that,
19 those would be the things, if we could find a
20 way to create a staggering of what's due and
21 when it's due.
22 Also, quite frankly, allow defendants
23 to waive delivery of certain discovery in
24 order to pursue a plea negotiation. Not
752
1 allow us to make plea negotiations contingent
2 upon that -- but if they choose to want to
3 move the case along, because there's a lot of
4 value in that, and certainty and
5 understanding, that would be the stuff that
6 we're thinking about.
7 To give you a sense, when they
8 estimated how much data we would use, the
9 estimate -- what we ultimately did just in
10 the first year, so 2020 -- and that was
11 during -- when crime numbers were down, we
12 were four and a half times the amount of
13 storage that was anticipated based on
14 historical use. Just so you can get a sense
15 of how much is really out there but doesn't
16 really go to the merits of the case in terms
17 of plea discussions.
18 Certainly trial, all of that should be
19 delivered. And delivered well before trial.
20 SENATOR O'MARA: I agree. And as a
21 former prosecutor myself, I welcomed a lot of
22 these discovery changes to move things up,
23 just out of basic fairness, because some of
24 stuff was so last-minute being provided.
753
1 Now, this is -- these changes have
2 been in effect, you said, really starting in
3 2020, and we've pretty much been in COVID
4 throughout that entire period, and courts
5 have slowed down in handling cases in jury
6 trials and things like that.
7 Do you have any sense yet at this
8 point, because of the COVID situation, what
9 the impacts of the discovery and the bail
10 reforms have been on the general disposition
11 of cases? And how much is this going to
12 prolong cases? Or is it going to, you think,
13 force more cases to trial or just have later
14 plea bargain discussions on these?
15 You know, it's just too early to tell
16 because of COVID and the whole situation that
17 we've had for two years.
18 DAASNY PRESIDENT JORDAN: COVID --
19 I'll be quick, Chairwoman. COVID has made it
20 difficult to say with any kind of degree of
21 certainty. But what we are definitely seeing
22 is a significant increase in litigation.
23 Just look at the types of decisions that are
24 being -- or issues that are being litigated.
754
1 And the more litigation you have, the longer
2 the case will be delayed and the longer that
3 justice is prolonged.
4 And it's not litigation over merits,
5 over probable cause, over suppression. It's
6 litigation over whether did the failure to
7 provide this memo book constitute bad faith
8 and the case should be dismissed? And when
9 you get that type of distraction from judges
10 being able to manage cases and make important
11 decisions, that I think is where we would
12 like to see some guidance.
13 And certainly when you read the
14 decisions, that's what these judges are
15 saying: You know, it would be nice to have
16 better guidance or clarity as to what this
17 all means.
18 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you.
19 DAASNY PRESIDENT JORDAN: Thank you,
20 Tom.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Assemblywoman Weinstein.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes, we go to
24 Assemblyman Ra.
755
1 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you, Chair.
2 Tony, good to see you. But I have a
3 question actually for Ms. Jones.
4 Earlier we discussed somewhat with
5 Chief Administrative Judge Marks regarding
6 the adequacy of funding within OCA for -- you
7 know, we have the new judges that were added
8 last year, and obviously funding for adequate
9 staff is important. And you did talk about,
10 you know, funding being needed to get rid of
11 the backlogs that we now have.
12 I was wondering if you can address
13 what you're seeing with regard to that.
14 NYSCCA PRESIDENT JONES: Well, we have
15 mounds and mounds of work that is backing up
16 and less equipment to do it. It seems that
17 they want us to do more with less. And we
18 have less staffing.
19 As I said, the equipments are
20 outdated. You know, we don't -- the state
21 does not buy top-of-the-line equipment on
22 anything, as we all know. So it's already
23 two years behind, usually, when they purchase
24 it in the first place.
756
1 And so it's just difficult. And with
2 lack of -- our members leaving, resigning or
3 retiring because of whatever reasons,
4 attrition, that it's just less people there
5 to get the work done. Hiring more judges,
6 but you don't have clerks to cover judges.
7 You have judges who are sitting in chambers
8 because there's no clerk to cover their
9 parts.
10 So it's very difficult to correct
11 backlog when you don't -- are not given all
12 the efficient equipment and personnel that
13 you need to get it done.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
15 Just quickly with my remaining time,
16 Tony, I wanted to bring up -- there was that
17 decision back in the fall regarding the
18 requirement of, you know, potentially turning
19 over information about crime victims and the
20 ability to visit the scene of a crime -- in
21 particular, a person's home. And I know the
22 DAs Association had kind of weighed in with
23 regard to that.
24 I'm just wondering your thoughts as to
757
1 whether that provision, you know, has caused
2 fear for crime victims in reporting crimes,
3 especially when it's their home that's, you
4 know, the setting of a crime.
