1
1 BEFORE THE NEW YORK STATE SENATE FINANCE
AND ASSEMBLY WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEES
2 ------------------------------------------------------
3 JOINT LEGISLATIVE HEARING
4 In the Matter of the
2024-2025 EXECUTIVE BUDGET
5 ON HOUSING
6 ------------------------------------------------------
7 Hearing Room B
Legislative Office Building
8 Albany, NY
9 February 14, 2024
12:06 p.m.
10
11 PRESIDING:
12 Assemblywoman Helene E. Weinstein
Chair, Assembly Ways & Means Committee
13
Senator Brian Kavanagh
14 Chair, Senate Housing Committee
15 PRESENT:
16 Assemblyman Edward P. Ra
Assembly Ways & Means Committee (RM)
17
Senator Thomas O'Mara
18 Senate Finance Committee (RM)
19 Assemblywoman Linda B. Rosenthal
Chair, Assembly Housing Committee
20
Senator Pamela Helming
21
Assemblyman Keith P. Brown
22
Senator Rachel May
23
Assemblyman Edward C. Braunstein
24
2
1 2024-2025 Executive Budget
Housing
2 2-14-24
3 PRESENT: (Continued)
4 Senator Julia Salazar
5 Assemblyman Erik M. Dilan
6 Assemblywoman Yudelka Tapia
7 Senator Jabari Brisport
8 Assemblyman Tony Simone
9 Senator Robert Jackson
10 Assemblyman Harvey Epstein
11 Senator Zellnor Myrie
12 Assemblywoman Dr. Anna R. Kelles
13 Assemblyman Demond Meeks
14 Senator Brad Hoylman-Sigal
15 Assemblyman Chris Burdick
16 Senator Cordell Cleare
17 Assemblywoman Grace Lee
18 Assemblywoman Jo Anne Simon
19 Assemblyman Al Taylor
20 Senator Jack M. Martins
21 Assemblywoman Dana Levenberg
22 Assemblyman Brian Manktelow
23 Senator Leroy Comrie
24 Assemblywoman Marcela Mitaynes
3
1 2024-2025 Executive Budget
Housing
2 2-14-24
3 PRESENT: (Continued)
4
Assemblywoman Monique Chandler-Waterman
5
Senator George M. Borrello
6
Assemblywoman Nikki Lucas
7
Assemblyman Jeff Gallahan
8
9
10
11
12 LIST OF SPEAKERS
13 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
14 RuthAnne Visnauskas
Commissioner & CEO
15 New York State Homes and
Community Renewal 13 20
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
4
1 2024-2025 Executive Budget
Housing
2 2-14-24
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont.
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Jolie Milstein
President and CEO
6 NYS Assn. for Affordable Housing
-and-
7 Mark Streb
Executive Director
8 Neighborhood Preservation
Coalition of NYS
9 -and-
Erin Burns-Maine
10 Senior Vice President for
Policy and Government Affairs
11 Community Preservation Corporation
-and-
12 William J. Simmons
President
13 NYS Public Housing Authority
Directors Association
14 -and-
Sylvia Morse
15 Policy Program Manager
Pratt Center for Community
16 Development
-on behalf of-
17 Basement Apartments Safe
for Everyone 173 190
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
5
1 2024-2025 Executive Budget
Housing
2 2-14-24
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont.
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Jacob Inwald
Director of Litigation-Economic
6 Justice
Legal Services NYC
7 -and-
Erica Zimny
8 Deputy Director
Legal Services Access Alliance
9 -and-
Christie Peale
10 Executive Director and CEO
Center for NYC Neighborhoods
11 -and-
Randy Dillard
12 Tenant Leader
CASA
13 Steering Committee Member
Right to Counsel Coalition
14 -and-
Michael McKee
15 Treasurer
Tenants PAC 222 238
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
6
1 2024-2025 Executive Budget
Housing
2 2-14-24
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont.
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Megan Wylie
Director, Government Relations
6 New York Building Congress
-and-
7 Manny Pastreich
President
8 32BJ SEIU
-and-
9 Bria Donohue
Government Affairs Manager
10 American Institute of Architects
New York
11 -and-
Rachel Fee
12 Executive Director
New York Housing Conference
13 -and-
Annemarie Gray
14 Executive Director
Open New York 280 298
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
7
1 2024-2025 Executive Budget
Housing
2 2-14-24
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont.
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Emily Goldstein
Director of Organizing and
6 Advocacy
Association for Neighborhood
7 and Housing Development (ANHD)
-and-
8 Rashida Taylor
Project Manager
9 Interfaith Affordable Housing
Collaborative and Partnership for
10 Faith-Based Housing and
Community Development
11 -and-
Patrick Boyle
12 Senior Director, NY
Enterprise Community Partners
13 -and-
Dr. Sandhya Kajeepeta
14 Senior Researcher
Thurgood Marshall Institute
15 NAACP Legal Defense and
Educational Fund
16 -and-
Barbara Williams
17 Member
Community Voices Heard
18 -and-
Jennifer Hernandez
19 Staff Member
Make the Road New York 322 340
20
21
22
23
24
8
1 2024-2025 Executive Budget
Housing
2 2-14-24
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont.
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Michael Borges
Executive Director
6 Rural Housing Coalition
of New York
7 -and-
Lori Bellingham
8 VP for Community Impact
Adirondack Foundation
9 -and-
Blair W. Sebastian
10 Advocate
New York State Rural Advocates 356 366
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
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9
1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Good afternoon.
2 We'll officially start. I am Helene
3 Weinstein, chair of the Assembly's Ways and
4 Means Committee, and today we begin the 13th
5 and actually the last in a series of hearings
6 conducted by the joint fiscal committees of
7 the Legislature regarding the Governor's
8 proposed budget for fiscal year '24-'25.
9 The hearings are conducted pursuant to
10 the Constitution and the Legislative Law, and
11 today the Assembly Ways and Means Committee
12 and the Senate Finance Committee will hear
13 testimony concerning the Governor's proposal
14 for housing.
15 I will now introduce the members of
16 the Assembly who are -- Democratic members of
17 the Assembly who are here, and then
18 Senator Kavanagh, who is filling in for
19 Chair Liz Krueger, will introduce his
20 colleagues. And then the Minority members
21 will be introduced.
22 So we have with us the Housing chair
23 of the Assembly, Linda Rosenthal;
24 Assemblyman Braunstein; Assemblyman Burdick;
10
1 Assemblyman Dilan; Assemblyman Epstein;
2 Assemblywoman Simon; Assemblywoman Tapia;
3 Assemblyman Simone; Assemblywoman Mitaynes.
4 And Senator Kavanagh, if you want to
5 introduce your members.
6 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Again, I'm
7 State Senator Brian Kavanagh, filling in as a
8 poor substitute for Liz Krueger, our
9 Finance chair.
10 And we're joined on the Majority side
11 in the Senate by Senators Brad Hoylman;
12 Zellnor Myrie; Jabari Brisport; and Julia
13 Salazar.
14 SENATOR O'MARA: And --
15 SENATOR KAVANAGH: And, forgive me,
16 also Cordell Cleare, who's obscured by the
17 speaker and sitting by her friend Jo Anne
18 Simon.
19 SENATOR O'MARA: And on our side, I am
20 Finance Ranker Senator Tom O'Mara.
21 We're joined by our Housing ranker,
22 Senator Pam Helming, and Senator George
23 Borrello.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman Ra,
11
1 our ranker on Ways and Means.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you. Good
3 afternoon.
4 We're joined by Assemblyman Keith
5 Brown, who is filling in as our ranker on
6 Housing for Mr. Fitzpatrick.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So now a few
8 ground rules.
9 Shut off your cellphones.
10 The governmental witness here today,
11 the commissioner, will have 10 minutes to
12 present her testimony.
13 When we go to the panels of
14 nongovernmental witnesses, each member of
15 that panel will have three minutes to present
16 their testimony. Just remember, three
17 minutes goes fast.
18 And we have -- all of your written
19 testimonies have been submitted and are or
20 will be posted on both the Senate and
21 Assembly's websites. So please don't read
22 your testimony, just tell us the highlights.
23 In terms of questions and answers from
24 the legislators, for the chairs -- in this
12
1 case, Senator Kavanagh and Assemblymember
2 Rosenthal -- you have 10 minutes to ask
3 questions of our Housing commissioner. Then
4 both chairs can get a three-minute second
5 round if needed.
6 The rankers on the respective
7 committees, Housing and Ways and Means, have
8 five minutes to ask a question. And all
9 other members of the relevant committee have
10 three minutes.
11 And just to remind the legislators,
12 the time frame is both for the question and
13 for the answer. So please be kind to the
14 people testifying and don't leave them
15 10 seconds to answer a lengthy question.
16 So with that -- oh. Just everybody
17 keep an eye on the clock -- legislators,
18 testifiers. When it's green, you can speak.
19 When it goes yellow, you still can talk, but
20 that means you only have a minute left. And
21 when it's red, it's time to get up.
22 And Commissioner, if there are
23 questions you don't have time to answer, feel
24 free to -- well, not feel free, but we'd like
13
1 you to then send written responses to those
2 questions to both the chairs of Ways and
3 Means and Senate Finance.
4 And with that, with those ground
5 rules -- and we may have some additional
6 members that will come join us -- I'm very
7 happy to welcome the New York State Homes and
8 Community Renewal commissioner and CEO,
9 RuthAnne Visnauskas.
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Great. Hi.
11 Good afternoon and happy Valentine's
12 Day, Chairs Weinstein and Senator Kavanagh.
13 I am RuthAnne Visnauskas, commissioner and
14 CEO of New York State Homes and Community
15 Renewal, and it's my pleasure to testify
16 before you today on Governor Hochul's 2025
17 Executive Budget and HCR's efforts to address
18 New York's housing crisis.
19 As the Governor has said repeatedly
20 over the past year, the shortage of housing
21 is driving up costs and driving people out of
22 New York State. And the only thing that will
23 solve this issue is to increase the supply of
24 homes.
14
1 If we need more proof that we need a
2 major housing production boom, we have that
3 in the latest Housing and Vacancy Survey,
4 which pegs New York City's rental vacancy
5 rate at a shocking 1.41 percent, the lowest
6 in 56 years. A healthy vacancy rate is
7 considered somewhere between 5 and 8 percent.
8 And for asking rents below $2,400, the
9 availability of units is at a functional
10 zero.
11 A vacancy rate this low places
12 enormous pressure on our housing market and
13 enormous stress on our families. What is
14 more disheartening than starting your search
15 for housing knowing less than 1 percent of
16 units in New York City are even available to
17 you?
18 This is exactly why enacting the
19 housing supply elements of Governor Hochul's
20 2025 budget is more important than ever.
21 I like to think we may be poised to
22 turn the corner, but while the Governor's
23 100,000-unit Housing Plan is on track, it
24 cannot, on its own, create the housing that
15
1 we need in this state. There is no doubt
2 that we still need to generate hundreds of
3 thousands of homes over the next decade to
4 make up for severe underproduction. All
5 communities and levels of government must be
6 part of the solution.
7 We still need significant legislative
8 changes to allow for production at scale to
9 meet the demand. That is our mission, and it
10 will be our legacy for New Yorkers -- for
11 young people looking to buy a first home, for
12 families that need room to grow, and for
13 older New Yorkers who want to remain in
14 communities they've lived in their entire
15 lives.
16 We're nearing completion of the second
17 year of the Governor's $25 billion, five-year
18 Housing Plan, and I'm proud to say that in
19 the first two years, we are on track to
20 create and preserve nearly 40,000 affordable
21 homes.
22 A couple of highlights from the past
23 year. I'm proud to note that New York was
24 the first state to gain approval for our plan
16
1 to spend $450 million in American Recovery
2 Act funds, and that we have expended all of
3 this federal funding to assist 18,000
4 households in stabilizing their homes. We
5 provided $26 million to help 24 land banks
6 revitalize communities across the state.
7 We're delivering $50 million in home
8 repair funds to targeted communities in every
9 part of the state, focusing on communities
10 with the highest rate of homeownership among
11 homeowners of color and where there are
12 significant indicators of housing distress.
13 We provided $5 million in Main Street
14 Grants to reinvest in our state's Main
15 Streets.
16 For our affordable home ownership
17 program, we've approved over 500 projected
18 homes for sale so far.
19 And lastly, our financing programs
20 require stringent design and sustainability
21 guidelines. And through our Clean Energy
22 Initiative with NYSERDA, this year we awarded
23 more than $12 million to 18 different
24 projects that meet or exceed New York State's
17
1 climate goals.
2 Nearly every New Yorker understands
3 the huge effort and fortitude it takes to
4 secure a decent, safe and affordable home in
5 the neighborhood of their choice.
6 The Pro-Housing Community program,
7 launched in 2023, remains a key component to
8 this pressing challenge. Going forward,
9 municipalities will now be required to be
10 certified as pro-housing in order to qualify
11 for up to $650 million in discretionary
12 funding, including the Downtown
13 Revitalization Initiative, the NY Forward
14 program, and our own New York Main Street
15 program.
16 To further efforts to increase housing
17 supply, the Governor's budget proposes
18 $500 million over two years to assist state
19 agencies in repurposing their properties for
20 housing.
21 New York City, given its dangerously
22 low vacancy rate and the critical importance
23 of maintaining its status and its
24 world-leading role as an economic driver and
18
1 a center for creativity, has a real starring
2 role in the budget this year. Legislation to
3 increase the housing supply in New York City
4 includes a new tax incentive for the
5 development of rental housing, an extension
6 of the deadline for developments that were
7 vested in the prior tax incentive program,
8 authority for the city to lift outdated
9 residential density restrictions, a tax
10 incentive to encourage affordable housing in
11 office conversions, and a path towards
12 legalizing existing basement and cellar
13 apartments.
14 Through it all, we must keep pushing
15 back on discriminatory practices on the part
16 of industries and landlords. We will
17 continue to aggressively enforce the state
18 and federal Fair Housing laws. New Yorkers
19 deserve that respect and protection.
20 Further, the Governor's plan proposes
21 legislation to increase protections for
22 affordable housing providers by prohibiting
23 insurance carriers from raising premiums or
24 denying coverage based on tenant source of
19
1 income, the existence of affordable housing
2 units, or if the building's residents are in
3 receipt of government assistance. When these
4 costs go up, they increase the cost of
5 operating housing.
6 Finally, the Governor has proposed
7 legislation to protect homeowners by creating
8 a clear definition of the crime of deed
9 theft, to enhance enforcement and other
10 measures to prevent against this terrible
11 crime.
12 I've traveled from one end of New York
13 to the other this past year, attending
14 meetings, taking tours, officiating at
15 ribbon-cuttings and ground-breakings. In
16 Schenectady I helped cut the ribbon on
17 Northside Village, a newly redeveloped public
18 housing complex that will provide 300 modern,
19 affordable and energy-efficient homes. And I
20 was thrilled to celebrate the opening of 55
21 new apartments at The Green at Garvies Point
22 in Glen Cove, on Long Island's North Shore.
23 But whatever the location or type of
24 development, I'm always deeply moved by the
20
1 incredible impact that getting a permanent,
2 safe home has on New York's individuals and
3 families. There is no substitute for that
4 experience. And what remains abundantly
5 clear is that the state's housing crisis will
6 only be remedied with bold and creative
7 solutions that significantly increase our
8 supply and thereby drive down prices.
9 The urgency of this housing crisis
10 demands action. The Governor's initiatives,
11 as expressed in her Executive Budget,
12 encompass our idea for meeting the housing
13 needs for all New Yorkers, and with your help
14 I know we will meet this challenge head on.
15 Thank you, and I'm ready to take your
16 questions.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
18 We go first to the Assembly Housing
19 chair, Assemblywoman Rosenthal.
20 I just want to acknowledge we've been
21 joined by Assemblywoman Lee and
22 Assemblyman Braunstein and
23 Assemblyman Gallahan.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Thank you,
21
1 Chair Weinstein.
2 It's good to see everyone. And hello,
3 Commissioner. And hello, out there to
4 everybody in the audience for tuning in to
5 this most important hearing -- the last, but
6 the most important, because it concerns
7 housing.
8 So, Commissioner, I have a number of
9 different questions. My first question would
10 be -- last year the Governor put no money in
11 for HOPP funding, which you know is used
12 throughout the state and helps keep tenants
13 in their homes and helps homeowners stay in
14 their homes. Yet there's no funding this
15 year in the budget again.
16 Can you explain why?
17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes. Last
18 year it was a legislative add, and we would
19 look forward to working with the Legislature
20 on that this year as well.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: So the
22 Legislature has to put it in, not the
23 Governor. Even though I think you have cited
24 and the Governor has said how important these
22
1 kinds of funds are.
2 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes, we look
3 forward to working with you to put that in
4 the budget.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: (Laughing.)
6 Okay. So we all know about the housing
7 crisis. And right now there's not enough
8 housing of any type, but there's not enough
9 housing for people who make -- who are
10 low-income earners or even middle-income
11 earners.
12 So can you tell me over the past
13 10 years how much affordable housing has been
14 created through the 421-a program? And, if
15 you know, at what income bands.
16 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I believe
17 the stat that's generally been used, you
18 know, in sort of research and press articles
19 is that between 2010 and 2020, about
20 70,000 units of housing were produced through
21 the program in New York City.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Okay. And
23 are they all still affordable? Some of them
24 will expire, no?
23
1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Those
2 were between 2010 and 2020. I believe those
3 would all still be affordable.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Okay, can
5 you explain why -- and I know this is not
6 you, but we've heard from developers they're
7 just not building. And why do you think that
8 is?
9 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Well, as you
10 know, that program has expired and it's a
11 sort of quick --
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: They're not
13 building anything.
14 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Right,
15 including rental housing. And I think with
16 the absence of that tax exemption, the
17 finances of the rental projects, given the
18 property tax structure in New York City,
19 doesn't sort of pencil or make economic
20 sense.
21 So you're right, you've seen a
22 decrease in the production of new rental
23 housing since the expiration of the program.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: So you think
24
1 that absent a tax incentive there will be no
2 building?
3 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I believe
4 the stat is that 70 percent of the units
5 produced between 2010 and 2020 utilized
6 421-a. So yes, I think in the absence of
7 that exemption you would see a significant
8 decrease in production.
9 And we see that now in the permit
10 data, right? There's permit data that is out
11 for 2023 that shows a significant drop in
12 permits last year.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Okay.
14 The Governor talks a lot about
15 pro-housing community, but there are scant
16 details in the budget about what that means.
17 And I wonder if you'd explain that.
18 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure.
19 The Pro-Housing Communities program
20 was launched last July -- announced last July
21 by the Governor. And we at HCR opened up the
22 program in September. And localities can
23 apply, there's sort of three steps to apply
24 to get certified.
25
1 And as proposed in the budget this
2 year, the certification would be a
3 prerequisite for a series of state funding
4 programs that go to municipalities.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: But that's
6 vague. I mean, can you explain more?
7 Because I've had a lot of people ask me what
8 does it mean, and nobody can figure it out
9 because the details are so sparse.
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure. Is
11 there anything specifically you'd want me to
12 cover?
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: No, no, no.
14 Just -- there's not much info there.
15 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure.
16 So there's three ways that you apply.
17 You submit us a letter of intent. You submit
18 us your zoning code and your building permit
19 data. And then you either, through your
20 building permits, reflect that you have
21 either grown -- which is the third way to get
22 certified, the sort of third piece -- and if
23 you haven't grown, then we would ask that you
24 pass a resolution locally that has a series
26
1 of sort of pro-housing statements in it about
2 reducing regulation to housing, wanting to
3 grow your housing stock, that type of thing.
4 Those are the sort of three steps a
5 community has to take to get certified.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: So have any
7 localities been certified so far?
8 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes. Twenty
9 have been certified so far, and we have about
10 hundred other localities that we're working
11 with in the process.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Okay. So
13 Mitchell-Lama is one of the most successful
14 programs, yet many developments are -- well,
15 in my opinion, not supervised properly, and
16 many projects are trying to get out of deep
17 holes because they can't keep up with
18 repairs, et cetera.
19 I notice there's no money -- it's once
20 again an Assembly and Senate add for
21 Mitchell-Lama funding.
22 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So we had
23 funding in the Housing Plan for
24 Mitchell-Lamas. We -- in the course of the
27
1 last Housing Plan, we had a series of
2 legislative adds. We have actually just
3 finished spending those down, so we haven't
4 touched any of the $150 million that's in the
5 second Housing Plan. We haven't spent any of
6 that yet, so we didn't feel that we needed
7 any additional funding this year for
8 Mitchell-Lamas since we haven't spent any of
9 that funding yet.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: The previous
11 421-a program, has HCR identified any
12 particular areas of concern that need to be
13 fixed or adjusted should there be another
14 421-a-type plan?
15 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I would say
16 that in the proposal from last year, and sort
17 of consistent to this year, there are some
18 changes around reporting. There are changes
19 around affordability. There were obviously
20 parts of the program that people didn't feel
21 were affordable enough, and so some changes
22 to those.
23 So yes, I would say that I think
24 there's -- has been and sort of continues to
28
1 be proposals out there for modifications to
2 the program in order for it to be reenacted.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Do you think
4 that commercial conversions should include
5 affordable housing, and how much?
6 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So the
7 Governor has proposed a tax exemption for
8 commercial conversions in the City of
9 New York that would create affordable housing
10 in them. So yes, we certainly do agree with
11 that.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: But what
13 percentage of these buildings?
14 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: It's -- as
15 proposed, 20 percent.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: And do you
17 think that's enough?
18 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I think that
19 commercial conversions are challenging.
20 Right? All the buildings are very different.
21 And what it takes to convert them from a
22 commercial building to residential, I think
23 the economics can be hard for those buildings
24 to be sort of economically viable.
29
1 So we felt that that was a good
2 proposal. But as I said, it's -- it's a --
3 because all the buildings are so different,
4 it's a hard thing to model sort of the
5 finances of those buildings.
6 But yes, we felt comfortable with
7 20 percent.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: So the
9 vacancy rate and the number of apartments
10 registered with ORA has dropped. In '23
11 there were 996,600 rent-stabilized units.
12 And what are -- how many are there now?
13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Well, the
14 registrations come in on a rolling basis, so
15 that number changes, you know, sort of week
16 by week and month by month as people continue
17 to register. I don't have the current number
18 off the top of my head.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: But there
20 are fewer vacant than there were --
21 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Oh, yes.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: And why is
23 that?
24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Our -- I
30
1 mean, we believe that the spike that we saw
2 two years ago was due to the pandemic, and we
3 are back to historic norms for vacancy in the
4 system. And this is apartments that are
5 vacant as of April 1st each year.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Okay. Can
7 you tell me how much -- of the $4.5 billion
8 five-year Housing Plan, how much of the money
9 has been spent?
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We can give
11 you sort of a breakdown probably program by
12 program.
13 When we laid it out initially, we
14 assumed that we would spend, you know, sort
15 of on average about 20 percent of it each
16 year. But some of our programs, especially
17 when they're new -- like, for example, our
18 homeownership program we started last year,
19 we didn't spend any of that money last year.
20 We are starting to spend that this year, so
21 some of it has lagged.
22 But we can get you a
23 program-by-program spend.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Okay. How
31
1 long are PARs taking to deal with? Because I
2 have some constituents waiting two years for
3 any kind of decision from HCR, which puts
4 them in a funny position.
5 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yeah. So I
6 guess I would say in the case of PARs, they
7 are all different, right, because they're
8 very fact-specific and case-specific.
9 I don't know what our sort of average
10 time is by type, but we'd be -- we'd be happy
11 to circle back with you if there's specific
12 types that you're -- if you want to know how
13 long the PARs are taking, we can follow up.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Okay.
15 How many people are employed in the
16 Tenant Protection Unit?
17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We have 25
18 current employees.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: And are
20 there allocations for more?
21 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes. We're
22 currently hiring. As you recall from the
23 budget last year, we expanded up into the
24 Hudson Valley. And so we are still doing
32
1 some recruiting to get staff to work in that
2 part of the state.
3 But we are actively looking for
4 people.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: So in terms
6 of keeping tenants in their homes and
7 providing advice to homeowners, there are
8 NPPs and RPPs that the Governor cut the
9 funding and the Legislature added millions of
10 dollars.
11 Isn't it worthwhile to fund that? Why
12 didn't the Governor fund that?
13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: The program
14 is back funded at its traditional sort of
15 base amount. And we will continue to
16 administer those contracts as funded in the
17 budget process.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: I know you
19 will, but why wasn't the -- why weren't these
20 programs important enough for the Governor to
21 fund? Because they are clearly successful;
22 they are oversubscribed. And they need a lot
23 more money to keep people in their homes.
24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I think we
33
1 would look forward to working with the
2 Legislature if you want to add additional
3 funding to those programs.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
6 To the Senate.
7 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Thank you.
8 It's good to see you here, and
9 Team HCR. I think we have some
10 representatives from the Governor's office
11 here as well.
12 Just a few questions about some of the
13 funding items that were included last year
14 and again, as you noted in the prior
15 testimony, partly as a response to some
16 legislative adds.
17 But the -- there's $50 million in --
18 in multiple -- most years we've added money
19 for Mitchell-Lama assistance in capital, on
20 the capital side. Last year there was
21 $50 million. This year there's nothing in
22 the Executive Budget for that.
23 Can you just talk about the status of
24 past capital allocations for Mitchell-Lamas
34
1 and sort of whether you have money on hand or
2 whether -- how much of an additional need
3 there might be for that?
4 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes. As I
5 had mentioned, we -- in the course of the
6 first Housing Plan we started with I think it
7 was 125 or $150 million, and then we got a
8 series of legislative adds -- 100, 125, 25.
9 And so we -- and then we started the second
10 Housing Plan two years ago with 150.
11 So we have actually, in the last year
12 or two, still been spending down the money
13 from the first Housing Plan, spending down
14 those legislative adds. So at this point we
15 haven't actually touched a dollar of the new
16 Housing Plan, 150 million.
17 So we will begin this year to spend
18 that down. And, you know, certainly we'll
19 continue to spend as needed. And if we need
20 additional funds, we will come back and ask
21 for that.
22 SENATOR KAVANAGH: And how many
23 projects have been funded through that --
24 Mitchell-Lama projects have been funded
35
1 through that in the past?
2 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We
3 haven't -- I don't have a specific number on
4 that, but we can get you a list of everything
5 we've financed.
6 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Both the number and
7 a list of projects.
8 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yeah,
9 absolutely.
10 SENATOR KAVANAGH: I appreciate it.
11 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure.
12 SENATOR KAVANAGH: And just -- I'll
13 just say I share my colleague Linda
14 Rosenthal's concern about the lack of funding
15 for HOPP and reductions in Neighborhood and
16 Rural Preservation Programs and also
17 something that isn't directly in your
18 bailiwick, but the reduction in funding for
19 legal services for people facing eviction.
20 And again, that I assume will be a subject of
21 negotiations in the next month or so.
22 I want to talk a little bit more in
23 detail about the Pro-Housing program. So you
24 said you've received a total of about
36
1 120 applications and about 20 have been
2 approved so far. Have any been rejected?
3 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: No, no one's
4 been rejected.
5 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Okay. Is there a
6 deadline by which people need to apply if
7 they want to receive --
8 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So we didn't
9 start the program with a deadline because we
10 didn't feel that we were -- you know, we
11 wanted people to take their time and, if they
12 have to go through to pass a resolution, to
13 have the time to do that.
14 I think there's certainly -- everybody
15 loves, you know, a deadline. It does get
16 people to take action. But I think at this
17 point, given that we have a hundred
18 communities that we're working with, I don't
19 think we feel the need to impose a deadline,
20 and we'll just keep working with those
21 communities to get them through the process.
22 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Okay. And is
23 Pro-Housing certification sort of a permanent
24 status? Does it expire? Does it need to be
37
1 renewed?
2 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So one of
3 the key parts of this that, you know, may not
4 be so obvious in sort of the three-step
5 process, is submission of data. And so we
6 are working to get that data up into a
7 statewide database so there's more
8 transparency about zoning and also about
9 building permits across the state.
10 So localities will have to submit us
11 permit data every year to maintain their
12 status, and we will then keep that in this
13 sort of transparent database so that we can
14 see housing growth over the state across
15 time.
16 SENATOR KAVANAGH: So in principle,
17 if a locality failed to provide data -- you
18 know, maybe there could be some change in the
19 political control or administration of a
20 locality -- if they chose not to continue to
21 submit data, at some point they would cease
22 to be considered Pro-Housing for these
23 programs.
24 So this is a program, as you noted,
38
1 that was created by kind of executive action
2 during the summer. We have heard questions
3 about the legal authority to make -- to
4 condition these existing programs on
5 pro-housing certification.
6 Can you just talk about how the
7 programs that are the subject of this were
8 selected and kind of what the legal authority
9 is to do that?
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure.
11 We were looking at discretionary state
12 funding programs, so not things that go by
13 formula or like federal pass-throughs. So we
14 were looking at discretionary programs that
15 municipalities apply for, because this is a
16 municipality-based program, not sort of
17 project-specific, unlike other things that we
18 fund at the state.
19 So we looked at a series of programs,
20 the ones that are sort of outlined in the
21 budget include DRI and NY Forward as well as
22 one at DOT, and selected a series of programs
23 that we thought made sense and were important
24 and we feel that the language in the budget
39
1 give us the legal authority to do the
2 conditioning.
3 SENATOR KAVANAGH: And the language in
4 the budget applies to some of the programs
5 but not others, is that right?
6 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Only the
7 ones that had reappropriation language that
8 actually went into the budget. But we can
9 still do it on the others, they just didn't
10 have reappropriation language.
11 SENATOR KAVANAGH: I see. So the
12 budget seeks authority to condition those for
13 those specific programs but not for -- the --
14 the deciding factor on whether that language
15 included in the budget is whether those
16 programs would otherwise have been mentioned?
17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Were
18 otherwise in the budget for appropriation,
19 yeah.
20 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Okay. I think
21 probably some clarity in that would be
22 useful.
23 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Okay.
24 SENATOR KAVANAGH: The RUSH program --
40
1 and I'm going to resist jokes about these
2 rock-and-roll bands from Canada, but --
3 although -- because I've gotten them out of
4 my system in the last couple of weeks.
5 But just there are three sites chosen
6 that are specifically mentioned in the budget
7 documents, but there's been talk about other
8 sites that might -- that the Governor has
9 talked publicly about: A former prison in
10 Dutchess County, Creedmoor in Queens.
11 There's been talk generally about MTA sites
12 that might be appropriate for conversion to
13 housing.
14 Can you just talk about the choice of
15 the three sites that are mentioned and kind
16 of what the sort of potential future of this
17 program is over the coming year?
18 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes.
19 As you may recall, in July when the
20 Governor did the EO announcements, part and
21 parcel to that was sort of a call to the
22 agencies around public sites and her effort
23 to, you know, make sure she's contributing to
24 the overall housing supply needs in every way
41
1 that she can.
2 So there has been a very robust effort
3 with the agencies to look through sites that
4 can be made available for housing. The sites
5 are not finalized, but there are -- we have
6 been looking, as you mentioned, at MTA sites,
7 at SUNY sites, at state prisons and other
8 state facilities. And then the funding is
9 there to pay for infrastructure that's needed
10 to make those sites developable.
11 The couple of cites that you mentioned
12 that are in the budget language this year are
13 the ones that needed some technical changes
14 to their statutory language in order to be
15 able to facilitate the development of housing
16 there. But that's primarily why they're
17 mentioned, because they needed legislative
18 changes.
19 SENATOR KAVANAGH: And you and I had
20 the opportunity to have this conversation
21 offline, but there's a $250 million
22 allocation for this program. If my
23 understanding is correct, that's not
24 necessarily earmarked for these three
42
1 specific sites, it's for a broader program to
2 reuse state sites.
3 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Correct.
4 It's to get at the overall 15,000 units that
5 we are hoping to produce on state-owned
6 sites.
7 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Okay. And could
8 the administration provide additional -- you
9 know, a list of potential sites that -- I
10 think it would just be helpful in considering
11 an allocation if we actually knew where we
12 might be -- you know, might be considering
13 doing the work.
14 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I'm sure we
15 can get back to you on that. We have a -- as
16 I said, there is not a final list of sites.
17 We are sort of working through -- there's a
18 lot of state-owned sites to be --
19 SENATOR KAVANAGH: It will probably
20 never be final, but yeah.
21 I mean, I think people were surprised
22 that there are SUNY sites but only in
23 Suffolk County, when obviously SUNY has a lot
24 of land in a lot of other places. And the
43
1 same with the MTA.
2 And there's no -- there's not much
3 language in here about what would happen at
4 the sites that are enumerated. There's talk
5 about housing with respect to a DOT site that
6 says "Uses approved by the DOT commissioner."
7 I think the commissioner in that reference is
8 the DOT commissioner, not you.
9 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I believe
10 so.
11 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Is there a point
12 where we flesh out -- I mean, will there be
13 affordability requirements, will there be
14 other -- I mean, it's very vague for a
15 quarter-billion-dollar allocation at this
16 point.
17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes, I guess
18 I would say a couple of things.
19 One is we felt it was important to
20 make sure we had funds so we could know that
21 we could move forward on sites that actually
22 need infrastructure improvements to make them
23 sort of ready to be developed for housing.
24 I would say that we have found, in
44
1 working in partnership with ESD, that sort of
2 conditions are different on all the sites and
3 in all the communities in terms of what gets
4 produced. So I don't think there's sort of a
5 single answer for what kind of housing we
6 would expect in any of these sites. I think
7 it's going to be a conversation, you know, in
8 the local communities about what's -- about
9 what gets built.
10 SENATOR KAVANAGH: But just in the
11 course of budget negotiations, do you think
12 the administration would be willing to have a
13 negotiation about what the sort of parameters
14 of this are going to be before we --
15 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I don't
16 generally sit at those negotiating tables,
17 Senator, but I suspect those questions will
18 come up.
19 SENATOR KAVANAGH: We'll have you
20 appear as a special guest, a star at those
21 tables.
22 The -- oh, just one more question
23 about that. The DOT proposal is quite
24 specific, as there are subparts -- there's
45
1 Subpart C, which is eligible for conveyance
2 and Subparts A and B are for ground lease
3 only. Do you have a sense of how that
4 proposal is structured and why?
5 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I believe --
6 I'm not totally sure which subparts are
7 which, but that the language is there to
8 provide flexibility in how disposition can
9 happen, whether that's a real property
10 transfer versus a subleasing of a portion of
11 a larger site.
12 So I think that language is getting at
13 that, but we can follow up with you on more
14 specifics.
15 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Okay. And just one
16 more question about this.
17 The $250 million, the capital goes
18 through the Empire State Development
19 Corporation rather than the housing agency.
20 Is there -- I mean, understanding that ESD
21 might be helping structure the property
22 transactions and other things, but why would
23 we give another agency $250 million rather
24 than providing it -- you know, you're
46
1 managing billions of dollars in capital to
2 provide housing. Why wouldn't you be the
3 appropriate agency to manage that as well?
4 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So it's not
5 a subsidy for housing, it is funding to pay
6 for roads and water and sewer or to do
7 demolition on buildings or other types of
8 work that isn't generally things that we
9 would pay for through our typical programs.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
11 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Thank you.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
13 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Can I just -- we
14 also -- just to note, we've also been joined
15 by Senator Robert Jackson.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
17 And on the Assembly side, we've been
18 joined by Assemblymembers Levenberg, Lucas
19 and Kelles.
20 And we go to the ranker on Housing --
21 well, the substitute ranker on Housing,
22 Assemblyman Keith Brown, for five minutes.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: I'm going to
24 do my best job impersonating Mike
47
1 Fitzpatrick. So --
2 SENATOR O'MARA: Just quickly, we've
3 been joined on our side by Senator Jack
4 Martins. Thank you.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: Good
6 afternoon, Commissioner. How are you today?
7 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Good, thank
8 you.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: In your
10 opening -- I only have five minutes, so I'm
11 going to ask a lot of quick questions, and if
12 you'd keep your answers as short as possible.
13 So in your opening you mentioned that
14 housing was driving up costs and driving
15 people out of New York State. I would just
16 add a qualifier to that, that I also believe
17 it's high taxes and the high cost of living
18 that go along with that.
19 With regard to the repurposing of real
20 property at SUNY campuses -- namely,
21 Farmingdale and Stony Brook on Long Island --
22 you mentioned you'll be working in
23 conjunction with ESD. And it was kind of
24 vague in terms of what type of housing uses
48
1 would be -- that you anticipate building
2 there, and how many units will be there and
3 who will be eligible to live at those
4 locations.
5 Have there been any discussions with
6 you and ESD about that? And have you had any
7 discussions with the supervisor of either
8 Huntington or the Township of Southampton,
9 where they're located?
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I think the
11 idea with the state sites generally is that
12 there are going to be conversations at the
13 local level about what gets built there. So
14 there is no sort of master plan for the sites
15 already about what's getting built in each
16 place. This is just the beginning of a
17 longer process.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: Along those
19 lines, my understanding is President Nadler
20 of SUNY Farmingdale has asked for housing
21 specifically for staff and for professors.
22 So is that the idea of building the housing
23 there, or is it for some workforce housing or
24 affordable housing of some type?
49
1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I admit I
2 was not involved in any conversations with
3 the chancellor there and what they're looking
4 for, so I wouldn't be able to speak to that.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: Okay. And
6 then I saw somewhere in the budget it
7 indicated eliminating SEQR review from some
8 of these housing proposals. Is it related to
9 the SUNY property itself?
