1
1 BEFORE THE NEW YORK STATE SENATE FINANCE
AND ASSEMBLY WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEES
2 ----------------------------------------------------
3 JOINT LEGISLATIVE HEARING
4 In the Matter of the
2024-2025 EXECUTIVE BUDGET ON
5 HIGHER EDUCATION
6 ----------------------------------------------------
7 Hearing Room B
Legislative Office Building
8 Albany, New York
9 February 8, 2024
9:39 a.m.
10
11 PRESIDING:
12 Senator Liz Krueger
Chair, Senate Finance Committee
13
Assemblywoman Helene Weinstein
14 Chair, Assembly Ways & Means Committee
15 PRESENT:
16 Assemblyman Edward P. Ra
Assembly Ways & Means Committee (RM)
17
Senator Thomas F. O'Mara
18 Senate Finance Committee (RM)
19 Assemblywoman Patricia Fahy
Chair, Assembly Higher Education Committee
20
Senator Toby Stavisky
21 Chair, Senate Higher Education Committee
22 Senator John C. Liu
23 Assemblyman Robert Smullen
24 Senator Gustavo Rivera
2
1 2024-2025 Executive Budget
Higher Education
2 2-8-24
3 PRESENT: (Continued)
4 Assemblywoman Jo Anne Simon
5 Assemblywoman Alicia Hyndman
6 Assemblyman Harvey Epstein
7 Senator Robert Jackson
8 Senator Lea Webb
9 Assemblywoman Monique Chandler-Waterman
10 Assemblywoman Monica P. Wallace
11 Senator Dean Murray
12 Assemblywoman Phara Souffrant Forrest
13 Senator Iwen Chu
14 Assemblyman Scott Gray
15 Assemblywoman Monica P. Wallace
16 Senator Peter Oberacker
17 Assemblyman Erik M. Dilan
18 Assemblywoman Chris Eachus
19 Assemblywoman Karen McMahon
20 Assemblywoman Sarah Clark
21 Assemblyman Ed Flood
22
23
24
3
1 2024-2025 Executive Budget
Higher Education
2 2-8-24
3
4 LIST OF SPEAKERS
5 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
6 Dr. John B. King, Jr.
Chancellor
7 State University of New York
-and-
8 Félix V. Matos Rodríguez
Chancellor
9 City University of New York 10 29
10 Dr. Guillermo Linares
President
11 NYS Higher Education
Services Corporation
12 (HESC) 159 168
13 Dr. James Davis
President
14 Professional Staff Congress/CUNY
-and-
15 Dr. Frederick E. Kowal
President
16 United University Professions
-and-
17 Allen Williams
President
18 New York Community College
Trustees
19 -and-
Andrew Sako
20 President
Faculty Federation
21 of Erie Community College 209 221
22
23
24
4
1 2024-2025 Executive Budget
Higher Education
2 2-8-24
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont.
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 James McCartney
Director
6 NYS University Police Lieutenants
Benevolent Association
7 President
PBA of New York State
8 -and-
Bradley Hershenson
9 Business Agent
CWA 1104-Graduate Student
10 Employees Union (GSEU)
-and-
11 Donna Stelling-Gurnett
President
12 Association of Private
Colleges (APC)
13 -and-
Jennifer Tassler
14 VP for Government Relations and
Strategic Affairs
15 New York State Academic Dental
Centers (NYSADC)
16 -and-
Lola W. Brabham
17 President
Commission on Independent
18 Colleges and Universities
(CICU) 273 290
19
20
21
22
23
24
5
1 2024-2025 Executive Budget
Higher Education
2 2-8-24
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont.
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Arturo Soto
Secretary
6 CUNY Coalition for Students
with Disabilities (CCSD)
7 -and-
Blair Horner
8 Executive Director
New York Public Interest
9 Research Group (NYPIRG)
-and-
10 Deidra Nesbeth
Director
11 Fostering Youth Success Alliance
-and-
12 Alexandra Sisti
Founding Member
13 District 1 Youth Advisory Board
-and-
14 Dr. Marcy Ferdschneider
Assistant Vice President,
15 Student Health on Haven
Columbia University
16 -and-
Samuel Rowser
17 Executive Director
On Point for College 325 346
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
6
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Welcome. This
2 is the budget hearing on Higher Education.
3 Good morning. I am Helene Weinstein,
4 chair of the New York State Assembly's Ways
5 and Means Committee and cochair of today's
6 hearing.
7 Today we begin the 10th in a series of
8 hearings conducted by the joint fiscal
9 committees of the Legislature regarding the
10 Governor's proposed budget for fiscal year
11 2024-'25. And the hearings are conducted
12 pursuant to the New York State Constitution
13 and the Legislative Law.
14 Today the Assembly Ways and Means
15 Committee and the Senate Finance Committee
16 will hear testimony concerning the Governor's
17 proposed budget for higher education.
18 I'll introduce the members from the
19 Assembly. After that my cochair,
20 Senator Krueger, will introduce the members
21 from the Senate, and then our ranking members
22 will introduce the members of their
23 conference.
24 So, so far from the Assembly we have
7
1 Assemblywoman Fahy, who is the chair of our
2 Higher Ed Committee. We have Assemblymember
3 Chandler-Waterman, Assemblymember Clark,
4 Assemblymember Dilan, Assemblymember Eachus,
5 Assemblymember Epstein. And I am sure there
6 will be some other members who will be
7 joining us.
8 Senator Krueger, if you'd like to
9 introduce your colleagues.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
11 much.
12 We've been joined by Higher Ed Chair
13 Toby Stavisky, John Liu, Lea Webb, Robert
14 Jackson, Iwen Chu, Gustavo Rivera.
15 And my Republican ranker, Tom O'Mara,
16 is going to update us with his members.
17 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you,
18 Chairwoman.
19 On our side we're joined by
20 Senator Peter Oberacker this morning.
21 Good morning.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Good morning.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman Ra,
24 our ranker on Ways and Means, will introduce
8
1 his colleagues.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
3 Good morning. We're joined by
4 Assemblymember Smullen, our ranking member on
5 the Higher Education Committee, as well as
6 Assemblymembers Gray and Flood.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
8 So just a little bit of the ground
9 rules for today. The time limits: The
10 governmental witnesses will have 10 minutes
11 to present their testimony. The
12 nongovernmental witnesses who are on the
13 schedule will have three minutes to present
14 their testimony.
15 And we just encourage everyone to not
16 read their testimony, because sometimes
17 that -- particularly the nongovernmental
18 witnesses, that three minutes comes right
19 after you've said hello, given us greetings.
20 Just get to the substance of what you'd like
21 us to hear.
22 As for the legislators, the chairs of
23 the committees, the two Higher Ed chairs,
24 today will each have 10 minutes and a second
9
1 round of three minutes if desired. And
2 again, the time frame is for both the
3 question and please leave time for the
4 witnesses to answer.
5 Ranking members of the two committees
6 will get five minutes each to ask questions
7 and hear the answers. And all other members
8 of the relevant -- of the Higher Ed Committee
9 or Ways and Means will have three minutes
10 each.
11 And just to the legislators, please
12 let us know as soon as possible if you want
13 to be on the list to ask a question. And if
14 you text me or Senator Krueger and we don't
15 respond, don't assume you're on the list. We
16 had some issues yesterday.
17 I would also just ask people to note
18 we have time clocks all over the hearing
19 room. And as I mentioned, that they are both
20 for the question and the answer.
21 And I'm delighted now to call upon the
22 first two witnesses. First, John King,
23 chancellor of the State University of
24 New York. Last year you were interim
10
1 chancellor, so we're happy that you're here
2 in your official position as chancellor.
3 And after Chancellor King speaks, we
4 have the chancellor of the City University of
5 New York, Félix Matos Rodríguez.
6 So we would ask, Chancellor King, if
7 you could start. We'll then go to
8 Chancellor Rodríguez, and then we will have
9 I'm sure questions from the panel.
10 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Good morning,
11 Chairs Krueger, Weinstein, Stavisky and Fahy
12 and Ranking Members O'Mara, Ra and Smullen.
13 Appreciate the opportunity to join you today
14 alongside my friend and colleague Chancellor
15 Matos Rodríguez.
16 There are no greater testaments to the
17 power of public higher education than SUNY
18 and CUNY, and we owe an incredible debt of
19 gratitude to the Senators and Assemblymembers
20 in this room, to your colleagues, and to
21 Governor Kathy Hochul.
22 Since returning to New York to assume
23 this role just over a year ago, I've
24 prioritized visiting each of our 64 campuses,
11
1 and I'm grateful to many of you for joining
2 those visits. I come before you today filled
3 with tremendous pride in our system and, most
4 importantly, in the students we are
5 privileged to serve, and the faculty and
6 staff making extraordinary life-changing
7 contributions on our campuses every day.
8 SUNY is on the move, with remarkable
9 progress on multiple fronts. We are making
10 it clear that there is a place at SUNY for
11 every New Yorker. SUNY campuses are climbing
12 in national rankings and, even more
13 importantly, being recognized as powerhouses
14 of social mobility. And SUNY continues to
15 sit at the heart of New York State's strategy
16 for economic development with our education
17 and training programs and cutting-edge
18 research boosting diverse areas of emerging
19 commerce.
20 For the first time in a decade, SUNY
21 enrollment is up, and it is up across every
22 sector of our system. While the overall
23 enrollment gain from fall '22 to fall '23 was
24 1.1 percent, we saw a much larger 4.3 percent
12
1 increase in first-time undergraduate
2 enrollment, a leading indicator of future
3 growth.
4 Our gains in enrollment fuel and are
5 in turn fueled by the four pillars the SUNY
6 Board of Trustees and I have established:
7 Student success, research and scholarship,
8 diversity, equity and inclusion, and economic
9 development and upward mobility. SUNY is
10 committed to leading the nation in access and
11 degree completion. College affordability is
12 a vital component of student success, and I'm
13 proud of our extraordinary value, with
14 52 percent of in-state undergraduates
15 attending SUNY tuition-free.
16 SUNY is making strides toward meeting
17 Governor Hochul's charge to double research.
18 We are laying the groundwork to establish
19 New York's leadership in AI, biotech,
20 semiconductor packaging and sustainability
21 and renewable energy, among so many other
22 areas.
23 While some states seek to turn back
24 the clock on diversity, SUNY and New York are
13
1 committed to doing even more. We are
2 strengthening recruitment pipelines for all
3 students from all backgrounds, and diverse
4 faculty and campus leadership.
5 In the wake of Hamas's horrific
6 terrorist attack on Israel on October 7th, I
7 also want to emphasize that SUNY is standing
8 up to racism, xenophobia, antisemitism,
9 Islamophobia, and other forms of hate. As
10 always, the safety of our students, faculty
11 and staff is paramount. I'd be happy to
12 answer questions about the steps we are
13 taking.
14 And SUNY is proudly working with
15 government and employer partners to make
16 targeted investments in workforce development
17 in high-demand sectors and expanding
18 internship opportunities across SUNY, with
19 the goal to ultimately reach every SUNY
20 student.
21 I also want to note SUNY's commitment
22 to excellence in operational and fiscal
23 stewardship, including the difficult
24 decisions necessary to ensure fiscal health.
14
1 Let me now turn to the ways in which
2 SUNY students, faculty, staff and the broader
3 SUNY community are benefiting from the
4 investments made by the Executive and
5 Legislature in last year's budget, which
6 provided the largest operating aid increase
7 for SUNY in more than 20 years.
8 The '23-'24 enacted budget included
9 $163 million in increased direct state
10 support for our state-operated campuses, with
11 commitments in the State Financial Plan of an
12 additional $54 million in each of the next
13 two fiscal years. We remain incredibly
14 grateful for these resources.
15 SUNY prioritized ensuring that all
16 state-operated campuses received a
17 significant funding increase, since every
18 campus has both needs and growth
19 opportunities. We dedicated approximately
20 $40 million to recurring annual state
21 investment in student mental health, services
22 for students with disabilities, addressing
23 food insecurity, paid internships, and
24 expanding research opportunities.
15
1 Support from the Legislature also
2 provided $3 million towards eliminating fees
3 charged to graduate students who work on
4 campus.
5 In addition, the enacted budget
6 maintained the 100 percent community college
7 funding floor, preserving $79 million in
8 state support that would have otherwise been
9 lost.
10 And the $75 million SUNY
11 Transformation Fund is already making an
12 extraordinary difference. Most notably,
13 25 campuses are adopting ASAP and ACE, the
14 nation's leading models for increasing
15 student completion. These initiatives were
16 pioneered at CUNY and proven through
17 randomized controlled trials.
18 Finally, we're grateful for the
19 continued investment in SUNY's capital needs.
20 This includes approximately $1.6 billion in
21 the '23-'24 budget, which also recognized the
22 importance of debt service relief for our
23 hospitals.
24 These investments in SUNY pay off.
16
1 For every dollar of state funding invested in
2 SUNY, the state enjoys nearly $9 in economic
3 return.
4 Let me now turn to Governor Hochul's
5 '24-'25 Executive Budget, which makes crucial
6 investments in SUNY's future. Among the many
7 highlights are increased and ongoing
8 operating support for all SUNY campuses. The
9 Executive Budget fulfills the state's
10 commitment to an additional $54 million
11 increase in operating funds for
12 state-operated campuses. In addition, the
13 Executive Budget maintains the 100 percent
14 community college funding floor, avoiding
15 $85 million in lost direct state tax support.
16 Capital investment. The Executive
17 Budget invests 650 million to address SUNY's
18 capital needs, including critical maintenance
19 and new capital investment.
20 Empire AI. Governor Hochul's
21 Empire AI initiative will position New York
22 as a national leader in AI research and
23 economic development. Our four university
24 centers will harness the power of AI to
17
1 expand research through this consortium, and
2 we are especially grateful that UB has been
3 selected as the host site.
4 A stronger SUNY Downstate. Downstate
5 Health Sciences University is a gem of the
6 SUNY system. However, Downstate's main
7 hospital building has weathered years of
8 financial instability and fallen into
9 disrepair. As part of a plan for a stronger
10 Downstate, I'm deeply grateful for the
11 Governor's willingness to make a $300 million
12 capital investment at SUNY Downstate to cover
13 the hospital's substantial deficits during
14 the transition and to provide more modest
15 operating support going forward.
16 We are working with the community to
17 pursue a path that will advance the future of
18 Downstate's unique role in preparing
19 excellent, diverse healthcare professionals;
20 preserve inpatient services to be performed
21 by SUNY Downstate staff in partnership with
22 other hospitals; sustain and expand
23 outpatient services to fill healthcare gaps;
24 and address the significant health
18
1 disparities facing New Yorkers.
2 Universal FAFSA completion. New
3 Yorkers leave $200 million per year in
4 federal financial aid on the table by not
5 completing the FAFSA. And state after state
6 has shown that making the FAFSA universal
7 expands college access. Governor Hochul's
8 plan envisions every high school senior
9 either completing the FAFSA, the New York
10 State DREAM Act application, or signing a
11 waiver passing on the opportunity to apply.
12 All students will still be able to graduate.
13 SUNY Service Corps. The Executive
14 Budget provides $2.75 million for SUNY to
15 launch the Empire State Service Corps, in
16 partnership with Lieutenant Governor Delgado.
17 This program, modeled after a similar effort
18 in California, will allow hundreds of SUNY
19 students to engage with local community-based
20 organizations and deepen their learning in
21 the process.
22 SUNY is appreciative for such a strong
23 and forward-looking Executive Budget.
24 Thank you again for your steadfast
19
1 support for SUNY, your commitment to public
2 higher education, and the opportunity to join
3 you today. I look forward to working
4 together toward the '24-'25 enacted budget
5 and to invest in the future of SUNY's
6 students and the communities we are
7 privileged to serve.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you,
9 Chancellor.
10 Now, Chancellor Rodríguez.
11 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: Good
12 morning, Chairs Krueger, Weinstein, Stavisky
13 and Fahy, distinguished members of the
14 Assembly and the Senate finance committees,
15 staff, guests, and my good friend and partner
16 Chancellor King. I am Félix Matos Rodríguez,
17 or whatever is left of him. Proud to serve
18 as the chancellor of the City University of
19 New York.
20 I want to thank Governor Hochul and
21 you in the State Senate and Assembly for your
22 continued commitment to public higher
23 education. Your support over the past two
24 years has been critical to the important
20
1 contributions CUNY has made to New York's
2 rebound from the pandemic.
3 Now CUNY's building a strategy to make
4 our university even more impactful as an
5 agent of change and one of the state's most
6 potent economic engines. Last June we
7 unveiled an ambitious strategic roadmap
8 called "CUNY Lifting New York," a detailed
9 plan for bolstering the already profound
10 impact our university makes in the city,
11 region and state. I invite you to review it
12 if you haven't done so; I believe you have
13 copies of the roadmap on your desk in front
14 of you.
15 CUNY is integral to the lifeblood of
16 New York City. More than 80 percent of our
17 50,000 annual graduates stay in the city,
18 diversifying every sector of the city's
19 workforce and contributing to every aspect of
20 its economic and civic life. CUNY alumni in
21 New York account for about 70 billion in
22 annual earnings. That is close to 5 percent
23 of the state's GDP. Each taxpayer dollar
24 invested in CUNY returns at least $15 to
21
1 New York State. To quote a Daily News
2 editorial last spring, "Every dollar in is a
3 dollar that is magnified and keeps New York's
4 economy humming along."
5 Today I want to highlight a few areas
6 of recent success that are already advancing
7 our "CUNY Lifting New York" strategy.
8 One, we continue to transform how we
9 prepare students for careers and creating
10 direct and sustainable pipelines to
11 employers. Over the last year, we launched a
12 $1.8 million initiative to get more CUNY
13 students into paid internships that are
14 embedded in their degree programs, and we
15 provided internship opportunities to
16 4,000 students.
17 We also added a centralized point of
18 contact to help more than 1,000 private-
19 sector employers tap into the tremendous pool
20 of talent on our campuses. And our CUNY
21 Inclusive Economy initiative is expected to
22 engage an additional 2,700 students this
23 academic year.
24 We are also aggressively raising
22
1 external funds to bolster our fast-growing
2 research enterprise and advance our
3 programmatic initiatives. Last year, CUNY
4 researchers secured a record external funding
5 of $638 million, and we are on track this
6 year to surpass that record.
7 Last month, we received the
8 university's largest philanthropic donation
9 ever, a $75 million gift from the Simons
10 Foundation. The gift earmarks $50 million to
11 recruit 25 cutting-edge computational science
12 faculty and $25 million to participate in
13 Governor Hochul's proposed Empire AI project.
14 This work is interconnected to our efforts to
15 leverage advances in AI in our ongoing
16 student success network. One example of our
17 partnership is the one with the National
18 Institute for Student Success. They're
19 conducting an assessment, and their
20 assessment will help us develop a new
21 generation of AI-powered programs that reduce
22 obstacles to graduation for many students
23 systemwide.
24 Number three is our wide-ranging
23
1 program of capital projects. Last week, for
2 example, we opened a $95 million nursing
3 facility at Lehman College in the Bronx.
4 Funded primarily by the state, it's a
5 building that will offer high-quality
6 healthcare education to underserved
7 populations and help to address our state's
8 increasingly severe nursing shortage.
9 CUNY graduates an average of
10 1,800 nurses annually, representing about
11 half of the nurses entering New York City's
12 workforce each year.
13 A fourth area that I want to highlight
14 is CUNY's actions to combat hate,
15 antisemitism and Islamophobia, and be
16 proactive in creating campus communities
17 built on trust, understanding and inclusion.
18 Over the past year we have taken many steps
19 to combat antisemitism and other forms of
20 bigotry, and I'm happy to take your questions
21 on that and many of them are outlined in our
22 larger testimony.
23 Lastly, we are fixing long-term flaws
24 in our transfer system. For years many
24
1 associate-degree students have lost credits
2 toward their major when they transfer. By
3 the end of next year, students will be able
4 to transfer without losing credits earned in
5 their major. We estimate that the improved
6 process will save students who transfer, on
7 average, four excess credits and about $1,220
8 in tuition by the time they graduate. That's
9 money in their pocket or that's money that
10 the state is saving in TAP.
11 This is just a sampling of our recent
12 successes and efforts, and they reflect our
13 aspirations and plans for the coming years.
14 Those plans are always -- and now more than
15 ever -- dependent on the sustained support of
16 our elected leaders here in Albany. So let
17 me turn to the Governor's Executive Budget.
18 We are encouraged by the additional
19 operating and capital funding in the
20 Executive Budget. The Executive Budget
21 builds on the additional funding for CUNY
22 that Governor Hochul, you, and your
23 colleagues appropriated over the last two
24 years.
25
1 For CUNY's operating budget, there is
2 an increase of $36 million in operating
3 support for our senior colleges, which will
4 help cover fixed cost increases and enable us
5 to continue to build on the key initiatives
6 that remain central to CUNY's mission.
7 The Executive Budget also includes an
8 increase of $69.5 million for fringe
9 benefits. And the Executive Budget maintains
10 the community college funding floor at 100
11 percent of the previous year's funding, which
12 is crucial to avoiding a significant
13 reduction in funding for our community
14 colleges.
15 For CUNY's capital budget, the
16 Executive Budget provides critical
17 infrastructure investments to modernize our
18 25 campuses with an allocation of
19 $441 million. This support will enable us to
20 maintain our campuses in a state of good
21 repair and make strategic investments in new
22 facilities.
23 As some of you are aware, we've also
24 been facing a structural deficit since 2020
26
1 caused by many factors, including enrollment
2 declines that accelerated with the pandemic
3 and increased costs in mandatory needs that
4 the university had to absorb. We have
5 enacted a strategy to address the deficit
6 which has included two rounds of
7 across-the-board savings targets, a hiring
8 freeze, and the creation of a Vacancy Review
9 Board to ensure that hires across the
10 university are aligned with available
11 resources.
12 These actions, coupled with the
13 federal pandemic stimulus funds and -- thanks
14 to you and Governor Hochul -- additional
15 state operating aid, have reduced the deficit
16 by almost half, from a high of $234 million
17 in fiscal year 2022 to a projected
18 $128 million for the end of this fiscal year.
19 While we have made great strides,
20 there is still more work to be done. We have
21 devised additional expense reduction
22 strategies at both the college level and
23 university-wide. This includes a more
24 targeted approach for colleges that have
27
1 shown signs of more fiscal distress, as well
2 as additional shared services in areas such
3 as IT, collections, and optimizing class
4 scheduling.
5 On the revenue side, we are vigorously
6 continuing strategies to boost enrollment and
7 retention.
8 The State Financial Plan released with
9 the Executive Budget states that CUNY is at
10 various stages of negotiating contracts with
11 its labor unions. We are pleased that we
12 reached a tentative agreement covering over
13 10,000 employees represented by CUNY's
14 classified staff unions, including District
15 Council 37 and Teamsters Local 237. We are in
16 negotiations with the Professional Staff
17 Congress and are committed to bargaining in
18 good faith to reach a fair settlement soon.
19 These new labor contracts with our talented
20 and dedicated faculty and staff are
21 necessary, but are not without increased
22 costs to the university.
23 Although we have seen a roughly
24 2 percent increase in enrollment, we're still
28
1 far below pre-pandemic levels. We are down
2 about 40,000 students from the fall of 2019.
3 This has a major impact on our bottom line.
4 For example, CUNY lost $140 million in
5 tuition revenue between fiscal years 2020 and
6 2022 when enrollment dropped by 14 percent.
7 Like the state, city, and other public
8 entities like the MTA, we were aided by
9 federal stimulus funds that helped cover the
10 lost revenue and pandemic-related expenses --
11 but these one-time funds will be exhausted by
12 the end of the fiscal year.
13 With your continued support and that
14 of the Governor, we will continue to make
15 progress in our ambitious vision to transform
16 CUNY into the nation's foremost
17 student-centered urban university system.
18 And I thank you all for your strong support
19 and partnership, and look forward to your
20 questions.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
22 Thank you, Chancellor.
23 Before we begin some questions from
24 colleagues, I'd like to just acknowledge that
29
1 Alicia Hyndman and Jo Anne Simon,
2 Assemblymembers, joined us at the beginning
3 of this hearing.
4 And we will now go to the chair of the
5 Assembly's Higher Education Committee,
6 Pat Fahy, for questions.
7 And I just -- for members who haven't
8 been here before, and for witnesses, we have
9 a new microphone system. So sometimes you
10 have to press down hard to get that red ring
11 to turn to green.
12 Assemblywoman Fahy.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you. Thank
14 you, Chair. And again, great to see you back
15 and have you with us today.
16 And thank you to both chancellors for
17 very thorough testimony. I have a whole host
18 of questions, and at least for once I don't
19 have three minutes, but we've got a lot of
20 questions to get through.
21 First a couple of comments. I want to
22 start by saying thank you, thank you, to both
23 of you. While I didn't tour every campus, I
24 toured a number of them, and I want you to
30
1 know you, your staff and each of the
2 presidents of those colleges could not have
3 been more gracious, especially with some of
4 those last-minute tours that I was able to
5 do. So very much appreciate that.
6 I also appreciate a number of things
7 that you mentioned, which we'll try to get
8 back to momentarily. But you both referred
9 to some of the Supreme Court setbacks last
10 year, not long after I came into this
11 position -- and really appreciated your
12 responsiveness. We all value the diversity
13 on our campuses, and thank you for the
14 continued momentum forward to increase that
15 diversity despite the challenges that we have
16 received.
17 Funding. I want to commend you both
18 for issuing your fiscal reports that were
19 requested last year in our final budget
20 agreement. There was the request that we get
21 a fiscal report to really try to address
22 these years of disinvestment and what it
23 might take to turn those around. Both of you
24 have issued very, very sobering reports, and
31
1 I am glad that it caught a lot of attention.
2 I want to turn to both of you to talk
3 about -- while you addressed many of those
4 issues in your testimony, I think it's
5 important that you highlight what the
6 outyears will bring if we don't turn around
7 this disinvestment. And with that I should
8 add I'm very proud of the work done by those
9 sitting here, as well as so many in the room
10 here today, to finally provide substantial
11 investments. And I thank the Speaker as well
12 as the Senate Leader on that as well.
13 So we turned it around last year. You
14 followed through. Both of you have had
15 enrollment increases for the first time in
16 multiple years. That has made a difference.
17 I'm really hoping the FAFSA -- I commend the
18 Governor for including that in the budget. I
19 hope that's going to also turn around the
20 enrollment.
21 With that, I would like you to address
22 if there's anything that you missed, again,
23 from those very sobering reports, and we
24 appreciate you getting those to us in a
32
1 timely fashion.
2 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Thanks so much,
3 Chair Fahy, and really appreciate your
4 leadership. Grateful for the 163 million
5 last year. Grateful that the Governor has
6 54 million in this year's budget.
7 But as you look out over a 10-year
8 period, expenses will continue to grow.
9 Goods and services will cost more, and
10 salaries will cost more. We just completed a
11 very strong contract with UUP; well-deserved
12 raises. But that will add $86 million in
13 costs to the SUNY system this year.
14 And so in order for us to keep up with
15 those rising costs we either need increases
16 in direct state support or tuition increases.
17 But we need a revenue source. Otherwise,
18 when you look out 10 years, we have a billion
19 dollar deficit. So modest investments over
20 time will make the difference.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you.
22 Chancellor Matos Rodríguez.
23 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:
24 Thank you. And thank you for your
33
1 leadership, and thank you, it's been great to
2 have you coming to visit our campuses and
3 have some of the hearings there. So
4 appreciate that, the visits and the support.
5 Clearly we -- in the report that we
6 provided, we want to make sure that we
7 provided all of you with the best clear
8 roadmap of where we see the future in terms
9 of the investments that are needed for us to
10 have the kind of excellence that you expect
11 in our campuses.
12 And in our case the cost of the
13 collective bargaining -- which, you know, in
14 our budget request we estimate that it will
15 be around $184 million. We have not settled
16 the contract with our faculty like SUNY has,
17 right, so that's a projection based on a
18 contract that mirrors theirs, and we'll have
19 to negotiate in good faith and see where ours
20 end. But we wanted to provide a projection
21 for all of you.
22 But those are indispensable costs, to
23 be able to build all the incredible
24 programming that you're all proud of that we
34
1 are proud of, that makes the university
2 distinct, is based on our human capital.
3 Which is 85 percent of our cost, right? If
4 that is not benchmarked, if that is not
5 protected, right, the rest of the operation
6 will suffer. And we have, I think, a vision
7 of cost cutting and discipline on our end,
8 but we need the additional investments from
9 all of you to make that path one that's
10 sustainable.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you. I've
12 got a few more questions I want to get to,
13 but I want you to know that we have launched
14 a "Turn on the TAP" campaign to really help
15 you with those enrollment costs of increasing
16 TAP, which also has really not kept pace with
17 inflation at all, especially for the last
18 25 years, and it's only a 50-year program.
19 So we'll continue to work with you as well as
20 on that very essential operating aid, as well
21 as on the capital that both of you mentioned.
22 I would also be remiss if I didn't
23 mention the internships. Thank you for
24 mentioning that. The CUNY internships, I saw
35
1 in your testimony you mentioned 4,000. As
2 we've talked about, both of you, I've
3 mentioned a number of times I would hope that
4 we could get to a goal that every student,
5 every student before they graduate would have
6 an opportunity in an internship program,
7 because that will also help keep them in
8 New York even though all of your stats are
9 impressive. We need to keep those students.
10 A couple of other questions. Students
11 can't learn if they don't feel safe. It's a
12 prerequisite for being able to focus on your
13 academics. So thank you, both of you, for
14 addressing this extraordinary rise in hate
15 and threats of violence on campus,
16 particularly with antisemitism as well as
17 racism and Islamophobia.
18 Chancellor King, you have
19 particularly -- we've had many conversations
20 about this. Can you briefly mention the
21 Title VI and how you have trained I know
22 hundreds of staff, as well as each of your
23 presidents, to be immediately responsive so
24 that students can feel safe?
36
1 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Look, student
2 safety is our top priority. Title VI of the
3 Civil Rights Act requires that campuses
4 protect students from discrimination or
5 harassment on the basis of race or ethnicity.
6 And so we've been very clear that there's no
7 place for antisemitism at SUNY. We've
8 provided training for our senior staff on
9 their responsibilities under Title VI. We've
10 also deployed our university police
11 department to provide additional security for
12 Shabbat services, for vigils and protests.
13 We want our campuses to be places
14 where students feel safe and where they can
15 engage in dialogue with real disagreements
16 about policy matters. But no student should
17 ever feel unsafe, and we're working to ensure
18 that.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you. I
20 agree. We need to maintain that civil
21 discourse and encourage civil debate, which
22 is what our campuses are supposed to be the
23 centers of.
24 Anything else on that, Chancellor?
37
1 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: I
2 would only echo what the chancellor has said.
3 On our end we've been very proactive on this
4 front. We were very proactive because the
5 race hate and antisemitism preceded
6 October 7th. October 7th just escalated that
7 to a different level.
8 So we've had a partnership with our
9 Hillels. Several of them are doing a deeper
10 dive into campus culture, we're part of that,
11 with a survey of climate and review of
12 policies. So we're working with them to do
13 that.
14 We have some of the money from the
15 state -- we've provided grants to our
16 campuses so they have workshops, symposia,
17 activities -- training, so we also get to
18 better understanding. And we've also worked
19 very hard -- I mean, many of our campuses are
20 urban campuses, so our campuses mix with the
21 city. So we work very closely with NYPD in
22 providing safety and making sure that people
23 that want to use their First Amendment do
24 that in an appropriate way.
38
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Yes. Yes. We
2 definitely want to encourage that.
3 Thank you. I have three other things
4 that I want to get to very briefly, but I'm
5 going to start with community colleges. But
6 we do want to talk about AI -- and I'm hoping
7 not to do it in another 10 minutes -- and
8 certainly the SUNY Downstate hospital, which
9 has lots of concerns there. Thank you for
10 mentioning it, Chancellor King.
11 Can we briefly talk about the
12 community colleges? And the colleges -- I
13 know the SUNY colleges have talked about an
14 additional $97 million on top of the
15 100 percent floor. We know they are key to
16 growing AI. I think all of us want to make
17 this the epicenter of the country, if not the
18 world, for AI investments. Can you talk
19 about community colleges?
20 And certainly, Chancellor Matos
21 Rodríguez, I know your community colleges
22 have also struggled at times, but this is key
23 to turning it around. And we've got 30
24 seconds. Thank you.
39
1 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Community
2 colleges are a vital engine for workforce
3 development. We're really grateful for the
4 TAP for non-credit workforce programs that is
5 already making a big difference on campuses.
6 The community college presidents have
7 a proposal for $97 million to allow them to
8 do more high-demand workforce training.
9 Think about Onondaga Community College and
10 preparing the workforce for Micron. That's
11 going to be huge for Central New York.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Great point.
13 Thank you.
14 Chancellor Rodríguez.
15 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:
16 Well, on our end too, you know, we've -- our
17 community colleges have suffered from the
18 budget cuts on the city side, right. And we
19 are doing advocacy to make sure that we
20 restore that --
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you.
22 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: --
23 along with enrollment.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
40
1 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: But
2 they're a key part of our pipeline also to
3 the four-year schools.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you,
5 Chancellor.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you, Chair.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: And this
8 actually might be a good time to mention that
9 there may, as the day goes on, be questions
10 that you will not have enough time to fully
11 answer. So please, after the hearing, send
12 us in writing, to Senator Krueger and myself,
13 the responses and we'll make sure to share
14 with all of our colleagues.
15 Before we go to the Senate, I just
16 wanted to acknowledge we've been joined by
17 Assemblywoman Wallace.
18 And we go to the Senate.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
20 We go to the chair, Senator Toby
21 Stavisky.
22 SENATOR O'MARA: I would just like to
23 add that we've been joined by Senator Dean
24 Murray on our side. Thank you.
41
1 I'm sorry.
2 (Mic problem; off the record.)
3 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you both for
4 your testimony.
5 Before I get to other subjects, let me
6 address one issue that I think you started to
7 address, and I want to just pick up on that.
8 And that involves the issue of Downstate, the
9 medical school for downstate students. I was
10 looking at last year's testimony, and I asked
11 you -- you had spoken last year about the 19
12 distressed SUNY hospitals. And this question
13 is obviously for Chancellor King.
14 And then I asked you about Downstate,
15 because it wasn't mentioned. And there have
16 been problems with Downstate going back to
17 10 or 15 years, if not longer. And you had
18 talked -- it was sort of a generic answer
19 about the importance of Downstate, which I
20 know you recognize. But now it's sort of
21 being dealt with at the last minute.
22 When did discussions on the future of
23 Downstate begin? Approximately.
24 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Well, this is,
42
1 as you know, a 15-, 20-year conversation
2 about the challenges at Downstate. Last
3 session we had a budget ask around a
4 significant help for the deficit at
5 Downstate. We didn't get that. We did get
6 some debt relief, thanks to your leadership,
7 which we appreciate.
8 But we came into this year knowing
9 that we would face a $100 million deficit.
10 We will run out of cash to continue to
11 operate by the summer. And so once we didn't
12 get additional funding in last year's enacted
13 budget, we began conversations with the
14 chamber about strategies for how to address
15 the deficit and how to address the
16 significant capital needs.
17 As you know, there's been a history of
18 disinvestment, and capital is deteriorating,
19 the building has flooding regularly,
20 temperature-control issues, and is at real
21 risk of catastrophic failure and harm to
22 patients and staff.
23 And in our conversations with the
24 Governor, the Governor was willing to make an
43
1 extraordinary investment, 300 million in
2 capital, covering the deficits for two years,
3 which is another $200 million, as well as
4 ongoing operating support.
5 SENATOR STAVISKY: Yeah, I get that
6 part. But did you discuss, for example, the
7 issues with the administration at Downstate?
8 You mentioned the Executive.
9 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: So there's an
10 ongoing conversation with leadership at
11 Downstate.
12 It's really important to distinguish
13 as well between Downstate Health Sciences
14 University and the hospital. And the
15 challenges that have driven our
16 Transformation Plan for the hospital are
17 about saving the hospital. The Health
18 Sciences University is, as you know,
19 providing a critical service for the state in
20 terms of the diverse healthcare workforce.
21 SENATOR STAVISKY: So have you
22 discussed this, for example, with the
23 president of Downstate or the dean?
24 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: With
44
1 President Riley?
2 SENATOR STAVISKY: With
3 President Riley.
4 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah, we've had
5 an ongoing discussion since I started as
6 chancellor in January.
7 SENATOR STAVISKY: Since you started.
8 Did that occur down at Downstate, or was that
9 on Zoom or --
10 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: I visited
11 Downstate very early on. I've been back to
12 Downstate. I was very pleased --
13 SENATOR STAVISKY: Was that with
14 Dr. Riley?
15 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah. And was
16 very pleased to be back at downstate this
17 summer for the Premed EOP program which we're
18 very grateful for --
19 SENATOR STAVISKY: So you and he
20 would -- I don't mean to interrupt, but I'm
21 watching the clock.
22 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yes. Yeah.
23 SENATOR STAVISKY: You and he were
24 down there at Downstate this summer
45
1 discussing the issue.
2 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: We've had
3 multiple conversations, again, since I began
4 in January. At Downstate, in Albany, on the
5 phone. Our senior vice chancellor for health
6 and hospitals has been very engaged with
7 Downstate trying to figure out a path to save
8 the hospital.
