1
1 BEFORE THE NEW YORK STATE SENATE FINANCE
AND ASSEMBLY WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEES
2 ----------------------------------------------------
JOINT LEGISLATIVE HEARING
3 In the Matter of the
2023-2024 EXECUTIVE BUDGET
4 ON TRANSPORTATION
5 ----------------------------------------------------
6 Hearing Room B
Legislative Office Building
7 Albany, New York
8 February 6, 2023
11:40 a.m.
9
10 PRESIDING:
11 Senator Liz Krueger
Chair, Senate Finance Committee
12
Assemblywoman Helene E. Weinstein
13 Chair, Assembly Ways & Means Committee
14 PRESENT:
15 Senator Thomas F. O'Mara
Senate Finance Committee (RM)
16
Assemblyman Edward P. Ra
17 Assembly Ways & Means Committee (RM)
18 Senator Timothy M. Kennedy
Chair, Senate Committee on Transportation
19
Assemblyman William B. Magnarelli
20 Chair, Assembly Committee on Transportation
21 Senator Leroy Comrie
Chair, Senate Committee on Corporations,
22 Authorities & Commissions
23 Assemblyman Kenneth Zebrowski
Chair, Assembly Committee on Corporations,
24 Authorities & Commissions
2
1 2023-2024 Executive Budget
Transportation
2 2-6-23
3 PRESENT: (Continued)
4 Assemblyman Jonathan G. Jacobson
5 Senator George M. Borrello
6 Assemblyman Charles D. Fall
7 Assemblywoman Emily Gallagher
8 Senator Shelley B. Mayer
9 Assemblywoman Jessica González-Rojas
10 Senator Jessica Ramos
11 Assemblyman Steven Otis
12 Assemblywoman Jo Anne Simon
13 Senator Peter Oberacker
14 Assemblyman Robert C. Carroll
15 Senator John C. Liu
16 Assemblywoman Gina Sillitti
17 Assemblywoman Marcela Mitaynes
18 Senator Brad Hoylman-Sigal
19 Assemblywoman Taylor Darling
20 Senator Roxanne Persaud
21 Assemblywoman Rebecca A. Seawright
22 Senator Jeremy A. Cooney
23 Assemblywoman Patricia Fahy
24 Assemblyman Philip A. Palmesano
3
1 2023-2024 Executive Budget
Transportation
2 2-6-23
3 PRESENT: (Continued)
4 Senator Kristen Gonzalez
5 Assemblyman John Lemondes
6 Assemblyman Erik M. Dilan
7 Assemblywoman MaryJane Shimsky
8 Senator Mario R. Mattera
9 Assemblywoman Karen McMahon
10 Assemblyman Robert Smullen
11 Senator Andrew Gounardes
12 Assemblywoman Jodi Giglio
13 Assemblyman Michael Durso
14 Assemblyman Matt Slater
15 Senator Michelle Hinchey
16 Assemblyman Brian Curran
17 Assemblyman John W. McGowan
18 Assemblyman Michael J. Norris
19 Senator James Skoufis
20 Assemblyman Zohran K. Mamdani
21 Assemblyman Brian D. Miller
22 Assemblyman Tony Simone
23 Assemblywoman Sarahana Shrestha
24 Assemblyman Kenny Burgos
4
1 2023-2024 Executive Budget
Transportation
2 2-6-23
3 PRESENT: (Continued)
4 Senator Nathalia Fernandez
5 Assemblyman George Alvarez
6 Assemblyman Alex Bores
7 Assemblyman Brian Cunningham
8 Assemblyman Ron Kim
9 Assemblyman Manny De Los Santos
10 Assemblyman Josh Jensen
11
12
13
14 LIST OF SPEAKERS
15 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
16 Janno Lieber
Chairman and CEO
17 Metropolitan Transportation
Authority (MTA) 12 22
18
Marie Therese Dominguez
19 Commissioner
NYS Department of Transportation 203 212
20
Mark J.F. Schroeder
21 Commissioner
New York State Department
22 of Motor Vehicles
-and-
23 Frank G. Hoare
Interim Executive Director
24 NYS Thruway Authority 355 351
5
1 2023-2024 Executive Budget
Transportation
2 2-6-2023
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Bill Carpenter
President
6 NY Public Transit Association
-and-
7 Lisa Daglian
Executive Director
8 Permanent Citizens Advisory
Committee to the MTA
9 -and-
Walter Pacholczak
10 Vice President of Government
Affairs
11 Associated General Contractors
of New York State 442 451
12
Holly Tanner
13 Columbia County Clerk and
NYSACC DMV Committee Chair
14 New York State Association
of County Clerks (NYSACC)
15 -and-
David Miller
16 President
NYS Association of Town
17 Superintendents of Highways
-and-
18 Kevin Rooney
President
19 NYS County Highway
Superintendents Association
20 (NYSCHSA)
-and-
21 Fred Hiffa
Technical Consultant
22 Rebuild NY Now 465 478
23
24
6
1 2023-2024 Executive Budget
Transportation
2 2-6-2023
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Steve Strauss
Executive Director
6 Empire State Passengers
Association
7 -and-
Gregory Topping
8 President
New York Aviation Managers
9 Association (NYAMA)
-and-
10 Scott Wigger
Executive Director
11 Railroads of New York 497 506
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
7
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Good morning.
2 I am Helene Weinstein, chair of the
3 New York State Assembly Ways and Means
4 Committee and cochair of today's hearing.
5 And today we begin the first in a
6 series of 13 hearings conducted by the joint
7 fiscal committees of the Legislature
8 regarding the Governor's proposed budget for
9 fiscal year 2023-2024. The hearings are
10 conducted pursuant to the New York State
11 Constitution and the Legislative Law.
12 And today our committee will hear
13 testimony concerning the Governor's budget
14 proposal for transportation.
15 I'll now take a moment or two to
16 introduce the members of the Assembly
17 Majority who are here. After that,
18 Senator Krueger will introduce her
19 colleagues, and our respective rankers will
20 introduce their colleagues.
21 So with us in the Assembly we have
22 Mr. Zebrowski, chairman of the Corporations
23 Committee; Mr. Magnarelli, chair of the
24 Transportation Committee; a number of
8
1 colleagues of ours -- Assemblyman Dilan,
2 Assemblyman Otis, Assemblywoman Shimsky,
3 Assemblyman Carroll, Assemblywoman Mitaynes,
4 Assemblywoman Shrestha, Assemblywoman
5 Sillitti, Assemblywoman Simon, and
6 Assemblyman Jacobson. There may be some
7 others who will join us as the meeting
8 progresses.
9 Senator Krueger, your colleagues,
10 please?
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Good morning,
12 everyone. It's an exciting morning, Day One
13 of our marathon, the first time in-person
14 in -- I guess two years we weren't in-person,
15 so we're going to try to remember all of the
16 rules of the road for these kinds of live
17 hearings.
18 I am joined today -- I'm sorry, I'm
19 Liz Krueger, I'm the chair of the Finance
20 Committee in the Senate. I am joined by Tim
21 Kennedy, our chair of our Transportation
22 Committee; Leroy Comrie, our chair of our
23 Corporations Committee; and various members
24 of all three committees, including, so far,
9
1 Senator Gonzalez, Senator Gounardes,
2 Senator Hinchey, Senator Hoylman-Sigal,
3 Senator Liu, Senator Persaud, Senator Ramos,
4 Senator -- I think -- did I miss any
5 Democratic Senators? I think I got everyone
6 who's here so far.
7 And I'm going to turn it over to the
8 ranker on Finance to introduce his members.
9 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you,
10 Chairwoman.
11 I believe at this point we have
12 Senator Oberacker with us from our side.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman Ra,
15 for your colleagues.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you, Chair
17 Weinstein.
18 Good morning, everybody. We are
19 joined on our side by Assemblyman Lemondes,
20 who is our ranker on the Corporations
21 Committee; Assemblymembers Smullen, Giglio,
22 Durso, Curran, Miller, Slater, and McGowan.
23 And our ranker on Transportation, Mr. Norris,
24 will be joining us a little later for the
10
1 Transportation commissioner.
2 Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 So now some ground rules. Just as a
5 refresher from the last time we had our
6 hearings, the time limits for witnesses will
7 be governmental witnesses have 10 minutes to
8 make their presentation; nongovernmental
9 witnesses will have three minutes. In terms
10 of time limits, questions and answers in
11 terms of legislators, the chair of the
12 committee relevant to each governmental
13 witness will get 10 minutes and a second
14 round of three minutes, if desired. Ranking
15 members of these committees will get
16 5 minutes each. And all other members of the
17 relevant committees will get 3 minutes each.
18 And I just remind witnesses both here
19 now and those who are watching for a future
20 hearing, that all written testimony has been
21 submitted to the legislators in advance, so
22 we ask witnesses to please not read your
23 written testimony to us. Instead, please
24 summarize.
11
1 And to legislators, please let myself,
2 Senator Krueger or the respective rankers
3 know if you wish to question each witness or
4 panel of witnesses. After the opening
5 remarks of each governmental witness or panel
6 of governmental witnesses has been concluded
7 and members indicate their desire to ask
8 questions, the list will be closed.
9 Everyone -- legislators, witnesses --
10 just keep an eye on the time clocks. We have
11 them here. And the clocks will count down.
12 Just to remember, again, that the time for
13 questions in terms of legislators is both for
14 the question and for the answer.
15 And we're trying to not have our
16 hearings run to midnight, as they have in the
17 past when we've had these hearings. So we
18 want to make sure we're able to ask questions
19 and get answers without having to cut off any
20 witnesses.
21 So with that, I'm delighted to call
22 our first witness, Janno Lieber, Metropolitan
23 Transportation Authority, and colleagues who
24 are here with him. So please, the time is
12
1 yours.
2 I should just mention that you're the
3 MTA chair and the CEO of MTA.
4 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Thank you. Thank
5 you.
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Perhaps you
7 want to just introduce your colleagues.
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Thank you, Madam
9 Chair. Thank you for having us today.
10 I'm joined by MTA CFO Kevin Willens,
11 by Deputy CFO Jai Patel. And you also may
12 hear from Mr. McCarthy, our director of
13 external affairs, and Mr. Schwartz, who runs
14 intergovernment relations.
15 I'm thrilled to be with all of you
16 again. We've worked together for some time.
17 But I think you know what we're here to talk
18 about today, which is the most pressing issue
19 that we have in front of us, the incredibly
20 challenging financial situation faced by the
21 MTA.
22 We have been raising the alarm on this
23 issue for over a year, so this is not news to
24 anybody in this room. But the reality is
13
1 MTA, our agency, is facing a prospective
2 $2 billion deficit in 2024. And that figure
3 grows to $3 billion by the end of the current
4 financial plan period, which takes us through
5 2026.
6 As I've said many times, we're in dire
7 need of new funding, a new funding model, to
8 preserve our vital transit system and the
9 regional economy it makes possible.
10 Thankfully, we have a Governor and a
11 Legislature that recognize the importance of
12 the MTA's financial situation. In her
13 Executive Budget address last week, Governor
14 Hochul proposed a bold but balanced plan to
15 ensure the financial stability of the MTA, as
16 she committed to doing in her State of the
17 State address a few weeks ago.
18 The Governor's plan keeps the MTA and
19 the New York metropolitan region, which
20 accounts for 70 percent of our statewide
21 economy -- keeps us moving forward with, as I
22 said, a balanced plan that combines
23 $400 million in savings from the MTA without
24 cutting service, realigning some outdated
14
1 financial arrangements we have with the City
2 of New York: Cost-sharing that has become
3 outdated and burdensome to the MTA. An
4 increase in the Payroll Mobility Tax, which
5 will apply only to 5 percent of business.
6 Only 5 percent of businesses will experience
7 that, the largest businesses. A near-term
8 one-time infusion of state General Funds to
9 deal with this year's deficit, and
10 longer-term security for the MTA financially
11 in the form of a big stake in the casino --
12 the future casino revenues.
13 I want to acknowledge the members of
14 the Legislature who have separately and
15 together come up with a range of different
16 ideas and proposals for the MTA in the last
17 few months, and which have also raised
18 awareness in their communities about the
19 existential crisis facing the MTA, which is
20 due directly to the persistence of remote
21 work post-COVID. That's why we are here.
22 We recognize your commitment to
23 frequent, safe, and reliable public transit,
24 and we're going to work with you to get a
15
1 budget, a final budget, that addresses the
2 situation that we're all so concerned about.
3 Listen. Everybody understands the
4 vital importance of public transit to the
5 New York metropolitan region. As I always
6 say -- and I'm a bit of a broken record on
7 this -- for New Yorkers, transit is like air
8 and water. We need it to survive. And, lo
9 and behold, COVID proved that exact point.
10 Remember? Everybody insisted during COVID
11 that the MTA keep running full service
12 because we needed to get essential workers to
13 hospitals, to pharmacies, to grocery stores,
14 to distribution centers, so our economy could
15 continue to function.
16 Even the brief late-night closure that
17 we put in place during the height of COVID to
18 facilitate cleaning, that was met with howls.
19 And when the city's recovery got underway,
20 everybody urged the MTA to provide full
21 service to power the region's revival.
22 People coming into the city, it's not
23 just about office workers, it's about the
24 middle-income folks and lower-income folks
16
1 who depend on those service jobs that the
2 office economy generates. And so mass
3 transit is needed not just for people going
4 to offices, but also to try to attract people
5 back to theater, to shopping, to restaurants,
6 to everything that makes it possible for
7 New Yorkers to survive and thrive.
8 And today transit is as essential as
9 it ever was. Here's the truth. This is --
10 you know, this is the absolute reality. In
11 working- and middle-class communities,
12 ridership is 70, 80, sometimes 90 percent. I
13 met with the Speaker. His home station at
14 the end of the line in the northern Bronx is
15 like 90 percent of pre-COVID. Those
16 New Yorkers are back to work five, six,
17 sometimes seven days a week, and they can't
18 afford a $50 Uber. They deserve the same
19 frequent, reliable, safe service that they've
20 come to depend on, even if more affluent
21 New Yorkers, mostly in white-collar jobs, are
22 not using mass transit as frequently.
23 It doesn't make sense that low-income
24 folks should see service slashed because
17
1 others can work from home or dial it in from
2 East Hampton or Aspen. So service has to be
3 frequent, and it has to be safe. Again, this
4 is an area we've gotten incredible support
5 for from Governor Hochul and from
6 Mayor Adams. Their Cops, Cameras and Care
7 initiative announced back in late October
8 really kicked in our multiyear effort on
9 public safety, kicked it into overdrive. The
10 NYPD surged their numbers into the subways
11 with 1200 more officers on platforms and on
12 trains.
13 I -- when I see folks, and it's a lot,
14 I thank them. Because what I say to them
15 is -- you know, and it's not always an
16 exciting job to stand on a subway platform
17 and to patrol up and down a subway mezzanine.
18 And I say to them "Thank you." Because crime
19 numbers are down double digits since October,
20 and our riders are telling us that they're
21 thrilled. The riders are saying that they
22 feel much safer. This is the surveys that we
23 do -- we do a ton of it -- show riders are
24 feeling significantly safer month after
18
1 month, and they're letting us know -- for the
2 first time, more than 40 percent of them
3 think that there's the right number of cops
4 in the system. Actually, a lot of them want
5 more. So it is a huge improvement both to
6 the facts of public safety and to the
7 appearance as well.
8 When compared to the same span of
9 three months -- since, you know, November,
10 December and January -- we're currently at
11 the second-lowest overall crime level since
12 1995. And for the month of January, crime
13 was down 30 percent versus last year,
14 reversing what had been a disturbing trend.
15 Thirty percent down, a big turnaround.
16 As I said, customers are feeling the
17 difference. We want our customers to keep
18 coming back, so we're doing everything we can
19 to make transit easy, safe, convenient. Fare
20 promotions. Finishing major capital
21 projects. We have never, never, never done
22 anything like the pace of accessibility
23 improvements. We've got 70 separate ADA
24 projects either in contract or in
19
1 construction or, you know, 20 of them have
2 been completed since the onset of COVID.
3 Never before at that pace.
4 But I have to say, again, everything
5 is a risk if we don't achieve fiscal
6 stability. The MTA is ready to work with all
7 stakeholders -- Albany, all of you,
8 Washington, City Hall, advocates, budgeteers,
9 comptrollers, and more. Tom DiNapoli has
10 been very explicit on the need to solve this
11 problem and the urgency of solving this
12 problem. And we're ready to do our part
13 with, as I said, plans for cutting
14 400 million from the MTA's operating budget
15 without cutting service.
16 There's a series of strategic moves
17 that we've undertaken. We've been at this,
18 planning this, since the beginning of the
19 year. It's not a latter-day activity.
20 Previous MTA fiscal crises have been solved
21 in large part by service cuts. It has to be
22 different this time. We have to rethink the
23 way mass transit is funded. Pre-pandemic,
24 the MTA was achieving farebox recovery
20
1 ratios -- that's the portion of our operating
2 budget that's funded by revenues from rider
3 fares -- we were over 50 percent while other
4 transit systems nationwide were in the 25 to
5 35 percent range. We cannot continue to rely
6 solely on the farebox as the principal driver
7 of the MTA's operating budget.
8 Now, we have made significant progress
9 in recent years. We have -- as I said, we
10 have the on-time performance in January --
11 it's the highest in 10 years. Metro-North,
12 the two commuter railroads, out of sight: 97
13 and 96 percent. We're delivering the major
14 projects you've all heard about: Third
15 Track, on time, $100 million under budget.
16 We dragged that Grand Central Madison project
17 over the finish line. I inherited this five
18 years ago, it was a mess. We tore it apart,
19 put it back together again, and we got it
20 done.
21 We've -- as I said, expanding subway
22 accessibility faster than ever. We're
23 redesigning the bus system. Anybody have the
24 guts to redesign the bus system in New York,
21
1 kind of a high-profile, controversial issue?
2 We're doing it. Be it -- it's the first time
3 in 100 years that anyone's really looked at
4 where people are trying to get and where --
5 you know, what are their natural origin
6 destinations and how do you redesign the
7 system so you can maximize the speed of bus
8 travel. We're taking on the hard issues.
9 And most important -- well, I talked
10 about on-time performance. But the bottom
11 line is if we can't balance the budget, we
12 can kiss those gains goodbye. In that case,
13 the decision-making would revert to the MTA
14 Board, which is statutorily obligated to
15 balance the budget and has only three tools:
16 Layoffs, service cuts, and massive fare
17 hikes. The fourth doomsday lever we don't
18 want to pull is shifting funds from the
19 $55 billion historic capital plan.
20 Remember 2017, the "Summer of Hell."
21 That came after the fiscal crisis in the late
22 aughts and early 2010s when there was
23 dramatic cuts in basic state-of-good-repair
24 capital work. I'm not going to do that. As
22
1 the agency's CEO and chair, I'm determined,
2 with your help, to keep moving forward, to
3 keep service improving, to keep safety
4 improving, to keep getting accessibility and
5 all the other projects that we're delivering
6 for New Yorkers.
7 Thank you, Madam Chair.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
9 Before we go to questions, just a
10 number of members have joined us. I'd like
11 to acknowledge Assemblymembers Gallagher,
12 Seawright, Simone, Fall, Mamdani and Alvarez.
13 I believe I've gotten all of the new
14 Assemblymembers. And now --
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Just quickly --
16 I'm sorry -- are any new Senators here?
17 Raise your hand in case I didn't call on you
18 before.
19 Oh, hello, Senator Mayer. Do you want
20 to come sit back here?
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: And Assemblyman
22 Palmesano also has joined us.
23 And now for our first questioner,
24 chair of our Corporations Committee,
23
1 Assemblyman Zebrowski.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI: Good morning.
3 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Good morning.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI: I appreciate
5 you being here and appreciate the
6 conversations we've already had, and
7 certainly 10 minutes today won't suffice for
8 them. Certainly in my capacity as chair I
9 pledge to work with you.
10 And I won't get through 10 minutes of
11 questions, but we will follow this up after
12 this hearing. So thanks for the presentation
13 today.
14 I guess I'll start off with the
15 planned fare increases and toll hikes. You
16 know, it was 5.5 percent, so higher than I
17 think the every other year projected
18 4 percent. So now that we know what the
19 Governor is proposing in revenue-raisers, do
20 you think that those estimates would remain
21 at 5.5 percent? Do you think there's room to
22 reduce those? What's the -- what is the
23 current thinking of the agency after seeing
24 the budget presentation?
24
1 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Thank you for the
2 questions. Affordability is one of our
3 principal goals. I've talked about it again
4 and again. We are -- nothing in New York is
5 cheap, but one thing that makes New York more
6 affordable, the region, is transit. Ten
7 thousand dollars a year, on average, to own a
8 car, 1500 to ride the subway, 2000 to 2500 if
9 you're a commuter rail passenger.
10 So it contributes to affordability,
11 and we want to keep it that way. We're much
12 cheaper than London and all the major cities
13 in Europe. And the 5 percent fare increase
14 proposal that you see included in the
15 Governor's budget plan, it would, in
16 combination with the other elements -- and
17 you know it's a balanced plan, we keep
18 talking about that -- would allow us to
19 achieve fiscal stability.
20 That -- basically what you're doing is
21 restoring the very gradual fare increase that
22 we skipped. We haven't increased the fare
23 since 2019. We haven't increased the base
24 fare since 2015. So the 5.5 percent would
25
1 allow us to catch up with those 2 percent per
2 year increases we had for about 10 years,
3 which were abandoned -- for understandable
4 reasons -- during COVID.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI: So I know that
6 you've projected what may have to happen,
7 depending upon what does or does not
8 eventually get passed in the State Budget.
9 But sort of broadly, and you talked about
10 them a little bit in your testimony, if
11 nothing was passed in the State Budget to
12 give us a broad sense of what we'd have to
13 do -- you talked maybe having to take from
14 the capital plan, service reductions and
15 those types of things. Without, you know,
16 giving the full doomsday scenario, what would
17 have to happen?
18 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Listen, we're --
19 I'm not in the doomsday business, because
20 this is exactly why we cannot even
21 contemplate it. You're talking about massive
22 fare increases. I think the Comptroller's
23 folks estimated that to get at the size of
24 the deficit we're talking about something
26
1 between, you know, 75 cents and a dollar on
2 the base fare. You'd have dramatic service
3 cuts. At one point we had to plan for a
4 40-plus percent service cut during COVID
5 because we didn't know whether the federal
6 government was going to come through. It
7 might be something of that scale.
8 So people would be waiting for
9 commuter rail trains, they'd -- you know,
10 that now are, say, 20 minutes apart, for
11 probably maybe as much as double that time.
12 Similar kinds of increases in waits and
13 delays on the subway. And we would be
14 accelerating -- you know, it's a downward
15 spiral. Because when you provide poor
16 service, people ain't going to come, and then
17 the financial hole gets deeper.
18 So it's a pretty scary situation. We
19 can run all the different versions you want,
20 but they're all ugly, ugly, ugly, and killers
21 for the regional economy. If nobody comes
22 back to the city, if people don't go to their
23 jobs, honestly, in the suburbs, which are
24 getting reverse commuting -- remember, so
27
1 many of those jobs in the suburbs depend on
2 people coming out, whether it's Metro-North
3 from the Bronx or now, for the first time,
4 Long Island Rail Road is going to operate
5 reverse commuting. So this is our future,
6 and we'd be throwing it away.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI: So I know that
8 ridership has bounced back in certain areas,
9 certain stops better than others. It
10 certainly remains below pre-pandemic levels.
11 Have you been able to align service to deal
12 with these ridership levels? When you talk
13 about the 400 million in efficiencies, is
14 that part of it, looking at the new ridership
15 levels and you're trying to project out into
16 the future?
17 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I think the
18 consensus is that there's a tipping point
19 where you start to cut service and you're
20 losing riders. So as I said, it's a downward
21 spiral financially, as well as in terms of
22 the benefits to the regional economy.
23 So we've not really taken -- we've
24 been trying to maintain service in support of
28
1 people coming back to work, getting back to
2 their normal lives, getting back to going to
3 medical appointments, to school, all those
4 things that the regional economy does. We
5 have not dramatically cut service. We have
6 made -- you know, we've tinkered at the
7 margins in a very small way, but it's really
8 a -- I think a service pattern consistent in
9 most ways with our pre-COVID levels.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI: So suffice it
11 to say that the service will remain the same
12 projecting a return of the ridership.
13 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Very much so. And
14 in fact, let's just be honest, the
15 Long Island Rail Road is on the verge of
16 experiencing a massive increase in service
17 due to the completion of those major
18 projects. East Side Access and now Grand
19 Central Madison and Third Track have enabled
20 us to increase it by 40 percent. Forty
21 percent more Long Island Rail Road service, a
22 lot of that reverse commuting. So those Long
23 Island businesses can get -- can recruit from
24 a huge, much larger regional footprint than
29
1 was possible in the past.
2 That is a significant uptick in
3 service and in cost. But you can't just
4 mothball those projects and throw them away;
5 that costs money too.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI: Speaking of
7 projects, what level of capital plan
8 commitments do you anticipate for this fiscal
9 year in 2023, and have you had to make any
10 changes, you know, post-pandemic, looking at
11 changes to that capital plan?
12 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Thank you for the
13 question. We've -- you know, it's a
14 $55 billion capital plan. And last year,
15 which was the first normal year in terms of
16 the availability of funds and our ability to
17 actually award contracts and do these complex
18 procurements, we did $11 billion, which is
19 about -- if you push it out over a five-year
20 period, would be consistent with the size of
21 the capital plan.
22 We think we're going to do even more
23 this year and next year, the final two years
24 of the capital plan. So we lost some time to
30
1 COVID, we lost a year and a half to two years
2 to COVID when we didn't know if we were going
3 to have to use capital money just to keep the
4 lights on. But I'd say we are on track. And
5 I'm excited because we are moving forward at
6 the pace that was originally intended.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI: Let's turn to
8 the Penn Station redesign. Can you give us a
9 status of MTA's role and also a status of the
10 project to expand it south and add additional
11 track capacity?
12 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Okay. So -- and
13 let me be a little parochial with you. One
14 thing that -- when people talk about Penn
15 Station, they know the reason I'm passionate
16 and the Governor's passionate about fixing
17 existing Penn is that's where the New Yorkers
18 go. The Gateway project, incredibly
19 important. But it's principally going to be
20 used by New Jersey Transit and Amtrak
21 customers. What the Governor said was, Let's
22 fix existing Penn, where the Long Island
23 railroad customers go and the subway
24 passengers go now. Let's do that as soon as
31
1 possible. It's especially important because
2 we will have Metro-North customers. Thanks
3 to that Penn Access project in the Bronx,
4 Metro-North customers will start coming in in
5 just a few short years. So we've got to get
6 it going. That is her priority.
7 But I will say this to you about the
8 West of Hudson folks. Two things I've been
9 fighting for as this whole Penn Station/
10 Gateway project unfolds: One, make sure they
11 keep slots for what we hope will be direct
12 service from Rockland and Orange through the
13 Pascack Valley Line and the Port Jervis Line.
14 You know, it's in the future, but we've got
15 to make sure that they keep room for those
16 trains. And two, that we are making room for
17 the Hudson Line trains which should be able
18 to come straight down the West Side instead
19 of having to go detour and come down the
20 middle of the East Side.
21 So those are two things that I know
22 that you and I are passionate about that have
23 been very front of mind as we push to have a
24 very -- you know, Gateway/Penn Station
32
1 project that benefits New York as much as our
2 partners in New Jersey and Amtrak.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI: I appreciate
4 that, and you and I have had conversations.
5 And certainly for West of Hudson commuters,
6 which are in the MTA district, ensuring that
7 there's that capacity and that we continue to
8 move down the road towards a fully understood
9 project with Gateway and the additional
10 tracks is important to those.
11 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: If I might just
12 add, you and I have talked about it and I
13 just don't want it to be missed. We need to
14 do some things to make sure that West of
15 Hudson folks can get to the very substantial
16 and timely service on the East Side of
17 Hudson; basically, the Hudson Line. And you
18 and I have agreed that that's something we
19 should work on.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI: Yeah. I
21 appreciate that. I only got about a minute
22 left, but that was where I was going to go.
23 Do you believe that there's additional
24 things that we could do to get folks from
33
1 that side of the river over to access
2 Metro-North, you know, use mass transit more?
3 Certainly as we try to make it more
4 accessible and available and as, you know,
5 things like congestion pricing go in, we need
6 to give those commuters a better ability to
7 get there.
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: You're absolutely
9 right. I don't want to put it all on like
10 waiting for the Bergen Loop to happen or, you
11 know, the Penn Station expansion to happen.
12 Let's make it possible for people to go to
13 Tarrytown or some of the other stations on
14 the east of Hudson side, make sure they can
15 get parking if they need that, if they take a
16 bus, if they take a ferry, that it's easy and
17 fast and reliable. I think it's something we
18 ought to prioritize in the near term.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI: Thank you so
20 much for that. Appreciate that.
21 Thank you, Madam Chair.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
23 Now to the Senate.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Our
34
1 first questioner will be our chair of
2 Corporations and Authorities, Leroy Comrie.
3 SENATOR COMRIE: Good morning, Chair
4 Lieber. Good morning. Thank you, Chair
5 Krueger and everyone else.
6 Good morning, Chair Lieber. Let me
7 start right away. Let's talk about West of
8 Hudson. What exactly is being done to ensure
9 that the capital project for West of
10 Hudson -- what's the updated status of the
11 capital project for the new {inaudible}
12 facilities that's supposed to be happening?
13 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: The new what
14 facilities?
15 SENATOR COMRIE: The new -- the
16 expansion of the repair and shed facilities,
17 I believe it was, that were ...
18 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: The issue is, as I
19 understand it, is we have to work with
20 New Jersey -- New Jersey Transit operates
21 that service, so there are two things that
22 we're talking about, passing sidings so that
23 we could actually have more service --
24 SENATOR COMRIE: Am I the only one
35
1 having problems hearing, or -- maybe.
2 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Should I speak more
3 into the mic? Is that better?
4 SENATOR COMRIE: Yeah, that's better.
5 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Okay. So we're
6 working with NJT. You know, there's 100
7 million in the current capital plan for
8 passing sidings. And we're also having
9 discussion about if there's a possibility of
10 having a mid-point yard that could allow us
11 to have more capacity, especially during the
12 peak.
13 So those conversations, which are with
14 NJT, are unfolding. You know, they run the
15 service, they get to decide what type of
16 equipment goes on the system, and those are
17 issues that we are pushing forward with NJT.
18 I'm happy to get more data for you on the
19 specifics of that.
20 SENATOR COMRIE: Okay. I have a bill,
21 Senate Bill 2872, which would exempt the MTA
22 from bond issuance charges. This legislation
23 would waive the bond issuance charge for the
24 MTA with respect to bonds, notes and other
36
1 obligations, the intent being to reduce the
2 cost of doing business for the MTA and to
3 reinvest the savings into improving service
4 and enabling the reduction of the need for
5 future fare increases.
6 As of 2019, the MTA carried
7 approximately 48.3 billion in outstanding
8 debt. What is the current amount of debt?
9 And how would the bond issuance exemption
10 save -- how much would the bond issuance
11 exception save the authority annually?
12 MTA CFO WILLENS: Thank you. The bond
13 issuance charge --
14 SENATOR COMRIE: Can you identify
15 yourself for the record, please?
16 MTA CFO WILLENS: Sure. It's Kevin
17 Willens, the CFO.
18 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you.
19 MTA CFO WILLENS: So the bond issuance
20 charge is a charge that is put on new bond
21 issues, not existing debt. So the -- not
22 having to pay that issuance charge to the
23 state would allow us to, for every capital
24 dollar we raised, to have less debt service,
37
1 because we also wouldn't have to be issuing
2 debt to pay for that expense.
3 That charge does get waived in many
4 instances by the budget director, but it
5 makes a lot of sense for the MTA, which is
6 doing projects on behalf of the state and the
7 city, not to -- not to pay that issuance
8 charge. It would make our capital program
9 cheaper by that amount.
10 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: And I just would
11 add -- thank you, Kevin -- right now the debt
12 restructuring that Kevin has set in motion as
13 part of the effort to balance the MTA's
14 operating budget has brought the level of --
15 the impact of debt service, our borrowing
16 costs on the operating budget, down to its
17 lowest level in quite some time.
18 Kevin, would you explain that, please?
19 SENATOR COMRIE: And how would that
20 debt restructuring be detailed, so -- because
21 you -- that was my next question. How are
22 you getting to this 400 million in savings
23 without service cuts?
24 MTA CFO WILLENS: To first answer the
38
1 question on the debt, we are -- you know, if
2 this package goes through -- and part of what
3 we're doing is using the resources that we
4 have that were enabled from, you know, part
5 of the COVID relief, we're using it to bring
6 down our debt service costs down to no more
7 than 15 percent of our total budget. Which
8 is down considerably from where it's been
9 over the last few years. It has been
10 growing.
11 So part of the -- part of the package
12 is by -- by keeping the debt costs down and
13 not having to have those consumed -- or not
14 having farebox revenue and other taxes
15 consumed by debt service makes us -- well, it
16 makes it easier for us to balance the budget.
17 So that's part of the strategy of how
18 we shrunk what was a $2.6 billion deficit
19 down to the billion, billion-two that this
20 package then addresses.
21 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: And you asked the
22 right question, Senator, which is the debt
23 restructuring, that's before the MTA does --
24 finds $400 million in efficiencies. So
39
1 Kevin's organized that debt restructuring
2 that brought our borrowing costs down. But
3 in addition to that, the MTA is going to cut
4 $400 million from our budget a couple of
5 different ways.
6 We're using technology to be more
7 efficient in when we bring in equipment for
8 service. Right now we just kind of wait for
9 the check-engine light to go on, or check
10 things on a routine annual or semiannual or
11 two-year basis. Now we're going to use data
12 about when systems and buses and railcars
13 actually wear out or fail, to more
14 efficiently do those kinds of checks and
15 inspections and maintenance cycles. That's
16 one thing.
17 And the other is trying to bring back
18 availability. We lost 10 days -- we had an
19 average worker -- average worker at the MTA,
20 and there are 60,000 of them, showed up for
21 205 days before COVID. We're down to
22 195 days a year. And a lot of that is people
23 out on sick leave or worker's comp or other
24 things that are keeping them from coming
40
1 back.
2 And we're going to -- there's a
3 variety of different strategies that are
4 being set in motion to try to help them get
5 the right medical and other support so they
6 can come back to work earlier. Because
7 10 days, that's worth close to $200 million a
8 year to the budget.
9 SENATOR COMRIE: Okay. But -- so can
10 you talk about how you're going to get to the
11 other 400 million in efficiencies? And also
12 addressing the two articles that came out
13 about 400 million in waste that the MTA does
14 every year. And can you address how you're
15 going to balance that? Because you talked
16 about maintenance, but how about in personnel
17 and administrative inefficiencies? Can you
18 gives us any idea on how you're going to
19 reduce those?
20 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah. Those things
21 are a slightly -- a little overlapping. I
22 just talked about how we're using data and
23 technology to identify inefficiencies. Those
24 are in some cases areas that I think were
41
1 talked about -- for example, maintenance of
2 equipment or maintenance of facilities.
3 Those were talked about in that series of
4 New York Post articles I think you're
5 referring to. So we are attacking that.
6 But what the article made clear is
7 that there are some areas where
8 inefficiencies may be partly the result of,
9 you know, antiquated collective bargaining
10 arrangements, work rules that, you know, came
11 from another era. So we're going to raise
12 those in discussion with our labor partners,
13 but we can't just overturn them overnight if
14 it's a collective-bargaining-based work rule.
15 But outside of collective bargaining,
16 we are looking for efficiencies, as I said,
17 through availability and through technology
18 and data analysis of our maintenance and
19 operations patterns.
20 SENATOR COMRIE: Okay. So just to --
21 and how are these -- the issue of getting
22 public confidence back into ridership, and in
23 maintenance of the system and also the
24 cleanliness of the system. Can you give us
42
1 an update on your level of cleanliness in the
2 system so that people can feel safe, in the
3 ridership, in taking the trains during the
4 day?
5 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah. Well, I
6 think ridership confidence, our evidence is
7 it has moved in a very positive direction
8 because of on-time performance: Subways,
9 best in 10 years. Commuter rail, best ever,
10 except for the very height of COVID when no
11 one was riding.
12 So performance and reliability, very
13 high. Safety, up, up, up, resulting in
14 dramatic improvements to rider confidence
15 in -- that we test in constant surveys.
16 Cleanliness. Good point. We have
17 transitioned away from -- during COVID,
18 because of the -- what we understood, rightly
19 or wrongly, about transmittal, there was a
20 whole COVID cleaning program that was staffed
21 mostly by outside contractors. That has been
22 ditched, and we are hiring up all the
23 cleaners. And they're being held to, you
24 know, obviously an appropriate standard of
43
1 cleaning. So we think we're moving towards a
2 good cleaning regimen. The cars are still --
3 SENATOR COMRIE: I've got 45 seconds
4 left, and I have two questions, so --
5 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Sure, sure.
6 SENATOR COMRIE: Two quick questions.
7 There's been a proposal sent by some
8 of my colleagues to try to eliminate bus
9 costs altogether. Have you assessed that,
10 and have you come up with a response to it?
11 And also, with the fact that the
12 New Jersey governor and other New Jersey
13 elected officials are hell bent against
14 congestion pricing, do you have
15 an alternative plan? Or what is your plan to
16 address that issue?
17 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Well, the -- first
18 of all, congestion pricing was adopted by the
19 Legislature of the State of New York in 2019.
20 It's the law of the state.
21 I'm the implementer, so I get to
22 receive the comments and disapproval from
23 some people, but also positive feedback from
24 a lot of others. We had people actually
44
1 rallying on the New Jersey side of the
2 George Washington Bridge in support of
3 congestion pricing. So, you know, not to --
4 I don't think you should be misapprehended
5 that everybody in New Jersey thinks it's
6 great to pump more cars --
7 SENATOR COMRIE: I didn't say
8 everybody, I said the governor.
9 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah, okay. All
10 right.
11 SENATOR COMRIE: And the bus question,
12 of free --
13 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Listen, I love --
14 affordability, as I said before, is a huge
15 priority for us. I don't know if I'm ready
16 to do an experiment of that scale with -- on
17 New York. People haven't really, you know,
18 thought about unintended consequences.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry, I have
20 to be rude and be mean and cut you off.
21 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I would prefer
22 targeted affordability, Fair Fares Program
23 and otherwise, targeting affordability to
24 people who need the bus.
45
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Time.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Time. Thank you.
3 Sorry, Leroy.
4 I want to just introduce
5 Senator Fernandez, who joined us, and also
6 Senator Mattera, who joined us.
7 Assembly.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We've been
9 joined by Assemblywoman Darling, Assemblyman
10 Kim, Assemblywoman Jessica Gonzalez-Rojas,
11 Assemblyman Cunningham, Assemblyman McGowan,
12 and Assemblyman Bores. Now --
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And
14 Senator Skoufis. Sorry.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: No problem.
16 Next we go to the ranker on
17 Corporations, Assemblyman Lemondes.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN LEMONDES: Thank you very
19 much. I really appreciate it.
20 And Chairman, thank you for your
21 testimony.
22 My question goes to safety. I want to
23 peel the onion back on that a little further,
24 because I'm a firm believer that if we're not
46
1 safe, we don't have anything.
2 So are you declaring that the system
3 is safe, safer than it's ever been, and that
4 there's no further safety improvements that
5 need to be acted upon, enhanced, or brought
6 into existence?
7 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: No. No to all
8 those questions. I'm telling you the
9 system -- that we've made tremendous progress
10 on safety in just three short months. We've
11 reversed, you know, a trend that was
12 concerning. And we are now -- the feedback
13 we're getting from our customers is that they
14 are much happier with the safety situation on
15 the subway, so I am thrilled about that. But
16 we're going to keep going. We're not going
17 to take our foot off the gas.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN LEMONDES: That's good to
19 hear, and I appreciate that.
20 Is it possible that the number of
21 crimes could be leading to metrics that
22 aren't telling the whole story if the police
23 can't arrest and apprehend people for crimes
24 that they used to be able to? Is it possible
47
1 that the metrics are skewed?
2 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I would shy away
3 from hypotheticals. Here's what I can tell
4 you, is every day I see all of the crimes
5 that are committed. And they're reported not
6 exclusively by the police, they're reported
7 by our transit personnel. So the idea that
8 somehow, you know, there are law enforcement
9 officials who are closing their eyes or
10 turning their heads doesn't -- that doesn't
11 stand up to how data is collected.
12 Yesterday there was one crime, one
13 felony crime in the New York City Transit
14 system.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN LEMONDES: Perfect. Thank
16 you very much. I appreciate your testimony.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: To the Senate.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
19 Our next questioner is Senator Tim
20 Kennedy, the chair of Transportation.
21 SENATOR KENNEDY: Good morning,
22 Chairman.
23 First of all, thank you to the chairs
24 of Finance for their leadership here today.
48
1 Chairman Lieber and your team, thank you for
2 your continued leadership.
3 I want to just follow up on some of
4 the questions that have already been asked
5 about the budget and balancing the budget. I
6 want to flip around the question from
7 Assemblyman Zebrowski where he asked about
8 the funding, if it were not to be contained
9 within this budget, what that would do to the
10 fare increase.
11 What I'd like to know is, number one,
12 if in fact everything is included that has
13 been proposed in this budget, when will we be
14 able to see a fully balanced MTA budget in
15 the outyears? And secondly, what sort of
16 funding would be necessary to prevent a fare
17 increase of any kind?
18 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Okay. So, number
19 one, the Governor's budget plan balances the
20 budget starting in our calendar fiscal 2023.
21 MTA is on a calendar fiscal year. So it
22 balances the budget for this year, the
23 current one that we're already in. It also
24 balances it for the remaining years of our
49
1 financial plan, which is until 2026.
2 But it goes further, because it thinks
3 out to 2028-2029 and uses the potential
4 casino revenues to give security to the MTA's
5 budget even in that time frame.
6 SENATOR KENNEDY: And as far as a fare
7 increase goes?
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Listen, you know, I
9 think it was Comptroller DiNapoli who took a
10 look at what scale of fare increase would be
11 required to balance the budget, in
12 combination with service cuts, and I think he
13 said it was between 75 cents and a dollar to
14 the base fare. I mean, we're talking about
15 an unheard-of, massive fare increase.
16 So, you know, the Governor's proposal
17 is let's resume these small incremental fare
18 increases, which were a very successful
19 feature of our financial recovery from the
20 2008-2010 financial crisis. That's what you
21 see reflected in her proposal.
22 SENATOR KENNEDY: No, understood. But
23 for those who are opposed to any fare
24 increase of any kind, in order to fill that
50
1 gap, what would be the amount of funding you
2 would need to fill that gap?
3 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: It's about
4 $350 million a year.
5 SENATOR KENNEDY: Another $350 million
6 on a yearly basis.
7 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Annual basis. It
8 would go up a little bit, but in the current
9 year, in 2024, it would be 350.
10 SENATOR KENNEDY: Okay. And just
11 diving a little bit deeper into these numbers
12 regarding the budget that we are faced with
13 here, and the decisions that we are faced
14 with, in the additional money that's been
15 proposed, what impact would that have on
16 service times? Would there be an improvement
17 in service times? Would it be status quo?
18 There's a lot of conversations about
19 increasing the efficiencies.
20 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: You know, I'm
21 always thrilled to say I will never -- I'm
22 the chair of the MTA. I'm never going to
23 argue against more service.
24 The Governor's proposal supports the
51
1 existing level of service on buses and
2 subways and commuter rails, which I think is
3 pretty solid. The performance says it's
4 solid, and the Long Island Rail Road is
5 getting a hell of a lot more, they're getting
6 40 percent more service in that plan because
7 of those big megaprojects. So that's what
8 the plan is.
9 SENATOR KENNEDY: There's discussion
10 publicly about six-minute service throughout
11 all the subsidiary elements of the MTA. What
12 sort of funding would be necessary to make
13 that happen?
14 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Listen, I mean,
15 again, I'm always in support of more service.
16 I'm not certain that six-minute service could
17 be achieved at the price points that some
18 people have been talking about, because it
19 requires -- as a practical matter,
20 six-minute -- right now we have 77 percent
21 six-minute service in the peak on subways. I
22 mean, we're talking about most of our riders,
23 when they're going to and from work or
24 traveling in the morning to school, to work
52
1 or whatever, are getting six-minute service.
2 But when people talk about six-minute
3 service, they're sometimes forgetting we
4 would require -- we wouldn't be able to do
5 work if we take away the middle of the night.
6 We would need a ton more subway cars, and
7 more buses as well. And frankly, more buses
8 aren't the answer for better service.
9 Because the problem with buses is not the
10 frequency, it's that you can't move a bus
11 because of congestion in New York and because
12 of -- the bus lanes are blocked. Those are
13 the issues.
14 So better service on buses is very
15 achievable with enforcement cameras and bus
16 lanes and more attention to the things that
17 block buses. And six-minute service is hard
18 to accomplish at the price points that have
19 been talked about.
20 SENATOR KENNEDY: Thank you.
21 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I'm talking about
22 24-hour-a-day six-minute service, which
23 sometimes people talk about.
24 SENATOR KENNEDY: Thank you.
53
1 You know, a major priority of our
2 conference has been focusing on accessibility
3 at the various stops throughout the MTA, as
4 well as the service provided in general.
5 There's a $500 million cost associated for
6 the City of New York for paratransit services
7 as part of the overall plan.
8 Can you talk about that? And has
9 New York City agreed to take on that
10 $500 million cost at this moment?
11 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Listen, when the
12 ADA was passed, a lot of things happened.
13 One is the MTA was given responsibility for
14 paratransit, as the city handed over the
15 then-bankrupt subway system to the MTA. Now,
16 we've all -- this is a partnership
17 arrangement; everybody has contributed.
18 But we are spending literally billions
19 on subway accessibility. We have so many
20 more stations under construction actually
21 being delivered than ever before. We had
22 more stations delivered during COVID --
23 elevators accessible for people with
24 disabilities and family with strollers and
54
1 seniors, it's a great thing -- more during
2 COVID than had been done in the seven years
3 before. We now have, as I said, close to a
4 hundred stations. So our investment in
5 accessibility, off the charts.
6 On the flip side, paratransit is an
7 operation that we have made much, much
8 better, but it is about half-funded by the
9 MTA. It's principally a system that now uses
10 for-hire vehicles. So it's black cars -- not
11 Ubers, but black cars in the neighborhoods
12 and so on. That's an industry that's
13 regulated by the city.
14 This is an area of specialized
15 transportation that really is a city -- and
16 in both Westchester and Long Island, this is
17 a service that is funded by the county, by
18 the localities. So we're saying of all the
19 things that we share -- the Governor has
20 proposed to give the city a lot of money in
21 other ways -- this is one where we think the
22 city ought to be paying the whole tab rather
23 than just half. That's the proposal.
24 SENATOR KENNEDY: Thank you.
55
1 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: The five -- yeah,
2 the 500 million you're talking about includes
3 not just the paratransit but also the bus
4 passes and some other elements as well --
5 SENATOR KENNEDY: That's funding the
6 city would assume.
7 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yes, sir.
8 SENATOR KENNEDY: Okay. And have they
9 agreed to that assumption?
10 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: No. As of this
11 morning, even, the Mayor went on TV and
12 expressed disagreement. That's okay, because
13 this -- you know, he was thrilled, I know,
14 with the Governor's proposal, broadly
15 speaking, and a discussion has to unfold.
16 The partnership between the Mayor and the
17 Governor is fantastic, unprecedented, as
18 evidenced by the success of the subway safety
19 initiative. So it will get -- I hope and
20 expect it will get worked out. It's still on
21 the table.
22 SENATOR KENNEDY: Yeah. And if not,
23 we have a $500 million gap to fill.
24 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yes, sir.
56
1 SENATOR KENNEDY: Okay. So let me
2 talk -- because you mentioned safety on the
3 subways and throughout the service area of
4 the MTA. I want to commend you and the MTA
5 for making safety a priority. I'm pleased to
6 hear that the trend is positive, moving in a
7 positive direction.
8 There's $150 million fund proposed in
9 the budget for MTA safety personnel. Can you
10 talk about what that funding is for
11 specifically? And will it be used in the
12 subways and commuter lines as well?
13 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: So the safety
14 profile on the commuter lines is very strong.
15 We have a new police chief who's been doing a
16 heck of a good job. We have put a ton --
17 redeployed a lot of the officers on the
18 commuter rails onto the trains. So again,
19 there are very, very, very few crimes on the
20 trains in the commuter rail system. But in
21 addition to that, we want people to see the
22 cops. And it also helps to defray some of
23 these like tensions that break out between
24 conductors and so on, sometimes over fare
57
1 issues.
2 We're -- you know, what we are
3 proposing to do with that amount of money you
4 see is technology. We've got to get on top
5 of the issue of people getting on the tracks.
6 It's not just a human tragedy, but it's also
7 delaying service. We have great service, but
8 one of the sources of delay is people getting
9 on the tracks -- it actually happened today
10 on the Metro-North -- and harming themselves
11 or otherwise.
12 So that would allow us to more quickly
13 deploy camera technology to see people at a
14 great distance, to do more intrusion
15 detection technology. We also want to put an
16 unarmed -- more unarmed personnel -- you
17 know, some are a revenue enforcement
18 function, but also just generally a law
19 enforcement function -- on the buses.
20 The buses, you know, have historically
21 not had issues, but they have had some
22 recently. And we're seeing more the kind of
23 disorder that sometimes you see on the subway
24 system break out on buses. We would like to
58
1 have more of our so-called Eagle Teams,
2 unarmed but uniformed folks, on the buses,
3 and that's what that would pay for, in
4 addition to the technology.
5 SENATOR KENNEDY: Thank you. I'll
6 have more questions in the second round.
7 Thank you.
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Thank you.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
11 Assemblywoman Simon for three minutes.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Good morning. I
13 had to move. Thank you.
14 So let me just say thank you very much
15 for your testimony and for the progress the
16 MTA has made. I am one of those people who
17 took the subway all the time through the
18 pandemic, and I find the subways
19 overwhelmingly safe. And safer when more
20 people use them, so we want to encourage
21 that.
22 So I have a couple of questions for
23 you, two basic questions. One is you've
24 spoken on a number of occasions -- you talked
59
1 about it today -- about how the MTA is like a
2 public good. And, you know, like fire or
3 firefighting or trash pickup. So how is it
4 that your proposal going forward retains a
5 fare hike? That's one question.
6 And then the other, sort of a little
7 more locally, I know you're familiar with my
8 district, which has had dramatic population
9 growth and usage in certain stations. Two
10 cases in point, York Street, which is really
11 dangerous, very expensive, and Smith and
12 Ninth, which is the tallest in the system and
13 has no elevator because the MTA wouldn't do
14 that a few years ago.
15 So what can you do to help us advance
16 additional funding through the Bipartisan
17 Infrastructure Act to get those stations in
18 particular? Because once upon a time nobody
19 lived there; now tons of people live there.
20 Thank you.
21 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I know both those
22 stations really well. And, listen, the whole
23 prioritization of which stations get the ADA
24 elevators is a decision we make in tandem
60
1 with the disability community and with data.
2 So rather than just responding to
3 you -- because I don't know where Smith and
4 ninth falls on that schedule, let me just --
5 let's just -- let's get back to you and, you
6 know, make sure that at least it's made
7 clear.
8 The York Street thing is a pain in the
9 neck. You have a station that
10 unfortunately -- and you're absolutely right,
11 there's a lot of ridership and businesses
12 have developed down there. It's not just
13 people living in DUMBO, it's businesses. But
14 the structure of the station is connected to
15 that cast-iron tube, which is the tube that
16 goes under the river. And for that reason,
17 it is especially somewhat dangerous and
18 complicated to talk about penetrating and
19 doing major construction on that cast-iron
20 tube. That is what made the cost, when they
21 looked at it a couple of years ago, so high.
22 It was in the hundreds of millions of
23 dollars, I think, just to start to open a new
24 entrance and get elevators in and so on.
61
1 So that -- again, happy to get into it
2 more, but that is a, you know, one of those
3 headaches from having a really old system
4 that we have inherited. And at this point it
5 looks like, you know, a nine-figure number.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Yeah, I'm
7 familiar with that. The problem is of course
8 it is money, and there's only one entrance
9 and exit, which is what makes it dangerous.
10 But also if you could talk about the
11 fare hike and how that is consistent with
12 your --
13 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Listen, again, I'm
14 prioritizing affordability and equity. We
15 think keeping -- returning to these moderate
16 fare hikes that existed before, at 2 percent
17 a year on average -- that's all we're doing,
18 is restoring that -- is consistent with the
19 commitment to affordability and, like, not
20 burdening riders with a huge -- you know,
21 we're down to 35 percent farebox recovery
22 from 55.