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I'd have to
11 get back to you on that. I'm not sure that
12 there is any SUNY-specific SEQR changes.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: Well, some
14 elimination of SEQR review was in the budget
15 somewhere related to housing. And if you
16 could get back to me and --
17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: -- find out
19 where that is, that would be important for us
20 to know.
21 Just in general, with the last
22 question on this topic, how would any
23 affordable housing or workforce housing --
24 how would they mix with the student
50
1 population that are located on those
2 campuses? Or would they be allowed to mix?
3 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I think
4 there have been some successful examples
5 actually on some other SUNY campuses where
6 they have built senior housing, for example,
7 or other types of housing.
8 I mean, they're not building it sort
9 of in the middle of their campus, right?
10 These campuses tend to be quite large and
11 have parcels that are sort of far away from
12 the sort of the central hub of the campus.
13 So I think this -- I don't think these are
14 intended to be housing units that are sort of
15 built in the middle of the campuses as much
16 as utilizing the land that they have
17 available.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: Okay. And a
19 question that Senator Mattera had asked me to
20 ask.
21 Relative to Southampton, has there
22 been any discussion about possibly building a
23 hospital on the Southampton campus?
24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I'm not
51
1 aware of those discussions.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: Okay.
3 Switching gears to Pro-Housing Community
4 designation, there's no mention anywhere of
5 transit-oriented development housing. Was
6 that on purpose, or is more to come?
7 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We would be
8 delighted for localities to, you know, rezone
9 around their transit hubs for residential
10 density. It's certainly something we've been
11 talking about for the last year.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: Right. And
13 interestingly, when it comes to this, this
14 was by Executive Order of the Governor No. 30
15 in July. But there was supposed to be some
16 language mandating -- but it's not listed in
17 the program -- that would require the
18 certification that would -- it had to be in
19 place in order to receive those funds, such
20 as DRI and Main Street money, et cetera.
21 So it's not in this budget. Do you --
22 is there going to be an amendment that comes
23 out later on?
24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: No, there is
52
1 language in the budget that says these funds
2 may be conditioned upon certification of the
3 Pro-Housing --
4 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: May be
5 conditioned, but not mandatory.
6 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I believe
7 that language allows us to make it a
8 requirement.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: Okay. So --
10 and then what about municipalities that
11 received DR money already? Are they
12 grandfathered in? Is it going to become
13 effective in Round 8?
14 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: It would be
15 for the prospective rounds.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: Okay. And
17 then I took a look at the resolution just in
18 case some of my municipalities want to adopt
19 it, and the language is pretty vague. Right?
20 It's kind of aspirational, not mandatory.
21 So again, my question related to
22 eliminating SEQR. But the one question I had
23 was No. 4 it says "increasing development
24 capacity for residential uses." Could you
53
1 explain what was meant by that? Because
2 that's a little vague.
3 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I think it
4 depends on the locality. That can mean
5 different things. But for some places, that
6 could be investments in something like water
7 and sewer and roads, and in other places it
8 could be schools. I think it's making sure
9 that localities are investing in being able
10 to accommodate additional housing growth in
11 ways beyond just the housing.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: Okay. I
13 have 20 seconds left.
14 So Blue Buffers Buyout Program. We
15 have a couple of peninsulas in my district,
16 Asharoken being one of them. How would
17 homeowners' purchase price be related to fair
18 market value? And then how would it relate
19 to the tax rolls? Would the tax rolls be
20 based on vacant value?
21 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We'd be
22 happy to follow up with you. That's a rather
23 detailed question for five seconds.
24 But we have had a program like this in
54
1 the Governor's Office of Storm Recovery, and
2 so we can talk through how those programs
3 worked in the past and how we're thinking
4 about it going forward.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: Thank you
6 very much.
7 Thank you, Chair.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
9 To the Senate.
10 SENATOR KAVANAGH: {Mic off;
11 inaudible.}
12 SENATOR HELMING: Thank you,
13 Senator Kavanagh.
14 Thank you, Commissioner, for your
15 testimony.
16 I also want to thank you because your
17 office and you personally are always
18 available and ready to answer questions, so I
19 really appreciate that.
20 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Thanks.
21 SENATOR HELMING: The most recent time
22 I think we spoke was back in July surrounding
23 the flooding incident that occurred
24 throughout the state. But in my district in
55
1 Ontario County -- again, I appreciate the
2 responsiveness. Unfortunately, some of the
3 response we got about how can we assist
4 homeowners who are impacted or renters who
5 are impacted by the flooding, their homes
6 were devastated, it took a long time for the
7 Governor to come out with an announcement
8 that there will be funding available.
9 And then, unfortunately, most of my
10 residents didn't qualify. It was the
11 Emergency Homeowner Assistance program. And
12 there was discussion at that time that we
13 need the language, work with the feds to get
14 the criteria changed.
15 Has there been any progress?
16 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I don't
17 think we've had a lot of progress with the
18 federal government changing their process and
19 standards.
20 SENATOR HELMING: Is there anything
21 in -- realizing this is going to be a problem
22 that continues, is there anything in the HCR
23 portion of the budget that would allow us to
24 be more responsive and to help more people?
56
1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes. So we
2 put $40 million in the budget this year in a
3 program called Resilient and Ready -- I might
4 have flipped the words, it might be -- but
5 it's called something like Resilient and
6 Ready.
7 And the idea there is to be able to
8 make both proactive investments and
9 resiliencies -- so getting people to put
10 their mechanicals above-grade or working with
11 putting in basement vents, the types of
12 things that people often need in their homes
13 before a flood happens.
14 So we are really looking forward to
15 that rolling out and being available.
16 SENATOR HELMING: I'm going to move
17 on. I -- so many questions, so little time.
18 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sorry.
19 That's okay, yeah.
20 SENATOR HELMING: But just moving on
21 to rent-stabilized apartments. I've seen so
22 many examples of apartments that are in poor
23 condition, and the reason boils down to
24 because the monthly rent isn't enough --
57
1 doesn't generate enough revenue for the
2 landlord to afford investment in revitalizing
3 these units.
4 I know this personally. I live in
5 what I lovingly refer to as the Great White
6 Money Pit, an older home that the cost in
7 repairs, maintenance is just out of control.
8 And what I've witnessed seems to be
9 supported by HCR's annual report on
10 rent-regulated housing. These reports
11 suggest there's been a dramatic drop-off in
12 total dollar value of major capital
13 improvements applied for and granted to
14 owners of multiple dwellings over the last
15 five years.
16 What are we doing to address that?
17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We have seen
18 certainly a drop in applications of different
19 types in the overall rent-stabilized stock.
20 And certainly I have read, you know,
21 articles similar to how you mentioned about
22 apartments needing large amounts of
23 investment.
24 You know, we have a series of programs
58
1 that we have available at HCR that property
2 owners can access in order to make capital
3 investments into their properties for roofs
4 and boilers and windows and those types of
5 investments. And we always encourage owners
6 of rent-stabilized properties to come take
7 advantage of those.
8 So, you know, we will continue to do
9 that. And obviously if there are specific
10 owners that are in need or buildings in need,
11 we're happy to work with them directly.
12 SENATOR HELMING: Thank you.
13 And I'll just add that, you know, the
14 incredible burden of putting more and more
15 regulations on people -- the fact that we pay
16 some of the highest property taxes in the
17 state -- none of that is happening. And I
18 hope that we're considering that when we look
19 at policies, when we look at programs.
20 Real quick, in the proposed budget the
21 Governor is advocating for taking money away
22 from various housing programs. We heard
23 about HOPP, we heard about Rural
24 Preservation. But programs that have been
59
1 affected in my district also include the land
2 banks. We had extensive conversations about
3 this in the past. Is it true that
4 $10 million is being removed from land banks?
5 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: No. I
6 believe there was a legislative add last year
7 that just didn't get renewed.
8 But we still have over $20 million of
9 land bank money that --
10 SENATOR HELMING: Not enough.
11 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: -- that we
12 will spend this year, so.
13 SENATOR HELMING: We need more.
14 Some of my colleagues touched on this.
15 Part P of ELFA allows the repurposing of
16 properties owned by SUNY and DOT. Are these
17 properties going to be used for residential
18 purposes?
19 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes. The
20 idea is to utilize properties for
21 residential --
22 SENATOR HELMING: Thank you. And will
23 the state have to conform to local zoning
24 codes with those properties?
60
1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I think in
2 the case of SUNY -- we could follow-up with
3 you specifically on those sites. I don't
4 know their zoning well enough to answer that.
5 SENATOR HELMING: I appreciate that.
6 But again, it seems like the Governor
7 tries to strip away local decision-making,
8 and I would hate -- I would not support that
9 on the SUNY campuses or state-owned
10 properties.
11 Really quick -- I only have a couple
12 of seconds, but I need to put in a plug on
13 this Pro-Housing certification. Look, my
14 rural communities are struggling. The
15 counties got stripped of their EFMAP funding,
16 millions and millions of dollars, last year.
17 They don't have money -- unless they raise
18 property taxes -- to put into wastewater
19 treatments, water treatment plants, sewer
20 infrastructure, public drinking water. And
21 then for them to be penalized, municipalities
22 and counties and everyone else, on top of
23 that for the Downtown Revitalization funding
24 and everything else, it's bad.
61
1 If you want more development, more
2 housing, we need to do more to invest in
3 infrastructure.
4 And small communities can't compete
5 with the large communities on the grant
6 programs --
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senator?
8 SENATOR HELMING: That's a response I
9 get all the time. But it doesn't work. They
10 don't have the manpower.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank -- thank
12 you, Senator.
13 We go to Assemblyman Ra, ranker on
14 Ways and Means.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
16 Commissioner, so according to the
17 annual report from your agency on
18 rent-regulated housing there's been a
19 dramatic drop-off in the total value of major
20 capital improvements applied for and granted
21 to owners of multiple dwellings over the last
22 five years. Are you concerned about this
23 lack of investment in the aging affordable
24 housing stock?
62
1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I think we
2 want to -- you know, always want to make sure
3 that owners, where it's needed, are making
4 investments in the housing stock.
5 We haven't seen sort of a rise in
6 service cases or something that you might see
7 as a sort of counter-reflection to lack of
8 MCIs, so we don't have, I think, a cause for
9 concern based on that data.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Do you think that the
11 $15,000 cap over a 15-year period makes sense
12 given the age of these units and the work
13 that may be necessary on them?
14 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I would say
15 that we certainly hear from a lot of owners
16 that that is not enough and that many
17 apartments need more investment than that.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay. And my
19 understanding is just last Thursday New York
20 City released their most recent housing and
21 vacancy survey, and it had the first increase
22 in 35 years in dilapidated housing conditions
23 in rent-regulated housing, which the number
24 had been continuously going down up until
63
1 about three years ago.
2 So what role do you envision for HCR
3 in ensuring the viability of this
4 rent-regulated housing?
5 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Well,
6 certainly we work collaboratively with the
7 City of New York, who enforces the Housing
8 Maintenance Code, which is really sort of the
9 source of sort of the conditions inside the
10 city's rent-stabilized stock.
11 And for our part, we will make sure,
12 as I said, either whether it's in service
13 cases or other cases like that, that they are
14 responded to quickly so that we make sure
15 that the housing stays habitable.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: One of the things
17 that's come up in recent days was regarding
18 New York Community Bank and the ability of
19 rent-stabilized buildings to obtain
20 refinancing.
21 Is that a concern for the department?
22 And, you know, what are we looking at to try
23 to make sure that that financing is
24 available?
64
1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I would say
2 a couple of things.
3 Certainly for the housing that we
4 finance, we are working on sort of 30 -- we
5 lend on 30-year fixed rate mortgages. So for
6 our portfolio, the change in interest rates
7 that impacted a lot of the New York Community
8 Bank and other type of banking loans that you
9 read about doesn't affect our direct
10 portfolio.
11 I think certainly for lots of
12 rent-stabilized buildings who have
13 longer-term debt on them, the sort of rate
14 increase -- recent increases, you know, don't
15 necessarily impact their operating expenses.
16 We obviously don't have a lot of
17 control over owners who take out loans that
18 have shorter terms and therefore are subject
19 to interest rate risk. But we are happy --
20 again, sort of as I mentioned before, we're
21 happy to work with those owners should they
22 want to come to us for financing that is more
23 long-term and fixed-rate.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: And just back in
65
1 terms of MCIs, you know, the current rate of
2 return, is that going to be enough when
3 rent-stabilized buildings have to be able to
4 make the investments that are required of
5 them to comply with the new building emission
6 reductions that are required under Local Law
7 97?
8 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Look,
9 our role in this obviously is to enforce the
10 law and to process MCI applications as they
11 come in.
12 We certainly have heard, and I think
13 the city is very acutely aware of the
14 challenges of Local Law 97 and what
15 incentives or tools may be needed to make
16 sure that buildings can make those
17 investments to meet those goals.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay. And then just
19 lastly, going to a different topic, the
20 Pro-Housing designation. You know, one of
21 the issues that I'm hearing from many local
22 governments -- and I have a local government
23 within my district who has received the
24 designation, and they've built a lot of
66
1 housing in recent years.
2 But there's also a lot of places on
3 Long Island that need sewers and all kinds of
4 other infrastructure. So, you know, trying
5 to get the designation on the front end may
6 be more difficult if they're not able to
7 access the funding that they're going to need
8 to do those types of infrastructure
9 improvements to allow for them to build.
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yeah, I
11 would just say that there is no sort of
12 water/sewer type infrastructure money that is
13 limited or conditioned. The funding that's
14 conditioned is other sort of state
15 discretionary dollars.
16 And we would, you know, certainly be
17 happy to work with those communities in your
18 district that need additional resources.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay. Thank you.
20 And -- well, since I still have
21 30 seconds.
22 (Laughter.)
23 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: So you mentioned
24 the -- right, it says that it may be
67
1 conditioned. So -- but it's basically the
2 intention that those -- all those different
3 grant programs will be conditioned on having
4 that designation going forward?
5 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes, the
6 language gives us the authorization to make
7 the conditional -- to make it a requirement.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: And that's the
9 intention of the agency, is to make a
10 requirement?
11 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
14 We've been joined by Assemblywoman
15 Chandler-Waterman and Assemblyman Al Taylor.
16 Now we go to the Senate.
17 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Next up for
18 questions we'll have Senator Myrie.
19 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you.
20 Good morning --
21 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Good
22 morning.
23 SENATOR MYRIE: -- and thank you for
24 coming. Happy Valentine's Day.
68
1 I'd like to align myself with the
2 Governor's efforts to aggressively but
3 responsibly build our supply. I think that
4 is something that we all should be focused
5 on, and we stand ready to get that across the
6 finish line.
7 But I'm also looking at this report I
8 think just published today by Comptroller
9 DiNapoli entitled "The Housing Insecurity
10 Crisis." And the report notes that evictions
11 were up, post the moratoria ending, about
12 180 percent -- and so many more New Yorkers
13 are being put out -- but it's still
14 27 percent less than pre-pandemic levels
15 because of what we did in the Housing
16 Stability and Tenant Protection Act.
17 So I would urge all of us, as we're
18 having this conversation about housing, to
19 ensure that tenant protections remain at the
20 fore of that conversation because we see the
21 real-life impact on that.
22 I'd also note that it is my
23 understanding there's no capital funding for
24 NYCHA in the Executive Budget. I know we
69
1 were all appalled by the allegations that we
2 saw last week by the U.S. Attorney's office.
3 I would hope that as we go through this
4 budget process that NYCHA and public housing
5 residents both in and outside of New York
6 City will not be forgotten.
7 But I want to get to my main and only
8 question -- and some of my colleagues have
9 spoken about this before -- in regards to
10 repurposing of SUNY property. In my district
11 I have a large SUNY property that you may
12 have heard of, the Downstate Medical Center.
13 And as proposed by the chancellor, there is a
14 so-called transformation plan that includes
15 in that, hypothetically, some type of
16 housing.
17 That would have to go through your
18 agency. And I'm wondering if anyone in the
19 chancellor's office or the Governor's office
20 has discussed housing on SUNY Downstate.
21 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: My
22 understanding is that those plans and
23 conversations are very preliminary, so I'm
24 not aware of any specifics on housing for
70
1 that site other than what's sort of been
2 reported and discussed.
3 SENATOR MYRIE: Okay. Thank you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
5 Dilan.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Thank you,
7 Madam Chair.
8 And to Commissioner Visnauskas, good
9 to see you.
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: You too.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: I just have a
12 brief question around a program that looks to
13 be new in this year's budget, and that's the
14 creation of a new tax abatement for rental
15 construction housing, which I believe is
16 where tax policy should be directed because
17 that's where the demand is. And your
18 housing -- or the city's housing vacancy
19 survey even states that.
20 But I wanted to know -- and I asked
21 this of the Tax commissioner earlier. She
22 said it would be more appropriate for you.
23 Can you give us more details about how this
24 tax abatement program would work? Like
71
1 what's the level of abatement? For how long?
2 How deep are the AMI levels?
3 And I see it's subject to some
4 negotiations in the MOU. Could you just
5 explain that as best you can?
6 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure.
7 So, you know, as you will recall, we
8 have proposed a version of this tax exemption
9 last year that was not successful. And so
10 this year we came back and have a sort of a
11 slightly different structure where there are
12 certain things in the proposal that are kind
13 of clear, and then we left a lot of sort of
14 variables sort of more to be figured out
15 either through the budget process or in
16 consultation with the city.
17 So as you mentioned, so for 485-x,
18 which is where we are in the numbering this
19 year, the proposal would be for new
20 construction of rental housing in New York
21 City, and then it sets sort of a specified --
22 a to-be-specified percentage in AMI that we
23 imagine would work consultively with the City
24 of New York to finalize what that is. It is
72
1 their tax incentive program that they
2 implement. We very much want their sort of
3 input on this as we go through the process.
4 I would say that the city designed
5 their mandatory inclusionary program, which
6 creates permanently affordable housing, to
7 work in conjunction with the tax exemption.
8 So that's sort of another reason why we left
9 it a little more open this year for sort of
10 consultation with them and to be worked out
11 through the process.
12 The thing that is in there that is
13 consistent with from years past is that the
14 units would be permanently affordable.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Okay. This
16 doesn't say the level of abatement that
17 potential developers would see at this point?
18 That's subject to negotiation?
19 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So those I
20 think are left to be worked out as part of
21 this process or in consultation with the
22 city.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: So in theory we
24 could pass this and not know the level of the
73
1 abatement, not know the details, and it would
2 be subject to the city even though we voted
3 on it, we passed it?
4 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I mean, I
5 think it can get worked out in the budget
6 process or, if not, it would defer to the
7 City of New York to figure out what they
8 believe works with their mandatory
9 inclusionary program and their other goals
10 for their housing program.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Okay. Thank you.
12 Thank you, Madam Chair.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
14 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Next up,
15 Senator Hoylman.
16 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Good morning.
17 Nice to see you.
18 Thank you for your succinct answers.
19 It really has moved the conversation along.
20 Are we keeping track, Commissioner, of
21 vacant apartments?
22 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So our
23 system requires that landlords register the
24 status of their apartments on April 1st of
74
1 every year. And so we know the status of the
2 rent -- I assume you mean the rent-stabilized
3 stock. We know the status of the apartments
4 in the rent-stabilized stock -- we know the
5 status as of April 1st each year.
6 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Is there a
7 trend line that you can share with us in
8 terms of vacancies?
9 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We -- as I
10 had mentioned before, there was a bit of a
11 spike in post-pandemic in 2021, but we are
12 today back to certain normalized levels of
13 vacancy, which is about sub 40,000 units as
14 of that April 1 deadline, which is sort of a
15 historical norm.
16 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: And can we
17 hold landlords to account for those vacancies
18 in any way that you know?
19 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Well,
20 generally we see that in a -- like a
21 subsequent registration year the units that
22 are vacant are different units. So it isn't
23 units that are being vacant -- or that are
24 being held vacant for multiple years, they
75
1 are just vacant at that moment in their cycle
2 and oftentimes are then rented when it comes
3 to the next cycle.
4 So I'm not sure if that answers your
5 accounting ability.
6 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Yeah.
7 And how about NYCHA? Are you
8 following vacancies in NYCHA developments?
9 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: No, I don't
10 have any awareness of vacancies in NYCHA.
11 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: And why is
12 that?
13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We don't
14 oversee NYCHA.
15 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: So that
16 information is not shared with the state
17 housing authority at all.
18 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: No. I mean
19 they're regulated by the federal government,
20 right, and they report in to the city
21 administration. So we don't receive data on
22 their apartments as a whole.
23 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Speaking of
24 the city, how closely are you working with
76
1 the city administration on the mayor's City
2 of Yes proposal?
3 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We have a
4 very collaborative relationship with HPD and
5 HTC on our housing pipelines.
6 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Is there
7 anything in his legislation agenda that you
8 think is a must-do on the part of the
9 Legislature?
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I mean, I
11 think this -- we and the city have sort of
12 consistently, I think, in our conversation
13 about supply talked about the need for a tax
14 incentive for new construction of rental
15 housing, we've talked about a tax incentive
16 for commercial housing. We would very much
17 like to see some authorization for
18 legalization of basement apartments in
19 New York City as well as a removal from the
20 state law of the residential density cap so
21 that the city can make decisions themselves
22 about where to have residential density.
23 So I think we are aligned on all of
24 those -- you know, our sort of supply package
77
1 this year as it relates to New York City.
2 (Interruption by protestors.)
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Please sit
4 down.
5 (Protestors continue.)
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: You are out of
7 order. Please -- please sit down so we can
8 continue our hearing.
9 (Protestors continue.)
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I would --
11 please -- please respect the hearing. We
12 would just --
13 (Protest continues.)
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Plea -- plea --
15 I would just like to clarify for the --
16 (Protest continues.)
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We're going to
18 take a --
19 (Protest continues.)
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Every person --
21 not to get a back-and-forth, but every
22 individual or organization that requests --
23 every individual or organization that
24 requested to testify at this hearing and
78
1 submitted their testimony according to the
2 rules posted on the Assembly and Senate's
3 websites, are listed to testify today.
4 (Overtalk.)
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: If people
6 failed -- if people failed to submit their
7 testimony, they can submit in writing by the
8 end of today and it will be posted on the
9 Assembly/Senate's websites.
10 (Protest continues.)
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Can we give
12 Senator -- can we add another minute to the
13 time clock.
14 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Thank you.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
16 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Thank you very
17 much.
18 In the Pro-Housing Community program,
19 is there anything to incentivize localities
20 to streamline their approvals process?
21 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Look, in the
22 resolution -- so you can get certified one of
23 two ways, right? One is you're either
24 growing, which we would like to think is a
79
1 reflection that you have a good system.
2 Or the other is you've passed a
3 resolution and the resolution has a series of
4 affirmative statements, and one is about
5 reducing barriers to housing or reducing
6 regulations.
7 So we are hoping that as communities
8 want to apply and certify, that they will be
9 doing those things.
10 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Are you
11 assisting them with ideas on how to do that?
12 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We are --
13 you know, we generally make ourselves
14 available. We've been doing a lot of
15 webinars and a lot of outreach. And I myself
16 have gone out to a lot of meetings and talked
17 to people.
18 So we will make ourselves as available
19 as we can be to provide guidance on whatever
20 it is they need from us.
21 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: And what's
22 your enforcement mechanism to ensure that the
23 locality is in fact doing what they say
24 they're doing?
80
1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Well, as you
2 know, we're in a carrot, not stick,
3 structure.
4 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Yes. So once
5 you give them the carrots, what do you do?
6 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: It is just a
7 carrot structure so that -- the idea is that
8 they get certified. They are then eligible
9 to apply --
10 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Can you claw
11 back any of the grants or rewards if in fact
12 they renege?
13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Well, there
14 is no -- once you get certified, you have to
15 submit us your data on an ongoing basis to
16 remain certified. So if you are awarded,
17 then you would receive that award, we
18 wouldn't take it back. But going forward,
19 you would then not be eligible for future
20 rounds of grants.
21 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: So it's an
22 annual --
23 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: --
24 certification.
81
1 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Thank you.
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
3 We go to Assemblyman Epstein.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you,
5 Commissioner, for being here. It's good
6 seeing you.
7 I just want to lift up my colleagues
8 about HOPP and HA -- MMP, trying to get those
9 back in the budget this year. Obviously
10 those are critical for our communities. HAVP
11 as well, trying to get that in the budget as
12 well.
13 I appreciate what you're saying around
14 kind of legalization of basements and giving
15 the city more authority.
16 I want to talk about expiring 421-a
17 units. So we've seen a lot of units come
18 offline, pre-2013 units that aren't
19 permanently affordable. What is HCR doing
20 about preventing losing all those affordable
21 housing units that are 421-a from leaving the
22 system and losing thousands -- by 2026 it
23 looks like we're going to potentially lose
24 tens of thousands of affordable units in the
82
1 city.
2 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So our sort
3 of greatest tool is that we have preservation
4 financing programs available, so that when
5 people want to take advantage of our low-cost
6 funding that we have, that they use that to
7 make renovations and then are back in our
8 regulatory structure.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Yeah, so the
10 vast majority of developers have chosen not
11 to take you up on those tools. So what other
12 options -- I mean, we're worried, obviously,
13 about thousands in my district and thousands
14 across the city. Is there anything else we
15 can do to try to not lose these units?
16 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I mean,
17 look, I think the best tool we have is for
18 buildings that were developed through the
19 inclusionary program, they are permanent.
20 And for projects that we'll get ideally
21 financed by a new tax exemption, they will
22 also be permanently affordable and we won't
23 be facing that issue.
24 It is a common one certainly in city
83
1 and state financing where we were also
2 traditionally financing things for 30 years
3 and at the end of that dealing with an
4 expiring-use issue. So we try to proactively
5 work with as many buildings as we can, but we
6 don't have a lot of tools besides that.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: So just on the
8 permanent affordability, what percentage of
9 the new units that you're doing are
10 permanently affordable housing when there is
11 affordable housing units in the project?
12 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I'd have to
13 get back to you on that because we have a
14 fair amount of overlap in New York City and
15 not, so I don't know the percent.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: So I know one of
17 my colleagues mentioned public housing. Not
18 just NYCHA, but capital money for authorities
19 outside New York City, it would be great to
20 see something there to ensure we have
21 resources for public housing authorities in
22 and outside.
23 But also there's the operating rent.
24 We provided some rent assistance last year to
84
1 avoid a lot of evictions. Didn't see
2 anything on rent arrears either. I'm
3 wondering what the logic is to try to avoid
4 some of those evictions, especially of these
5 really low-income tenants.
6 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So we have a
7 series of tools that we work with with our
8 building owners to, where they're having
9 tenants who are not paying rent and they are
10 having cash-flow issues, we are sort of using
11 every tool we can. We've been actively
12 releasing Section 8 and project-based Section
13 8s or projects to help stabilize them. We
14 are proposing this insurance discrimination
15 bill to cut down on costs on the other side
16 and --
17 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: We've heard both
18 from public housing authorities as well as
19 our nonprofit housing providers that they
20 just need the rent payment. So is there a
21 way to potentially think about that for this
22 year as well, for additional rent payments
23 for --
24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I think we
85
1 would continue to work with you all on that.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Great.
3 And just finally, I'm wondering if
4 there's a path forward just on the 12-FAR
5 issue. I didn't see anything about
6 permanently affordable on the 12-FAR issue.
7 Is there any plan for permanent
8 affordability?
9 And I guess you may not have time to
10 answer, but --
11 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yeah, look,
12 I think the idea there is to really give the
13 city the tools to rezone and they can include
14 permanent affordability where that can be --
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We need to go
16 to the Senate now. Thank you.
17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Thanks.
18 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Senator Brisport.
19 SENATOR BRISPORT: Thank you.
20 And thank you, Commissioner, for your
21 testimony.
22 A few quick questions about
23 rent-stabilized units. When a tenant files
24 an overcharge complaint with HCR, typically
86
1 how long does the process take for HCR to
2 make a decision?
3 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I don't know
4 that I have an average time for you. The
5 cases can be very different. So some cases
6 get resolved very quickly and some cases take
7 a very long time. And, you know, it does not
8 make us happy that it takes a long time to
9 resolve those cases.
10 But I'd be happy to get back to you on
11 specifics if there's certain cases you're
12 concerned about.
13 SENATOR BRISPORT: Thank you.
14 And my understanding is that the
15 lookback went from four years to six years
16 due to that change. Have there been any
17 changes in the amounts of complaints that
18 have been filed with HCR?
19 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I don't
20 think that we have seen an uptick there. It
21 certainly is also one of the things that
22 makes the case processing take a little
23 longer, because we have to go back even
24 longer on those.
87
1 But I could get back to you on that.
2 SENATOR BRISPORT: Okay.
3 And is HCR tracking rent-overcharge
4 complaints being filed against the same LLCs?
5 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I don't
6 believe that we do that because we handle all
7 of our cases individually, not sort of in a
8 batched or by owner way.
9 SENATOR BRISPORT: Okay, thank you.
10 And I have some questions as well
11 about the 500 million in capital funds for
12 state-owned property.
13 Have sites been selected already, or
14 is that published?
15 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: No. So
16 there's a series of sites that we are working
17 on, when the Governor called all the agencies
18 to come forward with sites, but the list has
19 not been finalized.
20 But we are working through a lot of
21 sites to see which ones can get developed the
22 quickest, which can provide the most housing,
23 which need the least amount of capital to
24 become sort of ready for housing -- those
88
1 types of questions.
2 SENATOR BRISPORT: Okay. I'll bring
3 up 1024 Fulton Street in Clinton Hill,
4 Brooklyn, in a state-owned site. It's slated
5 for demolition for the health and safety of
6 the pedestrians there through the OGS budget.
7 But it is state-owned property in a rapidly
8 gentrifying community with a deep need for
9 affordable housing.
10 Based on what you're hearing, would a
11 site like that qualify for the capital funds?
12 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes, we
13 would love to see that site become affordable
14 housing and have been looking -- watching it
15 for a little while. So we would look forward
16 to doing that there.
17 SENATOR BRISPORT: Thank you so much.
18 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yup.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
20 Gallahan.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN GALLAHAN: Thank you,
22 Madam Chair.
23 Thank you, Commissioner, for your
24 testimony today on this lovely Valentine's
89
1 Day.
2 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I like your
3 red shirt.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN GALLAHAN: Last July the
5 Governor issued an executive order, No. 30,
6 which you're familiar with I'm sure, which
7 created the Pro-Housing Community program.
8 And under this, several capital fund programs
9 would give preference to municipalities that
10 applied for such programs if they'd been
11 certified by the Division of Homes and
12 Community Renewal as a pro-housing community.
13 My question is, have municipalities
14 raised any concerns or questions about the
15 certification process or requirements?
16 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I would
17 say -- you know, as I mentioned before, we
18 have 20 communities that have been certified
19 so far, and we have about another hundred
20 that we're working with. And I think to the
21 extent they've raised questions, they've been
22 in the context of a productive conversation
23 we're having with them, either in a sort of
24 webinar that we're running or an individual
90
1 phone call. So we are trying to be able to
2 help communities work through the process.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN GALLAHAN: Were there any
4 really specific concerns that they had that
5 you can share with us?
6 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I don't know
7 that we -- I would say the concerns were more
8 questions about, you know, which forms, where
9 to apply, where to put certain sets of data.
10 And so we just help clarify things for
11 people. I don't think we've gotten any
12 concerns particularly.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN GALLAHAN: Okay. And did
14 the Empire State Development, the Department
15 of State or the Department of Transportation
16 ask for their programs to become wrapped up
17 in this certification at all?
18 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I believe
19 the decision was made by the Governor's
20 office, in consultation with the agencies.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN GALLAHAN: Thank you.
22 And last week the Governor hosted a
23 roundtable announcing those first 20, which
24 you mentioned earlier, they've been
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1 certified. She referred to the state as
2 being a partner and local governments don't
3 want sticks, they want carrots to be
4 encouraging the housing growth.
5 My question is, how many of the
6 933 towns, 62 cities, and 533 villages in
7 New York do you anticipate applying to become
8 certified? And how many do you anticipate
9 would become certified?
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: That's a
11 great question which we don't know the answer
12 to. But we are basically ready, willing and
13 able to work with all the communities that
14 want to come forward who want to apply for
15 the discretionary funds that are available
16 and become certified as a part of that.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN GALLAHAN: Thank you.
18 And have any of the larger
19 communities -- Rochester, Buffalo,
20 Hempstead -- applied yet?
21 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes. We are
22 working with several of those and some other
23 additional larger cities too.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN GALLAHAN: The programs
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1 which are proposed to be subject to the
2 pro-housing certification are the Downtown
3 Revitalization Initiative, NY Forward,
4 New York Main Street, Regional Council
5 Capital Fund, the Market New York capital
6 grants, Long Island Investment Fund,
7 Mid-Hudson -- it goes on and on -- Modern
8 Transportation.
9 When will these discretionary programs
10 be considered -- be considering the
11 Pro-Housing certification when reviewing the
12 application?
13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So they will
14 be for the round that comes out this year,
15 which many of those will start sort of --
16 after budget season, those will start to --
17 the applications will start to roll out.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN GALLAHAN: Okay. And is
19 the current Round 7 of the Downtown
20 Revitalization Initiative and Round 2 of the
21 NY Forward considering certification for
22 their -- they're being considered for their
23 awards?
24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I can't
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1 remember which round we're on, but it would
2 be for whatever round is going to be released
3 this year.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN GALLAHAN: Okay. Thank
5 you very much.
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: To the Senate.
7 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Senator Salazar.
8 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you.
9 Good to see you, Commissioner.
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Hi.
11 SENATOR SALAZAR: So I have a question
12 about rent overcharge claims being processed.
13 Is the large backlog of rent
14 overcharge claims or complaints that still
15 need to be processed by HCR due to
16 insufficient capacity at the agency or other
17 causes that we should know about?
18 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I would say
19 a couple of things. We -- I have said here
20 many times in the past it is hard to hire.
21 And so we had had -- we'd had sort of a
22 limited-head-count sort of pre-pandemic. We
23 got much-needed relief from the Legislature,
24 we got a big head-count jump right before we
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1 went into COVID when we had a hiring freeze
2 and -- so it's been very challenging to hire.
3 We have been aggressively hiring for
4 the last two years as a state agency. And as
5 a part of our agency that has specifically
6 sort of a lot of retirements all the time,
7 too, it often feels like we are hiring to
8 keep pace with our retirements even though
9 we're trying to hire to actually add
10 additional heads.
11 So we currently have probably for --
12 somewhere on the order of maybe 30 additional
13 people that we're hiring for still to get our
14 capacity up.
15 So to answer your question, part of
16 the backlog is our need to keep expanding our
17 hiring, and it's challenging in the civil
18 service, and in general it's hard to hire.
19 SENATOR SALAZAR: What can we in the
20 Legislature -- particularly, of course,
21 through the budget process -- do to help
22 address that backlog?
23 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Short of
24 coming to work at --
95
1 SENATOR SALAZAR: Yes.
2 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: It's a great
3 question. We are trying to -- have been very
4 focused on this for the better part of the
5 last nine months and sort of coming out of
6 COVID and other legislative changes to make
7 that our -- getting the hiring completed as
8 quickly as we can.
9 A key part, we've been working with
10 Department of Civil Service to get changes
11 there that we need to how the jobs are
12 classified and the requirements that are
13 needed for employees, sort of adjusting that
14 to be more appropriate so that we get more
15 applicants.
16 So I'm not sure there's anything the
17 Legislature can do right now other than, you
18 know, keep us on our toes that we're doing
19 what we say we're going to do.
20 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you.
21 And while -- as you know, while
22 waiting for a rent overcharge complaint to be
23 processed, a rent-stabilized tenant can often
24 be forced to move out before the claim is
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1 even determined.
2 What recourse is there for tenants in
3 those situations if ultimately it is
4 determined that they had a -- their claim was
5 legitimate?
6 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We try to
7 do -- and we are also very appreciative when
8 members of the Legislature sort of signal for
9 us ways that we can jump in and assist.
10 But I would say, you know, we try to
11 make sure that we are in contact with tenants
12 as much as we can so that they understand
13 what their rights are while they're there or
14 if they leave. We'd be happy to sort of
15 follow up with you on that if you think
16 there's other ways and other things we can be
17 doing.
18 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman
20 Lucas.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LUCAS: Thank you,
22 Chair.
23 Good afternoon to everyone.
24 How are you doing, Commissioner?
97
1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Hi.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LUCAS: I just wanted to
3 ask two quick questions.
4 With the recent settlement by
5 Mayor Adams on the community board
6 preference, what is it that you think that
7 the state and your agency can do to protect
8 fair housing while protecting community
9 members who negotiate each project in their
10 communities?
11 Can you hear me? Okay, one-two,
12 one-two. Can we stop my time? (Pause.)
13 How's this?
14 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Much better.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LUCAS: Okay. Can I
16 have 7 seconds back, please?
17 (Laughter.)
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LUCAS: With the recent
19 settlement by Mayor Adams on the community
20 board preference, what is it that you think
21 that the state and your agency can do to
22 protect the -- fair housing while protecting
23 the community members who negotiate each
24 project in their communities?
98
1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I would say,
2 you know, we are very committed to fair
3 housing at the state. We last year published
4 our Fair Housing Matters report that's up on
5 our website and has a series of
6 recommendations.
7 And we are working ourselves, we work
8 with the Attorney General's office, we work
9 with legal agencies across the state to make
10 sure that fair housing is followed. We have
11 a lot of wonderful changes to our processes
12 to make sure that tenants have better access
13 and rights when it comes to lotteries and
14 things like that.