9 SENATOR STAVISKY: My question, then,
10 is I found out about this the Monday --
11 Martin Luther King Day, when you called me,
12 the day before the Governor released her
13 budget. I heard during the Health Department
14 hearing that the commissioner of Health read
15 about it in the newspaper.
16 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Again, we're
17 very fortunate the Governor included in the
18 Executive Budget the funding that would
19 provide capital support to save the hospital,
20 to allow us to build a new $300 million
21 outpatient facility --
22 SENATOR STAVISKY: All right. But to
23 ask us -- I'm questioning how we can get
24 additional information during this
46
1 time frame.
2 Let me ask you a couple of other
3 questions --
4 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Sure.
5 SENATOR STAVISKY: -- real quick,
6 because I do want to get on to other
7 subjects. But this, I must tell you, is of
8 great, great concern to me, quite frankly, as
9 chair of the committee, but also to the
10 legislators who represent the Central
11 Brooklyn area -- and even most importantly,
12 to the people who use this facility, these
13 facilities, for their healthcare, as
14 healthcare providers.
15 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Look, I
16 understand, Senator. And as we've discussed,
17 you know, this is the community I grew up in.
18 It's a healthcare community I know well. My
19 earliest memory of a hospital is when I was
20 at Kings County with my mom when she had a
21 heart attack, passed away when I was eight.
22 So I know the community needs very well. I
23 appreciate folks' frustration with the
24 history of disinvestment in Central Brooklyn.
47
1 And my goal here is to strengthen the
2 Health Sciences University and to preserve
3 and expand the health services for the
4 community.
5 SENATOR STAVISKY: So to accomplish
6 this you've outlined some general actions
7 that we ought to take. And we're not
8 disagreeing in terms of the needs.
9 Do you need a CON, a Certificate of
10 Need, from the Health Department, for
11 example?
12 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: We're working
13 through now with the staff at Downstate, as
14 well as with Health + Hospitals, as well as
15 with DOH, the details of the process that
16 would need to take place in the coming weeks
17 and months.
18 It's important to say that as part of
19 this plan, in addition to building a new
20 outpatient facility, the bulk of the
21 inpatient services would move across the
22 state to a SUNY Downstate dedicated space
23 within Kings County.
24 The staff, the vast majority would go
48
1 over to that SUNY Downstate dedicated space,
2 and they would continue to provide services
3 as SUNY Downstate employees in a SUNY
4 Downstate identified area. But the capital
5 conditions at Kings County are significantly
6 superior to the conditions at Downstate.
7 SENATOR STAVISKY: I asked about the
8 CON. Is there going to be an application for
9 that or not?
10 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Again, those
11 are -- that's a process we are working
12 through with the staff at Downstate, with
13 Health + Hospitals, and with the Department
14 of Health over the coming weeks and months.
15 SENATOR STAVISKY: Are you planning to
16 request a Health Equity Impact Assessment
17 statement? And if so, who would provide
18 that?
19 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Again, that's a
20 determination that will be made in the coming
21 weeks and months, along with Health +
22 Hospitals and the Department of Health.
23 I will say the Department of Health
24 recently issued a health equity report for
49
1 Central Brooklyn that emphasized many of the
2 areas that this plan addresses, the dire need
3 for additional urgent care, primary care,
4 preventive care. And that's one of the
5 reasons we're so appreciative of the
6 Governor's willingness to invest $300 million
7 in the new outpatient facility.
8 SENATOR STAVISKY: Did that DOH report
9 include capital, or was it just --
10 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: The DOH report
11 was focused on --
12 SENATOR STAVISKY: I know that.
13 That's why I asked what --
14 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: -- the
15 conditions of services in the area, but it
16 called for -- it highlighted, rather, the
17 need for additional outpatient services,
18 including the training of primary care
19 doctors, which is a critical role that
20 Downstate can play.
21 SENATOR STAVISKY: Can we assume that
22 you're going to continue to work with the
23 Department of Hospitals on these issues that
24 are facing the Central Brooklyn community?
50
1 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Absolutely.
2 With the Department of Health, with Health +
3 Hospitals, and with the community. And just
4 yesterday we laid out a whole community
5 engagement process as we worked through
6 implementation of the principles that the
7 Governor established.
8 SENATOR STAVISKY: Real quick, because
9 I have 39 seconds. There have been rumors
10 about CUNY -- about SUNY housing appearing on
11 your campuses. Can you --
12 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah, the --
13 you know, we share the Governor's commitment
14 to address the issue of housing. It's
15 certainly hampering the state's well-being
16 and economic development.
17 The Governor asked state agencies to
18 identify state properties where housing could
19 be developed. And in those conversations we
20 shared a list of places where there's the
21 possibility for development. In particular,
22 there are places where our campuses are very
23 eager to have additional housing for staff.
24 And so that's one of the things we're talking
51
1 through with the chamber.
2 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you,
3 Chancellor. I'll ask additional questions,
4 follow-up questions later. Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
6 So we go now to the ranker on
7 Higher Education, Assemblyman Smullen, five
8 minutes.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: Thank you very
10 much, Chair.
11 This is really important testimony
12 today because education for all New Yorkers
13 is a critical thing, and public education is
14 even more so. It's a matter of fundamental
15 equity for New Yorkers. So I'd like to start
16 actually with Chancellor King. I know we've
17 been talking about rural equity and what's
18 fair for New Yorkers. How is the funding
19 formula for community colleges coming along?
20 You know, I did note in the budget that the
21 Governor put out that it stayed flat. So
22 flat in an inflationary period is a cut. And
23 I'm very concerned about funding our
24 community colleges because those are the
52
1 gateways for many students in rural areas to
2 be able to make their foray into higher
3 education.
4 So could you address how we're working
5 to actually fully fund our community
6 colleges? Because they have a different
7 funding model than the other SUNY campuses,
8 and it's becoming even more precarious, in my
9 mind.
10 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Appreciate the
11 question, Assemblyman. And appreciate
12 your having joined me on visits to campuses
13 and your interest in community colleges.
14 I will say community colleges have
15 lost significant enrollment over the last
16 decade. That's probably the biggest
17 financial challenge.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: Why have they
19 lost enrollment?
20 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Well, it's a
21 mix of factors. Certainly, you know, we've
22 seen that nationally, a decline in community
23 college enrollment. Some of it has to do
24 with folks making the choice to go directly
53
1 into jobs. Some of it has to do with folks
2 not having the resources to go to college.
3 One of the reasons why TAP reform and
4 Pell reform is so promising, because the
5 purchasing power of TAP and Pell have
6 diminished over the last two decades.
7 So resources are a constraint. The
8 competition with the economy is a constraint.
9 But what we see is that as our community
10 colleges adjust and offer programs
11 specifically that help provide a pathway into
12 the workforce, we are seeing great demand
13 there. It's one of the reasons we are so
14 appreciative of the TAP for workforce
15 development programs.
16 The Governor's budget, you know,
17 maintains the funding floor, which protects
18 what would otherwise be an $85 million cut if
19 the funding was based solely on enrollment.
20 As I mentioned earlier, the community college
21 presidents have a proposal around an
22 additional operating investment focused on
23 workforce opportunities and their role in
24 preparing the semiconductor workforce we
54
1 need, the green jobs workforce we need, the
2 nurses and allied health field folks that we
3 need.
4 And so we are eager to have a fuller
5 conversation with you and your colleagues
6 about how we might enhance community college
7 funding specifically around workforce needs.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: Yeah, thank you
9 very much for that, because one of the
10 programs that's been very successful in my
11 mind is the P-TECH program, Early College
12 High School. And, you know, I see an
13 opportunity with the community colleges of
14 how they're spread throughout the state to
15 actually being -- taking more of a role,
16 educating more high schoolers in more
17 technical aspects.
18 You know, I would love to see that
19 every college in the state would have a
20 program for Early College High School to
21 teach like AP physics to high schoolers.
22 Otherwise, it's not available to these rural
23 kids who then are at a disadvantage when they
24 go to apply to schools that require a lot of
55
1 technical advanced learning in order to be
2 admitted to them, that sort of thing. It
3 puts our rural kids at a comparative
4 disadvantage.
5 So regarding the full-time-equivalent
6 funding model itself, we've talked in the
7 past about having it on a rolling 10-year
8 average to prevent it from being the ups and
9 downs of the countercyclical nature of
10 community colleges. Would that be a helpful
11 paradigm in order to get the budgeting right
12 for these community colleges? They get
13 one-third of their funding from the state,
14 they get one-third from the students, they
15 get one-third from the communities, the
16 property taxpayers primarily in those areas.
17 How are we able to -- you know, to level this
18 funding out so it's steady for them?
19 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah, we'd
20 certainly be open to a conversation about
21 that.
22 I will say the floor over recent years
23 has been critical. And I would not want to
24 depart from the community college funding
56
1 floor. The community colleges are really
2 counting on that for their planning.
3 That said, a larger conversation about
4 the level of funding as well as ways to level
5 it out over time as enrollment shifts -- we
6 certainly would be open to that conversation.
7 One of the keys for us is, though,
8 converting the folks who are in workforce
9 development programs that are non-credit into
10 students in degree programs. You know, we
11 have 1.4 million students we serve each year
12 at SUNY, but a million of them are in
13 these -- are in programs other than the
14 degree programs. And so we've really got to
15 get better at that.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: If we had lots
17 of microcredentialing, that would be awesome.
18 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Absolutely.
19 absolutely.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: Thanks,
21 Chancellor.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
24 Senator Murray.
57
1 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you, Chair.
2 And thank you both for being here.
3 A couple of quick questions. First,
4 on the -- we have a migrant issue, we have a
5 housing and shelter problem. There's been
6 talk of possibly using SUNY or CUNY campuses.
7 Where does that stand now? Is that currently
8 happening? Are there still talks going on?
9 Where are we?
10 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: You know, look,
11 the state is facing this humanitarian crisis.
12 The Governor asked last year for all state
13 agencies to identify how they could help to
14 address this humanitarian crisis. We
15 responded to that request.
16 But to date, it has not been necessary
17 to have folks housed at our facilities. We
18 have one program that's longstanding with a
19 nonprofit at Buffalo State. But other than
20 that, we really haven't had a role so far.
21 SENATOR MURRAY: Okay. Thank you.
22 There's pending legislation now --
23 sorry, I only have three minutes, so --
24 there's pending legislation right now that
58
1 would require project labor agreements on
2 projects of 3 million or more. It's working
3 its way through the Legislature now. It has
4 a lot of support. What are your thoughts on
5 that?
6 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: We're certainly
7 open to conversation about how the PLA law
8 could work. You know, I think there are
9 different needs in different regions of the
10 state. So we'd want to talk through the
11 implications for timelines for construction
12 projects depending on the region of the
13 state. But certainly open to the continued
14 conversation on that.
15 SENATOR MURRAY: Are there any
16 particular sticking points that you see?
17 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Again, I think
18 it goes down -- it comes back to regional
19 differences across the state, and places
20 where there are real labor-supply shortages
21 and what that would mean for our ability to
22 complete projects. But we're very open to
23 the conversation.
24 SENATOR MURRAY: What about yourself?
59
1 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: I'm
2 not familiar with the legislation, so I
3 cannot comment. So look forward to finding
4 out more and being able to respond.
5 SENATOR MURRAY: Okay, very good.
6 And then finally, you had mentioned
7 research. And I know at SUNY Stony Brook I
8 talked to President McInnis last year about a
9 lot of the great projects they have going on,
10 but also about public/private partnerships
11 and investing from the outside. They're
12 doing a fairly good job, but could be better.
13 What are your thoughts on that?
14 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: One of the
15 things that was very helpful was the
16 inclusion in last year's enacted budget of
17 the endowment match. As you know, for
18 Stony Brook that has already translated into
19 a $500 million unrestricted gift that will be
20 matched with state funds. That's very
21 helpful to the long-term future of research
22 at Stony Brook.
23 Stony Brook also is fortunate to be
24 selected to lead the construction of a
60
1 $700 million Climate Change and Resilience
2 Campus at Governors Island, and that is
3 another public-private partnership. So we're
4 certainly trying to leverage those kinds of
5 private/public partnerships.
6 Here in Albany the Governor recently
7 announced a $10 billion investment at
8 Albany NanoTech. That is another
9 private-public partnership, to drive
10 research.
11 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you so much.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman Ra
14 for five minutes, ranker.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
16 Good morning, Chancellors.
17 I want to go back to the antisemitism
18 issue, in particular for Chancellor
19 Rodríguez. And if we have time, I'd be
20 interested in, Chancellor King, your
21 elaborating a little bit about measures that
22 have been taken.
23 But as you know, you know, prior to
24 October 7th this was a hot topic at CUNY, an
61
1 issue. I know you talked about some of the
2 initiatives that have been taken. And I
3 certainly, you know, appreciate that you came
4 out rather strongly when it came to student
5 groups that were, you know, participating in
6 protests that I think were causing our
7 Jewish students to feel unsafe. So I
8 appreciate that, and I hope you'll remain
9 steadfast with those Jewish students.
10 But where do you think CUNY is at this
11 point in addressing this problem? You know,
12 every time there's some type of incident --
13 and, you know, I'm right over the Nassau
14 border, so I certainly have -- I know every
15 year you make a point of telling us, you
16 know, students and staff that we have in our
17 districts. So it's certainly a big concern
18 for our constituents, what's going on there.
19 So if you can give me a little bit
20 more about what we're doing to make sure our
21 Jewish students feel safe at this very
22 difficult time.
23 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: So
24 thank you for the question.
62
1 And I mentioned that, you know, we
2 designed, even before October 7th, a plan to
3 address it because the cases were on the
4 rise. We put funds from the Assembly that we
5 gave to the campuses as grants for them to be
6 able to do training programs, initiatives,
7 exhibits, educational work, right, to be able
8 to address some of these issues -- mostly
9 from a proactive standpoint as opposed to
10 dealing with things when they occurred.
11 We have been also having direct lines
12 of communication with the Hillels on our
13 campuses. We have piloted a campus climate
14 initiative on seven of our campuses, taking
15 feedback from them. I'll give you one
16 example. I established an Advisory Council
17 on Jewish Life that has been giving me
18 feedback about things that we could do
19 better. I'll give you one concrete example.
20 It is New York State law and CUNY
21 policy that faculty need to accommodate
22 students if they want to observe a religious
23 holiday, that they be absent from the
24 classes. We got feedback from the students
63
1 in the community that that was something that
2 not always, and we initiated a campaign using
3 student voices to let them know what CUNY
4 policy was and what New York State law is.
5 Right?
6 And that was a way to say that we're
7 listening to their concerns and sending a
8 message of inclusion, of safety on the
9 campuses. We will continue to do more. And
10 we take that very seriously. And any
11 feedback that you might have, or your
12 colleagues, I'll be happy to listen to that
13 too.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Sure. And can you
15 give me any sense of what you're learning
16 from the portal in terms of, you know, the
17 number of incidents going up or down? I
18 think we know at large we've seen a huge
19 uptick in these types of incidents in recent
20 months. But since the portal has been up,
21 have you seen any trends with regard to
22 incidents?
23 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:
24 Well, thank you for the question.
64
1 One thing that we learned is actually
2 we're procuring for a far more sophisticated
3 instrument to be able to capture and make it
4 easier for individuals to file any complaints
5 they might have on discrimination, harassment
6 or things of that matter, so that we can be
7 more timely in knowing where the cases are,
8 work with campuses that might have delays in
9 responding.
10 So we learned that the portal was a
11 great first step at centralizing getting good
12 information, making something available to
13 everybody in the system to be able to file a
14 complaint before it was done, campus by
15 campus. And if you had questions for me
16 about data, I would have to ask 25 separate
17 campuses for their data.
18 So it's a step in the right direction,
19 but as we did that, we now want something far
20 more sophisticated that can be a lot more
21 customer-friendly, that can send reports to
22 the individuals who filed the complaints
23 about where they are in time. So we're
24 procuring an instrument to be able to do
65
1 that.
2 And what we have done, to your
3 question too, in some of the campuses that
4 have had sort of higher numbers of incidents
5 reported, we've been able to deploy some
6 resources to help them expedite the
7 resolution of those complaints.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
9 And Chancellor King, anything you have
10 on the issue in 30 seconds?
11 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: I'd just add
12 that, you know, I'm very proud of the work
13 that our presidents and staff on our campuses
14 have done to try to defuse issues, to try to
15 create a climate for positive, safe exchange
16 of ideas.
17 But this is an area where we have to
18 be ever-vigilant. And we've just been very
19 clear at SUNY, we're not going to tolerate
20 antisemitism. We're going to take action.
21 Every time there's a bias incident report,
22 we're going to investigate it and make a
23 determination on what next steps are
24 necessary.
66
1 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: And
2 687 students from CUNY in your district,
3 since you brought that up.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you,
5 Chancellor.
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: To the Senate.
7 (Inaudible; off the record.)
8 SENATOR RIVERA: Hello, Chancellor. I
9 only have three minutes, so I'm going to
10 get -- there's three questions that I have as
11 follow-up to Senator Stavisky's questions
12 regarding SUNY Downstate. And we've had
13 conversations about this. But I have three,
14 so I'm going to ask them all and then I will
15 give you the opportunity.
16 Number one, you keep referring to
17 money that has been committed to actually --
18 to make this transformation happen, both on
19 the capital side and the operational side.
20 Can you tell us where in the budget that is?
21 That's number one.
22 Number two, there was a series of
23 questions that the -- that Senator Stavisky
24 asked about -- both about the Certificate of
67
1 Need and also Health Equity Impact
2 Assessments. And sincerely, both of those
3 questions you really did not answer them
4 well. The notion -- and this is why I wanted
5 to get into whether you felt that we're
6 talking about processes that are required for
7 basically any other health institution around
8 the state that is trying to do anything as
9 what -- that is close to what you're
10 suggesting you want to do at SUNY Downstate.
11 So the fact that you're saying, Well, we
12 might get into that, you didn't answer the
13 question directly of whether that's going to
14 be sought or not, which is truly
15 unacceptable. But I wanted you to have a
16 chance to kind of explain yourself there. I
17 should tell you there's a piece of
18 legislation I've introduced to kind of make
19 it so that every institution has to go
20 through the same thing.
21 But regardless, the third one is
22 related to the community involvement process.
23 You stated just -- earlier referred to
24 something that happened yesterday,
68
1 February 7th, as relates to community
2 involvement. Which if I had any
3 conversations with any of my colleague who
4 represent the area, any of the community
5 organizations that are there, some of the
6 folks who work there or represent the people
7 who work there, all of them are -- have been
8 very clear, in every conversation that I've
9 had, and certainly every public comment that
10 they've made, that the community involvement
11 process has been nonexistent or a failure so
12 far.
13 So the fact that you're saying proudly
14 you did something yesterday on something that
15 you announced a couple of weeks ago that the
16 Department of Health, as was stated, right
17 there on the record told me that they found
18 out that this was happening from you, from
19 the press, all of that stuff.
20 So those are the three things.
21 Where's the money? Please be specific.
22 Number two, the Certificate of Need process.
23 And number three, do you sincerely think that
24 the process you've gone through so far as far
69
1 as community involvement has been a good one?
2 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Again, to be
3 clear, our goal is to protect the Health
4 Sciences University, strengthen it, and to
5 preserve and expand health services in the
6 community.
7 The funding that the Governor
8 committed to in the Executive Budget is in a
9 fund -- I believe it's called the Hospital
10 Transformation Fund. But we can get you the
11 specific reference to the --
12 SENATOR RIVERA: Please do. We'll
13 follow up with whomever. Raise your hand who
14 we're following up with.
15 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yes, Val Grey,
16 our senior vice chancellor for health and
17 hospitals, can follow up. And we've also
18 briefed Senate staff on that.
19 So that's the source of the funding.
20 As the enacted budget is finalized, there may
21 be other places to address some of the
22 funding. One of the goals is to have an
23 expanded simulation lab, for example, at
24 Downstate to support the training of nurses.
70
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. We
2 go to Assemblyman Epstein, three minutes.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Good morning.
4 Thank you both for being here.
5 So TAP, expanding opportunities for
6 people to get TAP, I hear you both saying
7 that. So do you agree on increasing the
8 minimum award, allowing more semesters of
9 TAP, and allowing TAP for grad school for
10 students, both of you?
11 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: More TAP would
12 be great. Raising the income threshold would
13 be great. When we had our TAP hearing,
14 you'll recall, I pointed out that the income
15 threshold of $80,000 --
16 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: I only have
17 three minutes, so I --
18 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Oh, sorry.
19 Just that the income threshold at $80,000, if
20 it had gone up with inflation since 2000, it
21 would be $145,000.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Great.
23 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: More
24 TAP, all over, good. Increasing the
71
1 eligibility, good.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Great. Thank
3 you.
4 And so I wanted just to talk about
5 greening your campuses. And so we have the
6 Environmental Bond Act. You know, our
7 government lands are a real place where we
8 could do wind, solar, have our students get
9 involved in composting -- there's so many
10 opportunities there. I'm wondering if you
11 both -- I know you've talked about green
12 plans, and like quickly, can we hear what we
13 can do to help you move forward in that
14 agenda?
15 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah. We're
16 very focused on this. We appointed our first
17 ever chief sustainability officer, who's
18 leading in this work.
19 There are two -- the major challenge
20 is capital. We have an over $8 billion
21 capital backlog across the system. We've
22 prioritized, in the use of any capital
23 dollars we get, we move up in the project
24 list projects that will move towards energy
72
1 efficiency, help us get towards net-zero.
2 But we need more. And we have a specific
3 proposal around a $100 million clean energy
4 fund, which would help us implement the
5 energy master plans that we've gathered from
6 our campuses. But that would be hugely
7 helpful.
8 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: On
9 our end, too, if you saw our budget request
10 on capital, we made a specific ask precisely
11 about those things to be able to {inaudible}
12 sustainability goals for the state.
13 So be happy to do a deeper dive on
14 that. But we concur, I concur with
15 Chancellor King too that for that, if you
16 could have, you know, dollars that go to
17 that, it would be helpful to advance all
18 those goals. In addition to that, it helps
19 the entire state of good repair of our
20 facilities.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And just for the
22 CUNY system, I know the issue of dorms is a
23 big issue and having dorm space. Obviously
24 on a lot of our SUNY campuses we have them,
73
1 but mostly we don't on CUNY. How do we
2 expand those opportunities to get students
3 into our CUNY system knowing they may have a
4 place to live? As you know, the city is one
5 of the most expensive cities in the country.
6 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Well, so we
7 have a study that we're concluding about what
8 we can do. We've been mostly a commuting
9 campus, so that's the challenge for us. The
10 same forces that affect housing for
11 New Yorkers affect our students. So we want
12 to see if we can find a way that we can
13 leverage our real estate, our assets, to be
14 able to provide more funding so that it's far
15 more affordable to many more of our students.
16 And we have a plan coming out, and we're
17 probably going to launch a couple of projects
18 around that.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Great. Happy to
20 be helpful there. Thank you.
21 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:
22 Thank you.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
74
1 Senator John Liu.
2 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair.
3 Good morning, gentlemen.
4 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: Good
5 morning.
6 SENATOR LIU: Thank you for joining
7 us. I've got a few questions and not much
8 time.
9 In the past, has the state funded the
10 negotiation increase -- cost increases? Has
11 the state --
12 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: The
13 labor contracts?
14 SENATOR LIU: Yes.
15 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: I
16 think before 2011 or so, yes.
17 SENATOR LIU: Is that true for SUNY
18 also?
19 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Well, I started
20 last January. So I'll get you a rundown of
21 the history on that.
22 SENATOR LIU: Okay. But in the
23 current budget there's no provision for labor
24 contract cost increases?
75
1 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: That is right.
2 SENATOR LIU: Okay, thank you.
3 This is for Chancellor King.
4 Chancellor King, we had spoken at length in
5 the aftermath of the Supreme Court -- the
6 appalling Supreme Court decision on
7 affirmative action, and we all understand how
8 badly it hurts Black and brown students
9 across the country.
10 But I had asked you about how it hurts
11 yellow students -- I'm sorry, Asian-American
12 students. And you were going to talk about
13 it with the Governor, get more resources, get
14 a better understanding how it may affect
15 Asian-American students. Any progress on
16 that?
17 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Look, our
18 Asian-American percentage has gone up at SUNY
19 over recent years. I have every expectation
20 that it will go up again this year, based on
21 that historical pattern.
22 The board adopted a very clear
23 resolution to help campuses use every
24 available legal tool to continue to advance
76
1 our broader commitment to diversity, looking
2 at first-gen status, low-income status,
3 adversity a student may have overcome in
4 their school or community, if a student is a
5 veteran, if a student is an AmeriCorps alum.
6 So we are hopeful that we can continue
7 to advance our values around diversity. And
8 we'll get you numbers as soon as we have them
9 on this year's incoming class.
10 SENATOR LIU: Yeah, I think it's
11 important because I think the Asian-American
12 community is fast-growing on SUNY campuses --
13 CUNY campuses also, to be sure, but SUNY
14 campuses in particular. And we want to
15 understand what that Supreme Court ruling
16 does for Asian-American students.
17 We've been having this discussion for
18 several months now, and it would be good to
19 have -- to get some hard numbers on progress.
20 Again, what SUNY is doing to make sure that
21 there is continued recruitment of
22 Asian-American students as well as
23 African-American and Latinx students. You
24 know, Black, brown and yellow.
77
1 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah.
2 SENATOR LIU: And also making sure
3 that we understand what the potential impact
4 of that Supreme Court ruling would have on
5 Asian-American students.
6 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yes.
7 SENATOR LIU: Okay. And I appreciate
8 your testimony here. It talks about the
9 continuing Hispanic Leadership Institute, the
10 Black Leadership Institute. I feel -- I feel
11 like I have a complex. Maybe we'll add
12 something else there too.
13 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: I'm hopeful.
14 There is -- as you know, there is a bill and
15 I'm hopeful that there will be an API
16 Leadership Institute.
17 SENATOR LIU: Thank you so much.
18 Felo, you have a very handsome guy
19 right in back of you, Hector Battista. Good
20 to see him as well.
21 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: I am
22 blessed to have an incredible team, yes.
23 (Overtalk.)
24 SENATOR LIU: Sherif's not so bad
78
1 either.
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Compliments
3 will all come later.
4 (Laughter.)
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
6 Assemblywoman Clark.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK: Oh, Chairwoman,
8 it's so great to have you back.
9 I am going to try to be quick with a
10 comment-question-comment in my three minutes.
11 My first comment is I agree on the
12 universal FAFSA. I think it's a great idea.
13 My question is, it's put in as Article VII
14 language with no money coming with it. One
15 of the reasons we know people don't fill out
16 their FAFSA forms is they're complicated,
17 particularly in our urban districts, our
18 rural districts. I think there needs to be a
19 pot of money that goes with it. I don't
20 think every school needs a coordinator. I
21 think we can do this through a grant program.
22 We already have a great organization in
23 Rochester, the Rochester Education
24 Foundation, that supports our city school
79
1 district to do this.
2 But we need to give them more
3 resources if this is going to be a
4 requirement. We want the ones to apply who
5 find it complicated, because they are the
6 ones who are also leaving money on the table.
7 So I really don't think we can just put this
8 in there and walk away. We really need to
9 put some dollars behind it. And I would
10 encourage you to look at that.
11 On that, I'm going to go into TAP a
12 bit. We heard during that TAP hearing that
13 during the four-year from 2018 to 2022, there
14 was a 9 percent decline in enrollment in our
15 SUNY campuses, but a 26 percent decline in
16 TAP. Which means that there are more and
17 more parents and families who are either
18 thinking the minimum award isn't enough, so
19 they're not applying, or they're no longer
20 qualifying because of the income.
21 So in the Governor's budget I see that
22 she moved out 132 million from TAP due to
23 enrollment. I don't understand why we're not
24 using those dollars instead to increase
80
1 income eligibility, to increase minimum
2 awards, to close the gap between SUNY and the
3 maximum award. So why didn't we do that
4 instead of removing it from TAP?
5 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: As I mentioned,
6 I'm very supportive, we're very supportive of
7 trying to address the income threshold for
8 dependent students and independent students.
9 That income threshold at $10,000 has been the
10 same since the mid-'80s. And that is a real
11 challenge for families and students. And
12 they not only make the choice not to come to
13 college, but many of them make the choice to
14 come to college and then struggle with food
15 insecurity, housing insecurity because they
16 don't have the resources.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK: I would agree.
18 And I think if we do move to universal FAFSA,
19 and if that is something we move forward
20 with, TAP also is going to increase. So why
21 we're pulling any money out of it in the
22 budget just doesn't seem to make sense to me.
23 My last thing I will quickly comment
24 on, and maybe -- I know others are going to
81
1 go into it. But on the operating aid last
2 year, you know, we really hoped more of that
3 would go to distressed campuses. I think it
4 was our intent in the Legislature, so we were
5 a little frustrated that it didn't.
6 And also just a quick over -- you
7 know, we heard from our community college,
8 MCC is located in my district, and we were
9 told we're still trying to do a lot to bring
10 all their resources there to do some of the
11 certification programs and workforce
12 training. But they were told they could not
13 apply for capital dollars in the SUNY
14 allotment. I don't know if that's true or
15 not, but I want to make sure they are
16 eligible.
17 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: The process for
18 community college capital, you know, is
19 different because of the community match.
20 On the distressed campuses I'll just
21 say, you know, all of our campuses got
22 double-digit percentage increases. You know,
23 two of our campuses who have the biggest
24 challenges, Fredonia and Potsdam, had over
82
1 20 percent, somewhere between a 20 and
2 25 percent increase in state support last
3 year. They have a structural deficit.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
5 We're going to go to the Senate.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
7 Robert Jackson.
8 SENATOR JACKSON: So good morning to
9 both of you.
10 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: Good
11 morning.
12 SENATOR JACKSON: I've been listening
13 since it began, and let me just tell you, I
14 think that we're in trouble.
15 And my question I guess to you,
16 Chancellor Rodríguez, is if in fact the money
17 doesn't come through from the Legislature and
18 the Governor working together, what's the
19 negative impact that it's going to be on this
20 contract? And who's going to be impacted as
21 far as staff and students? And I know we can
22 go on but try to make it quick.
23 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: I
24 don't know if I can say thank you for your
83
1 question, because obviously those are
2 scenarios that we don't want to contemplate.
3 And we think that we have a path, with the
4 measures that we've taken and the additional
5 support from the Assembly and the Senate,
6 that we have a path forward.
7 But to be direct about your question,
8 85 percent of our costs are individuals,
9 people. Right? So if we -- if we don't get
10 the support for the labor contracts moving
11 forward, which has been the reason for the
12 structural deficit, for the most part -- and
13 enrollment growth is not going to solve the
14 issue. So we'll be talking about having --
15 SENATOR JACKSON: You'll be in default
16 on your agreement, then.
17 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: We
18 will have to sort of go back and think about
19 further staffing, you know, cuts and things
20 of that nature, which would be detrimental to
21 the student experience.
22 SENATOR JACKSON: Chancellor King, so
23 I'm looking here at some of the questions we
24 have from our central staff -- thank you --
84
1 and I'm looking at the funding for the
2 Opportunity Program. And I see all of this
3 red here, meaning cuts in funding for the
4 people that may not have the highest grades,
5 may not -- clearly don't have the income, so
6 this is support so they can get into college.
7 Why are we doing this when we have a
8 $232 billion budget and $20 billion in
9 reserves. And if in fact maybe it's just a
10 game that we're playing and at the end
11 everything's going to work out -- I hope so.
12 Maybe I'll wake up at that point in time and
13 see the light. But right now I don't see it.
14 Give me your point of view.
15 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah, look, I'm
16 very grateful for you being a champion of the
17 EOP. The difference EOP has made for the
18 state is extraordinary. We are very hopeful
19 that the cuts to EOP will be restored in the
20 enacted budget. I'd love to see the EOP
21 program continue to grow.
22 SENATOR JACKSON: Okay, thank you.
23 Downstate is a major issue. And I'm
24 not even from Brooklyn, but I know the impact
85
1 of Downstate from a positive point of view on
2 the community around it, and also for the
3 doctors and all of the physicians coming out
4 of there. And so I got an email update last
5 night as far as how to keep it going, but I
6 hope that's real and not just fluff. I don't
7 need fluff. We need real talk in order to
8 save Downstate Medical Center.
9 And I'm with my colleague Zellnor
10 Myrie, and everybody else, to save it. So --
11 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: I'm committed
12 to saving the hospital. That's what we're
13 trying to achieve.
14 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
16 Assembly.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
18 Assemblywoman Chandler-Waterman.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
20 Thank you, Chancellor. Thank you, Chair.
21 My community members are very
22 concerned -- to go off from the Senator --
23 about the future of Downstate Hospital,
24 especially this new plan. The stakeholders
86
1 were not included in this process. This plan
2 came out before the Department of Health
3 Equity Report was done.
4 It's called a Transformational Plan.
5 Our community sees it as a closure of their
6 beloved hospital. They do not agree with
7 this plan, and I stand with my community. We
8 are clear we need to reimagine how we make
9 SUNY Downstate Hospital more sustainable, and
10 the education part to provide the best for
11 the patients and the education. We
12 understand that. There are many areas of
13 concern.
14 I'll start with two questions. The
15 community involvement and time frame. What
16 is the strategy and methods you'll be using
17 not only to inform the community, but also to
18 make sure they're truly included in the
19 decision process? How many jobs will be
20 lost? How many people are still waiting to
21 receive their permanency after serving seven
22 years, which is tenure or however you may be
23 vested? How many people are still waiting
24 for that?
87
1 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Look, you know,
2 the only thing that would cause closure is
3 the status quo. If there is not an infusion
4 of additional dollars because of the
5 $100 million deficit, we will not be able to
6 continue to operate come summer. And so we
7 need to have in this budget a path forward
8 that addresses the deficit.
9 We also need a path forward that
10 addresses the facility. There's regular
11 flooding. The HVAC is vulnerable to failure,
12 in which case you wouldn't be able to provide
13 services. So we're trying here to preserve
14 the hospital through the capital investment
15 the Governor is making, through the
16 partnership with other hospitals.
17 The community involvement that we've
18 laid out will be to gather community input on
19 the inpatient services, on the outpatient
20 services, and the new $300 million building.
21 How to address the primary care needs.
22 Community input on the Health Disparities
23 Institute that will also be housed in the --
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
88
1 Sorry, what's the time frame for that?
2 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Over the coming
3 weeks and months.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN: And
5 the jobs. And the permanency.
6 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: In terms of
7 jobs, the vast majority of jobs will be
8 preserved. All of the CSEA, PEF and NYSCOPBA
9 employees would have roles either at the
10 dedicated SUNY Downstate space across the
11 street or at one of the other SUNY Downstate
12 facilities. We have one in Bay Ridge, for
13 example.
14 And the only place where there would
15 be a change around the jobs is around some of
16 the UUP members. We tried in this plan to
17 preserve as many jobs as possible. But there
18 would be a --
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN: No
20 jobs lost.
21 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: There would be
22 a 10 to 20 percent loss for UUP.
23 But we're in the midst of a healthcare
24 workforce shortage. There will be --
89
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN: And
2 the permanency?
3 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: -- roles for
4 many folks potentially at other SUNY
5 hospitals, roles at other hospitals in
6 Central Brooklyn. And we want to work with
7 folks to place every person.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
9 We're going to go to the Senate.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
11 Senator Lea Webb.
12 SENATOR WEBB: Good morning to both
13 chancellors.
14 I'm just going to ask my questions as
15 I have limited time.
16 So this is for Chancellor King. The
17 Legislature fought to increase operating aid
18 to SUNY by $163 million last year. Myself,
19 along with other champions, really pushed for
20 it. My question is, with that level of
21 historic funding, why are we still seeing
22 campuses closing and faculty being laid off?
23 And how were those funds distributed?
24 And then my next question pertains to
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1 the community colleges. We know there was a
2 big campaign -- again, a lot of us supported
3 it -- the "floor plus four." The four didn't
4 happen. And so in looking ahead at this
5 year's budget, we know that our community
6 colleges still need significant operational
7 funding. There's significant disparities
8 there between our two-year and four-year
9 colleges. My question is, what is the plan
10 for that?
11 And then my last question goes to the
12 concern that I'm hearing with respect to
13 communication around our SUNY campuses,
14 specifically with Downstate and Upstate. We
15 know that these facilities provide
16 significant care, high-needs care. And so I
17 am concerned that we're not getting
18 information in ways that can be helpful as
19 legislators in making decisions.
20 So those are my three questions.
21 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: So in terms of
22 the 163 million, for which we are very
23 grateful, we distribute really in two ways.
24 One, every state-operated campus saw a
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1 double-digit percentage increase in funding.
2 Second, we were able to commit resources to
3 address mental health needs across the
4 state-operated campuses, supports for
5 students with disabilities, expanding
6 internships, research -- based on the
7 principle that all of our campuses have needs
8 and opportunities for growth. And the net
9 result was this past fall we had over 700 new
10 faculty hires across our campuses. So we're
11 leveraging those dollars to grow the system.
12 That said, we have campuses that over
13 a 10-year period saw a 40 percent decline in
14 enrollment, or more -- in particular, Potsdam
15 and Fredonia. And so even with a
16 double-digit percentage increase in funding,
17 they still have a structural deficit because
18 they haven't adjusted their programming to
19 match being a much smaller campus. You know,
20 with Potsdam we're talking about going from
21 4,000 to about 2500. They have buildings
22 that are empty that they're paying to heat.