23 We're trying to keep some balance
24 between all of the stakeholders contributing
62
1 to this. It seemed like a reasonable level,
2 but you guys get to decide in the end.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
5 To the Senate.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
7 Our next questioner will be Senator
8 Mattera, who is the ranker on the
9 Corporations and Authorities. Five minutes
10 for the Senator. Thank you.
11 SENATOR MATTERA: I know, it says
12 Senator Tom O'Mara, but you know what, he's
13 the better half.
14 (Laughter.)
15 SENATOR MATTERA: (Mic off.) I thank
16 so much the MTA. It means a lot to me,
17 especially my district is Old Smithtown and
18 Old Huntington -- of course, you know, from
19 Huntington to Port Jefferson, we all know, we
20 have those old diesel --
21 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Really?
22 (Laughter.)
23 SENATOR MATTERA: So my question is,
24 what is the feasibility that this is going to
63
1 happen any time soon? Do we have like any
2 kind of time frame? Very excited about the
3 Lawrence Aviation site and like that. You
4 know, it seems like everybody is excited
5 about, you know, electrification of our train
6 system. So can you give me a little bit of
7 {inaudible} on that?
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Sure. So number
9 one is the folks who live in your region -- I
10 don't know your district exactly, but in that
11 region generally, are getting dramatic
12 upticks of service, 50 percent more service
13 coming to Huntington, Long Island. Forty
14 percent more service coming to Ronkonkoma. A
15 lot of folks are choosing between those two
16 branches. Whichever one they choose, they're
17 going to have dramatically more service.
18 You're right that four stations beyond
19 Huntington to PJ are diesel territory. We
20 studied -- a couple of years ago we did a
21 full-on study of that and what's required in
22 terms of a second track, you know, 17 or 18
23 substations. And all the technology to do
24 that looks very expensive. It's a totally
64
1 legitimate project, but it has to compete in
2 the very fact-based, what we call comparative
3 evaluation process that will be released to
4 everybody next fall, to see which projects
5 fared on economic grounds and ridership
6 grounds the best. That is being evaluated
7 through that process.
8 But I have to be honest with you, it
9 is expensive relative to the ridership issue.
10 SENATOR MATTERA: So you really can't
11 put a time frame --
12 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I can't --
13 SENATOR MATTERA: Is there any design
14 right now?
15 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Well, like I said,
16 that feasibility study had a ton of work that
17 went into it. We should sit down and go
18 through it so you have full information.
19 SENATOR MATTERA: Okay, great. Thank
20 you so much.
21 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: You bet.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
24 Assemblyman Curran.
65
1 ASSEMBLYMAN CURRAN: Hello, how are
2 you? Thank you, Chairman, for taking the
3 time to testify today.
4 My questions are local in nature, and
5 I don't expect you to recognize both of the
6 stations that I'm going to talk about. But
7 just for context, my district, the 21st, runs
8 from Valley Stream down on Long Island out to
9 Freeport. And there's two particular
10 stations that I want to talk to you about
11 today. I'm going to follow up on a letter
12 that was written to you by County Executive
13 Bruce Blakeman, dated August 31st, about the
14 Valley Stream Station. And in that letter he
15 described the dangerous condition of the
16 station, consisting of crumbling concrete,
17 rusting metal, peeling paint, weakening
18 overpass with rebar now showing through,
19 corrosive fluids dripping down on people and
20 cars, and a leaking and flooding condition in
21 all of the waiting rooms.
22 In that letter he also talked about
23 how that station was scheduled for a
24 $5 million capital project improvement back
66
1 in 2018 that they haven't seen. Again, I
2 don't know if you are aware of the situation
3 there, or do you have any notes with you
4 today just to give me a status about where we
5 stand with any possible repairs? Because
6 this station is truly dangerous for all of
7 the riders that go to it.
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Okay. So I do
9 know -- I remember that letter, and I
10 remember the TV story that came with it. And
11 we responded. We talked about the
12 condition -- I would go so far as to say we
13 rebutted the description of the conditions of
14 that over -- that station, the suggestion
15 that the steel was somehow unsafe.
16 And you and I should get together and
17 go over some of those details. But I know
18 that we responded. And, you know, Valley
19 Stream is your district, and the areas you're
20 talking about are important, and service is
21 increasing. And we're confident in the
22 condition of that station. I don't know as
23 we sit here about the cause of the delay of
24 that capital project, but I'm happy to get
67
1 into it. We don't -- we don't shut down
2 capital projects just for the heck of it.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN CURRAN: And I appreciate
4 it. And I will get a copy of that response.
5 And I appreciate you responding to him, I
6 just don't have that copy.
7 But what I do have is I have
8 50 photographs showing the dangerous
9 condition of that -- of that station. And if
10 you don't mind me giving them to you so that
11 you can take a look at them and then, you
12 know --
13 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I think I saw --
14 I'm happy to have it. I think I saw them,
15 along with the TV news story that came with
16 it, at the time that that public debate
17 unfolded. But we did respond specifically
18 about those conditions, and you and I should
19 go over that.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN CURRAN: I would love to.
21 Thank you very much. Just one other
22 question, Chairman.
23 So the next station down, on both the
24 Babylon and the Long Beach line, is Lynbrook.
68
1 And thankfully -- and I appreciate this --
2 there was significant capital money that was
3 put into Lynbrook back in 2019, after we
4 fought for it for about eight years. But the
5 capital money that was put in wasn't
6 sufficient enough to improve the entire
7 station. I have here a folder of
8 correspondence over the last two years
9 regarding crumbling concrete falling on
10 people, along with paint peeling along the
11 trestles areas throughout the village.
12 I was hoping to provide that to you as
13 well, and hoping that maybe we can actually
14 talk about some progress or possible monies
15 to address those problems at this --
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: You'll --
17 you'll have to --
18 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Happy to have it.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: You'll have to
20 do that offline.
21 But you can respond to the committee,
22 and we'll make sure to share it with all
23 the -- all the members.
24 Before we go to the Senate, we've been
69
1 joined by Assemblymembers Burgos and McMahon.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. I
3 don't think we have any additional Senators
4 right now, but our first post-chairs
5 questioner is Senator Hoylman-Sigal.
6 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Thank you,
7 Madam Chair.
8 Good to see you, Mr. Lieber and your
9 team, and thank you for helping to build back
10 confidence in our mass transit system after
11 COVID.
12 I wanted to ask you about Penn Station
13 in particular, and what you think we should
14 be doing to make Penn better, safer, work
15 better for riders.
16 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: You know, I'm --
17 thank you for the question. Being so
18 open-ended, I could go on at great length.
19 Listen, the bottom line is if you walk
20 into the existing Penn Station that the
21 New Yorkers depend on -- two subways, major
22 subway lines, together the biggest subway
23 complex in our system, 8th Avenue Line,
24 7th Avenue Line. Then you have the
70
1 Long Island Rail Road. It is the busiest
2 transportation facility in North America.
3 The MTA actually took about 20 percent of it,
4 that corridor between 7th and 8th Avenue, and
5 redeveloped it. So if you're standing there
6 with blinders on, you'd think it was a modern
7 transportation facility. But then you take
8 the blinders off and you look to the left,
9 and it's the dump bequeathed to us by the
10 1960s. Which is really unusable for our
11 riders.
12 And my push, and the Governor has been
13 very much in support, is we've got to fix the
14 station now. We have --
15 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: So what's the
16 price tag on that now?
17 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I think you and I
18 have talked about it. It's -- right now
19 we're not in final design, but we estimate it
20 at six to $7 billion. A lot of the play is
21 whether you include some of the outdoor
22 streetscape improvements.
23 One of the things we want to do is get
24 Madison Square Garden's loading off of 33rd
71
1 Street. They're just -- they're loading on
2 the street. It's a public street. We need
3 to make the changes so that their loading
4 docks can accommodate --
5 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: What would
6 $40 million a year toward the redevelopment
7 of Penn Station do for you?
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I haven't done the
9 math. But the bottom line is it's not just
10 money, it's time. We got Metro-North coming
11 in in a few short years, 2027. Unless Amtrak
12 can't give us outages; that's its own
13 problem. But 2027. So we need to get
14 started now, while Long Island Rail Road cuts
15 through half of them, have moved across -- or
16 a big chunk of them have moved across town --
17 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: But suffice
18 to say --
19 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Get started on the
20 work now, we've got to tear the station up,
21 make it great, and now wait till -- people
22 keep debating Madison Square Garden forever.
23 I want to fix it now, it's possible, let's
24 get started.
72
1 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: And let's get
2 some revenue into that project. And I think
3 you would not turn down $40 million a year
4 from the state and/or the City of New York.
5 That's 12.5 percent of what the city is
6 asking.
7 Just to acknowledge, Madison Square
8 Garden pays no property taxes. That's worth
9 $43 million a year out of the pockets of
10 New Yorkers. By the year 2030, that's going
11 to amount to a total of $1 billion -- and no
12 taxes -- that Madison Square Garden has not
13 paid and not contributed to the redevelopment
14 of Penn Station.
15 Thank you.
16 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Point taken.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
18 Assembly.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Next we go to
20 Assemblyman Carroll. Bobby, three minutes.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: Good afternoon,
22 Chair Lieber. I fully respect the fiscal
23 cliff that the MTA is facing, but I fear the
24 direction that the MTA is going may be
73
1 shortsighted. I fear that the increase in
2 the fare to $3 will end up having the
3 opposite effect that you hope, because I
4 still think the most pressing problem for the
5 MTA is luring riders back to the system.
6 We're at currently about two-thirds of
7 capacity of where we were prior to the
8 pandemic.
9 What is the MTA's plan to lure that
10 final 33 percent back into buses and subways?
11 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: So I think I said
12 it before: Quality, service, safety. We do
13 a fair amount of promotion as well. And we
14 are focused on affordability. I just want to
15 make it clear that if you look at the way we
16 have structured fares, you know, we're trying
17 to give promotional fares. The OMNY Lucky 13
18 fare, which makes it possible for people to
19 get a weekly automatically, rather than
20 having to put the money up front.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: But Chairman,
22 that's still more expensive than the old
23 traditional monthly MetroCard.
24 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: All right, you and
74
1 I can debate this, but at the end of the day
2 we think that -- the history is that these
3 small incremental increases, like the ones we
4 are resuming, do not suppress ridership.
5 The real issue on ridership: Work from
6 home. And we think that as long as we keep
7 providing high-quality service, safety, and
8 other -- you know, the other aspects of a
9 first-class mass transit system, hopefully in
10 time work from home will diminish and people
11 will come back to work, theater, shopping,
12 and everything that New York --
13 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: In your
14 financial plan are you contemplating a full
15 implementation of congestion pricing with no
16 exemptions?
17 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I think that the
18 way that you guys, the Legislature,
19 structured the law --
20 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: One billion
21 dollars, right?
22 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: It has to get to 1
23 billion. But it leaves open the question of
24 some of the exemptions.
75
1 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: But does your
2 plan contemplate that $1 billion?
3 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yes. One billion
4 turning into 15 billion of capital, correct.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: And does your
6 plan contemplate what the decrease in
7 ridership into the Central Business District
8 is, and how that will impact ridership on the
9 subways?
10 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: We have a -- our
11 plan is -- we've laid it out publicly. It's
12 a study that we did projecting the return to
13 80-plus percent of ridership in a couple of
14 years.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: By 2026.
16 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Correct.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: But so I presume
18 that in that plan that you did with McKinsey
19 that you probably looked at how high that
20 toll was and whether it would directly
21 correlate to more ridership on the subway?
22 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yes, it was taken
23 into account.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: And I'm assuming
76
1 that the higher that toll is and the less
2 exemptions there are, the higher subway
3 ridership is?
4 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Listen, you know,
5 one of the --
6 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: I only have
7 22 seconds. I think that's a yes, right?
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Remember,
9 congestion pricing, they're talking about
10 10 percent of the people who come. We have a
11 huge congestion problem, but it's a
12 relatively small piece of our commuting
13 population. So --
14 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: If those
15 10 percent go back into buses and subways,
16 that would help tremendously.
17 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I'm not -- I'm
18 not -- the goal is -- we're going to hit the
19 $1 billion goal consistent with the
20 legislation. That's the --
21 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: But don't we
22 need more riders? Won't you be back here
23 every single year if we don't get more
24 riders, and we should be focused desperately
77
1 on getting more riders into the system?
2 Because if we don't have more riders, we'll
3 never get out of this.
4 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I think my time is
5 up. And yours too.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: I know you agree
7 with me.
8 (Laughter.)
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
10 The Senate?
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
12 Senator Ramos.
13 SENATOR RAMOS: That's okay, I can
14 pick up right where Assemblyman Carroll left
15 off.
16 I too wish that we had more riders on
17 the MTA. In fact, to learn that there's a
18 $2 billion deficit while we have 120
19 billionaires in the State of New York whose
20 collective wealth is around $478 billion --
21 and to think that we can't collect the
22 political will to actually tax them the way
23 we should. Particularly Valerie Mars,
24 Stephen Ross -- one of my newest neighbors,
78
1 Steve Cohen, owner of the Mets. All of these
2 folks employ so many people who ride the
3 subway, and who should really be paying their
4 fair share of taxes so that we can have a
5 functioning system.
6 But it's okay, Janno, I'm not going to
7 ask you for your opinion on that.
8 I do want to ask about bathroom
9 accessibility, which I love to talk about, as
10 you know --
11 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: It's tradition.
12 SENATOR RAMOS: -- as is our
13 tradition. So it's one year later, and the
14 MTA has reopened 18 bathrooms, leaving a
15 remaining 115. So when do you think we can
16 see those open up?
17 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Like I think you
18 and I always discuss this. We are hiring new
19 cleaners. You've been a supporter of the
20 fact that we're getting rid of the contract
21 cleaners and we're actually hiring MTA folks
22 to be the cleaners.
23 Once we have enough cleaners so that
24 they can perform the additional duties of
79
1 working the bathrooms in a secure way --
2 that's always also been an issue -- we're
3 going to continue it. We love that people
4 treated it with enthusiasm, and we're going
5 to keep doing it, because we love positive
6 feedback. We're very simple that way.
7 SENATOR RAMOS: Okay, great. Well,
8 I'm glad that it's -- that it's happening
9 slowly but surely.
10 Have any attempts been made to work
11 with us, as the Legislature, to avoid these
12 hikes? Is there any data on how much it
13 would cost to stabilize fares at the current
14 rate?
15 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I think I said
16 before that -- you know, that the Governor's
17 plan balances between the MTA coming up with
18 cuts, the city coming up with more money, the
19 business community coming up with money, to
20 your point, in part because it is work from
21 home -- which is a business community
22 decision, for better or worse -- which is
23 requiring us to -- we're coming up short.
24 But also to restore those very gradual fare
80
1 hikes that have historically made our system,
2 you know, economically viable.
3 But as I said, 300, $400 million is
4 the value of the fare hike that's been
5 proposed in the Governor's balanced budget.
6 SENATOR RAMOS: Seniors and people
7 with disabilities in particular are having a
8 hard time, of course, paying their fare as it
9 is.
10 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: It's half. It's a
11 half-fare.
12 SENATOR RAMOS: Most of them -- well,
13 even the half-fare.
14 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: 1.37, $1.37.
15 SENATOR RAMOS: I'm talking about the
16 half-fare. The half-fare is too much for
17 them, given inflation, given the fact that
18 most of them are on a fixed income.
19 Can you talk a little bit about how
20 you're going to deal with the impact on that
21 particular population?
22 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Again, we're
23 thrilled that there are a million people in
24 New York who get reduced fare, and they pay
81
1 $1.37 for, you know, the amazing mass transit
2 system in New York.
3 I, you know, leave to the Legislature
4 and the Governor the balancing of all the
5 social equities issues.
6 SENATOR RAMOS: I'm out of time, but
7 I'll have more.
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I'm sure.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
10 Assembly.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
12 Otis.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Hi, there, Janno
14 and team. Nice to see you all. Thank you
15 for all your good work on so many issues.
16 I'm going to hit three questions, and
17 then you do what you can with them. But very
18 quickly, in terms of any forecast on the
19 prospect of additional federal funds that
20 maybe we're not expecting, maybe a
21 possibility of us doing better to fill some
22 of these gap issues.
23 Question number two is I'm interested
24 in what your plans are for expanding EV
82
1 charging infrastructure at Metro-North train
2 stations on either Metro-North or Long Island
3 Rail Road, which is certainly something I'm
4 hearing from constituents would be helpful.
5 And number three, on the Metro-North
6 line, there are sometimes trains that are
7 less than full and sometimes trains that
8 actually are full at certain times. What are
9 your metrics in terms of ability to adjust
10 number of cars on trains based upon real-time
11 clogging of cars with people and not enough
12 seats? Thank you.
13 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Okay, so let me
14 just take it backwards. So we do look at
15 ridership levels on trains constantly. We
16 now use weight-loading data that we have to
17 tell us how -- it's not just how many tickets
18 we collect, we're actually using the actual
19 weights of trains. So even if the conductor
20 doesn't get through the whole car, which does
21 happen sometimes, the whole train, we still
22 know how many people are on that.
23 We do use it to adjust service. I'm
24 happy for you to talk to Cathy Rinaldi, who's
83
1 running the railroads, about specific
2 conditions. We're very focused on it.
3 EV charging. Listen, we are really
4 excited about making it easier for folks at
5 the end of the subway line or in the city or
6 in the commuter railroads, whether in the
7 city or without, to get better last-mile
8 connections. So we love the idea of more
9 bikes, more electric bikes, and we're doing a
10 ton of work on that. We just put out a
11 report with a full-on strategy on that. EV
12 charging is part of that, and we're getting
13 started on that.
14 And finally, on additional federal
15 funds, I have been urging the federal
16 government to consider them. You know, the
17 deficit the MTA has is a huge number but it's
18 much lower than the other major transit
19 systems. We're 12 percent, our deficit is
20 12 percent of our operating budget. Chicago
21 and New Jersey are double that. I think L.A.
22 is three times that. So it is a national
23 problem.
24 The politics in Washington doesn't
84
1 look like it will produce operating
2 assistance for transit, which has been on and
3 off, on and off over the years, mostly off.
4 But we'll keep pushing for it. I've written
5 to the secretary, I've talked to Schumer's
6 office about it, and we would love to
7 resume -- get the feds to in effect do a new
8 COVID relief bill for transit, 'cause COVID
9 ain't over for the mass transit systems.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Great. Thank you
11 very much. And just on EV charging, the
12 electricity's already there in most of these
13 locations, and it's another way for you to
14 attract customers. Because that may be an
15 added attraction if they can charge at your
16 lots. So thank you very much.
17 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Amen to that.
18 Thank you.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
20 Senate?
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Senator Roxanne Persaud.
23 SENATOR PERSAUD: Thank you.
24 It is great to see you,
85
1 Mr. Chairperson. I know we had a
2 conversation a couple of weeks ago and I'm
3 looking forward to you coming to my district
4 so we can walk the corridors that we
5 discussed.
6 We're all talking about the trains,
7 but we've not spoken about the buses. We
8 have a major problem with buses in my
9 district, particularly in the Gateway area
10 where there's a new mall and the tremendous
11 amount of housing that's there, and that's a
12 transit desert.
13 Has the MTA -- because you haven't put
14 forward anything to us -- begun plans on how
15 we're going to move buses into that area?
16 And -- I just want to give you all my
17 questions --
18 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Sure.
19 SENATOR PERSAUD: -- all at once,
20 because -- and there's a major problem there.
21 And what are we doing to operate the
22 Access-A-Ride system that still sees so many
23 issues on a daily basis for those riders most
24 in need, especially riders who are part of
86
1 our disabled community. It is unfair what
2 they have to go through, and we really have
3 to revamp that service.
4 And then last but not least is my
5 question that I ask every year. It's about
6 the express buses. The timeliness of the
7 service of the buses, particularly when you
8 talk about the BM2 bus, the BM1 bus. The BM2
9 bus in particular is never on time -- well, I
10 shouldn't say never. It's probably like
11 2 percent that the BM2 bus is on time.
12 (Laughing.) And I know you've heard me say,
13 over and over, what are we doing with the
14 express buses that people rely on? Because
15 where I'm from, it's a transportation
16 desert and the express buses are the mode of
17 transportation to get into the city.
18 What are we doing with that?
19 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah, I'll go fast.
20 So express buses, I'm with you.
21 Because I ride that darn bus from sometimes
22 home from the corner of State Street and
23 Battery Place. And it's not -- it's not
24 totally reliable. And you're not wrong.
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1 It's an incredibly long route. Which is why
2 the conditions, the congestion and the
3 unpredictability of the street conditions is
4 so important.
5 So the same way we're pushing for bus
6 lanes and speed -- and automatic bus lane
7 enforcement cameras and traffic signal
8 prioritization, all those things will benefit
9 express buses. Even more, in some ways, than
10 local buses, because they have so far to go
11 and their schedule can get screwed up.
12 So I'm with you. That Spring Creek
13 Depot, where they run those buses out of,
14 needs to get better, you're right about that.
15 And let's keep talking about that.
16 Access-A-Ride. We've made dramatic
17 improvements. You know, the on-time
18 performance and the rate of no-shows on the
19 Access-A-Ride -- you know, the blue-and-white
20 vans are only 30 percent of our paratransit
21 operation right now. The rest is for-hire
22 vehicles. People are getting black cars to
23 go where they're going, usually alone,
24 sometimes with one other person. So it's a
88
1 much more reliable system, much better
2 on-time performance, much better in the rate
3 of no-shows.
4 And for the first time, we've got --
5 Access-A-Ride is back to almost 100 percent
6 of pre-COVID. It's a sign that we are -- we
7 have improved it. I'm happy to give you
8 those stats.
9 And the final thing was buses. And
10 I'll come back to you with some more detail
11 about buses in general. We're redoing the
12 Brooklyn bus routing system, and that process
13 is underway. It's a dialogue with the
14 community, with you, with other stakeholders.
15 SENATOR PERSAUD: Thank you.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
17 Assembly.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman
19 Seawright.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SEAWRIGHT: Thank you,
21 Madam Chair.
22 And thank you for your testimony
23 today.
24 The OMNY tap-and-go system has been
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1 successfully installed in subways and buses
2 around the city. However, the Roosevelt
3 Island Tramway still continues to lack having
4 OMNY. Can you tell us why this has been
5 delayed and when you expect it to be
6 installed so that our Roosevelt Island
7 residents and visitors can benefit from this
8 service?
9 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Okay. So I think
10 the thing you're concerned about is when will
11 we have OMNY adapted for the Roosevelt Island
12 Tram. The answer is it's projected to happen
13 in the second half of this year. I'm happy
14 to get into specific dialogue with you.
15 The background to it is OMNY, for good
16 reasons, was rolled out before the software
17 was finished. We wanted to start to get
18 people to adapt it. And then during COVID,
19 we took advantage of the fact that there were
20 fewer people riding to install it in the
21 whole subway and bus system. That was great.
22 But we didn't have the software at
23 some of the specialty locations like
24 Roosevelt Island Tram, like the AirTrain in
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1 Jamaica Station and a few other places.
2 The software has to catch up, and we
3 are working on it. But that is right now the
4 projection: It's going to be the second half
5 of this year.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SEAWRIGHT: Are you
7 having troubles with your vendor?
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Always. I mean,
9 this is the -- you know, really complicated.
10 We just completed something that was
11 hugely important, which is we got OMNY for
12 all our reduced-fare customers, which was its
13 own complicated version of the software.
14 That was accomplished, and we're now helping
15 a lot of people to make that transition.
16 They can do it in person, they can do it
17 online. I'm rolling out customer service
18 centers all around the system, so they're not
19 just -- they don't have to come down to the
20 MTA headquarters.
21 So that was a big step in the OMNY
22 direction. The next one is to get some of
23 these affiliate entities like Roosevelt
24 Island Tram, AirTrain, and also the NICE bus
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1 in Nassau and the B Line in Westchester. We
2 need specific software and installation for
3 those, and we're working on it.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SEAWRIGHT: Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
7 Next, Senator John Liu.
8 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair.
9 And thank you, Mr. Lieber and your
10 team, for doing your best to get our folks
11 back on the subways and buses.
12 I have a simple question for you,
13 Janno. You know, there's been this long,
14 longstanding rivalry between New York City
15 and Washington, D.C. You know what they did?
16 You know what they recently did? They made
17 buses free. Forever. What are the chances
18 that we could do that in New York City?
19 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Well, it won't be
20 my decision alone. But here's what I think
21 is relevant, is that, number one, my job is
22 to make sure the MTA gets balanced. So I
23 love talking about more service and better
24 service and cheaper service, but first we've
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1 got to like -- let's cook the cake before we
2 talk about extra frosting. That's my
3 personal responsibility.
4 And number two is I am concerned about
5 moving quickly into something which is a
6 massive experiment without having thought
7 through the unintended consequences. Our own
8 people estimate that free buses without doing
9 subways, without other modes being free,
10 would shift that 5 percent of subway
11 ridership onto buses. They would have longer
12 commutes, but there would also be financial
13 consequences to that.
14 So we need to spend some time looking
15 at -- you know, some people have experimented
16 with this, which is interesting, but not on a
17 massive scale. I'm also concerned about the
18 ethics of fare -- the ethos of fare payment
19 in the city. When we turned off fares on
20 buses during COVID, which was an experiment
21 of sorts in this, and told people to get on
22 the back, we've gotten a really hard time
23 getting them back in the habit of paying and
24 of paying on subways. We all know fare
93
1 evasion has gone up dramatically.
2 So I want to -- I want --
3 SENATOR LIU: All right, I'm --
4 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: We've got to make
5 sure we can pay for it. And two, I want to
6 work on understanding what would or wouldn't
7 be the unintended consequences.
8 SENATOR LIU: Well, and I think -- I
9 think you -- over the years you and the team
10 at the MTA have come up with possible
11 scenarios and different pricing mechanisms
12 for various plans. I would encourage you to
13 take a look at what those unintended
14 consequences are, as well as the potential
15 cost impact for providing free buses.
16 I don't think most New Yorkers
17 consider buses or even free buses icing on
18 the cake, or frosting, as you suggested.
19 It's the cake itself. It's the cake itself.
20 And we want people to have an easier time
21 getting to and from work, from school, all
22 sorts of things that they need to do. Mass
23 transit is a very important part of it, and
24 buses are integral, especially outside
94
1 Manhattan. If Washington can embark on this,
2 if Boston, if Denver -- I know those are much
3 smaller cities. But I think it's time for
4 the MTA to at least consider the possibility,
5 as opposed to just casting it often as a pipe
6 dream and frosting on the cake.
7 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Well, I don't think
8 that's a fair characterization of what I
9 said. But I take your point.
10 And we always do study. And one of
11 the ways we're assuring affordability is to
12 make sure that people who come to your
13 district to get on the Long Island Rail Road
14 are paying five bucks, or a little bit more
15 in the peak. Dramatic, targeted
16 affordability in that case.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
18 Next is Assemblywoman Jo Anne Simon.
19 Oh, excuse me, Assemblymember, I
20 apologize. A new Assemblymember -- who I
21 know quite well, because he overlaps me. So
22 I apologize. Assemblymember Tony Simone.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN SIMONE: Hi, everyone.
24 Previously you said, Janno, that we
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1 need a system that's frequent and reliable.
2 Do you think 10-minute head-count time, wait,
3 really waiting 20 minutes -- the C Train I
4 usually take is considered frequent and
5 reliable. And to follow up on that, how do
6 you reconcile that with the fact that this
7 year's budget puts no money towards
8 increasing frequency?
9 And I have a second question. Janno,
10 you also responded to the question about Penn
11 Station indicating fixing existing Penn was a
12 priority for New Yorkers and should happen as
13 soon as possible. With Vornado having
14 declared it cannot provide funding for years,
15 maybe a decade, is it time to reconsider the
16 GPP and put together a state-financed plan,
17 in sync with Leader Schumer, to expedite the
18 Penn project? With no dependence on a
19 private developer who claims to be in fiscal
20 crisis now, building 10 office buildings I
21 feel we don't need.
22 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: So on your last
23 question, I am -- on that transportation
24 project, I am not in the ESDC or the GPP. I
96
1 do know that the way that the Legislature set
2 things up with the Governor -- and I know
3 that Senator Krueger and Senator Comrie had a
4 role in this, and others as well -- was that
5 none of those developments are going to move
6 forward without an agreement about how the
7 development rights would be priced, and so
8 on.
9 So I'm not counting on any of those
10 for rebuilding -- you know, fixing existing
11 Penn now. We have, you know, hundreds of
12 millions of dollars that were previously
13 appropriated for that. I would like to go
14 whole hog to get the federal money to make
15 sure that this project happens on the time
16 frame that I've talked about.
17 So I think you and I are maybe looking
18 at it in a similar way. Let's go get the
19 money, let's make sure that New Jersey and
20 Amtrak are on board. We've got to build this
21 before Metro-North comes in, in a few short
22 years, and get it going so that they'll have
23 a first-class station that looks more like
24 that corridor that we built, on time,
97
1 $100 million under budget, than that hellhole
2 that is the rest of the station.
3 I can answer your other question, but
4 it's -- are we running -- 10-minute headway.
5 Look, sometimes people like to throw around
6 numbers. Let's just remind ourselves what
7 the headways really are. We have 77 percent
8 six minute or better in the morning. All
9 through the day, it's 69 percent six minutes
10 or better. And 95 percent -- 98 percent in
11 the morning are 10 minutes or better.
12 So when people start throwing around,
13 you know, that we have 20-minute headways,
14 that's not true. The average wait for a
15 six-minute headway train, which is
16 overwhelmingly the majority, is three
17 minutes.
18 So let's -- I'm for more service. I'm
19 always for more service. That's my business.
20 But let's just not mislead folks about how
21 much people are waiting for subways, because
22 the subway system is rock-and-roll.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
24 much. Thank you.
98
1 Next is Senator Hinchey.
2 SENATOR HINCHEY: Thank you very much.
3 I represent a Hudson Valley district,
4 so I am always very jealous of my colleagues
5 who have good public transportation. So
6 thank you for your testimony and for your
7 work.
8 But I do represent part of Dutchess
9 County, so we are in the MTA region with
10 Metro-North. And I want to take a moment to
11 ask about the Payroll Mobility Tax. I
12 represent -- Dutchess County is a pretty
13 rural county, and especially the portion of
14 Dutchess that I represent, the northern
15 portion, quite frankly most if not nearly the
16 vast majority of nearly all the people who
17 live in Northern Dutchess are not commuters.
18 These are people who live locally.
19 And so while it is a nominal increase,
20 it's still nearly $300,000 just to the
21 county, an increase to the county, which is
22 substantial.
23 And so wondering, twofold -- first, is
24 there a way for the -- what's the plan for
99
1 these payroll taxes? And are they going to
2 be -- stay more locally to where they're
3 connected to help with service where they're
4 collected? And two, is there a way to
5 rate -- is this planning to be weighted by
6 the rest of the county and rural areas, even
7 though within that PMT region?
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Okay. So I'm going
9 to ask CFO Kevin Willens to answer. But just
10 an important point is only 5 percent of
11 businesses will be paying, only the top of
12 the income scale of businesses will be paying
13 this.
14 SENATOR HINCHEY: It's 1.7 million,
15 though, am I right?
16 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: For the PMT, yes.
17 MTA CFO WILLENS: The total PMT is
18 approximately 1.7 billion.
19 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Billion.
20 MTA CFO WILLENS: From all the --
21 SENATOR HINCHEY: I guess what's the
22 threshold, then, for the business?
23 MTA CFO WILLENS: It's 1.75 million
24 for the top-rate 1.25 million payroll. At
100
1 1.25 million payroll and below, no businesses
2 are paying PMT, which as the chair said is
3 approximately 95 -- 95 percent of the
4 businesses, by count, in the 12-county
5 region, pay no Payroll Mobility Tax ever, and
6 they won't be paying it under the new
7 proposal.
8 SENATOR HINCHEY: I will say, though,
9 Northern Dutchess is a rural community, and
10 so a lot of our farm businesses or ag
11 businesses -- 1.7 actually is pretty low in
12 the scheme of an agricultural business or a
13 farm, based on the amount of money they make
14 that has to go back into the farm.
15 And so I imagine many of those would
16 be impacted.
17 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: It's $1.75 million
18 payroll.
19 MTA CFO WILLENS: Payroll.
20 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Payroll. If that
21 payroll is in excess of a million and
22 three-quarters, yeah.
23 SENATOR HINCHEY: Thank you. Is there
24 still, though, talking about the dollars that
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1 are located -- is there any way to keep some
2 of those local, or does that go back into
3 the --
4 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: We should talk
5 about it. Because we want to invest in our,
6 you know, Dutchess County, which I know well,
7 as well as, you know, the MTA system.
8 The concept is based on the analysis
9 that they -- Dutchess County would pay less
10 than 1 percent of the payroll tax. But we
11 can talk about the services that are being
12 provided, making sure places like -- you
13 know, Wassaic and others, are getting -- are
14 getting good service, and making sure we're
15 investing.
16 SENATOR HINCHEY: I would like to talk
17 more about that, especially also the
18 breakdown by county. Thank you.
19 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: You bet.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
22 Kim.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN KIM: Thank you.
24 Thank you for your testimony today.
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1 So according to a 2021 study by the
2 Community Service Society, 48 percent of
3 eligible New Yorkers do not apply for the
4 Fair Fares program. What percentage of
5 eligible New Yorkers applying would mark a
6 successful program?
7 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: You know, it's a
8 good question. The Fair Fares program is
9 operated by the City of New York. It was a
10 little underfunded in the de Blasio era.
11 Mayor Adams and Speaker of the Council Adams
12 increased that.
13 But the important thing is your point,
14 which is how many people who are in that
15 low-income category know about it and have
16 the eligibility and are getting that
17 reduced-fare MetroCard.
18 We are -- we actually went over to
19 City Hall and started pushing them, and it's
20 a collaboration, to market this more
21 aggressively. We only have, I think, less
22 than -- less than 40 percent of eligible
23 New Yorkers in that low-income category
24 actually have the benefit. We want to push
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1 it more so the numbers go up.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN KIM: Okay, is there a
3 tangible kind of internal goal that --
4 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: You know, I think
5 you've got to -- you've got to get well over
6 50 percent before you feel like you're really
7 making a difference to that -- folks who need
8 it most.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN KIM: Okay. So if you
10 reach 50 percent above UB, is the MTA okay
11 leaving behind the other percentage --
12 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: No, absolutely not.
13 As I said, our goal is everybody who
14 qualifies to get it. It will make -- it will
15 be such a benefit in terms of access to
16 opportunity and jobs and school and
17 everything.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN KIM: And speaking of
19 fares, are the fares like tied to the MTA's
20 debt financing? I mean, in other words, like
21 is MTA's ability to borrow tied to the fares?
22 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: There's -- you're
23 right in the sense that historically we've
24 had our borrowing, since the early 1980s when
104
1 Dick Ravitch was the chairman, it was sort of
2 revenue-backed bonds, the different MTA
3 revenues. Because the market wants to know
4 you have the ability in a crisis to generate
5 that revenue.
6 But the decision that the -- what the
7 Governor's put on the table is not -- has
8 nothing to do with the borrowing. It has to
9 do with balancing the budget and
10 contributions coming from the city, the
11 state, the business community and a little
12 bit from the riders. That's the fare
13 increase that we're talking about.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN KIM: But the
15 revenue-backed bonds, it's backed up by the
16 state, correct? So it's something, if
17 there's a default, we still have a moral
18 obligation to make sure that we're -- you
19 know, we're good on the bond, right?
20 MTA CFO WILLENS: There's no specific,
21 quote, moral obligation on MTA's debt, so the
22 bonds you're talking about are secured both
23 by the farebox revenue and all the other
24 taxes and subsidies that float MTA, but
105
1 there's not a state guarantee or what was
2 historically considered moral-obligation
3 debt.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN KIM: Okay. I just want
5 to -- I'm just making that point, because
6 it's -- if there's no linkage, then there's
7 no financial reasoning why you can't work
8 toward finding new revenue streams to provide
9 the free buses that other members have
10 suggested, and making sure we find other
11 sources of revenues.
12 That's all. Thank you so much.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
14 Senate?
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
16 much.
17 Senator Gonzalez.
18 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Hello? Hi. As
19 someone who represents three boroughs and has
20 also taken public transit my entire life, I'm
21 really excited to be on the Transportation
22 Committee, to make sure that we have more
23 reliable, more accessible, and hopefully more
24 affordable service.
106
1 I'm a cosponsor on the "Formula 3"
2 Act, a bill by Assemblymember Mamdani and
3 Senator Gianaris, which as you likely know
4 would provide adequate state funding for the
5 MTA to reject upcoming fare hikes, increase
6 the frequency of service on trains and buses,
7 and make buses free.
8 Knowing that the Executive Budget
9 fills the current year's operating deficit
10 and that Formula 3 would provide billions of
11 dollars of additional operating aid to the
12 MTA in the outyears, with certain
13 requirements regarding fare increases, union
14 contracts and service frequency, I'm really
15 trying to understand if you're saying today
16 that you support the 5.5 percent fare
17 increase -- and you've also said in previous
18 statements that you're concerned whether
19 these increases are a burden on lower-income
20 New Yorkers and contribute to declining
21 ridership -- if your position has changed.
22 And then given your opening remarks, would
23 you support a final state budget that
24 includes money to avert a fare hike this
107
1 year?
2 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: So just to be
3 clear, I get -- I have to be agnostic about
4 our ability to continue to run the high level
5 of service. I understand that we're engaged
6 in a process that there's going to be a
7 discussion between the Legislature and the
8 Executive. I'm not unrealistic about that.
9 I -- honestly, we've made a proposal,
10 the Governor's made a proposal which I think
11 is responsible and balanced and does achieve
12 that goal. Now begins the discussion between
13 the Legislature -- the houses of the
14 Legislature and the Executive about which
15 elements to include, to modify, or to
16 exclude.
17 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Absolutely. And
18 have you -- considering it's on the survey,
19 have you any evidence to support that riders
20 can afford these increases?
21 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Listen, all I can
22 tell you is what's happened in the past, that
23 the moderate increases that we had in effect
24 and the Legislature supported for more than
108
1 10 years, did not suppress ridership. We
2 actually consistently went up over that time
3 period.
4 So we -- I understand that we all
5 would like a very, very affordable system.
6 I'm not as down for subsidizing better-off
7 people. I like targeted affordability as a
8 strategy. And we have been pursuing that in
9 many different ways.
10 SENATOR GONZALEZ: We'll definitely
11 need more data there.
12 I'm also the chair of Internet &
13 Technology and trying to understand the
14 $150 million that will contribute to more
15 safer security, considering that we already
16 have 10,000 cameras. And as you mentioned,
17 crime is down, over 60 percent of New Yorkers
18 feel safe. I'm trying to understand, one,
19 are these cameras and additional cameras
20 you're proposing using facial recognition
21 technology or collecting biometric data? And
22 two, if you'd commit to working with the
23 State Legislature to better understand how
24 you're using -- how you're collecting data,
109
1 how you're using it, how you're storing it,
2 and how you're disposing of it, to protect
3 New Yorkers' privacy.
4 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Okay. Well, the
5 great thing about being a member of the
6 Legislature is you get to tell us what to do.
7 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Yeah, fantastic.
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: So have at it.
9 We've all been very successful in complying
10 with the open data requirements. But --
11 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Do you mind a yes
12 or no on the facial recognition technology,
13 though?
14 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: The answer is no,
15 we're not using it for -- what we're doing,
16 what that money is -- clearly is for
17 technology to keep people off the tracks, out
18 of the tunnels and, honestly, unarmed. We're
19 trying to do more with unarmed fare
20 enforcement but also unarmed law enforcement
21 on buses, which have started to have some
22 crime -- not crime, but disorder problems
23 that we think are best addressed with an
24 unarmed force.
110
1 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Great. Thank you.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Thank
3 you.
4 Next, Assembly.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman
6 Gallagher.
7 I just want to remind members asking
8 questions to leave time for the answers so
9 you're not -- we don't have to keep cutting
10 the chairman off. Thank you.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER: Hello. It's
12 nice to see you all. I'm Assemblymember
13 Gallagher, representing the 50th District
14 with the G Train. But we'll get to that in a
15 minute.
16 I'm very much looking forward to this
17 bus lane enforcement program. And I know
18 from riding the B62, the B48, the B43 in my
19 district that often the culprits of parking
20 in the bus lane are the police and city
21 vehicles.
22 So I'm wondering, do you have a plan
23 to work with the city and the NYPD to
24 manage -- if they are parking in the bus
111
1 lane, what will the enforcement look like?
2 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: You know, we have
3 great collaboration with the NYPD on the
4 everyday policing of the system. We've made
5 a lot of progress. That's one area where
6 historically it has been tough for all of us
7 who work in government to make progress.
8 There have been -- we have had -- talked
9 about some specific precincts that have a
10 little bit of a problem of bus lane parking.
11 It is -- you're not the first one to raise
12 that issue. Are happy to work with anybody
13 if we can try to move the dial on that.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER: Okay, great.
15 I would love to get involved in that. It
16 might be really difficult (laughing).
17 But I also -- I was wondering -- I
18 think Senator Gonzalez covered this, but do
19 you have any data of what happens to
20 ridership when the fare does increase?
21 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah, the data so
22 far is in the last 10 years, with these
23 moderate increases, basically 2 percent a
24 year, it has not suppressed ridership. And
112
1 I'm happy, since that's come up a couple of
2 times, to share the data. We went up, up, up
3 over the time since that pattern was
4 established, and it was a positive trend.
5 But we can certainly share it.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER:
7 Additionally, I was wondering -- I know that
8 for about 40 years in the earlier period of
9 the MTA's storied history, that the
10 ridership and the -- or, sorry, the fare that
11 was really reliable about New York City.
12 Is there a cap on when we will say we
13 cannot ever raise money -- raise the fare
14 again?
15 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Look, I mean, I
16 don't need to remind you, because you
17 obviously know the history, that 40-year
18 period ended with the people who operated the
19 New York City Transit system going bankrupt
20 and handing this leftover asset over to the
21 city. So not such a good outcome.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER: Oh, well.
23 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: But -- but your
24 point is well taken. We're not disagreeing.
113
1 We want to keep the fares affordable. The
2 question, what we're debating, is like how --
3 you know, what constitutes affordability and
4 how to maintain it. That is a fair debate to
5 have.
6 But as I said, I think the history has
7 been that these moderate increases, which
8 just allow us to keep up with inflation and
9 our labor costs -- remember, we were making
10 labor deals over that period in the last
11 10 years that were about two and a quarter,
12 2.50, 2.75 percent per year, but the fare was
13 going up 2 percent a year. So it created a
14 structural imbalance that came home to roost
15 even before COVID, and now we're dealing with
16 a maximum version of it.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER: Okay, thank
18 you.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry. Thank
21 you very much.
22 Is Senator Mayer still here with us?
23 Hello, Senator Mayer. Can you get to
24 a microphone?
114
1 SENATOR MAYER: Hello. Thank you,
2 Madam Chair.
3 Pleasure to see you. Three quick
4 questions to answer as you can. On the
5 receipt of the federal COVID funds, the
6 14 billion received I think in 2020 -- not
7 that you have to go through it now, but can
8 you give us a breakdown of how those were
9 used?
10 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Simple. Very
11 simple. It was used to maintain the system
12 and to fill the gap that we're all talking
13 about, which was more extreme during COVID.
14 Literally every dollar, as required by
15 the Congress and the law, went to maintain
16 service and to pay our workforce without
17 cutting -- doing layoffs or service cuts.
18 That was what the law required.
19 I make no -- but people attack us
20 sometimes on that money. I don't apologize
21 for paying people to run service at the
22 height of COVID. Those people were brave,
23 they came in before we understood
24 transmittal. And that's where -- why we
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1 needed that money, and that's how we used it.
2 SENATOR MAYER: Okay, understood. And
3 we agree about that, as you know.
4 Secondly, in your proposal, what would
5 be the average fare increase for Metro-North,
6 as opposed -- you've talked about the subway.
7 But what would be the Metro-North fare
8 increase anticipated?
9 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I think we're --
10 it's 5.5 percent across the system.
11 Exactly -- exactly how that will be
12 structured, TBD.
13 We like to -- right now, post-COVID,
14 what we like to do is to give more discounts
15 to people who are using it more frequently,
16 who tend to be more essential workers, more
17 people who need affordability. So you see
18 with Lucky 13 on the subway and some of the
19 other discounts we're doing, we're trying to
20 skew the fare structure to recognize people
21 who are greater users who tend to be lower on
22 the income spectrum.
23 SENATOR MAYER: But the average,
24 5.5 percent anticipated?
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1 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Rough -- yes, right
2 now.
3 SENATOR MAYER: Okay. And thirdly,
4 you referenced it earlier, your excellent MTA
5 Police Department. Can you just explain, as
6 briefly as you can -- or later -- the
7 interplay between the NYPD and the MTA Police
8 Department with respect to trains? Because I
9 don't think ordinary riders understand that
10 both are working together to make safety a
11 priority.
12 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah. I mean, the
13 MTAPD, the PD is responsible for the commuter
14 rail system, broadly speaking, and the NYPD
15 is responsible for the subways and the buses.
16 It's that simple.
17 Although we have, as part of this
18 safety initiative begun in October by the
19 Governor and the Mayor, the MTAPD took over
20 for the subways at four major railroad
21 terminals -- Atlantic, Jamaica, Penn, and
22 Grand Central -- because we already had big
23 presences there because of the commuter
24 railroads.
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1 Other than that, that's the
2 separation. They do collaborate, as they did
3 in one case where there was, you know, a guy
4 who was threatening to attack a synagogue and
5 he was coming in on the Long Island Rail Road
6 and then he was in Penn.
7 SENATOR MAYER: Right.
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: But they
9 collaborate regularly. It's a very strong
10 relationship.
11 SENATOR MAYER: But it's been enhanced
12 by this connection at these four other
13 locations in Manhattan. Or and --
14 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Well, yes. Good
15 point. Yeah, good point. We are doing more
16 collaboration than ever.
17 And you walk into Grand Central or
18 Penn, you'll see both -- both varieties of
19 police, depending on where you are.
20 SENATOR MAYER: No, appreciate it.
21 thank you very much. Thank you for your help
22 on all these issues in my district.
23 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Thank you.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
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1 Assemblyman Bores.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Thank you for
3 being here, and thanks for all of the work
4 you do to support the lifeblood of New York
5 City.
6 I share your goals of bringing more
7 people into the subway system, to return
8 ridership to as much as we can, given the
9 exogenous changes. And there's many reasons
10 that people give for not riding, among those
11 accessibility, which we've addressed, and
12 cost. But I want to focus on safety and a
13 few parts of safety specifically.
14 A number of residents in my district
15 were very concerned about incidences of
16 riders being shoved under the platform. I
17 know the MTA is looking at different sorts of
18 platform barriers that could prevent those
19 instances, which all have come with really
20 high costs attached to them, and you need to
21 balance the different demands.
22 In 2020 the MTA released a study on
23 platform barriers and the different options.
24 You're familiar with that study?
119
1 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yes.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: At 3,920 pages, I
3 would say it's quite extensive. There's one
4 sentence in there about potential fences,
5 just fixed to platforms, that says that that
6 was discarded early because of concerns of
7 people being dragged.
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Was there a study
10 behind that? Was there more done? It just
11 feels like that's a light sentence, versus a
12 4,000 page report.
13 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: It's a fair
14 question. In fact, notwithstanding that one
15 sentence, we are actually looking at whether
16 there are some places where it does make
17 sense to have a -- you know, a stationary
18 barrier.
19 There are a couple of places in the
20 system, I think in the shuttle and a couple
21 of other places where --
22 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Canal Street as
23 well has one.
24 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: We do have them.
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1 The -- so the idea is what we're looking at
2 is in that boarding area where we kind of
3 encourage people to locate -- tends to be
4 right next to the conductor's position.
5 Maybe there are places where you could safely
6 do that kind of barrier, people could feel
7 like there was additional protection, even if
8 you didn't have one of these multi-million-
9 dollar platform door systems.
10 So we are looking at that,
11 notwithstanding what was in that.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Wonderful. I
13 think it's so much cheaper than other
14 solutions and obviously can work where a lot
15 of the automated heavy ones that require more
16 equipment can't. So --
17 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: And the reasons for
18 not doing it kind of go away if you're
19 already -- if there are pillars on the
20 platform, columns that would already
21 interfere with, God forbid, someone being
22 dragged.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: I very much
24 appreciate you looking into that, and hope to
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1 see more on there.
2 The second piece of safety I wanted to
3 follow up on was just the cameras. Obviously
4 there was an OIG report, December 2022 --
5 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yup.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: -- that I'm sure
7 you're familiar with that gave
8 recommendations on how to staff the levels.
9 You rightly point out, and I quote, that
10 recommendations regarding staffing levels,
11 training, relying on manufacturers'
12 preventative maintenance protocols are
13 acknowledged. However, these are business
14 decisions.
15 Given your emphasis on the cameras
16 that you brought up earlier, and rolling them
17 out to more in the cars, could you just give
18 an update on how you're thinking about those
19 tradeoffs?
20 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: So -- and listen,
21 the -- you know, a lot of this drama came out
22 of the incident on the N line, on the
23 4th Avenue line -- and I'm just going to
24 finish this one -- and our cameras were
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1 operating 99 percent of the time. And on
2 that day, we had dozen of images of
3 Frank James, which actually helped the cops
4 find him. We would never have gotten him.
5 So the whole idea that the cameras are
6 a problem is a little bit of a red herring to
7 us. And the idea that we would throw a ton
8 more staff in making sure that every camera
9 in the system is operating every minute of
10 every day didn't seem like it was based on,
11 you know, weighing the thing.
12 So we're going to always try to be
13 better, but I'm not ashamed of the fact that
14 we've got 10,000 cameras and the police are
15 literally taking hundreds of images from us
16 on a weekly basis and giving us the highest
17 kudos for that system. It helps.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Agreed. And I'll
19 just follow up on the tradeoffs.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
21 Thank you. Senate?
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
23 Senator Gounardes.
24 SENATOR GOUNARDES: There we go. Good
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1 afternoon.
2 Janno, you know, I think you and I
3 have adopted a lot of the same rhetoric and
4 language around funding public transit. And
5 I just want to call attention to some of the
6 tension that exists between making a case for
7 more public funding of the public transit
8 system while at the same time calling for
9 more revenue to be raised on the backs of
10 riders to help fund that same public transit
11 system.
12 And I know other folks have kind of
13 walked down this path with you, so we don't
14 have to go have the fare hike discussion
15 again. But there is a tension between both
16 of those ideas. And we recognize that the
17 system is in a crisis, and we want to help
18 address that crisis. But if we're going to
19 fundamentally shift the way we pay for mass
20 transit, it can't come on the backs of
21 riders. Whether that's 5 percent now,
22 5 percent five years ago, 5 percent next year
23 or beyond.
24 So I appreciate the situation we're
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1 in. I think we have to do a lot more to
2 think about how we can get beyond the need
3 for regular fare increases and revenue to be
4 raised on the backs of, you know, riders and
5 user fees, so that we can have a fully funded
6 transit system.
7 You know, so my first question to you
8 is, with what the Governor's proposed right
9 now, that gets you whole for how long?
10 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Through, again,
11 2026. And beyond that, it depends in part
12 on -- she projected, it's a broad projection,
13 450 million would be available to the MTA
14 through her prioritization of mass transit
15 for casino revenues. That's a little less
16 certain.
17 But certainly through 2026, and then
18 beyond it depends in part on the casino
19 revenues.
20 SENATOR GOUNARDES: If that doesn't
21 come through, we'll have to come back here
22 again and figure out something else, perhaps.
23 Hopefully not, but perhaps. Right?
24 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: But, you know, in
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1 fairness, the prioritization of casino
2 revenues, which is a very significant future
3 and predictable revenue stream towards mass
4 transit, is thrilling to the MTA. Because
5 what we've said is we need recurring revenues
6 in a significant number. And the idea of
7 taking that new source and prioritizing mass
8 transit is a very positive development.
9 SENATOR GOUNARDES: And this plan
10 calls for raising $500 million from the city.
11 You know, the city is cash-strapped, they're
12 dealing with a lot of extra costs being
13 placed on them as well, due to a number of
14 crises. They are picking up a huge cost of
15 the social service delivery in the subway
16 system right now. If we don't force the city
17 to eat this tab, we have to come up with that
18 $500 million. If we want to fight the fare
19 hike, we have to come up with that
20 $350 million. We have to eat that,
21 basically, $850 million if we want to avoid
22 those things happening to keep you in the
23 black for this year and beyond. Correct?
24 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I don't know
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1 absolutely the math, but you're -- it sounds
2 like you're on the right track.