15 I think with respect to the litigation
16 of the city-run community board preference,
17 you know, we will follow the city's lead and
18 coordinate for the case on the community
19 board preference.
20 But we, you know, have other efforts
21 in our marketing that make sure that we are
22 reaching people in order so that they have
23 access to our apartments. So we take fair
24 housing very seriously.
99
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LUCAS: Yeah, it sounds
2 likes we're going to have a longer
3 discussion.
4 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LUCAS: Also I know that
6 you and your team are committed to building
7 capacity with MWBEs that work with your
8 agency with the renewal of 15-A.
9 What is it that your agency will be
10 doing to advance this program while looking
11 to build a future -- more capacity in the
12 future?
13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So we've
14 made a lot of changes to our programs to
15 create better access for MWBEs to our
16 programs.
17 And we will continue, you know, to do
18 that to make sure that we can increase the
19 number of projects that are going to MWBEs
20 both in downstate and really across the
21 state.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LUCAS: Okay. And just
23 for the record, I've been working with your
24 office around -- as it relates to the
100
1 9 percent tax credit and diversity in the
2 program. And I'd like to just make sure on
3 record that we can continue that discussion
4 about expanding diversity for that particular
5 program.
6 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Absolutely.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LUCAS: Thank you.
8 SENATOR KAVANAGH: So we're going to
9 go to Senator George Borrello.
10 SENATOR BORRELLO: Thank you,
11 Mr. Chairman.
12 Commissioner, thank you for being
13 here.
14 Let me start off by saying that I
15 really appreciate the engagement with your
16 agency in my district. You guys really are
17 great communicators. We appreciate that.
18 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Thanks.
19 SENATOR BORRELLO: But I want to talk
20 a little bit about right now there's a report
21 recently in Politico that since the end of
22 the pandemic, New York has paid out
23 $3 billion in rent assistance to tenants, and
24 yet there are still hundreds of thousands of
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1 tenants that are in arrears.
2 Let's face it, the state did a pretty
3 poor job of verifying whether these folks
4 actually had a real hardship. I heard from
5 property owners across my district that, you
6 know, there was no hardship experienced by
7 their tenants, they just stopped paying their
8 rent.
9 You know, we have a huge hole there.
10 What does the Governor think we should do to
11 resolve this?
12 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Look, I
13 think what I can say is that I certainly hear
14 that from a lot of our owners, that it's a
15 very frustrating environment when tenants who
16 can pay their rent don't pay their rent.
17 And obviously there's a lot of tenants
18 who have hardship and can't pay their rent,
19 and certainly I think our building owners --
20 and we see it -- a little bit of our
21 portfolio feels stress, obviously economic
22 stress from both rising costs and decreased
23 revenues.
24 For our part, you know, we work really
102
1 closely with our owners and we're trying to
2 provide them relief whenever we can, to make
3 sure that they can stay economically viable.
4 And as I sort of said before, I think we
5 would make ourselves available to any sort of
6 building owner that needed relief that we can
7 provide in the forms of subsidy financing for
8 capital repairs or other types of work to
9 help them out.
10 SENATOR BORRELLO: Thanks. Let me
11 move on to another question.
12 So workforce housing -- great concept.
13 The idea that being able to ensure that
14 people that are working on the low end of the
15 income scale are actually able to have
16 affordable housing near where they work.
17 The problem is I kind of think of it
18 as a myth in our area. Every time we have a
19 workforce housing project in my area, over
20 the course of two or three years, the four
21 years that it takes, inflation hits and the
22 next thing you know, the application process
23 that they applied for, it goes from workforce
24 housing to affordable housing. And now we're
103
1 not really accomplishing the goal of ensuring
2 that people that want to work and live in the
3 areas that they work in -- that might be
4 otherwise unaffordable -- are actually
5 getting that housing.
6 What's being done about that? Can't
7 we put some type of inflation adjuster into
8 these applications?
9 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure. Are
10 you saying that something that is sort of
11 middle-income becomes low-income? Or
12 something that's --
13 SENATOR BORRELLO: Yes. Yes. Yeah,
14 exactly. Something essentially that -- you
15 know, we just had one recently where a
16 project in my district, they put it in a
17 certain level and then over the course of
18 four years, inflation was huge. Now all of a
19 sudden that application -- that limit, income
20 limit became -- went from being workforce to
21 low-income housing --
22 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I see.
23 SENATOR BORRELLO: -- which defeats
24 the purpose.
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1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Look, we
2 have a couple of programs that allow for
3 averaging, which is one tool that we use to
4 allow for a variety of incomes to be -- and
5 rents to be met on an average.
6 We also have a series of middle-income
7 programs that specifically target those
8 middle-income ranges so they're not
9 low-income.
10 So I guess I'd be happy to sort of
11 talk with you more specifically about whether
12 there's certain AMIs that you're not to
13 target because of our financing or other ways
14 that we could make sure that happens.
15 SENATOR BORRELLO: Well, we can follow
16 up on that. But I appreciate that. Thank
17 you.
18 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yeah, okay.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
20 Assemblymember Tapia.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN TAPIA: (Mic off;
22 inaudible.) I represent part of the Bronx.
23 And as we know, I mean one of the poorest
24 boroughs in the whole State of New York. And
105
1 one of the issues that I see every single day
2 in my community is how and what steps are you
3 taking in regards to ensure that landlords
4 and property owners do not discriminate based
5 on the source of income? And specifically
6 when we're talking about voucher-holders.
7 And that happens many times that those
8 people that are in shelters with families and
9 that are waiting and looking like crazy for
10 an apartment are negated the opportunity in
11 discriminating by the landlords. And they --
12 many times they lose those vouchers and they
13 have to start the program all over again, and
14 they continue in those shelters with their
15 families when they deserve and they've been
16 approved.
17 And I would love to know what are we
18 doing right now to prevent that and to make
19 sure that that's not continue happening the
20 way that it's happening.
21 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: It's a great
22 question and certainly a topic that's of
23 great concern to us.
24 Look, we're very thankful to the
106
1 Legislature for passing the source of income
2 discrimination law that we have, and it's on
3 the books as the law in New York State that
4 you cannot do that. But nonetheless, we
5 certainly are aware that it still happens.
6 We are -- this year in the budget
7 you'll see, as a follow-up to last year,
8 there is $2 million for fair housing testing.
9 And we work with legal organizations across
10 the state who are doing testing to root out
11 where there is sort of consistent patterns of
12 source-of-income discrimination. So that is
13 one of our best tools.
14 We're also working with the Division
15 of Human Rights to make sure that they are
16 staffed up to make sure that they can address
17 cases of source-of-income discrimination as
18 well there.
19 So happy to keep working with you if
20 there's other ways you think we can be
21 working to combat that.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN TAPIA: I think so.
23 I also have this thing -- because, for
24 example, my district is -- the median income
107
1 is 39,000 and per capita is 18,000. And I
2 just want to weigh in on what my colleagues
3 from the Senate said. And now I have new
4 buildings that started before I was elected.
5 And they are -- the median income that
6 they're offering for those buildings in that
7 neighborhood, in those neighborhoods that are
8 in my district is just starting at $107,000
9 for the lottery. And that is for a studio.
10 That's the minimum that you have to work --
11 to earn.
12 And I wonder -- I mean, that's --
13 that's just -- that is fostering -- that is
14 fostering gentrification. Because, I mean,
15 who -- my -- my district cannot live there.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
17 Before we go to the Senate, just want
18 to acknowledge we were joined a while ago by
19 Assemblyman Meeks, who snuck in behind me.
20 Next we go to Senator Cleare.
21 SENATOR CLEARE: Thank you.
22 Good to see you, Commissioner.
23 And I'm going to just follow right up
24 with what my colleague was just asking about.
108
1 Earlier you mentioned 20 percent of
2 the housing is being planned for
3 affordable -- for affordable living. And
4 that -- this is a statement but also a
5 question. That is not nearly enough. Over
6 50 percent of my district, even with the
7 aggressive gentrification that's already
8 taking place, over 50 percent of my district
9 is paying more than 30 percent of their
10 income in rent.
11 And this particularly affects the
12 Black community in New York, where the
13 average median income is only $43,000 in
14 New York City and is only $53,000 in the
15 state.
16 What is HCR, what is the state
17 planning to do? What is the best approach?
18 It's not about, in my view, just building
19 more housing. It has to be more of a certain
20 kind of housing. Because if we continue to
21 build housing that people can't afford, all
22 we're doing is displacing and continuing the
23 exodus of people and particularly the Black
24 community that has left in the hundreds of
109
1 thousands that have been forced to leave
2 New York State.
3 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So I would
4 say one of the things we see and have seen in
5 the last, you know, five and more years is a
6 real increase in rents and a real extreme
7 increase in house prices. And that is making
8 New York even more unaffordable.
9 And we know, and the data proves this,
10 that when there is more supply, that the
11 prices come down. So we are very focused on
12 supply this year because every study has
13 shown that the more housing that can get
14 built, the more either price increase will
15 slow or prices will -- that price inflation
16 will slow down. And we have to have that,
17 because there is not enough apartments, the
18 apartments are there --
19 SENATOR CLEARE: I don't disagree that
20 we need apartments. We need more housing.
21 But we need more of a certain type of
22 housing. Never has anyone walked into my
23 office and said, Senator Cleare, you know
24 what you've got to do, you've got to get us
110
1 some more luxury housing.
2 (Laughter.)
3 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So I would
4 say, for our part, we spend every dollar that
5 we get from the federal government on
6 affordable housing. We cannot build any more
7 housing than we finance at HCR, and the city
8 is somewhat in the same position, because we
9 get these two resources from the federal
10 government in the form of tax credits --
11 that's the primary source that we use for new
12 construction, and we are spending every
13 dollar of it we get every year, and we can't
14 do any more, so --
15 SENATOR CLEARE: They only give me a
16 little bit of time.
17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure.
18 SENATOR CLEARE: So I have a bill --
19 I'd like to talk to your office about it,
20 because I think the state should be
21 providing -- developing and providing
22 housing. We cannot continue to ask
23 developers to create affordable housing.
24 That's not what they do. They develop for
111
1 profit.
2 And we have to find a way for us to --
3 the best housing is Mitchell-Lama, that we
4 created. We need to go back to that model.
5 And I'll just ask these really
6 quickly. What portion of the -- any of this
7 housing is being dedicated to seniors, the
8 fastest-growing population?
9 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So we
10 finance a large amount of senior housing in
11 our portfolio. I don't have the exact number
12 off the top of my head, but I can get that to
13 you.
14 But we have a very strong supportive
15 housing and senior housing portion of the
16 work that we do.
17 SENATOR CLEARE: And if you could send
18 this to me, I'd like more information on the
19 first-time homeowners program, if we can get
20 an update on how many people have been
21 helped --
22 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure.
23 SENATOR CLEARE: -- and are there
24 plans to expand it.
112
1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yeah,
2 absolutely.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 We go to Assemblywoman Levenberg.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEVENBERG: So thank you
6 very much, Commissioner and Madam Chair.
7 In your testimony you refer to the
8 proposed $500 million in capital funds
9 dedicated to developing up to 15,000 housing
10 units on state-owned property. Senator
11 Kavanagh had asked about state-owned sites
12 which might be considered for development.
13 If a municipality has a site which
14 they'd like considered, can you explain what
15 the process and criteria for HCR's evaluation
16 of suitability and availability would be?
17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure.
18 I mean, we'd be happy to work with any
19 municipality that has a site that they're
20 looking -- from our parochial perspective for
21 affordable housing, we'd be happy to work
22 with them.
23 I think for the larger state fund, it
24 is targeted towards state-owned sites, but I
113
1 don't know that we have been approached by
2 any municipality that wanted to talk about
3 their municipally owned sites. Though I
4 think we'd be open to having that discussion.
5 We are really trying to get more housing
6 built everywhere, so ...
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEVENBERG: Just a quick
8 advertisement, which is that hearing from
9 everybody about infrastructure that is making
10 communities suitable for building more
11 housing, I think having both more money for
12 AIM, Aid to Municipalities, as well as more
13 money -- as well as consideration of a
14 New York State Bank would go a long way to
15 helping finance all of the needs that we
16 have.
17 Also the Comptroller's just released
18 report recommended that the state provide
19 planning and logistical support to localities
20 for review of zoning and other actions to
21 facilitate development.
22 Feedback that we've received from
23 Westchester Municipal Officials Association
24 and others, and "we" being actually
114
1 Assemblyman Burdick and I, is that the lack
2 of such support is a major hurdle. And I
3 recognize that your department has considered
4 this before. But could you please explain
5 how such support might be provided other than
6 these hard-to-secure planning grants?
7 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So we have
8 a -- in the budget there are some additional
9 FTEs for us specifically for the Pro-Housing
10 Communities. So we would anticipate that
11 some of those additional staff could be
12 liaisons for municipalities who need
13 assistance.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEVENBERG: So to help
15 them in the actual application process as
16 well as --
17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yeah, I
18 would think -- I would say right now we are
19 trying to help people in the application
20 process actively. Currently I think if
21 people need beyond that additional work we're
22 happy to sort of take that in and figure out
23 how we can help them.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEVENBERG: Okay, great.
115
1 All right.
2 And then finally, you know, just if
3 there's anything in particular that expands
4 funding for "missing middle" housing, which
5 is something that we talk a lot about again
6 in the suburbs. I don't know if you have any
7 thoughts about that. And I know that
8 Assemblyman Burdick's going to talk a little
9 bit about some of our legislative ideas also.
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yeah, we
11 want to continue to make sure that developers
12 in places like your district are aware that
13 we actually have a lot of resources for
14 middle-income housing. We have a tax credit
15 that supports it. We have a funding capital
16 program that supports it and not everyone is
17 sort of aware that that exists and they go
18 right to some of the other funding programs.
19 So we are happy to continue working
20 with you to make sure they're aware we have
21 that and they can make themselves -- you
22 know, use it for housing in your district.
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEVENBERG: Thank you
24 very much.
116
1 SENATOR KAVANAGH: So next we have
2 Senator Jackson.
3 SENATOR JACKSON: Good afternoon,
4 Commissioner, and to your staff. Thank you
5 for coming and addressing the issues and
6 concerns.
7 I have one primary big concern. I
8 will mention it to you now, and I want to
9 follow it with your staff. But the survival
10 of the Amalgamated Housing Cooperative in the
11 Bronx. I'm sure you know about that.
12 They're -- in my opinion are on the
13 verge of bankruptcy, and they need all of the
14 help they can get. So as the State Senator
15 that represents them, I want to work with you
16 and your team in order to help them survive.
17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes, we're
18 absolutely happy to do that. And we are
19 working with all of our Mitchell-Lamas that
20 are having challenges. We're working very
21 closely with them to make sure they can get
22 stabilized.
23 SENATOR JACKSON: The 31st Senatorial
24 District; Cordell, the 30th; and I think
117
1 Gustavo Rivera -- they are all under the
2 average wealth of the community. In essence,
3 the majority of the people are working,
4 trying to survive.
5 And so my question to you is: Under
6 the community-controlled affordable housing,
7 would Amalgamated fall under that since it's
8 basically people that have a limited amount
9 of money invested into co-ops?
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We have a
11 Mitchell-Lama funding program, so that would
12 probably be where we would most likely direct
13 them to in terms of resources at our agency,
14 is the Mitchell-Lama funding program.
15 SENATOR JACKSON: And would they be
16 able to receive help under the homeowner's
17 stabilization fund? I mean, I'm looking at
18 every opportunity that they can borrow money
19 or get grants in order to survive.
20 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I would say
21 we'll be happy to follow up with you on sort
22 of the resources we have specifically for
23 Amalgamated and how we can best get them the
24 investment they need to make their capital
118
1 repairs. We have been working with them very
2 closely for quite some time.
3 SENATOR JACKSON: Now, good-cause
4 eviction, there's been a bill that's been
5 pending in the State Senate since basically
6 we got into -- when I say "we," the Democrats
7 took leadership of the Senate.
8 Do you support good-cause eviction
9 that tenants should be able to renew their
10 lease without being thrown out and have a
11 good reason to evict them as the only way to
12 have eviction?
13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I would
14 say -- and, you know, the Governor has been
15 very clear about this -- that we want to make
16 sure that as we go into this budget season we
17 are incredibly focused on housing supply. We
18 were very focused on it last year, and we are
19 back again talking about the importance of
20 that to relieving pressure in the -- it's the
21 absolute main tool that we need to relieve
22 pressure in the housing stock.
23 And, you know, going back to the
24 Housing Vacancy Survey and the level of
119
1 production in the city has dropped from the
2 lapsing of the tax incentives, and we just
3 aren't keeping up also in terms of, you know,
4 people moving into New York City and yet the
5 housing that's available.
6 So I think we will -- you will
7 consistently hear us talking about housing
8 supply as our number-one issue for the budget
9 season.
10 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you.
11 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Thanks.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
13 Assemblyman Braunstein.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN BRAUNSTEIN: Thank you,
15 Commissioner.
16 I want to talk about the RUSH program.
17 So with the RUSH program, you're asking for
18 $500 million over two years to be
19 appropriated to UDC. UDC has statutory
20 authority to use general project plans to
21 override local zoning. Is the expectation
22 for these state properties that UDC is going
23 to use GPPs to override the local zoning?
24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Well, I'd
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1 say a couple of things.
2 So GPP can be used for disposition
3 only. It's not always used for rezoning.
4 That would be the example in the Gowanus
5 pilot that we were -- was in the news a bit
6 this week where it was used just to provide a
7 tax exemption only. So I would just
8 distinguish that it isn't always for
9 rezoning.
10 But to the larger question, I don't
11 know that we have clarity yet across --
12 depending on which sites end up being the
13 most appropriate, whether or not ESD would
14 need to be involved for disposition or
15 rezoning or whether they wouldn't need to be.
16 So I don't think we know the answer to
17 that yet.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN BRAUNSTEIN: So I
19 represent the Creedmoor site in
20 Eastern Queens, and there's already a
21 proposal that's been released. Is it
22 anticipated that ESD is going to be using a
23 GPP for that project?
24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I believe
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1 they will use GPP for disposition. And I
2 would -- yeah, I would think -- I think the
3 plan is to use it for the rezoning framework
4 there also.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN BRAUNSTEIN: Okay. So if
6 we were to approve this funding for future
7 unspecified projects, it's anticipated that
8 the administration will use GPPs as well to
9 override local zoning? Because you're doing
10 it with Creedmoor, right?
11 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Well, I
12 think in Creedmoor it has to go through some
13 process in order to get rezoned in order to
14 get disposed of.
15 But I wouldn't say it's for sure that
16 all the sites that are in the 15,000 would
17 necessarily use a GPP or, if they did, that
18 they would use it for rezoning.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN BRAUNSTEIN: If they were
20 using a GPP moving forward, would the
21 administration seek approval of local
22 legislators to make sure that they and the
23 community are comfortable with the project?
24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yeah, I
122
1 mean, I don't -- I think the idea and the
2 intent here is to make sure that -- and
3 because the sites are so different and
4 they're all sort of in different localities,
5 that there has to be a conversation at the
6 local level about what gets built there. So
7 I think that is very much anticipated to be
8 part of the process.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN BRAUNSTEIN: Okay. I
10 mean, because in Eastern Queens we've -- we
11 had a conversation that consisted of the
12 community making recommendations, Zooms with
13 ESDC. The community recommended a thousand
14 units, various types of housing. ESDC came
15 back with 2800 units, eight-story buildings,
16 completely out of context with the rest of
17 the surrounding community.
18 So, you know, having Zoom meetings and
19 having people offer opinions is not the same
20 as having an agreement with the local
21 community.
22 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Understood.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN BRAUNSTEIN: So given my
24 experience with Creedmoor so far, I just have
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1 concerns about giving this authority for
2 unspecified projects moving forward, and I
3 imagine some of my colleagues would as well.
4 Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
6 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Senator May.
7 SENATOR MAY: Hi, Commissioner, good
8 to see you.
9 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Hi. You
10 too.
11 SENATOR MAY: Let me start just by
12 saying that there's quite a bit in the
13 Governor's budget about housing for New York
14 City, but I hope that doesn't mean you're
15 taking your eye off the ball on upstate.
16 Senator Cleare had a very strong and
17 important message about the need for
18 affordable housing in her district. We had a
19 hearing in December about concentrated
20 poverty in our upstate cities. And one of
21 the messages we got is that if you build a
22 hundred percent affordable, that actually
23 contributes to more concentrated poverty.
24 But if you can have mixed-income development,
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1 that is much better for shifting the
2 character of the neighborhood.
3 So are there ways that the state can
4 use its granting powers to help us with more
5 mixed-income housing? Because what we are
6 finding is there's not that much flexibility
7 in the funding that's out there.
8 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes,
9 absolutely. And we'd be happy to work with
10 you sort of more specifically on projects if
11 you feel like they are -- need a little
12 pushing to get sort of the income mix to be
13 different than what it is. We're happy to
14 work with you on that.
15 We have a series of programs, we have
16 tweaked them over time to try to get at more
17 middle-income housing. It tends to be -- you
18 know, it's harder to finance. There's sort
19 of like a box for low-income and there's a
20 box for market, and the middle can be more
21 challenging.
22 But we have tried, with our state tax
23 credits and with our middle-income program
24 and a series of tools to try to drive a
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1 little more of that where the market can
2 support it and where it makes sense.
3 If there's other ways you think we
4 should be looking at that, we're happy to
5 work with you on that.
6 SENATOR MAY: Thank you.
7 And I guess in my office we're focused
8 on trying to come up with ways to make it
9 more affordable to develop housing, to reduce
10 some of the regulatory barriers and just the
11 costs of the lawsuits that come up when
12 people try to do developments in certain
13 areas.
14 So one of those is about reforming the
15 SEQR process in housing. And I talked with
16 the DEC commissioner about this. I don't
17 know if your office is at all involved in
18 that process of trying to shift it. I was
19 hearing from the groups that are here today
20 from the neighborhood development
21 organizations that they're really in favor of
22 that.
23 So can you say anything about where
24 you are on that?
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1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes. I'm
2 sure you may have heard from the DEC
3 commissioner they are starting to make some
4 changes in their process that will occur
5 during this year. And I think we look
6 forward to that being the beginning of a
7 series of changes that can get made to make
8 it easier.
9 And the City of New York is also
10 proposing some changes which will provide
11 sort of a guide path also for other changes
12 that we could make at the state level.
13 So we will continue to work with you I
14 think on getting changes on that -- on SEQR
15 as best we can.
16 SENATOR MAY: I look forward to it.
17 Thank you.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman
19 Lee.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEE: Hi, Commissioner.
21 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Hi.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEE: So earlier you
23 mentioned the vacancies for the number of
24 vacant units for rent-stabilized apartments
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1 was around 40,000, and that includes
2 apartments that are offline in that.
3 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So the thing
4 that we track at HCR which is different than
5 what's in the age for the city's HVS survey
6 is landlords register with us, but the status
7 of their apartment is on April 1st -- what
8 the status is as of April 1st each year. And
9 so, you know, at any given time on April 1st
10 a certain number of apartments are in between
11 tenants.
12 So we are back to historic norms for
13 what we see as apartments registered as
14 vacant on April 1st.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEE: Got it.
16 And that's 40,000?
17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I can get
18 you the exact number of it. It's sub -- I
19 believe it's sub 40,000.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEE: Okay.
21 In my district I have a large number
22 of rent-stabilized and rent-controlled units,
23 and I'm hearing from building owners that,
24 one, it's just getting difficult to maintain
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1 their buildings because of higher insurance
2 and property taxes, as well as bringing up
3 older units that become vacant up to code.
4 And, you know, this is an important
5 amount -- an important supply for my
6 communities. Do you have some solutions for
7 how we can help support getting more of these
8 apartments online that already exist?
9 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Absolutely.
10 I mean, we certainly hear some of those same
11 challenges. I don't know that they sort of
12 are reflected in the data so clearly, but we
13 certainly hear them anecdotally.
14 As you'll recall, the J-51 tax
15 exemption was passed last year which does
16 provide a tax exemption for owners in order
17 to be able to make investments in their
18 properties.
19 We also are passing a source of income
20 for insurance bill this year, which there
21 is -- people are seeing really big spikes in
22 their insurance. We're hoping that will
23 bring some of the cost down for insurance,
24 especially buildings that have affordable
129
1 tenants in them.
2 So, you know, we are trying with the
3 tools that we have, that we can, to try to
4 relieve some of that pressure. Again, as
5 I've said before, I think people are
6 certainly welcome to come talk to us about
7 financing if they'd like to take out a loan
8 from us that we can provide for them to make
9 capital repairs on their buildings.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEE: Maybe a fund to
11 help support improvements as well would be
12 helpful.
13 I also have large ethnic communities
14 in my district. I have a large Latino
15 population and a large Asian population.
16 These are, you know, households that are
17 multigenerational and like to -- they want to
18 live together. So the grandparents, the
19 parents, the children.
20 And I'm hearing from builders that
21 it's very difficult to get financing for
22 buildings with multi-bedroom apartments.
23 Studio and one-bedroom apartments are, you
24 know, easy, buildings with lots of studios
130
1 and one-bedrooms, but it's harder to get the
2 financing when you have three-bedroom
3 apartments and the like.
4 What can we do to help with that
5 financing to support that? Not just studios
6 and one-bedrooms. We need to be able to make
7 sure that our families can stay in the
8 neighborhoods where they are.
9 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: You know,
10 it's interesting, I actually haven't heard --
11 you know, we don't do a lot of sort of
12 market-rate financing. So I'm not as
13 familiar with what maybe the banks might be
14 saying to developers about that.
15 But happy to sort of do a follow-up
16 and see where there's a way we could be
17 helpful if we can.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEE: And it's for
19 affordable housing as well.
20 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Oh, for
21 affordable. Oh, well, we certainly
22 finance threes and fours. So we should
23 follow up and talk about that.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEE: Thank you.
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1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
2 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Senator Comrie.
3 SENATOR COMRIE: Good afternoon,
4 Commissioner.
5 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Hi.
6 SENATOR COMRIE: Happy Valentine's
7 Day.
8 Just to follow up, you mentioned
9 hardship for folks that are in
10 rent-stabilized units. Do you know what the
11 total amount of vacant units are in the
12 rent-stabilized stock?
13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So we track
14 vacancies as of April 1st each year.
15 landlords have to report to us the status of
16 the apartment on that date. And we are back
17 to roughly historic sort of pre-COVID norms
18 for vacancy in the rent-stabilized stock.
19 SENATOR COMRIE: You don't know what
20 that number is, though?
21 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Oh, yeah,
22 sorry. It's sub 40,000 units, which is where
23 it has historically been for the system.
24 SENATOR COMRIE: Okay. I have a bill,
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1 along with an Assembly companion bill, to
2 work on the rent-stabilized units, S6352C,
3 which would work on making sure that we could
4 come up with realistic numbers for that.
5 Have you had a chance to look at that
6 bill?
7 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I haven't
8 read it, but I'm familiar.
9 SENATOR COMRIE: You mentioned that
10 you can do some help for people that are in
11 that situation if they need to get loans.
12 How many loans have you actually granted?
13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So as I was
14 saying, we're happy to provide loans to
15 rent-stabilized building owners who need
16 low-cost loans to make building repairs --
17 SENATOR COMRIE: How many have you
18 actually granted?
19 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We have
20 worked with the associations. We've not had
21 a lot of interest from them in loans from us.
22 So we have not done -- I would have to go
23 back and check if we have done any. But they
24 have not expressed interest in getting
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1 low-cost financing from us.
2 SENATOR COMRIE: You mentioned that
3 you're having problems getting staffing up.
4 Were you able to improve your technology over
5 the last few years to be able to get better
6 computer systems?
7 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We have in
8 some places and not in others. But we have
9 active procurements in all the places where
10 we are very behind and will be bringing on
11 new systems this year.
12 SENATOR COMRIE: Okay. You mentioned
13 you're creating and preserving 40,000
14 affordable homes. Do you have a breakdown on
15 what was created and what was preserved?
16 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Our number
17 for the 40,000 is about -- a little less than
18 10,000 new. It's a little more than 20,000
19 preserved. And then the difference would be
20 homeownership, but I can't do the math in my
21 head that quick.
22 SENATOR COMRIE: And how many of those
23 homes were done with minority developers?
24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We can get
134
1 back to you with that. We are trying to make
2 great efforts to up the number of MWBE
3 developers that we work with across our
4 different programs. So be happy to circle
5 back on that.
6 SENATOR COMRIE: Okay. Then also how
7 much MWBE procurement or contracting have you
8 done within your agency? Supplies and
9 everything else.
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yup. So our
11 -- you know, the state's goal is 30 percent.
12 Our -- I think last year as an agency we were
13 at 29 percent. We are generally one of the
14 top agencies to meet the 30 percent goal. We
15 will exceed it in procurement. I think we
16 are north of 60 percent in our procurement on
17 MWBEs. And happy to provide you more sort of
18 detailed information if it's helpful.
19 SENATOR COMRIE: I only have
20 25 seconds, so I just want to concur with
21 what Assemblyman Braunstein said about
22 Creedmoor and making sure those numbers are
23 right and fit the context of the community,
24 and that the agency doesn't make a large
135
1 shift from what they promised us in the
2 beginning.
3 And also, with Senator Cleare, the
4 need for the state to build housing directly
5 is more important than ever. And I would
6 hope that we can delve down, and I want to
7 work with Senator Cleare to get back to a
8 statewide Mitchell-Lama development plan. We
9 can't have developers making affordable
10 housing. They just can't afford it. The
11 state can do it. We need to make it happen.
12 Thank you.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you,
14 Senator.
15 We go to Assemblymember
16 Chandler-Waterman.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN: All
18 right. Thank you so much, Chair.
19 Thank you, Commissioner. It's always
20 a pleasure to work with you and your team.
21 Thank you for the support on the ground in
22 our community meetings.
23 I want to talk about Mitchell-Lama
24 co-ops -- Vital Brooklyn Utica Crescent --
136
1 and faith leaders in housing development.
2 So does your agency have jurisdiction
3 over Mitchell-Lama?
4 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We do over
5 some, and the city does over others. But
6 yes.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
8 Okay. So ERAP. So shareholders apply for
9 ERAP, they're allowed to go through the
10 process, payment goes to the management
11 company, then they're told they don't
12 qualify, money is taken back.
13 What can be done to rectify this and
14 find a solution to assist shareholders in
15 arrears and management to navigate?
16 And then also, what contributions are
17 we doing for Mitchell-Lama as a whole, and
18 how we're supporting them and making sure we
19 are investing as we started, what we did
20 prior.
21 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure. So
22 ERAP specifically, OTDA operates that program
23 so I can't -- I don't know the specifics of
24 how many Mitchell-Lamas have applied for
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1 that.
2 We certainly work really closely with
3 our Mitchell-Lamas to make sure, you know, if
4 they run into trouble -- they are privately
5 owned and privately managed, and we are there
6 to assist them when they need us. And
7 especially when they need capital repairs, we
8 want to make sure that they're -- they have
9 support in that.
10 And we have $150 million in our
11 Housing Plan that we haven't actually
12 accessed yet. We will start -- we have been
13 using old appropriations and we will now
14 start to spend that down this year to help a
15 series of Mitchell-Lamas that need help with
16 capital repairs.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN: All
18 right. So I look forward to working with you
19 with that.
20 Vital Brooklyn Utica Crescent, with
21 the affordable project, that's now going to
22 be built in two years in my district. The
23 community preference, right, I know was
24 50 percent. It was changed due to the city
138
1 settlement. Does that apply to that project,
2 being it was done before the settlement came?
3 Did the community preference change, the
4 percentage?
5 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: My
6 understanding is that the litigation would
7 apply to anything that happens after the
8 decision was made, so I believe it would
9 apply. But we can get back to you on that.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
11 Okay. Faith leaders. What plan for
12 supporting faith leaders to be able to be at
13 the table for building affordable housing?
14 We have a perfect project that's being
15 done -- it's called Ebenezer -- in my sister
16 colleague Nikki Lucas's district. We would
17 like to see more of that with our faith
18 leaders. How can you support or do you have
19 a plan to help faith leaders to be part of
20 development?
21 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We work with
22 faith organizations across the state, from
23 Brooklyn to Buffalo, to develop property,
24 their property for affordable housing. So
139
1 we'd be happy to work with you if there's
2 specifics in your district. It's certainly
3 something we -- is a part of our work that we
4 really are proud of.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
6 Okay. And senior housing. I know that we're
7 going to have some percentage of senior
8 housing -- how much in that Utica Crescent
9 project will be allocated to the older
10 adults?
11 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I don't have
12 the exact numbers for that specific project,
13 but happy to follow up with you.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
15 Okay. Any other senior housing that you can
16 discuss with us now?
17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So we have a
18 program specifically for senior housing. So
19 we fund it in New York City and in the rest
20 of the state we have, in any given year, you
21 know, a number of projects that are
22 specifically for seniors. We'll be happy to
23 get you that list of projects if that's
24 helpful.
140
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
2 Okay. Thank you. And we did it in exactly
3 3 minutes. Thank you so much. Appreciate
4 you.
5 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yup. Yeah,
6 thanks.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So there are no
8 more Senators, so we're going to the
9 Assemblymembers. Assemblyman Burdick, who
10 will be followed by Assemblywoman Simon.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you.
12 Thank you for the great work that
13 you're doing.
14 And I want to mention my agreement
15 with Senator May in advocating for
16 mixed-income housing, and also would like to
17 add my support for good-cause eviction.
18 Further to the Comptroller's housing
19 report it recommends that each local
20 government should conduct a review of local
21 zoning rules and other actions. And that
22 recommendation seems to align with what the
23 Governor wants to do. And as my colleague
24 Assemblywoman Levenberg had mentioned, she
141
1 and I are working on a package of housing
2 bills, some of which already have been
3 introduced. They do not include construction
4 mandates but would require localities to take
5 action, including assessing need, updating
6 comprehensive plans if warranted, adopting an
7 actual housing plan to address community
8 need, and promoting climate-informed smart
9 growth and transit oriented development.
10 We would welcome feedback outside of
11 this hearing.
12 The New York City watershed
13 regulations also -- and I think I've
14 mentioned this to you -- are a hurdle for
15 many localities that need to build out
16 infrastructure. And of course we are keen on
17 protecting, you know, precious water
18 resources. But would really like to see your
19 thoughts and your help on how we can meet
20 both needs, and would appreciate your
21 comments.
22 My only other question at this
23 juncture is in a Zoom meeting we had with you
24 and your staff, we had talked about how we
142
1 might be able to increase the number of units
2 under the five-year affordable housing plan.
3 And you mentioned that some of those come
4 from federal dollars, but others might be a
5 possibility. Would appreciate it if you can
6 identify what programs might be expanded.
7 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure. Thank
8 you for the question. And we're happy to
9 work with both you and Assemblywoman
10 Levenberg to advance legislation that
11 increases housing supply across the state, as
12 is very much our focus in general, and
13 specifically for the next six weeks. So
14 happy to work with you on those bills that
15 you're proposing.
16 I think in terms of our ability to
17 expand the work that we do -- and I have said
18 this before -- you know, we spend every
19 dollar we get from the federal government
20 that is on our new construction --
21 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: But are there
22 any specific programs that maybe it's through
23 state dollars that might work?
24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I think that
143
1 for -- two things. One is I think for new
2 construction, we need federal dollars for new
3 construction. They are incredibly valuable.
4 And there is potentially movement at the
5 federal level right now to get some increased
6 capacity there, which we are excited about.
7 I think on the state funding programs,
8 those would probably be more around investing
9 in smaller homes or in smaller buildings and
10 doing sort of more renovation and sort of
11 capital improvement type work.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Maybe if we
13 could pursue that offline.
14 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yup.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: And on watershed
16 regulations?
17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I don't have
18 a lot of expertise in watershed regulations.
19 I would defer to Commissioner Seggos for most
20 issues around that.
21 But happy to continue discussion with
22 you as those things overlap with housing.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thanks so much.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
144
1 We go to Senator Martins.
2 SENATOR MARTINS: Good to see you
3 again. How are you?
4 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Hi. You
5 too. Good, thanks.
6 SENATOR MARTINS: You had mentioned
7 earlier that there were a series of sites
8 that needed statutory approval in their
9 authorization; therefore, they're identified
10 in the budget as potential sites for housing.
11 They include some sites on Long Island.
12 To me, that means there are other
13 sites that didn't require statutory approval.
14 Can you speak to that, whether or not there
15 is in fact a list of other sites across the
16 state that are state-owned, MTA-owned or
17 SUNY-owned properties that are being
18 evaluated for housing?
19 And if that list exists, is it
20 available for us to review?
21 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So I think
22 we'll get back to you on sort of the list
23 available for review.
24 But I would say sort of writ large,
145
1 there is a long list of sites and we are
2 working through which are most appropriate
3 for housing, which have the least number of
4 barriers in terms of how much infrastructure
5 they might need to have housing built on
6 them, so how quickly can we get them sort of
7 housing-ready. And the RUSH funding that's
8 in the budget is meant to pay for
9 infrastructure or for -- you know, for roads,
10 for water/sewer, for demolition, things like
11 that.
12 We don't need statutory authority for
13 most state-owned sites. The state has the
14 ability to dispose of property through the
15 UDC, and we would use ESDC for that.
16 So what you see in the budget around
17 SUNY is really some -- a tweak to allow them
18 to land-lease portions of their property.