23 So they really have a need to now adjust to
24 being a 2500-student campus.
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1 But we think this -- the plan the
2 president has set out there will make them a
3 sustainable 2500-student campus. We're not
4 closing any campuses. We are committed to
5 all 64 of our institutions and trying to make
6 sure they have the resources to invest in
7 areas of growing student demand.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
9 Assembly.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
11 Dilan.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Thank you, Madam
13 Chair.
14 I just have a brief question for
15 Chancellor Matos. Some of my colleagues have
16 talked about your personnel issues, and I see
17 in your budget your fringe costs are going
18 up, and those have been budgeted. They've
19 touched around the contract negotiations, but
20 I think no one's asked directly: How much
21 are you spending on your labor contracts
22 throughout all the labor unions that CUNY
23 serves at this moment?
24 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: So
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1 the budget request that we have is -- and I
2 will need -- 184 million to be able to cover
3 the labor costs for last year and this year,
4 because the contract had lapsed. Right? And
5 that's about 41 million for the classified
6 staff and the rest for the Professional Staff
7 Congress.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Okay. And
9 obviously you expect it to go up after this
10 year.
11 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: Yes.
12 And that funding, as I said, thank you, is
13 indispensable.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Okay. And thank
15 you.
16 And for Chancellor King -- and I do
17 want to thank my colleagues who are not from
18 Brooklyn for raising SUNY Downstate. I'll
19 take a different approach in the questioning.
20 Is your main reason for the changes at
21 the facility -- the operating I know is a
22 challenge. Is the main hurdle the capital
23 from the facility?
24 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: It's really
94
1 both. Because of the $100 million deficit,
2 we have to have a solution in this budget to
3 continue to operate.
4 But the facility challenges are
5 significant. I was talking to a doctor
6 recently at Downstate who was saying -- you
7 know, it had been cold the past few days and
8 she was worried that the pipes would burst
9 again and make it impossible to provide
10 services in their area of the hospital.
11 So we've got to address the facility.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: I guess you've
13 said privately, but what's the cost on the
14 capital side to renovate in place as opposed
15 to new construction?
16 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah. I mean,
17 to construct a similarly sized facility new
18 we project would be about $3 billion, based
19 on the comparables.
20 To try to do that kind of renovation
21 in the existing building would be even more
22 expensive -- probably on the order of
23 $4 billion. And you're talking about years.
24 I mean, eight to 10 years for a new building.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: My final question
2 is: Have you reached out to city and federal
3 partners on the capital side to see if they
4 could be of assistance?
5 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: We continue to
6 talk with city and federal officials about
7 this plan, and certainly we would love to
8 have additional capital support. I think one
9 of the challenges is in that service area
10 there are about 1500 beds, of which about 700
11 are in regular use. And so one of the
12 hurdles to overcome is figuring out --
13 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: The vacancy rate
14 of it?
15 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah, the
16 vacancy rate, exactly. Is figuring out how
17 to fit this plan into a larger plan for
18 Central Brooklyn.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Thank you,
20 Madam Chair.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: To the Senate.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
23 much.
24 Senator Oberacker.
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1 SENATOR OBERACKER: Thank you,
2 Madam Chair.
3 And good morning, Chancellors.
4 PANELISTS: Good morning.
5 SENATOR OBERACKER: So I am a product
6 of SUNY. And having eight SUNY campuses in
7 my district, it's a very important footprint,
8 of course, for that.
9 Chancellor King, you said in your
10 testimony there was 163 million for operating
11 support, 75 million for I believe it was
12 transformational programming, and then 54
13 million for a multiyear commitment for
14 operating.
15 So the question is, will any of that
16 funding be channeled potentially to help in
17 reducing tuition costs?
18 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Right now our
19 budget model assumes maintaining our current
20 tuition costs.
21 You know, for our students, about
22 52 percent of our in-state students go
23 tuition-free now. So these resources are
24 being deployed to support faculty and support
97
1 services for our students. Our tuition is
2 still quite a bit lower than many of our peer
3 institutions.
4 But we're very committed to the
5 principle of affordability and would love to
6 work with all of you on TAP reform and other
7 strategies to ensure affordability.
8 SENATOR OBERACKER: Great. Thank you
9 for that.
10 My next question. So in recent years
11 additional operating support has been
12 provided to SUNY and CUNY. Have those
13 resources, from your perspective, been
14 distributed to campuses struggling with
15 budget deficits?
16 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah. Yes.
17 So, you know, all of our campuses last year
18 got a double-digit percentage increase. You
19 know, the two campuses I mentioned earlier,
20 Potsdam and Fredonia, got more than a
21 20 percent increase in state aid last year.
22 But the challenges at some of our
23 campuses where they've lost a lot of
24 enrollment, they really have to adjust to
98
1 being a smaller campus going forward in order
2 to be fiscally responsible. And that's
3 really what we're trying to achieve.
4 SENATOR OBERACKER: And
5 Chancellor King, we've had some discussions
6 on green energy projects and some potential
7 there. I am again offering my 51st Senate
8 District as a grounds of potential testing of
9 those policies and procedures. So please
10 utilize it if and when you can.
11 And Madam Chair, I will cede back my
12 27 seconds. Thank you.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 Assembly.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
16 Assemblyman Flood.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN FLOOD: Thank you.
18 This is for Dr. -- Chancellor King, I
19 apologize. We spoke briefly about
20 potentially leasing lands on properties
21 specifically on Farmingdale State and
22 Stony Brook. Did either President McInnis or
23 President Nader specifically ask to have the
24 properties there leased?
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1 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: The exact
2 structure is still to be determined. But
3 both campuses are interested in the prospect
4 of additional housing, particularly -- I'll
5 give you an example. President Nader worries
6 a lot about how difficult it is for faculty
7 members to find housing they can afford on
8 Long Island. And so he's hopeful that if
9 there's a housing project on the Farmingdale
10 campus, it will create the opportunity for
11 faculty housing.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN FLOOD: Okay. Now, has
13 there been any community engagement
14 specifically in the Stony Brook area? Just
15 as -- as Stony Brook resides solely within my
16 district, there is a tenuous relationship
17 between the university and the community at
18 best. I've had many conversations with
19 Dr. McInnis and her staff about exploring
20 and, you know, opening up more of the campus
21 to the community and making a more open
22 community, I guess, between them.
23 So has there been any engagement with
24 the communities?
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1 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: My
2 understanding is this is really the start of
3 a process to potentially explore the possible
4 development of housing. There's certainly
5 been conversations with the community about
6 the need for additional housing, including
7 for faculty and staff.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN FLOOD: I believe, quite
9 frankly, if it was faculty and staff, that
10 that wouldn't be an issue. But is there any
11 restrictions on who could be coming?
12 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: At this point,
13 this is early days of the project and just
14 the beginning of a conversation about the
15 nature of the project. But the Governor
16 wanted, I think, to highlight both campuses
17 as places where there's the potential for
18 housing.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN FLOOD: And I can assure
20 you that the community at least in
21 Stony Brook does not want to add more
22 housing, specifically at least in rentals.
23 They get upset already by the amount of
24 Stony Brook students that fill out into the
101
1 neighborhood. Some of it's not necessarily,
2 you know, logical, but there's still a lot of
3 community outcry over it.
4 But just -- I don't have a whole lot
5 of time left. Has there been any discussion
6 on, you know, as these -- I know it's early
7 discussions -- on what potential security
8 costs could be with, you know, renting out
9 part of this -- the facility to tenants? And
10 what would be addressed to keep students
11 safe?
12 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: You know, look,
13 as I mentioned, our students' safety is a top
14 priority for us. This is a very early-stage
15 conversation, but that's certainly an issue
16 that we'll want to address as either of these
17 projects moves forward.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN FLOOD: Okay. Thank you.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
21 Senator Chen {sic}.
22 SENATOR CHU: Thank you, Chair. It's
23 Chu. Don't worry.
24 Good morning, Chancellors --
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1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm so sorry --
2 SENATOR CHU: Don't worry.
3 Good morning, Chancellors. With my
4 limited time, I need this straightened for
5 SUNY Downstate.
6 Chancellor King, would you be able to
7 help us understand the impact up to
8 20 percent of the staffing rearrangement? I
9 need to humanize this. Twenty percent,
10 10 percent, it's a number. What positions,
11 what job titles we're talking about? Those
12 positions, they are facing to lose their
13 years of building a pension, and they are
14 foreseeing to find jobs somewhere else.
15 Could you tell us the impact? What
16 are those job positions, what titles?
17 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah. The
18 specific titles and positions will be
19 determined over time through our
20 conversations with faculty and staff at
21 downstate as well as with H+H. In some cases
22 it will be doctors who currently are faculty
23 members at SUNY Downstate part of the time,
24 and part of the time their affiliation is
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1 with SUNY Downstate. Some of those doctors
2 at the end of this process may change their
3 affiliation, whether that's to Kings County
4 or to Maimonides or to another hospital.
5 There's the potential, as we share
6 space with Kings County, that there would be
7 opportunities for shared services, and so
8 that may -- that may result in some positions
9 being duplicated, and so adjustments would
10 need to be made. We certainly have other
11 roles at other SUNY hospitals, Stony Brook
12 among them.
13 We want to work with UUP. Remember,
14 it's 10 to 20 percent of the UUP members at
15 the hospital. So it's not of the total. You
16 know, so we're talking about somewhere on the
17 order of 175 to 375 folks. We want to work
18 with UUP member by member to figure out how
19 we mitigate the disruption for folks, whether
20 that's on benefits issues, transportation
21 issues, relocation issues.
22 But we want to minimize the impact,
23 but it will be much -- I can say this. The
24 impact will be much less than if we get --
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1 SENATOR CHU: Thank you.
2 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: -- to summer
3 without money to continue to operate and
4 there are no jobs.
5 SENATOR CHU: Thank you. I have
6 another question. I have another question.
7 Thirty seconds, real quick.
8 About the neighboring hospitals, like
9 Maimonides, you mentioned that they are in
10 the 85 or 70 percent capacity. What's the
11 conversation -- are they able to absorb on
12 the patient side the potential increase of
13 patients? About their ER volume, are they
14 able to adjust, or the certified beds?
15 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah, so we're
16 in conversation with Kings County and
17 Maimonides about which services -- the bulk
18 of the inpatient services would go to the
19 dedicated Downstate space collocated with
20 Kings County.
21 But the -- so the exact impact on
22 Maimonides will be determined in the coming
23 weeks. But they already partner with us very
24 closely. Many of our doctors work there as
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1 well as at Downstate.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 We go to Assemblyman Gray.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN GRAY: Thank you very
6 much.
7 Chancellors, thank you for coming.
8 I'm going to roll through things for
9 Chancellor King and we'll be succinct, if we
10 can.
11 So do we -- inventory of buildings
12 that are fallow on SUNY state-operated -- or
13 all SUNY campuses, do we have a handle on
14 that? Do we know what that is right now of,
15 you know, non-performing assets? Do we know
16 what the burden is to the individuals by
17 campus? Do we know also electrification? Is
18 that included -- are SUNY campuses including
19 that in their long-range plans? And is that
20 part of the $10 billion deficit? Is there
21 any -- is there any idea of taking over some
22 of these fallow structures so SUNY campuses
23 can focus on their mission, which is
24 educating students, educating young adults
106
1 and not necessarily worrying about empty
2 structures?
3 And -- so I'm going to cover a lot
4 here. So I have, as you know, five colleges,
5 higher education, right, between private and
6 SUNY. And in St. Lawrence County, Potsdam,
7 we have both a college that's on the brink
8 and we have potential for a prison closure.
9 Right?
10 So the SUNY system in St. Lawrence
11 County represents about 1500 jobs, right,
12 $93 million in payroll. Prisons represent
13 300 jobs, $25 million in payroll. I've got a
14 community that sits here with tremendous
15 uncertainty because of prison closures and
16 the uncertainty of college campuses. So are
17 we committed to making sure that these
18 college campuses do not fail?
19 And then community colleges, third,
20 third and a third, my colleague mentioned it
21 earlier. You know, the state is at
22 428 million in funding, the students are at
23 580 million, and counties are at 525. Is
24 there a plan to bring that into a third,
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1 third, and third? Thank you.
2 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Thanks for
3 those questions, and thanks for joining me on
4 some of the campus visits.
5 On the first point around buildings,
6 we should have a follow-up meeting and we can
7 talk through our kind of inventory. You
8 know, there are certainly campuses like a
9 Potsdam where there are buildings that, given
10 the reduced enrollment, they're just not in
11 use. And I think the challenge for those
12 campuses, as you described, is they're
13 spending money to heat them, to preserve
14 them, but there's no students inside. And so
15 we've really got to tackle that. And so I'd
16 love to work with you on that.
17 In terms of our plans for
18 electrification, look, we want to get towards
19 net-zero and help the state accomplish its
20 goals. We have 40 percent of the state's
21 public buildings. It will take investment
22 over time. That is not factored in. The
23 deficit I was describing over a 10-year
24 period is really just about operating costs.
108
1 But there is that capital need.
2 On Potsdam, we are committed to
3 Potsdam's long-term success. And the plan in
4 place there is designed to ensure its
5 long-term success.
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
7 To the Senate.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator O'Mara,
9 ranker.
10 SENATOR O'MARA: Good morning. Thank
11 you, gentlemen, for being here.
12 I just want to follow up on that
13 question because I don't think we got a
14 direct answer on the community colleges and
15 the support of a third, a third, a third.
16 It's my understanding that the state share of
17 their third is currently close to
18 $100 million less than what the counties are
19 contributing toward community colleges.
20 Can you address that?
21 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: This is exactly
22 the reason for the proposal from the
23 community college presidents for a
24 $97 million increase in operating support,
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1 focused on workforce development because
2 that's an area for growth.
3 At the same time, I think one has to
4 balance that with the reality that the
5 community college funding floor is providing
6 an additional $85 million that wouldn't be
7 there if you ran the formula just based on
8 enrollment. So I do think the state's making
9 an important investment with the floor that
10 we want to make sure that's preserved, and
11 look forward to talking further about ways to
12 move towards investing in workforce
13 development to increase the state's support.
14 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you. And I
15 agree with you on the importance of the
16 floor, and it's equally important for our
17 secondary education system to have that
18 floor, which has been taken away from them in
19 this year's budget. So I'm glad you're
20 getting it, and we're going to work like hell
21 to make sure that our secondary education
22 gets that as well.
23 On workforce development -- and I'm a
24 strong proponent of that, and I applaud the
110
1 efforts of CUNY and SUNY and the community
2 colleges in their efforts on that. What
3 progress is being made -- you know, we have
4 ever-changing workforce needs, so curriculum
5 and programs are always changing. And, you
6 know, I know government moves slow; academia
7 moves even slower.
8 What is going on to maybe streamline
9 the process of getting programs approved so
10 that when they're needed we can get these
11 students right in the pipeline?
12 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah, we have
13 significantly accelerated the
14 program-approval process at SUNY just over
15 the year that I've been here. I'd also say
16 we are growing microcredentials, which were
17 mentioned earlier, very quickly. I think
18 we're at 600 microcredentials now. We have
19 about 280 programs, larger microcredential
20 programs that are going to be eligible for
21 the TAP for non-credit workforce development
22 programs across more than 30 campuses.
23 So we've got a lot of momentum on the
24 workforce development side. Green jobs,
111
1 semiconductor industry, nursing and allied
2 health. And I think our campuses would say
3 they would love more resources to try to grow
4 those more quickly.
5 For example, last year the simulation
6 bill allowed 30 percent of nursing hours to
7 be done through simulation. But now we have
8 to invest in simulation labs, training of
9 staff, the lifelike mannequins that are used
10 in those simulation labs. And so resources
11 to support those things would help us fulfill
12 our workforce development mission.
13 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: Can
14 I add two things on the green side?
15 SENATOR O'MARA: Yeah.
16 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:
17 Quickly. (A), we -- for example, to your
18 point, we've been doing market analysis to be
19 able to determine any new programs that come
20 on board, right, so we have data about what
21 the markets need. Particularly in the online
22 space, because we don't want to have
23 duplication and we want to have programs that
24 are in high demand.
112
1 And we began a program with our
2 community colleges of looking at our applied
3 associate's degrees, right, which are the
4 ones that you're supposed to have two years
5 and now transfer, so then they have deeper
6 partnerships with industry and a lot more
7 embedded apprenticeships, right, so we take a
8 look -- so what we're saying is this two-year
9 program will lead to a job that we can follow
10 up with data and partnerships.
11 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you for that.
12 And I agree with that.
13 On financial support for students in
14 these microcredential programs or other
15 workforce-type programs that aren't
16 degree-ending -- and certainly I agree with
17 you, we want to encourage students to move on
18 beyond that certificate to get that degree.
19 It's certainly better for them in the long
20 run. And I understand there's some efforts
21 going on federally right now to get some
22 Pell Grant availability to these programs.
23 Is there room for us in New York where
24 we should be expanding our financial
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1 assistance for those types of programs that
2 aren't degree programs?
3 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Absolutely. I
4 mean, you know, the TAP for non-credit
5 workforce programs is a great first step.
6 That's something we'd love to grow over time,
7 and we'd love to be able to provide more
8 assistance to those students as they move
9 into degree programs. One of the things
10 we're doing with that initiative is saying
11 the work that is being done in that
12 non-credit program, if they come into a
13 degree program, will count for credits and
14 get them started on their path to a degree.
15 I'm very hopeful about the federal
16 short-term Pell. It has bipartisan support.
17 I'm hopeful that we see that soon.
18 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
20 Assemblyman Eachus.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Thank you,
22 Madam Chair. And welcome back.
23 A lot has already been covered, but
24 there's a few things that I want to say. The
114
1 first thing I want to say is I think you two
2 are doing a great job. The buildings did not
3 start falling apart just this last year,
4 okay? The debt you inherited when you came
5 into this position are the things that we are
6 all talking about now. So we need to
7 understand that that's the truth.
8 It was mentioned just recently --
9 because I was going to disagree with one of
10 my colleagues -- we are not fulfilling our
11 obligation as a state with the one-third
12 funding. We are absolutely not. And I will
13 not be pleased and satisfied until the state
14 picks up all the costs. That's what I would
15 be looking for.
16 I want to thank you for keeping the
17 tuition rates flat. That certainly is a big
18 thing. However, as we know, the fees have
19 gone up. And what I would like you -- and I
20 know you took care of the fees for the
21 graduate students. Thank you for that. But
22 what I'd like you to remember is that the
23 fees are very onerous, especially for the
24 high-need areas -- when you're talking about
115
1 science, the sciences, you're talking about
2 nursing and so on like that. So, you know,
3 those are the people that are affected by it.
4 And I know that there's no answer for
5 it unless we give you a huge influx of money.
6 But we need to keep that in mind.
7 Workforce development was just
8 mentioned. I am for all workforce
9 development revenue going into our community
10 colleges especially, because you have the
11 accounting system that can tell us whether
12 our goals are met with that money and if we
13 are achieving those and what the real
14 progress is. So that's why -- and we're not
15 hearing that, at least I'm not at this point
16 and all.
17 And then the last thing that I'd like
18 to ask of you is it was mentioned and it has
19 been talked about, affordable housing, and
20 you said that there was a list and so on like
21 that. If that list could be sent to the
22 chairs, who could distribute it to us so that
23 we would know whether some of our campuses
24 are going to be affected by that or not.
116
1 So there's not really a question
2 there, just a couple of statements.
3 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: We'll follow up
4 on the housing point. And really appreciate
5 your support on the workforce development
6 funding at community colleges.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Thank you.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. To
9 the --
10 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: I --
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Oh, I'm sorry.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: He has time left,
13 if you want to tell us something.
14 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: All
15 I wanted to say, because it's a theme that
16 has come up in a couple of the commentaries
17 about enrollment and community colleges. I
18 think that not having a standard method of
19 supporting early colleges in terms of a
20 funding formula for students to be able to do
21 that is one thing in the state that we need
22 to look at. Because if we had a sustainable
23 path for that, the main beneficiaries of that
24 enrollment and those funds will be the
117
1 community colleges.
2 So I think that's another thing that
3 we need to put into the mix as we think about
4 funding and about the pipeline from K-12 to
5 our campuses.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
7 I think I am the last Senator, except
8 for Senator Stavisky's second round.
9 I want to just follow up on
10 Assemblymember Gray's point. So for years
11 I've often said we would be much better off
12 investing our money in colleges than prisons
13 because some might drop out, but you have a
14 much less recidivism rate when you have a
15 higher education and more opportunity.
16 Do either of your universities track
17 how many students actually do have criminal
18 histories? And is there any way to see
19 whether in fact I'm right, college actually
20 is a very effective model for helping people
21 avoid lives of crime?
22 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: I don't know
23 that we track it that way.
24 I will say that SUNY is the largest
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1 provider of higher education in prisons in
2 New York State. And those programs -- I'd
3 love for you to join me at one of those
4 graduations. They are changing people's
5 lives. And so for so many students -- you
6 know, when I was in the Obama administration
7 and we launched Second Chance Pell to allow
8 Pell Grants to be used for folks who are
9 incarcerated, we called it the Second Chance
10 Pell Program to emphasize the second chances.
11 But when you talk to the folks, they
12 often didn't have a first chance. And they
13 will describe how the educational experience
14 they are having while in prison is the first
15 time they've had a real relationship with a
16 faculty member where they've felt fully
17 engaged intellectually. And the recidivism
18 rate for folks who get higher education while
19 in prison is dramatically lower.
20 And so we need to do more of that.
21 The restoration of TAP for incarcerated
22 students was a very helpful step. And now
23 with Pell restoration, I think we have a
24 chance to even grow our programs further.
119
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And CUNY?
2 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: I
3 don't know that we -- I mean, I will go
4 check, do we track it in the way that you
5 described.
6 One of the great things to be in
7 higher ed is that if we have a question we
8 want answered, we have great faculty that can
9 figure out a way which we can give you a
10 response to the question that you're
11 addressing about that return on investment,
12 right, that you posed. So thank you for that
13 very thoughtful question.
14 And I just want to echo that on our
15 end too -- and particularly I think at CUNY
16 the John Jay College of Criminal Justice has
17 taken the lead to be working more closely
18 with programs in the prison system. So happy
19 to report and give you some information about
20 that.
21 But also happy to put some of the
22 great minds that we have on both our campuses
23 to get a sense of the question you're asking.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
120
1 So for the SUNY chancellor, obviously
2 both houses of the Legislature are very
3 concerned about the SUNY Downstate storyline.
4 And I know that I had asked the mayor's
5 people when they were up what their
6 understanding of this was and the impact on
7 an H+H hospital or other hospitals in
8 Brooklyn, or even the -- what I felt is the
9 lack of regional planning for hospital care
10 in the entire City of New York.
11 I think what this Legislature needs to
12 see are actually memorandums of understanding
13 between what is expected of the H + H system
14 as part of this deal so we actually can see
15 this is what has been committed, this is what
16 we can hold people accountable for.
17 My staff responded to Gustavo and I
18 after he asked some questions that we can't
19 actually find where that capital money is in
20 the budget. So we also think we need much
21 more specifics about the commitment in the
22 Governor's budget of this money. I don't
23 know if it's supposed to be coming out of
24 SUNY capital or some other capital. But we
121
1 really feel we need to understand because,
2 you know, we just can't operate -- as you've
3 heard, people don't feel that you've spoken
4 enough with the community and with the people
5 who should be at the table.
6 But from my perspective it's, okay,
7 like where's the detail, where's the
8 confirmations? And it's not uncommon for
9 government to create memorandas of
10 understanding and everybody signs it and
11 everybody looks at it and goes, okay, this is
12 the deal for X number of years and this is
13 what's going to happen. And I think that
14 that is at minimum what the representatives
15 particularly from Brooklyn need.
16 But I'll tell you, you know, on
17 Manhattan we're concerned about Brooklyn
18 hospitals closing because it turns out, in
19 the new recent Department of Health report,
20 in various categories almost 50 percent of
21 the people who live in Brooklyn come to
22 Manhattan for hospital care.
23 So if we've got Mount Sinai
24 Beth Israel closing as the largest, most
122
1 southern hospital in Manhattan -- which is
2 right on the L line and so is a direct path
3 for Brooklyn patients -- so if that's
4 closing -- and we're trying to stop that from
5 happening, but I don't know that we'll be
6 successful -- then that's got an impact. So
7 all cross-over impact.
8 So I just feel like everybody needs to
9 see exactly what the deals are going to be
10 and what's the impact going to be, and be
11 able to evaluate that in the context of the
12 larger questions of hospital care, access to
13 hospital care, who, what, where, why. So I
14 would really like this. And, you know, I
15 know again from just Manhattan,
16 Bellevue Hospital knows it's going to have an
17 enormous impact if we close Mount Sinai
18 Beth Israel. And I think they really
19 recently said that the NYU, Langone and
20 Bellevue hospitals are already overwhelmed in
21 their ICUs and their EDs. And so, you know,
22 it's like chess pieces on the chessboard.
23 They all interconnect. So we're concerned
24 about that.
123
1 So every time there's a Governor and
2 they cut the Opportunity Programs when the
3 Legislature puts the money back, both
4 chancellors say we love those programs. But
5 do you? I mean, would you ever put your own
6 money in? Are these working? Or are we all
7 just under the illusion that they're working
8 and then we put the money back?
9 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Let me tackle
10 that Downstate point. So yes, we look
11 forward to having memorandums of agreement
12 with Health + Hospitals specifying the exact
13 inpatient service plan and likely something
14 similar with other partner hospitals. But
15 that's all work ahead of us, based on
16 community input.
17 The goal that we had and the Governor
18 had was to set out a set of principles around
19 the $300 million capital investment and --
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay, let's skip
21 the SUNY Downstate because I only have three
22 minutes left.
23 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Okay. And then
24 on the -- on EOP, yes, the programs are
124
1 working. Senator Jackson is an example. The
2 programs are working and have been for a long
3 time.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Jackson
5 would be working no matter what the --
6 (Overtalk; laughter.)
7 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Fair enough.
8 Fair enough. But he's an example of what we
9 hope for from the EOP programs.
10 You know, since I've arrived we've
11 been trying to grow the EOP program across
12 SUNY, and we saw a significant increase this
13 year; hope to see another in the coming year.
14 We are very supportive and are very eager to
15 see additional resources there.
16 And we have, over time, tried to move
17 resources to support EOP programs and are
18 eager to see them continue to grow.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: CUNY?
20 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:
21 Well, they're equally an important part of
22 our campus life. We are actually undergoing
23 a review of those programs, looking at their
24 outcomes and how they perform over time and
125
1 how they compare with some of the other
2 programs that we have. Again, to be able to
3 maximize learning from all our programs and
4 stretch every dollar to support more students
5 in a systemic way.
6 And kudos to our University Provost
7 Wendy Hensel, who's leading that process
8 moving forward.
9 And we also try to do specific
10 investments. We started, for example --
11 we're going to have a Summer STEM Academy.
12 We talk about not having enough women, poor,
13 minority students taking advantage of STEM
14 fields. These programs are exactly where
15 those students are. And we are now being
16 intentional about creating programs early on
17 that are targeted for some of the areas where
18 we want to see that larger level of
19 representation. So that's one of the things
20 that we're doing with those dollars.
21 So the short answer to your question
22 is -- and I know the commitment from
23 Chancellor King. I think that we embrace
24 them. They're a key part of our ecosystem.
126
1 And we keep finding different ways to
2 leverage that funding to even get better
3 results.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
5 Obviously you won't have them today;
6 we haven't seen financial reports on the
7 SUNY Foundation or the CUNY Foundation in
8 quite a while, according to staff. I would
9 like to get them on both of those, see where
10 the money is and what it's being spent on.
11 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: Yup.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And for some
13 reason SUNY and CUNY are almost the only
14 state-funded entities where the salaries of
15 all your staff aren't posted somewhere. Or
16 is it just posted somewhere where I'm not
17 finding it?
18 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:
19 Well, people have a way of finding what my
20 salary is. Right? So --
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: No, not you
22 personally, but everyone.
23 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: I'll
24 double-check with my team about that and
127
1 we'll get back to you. And clearly there's a
2 way that -- I guess your point is about
3 transparencies, right? So we'll take a look
4 at that and if it's not --
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yeah. I mean,
6 there's a state website where you can look at
7 any state agency, any village or county,
8 school district, BOCES -- everything except
9 SUNY and CUNY. I couldn't find them on it.
10 So I think -- frankly, I think you should be
11 on it, but I'll take it in any form, I guess.
12 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: So
13 the phenomenal people that know more about
14 these things than I do tell me that in our
15 case it's there. So we'll make sure that you
16 get the link.
17 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah, we'll
18 follow up with you.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
20 Perfect timing. Thank you very much.
21 Assembly.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
23 Assemblywoman Simon.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
128
1 Thank you both for your testimony.
2 So first directed to CUNY. You know,
3 microcredentials are increasingly attractive
4 to students and address workforce shortages.
5 And you have like the world's most creative
6 programming guy in President Hotzler at
7 City Tech. And so I just want to encourage
8 CUNY to expand what it is they're doing and
9 work closely with that.
10 The CUNY Reading Corps, which helps to
11 lay the foundation for kids' reading and
12 provides field experience to our education
13 students, I would really love to see that
14 expanded. Love to see that marketed more.
15 It really is part of the wave of the future.
16 And I thank you both for your engagement with
17 the science of reading and moving New York
18 forward on that regard.
19 SUNY, I have -- obviously Downstate is
20 the issue of the day. So there are two major
21 concerns that I've sort of heard from folks.
22 One is that in your effort to preserve
23 the Health Sciences Center, we really hear
24 that operating a largely ambulatory care
129
1 facility without an inpatient hospital is a
2 recipe for disaster. I think you really need
3 to look carefully at that and address that
4 issue.
5 You know, there's a real emphasis on
6 maternal and infant mortality, and Downstate
7 has the only Level IV NICU in the entire
8 borough. And as you know, there's
9 2.6 million people in Brooklyn. This is
10 critical for the moms throughout Brooklyn,
11 particularly moms of color. And then
12 obviously the community engagement and
13 impacts on the community's health, which I
14 think really needs to be assessed through a
15 really robust public engagement process. And
16 I think we all stand ready to help facilitate
17 that, to figure out what is that path
18 forward. You have a real problem, you need
19 to do something. What we do and how we do it
20 I think is critical to its success.
21 And then just to both of you, if I
22 could just encourage everybody to support
23 more money in the budget for disability
24 accommodations for your students.
130
1 Thank you.
2 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: So
3 let me --
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Yeah, please.
5 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: So,
6 A, we make it easy for all the elected
7 officials to know what our key asks are.
8 It's called the Gold Sheet. If you don't
9 have one, make sure you get one by the end of
10 the session. And you will see,
11 Assemblywoman Simon, that one of our top
12 priorities is increased resources for
13 students with disabilities in terms of the
14 training, staffing, the technology, other
15 support and adaptive services that are
16 needed.
17 We'll be making a very comprehensive
18 attempt at addressing this in ways that were
19 not done before. New faculty are getting
20 orientation about this. We train all the
21 staff in our centers. So we're making a big,
22 big push to get state-of-the-art support in
23 that arena.
24 We need additional support, and we're
131
1 asking for 4.7 in addition to do that.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
3 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Quickly I'll
4 just say all inpatient services will
5 continue. And outpatient services will be
6 expanded.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
10 Chair Toby Stavisky.
11 SENATOR STAVISKY: There we go.
12 First, Chancellor Matos Rodríguez --
13 (holding up document) Senator Chu has hers --
14 we study these.
15 And Chancellor King, I thank you for
16 your comments about the non-degree-granting
17 programs. I think that's extremely
18 important.
19 And thank you for mentioning my
20 legislation for the simulation. Hopefully
21 the State Education Department has issued the
22 rules and regulations and are reviewing the
23 programs at the various nursing schools in
24 the state.
132
1 Let me just ask a couple of questions
2 I did not have a chance to ask.
3 We allowed both SUNY and CUNY last
4 year to increase tuition for out-of-state
5 students. Has that affected enrollment at
6 either of your institutions? First,
7 Chancellor King, I guess, has the larger
8 campuses -- more campuses.
9 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah,
10 enrollment is up across the board and in
11 every sector. I'll check on the -- and get
12 back to you on the number of out-of-state
13 students and how that compares to last year.
14 SENATOR STAVISKY: Yeah, thank you.
15 And the same with --
16 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: We
17 did not raise tuition for out-of-state
18 students, so I can get you that data. We're
19 looking at that issue year to year. But I
20 can get you the information.
21 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you. No, it
22 was an option, a local option, so to speak.
23 Second question, on the community
24 colleges. Can you tell us the effect of
133
1 changing the base year for calculating the
2 floor? Will that have any kind of effect on
3 the amount you receive? Chancellor Matos
4 Rodríguez or Chancellor King or both.
5 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:
6 We're here trying to go -- I mean, I guess,
7 A, it depends on what year you select, right,
8 in terms of the formula.
9 SENATOR STAVISKY: The Governor
10 selected one. Would you suggest changing it
11 to make it more --
12 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: I'll get back
13 to you on what the implications would be of
14 changing the year. I do know that the floor
15 for this year preserves $85 million that
16 would otherwise be lost.
17 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: Yes,
18 it provides incredible stability at a time
19 when we're still -- I mean, enrollment is
20 beginning to pick up, but I think we want to
21 make sure that if we're going to pivot in
22 terms of the way that we're funding things,
23 that we do it at a time when we feel that
24 there's the largest level of stability
134
1 possible.
2 SENATOR STAVISKY: Yeah. And real
3 quick, I know you don't have the answer, but
4 I had legislation signed last year by the
5 Governor requiring campuses to report hate
6 crimes. And if you would check your
7 websites, I would appreciate it. The CUNY
8 one was a little confusing.
9 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: You
10 mean the central office one, or one of the
11 campuses one?
12 SENATOR STAVISKY: It should be by
13 campus. I found it was really CUNY-wide.
14 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:
15 Okay, we'll look into that. But we issued
16 guidance right after the law came --
17 SENATOR STAVISKY: I know the
18 guidance. I'm talking about the actual
19 attacks.
20 Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Thank you, Toby.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
24 Assemblywoman Hyndman.
135
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Good morning.
2 It's still morning. Thank you both for being
3 here. A lot of my questions have been asked
4 by colleagues, and I do support the
5 assistance of SUNY Downstate.
6 So my question is regarding vacancies
7 in the presidential positions at all of the
8 CUNY and SUNY campuses, and how do you
9 attract great presidents with declining
10 enrollment, major capital needs? And we're
11 also dealing with a heavily politicized
12 environment when it comes to college
13 presidents.
14 So for both of you, how do you attract
15 great talent to the State of New York?
16 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: So I
17 guess the subtext of your question is that
18 this is a time when being a campus president
19 doesn't seem to be an extremely rewarding
20 proposition. And it's clearly a challenging
21 position. But this is clearly a privilege.
22 What we get to do, to serve in this capacity
23 is a privilege. We go to bed at night
24 knowing that we transform people's lives all
136
1 across the state, and that's not a gift or a
2 privilege that everybody has.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Chancellor
4 Matos Rodríguez, I will say that even, you
5 know, meeting with your staff yesterday and
6 hearing that your college and Queens College
7 are, you know, financially challenged, add
8 that on to what I asked.
9 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: And
10 we have a bright new great leader at your
11 college even with some of the fiscal
12 challenges, President Schrader, right? Well,
13 she's interim; we have to do a search and do
14 things by the book. But even she was excited
15 about the mission and what can be done at
16 York.
17 We have -- with your support and some
18 of the measures that we're taking, we have a
19 path forward to stabilizing the financial
20 side of what we have to do at the university
21 to provide the great experience that the
22 students should have. And the presidents are
23 a key part of that leadership. And I tell
24 you that the mission of CUNY attracts
137
1 individuals that want to be part of working
2 on behalf of those goals.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: If you could
4 get me how many vacancies. Thank you,
5 Chancellor.
6 Chancellor King?
7 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: You know, we
8 have a handful of searches that are underway
9 now. I will say I think the willingness of
10 the Governor and the Legislature to invest
11 stands out, compared to other states. Last
12 year's $163 million operating increase got
13 the attention of the country, because other
14 states are going backwards on public
15 higher ed.
16 New York's commitment to diversity,
17 equity and inclusion, the fact that we aren't
18 sliding backwards the way Florida or Texas
19 is, that has people's attention. So we've
20 had very strong pools. I'll give you an
21 example. Our new SUNY Poly president was the
22 provost at Worcester Polytechnic, one of the
23 country's leading polytechnic institutions,
24 and before that ran a center at Princeton.
138
1 It was great to have him come. We're excited
2 about his leadership there.
3 And so we're seeing good response to
4 our searches. We'll get you a list of the
5 current searches.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
8 There are no more Senator questions,
9 so we're going to go through the
10 Assemblymembers with questions.
11 Let me just alert that we'll start
12 with Assemblywoman Wallace, then
13 Assemblywoman Forrest and Assemblywoman
14 McMahon and then myself, and then
15 Assemblywoman Fahy for seconds. So somehow
16 the women are at the end of the list today.
17 (Laughter.)
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALLACE: Well, good
19 morning. Thank you so much for your
20 testimony today.