3 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Okay. There's a
4 report by Reinvent Albany that came out
5 recently saying that the -- you know, we
6 routinely, when we do our budget allocations,
7 we sweep about $375 million out of your --
8 the Transit Assistance Fund. So perhaps we
9 should look to keep that funding back in, and
10 that gets us a part of the way there.
11 Thank you very much, and look forward
12 to working on this issue with you guys.
13 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Thank you, Senator.
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
15 Assembly.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
17 Jacobson.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: Thank you,
19 Madam Chair.
20 I represent a district in the
21 Hudson Valley: Orange, Ulster and Dutchess.
22 And I represent Beacon and Poughkeepsie. So
23 I have two stations.
24 First of all, I want to say I'm
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1 opposed to the new payroll tax. It sends the
2 wrong message to businesses, especially
3 locally owned small businesses. It would be
4 a real big impact. If you can make a case
5 that the MTA should be supported, then let's
6 use the general revenue funds. It's not fair
7 to the -- to most of the people in the
8 Hudson Valley. And we only have a
9 quarter-vote, as you know. So it makes no
10 sense.
11 Concerning the Beacon Station. I
12 don't know if you've gone there. It has a
13 very, very impressive aroma when you go
14 there, and that's because there are no
15 bathrooms. It stinks. The stench is
16 terrible. Nothing has been done.
17 So I want to know, is there any chance
18 that we can get some bathrooms? They don't
19 have to be elaborate. They have them at
20 construction sites. There's a way to do it
21 for temporary bathrooms. And it would be a
22 lot better. It's a very busy station on the
23 weekends. Everybody goes to Beacon, we know
24 that. So what are you going to do about
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1 that?
2 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I don't know.
3 First I learned about it. But I'm definitely
4 on the idea of a porta john for Beacon.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: The other thing
6 is while --
7 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Can I -- can we --
8 can I just respond to your earlier comment?
9 I -- I don't know whether it was taken into
10 account as you were thinking through your
11 response to the PMT. But as we said, this is
12 only 5 percent, the largest 5 percent of
13 businesses that would actually have any
14 impact from what the Governor has proposed.
15 So when you say small businesses,
16 local businesses, I respect that. Based on
17 the analysis to date, they would not be
18 impacted.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: Well, we'll
20 agree to disagree.
21 Next, there has been an uptick in
22 traffic in -- from Poughkeepsie and Beacon,
23 especially more in Beacon, but not every day
24 of the week. There's a lot of factors on
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1 that, a lot of factors of people having
2 remote work and so forth.
3 But one of the things is when you --
4 in the beginning, after the pandemic was
5 pretty much over, you came up with a
6 brilliant idea, let's lower the fares, supply
7 and demand, and that would increase traffic.
8 It did. Now we've raised it again.
9 Why not lower the fares on the
10 commuting? It will increase traffic, and I
11 think you will net a more positive outcome.
12 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Okay. Well, not
13 what our analysis is showing. But we very
14 much are trying to jump-start ridership, and
15 we have used fare structure in the past to do
16 it. And we're going to keep looking for
17 discounts that have the effect that you're
18 suggesting.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: Thank you.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Excuse me. Thank you very much.
23 Senator Skoufis.
24 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Thanks very much,
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1 Madam Chair.
2 And pardon the musical chairs here.
3 Good to see you, Chairman Lieber.
4 And whatever differences we may have
5 about West of Hudson's vision, I always do
6 genuinely appreciate the transparency and
7 responsiveness from your leadership team,
8 Will Schwartz and anyone that I do engage
9 with at the agency.
10 I do want to drill into a little bit
11 the proposed increase in the Payroll Mobility
12 Tax. I do understand, and I heard you just
13 say, again, for the second or third time,
14 that yes, this affects a slice of businesses.
15 Not all businesses, mostly not small
16 businesses.
17 A quick question before I get to my
18 main remarks here. Does this extend to
19 municipalities as well?
20 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I'm not certain.
21 But there are substantial exemptions that I
22 know included all of the schools. Does it
23 include the municipalities as well, Will?
24 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Municipalities
131
1 currently pay the tax. And so I'm guessing,
2 unless there's some new carveout, that they
3 will pay increase --
4 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I guess it depends
5 on the size of the municipality's payroll.
6 SENATOR SKOUFIS: They would have to
7 exceed the threshold. But there's no
8 carveout specifically for municipalities for
9 this --
10 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Not that I'm aware
11 of at this point.
12 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Right. And so in
13 effect every single taxpayer, every single
14 property taxpayer -- forget about businesses.
15 If you're a municipality getting hit by this
16 increased mobility tax, every property
17 taxpayer will pay a slice of that increase in
18 their property tax bill. I think that's fair
19 to say.
20 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Well, I don't know
21 how it's translated.
22 SENATOR SKOUFIS: I think, you know,
23 in West of Hudson and Orange County --
24 previously also Rockland Country, where I
132
1 used to represent -- there is enormous
2 frustration because it seems every year, and
3 I think among some legislators too, every
4 year we're back having a similar
5 conversation: How do we shovel more money
6 into the MTA?
7 And in addition to farebox revenue, we
8 recently had an historic and enormous capital
9 program that included state resources. We
10 have the payroll tax, which I mentioned. The
11 congestion pricing, which will establish
12 about a billion dollars, once it's
13 implemented, a year. We have DMV transaction
14 fees, mortgage recording taxes, a petroleum
15 tax that goes to the MTA, the COVID bailout.
16 And now you want more state money,
17 more city money, you want to increase payroll
18 tax, casino revenues -- as if that has
19 anything to do with anything here. And the
20 long story short is my constituents are taxed
21 to death for a service they get little to
22 nothing out of. There are times in the
23 middle of the day -- not overnight, there are
24 no trains overnight West of Hudson. In the
133
1 middle of the day, they're waiting hours and
2 hours and hours for the next train.
3 And we have no subways, obviously. We
4 have no MTA buses, obviously. Yet what is
5 being proposed is the same 47 percent tax
6 increase, mobility tax increase, as every
7 borough, as Long Island, as East of Hudson.
8 My question is, how do you justify to
9 West of -- Orange, West of Hudson, including
10 Orange constituents of mine, that this is a
11 fair tax increase?
12 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: All right, did I
13 run out of time? Am I allowed to respond?
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Short answer.
15 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Bottom line is mass
16 transit is what makes this region, the
17 region's economy function. And that the West
18 of Hudson counties, along with the whole MTA
19 region, since the PMT was adopted 10-plus
20 years ago, have had much higher job growth
21 than adjacent counties that did not have a
22 PMT.
23 So the idea that it's a job killer and
24 that it's suppressing economic growth I don't
134
1 think is fact-based. I'm always happy to
2 talk about, you know, the level of service
3 and how we ought to work together to improve
4 and increase service to folks in your
5 district, because we've got to get them over
6 to the Hudson Line. I'm sick of them having
7 to rely solely on New Jersey Transit to get
8 to Hoboken, yadda, yadda, yadda.
9 So let's talk about how we can connect
10 people to the service that exists and that's
11 more frequent.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 Assembly.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay.
16 Assemblywoman Mitaynes.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: Hello. Hi.
18 The question is, do you agree with the
19 Governor and the Mayor's "New" New York Panel
20 goal to maintain peak subway service and
21 improve the frequency and reliability of
22 subway service during off-peak hours?
23 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: The goal? Yes,
24 absolutely.
135
1 And our on-time performance has been
2 stellar, off peak and on peak. It is
3 history-making, best in 10 years.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: How do you
5 reconcile the fact that there's no money
6 included for this in the budget?
7 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I'm sorry, I did
8 not hear the question.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: How do you
10 reconcile that there's no money in the budget
11 for this?
12 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Well, I'm -- you
13 know, I don't know what the right analogy is.
14 I think that we've got to fill the bucket
15 back to make sure that the MTA, at the
16 current service levels, which I believe are
17 pretty solid -- we can always improve -- has
18 enough money to maintain that level of
19 service.
20 And then, if the consensus is to go
21 beyond that and to have more service or to do
22 other things, certainly talk about it.
23 You'll never have arguments from us about
24 improving service -- increasing service.
136
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: What do you
2 think the impact of increasing frequent buses
3 and trains would be on ridership levels?
4 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I don't know.
5 Again, we have -- 77 percent of our
6 folks who are traveling in the daytime are
7 getting six-minute service. So we have to
8 talk about where and how we're going to
9 increase service, if we're going to do it, in
10 order to give you a meaningful response on
11 how much it's likely to increase ridership.
12 I would like to increase -- if we have
13 a choice, to increase it in the evenings, up
14 to 10 o'clock, and on the weekends. We're
15 trying to find ways to do that within the
16 constraints of the existing workforce, how
17 much equipment we have, and also getting our
18 capital work done.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: So we agree
20 that increased service of trains and buses
21 would mean that there would be more trust in
22 the ridership, and therefore increase the
23 service?
24 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: At 85 percent
137
1 on-time performance, we're getting very good
2 feedback from riders, but we can always hope
3 for better. Absolutely.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: Can you
5 explain the thought behind spending over a
6 million dollars to hire security for the
7 subway stations? And what was the thinking
8 behind where these were going to be placed?
9 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: So one of the
10 problems we have in the -- fare evasion is --
11 historically, I grew up in New York City,
12 there was turnstile jumping, all kinds of
13 ways people got in in the old days.
14 But what happened is we have this exit
15 gate, which apparently is being required by
16 the code authorities about a Fire Code issue.
17 And that exit gate, people just open, and
18 they stream in.
19 So it's some select locations where we
20 knew we were having a problem, where people
21 were breaking vending machines and opening up
22 the gate and taking money. We started
23 putting unarmed security guards -- it's a
24 great investment, because it's actually
138
1 deterring people from opportunistic fare
2 evasion.
3 I actually stop people who walk up to
4 the turnstile with their OMNY cards on, with
5 their OMNY phone in their hand, and see the
6 gate open, and they go for the gate. And I
7 say to them, "You know better than that," and
8 then they go pay.
9 So we're stopping that kind of
10 opportunistic fare evasion. It's the right
11 thing to do. We're not -- we're not -- you
12 know, we're not the police, but we're doing
13 it in a gentle way by discouraging people
14 from walking in that exit gate.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: It definitely
16 says a lot about your priorities. One of the
17 places that this happened was at my local
18 train station --
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Time. Time.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: -- where the
21 shooting happened.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you,
23 Assemblymember.
24 To the Senate.
139
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
2 Senator Fernandez.
3 SENATOR FERNANDEZ: Good afternoon.
4 Thank you so much for being here today and
5 taking our questions.
6 I am Senator Fernandez. I represent
7 District 34 that has parts of Westchester
8 County and the Bronx.
9 It's been mentioned by many here that
10 we're looking to increase taxes, fares for
11 New York City riders, more from New York City
12 taxpayers to pay for this, and the payroll
13 tax that would affect my Westchester
14 constituents.
15 Why do we want to tax the working
16 New Yorker instead of somebody who does --
17 and hey, billionaires -- to pay their fair
18 share to assist in the needs of the MTA?
19 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Well, I mean,
20 again, the Payroll Mobility Tax is hitting
21 only the 5 percent of the largest companies.
22 So I think it kind of speaks to some -- you
23 know, some of your comment.
24 It's a narrow, carefully tailored tax
140
1 that goes to the companies who are permitting
2 remote work -- it's not an illegitimate
3 choice -- but who want us to have
4 five-day-a-week quality service. So for
5 them, they're letting their employees come in
6 one to three days a week, but they want our
7 service to be there five days a week so that
8 folks can come in.
9 And that's why we're saying it's
10 appropriate to ask them to contribute along
11 with the city, to take up some, you know,
12 things that have become skewed in our
13 financial relationship with the city --
14 SENATOR FERNANDEZ: But it's
15 appropriate to have New York City riders,
16 still New York City taxpayers --
17 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yes.
18 SENATOR FERNANDEZ: -- to pay more for
19 the entire MTA fund?
20 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Well, in this case,
21 there's a division of labor. Remember, the
22 MTA operates -- the city owns the subway
23 system. We took it over because it was
24 bankrupt and we were subsidizing it with
141
1 fares from -- you know, revenues from the
2 Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority. That
3 was the historical deal.
4 Over time, there has been a lot of
5 cost-sharing. The city has equally shared in
6 the Subway Action Plan, in the capital plan,
7 and again and again. This is -- the proposal
8 that the Governor's made is consistent with
9 that idea that there's shared responsibility
10 between the city, the owner of the subway
11 system, and also the -- you know, who handed
12 us paratransit and Access-A-Ride and express
13 buses and many other things, and the state.
14 It's consistent with that vision and that
15 history.
16 SENATOR FERNANDEZ: Thank you. I just
17 want to put on the record I do think we need
18 to advance and update the Access-A-Ride
19 program, possibly with an app, in the future,
20 because it is crazy that we still have
21 seniors waiting hours, at times, for their
22 Access-A-Ride to show up.
23 But I do want to touch on OMNY and the
24 weekly fare-cap pilot program that was
142
1 started. Has it been decided that this will
2 be a permanent policy?
3 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I missed the
4 question.
5 SENATOR FERNANDEZ: The weekly
6 fare-cap program by OMNY --
7 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yes, we're still in
8 the -- technically, it's a pilot, but I think
9 that the idea of using fare-capping, that
10 automatic, weekly, when you reach a certain
11 number of rides --
12 SENATOR FERNANDEZ: Twelve rides.
13 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: -- I believe is
14 here to stay. And it's important because
15 that way people don't have to decide, when
16 they walk up on a Monday or whenever, do I
17 take a weekly, do I take a monthly. Let the
18 system give you the best fare.
19 That's a lot of wasted money where
20 people are buying products that they didn't
21 get the full advantage of. And it's a real
22 benefit to the consumer, so I'm expecting
23 we're going to keep that.
24 SENATOR FERNANDEZ: Okay. I
143
1 appreciate the accessibility that OMNY has
2 brought. But surveillance, does a third
3 party have access to riders' card information
4 and location history? And what has the MTA
5 done to protect that?
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Time.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Time.
8 SENATOR FERNANDEZ: Oh, man.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You'll have to
10 answer Senator Fernandez afterwards because
11 you've run out of time.
12 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: With pleasure.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman
15 Giglio.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Good afternoon.
17 Thank you for being here, and thank you for
18 the South Fork commuter rail. It is
19 tremendously popular and very much used.
20 The question that I have for you is --
21 or the couple, is the 6:20 a.m. train on
22 Fridays, from Memorial Day until Labor Day,
23 was discontinued due to the Cannonball train
24 that was coming out from the city. I'm
144
1 wondering if you have any plans to restore
2 that line so that the businesses and
3 hospitals and schools, who employ many
4 people, can continue to use that train during
5 the summer months.
6 It's been a big problem. And I know
7 that it was rejected again last year --
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Is this the Friday
9 train or the Monday train?
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: The Friday
11 train, the 6:20 a.m., and then the 5 p.m.
12 westbound. The 5 p.m. westbound doesn't seem
13 to be as much of a problem as the 6:20 a.m.,
14 while people are trying to get to work.
15 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Listen, we love --
16 you know, there's 40 percent more service
17 coming to Long Island Rail Road within a
18 matter of weeks when we switch over to the
19 new schedule because of Grand Central
20 Madison.
21 So I will take a look at which trains
22 are there for the ridership pattern you want
23 to get into, and we'll get back to you. But
24 we -- there's going to be a ton of reverse
145
1 commuting service, and I think that train
2 falls in that category. It's going the
3 opposite direction on a Friday morning. So
4 let's take a look.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Yes, so that
6 would be very helpful to many of my
7 constituents.
8 And then the second line is the
9 capital plan to electrify the train on the
10 main line and the Port Jeff line and also the
11 Speonk to Montauk line, if that is anywhere
12 in your future projections. Because we talk
13 every day on the floor in the Assembly and
14 the Senate about contaminations to our
15 environment, and the diesel is really a big
16 problem. We need to electrify that rail.
17 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: So -- so the good
18 news is Long Island has gotten literally
19 fifteen to $20 billion of megaprojects that
20 are making this possible, this 40 percent
21 increase in service. That's a good. Hope we
22 don't forget that.
23 All new megaprojects like the
24 multi-billion-dollar electrification projects
146
1 are going through what we call comparative
2 evaluation, looking at all the projects that
3 might ask for money at that scale in our
4 capital plan. We have to give you guys and
5 the world a report, a 20-year needs
6 assessment, in the fall. That's when you'll
7 have an answer to those questions about those
8 particular projects.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Well, please
10 keep that at the top of your list, as we've
11 just completed the Third -- the Third --
12 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Third Track, Double
13 Track, Grand Central Madison --
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: -- Rail, Third
15 Rail, Second Track, East Side Access --
16 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: -- all the tracks
17 are fixed. A lot of investment in the Long
18 Island Rail Road.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Long Island
20 needs some love. Thank you.
21 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: They get a lot.
22 And the Ronkonkoma -- yes.
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Yes.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
147
1 Just colleagues and MTA, we're going
2 to take a five-minute break so people can
3 stretch their legs and use facilities.
4 So we're going to set the clock for
5 five minutes, just a reminder to everybody.
6 (Brief recess taken.)
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We're back for
8 round -- well, it's not Round 2, we're just a
9 continuation.
10 And I don't see my colleague Tom
11 O'Mara back, so I'm going to take my
12 questions first. Thank you.
13 And many questions have been asked and
14 answered, and I really hate referencing the
15 New York Post ever for anything -- sorry if
16 you're in the audience --
17 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: They're right here.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Sorry.
19 But they had an article or two
20 referencing how much more you're spending on
21 Long Island Rail Road staff than seems to be
22 conceivably justifiable. Multiple people
23 overlapping and not working, people getting
24 paid more when there's baseball games going
148
1 on, multiple shifts that you just don't need
2 that many people -- there's a long list. I
3 can read you the Post article, but you've
4 probably read it.
5 Tell me what's going on and why your
6 numbers are so different than for the
7 Metro-North or the subways.
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: So listen, some of
9 that is -- I mean, broadly speaking, I never
10 apologize for the fact that my predecessors
11 had railroad agreements, many of which date
12 to the early 20th century, because the
13 Long Island Rail Road has been around that
14 long, that govern how work is distributed in
15 jurisdiction among different crafts and how
16 many people you have to staff a job. It's
17 all fairly achieved in collective bargaining,
18 most of those issues.
19 But sometimes you need to update, and
20 that's what we will do. We'll put those
21 issues on the table -- the legitimate ones,
22 at least -- in collective bargaining.
23 However, in the meantime, what we're doing is
24 we're taking advantage of the fact that we
149
1 have one person, a fantastic woman, Cathy
2 Rinaldi, running both railroads, to look at
3 opportunities to compare and contrast cost
4 and efficiency. And we are using Cathy's
5 knowhow and also data that shows us the
6 difference between these two railroads, to
7 identify those inefficiencies and where we
8 can, without violating collective bargaining
9 agreements, to get better at it.
10 That is one of the ways we're knocking
11 out the $400 million in savings that's in the
12 Governor's plan, is using data and also
13 technology to identify opportunities for
14 efficiencies. Some of that will address some
15 of the issues that you read about.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And there was a
17 report, I believe, that because of new
18 federal infrastructure money -- oh, sorry,
19 mine went off. Thank you. -- that because
20 of new federal infrastructure money, our
21 roads and bridges were going to see about
22 another 13 billion in money from the feds.
23 Does any of that go to the MTA?
24 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Listen, we -- the
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1 Biden infrastructure plan had an increase in
2 the formula money. That was about
3 $3 billion. The balance of what Chuck
4 Schumer -- who is our guardian angel in
5 Washington -- projected that the MTA would
6 receive is in discretionary categories. We
7 have to compete for the money, so it's very
8 early days for us to say for sure how much
9 extra money we're going to get. But they
10 have money for zero-emissions buses. We are
11 on the verge of putting out the largest
12 zero-emissions bus contract in the
13 United States, 470. It's money for ADA,
14 which you know we're committed to, because
15 we're doing so much more than everybody else
16 ever did. And other categories. So we have
17 to compete for the money, but we're after it,
18 every category.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And there seems
20 to be a little confusion between your
21 operating funding cliff and your capital
22 funding cliff. So just to make sure that I'm
23 understanding it correctly. So congestion
24 pricing, when it ever comes, that was
151
1 intended to borrow money for capital, am I
2 correct?
3 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yes. Correct.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And there's no
5 plan to move that into operating.
6 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Absolutely not. We
7 need every dollar for making sure this
8 hundred-plus-year-old system that wants to
9 fall apart does not fall apart.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And so the
11 proposal by the Governor to increase revenue
12 to the MTA on an annual basis from a number
13 of different streams is intended to address
14 the operating deficit that you are facing --
15 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yes.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: -- moving into
17 the future, correct?
18 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I'm thrilled that
19 the chair of Senate Finance knows that
20 difference between the operating budget and
21 the capital budget; I know you do.
22 You know, I sometimes explain to
23 people it's like the educational environment:
24 You've got to build the school, and then
152
1 you've got to pay the teachers and the
2 custodians and the professionals who work in
3 the school. Build the school's capital
4 budget, operate the school's operating
5 budget.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And because when
7 you read real estate, I guess -- what are --
8 they show up every -- real estate blogs, you
9 see that some of the major real estate
10 entities in New York City, particularly in
11 Manhattan, which I represent, are discussing
12 that, you know, it's just their -- they're
13 just not going to fill those commercial
14 buildings the way they ever did before, and
15 they're now recognizing it and they're taking
16 it off of their books from a projection of
17 revenue.
18 So when we talk about where you are on
19 people returning to the MTA, do you have a
20 sense of if we're all doing, quote, unquote,
21 everything right, because of changes in the
22 economy and how people approach work and
23 where they work, what level we actually think
24 is reasonable to expect to get back to?
153
1 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah. I mean,
2 we've -- our projections that we're operating
3 from in the budget that you have in the
4 Governor's proposal, is based on that. They
5 show us getting back into the 80s
6 percent-wise, versus pre-COVID, in 2026.
7 But, you know, I'm in the
8 never-bet-against-New York business. I spent
9 14 years on the World Trade Center project,
10 where people said, Eh, downtown's gone,
11 forget about it, turn it into a farm or a
12 putting green or all kinds of crazy ideas.
13 And we rebuilt the most dynamic business
14 district and all kinds of people came there
15 to live and work and play, and it's a
16 one-of-a-kind place.
17 So I am fundamentally optimistic about
18 New York. But we do have our projections,
19 and we put them together with professionals.
20 So I'm not giving up. I think we're going to
21 exceed it.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: But are your --
23 so I'm also fundamentally optimistic about
24 New York. I'm also fundamentally a believer
154
1 that we've always tried to crowd everything
2 onto the head of a pin called Manhattan
3 Island, and it's okay with me if we're
4 expanding our business opportunities through
5 the other boroughs and through other parts of
6 the region.
7 So for me, it's almost more important
8 to see and hear how the MTA can address
9 making sure that we target better mass
10 transit to other areas within the 12-county
11 region, that people could actually be working
12 and living without an expectation that it all
13 has to be aimed for Midtown and Lower
14 Manhattan.
15 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: No, you're
16 absolutely right. We have a transit system
17 that's still in some ways a legacy of the
18 early 20th century in terms of its design.
19 That's why the bus system is so important,
20 because we have much more flexibility to
21 direct people to destinations than we do with
22 a heavy rail system that can't move, and why
23 we have to make buses so much faster.
24 It's also why the Governor's IBX
155
1 proposal is exciting, because there are more
2 people working -- moving between Brooklyn and
3 Queens for work than there are coming across
4 the river to Manhattan, but they don't have
5 really a direct way of doing it. So the IBX,
6 along with the G Train and a more dynamic bus
7 routing system, which we're working on right
8 now with folks in Brooklyn and Queens, is an
9 answer to your question, which is well-made.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So the Mayor and
11 the Governor I think both talked about
12 supporting the interborough rail between
13 Brooklyn and Queens. Is that expected to --
14 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah, that's the
15 interborough express. That's --
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Is that expected
17 to be an MTA project or independent of the
18 MTA?
19 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah, it's supposed
20 to be an MTA project. We just announced
21 with -- the Governor announced that we've
22 completed the phase of the environmental
23 review that allows us to choose light rail as
24 the mode, and now we're going into full-on
156
1 environmental review and design. And then
2 hopefully, you know, if it makes the cut, it
3 will be in a position to compete for capital
4 dollars in the next capital plan.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm going to cede
6 back my other three minutes. Thank you very
7 much.
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Thank you.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly?
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
11 Assemblywoman Sillitti.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SILLITTI: Hi.
13 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Hello.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SILLITTI: So I think
15 some of you know me. I represent a commuter
16 district that is exclusively on the --
17 majority on the Port Washington line.
18 And so I just want to first -- you
19 know, on the record -- thank you for working
20 with us on the restoration of the express
21 line. It was appreciated, your willingness
22 to work with me and the thousands of
23 constituents. So I wanted to get that out of
24 the way first, on the record.
157
1 So you mentioned before in your
2 testimony, you were talking about there was
3 this, you know, increase in service for the
4 Long Island Rail Road, better commute,
5 40 percent increase. So for me, my issue
6 is -- for the Port Washington line
7 specifically, is that we're using -- we made
8 massive cuts during COVID, obviously. But I
9 feel like it's the base -- you're using that
10 as the baseline for the comparison.
11 So for example, in 2019 there were I
12 think 18 a.m.-peak trains and then 19 trains
13 in the evening. And in COVID we had about
14 11 going in in the morning and I think 14 in
15 the evening. So with the timetables that you
16 guys worked on with us, which again I want --
17 again, I appreciate so very much -- it's
18 still 11 in the morning, and then we have 10
19 from Penn and 10 from Grand Central.
20 You know, we want people to return
21 into the city. You know, the Governor wants
22 people to return into the city. My
23 constituents, many of them have the option of
24 working from home. And if this new schedule
158
1 doesn't work, they're going to do that. And
2 we don't want them to. We want to increase
3 capacity, we want people to be back on the
4 trains. And now that you mentioned before
5 that they're safer, get back on the trains,
6 get back into the city.
7 So I guess my question is this, in two
8 parts. You know, you have -- in
9 conversations Long Island Rail Road said
10 they'll review ridership, you'll make
11 adjustments as needed. So I just really want
12 to emphasize, you know, will you monitor the
13 situation for the entirety of the Long Island
14 Rail Road -- and I'm speaking to the entirety
15 of the Long Island Rail Road -- and the Port
16 Washington line. And if there's overcrowding
17 and other issues, will you address it in an
18 expedited manner?
19 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah. I mean,
20 your -- your point is well taken. The
21 constraint that we've got -- as you know,
22 Assemblyman, you were incredibly helpful in
23 us, you know, resolving that -- the question
24 of the express trains and how we would
159
1 configure it. But the constraint on the
2 Port Washington line is we have no yard
3 space. And that was a bad decision made many
4 moons ago, long before you and I were around
5 here. And we're living with it, and now
6 people have woken up to the fact that it
7 keeps us from running as many trains as we
8 should be able to on that big piece of our --
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SILLITTI: Part of it's
10 that. And then also, you know, there was an
11 increase in service in Queens. That was the
12 second part of it.
13 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah, but --
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SILLITTI: And I think
15 the Port Washington end --
16 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: All over the Long
17 Island Rail Road we used to run 406 trains a
18 day in and out of Penn, and now, between Penn
19 and Grand Central, we're going to run, you
20 know, seven -- 650-odd --
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SILLITTI: With one
22 second left, all I want to do is just make
23 sure you keep track and, if there is issues,
24 address them in the quickest manner possible.
160
1 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I will be thrilled
2 to work with you if we achieve overcrowded
3 trains (laughing).
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SILLITTI: There you go.
5 Done, thank you.
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: To the Senate
7 now. Thank you.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
9 Senator Tom O'Mara. Five minutes,
10 please.
11 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you, Chairman.
12 And again, thank you for your visit this past
13 late in the year to Hornell, New York, and
14 Alstom, our car-manufacturing entity. As you
15 know, we have a strong railcar manufacturing
16 base across the Southern Tier, but other
17 places in New York State too.
18 So even though I'm from way upstate, I
19 truly understand the value of the MTA, and to
20 the economy of New York State as a whole,
21 particularly New York City. So I thank you
22 for your commitment in allowing -- or working
23 with New York State manufacturers for these
24 capital needs that you have.
161
1 I want to ask a couple of questions,
2 though, on the buses and the Green New Deal
3 and the electrification of buses in New York.
4 And I am fully supportive of the
5 electrification of buses in our urban areas.
6 I think that's a critical aspect to be
7 focusing on initially. But I read recently
8 that you or somebody from the MTA had
9 submitted some comments to the Public Service
10 Commission that it was costing you two to
11 three times as much to charge your electric
12 buses that you have than it would to fuel a
13 diesel or a natural gas bus.
14 You stated you have 15 electric buses
15 now -- that seemed awful low to me -- but
16 you've got a fleet of 5800 buses that would
17 have to be converted to electric. And
18 there's a recent I think bid out there right
19 now of 1.1 billion for just 500 buses. Which
20 would come out, per bus, at 2.2 million. I
21 assume there's some costs in there for the
22 charging stations as well, because that seems
23 high per bus.
24 But, you know, what is the cost going
162
1 to be to the MTA for this? And what's the
2 feasibility of, you know, transferring to
3 electric buses, which I think we should be
4 pushing. But we also need to look at the
5 feasibility and the affordability of it, both
6 of which were really left out of the climate
7 plan when it was done.
8 So if you could just comment on the
9 overall electrification of buses in New York
10 City.
11 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: So, yeah, thank you
12 for the question. It's a hugely important
13 area. We have to get there. I mean, there's
14 no question that we need to have an -- you
15 know, use our bus fleet to achieve our
16 environmental goals. We don't have any
17 choice. We're out of time on -- on the
18 consequences of climate change.
19 So we're taking -- we have a goal of
20 having a fully electric fleet by 2040. I
21 think that gives us the time to get there,
22 both in terms of procurement, testing of the
23 buses in the New York environment, and the
24 installation of charging infrastructure.
163
1 But you're not wrong that it would be
2 incredibly helpful if we had a special
3 transit tariff through the PSC that would
4 enable us to, you know, to have an
5 appropriate, not -- we're not looking for
6 something that's a freebie, but that would be
7 appropriate to the scale of what we're doing.
8 We are working with NYPA on the
9 installation of charging infrastructure at
10 several of our major depots. Senator
11 Comrie's home district, the Jamaica Bus
12 Depot, is one of the first. Incredibly
13 bus-dependent neighborhood.
14 But we're in full gear to try to
15 switch over to electric, and the cost
16 structure, in these early days -- we're going
17 to get more capacity in the system, I know --
18 is -- you know, there is an incremental cost
19 to it, and we'd love to work with the
20 Legislature to deal with that.
21 SENATOR O'MARA: Well, thank you for
22 that. And I think that the overall cost of
23 the timeline really needs to be something
24 that needs to be fleshed out and just how
164
1 it's going to be paid for. Because this
2 whole scheme is overwhelming and proposes a
3 lot of impact to our economy as a whole in
4 New York State.
5 But just to where I started out, under
6 the current tariff that you have right now,
7 it's costing you two to three times as much
8 to charge an electric bus than it is to fill
9 it up with diesel?
10 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I don't -- my
11 apologies, I don't know the exact numbers.
12 We'll get back to you with that. It is more
13 than old-fashioned, dirty fuels, yeah. And I
14 know that the state is making huge
15 investments in renewables and working to
16 bring that cost down. For us, it's really a
17 challenge to make sure we have the capacity,
18 in addition to the cost. We have to put all
19 that charging infrastructure in and make sure
20 we can run the system.
21 So -- but we'll give you specifics on
22 it. And as I said, we would be thrilled to
23 work together on some special accommodations
24 for transit, which has this huge collective
165
1 value.
2 SENATOR O'MARA: Well, thank you.
3 And in addition to the strong railcar
4 manufacturing industry we have in New York, I
5 hope that we are working as a state to have
6 an equally as strong electric bus
7 manufacturing that entities such as the MTA
8 can utilize. Thank you.
9 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: You bet.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
11 Assembly.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman
13 Shimsky.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SHIMSKY: Thank you very
15 much, Madam Chairwoman.
16 And thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
17 I represent a district in the Hudson
18 Valley and Westchester County. I have the
19 Hudson and Harlem lines going through.
20 My first question concerns something
21 that came up in the Governor's State of the
22 State address. She has an Innovative
23 Mobility Initiative, which covers upstate
24 areas and areas outside the MTA. But the
166
1 reason I bring that up is there are large
2 swaths of real estate within the MTA's
3 territory where things like fixed-route buses
4 simply are not cost-effective. And one of
5 the things I wanted to know from you is, at
6 what point is the MTA looking at how to
7 reimagine mass transit in a more
8 cost-effective way in those areas?
9 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Listen, I -- I
10 don't know all the specifics, but I'll tell
11 you, what I'd like to go over with you is
12 our -- the concept of the last mile,
13 strategies to deal with the last mile. If we
14 can get people that connection to a rail
15 station, ideally, or even to a bus station,
16 so that it becomes -- makes sense for them to
17 do it on a -- as a pedestrian, on some
18 electric vehicle, on a bicycle, however, and
19 that we have enough parking and charging and
20 support for that, that will make a
21 difference.
22 Also, we're trying to experiment, you
23 know, with these circulatory feeder services
24 or on-demand services. These are all things
167
1 that could make the difference between making
2 MTA fixed rail an option for somebody. And
3 you don't want to just keep having to build
4 more parking lots.
5 So it's an area where I think there's
6 huge opportunity for growth and creativity,
7 and we're into it. So let's have the
8 discussion.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SHIMSKY: Oh,
10 absolutely.
11 My second question concerns safety
12 equipment and upgrades. In my region we
13 still have a lot of at-grade rail crossings.
14 We have the old-fashioned gates that were
15 around when I was growing up, probably when
16 you were growing up too --
17 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Well, I lived in
18 the city.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SHIMSKY: -- that the
20 cars -- that a lot of cars can end up getting
21 into catastrophic situations with, and that
22 has happened in my district.
23 What are we doing to access more money
24 from the federal government to help make sure
168
1 that these various forms of safety upgrades,
2 these signal changes, dealing with some of
3 the challenging topography in our area can
4 have and --
5 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: One thing that we
6 did is we became experts on the Third Track
7 project in Long Island, in knocking out grade
8 crossing eliminations in a single weekend.
9 It had never been done before, at least to my
10 knowledge, in the New York area, and maybe
11 even in the United States. But we were like
12 digging underneath -- closing on the railroad
13 on Friday night and digging a hole under -- a
14 huge, big pathway for cars and humans
15 underneath, and restoring the railroad,
16 pushing in a concrete box so that you had an
17 under-grade crossing.
18 So having had that experience, we
19 would love to spread it all over where
20 appropriate. We do need the money. We go
21 after every dollar at the federal level.
22 I'll give you a specific -- I mean, some
23 specifics on which categories there are and
24 how much New York gets. That's the question,
169
1 are we getting our fair share.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SHIMSKY: Yeah, that
3 would be great to find out for Metro-North.
4 Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
6 Senate.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
8 We're now on to our second round for
9 our two chairs. First, with Authorities,
10 Leroy Comrie.
11 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Three minutes,
13 sorry.
14 SENATOR COMRIE: Ten minutes, I heard.
15 (Laughter.)
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: No, no, no.
17 SENATOR COMRIE: As you indicated
18 earlier, fixing Penn is a priority for all of
19 us New Yorkers, including myself and anybody
20 who wants to see transportation. Clearly,
21 with Vornado's declaring that it can't
22 provide funding, it's shaky on funding -- you
23 had talked earlier about the lack of people
24 coming back, with Senator Schumer now coming
170
1 out against the original plan -- doesn't it
2 make sense to void the GOO {ph} and work with
3 Senator Schumer to immediately prioritize the
4 plan if it gets -- passed muster with the
5 federal government? And how are we going to
6 make that happen?
7 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: So yeah, the answer
8 to any question "Would you work with Senator
9 Schumer," in my case is yes, because he is --
10 you know, he's the guy who makes things
11 happen for New York in the Congress,
12 especially in the transportation money
13 category.
14 Listen, I think I said it earlier, I
15 am -- I think that the priority has to be
16 we've got a certain amount of money from the
17 Legislature for Penn. Now we've got to go
18 whole hog -- you know, all out to get the
19 federal money. That means we need Amtrak and
20 New Jersey Transit to support that.
21 SENATOR COMRIE: I was very
22 disappointed that the Amtrak Gateway plan
23 seems to be another situation of they only
24 want to be able to have Amtrak cars run
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1 through there and not have throughway service
2 or an ability to support all cars. I hope
3 that you can work with Senator Schumer to
4 make a new plan that would incorporate Penn
5 and create access for all systems to be able
6 to work together. It's important for
7 New York, if it's going to remain a financial
8 engine of our country, to have access from
9 all over the country, since people are moving
10 farther and farther out to come back to
11 work --
12 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I agree with you,
13 but right now we're in a race to get the
14 existing Penn renovation going before
15 Metro-North comes in from the Penn Access
16 project. That's the thing that we've got to
17 get going, and we've got to get money for as
18 soon as possible. That is my focus.
19 But I agree with you, we need to make
20 sure that that expansion, when it happens,
21 accommodates through running and other
22 strategies.
23 SENATOR COMRIE: Well, I hope we can
24 get the COO to renegotiate it quickly so that
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1 that can happen.
2 A question on MWBE. I understand
3 you're losing your MWBE czar. And where are
4 you with MWBE, and how are you going to
5 replace someone that has been a historic --
6 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: MTA is a leader on
7 MWBE. We are the number-one state agency by
8 a lot. I think we are a third of the MWBE
9 achievement statewide, of all the state
10 agencies. We give -- we do about a
11 billion dollars a year in contracting with
12 M's and W's and DBE's.
13 And we are -- in addition to what
14 we've already accomplished -- you mentioned
15 Mike Garner, who's going over to work for
16 Mayor Adams. He was the leader. We're going
17 to replace him. But my goal is we need more
18 M and W companies that can fill categories of
19 work that we don't have enough M's and W's
20 in, honestly. So we're hitting the numbers,
21 but we need more participation. That's a
22 priority for me.
23 SENATOR COMRIE: Where are we with the
24 test platforms that were supposed to be put
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1 in, the Times Square, Third Avenue, and at
2 Sutphin Boulevard? The test platforms that
3 were going to be done after the pushing
4 incidents. Have they been designed,
5 implemented?
6 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: We're in -- we're
7 in the preliminary design that will allow us
8 to do the procurements now.
9 Those are -- let me just emphasize,
10 those are so expensive and they're only
11 applicable in a very small portion of our
12 stations because of the structural load that
13 they impose on the platforms. So we're
14 looking -- in the $100 million we put in --
15 the Governor put in her proposal for MTA law
16 enforcement, it includes a ton of other
17 technology innovations to try to keep people
18 off the tracks. That's another thing that
19 we're hard at work on.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry, I have
21 to cut off this --
22 SENATOR COMRIE: I'm sorry, my time is
23 up. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
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1 Assembly.
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We've been
3 joined by Assemblyman De Los Santos.
4 And we go to Assemblyman Burgos for a
5 question.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN BURGOS: Thank you,
7 Madam Chair.
8 Thank you, Chairman and the team, for
9 coming here today.
10 In your testimony you mentioned the
11 bus redesign plan --
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Can you check
13 if your mic is on?
14 ASSEMBLYMAN BURGOS: Can you hear me?
15 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yup.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN BURGOS: You mentioned the
18 bus redesign plan. And I'll tell you, since
19 I'm from a district that has the 6 Train but
20 the overwhelming majority of my district
21 relies on bus service, I appreciate, you
22 know, the effort your team took -- you know,
23 the transparency and the communication.
24 So with that in mind, I do want to
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1 speak a little more on buses. It's my belief
2 that, you know, buses and trains within
3 New York City are very different, not just in
4 the way they operate, but who actually
5 utilizes them. Are you able to provide me a
6 picture of bus service, bus revenue and bus
7 ridership, like peak pandemic versus what
8 we're looking at now?
9 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah. I mean,
10 we're -- you know, our bus ridership numbers
11 are not far off our subway ridership. It's
12 in the low 60 percentile relative to
13 pre-COVID. Our revenue situation on the
14 buses has declined more. We have, honestly,
15 a higher rate of fare evasion on buses.
16 But, you know, as I always say,
17 irrespective of the economics, we've got to
18 make the bus system much better. And the
19 Bronx was a good example. Like a real
20 collaborative, transparent dialogue yielded
21 savings in time for routes that are life or
22 death for people: Can I get to a job? Can I
23 get to a hospital? Can I get to school in a
24 reasonable time frame? And we made some
176
1 progress in collaboration. We're doing it
2 for Brooklyn and Queens now. We've got to
3 make buses run faster. I need people out of
4 the bus lane. I need them out of the bus
5 lane. That's why you're seeing some of the
6 other proposals we have.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN BURGOS: So in that same
8 respect, I know Senator Liu mentioned earlier
9 about the possibility of free buses. And I
10 know you made the comment saying, you know,
11 we don't want the frosting before the cake.
12 And I can appreciate that. But I also don't
13 want to underestimate the value in showing
14 people what a service MTA can be, and how
15 that can even translate to an increase in
16 ridership for pay fares, right, on the
17 subways. So I would love to see how we can
18 work towards that goal.
19 In my last time, I think you mentioned
20 you have about a million people on reduced
21 fares.
22 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN BURGOS: Do we have the
24 data on -- I know they're using bus and
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1 subway. But do we have an idea of how many
2 people on reduced fare are using the buses,
3 in comparison to subways?
4 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: We can -- we can
5 tell you that. I mean, there's no question
6 that you have a lower income profile, broadly
7 speaking, on buses than on subways. I'm sure
8 that will be borne out when we give you the
9 data. But if that's your point, it's well
10 made. And we love to give -- make sure more
11 people are on Fair Fares and that they're
12 getting the discounts that they're entitled
13 to.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN BURGOS: Again, so in the
15 last bit of my time, I think we just have to
16 take that data into account, all the comments
17 you made, obviously, on what people in outer
18 boroughs and lower income rely on bus
19 service. I think we should really genuinely
20 look at the possibility of free bus service,
21 even if it begins as a pilot program in
22 certain boroughs or outer boroughs. But we
23 are not Manhattan. We are not serviced the
24 same way with subways, and I think we should
178
1 look at the buses.
2 Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 To the Senate.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
6 much. I think, for the Senate to close, is
7 Tim Kennedy, our chair of Transportation,
8 three-minute second round.
9 SENATOR KENNEDY: Yeah, thank you
10 again, Chairman. Thank you for your answers.
11 I think it can't be understated the
12 importance and the impact that the workforce
13 has had on the system, particularly over the
14 last few years with the pandemic raging.
15 Those that showed up to make sure that the
16 system continued to move and function for the
17 ridership not only risked their lives but, in
18 many cases, gave their lives.
19 I just would like you to speak to
20 what's happening with this budget and its
21 impact on the workforce, on the members of
22 organized labor, and does this budget give
23 them the support that they need to do their
24 jobs every day?
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1 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: The number-one
2 response to your question is the proposal
3 that the Governor's budget puts on the table
4 would fully fund our existing workforce,
5 making unnecessary layoffs. That's the
6 number-one issue. We all want to avoid that.
7 Layoffs equals service cuts equals the death
8 spiral for transit. Right? So we don't want
9 to be doing that. That's the most important
10 thing.
11 The other is the -- we are using what
12 resources we have to kind of grow our
13 partnership with labor. We have a new safety
14 committee that John Samuelson sits on that is
15 breaking new ground in terms of
16 labor/management collaboration. I think we
17 are both very much of a mind to try to deal
18 with the worker availability consequences of
19 COVID, and I think there's a partnership
20 there. But the bottom line is we want, you
21 know, jobs to be secure. We're reverting
22 some of the contract cleaners, both of the
23 cars and cleaning in the stations, to
24 unionized TWU full-time employees. I think
180
1 we want to be on the same page and our
2 interests are aligned.
3 We do -- I've spoken earlier, like I
4 think we -- you know, it makes sense to look
5 at opportunities to become more productive.
6 But I think they have contributions to make
7 as we figure that out, and we're going to be
8 calling on them, and not just in collective
9 bargaining but in everyday as well.
10 SENATOR KENNEDY: Thank you.
11 And just for the purposes of time, my
12 last question will be around Penn Station
13 Access and the project that broke ground over
14 a month ago. We're already hearing that
15 there may be delays because of Amtrak. Can
16 you speak to the delays? And what is the
17 holdup with Amtrak?
18 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: So the situation is
19 this. Look, East Side Access, now known as
20 Grand Central Madison -- because I don't want
21 the shadow of that failed project to hang on
22 forever to what is actually a positive
23 development for transit in the region -- what
24 we learned with East Side Access is that you
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1 need -- when you need outages -- you need
2 outages, you need access to the track to do
3 work, and you need flaggers and you need
4 other supervisory personnel for Amtrak, which
5 owns the track.
6 That cost the East Side access project
7 probably a billion dollars, because Amtrak
8 couldn't or wouldn't -- and again, I wasn't
9 there for most of this stuff. Work couldn't
10 get done on time, and contractors were told
11 to walk away and delay and delay and delay,
12 and money, money, money.
13 So when we did Penn Access -- and I
14 will just finish this answer -- when we did
15 Penn Access, we insisted that Amtrak sign a
16 commitment to provide outages on a schedule
17 and to provide the workforce to support the
18 work. And notwithstanding that contract
19 commitment, which subjects them to damage
20 claims, they still haven't been able to do it
21 now. I know they're working on it, but it
22 impacts on the project. We can't do work, we
23 can't finish the project. That's what you're
24 hearing about.
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1 I've raised it with the highest levels
2 of Amtrak. They're offering us, you know,
3 some -- some new strategies for getting the
4 work done. The time that we've lost, that's
5 still being negotiated.
6 SENATOR KENNEDY: We expect Amtrak to
7 be better partners.
8 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: We are hoping. The
9 heart's in the right place, but they have
10 struggled to let work get done so projects
11 can finish on time and on budget.
12 That didn't happen on the Long Island
13 Rail Road, because we controlled the Third
14 Track. It was us and the railroad, and they
15 gave us the outages and they gave us the
16 personnel, and we finished $100 million under
17 budget.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
19 Assembly.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
21 Palmesano.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Yes.
23 Thank you, Mr. Chairman, good to see
24 you again. I also wanted to echo what
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1 Senator O'Mara said about coming out to see
2 Alstom and visiting them this August so you
3 can see the {inaudible} we have right there
4 in Hornell and the critical workforce they
5 have that is --
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I'm not --
7 Phil, excuse me. Can you pull the mic
8 closer?
9 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I heard you. I
10 heard you.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: -- the
12 critical projects that they continue to do
13 for both the MTA and other customers.
14 With that being said, I know you've
15 seen the significant investments Alstom has
16 made there to deliver projects for the MTA.
17 They're the subcontractor on the R211
18 project. They've invested $40 million in the
19 steel car body shell there. They also have
20 the Amtrak high-speed rail contract and
21 others. Given that, I want to kind of pivot
22 to the next generation of railcars for the
23 city, the R262 contract.
24 What is the time frame, from your
184
1 perspective, of that being let? How many
2 cars are you talking about? And also I know
3 that there's an option for more cars,
4 430-plus cars for the R211 contract. If
5 that's exercised, will that delay the R262?
6 And also -- you can start with that.
7 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Okay. So I don't
8 recall the numbers, but it's a lot. It's
9 multi-billion-dollars. The 262s, you're
10 talking about the next generation of IRT
11 cars. That's the A division; those are the
12 numbered lines.
13 We need them. And we want to get
14 them. And we wanted to use a New York --
15 ideally, a New York company, like Alstom.
16 And Kawasaki does a bunch of their work --
17 not as much, but they're also, for
18 manufacturing railcars, a significant
19 New York player.
20 We would love to use it. The question
21 is, is the price affordable? And we are in
22 the middle of negotiations about that. My --
23 my team's job is to make sure that the
24 numbers can be supported and justified
185
1 compared to what the rest of the world is
2 paying for railcars.
3 So that's where we are, honestly.
4 Yes, the -- our options with other contracts,
5 depending on the price for -- that we are
6 ultimately able to exercise for the 262s,
7 it's conceivable that other contract options
8 could be alternatives. But the main thing is
9 what are the terms and the schedule and the
10 budget and the cost for that Alstom or any
11 other manufacturer is able to offer, and that
12 is -- that procurement discussion is still
13 underway.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: So as far as a
15 time frame, you don't really -- you can't
16 really give a time frame --
17 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Well, the time
18 frame is either they'll come to a reasonable
19 agreement or there won't be a contract.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Gotcha. Fair
21 enough. Thank you, sir.
22 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah, that's --
23 that's the real time frame. Just telling you
24 the emis {ph}, as we say in Brooklyn.
186
1 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Thanks again
2 for coming. Really do appreciate it.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 Assemblywoman Gonzalez-Rojas.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GONZALEZ-ROJAS: Thank
6 you so much for being here for many hours.
7 Earlier Chairman Kennedy referred to
8 the six-minute bus service, and last year I
9 sent a budget letter advocating for that
10 service and we're continuing to do so as a
11 full package, as you're aware of, the Fix the
12 MTA package.
13 But to clarify, the six-minute service
14 proposal was not 24 hours, as much as I'd
15 love it to be 24 hours. We were really
16 looking at six-minute service between 5 a.m.
17 and 9 p.m. during the week and 8 a.m. to
18 10 p.m. during the weekends, with an
19 estimated cost of 250 million.
20 How does this change the
21 infrastructure concerns and barriers that you
22 relayed earlier?
23 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Listen, I --
24 I've -- the issue for us is that -- I'm
187
1 pushing back a little only against the idea
2 that the frequency and reliability of the bus
3 service is based on how many buses we put out
4 there. It is in large part based on the
5 traffic conditions that buses encounter. And
6 again, as we're debating where to take the
7 transit system, I just want that to remain
8 front and center.
9 I very much respect the idea, I love
10 the idea of frequency and more service and
11 more service. We have to, one, solve the
12 budget gap and, two, be honest about the
13 conditions that are preventing buses from
14 getting around the city. It's congestion,
15 it's folks of goodwill -- and some not, but
16 mostly goodwill -- parking in the bus lanes,
17 parking in the bus stops.
18 We have a plan on the table with all
19 of you, in the Governor's proposal, to
20 actually allow for camera enforcement, not
21 just of the bus lanes but also of people who
22 are lingering in bus stops. Not one -- not a
23 drop-off, but staying more than five minutes.
24 So I want to make sure we don't lose
188
1 sight of attacking those problems as we
2 figure it out. And I will respond to you on
3 the six-minute -- the numbers impact of
4 six-minute service on the time frames that
5 you've asked for.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GONZALEZ-ROJAS: Thank
7 you.
8 And I know that fiscal solvency of the
9 agency has been an ongoing issue. Given that
10 the internet marketplace sales tax generates
11 a total of 320 million -- about 100 million
12 from New York State and 170 million from
13 New York City -- might this be a source of
14 revenue that could be directly remitted for
15 the purposes of investing in improvements in
16 service?
17 And again, you're hearing a lot about
18 bus service from the New York City members
19 because it is so vital to our communities.
20 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: All right, I
21 don't -- I'm going to let Kevin answer that,
22 but I'll just say one thing. When you think
23 about the -- what's causing our drop in
24 ridership, which has the fiscal consequences,
189
1 the internet is the thing. Right? It's work
2 from home, facilitated by the internet teams,
3 Zoom and so on.
4 So there is some kind of a -- you
5 know, upfront I'd say there's a connection
6 that you're pointing --
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GONZALEZ-ROJAS: So it
8 should just go right back into the system.
9 MTA CFO WILLENS: The internet
10 marketplace tax that we receive both from the
11 state and the city is by law dedicated into
12 the capital lockbox for the capital program.
13 And we have committed fully against that
14 revenue for the projects.
15 So the $11 billion in capital
16 commitments that we executed in 2022 is in
17 large part being supported by that internet
18 marketplace tax. So it is -- it's going to
19 good projects, no longer -- not available for
20 the operating budget, either by law or in a
21 practical sense.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
23 Next, Assemblyman Cunningham.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN CUNNINGHAM: Good
190
1 afternoon. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and
2 for your team, for all the incredible work
3 you do to keep New York City moving. And
4 also Will for always being a quick responder
5 to our emails and inquiries.
6 I represent the 43rd Assembly District
7 in Brooklyn, New York, which is Flatbush,
8 Prospect Lefferts Gardens and Crown Heights.
9 Recently we've had a couple of issues.
10 Number one, our constituents are most
11 concerned with safety, reliability, and
12 affordability. From a safety perspective,
13 Winthrop Train Station has recently made news
14 because of the nurse who was thrown acid on,
15 as well as a woman -- a young woman, 18 years
16 old, who was sexually assaulted on New Year's
17 Eve. Both instances went to the toll worker
18 behind the toll booth, and both times they
19 were told to contact law enforcement.