19 SENATOR MARTINS: I understand -- no,
20 I understand that. And that's precisely the
21 point of the question, is that allowing the
22 opportunity for our local communities and
23 certainly us as representatives to understand
24 which sites are being evaluated and frankly
146
1 prioritized would be very helpful.
2 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yup.
3 SENATOR MARTINS: As you know, I
4 represent a district on the North Shore of
5 Nassau County, and so there are probably a
6 series of areas that could be impacted. And
7 certainly the sooner we know, the sooner we
8 can prepare for those.
9 I share a great village with
10 Assemblyman Ra that received a grant this
11 year. Very happy to say they're doing
12 wonderful work, built over a thousand units
13 before the carrot -- didn't need the stick.
14 But they're very happy to get that funding.
15 One of the themes that we get
16 oftentimes is the lack of a quick response
17 when these municipalities have a question,
18 and therefore projects are delayed. And it's
19 just more of a comment than anything else. I
20 understand. If you can look into that, that
21 is -- the turnaround time would make a huge
22 difference in terms of getting projects in
23 the ground and actually building the housing,
24 and it really should be something.
147
1 And to piggyback on Senator Comrie,
2 you know, we've mentioned quite often today
3 the need to incentivize landlords to invest
4 in making major capital improvements. We
5 understand that the housing stock in many
6 instances is not where it should be. And yet
7 these low-interest loans are not getting
8 people's attention. Why?
9 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I mean, I
10 think in general private landlords want to
11 work with the private financial market, they
12 don't want to take out loans from us. And
13 given where interest rates are, I think
14 that's challenging at this time.
15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
16 We go to Assemblywoman Simon.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
18 It's good to see you again.
19 So I have a couple of questions, and
20 some of my colleagues have asked similar
21 questions. And so one of the concerns we
22 have is -- or at least I have -- is
23 converting the commercial property to
24 affordable housing where it's 80/20. Now,
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1 there is a subset that is lower. But one of
2 the -- and I know you're focused on supply.
3 But in my district we've had an increase of
4 supply like crazy. Very little of it is
5 affordable.
6 And I will tell you I have a neighbor
7 who was in a converted building from factory
8 to -- and 22 years later got an affordable
9 unit.
10 And so the challenge really is the
11 supply of the affordable units. It doesn't
12 mean we don't need more, but we also need
13 really to look at affordability. So I'm glad
14 this year the Governor is talking about that,
15 which is a big change from last year. But
16 the real analysis is how much.
17 And the other is the types of
18 apartments that are being built. We have a
19 lot of studios and one-bedrooms. You can't
20 keep a family -- if you have two kids, you're
21 going to end up moving to the suburbs because
22 you can't find a three-bedroom apartment. We
23 really tried to control for that at
24 Atlantic Yards. We got a few of those units.
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1 As you know, they're still not built.
2 But what -- you know, this really is a
3 critical issue in terms of people leaving.
4 If they're leaving, they're leaving and going
5 to Maplewood, New Jersey. I know that's
6 where half of my district -- my neighborhood
7 went, to Maplewood, New Jersey, because they
8 had two kids.
9 So how can we change that approach?
10 Because that affordability needs to be more
11 permanent, and it needs to be deeper. And we
12 need more of those units.
13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I've never
14 been to Maplewood, but I agree that we want
15 people to --
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: It's a lovely --
17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: -- stay in
18 Brooklyn, and we want them to stay in
19 New York City and in New York State.
20 Look, I would say, you know, since we
21 were together this week celebrating 18
22 projects that are going to start construction
23 in the Gowanus area to create over 5,000
24 housing units, including 1400 very low,
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1 permanently affordable housing --
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Yes. We have
3 exceptions.
4 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Well, I
5 think that's sort of -- that's the map,
6 right? We have this great example of, with a
7 tax exemption in place -- or that was not in
8 place, but with the ability to sort of
9 replicate that through the process, so the
10 Governor announced in July we are now going
11 to create 1400 very low income, permanently
12 affordable housing units in your district,
13 and we want to be doing that everywhere we
14 can to create the affordable units and to
15 create the rest of the supply to help tamp
16 down prices.
17 So, you know, I think we would hope to
18 continue that conversation about how we need
19 that in other areas of the city.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Well, we're
21 getting a lot, but we need -- it's the mix.
22 And that's the real challenge. Because we
23 have plenty of luxury housing. That's what,
24 you know, they want to build. People will
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1 move in, but we're displacing people.
2 And, you know, we've had a lot of
3 displacement. In my district in particular,
4 we lost most of the Puerto Rican community
5 because they rezoned Fourth Avenue. Atlantic
6 Yards we've, you know, displaced 25 percent
7 of the African American community. So we
8 need to be careful about how we do that.
9 That's my concern.
10 Thank you.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
12 Assemblymember Taylor.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN TAYLOR: Thank you,
14 Commissioner. Thank you, Madam Chair.
15 Wow, I just sound like a broken record
16 here, so I don't want to do that. But
17 there's this old saying: If you build it,
18 they'll come to it. However, if you don't
19 build it, they're going to get forced out.
20 And I think that's happening across the
21 state, especially in the city.
22 So I want to be wise with my time.
23 There are three things that are really,
24 really important to me in my district in
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1 particular. One, can we do more vouchers but
2 increase the cost, the amount of the
3 vouchers? That may be helpful. We certainly
4 want to watch out for those that are
5 discriminated against that.
6 The other one is Wilson Major Morris
7 is a community center in my community that is
8 available -- and I have this in the budget
9 ask -- but they want to do housing. So that
10 would be a great collaboration. If we could
11 talk about that offline, that would be great.
12 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Absolutely.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN TAYLOR: The other thing
14 that I am just losing my mind about is
15 Mitchell-Lama.
16 Esplanade Gardens, they had a
17 $150 million investment in capital
18 improvement, and the place looks like they've
19 done diddly in there. I mean, it looks good
20 in the area, you've got blue lights on top of
21 the building, but you have no electricity in
22 some places. You have boilers that are
23 inadequate. You have water that looks like
24 it's brown most of the time.
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1 So the residents are at wits' end,
2 coupled with the fact that they have these
3 increases that they have to pay. They have a
4 loan they have to pay back. And no one seems
5 to care about them. That's my understanding.
6 Why? Because during COVID the Governor
7 allowed -- not this Governor, the previous
8 Governor allowed the capital work to go on
9 but no one watched what happened. It was
10 deplorable the way the people had to live.
11 And they have not been made whole.
12 These folks who are in here, this is
13 their sunrise -- the sun is setting on a lot
14 of their lives, and they can't even stay
15 there anymore. And I see no help, no relief,
16 and I am pissed to the highest. I just want
17 to say that.
18 The other issue that I want to put out
19 here really quickly is, is it possible that
20 the state can consider bonds and let us
21 build? When I say "us," get people to build.
22 Because the folks that are doing it right
23 now, there's a gain associated with it. And
24 I think we have to just stop, look back.
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1 There are a lot of things that they're doing
2 well, but we can do more.
3 Essentially what my colleague just
4 said. If we build three bedrooms, if we
5 don't change that narrative, then we already
6 know what we're going to get. It's a
7 self-fulfilling prophecy. If you build it,
8 that's what you're going to get: one
9 bedroom. Who's coming? Single families.
10 Single persons. But if you build it, you
11 want to keep families, what New York has been
12 the bread and butter of the world about?
13 Keep building families. And that's what it's
14 all about.
15 So I'll leave you time to -- oh,
16 shoot. Sorry. We'll have to talk offline.
17 (Laughter; inaudible overtalk.)
18 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Look, I
19 would say sort of on the -- I'm not sure
20 which thing to answer there.
21 But I would say on the Mitchell-Lamas,
22 we continue to work with all the
23 Mitchell-Lamas to make sure that -- you know,
24 they are privately owned and privately
155
1 managed, but we are there to support them to
2 make sure they can get access to --
3 ASSEMBLYMAN TAYLOR: They need
4 oversight, they need critical -- because
5 right now it's almost criminal some of the
6 stuff that's happened there. And everybody
7 said, you know, they have ability to do --
8 they have not done a job well. They're not
9 real estate people. They don't own. And I
10 appreciate -- I apologize for cutting you
11 off. But they don't know how to do the job.
12 And no one's making sure that the job is done
13 correctly. That's my bone to pick.
14 Can we talk afterwards?
15 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Absolutely.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you,
17 Assemblyman.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN TAYLOR: Thank you,
19 Commissioner. I apologize.
20 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: That's all
21 right.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
23 Meeks.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: Thank you,
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1 Madam Chair.
2 Commissioner, thank you for joining us
3 today.
4 I have a question or concern. I'm
5 from Rochester, New York. And often we deal
6 with the Tale of Two Cities. We've made some
7 strides in the space of new housing, but I
8 think we also need to keep in mind existing
9 housing stock and the many in our community
10 who are on fixed incomes, struggling to stay
11 afloat, and need assistance sometimes with
12 things as simple as a new roof or improved
13 windows.
14 But with these new developments that
15 come about, often mixed-income or low-income
16 housing, I think we need to be mindful about
17 the opportunities that we could provide our
18 community. All too often we see majority
19 white men come into the community, build
20 these projects up, and then you have BIPOC
21 communities that live there.
22 So it's like here is something new,
23 something different for you all to live in.
24 However, we don't afford these communities
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1 the opportunity to generate wealth in
2 building these type of projects, and we
3 continue to see the fact that we have
4 communities such as three of the poorest top
5 five zip codes in Rochester in my district.
6 And I think we need to capitalize on
7 these opportunities. How could you support
8 such an effort and be intentional when it
9 comes to project labor agreements to assure
10 that members of the community have an
11 opportunity to generate wealth?
12 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So I would
13 say a couple of things, one sort of relate --
14 not so directly related and one directly
15 related.
16 One is we launched the Homeowner
17 Stabilization Fund, and we are going to be
18 working in Rochester in areas of high
19 homeowners of color, also high levels of
20 housing distress, because we want to make
21 sure that those historic neighborhoods in
22 places like Rochester that have a lot of
23 oftentimes elderly Black and brown
24 homeowners, but who have a lot of distress in
158
1 their houses, are getting assistance to be
2 able to make repairs to roofs and boilers and
3 any other type of sort of capital they need
4 so they can stay stably housed in those
5 communities.
6 So I think that's important for us too
7 in your sort of Tale of Two Cities narrative.
8 I think on the other side, you know,
9 we make sure -- we are -- have made changes
10 to our programs to get more MWBE developers
11 in them, to sort of your point about who's
12 building the buildings we're talking about.
13 And we also enforce our MWBE in the
14 contracting to make sure that the contracts
15 that we are -- that are sort of by extension
16 being let out through the projects that we're
17 financing are going to MWBE contractors. You
18 know, there are not as many -- in some parts
19 of the state there are more or less MWBE
20 contractors, so we are sometimes less or more
21 successful in that effort, depending on where
22 we're working.
23 But, you know, I would also say we'd
24 be happy to work with you if you think
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1 there's other things we could be doing to get
2 a bigger impact there.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: Yeah, I would love
4 to work with you in that space, because there
5 are things that we could do even as they
6 relate to our high schools and educational
7 opportunities to, you know, bring about like
8 co-ops and training opportunities for some of
9 our youth in the community as well as adults.
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Great. I
11 think the commissioner of Labor will be
12 delighted to partner with us on that also.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
15 We go to Assemblywoman Kelles.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Thank you so
17 much for being here.
18 Just one thing I want to mention off
19 the top, I see that HOPP, first-time
20 homeowners and land banks were cut. I know
21 this was a legislative add. I'd love for us
22 to stop playing that game back and forth,
23 honestly. We're a team. Let's be a team.
24 I'd love to see these back in the 30-day
160
1 amendments.
2 Next, how long does it take to build a
3 new housing development?
4 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: That sort of
5 varies, depending on the scale of the
6 building.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: A range.
8 What I'm reading is 47 years
9 nationally. Does that sound about right to
10 you?
11 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: For a
12 construction?
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Yup. No, for
14 the process.
15 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Oh. I --
16 some projects go faster and some take a very
17 long time. It depends on --
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: I have one, for
19 example, in my district: 10 years, still not
20 done. It was going to be affordable. It's
21 now luxury. Perfect example.
22 It takes two years, on average, to get
23 through SEQR. This isn't a solution to the
24 affordable housing crises that people are
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1 facing right now.
2 I just want to point out like we can
3 talk about it, it's part of the process for
4 sure. It is absolutely not a solution to
5 people not being able to afford their --
6 So, you know, we're looking at -- the
7 Comptroller right now just released a
8 report -- I just want this on record: Cost
9 burdens are the primary driver of housing
10 insecurity. New York consistently ranks as
11 one of the states with the highest cost
12 burden. Rates of rental cost burdens have
13 increased across all cost levels.
14 Significant racial disparities among
15 households suffering from household
16 insecurity. Housing insecurity among
17 New York's seniors exceeds the national
18 average. Evictions have been higher in
19 New York than the national average.
20 New York's rate of homelessness, about five
21 per thousand, was highest among all states.
22 Developing new housing is not going to
23 address this crisis. It's just not. That is
24 a now thing. If housing takes a couple of
162
1 years, that will solve future problems. I'm
2 totally with you, great. I'd love to see the
3 faith-based housing also in this budget; that
4 would be amazing. That's a Cunningham bill.
5 But we do need those renter protections.
6 You talked about renter arrears,
7 Section 8, that we're helping with Section 8.
8 But I did want to give some statistics.
9 Essex, which is one of our counties, their
10 average wait time to get the Housing Access
11 Voucher Program {sic} is 11 years. My
12 town -- my district, three years.
13 Just, again, it's a problem. And that
14 about 50 percent of those who get the Housing
15 Access Voucher Program {sic} in New York City
16 can't find a unit within the six months that
17 they have to find it, and then they lose it
18 and go back to the end of the line. It's not
19 a solution in and of itself.
20 We have HAVP, the Housing Access
21 Voucher Program, to supplement that. Do you
22 support that, supplementing this?
23 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Look, I
24 definitely would say that -- I would, at the
163
1 risk of disagreeing, say that we really --
2 this really is a supply issue. And we have
3 to be focused on supply.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: I hear you, but
5 supply is years in the building. It's not
6 going to affect those who are being evicted
7 right now.
8 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: If we don't
9 start building today, this problem is never
10 going to go away.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: We can do both
12 at the same time. We can walk and chew gum
13 at the same time. I really do believe that.
14 We're really, really powerful as a state.
15 And we're innovative.
16 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I agree.
17 Look at the case of vouchers. There would
18 not be a place that a voucher-holder in
19 New York City could even -- there's
20 functional zero vacancy, right? So it's a --
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Good cause,
22 HAVP, TOPA. Love to see those -- love to see
23 your support on them.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
164
1 We go to the Senate.
2 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Yes, I think I'm
3 the last Senator today for this witness.
4 So, first of all, thank you for your
5 patience and your testimony and your
6 thoughtful answers, and for all the walking
7 and chewing gum you do all year round.
8 Just a couple of questions that some
9 of my colleagues have asked that we do
10 follow-up on.
11 First of all, the Homeowner
12 Stabilization Fund, I understand there are 10
13 communities that have received that funding.
14 Can you tell us which 10 communities?
15 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I can't name
16 them all off the top of my head, but they are
17 going to our board for approval tomorrow.
18 We've already funded Buffalo, and the other
19 nine will go to our board tomorrow for -- but
20 I'm happy to send you what the list is, I
21 just can't recite them. I know it's Utica
22 and Hempstead and Buffalo and --
23 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Presumably they'll
24 be in the public -- they'll be public as of
165
1 tomorrow and --
2 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes, we can
3 send it -- yes, we can send it to you today.
4 SENATOR KAVANAGH: One of my Senate
5 colleagues was asking.
6 Just -- I want to circle back to the
7 pro-housing conversation and just we -- you
8 and I had -- again had a chance to have this
9 conversation offline. But just for those
10 present and for those listening, New York
11 City is not currently an applicant for
12 Pro-Housing status.
13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: They have
14 not applied yet.
15 SENATOR KAVANAGH: They have not
16 applied, right.
17 So if we were to do what's in this
18 budget, the expectation is that the City of
19 New York would become ineligible for some of
20 the programs that are referenced, like the
21 Downtown Revitalization Initiative, unless
22 they proceed to --
23 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yeah, they
24 need to apply and get certified before that
166
1 application program opened up.
2 SENATOR KAVANAGH: All right. So
3 that's obviously a conversation I think some
4 of us from the city should have with the city
5 as well.
6 I also just want to, just for -- this
7 has been talked about in various ways a
8 couple of times, but just to make sure we're
9 crystal-clear on the 40,000 vacancies.
10 Forty-thousand vacancies is the number of
11 apartments that were vacant as of April 1st
12 of this year? That's the two thousand --
13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Of the --
14 SENATOR KAVANAGH: I'm sorry, forgive
15 me, obviously not April 1st this year.
16 April 1, 2023. And that represents
17 about 4 percent of the housing stock. And
18 the longstanding standard in New York State
19 for what constitutes a housing emergency is
20 an excessively low vacancy rate that is below
21 5 percent. That's been the legal standard
22 for a long time.
23 So to the extent we're seeing vacant
24 apartments, based on your survey, it's a
167
1 snapshot of units that most of which will be
2 rented up promptly, they're just available
3 for rent as of that moment, and that number
4 is not out of the norm, does not reflect --
5 although there does seem to be some
6 warehousing and there does seem to be some
7 dilapidated apartments. And we've had
8 proposals to deal with that.
9 But that does not represent any
10 increase that we should be addressing of
11 vacancies that's cropped up in the system
12 over the last few years.
13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Correct.
14 For us, it sort of aligns with the historic
15 norm, so.
16 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Great.
17 Okay, thank you.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: And to close up
19 this panel, for her second round,
20 Assemblywoman Rosenthal.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Thank you.
22 The first thing, I want to thank HCR
23 and the Governor for working together with
24 the Stop Croman Coalition and my office to --
168
1 well, he owes five hundred -- more than
2 $500,000 in fines. And you did a great job
3 investigating --
4 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Thank you.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: -- all of
6 his misdeeds, but he continues to perpetrate.
7 I also want to shout out Mike Barrios,
8 who's been a long-time employee who's just
9 wonderful.
10 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Thank you.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: I want to
12 get on the record that after we passed HSTPA
13 in 2019, some landlords said: "We are going
14 to let our apartments fall into disrepair."
15 I just want to get that out there; it's a
16 deliberate tactic by some landlords.
17 I want to know, how much affordable
18 housing do you think we need? Because
19 there's been talk about 800,000 units needed
20 across the state, but there hasn't been
21 delineation of how much of that needs to be
22 affordable. And also by county, how much do
23 you think? And at what AMI bands?
24 We can have a longer conversation, but
169
1 I wonder about your thoughts on that.
2 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Look, I
3 would say -- and you heard me say this
4 before, right -- we take every resource we
5 get and stretch them as far as we can get to
6 make sure that we can finance as much
7 affordable housing, whether that's new
8 construction, preservation, investing in
9 single-family homes, really -- providing
10 mortgages to first-time homebuyers. Right?
11 We are across working in manufactured
12 home parks sort of across the board trying to
13 get at affordable housing in every -- you
14 know, not just a multifamily rental building,
15 but really other types of affordable housing
16 that might not be as -- you know, sort of
17 come to mind as quickly.
18 So we are doing that everywhere we
19 can. We have always sort of a pipeline
20 that's bigger than we can meet with the
21 resources we have from the -- sort of the
22 base resources we have from the federal
23 government as it relates to new construction
24 of multifamily housing. Until we get sort of
170
1 relief from the federal government, that's
2 sort of hard to increase.
3 I don't know that we have a number on
4 what the right number is. Our projections
5 are really looking at job growth and
6 population growth and saying, you know, over
7 the next 10 years if we do the same thing we
8 did for the last 10, we could expect 400,000
9 units -- and we really need more like
10 800,000. We're already behind, right,
11 because 421-a has expired --
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Yes, but I
13 mean --
14 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: It's
15 expired, and we're not producing --
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: --
17 affordable. And there's not just one tool,
18 which is relying on developers who are in the
19 business of making a profit. And that's
20 their business, but we overly rely on them to
21 produce affordable housing. And, you know,
22 we're sort of under the gun here with that.
23 Other question -- so in Congress
24 there's a LIHTC bill to increase -- or a
171
1 LIHTC discussion and bill. How do you think
2 the state would use all of those credits were
3 we to get them?
4 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So there's
5 two pieces to it. One is an increase in our
6 9 percent low-income-housing tax credit. So
7 we will -- if the bill passes, we will award
8 more projects those credits and we will do
9 more projects each year with that.
10 On the bond side, sort of similarly,
11 we will -- it will increase our capacity to
12 close more deals each year.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
15 So Commissioner, that is it for --
16 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Thank you.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: As Senator
18 Krueger says, we have not run out of
19 questions, we've run out of members' time to
20 ask questions.
21 (Laughter.)
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So thank you
23 for being here. There may be a few times
24 that you didn't have a full opportunity to
172
1 answer questions, so we look forward to
2 anything in writing from you so we can
3 distribute to members.
4 And just continue to thank you for
5 being here and look forward to continuing to
6 work with you.
7 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Great.
8 Thank you very much.
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So we will now
10 begin the nongovernmental portion of the
11 hearing. People are -- the witnesses will be
12 in several different panels. And we will be
13 starting with -- the first panel is Panel A.
14 And Assemblyman Burdick, why don't you talk
15 to the commissioner outside.
16 We will start with New York State
17 Association for Affordable Housing;
18 Neighborhood Preservation Coalition; the
19 Community Preservation Corporation; New York
20 State Public Housing Authority Directors
21 Association, and Pratt Center for Community
22 Development on behalf of Basement Apartments
23 Safe for Everyone.
24 And for those leaving the hearing,
173
1 please do so -- to the extent you want to
2 have a conversation, please do that in the
3 hallway so that we can continue on our long
4 hearing and people can get home for
5 Valentine's Day -- or Valentine's Night.
6 Can members take their conversation
7 with the commissioner out in the hall so we
8 can continue with our hearing? Thank you.
9 So if we can -- just a reminder, three
10 minutes for presentation. Your remarks have
11 been received, reviewed by members, posted on
12 our websites.
13 And with that, if we could start with
14 Jolie Milstein.
15 MS. MILSTEIN: Thank you.
16 Good afternoon, Chairs Weinstein,
17 Kavanagh, Rosenthal, and other honorable
18 members of the Legislature. I'm Jolie
19 Milstein, president and CEO for the New York
20 State Association for Affordable Housing. We
21 represent more than 400 members statewide who
22 play a critical role in the financing,
23 construction and operation of affordable
24 housing.
174
1 Thank you for the opportunity to
2 testify regarding Governor Hochul's 2025
3 Executive Budget for housing.
4 We'd like to thank the Governor and
5 the Legislature for previously enacting and
6 continuing a $25 billion, five-year
7 Housing Plan to create and preserve
8 100,000 new and preserved homes. NYSAFAH
9 members have been employing these resources
10 to help address the housing affordability and
11 supply crisis across our state.
12 And despite our successes,
13 pandemic-related consequences continue to
14 significantly impair affordable housing
15 property operations and financial stability.
16 We ask that $250 million be approved for a
17 new affordable housing relief fund to provide
18 needed capital monies and debt restructuring
19 to ensure at-risk properties remain available
20 to tenants.
21 High interest rates, rising insurance
22 costs and rent arrears have forced projects
23 to absorb additional debt and placed them in
24 severe financial and physical distress. Last
175
1 year the 391 million that was included in the
2 enacted State Budget for the payment of
3 rental arrears for tenants in public
4 housing -- including NYCHA -- and federal
5 Section 8 voucher holders was appreciated,
6 but we really need an additional $250 million
7 investment in a new fund for at-risk
8 properties that will complement the
9 Legislature's prior-year commitment.
10 We also ask that you support the
11 Executive Budget proposal to prohibit
12 insurance-related discrimination against
13 affordable housing, housing in urban areas
14 where crime rates are higher, and against
15 landlords that rent to Section 8 voucher
16 holders.
17 Increased insurance premiums, combined
18 with a lack of availability of property and
19 casualty insurance are endangering affordable
20 housing.
21 We further urge you to authorize a
22 three-year pilot program that would carve out
23 affordable housing from the Scaffold Law, to
24 measure the impact lower insurance rates will
176
1 have on affordable housing production. The
2 existing Scaffold Law has contributed to
3 skyrocketing insurance rates and has driven
4 most insurance companies from the New York
5 market, adding substantial costs to general
6 liability coverage for affordable housing
7 developments.
8 We ask that you amend the law to allow
9 the State Historic Tax Credit to be sold to a
10 different investor from the federal historic
11 tax credit. This will increase the
12 attractiveness of the State Historic Tax
13 Credit and its value, bringing greater
14 private investment to affordable housing
15 projects.
16 And we ask that you enact an
17 as-of-right tax benefit to replace the 421-a
18 abatement.
19 Thank you for the opportunity to
20 testify today and for your consideration of
21 our budget request. I welcome your
22 questions.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
24 Everybody else should pay attention to
177
1 the clock.
2 MS. MILSTEIN: Was that good? I
3 practiced.
4 (Laughter.)
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Mark Streb,
6 Neighborhood Preservation Coalition.
7 MR. STREB: Good afternoon.
8 First I'd like to start off by saying
9 thank you to each and every one of you for
10 your incredible support of the frontline
11 not-for-profit housing workers during this
12 housing crisis. It is your steadfast support
13 of the Neighborhood Preservation Program that
14 allows essential services to be provided.
15 These boots-on-the-ground community leaders
16 are often the difference between a family
17 living in a home versus a shelter versus the
18 streets. The incredible value of that cannot
19 be overlooked.
20 For this year's budget, $18.34 million
21 is requested to fund the Neighborhood
22 Preservation Program. That is a 4 percent
23 increase from last year's allotment.
24 Additionally, the Neighborhood Preservation
178
1 Coalition seeks a carveout of $260,000.
2 This program was originally created as
3 a response by the forward-thinking State
4 Legislature to the recognition that
5 Neighborhood Preservation Companies face
6 significant challenges due to inadequate
7 funding. These not-for-profit housing
8 organizations play a crucial role in
9 addressing the escalating demand for
10 affordable housing community services. Their
11 services range from housing counseling to
12 home improvement and rehabilitation projects
13 to food programs to eviction protection.
14 Unbelievably, Governor Hochul's
15 proposed budget presents a concerning
16 reduction of $4.8 million from last year's
17 funding, lowering the NPP allocation to
18 12.83 million. This decrease will severely
19 impact vital services provided. Cuts aren't
20 carrots. Cutting funding for the frontline
21 workers fighting the housing crisis is wrong
22 and must be reversed. Families' and
23 children's lives will be negatively affected
24 if this draconian cut is instituted.
179
1 In addition to the program's human
2 capital is the economic development
3 investment of this program. By working with
4 the community in leveraging other resources,
5 this program's return on investment is over
6 13 to one. The money is put back into the
7 neighborhoods. It's put into the
8 communities.
9 In addition to this fantastic return
10 on investment, the local not-for-profits must
11 provide matching funds of 33 percent -- a
12 true testament that this program is
13 community-driven from the very neighborhoods
14 that it serves.
15 The urgency of the housing crisis
16 can't be overstated. Half of renters and a
17 significant portion of homeowners in New York
18 State are burdened by housing costs, with
19 low-income households bearing the brunt of
20 this burden.
21 In closing, I will repeat my request
22 that the Neighborhood Preservation Program be
23 funded at $18.34 million, with a $260,000
24 carveout for the Neighborhood Preservation
180
1 Coalition.
2 Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Community
4 Preservation Corporation.
5 MS. BURNS-MAINE: Thank you, Committee
6 Chairs Rosenthal and Kavanagh and other
7 distinguished members of the New York State
8 Senate and Assembly, for the opportunity to
9 speak today.
10 My name is Erin Burns-Maine, and I'm
11 senior vice president for policy and
12 government affairs at the Community
13 Preservation Corporation. On behalf of CPC,
14 I'd like to express gratitude to Governor
15 Hochul's administration, Commissioner
16 Visnauskas, and the Senators and
17 Assemblymembers who continue to advance
18 housing solutions here in New York State.
19 Today our affordable housing crisis is
20 ongoing, and the impacts are being felt by
21 all New Yorkers. Renters are pinched by the
22 high rents and limited supply. Statewide,
23 the percentage of renters who pay more than
24 30 percent of their income reached 51 percent
181
1 last year. The recently released New York
2 City Housing Vacancy Survey revealed the
3 city's vacancy rate had fallen to
4 1.4 percent, as we've talked about today, and
5 it's far below the range of 5 to 8 percent
6 that signifies a healthy housing market.
7 The situation is bleak for buildings
8 as well. As expenses have grown considerably
9 while collections remain below pre-pandemic
10 levels in a high-interest-rate environment,
11 affordable and rent stabilized buildings have
12 seen intensifying pressure on operations,
13 leading to tightening debt service coverage,
14 deferred maintenance, tax and water/sewer
15 arrears and mortgage delinquency.
16 From CPC's work managing a large
17 mortgage portfolio for affordable housing,
18 we've seen delinquencies double over the last
19 several years, dramatically increasing the
20 amount owed. We've also seen per-unit
21 insurance premiums increase an average of
22 17 percent a year since 2020, resulting in an
23 over 50 percent increase on pre-pandemic
24 rates.
182
1 Tenants and owners need help
2 navigating these complicated times. And just
3 as no one factor causes the housing crisis,
4 no one solution will fix it.
5 We support the Governor's proposal to
6 prioritize competitive programming funds for
7 communities that can demonstrate their
8 commitment to identifying and removing
9 impediments to housing growth, thereby
10 driving investments in communities that
11 welcome new construction. The Pro-Housing
12 Community program would reward communities
13 and help to grow the state's housing supply.
14 We are also encouraged by the
15 Governor's proposal to prohibit insurance
16 carriers from raising premiums on property
17 owners based on a tenant's source of income,
18 the existence of affordable housing units, or
19 the receipt of government assistance. We
20 encourage the Legislature to pass this
21 legislation to ensure that the criteria
22 informing insurance underwriting decisions
23 does not discriminate against affordable
24 housing properties and their tenants.
183
1 We also are looking for the
2 Legislature to help convene stakeholders and
3 experts from across the housing field to work
4 towards creative solutions to address the
5 rising cost of insurance across the state
6 that, absent meaningful action, will continue
7 to plague affordable housing providers and
8 developers.
9 But the single most important tool
10 needed to facilitate the development needed
11 to meaningfully increase supply is the
12 restoration of an as-of-right tax incentive
13 for multifamily housing development. We call
14 on the Legislature to enact 485-x. 421-a was
15 not perfect. However, this program has -- I
16 will stop there -- has been improved.
17 Thank you.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
19 William Simmons?
20 MR. SIMMONS: Thank you. I come
21 before you to discuss NYSPHADA's budget
22 request for this fiscal year.
23 Over the last several years, NYSPHADA
24 has worked closely with our partners in the
184
1 state -- HCR, the Governor's office and the
2 Legislature -- to urge public housing
3 authorities to rethink how they rehabilitate
4 public housing stock in need of
5 modernization. Many of our authorities are
6 considering RAD projects and pursuing
7 innovative alternatives to repurpose their
8 facilities.
9 NYSPHADA is very grateful for the
10 Legislature and the Executive for their
11 incredible support in the past several budget
12 cycles to help modernize and rehabilitate our
13 aging facilities. We are expecting more
14 housing authorities to pursue major upgrades
15 and Rental Assistance Demonstration projects
16 in the years to come. Therefore, we
17 respectfully request that the Legislature and
18 the Executive set aside $150 million in this
19 year's budget for public housing authorities
20 outside of New York City for substantial and
21 moderate rehab and/or the demolition and
22 replacement through the construction of
23 public housing authorities developments
24 outside of New York City.
185
1 We have taken advantage of over
2 $250 million in the last five years to help
3 public housing authorities across New York
4 State modernize their facilities. We want to
5 continue that momentum for our public housing
6 authorities and provide the highest quality
7 of life for all of our residents. Several of
8 our authorities have undergone renovations
9 utilizing New York State tax incentive
10 programs, including the following: Albany,
11 Amsterdam, Auburn, Buffalo, Freeport, Geneva,
12 Glens Falls, Greenburgh, Herkimer, Ithaca,
13 Kingston, New Rochelle, New Hempstead,
14 Rochester, Rome, Saratoga Springs,
15 Schenectady, Troy, Utica, White Plains and
16 Yonkers.
17 In addition to our budget request, we
18 want to address an issue pertaining to
19 insurance discrimination. Insurance
20 discrimination is becoming an ever-growing
21 issue in the affordable housing market. As
22 public housing authorities continue to
23 transition to RAD, we are more concerned
24 about the growing threat of insurance
186
1 discrimination.
2 Therefore, NYSPHADA strongly supports
3 the passage of Senator Brian Kavanagh's bill
4 to address housing discrimination practices
5 by insurance companies for low-income
6 residents. This bill prohibits insurance
7 discrimination for affordable units -- as
8 well as Assemblywoman Linda Rosenthal's bills
9 that will address this issue as well,
10 prohibiting insurance companies from
11 requesting information on or discriminating
12 against buildings for the use of rental
13 subsidies in such buildings.
14 We therefore agree to support these
15 legislations and hope that we can get some
16 assistance with this unlawful discriminatory
17 practice.
18 Thank you.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
20 And last, Sylvia?
21 MS. MORSE: Thank you.
22 Good afternoon, Chair Weinstein,
23 Chair Kavanagh and all members of the Senate
24 and Assembly here today. Thank you for the
187
1 opportunity to address the fiscal '25
2 Executive Budget proposals on housing.
3 I'm Sylvia Morse, speaking on behalf
4 of Basement Apartments Safe for Everyone, or
5 BASE, a coalition of policy, legal services
6 and community organizations dedicated to the
7 safety and affordability of basement and
8 cellar apartments in New York City.
9 We strongly support Education, Labor
10 and Family Assistance Article VII, Part S, to
11 enable New York City to create a program to
12 safely legalize existing basement and cellar
13 dwelling units.
14 Basement and cellar apartments are a
15 critical part of the city's low-income
16 housing stock, home to tens of thousands of
17 New Yorkers, and concentrated in areas that
18 are majority people of color and where rent
19 burden and poverty rates are higher than
20 citywide.
21 Yet because these homes are not
22 legally recognized, there are no regulations
23 or resources available to ensure their safety
24 and affordability. Current law prevents
188
1 upgrades to better protect tenants in the
2 event of fire or the growing risk of
3 flooding, as tragically shown by the deaths
4 of 11 New Yorkers in subgrade units during
5 Hurricane Ida. The city's only regulatory
6 tool is a vacate order, which can result in
7 immediate homelessness for tenants with few
8 housing options, and destabilizing fines and
9 loss of income for low- and moderate-income
10 homeowners.
11 This legislation would grant New York
12 City local control to establish safety
13 standards for below-grade apartments and
14 create a program to existing units into
15 compliance. It would not automatically
16 legalize any basement or cellar apartment.
17 This citywide program would build on
18 the city's East New York basement conversion
19 pilot program, which established eligibility
20 criteria and safety standards agreed upon by
21 a multi-agency task force.
22 Specifically, this legislation would
23 make basement and cellar conversions feasible
24 and affordable by addressing duplicative and
189
1 outmoded regulatory barriers in New York
2 State's Multiple Dwelling Law, or MDL. Under
3 current law, basement apartments in two- and
4 three-family homes would become subject to
5 MDL upon conversion.
6 In two-family homes, the whole
7 building may be newly subject to the MDL,
8 requiring costly renovations unrelated to
9 basement safety. In the East New York pilot,
10 the MDL drove up conversion costs by
11 prohibitive six-figure increases. This
12 effectively barred two-thirds of pilot
13 applicants from the program, and we estimate
14 that the MDL may prevent much-needed safety
15 upgrades in half of potentially eligible
16 units.
17 There's precedent for this
18 legislation. The Legislature has passed
19 similar exemptions for loft conversions. And
20 the proposed reforms to MDL are narrow but
21 imperative for housing safety in New York
22 City. Without regulatory relief, basement
23 and cellar units will persist in the informal
24 housing market and remain beyond oversight.
190
1 Homeowners will be prevented from making
2 safety upgrades, and tenants will be left
3 vulnerable to hazardous conditions, eviction,
4 or to life-threatening disasters like
5 Hurricane Ida.
6 The power to bring safety measures to
7 New York City's basement and cellar
8 tenants -- or leave them in unsafe
9 conditions -- rests with this Legislature.
10 Thank you.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
12 We'll go to Assemblywoman Rosenthal
13 first, three minutes.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Thank you.
15 I'd like to thank all of you for your
16 wonderful work.
17 I'm wondering if you've had
18 conversations with the Governor or her team
19 about the needs that you've just talked
20 about, and if there is some sense of
21 understanding that we can't just rely on the
22 Legislature to play that game every year to
23 add funding for your necessary work.
24 MR. STREB: Thank you, Assemblywoman.
191
1 Yes, every year, you know, when the
2 cycle starts, you know, back in November,
3 December, we reach out to DOB, we reach out
4 to our partners at HCR and have this
5 conversation. Because it's too important of
6 an issue to make everybody go back and forth.
7 The thought or the difficulty it puts
8 on these people that are boots on the ground,
9 providing these services, knowing that their
10 funding may be cut -- and all they do is work
11 really hard to provide services.