21 First I just want to thank you for
22 your comments about community colleges being
23 vital workforce development tools. We
24 recognize that and agree with the comments
139
1 that have already been made that we need to
2 do more to invest and stabilize our community
3 colleges.
4 I know, Chancellor King, you and I had
5 a private conversation about streamlining the
6 certification process, being able to get
7 those certifications more quickly and kind of
8 cut through the red tape so that we can
9 attract students, make them more nimble and
10 then create scaffolding programs, scaffolding
11 the non-degree with the degree.
12 And, you know, as we're thinking about
13 how to do that, I would encourage you to
14 think about creative ways to give credit for
15 life experiences. For example, you know, I
16 have a bill about veterans' service, a bill
17 about EMS and firefighter service. You know,
18 there are great experiences that they bring,
19 and then kind of draw those people in to
20 getting certifications that will get them
21 farther along in life.
22 Likewise, when you talk about, you
23 know, whether somebody is a plumber, they
24 want to run a business, things like that,
140
1 they need business skills, they might need
2 marketing skills.
3 And so that, you know, I would
4 encourage you to think creatively about that,
5 and I would love to work with you on that.
6 With regard -- the other thing I
7 wanted to touch on is the Distressed Campus
8 Fund and sort of where we are with those
9 campuses. As you know, every state dollar
10 that's invested in SUNY leverages at least $5
11 in a return on investment. In Western
12 New York alone, SUNY campuses pump about
13 $3.7 billion into our regional economy -- and
14 that's the entire Western New York region,
15 not just the Buffalo area. They're a magnet
16 for attracting people to move to a region --
17 I'm a good example, I grew up on Long Island,
18 I now live and represent Buffalo and raise my
19 family there, right? So they're a magnet for
20 attracting people to different areas of the
21 state. And we know that SUNY students stay
22 in the state and they work in the state. And
23 that's why it's so critically important to
24 invest in our SUNY system.
141
1 And so that's why this Legislature
2 allocated money for the Distressed Campus
3 Fund. And I was disappointed to see that not
4 all of the money went to the schools that
5 were most -- it didn't seem to be allocated
6 to the schools that were most in dire
7 financial need. Some of the money went to
8 schools that maybe didn't need it as much.
9 So I guess my question is, how much of
10 that remains? And, you know, I was -- we did
11 have a provision in last year's budget saying
12 that the schools, to your point earlier, need
13 to sort of think about how to rightsize
14 themselves and to increase enrollment. But
15 we didn't give them the chance to do that
16 before we did some of these cuts. So I urge
17 you think about refraining from any further
18 cuts to these campuses until we give those
19 schools an opportunity to come up with those
20 plans.
21 And I guess I spoke too long.
22 (Laughter.)
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So I think, you
24 know, you'll be sending us some information
142
1 that we'll be able to share with all of our
2 colleagues here.
3 Next, Assemblywoman Forrest.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST: Thank you
5 both, Chancellors, for being here.
6 My first question is to
7 Chancellor King. In March 2020 the previous
8 governor declared Downstate a COVID-only
9 hospital, forcing them to suspend all
10 revenue-raising services, leading to a
11 deficit of $160 million. Has the state done
12 anything to address that debt?
13 And as chancellor, have you sought
14 federal funding or other funding streams to
15 support Downstate?
16 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: So, look,
17 I'm --
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST: Has the state
19 given you assistance with that $160 million?
20 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: As I mentioned
21 earlier -- two things. One is I want to
22 express my personal gratitude and the
23 system's gratitude for what folks at
24 Downstate did during the COVID era. I will
143
1 say last year --
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST: Did the state
3 give you money?
4 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: -- we asked for
5 -- I don't know what money was given in 2020.
6 I can get back to you on that.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST: Okay, you can
8 get back to me, no problem.
9 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: I started last
10 January, and one of the first things you'll
11 recall that I did was to talk with many of
12 the Brooklyn delegation members about the --
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST: And we heard,
14 and we spoke.
15 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: -- about the
16 needs at Downstate and the impending
17 deficit --
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST: Have you
19 sought out federal funding and other funding
20 streams to support SUNY? Have you put in
21 applications to the feds for helping?
22 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: SUNY Downstate
23 gets now significant federal dollars --
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST: How much?
144
1 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: -- focused on
2 research. I can get you the precise number.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST: No problem.
4 Please send it to the chairs.
5 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: But the
6 challenges, the needs are for operating
7 support and for long-term capital support.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST: Right. Right.
9 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: And we need the
10 state's help to address both of those in
11 order to save the hospital, which is our
12 goal.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST: And I agree
14 with you.
15 So this is the first that I'm hearing
16 that you're actually saying save the
17 hospital. What I heard before was a
18 reimagining plan, reimagining meaning an
19 emphasis on the health -- on the health
20 education portion and not the hospital.
21 So I have to be very frank. I have
22 heard my colleagues' questions, and I have
23 been disappointed by the answers to the
24 situation at downstate. I will tell you as a
145
1 nurse, as a patient at Downstate, as a
2 Black mama who knows Downstate has the one
3 Level IV NICU in the whole of Brooklyn.
4 So to me, when we're talking about
5 maternal health, when I think about my next
6 child, I am cringing at my options in my own
7 district and in Brooklyn that I live at.
8 And so you keep on bringing up the
9 hospitals surrounding. You keep on -- have
10 you followed your residents to Kings County?
11 Have you followed your residents to Maimo?
12 Do you know what it looks like? Because I'll
13 tell you as a patient, as someone who's
14 worked there, I don't know what inch or
15 square feet you're talking about.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assembly --
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST: I'm sorry, I
18 get very impassioned. I'm so sorry.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman,
20 thank you. We're going to move on.
21 There may be some answers you'll be
22 sending in regard to Assemblywoman Phara's
23 questions, Phara Fawcett's {sic} questions.
24 Assemblywoman McMahon.
146
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN McMAHON: Thank you,
2 Chair Weinstein.
3 Good morning, Chancellors. Thank you
4 so much for your testimony. It's been a
5 really interesting discussion so far.
6 Chancellor King, I'd like to thank you
7 for your commitment to the University
8 Centers. I'm particularly thrilled that UB
9 has been chosen as the host of the Empire AI
10 Consortium. We're really excited about that.
11 My concern is -- today is with the
12 SUNY colleges. And my colleague
13 Assemblymember Wallace went into a lot the
14 reasons why they're so important as economic
15 drivers in these smaller rural communities.
16 And I know, even representing a district
17 outside of Buffalo, I have constituents who
18 work at Fredonia, who commute down there to
19 teach.
20 And you went into a lot of detail
21 about Potsdam, but I'm kind of wondering
22 about Fredonia and some of these other
23 colleges. Thank you to your commitment to
24 keeping them all open and viable. But what
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1 is the situation with Fredonia, for instance?
2 Is it similar to Potsdam, the enrollment
3 drop, the vacant buildings? Or my question
4 really is if we're going to be cutting
5 programs, can we really expect these places
6 to rebound in enrollment when we're limiting
7 student options?
8 So I'm wondering kind of particularly
9 about Fredonia, but the colleges in general.
10 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah, I mean
11 Fredonia is a good example of where -- really
12 at all of our campuses we have to constantly
13 continuously look at the mix of program
14 offerings and make sure we're responding to
15 student demand. That means sometimes there
16 are programs that don't have students
17 enrolled in them that we need to reevaluate,
18 and there are places where we could grow.
19 So it's true, Fredonia is making
20 adjustments to programs that have very little
21 enrollment. But they are also growing
22 programs where there's demand. And so they
23 got last year I believe a 25 percent increase
24 in state support. So a lot of additional
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1 state dollars, but it doesn't change that
2 they need to continue to adjust their
3 programs to match where there is student
4 interest. They've lost, over a 10-year
5 period, more than 40 percent of their
6 enrollment. We think they can be sustainable
7 at the size they are now, and there are some
8 opportunities to grow. And that's why
9 they're adding some programs in some areas
10 where there's real student demand and need in
11 the region.
12 So I'm very hopeful about the future
13 of Fredonia based on the plan that the
14 president and leadership team have put in
15 place.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN McMAHON: Do you know
17 what the enrollment is there, approximately?
18 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: I'll get you
19 the exact -- it's gone from I think over
20 5,000 to around 3400, something like that.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN McMAHON: So it's not
22 quite as small as Potsdam.
23 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah. Yeah.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN McMAHON: Thank you. I
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1 appreciate it.
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So I guess it's
3 time for me to ask a few questions.
4 You know, so -- Chancellor King, we
5 spoke -- we spoke previously about Downstate.
6 I know you grew up in Flatlands. You know
7 the neighborhood, you know that so many
8 people from Flatlands, these
9 Flatbush-surrounding areas, work at the
10 hospital and also at Downstate. I'm so glad
11 it's back to being called Downstate. There
12 was that brief Brooklyn Science, none of us
13 knew what that really was.
14 So there really seems to be a
15 disconnect between the talking about
16 community involvement and community plan and
17 then just listening, both here and other
18 places, to my colleagues' concerns, the
19 employees' concerns about not being involved,
20 not knowing what the direction is. I echo
21 some of the concerns Senator Krueger raised,
22 and not knowing what Health + Hospitals'
23 agreement would be with Downstate, whether
24 this new Downstate hospital would be a wing
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1 at County, would be sharing an emergency
2 room, have its own access -- there's just a
3 lot of detail that we don't know. Maybe it's
4 okay. But right now, all we have are
5 questions and concerns.
6 And as my colleague Assemblywoman
7 Forrest mentioned, all of us are concerned
8 not only just in Brooklyn, but throughout the
9 state with maternal health and particularly
10 maternal health of Black women. And Central
11 Brooklyn seems to be having a lot of issues,
12 and Downstate is a place that people look to.
13 So the more detail we can get about the
14 relationship, the planned relationship
15 between Downstate and Kings County, I think
16 will go a long way to coming up with
17 hopefully a joint plan --
18 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Exactly.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: -- by SUNY and
20 the community. You know, I think the --
21 certainly from your part, I get the sense
22 that you want Downstate to continue as a
23 hospital, you want -- and you want the school
24 to continue to produce students who stay in
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1 New York State, stay in Brooklyn, serve
2 communities that are underserved.
3 So the more that we can continue this
4 conversation and work together -- the
5 community, the legislators -- I think that we
6 can hopefully get to a position. It is
7 disturbing that during COVID, Downstate was
8 the COVID hospital. It saved many lives in
9 Brooklyn. And we did not get the
10 reimbursement back that we should have. Our
11 employees, the employees there didn't
12 initially get those kind of extra payments
13 that medical facilities at other hospitals
14 had, and we lost some good people because
15 they were poached away by other states and
16 other systems.
17 So to the extent we continue those
18 conversations, that would be very positive.
19 So there's no question there, but just, you
20 know, emphasis.
21 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: I'm very
22 committed, very committed to that. And, you
23 know, I think the Governor and we wanted to
24 lay out a set of principles, including the
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1 Governor's willingness to make an investment
2 that hasn't been made in decades as a
3 starting place for a conversation with the
4 community to develop these details, and with
5 staff and faculty.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And we look, you
7 know, forward to having a more drilled-down
8 discussion of where the funding is and how
9 it's going to be spent.
10 And then both the question to
11 Chancellor Rodríguez and yourself, as part of
12 the Executive Budget there's a proposal to
13 allow student data to be shared from SUNY and
14 CUNY for educational purposes. And what kind
15 of data do the systems want, and how would
16 this data be used and why is it needed?
17 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ:
18 Well, we know from experience how important
19 in the work that we have done, for example,
20 with the department, the New York City Public
21 Schools, to have data-sharing agreements that
22 facilitate a whole range of transactions,
23 policy work and activities. And that being
24 done with all the safety, privacy and
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1 guardrails, right, that are appropriate.
2 In higher ed, folks are very mobile.
3 They might be gone at a SUNY campus, being
4 from the city, they then come back. So all
5 that movement. If we had better ways to be
6 able to share that data, we will be more
7 nimble and better equipped at making
8 large-scale policy decisions. So I think
9 that that is something that, you know, with
10 all the appropriate guardrails, is incredibly
11 desirable.
12 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: The only thing
13 I would add is, you know, even between our
14 systems, as those students move, we want to
15 make sure that they're able to transfer their
16 credits, for example, that they're able to
17 get good advising around course selection.
18 And so things that make it easier for us,
19 with all the privacy protections, to be able
20 to share data will allow us to serve students
21 better.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Great. Thank
23 you.
24 So now we'll go to our Higher Ed chair
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1 for a second round of three minutes.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you, Chair.
3 And I'll try to be very brief.
4 Just a couple of things that we did
5 not get to. Thank you, both chancellors.
6 Just a couple of quick comments on the
7 EOP. I want to echo the comments I think of
8 Senator Krueger, as well as the interest on
9 the CUNY and SUNY Foundation information
10 would be terrific. Also want to echo the
11 comments of our ranking member on early
12 college high schools and the tremendous
13 importance. And I'm also just thrilled today
14 to hear all the comments about community
15 colleges. They are so much a part of our
16 future. And as you yourself said,
17 Chancellor, Micron alone is a perfect example
18 of that.
19 So -- and really appreciate as well
20 the comments on TAP. Because TAP, TAP, TAP,
21 as I keep saying. It will be essential to
22 turning around the enrollment numbers,
23 especially on some of the microcredentials
24 that we also heard a lot about today.
155
1 So two questions. The SUNY Downstate,
2 I think what you are hearing -- and I
3 mentioned it in my previous 10 minutes, but
4 what you are hearing is a fear and a real
5 commitment of members, particularly on the
6 ambulatory services. I know you're having
7 conversations. We need to accelerate those
8 conversations. I know that this is more in
9 the Health Committee bucket, if you will.
10 And we will continue to talk with our
11 colleague Chairwoman Paulin on that, and have
12 already started those conversations.
13 So I'm not sure if you have anything
14 more to add there, and I want to save a
15 minute there for AI. So if there's anything
16 more in terms of what we need to do. I mean,
17 the good news here is there are eyes on it.
18 Because I have heard from all that this has
19 been decades of neglect at the SUNY Downstate
20 Hospital. So I guess that's the good news.
21 The bad news is we want to make sure,
22 as Chair Weinstein just mentioned, we have
23 that attention given on what happened during
24 COVID.
156
1 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Yeah, look. I
2 would just underscore our commitment to
3 preserving the inpatient services, expanding
4 outpatient services, and trying to improve
5 healthcare in the community. That is where
6 our focus is, and we want to do that in
7 partnership.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Terrific.
9 Terrific. And again, both of you
10 mentioned -- I'm switching to AI, the
11 artificial intelligence.
12 Just as early investments 10, 15 years
13 ago led to us becoming the epicenter of the
14 country, if not the world, on the
15 semiconductor industry -- and if we hadn't
16 had the original SUNY Poly or CSNE, we
17 wouldn't have had Global Foundries, and I
18 don't think we would have Micron. So it will
19 transform at least the upstate economy if not
20 more. We want to do the same on AI. And I'm
21 thrilled that both SUNY and CUNY are involved
22 in that.
23 Chancellor, could you talk about how
24 more of SUNY will be involved? We understand
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1 the supercomputer is going to U Buffalo.
2 I've got my purple on for UAlbany. Can you,
3 in eight seconds -- sorry. Go ahead.
4 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: UAlbany has
5 been doing a great job of adding faculty and
6 AI, and I expect UAlbany, Binghamton,
7 Stony Brook and Buffalo all to play a major
8 role. They're all founding members of the
9 consortium for Empire AI.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you. Thank
11 you, Chancellor. And Donna Lupardo has
12 mentioned it as well.
13 Thank you, Chair.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
15 So as Senator Krueger has said
16 previously, we haven't finished all our
17 questions, but we've run out of time for
18 members to ask them.
19 So we thank you for being here, both
20 of you for being here, and look forward to
21 hearing -- getting some feedback on some of
22 the issues that were raised, or perhaps you
23 didn't have -- either of you did not have the
24 opportunity to fully respond to.
158
1 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Thank you very
2 much.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And we appreciate
4 you, but we also appreciate getting the
5 responses in writing to both Ways and Means
6 and Finance, and then we can share it with
7 all the members.
8 SUNY CHANCELLOR KING: Thank you.
9 CUNY CHANCELLOR MATOS RODRÍGUEZ: We
10 will. Thank you.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
12 Thank you.
13 So I would just request that people --
14 people who are leaving leave quietly. If
15 members need to have further conversations,
16 you take those outside the hearing room.
17 And our next witness, a former
18 colleague, Dr. Guillermo Linares, the
19 president of the New York State Higher
20 Education Services Corporation.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Please take your
22 conversations out to the hall so that we can
23 start the next panel.
24 (Pause.)
159
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Chancellor King
2 and -- both chancellors, in the hall.
3 Assemblymembers can follow you if they want.
4 And Senators. They can all follow you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Just a minute,
6 as some people continue to exit the room.
7 Okay, so now you can begin. Thank
8 you.
9 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Good
10 afternoon, Chairs Krueger, Weinstein,
11 Stavisky and Fahy, and my former colleagues
12 in the Senate and Assembly, thank you for the
13 opportunity to speak with you today about the
14 2024-'25 Executive Budget recommendations for
15 HESC. I am Dr. Guillermo Linares, president
16 of the Higher Education Services Corporation,
17 and I'm pleased to be joined by HESC
18 Executive Vice President Doris Gonzalez.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Guillermo, can
20 you just pull the mic a little closer to you?
21 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Sure.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
23 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: New York
24 continues to be at the forefront of creating
160
1 opportunities for students to pursue higher
2 education and invest in programs that ensure
3 every student has access to a quality
4 education. From financial aid to student
5 support services and diversity programs,
6 Governor Hochul is committed to helping
7 students succeed in college and beyond.
8 HESC, New York State's student
9 financial aid agency, administers more than
10 two dozen state-funded grant, scholarship,
11 and loan forgiveness programs. During the
12 2022-'23 academic year, these programs
13 disbursed financial assistance to
14 approximately 300,000 students.
15 New York's generous investment in
16 student financial aid, including TAP and
17 Excelsior Scholarships, helped over 176,000
18 New York State residents attend SUNY and CUNY
19 tuition-free in academic year '22-'23, with
20 52 percent at SUNY state-operated campuses
21 and 67 percent at CUNY senior colleges. In
22 the same academic year, more than
23 65,000 students at private universities,
24 colleges and business schools received TAP.
161
1 Governor Hochul's 2024-'25
2 Executive Budget demonstrates a firm
3 commitment to providing access to
4 post-secondary education for all students
5 throughout New York. The Governor's budget
6 proposal includes strategic investments in
7 higher education programs aimed at increasing
8 access to high-quality and affordable higher
9 education options across the state.
10 In the two budgets enacted under
11 Governor Hochul, state operating funding for
12 higher education has increased by a total of
13 $1.07 billion -- that is, 17 percent --
14 growing from $6.15 billion to $7.22 billion.
15 The 2024-'25 Executive Budget provides
16 $967.9 million for HESC financial aid
17 programs, including $764 million for TAP.
18 Last year we proudly celebrated TAP's
19 50th anniversary. Since inception, TAP has
20 provided nearly $30 billion to help more than
21 6 million New Yorkers who have pursued a
22 college education. During the 2022-'23
23 school year alone, TAP provided over
24 $663 million in tuition assistance to more
162
1 than 230,000 students in New York.
2 The Executive Budget continues full
3 support of the historic expansion of TAP,
4 expanding the program guidelines to include
5 students who were previously ineligible. Let
6 me explain.
7 In the 2022-'23 budget,
8 Governor Hochul expanded TAP for more
9 students who were unable to attend college
10 full-time. The legislation removed the
11 previous requirement that students had to be
12 enrolled full-time for two years before
13 switching to part-time to be eligible for
14 TAP. Now any student attending SUNY, CUNY,
15 and not-for-profit independent
16 degree-granting colleges on a part-time
17 basis, taking a minimum of six credits, can
18 benefit from TAP.
19 Additionally, in order to help
20 New Yorkers develop or gain new skills in
21 advancing industries, TAP was expanded to
22 part-time students enrolled at eligible
23 non-degree workforce credential programs at
24 participating SUNY and CUNY schools.
163
1 Students attending non-degree programs at
2 SUNY or CUNY community colleges in the
3 Spring 2024 semester can access TAP.
4 By welcoming thousands of additional
5 students, colleges can tap into demographics
6 and bridge gaps within their student
7 population. This influx can help bolster
8 enrollment figures, a critical metric for the
9 stability and prosperity of any educational
10 institution.
11 In the 2022-'23 academic term, TAP
12 funding eligibility for incarcerated
13 individuals was restored. This benefit,
14 denied to this community of students since
15 1995, now offers them an opportunity to
16 access TAP for their post-secondary education
17 and enables them to expand their employment
18 prospects and future success upon release.
19 The Free Application for Federal
20 Student Aid -- FAFSA -- is the gateway for
21 students to determine their eligibility for
22 federal financial assistance, which
23 encompasses grants, educational loans, and
24 work-study programs. It is also a
164
1 prerequisite for many of New York State's
2 financial aid programs.
3 For New York State, encouraging high
4 school seniors to complete their FAFSA forms
5 is not only an educational priority, but also
6 a significant financial one. In 2022, almost
7 50 percent of high school seniors in New York
8 did not complete their FAFSA, missing their
9 chance to attain crucial funding. This lack
10 of FAFSA completion has resulted in a
11 staggering $200 million in Pell Grant funds
12 left on the table.
13 Pell Grants, designed to assist
14 low-income college students, can play a
15 pivotal role in a family's ability to afford
16 post-secondary education. Without completing
17 the FAFSA, students forfeit valuable
18 opportunities to receive a Pell Grant or
19 other federal and New York State financial
20 aid -- a loss for the students and a missed
21 opportunity for communities that could
22 benefit from a more educated workforce.
23 The 2024-'25 Executive Budget requires
24 school districts ensure that every
165
1 high school senior or the parent certifies to
2 having completed the FAFSA or the New York
3 State DREAM Act or, in the alternative, signs
4 a waiver form indicating that they are aware
5 of but choose not to fill out the FAFSA.
6 It is important to note -- and I want
7 to highlight this -- that completing the
8 FAFSA is not a graduation requirement, and
9 all individual students will still be able to
10 graduate regardless of whether they complete
11 the FAFSA.
12 Financial support can only reach those
13 who apply for it. To that end, HESC has
14 embarked on a comprehensive outreach
15 campaign, NY FAFSA READY, to educate students
16 on, and to assist students with completing,
17 their FAFSA and TAP applications. This
18 initiative includes events to assist students
19 with completing their FAFSA or TAP
20 applications, social media campaigns to
21 ensure students and their families are aware
22 of the benefits of completing the FAFSA, and
23 the creation of a one-stop hub where
24 students, parents, and counselors can access
166
1 valuable information.
2 Already, this academic year, HESC has
3 conducted 54 events and we have another
4 28 virtual events scheduled through March and
5 plan to continue to add more in the coming
6 months. We encourage students and parents to
7 visit the hesc.ny.gov website and go to sign
8 up and get text messages so they can be
9 notified about upcoming informational
10 sessions.
11 HESC has also undergone changes in our
12 mission, which we are very proud about. In
13 December 2021 HESC terminated its role with
14 the U.S. Department of Education as the
15 guaranty agency administering the Federal
16 Family Education Loan Program, FFELP, on
17 behalf of New York State. The Trellis
18 Company was designated as the successor, and
19 in May 2023, the portfolio was transferred to
20 Trellis without adverse impact on borrowers.
21 With this transition, we can now focus
22 our resources fully on supporting New Yorkers
23 in their pursuit of state financial aid
24 awards to fund their college education. We
167
1 are in the process of updating our website
2 and have embarked on fully modernizing our
3 financial aid system so students can easily
4 find the information they need and seamlessly
5 apply for grants and scholarships.
6 In closing, under Governor Hochul's
7 leadership New York State has shown its
8 resolute commitment to expanding access to
9 high-quality, affordable higher education for
10 every student in New York who desires it.
11 This critical investment in higher education
12 programs will go a long way in making
13 post-secondary education achievable for every
14 student who dreams of obtaining a college
15 degree in New York State.
16 I thank Governor Hochul for ensuring
17 students receive the support they deserve,
18 and State Operations Director Kathryn Garcia,
19 Deputy Secretary of Education Maria
20 Fernandez, and New York State Budget
21 Director Blake Washington, for their
22 continued support and collaboration.
23 Thank you, and I will be happy to
24 answer any questions you may have.
168
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
2 much.
3 Our first questioner will be Pat Fahy,
4 10 minutes, Assembly Education chair.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you. Thank
6 you, Chair.
7 And wonderful to see you. Thank you
8 for the testimony today.
9 I have a few questions. And I want to
10 start by -- President Linares, I want to
11 start by saying thank you for the help from
12 you and your team with pulling together a
13 number of estimates and information as we
14 have launched a TAP campaign, as you know,
15 "Turn on the TAP," to really begin to turn
16 around the numbers, a number of which you
17 just referenced.
18 And I'm going to start with a question
19 on that. I have a number of questions. But
20 I think it is important that TAP in
21 two thousand -- well, before 2011, in its
22 first 40 -- almost 40 years, TAP followed
23 tuition. So the cost of SUNY or CUNY tuition
24 was essentially covered by TAP for those who
169
1 qualified. And in its first 25 years or
2 more, it did serve not only low-income
3 families but essentially was serving
4 middle-income families. But as you know, for
5 25 years now the income threshold in which
6 families qualify has not increased from
7 beyond the $80,000 where people tap out or
8 families tap out, if you will.
9 So we definitely want to work to see
10 how we can recouple that. And as you know,
11 we have circulated an entire package. Many
12 members sitting here have proposals on that.
13 So if I can start with the question
14 this year, my understanding, if we had just
15 tied where TAP would be from about 2011 or
16 so, we would be spending about almost $1.3
17 billion on it. Instead, I understand the
18 Executive Budget is requesting yet another
19 decrease in that of 132 million, which brings
20 the program fund request at 764 million.
21 Can you explain the decrease to us?
22 Is that all tied to enrollment? Which -- you
23 also just mentioned FAFSA. We are just
24 thrilled to see the Governor include the
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1 near-mandate, if you will, to really
2 accelerate the use of FAFSA. So I know we're
3 all working together to do that.
4 But what is this cut tied to,
5 President Guillermo?
6 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Well, I want
7 to start by saying that we look very closely
8 at the projection in terms of enrollment that
9 we anticipate for the next fiscal year. And
10 the revenues that have been designated we're
11 confident will allow us to cover the
12 enrollment that we will be having. So we
13 believe that we are maintaining ourselves
14 whole with that at this point, given the
15 projections that we have for the coming year.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: So if I can
17 further ask a little bit more on that, the
18 projections -- we just heard both chancellors
19 before us, we plan to hear from CICU later
20 today. At least both SUNY and CUNY
21 chancellors talked about the enrollment
22 increases. While slight, we did see that
23 bump up, and we're very proud of that because
24 we had record investments in operating
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1 dollars last year due to the work of many
2 folks here, including myself.
3 So I understand it was the first
4 significant increase since 2007. Are you
5 still saying, even with those enrollment
6 increases, we're still going to see a
7 decrease in TAP take-up rates?
8 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: In the early
9 conversations we've had with the Division of
10 Budget, we feel confident that we're going to
11 be able to fulfill the commitment of
12 providing the tuition to all of the students
13 that will be enrolling for next year.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Okay. All right.
15 As you know, many of us are really working to
16 turn that around. And you heard a lot of
17 questions on that -- microcredentials,
18 raising the income floor. There's a whole
19 host -- one bill alone, Assemblywoman Clark,
20 and I think there's another, and
21 Senator Stavisky have legislation just to
22 raise that income threshold.
23 Your estimates, which again were very
24 helpful, would say as many as 25,000
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1 additional students might benefit by that.
2 So we are quite determined to try to address
3 the needs of students and families. Eighty
4 thousand was a big number in 2011 or earlier.
5 It's certainly not -- not serving the number
6 of families we need to. So we do want to
7 work with you on that.
8 Can I switch to another issue -- again
9 where we have lots of legislation, including
10 my own -- is to better serve independent
11 students. Right now TAP has been really
12 known for serving dependent students. We
13 have legislation to increase the threshold
14 for independent students, because primarily
15 if they make more than $10,000 per year,
16 which is an extraordinarily low threshold,
17 they are out of luck. And as it is, I know
18 there was a three-year error on the TAP
19 independent students where they were treated
20 like dependent students.
21 Have we addressed that error at this
22 time? And are you confident that we won't
23 see that again? And can you talk about the
24 impact on the students themselves?
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1 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Yes.
2 First of all, the issue of overpayment
3 that -- once we discovered it as an issue, we
4 addressed it and looked at it very seriously.
5 We immediately followed up with ITS to really
6 look into what happened and realized that
7 there were limitations in terms of the
8 outdated system that we use, which is
9 antiquated, decades in existence.
10 We proceeded to establish more
11 rigorous oversight or more rigorous steps to
12 make sure that we address the issue and it
13 would not happen again. We proceeded
14 immediately to examine internally how this
15 had happened and was undetected for quite
16 some time. And it goes back to 2021, when
17 there was a budgetary change done to TAP
18 where it really looked at how TAP was
19 disbursed to independent -- to the low amount
20 and highest amount given to -- on TAP.
21 And that change triggered changes from
22 11 schedules to five. And when that was
23 done, it was not captured. And that's where
24 the mistake was, from independent to
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1 dependent students.
2 And that was -- that has been
3 addressed. We've informed all the colleges
4 and universities impacted, both public and
5 private. We have taken steps to really
6 address the quality control. And we are
7 modernizing now the entire system.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you. Yes,
9 I appreciate that you're modernizing that.
10 And again, I want to echo -- and we've had
11 many conversations on this -- make sure the
12 students are held harmless as well as the
13 individual universities and colleges, so that
14 they are not penalized for something the
15 students were not aware of until this year.
16 But we appreciate your frankness in
17 bringing this to our attention, and glad we
18 are modernizing the system.
19 Last question on this. And that is
20 with regard to TAP, I know students have been
21 inundated, we know FAFSA itself, the feds are
22 updating that. And I heard that that's going
23 to need a lot of work. Lots of confusion out
24 there. And as somebody who struggles with
175
1 these federal and state forms, I am
2 sympathetic.
3 The TAP application, I understand the
4 length of time can take as long as 60 days to
5 receive a determination on a TAP application.
6 Can you address that and tell us what we can
7 do or what you are doing to expedite that,
8 especially given the problems with the new
9 federal FAFSA form?
10 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Well, the
11 FAFSA, as we know, came in late at the end of
12 the year. But we didn't wait for that. We
13 in October began the process of having
14 students apply. And to date we have over
15 80,000 students who have already applied and
16 are ready now, are in the process. They've
17 all been notified that they must fill out a
18 FAFSA so far.
19 So we are waiting for FAFSA and the
20 federal government to be able to share the
21 information they have in order for us to
22 proceed with the students that have already
23 applied.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you. Thank
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1 you so much. And let us know how we can help
2 to accelerate that, because the students --
3 it's causing a lot of anxiety among the
4 students.
5 And again, the bottom line is I
6 appreciate your help on a whole host of TAP
7 bills that are out there. Our goal is to
8 turn these numbers around.
9 Thank you, Chair.
10 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Thank you.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
12 And our next chair, Toby Stavisky,
13 from the Senate.
14 SENATOR STAVISKY: I always push hard
15 on everything, including microphones, I
16 guess.
17 Dr. Linares, thank you. Great to see
18 you again.
19 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Same here.
20 SENATOR STAVISKY: And I appreciate
21 the work that you're doing at HESC. And I'm
22 glad that the subject of the independent
23 student has come up. Because can you
24 imagine, in 2024, living on $10,000 a year?
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1 That's not below the poverty line, it's way
2 under every other concept of society.
3 At any rate, the issue of the
4 independent student and the overpayments to
5 the students -- I understand that HESC is
6 sending out notices of repayment to these
7 students, to students to repay the
8 overpayment that they received. Is that
9 correct?
10 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: No, let me
11 clarify.
12 Statutorily, HESC is required to
13 submit invoices to the institutions, to the
14 colleges. This is part of the regular
15 operating function of HESC, you know, with
16 all the programs it has, in this particular
17 case TAP.
18 So the colleges will be receiving
19 notification on a regular basis, as they do
20 every year, not the students.
21 SENATOR STAVISKY: And it's my
22 understanding that both SUNY and CUNY are
23 going to absorb the cost of the overpayment
24 to the students?
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1 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: They have --
2 there have been appropriations done within
3 their operations to help address this with
4 the colleges.
5 SENATOR STAVISKY: What about the
6 students who do not attend a public
7 institution? For example -- and I don't mean
8 to spring this on you. However, I was
9 looking at the list, and there are
10 14 students at the College of Saint Rose, and
11 the college is being billed the
12 23,000-and-change cost of the overpayment of
13 the independent TAP.
14 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: We're very
15 sensitive to all students, students in public
16 and private universities. And it is
17 certainly our hope that students will be held
18 harmless.
19 As I said, the invoices will be sent
20 to all colleges. It is a requirement that
21 we, by law, have to proceed with. We've been
22 having conversations, discussions to see how
23 this can be addressed. It is hopeful -- at
24 our end we hope that this can be addressed
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1 with the institutions in addressing this
2 matter.
3 SENATOR STAVISKY: I certainly hope
4 so. Because many of these students, the --
5 some of their Opportunity Program money has
6 been cut, there are other economic and social
7 challenges that many students have. Many of
8 the colleges are financially stressed. And
9 particularly an institution like the College
10 of Saint Rose, they must have a long list of
11 people to whom they owe money. I think it's
12 almost unfair.
13 And to bill them back to 2021 -- when
14 the fiscal year is over, the fiscal year 2023
15 is finished. And yet we're going to bill
16 them for previous years. I think we've got
17 to find a better way, and perhaps the statute
18 should be changed.
19 A couple of other questions. Because
20 I must tell you I appreciate those
21 Zoom meetings that we've had concerning the
22 independent TAP. And I don't think we can
23 close our legislative books on this issue.
24 The Pell Grants and the TAP for the
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1 incarcerated, can you tell us how that is
2 proceeding?
3 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Sure.
4 SENATOR STAVISKY: I must tell you --
5 it was said earlier -- I think it's a great
6 program. I think it's much cheaper than
7 incarcerating people -- having them go out to
8 society, get a job, contribute to the economy
9 and so on.
10 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: We learned a
11 lot when we implemented the DREAM Act as we
12 rolled out the initiative, as it was restored
13 for the populations in prison accessing
14 higher education. And we worked closely with
15 the Consortium of Higher Education in
16 Prisons, who helped roll out the program for
17 us with paper applications, because students
18 have -- they have no access to the internet.
19 So we did that successfully and are
20 happy to say that 661 applicants submitted,
21 and 453 received TAP applications -- or
22 reimbursement for their education at about
23 $5 million.
24 SENATOR STAVISKY: Lastly, let me just
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1 ask you a question about your agency, HESC.
2 I took a look at some of your
3 meetings. You have an unusually large board.
4 You did have a meeting in December of 2023
5 and it lasted a little over an hour, but
6 prior to that, the meeting -- the last
7 meeting that was held was held in 2019.
8 That's a four-year gap. And that meeting
9 lasted 17 minutes.
10 Do you think that the -- we ought to
11 take a look at the structure of HESC to make
12 it -- to update it?
13 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: We are, as we
14 speak, looking into the functions of the
15 Board of Trustees, mindful that it was
16 established when HESC was founded in the
17 mid-'70s. So taking a harder look at it now
18 makes sense.
19 But we had the pandemic. The last
20 time we met was to address the DREAM Act,
21 which was an important meeting. In fact, it
22 had to be virtual because we were already
23 approaching the pandemic.
24 But we were pleased to see that the
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1 Senate approved two new members to the Board
2 of Trustees, giving us a quorum that allowed
3 for the meeting that you referred to. And we
4 were able -- we met then on December 7th to
5 approve the regs for the non-degree students.
6 And we have our next meeting scheduled for
7 May 15th of this year.
8 SENATOR STAVISKY: Yes.
9 But I think that changes, the same way
10 as we think there -- the TAP, the entire TAP
11 structure ought to be modernized. And I want
12 to echo very briefly what was said a few
13 minutes ago, that we've got to take another
14 look at TAP. Because my bill which increased
15 the income eligibility from the 80,000 to
16 110,000 -- I think maybe we ought to raise it
17 even higher to include other programs as
18 well. And that hasn't changed in 25 years or
19 so.
20 And while we're celebrating the
21 50th anniversary, it seems to me that we
22 ought to review what's happened and build on
23 the better parts and get rid of the
24 anachronistic parts.
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1 So again, thank you, Dr. Linares, for
2 what you're doing.
3 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Thank you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
5 Next is Assemblymember Ra, ranker.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
7 Good afternoon.
8 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Good
9 afternoon.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Always good to see a
11 former colleague come back before us.
12 One of the programs I know I've asked
13 you about in previous years, and you've been
14 able to follow up with some information, so
15 I'm going to ask if you could do that again.
16 It's the Child Welfare Worker Incentive
17 Scholarship and the Child Welfare Worker Loan
18 Forgiveness Program. This budget funds them
19 at $50,000 each, which is the same as in
20 years past. And I'm wondering if you have
21 any data with you regarding how many people
22 are applying for these programs, and how many
23 have been awarded.
24 I think the last one I had was from
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1 two years ago in terms of that information.