20 What's the MTA's responsibility, the
21 workers' responsibility to report crimes that
22 happen that they're aware of?
23 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I -- honestly, that
24 doesn't -- doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
191
1 I'm happy to look into that one. They should
2 be able to help somebody who's been the
3 victim of crime as much as possible. At the
4 end of the day, we do rely on the NYPD, who
5 polices the system to manage, you know,
6 situations, crime situations.
7 But one of our goals -- I'll just say
8 one other thing -- is to bring the people who
9 are in the booths, we have almost zero
10 transactions taking place at the booths now.
11 We want them out of the booths, and the union
12 has agreed. So they're going to become
13 stronger participants in creating a safe and
14 friendly environment -- directions, OMNY
15 help, vending machines, and better eyes and
16 ears in the station. So I hope they'll
17 provide a more effective tool in the future.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, and
19 just to be clear, I don't expect the MTA
20 worker to get involved in an active crime or
21 to stop an active crime. But when a crime is
22 reported to them, to have some level of
23 responsiveness beyond "Contact the NYPD."
24 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Absolutely.
192
1 ASSEMBLYMAN CUNNINGHAM: On the
2 affordability piece, I know you've mentioned
3 throughout the hearing a 2 percent increase
4 on fare increases. It sounds like the number
5 is, what, 4 percent, based on numbers you've
6 projected, 4 percent and 5.5 percent? Just
7 wondering what the precedence for that
8 drastic hike is.
9 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Sure. The 4
10 percent -- it was 4 percent every two years,
11 so it was like 2 percent a year. That's what
12 you heard me say.
13 The 5 percent that the Governor's
14 proposed just catches us up -- doesn't all
15 the way, but catches up a little bit for the
16 increases that got missed, that annual cycle,
17 during COVID when we were trying to get
18 people back to normal life. So that's what
19 the 5 percent adds up to, as if we had
20 continued the 2 percent a year.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN CUNNINGHAM: Thank you for
22 your answer.
23 I would be remiss if I didn't say that
24 24 percent of residents throughout the State
193
1 of New York, including the city, still have
2 difficulty making essential visits like
3 doctor's appointments and other things. So
4 just wanted to kind of add that to the
5 variables of people getting back on the train
6 and people who still can't get on a train to
7 get to vital services.
8 Thank you so much for your time.
9 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Thank you.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
11 Assemblyman Ra, five minutes.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you very much,
13 Chair, and your whole team. Thank you for
14 your attentiveness today and for being here.
15 I know it's been a long morning into the
16 afternoon here.
17 So it's the first day of budget
18 hearings, so I want to start off on a
19 positive note and certainly say thank you as
20 we've gotten through -- I think it's no
21 secret I've been -- was a skeptic throughout
22 the Third Track project, but I think the new
23 stations look great. And, you know, there
24 was a lot of investment made into our local
194
1 communities that will hopefully help maybe
2 get some of those riders back that we're
3 hoping for as people return to the office and
4 all of that.
5 So thank you for that. And certainly
6 I hope we can continue to dialogue about
7 any -- you know, any types of items that are
8 outstanding out there, representations that
9 may have been made to the communities by 3TC
10 and making sure those are followed through
11 on, because I know it is a concern in some of
12 the communities.
13 I did want to go back, though, to the
14 MTA payroll tax question. A number of my
15 colleagues have brought it up. Certainly I
16 appreciate the relative number of businesses
17 that it's going to impact. But as I'm sure
18 you can imagine, you know, this budget, when
19 you look at it as a whole, there's a
20 potential minimum -- a minimum wage increase,
21 some of our local governments are looking at
22 monies being intercepted. And as my
23 colleague mentioned earlier, a lot of our
24 municipalities do pay it, particularly on
195
1 Long Island where we tend to have some larger
2 municipalities, as opposed to the rest of the
3 state.
4 So I'm just wondering, playing devil's
5 advocate a little bit here -- I'm sure you've
6 seen this in the news, and the question out
7 there is how do we get from here -- suppose
8 we do this whole -- you know, this whole
9 proposal, the MTA tax, the additional money
10 from casinos, the efficiencies internally to
11 the MTA, and certainly your fare plans
12 included in that, where does that take us in
13 the years to come? Because over the course
14 of time, every decade or so we tend to end up
15 in the type of situation we're in now. And
16 maybe it's for a different reason, but we
17 tend to end up here where there's a deficit
18 that we need to come up with some new revenue
19 stream to plug.
20 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Listen, you know,
21 this is an essential service. And our job at
22 the MTA is to make sure that we can provide
23 it. I don't apologize for the fact that we
24 come, in the wake of a pandemic where we've
196
1 lost a third of our ridership, we come to the
2 Legislature with the Governor and say, We
3 need a new funding model. That's not proof
4 of anything other than the pandemic happened
5 and our way of life has been seemingly --
6 maybe not permanently, but significantly
7 affected over a much longer period than just
8 the initial pandemic.
9 So listen, you know, the debate is on.
10 I respect all sides. But I will say this.
11 Long Island, because of that Third Track
12 project, because of Grand Central Madison,
13 is -- we're putting $300 million more in the
14 years to come on the operating budget of
15 Long Island to provide that extra 40 percent
16 of service enabled by the Third Track. I
17 don't think it's unreasonable to ask the
18 businesses, who are for the first time
19 getting reverse commuting, which is going to
20 enable them to have incredible reach in terms
21 of their workforce, to participate in that.
22 Just as I also don't feel bad about asking
23 businesses who are letting people come in,
24 for good reason, you know, one to three days
197
1 a week, to help in a small way, for a small
2 portion, to shoulder some of the costs of the
3 MTA continuing to provide seven-day-a-week
4 quality service.
5 So I think it is a balancing. I very
6 much respect all sides of the debate. But
7 when 5 percent of the businesses, only the
8 very largest businesses -- and given the
9 other factors that I have just kind of tried
10 to enumerate within your time, I
11 understand -- I think this is a reasonable,
12 balanced proposal. It's not what happened
13 with the first PMT before the Legislature
14 carved it back and created a lot of
15 exemptions for small business, and it only
16 affects a very, very small portion of
17 business, the folks who are really doing the
18 reverse commuting, because they have the
19 white collar, high-end workers who are
20 allowed to reverse commute. That's the
21 reality.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: And I'll just say,
23 you know -- I will leave some time on the
24 clock here. But as we go forward, you know,
198
1 I look forward to seeing what that impact is,
2 now that the construction is over with the
3 Third Track, seeing what the numbers look
4 like in terms of the reverse commute and
5 people taking advantage of that, as well as
6 all the other new changes that have been
7 there.
8 So thank you.
9 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Thank you.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
11 So I'm the last questioner. And very
12 briefly, because I know everybody is --
13 you're looking to get on the train.
14 Just a follow-up question about the
15 capital plan and borrowing costs. As we all
16 know, the cost of borrowing has been raising
17 over this past year in particular. How much
18 of an impact is this having on the MTA
19 capital program? And now that interest rates
20 are higher, is that assumed within the
21 capital plan? And will the capital plan be
22 able to be completed without additional
23 funding?
24 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: So the capital
199
1 plan, one, I'm going to let Kevin answer it,
2 because he's really an expert on this,
3 spending his career in the municipal bond
4 business.
5 But the capital plan will be
6 completed, provided we get the revenue from
7 congestion pricing. Everybody -- you know, I
8 know that there's always differences of
9 opinion on that. But that's the last
10 30 percent of our capital plan, and we're
11 counting on it. And I am moving forward,
12 albeit at what sometimes feels like a glacial
13 pace with the authorities in Washington who
14 supervise environmental reviews of big
15 projects. So we're moving forward, but that
16 is the -- that's the linchpin of us being
17 able to complete the whole capital plan.
18 But as to the percentages, Kevin?
19 MTA CFO WILLENS: Yeah, so a couple of
20 things. Certainly higher interest rates are
21 not helpful when you're borrowing money. But
22 that said, you know, north of 90 percent of
23 the debt that we've issued in the past is
24 fixed rate to maturity. So those costs on
200
1 all that debt have -- are not going up.
2 As a matter of fact, part of the debt
3 plan -- and what we're doing is bringing debt
4 costs down by about 300 million a year
5 throughout the financial plan, through the
6 debt restructuring, which will reduce the
7 costs but not impact the future. For
8 example, we just did two large refundings
9 that even in this higher rate environment we
10 were able to generate 150 million of savings
11 that are helping to achieve the plan.
12 Currently, based on current interest
13 rates, we -- we have the financial plan,
14 we -- it has been updated for those rates,
15 and so the capital investment that we've got
16 in there is affordable in the new rate
17 assumptions. And, you know, again, we've
18 brought debt service down to 15 percent of
19 the budget and see that pretty much staying
20 flat for the next four to five years.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
22 And I'm going to have a question from
23 one of my colleagues who isn't a member of
24 either of these committees. So let me just
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1 read it, and I'd like a response.
2 You've said that it would cost $350
3 million a year to make up for the revenue
4 that a fare hike of up to $3 would generate.
5 We've seen estimates, however, that show that
6 the subway and bus fare hikes alone, absent
7 tolls and commuter rail, would actually bring
8 in $245 million a year, not $350, with a
9 breakdown of 114 million in '23, 193 million
10 in '24, 313 million in '25, and 360 million
11 in '26.
12 I don't know whether these numbers are
13 accurate or not, but can you clarify the
14 difference between what I've just read and
15 what you've said?
16 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: I mean, Kevin will
17 give you the numbers that we have at hand.
18 But it's -- this is one of those issues that
19 has been asked about enough that it really
20 bears us writing to you, clarifying what the
21 revenue impact of the proposed, you know,
22 5 percent fare hike is.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: That would be
24 helpful, right. So if you could just give us
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1 the brief thing and then the more detailed --
2 MTA CFO WILLENS: The 350 includes
3 subways, buses, commuter rail and bridge and
4 tunnel. So that's the revenue from all of
5 them. We can give you a further breakdown by
6 mode of --
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So then if you
8 could give us the breakdown on those
9 increases year by year, going out --
10 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Yeah.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: -- for the next
12 handful of years, and we'll make sure to
13 distribute it to all of our colleagues.
14 And I believe -- so I believe that
15 that is the end of questioning. We
16 appreciate your being here to lead off for
17 our budget hearings.
18 And just as you leave, the next
19 witness will be Commissioner of DOT Marie
20 Therese Dominguez.
21 MTA CHAIR LIEBER: Thank you.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
23 much.
24 (Brief recess taken.)
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1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We welcome our
2 next witness, NYSDOT Commissioner Marie
3 Therese Dominguez.
4 And, Commissioner, as we mentioned
5 earlier, we do have your testimony. There
6 will be a 10-minute clock. And then once we
7 go to questions, just keep an eye --
8 colleagues, just a reminder, keep an eye on
9 the clock in terms of questions and answers
10 before it gets to zero.
11 Colleagues, can we just have some
12 quiet?
13 Commissioner, whenever you're ready.
14 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Can you
15 hear me? Okay, great.
16 Good afternoon, Chairpersons Krueger,
17 Weinstein, Kennedy, Magnarelli, and members
18 of the Legislative Finance, Ways and Means
19 and Transportation Committees, as well as all
20 members of the State Legislature that have
21 joined us here today.
22 On behalf of Governor Kathy Hochul,
23 I'd like to thank you for inviting me here to
24 talk about the State Department of
204
1 Transportation, our people, the communities
2 that we serve, and how the work that we do
3 makes a real and positive difference in the
4 lives of all New Yorkers.
5 I'd like to first take a moment to
6 salute our dedicated DOT workforce,
7 particularly our snow and ice team, who work
8 tirelessly to make sure that our roads and
9 bridges are safe. This season alone, they
10 have cleared more than 3.4 million lane miles
11 of roads. As you know, our state was hit
12 with a record-setting lake-effect snow in
13 November that brought seven feet of snow to
14 Buffalo and the North Country, only to be
15 followed by another historic and tragic storm
16 in December which brought 37 hours of
17 treacherous blizzard conditions.
18 During both events, hundreds of
19 dedicated public servants at DOT from across
20 the state worked 24/7 for days on end to help
21 clear the snow and restore the roadways. I
22 was in Buffalo for both storms, and I
23 personally want to thank the DOT team and
24 everyone who assisted them for their service.
205
1 It was really heroic.
2 With me today are two members of our
3 DOT team from the Capital Region who were
4 deployed to Buffalo: Justin Grimes, who was
5 in Buffalo managing contractor support in our
6 staging area, and Gary Casso {ph}, who
7 performed hauling operations.
8 Gentlemen? Right behind me
9 (pointing).
10 (Applause.)
11 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Both of
12 them worked through the storm, all the way
13 through New Year's Eve. And this was truly
14 an all-hands-on-deck operation. And Jason
15 and Gary are just two of the hundreds of
16 dedicated DOT personnel helped Buffalo and
17 the North Country recover from this most
18 recent storm.
19 I want to thank them again, and the
20 entire team, for their outstanding service.
21 But DOT is not just in the snow and
22 ice business. Simply put, DOT is part of
23 every community in New York State. And
24 thanks to Governor Hochul's leadership and
206
1 your continued commitment to making smart and
2 significant investments in our transportation
3 infrastructure, New York is investing more in
4 its infrastructure than at any time in our
5 history. The Governor's $32.8 billion
6 five-year capital plan is historic, with the
7 projects that we are advancing representing
8 more than just concrete and steel -- they are
9 investments to better the lives of
10 individuals and communities across New York.
11 This last year DOT has put these dollars to
12 work to carry out the Governor's vision of
13 enhancing the quality of life for all
14 New Yorkers, by making our communities more
15 livable, more walkable, more bikeable, and
16 certainly better places to live, work and
17 raise a family.
18 The Executive Budget continues the
19 unprecedented state support for local
20 municipal governments to renew and modernize
21 their roads and bridges. Our projects, large
22 and small, are transformational to the people
23 we serve. This year DOT is advancing a
24 number of signature projects to reconnect and
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1 revitalize communities, projects like the
2 Kensington and Cross-Bronx Expressways,
3 Interstate 81, the Livingston Avenue Bridge,
4 and Hunts Point. These are multigenerational
5 investments that will fundamentally change
6 for the better places like East Buffalo, the
7 South Bronx, South Syracuse, and the City of
8 Albany.
9 So despite the challenges of extreme
10 weather and climate change and the ups and
11 downs of the economy, inflation, and the
12 supply chain, DOT remains fully committed to
13 the implementation of the Governor's capital
14 plan.
15 Over the past year we've had great
16 success in executing on the first year of the
17 capital plan, completing more than 430 bridge
18 rehabilitations and replacements on the state
19 system, and funding more than 150 projects on
20 the local bridge network. Direct support for
21 local roads and bridges has increased to more
22 than $6.1 billion over five years for the
23 capital plan -- an increase of nearly
24 $2.5 billion from the previous five-year
208
1 capital plan, with $1 billion alone invested
2 in local aid for the programs in the last
3 year.
4 This level of investment in our local
5 highway and bridge programs is truly historic
6 and unprecedented.
7 The five-year capital plan also made
8 critical investments in aviation, in freight
9 rail, in transit, including $230 million to
10 enhance nine regional airports upstate and
11 $76.4 million for freight rail projects. The
12 plan also supports passenger rail service,
13 providing $44 million annually for four
14 routes, including supporting expanded
15 passenger service on the Ethan Allen and
16 Maple Leaf lines.
17 Here's an example of what DOT is
18 working to accomplish this year, in 2023:
19 1,353 lane miles of pavement on state
20 roads will be constructed or improved;
21 589 total state bridges will be
22 rehabilitated or replaced;
23 352 projects, at a total construction
24 cost of almost $2.9 billion, will be let;
209
1 And more than $8 billion will support
2 transit systems statewide, which will be
3 critical to our climate, providing
4 alternative modes of transportation to the
5 public.
6 We're also making key investments in
7 safety and connectivity, which are
8 cornerstones of the Governor's transportation
9 vision for the future. Which is why we're
10 building off our decade of experience
11 implementing Complete Streets projects
12 statewide.
13 New legislation signed by the Governor
14 in December encourages localities to do the
15 same. And this year, DOT will also be
16 developing a statewide Active Transportation
17 Plan to further our efforts toward enhancing
18 safety for all users of the transportation
19 network.
20 Multi-modal transportation also plays
21 a key role in reducing our carbon footprint
22 under the Climate Leadership and Community
23 Protection Act. DOT played a key role in
24 helping develop the Scoping Plan, and we're
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1 committed to the recommendations put forward
2 by the Climate Action Council in the final
3 plan.
4 Over the next five years, New York
5 State will receive $170 million from the IIJA
6 for the National Electric Vehicle
7 Infrastructure program, or the NEVI program.
8 Under this program, DOT is taking the lead to
9 help increase the electric vehicle charging
10 infrastructure on our state's interstates.
11 Smart climate policies also mean
12 building a resilient infrastructure for the
13 future, as the more we invest now in
14 hardening our infrastructure, the more we
15 will be able to withstand the effects of
16 extreme weather on our roads, bridges, and
17 certainly our culverts. At DOT we are
18 currently building infrastructure designed to
19 last at least 75 years for our bridges.
20 To ensure longevity, we use the most
21 resilient building materials available,
22 including high-performance concrete on our
23 roads and stainless-steel reinforcement on
24 our bridges.
211
1 Knowing the weather extremes, we must
2 prepare for, we do that across the board.
3 And a good example of that is two Van Wyck
4 Expressway viaducts that we just constructed
5 in Queens, which will accommodate a
6 128-degree temperature change over the course
7 of one year.
8 And with the passage of the
9 Environmental Bond Act, more opportunities
10 will be available across the state to make
11 our transportation system more resilient and
12 more sustainable.
13 What I've laid out today is just a
14 small sample of the work our team at DOT
15 undertakes each and every day. The
16 operations and maintenance of our
17 transportation system, snow and ice,
18 resiliency and climate, executing and
19 constructing the investments in roads,
20 bridges, aviation, trains, buses, bikes,
21 pedestrian safety -- all with equity and
22 accessibility to transportation for all --
23 these are all elements of our critical safety
24 mission that NYSDOT carries out each and
212
1 every day.
2 But I saved the best for last -- the
3 thousands who work for DOT, the dedicated
4 women and men who wear many hats and face
5 unique challenges every day. Over the last
6 few years, DOT staff have confronted and
7 overcome every challenge that has been put in
8 front of them, COVID and otherwise. Our
9 people are our most valuable asset and truly
10 what I call our "secret sauce." Their work
11 represents the best in public service, and I
12 count myself lucky to be a member of Team
13 DOT.
14 Thank you again for the opportunity to
15 be here today, and I'm happy to answer your
16 questions.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you,
18 Commissioner.
19 And we go to our chair of the
20 Assembly's Transportation Committee,
21 Assemblyman Magnarelli.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Is it on now?
23 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Okay.
213
1 Commissioner, thank you very much for
2 being here. Always good to see you. And I
3 want to also thank all the workers at DOT, as
4 you have so said eloquently today, including
5 Jason and Gary, who I think just left.
6 (Laughter.)
7 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: But I do
8 thank them all for all the hard work that
9 they do, and sometimes very dangerous work
10 too.
11 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Commissioner,
13 the Executive proposes 6.97 billion for the
14 second year of the five-year, $32.8 billion
15 DOT capital plan, an increase of
16 $326 million, or 4.9 percent above the first
17 year of the capital plan.
18 What percent of the roads and bridges
19 are currently in a state of good repair
20 statewide? And has this metric decreased
21 over the past year?
22 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Currently
23 we have about 57 percent of the roads
24 throughout the state in good to excellent
214
1 condition, and about 74 percent of the
2 bridges. And so with this level of
3 investment, we expect that that percentage
4 will go up. Given the level of investment
5 that this state, the Executive and the
6 Legislature have put forward over the course
7 of this steady five-year plan, we expect
8 those percentages to go up. And we've
9 already seen it happening.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: So you're
11 expecting this will help matters, basically.
12 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Okay. Is
14 there a further level of investment that the
15 state should be making to make sure that
16 these roads and bridges are safe?
17 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I think,
18 given the record level of investment that the
19 state has put forward for this five-year
20 capital plan, it truly is extraordinary on
21 several different fronts.
22 One, it's $6.1 billion more than we've
23 seen in the past. And when we really
24 compare, it increases the plan levels by
215
1 about 9.4 billion, or about 40 percent from
2 the previous five-year plan.
3 And what we're really trying to do is
4 leverage the incredible investment that the
5 state has made with the federal investment
6 that we have through the IIJA. And matching
7 those two funding streams, that's how we came
8 to the 32.8 billion for our five-year capital
9 plan.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Does the
11 Executive Budget incorporate funding from the
12 IRA, the Inflation Reduction Act, into this
13 budget? You're telling us it does, right?
14 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: It
15 incorporates -- the IRA portions of that
16 are -- there's provisions that -- what this
17 incorporates -- let me be clear.
18 What this incorporates is the
19 Bipartisan Infrastructure legislation, or the
20 IIJA, whatever you want to call it. It's the
21 transportation bill. And that has the direct
22 formula funding that governs state DOTS
23 across the nation. For New York, ours went
24 up from 36 percent to about 40 percent. So
216
1 we matched that level of funding with the
2 state investment.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Okay, I
4 couldn't understand the last part of what you
5 said. The -- so that 33 percent, or
6 40 percent -- say it again.
7 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: It
8 goes -- the 40 percent of funding that we got
9 from the IIJA has been matched with the state
10 investment --
11 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: With the
12 city --
13 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: And those
14 two capital investment figures comprise the
15 32.8 billion for five years.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Okay. And so
17 you're administering these funds that are
18 coming in this way.
19 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: This is a DOT
21 function.
22 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes. Per
23 the MOU that --
24 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: You're the
217
1 person I go to when I have questions on this.
2 Okay.
3 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: But we're
4 administering it based on the MOU that the
5 Legislature agreed to last year for the
6 five-year capital plan.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: You mentioned
8 in your remarks Hunts Point, Route 17,
9 Kensington Expressway, 81. Okay. Are all of
10 these mega -- the Livingston Avenue Bridge,
11 which is very important to me. Are all of
12 these projects progressing favorably at this
13 point?
14 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes, sir,
15 they are.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Just a plain
17 yes, they are. Okay.
18 How does DOT ensure -- also going to
19 another thing that we've talked about before,
20 how does DOT ensure that bike and pedestrian
21 infrastructure is included in state road and
22 bridge projects? I held a hearing here a few
23 months back, and I'm still looking for
24 answers on just how far we mandate that these
218
1 things go.
2 But I think more on a state level, I
3 think the leader has to be the state, the
4 DOT, on most of these projects. So how are
5 you incorporating walkability, bikeability,
6 et cetera, into, you know, these street
7 projects?
8 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So I'm
9 happy to say DOT's been implementing the
10 state law on Complete Streets, which was
11 passed about a decade ago. And with the new
12 legislation that the Legislature passed and
13 the Governor signed into law last year, what
14 that does is give the local governments
15 additional flexibility to do Complete Streets
16 projects.
17 This last year alone -- I can give you
18 some statistics here -- with projects on
19 Complete Streets elements that we completed
20 as the State DOT, we had about 1266 ADA ramps
21 that were -- that are in the process of being
22 installed, 166 miles of bike lane
23 improvements, 27 miles of sidewalks and
24 shared-use paths, and about 453 other
219
1 elements for pedestrian improvements.
2 I think the bottom line, sir, in
3 answer to your question, is like how do we
4 actually be a leader to make sure that
5 everyone has opportunities to learn and grow
6 on the Complete Streets elements. And in
7 answer to your question, one of the things
8 that you and I have talked about is how we
9 can better leverage the Cornell Local Roads
10 program that we sponsor for all DPWs,
11 highway, county, municipalities, to actually
12 take advantage of learning all about
13 Complete Streets, what those elements are.
14 And then again --
15 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: So is
16 there -- I don't mean to interrupt you --
17 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Sorry.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: -- and I just
19 did, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
20 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I just
21 think it's an opportunity to make sure
22 everybody has access now that the legislation
23 passed, and local governments can also take
24 advantage of this need.
220
1 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: So this is an
2 education part of what you're trying to do.
3 Okay, is there anything in the budget that
4 funds this education process?
5 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes --
6 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: How do I get
7 it out to local governments, to highway
8 departments?
9 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: There's
10 money in the Executive Budget that's been put
11 forward, recognizing that the legislation
12 that was passed for Complete Streets last
13 year becomes enacted at the end of this year.
14 We're going to -- the Executive put
15 forward about $10 million to help plan for
16 additional Complete Streets work. I would
17 look at that as an opportunity to really not
18 only do education, but also design and
19 execute on some additional opportunities
20 moving forward.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: To be a
22 little parochial about my own area, so how is
23 81 doing?
24 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: 81 is
221
1 presently -- as you know, we've got a --
2 we're under litigation. And with that, I
3 can't really talk about the litigation.
4 But that said, we were -- the judge in
5 the case did allow us to move forward with
6 our first contract, so that's been issued.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: I haven't
8 read the article yet today, but I saw
9 something in the news about $10 million. It
10 doesn't sound like a lot of money, but
11 something's been let for $10 million?
12 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: What's
13 been -- no, I think what you were reading
14 today was perhaps maybe the housing
15 initiative for Pioneer Homes, that is
16 obviously smack in the middle of the
17 community that we're looking to serve best,
18 as a result of the community grid option.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Thank you.
20 I'm looking forward to seeing what happens.
21 Another part of this -- that we have
22 talked about in the past is the capital plan
23 allocating monies for transit, rail,
24 aviation, et cetera. I was in a meeting last
222
1 week, and you know how we have talked in the
2 past about freight trains and passenger
3 trains and making sure that passenger trains
4 can get to one place from another relatively
5 on time. And I was told that sidings are
6 being torn up and done away with by CSX.
7 Are you familiar with anything like
8 that?
9 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I'm not,
10 but I'm happy to look into it.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Okay. I am
12 too. But I appreciate that.
13 I'm concerned that we do everything we
14 possibly can through the DOT to make sure
15 that passenger rail is enhanced. Without
16 taking away from our freight as well, which I
17 feel is also very important. But rail is one
18 way to help deal with climate change, if we
19 can get more people on rail.
20 Thank you.
21 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I agree
22 with you.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: I'll reserve
24 for my second time around. Thank you.
223
1 Thank you.
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
3 To the Senate now.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
5 And to our chair of Transportation,
6 Tim Kennedy, 10 minutes.
7 SENATOR KENNEDY: Thank you,
8 Chairwoman.
9 And Commissioner, welcome. Good to
10 see you again.
11 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Good to
12 see you, sir.
13 SENATOR KENNEDY: Thank you again for
14 your leadership. Thank you for your
15 testimony here today.
16 I want to start where you began,
17 talking about the storm. My hometown of
18 Buffalo ravaged. Forty-seven people lost
19 their lives -- at least -- during that
20 horrific weather event in Buffalo.
21 I want to recognize again those
22 workers that are here with you today, and
23 those that are not, for being out there in
24 the elements.
224
1 Can you talk about that storm, and can
2 you speak to how you feel the Department of
3 Transportation's response was during that
4 storm and what we can do moving forward to
5 make our response better.
6 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I have to
7 start off by saying that my heart really goes
8 out to the families of those who actually
9 lost a loved one during the storm.
10 You know, I was on the ground -- I
11 have to, you know -- sir, you're from
12 Buffalo. When people from Buffalo
13 characterize it as something that they've
14 never ever seen before and they compare it to
15 being worse than the Blizzard of '77, that's
16 their perspective. And certainly they live
17 that. But I have to say, given the severity
18 of the storm, it truly was a
19 once-in-a-generation storm in every technical
20 sense of the word.
21 And what I mean by that, it was the
22 longest, most sustained blizzard below
23 5,000 feet of elevation in the history of the
24 United States. So basically this is
225
1 record-setting on so many different levels.
2 There was zero visibility for
3 37 hours. And it's hard to conceptualize
4 actually what that means, but the weather was
5 just incredible to deal with.
6 SENATOR KENNEDY: Sure. And,
7 Commissioner, we recognize that this was a
8 historic weather event. We also know, as you
9 mentioned in your testimony, it wasn't on its
10 own. A month earlier we had a seven-foot
11 snow event. These are becoming more and more
12 commonplace with the climate change that
13 we're seeing.
14 So one thing that we've done is
15 requested a response for an assessment of all
16 relevant partners in the response to that
17 event and how we can be better moving
18 forward. We were looking for recommendations
19 for the future from every relevant entity.
20 DOT is no different. So we look forward to
21 those continuing conversations with you and
22 your team.
23 One issue that came to light through
24 this particular event was the fact that there
226
1 are no gates or gantries to enter the 33,
2 Kensington Expressway. There are on the 90;
3 we implemented those about a decade ago or so
4 through the previous administration, the DOT,
5 the Thruway Authority partnership.
6 I want to see what your thoughts are
7 on adding those gates to the 33 and
8 Kensington and other roadways as well.
9 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: As you
10 noted, Senator, we have definitely installed
11 gates on various portions of the state
12 highway system in and around Buffalo.
13 The 33 and the 198 are a little bit
14 more challenging, I'll say, because they're
15 part of a very intricate local road network.
16 But we'd like to -- the city has definitely
17 raised the issue. I know the City Council
18 has asked directly for that. So we look
19 forward to working with the city to see what
20 the opportunities are there.
21 As you know, there's hospitals in and
22 around that area, so I think we have to have
23 a very thoughtful review about how do we
24 actually -- because I understand exactly what
227
1 the concerns are.
2 SENATOR KENNEDY: So you're open to
3 the additional --
4 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Oh,
5 absolutely. Well, I'm open to having the --
6 to make sure that we look at it and see what
7 the possible solutions could be.
8 SENATOR KENNEDY: Of course. Great.
9 Thank you.
10 You and I have discussed the Limousine
11 Task Force and the various pieces of safety
12 reforms that this Legislature has passed,
13 signed into law by the Governor, and
14 implemented here in New York State. The
15 state budget only includes one proposal from
16 that Limousine Task Force, expanding the
17 seizure of faulty vehicles to include all
18 commercial motor vehicles.
19 Is there a reason why the remainder of
20 those recommendations were not included in
21 the budget? And what are your thoughts on
22 including them in the final budget
23 legislation that we put forward?
24 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So,
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1 Senator, I very much appreciate the question.
2 And with pending legislation, I'm not going
3 to be able to comment further on it, but
4 recognize that the work of the task force was
5 indeed very thorough, and I very much
6 appreciate the opportunity to work with the
7 members of the task force to make those
8 recommendations.
9 SENATOR KENNEDY: Thank you.
10 Last week the Senate passed seven
11 pieces of legislation including the
12 legislation that was included in the
13 Executive Budget proposal. We would like to
14 see all of those proposals included in the
15 final outcome, just as a note.
16 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Thank
17 you.
18 SENATOR KENNEDY: I want to get into
19 what's already been discussed, the five-year
20 capital plan. Last year's Senate one-house
21 included another $10 billion. What we
22 finally resolved in the three-way agreement
23 was what is characterized as a historic
24 five-year capital plan, $32.8 billion. But
229
1 what we're recognizing is that that's not
2 enough. And we're hearing from industry
3 leaders, those on the ground, that especially
4 due to the cost of inflation, supplies, the
5 cost of doing business, particularly in the
6 implementation of this funding, is much
7 higher than was originally anticipated.
8 So what are your thoughts on
9 increasing that funding by at least
10 $10 billion, if not 12 billion, which could
11 be resolved by a five to $700 million bonding
12 to get $2.5 billion per year added to that
13 five-year capital plan?
14 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Sir, I
15 appreciate your advocacy. And I would say to
16 that that indeed what we received last year
17 was unprecedented on a number of fronts.
18 One, we now have steady -- a steady
19 means of transportation funding for New York
20 State in a five-year capital plan that we
21 have not had for years. And that level of
22 stability alone, and the remarkable amount of
23 money that was put forward, is going to work
24 immediately. And I shared some of the
230
1 numbers in my opening statement.
2 But, you know, we've got 589 total
3 bridges that are being constructed and
4 improved just in the first year alone, and
5 1353 lane miles of pavement that are being
6 constructed.
7 What's unique about this five-year
8 plan is it gives more flexibility to local
9 governments than it ever has before. And
10 even when you look at Bridge NY, we doubled
11 it -- you doubled it -- from 100 million to
12 200 million worth of investment. That
13 equates to a billion dollars over five years.
14 And when we look at how we factor in
15 inflation and recognizing that, one, DOT has
16 been working with the industry, recognizing
17 the costs of concrete, asphalt, steel, and
18 accommodating those in our contracts, I think
19 we have to play out inflation, the costs,
20 et cetera. Because what we're seeing is
21 depending on who you ask -- you know,
22 inflation's going up, it's coming down.
23 How is this going to play out over the
24 cost of an entire -- the entirety of the
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1 five-year plan? What we're trying to do is
2 manage to the dollars that we have. And
3 we're doing it, I think, extremely well,
4 given what the Executive and the Legislature
5 have provided.
6 SENATOR KENNEDY: There's funding from
7 COVID relief, upwards of $7 billion. Are
8 those funds going to be used at all to
9 enhance the funding that's already been
10 appropriated for infrastructure?
11 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So the
12 way that I understand it is that money was
13 put forward as part of an amendment for the
14 federal appropriations bill at the end of
15 last year. And it's directed at the
16 spend-down of COVID relief dollars from local
17 governments.
18 And so we're digging into the details
19 of it, but the U.S. Department of Treasury
20 right now is responsible for putting the
21 rules and regulations and requirements about
22 how to spend those dollars -- they haven't
23 issued those yet. They're supposed to come
24 out sometime in the next 60 days. So
232
1 depending on what those provisions are, we'll
2 make sure that we share with you what our
3 understanding is of what the feds have put
4 forward and how we might leverage it.
5 Certainly the local governments will
6 likely have more opportunity.
7 SENATOR KENNEDY: Well, I can tell you
8 we will be pushing for more funds for the
9 five-year capital plan, including in this
10 upcoming budget. I think that would be a way
11 we can enhance those dollars. Something we
12 should look at.
13 I'll be back for a second round.
14 thank you, Commissioner.
15 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Thank
16 you, sir.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
18 Assembly.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
20 Assemblyman Norris for five minutes.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN NORRIS: Thank you,
22 Commissioner. And again, I want to just
23 thank the workers. You know, I come from
24 Western New York, and as Senator Kennedy
233
1 mentioned, we appreciate, particularly during
2 the blizzard and the storm in November, the
3 work that the workers did in your entire
4 team.
5 I would like to just follow up,
6 though, with a question. What assessment is
7 being done by the DOT to ensure that all the
8 safety mechanisms for the public will be
9 taken into consideration for the next storm?
10 What is the DOT actually doing right now?
11 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: What
12 we're doing is much like we've approached all
13 of our operations. We're looking for
14 continuous improvement in everything. And so
15 one of the things that we're actually doing
16 is having that larger conversation within our
17 team to look at all of the operations, how
18 did they go, et cetera.
19 Moving forward, as I said, the
20 severity of this storm cannot be underscored,
21 and what happened. I think the bottom line
22 is is that everybody, in my humble opinion,
23 did an amazing job, especially those that
24 were on the ground and actually fighting the
234
1 fight.
2 That said, there's always opportunity,
3 and we will look for it, for improvements.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN NORRIS: I look forward to
5 seeing the assessment. And again, the
6 director, Frank Cirillo, in the region, did a
7 tremendous job. His entire team, your team.
8 And I thank you for that, and I look forward
9 to seeing the assessment when that is
10 produced by the DOT. It's important to the
11 people of Western New York, and I know also
12 up in Watertown, where the storm was intense
13 there as well.
14 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN NORRIS: I'd like just to
16 turn your attention now to the proposed
17 Executive Budget. CHIPS remaining flat at
18 $538 million, Extreme Winter Recovery
19 remaining flat at $100 million, Bridge NY,
20 200 million, and PAVE-NY at 150.
21 And, you know, I represent many
22 municipalities that rely particularly on
23 these programs, including CHIPS, for the
24 investment into our local roads, into our
235
1 economy. So I would just ask you, is that
2 enough? Considering that, as mentioned
3 before, inflation is up for some of these
4 costs, up to 25 percent, to help our local
5 municipalities, who really rely on this as a
6 major source of funding to repair those roads
7 in our communities.
8 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So thank
9 you for the question, sir.
10 I think, you know, we have to look at
11 it in the totality of all of the programs,
12 and certainly the local programs. So the
13 five-year capital plan that we started to
14 implement this year, is $6.1 billion that has
15 gone directly to local highway programs.
16 That's an increase of 78 percent over the
17 previous five-year program, which is quite
18 remarkable.
19 And when you take that in totality,
20 between CHIPS, EWR, Marchiselli, PAVE-NY, the
21 State Touring Routes opportunities, and a new
22 program that was created last year under the
23 Governor's leadership, Pave Our Potholes, you
24 know, that's where we're getting the
236
1 $6.1 billion. And to say that we have a
2 78 percent increase over last year just on
3 our highway projects alone is pretty
4 significant -- excuse me, 78 percent increase
5 over the previous five-year plan.
6 So the great news is that, you know, I
7 just want to -- I want to assure you that the
8 localities are indeed taking advantage of it.
9 We're getting the reimbursements in, people
10 are putting these dollars to work, contracts
11 are being let, work is being done. And
12 that's how we improve the condition of our
13 state roads, is by this level of investment.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN NORRIS: Thank you,
15 Commissioner. And I will continue to
16 advocate, particularly from being upstate,
17 for upstate New York, more dollars going back
18 in. For eight years -- and I know for a long
19 time we had flat in terms of the CHIPS
20 funding. And I know that was supplemented by
21 the Recovery money. But keeping it flat for
22 a long period of time -- and I know there was
23 just a recent increase, but for eight years
24 it was flat. It's very important that we
237
1 continue to increase those funds for our
2 local municipalities so our roads can be
3 repaired and our culverts as well.
4 And I would just like to just
5 mention -- and take a little local privilege
6 as well -- is, you know, I represent the Erie
7 Canal. And we have many historic bridges
8 that go over the Erie Canal, as well as just
9 regular bridges, to make sure that our
10 farmers can transverse their crops over both
11 sides of the canal.
12 What is a long-term plan to address
13 the bridges and the upkeep along the
14 Erie Canal?
15 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: As you
16 know -- we've had this discussion -- I think
17 the Erie Canal is one of the great gifts that
18 New York State has, indicative of our history
19 and our history certainly in transportation.
20 So many of the bridges are beautiful
21 and iconic. They're also very old. And so
22 we look to -- we look to reinvigorate and
23 rehabilitate a number of those.
24 Unfortunately, given the cost and the age,
238
1 some of the tools have to be done by hand,
2 and so we take them on as we can. But we
3 hope certainly to get some of the ones that
4 are in your district soon.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN NORRIS: Thank you very
6 much, Commissioner. I appreciate the
7 opportunity.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
9 To the Senate.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
11 much. The next is our ranker, Senator
12 Oberacker, for five minutes.
13 SENATOR OBERACKER: There we go.
14 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Hello,
15 sir.
16 SENATOR OBERACKER: Good to see you in
17 person. Thank you, Commissioner. And again,
18 thank you for all you do, especially for my
19 upstate counties that I represent.
20 You know, as a former chair of public
21 works for Otsego County, I understand the
22 importance of the local municipalities and
23 the impact that all of these funding streams
24 have, which are incredible. One of the
239
1 things we had talked about previously was the
2 EWR, the Extreme Winter Recovery funding.
3 And I wanted to just kind of plant a seed and
4 get, again, some feedback on looking at a
5 potential additional form of funding which
6 would be called Extreme Weather Recovery. We
7 had some really interesting storms -- and I
8 use that term loosely, "interesting" -- come
9 through my area in the springtime. And the
10 damage that those springtime storms posed to
11 the local municipalities were devastating.
12 And it would be extremely, I think,
13 valuable to look at a metric where we would
14 look at the damage being a percentage of an
15 overall local municipality budget. When I
16 was the supervisor for the Town of Maryland,
17 the Town of Maryland highway budget was about
18 83 percent of my total budget.
19 So I was really wanting to get some
20 feedback from you on what your thoughts were
21 about putting together a program that would
22 also address extreme weather as opposed to
23 extreme winter recovery.
24 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I think
240
1 that there are -- I very much appreciate the
2 fact that you're focused, first and foremost,
3 on what I would call -- what you're calling
4 weather, I would call resiliency. Because
5 basically what we have to really do is make
6 sure that we're leveraging the dollars that
7 we're receiving from this budget to make sure
8 that we've got that level of durability.
9 I mentioned in my statement that we
10 build for a 75-year lifespan for our bridges.
11 That's because we build for resiliency. And
12 when you look at that and you couple that
13 with opportunities that we now have, we're
14 leveraging the dollars in the capital plan
15 right now for a very specific culvert
16 program, where we're rehabilitating over
17 400 culverts in the state. That's critical
18 because, as you know, roads and bridges are
19 dependent on appropriate drainage systems.
20 And if they fail, the road fails and the
21 bridge fails.
22 So we've got an entire program within
23 DOT where we focus on monitoring drainage
24 systems, culverts, et cetera. But we're
241
1 building and identifying and we're taking all
2 that data and assessing where do we need to
3 further invest in that resiliency factor
4 related to weather.
5 But I'd be happy to talk to you about
6 what we do and how we can actually build for
7 additional resiliency.
8 SENATOR OBERACKER: Thank you. I
9 appreciate that answer.
10 Also, under the PAVE-NY, which was
11 150 million for the PAVE-NY fund, some of the
12 local municipalities had the ability or the
13 timing to plan for when we changed our
14 costings for hauling aggregate for local
15 municipalities. Is there a way that maybe
16 some of that could help offset their
17 budgetary stresses? Because they didn't get
18 a chance to budget for that when we passed
19 that legislation. Is there a way that that
20 can be used to help offset some of the
21 hauling?
22 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I don't
23 know, but I'd be happy to explore it.
24 SENATOR OBERACKER: Perfect. Perfect.
242
1 I thank you again for that.
2 And then lastly, is there a breakdown,
3 if you will, from an upstate-downstate
4 transportation investment maintenance
5 perspective? You know, I kind of span both,
6 if you really start to think about it. So
7 just kind of interesting, I'm asked a lot,
8 Where does upstate and downstate start? If
9 you want to educate me on that, Commissioner,
10 I would appreciate the answer. So thank you.
11 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I would
12 never presume to define where upstate and
13 downstate -- there's entire blogs, Twitter --
14 (Laughter.)
15 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: --
16 accounts devoted to that.
17 But with regard to how we actually
18 utilize the funding, I want to assure you
19 that first and foremost the way that DOT
20 approaches, you know, how we actually compile
21 the capital plan is really on an asset basis.
22 So we literally look at the conditions --
23 roads, bridges, culverts, et cetera -- and
24 make sure that we're accounting for all the
243
1 data that goes into that, to really
2 understand where the needs are greatest.
3 That said, we try and apply that
4 statewide across the board, upstate,
5 downstate, et cetera.
6 SENATOR OBERACKER: Perfect. And
7 thank you.
8 And my last question is more of a
9 statement. I would appreciate all of those
10 that have never had the opportunity to stand
11 on a highway when a vehicle is traveling
12 55 miles an hour down the road. As a member
13 of my emergency squad, you get a feel for
14 that. Those that are out there every day,
15 everybody, we need to slow down and save
16 lives.
17 Thank you.
18 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Thank
19 you, sir. Greatly appreciate that.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman
21 Simon. Is she here?
22 Just to colleagues, Assembly and
23 Senate, the end chair on the left is for
24 people who don't have a seat with a
244
1 microphone at it. There's a sign there
2 for ...
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And, I'm sorry,
4 for the Senate, we didn't put a sign up yet.
5 But for tomorrow, just know the seat on the
6 far right in the front -- wave for us,
7 Senator. Great. So as of tomorrow, that
8 will be the seat we leave open for any
9 Senator who comes in and then is going to ask
10 questions and doesn't have a seat with a
11 microphone.
12 Thank you.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you for
14 the time to find my notes. I appreciate it.
15 Good afternoon, Commissioner. Thank
16 you so much for being here. And thank you
17 for the conversation we had the other day as
18 well.
19 You know, as we have talked, a major
20 concern in Brooklyn is the deteriorating
21 triple cantilever of the BQE. And while the
22 city owns that portion, you literally can't
23 get on it or off it without the state ramps,
24 et cetera. And most of the BQE itself is
245
1 under state control. And we've had several
2 false starts with this project, and one of
3 the concerns we've heard from the community
4 is about the state involvement.
5 Can you explain to us what the state
6 is doing to assist the city moving forward
7 with this project, including access to
8 federal funds, if you can.
9 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes.
10 So New York State DOT is working
11 directly with the city, all elements of the
12 city that are involved, including City DOT,
13 on the NEPA requirements. Meaning that this
14 is -- the triple cantilever project, the
15 reconstruction of the triple cantilever,
16 which is what the city's putting forward
17 right now, is going to require a full
18 environmental impact statement. And the
19 scope of that is currently in development.
20 And I would argue that this is one of
21 the most critical things that you can do in a
22 project of this size and this magnitude. So
23 that's where we're directly engaged with the
24 city, helping them certainly with technical
246
1 assistance on their bridge elements, but more
2 importantly on the NEPA requirements.
3 And, I'm sorry, you asked me a second
4 part to that question.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Well, mostly of
6 access to federal funds. I know we have
7 discussed that as well. Because several of
8 the members here represent parts of the
9 roadway, and access to federal money under
10 the Bipartisan Infrastructure Act is
11 critical.
12 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So the
13 city's looking at applying for discretionary
14 grants under the bipartisan infrastructure
15 legislation. And so they've got full ability
16 -- the great thing about the bipartisan
17 infrastructure legislation is that it opened
18 up opportunities for municipalities
19 certainly, you know, New York City, let alone
20 local municipalities, to apply for
21 discretionary grants.
22 And so part of the work that we're
23 doing right now with the city on the NEPA
24 process will help them with their application
247
1 for discretionary grants.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: And you'll
3 support the request, the city -- the state?
4 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Their
5 support for the discretionary grant?
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Yeah.
7 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I think
8 across the board, if -- you know, the bottom
9 line is to make sure that the project comes
10 together and is supported by a strong
11 environmental component. That will be the
12 baseline for everything. So yes.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
15 To the Senate.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry. Thank
17 you so much. Excuse me. Too many things
18 happening sometimes at the same time.
19 Senator Liu, please.
20 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair.
21 And thank you, Commissioner, for
22 joining us. Good to see you.
23 You mentioned that -- you actually
24 mentioned in your testimony $153 million for
248
1 the electric vehicle infrastructure plan.
2 That's part of -- I'm being told that the
3 state expects about $14 billion from the
4 infrastructure -- from President Biden's
5 infrastructure plan?
6 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes.
7 So that was just specific to the NEVI
8 program that I'm talking about, the electric
9 vehicle --
10 SENATOR LIU: Well, that's a good
11 thing. But the rest of the 14 billion, is
12 that already baked into that five-year
13 capital plan that you testified about?
14 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes, sir.
15 SENATOR LIU: And are there -- is
16 there like a specific list that -- is all of
17 the capital plan spoken for, the federal as
18 well as state-funded portions?
19 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: At the
20 end of the budget process last year, the MOU
21 was signed between the Legislature and the
22 Executive which defines how those dollars
23 will be spent in the five-year capital plan.
24 SENATOR LIU: Even though the federal
249
1 infrastructure plan had not yet been passed
2 at the time.
3 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: It had.
4 SENATOR LIU: It had? A year ago.
5 Okay. All right.
6 So it's all spoken for, there's
7 nothing left. That's --
8 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: It's been
9 programmed.
10 SENATOR LIU: Okay. I do want to
11 thank you and your team for putting in -- I
12 guess they're supposed to be innovative green
13 barriers to help local residents contend with
14 noise emanating from highways going through
15 residential neighborhoods.
16 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes.
17 SENATOR LIU: So thanks to you for
18 that. And hope to see some more of that
19 through I guess the list that's already been
20 developed?
21 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: It's a
22 whole mix of programs in the five-year
23 capital plan, so we've got projects in every
24 corner of the state. So yes, some of them
250
1 will include some green noise opportunity --
2 green noise reduction opportunities.
3 SENATOR LIU: All right, great. And
4 thank you for highlighting your DOT team.
5 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Thank
6 you.
7 SENATOR LIU: They make things work,
8 they make us move, and I guess I'll give a
9 shout out to your assistant commissioner
10 Jan Ho there, sitting quietly there.
11 Thanks for your team, and thanks for
12 your efforts.
13 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Thank
14 you, sir.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
16 Assembly.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
18 Jacobson.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: Thank you.
20 Thank you, Madam Chair.
21 I can't predict the weather, but I can
22 guarantee you that when we go from sub-zero
23 weather to weather in the forties and higher,
24 we're going to have more potholes. Yet all
251
1 our great programs, well intentioned --
2 CHIPS, Extreme Weather, Pave Our Potholes,
3 BRIDGE NY, PAVE-NY -- no increase this year.
4 And as far as I know, paving costs have not
5 been immune to inflation. There hasn't been
6 an increase on many of these in a number of
7 years.
8 So are you going to tell the Governor,
9 Hey, it's a great budget, but I really think
10 you should change this funding and help the
11 people that need help so we can do the
12 paving?
13 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Well, I
14 think what we're doing is executing on the
15 five-year plan that was agreed to last year
16 that did include increases in those funding
17 pots.
18 So, you know, the bottom line is is
19 that we've got a very significant amount of
20 money that we're putting to use for the
21 infrastructure that is across our state. And
22 whether it's local bridge, local highway
23 money, we've seen -- we've seen a good amount
24 of investment. We're trying to put it all to
252
1 good use --
2 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: These are for
3 the local roads.
4 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Correct.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: And we've got
6 this extra federal money. So a lot of these
7 municipalities can match out. And if you had
8 more to match, they could do it.
9 Another is I represent in Orange
10 County -- you've been in my district. I have
11 Route 84. We have the interchange with the
12 Thruway. From the Newburgh Beacon Bridge to
13 the Thruway, it's terrible.
14 I was told last year that this is a
15 priority for this year. I mean, if you go on
16 Exit 37, which goes -- going east, getting
17 off, it's nothing but potholes. And you have
18 to pray in the evening that you remember on
19 the ramp that you can't -- even though you're
20 going to make a right-hand turn, you've got
21 to stay in the left lane, and you've got to
22 make sure that you don't forget where the
23 potholes are.
24 So is that going to be done this year?
253
1 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: We do
2 have a project programmed to address that
3 area, and I think our team has been able to
4 meet with you and go through some of the
5 details. But I'll make sure that we follow
6 it up directly.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: I hope so,
8 because then you can come by and -- believe
9 me, next year, if it's done, I will praise
10 it, your good work.
11 Now, as far as Route 17, the expansion
12 of Route 17, I've been hearing for the last
13 four years it's just around the corner, so
14 much that we're in a circle and going no
15 place. When is the environmental impact
16 statement going to be done, and when are we
17 going to get in the ground?
18 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So as you
19 know, sir, we completed the linkage study
20 last year, and now we've moved into the EIS
21 phase. We've secured a contract, and we've
22 started on the study.
23 And the one thing I can tell you
24 really quickly, because I know the time is
254
1 short, is that one of the things that we're
2 going to be doing is making sure we address
3 some of the -- there's an exit that has a
4 linkage to the existing 17 that we're going
5 to improve before we even tackle the larger
6 17. So there will be progress along the way.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: Which means
8 when?
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
10 Time.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: Thank you. My
12 time is up.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: To the Senate
14 now.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Leroy
16 Comrie.
17 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you. Good
18 afternoon, Commissioner. I want to thank you
19 for your work and reaching out and
20 consistently keeping us informed about your
21 concerns and issues. So I want to
22 congratulate you for the Kew Gardens
23 exchange, finally getting that done after a
24 hundred years. But it looks good, and it's
255
1 not -- there's no water, so that's a
2 wonderful thing, that weakened concern.
3 Can you give us, for the public, what
4 is the thought process behind the delay in
5 designation for the Van Wyck, and what's
6 going on with the Van Wyck? Because I know
7 we just finished a -- there's a lot of work
8 happening over there, and what can be done to
9 give people some hope that the Van Wyck will
10 get completed in -- in --
11 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So we
12 have a very large project going on on the Van
13 Wyck. It's a three-phase, multi-million-
14 dollar project. But basically we're looking
15 at adding an HOV lane. In order to do that,
16 it means that we actually have to -- we're
17 not expanding the footprint of the Van Wyck;
18 what we're doing is creating additional space
19 within the existing footprint. And in order
20 to do that, we have to address the bridges
21 along the way.