12 So we try every year and thankfully to
13 everyone here, you guys see fit that this
14 funding is recognized and important.
15 Thank you.
16 MS. MILSTEIN: Thank you for the
17 question, Chair Rosenthal.
18 Yes, we start early, probably at the
19 end of session last year, with reaching out
20 to the second floor, to HCR, and bring our
21 members. We've been meeting with the second
22 floor and many of you over the last six
23 months because we know that it's a lot to
24 ask, and we want to make sure that we answer
192
1 any questions regarding these requests. And
2 we continually reach out to the second floor
3 and to HCR staff to make sure that we're all
4 on the same page with the necessity of
5 providing this funding and are available to
6 answer any questions.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Anyone else?
8 MR. SIMMONS: Yes. Thank you for the
9 question.
10 We -- you know, as I recognized in my
11 opening comments, we work very, very closely
12 with HCR and have been able to get a number
13 of great projects completed throughout
14 New York State with the dollars.
15 It's been my understanding that there
16 are some monies left over from the
17 250 million, but most of those dollars are
18 spoken for. Buffalo and Syracuse, where I'm
19 the executive director, we have large,
20 transformative projects that will be looking
21 for some future dollars in the near future
22 and would not want that momentum to stop.
23 And so yes, we really have been
24 working closely with HCR over the past five
193
1 years and looking forward to working with
2 them over the next five.
3 Thank you.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Thank you.
5 One of the themes of this hearing has
6 been the need for affordable housing with
7 people who are homeless and people being
8 priced out of the state. And so denying the
9 groups in front of me enough funding to keep
10 people housed is insane.
11 Thank you.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate.
13 SENATOR KAVANAGH: So I'll just begin
14 with a few questions, and a couple of my
15 colleagues also have questions today.
16 So just for starters with the -- I
17 guess just start with Ms. Milstein and your
18 affordable housing relief fund. Can you just
19 a little -- I think this is going to be new
20 for some members of the panel, and perhaps
21 others watching. Can you just talk a little
22 bit more about, you know, you mentioned it's
23 partly because of arrears that built up and
24 other constraints during COVID.
194
1 Can you just talk a little bit more
2 about how that would work and sort of why
3 existing HCR programs are not adequate to
4 address that?
5 MS. MILSTEIN: Yes, thank you for the
6 question, Chair Kavanagh.
7 We have been working closely
8 throughout the pandemic with our members and
9 with HCR to do everything we can to triage
10 the lack of revenue coming in to support
11 these buildings because of delays in the ERAP
12 program and people misunderstanding what
13 their liability and their responsibility is
14 to pay the rent.
15 At the same time, we have supply chain
16 problems, we have rising interest rates, we
17 have insurance costs and other operating and
18 maintenance expenses going through the roof
19 during the same time. So revenues are going
20 down, expenses are going up. And in the best
21 of times those revenues are fixed.
22 So we've been working with HCR -- and
23 in fact NYSAFAH is just now drafting a term
24 sheet for how this might all work -- to
195
1 understand that for projects that aren't in
2 line yet for recapitalization, which would
3 typically happen with our stock at Year 15 or
4 Year 30. These projects are newer than that,
5 and they didn't anticipate in years past that
6 they would need this influx of capital to
7 maintain the building, to replenish reserves
8 and to just keep the building from
9 foreclosure.
10 So we understand that we would --
11 we've proposed that we would have a per-unit
12 cap, a per-building cap. This isn't meant
13 for substantial rehabilitation. This is
14 meant to get these buildings that experienced
15 problems during COVID to get through this
16 period of distress, back on their feet and
17 make it to the regularly cycled reinfusion of
18 capital in 15 years.
19 SENATOR KAVANAGH: And this would
20 be -- it would be a pool of funding,
21 $250 million of capital funding, that then
22 effectively HCR would come up with some kind
23 of a program for people to articulate the
24 particular needs for their building and --
196
1 MS. MILSTEIN: That's right. There
2 would be -- HCR would establish the criteria
3 to qualify for what we see as a forgivable
4 loan over like 10 years. So, you know, we're
5 really thinking with HCR about how to
6 structure this so it makes sense, so we're
7 not overspending, but we're really taking the
8 buildings that are most at risk first and
9 prioritizing the needs.
10 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Okay. And three
11 minutes goes fast, so I'll just take a minute
12 to thank our other four panelists. You know,
13 we work very closely with each of your
14 organizations. You know, thank you for your
15 testimony today and for all the work you do.
16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
17 We go to Assemblyman Epstein.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Yeah, thank you
19 all for being here.
20 Just for NYSAFAH and CPC, do you agree
21 to a permanent affordability requirement to
22 exceed 12 FAR, like MIH?
23 MS. MILSTEIN: It certainly makes
24 sense to us. We're not a part of the
197
1 conversation, but look, we really want to
2 return autonomy to New York City over their
3 land use, and we're in favor. And obviously
4 we care about affordability, but we haven't
5 really examined what the criteria would be to
6 have that move forward.
7 MS. BURNS-MAINE: We'd be happy to be
8 part of that conversation as well.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: So at this point
10 do you have a public position on MIH
11 exceeding 12 FAR?
12 MS. BURNS-MAINE: We're supportive of
13 the current proposal on the FAR cap, but we'd
14 love to be part of the conversation to work
15 out those details.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: So just if I can
17 turn our attention to 421-a. You'd even
18 mentioned labor standards for 421-a, so I'm
19 wondering what requirements or labor
20 standards are you saying? The Governor
21 didn't really put much in about labor
22 standards, and it's been a long conversation
23 about that as well as permanent
24 affordability.
198
1 If you'd quickly -- I don't have a lot
2 of time unfortunately.
3 MS. MILSTEIN: Anybody else want to
4 take that one?
5 MS. BURNS-MAINE: There's a level of
6 detail that needs to be worked out for the
7 485-x proposal. And I -- you know, and given
8 the time allotted, I don't know that we can
9 roll up our sleeves and dig into all of it.
10 But as was raised earlier, I think
11 during budget, to make sure that we figure
12 out the AMI levels to make sure that we get
13 the financing to work, that it pencils, that
14 we are creating the units that need to be
15 created.
16 What I would say is I think throughout
17 this hearing today we've heard time and time
18 again about the low vacancy numbers. We know
19 that 51 percent of HPD's pipeline last year
20 was -- those were 421-a housing starts.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And labor
22 standards too, across-the-board labor
23 standards?
24 MS. BURNS-MAINE: So again, so I -- I
199
1 can't get into the details of labor
2 standards right --
3 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: If it pencils
4 out, it pencils out, basically.
5 MS. BURNS-MAINE: I would be happy to
6 be part of that conversation. CPC's at the
7 table, and we would love to engage and make
8 sure it works.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Great.
10 So just on the BASE, thank you for all
11 your work as well.
12 So if we don't do this in the budget,
13 what authority does the city not have and why
14 do we need to do it in our state budget?
15 MS. MORSE: Right. So right now
16 New York City, you know, the rules that are
17 local that govern basement conversions are
18 essentially the Housing Maintenance Code,
19 Building Code, and zoning.
20 The East New York pilot really is
21 what -- did what a pilot program is supposed
22 to do, showed us what the barriers were. And
23 what we've seen is that with the Multiple
24 Dwelling Law, it's effectively impossible to
200
1 convert basement and cellar units in two- and
2 three-family homes.
3 So potentially with zoning reforms and
4 other efforts at the city level, there could
5 be a program that serves single-family homes.
6 But tenants who are living in basement or
7 cellar apartments would basically have
8 different rights or opportunities to make
9 their homes safe, depending on whether
10 they're in single- or two-family homes.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Great.
12 And just for NPC, clearly we've got to
13 get the money back in for capital for
14 New York City, as well as in New York City.
15 I appreciate you pushing for that. We need
16 to make sure that your capital dollars are
17 with you. Thank you.
18 MS. MILSTEIN: Can I just say thank
19 you for your leadership on the Martin Act.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
21 To the Senate.
22 SENATOR KAVANAGH: There we go.
23 Senator Comrie.
24 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you all for
201
1 being here.
2 I just wanted to follow from what you
3 said -- you said right now with the
4 regulations it's impossible to do ADUs for
5 what categories?
6 MS. MORSE: So specifically for
7 basement and cellar apartments in two- and
8 three-family homes. It's prohibitively
9 expensive and complicated.
10 SENATOR COMRIE: And what have your
11 costs been estimated for the one-family
12 homes?
13 MS. MORSE: That depends. I could
14 share, potentially, follow-up data on the
15 East New York pilot program.
16 But the costs for conversions in two-
17 and three-family homes are double what they
18 would be in single-family.
19 SENATOR COMRIE: My understanding is
20 that there was only one successful conversion
21 in that study. And can you tell us why?
22 MS. MORSE: So again, I can share in
23 detail after this, if it's helpful, the
24 interim report on the pilot program. There
202
1 are a small number of homes going through.
2 But the reason that that program has
3 not been able to reach more homes is because
4 of the Multiple Dwelling Law, which is what
5 we're advocating to reform today.
6 SENATOR COMRIE: Okay.
7 Different topic. The need for
8 solutions to rehabilitate existing apartments
9 and rent-stabilized units is keener than
10 ever. And from what I'm told, the 15 grand
11 cap is just not realistic.
12 Have you made any adjustments to come
13 up with a realistic cap for that, or looked
14 at our bill that I have with
15 Assemblyman Burgos to look at how to make
16 sure we can really get 10,000 units back
17 online and rent-controlled, rent-stabilized
18 units?
19 (No response.)
20 SENATOR COMRIE: Okay. Since nobody's
21 answering that question, we'll go -- I'll
22 keep going.
23 How many minority developers have you
24 worked with in developing housing? Or rehab,
203
1 rehabbed apartments.
2 MS. MILSTEIN: We have a program that
3 fosters and mentors MWBE developers. And
4 every year, in fact, we give an award to an
5 MWBE developer that's done something
6 innovative or new.
7 And we're very proud of the work we
8 do. And CPC has been a leader here too in
9 expanding the pool of qualified, capable MWBE
10 developers in the state.
11 MS. BURNS-MAINE: Absolutely. So
12 through CPC's access initiative, we've
13 committed $40 million in capital to new
14 up-and-coming BIPOC developers in New York
15 State.
16 In addition to doing that, we've run
17 now I think four or five cohorts of a very
18 successful program that brings resources to
19 the table, it's a training program, it's an
20 incubator program that has a curriculum that
21 gets folks up and going with their projects
22 and also starts building a network.
23 SENATOR COMRIE: How much actually has
24 been completed, completed projects that
204
1 are --
2 MS. BURNS-MAINE: That's a great
3 question. I'd be happy to follow up with you
4 with the exact numbers of developers we've
5 engaged and units completed. Happy to follow
6 up.
7 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you.
8 I think that's my time, so -- I could
9 go longer.
10 (Laughter.)
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
12 Assemblyman Braunstein.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN BRAUNSTEIN: Thank you.
14 I want to talk to Ms. Morse about the
15 basement apartments. I just want to share
16 with you some of my concerns about the
17 Executive proposal.
18 For one, it doesn't seek to reform the
19 MDL, it just says "the MDL notwithstanding."
20 So there's questions about what safety
21 regulations would apply. Should we just not
22 withstand the MDL?
23 The other concern I have is cost. We
24 had Commissioner Carrión testify at a hearing
205
1 in December, and he estimated to convert
2 illegal apartments to make them up to code
3 would be 300,000 to $500,000 each. And we're
4 talking -- let's -- I don't know, can we
5 expect people to be able to pay $300,000 to
6 upgrade these units?
7 And I also have trouble with only
8 illegal apartments, right? Like right now
9 you're someone who's renting your apartment
10 out illegally, you're probably not paying
11 taxes on it, you're putting people in harm's
12 way, and we're going to say to you now the
13 city's going to give you a low-interest loan
14 to upgrade your property?
15 Whereas the person who lives next door
16 to you who's been following the rules all
17 along, perhaps they wanted to move a family
18 member into their basement -- they're
19 prohibited from doing it under the Governor's
20 proposal. It just seems -- that's troubling
21 to me that someone who followed the rules
22 can't do it, but someone who broke the rules
23 is now getting subsidized so they can fix the
24 apartment, continue to rent it out and
206
1 collect revenue.
2 So it's -- the concerns I have is the
3 notwithstanding the MDL and now knowing what
4 safety rules apply, not having any kind of
5 conversations with the fire department and
6 those groups.
7 The cost. Right? If it's $300,000 to
8 upgrade, $30 million will get you, what, a
9 hundred units, right? And we've seen the
10 challenges you had in East New York.
11 And then, finally, the concept of
12 just -- how do you even prove -- like how do
13 people prove that they're illegally renting
14 their apartment? You know, people see this
15 coming, should they start renting their
16 apartment illegally so they can come out and
17 say, Look, I've been doing this illegally,
18 now pay for the upgrades?
19 The whole concept is something that I
20 just -- I'm not comfortable with. And, I'm
21 sorry, there's 40 seconds to respond.
22 MS. MORSE: Sure.
23 So on the first point, so the
24 primary -- New York City's housing
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1 maintenance code, building code, that's
2 really the primary way that New York City
3 regulates the safety. The MDL is another
4 layer on top of that that applies to multiple
5 dwellings. So for single-family homes, for
6 two-family homes that exist today, they're
7 not subject to the MDL. So they are already
8 governed by New York City's robust safety
9 regulations. And that is what would govern
10 the safety of these newly converted units.
11 In terms of cost, again, that cost is
12 being driven up by the challenges of trying
13 to interpret and comply with this additional
14 layer of code that's in many cases
15 duplicative of the MDL. And it is less than
16 new construction.
17 And on the last piece, I would just
18 say that it --
19 ASSEMBLYMAN BRAUNSTEIN: We'll follow
20 up. We're out of time. You did well,
21 though. You almost got it all in there.
22 Thank you.
23 MS. MORSE: I tried.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We ran out of
208
1 time.
2 Senate?
3 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Senator Cleare?
4 (No response.)
5 SENATOR KAVANAGH: I don't think we
6 have any other Senators.
7 No other questions from the Senate.
8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman
9 Chandler-Waterman.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN: All
11 right. Thank you so much, Chair.
12 Thank you so much for all the work
13 that you do to advocate for our landlords and
14 our tenants.
15 So I just wanted to ask NPC, Mark
16 Streb -- I appreciate working with you and
17 your team, especially within my district,
18 when it comes to landlord/tenant concerns,
19 especially with the issue with -- the issue
20 with ERAP issues with Mitchell-Lama. We had
21 a great meeting a week ago about that:
22 Sinking houses, infrastructure concerns due
23 to overdevelopment in our community.
24 We wish it was all affordable, right,
209
1 the housing, but we can keep working together
2 to reimagine housing. So I know there's like
3 a nearly 5 million cut, right? What service
4 or program would we lose if that cut is in
5 effect? And are you able to leverage
6 services with the dollars, you know, you
7 receive now? How does that impact us on the
8 ground? Because I mentioned the things that
9 we are doing together. Are we losing that?
10 Could you please --
11 MR. STREB: Thank you.
12 Right now each of the Neighborhood
13 Preservation Companies -- you know,
14 on-the-ground not-for-profit housing
15 organizations -- receive roughly $129,723 for
16 each organization. And that allows them to
17 pay for staff, keep the lights on, keep the
18 phone working. And that -- when somebody
19 comes in, you know, a tenant or landlord that
20 has a problem that they don't know how to
21 solve or they need help with, that is what
22 those staff, those organizations do.
23 So we're $30,000 per company, which
24 the cut would be -- that equates to not quite
210
1 a full-time staff person, but it equates to
2 20 to 30 hours of staff work a week, and
3 that's direct people that wouldn't be
4 assisted or helped when they come into the
5 office.
6 So it's -- you know, and that is
7 roughly a 33 percent cut, 34 percent cut in
8 their funding. And during a housing crisis,
9 we should be going the other way. Last year
10 was the first year -- thank you again -- that
11 we actually saw our funding increase to make
12 up for decades of flat funding, which is a
13 cut in funding based on the inflation from
14 the last 20, 25 years.
15 So people -- services would not be
16 provided. New York State HCR, we have a lot
17 of good programs. But if we can't get the
18 programs to the people, they're no good.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
20 Thank you so much.
21 And with the basement apartments, we
22 know that during COVID there was a lot of
23 regulations with garages and basement
24 conversions, and we know we're trying to be
211
1 creative how we do affordable housing. I
2 want to make sure as we make things legalized
3 that the constituents are worrying about are
4 they going to be overregulated now, is there
5 going to be more stuff put on them, more
6 burden, because now that it is -- become
7 affordable -- how do you answer that?
8 MS. MORSE: So if this legislation
9 were passed and New York City were able to
10 create a basement legalization program, the
11 only homeowners who would be subject to the
12 new regulations would be those who applied
13 and said, I want to bring my basement or
14 cellar apartment up to code and provide
15 housing.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
17 We'll talk offline. Thank you.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
19 Assemblyman Burdick.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Yes, thank you.
21 And thank you all for the work that
22 you do in this space. It's incredibly
23 important. You folks have been integral in
24 increasing the supply of housing and
212
1 particularly affordable housing.
2 I don't know if you were following the
3 exchanges with Commissioner Visnauskas, but
4 you may have heard that my Hudson Valley
5 colleague, Dana Levenberg, and I are
6 introducing a package of housing bills. We
7 believe they complement the Governor's
8 policies and would appreciate your looking at
9 them and considering supporting them.
10 And we'd appreciate your letting us
11 know offline the appropriate person we'd
12 email them to.
13 And this next question I think is
14 directed primarily to CPC, and that is that
15 while we welcome the Governor's proposals to
16 expand housing, we believe it would be
17 helpful to have more that is statewide in
18 scope. And certainly there are things there,
19 but what more might you suggest that we do?
20 MS. BURNS-MAINE: Thank you,
21 Assemblymember, for that question.
22 You know, I think that the approach
23 that was laid out in the Pro-Housing
24 Communities is something that we're very
213
1 supportive of. I think we have to work
2 across all levels of government, so there's
3 also I think some federal housing resources
4 that were raised a little bit earlier
5 today -- we were talking about the affordable
6 housing tax credit bill and the LIHTC
7 expansion. These are things that would
8 definitely support overall housing
9 development in New York State and the
10 provision of housing and subsidies flowing to
11 the streets.
12 I'd be happy to speak further and
13 explore that more.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: That would be
15 great.
16 MS. BURNS-MAINE: We'd be happy to,
17 yes.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Any other on the
19 panel who might add to that?
20 (No response.)
21 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Good. No, we'd
22 be very interested in discussing that further
23 with you offline. Thanks so much.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman
214
1 Lee.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEE: This question is
3 for Mr. Simmons and Ms. Milstein.
4 You know, last year in the budget we
5 were able to secure $391 million statewide
6 for public housing and Section 8 housing to
7 fully fund the Emergency Rental Assistance
8 Program. Can you talk about how that's being
9 implemented across your developments and
10 across your members' buildings and, you know,
11 the benefits you've seen from that funding?
12 MR. SIMMONS: Well, in our case the
13 program's been tremendous. It's helped out
14 so many families. Because especially as you
15 know, for those families who have to leave
16 public housing with any arrears, they are no
17 longer prohibited from participating in the
18 public housing programs until those arrears
19 are cleared up.
20 So initially, before the program was
21 implemented, we had families that couldn't
22 pay their rent, moved out of public housing
23 and couldn't get into public housing nowhere
24 else in the country, couldn't even get access
215
1 to the voucher program.
2 But with those resources, it helped
3 many families out tremendously. It even
4 helped out the housing authorities.
5 Obviously those dollars went to pay for
6 sorely needed staff to maintain the
7 properties, and for the physical upkeep.
8 And so in Syracuse we had probably
9 $2.3 million in arrears. We were able to
10 make a big dent in those dollars, and we're
11 still getting dollars in. With your help and
12 so many other Assemblymembers -- even the
13 administration -- in flowing of the dollars
14 and how they come to our properties, that
15 process has been improved with the help of I
16 know in particular Assemblywoman Chair
17 Rosenthal helped out some of our public
18 housing authorities.
19 Because oftentimes that resident had
20 to accept those dollars when they came in,
21 but many of them moved on and the housing
22 authority still had that debt. And the
23 New York State Assembly, in particular
24 Assemblywoman Rosenthal, was able to help out
216
1 the Ithaca Housing Authority, and so many
2 received those dollars.
3 So it has helped out tremendously.
4 And it -- naturally more would help, but
5 yeah, it really was a great program.
6 MS. MILSTEIN: Thank you for your
7 question. NYSAFAH was very involved in
8 advocating for those funds. And we didn't
9 stop once the funds were appropriated, we
10 actually got involved with OTDA. We were
11 like a concierge service for public housing
12 and for affordable.
13 And it really -- all of the tenants
14 who had some sort of subsidy were at the back
15 of the line, and this money allowed many
16 subsidized tenants who legitimately suffered
17 through COVID, to receive those funds. And
18 we helped OTDA understand, from the tenant
19 and landlord side, what was going on. And we
20 really intermediated there and got those
21 funds delivered very quickly and efficiently
22 to tenants, which went through to landlords.
23 And now that the money's all been
24 spent -- there's some slight overhang because
217
1 of timing -- we really need to make sure that
2 those buildings can stay afloat.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 We go to Assemblywoman Kelles to close
5 for this panel.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Thank you so
7 much.
8 First question for Mark, Neighborhood
9 Preservation Coalition. Can you just -- you
10 touched briefly, but can you give us a
11 comprehensive list of the projects that you
12 all do that help keep people in their homes?
13 MR. STREB: Thank you. And thank you
14 for your support.
15 The programs that our organizations
16 provide run the entire gamut. Not every
17 organization provides the exact same
18 programs, but we -- you know, when somebody
19 comes in and says "I don't have any heat" or
20 "My landlord's going to evict me" or, you
21 know, "A tree fell through my roof" or "I
22 don't have any hot water" -- you know, the
23 list goes on and on and on.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: So you're the
218
1 catchall, really, for people to keep them in
2 their homes, get them in their homes.
3 MR. STREB: When people need help,
4 they come to us and we help them.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Is there any
6 other entity in the state that does that?
7 MR. STREB: You know, we have a sister
8 organization, you know, the Rural
9 Preservation Coalition, the Rural Advocates.
10 Great organizations. You know, we do more of
11 the urban and suburban; they do more of the
12 rural -- hence the name.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: They're your
14 counterparts, so it's the --
15 MR. STREB: Yes.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: -- the rural
17 and the neighborhood.
18 MR. STREB: Right.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: But there's no
20 other entity that does that work.
21 MR. STREB: No. I mean, there are
22 other housing not-for-profits that do not
23 participate in the Neighborhood Preservation
24 Program, so those are great organizations
219
1 also. So --
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Okay, so
3 there's some.
4 MR. STREB: But there's a subset that
5 participate in this specific program. And,
6 you know, we all provide different services.
7 Because when somebody comes in, even
8 if we don't provide it, we don't say, Oh,
9 sorry, we don't provide that service. We
10 say: Let's find out how we can help you.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: So there are
12 organizations -- you all support each other,
13 you're a network, but you create a
14 foundation. I understand there's 60 RPCs.
15 How many NPCs are there?
16 MR. STREB: We're at around 134 right
17 now. They opened it up --
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Okay, so we've
19 got these 200 organizations that provide this
20 work, we've got others that do this as well.
21 You've got an over $10 million cut between
22 the NPCs and the RPCs in this budget. This
23 is used for operating funds, correct?
24 MR. STREB: Yes. This is to allow the
220
1 doors to stay open -- the heat to be on, to
2 pay for administrative costs. This is a very
3 unique program that allows them to provide
4 services.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: So it will
6 prevent you from being able to expand any of
7 those supports and potentially lose staff.
8 MR. STREB: Right.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Okay. I just
10 wanted to get a sense of what the impact
11 would be across the entire state if we
12 allowed for this 10 million cut.
13 And the other -- really quickly, and I
14 apologize for this, I can't get to everyone.
15 I love that you are all here. Thank you so
16 much. The 150 million for the public
17 authorities, can you describe a little bit
18 what all of that would be used for around the
19 state?
20 MR. SIMMONS: Sure.
21 Well, as I'd mentioned before, as the
22 executive director for the Syracuse Housing
23 Authority, we have a transformational program
24 that takes some 675 units of public housing,
221
1 repurposes those, and adds on its footprint a
2 total of 1,400 of mixed-income and
3 market-rate units to deconcentrate poverty
4 and repair these units.
5 And so we'll be doing this over a
6 10-year period of time. And I think Buffalo
7 has the same type of a project. And there
8 are a number of other upstate organizations
9 that need to repurpose their properties as
10 well.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Thank you so
12 much.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
14 I want to thank all of the witnesses
15 in this panel.
16 And we move on to Panel B: Legal
17 Services New York City, Jay Inwald;
18 Legal Services Access Alliance, Erica Zimny;
19 Center for New York City Neighborhoods,
20 Christie Peale; Right to Counsel Coalition
21 and Community Action for Safe Apartments/New
22 Settlement, Randy Dillard; and Tenant
23 Political Action Committee, Michael McKee.
24 Mr. Burdick, can you please take your
222
1 seat so we can begin?
2 Jay, you can begin.
3 MR. INWALD: Thank you so much.
4 Jacob Inwald from Legal Services NYC,
5 director of litigation for economic justice.
6 I'm here to talk today about the Homeowner
7 Protection Program. Most of you are familiar
8 with it.
9 I am not going to actually read my
10 testimony because I think you've all really
11 heard all the particulars. I want to just
12 seize on a couple of things that the
13 commissioner said and address some of those
14 things.
15 Regrettably, this is an annual
16 exercise. I know we're a couple of weeks
17 past Groundhog Day, but it really feels like
18 that. I do this every year. I got a
19 Facebook memory generated this morning,
20 Here's a memory from seven -- oh, and it was
21 a press conference that we held in support of
22 restoring funding for HOPP seven years ago to
23 the day.
24 So if I'm expressing a little bit of a
223
1 tone of irritation, it is not directed at the
2 Legislature. The Legislature has -- I have
3 nothing but gratitude to the Legislature that
4 has restored our funding for really more than
5 a decade. But I am a little bit grumpy about
6 it because there are better things that I
7 could be doing with my time than trying to
8 prevent us from being defunded.
9 And the annual threat of our defunding
10 is not without -- it's not just the
11 irritation of having to do the advocacy. It
12 has real consequences. These are long,
13 complex cases. And when there's a cloud of
14 uncertainty about whether we continue to have
15 funding come July, we cannot take new cases.
16 Right? It inhibits our case acceptance.
17 There are people who lose their homes because
18 of that.
19 It causes staff attrition, right?
20 Because there are staff who are at risk of
21 losing their jobs, and there are other
22 opportunities that they -- so it is not just,
23 you know, this game of football without any
24 consequences.
224
1 And it was startling to hear the
2 candor of the commissioner to just say, well,
3 it was a legislative add. That to me is not
4 a satisfactory policy response for why the
5 Governor does not value this program. So I
6 think you're entitled to know why it is that
7 the Governor doesn't think that this is
8 worthy of funding.
9 I want to also mention the subject of
10 deed theft. The commissioner mentioned that
11 there are provisions in the budget addressing
12 deed theft. And I want to point out that as
13 recently as November 14th the Governor signed
14 important legislation addressing deed theft
15 surrounded by two of our clients -- who we
16 restored their titles to -- and she sang the
17 praises of Brooklyn Legal Services, only to
18 two months later propose defunding the agency
19 that restored over -- almost a decade's worth
20 of litigation, that homeowner's -- those
21 homeowners' homes.
22 So all these protections are great,
23 but if there are no advocates to actually
24 vindicate those rights, that's really a
225
1 problem.
2 I know I only have a few seconds left,
3 but I also just want to mention this is an
4 issue of racial justice. The mortgage
5 default rate for communities of color is
6 twice that of what it is for white
7 homeowners. And if you are talking about
8 depriving homeowners in need of these
9 services, you're talking about depriving, you
10 know, a few communities in particular. So
11 that's also hugely problematic. And the need
12 is still really egregious. We've doubled the
13 number of clients that we've served over the
14 past year.
15 So thank you, and I think I got the
16 main points in.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
18 Erica?
19 MS. ZIMNY: Good afternoon, Senator
20 Krueger and Assemblymember Weinstein, Senator
21 Kavanagh, Assemblymember Rosenthal, and
22 members of the Legislature and staff here
23 today. Thank you for the opportunity to
24 submit testimony regarding Governor Hochul's
226
1 fiscal year 2024-2025 Executive Budget as it
2 pertains to housing.
3 My name is Erica Zimny, and I'm a
4 deputy director at the Legal Aid Society of
5 Northeastern New York. Our executive
6 director at LASNNY is Nic Rangel, and she is
7 a board member of the Legal Services Access
8 Alliance.
9 The Legal Services Access Alliance
10 represents the seven largest providers of
11 free civil legal services outside of New York
12 City and includes Neighborhood Legal
13 Services, Legal Assistance of Western New
14 York, Legal Services of Central New York,
15 Legal Aid Society of Mid-New York, the Legal
16 Aid Society of Northeastern New York, Legal
17 Services of Hudson Valley, and Nassau Suffolk
18 Law Services. We collectively serve every
19 county outside of New York City and employ
20 nearly 1,000 legal services workers.
21 We have two main budget requests we'd
22 like to present to the committee for
23 consideration.
24 First, continue support for legal
227
1 services for evictions. We are grateful for
2 Governor Hochul's continued support of
3 $35 million in funding in the Executive
4 Budget for the Legal Representation for
5 Eviction Services Program. This program is
6 also commonly referred to as the Eviction
7 Defense and Housing Stability Program, and it
8 was created to provide legal services and
9 representation for eviction cases outside of
10 New York City.
11 Last year the Legislature appropriated
12 an additional $15 million to further expand
13 this program to New York City and other areas
14 throughout New York, for which we and our
15 partners are incredibly appreciative.
16 The Office for Temporary and
17 Disability Assistance administers this
18 program, and this funding has been critical
19 to assisting struggling New Yorkers. OTDA,
20 with expertise in providing services to those
21 with housing instability, has been an
22 excellent partner in implementing this
23 program and serving the public. With this
24 state support, the alliance members and
228
1 partner organizations have helped countless
2 individuals navigate through their eviction
3 crisis.
4 This funding has been transformative
5 for eviction services in New York. With this
6 state investment, all the alliance members
7 and subcontracting partners' eviction
8 programs have grown, as have the number of
9 staff who can provide these legal services
10 throughout New York. We have increased the
11 network of eviction legal services and
12 expanded representation in underserved areas,
13 including city, town and village courts in
14 our rural counties, and all other underserved
15 tenants.
16 Additionally, the alliance is
17 continuing to develop our partnerships with
18 local law schools to recruit and train new
19 lawyers, which will help to create a diverse
20 and robust pipeline of civil legal service
21 providers in New York. We have also hosted
22 several statewide training programs, attended
23 by hundreds of legal services attorneys, to
24 help build out best practices in providing
229
1 eviction representation in New York.
2 Lastly, with this state support,
3 alliance members have obtained a federal
4 Technology Initiative Grant to develop a
5 statewide online intake portal to increase
6 access to legal representation, and also
7 created a toll-free hotline that tenants can
8 call to be directed to.
9 Thank you.
10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Next?
11 MS. PEALE: Good afternoon. My name
12 is Christie Peale, and I am the CEO and
13 executive director for the Center for
14 New York City Neighborhoods.
15 I would like to thank Chairs Krueger,
16 Weinstein, Kavanagh and Rosenthal for today's
17 hearing and the opportunity to testify.
18 I'm here today to call for the full
19 restoration of the Homeowner Protection
20 Program, also known as HOPP, at the level of
21 the previous budget number of $40 million.
22 And I'd just like to take a moment to add to
23 some of Jay's comments.
24 So you probably know that the HOPP
230
1 network not only has amazing legal services
2 partners, as you just heard from, but also
3 high-quality housing counselors who serve
4 every county across New York State. We serve
5 15,000 families every year, and over the
6 course of the decade-plus that we've been
7 around, we have served 120,000. We've helped
8 these New Yorkers avoid homelessness,
9 crushing debt and displacement.
10 Just another piece of Jay's point,
11 43 percent of our clients across the state
12 are BIPOC New Yorkers. In New York City,
13 that percentage is 75 percent.
14 We save New York State over
15 $1.2 billion in value preservation,
16 property-value preservation, property taxes
17 and other costs every year. So while this is
18 a significant investment in this incredible
19 network of service providers, we help the
20 state maintain value, and we help the state
21 maintain property tax revenue. Every
22 million dollars invested in HOPP yields a
23 return of over $5 million in tax and property
24 cost savings.
231
1 If the HOPP funding is not restored,
2 we lose a huge number of assets, as you heard
3 from Jay, including the statewide toll-free
4 hotline, representation at mandatory
5 settlement conferences. And again, I keep
6 mentioning property tax payments because I
7 think it's a really huge issue across the
8 state, and the HOPP network has been really
9 significantly impactful in making sure that
10 municipalities, school boards, every taxing
11 entity got paid through the Homeowner
12 Assistance Fund over the past two years, to
13 the tune of $53 million. So we are
14 maintaining revenue and returning revenue to
15 the state.
16 To that point, we are also calling on
17 the state to find additional funding for
18 direct financial assistance for homeowners.
19 We're asking for $50 million to help all of
20 the homeowners who couldn't get assistance
21 through the Homeowner Assistance Fund. They
22 weren't eligible due to federal restrictions,
23 or we weren't able to get to them. We served
24 18,000 families, in partnership with the
232
1 state, but there are many others who we
2 weren't able to help.
3 And on the revenue side, I just wanted
4 to highlight Chair Rosenthal's vacancy
5 registration and tax bill. This is an
6 opportunity to generate revenue. In
7 addition, the End Toxic Home Flipping Act
8 could also generate revenue. We could look
9 at affordable title insurance. We have a lot
10 of ways that we can generate the revenue that
11 we need to save New York families.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
13 Randy Dillard.
14 MR. DILLARD: Yes, I'm Randy Dillard.
15 I'm with the Right to Counsel Coalition, and
16 I'm also with Community Action for Safe
17 Apartments.
18 I'm here today because I had an
19 attorney, I went to court in 2013 for
20 nonpayment, which money I did not owe.
21 Section 8 did an inspection on my apartment,
22 and my apartment didn't pass inspection, so
23 my landlord took me to court.
24 I'm a single parent with five kids. I
233
1 was in court for two and a half years. And
2 if I didn't have an attorney, I wouldn't be
3 able to testify for rights for tenants so
4 they can get an attorney today, after the
5 suffering that me and my kids went through.
6 My landlord was a police officer who
7 harassed me and my family. My daughter
8 dropped from As and Bs to Ds and Fs because
9 she was afraid of going to a shelter. We
10 started the Right to Counsel Coalition in
11 2012. We won; it took us three years, we won
12 it. After we won it, 84 percent of the
13 tenants got to stay in their homes because
14 they had legal representation. Evictions
15 went down 40 percent, and landlords stopped
16 suing, taking tenants to court by less than
17 30 percent.
18 Over 20 cities, states and counties
19 have passed RTC laws since we won in 2017.
20 Westchester County passed RTC last year.
21 Right now over 175,000 tenants
22 statewide are facing eviction right now.
23 We have a solution. We have a
24 solution. We are now working with over 100
234
1 statewide partners to pass statewide right to
2 counsel for all New Yorkers. Our bill is
3 S2721, introduced by Senator May, which would
4 guarantee the right to a free lawyer for all
5 tenants facing eviction across the state.
6 We're asking for $260 million in funding this
7 year to begin implementing the right to
8 counsel.
9 Two hundred sixty million is going to
10 enable a wholesale change in our courts.
11 It's going to allow tens of thousands more
12 tenants to be represented. It is going to
13 equip attorneys to fully litigate their cases
14 and help ensure long-term housing stability
15 for tenants. It's going to transform the
16 workplace conditions for legal providers and
17 help us to compete nationally, attracting the
18 next generation of civil legal talent to
19 New York State. It will support organizers
20 who are working hard to ensure tenants know
21 what their rights are.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
23 And just a reminder, everybody, your
24 full remarks -- your written submitted
235
1 testimony is available on the websites. So
2 not to worry if you run out of time.
3 Next, Michael McKee.
4 MR. McKEE: Good afternoon, and thank
5 you for the invitation to testify. My name
6 is Michael McKee, and I'm the treasurer of
7 the Tenants Political Action Committee.
8 I want to talk about three things.
9 First, I want to commend a new bill to you.
10 Just recently Senator Cordell Cleare and
11 Assemblymember Emily Gallagher introduced a
12 bill to create a new social housing
13 development authority. This will be a new
14 state agency to create and manage and
15 maintain genuinely and permanently affordable
16 housing. It is a chance to change the
17 conversation, to get away from the tired
18 narrative that the only way we can build
19 housing is to bribe the private sector to do
20 it and to give them subsidies to build
21 market-rate housing, and in return we get a
22 little bit of supposedly affordable housing.
23 For 25 years I have heard Andrea
24 Stewart-Cousins, including before she was
236
1 elected to the Senate, when she was a member
2 of the Westchester County Board of
3 Legislators, say "We need a new Mitchell-Lama
4 program." Well, this is it.
5 And we urge you to take this bill
6 seriously. It is not pie in the sky. It's a
7 very serious piece of legislation, and I want
8 to commend Senator Cleare and
9 Assemblymember Gallagher.
10 Secondly, I want to talk about the
11 housing package that is being cooked up at a
12 leadership level, supposedly to go into the
13 budget. From what we have learned about it,
14 this housing package is totally unacceptable.