2 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: I'm going to
3 ask my executive vice president to add. And
4 thank you for the question.
5 HESC EXEC. VP GONZALEZ: Yes, I will
6 get back to you. I'd rather get back to you
7 with more specific information. So if I may,
8 I would be happy to follow up with this.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay.
10 HESC EXEC. VP GONZALEZ: Thank you.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: That would be great.
12 Just the small amounts really -- you
13 know, it enables only, you know, five
14 students to be awarded them each year. And I
15 think, given the workforce recruitment and
16 retention issues we've had within that
17 sector, you know, expanding that opportunity
18 might be very helpful to --
19 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: And I may
20 just add. One thing that we are doing as we
21 are shifting the mission of our agency to be
22 more focused on making aware all New Yorkers
23 of the offerings that we have, all 28
24 scholarship grants and loan forgiveness
185
1 programs, that we engage aggressively in an
2 awareness for them to be able to apply for
3 every single program that we have.
4 And that's -- we're excited about
5 that.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: With regard to the
7 Excelsior Scholarship and the Enhanced
8 tuition awards, obviously many years now into
9 this -- I know the Excelsior Scholarship is
10 supposed to be funded at 136 million, which
11 is almost 26 million less than last year.
12 So is that a function of enrollment?
13 Do we expect the same number of scholarships
14 to be awarded to students this year?
15 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Well, for the
16 2022-'23 academic year we have close to
17 29,000 students receiving Excelsior
18 Scholarships. Needless to say, this has been
19 a very successful program. It emphasizes
20 completing college in four years, which, you
21 know, reduces the risk of having to graduate
22 with a debt. But more importantly, it gets
23 you into the job market quicker. So it's
24 been very successful.
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1 With regards to the Enhanced Tuition,
2 we have 1,808, if I'm correct, students that
3 are receiving the -- benefiting from the
4 program. I must say that it has reduced the
5 number from the time we started the program,
6 which was in concert with Excelsior, from
7 38 participating colleges to today now 24, I
8 believe we have.
9 We believe the program has now
10 generated $2.5 million, which are matched by
11 colleges by 2.5, so it's $5 million.
12 We believe that it has reduced
13 because -- mainly because the funds need to
14 be matched by the participating institutions,
15 so -- however, it is still going. We feel
16 that it's successful for those students that
17 are in private universities.
18 HESC EXEC. VP GONZALEZ: If I may add
19 also, it's that they need not just to match
20 up to 3,000, but they also have to freeze the
21 tuition rates, right, based on the first year
22 that they are eligible to receive that award
23 for as long as they're eligible to receive
24 that award. So that's also a consideration
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1 for the colleges.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
4 Senator Robert Jackson.
5 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you.
6 So, Dr. Linares, thank you for your
7 service, and your team.
8 I was just listening to you give your
9 presentation and questions and responses, and
10 it seems like things are going well in your
11 shop, compared to the previous panel, with
12 respect to all of the money and Downstate on
13 a cliff, people ready to fall off the cliff
14 as a result of, you know, years of
15 dysfunction and not enough support for
16 capital and so forth and so on.
17 So I'm happy to hear that. I'm going
18 to go to your website and look at all of the
19 things that are needed for our children to
20 get more of the scholarships and all of the
21 things that you have to offer. That's needed
22 to get out the information to everyone.
23 But I'm curious -- and I said to
24 myself, when you determine how many people
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1 are not filling out the FAFSA form -- and I
2 guess I asked you, do you do a survey of why
3 they're not filling it out at every level?
4 And I know you can't do it at your shop. But
5 at every school, we should be encouraging
6 that. And if not, finding out why, so then
7 we can then deal with the critical issue of
8 why they're not filling it out. Because
9 what's at stake, how much money?
10 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Two hundred
11 million.
12 SENATOR JACKSON: Two hundred million.
13 So that's what I recommend if that has
14 not been done. But it's important that we
15 give all of the students the opportunity to
16 get involved in all the programs that you
17 have to offer.
18 So we put out a weekly update every
19 week, and I'm going to go to your website and
20 have my staff look at all the programs so we
21 can at least get it out there to the people
22 in my district, so hopefully more people will
23 take advantage.
24 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: On the
189
1 website, we're excited to say that by the end
2 of this month we will have a brand-new
3 state-of-the-art website. In fact, we invite
4 you to a quick preview before we launch.
5 And so we're excited about that
6 because it is highly interactive,
7 communicative, and I think it's tailored for
8 students and families.
9 On the FAFSA, as you spoke it reminded
10 me of 1995 when you and I were on the school
11 board and in three months we registered
12 10,000 parents, half of the parents in the
13 entire City of New York in
14 Washington Heights.
15 There's no different approach with
16 this when it comes to students accessing and
17 families accessing these funds from the
18 federal government.
19 So I plan to work very aggressively
20 with all our partners -- SED, the
21 commissioner, and all of the other partners
22 that we have.
23 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
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1 Assembly.
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman
3 Clark.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK: Excellent.
5 Thank you so much.
6 I'm going to stay on the same track I
7 did with our SUNY chancellor to talk about
8 TAP and FAFSA as well and let you know some
9 of my thoughts and concerns and questions.
10 I agree, getting to the point where
11 everyone is filling out the FAFSA form is a
12 wonderful idea. And I know HESC has started
13 to do some informational events around the
14 state, and I think that's great as well.
15 But what I'm really concerned about is
16 the people who aren't applying are often the
17 ones that are really struggling to find the
18 information and fill out the form and don't
19 necessarily have someone, you know, sort of
20 boots on the ground helping them get through
21 it.
22 And as much as HESC can do
23 informational, I think it's wonderful. I'm
24 hoping that there's also a pot and a real
191
1 resource -- some resources given to those who
2 are already actually doing that real boots on
3 the ground: Helping families, holding their
4 hands through it. Because these are again
5 the ones that really struggle to track down
6 the forms that are needed and the information
7 that is needed.
8 And we can't just let this be an
9 unfunded sort of mandate. I know it's not
10 mandated to have it for graduation. But we
11 are really trying to encourage it. It only
12 works if we actually pair up people who are
13 in the communities doing this work and giving
14 them the resources to help those families.
15 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: I agree that
16 this is so huge, that it requires all hands
17 on deck. And what it would take to really
18 bring it down beyond what we are excited
19 about doing as a small agency and the efforts
20 that we have in collaboration with higher ed
21 partners -- but also with the Department of
22 Education, the commissioner and the school
23 districts to be engaged, so we bring it down
24 to where it makes a difference for students
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1 and families.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK: I just hope that
3 that comes with some resources for those
4 groups, that we're not just letting them --
5 trying to do more with less or more with what
6 they already have and expecting them to be
7 able to meet this demand and this need.
8 My second piece on that, and it is
9 really an issue of the -- you know, the
10 Governor's proposed budget moving out
11 $132 million from TAP as a decrease due to
12 adjusted long-term enrollment trends instead
13 of reinvesting that back into expanding
14 income eligibility.
15 Which we've already seen -- you know,
16 the number I continue to harp on is when
17 we -- over a four-year period we had a
18 9 percent decline in school enrollment in our
19 SUNY schools, our public schools, but a
20 26 percent decline in TAP. Which means more
21 and more families either aren't eligible or
22 aren't filling it out because the $500 isn't
23 worth it.
24 So I guess I was really frustrated
193
1 that we're moving dollars out of that program
2 instead of figuring out ways to help more
3 families.
4 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Yes. As you
5 are aware, we are all for greater access to
6 students attending colleges. And so we hope,
7 based on your discussions, that we're able to
8 continue to provide access to TAP for
9 students.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
11 So no more Senators, so we'll go --
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, excuse me. I
13 didn't see your hand, Lea. We do have one
14 more Senator, excuse me. Senator Lea Webb.
15 SENATOR WEBB: Thank you.
16 Thank you so much, Dr. Linares, for
17 being here.
18 I just have two quick questions. You
19 know, one, I would be remiss in this moment
20 if I didn't lift up the importance of TAP.
21 You know, as a first-generation student
22 myself, this was a program that was
23 instrumental to me in my academic journey and
24 continues to be for a number of students. So
194
1 definitely support our continued efforts to
2 expand TAP.
3 My question is I know State Ed has an
4 MOU with both the Department of Health and
5 OTDA that they can have information about
6 families that receive SNAP and Medicaid
7 benefits. This information is then used to
8 directly certify students for free meals in
9 schools.
10 Similarly, would your department be
11 open to developing MOUs with DOH and OTDA, or
12 possibly with SED, to collect that same
13 information from incoming high school seniors
14 to determine their TAP eligibility? That's
15 one.
16 And then the other is with regards to
17 funding support for the New York State
18 Nursing Faculty Loan Forgiveness Incentive
19 Program. We know that we continue to have
20 issues around healthcare provider shortages,
21 nurses being no exception to that. And it
22 was brought to my attention that this program
23 has been significantly underfunded.
24 So I was hoping you could address
195
1 those two. Thank you so much.
2 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Yes. On the
3 first one, I believe that there are
4 intersections with the State Department of
5 Education having a role when it comes to
6 initiatives and memoranda of understanding
7 that they have.
8 And what I bring to bear with any
9 initiative that engages students as they
10 enter college -- that's the mission of my
11 agency, is I work very closely in the work
12 that we do with students and families to help
13 complement what the Department of Education
14 is doing. So we have collaborative
15 approaches on that.
16 But we run programs that have been
17 established by statute, by law, by you along
18 with the Governor --
19 SENATOR WEBB: So are you saying that
20 we would have to establish a law to make that
21 happen with regards to SED working with you
22 to get information from incoming high school
23 seniors to determine their TAP eligibility?
24 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: We have
196
1 collaborated -- we collaborate as partners as
2 long as it helps access -- greater access to
3 students, and also access to whatever
4 resources they have.
5 But it is the mission of the State
6 Education Department to do so. We
7 collaborate with them along with that.
8 But by statute, we run 28 different
9 programs. Those are what we oversee. But
10 there is collaboration that we have.
11 SENATOR WEBB: Okay. We can follow up
12 offline about that, and also the nursing loan
13 forgiveness question.
14 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: And we'll
15 follow up on the second question.
16 SENATOR WEBB: Thank you so much.
17 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Sure.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
19 We go to Assemblyman Epstein.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: President
21 Linares, always good to see you.
22 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Same here.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: So 300,000
24 people in 2023 got financial assistance
197
1 through TAP. How many people applied for TAP
2 and were denied any TAP award?
3 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: The number of
4 students that applied for TAP --
5 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: In 2023 you said
6 300,000 students got TAP. How many were
7 denied TAP, denied any award at all?
8 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: We don't have
9 that number. We'll get back to you --
10 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Yeah, if you
11 could get back to me, I'd appreciate it.
12 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: -- on that,
13 yes.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: You know, part
15 of our concern is like not -- TAP not being
16 available to enough people. And that's the
17 theme that we've been hearing today.
18 So I want to know how you feel about
19 increasing the number of semesters that
20 people could get a TAP award for. Would you
21 support increasing it beyond eight semesters?
22 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Well, we know
23 that 12 credits per semester falls short in
24 terms of graduating, so that's --
198
1 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: President, I
2 don't have a lot of time, so do you think you
3 would support more semesters?
4 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Any effort
5 that you can come up with in the budgetary
6 process, along with the Governor, to help
7 enhance students getting that degree, will be
8 welcome.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Great. And so
10 that would include grad school, if we can get
11 TAP for grad school, additional semesters,
12 increasing the TAP awards, either on the high
13 end or the low end, you'd support anything to
14 get more people TAP?
15 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Yeah, when we
16 look at, you know, post-graduate education, I
17 think it becomes so important and critical,
18 especially given areas of needs within the
19 workforce -- all that is welcome, if we can
20 get additional support to enhance both
21 undergraduate and graduate education.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And then how
23 often do you hear from students about not
24 being able to continue on with their
199
1 education because they don't get enough TAP
2 award or they've run out of semesters? Is
3 that something your office hears regularly
4 about?
5 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Well, I must
6 say that as we are shifting our mission
7 within HESC to really make it strictly
8 informational and awareness for students and
9 families, we get a very powerful feedback and
10 excitement about students having an
11 opportunity to enter college. Especially now
12 that when we're expanding TAP to part-time,
13 we're getting strong feedback on that.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And just I want
15 to turn to Excelsior for a moment. Could we
16 find out how many people applied for
17 Excelsior but were turned down for Excelsior,
18 and kind of why the reasons they were turned
19 down?
20 Because we want to know if there are
21 gaps in the program that we can close up and
22 fix.
23 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Yes. I
24 mentioned the 29,000, but we'll get back to
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1 you. Thank you.
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
3 We go to Assemblywoman Hyndman.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Dr. Linares,
5 always good to see you.
6 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Same here.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: I was reading
8 your testimony, and I know this, but I just
9 wanted to highlight it, so maybe this is more
10 of a comment than a question.
11 But students attending non-degree
12 programs at SUNY or CUNY colleges will now be
13 able to access TAP. So I'm curious that it
14 wasn't expanded to proprietary colleges or
15 proprietary schools, who have to do a lot
16 more reporting than CUNY and SUNY. Like
17 every year, proprietary schools have to
18 report how many graduates, where those
19 graduates have been placed for workforce
20 development. And the proprietary colleges do
21 this constantly because of gainful employment
22 and the rules that are stringent around
23 gainful employment.
24 So I'm curious as to why TAP wasn't
201
1 expanded to part-time students at proprietary
2 colleges and why it's not been expanded to
3 proprietary schools.
4 I don't know -- I mean, as far as the
5 administration of that, I know it's -- you're
6 more carrying out the rules and regulations
7 as opposed to the expansion of it per se.
8 But I just think that because of the
9 reporting structures that State Education
10 Department puts on those two areas, as well
11 as federal requirements, they should have
12 been included for the non-degree part of TAP
13 as well as the expansion of part-time TAP to
14 proprietary colleges.
15 And I just want that on the record
16 as -- that education obviously is not just
17 SUNY and CUNY, it's obviously a whole sector
18 of education. When it comes to workforce
19 development, those institutions have to be on
20 record as far as where those students -- when
21 they graduate and where they end up, because
22 of federal reporting requirements. So I
23 think it's a disservice for New York State
24 not to expand it.
202
1 We will be meeting with, you know, the
2 Governor and working with our Higher
3 Education Chair Pat Fahy, of course, to
4 expand TAP to those sectors. So not really
5 your opinion, because, you know, I know you
6 do more of the oversight. But just curious
7 what --
8 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Regs and
9 regulation are an extension of the statute
10 that was passed by law, by the Legislature
11 and signed by the Governor.
12 So in that context, this initiative
13 which -- for non-degree students to be able
14 to access TAP is -- for the first time it's
15 being done and we're rolling it out now.
16 So --
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Yeah, I just
18 wondered what kind of oversight is that with
19 your office and, you know, making sure that
20 students are in programs that are credible
21 and, you know, results-oriented --
22 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: We've been
23 working all of last year, since this was
24 approved with SUNY and CUNY, to make sure
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1 that we roll it out now, this semester.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 We go to Assemblyman Eachus.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Thank you,
6 Madam Chair.
7 Let me start by saying this is the
8 middle of the school year. It is not too
9 late for this year.
10 With that being said, we don't know
11 each other personally, but I am a member or
12 the Higher Ed Committee and I'm also 40 years
13 a high school teacher teaching mostly
14 seniors, almost exclusively seniors.
15 And with that being said, I think you
16 also know -- I heard that you've been on this
17 side of the table before. I think you also
18 know that we, most of us if not all of us,
19 have a very special relationship with our
20 superintendents and our school boards. And
21 I've met with all of mine. And yet I'm
22 sitting here right now looking at NY FAFSA
23 READY, a program I've never heard of.
24 And so when we talk about boots on the
204
1 ground, I would think we would be a wonderful
2 resource. And this kind of goes along with
3 what Assemblymember Clark was talking
4 about -- not just having to pay people to go
5 out, but you have paid people who can go out
6 and help in this process.
7 I am assuming in your experience, like
8 mine -- I'm brand-new here --
9 superintendents, school boards respond to us
10 very well. And knowing -- having been in a
11 very, very urban school district, I know the
12 reticence of students and some parents not to
13 want to fill out these forms. And I think we
14 would have a much greater effect working for
15 you to get this information out.
16 And so what I ask is if you have
17 specific information, either E --
18 electronically or hard copy, I personally
19 would love to get it. I can't answer for any
20 other Assemblyperson or certainly Senator.
21 But perhaps you could send it to them and we
22 would be willing to be part of the boots on
23 the ground for you.
24 And that's goes with all your 28
205
1 scholarship programs and your website launch
2 and so on like that.
3 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: I couldn't
4 agree with you more in terms of where we
5 could make the greatest impact. Having been
6 a teacher and a school board member and
7 working closely with superintendents, the
8 importance of having superintendents and
9 principals on the frontline and working with
10 them -- so I couldn't agree more.
11 HESC EXEC. VP GONZALEZ: And I would
12 just like to add that we do a lot of outreach
13 already to the schools directly, to the
14 guidance counselors. But there's always room
15 for us to continue to expand that.
16 And one of the things we've been
17 working on directly with the chamber has been
18 to post a tile, one of the tiles on ny.gov
19 that would lead them directly to completing
20 FAFSA. So that anytime anybody goes to that
21 website, it will take them directly there.
22 So we will be notifying everyone here
23 about that.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Please do.
206
1 HESC EXEC. VP GONZALEZ: Yes,
2 absolutely.
3 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: I also plan
4 to work with the Commissioner of Education
5 moving forward to help address this also.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Thank you.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
8 Our last questioner is Assemblywoman
9 Simon.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
11 So A, first I want to just say that I
12 agree with my colleagues with regard to the
13 whole FAFSA support and increases in TAP
14 eligibility.
15 I have a very specific question with
16 regard to the District Attorney and Indigent
17 Legal Services Attorney Loan Forgiveness
18 Program, which is administered through HESC.
19 And, you know, law school tuition has grown
20 dramatically. Most of our lawyers get out
21 with an average of $130,000 worth of debt.
22 And currently this program that exists for
23 loan forgiveness really only provides them
24 with a maximum of $20,000 that they're
207
1 eligible for only for a period of six years.
2 There's a similar program for nurses
3 who graduate with an average debt of $55,000,
4 but they can get $40,000 worth of loan
5 reimbursement. And social workers, who
6 graduate with a debt of $76,000, can get up
7 to $26,000 worth of loan reimbursement.
8 Would you support an increase to this
9 program so that our lawyers, who are the
10 folks we rely on to represent indigent people
11 and prosecutors -- it's keeping people from
12 joining the field. We can't fill those jobs
13 and keep people in those jobs because of the
14 financial constraints. Would you support
15 increasing --
16 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Any effort to
17 help us reach -- especially in key areas of
18 needs and services that are provided across
19 New York State, would be welcome.
20 Of course, you know, any funding or
21 increase to those programs will come through
22 the budget process and the negotiations that
23 take place. But that will be welcome,
24 because the need is there. And I think it
208
1 will make a huge difference in terms of
2 attracting people to prepare for those
3 special-need areas.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So thank you.
6 Thank you for being here. And to the extent
7 that there are some questions that there
8 wasn't time for you to get your answers in --
9 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: We'll follow
10 up on them.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: -- please
12 forward those to Senator Krueger and myself,
13 and we'll make sure all our colleagues are
14 able to receive them.
15 Thank you for being here today.
16 HESC PRESIDENT LINARES: Thank you.
17 HESC EXEC. VP GONZALEZ: Thank you so
18 much.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Now we are
20 going to move to the nongovernmental portion
21 of our hearing. And the first, Panel B:
22 Professional Staff Congress, CUNY,
23 James Davis, president; United University
24 Professions, Frederick Kowal, president;
209
1 New York Community College Trustees,
2 Allen Williams, president; and Faculty
3 Federation of Erie Community College,
4 Andrew Sako, president.
5 So if -- when you come down, if you
6 can go in that order, that would be helpful.
7 (Pause.)
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Just a reminder
9 that presenters each have three minutes to
10 make their presentation. And when the four
11 of you finish, then there will be some
12 ability of members to ask questions again,
13 three minutes for both the question and the
14 answer.
15 And we've received all of your
16 testimony in writing in advance, so it would
17 be helpful to highlight, when you speak, the
18 portions so that we get to hear the meat of
19 your presentation.
20 With that, if we could start with the
21 Professional Staff Congress.
22 DR. DAVIS: Good afternoon,
23 Senate Chairpersons Krueger and Stavisky,
24 Assembly Chairpersons Weinstein and Fahy, and
210
1 all members of the committees.
2 Thank you for giving us the
3 opportunity to testify today and for your
4 critical support for public higher education.
5 I'm James Davis, president of the
6 Professional Staff Congress at CUNY.
7 The Legislature worked very hard in
8 the last two budget cycles on the process of
9 setting the City University back on course
10 after decades of disinvestment. More than
11 400 million in new annual operating aid has
12 entered CUNY. Without those resources, CUNY
13 would be in a far more precarious position.
14 We have seen 575 new full-time faculty
15 hired in the past two years, laudable efforts
16 to boost enrollment aided by enhancements to
17 the TAP program. PSC members are faculty and
18 professional staff who care deeply about
19 their students and about their disciplines.
20 They believe in CUNY's historic mission to
21 educate the children of the whole people of
22 New York, and they continue to make it
23 possible for CUNY to help propel more
24 students into the middle class than all the
211
1 Ivy League schools combined. And we love
2 what we do.
3 CUNY now faces financial pressures
4 that are frankly more intense than any that
5 I've seen in my 20 years as a faculty member
6 at Brooklyn College, and we need your
7 commitment and the Governor's for more
8 resources. Student enrollment is still not
9 quite back to where it was before the
10 pandemic, but it has rebounded. The crisis
11 that we're facing now is not a crisis of
12 enrollment, it's one of student attrition and
13 understaffing.
14 In the four years from 2018 to 2022,
15 CUNY experienced a net loss of 1313 full-time
16 employees. And that's even with the infusion
17 that I mentioned of over 500 new full-time
18 faculty members. Sharper cuts still have
19 fallen on the budgets for adjunct faculty and
20 other part-time staff. Enrollment, as I
21 said, is increasing at almost all CUNY
22 campuses, and applications for next fall, as
23 you may have seen, have hit an all-time high.
24 And the question is what awaits these
212
1 students. PSC members support our students'
2 academic and personal development, but they
3 cannot be effective in a chaotic environment
4 in which hundreds of classes are being
5 canceled up to a week before the semester
6 begins. Instructors come and go like through
7 a subway turnstile, and vacant staff
8 positions go unfilled by design.
9 You have my written testimony, so you
10 will be familiar with the nine, quote,
11 unquote, colleges of concern. These are
12 campuses where the university is clawing back
13 the budget --
14 (Timer sounds.)
15 DR. DAVIS: And since my time is up, I
16 will just close out by calling attention to
17 the fact that even at these nine colleges you
18 have classes, as I mentioned, being canceled
19 within a week of the semester. Places like
20 York College, Queens College, which was
21 established during the Great Depression --
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
23 DR. DAVIS: -- find that they need to
24 lay off even full-time faculty members on
213
1 short-term contracts before the semester
2 begins.
3 So we look forward --
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
5 DR. DAVIS: -- to working with you.
6 Thank you very much.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Sure. And as I
8 said, we have your written testimony, so try
9 and hit the highlights.
10 And UUP.
11 DR. KOWAL: Good afternoon. Thank you
12 all for giving me the opportunity to testify
13 today. My name is Dr. Frederick Kowal,
14 president of the United University
15 Professions.
16 You have my written testimony, so I
17 will only make two major points concerning
18 our priorities in this year's budget.
19 First, deepest thanks for the
20 Legislature's steadfast support for our
21 members' work. Last year's budget for SUNY
22 was historic. Your inclusion of $163 million
23 in operating aid was vital.
24 However, Chancellor King and
214
1 SUNY leadership failed to utilize these funds
2 to address the structural deficits at
3 19 campuses. It is why this year we are
4 asking that the final budget include
5 $139 million directly allocated to the
6 18 campuses now facing structural deficits.
7 This is urgently needed to stop SUNY's
8 irresponsible steps which have eliminated
9 programs at Potsdam and Fredonia and brought
10 about retrenchments at Potsdam. We fear
11 additional campuses will face such cuts,
12 further harming the SUNY system and
13 eliminating access and opportunity for
14 thousands of New Yorkers.
15 Second, regarding the announced plan
16 to close the hospital at SUNY Downstate HSC.
17 This poorly designed plan included no input
18 from the community of Central Brooklyn or
19 from any of the stakeholders. It was drafted
20 in secrecy. The announcement yesterday that
21 SUNY will hold, quote, five themed focus
22 groups and stakeholder sessions, quote, is
23 further evidence that the leadership of SUNY
24 is approaching the legitimate concerns,
215
1 fears, and anger elicited by their
2 announcement to close the hospital with
3 arrogance and disrespect.
4 With the plan to close the hospital
5 already announced, any discussion with the
6 community only serves as a smokescreen for
7 this disastrous plan. The result of the
8 closure of Downstate will bring incalculable
9 harm to the health of Central Brooklyn. This
10 community needs more and better healthcare,
11 not less.
12 For SUNY to abandon the hospital and
13 claim that it is necessary due to the
14 previous underinvestment by the state is a
15 failure of vision and a willful disregard of
16 the impacts of this decision not only on the
17 health of the community but also on the
18 education taking place at Downstate's medical
19 school.
20 In conclusion, as President John F.
21 Kennedy once stated concerning civil rights:
22 "We are confronted primarily with a moral
23 issue." The people of Central Brooklyn and
24 the students at the medical college there
216
1 deserve the best the state can do, and that
2 means an end to plans to close Downstate
3 Hospital and instead for all stakeholders to
4 come together and create a path with
5 investment by the state to improve and
6 modernize the facility and to address the
7 long-term health crisis in the
8 African-American community there.
9 The task is before us. Let us embrace
10 it with vision, alacrity, and determination.
11 Thank you.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
13 New York Community College Trustees.
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Good afternoon. My
15 name is Allen Williams. I am the board chair
16 of Monroe Community College in Rochester,
17 New York, and also the chair of the New York
18 Community College Trustees.
19 I'm speaking here today on behalf of
20 NYCCT, the statewide organization that
21 represents 300 trustees of the 30 community
22 colleges in the SUNY system.
23 I'm here today asking for an increase
24 of 97 million in the base operating aid for
217
1 the 30 community colleges in the SUNY system.
2 And that ask is predicated on the fact that
3 over the past 20 years, community colleges
4 saw a disinvestment of 2.5 billion versus the
5 SUNY four-year institutions.
6 The SUNY community colleges educate
7 more than 174,000 students, representing
8 45 percent of the total SUNY undergraduate
9 population. Yet our students are not
10 supported equitably. A four-year SUNY
11 college receives about $19,000 in student
12 aid, while a community college student or
13 community college receives about $2600 in
14 direct student aid from the state, coupled
15 with another $2900 in aid from our local
16 sponsors, the counties.
17 And while we support the level of
18 investment and commitment that SUNY has given
19 to the four-year institutions, we ask that
20 the same level of commitment in support be
21 extended to the community colleges.
22 And in return for that 97 million of
23 increase in our basic operating need, here is
24 what we can deliver. Our presidents have
218
1 pioneered what is called the Empire State
2 Community Workforce Guarantee. It's an
3 initiative designed to enable community
4 colleges to train and educate about
5 20,000 students per year across the state in
6 various workforce development fields
7 including nursing, cybersecurity, advanced
8 manufacturing, and automotive technology.
9 According to New York State law -- and
10 it's something that I've heard you talk about
11 or reference here today -- New York City
12 Education Law 6304 governs the financing of
13 community colleges. The funding model should
14 be equally distributed: A third from the
15 state, a third from the local sponsor, the
16 county, and a third from student tuition.
17 But based on the latest available
18 data, community college students bear the
19 highest share, 38 percent, followed by local
20 counties, 34 percent, and the state's share
21 paying the lowest of 28 percent.
22 Okay.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
24 And last.
219
1 MR. SAKO: Good afternoon,
2 Chairpersons Krueger, Weinstein, honorable
3 members of the Legislature, and distinguished
4 staff. I'm Andrew Sako. I'm the president
5 of the Faculty Federation of Erie Community
6 College, and I'm also a NYSUT board member
7 that represents community colleges.
8 I want to thank you all for what you
9 did last year on crafting the enacted budget,
10 but specifically for standing firm on the
11 funding for which -- have the hold harmless
12 language for community colleges which was
13 critical to all of our institutions. So
14 thank you for that.
15 What we do as community colleges. As
16 stated by others, community colleges educate
17 and prepare students for both the workforce
18 and provide a foundation for those seeking to
19 move to four-year institutions. Community
20 colleges are also -- have been economic
21 engines for our communities.
22 Our enrollment post-COVID -- community
23 colleges bore the brunt of the enrollment
24 declines. However, we are now seeing signs
220
1 of enrollment increases. As stated earlier
2 and as stated by my colleague next to me, the
3 statutory support for the state -- the state
4 is not matching, and for open enrollment
5 institutions it should be 40 percent. And
6 the state has not met that operating need, or
7 come nowhere close to that, and students are
8 bearing more of the brunt of this operating
9 cost.
10 I also want to -- I'm encouraged to
11 hear the announcement that we have the
12 ASAP program, and that really helps with our
13 students being able to finish and with
14 retention. However, we really need to
15 encourage you to provide more money in that
16 area, 100 million to expand the model that
17 CUNY successfully had the ASAP at their
18 community colleges.
19 We're disappointed that only 13 of the
20 30 community colleges were included in this
21 particular funding model. We would also
22 welcome the opportunity in any process to
23 design and create a funding model that works
24 for the institutions to give us a realistic
221
1 realignment of monies that we need in order
2 to maintain and progress for the students
3 that are going to be serving in the future.
4 We must work to insulate community
5 colleges from the short-term enrollment
6 fluctuations and prepare them for the
7 long-term growth and sustainability that we
8 all want for our communities.
9 Thank you.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
11 So we go to questions from members,
12 and start first with our chair of Higher
13 Education, Pat Fahy.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you. Thank
15 you, Chair, and thank you to the entire
16 panel. I know we're now on the much shorter
17 time limit.
18 Let me start with both presidents
19 of -- President Kowal and President Davis
20 regarding the comments and obviously the
21 concerns. And we've talked a lot this
22 morning about the years of disinvestment in
23 SUNY and CUNY. Can you briefly recommend or
24 talk about the investments that are needed?
222
1 And I know President Davis in particular,
2 given that the contract agreement is not
3 finished yet, how that may or may not affect
4 our budget timeline.
5 But if you can talk about the overall
6 needs and what your specific recommendations
7 are on the operating dollars, as well as some
8 of the capital dollars -- we haven't talked
9 about that -- and I will watch the time.
10 Thank you.
11 DR. DAVIS: Thank you for the
12 question.
13 As you observed, we are in the middle
14 of contract negotiations, and I'm hopeful for
15 a good outcome. I was glad to see the
16 university make the request for funding for
17 the contract.
18 We have five areas of priority in
19 terms of operating aid. The practice under
20 the prior Executive of not funding collective
21 bargaining agreements ate into and undermined
22 the budgets severely over time. So a return
23 to funding -- contractual increases,
24 mandatory costs -- is welcome.
223
1 We are seeking operating aid to
2 improve our students' ability to have contact
3 with full-time faculty members. That
4 would -- I'm going to put out big numbers,
5 because this would require transformative
6 investments, $385 million across the system
7 in recurring aid.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Can I let Fred
9 have a chance to --
10 DR. DAVIS: You want to jump in on
11 Fred? Okay, I'll let you go there.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you. Thank
13 you so much. I'm watching the time.
14 DR. KOWAL: Yeah, I would reiterate
15 the $139 million needed to remove the
16 long-term debts faced by the campuses that I
17 mentioned earlier.
18 But in addition, transformative
19 funding. The 100 million, expanding the
20 amount that the Governor has proposed and
21 that was in last year's budget.
22 Thirdly, I was glad to hear that the
23 chancellor supports opportunity programs. We
24 should fund those programs to a larger
224
1 extent, 20 million more for those programs,
2 not just undo the Governor's cuts.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: And I want to
4 continue the conversation on
5 Downstate Hospital. Thank you for your
6 comments. You know, we definitely need the
7 alternatives.
8 We have 24 seconds left for community
9 colleges, which -- so pleased to hear so much
10 about today. Can we talk about the
11 97 million and what that's composed of,
12 please? President Williams.
13 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm sorry. The
14 97 million would go towards the base
15 operating aid. And what it would do, it
16 would basically bring the state's
17 contribution up to the same level as the
18 counties, and getting to the point of --
19 well, pretty much in line with the State
20 Education Law at 33 percent.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thirty-three
22 percent. Thank you.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you, Chair.
225
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
2 To the Senate?
3 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Senator Toby
4 Stavisky.
5 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you,
6 gentlemen. Real quick.
7 First, President Davis, obviously we
8 discussed the collective bargaining
9 requirements and the need to provide funding
10 for it. Let me go to the conversation we had
11 on the nine distressed schools at CUNY, and
12 particularly the loss of faculty members at a
13 school -- where I went for graduate school,
14 Queens College. And that December -- the
15 nonrenewal of the contracts.
16 DR. DAVIS: I think it's important to
17 understand that this took place midyear, in
18 the context of cuts that universities sought
19 from the entire system, on the scale of
20 $128 million in savings in fiscal '24.
21 And then, in addition to that, midyear
22 the university pursued additional cuts at
23 these nine campuses.
24 As you pointed out, I mean, it's
226
1 really unfortunately normal for there to be a
2 lot of churn among contingent faculty and
3 staff. What was striking about what happened
4 at Queens College is that we lost
5 26 full-time faculty members who were on
6 short-term contracts. They teach four
7 classes a semester. Never mind the impact on
8 them and their families, you're talking about
9 104 sections of classes that students are
10 going to then have to scramble to find
11 substitutes.
12 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
13 DR. DAVIS: Thank you.
14 SENATOR STAVISKY: And
15 President Kowal, I don't know if you heard
16 Chancellor King's responses to our questions
17 about Downstate. But in the remaining
18 1 minute 18 seconds, will you comment on the
19 proposal for -- add to what you would have
20 normally said on Downstate.
21 DR. KOWAL: Thank you very much.
22 Yes, I did hear what the chancellor
23 said. It's very disconcerting to hear the
24 various ways that this transformation is
227
1 supposed to be taking place. I heard, for
2 instance, that there would be weeks during
3 which time our highly trained professionals
4 who care for that community would be finding
5 jobs elsewhere. I heard that these hearings
6 or these meetings would be over the next two
7 months. What is the rush?
8 The plan was developed in secret, and
9 there was no consultation. I will state
10 categorically I have met with the chancellor
11 every month since he arrived. At no point
12 was there any specific discussion about a
13 plan going forward. It was simply stated:
14 We have to talk about Downstate, because it's
15 a problem.
16 We in UUP have proposed plans and
17 changes at Downstate. For the 10 years that
18 I've been president, we have been seeking a
19 partner. We've never had one. To have it
20 dropped on us -- just like you, Senator, I
21 got the phone call on the M.L. King holiday
22 at 9:30 p.m. informing me that the plan was
23 being announced. That's not the way we
24 should do business on a hospital that serves
228
1 this community.
2 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 We go to Assemblywoman Clark.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK: Hello.
6 All right, I'm going to start with a
7 quick yes-or-no question. We've had a lot of
8 conversations; we know enrollment is key in
9 getting enrollment not just up to the levels
10 it was before COVID, but even past it.
11 I think a robust, strong public system
12 is -- higher education system is critically
13 important for our -- our -- and for us as a
14 State Legislature to invest in those who are
15 part of it.
16 So my first question is, if we were to
17 increase the income threshold for TAP, if we
18 were to increase the minimum award, if we
19 were to remove the independent/dependent
20 issue, if we were to allow fees to be
21 covered, if we were to allow graduate
22 students to use it and expanded semesters,
23 would it increase enrollment across your
24 state universities or -- you know, or through
229
1 SUNY?
2 DR. KOWAL: Yes.
3 DR. DAVIS: Yes.
4 MR. SAKO: I would say yes as well.
5 MR. WILLIAMS: I would say yes also,
6 with some caveats.
7 (Laughter.)
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK: Always,
9 President Williams. Which I'm going to get
10 to you now. Thank you for that.
11 I think we all agree, too, and I think
12 it's our obligation to really do that and
13 ensure more families take advantage of it and
14 can use it, and more students.
15 To the community colleges, I
16 wholeheartedly agree on increasing the
17 operating to match what the counties give and
18 really making it more in line with those who
19 go to SUNY in terms of what we give as a body
20 to support those students.
21 But I really also want to get on the
22 capital side, particularly around the
23 workforce training certificate programs. All
24 those things that we are seeing huge
230
1 increases in. And we know there's no Micron
2 without it, we know there's no future in AI
3 without it. These are -- our community
4 colleges are really the puzzle piece to
5 connect all of that.
6 So, you know, we know MCC is really
7 trying to move their applied technologies and
8 that whole thing onto their campus at MCC,
9 but it's a capital cost. And they just don't
10 seem to have access to the same kind of
11 capital dollars that maybe a SUNY campus
12 does. Yet we know that kind of place is
13 critical to fill this workforce need that we
14 know we're going to have.