22 All of that means that basically we're
23 looking to make sure that, one, the purpose
24 of the program is fulfilled, which is, one,
256
1 to ease movement across the Van Wyck. But
2 also we're planning for what the future might
3 be. So today, you know, it is an HOV lane
4 allowing for additional persons to move, you
5 know, multi-passenger cars. But in the
6 future it could be a dedicated bus lane.
7 The bottom line is is that we're
8 looking to make sure that we can take
9 advantage of every opportunity as technology
10 advances, as well as ridership and the use of
11 our transportation system. So thank you for
12 your patience. We're getting there. We're
13 making a lot of good progress.
14 SENATOR COMRIE: Can we work on a
15 community meeting? Because there's a lot of
16 folks concerned about the on and off ramps
17 and the accessibility right now. So if we
18 can get a timeline for that for the public,
19 I'd appreciate it.
20 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes, I'd
21 be happy to share that with you.
22 SENATOR COMRIE: Cross-Island Parkway.
23 I have to ask you, when am I getting my
24 Cross-Island Parkway expanded from, you know,
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1 the interchange with the Southern State
2 Parkway to -- through the -- you know,
3 through to the -- all the way through to
4 Grand Central? We need to get the
5 Cross-Island Parkway expanded.
6 Has there been any development or
7 design updating -- to update on that?
8 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Not that
9 I have for you today, sir. But I can tell
10 you that it's something that we continue to
11 look at.
12 SENATOR COMRIE: Okay. And also can
13 you get us an update on how you're doing with
14 MWBE and procurements within your agency to
15 give to the community so we can get an update
16 on how well you're spending money within our
17 MWBE footprint?
18 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes, sir.
19 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you. Oh, right
20 on time.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Assembly.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
24 We go to Assemblywoman Gallagher.
258
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER: Hello.
2 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Hello.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER: Can you hear
4 me?
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER: Okay. Hi.
7 Ooh, that's much better. Hi, I'm
8 Assemblywoman Gallagher, and I represent the
9 northernmost part in Brooklyn of the BQE.
10 And there's been a strong perception in my
11 community that the state is not at the table
12 in the same way that the city is in terms of
13 the revisioning of what the BQE can look
14 like.
15 We have been divided, my communities
16 have been divided by the BQE. We've suffered
17 enormous environmental impacts. We've also
18 suffered environmental justice impacts with
19 childhood asthma and other situations caused
20 by the presence of this major highway.
21 Additionally, we have trucks and
22 traffic cutting through our residential
23 streets to get to the BQE. And I know that
24 my community really wants to see a totally
259
1 different vision.
2 So I'm wondering what is the state's
3 vision for the BQE, and what will that look
4 like in terms of community engagement?
5 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So as I
6 was saying before, Assemblymember, we're at
7 the table directly with the City DOT working
8 on the EIS that they're developing, the
9 environmental documentation for the
10 rehabilitation -- or, rather, reconstruction
11 of the triple cantilever.
12 But, you know, in the last 10 years
13 DOT, New York State DOT, has invested more
14 than -- I want to say over a billion,
15 $1.2 billion along the BQE. And so what
16 we're looking at right now is future needs
17 within the city's study area. We anticipate
18 that our investment is going to be somewhere
19 around an additional 300 million over the
20 next five years, and we're going to really be
21 looking at some of those structural
22 deficiencies as well as some of the
23 rehabilitation --
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER: I don't want
260
1 to interrupt you, but I want to make sure I
2 get my point across. My community does not
3 want the BQE to be repaired, we want it to be
4 revisioned and totally changed. And that
5 includes decking some of the parts that are
6 underground. And it also means maybe
7 thinking differently about the part that is
8 aboveground.
9 Currently the part that's by my
10 community has paint flaking off. We've tried
11 to have multiple meetings with State DOT, and
12 they haven't worked out over the last
13 10 years. And I just know that we need to
14 have a stronger dialogue about what the BQE
15 repairs and changes look like, because we are
16 not part of the city BQE portion, we are only
17 state. And we do not feel like we are being
18 heard or seen.
19 And I would really like to build a
20 stronger dialogue about what is happening
21 with the BQE. Thank you.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Perfect timing.
23 Senate?
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
261
1 Senator Mattera.
2 SENATOR MATTERA: Great. And
3 Commissioner -- thank you, Madam Chair.
4 Thank you, Madam Chair.
5 And Commissioner, it's just wonderful
6 to see you, and I thank you so much for you
7 coming to my office and -- you know, and I
8 gave you my wish list, and I'm hopeful that
9 you really went over that, you know, before
10 you came here today. But I appreciate all --
11 especially all the DOT workers for what they
12 do every day, all the union workers that work
13 so hard.
14 So in -- the budget includes an
15 additional 48 million in General Fund
16 appropriations for operations, and yet
17 full-time employees are not increasing. What
18 are the additional funds being used for?
19 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ:
20 Forty-eight million for operations? That
21 goes to literally everything that we do
22 within the state system. So operations
23 literally funds our snow and ice, our highway
24 maintenance program, everything that we do to
262
1 maintain the system itself. Those all come
2 directly into our operations.
3 SENATOR MATTERA: Okay. But our
4 full-time employees, we're -- they're
5 actually -- what's happening with them with
6 the increases of decent wage, decent
7 healthcare and decent pension? Are we
8 looking --
9 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes, sir.
10 Actually, we have just looked very seriously
11 at our snow and ice team in particular and
12 have made adjustments accordingly,
13 recognizing that they absolutely do deserve a
14 living wage.
15 SENATOR MATTERA: Please. It's very,
16 very important. We know what's happening
17 right now with inflation and everything like
18 that. And, you know, we're all praising our
19 DOT workers, but you know what, they need
20 to -- you know, they need to --
21 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: And we
22 have acknowledged that and --
23 SENATOR MATTERA: -- they need to be
24 compensated, please.
263
1 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: They have
2 been.
3 SENATOR MATTERA: And I thank
4 Assemblywoman Gallagher. Thank you so much,
5 because leaving Long Island and going to --
6 it's scary, that BQE. That is -- it is so
7 scary, you go with a truck and -- I'm into
8 cars, okay. Driving with a truck and
9 trailer, that is a disaster. And right, not
10 to just put down new pavement, that needs to
11 be totally engineered. Me being in
12 construction, it is just a disaster.
13 So we can't just do a pothole repair;
14 it needs to be totally revamped. So I know
15 that's a tough one, but that really has to be
16 looked into. And I thank you, Assemblywoman,
17 for bringing that up.
18 On the CHIPS fund, can you explain to
19 me what your role is to help CHIPS? And I
20 thank the Assemblyman that he brought that
21 up. What is your role in helping CHIPS? And
22 I always want to thank our Senator O'Mara for
23 always having our CHIPS Day and, you know,
24 the superintendents come up and you know
264
1 what, and of course to look for CHIPS money.
2 Because you've got to remember something,
3 these Prime trucks and these drop-shipping
4 trucks are driving all over our neighborhoods
5 right now, and really, seriously, there
6 should be like toll booths and they should
7 be, you know, paying for driving all over our
8 roads right now. I understand it's progress.
9 But what can we do to help our CHIPS funds
10 out to -- seriously, these trucks are driving
11 all over our neighborhoods. Everybody knows
12 that.
13 That can't be three minutes.
14 (Laughter.)
15 SENATOR MATTERA: Senator Krueger --
16 (Laughter.)
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I don't -- you
18 know, I don't make the rules.
19 SENATOR MATTERA: Can she just answer
20 the question, please, if you don't mind?
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Can you quickly
22 answer the question?
23 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So, one,
24 I want to thank you for your advocacy for our
265
1 highway workers. I greatly appreciate it.
2 We have made huge strides, and I really thank
3 the Governor for that, to make sure that they
4 are compensated for the incredible work that
5 they do.
6 With regard to CHIPS, one of the
7 things that I was trying to point out is we
8 really have put -- the Legislature and the
9 Executive put in a lot of money to --
10 actually, $6.1 billion, for local programs,
11 leveraging that across a whole variety of
12 reimbursement programs. So my role in
13 particular, DOT's role in particular, is to
14 make sure that we work with the localities to
15 spend those dollars as wisely as possible.
16 SENATOR MATTERA: Thank you so much.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
18 You might have to become a Democrat
19 now.
20 SENATOR MATTERA: Thank you, Senator
21 Krueger.
22 (Laughter.)
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
24 Otis.
266
1 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Hi, Commissioner,
2 how are you doing here? I'm over here.
3 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Hello,
4 sir.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you for your
6 testimony and for all the hard work of
7 everybody at DOT.
8 I have three topics. I'll run them
9 off quickly, and you can tackle them.
10 Number one, curious to get more detail
11 in terms of EV charging infrastructure for
12 travelers. And especially, I think the
13 concern generally across the country is that
14 we're not rolling out EV charging stations
15 that are going to meet the demand very
16 quickly for the purchase of electric vehicles
17 with all the manufacturers moving very
18 quickly to that. So that's topic number one.
19 Topic number two is in terms of solar
20 arrays near highways, it's something that is
21 a popular thing around the country. I don't
22 know whether DOT is working on that with NYPA
23 or whatnot, but it's something -- curious as
24 to whether -- how deep you're into that. But
267
1 there is land near highways that isn't being
2 used for other things. We're not taking away
3 farmland. A good place for solar.
4 And number three, your reflections on
5 the experience of the storm recovery in
6 Western New York and Northern New York. And
7 DOT did a great job of trying to get
8 resources, mutual aid, to those areas. And
9 what occurs to me is that this is an
10 opportunity to institutionalize and expand
11 that kind of mutual aid concept for the
12 storms that are sure to come in the future.
13 So any thoughts on those three topics
14 are very welcome. And again, thank you for
15 everything that the department does.
16 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Well,
17 thank you for your questions.
18 The first one, with regard to
19 electrification, I had mentioned that we're
20 getting $175 million through the Federal
21 Highway Administration. They have accepted
22 the plan that New York State DOT has put
23 forward for electrification under NEVI. What
24 that's going to do is fill the fast-charging
268
1 gaps per the requirements that FHWA has put
2 out.
3 So basically you have to have, within
4 50 miles or more, along the corridor that's
5 been designated by USDOT, electric charging
6 capability. And so the complete map was
7 actually approved, and now we're in the
8 process of actually working with our partners
9 at NYSERDA and NYPA and DEC and DPS and
10 everybody to make sure that we're actively
11 developing that, building off the great
12 success that New York has had.
13 I have to say, I talk to my
14 counterparts in other states; the great thing
15 that we have is we've got NYSERDA and NYPA
16 and other entities that have been installing
17 fast charging through the existing programs
18 that we have, Make Ready and others. And so
19 we're leveraging all of that expertise to
20 make sure that we develop it.
21 With regard to the solar panels, we
22 have done that in the past. We've installed
23 them. We're more focused right now on what
24 the global partnering with our state's --
269
1 with the other entities like NYSERDA on
2 renewable energy. So transmission from wind
3 and water.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
6 Senate?
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
8 Next is Senator Ramos.
9 SENATOR RAMOS: Thank you, Senator
10 Krueger.
11 Commissioner Dominguez, good to see
12 you again. I want to focus my questions
13 today on e-bikes. We legalized three
14 different classes in 2019, and it was a big
15 win for my constituents, for delivery
16 workers, for the environment. But of course
17 the proper use and safety continues to be a
18 concern, I think, to all of us.
19 And unfortunately the City of New York
20 continues to ignore the clause that actually
21 mandates the city to enact traffic
22 regulations.
23 So I'm wondering, what is it that the
24 State DOT can do to educate e-bike riders
270
1 about the laws about use without relying on
2 overpolicing?
3 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: You know,
4 part of the education process is actually a
5 collaborative effort. Right? When you're
6 talking about anybody who's using a bikeway,
7 a pedestrian access point, let alone the
8 roads. And I think that one of the
9 opportunities that may exist is to work
10 through the Governor's Traffic Safety Council
11 to really look at what kinds of educational
12 signage and other mechanisms, to make sure
13 that we're reaching people. Right?
14 Not just by language but literally by
15 international, global signage that people can
16 understand. What are the rules, quote,
17 unquote, of the bikeway, what are the rules
18 of how you operate a motorized vehicle
19 like --
20 SENATOR RAMOS: You know, it's true, I
21 mean the city at this point, since 2019, is
22 yet to post any speed limits, like we do have
23 for cars, for example. It's very unfortunate
24 that the city continues to ignore and fall
271
1 out of compliance with the law.
2 Along those lines, actually, Senator
3 Krueger carries a few bills to regulate
4 lithium ion batteries that, as you know, have
5 been the source of a few fires, including in
6 my district, unfortunately. Lithium ion
7 batteries are actually banned for second use
8 under every circumstance except for e-bikes,
9 unfortunately.
10 Is there anything that the DOT can do
11 to promote the safe use of those batteries?
12 Are there any plans for the state to aid in
13 the storage of batteries of e-bikes?
14 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I have to
15 tell you that I know enough to be really
16 dangerous here. Because of my former job at
17 USDOT, I actually regulated hazardous
18 materials in transportation, and it really is
19 a federal issue with regard to lithium ion
20 batteries. And so I think there's an
21 opportunity to look to see, under the federal
22 requirements, how do you actually have those
23 safety provisions in place.
24 It's not a state jurisdictional issue
272
1 per se. You can imagine, you know,
2 e-cigarettes when they were on planes --
3 again, having to do with lithium ion
4 batteries and the safety of them. So ...
5 SENATOR RAMOS: Okay. Well, I'd very
6 much like to work on this issue with you.
7 Thank you.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly.
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman
10 Mitaynes.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: Hello? Okay.
12 Thank you.
13 I want to know what the state is doing
14 to apply to the federal government for
15 Reconnecting Communities grants from the
16 federal government. Communities north and
17 south of the cantilever have been divided by
18 the BQE for 70 polluting years.
19 In my district in particular, of
20 Sunset Park and Red Hook, they've been
21 divided by a hulking elevated viaduct. And
22 so the communities need reconnection and they
23 need environmental justice.
24 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So one of
273
1 the things that we were just talking about
2 earlier with regard to the BQE is we're
3 helping directly to provide some assistance
4 to the city in the form of technical
5 assistance on their environmental review
6 process. That will in turn help inform their
7 application for a Reconnecting Communities
8 grant or whatever they decide to go after the
9 discretionary programs at USDOT.
10 But there are opportunities for
11 discretionary grants.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. I wasn't
14 quite sure whether they were done. Thank
15 you. Somebody was so fast.
16 Next we have Senator Hinchey.
17 SENATOR HINCHEY: Thank you, Madam
18 Chair.
19 And hello, Commissioner.
20 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Hello,
21 Senator.
22 SENATOR HINCHEY: Thank you for being
23 here.
24 I want to touch on -- or ask something
274
1 that we've talked a lot about, which is
2 upstate public transportation. I'll say
3 upstate being Hudson Valley to -- in this
4 context. I represent a district with very
5 little public transportation. And it was
6 exciting to see in the budget $3 million set
7 aside for innovative public transportation
8 options, understanding these are kind of
9 based on a pilot rollout.
10 But $3 million to me sounds very low
11 as it pertains to anything in transportation,
12 but especially for that large swath of an
13 area, especially trying to generate -- the
14 way I read this, generate public
15 transportation options in places that don't
16 have it.
17 Would you recommend, would you think
18 that we should have more money allocated to
19 these types of projects in our upstate
20 communities?
21 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Well, I
22 definitely appreciate -- first and foremost,
23 I think this is a step in the right
24 direction. The Executive put forward an
275
1 Innovative Mobility Fund, recognizing that we
2 really need to look at how we actually
3 provide transit service in all parts of the
4 state.
5 And what I mean by that is, you know,
6 you had the chance to talk to the MTA about
7 what they're doing in the city, but when you
8 look outside of the non-MTA areas, we've got
9 transit deserts across the state. And what
10 we're -- what we've been trying to do is
11 figure out how we can best fill those gaps.
12 And whether that's micro-mobility, you know,
13 coming up with on-demand services -- some of
14 the authorities, as we've talked about,
15 upstate have really experimented with this to
16 a lot of success.
17 So the question is is how can we
18 leverage this innovative pilot fund to better
19 service all people --
20 SENATOR HINCHEY: But that requires
21 one of those communities to have an authority
22 already.
23 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Well, I
24 think we should -- I'm not quite sure that
276
1 the rules of this have all been put together.
2 So I think that, you know, recognizing that
3 what you're pointing out is, you know, do you
4 have to have an authority to actually make
5 this -- to access these funds.
6 But I think we should go through what
7 the requirements -- I don't believe, and I'll
8 correct myself on the record later on if I'm
9 wrong. But I'm not sure that the
10 requirements have been defined yet on how --
11 but it's intended to be -- the 3 million to
12 be a competitive process.
13 SENATOR HINCHEY: Thank you. Yeah,
14 we'll look into that. Because as we know,
15 the Hudson Valley doesn't have a transit
16 authority, and so sometimes it's difficult to
17 find those.
18 In my last few seconds I want to
19 switch gears really quickly. You know, what
20 is DOT's role in helping expand cellphone
21 service? As a safety measure for drivers on
22 the road?
23 Many of our state roads don't have
24 cellphone service. We have bridges that have
277
1 signs that say "Call for help" and then no
2 cellphone service. So what do you think
3 DOT's role is there?
4 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: We work
5 directly with the cellular companies to make
6 sure that wherever they're looking to install
7 additional service, that we provide safe
8 access to the highway, to the state right of
9 way.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
11 Assembly.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
13 Slater.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Good afternoon,
15 Commissioner.
16 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Good
17 afternoon.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: I think this is
19 on. It is? Great.
20 Just a couple of quick questions for
21 you. Again, great seeing you. Thank you for
22 taking time to visit me in my office last
23 week.
24 I wanted to bring up again the
278
1 five-year transportation plan and the MOU
2 that allocated about 25 percent, roughly
3 4.4 billion, for the Governor's priority
4 projects. And we've heard a lot today about
5 the impact of inflation and the costs of
6 construction these days. So my concern is if
7 we've allocated those dollars for the
8 Governor's priority projects, do we know for
9 a fact that we allocated enough of the
10 4.4 billion? And if not, is there a concern
11 from your standpoint that you're going to
12 have to shift dollars from other road
13 projects to complete them?
14 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: No. What
15 we're looking to do is manage -- we -- the
16 bottom line is is that we've got opportunity
17 in the five-year budget. And what I was
18 trying to explain before is we're monitoring
19 all the costs with regard to inflation. The
20 cost of supplies, we've definitely seen an
21 increase over the last year and a half,
22 certainly. But those prices are adjusting
23 themselves.
24 And so I think it's incumbent upon us
279
1 to actually monitor it over the course of
2 time here. We're seeing a lot of -- you
3 know, for instance, some of these prices are
4 actually coming down in the last quarter,
5 certainly over the last six months. So we
6 have to look at it over the course of the
7 five-year plan, how do we adjust those costs
8 accordingly.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Thank you.
10 And I want to pivot quickly in my
11 remaining time to the TOD proposal for
12 transit-oriented development.
13 As you know, in my region and in my
14 district, state roads are our main arteries.
15 And so I'm just curious, from your
16 standpoint, if we're implementing this
17 housing program and the infrastructure
18 specifically for state roads cannot support
19 the increase of housing, what's your
20 department going to do or what's your vision
21 on how you can address that to meet the needs
22 of my communities?
23 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I think
24 one of the things that's really innovative
280
1 about the project -- so I like to look at it
2 as mobility, not just transit-specific, but
3 any mode of transportation that can be
4 accessed. Because that's what we're
5 basically trying to do, right? We're trying
6 to connect people where they live to where
7 they need to be, regardless of what mode of
8 transportation is accessible to them.
9 And so that's the opportunity. And
10 when you marry that up between housing
11 opportunities, DRI, all of the other economic
12 development programs that the state has,
13 we've seen great success in how we can
14 leverage train, transit, highway, rail
15 service, et cetera, for the betterment.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: I completely
17 understand that. But considering that my
18 district is a commuter district, and right
19 now they use state roads to get to the local
20 Metro-North stations. If you're going to be
21 populating around those stations -- and right
22 now the infrastructure isn't there to support
23 what we currently need -- how are we going to
24 support an influx of people who are utilizing
281
1 those arteries?
2 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Well, we
3 look at it very holistically through the
4 planning process at the MPO and how we can
5 better serve everybody with leveraging those
6 investments.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Thank you,
8 Commissioner.
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
10 Senate?
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
12 Senator Gounardes.
13 SENATOR GOUNARDES: Great, thank you.
14 Good afternoon, Commissioner.
15 I just want to put the debate to bed.
16 Upstate begins north of Newtown Creek,
17 everybody.
18 (Laughter.)
19 SENATOR GOUNARDES: And I want to just
20 echo what Senator Kennedy ended on about
21 looking to increase the capital plan as it
22 relates to state roads, especially because in
23 my district of Brooklyn, I represent 11 of
24 the 19 miles of the BQE.
282
1 And, you know, I want to follow up on
2 the questions that my colleagues have asked.
3 Because just helping on the EIS is not
4 enough. We know that the city controls the
5 city cantilever and that they have to get the
6 application in. Everyone understands that.
7 Everyone at the table understands that.
8 But this highway is more than just a
9 damaged 1.5-mile structure along the Brooklyn
10 Heights Promenade. This highway is 20 miles,
11 it's a scar through the face of Brooklyn and
12 Queens. And we can't make any changes to the
13 center of this highway, necessary changes,
14 unless we do them everywhere. Otherwise
15 we're not changing anything.
16 And to Assemblymember Gallagher's
17 point, communities are hurting and they've
18 been suffering for decades, for decades. And
19 the state has not been anywhere in this
20 conversation. We have community vision
21 meetings with the city where we're told that
22 State DOT officials are on the calls but they
23 can't reveal themselves, they can't show up
24 on a Zoom meeting.
283
1 And so how do we go back to our
2 communities that have been crying in pain and
3 say, Don't worry, we're fighting for you, but
4 the state agency responsible to help us, that
5 owns this highway, won't even show their face
6 on a Zoom meeting? That's just not an
7 acceptable answer. It's absolutely not.
8 We need the state to be part of this
9 process, with the city for the cantilever,
10 but for the southern portions and the
11 northern portions. And we understand that
12 the southern and northern portions are on a
13 different timeline, they have different
14 needs, different funding. But if you guys
15 are not at the table now, none of this is
16 going to happen.
17 So I really, really, really have to
18 impress upon you and the entire department:
19 We need you to be part of this process and
20 not just to provide technical expertise on
21 the city's application for the cantilever.
22 Because otherwise this whole thing is going
23 to fail and we're just going to rebuild what
24 we have, which is going to condemn another
284
1 five generations to the highest asthma rates
2 in Brooklyn, to more decades of environmental
3 racism, to more impact of freight truck
4 traffic and truck traffic, flooding off the
5 Gowanus that comes down to Third Avenue and
6 just pools there without any mitigation in
7 sight.
8 So please, please, please, please,
9 please -- pretty please -- we need State DOT
10 at the table. And not just on a nameless,
11 faceless Zoom call. We need you guys at the
12 table.
13 And I'll let my last 17 seconds go
14 back to you. Thank you.
15 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I
16 appreciate your passion.
17 SENATOR GOUNARDES: It's more than
18 passion. It's a necessity.
19 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I
20 understand. You know, we have really
21 significant issues that we've been addressing
22 across so many communities across New York.
23 That's the whole purpose of the Hunts Point
24 project in the South Bronx. So I do
285
1 appreciate exactly what you're saying and the
2 communities that you're serving.
3 And so again, we're working with City
4 DOT on this project.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
6 Next is Assemblymember -- I'm going to
7 get it wrong -- Pirozzolo? Is Assemblymember
8 Pirozzolo here? No.
9 Well, okay, then Assemblymember
10 Giglio. Gig-lio? Sorry, I pronounced it
11 wrong. Sorry.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: So thank you
13 for being here. And thank you for visiting
14 my office also. Thank you for the
15 Long Island Expressway improvements that was
16 done on time and under budget. And I care
17 about the safety of the workers as much as
18 you do.
19 Being an operating engineer with
20 Local 138, I am curious as to the transition
21 to electric vehicles for the heavy equipment
22 on the roadways, especially snow removal.
23 With concerns for all of my colleagues in
24 Buffalo and in the heavier winter areas where
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1 an electric vehicle -- heavy load or diesel,
2 that operates for 12 hours. An electric
3 vehicle may only be able to operate for four
4 hours. And I want to know if you have it in
5 your budget plan to make sure that you have
6 three times the vehicles so you can do three
7 times the work with the electric vehicles.
8 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So the
9 way that we're approaching it -- and I very
10 much appreciate your understanding of all of
11 this -- is making sure that as the technology
12 comes on-board for especially heavy-duty
13 vehicles like a plow truck, we're working
14 directly with the OEMs to understand when
15 they're going to have vehicles ready, when we
16 can test them, and when we can actually
17 purchase them that would actually do the work
18 that we require for them.
19 In the meantime, our focus has been
20 making sure that we convert the DOT fleet
21 where we can, and so we've focused on the
22 light-duty fleet. We're almost in
23 compliance. We're very close; we're almost,
24 I think, about 75 percent. But within the
287
1 time period -- I think we've got another
2 couple of years to finish the conversion.
3 We're working on that. But then we'll focus
4 on the medium and the heavy-duty as well.
5 But our conversations are ongoing with
6 the OEMs to see exactly how quickly we can
7 convert our fleet to make it safe.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Okay, thank
9 you.
10 And then my next question would be for
11 the Governor's planned 4.3 percent increase
12 in housing stock on Long Island within a half
13 a mile of a train station. And, knowing how
14 congested the parking is at the train
15 stations as it is, and what other towns
16 within the state have done as far as
17 eliminating a requirement for
18 transit-oriented development housing, how
19 that would affect the state roads on
20 Long Island for not only the commuters --
21 would there be the state investment in new
22 parking so that if the developer does not
23 have to provide it, that there will be
24 parking for the commuters as well as the
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1 hundreds of apartments or thousands of
2 apartments that will be built around train
3 stations?
4 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So we've
5 had success on Long Island working with the
6 Long Island Rail Road to look at what all of
7 those options are, whether it's parking,
8 additional mobility, additional literally not
9 just parking, so it's not just cars, there's
10 also bike and ped access opportunities.
11 So as the density of the housing is
12 compiled, how do you make sure that you've
13 got access across the board. So it will be a
14 little bit more of a holistic approach.
15 We've already had direct conversations,
16 multiple conversations with the housing
17 authority, the housing commission, HCR, to
18 make sure that as this gets developed, it's
19 more comprehensive.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
22 Senate?
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
24 Senator Gonzalez.
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1 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Hi, Commissioner.
2 Thank you so much for being here.
3 I also want to thank the chairs. As
4 this is my first hearing, I am finding both
5 how long and how hard it can be to run these.
6 But I wanted to echo, you know, what
7 Assemblymember Gallagher mentioned and
8 Senator Gounardes. I represent the northern
9 part of the BQE. And as we've spoken about
10 before, from an environmental justice and
11 environmental racism perspective, there is
12 particular concern in our communities.
13 So I'm curious, we've talked a lot
14 about how working with the federal government
15 on funding and then working with the city on
16 reimagining, truly and deeply reimagining
17 what it can be. But if you are willing to
18 commit to working with us and our communities
19 on proposals led by our communities, like
20 BQGreen, that account for these environmental
21 justice factors, and also ask you if you have
22 any plans as the commissioner and as the
23 state-level DOT to address these issues or
24 investigate them further.
290
1 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So we've
2 had multiple conversations over the course of
3 a long period of time. But fundamentally, I
4 think that we have an opportunity with regard
5 to environmental justice across the board.
6 And you see the level of commitment from
7 New York State DOT in projects across
8 New York City.
9 And I'll point to Hunts Point,
10 literally trying to address decades of trucks
11 on the roads. And the three-phase,
12 multi-billion-dollar project that we've got
13 to help take trucks off the road and make it
14 more efficient for freight to move through
15 New York City is just one example.
16 So the opportunity now with regard to
17 the BQE is really how do you define -- and
18 the EIS process allows you to do that: What
19 are some of the alternatives that need to be
20 looked at. And so that's why I'm emphasizing
21 this opportunity to work with the City DOT,
22 because that's what the environmental process
23 is intended to do, look at what all the
24 possible alternatives are as you look at the
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1 project writ large.
2 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Thank you so much
3 for that.
4 And on another note, you know, a
5 couple of weeks ago I stood with several
6 community organizations in support of Sammy's
7 Law, and then recently I had a press
8 conference around a death, recent death in my
9 district, in Astoria, that was due to unsafe,
10 you know, liens. I know that's a city issue,
11 but we talked and you talked also about more
12 Complete Streets and safer streets.
13 But I am curious, you know, as we push
14 to pass Sammy's Law and as working across
15 city and state adds another layer, right,
16 of -- or another barrier between getting
17 those streets actually safer for
18 pedestrians -- you know, are you willing to
19 work with the city or at least give some more
20 flexibility for the city or control on the
21 city level so that they don't have to go
22 through the state for some of these?
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Hold that answer.
24 You will get back to Senator Gonzalez
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1 afterwards. Okay? You agree?
2 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Okay, fair.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes, good. Thank
4 you.
5 Oh, Assemblywoman, sorry.
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman
7 Fahy.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you.
9 Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you
10 for being here. I know it's been a long
11 afternoon, so forgive me if a couple of these
12 have been asked already.
13 First, I just want to start by saying
14 thank you for your responsiveness on I-787,
15 with reimagining that. It's something I'm
16 immensely proud of, is securing that
17 5 million in the budget, and look forward to
18 our continuing to work together on that. So
19 I just want to get that on the record, and
20 really appreciate your responsiveness there,
21 as well as our traffic-calming work on
22 Route 156.
23 A couple of -- three questions, and
24 I'll just throw them out, knowing the time is
293
1 short.
2 The 25 mile per hour, the ability for
3 towns to lower speed limits, was a bill that
4 was passed last year. Have any towns taken
5 that up, or have you seen any traction there?
6 Unrelated to this is the question of
7 fuel taxes. We know that they make up about
8 29 percent of state highway funds. Any --
9 and yet with -- as we move hopefully
10 aggressively toward E-vehicles, electric
11 vehicles, is there a plan to make up that
12 revenue in the future, and any thoughts about
13 how that might be done?
14 And then a very short one, I hope, is
15 the child safety zones. Again, legislation
16 that was passed last year. Child safety
17 zones with school buses. And if -- what the
18 status of those regs might be.
19 So any of those that you can take up.
20 And I just wanted to echo some of the
21 comments as well before I stop, the concerns
22 about the electric bikes and storage,
23 particularly some of the fires. And also
24 would welcome working with you, because I
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1 think they're a critical part of this
2 micro-mobility that you referenced earlier.
3 And I do hope we can find some solutions,
4 because it is essential and it is a growing
5 and popular form of transportation.
6 And I hope -- happy to repeat any of
7 those questions, Commissioner, if at all
8 helpful.
9 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Thank
10 you, Assemblymember.
11 I'll start with the child safety zone
12 legislation. So we've been working -- the
13 Legislature passed, we have gone to work with
14 SED to make sure that we've got a regulatory
15 framework that we've drafted. We're working
16 with them to get it -- you know, to work with
17 them on making sure that we have to partner
18 with them. So we're hoping that we get
19 something soon. But that level of engagement
20 and communication is ongoing with SED to put
21 that out, and I hope it's sooner than --
22 sooner rather than later.
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Terrific.
24 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So I have
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1 to tell you that we've literally rolled up
2 our sleeves right away and got on that as
3 soon as you passed it.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you.
5 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: With
6 regard to the 25-mile-an-hour speed limits on
7 towns, I would have to actually ask, I don't
8 know which towns have actually taken
9 advantage of that. I don't know, but I'll be
10 happy to get back to you.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Sure. I know
12 we're running out of time. And we may need
13 to look at some incentives for that. I
14 understand it's a little more complicated
15 than the bill we passed.
16 And I guess you got saved by that last
17 question on --
18 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Okay.
19 And I'll get back to you on the last one.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: -- fuel taxes.
21 But maybe somebody else will ask that.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
23 Senate?
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you.
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1 Thank you, Chair.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Roxanne
3 Persaud.
4 SENATOR PERSAUD: Can you hear me now?
5 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I can.
6 SENATOR PERSAUD: Great.
7 Thank you, Commissioner. I think I'm
8 the only one whose office you weren't in,
9 because I think I -- my appointment, you were
10 stuck in my colleague's office, I was told.
11 So I hope my appointment will be rescheduled.
12 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Please
13 forgive me.
14 SENATOR PERSAUD: Thank you.
15 I would like to find out from you the
16 process for having sound barriers or the
17 green sound barriers that you were talking
18 about installed, because across my district,
19 certain areas across the district, there's a
20 desperate need for that. When the Mill Basin
21 Drawbridge was lifted, no one took into
22 consideration the noise impact. And now
23 we're suffering through that. And DOT has
24 not revisited the request that was made to
297
1 install some kind of sound barrier.
2 And also along other parts of the
3 Belt Parkway, there's a desperate need for
4 that. What has happened, as more houses were
5 built closer to the parkway, the level -- the
6 noise pollution has increased, and no one is
7 really addressing that. What is the DOT
8 doing to address that? And, you know, as
9 we're building closer to highways, is there a
10 plan in place that DOT will say: As you
11 build, you must install these sound barriers?
12 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So we
13 definitely look at it as part of projects
14 that we execute. And actually that's --
15 that's exactly where we look at it. So as we
16 look to improve roadways, et cetera, we look
17 at what the noise implications are and
18 oftentimes do studies to make sure that what
19 we're about to remediate is actually what
20 needs to be done.
21 And so it's usually done directly,
22 especially if we're using federal funds in
23 connection with the documentation and the
24 requirements that we have to meet through the
298
1 federal process to leverage those dollars.
2 So sometimes it does -- we can't go -- it
3 limits us in our ability to go back after a
4 project's been completed.
5 So -- but I will be happy to follow up
6 with you, ma'am, and make sure you have a
7 decision --
8 SENATOR PERSAUD: Okay, in certain
9 areas.
10 And, you know, my colleagues are all
11 talking about education, road safety
12 education. I spoke with your deputy also
13 that the need is great. NYPD I know this
14 week put out a video talking about turning --
15 you know, telling the community about the
16 importance of the speed limit when you're
17 turning.
18 What is DOT doing to ensure that we
19 are educating the public on road safety?
20 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Well,
21 I've -- I very much appreciate your question
22 because we are very passionate about it. In
23 fact, one of the things that we're doing is
24 investing in our own capability to make sure
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1 that we have -- we do a lot of videos, we do
2 a lot of direct education when we put in
3 roundabouts and other safety features. We
4 want to make sure that we educate the public
5 on what this means and how you actually
6 operate.
7 SENATOR PERSAUD: Thank you.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
9 Assembly.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
11 Durso.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN DURSO: Thank you,
13 Commissioner. Good to see you in person.
14 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: You too.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN DURSO: So just a question
16 that we had discussed briefly.
17 The New York State DOT Pavement
18 Condition Report that was provided to the
19 Legislature from your office, in regards to
20 specifically Long Island, shows a 6 percent
21 decline of pavement in good or excellent
22 condition on Long Island for 2020-2021, and
23 more than a 20 percent decline since 2017 do.
24 You know what we could really attribute that
300
1 to as far as why the road conditions have
2 gone down so much on Long Island?
3 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I think
4 that basically those numbers reflect the
5 conditions before we actually put in about
6 $121 million last year on the roadways in
7 Long Island, improving 442 lane miles.
8 So my expectation is those numbers
9 would go up based on current data.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN DURSO: Is there enough
11 funding currently in this budget right now,
12 and with the monies set for the next five
13 years, to get those conditions back up to
14 par, essentially?
15 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: We have
16 money dedicated through the five-year capital
17 plan. Additional paving will absolutely be
18 done in Long Island, and that's been
19 designated. We've got the Northern State
20 Parkway about to start soon.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN DURSO: Okay. And then
22 just my last question to follow that up with.
23 So with obviously a possible influx of
24 people coming to live on Long Island,
301
1 obviously projects that are being done on
2 Long Island, and also electric vehicles,
3 which weigh a substantial amount more than
4 gas vehicles, and that being something of the
5 future of where we're going, do you think
6 that the roads on Long Island -- which were
7 not originally built, obviously, to handle
8 that much traffic. It was really supposed to
9 be more of a vacation place.
10 Do you think that the roads that are
11 currently in place on Long Island can handle
12 the influx of more people, more school buses,
13 heavier vehicles and more projects that are
14 going on?
15 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So one of
16 the things that we factor for at DOT is the
17 weight of what a road can withstand. And
18 right now our factor is, I think -- and I
19 could be wrong; I'll correct it for the
20 record if I am -- but I think it's about
21 80,000 pounds. So right now even the
22 heaviest electric school bus doesn't even
23 weigh that, let alone any other, you know,
24 multi-use vehicle.
302
1 So the bottom -- we're building
2 according to what the standards are and, as
3 things change and the weight levels change,
4 we'll adjust accordingly. But our
5 engineering standards are built for -- to
6 make sure that there's durability in what
7 we're putting down.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN DURSO: So you think, in
9 your opinion, that the Long Island roads will
10 be able to handle the influx of people and
11 new types of vehicles?
12 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Look, I
13 think that there's multiple factors that go
14 into our road condition: The age, the
15 weather, the climate. Last year alone, part
16 of the reason why we saw such degradation on
17 the roads in Long Island is because we had
18 extreme temperature fluxes. It was
19 freeze-thaw, freeze-thaw, freeze-thaw. And
20 so it just beat up the roads. And that's why
21 we have to constantly look at it.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN DURSO: Thank you,
23 Commissioner. Appreciate it.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Ranker Tom O'Mara
303
1 for five minutes.
2 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you,
3 Commissioner. Good evening already,
4 unfortunately.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Not that bad.
6 SENATOR O'MARA: Yup, okay.
7 I just want to express my concerns, as
8 has been stated many times here, with the
9 flat level of the CHIPS and other local roads
10 programs. Certainly in light of the
11 inflationary times that we've had, and the
12 increase in oil prices, asphalt prices,
13 gasoline prices has really eaten into the
14 ability of our local governments to keep up
15 with their programs.
16 So I think that that should be
17 increased, and I'll be working towards that
18 throughout this budget process over the next
19 month.
20 I want to ask you again, as I think I
21 ask every year, about our local rural transit
22 systems and the impact they were hit with
23 several years ago with non-emergency Medicaid
24 transportation being really taken off of them
304
1 and distributed to taxis and other individual
2 ride services. Which seems to be in
3 opposition to what the whole goals of the
4 state are, is to increase use of public
5 transit and less individual rides.
6 So -- but yet this continues. And the
7 rural public transit systems have suffered as
8 a result of this loss of ridership for years.
9 And we've had a Band-Aid approach where we
10 try to give them some money every year. It's
11 never enough. We're still seeing routes
12 reduced, some counties eliminating their
13 public transit altogether.
14 What's your position on our rural
15 public transit? And should we be getting
16 these non-emergency Medicaid rides back into
17 the public transit system, as opposed to the
18 private car service?
19 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So I'll
20 address the first issue with regard to the
21 Medicaid reimbursement process. I think, you
22 know, it's been a struggle for the transit
23 systems. And one of the ways that we were
24 trying to alleviate that is to work directly
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1 with the Department of Health and look at how
2 we can flex these federal dollars in ways
3 that meet the demand from the customers that
4 they're trying to service. And one of those
5 is giving them a little bit more flexibility
6 in an on-demand service as opposed to a
7 permanent service that may or may not be
8 utilized in the way that it's intended. In
9 other words, the usership goes up and down
10 and up and down and up and down.
11 But the question is is how can we
12 create some of those innovative ways of
13 addressing public transit, particularly in
14 rural areas. And that's what I think the
15 intent is behind -- I know the intent is
16 behind the Executive's proposal for this
17 Innovative Mobility Fund, to look at how do
18 we work with rural communities to address the
19 public transit issues.
20 So it's a good way to start. We've
21 got an opportunity for the seven systems
22 upstate as well as some of the more rural
23 communities. The other thing is last year
24 the Legislature passed a rural transit
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1 working group, and we would love to get going
2 on that and start to explore some of the
3 different ways that we can make all of -- we
4 can look at what the opportunities are for
5 rural transit.
6 SENATOR O'MARA: I was pushing that
7 legislation for that working group since the
8 time of the change to the Medicaid answering
9 service, and it took years to get that
10 legislation passed. And now at least we're
11 supposedly requiring them to meet. It still
12 hasn't been done yet. It needs to be done.
13 What in this budget, fiscally, is
14 going to help our rural public transit
15 systems?
16 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Well,
17 there's the dedicated money that goes
18 directly upstate to the transit systems, and
19 that money is actually increased this year.
20 So let me give you the number here really
21 quickly. For some reason it's escaping me
22 right now.
23 But the bottom line is is that we've
24 actually looked at -- and overall I believe
307
1 it's an 8 percent increase in the upstate
2 transit dollars that we've had. So again,
3 being able to leverage that investment across
4 the board for all of the transit services.
5 SENATOR O'MARA: Okay, thank you.
6 I'll look for that. I didn't notice that.
7 But my time has expired. Thank you.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
9 Assembly.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman Ra
11 for five minutes.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Good afternoon,
13 Commissioner. Thank you for being here with
14 us.
15 I just had a couple of questions in
16 and around the district I represent.
17 One was a constituent recently reached
18 out to the office regarding Hempstead
19 Turnpike, and, you know, we reached out to
20 DOT regarding this. A few years ago, I think
21 right before COVID, there had been a
22 resurfacing project really on the western end
23 of things, but I think there's an area that
24 was not part of that. So I'd just ask if you
308
1 can go back and take a look at that. It's
2 West Hempstead, in particular in the
3 Cathedral Gardens area as you get towards the
4 Village of Hempstead.
5 I've had a lot of constituent
6 complaints regarding that, and your staff was
7 kind enough at the time when it was coming
8 through the Franklin Square area, to, you
9 know, meet with our local civic associations
10 and just let them know what was going on, and
11 that was much appreciated. So if you could
12 just --
13 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Happy to.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: -- you know, follow
15 up with our office regarding that particular
16 issue.
17 The other one is, as I'm sure you're
18 aware, and we've been through many
19 iterations, and I think we have discussed in
20 past budget years, this specific location.
21 The interchange is further up Hempstead
22 Turnpike, in the vicinity of the Nassau Hub
23 property, where the Meadowbrook meets
24 Hempstead Turnpike. There are several
309
1 interchanges in the area. And there is now a
2 proposal for a fairly sizable development
3 that may or may not include a casino at that
4 Nassau Hub property.
5 And I'm just wondering -- I know we're
6 in the infant stages of that, but if there's
7 been any dialogue with prospective developers
8 as to what might be needed from an
9 infrastructure standpoint to finally upgrade
10 some of those interchanges if there is going
11 to be an increase of people coming into that
12 area.
13 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I would
14 be happy to circle back with you as I do some
15 more -- touch base with our folks on
16 Long Island and see -- they may have already
17 started to take a look at this.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay. And then the
19 last thing -- and again, I think this is
20 something we've discussed in the past. I
21 know you gave an answer to one of my
22 colleagues earlier about the current state of
23 the roads in the state in terms of which ones
24 were up to par and maybe below that.
310
1 Is there a formal document -- my
2 understanding is there is some type of report
3 that's supposed to be given to the
4 Legislature. If there is one, if that can be
5 provided -- you know, that goes through our
6 state highways and the current state of
7 repair of them?
8 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes,
9 there's a Bridge and Pavement Condition
10 Report which we publish, and we're in the
11 process of pulling together this year's. But
12 last year's is available.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay, great. When
14 would this year's be available?
15 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I'm
16 hoping sometime in the next couple of months.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay. Great. Well,
18 I will leave a couple of extra minutes on the
19 clock. Thank you.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Hi. I'm going to take my time with
23 you now. Not 10 minutes worth, trust me.
24 So in the materials you submitted,
311
1 we're talking about 130 -- oh, my --
2 (Lights went out.)
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Well, let's --
4 obviously no one liked that question, so
5 we'll --
6 (Laughter.)
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: No panic.
8 Somebody will figure out how to turn the
9 lights back on. Somebody might have leaned
10 against a wall incorrectly -- aha.
11 (Lights restored.)
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: A plot, or just
13 someone leaning against the wall wrong. I
14 knew it, Heath. I've been around a long
15 time.
16 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Just so
17 long as this is not some Agatha Christie --
18 (Laughter.)
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Not to worry, the
20 Canadians are not attacking.
21 (Laughter.)
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: That's always my
23 theory, that somehow we're going to go to war
24 with Canada and they're going to show up
312
1 here. Sorry. I have to stop that. Let's
2 try again.
3 So we're talking about 32 billion more
4 in capital over five years, and we're talking
5 about 13.5 billion from the feds in highway
6 and bridge formula aid. So help me
7 understand why some of my colleagues think
8 that funding is staying flat for roads and
9 bridges.
10 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: It's not.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: It can't be
12 staying flat with that much money being
13 added.
14 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: It's not.
15 There's been an infusion, a significant
16 infusion of dollars, when you match the
17 federal dollars with the state dollars.
18 And honestly, I mean, I should have
19 started off with this, but a big thank you to
20 the Legislature and to Governor Hochul. The
21 level of stability that has been provided for
22 transportation funding is truly remarkable.
23 I've worked in transportation my whole
24 career, and to have this level, a five-year
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1 capital plan that we can execute on, you
2 know, is -- it's really a -- it's a great
3 place to be.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So sometimes some
5 programs might appear to stay flat because
6 other programs have shown up and are, you
7 know, new programs, that they're called
8 something new. So even if somebody's
9 describing a specific line is staying flat,
10 it is your argument that there is more
11 capital money for all these types of programs
12 for roads and bridges at the state level and
13 at the local level. Is that a fair
14 statement?
15 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: There was
16 an increase in the CHIPS last year, but then
17 we also added to the pavement improvement and
18 highway -- local highway programs along the
19 way. We included -- Governor Hochul included
20 a new program called Pave Our Potholes. I
21 know Senator Kennedy was a big advocate for
22 the State Touring Routes the year before.
23 And so there's multiple opportunities now for
24 local governments in particular to actually
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1 take advantage and really advance the
2 investment across the board in our roads and
3 bridges.
4 And as I said before, 200 million now,
5 as opposed to 100 million in the bridge
6 program.
7 And in the first year of the
8 five-years capital program, I want to assure
9 you that NYSDOT has literally -- we've put
10 forward $3.1 billion in state and local
11 projects. So we're getting the money out the
12 door and we're putting it to work, and it's
13 creating jobs, and that's matched with the
14 federal funding at about $1.8 billion.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And then in your
16 testimony on page 2 you also reference "and
17 more than 8 billion will support transit
18 systems statewide, including both on- and
19 off-budget resources, which are critical to
20 providing alternate models of transportation
21 to the public."
22 So given the discussion with the
23 MTA -- it feels like days ago, but that was
24 just a few hours ago -- tell me what that
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1 8 billion in mass transit is going for.
2 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So what
3 that goes for, the 8 billion is -- MTA's
4 going to receive 8 billion. The total
5 operating assistance from the state is
6 9.1 billion: 8 billion to the MTA, and
7 non-MTA downstate suburban systems,
8 meaning -- are going to receive about
9 522 million, which is an increase of
10 40 million from last year. And the upstate
11 systems are going to receive 286, almost
12 $287 million, which is an increase of
13 7 percent from last year.
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And is the
15 8 billion for the MTA region and
16 billion-something for the rest of the state,
17 is that over five-year capital or in this
18 coming year capital?
19 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: This is
20 annual operating, just for this year.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry, say
22 that one more time?
23 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Annual
24 operating.
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1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Annual operating.
2 But this -- in your testimony you say
3 it's capital, the 8 billion. So do you mean
4 operating or capital?
5 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: It might
6 have been miswritten. But it's 8 billion in
7 traditional operating aid.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. In your
9 page 2 of your testimony you have a subtitle
10 "The Capital Plan," and then a set of bullets
11 that I assumed meant for capital. But the
12 8 billion listed here is not for capital?
13 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: No. It's
14 for -- the 9.1 billion is for operating
15 support for all statewide transit systems,
16 and it breaks out that MTA is going to
17 receive 8 billion for operating aid -- which
18 is a combination of appropriated and
19 non-appropriated resources -- and the other
20 non-MTA systems are going to receive
21 809 million in annual operating assistance.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. So --
23 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Which
24 breaks out to be, again, 522 million for
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1 non-MTA downstate and upstate systems at
2 386 million.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. So I don't
4 want to take up the time now, but when you
5 have a chance, go back to your testimony,
6 because it appears to be capital money. And
7 you talk about the five-year capital plan in
8 the second paragraph of this section, and
9 then list things out in the third paragraph.
10 So that's why I'm confused, because I
11 thought that must be capital money.
12 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I'll be
13 sure to correct it.
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay, thank you.
15 So there's a lot of reference I think
16 both in some of my colleagues' questions and
17 in the testimony to all the money being spent
18 improving our roads and bridges and improving
19 the condition of our roads and bridges to be
20 in good repair. So will everybody be in
21 better repair when we're done with this
22 five-year investment than it was before?
23 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes.
24 Yes.
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1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And is there sort
2 of a standard of measurement that DOT uses
3 for that so that you'll look around and go,
4 Oh, look, the potholes are done, the bridges
5 aren't falling down, people have roads when
6 they didn't have roads?
7 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So we are
8 constantly assessing the conditions of our
9 roads. And we do an enormous amount of data
10 collection using all kinds of systems from
11 LiDAR and other technologies to make sure
12 that we understand what the condition of the
13 roadway is. We measure it, we calculate it,
14 we make sure that it's a complete asset
15 management process.
16 So when you talk about literally
17 tracking the condition of the roadways,
18 that's how we assess it. It's data driven.
19 And so yes.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And that kind of
21 information is publicly available so
22 legislators can see that and say, okay, over
23 here in my district, look at the improved
24 state of repair for my roads and bridges?
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1 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Yes.
2 It's a constant process and one that's
3 completely dependent on weather and age of
4 the system and use.
5 But that said, we're constantly
6 investing in this level of investment that
7 the Executive has provided, and the
8 Legislature. With this 32.8 billion total in
9 our capital program, we expect that it will
10 indeed help over the course of five years the
11 state of our roads and our bridges.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. I
13 cede back my 2½ minutes.
14 Assembly?
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
16 Palmesano.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Hello,
18 Commissioner.
19 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Hello,
20 sir.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Good to see
22 you again.
23 I have more of a brief statement,
24 point to make, to you and to my colleagues as
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1 well.
2 As you know, 90 percent of the local
3 roads are not eligible for any of the federal
4 dollars that came in through the federal
5 plan. And a lot of our projects are not
6 signature projects throughout the local
7 communities, like I-81, like the Bronx
8 project, or Buffalo.
9 And given the fact that, you know,
10 fuel costs are up 256 percent, asphalt costs
11 are up 77 percent, steel costs are up
12 115 percent, and we went three hours on the
13 MTA budget talking about how that's the
14 lifeblood of the downstate transportation
15 network, the fact of the matter is -- and to
16 my colleagues, we've said this over and
17 over -- CHIPS is the lifeblood of our upstate
18 transportation network. It's not getting an
19 increase.
20 These costs, these inflationary costs
21 are hammering these local communities, which
22 will basically be on the local property
23 taxpayer to deal with this now. So we should
24 be making a stronger commitment and
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1 investment to CHIPS.
2 So now to my question. I know you're
3 a member of the Climate Action Council and
4 there's a big push by this Governor and the
5 members and my colleagues, some up here, to
6 push for electrification. And that
7 electrification is going to be good for the
8 environment, it's going to be good for our
9 overall emissions. But the fact of the
10 matter is mining these materials has a
11 significant impact on the environment. We've
12 seen in countries in Africa and Asia where
13 there's water pollution, but also, in the
14 Democratic Republic of Congo, where they're
15 using child labor to mine for these
16 materials, these cobalts that are used to
17 make lithium ion batteries. These children,
18 it's well documented, children are dying,
19 they're being maimed, they're being
20 paralyzed.
21 Don't you as the commissioner and
22 doesn't the Governor have a responsibility,
23 if we're going to be working to move to full
24 electrification, don't we have an obligation
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1 to lead on this and make sure that materials
2 that are being sourced to produce these
3 batteries -- which right now is being used
4 with these kids as child labor, using child
5 labor to produce these batteries -- shouldn't
6 we take a step back and say we're not going
7 to move forward with this unless you can
8 demonstrate and document child labor isn't
9 being used to produce these materials, to
10 produce these batteries? Don't we have an
11 obligation, if we're going to lead on climate
12 change, to also lead on human rights and
13 child labor violations, which is well
14 documented?
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
16 To close for the Senate, Tim Kennedy,
17 second -- oh, I'm sorry, you have 49 seconds.
18 Excuse me. I'm so sorry.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: She has time
20 to answer it.