15 I am speaking not only for Tenants PAC, I am
16 speaking for the entire statewide tenant
17 movement, including Housing Justice for All.
18 Number one, the bill includes
19 apparently an unacceptable version of
20 good-cause eviction.
21 Number two, it includes another
22 iteration of the failed 421-a program with
23 yet another numerical moniker, although it
24 looks to me like the Governor might be
237
1 running at the end of the alphabet.
2 Finally, and most egregiously, it
3 includes the CHIP/REBNY vacancy reset bill,
4 which is a new form of vacancy decontrol. It
5 is not about the 10,000 apartments that
6 landlords are holding off the market,
7 claiming that they cannot afford to renovate
8 them. It would put a target on every
9 rent-stabilized tenant's back who has been in
10 occupancy for 10 years or longer. It took us
11 25 years to repeal vacancy decontrol; we are
12 not about to sit silent while it gets
13 reimposed.
14 Finally, I want to call your attention
15 to problems with the implementation of the
16 ETPA-Upstate New York. Kingston and now
17 Newburgh have opted into the system. There
18 are other municipalities in the pipeline.
19 What happened in Kingston was a disgrace. In
20 my written testimony I have a reference to
21 the chronicle I wrote about this called
22 "Lessons from Kingston, New York." It's on
23 our website. I urge you to read it. And I
24 urge the two Housing Committees to do
238
1 oversight hearings about what's going on
2 here.
3 Thank you very much.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
5 We go to Assemblymember Rosenthal.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Thank you.
7 And thank you all for all your great
8 work in keeping tenants in their homes,
9 homeowners in their homes, and just eking
10 every -- using every penny that you get. And
11 we're going to fight hard to get more for
12 you.
13 I wanted to ask Mr. McKee if you could
14 elaborate about the bill that you mentioned
15 earlier.
16 MR. McKEE: The vacancy reset bill?
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Yes.
18 MR. McKEE: Yes. This bill was
19 drafted by CHIP, the Community Housing
20 Improvement Program. It's lately been taken
21 over by REBNY, the Real Estate Board of
22 New York. I mean, REBNY has a lot more
23 credibility in Albany.
24 It's a very dangerous bill. It would
239
1 reimpose a form of vacancy decontrol. It's a
2 wolf in sheep's clothing -- it's a classic
3 wolf in sheep's clothing. And as I said, it
4 would apply not just to New York City and the
5 three suburban counties, it would apply to
6 any future municipality that opts into
7 ETPA-Upstate New York.
8 This bill would put a target on the
9 backs of long-term residential tenants,
10 anyone who's been in occupancy for 10 years
11 or longer. We saw this during the 25 years
12 that vacancy decontrol was in effect when
13 landlords had an incentive to get people out.
14 They had an incentive to harass people and
15 evict them because they could get a
16 deregulated apartment.
17 This would allow them to do the same
18 thing. And it's simply not thinkable that
19 the Legislature would really be thinking
20 about going down this road.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: I took a
22 quick look at it earlier. You know, we saw a
23 lot of abuse with MCIs and IAIs over the
24 years that we mostly fixed in the 2019 HSTPA.
240
1 But isn't there part of this bill that
2 calls for doing this but with very little
3 oversight?
4 MR. McKEE: Yes. I mean, if you were
5 going to consider as part of a package
6 increasing the amount that owners could spend
7 on renovating an apartment upon vacancy, that
8 would be one thing as long as you were doing
9 it within the framework of the rent
10 recognition regulation system.
11 If you want to amend the individual
12 apartment improvement formula as part of an
13 overall package that would give a greater
14 allowance to landlords who want to fix up
15 those vacant apartments, as long as that's
16 done within the framework of the rent
17 regulation system and it does not allow
18 landlords to reset the rent at market, then
19 that would not be as objectionable.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Okay, that's
21 very helpful. Thank you.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: To the Senate.
23 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Thanks.
24 Just I guess to continue -- I'll start
241
1 where my colleague left off, just to say, you
2 know, I think we've all seen the advocacy
3 agendas of many organizations this year and
4 last year, including, you know, CHIP and
5 REBNY, the ones that you mentioned. But, you
6 know, there's not, to my knowledge, any
7 particular bill that's being cooked up right
8 now that includes, you know, the package that
9 you mentioned that is being -- you know, I
10 think "cooked up" was your term at the --
11 MR. McKEE: We only know what we hear,
12 Senator. We don't -- we're not privy to
13 what's going on behind closed doors.
14 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Okay. I'm just --
15 since that has been articulated on the record
16 here, I'll just articulate my perspective,
17 which is there is not at this point a bill
18 that's being cooked up that I'm aware of that
19 includes the elements that you referred to.
20 But -- which I guess should be comforting to
21 you.
22 I think -- you know, just to say --
23 I'll just -- in the interests of time I'll
24 just say I agree very strongly that we should
242
1 not have a process where we fight for large
2 amounts of money for really essential
3 services for homeowners and tenants and then
4 in January it's announced that those numbers
5 are zero and then we spend about 80 days or
6 so returning to the previous numbers. And
7 then you all have to wonder if that cycle
8 will be successful each time.
9 It is odd, particularly this year with
10 respect to HOPP, because the Executive Budget
11 had started having a baseline of $20 million
12 previously. So -- but just where -- you
13 know, we are very attentive to the issues
14 that arise from that process. And we're
15 going to be working to ensure that we, you
16 know, fully fund these programs.
17 But -- and just thank you all for
18 being very effective at using that money for
19 its intended purpose. We really appreciate
20 it. But I'll stop there.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
22 We go to Assemblywoman
23 Chandler-Waterman.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
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1 Thank you, Chair.
2 I appreciate your advocacy for the
3 most vulnerable population, especially Black
4 and brown communities, seniors, individuals
5 living with mental health conditions.
6 But Jacob, Legal Services New York
7 City. Deed theft, right, with our Black and
8 brown and our older adults. Seniors
9 experience deed theft and the burden of proof
10 falls on the seniors to prove that the person
11 who scammed them and the person who acquired
12 the property unlawfully were in
13 collaboration -- like they knew each other,
14 they knew about it.
15 In your expert opinion, what needs to
16 be done or is currently in place to support
17 our older adults who are being preyed on?
18 Because I know you mentioned deed theft.
19 MR. INWALD: So these are really tough
20 cases. There was some legislation that was
21 passed and signed, which I referenced that
22 the Governor signed at the end of last year,
23 that makes some improvements to the process.
24 But all of these cases first of all represent
244
1 situations where someone was trying to avert
2 foreclosure. Right? And had they reached
3 members of the HOPP network, they would never
4 have fallen for these scams. So that's the
5 most important thing.
6 And then this is also the network that
7 actually represents those homeowners to
8 restore their title. But these are very
9 resource-intensive and difficult cases. So
10 every case -- every fact pattern is
11 different, and the scams are constantly
12 evolving. So I can't necessarily, you know,
13 talk about the burden of proof in one
14 particular type of instance because they're
15 constantly, you know, changing in light of
16 what's going on and --
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN: We
18 can talk offline more about it.
19 MR. INWALD: Sure, I'd be happy to
20 talk to you more about that. Probably more
21 than you would ever want to hear.
22 (Laughter.)
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
24 Okay. Legal Aid Services -- that's Legal Aid
245
1 Society, right?
2 MR. INWALD: Legal Services NYC. And
3 we serve all five boroughs.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN: So
5 I'm talking about Legal Services Access?
6 MS. ZIMNY: The Access Alliance.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
8 Alliance, right. That's -- the Legal Aid
9 Society falls under you, or no?
10 MS. ZIMNY: So Legal Aid Society of
11 Northeastern New York is a member of the
12 Access Alliance.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
14 Okay. And do you all deal with mental health
15 supportive housing and support of those who
16 are going through that process?
17 MS. ZIMNY: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear
18 you.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
20 Mental health supportive housing, do you have
21 jurisdiction or support in that area, of
22 helping community members fill out the
23 application to get support, like Form HRA
24 2210E? You know, family members are having a
246
1 lot of issues, when their loved ones are in a
2 mental health facility, getting that form
3 filled out because they think it's too much
4 paperwork in the hospitals.
5 So we're trying to figure out what
6 support can be given or have you been giving
7 to those particular families and those living
8 with mental health conditions?
9 MS. ZIMNY: We have many different
10 member programs, and so I'd love to talk to
11 you more offline about that.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
13 Okay, thank you so much.
14 And we want to make sure that they are
15 getting the supportive housing that's needed,
16 and how we could build a plan to make sure
17 that families are included in anything.
18 Because, you know, in order for them to
19 really recover, they need that support from
20 their families. And family members need to
21 know how to advocate, especially when they're
22 hospitalized. And they need to have
23 sustainable housing. If you don't have
24 housing, you don't have food, you don't have
247
1 shelter, how can you really thrive in the
2 community?
3 So thank you all so much for your
4 work, and I look forward to working with you,
5 especially on these topics. Thank you.
6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
7 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Senator Jackson.
8 SENATOR JACKSON: So first I want to
9 thank you all for coming in. You are
10 extremely important for all of the people
11 that are in court and having attorneys
12 represent them. Right to counsel should be
13 for everyone going into the courts.
14 And so to the young man who fought the
15 system and you're still alive and strong, let
16 me just say that you have a lot --
17 MR. McKEE: Flattery will get you
18 everywhere, Senator.
19 (Laughter.)
20 SENATOR JACKSON: You have a lot of
21 people behind you in order to -- for what
22 you're doing.
23 So I want to ask Mike, Mike, what do
24 you consider the definition of good-cause
248
1 eviction?
2 MR. McKEE: A definition of good-cause
3 eviction?
4 SENATOR JACKSON: Yes. Because I
5 asked the commissioner about did she support
6 good-cause.
7 And so I'm asking you, what is your
8 definition as a housing expert?
9 MR. McKEE: First of all, all it is,
10 ultimately, is a defense. It is a defense to
11 an unfair eviction or an unfair rent
12 increase. If a tenant is brave enough -- an
13 unregulated tenant is brave enough to stay
14 and fight.
15 And we know from experience -- I mean,
16 organizers are always telling tenants: Do
17 not self-evict. And unfortunately, many of
18 them do because they just either are too
19 afraid or they can't get a lawyer or they
20 don't understand their rights.
21 So to have the real estate lobby
22 characterize this as universal rent control
23 or "lease for life" is so hypocritical and so
24 nonsensical.
249
1 But the version that we understand is
2 being discussed -- because the Governor has
3 strongly opposed this bill ever since she
4 became Governor -- and the Legislature has
5 for five years in a row failed to pass it,
6 leaving half the tenants in this state living
7 in unregulated apartments with no defenses of
8 any kind to unfair evictions or unfair rent
9 increases.
10 A valid form of good-cause eviction
11 must be mandatory, not local option. It's
12 absurd to expect that upstate municipalities
13 are going to have to do this by local option.
14 And this whole formula that some staff member
15 cooked up last year about a portfolio size --
16 that, you know, a landlord who owns fewer
17 than X number of apartments would not be
18 covered by good-cause -- is a loophole so big
19 you could drive a truck through it.
20 Those are unacceptable provisions. It
21 has to be mandatory, not local option, and it
22 has to be for specific units. Our bill,
23 which is sponsored by Senator Salazar --
24 SENATOR JACKSON: I want to get in one
250
1 more question. Thank you --
2 MR. McKEE: -- would exempt one and --
3 two- and three-family homes --
4 SENATOR JACKSON: I need to get one
5 more question in.
6 MR. McKEE: -- owner-occupied.
7 SENATOR JACKSON: So, Jacob, you
8 represent Legal Services of New York. Do all
9 of the tenants going into court have counsel,
10 yes or no? And what can we do to make sure
11 that they get it?
12 MR. INWALD: I'm talking about --
13 SENATOR JACKSON: Talk into the mic,
14 please.
15 MR. INWALD: I'm sorry, I can't
16 speak -- I'm talking about the homeownership
17 services we provide, so I'm not talking about
18 tenants.
19 But it's a continuum of services. So
20 some cases we'll represent them for the
21 settlement conference phase. Sometimes we'll
22 just be helping people put in an answer so
23 that their defenses are preserved. And in
24 some instances we're taking on full-on
251
1 representation defensively in a foreclosure
2 case, and in other cases affirmative
3 litigation.
4 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
6 Assemblywoman Kelles.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: I wanted to
8 thank you all. Thank you for coming,
9 committing to this. And Randy, thank you so
10 much for sharing your story.
11 It seems -- and there's another piece
12 that irks me a bit about this, is that we
13 have a pilot. It has been proven to be
14 successful. And now not providing it to the
15 rest of the state is the ultimate in
16 inequity. And it is, I think, inhumane and
17 unconscionable, since we already have the
18 data that it works.
19 So thank you so much for coming.
20 MR. DILLARD: Thank you.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: And I just
22 wanted to add, thank you so much, Michael,
23 for the definition for good-cause.
24 The one thing that I wanted to add
252
1 that bothers me about -- as it seems to
2 bother you -- is that it is being used to say
3 that now no one can evict for any reason. It
4 has nothing to do with that. It is about,
5 you know, the raising -- the unrealistic
6 raising of rents, right, like evicting
7 without cause.
8 If someone breaks their lease by doing
9 something in that lease agreement that they
10 agreed not to do, that is still cause to
11 evict. And those are being conflated, and I
12 despise that. So thank you so much for
13 saying it.
14 I just wanted to give you an
15 opportunity, though, to talk a bit about
16 the -- your comments about a new
17 Mitchell-Lama program, social housing. I
18 want to take that phrase back, because it is
19 so important that we create diversity of
20 housing. We talk about it all the time. Why
21 would we not allow for social housing so
22 well, since it has worked so astoundingly
23 well throughout the world. And there's this
24 amazing bill, as you described, from Cleare
253
1 and Gallagher.
2 Can you talk a little bit about the
3 proponents -- the pieces of it that you think
4 really stand out that are so critical?
5 MR. McKEE: Well, thank you,
6 Ms. Kelles.
7 And I just want to -- I think this is
8 perhaps the first time we've seen each other
9 since we were in Vienna together.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: I think so too.
11 MR. McKEE: And both chairs of the
12 Housing Committee were with us.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Blew my mind.
14 MR. McKEE: We spent a week in Vienna
15 studying their social housing. I would urge
16 any member of the Legislature -- maybe it's
17 time to organize another trip to Vienna with
18 more of you joining us. It was amazing what
19 we saw. I mean -- beautiful --
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Forty-four
21 percent of the community --
22 MR. McKEE: -- public housing built
23 more than a hundred years ago, still in
24 operation. And still run by the City of
254
1 Vienna. And 62 percent of Viennese live in
2 some form of social housing. Rents are low,
3 even market rents. The private landlords
4 have to compete with the social housing, so
5 market rents tend to be fairly low.
6 I mean, 600 euros is a normal rent in
7 Vienna. That's like, what, $650? Something
8 like that.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: And this bill
10 is modeled after that, what we --
11 MR. McKEE: Yeah. I mean, and it's
12 mixed-income. Only the most affluent
13 Viennese are not eligible for social housing.
14 This is one of the reasons it's so popular.
15 It's like Social Security: Everybody gets
16 it. This is why the Republicans have not
17 been able to do in Social Security.
18 So I strongly believe in mixed-income
19 housing as long as the balance is correct and
20 you have enough housing for really low-income
21 people who need it the most.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
23 To the Senate. Brian, you have
24 anybody else?
255
1 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Next we have
2 Senator -- Senator Brisport's up next.
3 SENATOR BRISPORT: Thank you,
4 Mr. Chair.
5 And thank you to our panelists for
6 being here today.
7 I have a couple of questions for
8 Mr. Inwald and also Mr. McKee from Tenants
9 PAC.
10 Mr. Inwald, first up, do you come
11 across any tenants in 421-a apartments who
12 are being overcharged on their rent, despite
13 the state subsidizing the real estate sector?
14 MR. INWALD: So I'm not the right
15 person to answer questions about tenants
16 because the practice that I oversee is really
17 all about representing and preserving
18 homeownership. So --
19 SENATOR BRISPORT: Okay. Okay. I
20 only have questions for Mr. McKee, then.
21 (Laughter.)
22 SENATOR BRISPORT: Thank you.
23 Mr. McKee, on brokers' fees, could you
24 tell us a bit more about the impact of
256
1 brokers' fees on tenants? In New York City
2 we hear horror stories from our constituents
3 all the time.
4 MR. McKEE: I assume you're talking
5 about your bill that would prohibit landlords
6 from passing brokers' fees on to tenants?
7 SENATOR BRISPORT: Yes.
8 MR. McKEE: I mean, this is a
9 peculiarity of the New York City rental
10 market. It is absurd that tenants who are
11 looking for an apartment have to pay a broker
12 who's hired by the landlord.
13 And there was an article in the New
14 York Times, what, three days ago, four days
15 ago? Something like that. The average cost
16 of moving into an apartment now, including
17 the broker's fee and one month's rent and
18 security deposit, is like $10,000. I mean,
19 that's just a huge impediment to people who
20 are looking for a place to live. And it's
21 unfair. It's just absurd that tenants should
22 have to pay a broker unless the tenant hires
23 the broker. Period.
24 SENATOR BRISPORT: Yeah. Period.
257
1 And on the good-cause eviction bill,
2 could you please describe what happened in
3 the City of Kingston after they opted into
4 ETPA and what the problems were with the lack
5 of enforcement --
6 MR. McKEE: Oh, thank you for asking
7 that, Senator. I could go on forever. I
8 urge you all to read my chronicle, "Lessons
9 from Kingston."
10 Once Kingston opted in -- we were not
11 prepared for this. We should have been, but
12 it was a good lesson. We should have started
13 tenant education months before. Because once
14 the City of Kingston opted in, there was mass
15 confusion for three or four months.
16 Landlords went wild with, you know,
17 misconduct. Even though rents were legally
18 frozen until the new Kingston Rent Guidelines
19 Board was constituted and could vote on rent
20 adjustments, landlords were demanding that
21 tenants sign illegal leases and pay illegal
22 rent increases.
23 Tenants at a seven-unit building who
24 should have been protected by ETPA were
258
1 evicted, and the building was emptied by a
2 speculator who bought it and told the tenants
3 he was going to flip it for a million
4 dollars. And they were evicted even though
5 they were technically protected by ETPA as
6 well as the Kingston good-cause eviction law,
7 which at that point was in full force and
8 effect. And they were evicted because they
9 couldn't get a lawyer. They couldn't get a
10 lawyer. And all seven families -- six of
11 them Black -- are gone. One of them is now
12 in a shelter, one's in a Section 8 building,
13 and one moved to Albany. I don't know what
14 happened to the others.
15 We're seeing the same kind of illegal
16 behavior in Newburgh, where we're seeing
17 tenants reporting that landlords -- even
18 though Newburgh rents are frozen, landlords
19 are hitting them with demands for signing
20 leases with a big rent increase.
21 And the agency, DHCR, does nothing.
22 There's no enforcement at all. Which is why
23 I'm suggesting that the two Housing
24 Committees have an oversight hearing about
259
1 this.
2 It's going to be the same problem in
3 every other future municipality that opts in.
4 SENATOR BRISPORT: Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
6 We go to Assemblyman Brown.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: Thank you,
8 Chair.
9 Just one quick comment. I just
10 appreciate all your help with the Homeowner
11 Protection Program. I'm from Suffolk County.
12 Our county is one of the hardest-hit when it
13 comes to foreclosures. And in particular,
14 Touro Law School has a clinic to help support
15 your efforts. So I just wanted to say thank
16 you.
17 MR. INWALD: Thank you. And Touro is
18 actually part of the HOPP network.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN KEITH BROWN: Yes. Thank
20 you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Back to the
22 Senate.
23 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Senator Salazar.
24 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you.
260
1 Michael, could you speak more about
2 specifically -- you know, you talked about a
3 loophole, right, so large that you could
4 drive a truck through it. What is the risk?
5 Like what is actually lost? If you don't
6 mind elaborating.
7 MR. McKEE: No.
8 SENATOR SALAZAR: Failing to protect
9 the integrity of the bill.
10 MR. McKEE: Right.
11 Well, your bill defines it the way it
12 should be. Your bill would subject every
13 unit, every rental unit in the state that is
14 not rent-regulated in some way -- public
15 housing, Mitchell-Lama, whatever -- to the
16 good-cause eviction law. And you would
17 exempt two- and three-unit owner-occupied
18 buildings, which is appropriate.
19 But some staff member last year cooked
20 up a formula that a landlord who owns fewer
21 than X number of apartments would be exempt
22 from the law. I mean, this is the kind of
23 things landlords -- some landlords are really
24 good at manipulating. And with the Governor
261
1 now making the LLC registry not available to
2 the public, it's going to make it harder for
3 tenants to even know who their landlord is.
4 So the correct way to do this is the
5 way it's done in your bill, to specify
6 specifically that it's going to apply to
7 these units.
8 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you.
9 And then I have a very different
10 question for Christie. You mentioned the
11 End Toxic House Flipping Act, S1569A -- thank
12 you, I appreciate that -- in the context of
13 potentially generating revenue.
14 How else could that bill help
15 alleviate and address problems that are
16 impacting the housing market in communities
17 in New York City?
18 MS. PEALE: Well, certainly first from
19 a preservation perspective, if we can deter
20 purchasers who are just looking to, you know,
21 slap a coat of paint on a property and flip
22 it for, you know, 100, 200 percent profit,
23 thereby evicting families from affordable
24 rental units, you know, we certainly save a
262
1 lot in preserving owner-occupant and their
2 tenants that are most likely receiving
3 below-market rents through an owner-occupant
4 landlord. So that's one piece.
5 And then I think that what we'd like
6 to see is if there are short-term flips, that
7 a percentage of that upside be returned to
8 the community, either in the form of, you
9 know, what we're all dreaming about, new
10 affordable homeownership, whether that's
11 through Mitchell-Lama or other multifamily
12 affordable home ownership, such as subsidized
13 co-ops, community land trusts. I imagine
14 those would be a piece of a social housing
15 approach.
16 But we're really interested in
17 creating new affordable homeownership supply,
18 as a part of the fact that we know we've lost
19 tens of thousands of BIPOC homeowners across
20 the city through the foreclosure crisis,
21 through gentrification, through a lot of
22 speculative pressure and all the deed theft
23 schemes that Jay mentioned.
24 So there's a lot that we're fighting
263
1 against and we're really optimistic about the
2 way revenue could help us address it.
3 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
5 Assemblywoman Levenberg.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEVENBERG: Thank you so
7 much to all of you for your testimony and for
8 all of the good work you do.
9 And Mr. Dillard, thank you for all
10 your struggles and your testimony as well. I
11 appreciate hearing that.
12 I just wanted to agree with the idea
13 of going to Vienna, number one. I think that
14 sounds great. And I appreciate your
15 clarifying some of the social housing pieces
16 from the Gallagher legislation.
17 I did want to just follow up with some
18 of the questions about good-cause to some of
19 the legal services teams because, you know,
20 out of curiosity. You know, we hear a lot of
21 pushback obviously about what would happen in
22 the legal processes because of good-cause. I
23 do support this legislation, but I'm
24 wondering, again, what the other, you know,
264
1 perspective is in terms of just taking a lot
2 of time to get through the process.
3 And if you could clarify some of that
4 for us, I think it would be helpful, because
5 I'm hopeful that it's not the lengthy process
6 that we're hearing about from the other side,
7 I guess you could say.
8 MS. PEALE: Again, you have a lot of
9 folks here that spend a lot of time defending
10 against the state process of foreclosure in
11 the State Supreme Court. So I would love Jay
12 to recommend some resources.
13 MR. INWALD: What I can say is my
14 colleagues who work with rental housing, I'd
15 be happy to connect you offline and I don't
16 want to sort of overstep my bounds and sort
17 of, you know, go beyond my lanes, which is
18 sort of outside of my expertise.
19 So -- but I'd be happy to connect you.
20 We have a huge amount of resources on that
21 subject. It's just that I'm not that
22 resource, so --
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEVENBERG: I gotcha. I
24 gotcha. Okay.
265
1 I guess -- I guess that's -- I mean, I
2 don't know, Mr. McKee, if you wanted to
3 comment on it then, you know, from -- from
4 what you know. Mr. McKee?
5 MR. McKEE: Well, I don't think it
6 would have a huge impact on the court system.
7 What it would do is give unregulated tenants,
8 which is roughly 1.6 million tenants
9 statewide -- including tenants in rural
10 areas, who are never going to have access to
11 a lawyer, and where landlord/tenant cases are
12 often heard by justices of the peace who know
13 nothing about landlord/tenant law.
14 It gives people a defense. And if
15 you're brave enough to stay and fight and
16 say, No, I'm not going to pay that rent
17 increase, or No, you can't evict me for no
18 reason, that tenant will have a defense that
19 they don't now have.
20 I mean, it's essential to give people
21 the right to counsel. That's huge. And it's
22 very important. But if you don't give people
23 an affirmative defense, all a lawyer's going
24 to be able to do is buy some time.
266
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEVENBERG: Yeah. And
2 shout out to --
3 MR. McKEE: You know, Kathy Hochul
4 says we've got more tenant protections in
5 New York State and therefore we don't need
6 any more. Well, I'm sorry, half the tenants
7 in this state live in unregulated apartments,
8 and they are not protected in any way.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEVENBERG: Thank you
10 very much. Appreciate it.
11 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Senator May.
12 SENATOR MAY: Thank you.
13 And thank you, all of you, for the
14 great work you do and your advocacy. And
15 Randy, for your work on right to counsel.
16 I'm proud to carry that bill.
17 I wanted to say first to Mike, if
18 going to Vienna is too far, we should go to
19 Montgomery County, Maryland, and see the
20 public developer model at work there, because
21 they've done some really great work with
22 mixed-income housing that people love living
23 in. And so I would love to have a trip down
24 there with you.
267
1 But on right to counsel, what I keep
2 hearing is that we don't have enough lawyers
3 to actually do the work that would need to be
4 done statewide. So I want to pick your
5 brains about how do we ramp up that pipeline
6 of attorneys who can be -- who can make a
7 program like that actually work statewide.
8 MS. ZIMNY: I think specifically from
9 the legal services point -- oh, sorry.
10 Thank you for the question.
11 And specifically from the point of the
12 Access Alliance, we are actively working with
13 all of our law school partners across the
14 state to create internships and fellowships
15 with law clerks, to get them interested in
16 the work that these organizations are doing
17 so that when they come out of law school
18 they're excited and ready to work within
19 these organizations.
20 Additionally, across the state we've
21 had to look at raising salaries to attract
22 qualified candidates. And so I think the
23 issue comes back to funding and to exercise
24 those relationships early within the law
268
1 schools.
2 MR. INWALD: And if I could just jump
3 in on that, sweeping funding from IOLA is not
4 going to help. I know that's beyond the
5 scope of this committee. But, you know,
6 there is a huge problem with pay parity for
7 legal services, so resolving that would be
8 really helpful.
9 MR. DILLARD: And that's why we're
10 asking for $260 million, because it would
11 help pay lawyers and to bring lawyers in.
12 And it would help pay organizers. And it
13 would help pay the office that we're getting
14 ready to open up to get started.
15 SENATOR MAY: Yeah, I was wondering
16 about that too, if there is an administrative
17 level that needs to be funded --
18 MR. DILLARD: Yes.
19 SENATOR MAY: -- and supported in
20 addition to just having enough attorneys to
21 do this. Everyone's nodding. Make the
22 record. Record, everybody is nodding. Okay,
23 great.
24 Thank you so much. And again, thanks
269
1 for your leadership on all of these issues.
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman
3 Burdick.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you,
5 Chair Weinstein.
6 And I want to thank each of the
7 panelists for the terrific work that you're
8 doing.
9 I should mention to Erica Zimny that
10 we really appreciate the coalition that
11 you've put together of legal services
12 statewide, and the Westchester County
13 delegation is certainly extremely supportive
14 of Legal Services of the Hudson Valley, which
15 I know is part of that alliance. So thank
16 you for that work.
17 I'm just going to ask the same
18 question I asked of the previous panel. I
19 don't know whether any of you had heard the
20 exchange with Commissioner Visnauskas about
21 the work that my Hudson Valley colleague Dana
22 Levenberg and I are doing about trying to do
23 something more on a statewide basis, and if
24 any of you might have any comments about it.
270
1 (No response.)
2 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Maybe you didn't
3 hear it.
4 MS. PEALE: I'm sorry, doing more --
5 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: So, you know,
6 it's really to try to -- it does not have
7 construction mandates. Instead, it provides
8 that municipalities need to come up with
9 something. They have to come up with a
10 housing plan. They have to assess need.
11 They have to take a look at mixed-use housing
12 along the income range and require something.
13 In a housing hearing back in December,
14 New York City said they're fine in putting
15 together a plan. They do that anyway. So it
16 seems that this can be done statewide, it
17 doesn't have to be centered in just New York
18 City or just upstate.
19 And so we would welcome your thoughts
20 and would be happy to provide that to you and
21 would appreciate your feedback and whether
22 you might support it.
23 Thank you.
24 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Senator Cleare.
271
1 SENATOR CLEARE: I want to thank all
2 of you for being here today and the work that
3 you're doing ongoing.
4 Mike McKee, I am a huge fan of all the
5 work that we've done together over the years.
6 This is a comment question. I don't
7 know if you were here when you heard about my
8 testimony. My district which I represent,
9 which includes Harlem and East Harlem and
10 El Barrio, aggressively gentrified. You
11 know, I feel like I'm fighting for the very
12 soul of my community, the exodus of Blacks
13 out of New York State, not just the city --
14 that have left the state not because they
15 wanted to, but because they could not afford
16 to live here. And it's continuing across the
17 city.
18 I would like to know if there's more
19 that we can do. And losing HPD, losing the
20 community preference battle a couple of weeks
21 ago, I just want to know what we can do to
22 preserve and protect and allow us to maintain
23 a diverse population in New York City. And
24 also for the work that you do.
272
1 I chair the Aging Committee. Very
2 concerned about our seniors who are getting
3 defrauded. And I think it's a despicable
4 crime. I think it's horrible. I sadly think
5 more people get away with it than don't. And
6 I'd like to know what we can do legislatively
7 to help those cases that are so long and so
8 arduous and take so much time and so many
9 resources -- as well as allow us to even look
10 back longer, and what can we do where there
11 are cases where this has happened?
12 Seniors, they don't have the strength
13 to fight. You don't even have to be a
14 senior. These cases wear people out. Even
15 in landlord/tenant court, they will wear you
16 out. When Mike McKee talks about folks in
17 Kingston, you know, not having a lawyer, that
18 makes a difference. Because even just to
19 take off from work to show up -- they know
20 that they can show up more than you.
21 What can we do?
22 MR. INWALD: Well, with one minute and
23 6 seconds --
24 SENATOR CLEARE: You can call me.
273
1 MR. INWALD: I would say, first of
2 all, preserving existing homeownership, which
3 is one of the reasons why I'm here, is
4 really, really key. Right?
5 There's no reason to lose the -- all
6 the talk about, you know, increasing the
7 housing stock and everything, when our
8 clients, if they're not represented by us and
9 they lose their homes to foreclosure, that is
10 the loss of affordable housing on several --
11 in several respects. And it actually feeds
12 gentrification, right? Because the people
13 buying these properties at auction are
14 private equity and speculative investors who
15 are not maintaining these as, you know,
16 community --
17 SENATOR CLEARE: I'm looking forward
18 to a conversation later, with recommendations
19 legislatively that we can --
20 MR. INWALD: Yeah, I'd be happy to
21 have a -- yeah.
22 SENATOR CLEARE: Yes, please.
23 MR. McKEE: I would recommend that you
24 put the 300,000 or so apartments that were
274
1 lost to vacancy decontrol back under
2 regulation. And which, for some reason, were
3 not included in the Housing Stability and
4 Tenant Protection Act. That's a substantial
5 chunk of the New York City and three county
6 housing stock, and it was not reregulated for
7 some reason.
8 SENATOR CLEARE: Thank you.
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
10 Senate?
11 SENATOR KAVANAGH: I think we have no
12 further questions.
13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Oh, we still
14 have -- that's just the Senate. We have a
15 couple of Assemblymembers.
16 Assemblywoman Lee.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEE: Thank everyone for
18 being here.
19 Just a question for Mike. You know,
20 there have been conversations around
21 including good-cause in the budget, but more
22 including it in intention but maybe not
23 naming it as good-cause. Does it make a
24 difference as long as protections are there?
275
1 Do you care that the name is there or not?
2 MR. McKEE: It depends on the kind of
3 protection.
4 I mean, the formulation that we've
5 been told that is being pursued by -- at a
6 leadership level, whether it's true or not,
7 that's what we are being told -- is
8 unacceptable. It's unenforceable. It would
9 not -- it would leave out 85 percent of
10 tenants in upstate New York. It would leave
11 out a substantial number of tenants living in
12 smaller buildings in New York City and in the
13 suburban counties. They would be without any
14 protections.
15 And we're simply not going to accept a
16 watered-down good-cause eviction. If you
17 can't give us a real good-cause-eviction
18 bill, no bill is better. We don't want a
19 screwed-up, watered-down bill that is not
20 going to work just so some legislators can
21 say "We passed good-cause."
22 I'm sorry, that may sound very blunt,
23 but I tend to be a very blunt person.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEE: But if it is in
276
1 its totality but not named that, that's okay,
2 is what -- you're okay with that?
3 MR. McKEE: (Sighing; chuckling.)
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEE: Okay. And then
5 this is just more of a comment, because I
6 represent a district that has a lot of -- a
7 large Asian community. And there's certainly
8 a lot of misinformation about what good-cause
9 is, and it gets propagated through, you know,
10 the Asian property owners and things like
11 that, when there are a lot of vulnerable
12 Asian tenants who would benefit greatly from
13 good-cause.
14 So just something that I'd like to
15 say, I'd like to just reemphasize for anyone
16 providing legal services, we need -- and
17 language services that are culturally
18 competent, please come to our communities.
19 We need that. And we need strong organizing
20 as well so that we can build that groundswell
21 of support for the tenant protections that
22 really do help so many vulnerable members of
23 the community -- but they get drowned out or
24 lost because of, you know, the language and
277
1 other issues.
2 Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 And to close out this panel,
5 Assemblyman Manktelow.
6 (Audio echo.)
7 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Thank you,
8 Chair.
9 Jacob, I want to say thank you for
10 everything HOPP does. I'm from the
11 130th District, Wayne County, up near
12 Ontario County, and you've done a lot of good
13 work there through your organization, so
14 thank you.
15 My second question, to Michael, if you
16 have a few minutes. I appreciate you being
17 blunt. I think you'd make a great
18 Assemblymember being blunt.
19 (Laughter.)
20 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: So you talked
21 a little bit about social housing. So a few
22 years ago I was in New York City; I've seen
23 housing in NYCHA, the city housing authority.
24 I've been overseas, I've seen housing, social
278
1 housing in different countries. I want to go
2 see Vienna.
3 When you talk about social housing,
4 how is that going to be different than some
5 of the housings that I've seen around the
6 world, and including New York City? What are
7 you going to do to make sure that doesn't
8 happen with this type of housing?
9 MR. McKEE: This is a very long
10 conversation, and we would have to go back to
11 the 1930s and what the federal government did
12 in establishing public housing and some of
13 the restrictions they put on it, including
14 how much you could spend to construct it.
15 Which is why so much of it is badly
16 constructed and has maintenance problems.
17 Social housing in other countries,
18 including France and Germany, is much
19 different: It's beautiful, it's
20 well-constructed, it's constructed at the
21 highest standards of construction. They hire
22 top architects to design it. It doesn't all
23 look like projects. It's a very different
24 approach.
279
1 And that's what we're talking about.
2 We're not talking about, you know,
3 monolithic, you know, buildings that are all
4 red brick and badly built and where the
5 government does not meet its obligations in
6 terms of funding for maintenance. I mean,
7 these are low-income people. You can't --
8 you can't run a building on the rent rolls in
9 public housing. You've got to have
10 subsidies.
11 And, you know, government at every
12 level, especially the federal government, you
13 know, just doesn't do what they should be
14 doing.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: So I'm glad
16 you brought up Germany. I spent three years
17 of my life there, and I've been in a lot of
18 that housing. And I agree with some of the
19 things you say, maybe not all of them.
20 But I'd love to spend a little time
21 with you on the side where we can spend a few
22 hours and really talk about this in depth,
23 because I want to see where you think we can
24 go, how we're going to fund it -- but more
280
1 so, how are we going to help the tenants that
2 are in those homes, in those rental units,
3 make that last long-term for them? Because
4 we can't constantly throw state or federal
5 dollars at that. We have to give them the
6 ability to work and to help self-fund the
7 rent.
8 So I'm in full support of talking with
9 you. I want to go to Vienna. Let's go see
10 these places and let's talk.
11 So thank you for your testimony, and
12 thank you all for being here this afternoon.
13 PANELISTS: Thank you.
14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
15 While we plan our field trip, I want to thank
16 you all for being here.
17 And I'm going to call on Panel C:
18 New York Building Congress; New York Housing
19 Conference; American Institute of Architects
20 New York; 32BJ SEIU; and Open New York.
21 (Pause.)
22 SENATOR KAVANAGH: So whenever you're
23 ready.
24 MS. WYLIE: Good afternoon,
281
1 Chairs Weinstein, Kavanaugh, Rosenthal and
2 members of the Senate and Assembly.