15 So can you talk a little bit about
16 that?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. And to your
18 point, too, the way that the capital is
19 allocated, or capital -- more so down at the
20 community colleges, are different than the
21 four-year institutions.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK: Exactly.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Because the capital
24 works at community colleges -- in large part,
231
1 it's based on what the counties can do. And
2 in a case like Monroe, we have been fortunate
3 that the county is in good financial shape.
4 So when we go to the county with our capital
5 proposals, more often than not they say yes.
6 But there are some colleges, for
7 example, where I know they can't -- you know,
8 they can't pave their parking lot because
9 their counties can't afford to do it. So,
10 you know, that's another issue that we at
11 some point in time have to address.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK: We do need to
13 look at that capital piece for community
14 colleges.
15 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CLARK: Thank you.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
18 Senate?
19 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Senator Robert
20 Jackson.
21 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you. So I'm
22 just considering the bucket that you're in
23 right now. This is a bucket. And basically
24 the water has been poured out, and you're
232
1 drying up and you may perish.
2 I mean, I know what the state budget
3 is. The Executive put it out,
4 $232.7 billion. The reserve is 20 billion.
5 And I heard the chancellor talk about
6 a transition, but there's really no details
7 in the transition, just general things like
8 that. And I know that UUP has
9 approximately -- how many members there,
10 3,000? PEF has 400. But thousands and
11 thousands of patients.
12 And so they're going to move one
13 section over to Kings -- King, what is it?
14 Kings County Hospital. And someone testified
15 that the space is -- where are they going to
16 put it at? I mean, this is not the way to do
17 business. Let me just say that.
18 So I ask you to reach out to all of
19 your members and ask them to reach out to
20 every -- no matter where they live at, to
21 reach out to every State Senator, to every
22 State Assemblymember, in order to try to keep
23 the pressure on us and the Executive, meaning
24 our Governor, Kathy Hochul.
233
1 I mean, because everyone, I would
2 think, wanted to work out in a transition in
3 order to rehab, rebuild. And it's going to
4 cost, yes, but it's going to cost more when
5 people are dying, and people are going to
6 lose their jobs. And people may say, no, no
7 one's going to die. I hope not. But the way
8 we're going, we're just saying anything in
9 order to just try to get over. And I'm not
10 about that.
11 So I'm here listening to what you have
12 to say so that I can go back in the
13 Democratic Conference and speak up on behalf
14 of the patients that are going to be thrown
15 around at different locations and, not really
16 in my opinion, dealt with like they're
17 supposed to. And all of the staff, and the
18 people that you represent. And they're like
19 up in arms, I'm sure, because I would be.
20 But I say this to you, this is not the
21 way to do business. And I look forward to
22 working with you and all of your members in
23 order to communicate to the Executive and her
24 staff and to the leaders of the Senate and
234
1 the Assembly that we have to fix this and
2 we've got to do it right.
3 DR. KOWAL: Certainly, Senator. I
4 appreciate your support and all of the
5 support that we have heard from legislators,
6 from the community.
7 The community is up in arms.
8 Certainly our members are very concerned.
9 First and foremost, our concern is about the
10 community that we serve and the healing, the
11 work that goes on there at Downstate. To
12 have it abandoned is just totally
13 unacceptable.
14 SENATOR JACKSON: And I don't live in
15 Brooklyn.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
17 We go to Assemblyman Gray.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN GRAY: Thank you very
19 much, everyone, for being here today.
20 So first, President Kowal, you've been
21 critical of the allocation of last year's
22 aid, and particularly with the Potsdam issue,
23 which I represent Potsdam. So do you want to
24 elaborate a little bit on that?
235
1 And then I'm going to go right to
2 Dr. Williams, because -- or excuse me,
3 President Williams -- because I want you to
4 talk about FTEs and the aid is based on FTEs.
5 Right? So an FTE can be three people. So it
6 requires, right, a significant amount of
7 staffing to deal with three people, but the
8 aid is based on just one particular FTE.
9 So thank you.
10 DR. KOWAL: Yes, thank you very much,
11 Assemblyman.
12 With regard to Potsdam and the
13 distribution of funds, what we were calling
14 for -- and what we saw, in fact, very
15 strongly supported in the Legislature -- was
16 that there be created this $161 million fund
17 to get the campuses that were suffering from
18 deficits out of those deficits, and then plan
19 moving forward for a sustainable future.
20 When SUNY did not do that, then to
21 press a campus like Potsdam to immediately
22 come up with a plan to deal with the
23 shortfall is going to lead to the mistakes
24 which were made, and now to retrenchments,
236
1 which means tenured faculty and professional
2 staff losing their jobs and the community
3 impacted.
4 You I'm sure know that you don't do
5 strategic planning under the gun of a
6 financial crisis. You take care of the
7 crisis first, and then you plan on going
8 forward. The plan will be much better and
9 much more sustainable. That's what we
10 continue to call for.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN GRAY: Thank you.
12 Appreciate it.
13 Mr. Williams?
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Right. In terms of
15 FTEs, correct, you're correct. So there are
16 three FTEs, basically -- three part-time FTEs
17 equals one full-time FTE, if you would.
18 However, if you get a part-time
19 student, they still have access to the same
20 sorts of services, the same facilities, as
21 does a full-time student. So if a student
22 comes in, like, half-time or taking one
23 credit course, they still go to the library,
24 they still have access to all of the other
237
1 facilities that the institution provides.
2 So we can't --
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRAY: You don't give
4 them a third of the time --
5 MR. WILLIAMS: Right. You don't give
6 them a third of the time --
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRAY: -- of a counselor,
8 right?
9 MR. WILLIAMS: Correct. Exactly.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRAY: So you really
11 have to -- you really have to look at
12 head count versus FTEs --
13 MR. WILLIAMS: Right.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRAY: -- in a lot of
15 cases, especially in the community colleges.
16 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
17 And the other thing, too, when you
18 start to look at the non-credit programs,
19 like a dental hygienist or a nurse or nursing
20 programs, those programs are not counted in
21 our head count. But we still have to provide
22 those services.
23 And in order for those students to
24 take those courses, it depends -- it will
238
1 depend on whether or not we get outside
2 grants, or the student has to pay the higher
3 tuition rate, which causes -- and that is
4 really sort of the limiting factor for
5 expansion of a lot of those programs.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRAY: Thank you.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
8 We go to the Senate now.
9 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
10 Senator Lea Webb.
11 SENATOR WEBB: Thank you all for being
12 here.
13 You know, again, I'm going to extend
14 my full support to everyone. You know, I'm a
15 former -- well, I'll say current UUP member
16 as, Fred, you also remarked.
17 I just have two questions, one with
18 regards to the $139 million. And I tried to
19 ask this of the chancellor and ran out of
20 time.
21 But what is the recommendation moving
22 forward in regards to, again -- we do a lot
23 of advocacy in the Legislature. We were
24 successful last year, as an example, to push
239
1 for more operational capital funding. And
2 then we're here, and so we don't quite find
3 out what happened with those funds. And
4 so -- and then we hear news of closures.
5 And so I wanted to know if you could
6 elaborate on that. That's my question for
7 you.
8 And I have a question for Mr. Williams
9 with regards to the community college
10 funding. You know, again, I'm a community
11 college graduate myself. I know firsthand
12 that our community colleges have been
13 significantly underfunded. And yet they are
14 paramount in a lot of the workforce
15 development initiatives that we're looking to
16 continue to do in the state.
17 I know that you mentioned the
18 community colleges -- the community college
19 workforce guarantee. So I wanted to know if
20 you could elaborate on that as well.
21 Thank you.
22 DR. KOWAL: Well, first, on the
23 distribution of the 163 million, I can tell
24 you what the chancellor has shared with me
240
1 and what we have seen in the documents that
2 came out of SUNY.
3 The first step they did was they took
4 a portion of that funding and treated it as
5 if it was tuition increase for a tuition
6 increase that you all correctly opposed and
7 did not pass. So in other words, they
8 allocated those funds to the largest
9 campuses, the University Centers -- which,
10 fine, they need support too. But it also
11 meant that the financial distribution was
12 skewed in the direction of the biggest
13 campuses and those that are doing very well
14 in terms of enrollment.
15 The second point is -- and I think
16 it's just as important -- is as we discussed
17 the rolling out of these resources, when we
18 do so, it can and does exacerbate a situation
19 of underfunding over the years. And that's
20 what we're facing, and that's why we're back
21 demanding another allocation of funds for
22 those struggling campuses.
23 SENATOR WEBB: And then with the
24 remaining time --
241
1 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, what the guarantee
2 does, or says, is that in return for the
3 97 million, we, the community colleges, can
4 produce 20,000 students, career-ready
5 students per year to fill those jobs that are
6 in high demand.
7 And it parallels to a large extent
8 what the Governor has in her proposal, which
9 she calls the On Ramp program. Which I think
10 she was -- the commitment is, or we're
11 thinking about committing $200 million to
12 that.
13 Well, we can do it. The community
14 colleges have the experience, we have the
15 expertise. We also have the infrastructure
16 in place to do it.
17 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry, I have
18 to cut you off. Thank you.
19 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
21 We go to Assemblyman Smullen.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: Great, thanks a
23 lot.
24 I just want to very quickly go back to
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1 community college and the relationship
2 through programs like P-TECH, with Early
3 College High Schools.
4 You know, in rural areas -- I
5 sponsored a rural equity initiative this past
6 year to go out and listen all around the
7 state to what the needs are. And one of the
8 things I heard was that this idea of blending
9 high school and colleges is a decent idea,
10 especially in rural areas where the expertise
11 to teach in a particular area might be in the
12 community college or might be in the SUNY
13 campus nearby.
14 So I wanted to get some of your
15 thoughts about breaking the silos down
16 between K-12 and community colleges and
17 particularly rural SUNYs, but it also may
18 apply to CUNYs as well. Because if we've got
19 someone that can teach a class and we've got
20 students that need that class, then I think
21 we ought to -- we may need to figure out a
22 way to get the two together, whether it's
23 bringing the professor to the high school or
24 the student to the college, so they can get
243
1 that expertise to keep them on a level
2 playing field with all of the other, you
3 know, educational programs we have in the
4 state.
5 I'd like to get your thoughts. I want
6 to first start with Fred, thanks.
7 DR. KOWAL: Yeah, I think that the
8 absolute necessity for the -- for us all to
9 understand the economic impact of the
10 campuses upstate, SUNY -- both community
11 college and the state ops -- in upstate rural
12 communities is just immense. I live in
13 Cobleskill. It's a very small rural town.
14 The reality is the campus is the economy, for
15 all intents and purposes.
16 In order for us to be able to expand
17 educational opportunities, you are absolutely
18 correct. There needs to be a reimagining of
19 how we can deliver that so more can take
20 advantage of it. Absolutely.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: President
22 Williams, can I get your thoughts here?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, and I -- to pick
24 up first on your -- you were talking about
244
1 the equity initiative.
2 I can say that at community colleges
3 we enroll and service more Black students,
4 more Latino students, more Asian students and
5 more white students from the rural areas than
6 do our four-year counterparts. In this, the
7 97 million really would go a long way to
8 helping us expand those opportunities and
9 those reach-outs for those students,
10 especially in the rural areas.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: Yeah. I really
12 want to talk a little bit more, too, about
13 the actual percentage model. You know, from
14 my point of view the state ought to be
15 picking up 50 percent of the share, the
16 student -- or the -- then the community
17 should be picking up a smaller share,
18 25 percent. And the student should be
19 picking up the least amount of the share.
20 That seems to me the way that's more
21 equitable, particularly for these students
22 that I have in mind that I think they exist
23 all over the state. And, you know, then we
24 wouldn't have to be digging so hard for TAP
245
1 and for Excelsior and all these other things
2 if we guaranteed that the community college
3 students would have the lion's share, just
4 like K-12 education picked up by, writ large,
5 the state.
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. Because in the
7 absence, in this case, of the 97 million, we
8 would be forced to increase tuition.
9 And if you look at the overall
10 economic or income demographic of our
11 community college students, we service and
12 enroll -- a higher percentage of our students
13 are Pell-eligible --
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Senator O'Mara,
16 three minutes.
17 SENATOR O'MARA: Yes, thank you.
18 Thank you all for your testimony.
19 Thank you for the work that you do, and
20 particularly the work of your membership,
21 that they do across the state in this great
22 work.
23 I want to direct my question regarding
24 community colleges to President Williams, if
246
1 I may. You mentioned a -- I understand your
2 request to get back to a third, a third, a
3 third, and that's $97 million to do that, to
4 make that equitable.
5 But you also discussed some numbers
6 about the disparity in state aid to a
7 community college student per year versus a
8 four-year student at SUNY, and that seemed to
9 be quite a bit off. I think your numbers
10 were $19,000 on average for a four-year
11 student, so just under $5,000 a year?
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Correct.
13 SENATOR O'MARA: And what were your
14 numbers for a community college student?
15 MR. WILLIAMS: The community college
16 student -- the total support is about 5500.
17 Twenty-six of that is from the state; 2900 or
18 so, based on the 2021-'22 year, came from the
19 local sponsors, the county.
20 SENATOR O'MARA: So more from the
21 county than from the state.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
23 SENATOR O'MARA: And just a little bit
24 more than half per year from the state
247
1 towards that -- towards the student in a
2 four-year school versus the two-year school?
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, the student is
4 38 percent. Right, the students pick up --
5 SENATOR O'MARA: I want to get at the
6 dollar amount you said.
7 MR. WILLIAMS: The dollar amount?
8 Well, the dollar amount overall is -- well,
9 580 million for the -- for the student,
10 525 --
11 SENATOR O'MARA: I'm talking the state
12 aid. The state aid --
13 MR. WILLIAMS: State aid.
14 SENATOR O'MARA: -- for a community
15 college student per year.
16 MR. WILLIAMS: 248. 248 million
17 overall.
18 SENATOR O'MARA: No, individual
19 student.
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Individual student?
21 About 26 -- $2600 per year in state aid.
22 SENATOR O'MARA: Okay. So just over
23 5000 for two years.
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. Correct.
248
1 SENATOR O'MARA: For the two-year
2 term.
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Correct.
4 SENATOR O'MARA: When it's $19,000 for
5 the four-year. And so roughly 4,750 for that
6 state student.
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
8 SENATOR O'MARA: It just seems to me
9 that our community colleges are targeted
10 towards those less able to afford to go to a
11 four-year school, those less likely to go to
12 a four-year school. And we want to give
13 them, I would think, a greater benefit to get
14 them at least in the door to try to get that
15 first two years in, and then maybe go further
16 after that.
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
18 SENATOR O'MARA: So it seems to me
19 it's clear that that state assistance portion
20 should be increased. And I agree with you.
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. Yes.
22 And what I was saying before, we have
23 a larger percentage of our students who are
24 Pell-eligible or Pell recipients, and we use
249
1 Pell as a proxy or an indicator of household
2 income. And for a student who receives Pell,
3 they are at the lowest end of the household
4 income scale. Yet without this increase, if
5 you would, we are forced to raise our tuition
6 again.
7 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
10 Epstein.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: I just want to
12 thank you all for being here.
13 It sounds like we all want more
14 students in the system. We want to increase
15 TAP awards. We want to raise the floor,
16 access more TAP. And the EOP program, it
17 sounds like there's consensus on that.
18 Is that what I'm hearing so far today?
19 MR. WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: On the CUNY
21 side, we have an issue. We've been raising
22 additional funds for CUNY, but we've seen in
23 the city not -- a cut in the program.
24 James, like what do we -- you know,
250
1 how do we get a maintenance of effort if
2 we're raising more money and they're cutting
3 services? What can we do?
4 DR. DAVIS: Thanks for that question,
5 Assemblymember.
6 Yeah, I've scratched my head a number
7 of times about how a graduate, a two-time
8 graduate of CUNY continues to make cuts to
9 the City University.
10 But look, I think in fact that there's
11 a lot that all of us can do, city and the
12 state, to help to address issues around
13 retaining the students that come. And you
14 will have noticed, if you saw the
15 university's "Stabilizing the University's
16 Finances," I think was the title of their
17 report, staggering numbers around student
18 retention which I'm sure are not unique to
19 CUNY.
20 But they lose -- the CUNY system, we
21 have seven community colleges -- lose
22 40 percent of students between Year 1 and
23 Year 2. That shouldn't be that way. The
24 four-year colleges lose 20 percent of their
251
1 students between Year 1 and Year 2. I mean,
2 research is very clear about what it takes to
3 retain those students.
4 So it's wonderful, and we should work
5 harder to figure out how to bring new
6 students in. But what are we going to do
7 when they get there, I feel like is an
8 underexamined part of the equation.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: So there isn't
10 enough resources to support the students
11 while they're there. You're saying that
12 those student-to-faculty ratios or the
13 student support, mentoring programs --
14 DR. DAVIS: Absolutely. All of the
15 above. I think research shows access to
16 full-time faculty, access to mental health
17 counselors. If there's issues of food
18 insecurity, whether those are addressed. And
19 academic advising.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And do you see
21 the same thing as at CUNY? Is it
22 like there's some issues -- not the cuts
23 issue, but kind of the maintaining students
24 at the campuses?
252
1 DR. KOWAL: Absolutely. And that is
2 the most direct way of understanding why we
3 constantly ask for more operating aid. It is
4 to get the resources in place in terms of
5 professionals who can provide the support
6 network to keep students enrolled. Retention
7 is the overriding concern at most of the
8 campuses.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: So the last
10 thing is -- we heard a lot about capital
11 needs from both the SUNY and the CUNY system.
12 Do you support increasing capital, whether it
13 is infrastructure for the buildings, moving
14 to a greener, cleaner environment -- you
15 know, we've heard a lot about that today.
16 DR. KOWAL: Certainly. Especially if
17 it's key to the sustainable clean structures
18 and so forth, absolutely.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you all.
20 DR. DAVIS: We do as well. Yeah, we
21 support the university's capital request.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
24 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Senator Murray.
253
1 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you,
2 Chairwoman.
3 Thank you, and I'll apologize ahead of
4 time; I slipped in a little late. But I had
5 read over, Mr. Williams, your testimony
6 already.
7 I have a quick question. And I know a
8 lot of the focus is on obviously the finances
9 and tuition and all of this. But I want to
10 talk more about the type of students that are
11 coming.
12 There's a misconception that BOCES and
13 CTE students don't go on to a further higher
14 education. Do you see that there is a good
15 number? I know the enrollment now is down,
16 but do you see -- and this is for anyone.
17 Are you seeing that there is a good number of
18 BOCES and CTE kids that go on to community
19 college?
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. Yes, there is.
21 And one of the things that I talked
22 about before is there are a lot of students
23 who are coming out of BOCES or the CTE
24 programs that are going into our workforce
254
1 development programs. And unfortunately, a
2 lot of the programs -- or students in the
3 workforce development curriculum are not
4 counted into our standard enrollment. And
5 that's a big problem.
6 It's something I call, like, our ghost
7 enrollment. And it's a growing piece. As
8 more and more students go into, again, in
9 healthcare fields -- nursing, dental
10 hygienist -- HVAC, automotive technology. A
11 lot of these programs are maybe from eight
12 to -- or six to 18 months, and these students
13 are outside of what you would think of as the
14 normal enrollment program.
15 But students come out -- even before
16 they graduate, they come out maybe sixty,
17 $70,000 a year. And it makes a big
18 difference. And it's a growing share of our
19 overall population or enrollment. But
20 unfortunately, they get very little -- they
21 get no state support. So it's really -- the
22 support really comes down to either grants
23 they receive either locally or nationally, or
24 a greater share of the cost for those
255
1 programs are borne by the students
2 themselves.
3 SENATOR MURRAY: I have about a minute
4 left. And quickly, a question that I asked
5 earlier to Chancellor King was in regards to
6 public-private partnerships.
7 Now, in Suffolk Community College the
8 trade unions and Orsted all put together a
9 training program regarding wind turbines.
10 And, I mean, that's forward thinking. That's
11 great stuff. Are we seeing more of that,
12 more partnerships with -- whether it's labor
13 unions or the private sector?
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, we are.
15 And I can think about colleges like
16 Mohawk Valley Community College,
17 Hudson Valley Community College. Monroe
18 Community College, for example, as well as
19 Erie Community College. All of the colleges
20 in the SUNY system are beginning to develop
21 more and more public-private partnerships to
22 train and educate their potential workforce.
23 SENATOR MURRAY: That's great.
24 Thank you very much. Keep up the
256
1 great work.
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Assembly.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
5 Assemblywoman Forrest.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST: Thank you.
7 So I have -- thank you to the whole
8 panel, but I have specific questions for
9 President Davis and President Kowal. Okay,
10 let me start with President Kowal.
11 From what we heard from
12 Chancellor King this morning, the building's
13 falling apart -- Downstate, meaning SUNY
14 Downstate, the building's falling apart, we
15 might as well throw the whole kit and
16 kaboodle away.
17 Can you report back from your
18 membership what is the actual condition of
19 the building? And if you have a dollar
20 amount, give us some numbers.
21 DR. KOWAL: Thank you very much.
22 I would recommend that all members of
23 the State Legislature who are concerned about
24 this issue tour the hospital.
257
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST: Yeah.
2 DR. KOWAL: I was there last week. It
3 is not about to collapse. It is not falling
4 to pieces. It certainly was more than enough
5 to serve as a COVID-only facility that saved
6 our lives. And there are sections of the
7 hospital that are basically brand-new. The
8 transplant center. There's a wing of the
9 transplant center -- there's two sections,
10 and the transplant center is brand new.
11 They in fact have a new boiler system.
12 I wasn't sure what he was talking about in
13 terms of the cold, damp temperature.
14 And also the number that is being used
15 in terms of the number of patients. The
16 administration as well as our members are
17 reporting there's over 200 patients in that
18 hospital, and they have been there in terms
19 of rolling numbers, but obviously over
20 200 for the past two months. And so it is
21 not as, you know, calamitous a situation as
22 previously stated.
23 And furthermore, yes, there has been a
24 lack of investment in the hospital. We know
258
1 this. But you don't abandon the hospital
2 because of errors that were made by a
3 previous administration. You invest in it
4 because of its central role in both education
5 and healthcare.
6 But with that, I do want to yield to
7 my colleagues.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST: Thank you so
9 much, President Kowal.
10 President Davis, yesterday I heard
11 from the CUNY crew that said that one of
12 their initiatives to improve efficiency is to
13 downsize classes -- increase class size,
14 sorry. Can you tell me what impact would
15 that have on especially nontraditional
16 students who need those sections to be open
17 to even go to school?
18 DR. DAVIS: Thanks for the question.
19 I mean, I think it raises two
20 concerns. One is pedagogical: What's the
21 proper size of a class, and who determines
22 that? Traditionally, and for good reason,
23 that has been established by professionals
24 with pedagogical and curricular expertise.
259
1 That's always under stress in budgetary
2 times.
3 But there's also a question of degree
4 progress. When you look at graduation rates
5 across CUNY, we want to bring -- I think
6 everyone in this room wants to bring up those
7 graduation rates. And unfortunately, one of
8 the things that happens when you cut the
9 number of classes that's being offered and
10 move students around, pack lecture halls, is
11 students don't get the classes they need to
12 graduate. It creates a burden on them and
13 their families and the advisers trying to
14 resituate them.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FORREST: Thank you.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
17 We go to the Senate.
18 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Hi. I think
19 there's just me left.
20 I guess for both of the Professional
21 Staff Congresses -- although yours has a
22 different name, so sorry. I don't know if
23 you've heard me earlier ask both chancellors
24 to please get us information on the breakdown
260
1 of their budgets for salaries and for
2 staffing. And I feel like we haven't looked
3 at that in a really long time.
4 But I think the last time we looked at
5 it there were concerns that both universities
6 are using quite a bit of their money for top
7 administrative positions with very high
8 salaries, and that those monies in theory
9 could be used to make sure we were paying for
10 the teaching staff that we need at these
11 schools.
12 Has either of your unions looked at
13 that at all recently, or agree or disagree?
14 Or maybe I just need to give you the data
15 when I get it, and you can then look at it
16 and tell me what you think.
17 DR. DAVIS: Compensation for executive
18 employees at CUNY -- reining that in is not
19 going to solve the fundamental problem of
20 funding the university.
21 The issue that we have is that when
22 austerity is administered to our campuses
23 because they're trying to manage to
24 structural deficits, the sacrifice is not
261
1 shared equally.
2 So I did not see a sacrifice when the
3 board of trustees approved 30 percent raises
4 for two top executives in the CUNY office in
5 2022 and then turned around and told all of
6 my colleagues that they needed to cut the
7 number of classes, lay off adjunct faculty,
8 and we shouldn't expect very much in the next
9 contract. I understand sacrifice, but it
10 needs to be evenly shared.
11 DR. KOWAL: Yes, I would be very -- as
12 would my members -- be very interested to see
13 those numbers were you to get them.
14 I think it is -- as James has
15 indicated, it will not solve all of our
16 problems in terms of funding if there could
17 be a corralling of the salaries and a limit
18 to those salaries.
19 But I think that the even greater
20 point is at a number of our campuses,
21 administrators have been coming and going at
22 very high salaries. And yet now that there
23 is suddenly a financial crisis, be it at
24 Downstate or at Potsdam or at Fredonia or
262
1 Buffalo State or wherever, the burden is
2 falling on students, on patients, our
3 members, and the community.
4 This is a central question of justice.
5 You know, if it is clearly a case where
6 administrators have the responsibility to
7 manage a campus effectively, it is
8 appropriate, I guess, that they get paid for
9 it. But at the same time I sure wish there
10 was a way of holding those administrators
11 responsible for their errors or malfeasance
12 that has led to the crises that we're facing.
13 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. My time
14 is up. Thank you.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
16 Eachus.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Thank you, Chair.
18 It amazes me that I'm sitting here
19 right now and that I'm breaking state
20 education law by not supporting the community
21 college after I sat for 12 years on a county
22 legislature and had nothing to say,
23 sometimes, about the state legislators.
24 I'm going to concentrate on community
263
1 colleges. I'm a double graduate of a
2 four-year college, but if you don't mind --
3 and by the way, I come from the Hudson Valley
4 and I completely support keeping Downstate
5 open. You have our support the whole way.
6 But what I'd like to do is just be sure that
7 I understand the situation.
8 The first is, President Davis -- or
9 President Williams, TAP. I'm a cosponsor of
10 that, I want that to happen. But TAP follows
11 the student.
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Correct.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: So that really
14 isn't a solution to the problems that you've
15 been describing for us.
16 MR. WILLIAMS: Correct.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Okay.
18 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: So the 96 million
20 that you're asking for, and when you talk
21 about that, is for 20,000 new students, am I
22 correct, to support 20,000 new students in
23 the community college system?
24 MR. WILLIAMS: No, not 20,000 new
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1 students. It would enable us to produce
2 20,000 students annually that would go into
3 the workforce -- the growing workforce
4 development field.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Okay.
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay?
7 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Okay.
8 MR. WILLIAMS: So it would enable us
9 to create, to expand and maintain the various
10 programs that would enable us to turn out
11 these students.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Okay. And you --
13 the few that you mentioned were exactly that.
14 When you take a look across all 30 community
15 colleges, we're talking about a number of
16 workforce development programs overall.
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Because in my
19 particular community college, I mean, we've
20 done cannabis. They've added food tech and
21 so on like that also.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Okay. So, that's
24 it.
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1 And the final thing I'd like to say is
2 throughout all of our lives, the great
3 equalizer was a high school education. Can
4 we agree that that's no longer true? They
5 need some sort of college degree to really
6 compete and be equal.
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, yes. Either
8 degree, but not so much the degree that we've
9 known in the past, or a certificate or a
10 certification that says, I am qualified to do
11 X. To become an auto technician for Toyota
12 or Ford.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: You're right. I
14 stand corrected.
15 MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: But it's beyond
17 high school.
18 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. Beyond high
19 school, correct.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Thank you very
21 much.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Thank you.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay, we go to
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1 Assemblywoman Wallace.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALLACE: Good
3 afternoon. And thank you so much for all of
4 your testimony, for coming here today.
5 Really quickly, I want to say that I
6 support the 97 million for the community
7 colleges. We know the unique role that they
8 play in workforce development.
9 I would like to have a conversation --
10 because I think the answer would take too
11 long -- to understand a little bit better
12 ways to streamline that certification and
13 understand what the barriers are, where you
14 were saying that the students don't get
15 support for those programs, that they're
16 considered sort of nontraditional enrollment.
17 So I'd like to understand that and see if we
18 can kind of, you know, streamline that
19 process to help with the funding in that
20 regard.
21 But my question specifically with the
22 time that I have left is for Dr. Kowal. If
23 the Legislature were to direct the
24 139 million toward the specific distressed
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1 campuses like we tried to do last year, how
2 would that help stabilize those specific
3 campuses and allow them to come up with their
4 own plans to address the enrollment issues
5 and potentially rightsize, as we directed
6 them to do in the last budget? In other
7 words, would this buy them the time that they
8 need to create those strategic plans going
9 forward so it's not a continuing deficit?
10 DR. KOWAL: Yeah, thank you very much,
11 Assemblymember.
12 I think that it is crucial for that
13 funding to be directed at these campuses with
14 the deficits, remembering that the deficits
15 have not been caused directly by a fall-off
16 in enrollment. The deficits were created by
17 the underfunding during the Cuomo years. And
18 there is this reverberating effect on
19 enrollment with regard to recruitment, but
20 especially retention, that we've been talking
21 about.
22 And so you get rid of that deficit,
23 you get to a situation where -- we know from
24 our members that when they hear from the
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1 administration, that is always the
2 centerpiece of the conversation: We have
3 this deficit, we've got to deal with this
4 deficit. And that constrains their choices
5 as to how they can move forward.
6 I do want to make one point that I
7 know -- and I heard the chancellor over and
8 over point out that there were
9 double-digit-percentage increases in direct
10 aid to campuses. Well, if the base that is
11 being increased is very small, it doesn't
12 matter if it's a double-digit increase, it's
13 still a small amount of money.
14 And so it is imperative that the
15 actual amount of these deficits be addressed
16 so that then there can be a more broader
17 discussion about the future of institutions
18 and their role in the SUNY system.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALLACE: Thank you.
20 I'd love to follow up with you later
21 on that.
22 DR. KOWAL: Okay.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: In a few minutes, I
24 just want to pick up on something that
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1 Mr. Kowal said.
2 You know, last year, we received the
3 floor. We asked for the floor plus
4 4 percent. We received the floor, which
5 we're appreciative of, but the CPI last year
6 was 3.2 percent. The core CPI was 4.7. So
7 although we got the floor, we in essence
8 still received a cut.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALLACE: Thank you.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
11 And to close with the questions for
12 this panel, Assemblywoman Simon.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: So thank you all
14 for your testimony. And, you know, with
15 regard to community colleges, thank you for
16 your testimony.
17 It's -- it's -- community colleges
18 really are also the entry point for so many
19 students with disabilities, and that is a
20 critical element that we forget about. But
21 also those other training programs that are
22 not necessarily degree programs are a great
23 service that community colleges provide. So,
24 you know, I think that you've addressed a lot
270
1 of the ways we could help with that. But I
2 think that we're all in agreement with that
3 approach.
4 With regard to SUNY -- and I know
5 we're sort of a little fixated on Downstate
6 these days -- clearly one of the big
7 challenges is the long-term disinvestment,
8 which is both -- it's an issue throughout
9 higher education, the long-term disinvestment
10 particularly with the prior administration.
11 If you had your druthers, what would
12 we do? Like in other words, we should have
13 been investing all along. You can't just
14 make up that difference. How could we
15 rightsize this, this whole -- and level this
16 playing field differently?
17 DR. KOWAL: Well, I'll start with --
18 again, I know we're fixated on Downstate for
19 now because they are talking about it, a
20 closure that would impact, you know, the
21 community and certainly the healthcare in the
22 community.
23 What we are calling for is for first
24 this present plan to be abandoned
271
1 immediately, but that the Legislature take up
2 legislation that has been proposed, passed
3 the Senate last year, introduced on the
4 Senate side by Senator Myrie. And the goal
5 of that legislation was to keep the hospital
6 open, to maintain its public nature, it's
7 teaching nature. At the same time, to call
8 on the Department of Health to bring together
9 all stakeholders to come up with a plan that
10 springs from the community and serves their
11 interests. We start with the community.
12 That is imperative.
13 And as that develops, then the state
14 must put the investment into the institution.
15 As you well know, this is an institution that
16 is number one among 143 hospitals in terms of
17 the percentage of Medicaid patients. It will
18 never be a massively profitable institution.
19 Those patients need healthcare. Eliminating
20 the hospital does not solve the problem that
21 you have thousands and thousands of Medicaid
22 patients. They're going to have to go
23 somewhere. So the investment is needed
24 following an inclusive plan that springs from
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1 the community.
2 On the campus side, invest to
3 eliminate the deficits created in the
4 Cuomo years, and let's plan for a sustainable
5 future for all the campuses.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
7 And CUNY, you would have a similar
8 comment? Because I know you guys have a
9 similar issue with the lack of investment.
10 DR. DAVIS: We ran out of time, but
11 I'll be glad to speak with you offline.
12 Thanks for the question.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Actually, if
15 you can send the response in writing to the
16 committee so we can share with all of our
17 colleagues here.
18 DR. DAVIS: Thank you.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So I want to
20 thank this panel for being here today.
21 And we are going to move on to
22 Panel C: New York State University Police
23 Lieutenants Benevolent Association; Graduate
24 Student Employees Union of Communications
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1 Workers 1104; Association of Private
2 Colleges; New York State Academic Dental
3 Centers; and Commission on Independent
4 Colleges and Universities.
5 And I would just ask that the people
6 who are testifying -- listed as testifying in
7 the final panel make their way down to the
8 front of the hearing room so that we'll be
9 able to start that panel expeditiously when
10 we conclude here.
11 So if we can go in the order listed,
12 starting with New York State University
13 Police.
14 MR. McCARTNEY: Good afternoon. My
15 name is James McCartney. I'm the president
16 of the PBA of New York State, which
17 represents New York State University Police,
18 Environmental Conservation Officers, Forest
19 Rangers, and Park Police Officers.
20 We're grateful that the State
21 Legislature has stood with us for the past
22 four years, overwhelmingly passing
23 legislation that provides PBA of New York
24 State members with the same 20-year pension
274
1 that 96 percent of police officers and
2 firefighters in the state already receive.
3 Sadly, your 20-year pension
4 legislation has now been vetoed three times
5 by Governor Hochul. Our members have spent
6 the last several years living in a
7 demoralizing version of the movie "Groundhog
8 Day," in which the same cycle repeats over
9 and over. The Legislature passes our 20-year
10 retirement bill, the Governor receives your
11 bill at the end of the year, the Governor
12 vetoes the legislation, stating it needs to
13 be part of the State Budget. By the time the
14 veto is issued, the following year's budget
15 has already been drafted without the 20-year
16 retirement. Rinse and repeat year after
17 year.
18 We ask that the Legislature please add
19 our 20-year into your one-house legislative
20 budget proposals and force the issue during
21 budget negotiations. We see no other way to
22 meet the Governor's procedural demands and
23 deliver the retirement parity you strongly
24 and consistently support for our members and
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1 their families.
2 Over the past three years we have lost
3 200 New York State University Police
4 Officers. Only 20 percent were due to
5 retirements; the rest were officers who
6 resigned to take jobs elsewhere. In the same
7 period of time, we have seen 372 officers
8 across all four of our units leave service.
9 Less than one-third were due to retirement.
10 These numbers are staggering,
11 alarming, and unsustainable. The University
12 Police Officers enforce extreme risk
13 protection orders, deal with violent
14 assaults, drug trafficking, sexual assault,
15 domestic violence, dangerous and illegal
16 weapons, as well as responding to thousands
17 of mental health crisis calls each year.
18 State University Police Officers saved
19 the lives of 1,011 individuals in 2023 who
20 were taken into custody pursuant to Mental
21 Health Law Provision 941. University Police
22 Officers safely transported these individuals
23 to hospitals to undergo mental health
24 evaluations to prevent them from causing harm
276
1 to themselves or another.
2 To provide the highest level of
3 services and safety, we must adapt
4 structurally. State University policing is
5 fragmented, with 28 individual police
6 departments in our four-year campuses and a
7 patchwork of security personnel at our
8 community college campuses.
9 Policies vary across campuses, and
10 there is no standardization of equipment or
11 uniforms. Hiring and transfers between
12 campuses are hampered. And there is no
13 central point of reporting within the SUNY
14 administrative system, which makes
15 data-driven-based policing difficult at best
16 and unattainable at worst.
17 In closing, I would like to say that
18 our members and their families need not live
19 through a cycle of uncertainty and
20 disappointment. The State Senate and
21 Assembly have the ability to bring an end to
22 our 20-year retirement "Groundhog Day" by
23 working with Governor Hochul to include
24 pension parity in the final budget. Your
277
1 decisive leadership and perseverance can see
2 this into fruition.
3 I thank you for the opportunity to
4 present this testimony, and I thank you for
5 your ongoing support of higher education.
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
7 Next.
8 MR. HERSHENSON: Good afternoon,
9 Assemblymembers, Senators, and Committee
10 Chairs. Thank you very much for taking the
11 time to host a hearing on higher education.