21 SENATOR KENNEDY: I'll take it.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: No, no, no, Tim
23 won't take it.
24 Please.
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1 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: I
2 think -- I'm not familiar, sir, with what
3 you're talking about with regard to the
4 production.
5 But I will tell you that it's been my
6 experience working in New York State that
7 there's a great deal of thought that's put
8 into everything that we look at. Certainly
9 in the materials that we source, whether
10 it's, you know, the Buy American provisions,
11 how we work with organized labor, how we
12 actually get our work done.
13 So the level of what we actually need
14 to do in terms of our climate agenda is
15 pretty significant. And we're leading the
16 nation right now with regard to that. And I
17 think that there's opportunity along the way
18 as we define what those are, to make sure
19 that we look at it holistically.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: But we
21 shouldn't be using child labor to do it,
22 should we? Right?
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You got to
24 answer, and I apologize for cutting you off
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1 before letting her answer.
2 And now, to close for the Senate Dems,
3 Tim Kennedy for his second round, three
4 minutes.
5 SENATOR KENNEDY: Thank you,
6 Commissioner, again, and thank you for your
7 leadership. You know, we're talking about a
8 lot today. I really appreciate our work
9 together, and you do a tremendous job.
10 Although, you know, we do have our
11 disagreements and I think this question about
12 funding is one of those disagreements.
13 Look, we've put a lot of money into
14 roads, a historic level. I agree with all of
15 that. A historic $32.8 billion over five
16 years, historic levels for PAVE-NY, BRIDGE
17 NY, Pave Our Potholes program, a new program
18 there, the Touring Routes program -- all
19 wonderful stuff. The money's flowing, we're
20 happy about that. But I submit and I stand
21 by the fact that when we take that funding
22 compared to the inflation numbers that we're
23 seeing, 16 to 20 percent, the moment that we
24 passed that bill that was historic levels of
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1 funding, it was still underfunded. That's
2 why the Senate Democratic Conference spoke to
3 another $10 billion necessary for this
4 program.
5 We'll continue these deliberations
6 moving forward. I just want to make it clear
7 that there is still work to be done for more
8 funds, and we look forward to working with
9 you on that.
10 That being said, I want to talk a
11 little bit about STOA. You alluded to it, we
12 talked about it -- we talked about a lot
13 today. I want to get right to it because
14 there's only a million and a half left here.
15 STOA have increased by 7 percent; you
16 mentioned that. Again, we need more than
17 that. The New York State Public Transit
18 Association, who will be speaking later, is
19 looking for 20 percent. All other respective
20 authorities across New York State are looking
21 for another 20 percent.
22 This is operational funds. We are
23 seeing dedicated resources going to the MTA.
24 We don't see a new revenue source going to
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1 upstate non-MTA transit. So we would like to
2 rectify that number. Pleased to see it
3 moving in the right direction; 7 percent's
4 great. We think we need to get 20 percent or
5 as close to that 20 percent as possible.
6 You could speak to that if you'd like,
7 but I also want to just mention one other
8 thing about the $5 million for a program
9 advancing projects that utilize Complete
10 Streets. You mentioned it earlier. The
11 Governor signed the law that I passed, along
12 with Assemblywoman Fahy, recently. We're
13 excited about that. There's $5 million in
14 the budget about moving forward with
15 Complete Streets.
16 Can you talk about how the DOT is
17 going to use those funds? You know, what's
18 the process, that $5 million for the
19 Complete Streets program.
20 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So the
21 way that we're looking at it -- so thank you
22 for your leadership and that of
23 Assemblymember Fahy on the Complete Streets
24 bill.
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1 The $5 million that's included in the
2 Executive Budget actually starts to go
3 towards some planning and really looking
4 at -- recognizing that the implementation
5 doesn't occur until the end of this year,
6 take that initial $5 million and start to
7 plan out how we can -- how we can move
8 forward. Because the legislation as you
9 passed it really is for locals, and how do we
10 start to reconcile those.
11 SENATOR KENNEDY: So will
12 municipalities be able to tap into that
13 $5 million for studies?
14 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: We're
15 defining that now.
16 SENATOR KENNEDY: Okay, thank you.
17 And STOA, would you like to speak on
18 that STOA question that I mentioned?
19 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: With
20 regard to STOA, I just -- you know, you all
21 had a great chance to talk to the MTA. The
22 fundamental difference between the MTA and
23 their sourcing, you talked to them about
24 their financing, what they're looking at,
328
1 what they're drawing from. It's a -- what
2 I'm talking -- in other words, local taxes,
3 additional revenues that they can pull from.
4 Upstate, what we're talking about is
5 straight-out state-level funding coming
6 from -- for state operating assistance.
7 There's not the same level of fees and taxes
8 that can be drawn from localities to support
9 upstate operations. And so it's really
10 apples and oranges in terms of being able to
11 draw from dedicated funding sources. There's
12 just not the same level of dedicated funding
13 for upstate.
14 SENATOR KENNEDY: Well, thank you, and
15 I look forward to our work together and
16 rectifying that percentage. Thank you.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
18 Assembly.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: I think I'm
20 it. This will be the end.
21 First of all, I'd like to let everyone
22 know that Assemblyman Jensen has joined us as
23 well at the hearing.
24 Just a couple of questions to bring
329
1 this to an end, I guess. First of all, thank
2 you for being here and answering our
3 questions for a couple of hours. This is --
4 thank you.
5 I'd like to reiterate what Senator
6 Kennedy said, though, as far as local monies:
7 CHIPS, PAVE-NY, BRIDGE NY, all of those
8 things. I do believe that we need more
9 monies into those pots for what is going
10 right now. And also STOA, we need more money
11 there too. And if you're saying we don't
12 have enough dedicated funding, then give me
13 some ideas of where we can allocate some
14 dedicated funding to these organizations.
15 I think mass transit is absolutely
16 essential to what we want to do as far as
17 climate control is, you know, going forward.
18 So without those kinds of monies I don't see
19 how we build out these systems at all. I
20 don't.
21 I also know that there's money in here
22 for new electric buses and things like that,
23 but not enough. It's nowhere near enough.
24 So, you know, I don't know exactly
330
1 where we're going with all of that. Just
2 wanted to say that, put it on the record.
3 The questions that I have for you,
4 though, deal with staffing. I've heard this
5 in a number of different areas. This is our
6 first hearing, budget hearing, but I'm
7 hearing it almost on every agency. I want to
8 know how it's affecting the DOT, how it's
9 affecting your being able to use these monies
10 that we're receiving from the federal
11 government, using monies that we're putting
12 into the budget. Are we going to be able to
13 do what we say we're going to do with the
14 staffing that we have?
15 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Well, I
16 think, like every entity, corporation, public
17 service entity, et cetera, across the nation,
18 we've all seen a peak on Baby Boomers
19 retiring. And so New York State DOT is not
20 immune from that, I'm sure you'll hear it
21 across the board.
22 One of the things that the Executive
23 did was put forward some very good look at
24 Civil Service on how we can really enhance
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1 our recruiting and retention for state
2 employees, which is --
3 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: And are you
4 going to take part in what the Governor is
5 proclaiming here about Civil Service and
6 redoing some of the classifications, et
7 cetera? Because we're finding this across
8 the board, not only with our roads and
9 bridges, but with aviation, for sure. I've
10 got real problems.
11 So, I mean, those are things that we
12 need to look at.
13 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: So I want
14 to first assure you that we have the people
15 to do the work, fundamentally.
16 Secondly, I do look forward to the
17 Executive's proposals because it's an issue
18 that affects every business, and I applaud
19 the Governor for her leadership on looking at
20 the state workforce.
21 And -- but just know, what we've got
22 right now in terms of the programs, the
23 policies, we're always looking to recruit
24 more engineers, more planners, more, you
332
1 know, geotech folks, you name it. But the
2 bottom line is is we've got a great workforce
3 at DOT, very experienced, very seasoned. And
4 they're ready, capable and are actually
5 executing on that capital plan.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: I heard a new
7 term last week that I -- I've heard similar
8 ones, but the new one was the Silver Wave.
9 And, you know, I thought just meant older
10 gentlemen like me, the Silver Wave. But it's
11 the retirement age. People are retiring and
12 that's causing a problem in a lot of areas,
13 especially engineering.
14 We'll do this off -- you know, outside
15 of the hearing, but I'd like to hear about
16 that $10 million pilot program in support of
17 innovative transit mobility. That's
18 something I wanted in the budget last year, I
19 had a bill for it. But mine was $10 million
20 for two pilot projects; I think you're doing
21 it over like ten $1 million projects or
22 something like that. So I'm not really sure
23 how that works, and I'll talk to you about it
24 as we go on. Okay?
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1 DOT COMMISSIONER DOMINGUEZ: Okay.
2 I wanted to address your one question
3 with regard to electrification. And there is
4 opportunity specifically for school buses in
5 the Environmental Bond Act to help pay for
6 that. So I'm sure you're aware of that, but
7 I just wanted to flag it.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Okay. Not
9 enough. Okay, thank you very much,
10 Commissioner. I think that ends this part of
11 our hearing, and we appreciate it.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes. Thank you.
13 We do appreciate it, thank you.
14 And for people who are keeping score,
15 we are moving on to the third and fourth
16 testifiers today: The New York State
17 Department of Motor Vehicles, Mark Schroeder;
18 and the New York State Thruway Authority,
19 Frank Hoare. We'll give everybody a few
20 minutes to move into position.
21 And don't take it personally, I think
22 much of the Assembly had to go to conference,
23 so I think they'll only have a few or a fewer
24 number of Assemblymembers repping for a
334
1 while. I'm not telling them to leave for
2 conference, trust me, but there's a rumor
3 that there's a conference out there
4 somewhere.
5 (Off the record.)
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So if we could
7 ask people who are moving on to move on and
8 people who are coming to sit, to sit. And
9 then people who want to have conversations,
10 take them out in the hallway, please. Thank
11 you. You can come back after you've finished
12 chatting with each other.
13 Okay. So now that it's 3:00 in the
14 afternoon -- oh, excuse me, 5:00 in the
15 afternoon, thank you for being here with us.
16 And are we going to start with the
17 DMV? Yes, we are. Thank you. So please,
18 Mark, start. And -- oh, sorry -- DMV gets
19 10 minutes, then Thruway Authority gets
20 10 minutes, and then we'll all ask questions.
21 And for anyone who's come in new
22 since -- I was going to call you
23 Senator Magnarelli. Perhaps not.
24 Assemblyman Magnarelli, if you're an
335
1 Assemblymember, you want to let him know if
2 you want to be on the question list. And
3 Senators should let me know or Tom O'Mara
4 know.
5 Please, Mark.
6 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER. Good
7 afternoon. And thank you very much for this
8 opportunity, Chairpersons Krueger, Kennedy,
9 Magnarelli, Weinstein, and other members of
10 the New York State Legislature, for inviting
11 me here today. My name is Mark Schroeder. I
12 am the commissioner of the Department of
13 Motor Vehicles. I also serve as the chair of
14 the Governor's Traffic Safety Committee.
15 When I became the commissioner four
16 years ago, there was no shortage of DMV
17 jokes -- long lines, slow service, outdated
18 technology, you name it. So we embarked on a
19 strategic plan to change how we operate,
20 focused on our customers and employees, first
21 and foremost. We updated our vision
22 statement to reflect our goal of shattering
23 perceptions of the DMV, and we initiated a
24 variety of transformative projects to make it
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1 happen.
2 As I sit here today, I am so proud to
3 say that our progress has not gone unnoticed.
4 Moreover, because of the foundation we laid
5 during the past few years, we are uniquely
6 positioned to build upon our success in
7 fulfillment of Governor Hochul's proposal to
8 enhance and improve access to state
9 government services.
10 So I want to take a moment to share
11 with you just three compliments we recently
12 received from our customers, and I quote:
13 "What an amazing experience! The
14 staff was very kind, welcoming and friendly.
15 Ms. DeJesus was thorough and friendly."
16 Next compliment: "This was the best
17 DMV experience I've had in 30 years! Travis
18 was amazing, helpful, efficient, and
19 incredibly sensitive to my transaction."
20 Last compliment for today: "Makes
21 coming to the DMV fun! Great, quick
22 service -- had all the answers to my
23 questions and took care of my service
24 efficiently." Fun, that's a new one, but
337
1 we'll take it.
2 Every day, every day our customers are
3 reaching out to thank us for improvements we
4 made. And more than 300 times this past
5 year, you and your staff have given us
6 compliments for helping you serve your
7 constituents across New York State.
8 My point is that these comments and so
9 many others like them reflect our ongoing
10 transformation and the commitment of our
11 nearly 3,000 employees. Through some of the
12 toughest times our agency, our state, and our
13 nation have ever seen, DMV employees have not
14 only overcome challenges and loss, but they
15 have also gone far above and beyond to
16 support the critical functions of our agency
17 and the nearly 16 million New Yorkers that we
18 serve each and every year.
19 DMV engages in more than 35 million
20 customer interactions annually and collects
21 approximately $2 billion, $2 billion in
22 yearly revenue. Governor Hochul's
23 Executive Budget plan provides $477.6 million
24 for DMV to support its statewide operations,
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1 Traffic Violation Bureaus, and state- and
2 county-operated offices. One of those
3 locations is our Innovation Center in Albany,
4 where I gave my testimony last year. It has
5 become the test lab for groundbreaking
6 products and services. And just a few weeks
7 ago we opened a satellite innovation center
8 in the Empire State Plaza Concourse to
9 further our goal of meeting customers where
10 they are. Customers, your constituents from
11 all over New York State, come here to see
12 you. They are now our customers in the
13 Concourse.
14 We also remain unwavering in our
15 commitment to providing equitable service to
16 residents, and we strive to make sure our
17 workforce and the vendors who support us are
18 as diverse as our customers. I am thrilled
19 to say that more than 60 percent of our
20 discretionary spending is done through
21 Minority- and Women-Owned Business
22 Enterprises, and 30 percent is done through
23 Service-Disabled Veteran-Owned Businesses,
24 which is five times the amount required by
339
1 law.
2 The DMV also was awarded last year for
3 its consistent support of the state's
4 Preferred Source Program, which employs
5 individuals with disabilities through
6 New York State Industries for the Disabled
7 member agencies.
8 And this past year I had the esteemed
9 privilege of presenting the first New Yorkers
10 with state-issued IDs with "X" gender
11 markers. It was truly an historic moment for
12 DMV and for New York.
13 In accordance with the Governor's
14 proposal in her 2022 State of the State
15 address, the DMV and the Department of
16 Corrections and Community Supervision
17 established a process to provide incarcerated
18 individuals with state-issued IDs prior to
19 their release. We know that a valid identity
20 document is critical for finding quality
21 housing and employment, and we are so proud
22 to support this vital project. We are
23 currently operational in three facilities,
24 with the goal of expanding to 20 facilities
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1 this year.
2 We also continue to work with DOCCS to
3 prepare incarcerated individuals for their
4 return to the workforce, including commercial
5 driver education and automotive technology
6 instruction.
7 The DMV has also proudly been at the
8 forefront of the Governor's decisive actions
9 to address the shortage of truck and bus
10 drivers. Under her leadership, the DMV
11 launched a third-party commercial road test
12 program; expedited the licensing process for
13 qualified drivers; expanded the validity of
14 the Commercial Learner Permit; created
15 resource and study guides; and we are
16 currently working to implement the federal
17 waiver for the "under the hood" portion of
18 the road test, which many of you know about.
19 The Governor's budget plan will enable
20 us to continue these important efforts and
21 many others that will improve overall
22 customer service, promote traffic safety, and
23 protect consumers. Among those projects is
24 our expansion of digital services. We now
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1 have 74 online transactions, including our
2 very successful REAL ID pre-screening
3 process. This new service allows customers
4 to come to our offices fully prepared to
5 complete their transaction in one visit. We
6 call it "one and done." It is just one of
7 many ways we are preparing New Yorkers for
8 the upcoming implementation of the federal
9 REAL ID Act.
10 I also toured 11 airports statewide to
11 get the word out. Many of you joined me, so
12 thank you for that.
13 We also expanded touchless payment
14 options, both in-person and online, and we
15 created a new online transaction to make it
16 easier and cheaper to request DMV records.
17 But we are not stopping there. This
18 fiscal year, we expect to roll out a
19 completely redesigned website and a fully
20 revamped MyDMV customer portal.
21 Additionally, DMV is undertaking a
22 transformation of its customer contact
23 center. This initiative will allow DMV's
24 customers to interact with our agency in the
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1 way they most prefer -- by phone, through
2 live chat, self-service, or email.
3 To achieve our lofty goals,
4 Governor Hochul's Executive Budget continues
5 to invest in our new technology
6 infrastructure. This will allow the
7 department to eventually replace hundreds of
8 legacy systems that are difficult to support
9 and modify, and often restrain innovation.
10 Beyond these operational changes, we
11 also remain committed to improving traffic
12 safety, delivering secure identity documents,
13 and administering the laws you have enacted
14 to promote safety, transparency, and consumer
15 protections. Last year our field
16 investigators and automotive inspectors
17 conducted 87,000 investigations. We also
18 secured restitution for more than
19 570 New York motorists.
20 And our driver license document was
21 nationally recognized for its use of
22 cutting-edge security features proven to
23 reduce counterfeiting and prevent identity
24 theft. We are also committed to working with
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1 tolling authorities, such as the MTA and the
2 Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority, to
3 ensure that motorists who do not pay their
4 tolls are held accountable.
5 In closing, I spoke to you last year
6 about DMV's transformation. I've come now to
7 realize that everything we do at DMV is
8 transformative. Every project we undertake,
9 every engagement we have with the public, and
10 every transaction we complete is truly
11 transformative to the millions of New Yorkers
12 who we serve every year. We have fully
13 embraced being the doorway into state
14 government for most New Yorkers, and I am
15 proud of our continued success and the
16 success we will build on this coming year.
17 I'll answer and entertain any
18 questions you might have.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Okay. Acting
20 Commissioner Frank Hoare, you're next.
21 INTERIM EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR HOARE:
22 Good afternoon, Chair Kennedy, Chair
23 Magnarelli, thank you for this opportunity to
24 address you and speak with you and the
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1 distinguished members of the fiscal and
2 transportation committees.
3 My name is Frank Hoare. For the past
4 two-plus years I've been the general counsel
5 at the New York State Thruway Authority, and
6 for the past six weeks I've also been the
7 interim executive director of the authority.
8 I am joined by Matt Howard, who is the
9 chief financial officer of the Thruway
10 Authority.
11 I have submitted testimony, but in the
12 interests of time, I'm going to just
13 summarize some of the highlights from my
14 testimony.
15 During this period between executive
16 directors, we continue to move ahead with a
17 $412 million capital program for this year,
18 making necessary investments into the Thruway
19 system. The overall 2023 Thruway Authority
20 budget represents a total financial
21 commitment of $1.2 billion. It is a budget
22 that is balanced and provides the resources
23 required to maintain the current levels of
24 maintenance, safety and service that our
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1 customers have come to expect.
2 The Thruway Authority is operated and
3 maintained solely as a user-fee system and is
4 not supported by any federal, state or local
5 taxpayer dollars. Also, we did not receive
6 any portion of the $13 billion that New York
7 received as part of the federal
8 infrastructure funds over the past couple of
9 years.
10 Our toll revenues go directly toward
11 making the Thruway one of the safest highways
12 in the nation.
13 Underscoring its importance to the
14 state and region, the Thruway is a dependable
15 and cost-effective transportation system and
16 serves as a vital link to interstate travel,
17 providing a major route of access to our
18 state's tourism anchors. It's also a
19 principal artery of commerce and serves as a
20 catalyst of the state's economic activity,
21 with 17 percent of our total traffic coming
22 from commercial vehicles and a third of that
23 traffic coming from out of state.
24 A recent transformative project that
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1 spans the entire Thruway is cashless tolling,
2 which went live in November 2020. Since that
3 time we have successfully processed more than
4 744 million transactions. The benefits of
5 cashless tolling include nonstop travel that
6 reduces congestion, improves traffic flow,
7 includes convenient payment methods, and is
8 safer and better for the environment.
9 Since the conversion to cashless,
10 E-ZPass usage continues to increase and is
11 now up to 84 percent of all users of the
12 Thruway. This demonstrates our customers
13 have embraced modern toll collection. And in
14 case you're wondering, there are about
15 874 locations throughout the state that you
16 can purchase an E-ZPass.
17 With more and more customers familiar
18 with the cashless toll collection system, we
19 recognize that we need to continuously
20 improve. We've significantly increased our
21 outreach and education efforts, enhancing the
22 online system through account management, and
23 expanding the payment options to meet
24 customer needs. We expect all motorists
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1 using the Thruway to pay their tolls, and we
2 have enforcement tools to encourage payment,
3 because again, the Thruway receives no
4 federal or state funding. We believe these
5 incentives are balanced to ensure that
6 everyone pays their fair share, and we make
7 every effort to collect every single dollar
8 owed to the Thruway.
9 The vast majority of customers pay
10 their tolls. Approximately 90 percent of all
11 toll revenues are collected in a timely
12 manner, and the remaining 10 percent is an
13 ongoing process. Six percent of that
14 10 percent is paid within two months of being
15 billed, and the remaining 4 percent remains
16 subject to ongoing collection efforts.
17 The authority has the ability to
18 charge violation fees for nonpayment and
19 contracts with a collection agency after
20 multiple attempts to collect over a 120-day
21 period. Finally -- we hope that it doesn't
22 come to this -- we work with DMV partners for
23 vehicle registration suspension. This is a
24 serious penalty for toll scofflaws, and a
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1 last resort. These enforcement tools,
2 though, enable us to maintain fairness and to
3 offer the lowest prices for our customers.
4 To bolster our toll collection
5 efforts, I want to express our support for
6 Governor Hochul's Article VII toll violation,
7 which you'll find in the TED bill at Part F.
8 This bill will outlaw certain common toll
9 evasion practices that render license plates
10 difficult or impossible to read. This will
11 enhance enforcement by increasing fines,
12 seizing materials affixed for the purpose of
13 blocking numbered plates, and allow for the
14 denial and suspension of registrations.
15 Our current large-scale project that
16 began in July 2021 is the redevelopment of
17 the Thruway's 27 service areas. This project
18 is part of a $450 million investment with the
19 Empire State Thruway Partners, where 23 out
20 of 27 service areas will be completely
21 rebuilt and the other four extensively
22 renovated. The project is funded through a
23 public-private partnership with no toll
24 dollars -- let me say it again -- no toll
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1 dollars and no federal or state or local
2 taxpayer funding being used.
3 Operating and maintaining the Thruway
4 while enhancing and modernizing our system is
5 not free. Additional revenue is required for
6 the authority to fulfill its ongoing debt
7 services and capital needs through the
8 upcoming forecast period. This is why, in
9 December of 2022, the Thruway's board of
10 directors authorized the first step of a
11 public toll adjustment process.
12 This proposal represents the first
13 toll adjustment for New York E-ZPass
14 customers, outside of the Governor Mario
15 Cuomo Bridge, since 2010, which is 14 years
16 without an increase. The proposed rates will
17 remain below the current rates of many other
18 toll roads across the nation.
19 The assessment released by the
20 Comptroller's office on Friday fails to
21 appreciate these points. The document was
22 released outside of the Comptroller's own
23 audit procedures and without the Thruway's
24 response, as is the accepted practice. As a
350
1 result, the assessment, which is not an
2 audit, contains inaccurate and misleading
3 facts and does not address the revenue needed
4 to operate, maintain and construct a safe and
5 reliable transportation system.
6 And this assessment does nothing to
7 contribute to a serious public discussion.
8 Our accomplishments remain possible
9 because of the commitment from the 1700 men
10 and women of the Thruway Authority. Their
11 dedication and professionalism ensures that
12 the Thruway continues to be a safe and
13 reliable highway for all motorists. The most
14 recent example of their selflessness and
15 dedication is the back-to-back historic
16 storms in the Buffalo region. Our team
17 worked nonstop through the holidays, plowing
18 the roads, rescuing stranded motorists, and
19 assisting with medical emergencies, among
20 many other heroic acts. The Thruway
21 Authority, hands down, has the best team in
22 the nation.
23 In closing, please know that I remain
24 committed to keeping the Thruway the safest
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1 and most convenient means of travel in the
2 state. Whether one is commuting to work,
3 visiting family or friends, or enjoying the
4 recreational opportunities around our state,
5 or supporting the freight economy, the
6 Thruway will take you there.
7 That concludes my testimony, subject
8 to your questions.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Well, I guess
10 I'm going to be number one here, okay?
11 Let's start with Commissioner
12 Schroeder. The '22-'23 enacted budget
13 included $106 million for IT upgrades at the
14 DMV. Whole bunch of questions on that. Will
15 any additional funding be required for that
16 project? When will the upgrades be complete?
17 What improvements will our customers
18 experience as a result? I guess you've
19 already told us everybody's happy. Are there
20 any specific benchmarks for improving service
21 further? And will these IT upgrades result
22 in any savings?
23 So just an overall how did the IT
24 project go, where is it, and where are we
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1 going.
2 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Yeah.
3 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 And so first of all, the Executive
5 Budget, which I mentioned in my testimony, is
6 $477.6 million. And also to answer your
7 further questions, this gives us the ability
8 to continue our partnership with ITS in terms
9 of the very important transformation and tech
10 redesign that's going on with our agency.
11 And also, you mentioned the
12 reappropriation of last year's funding
13 included this year to continue to support
14 these most critical efforts.
15 In terms of IT overhaul and what the
16 status is and what we've been able to do,
17 thanks to your agreement last year, we have
18 initiated a new Live Chat on the new DMV
19 website. So this is something that's
20 beneficial for your constituents. We have
21 new payment options that we put in place this
22 year, in-office and online.
23 On the REAL ID, that has been really
24 very helpful. REAL ID is very complicated.
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1 The requirements come from the federal
2 government. So what we've established,
3 Mr. Chair, is uploading and downloading, so
4 your constituent can upload to us all of the
5 information we need; we download it; and then
6 they then come in and they're able to get
7 their REAL ID or their enhanced driver's
8 license. And it's one and done. And that's
9 important to us. That has happened this
10 year.
11 New training, self-development,
12 self-development on programs. We also too, I
13 heard in the previous testimony, we have a
14 reason to try to retain our employees. So
15 we've entered into an MOU with Empire State
16 College to help our employees go back and get
17 their degrees.
18 We also have partnering programs, and
19 we work with the dealers, as you know,
20 Mr. Chair, you work with the auto dealers
21 across New York State. And so -- and we are
22 now developing also, because of the
23 initiative last year through the Governor and
24 through you, the development of Mobile
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1 Driver's License. We will be able to have
2 that ready by the end of the year.
3 And the most important thing is we are
4 retiring legacy lines. These legacy lines
5 have to be retired. These legacy lines go
6 back to Rockefeller, 1961. No wonder there
7 were outages and glitches in all of our
8 offices. We recognized it, and we're doing
9 something about it, with your support.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Okay.
11 Another question, Commissioner. The
12 Executive proposal recommends increasing
13 staffing levels at the DMV by 200. Can you
14 tell me, what are these additional staff?
15 Can you provide any kind of a breakdown?
16 What kind of improvements is this going to
17 bring to the customers? And will the IT
18 upgrades that are underway have any impact on
19 the staffing levels required by the
20 department?
21 In other words, you're increasing
22 people, but you're also increasing the IT.
23 Is there any savings? What's going on?
24 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Yeah,
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1 thank you, Mr. Chair.
2 And so to the 200 FTEs, they -- what
3 they will be doing, essentially, they will
4 assist with the enhanced customer service and
5 federal grant management of a lot of the
6 different programs that I explained during my
7 testimony.
8 Also during our transformation
9 process, the customer service and the contact
10 centers, in terms of the chats and trying to
11 be -- use the technology the best we can.
12 Some of the safety initiatives.
13 Also, with the cannabis management, it
14 gives us responsibility, and we take our
15 responsibility very seriously to help manage
16 that. As you know, we train law enforcement
17 across New York State and the drug
18 enforcement -- and the DREs, the drug
19 recognition experts. So that will also help
20 by having these new employees.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Can I
22 interrupt you there just one second?
23 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Yes.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Do you have a
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1 problem with the way "impaired" is being
2 defined at this point in our Vehicle and
3 Traffic Law?
4 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER:
5 Mr. Chair, I don't -- I'm not certain if I
6 understand what you're asking me. But I will
7 say one thing.
8 Impaired is something that we take
9 very seriously at the Governor's Traffic
10 Safety Committee. So it could be drowsy
11 driving, it could be alcohol. It could be
12 cannabis, it could be drug-related. It's not
13 good, and it's unlawful.
14 And so we are preparing right now to
15 do everything we can to be helpful to law
16 enforcement across the state so that they
17 recognize, you know, what they see when
18 they're on a traffic stop.
19 Thank you for that.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: I appreciate
21 that answer. Thank you.
22 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: The last
23 point I wanted to make with where some of our
24 employees will be going to is that there --
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1 the adjudication of increased tickets
2 resulting from a proposal for New York
3 City -- and, Senator Krueger, you might be
4 interested in this. I know you are
5 interested -- in terms of New York City to
6 lower its speed limit.
7 If that does happen, you know, by this
8 honorable body and the Governor, we are
9 preparing to make sure that we have the
10 proper managers to be able to do all of these
11 initiatives that you would expect us to do.
12 Also, I am very aware -- I have a list
13 in here somewhere of all the laws that go --
14 are enacted this year, in 2023, that DMV that
15 has responsibility to, and we will do it on
16 time.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Another
18 question, Commissioner: Article VII budget
19 language to change the percentages due county
20 clerks. Are they going to stop knocking on
21 my door now? Is this what they want? Is it
22 not what they want?
23 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER:
24 Mr. Chair, so I take the -- I'm a former
358
1 comptroller, and so I take the $13 million
2 very seriously.
3 And I will say to this transportation
4 committee of the Assembly and the Senate, you
5 represent -- this body alone represents
6 28 counties in New York State. And so I am
7 very confident that that Article VII will
8 make your one-house bills as we get to March.
9 And the reason? One reason, respect.
10 Respect for the county clerks.
11 The county clerks, at your charge
12 100 years ago, began being involved in motor
13 vehicle business across New York State.
14 They've been operating under the same
15 retention model for the last 23 years, and
16 the whole world has changed. And so in our
17 strategic plan alone, Mr. Chair, I say
18 59 times in that strategic plan, we want to
19 reach customers to where they are.
20 That's completely opposite in terms of
21 how the county clerks get paid. They get
22 paid when a customer comes in their office,
23 and they get 12.7 percent.
24 So in short, I do believe that they
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1 won't be knocking on your door anymore. The
2 clerks are very interested in this
3 10.75 percent flat rate. It's fair, it's
4 equitable for all parties.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Okay, thank
6 you, Commissioner.
7 Mr. Hoare, I just want to say you are
8 the luckiest guy in the world to take office
9 and then have a blizzard and seven feet of
10 snow on the Thruway. I don't know why you
11 deserved something like that.
12 But I want to commend you on the way
13 the Thruway is being handled. I do know that
14 it takes a lot of money to run the Thruway,
15 and we will look very closely at these rate
16 increases that you are suggesting, or that
17 the Governor is suggesting, and we will go
18 forward from there.
19 And I thank you for being here today.
20 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Thank you,
21 Mr. Chairman. It is -- the Thruway board is
22 recommending these changes. Again, it speaks
23 to --
24 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: I misspoke,
360
1 you're right.
2 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: And it
3 speaks to that there's not been a raise in
4 14 years, there's no state or federal funding
5 for those -- for the operations of the
6 Thruway Authority.
7 And if you look at the numbers -- and
8 my colleague can speak to give you some
9 specific examples -- it is -- the percentage
10 of increase that we propose is far below any
11 of our neighboring states in the region. We
12 go from 4.5 percent a mile for vehicle
13 traffic, passenger traffic -- 4.5 cents,
14 cents, to 4.9 cents over the next four years.
15 So we think it's a de minimis increase
16 in order to address the needs over the next
17 several years, over the next four years, to
18 address our operation, maintenance, and
19 capital needs.
20 Matt, if you want to give an example
21 or two --
22 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Perfect
23 timing. We're down. Thank you.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
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1 much.
2 Hi, gentlemen. Our first questioner
3 will be Senator Kennedy, our chair of
4 Transportation.
5 SENATOR KENNEDY: Thank you,
6 Chairwoman.
7 Good evening, gentlemen. Commissioner
8 Schroeder, thank you so much for your
9 testimony. Thank you for your leadership.
10 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Thank
11 you, Senator.
12 SENATOR KENNEDY: Executive Director
13 Hoare, thank you as well for your testimony
14 and leadership.
15 I'm going to start right where you
16 left off. The Thruway board authorized the
17 start of the administrative process to
18 increase tolls on the Thruway, and that would
19 be for all users. Last week Comptroller
20 DiNapoli came out and said that an increase
21 in tolls should only be an absolute last
22 resort. I agree with him.
23 He also suggested looking at other
24 forms of revenue to supplant the gap in funds
362
1 that is being suggested.
2 That being said, how did the Thruway
3 come to the conclusion that this is a time to
4 increase tolls?
5 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: The primary
6 conclusion was that it's been 14 years since
7 there has been an increase.
8 So if you look at prices and costs
9 back in 2010, just in the last two years our
10 equipment and vehicle costs have gone up by
11 40 percent. In 2010, structural steel was
12 $1.31 a pound; it is now $4.08 a pound.
13 That's a 212 percent increase. Roadbed
14 gravel, 123 percent. Asphalt, 87 percent.
15 Our -- obviously our personnel costs, people
16 have gotten raises over the last 14 years.
17 So that primarily is the reason, that
18 it's been 14 years. There's never a good
19 time to raise prices. I know that. Every
20 one of us, you can go to the store, you'll
21 see nobody likes to pay more. But if you
22 look at prices and you look at expenses and
23 what the needs were in 2010 versus now, it's
24 gone up. And if we want to maintain a safe
363
1 and reliable system so people can get to
2 work, people can visit family and friends,
3 they can come visit the sights in your
4 district, commerce can flow from one end of
5 the district to the other, we're going to
6 need to continue to invest in that.
7 I defer to our chief financial
8 officer, who was involved in some of the
9 more -- the details of putting that proposal
10 together.
11 THRUWAY CFO HOWARD: Yeah, I'll just
12 continue to follow up on one of the points
13 that the director was making earlier, that
14 the result of the proposed toll change would
15 be to increase our base rate per mile from
16 4.5 cents per mile today to 4.9 cents per
17 mile by 2027.
18 When you compare that to what other
19 states currently charge today, the
20 Pennsylvania Turnpike is currently today
21 charging 14.5 cents per mile. The New Jersey
22 Garden State Parkway is 6.5 cents per mile.
23 The Indiana Toll Road, today, is 8.6 cents
24 per mile.
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1 So to use an example, the trip from
2 Buffalo to Albany today currently is a
3 $12 toll to go from Buffalo to Albany. As a
4 result of the proposed toll change, by 2027
5 that toll would increase by about 91 cents,
6 to $13. If you were to drive that same trip
7 on the Pennsylvania Turnpike today, instead
8 of paying $13, it would be 39. And that's an
9 important point that oftentimes gets lost in
10 terms of the need and relative, you know,
11 context of the rate change being proposed.
12 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: And we also
13 dealt with the impact of COVID. Just in
14 2020, the Thruway lost $125 million in toll
15 revenue from that year because of the impacts
16 of COVID. That will grow to $240 million
17 over a five-year period. That is money we
18 will never see again and, again, will not
19 be -- cannot be used for maintenance and
20 operations and rebuilding a structure that's
21 been around since the early '50s.
22 My colleague talked about
23 Governor Rockefeller. We're talking about
24 Governor Dewey here, right? And the roadbed,
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1 the roadbed that was built in the '50s is
2 still the same roadbed. And 870-odd bridges
3 that span the Thruway have not been -- many
4 of them have not been refurbished or
5 renovated in years. So that money is needed
6 now.
7 SENATOR KENNEDY: What other sources
8 of revenue are available other than a toll
9 increase? You know, we talk about it being a
10 last resort. What else can be done?
11 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Well, let
12 me just say, Senator, we certainly agree with
13 the Comptroller that a toll increase should
14 be the last resort. That's why we've been
15 looking at this for -- intensely for the last
16 several years. But really this review
17 started years ago as we started seeing these
18 costs escalate since 2010.
19 So 90 percent of -- 95 percent of our
20 revenue comes from tolls. The remaining
21 5 percent will come from leases. We lease
22 cell towers, we lease fiber. We make some
23 money, not much, but off the service areas.
24 But that's where the remaining amount comes
366
1 from.
2 So 95 percent comes from tolls.
3 SENATOR KENNEDY: And you cannot tap
4 into federal infrastructure funds. Can you
5 explain that?
6 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: The federal
7 infrastructure dollars that came into
8 New York were part of the capital program
9 that Commissioner Dominguez was referring to
10 before. That money is spent, as she said.
11 It's been programmed. And we were not
12 included in that.
13 There are some small discretionary
14 fund programs that federal DOT has. We are
15 attempting to access those. We have applied
16 for two. One is approximately $20 million,
17 the other is approximately $22 million. So
18 there's not much there even if we get those
19 funds, and they're the famous one-shots. We
20 won't see them again.
21 SENATOR KENNEDY: And how much of a
22 funding gap would occur if these toll
23 increases do not happen?
24 THRUWAY CFO HOWARD: Our current
367
1 projections are that beginning in 2024, we'd
2 have a gap of about, you know, $4 million.
3 That gap would grow over time so that by 2031
4 it would be roughly in the $250 million range
5 if we don't act before then.
6 SENATOR KENNEDY: And then as far as
7 getting the public's input on this -- public
8 hearings are necessitated here. How many
9 hearings do you expect to have? Where are
10 these hearings going to be held?
11 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: The
12 hearings are held pursuant to the State
13 Administrative Procedure Act for public
14 regulations, and also pursuant to the
15 Public Authorities Law. So there's a minimum
16 of three hearings that are required to be
17 held. We are working on that and looking at
18 where we can hold those hearings, probably
19 mid-to-late spring. I know we had a
20 conversation with Senator Hinchey when we
21 visited with you, about moving around and
22 making them accessible. We are committed to
23 making them accessible and having every voice
24 heard.
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1 Public hearings are not the only --
2 are not the only way to make your voice
3 heard. We've opened a website for that,
4 folks have been commenting since -- since
5 December when the proposed increases were
6 authorized by the board of directors.
7 SENATOR KENNEDY: Okay, I do have more
8 questions on that, but I'm going to just
9 switch gears here -- I only have a few
10 minutes left. I want to talk about the
11 Thruway Service Center construction. Can you
12 talk about that, the three new ones open but
13 others that are opening in the future? You
14 know, what is the date that every single
15 service area will be open for use by the
16 general public? And are we ready to take
17 action if in fact there's delays on these
18 projects?
19 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: There is a
20 delay. They project at this point to be
21 finished in late May, early June of 2025.
22 They're approximately eight to 10 months
23 behind, depending on location. Again,
24 because of COVID and supply side issues and
369
1 even the war in Ukraine has been cited as
2 reasons for impacting scheduling.
3 So I can assure you -- my predecessor
4 was very involved in staying on top of the
5 project and pushing them along, and now we're
6 in the process of trying to accelerate that
7 and make up some of that time. We have
8 multiple weekly calls with both the operator
9 that we have contracted with and with the
10 design-builder that the operator contracted
11 with.
12 SENATOR KENNEDY: And are we expecting
13 with the new service areas that the Thruway
14 Authority gets a cut of the sales at these
15 areas, that that revenue will increase? Is
16 that what we're anticipating?
17 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Pursuant to
18 the contract, there's a small -- but it is a
19 very small, admittedly, percentage that comes
20 to the Thruway. And that's because the
21 $450 million cost of those 27 areas is coming
22 completely from the operator. There's not a
23 dime -- again, it's said -- that comes from
24 the Thruway and its toll revenue or a dime
370
1 from the state.
2 SENATOR KENNEDY: Thank you.
3 And just again, to be mindful of time
4 here, I've got a little less than a minute
5 left.
6 Aside from being chair of
7 transportation, I'm also chair of the
8 Subcommittee on Native American Affairs, and
9 we know that there's been issues with the
10 various Native nations whose land the Thruway
11 runs through.
12 What is the Thruway Authority doing to
13 restore relations with the various nations?
14 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Well,
15 you're referring to -- there's a federal
16 court case with the Seneca Nation relating to
17 the three-mile stretch of Thruway that goes
18 through the Cattaraugus Reservation. We've
19 been in litigation with them for years now.
20 This is actually Round 2. And the earlier
21 case, commenced in the '90s, was dismissed in
22 the early 2000s.
23 We stay in touch with them. They --
24 the most recent development is that the
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1 Second Circuit Court of Appeals denied the
2 Thruway's motion to dismiss the matter. So
3 now we'll be -- we're currently exploring our
4 options on what the next step is. The
5 Thruway Authority is represented by the
6 Attorney General's office.
7 SENATOR KENNEDY: All right, thank you
8 all again. And I'll reserve the rest for
9 Round 2.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
11 Assembly.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Assemblywoman
13 Gallagher.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER: Hello.
15 Thank you so much. And I have to say I'm
16 really excited, maybe even want to come work
17 at the DMV now. It sounds amazing.
18 (Laughter.)
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER: So I was
20 very excited to see that Hochul has -- or,
21 excuse me, the Governor has included higher
22 fees and fines associated with obstructing or
23 defacing a license plate. But I know in my
24 district we still see many, many license
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1 plates that are destructed or we have ones
2 that are on pieces of paper that look like
3 somebody printed it off their computer. It
4 just seems like there's a really big problem
5 with the license plates being the metric that
6 we are using for the bus lane -- the new bus
7 lane provisions where we're going to be
8 checking to see if people are blocking the
9 bus lane, the enforcement of paying tolls.
10 So I'm wondering, is there any
11 innovations that you're seeing coming up to
12 prevent these kind of obstructions? And is
13 that something that we can work on together?
14 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Yes.
15 Thank you very much for your question.
16 And the answer is several -- in 2020
17 we actually changed the license plate. And
18 also the DOCCS, who are the ones who do the
19 RFP, they came up with a vendor. The vendor
20 equipment and the plate has been able to get
21 through all of the different, you know,
22 Thruway Authority and not on the Thruway,
23 through the different testing. And so things
24 are going really well.
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1 There are a number of plates, though,
2 across New York State that are peeling. And
3 those plates that are peeling, we have had a
4 program for several years that if your
5 constituent lets us know, we will replace
6 their plate for no fee whatsoever. So if
7 that's something that's happening, you please
8 let me know.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER: Can we let
10 you know if someone's else's plate is
11 peeling? Because I think often people are
12 taking advantage of their own plate peeling.
13 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Yes. But
14 we have a system in place, and so we would
15 look at that.
16 And I do get people from across
17 New York State to send me photos of the
18 plates. And what I do is I go to our
19 commissioner within communications, and she's
20 able to figure out what to do about it.
21 Because it's not safe. It's not safe when
22 these plates are not readable, especially for
23 law enforcement.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER: Well, I
374
1 think you just gave a lot of people in my
2 district a new hobby of taking photos of
3 these plates and sending them to you.
4 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Send them
5 to Schroeder.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER: And then --
7 well, I only have 11 seconds left, so I'll
8 let it go. But thank you.
9 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: You're
10 welcome. Thank you.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
12 Senator Comrie.
13 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you, Madam
14 Chair.
15 Good afternoon, Commissioners. I want
16 to just --
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: (Inaudible; mic
18 off.)
19 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you. Good
20 evening, gentlemen. I just want to start --
21 did neither one of you submit testimony for
22 us? It's down there? Oh, okay. All right.
23 All right. Thank you. I didn't -- anyhow,
24 good evening, everyone.
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1 I wanted to find out first,
2 Director Hoare, where are we with the ability
3 to do last mile/first mile connection to DOT
4 to ensure that they can run fiber throughout
5 the rest of Western New York? And can you
6 explain to us how the Thruway Authority is
7 helping to make that happen?
8 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Well,
9 Senator, we have a robust fiber program
10 ourselves where we're using the Thruway right
11 of way from one end of the state to the
12 other, to put our own fiber, to lease ducts,
13 and to have -- lease with other companies to
14 put their fiber in our system.
15 SENATOR COMRIE: And you had said
16 before or it was said before, prior to -- by
17 the previous commissioner that your fiber
18 system was in robust shape and was able to --
19 already at 5G speeds and above, and connect.
20 Are you gaining revenue from your
21 ability to work with profitable companies
22 that want to connect to your system? And how
23 much of that revenue do you expect to
24 increase over time?
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1 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Yes, we're
2 working with such companies as Verizon, and
3 there are others.
4 In terms of the amount --
5 THRUWAY CFO HOWARD: Yeah, so within
6 the last two years we've changed how we
7 operate and manage the fiber system. As a
8 result, we've -- over the last two years have
9 had significant contract activity with firms
10 coming in to access that fiber.
11 As a result, we saw about $8 million
12 in revenue in 2022, we estimate. We think
13 that that number is going to go to about 11
14 next year.
15 However, I would say that we also
16 anticipate that given that activity, that a
17 large portion of the fiber duct itself, the
18 capacity, will be accessed by those outside
19 entities. So that we kind of anticipate the
20 revenue figure to kind of begin to abate a
21 little bit. Because right now we're in the
22 process of entering into those lease
23 agreements, and it won't, you know, continue
24 at that growth rate, you know, indefinitely
377
1 into the future.
2 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: To clarify,
3 many of those lease agreements call for
4 up-front larger payments in order to access
5 the right to be in there. And then after
6 those one-time payments, then it's a yearly
7 rental.
8 And not only are we on the Thruway,
9 we're on the Grand Island Bridge and the
10 Governor Mario Cuomo Bridge as well.
11 So we're looking for every effort to
12 increase those revenues and increase that
13 opportunity that fiber brings.
14 SENATOR COMRIE: So do you think
15 that -- well, you're saying that because of
16 the up-front payments that were initially
17 done, the continual payments are going to be
18 lower. But do you think that you'll be able
19 to get other providers to continue to
20 purchase into the system to be able to get
21 access?
22 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Yes. We
23 have a robust program that looks to market
24 our right of way for fiber.
378
1 SENATOR COMRIE: And on the other end,
2 my initial question, you know, a lot of my
3 colleagues upstate are complaining about the
4 inability to access high-speed internet. And
5 I keep mentioning it every year, how the
6 Thruway Authority could hopefully tie into
7 State DOT to give them that access to run
8 fiber into their new roadways.
9 So I would hope that we could get some
10 feedbacks on improvements on how that's
11 happening.
12 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Yes,
13 Senator.
14 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you.
15 Now, my pet question. The Governor
16 vetoed my Tollpayer Protection Act again.
17 You know, we have a lot of constituents
18 that -- all over the state that, due to the
19 fact that their credit card or bank account
20 changed, find out themselves at the end of
21 the month with a major bill from different
22 authorities that they don't know which.
23 I have constituents that travel
24 interstate to go to work every day because
379
1 they have to. Some people go from
2 Suffolk County to New Jersey or Connecticut
3 to go to work, and at the end of the month
4 they find themselves with a major bill.
5 Can you give us an update on how those
6 folks that are legitimately having problems
7 can get their bills either in some amnesty
8 program or get their bills reduced because
9 they're legitimately showing you that they
10 didn't have -- they didn't hide their plates
11 or they didn't do anything illegal?
12 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Yes,
13 Senator. Well, if they're driving from
14 Long Island into Manhattan and then on to
15 New Jersey, it's not the Thruway Authority,
16 it would be the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel
17 Authority.
18 But what we do, what we do when people
19 have issues or they believe a mistake has
20 been made -- which is a small number out of
21 the 740 million transactions that have been
22 conducted since November of 2020, when we
23 went to cashless tolling. First of all,
24 there's a -- we have a contractor that runs a
380
1 customer service center. And it is the same
2 center for whether it's TBTA or the
3 Port Authority.
4 But there's a customer service center
5 that folks can call, and that number is on
6 their bill and is on our website so they can
7 access that and call. Most of the time their
8 issue is taken care of right there on the
9 phone.
10 For those that have not had it taken
11 care of, they then -- we have a tollpayer
12 advocate since 2019 that works within the
13 Thruway Authority, and there's been some
14 5,000 cases resolved since 2019 for customers
15 who feel that their bill is not -- is not
16 accurate.
17 In addition to that tollpayer
18 advocate, other staff members get calls. We
19 get many calls from the Legislature, from
20 your colleagues here, with a constituent that
21 has come in with an issue. And we make every
22 effort to resolve -- to resolve that issue on
23 their toll.
24 And again, I would just say that the
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1 number, out of that 740 million transactions,
2 is low. And we're proud of that. We work
3 with folks to pay a bill and to pay a right
4 bill. And we want them -- we want them to
5 pay their bill, and we want them to -- but
6 only pay their fair share.
7 SENATOR COMRIE: And if a person calls
8 your agency and they actually have -- the
9 penalty is with another agency, do you
10 automatically send them over to the proper
11 agency, to that advocate or the
12 Port Authority or the MTA to correct --
13 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: We do. We
14 refer them. We identify that and say, That's
15 not us, here's who you need to call. We
16 share the same contractor, but there are
17 three -- they maintain three separate desks,
18 so to speak, scripts. But we're actually
19 working on trying to consolidate that so
20 there would be access. But right now, we
21 don't have that access.
22 But we do refer them on, we don't just
23 say it's not us, we explain to them that your
24 toll was incurred with another tolling
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1 agency.
2 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you.
3 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: The Bridge
4 Authority also. That comes up with the
5 Bridge Authority at times as well.
6 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you.
7 Appreciate that.
8 And so you're saying that those -- and
9 you add those numbers into your percentage of
10 calls also, to -- you said your -- do you add
11 those numbers into your overall percentage of
12 complaints that come in as well, the ones
13 that are referred to other agencies?
14 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: They --
15 they are not -- I don't know how they're
16 kept. I know -- but I -- is it a number we
17 keep? The 5,000 I mentioned is what we track
18 coming into the tollpayer advocate.
19 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you.
20 And just quickly on the service
21 centers, can you assure the public that the
22 service centers that are going to be built
23 will have the same amount of amenities,
24 restroom facilities, as the existing ones
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1 that were removed? And can you detail that
2 for members? Because the -- as we talked
3 previously, there were some concerns that the
4 size of the new centers were not -- did not
5 seem large enough to have the same amount of
6 restroom facilities that were in the previous
7 facilities.
8 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Well, no,
9 they won't have the same amenities. They're
10 going to have better amenities. They're
11 going to be much more modern and serve the
12 public much better in terms of the food
13 they're offered, the spaces there.
14 Many of them will have -- four of them
15 will have venues for truckers to shower and
16 sleep and do laundry and rest. So they're
17 going to be better.
18 The -- there are three sizes to the
19 service areas. The three that are opened up
20 right now -- and I think Senator Kennedy was
21 asking about this before. Three are
22 currently open west of Albany. There will be
23 another seven open by the end of May, by
24 Memorial Day weekend. And then the remaining
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1 17 will open on a rolling basis. As one goes
2 up, we take down another one. And we make
3 sure that there's -- no two consecutive
4 service areas are down, so that we can
5 convenience the public.
6 But they will be -- of those service
7 areas, there's three different sizes. The
8 size of a particular service area is
9 determined by the amount of traffic and the
10 amount of folks that would be stopping at
11 that on the prior -- on the prior service
12 areas.
13 SENATOR COMRIE: And they'll be
14 handicapped accessible throughout the --
15 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Yes. Yes.
16 SENATOR COMRIE: And then just my
17 final question, if you can get back to us
18 with the numbers on how you're doing with
19 MWBE and procurement throughout your agency,
20 so we can know what your percentage of MWBE
21 and procurement is, with New York-based
22 businesses and with MWBE.
23 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: I can tell
24 you that for MWBE, we were at 33.4 percent
385
1 for 2022, so over 3 percent above the state
2 goal. And for servicemembers, it was
3 4 percent on a goal of 6.
4 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you.
5 Thank you. I have to do a Round 2
6 because I didn't get to Commissioner
7 Schroeder.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
9 Assembly?
10 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI:
11 Assemblymember Jensen.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN JENSEN: Thank you very
13 much Mr. Chairman.
14 This is for the Thruway Authority
15 director. We've heard a couple of times
16 about the thought process on the construction
17 of the new rest stops. And my question
18 pertains to the oversight over the newly
19 opened ones. Certainly being a Thruway user
20 and stopping at the rest stops and being very
21 excited to see the new ones, I've been
22 disappointed since they've opened that the
23 quality of service, while the food is
24 tremendous and the cafe is nice, the upkeep
386
1 is failing already.
2 At the rest stop at Indian Castle, you
3 see in a men's room with six places to use
4 the facilities, you have one that has been
5 down for weeks. You have two all-gender
6 family restrooms, one of which was down for
7 two months. At the early morning hours when
8 I travel, it looks like the facilities have
9 not been cleaned.