3 My name is Megan Wylie, and I am the
4 director of government relations at the
5 New york Building Congress. And I want to
6 thank you for allowing us to speak today
7 regarding the Legislature's efforts to create
8 a comprehensive plan in the FY 2025 budget to
9 address our state's current housing
10 affordability crisis.
11 The New York Building Congress
12 represents over 500 constituent organizations
13 comprising over 250,000 skilled tradespeople
14 and professionals dedicated to the growth and
15 prosperity of New York City and State.
16 With the lack of adequate affordable
17 housing stock, one of the biggest obstacles
18 to these goals, we applaud the Legislature's
19 eagerness to shape a housing package that
20 incorporates the diverse priorities of labor,
21 property owners and developers, third-party
22 stakeholders, the 46 percent of New Yorkers
23 who rent their homes, and those currently
24 struggling to find a place to call home.
282
1 The Building Congress has already
2 committed to working with a broad coalition
3 to take much-needed action once and for all.
4 We echo Governor Kathy Hochul's
5 proposal in the Executive Budget to extend
6 eligibility for the recently expired tax
7 incentive program and enact a newer and more
8 robust one to reinvigorate the development of
9 affordable housing.
10 We also support the Governor's
11 proposals to remove antiquated restrictions
12 on the FAR cap that hinder development,
13 streamline environmental reviews on
14 affordable housing projects, boost the
15 conversion of unused commercial space into
16 residential units, and incentivize new
17 opportunities for homeowners and tenants like
18 accessory dwelling units.
19 We respectfully request that you
20 consider these items to be included in any
21 plan put forth by the Legislature. We
22 believe the dire current statistics outlined
23 in our recent Construction Outlook Report
24 underscore this request.
283
1 New York's housing crisis went from
2 bad to worse when we lost the number-one
3 driver for residential housing development in
4 decades. While the program had its critics,
5 when 421-a expired in 2022 we saw a dramatic
6 drop in the construction of new residential
7 affordable housing. In New York City alone,
8 our annual projections for new units dropped
9 from 30,000 to just over 11,000. This
10 situation is unsustainable, and we are
11 counting on the Legislature to ensure a home
12 for every New Yorker.
13 In the Governor's Executive Budget she
14 introduced 485-x, a replacement program for
15 421-a. We believe this proposal has the
16 potential to provide a much-needed shot in
17 the arm for our statewide housing stock and
18 will address criticisms of previous incentive
19 programs.
20 485-x would allow the Department of
21 Housing Preservation and Development to
22 determine updated affordability indexes, and
23 includes extending the completion deadline
24 for vested projects that qualified for 421-a
284
1 benefits but failed to start construction
2 prior to the June 2022 deadline. This would
3 save over 33,000 rental units currently in
4 the pipeline. Extending the deadline is
5 appropriate to account for delays and
6 construction challenges due to the pandemic.
7 Furthermore, the Building Congress is
8 most importantly committed to supporting the
9 stipulation that makes the program dependent
10 on the Building and Construction Trades
11 Council and the Real Estate Board of New York
12 agreeing to a memorandum of understanding.
13 With member organizations across both
14 labor and development we are ready, willing,
15 and able to use our unique position to help
16 guide this program towards success. We have
17 the opportunity in the FY 2025 budget to
18 improve the lives of all New Yorkers, and we
19 owe it to our great state to meet this
20 crucial moment.
21 Thank you again for the opportunity to
22 testify. Sorry.
23 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Thank you.
24 I just don't want Assemblymember
285
1 Weinstein to hear that, you know, once she
2 left the room bedlam broke out, so.
3 (Laughter.)
4 MR. PASTREICH: All right. Thank you,
5 Committee Chairs Rosenthal, Kavanaugh and
6 Weinstein.
7 I'm here today because what I am is --
8 and very proud to be -- is the representative
9 of nearly 100,000 working New Yorkers,
10 members of SEIU Local 32BJ who call New York
11 home. They're not just the heart and soul of
12 the largest property service union, they're
13 also the working people, the essential
14 workers who are struggling to find affordable
15 housing within a reasonable commute to their
16 jobs.
17 That's the common thread you've heard
18 many times today, you will hear in coming
19 weeks from other labor leaders -- like DC37
20 and the hotel trades -- and you'll continue
21 to hear until a new housing paradigm is
22 established. Right now we have too few units
23 of affordable housing too far away from where
24 people work.
286
1 In years past, addressing the crisis
2 may have been too big a mountain to climb,
3 but I'm optimistic that if we take a
4 different route, a middle ground, that we can
5 collectively reach our common goal of
6 reaching a set of policies that works for
7 both tenants and workers.
8 First, we must recognize the problem.
9 New York City's housing crisis didn't appear
10 overnight. It's a result of years of new
11 housing construction failing to keep pace
12 with population and job growth. And it's a
13 problem that unfortunately has grown more
14 acute since the expiration in 2022 of 421-a,
15 the program which spurred a majority of the
16 new housing production in recent years.
17 From 2010 to 2020, New York City's
18 population increased by approximately
19 630,000 residents. The city gained a million
20 new jobs while its housing stock increased by
21 only 200,000 units. That discrepancy between
22 job growth and housing production meant that
23 for every job added, less than one in five
24 units of housing was created. That's
287
1 literally the definition of demand
2 overwhelming supply.
3 And as the New York Times said, the
4 housing availability is at a 50-year low.
5 And the result is exactly what you'd think:
6 Not enough housing to go around, and workers
7 being forced to travel long distances,
8 sometimes two hours, to live in the only
9 neighborhoods they can afford.
10 We need to produce hundreds of
11 thousands of housing units to meet the
12 projected half-million shortfall, and to do
13 that we need to create and reinvigorate
14 policies so we have tools to meet and
15 maintain the housing needs of working people
16 and all the residents.
17 Specifically, we believe there's a few
18 key actions that should be taken. The first
19 is to extend the project completion deadline
20 for 421-a and create new tax abatements for
21 rental housing construction. It's been
22 proven to increase supply, increase
23 affordability, and have labor standards to
24 ensure jobs and pay a living wage for
288
1 workers.
2 Second, we need to authorize tax
3 incentives benefits for converting unused
4 commercial property to affordable housing.
5 Third, we should lift the 12-FAR cap
6 to allow for greater housing density.
7 Fourth, we should enact strong tenant
8 protections to prevent arbitrary evictions,
9 including the ability to renew leases at
10 reasonable rent.
11 Fifth, we should establish a Housing
12 Access Voucher Program to provide immediate
13 rental assistance to avoid homelessness.
14 And sixth, provide a right to counsel.
15 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Thank you.
16 MS. DONOHUE: Good afternoon. I am
17 Bria Donohue, senior manager of government
18 affairs at AIA New York. We represent more
19 than 5,000 architects and design
20 professionals committed to positively
21 impacting the physical and social qualities
22 of our state.
23 Thank you, members of the joint
24 legislative budget committee, for the
289
1 opportunity to participate in today's
2 hearing.
3 To avoid being repetitive, I'm going
4 to focus my testimony today on office-to-
5 residential conversions. In order to
6 maximize the opportunity in front of us,
7 there are three key barriers that need to be
8 addressed to create a feasible pathway for
9 office to residential conversion.
10 First, AIA New York supports ELFA
11 Part Q to authorize New York City and the
12 New York State Urban Development Corporation
13 to allow for denser residential development.
14 Since 1961 there has been a cap on floor area
15 ratio in New York City which limits the size
16 of residential buildings to 12 times the size
17 of the lot on which they are built.
18 This presents a challenge for
19 conversion projects, because the FAR cap only
20 applies to residential buildings. Many
21 commercial buildings, however, are greater
22 than 12 FAR, so this cap serves as one of the
23 first impediments to office-to-residential
24 conversion projects.
290
1 Second, AIA New York supports ELFA
2 Part R to authorize tax incentive benefits
3 for converting commercial properties to
4 affordable housing.
5 Without government incentives,
6 conversion projects with affordable units are
7 effectively impossible. Conversion projects
8 are expensive to start with, and adding on
9 affordable units without government
10 assistance to offset costs is not feasible.
11 In this current economic climate where
12 interest rates and construction costs are
13 high, a new tax incentive program is
14 essential to producing housing in New York
15 City and creating an opportunity for the
16 inclusion of affordable units to be a
17 realistic option.
18 Third, AIA New York recommends
19 amending the date conversions are permitted
20 in the Multiple Dwelling Law from 1961 to
21 1990. By extending the date, approximately
22 120 million square feet of office space will
23 be eligible for conversion. This proposal is
24 needed to open the full-scale opportunities
291
1 for conversion projects.
2 Additionally, one of the many
3 challenges with conversion projects is that
4 buildings are often not entirely empty and
5 it's often too costly to buy or wait out
6 tenants' leases. For buildings built before
7 1961 this is not an issue, and conversions
8 can begin with tenants in units. However,
9 for buildings built after 1961, the Multiple
10 Dwelling Law prohibits conversions beginning
11 with a single tenant in place. Therefore,
12 the date extension is essential to remedying
13 this roadblock.
14 Additionally, AIA New York is
15 supportive of the policies to create a
16 replacement for 421-a, extend the completion
17 date for 421-a projects, and create a pathway
18 to legalize basement apartments included in
19 Governor Hochul's Executive Budget, as well
20 as legislation to encourage transit-oriented
21 development and legalize accessory dwelling
22 units.
23 Thank you again for the opportunity to
24 testify today and for your consideration of
292
1 AIA New York's budget requests. Our full
2 testimony has been submitted for your review,
3 and I welcome any questions you may have.
4 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Thank you.
5 MS. FEE: Good afternoon. I'm
6 Rachel Fee, executive director of the
7 New York Housing Conference. Thank you for
8 this opportunity to testify.
9 Last year I spoke in support of
10 statewide zoning action to boost supply and
11 improve affordability. We still believe
12 New York needs to adopt a housing supply
13 framework including transit-oriented
14 development, tax incentives to spur
15 development, and rental assistance to prevent
16 homelessness.
17 New York's housing vacancy rate has
18 dropped to the lowest in decades. Finding an
19 affordable home in New York City and in much
20 of New York State is nearly impossible. The
21 Legislature should pass a budget with
22 policies to encourage housing supply and with
23 support for the lowest-income renters. All
24 policies requested by the City of New York to
293
1 help them address the city's housing crisis
2 should be granted.
3 Without a 421-a replacement, the
4 city's local zoning authority is undermined
5 and affordable housing development is only
6 viable in the lowest-income neighborhoods,
7 letting wealthy, resource-rich communities
8 off the hook.
9 Projects that went through public
10 review and were negotiated by New York City's
11 City Council are also undermined. And Mayor
12 Adams' City of Yes citywide zoning text
13 amendment to add housing in every
14 neighborhood is also undermined without a new
15 rental tax abatement. And the City of Yes
16 won't add much rental housing at all.
17 We support replacing 421-a with a
18 tax abatement that requires affordable
19 housing with rents affordable to low-income
20 New Yorkers. We support a state Housing
21 Access Voucher Program to prevent
22 homelessness and help New Yorkers afford
23 rent. We support linking aid to renters to
24 adding supply, to ensure housing access. For
294
1 example, 485-x could require low-income
2 housing in the highest-rent neighborhoods,
3 where it could be cross-subsidized. And it
4 could allow setting rents affordable to
5 voucher-holders to give them access
6 elsewhere.
7 Outside of New York City, the
8 Governor's Pro-Housing Community designation
9 can be used to reward communities that add
10 housing with a formula that increases HAVP.
11 While we need to build more housing,
12 we must also ensure continued investment in
13 our housing stock and support for renters
14 falling behind in rent, including in public
15 housing. Arrears in affordable housing
16 continue to be significant. A third of
17 renters in affordable housing owing more than
18 two months in rent were identified in a
19 sample of 52,000 units of affordable housing
20 we analyzed.
21 Limitations for improvements in
22 rent-stabilized buildings should be
23 revisited. With high interest rates and
24 rising operating costs, it's important that
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1 this housing stock remains financially sound
2 and in good repair.
3 We're pleased Governor Hochul has
4 taken the first steps towards regulating
5 discriminatory practices in insurance, but
6 more must be done.
7 While addressing housing policy is
8 challenging, the divided Congress just passed
9 an expansion for the Low-Income Housing Tax
10 Credit in the house, so we think here in
11 New York the Legislature and the Executive
12 can find compromises to our housing crisis.
13 Thank you.
14 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Thank you.
15 MS. GRAY: Thank you, Chairs Kavanagh
16 and Rosenthal. My name is Annemarie Gray.
17 I'm the executive director of Open New York,
18 an independent grassroots pro-housing
19 nonprofit with hundreds of volunteer members
20 across the state.
21 New York's housing affordability
22 crisis is rooted in the fact that we simply
23 do not build enough homes. Displacement,
24 exclusion, tenant harassment and homelessness
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1 are all exacerbated by our dire housing
2 shortage. Homeownership is out of reach for
3 everyone but the wealthiest. Landlords know
4 that renters have far too few options.
5 Frankly, your landlord should always
6 be aware that you can find another apartment.
7 We have the opposite. Nearly 1.4 percent of
8 apartments, as many people have said, in
9 New York City are vacant and available for
10 rent. That is the lowest in over 50 years.
11 Not only are workers from doormen to
12 janitors to architects to carpenters seeing
13 their industries impacted by the lack of
14 construction, but working people across the
15 state don't have enough options to live near
16 jobs and spend hours commuting to work -- or
17 just leave New York entirely.
18 The proposals in the Governor's
19 Executive Budget are positive steps to
20 introduce new incentives for pro-housing
21 communities, advance housing projects on
22 state-owned land, and revive tax incentive
23 tools in New York City to build mixed-income
24 housing in well-resourced communities.
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1 However, these proposals do not go nearly far
2 enough.
3 We need an "all of the above" approach
4 to housing. We need incentives, we need
5 subsidies, we need vouchers, we need tax
6 tools, we need tenant protection measures to
7 help people facing pressures right now. And
8 critically, we need state-level zoning and
9 land use reforms that ensure that all corners
10 of the state are building more homes.
11 Unlike many other states, New York
12 allows local governments absolute power to
13 ban housing growth, which perpetuates
14 patterns of segregation and exclusion and
15 worsens our housing crisis each year. The
16 Legislature must come to the table with
17 strong solutions. This will require a
18 multiyear commitment from all levels of
19 government, but we can take meaningful steps
20 this year to build the foundation and clear
21 away major hurdles to building housing in a
22 more affordable way.
23 The Faith-Based Affordable Housing
24 Act, which empowers religious organizations
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1 to develop affordable housing on their
2 properties and includes proposals to reform
3 environmental review practices and
4 single-stair building design, is an important
5 start that we can do this year.
6 We need our state leaders at every
7 level of government to pass reforms that
8 build more homes of all types this year, next
9 year, and every single year for the
10 foreseeable future.
11 Thank you.
12 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Thank you.
13 So we're going to begin with
14 Senator Myrie.
15 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
16 And thank you to the panel for your
17 patience in waiting today.
18 My first question is directed at
19 Manny. Firstly, congratulations on the new
20 commercial cleaning contract.
21 My question is, you know, because we
22 have this discussion about the needs and
23 we're all clear about what the facts are, and
24 at times we divide forces that could be
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1 easily coalesced. And they do this with
2 labor as well. So I'm asking from a labor
3 perspective: Are you aware of how much of
4 your members' wages they spend on rent?
5 MR. PASTREICH: Yeah, thank you for
6 the question, Senator.
7 So our members in New York City
8 range -- our commercial members and
9 residential members are on the higher range
10 of our members. And I would say, you know,
11 our members are very much like working-class
12 New Yorkers. And I think the stat roughly
13 for working-class New Yorkers is that
14 50 percent of New Yorkers spend a third of
15 their salary on rent, and a third of
16 New Yorkers spend 50 percent of their salary
17 on rent.
18 And I think our members are not that
19 different from that reality, from our
20 better-paid members to the workers who've
21 been most recently organized at airports and
22 other places.
23 So the rent burden and the increases
24 in rent have been a real stress for our
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1 members and a major concern for us.
2 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you for that
3 response.
4 And in line with that, I would ask the
5 entire panel -- and you don't have to give an
6 extensive answer, but it was alluded to in
7 several of your testimonies. We have been
8 told that we can either do a lot on the
9 supply side, we can do a lot on the zoning,
10 or we can do a lot to protect tenants.
11 And I want to know from each person on
12 the panel whether or not you think it is
13 feasible for us to do all of those things and
14 tackle them at the same time -- not perhaps
15 to completion in every single area, but to
16 not be paralyzed by not being able to
17 accomplish every one of those things.
18 MS. FEE: Thank you. I'll start.
19 So I would just say that we know we
20 have a housing supply shortage, especially
21 for affordable units. So as we're building,
22 we have to keep creating incentives and other
23 tools to create affordable housing.
24 But building takes a long time, and
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1 people can't pay their rent today. So we
2 strongly support the Housing Access Voucher
3 Program to make sure that we have more
4 resources to help people stay in their homes
5 and afford a home.
6 MR. PASTREICH: I'll just add that I
7 think the answer is a simple yes. I think
8 that when you look back over the past couple
9 of years, I think there's been a lot of good
10 ideas. And I think now is the moment. And
11 we're very optimistic that we can put
12 together key elements of capping rent so that
13 tenants are not gouged -- but, as many people
14 have said on this panel, ensuring that we
15 have the supply that we need as well.
16 MS. GRAY: I'll also jump in and say a
17 hearty yes. You're speaking my language,
18 Senator.
19 But we -- you know, tenant protections
20 and supply really go hand in hand, and we
21 need all of the above. And it's very
22 possible.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
24 We go to Assemblywoman Kelles.
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1 (Pause.)
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: All right, I
3 found all my notes.
4 So thank you all. Like the balance
5 of, as you heard me say earlier, being able
6 to walk and chew gum at the same time and be
7 able to address the crisis today, which is
8 that we have housing that's not affordable,
9 and build at the same time -- so thank you
10 for confirming -- for confirming that.
11 I would love -- Annemarie, we've
12 spoken about this before, but I want to hear
13 you talk a little bit more about the research
14 between incentivizing the development of
15 housing versus having a mandatory program
16 across the state that requires that everyone
17 participate. Create diversity, but it's
18 mandatory participation.
19 MS. GRAY: Yes, thank you.
20 So this was a big topic of
21 conversation last year. But all of the
22 academic research is quite clear that an
23 incentives-only approach doesn't work.
24 Right? There are a lot of -- New York has
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1 some of the most exclusionary zoning in --
2 across parts of the state. And frankly just
3 incentives and sort of asking some places to
4 build more housing, it's just proven to not
5 be the only way we can do things.
6 So -- which is why our organization,
7 we're really, we're really advocating for --
8 of course you need incentives. There are a
9 lot of things we can do. We also have to
10 just be honest that we absolutely need the
11 state to use all of the tools that it has to
12 keep all parts of the state just accountable
13 to fair housing and to really being part of
14 the solution, that we just need more homes.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Great, thank
16 you. It does seem that having a program that
17 is flexible enough so that communities can
18 still decide how they want to participate,
19 but that they simply have to participate,
20 would be a great balance. So I think that
21 housing compact kind of got there a little
22 bit. I mean, I think it did a good job on a
23 lot of it. So thank you on that.
24 Another question: You've been
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1 advocating for the Faith-Based Housing Act.
2 Can you talk about the components of it, how
3 this will help with our supply?
4 MS. GRAY: Yeah, absolutely.
5 So the Faith-Based Affordable Housing
6 Act empowers religious organizations who have
7 deep connections to their local communities
8 to develop mixed-income and 100 percent
9 affordable housing on their land across the
10 state.
11 So this is actually something that has
12 passed in other states. It's really making
13 sure that we're both kind of using all of the
14 powers of the state to, again, keep everyone
15 accountable and just get rid of sort of
16 outdated zoning restrictions that slow
17 down -- something that a lot of religious
18 organizations already want to do by serving
19 their communities and their constituents with
20 more affordable housing on land that they
21 already have.
22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: So has a lot of
23 support been from the faith-based community?
24 MS. GRAY: It is. We're working with
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1 a whole coalition of faith leaders.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: All right. It
3 seems like wonderful low-hanging fruit. So
4 if they -- we so rarely have people say,
5 Please let us help, let us be part of the
6 solution. We've got a group that's saying,
7 Please, please, let us do it. It just seems
8 very strange to not prioritize it.
9 So thank you so much, appreciate it.
10 Thank you, everyone, I really appreciate it.
11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?
12 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Senator May?
13 SENATOR MAY: Thank you.
14 And thank you all for your advocacy.
15 I -- and Annemarie especially for keeping the
16 term "zoning" on the table. Because I think
17 just because local officials went nuts about
18 it last year isn't a reason we need to table
19 that.
20 In my city of Syracuse we know that as
21 soon as you get outside the boundary of the
22 city, there's almost no land that is zoned
23 for multifamily housing.
24 And the very term "affordable housing"
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1 seems to trigger so much opposition in local
2 communities that it's just almost impossible
3 to build -- to overcome the zoning
4 restrictions.
5 So I guess I -- this is partly for
6 Bria. I feel like part of that is people
7 don't have a vision of what can be beautiful,
8 attractive, affordable housing that works,
9 that, you know -- and especially mixed-income
10 housing that creates communities and helps
11 contribute to walkable, desirable
12 neighborhoods and that kind of thing.
13 So I'm just wondering, is there --
14 have you all worked on like literature or a
15 tour or something that helps us raise the
16 profile of that kind of housing to something
17 that communities might be able to imagine?
18 MS. DONOHUE: Yeah, absolutely. Our
19 members are a hundred percent committed to
20 the whole built environment. It's not just
21 about creating strong design, it's about
22 incorporating it into the larger community
23 and the public realm element of it.
24 Which is why office-to-residential
307
1 conversions is something that we are really
2 passionate about and supportive of, because
3 it does not interrupt the character and the
4 integrity and the connection to the
5 neighborhood.
6 We're adaptively reusing existing
7 buildings. And there's also a lot of
8 sustainability benefits to it that I wasn't
9 able to touch on in my testimony, but it's in
10 my written comments. So it's about the
11 larger connection to the city and to the
12 state as a whole. And so we're trying to
13 figure out and advocate for different ways to
14 do that.
15 SENATOR MAY: Great. Thank you.
16 And then, Annemarie, I'm wondering --
17 how much do you think about not just changing
18 the zoning itself, but changing who is doing
19 that? I feel like really trying to promote
20 having young people on zoning boards who have
21 a desire for walkable communities, for
22 example. Or people who have a vision for the
23 future rather than people who are just
24 protecting their vision of the past.
308
1 Is that something you're thinking
2 about? Is that something we can help with?
3 MS. GRAY: Yeah. So Open New York,
4 we're a grassroots membership-based
5 organization, so we have hundreds of members.
6 A lot of them are on their own community
7 boards. They kind of go together to meetings
8 to really like be proponents of new housing
9 directly in their backyards. So we think
10 it's a model, and we've expanded across the
11 entire state.
12 So it's really, really, really
13 important. This is a -- you know, we got
14 into this mess over decades, and it's going
15 to take us kind of everything to get out of
16 it and everyone really organized.
17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
18 SENATOR MAY: Thank you.
19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to
20 Assemblymember Grace Lee.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEE: Good afternoon.
22 Thanks for waiting patiently to testify.
23 And I want to thank especially our
24 labor unions here for being a good reminder
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1 of all the great men and women who keep our
2 city running and who also are struggling with
3 housing.
4 So this is for Manny. I see many 32BJ
5 members who work in big buildings in my
6 district in Manhattan. What are their
7 commutes like? And how does their access to
8 affordable housing impact their commute?
9 And can you tell me how many of -- you
10 know, more specifically, how many of your
11 members are traveling more than an hour to
12 get to their jobs?
13 MR. PASTREICH: Yeah. No, thank you,
14 Assemblymember. The -- so approximately
15 80,000 of our members work in New York City.
16 And of those, 13,000 live outside the city
17 and 6,000 live outside the state. So I think
18 it's a fair assumption for those 13,000 that
19 their commutes are over an hour.
20 We know that a few hundred of our
21 members live in Pennsylvania because that's
22 where they can afford to live, so they have
23 at least a two-hour commute each direction.
24 So it is a real stress in the realities of
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1 it.
2 You know, it varies. We could have a
3 discussion about the MTA. But the reality is
4 13,000 are clearly over an hour commute in
5 each direction.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEE: Great. Thank you.
7 MR. PASTREICH: Thank you.
8 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Senator Martins.
9 SENATOR MARTINS: Good afternoon,
10 everyone. Thank you for your patience.
11 I happen to represent one of those
12 urban districts that everyone is concerned
13 about, with zoning and the like. I have
14 about 45 villages in my district in
15 Nassau County outside of New York City.
16 And, you know, I love the term
17 "exclusionary zoning," especially when it's
18 used by someone who doesn't live in a suburb
19 or in a village, because it means villages
20 make decisions for themselves and those
21 communities get to decide what's permissible
22 or, alternatively, what's excluded. We like
23 to consider the possibilities.
24 So as a Mineola guy myself -- and we
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1 built probably 1500 units or so in the last
2 10 years in the village, based on downtown
3 revitalization efforts. I guess I'm
4 concerned because I know other communities
5 that are socioeconomically challenged who are
6 telling us: "Don't build any more low-income
7 housing or affordable housing here, we have
8 enough. We want to see market-rate housing,
9 because we want people to build market rates
10 in our downtown."
11 So there seems to be a disconnect --
12 socioeconomically challenged communities that
13 feel that they have too many affordable units
14 in their downtowns, and they want market-rate
15 because they want the activity that comes
16 from that market-rate housing.
17 Do we support that? Should we support
18 that? Because I think all kinds of housing
19 should be an imperative here, and not a
20 one-size-fits-all approach. Because there
21 are communities out there that are asking us
22 precisely for that.
23 So, Annemarie, what do you say?
24 MS. GRAY: Yeah, our organization --
312
1 we support all types of housing, very
2 explicitly. We support market-rate housing,
3 we support affordable. Frankly, I think you
4 need a diversity of sizes of housing that
5 serves different family structures. You need
6 people to be able to upsize, downsize.
7 And frankly, we are -- we need all of
8 it so badly, we just need to make sure that
9 everyone is kind of taking that approach and
10 being part of the solution.
11 But we're very much for that.
12 SENATOR MARTINS: Yeah, look, I happen
13 to agree. I love housing diversity. I love
14 the fact that people can buy a house when
15 they're young, move into the suburbs if they
16 choose to, and as they're older they can stay
17 in the community where they live.
18 I'd just love to see us use an
19 all-tools approach -- I think we heard that
20 before from some of my colleagues -- about
21 how we should put everything on the table and
22 not emphasize one as opposed to others as a
23 tool.
24 So I thank you all for your testimony
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1 today. Looking forward to working with my
2 colleagues in trying to figure out how we
3 incentivize not only landlords to maintain
4 apartments and make them livable and spend
5 money in revamping them and not just looking
6 at them as -- in a negative light, but also
7 incentivizing our local communities to use
8 their zoning laws. Because I do think the
9 carrot works -- more likely to get a better
10 result than that stick.
11 So thanks again.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
13 We go to Assemblywoman
14 Chandler-Waterman.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
16 Thank you so much for all the hard work you
17 do around housing.
18 And this is going to go to Manny, of
19 32BJ. Yeah, we're asking you a lot of
20 questions today.
21 So we talked about your union members,
22 how hardworking they are, essential to
23 buildings, essential workers. And they're
24 working in housing facilities that they could
314
1 probably never afford to live in.
2 And then we have a community
3 preference percentage change that was made
4 with the mayor, the settlement, right, that
5 changes that for affordable housing from 50
6 percent to I think like 15 percent. How does
7 that impact your members?
8 MR. PASTREICH: The thing that we're
9 pushing for is to ensure that we get
10 increased supply and that we use all the
11 levers we can to ensure that with that
12 increased supply there's a level of
13 affordability.
14 And I think when we go through the
15 affordability levels, I think as a number of
16 people just said, we need different levels of
17 affordability. Obviously for union members
18 in New York City that affordability is a
19 little higher than in other areas. And
20 addressing the affordability levels that meet
21 the needs of 32BJ members, hotel trades,
22 public-sector groups is incredibly important.
23 But obviously, as others have said, we
24 have to meet the needs of all New Yorkers up
315
1 and down the income ladder.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN: And
3 there needs to be more local community too,
4 what their median income is for that
5 particular community so they go for it to
6 live there.
7 And for interfaith housing, what does
8 it -- what can it look like to really include
9 our faith leaders in part of development? Is
10 there a plan that you may have? That would
11 be great. Or is there one that we can work
12 towards that's going to really have the faith
13 leaders at the head of development in their
14 communities, the Black and brown communities
15 especially.
16 MS. GRAY: Yeah, I would love to sit
17 down and talk more directly.
18 So this is a bill that just basically
19 puts -- it gets rid of some red tape that
20 stops faith-based organizations who want to
21 use their land to build housing. It just
22 makes it easier for them and makes it faster
23 for them. They're in the driver's seat.
24 There's also some components to the
316
1 bill that allow some technical assistance
2 programs and support, just to make sure that
3 you know how to navigate some of the process
4 with all of -- with different partnerships.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN: And
6 especially the financing part of it.
7 MS. GRAY: Exactly.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN: To
9 make sure they get the loans --
10 MS. GRAY: Exactly.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN: --
12 and remove the red tape as well, and get
13 assistance throughout the whole process.
14 MS. GRAY: Exactly.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN: So I
16 appreciate definitely talking with y'all. I
17 appreciate -- anybody want to add anything
18 else -- we're talking about true
19 affordability -- that we have not mentioned
20 here? I have 30 seconds. Anybody want to
21 say anything?
22 MS. FEE: We're supportive of funding
23 for LISC NY that is looking to provide that
24 technical assistance to faith-based
317
1 organizations and build affordable housing.
2 And that's part of our budget request as
3 well.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
5 Thank you so much.
6 Twenty seconds. Anybody else?
7 MS. WYLIE: Oh, thank you. I included
8 this in our written testimony as well, but
9 the Building Congress is also in support of
10 faith-based housing. But additionally,
11 increasing as-of-right opportunities for
12 areas where less than 10 percent of the
13 housing in the area, in the units, are below
14 market rate. And we think these will create
15 affordability.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
17 Thank you all for your support. Thank you.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
19 Assemblywoman Rosenthal.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Hi. Thank
21 you all for your testimony.
22 So everybody here is basically
23 supporting what the Governor put in her
24 budget, and then you've mentioned some other
318
1 things you support.
2 Last year there were 213,000-plus
3 filings for evictions across the state,
4 135,000 of them were in the city. So they
5 weren't all evicted, but they were all
6 brought to court. So how do you think we
7 deal with that situation in the contexts of
8 building, converting commercial to
9 residential -- and hopefully not a
10 Fifth Avenue type, but a mixed-income
11 commercial conversion -- and yet tenants
12 don't have access to attorneys in the city
13 because there's not enough of them and they
14 don't have the right across the state?
15 So heavy on supply solutions, but less
16 on keeping people housed and at decent rents.
17 MS. GRAY: Yeah, I'm happy to start.
18 That we -- you know, our policy
19 platform very much believes that the root
20 issue here is that we have -- we've had
21 decades of underbuilding and lack of supply
22 of all types, but frankly in the near term
23 you need to make sure that you're keeping
24 tenants in their homes and that these really
319
1 go hand in hand. And this is how it's also
2 played out in other states.
3 So we're supportive of the good-cause
4 eviction bill and of generally just making
5 sure that you're really thinking about this
6 holistically, both in the near term and who's
7 suffering right now, but then also just
8 taking a hard look at the root cause and
9 making sure you're really addressing the fact
10 that frankly right now landlords -- it's
11 really easy to take advantage of tenants
12 because they don't have other options. And
13 we should switch that.
14 MS. FEE: I would just add that the
15 eviction filings, we're really concerned
16 because that number is growing. And the
17 number of households that are actually being
18 evicted has I think more than doubled in the
19 last year.
20 So, you know, I think right to counsel
21 has been proven to be really effective.
22 We're certainly supportive of an expansion.
23 We're also supportive of rent arrears
24 across the state. An emergency one-shot
320
1 program has been effective in keeping people
2 in their homes in New York City, and that
3 could go beyond New York City as well.
4 And then, you know, the Housing
5 Voucher Program also is really critical. And
6 I had mentioned our analysis of arrears and
7 affordable housing where a third of tenants
8 are still struggling. We have this left over
9 from the pandemic, where renters --
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: I want to
11 get other people, thank you.
12 MS. FEE: Yeah, sure.
13 MR. PASTREICH: I'll go quickly.
14 I mean, I think that in -- we strongly
15 believe we need to set -- have some kind of
16 rent cap so people don't get evicted for
17 unreasonable rent increases. I think we need
18 a right to counsel. And vouchers also are --
19 I think need to be a key component as well to
20 ensure that people can stay in their housing.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Anyone else?
22 MS. DONOHUE: Again, I'll just say
23 quickly, AIA New York strongly supports just
24 adding as many tools to the toolbox as
321
1 possible, to giving as many people an
2 opportunity. But again, supply is really
3 what we think is the core problem here.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
6 SENATOR KAVANAGH: I think we're good.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay. So thank
8 you to this panel for being here.
9 And we're going to go to Panel D:
10 Association for Neighborhood and Housing
11 Development; Interfaith Affordable Housing
12 Collaborative; Enterprise Community Partners;
13 Thurgood Marshall Institute, NAACP; Community
14 Voices Heard; and Make the Road New York.
15 And if you're part of Panel E, which
16 is our last panel, I might suggest that you
17 make your way to the front of the room so
18 people could get home for Valentine's night.
19 (Laughter.)
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: It's musical
21 chairs today.
22 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Yeah, right.
23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So we'll go in
24 the order that I said, so Emily Goldstein
322
1 first.
2 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Good afternoon. And
3 thank you for the opportunity to testify and
4 for sticking around through this long
5 hearing.
6 My name's Emily Goldstein. I'm the
7 director of organizing and advocacy at ANHD,
8 which stands for the Association for
9 Neighborhood and Housing Development.
10 There are a number -- there's a lot in
11 my written testimony, so I'm just going to do
12 highlights and try to keep it short.
13 First of all, we want to thank you for
14 your support of the Displacement Alert
15 Project and ask you to continue that support.
16 We want to maintain the important data work
17 that we're doing that provides our elected
18 officials as well as community members with
19 resources that they need to understand the
20 housing situation and displacement risks in
21 their communities.
22 Second, an initiative that's been
23 highlighted a number of times by others who
24 have testified but is really crucial for our
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1 nonprofit developer members in particular, is
2 we really need emergency preservation funding
3 to address the unmet needs of rental arrears
4 in nonprofit and in general affordable
5 housing.
6 A lot of affordable housing never got
7 ERAP, was not served by the money that was
8 provided last year. We supported, you know,
9 both those programs. We certainly don't ever
10 want to be pitting different forms of
11 affordable housing against each other. A lot
12 of last year's money went to public housing,
13 which was absolutely a necessity, but it
14 means there are a lot of affordable buildings
15 that are still carrying arrears from during
16 the height of the pandemic when, you know,
17 through nobody's fault, no one could pay.
18 This is particularly unsustainable for
19 nonprofit mission-driven developers that
20 operate on incredibly slim margins, because
21 they underwrite their buildings to maximize
22 affordability and they're always putting
23 resources back into community programs. So
24 this is becoming -- you know, this has been
324
1 an issue. It's hitting a crisis point where
2 we're either going to see buildings start to
3 fail or tenants start to get evicted, and we
4 desperately don't want either of those things
5 to happen.
6 Third, we support -- along with
7 others -- both the legislation and the
8 Governor's recommendations around addressing
9 discrimination on insurance premiums in
10 affordable housing. This has likewise become
11 a huge challenge for our members.
12 Fourth, we absolutely need to pass and
13 fund right to counsel statewide. We support
14 good-cause. We agree with the BASE campaign
15 and supportive of that campaign on passing
16 legalization for basement and cellar
17 apartments and allowing the city to address
18 those housing needs.
19 And finally, I'll just say, unlike
20 many of the others who have spoken here, we
21 are not supportive of the -- what we've seen
22 so far of proposals to replace 421-a. The
23 numbers and letters keep changing. At its
24 core, this still seems to be primarily use of
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1 public resources for primarily market-rate
2 housing, and we don't think that's the right
3 priority for public resources.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
5 Rashida Tyler.
6 MS. TYLER: Hi, thank you. My name is
7 Rashida Tyler. I'm the project manager for
8 the Interfaith Affordable Housing
9 Collaborative and the Partnership of
10 Faith-Based Affordable Housing and Community
11 Development, a/ka/a "the Partnership." I am
12 also the deputy executive director of the
13 New York State Council of Churches.
14 The Partnership is comprised of the
15 New York State Council of Churches,
16 Interfaith Affordable Housing Collaborative,
17 and the Interfaith Assembly on Homelessness
18 and Housing and Bricks and Mortals.
19 And so these organizations were begun
20 to help faith-based organizations respond to
21 housing and homelessness crises in their
22 communities by providing them access to
23 technical assistance and predevelopment funds
24 to utilize their properties to help develop
326
1 housing that stabilizes and strengthens their
2 communities.
3 Although it is well-known that
4 New York State has been in a housing crisis
5 for many years, post-pandemic this crisis has
6 been deepening at an alarming rate.