12 My name is Brad Hershenson. I'm a
13 graduate student at the University at Albany
14 and a business agent for the Graduate Student
15 Employees' Union CWA Local 1104. We
16 represent nearly 5,000 graduate students
17 across SUNY and other campuses in our state
18 that are graduate assistants, teaching
19 assistants, instructors of record, and the
20 folks who really are the backbone of SUNY.
21 We teach almost 40 percent of the
22 classes at SUNY, and our members conduct
23 amazing research in a variety of fields such
24 as humanities, science, and technology -- all
278
1 that helps New York pave the way for a better
2 future for all.
3 We must address the important issues
4 surrounding our system, addressing the needs
5 of our students and campuses by enhancing
6 support for our programs, including mental
7 health services, which is key this year.
8 As we continue to celebrate the
9 50th anniversary of the Tuition Assistance
10 Program, which has helped countless students
11 and families across our state for decades, it
12 is imperative to highlight its successes and
13 further enact enhancements to the program.
14 Expansions were finally made regarding
15 eligibility for incarcerated students,
16 part-time TAP -- thank you very much for
17 doing that. Now is the time to make
18 expansions and enhancements to the program so
19 even more students and more families can join
20 the SUNY family and thrive together.
21 For example, expansions can be made to
22 lift the income caps to make more students
23 eligible. The forms and documentation
24 necessary to apply to the program can be made
279
1 further user-friendly. We were excited to
2 hear Dr. Linares announce a revamp of the
3 website, and we look forward to that.
4 Additionally, expansions can be made
5 to allow for other costs to be covered -- for
6 example, textbooks, laptops, and other
7 equipment, items that are not tuition and
8 fees. These are the real costs associated
9 with pursuing a degree at any level.
10 Lastly, our graduate students need
11 support. We very much appreciate your hard
12 work and the funding made available to
13 alleviate the plight that we face with
14 respect to our fees as workers, and we hope
15 that you'll continue to address college
16 affordability this session through
17 Graduate TAP and other expansions.
18 As we know, many of our SUNY campuses
19 are engines of economic opportunity. So
20 these kinds of enhancements to the TAP
21 program and aid to support our campuses will
22 help to skyrocket enrollment and act as an
23 investment in our students and an investment
24 in our state.
280
1 For example, on my campus,
2 President Havidan Rodriguez at the
3 University at Albany has recently announced
4 the new strategic plan for our university,
5 which has goals to leverage our research
6 success to drive economic workforce
7 development with more funded graduate
8 students. Needless to say, it's time to turn
9 on the TAP. Let's increase our funding to
10 public universities and expand and enhance
11 the programs that directly impact academic
12 excellence and student success.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you,
14 Bradley.
15 The Association of Private Colleges.
16 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: Good afternoon,
17 Chairwomen Fahy, Stavisky, Weinstein, and
18 Krueger, and members of the Legislature.
19 Thank you for this opportunity to share this
20 testimony on behalf of the Association of
21 Private Colleges.
22 My name is Donna Stelling-Gurnett, and
23 I am the president of APC.
24 I would like to begin by thanking the
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1 Senate and the Assembly Higher Ed committees
2 for their commitment to making much-needed
3 changes to the Tuition Assistance Program.
4 APC fully supports your Turn on the TAP
5 campaign and the proposed package of bills
6 that would expand access to this program.
7 We are grateful that the TAP program
8 has supported our students since its
9 inception nearly 50 years ago. However, the
10 most recent HESC annual report shows there
11 has been a 15 percent decrease in utilization
12 since 2017, as the program has become more
13 and more outdated. APC would strongly
14 encourage the Legislature to evaluate the
15 program with a focus on changes that would
16 increase access to TAP -- for instance,
17 allowing students attending proprietary
18 colleges access to part-time TAP.
19 For APC, this is an equity issue. Our
20 students are facing the same challenges as
21 students in other sectors of higher ed. They
22 are also balancing work and family priorities
23 along with their class schedules and deserve
24 the same flexibility to attend part-time if
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1 they need to.
2 Without the support of a prorated TAP
3 award, these students may need to take out
4 student loans or may decide not to enroll at
5 all. So we would ask the Legislature to
6 ensure that all students have equal access to
7 part-time TAP and support Assembly Bill 5833,
8 sponsored by Assemblywoman Hyndman, and
9 Senate Bill 6466, sponsored by
10 Senator Fernandez.
11 APC also supports proposals that would
12 increase the cap on earnings for single
13 individuals with no dependents. A modest
14 step forward would be increasing the earnings
15 cap from 10,000 to 30,000 and for married
16 applicants from 40,000 to 60,000 for TAP
17 eligibility.
18 The current income thresholds are
19 significantly outdated and easily surpassed,
20 even for those working at or below the
21 poverty level. A bolder step would be to
22 eliminate the distinction between dependent
23 and independent students entirely for the
24 purposes of determining TAP eligibility.
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1 In closing, I will say the original
2 goals of TAP continue to hold true today. We
3 know that investments in higher education
4 will yield a stronger workforce and economic
5 growth. We know that students who are
6 successful in higher education invest back
7 into their local communities.
8 And we also know that the student
9 demographics, institutions of higher
10 education, the workforce, and the economy of
11 today are very different than they were
12 50 years ago. So it's time to build a better
13 TAP program, and APC looks forward to working
14 with you on that.
15 And with that, I'll end my remarks.
16 Thank you.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
18 New York State Academic Dental
19 Centers.
20 MS. TASSLER: Good afternoon,
21 Chairs Weinstein, Krueger, Fahy, Stavisky,
22 and other distinguished members of the
23 Legislature. Thank you for this opportunity
24 to testify on the Executive Budget proposal
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1 for state fiscal year 2025.
2 My name is Jennifer Tassler. I'm the
3 vice president for government relations and
4 strategic affairs at the New York State
5 Academic Dental Centers, also known as
6 NYSDAC. NYSDAC is a consortium of the six
7 dental schools in New York State.
8 NYSDAC works in partnership with its
9 members to advance dental education and to
10 address disparities in oral healthcare,
11 particularly for those people with special
12 needs, including intellectual and
13 developmental disabilities. Individuals with
14 I/DD bear a disproportionately high burden of
15 oral disease and remain at a higher risk of
16 oral diseases throughout their lives, and
17 systemic barriers to access have contributed
18 to chronically poor oral health and overall
19 health for people with I/DD.
20 There is a persistent shortage of
21 dental providers in the U.S. who treat
22 patients with moderate to severe I/DD, with
23 only 10 percent of general-practice dentists
24 reporting that they regularly treat
285
1 individuals with these conditions. There
2 have been efforts by CODA to include
3 additional training and exposure during
4 dental school, but there is a gap in
5 providers to treat these patients.
6 In recent years, the number of
7 advanced training options for dentists in
8 New York State has dwindled, and to address
9 this, in 2021 NYSDAC launched the Fellowship
10 to Address Oral Health Disparities. The
11 program has been supported by the Legislature
12 since 2022 -- thank you. And we have trained
13 three dentists who are committing to work in
14 New York with this population for at least
15 one year after their fellowship. Our current
16 fellow is in her final six months of
17 training, and the first two fellows are
18 working in the Hudson Valley and in the
19 Bronx.
20 Our goal is to support six fellows
21 across the state each year to improve access
22 to high-quality care for individuals with
23 I/DD.
24 NYSDAC is also working with
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1 specialists at the dental schools to develop
2 a unified curriculum and to coordinate
3 teaching and research experience for the
4 fellows. NYSDAC is working toward additional
5 ways to incentivize dentists to care for
6 patients with special needs, including
7 practice support, loan repayments, additional
8 training, and increased reimbursement.
9 We support the proposal in the
10 1115 waiver to provide loan repayment for
11 dentists who care for a significant number of
12 patients with Medicaid; the expansion of
13 doctors across New York to include dentists,
14 with additional funding to support them; and
15 programs like Take A Look, which helps
16 introduce rural practice settings to
17 early-career dentists and students.
18 New York State's Academic Dental
19 Centers urge the Legislature to continue
20 funding for the state fiscal year 2024-'25 to
21 support these fellowships and other paths to
22 provide advanced clinical training in the
23 provision of oral healthcare for people with
24 intellectual and developmental disabilities.
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1 Thank you for this opportunity, and I
2 look forward to your questions.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 And lastly, Commission on Independent
5 Colleges and Universities.
6 MS. BRABHAM: Good afternoon,
7 Chairpersons, and all of the members of the
8 committee. I appreciate the opportunity to
9 testify on behalf of the independent sector
10 of higher education on the 2025 Executive
11 Budget.
12 From the banning of affirmative action
13 by the United States Supreme Court, to
14 federally proposed cuts to student aid, to
15 the continued delays in rolling out the new
16 FAFSA, higher education stands at a national
17 crossroads, and the path we choose today will
18 shape the future for generations to come.
19 New York has always been unwavering in
20 its commitment to breaking down institutional
21 and systemic barriers to higher education and
22 to creating opportunity for all. We
23 recognize the significant economic, health,
24 and social benefits that completing a college
288
1 degree provides.
2 Unfortunately, the Executive Budget
3 includes misguided proposals that threaten
4 decades of work to ensure that more students
5 can benefit from higher education.
6 We were disheartened by the proposal
7 to eliminate Bundy Aid for campuses with
8 endowments greater than $750 million.
9 Bundy Aid is outcome-based and
10 student-focused. Colleges receive funding
11 based on the number of degrees they confer,
12 and the funding is invested back into the
13 programs to help more students graduate.
14 This proposal perpetuates the
15 misconception that most independent colleges
16 and universities have big, unregulated
17 endowments that can be spent however an
18 institution decides. In fact, endowments are
19 restricted in how they can be spent. In
20 '21-'22, 46 percent of independent-sector
21 endowment spending went to student aid.
22 This cut will increase costs for
23 hardworking students and their families who
24 rely on the financial support provided by
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1 Bundy Aid. New York should not be balancing
2 its budget on the backs of these students,
3 and we strongly urge you to reject this
4 proposal.
5 Last year, the Legislature provided an
6 increase to education opportunity programs in
7 the enacted budget, but it was cut from this
8 year's budget proposal. These proven
9 programs need additional investment to
10 continue providing high-quality educational
11 support, and we urge you to stand up for
12 student aid and increase funding for
13 educational opportunity programs by
14 20 percent.
15 This year marks the 50th anniversary
16 of TAP. TAP has been a major vehicle for
17 student success in higher education, with
18 over 6 million New Yorkers benefiting from
19 it. Unfortunately, the program has
20 stagnated. We're hopeful that, with your
21 leadership, the state will finally increase
22 the income limit and awards levels, provide
23 independent students with full benefits, and
24 restore Graduate TAP for students seeking
290
1 careers in critical fields.
2 We're pleased that Governor Hochul
3 announced the creation of the Empire AI
4 Consortium to secure New York's place at the
5 forefront of artificial intelligence. This
6 consortium includes several CICU member
7 campuses, which highlights the critical role
8 independent colleges play in creating jobs
9 and strengthening our state's economy. But
10 notably, the proposal to cut Bundy Aid
11 targets these same campuses.
12 The independent sector participates in
13 a national consortium to transform early
14 literacy instruction. As our sector awards
15 55 percent of education degrees, we fully
16 support the Governor's "Back to Basics" plan
17 to include reading proficiency.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
19 We go to our Higher Education chair,
20 Pat Fahy.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you, Chair.
22 And thanks to the entire panel.
23 And I know we've got a lot of issues
24 covered here, so I'll try to be as brief as
291
1 possible. Let me just start with a couple of
2 comments somewhat in order.
3 But to our University Police, all of
4 our University Police, including our
5 Director James McCartney, we hear you. We
6 hear you on the "Groundhog Day." And I know
7 that there's yet another effort that has a
8 lot of support this year. So let's hope we
9 can move on on that.
10 Thank you to our graduate students.
11 The business agent, Mr. Hershenhorn --
12 Hershenson, I know that name -- in terms of
13 your work last year, to get the grad student
14 fees addressed. I'm incredibly proud of
15 that, along with our work with the Senate and
16 Chair Stavisky. So really pleased, thank you
17 for the Turn on the TAP, getting that plug
18 in. As you know, that's where we are going.
19 Very briefly on that, a question on
20 that. If we were to include graduate
21 students in TAP, do you have an estimate of
22 what you think that might make a -- how much
23 a difference that might make with students?
24 Of restoring the TAP access for grad
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1 students.
2 MR. HERSHENSON: Sure. Just briefly,
3 some of our students in our bargaining unit
4 make close to $10,000 or $11,000 a year. So
5 to have access to this money to pursue our
6 education is extremely important.
7 And we're operating and conducting
8 research in AI and science, technology --
9 we're at the forefront of what's happening in
10 New York State. So that would really be a
11 tremendous help.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you.
13 And I want to ask the APC as well.
14 Donna Stelling-Gurnett, the president, any
15 sense of what the Hyndman bill might include
16 in terms of TAP students?
17 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: So how many
18 students would be affected?
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Roughly, yes.
20 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: That's a darned
21 good question. Thank you for asking that.
22 I'd have to go back and check with our
23 members, but I do know that we have several
24 graduate programs among APC schools, so I'm
293
1 sure that it would be, at the least, several
2 hundred if not several thousand.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you.
4 And with regard to our dental centers,
5 thank you so much too, Ms. Tassler. We have
6 a whole program we are trying to address.
7 Thank you for mentioning a few of those,
8 including the Doctors Across New York and
9 Take a Look.
10 We're also looking at the dental
11 therapist program as well as the dental
12 hygienist, and with that I'm going to turn to
13 the CICU president, Ms. Brabham. Oh, my
14 gosh, and we've known each other for
15 20 years.
16 (Laughter.)
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Bundy Aid. That
18 was a bit of a surprise. How many students
19 do you estimate that that -- that cuts the
20 proposed -- the Governor's proposed cut on
21 that program, how many students might be
22 affected by that?
23 MS. BRABHAM: Listen, that cut will
24 cut across our entire sector. You know, we
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1 have 110 campuses --
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Okay.
3 MS. BRABHAM: We're going to --
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: We're going to
5 continue that conversation.
6 MS. BRABHAM: Yeah, okay.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you for
8 being here today.
9 Thank you, Chair.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
11 We go to the Senate.
12 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Oh, hello, we're
13 the Senate.
14 Why don't we try Toby Stavisky, our
15 chair.
16 SENATOR STAVISKY: There we go. I'm
17 not even going to ask you about Bundy Aid,
18 because I haven't -- I still haven't figured
19 out the rationale. The relationship between
20 endowments and students was limited in time.
21 MS. BRABHAM: Yeah, we don't think
22 that there is a relationship.
23 SENATOR STAVISKY: So let me ask you
24 instead, Ms. Brabham, a couple of other
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1 questions.
2 Before I do, real quick, thank you to
3 the SUNY Police for what you do -- we know
4 about the 20-year retirement and how
5 important it is -- and to Brad and the
6 graduate students, and everybody else, APC.
7 Let me ask CICU, real quick, I've been
8 troubled by the college closures, both
9 Saint Rose and Cazenovia. Are there steps
10 that can be taken to avert further closures?
11 MS. BRABHAM: Senator, I think that
12 the best thing that the Legislature could do
13 to avoid future college closures is fund
14 student aid. Right? So that students have
15 the tuition that they need to pay tuition,
16 campuses have what they need to operate.
17 And this does take us back to
18 Bundy Aid because, as you know, Bundy Aid is
19 the only form of operating aid that our
20 campuses get. It's only $35 million spread
21 across 110 campuses, and that's only
22 18 percent of the statutory level.
23 So that's the most important thing
24 that the Legislature can do for us this year.
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1 SENATOR STAVISKY: In terms of the
2 questions that I asked Dr. Linares on the
3 independent TAP fiasco -- you know the word,
4 I think -- how are you dealing with the
5 billings of the colleges for their mistakes,
6 for government's mistakes?
7 MS. BRABHAM: Yeah, so the billings to
8 the colleges would be on HESC to do. We've
9 been talking with HESC and, you know, trying
10 to encourage them to hold students harmless.
11 We don't think it's fair that this three-year
12 lookback should be on the shoulders of
13 students.
14 This was an administrative error that
15 happened at HESC. And we think that -- and
16 especially since it happened over pandemic
17 years. You know, our students are burdened
18 enough, and we think there's an
19 administrative solution that could be found
20 without having to burden the students even
21 further to have them come up with this
22 repayment of the overpayment.
23 SENATOR STAVISKY: And lastly, the
24 enrollment questions. The declining
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1 enrollments have been brought up. How are
2 the private independent colleges and the
3 proprietaries doing in terms of enrollment?
4 Ten seconds each.
5 MS. BRABHAM: So, yeah, I mean,
6 there's been declines in enrollment over the
7 past decade, and we're all, you know,
8 impacted by it. You know, the biggest impact
9 was after the pandemic, of course, but
10 campuses are bouncing back. Some more
11 quickly than others. Obviously the larger
12 institutions with, you know, international
13 reputations have, you know, bounced back more
14 quickly.
15 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: I would just
16 say I agree. It's the same with our member
17 institutions.
18 SENATOR STAVISKY: Sorry. Thank you
19 all for coming.
20 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
21 Assemblymember Ra.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
23 Ms. Brabham, if you want to finish
24 your answer to Chair Fahy, I'd appreciate
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1 that, because I wanted to ask about Bundy Aid
2 as well.
3 We were talking about the impact
4 across the colleges, and I am particularly --
5 MS. BRABHAM: Yes, I was just saying
6 that the cut -- you know, it cuts across our
7 entire sector. I don't have an exact number
8 of students that would be impacted, but I can
9 certainly get back to you on that. But the
10 value of the cut is $18 million.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Do you know how many
12 institutions are under that or above that
13 number?
14 MS. BRABHAM: So 17 institutions will
15 be impacted. Yeah.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: And I assume
17 there's -- I'm sure there's some that are in
18 the ballpark that, you know, would like to
19 see their endowment continue to grow. And
20 then that's a kind of weird position to put
21 somebody in --
22 MS. BRABHAM: Yeah, but a point to be
23 made, though, on that $750 million threshold
24 is that, you know, we think it's an arbitrary
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1 metric because it doesn't take into account
2 the size of the institution, the number of
3 students, the number of FTEs and, you know,
4 how that -- the restrictions around how that
5 money can be spent.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: So for you, and I
7 guess APC as well, we've been through
8 different iterations of different aid
9 programs and stuff. And we've seen this
10 before, you know, exclusions that
11 unfortunately treat different students in
12 New York State, depending on where they're
13 going, differently.
14 And, you know, as we talk about TAP
15 and all of these things, I don't think that
16 should be the case. I think that's one of
17 the great things about the TAP program is it
18 gives that opportunity to the student to
19 utilize that funding in the way that best
20 advances their education and their future
21 career goals.
22 So if you can comment on that.
23 MS. BRABHAM: I agree.
24 And I think we should expand the
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1 program. I think it's important that TAP
2 follow the student and that we support
3 student choice about where they, you know,
4 choose to go to school.
5 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: I would also
6 agree.
7 I think, you know, the Tuition
8 Assistance Program is incredibly important to
9 all of our students. And I do think that
10 it's fair that it, you know, follows the
11 student no matter where they choose to go.
12 They should be able to choose whatever
13 institution is the best fit for them, so.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: And then, lastly, for
15 CICU, the topic came up earlier about the
16 Enhanced Tuition Award, you know, and the
17 number of colleges participating has come
18 down. And I'd say that's a sizable number.
19 What should we be looking at to try
20 to, you know, expand these programs? Is it
21 just as simple as what we're saying, let's
22 make TAP more of a choice for the student
23 rather than having all these different
24 programs that are meant to maybe mirror but
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1 don't really provide the same benefit?
2 MS. BRABHAM: Well, if we're talking
3 specifically of the ETA, you know, one of the
4 reasons why utilization of that program is
5 down is just simply because of the timing of
6 the awards. It comes too late for students
7 to be able to factor that into their
8 financial aid package when they're making a
9 decision about where to go to college.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Senator Lea Webb.
12 SENATOR WEBB: Thank you all for being
13 here.
14 I just have two quick questions. One
15 for you, President Brabham, with regards to
16 the Bundy Aid.
17 My question is if you can just
18 elaborate on how this proposal will -- like
19 what's the plan? How will programs need to
20 be cut to compensate for this new limitation
21 that's been proposed by the administration?
22 MS. BRABHAM: So essentially what it
23 does is takes away Bundy Aid completely,
24 which, you know, impacts a campus's
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1 flexibility to be able to offer scholarships,
2 other forms of student aid, put additional
3 funding into research if needed. Those are
4 the things that Bundy Aid funds.
5 SENATOR WEBB: Okay, thank you.
6 And then my next question is for
7 Bradley. With respect to the Graduate
8 Student Employees Union, I know last year we
9 spent a lot of time talking about addressing
10 graduate student fees, which was a big
11 priority -- still is -- with regards to
12 graduate students. And we're happy to see
13 that we're able to address that.
14 I just want to go to TAP for a moment.
15 I know we're spending a lot of time talking
16 about raising the income eligibility
17 threshold -- which, you know, again is
18 important, but I wanted to know if you could
19 elaborate on, in looking at your testimony,
20 the actual award amount. I know that also is
21 very crucial with regards to students.
22 Again, I also was a student that
23 received TAP and Pell, and I was also an EOP
24 student. So I was wondering if you could
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1 just kind of elaborate on what raising that
2 award amount, what that means for grad
3 students and undergrad students. Thank you.
4 MR. HERSHENSON: Sure.
5 And I just want to start by thanking
6 you for your hard work on the fees
7 legislation. We were in a pay-to-work system
8 last year where our graduate workers had to
9 pay to have the jobs that we have on our
10 campuses.
11 Just taking a look at the income
12 threshold and the TAP program itself, the
13 last increase to the income threshold was in
14 the year 2000. That's when I started
15 kindergarten, and now I'm doing my Ph.D.
16 (Laughter.)
17 MR. HERSHENSON: So some of these
18 programs we need to take a look at and maybe
19 reevaluate some of the metrics in what we're
20 offering to our students. Because in my
21 testimony I use the word "investment," and I
22 say putting this money into our SUNY campuses
23 is an investment because we will pay back
24 that investment to New York State.
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1 Our graduate workers conduct research,
2 we work on our SUNY campuses, we teach
3 40 percent of the classes at SUNY. And we
4 will pay back that investment through our
5 income tax, our property taxes, the houses we
6 buy, what we do in this economy. So it's
7 really strongly important to us as graduate
8 workers in New York.
9 SENATOR WEBB: Thank you so much.
10 MR. HERSHENSON: Thank you.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
12 Assemblywoman Simon.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
14 So, Ms. Tassler, I don't know that I
15 was aware of your organization, but I have
16 been to NYU's facility, which is fabulous.
17 So thank you for that work.
18 And if I could, Ms. Brabham, I have a
19 question for you because we've been talking a
20 lot about, you know, the state budget.
21 Obviously that's what we're here for. But
22 there are a lot of issues that are affecting
23 higher education. I'm curious if you can
24 tell us about some of the challenges that
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1 your schools are facing on the federal level.
2 MS. BRABHAM: Yes.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Are we getting
4 funding from the feds, TRIO --
5 MS. BRABHAM: You know, I've just
6 returned -- yes, I've just returned from
7 Washington, D.C., the day before yesterday,
8 on Capitol Hill, you know, lobbying quite
9 forcefully for something to be done about
10 some of the cuts that are being contemplated
11 at the federal level. A couple of them
12 include, you know, rolling back support for
13 the supplemental educational opportunity
14 programs. Also taking money away from
15 work-study for campuses that are subject to
16 the endowment tax. You know, just taking
17 money out of Pell, which is -- of course goes
18 to support education for our neediest
19 students and families. So that's what we're
20 faced with on the federal level.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: So all of the
22 issues with the state budget only exacerbate
23 that situation.
24 MS. BRABHAM: Compound it.
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1 Absolutely.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: We have Senator
4 Murray.
5 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you,
6 Chairwoman.
7 And thank you all for being here.
8 Mr. McCartney, I want to focus on you.
9 The numbers you gave were staggering, by the
10 way, of the percentages of them leaving.
11 But first let me say the 20-year
12 retirement, we were talking about this and
13 fighting for this when I was back in the
14 Assembly years ago.
15 MR. McCARTNEY: Correct.
16 SENATOR MURRAY: So this is far, far
17 too long in coming.
18 But first I'll make a statement, then
19 ask your input on this.
20 Campuses, universities, colleges,
21 that's where you go, you know, that's where
22 you express yourself and you have your
23 protests and your rallies and all of this.
24 And that's all great. But sometimes it seems
307
1 lately it's much more heated, it can at times
2 get violent. That puts a lot of pressure on
3 the police.
4 Is that a contributing factor? Like
5 what is the biggest factor you see, or what
6 are the factors of why you're losing hundreds
7 of officers when only 20 percent is
8 retirement? So it's not that. So what is it
9 that's driving the workforce down, and is it
10 hampering your recruitment efforts?
11 MR. McCARTNEY: Yes. We're like a
12 specialized police unit. We do illicit-bias
13 training, a lot of verbal judo, de-escalation
14 techniques, which makes us valuable to the
15 municipalities locally.
16 SENATOR MURRAY: Right.
17 MR. McCARTNEY: And what they do is --
18 we go to local police academies. We don't go
19 to a single police academy. So we get --
20 they get to see us and recruit us while
21 they're rookies. And what happens is they
22 take away our diverse officers within the
23 first year or two years, because local
24 agencies hire, pay more money, and then they
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1 have the 20-year retirement.
2 So that's -- it kills us with
3 recruiting. So those numbers show that the
4 state is just throwing money out. This would
5 have paid for itself years ago if they would
6 have made the initial investment to do the
7 20-year retirement. Then we'd be able to
8 keep our officers there.
9 What also happens is people keep
10 leaving, so you're not having people to fill
11 the roles as supervisors going on with the
12 experience. So it's just a huge turnover
13 like that.
14 SENATOR MURRAY: But I mean, I'm sure
15 that's been going on for years. But I mean,
16 are you seeing that escalate a bit now? Is
17 it getting worse?
18 MR. McCARTNEY: Well, right now when
19 you have the City of Syracuse offering
20 $20,000 hiring bonuses and they'll take our
21 guys that work locally there, it's very hard.
22 SENATOR MURRAY: Well, I think the
23 shortage altogether in law enforcement and
24 the recruiting problems we're having is
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1 almost making it, you know -- internally you
2 having battles between departments, I would
3 imagine.
4 MR. McCARTNEY: For recruiting
5 purposes, yes.
6 SENATOR MURRAY: Right.
7 MR. McCARTNEY: Yes.
8 SENATOR MURRAY: Okay. Well, thank
9 you for what you do, and we'll continue
10 fighting for you.
11 MR. McCARTNEY: Thank you.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman
13 Hyndman.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you,
15 Chair Weinstein.
16 Good afternoon, everyone.
17 Even though we know enrollment is down
18 across the country, it doesn't diminish the
19 necessary college degree. It doesn't
20 discount it, discredit it, or reduce its
21 value at all.
22 So in New York State education, as we
23 know, there are many pathways. And so even
24 though we're still calling it Bundy Aid, the
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1 significant lack of recognition from the
2 Governor in the budget is really
3 disheartening for those students who would
4 have attended different institutions of
5 higher education other than SUNY and CUNY and
6 still need those pathways.
7 And Donna, I know we've done a lot of
8 work around the APC colleges and the work
9 that they do and the restraints of gainful
10 employment. And the amount of statistics
11 that you're able to comply immediately is
12 very different than our public education
13 higher education system.
14 So if you two could just talk a little
15 bit more about Bundy Aid or about the lack of
16 why TAP needs to be expanded to part-time
17 proprietary college students.
18 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: I will start
19 and then turn it to Lola to talk about the
20 Bundy Aid issue.
21 But, you know, I do think it's
22 important to expand the Tuition Assistance
23 Program. Obviously utilization of the
24 program has been going down over the last
311
1 several years as it has become more and more
2 outdated. And so, you know, especially the
3 part-time TAP piece.
4 Like I said earlier, for us it is a
5 matter of equity. You know, our students are
6 facing the same issues and challenges as the
7 students in the other sectors of higher
8 education. It is probably one of the very
9 few areas where they don't have the same
10 access. So, you know, we find that very
11 disheartening and appreciate your support.
12 We estimate it will impact about
13 2500 students and cost approximately
14 $5.5 million to include that in the
15 part-time TAP. So we ask for everyone's
16 support, and we hope we can get that done in
17 this legislative session.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Lola, before
19 you talk, I just want to say if we
20 listened -- if -- I don't know if you heard
21 the chancellor earlier, but, you know, the
22 amount of state investment that's needed for
23 SUNY Downstate, or Fredonia, or for
24 Potsdam -- Saint Rose did not have the state
312
1 to say, Here's a couple million dollars,
2 let's help you out. So that's why Bundy Aid
3 is so important.
4 MS. BRABHAM: Yes, that's a great
5 point. And I did hear, you know, all of the
6 testimony and comments earlier today. And I
7 heard what you just said about higher
8 education being an ecosystem, right, made up
9 of all of us and many different pathways to
10 education.
11 And, you know, I just want -- I think
12 it's important to remember that when
13 Bundy Aid was established it was really at a
14 time when there was significant increase into
15 SUNY and CUNY and -- you know, and that
16 continues today, and that's fine. But there
17 was a recognition on behalf of the
18 Legislature that the private, independent
19 colleges and universities also needed support
20 and that it was important -- that it was an
21 important part of the ecosystem, and they
22 wanted to support that. So hopefully we can
23 get back to that.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you.
313
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
2 To the Senate.
3 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
4 Senator Robert Jackson.
5 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you.
6 Hi, everyone. Thank you for hanging
7 in here.
8 So I wanted to -- Director, I wanted
9 to speak to you about that, the 20-year
10 retirement. I chair the Civil Service and
11 Pensions Committee, and I look at some of the
12 vetoes that the Governor vetoed this past
13 year and she says, Get it done in the budget.
14 But when it comes to budget, it's not getting
15 done. So I don't think that there's truth in
16 what the veto says.
17 And, you know, we have a supermajority
18 and you would have to override a veto like
19 that -- you've got to make sure you have it,
20 if in fact it's going to be done at all.
21 So what I ask you to do is, regarding
22 your membership, look at the membership and
23 families and let's organize a campaign in
24 order to try to get it done. I don't think
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1 that there is a willingness to attempt to
2 override the Governor's veto at this point in
3 time. I hope that I'm wrong.
4 MR. McCARTNEY: Thank you, Senator.
5 SENATOR JACKSON: And to the other
6 team members, you talk about Bundy Aid and
7 talk about TAP. But TAP is a certain amount
8 of money, isn't that correct? Do you have a
9 suggestion how much it should be increased,
10 then?
11 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: The maximum
12 income threshold, is that what you're
13 referring to?
14 SENATOR JACKSON: I don't really know
15 all the details.
16 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: I would suggest
17 it should be increased for dependent students
18 up to as much as $125,000 per year. So that
19 would absolutely allow more moderate- and
20 low-income families to participate in the
21 program.
22 SENATOR JACKSON: I'm sorry, I don't
23 know the particular numbers. What is it now?
24 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: Right now for
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1 dependent students it's 80,000. For
2 independent students, it is just 10,000. If
3 you are a single independent student, you
4 cannot make any more than 10,000. If you are
5 married, the limit is now 40,000.
6 SENATOR JACKSON: Yeah. So in making
7 presentations I don't know whether or not
8 you're recommending a certain amount or
9 whether you should discuss that amongst the
10 cohort in order to come up with a recommended
11 amount.
12 MS. BRABHAM: Senator, something
13 that's been discussed in the past is
14 increasing the individual -- the maximum
15 award amount from around $5,600 up to $7,040,
16 I think it was.
17 SENATOR JACKSON: Okay. To be
18 continued. The struggle continues.
19 Thank you.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
21 We go to Assemblyman Smullen.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: Thank you,
23 Chair.
24 I've got a couple of quick questions
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1 for the Commission on Independent Colleges
2 and Universities and the Association of
3 Private Colleges.
4 You know, we've heard from SUNY about
5 enrollment. How is enrollment, very quickly,
6 at your organizations that you represent?
7 MS. BRABHAM: In the independent
8 sector over the past couple of years
9 enrollment has been down by about 3 percent.
10 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: I would say
11 there was certainly a decrease in enrollment,
12 but we are starting to see increases and
13 stabilization in enrollment in the
14 proprietary sector.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: So things are
16 level and relatively steady?
17 MS. BRABHAM: Yes.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: Of course, you
19 could always do better. You know, we'd hope
20 so.
21 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: Yes.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: I note that
23 because your institutions are often,
24 especially in the small towns and the rural
317
1 areas where they are in the areas of upstate,
2 very important in the communities.
3 Just switching gears, we talked a
4 little bit about universal FAFSA in the
5 earlier panels. What is your impression
6 right now, with the federal government's
7 somewhat fumbling FAFSA rollout that's going
8 on right now, how is it affecting your
9 institutions? Is there anything we at the
10 state level could do to assist?
11 MS. BRABHAM: Yes, it's having a huge
12 impact on our institutions. The financial
13 aid offices can't finalize financial aid
14 packages, get that information out to
15 students. And I think the worst part about
16 it is that there's not enough communication
17 from the Department of Education on the
18 federal -- you know, the U.S. Department of
19 Education, letting people know what to expect
20 and when to expect it.
21 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: I would agree
22 with that. We've heard that colleges won't
23 start to receive the student data until
24 mid-to-late March now. So it really
318
1 definitely is impacting our institutions,
2 it's impacting students and their ability to
3 make choices. So it's been very difficult.
4 And I completely agree with Lola that
5 there has not been enough clear communication
6 from the department at all.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: And lastly -- we
8 have just a little bit of time left -- how is
9 New York State doing in regards to when it --
10 or it meters, you know, federal aid to your
11 institutions? Is it getting there on time to
12 be able to satisfy the students' accounts for
13 those who are getting financial aid from
14 either state or federal sources?
15 MS. BRABHAM: I don't know if I can
16 speak to that, but I have not heard from our
17 campuses that that's been a problem.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: So business as
19 usual, I guess, is the thing. Okay, great.
20 Because I know it's a complicated picture,
21 you know, financial aid. And, you know, when
22 students choose whatever institution they
23 choose, it's really important that all the
24 pieces come together. And that's kind of
319
1 some of my worries about -- you know, with
2 the troubles we've been having.
3 But thank you both very much for your
4 testimony. I appreciate it.
5 MS. BRABHAM: Thank you.
6 MS. STELLING-GURNETT: Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
8 Senator Tom O'Mara.
9 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you.
10 Director McCartney, thank you for your
11 testimony and the work of your officers on
12 the 20-year retirement bill.
13 You know, we've -- quite a few years
14 now we've passed it nearly unanimously. You
15 know, as a follow-up to Senator Jackson's
16 discussion of override, the apparent
17 four-letter word in Albany that we can't get
18 to.
19 You know, there's -- the rubber needs
20 to meet the road somewhere. And I understand
21 there's one-party rule in Albany. You want
22 to work together. You don't want to step on
23 each other's toes. But frankly -- you know,
24 I'm the ranker on the Investigations and
320
1 Government Operations Committee, and there is
2 next to no oversight going on from this
3 Legislature over the Executive.
4 Very simple to override this with the
5 supermajority that are in place, with the way
6 the votes have gone for multiple years. And
7 if you don't want to do it and step on the
8 Governor's toes, then say "Put it in the
9 budget or we will override it."
10 And this is the opportunity to do that
11 right now, and not wait and say the same song
12 and dance next year. So pretty simple. And
13 I support that wholeheartedly.
14 Now, to move on to the private
15 colleges and universities, another issue
16 that's been bugging me is the seemingly -- in
17 getting new programs and new curriculums
18 approved, particularly in the healthcare
19 area -- we've been having significant
20 problems with Keuka College trying to get an
21 accelerated online nursing program going.
22 We have a nursing shortage, I've
23 heard. I'm not sure if you're aware of that,
24 but we've had it for a long time. They've
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1 applied for this program in 2020. We've gone
2 through COVID, and virtually all education
3 went online during that period. This
4 accelerated online nursing program still is
5 not approved.
6 And I'm not asking you to comment on
7 Keuka's program or anything, but it's hung up
8 in the State Ed Office of the Professions,
9 where things seemingly get hung up forever.
10 So it's over three years now.
11 Do you have any recommendations on how
12 we can put -- how we can have some
13 accountability on this Office of Professions?
14 Because I've got to imagine that your members
15 are seeing this in other contexts.
16 MS. BRABHAM: I think we agree. And
17 we are also, you know, frustrated with the
18 time it takes with regard to program
19 approval.
20 We've come to the Legislature in the
21 last couple of budget years asking for
22 assistance with that. We've worked with the
23 State Education Department to try to nail
24 down what some potential solutions might be.
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1 Where things stand right now, the
2 budget last year appropriated money for the
3 State Education Department. They've told us
4 that they're working on an IT system solution
5 that's going to help provide more insight,
6 you know, to program approval --
7 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry. I have
8 to cut you off.
9 MS. BRABHAM: And we're hoping that we
10 will see that solution come out soon.
11 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
12 SENATOR O'MARA: If you come up with
13 some solutions, please pass them along.
14 MS. BRABHAM: Yeah.
15 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Thanks.
16 I guess I'm the last Senator. So
17 finish the sentence.
18 (Laughter.)
19 MS. BRABHAM: Well, I was just saying
20 that there was money in the budget that was
21 given to the State Education Department
22 specifically for helping with this problem.