10 So my question to you is, who has the
11 oversight over the operational aspects of
12 these locations? Because certainly when
13 users have a problem, they don't direct it to
14 the public/private partnership, they judge
15 the Thruway Authority itself.
16 So who has the oversight over the
17 maintenance?
18 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Well, we
19 have oversight. The responsibility for
20 maintaining and upkeeping those service areas
21 is with the operator who we've contracted
22 with. We have quality control, quality
23 assurance folks on our end looking at that.
24 I'm not aware of those complaints.
387
1 We'll certainly look into that and act on
2 that. When we do get a complaint or question
3 about a particular service area, we respond
4 to that and get on the phone to the operator
5 and say, Hey, you've got to take care of
6 this, you have an obligation, a contractual
7 obligation to us to take care of that. And
8 if you don't, then there's going to be
9 penalties.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN JENSEN: So that's good to
11 hear. I mean, I thought about calling
12 myself, but it shouldn't take a member of the
13 New York State Legislature to ensure proper
14 maintenance, especially when you have
15 bathrooms that are down for weeks at a time.
16 Going back to talking about the
17 different sizes of the rest stops, whose
18 decision was it to build in the order that
19 they did? I know you said it's based on
20 traffic volume. But I would think if you're
21 doing wholesale reconstruction, you would
22 have built the larger ones first, to address
23 any capacity concerns where you have
24 overloading of the existing stops, especially
388
1 as more vendors are pulling out.
2 So I know there's stretches,
3 especially going from Long Island up towards
4 Albany, where you have no food vendors at
5 existing pre-renovated rest stops.
6 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: There are
7 some down. And again, there are no two
8 consecutive ones down.
9 In terms of the determination, again,
10 of the particular size, it was determined by
11 the studies and the data as to how big the
12 existing service area had been.
13 In terms of the order and which ones
14 go first, I don't know. I can ask that
15 question. I wasn't at the Thruway at that
16 point, but happy to find that out and get
17 back to you.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN JENSEN: Thank you,
19 Director.
20 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Next, Senator Mattera.
23 SENATOR MATTERA: Thank you. Thank
24 you, Chair. I appreciate the time.
389
1 And to the director, I appreciate all
2 you guys are doing.
3 But, you know, this is something
4 important; everybody knows what's happened
5 with inflation and everything. Comptroller
6 DiNapoli recently issued a statement
7 expressing his disapproval of the proposed
8 toll hikes, stating that the Thruway should
9 be focusing first on improving its
10 operations.
11 Given how expensive life is for
12 New Yorkers, do you believe now is the right
13 time to put additional burdens on all
14 New Yorkers.
15 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Yes,
16 because it's been 14 years. We're at a point
17 where we cannot continue to push the can down
18 the road.
19 SENATOR MATTERA: So, you know, you
20 and I, we had a discussion -- and I thank you
21 so much -- when you came to my office and
22 everything like that. I know there was a
23 toll, right, the toll for the bridge. Do you
24 really -- again, do we really need to do both
390
1 the bridge and the Thruway? I know you're
2 going to say yes to me again, but you know
3 what? I mean, you know, can we help
4 New Yorkers?
5 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Again,
6 you're referring to the tolls in --
7 SENATOR MATTERA: Yeah, well, the
8 bridge -- the bridge toll is going to be
9 going up also. Everybody needs to know it's
10 not just the Thruway, it's going to be the
11 bridges also.
12 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Yes. And
13 it's -- the Governor Cuomo Bridge went up
14 50 cents in 2021, 50 cents in 2022, and the
15 proposal is 50 cents over the next -- over
16 the next four years.
17 Again, let me just finish that.
18 Right? Again, as we said, if you look at the
19 percentage, if you look at the percentage of
20 those increases, compare the Governor Mario
21 Cuomo Bridge to the cost of the George
22 Washington Bridge, the Verrazano, and other
23 bridges in the region. The percentage is --
24 the raw number is still way down.
391
1 SENATOR MATTERA: You know, so
2 14 years ago, you said, for the Thruway --
3 that was the last time that it was increased,
4 am I correct?
5 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Yes, for
6 the main line E-ZPass.
7 SENATOR MATTERA: All right. But we
8 just did the bridges, not even within a year.
9 THRUWAY CFO HOWARD: Yeah, so, you
10 know, as you mentioned, there was an increase
11 in 2021 and 2022. The proposal would provide
12 for additional 50 cent increases beginning in
13 2024 through 2027. That would bring the
14 bridge rate in 2027 up to $7.75.
15 If you compare that to what the George
16 Washington Bridge toll is today, that number
17 is over $14 today. So we're -- we would be
18 raising, over a four-year period, the toll to
19 a level that is about half of what, you know,
20 comparable crossings currently are today.
21 That's really the underlying logic behind
22 that.
23 SENATOR MATTERA: Okay, thank you.
24 And for Commissioner Schroeder -- and
392
1 I thank you. And I know someone had
2 mentioned this and you already discussed it
3 about, you know, since the legalization of
4 cannabis, it is not uncommon to see and to
5 smell cannabis being used as people are
6 driving around.
7 What is the DMV doing to address this
8 drugged driving? And I know we had this
9 discussion, but this is something very dear
10 to my heart that, you know, right now our law
11 enforcement cannot detect anything. How --
12 you said there's going to be a time frame.
13 When do you think this time frame is that
14 we're going to be working with the DMV and
15 law enforcement to make sure that this is not
16 happening?
17 Because I drive down 95, I'm driving
18 up the Thruway, and that's all I smell. We
19 got now edibles, obviously, with this
20 cannabis. It's just out of control.
21 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Thank
22 you, Senator.
23 And so my response would be that at
24 the Governor's Traffic Safety Committee we
393
1 take this very, very seriously. And so there
2 are currently 400 -- 550 drug recognition
3 experts. These -- these are law enforcement
4 experts that we've helped train over the last
5 several years. Our goal is to go up to 550.
6 In addition to that, we have eight
7 more classes scheduled for this year. I've
8 been to the classes. It's intense. It's
9 almost like -- when they get done with the
10 training, it's almost like sitting for the
11 bar exam or the three-part CPA exam. It's
12 intense. And the knowledge that they have
13 and the knowledge that they're able to share
14 with other law enforcement officers will
15 prepare them for exactly what you're
16 concerned about.
17 And finally, there's another program
18 that we spend a lot of time on, and it's
19 called the ARIDE program. And it's the
20 Advanced Roadside Impaired Driving
21 Enforcement. We have trained now 3,000
22 officers, and it's an intense 16-hour
23 training program, so that they are equipped
24 to do exactly what they're supposed to do to
394
1 have safety on the road.
2 SENATOR MATTERA: And time frame?
3 Just quick, time frame for us? What do you
4 think? Do you think -- when can this really
5 come and be effective?
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry, no
7 more time to add another question.
8 (Overtalk.)
9 SENATOR MATTERA: Thank you. Thank
10 you, Senator Krueger.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
12 Assembly.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI:
14 Assemblymember Smullen, please.
15 (No response.)
16 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Okay.
17 Assemblymember Jacobson.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: Thank you,
19 Mr. Chairman.
20 My questions are for the Thruway
21 concerning the renovation of the rest areas.
22 There's a number of them that I pass south of
23 here, and they have signs on the road going
24 there, and it says "No Restrooms Available."
395
1 Now, I understand if you're building
2 over and there's no restrooms, and that's
3 fine. I understand that. But couldn't we at
4 least have some of these portable toilets,
5 the ones you see on construction sites or
6 that people rent when they have a large
7 gathering outdoors?
8 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: We
9 considered that and determined that it was a
10 risk because it's an open construction site.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: Because what?
12 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: It's a
13 construction site, and that would be risky
14 for -- to have folks drive in and use
15 porta-potties, porta-johns.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: I don't
17 understand. You're saying we couldn't do
18 that? Or it would delay construction time?
19 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE:
20 Assemblyman, you're talking about where the
21 site is currently under construction, is that
22 correct?
23 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: I'm saying I
24 don't -- why don't we have the portable
396
1 toilets at these sites that say "No Restroom
2 Available"?
3 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Because
4 those sites would be under construction, and
5 the determination was made that it would be a
6 risk to have folks driving in onto a
7 construction site to use those facilities.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: Couldn't we put
9 them off to the side? I think -- I think the
10 engineers can figure that out, that if you
11 put it to the side of the parking lot, away
12 from the construction, I think it could be
13 done.
14 My second question is last year it was
15 brought up at the hearings concerning having
16 electric vehicle charging stations at all the
17 areas along the Thruway, and I'm wondering
18 how that is coming along.
19 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: That is
20 coming along. The commitment in the contract
21 is for -- again, with the operator, is for
22 120 charging stations at the 27 sites. The
23 contract also calls for that to be renewed
24 and to be constantly reviewing --
397
1 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: So you're
2 talking only four per site?
3 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: There would
4 be approximately four per site. Some will
5 have six.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN JACOBSON: Okay. To me,
7 that's totally inadequate. I think you need
8 at least eight. Because people are going to
9 come there, we don't want them to get into
10 fights over who was there first. And you
11 should have at least eight because this is
12 going to be the way of the future.
13 So that's a nice start, but while
14 you're doing it, let's have eight, maybe 12.
15 It wouldn't take that much, because once the
16 initial cost goes in to doing it, you can
17 have it.
18 So I would appreciate that, and that's
19 it. Thank you.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
21 Next is Senator Hinchey.
22 SENATOR HINCHEY: Thank you,
23 Madam Chair.
24 And hello. Thank you all for being
398
1 here.
2 My question in my quick three minutes
3 is going to Executive Director Hoare. Great
4 to see you. Not surprising. As you know,
5 much of my district encompasses the Thruway,
6 and so thank you for your work.
7 The last time we spoke we talked about
8 emergency services. And so, as you know,
9 many of our fire departments and our EMS
10 services are all volunteer. In the four
11 counties that I represent, only one of them
12 is paid. And right now many of those first
13 responders are servicing the Thruway. Should
14 there be an accident or something happens,
15 it's our volunteer firefighters and our
16 volunteer first responders who are the ones
17 showing up at the scene first.
18 When we spoke, you had mentioned that
19 you have an agreement with the State Police
20 to help patrol those streets, and you were
21 interested in possibly figuring out something
22 with our first responders when we brought
23 this to your attention. Because all of them
24 are really struggling. Right? Many of them
399
1 are closing. They're shutting their doors
2 because they just don't have the ability to
3 operate.
4 Has there been any additional thought
5 for that? We met before the budget was
6 released. I didn't see anything in the
7 budget for that type of funding. But what
8 are your thoughts on that?
9 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: So as a
10 result of our meeting, we went back and there
11 is a program that's been in existence for a
12 while to pay a set amount to those
13 responding. We acknowledge and recognize
14 that --
15 SENATOR HINCHEY: It's really low.
16 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: It's low.
17 SENATOR HINCHEY: It's too low.
18 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: And we
19 appreciate that. And we are -- I will commit
20 to you to take a look at that.
21 We're not in -- again, we're not in
22 the state budget, so you wouldn't see it
23 there. But we will take a look at that
24 because, again, we value -- we value the work
400
1 and we need them to do that work and we
2 understand that some of them are in
3 precarious financial shape.
4 SENATOR HINCHEY: And it would save
5 you money in the long run by continuing that,
6 as opposed to having to hire your own
7 department, right, to service those accidents
8 and crashes.
9 And so I think it's really important
10 we work together on that. Let me know how we
11 can help. Because the sooner, the better, on
12 that front.
13 As it pertains to Senator Kennedy's
14 questions, I understand why -- how you were
15 not allocated in the federal infrastructure
16 funding. But could you shed a little light,
17 for those of us who may not know, why you're
18 not represented in the state budget or
19 looking at -- you're really only based on
20 rate increases? Can you talk about that
21 structure? Or toll increases, I should say.
22 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Well, I
23 mean, the decision was made from -- dating
24 back to the '50s when --
401
1 SENATOR HINCHEY: I guess I'm saying,
2 is it changeable? Right? Is there a way
3 that we would be able to change that payment
4 structure for you, or the way that you
5 operate in funds?
6 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: I would say
7 that would be above my pay grade.
8 SENATOR HINCHEY: Okay. I have
9 20 seconds left, so I'll wait and we'll
10 follow up. Thank you.
11 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: You're
12 welcome.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 Assembly.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
16 Norris for five minutes, since he's the
17 ranker on Transportation.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN NORRIS: Thank you very
19 much, Madam Chair.
20 My question is first to Commissioner
21 Schroeder. Thank you very much for what you
22 do. I know we contact your office very often
23 and you're very helpful to our constituents.
24 One of the areas -- and I'm grateful
402
1 to see the shift to help our county clerks.
2 That's very important in our local
3 municipalities, contained within the state
4 budget.
5 But what are we doing for Donate for
6 Life, and increasing that? As you know,
7 organ donations in New York State is one of
8 the lowest across the entire country. What
9 are we doing at the DMV to improve that?
10 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Yeah,
11 thank you for that. And we -- we are going
12 to beat Colorado. So Colorado is the best
13 state in the nation for Donate Life. Right
14 now New York ranks real low.
15 And so this year is a significant
16 year. I and my staff, we work not only with
17 the 51 county clerks, but we are seeing
18 incredible progress in the 27 district
19 offices that we run, mostly in metropolitan
20 New York. I was just in Manhattan a month
21 ago, and also last April during Donate Life
22 Month, to award the Manhattan district office
23 License Express because of their good work
24 for Donate Life.
403
1 And so in all of the 108 offices of
2 county clerks and all 27 district offices
3 that we run, starting in March we will have
4 what is -- it's a -- when you go up to the
5 counter, you see this little computer? It's
6 called a customer-facing device. And right
7 now it's essentially used to voter motor --
8 Motor Voter, right? Now, in March -- we're
9 installing it now -- that that -- the other
10 half of all the people who come into a DMV,
11 do registration work, they will be able to
12 automatically enroll into Donate Life.
13 And so over the next year our goal is
14 to enroll 2.5 million more New Yorkers, and
15 then that takes us out of the low level and
16 puts us into the high threshold.
17 We are totally committed to it. I
18 have my button on. All of our -- all of
19 our -- and during the month of March and
20 April, we have -- just this last March we had
21 a little person, five years old, she's had a
22 heart transplant -- twice. They call her
23 The Warrior. And she came to the DO office,
24 the district office, in Albany and she danced
404
1 and she ran around. And it shows to all of
2 our employees how important it is for us to
3 know.
4 Training, also. We are training,
5 along with the Donate Life organization, we
6 are training, right now we're training all of
7 our DMV offices across New York State. We
8 are committed.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN NORRIS: Thank you,
10 Commissioner. Thank you for the work.
11 I'd like to ask a couple of questions
12 of Director Hoare. Thank you very much.
13 My first question is procedurally, how
14 do you make the determination to close the
15 Thruway through -- with significant events
16 such as the recent blizzard in Buffalo?
17 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Our first
18 concern, consideration, is always safety. So
19 we talk to our partners in state government,
20 we talk to our partners in localities, we
21 talk to the National Weather Service, and we
22 try and make a determination what is the
23 safest approach to take for the traveling
24 public.
405
1 ASSEMBLYMAN NORRIS: Thank you.
2 Is there a review being done after the
3 two blizzards to see if the procedures are
4 actually in place for communication purposes
5 with the general public?
6 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: After every
7 storm we reevaluate, we do after action
8 reports. And you heard those comments from
9 the DOT commissioner. So yes, we're looking
10 at the big picture on what the response was,
11 and we're always looking to do better.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN NORRIS: Thank you very
13 much.
14 Now I'd like to ask you about the
15 Thruway staffs. I travel, of course, every
16 week back and forth, out west towards
17 Buffalo. What is being done to thoroughly
18 examine the capacity at these sites as we go
19 forward? I mean, the one stop I have,
20 there's like restrooms there, there's very
21 limited space for people to actually eat
22 their food, to sit down or rest. We're
23 concerned about drowsiness in drivers. I
24 personally do not find them to be sufficient
406
1 as they're being designed right now. And I
2 know many of my constituents don't either.
3 What's being done to look at that
4 before the other ones are being constructed?
5 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Again, the
6 sites -- the size of the sites were
7 determined based on the traffic and based on
8 the data from the other sites.
9 The three that are up online now, that
10 opened first, are busier now. They're busier
11 now because there are other rest areas down.
12 We anticipate that -- and our planning
13 says that when they're all open, that you're
14 not going to see, at some of the smaller
15 sites, the crowds you're getting. Now,
16 Chenango is one of the smaller sites, and it
17 gets crowded, right, but -- but when the
18 system is entirely open and functioning with
19 all of them, we anticipate seeing a decrease
20 in the crowds, with that feeling of
21 crowdedness, at any individual site.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN NORRIS: And for our
23 tourist buses who are going to go back and
24 forth, particularly -- I represent, well,
407
1 Niagara County and Niagara Falls is part of
2 that. Is that going to be considered as
3 well, the number of tour buses that are
4 going?
5 Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for
6 answering my question.
7 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: There's a
8 relationship with bus companies. So we're
9 constantly advising them what's open and
10 what's not and where the bigger places are --
11 to go are.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN NORRIS: And make sure
13 there's space. Thank you very much.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
15 To the Senate now.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
17 Senator Borrello.
18 SENATOR BORRELLO: Thank you, Madam
19 Chair.
20 First of all, thank you all for being
21 here. I just want to direct my questions to
22 the executive director.
23 Let me start off by saying that I --
24 you know, I travel the Thruway a lot, and if
408
1 you had a frequent flyer program, I would be
2 at your top tier, tens of thousands of miles
3 a year.
4 I have lots of friends and family who
5 work for the Thruway. They do an amazing job
6 with keeping safe, they do a great job with
7 construction.
8 But with all that being said, I want
9 to address the toll hike. Now, you mentioned
10 that I believe in 2024 you're going to have a
11 $4 million deficit. I have concerns about
12 the nontransparency of the Thruway
13 Authority's operations. And so a specific
14 question, how many millions of dollars were
15 wasted on those nonfunctioning wind turbines
16 that are at the exits, at the Thruway exits?
17 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: There was
18 litigation over that, and the state was not
19 successful in suing the manufacturer of
20 that -- of those wind turbines.
21 SENATOR BORRELLO: Well, you know,
22 when these things happen, there's supposed to
23 be a process. You know, when you put up a
24 wind turbine, you're supposed to get --
409
1 you're supposed to follow local zoning laws,
2 there's public hearings. None of that
3 happened.
4 So it doesn't surprise me that you
5 guys bought these things from a company that
6 went bankrupt, and now these things are
7 sitting there.
8 So my question again was, how much
9 money was wasted on those?
10 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: I'd have to
11 get back to you, Senator, on that. I don't
12 have --
13 SENATOR BORRELLO: Well, I'd like to
14 know, because $4 million I think is a drop in
15 the bucket. I think that one of those wind
16 turbines was multiple millions of dollars to
17 construct, and now they sit there rusting
18 away, as a testament to waste.
19 So also, with that being said, I'm
20 going to -- I want you to understand that I
21 believe that -- I understand the tolls are
22 going up, or that's your recommendation. But
23 didn't we just save a lot of money with
24 cashless tolling? And what about all of the
410
1 hundreds if not thousands of employees that
2 were at toll booths? There was a savings
3 there. How did that -- how are we going, all
4 of a sudden so quickly, into a deficit after
5 what should have been, you know, hundreds of
6 millions of dollars in savings?
7 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE:
8 All-electronic tolling was not meant to save
9 money. It was meant to provide safety,
10 convenience to our customers, and help the
11 environment.
12 The cost for -- in shifting to that
13 program, costs were made. The gantries had
14 to be built, we still have costs related to
15 back office expenses. Sixteen percent of the
16 public do Tolls By Mail, so that entails
17 personnel.
18 So we have our -- so that's the answer
19 why AET is not saving money.
20 SENATOR BORRELLO: So it didn't save
21 any money with the tolling, all right.
22 All right. Well, I'll move on,
23 because I have a very short period of time.
24 I just want to associate myself with
411
1 the comments of some of my colleagues on
2 these new service areas. They're small,
3 they're crowded, they're already -- in my
4 opinion, they're not consistent on their
5 hours. But this company -- it's out of
6 Ireland, I believe? I'm just trying to
7 figure out what qualifications they had to
8 build Thruway Authority rest areas, because
9 the only qualifications I could find for this
10 company was that they made the right
11 political donations. Where did these guys
12 come from, and why are we not -- why are they
13 operating? How did they get this contract?
14 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Well, I'm
15 not here to do a public service plug for the
16 company, but I'll tell you they responded to
17 a public RFP and they met a very public and
18 transparent process. I want to tell you they
19 run service areas in New Jersey,
20 Pennsylvania, and throughout Europe. So
21 there was some basis.
22 SENATOR BORRELLO: All right, thank
23 you.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
412
1 Assembly.
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
3 Otis.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you, Chairs.
5 And thank you, Mark and Frank and Matt. Nice
6 to see you all.
7 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Thank
8 you.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: I have some
10 questions for the Thruway Authority, but
11 first a thank you, which is we've had a lot
12 of construction activity the last few years
13 with the last-mile project in my area, and
14 really appreciate the responsiveness with the
15 Thruway Authority. Anytime we've had a
16 problem with constituents and neighbors or
17 local governments, you've been great. So
18 kudos there.
19 And also, with our turnaround on I-95
20 with the Mamaroneck/New Rochelle border,
21 excellent job.
22 I have a follow-up question on the EV
23 charging situation. In your contract with
24 your outside partner there, you have the
413
1 ability to ramp up even more ambitiously than
2 the numbers that were stated here today. As
3 need is, you're able to ramp up the number of
4 charging stations at each rest area. That's
5 in the contract.
6 Could you give a little more detail
7 about what the mechanics of that are so that
8 people can hear, you know, what the legal
9 details are? Because I think we are probably
10 going to have to grow it to bigger numbers
11 than they're going to start off. And so what
12 are those details?
13 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Well,
14 right, we agree with you. The details are
15 that we will work with them cooperatively as
16 demand and capacity increases. There's also
17 a capacity issue, right? We're working with
18 PSC, the Public Service Commission, and
19 utilities to ensure that there's capacity at
20 these service areas so that we can increase.
21 Right now the commitment is 120. We
22 know we're going to need to grow that.
23 Right? That is our plan. We want to improve
24 and increase and add to those sites.
414
1 We also have charging stations at the
2 Governor Mario Cuomo Bridge landings, on both
3 sides. We have them at our commuter lots,
4 and we have them at the welcome centers. So
5 there's -- in addition to the service areas,
6 they will be throughout the system.
7 And we will continue to assess and
8 reassess to ensure that we get more and more
9 as demand grows.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: So we met a few
11 weeks ago, and one of the things that I
12 suggested -- and you're already doing solar
13 projects with NYPA, and that might be an
14 opportunity to expand that and get more
15 electricity online for charging as well.
16 So -- but thank you. That's all I
17 have. I'm even going to yield back some of
18 my time.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
20 We go to the Senate now.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Senator Cooney.
23 SENATOR COONEY: Thank you,
24 Madam Chair.
415
1 And my questions are directed to the
2 Thruway Authority.
3 Following up on our conversation
4 tonight about this Thruway capital project, I
5 want to direct my questions through the lens
6 of the Senate's Procurement and Contracts
7 Committee, which I chair -- specifically,
8 about the opportunities that may be coming
9 about through this renovation project.
10 How many jobs, directly or indirectly,
11 are estimated to be constructed over the
12 course of Phase 1 and Phase 2.
13 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Related to
14 the construction of the service areas?
15 SENATOR COONEY: Correct.
16 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: I don't
17 have that. I'll have to get back to you on
18 that. Unless you know.
19 THRUWAY CFO HOWARD: No.
20 SENATOR COONEY: You can get back to
21 me about that.
22 Senator Comrie brought up a great
23 point about the opportunity for these
24 large-scale projects to engage with minority
416
1 and women-owned business enterprises. MWBE
2 participation is terrific -- you cited
3 33.4 percent. Thank you for your leadership
4 on that.
5 I just want to make sure that with the
6 increase in costs that you referenced
7 earlier, Director, that these MWBE firms are
8 actually getting paid and getting paid on
9 time. Can you comment on that?
10 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: We've had
11 no complaints about somebody not getting
12 paid.
13 We have a very active program. We
14 have a whole office that deals with these
15 issues, not just on the service area
16 agreements, but on all our contracts, to
17 ensure that there's an MWBE presence and
18 they're meeting the state aspirational goals.
19 Our folks go out to job fairs, we go
20 out to schools. They're working with our
21 partners at OGS and Economic Development to
22 ensure that that program flourishes. And we
23 will -- we often give lists of MWBE companies
24 to bidders to make sure that they have them
417
1 available to them, because sometimes they'll
2 say, Well, you know, we're trying, and you
3 really do a job to hold their feet to the
4 fire to ensure that they're complying with
5 the program.
6 SENATOR COONEY: It's often these
7 smaller companies that fall victim to having
8 to deal with cost increases that were
9 unexpected. You talked about the cost of
10 steel, the cost of asphalt, which is why you
11 need to have this toll increase.
12 But I'm sure that there are additional
13 costs for the construction of these
14 facilities, and so I'm concerned that that
15 might fall upon the contractors involved with
16 the project. And so I want to make sure that
17 this program is successful. I want to make
18 sure that folks who have bid on these
19 contracts have the opportunity to get this
20 work and to earn a decent wage.
21 This Legislature did pass legislation
22 in the past noting the cost increases due to
23 the global health pandemic that we went
24 through. The Governor did veto that
418
1 legislation. But I am conscious of the fact
2 that -- I am worried that this project may go
3 over budget. And I know you're working very
4 hard to make sure that it continues to go on
5 forward, but I wanted to be on the record
6 that this is a job-creation program as much
7 as it is about amenities for our state
8 residents.
9 So thank you very much.
10 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Thank you.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. We
12 go to Assemblywoman Simon.
13 SENATOR SIMON: Thank you.
14 Commissioner Schroeder, I want to
15 thank you for the conversation the other day
16 and your commitment to revisit disability
17 access issues throughout the DMV and its
18 operations. I'm looking forward to hearing
19 more about that.
20 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Thank
21 you.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: I also wanted to
23 ask -- you know, you were asked a question
24 about impaired driving, and Senator Liu and I
419
1 have a bill to reduce the blood alcohol
2 content to .05, which is recommended by the
3 National Transportation Safety Board. Is
4 this something that would -- how would your
5 agency interface with that, if at all?
6 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: So thank
7 you, Assemblymember. So I am very aware that
8 in the State of Utah, that's exactly what the
9 rate is, it's 0.05 percent.
10 So this would be a legislative matter.
11 This would be something for the Assembly and
12 the Senate to deliberate on.
13 And -- and -- you also know that I
14 also serve as the chair of the Governor's
15 Traffic Safety Committee. So we would be
16 willing to work with you in any way to
17 provide information for you, because we have
18 it readily. We do major reports each and
19 every year. We distribute about $48 million
20 worth of grants throughout the State of
21 New York. These are federal grants coming
22 through the Governor's Traffic Safety
23 Committee. So we would be very willing to
24 work with you and with Senator Liu as well.
420
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Great, thank
2 you.
3 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: You're
4 welcome.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: And then with
6 regard to the Thruway Authority, I'm not
7 going to get into the toll angle, although I
8 think the tolls are higher from Brooklyn to
9 Albany than they are anywhere else. I'm
10 joking.
11 But I also would, with regard to the
12 replacement of the rest stops, I would
13 implore you to put Shake Shack in the ones
14 that I go to the most often.
15 (Laughter.)
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
17 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: We'll get
18 on that.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
21 Senator Oberacker, a ranker, for five.
22 SENATOR OBERACKER: Thank you.
23 And, gentlemen, thank you all for
24 coming in and giving us your testimony today.
421
1 My first question would be to our DMV,
2 Commissioner Schroeder. So as a owner of
3 horses -- an equestrian, I guess would be the
4 word that they use -- and as I've traveled
5 around, I see a lot of out-of-state plates
6 that are on trailers for horses. Not to kind
7 of berate the State of Maine, but a lot of
8 them I know are registered in Maine.
9 And so what I was wondering is, is
10 there a way that maybe we're missing out on
11 some potential revenue stream by not looking
12 at or changing some of our processes. I know
13 you can get like a longer registration in the
14 State of Maine for a trailer. I know the
15 rates seem to be a little bit better for
16 longer. So is that something that maybe we
17 could look at and --
18 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Yes.
19 Yes. In fact, you know, I've been prepping
20 now for months, and so this has not come up
21 one time. So I'm glad you brought it up.
22 And I will work with staff to look into this,
23 because this could be an opportunity for
24 New York. This is exactly the reason why
422
1 you're presenting it to me.
2 So I appreciate it, and we will get
3 back to you offline and tell you what we've
4 found and how we might be able to work
5 together. We may be able to be helpful
6 without any legislation or amending the VTL.
7 So we'll look at that first. But if we do
8 need help, you'll be the first one to know
9 about it.
10 SENATOR OBERACKER: Well, I thank you
11 for that. And if you could, if it affects
12 rates too much, please strike this so my wife
13 doesn't, you know, kick me out of the house,
14 so to speak. So thank you, Commissioner --
15 (Laughter.)
16 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Yeah,
17 it'll be between you and me.
18 SENATOR OBERACKER: -- on that. I
19 appreciate that.
20 My next question would be for our
21 Thruway Authority. It's actually two
22 questions, quick, that I think could probably
23 be answered together.
24 Is there any thought or is there any
423
1 process involved with the study of increasing
2 the speed limit on the Thruway?
3 And if there is any thought process to
4 reissuing, if you will, the exit and the mile
5 markers. When I've traveled around a lot to
6 some of the other highways, if you will,
7 there seems to be like a -- if it was a
8 200-mile marker, the exit's 200 and so on.
9 So I'm just wondering if there's any thought
10 process down the road for instituting that on
11 the Thruway.
12 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: On your
13 first question, no.
14 On the second, we're looking at that.
15 Senator Griffo has raised that. There's a
16 number of issues and complications to doing
17 that. But we certainly again always will
18 take the time and be respectful to the
19 Legislature to look at any issue that's
20 raised.
21 SENATOR OBERACKER: Great. And
22 you've answered my questions in such a
23 concise and quick manner, I'd like it noted
24 that I'm giving back my two minutes. Thank
424
1 you.
2 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: You're
3 welcome.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And we thank you.
5 And the Assembly's done, so the
6 Senate's just -- oh, wait. Oh, they just
7 keep popping up like flowers.
8 (Laughter.)
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I'm sorry.
10 Assemblyman.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN BURGOS: Thank you, Madam
12 Chair.
13 My question is for the Thruway. So
14 you guys obviously are responsible for 570
15 miles of highway, and part of that is your
16 contractual relationship with E-ZPass. I'll
17 be honest with you, there is not a single
18 issue I think in New York State that unifies
19 New Yorkers more than their disdain for
20 E-ZPass.
21 I hear countless stories of, you know,
22 overcharging and really just terrible
23 administrative policies. Just last year, I
24 believe, your authority acknowledged that
425
1 59,000 people were overcharged at the
2 Lackawanna toll gantry near Buffalo. And,
3 you know, I've heard stories of bills not
4 being mailed, bills sent to collections -- I
5 mean, it's really not uncommon for me to hear
6 from constituents that they have a $6,000
7 bill, or $12,000 -- I've heard of $18,000 in
8 unpaid fines.
9 And these are not fines that they
10 don't want to pay. The problem is that we
11 have many counts of E-ZPass not mailing it to
12 the constituents in a timely manner, not
13 mailing at all, and instead the first notice
14 they get is for collections.
15 Now, this has a huge impact. I mean,
16 one, it's a huge bill, but constituents can
17 then no longer register their car. And in my
18 district, where the average median income is
19 about $35,000, having a car is not a luxury,
20 it's a means to feed your family, to get to
21 work, to just do everyday things.
22 So in your testimony you mention about
23 10 percent of bills are not through E-ZPass,
24 but only 60 percent are paid. So out of that
426
1 10 percent, 40 percent of people are not
2 paying.
3 But again, I reiterate -- am I not
4 clear on that? Out of the 10 percent it says
5 here -- it says 10 percent don't have an
6 E-ZPass -- 6 percent have paid in a timely
7 manner, and the remaining 4 percent are
8 subject to the ongoing collections process.
9 So 40 percent of that 10 percent are not
10 paying.
11 And what I'm saying is you cannot
12 throw all the blame on New Yorkers there.
13 Part of this is administrative. So what are
14 you -- because right now we're proposing an
15 increase in tolls in 2024. I think before we
16 can talk about an increase in tolls, we have
17 to fix the E-ZPass system. I mean,
18 New Yorkers' cars are being taken away.
19 They're hit with thousands of dollars of
20 bills.
21 So, you know, I just want to know at
22 the Thruway Authority, what are we doing to
23 basically clean up E-ZPass's act?
24 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Well,
427
1 again, let's acknowledge that if somebody
2 doesn't pay their bill within 30 days, they
3 get a second letter, a warning letter, the
4 first one. Then another one 30 days later,
5 and another one 30 days after that.
6 So they don't -- it's not sent to
7 collections until 120 days, four months after
8 that. Right? So we -- we're not in the law
9 enforcement business. We're not looking to
10 take anybody's car. We just want folks to
11 pay their bill, not only because they owe it
12 to the Thruway Authority, but it's fair to
13 everybody else who's actually paying their
14 bill.
15 And as we said, 90 percent pay within
16 that first 30 days.
17 I would say to you if you know
18 somebody that has a multiple-thousand-dollar
19 bill, you should call me and we will go
20 through that and review that. Because that
21 process of going to a collection agency
22 doesn't happen until at least a four-month
23 period.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN BURGOS: I have two quick
428
1 things I just want to say again, because
2 people just are not receiving it sometimes.
3 This is not uncommon.
4 So I'm saying I understand the
5 mailing, but we just have to clean it up,
6 where, you know, again, people's cars may be
7 registered somewhere else -- I know it's
8 difficult, but we have to clean this act up
9 so people can be notified of the bills.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
11 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: And people
12 need to contact their E-ZPass when they move,
13 right, so that the bill keeps up with them.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN BURGOS: (Inaudible.)
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you,
16 Assemblyman Burgos.
17 So now we go on to the Senate.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. And
19 we go on to Senator John Liu.
20 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair.
21 I -- I'm going to be quick. I just
22 want to thank Commissioner Schroeder for
23 being proactive with the DMV and helping
24 New Yorkers get their REAL ID. In fact, he
429
1 came out to Queens to do some on the ground
2 outreach, and lo and behold, the same day we
3 were going to announce the REAL ID effort to
4 get everybody done by this coming May, the
5 federal government announced a two-year
6 extension.
7 So I don't know how you worked that
8 magic, Commissioner, but it just gives
9 New Yorkers more time to get compliant with
10 REAL ID on their licenses. But we still want
11 New Yorkers to just get it done quickly.
12 Don't wait for another two years before the
13 deadline approaches.
14 And with regard to the
15 Thruway Authority, I concur with everything
16 that my colleagues have said about the rest
17 areas. I will only thank you for, you know,
18 I read that we're getting rid of McDonald's
19 and replacing them with Burger King, is that
20 right?
21 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Yes.
22 SENATOR LIU: Thank you!
23 Thank you, Madam Chair.
24 (Laughter.)
430
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: All right. Thank
2 you, John Liu.
3 Senator Gonzalez.
4 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Thank you,
5 Madam Chair. And thank you all so much for
6 being here.
7 My question is for the commissioner of
8 the Department of Motor Vehicles,
9 Commissioner Schroeder. So I am the chair of
10 Internet and Technology, and a priority of
11 mine is expanding personal data protection
12 and preventing governmental and corporate
13 surveillance.
14 So this is a question I asked in our
15 previous session, but, you know, in regards
16 to that, last year the Department of Motor
17 Vehicles was granted roughly 100 million in
18 appropriations for a Transformation Plan.
19 The stated purpose for these increases is
20 investments in technology and process
21 improvements to enhance the DMV customer
22 experience.
23 I'm curious what technology
24 investments you are making, what customer
431
1 experience investments does that include, and
2 then does this plan include any new data
3 protections for New Yorkers?
4 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Thank
5 you. And so the way I would explain this, we
6 were very grateful to the Governor last year
7 and to the Legislature for underwriting the
8 $108 million for the transformation and tech
9 redesign of DMV. It's been very, very
10 important, because as I mentioned earlier,
11 some of the data lines date back -- the
12 legacy lines date back to the 1960s. This is
13 the reason why there are so many different
14 outages and also glitches around New York
15 State.
16 So what we've done is we've taken this
17 very seriously. This will not be just a
18 one-month project or a one-year project.
19 Right? This is probably going to be three to
20 five years to totally be able to transform
21 DMV and all of our offices.
22 I ask the question each and every
23 day -- and this would fit into the committee
24 that you run -- I ask the question to DMV,
432
1 what will DMV look like in 2030, because of
2 all the technology, because right now
3 New Yorkers have the ability to do
4 74 transactions online.
5 And so we have had a very successful
6 year. I mentioned earlier we have the Live
7 Chat. So rather than have customers wait on
8 the phone and get aggravated, there are ways
9 for customers to be able to do the Live Chat
10 back and forth, and we give them the
11 information that they need.
12 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Okay, that sounds
13 great. Sorry to cut you off, but very
14 quickly --
15 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: No,
16 that's okay.
17 SENATOR GONZALEZ: The Driver's
18 Privacy Protection Act allows State DMV to
19 sell driver data for both marketing and
20 distribution, if the state has obtained
21 express consent from individuals. Does the
22 DMV do this currently? Are we getting -- so
23 do you sell that data, and are we getting
24 individual consent? As it's permitted under,
433
1 again, the --
2 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: There --
3 there is a process through the authorization
4 of the Legislature for us to work with, like,
5 insurance companies and things of that
6 nature, so that they have the information
7 that they need. For instance, for like
8 recalls and things of that nature.
9 But we at DMV are very clear in terms
10 of who we share information with and who we
11 don't share information with. We're very
12 clear about that.
13 SENATOR GONZALEZ: I'll follow up
14 another time, but curious how that individual
15 consent is obtained, as under the Federal
16 Privacy Protection Act.
17 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Okay.
18 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Great. Thanks.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Thank
20 you, Senator.
21 I guess I'm the last one to go.
22 So for the Thruway Authority, I know
23 you talked about the percentage that we're so
24 much below other states, and we have talked
434
1 about that. And I can't believe we kicked
2 the can down the road so long that now we
3 find ourselves having to do a significant
4 jump. And personally I would have preferred
5 to see it go up every year a little bit.
6 But can you tell me, if you know, what
7 percentage of the people who pay tolls are
8 actual New York residents versus out of state
9 versus national trucks?
10 THRUWAY CFO HOWARD: So for passenger
11 cars, about 74 percent of, you know, our
12 customer base is New York E-ZPass accounts.
13 The remaining 24 percent, it's about
14 16 percent I think are non-New York E-ZPass
15 accounts, and about 10, I believe, are
16 Toll by Mail customers.
17 So I know that, you know, when you
18 look to the commercial side, the vast
19 majority of that 17 percent of our commercial
20 traffic are New York accounts. There's only
21 about 3 percent of the 17 that's commercial
22 that are either non-New York or Toll by Mail
23 customers.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So, so many
435
1 trucks come from out of state; do they just
2 not take the Thruway?
3 THRUWAY CFO HOWARD: No, actually, you
4 know, we have a disproportionate share of
5 commercial traffic use New York accounts. A
6 big reason for that is we have, you know,
7 commercial discount programs that are
8 advantageous to truckers. So, you know, many
9 of the companies actually sign up for a
10 New York E-ZPass account.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Mark,
12 for DMV. Hi.
13 So I had a couple of mechanics in my
14 district -- now, I have a little weird of a
15 district, I have zero gas stations in my
16 district. Because no one can afford to have
17 a gas station in my district. I know
18 everyone else is going, What is she talking
19 about, there's not one gas station. But I
20 have a few mechanics who still do vehicle
21 inspections.
22 And they've said, why are we still
23 doing it this way? Cars aren't what they
24 were 40 years ago. Cars that were built in
436
1 the last -- even they'll say 15 years, they
2 don't have problems every two years. Or they
3 don't have problems when they're two years
4 old, four years old, six years old, eight
5 years old. Why do you make everybody have
6 such frequent inspections? Because frankly
7 we don't have enough people to work in our
8 shops, and it's taking away from our ability
9 to do other work because we have to do all of
10 these vehicle inspections.
11 And they were telling me that even gas
12 stations in New York City are talking about
13 pulling out of being inspection stations
14 because it's actually such a problem for
15 them.
16 Is there any logic to our thinking
17 about changing the rules of how often you
18 have to have modern cars inspected?
19 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Yes,
20 Senator, we are totally open to it. In fact,
21 several years ago it was talked about from a
22 DMV perspective, the Chamber and the
23 Legislature, about really changing that.
24 This would be the time really to look
437
1 at it. Right now I'm sure the mechanics may
2 have told you about what is called NYVIP3.
3 This is new equipment that they are required
4 to get because the old equipment is 10 years
5 old. And so we're working with all of the
6 inspection stations across New York State.
7 But this would be the perfect time for
8 us to really look at it and to figure out a
9 way, is there some permanent different
10 situations that could take place so that they
11 don't have to do these things, you know,
12 every year or every two years.
13 We are totally open. And I would
14 be -- we work with a lot of different
15 organizations. The auto dealers, they also
16 have inspection stations across New York
17 State. So this is a great subject matter,
18 and we would be willing to take it to the
19 next level with you, Senator.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. Thank you.
21 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: You're
22 welcome.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And this is a
24 perpetual problem for New York City -- I
438
1 don't know about the rest of the state. If
2 you just go up and down streets and look at
3 the cars parked on the streets, half of them
4 have out-of-state licenses. Personally I
5 think half of them come from Vermont. I
6 think there are more cars with license plates
7 from Vermont in New York City than there are
8 people living in Vermont.
9 Is there anything ever we're going to
10 be able to figure out to do about that?
11 Because I think they're registering in other
12 states probably to save some kind of
13 insurance money or fees money, but then
14 they're taking up the very limited street
15 parking spaces in New York City, which has
16 actually become a crisis issue in some
17 neighborhoods.
18 And, like, somebody must have come up
19 with some way to be able to track that this
20 car isn't really from Vermont, it's really
21 from, with all due respect, Brooklyn or
22 Queens or Manhattan.
23 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Senator,
24 believe it or not, I did anticipate this
439
1 question because you have been concerned
2 about it in the past. And the real question
3 would go to Connecticut and New Jersey and
4 the other states --
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Any other state
6 you want, fine.
7 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Yeah. So
8 what we're trying to do is -- there is an
9 organization, a nationwide organization
10 called AAMVA. AAMVA's like DMV on steroids.
11 It's for all DMVs across the nation. All
12 50 states belong to AAMVA. And so this is a
13 question that we have posed to them to find
14 out why does this happen. And there would be
15 no doubt disadvantages to New York if people
16 who reside in the City of New York and have
17 license plates that don't reflect that,
18 that's a disadvantage.
19 So we -- I will have an answer way
20 before next year's hearing.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I have to wait a
22 whole year?
23 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: No. No,
24 no, before. Like in a month.
440
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. All right.
2 Thank you.
3 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: You're
4 welcome.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I think that's
6 it. For us.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
8 Thank you for being here. Sorry, I had to
9 make a presentation, so I wasn't able to hear
10 the beginning of your testimony, but I do --
11 I have read it.
12 So thank you all for -- thank you both
13 for -- all three of you for being here.
14 And we are now going to move on to
15 the -- that's it.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you,
17 everyone.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
19 Thank you.
20 INTERIM EXEC. DIR. HOARE: Thank you.
21 DMV COMMISSIONER SCHROEDER: Thank you
22 for having us. Thank you.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: You can drive
24 away.
441
1 So now we are going to move on to the
2 public portion of our Transportation Budget
3 Hearing, as the agency folks leave. And as
4 published on -- posted on the website, we
5 have three different panels.
6 We're just going to wait.
7 (Off the record.)
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So we are -- if
9 people could take conversations out of the
10 room. If people could take conversations out
11 of the room.
12 So we have several panels as we move
13 on in the Transportation hearing. If you're
14 following along, Panel B: The New York
15 Public Transit Association, Bill Carpenter,
16 president; Permanent Citizens Advisory
17 Committee to the MTA, Lisa Daglian, executive
18 director; Associated General Contractors of
19 New York State, Walter Pacholczak -- I'm sure
20 I totally mispronounced that -- vice
21 president of government affairs. Now you
22 know why I call you "Walter."
23 So if we can go in that order. And I
24 just remind these witnesses and those ones
442
1 coming that we do have your testimony and it
2 was distributed to all members over the
3 weekend. And so just in terms of the verbal
4 presentation, there is a three-minute clock,
5 and so we encourage you to summarize your
6 testimony.
7 So why don't we start with New York
8 Public Transit Association.
9 MR. CARPENTER: Thank you,
10 Chairwoman Weinstein and Chairwoman Krueger,
11 for your support of public transportation and
12 giving NYPTA the opportunity to testify
13 today. And thank you, Chairmen Kennedy,
14 Comrie, Magnarelli, and Zebrowski, and
15 members of both your houses that are so
16 supportive of public transit.
17 I'm Bill Carpenter, president of
18 NYPTA. Earlier -- much earlier -- you heard
19 from the MTA addressing their financial
20 needs. Addressing their financial needs is
21 critical to the state economy, and we support
22 their priorities. I will focus my comments
23 on upstate transit systems and downstate
24 suburban systems.
443
1 The COVID-19 pandemic underscored the
2 importance of good public transportation
3 services, and now our customers are returning
4 and communities are demanding more transit
5 service and new mobility options.
6 The state climate plan states that
7 New York can achieve its climate goals
8 through historic investments in expanded
9 public transportation and micromobility.
10 Expanding public transit and mobility is the
11 way of the future and not only supports goals
12 for climate change but also for economic
13 development, affordable housing, downtown
14 revitalization, social equity, and access to
15 healthcare and education.
16 But financial challenges are holding
17 us back and will grow in the future if not
18 addressed. All transit systems face similar
19 financial challenges as the MTA -- loss of
20 revenues, impact of inflation, rise in
21 capital needs from the costly transition to
22 zero emission vehicles, and customer demands
23 for more services.
24 Upstate transit faces a further hurdle
444
1 in being dependent on state general funds.
2 In the state executive budget, 40 percent of
3 upstate transit funding is from general
4 funds, only 60 percent from dedicated funds.
5 The MTA and downstate suburbs -- 99 percent
6 of state aid is dedicated -- is from
7 dedicated funds.
8 We thank Governor Hochul for
9 recognizing the importance of public transit
10 in her Executive Budget. The MTA has a
11 25 percent increase; downstate suburbs an
12 8.5 percent increase; upstate transit
13 systems, 7.1 percent.
14 Importantly, the Executive Budget
15 proposes new dedicated revenues for the MTA.
16 NYPTA supports the Governor's commitment to
17 put MTA's financials on a sound footing and
18 urges the same commitment to upstate
19 communities. Fixing upstate funding
20 challenges requires robust dedicated revenues
21 to replace the current underperforming
22 sources.
23 In closing, the MTA is NYPTA's largest
24 member, and we strongly support the
445
1 Governor's funding for the MTA and new
2 dedicated revenues. But why would the state
3 only address the financial needs of its
4 largest transit system when all smaller ones
5 face similar circumstances? Finding
6 sufficient, dedicated resources to address
7 the transit needs in the rest of the state
8 takes only a little more lifting beyond
9 what's required for the MTA.
10 We urge the Governor and the
11 Legislature to act this year. Thank you.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
13 Lisa?
14 MS. DAGLIAN: Thank you, and good
15 evening. I know it's been a long day.
16 I'm Lisa Daglian, and I'm the
17 executive director of the Permanent Citizens
18 Advisory Committee to the MTA, or PCAC. We
19 were created by the State Legislature --
20 thank you -- in 1981 to represent riders on
21 the Long Island Rail Road, Metro-North, and
22 New York City subways, buses, and
23 Staten Island Railroad.
24 Our work primarily focuses on
446
1 advocating on behalf of riders and advising
2 the MTA on operational performance and
3 capital projects. Our work also includes
4 support for adequate funding and improving
5 transparency, and that's why we're here
6 today.
7 We're thrilled that 2023 is shaping up
8 to be the year of trains and buses -- and
9 riders -- and we really appreciate your
10 support and look forward to working with you
11 as you continue to work through the budget,
12 and are ready to answer any questions that
13 you may have.
14 The commitment of $8.3 billion in the
15 Governor's Executive Budget in total state
16 operating aid will go a long way to keeping
17 the MTA away from the edge of the fiscal
18 cliff. And I was really happy to hear
19 Chairman Leiber today saying that they were
20 looking at the $400 million in operating
21 efficiencies as a way to cut from the budget
22 without cutting service. Because cutting
23 service is in fact a way to drive riders
24 away, at a time when we really need to bring
447
1 riders back and to make sure that there is
2 the best, most affordable, most reliable and
3 accessible service that there can be so that
4 more people will want to get onboard.
5 We think the $300 million direct
6 payment to the MTA is a great start, and we
7 think it should happen all the time
8 off-budget and that it be adjusted for
9 inflation. If we can find $300 million for
10 this year, let's find it for every year.
11 We also think that the PMT and the
12 casino funding mechanisms are great starts,
13 but that there are other options and
14 opportunities. And we look forward to
15 working with you on those and are developing
16 a funding thermometer that's a great visual
17 tool that we'll be able to share with you
18 more thoroughly in the next week or so.
19 In our testimony we look at other
20 areas of support and on the TED Act, in terms
21 of A, B, F, H, and I, which I won't go into
22 too much detail, as you're aware of them.
23 But I really want to talk about the Fix the
24 MTA proposals.
448
1 We're largely in support of almost --
2 we're in support of just about all of them.
3 And, you know, giving our members the
4 opportunity to have a voting role on the MTA
5 board would really bring home the importance
6 of riders in the entire equation of
7 developing a budget and representing the
8 millions of riders on the board with a voting
9 membership.
10 So I'm happy to answer any questions
11 that you may have and speak with you after or
12 before or any other time.
13 Thank you.
14 MR. PACHOLCZAK: Good evening,
15 Chairs Krueger, Weinstein, Kennedy,
16 Magnarelli, and members of the Legislature.
17 My name is Walter Pacholczak. I'm vice
18 president of government affairs for the
19 Associated General Contractors of New York
20 State.
21 AGCNYS is a group of about 600 or so
22 construction companies that represent both
23 union and open-shop businesses. We have
24 nearly 80 years of experience working in this
449
1 field of work, and we are the state affiliate
2 of the Associated General Contractors of
3 America.
4 Given the time of day today, I'm going
5 to forgo reading my testimony today. But I
6 wanted to talk about two themes that occurred
7 here throughout this hearing -- and I've been
8 here all day, so it's been a very long one.
9 I think the first theme here is that
10 the Legislature and your constituents want
11 better service on your trains. You want
12 better tunnels. You want trains that are on
13 time. You want to make sure they are safe
14 and people are safe on trains.
15 We also heard a lot today about
16 potholes and the pothole situation. And no
17 matter how much we throw at paving our
18 potholes, it never seems like it's enough
19 here. It never seems like it's enough.
20 We talked about old bridges, both on
21 the Thruway and on the DOT side of things.
22 People want more. You want more as
23 legislators. You know, part of that wanting
24 more comes with a cost. That cost is
450
1 reflected in, again, another recurring theme
2 here today -- inflation. Inflation is not
3 only just driving, you know, your day-to-day
4 operations, but it's the cost of gasoline in
5 your car, buying a $5 now dozen of eggs that
6 I guess they are now that I bought yesterday.
7 But inflation on construction
8 materials is severely limiting the amount of
9 projects the MTA has, the amount of projects
10 that the DOT has, as well as the Thruway
11 Authority -- and any infrastructure, for that
12 matter.
13 You know, this also comes into play
14 with some of our partners. It's not just
15 contractors that are saying, you know, we
16 need more money for roads and bridges and
17 mass transit; it's our partners in organized
18 labor, it's our partners at the
19 municipalities, whether it's the towns, the
20 counties, the highway superintendents. You
21 know, it's a much broader group of us -- a
22 much broader group than just contractors
23 saying, Here, give us more money, we need it.
24 I think if you also look back at the
451
1 various inflation adjustments that this
2 Legislature has made, most recently last
3 year, in 2022, when we had a COVID materials
4 price escalation bill that was passed but
5 unfortunately vetoed -- look back at '04,
6 when the Legislature realized that steel was
7 a problem, there were adjustments made there.