7 According to the Fiscal Policy Institute --
8 and again, we all know these numbers, so I'm
9 not going to go too in-depth -- but
10 40 percent -- housing prices have increased
11 40 percent in the three years since the
12 pandemic.
13 According to the Point-In-Time housing
14 survey, our homelessness count, New York
15 State is second in the nation for the number
16 of homeless individuals. And last year there
17 were 212,000 eviction filings in New York
18 State, according to the Eviction Dashboard.
19 So these numbers are worsening. And
20 it should come as no surprise that our
21 faith-based institutions are being impacted
22 in unprecedented ways, particularly with the
23 loss of population of over 100,000 people
24 since last year.
327
1 And so post-COVID, faith-based
2 organizations are facing economic pressures,
3 with over 50 percent of some pastors citing
4 negative impact on their congregations.
5 Attendance at religious services is
6 decreasing. And although giving remains
7 stable, operating costs are rising and many
8 houses of worship are in economic distress.
9 So we favor the Faith-Based Affordable
10 Housing Act, which allows faith-based
11 organizations to utilize their properties to
12 develop affordable housing. Outside of
13 New York City, you can build up to three
14 stories; inside of New York City, up to five
15 stories. It's based on population.
16 The reason we favor the Faith-Based
17 Affordable Housing Act is that it allows
18 communities to determine and work with their
19 institutions of faith to find the type of
20 development that works best for them.
21 The housing crisis really can be seen
22 as three crises in one -- a lack of vacancy,
23 a lack of affordability, and a lack of will.
24 Many faith-based institutions have the will
328
1 to develop, but there are many things such as
2 zoning restrictions that actually hamper
3 their ability to develop. So we urge a
4 comprehensive housing plan that is
5 pro-development, such as the Governor's
6 Pro-Housing Communities plan, and also
7 policies that help prevent homelessness, such
8 as the Housing Access Voucher program and the
9 right to counsel, which helps keep people
10 housed.
11 Thank you.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
13 Next, Enterprise Community Partners.
14 MR. BOYLE: Hi. I'm Patrick Boyle,
15 senior director with Enterprise Community
16 Partners. Thank you for the opportunity to
17 testify here today.
18 A number of issues, some of which were
19 reflected in the Governor's budget and a few
20 other additional ones we just wanted to
21 highlight quickly today.
22 First is the Housing Access Voucher
23 Program. We are co-conveners of that
24 coalition, which has been growing. It's
329
1 really been growing in membership around the
2 state. I think coming out of the pandemic,
3 in terms of what we've seen around rental
4 arrears and housing insecurity and
5 homelessness, you know, more important than
6 ever. And we certainly thank the Senate and
7 the Assembly for their historical support of
8 that proposal.
9 On insurance, you know, Enterprise is
10 spending a lot of time thinking about
11 insurance and convening about insurance
12 lately. It really is a significant crisis in
13 the affordable housing world. So we support
14 the Governor's language in her
15 Executive Budget around closing some of the
16 discrimination loopholes -- and, you know,
17 thank our Housing chairs for kind of beating
18 the drum about this issue for a while now.
19 So that's an important first step.
20 But we want do want to stress that that is a
21 first step of what we think are a number of
22 necessary steps. You know, it's going to be
23 important to close the discrimination
24 loophole, but it doesn't address root causes.
330
1 There's going to be funding relief that's
2 needed here, and there's going to be sort of
3 a number of, you know, regulatory and
4 legislative solutions that we hope to partner
5 with the Legislature on moving forward over
6 this session.
7 The Fair Housing Testing Network and
8 Opportunity Program out of HCR, this launched
9 last year, $2 million to fund six
10 full-service fair housing testing
11 organizations around the state. That's gone
12 a long way. That has grown out of an
13 Enterprise pilot program called EBNY {ph}, is
14 where that -- where this program was sort of
15 seeded from. It needs more funding support.
16 So it's $2 million, and that's allowed
17 these organizations to do a lot, but there's
18 a lot of unreached areas around the state in
19 terms of fair housing deserts. There's a lot
20 more these organizations could be doing.
21 There's a lot that they do that's not covered
22 under the parameters of the program.
23 So we would like to request an
24 increase to $8 million annually for that
331
1 program. There's still a tremendous amount
2 of source of income discrimination that goes
3 on around the state, and we'd really like to
4 see a funding increase there to match the
5 need.
6 We support the Supportive Housing
7 Network and their ask for $32 million to
8 bolster the State Supportive Housing Program
9 initiative and bring those up to ESSHI levels
10 of funding.
11 And we support the Rural Housing
12 Coalition and their ask for $25 million
13 around USDA 515 housing preservation. So,
14 you know, this is a lot of housing units
15 around the state that's coming up to the end
16 of their sort of affordability regulatory
17 periods, over 20,000 units around the state.
18 And so, you know, that's a great preservation
19 need that's going to become more apparent in
20 the years and decade ahead.
21 So thank you for your consideration.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Perfect timing.
23 Thurgood Marshall Institute.
24 DR. KAJEEPETA: Thank you.
332
1 Good afternoon. My name is
2 Dr. Sandhya Kajeepeta, speaking on behalf of
3 the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. Thank you for
4 the opportunity to testify in support of
5 good-cause eviction legislation, which has
6 been discussed already today.
7 My testimony will focus on my original
8 research on racial disparities and evictions
9 in New York State and the ways in which
10 good-cause can help promote racial equality
11 in the state.
12 In 2022, New York landlords filed
13 nearly 200,000 eviction filings. That's
14 almost triple the number in 2021. About
15 20 percent of these filings are for holdover
16 evictions, those initiated for a reason other
17 than nonpayment of rent. The concerning
18 reality is that many New York renters live in
19 their homes at the whim of their landlords,
20 and they can be evicted for reasons that are
21 no fault of their own.
22 New research from LDF's
23 Thurgood Marshall Institute, where I am
24 senior researcher, documents that New York's
333
1 eviction crisis has a disportionate impact on
2 Black renters. We analyzed housing and
3 demographic data from the census and the
4 Statewide Eviction Dashboard.
5 We found that, first, Black New York
6 residents are significantly more likely to be
7 renters than homeowners. Two of every three
8 Black households in the state are renters,
9 while two of every three white households are
10 homeowners. As a result, tenant protections
11 are particularly important for the hundreds
12 of thousands of Black renter households in
13 New York.
14 Second, Black New Yorkers are
15 4.6 times as likely as white New Yorkers to
16 report being threatened with eviction.
17 And finally, we found that New York
18 counties and neighborhoods with higher
19 Black renter populations face higher rates of
20 total and holdover eviction filings. A
21 10 percentage-point increase in the percent
22 of Black renters in a county was associated
23 with a 55 percent increase in the rate of
24 total eviction filings and a 33 percent
334
1 increase in the rate of holdover eviction
2 filings. We observed the same pattern at the
3 zip code level.
4 The findings from our analysis provide
5 evidence that Black communities in New York
6 face a disproportionate risk of eviction,
7 including holdover evictions where the renter
8 is keeping up with rent payments.
9 Enacting good-cause-eviction
10 protection in New York has the potential to
11 reduce the rate of holdover evictions, help
12 renters stay in their homes, and limit the
13 negative impacts of housing instability. We
14 anticipate that good-cause will significantly
15 benefit renters in predominantly Black
16 neighborhoods that currently face a
17 disproportionate risk of total evictions and
18 holdover evictions.
19 Thank you.
20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
21 And Community Voices Heard.
22 MS. WILLIAMS: Good afternoon, and
23 thank you for having me this evening.
24 My name is Barbara Williams. I am a
335
1 member of Community Voices Heard, and I live
2 in public housing in Washington Heights.
3 I've lived in public housing for
4 33 years. I've also been the president of my
5 resident association for two terms. I'm here
6 today because of the living conditions that
7 I'm seeing in public housing.
8 I've been in apartments with no
9 kitchen. I've been in apartments with no
10 walls. I've looked into closets where you
11 couldn't see the ceiling because of black
12 mold. I've smelled mold and mildew so strong
13 that I almost passed out. I've opened
14 kitchen cabinets infested with roaches. I've
15 seen bathroom ceilings fall on my neighbors.
16 And we've been going through these same
17 issues for three decades. Three decades. No
18 one should have to live like that.
19 The development where I live, the
20 Polo Grounds, was constructed in 1968. In
21 56 years, the piping has never been updated.
22 Just Band-Aid fixes. And while all of this
23 is going on, 800 people in Polo Grounds are
24 likely to be evicted for rent arrears because
336
1 public housing residents were not covered in
2 the pandemic aid. That's not right.
3 But this isn't just an issue in
4 Polo Grounds or in NYCHA. Lack of repairs
5 and evictions is a problem statewide. CVH
6 members living in Newburgh public housing
7 face the same issues. Their buildings are
8 falling apart.
9 Nearly 600,000 people live in public
10 housing across the state. Public housing is
11 one of the largest sources of affordable
12 housing. In the middle of a statewide
13 housing crisis, the state can't afford to
14 lose more public housing because of
15 disinvestment. We depend on the state to
16 protect us and provide us with healthy homes.
17 We voted you into office because we
18 felt you would do the right things for people
19 in public housing. I'm here on behalf of
20 Community Voices Heard members from across
21 the state to ask you to commit $4.5 billion
22 for public housing capital repairs to
23 preserve 40,000 public housing units.
24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you for
337
1 your -- thank you for your oral testimony.
2 As I said earlier, all the written
3 testimony is posted on the Assembly and
4 Senate websites.
5 And to end this panel, Make the Road
6 New York.
7 MS. HERNANDEZ: Yes. Thank you for
8 allowing me to testify. My name is Jennifer
9 Hernandez, and I'm a staff member at Make the
10 Road New York, a 25-year-old organization
11 building the power of immigrant and
12 working-class communities.
13 New York faces an out-of-control
14 housing and affordability crisis. Rents and
15 basic costs have risen dramatically. Wages
16 and government support have stagnated.
17 Meanwhile, millions of people remain unjustly
18 excluded from tenant protections and key
19 safety-net programs like health insurance and
20 unemployment.
21 Families are being pushed out of their
22 homes and neighborhoods. We now have the
23 highest homelessness level since the Great
24 Depression, the consequence of decades of
338
1 inaction to ensure safe, affordable housing
2 for all.
3 Governor Hochul continues to cater to
4 real estate tycoons who see our homes as
5 ATMs, raising rents, refusing to make basic
6 repairs, and displacing us. She has no plan
7 to address this crisis. We do. All
8 New Yorkers deserve the freedom to stay in
9 our homes -- affordable, comfortable and safe
10 homes where we can watch our kids take their
11 first steps, gather around the kitchen table
12 to share meals, and unwind after a long day
13 of work.
14 The Legislature must stand up to the
15 Governor and prioritize the needs of Black,
16 brown and immigrant families. We must give
17 unregulated renters protections against
18 unreasonable rent hikes and retaliatory or
19 discriminatory evictions by passing a
20 statewide good-cause eviction program, as
21 introduced by Senator Salazar and
22 Assemblymember Hunter.
23 We must create a statewide program
24 that provides low-income New Yorkers who are
339
1 homeless or at risk of homelessness with
2 money to pay their rent. Let's pass the
3 Housing Access Voucher Program, as introduced
4 by Senator Kavanagh and Assemblymember
5 Rosenthal. And we must invest in the future
6 of all New Yorkers by enacting the Invest In
7 Our New York tax proposal to raise tens of
8 billions of new public dollars for vital
9 services by ensuring the wealthiest
10 New Yorkers and big corporations pay what
11 they owe in taxes.
12 These concrete policy steps can ensure
13 that every tenant in New York gains the same
14 basic protections. But you must stand up to
15 the Governor and her real estate friends who
16 will continue to try to take away our homes
17 and even chip away at the rent-stabilization
18 laws we have already fought so hard to
19 strengthen.
20 Without action now, more and more
21 families will find themselves on the streets
22 or unable to live in our state. Our written
23 testimony will lay out our additional policy
24 priorities to ensure all New Yorkers have the
340
1 freedom to thrive.
2 Thank you.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 For our first questioner, we go to
5 Assemblymember Chandler-Waterman.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
7 Thank you, Chair.
8 I appreciate the advocacy. I
9 appreciate all that you all have been doing,
10 not only for yourselves, but advocating for
11 others and our most vulnerable population,
12 Black and brown communities. So I agree that
13 we need to ensure community voices -- no pun
14 intended, I'm saying just involvement with
15 community members -- is at the table in a
16 true way.
17 And we know this is a multilayer issue
18 that requires a multifaceted approach. So
19 creating a pathway for faith leaders to
20 develop is one. As we know, they create
21 more. We talk -- I talk so much about that.
22 But tenants are not really being part of the
23 discussion.
24 So unfortunately, individuals going
341
1 through heartbreaking experiences -- like
2 what you said, Barbara; like what you're
3 saying, Jennifer -- don't always know where
4 to go, right? Or what to do or how to
5 access, right? We know we need so much more,
6 but what we have -- sometimes we don't even
7 know what exists.
8 So educational awareness, in what ways
9 can residents be more informed about the
10 complex dynamics of housing -- you know, what
11 they're going through and how to get support.
12 The initiatives, the workshops. What do you
13 think we could do more of, even as
14 legislators or just in agencies, just to make
15 sure that people are more aware of what
16 access is out there and what support?
17 And I could -- Make the Road. I don't
18 know if Community Voices Heard wants to start
19 with that, especially the experiences you
20 just talked about.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, I feel that
22 public housing has been being disinvested in
23 ever since 1998. And each year, it's less
24 funds with the expectation to do more.
342
1 We need funding. The funding is what
2 allows the necessary work to be done.
3 Capital projects are major. Where I live --
4 as I mentioned, this development came up in
5 1968. The piping has never been changed.
6 According to law, it should be changed every
7 20 years. So we're way past that year.
8 It's time that those things be done,
9 those types of repairs.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
11 Gotcha. Thank you.
12 MS. WILLIAMS: Mold, mildew.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
14 Thank you so much for that. And --
15 MS. HERNANDEZ: Yeah, I mean, your
16 question was around education. I mean, you
17 know, as a community organizer, we do a lot
18 of that education in the community, right?
19 Obviously, one of the things that you could
20 do is, you know, continue funding organizing,
21 fund organizers organizing even more, right?
22 But also give us the tangible
23 solutions that we can teach people about.
24 Right? A lot of the times folks come to us
343
1 with a rent hike, with an eviction for no
2 cause, right, and they come to us with -- in
3 need of solutions. Right? Sometimes they
4 don't even know that they don't have
5 protections against rent hikes. Right?
6 And we like have to sit there and say
7 to them: The most we can do, if you can find
8 a lawyer and right to counsel, right,
9 because -- you know, because of the -- so
10 many cases, right, it's -- right? Like you
11 might be able to delay your process of
12 eviction, but we probably won't be able to
13 stop your eviction. Right?
14 And so they ask questions, right?
15 Where am I -- where else am I going to go?
16 What apartments can I rent. Right? We don't
17 have those tools.
18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CHANDLER-WATERMAN:
20 Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to the
22 Senate.
23 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Just I guess the
24 first question for ANHD.
344
1 We had NYSAFAH here earlier talking
2 about the -- what did they call it? I'm
3 sorry, there's a -- NYSAFAH was also pushing
4 for a $250 million fund to stabilize existing
5 housing, which sounded a little bit -- quite
6 a bit like your emergency preservation fund.
7 I'm just trying to figure out, are
8 these sort of distinct asks for distinct sets
9 of housing? Or is there a consensus among
10 ANHD and NYSAFAH and perhaps others that a
11 new $250 million fund would be what we'd be
12 looking for this year?
13 MS. GOLDSTEIN: I think there's
14 consensus that we're looking for funding for
15 affordable housing. I think probably there's
16 still some working out of the details of
17 exactly how would the program work, who
18 qualifies. You know, what types of -- yeah,
19 the details.
20 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Okay. But just so
21 there's not --
22 MS. GOLDSTEIN: It's the same
23 $250 million.
24 SENATOR KAVANAGH: That's what I was
345
1 getting at.
2 MS. GOLDSTEIN: I think there's still
3 some sorting out of exactly how should it be
4 distributed, what are the qualifications and
5 criteria for prioritization.
6 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Right. And in
7 response to questions earlier NYSAFAH said,
8 you know, there would be, you know, an
9 application process and some details to be
10 worked out with HCR. I would, just for
11 practical purposes in the next five weeks or
12 so --
13 MS. GOLDSTEIN: It's the same -- it's
14 the same pot.
15 SENATOR KAVANAGH: I think you should
16 also come up with the same name for it, just
17 so -- because it's going to be hard -- I
18 think it's going to be hard for -- like
19 people have trouble processing all the things
20 that are being asked for. So it would be
21 helpful if it's -- if there's a single kind
22 of ask.
23 The -- there's -- you know, we've -- a
24 lot of us have been advocating for a long
346
1 time for money for public housing, for
2 capital. I really appreciate CVH's role in
3 bringing, you know, the voices of people most
4 affected by this to Albany over the course of
5 many years now.
6 I just want to -- since there's only a
7 few of us here now, one of the arguments we
8 often get when we talk about putting more
9 money into public housing capital is that
10 public housing authorities, particularly the
11 New York City Public Housing Authority, don't
12 manage their capital particularly well. That
13 they don't -- they haven't -- you know, they
14 have management operational challenges. They
15 don't spend the money they have.
16 Can you just, as someone who's
17 advocating for $4.5 billion over the next
18 five years, which is something I support, can
19 you just talk a little bit about, you know,
20 how your advocacy for additional money fits
21 within that argument?
22 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, I can't offer how
23 the money is spent. I'm not on that level.
24 I am not -- I'm not an employee of public
347
1 housing. I live in public housing, and I
2 feel that my home should be as good as
3 anybody else's home. And everybody who lives
4 in public housing has the right to a safe and
5 healthy home.
6 And that's the responsibility of those
7 that we put in place, to protect that. Poor
8 management, on city and state -- if the money
9 is not being used correctly, those people
10 answer to those agencies, not to residents.
11 So I feel that -- put people in place
12 that check. I live in public housing. When
13 I first came in, there were superintendents
14 that came behind the workers to make sure
15 that the work was done that they were
16 allotted to do. That's not happening
17 anymore.
18 There were two apartment inspections
19 yearly to make sure that what was needed in
20 those apartments was done and the residents
21 who lived there were doing their part to
22 upkeep that apartment. That's no longer
23 done.
24 There's a lot of things that --
348
1 that -- I cannot go through the list here, it
2 would just get too much time.
3 SENATOR KAVANAGH: I'm going to get in
4 trouble if I let you go any further.
5 But thank you. That was very
6 eloquent, though. We appreciate it.
7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
8 And, you know, again, there's
9 opportunity later today to be able to submit
10 in writing -- if these conversations have
11 brought other issues to your thoughts, that
12 you can submit additional information to the
13 committees that will be posted as part of the
14 official record.
15 We go to Assemblyman Manktelow.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Thank you,
17 Madam Chair.
18 Barbara, if I could ask you a
19 question, please?
20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: And thank you
22 all for your testimony, and thank you for all
23 your comments.
24 I believe you gave us the number of
349
1 $4.3 billion to fix up the housing, is that
2 correct?
3 MS. WILLIAMS: 4.5 billion.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: 4.5 billion?
5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: So if you
7 don't mind me asking, where did that number
8 come from?
9 MS. WILLIAMS: That came from a lot of
10 research into public housing. Getting to the
11 necessary people to give us what the costs
12 would be. And that is well published in
13 NYCHA works. This is where we got it from.
14 That's their numbers, saying what it would
15 cost.
16 There are other areas that I didn't
17 even mention. But --
18 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Well, Barbara,
19 before you go on to that, just -- I want to
20 finish. I don't mean to interrupt you, but
21 I'm running out of --
22 MS. WILLIAMS: No, no, go right ahead.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: So is it safe
24 to assume that you live in NYCHA housing,
350
1 then, is that correct?
2 MS. WILLIAMS: I live in NYCHA
3 housing. Yes, I do.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: When is the
5 last time, where you live -- when is the last
6 time that has been updated?
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Updated?
8 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Mm-hmm. Like
9 a change of paint. You know, we talk about
10 lead poisoning in our water -- has all those
11 lines been checked in your unit? Those are
12 some of the questions we have.
13 You talked about every 20 years it
14 should be updated. I just want to know where
15 that number came from as well.
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, that's also part
17 of NYCHA's literature. And what is needed,
18 we have something called the Tenants Handbook
19 to give you information.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Mm-hmm.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: We get that
22 information. We didn't all throw it away.
23 It is something that was given out, like,
24 when these developments first came up. Rules
351
1 and regulations and what needs to be done and
2 when it should be done.
3 Painting used to be done every three
4 years. If you don't request it now, you
5 don't get it. And then when you do, you
6 might get one room. The entire apartment is
7 not done at the same time.
8 There's a lot of things that's not
9 being done that should be done. So this is
10 why we need this. But we need people who are
11 taking the time to manage this.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Mm-hmm.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: That money can go
14 wherever it needs to go if it's managed
15 properly.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Okay. Because
17 I know just in our Governor's proposed
18 budget, we're going from 229 billion to
19 233 billion. Well, there's your $4 billion,
20 or almost where you need to be.
21 And you're absolutely right, we throw
22 dollars at a lot of different things at the
23 state level and a lot of it doesn't get
24 followed up on, to make sure those dollars
352
1 are spent wisely.
2 So I want to thank you for your
3 testimony. And I totally agree with what
4 you're saying. Your property should be
5 updated. It should be taken care of. And
6 you should have some pride in that home.
7 So thank you for your testimony.
8 MS. WILLIAMS: And thank you.
9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: To the Senate.
10 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Senator May.
11 SENATOR MAY: Thank you. And thank
12 you all. Ms. Williams, for telling us really
13 specifics about what some of the issues are
14 that tenants confront.
15 Mr. Boyle, I wanted to ask you a
16 couple of questions about source-of-income
17 funding and what the Governor put in her
18 budget, what you think about what's in her
19 budget, and how we can further eliminate
20 source-of-income discrimination.
21 MR. BOYLE: Sure.
22 So the HCR testing program as it
23 exists is really successful for the amount of
24 money that's put into it. It's $2 million.
353
1 It funds six full-service fair housing
2 testing organizations that operate around the
3 state. That money has allowed them to hire
4 new staff, it allows them to do testing, it
5 allows them to do enforcement work and
6 negotiate settlements with landlords, which
7 is really a good outcome.
8 I think what we're looking for is not
9 just punitive damages against landlords that
10 get -- you know, that a tenant is turned away
11 and then down the line there's sort of a
12 punitive damage, but the tenant hasn't been
13 housed.
14 A model that's been sort of
15 increasingly popular and which we're very
16 supportive of is sort of negotiated -- you
17 know, when there's a tenant that's
18 discriminated against, there is a quick
19 action that's negotiated between the landlord
20 and when there's a settlement, that landlord
21 will have to put aside several units for
22 voucher-holders for the future, and there's
23 oversight of that.
24 And the Governor in her budget has a
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1 new unit between Human Rights and HCR that
2 would staff some additional people to kind of
3 help facilitate some of that up-front
4 quick-action enforcement work. And so we are
5 supportive of that new unit that the Governor
6 has announced in her State of the State.
7 The Attorney General also has a pot of
8 money, and that's intended to fund nonprofits
9 in some fair housing deserts around the state
10 that don't currently do fair housing work but
11 that might have the capacity if they got some
12 extra funding.
13 So what we're asking for is extra
14 money specifically into that HCR Fair Housing
15 Testing program, which is really kind of the
16 best current state-supported vehicle for
17 rooting out SOI. But which is just kind of,
18 you know, based on what we've seen around the
19 state, is really kind of in need of some
20 extra support.
21 SENATOR MAY: Thank you.
22 And just quickly, Ms. Tyler, the
23 faith-based affordable housing bill, I was
24 part of writing that but then we realized
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1 this really mostly affects New York City, and
2 so we wanted a New York City sponsor for
3 that.
4 But I'm wondering if you're seeing
5 pushback. Are there -- what do you expect to
6 be the barriers to making that work?
7 MS. TYLER: Well, I think that most
8 communities want to make sure that the
9 development that is proposed is specific and
10 unique to their community.
11 So I think the Faith-Based Housing Act
12 is flexible in that way. So far we've had
13 conversations with faith leaders across the
14 state, and we've been working with the
15 coalition to hold forums, and so we haven't
16 had a lot of pushback.
17 One of the things that has come up is
18 around labor and prevailing wage, which we
19 know that we want to make sure that there is
20 space and room to have those conversations
21 and make amendments to the bill, because we
22 ultimately want to make sure that labor and
23 prevailing wage are -- are included.
24 SENATOR MAY: Great. Thank you.
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1 MS. TYLER: Thank you.
2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
3 So thank you to this panel for being
4 here with us today and being able to answer
5 some of our questions. Thank you.
6 So we move on to our final panel of
7 this hearing: Rural Housing Coalition of
8 New York, Adirondack Foundation, and New York
9 State Rural Advocates.
10 MR. BORGES: Can you hear me? There
11 it goes. Okay.
12 Oh, good evening. Thank you for
13 having me. I'm Mike Borges. I'm the
14 executive director of the Rural Housing
15 Coalition of New York. We represent rural
16 housing nonprofit organizations and community
17 development organizations that serve rural
18 communities throughout the state.
19 I first want to thank the Legislature
20 for really stepping up last year and
21 supporting increases for a number of housing
22 programs that serve rural communities. Kudos
23 to you guys for really helping us and doing
24 the things that unfortunately the Governor
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1 didn't.
2 This past November the Rural Housing
3 Coalition commissioned a Marist poll that
4 showed 73 percent of New Yorkers believe
5 housing affordability is a major concern in
6 their communities and 71 percent believe the
7 state is not providing enough resources to
8 address this problem.
9 Given this overwhelming concern about
10 housing availability and affordability, we
11 had really high hopes that the Governor's
12 Executive Budget would convene housing
13 stakeholders from around the state to develop
14 consensus proposals to address this housing
15 crisis. The Executive Budget did not include
16 that. Instead, the Executive Budget actually
17 cut funding for a variety of housing
18 programs, many of which serve rural
19 communities.
20 As you know, funding was cut to
21 RESTORE, which assists seniors with emergency
22 housing repairs so they can remain in their
23 homes. Funding was cut for Access to Home,
24 which assists the disabled with accessibility
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1 modifications like wheelchair ramps,
2 handrails, so they can remain in their homes.
3 Funding was cut to the Rural Preservation
4 Program, which funds a network of nonprofit
5 housing community development organizations
6 that serve rural New Yorkers by repairing,
7 rehabbing, and building housing for
8 low-to-moderate-income New Yorkers. Funding
9 was eliminated for the Small Rental
10 Development Initiative, which funds
11 affordable rental projects of 20 units or
12 less that are more suitable for less densely
13 populated areas with little to no
14 infrastructure.
15 Lastly, we just released a report
16 yesterday about the state of our USDA 515
17 programs. This was all emailed to all the
18 legislators, and we released it to the media.
19 Again, it documents a great need in rural
20 communities. If you're not familiar with it,
21 the USDA 515 program was created by
22 Harry Truman back in 1949 or so. And in
23 New York State we built thousands of these
24 affordable rental projects in the 1980s and
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1 1990s.
2 Their mortgages are expiring now. And
3 as those mortgages expire, they lose their
4 affordability protections as well as their
5 rental assistance. So thousands of
6 New Yorkers in rural communities -- about
7 15,000 households -- potentially could lose
8 their homes because they can no longer afford
9 to stay where they are. These properties are
10 in great disrepair.
11 We're looking for an investment of
12 about $25 million, as Enterprise's Patrick
13 Boyle mentioned ealier, to similar -- like
14 with the Mitchell-Lama program. You know,
15 there was about $50 million in the
16 State Budget last year to preserve and rehab
17 the Mitchell-Lama housing. And so we're
18 looking for something similar that serves
19 rural New York.
20 Again, thank you for your support, and
21 we appreciate it.
22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
23 Adirondack Foundation.
24 MS. BELLINGHAM: Sure. Hi. Thank you
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1 for the opportunity to testify.
2 My name's Lori Bellingham, and I'm
3 vice president for community impact with
4 Adirondack Foundation. The foundation seeks
5 to improve lives and expand opportunities for
6 the people in our region by working with
7 partners to identify and address challenges
8 such as housing.
9 I'll share a brief description of our
10 year-round residents. Approximately
11 44 percent of the population are ALICE
12 individuals and families. Nearly 60 percent
13 struggle to earn enough income to access
14 stable housing, reliable transportation,
15 childcare and the like.
16 To compound our challenges, seasonal
17 housing constitutes 24 percent of housing
18 units, and in some communities it's as high
19 as 70 percent.
20 Perhaps more critical, though, is that
21 the housing affordability gap is growing. In
22 Clinton and Franklin counties, 50 percent of
23 families live in rent-burdened households.
24 And income has not kept up with housing
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1 prices. Median household income increased
2 15 percent between 2015 and 2020; however,
3 median home prices increased by 28 percent --
4 and now we've heard 40 percent from
5 elsewhere.
6 Until the gap between wages and
7 affordability of housing comes into balance,
8 our economy will be constrained. The gap and
9 our region's unique scale are two of the most
10 important points I'd like to make.
11 We noted in written testimony that our
12 communities are, quote, truly rural --
13 meaning there's rural and then there's the
14 Adirondack region. While we are
15 book-ended by population bases in Plattsburgh
16 and Lake George, the majority of the more
17 than 100 communities in between are home to
18 fewer and often far fewer than 3,000 people.
19 In these communities, housing projects of
20 12 units or less for people making at least
21 120 percent AMI make a significant impact on
22 the schools and the economy.
23 Unfortunately, as we've heard, the
24 Executive Budget fails to invest in proven
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1 programs such as the Small Rental Development
2 Initiative, Rural Preservation Program, and
3 the Adirondack Community Housing Trust. We
4 encourage the Legislature to fully support
5 these programs, as they are some of the few
6 that meet the unique needs and scale of our
7 region.
8 In addition to these programs, our
9 community has developed new ideas that can
10 pilot public-private partnerships targeted at
11 addressing the housing shortage in the
12 North Country at first. With the state
13 investment of 3.3 million and the partnership
14 of foundations and municipalities, we can
15 establish targeted resources to address the
16 need for technical assistance and
17 predevelopment support. Using state dollars
18 to leverage private philanthropy can maximize
19 and target our investments.
20 The housing crisis -- you know this --
21 is a workforce crisis. It inhibits our
22 region's economic development. Our residents
23 seek to improve their rural communities by
24 ensuring that teachers, first responders, and
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1 municipal workers can live, work, and welcome
2 visitors to the North Country.
3 Thank you for the opportunity.
4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
5 New York State Rural Advocates.
6 MR. SEBASTIAN: Thank you so much for
7 the opportunity to testify this afternoon.
8 Thank you for persevering through yet another
9 marathon day. And happy Valentine's Day.
10 My name's Blair Sebastian. I'm with
11 New York State Rural Advocates. Rural
12 Advocates submitted written testimony that
13 focused on some of the economic and
14 demographic challenges that impact housing in
15 New York's rural communities. We also offer
16 our thoughts about some of the ways our
17 not-for-profit community can contribute to
18 addressing these challenges.
19 At the top of our list is the
20 Rural Preservation Program. It's at the top
21 because RPP provides the platform from which
22 we deliver a whole array of state and federal
23 housing and community development programs.
24 RPP funds pay for the research and the
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1 planning. It pays for the community building
2 work that precedes every grant. It pays for
3 the writing of the grants and for the
4 reporting that comes at the end of a program.
5 When New York invests in rural
6 preservation, it's buying powerful and
7 flexible organizational capacity. We've
8 often spoken of the ways these locally
9 governed organizations are able to tailor
10 their work programs to the specific needs of
11 communities. That same flexibility and
12 resourcefulness positions RPCs to respond to
13 unforeseen events.
14 I can't tell you how many RPCs we have
15 worked with who have responded to floods --
16 big floods, little floods, tornadoes,
17 ice storms, hurricanes, and fires. They are
18 able to bring their general housing and
19 community development skills to bear to focus
20 resources and mitigate these crises because
21 you have invested in their basic capacity,
22 and for that we and the communities we serve
23 thank you.
24 In the FY 2024 State Budget you were
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1 able to return RPP borrowing power to the
2 level that it had back at the turn of the
3 century, back in 2000. The revised funding
4 levels allowed Rural Preservation Companies
5 to begin catching up and rebuilding old
6 capacity.
7 Unfortunately, and quite predictably,
8 the Governor is proposing to return the
9 program to historic funding levels. We're
10 here to ask you to find a way to sustain
11 those levels of funding.
12 We understand the difficult budget
13 decisions you face. We also understand that
14 our funding comes through some kind of funky
15 streams. But we are grateful for your past
16 support, and we ask for your continued
17 support and to fund RPC at $7.86 million this
18 year.
19 Thank you.
20 (Overtalk.)
21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
22 MR. SEBASTIAN: It's the end of the
23 day. We're the last slot.
24 (Overtalk.)
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1 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Senator May.
2 SENATOR MAY: Thank you.
3 And thanks for your testimony. And I
4 want you to know, as chair of the Legislative
5 Commission on Rural Resources, we are
6 fighting to put these programs back in the
7 budget. I'm very concerned about many of the
8 cuts that you highlighted.
9 I also want to say last year I think
10 was the first time I ever heard the term
11 "rural homelessness," and at first I thought
12 it was an oxymoron. But it is a real thing.
13 And you didn't mention that, but is -- would
14 you -- how large a problem would you call
15 that?
16 MR. SEBASTIAN: It's a large problem,
17 and it's invisible. You know, I ran Rural
18 Preservation Companies in Western New York.
19 We encountered folks living in barns, living
20 in -- there was a sawmill up the road from
21 our office that knowingly left boards
22 flapping on the back because there were a
23 handful of local fellows who were living in
24 the mill at night and wandering the streets
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1 during the day.
2 And they're a particular challenge
3 because they're -- often you find folks who
4 are not particularly comfortable living in
5 traditional sort of living environments.
6 SENATOR MAY: Sure.
7 MR. SEBASTIAN: So we offer housing,
8 and it isn't particularly attractive to
9 folks. So some of this is imagining ways to
10 allow particularly rural homeless people who
11 have kind of this independent streak that
12 comes with characters like that to be
13 comfortable.
14 It is a big problem. Families -- we
15 did a -- years ago in the Adirondacks we were
16 looking at census data with the folks from
17 one of the RPCs up there, and there were
18 these anomalies that nobody could figure out,
19 why we had more families than housing units.
20 We found mobile homes with partitions through
21 the middle of them --
22 SENATOR MAY: Wow.
23 MR. SEBASTIAN: -- with a front door
24 and a back door.
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1 SENATOR MAY: So let me interrupt for
2 the last minute and ask about mobile homes,
3 because we had a conversation earlier about
4 the idea that maybe instead of replacing
5 mobile homes, if people owned the land --
6 building actual brick-and-mortar homes would
7 be a better way to proceed because it would
8 help people build equity.
9 Do you want to, in 30 seconds, comment
10 on that?
11 MR. BORGES: Well, I think, you know,
12 there are like 1800 mobile home parks in the
13 state. And I think there's like over 100,000
14 manufactured housing, making up 10 percent of
15 the housing stock in rural communities. So
16 mobile homes and mobile home parks are an
17 essential affordable housing option for
18 owner-occupied residents.
19 So, yes, the cost of replacing a
20 mobile home now has risen to the point where
21 it's $150,000, $180,000. Which is why we
22 have a bill with Senator Mannion in the
23 Senate, and I think it's Assemblywoman
24 Barrett, Didi Barrett in the Assembly, to
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1 replace that program and raise the amount
2 that could be used to replace the mobile
3 homes from $100,000 to $200,000.
4 So yeah, modular homes or mobile homes
5 or stick-built homes -- we need all kinds of
6 housing in rural communities, and we need you
7 to do more. The state needs to do more to
8 preserve the housing stock that we do have,
9 because we have very old housing stock and
10 dilapidated housing stock.
11 SENATOR MAY: Thank you.
12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
13 We go to Assemblywoman Rosenthal.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Thank you.
15 And thanks for sticking around.
16 I know a lot of what we talked about
17 sounded like it centered on the city,
18 New York City. But, you know, as a city
19 person I have been educated by all of you
20 over the past year and really believe that
21 you need many more resources.
22 We can't forget about you, you're all
23 struggling there to maintain your home in New
24 York State and contribute to society. And we
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1 can't leave you in the lurch, so we're going
2 to fight for more funding for all of you.
3 And thank you.
4 PANELISTS: Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
6 So thank you to this panel for being
7 here.
8 So just before we conclude the Housing
9 hearing, I just want to thank my cochair,
10 Senator Liz Krueger, for all of the budget
11 hearings; my cochair today for the
12 Housing hearing, Senator Kavanagh; and our
13 ranker on Ways and Means, Assemblyman Ra, and
14 Senator O'Mara.
15 So this concludes the -- not only the
16 Housing budget hearing, but all of the budget
17 hearings for the '24-'25 Executive Budget,
18 until Senator --
19 SENATOR KAVANAGH: And I would be
20 remiss if I did not also thank our Ways and
21 Means Chair Helene Weinstein, who I had the
22 pleasure of serving with for many years in
23 the Assembly, for all of her work over many
24 of these hearings -- and everybody who
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1 testified today. We really appreciate your
2 input.
3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.
4 (Whereupon, the budget hearing
5 concluded at 5:26 p.m.)
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