23 They tell us that they're working on it. I
24 believe there's an RFP that's supposed to be
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1 coming out soon with regard to getting the
2 system up and running, and we're looking
3 forward to seeing it.
4 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
5 Mr. McCartney, so last night was a
6 long hearing, and this was like at 10 o'clock
7 at night, but we heard from two other
8 colleagues from other benevolent associations
9 of I think the Parks Police and the
10 Environmental Police, with the same concerns
11 as you have brought to us today.
12 And yes, many of us have been here for
13 many years saying we should be able to
14 resolve this. And we don't.
15 I don't know whether this is
16 sacrilegious, but why don't you all just
17 organize and become part of the Troopers?
18 MR. McCARTNEY: I can't comment on
19 that.
20 (Laughter.)
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I mean, there's
22 power in numbers.
23 MR. McCARTNEY: We all have our own
24 specialized niches, from the Forest Rangers
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1 for their rescues, to the Park Police working
2 out in Jones Beach, Niagara Falls area,
3 Environmental Conservation Officers enforcing
4 the laws that you make, but with less
5 officers to do it because it's never funded
6 when you guys make new laws.
7 So we all have specializations. But
8 that's -- if that's something that you guys
9 want to present.
10 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Well, you know, I
11 would actually just love to have a
12 discussion -- obviously not now, in one
13 minute and 20 seconds -- with the whole group
14 of you. Because I'm not sure how many
15 individualized police forces we have within
16 state government. I know of three as we're
17 talking.
18 And it just seems that sometimes you
19 steal each other's people because they go,
20 Maybe it's better over there. Or maybe they
21 say now that they've been trained they would
22 prefer to be a State Trooper.
23 But I do have an understanding of
24 power in numbers with unions. And I'm just
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1 thinking if you're perhaps all part of one
2 larger union, even if you have specialty
3 areas and specialty skills, that maybe we
4 could accomplish this for the long term.
5 It's just something to think about,
6 perhaps, rather than your commenting on it.
7 MR. McCARTNEY: Okay, thank you.
8 CHAIRMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
9 I think we're now done.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So thank you
11 all for being with us here today, and we'll
12 move on to our last panel.
13 The way it's listed is NYPIRG;
14 Fostering Youth Success Alliance; District 1
15 Youth Advisory Board; CUNY Coalition for
16 Students with Disabilities; Columbia
17 University; and On Point for College.
18 And in this group we are going to
19 start with CUNY Coalition for Students with
20 Disabilities, Arturo Soto.
21 And I know, Arturo, that you may have
22 a train to catch or your companion may be
23 tired of sitting and listening to us, so feel
24 free to leave when you need to.
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1 (Off the record.)
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So, Arturo,
3 just --
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Press the
5 microphone to green. Somebody press his to
6 green, thank you. Press hard.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: And just a
8 reminder to everybody, your remarks have
9 already been, as I've said before, circulated
10 to the members, posted on at least right now
11 the Senate's website -- I think the Assembly
12 posts after the hearing.
13 So please try and summarize your
14 remarks. Three minutes goes quicker than you
15 think.
16 MR. SOTO: Chairs Stavisky, Fahy,
17 Krueger and Weinstein, distinguished members
18 of the New York State Legislature, my name is
19 Arturo Soto. I serve as secretary of the
20 CUNY Coalition for Students with
21 Disabilities, an advocacy group representing
22 more than 10,000 students self-identified
23 with disabilities at the City University of
24 New York.
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1 I also serve as the Queens College
2 Committee for Disabled Students president.
3 In the interests of time, I am only
4 including some words about myself and my
5 experiences in my written testimony. I have
6 traveled to Albany today to urge you to
7 include the following items in the fiscal
8 year '25 New York State Higher Education
9 Operating Budget.
10 First and foremost, CCSD supports
11 CUNY's $7 million request for students with
12 disabilities and ADA compliance. This
13 funding is absolutely essential for our
14 respective campuses to provide adequate,
15 basic accommodations for our students in
16 accordance with the Americans with
17 Disabilities Act.
18 CCSD supports the proactive approach
19 that Chancellor Matos and our university
20 leadership have taken in support of our
21 students. It is our university's goal not
22 only to remain ADA-compliant but to be a
23 beacon for students with disabilities. Our
24 university has a time-honored tradition of
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1 providing innovative programs for our diverse
2 student population. Many of you, like
3 Senator Stavisky, have championed CUNY LEADS,
4 our unique career and academic advisement
5 program, and we are more than grateful for
6 your continued support.
7 However, we now ask you to support our
8 university's request to address our most
9 basic needs. CCSD urges the State
10 Legislature to restore the $2 million that
11 you included in the fiscal year '24 state
12 operating budget for the State Education
13 Department's statewide program for enhancing
14 post-secondary services for students with
15 disabilities.
16 In addition, CCSD endorses the SED
17 budget request to increase support for this
18 program by $2 million in fiscal year '25.
19 However, funding for the SED initiative
20 should not be confused with our university's
21 request for providing basic accommodations as
22 required by law. Both requests are
23 important, but they are very different.
24 CCSD also supports CUNY's request for
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1 a $4 million investment in mental health
2 services. And finally, please consider
3 including students with intellectual
4 disabilities in any deliberations about TAP
5 reform. We urge you to pass A2341/S1880
6 allowing students enrolled in federally
7 recognized CTP programs to be eligible to
8 apply for TAP.
9 Thank you, and thank you for your
10 time.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
12 So now we'll go to Blair Horner,
13 NYPIRG.
14 MR. HORNER: Good afternoon. My name
15 is Blair Horner, NYPIRG's director. NYPIRG
16 has affiliates at the State University, the
17 City University, and at private institutions,
18 independent colleges across the state.
19 Thank you for the opportunity to
20 testify. You have my testimony. I'll be as
21 brief and succinct as possible.
22 We view higher education as a public
23 good, for all the obvious reasons. It cranks
24 out the future workforce and civic leaders of
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1 tomorrow, but it also creates and maintains
2 jobs and stimulates the economy today.
3 They're economic and cultural anchors for
4 communities across the state, and they do so
5 with multiple dollars in return for every
6 dollar invested.
7 So we think of it not only as an
8 important cultural and education experience
9 for young people, but also as a way to boost
10 the economic development of the state. And
11 it should be the cornerstone of economic
12 development in the state.
13 Yet public policy in New York has led
14 to destabilizing that system. And you've
15 heard the testimony today. When former
16 Governor Cuomo and the Legislature agreed to
17 decouple the maximum TAP award from what had
18 been the informal agreement to increase it
19 every time SUNY tuition went up, you created
20 the TAP gap, which destabilizes the public
21 colleges, and also hurt independent colleges
22 as well.
23 For decades the state has cut back on
24 Bundy Aid. You talked a little bit about it
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1 with the previous panel. It was about
2 $125 million in the 1980s, and now the
3 Governor's proposing to cut it even further.
4 So we think that you should be
5 boosting state aid in public and independent
6 colleges, reject the Governor's cuts to
7 Opportunity Programs. We agree -- and urge
8 you to agree -- with the Governor to freeze
9 tuition at public colleges and universities
10 and to restore Bundy Aid, we would argue,
11 back to where it should be from 30 years ago.
12 And we also agree to "Turn on the
13 TAP." The TAP program is 50 years old --
14 hard to believe. Happy birthday to the TAP
15 program. One way to help modernize that law
16 would be, again, to sort of follow the old
17 way of doing it, raise the maximum award to
18 track SUNY's tuition, expand it back to
19 graduate students -- which used to be the
20 case years ago. Graduate student education
21 is even more important than it ever was.
22 Raise the income level, raise the
23 minimum TAP award, and cover some non-tuition
24 costs. We think there should be equity with
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1 independent institutions as well.
2 I have a few seconds left, so I will
3 not keep going, but thank you for the
4 opportunity to testify. And I'll be willing
5 to answer any questions.
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
7 So next, Fostering Youth Success
8 Alliance?
9 MS. NESBETH: Good afternoon, and
10 thank you for the opportunity to testify
11 today.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Just pull that
13 closer to you. Thank you.
14 MS. NESBETH: Okay. Thank you for the
15 opportunity to testify today. My name is
16 Deidra Nesbeth, and I'm here today on behalf
17 of the Fostering Youth Success Alliance. In
18 this testimony I'm going to speak to funding
19 for the Foster Youth College Success
20 Initiative, or FYCSI.
21 FYCSI was established in the 2015-'16
22 budget, really aiming to bridge the gap from
23 foster care to college success. Throughout
24 the years we've seen an increase in young
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1 people accessing this initiative, with as
2 many as 1,148 students currently accessing
3 the initiative this year.
4 We've seen this number continue to
5 rise as accessibility becomes easier by
6 working in coalition with several partners,
7 including HESC, SUNY, CUNY, ACS, OCFS and
8 SED, to make sure that young people can
9 immediately access the consent form to access
10 this program when they fill out the TAP
11 application.
12 In the current Executive Budget
13 proposal Governor Hochul includes
14 $7.92 million in funding for FYCSI. We are
15 asking for an additional $2.08 million in
16 funding, for a total of $10 million, to make
17 sure that all of the young people accessing
18 this initiative can see its benefits and
19 receive the amount of support that they do
20 need.
21 From one of our youth advocates, they
22 stated that tackling college courses while
23 aging out of foster care and finding an
24 apartment at the same time was incredibly
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1 difficult to juggle, but having this type of
2 support is a life-changer.
3 This funding allows young people to
4 fulfill basic needs such as housing, books,
5 transportation, food, personal and medical
6 care, and emergency expenses. FYCSI allows
7 students to have that opportunity to thrive
8 rather than just survive.
9 In terms of FYCSI's results, we were
10 able to work with SUNY to ask them to look
11 through their SUNY data warehouse and get
12 some of the outcomes for young people. For
13 young people we found that FYCSI recipients
14 do have a higher retention rate than their
15 peers with foster care experience, as well as
16 underrepresented minority groups. They also
17 have higher two-year, three-year and
18 four-year associate degree graduation rates
19 than their peers. And additionally, they
20 post higher graduation rates for their
21 bachelor's degrees when adjusted for a
22 six-year-degree completion rate.
23 This is an area for more study and
24 analysis, as there have been fewer cohorts of
335
1 young people to follow through with those
2 programs of bachelor's degrees due to the
3 length of those programs.
4 This is really an investment in equity
5 for our young people, as the majority of
6 youth utilizing the FYCSI initiative do come
7 from underrepresented backgrounds.
8 Additionally, this makes sure young people --
9 as well as older students who may want to
10 access college -- have that option, as
11 there's no upper age limit to FYCSI.
12 Thank you for your time, and I'm happy
13 to take any questions.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
15 Youth Advisory Board?
16 MS. SISTI: Good afternoon, honorable
17 members of the New York State Legislature.
18 My name is Alexandria Sisti, and I am honored
19 to represent the District 1 Youth Advisory
20 Board as one of its founding members. Our
21 organization advocates for the youth of
22 underserved communities of Brentwood,
23 Central Islip, and North Bay Shore on
24 Long Island.
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1 Today I stand before you to emphasize
2 the critical importance of the
3 Tuition Assistance Program and the
4 Excelsior Scholarship in shaping the
5 educational landscape for our students.
6 TAP has been a lifeline, ensuring that
7 each student has equitable access to higher
8 education in our communities where financial
9 barriers can be particularly daunting. TAP
10 has been instrumental in making college an
11 achievable dream. The Excelsior Scholarship
12 has provided tuition-free access to SUNY and
13 CUNY institutions for families earning less
14 than $125,000 annually, and has been
15 transformative. It is not merely a
16 scholarship; it is a gateway to empowerment.
17 It levels the playing field, enabling
18 students from all economic backgrounds to
19 pursue higher education without the burden of
20 crippling debt.
21 Expanding TAP and the Excelsior
22 Scholarship is not just a financial decision,
23 it is an investment in the future of our
24 communities. It is a recognition that talent
337
1 is universal, but opportunities are often
2 not. By ensuring that our students have
3 access to affordable education, we are not
4 only opening doors for individual success,
5 but also fostering the growth and prosperity
6 of our communities.
7 In the Brentwood School District we
8 have around 17,000 students who are
9 economically disadvantaged. In Central Islip
10 we have around 5,000 students. But don't let
11 the word "disadvantaged" throw you off,
12 because we are far from it. Our communities
13 share a similar lived experience that people
14 outside will never understand, and that's
15 what makes us strong.
16 These lived experiences are exactly
17 why this organization was formed. Our motto
18 at the District 1 Youth Advisory Board is
19 "Build the Future." By investing in youth
20 towards a higher education, New York State is
21 doing exactly that.
22 We must continue to expand the
23 Excelsior Scholarship to its goal income
24 limit of $150,000, the number that was laid
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1 out during the announcement of the
2 scholarship and was poised to be reached by
3 the year 2022. This shows that we had a
4 realistic goal, but unfortunately the
5 willpower was just not there. The cost to
6 implement this, according to the fiscal year
7 2021 Executive Budget, was $146 million.
8 We are also urging the Legislature to
9 ensure the stability of TAP by indexing TAP
10 minimum awards to inflation. Furthermore,
11 New York State should lead the way in student
12 grants by not only matching the federal Pell
13 grant maximum, but also perhaps surpassing it
14 for students who need it most.
15 Being a youth leader who is soon to
16 graduate from SUNY Albany, I have seen
17 firsthand the difficulties me and my
18 community face while seeking a higher
19 education. I am proud to say that I'm an
20 orphan youth that comes from a family faced
21 with financial and societal barriers.
22 Without these higher education lifelines,
23 college would just be a fever dream only
24 obtained by the rich and well-off. Without
339
1 these same grants and funds, I would not be
2 here in front of you today.
3 Thank you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
5 Columbia University.
6 DR. FERDSCHNEIDER: Esteemed members
7 of the Legislature, imagine a 30-year-old
8 from Texas who is attending graduate school
9 in New York City. Their family has never
10 been supportive of them seeking any mental
11 health help. They are currently receiving
12 medication from the psychiatrist at their
13 Student Health Center. They go home for
14 their little sister's college graduation and,
15 when they arrive in Texas, they realize that
16 they left their medications back in their
17 apartment in New York City.
18 They call Student Health to schedule
19 an appointment with the psychiatrist but are
20 told that since the psychiatrist is not
21 licensed in Texas, they are unable to assist.
22 They are advised to seek assistance locally
23 from a provider or from an urgent care.
24 Since the student does not want to disclose
340
1 to their family that they are seeking mental
2 health services, they forego refilling their
3 medications and suffer a relapse of their
4 symptoms.
5 One of your constituents goes out of
6 state to college and experiences a disruption
7 of their care for the same reasons.
8 My name is Dr. Marcy Ferdschneider,
9 and I am the assistant vice president -- not
10 principal, assistant vice president -- of
11 Student Health on Haven, the student health
12 center on the Medical Center Campus of
13 Columbia University in the City of New York,
14 proudly located in Senator Jackson's
15 district. I am dual-board-certified in
16 internal medicine and pediatrics.
17 And while these scenarios do not
18 depict actual student cases, they are
19 composites of many stories of many students I
20 have encountered in my almost 25 years of
21 working in student health.
22 It is these stories, and countless
23 others, that compel me to support New York
24 State to join the Interstate Medical License
341
1 Compact. The scenarios above demonstrate how
2 fractured care can lead to increased costs
3 and overburdening of the healthcare system.
4 These stories, while overly simplistic, are
5 true-to-life situations that could be easily
6 resolved with the ability for medical
7 providers to be more easily licensed in other
8 states.
9 New York State is home to almost
10 300 institutions of higher education whose
11 mission is to educate the over 1 million
12 students enrolled. We know that physical
13 health, mental health, and overall well-being
14 are essential for academic success. College
15 health professionals are uniquely positioned
16 to provide high-quality healthcare to
17 students. This means we take care to
18 understand the developmental trajectory of
19 the population, whether they be
20 undergraduate, graduate or doctoral students.
21 We understand the world of the
22 learner, the dynamics of the learning
23 environment, the impacts of the social
24 experience, and the experience of living away
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1 from home -- for many, for the first time.
2 For many of our student patients it is the
3 first time they are living on their own,
4 navigating their own healthcare and, in their
5 words, "adulting."
6 All of this is hard enough for our
7 students, but as things stand currently they
8 now not only have to learn how to navigate
9 the outstanding healthcare system available
10 to them in New York, but because of the
11 transient nature of their experience they
12 also need to have a secondary plan for when
13 they travel away from campus.
14 Having the Interstate Medical License
15 Compact available to medical providers in
16 New York State will streamline the process
17 for our medical providers to obtain the
18 necessary licenses so they can provide the
19 care that their patients need when they are
20 out of state for whatever reason.
21 And I am running out of time, so I
22 will end it there. Thank you.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
24 And now On Point for College, to
343
1 conclude this panel.
2 MR. ROWSER: Thank you, esteemed
3 legislators. Thank you for the opportunity
4 to talk with you about transforming lives and
5 communities by investing $500,000 in
6 New York's future workforce.
7 Education is an effective pathway out
8 of poverty. Ninety percent of students who
9 earn a bachelor's degree are lifted out of
10 poverty, according to a Pew Charitable Trust
11 study.
12 Since On Point for College was founded
13 in 1999, we've helped more than 4500 students
14 graduate from college. These graduates now
15 earn more than they would have with only a
16 high school diploma. Over the course of
17 their working lifetime, they will earn over
18 $11 billion, which will be spent in their
19 communities.
20 We're rising to the challenge of
21 preparing low-income, first-generation
22 students to contribute to the local economies
23 in Onondaga, Madison, Cayuga, Oswego, Oneida,
24 and Herkimer counties -- and beyond, through
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1 our partnership organizations in Manhattan
2 and the Bronx.
3 On Point provides college access,
4 college success and career services to help
5 young adults ages 17 to 29 to apply to,
6 enroll in, and persist at college through
7 graduation, while building skills and
8 pre-professional experiences to help launch
9 their careers. We help to level the playing
10 field for our students. Lower-income,
11 first-generation students face many
12 challenges on their higher education journey.
13 Without assistance, these challenges can turn
14 into barriers that lead students to stop out
15 or never attend college. On Point helps
16 students develop plans to address challenges
17 before they become stumbling blocks. We
18 provide a broad range of services that we can
19 tailor to meet the needs of each individual.
20 Continuing to serve students from
21 vulnerable backgrounds requires innovation in
22 the years ahead. On Point is well-positioned
23 to address the new needs that have arisen for
24 first-generation students as they pursue
345
1 post-secondary opportunities including
2 college, certificates, skilled trades and
3 other credentials to meet workforce needs to
4 position themselves for well-paying careers.
5 Our students bring their TAP and Pell
6 awards as well as their student loan dollars,
7 as well as last-dollar assistance grants from
8 On Point's generous donors, to these
9 campuses. If these students had not had
10 On Point's support, they would not have
11 attempted to go to college at all. These
12 funds flow to campuses across New York State
13 because On Point helps these students go to
14 and remain in college.
15 We believe that providing $500,000 in
16 state funding for On Point's programs will
17 have an impact on thousands of
18 first-generation students each year, helping
19 people consider going to college or into a
20 skilled trade who might otherwise think that
21 their goals were beyond reach. On Point will
22 provide wraparound services to support
23 students on every step of their journey
24 toward their educational and career dreams.
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1 Investment in these young people will
2 immediately support colleges across the state
3 and will bear long-term fruit. Our graduates
4 will bring their degrees and our
5 skilled-trade professionals will bring their
6 skills to build the talented workforce that
7 New York needs. We ask you to keep it
8 On Point.
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
10 We go to our Higher Ed chair,
11 Assemblywoman Fahy.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: It takes a few
13 tries to get this microphone on.
14 Thank you. And we've saved an amazing
15 panel for last, so thanks to each of you.
16 I need to just start with a couple of
17 comments. Since Mr. Soto, Arturo Soto,
18 representing the Coalition for Students with
19 Disabilities had to leave, I just think it's
20 important to get on the record just how
21 profound his testimony was and what a
22 remarkable job.
23 And it is great to see a number of
24 young people here, including Alexandria
347
1 Sisti. Thank you as well for the remarkable
2 testimony. Just terrific.
3 Just a couple of quick questions.
4 I'll start with our foster-care folks,
5 Ms. Nesbeth. You said there was 7.9 million.
6 And exactly how much are you asking for this
7 year?
8 MS. NESBETH: Ten million in total.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: And how many
10 students would that serve, or what percentage
11 of foster-care college-age students would
12 that serve?
13 MS. NESBETH: Yes, so any young person
14 with a foster-care background, it would be
15 able to serve them. So right now that has
16 been -- in this current year we anticipate
17 that will be over 1200 young people.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Twelve hundred.
19 Okay, thank you so much.
20 And then the mental health services
21 from Columbia University, Dr. Ferdschneider,
22 how many students roughly -- do you have any
23 estimate of how many students may be impacted
24 by this in-and-out-of-state matter?
348
1 DR. FERDSCHNEIDER: I actually don't
2 have that number offhand. I apologize.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Okay. Okay.
4 It's an important one that you raise that we
5 are trying to address in other areas. But
6 very important given the exponential increase
7 in the need for mental health services,
8 including among our college students.
9 And thanks to each of you as well for
10 mentioning TAP. That's very important.
11 Mr. Horner, any comments with NYPIRG on what
12 the most important parts of TAP are for
13 students? As you know, there's been a whole
14 package to "Turn on the TAP," and thank you
15 for using our hashtag.
16 MR. HORNER: You know, it's hard to
17 say, because undergraduates are different
18 than graduate students.
19 So, first of all, for graduate
20 students, having the TAP program helped them
21 to afford to pay for going to graduate
22 school, which obviously is most important to
23 them.
24 In terms of the undergraduate TAP
349
1 program, I mean, there's two -- again,
2 there's two ways to look at it. One is from
3 the institutional perspective, because
4 enrollment is really where the action is with
5 regard to a college's financial stability.
6 So raising the max TAP award to match SUNY
7 tuition helps across the board, both public
8 and independent colleges.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you.
10 MR. HORNER: So I would think
11 expanding the income level would be number --
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Okay, thank you.
13 Appreciate the support on that.
14 And the last speaker as well as my
15 last question, for On Point. Assemblymember
16 Stirpe sent his regards.
17 MR. ROWSER: Thank you.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: And, Mr. Rowser,
19 thank you for this. We would love to see one
20 in Albany, I have to say, or in the
21 Capital Region.
22 But what is making the difference, and
23 how was the program created? Sorry, in six
24 seconds.
350
1 MR. ROWSER: It was created -- it will
2 be 25 years old this year, and it was because
3 of the passion of helping young people
4 transition from where they are to where they
5 want to be. And we've expanded in the last
6 year into six additional city school
7 districts in three different counties.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you. Very
10 impressive.
11 Thank you, Chair.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
13 To the Senate.
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
15 Senate Chair Toby Stavisky.
16 SENATOR STAVISKY: I finally mastered
17 the microphone.
18 (Laughter.)
19 SENATOR STAVISKY: First, to the
20 panel, I thank you all for coming. And I
21 thank Blair Horner for his testimony.
22 And to Arturo, who left -- but that is
23 a wonderful organization based out of CUNY,
24 but particularly at Queens College, the CUNY
351
1 Committee for Students with Disabilities.
2 And I always object to the name, because I
3 think it's really students with abilities,
4 not disabilities.
5 And they have been led, over the
6 years -- Steve Kleinberg was here with him,
7 and Steve and Charmaine Townsell, they have
8 been the leaders of this group, and they've
9 done so much for so many of the students.
10 And to really to everybody, we thank
11 you for your patience.
12 I said I'd be brief.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So we go to
14 Assemblyman Smullen.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: Yeah, thank you,
16 Chair. I'll pick up where Chair Fahy left
17 off with On Point.
18 I had a couple of questions regarding
19 to the -- how many people have you served,
20 say, last year? And how did you adjust
21 during the pandemic? I know it was a very
22 tumultuous, chaotic period for an
23 organization such as yours.
24 MR. ROWSER: So during the pandemic,
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1 like many, we went virtual. And we did a lot
2 of our work virtually. We still had to do
3 some in-person stuff, so we masked up, got
4 the sanitizer, and we loaded students up and
5 we drove them around the state to the various
6 colleges that they go to. Because part of
7 what we do is provide transportation to any
8 student within five hours of Central
9 New York to where they want to go.
10 Each year we bring in between 300 and
11 500 new students into the system. We have
12 anywhere between 1700 and 2500 that are
13 always in school at any given time.
14 And then our third pillar, career
15 services, which we -- is where we do our
16 workforce, is working with anywhere up
17 towards 600 students each year, to help them
18 transition.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: And you said
20 during the pandemic you did some of it
21 online. Would you be able to do more of that
22 with, say, rural students? You know, if you
23 got a kid that's out in a rural area but
24 really needs your knowledge and your
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1 experience and your wisdom, would you be able
2 to service students like that in a broader
3 area?
4 MR. ROWSER: It would be, if they had
5 broadband or if they had an internet
6 connection.
7 So we actually are in the rural
8 communities now. We're in Oswego County and
9 we're in six school districts in Oswego
10 County. So we actually go to them to provide
11 those services.
12 One of the things we did last year is
13 we were the first organization -- probably
14 the only organization to take a group of
15 young people to Manassas, Virginia, to the
16 Micron plant. And we pulled those students
17 out of Oswego County or Onondaga County,
18 Oneida County, and put them on a bus to go
19 down there. So we're going to them, because
20 they don't have internet connections in those
21 rural communities and so you have to go to
22 them.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: Well, we
24 appreciate you meeting people where they need
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1 to be met in order to, you know, to get them
2 through this transition from the K-12 system
3 into the college system, for a variety of
4 different things.
5 The funding that you have, is it
6 adequate, what you're getting from the state?
7 I know you have a variety of funding sources.
8 Could you please quickly explain that?
9 MR. ROWSER: Well, we do have a
10 smorgasbord of funding. We get it from a
11 variety of places. Because of our expansion,
12 someone will help us with our access piece,
13 we need help with the success piece. So
14 getting them in is one thing, but now we've
15 got to pay to keep them in. And that's the
16 part that we need help from the state. We've
17 got co-serve agreements to get them in,
18 between BOCES and the school districts, so
19 now we need state funding to help them stay
20 in. And that's where our shortfall is.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: I really want to
22 commend you for all that you do for these
23 kids to get through this transition,
24 especially in a very complicated thing where
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1 you're almost standing in loco parentis in
2 many ways for them.
3 And it's really special. Glad that
4 you're in part of my district. And I urge
5 all my colleagues to fully support it.
6 Thank you.
7 MR. ROWSER: Thank you.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
10 Senator Murray.
11 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you,
12 Chairwoman.
13 Thank you all for being here and for
14 your patience in sticking it out.
15 Just want to pose something. We've
16 heard all afternoon about the importance of
17 increasing the threshold for TAP, and I agree
18 a hundred percent. But I'd like to get your
19 thoughts because, Ms. Sisti, you had
20 mentioned rate of inflation, indexing it to
21 the rate.
22 Would it be fairer if we simply set
23 the base, took the 10 regional economic
24 development regions, took the 10 regions and
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1 base it, the threshold, on the regional -- a
2 percentage of the regional median income?
3 For example, right now the 80,000 threshold
4 in parts of upstate may not be too bad,
5 whereas on Long Island it's ridiculous.
6 Wouldn't it be fairer, what would your
7 thoughts be to basing it on a percentage of
8 the regional median income?
9 MS. SISTI: I'm going to answer this
10 question to the best of my ability.
11 But I think that's a very tricky
12 slope. Because like you were saying,
13 obviously if you are living on Long Island,
14 things like taxes are a lot higher, just the
15 cost of living has skyrocketed, even in
16 low-income communities like Brentwood. So I
17 think that to have it be like a margin as --
18 and a total like an average, I just think
19 that could be a little tricky and that may be
20 unfair for people from where they pay higher
21 property taxes or higher cost of living.
22 I just think it's like a little bit of
23 a tricky slope.
24 SENATOR MURRAY: I think maybe you're
357
1 missing the point, in that it would be
2 10 different regions based on that region's
3 median income. So Long Island would have a
4 higher threshold, whereas maybe upstate would
5 have a lower threshold because their cost of
6 living is much lower. To make it fair.
7 MS. SISTI: Thank you for rephrasing
8 the question.
9 I think I agree with you that it would
10 be fairer. I think, you know, coming from a
11 background where I am an orphan, I am
12 actually a part of this foster-youth program
13 at my college where I pay for college
14 completely on my own, a zero-income
15 independent student. So I think that if
16 people base it off of Long Island's, you
17 know, income tax and all of those things, it
18 would be helpful.
19 MR. HORNER: Just to mention one other
20 thing. It's a little -- it makes it more
21 complicated. And so if you're a senior at
22 SUNY Oswego and you live there 12 months out
23 of the year, how does that count?
24 SENATOR MURRAY: Good point.
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1 MR. HORNER: And so, you know -- I
2 mean the system's already ridiculously
3 complicated. And so I think -- I applaud the
4 sort of the notion, because at some point you
5 have to pay for all of this. But the
6 inflation adjustment would be helpful too.
7 SENATOR MURRAY: Anyone else?
8 Okay. Well, thank you very much.
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
10 We go to Assemblywoman Hyndman.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you.
12 I don't think a joint public hearing
13 for higher ed would be complete without
14 On Point.
15 (Laughter.)
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: I think as
17 long as I've been here, you've been here.
18 So you have a $500,000 ask in this
19 year's budget. Have you been receiving,
20 every time you've testified, the requested
21 amount? I'm just curious.
22 MR. ROWSER: Never.
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: No?
24 MR. ROWSER: I've never received a
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1 requested amount.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Oh. Always
3 less.
4 MR. ROWSER: Much less.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Always less,
6 okay. Thank you.
7 MR. ROWSER: But we keep hope alive.
8 (Laughter.)
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: I'm in Queens,
10 but my colleagues in -- Assemblymember Hunter
11 speaks very highly of the program and its
12 effectiveness. So thank you.
13 And thank you all for your testimony.
14 Thank you.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Robert
16 Jackson.
17 SENATOR JACKSON: So you said a lot
18 less. But are you receiving money from the
19 Senate or the Assembly? If you know.
20 MR. ROWSER: They both tell me they
21 all gave me the 200 that we get. We get 200
22 the last couple of years. Three years ago I
23 think we got 400, but the last two years we
24 got two. Both say they did it.
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1 SENATOR JACKSON: Okay, that -- I like
2 that. Teamwork makes the dream work, right?
3 MR. ROWSER: That's what they say.
4 That's what they say.
5 SENATOR JACKSON: And what about the
6 organizations that you're affiliated with in
7 Manhattan and the Bronx?
8 MR. ROWSER: Goddard Riverside, the
9 options program. What we do is any of our
10 students that come downstate to school, they
11 will go to the campuses and visit them. Any
12 of their students that come upstate to
13 school, we will visit their students and
14 check on them.
15 Because of our relationship with
16 Goddard and New Settlement in the Bronx, any
17 of their students that go to Syracuse
18 University will have their tuition waived.
19 That's one of the agreements we have with
20 Syracuse University as an On Point for
21 College program, and our program affiliates
22 get the same benefit.
23 SENATOR JACKSON: Union Settlement, is
24 that based in Manhattan on 104th Street?
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1 MR. ROWSER: New Settlement is in the
2 Bronx. On Walton Street. I think it's on
3 Walton Street is where their office is.
4 SENATOR JACKSON: Okay. And as far as
5 the young woman, as far as the scholarship, I
6 think that I'm so happy for you because
7 you're getting a good education and you're
8 going to be part of -- right now you're part
9 of the leadership of leading the way, which
10 is very, very important.
11 MS. SISTI: Thank you.
12 SENATOR JACKSON: And as far as
13 fostering youth success, we have to help all
14 that we can. In my involvement in education,
15 it doesn't matter who you are, whether you're
16 Black, white, Asian, rich, poor -- it doesn't
17 matter. We're trying to get all of you a
18 good education so you can be our future
19 leaders of our great state. So please keep
20 up the work that you're doing. I'm proud of
21 all of you.
22 (Inaudible exchange.)
23 SENATOR JACKSON: All the time. Like
24 me, right?
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1 (Laughter.)
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
3 To close out this hearing, a question
4 by Assemblymember Eachus.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Thank you, Chair.
6 We have two chairs with patience like
7 angels. And I thank them for that.
8 Thank you all for what you do. I
9 really, really thank you. I thank you for
10 being here and all.
11 But I just want to point out, Marcy,
12 my family has been personally affected by
13 exactly what you're talking about. It is my
14 hope -- I am Assemblymember Chris Eachus --
15 that you contact my office and we can be sure
16 that you get the proper support that you
17 need.
18 DR. FERDSCHNEIDER: Thank you so much,
19 sir.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Sure.
21 Deidra, thank you. Having had
22 13 foster brothers and sisters myself, they
23 can have a very traumatic life as they grow
24 up, and they need all the support that we can
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1 give them. So congratulations and thank you
2 very much for that.
3 And then, finally, Alexandria. Were
4 you here when we were talking to Dr. Linares
5 from HESC?
6 MS. SISTI: Yes.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: Yeah. I was
8 making some statements from my personal
9 experience of being in high school. You're
10 not that far away from high school,
11 especially compared to most of us here.
12 Would you agree that the NY FAFSA
13 READY program really needs more promotion
14 than what it's getting? When you talk about
15 disadvantaged students, you're right, it
16 doesn't necessarily mean that they're poor or
17 anything else like that, but they're
18 generally not connected with school the way
19 better students are. And we need to really
20 get to them to fill out the FAFSA form to go
21 to the next step with your TAP and Excelsior
22 and so on like that.
23 MS. SISTI: Yes, I would have to agree
24 with you that it is a very important program
364
1 and it definitely needs to be put in the
2 forefront to high schoolers.
3 Children at my high school -- I know a
4 lot of the times college -- they wouldn't
5 even think about it because just the idea of
6 filling out the form for FAFSA was terrifying
7 to them. You know, a lot of people that are
8 in my town are undocumented immigrants and
9 their parents may not speak English, so it's
10 up to them, at 17 years old, to figure out
11 how to fill out FAFSA completely on their
12 own. And that's not okay, and that's not
13 fair. You know?
14 I'm lucky enough to have an aunt that
15 helps me along the way, but that wouldn't
16 have been unless her daughter went to college
17 before me. I think that FAFSA is very
18 confusing, it's a very confusing form to fill
19 out. I have friends that tell me all the
20 time, they're like, I get no money but it's
21 because I don't know how to fill it out
22 properly, so I'll just pay for college out of
23 pocket and be in debt for the rest of my
24 life.
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1 And nobody should have to do that to
2 achieve a higher education to get to where
3 they want to be in this world.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN EACHUS: And I put that
5 responsibility on me, and hopefully my other
6 fellow legislators accept the same thing.
7 Thank you very much.
8 MS. SISTI: Thank you.
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
10 We actually have one more questioner
11 from Assemblywoman Jo Anne Simon.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you. And
13 thank you to all of you for your really
14 excellent testimony.
15 And, you know, I just want to endorse
16 Assemblymember Fahy's comments about
17 Mr. Soto's testimony as well as yours, you
18 know, working with foster students. So few
19 foster students are able to be successful in
20 college, and it really is an incredible area
21 that we need to focus on.
22 And thank you, Alexandria for your
23 work as well.
24 You know, one of the issues with FAFSA
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1 of course is reading levels, is familiarity.
2 It's also disability accommodations on the
3 filling out of that FAFSA form, which needs
4 to improve.
5 But I have a question for Mr. Rowser.
6 MR. ROWSER: Yes.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: And that is your
8 program strikes me as having a lot of
9 similarities with some of the TRIO programs,
10 the Upward Bound and also students' special
11 services. Is that something that you guys
12 have thought about, or would you have access
13 to such -- that type of federal funding as
14 well?
15 MR. ROWSER: We have not had access to
16 that kind of federal funding in the past. We
17 do work with many of the TRIO programs.
18 A little bit different in what we
19 do -- and I just heard the young lady talk
20 about FAFSA -- is we do FAFSA completion
21 programs. We go around the city to all the
22 high schools in the communities. We provide
23 transportation -- some of the things that the
24 TRIO programs don't do, On Point does.
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1 You know, if a student has a toothache
2 and they need dental care, we have dentists
3 who do pro bono work, so we go pick them up,
4 bring them home, fix their teeth and take
5 them back. So just, you know, a little bit
6 more. But we have not had access to TRIO
7 funding. We tried.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: I used to run a
9 TRIO program, so I always think about those
10 programs. And if there's a way that you
11 could maybe, you know, take advantage of
12 them, if they can be helpful to you or not --
13 I don't know if it's true or not.
14 MR. ROWSER: We've got about
15 98 percent, we haven't got higher when we
16 applied. We're working on it, though.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Keep doing the
18 great work you're doing. It's really
19 impressive. Thank you.
20 MR. ROWSER: We need On Point
21 everywhere.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
23 So with that, we conclude the -- first
24 I just want to thank the panel for being
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1 here, colleagues for being here.
2 So with that, we conclude the
3 Higher Ed hearing, joint budget hearing for
4 today. Our next joint budget hearing will be
5 on Tuesday the 13th. Starting at 9:30, we
6 will be addressing the Governor's mental
7 health budget.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you,
9 everyone.
10 (Whereupon, at 3:37 p.m., the budget
11 hearing concluded.)
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