8 And look right here at the South Mall, here
9 in the building of the South Mall and the
10 Empire State Plaza back in '69, '73, and
11 1976. The Legislature took action and
12 adjusted prices for those materials, price
13 escalations and increases.
14 So two, one here -- my time is up.
15 Thank you all, I appreciate it.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
17 We go to Assemblyman Ed Ra.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you, Chair.
19 Lisa, I was wondering if you could
20 elaborate a little bit -- you mentioned
21 having a member having a voting role on the
22 MTA board. Obviously this is -- we have a
23 proposal dealing with giving the MTA more
24 funding that will be on a sustainable basis.
452
1 I think we all recognize the
2 importance of the MTA and the importance of
3 all of the component systems, but one of the
4 things that has come up, I would say
5 certainly with my constituents when they hear
6 about these proposals, is what structural
7 reform is going on within the MTA. Because
8 we do tend to every decade or so end up in
9 this type of situation where we're looking
10 for some new funding source.
11 So do you or your group have any
12 further thoughts about things that might be
13 done within the MTA to -- along with this
14 infusion of a new funding source -- put them
15 on a good solid track going forward?
16 MS. DAGLIAN: Sure. So PCAC has been
17 looking into these -- into fiscal
18 responsibility and transparency at the MTA
19 for decades. But it's never as important as
20 it is now. And transparency, I think, is
21 really critical, particularly as more
22 information is available and it's so dense.
23 So there are a number of pieces of
24 legislation that are before you that are part
453
1 of the Fix the MTA package, and a part that
2 are separate, to improve and enhance
3 transparency, including fixing the capital
4 program dashboard.
5 So I urge you to look at those. And,
6 you know, Senator Comrie has certainly been
7 on top of that and a major advocate of that
8 for years.
9 For the voting membership that I spoke
10 of -- so our -- we have three non-voting
11 members on the board, including a Metro-North
12 representative who is a West of Hudson rider,
13 including the longest-serving MTA board
14 member, who brings a lot of knowledge but not
15 a vote.
16 So having that actual voice who is not
17 at the -- who can't be removed when somebody
18 leaves office but who is selected by fellow
19 riders, to be able to weigh in and to make
20 change from within, we think is very
21 important.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Great. Well, I just
23 want to say thank you to all three of you for
24 your patience today. I think your
454
1 perspectives are very important to our
2 discussion.
3 MS. DAGLIAN: Thank you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Tim
6 Kennedy.
7 SENATOR KENNEDY: Thank you,
8 Chairwoman.
9 Lisa, thank you for that explanation.
10 You actually answered my question that I had
11 for you.
12 I want to go to Bill quickly about
13 STOA. Tell us the need for STOA. You're
14 looking for 20 percent for upstate non-MTA.
15 Can you explain how that will be used and the
16 problems with only getting a 7 percent bump?
17 MR. CARPENTER: Yeah, the increased
18 demand that we're seeing in our
19 communities -- communities like Rochester,
20 where in order to move out of poverty the
21 state is investing in a lot of other
22 services, but they lack the mobility to take
23 advantage of those services -- mental health,
24 healthcare, job access.
455
1 The move to zero-emission vehicles
2 amend training the employees. So operating
3 dollars to make our communities better, make
4 the transit system better.
5 We saw downstate last year get a
6 36 percent increase because they had the
7 dedicated revenues afforded that. Upstate
8 had 15 percent, so there's about a 20 percent
9 gap last year. And this year again, the
10 dedicated resources downstate are allowing a
11 little bit more of an increase than upstate.
12 SENATOR KENNEDY: So it sounds like
13 there is systemic instability for these
14 authorities upstate?
15 MR. CARPENTER: Upstate.
16 SENATOR KENNEDY: Okay. We need to
17 rectify that. We look forward to working
18 with you and your organization over the next
19 several weeks. Hopefully we can get the
20 numbers up where they need to be.
21 When I go back to Walter, describe for
22 us really the issues on the ground with the
23 lack of funding. Again, you heard me
24 earlier, I saw you here all day -- again,
456
1 thank you all for your patience. You heard
2 what was said about the historic levels of
3 funding.
4 How is that being undercut on the
5 ground, what you're seeing in the workforce
6 on these construction sites?
7 MR. PACHOLCZAK: Well, absolutely.
8 Thank you, Senator, that is a great question.
9 Last year when you advanced and the
10 Senate advanced that $44 billion
11 transportation infrastructure proposal for
12 DOT, a lot of contractors were very, very
13 pleased by that. And for good reason. Costs
14 are going up across the board. Whether it's
15 just construction materials, there's
16 workforce shortages, there's also new
17 mandates that the state puts on us, and it
18 costs us more time and money on back-office
19 stuff.
20 I think that, moving forward, we can't
21 let it come to a point where we let
22 maintenance fall too far behind. And I think
23 having a five-year capital program with
24 certain additions to that in this budget and
457
1 of future years, particularly on some of
2 those signature projects that are unfunded in
3 those final two years of this five-year plan,
4 that will take us a long way in rectifying
5 and making this a better system of
6 infrastructure for taxpayers.
7 SENATOR KENNEDY: Do you believe that
8 the roads will get better or deteriorate over
9 the next five years if we do not put more
10 money into the five-year capital plan?
11 MR. PACHOLCZAK: I think a lot of that
12 depends on what happens in both the Assembly
13 and the Senate and the final budget agreement
14 with the Governor. And we have time to make
15 changes and make the right changes.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
17 Assembly?
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman
19 Shimsky.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SHIMSKY: Thank you very
21 much, Madam Chairwoman.
22 Mr. Pacholczak, I'm basically going to
23 address this to you, although if anyone else
24 has any other ideas, I would be happy to hear
458
1 them.
2 We all know that the amount of money
3 that is being proposed -- whether it's to fix
4 the roads, whether it's to fix the bridges,
5 whatever it is -- is only going to fix a
6 relatively small percentage of what should be
7 fixed today. We're not talking about two or
8 three years down the road.
9 What, in your mind, are some of the
10 things we might be able to do in the budget
11 to get the most bang for our buck in terms of
12 funding more repairs?
13 MR. PACHOLCZAK: Well, thank you,
14 Assemblywoman.
15 Don't delay. The longer you wait, the
16 more expensive it becomes to fix things.
17 Okay? If you have a leaky roof, you know,
18 you can put patches on it, but eventually the
19 leak is going to come through your whole home
20 and ruin your house.
21 So investing now and investing down
22 the road so that when businesses can plan for
23 these things, businesses can plan for capital
24 expenditures, businesses can plan to try to
459
1 settle or solve workforce shortages, giving
2 contractors that stability moving forward,
3 will bring other players in, other
4 subcontractors and others here into the
5 state.
6 And competition is a good thing. And
7 the more work we have, the more competition,
8 and the better it is for the taxpayer as
9 well.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SHIMSKY: Do you think
11 a transportation bond might be a good idea at
12 this point?
13 MR. PACHOLCZAK: Yes, we've had
14 transportation bond acts in prior years.
15 But I think a more dedicated stream,
16 something like what the Senate proposed last
17 year and something that the Governor has
18 proposed this year -- there needs to be a
19 big -- maybe more of a middle ground on that.
20 MR. CARPENTER: Yeah, I think -- to
21 answer your first question -- to have it be a
22 certain period of time, five or 10 years.
23 When you've got assets that need to be
24 repaired or replaced and you have a one-year
460
1 bill or a two-year bill -- you make different
2 decisions when you know this is the funding
3 you'll have for the next five or the
4 next 10 years.
5 So you can make wiser investments.
6 Lower investment up-front can go a lot
7 longer. So immediacy and then a long-term
8 commitment.
9 MS. DAGLIAN: If I can just add, I
10 think the more money the better, but it has
11 to be spent wisely and it has to be
12 transparently shown how the money is being
13 used and that it's being used in the best way
14 possible.
15 And I think there's so much to do and
16 there's just not enough money, so the more
17 the better. I said yes to a bond act, but
18 we're happy to work with you on that. But
19 maybe that's not my place right here.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SHIMSKY: Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Leroy
23 Comrie.
24 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you,
461
1 Madam Chairs.
2 I don't have any direct questions. I
3 just want to thank you for your consistent
4 focus on reviewing this from the different
5 areas.
6 I'm happy to support -- I understand
7 the need for funding for the upstate
8 roadways. Thanks to President Carpenter and
9 Walter. Thank you for continuing to focus on
10 making sure that contractors not only are
11 able to get the work, but produce it and turn
12 it around quickly.
13 And Lisa, I can't thank you enough for
14 the information that you've imbued and your
15 consistent focus and your dedication to
16 trying to make the system better by your
17 positive outlook and focus on making sure
18 that people really think about how the MTA is
19 funded.
20 MS. DAGLIAN: Thank you.
21 SENATOR COMRIE: So I would ask you,
22 you know, just one brief question on
23 Penn Station. Where do you -- what do you --
24 where do you see this going?
462
1 MS. DAGLIAN: Right into it.
2 So Penn Station -- the Penn Station
3 project is really important. And our most --
4 our number-one priority is fixing it for
5 riders as soon as possible. Understanding
6 that making sure that it's a transit and
7 transportation system, not just for now but
8 for the future, is -- must also be a
9 priority.
10 But making sure that it's a place that
11 people don't want to get out of, but they
12 want to go. I spent an hour and a half in
13 Grand Central Madison the other night walking
14 around. Nobody does that in Penn Station
15 unless they've missed the last train.
16 All right? So making sure it's a
17 place that people want to -- don't want to
18 just run out of, but a place that is, in
19 fact, a train hall. And maybe not a
20 destination, but a place where people can see
21 some of the rebounding of transit and our
22 entire region encapsulated right there.
23 But we do have to look at what it
24 means to be a completely regional system.
463
1 And if that means looking at through-running,
2 we would probably be one of the last systems
3 that did that, but we need to.
4 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you. I
5 appreciate your overview.
6 I'm at the short view with the fact
7 that the federal government has put it in
8 Tier II of review. Our -- it seems our
9 United States Senator says he doesn't like
10 the plan.
11 Do you think that they can turn around
12 and stop fighting with each other and get
13 something done this year?
14 MS. DAGLIAN: Well, I think that -- I
15 don't want them to stop progress to make it a
16 workable, livable, viable station for the
17 commuters that need to use it. And not just
18 for now, but for Penn access also.
19 If there's a way to make that -- to
20 make it a better station and to use future
21 money to make it really the place it needs to
22 be to be a regional hub and a
23 through-running -- a through-running hub,
24 then I think it can be better. But I don't
464
1 know that it needs to be stopped.
2 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly? No?
4 I think we're good.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: That's it for
6 you folks. Thank you --
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
8 MS. DAGLIAN: Thank you.
9 MR. PACHOLCZAK: Thank you all.
10 MR. CARPENTER: Thank you.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: -- for being
12 here.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Now we move on
15 to Panel C: New York State Association of
16 County Clerks, Holly Tanner, Columbia County
17 Clerk and New York State Association of
18 County Clerks DMV Committee Chair; New York
19 State Highway Superintendents Association,
20 Kevin Rooney, president; New York State
21 Association of Town Superintendents of
22 Highways, David Miller, president; and
23 Rebuild New York Now, Fred Hiffa, technical
24 consultant.
465
1 So if you can go in that order. So I
2 guess, Holly, starting with you.
3 Just a reminder, it's three minutes.
4 And your testimony has been circulated to all
5 of the members over this weekend.
6 MS. TANNER: Good evening. My name
7 is Holly Tanner. I'm the Columbia County
8 Clerk and 20-year cochair of the DMV
9 Committee for NYSACC, the New York State
10 Association of County Clerks.
11 Thank you for this opportunity to
12 address this esteemed body on the important
13 issue of local DMV retention. As you may or
14 may not know, 51 county clerks across the
15 state serve as agents of the commissioner of
16 the New York State DMV, processing DMV
17 transactions the same as what happens in
18 state-run DMV offices.
19 Since 1998 the rate of retention to
20 local governments to provide this service to
21 our constituents has remained stagnant at
22 12.7 percent for most transactions. The
23 Clerks Association has been bringing this
24 issue to the forefront of our legislative
466
1 package for years. Many of us have met with
2 many of you to discuss this important issue.
3 Clerks pride themselves on providing
4 excellent customer service to our customers,
5 and we work closely with the New York State
6 DMV to provide this excellent service,
7 ensuring that the motoring public is safe on
8 the road and following applicable laws and
9 procedures, and we have happily been doing
10 this for New York State since the Legislature
11 first created the method for tracking and
12 licensing drivers, which was first done by
13 the Department of State.
14 State DMV was not created until 1962,
15 and county-clerk-run offices continue to
16 provide these much-needed services to
17 residents throughout the state, again
18 receiving a portion of the revenue generated
19 by said transactions.
20 Our value to New York State and the
21 public was never more evident than during the
22 pandemic shutdown several years ago. Being
23 separate elected officials, many of us were
24 able to provide services to constituents who
467
1 were in dire need of them. The Governor had
2 deemed that auto dealers were essential, and
3 who was there to process these transactions
4 and keep the state moving? County-clerk-run
5 DMV offices.
6 State DMV, specifically Commissioner
7 Mark Schroeder, has been a great champion for
8 us, recognizing that without county-clerk-run
9 DMV offices these DMV transactions would have
10 ground to a halt during this very difficult
11 time. The association wants to thank
12 Commissioner Schroeder and his team for
13 recognizing our value and sharing it with
14 state leadership.
15 We were very happy to note that
16 Governor Hochul in her budget address has
17 announced a plan to provide equity for
18 county-clerk-run DMV offices by putting
19 forward a plan, developed in partnership with
20 New York State DMV, of a flat rate across the
21 board, whether in office or online.
22 Online is another issue that has
23 impacted county-clerk-run DMV offices in the
24 digital age. Clerks have recognized and
468
1 supported the digitization of processes that
2 our offices provide. Many of us already
3 accept e-filing of court documents for years,
4 and also the e-recording of land records.
5 That DMV services moved online was
6 inevitable, and you heard the commissioner
7 earlier talk about e-licensing and that 75
8 transactions currently are available on-line.
9 And while clerks want to support these
10 initiatives, we often found ourselves at odds
11 with it, as it was keeping customers out of
12 our offices and lowering retention in a time
13 of ever-increasing costs to local governments
14 to keep local DMV offices open.
15 I guess I have to finish up, so I'm
16 going to say thank you very much. I'm
17 available for questions. We do support
18 Donate Life. And we're hoping that we can
19 move this transaction forward so that we can
20 be true partners with State DMV and keep our
21 doors open for those transactions that cannot
22 be done online.
23 Thank you so much.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
469
1 Kevin Rooney?
2 MR. MILLER: Excuse me. Yes, me and
3 Kevin are here in partnership, so I'm going
4 to start, if you don't mind. Thank you.
5 Good evening, Senator Krueger,
6 Assemblymember Weinstein, and other members
7 of the New York State Legislature. I am
8 David Miller, president of the New York State
9 Association of Town Superintendents of
10 Highways, and the highway superintendent for
11 the Town of Lockport in Niagara County.
12 With me, representing the New York
13 State County Superintendents, is their
14 president from Wayne County, Highway
15 Superintendent Kevin Rooney.
16 As always, we appreciate the annual
17 opportunity to discuss the Executive Budget
18 proposal and the needs of New York State's
19 local transportation system.
20 We'd like to begin by thanking you and
21 your colleagues for your steadfast support of
22 local roads, bridges and culverts. As you
23 know, our collective membership is
24 responsible for insuring the safe operation
470
1 of 87 percent of the state's public roads,
2 half of its bridges, and plowing not only our
3 huge system but over a quarter of the
4 New York State DOT's roads.
5 This massive system is owned by
6 1600 local governments and consists of over
7 97,000 center-line miles of roadways and
8 8600 highway bridges.
9 Every time there is a weather event,
10 major snow accumulation, freezing
11 temperatures or severe flooding, the
12 hard-working people of our local crews ensure
13 that New York's drivers get to and from work
14 and to their destinations safely.
15 Governor Hochul's Executive Budget
16 proposal continues the second year of a
17 $32.8 billion five-year investment plan for
18 the New York State Department of
19 Transportation and the local roads system.
20 This means we are held to $1.2 billion per
21 year to be distributed to all localities
22 throughout the state, including New York
23 City, to address the needs of our systems.
24 Despite our best efforts, this level
471
1 of funding for local road and bridge programs
2 is simply just not enough. Record-high
3 inflation rates on highway construction
4 materials has severely increased costs, and
5 as a result, local governments are seeing
6 almost a 25 percent reduction in the real
7 dollars from local highway maintenance
8 programs.
9 It is critical that an additional
10 $270 million be added to the '23-'24 budget
11 for local highway programs like CHIPS and
12 Extreme Winter Recovery just to keep the
13 funding at the same level as it was when the
14 five-year program was initially adopted in
15 2022.
16 According to a report issued by
17 New York State Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli
18 titled "Local Owned Roads by the Numbers,"
19 local government -- excluding New York
20 City -- spent $2 billion on road maintenance
21 and improvement in the 2020 fiscal year. The
22 report highlighted a 2013 study of local
23 highway and bridge needs published by our
24 association, based in part by the
472
1 transportation.
2 I'd like to now turn this over to
3 Kevin.
4 MR. ROONEY: Thank you.
5 Good evening to the chairs and to the
6 members of the Legislature.
7 I'd like to speak a little bit about
8 the BRIDGE NY program. We're very excited
9 that the BRIDGE NY program continues to be in
10 the Governor's budget. It's a great program.
11 And as you know, this signature program
12 directs state and federal funds to our local
13 bridge and culvert projects throughout the
14 state.
15 In all three of the previous rounds of
16 BRIDGE NY, the number and value of project
17 applications have exceeded the funding
18 available for each region of the state. In
19 2021, only about one in five bridge projects
20 were able to be funded, and one in eight
21 culvert projects got an award. Obviously it
22 shows that we need more money. We don't have
23 enough to cover these projects.
24 Periodic review of this program has
473
1 proven beneficial to us all. As a result of
2 this process, the New York State DOT is
3 implementing the BRIDGE NY program with the
4 existing capital program, rather than the
5 state-wide solicitation used in recent years.
6 We think this approach is going to give money
7 to the locals where we need it, where we know
8 we have the needs.
9 So what do we need now? The
10 Legislature has responded to the dire
11 conditions of the state's transportation
12 system and augmented the CHIPS and other
13 local programs. Funding shortages mean many
14 local governments' preventative pavement
15 preservation strategies to apply well-timed
16 and targeted maintenance treatments fall well
17 short of what is necessary to avoid more
18 costly major rehabilitation and
19 reconstruction projects down the road.
20 So based on this, we are asking for
21 the following. We'd like the support of
22 increasing the CHIPS program by 200 million
23 annually, to 738. We also ask that you
24 increase the Extreme Winter Recovery program
474
1 by 70 million, to 170 million. And we also
2 ask that you continue to support the other
3 programs, being the Marcheselli, BRIDGE NY,
4 PAVE-NY, the touring routes, and the pothole
5 program.
6 Both the town and county associations
7 also ask for your support in the worker
8 assault prevention program. That basically,
9 if there are assaults that occur out there on
10 any of our staff working daily, these
11 constitute an assault in the second degree.
12 This is important.
13 We also ask that the CHIPS bidding
14 threshold be increased from $350,000 to
15 $750,000. By increasing this CHIPS bidding
16 threshold, it will give municipalities more
17 flexibility to pursue the most cost-effective
18 option to bid out or perform the work
19 in-house if possible.
20 In conclusion, as fellow public
21 officials, we understand the difficulty in
22 trying to meet all the needs of our
23 constituents. We must work together so that
24 all the state and local critical
475
1 infrastructure needs are being addressed.
2 Thank you for your time and consideration.
3 MR. HIFFA: Good evening. My name is
4 Fred Hiffa. I'm with the ReBuild NY Now
5 Coalition, and I want to thank you for the
6 opportunity to discuss the second year of the
7 DOT's five-year capital program as proposed
8 in the Executive Budget.
9 As you look at the Executive's
10 proposed funding levels for the DOT five-year
11 plan, we should note DOT's road and bridge
12 system is massive. It has the 12th-most lane
13 miles of any state or territory in the
14 country, and the 13th-most bridges. The
15 condition of this massive system is troubling
16 at best.
17 Nationally, New York has the seventh
18 highest percentage of poor pavements on the
19 National Highway System: 87 percent of the
20 state roads are on the National Highway
21 System. And we have the sixth-most deficient
22 bridges by number in the country.
23 Our roads and bridge conditions are
24 currently some of the worst in the country,
476
1 and I can tell you, if the funding levels put
2 forth in the Executive's budget proposal for
3 DOT's capital plan were adopted at the
4 current levels, we will very well have, by
5 the end of this five-year plan, the worst
6 bridges and pavements in the country.
7 The Governor's budget ignores two
8 critical issues that are literally gutting
9 state and local governments' ability to
10 adequately maintain their transportation
11 infrastructure: inflation and underfunding
12 the priority signature projects.
13 Record high inflation rates on highway
14 construction materials has severely increased
15 costs and, as a result, reduced DOT's core
16 program to its lowest real spending levels
17 since 2015.
18 The other significant issue not
19 addressed in the Executive Budget is the
20 department will need an additional
21 $2.2 billion, potentially a 50 percent
22 increase, just to deliver the currently
23 programmed signature projects.
24 New York's roads and bridges have been
477
1 on a steady decline for many years. Over the
2 past 10 years, New York's paving cycle -- how
3 long it takes for the state to go around and
4 do all of its pavements -- has averaged
5 15.6 years. Unfortunately, the treatments
6 they use to maintain the roads only last
7 9.5 years. So the treatment lasts 10 years,
8 but they can't re-treat it for 15. That's
9 the problem.
10 NYSDOT staff do an outstanding job of
11 tracking the system's conditions and know the
12 level of funding necessary to maintain these
13 vital assets. Regrettably, there's currently
14 no correlation in the Executive Budget
15 between funding levels and system needs.
16 In December of '22, two months ago,
17 NYSDOT engineers released a report stating
18 that the department's estimated needs to
19 bring their state roads to a state of good
20 repair -- just 13 percent of the state
21 roads -- an extra $6.7 billion.
22 In closing, I ask you to look at the
23 true needs of the state's road system and
24 provide it with the necessary level of
478
1 funding to stop its deterioration. We look
2 forward to working with you in ensuring our
3 transportation systems are getting the funds
4 they need.
5 Again, on behalf of ReBuild NY Now's
6 membership, thank you very much for allowing
7 us to address these issues today.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
9 Assemblyman Norris.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN NORRIS: Thank you,
11 Madam Chair.
12 My questions are directed to
13 Superintendent Miller. I happen to know him
14 quite well; he is my superintendent, and he
15 makes sure all the roads in the Town of
16 Lockport are well-maintained.
17 We appreciate your leadership in
18 charge of the association of 932 towns, I
19 believe, as we appreciate that as well.
20 But can you explain to the panel --
21 because CHIPS funding is so important, we
22 understand that -- how directly does it
23 impact your municipality and other
24 municipalities for the reduction of how the
479
1 roads are being actually done?
2 MR. MILLER: Well, Mike, especially
3 when our costs are up 25 percent, it's more
4 important now than ever. As we know every
5 day, as we go to the store and everything
6 we're buying is really crazy high right now,
7 our dollars are not going as far. So we can
8 do about 25 percent less. As it is, we are
9 not keeping up.
10 I can speak for a lot of the small
11 towns. The only money in their budget that
12 they get to do their roads is the CHIPS
13 money. A lot -- you know, I'm fortunate, in
14 my town, that they kick in a little bit more
15 than we get from CHIPS. But I know for a
16 fact, just talking to my constituents, that
17 they only get what the CHIPS money is. That
18 makes it very tough to give up. A lot of
19 times they can only do oil and stone
20 treatments and stuff.
21 And it's important that we get this
22 funded because, as Fred had said, 15 years is
23 too long to let a surface go. We can't get
24 that many years out of it.
480
1 ASSEMBLYMAN NORRIS: And also, in
2 terms of culverts, correct -- it's a real
3 issue in the rural areas to making sure that
4 you replace our culverts and having the
5 funding available for that.
6 MR. MILLER: Absolutely. Culverts --
7 I had one in my town that we had to close
8 down, and we actually had to do a detour.
9 We have, right now, applications in
10 for BRIDGE NY. I've had it in for the last
11 round; I put in again for this round. And
12 the culverts, they're just deteriorating. A
13 lot of those concrete culverts don't stand up
14 to the salt. And it's just not taking --
15 they're not faring well with the years and
16 the conditions.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN NORRIS: Pretty good.
18 And then recently we just had a
19 blizzard up in Western New York, I know our
20 town was hit pretty hard, 24 to 36 hours
21 straight. How was the coordination with the
22 Department of Transportation? And what is
23 the budgetary impact on our local
24 municipalities in Western New York?
481
1 MR. MILLER: Well, the coordination
2 was great. Our emergency services
3 coordinator kept in contact with us, we kept
4 in contact with him. Just as a story, 22
5 straight hours my guys worked. We started at
6 5:00 in the morning on Christmas Eve, and
7 then we went until 3:00 in the morning
8 Christmas morning. These guys did a great
9 job, 22 straight hours. And I can tell you
10 that it is the first time I have ever had to
11 put two guys in a truck.
12 It's not only the cost of these events
13 when they happen, it's the cost afterwards.
14 The amount of, you know, the cleanup, the
15 hauling of snow, the damage, the curbs, the
16 signs -- these all go into these big events
17 that we get in Western New York.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN NORRIS: Thank you,
19 Superintendent.
20 MR. MILLER: Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Senator Tim Kennedy.
23 SENATOR KENNEDY: Thank you all. It's
24 good to see you. Thank you all for your
482
1 testimony.
2 I want to talk quickly about CHIPS.
3 Superintendents, I know that, you know, you
4 both made that a major part of your focus in
5 your testimony. You know, just a couple of
6 years ago we increased CHIPS funding by
7 23 percent, $100 million. It was the first
8 increase in nine years. It was a priority
9 for our Democratic conference, and we got it
10 done.
11 We also increased funding for the
12 Pave Our Potholes program, a new program by
13 the Governor, the PAVE-NY program -- we
14 increased everything. But what you're
15 telling us is it's not enough.
16 I support more, just so you know.
17 This $200 million I support, $70 million for
18 Extreme Winter Recovery I support. I think
19 we need to continue to invest.
20 What has the increase in funding that
21 you've already gotten demonstrated on the
22 ground? And what will a further increase, do
23 you believe -- what will you see?
24 MR. ROONEY: I'll take that.
483
1 Yeah, so we were excited to see that,
2 for one, the five-year plan. That's exciting
3 because we can plan for it. The increase was
4 also excellent, very exciting.
5 But then we had COVID, and we had cost
6 increases, so everything that was
7 steel-related went up in price. Everything
8 that was petroleum went up in price -- gas,
9 pipe, plastic pipe, rubber tires, all that
10 went up in price.
11 I did the same amount of lane miles in
12 work last year as I did the previous year,
13 before the increase. So that increase got
14 eaten right up.
15 So for us to continue to do -- I have
16 406 miles of road in my county that I'm
17 responsible for. In order to continue to do
18 50, roughly, miles of road a year, I need
19 more money.
20 SENATOR KENNEDY: Thank you.
21 And, Fred, thank you again for your
22 testimony, for your leadership, the work that
23 you do with my team. It's extremely
24 valuable, so we are grateful for your
484
1 leadership.
2 Can you talk to what the
3 superintendent just spoke to on CHIPS and how
4 that will relate to an increase in costs in
5 the five-year capital plan and why it's
6 important that we add to that?
7 MR. HIFFA: Sure.
8 I think one of the most important
9 things to do -- and I think Walter mentioned
10 it earlier -- is that, you know, DOT runs a
11 curve. And it basically shows you that as
12 the deterioration of the pavement gets worse,
13 the cost goes up.
14 So if you're doing a simple
15 maintenance on a proper timeframe of like a
16 five-year life of a pavement, that's going to
17 be two to three times -- literally it will be
18 16 times, if you let it go to a full death,
19 for the reconstruction that has to happen.
20 So it's just a smart way of doing it.
21 It's like the thing of repairing a few
22 shingles versus waiting till the entire roof
23 is gone. And so if we're able -- and that's
24 when we talk about having the DOT pavements
485
1 and the treatment lifes. By having it off by
2 four years, that significant deterioration
3 costs you a lot more money to go back and do
4 it, because you're not on a 12-and-12 cycle.
5 Which, when I was at DOT, we were on a
6 12-year cycle, 12-year treatment life.
7 SENATOR KENNEDY: All right. Thank
8 you all.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
11 Magnarelli.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: (Mic off.)
13 First of all, I'd just like to thank all of
14 you for being here, as always, and the long
15 way back.
16 Madam County Clerk, it's good to see
17 you again. And hopefully we can move this
18 thing along for you.
19 As far as CHIPS and all the other
20 areas that we have in the past increased, I
21 agree with Senator Kennedy. We've been
22 pushing for those increases, we will continue
23 to push for those increases going forward.
24 Just as a sidebar, are there any other
486
1 monies that can be used on these roads that
2 have come either from the federal government
3 or our counties to help with some of the
4 things that are going on now? There's an
5 awful lot of money going {inaudible} at this
6 point.
7 MR. HIFFA: I just want to make one
8 quick note. And, you know, with COVID relief
9 what we saw was, you know, healthcare
10 providers and hospitals got about $6 billion,
11 schools got 14, the MTA got 15. There was
12 literally prohibitive monies coming to
13 localities from us being able to use them on
14 infrastructure. And it wasn't until the
15 December bill that the feds passed that allow
16 us now to take some of that COVID money and
17 use it for the highway side.
18 So, you know, everyone's getting hit
19 with inflation, but there was at least some
20 offset of consideration of those expenses.
21 We never got that on the highway side.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: I'm asking
23 you, is there anything now, going forward.
24 MR. HIFFA: Well, I would say back to
487
1 that federal bill, you -- the way the
2 Comptroller, he keeps a spreadsheet on the
3 available amount of COVID money. And I
4 believe we've gotten 13.6 and, according to
5 his last look at it, it was like 5.3 had been
6 spent.
7 So there are monies potentially within
8 that category that now can be used for
9 highways based on the federal legislation
10 passed in December, Assemblyman.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: Right. Okay.
12 Thank you all for your testimony.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Michelle Hinchey.
15 Senator Michelle Hinchey.
16 SENATOR HINCHEY: Thank you very much.
17 And don't tell any of the previous panels,
18 but this might be my favorite, because I've
19 got Columbia County in the house --
20 (Laughter.)
21 SENATOR HINCHEY: -- we've got our
22 highway supervisors, who I love. So thank
23 you.
24 MR. MILLER: Your secret is safe with
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1 us.
2 (Laughter.)
3 SENATOR HINCHEY: Broadcast across the
4 internet.
5 First, thank you for being here. And
6 also I echo the thanks for holding out with
7 us here.
8 I too support the increase in CHIPS
9 funding and all the other road funding that
10 we have, and I want to thank Senator Kennedy
11 for his leadership and helping -- and yours
12 as well -- for helping us get that in the
13 budget and being a real champion for
14 increasing it more. Because I have seen
15 firsthand, in communities like mine --
16 56 towns, lots of roadways -- how important
17 the funding is.
18 I want to ask a little bit of a
19 different question as it pertains to highway
20 garages and equipment, because one of the
21 biggest requests that we get for help with
22 funding, my office gets, is help replacing
23 old equipment, because it's incredibly
24 expensive.
489
1 Can you talk a little bit about what
2 that looks like generally for your
3 associations, and that structure?
4 MR. MILLER: Sure.
5 Well, just a little bit here. The
6 Climate Action Council final scoping plan,
7 which will be moving forward over the next
8 several years, will impact our local
9 governments and requires significant changes
10 to our garages, our equipment, our vehicles,
11 and even the materials that we're allowed to
12 buy and maintain.
13 So these mandates will require
14 significant funding and additional financial
15 investments well beyond what our traditional
16 needs have been. So -- and those are going
17 to vary, depending on where in the state the
18 municipalities are, so --
19 SENATOR HINCHEY: Can you talk about,
20 if you were to buy new equipment for your
21 highway garage, what would be the cost from
22 what you're using now to buying brand-new?
23 MR. ROONEY: So I can tell you I
24 budgeted for a 10-wheel truck, and this is
490
1 not even with a plowing upfitted, so he'll be
2 surprised how cheap this was. This was
3 $200,000 that was in my budget for this year.
4 And after going through a state
5 contract and cutting some bells and whistles,
6 you know, I ended up paying $238,000. So
7 just that -- you know, that kind of shows the
8 magnitude of the increases that we're paying.
9 SENATOR HINCHEY: Thank you.
10 And as it pertains to the road funding
11 and CHIPS funding and others, can you talk
12 about how many projects typically are in a
13 queue to be done and, if there was more
14 funding, how many more of those you'd be able
15 to reach in a year?
16 MR. ROONEY: That's tough to -- tough
17 to kind of put a quantity -- you know, some
18 of my projects are very small projects.
19 Culvert replacements could be a $30,000
20 project. And then I will do some
21 reconstruction and some drainage improvements
22 that are $300,000-plus projects.
23 I do a lot in-house. I'm lucky to be
24 able to do that, because I have the
491
1 abilities, the staff, that are able to do
2 those, have been trained in that. Not
3 everybody has that.
4 SENATOR HINCHEY: Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
6 Assembly?
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman Ra.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
9 I'm just wondering if you can --
10 Mr. Hiffa, I think you talked about the
11 bidding threshold. And, you know, you've all
12 mentioned the impact inflation has had on
13 these projects and how much additional money
14 is needed to really pave those same miles of
15 roads that would have been with the lower
16 cost.
17 So can you elaborate, though, on what
18 impact the inflation has had on the bidding
19 threshold and how that impacts getting those
20 types of projects done? Because I would
21 assume that a project that was formerly below
22 that threshold is now well over it, with this
23 increase in costs.
24 MR. HIFFA: Yeah, it's -- the math is
492
1 real straightforward. And I think the thing
2 that is helpful, too, is the industry
3 supports it. This is not where, you know,
4 the municipalities and the industry that
5 supports us are on different pages. I think
6 everyone feels the same way. They know it's
7 a necessity.
8 It makes a lot of sense, and it's
9 something that we really need to think about
10 doing. You know, that's the low-hanging
11 fruit, let's put it that way, compared to the
12 other things that we're dealing with right
13 now as far as our limitations.
14 MR. ROONEY: And if I could add to
15 that, my own county has a small engineering
16 staff. We're are able to design some of our
17 own work, build our own work, inspect our own
18 work.
19 So that means I'm not putting bids
20 out, I'm not taking that time to do the
21 bidding threshold, having a set of plans
22 designed to put out -- you can just imagine
23 the cost savings that are available there.
24 Not everybody can do that, but some of the
493
1 larger municipalities can operate that way.
2 SENATOR RA: Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
5 Senator Oberacker.
6 SENATOR OBERACKER: First off, I want
7 to say thank you all. I swear, each and
8 every one of you is a magician to be able to
9 do what you do on the tight budgets that you
10 have.
11 I also would like to take a moment to
12 thank our chair for Transportation for his
13 work on this. And again I too, as a former
14 chair of public works for Otsego County and a
15 former town supervisor for the Town of
16 Maryland, fully understand the challenges
17 that you have.
18 A couple of quick things. One of the
19 areas I think that we really do overlook is
20 maintenance, and the ability to go in and
21 have ditching programs and to cut the
22 canopies back and those type of things that
23 would help with the overall condition of our
24 roads moving forward. It's not just simply
494
1 paving, it's getting a return on our
2 investment as we pave. And I'm sure you
3 understand that.
4 Otsego County has 477 center-lane
5 miles that we would -- which, if you're
6 familiar with that, you double that to get
7 your lane miles. And we would approximately
8 try to pave 50 miles a year.
9 So is there some things that we're
10 missing on the maintenance side? Is there
11 things that maybe -- I think you heard me
12 earlier say instead of using the words
13 "Extreme Winter Recovery" I'd like to change
14 it to "Extreme Weather Recovery" and maybe
15 look at some funding that would be
16 specifically noted or specifically designed
17 for maintenance for ditching purposes and
18 things of that nature.
19 Am I off the mark on that? Or is that
20 something down the road that we could have
21 maybe a further discussion on, if there's
22 true value in that part of it?
23 MR. ROONEY: Yeah, I'll take that.
24 I don't believe that ditching is an
495
1 operation that would be CHIPS-eligible.
2 SENATOR OBERACKER: It's not.
3 MR. ROONEY: It's not. So --
4 SENATOR OBERACKER: Right.
5 MR. ROONEY: But ditching as a linear
6 project, if you're going to put it together
7 with a project, you ditch the first year, you
8 change your culvert pipes, and then you do
9 your roadwork. So it can be lumped together
10 as a project, and that's what we do in our
11 county.
12 Believe me, I'm not far Western
13 New York, so I'm not dealing with snow, and
14 this year we've been able to do a lot of
15 ditching in the winter months this year,
16 which we usually don't have the opportunity
17 to do.
18 But yeah, ditching is super-important
19 to be able to try to get your roads to drain,
20 and then they'll stay longer.
21 MR. MILLER: If you don't mind, I'd
22 like to add to that. You know, we have a
23 motto in our business, which is to "keep your
24 good roads good." And that reason being is
496
1 you try to pave a road and a few years later
2 it might need a chip sealer or a light coat,
3 but you try to keep your good roads good to
4 make them last as long as you can.
5 What would be great in the future
6 would be some funding for all the
7 rehabilitation, and you take your bad roads,
8 recycle them, redo them, now make them your
9 good roads. And then you spend the next 10,
10 15 years keeping that good road good.
11 So, you know, we have a policy and a
12 way we do it. But you're right. And some
13 funding for total rehabilitation of roads
14 would be great.
15 SENATOR OBERACKER: Thank you. I
16 appreciate that.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
18 Any other Senators? No?
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you for
20 being here and speaking as well as submitting
21 your written testimony. Thanks.
22 So we're going to move on to our final
23 panel.
24 SENATOR OBERACKER: Thank you very
497
1 much. I appreciate it.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you,
3 everyone.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Our final
5 panel: Empire State Passengers Association,
6 Steve Strauss, executive director; New York
7 Aviation Managers Association, Gregory
8 Topping, president; and Railroads of
9 New York, Scott Wigger, executive director.
10 So if you can go in that order, that
11 would be helpful. Are we ready?
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We're ready.
13 MR. STRAUSS: Chairs Krueger,
14 Weinstein, Magnarelli, and Kennedy, ranking
15 Minority members, my own State Senator,
16 Senator Comrie, and the general members of
17 the Transportation, Finance, and Ways and
18 Means Committees, thank you all for staying
19 this late to hear about railroads.
20 My name is Steve Strauss, and I am the
21 executive director of the Empire State
22 Passengers Association, a statewide intercity
23 passenger rail advocacy organization with
24 parallel interests in the downstate commuter
498
1 rail systems and local transit across the
2 state.
3 In addition to the written testimony
4 that ESPA has submitted, I would like to
5 focus this evening on four key points on how
6 you can help bring higher-speed passenger
7 rail to the Empire Corridor and improve
8 Amtrak service throughout the state.
9 First, for those of you who are new
10 members of the Legislature this year, or new
11 members of these committees, the most
12 important thing that you can take away from
13 today's hearing is that under federal law
14 passed in 2009, New York State, or states in
15 general, pay for all Amtrak service that is
16 shorter than 750 miles in length. That means
17 that all Amtrak service in New York State is
18 paid for by the State of New York taxpayers
19 after you subtract fare revenue -- except for
20 the Lake Shore train that runs from New York
21 City to Chicago. That's a long-distance
22 train, and it is paid for by the federal
23 government.
24 Like the MTA, the Governor and the
499
1 State Legislature, subject to negotiation
2 with Amtrak, largely control the quantity,
3 speed, and reliability of passenger train
4 service here.
5 We don't particularly need more money
6 right now. That may be hard to believe, but
7 we think it's true: We need leadership and
8 vision to create a strong state rail program.
9 Second, all of the federal
10 infrastructure money appropriated for
11 intercity passenger rail improvements in the
12 IIJA is discretionary. The rail program is
13 different from the highway and transit
14 programs, which have formula money. New York
15 State must develop projects, write grant
16 applications, and compete against other
17 states for this money.
18 In December the state submitted a
19 large number of applications for projects,
20 and ESPA thanks them for this aggressive
21 action. But the pipeline of projects beyond
22 this we believe to be quite thin. The
23 competition in other states is better
24 staffed, and they have more projects ready to
500
1 go.
2 Third, the long-delayed Empire
3 Corridor EIS is going to be released very
4 soon. There will be a preferred alternative,
5 probably 90 miles per hour with some
6 110-mile-per-hour segments. This will set
7 off a public discussion process of how the
8 state wants to implement the EIS, and we hope
9 that the Legislature will be very involved in
10 that as well.
11 And then finally -- excuse me --
12 lastly we ask you to ask Governor Hochul and
13 Commissioner Dominguez for a multiyear
14 capital plan for intercity passenger rail.
15 Just like the transit program and the highway
16 program, we need a public multiyear plan.
17 I could go on, but I know you have
18 time limits. Thank you very much for the
19 opportunity to speak today. I would be happy
20 to answer any questions that members may
21 have.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
24 Gregory?
501
1 MR. TOPPING: Good evening,
2 Senator Krueger and Assemblymember Weinstein
3 and members of the committee. I'm
4 Greg Topping, president of the New York
5 Aviation Management Association. I would
6 like to express my appreciation for the
7 opportunity to provide comments on the
8 Executive Budget as it relates to airports
9 and the aviation industry in New York.
10 NYAMA represents over 13,000 members
11 and affiliate members comprised of commercial
12 service and general aviation airports and
13 various aviation industry professionals who
14 believe that the economic development efforts
15 at the state and regional level necessitate
16 strong public investment in our aviation
17 assets and facilities.
18 New York airports are beginning to
19 recover economically from the post-pandemic
20 world of travel, but we have a long way to
21 go. NYAMA commends Governor Hochul for
22 recognizing the unique capital needs of
23 airports. State-supported investment drives
24 new economic development, creating
502
1 high-quality and sustainable jobs as well as
2 attracting greater private-sector investment.
3 The '22-'23 capital program included a
4 high state level of funding for airport
5 projects through a $250 million program that
6 transformed upstate New York airports and
7 fostered regional economic development.
8 These investments are helping New York State
9 reestablish itself as a place for national
10 and international aviation businesses to
11 locate and grow.
12 While these signature projects
13 primarily take place in the larger commercial
14 service airports throughout the state,
15 smaller and medium-sized airports that
16 provide vital access points for business and
17 tourism opportunities and communities from
18 Long Island to Western New York are also in
19 need of funding to carry out their important
20 mission as part of the national air service
21 system.
22 Airport capital funding is provided
23 through two programs: The Airport
24 Improvement Program, which delivers a portion
503
1 of the local share required to match federal
2 AIP grants, funded in the Executive Budget at
3 $14 million; and the Aviation Capital Grant
4 program that, unlike the AIP money, can be
5 used to finance revenue-producing projects at
6 airports such as parking lots, fuel farms,
7 hangar construction, and concessions and
8 development.
9 Unfortunately this program continues
10 to be grossly underfunded at $12.5 million
11 per year. NYAMA calculates that the capital
12 needs of airports that are eligible for state
13 assistance require a commitment of
14 $40 million to the Aviation Capital Grant
15 program. We also look for an increase in the
16 the maximum grant size in the capital funding
17 from 2.5 to 5 million.
18 Thank you for giving me the time to
19 speak.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
21 Scott?
22 MR. WIGGER: Yeah, good evening. And
23 thank you to the chairs and members for the
24 opportunity to speak here today.
504
1 My name is Scott Wigger. I'm the
2 executive director for Railroads of New York,
3 and I represent the freight rail industry in
4 New York State, which is comprised of four
5 Class I railroads and 36 short-line regional
6 railroads employing approximately 2600 people
7 in New York State alone.
8 In 2019 we enacted the CLCPA law. It
9 was an ambitious environmental initiative
10 meant to cut emissions across all sectors of
11 the economy, including transportation.
12 According to the USEPA, the transportation
13 sector counts for approximately 27 percent of
14 total US greenhouse gas emissions.
15 In order to help achieve these
16 statewide emissions reduction goals as
17 outlined in the CLCPA law, shifting long-haul
18 freight movement from trucks to rail will
19 significantly contribute to reducing
20 emissions in the transportation sector.
21 When it comes to the transportation
22 sector, emissions are directly related to
23 fuel consumption. According to the
24 Association of American Railroads, moving
505
1 freight by rail instead of truck reduces
2 greenhouse gas emissions by approximately
3 75 percent.
4 Railroads on average are approximately
5 four times more fuel-efficient than trucks
6 and can move one ton of freight more than
7 480 miles on one gallon of diesel fuel, and a
8 single freight train can replace several
9 hundred trucks on the road.
10 Many investments in the freight rail
11 industry are devoted to implementing new
12 technologies that make freight rail transport
13 safer, more fuel efficient, and more
14 environmentally friendly.
15 According to the AAR, in 2020 U.S.
16 freight railroads consumed 675 million fewer
17 gallons of fuel and emitted 7.8 million fewer
18 tons of carbon dioxide than they would have
19 if their fuel efficiency had remained
20 constant just since 2000.
21 Included in the Governor's Executive
22 Budget proposal is approximately 35.5 million
23 for freight rail infrastructure projects and
24 a separate $10 million allocation for a mix
506
1 of freight rail, passenger rail, and port
2 railyard projects. In addition, also
3 included in the proposal is a $100 million
4 allocation for a local bridge and highway
5 improvement fund that includes
6 highway-railroad crossing projects as
7 eligible.
8 On behalf of RONY and its members, I
9 wish to express our support for this funding,
10 which many of our rail companies rely on to
11 maintain the state's rail network in a state
12 of good repair and to remain economically
13 viable in an increasingly competitive
14 freight-based economy.
15 Thank you, and I'd be glad to answer
16 any questions.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
18 And we go to Assemblyman Magnarelli.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: First of all,
20 I just want to say thank you for waiting all
21 this time and testifying in front of this
22 budget committee. I do appreciate the
23 information. We have all talked in the past
24 on different things.
507
1 I just have one question for
2 Mr. Wigger. I heard -- and it's just
3 something that came up at a meeting -- that
4 there were CSX sidings that were being
5 dismantled. And those sidings are used so
6 that, you know, if something goes wrong with
7 a freight train or a passenger train, other
8 trains can still go by. You know, the main
9 line.
10 Have you got any information on that?
11 And if you want, we can talk later or some
12 other time. But that's very troubling to me
13 at this point in time.
14 MR. WIGGER: I don't have any
15 information specific to that. I defer to CSX
16 on that.
17 But I do understand that the route
18 that goes through Albany all the way up to
19 Syracuse and Buffalo --
20 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: That's the
21 one I take, right.
22 MR. WIGGER: The passenger rail
23 on-time performance has been very, very good
24 in recent years. Their metrics have been --
508
1 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: It's been
2 good, but I'm always looking for ways of
3 making it better. And, you know, anything
4 that causes a major delay is what I think is
5 really hurting passenger rail from the
6 standpoint that people won't take it because
7 they can't depend on it leaving and arriving
8 at certain points in time that are on the
9 schedule. That, I think, is the most
10 important thing.
11 Whether we can get the trains to go
12 60, 70, 80, 90 miles per hour I think all
13 depends on what we do to the infrastructure
14 that is there, and making sure we don't get
15 rid of infrastructure that could help. I
16 would just like some kind of an explanation
17 on that.
18 I saw your hand go up.
19 MR. STRAUSS: Yes, sir, Assemblymember
20 Magnarelli.
21 It is ESPA's understanding that CSX
22 has taken out of service some sidings,
23 passing sidings on the Empire Corridor. One
24 of the issues that affects this decision is
509
1 that the freight railroads are running longer
2 freight trains these days and in some cases
3 the existing sidings may not be long enough
4 to fit a freight train in the siding anymore
5 because the trains are now longer than the
6 siding.
7 But it's still -- the sidings have
8 value because you can store maintenance-of-
9 way equipment for the railroads there. If a
10 passenger train breaks down, you can put the
11 passenger train in the siding and the freight
12 trains continue to pass.
13 So it's ESPA's position that these
14 sidings are valuable and that they should
15 remain in service.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGNARELLI: I appreciate
17 that. Thank you.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Kennedy.
20 SENATOR KENNEDY: Yes, I just want to
21 say thank you to each of you. We've worked
22 together respectively in your various roles,
23 and each one of you has been extremely
24 professional and helpful in my office's
510
1 ability to move a number of different
2 initiatives forward.
3 So you are constantly communicating
4 with me and my team, and I just want to say
5 thank you again. Chairman Magnarelli
6 mentioned your patience here today. It has
7 been an almost nine-hour -- actually, a
8 nine-and-a-half-hour event today in this
9 hearing.
10 They tried to kick us out about four
11 hours ago. They turned the lights out on us.
12 We didn't relent.
13 But in all sincerity, you all play
14 pivotal roles in the transportation network
15 in this state. Commercial rail, passenger
16 rail, and aviation -- we are investing in all
17 of the above. I look forward to our
18 continued work together. So thank you.
19 MR. STRAUSS: Thank you.
20 MR. WIGGER: Thank you.
21 MR. TOPPING: Thank you.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
23 Senator Hinchey.
24 SENATOR HINCHEY: Great, thank you so
511
1 much. I also echo my colleague's sentiments,
2 so thanks for hanging on with us here.
3 My question is for Mr. Wigger, but
4 open for anybody who can answer. We have CSX
5 that runs through -- I have now the luxury of
6 representing both sides of the Hudson, so I
7 picked up new passenger rail. But I have --
8 I'm continuing to represent our freight rail,
9 and I have seen the pretty dilapidated rail
10 lines that CSX runs on, especially along the
11 Hudson. And so my question, I guess, to you
12 is -- freight rail inspectors. Do we have
13 enough of them? Do we need more? Is that a
14 funding thing that we need more support from
15 the state?
16 How can we help -- how can we help
17 your members, right, and how can we help CSX
18 do the right thing but also hold them
19 accountable to make sure that the important
20 and often questionable things that they're
21 carrying within those cars -- "questionable"
22 meaning we don't know what they are -- right
23 along the Hudson we're working so hard to
24 clean up -- God forbid something happens.
512
1 But again, I've seen firsthand kind of
2 the state that much of this rail line is in.
3 So can you talk a little bit about what that
4 looks like and what we need?
5 MR. WIGGER: Sure, I'd be glad to.
6 As far as the inspectors, I know, you
7 know, we've got state inspectors -- and also
8 the FRA also has their inspectors too. And,
9 you know, just anecdotally what I hear from
10 my members is they're always out there.
11 They're always looking at tracks and their
12 yards, and you know --
13 SENATOR HINCHEY: We hear something
14 very differently.
15 MR. WIGGER: Okay.
16 (Laughter.)
17 MR. WIGGER: I'm sure.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
513
1 But, you know, safety is the
2 number-one priority for the whole industry.
3 And that's, you know, what they focus on.
4 As far as, you know, the
5 infrastructure, you know, it always comes
6 down to dollars, you know, putting money into
7 the ground. And we have a freight rail
8 program here in the state that we've really
9 been able to boost up over the past 10 years
10 or so. It was after the 2005 bond act money
11 ran out. It was zeroed out, so we had --
12 there was no money.
13 We've been -- gradually been able to
14 build this up. It's more for like kind of
15 the smaller railroads and everything. Like
16 when you talk about CSX, their products are
17 just so much bigger in scale, you know. So
18 this program that we have for the state
19 really can only take it so far.
20 SENATOR HINCHEY: So the answer --
21 what I'm hearing is no, we don't really have
22 a funding mechanism to help.
23 But also, I don't have the numbers in
24 front of me. I wish I did. We'll follow up
514
1 separately. I know that the numbers for
2 state inspectors is very low. And what we've
3 actually been told is they do not have the
4 capacity or the time to be able to look at
5 much of the freight rail.
6 And the same with federal. They're
7 looking at -- across the nation, right, and
8 they're not actually in our backyard. I know
9 it because I've seen the lines effectively
10 held together with duct tape and wood along
11 the Hudson.
12 So it's something maybe we can work on
13 together to actually get some changes and
14 safety brought to the rail line along the
15 Hudson River.
16 MR. WIGGER: Be glad to follow up with
17 you, absolutely.
18 SENATOR HINCHEY: Thank you.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
20 Thank you for being here today with us.
21 This concludes the Joint Budget
22 Transportation Hearing. Tomorrow the
23 committees will reconvene at 9:30 a.m. for
24 the Public Protection Hearing.
515
1 Thank you all for your participation
2 today.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
4 much.
5 MR. WIGGER: Thank you.
6 MR. STRAUSS: Thank you.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you for
8 waiting so long for us.
9 (Whereupon, the budget hearing
10 concluded at 8:03 p.m.)
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