5 DAASNY PRESIDENT JORDAN: Well, if
6 it's -- I don't know whether it's caused fear
7 about reporting a crime, because typically
8 it's going to be in the instance of a violent
9 crime, a home invasion, which is -- you know,
10 causes lifetime damage. It's the anxiety and
11 angst of the victim when they find out that
12 that motion is pending. Right? That now
13 this person wants to come back, and all of
14 the uncertainty.
15 One of the challenges, what will be
16 interesting is to see how the Appellate
17 Divisions work all of this out in the coming
18 years if that provision isn't stricken.
19 Certainly that decision was a very powerful
20 statement as to the damage that such a
21 provision can cause, but that's something
22 that we'll just have to continue to monitor.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thanks.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
758
1 All right, to close us out for this
2 hearing, Senator Sue Serino.
3 SENATOR SERINO: Thank you,
4 Chairwoman. I know it's been a long day, and
5 I appreciate both you and Assemblymember --
6 Chairman Weinstein.
7 First I just want to say to Imogene
8 that I know that our court clerks play such a
9 critical role, and I really appreciate
10 everything that you do, so thank you so much.
11 And for DA Jordan, Senator O'Mara and
12 Assemblyman Palmesano asked a few of the
13 questions that I had, but I just have one
14 more with regard to the discovery reforms
15 that went into effect in 2020 had really
16 increased the amount of materials that are
17 required to be turned over while
18 significantly decreasing the amount of time
19 the prosecutors have to turn over those
20 materials. Right?
21 So I hear from my DAs in my area about
22 these challenges, and I know that the funding
23 that you're seeking is not only reasonable
24 but necessary to ensure that you can comply
759
1 and still effectively seek justice for the
2 victims.
3 But can you describe some of the
4 logistical challenges that these reforms have
5 posed for the district attorneys' offices?
6 Kind of to give folks an idea of the human
7 impact that these changes have had.
8 DAASNY PRESIDENT JORDAN: It glitched.
9 I think you said "technical challenges,"
10 Senator?
11 SENATOR SERINO: Some of the
12 logistical challenges.
13 DAASNY PRESIDENT JORDAN: Logistical,
14 okay. Sure.
15 Well, some of the things that
16 Ms. Jones was saying about technology within
17 the court clerks' offices are very real
18 problems that we have to face. We have law
19 enforcement agencies around the state that
20 some are still using some version of DOS, I
21 think, in terms of their computer system, and
22 they have to find a way to get us the
23 material.
24 And so what we've had to do is we've
760
1 taken hundreds of police agencies that all
2 use different software programs, have
3 different technology, and we have to find a
4 way to have them get all of their information
5 to us. And then once we have it, this is
6 where -- you know, so some of it is
7 technology, but then this information all has
8 to be reviewed by human eyes because you want
9 to make sure that confidential information
10 isn't inadvertently disclosed. A
11 grandmother's Social Security number. The
12 phone number for -- you know, a home phone
13 number for the victim of a crime.
14 So those are all things that have to
15 be reviewed. And all of that within, you
16 know, 20 days, has to come in, be reviewed
17 and pushed out the door. And there was some
18 lengthening of that, I think, to 35 days,
19 30 days. But we've always tried to stick
20 with the shorter turn-around to get all of
21 that in. And it's very difficult, especially
22 with cases that are crimes in progress where
23 the police have to make the arrest for public
24 safety, but then the investigation is
761
1 ongoing. So you have that constant pull and
2 tug.
3 And this is happening hundreds of
4 times a day in larger counties and dozens of
5 times a day in our office, which is a smaller
6 office and with fewer people. So I think
7 it's that -- trying to find that balance.
8 Oh, by the way, we have to get the local
9 court, we have to cover hearings, we have to
10 cover trials, we have to meet with victims,
11 et cetera. And I think that's where the
12 staffing needs to really come in and -- to
13 address that challenge.
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
15 much for your answers.
16 And with that, I am going to
17 officially close the Public Protection
18 hearing of 2022. I want to thank my friend
19 and partner in government, Helene Weinstein,
20 from the Assembly Ways and Means Committee.
21 And you'll be excited to know, in case
22 you really don't know what else to do past a
23 few hours from now, you can come right back
24 for the Education hearing, starting at 9:30
762
1 in the morning.
2 I want to thank all of our panelists
3 today throughout the day. I want to thank
4 all my colleagues, from both houses, both
5 parties, who sat through a 13-hour hearing.
6 And this is just the first of 13 of them.
7 So with that, I wish everyone a safe
8 home and we'll all -- many of us will be back
9 here at 9:30 in the morning.
10 Thank you very much, everyone. Good
11 night.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you, Liz.
13 Ditto.
14 NYSCCA PRESIDENT JONES: Thank you,
15 and good night, everyone.
16 (Whereupon, at 10:29 p.m., the budget
17 hearing concluded.)
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